# NEW YORK | Penn Station Overhaul



## bodegavendetta

This piece from 2nd Ave Sagas is spot on, imo. 

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2016/0...empire-station-complex-plan-for-penn-station/



> In what I believe was the last day of Cuomo’s whirlwind State of the State preview tour that had him criss-crossing New York to announce various infrastructure upgrades, Cuomo announced two plans of dubious origin yesterday. The first is the bone he threw to upstate politicians who had asked for “parity” with regards to the MTA’s five-year capital plan. The state will, for some reason, spend $22 billion on upstate roads. It is ironically and appropriately called the PAVE NY plan, and it certainly isn’t parity. Considering the economic impact of such spending, the state would have to spend around $50-$60 billion on the MTA to create true parity. That was the appetizer though.
> 
> The governor returned to Manhattan early on Wednesday afternoon to announce an initiative that could usher in a completely overhauled Penn Station as early as 2019 — when Cuomo is still likely to be governor. The new plan looks suspiciously similar to the Moynihan Station proposal that’s been gestating for three decades, but it now bears the moniker of the Empire Station Complex, which is not, I’ve been told, Kylo Ren and Snoke’s plan for a replacement for the Starkiller Base. Rather, it is the start of Cuomo hopes is a $3 billion public-private partnership to usher in a “world-class transportation hub” for New York City. Considering our experiences with the other transportation hub at the World Trade Center site, you’ll have to excuse me if I don’t jump for joy.
> 
> In presenting this plan, Cuomo managed to praise Robert Moses for “designing for the future” in creating “much of the highway and parks system we still depend on.” You can spend 1000 words unpacking that statement and Cuomo’s intentions alone. Rather, though, let’s talk about what the Penn Station renovations do and what they do not do.
> 
> First, they certainly look nice. By shifting the main terminal to the Farley Post Office building site, the plans create a European-style sunlight waiting room with higher ceilings and an overall better passenger experience (less the avenue block walk from the IRT trains) than one currently enjoys at Penn Station. It solves what Cuomo identified as a major problem with Penn Station. “Penn Station is un-New York: it is dark, it is constrained, it is ugly, it is dated architecture, it is a lost opportunity. Travelers are relegated to a bleak warren of corridors,” he said. “Frankly, it’s a miserable experience, to cut to the chase, and to really cut to the chase, it is a terrible introduction to New York.”
> 
> *But to “fundamentally transform” Penn Station, Cuomo has seemingly forgotten the transit options*. His plan:
> 
> _Penn Station Redevelopment: The existing Penn Station facility, which lies beneath Madison Square Garden and between 7th and 8th Avenues, will be dramatically renovated. The project will widen existing corridors, reconfiguring ticketing and waiting areas, improve connectivity between the lower levels and street level, bring natural light into the facility, improve signage, simplify navigation and reduce congestion, and expand and upgrade the retail offerings and passenger amenities on all levels of the station. The new station will include Wi-Fi, modernized train information displays and streamlined ticketing.
> 
> Several design alternatives will be considered, including major exterior renovations involving 33rd street, 7th avenue, 8th avenue, and/or Madison Square Garden Theater…
> 
> Farley Post Office Redevelopment: As part of the Governor’s proposal, the Farley Post Office, which sits across 8th Avenue from Penn Station, will be redeveloped into a state-of-the-art train hall for Amtrak, the new train hall, with services for passengers of the Long Island Rail Road, New Jersey Transit and the new Air Train to LaGuardia Airport. The train hall will be connected to Penn Station via an underground pedestrian concourse, and increase the station’s size by 50 percent. At 210,000 square feet, the train hall will be roughly equivalent in size to the main room at Grand Central Terminal. The new facility will offer more concourse and circulation space, include retail space and modern amenities such as Wi-Fi and digital ticketing, and feature 30 new escalators, elevators and stairs to speed passenger flow. The Governor’s proposal also calls for an iconic yet energy-efficient architectural design._
> 
> Cuomo presented the proposal with an aggressive timeline. He wants companies to bid on it within 90 days, and as I mentioned, he wants it built within three years. It’s clear this is something he wants to see through as governor. In fact, as The Times reports today, a behind-the-scenes agreement among New York State, Related and Vornado nearly came to fruition last year, but the negotiations simply took too long. Cuomo is now opening up the process so that development companies can bid on parts — that is, only the 7th Ave./33rd St. half or only the Farley rebuild — or all of the renovations at once. Vornado and Related are expected to be involved in the bidding, and Extell and Brookfield will be as well.
> 
> Considering we all know that Penn Station is an ugly mess of a train station that doesn’t serve as a particularly alluring gateway to New York City, what, you may wonder, are the objections to this project?* Simply put, it is another multi-billion-dollar expense that, by itself, doesn’t do anything to solve the region’s real problem of transit capacity.* Amtrak’s CEO Joe Boardman stated that the Penn Station overhaul is “setting the stage for the future expansion of rail service and ridership that will be made possible by the Gateway Program,” but without a firm commitment to build the Gateway Tunnel, the Penn overhaul is nothing more than lipstick on a pig.
> 
> And so we arrive back at the problem that Cuomo’s plan is a lot of flash without much substance. *Despite promises to build the tunnel in his presentation, we still don’t know what the future holds for Gateway, and nothing Cuomo has said over the past few days of infrastructure press conferences has changed that reality. Gateway exists as an idea with some momentum and vague commitments to reach a funding agreement. There are no dollars flowing, no timelines, no studies, no shovels.* Much as the World Trade Center PATH Hub was a $4 billion expense to create a shopping mall, so too might the $3 billion plan to overhaul Penn Station. And the sad part is that for those $7 billion in building expenses, we could have had a new trans-Hudson tunnel sooner rather than later.
> 
> Of course,* if Gateway materializes, the Penn Station overhaul will be a welcome element of a revitalized midtown transit-scape, but we’re talking multi-billion-dollar, decade-long if’s. Cuomo won’t be in office to cut that ribbon, and supporting a project he won’t be around to see through will take leadership he hasn’t shown yet.*


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## yankeesfan1000

Long Island said:


> Since the garden is already well established. It would make more sense to build the train station in the abandoned post-office, rather than demolish a newly renovated arena, demolish a post office, and build two new buildings.
> 
> *Whats the difference if the new station is a block west?*


It's physically impossible to do this. You can't just pick up and move an entire train station, the track configuration won't allow it. 









http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2011/02/07/arc-revived-as-the-amtrak-gateway-project/

MSG's well established nature is irrelevant, even if it were, I would argue if anything it's known for being a subpar arena and if you want to bring in a structures established image and persona, Penn Station is known for being one of the worst train station on the continent. The bottom line is that the Dolan's spent billions doing a renovation knowing that their lease on the site was about to expire, that's their problem, not the problem of the 650,000 commuters a day who have to use Penn.


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## Riley1066

You'd think the needs of the 650,000 Commuters would overrule the needs of the 19,000 Arena-goers above them.


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## mrsmartman

I really like the direct approach when they built the original station. That's American.

*EDIT:*
Penn is capable of through routing. But cost issues affect its viability.


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## Riley1066

mrsmartman said:


> I really like the direct approach when they built the original station. That's American.
> 
> *EDIT:*
> Penn is capable of through routing. But cost issues affect its viability.
> Btw, will Penn South be the NEC/NJT terminal?


I think Amtrak traffic will be in Penn South and the West Concourse of the Farley Expansion.


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## Nexis

Riley1066 said:


> You'd think the needs of the 650,000 Commuters would overrule the needs of the 19,000 Arena-goers above them.


Sadly greed and corruption overrule those 650,000 commuters..


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## solgoldberg

ReNaHtEiM said:


> Well, but that doesn't make it pretty.


Renderings should look nice: you're selling the sizzle not the steak.

This August 2015 photo by Jeremiah Cox show the "cooking of the (current) steak)", namely some of the seen-by passengers reality of the current "West End Concourse" expansion. AFAIK, this project is supposed to wrap in 2016:











More here:http://subwaynut.com/updates/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/20-50-03.jpg


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## Riley1066

Closer look at what the West End Concourse Exits/Entrances will look like:


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## Riley1066

Larger view of the Farley Building Courtyard transformed into a train platform:
















The Courtyard as it exists today:


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## Long Island

Riley1066 said:


> You'd think the needs of the 650,000 Commuters would overrule the needs of the 19,000 Arena-goers above them.


Those 19,000 arena-goers bring in billions of dollars in revenue. There is an event in the Garden almost every night. Most of them take the train into Penn to see the event right up stairs. Do you really want to lose that income to Jersey....again? 

MSG stays!!!


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## yankeesfan1000

The idea that on a pure tax revenue comparison, MSG is comparable to Penn Station is a joke. In basic terms, you're saying 19,000 arena attendees generate the same amount of tax revenue for the city paying exclusively sales taxes on beer and hot dogs, as roughly 650,000 office workers who pay sales taxes as well as city income taxes. 

The final nail in the coffin for that argument is that MSG hasn't paid property taxes since the mid 1970's. Who said anything about Jersey? 

Want to give it another try?

MSG is a dump. Bring on the bulldozers.


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## Nexis

Just move it a few blocks south to the postal processing center...its still close enough to Transit and then rebuild the station as a functioning hub. Around a million people will use the station by 2030...and in its current station it cannot handle anymore even with these changes. MSG would have to be removed and the whole station rebuilt and expanded to boost capacity.


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## Riley1066

Long Island said:


> Those 19,000 arena-goers bring in billions of dollars in revenue. There is an event in the Garden almost every night. Most of them take the train into Penn to see the event right up stairs. Do you really want to lose that income to Jersey....again?
> 
> MSG stays!!!


Again I bet the 650,000 people spend more than the 19,000 do. And I think the roof of Javits is where MSG should go anyway.


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## ThatOneGuy

ReNaHtEiM said:


> Well, but that doesn't make it pretty.


It gives a reason to preserve/restore it. Then it'll be pretty :cheers:


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## Long Island

yankeesfan1000 said:


> The idea that on a pure tax revenue comparison, MSG is comparable to Penn Station is a joke. In basic terms, you're saying 19,000 arena attendees generate the same amount of tax revenue for the city paying exclusively sales taxes on beer and hot dogs, as roughly 650,000 office workers who pay sales taxes as well as city income taxes.
> 
> The final nail in the coffin for that argument is that MSG hasn't paid property taxes since the mid 1970's. Who said anything about Jersey?
> 
> Want to give it another try?
> 
> MSG is a dump. Bring on the bulldozers.


I don't need to give it another try. The plans clearly show the MSG is staying put. Whether you like it or not no bulldozers are coming to The Garden. 

And I'll continue to enjoy games there for decades to come.


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## Nexis

Long Island said:


> I don't need to give it another try. The plans clearly show the MSG is staying put. Whether you like it or not no bulldozers are coming to The Garden.
> 
> And I'll continue to enjoy games there for decades to come.


I doubt it will be for decades ...eventually they will move..


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## Urbanmusician

If they demolish MSG, hopefully a new arena will be build somewhere in Manhattan.


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## 1WTC

Is anyone else sad MSG isn't getting demolished? I mean that building is some 60's era trash. I think more people would want to go to games if they built a new stadium. I sure would.


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## yankeesfan1000

Long Island said:


> I don't need to give it another try. The plans clearly show the MSG is staying put. Whether you like it or not no bulldozers are coming to The Garden.
> 
> And I'll continue to enjoy games there for decades to come.


What you're not getting is the lease is the key here. The Governor has zero control over that, the people who do have control over it, the New York City Council, want MSG gone. Plain and simple. Just because the Governor proposes a refurbishment of Penn Station doesn't mean that that's actually what's going to get built. He still has to go through city agencies to do all this.


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## storms991

Long Island said:


> I don't need to give it another try. The plans clearly show the MSG is staying put. Whether you like it or not no bulldozers are coming to The Garden.
> 
> And I'll continue to enjoy games there for decades to come.


Clearly, our friend Long Island is biased due to support for the Rangers and a sentimental attachment to MSG. Completely understandable, yet illogical - relocating MSG is definitely an idea worth considering. 

It was wrong to build the arena in the first place.


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## Weissenberg

1WTC said:


> Is anyone else sad MSG isn't getting demolished? I mean that building is some 60's era trash. I think more people would want to go to games if they built a new stadium. I sure would.


I'd say MSG has some sentimental value, it's been home for the Knicks/Rangers for decades now. It'll be demolished some day and it won't be the first time the Garden's being moved. Believe it or not, this is how the 2nd Garden looked like (though it was before the Knicks/Rangers even existed):


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## Hudson11

1WTC said:


> Is anyone else sad MSG isn't getting demolished? I mean that building is some 60's era trash. I think more people would want to go to games if they built a new stadium. I sure would.


hmmm...


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## Riley1066

Cross Section of MSG:









If you take the Forum and Forum Lobby out, as this new Penn Station Overhaul Proposal intends to do, you can dramatically increase the ceiling heights of the station below.

You do very little to address additional train capacity, but you make the train experience much better overall, while retaining the arena above it. 

Might wanna remove the bowling alley too ... hehehehe.

I'm not saying its a perfect solution. MSG being totally relocated would be the absolute ideal.


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## droneriot

Build the Madison Cube Garden!


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## mikezippo

who is going to pay to move the garden and build it? it certainly wont be MSG.


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## Hofguy

Long Island said:


> Yes but there is a place to relocate Penn. To relocate the Garden would be much harder. We could risk losing two more teams to New Jersey. NYCFC cannot find a place in the 5 Burroughs to build a new arena how will the Rangers and Kicks be more successful? Its already there and the inside is brand new. The most logical solution would be to move Penn a block west and leave the garden where it stands.


If Yankee Stadium is in the Bronx, I'm sure MSG will not be so hard to relocate. The train lines are WAY harder to move around underground compared to a basketball court and several thousand seats (above ground)


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## mikezippo

Hofguy said:


> If Yankee Stadium is in the Bronx, I'm sure MSG will not be so hard to relocate. The train lines are WAY harder to move around underground compared to a basketball court and several thousand seats (above ground)


you can say that, but MSG corp owns the land above penn station. even if the gardens permit is not renewed, doesnt mean the garden has to move. they just dont have the right to put on events there. if the city is stupid enough to let the permit not renew and then the garden doesnt have events there then they wont reap the benefits of all the tax dollars the garden generates.

if the garden is forced to move, then the govt will have to pay market value for the land and also find a place for a new garden and also probably kick in to pay for it. so where is that money coming from and where will the new building be built in manhattan (it will only be built in manhattan, the outer boros is not happening AT ALL).

first priority of business should be to make sure the new tunnel under the river is on its way to getting built. then expand track capacity, then work on major cosmetic improvements to the station. 

personally, i see the end solution as, there is a new MSG theatre in the post office, the area taken out for the theatre is a new entrance to Penn, 33rd street is closed to traffic so they can open it up and let some light into penn and the 7th avenue front between 31st and 33rd gets completely re-done and a new entrance gets put there also. the garden gets a 25 yr permit with them having to pay property tax again.


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## Riley1066

MSG should be seized through eminent domain.


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## Long Island

Riley1066 said:


> MSG should be seized through eminent domain.


You're just a hater.


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## mikezippo

Riley1066 said:


> MSG should be seized through eminent domain.


that wont happen.

but if it did, where is the money coming from to pay for the land? where is the city finding a site in manhattan that would be agreeable to MSG for the next MSG? i'll wait for your plan.

where is the $5billion going to come from?


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## scrapesalot

mikezippo said:


> if the garden is forced to move, then the govt will have to pay market value for the land and also find a place for a new garden and also probably kick in to pay for it. so where is that money coming from and where will the new building be built in manhattan (it will only be built in manhattan, the outer boros is not happening AT ALL).


Demolish the current Port Authority Bus Terminal and build a new MSG there. Relocate the PABT to Secaucus Junction Station in New Jersey. Build the new Amtrak/NJT tunnels so there is increased capacity to NYC to handle the bus passengers, and a one seat ride from Bergen County and Raritan Valley lines. Build a new Penn Station where MSG once stood, to handle the increased passenger and train volume (and replace the dungeon). Extend the 7 Train line to Secaucus Junction, to allow redundant rail service from New Jersey and an option to change at Secaucus for service to Grand Central station and the surrounding areas. 

The PABT is already due for reconstruction, and it would be a lot cheaper to build it in New Jersey. It would also remove all of those buses from the Lincoln Tunnel and surrounding streets. The "gateway" tunnels and associated corridor improvements are also due for reconstruction. The Penn Station reconstruction is also due. The only change to those plans would be relocating MSG and PABT, which, I think, would be a great plan.


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## Riley1066

mikezippo said:


> that wont happen.
> 
> but if it did, where is the money coming from to pay for the land? where is the city finding a site in manhattan that would be agreeable to MSG for the next MSG? i'll wait for your plan.
> 
> where is the $5billion going to come from?


Eminent Domain usually means little or no money changes hands in the first place.

MSG isn't worth 5 billion dollars in the first place.

I'd be surprised if more than 5 million dollars had to be spent through the Eminent Domain process.

And the whole point of Eminent Domain is to bypass terms agreeable to the obstructionist party (The Dolans).


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## Opulentus

This will never match the original Penn Station.

https://www.facebook.com/Rebuild-Penn-Station-451167241721740/


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## mikezippo

Riley1066 said:


> Eminent Domain usually means little or no money changes hands in the first place.
> 
> MSG isn't worth 5 billion dollars in the first place.
> 
> I'd be surprised if more than 5 million dollars had to be spent through the Eminent Domain process.
> 
> And the whole point of Eminent Domain is to bypass terms agreeable to the obstructionist party (The Dolans).


FAQs About the NYS Eminent Domain Procedure Law

Q: What is 'eminent domain'?

A: It is another word for condemnation - the right of the government to take private property for a public purpose. Various examples would be to make way for a road or public park, or to provide housing for disadvantaged persons. The United States and New York Constitutions require the government to pay you fair compensation if it takes your property.

Q: What is fair market value or just compensation?

A: Just compensation is usually considered to be the fair market value - that is, the highest price somebody would pay for the property, were it in the hands of a willing seller. The date upon which the value is assessed will vary, depending upon the governing law. If the parties do not agree on the value, they will typically utilize appraisers to assist in the negotiation process. If the case is litigated, both sides will ordinarily present expert testimony from appraisers as to the fair market value of the property.

so you're going to tell me that the building itself isn't worth over a billion (it just got reconstructed for that much) and the rest of the land isnt worth much? plus you know the dolans would negotiate to have the city kick in to build a new garden. so yes, $5billion.


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## mikezippo

scrapesalot said:


> Demolish the current Port Authority Bus Terminal and build a new MSG there. Relocate the PABT to Secaucus Junction Station in New Jersey. Build the new Amtrak/NJT tunnels so there is increased capacity to NYC to handle the bus passengers, and a one seat ride from Bergen County and Raritan Valley lines. Build a new Penn Station where MSG once stood, to handle the increased passenger and train volume (and replace the dungeon). Extend the 7 Train line to Secaucus Junction, to allow redundant rail service from New Jersey and an option to change at Secaucus for service to Grand Central station and the surrounding areas.
> 
> The PABT is already due for reconstruction, and it would be a lot cheaper to build it in New Jersey. It would also remove all of those buses from the Lincoln Tunnel and surrounding streets. The "gateway" tunnels and associated corridor improvements are also due for reconstruction. The Penn Station reconstruction is also due. The only change to those plans would be relocating MSG and PABT, which, I think, would be a great plan.


im sorry - but that plan makes no sense whatsoever. the point of taking a bus into port authority is that you'll be in manhattan. who would want to take a bus to somewhere in jersey and then transfer to a train? i wouldnt and im sure most commuters weren't either.


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## Riley1066

mikezippo said:


> FAQs About the NYS Eminent Domain Procedure Law
> 
> Q: What is 'eminent domain'?
> 
> A: It is another word for condemnation - the right of the government to take private property for a public purpose. Various examples would be to make way for a road or public park, or to provide housing for disadvantaged persons. The United States and New York Constitutions require the government to pay you fair compensation if it takes your property.
> 
> Q: What is fair market value or just compensation?
> 
> A: Just compensation is usually considered to be the fair market value - that is, the highest price somebody would pay for the property, were it in the hands of a willing seller. The date upon which the value is assessed will vary, depending upon the governing law. If the parties do not agree on the value, they will typically utilize appraisers to assist in the negotiation process. If the case is litigated, both sides will ordinarily present expert testimony from appraisers as to the fair market value of the property.
> 
> so you're going to tell me that the building itself isn't worth over a billion (it just got reconstructed for that much) and the rest of the land isnt worth much? plus you know the dolans would negotiate to have the city kick in to build a new garden. so yes, $5billion.


The fact that the Dolans were stupid enough to spend billions on MSG doesn't mean its worth billions in an eminent domain procedure.


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## yankeesfan1000

mikezippo said:


> im sorry - but that plan makes no sense whatsoever. the point of taking a bus into port authority is that you'll be in manhattan. who would want to take a bus to somewhere in jersey and then transfer to a train? i wouldnt and im sure most commuters weren't either.


People are transferring from bus to train anyway at PABT now, they're taking the bus in and then taking the subway to elsewhere in the city, as the area around the PABT doesn't have the high concentration of jobs that East Midtown or the Financial District has. 

I just don't see much of a difference between taking a bus into PABT and say transferring to the ACE to get to your office on Wall St, vs taking a bus into a new PABT in NJ, taking a train to the current site of the PABT (which means no traffic heading into one of the most congested urban cores in the world - Manhattan), and then transferring to the ACE. 

Plus, the current PABT handles 8000 buses a day, so if you build a tunnel you'd be getting literally thousands of buses a day off the streets of again, one of the most congested urban centers in the world. Moving the complex to NJ seems like a slam dunk idea.


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## scrapesalot

mikezippo said:


> im sorry - but that plan makes no sense whatsoever. the point of taking a bus into port authority is that you'll be in manhattan. who would want to take a bus to somewhere in jersey and then transfer to a train? i wouldnt and im sure most commuters weren't either.


But, the reason you're on a bus is because you don't have access to a Midtown train line. If the bus dropped you off at a train station, wallah, access! And for other Bergen county residents closer to rail lines, the train can be made more palatable with a one seat ride. 

The Lincoln Tunnel is at capacity. The streets surrounding PABT are at capacity. PABT is at capacity. The only logical solution to the capacity issues is constructing PABT outside of the capacity-limited infrastructure of Manhattan, and shuttling the bus patrons into Manhattan by rail (arguably, with better points of access once you're there). It would be cheaper to build in NJ, and it would allow for future service expansion. Reconstructing PABT does nothing to solve the Lincoln tunnel capacity issues. You can only shoehorn so many busses through it.


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## Urbanmusician

Even people might not like MSG's architecture, it's definitely the most famous indoor arena of the world. I've always found its Midtown location, within skyscrapers "cool". 
Why not build a new, bigger MSG and new Penn station?


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## KenfromJersey

Riley1066 said:


> The fact that the Dolans were stupid enough to spend billions on MSG doesn't mean its worth billions in an eminent domain procedure.


In eminent domain law there is a concept known as "trade fixtures", which is usually defined as anything essential to the operation of the business utilizing the property being taken that is bolted to the floor (or otherwise can't be moved). Also, it's an all-or-nothing thing. If one thing is a trade fixture, than everything is. So, if the taking is ruled a trade fixture case, the municipality doing the taking is on the hook for every trade fixture in the building. What this means is that if the City/State/County/etc. wants to take MSG they are going to have to pay for every seat, every TV (including the big, custom ones in the scoreboard), every piece of furniture in the luxury boxes, every seat in the stands, the backboards, every deep fryer in the concession stands, the hockey nets, and every light hanging in the arena. If it's in MSG, they'll have to pay for it. Now remember, everything isn't worth what the Dolans could or should of spent, but what the fixture is actually worth. No matter how stupidly they spent their money.

Also, here's the thing about trade fixture cases. They can take a loooooong time. Some even take decades. Considering how much stuff is in MSG, a long trial is very probable. Which means whoever is doing the taking has to pay lawyers to litigate the whole mess for how ever long it takes. Plus, they are on the hook for interest starting at the date of the taking to the end of the entire trial. There's also the danger that if the Dolans take them to court and get a "significant" (as ruled by the judge) amount over what the initial offer is, they're on the hook for the Dolan's lawyers, and the Dolans will hire VERY expensive lawyers. 

There is also the legal principle of "highest and best use", which means they have to pay for the land for its most financially productive use, not what it's currently used for. What's several acres of land in Midtown Manhattan, sitting on top of the terminal for 2 commuter lines and stations for 3 subway lines worth? Considering the land is probably zoned for a pretty big building, I'm guessing a lot.

My point being is that if MSG gets taken in eminent domain, billions is a pretty good estimate of what it will cost.


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## 1WTC

Riley1066 said:


> Javits is as big as any Convention center needs to be. That Queens idea would have gotten Cuomo in so much legal trouble anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> People coming to NY for Conventions don't want to be shunted off to Queens anyway. They want Manhattan. Javits is in Manhattan.



Welcome to the age of the internet, where we now have no need for convention centers.


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## ophizer

Riley1066 said:


> Javits * 1) is as big as any Convention center needs to be. * That Queens idea would have gotten Cuomo in so much legal trouble anyway.
> 
> * 2) People coming to NY for Conventions don't want to be shunted off to Queens *anyway. They want Manhattan. Javits is in Manhattan.


1) um, no
2) people coming to NY are coming to NY, people coming to a convention will go anywhere that convention is....not like other citys are in the habit of putting their convention centers/staditums in the center of the city


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## Teslatron

Riley1066 said:


> Javits is as big as any Convention center needs to be.


No its not. Even Detroit has a bigger convention center than NYC. The one in Chicago is *3 times as big*! I am at Javits every year for NYCC, Javits simply can't handle the crowds at all. Every year everyone is pissed that its too crowded and the lines to use the facilities are HUUUGE. They literally need to double the convention floor at Javits to host NYCC properly, and that ain't happening. Nor can NYC get any decent conventions like any other world city, simply because Javits is a second rate center, so most conventions go to cities like Vegas or Dubai or China instead. NYC simply can't compete right now, because Javits is trash.


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## mrsmartman

_The Northeast Corridor (NEC)_, *the only premier high speed line in America*, links Boston to Washington DC passing through New Haven, New York, Newark, Trenton, Philadelphia, Wilmington and Baltimore – a total of 363 miles.

(C)RailSimulator.com










*Acela and the Empire State Building together represented on one picture!* Taking this shot and others at this location awarded me the pleasure to be hassled by a MTA employee. He was annoyed that I was taking pictures here. I had to explain him that it is fully legal, but he was still willing to take me to some MTA office down in Penn Station. Which I refused and there was nothing he could do about it. Railfan hassle has become a real pain everywhere. But talking about New York, it is the worst you can imagine. On the same week, I have also been asked not to take pictures on platforms in Grand Central, which is also not illegal. Coming back to the picture above, it is a Southbound Acela leaving Penn station. The picture is shot in the short open air section west of Penn Station, between 9th and 10th avenues. The building on the right of the picture above the tracks is the back of the James A. Farley Building, New York City's General Post Office. Signs in front of it announce the coming of Moynihan Station at this location, a much needed redevelopment of the cramped Penn Station in favor of a grander station. The project has been debated since 1999, and the works have not started yet.

Jean-Marc Frybourg
April 25, 2008

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=233057


----------



## mrsmartman

*Pennsylvania Railroad GG1 leaves Penn Station, New York, 1960s*










Traveling westwards towards New Jersey. The 9th Avenue bridge is over the tracks in the background. In the distance is the top of the Empire State Building. See earlier post on the GG1.

http://transpressnz.blogspot.hk/2013/03/pennsylvania-railroad-gg1-leaves-penn.html


----------



## Riley1066

Teslatron said:


> No its not. Even Detroit has a bigger convention center than NYC. The one in Chicago is *3 times as big*! I am at Javits every year for NYCC, Javits simply can't handle the crowds at all. Every year everyone is pissed that its too crowded and the lines to use the facilities are HUUUGE. They literally need to double the convention floor at Javits to host NYCC properly, and that ain't happening. Nor can NYC get any decent conventions like any other world city, simply because Javits is a second rate center, so most conventions go to cities like Vegas or Dubai or China instead. NYC simply can't compete right now, because Javits is trash.


But ... wait ... people say that Convention Centers in General are wastes of money AND that Javits is too small? 

I think the two "facts" would cancel each other out. Who cares if Chicago's CC is 3x as big if the whole concept of Convention Centers is wrong-headed in the first place.

Better to have a "slightly smaller than ideal" Convention Center that loses a small amount of money then a huge one that wastes even more real estate.

I've been to the New York Auto Show at Javits Center on multiple occasions and I fail to see how that event is "cramped". Its a simply enormous building regardless of what is "bigger" than it elsewhere.

Sounds to me like Javits is, as I said, as big as New York City needs. Doubly so if we stack the new Madison Square Garden on top of it in the 2020s.


----------



## JohnFlint1985

Riley1066 said:


> Javits is as big as any Convention center needs to be. That Queens idea would have gotten Cuomo in so much legal trouble anyway.
> 
> People coming to NY for Conventions don't want to be shunted off to Queens anyway. They want Manhattan. Javits is in Manhattan.


Right across from Javits there is an old pier where there was a talk that new MSG will be relocated. Or maybe another idea is to build MSG and Javits on top of it. All in all one or two of these will be gone from Manhattan within 10-15 years.


----------



## JohnFlint1985

Nexis said:


> *Read more about various NEC Proposals here : *


very nice. though do they have the money?


----------



## Teslatron

Riley1066 said:


> But ... wait ... people say that Convention Centers in General are wastes of money AND that Javits is too small?
> 
> I think the two "facts" would cancel each other out. Who cares if Chicago's CC is 3x as big if the whole concept of Convention Centers is wrong-headed in the first place.
> 
> Better to have a "slightly smaller than ideal" Convention Center that loses a small amount of money then a huge one that wastes even more real estate.
> 
> I've been to the New York Auto Show at Javits Center on multiple occasions and I fail to see how that event is "cramped". Its a simply enormous building regardless of what is "bigger" than it elsewhere.
> 
> Sounds to me like Javits is, as I said, as big as New York City needs. Doubly so if we stack the new Madison Square Garden on top of it in the 2020s.


NY Auto Show is not a big convention. Not even close compared to NYCC at least.


----------



## Tower Dude

JohnFlint1985 said:


> very nice. though do they have the money?


at $20-$290 Billion? With this congress? :lol:

hno: It's a shame really, they're screwing the country out of it's future.


----------



## mrsmartman

- edit: irrelevant


----------



## solgoldberg

Tower Dude said:


> at $20-$290 Billion? With this congress? :lol:
> 
> hno: It's a shame really, they're screwing the country out of it's future.


***Purely a joke attempt ***
But perhaps soon-to-be-president Trump will build something modern and classy! And have somebody else pay for it...


----------



## skyscraperhighrise

solgoldberg said:


> ***Purely a joke attempt ***
> But perhaps soon-to-be-president Trump will build something modern and classy! And have somebody else pay for it...


That's right.


----------



## browntown

Tower Dude said:


> at $20-$290 Billion? With this congress? :lol:
> 
> hno: It's a shame really, they're screwing the country out of it's future.


To be fair $290 Billion is a complete joke for a high speed rail line. There are 1000 better uses of that money.


----------



## Tower Dude

Welcome to the Northeast nothing is cheap or on the level for that matter.


----------



## mrsmartman

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-york-budget-idUSKBN0UK22720160106


----------



## dfiler

I wonder how the price per square foot affects viability of convention centers. Are they capable of paying as much as office space or high end residential? Perhaps they're more viable in less expensive city centers than Manhattan. Thoughts?


----------



## mrsmartman

http://www.mgrreporting.com/notable-cases/


----------



## towerpower123

Cool! That will give those northern lines the same direct midtown privileges as the western and southern lines without a transfer.


----------



## Nexis

mrsmartman said:


> http://www.mgrreporting.com/notable-cases/


Thats the outdated ARC Plan...


----------



## ophizer

lipstick on a pig 
really once you have seen the Vishaan Chakrabarti proposal hard to accept anything else (other than rebuilding the original)....Cuomo go home!!
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/09/30/opinion/penn-station-reborn.html?_r=2


----------



## streetscapeer

^^ it's not an "either, or" situation


----------



## Riley1066

streetscapeer said:


> ^^ it's not an "either, or" situation


Yeah if you do both you can radically expand the capacity of the complex to handle more volume of passengers.


----------



## ophizer

streetscapeer said:


> ^^ it's not an "either, or" situation


not if these half assed measures are gonna cost 2 billion


----------



## streetscapeer

ophizer said:


> not if these half assed measures are gonna cost 2 billion


It's not a half-assed measure, it's a necessary growth of Penn Station complex. The immediate complete overhaul that you want will cost many, many billions more (and is coming, just in a staggered manner)


Moving Amtrak from Penn station has to help alleviate some congestion. 
Widening the new LIRR concourse at 33rd Street to three-times its current 25 feet (which will also have higher ceilings) has to alleviate some congestion 
Having LIRR platform access from Moynihan has to alleviate some congestion 
Having some LIRR go to Grand Central with East Side Access has to alleviate some congestion 


Once again the negative nancies have come out the woodwork to complain about every positive incremental change that isn't a complete overhaul. A complete redesign of Penn is coming, hold your horses. In the meantime, these projects do will help tremendously and will be necessary to handle future growth anyway.


----------



## Fabio1976

Will be reopened the Gimbels passageway ?

http://observer.com/2014/01/reopen-the-forgotten-hilton-passageway/


----------



## ophizer

streetscapeer said:


> It's not a half-assed measure, it's a necessary growth of Penn Station complex. The immediate complete overhaul that you want will cost many, many billions more (and is coming, just in a staggered manner)
> 
> 
> Moving Amtrak from Penn station has to help alleviate some congestion.
> Widening the new LIRR concourse at 33rd Street to three-times its current 25 feet (which will also have higher ceilings) has to alleviate some congestion
> Having LIRR platform access from Moynihan has to alleviate some congestion
> Having some LIRR go to Grand Central with East Side Access has to alleviate some congestion
> 
> 
> *Once again the negative nancies have come out the woodwork to complain *about every positive incremental change that isn't a complete overhaul. A complete redesign of Penn is coming, hold your horses. In the meantime, these projects do will help tremendously and will be necessary to handle future growth anyway.


:cripes:


----------



## kony

wow the old Pensylvania Grand Station looked ABSOLUTELY wicked, too bad it was partially destroyed...Thank you ERBSE for posting those old pictures !!

but that new mall/station look promising...but gosh it's about time !!

I have a photo i took of the old post office when i visited NYC in spring 2014, and that photo says MOYNIHAN STATION Phase 1 opening 2016...

i didn't follow all the latest developments but i understand there has been some politics/juridics battles around this...now they plan opening in 2020 ? sad...


----------



## towerpower123

Doew anyone know when Moynihan Station Phase 1 (the new Amtrak entrance) is supposed to open? I could have sworn it was supposed to open before New Year's.

Also, with regards to the rest of the project, in order to do the complete overhaul we are all dreaming about, they need to detour the stations 600,000 daily passengers somewhere else. The station is already 3 times over capacity so closing sections of it to rebuild it will be a massive hassle.


----------



## bodegavendetta

towerpower123 said:


> Also, with regards to the rest of the project, in order to do the complete overhaul we are all dreaming about, they need to detour the stations 600,000 daily passengers somewhere else. The station is already 3 times over capacity so closing sections of it to rebuild it will be a massive hassle.


Well the East Side Access will take some 250,000 people away from Penn to Grand Central which will help. But otherwise yeah it's kind of up in the air.


----------



## JohnDee

They should just stop with the half ass measures and go ahead with a full rebuild of Penn and move the garden over to the Javitz site. Build a new Javitz in Queens on the railyards there, the current one is too small as it is. I hope they don't go ahead with the current plan, it is not good enough. However, what do I care, i may never even go there.


----------



## Riley1066

JohnDee said:


> They should just stop with the half ass measures and go ahead with a full rebuild of Penn and move the garden over to the Javitz site. Build a new Javitz in Queens on the railyards there, the current one is too small as it is. I hope they don't go ahead with the current plan, it is not good enough. However, what do I care, i may never even go there.


Keep the current Javits Center, just deck over Javits from 37th Street to 41st Street and put the new MSG on that deck ...


----------



## Long Island

Riley1066 said:


> Keep the current Javits Center, just deck over Javits from 37th Street to 41st Street and put the new MSG on that deck ...


No matter how many times you pitch that plan it makes no sense. Economically , logistically, or feasibility. The Javits center was never designed to have a "Metal deck" built on top of it. And as I said so many times, it makes more sense to move a train station one block west then demolish and build two new buildings.


----------



## Riley1066

Long Island said:


> No matter how many times you pitch that plan it makes no sense. Economically , logistically, or feasibility. The Javits center was never designed to have a "Metal deck" built on top of it. And as I said so many times, it makes more sense to move a train station one block west then demolish and build two new buildings.


If they can deck over Hudson Yards they can deck over Javits I think ...


----------



## germantower

The best they could do is to relocate the Javits and MSG to the railyards in Queens, build a nice park to the creek, and integrate court square with the convention center and arena. This would attract more developers and the whole area could benefit. 

Meanwhile, erect smaller buildings at the Javits centre site to balance out the huge HY towers and integrate them more into the fabric of the city and erect a megatall on the MSG site, replace the horrible Pens. Hotel with the 15 Penn tower. They could also recreate the grid at the Javits site.

The railyards in queens are also only 5 stops away with the N train or maybe 10 minutes from Times square, and it´s just a 300m walk down there from Queensboro Plaza, and there are a lot of other subway stations around that could take people to virtually everywhere in the city. You also have JFK and LGA close by. 

Both boroughs would benefit and it would transform both to a better version of themselves.


----------



## Long Island

Riley1066 said:


> If they can deck over Hudson Yards they can deck over Javits I think ...


A childish fantasy.:lol:


----------



## mrsmartman

*New High-Tech Big Board At Penn Station Experiencing Technical Difficulties*



RAPHAEL POPE-SUSSMAN said:


> It’s only been a few weeks since Amtrak took down the legendary old-school "Big Board" of arrival and departure times at Penn Station and the new digital system has already gone on the fritz.
> 
> Commuters reported Friday morning that the system, which features a series of smaller screens distributed around the terminal, briefly stopped working, leaving them to fend for themselves/look at their phones/ask other humans for help IRL.
> 
> Some, or at least one, were calling the meltdown the "Big Board Blackout."
> 
> ...












Source: https://twitter.com/jpketterer/status/832614942176063489/photo/1










Source: https://twitter.com/bkleinNYC/status/832617731434348544/photo/1

Read more: http://gothamist.com/2017/02/17/big_board_blackout_of_17.php


----------



## towerpower123

They had a huge and very loud vacuum machine while they were removing debris and scooping it into dumpsters. It seems interior demolition is underway!


----------



## Christi69

Very good news! It seems the project is really begining!


----------



## germantower

This will be so much better than the curremnt awful Penn Station. It will be a graceful entry for many tourists who arrive here for the first time from JFK. Imagine they raze MSG and replace it with a gigantic Megatall tower, you are sitting at the steps of the new Penn Station and you gaze on the tower.  That would be nice.


----------



## mrsmartman

PRR only built a pair of North River Tunnels but two pairs of East River Tunnels. Probably a pair for NEC through operations and a pair for LIRR terminal. Other PRR trains terminated at Exchange Place, NJ. The addition of other commuter railroads from NJ to NY Penn Station contrary to original design caused most of congestion today. It is hoped that East Side Access project will relieve NY Penn Station from its current capacity constraint.


----------



## mrsmartman

*Work to begin this spring on Penn Station-Moynihan Train Hall complex*



6sqft said:


> This spring, the 650,000 commuters who travel through Penn Station daily may finally start to witness Governor Cuomo’s $1.6 billion plan to revamp what he called the “overcrowded, decrepit and claustrophobic” station into a more spacious and high-tech transit hub. As the Daily News reports, the first phase of the overall Moynihan Station Development Project will begin soon, extending Penn Station’s West End Concourse to reduce congestion. The second phase will transform the James A. Farley Post Office into the new Moynihan Train Hall, which will hold more than 112,000 square feet of retail and 588,000 square feet of office space, in addition to new ticketing and waiting areas for Amtrak and Long Island Railroad passengers...


Read More: https://www.6sqft.com/work-to-begin-this-spring-on-penn-station-moynihan-train-hall-complex/


----------



## JohnDee

It's happening. NYC will soon be rid of its embarrassing train station. Woo!


----------



## germantower

^^ Yeah, the current Penn Station is awful. I wonder how this along Manhattan West will transform the neighborhood. I can imnagine that a lot of property around has huge amounts of air rights left, which might result in more tower being build there.


----------



## mrsmartman

*The pros and cons of privatizing Penn Station, explained*



> Who can do a better job running New York's cramped, confusing and congested Penn Station? A private company, a consortium between two commuter railroads and Amtrak, or just Amtrak?
> 
> The current relationship must change, in which Penn Station's landlord, Amtrak, owned by the federal government, makes major decisions even though it runs fewer trains than tenants NJ Transit and the Long Island Rail Road, experts and public officials said.
> 
> "We're stuck with something set up with poor foresight in 1976," said Martin Robins, director emeritus of the Voorhees Transportation Institute at Rutgers University. "We have been living with the results and commuters have been suffering for more than 40 years."
> 
> ...


Read More: http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf...ns_of_privatizing_penn_station_explained.html


----------



## Riley1066

No privatization should occur ... ever ...


----------



## mrsmartman

M II A II R II K said:


> A 3-Part Plan to Rebuild New York's Old Penn Station
> 
> 
> May 4th, 2015
> 
> By ERIC JAFFE
> 
> *Read More:* http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/05/a-3-part-plan-to-rebuild-new-yorks-old-penn-station/392261/


Source: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=216940


----------



## ThatOneGuy

They should totally rebuild it.


----------



## 809anthony

it's not going to happen!


----------



## 112998

The biggest disaster of the 60s mindset. A beautiful building, maybe the most beautiful train station of the world, torn down by a fking box. What a shame if it would never be rebuild


----------



## RegentHouse

Riley1066 said:


> No privatization should occur ... ever ...


As long as New York City and state are run by clueless liberal pigs, enjoy the same mediocrity under government control. British and Japanese railways were privatized, and look what has been accomplished in the last few decades.


----------



## Christi69

British railways are very expensive -even with high ridership- and Japanese railways -although ridership is also very high- make their profit mostly from the land they have been given on which they built malls, offices and housing. It is quite therefore difficult to compare situations.


----------



## mrsmartman

We should be aware that Farley Post Office was not designed to be a train station.


----------



## Taller Better

RegentHouse said:


> clueless liberal pigs


Seriously?? Please tone down the rhetoric.


----------



## UrbanImpact

RegentHouse said:


> As long as New York City and state are run by clueless liberal pigs, enjoy the same mediocrity under government control. British and Japanese railways were privatized, and look what has been accomplished in the last few decades.


Right Wingers could care less about about transit other than highways and cul-de-sacs. hno:


----------



## JMGA196

112998 said:


> The biggest disaster of the 60s mindset. A beautiful building, maybe the most beautiful train station of the world, torn down by a fking box. What a shame if it would never be rebuild


Don't forget Singer Building being replaced with an generic black "international" box. 

I know it's very unlikely, but if they somehow rebuild old Penn Station, it would one of the best decisions ever made in the history of architecture.


----------



## RegentHouse

Christi69 said:


> British railways are very expensive -even with high ridership- and Japanese railways -although ridership is also very high- make their profit mostly from the land they have been given on which they built malls, offices and housing. It is quite therefore difficult to compare situations.


Amtrak is already expensive, even with the NEC competing successfully with domestic flights. American rail companies make their profit from freight, but if incentive and/or less government in the way exists, they would be willing and able to reintroduce passenger service, either of their own or taking over the respective Amtrak routes.



UrbanImpact said:


> Right Wingers could care less about about transit other than highways and cul-de-sacs. hno:


False. We want things done properly like the private sector did when they first built our railroads and grand stations, and the government has and likely will never been able to do it as the main stakeholder.

If the left in NY cared about transit, they wouldn't be rebuilding LGA with its runways which aren't long enough for the airplanes it serves, and instead sell or lease the land to fund an expansion of JFK and/or EWR to accommodate the flights. If the left cared about transit, they would work with Trump, who is pro-transit, instead of parroting false Russian conspiracy bullshit on CNN all day, because their beloved Hildabeast didn't win, who by the way, helped create many these blunders from poor leadership and corruption.


----------



## UrbanImpact

RegentHouse said:


> Amtrak is already expensive, even with the NEC competing successfully with domestic flights. American rail companies make their profit from freight, but if incentive and/or less government in the way exists, they would be willing to reintroduce passenger service, either of their own or taking over the respective Amtrak routes.
> 
> 
> 
> False. We want things done properly like the private sector did when they first built our railroads and grand stations, and the government has never been able to do it as the main stakeholder.
> 
> If the left cared about transit, they wouldn't be rebuilding LGA with its runways which aren't long enough for the airplanes it serves, and instead sell or lease the land to fund an expansion of JFK and/or EWR to accommodate the flights. If the left cared about transit, they would work with Trump, who is pro-transit, instead of parroting baseless Russian conspiracy bullshit on CNN all day, because their beloved Hildabeast didn't win, who by the way, helped create many these blunders from poor leadership and corruption.


hno:

Yes, i'm sure Republicans would be ok with democratic leadership appropriating the funds for rebuilding our nations airports, railways, and funding the necessary mass transit that is needed. :lol:

You're obviously a nutter and in the Trump cult. hno:


----------



## RegentHouse

^^"I'm not denying a couple Republicans are at odds with Trump, but if you believe Democrats get stuff done other than pork barrel "muh legacy" pet projects, you must be a nutter. Remember all those Obamabucks which disappeared for "shovel-ready projects?"


----------



## WillBuild

This is not the politics thread. Let's keep it about Penn station development news.


----------



## LouDagreat

One of the things I see every time I head into the current Penn Station to take the LIRR is the rampant homelessness. That's something that often gets ignored. Sure the infrastructure is decrepit, there's constant delays, heating is awful, it feels cramped and claustrophobic, but one thing about Penn that's jarring but always overlooked are the dozen or so homeless people, drunk, drugged or passed out. 

I hate to sound cynical, but I don't think that's gonna change with this new station. As shiny as the New Penn looks in these renders, add in some homeless people, and it will look like shit real fast irl.

Alas, that's New York.


----------



## towerpower123

Mercenary said:


> So will all of LIRR Trains and Amtrak now use Moniyahan Station once its completed?
> 
> And Penn station be relegated to New Jersey?


This reaches the same platforms as Penn Station, just the western end of them. It is primarily a new entry to the existing station.


----------



## mrsmartman

towerpower123 said:


> This reaches the same platforms as Penn Station, just the western end of them. It is primarily a new entry to the existing station.


This project is pretty cost effective. How many passengers will be shifted to GCT when ESA is completed?


----------



## mrsmartman




----------



## germantower

What about connecting the E-train all the way down to JFK and create an uninterrupted service from JFK via Penn to the WTC? This would make going from and to JFK much more convinient.


----------



## H.Stromberg

germantower said:


> What about connecting the E-train all the way down to JFK and create an uninterrupted service from JFK via Penn to the WTC? This would make going from and to JFK much more convinient.


Yeah! In fact I wonder why this is not running already . Woudn't be an incredible improvement for both JFK AND WTC? From your office DT Manhttan to the gate. Unbeatable.


----------



## mrsmartman

*Penn Station's West End Concourse finally opens to the public*
_It marks the first phase of the transformation of the James A. Farley Post Office building_



Curbed said:


> Following a few delays, Penn Station’s West End Concourse has finally opened to the public, NY1 has learned. Part of the overall revamp of the much-reviled station, the West End Concourse connects the James A. Farley Post Office Building to Penn Station, underground...












Read More: https://ny.curbed.com/2017/6/15/15807744/penn-station-west-end-concourse-post-office


----------



## mike1115

H.Stromberg said:


> Yeah! In fact I wonder why this is not running already . Woudn't be an incredible improvement for both JFK AND WTC? From your office DT Manhttan to the gate. Unbeatable.


After building the Air Tran I don't picture them undercutting their own service with something cheaper.


----------



## JohnDee

germantower said:


> What about connecting the E-train all the way down to JFK and create an uninterrupted service from JFK via Penn to the WTC? This would make going from and to JFK much more convinient.


I don't think the subway can go into JFK. it would also take a heck of a long time from WTC if it did.

Better to use airtrain tracks and have a new non stop service using lirr line from penn.

For WTC, it would require new tunnel for a decent trip time.

Path to ewr will be the better cheaper option for WTC airport access.


----------



## webeagle12

mike1115 said:


> After building the Air Tran I don't picture them undercutting their own service with something cheaper.


This... !


----------



## mrsmartman

Source: nj.com


----------



## nyr94cup

H.Stromberg said:


> Yeah! In fact I wonder why this is not running already . Woudn't be an incredible improvement for both JFK AND WTC? From your office DT Manhttan to the gate. Unbeatable.


E Train already runs from NY Penn to WTC. The Trade Center is the terminus for the E train downtown. As far as JFK goes, anyone whether beginning their trip on PATH, NJT, LIRR, Amtrak, MTA subway, Metro-North etc can switch to any LIRR train at NY Penn or Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn that stops at Jamaica Station, where AirTrain JFK can take you to the airport. www.mta.info


----------



## WillBuild

germantower said:


> What about connecting the E-train all the way down to JFK and create an uninterrupted service from JFK via Penn to the WTC? This would make going from and to JFK much more convinient.


Have a look at this RPA document on various options for one seat rides. From curbed:



> The options are as follows:
> 
> AirTrain Connection: Connect the AirTrain to the LIRR mainline at Jamaica, creating a one-seat ride from Penn Station and Grand Central to JFK.
> 
> LIRR Airport Express: Extend the unused Rockaway Beach Branch LIRR line in Queens into the airport, and run service from Penn Station or Grand Central along the LIRR mainline to the branch line.
> 
> 2nd Ave Subway Extension to Airport: Extend the Second Avenue subway to Brooklyn and connect to the airport using the Atlantic and Rockaway Beach rights-of-way.
> 
> 3rd Avenue Express: Connect a new rail line along Third Avenue in Manhattan through the Atlantic and Rockaway Beach rights-of-way as part of a larger transformation of the region’s rail network.
> 
> Super Express: Construct a new rail right-of-way, most likely a tunnel, between Manhattan and the airport.




Even extending the E over the existing Airtrain tracks has complex issues, such as platform length and curvature of the track in the JFK loop. But it certainly would be huge improvement over that depressing subway station at Sutphin Blvd.


----------



## WillBuild

One other suggestion for a one seat ride from the JFK terminals to Penn using the LIRR tracks. Reported by politico, but based on a study back in 2001 during Airtrain design. This, too, would require East Side Access to free up capacity at Penn.



> The consulting firm studied 40 different alternatives for a one-seat ride to the airport and recommended one: a train that could run on Long Island Railroad tracks from Penn Station to Jamaica, where it would mount a flyover that does not yet exist and continue on the AirTrain's light rail network to J.F.K.
> 
> ...
> 
> "Obviously with East Side Access there is additional capacity to get into Manhattan," said M.T.A. spokesman Adam Lisberg. "But what that that is going to do to train capacity and scheduling is still too soon to say."
> 
> The consultants estimated the whole thing would cost $361 million, in 1999 dollars.
> 
> “Now that they’re doing Newark, they should at least do the flyover,” said Moss


----------



## mrsmartman

The Grand Central Terminal was built as the best railroad terminal in the world but its capacity was permanently constrained by its terminal layout.

The Pennsylvania Station was built as the through station of the Cross Manhattan Railroad and its construction required razing several city blocks, causing some disruptions to the neighborhoods.


----------



## mrsmartman

The above New York Penn Station track map highlights one of the most complex interlockings on the Northeast Corridor – A Interlocking – the critical sorting mechanism that routes trains entering and exiting Penn Station from the Hudson River tunnels and the Long Island Rail Road’s West Side Yard across 21 tracks. A Interlocking, the area shaded in orange, is where the infrastructure renewal work will take place this summer.

Source: https://media.amtrak.com/new-york-penn-station-infrastructure-renewal-program/


----------



## mrsmartman

*Penn Station Repair Work Ahead of Schedule After First Week*
_Officials remain focused on completing work by Labor Day_



The Wall Street Journal. said:


> An eight-week program of extensive repair work to tracks at New York Penn Station, which has disrupted the lives of tens of thousands of commuters, is running slightly ahead of schedule.
> 
> Amtrak’s chief operating officer Scot Naparstek said during a conference call Friday afternoon that the national passenger railroad has completed all of its...


Read More: https://www.wsj.com/articles/penn-station-repair-work-ahead-of-schedule-after-first-week-1500059180


----------



## Riley1066

Work is apparently going "slightly ahead of schedule."

225294731



> During the weekend of July 7-9, 2017, Amtrak engineering forces work to replace track panels (ties, rail and switches) in "A" interlocking, an area of tracks and switches that serves as the crucial sorting mechanism routing trains that enter Penn Station from the Hudson River tunnels and the Long Island Rail Road’s West Side Yard to the various tracks and platforms in the station.
> 
> This time-lapse video captured just over 48 hours of work.


----------



## Mercenary

Riley1066 said:


> Work is apparently going "slightly ahead of schedule."
> 
> 225294731


Damn, they got a lot done in 2 days. At their pace they can finish in 2 weeks.

Why is it taking 2 months for this work?


----------



## MrAronymous

Still using wooden ties?


----------



## mrsmartman

^^ Wooden ties are more quiet than other materials.


----------



## MrAronymous

But aren't as durable, which could be more important considering this is Penn Station and all..


----------



## wirawan

looks neat :bowtie:
wish can have this one in Indonesia



mrsmartman said:


>


----------



## mrsmartman

*Memories of Penn Station*



ALEXANDER D. BLUMENSTIEL said:


> *To the Editor:*
> 
> Re “Penn Station Now and Always,” by Zach Gross (Op-Ed, nytimes.com, July 10): In the 1940s, my father was contracted to decorate New York’s Pennsylvania Station for Christmas. Seventy-two years have passed, but I remember his taking me with him and his crew when I was 4.
> 
> He pulled his trailer, piled with wreaths, roping and the other decorations he had created, down the ramp to the plaza between the Seventh Avenue subway and what was then the U.S.O. His crew unloaded the trailer, lugged the decorations into the main station, climbed and hung the wreaths and roping from the iron columns into the hushed vastness, with me asleep on a burlap bag of spare princess pine...


Read More: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/24/opinion/memories-of-penn-station.html










A layered image of Penn Station showing both past and present. _Credit Zach Gross for The New York Times_


----------



## mrsmartman

*Penn Station as a Dining Destination? Yes, Really*



The New York Times said:


> “I think Penn Station’s great,” Mark Rouse said.
> 
> “It’s awesome. It’s fantastic,” said Tim Craft of the food at Penn Station...


Read More: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/nyregion/penn-station-east-coast-subs.html










Will Whitworth serving food at Penn Station East Coast Subs to Kevin Lubwama, from left, Ethan Mulira and Wasswa Mulira in Cincinnati on July 18. _Credit Andrew Spear for The New York Times_










A Philadelphia cheesesteak with fries at a Penn Station East Coast Subs. _Credit Andrew Spear for The New York Times_










Jeff Osterfeld is the founder of Penn Station East Coast Subs, which has grown into a chain of more than 300 outlets in 15 states. _Credit Andrew Spear for The New York Times_










A Penn Station East Coast Subs in Columbus, Ohio. Neither New York nor New Jersey have the food chain, despite having Penn Station train terminals. _Credit Andrew Spear for The New York Times_


----------



## mrsmartman

*Man Threatened to 'Kill All the Americans' in Penn Station, DA Says*



DNAinfo said:


> MANHATTAN — A Staten Island man was arrested for threatening to "kill all the Americans" in Penn Station, prosecutors said.
> 
> Mohamed Nasar, 37, was riding in a car outside 2 Pennsylvania Plaza about 12:20 p.m. when he signaled to a passenger in another car to roll down his window Monday, according to the Manhattan District Attorney's Office...












Mohamed Nasar was arrested for threatening to massacre Penn Station straphangers, officials said.

Read More: https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20...man-arrested-kill-americans-penn-station-nypd


----------



## mrsmartman

*Penn Station project shows Amtrak's efficiency, and need for infrastructure investment*



philly.com said:


> I am a loyal Amtrak rider. And I am proud of it. That’s why I am pleased to see that, in spite of great initial fears, the Infrastructure Renewal Program underway at New York City’s Penn Station has been going smoothly.
> 
> The Renewal Program consists of Amtrak removing the equivalent of six football fields’ worth of track and installing new track and switches all before Labor Day. That’s no small feat. The mere thought of it — and the possible disruption that some thought would occur — caused New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo to dub it “the Summer of Hell.” I am pleased to see that several weeks into the program, the governor’s prediction has not come true, thanks in large part to the planning by Amtrak in conjunction with Long Island Railroad and New Jersey Transit...


Read More: http://www.philly.com/philly/opinio...d-for-infrastructure-investment-20170809.html


----------



## mrsmartman




----------



## JohnDee

mrsmartman said:


>


It's pretty good. Nice building conversion and I'm sure Amtrak/LIRR passengers will be looking forward to this.


----------



## streetscapeer

https://twitter.com/rbl1910


----------



## mrsmartman

According to the above photographs, the contractors have already removed the second floor of the post office. Was it funded by the state?


----------



## streetscapeer

Tectonic


----------



## mrsmartman

*Penn Station to add porta potties during bathroom renovations*



New York Post said:


> Amtrak plans to renovate Penn Station’s notoriously disgusting bathrooms by the end of the year — but to do so, it will have to bring in portable toilets, officials said Friday.
> 
> Amtrak officials have not yet decided whether to start with refurbishing the men’s rooms or the women’s rooms.
> 
> But either way, the men’s rooms will be shut down all at once — forcing the portable toilets on male travelers for the duration — and the women’s rooms when it’s their turn...


Read More: http://nypost.com/2017/09/08/penn-station-to-add-porta-potties-during-bathroom-renovations/


----------



## Riley1066

Those bathrooms are another level of horrible.


----------



## Mercenary

The renovated washrooms will get bad again.

The reason they are so horrible is that homeless people use those washrooms to clean themselves.

Is there any mechanism in place to stop them from using it?


----------



## cincobarrio

Mercenary said:


> The renovated washrooms will get bad again.
> 
> The reason they are so horrible is that homeless people use those washrooms to clean themselves.
> 
> Is there any mechanism in place to stop them from using it?


increased maintenance. barring homeless people from doing what they gotta do is cruel and will just shift the problem elsewhere.


----------



## Riley1066

Hiring washroom attendants would be a step in the right direction. Also building more public restroom facilities around the city would be a good idea.


----------



## Fabio1976

mrsmartman said:


> The above New York Penn Station track map highlights one of the most complex interlockings on the Northeast Corridor – A Interlocking – the critical sorting mechanism that routes trains entering and exiting Penn Station from the Hudson River tunnels and the Long Island Rail Road’s West Side Yard across 21 tracks. A Interlocking, the area shaded in orange, is where the infrastructure renewal work will take place this summer.
> 
> Source: https://media.amtrak.com/new-york-penn-station-infrastructure-renewal-program/


Very interesting. Therefore technically (not for the passengers...) don't the trains finish their routes at the platforms (except the first 2 platforms and 4 tracks for the NJ trains which arrive to the Penn Station)?


----------



## mrsmartman

*Amtrak and Intersection Partner to Bring Digital Screens to Amtrak’s New York City Penn Station*



MassTransitMag.com said:


> Amtrak and Intersection have partnered to bring digital innovation to New York City’s Pennsylvania Station. Intersection recently installed twelve 65-inch digital displays, marking Amtrak’s first digital expansion into the concourse of New York Penn Station. The addition of this digital infrastructure will be crucial to bringing commuters important information including emergency service announcements and generating more revenue for the Amtrak.
> 
> Serving more than 600,000 commuter rail and Amtrak passengers every day, New York Penn Station is the busiest transportation hub in the Western Hemisphere. The addition of these 12 new displays throughout the Amtrak concourse will unlock robust, dynamic opportunities for advertisers to reach a diverse and valuable commuter and visitor audience in the world’s top media market. Moreover, Amtrak passengers will benefit from real-time content and train information and emergency messaging...


Read more at: http://www.masstransitmag.com/press...screens-to-amtraks-new-york-city-penn-station


----------



## mrsmartman

*The birth, life, and death of old Penn Station*

_The story of one of NYC’s greatest architectural losses_



Curbed New York said:


> When Pennsylvania Station first opened in 1910, it was a far cry from the confusing maze of underground tunnels that it is today. The building, which covered eight acres in midtown Manhattan, was an impressive Classical gateway to New York City. The waiting room, inspired by the Roman Baths of Caracalla, had a coffered ceiling that soared 148 feet high. One descended onto sun-bathed train platforms beneath a canopy of iron and glass.
> 
> But just 54 years later, that Penn Station was demolished, replaced by the current transit hub that is undergoing a major overhaul due to its ineffective—if not downright unpleasant—design.
> 
> The original station was commissioned by the Pennsylvania Railroad, which billed itself around the turn of the 20th century as “the standard railroad of the world.”
> 
> ...


Read more at: https://ny.curbed.com/2017/11/7/16616314/old-penn-station-history-photos-mckim










The main waiting room of old Penn Station. George P. Hall and Son. Interior of Pennsylvania Station. 1911. Museum of the City of New York. X2010.11.5113


----------



## Qtya

*Next Phase of Infrastructure Renewal at New York Penn Station*

http://blog.amtrak.com/2018/01/next.../?cmp=orgsoc-1418-Facebook-PennStationRenewal


----------



## mrsmartman

*The New Penn Station: Everything You Should Know*

_Replacing NYC’s most despised transportation hub—a win for both preservationists and more than 600,000 commuters a day—could be closer to happening than we thought_



AD said:


> Rebuild Penn Station hopes to not just recreate the spaciousness and beauty of the pre-1963 hub but also improve upon it. Under the organization’s proposal, platforms would be widened and the number of escalators would be tripled, which should “vastly increase vertical circulation,” Shubow says. More platform space would allow some commuters to wait on the platform, hopefully ending the terrifying scramble riders currently engage in each time a track number is announced...
> 
> Of course, there are competing schools of thought for what should be done with the current “modernist mediocrity,” as Scully called it.
> 
> Architect Vishaan Chakrabarti, in concert with New York Times architecture critic Michael Kimmelman, has suggested a glass enclosure over a repurposed Madison Square Garden. His plan would make what Kimmelman calls “a glass pavilion, which becomes a neighborhood gathering spot.” Kimmelman suggests it would be a relatively affordable solution.
> 
> Shubow disagrees. “This is a work of technology not of art,” he says of Chakrabarti’s renderings. “It will never be iconic." Besides, New York City has enough glass buildings already in his opinion...












An illustration of the exterior of the proposed newly rebuilt Penn Station, where Madison Square Garden and the current transportation hub are now located.

Read more at: https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/new-penn-station

*Your Trusted Source of Photographs from New York and Pennsylvania*


----------



## mrsmartman

*Cuomo floats use of eminent domain for Penn Station overhaul*

_Governor vows to deliver on plan to 'restructure and rebuild' train hub_



Crain's New York Business said:


> Gov. Andrew Cuomo promised in his annual State of the State address Wednesday to cooperate with the local real estate interests in the redevelopment of Penn Station—but also raised the possibility of expropriating their property.
> 
> The governor used part of the speech in the state capitol to reaffirm his intention to "restructure and rebuild" the 50-year-old Manhattan terminal, framing it at once as a matter of cosmetics and counterterrorism. He noted that the conversion of the Farley Post Office, which sits on the opposite side of Eighth Avenue, into the Moynihan Train Hall is already underway—creating a valve to ease pressure on Penn during the refurbishment.
> 
> At one point in his speech Cuomo appeared to raise the ultimate cudgel to threaten any private interest that might hold up the process...












Commuters packed into Penn Station _Photo: Buck Ennis_

Read more at: http://www.crainsnewyork.com/articl...e-of-eminent-domain-for-penn-station-overhaul

*Your Trusted Source of Photographs from New York and Pennsylvania*


----------



## mrsmartman

*Feds to use Penn Station for bomb-detecting tests*



NEW YORK DAILY NEWS said:


> Penn Station will be the testing ground for bomb-detecting technology, months after a failed suicide bomber tried blowing up the Times Square station, Sen. Chuck Schumer announced Monday.
> 
> The U.S. Transportation Security Administration added Penn Station to its list of locations that will try out the bomb-finding system called Stand Off Explosive Detection Technology.
> 
> The TSA had been testing the tech out on Los Angeles’ Metro Center train station, as well as on NJ Transit...


Read more at: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/feds-penn-station-bomb-detecting-tests-article-1.3843649










TSA is partnering with the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority on a new device that can help officials detect whether an individual is concealing an improvised explosive device. (TSA)

*Your Trusted Source of Photographs from New York and Pennsylvania*


----------



## wakka12

mrsmartman said:


> *The New Penn Station: Everything You Should Know*
> 
> _Replacing NYC’s most despised transportation hub—a win for both preservationists and more than 600,000 commuters a day—could be closer to happening than we thought_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An illustration of the exterior of the proposed newly rebuilt Penn Station, where Madison Square Garden and the current transportation hub are now located.
> 
> Read more at: https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/new-penn-station
> 
> *Your Trusted Source of Photographs from New York and Pennsylvania*


Wow , is this actually being seriously considered? It would be a very justified reconstruction and a chance to correct a historic wrong, sin even, but would the cost be feasible? I can't imagine how much that volume of masonry would cost in 2018
Im still in disbelief such an incredibly large and beautiful building was ever destroyed, I think it took like 3 years to even just demolish.
hno:


----------



## josh85

What a stunning building it was. I would love to see it rebuilt, perhaps alongside an ultra-modern tower. Such juxtapositions are what make NYC so great!


----------



## marshalca

http://gvshp.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/penn-station-protest.jpg


----------



## Riley1066

If they build it back from scratch maybe its time to change its name from "Penn" station to Manhattan Station


----------



## Riley1066

Infuriating news:

Bearing a grudge, Trump throws a wrench into the complicated politics of Gateway


> In some alternate timeline — the one without cost overruns for transit projects and on-time delivery — New Jersey’s ARC tunnel would be opening this year. The plan to add Hudson River capacity for New Jersey Transit involved a deep-bore terminal dead-ending underneath Macy’s and was flawed from the start, but it faced solvable problems that could have been resolved. It was also funded and underway when former Garden State Governor Chris Christie pulled the plug. Although New Jersey transit advocates have convinced themselves that Christie saved the state from a mistake due to the design of ARC, in the intervening eight years, the state spent a lot of money that should have gone to transit on roads, and New Jersey Transit has withered on the vine.
> 
> As part of Christie’s ex ante rationale for canceling ARC, he challenged the region’s players to come up with a better plan, and Amtrak eventually settled on the Gateway Tunnel project, a massively costly project that would run from $20-$30 billion and involve new tunnels, new bridges and a new rail station in Manhattan. It would allow for real high-speed rail to pass through Manhattan but wouldn’t connect Penn Station and Grand Central, the Holy Grail of rationalizing New York’s regional rail problem. It was to be funded in part by New York and New Jersey and in part by the feds, but that’s when grudge politics stepped in.
> 
> The Washington Post broke the news on Friday: “According to four officials familiar with the discussions, Trump has taken a personal interest in making sure no federal dollars flow to a project that is considered critical to his hometown’s long-term economic prosperity.” That’s right: Despite earlier claims that he would hold up the feds’ end of the funding deal, President Donald Trump has decided he does not want to fund the Gateway Tunnel project.
> 
> The Post wasn’t clear on the whys and wherefores. Ted Budd, a North Carolina representative, claimed the issue was tax fairness. “North Carolina and the other 48 states should not have to foot the bill for this hall of fame earmark,” he said. But New York and New Jersey are two of the biggest net contributors to federal coffers, and even $10-$15 billion on Gateway spending wouldn’t begin to even out the northeast’s tax deficit vis-a-vis federal spending.
> 
> The Times had more and the motives seem personal:
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Trump’s opposition to the project is in part the result of his belief that it is important to Senator Chuck Schumer of New York, the Democratic leader, according to one person with knowledge of the president’s thinking on the issue. Mr. Trump has told Republicans that it makes no sense to give Mr. Schumer something that he covets — funding for the tunnels — at a time that Mr. Schumer is routinely blocking Mr. Trump’s nominees and other parts of his agenda, the person said.
> 
> 
> 
> The move has angered members of Trump’s own party, as The Times subsequently detailed:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a few months ago, the idea once again appeared to have gained the support it needed in Washington and, once again, it looks as if one powerful official — in this case, the president — could put a stop to it. The latest and perhaps most ominous threat came late Friday night when it was revealed that President Trump had asked Republican leaders to withdraw federal funding for the project.
> 
> Mr. Trump has promised to spur “the biggest and boldest infrastructure investment in American history.” So his opposition to an established project that is widely considered a solution to one of the nation’s most critical infrastructure needs has confounded even veterans of his own party. Some fear that Mr. Trump is jeopardizing commerce along the Eastern Seaboard simply to spite Senator Charles E. Schumer, the Democratic leader from New York. “If the news reports are accurate that he wants to kill it or hold it because he’s mad at Chuck Schumer, that makes no sense,” said Representative Peter King, Republican of Long Island. “This is essential to the national economy as well as the regional economy.”
> 
> He said he would not vote for a funding bill that did not include some money for the rail-tunnel project, which is known as Gateway. “I support President Trump on a lot of issues, but on this one he’s wrong,” Mr. King said in an interview on Saturday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Kathryn Wylde of the Parntership for New York City tried some odd reverse psychology that is bound to have little effect on Trump. “I have no doubt that regardless of what he says, he knows the importance of this project and he does not want it to fail on his watch,” she said, providing no evidence that the president is looking beyond personal grudges or, optimistically, horse-trading. Needless to say, the president doesn’t have a big fan base in the Big Apple and has always flown in and out of New York City. Amtrak Don he is not.
> 
> The reaction has been loud and generally in favor of Gateway. Bloomberg News delved into the economics of letting the current tunnels fail, a real reality within the next six to eight years. Gateway, the piece notes, would generate $2.16 in economic activity for every dollar spent, and not to build Gateway while risking a failure of the current tubes could be catastrophic for the country.
> 
> Another piece in Crains New York urged planners to go back to the drawing board to reduce the scope. Could a one-tube tunnel for less cost solve the problems? It seems unlikely as tunneling isn’t generally the most expensive part of these projects, and reducing the number of tubes doesn’t equate to a 50% reduction in the costly infrastructure needed for the new rail capacity.
> 
> What no one has talked about is cost control. Following the winter’s Times exposes on construction costs, Gateway is primed for an aggressive reform attempt. Were Trump operating in good faith, he would urge New York and New Jersey to tackle the reforms highlighted in the series on the New York region’s cost problems. The feds could make any grant subject to a cap and contingent on cost cutting. Based on standard international multipliers at play in New York City, the entire Gateway project would probably cost around $10 billion in even the most expensive European cities, but our version is going to carry a $20-$30 billion price tag depending upon scope. No one wants to challenge this 800 pound gorilla in the room, and Trump is operating on personal political grudges rather than a good-faith attempt at cost reform.
> 
> And so, in a way, we’re having the ARC Tunnel debate all over again. On Saturday, Josh Barro and I engaged in a back-and-forth on Twitter over this very issue. Barro argued that perhaps it’s not bad for the Gateway proponents to try to whittle down the price, and in one sense, he’s not wrong. Gateway shouldn’t be this expensive, and New York and New Jersey should be interested in cost reform so that the dollars they can get go further. But even if the states come back with a more sensible cost proposal, Trump still won’t fund the project; he wants to use this a cudgel to beat Schumer, and everyone in the region, Republicans and Democrats alike, will lose out.
> 
> As Chris Christie doesn’t deserve praise for canceling the ARC project for the wrong reasons before later stumbling into a flaw in the chosen route as an excuse, Trump shouldn’t get “credit” for bringing attention to Gateway’s costs. The decision to withhold funds for no good reason is the wrong one; the move to ignore extremely high costs is also the wrong one. But one does not excuse the other. The region needs Gateway, and to get there will require some support from Washington, DC. For now, though, we’ll keep holding our collective breaths over the battle for dollars.
Click to expand...


----------



## JMGA196

wakka12 said:


> Wow , is this actually being seriously considered? It would be a very justified reconstruction and a chance to correct a historic wrong, sin even, but would the cost be feasible? I can't imagine how much that volume of masonry would cost in 2018
> Im still in disbelief such an incredibly large and beautiful building was ever destroyed, I think it took like 3 years to even just demolish.
> hno:


Building classical architecture costs much less than most modern stuff.


----------



## wakka12

JMGA196 said:


> Building classical architecture costs much less than most modern stuff.


Really? Why? Do you have any links? Id love to hear more about this is if you know any websites or articles that go indepth about it


----------



## BoulderGrad

wakka12 said:


> Wow , is this actually being seriously considered? It would be a very justified reconstruction and a chance to correct a historic wrong, sin even, but would the cost be feasible? I can't imagine how much that volume of masonry would cost in 2018
> Im still in disbelief such an incredibly large and beautiful building was ever destroyed, I think it took like 3 years to even just demolish.
> hno:


No, that is not happening. That guy has been spamming every thread mentioning Penn Station with the architects page.

The official/actually happening project is redevelopment of the post office building across the street and improvements to the entrances around MSG:

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/6t...-penn-station-and-farley-post-office-building


----------



## germantower

Lets assume the old Penn station would still be around. Would it have enough capacity to cope with todays passenger numbers?


----------



## CCs77

germantower said:


> Lets assume the old Penn station would still be around. Would it have enough capacity to cope with todays passenger numbers?



They only tore down the headhouse and trainshed, but they used the original platforms and tracks, which continued operational during the demolition of the above ground parts of the station and during the subsequent construction of the MSG and office tower above it. In a way, the new station is the same as the old one, having the same capacity in the number of platforms. But it had much more space to move the passengers before and after boarding a train.

So, yes, it would have cope with today's passengers numbers, better than the current one, having the same capacity to move numbers of trains but more capacity to move numbers of people.


----------



## mrsmartman

*City leaders decry Cuomo administration’s ‘totally crazy’ Penn Station proposal*



POLITICO said:


> City leaders Wednesday condemned a last-minute attempt by Gov. Andrew Cuomo to claim the right to redevelop the neighborhood around Penn Station without having to conduct environmental reviews or abide by local land use laws.
> 
> New York City Deputy Mayor Alicia Glen said the proposal "allows the state to do anything they want within a very broad district," and is “totally crazy.”
> 
> “Can you imagine building four or five 100-story towers and not even doing a shadow study or a traffic study?” she asked in an interview Wednesday. ”You know, I’m not known as the biggest environmentalist in town, but Jesus Christ.”
> 
> In an effort to repair the “antiquated, substandard, insanitary” Penn Station, and its "substandard” environs, Cuomo is trying to insert language into this year’s budget that would give New York state expansive new powers to redevelop the area surrounding Penn Station. The proposal would enable the Cuomo administration to condemn, acquire or transfer property in the area surrounding Penn Station, without any legislated state or city environmental review, according to a draft proposal dated March 27 and acquired by POLITICO...


Read more at: https://www.politico.com/states/new...ns-totally-crazy-penn-station-proposal-333256










Matthias Rosenkranz via Flickr

*Your Trusted Source of Photographs from New York and Pennsylvania*


----------



## germantower

^^ I wonder what that would do with the Manhattan mall. They should certainly redevelop the Penn Hotel and also the two areas east and west of One Penn Plaza. A few buildings south of MSG sjould go too, but some are nice and could be kept. I still feel like MSG should go and be replaced with a megatall tower. The base of the tower could occipy most of the block with a train hall in it and a grande entrance area on 8th avenue or 7th.


----------



## mrsmartman

*Jared Leto performs in Penn Station, surprises fans with free tickets*

_The Thirty Seconds to Mars performer handed out 150 free tickets._



amNY.com said:


> Jared Leto of Thirty Seconds To Mars surprised New Yorkers on Monday afternoon with an impromptu acoustic performance in Penn Station and again outside Madison Square Garden.
> 
> “Look at all you crazy people out here,” Leto said to a crowd of a dozen that quickly multiplied to about 100 hovering fans. The singer was joined by a group of nine choir performers (who weren’t actually choir performers, just backup singers in themed garb) in front of the entrance to tracks 18 and 19 inside Penn’s Long Island Rail Road ticket area.
> 
> Leto performed “Walk On Water” — the first track off Thirty Seconds To Mars’ album “America,” set for release this Friday — not once, but three times for the group of unsuspecting fans who eagerly sang along...


Read more at: https://www.amny.com/entertainment/jared-leto-penn-station-1.17830360










*Your Trusted Source of Photographs from New York and Pennsylvania*


----------



## mrsmartman

*NY state budget declares Penn Station area an “unreasonable” public risk, and other shakeups*



The Architect's Newspaper said:


> After a tumultuous series of negotiations over New York State’s 2018-19 budget that came down to the wire, Governor Andrew Cuomo signed off on a finalized $168 billion bill late last Friday. While a congestion pricing plan and the removal of density caps for NYC residential developments failed to pass, sweeping changes that could preclude a state seizure of the Penn Station area have made it through.
> 
> The finalized budget provides a bevy of changes and funding initiatives that will affect New York-based architects and planners. In a move to stabilize city’s deteriorating subway system, $836 million was authorized for the MTA’s Subway Action Plan–with the requirement that the city government would have to foot half of the bill. As AN has previously reported, the money would go towards stabilizing the subway system by beefing up track work, replacing 1,300 troublesome signals, tracking leaks, and initiating a public awareness campaign to reduce littering. At the time of writing, the de Blasio administration which has repeatedly claimed that the city already pays more than its fair share, has agreed to contribute their $418 million portion...
> 
> While one controversial plan to remove Floor Area Ratio caps in future New York City residential developments didn’t make it into the final draft, another even more contentious proposal did. According to language in the final budget, the area around Penn Station has been deemed an “unreasonable risk to the public”. This formal declaration could be used in future negotiations between the state and Madison Square Garden as leverage, or even as a pretext for eventually seizing the area via eminent domain...


Read more at: https://archpaper.com/2018/04/new-york-state-budget-passes-penn-station/










NY state budget declares Penn Station area an "unreasonable" public risk, and other shakeups. New York Governor Andrew Cuomo presenting highlights of the 2018-19 budget after signing. (governorandrewcuomo/Flickr)

*Your Trusted Source of Photographs from New York and Pennsylvania*


----------



## Grizworld

I luv this idea to use the original design for penn station. I dislike Madison Square Garden. It’s dated & has to go!


----------



## UrbanImpact

Grizworld said:


> I luv this idea to use the original design for penn station. I dislike Madison Square Garden. It’s dated & has to go!


Go where? There aren't any plots in Manhattan that can handle that size of a building.


----------



## Riley1066

UrbanImpact said:


> Go where? There aren't any plots in Manhattan that can handle that size of a building.


Put it on a new Pier on the Hudson ...


----------



## mrsmartman

*New skyscrapers near Penn Station are a good idea*

_It's the ideal way to finance the station's reconstruction._



City and State NY said:


> In most cities, a politician fearing the transformation of a neighborhood into a forest of skyscrapers would describe it as being turned into Manhattan. That convenient metaphor was unavailable to New York state Sen. Liz Krueger, however, when she wanted to inveigh against legislative proposal from Gov. Andrew Cuomo that, in an early version, would have enabled the state to take over the planning of redevelopment around Penn Station, bypassing municipal control entirely. So instead Krueger said, rather confusingly, “I don’t want Singapore in the middle of Manhattan. And I certainly don’t want one person up here to be deciding whether or not we’re going to have Singapore in the middle of Manhattan with no community participation or process or local government role.”
> 
> The final legislation passed as part of a budget bill late Friday night is far less ambitious, declaring every New Yorker’s least favorite train station “antiquated, substandard, and inadequate to meet current transportation and public safety needs and present(ing) an unreasonable safety risk to the public.” It calls on the Metropolitan Transportation Authority and Empire State Development to “coordinate and consult with community leaders, business groups and federal and city government to design a solution.”
> 
> The law will facilitate a potential eminent domain claim against Madison Square Garden, strengthening the state’s hand in negotiations over the acquisition of the 5,600-seat Hulu Theater beneath the main arena. Cuomo wants to use the theater area for a new grand entrance to the station on Eighth Avenue, as part of a larger renovation. The governor says that such a claim will not likely be necessary, but it provides additional leverage in bargaining. The Penn Station budget amendment also calls for the allocation of unspecified funds to ESD for redevelopment planning...












_Penn Station_ | littlenySTOCK

*Your Trusted Source of Photographs from New York and Pennsylvania*


----------



## SydneyCarton

MSG should be rebuilt in the Bronx by Yankee Stadium. Tons of people take the subway to the Bronx after work to see the Yanks.


----------



## Long Island

SydneyCarton said:


> MSG should be rebuilt in the Bronx by Yankee Stadium. Tons of people take the subway to the Bronx after work to see the Yanks.


You act like there's empty land anywhere in The Bronx. Remember NYCFC tried to build a stadium across from Yankee Stadium, Government officials shut that down fast.


----------



## Long Island

Grizworld said:


> I luv this idea to use the original design for penn station. I dislike Madison Square Garden. It’s dated & has to go!


Dated? Have you been inside it lately? It just underwent a $1 Billion renovation. The entire interior structure was rebuilt. 

Why is everyone always after MSG when there is a giant building right across the street that can easily be turned into a fully functioning train station.


----------



## josh85

Long Island said:


> Dated? Have you been inside it lately? It just underwent a $1 Billion renovation. The entire interior structure was rebuilt.
> 
> Why is everyone always after MSG when there is a giant building right across the street that can easily be turned into a fully functioning train station.


The post office conversion is but one part of a larger overhaul that needs to be done to bring Penn Station up to standards. The reality is that MSG has to go; the only one who doesn't agree that I'm aware of is (naturally) MSG.

The Garden is in the way of what would be a massive redevelopment, including a new train station, new towers, and infrastructure updates. 

It was a huge blunder and it needs to be fixed already. Also, MSG is extremely ugly...


----------



## Riley1066

SydneyCarton said:


> MSG should be rebuilt in the Bronx by Yankee Stadium. Tons of people take the subway to the Bronx after work to see the Yanks.


No way in hell should it go there.


----------



## RegentHouse

mrsmartman said:


> *City leaders decry Cuomo administration’s ‘totally crazy’ Penn Station proposal*
> 
> 
> 
> Read more at: https://www.politico.com/states/new...ns-totally-crazy-penn-station-proposal-333256


NYC should have a ballot item in the next election (or one thereafter, assuming deadlines have passed) for residents to chose which redevelopment option they would prefer. I guarantee you they will overwhelmingly want to see the original reconstructed. Of course, this won't happen because it would kill Cuomo's et al pet project.



mrsmartman said:


> *New skyscrapers near Penn Station are a good idea*
> 
> _It's the ideal way to finance the station's reconstruction._


What's wrong with "Singapore in the middle of Manhattan?" Frankly, NYC should be more like Singapore. It's a clean and orderly, but a vibrant place. In fact, Hudson Yards takes a lot of cues from major developments in Singapore.


----------



## Long Island

josh85 said:


> Long Island said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dated? Have you been inside it lately? It just underwent a $1 Billion renovation. The entire interior structure was rebuilt.
> 
> Why is everyone always after MSG when there is a giant building right across the street that can easily be turned into a fully functioning train station.
> 
> 
> 
> The post office conversion is but one part of a larger overhaul that needs to be done to bring Penn Station up to standards. The reality is that MSG has to go; the only one who doesn't agree that I'm aware of is (naturally) MSG.
> 
> The Garden is in the way of what would be a massive redevelopment, including a new train station, new towers, and infrastructure updates.
> 
> It was a huge blunder and it needs to be fixed already. Also, MSG is extremely ugly...
Click to expand...

Because Manhattan needs another set of high-rise buildings so desperately. 

We already lost the opportunity to bring the Jets back to NYC over a decade ago, now you want to uproot 3 more teams. For what? More over priced luxury condos and office towers? 

Obviously you've never been to NY or you'd understand how passionate locals are to keep The Garden and our teams. Win or lose they sell out every game. Not to mention the countless other events that happen there through the year. MSG is a money maker for the city and sits in the perfect location. 

I guarantee when the dust settles on all this The Garden will remain standing.


----------



## Mercenary

Build a new Madison Square Garden to reclaimed land on the West Side of Manhattan near Javits Convention Center.

Demolish the current Madison Square Garden and either rebuild the old Penn Station or build the Vishaan Charakbarti's proposal.

Rezone the area around Penn Station for high-density development and create a new Business cluster with large skyscrapers so that people can work right near Penn Station like Grand Central.


----------



## wakka12

Personally Ive never even been to new york and I would donate a reasonable sum towards funding for a reconstruction of the original station, so I can only imagine how supportive new yorkers would be of it

I think there could be massive possible donations to regain such an incredibly and tragically lost architectural icon, it would become a world icon


----------



## mikezippo

Long Island said:


> Because Manhattan needs another set of high-rise buildings so desperately.
> 
> We already lost the opportunity to bring the Jets back to NYC over a decade ago, now you want to uproot 3 more teams. For what? More over priced luxury condos and office towers?
> 
> Obviously you've never been to NY or you'd understand how passionate locals are to keep The Garden and our teams. Win or lose they sell out every game. Not to mention the countless other events that happen there through the year. MSG is a money maker for the city and sits in the perfect location.
> 
> I guarantee when the dust settles on all this The Garden will remain standing.


you're speaking only like a fan. i agree with you but theres more to it than just fans not wanting the garden to move.

moving the garden will not happen until the MSG company makes its money back from the renovation and then some and the $1b renovation is outdated and they feel they need a new building. until then any dream to move the garden is just that, a dream.

no it will not be built on a pier, no it will not be built on the west side, or long island city, or in the bronx. the city and the state blew the opportunity 10 years ago to have the garden move to the farley annex.

msg owns the air rights so they will want market value for those, they'll need to come up with a site that msg finds acceptable to have a new arena built in (hint, there is none in manhattan) if they were to find a site they'd need to go thru a reviews process.. its going to take a lot of time and a lot of money. 

plus on top of that building a new penn station will not fix the real problem, they need more tunnels in the rivers and more platforms. without that building a new head house does nothing to improve the actual problems and just gives people new retail space and a space to drink coffee.


----------



## mikezippo

wakka12 said:


> Personally Ive never even been to new york and I would donate a reasonable sum towards funding for a reconstruction of the original station, so I can only imagine how supportive new yorkers would be of it
> 
> I think there could be massive possible donations to regain such an incredibly and tragically lost architectural icon, it would become a world icon


no there wouldnt, to be frank, most people dont give a shit about the old penn station.


----------



## wakka12

mikezippo said:


> no there wouldnt, to be frank, most people dont give a shit about the old penn station.


Dont agree with that at all. Youd probably have said people in frankfurt dont give a shit about their old town too and look at it now.Pretty much anyone with even a passing interest in historical architecture at all knows of it and would love if it still existed.I had heard about it long before I ever studied architecture or had an interest in architectural history. it would undoubtedly be a massive tourist attraction too


----------



## Long Island

wakka12 said:


> Dont agree with that at all. Youd probably have said people in frankfurt dont give a shit about their old town too and look at it now.Pretty much anyone with even a passing interest in historical architecture at all knows of it and would love if it still existed.I had heard about it long before I ever studied architecture or had an interest in architectural history. it would undoubtedly be a massive tourist attraction too


There is already a tourist attraction on that site, that local New Yorkers are quite enthusiastic about. it's called Madison Square Garden. They sell out nearly every event they hold, and have over 50 years of history in that building. 

You may think it's "ugly" and that's your opinion. But locals have generation of memories in that building they they are not so willing to give up for a train station. 

I pass through Grand Central quite often, it's nice to admire every now and again, if I'm not in my usual rush, or if it's not over run with homeless due to the public benches and rest rooms. 

The one thing New Yorkers don't want is another tourist trap filled with photographers clogging up our route to and from our destination. Mid-town is crazy enough then to put up with more people standing randomly taking photos, I'd lose it. 

MSG is a part of NY and I promise you no one that lives around here will be so willing to see it go.


----------



## Mercenary

Long Island said:


> There is already a tourist attraction on that site, that local New Yorkers are quite enthusiastic about. it's called Madison Square Garden. They sell out nearly every event they hold, and have over 50 years of history in that building.
> 
> You may think it's "ugly" and that's your opinion. But locals have generation of memories in that building they they are not so willing to give up for a train station.
> 
> I pass through Grand Central quite often, it's nice to admire every now and again, if I'm not in my usual rush, or if it's not over run with homeless due to the public benches and rest rooms.
> 
> The one thing New Yorkers don't want is another tourist trap filled with photographers clogging up our route to and from our destination. Mid-town is crazy enough then to put up with more people standing randomly taking photos, I'd lose it.
> 
> MSG is a part of NY and I promise you no one that lives around here will be so willing to see it go.


What are you talking about?

600,000 people pass through that horrible Penn Station every day.

It needs to be rebuilt to make it a more pleasent experience for the people travelling through it and that means moving Maidson Square Garden from Penn Station.

Logical place to situate is the West Side of Manhattan beside Javits Center.

Tearing down the old Penn Station and building this disgusting MSG on top of it was one of the greatest acts of vandalism in history and it must be corrected.


----------



## RegentHouse

Long Island said:


> There is already a tourist attraction on that site, that local New Yorkers are quite enthusiastic about. it's called Madison Square Garden. They sell out nearly every event they hold, and have over 50 years of history in that building.
> 
> You may think it's "ugly" and that's your opinion. But locals have generation of memories in that building they they are not so willing to give up for a train station.
> 
> I pass through Grand Central quite often, it's nice to admire every now and again, if I'm not in my usual rush, or if it's not over run with homeless due to the public benches and rest rooms.
> 
> The one thing New Yorkers don't want is another tourist trap filled with photographers clogging up our route to and from our destination. Mid-town is crazy enough then to put up with more people standing randomly taking photos, I'd lose it.
> 
> MSG is a part of NY and I promise you no one that lives around here will be so willing to see it go.


The majority of New Yorkers aren't going to care about MSG gone, as long as it's moved somewhere else in the city as convenient and more efficient, like next to the Javits Center, and something better is built on the site, in this case the original station.

Also, with MSG moved away from Penn Station, there would actually be less traffic concentrated in one area than tourists (and New Yorkers) taking pictures of a reconstructed station in its original architectural splendor. Your folksy argument and disregard for NYC's role as an international city doesn't hold. If anything, how about your idiot mayor addresses the homeless problem effectively instead of demanding that more "affordable" housing be forced on prime real estate?


----------



## yankeesfan1000

Long Island said:


> ...MSG is a part of NY and I promise you no one that lives around here will be so willing to see it go.


I live around here, have my whole life, and want that POS gone. 

The net benefit of Penn Station far outweigh the net benefits of MSG.


----------



## Long Island

RegentHouse said:


> The majority of New Yorkers aren't going to care about MSG gone, as long as it's moved somewhere else in the city as convenient and more efficient, like next to the Javits Center, and something better is built on the site, in this case the original station.
> 
> Also, with MSG moved away from Penn Station, there would actually be less traffic concentrated in one area than tourists (and New Yorkers) taking pictures of a reconstructed station in its original architectural splendor. Your folksy argument and disregard for NYC's role as an international city doesn't hold. If anything, how about your idiot mayor addresses the homeless problem effectively instead of demanding that more "affordable" housing be forced on prime real estate?


It's the Governor who is trying to sink his talons into MSG, not the mayor. And you act like there is just tons of empty lots laying around Manhattan Island. Sorry to break the bad news, there isn't. There is literally no place to move the arena too. Not to mention it just underwent a $1 Billion renovation. I can promise you it's not going anywhere. I'm going to enjoy Hockey and other events there for decades to come.


----------



## RegentHouse

^^The governor wants something completely different, but is in bed with the mayor and devil Schumer. I didn't necessarily mean only Manhattan when I said "city," but the western rail yard adjacent to Javits Center is the ideal site, to be incorporated into Hudson Yards Phase 2, a plan which will surely change before construction. You brought up the New York Jets, and that was supposed to be the site of their stadium and a MSG replacement, so there's a precedent. Yes there aren't swaths of empty land, rather a little thing called "redevelopment" which NYC is quite accustomed to already. Lastly, one billion dollars is chump change in this city, MSG's renovation was in 2013, and it will surely will require another major renovation after its lease is up in another five years to the extent that kicking the can down the road isn't a viable long-term choice.


----------



## webeagle12

ThatOneGuy said:


> What an amazing bridge, really hope they build that.


This is what probably will happen:

They see price tag and end up redesign it..... just like it happens with 90% of projects


----------



## Mercenary

prageethSL said:


> More space, accessibility part of $600 million Penn Station makeover


They should rebuild the original instead of doing this. Total waste in my opinion.


----------



## streetscapeer

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bve5wX5H2pd/


----------



## MrAronymous

They couldn't have hidden the roof installations in a more elegant way? Aren't they new?


----------



## prageethSL

https://ny.curbed.com/2019/5/16/1862...nce-renderings

*Penn Station’s new main entrance gets fresh renderings
** The new entrance at 33rd Street will bring light into the cramped station*












































































> With a little more than two years to go before Penn Station is transformed into the brand-new Moynihan Train Hall, some new details about the revamp are being brought to light—specifically, new renderings and specs for an entrance at 33rd Street and Seventh Avenue, which will function as the main entrance of the train depot.
> The entry, to be known officially as the East End Gateway, will lead passengers into the Long Island Rail Road concourse via an open, airy atrium with three escalators. It will be “literally the first time you will have illumination and light in that concourse in over 50 years,” according to Gov. Andrew Cuomo, who unveiled new renderings at a press conference earlier today.
> “Passengers will be able to come in that entrance and avoid the front of Penn Station, there will be less traffic and you’ll have access to the subway and the LIRR,” Cuomo said. “It will be a gateway to a world class facility. This is not a proposal—we are getting to work now.”
> 
> 
> There will be improvements above and below ground as part of the finalized plans for the entrance. At street level, there will be a new public plaza on 33rd Street—where some pedestrian-only access already exists—as well as a glass atrium with a 32-foot-tall overhang. Underground, the entrance will lead to a concourse with taller ceilings and wider floorplans—a boon for LIRR riders, who currently use one of the most cramped and claustrophobia-inducing parts of Penn Station. According to Cuomo, this particular part of the larger Penn project will cost $600 million, with part of that coming from the MTA’s capital budget. The whole Penn Station revamp is expected to cost $1.6 billion, with funds coming from a variety of private firms and state agencies. Construction on the new station is well underway, and is expected to be completed by the end of 2020.


----------



## streetscapeer




----------



## safracatz

The current Penn Station is completely underground and sits below Madison Square Garden, 33rd Street, and Two Penn Plaza. ... There is an abandoned underground hall from Penn Station to the nearby 34th Street-Herald Rectangular subway terminal, which was appreciated as "Gimbels Passageway."


----------



## mrsmartman

> *New York City's Pennsylvania Station's Tower A
> New York City, New York*
> 
> Tower A was opened on November 27th 1910 and housed a Union Switch and Signal Company Model 14 interlocking machine. The machine was the largest machine used in the station and had 179 levers. Of the 4 towers at the station this is the only machine having over 100 levers; as Tower D reached 71. Tower A had 141 levers to control the 124 signals, 15 double slip switches, and 47 switches. The tower was located above the rails, later the tower was covered by the station making it seem as though the tower was located in the ceilings of the station. In the 1940's the interlocking machine received an upgrade as the entire original wooden interlocking cabinet was replaced with the more recognized steel cabinet and steel levers replaced the original brass levers. The switch and signal indicators were also replaced from the old style of boxed lamps at the back of the machine to the modern front panels of lamps. The other 3 interlocking machines at Penn Station never got these upgrades. Tower A remained mostly intact over the years as it was busy all the time. In the 1980's the tower was given control of Bergen Interlocking and later Portal tower was closed and remoted to Tower A. The tower was manned by two train directors, an assistant train director, and two levermen. The cutover to close Tower A started on September 30th 1994 and the tower officially closed on October 1st 1994 at 2:44 Pm. Control of Tower A was given to the new Penn Station Control Center known as (PSCC). The tower still remains today above the station tracks. The interlocking machine front has been gutted and the levers have been mostly removed. The locking bed remains intact and the circuit controllers are also intact. The model board remains above the machine and dark. Power to the tower has been cut and the lights dark. A thick layer of dust and dirt cover everything inside, over the years things have been taken apart, probably kept as keep sakes. To get to the tower you have to walk up a very narrow spiral stair case then walk a narrow catwalk that goes around the tower. To most you would never even know a tower was there, but to a few it's an interesting place. Encased by the surrounding station and with the very busy tracks below, the tower is probably never going anywhere.
> 
> Source: RR SIGNAL PIX . COM


Penn Track Layout

Pictures

*Your Trusted Source of Photographs from New York and Pennsylvania*


----------



## Hudson11

Sterile white and clear glass suggesting you're about to enter a clean and modern facility. What a baldfaced lie. This is just another rat hole. We all know what it's like down there. This shiny new portal doesn't change what's underneath.


----------



## streetscapeer

^^ But isn't the underneath changing as well? 

































> The state also plans to expand the LIRR concourse from 30 feet to 60 feet and raise ceilings that are 7 to 18 feet tall.


https://www.amny.com/transit/penn-station-cuomo-lirr-1.20864637



Not saying it will look amazing like the oculus, but it will be clean and modern, and doubling of height and width will definitely help with the "rathole" feeling


----------



## Hudson11

forgive me for being skeptical.


----------



## ZARDOZ

Respectfully disagree. The President has his policy priorities, as does Senator Schumer. If I were the President, with the senior senator from New York calling me every name in the book every day of the week, fighting me tooth and nail, I suspect I would tell him to stuff it. Democrats should fund at least some of the border wall and get the Gateway Project as a fair trade. That's how things get done in DC.


----------



## Riley1066

The President should consider the needs of the Nation not the needs of his fragile ego.


----------



## streetscapeer

Hudson11 said:


> forgive me for being skeptical.


lol you're forgiven.


What are you skeptical of?

That there will be any renovation?
That, if there is, they will be clean and modern?
Or that, even being clean, modern, and doubling the dimensions, they will markedly change the "rat hole" feeling?


----------



## Hudson11

streetscapeer said:


> lol you're forgiven.
> 
> 
> What are you skeptical of?
> 
> That, if there is, they will be clean and modern?
> Or that, even being clean, modern, and doubling the dimensions, they will markedly change the "rat hole" feeling?


This. Sorry for not elaborating. I don't doubt they'll go through with this. It just seems like a wasted expenditure delaying a more permanent solution from being implemented.


----------



## streetscapeer

I can see what you mean with it seeming like a wasted expenditure that could be better spent on something grander if 2Penn and/or MSG was out of the way. 

But I disagree that doubling the width and height, with modern, brighter finishes, and expansive sight lines to the platforms won't markedly change the dingy rat hole feeling that exists there now (solve it? definitely not, not even close....noticeably improve what's there now? yes)(especially with the potential added capacity of Moynihan)


----------



## Mercenary

It still looks like shit. Man just get rid of Madison Square Garden and move it somewhere else and rebuilt this.

Just like La Guardia, you had to rebuild the whole thing from scratch. Same is required of Penn Station.


----------



## streetscapeer

I personally think the _design_ looks like rather shit, but if executed like the renderings I definitely don't see a dingy rat hole


----------



## BoulderGrad

Mercenary said:


> It still looks like shit. Man just get rid of Madison Square Garden and move it somewhere else and rebuilt this.
> 
> Just like La Guardia, you had to rebuild the whole thing from scratch. Same is required of Penn Station.


You basically just Yada yada'ed over a $billion investment by MSG by telling them to go make another $billion investment. The feeling that "plans for train station still uggo! Hmph!" is not good enough to justify that kind of expenditure. Laguardia was just replacing Laguardia, not the busiest arena in the country.


----------



## MrAronymous

He's talking eminent domain. That law is basically made for cases like Penn Station.


----------



## Hudson11

I think MSG will be left alone for quite some time with Vornado upgrading Penn Plaza. If the state were to take over the land, it would have to be for realm improvements and a megatall doesn't fit that bill. Vornado's lipstick on a pig will satisfy NYers and the Pols for the time being but eventually Penn Station will need to be further future proofed and MSG will need to be involved. In the meantime, we might be able to look towards PABT for a megatall. Vornado also plans 2 supertalls, so there's that.


----------



## WillBuild

A supertall right above the train tracks is also highly unlikely. The Hudson Yards towers were built largely on terra firma alongside the tracks. 2 Penn Plaza is where any super (or mega) tall would have to be built.

The most pragmatic improvement to the train shed seems to be to just demolish the theater that sits below MSG without destroying the arena itself.

And remove the LIRR/Amtrak dual layer.

That alone will allow in plenty of light and air and removes the sense of being stuck in a rat hole.

Main downside is that it does not allow reconfiguring the tracks, so the narrow, crowded platforms remain.

This would make for a fine station. There have been a number of such proposals over the years.


----------



## Mercenary

towerpower123 said:


> There is a massive push to force MSG to move but its owners are extremely stubborn. They just put over $1 Billion into renovating it in 2011-2013 so they are even more determined to stay to get their money's-worth out of that, not to mention the massive wealth of both city and suburban transit right underneath of them.
> 
> There is also a 29 story office tower, which although squat and rather useless compared with the massive new towers that are going up and rather outdated, it contains a whopping 1,619,000 square feet of office space, about the same as the Citigroup Center or slightly less than the Manhattan West tower on the other side of the Farley Post Office! A good proposal for something to replace Penn Station would ideally have its main entrance on the East side where that office building sits so they would have to cut through it as some proposals show or to completely remove it as the ideal reconstruction would do.
> 
> Lastly, there is the issue of logistics to even consider a massive rebuilding project. Penn Station was designed to handle 200,000 passengers a day when railroad ridership was plummeting. Today it handles about 600,000 to 650,000 riders, a number that is rapidly growing as secondary centers on Long Island and in New Jersey continue to grow rapidly around train stations. Any rebuilding project would mean cut off corridors and limited access when it is already under Crush Conditions for most of Rush Hour. Moynihan Station in the Farley Post Office, if anything, will provide capacity relief until a larger permanent solution is found for the main block of the station. Same with these rather temporary "Lipstick on a Pig" fixes. Once they are done, the new wide entrances and alternate routes will allow for some of the 1963 station to be closed for major construction work. Hopefully by then, the city and state and various business and development organizations (Municipal Art Society, Regional Plan Association, etc) will get serious about forcing MSG to move when their 10 year lease renewal expires around 2023.


2023 is a key year.

2023 is when East Side Access to Grand Central opens up which will take with it 160,000 LIRR commuters who use Penn Station.

2023 is also when MSG's current lease ends.

And by 2023, Moniyahan Station will be up and running.

So with a decrease in passengers using Penn Station, it will be an optimal time to totally redevelop Penn Station.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

Madison Square Garden is not going anywhere and it’s absolutely insane to think otherwise


----------



## streetscapeer

@michael.lee.pics.nyc


----------



## BoulderGrad

^^What's the latest on converting the theater into a new entrance? Still just a twinkle in Cuomo's eye? Did that eventually get dropped?

This plan:


----------



## streetscapeer

Just a twinkle so far, we won't truly know until few years from now when the lead for MSG is up for renewal


----------



## streetscapeer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKMAtCMu8Lw


----------



## Riley1066

Too much focus of the Moynihan Train Hall has been on office space .. they should have set aside at least a few floors for a NY Public Library branch or something similar.


----------



## shakeltown

Penn station need a deep remodelation


----------



## Nizzil

Riley1066 said:


> Too much focus of the Moynihan Train Hall has been on office space .. they should have set aside at least a few floors for a NY Public Library branch or something similar.


Maybe that could be done some day, when it's realized that Manhattan has more new office space than could ever be filled.


----------



## RegentHouse

Riley1066 said:


> The President should consider the needs of the Nation not the needs of his fragile ego.


IDK, we as a nation need a wall as part of remaining a nation as we know it, and I wouldn't trust Cuomo with a nickel. Case in point, LaGuardia. 



Long Island said:


> Lastly, it makes no sense to tear down a building just to put back something that was razed 1/2 a century ago when there is a perfect solution right across the street.


Absolutely nobody sensical is proposing to reconstruct Penn Station EXACTLY as it was originally, rather reconstruct the main architectural features while the infrastructure aspect to accommodate trains will be twenty-first century.



Riley1066 said:


> Too much focus of the Moynihan Train Hall has been on office space .. they should have set aside at least a few floors for a NY Public Library branch or something similar.


If I wanted to go to a library, I'd take the train to Bryant Park in the first place.


----------



## jamesinclair

Construction underway

20191005_140456 by J Sinclair, on Flickr

20191005_140325 by J Sinclair, on Flickr

20191005_140305 by J Sinclair, on Flickr


----------



## Nizzil

RegentHouse said:


> IDK, we as a nation need a wall as part of remaining a nation as we know it, and I wouldn't trust Cuomo with a nickel. Case in point, LaGuardia.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely nobody sensical is proposing to reconstruct Penn Station EXACTLY as it was originally, rather reconstruct the main architectural features while the infrastructure aspect to accommodate trains will be twenty-first century.
> 
> 
> 
> If I wanted to go to a library, I'd take the train to Bryant Park in the first place.


NYC is a city of 8.5 million -- it can use more than one decent public library, especially since the one at Bryant Park doesn't even have any modern facilities.


----------



## Long Island

RegentHouse said:


> Absolutely nobody sensical is proposing to reconstruct Penn Station EXACTLY as it was originally, rather reconstruct the main architectural features while the infrastructure aspect to accommodate trains will be twenty-first century.


I never said there was an expectation to put it back "EXACTLY" as it was. I said it makes no sense to build it at all. Especially since there is already a building there that is in constant use, and there is an available building across the street.


----------



## streetscapeer

@eralynnorion









@eralynnorion


----------



## GandyNewWorld

Get rid of that hideous aRena.! Build it back as it was. The original.


----------



## Mercenary

Madison Square Garden is an extremely outdated arena. Its sad that a global city like New York operates such an old dinosaur of an arena.

Its time to demolish MSG, build a new arena somewhere else and re-build Penn Station like it was before.


----------



## BoulderGrad

Mercenary said:


> Madison Square Garden is an extremely outdated arena. Its sad that a global city like New York operates such an old dinosaur of an arena.


The interior was completely rebuilt from 2011-2013. As was the roof. What exactly is out of date about it?


----------



## hateman

This is the fourth MSG, hence the name. Next stop Sunnyside, Queens.


----------



## RegentHouse

^Maintenance costs and "practical function" are mere excuses used by modernists and enablers, even when many of their beloved post-war cookie cutter buildings are plagued by energy efficiency issues, dangerous chemicals, and obsolete configurations. Meanwhile, many pre-war buildings easily have been adaptively reused, whether it be from/to hotel, office, or residential lofts.

My point was it wasn't the city's responsibility to bail out the railroad industry.


----------



## Long Island

RegentHouse said:


> ^Maintenance costs and "practical function" are mere excuses used by modernists and enablers, even when many of their beloved post-war cookie cutter buildings are plagued by energy efficiency issues, dangerous chemicals, and obsolete configurations. Meanwhile, many pre-war buildings easily have been adaptively reused, whether it be from/to hotel, office, or residential lofts.
> 
> My point was it wasn't the city's responsibility to bail out the railroad industry.


Nor is it the city's responsibility to save a building just because it's old and looks pretty. It was a money pit for it's time. They're in the process now of building something to suit the public needs. Look forward, not back.


----------



## Titan Man

Long Island said:


> Nor is it the city's responsibility to save a building just because it's old and looks pretty. It was a money pit for it's time. They're in the process now of building something to suit the public needs. Look forward, not back.


Well, the Palace of Versailles is old and looks pretty, but "useless" in this day and age, yet the French still haven't demolished it to replace it with a mall. We're not wild dogs whose only concern is to find enough food to survive and a warm place to sleep at night, we have other needs beyond basic survival. Those needs are satisfied by art, music, architecture and so on. I wonder what our civilization would look like if we would get rid of everything that's even slightly unnecessary in our time.


----------



## BoulderGrad

Are we starting the argument again over a building that was demolished 50 years ago?...


----------



## RegentHouse

Long Island said:


> Nor is it the city's responsibility to save a building just because it's old and looks pretty. It was a money pit for it's time. They're in the process now of building something to suit the public needs. Look forward, not back.


No, but it could have been protected, or at least the facade(s). It would be like what was proposed for Grand Central Terminal, which may have been more acceptable to preservationists had Penn Station not been destroyed.

Proposing to renovate an aging arena complex that will be outdated and deteriorating again in twenty years is hardly looking forward. Alas, that's New York politics. If you want to talk about subsidizing obsolete transportation, how about spending billions on a second-rate "international" airport dominated by low-distance domestic flights and runways too short for airplanes to land?


----------



## Long Island

RegentHouse said:


> bsolete transportation, how about spending billions on a second-rate "international" airport





RegentHouse said:


> No, but it could have been protected, or at least the facade(s). It would be like what was proposed for Grand Central Terminal, which may have been more acceptable to preservationists had Penn Station not been destroyed.
> 
> Proposing to renovate an aging arena complex that will be outdated and deteriorating again in twenty years is hardly looking forward. Alas, that's New York politics. If you want to talk about subsidizing obsolete transportation, how about spending billions on a second-rate "international" airport dominated by low-distance domestic flights and runways too short for airplanes to land?


Well we can discuss LaGuardia Airport on the LaGuardia thread.


----------



## Hudson11

City + Vornado draft on neighborhood redevelopment. H/T nyguy on SSP. Site 2 is yuuuge. Probably the most realistic shot at a megatall NYC has ever had. In total there are 9 new office towers.


----------



## WillBuild

It's great to see that those low rise corners of 33rd street and 7th/8th Ave are included (sites 4 and 5).

I always figured 1 Penn Plaza used up all the air rights and we would be stuck with such poor use of high value space.

Does Vornado own site 2? The plan might depend on taxpayers shelling out big money to buy out all those buildings for construction of Penn South. A boondoggle that many have argued against in favor of implementing through running.


----------



## streetscapeer

Moynihan Train Hall Progress



























Source


----------



## towerpower123

This complex is looking good. Hopefully it does not get delayed by the looming budget issues due to a complete lack of support for transit from the federal government, while airlines get tens of billions in bailouts.


----------



## Hudson11

new lights crowning 1 Penn


2020 New Zipper Lights at One Penn Plaza 1024 by Brecht Bug, on Flickr


----------



## prageethSL

*Farley gets Zucked: Facebook signs huge lease at Post Office redevelopment*














> Facebook is officially coming to the Farley Post Office redevelopment, in what is certain to be a major boost for New York’s struggling office market.
> 
> *The social media giant has signed a lease for 730,000 square feet of space *at the property, landlord Vornado Realty Trust announced Monday.
> 
> Vornado CEO Steve Roth on Monday said in a prepared statement that Facebook’s decision “reinforces New York’s position as the nation’s second tech hub.” Robert Cookson, who oversees real estate for the social networking giant, said that the company looked forward to being a part of this iconic New York City landmark’s future for years to come.”
> 
> *Facebook’s New York city office is currently located at Vornado’s 770 Broadway. The company also signed on last year for more than 1.5 million square feet nearby at Hudson Yards.*


----------



## Riley1066

abysmal tenant


----------



## Hudson11

chugging along...









Highlights: Restaurant reopening date announced, East End Gateway takes shape


After months of uncertainty and protests from industry associations and elected officials alike (City Council Speaker Corey Johnson among them), New




www.cityrealty.com























Penn 1 going full black









NYguy on ssp


----------



## ThatOneGuy

What's the point of removing its pinstripes? Got rid of its only redeeming feature.


----------



## Tower Dude

ThatOneGuy said:


> What's the point of removing its pinstripes? Got rid of its only redeeming feature.


"Shiny Black Building looks Nice" Some real estate hack with a less than textured Frontal Cortex.


----------



## prageethSL

__
http://instagr.am/p/CFr_bNEFOhW/


----------



## Hudson11

Manhattan West plaza - 2 acres between 1, 2 and 5 Manhattan West and across the street from Moynihan Station


----------



## prageethSL

credit : @audio.phile


----------



## kenersej

Hudson11 said:


> chugging along...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Highlights: Restaurant reopening date announced, East End Gateway takes shape
> 
> 
> After months of uncertainty and protests from industry associations and elected officials alike (City Council Speaker Corey Johnson among them), New
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cityrealty.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penn 1 going full black
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYguy on ssp


That sucks.... Had much more character with the visible stripes..


----------



## prageethSL

credit : johnwkane








credit:notemeryhajdu


----------



## JohnDee

I'm glad that soon people will no longer have to wait in that horrendously crowded underground rat hole when going Amtrak. The saying was something like... once they entered the city like god's, now they scurry in like little rats, yada, yada

WELL.. that's finished - now they will enter the city like Gods again.. ! 

Screw you Dolan.


----------



## prageethSL

credit:architecturalsigngroup


----------



## JohnDee

This station may be nice, but it's nothing compared to what old penn was or what could have been if they had moved MSG.. However, Dolan and others messed that up a decade ago. Screw the greedy philistine Dolan! I hope he goes out of business.

Still, on next trip to NY, I'm going to be happy to be using this thing rather than the third-world facilities that are current Penn.


----------



## prageethSL

credit : @PKMNred200


----------



## Hudson11

Apple Takes Additional 116K SF at 11 Penn Plaza


Apple inked a sublease with Macy’s to take another 116,00 square feet at 11 Penn Plaza.




commercialobserver.com







> Apple first took space in Vornado Realty Trusts 1.15-million-square-foot property in February, when it signed a sublease with Macy’s for 220,000 square feet on the 11th and 14th floors. Its new deal brings Apple’s total footprint in the building to 336,000 square feet.


----------



## JohnDee

looks good, but not good enough -- we could have had a rebuilt Penn if old Dolan had moved his arena to the back of Farley.. years ago! Again, what a greedy old philistine, he single handedly ruined the deal to move msg for selfish reasons. Shame on him!


----------



## Long Island

JohnDee said:


> looks good, but not good enough -- we could have had a rebuilt Penn if old Dolan had moved his arena to the back of Farley.. years ago! Again, what a greedy old philistine, he single handedly ruined the deal to move msg for selfish reasons. Shame on him!


Old and Tired argument. What's done is done MSG is going nowhere.


----------



## BoulderGrad

Long Island said:


> Old and Tired argument. What's done is done MSG is going nowhere.


I think that guy just goes thread to thread bringing up such arguments.


----------



## prageethSL

*Moynihan Train Hall set to open in January * 


> Amtrak's Moynihan Train Hall in the former Farley Post Office Building across from Penn Station in New York City is set to open in January 2021, Amtrak President and Chief Executive Officer Bill Flynn said this week.
> The new hall will relieve crowding and offer enhanced facilities for travelers using Amtrak and MTA Long Island Rail Road trains, Flynn said during a Nov. 23 media call regarding Amtrak's fiscal-year 2020 preliminary results.
> Amtrak and New York Empire State Development Corp. have been renovating the Farley Post Office into the train hall over the past few years.
> The new facility will feature a sky-lit atrium, dedicated rider waiting areas, a combined ticketing and baggage area, improved passenger security, accessibility for riders with disabilities, WiFi in customer spaces and a new metropolitan lounge,


----------



## prageethSL

New Penn station entrance coming alone nicely.









credit : trentreeves


----------



## JohnDee

BoulderGrad said:


> I think that guy just goes thread to thread bringing up such arguments.


Yeah, I'll post my opinion on topics i care about whenever i want, thanks. No need to be hostile.

Personally I would be astounded if an urbanist on an infrastructure forum would not be FOR replacing Penn and moving that dump MSG. Your glib dismissal of my post is telling.


----------



## JohnDee

Long Island said:


> Old and Tired argument. What's done is done MSG is going nowhere.


whatever you say buddy /s


----------



## prageethSL

Clock tower install at Moynihan train hall








Credit : sessaplastering


----------



## Long Island

JohnDee said:


> Yeah, I'll post my opinion on topics i care about whenever i want, thanks. No need to be hostile.
> 
> Personally I would be astounded if an urbanist on an infrastructure forum would not be FOR replacing Penn and moving that dump MSG. Your glib dismissal of my post is telling.


Discussing MSG should really be on the MSG thread. However, since the train station and arena are uniquely linked, I'm going to ask this here. Other than the location of MSG, what classifies the arena as a dump? As I recall they just completed a $1 billion renovation less than a decade ago.


----------



## WillBuild




----------



## prageethSL

*Coming Soon .....*
































credit:Olivier O'Mahony


----------



## Christi69

Even if it is not the "perfect" Penn Station some dreamt of, I think it is a pretty jolly renovation and a huge improvement.


----------



## Buffaboy

Sometimes I hate that I went to Tokyo... because I'm always comparing our railroads with theirs in my head

Compared to what was there before though, this is a step in the right direction for rail transport.


----------



## Sukino

Buffaboy said:


> Sometimes I hate that I went to Tokyo... because I'm always comparing our railroads with theirs in my head
> 
> Compared to what was there before though, this is a step in the right direction for rail transport.


The US used to have the best rail public transport in the world. Then came the car.


----------



## browntown

JohnDee said:


> Personally I would be astounded if an urbanist on an infrastructure forum would not be FOR replacing Penn and moving that dump MSG. Your glib dismissal of my post is telling.


It's a train station. A utilitarian piece of infrastructure than should have a utilitarian design. Personally I think NYC has already wasted far too much money with ridiculous "grand" projects like that stupid dino skeleton at the WTC or the pointless Farley Center a couple blocks away. Other cities would have been able to build an entire subway line for what NYC has wasted on a couple empty rooms. Personally, I think even this much effort is too much for Penn and trying to rebuild the old station with modern union labor would have been a massive waste.


----------



## delores

That's one opinion. Utilitarian ends up being ugly cheap and frankly dull and boring.
What's wrong with having a building that uplifts the spirit and goes beyond pure function. We are better than just an engineering solution and I'm pleased New York celebrates travel in their buildings.


----------



## browntown

Nothing is wrong with it so long as it doesn't mean wasting Billions. I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never felt the need for a train station to include massive architectural elements. Clean and functional are good enough (to be clear the current Penn Station is neither).


----------



## Hudson11

it's going to be outrageously expensive either way, you might as well make it look nice. I'm sure the vast majority of people would be more impressed by more grandiose architecture than sterile, modernist tunnels like the current Penn Station and the PATH. (the oculus is nice, the corridors surrounding it are cold and sometimes lifeless) As a rail commuter, this is the best example of taking a step back to appreciate something your money went into. You don't want to take that moment to think "*This* is what our taxes are paying for?"


----------



## prageethSL

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1336698427632128001


----------



## Long Island

Hudson11 said:


> it's going to be outrageously expensive either way, you might as well make it look nice. I'm sure the vast majority of people would be more impressed by more grandiose architecture than sterile, modernist tunnels like the current Penn Station and the PATH. (the oculus is nice, the corridors surrounding it are cold and sometimes lifeless) As a rail commuter, this is the best example of taking a step back to appreciate something your money went into. You don't want to take that moment to think "*This* is what our taxes are paying for?"


I mean some aesthetics are nice, but not the the point of absurdity. Most NY'ers are in such a rush to get where they're going on time, they seldom stop to take in the ambiance. Usually tourists do that, much to the frustrations of locals trying to make their train. 

Really most locals would want a stronger infrastructure. for example, better Trains and rails to eliminate delays, wider bridges, modern amenities. We're trying to live in a 21st century city on 19th century technology. We need to move forward, not back.


----------



## BoulderGrad

prageethSL said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1336698427632128001


This is Grand Central, Not Penn Station, no?


----------



## Fabio1976

Will there be an underground direct link between the Penn Station and the Path?


----------



## prageethSL

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1339223776567889921


----------



## WillBuild

Just raising the ceiling alone like that will reduce the infamous comparison to squirreling like a rat.

Also good to see simple classic wood panelling instead of Cuomo's earlier crazy cloud proposal.

Good sensible upgrade.

That was long overdue. Everything there is from the seventies and tired looking. I wonder if there are plans for the old Amtrak concourse now that Moynihan is about to open. Transit finances as they are, probably will have to wait.


----------



## MrAronymous

The glossy wood actually looks very dated to me. Like I stepped into a 2000s architecture magazine. Currently lighter wood is in fashion. It all depends on the finishing though, can be gorgeous if applied well.

I actually prefer the clouds. Luckily they're still there if you look close enough.


----------



## WillBuild

Ironically, Station Bijlmer ArenA is from the 2000s ;-) But agreed on your point.

Perhaps it is open grain wood vs cheap veneer that makes the difference? I hope this turns out well.

Moynihan is a good sign. It really toned down on Cuomo's instinct of making everything blue and yellow and filled with pictures of New York state sights like Montauk lighthouse. The train hall respects the classicist building. Hopefully they didn't penny pinch on the wood here either.


----------



## generalscarr

MrAronymous said:


> The glossy wood actually looks very dated to me. Like I stepped into a 2000s architecture magazine. Currently lighter wood is in fashion. It all depends on the finishing though, can be gorgeous if applied well.
> 
> I actually prefer the clouds. Luckily they're still there if you look close enough.


It's obviously a - pretty bad - rendering. Pretty sure the real wood won't look like that at all


----------



## prageethSL




----------



## Hudson11

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344315799478165504


----------



## prageethSL

Grand Opening . . .


----------



## prageethSL

Source:gothamist


----------



## Hudson11

This hall will mostly serve tourists and Facebook employees when East Side Access opens circa 2023. It looks nice, but i'm more excited for the new entrance to Penn on 33rd and the improvements underground.






"This Is A Work Of Art": Cuomo Cuts Ribbon On Light-Filled Moynihan Train Hall - Gothamist


Gothamist is a non-profit local newsroom, powered by WNYC.




gothamist.com


----------



## PsyLock

So beautiful. The entrance on 33rd actually looks better than the rendering.


----------



## CF221

Gorgeous. Great project that helps assuage the feeling of loss of Penn Station.


----------



## ThatOneGuy

Love the contrast of the old angular steel trusses and the new parametric glass roof.


----------



## prageethSL




----------



## phoenixboi08

Hudson11 said:


> This hall will mostly serve tourists and Facebook employees when East Side Access opens circa 2023. It looks nice, but i'm more excited for the new entrance to Penn on 33rd and the improvements underground.


Again, the scope of this program is larger than Farley/Moynihan: this hall serves _everyone_ because the entire premise -- and scope -- of this program is to essentially overflow ticketing/passenger services (particularly, for Amtrak, which is far more location agnostic I believe than the other operators) to Moynihan, freeing up space in the existing PSNY for drastic reshaping of the entire facility to improve circulation.

I personally think the existing facility should essentially become nothing but reconfigured concourses with many more points of egress/access to platform-level and significantly more retail and this has largely been the vision of what has become collectivized under the _Empire Station _(i.e. Farley/Moynihan + PSNY + streetscape + commercial/retail redevelopment + Gateway) moniker.

NJ Transit -- and to a lesser extent, LIRR -- don't seem to _want_ to move to Farley, which isn't great I'm led to think. Though, I do find that this won't significantly affect what can be done with reconfiguring the existing facilities.

Anyways, the intention of Moynihan has certainly been to free up space in PSNY for more sensible circulation (below taken from here, starting pg. 15). I strongly encourage you check out the Appendix (and just download the files, in case they're removed at some point), if you've never viewed these documents. I think the scope of what is envisioned has mostly been underappreciated by media -- and often in these threads. Perhaps it won't all happen, but it's included in the scope of this program.



http://imgur.com/LMID3CD














































*inb4*:_ Yes. Obviously, improving circulation is necessary and doesn't preclude any track-level work....they compliment each other._


The _Empire Station Complex_ idea is premised on pretty strong concepts, tbh. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether they'll really go ahead with Gateway-Penn South or bite the bullet of solving a lot of the track-level issues with operations modernizations (i.e. finally come up with a long-term framework for through-running services).

If we're gonna build an additional Trans-Hudson tunnel, I'm not sure why we need an extra one for PSNY; it'd make a hell of a lot more sense to connect Hoboken to midtown...but then, I'm dumb and smarter people can tell me why this is bad.


----------



## WillBuild

Great post!

Demolishing the Hulu theater would go a long way to opening up the labyrinth. The extension of MSG's operating permit is coming up soon, so the city has leverage. The 8th Ave entrance illustration shows great what can be done without removing MSG: a single, open, light-filled train hall.

Could the upper level just be consolidated? A single double height space would be a lot less claustrophobic.

Not sure whether the lower layer could handle the full traffic flow of both. It would require work on the hilton corridor, for sure.

And perhaps direct street level access to concourses. We all want to spend as little time down there as possible, anyway.

Problem is that much is funded through retail, so massively reducing retail space will not go done well. Maybe partially open up, with an upper floor mezzanine. That "illustrative view of lower level" looks encouraging.

From the same docs (thanks!):


----------



## hkskyline

Penn Staiton Entrance by Jonathan Chu, on Flickr

Penn Staiton Entrance by Jonathan Chu, on Flickr

Penn Staiton Entrance by Jonathan Chu, on Flickr

Penn Staiton Entrance by Jonathan Chu, on Flickr

Moynihan Train Hall by Jonathan Chu, on Flickr


----------



## Christi69

It is a success! I love the maps on NYC and New Jersey shores


----------



## MarshallKnight

Tomorrow's CB5 Land Use, Housing and Zoning committee meeting agenda includes "Madison Square Garden Relocation." The meeting is open to the public, and starts at 3pm Eastern. Here's the video link: Welcome! You are invited to join a webinar: Land Use, Housing & Zoning Committee Meeting - January 6th, 2021. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the webinar.

I'm definitely going to tune in, and I'm considering speaking: I'd voice my support for any plan to relocate MSG, and highlight the possibility (raised in this NYMag article and attributed to Vishaan Chakrabarti, although I can't find his original statement) of moving it one block East and North, to the site bounded by 6th Ave, 34th, 7th Ave and 32nd.


----------



## BoulderGrad

MarshallKnight said:


> Tomorrow's CB5 Land Use, Housing and Zoning committee meeting agenda includes "Madison Square Garden Relocation." The meeting is open to the public, and starts at 3pm Eastern. Here's the video link: Welcome! You are invited to join a webinar: Land Use, Housing & Zoning Committee Meeting - January 6th, 2021. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the webinar.
> 
> I'm definitely going to tune in, and I'm considering speaking: I'd voice my support for any plan to relocate MSG, and highlight the possibility (raised in this NYMag article and attributed to Vishaan Chakrabarti, although I can't find his original statement) of moving it one block East and North, to the site bounded by 6th Ave, 34th, 7th Ave and 32nd.


Even the article you linked concluded that plan would be a mess and be a giant can of worms of problems to slog through... Your request and anything else coming out of the meeting will likely be immediately be put in the round file by anyone in charge.


----------



## Long Island

MarshallKnight said:


> Tomorrow's CB5 Land Use, Housing and Zoning committee meeting agenda includes "Madison Square Garden Relocation." The meeting is open to the public, and starts at 3pm Eastern. Here's the video link: Welcome! You are invited to join a webinar: Land Use, Housing & Zoning Committee Meeting - January 6th, 2021. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the webinar.
> 
> I'm definitely going to tune in, and I'm considering speaking: I'd voice my support for any plan to relocate MSG, and highlight the possibility (raised in this NYMag article and attributed to Vishaan Chakrabarti, although I can't find his original statement) of moving it one block East and North, to the site bounded by 6th Ave, 34th, 7th Ave and 32nd.


Yes because 1 massive new train station isn't enough. They built the new train hall so they would not have to relocate MSG. It makes no sense to uproot the arena and waste billions of tax payer dollars when you have a perfectly good train hall right next door.


----------



## MarshallKnight

Well apparently I don’t have to say anything because this is exactly the proposal they’re discussing. More updates after the presentation.

Edit: The CB5 meeting is wrapping up. They just passed a vote resolving to advance this Chakrabarti proposal to the city council, and recommend the city council consider a shorter extension of MSG’s current lease tied to redevelopment of the site. In short, the proposal would involve PAU’s 2016 proposal to upcycle the current superstructure of MSG to affordably create a new station building while removing the arena interior to create a light filled hall, and relocating MSG to the site bounded by 6th Ave, 34th, 7th Ave and 32nd. The arena would be in the center of the site, with density added at the corners – Chakrabarti estimates that with appropriate zoning, the developments could yield close to $3 billion in revenue to pay for the improvements to Penn Station.

I took a lot of screenshots from the presentation by EJ Kalafarski and Vishaan Chakrabarti. Please note that these are *conceptual renderings and not actual designs.*


----------



## WillBuild

Thanks for reporting!

I'm skeptical that keeping the superstructure of existing MSG makes sense when redeveloping. And don't like how it would remind us of that turd forever.

I still expect that just removing the hulu theater will prove the most affordable, and thus taken, option.

But one way or another, this will help move things forward.

Currently watching a new york adventure club lecture on the history of Penn Station, as it happens. Recommended for the detailed pictures of the old station, alone. It is scheduled every so often.


----------



## MarshallKnight

WillBuild said:


> Thanks for reporting!
> 
> I'm skeptical that keeping the superstructure of existing MSG makes sense when redeveloping. And don't like how it would remind us of that turd forever.
> 
> I still expect that just removing the hulu theater will prove the most affordable, and thus taken, option.


You got it. There was palpable excitement from the community board. And Chakrabarti is a super compelling speaker.

I'm also not particularly thrilled with keeping the superstructure although if it's the most affordable version of a "new Penn" then I wouldn't be surprised if they go that way. If they really can generate something like $3bn in revenue from new developments, maybe they'll be able to build something iconic from the ground up, but construction costs being what they are, that would the most surprising outcome.

What jumped out at me though was that this seems like the best path for major parties such as the Dolans and Vornado to get what they want: in the case of the Dolans, a proper state-of-the-art replacement for the oldest arena in the NBA; and in the case of Vornado, a healthy return on the Hotel Penn, which they've wanted to tear down for years.


----------



## Long Island

MarshallKnight said:


> You got it. There was palpable excitement from the community board. And Chakrabarti is a super compelling speaker.
> 
> I'm also not particularly thrilled with keeping the superstructure although if it's the most affordable version of a "new Penn" then I wouldn't be surprised if they go that way. If they really can generate something like $3bn in revenue from new developments, maybe they'll be able to build something iconic from the ground up, but construction costs being what they are, that would the most surprising outcome.
> 
> What jumped out at me though was that this seems like the best path for major parties such as the Dolans and Vornado to get what they want: in the case of the Dolans, a proper state-of-the-art replacement for the oldest arena in the NBA; and in the case of Vornado, a healthy return on the Hotel Penn, which they've wanted to tear down for years.


Oldest arena in the NBA? Have you attended an event at MSG lately? Between 2011 and 2013 the arena was gutted and rebuilt, the outside walls are from 1968, but that's about it. Everything inside is less than 10 years old. To me this whole proposal is a pipe dream.


----------



## BoulderGrad

Long Island said:


> Oldest arena in the NBA? Have you attended an event at MSG lately? Between 2011 and 2013 the arena was gutted and rebuilt, the outside walls are from 1968, but that's about it. Everything inside is less than 10 years old. To me this whole proposal is a pipe dream.


If they HADN'T done the gut/rebuild renovation, I'd be much more open to listening to replacement options. But now that the arena's been brought up to modern standards, it seems like a colossal waste of money, and sort galvanizes the resistance to any redevelopment plans.


----------



## Riley1066

I wonder where the city would put a Hulu Theater replacement ... not many 5000 seat venues in town ,,,, if any others at all,


----------



## streetscapeer

Renderings of planned Penn Station renovations, from Governor Cuomo's announcement this morning

It's the space between 2 Penn and MSG and creates an atrium for light to get in.
























Source


----------



## prageethSL

This is actually rendering of the new Penn station Expansion project.



streetscapeer said:


>


----------



## WillBuild

Looks like the governor plans to let MSG stay, directly contradicting PAU's proposal.

One thing I did not understand from the PAU plan is that it claims that new development can help fund the move of MSG and rehab of the station. But moving the stadium does not change the available FAR. Developers will rather demolish that block and build tall without subsidizing MSG.

Also, those new stadium renders trigger my Port Authority Bus Terminal PTSD.


----------



## niknak

This is still my favorite proposal for Penn Station [ Diller Scofidio & Renfro]


----------



## Hudson11

👀









Madison Square Garden’s PAC Donates to Local Candidates as Arena’s Future Uncertain


As the future of the arena’s lease comes up for debate, its political action committee has given $1,000 to seven members of the New York City Council.




www.wsj.com


----------



## streetscapeer

That this type of blatant bribery is allowed is so sad!


----------



## shakeltown

prageethSL said:


>


nice view


----------



## GandyNewWorld

hkskyline said:


> Penn Staiton Entrance by Jonathan Chu, on Flickr
> 
> Penn Staiton Entrance by Jonathan Chu, on Flickr
> 
> Penn Staiton Entrance by Jonathan Chu, on Flickr
> 
> Penn Staiton Entrance by Jonathan Chu, on Flickr
> 
> Moynihan Train Hall by Jonathan Chu, on Flickr


----------



## GandyNewWorld

I don’t like how the escalator don’t have more room. The floor has too much surface area. I woulda liked the lower levels to have natural light filtered down.


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## Tered

2/19/2021








Approval of Empire Station Complex plan paves the way for 10 new towers near Penn Station


The plan paves the way for 10 new mixed-use towers that will play host to approximately 20 million gross square feet of Class A commercial office, retail, hotel, and perhaps residential space. This is roughly double the amount of gross square footage currently allowed on the eight sites. While...




archinect.com


----------



## Hudson11

thread for the supertalls: NEW YORK | Future Empire Station District (Penn Plaza) |...


----------



## JohnDee

I can't get over how stupid their are in keeping MSG. Just a massive eyesore, and it keeps current Penn a dungeon forever. Nice.
Of course, those who want to keep it probably care more about convenience than having a beautiful city.


----------



## JohnDee

GandyNewWorld said:


> I don’t like how the escalator don’t have more room. The floor has too much surface area. I woulda liked the lower levels to have natural light filtered down.


It's a travesty. No light down to the tracks. Stupid design.

They could have put an opaque floor or something that would allow light down there.

But MSG is the real problem... Remove that stupid ugly eyesore and a real open station could be constructed.

Sadly whiny sports fans couldn't deal with the terrible "inconvenience" of walking a few more blocks...joke.

Current plan is only about building tall towers and making money rather than creating a wonderful station. Cuomo's plans are all shams, they all are second rate designs.


----------



## Long Island

JohnDee said:


> I can't get over how stupid their are in keeping MSG. Just a massive eyesore, and it keeps current Penn a dungeon forever. Nice.
> Of course, those who want to keep it probably care more about convenience than having a beautiful city.


Because tourists wanting to photograph a pretty train station really do not dictate NYC politics. Most of the NY Metro transit is underground, why should Penn be any different. They already expanded it and are in the process of expanding it again. MSG is in a great location. You take the train to Penn and then just go upstairs for awesome entertainment. It's the most convenient arena to get to in the tri-state area.


----------



## porron

They are not going to demolish the ugliest building in New York, but they are going to demolish beautiful buildings from the early and mid-20th century for the simple fact that they are old and clutter. If what they want is for New York to resemble Shenzhen, they are getting it at full speed.
By the way, if nothing is done with the tunnels that pass under the river and collapses (God forbid) the premise that Madison is in an "ideal" place it will go down the toilet. 
I'm European and right now it's giving me a tachycardia just thinking that they are going to throw away beautiful old buildings.


----------



## Long Island

porron said:


> They are not going to demolish the ugliest building in New York, but they are going to demolish beautiful buildings from the early and mid-20th century for the simple fact that they are old and clutter. If what they want is for New York to resemble Shenzhen, they are getting it at full speed.
> By the way, if nothing is done with the tunnels that pass under the river and collapses (God forbid) the premise that Madison is in an "ideal" place it will go down the toilet.
> I'm European and right now it's giving me a tachycardia just thinking that they are going to throw away beautiful old buildings.


You throw a stone somewhere in NY and you're going to hit a historical structure. Manhattan is not a museum it's a city with millions of people. Again tourists do not get to dictate how the city gets to look. It may be a hot vacation spot for some, but for locals it's home and should be designed to fit their needs and wants. IE: An arena on top of a an expanded and updated train station.


----------



## WillBuild

Given your icon, your interest in this topic is well understood 

But Rangers and Knicks fans are still a fraction of all New Yorkers. As this thread demonstrates, many locals do feel that moving the arena a few blocks is a minor annoyance to a few fans in return for a great improvement for 600K daily commuters.

I actually think the arena can stay, if the Hulu theater is removed and the whole station underneath is opened up, no more cramped separate Amtrak and LIRR levels.

Demolishing the Pennsylvania Hotel and the classic building two blocks south, that I care more about. Use the FAR at elsewhere, or integrate a new building with the historical frontage.


----------



## BoulderGrad

WillBuild said:


> But Rangers and Knicks fans are still a fraction of all New Yorkers. As this thread demonstrates, many locals do feel that *moving the arena a few blocks is a minor annoyance to a few fans in return for a great improvement for 600K daily commuters. *




Uhhh... whut?... Just the interior rebuild of MSG cost over $1bil. You think spending probably double that to acquire land elsewhere and build a new a arena is a "minor annoyance"?... Let alone rebuilding the station in the first place while keeping it running for those 600k commuters. Folks need to stop talking about that sort of project like it would just be a doddle that we're dragging our feet on because some Rangers and Knicks fans just don't want to walk another couple blocks.


----------



## WillBuild

The Empire Station complex is a $51 billion redevelopment plan.

Obviously at that kind of investment a new arena can be part of the discussion. The $1B renovation was 8 years ago, 18 years by the time this project is meant to be under construction.

By then the investment will more than have paid for itself. It is one of the oldest arenas in the country today, let alone by then.

It's not a given that a piecemeal improvement like removing the Hulu theater is a simpler operation than the full replacement of the arena. And that is a much more long term view.

On top of that MSG's special operating permit is expiring and many people are plenty angry at the tax break it has been getting all this time.


----------



## Long Island

BoulderGrad said:


> Uhhh... whut?... Just the interior rebuild of MSG cost over $1bil. You think spending probably double that to acquire land elsewhere and build a new a arena is a "minor annoyance"?... Let alone rebuilding the station in the first place while keeping it running for those 600k commuters. Folks need to stop talking about that sort of project like it would just be a doddle that we're dragging our feet on because some Rangers and Knicks fans just don't want to walk another couple blocks.


My thoughts exactly. It's not about refusing to move a few blocks, I mean the Yankees did it and I still attend games. It's about the money it will waste when the arena interior has just been modernized and meets contemporary standards. Look at NYCFC they've been searching to a place to build a soccer stadium for nearly a decade now. NYC, especially Manhattan, is one of the most developed cities in the nation. On top of being surrounded by water, land is quite hard to come by. It's not a simple as picking a zone of land and saying "lets build here" You'll have at least 250 tenants you'd have to relocate, if they are willing to negotiate. NYCFC found their plot but are fighting with the owner of a parking garage about how to transfer the rights to the land. You're talking potential decades of court battles and millions of tax payer dollars wasted, just to move an arena 1 block over. 

If this was say Denver, Vegas, or Dallas I wouldn't have the stance I do now. They have the luxury of space that NYC seldom enjoys. The arena works fine where it is, moving it is not as simple as the flip of a switch.


----------



## Manitopiaaa

porron said:


> They are not going to demolish the ugliest building in New York, but they are going to demolish beautiful buildings from the early and mid-20th century for the simple fact that they are old and clutter. If what they want is for New York to resemble Shenzhen, they are getting it at full speed.
> By the way, if nothing is done with the tunnels that pass under the river and collapses (God forbid) the premise that Madison is in an "ideal" place it will go down the toilet.
> I'm European and right now it's giving me a tachycardia just thinking that they are going to throw away beautiful old buildings.


Honestly, they should really start from scratch. I can deal with the Vornado supertall piece of the project (Sites 4, 5, 6, 7, 8) since other than Hotel Penn (neglected beyond repair), everything else is cheap lowrise crap. The rest of this "visionary project" is absolute trash.

The whole point of this project was to build a new district centered around a new Penn Station where you don't scurry in like a rat. The entire premise of the project was, "what comes after MSG?" We extended the lease in 2013 for the very purpose of giving these politicians a decade to answer this question and the Dolans a decade to find a new spot.

And after 10 years of dithering, the answer is: nothing changes!

They created this fancy new district, and the most innovative piece is to demolish an entire city block of historic buildings (including a 150-year old church + the gorgeous Site 3), because they couldn't get rid of MSG.

It honestly boggles the mind. Andrew Cuomo is such a big strong macho man that he'll threaten state legislators and commit all sorts of corruption. But he's too afraid to invoke eminent domain on the Dolans? NYC is too afraid to reject another lease renewal?


----------



## Manitopiaaa

Long Island said:


> You throw a stone somewhere in NY and you're going to hit a historical structure. Manhattan is not a museum it's a city with millions of people. Again tourists do not get to dictate how the city gets to look. It may be a hot vacation spot for some, but for locals it's home and should be designed to fit their needs and wants. IE: An arena on top of a an expanded and updated train station.


This bullshit excuse gets tossed out around all the time and it's annoying. Everytime a pre-war is being dismantled, no matter how nice it is, you have the "nEw YoRk iS nOt ParIS" argument. Those pre-wars aren't for tourists. No tourist goes to take pictures of Site 3 or the 1871 St John's the Baptist Church. They're for New Yorkers. What makes New York special is those buildings. And, unfortunately, it's New Yorkers who seem to least appreciate what makes their city unique.

Get rid of them and you'll become another non-descript sea of modernist eyesores.

This neighborhood is a perfect example. "We can get rid of Penn Station because there's still historic buildings around!" > "We can rid of Hotel Penn because we'll still have Sites 1, 2, 3" > "We can get rid of Sites 1, 2, 3 because there's still pre-wars in adjacent blocks" > "We can rid of pre-wars around Herald Square because we'll still have them in Soho." 60 years later and you still have people repeating the same Robert Moses talking points that got us to this MSG nightmare in the first place.

What do you think is the cumulative effect of this Overton Window? It's obvious: the gradual destruction of what makes New York special. Hundreds of years of cumulative history to be lost, and for what? Just so basketball fans aren't inconvenienced by having to commute longer to watch 6'8" mutant men throw orange balls into a net and then they can squeal like tribal charlatans while eating Kit Kats and drinking overpriced beer?

We need to defile the greatest city in the world to please their orangutan tendencies? To be nice to the cartoon villain Dolan family?

50 years of piecemeal destruction and New York will become another Toronto or Oslo or some other god forsaken city with no character, beauty, or identity beyond whatever tacky banal starchitecture Bjarke Ingels wants to shit on them.


----------



## Long Island

Manitopiaaa said:


> This bullshit excuse gets tossed out around all the time and it's annoying. Everytime a pre-war is being dismantled, no matter how nice it is, you have the "nEw YoRk iS nOt ParIS" argument. Those pre-wars aren't for tourists. No tourist goes to take pictures of Site 3 or the 1871 St John's the Baptist Church. They're for New Yorkers. What makes New York special is those buildings. And, unfortunately, it's New Yorkers who seem to least appreciate what makes their city unique.
> 
> Get rid of them and you'll become another non-descript sea of modernist eyesores.
> 
> This neighborhood is a perfect example. "We can get rid of Penn Station because there's still historic buildings around!" > "We can rid of Hotel Penn because we'll still have Sites 1, 2, 3" > "We can get rid of Sites 1, 2, 3 because there's still pre-wars in adjacent blocks" > "We can rid of pre-wars around Herald Square because we'll still have them in Soho." 60 years later and you still have people repeating the same Robert Moses talking points that got us to this MSG nightmare in the first place.
> 
> What do you think is the cumulative effect of this Overton Window? It's obvious: the gradual destruction of what makes New York special. Hundreds of years of cumulative history to be lost, and for what? Just so basketball fans aren't inconvenienced by having to commute longer to watch 6'8" mutant men throw orange balls into a net and then they can squeal like tribal charlatans while eating Kit Kats and drinking overpriced beer?
> 
> We need to defile the greatest city in the world to please their orangutan tendencies? To be nice to the cartoon villain Dolan family?
> 
> 50 years of piecemeal destruction and New York will become another Toronto or Oslo or some other god forsaken city with no character, beauty, or identity beyond whatever tacky banal starchitecture Bjarke Ingels wants to shit on them.


Tell us why you're mad.


----------



## BoulderGrad

Manitopiaaa said:


> This bullshit excuse gets tossed out around all the time and it's annoying. Everytime a pre-war is being dismantled, no matter how nice it is, you have the "nEw YoRk iS nOt ParIS" argument. Those pre-wars aren't for tourists. No tourist goes to take pictures of Site 3 or the 1871 St John's the Baptist Church. They're for New Yorkers. What makes New York special is those buildings. And, unfortunately, it's New Yorkers who seem to least appreciate what makes their city unique.
> 
> Get rid of them and you'll become another non-descript sea of modernist eyesores.
> 
> This neighborhood is a perfect example. "We can get rid of Penn Station because there's still historic buildings around!" > "We can rid of Hotel Penn because we'll still have Sites 1, 2, 3" > "We can get rid of Sites 1, 2, 3 because there's still pre-wars in adjacent blocks" > "We can rid of pre-wars around Herald Square because we'll still have them in Soho." 60 years later and you still have people repeating the same Robert Moses talking points that got us to this MSG nightmare in the first place.
> 
> What do you think is the cumulative effect of this Overton Window? It's obvious: the gradual destruction of what makes New York special. Hundreds of years of cumulative history to be lost, and for what? Just so basketball fans aren't inconvenienced by having to commute longer to watch 6'8" mutant men throw orange balls into a net and then they can squeal like tribal charlatans while eating Kit Kats and drinking overpriced beer?
> 
> We need to defile the greatest city in the world to please their orangutan tendencies? To be nice to the cartoon villain Dolan family?
> 
> 50 years of piecemeal destruction and New York will become another Toronto or Oslo or some other god forsaken city with no character, beauty, or identity beyond whatever tacky banal starchitecture Bjarke Ingels wants to shit on them.


New York is forever growing and changing with the times. But it must still preserve and remember its history... Can we agree on that statement? 

But just saying that, It's a very difficult balancing act that every city has to deal with, and sometimes they get it wrong (See: Penn Station). The best of both worlds is making that which is old new again (See: Grand Central). But that's not always the easy or cost effective way to go about things. Also, some building forms are just not capable of absorbing a more modern use, and not everything is worth preserving. Any city will always be a piecemeal mishmash of different eras of buildings. That's generally what "character" is for a city. 

A few sites identified will be tragic loses. On balance tho, most of those sites are squat little buildings that have no practical use in midtown Manhattan that I'd happily see redeveloped.


----------



## Manitopiaaa

BoulderGrad said:


> New York is forever growing and changing with the times. But it must still preserve and remember its history... Can we agree on that statement?
> 
> But just saying that, It's a very difficult balancing act that every city has to deal with, and sometimes they get it wrong (See: Penn Station). The best of both worlds is making that which is old new again (See: Grand Central). But that's not always the easy or cost effective way to go about things. Also, some building forms are just not capable of absorbing a more modern use, and not everything is worth preserving. Any city will always be a piecemeal mishmash of different eras of buildings. That's generally what "character" is for a city.
> 
> A few sites identified will be tragic loses. On balance tho, most of those sites are squat little buildings that have no practical use in midtown Manhattan that I'd happily see redeveloped.


Of course. And I love supertalls just like everyone else. But there's a place for everything.

The statement should be: "Is the replacement better than what's already there." I don't see how anyone can claim that destroying an entire block of historic buildings for two 200m boxes is a good trade-off.

Especially since there are literally 12 blocks just south of Moynihan (the blue box) full of far less impressive pre-war buildings, Moses-style projects, and a massive parking lot the size of MSG. You could fit 25 supertalls in that space alone even if you leave Chelsea Park alone. Yet instead they want to begin bulldozing the historic buildings in yellow instead.


----------



## SammyBaby

The following solution is fool proof: At one time a new enclosed stadium was being considered to be built on a deck to be constructed over the yet to be developed western portion of the hudson yards. That never occurred, but since then, the 7 train extension has been built, the convention center has been expanded and a major retail shopping hub has been built on the eastern portion of hudson yards, making this a 100% accessible by public transportation business destination and playland. SOLUTION: build a new Madison Square Garden on a deck over the western portion of the hudson yards, across the street from the convention center with an underground pedestrian tunnel that connects to the 34th street 7 train station. THEN: Tear down the old Madison Square Garden and 2 Penn Plaza leaving a completely leveled super block from 33rd to 31st Street between 7th and 8th Avenue and build the new above and below ground Penn station there. It's a win win situation. A new Penn Station on the original Penn Station footprint and a new Madison Square Garden in the city's hottest growing business and entertainment hub, all fully accessible by underground public transportation. The only thing in the way is Governor Cuomo's and his cronies egos!


----------



## Long Island

SammyBaby said:


> The following solution is fool proof: At one time a new enclosed stadium was being considered to be built on a deck to be constructed over the yet to be developed western portion of the hudson yards. That never occurred, but since then, the 7 train extension has been built, the convention center has been expanded and a major retail shopping hub has been built on the eastern portion of hudson yards, making this a 100% accessible by public transportation business destination and playland. SOLUTION: build a new Madison Square Garden on a deck over the western portion of the hudson yards, across the street from the convention center with an underground pedestrian tunnel that connects to the 34th street 7 train station. THEN: Tear down the old Madison Square Garden and 2 Penn Plaza leaving a completely leveled super block from 33rd to 31st Street between 7th and 8th Avenue and build the new above and below ground Penn station there. It's a win win situation. A new Penn Station on the original Penn Station footprint and a new Madison Square Garden in the city's hottest growing business and entertainment hub, all fully accessible by underground public transportation. The only thing in the way is Governor Cuomo's and his cronies egos!


That land is already slated for development, construction just has not started yet. Besides if the NY State and NYC Government transfer the land to the Dolans it will be a slap in the face to the NY Jets and their fanbase. Remember it was Dolan who killed the Westside Stadium project, so to just hand the land to him would be a disaster.


----------



## MarshallKnight

Long Island said:


> That land is already slated for development, construction just has not started yet. Besides of the NY State and NYC Government transfer the land to the Dolans it will be a slap in the face to the NY Jets and their fanbase. Remember it was Dolan who killed the Westside Stadium project, so to just hand the land to him would be a disaster.


On top of all that, there's a gigantic falloff in terms of accessibility to that site. MSG is currently either directly on top of, or a short walk to all of the Penn Station commuter lines, the A/C/E, 1/2/3, B/D/F/M, N/Q/R/W and NJ PATH. All of those passengers, coming from all of those lines, are supposed to transfer to the 7 train at the same time on game days?

That's maybe _the_ key reason why the CB5/PAU proposal is considered viable at all: it would keep MSG at the nexus of all of those transit options, in an even more central, arguably more prestigious location (for those who care about something as intangible as prestige, i.e. the Dolans).


----------



## prageethSL

*MTA floats plans to get more light into Penn Station without moving MSG*



> Transit officials are mulling proposals to bring more light into Penn Station’s dreary corridors — without having to move Madison Square Garden, according to a new report.
> 
> MTA exec Janno Lieber presented two concepts on Friday to “city, state, community and advocacy leaders,” the Wall Street Journal reported.





> *One proposal envisions carving out 40% of the station’s upper level to create a single-level station with ceiling heights of up to 40 feet. Planners would widen the station’s three north-south concourses and extend them south toward 31st Street.
> 
> The removal of so much of the upper level of the station would also allow planners to create a 100-foot-tall train hall with a skylight in the former taxiway between Madison Square Garden and 2 Penn Plaza.*
> 
> *A second proposal would retain the two-level station and create an atrium in an area that was recently used as an Amtrak waiting area. *





> ” You are lost in this enclosed box,” Lieber told the WSJ. “What we want to do in either version is to open it up.”
> 
> Lieber did not provide a cost estimate for either proposal, the Journal said. He told the paper any Penn Station revamp could be funded as part of the $30 billion Gateway Program, which includes building a new tunnel under the Hudson River.
> 
> Penn Station is owned by Amtrak, whose president told the WSJ the railroad is working to develop a “consensus master plan” for the station, which served 600,000 people daily before the COVID-19 pandemic.


----------



## phoenixboi08

prageethSL said:


> *MTA floats plans to get more light into Penn Station without moving MSG*


Well, this reconfiguration was the entire point of Farley-Moynihan, in the first place. But yeah, "lipstick" and "pigs..."


----------



## prageethSL

*MTA Announces Reconstruction Alternatives for Iconic New Penn Station**.*


*Single-Level Alternative*

This approach transforms Penn Station into an open, single-level concourse, eliminating all low ceiling heights and simplifying entry and exit routes from trains and the street level while also creating new large circulation areas bigger than the Great Hall of Grand Central Terminal. This alternative would remove 40 percent of the upper level so that all the public concourses could be two or three stories high, resulting in a more open, airy space throughout the station with better sightlines and more direct access to both tracks and platforms, and to station entrances/exits.
It would also feature a spacious, light-filled mid-block Train Hall with prominent new entrances on 33rd and 31st Streets near Seventh Avenue. The hall would bring in natural light with a new multi-story atrium built in the former taxiway between Madison Square Garden and 2 Penn Plaza, which has been closed for security since Sept. 11, 2001. This alternative moves MSG loading off 33rd Street, allowing 33rd Street to become a pedestrian-oriented shared street - greatly improving the streetscape.
The single-level alternative could also be combined with a grand new entrance on Eighth Avenue and the light-filled West Train Hall in the space currently occupied by Madison Square Garden's 5,600-seat Hulu Theater by purchasing the theater from MSG.











































*Two-Level Alternative*

The first approach would transform Penn Station by leveraging the existing configuration's two-level boarding configuration while improving existing Penn's layout, creating a central atrium, and repurposing some of Amtrak's space for NJ Transit's commuters and operations. This alternative can be combined with a grand new entrance on Eighth Avenue and the light-filled West Train Hall in the space currently occupied by Madison Square Garden's 5,600-seat Hulu Theater by purchasing the theater from MSG, increasing sightlines and better movement throughout the train hall. The two-level alternative could also incorporate new vertical access points to platforms, significantly widened concourses throughout, and new entrances at sidewalk level along Eighth Avenue.





































*Single-Level VS Two-Level 
*


----------



## streetscapeer

It looks like I was right when I mentioned a few months back that this space below is between 2 Penn and MSG....not Penn South.



streetscapeer said:


> Renderings of planned Penn Station renovations, from Governor Cuomo's announcement this morning
> 
> It's the space between 2 Penn and MSG and creates an atrium for light to get in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 967749
> 
> View attachment 967751
> 
> Source





prageethSL said:


> This is actually rendering of the new Penn station Expansion project.


----------



## JohnDee

Same thing with that odd man over on ssp. Wouldn’t accept that it wasn’t penn south when explicitly told. but not surprising given his ego. Lol. Dude can’t be wrong ever.

anyway, both proposals are ugly as sin.

tear down that hideous sports toilet run by greedy owners who care little for nyc. Build a proper station, not these second rate proposals unworthy of nyc. lipstick on pig.

out with msg. Dolan out,


----------



## GandyNewWorld

I just can’t get behind any plan that calls for MSG to stay the same. Get rid of it please. But what do u expect, evil rules this world and brutalism is their fav type architecture.


----------



## phoenixboi08

prageethSL said:


> *MTA Announces Reconstruction Alternatives for Iconic New Penn Station**.
> 
> 
> Single-Level Alternative*
> 
> This approach transforms Penn Station into an open, single-level concourse, eliminating all low ceiling heights and simplifying entry and exit routes from trains and the street level while also creating new large circulation areas bigger than the Great Hall of Grand Central Terminal. This alternative would remove 40 percent of the upper level so that all the public concourses could be two or three stories high, resulting in a more open, airy space throughout the station with better sightlines and more direct access to both tracks and platforms, and to station entrances/exits.
> It would also feature a spacious, light-filled mid-block Train Hall with prominent new entrances on 33rd and 31st Streets near Seventh Avenue. The hall would bring in natural light with a new multi-story atrium built in the former taxiway between Madison Square Garden and 2 Penn Plaza, which has been closed for security since Sept. 11, 2001. This alternative moves MSG loading off 33rd Street, allowing 33rd Street to become a pedestrian-oriented shared street - greatly improving the streetscape.
> The single-level alternative could also be combined with a grand new entrance on Eighth Avenue and the light-filled West Train Hall in the space currently occupied by Madison Square Garden's 5,600-seat Hulu Theater by purchasing the theater from MSG.
> 
> *Two-Level Alternative*
> 
> The first approach would transform Penn Station by leveraging the existing configuration's two-level boarding configuration while improving existing Penn's layout, creating a central atrium, and repurposing some of Amtrak's space for NJ Transit's commuters and operations. This alternative can be combined with a grand new entrance on Eighth Avenue and the light-filled West Train Hall in the space currently occupied by Madison Square Garden's 5,600-seat Hulu Theater by purchasing the theater from MSG, increasing sightlines and better movement throughout the train hall. The two-level alternative could also incorporate new vertical access points to platforms, significantly widened concourses throughout, and new entrances at sidewalk level along Eighth Avenue.
> 
> 
> *Single-Level VS Two-Level *
> 
> View attachment 1394074


Yes, I do think those of us who consistently pointed out that the clear intent behind Farley/Moynihan was this _exact_ thing are being vindicated.



streetscapeer said:


> It looks like I was right when I mentioned a few months back that this space below is between 2 Penn and MSG....not Penn South.


Good catch.



GandyNewWorld said:


> I just can’t get behind any plan that calls for MSG to stay the same. Get rid of it please. But what do u expect, evil rules this world and brutalism is their fav type architecture.


The Garden being removed has nothing to do with circulation and concourse-level improvements.

These improvements are necessary and aren't mutually-exclusive with track-level improvements, which would likely need to see major re-configurations to MSG.

This has been said over and over on this -- and many other threads -- and I don't know when it will sink in...


----------



## prageethSL




----------



## JohnDee

phoenixboi08 said:


> Yes, I do think those of us who consistently pointed out that the clear intent behind Farley/Moynihan was this _exact_ thing are being vindicated.
> 
> 
> 
> Good catch.
> 
> 
> The Garden being removed has nothing to do with circulation and concourse-level improvements.
> 
> These improvements are necessary and aren't mutually-exclusive with track-level improvements, which would likely need to see major re-configurations to MSG.
> 
> This has been said over and over on this -- and many other threads -- and I don't know when it will sink in...


The garden is a hideous carbuncle run by greedy owners with no interest in the aesthetic beauty of the city. It must go or else Nyc will suffer the ignominy of having an awful toilet bowl stuck in their cbd for centuries to come. Not to mention a second rate main station..

these proposals are ikea worthy designs. Laughable. They must not be built.
They are ugly, plasticky and tacky designs that are not worthy of the main station of the greatest city in the country. They look like a child designed them, and they are hideous trashy kindergarten level designs with childish signage. They look like they belong in a suburban mall or Las Vegas strip. 

They are nothing compared to the new stations of Europe or Asian capitals.

Simple as that. One can not accept these laughable ikea designs that have been put forth.

move the arena and build a modernist station worthy of Nyc.


----------



## prageethSL

*Governor Hochul Unveils Designs to Connect Manhattan's High Line to Moynihan Train Hall *

































Governor Kathy Hochul today unveiled designs for a new connector that will link New York City's High Line seamlessly to Moynihan Train Hall. This will happen via Brookfield Properties' publicly accessible Magnolia Court that runs through its Manhattan West development. The proposed project will give pedestrians safe, unobstructed access to the Far West Side of Manhattan via two bridges that will connect to the 10th Avenue terminus of the High Line. A public-private partnership comprising Empire State Development, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, Brookfield Properties Group, and Friends of the High Line is undertaking the *$50 million* project, which will be completed by *Spring 2023*.


----------



## WillBuild

[]


----------



## uakoops

Is that made out of wood???


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## BoulderGrad

uakoops said:


> Is that made out of wood???


Mass Timber, so hot right now.









Engineered wood - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## prageethSL

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1441445596326420480

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440375951603298305


----------



## GandyNewWorld

phoenixboi08 said:


> Yes, I do think those of us who consistently pointed out that the clear intent behind Farley/Moynihan was this _exact_ thing are being vindicated.
> 
> 
> 
> Good catch.
> 
> 
> The Garden being removed has nothing to do with circulation and concourse-level improvements.
> 
> These improvements are necessary and aren't mutually-exclusive with track-level improvements, which would likely need to see major re-configurations to MSG.
> 
> This has been said over and over on this -- and many other threads -- and I don't know when it will sink in...


MSG has got to go. If u can’t see that, ur part of the problem. Go look at the old penn station, beautiful open areas with gorgeous lighting from the glass atrium above. I want that or something close to it. I don’t want any garbage arena on top of what should’ve one of the most magical places in the world. MSG is garbage. Got to go!


----------



## phoenixboi08

GandyNewWorld said:


> MSG has got to go. If u can’t see that, ur part of the problem. Go look at the old penn station, beautiful open areas with gorgeous lighting from the glass atrium above. I want that or something close to it. I don’t want any garbage arena on top of what should’ve one of the most magical places in the world. MSG is garbage. Got to go!


Again.
The. Station. Is. Being. Expanded. Beyond. The. Current. Footprint. So. That. The. Existing. Facilities. Can. Be. Essentially. Gutted. And. Reconstructed. In. A. Rational. Way.
You can literally actually look at the proposals for what is being done to realize _why _they prioritized building Moynihan to realize this. It isn't that difficult to see.

The argument for removing MSG has more to do with it being viewed as a necessity for track-side improvements: However, I find this a bit absurd. The issue appears to be almost entirely an operations issue that stems from the manner in which NJT and LIRR turn trains around there instead of through-running. You don't need to bulldoze the Garden (and certainly, don't need to rebuild the old station) to fix this...

It's a political/administrative issue. Simple as that.


----------



## Long Island

phoenixboi08 said:


> Again.
> The. Station. Is. Being. Expanded. Beyond. The. Current. Footprint. So. That. The. Existing. Facilities. Can. Be. Essentially. Gutted. And. Reconstructed. In. A. Rational. Way.
> You can literally actually look at the proposals for what is being done to realize _why _they prioritized building Moynihan to realize this. It isn't that difficult to see.
> 
> The argument for removing MSG has more to do with it being viewed as a necessity for track-side improvements: However, I find this a bit absurd. The issue appears to be almost entirely an operations issue that stems from the manner in which NJT and LIRR turn trains around there instead of through-running. You don't need to bulldoze the Garden (and certainly, don't need to rebuild the old station) to fix this...
> 
> It's a political/administrative issue. Simple as that.


Some people want to treat NYC like Disneyland rather than a living breathing city. They want to fly in on their "Big NYC vacation" take lots of pics for social media likes, and fly home to their one horse towns. They forget that millions of people live here and our needs supersede their desire to photograph pretty buildings. People are still butt hurt over old Penn being demolished. Yeah it was terrible at the time, but it was 50 years ago. Move on. And honestly if it was still here the cost to maintain it would be insane! A LIRR trip would be well over $40 just to platform in a pretty building.


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## BoulderGrad

Even if you were to tear down MSG, you're not getting the classic old Penn Station back. In all likelihood, a new Penn Station would have about as much coziness and character as a new airport terminal. Even if it were a block by block recreation of the original, then you're getting the Disney Castle, not the classic old station. Yes it was a tragedy to lose it, but folks need to stop pining for its return. It ain't happening.


----------



## streetscapeer

*Governor Hochul Unveils Commuter-First Vision for Penn Station and Revitalized Surrounding Neighborhood*

*Key features of the new proposal include:*



*New, World-Class Train Facility*

Creates a single level, double-height train hall that doubles passenger circulation space on the new public level from approximately 123,000 square feet to approximately 250,000 square feet and eliminates the congested, cramped and crowded passageways in existing Penn Station
Includes a 450-foot long sunlit train hall that is the size of Moynihan's and Grand Central's halls combined
Simplifies navigation
Creates clear sight lines to exits and entrances
Adds 18 more escalators or stairs and 11 more elevators to platforms

*Reduced Density*

Shaves off 1.4 million square feet of development from the previous plan and decreases heights for proposed buildings.
Provides new design controls to protect views of the Empire State Building along 33rd Street

*Public Realm and Social Services*

Adds ~8 acres of public space, including a 30,000-square foot plaza comparable in size to Rockefeller Plaza and mandates public space set-asides on each building site
Creates a Public Realm Task Force comprised of community leaders and stakeholders, which will develop a plan of prioritized public realm improvements, to be funded by a Public Realm Fund, with initial revenue from redevelopment being dedicated to this fund
Requires community facility spaces that will prioritize much-needed social services for the neighborhood, with a particular focus on New Yorkers experiencing homelessness
Creates underground loading/unloading for MSG, taking trucks off the street

*Affordable Housing*

Allows up to 1,800 residential units, of which 540 would be permanently affordable
Mandates one building as residential, which will include 162 permanently affordable units - more than the entire number of residences that would be displaced if the southern expansion of Penn Station occurs

*Public Transit Access and Shared Streets*

Expands new underground corridors to the Sixth Avenue IND line, allowing users of the 34th Street Herald Square Station (B, F, M, N, R, W lines) seamless access to Penn Station
Nearly doubles the existing entrances to Penn Station from 12 to 20, and requires developers to add additional subway entrances and exits directly to and from buildings, ultimately reducing density and congestion at over-crowded entrances
Widens sidewalks throughout the neighborhood and recommends that 31st, 32nd and 33rd Streets become shared streets that prioritize pedestrians
Adds protected bike lanes and greatly expands bike parking while reducing vehicular parking

*Pedestrian-Friendly Streetscape*

Limits the size of new building commercial lobbies
Requires that 40% of every building frontage is an "active use" such as retail and community facilities


----------



## jam5

I love what I am seeing. It would be even better if Madison Square Garden were to move someplace else.


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## Long Island

jam5 said:


> I love what I am seeing. It would be even better if Madison Square Garden were to move someplace else.


Old and boring argument.


----------



## BoulderGrad

Long Island said:


> Old and boring argument.


Indeed.

But on things that can be removed from MSG, is it still in the cards to remove the hulu theater? It's doesn't exactly play nice with the street front, and having another big entrance with natural light would be great.


----------



## MarshallKnight

BoulderGrad said:


> Indeed.
> 
> But on things that can be removed from MSG, is it still in the cards to remove the hulu theater? It's doesn't exactly play nice with the street front, and having another big entrance with natural light would be great.


I’ve been wondering the same. All these renderings show a sun-filled concourse, but it’s hard to imagine anything close to that level of light reaching the depths of the station without opening up the Hulu Theater end as well.


----------



## Long Island

MarshallKnight said:


> I’ve been wondering the same. All these renderings show a sun-filled concourse, but it’s hard to imagine anything close to that level of light reaching the depths of the station without opening up the Hulu Theater end as well.


I don't think so. It's privately owned so no level of government can force it's removal. Also it is used quite often especially during the holiday season. Most of the natural light will come from closing streets to vehicles and allowing only pedestrian traffic, so the surrounding area will have openings to allow natural light into the lower levels. 

Really a good idea IMO because trying to navigate those tiny sidewalks during rush hour is a nightmare.


----------



## CNTower246810

MarshallKnight said:


> I’ve been wondering the same. All these renderings show a sun-filled concourse, but it’s hard to imagine anything close to that level of light reaching the depths of the station without opening up the Hulu Theater end as well.


I wouldn't really say all of them are shown as being sun filled, a lot of it just seems to be artificial lighting that is made to look bright due to the double height ceilings. It really only seems like the main concourse hall is the naturally lit portion and whatever light flows from that into the train hall. It's not really a Moynihan situation where there is a skylight void directly on top of the train hall area. The use of materials and colors is what really determines the lightness of the space. But raising ceiling heights really does help with bringing in the natural light. Penn 2 will be shading the hall though at certain times of the day. They aren't really visible in the renders, but maybe the atriums on the proposed corner entrances along 8th Ave will help with bringing in sunlight.

But I agree with Long Island, the proposal to make 31st-33rd streets pedestrian friendly is good thing for congestion.


----------



## dylan345

Long Island said:


> I don't think so. It's privately owned so no level of government can force it's removal. Also it is used quite often especially during the holiday season. Most of the natural light will come from closing streets to vehicles and allowing only pedestrian traffic, so the surrounding area will have openings to allow natural light into the lower levels.
> 
> Really a good idea IMO because trying to navigate those tiny sidewalks during rush hour is a nightmare.


Eminent domain is a thing. But doesn't mean the government wants to pursue it or is the right course of action in this case.


----------



## WillBuild

The state also has leverage with MSG with its (wholly unjustified) tax break running out.


----------



## Riley1066

If they're going to turn 33rd and 31st Streets into pedestrian plazas they should really extend that High Line Walkway all the way to the 9th Avenue/31st Street plaza in addition to this bridge to Manhattan West.


----------



## aquamaroon

streetscapeer said:


> *Governor Hochul Unveils Commuter-First Vision for Penn Station and Revitalized Surrounding Neighborhood*
> 
> *Key features of the new proposal include:*
> 
> 
> 
> *New, World-Class Train Facility*
> 
> Creates a single level, double-height train hall that doubles passenger circulation space on the new public level from approximately 123,000 square feet to approximately 250,000 square feet and eliminates the congested, cramped and crowded passageways in existing Penn Station
> Includes a 450-foot long sunlit train hall that is the size of Moynihan's and Grand Central's halls combined
> Simplifies navigation
> Creates clear sight lines to exits and entrances
> Adds 18 more escalators or stairs and 11 more elevators to platforms
> 
> *Reduced Density*
> 
> Shaves off 1.4 million square feet of development from the previous plan and decreases heights for proposed buildings.
> Provides new design controls to protect views of the Empire State Building along 33rd Street
> 
> *Public Realm and Social Services*
> 
> Adds ~8 acres of public space, including a 30,000-square foot plaza comparable in size to Rockefeller Plaza and mandates public space set-asides on each building site
> Creates a Public Realm Task Force comprised of community leaders and stakeholders, which will develop a plan of prioritized public realm improvements, to be funded by a Public Realm Fund, with initial revenue from redevelopment being dedicated to this fund
> Requires community facility spaces that will prioritize much-needed social services for the neighborhood, with a particular focus on New Yorkers experiencing homelessness
> Creates underground loading/unloading for MSG, taking trucks off the street
> 
> *Affordable Housing*
> 
> Allows up to 1,800 residential units, of which 540 would be permanently affordable
> Mandates one building as residential, which will include 162 permanently affordable units - more than the entire number of residences that would be displaced if the southern expansion of Penn Station occurs
> 
> *Public Transit Access and Shared Streets*
> 
> Expands new underground corridors to the Sixth Avenue IND line, allowing users of the 34th Street Herald Square Station (B, F, M, N, R, W lines) seamless access to Penn Station
> Nearly doubles the existing entrances to Penn Station from 12 to 20, and requires developers to add additional subway entrances and exits directly to and from buildings, ultimately reducing density and congestion at over-crowded entrances
> Widens sidewalks throughout the neighborhood and recommends that 31st, 32nd and 33rd Streets become shared streets that prioritize pedestrians
> Adds protected bike lanes and greatly expands bike parking while reducing vehicular parking
> 
> *Pedestrian-Friendly Streetscape*
> 
> Limits the size of new building commercial lobbies
> Requires that 40% of every building frontage is an "active use" such as retail and community facilities



Thank you for all of the info! This part sticks out like a sore thumb to me from the plan:



> *Reduced Density*
> 
> Shaves off 1.4 million square feet of development from the previous plan and decreases heights for proposed buildings.
> Provides new design controls to protect views of the Empire State Building along 33rd Street


WHY IN THE WORLD would you work to reduce density here? Midtown Manhattan is literally the single best "neighborhood" in the entire country to increase density. With Penn Station and the MTA it's the perfect place for massive office and residential developments that can be served by commuters and people without cars. The fact that NIMBY's can even strike around Madison Square Garden and Penn Station is just ridiculous to me.


----------



## prageethSL

*MSG owner hints it would shrink to accommodate Penn Station revamp*

Madison Square Garden officials might be willing to sell a portion of the world’s most famous arena to clear the way for Gov. Kathy Hochul’s plan to rebuild Penn Station.
“When the opportunity presents, that makes sense both strategically and financially, we will take that opportunity to create value,” MSG Entertainment President Andrew Lustgarten said on a conference call Tuesday, in response to a question from an analyst.
Last week Gov. Hochul unveiled her plan for redeveloping Penn Station, the nation’s largest commuter hub that is entombed underneath the Garden. Under the preliminary proposal, the arena would remain where it is, but renderings showed a grand new entrance on Eighth Avenue across from Moynihan Train Hall.* Building that entrance would require demolishing the Hulu Theater at MSG.

“There will be a time to monetize,” Lustgarten said—meaning sell the theater—but added he doesn’t think a deal would be struck soon.*

LightShed Partners analyst Brandon Ross estimated in 2016 that the 5,600-seat theater was worth $77 million.Even bigger money from a Penn Station renovation could be realized by the Garden and Chief Executive James Dolan selling developers the right to build nearby.

*Under zoning rules, the Garden would be granted additional air rights if the arena is utilized to renovate Penn Station, said Ross, who estimated five years ago the existing rights were worth $1.3 billion. *Air rights are transferable and would be attractive to Vornado Realty Trust or other developers eyeing the area. Hochul envisions that tax revenue from up to 10 new towers would help pay for the state’s share of rebuilding Penn Station.

“The plans are in their infancy,” Ross said.

*Lustgarten said MSG fully supports Hochul’s efforts to redevelop Penn Station and the surrounding streets.*

“We look forward to continue working with her on many things to come that are currently in progress,” he said.


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## MarshallKnight

Well, we have an answer to our Hulu Theater question. Despite Crain's phrasing that " renderings showed a grand new entrance on Eighth Avenue across from Moynihan Train Hall," the actual presentation slides seem to show every angle _but_ the Eighth Ave side, which I think added to the confusion about whether Hulu was a part of the plan. 

You can make out a sliver of that entrance, obscured by Moynihan, here:










Maybe they didn't want to jump the gun and assume they could acquire Hulu? But this seems like a great compromise. Given how much money MSG stands to make on these new air rights, they could sell Hulu for a nominal $1 fee to streamline the whole process. Here's hoping it all comes together.


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## CNTower246810

MarshallKnight said:


> Well, we have an answer to our Hulu Theater question. Despite Crain's phrasing that " renderings showed a grand new entrance on Eighth Avenue across from Moynihan Train Hall," the actual presentation slides seem to show every angle _but_ the Eighth Ave side, which I think added to the confusion about whether Hulu was a part of the plan.
> 
> You can make out a sliver of that entrance, obscured by Moynihan, here:
> 
> Maybe they didn't want to jump the gun and assume they could acquire Hulu? But this seems like a great compromise. Given how much money MSG stands to make on these new air rights, they could sell Hulu for a nominal $1 fee to streamline the whole process. Here's hoping it all comes together.


That is the entrance I was referencing in my previous post. Renders of the 8th ave entrance have remained unchanged since that design reveal was released in April of this year. The Forum (Hulu Theater) lobby extension structure is still there. From wording on articles there may or may not be one on the opposite side. Original plans did include the removal of the theater for a singular grand 8th Ave entrance, but those plans have since been scaled back for some time, the theater doesn't seem to be going anywhere atm.


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## MarshallKnight

CNTower246810 said:


> That is the entrance I was referencing in my previous post. Renders of the 8th ave entrance have remained unchanged since that design reveal was released in April of this year. The Forum (Hulu Theater) lobby extension structure is still there. From wording on articles there may or may not be one on the opposite side. Original plans did include the removal of the theater for a singular grand 8th Ave entrance, but those plans have since been scaled back for some time, the theater doesn't seem to be going anywhere atm.


Ahh you’re right, we have seen that before — I think I got disoriented by the developments pictured there behind MSG.


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## Hudson11

an update on some ancillary developments, this small botique office building, 12 Penn Plaza, sits at the base of a new hotel that is currently U/C at 255 West 34th.









Teleconferencing Firm Poly Nab 9K SF at 12 Penn Plaza


California-based teleconferencing service Poly has inked a deal for 9,306 square feet at 12 Penn Plaza.




commercialobserver.com






















NEW YORK | 255 West 34th Street | 121m | 397ft | 33 fl | U/C


https://www.cityrealty.com/nyc/market-insight/features/future-nyc/255-west-34th-street-construction-begins-chetrit039s-towering-hotel-across-from-penn-station/15364




www.skyscrapercity.com


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## Hudson11

MSG Renews 428K-SF Corporate Headquarters at 2 Penn


Madison Square Garden Entertainment (MSG) is staying put at 2 Penn Plaza with a new, 428,000-square-foot lease.




commercialobserver.com


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## streetscapeer

Very interesting information from SSP:



NYguy;9456271 said:


> So, two of the big issues that always come up with the expansion/rebuilding of Penn Station are the removal of MSG, and the through running of trains through the station.
> 
> Both issues have been discussed (and shot down) in the past, and here we can see how those plans fit in with the new rebuilding of the station.
> 
> First, we have the issue of Madison Square Garden, and a question an answer session from one of the meetings earlier this year to give us some insight...
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## WillBuild

Very interesting find, thanks!

Especially good to hear that through running is taken into consideration. Even if it mentions specific concerns that previous proposals have ignored are were unaware of.

And interesting argument against demolishing the Hulu theater: that most users enter on the east side, and (increasingly many) users from the west side will have Moynihan as grand entrance. Somewhat shocking that the demolishing the theater option is estimated at $2B, but well.. New York costs.

I guess I was wrong that the tax abatement can be used as leverage :/ (if you can trust this assessment)


----------



## Long Island

Twopsy said:


> That arena though is the reason why the most important train station in New York City is mostly hidden underground at the moment. Madison Square Garden already moved twice. It once used to be at Madison Square. The current Madison Square Garden already is at its place for quite a while and it may be time to replace it with an even greater arena at another place. Just a few hundred metres to the east there is that giant storage building which has more than twice the footprint of Madisin Square Garden. Seems like a waste of space in Manhattan. I could even imagine building Madison Square Garden underground below a park.


To tune of $8 Billion? Put aside the tourist argument, put aside the "I miss the pretty building" argument. And give me one valid reason how relocation an arena 7 stories above the tracks is the major issue we have? NY State and NYC officials have already recognized that 1968 Penn was no longer a viable solution for Midtown. That's why we have a new train hall on 8th ave. It's also why the area under MSG is under extensive renovations, including new entrances and wider concourses. 

So tell me how, in the middle of a renovation, tearing down an arena and starting all over again is going to help the local commuters, and residents of NY, NY, CT? 

And remember, I asked for an argument aside from attracting tourists, or admiring a pretty building.


----------



## Twopsy

Long Island said:


> To tune of $8 Billion? Put aside the tourist argument, put aside the "I miss the pretty building" argument. And give me one valid reason how relocation an arena 7 stories above the tracks is the major issue we have? NY State and NYC officials have already recognized that 1968 Penn was no longer a viable solution for Midtown. That's why we have a new train hall on 8th ave. It's also why the area under MSG is under extensive renovations, including new entrances and wider concourses.
> 
> So tell me how, in the middle of a renovation, tearing down an arena and starting all over again is going to help the local commuters, and residents of NY, NY, CT?
> 
> And remember, I asked for an argument aside from attracting tourists, or admiring a pretty building.


The owners of Madison Square Garden made those expensive renovations, although they knew that in 2023 the permit would expire. It seems they wanted to create facts and make it harder for the city not to expand the permit. 

The train stations are the most important buildings of any modern city. They should bot be buried under the ground. Of course there was some progress with the old post office turned into a train hall, but many tracks are still buried under Madison Square Garden. Why does it have to be so expensive to relocate Madison Square Garden? It should be possible to build a modern arena with 20,000 seats for less than $1 billion. It seems New Yorkers are very sentimental about Madison Sqare Garden, because they never saw the old Penn Station in person.

How can you put aside the "pretty building" argument? In New York City often pretty buildings get replaced by ugly ones. If that trend continues, New York City might one day look like Tokyo.


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## Long Island

Twopsy said:


> The owners of Madison Square Garden made those expensive renovations, although they knew that in 2023 the permit would expire. It seems they wanted to create facts and make it harder for the city not to expand the permit.
> 
> The train stations are the most important buildings of any modern city. They should bot be buried under the ground. Of course there was some progress with the old post office turned into a train hall, but many tracks are still buried under Madison Square Garden. Why does it have to be so expensive to relocate Madison Square Garden? It should be possible to build a modern arena with 20,000 seats for less than $1 billion. It seems New Yorkers are very sentimental about Madison Sqare Garden, because they never saw the old Penn Station in person.
> 
> How can you put aside the "pretty building" argument? In New York City often pretty buildings get replaced by ugly ones. If that trend continues, New York City might one day look like Tokyo.


I didn't reference the renovations to the inside of MSG. The $8 Billion is the estimated cost to relocate the arena. That includes NY State buying the current building, since it's privately owned, buying new land for relocation, paying to demolish the current building, paying to demolish the structures on the new land, then paying to build a new arena and train a hall. You can find it all in more detail in the link below.









Madison Square Garden would cost $8B to relocate, NY officials said during confidential meeting


Empire State Development Corporation officials spent months earlier this year lobbying for ex-Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s proposed overhaul of Penn Station. But forcing the relocation of Madison Square Garden — which owns a lease on the air rights above the train hub until 2023 — was out of the...




www.nydailynews.com





And yes most New Yorkers have accepted that old Penn is gone. Most love MSG and it's location. It's quite convenient to get off the train and go right upstairs for your evenings event, especially on bitter cold winter nights. It was a shame what happened, but it's been almost 60 years. It's gone, it's never coming back. NY state would never pay to put the building back brick by brick, and Midtown is not Disney World.

Side note, to everyone else reading this. I'm sorry I sound like a broken record, but people who do not live in NY need to understand. NY is a great place to visit, probably on millions of bucket lists around the world. But it's a city home to tens of millions of residents, who have a right to say how and where their tax dollars are spent. And relocating MSG is not a priority. Fix the outdated switch system, get more trains to and from Penn, off peak hourly service can be brutal. 

Back to the point, No one is saying tear down every iconic building. That would be absurd. We have land mark protections for a reason. The Chrysler Building and Grand Central Station are staying put, no one is asking to have them replaced. But as I said, old Penn is gone, MSG is there, local residents like it there. When ever I discuss this with local people in person, their usual response is "Why move MSG?! it's in the perfect spot!"


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## Twopsy

Long Island said:


> The Chrysler Building and Grand Central Station are staying put, no one is asking to have them replaced.


This is what almost happened to Grand Central. I think Jacky Kennedy lobbied to save Grand Central.








Source: Wikipedia

And that was not even the worst proposal, as in this proposal the train hall more or less survived.


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## Long Island

Twopsy said:


> This is what almost happened to Grand Central. I think Jacky Kennedy lobbied to save Grand Central.
> View attachment 4306513
> 
> Source: Wikipedia
> 
> And that was not even the worst proposal, as in this proposal the train hall more or less survived.


Yes I know, The now MetLife building exists behind it, but the train hall was saved. Again I said we have historical landmark laws now for a reason, this is definitely one of them, while the loss of old Penn is the smoking gun. No one is saying this is ok. The argument is what's done is done, and putting it back will not improve the lives of NYC commuters.


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## droneriot

I love it when people use "defiantly" instead of "definitely" but then it fits the context anyway. Grand Central defied a hideous redevelopment plan.


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## Long Island

droneriot said:


> I love it when people use "defiantly" instead of "definitely" but then it fits the context anyway. Grand Central defied a hideous redevelopment plan.


Given your country of origin, your compulsion to correct my grammar is not surprising. I fixed my original post.


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## droneriot

Long Island said:


> Given your country of origin, your compulsion to correct my grammar _spelling_ is not surprising. I fixed my original post.


As I said, it fits the context anyway, and actually it's always interesting to see what godawful redevelopment plans once existed but were thankfully averted. There should be an entire thread dedicated to that subject.


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## Dexter Morgan

The talk about knocking down and moving MSG is hilariously. It’s so incredibly out of touch with wants and needs of New Yorkers. It be like telling someone from Boston they should knock down and move Fenway Park. Stop wasting everyone’s time even discussing this nonsense.


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## streetscapeer

Lots of New Yorkers in the know (like me) would like it moved, and I'm sure lots wouldn't either, but don't claim that people who want it moved are just out-of-touch out-of-towners just because it's not your preferred vision. Absolutely not.


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## Long Island

streetscapeer said:


> Lots of New Yorkers in the know (like me) would like it moved, and I'm sure lots wouldn't either, but don't claim that people who want it moved are just out-of-touch out-of-towners just because it's not your preferred vision. Absolutely not.


So tell me how moving it would improve Penn Station and the surrounding areas? Why is a brand new train hall across the street and on going renovations under the arena not enough?

Why is an arena 7 stories above the train platforms 'in the way'?


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## streetscapeer

Something like this (not quite as futuristic, of course) would be possible









or even just this PAU proposal, repurposing the framework to MSG to create a modern, airy train hall











If you haven't noticed, architecture and urban design have a huge impact on people's feelings about whether they want to visit/revisit/relocate/establish themselves in a particular city. From that same perspective, the entrance and exit to that city is important. Yes the current location MSG is more convenient for suburbanites, but way more people use Penn for other reasons than to come to MSG.


Plus I really liked the plan of moving MSG right across the street. It could still be connected to Penn, convenient for Surburbanites, and be even more centrally located for city-dwellers, and of course allow for a grander Penn Station, a great compromise.

































































Source


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## Long Island

streetscapeer said:


> Something like this (not quite as futuristic, of course) would be possible
> View attachment 4353111
> 
> 
> or even just this PAU proposal, repurposing the framework to MSG to create a modern, airy train hall
> 
> View attachment 4353119
> 
> 
> 
> If you haven't noticed, architecture and urban design have a huge impact on people's feelings about whether they want to visit/revisit/relocate/establish themselves in a particular city. From that same perspective, the entrance and exit to that city is important. Yes the current location MSG is more convenient for suburbanites, but way more people use Penn for other reasons than to come to MSG.
> 
> 
> Plus I really liked the plan of moving MSG right across the street. It could still be connected to Penn, convenient for Surburbanites, and be even more centrally located for city-dwellers, and allow for a grander Penn Station, a great compromise.
> 
> View attachment 4353178
> 
> View attachment 4353179
> 
> View attachment 4353180
> 
> View attachment 4353181
> 
> View attachment 4353196
> 
> View attachment 4353198
> 
> View attachment 4353203
> 
> View attachment 4353204
> 
> Source


So an overpriced facade to make NYC more crowded than it is, to the tune of $8 Billion, all at the NY taxpayers expense? 

Seems ridiculous.


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## streetscapeer

Okay, that's your opinion. not mine or others.... but my original point is there's no need to belittle others who espouse such opinion as out-of-touch out-of-towners.


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## Dexter Morgan

streetscapeer said:


> Lots of New Yorkers in the know (like me) would like it moved, and I'm sure lots wouldn't either, but don't claim that people who want it moved are just out-of-touch out-of-towners just because it's not your preferred vision. Absolutely not.


you’re out of touch


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## BoulderGrad

streetscapeer said:


> Okay, that's your opinion. not mine or others....


"That's just like... your opinion maaan..."

The most recently build NBA stadium was Chase Center in San Francisco. It was built on essentially brownfields, but still cost $1.4bil. Even if we're just talking about building a new stadium in Mid-town Manhattan (one of the most expensive construction markets on the planet) on a block that contains MULTIPLE 20 story buildings, it would easily clear $3bil (and WTF is that render? That building is hideous). Then you want to throw in demolishing the old arena, building a whole new train hall, all perched on top of the busiest train station in North America. I'd say Long Island's number of $8bil is on the low side. That's a steep price for "but it would be sooo much prettier!". 



> but my original point is there's no need to belittle others who espouse such opinion as out-of-touch out-of-towners.


The original point was more just that the opinion is out of touch. Doesn't matter if it comes from a New Yorker or a German, or whatever. When the same nonsense opinion is incessantly repeated in the same place (seriously, it's like every other page on this thread), some belittling feels warranted.


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## streetscapeer

Dexter Morgan said:


> you’re out of touch


Could say the same to you


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## streetscapeer

BoulderGrad said:


> "That's just like... your opinion maaan..."
> 
> The original point was more just that the opinion is out of touch. Doesn't matter if it comes from a New Yorker or a German, or whatever. When the same nonsense opinion is incessantly repeated in the same place (seriously, it's like every other page on this thread), some belittling feels warranted.


I don't have time for a back-and-forth argument with you folks.. but the world's and New York's foremost urbanists have studied this ad nauseam. And many have found moving MSG viable in conjunction with many different funding schemes (like the current Penn Station reno plan). It was moved before to its current spot it can move again.

Unless you can show me actual data of people's opinion on the issue, it remains "just your opinion maaan" that I'm out of touch. I can easily say that yours is the unpopular one. But no one knows who's correct without data on the issue. At the least my opinion was shared by the vast majority of NY lawmakers 10 years ago, so at the _very least_ calling New Yorkers (and others) who want MSG out of Penn's way out-of-touch is a gross exaggeration and uncalled for.









New York lawmakers vote 47-1 to move Madison Square Garden in 10 years


Madison Square Garden now faces a 10-year shot clock to leave its midtown location.




www.nydailynews.com


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## Long Island

streetscapeer said:


> I don't have time for a back-and-forth argument with you folks.. but the world's and New York's foremost urbanists have studied this ad nauseam. And many have found moving MSG viable in conjunction with many different funding schemes (like the current Penn Station reno plan). It was moved before to its current spot it can move again.
> 
> Unless you can show me actual data of people's opinion on the issue, it remains "just your opinion maaan" that I'm out of touch. I can easily say that yours is the unpopular one. But no one knows who's correct without data on the issue. At the least my opinion was shared by the vast majority of NY lawmakers 10 years ago, so at the _very least_ calling New Yorkers (and others) who want MSG out of Penn's way out-of-touch is a gross exaggeration and uncalled for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New York lawmakers vote 47-1 to move Madison Square Garden in 10 years
> 
> 
> Madison Square Garden now faces a 10-year shot clock to leave its midtown location.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nydailynews.com


That article was long before the assessment of moving the arena was conducted. There was an article posted last summer estimating the cost of relocation at $8 billion. Once that number was reached the idea of relocation was pretty much abandoned, except for a few blue sky renderings. 

Like others said, this argument is so old and boring and we're all tired of discussing it. There is so much more about Penn and Moynihan train Hall that we can discuss. 

Anyone who wants to bump this thread simply saying "Move MSG" can you please just read back at the old pages and let the debate die.


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## streetscapeer

Move MSG


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## Dexter Morgan

Have you ever talked to a sports or music fan fan in your life? MSG is special and has arguably more cultural relevance than original Penn station ever did. it’s not called worlds most famous arena for nothing. It’s marked landmark status.


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## streetscapeer

Have you ever talked to a NY commuter that's not a sports fan in your life? They're wayyyy more numerous.

I don't really care for the original Penn being rebuilt.


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## Dexter Morgan

streetscapeer said:


> Have you ever talked to a NY commuter that's not a sports fan in your life? They're wayyyy more numerous.
> 
> I don't really care for the original Penn being rebuilt.


I travel in and out of Penn station every single day.. the arena isn’t the reason it sucks


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## streetscapeer

Ok, well I believe that it is a huge component of the sucking and many other prominent urbanists and lawmakers agree (not just 10 years ago, but today too). But we're all just "out-of-touch" lol










Editor’s note: Moving MSG could be a winner for New York City


Opening up Penn Station to let in light would be a good thing for commuters – and potentially the Knicks.




www.cityandstateny.com













Op-ed: Yes, MSG can be moved. And, yes, moving it is a good idea


A relocation not only would help create a better Penn Station, it also would help the arena, which is showing its age




www.crainsnewyork.com






The Manhattan Borough President and key Manhattan legislators have coalesced around a call to relocate Madison Square Garden from atop Penn Station as part of any plan to improve the dismal station and redevelop the neighborhood. “We maintain that moving MSG is in the best long-term interests of our city,” the legislators said in joint testimony submitted to the state’s Empire State Development Corp and posted on July 11 by one of them, State Senator Brad Hoylman.
...

[...] *Madison Square Garden should be moved. That was the unified position taken in the testimony submitted to the EDC by all of the legislators representing the neighborhood:* Manhattan Borough President Mark Levine; State Senators Hoylman, Robert Jackson and Liz Krueger; Assembly Member Richard Gottfried; Council Member Erik Bottcher and, notably, U.S. Representatives Jerrold Nadler and Carolyn Maloney, who are otherwise in a fierce battle for political survival after their congressional districts were redrawn









Relocating Madison Square Garden?


The Manhattan Borough President and key Manhattan legislators have coalesced around a call to relocate Madison Square Garden from atop Penn Station as...




www.westsidespirit.com


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## streetscapeer

And you guys might be right. Maybe it won't make financial sense to do this right now, even if wanted. Either way, I really just took issue with the dismissal of other users' opinions based on nationality done in this thread, and this comment below:



> "The talk about knocking down and moving MSG is hilariously. It’s so incredibly out of touch with wants and needs of New Yorkers."


As I've shown, it's very clear that a lot of prominent New Yorkers (and I'm sure non-prominent NYers too) really want this, so saying the above was just another cheap shot trying to shut down an argument when all else fails.

(And I originally never intended to discuss the actual merits of a MSG move, but merely responded when asked by user Long Island)


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## BoulderGrad

streetscapeer said:


> As I've shown, it's very clear that a lot of prominent New Yorkers (and I'm sure non-prominent NYers too) really want this, so saying the above was just another cheap shot trying to shut down an argument when all else fails.


People want lots of things. The argument was never against "lots of people think this would be nice." I'm sure lots of people would also love for someone to snap their fingers and suddenly New York has 3 shiny new transit linked airports, a completely rebuilt subway and commuter rail system system, affordable housing for everyone in the city, a true high speed rail line to the rest of the East Coast, and two gorgeous rail terminals in mid town Manhattan. No one is disputing any of that (minus the one dude talking about MSG being an icon, but... eh...).

What we're taking issue with is that you (and most of the articles you're linking) are talking about it like it really is just a matter of someone snapping their fingers to make it happen. We live in the world of the possible, and the amount of money required (Madison Square Garden would cost $8B to relocate, NY officials said during confidential meeting)
and the disruption it would cause to the busiest rail terminal and arena in North America make it a complete pipe dream. We're calling you out of touch because you don't seem to grasp that even though it's been obvious from the word go. And you're definitely not the first person to have this bright idea on this thread, so we're tired of explaining it:



BoulderGrad said:


> It's like groundhog day. If come November, someone hasn't posted a "vision" proposal of rebuilding the old terminal brick for brick, then we get 6 more weeks of winter.


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## Riley1066

I personally wouldn't care if MSG was there or not ... so "we" don't have to spend 8 billion to replace MSG ... just tear it down and don't bother to replace it. 

If someone later wants an MSG capacity venue in NYC somewhere after that then they can raise the money to build a new one somewhere else on their own.

The train system's needs should trump the New York Knicks' needs.


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## WillBuild

Dexter Morgan said:


> it’s not called worlds most famous arena for nothing.


Uhmm.. that's just the tagline their own marketing department uses.

Usual New York marketing 101. World's best. World's most famous. World's greatest. It's a lazy and tiresome trope.

Ben's on MacDougal has The Most Famous Pizza in the World printed on its awning. That doesn't make it so.

I don't think the arena should be moved. Just tear down the Hulu theater and the whole upper floor. But one sports fan's view doesn't represent New Yorkers. It's weird to think that it does. I was in Penn Station less than twelve hours ago too. I go to many concerts in NYC and dislike MSG as a concert venue.

I'm sure there's nostalgia especially for Knicks and Rangers fans. That's true of basically every sports venue.


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## streetscapeer

BoulderGrad said:


> People want lots of things. The argument was never against "lots of people think this would be nice." I'm sure lots of people would also love for someone to snap their fingers and suddenly New York has 3 shiny new transit linked airports, a completely rebuilt subway and commuter rail system system, affordable housing for everyone in the city, a true high speed rail line to the rest of the East Coast, and two gorgeous rail terminals in mid town Manhattan. No one is disputing any of that (minus the one dude talking about MSG being an icon, but... eh...).
> 
> What we're taking issue with is that you (and most of the articles you're linking) are talking about it like it really is just a matter of someone snapping their fingers to make it happen. We live in the world of the possible, and the amount of money required (Madison Square Garden would cost $8B to relocate, NY officials said during confidential meeting)
> and the disruption it would cause to the busiest rail terminal and arena in North America make it a complete pipe dream. We're calling you out of touch because you don't seem to grasp that even though it's been obvious from the word go. And you're definitely not the first person to have this bright idea on this thread, so we're tired of explaining it:


No, someone clearly said "out-of-touch with the wants of New Yorkers" and you're not gonna convince me to not take the statement at face value. No moving the goalposts to now "out-of-touch with the feasibility," which was never the question. I've already explained my beef, so there's no need to go in circles. I still stand by very firmly with what I said. Cheers 🍻


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## Long Island

Riley1066 said:


> I personally wouldn't care if MSG was there or not ... so "we" don't have to spend 8 billion to replace MSG ... just tear it down and don't bother to replace it.
> 
> If someone later wants an MSG capacity venue in NYC somewhere after that then they can raise the money to build a new one somewhere else on their own.
> 
> The train system's needs should trump the New York Knicks' needs.


I doubt your personal feelings are the trump card needed to move MSG. YOU may not care, buy millions of us do. If any elected officials simply 'took' MSG, tore it down, and told the Kicks and Rangers to F off, there would be riots. It would also be the end of so many political careers. Look what the Islanders fans did to Kate Murry when they lost the team to Brooklyn.

Personal feelings and pipe dreams aside, MSG is staying put. The Kicks and Rangers, and so many traveling acts will be found on the 5th floor of 4 Pennsylvania Plaza for generations to come.


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## Twopsy

It is interesting that in the US such a new building as the Madison Square Garden is already seen a landmark. Of course many great concerts happened there and some of the most important boxing fights in history, but not because of the building, but because it is in New York City. New York City was the reason why so many important events happened there. 

It reminds me of Wembley Stadium in London. It was the most important stadium in the whole country. England won its only world cup there for example and it also was the venue of a lot of historic concerts. However the Brits just demolished it and built a new arena instead. In that case the new arena was built at the same location,but it could also have been built somewhere else. 

So what I want to say is that you could tear Madison Square Garden down, build a better version somewhere else and quickly it would get its own legacy of important events. Maybe the last ever concert of David Hasselhoff will happen in the new Madison Square Garden.

More important of course is a real high speed train network in the US. New York City invest around $20 billion into its train infrastructure, but there still is no high speed train to Chicago. Imagine getting on to the train in Penn Station or Grand Central and arriving in Chicago four hours later. A Maglev could even do it in less than three hours. I am sure there would be a market for a fast connection between those two cities.


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## Long Island

Twopsy said:


> It is interesting that in the US such a new building as the Madison Square Garden is already seen a landmark. Of course many great concerts happened there and some of the most important boxing fights in history, but not because of the building, but because it is in New York City. New York City was the reason why so many important events happened there.
> 
> It reminds me of Wembley Stadium in London. It was the most important stadium in the whole country. England won its only world cup there for example and it also was the venue of a lot of historic concerts. However the Brits just demolished it and built a new arena instead. In that case the new arena was built at the same location,but it could also have been built somewhere else.
> 
> So what I want to say is that you could tear Madison Square Garden down, build a better version somewhere else and quickly it would get its own legacy of important events. Maybe the last ever concert of David Hasselhoff will happen in the new Madison Square Garden.
> 
> More important of course is a real high speed train network in the US. New York City invest around $20 billion into its train infrastructure, but there still is no high speed train to Chicago. Imagine getting on to the train in Penn Station or Grand Central and arriving in Chicago four hours later. A Maglev could even do it in less than three hours. I am sure there would be a market for a fast connection between those two cities.


People really need to read this thread before posting.


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## Long Island

Construction update on Penn Plaza.


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## MrAronymous

WillBuild said:


> I arrived yesterday on LIRR from JFK. What a difference.
> 
> This has a much bigger impact on the hundreds of thousands of daily commuters than that new Amtrak train hall to the west, or any train hall really.
> 
> What I hadn't noticed from the photos immediately is the massive difference in height. The photos show part of the old ceiling still. The LIRR corridor is almost twice as high as well as twice as wide.
> 
> There is a lot of fretting about opening up to the street to let in natural light. Or building a new train hall. But a fully underground station that is as spacious as this is perfectly practical for a massive commuter station.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing the upper concourse torn down entirely and the other corridors widened and heightened as well.
> 
> View attachment 3884403


Very interesting to see the white-on-green exit signs including the international emergency exit symbol! First time I've seen it in the US. Has the state of NY changed its regulations to allow it? Or the feds? I know that green 'exit' text signs (green light on background) have been allowed for a while and the application was only limited to more international oriented cities on the east and west coasts.


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