# MELBOURNE | Tram



## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Melbourne is host to one of the world's most extensive Tram/Streetcar networks (the largest outside of europe and largest in the English speaking world). Covering a track length of 245 kms, 1813 tram stops, 27 main routes and serviced by over 500 trams. It also contains the busiest section of Tramway in the world, Swanston St.

Network map from http://www.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/...an_trams/864-22-eng-AU/metropolitan_trams.gif:









There are six different versions of tram running on the network. These include - the W-class:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/98/Ac.newtram3.jpg.JPG









The Z-class:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._tram,_Elgin_and_Lygon_Streets,_Melbourne.jpg









The A-class:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Ac_newtram2.jpg









The B1/2-classes:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/70/B2_2117.JPG









The D1/2 or Combino-class:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/D_class_tram.jpg









And the C or Citadis-class:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Ac.newtram1.jpg.JPG









Also unique (as far as my sources can confirm) to Melbourne is the restaurant tram. The Colonial Tramcar Restaurant has run since 1983 using refurbished (lots of shock absorbers) W-class trams, each seating 36 dining patrons.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ant.jpg/800px-Colonial_Tramcar_Restaurant.jpg









:cheers:


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Here's some of my own photos of Melbourne's trams. 

First up is a speeding tram on Melbourne's premier boulevard, St Kilda Rd. PICASSO is reflected in a jumble on it's front door:









Here we see a Citadis tram stopped at one of Melbourne's new 'super stops'. These are basically mini train platforms in the middle of the road, so as to eleminate a hight difference between the tram door and those wishing to get on. Especially handy for the elderly or infirm:









These two fine specimens are sitting on Swanston St infront of the Town Hall. Swanston St is the busiest section of Tramway in the world, with nine tram routes passing along it's lenghth:









A large D2 Combino-class tram on a wet Melbourne day. Of interest is the all over advertising, which covers many of Melbourne's trams:









:cheers:


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Good work. I've also seen this tram, which I gather is only a visitor:










One of the free City Circle trams, which give the tourists a running commentary on the CBD:










Heavy traffic in Swanston St., alluded to above:










Many Melbourne trams sport advertising or artwork:


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## sequoias (Dec 21, 2004)

Many of those trams look like bus on steel wheels. Nice pictures, though. That green and yellow streetcar looks like the one we have in Seattle's waterfront streetcar. It's the same color, but slightly different design.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

sequoias said:


> Many of those trams look like bus on steel wheels. Nice pictures, though. That green and yellow streetcar looks like the one we have in Seattle's waterfront streetcar. It's the same color, but slightly different design.


The one in Seattle is probably a W-class. Three of Melbourne's W-class trams are used there, maybe it's an earlier design? The W-class is the most iconic of Melbourne's trams - having been used continuously since the 1920's!


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

How many km of tram are in Melbourne and are any of these line rapid transit LRT like DART, CTrain, Hiwartha etc?


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

ssiguy2 said:


> How many km of tram are in Melbourne and are any of these line rapid transit LRT like DART, CTrain, Hiwartha etc?


Ok, do you mean route or track kms? For track km's there is 249 km of double track, so 498 km track length in total. That's the third largest track amount in the world. As for route length, this is more difficult as a lot of routes share track. I've been unable to find any reliable figure but it's bound to be above 249 kms.

And none are anything like the LRT that you've got in Vancouver. Most tram routes share roads with other vehicles, which makes this impossible. There are a few sections of completely grade seperated track (mainly old train routes converted to light rail) but these do not comprise whole routes. For a better comparison check out Toronto's streetcars.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Here you can see a to scale representation of Melbourne's tram trackage. This is courtesy of http://www.vicsig.net/trams/infrastructure/tram.gif:


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## WotaN (Jun 15, 2004)

gappa said:


> It also contains the busiest section of Tramway in the world, Swanston St.


I can be wrong, but according to my calculations there's one even more busy street in Basel, Switzerland. To compare: I was taking under consideration morning rush (7AM-10AM) and checking the maximum number of trams per hour. Here are the results (line/number of cars). First goes Swanston Str., Melbourne: 1/8, 3/6, 5/6, 6/7, 8/9, 16/5, 64/6, 67/7, 72/6, together 60 trams/hour. Steinenberg Str., Basel: 3/8, 6/8, 8/9, 11/8, 14/8, 15/8, 16/9, 17/6, together 64 trams/hour. Even if this is right, Yarra trams are still very impressive and I really enjoy this thread. Keep up the good work


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

Excellent thread. I always loved Melbourne's trams when I was growing up in Australia.

I do have a few questions though. The number of stops Melbourne quotes at 1813 is a bit misleading (I think) for as far as I know, many stops in Melbourne are half stops. They tend to be numbered as they go down a street, and one stop (say No.46) may only service traffic going Northwards, whilst a tad bit further down the street would be stop No.,47 that handles the South bound trams. In most other cities, the stops have names and this would include both directions and often both directions in a perpendicular intersection - so one stop here would have 4 "separate" stops in Melbourne.

I hope I'm being clear here.

The size of Melbourne's tram network today is impressive, although in the past, when most cities had trams, even today's size would have been dwarfed by the large ones of the world, found in places like London and surprisingly, the US - American cities had some of the largest tram networks in the world.

That said, sadly many of these cities lost their massive tram networks. In some cases like Germany (which still has one of the most prolific number of networks in the world) they not so much lost them, but downsized them as many lines were replaced by subway lines. In others, London lost it's great tram network, but it replaced it with the incredible Route Master Buses (which sadly have just started to disappear). But most US cities totally destroyed their grand networks.

Melbourne's 3rd place does vary a bit as some of it's competing cities increase their network, and then Melbourne jumps ahead again etc. At the moment, I think it's actually in 4th place. A few years ago, it was down to 6th, but has crept up again.

I have this list: (It was for European tram networks and I added Melbourne into it)
Sankt Peterburg: 692km (possibly track length, not route length)
Moskva: 418.8km
Milano: 287km
Melbourne: 249km
Katowice: 245km
Vienna: 240km
Sofia: 222km
Bruxelles: 205km
Köln: 188.5km
Berlin: 187.7km
Budapest: 156km
Bucuresti: 155km
Leipzig: 152.6km
Oslo: 152.5km
Karlsruhe: 149.9km
Düsseldorf: 146.3km
Göteborg: 144km
Kyiv: 139.9km
Basel: 139km
Amsterdam: 138km
Kharkiv: 132.2km
Dresden: 129.6km
Den Haag: 128.1km
Beograd: 127.3km
Prague: 125km
Torino: 123km
Riga: 123km
Warszawa: 119km
Lodz: 113km
Zürich: 108.9km
Odesa: 108.9km
Nizhni Novgorod: 100km

Katowice and Vienna could very well jump ahead at any stage, but then again Melbourne is probably also extending it's network. 

Finally, the Melbourne restaurant car is an excellent attraction when in the city. However, it isn't unique in the world.

Here in Frankfurt we have the Applewine Express, it isn't quite the same as it is more a tram-pub than a tram restaurant. It concentrates on the drinking side more than the eating side.

Helsinki also has a pub tram, but I guess this is different to a Restaurant one. (although another website I checked it on called it a Restaurant tram??)

Zurich has a full restaurant tram, this one is an Indian restaurant: http://www.proaktiva.ch/tram/zurich/newslog/newsitem.php?item=190307&year=2007

The city also has a Fondue tram: http://www.proaktiva.ch/tram/zurich/newslog/newsitem.php?item=101006

Geneva also in Switzerland has a Restaurant Tram.

Anyway, You probably get the point :O)

Enough of this from me. As I said, I love the Melbourne tram network, and look forward to more photos and information from you.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

^^ Thanks guys! It's always great to get new facts and figures, even if it proves me wrong.

In regards to the tram stops you're quite correct in saying that Yarra Trams counts one stop as two. Sometimes the stops are directly opposite on the road but often they are seperated, sometimes by hundreds of metres. Still they should be counted as one IMO. The new 'super stops' though, are counted as one stop - I think.

Great to see more restaurant trams out there. The one in Melb provides unlimited drinks with your meal, but a travelling pub sounds like a great idea.

Wow! 64 trams an hour in Basel, impressive. Maybe you should tell Yarra Trams their information is wrong.  

There's an old map floating about showing the proposed extensions to Melb's tram network from the 50's. If they were all implemented then Melb's system would be about twice the size it is today. Unfortunately the Freeway put paid to that. 
All of Oz's major cities had tram networks, but most of them tore them out in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Only Melbourne and Adelaide have trams left, and Adelaide has only one line (which is being expanded, yay). Oh and Sydney has recently installed a modern light rail line.


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## p5archit (Feb 25, 2003)

WOW, Melbourne really has a lot of streetcar types- not to mention it almost looks like it could be somewhere in Europe- Nice pics. thanks!

Interesting list Justme- I would have thought that Toronto would be somewhere on that list, especially considering the city's extensive streetcar network- which is growing slowly, but growing none-the-less.



> The Toronto Transit Commission operates 11 streetcar routes serving 305.8 km.


This would put Toronto at least in the top 5 area wouldn't it? 

p5


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

p5archit said:


> WOW, Melbourne really has a lot of streetcar types- not to mention it almost looks like it could be somewhere in Europe- Nice pics. thanks!
> 
> Interesting list Justme- I would have thought that Toronto would be somewhere on that list, especially considering the city's extensive streetcar network- which is growing slowly, but growing none-the-less.
> 
> ...


I think the 300km number may be the length of Toronto's routes, not tracks, but I'm not sure. I've been to T-dot and loved the Streetcars there, very distinctive. It's good to see other North American cities building some too.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

^^^ Sorry, I must add to that the list was for European tram networks only, and I added melbourne. Please forgive me for forgetting to mention that - I'm rather tired at the moment ;O)


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## WotaN (Jun 15, 2004)

Justme said:


> Sankt Peterburg: 692km (possibly track length, not route length)


According to Wikipedia, it's now (beginning 2007) only 220 - 230km. Probably 692 km referred to route length in the 80's or early 90's at its peak value.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Justme said:


> ^^^ Sorry, I must add to that the list was for European tram networks only, and I added melbourne. Please forgive me for forgetting to mention that - I'm rather tired at the moment ;O)


If that's the case I then hazard that the 300km figure is for Toronto's total amount of track. This would give it a double track length of around 150km and put it at around 11th to 14th on that previous list.


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## mrmoopt (Nov 14, 2004)

The AOA Keep talking safety tram is a D1. D1s have 3 sections. D2s have 5.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

WotaN said:


> According to Wikipedia, it's now (beginning 2007) only 220 - 230km. Probably 692 km referred to route length in the 80's or early 90's at its peak value.


Interesting. Looks like Melbourne's network has moved up to 3rd place again.

Then again, Many European cities have multiple tram networks within a single metropolitan area (and Melbourne's 245km also extends into the metropolitan area). The list above doesn't include this, and thus cities like Leipzig/Halle had 237.1km a few years ago, which could have expanded today. Although the city proper of Berlin only has 189.4km of tram (route km) within the city boundaries, within the metropolitan area there is a total of 257.9km of trams.

And the Grand Daddy of them all is the massive Rhein Ruhr metropolitan area - Germany's largest with 12.6million people. This covers an area about the size of Sydney's metropolitan area (called the Sydney Statistical Division) and has a staggering 809.7km of route tram network easily the largest in the world at a metropolitan level. These are separate networks but connected via a massive S-bahn network (suburban railway).

There could be plenty more around Europe and the world as well, but I havn't looked into this. As Melbourne (and Australia) tends to think of their cities by their metropolitan boundary's, it maybe worth keeping this in mind.

But of cause, I don't want to turn this great thread about Melbourne's wonderful network into some sort of comparison with others, so I should be quiet about all this here so we can enjoy further great pictures etc.

Sorry for the statistics ;O) I just happened to have spent a large amount of time a couple of years ago researching all this, and by bringing it up, it sort of makes me feel I didn't waste my time ;O)


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> If that's the case I then hazard that the 300km figure is for Toronto's total amount of track. This would give it a double track length of around 150km and put it at around 11th to 14th on that previous list.



Toronto is a little more complicated than that. Route kms will be scewed because there is some sharing of track going on. Total track kms (not mentioned) is a different number again, but can be scewed because there is track that is used by streecars for short-turning and getting around, but is not part of an actual revenue-generating route. 




KGB


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

^^ Thanks again everybody. 

Cal-t, yep that's a D1, silly me got confused by Mr Barry standing in the way. 

Justme, agreed - European systems are by far the largest in the world - although I wouldn't count the Rhur systems as one; they're all seperate from each other. You have to realize that in Australia the cities proper are tiny, much smaller than their North American and European contempories. Melbourne metro is made up of around thirty different cities, the tram system covers around ten-fifteen. If you just used stats from the City of Melbourne then they would be insignificantly small.

KGB, it's very difficult to find solid data on total route length for any city, as it's difficult to calculate due to track sharing etc. I wonder if the statistics include non revenue earning track or not? There would be quite alot of it in Melb too, and knowing Yarra Trams they'd do anything to boost their number to make themselves out to be the biggest/best.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Yeah, I think they look very 1940's glamourous. As far as upgrades go, there are actually billboards around the city asking for public input regarding what they want in a new streetcar. After 2 decades of little funding, we just got a $17.5 Billion dollar transit package over 12 years. Part of the package is 123km of new streetcar routes and new streetcars. Low floor and more silver (to match the subway) looks likely.

In Melbourne, you call them trams? Is Melbourne the only city in Australia with trams? It's a shame because they really add to your city. What company used to make/design them in Australia? That's a shame too. Canada's very lucky to have Bombardier: their rail division has 3 plants here.

My parents adore Melbourne, and told me I'd really feel comfortable there. Looks like I'll have to plan a trip.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

gappa said:


> I wish Melbourne had less variation in design and colouration like Toronto. I also wish that we still made/designed our own Trams here. I guess I should be happy that we've still got a system at all; just look what happened to pretty much every other English speaking city in the world!


Year it is quite sad. But there was a reason for it in those days. London had around 555km of tram lines (route length) by the 1930's, mostly served by those splendid double decker trams. But already then the bus was starting to creep in and was seen as more suitable. Trams in those days were a lot different to the ones we have today. The electrical contacts often fell off the power cables and it was a very dangerous job to re-hook them. Staff needed to be placed at major intersections to assist in switching lines. The tram in those days was far less comfortable than a bus, less flexible and needed constant repairs to tracks.

It's no wonder that many countries saw a brighter future with buses. Trams then simply were not as technologically good as they have become now.

The only positive aspect with the demise of the tram globally that I can think of, was in London, which replaced the double decker trams with the iconic and remarkable Routemaster double decker bus. These buses eventually became more iconic than any tram in the world and are loved by almost everyone. Sadly, they are finally on their way out now.

Whilst the tram disappeared from most English speaking countries (with a few exceptional English speaking cities including Melbourne and Toronto) oddly, many other European countries kept their networks. Germany is one country where nearly every city (and many small towns) still retain their tram networks. They are not as large as they used to be, because many lines have since been replaced with proper metro's or u-bahns, but it is still more common to arrive in a city and see a tram network than not.

Probably the most amazing network in the world is in Lisbon, Portugal. It is far smaller than it once was (due to the subway system being developed) but what is left is still (in my opinion) the most amazing network - mainly due to the incredibly old historic trams that trundle over the steep hills and narrow lanes. There is nothing quite left in the world like it.

Although I have to admit, those gerogous W-Class trams in Melbourne also still fill me with a feeling of delight.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

isaidso said:


> Yeah, I think they look very 1940's glamourous.
> 
> In Melbourne, you call them trams? Is Melbourne the only city in Australia with trams? It's a shame because they really add to your city.



Adelaide has one tram line, from the seaside at Glenelg to the CBD: it runs on it's own right of way (like some melbourne lines) and is currently being extended through the CBD

Sydney has a line from Central Station to Lilyfield: it mainly runs on a converted freight line. There's also a short tourist line in the Royal National Park.

Bendigo & Ballarat have tourist lines retained from their former networks: Bendigo's amounts to many km, extending across the inner city.


I think most of the W-Class trams were constructed at the Tramways Workshops at Preston (correct me if I'm wrong). The Z & A class were put together in Dandenong, a Melbourne suburb (I think?)


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

gappa said:


> I wish Melbourne had less variation in design and colouration like Toronto.


I don't ... I enjoy the variety of steel-wheeled vehicles coursing through our streets ...



gappa said:


> I also wish that we still made/designed our own Trams here. I guess I should be happy that we've still got a system at all; just look what happened to pretty much every other English speaking city in the world!


Agree here. Btw, Gappa, in your original summary of tram rolling-stock here you've missed out one model of tram that routinely courses our streets ...



















These 5000 series trams have appeared in a couple of photos in this thread, but no-one has identified them specifically!

For those that haven't noticed:


trams numbered below 2000 (W, A , Z and very ancient trams) are rigid vehicles that don't bend in the middle;
B series trams are numbered 2000 up and are double units
C & D series trams are numbered 3000 & 3500 up & are triple units
and then there's the 5000 series: which are pentuple units (4 joints)

I guess this one should be numbered 4000 and something, but it isn't:










While I'm at it, here's where most Swanston St. trams end: at Melbourne University. An old photo, you can still see the former M/Tram livery here held over from the former "Melbourne & Metropolitan Tramways Board".










There was a stage when Melbourne trams (and country trains) went orange, white and grey ... we've also had trams decorated like pakistanii buses (last year) and fleet of trams decorated by the artists of the city ...


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## invincible (Sep 13, 2002)

W Class trams are good to look at and probably good for tourists, but there's a reason why they're restricted to a handful of routes because they are quite slow and aren't exactly very friendly for the elderly or people with stuff to carry, or anyone who just wants a quick and comfortable ride from A to B. The Disability Discrimination Act requires that all routes be wheelchair accessible within a couple of decades anyway, so eventually they'll probably be relegated to the City Circle route.



> ^ Interesting, as they look like normal stops over here. I can't remember the current system for Melbourne, how is it again?


The old type of stop was the safety zone, which is just a fence in the middle of the road to separate passengers from traffic.They're quite narrow and it's pretty bad in the CBD (at the few remaining stops of this design) where you have to push through a crowd of people to get out of the stop.

The most common stop is still the sign on the side of the road, where you just stand on the road as the tram approaches. This accounts for almost every stop outside the CBD and its immediate surrounds.

Colour schemes: The green colour scheme is outdated, IMO. The Yarra Trams corporate colours don't look that good on the boxy designs of the older trams but it's great on the newer models. And as pointed out, it wasn't really that widespread, except for that period in the late-80s and 90s. The Z class trams were delivered in orange, the suburban railways were blue and yellow, then orange and grey, then green and yellow, then green and blue (for the M>Train half), then blue and yellow once again. Country trains went from blue and yellow to orange and grey to the current blue and red (or purple and green on the newest DMUs). And the buses just wore the colours of whichever company had the contract to operate the route.

Anyway, the new Combino tram doesn't have a class or a number following the existing scheme because it's a demonstration vehicle from Lisbon, which has since gone back home. Yarra Trams has a habit of getting other cities' trams sent over for trials - Bombardier's Eurotram was also in Melbourne a few years ago, and there were pictures of a Flexity tram from Adelaide doing trial runs in Melbourne recently.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Just to clear up any problems regarding the Melbourne tram fleet while the instigator is away, here's a summary from Yarra Tram's Historical site



















There's a problem with numbering the "A" Series trams here, but you'll note there's 21 5-car Combinos on the tracks (or more?) which is why I find them so easy to photograph.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Nice work guys.

On the colour scheme I was thinking of maybe tying it in with the Metlink scheme -blue for trains, green for trams and orange for buses. So trains would be blue, as they are now, with a yellow stripe. Trams green, like they used to be, with a yellow stripe. And buses orange with a yellow stripe; although orange buses sound terrible.

Just a thought...

Edit: And yes, come to think of it the new trams might look a little weird in green, like the old ones do in white. Still they should at least trial it. Maybe a green and yellow stripe like the connex blue and yellow stripe? This leaves the rest of the vehicle free for advertisments etc. Although on that, I would like a limit to the amount of trams able to sport ads. Maybe one in ten?


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## mrmoopt (Nov 14, 2004)

currently liveries look fine.
If anything, all the buses should be make the smartbus colours, without the smartbus decors (so silver base, orange and black) so that liveries are consistent across operators.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Can't say I really warm to Yarra Tram's livery: the old MMTB green & yellow still looks really "Melbourne" to me, and the M/Tram colours have a bit more finesse than Yarra's "fishmonger" look.

I also enjoy the surprise of seeing something decked out in Cadbury's purple or whatever rolling down the street ... but the art-work ones were really something special.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

On that here's some (poor quality) pictures of the Karachi tram:

http://www.yarratrams.com.au/default.jsp?xcid=1605









http://www.melbourne2006.com.au/M2006/Homepage+News/20060325+Karachi+tram.htm









All from http://www.melbourne2006.com.au/In+the+News/Photo+Galleries/Karachi+comes+to+Melbourne/Default.htm :


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

^^ Well done!

back in the Cain/Kirner Years, there was a stage when we had dozens of trams uniquely decorated by local artists ... including, for instance, the notorious Michael Leunig, but I haven't found this yet by googling it.


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## invincible (Sep 13, 2002)

Some advertising liveries are also very imaginative.

The Deep Spring one with the naked bodies below the windows come to mind.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

invincible said:


> Some advertising liveries are also very imaginative.
> 
> The Deep Spring one with the naked bodies below the windows come to mind.


No photos? do I have to imagine it?


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## BleakCity (Jun 22, 2006)

Gappa said:


> There's an old map floating about showing the proposed extensions to Melb's tram network from the 50's. If they were all implemented then Melb's system would be about twice the size it is today. Unfortunately the Freeway put paid to that.


Do you know if it's posted on the web - I think I've seen it before but I'd love to see it again.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

ZH836301 said:


> Do you know if it's posted on the web - I think I've seen it before but I'd love to see it again.


I have a map here of proposed tramways extensions to the MMTW dated 27/8/1933: while I can find the hard copy, the soft-copy evades me, and tonight my printer/ multifunction unit has been trying unsuccesfully to shut down for several hours ... so I can't scan it without rebooting.

[edit & reboot]:










Some comments upon the map above:


at that stage, the only electric trams that went to the middle of the city were those by Batman Avenue/Swan Street: everyone else had to change to a cable tram when they hit the inner suburbs.
orbital routes had already been planned for.

Having lived in the western suburbs most of my life, note that:


Footscray was not yet attached to the rest of the tram system at that time

Footscray never-the-less had three tram-lines of its own (an early memory of mine is returning from a dentist with my father with my mouth bleeding after dark after my first tooth extraction in the middle of winter in one of those four-wheeled trams)

The line through Maribyrnong/Highpoint had not yet been built, but a more direct line to Moonee Ponds was proposed. The line that eventuated arose because of the multiplicity of Munitions Factories and other Defene Facilities that arose in the Maribyrnong area around WWII


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## BleakCity (Jun 22, 2006)

Thanks Yardmaster, that's exactly the map I was looking for - terrific.

So much vision in those days - makes me sad thinking of what could have been.

The Footscray network would certainly have been viable today with all the transport usership in the area. The map also shows the former Footscray routes, explaining the orphaned commercial areas and relatively high quality bus services that exist along these routes today. I could see a Ballarat Rd route being quite popular today. Same for the Nicholson St/Ascot Vale route. Also shows the proposed system for Williamstown, which I think was proposed to link with the Footscray system. Unfortunately some of the western routes are hard to make out, but I think the Somerville Rd tram continues down Millers Rd to Mason St, and the tram from Spotswood along Melbourne Rd to Newport.

Kensington gets a tram, and the main link between the Footscray system is made via Dynon Rd (via Arden St not Nth Melbourne station) and Ascot Vale, rather than Maribyrnong. Pity some of the cable routes were not retained. North Melbourne to Spencer St, Lygon St, and Johnston St would all be popular routes. I think Port Phillip Council is interested in returning cable trams to Bay St. Another lost route was the Point Ormond (Elwood) to Elsternwick section of the Glen Huntly Rd tram - could have made a good link to the 96 today.

Some things were also done differently than as shown - no Maribyrnong Rd/Mt Alexander Rd link, rather a Maribyrnong Rd/Moonee Ponds link; trams use Fletcher St rather than Buckly St at Essendon. Was also the possibility of a six-way tram junction at Camberwell. There's a few interesting little routes/links - such as a branch from Riversdale Rd into Auburn Rd terminating at Woodburn Rd, Kambrook Rd Caulfield, Willsmere Rd Kew, Canarvon Rd Strathmore, and Montague St Sth Melbourne. The Montague St tram, with the Bay St/City Rd tram, as well as the Hoddle St/Punt Rd tram, may have prevented their respective roads from becoming clogged traffic sewers. In addition to some nice density fillers in the northeast, such as Station St Fairfield, Belmore Rd Balwyn, and Barkers Rd Hawthorn, there is also an nice extensive system for the southeast which would likely get great usership if it existed today.

Another thing it shows are all the little extensions that are constantly talked about, yet never constructed. The 3 reaches Oakleigh (remember no Chadstone SC or Monash Fwy existed at the time), 5 continues to Darling (should continue further to Carnegie 67), 6 makes it to Ashburton, 112 to Reservoir, and 55 further north towards Glenroy. There's also a great number of cross-city links including: the popular Caulfield to Ivanhoe to Essendon proposal (utilising route 72 inpart), Bell St trams, Dawson St trams, Orrong Rd trams, and North, Centre, and South Rd trams.

No doubt these would make great routes today and hopefully with the continued public transport push many become reality in the future.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Thanks for that Yardmaster, that's the one I've seen. If you elect me at the next election I'll implement them all! (Plus free beer for everyone.)


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

^^ OK, gappa, will do.

Some more Melbourne Tram Pix:


Discouraging fare-evasion:











Encouraging civic spirit:











Serving the City Centre ("Town Hall")











And the top end of town:




















One for the Portuguese:











& One for the Seattle Mob:











A "busy" shot" or two:




















And the centre of town:


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

I love the Pakistani decorated one. What a great idea, a bit of Karachi in grey old Melbourne.

It would be cool if that was permanent, and if they decorated a few more trams in the style of Filipino buses, and other styles from around the world.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Grey Old Melbourne has done a lot in this spirit: giving artists a tram and few cans of paint for instance; resturaunt tram; theatre tram ...


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Here's a look inside one of Melbourne's Citadis trams. Things to note are the ticketing machine and validators:


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

^^ For those who don't understand the local lingo, the guy in the brown jacket on the right is a "Validator" ...


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

From yesterday - a rare occurence on Melbourne's streets.



Perth4life said:


> A tram driver was critically hurt and 11 passengers were taken to hospital after a collision between two trams and a car on one of Melbourne's busiest roads this morning.
> 
> Yarra Trams says up to 20 of the 25 people in the trams were injured, including the driver of the tram that slammed into the rear of another, causing major damage to both vehicles.
> 
> ...


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

raising some questions about privatization there...

hmmm...those of you in melbourne, how do you feel about the public transportation being privatized?

In Toronto's case, everything is under government control...which in typical in much of North America (with a few exceptions)...whereas other parts of the world see a lot of privatization.

Here in Malaysia, they are slowly moving away from privatization as the government operators (e.g. RapidKL, RapidPenang) and asset owner (Prasarana) are government-owned companies. The national railway may return to government control in a few years....

Cheers, m


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

^^ if you ask me, it's a bit of a joke. In fact, more than a joke.


[*]The PT system hasn't been truly privatised, only it's operations have: and the basic infrastructure has remained a state responsibility.

In this country, we a have a quaint tradition: we sometimes throw out the Government, and elect a new one of the opposite persuasion, even if they actually really only do much the same thing.

So it wasn't the present Government that "privatised" the "public transport" system here: it was its predecessor, the Kennett Government.

I'll give you a few examples of why I think this arrangement is a joke:


the Government still essentially funds all major developments in the system, and is held to account if they're not completed on time

a major private partner (National Express) who was running three of the five major components of the PT system here in Victoria just managed to walk out of the contracts where it was supposedly going to deliver us better service

whenever there are service delivery problems, the Opposition blames the Government, the Government blames the private provider, and the public and the media blames one or the other, depending upon their political persuasion. The provider blames the Government of the day.

the public still expects "public transport", and looks to the Government to provide that.

That said, the tram system has run pretty well, leaving aside the demise of M/Tram ....


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## invincible (Sep 13, 2002)

In theory, there's nothing wrong with the concept, but there's just too much buck passing going on.

The fact that most of the general public are generally quite misinformed about how things work doesn't help and the media often only makes things worse. For example, Connex aren't responsible for most of the things the public blames them for. The most significant cause of cancellation are usually things which are unpreventable by the transport authorities - suicides, other accidents (someone was dumb enough to get taken out by the side mirror on a moving train recently) and major vandalism (attempted copper wire theft) tend to cause lengthy delays.

It's also worth keeping in mind that before privatisation, things were even worse. There were massive strikes, and trains were even less on time with even higher cancellation rates. Vandalism was also a big problem - today you will hardly ever see graffiti on a train which isn't at least smudged out (to be properly cleaned later). It's just that back then, all the statistics weren't regularly reported and displayed. I also believe that the automated announcement system hasn't been around for all that long - people probably notice more when the voice on the PA tells them the moment a train comes late or gets cancelled. No announcement for cancelled trams, but there are now LCD screens installed at various stops which has the same effect.

Splitting the tram and train networks into two were just stupid though. Okay, Japan Railways managed to pull it off well somehow but it was just pointless in Melbourne.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Here you can see a bit of Melbourne's PT (metlink) sinage. Blue for trains, green for trams and orange for buses.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

A pic of the Colonial Tramcar Restaurant.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

The problem with trams is that if there's an obstruction ahead they have trouble getting around it. This is an obstruction:

Tram meets car....










Tram likes car....










Love hurts!


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

A D-class:


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

This shot shows the Melbourne University tram terminus - the largest in Melbourne:


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Here you can see the interior of a D1 combino.


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## brisbanite (Dec 11, 2007)

Good photos Gappa, thanks mate.


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## invincible (Sep 13, 2002)

gappa said:


> Here you can see the interior of a D1 combino.


Someone wrote to the MX complaining about the "lack of rails to grab onto in those new trams". No idea how that could become a problem, both models are pretty generous.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

This here is St Kilda station tram stop. It was the terminating station for the old heavy rail line, which has now been converted to light rail. The trams continue on the street from here.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

From The Age:

*State to lease French trams*
February 7, 2008 - 3:45PM

Victoria will lease five new trams from France in an effort to ease the pressure on Melbourne's public transport system.

The first low-floor tram is due to arrive in Melbourne by ship next week, and all five are expected to be running by September.

Public Transport Minister Lynne Kosky said the trams would be leased until December 2011, ahead of the Government's tram procurement program in 2010-2011.

"While patronage growth on trams remained relatively steady at 3% over the past decade, it climbed to 5.3% in the 12 months to September last year," Ms Kosky said.

"When the rare opportunity to lease these trams arose, we acted quickly to secure them."

The five trams will be leased from the town of Mulhouse in France by Yarra Trams through its French shareholder Transdev, which operates Mulhouse's tram network.

The new trams, which can carry up to 240 passengers, will run on route 96 (East Brunswick-St Kilda Beach), allowing other trams on that route to be reallocated to other lines, increasing capacity across the network.

The trams are equivalent in size to the longest trams now running in Melbourne.

"During peak hour these five new trams will be able to carry up to 1,200 people which is equivalent to taking more than 1000 cars off Melbourne's roads," Ms Kosky said.

Opposition transport spokesman Terry Mulder said the government had taken too long to boost the tram fleet.

''(Premier) John Brumby has sat on his hands and failed off Labor's own bat to order any further new trams for almost nine years,'' Mr Mulder said.
Mr Mulder said 280 of Melbourne's 487 trams lacked airconditioning and more than 390 did not provide easy access for seniors or disabled people.
"Labor has an $842 million surplus. Why has it failed to renew the tram fleet for so long?," he asked.

AAP


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Thanks to:



Blabbyboy said:


> http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/new-trams-delayed-already/2008/02/15/1202760548627.html
> 
> From The Age:
> New trams delayed already
> ...


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## Shado (Apr 16, 2003)

allurban said:


> raising some questions about privatization there...
> 
> hmmm...those of you in melbourne, how do you feel about the public transportation being privatized?


The problem with doing that to essential public services is that if the company running them goes bankrupt (as did happen in Melbourne). The governement has to bail them out or lose the system entirely. The reason you privatise something is so that while the government loses the profits, they are also supposed to lose the risk. In the case of essential services, they lose the profits but retain the risk.


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## webeagle12 (Oct 1, 2007)

> However, customs officers delayed the unloading after discovering leaves on the roof of one of the trams. The leaves have now been incinerated.


:wtf: (I just had a flashback to the security in our country USA :fiddle


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## Xabi (Nov 8, 2004)

Very nice city views!


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Thanks to:



The Collector said:


> http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/8m-plan-to-tackle-tram-jam/2008/02/18/1203190740169.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

webeagle12 said:


> :wtf: (I just had a flashback to the security in our country USA :fiddle


Australia has very stringent quarantine laws. Most biological matter is not allowed into the country to protect it's environment and agricultural production.


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## ovem (Mar 25, 2007)

great network... well done


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

^^ Another view of the same intersection above: at least 9 trams here ...










Close up:










Further down Flinder's St: many trams carry advertising; this one is plugging an exhibition of the works of one of Australia's most famous painters:










This was wasted on me, since I have no idea what "NIB" is:










At the corner of Flinders & Spencer: the trams go under the trains ....


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

nib is a health insurance provider if my memory serves. Great photos yardmaster.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Hmmmm, I think that their list is a bit too North American biased.



tayser said:


> http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/tram-96-travels-tracks-to-glory/2008/03/07/1204780065938.html
> 
> Tram 96 travels tracks to glory
> 
> ...


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Route 96 at least gives you traffic-free travel between Southbank & St. Kilda- a distance of c. 5 km along the old railway easement, with just one level crossing to contend with in that distance.

I would have proposed route 55, which runs past Victoria Market before travelling a couple of kilometres across the open grasslands of Royal Park on its own easement past the Melbourne Zoo, or route 110, which follows Australia's first railway easement to Port Melbourne: where there's usually at least a trans- Bass Strait ferry bound for Tasmania towering over the terminus, and sometimes a cruise liner.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

According to the recently released Eddington report on Melbourne's Transport, Melbourne now has the greatest route mileage of any tram/light-rail system in the world, since St. Petersberg has shut down a few km. The figure quoted is 240 route-km of double track.

The document also suggests (but doesn't assert!) that St. Kilda Rd. Melbourne is the busiest tram route in the world, with 1,400 trams passing through the Domain Interchange each day, carrying 75% of passenger traffic along the street. The figure of 40,000 passengers is used (at Domain) ... but I'm not exactly sure what it refers to. Busiest stop: Federation Square, a view of which appears a few postings back in this thread.


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## invincible (Sep 13, 2002)

Here's a few of Bourke St (taken in the late afternoon, excuse the image noise):

This is the end of the road for regular traffic:









The pedestrian mall:

















B class tram:

















Elizabeth St:









Platform stop:









The track does get a bit hilly:









Swanston St:









Old style stop:









Trams do get a bit full:









And our bizarre traffic manoeuvres:


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Here's a few of Yarra Trams looking busy (I hope!):

St Vincent's Plaza: a confluence of lines here:










... heritage tram shelter preserved but up-to-date info never the less ...










The centre of town: at the western end of Flinders St. station:










Looking north:










Looking west:










Looking east: an older shot; not a lot of trams in this shot, but a lot of station.










On the St. Kilda Rd/ Swanston St. route: 1400 trams a day, busiest in the world:
(the things in the foreground count as two trams)










75% of traffic (passengers) on this- Melbourne's main north-south axis- is carried by tram.










previously posted, but relevant here ...










The terminal at the University of Melbourne:



















Facilities at the terminal to turn the trams around ... complete with flower-boxes and rubbish-bins!


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## AG (Sep 12, 2002)

How many turnaround bays are there to the north of the Melbourne Uni stop?


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

^^ there are three. So far as I can work out, they must handle close to 700 turnarounds per day.


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## Chilenofuturista (May 24, 2005)

Judging by the pictures above I think I love Melbourne. :drool:


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

^^ thanx, you inspired me to add another photo to my last posting.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

A few corrections to the above:

In posting #101 above, The "Melbourne Age" reports that the tram system carries 50 million passengers per year. According to the recently released Eddington Report, the figure is 150 million: which is also a ball-park figure from what I know to be the case.

So the reporter concerned was either too light on the keyboard, or misunderstood was being said to him: it's possible that 50 million passengers per year travel by tram along the street concerned, but I'm only speculating.

In posting #106 the same paper asserts that 19 trams service the 96 route: again, a clanger. There may be 19 services an hour at peak (in either direction), but I can't see how 19 vehicles could maintain the service.On the shortest, slowest, and least-serviced line on the system (Route 78) there were eight trams operating prior to peak Tuesday afternoon: I don't think so; Mr. Lucas.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Thanks for keeping the thread alive guys.


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## Henri (Jan 2, 2007)

Quelqu'un aurait des photos des 2 tramways Citadis Alstom venus de Mulhouse roulant maintenant à Melbourne?


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

^^ pardon mon francais ... could you translate?


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## Augusto (Mar 3, 2005)

Yardmaster said:


> ^^ pardon mon francais ... could you translate?


Henri requests pictures of the trams that Melbourne has rent from Mulhouse (France). Mulhouse has two many trams because its network's development is late while all the tram set ordered are ready. So some of them have been rent to Buenos Aires and Melbourne. 
There are pictures of those trams on the previous page but I guess Henri would like to see them in Melbourne's streets..


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

^^ I understand ... Melbourne has considerable capacity probems at the moment, both on the "tram" and the "rail" systems, which has resulted in hauling in rolling-stock from elsewhere: as soon as photos are available (the 4000 series?) they'll be posted here.


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

Yardmaster said:


> ^^ I'd have to agree that someone was trying to pull the wool over our eyes here ...


The underlying fact is true. Just that this chart should only have the street systems (like Berlin) for a fair comparison. About 400-500 m is a good distance for tram stops, subject to circumstances of specific locations.


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

sfgadv02 said:


> Very nice, I must make a visit to Melbourne ASAP! Thanks for the photos.


my visit starts in the middle of this July! Ive been waiting for 5 years for this! :banana: :cheers:

Cheers, m


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Good for you Allurban!

could I suggest:


route 100 (Station Pier Light Rail via Collins St to Box Hill)
route 16 (Kew to University via St. Kilda and Swanston St., the busiest route in the world)
route 65 (Domain to Melbourne Zoo, at least: a roll through Royal Park)
route 78/79 (North Richmond to Prahran/St. Kilda, really ancient, but historic)
the City Circle (it's free)
route 96 (St Kilda Light Rail to Melbourne Museum via Bourke Street)

You can work these in together- and with the train system- despite all the complaints here, once you've bought a ticket, it's valid for 2 or 3 hours or a day, on all trams, trains and buses.


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

allurban said:


> my visit starts in the middle of this July! Ive been waiting for 5 years for this! :banana: :cheers:
> 
> Cheers, m


Just let us know what you want to see - we'll be happy to answer any questions.

The City Circle tram might be good for you as well. It's free and goes around the outside of the CBD. It's really just a tourist thing - it's slow and old and doesn't really work for commuters as there's a train doing the exact same line below the ground. But it gives you a good idea of the city; where things are etc. Some nice scenery too kay:


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Melbourne will always give you a surprise with it's trams ...


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## thicken (Jan 29, 2009)

very nice


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

With the changeover to a new operator (KDR Melbourne), Melbourne's "Yarra Trams" have acquired a new livery. On the right, the older paint-scheme, while the two trams on the left show the new scheme:










This is Collins Street, with the main regional railway station- Southern Cross- under the wavy roof in the background.

An older B-Class tram in the new livery, which makes the doors (and the tram) more obvious: the B-Class were the first articulated tram here, manufactured locally.










A Citadis C-class outside the "Gothic Bank", a couple of blocks further down Collins Street:










After doing a ninety-degree turn: into Swanston Street. The C-Class trams are now crossing the street: one on the left.










Swanston Street is allegedly the busiest tram route in the world. If you look through the late afternoon autumn haze (or smog: seems to remember that night the sun was fiery red long before dusk from "controlled bushfires" to the west) there are heaps of trams up there: including a Siemens articulated D1 Class (3522) & older unarticulated A & Z Class trams.


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

city_thing said:


> Just let us know what you want to see - we'll be happy to answer any questions.
> 
> The City Circle tram might be good for you as well. It's free and goes around the outside of the CBD. It's really just a tourist thing - it's slow and old and doesn't really work for commuters as there's a train doing the exact same line below the ground. But it gives you a good idea of the city; where things are etc. Some nice scenery too kay:


thanks...I still need to get a good sense of where to stay in Melbourne. I'll be there for a week and Im also planning some outside day trips. 

Right now I am thinking 1 day each to the NE, SE, NW & SW, then 3 days in the city.

What kind of weather can I expect and are there any construction projects I should watch out for in the 3rd week of July?

Cheers, m


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## Dean (Sep 11, 2002)

allurban said:


> thanks...I still need to get a good sense of where to stay in Melbourne. I'll be there for a week and Im also planning some outside day trips.
> 
> Right now I am thinking 1 day each to the NE, SE, NW & SW, then 3 days in the city.
> 
> ...


Just stay on the CBD or Southbank and do your trips from there. Visit the info centre at Federation Square to find out what you need for all your day trips. it has everything you'll need.

The end of July is the middle of winter so expect overcast days with 12-15 degree temps. It'll be cool, but not the frost bitten cold you're accustomed to.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

allurban said:


> thanks...I still need to get a good sense of where to stay in Melbourne. I'll be there for a week and Im also planning some outside day trips.
> 
> Right now I am thinking 1 day each to the NE, SE, NW & SW, then 3 days in the city.
> 
> ...


If you want to go out of town, assuming you are talking about using public transport could I suggest:


SW: rail to Geelong then bus along the Great Ocean Road, either returning from Apollo Bay, or proceeding on pas the 12 Apostles to Warnambool & back by rail (2nd option only available some days, bus stops at tourist highlights). Private tour buses also do this.
NW: Bendigo/ Echuca
NE: Albury/Wodonga (if it's running)
SE: go west instead, to Ballarat

Some photos from the 96 tram route: St. Kilda-city-East Brunswick:

Outside Southern Cross Station:










In the middle of town:










The tram/ light rail route runs along a converted railway line to the beach at St. Kilda. South Melbourne station:










Approaching the terminus at St. Kilda:










Different line, but not to be missed: the terminus at Melbourne University:


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

A few shots of Melbourne's trams for those with limited bandwidth but good eyes:

Flinders Street Station: this is where all the action is:

Flinders street runs East-West through here, beside the station:










And Swanston Street, allegedly the busiest tram route in the world, crosses it, running north south:




























One block- 10 chains- 200 metres- up the road is Collins Street, also heavily trafficed by trams. Various routes use different types of vehicles: you're more likely to see these "B" class trams here.

Before and after shots: the city is being equipped with raised platforms with shelters and electronic signage.










Most Collins Street services run to St. Vincent's Plaza: this is a double junction where some services terminate.










The Swanston street trams mostly terminate at Melbourne University: 










The City Circle route uses heritage "W" class trams: travelling on this service is free.


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## Cherguevara (Apr 13, 2005)

Really great pictures, but I've got a few questions about the system that hopefully someone can answer.

How much of the Melbourne tram network is segregated and how much runs in traffic? 

How far out of the city centre does the longest line go?

Were any tram lines lost in the period when other cities ripped up their networks or is the network essentially the same as it was in its peak?


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Cherguevara said:


> Really great pictures, but I've got a few questions about the system that hopefully someone can answer.
> 
> How much of the Melbourne tram network is segregated and how much runs in traffic?


some of the network is segregated. Melbourne has fairly wide main thoroughfares generally, and in a few cases the trams run down their own dedicated tracks in the median strip, in a few instances under their own avenue of trees. My local route runs on an easement entirely of its own for a couple of km or so, and a notable off-street route is through Royal Park past the Zoo.

There are also two lines which are converted railway lines- "the Light Rail"- which manage to get up a bit of speed.

I'd guess at most 15% of the network is on its own easements (inc. those separated from other traffic by barriers in the middle of a road).



Cherguevara said:


> How far out of the city centre does the longest line go?



The longest lines are:


22 km to Vermont South
19.5 km to Bundoora

Route-length in each case is somewhat longer, since tram routes typically start at somewhere busy in the inner suburbs, run through the city then out to the middle or outer suburbs on the opposite side. Very few services actually terminate ion the CBD.

Most routes would be more like half that length: maybe a bit more on average.



Cherguevara said:


> Were any tram lines lost in the period when other cities ripped up their networks or is the network essentially the same as it was in its peak?


Some were, but only a very small proportion (I could list them). Most notably, the tramways commissioner of the times embarked on a project of setting the lines in concrete (which you can see in the photos above!).

The central CBD used to have 5 east-west routes; now it only has 4 (the fifth was never converted from cable to electric). Probably just as well, since this is the only street that now carries lots of cars and buses.

This has been more than offset by tramway extensions that have occured from the 1980's on: off the top of my head, I can think of


5 extensions in the inner city (e.g. in the new "Docklands" area)
4 extensions out in the suburbs (including the 2 long lines just cited)
2 conversions from heavy-rail to light-rail/tram

I'd guess there's more route length now than there ever was.

Some of the photos are in this thread- somewhat larger- further back. I was experimenting with miniatures, & thought I'd try them out here ...


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Some more little photos of Melbourne's Tram network.

*Firstly*, that north-south axis (allegedly the busiest in the world):

At Flinders Street Station (crossing the River Yarra over Princes Bridge):










Domain Interchange, about 3km south: Left: platform 3, right: platform 1.










Opposite direction: towards Melbourne & RMIT Universities:










The Uni terminus was previously covered: quite a site, with 9 sets of points.

*Next*, a trip around the City circle, which we can all have for free:

At Flinders Street station:










This is a rather long station, so the next stop is outside the station too. The Elizibeth Street services fron the North-West suburbs terminate here.










Further down Flinders Street: the City Circle tram has a recorded commentary running, which will point out the Immigration Museum (former Customs House) and the Rialto along here; this building is now complete, but rose on the site of our former glorious fish market: we cross two tramlines, both hugging the Casino: one leads to St. Kilda and Port Melbourne, the other to Domain Interchange.










Around the bend, it's a totally different landscape: Docklands.










The "City Circle" has been modified a couple of times since it was implemented in the 1990's: first to "Harbour Esplanade" (formerly Cowper Street) and then to "Docklands Drive" (formerly Dudley Street). I must say the thing that mostly struck me about the former Cowper Street was all the broken glass in the windows on the left, & all the barbed wire around the docks on the right: things have changed for the better.










Your free trip around the Melbourne CBD by tram is an interesting one ... apart from the all the historic buildings it passes (and a few shopping centres!) in the 6 km or so of the journey, you encounter 16 junctions or crossovers with other tramlines ... the route back is by Latrobe Street, on top of the City Underground.

Takes you past the Royal Mint, the State Library, the Royal Exhibition Buildings, Parliament, the Princess Theatre, The Windsor Hotel, The Treasury Buildiing, The Old Melbourne Gaol, a few gardens of renown, and even the former offices of the Rupert Murdoch's Herald & Weekly Times ... all in thosw "[email protected]" class trams so prized outside this nation ...


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## Linea2 (Dec 19, 2007)

Eurotram said:


> I remember,that 2 of Mulhouse's trams were lent to Buenos Aires (probably till the moment they finish completing their first light rail line (of course with new rolling stock).And my question is:could you tell me if that tram on the photo put above is on of those two,which were later sent to the capital of Argentina?


I can´t answer you that. The line has not progressed since; it is currently being operated with a tram leased from Madrid.


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

Dean said:


> Just stay on the CBD or Southbank and do your trips from there. Visit the info centre at Federation Square to find out what you need for all your day trips. it has everything you'll need.
> 
> The end of July is the middle of winter so expect overcast days with 12-15 degree temps. It'll be cool, but not the frost bitten cold you're accustomed to.


Dean - thanks for the information - I have already started looking for some places to stay.


Yardmaster said:


> If you want to go out of town, assuming you are talking about using public transport could I suggest:
> 
> 
> SW: rail to Geelong then bus along the Great Ocean Road, either returning from Apollo Bay, or proceeding on pas the 12 Apostles to Warnambool & back by rail (2nd option only available some days, bus stops at tourist highlights). Private tour buses also do this.
> ...


Thanks for the information. Im thinking that, since my flight from Perth arrives at 7am, we will probably go west to Ballarat immediately, stay there overnight, then travel to the Ocean Road the next day (or vice versa) - so I guess we will probably rent a car for the first 2-3 days. After that, I definitely want to take the trains NE. 

Also, what about the puffing billy. Does it still run in winter?

TQ everyone for the info.

Cheers, m


----------



## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

allurban said:


> Dean - thanks for the information - I have already started looking for some places to stay.
> Thanks for the information. Im thinking that, since my flight from Perth arrives at 7am, we will probably go west to Ballarat immediately, stay there overnight, then travel to the Ocean Road the next day (or vice versa) - so I guess we will probably rent a car for the first 2-3 days. After that, I definitely want to take the trains NE.
> 
> Also, what about the puffing billy. Does it still run in winter?
> ...


Pufing Billy pretty much runs every day of the year ... google it & you'll find their timetable. If you're keen for rail travel, think about going right through to Gembrook. Lots of extra tressle bridges, & by then the volunteer staff will probably provide you with with free soup ... 

Re. Ballarat: although there's a rail line from there to Geelong, there's only a passenger bus service. Another option is the "Great Southern Touring route" (Melbourne-Ballarat-Ararat- Grampians- Warnambool - Great Ocean Road- Geelong-Melbourne). There are tour buses which do this circuit all the time, but of course they don't use the trains. V/Line runs a service Melbourne-Ballarat-Ararat-Grampians, & Warnambool-Great Ocean Road (or direct to0 Geelong - Melbourne; the gap between Grampians (or Ararat) to warnambool is operated by Christian's Bus service, under State Government funding: the timetable is hard to find, but it is there!

Shots from the bus:



















Timetables (may require updating): it's the P269 & P270 services you won't find on the regular timetables. The return service from Warnambool via V/Line's SW services along the Ocean Road appear on separate tables).



















Not really tram stuff ...


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## invincible (Sep 13, 2002)

New trams from Bombardier. They are to be built at their Melbourne production facility.



John_Proctor said:


> I'm obviously too bored this afternoon to be working.
> 
> official pics from DOT website.
> http://www.transport.vic.gov.au/web23/Home.nsf/AllDocs/D4F26B682D2CFE9FCA25777D00230BB6?OpenDocument


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## deasine (Sep 13, 2007)

They look great, but I'm not so sue about that bright lime-yellow on the doors.


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## Luli Pop (Jun 14, 2010)

thanks to its trams, Melbourne is the only city in Australia that I would like to visit

from far it seems Melbourne has a strong identity and it's due to its trams

I hope heritage tram will keep working for ever


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## invincible (Sep 13, 2002)

deasine said:


> They look great, but I'm not so sue about that bright lime-yellow on the doors.


It's the whole Disability Discrimination Act and all of its mandates. Bright yellow doors, poles, etc. It's actually going to require the non-low-floor fleet to be replaced over the next 15 years. That said, I doubt that will be the final livery so it's hard to know what they'll end up looking like.

As for heritage trams - they should be kept around only if they're not an impediment to the rest of the network. There are far too many people calling for them to be retained forever but they are terrible on commuter routes given that the basic design is almost 90 years old. There are still a couple of minor routes that are operated using these vehicles but their replacement couldn't come sooner.

Also, the Citadis trams loaned from Mulhouse are likely to stay in Melbourne forever, with the government in negotiations to purchase the trams at the end of their lease.


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## Ashis Mitra (Jan 25, 2009)

Many people says that Melbourne has the largest tram network of the world, but I read in many sites that it is the largest tram network in Southern Hemisphere, not in world. Is it true?


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## saurdemol (May 21, 2007)

Amazing Melbourne!
In my city is under construction with the 1st metro-tram line (the project are 3 lines).


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## Ashis Mitra (Jan 25, 2009)

Melbourne at least showed corrage for not closing their very large tram network, whereas Brisbane, Hobart, Perth & Sydney foolishly followed the then anti-tram craze of world.

All commuters, workers, unions, environmentalists & all over Sir Robert Risson were very much positive and serious about tram. Additionally I read Melbourne has many wider and good geometrically patterned roads, which was ideal for a world class tram network. Tram is so popular that some suburban rail lines have also converted to tram line!!!

I’m especially in favor of Melbourne tram, because around 1996, some tram drivers & conductors have come to Kolkata, my city for KOLKATA – MELBOURNE TRAMWAY FREINDSHIP. Especially Roberto Nuncio D’andrea, a conductor of now closed South Melbourne tram depot, has traveled the complete tram network with some of his colleagues. He drove a tram at our Belgachhia Depot, served as a conductor on a modified tram on our route 36, and modified some tram like Melbourne. He gave us some photos of Melbourne’s tram network and some photo postcards. He also had taken away some dresses of our drivers & conductors as souvenirs. The festival continued around one month. Then transport minister Late Subhash Chakrabarti was also (fake) interested about tram.

*Mr. D’andrea & his team suggested many ways for improving Kolkata’s tram network, some temporary works were also done, but we know West Bengal govt. is not serious about tram. They are very casual.*

Kolkata’s tram system is running since 1880 as horse tram, as steam tram from 1900 and as electric tram since 1902. It is the only tram network of India, and the oldest operating electric tram network of Asia. It has 36 routes.

Extend more and more tram routes at Melbourne.

At last a question. I read Melbourne is planning to open a metro, but after looking the map, I think it will not be a real metrom but will be another underground suburban rail line. Am I correct?


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## cjb287 (Dec 20, 2008)

^^

Yes that's correct. The proposal basically bypasses the congested inner city loop by connecting 2 suburban commuter rail lines via a cross city tunnel. So no it won't technically be a metro but frequencies will more than likely be a minimum of every 5 minutes. The first stage will see the construction of 5 new underground stations. Funding still hasn't been secured however and the new Government has yet to commit to it unfortunately.


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## Ashis Mitra (Jan 25, 2009)

I am totally amazed to see that tram is so popular in Melbourne, that it has replaced two electrified suburban rail lines!!! We can’t imagine it in Kolkata. Neither closed or goods line, a passenger line closed. Hats of to Melbourne.

I’ve some questions (arose after viewing some websites). Please answer one by one – 
1)	Will route 3 be extended to the East Malvern railway station or Chad stone Shopping Centre?
2)	Will route 6 be extended to Ash Burton station?
3)	Will route 8 be extended to Hartwell station?
4)	Will route 16 be extended to Kew Junction in Kew?
5)	Will route 72 be extended to North Kew or Ivanhoe, and also south to Caulfield?
6)	Will route 72 be extended from Burke Road, Balwyn to Heidelberg?
7)	Will there be a new routefrom Don caster, via Box Hill, to Bur wood?
8)	Will there be a new routefrom Highpoint, via Maid stone, to Sunshine?
9)	Will there be a new routefrom Moonee Ponds, along Ormond and Brunswick Roads, to Clifton Hill station?
10)	Will there be a new inner south tram link between City of Port Phillip and City of Stonington by connecting route 112 with route 8 via Park Street?
11)	Will route 67 be extended to the Carnegie Station?
12)	Will route 75 be extended to the Knox City Shopping Centre?
13)	Will route 48 be extended to Don caster Shopping Centre?
14)	Will there be a 5 kilometer new tram link between St Kilda, Victoria and Port Melbourne along Beaconsfield Parade?
15)	Will there be a new tram route from Melbourne to Port Melbourne and/or Garden City via Lorimar Street?
16)	Will Route 86 be extended from the Docklands along Foots Cray Road to Foots Cray station?
17)	Will route 19 be extended to Fawkner?


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## Ashis Mitra (Jan 25, 2009)

Please try to answer these - 
1)	What is the target year of extending route 3, 6, 8, 16, 19, 48, 65, 72, 75 & 86?
2)	What is the target year of opening new tram route to Doncaster, Highpoint, Mooneeponds and inner south tram link?
3)	Reserved or unreserved, - which type of track layout is common in Melbourne tramway network?
4)	Which is the busiest tram terminus?
5)	Which termini have interchange facility with suburban rail network?
5) Where is/are the depot(s) of the tramway network?


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Ashis Mitra said:


> Many people says that Melbourne has the largest tram network of the world, but I read in many sites that it is the largest tram network in Southern Hemisphere, not in world. Is it true?


The only real contester was St. Petersberg in Russia, but not any more.



Ashis Mitra said:


> Please try to answer these -
> 1)	What is the target year of extending route 3, 6, 8, 16, 19, 48, 65, 72, 75 & 86?
> 2)	What is the target year of opening new tram route to Doncaster, Highpoint, Mooneeponds and inner south tram link?
> 3)	Reserved or unreserved, - which type of track layout is common in Melbourne tramway network?
> ...


Hi Ashis Mitra,

In regard to the questions you pose above:


I'm not aware of any plans to extend tram network at the moment. The news tonight indicated that the trackwork along Docklands Esplanade, which affects several routes, was being repositioned. 

There is already a Moonee Ponds- Highpoint- Footscray service: they are upgrading the terminus at Footscray at the moment, in quite a big way. If you want to know about any proposed line to Doncaster, perhaps email Premier Baillieu.


Most (but not all) track on the Melbourne system is what I would presume you call "unreserved": that is, shared with other vehicles. However, large sections run on their own easements: about 10 km,for instance, are converted railway lines:










_Tram at South Melbourne Station: formerly a heavy-rail suburban line_​

Some lines run through parks, or along dedicated median strips. Notably lately, the construction of raised platforms ("superstops") in the middle of the street has both diminuished private vehicle traffic and enhanced the use of the tram system.




















_"Superstop" in Collins St. West (corner of Spencer St.) _​


The busiest tram "station" in the world is at the crossing of Swanston St. & Flinders Street in the centre of the city:




























the busiest terminus would be at Melbourne University. Nine points, or "switches" here leading into three sidings in the middle of the street, to terminate 10 lines.



















_shunting facilities at Melbourne University (Swanston Street)_​


There are numerous places where the tram & train systems interchange. Not all are tram terminii, but a notable terminus is in Elizibeth Street, where the 19,59 & 57 services terminate at Flinders St. Station. 











_Elizibeth St. Tram Terminus: Flinders St. Station in background._​









_Elizibeth Street Tram Terminus_​

There are a number of depots on the system, both ancient and modern. The Kew Depot includes a sort of Museum, and there is indeed a historical Tram Museum outside of the city at Bylands. I won't publish the location of tram depots here.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Recent developments on the Melbourne Tram System:

Tram tracks were laid about 100mm higher in Spencer Street, to deter vehicular traffic from venturing into tram lanes:










At Footscray, in the west of the city, a new tram terminus is being constructed. Not quite complete yet: yes, we do have trams that run to the Moon.










The 86 Route- one of the longest, extending to almost 20 km from the CBD- is being upgraded through the inner suburb of Northcote. Since "High Street" is rather narrow, this has involved laying island rather than facing platforms in the middle of the street. So far two island & one traditional stop have been implemented. The Rutger's Hill stop isn't in operation yet, but it looks like it might be the most scenic tram-stop in Melbourne:










Yarra Trams has produced a new map of the system, with colour-coding for each line, etc., etc. : somewhat like this effort produced in 1998:










Things have changed significantly since. Apart from route numbering etc., I can identify 6 major changes to the map. The new map:










A close-up of the north end of the City:










And the south:










Of interest here:

The Melbourne Tram System frequently presents itself as the largest network in the world, after the St. Petersberg network jumped out of the competition.

As I understand it, there are c. 240 km of double track- as a result of enquiry recently I determined that 68km of that was on it's own easeway. This doesn't mean that it doesn't - at some place- cross road or other traffic "at grade".

Not that I dwell on this, but Melbournites do tend to pat them themselves on the chest for not abandoning fixed rail transport in the streets: like everyone else in the hemisphere. We have 68km of 243 (I think) of what's our secondary mode of public transport operating on their own thoroughfares ... I woudn't be hanging my head in shame over that.

An old map of the proposed extensions to the system:


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

Are there any underground stations on the Melboure trams?


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## Planks & Sticks (Sep 26, 2007)

dwdwone said:


> Are there any underground stations on the Melboure trams?


No, but there was a proposal to route the busiest tram corridor into a tunnel somewhat in the 1970s or so under Swanston Street which has since then been dropped out of favour for a railway tunnel down the same alignment.

The railway tunnel was brought forwards by the previous incumbent government in 2006-ish (which has since then been voted out), but has since then been dropped out of favour by the newly voted in state government last year in favour for additional services to the suburbs instead of the denser inner city. (Or something along those lines)

As for the Melbourne's trams having their right of way, it is marginally acceptable but I think it can be a lot better than what we have now. I believe that a radical shift is needed before we choke to death from traffic congestion.


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

Melbourne has a ridiculous number of tram stops. That's my main "issue" with the system. You could easily get rid of half of them and speed the entire system up.


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## manrush (May 8, 2008)

Planks & Sticks said:


> No, but there was a proposal to route the busiest tram corridor into a tunnel somewhat in the 1970s or so under Swanston Street which has since then been dropped out of favour for a railway tunnel down the same alignment.
> 
> The railway tunnel was brought forwards by the previous incumbent government in 2006-ish (which has since then been voted out), but has since then been dropped out of favour by the newly voted in state government last year in favour for additional services to the suburbs instead of the denser inner city. (Or something along those lines)
> 
> As for the Melbourne's trams having their right of way, it is marginally acceptable but I think it can be a lot better than what we have now. I believe that a radical shift is needed before we choke to death from traffic congestion.


Perhaps burying some of the tramway lines could be a good solution. It's how Boston's Green Line came to be, after all.

Grade separation could ease congestion in Melbourne.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Planks & Sticks said:


> No, but there was a proposal to route the busiest tram corridor into a tunnel somewhat in the 1970s or so under Swanston Street which has since then been dropped out of favour for a railway tunnel down the same alignment.
> 
> The railway tunnel was brought forwards by the previous incumbent government in 2006-ish (which has since then been voted out), but has since then been dropped out of favour by the newly voted in state government last year in favour for additional services to the suburbs instead of the denser inner city. (Or something along those lines)
> 
> As for the Melbourne's trams having their right of way, it is marginally acceptable but I think it can be a lot better than what we have now. I believe that a radical shift is needed before we choke to death from traffic congestion.


In fact, I haven't heard of alternate proposals ... anyway, let's keep this "Melbourne Tram" thread just for that, & post the alternate stuff in the appproriate thread.

Melbourne - or Yarra - Trams actually command about a couple of kilometres more of segregated track than I previously listed above. I should have stated that my figures were based on personal research, not official releases. In my experience, it would take a long time to come up with official figures , which would require at least getting the Opposition Minister of Transport on side, & would take many months. 

The number of tram stops has and is dimuinshing significantly in Melbourne, most notably by the construction of raised platforms ("super-stops") frequently I would guess halving the number of stops along the route.

The stops have always been numbered: so please take me to task on this if you wish.


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## Ashis Mitra (Jan 25, 2009)

I saw in Wikipedia that Melbourne has 250 Km, whereas Sofia has 330 Km. of tram lines, so how Melbourne could be said that has the largest tram network of the World?

Melbourne's tram is largest in south Hemisphere.


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## sphnzeu (Jan 9, 2012)

*Anyone for 30m double-decker tram's?*

Melbourne's over-crowded trams could do with something like this to make the trip a little more pleasant. ...Or even a fleet of these on a light rail route like Doncaster.
https://sites.google.com/site/pagelink07


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

Yardmaster said:


> [*]The busiest tram "station" in the world is at the crossing of Swanston St. & Flinders Street in the centre of the city:


Do you have any statistics on that station? Number of trams per hour, number of passenger per hour?

P.S.: Those pictures bring back some good memories.


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

earthJoker said:


> Do you have any statistics on that station? Number of trams per hour, number of passenger per hour?
> 
> P.S.: Those pictures bring back some good memories.


There's not a "station" as such, just two tramlines crossing each other at right angles, one on Swanston St, one on Flinders St. They each have a stop at that corner but at right angles to each other - not the same stop. The Swanston St route does have a possible claim to be the world's busiest corridor because about 60 trams an hour (one per minute) pass along it in peak. 

This is not actually a great achievement because there is little leeway for problems. When something goes wrong it goes badly wrong. The system design in the CBD does not have have many opportunities to turn onto an alternative route if something goes wrong. "Too many eggs in one basket"!

(I think you can see the problem in some of the photos above!)


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

You don't have to explain me the situation, I have been there


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

historyworks said:


> There's not a "station" as such, just two tramlines crossing each other at right angles, one on Swanston St, one on Flinders St. They each have a stop at that corner but at right angles to each other - not the same stop. The Swanston St route does have a possible claim to be the world's busiest corridor because about 60 trams an hour (one per minute) pass along it in peak.
> 
> This is not actually a great achievement because there is little leeway for problems. When something goes wrong it goes badly wrong. The system design in the CBD does not have have many opportunities to turn onto an alternative route if something goes wrong. "Too many eggs in one basket"!
> 
> (I think you can see the problem in some of the photos above!)


well, you can judge for yourself.

St Vincent's Interchange:










Melbourne University:










Flinders Street:




















Footscray: (it's going to Moonee Ponds but I was too quick with the camera)










University interchange: note the triple sidings for shunting.










Collins Street:










Collins St. West:










St. Kilda Road:










It may once have been the case that tracks just crossed in the bitumen, but that was a long, long time ago.

And ... not only are there fewer stops, but street railways are much more responsive to disruption than fixed rail. If one street is out, you switch to another:










Most of the inner-city stops have LCD displays these days, indicating the time of arrival and destination of the next four or so trams.


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

Yardmaster said:


> University interchange: note the triple sidings for shunting.


Interesting that they never build a turning loop at University, considering how many lines end there. This system doesn't seem very efficient to me. Do you have any loops at all in Melbourne?

Here one example to show you what I mean:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=47.364219,8.531642&spn=0.001019,0.001206&t=h&z=20


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

earthJoker said:


> Interesting that they never build a turning loop at University, considering how many lines end there. This system doesn't seem very efficient to me. Do you have any loops at all in Melbourne?
> 
> Here one example to show you what I mean:
> http://maps.google.com/?ll=47.364219,8.531642&spn=0.001019,0.001206&t=h&z=20


An interesting suggestion, but no, there are no return loops on the Melbourne Tram system. I would question your asertion re. ineffiecency as a result.

This is the north end of Swanston St ... two lines run beyond it.

The three sidings between the running lines enable trams to be despatched appropriately ...which, unless you had 3 parallel loops around a balloon loop, 
you could not do. Some of these trams take an hour or so to get to their destinations ... From here, even if they have arrived late, they can be set off in the appropriate sequence.

Interestingly, most metropolitan trains in Melbourne (as against trams) run through a loop as you describe, although 5km or more in length. Many Skyscraper city freaks here think that loops should be removed ... to enable straight-through running. The shot you've posted re. the tram system indicates why not: In Swanston St., massive transit to the south, not so much to the north.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

A few shots bumped up of Melbourne's trams for those with limited bandwidth but good eyes: from three years ago in this thread.

Flinders Street Station: this is where all the action is:

Flinders street runs East-West through here, beside the station:










And Swanston Street, allegedly the busiest tram route in the world, crosses it, running north south:




























One block- 10 chains- 200 metres- up the road is Collins Street, also heavily trafficed by trams. Various routes use different types of vehicles: you're more likely to see these "B" class trams here.

Before and after shots: the city is being equipped with raised platforms with shelters and electronic signage.










Most Collins Street services run to St. Vincent's Plaza: this is a double junction where some services terminate.










The Swanston street trams mostly terminate at Melbourne University: 










The City Circle route uses heritage "W" class trams: travelling on this service is free.










Some more little photos of Melbourne's Tram network. There seem to be heaps of W-Class trams here, and you may spot the odd photo revised. Remember, it's all at least three years old.

*Firstly*, that north-south axis (allegedly the busiest in the world):

At Flinders Street Station (crossing the River Yarra over Princes Bridge):










Domain Interchange, about 3km south: Left: platform 3, right: platform 1.










Opposite direction: towards Melbourne & RMIT Universities:










The Uni terminus was previously covered: quite a site, with 9 sets of points.

*Next*, a trip around the City circle, which we can all have for free:

At Flinders Street station:










This is a rather long station, so the next stop is outside the station too. The Elizibeth Street services fron the North-West suburbs terminate here.










_______________________________________________________

Further down Flinders Street: the City Circle tram has a recorded commentary running, which will point out the Immigration Museum (former Customs House) and the Rialto along here; this building is now complete, but rose on the site of our former glorious fish market: we cross two tramlines, both hugging the Casino: one leads to St. Kilda and Port Melbourne, the other to Domain Interchange.










____________________________________________________

Around the bend, it's a totally different landscape: Docklands.










The "City Circle" has been modified a couple of times since it was implemented in the 1990's: first to "Harbour Esplanade" (formerly Cowper Street) and then to "Docklands Drive" (formerly Dudley Street). I must say the thing that mostly struck me about the former Cowper Street was all the broken glass in the windows on the left, & all the barbed wire around the docks on the right: things have changed for the better.










Your free trip around the Melbourne CBD by tram is an interesting one ... apart from the all the historic buildings it passes (and a few shopping centres!) in the 6 km or so of the journey, you encounter 16 junctions or crossovers with other tramlines ... the route back is by Latrobe Street, on top of the City Underground.

Takes you past the Royal Mint, the State Library, the Royal Exhibition Buildings, Parliament, the Princess Theatre, The Windsor Hotel, The Treasury Buildiing, The Old Melbourne Gaol, a few gardens of renown, and even the former offices of the Rupert Murdoch's Herald & Weekly Times ... all in those "W2" class trams so prized outside this nation ...










Won't see the old W-Class trams like that around today ... unless you choose to dine on the tram.
Green & Yellow was the traditional colour for trams here ... and red for the trains. After wev'e got over it all- the failed privatization process- with various rebrandings, we'll get back to Green and Yellow: because that's what Melbourne Trams are meant to be.

W Class trams were widely sold off overseas, most notably to Seattle, USA.


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## MelbourneCity (Sep 12, 2002)

I'd love to see the green and yellow return to our trams, even if it was something more contemporary. 

Something like this would be quite welcome. It's a fantasy design - Melb's new trams will not look like this.


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

Yardmaster said:


> An interesting suggestion, but no, there are no return loops on the Melbourne Tram system. I would question your asertion re. ineffiecency as a result.


For a single line, the triple sidings seems to be a very smart and cheap solution. Funnily not possible in my city, our trams have only doors on one side.
Now for several lines turning loops are more efficient because turn times are much lower (the tram actually can drive through without waiting) and you only need to build one loop. Also you need less switches, if you have a continouing line you need only two switches, if it is the end of all lines you need no switches at all. In the triple siding solution you need 3 switches each.


> The three sidings between the running lines enable trams to be despatched appropriately ...which, unless you had 3 parallel loops around a balloon loop,
> you could not do. Some of these trams take an hour or so to get to their destinations ... From here, even if they have arrived late, they can be set off in the appropriate sequence.


My statement about efficiency was under the assumption that no dispatching is needed. 


> Interestingly, most metropolitan trains in Melbourne (as against trams) run through a loop as you describe, although 5km or more in length. Many Skyscraper city freaks here think that loops should be removed ... to enable straight-through running. The shot you've posted re. the tram system indicates why not: In Swanston St., massive transit to the south, not so much to the north.


Do you speak about the city loop. Or are there loops at the outer ends as well? I never traveled so one line till the end. I think turning loops make much less sense for trains than for trams, as train have a much much larger turning radius.


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

earthJoker said:


> For a single line, the triple sidings seems to be a very smart and cheap solution. Funnily not possible in my city, our trams have only doors on one side.
> Now for several lines turning loops are more efficient because turn times are much lower (the tram actually can drive through without waiting) and you only need to build one loop. Also you need less switches, if you have a continouing line you need only two switches, if it is the end of all lines you need no switches at all. In the triple siding solution you need 3 switches each.


It is a single line with multiple routes. Trams depart in a different order to which they arrive. In fact it is this reason that a traditional loop would not work, to work the loop needs multiple roads. Have seen that done though and it works well too.


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

ajw373 said:


> Trams depart in a different order to which they arrive. In fact it is this reason that a traditional loop would not work, to work the loop needs multiple roads.


I totally agree with this. As I said, I wrongly assumed that dipatching was not needed. Just if you don't need dispatching, a loop has a higher capacity.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

^^ When you've got eight or so lines all terminating in the same place, it's handy to be able to get them back into some sort of order if some are running late.

Here's another thought or more about Balloon loops.


Obviously if your trams only have doors on one side, well, you need to turn them around like that.


I'd guess most of these loops are on the outskirts of the city? In Melbourne, even now, the hope is that the line will be extended somewhat further: Commiting yourself to a "balloon loop" sort of seals off any further expansion on that route.


Having doors on one side only is obviously more efficient: provided you have balloon loops, or something equivalent ("Y"'s) to turn them around.


"Balloon Loops" are very common here: on mineral railways. Australia produces a lot of coal and iron ore, with trains that are turned around, refilled, and directed back to port, just as you thought our trams would be.


Most passenger carriages on the railways here have an "East End" and a "West End". I think this mainly has to do with paint: which fades more quickly on the nortern- sun facing - side. They can be turned around ... in the yards.


Suburban trains in Melbourne regularly run through "The Loop".


Trains on the Circle Line in London are reversed from time to time: to compensate on the wear on one side of the wheel.



MelbourneCity said:


> I'd love to see the green and yellow return to our trams, even if it was something more contemporary.
> 
> Something like this would be quite welcome. It's a fantasy design - Melb's new trams will not look like this.


Me too ... but I can only imagine what I cannot see.


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## MK Tom (Oct 26, 2009)

Yardmaster said:


> [*]Trains on the Circle Line in London are reversed from time to time: to compensate on the wear on one side of the wheel.


Not sure where you got that from. The Circle Line isn't a circle. It's a spiral. You have to reverse at Hammersmith. But even back when it was a circle trains would usually terminate somewhere.

Incidentally looking at the huge proportion of high-floor trams in Melbourne, does Australia have any kind of equivalent to the Disability Discrimination Act? A law requiring all vehicles to be low floor by a certain date?


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Yardmaster said:


> [*]I'd guess most of these loops are on the outskirts of the city? In Melbourne, even now, the hope is that the line will be extended somewhat further: Commiting yourself to a "balloon loop" sort of seals off any further expansion on that route.


Really?


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

XAN_ said:


> Really?


I had a look at your map via your link ... I think what you should realize is that Melbourne's housing stock is not made up of large apartment blocks, but generally, small independent houses on about .1 of a hectare or less. 

There's no room for a tram balloon loop: unless this was planned for in advance: and it wasn't. Note that this is a large, spawling city, with some suburbs more than 50 km from the city centre. A couple of tram-routes reach out to about half that distance and another couple, slightly less. I don't think anyone here's actually concerned about whether they turn round via a loop, or stop & turn back, after all that travelling.


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

Yardmaster said:


> ^^ When you've got eight or so lines all terminating in the same place, it's handy to be able to get them back into some sort of order if some are running late.
> 
> Here's another thought or more about Balloon loops.
> 
> ...


Overseas I have seen loops in the city. Budapest comes to mind as one such example.



Yardmaster said:


> [*]Having doors on one side only is obviously more efficient: provided you have balloon loops, or something equivalent ("Y"'s) to turn them around.


If you have doors on one side you must have a loop, don't know about them being more efficent, but they do have more seats. The downside is you need a loop to turn them short. But not hard to do.



Yardmaster said:


> [*]Trains on the Circle Line in London are reversed from time to time: to compensate on the wear on one side of the wheel.


Not anymore. The circle line stopped working as a complete circuit about 3 years ago. Trains now run Edgeware road-Notting Hill Gate-Edgeware Road-Hammersmith and vice versa. Not for wear reasons but for scheduling.


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

The next generation of trams to hit Melbourne's streets. Made by Bombardier. 


















More photos can be found here:
http://www.theage.com.au/photogalle...melbourne-20110824-1j9k6.html?selectedImage=0


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## MelbourneCity (Sep 12, 2002)

MK Tom said:


> Incidentally looking at the huge proportion of high-floor trams in Melbourne, does Australia have any kind of equivalent to the Disability Discrimination Act? A law requiring all vehicles to be low floor by a certain date?


Yes. The government has been very slow to spend money on procuring new trams for network, however there is a program underway of upgrading the busiest of trams stops to platform stops. Unfortunately, many routes which have upgraded stops are not run with low floor trams, so the process is all rather redundant for the time being.

There are 50 new trams on order, which should begin to come online later this year. These will probably be used to improve frequencies rather than replace older trams. As about 350 (if not more) trams are high floor trams, a large order will be needed to finally have a fully compliant tram network - this is many years off and there is not the spare money as the tram network is the poorer cousin in Melbourne (trains are getting the majority of funding as its a busier network).


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

Yardmaster said:


> Obviously if your trams only have doors on one side, well, you need to turn them around like that.


Exactly, also here they have only one cockpit. They can run backward, as there are controlls in the back.


> I'd guess most of these loops are on the outskirts of the city? In Melbourne, even now, the hope is that the line will be extended somewhat further: Commiting yourself to a "balloon loop" sort of seals off any further expansion on that route.


No not at all. There are several loops in the city, some around a square, some around a block. Some are just in case of accidents or closed lines. Example of such a loop: http://maps.google.com/?ll=47.381239,8.503962&spn=0.002037,0.002411&t=h&z=19


> Suburban trains in Melbourne regularly run through "The Loop".


I know. If you have luck, it even goes around the way you need to. I never found any system in the direction though. My question was, how do they turn at the other end (outskirts).

Anyway I just wondered why you don't have loops, I think my question was answered: To dispatch and reorder trams.



city_thing said:


> The next generation of trams to hit Melbourne's streets. Made by Bombardier.


Nice! They look quite long, but probably it's just the visuals. I don't think Melbourne's network could handle longer trams then the current ones.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Yardmaster said:


> I had a look at your map via your link ... I think what you should realize is that Melbourne's housing stock is not made up of large apartment blocks, but generally, small independent houses on about .1 of a hectare or less.
> 
> There's no room for a tram balloon loop: unless this was planned for in advance: and it wasn't. Note that this is a large, spawling city, with some suburbs more than 50 km from the city centre. A couple of tram-routes reach out to about half that distance and another couple, slightly less. I don't think anyone here's actually concerned about whether they turn round via a loop, or stop & turn back, after all that travelling.


I don't argue that loop require more space... It sure do. I'm arguing that it doesn't prevent further extension, as you stated earlier.


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

earthJoker said:


> Anyway I just wondered why you don't have loops, I think my question was answered: To dispatch and reorder trams.


Don't think that is the answer. I think you will find the answer is historic. The re-ordering of trams is unique to the location in the picture above where several routes terminate at the same place. At the outer ends of most lines there is just the one route, so a double terminating road with crossovers is sufficient, even if re-ordering is needed for a tram coming in or out of service.


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## MelbourneCity (Sep 12, 2002)

earthJoker said:


> Anyway I just wondered why you don't have loops, I think my question was answered: To dispatch and reorder trams.
> .


The system has never had loops, and I suppose it comes down to the grid layout of the city. I can't see any need to retrofit now, however some terminals could do with an upgrade.


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

ajw373 said:


> Don't think that is the answer. I think you will find the answer is historic. The re-ordering of trams is unique to the location in the picture above where several routes terminate at the same place. At the outer ends of most lines there is just the one route, so a double terminating road with crossovers is sufficient, even if re-ordering is needed for a tram coming in or out of service.


My question was directed at that specific place, where several lines end. IMO this would make it practical to build a loop, because you only need to build it once, but can use it for several lines.


MelbourneCity said:


> The system has never had loops, and I suppose it comes down to the grid layout of the city. I can't see any need to retrofit now, however some terminals could do with an upgrade.


I never wanted to suggest that Melbourne needs loops, I just wondered why it wasn't considered. But I don't think it's the grid layout, I think you overestimate the space such a loop needs.


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

earthJoker said:


> Exactly, also here they have only one cockpit. They can run backward, as there are controlls in the back.
> 
> No not at all. There are several loops in the city, some around a square, some around a block. Some are just in case of accidents or closed lines. Example of such a loop: http://maps.google.com/?ll=47.381239,8.503962&spn=0.002037,0.002411&t=h&z=19
> 
> ...


I imagine they'll be the same length as the current Bumblebee Trams, which are on extended loan from some city in France (I forget which one - Toulouse maybe?) 

Some lines are better at handling longer trams than others, such as the 96 route (the bumblebee route) which partly runs along reconfigured train tracks and therefore uses old strain stations as stops.


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## mrmoopt (Nov 14, 2004)

city_thing said:


> I imagine they'll be the same length as the current Bumblebee Trams, which are on extended loan from some city in France (I forget which one - Toulouse maybe?)
> 
> Some lines are better at handling longer trams than others, such as the 96 route (the bumblebee route) which partly runs along reconfigured train tracks and therefore uses old strain stations as stops.


Mulhouse. And the lease has been converted to a sale. Melbourne now owns them.


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## lkstrknb (Jan 14, 2009)

These are my recent (January,2013) pictures from my visit to Melbourne. I especially liked the Restaurant tram running around. When I inquired about it, the tourist center said they are booked for weeks in advance. They offer a lunch 'tour', early dinner and a late dinner. Prices range from $70 to $120 if my memory is correct. I'm sure it is on the internet.

Luke









This is on tram line 57, 59, 19. This is looking to Flinders Street Station.










This is tram 96 at the St Kilda Beach terminus.









This is tram 8 at the Toorak terminus.









This is the Restaurant tram on St Kilda St. Trams 3, 67, 16, 3a, 64, 5, 6, and 72 run on these tracks.









This is tram 96 on a dedicated grade separated track.









This is tram 70 crossing over the Metro train tracks. This is the tram everyone
taking the tram to the Australian Open used.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

^^ Good photos. If anyone wants any locations ...



MK Tom said:


> Not sure where you got that from. The Circle Line isn't a circle. It's a spiral. You have to reverse at Hammersmith. But even back when it was a circle trains would usually terminate somewhere.
> 
> Incidentally looking at the huge proportion of high-floor trams in Melbourne, does Australia have any kind of equivalent to the Disability Discrimination Act? A law requiring all vehicles to be low floor by a certain date?


1. I wouldn't claim to be an expert on London's Metro ... but I do have a number of books ... and the local library has many more.

It's not a spiral! If you have chosen to run trains in and out, well, maybe it's more like a balloon loop

Reading arcane books on the London Metro, thiss process took place- when deemed neccesary- somewhere near Liverpool Street.

2. In, Australia, These laws are all state-based. This is a difficult question to answer- I'd say at least 90% of trammways, or Light Railways, are in Victoria; since I'm there too, perhaps I can comment.

I'm not sure of the legal ramifications here, but, tram-floors have come done- in the 3000 & 5000 series trams- and platformd have come up: about 200mm of so. I've given you lots of photos of the old "W-Class" trams which you certainly couldn't board - most notably from street level- in a motorized wheel chair. Most other trams have lower floors, designed to more-or-less co-incide with the platform height. So yes, this issue has been adressed, and prerphaps my enthusiam to show heritage trams here has given you the wrong idea.


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## lkstrknb (Jan 14, 2009)

I just added the locations to the photos I used. Look two posts above...









One last picture. This is the free City Circle tram running on hilly La Trobe St intersecting trams 57, 59, and 19 on Elisabeth Street.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

The tram at the top of the hill in the background is where the William Street service crosses the City Circle: most of the city tram stops now have raised platforms more like (300m than 200m as I previously suggested, not sure exactly), but I guess it stands to reason that Latrobe St, with it's W-Class trams, will be the last to be modified.


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

city_thing said:


> I imagine they'll be the same length as the current Bumblebee Trams, which are on extended loan from some city in France (I forget which one - Toulouse maybe?)


Mulhouse actually.


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## cjb287 (Dec 20, 2008)

Yardmaster said:


> I'm not sure of the legal ramifications here, but, tram-floors have come done- in the 3000 & 5000 series trams- and platformd have come up: about 200mm of so. I've given you lots of photos of the old "W-Class" trams which you certainly couldn't board - most notably from street level- in a motorized wheel chair. Most other trams have lower floors, designed to more-or-less co-incide with the platform height. So yes, this issue has been adressed, and prerphaps my enthusiam to show heritage trams here has given you the wrong idea.


The majority of trams in service don't comply with the disability discrimination act. There are about 100 low floor trams in service at the moment out of a fleet size of 487 vehicles. The Z, A and B1/2 class trams meet roughly level with newer platform stops but there are still internal steps which render them non-compliant. There is still quite a way to go. According to Public Transport Victoria 19.7 per cent (350) of the network’s 1775 tram stops are level access while 24% (100 vehicles) are low-floor. 

There are 50 Bombardier Flexity Swifts on order (E-class) due to start arriving later this year. The contract has provisions for an additional 100 vehicles should the government choose. They will need to if they are to meet the DDA requirement of full network compliance by 2032 because the current 50 on order will barely make a dent. It seems like ages but I believe the target year has already been extended once before.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Melbourne dug up it's main tram route over Easter.










About 2km south of the city is the "Domain Interchange": which is where one route comes in & one comes off from the main St. Kilda road route.

Also intended as a Metro Station Location, it's out of service for a fortnight: the interchange prior to the current works: the new interchange will have raised platforms, electronic signage, etc.


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## MelbourneCity (Sep 12, 2002)

It appears Melbourne's tram fleet is to be painted in a new livery, reflecting th ranting of the new over-arching transport authority, Public Transport Victoria, or PTV.

See attached image via link. 

http://www.vicsig.net/photo/16491


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...bourne-awards-depot-development-contract.html
> 
> *Melbourne awards depot development contract*
> 28 May 2014
> ...


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

deleted


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## mw123 (Oct 23, 2009)

2014 9:28 am by craigsydnz, on Flickr


2014 5:05 pm by craigsydnz, on Flickr

06 APR 14 25ºC MELBOURNE by oh.yes.melbourne, on Flickr

06 APR 14 25ºC MELBOURNE by oh.yes.melbourne, on Flickr


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## mw123 (Oct 23, 2009)

More great photos by Mr_Kiwi_Fruit.


2014 12:48 pm by craigsydnz, on Flickr


2014 2:32 pm by craigsydnz, on Flickr


2014 8:30 am by craigsydnz, on Flickr


2014 2:32 pm by craigsydnz, on Flickr


2014 2:33 pm by craigsydnz, on Flickr


2014 4:45 pm by craigsydnz, on Flickr


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## mw123 (Oct 23, 2009)

30 APR 14 17ºC MELBOURNE by oh.yes.melbourne, on Flickr


Melbourne by craigsydnz, on Flickr


Melbourne by craigsydnz, on Flickr


Melbourne by craigsydnz, on Flickr


Melbourne by craigsydnz, on Flickr


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Burke Road Level Crossing, Gardiner


Burke Road Level Crossing, Gardiner by AS 1979, on Flickr


Burke Road Level Crossing, Gardiner by AS 1979, on Flickr


Burke Road Level Crossing, Gardiner by AS 1979, on Flickr


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## MelbourneCity (Sep 12, 2002)

The intersection will be grade separated next year.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

MelbourneCity said:


> The intersection will be grade separated next year.


Like this - to mention, this is render of new Gardiner station, just near of level crossing:


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## [atomic] (Oct 12, 2013)

^^
how does this crossing work? do tram/light rail and the commuter train have the same voltage in the overhead wire?


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## SurfRail (Oct 16, 2012)

[atomic] said:


> ^^
> how does this crossing work? do tram/light rail and the commuter train have the same voltage in the overhead wire?


The OHLE is at 1500v DC for trains and 600v DC for trams. 

There are 4 at grade tram/train crossings in Melbourne ('tram squares'). Each has a manned switching cabin. The bloke's job is to manually switch the tracks in and out depending on what's passing through.


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## MelbourneCity (Sep 12, 2002)

My guess is the Glenferrie Road tram crossing will be the next to go, then Glen Huntly. 

I doubt Riversdale Road crossing will ever go, but it would almost certainly be a low priority.


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