# Please help identify "unknown" Chinese skyscrapers



## Twopsy (Nov 26, 2012)

As I am working on my own website about skyscrapers, I already spent more than 100 days coding and researching information about all highrises over 500ft. So far I found 5,972 worldwide via sources like the CTBUH, Emporis, this forum and several maps. However China sometimes is very hard. Sometimes you find new towers there that would dominate most cities in the world, but there is no way to find out anything about them. At least if you can't speak Chinese. I wonder if there already is a thread of all those unknown buildings. I did not find any. So I decided to start this one.

I will start with a tower in Nanchang, that is so new, that it even is not visible on Baidu street view so far:









(Copyright is in the image)

It is next to what looks like a shopping mall. On one Chinese map I found it marked as "Hilton Hotel", but I can't find any more information about a new Hilton Hotel planned for Nanchang. I would expect that it would have a thread here.

This shows the location of the tower and the mall:








(Copyright is in the image)

On the right there are three more towers that potentially could be skyscrapers. I could not find out anything about those towers either. None of the known skyscraper sites has any information about them. Perhaps some Nanchang forum members could help.

I will add more "unknown" buildings if I find any.


----------



## A Chicagoan (Aug 9, 2016)

@Twopsy There is a small community of forumers active in the construction subforums who are knowledgeable about Chinese skyscrapers, perhaps they can help: @zwamborn @Khale_Xi @Munwon.

The problem is that there isn't really a dedicated space for discussion of Chinese developments, if there were it would probably be easier to coordinate efforts in researching Chinese buildings. Maybe this thread can serve that purpose.


----------



## thestealthyartist (11 mo ago)

This is quite fascinating.

I agree with this becoming the base of operations for Chinese skyscraper identification.


----------



## thestealthyartist (11 mo ago)

So I did a bit of digging on Skyscraperpage and Maps, no info on any of those buildings.


----------



## Twopsy (Nov 26, 2012)

Yes, I already tried all of that. Most of Last week I have spent on finding buildings in Changsha and was quite surprised. I was able to find 79 towers over 500 ft that even the Skyscrapercenter of the CTBUH had not listed. Finding the approximate heights and the correct names was quite a challenge. Often those towers had numbers visible from the streets on Baidu, sometimes the numbers where on the maps, but sometimes I could not find a number at all and had to indirectly guess them from the other numbers. In Changsha two towers that are just seprated by a small gap are often numbered as a single tower. However by and definition they are separate towers if each of them can stand on its own and there even is a visible gap between them. Sometimes you need a lot of detective work to find that out from a distance.

With all my findings, Changsha now has 126 highrises over 500ft and therefore ranks ninth worldwide ahead of Chocago with 123 buildings and 50 ahead of Toronto for example. Shenyang also was a city where I found a lot, but not as many as in Changsha. I wonder how many more skyscrapers are in large Chinese cities that even the CTBUH does not know yet.

All the information I collect will be downloadable for everyone for free. I think there can't be a copyright on basic building data. At the moment I only create KML files that you can view on Google Earth, but I will also look into how to create all the data in XML or Excel format. That is a KML file from Changsha for example: http://www.scraperbase.com/China/Changsha/Scraperbase_n.kml


----------



## KillerZavatar (Jun 22, 2010)

@Twopsy If possible post a google maps or Baidu or whatever link as well, it took me longer to search this location on the maps than to actually figure out what the building is.

The building is called Mingyuan Center 明园中心, it's 170m according to this news source: https://nc.news.fang.com/open/30805372.html


----------



## Twopsy (Nov 26, 2012)

Wow, thanks! Yes, that is a good idea. I probably would have included a location, but I though the giant stadium could easily be seen when you look at the satellite image. I will try and find the best was to include a location in future.

Interesting that it indeed is a Hilton Hotel like one map said.


----------



## thestealthyartist (11 mo ago)

KillerZavatar said:


> @Twopsy If possible post a google maps or Baidu or whatever link as well, it took me longer to search this location on the maps than to actually figure out what the building is.
> 
> The building is called Mingyuan Center 明园中心, it's 170m according to this news source: https://nc.news.fang.com/open/30805372.html


How did you find out?


----------



## KillerZavatar (Jun 22, 2010)

thestealthyartist said:


> How did you find out?


the mall at the podium has the same name, that's often the case for chinese skyscrapers. amap.com showed the name, they often show names for things that havn't finished construction yet.


----------



## thestealthyartist (11 mo ago)

Ah, thanks!


----------



## KillerZavatar (Jun 22, 2010)

already did the legwork, so might as well add to SSP: Mingyuan Center, Nanchang - SkyscraperPage.com

if you have another skyscraper you want info on make sure to @KillerZavatar and i'll see if i can find info.

Currently we are in a kind of renaissance though, with @Khale_Xi adding tons of skyscrapers with info daily, i try to add them (at least all U/C and completed once) to SSP as well (these are only 200m+ though, so there are vastly more 500ft skyscrapers we won't cover), so that our resources become a little more complete, but it'll take months to catch up with the years of news we have missed, it would be hard enough to keep up with just how many new projects start to begin with.


----------



## KillerZavatar (Jun 22, 2010)

Also I would be interested to learn more about your project, especially the "coding" part, did you run an algorithm over databases to copy the data out? Currently we have info being dumped on SSC, that gets filled manually to CTBUH and SSP databases and when info changes the databases all are very slow to react as users have to see the updates and manually change them, it's painfully slow and inaccurate. Coupled to that is the problem that there aren't many people with privileges to even edit these databases. If you get info from Emporis, CTBUH and SSP, how do you even start analysis what data to use with all these name inconsistencies, map markers being slightly offset, heights being slightly different, as an SSP database editor I know first hand how much painful work it is.


----------



## Twopsy (Nov 26, 2012)

KillerZavatar said:


> Also I would be interested to learn more about your project, especially the "coding" part, did you run an algorithm over databases to copy the data out? Currently we have info being dumped on SSC, that gets filled manually to CTBUH and SSP databases and when info changes the databases all are very slow to react as users have to see the updates and manually change them, it's painfully slow and inaccurate. Coupled to that is the problem that there aren't many people with privileges to even edit these databases. If you get info from Emporis, CTBUH and SSP, how do you even start analysis what data to use with all these name inconsistencies, map markers being slightly offset, heights being slightly different, as an SSP database editor I know first hand how much painful work it is.


I used the CTBUH database as a start. They have a map for every country and from there I was able to export most of the data. After that I manually added all missing buildings I could find in other sources. My basic database is just an Excel spreadsheet with columns for the most important fields. In that spreadsheet I have one column that generates a string to enter that building into an SQL database.

Coodinates had a very low quality on most websites. The problem is that most websites only used Google Maps to create a marker. I decided not to use those cordinates and instead mark all the buildings on Google Earth instead. Google Earth has the advantage that it has a time slider and therefore allows me to look at a building from many different perspective. The result are much more accurate coordinates. It took me many days to pinpoint around 6,000 skyscrapers around the world. All coordinates on my website are my own. I used the inaccurate pinpoints from the CTBUH and then dragged them to the accurate location. When all was done, I exported them to my database again.

An Excel file might not be the perfect database, but it has the big advantage that you can easily copy data from from Excel file or and XML file to another Excel file column by column.

After the data is copied to the SQL file, I use that data to render thousands of static pages with all kinds of infomation. I also render maps for every city just from the SQL database. However I do not really have a content management system that allows me to enter or edit a single building within seconds. If I add or edit some data in my Excel file, I then have to update my SQL file and render a large part or even the whole website again and then use FTP to override all files that have changed.

The advantage of the way I do it is that although the website is a few gigabytes large, I need just a few megabytes to backup the whole sites. From a few dozen PHP scripts plus the Excel file I can render the whole website except the photos. Of course I could also create a dynamic website that is much smaller, but then the website would become slower and the risk of viruses would rise.

Different names on different websites or even inconsistent names on the same website are a large problem. Sometimes though buildings my not have a real name at all. So it might be enough to "give" them a name to identify them. If there are twin towers for example and I can't really find a name, I just call them "East Tower" and "West Tower" for example.

PS: For every city I will create a map like this one from the database. That is a basic version so far. I work on it a lot more over the coming weeks or months:





Shanghai Skyscraper Map - Scraperbase.com


Shanghai Skyscraper Map



scraperbase.com


----------



## KillerZavatar (Jun 22, 2010)

it would be cool to be able to download the data as a spreadsheet instead of only a KML file. I would like to go through some data and see if I can find missing buildings. In general spreadsheets let you do a lot of calculations and let's you mess around with data, so would be cool to be available for everyone anyways. I think you should also add a page where you explain what the definition of a skyscraper is for the purpose of your website. I realized that over the years stuff changes often and wrong info stays on the databases, I think a good simple easily accessible website that focuses on completed buildings is exactly what we need and the website is really solid. Another suggestion would be for you to add the name in the original language, such as chinese for chinese skyscrapers on their page.

smaller things i came across:

Lonleliest skyscrapers in the world is misspelled
Skyscrapers in Peking (China) - Scraperbase.com is usually called Beijing in English


----------



## Twopsy (Nov 26, 2012)

KillerZavatar said:


> it would be cool to be able to download the data as a spreadsheet instead of only a KML file. I would like to go through some data and see if I can find missing buildings. In general spreadsheets let you do a lot of calculations and let's you mess around with data, so would be cool to be available for everyone anyways. I think you should also add a page where you explain what the definition of a skyscraper is for the purpose of your website. I realized that over the years stuff changes often and wrong info stays on the databases, I think a good simple easily accessible website that focuses on completed buildings is exactly what we need and the website is really solid. Another suggestion would be for you to add the name in the original language, such as chinese for chinese skyscrapers on their page.
> 
> smaller things i came across:
> 
> ...


Actually even in English it used to be "Peking". The university for example kept the name "Peking University": https://english.pku.edu.cn/
But China wants to control everything. Even how its cities are named in other languages. So it promoted "Beijing" very heavily. I think no country should have the right to decide how the country and its cities are called in foreign languages. That's why I even kept "Bombay" instead of "Mumbai. Names have become quite political, because the foeign language names were often chosen by foreign occupiers and that's why I somehow can understand why countries want to change those names. I did not use the old "Cabnton" for "Guangzhou" though, as that one is not used any more, while Beijing still is "Peking" in many languages. India renamed quite a lot of cities. The most prominent ones are "Mumbai" (Bombay), "Kolkata" (Calcutta) and "Chennai" (Madras). For me "Astana" will also never ne "Nursultan", although that even happened in their own language.

I enjoy the freedom that my own website gives me with things like that. I also decided that "Korea" is a single country that just is devided at the moment. So on my website Korea already is united again, while Taiwan is a separate country from China on my website. That differs from the CTBUH view, who see Taiwan as a part of China. As my website should be completed at the end of 2022, I already made Ukraine a part of Russia, as that will very likely be the case in the end of 2022, if we like it or not. Of course anybody, who uses my data for their own website, can easily change that.

As for the height definition, I must admit that I pretty much struggle with it. I usually have a feeling which parts of a building should be included and where the spire starts, that I do not include, but then there are buildings like Burj Khalifa, which get thinner and thinner to the top and I have to make a cut somewhere. My gut feeling is still more consistent though than the definitions by the CTBUH who sometimes call the tip a spire and sometimes an antenna, although they often look pretty much the same. For example the CTBUH does count the double spire at the top of CITIC Plaza in Guangzhou, but not the ones on top of Sears Tower (which I will also never rename to "Willis Tower"). There are a handful of churches, temples and mosques in the world that are taller than 500 feet and therefore meet the height criteria of a skyscraper. I treated them as skyscrapers, as church towers usually have multiple floors and a clear architectural top unlike TV towers that make it very hard to define where they top out. The result is that the first skyscraper in the world is a church. Again, somebody who copies my data could chose not to include churches. I also included the giant building were NASA build their rockets.

There are already websites that allow you convert any KML file to XLSX spreadsheets. This one for example: KML to XLSX Converter Online - MyGeodata Cloud
That's how I pinpointed all buildings for example and added many missing ones. Pinpointing works much better on Google Earth than on other maps, as Google Earth allows you to change the time slider and therefore see the building from many perspectives or even during construction. First I usually exported the buildings from other sources like CTBUH into a spreadsheet, converted that spreadsheet into a KML file, displayed all the buildings on Google Earth, adjusted the pinpoints, converted them back into a spreadheet and then created the strings for adding each building into an SQL database ("INSERT .. INTO..") . So the underlying database still is an Excel spreadsheet. To add or change a building, I change it in the spreadsheet, delete the whole table in the database, create it again with the new data and then I have to render all pages again that are somehow affected by that change. I do not use any content management system. All my pages are staic and do not access any database or run any PHP script. PHP and database access are only done on my notebook when I render the page. At the bottom of each page you can see when that specific page (not the whole website) was rendered the last time. I know that a dynamic website would have some advantages of course. I would only need very few dynamic pages instead of tens of thousands of static pages. Static pages load a little faster though. That at least is an andvantage. This complicated solution still works well with me, as I am the only person doing any changes on my website. Of course it will not work for a website where multiple people change stuff all the time.

Chinese names would be interesting, but then I would have to find almost 2,700 Chinese names of all buildings plus a lot of names in other languages. I decided only to ass information that I have of all buildings. That's why I also did not add addresses, architects, owners or advanced stuff like facade systems. I like the idea that you can get a lot of interesting statistics just out of the few data points name, city, country, height, floors, year and location. I also only record the usages "office", "residential" and "hotel". I also did a hard cut at 500 feet, although I am already working on adding a list of some important "baby skyscrapers". That will be my name for highrises below 500 feet.

Another very subjective data column I am working on is a ranking from 1 to 6. 1 is a boring residential building that may not be worth seeing even if you love skyscraper and 6 are the ones that every skyscraper lover should see in his lifetime is possible. The whole idea of my website was helping people who are in a city with many skyscrapers for a few days to spend their time effectively if they want to see as many skyscrapers as possible. In the past before visiting a city like Shanghai I already marked all skyscrapers of the city by hand of Google Earth with a red pinpoint and whenever I managed to take a good enough photo of that building, I changed the placemark colour to green. So every day of my vacation more building became green and I could easily see which buildings I still need to take a photo of. That preparartion for every journey always was a lot of work and with that new website, I have done that work for all cities in the world. So I could fly to Bangkok tomorrow and just need to safe the relevant KML folder of Bangkok to my smartphone. With my website, other people could do the same, even if they not agree on my height defintions.

Another very useful feature for me is one database table where I can make a list of all skyscraper cities I visited and in which year I visited them the last time and then render a KML file that shows me all the buildings in that city already existed when I was there in green and all the buildings completed since my last visit in yellow. So a lot of yellow means that I should go there again because a lot has been built since my last visit. Somebody else could render his personal world map if he entered his travel history into the database. 

I still did not find the misspelling "Lonleliest" though.


----------



## A Chicagoan (Aug 9, 2016)

Just a suggestion, but I think it’d be easier if you followed international conventions e.g. Beijing instead of Peking, Taiwan as part of China, independent Ukraine, etc. But in the end it’s your website, your choice.


----------



## KillerZavatar (Jun 22, 2010)

Yeah, city names I usually think databases should use official names, even if the new names are pretty artificial like the Nur Sultan or Kyiv change. When people create threads with Saigon in the title for example, all it does is create confusion and make it harder to search and compile results. And using Peking, but not Canton and Tsingtao feels kind of messy. That said, i am mostly interested in the database and placemarkers. And think a more open database like this is really good, so those names and border decisions aren't a bit deal. When I have time I will go through and see what buildings I can find that aren't listed.

I really enjoy the distance and radius feature on the scraperbase website, because I often complain about country borders being used for statistics to begin with as they are so widely inconsistent in size.


----------



## KillerZavatar (Jun 22, 2010)

Twopsy said:


> As for the height definition, I must admit that I pretty much struggle with it. I usually have a feeling which parts of a building should be included and where the spire starts, that I do not include, but then there are buildings like Burj Khalifa, which get thinner and thinner to the top and I have to make a cut somewhere. My gut feeling is still more consistent though than the definitions by the CTBUH who sometimes call the tip a spire and sometimes an antenna, although they often look pretty much the same. For example the CTBUH does count the double spire at the top of CITIC Plaza in Guangzhou, but not the ones on top of Sears Tower (which I will also never rename to "Willis Tower"). There are a handful of churches, temples and mosques in the world that are taller than 500 feet and therefore meet the height criteria of a skyscraper. I treated them as skyscrapers, as church towers usually have multiple floors and a clear architectural top unlike TV towers that make it very hard to define where they top out. The result is that the first skyscraper in the world is a church. Again, somebody who copies my data could chose not to include churches. I also included the giant building were NASA build their rockets.


My suggestion was that you have a clearly labeled page that explains the height definition in detail. Best with some examples like you did here as well. I am against the spire and pinnacle ruling as well, so I like to use height to tip that includes both spires and antennas or roof/crown height (which is basically what you are using, which is often hard to define, but i also prefer using it when possible)




Twopsy said:


> There are already websites that allow you convert any KML file to XLSX spreadsheets. This one for example: KML to XLSX Converter Online - MyGeodata Cloud
> That's how I pinpointed all buildings for example and added many missing ones. Pinpointing works much better on Google Earth than on other maps, as Google Earth allows you to change the time slider and therefore see the building from many perspectives or even during construction. First I usually exported the buildings from other sources like CTBUH into a spreadsheet, converted that spreadsheet into a KML file, displayed all the buildings on Google Earth, adjusted the pinpoints, converted them back into a spreadheet and then created the strings for adding each building into an SQL database ("INSERT .. INTO..") . So the underlying database still is an Excel spreadsheet. To add or change a building, I change it in the spreadsheet, delete the whole table in the database, create it again with the new data and then I have to render all pages again that are somehow affected by that change. I do not use any content management system. All my pages are staic and do not access any database or run any PHP script. PHP and database access are only done on my notebook when I render the page. At the bottom of each page you can see when that specific page (not the whole website) was rendered the last time. I know that a dynamic website would have some advantages of course. I would only need very few dynamic pages instead of tens of thousands of static pages. Static pages load a little faster though. That at least is an andvantage. This complicated solution still works well with me, as I am the only person doing any changes on my website. Of course it will not work for a website where multiple people change stuff all the time.


I agree with using google earth, I also prefer it over other maps. I always get an error when I try using the website to convert KML though: "No spatial data were recognized in your uploaded data. We are sorry. Make sure you have uploaded all relevant files of the dataset."


----------



## Twopsy (Nov 26, 2012)

Yes, sooner or later I also want to include an FAQ page that explains things like height deinitions. On some pages I already included some notes at the botton, when I felt that some more explanation is needed.

The Skyscrapercenter only shows a small list of skyscrapers to people who are not members, but I found a trick to extract much more data. They have a map for every country and from the source code of that map you can extract a list of all buildings in that country. That was a big help for me when I created the database.

I usually only use a converter for converting KML to a spreadsheet. In the other direction I do it on my own with the "CONCATENATE" function of Excel. For example I have a spreadsheet of the locations of all McDonald's branches in Japan. Column A shows the latitude and column B the longitude. 

=CONCATENATE("<Placemark><Point><coordinates>";B1;",";A1;",0</coordinates></Point></Placemark>") creates a placemark.

That trick also works with more complex placemarks that include names, descriptions and height over ground.


----------



## KillerZavatar (Jun 22, 2010)

skyscrapercenter used to be usable with a simple popup blocker, but now they don't let you click maps or other pages anymore, that website is basically dead.

Yes, I am asking for the KML to spreadsheet converter. We can download the KML files from your website, but the converter doesn't work, at least for me, always get an error when i try to upload one of your KML files.


----------

