# Olympic Venues: Benefit or burden?



## ReiAyanami (May 14, 2008)

neoellinas said:


> As many posters here know, there's been more articles about this issue in the international press, including the most recent one posted by Yahoo Sports, claiming that 21 out of the 22 Olympic facilities in Athens were "abandoned." In the athletics thread, I pasted the letter that I wrote to Yahoo Sports, refuting their claims. However, after coming across some other articles on the issue, such as one by the Daily Express, I did some more research, and wrote the following letter to them. I'm posting it here because I go through each of the Olympic facilities individually, and present as much as possible evidence of how they are used, how they have been used, and how they will be used:
> 
> ******
> 
> ...


Now lock the thread.


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## Zorba (Sep 7, 2005)

@Mo: I wouldn't say that it is only 1 or 2 stadiums either. There are venues that really haven't gotten much (if any) use after the games, and that certainly is a problem. Many of the plans outlined in the quote above mine have not been realised yet. 

All I am saying is that the situation isn't as bad as one would believe after reading a handful of news articles.


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

Zorba said:


> @Mo: I wouldn't say that it is only 1 or 2 stadiums either. There are venues that really haven't gotten much (if any) use after the games, and that certainly is a problem. Many of the plans outlined in the quote above mine have not been realised yet.
> 
> All I am saying is that the situation isn't as bad as one would believe after reading a handful of news articles.


I know that and if I'm allowed, will continue my questions.
The Sailing Marina probably has the best potential to be be a real success. It certainly looked fantastic during the Games and the private company would certainly maintain and promote the venue.

Who is responsible for the maintenance of venues e.g. Olympic Village/Sailing Marina. Many of them for a few months after the Games, although not in use, were not maintained? Is is the state or the city?


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## Walbanger (Jan 10, 2006)

> In Sydney it has been a massive burden. The main venue at Homebush loses money and would be better sense to have it demolished. Attendances for rugby internationals and NRL have actually decreased. The ARU wants to move internationals back to the Sydney Football Stadium because of the lack of atmosphere.


See this is the problem with having the 'unofficial' national stadium in the city with the most fairweather fans. Sydney have the laziest fans in the country. Thank god Australia's national teams spread their games around the country. That being said, the Australian Wallabies (Rugby Union) and NSW State of Origin (Rugby League) pull great crowds, its just that International Rugby League is a joke so they are better off back at the Sydney Football stadium and in regional areas. The NRL teams lack the consistant support to pull large enough crowds to ANZ stadium to create a decent atmosphere (not much fun with 15000 people in a stadium that hold 83500), again I blame the Sydney fans.

Acer Arena, the Sydney Olympics Gymnastics Arena doesn't have a sporting tenant but is one of the busiest arenas in the world with concerts and exhibitions etc. 

Many of the Sydney olymic park venues are now part of the new Sydney show grounds where they are exhibition space for the annual Royal Agracultural Show (A large state fair) which each Australian State hosts at their own 'show ground'. 

The Baseball stadium which is now the central arena for the Sydney show ground has hosted National Rugby League club the Canterbury Bulldogs for a few seasons and now looks like it may be converted into an Australian Football Stadium for the planned West Sydney team.

As for an older Olympics. the Melbourne Cricket Ground is a national icon and would be recognised by many Australians as the proper choice for 'National Stadium' if Australia formally had one. Been totally rebuilt scince the 1956 games. Still has a capacity of over 100 000 and continues to be one of the busiest stadiums in the world.

The old warm up track to the MCG for the 1956 games is know as Olympic park. Truely showing its age, it is home to Victorian Athletics and the National Rugby Leagues Melbourne Storm. It has hosted soccer and rugby union thoughout its history as well, being home to many soccer teams over the years.

The old 1956 swimming pool still remains as a icon of Australian Modernist architecture, it is nicknamed the Glasshouse by most. In the 70's is was converted into an arena for concerts and basketball (not unlike the Wembley Arena) and played host to Melbournes National Basketball League teams til the last one left in the mid 90's. The Glasshouse has been tranformed into the training and administrative home of the Australian Football League club the Collingwood Magpies and has a naming right sponsor so is currently know as the Lexus Centre.


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## Zorba (Sep 7, 2005)

Mo Rush said:


> I know that and if I'm allowed, will continue my questions.
> The Sailing Marina probably has the best potential to be be a real success. It certainly looked fantastic during the Games and the private company would certainly maintain and promote the venue.
> 
> Who is responsible for the maintenance of venues e.g. Olympic Village/Sailing Marina. Many of them for a few months after the Games, although not in use, were not maintained? Is is the state or the city?


 It's a public forum, you're allowed to do whatever you want. 

From what I know (and have read in articles including the post rei made about the Olympic venues) the Marina is being turned into a private luxury marina. As for the Olympic village, it has been totally turned into housing. The only problem is that it is very far from the rest of Athens (not easy to get to and from).


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

Zorba said:


> It's a public forum, you're allowed to do whatever you want.
> 
> From what I know (and have read in articles including the post rei made about the Olympic venues) the Marina is being turned into a private luxury marina. As for the Olympic village, it has been totally turned into housing. The only problem is that it is very far from the rest of Athens (not easy to get to and from).


So who is responsible for maintenance of the venues owned by the public?


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## somataki (Aug 10, 2005)

Mo Rush said:


> Most?
> 
> Most were not there before the Games...


Most of the major were already inplace before the games: Olympic stadium, Peace and friendship Stadium, Karaiskaki stadium, Kalimarmaro stadium, velodrome, Olympic indoor arena, Swimming pools etc. Except if you think that major main stadia means tae Kwo ndo and badminton stadiums..

*2004 Athens, Olympic Press Center:*


























*and 2009, Golden Hall Mall, the most luxurious in SE Europe so far:*



































Tennis stadiums in 2004 now are the home of Athens Tennis Academy.

*2004, Tennis stadium:*










*2009, Academy:*
























Badminton stadium became the famous for its size Badminton theater. A badminton stadium in Athens would be absolutely useless:

*2004 Badminton Stadium:*









*

2009 "Badminton Theater":*


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

Don't get edgy. Most means majority not major.
By most I mean venues for:

Baseball
Softball 
Hockey
Sailing
Equestrian
Rowing
Tennis
Fencing
Badminton/Gymnastics
Beach Volleyball
Shooting
Football
.....etc.

That said, the Badminton Theater looks good.


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## somataki (Aug 10, 2005)

Mo Rush said:


> Don't get edgy. Most means majority not major.
> By most I mean venues for:
> 
> Baseball
> ...


I dont know any olympic city that had already all these sports venues built before the games and I wonder why Athens should.


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

somataki said:


> I dont know any olympic city that had already all these sports venues built before the games and I wonder why Athens should.


never mind.


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## ReiAyanami (May 14, 2008)

^^ The point is that most of those venues were not needed in Athens, and why should they do in the first place? Converted into totally different uses is logical. And its the case of any Olympic city.

True some venues were not in use for some time and action delayed for some of them. But as this thread shows, all the large and expensive venues see good use, and the rest of the infrastructure was/is absorbed for the city uses. 

Athens is a city with its problems, problems we live and hear every day. But I have never seen or heard anything so bad about the Olympics, and we, all the citizens of Athens will surely agree that Athens 2004 brought only good for this city.


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

As I said, never mind. 

I'll discuss the venues with Zorba. For the sake of this thread.


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## Kuvvaci (Jan 1, 2005)

Athens Badminton Theatre looks wonderful. What is its capacity?


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## ReiAyanami (May 14, 2008)

The official site says 2.500


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## gorgu (Mar 16, 2003)

Having read the comments about Homebush I actual have to agree with Bob, the stadium is to big and only fills a maximum of three times a year (State of Origin and a rugby international or two).

There is simply no team that can get anywhere near the capacity of Telstra / ANZ / (insert tacky sponsor name here) stadium. The place is in the middle of a wasteland and the whole park is sterile and has about the same amount of atmosphere as a Leyton Orient home game


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## gorgu (Mar 16, 2003)

oops


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## Demetrius (Aug 23, 2005)

@ some new greek forumers:Guys please ignore Mo Rush, he is a well known hater of Athens games and he was bashing even before the 2004 olympics, recreating all the miserable lies Murdoch press & co. were publishing.
He is among the sore haters that were heavily bittered by the success of the Athens organisation and even know, 5 years later he does not hesitate to demonstrate his complexes.
I mean, "who's responsible for the maintenance of the Olympic marina?" WTF????
Dude, I've been there myself and I know by first hand what's happening there, but guess what, I WONT TELL YA! Go find a Murdoch press article to find out and ridicule yourself more!!!!


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

Mo's asking sensible questions; he's certainly not a troll. If YOU WON'T TELL 'IM the answers that's your problem.


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## Demetrius (Aug 23, 2005)

RobH said:


> Mo's asking sensible questions; he's certainly not a troll. If YOU WON'T TELL 'IM the answers that's your problem.


My friend "sensible questions" is one thing, empathy is another.I suggest you read what other friends have posted about post-olympic Athens, to find out that despite the poor management of the post 2004 conservative government in Greece, most venues are been exploited to their best potential in a way even the ever-whining greeks (like myself!) could find at least satisfactory. You won't find any white elephant in post olympic Athens, only arguments about a couple of misused or under-used minor sites and a sensible amount of "abandoned" potential mainly in public infrastructure matters. But the latter are issues that could 've existed anyway, given the short-sighted management of many of our politicians.


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## Jim856796 (Jun 1, 2006)

Is that badminton Theatre a regular theatre or is it a theatre used for badminton matches?


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## SpicyMcHaggis (Oct 7, 2008)

How on earth could someone claim that places like OAKA, SEF and Heliniko are white elephants when those places are some of the most used arenas in Europe? PAO and Maroussi play sometimes up to 4 games per week in OAKA. Olympiacos uses SEF in same way and Panionios uses Heliniko... find me any other city in Europe (or world) that has 3 top clubs using 3 different high capacity and high quality arenas in such amount. Can't find it? Ye.. just what i tought. 

Football stadium? Its used by PAO and AEK as their home stadium FFS. Does that even need an explanation? 

This is just absurd... 

Did that ignorant sad little reporter even check any data or he was just writing out of his ass?


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

RobH said:


> Mo's asking sensible questions; he's certainly not a troll. If YOU WON'T TELL 'IM the answers that's your problem.


Don't bother.


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

SpicyMcHaggis said:


> How on earth could someone claim that places like OAKA, SEF and Heliniko are w
> 
> This is just absurd...
> 
> Did that ignorant sad little reporter even check any data or he was just writing out of his ass?


Exactly. hence my questions regarding maintenance.
Perhaps venues have a few weeds outside or the pool is not perfectly clean.
Perhaps he is confused between the need for maintenance and the actual use of the venue.


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## ReiAyanami (May 14, 2008)

OMG sorry Mo Rush we misunderstood your good intentions. You worry so much about Athens Olympic venues, we might even see you hunting down the rust off the Calatrava's roof, with a bucket of white paint in your hand!:banana::banana::banana:


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

ReiAyanami said:


> OMG sorry Mo Rush we misunderstood your good intentions. You worry so much about Athens Olympic venues, we might even see you hunting down the rust off the Calatrava's roof, with a bucket of white paint in your hand!:banana::banana::banana:


Welcome to the ignore function.


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## BergenScooterPatrol (Aug 7, 2008)

here's a nice article from this week's edition of Sports Illustrated about the legacy left behind by the Beijing Olympics one year after.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1158404/index.htm


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## Ironmanfood (Apr 23, 2008)

Olympic Legacy is an interesting topic, as it is so different for each city with different needs. E.G zero hockey interest/tradition is somewhere like Athens, or Atlanta building an olympic stadium shaped like a Baseball diamond.

It's a shame the thread turned to shit.

P.S @ Mo, as to the original article, The Evening Standard are not really a trustworthy source, they probably still think there are WMDs in Iraq .... I was in London at the time, and IMO the ES were among the chief war-mongers with little interest in facts.


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## ReiAyanami (May 14, 2008)

The thread turned like that cause its creation was provocative and aimed at a specific target due to the personal grudges of a member, who never the less got his answer.


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## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

I would say Munich is the prototype how to do it after the games, it was probably the most successful in using the venues afterwards: Not only that the Olympiapark is a landmark for the city, its still used for sport events (although the football clubs moved to the new arena), concerts and all other kinds of events. The Olympic village used to be a student residence for a long time.


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## jandeczentar (Aug 14, 2009)

I think the conclusion to be drawn here is that there is no such thing as a perfect Olympic legacy in which every single venue is used regularly after the games. Hosting the Olympics involves catering to such a large number of sports and building the venues to stage them that it would be almost impossible to find long term use for them all. The best that any one can do is find uses for as much as they can. I agree that many of the venues could/should be temporary even for fairly high-profile sports like equestrian and swimming (who needs a 20,000 seat swimming pool most of the time?). It's asking a lot to find enough well supported sports teams and events in one city to fill every single venue. 

Athens has done the best it can to utilise its venues. The main sports in Greece are football and basketball and unfortunately neither of them require an outdoor beach-volleyball stadium or a diving pool.

The fact is that most Olympic sports are 'minority' sports that have very small supporter bases and finding something to put in, say, the fencing venue must be a challenge to any organiser.


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## Sportsfan (Jul 26, 2009)

I think that British media outlets like this are being overly confident that they wont fall under the same scrutiny come 2013.

London is being very careful to make sure that there is a use for the venues after the Games - probably planning better than any host city previously. While the Main Stadium plan to reduce the capacity from 80000 to 25000 after the Games has been ridiculed by some, I think its a genius plan that future host cities will look to use as a serious strategy when proposing Games venues.

Sydney was smart to incorporate the Showgrounds into Sydney Olympic Park, giving good long term use to alot of indoor venues (RAS Dome & Pavilions, Olympic Media Centre buildings) that if no legacy were planned, would be seen to be white elephants now. Acer Arena is used very regularly, the Aquatic Centre also, the Tennis Centre serves its purpose and the Hockey Centre made good use of temporary seats during the Games that it has not become a liability. Even so, Sydney Olympic Park is still suffering an identity crisis 9 years later. It is in a detached part of Sydney, not on the main suburban rail line and usually only full of people at Easter and Grand Final time. But in a nutshell, Sydney gained some much needed sports infrastructure that it wouldn't have seen even half of by now if the city hadn't won the Games.

From what I've seen, Athens isn't doing too badly. While legacy was not foremost in their mind when building the venues, they have caught up alot and many venues are used regularly 5 years later and the rest will come back into line.

There is too much emphasis from some quarters that architectural beauty is being set aside for functionality in Olympic venues. It's smart economics to avoid building an olympic venue just to be aesthetically pleasing. The London 2012 venues would appear to have form and function. We'll find out in 2013 if they got it right.


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## Sportsfan (Jul 26, 2009)

I think that's why it pays to build a large Convention/Exhibition Centre before you even bid for the olympic games if you don't already have one. That kind of facility can be split into numerous minor indoor arenas for all of the minor sports like Fencing, Judo, Table Tennis, Badminton, Taekwondo and Wrestling.

I can only imagine how much more expensive Sydney 2000 would have been if they didn't already have the facilities at Darling Harbour.


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

Its just important to start plannning for legacy from day 1 and to be smart about it.
Pump money into venues already in place that perhaps only need temporary works.

Use a cricket field for archery,don't build a weighlifting arena in a neighbourhood hoping it solves problems, build temporary venues where the cost is justified.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Even in China where Beijing just held the country's first Olympics and needs the facilities, the question of future use has popped up and the National Stadium (Bird's Nest) is likely going to be under-used in the long term. Perhaps the strategy should change whereby the IOC looks at using existing facilities and converting them for the Olympics instead.


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## ReiAyanami (May 14, 2008)

hkskyline said:


> Even in China where Beijing just held the country's first Olympics and needs the facilities, the question of future use has popped up and the National Stadium (Bird's Nest) is likely going to be under-used in the long term. Perhaps the strategy should change whereby the IOC looks at using existing facilities and converting them for the Olympics instead.


Yea but I do remember forum members bashing Athens for using an old stadium as a base of conversion to the new olympic. Oh and yes, all the OAKA complex was build in the 80s and 90s and guess what? It became the main Olympic venue center.... I guess even London could learn something from this extrordinary use of resourses that although was the best ever in Olympic history, everyone chooses to omit.....hno:hno:hno:


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## New York City 20?? (Aug 23, 2008)

ReiAyanami said:


> Yea but I do remember forum members bashing Athens for using an old stadium as a base of conversion to the new olympic.


It doesn’t matter what forum members think. We are of virtually no importance.

Their b!tching had no effect on those wonderful two weeks in 2004.


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## Mr Reasonable (Aug 12, 2009)

I really worry that hosting the olympics has simply become too expensive. London does not have a convincing legacy strategy and the white elephants that litter previous olympic sites demonstrate that it is exceptionally hard to find a meaningful use for such large venues. I wonder if we will reach a stage where we the olympics will rotate between three or four existing sites and the money saved can be ploughed back into sports development.


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

The legacy strategy is a work in progress but I don't think anyone can claim what we'll be left with won't be a huge improvement on the industrial mess and wasteland that was there before. A brand new park the size of Hyde Park for starters.


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## Mr Reasonable (Aug 12, 2009)

RobH said:


> The legacy strategy is a work in progress but I don't think anyone can claim what we'll be left with won't be a huge improvement on the industrial mess and wasteland that was there before. A brand new park the size of Hyde Park for starters.


The problem is that the legacy strategy should have been developed three years ago before the facilities were designed. In this way the legacy would be built into the design from the start. As it stands they will just have to make the best of a bad job. And £9 billion for a park!


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

I said "for starters". Besides which, the current spend is more like £7.5bn

The legacy, in terms of archietecture, _was_ built into the design from the start. The stadium is 2/3rds temporary, the aquatics centre likewise will have most of its capacity reduced after the games. The village will be housing and the IBC/MBC is modular and, although aestetically unspectacular, is quite flexible in terms of what it'll be able to house after games. The road networks, bridges etc. are essential and the cleaning up/widening of the river is a great thing. The biggest bridges in the park are also partially temporary _precisly because_ leagacy was built in from the start!

The current head of the legacy team believes the current plan is 80% very good. So whilst I said it was a work in progress, I didn't mean it hadn't been thought about at all, just that the details are being worked out.


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

Sportsfan said:


> I think that's why it pays to build a large Convention/Exhibition Centre before you even bid for the olympic games if you don't already have one. That kind of facility can be split into numerous minor indoor arenas for all of the minor sports like Fencing, Judo, Table Tennis, Badminton, Taekwondo and Wrestling.
> 
> I can only imagine how much more expensive Sydney 2000 would have been if they didn't already have the facilities at Darling Harbour.



Atlanta used the Georgia World Congress Center (4th largest convention center in the U.S.) for fencing, judo, weighlifting, handball, table tennis, and wrestling. 

Previously built venues were used for several events, like boxing, basketball, baseball, gymnastics, volleyball, badminton, shooting, and soccer...the Georgia Dome, the Omni, Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium, Stegeman Coliseum, Forbes Arena, Alexander Coliseum, Sanford Stadium, Georgia State University arena, and Morris Brown/Clark Atlanta University stadiums.

A temporary velodrome was set up for cycling. A similar temporary venue was set up for archery in the same area. 

The swimming/diving venue was converted to the Georgia Tech Sudent Athletic Center after the Olympics. Olympic Stadium was converted to Turner Field for use by the Atlanta Braves of MLB. 

Georgia International Horse Park is still widely used for equestrian events, concerts, etc.

The only "unsuccessful" post-Olympic venues in Atlanta were the tennis complex and the beach volleyball venue. Both have since been reconfigured for other uses.

Conclusion: Atlanta's Olympic venues have been a definite benefit to the city.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Some venues end up sitting virtually empty. Canada has certainly benefitted tremendously from Olympic facilities in Calgary, however. Those facilities became the nexus of a successful national winter sports system that has elevated Canada from an 'also ran' to a winter sports power house.

Canada's stated goal is to finish a top the medal table at the next Olympics in 2010. Such talk would have been inconceivable 15-20 years ago. There's hope that landing a summer Olympics in Toronto will have similar benefits for Canada. There is a serious lack of sports facilities in a province that represents 43% of the national population. An Olympics would correct that infrastructure deficiency.


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

isaidso said:


> Some venues end up sitting virtually empty. Canada has certainly benefitted tremendously from Olympic facilities in Calgary, however. Those facilities became the nexus of a successful national winter sports system that has elevated Canada from an 'also ran' to a winter sports power house.
> 
> Canada's stated goal is to finish a top the medal table at the next Olympics in 2010. Such talk would have been inconceivable 15-20 years ago. There's hope that landing a summer Olympics in Toronto will have similar benefits for Canada. There is a serious lack of sports facilities in a province that represents 43% of the national population. An Olympics would correct that infrastructure deficiency.



I think that the Olympic venue issue and its burden on the host city is usually more of a Summer Olympics thing. Winter Olympics are usually held in smaller towns rather than larger cities...with a few obvious exceptions such as Calgary, Sarajevo, Salt Lake City, and Oslo - and in 2010 Vancouver.

Summer Olympics cities are often stuck with a huge athletics arena that becomes little-used and a financial burden.


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## maciej_sl (Apr 9, 2009)

hkskyline said:


> Even in China where Beijing just held the country's first Olympics and needs the facilities, the question of future use has popped up and the National Stadium (Bird's Nest) is likely going to be under-used in the long term. Perhaps the strategy should change whereby the IOC looks at using existing facilities and converting them for the Olympics instead.


In essence I agree, or they could award the games to cities with real potential to use the venues on a regular basis (spectator sport national leagues or conversion to community sports centers). If you build an 80,000 seater in a country where there is not much of a mass sport culture, you will surely face a white elephant problem. I personally think a fantastic solution is to pass the facilities to colleges, because they have a steady supply of sportsmen and do not limit the use to a handful of professional athletes.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

maciej_sl said:


> In essence I agree, or they could award the games to cities with real potential to use the venues on a regular basis (spectator sport national leagues or conversion to community sports centers). If you build an 80,000 seater in a country where there is not much of a mass sport culture, you will surely face a white elephant problem. I personally think a fantastic solution is to pass the facilities to colleges, because they have a steady supply of sportsmen and do not limit the use to a handful of professional athletes.


Yes - re-use is very important, which is why I think the Olympic Park-style development model has got to go. Put these facilities in communities, albeit in close proximity to each other, or fill in all those big spaces after the Games with housing. Make neighbourhoods out of them, and voila!


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

WeimieLvr said:


> I think that the Olympic venue issue and its burden on the host city is usually more of a Summer Olympics thing. Winter Olympics are usually held in smaller towns rather than larger cities...with a few obvious exceptions such as Calgary, Sarajevo, Salt Lake City, and Oslo - and in 2010 Vancouver.
> 
> Summer Olympics cities are often stuck with a huge athletics arena that becomes little-used and a financial burden.


I'd argue that the burden is rather equal if not more troublesome in winter Olympic host cities. Winter Olympic host cities tend to be smaller so it's more difficult to find uses for lavish facilities with large seating capacities. 

You're correct that it really depends on each individual city as the set of circumstances are unique to each. Usually the most problematic is the stadium used for an opening and closing ceremony. 

What is Albertville going to do with a stadium that holds more people than live in the town? What is a potential city like Toronto going to do with a 80,000 seat stadium with an athletics track? Toronto can't even fill the stadium it has now and it only seats 53,000. 

Athletics tracks? There may be events scheduled there, but they would only need 5,000 - 10,000 seats. If Toronto landed a major event, it might sell out, but that would be one major athletics event in perhaps its entire life after an Olympics. A similar situation exists in almost every summer Olympics athletics stadium. Only in Europe do athletics stadiums get used more often for athletics. 

In north America they will not get used. The only solution is to lower the field, get rid of the track, and build more seats down to the new field. This has been done in a number of instances.


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

isaidso said:


> I'd argue that the burden is rather equal if not more troublesome in winter Olympic host cities. Winter Olympic host cities tend to be smaller so it's more difficult to find uses for lavish facilities with large seating capacities.
> 
> You're correct that it really depends on each individual city as the set of circumstances are unique to each. Usually the most problematic is the stadium used for an opening and closing ceremony.
> 
> ...



That's why Atlanta built Olympic Stadium so that it could easily be converted to a baseball stadium and be well-used for many years to come. The stadium received a good bit of unwarranted criticism, but it was really a very intelligent move.


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## antriksh_sfo (Jan 10, 2009)

isaidso said:


> Some venues end up sitting virtually empty. Canada has certainly benefitted tremendously from Olympic facilities in Calgary, however. Those facilities became the nexus of a successful national winter sports system that has elevated Canada from an 'also ran' to a winter sports power house.
> 
> Canada's stated goal is to finish a top the medal table at the next Olympics in 2010. Such talk would have been inconceivable 15-20 years ago. There's hope that landing a summer Olympics in Toronto will have similar benefits for Canada. There is a serious lack of sports facilities in a province that represents 43% of the national population. An Olympics would correct that infrastructure deficiency.



*"OFF ALL THE COUNTRIES CANADA HAS LITL RIGHT SPEAK OF BURDEN/ECONOMICS CONSIDERING THEIR IMPECCABLE TRACK RECORD"*
i. Montreal 76 - Big Embarassment for teh Olympic Movement incomplete venues and Debt for decades to come.
ii. Vancouver 94 CWG - Tempoarary Venues even lesser std than Indian/Chinese National Games Main Stadiums
I dont know much about the Winter Games but time will tell Canda's tryst with tragedy after 2010.








http://english.shandongbusiness.gov.cn/public/zhuanti/shandong/pic/pic30.jpg


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

^^ Wrong! If anything, Canadians have experience with both benefit and burden when it comes to Olympic venues, wouldn't you say? I'd rather listen to people who have some experience with both than someone with experience with neither. 

Your logic is completely backwards!

:weird:


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## maciej_sl (Apr 9, 2009)

I read somewhere that the Olympic Stadium in Beijing has become the second or third most popular venue in the city with tourists. I would imagine that some people are making it a point to come and see it then, which benefits the city financially. So if you build an aesthetically pleasing venue, I suppose it can sustain itself as a major tourist attraction till they find other uses for it...if they find such uses in the end. I wonder if tourists in Athens or Sydney or Atlanta ever wander the Olympic Stadiums?


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## ReiAyanami (May 14, 2008)

maciej_sl said:


> I read somewhere that the Olympic Stadium in Beijing has become the second or third most popular venue in the city with tourists. I would imagine that some people are making it a point to come and see it then, which benefits the city financially. So if you build an aesthetically pleasing venue, I suppose it can sustain itself as a major tourist attraction till they find other uses for it...if they find such uses in the end. I wonder if tourists in Athens or Sydney or Atlanta ever wander the Olympic Stadiums?


Athens Olympic complex is a state owned sport facility. The main stadium is closed at all times and no visitors are allowed, probably because it is rented by two football teams and thus for security reasons it is guarded, especially during the heavy schedule, during the superleague matches. The same goes for OAKA indoor hall. The swimming facilities are open for public use, for a fee, unless there are swimming events that day, the time schedule is on the website, http://www.oaka.com.gr/default.asp 
The Olympic Tennis stadium is open for public use, reservation of a court is also possible, the time schedule is also on the website.

You can reach Olympic Sport complex from anywhere in the city using only one, 1 euro ticket valid or 1.5 hours for all public transport and there is no entrance fee to enter the facility.


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

maciej_sl said:


> I read somewhere that the Olympic Stadium in Beijing has become the second or third most popular venue in the city with tourists. I would imagine that some people are making it a point to come and see it then, which benefits the city financially. So if you build an aesthetically pleasing venue, I suppose it can sustain itself as a major tourist attraction till they find other uses for it...if they find such uses in the end. I wonder if tourists in Athens or Sydney or Atlanta ever wander the Olympic Stadiums?


The stadium in Sydney is still an attraction. The area (Olympic Park) is actually becoming another suburb, with apartment towers, hotels, shops etc. it's not just some dead area.


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## BobDaBuilder (Jun 7, 2005)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It would be cheaper to bulldoze the stadium than to pay the upkeep. But due to the political fallout they keep the Olympic stadium going.


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## maciej_sl (Apr 9, 2009)

here, Time Magazine did an interesting photostory about Olympic Stadiums. 

http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1927333,00.html


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## 1772 (Aug 18, 2009)

antriksh_sfo said:


>


This one is really stupid. I mean, sure it looks great in mid-july. But how about the rest of the year?


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## mAiNsTrEaMhunter (Sep 28, 2008)

for me its both a benefit and a burden!


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## ExSydney (Sep 12, 2002)

maciej_sl said:


> here, Time Magazine did an interesting photostory about Olympic Stadiums.
> 
> http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1927333,00.html


Not all that great of an article...and Seoul....WTF?..The picture is the Seoul World Cup Stadium which was built for the 2002 WC...It certainly wasnt around in 1988.
As for Sydney,there is no doubt the Sydney Olympic Stadium has been a major benefit for the city.Previously the biggest stadium in Sydney was just 45,000 and at 83,000,it hosts over 50 events per year and sells out around 7-10(incl concerts)...A great asset.


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## Bobby3 (Jun 26, 2007)

maciej_sl said:


> here, Time Magazine did an interesting photostory about Olympic Stadiums.
> 
> http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1927333,00.html


"now host to various soccer games."

Hertha Berlin is now "various soccer games"?


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

Some of my views.

*1. Olympic Stadium: *
Athletics rarely attracts crowds beyond 20-25,000. Ensure that the venue can reduce its capacity post Olympic Games or ensure that it can be reconfigured *suitably* to host other sports in demand in the host city. An anchor tenant and venue operator would be ensure a stream of events post Olympic Games and greater potential for revenues. Ideally events at the stadium are not used as revenue generator to offset debts related to construction costs.

Consider a flexible venue e.g. Stade de France, only where the benefit from additional athletic events exceeds the cost of the "movable stands" solution. Other considerations would be the impact on the field of play when the venue moves between athletics and football mode.

Where the venue exists, consider temporary expansions to the required 60,000 seat IOC required capacity.

*2. Aquatic Centre*
Design venue to ensure that the capacity can be reduced to 2-5,000 in Legacy Mode. Design the roof structure and other structures to accommodate both Games mode and Legacy mode without any major addition costs or design revisions. 

The addition of leisure facilties after the Games can contribute to generating revenues. An additional training pool would be able to accommodate leisure aspects while ensuring the competition pool is available for events/elite training as/when required.
*
3. Indoor Arenas*
Maximize the use of existing indoor venues. Where additional venues are required consider temporary venues, only where the cost is lower than the legacy benefit.
The construction of a generic indoor space/venue e.g. a Convention Centre or Exhibition Halls, rather than sports specific venues e.g. weightlifting venue, can benefit the host city both before and After the Games.

Creativity is the key e.g. temporarily covering a football venue/regenerating old warehouses/clustering temporary arenas e.g. Paris 2012

*4. Hockey*
Use an existing venue, or an existing small-medium sizes football venue. 
Where a legacy need exists, construct a permanent venue with limited seating capacity, and extensive athlete amenities and spaces. Consideration could be given to sharing the facility with football, with the second training hockey field for exclusive hockey use.

Where an entirely temporary venue is considered, the cost should be considered. 

*5. Archery*
Construct a temporary venue or use existing venues e.g. cricket stadia, small-medium football stadia/sports field with good proximity to the Athletes accommodation.

*6. Sailing*
Use and upgrade the facilities of an existing sailing club to ensure post Games legacy. Alternatively, consider the best sailing site outside the host city with experience in hosting national and international sailing events e.g. Valencia. The use of an existing harbour should also be considered.

Where an existing venue is used, the use of temporary structures should be maximized where appropriate with limited permanent seating capacity.

*7. Beach Volleyball*
Usually ideal to construct a temporary arena at an existing beach or at an iconic host city location.

*8. Velodrome*
Use an existing velodrome, which may be temporarily covered for the Games.
Where an existing venue is in place, or a new venues is planned, consider options to ensure a multi-purpose sports and events centre e.g. Melbourne Multi-Purpose Venue.

Maximize the use of temporary seating.

*9. BMX*
Consider a small-medium sized football/athletics venue with existing athlete/media facilities in place. Alternatively construct an entirely temporary venue, possibly near the Cycling(Track) venue, if possible cost reductions exist.
*
10. Equestrian*
Maximize the use of temporary structure or existing park areas. 
The use of an existing grand stand and race course track at a racecourse could provide both a legacy and cost reductions. In addition, this would reduce travel times for athletes. Creative options do exist e.g. Greenwich Park, Golf Clubs etc.
*
11. Modern Penthatlon*

Where the following venues are in close proximity, do not construction additional venues unless a legacy need exists.
- 1 Small-Medium Indoor Arena (Shooting/Fencing)
- 1 Olympic sized Pool (Swimming)
- 1 Small-Medium sized football/athletics stadium (Equestrian/Cross Country)

e.g. Using an indoor arena, aquatic centre and nearby stadium at the Olympic Park. Alternatively University sports facilities usually incorporate all of the above and would therefore offer cost reductions. Temporary seating should be used where necessary.

*12. Rowing*

A costly and potential white elephant.
Careful planning should be given to this venue, especially given the experience of Sydney, Athens and Beijing.

As this venue is permanent, consider
- incorporating other leisure activities at the water body
- incorporating the venue into the olympic park or future residential area to maximize its use/value
- mainly temporary seating
- bringing the venue closer to the village to minimize the long travel times, which has become the norm
- use an existing water body where possible e.g. Lake Michigan, Manzanares, Rio's Lagoa


*13. Slalom/Whitewater*

Considering the construction of a temporary venue OR use an existing river course where suitable.
Integrating this venue with the rowing venue could reduce costs and improve the future use of the venue. As above, minimize permanent seating, maximize temporary seating.

*14. Tennis*

Use an existing venue with temporary seats around certain courts to meet the required seating capacity. Where a legacy need exists construct a venue with permanent seats with a suitable capacity. Ensure the future use of the venue by attracting one annual WTA and ATP event.

An existing tennis club would benefit from improved facilities while the use of temporary seating would lower the maintenance burden post Games

*15. Shooting*
The location of this venue is likely to be subject to environmental considerations/approvals.
Construct an entirely temporary venue or provide minimal facilities where legacy need exists.
The various shooting halls can be reconfigure post Games as community halls/spaces.


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## ReiAyanami (May 14, 2008)

According to your list, best Olympic venue use is Athens 2004


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

ReiAyanami said:


> According to your list, best Olympic venue use is Athens 2004


lol.


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## ReiAyanami (May 14, 2008)

Mo Rush said:


> lol.


I know, and nobody cares to mention, its only Sydney or Beijing to look and learn.


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## Bobby3 (Jun 26, 2007)

Actually, that sounds a lot like Atlanta.


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## ReiAyanami (May 14, 2008)

Bobby3 said:


> Actually, that sounds a lot like Atlanta.


Did Atlanta already have an Olympic stadium before the games?


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

ReiAyanami said:


> Did Atlanta already have an Olympic stadium before the games?


They didn't even have one during the games.


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## ReiAyanami (May 14, 2008)

flierfy said:


> They didn't even have one during the games.


lol:cheers:


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## Bobby3 (Jun 26, 2007)

ReiAyanami said:


> Did Atlanta already have an Olympic stadium before the games?


"Ensure that the venue can reduce its capacity post Olympic Games or ensure that it can be reconfigured suitably to host other sports in demand in the host city."

They did that.

The most popular team in Atlanta is the baseball team, the stadium now hosts the baseball team.


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## maciej_sl (Apr 9, 2009)

So at the end of the day Atlanta opted for a pragmatic solution. But relating it to the title of the thread, you cannot call that stadium a burden, right?


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## Ironmanfood (Apr 23, 2008)

Slalom/Whitewater has to go. It's a ridiculous burden on any host. Leave it as a niche sport televised from Welsh rivers ....


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

A good watersports centre ought to be able to find a better legacy than an empty stadium. I mean, you can turn those places into tourist attractions and get group bookings etc.


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

RobH said:


> A good watersports centre ought to be able to find a better legacy than an empty stadium. I mean, you can turn those places into tourist attractions and get group bookings etc.


Depends I suppose. A natural river/slalom course probably the cheapest.


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## Bobby3 (Jun 26, 2007)

RobH said:


> A good watersports centre ought to be able to find a better legacy than an empty stadium. I mean, you can turn those places into tourist attractions and get group bookings etc.


Ours loses a lot of money


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## aaronaugi1 (Apr 23, 2008)

Ironmanfood said:


> Slalom/Whitewater has to go. It's a ridiculous burden on any host. Leave it as a niche sport televised from Welsh rivers ....


My city has been considering building one for a number of years now. There are many whitewater canoe/kayak clubs here but they can only use natural rivers during the winter months.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Depends on the city getting them and what plans they've made for them afterwards.


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## Mr Reasonable (Aug 12, 2009)

*Who is legacy for?*

I get the impression that "legacy" is sometimes about making the politicians look good rather than what it delivers for the community. Take the 2012aquatic centre. I understand that the cost of converting the venue back into legacy mode will cost in the region of £40m. That's enough to build sixteen 25 metre pools, something which is desperately needed in London, but they have to spend it so that they can say the Hadid's monstrosity has a "legacy" use.


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## Bobby3 (Jun 26, 2007)

aaronaugi1 said:


> My city has been considering building one for a number of years now. There are many whitewater canoe/kayak clubs here but they can only use natural rivers during the winter months.


Given Perth's issues, it should really examine Charlotte's whitewater center. It's become a sinkhole for money.


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

Mr Reasonable said:


> I get the impression that "legacy" is sometimes about making the politicians look good rather than what it delivers for the community. Take the 2012aquatic centre. I understand that the cost of converting the venue back into legacy mode will cost in the region of £40m. That's enough to build sixteen 25 metre pools, something which is desperately needed in London, but they have to spend it so that they can say the Hadid's monstrosity has a "legacy" use.


Yes, quite right, legacy has evolved from the "legacy" that was thrown around in Olympic circles to a real tangible legacy, especially given that a temporary structure might actually cost quite a bit and offer no legacy when dismantled or as you suggest above, where the cost of transformation into legacy mode could provide a real legacy elsewhere.


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

maciej_sl said:


> I read somewhere that the Olympic Stadium in Beijing has become the second or third most popular venue in the city with tourists. I would imagine that some people are making it a point to come and see it then, which benefits the city financially. So if you build an aesthetically pleasing venue, I suppose it can sustain itself as a major tourist attraction till they find other uses for it...if they find such uses in the end. I wonder if tourists in Athens or Sydney or Atlanta ever wander the Olympic Stadiums?


Many tourists visit Atlanta's Olympic Stadium...it's heavily used March-October as the home field for Atlanta Braves baseball, converted following the Olympics and reduced to 50,000 seats.


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

flierfy said:


> They didn't even have one during the games.


Yeah, they must have held the track and field events out in a cotton field somewhere...and the Opening Ceremonies was all smoke and mirrors - Bejing anyone? :lol:


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## herb21 (Aug 12, 2008)

jandeczentar said:


> The fact is that most Olympic sports are 'minority' sports that have very small supporter bases and finding something to put in, say, the fencing venue must be a challenge to any organiser.


Ironically fencing is a pretty easy sport to cater for as it has no permanent infastructure specific to the sport so as long as time constraints allow it can share a big hall (convention center/expo center (after the games could actually be a huge number of things the 1997 Fencing world champs in cape town were held in the then coloumbourg convention center it is now a car show room as the need for a convention center was taken over by other venues)) with other sports during the games.


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## Mo Rush (Nov 13, 2004)

Yes, thats a good example. Cape Town also really benefit from the Olympic Priority facilities like the hockey stadium, velodrome, athlone, bellville stadium, softball stadium and many other smaller indoor halls for community use.

Fortunately, all these facilities were built to expand to accommodate Olympic needs.


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