# Attitudes towards mass transit in you city or country?



## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

SSCers in general tend to be supportive of mass transit, but what are the attitudes of local populace towards mass transit in you cities or countries?


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## calaguyo (Nov 28, 2008)

I don't see the reason of NOT supporting mass rapid transit in any city or country unless there is a special reason.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Supportive in Sweden. Problem is that due to budgetary constraints the support isn't always translated into building. But still, we are seeing increased interest in building more advanced mass transit systems in our cities.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

*Bad traffic* is the number one reason on why many Manileños highly support mass transit though would also like to see improvements in the current system especially when it comes to infrastructure, system and efficiency. 

But despite of this, car ownership in The Philippines is rising and that the government would prefer to spend on building more roads rather than rail.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Anticipating the responses ahead, how about we twist the discussion a bit to find out *places where people feel negatively about transit *?


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

I like metro, subway and tram travel but I really hate buses. Unless there are loads of bus lanes they spend most of there times stuck in traffic with the cars and the drivers all piss me off! lol

Either private car or rail transport for me! Most of my friends seem to feel the same! Willing to take the train to London or the tube around London but in a city that does not have that will want to drive instead.


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## SE9 (Apr 26, 2005)

hkskyline said:


> Anticipating the responses ahead, how about we twist the discussion a bit to find out *places where people feel negatively about transit *?


Atlanta, which I realised after several stints staying there. I was informed that people in certain areas campaigned _against_ rail lines being extended into their areas, because they believed it would bring the "lower classes" into their neighbourhoods.

A line from this popular comical song on everything bad about Cleveland (at 0:22) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY - _"Watch the poor people all wait for buses!"_. That's a real view I observed in Atlanta and several other US cities I've visited extensively: public transport being negatively associated with the poor.


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

LtBk said:


> SSCers in general tend to be supportive of mass transit, but what are the attitudes of local populace towards mass transit in you cities or countries?


In Italy people generally think mass transit doesn't work and are car oriented.

Often this is an excuse (over all in cities where mass transit is efficient, as Milan or Turin, for istance) to justify the attitude of using the car in every circumstance IMO


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

Here are some of the flaws of Metro Manila's public transport system,

LRT/MRT (Metro)

- Use of light rail on line-3 where there is a heavy volume of commuters
- Lack of ticket vending machines especially on lines 1 and 3. Ticket counters are placed instead resulting to long queues.
- Some of the TVMs are not working on line-2 stations.
- No smart card system.

PNR (Commuter Rail)

- Substandard maintenance of rolling stock including the new DMUs
- No TVMs

Buses

- All privately owned.
- Drivers are payed by commission instead of fixed salary
- Reckless Driving

Jeepney

- Major pollutant.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

hkskyline said:


> Anticipating the responses ahead, how about we twist the discussion a bit to find out *places where people feel negatively about transit *?


We could do that.



> Atlanta, which I realised after several stints staying there. I was informed that people in certain areas campaigned against rail lines being extended into their areas, because they believed it would bring the "lower classes" into their neighbourhoods.


It's the same with my hometown Baltimore.


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## I-275westcoastfl (Feb 15, 2005)

People are pretty backwards here, the same as mentioned in the Atlanta post. Also people don't want to pay taxes for it.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

My hometown is one of those cities where mass transit makes sense, but there hasn't been any transit expansion in over 15 years due to expenses, lack of political will, and a populace that is largely against mass transit over the same ignorant reasons found in other cities(crime, bringing down property values, socialism, slow, only the poor use them etc). At least a new line is going to be built.


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## Dimethyltryptamine (Aug 22, 2009)

My city is in an unfortunate situation where the trains don't service the major CBDs (they're about 20km west of the coastline), however the Gov't is constructing a $1.6 billion light rail to much opposition by people (has been called things like a white elephant, a toy train, etc) and I think something like 4% walk, and only 5% use public transport - the rest drive. It's quite sad really. So yeah, they definitely don't support mass transit/public transport.


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## kauebraga (Nov 28, 2007)

Here, if you don't have a car, you're gonna suffer. And the government reduces taxes to the "new middle class" buy more cars and cars. And the public transportation is left behind, of course


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

kauebraga said:


> Here, if you don't have a car, you're gonna suffer. And the government reduces taxes to the "new middle class" buy more cars and cars. And the public transportation is left behind, of course


That was my experience when I stayed in LA for a month. Though the area where I stayed (West LA) has a decent public bus system.


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## calaguyo (Nov 28, 2008)

Manila-X said:


> *Bad traffic* is the number one reason on why many Manileños highly support mass transit though would also like to see improvements in the current system especially when it comes to infrastructure, system and efficiency.
> 
> But despite of this, car ownership in The Philippines is rising and that the government would prefer to spend on building more roads rather than rail.


Singapore may have the best transportation system and that is because the government is pushing for it. Only above avarage earners can own a car as cars are effing expensive here. You can't also buy a second hand one. Before owning a car you need to bid for a COE (Certificate of Entitlement) which cost fortune and not only that, it will also be associated with these crazy taxes:

Vehicle taxes and registration fees
Electronic Road Pricing (ERP)
Road taxes
Car insurance

Overall cost of the car
Registration fee + Cost Price + Road Tax + COE + additional registration fee (140% of OMV) and customs duty (31% of OMV).

I would rather take bus and train.


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## calaguyo (Nov 28, 2008)

More public mass transportation = less power consumption = SAVINGS for everyone.
More public mass transportation = less private cars = road ergonomic/traffic friendly.
More public mass transportation = less smoke emmision = environment friendly.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

In the US I think it is more of a generational issue.

Typically older people are against mass transit while younger people (ie people in their 20's and 30's) are for expanding it even further.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

calaguyo said:


> Singapore may have the best transportation system and that is because the government is pushing for it. Only above avarage earners can own a car as cars are effing expensive here. You can't also buy a second hand one. Before owning a car you need to bid for a COE (Certificate of Entitlement) which cost fortune and not only that, it will also be associated with these crazy taxes:
> 
> Vehicle taxes and registration fees
> Electronic Road Pricing (ERP)
> ...


HK's public transportation system can rival that of SG when it comes to efficiency and quality. The fact only a small percentage of the territory own a car.

Though there is also a great number of SG citizens who own an automobile especially those who make side trips to Malaysia.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

diablo234 said:


> In the US I think it is more of a generational issue.
> 
> Typically older people are against mass transit while younger people (ie people in their 20's and 30's) are for expanding it even further.


It's usually the political logic: expand free/subsidized services while I don't earn much to make my life easier, but withdraw taxes needed to support then when I'm earning more.

Pretty much the majority of college students will always support 24/7/365 5-min frequency transit to take them everywhere (free of charge for students with uni. card of course!) without needed to pay the hefty costs of car or facing geographic exclusion of cool places to hangout because they are not served by transit.


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## calaguyo (Nov 28, 2008)

diablo234 said:


> In the US I think it is more of a generational issue.
> 
> Typically older people are against mass transit while younger people (ie people in their 20's and 30's) are for expanding it even further.


I don't think older people in the US are opposed to mass transit, it is more of a preference I guess. Having private vehicle is still more convenient even if you live in HK or SG where mass transportation quality is at its best. 

Taking mass transit means you have to haggle seat with other (insensitive) people, overcrowded, the not so good smell, the need of walking another 100-200 meters from bus/train station going to your final destinations. 

But there are ways to improve mass transit and make it older-people friendly. In Singapore, the seats nearby the doors are reserved for older people, disabled, pregnant women, parent with kids etc...Overcrowdedness can be reduced by either increasing the capacity and frequency of mass transport.


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## Wildfire-KRR (Jan 4, 2012)

In Russia mass transit isn't opposed as it remains to be common among people of different ages and different levels of income. Some people don't even plan buying a car because of bad traffic or difficulties finding a parking space in downtown areas (where most people work). But most people don't think this way of course and they eventually buy a car if they afford it.

As for local authorities' attitude towards public transit, their support is often scarce as buses/tramways/trolley buses tend to be gradually expelled by low-capacity buses ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshrutka ) in many cities. Although popular among young people, such buses are unsafe and uncomfortable (they are often overcrowded even though maximum allowed capacity is 13-21 people).
Only Moscow and St.Petersburg have well-developed underground systems. 5 more cities do have underground but it coveres few districts and some lines can be described as running "from nowhere to nowhere".


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## shree711 (Dec 12, 2011)

In Hong Kong, people LOVE mass transit. In fact, they will tell you that there is no need for private transport (not including taxis) in Hong Kong.

90% of daily travels are done on public transport. Bus (KMB, Citybus, NWFB etc.), MTR, Ferry etc.


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## SydneyCity (Nov 14, 2010)

It depends on what kind of neighbourhood it is. If it is a McMansion-style suburban area, then people wouldn't be too keen on mass transit (however most don't oppose it). There is very much a "I live in a massive house, therefore I am above using buses and trains" type mentality out there.

However, in inner city areas (and increasingly suburban hubs like Parramatta and Chatswood), many (most in some areas) people don't own cars, so rely on mass transit, and are therefore much more supportive of it. Even those with cars tend to be supportive of mass transit. The demographics of those areas could have something to do with it, typically they are a mix of younger people (typically more likely to use mass transit due to a variety of reasons) and people of Asian descent (more likely to use mass transit as in their home countries mass transit use is much higher than in Australia).


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

In Estonia, the attitude is: you use public transport if you're too young, too old or too poor to own a car. It's starting to change a bit but not much.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

SE9 said:


> That's a real view I observed in Atlanta and several other US cities I've visited extensively: public transport being negatively associated with the poor.


That's the same view they have in most 3rd world countries, including Russia and obviously the USA.

If they see someone waiting for the bus or riding his bicycle people think:

Oh poor fellow he can't afford a car :gossip:

In Sweden; driving your car in downtown, bystanders will look at you and
say:

Oh look at him what a reckless person polluting the environment.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

shree711 said:


> In Hong Kong, people LOVE mass transit. In fact, they will tell you that there is no need for private transport (not including taxis) in Hong Kong.
> 
> 90% of daily travels are done on public transport. Bus (KMB, Citybus, NWFB etc.), MTR, Ferry etc.


HK's public transport system is clean, diverse, efficient and among the best in the world. Plus it is frequent so I would not be surprised if HKers would prefer to commute than drive.

But not all areas in HK is served well by public transportation. Places like Hong Lok Yuen, Fairview Park, Shouson Hill or Shek O' have buses that do not run that frequent.

Those living there though can afford a car.


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## shree711 (Dec 12, 2011)

Manila-X said:


> HK's public transport system is clean, diverse, efficient and among the best in the world. Plus it is frequent so I would not be surprised if HKers would prefer to commute than drive.
> 
> But not all areas in HK is served well by public transportation. Places like Hong Lok Yuen, Fairview Park, Shouson Hill or Shek O' have buses that do not run that frequent.
> 
> Those living there though can afford a car.


I think that those places have a charm of having no transport although they actually do. But to be honest, its just a bus/minibus or two.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

There is a clear city/rural divide in Austria but public transportation has a rather positive image across the country even if people complain about various aspects. In the bigger cities and most certainly in Vienna transit systems are heavily used and in Vienna I know of many people who do not own a car even if they could afford two or more of them.


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## shree711 (Dec 12, 2011)

Slartibartfas said:


> There is a clear city/rural divide in Austria but public transportation has a rather positive image across the country even if people complain about various aspects. In the bigger cities and most certainly in Vienna transit systems are heavily used and in Vienna I know of many people who do not own a car even if they could afford two or more of them.


My family bought our first car 2 years ago. Its common here not to use cars. We do not use our car often.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

shree711 said:


> My family bought our first car 2 years ago. Its common here not to use cars. We do not use our car often.


Whether you have a car or not, where will you drive in HK? The fact you can go almost everywhere with public transportation. 

Even if you drive north of the border, you neighbor up north drives on the right hand side.

Unless HK adapts this system of driving.


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## shree711 (Dec 12, 2011)

Manila-X said:


> Whether you have a car or not, where will you drive in HK? The fact you can go almost everywhere with public transportation.
> 
> Even if you drive north of the border, you neighbor up north drives on the right hand side.
> 
> Unless HK adapts this system of driving.


I quite like driving on the "wrong" side


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## kauebraga (Nov 28, 2007)

shree711 said:


> My family bought our first car 2 years ago. Its common here not to use cars. We do not use our car often.


I wish I could do that... Here, when you start earning some money, the first thing you do is buy a car. You don't have another option.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

kauebraga said:


> I wish I could do that... Here, when you start earning some money, the first thing you do is buy a car. You don't have another option.


If you have enough money, than that is not a problem.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

shree711 said:


> I quite like driving on the "wrong" side


The possibility for both HK and Macao to switch to the right are *very slim*. And most HKers do not care about it since they prefer commuting than driving.

Unfortunately, this leaves little options for it's motorists to travel.


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

Here in Hartford, outside certain peak hour express buses, PT is seen a poor man's way to get around.

When I was in Boston last week, it was the opposite. The vast majority of the people I saw taking the T around seemed business-proper and educated. I guess perhaps that is due to the fact that you have to be pretty dumb to commute by car in that city. :lol:



diablo234 said:


> Typically older people are against mass transit while younger people (ie people in their 20's and 30's) are for expanding it even further.


From my observations, I noticed that elderly people take transit more than the middle aged people. Add the paratransit services also that are almost exclusively used by seniors.


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## shree711 (Dec 12, 2011)

Manila-X said:


> The possibility for both HK and Macao to switch to the right are *very slim*. And most HKers do not care about it since they prefer commuting than driving.
> 
> Unfortunately, this leaves little options for it's motorists to travel.


I just hope that when the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge opens, Hong Kong cars will be able to drive to Macao without extra number plates.


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## Marcanadian (May 7, 2005)

There's wide support for transit in Toronto, although disagreements on the type and who should pay for it. We recently had a lengthy debate on LRT's vs subways. Many felt that subways were worth the investment and that LRT's would disrupt vehicular traffic, while others thought LRT's served the communities better as their densities weren't high enough for subway service. 

I'd say most cities in Canada are very supportive of transit. Cross-country train travel is a different story though. The national train service, Via Rail, is subsidized by the Federal government, but is still fairly expensive for people. There's a general appreciation for rail in Canada, but if it's too expensive, people will drive for short trips or fly for longer ones.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Manila-X said:


> Whether you have a car or not, where will you drive in HK? The fact you can go almost everywhere with public transportation.
> 
> Even if you drive north of the border, you neighbor up north drives on the right hand side.
> 
> Unless HK adapts this system of driving.


Hong Kong vehicles need an additional Guangdong plate in order to cross the border and drive on the "wrong side". With that plate, there are no restrictions on where the Hong Kong cars can go. Recently, there was a plan to allow China-plated drivers to drive in Hong Kong as part of an expanded tourism scheme, which met protest among the local populace.

There was a time when Citybus drove its right-hand-wheeled double deckers into Shenzhen and even Guangzhou.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Marcanadian said:


> There's wide support for transit in Toronto, although disagreements on the type and who should pay for it. We recently had a lengthy debate on LRT's vs subways. Many felt that subways were worth the investment and that LRT's would disrupt vehicular traffic, while others thought LRT's served the communities better as their densities weren't high enough for subway service.
> 
> I'd say most cities in Canada are very supportive of transit. Cross-country train travel is a different story though. The national train service, Via Rail, is subsidized by the Federal government, but is still fairly expensive for people. There's a general appreciation for rail in Canada, but if it's too expensive, people will drive for short trips or fly for longer ones.


Yes, it's more a funding issue from the government and it's quite frustrating that study after study is done, all the options are discussed to death, but in the end nothing can happen because the money is not there. A couple of years later, the next government refreshes these studies, spends a lot of money updating them, and the cycle repeats.

Given Canada's vast distance, even between Toronto and Montreal, I'd say flying is the best option. It'll be too expensive to implement a 300 km/h HSR connection between the 2 to make the journey competitive with flying.


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## shree711 (Dec 12, 2011)

Marcanadian said:


> There's wide support for transit in Toronto, although disagreements on the type and who should pay for it. We recently had a lengthy debate on LRT's vs subways. Many felt that subways were worth the investment and that LRT's would disrupt vehicular traffic, while others thought LRT's served the communities better as their densities weren't high enough for subway service.
> 
> I'd say most cities in Canada are very supportive of transit. Cross-country train travel is a different story though. The national train service, Via Rail, is subsidized by the Federal government, but is still fairly expensive for people. There's a general appreciation for rail in Canada, but if it's too expensive, people will drive for short trips or fly for longer ones.


Cross country trains wouldn't really work in Canada. Its too damn big. They'd have to bet big on high-speed.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

Honestly I do not feel comfortable in using the terms, "correct side" or "wrong side" since we might have issues on this. 

The British will claim the system of driving is the correct way though the majority drives with the other system.


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## Marcanadian (May 7, 2005)

shree711 said:


> Cross country trains wouldn't really work in Canada. Its too damn big. They'd have to bet big on high-speed.


This is our current network, which serves most major cities:











Of course you're right, our population is far too low and our land is far too large to have an advanced rail system.


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## shree711 (Dec 12, 2011)

Manila-X said:


> Honestly I do not feel comfortable in using the terms, "correct side" or "wrong side" since we might have issues on this.
> 
> The British will claim the system of driving is the correct way though the majority drives with the other system.


I am use to left-side drive countries. I jokingly called it the wrong side .

Although, since we are right-hand drive, we can say that their steering wheels are on the wrong side.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

People in Canada are generally in favour of mass transit, but when it comes to paying for it the system is designed to starve municipalities of the funds to build/maintain mass transit.

The federal government has handed down the responsibility of transit to the provinces, but kept most of the taxation powers. The provinces, in turn, do the same thing to the municipalities. The end result are cash strapped cities who largely control mass transit, but have few revenue generating options to fund it.

The provinces and feds do chip in, but the financial burden falls mainly on cities.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Marcanadian said:


> This is our current network, which serves most major cities:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Regarding HSR, I do think we'll end up with one between Quebec City and Detroit. There are 28 million people on that corridor. We'll get a much shorter one connecting Montreal to New York: 4 million people at one end, 21 million on the other. 

If the US ever builds one from Portland to Seattle, it will likely continue on to Vancouver.


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## Marcanadian (May 7, 2005)

isaidso said:


> Regarding HSR, I do think we'll end up with one between Quebec City and Detroit. There are 28 million people on that corridor. We'll get a much shorter one connecting Montreal to New York: 4 million people at one end, 21 million on the other.
> 
> If the US ever builds one from Portland to Seattle, it will likely continue on to Vancouver.


I think that's a definite possibility since it's the busiest rail corridor. There's also talk about HSR between Calgary and Edmonton, which would be amazing since Calgary isn't currently served by Via.


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## Civilization01 (Oct 29, 2012)

NordikNerd said:


> That's the same view they have in most 3rd world countries, including Russia and obviously the USA.
> 
> If they see someone waiting for the bus or riding his bicycle people think:
> 
> ...


Funny as it is, my metro area (Minneapolis/st.paul & suburbs) is dominantly of Scandi descent. Half the state can claim to be half Scandinavian.

Yet many of our socio-economic-political views are the opposite of Scandinavia.

Many political candidates who lean to the right boast of privatizing all mass transit and block federal dollars for mass transit. Let alone stigmatize urban busses while put pressure on our metropolitan council to increase mass transit in the suburbs. So called left leaning politicians rarely publicly discuss mass transit and will sandwich mass transit priorities with items that Independant politicians cannot turn down. 

Therefore over the last several years frequency and the amount of routes in the city has shrunk, fares are some of the highest in the nation due to less state monies and profitable routes are given to private bus companies.

If you are a suburbanite you only use the bus or train to get downtown. If you are an urbanite you most likely have a car as would a suburbanite. Bicycling in the city is growing as a fad, but once the "coolness factor" wears off people will drive more.

Employers often turn down hires for not having a drivers license eventhough a bus stop is within view of corporate campus. The stigma is that people who dont drive and own a car are criminal, handicapped and most likely carrying the plague. 

Public perception can be altered by media and political policy, neither group wants to endorse a positive image of mass transit.

Urban route bus drivers often assume passengers are on public assistance or have criminal records. Yes there are plenty of opportunities to be more creeped out by bus operators than passengers. 

The public's rejection of mass transit development outside of suburban routes that go downtown has made my metro one of the best examples of urban sprawl.

A number of suburban routes whether provided by public transit or private buses go only to downtown in the morning and from downtown to the suburbs in the afternoon/evening aka "peak hours". In otherwords plenty of corporate campus' where there literally tens of thousands of middle class professional jobs have a bus route within a half mile but wont provide service coming from downtown.

No reverse commute offered, its blocked.

Therefore if you want to work a professional job, live in the suburbs and drive. Want to live in the city and work professionally? Move away.


Its fustrating. And embarrassing when transplants from much larger US cities ask me to clarify why mass transit works best if you live in the burbs. I live downtown and occassionally venture capitalists ask a person on the street for some real time details. 

Still some of our very busy urban routes are an amazing joy. People can be really fun, kinda like you arent in Minnesota for 15 minute escapes! Our 21 route is an excellent example.


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## Dahlis (Aug 29, 2008)

NordikNerd said:


> In Sweden; driving your car in downtown, bystanders will look at you and
> say:


Thats not true, maybe in the hippest part of Södermalm but not 99% of Stockholm.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Civilization01 said:


> Funny as it is, my metro area (Minneapolis/st.paul & suburbs) is dominantly of Scandi descent. Half the state can claim to be half Scandinavian.
> 
> Yet many of our socio-economic-political views are the opposite of Scandinavia.


Haha. Probably, they are tired of 'correctness' in everything and that is the reason they emigrated. :lol:


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

dj4life said:


> Haha. Probably, they are tired of 'correctness' in everything and that is the reason they emigrated. :lol:


Or you know, they emigrated 150-100 years ago, mostly because of famine or a lack of new arable land, and are by now thoroughly american in culture and political ideology. Scandinavia of the late 1800's was a very different place than Scandinavia of today.


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## shree711 (Dec 12, 2011)

In India, the poorer and lower middle classes tend to use mass transit more although that is changing a little in Delhi and to a lesser extent in Bangalore.


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

We have all in Switzerland. There is a majority that supports mass transit, and that's also the reason why mass transit is growing. But there are also a minority of the population that is very car friendly. Sometimes this leads to convicts because we lack of space and you have to decide if you want to use that space for roads or tracks.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

earthJoker said:


> Sometimes this leads to convicts because we lack of space and you have to decide if you want to use that space for roads or tracks.


Bury one or another in a tunnel, or elevate one or another 

Problem solved.


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

Suburbanist said:


> Bury one or another in a tunnel, or elevate one or another
> 
> Problem solved.


We probably have already one of the highest tunnel densities of the world (with the exception of some city states), unfortunately I don't have a statistic to back that up. And we still build new stuff like this:


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## shree711 (Dec 12, 2011)

^^

When I visited Switzerland, I was very impressed with public transport there and the punctuality I saw too.


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

In general I agree. Unfortunately the system is currently at the limit and that means that small problems can effect large parts of the network.


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## eddeux (Jun 16, 2010)

In my city it's for those who can't afford a car. Though in D.C. it seemed to be a 360. Taking public transportation is thankfully commonplace there.


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## Civilization01 (Oct 29, 2012)

dj4life said:


> Haha. Probably, they are tired of 'correctness' in everything and that is the reason they emigrated. :lol:


 
No actually the government confiscated our land, closed our synod and fishing lanes were restricted.


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## Civilization01 (Oct 29, 2012)

Adde said:


> Or you know, they emigrated 150-100 years ago, mostly because of famine or a lack of new arable land, and are by now thoroughly american in culture and political ideology. Scandinavia of the late 1800's was a very different place than Scandinavia of today.


Actually Minnesota is very different than the rest of the USA. Very. 

and Scandinavia was not a utopia when my family left. Very much the opposite.


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