# [F] France | road infrastructure • autoroutes de France



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think you can count the A28 or A26 to the Paris beltway, they are like 100 or more kilometers away from the city.

By the way, i just calculated i drove 39,85% of the French Autoroutes :lol:


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## Blijdorp

I think the french motorways are really good. i like the way they blend into the landscape, for example the A20 crossing the Lot near Cahors(sorry can't find a picture). 
A downside is that sometimes it is a very long ride to get to the motorway in some areas and that most roads run north-south and not east-west.


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## ChrisZwolle

Blijdorp said:


> for example the A20 crossing the Lot near Cahors(sorry can't find a picture).


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## Verso

I love French motorways, they are great, but rare exits bother me, and a quite 'old-looking' fonts on signs (or it's b/c of "R" :lol. Why don't signs shine, like e.g. in the Netherlands; signs not shining look old to me. 

Otherwise cheers to the fabulous French motorways! :cheers:


Oh, and I don't like the 'nationalistic' signage either.


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## juanico

Nephasto said:


> Really?... Well... let's start for example in the southwesternmost corner of France:
> -The road from Pau to the spanish border is just a crappy road... certainly not an expressways.
> -The road from Tarbes to Auch and Agen is just a regular road, not expressway
> -The road from Bordeux to Auch and Toulouse is just a regular road, not expressway, with some short 2x2 sections.
> -The road from Foix to Perpignan is just a regular road, not expressway, with some short 2x2 sections. Only the stretch near Perpignan is an expressway
> 
> 
> ... And I could go on and on...


I said that the _vast majority_ were, not _all_.

And you know as I do that _the southwesternmost corner of France_ is not really representative of what the french motorways/expressways network actually is: 2 out of your 4 examples are mountain roads in the Pyrénées..., the 2 other ones are roads crossing a _département_ - the Gers - which not only being one of the least populated in France (a rural desert in other words) is under an order ("arrêté préfectoral") which forbids expressways on its territory (for natural preservation)...

Anyway this map has been made by a foreign forumer, nothing official.


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## juanico

Verso said:


> Oh, and I don't like the 'nationalistic' signage either.


What do you mean by that?


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## Verso

^ Signs showing just Milan, Turin, Barcelonne (the spelling?), Saarbruck, Bâle (here I think there's also Basel in brackets) etc., like Belgium usually.


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## Nephasto

juanico said:


> I said that the _vast majority_ were, not _all_.
> 
> And you know as I do that _the southwesternmost corner of France_ is not really representative of what the french motorways/expressways network actually is: 2 out of your 4 examples are mountain roads in the Pyrénées..., the 2 other ones are roads crossing a _département_ - the Gers - which not only being one of the least populated in France (a rural desert in other words) is under an order ("arrêté préfectoral") which forbids expressways on its territory (for natural preservation)...
> 
> Anyway this map has been made by a foreign forumer, nothing official.



Yes, ok. It's not a big deal. I just wanted to point out that many of those blue routes aren't expressways.
And even major roads like N-10 just have some sections with 2x2 intercalated by regular road sections. It's messy and only some of the 2x2 (I would say not the majority, based on viamichelin maps) are up to motorway standards.

But, as I've also refered, in Bretagne for example, all (or almost all) of the blue routes are expressways with motorway standards, so in that case, they work just like autoroutes, but with a diferent name. Like that section of N-10 in between Bordeux and Biarritz, were there's no paralel autoroute.


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## Minato ku

Chris1491 said:


> I don't think you can count the A28 or A26 to the Paris beltway, they are like 100 or more kilometers away from the city.
> 
> By the way, i just calculated i drove 39,85% of the French Autoroutes :lol:


Yes but these motorway was built for that's it is the "Grand Contournement de Paris". :lol:
________________________________________________________________

If you like that. The french sign in Paris metro :lol:


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## ChrisZwolle

I used the A28 last year to avoid Paris. A bit longer but much faster. It's a shame that there ain't a good bypass near Paris, in particular a tollroad with only 3 exits near Paris or so. So through traffic can use the tollway, and local traffic uses the A3/A86/A4 etc.


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## Minato ku

It is a shame, exept if you like traffic jam. :lol:


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## Nephasto

Yeah... I'd say that from all the big cities in europe, Paris is in the top of those you want to avoid in a long trip.
Exactly because it's very difficult to avoid gettin on the peripherique. There are just some confusing stretches of motorway around Paris, but the peripherique is the only complete expressway around Paris. And for using the other(many but baddly connected) stretcher of motorways around Paris you've got to know them, because the signaling doesn't help. For example, if you come from the south, in the A-10 and want to go to the north to the A-1, the signing you send you through the peripherique, although it would be possible to avoid it using several diferent freeways... it's just too confusing.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ That's wrong!

From the A10, you see Lille signed all the way to the A1! Southbound, you see Nantes-Lyon-Bordeaux signed all the way to the A6/A10! 

You are send via the A3/A86/A4/A86 connection.


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## Minato ku

This is the incredible plan for freeway and motorway for Paris in the 1970's

Paris region









red : Motorway built
dark purple : deleted
green : renamed project
orange : plan Pompidou (freeway in the center of Paris) deleted
light purple : freeways built
brown : project approved.

plan Pompidou for inner Paris










Double blue line : freeway. (6 at 8 lanes)
Dark blue line : avenue, boulevard without intersection or single way freeway for the Seine banks.
light blue line : avenue or boulevard with underground passage.
blue circle : interchange


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## Nephasto

Chris1491 said:


> ^^ That's wrong!
> 
> From the A10, you see Lille signed all the way to the A1! Southbound, you see Nantes-Lyon-Bordeaux signed all the way to the A6/A10!
> 
> You are send via the A3/A86/A4/A86 connection.


That's good news!

Last time I passed in Paris I had to went to the peripherique, but that was some years ago.


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## ChrisZwolle

I can show some pics from autoroutes.free.fr

on the A10 heading for Paris:










Near the Boulevard Périphérique.









Soutbound, Bordeaux-Nantes-Lyon is signed all the time.









Maybe it's different on the BP, never been there.


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## Verso

Chris1491 said:


> Maybe it's different on the BP, never been there.


You haven't been on the Boulevard Périphérique yet?!  Considering you're a freeway fanatic, that's a crime!


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## ChrisZwolle

If i was a real fanatic, i should be around Madrid too. (never been there). That's the ultimate mecca for drivers in Europe. They have like 5 beltways, and the biggest urban freeway system in Europe. Now that's hot


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## juanico

Nephasto said:


> That's good news!
> 
> Last time I passed in Paris I had to went to the peripherique, but that was some years ago.


Here's some tip for you next time you coming here :

on the _autoroutes_ around Paris, the road signs have different levels of reading, the upper sign always indicates the main direction (cardinal points) as following : LILLE = North (by A1) / METZ - NANCY = East ( by A4) / BORDEAUX - NANTES - LYON = South (by A5, A6, A10) / ROUEN = West (by A13)

The lower sign indicates from top to bottom :
- the main points of reference of Paris area (which are Marne-la-Vallée, Fontenay, Bobigny for the East : Créteil, Evry for the South ; Versailles, Nanterre for the West ; Cergy-Pontoise, St Denis, Sarcelles for the North ; and of course Paris for the centre) 
- and then the local exits.

On a picture taken from above I have highlighted the 3 levels of reference:
- national (cardinal points)
- Paris area
- local (next exit)
_(that's generality of course, some signs at the crossing of several highways/expressways are really a mess)_










Once you know that you should be able to avoid the _Périphérique_ and take the right road


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## Nephasto

^^Thank's for the excelent explanation! kay:

This summer I'm travelling from the south (A10) to Calais, and back, but I'il avoid Paris by using the A28.  It's an excelet bypass, I just don't understand why it doesn't bypass Rouen.. I'il have to go through it using an avenue, from what I see in the maps.

Anyway, next year I'm going to spend a semester (2nd semester of 07/08) studying in Paris, so I should get to know the motorway system.


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## ChrisZwolle

Rouen is okay to drive through, i did so last year. You have a short section which is a boulevard with traffic lights, and you have to pay attention to the signs. 

The A28 to Calais is much shorter than via Paris anyway. Take a good look on the A28 if you like sports cars, a lot of rich (or pretend-rich) British people like to take a trip there.


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## eomer

Chris1491 said:


> Rouen is okay to drive through, i did so last year. You have a short section which is a boulevard with traffic lights, and you have to pay attention to the signs.


If you travel on North-South axis, it's better to avoid Paris by using A26 or A28.
You have to drive through Rouen or Reims but there are projects to change it.


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## ChrisZwolle

A26 is one of the most boring Autoroutes by the way, but a fast connection, with more British people than French dudes on the road.


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## Nephasto

Chris1491 said:


> Take a good look on the A28 if you like sports cars, a lot of rich (or pretend-rich) British people like to take a trip there.



I'il check that out.


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## Minato ku

It is why the motorway is called "Autoroute des Anglais" _Motorway of english_.


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## eomer

minato ku said:


> It is why the motorway is called "Autoroute des Anglais" _Motorway of english_.


Wrong: _Autoroute des Anglais_ is A26. A28 has no name for the moment: _Autoroute des Estuaires_ use partially A28 between Abbeville and Rouen.


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## ChrisZwolle

I think he means A26, because we were talking about the A26 earlier.


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## ChrisZwolle

:banana: 

The French government will extend the A34 (Reims - Charleville-Mézières) to the Belgium border south of Charleroi! It will cost 330 million euro's. 
Works will begin this fall and should be completed somewhere 2011. 
:cheers:


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## Nephasto

^^Goods news.
Are the belguium planning on building a motorway on their side of the border too?


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes, an A5 is planned from Charleroi to Rocroi. 

They will start construction in 2008 to 2012. 









It is one of the most quiet motorways i've ever seen.


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## Minato ku

The A4 in Paris

















The peripherique (inner Paris beltway)


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## ChrisZwolle

I like those minute signs. You see a lot of VMS in France.


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## Minato ku

Yes I like it too, 8 minutes for go at Porte de Bercy the traffic is heavy but fluid.

The A4 motorway is really scenic at the entrance in Paris you see, subway bridge, railway bridge, ugly high rises blocks, modern offices buildings, and many u/c buildings.

An other scenic freeway in Paris is the N118, you take it at the A86 N118exchange in Velizy and some kilometers farther you see a beautiful view of la Defense.


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## ChrisZwolle

Is that near the A14 interchange?


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## Minato ku

Not really since it is in the other side of the A86 motorway, and the tunnel is not opened yet. so the better for go here it's to take the A6 motorways change for the A86 motorway in the direction of Versailles and at Velizy you will see a big freeway interchange, to the N118 to Porte de St Cloud, but in fact the freeway stop at the bridge in the Seine, the section in Boulogne Billancourt to Porte de St Cloud is a big boulevard. it is like the end of the A14 and the boulevard in Neuilly


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## ChrisZwolle

Black saturday tomorrow. It will be busy.


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## Minato ku

A more detailled map of Paris motorways and freeways.
_I know a worse system for a big city, the one of London._


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## ChrisZwolle

Time for some pics :cheers: 

*A2 - A23 - A1 - A27*

E19/A2 (B) - Valenciennes - Lille - Aéroport - A27/E429 (B)

*84 pics, Picasa webalbum*










enjoy :cheers:


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## Minato ku

Thanks  

How is Lille freeway systems ?
A signifiant part is in Belgium


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## ChrisZwolle

Lille A25 is said to be horrible towards Dunkerque. The A22 has some old signage, aswell as the A27 and A23 as can be seen in the pics.
The A1 is okay, mostly busy, but okay. The N356 is a fast connection.

If you follow the signs Gand (Gent) you are being directed eastwards around Lille via Tournai and Kortrijk (Courtrai). But when you follow Lille N356/A22 you're usually faster outside rushhours.


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## ChrisZwolle

Today is the first black saturday. It's now already very busy on the road to southern France:

A7 between Chanas and Loriol 69km traffic jam
between Montélimar-Nord and Bollène 36km traffic jam
A9 between Gallargues and Sète 49km traffic jam
between Perpignan-Nord and Spanish border 40km traffic jam
A71 between Montmarault and Clermont-Fd-Est 70km traffic jam

delays in individual traffic jams over 1 hr. Other Autoroutes are packed aswell.


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## Minato ku

The traffic in Paris was horrible.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, i got a SMS from my friend who was in traffic jam in Paris... at 2:30 am!


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## Cicerón

I have a question:

I've been told that the "Lille", "Strasbourg", "Lyon", "Bordeaux", etc. signages on the Périphérique have been replaced by "A1", "A3"... signages. 

Is that true? I suppose it is. Why? Do you have any pics?


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## Cyril

minato ku said:


> Do you know the The fourth beltway of Paris.


lol, this circular motorway has no real metropolitan use for the Paris region.
It's just a way to detour Paris for both provincial and foreign travellers.

But may be it will behave like a metropolitan belt in the future.


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## Minato ku

It was just a joke :lol:


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## ChrisZwolle

Longest traffic jam now in France:
A7 Lyon -> Marseille
between Condrieu and Bollène 163km jammed.


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## Minato ku

Wow Holiday... Holiday = huge traffic jam. :lol:


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## Cyril

Today around noon :


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## lpioe

^^ I guess red means jammed.
What means grey/green?


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## ChrisZwolle

green = free flow
grey = no data


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## eomer

Chris1491 said:


> green = free flow
> grey = no data


Grey are free motorway and your map is given by operators of toll motorways.


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## ChrisZwolle

Jup so they have no data of it


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## CborG

Any chance of a extension of the french A66 towards spains C-16? It could be very useful for through traffic, especially in the summer. It would be very expensive though.


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## Nephasto

^^No... don't think so. 
It would have to cross the pirenees, so besides the high cost you would porbably have an unnaceptable environmental impact.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ They should widen the AP7/A9 to at least 2x3 lanes all the way, and remove the stupid border station, causes too many traffic jams.


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## Nephasto

^^They are going to do that soon (there's already a project but I think the works haven't started yet.
The AP-7 will become 2x3 all the way from Tarragona till the border, with 2x4 in the Girona bypass (which will be free of charge).

I hope the french also widen the A-9 from Perpignan to the border! And the removal of the border station would be great too.


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## Nephasto

Also, on the spanish side they are building the A-2 paralel to the AP-7 (from the end of the C-32 till at least Figueres... I don't know what are they going to do at the border).
It will be a nice and modern freeway, although it will have a design speed of 100km/h, which is compreensible (not using a 120km/h design speed), because there's already a parallel toll motorway. Still, that doesn't mean it will be limited to 100. It just means that there can be som stretches limited to 100. Which isn't too important for the regular user. 
And almost all the trucks will use it instead of the AP-7 for sure.


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## ChrisZwolle

> And almost all the trucks will use it instead of the AP-7 for sure.


Yeah as said, i drove the A2 once from Lleida eastward. Incredible amount of trucks, but almost no trucks on the AP2 in the same direction.


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## Nephasto

^^Yeah. And this future stretch of the A-2 (from the C-32 to the border) will be much better than the old stretch of the A-2 between Lleida and Barcelona, so it will only help.


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## ChrisZwolle

The most black saturday is tomorrow. Expect hundreds of kilometers of traffic jams, on all routes to the south. 

Especially the A6 from Paris to Lyon, the A7 Lyon to Orange, the A8 Aix-en-Pce to Nice, the A9 Orange to Perpignan, the A10 from Paris to Bordeaux, the A40 from Mâcon to Chamonix, the A41, A42, A43, A48 in the Alps, the A46 ringroad of Lyon, A61 from Toulouse to Narbonne, the A62 from Bordeaux to Toulouse, the A64 from Toulouse to Tarbes, the A71 for Clermont-Ferrand, A72 near St.Étienne, A75 near Béziers etc. 

Traffic jams will start before sunrise and last till sunset. 

Traffic will be bad in Spain, Germany, Switzerland and Austria too. Expect at least 2 - 4 hours waiting time before you can enter several tunnels in the Alps. 

So, you'd better don't hit the road at all tomorrow.


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## lpioe

Nephasto said:


> ^^They are going to do that soon (there's already a project but I think the works haven't started yet.
> The AP-7 will become 2x3 all the way from Tarragona till the border, with 2x4 in the Girona bypass (which will be free of charge).
> 
> I hope the french also widen the A-9 from Perpignan to the border! And the removal of the border station would be great too.


Isn't 2x4 a bit exaggerated for Girona bypass?

If they widen the A-9 from Perpignan to the border and the AP-7 till Tarragona you would have 2x3 from Lyon until Tarragona, right?


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## x-type

Nephasto said:


> The AP-7 will become 2x3 all the way from Tarragona till the border, with 2x4 in the Girona bypass (which will be free of charge).


khm, more toll boots there... i don't like that idea. (bte i like extending it to 2x3 and 2x4)


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## Nephasto

lpioe said:


> Isn't 2x4 a bit exaggerated for Girona bypass?


Well, remember it will accumulate the trafic of AP-7 plus the traffic of N-II(A-2), and will be free of charge. So it seems like a good idea to be wider than the rest of the AP-7 to me.




lpioe said:


> If they widen the A-9 from Perpignan to the border and the AP-7 till Tarragona you would have 2x3 from Lyon until Tarragona, right?


Well, no, because the A-9 stretch from the A-8 untill Nimes is just 2x2 at the moment. But maybe they willl widen it to 2x3 by the time all of this is done...


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## Nephasto

^^Actually the 2x3 starts before Nimes, but I think there are still some 30km's or so that are 2x2.


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## ChrisZwolle

A9 from Perpignan to the Spanish border is also only 2x2 lanes. And so it the A9 between Orange and Nîmes. But against this massive holiday traffic, even 2x5 lanes won't work, it all gets stuck at the toll gates.

Especially near Perpignan, first you have a toll station, then the road narrows to 2x2 lanes, then a climb (slow trucks) and finally on the border, still a 10km/h limit on the low pass. Old customs houses are still in place there too. 

But the biggest problems are on the A7 between Vienne and Orange. It's always busy, and a lot of trucks there, not only north-south, but also a lot of traffic from Central Europe to Spain/Southern France takes that route. 
However, there are plans to widen the A7 to 2x5 lanes all the way from Givors to Orange, or an alternative is to build a parallel motorway all the way from Vienne to Béziers on the A9. That is about 300km.


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## Nephasto

Chris1491 said:


> A9 from Perpignan to the Spanish border is also only 2x2 lanes.


I know, but what he ask me was assuming that would be widened to 2x3 too.




Chris1491 said:


> But the biggest problems are on the A7 between Vienne and Orange. It's always busy, and a lot of trucks there, not only north-south, but also a lot of traffic from Central Europe to Spain/Southern France takes that route.
> However, there are plans to widen the A7 to 2x5 lanes all the way from Givors to Orange, or an alternative is to build a parallel motorway all the way from Vienne to Béziers on the A9. That is about 300km.



That would be very cool. The first 2x5 in France, and probably one of the longest 2x5 stretches in the world.
As that motorway has the exits far apart, I think 5 lanes to each direction would be feasible and wouldn't create too much confusion, so I say: "Go on and build the damn thing!".


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## ChrisZwolle

There are already some 5 lane stretches in France; on the A7 northward near Orange and on the A6 southbound near Beaune.

However they are marked as normal lanes, they could be considered merging lanes, since it is the exact amount of lanes coming together there (2 from A9, 3 from A7), which have to merge on the 3 lanes to Valence/Lyon.


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## Minato ku

And the A4 is also 2x5 but it is in Paris.


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## Nephasto

^^Arg! But that's urban, so I'm not considering it! :colgate:



Chris1491 said:


> However they are marked as normal lanes, they could be considered merging lanes, since it is the exact amount of lanes coming together there (2 from A9, 3 from A7), which have to merge on the 3 lanes to Valence/Lyon.


Exactly, so that doesn't count.


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## ChrisZwolle

Busy again

On the A7 164km of traffic jam between Condrieu and Bollène

On the A9 140km of traffic jam between Nîmes-Est and Narbonne-Est


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## marrio415

So paris to has an orbital motorway just like our M25 motorway around london.I like paris never been but like it


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Paris has actually 3 ringroads, but none of them are completely build or up to motorwaystandards, and none of them is as big as the M25 motorway. \

The first is the Boulevard Péripherique. It doesn't have a number, but in encircles the city proper of Paris. It is 35km long, and has a lot of exits, usually no further than 1 km apart.

The second ring is the A86, which isn't complete, and not all the way an Autoroute. It has a section missing between Versailles and Rueil-Malmaison. This ringroad is 73km long today.

The outter ringroad is the N104, an circular road which goes from Pontoise to Janvry, with a whole section missing on the westside of Paris. This road is not completely up to motorway standards, and only a section between the A1 and A4 on the eastside of Paris is signed as a real motorway. The N104/A104 is 117km long. 

There aren't good alternatives to go wider around Paris. Because of the radial system around Paris, the next north-south route is the A26, which is 140km to the east at its closest. 
The problem in Paris is, that through traffic takes the A3/A86/A4/A86 route or the A1/BP/A6 route, so it conflicts with local traffic.


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## juanico

^^ Chris you previously showed you knew quite well the french road network, but I have to correct some things. First of all :


> Paris has actually 3 ringroads, but none of them are completely build or up to motorwaystandards


The _'Périphérique'_ *is* complete, as you mentioned it is a 35 km ring road, even if it has a particular status, but that's administrative lingo and surely doesn't take away anything to its freeway function.

By your presentation it sounds like _A86_ and _'Francilienne'_ (_A104_) were freeways on some parts, and on other parts not, while they are actually 100% freeways no matter if some sections are called _'N'_ (_N186 _and _N104_) instead of _'A'_, that's administrative lingo again.

Anyway the _A86_ loop is going to be complete by 2010, the last missing section is currently under construction - a 10 km tunnel. Total length will then be 87 km.

The _'Francilienne'_ should be extended to some more 25 km in the West (between _A15_ and _A13_), but that should be it, so it probably would never make a full ring, but instead a horseshoe-like road of 154 km.

The map (as of today):








in yellow, the _'Périphérique'_,
in red, _A86_ (dots show the section u/c),
in green, the _'Francilienne'_,
in blue, radial highways/freeways.


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## DanielFigFoz

I was stuck at the France/Spain border for 3 hours to pay 1€ each side of the border...


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## wyqtor

I think the French motorway tolling system is set up in a very unfortunate way - for us, that is. You have to stop and pay every 60 km or so, on average (at least that's what I'm guessing), when coming from Genova and going to Spain. IMO it is a disaster compared to the quite efficient Italian fully-"closed" one. 

In Italy, you can go all the way from any border to another with stopping to pay and/or get a ticket ONLY when passing near large cities (as those motorway sections service local traffic as well and are consequently toll-free).


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ That's not very true, if i drive to southern France, i get on the tollway near Toul, and i only have to pay tolls near Lyon. That's a few hundred kilometers.


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## x-type

that's because of ununited concessions i think. it's true that you have quite often toll stations while driving at A8: first one after exit 56 to Monte Carlo, then after exit to Nice Airport, 3rd near Antibes -> all are open styled. near Frejus you have one more, but it is close styled, so you tkat a ticket which lasts till Aix en Prov. 
At Lançon you takt new one and you're paying very soon before Arles because there is end of motorway (and beginning od N113 expressway). After Arles ticket again and soon paying, after Nîmes. And then after Montpellier you takt a ticket that you can drive long route with - to Spanish border. 
so, that's 11 stops -> quite much. fortunately, it's only in south France

Montpellier will get new bypass so those 2 toll stations will be bypassed, too


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## wyqtor

Chris1491 said:


> ^^ That's not very true, if i drive to southern France, i get on the tollway near Toul, and i only have to pay tolls near Lyon. That's a few hundred kilometers.


Thank God, I thought it was like this everywhere in France :nuts: .


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## Cyril

wyqtor said:


> Thank God, I thought it was like this everywhere in France :nuts: .


It is especially true in urban areas (on the Riviera for instance) but outside those, on the whole you can drive hundreds of km without being annoyed by recurrent barriers. The famous exception is motorway A13 in Normandy.


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## ChrisZwolle

What is the longest section you can drive without getting through toll boots?

Paris - Lyon or Reims - Lyon?


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## x-type

Chris1491 said:


> What is the longest section you can drive without getting through toll boots?
> 
> Paris - Lyon or Reims - Lyon?


i think that the longest would be if you take A4 from Reims, A26 at Chalons, A5 at Troyes, A31 at Langres, A39 at Dijon, A40 at Bourg en Bresse and take direction Geneve - you have toll barrier at Valleiry about 10 km before junction to Geneve. of yourse, it could be longer, but i'm considering only about logical routes without unneccessarly circulating


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## KB

^^ yes I think that is the longest :yes:


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## phubben

Here's a schematic map I made of the Lille Metropolitan Area's (Aire Metropolitaine de Lille) highway network :



It represents roads at least 2x2.

The Lille Métropole proper part is inside the circle Armentières-Wervik-Menen-Mouscron-Templeuve-Seclin.

Green=free
Blue=toll


----------



## De Snor

Chris1491 said:


> Lille A25 is said to be horrible towards Dunkerque.


It is !
From the spot where the A22 and the A1 merge towards the Lille city misery begins.
The A1 splits up in 2 : the A25 westward towards Dunkerque and the N356 northbound Roubaix/Kortrijk.
The A25 is a kind of Lille _phéripherique_ and is way to small until it reaches the N352 near Englos.
Traffic continues to be a real nightmare until Armentières.
After Bailleul the A25 is ok


----------



## phubben

The A25 is being re-built, but it takes a really long time!... The main problem is the coating that was used in the first place, it's made of concrete plates which is terrible!
I don't think it's too small though, when being used as a peripherique it is a 2x3/2x4 ways.
The region is building a big P+R at Armentières' train station, I hope it'll help decongestion it.


----------



## CborG

I have found some pics i've made during my vacation 2 years ago, We drove from Biarritz via Andorra towards Barcelona

The A64 somewhere near Lannemezan:










D117, somewhere near Saint-Girons:










D117, near Foix:










N20, Pas de la Casa, just before the border with Andorra. After that we took the tunnel Enough climbing for one day. Look at the snail, going where no other snail has gone










After spain we returned to the Pyrenees by following the N116 from Perpignan

N116, near Prades, this road is very busy, there was a traffic jam all the time at the passage through marquixanes. 










And this beautiful view on Mt.Canigou do you get when you leave the N116 and take the road to Espira de Conflent:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I have tons of pics.

A2 Belgium - Valenciennes
A4 Reims - Paris
A6 Lyon - Avallon
A7 Orange - Lyon
A9 Spain - Orange
A20 Vierzon - Montauban
A26 Troyes - Lille
A28 Rouen - Tours
A62 Montauban - Toulouse
A64 Toulouse - Lannemezan


----------



## rolex59

Chris1491 said:


> I have tons of pics.
> 
> A2 Belgium - Valenciennes
> A4 Reims - Paris
> A6 Lyon - Avallon
> A7 Orange - Lyon
> A9 Spain - Orange
> A20 Vierzon - Montauban
> A26 Troyes - Lille
> A28 Rouen - Tours
> A62 Montauban - Toulouse
> A64 Toulouse - Lannemezan


Hi everybody,

I am a member of this web site : http://wikisara.free.fr and we seek photographies of French roads or motorway to illustrate some articles.

So I will very interested by your photos Chris1491 !
Thank you every body


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://tammuz.interinter.net/countries/f/galleries

You can find my French pics here.


----------



## rolex59

Chris1491 said:


> http://tammuz.interinter.net/countries/f/galleries
> 
> You can find my French pics here.


Ok !

I will copie the link of these page in order to add these in our website.


----------



## Minato ku

*Peripherique* Paris

picture by Avialle 









picture by choudoudou


----------



## Reivajar

minato ku said:


> *Peripherique* Paris
> 
> picture by Avialle


La voie express fantôme? :lol: 

Really a curious HDR. You can see cars twice or even three times (yes, I know, bracketing). 

Talking about the BP, there are many problems due to the lack of emergency lanes?


----------



## [email protected]

> *Emergency/bus lane trial underway*
> 
> Technology from French firm Egis is forming the backbone for a new smart lane trial now operating in the city of Grenoble. The system allows buses to use the emergency lane at peak periods in the morning, when congestion is heavy and frequently brings traffic to a halt on the busy A48 highway into Grenoble. Business development manager at Egis Mobilité Fabien Dreveton explained that the system operates along a 5km stretch of the highway and uses technology to monitor traffic load and speed. When the speed of the traffic in the normal lanes drops lower than 50km/h, the system allows buses to move over into the emergency lane and travel at 50km/h. Should the speed of the traffic in the normal lanes drop below 30km/h or grind to a halt completely, the buses and coaches are speed restricted to 30km/h. The lane is controlled by a bank of cameras and VMS equipment and while Dreveton admits that the equipment and modifications needed are not inexpensive to install, the benefits to traffic flow (with the knock-on economic advantages these offer) can be substantial.
> 
> Entry points to the highway have been modified to give the buses priority, with lights to halt other traffic while other safety measures include additional emergency parking areas. This Government-backed trial may be extended to other cities such as Paris where traffic congestion is a problem, should it prove successful. Other possibilities for future applications of the system would be to allow trucks, taxis, high occupancy vehicles or motorcycles to use the emergency lane but for the purposes of this trial the system has been limited to buses and coaches only.


http://www.itsinternational.com/news/article.cfm?recordID=11776



















http://www.transisere.fr/


The A48 just before the "VSP" (Shared Specialized Lane):










More photos:
http://jeblanchard.free.fr/voiebusA48/voiebusA48.html


----------



## phubben

I saw something like that on a Paris region highway (on the Paris->Bordeaux I think), at a point you can see a bus station at highway level, passengers proceed to the station via a bridge over the highway and go down to the road level.
I wonder if it was already in service though.


----------



## [email protected]

phubben said:


> I saw something like that on a Paris region highway (on the Paris->Bordeaux I think), at a point you can see a bus station at highway level, passengers proceed to the station via a bridge over the highway and go down to the road level.


No, it's not the same thing.
Near Grenoble the buses/coaches *run on the emmergency lane* but *there is no stop on the highway*.
Near Paris the buses/coaches *run on the regular lanes* but *there is a stop on the highway*.

http://www.essonne.fr/ville_logement_deplacements/actualites/visualiser/formule_gagnante/


----------



## Chris_533976

Was in France a few weeks ago and travelled on the A40 from Cluses to Chamonix-Mont-Blanc and back.

Officially, the A40 ends just before the road heads up into the mountain, only because the road is not motorway quality. The road is infact dual up to the Mont Blanc tunnel, save for a small bit of S2 near Chamonix that is being upgraded.

Travelling along the A40 towards Chamonix -
















































At one point, just at the end of the A40, the road bears left and must travel up into a valley.

Going uphill is fine, you go up this very impressive and quite new viaduct (wonder if anyone on here has more info about it??).



















Impressive view of Mont Blanc at the top -












Coming down is another story. The viaduct is D2, and only carries uphill traffic. From what I can gather, the old road (both sides of it) is used as the downhill way. This leads to a downright dangerous (with a low speed limit) windy D2. Its quite an experience to drive it.




























Best shown in a video, you can see the uphill traffic on the viaduct too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoKi_kHaLSo

Then the road runs directly into the A40 "Autoroute Blanche" which takes us back to Cluses (and further). No wonder its not labelled A40 up to Chamonix!!!


----------



## wyqtor

^^ Thanks for those fabulous photos! Wow, you were so lucky you had good weather! I've been there last summer, it is tied for 1st place among my list of the most beautiful valleys in Europe. I think the Mont Blanc is the only thing in Western Europe that's comparable to what you might see in the Himalayas.

Actually, the road is 2x2 (voie exprès) only until the outskirts of Chamonix, it's a normal 2-lane road from there all the way up to the tunnel. Quite a climb (from trucks' perspective) and it's also got some hairpin turns.


----------



## Chris_533976

Thanks 

Viaduc des Egratz is the name of the viaduct if ye want to look it up more.


----------



## radi6404

wyqtor said:


> ^^ Thanks for those fabulous photos! Wow, you were so lucky you had good weather! I've been there last summer, it is tied for 1st place among my list of the most beautiful valleys in Europe. I think the Mont Blanc is the only thing in Western Europe that's comparable to what you might see in the Himalayas.
> 
> Actually, the road is 2x2 (voie exprès) only until the outskirts of Chamonix, it's a normal 2-lane road from there all the way up to the tunnel. Quite a climb (from trucks' perspective) and it's also got some hairpin turns.


Maybe Qyqtor, but you don´t have to go so far, I´ll show you new pics of the Rila mountain, they are not like Hymalaya but they are like some Canadian rockwalls, I went there this weekend and took very beautiful photos. there are aktually very steep peaks with big rocks and walls.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Stretch of A85 opens December 18th.


----------



## brisavoine

Perhaps the most breathtaking French motorway/freeway. I let you try to guess where it's located exactly.


----------



## Minato ku

brisavoine said:


> Perhaps the most breathtaking French motorway/freeway. I let you try to guess where it's located exactly.


^^ *Reunion island*. 
I lived here two years.
In this picture the right side is closed due at Landslide risk.
It is called "Route de la corniche" or "Route du littoral", opened in 1970's it is maybe the most expensive french road 
Speed limit : 110 km/h


----------



## brisavoine

Il fallait laisser les autres répondre alors si tu as vécu sur place.


----------



## Minato ku

Sorry. :doh:

An other one expensive freeway is in construction in Reunion island.
Called "route des Tamarins".

It will link this freeway at an other one near Saint Pierre (the second city of the island), actually the RN freeway (route du Littoral) link Saint Denis at Saint Paul (the third city in the island) after it is a crowded two lanes higway.


















Jacques Mossot Structurae


----------



## brisavoine

Minato ku said:


> Sorry. :doh:


Tend tes doigts, j'amène la règle.



Minato ku said:


> An other one expensive freeway is in construction in Reunion island.
> Called "route des Tamarins".


Tamarind Road is probably the most impressive European motorway/freeway under construction at the moment. The 34 km (21 miles) motorway will cost almost 1 billion euros. It will have impressive viaducts due to the volcanic landscape of Réunion.

The most impressive viaduct will be over the Grande Ravine canyon. This viaduct will be 300 meters/yards long, and at 170 meters (560 feet) above the bottom of the canyon, almost as impressive as the Millau Viaduct. Unusually these days, the regional council of Réunion has decided to chose the most expensive (but most breathtaking) viaduct. The president of the regional council said that it's not just a question of money, it's also a question of history and the visual effect that this viaduct will have for decades in the landscape of Réunion, so they prefered to pay more to have the most beautiful viaduct.




























In total this new motorway/freeway will have to cross no less than 120 canyons (not as large as the one above), and several impressive viaducts are under construction:


----------



## brisavoine

Réunion is also going to build a railway line, another colossal and impressive project that will cost 1.3 billion euros. A fantastic viaduct is planned, reportedly the highest railway viaduct in the world. It will be made of two viaducts dominating the ocean 200 meters/650 ft above sea-level and linked by a tunnel in between them. One viaduct is 730 meters/yards long and the other is 1,000 meters/yards long.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Très bien. Looks very good, i didn't expect to find such Autoroute construction here.


----------



## Minato ku

Actually Reunion island has 3 freeway.


N1 between Saint Denis and Saint Paul. (Called Route du Littoral between Saint Denis and la Possession)
N1 and N3 between Etant Sale, Saint Pierre and Le Tampon
RN2 between Saint Denis and Saint Benoit
The tamarind freeway is the link between Saint Paul and Etant Sale, all the big city of the island will be linked by freeway.


The route du Littoral wich the montaine side closed due at Landslide risk. 



















In normal.



























Freeway near Saint Paul









A freeway (I don't know which) I think it is near Saint Paul or Saint Denis









I don't know where it is. 









Near Saint Pierre


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> Le Tampon


Nice place to live... :lol:


----------



## x-type

:rofl:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I got the French road atlas from Michelin. (No Reunion in this atlas though  )

The first thing that one notice; the atlas has a Dutch version cover with an irritating flap! I think i'm gonna cut that off. 









Some carthography;


----------



## brisavoine

If you're interested in French overseas motorways, there are several more of them in other overseas departments and territories.

Here is a motorway in Martinique for example (this is the only overseas motorway which is officially called "autoroute" in French). Oddly they call it the A1 which is confusing because there's already a A1 between Paris and Lille.




























There are also motorways in Guadeloupe, New Caledonia and French Polynesia but I can't find pictures.

Last but not least, in French Guiana there are no motorways but roads are nonetheless impressive there. They opened the (paved) road from Régina to Saint-Georges de l'Oyapock in 2004 which was the last missing link between the Surinamese border and the Brazilian border. They are currently building a bridge over the large Oyapock River marking the border with Brazil. It will be the first land crossing between Brazil and Europe. It will then be possible to drive uninterrupted from Cayenne to Macapá, the capital of the state of Amapá in Brazil.

French-quality road going through the "Green Hell" of French Guiana:









And this is what happens after a few months if the roads are not maintained, thanks to the hellish jungle weather:









Trying to catch Brazilian illegal immigrants:









The bridge will cross the Oyapock river marking the border between France and Brazil:


----------



## x-type

lol! even at Martinique they have -20 km/h in the case of rain as in France!


----------



## Minato ku

Martinique is France, so it is better to say "Metropolitan France"

A1 motorway in northern oulter suburbs of Paris.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's one hell of an Ikea there.


----------



## Minato ku

^^ Paris has the metropolitan area with the most IKEA in the world.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is this the A1-A104 interchange?


----------



## Minato ku

Yes it is, A1 - A104 (aka Francillienne) interchange near Charles de Gaulle airport. The A1 here is impressive (European view)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

IKEA's in the Netherlands always causes quite some traffic jams on the adjacent motorways on saturdays. How's that in France?


----------



## Skylandman

Minato ku said:


> Paris Peripherique
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike that most will think inner Paris is at the right of this picture, at the left it is the inner "suburbs".



cool pic, thanks for posting it. :cheers:


----------



## xote

brisavoine said:


> French not wide spoken outside of France??? French is spoken by close to 200 million people in more than 40 francophone countries in the world. English is the only language spoken in more countries than French. Furthermore between 100 and 200 million more people can speak French as a foreign language in non-francophone countries.
> 
> The 64 million inhabitants of France have now become a minority of the French speakers worldwide, representing only a third of French speakers worldwide (not including people who learnt French as a foreign language). France is still the country with the largest number of French speakers among francophone countries, but in the future it will probably be the Democratic Republic of Congo that will have the most French speakers.
> 
> Dark blue: French native tongue; blue: official language/widely used; Light blue: language of culture; green: minority
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll try to do it as soon as I have time.


FFS, most people on this forum don't speak French, and French is not even in the Top 5 of spoken languages world wide, behind Mandarin, English, Hindi, Spanish, and Portuguese. Deal with this reality and be kind enough to provide a frickin translation!

PS: Thanks for ruining the thread with your linguistic hegemonic nonsense. :cheer:


----------



## Kitty01

I love motorways in France...


----------



## brisavoine

xote said:


> FFS, most people on this forum don't speak French, and French is not even in the Top 5 of spoken languages world wide, behind Mandarin, English, Hindi, Spanish, and Portuguese. Deal with this reality and be kind enough to provide a frickin translation!
> 
> PS: Thanks for ruining the thread with your linguistic hegemonic nonsense. :cheer:


^^I suppose your message is directed to Chriszwolle. In other threads people routinely post local infos in local languages when they don't have time to translate, but here people have decided to make a fuss about it. Go figure...


----------



## xote

brisavoine said:


> ^^I suppose your message is directed to Chriszwolle. In other threads people routinely post local infos in local languages when they don't have time to translate, but here people have decided to make a fuss about it. Go figure...


At least be courteous enough to put a brief translation of the salient features given that most people in the world don't speak French.


----------



## brisavoine

Given the tone of your message, you can forget about translation. There's Babel Fish translator if you want the salient points. Lástima que hayan personas tan mala onda como tú!


----------



## xote

brisavoine said:


> Given the tone of your message, you can forget about translation. There's Babel Fish translator if you want the salient points. Lástima que hayan personas tan mala onda como tú!


And people wonder why the French have such a reputation for arrogance in the world hno:

You know what, fine, don't provide me a translation. 

But be warned, the more Frenchmen delay recognizing that the SOLE international language in English, the more isolated they will become.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Alright, let's forget the whole language thing.


----------



## Verso

EDIT: no, I think he's not.


----------



## woutero

Deleted my own message that was here: I got irritated by the language discussion and posted a reply, but while brushing my teeth I realized my irritation wouldn't really help anyone, or the discussion... 

Back to the topic! 

So... how about those French Autoroutes. They're quite something, eh?

(And to all the people in Saskatchewan who have French as a 'language of culture': bonjour!)


----------



## wyqtor

I also usually complain about people not translating in the non-local forums, but this time I passed - I can understand some French as it's close to Romanian.  The article mainly says how great this Autoroute is. 

I just noticed - the map also shows French being a "language of culture" in Flanders... :lol: :runaway:

Anyway, I'm very interested about these Autoroutes outside metropolitan (European) France. Are there any autoroutes in French Polynesia, Guyana?


----------



## brisavoine

wyqtor said:


> I just noticed - the map also shows French being a "language of culture" in Flanders... :lol: :runaway:


If you have a complaint about the map, the map is from the English-speaking Wikipedia, and the caption "language of culture" is theirs, I simply copied and pasted.


wyqtor said:


> Anyway, I'm very interested about these Autoroutes outside metropolitan (European) France. Are there any autoroutes in French Polynesia, Guyana?


In French Guiana there's no autoroute (autoroute? I thought French was forbidden on this thread...).

In French Polynesia there's a 2+2 motorway around Papeete, but it is not officially listed as an autoroute.


----------



## Nephasto

To much offtopic discussion and too few photo's in this thread.

Let's put some photo's of my beloved autoroutes:

A10, near Tour:


----------



## Nephasto

Heading north on A7 in a typical summer day, near Orange.
It has 4 lanes at first because it's near the junction of A7 with A9... It changes back to 3 lanes:




























Thís last photo it's a bit of a mistery to me, bacause it was taken 20 minutes after the previous one I showed (close to Montelimar I think) and we can see that the A7 has 4 lanes againg (going back to 3 some meters ahead, as you can see by the signage). Why is there a segment of the A7 with 4 lanes near Montelimar? :dunno:


----------



## CborG

Maybe a climbing lane?


----------



## Nephasto

Could be, but climbing lanes are very rare on 2x3 motorways. Usually one only sees climbing lanes in 2x2 motorways, as a 3rd lane.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ They should widen the motorway to 2x20 lanes to handle the summer peaks, but i think it's possible to have a 4th lane as a climbing lane. Remember this is the busiest tolled motorway in France outside summer times. It is the key link between most of Spain and most of Europe.


----------



## Nephasto

Chriszwolle said:


> ^^ They should widen the motorway to 2x20 lanes to handle the summer peaks, but i think it's possible to have a 4th lane as a climbing lane.


Yes, it's possible, although adding a 4th lane as a climbing lane it's rare. But maybe that's the case.
I've seen a climbing lane (as a 4th lane) on a 2x3 motorway this summer. It was on the north part of the London M25.


----------



## mapman:cz

Nephasto said:


> Yes, it's possible, although adding a 4th lane as a climbing lane it's rare. But maybe that's the case.
> I've seen a climbing lane (as a 4th lane) on a 2x3 motorway this summer. It was on the north part of the London M25.


Here in Czech rep. we have also a climbing lane on 3+3 motorway stretch...

Here is the proof, it is the old type one, on the right side, with double dashed/solid line...


----------



## Nephasto

^^Thanks! kay:

I just don't remember seeing climbing lanes on 2x3 motorways in France, but I'm probably wrong.


----------



## Substructure

The A79 would extend from Lyon to Narbonne, effectively giving some rest to the A7.
However the highway would be built on ecologically sensitive areas, and would be pretty expensive.
So far the French gov seems to be more interested in widening the A7 to 2x5 or 2x(3+2), with a 2 lanes trunk for trucks and a 3 lanes trunk for cars.
The RN7 will also be updated to 2x2 on most of its length.
For those who can read French, please have a look at http://www.rhone-alpes.cci.fr/competences/amenager/livre/PDF/80.pdf. It has many interesting charts and map as well.


----------



## Nephasto

Widening to 2x(3+2) would be great! Much better than 2x5. And having the trucks separated would be great. The problem is that it would also be more expensive than a widening to 2x5.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Truck traffic is forbidden at black saturdays, so there are 5 southbound lanes available to holiday traffic, it's a big improvement, but i don't think it's enough when millions move to the south the same day. Such peaks are hard to handle. Maybe they can make some kind of reversible lane on the northbound direction, so on peak holidays, there are 8 lanes southbound and 2 north or something.


----------



## juanico

Verso said:


> I've already driven on French motorways a few times in my life by car, but only a few days ago I realized how slowly the French drive on (French) motorways. I only drove 130-140 km/h (speed limit 130 km/h) and NO ONE overtook me for 200 km!


- 12-point driving licence
- multpilication of speeding radars
- increasing of gas prices

are some factors that come on top on my head that could explain why the average speed has dropped so much over the last years in France particularly on the motorways...

Driving a lot myself I've noticed that too, but it has not always been like this.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Traffic predictions for July 26th:









A7 prediction that day:


----------



## Minato ku

^^ Not so bad. 
Why my grand parents live in southern France and of course, and of course this city is on the A7 motorway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Still crawling traffic at 2300 hrs near Valence:









predictions for tomorrow, July 12th. Traffic jams starting after 4 am.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Crazy pic of the A6 near Chalon.









A huge accident happened with a bus, and all northbound traffic had to turn around and exit the motorway at a service entrance.


----------



## Minato ku

I love the debut of vacation, in Paris the freeways are... crowded, the streets are...crowded, the subway is... crowded. :lol:

Denfert Rochereaux - Chatillon Montrouge (3.5 km) : one hour in bus... I was really happy especially in the crowded bus (without air conditioning a hot day).
And even better the frequencies are less high than due at vacancy. 

After this journey, I happy to see the vacancy traffic jam. :lol: :crazy:


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Verso said:


> ^ Ok, but in very few countries (at least European) you'll encounter being the fastest one with 130-140 km/h for 200 km. Not even in Switzerland.


yep noticed more on more on your own roads...:lol: but wait for the "fantastic" Tutor and the whole hiway will fall asleep.


Funny enough the first part of the network was A4 heading into Milan, where attaining 130 is just daydreamin'


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Does anybody know what the status is on the A89 near Terrasson (that's not far from Brive-la-Gaillarde). Google Earth says it still has an 18km gap, however, other sources seem to say it's already completed.


----------



## Gareth

Chriszwolle said:


> Crazy pic of the A6 near Chalon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A huge accident happened with a bus, and all northbound traffic had to turn around and exit the motorway at a service entrance.


Hundreds of Frenchmen & women being forced to drive on the left! Must be almost as traumatic for them as speaking English! :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*PDF of traffic counts (8mb)*


----------



## ABRob

Chriszwolle said:


> *PDF of traffic counts (8mb)*


Here are more maps:
http://www.setra.equipement.gouv.fr/Les-cartes.html

----------------

I read in a ViaMichelin Map of France that they revise the numbering system of the N- and D-roads.
Has anyone information about this?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Yes, it's a total mess now. I don't know specifically, but they transfer the RN roads to the Departement authorities, so they get a D number. Like N5 will be D1005. hno:


----------



## brisavoine

Chriszwolle said:


> Does anybody know what the status is on the A89 near Terrasson (that's not far from Brive-la-Gaillarde). Google Earth says it still has an 18km gap, however, other sources seem to say it's already completed.


It's already completed. It was opened to traffic on January 16, 2008 at 10am.


----------



## brisavoine

They have just started construction on the last stretch of the A89 between Clermont-Ferrand and Lyon by the way. So when you go from Bordeaux to Lyon, or vice versa, you won't have to make the lengthy detour through Saint-Etienne anymore. This promises to be a beautiful stretch of motorway, going through the very hilly area west of Lyon, with numerous bridges and tunnels.


----------



## brisavoine

SCROLL >>>


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I see you end up in the middle of Lyon. Is that useful for through traffic heading for Genève/Torino?


----------



## ABRob

Chriszwolle said:


> ^^ Yes, it's a total mess now. I don't know specifically, but they transfer the RN roads to the Departement authorities, so they get a D number. Like N5 will be D1005. hno:


So, no more RN??

---------------------------------



brisavoine said:


> SCROLL >>>











 Source: http://autorout.free.fr/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Those maps are really good looking for a selfmade map. I believe they made it for all missing links/projected Autoroutes.


----------



## brisavoine

^^The maps I posted are not self-made. They are from Michelin. The map ABRob posted is self-made, and it is inaccurate, because the Conseil d'Etat rejected the section from La Tour-de-Salvigny to Limonest where the motorway was supposed to end, because it is too close to the center of Lyon and would add extra burden on the already congested A6 in central Lyon.

So at the moment this motorway ends up nowhere in La Tour-de-Salvigny thanks to bad planning from the French government. They will have to redraw the end of the motorway, but it will take time and for several years this motorway will end abruptly in La Tour-de-Salvigny. :bash:

The only viable solution would be to build the western part of the Lyon beltway (the COL, contournement ouest de Lyon), but so far the COL is stuck in the sand due to cost, protests from wealthy inhabitants of western hills of Lyon, and so on. The A89 should ideally end at the COL. Any other solution is impractical given how congested are motorways in Lyon. Another idea would be to link the A89 with the A46 at Genay, but it's hard to see how they can do that now that they approved a 'southern' route for the A89 ending in La Tour-de-Salvigny.

Last but not least, a few days ago the new motorway between Lyon and Saint-Etienne, the A45, was approved. It will run parallel to the current A47, probably the worst motorway in France at the moment, separated from the A47 by 2 km at the max and 50 meters at the minimum. Many people were opposed to bulding a parallel motorway, but it has been approved. It will connect on the A450 in central Lyon, which is already pretty congested, that's why many people think the project is crazy.

IMO, the situation in Lyon won't improve as long as they don't build the COL.


ABRob said:


> So, no more RN??


There will still be some RN, but less than today.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What about the A47? Will it be demolished once the A45 is completed? I saw pics, and the A47 is heavily substandard.


----------



## brisavoine

^^It's unclear yet. Some people say it would be downgraded to a departmental road, with traffic lights added, and maximum speed of 70 km/h, so that people are forced to take the new toll motorway (the A45 will cost 9 euros from Lyon to Saint-Etienne, which is a record for such a distance).


----------



## brisavoine

Don't you like French roads?


----------



## Substructure

Chrizwolle, there is already a thread about the A45 on the French forum, it may interest you (despite the poor translation):
http://translate.google.com/transla...thread.php?t=595201&hl=fr&ie=UTF8&sl=fr&tl=en

I will sum up my opinion in a couple sentences: the A47 could have been upgraded to French/European standards at a fraction of the cost of the A45 (250 millions € vs 1.7 billion €).. With the money saved, we could also have invested in the express train line between the two cities. Whatever, it will be built anyway, so I'm moving on...

edit: Oh by the way Chrizwolle, I read that Paris's inner ringbelt sustains the heaviest traffic of Europe (2x5 sections at 1.2 million vehicles/day) and thus has a very special asphalt coating (and special painting). Any idea of what it can be?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Those 1.2 million vehicles are obvious the total ringroad usage, and not at one point, since 2x5 can carry 250.000 - 300.000 only with day long traffic jams. 

Do you have a picture of the pavement?

I also think it's better to upgrade the current A47, because an A45 ending in Lyon makes less sense than the A47 ending at the interchange near Givors.


----------



## Minato ku

As I know in the 2x3 way of the Peripherique (Porte de Vanves) carry 220,000 cars, it is one of least busy part of the Peripherique with 2x2 section Porte d'Orleans, Porte d'Italie
Near Porte des Lilas it is over 270,000 cars per day.


----------



## Substructure

I can't believe your reactivity Chris!

You can google "Paris périphérique" to find some pictures. Here are some candidates:

http://www.infolettre.fr/gabarit/images/Real/23/periph546.JPG
(the backward car seems to be a joke)

http://members.cox.net/mkpl/europe/fr-paris-periph.jpg

http://cache.20minutes.fr/img/photos/afp/2008-06/2008-06-19/article_photo_1213866949651-1-0.jpg


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It looks like normal asphalt to me. I don't think they used PAC (Porous Asphalt Concrete), because it has a much shorter durability, and you don't want to repave the busy BP every few years...


----------



## Minato ku

I don't know wich type of asphalt , they use for the Peripherique, but for the repavement or any other work, they close some part of the peripherique during the night.


----------



## Substructure

Chris, the repavement occurs every Tuesday and Wednesday night between 9.30pm and 6am, so that everything is repaved every 6 weeks, lane by lane, section by section.


----------



## brisavoine

About traffic per day, the highest traffic density in France for which we have a credible source is the A4 motorway in the eastern inner suburbs of Paris, at the level of Saint-Maurice, which had 257,000 vehicles a day in 2002 (source). So far no higher traffic density has been found in Europe with a credible source (there was a thread about this some times ago). The only credible figures I have are:
- M25 motorway around Greater London: 196,000 vehicles a day between junctions 13 and 14 in 2003 (source)
- A 100 motorway in Berlin: 191,400 vehicles a day between Dreieck Funkturm	and Kurfürstendamm in 2005 (source)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ My Spanish it not the best, but the M-30 in Madrid has 300.721 vehicles a day. 

source


----------



## brisavoine

^^I'm not sure that this is comparable with the figures I gave. Your figure for the M-30 is the traffic per day in June 2008, a month that is entirely worked, whereas the figures I gave are for an entire year, incl. the long weeks of vacation in August, Xmas-New Year, Easter, and so on, when people desert Paris and other big cities.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Those figures are not representative in traffic planning. The highest normal work/weekdays are the best in transportation forecasting, in other words, take all usual commuting traffic into account.

I'm working at a traffic engineering bureau, and we don't count roads this time of the year, because traffic is not representative for a whole year. (unless they specifically want to include holiday traffic patterns).


----------



## Minato ku

brisavoine said:


> About traffic per day, the highest traffic density in France for which we have a credible source is the A4 motorway in the eastern inner suburbs of Paris, at the level of Saint-Maurice, which had 257,000 vehicles a day in 2002 (source


My source was the information pannels about the Peripherique coverage, that's why I have only Porte de Vanves and Porte des Lilas figures.
As I know (I don't remember where I read or heard this) The A3 motorway near Porte de Bagnolet had about 180,000 vehicules per day.


----------



## brisavoine

Chriszwolle said:


> ^^ Those figures are not representative in traffic planning.


We do with whatever sources we can find. For France, Germany and UK, the sources we have calculate traffic over the whole year, so that's what we have.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Yeah I know. Most countries (US included) use Annual Average Daily Traffic. However, workday traffic is busier than that, since the ANNUAL AVERAGE also includes weekends, which usually generate less traffic, except on roads to tourist destinations, like the French A7, Spanish A-3, Hungarian M-7 etc.


----------



## brisavoine

Chriszwolle said:


> Most countries (US included) use Annual Average Daily Traffic.


Well, in the US this is not a problem, since Americans don't take vacations. 

In France however... You probably missed this bit, that I posted last week in another thread. It's pretty interesting in terms of consequences for seasonal traffic.


brisavoine said:


> I've found some interesting stats today while reading an INSEE publication. The official population of Metropolitan France (the European part of France) is 61.9 million (Jan. 2008). However, due to foreign visitors in France (foreign tourists and businesmen), who are at all time of the year more numerous than the number of French people travelling abroad, the actual population present in Metropolitan France is at all time of the year superior to the official figure. It reaches its maximum in the second half of July when the population present in Metropolitan France is 2.8 million superior to the official population.
> 
> In other words, next week the population present in Metropolitan France should reach 64.9 million (61.9 million + 2.8 million + 0.2 million pop. growth since Jan.). Outside of summertime, there are on average 400,000 more people in Metropolitan France than the official population.
> 
> In Paris, things are a bit different. The population is often below the official figure, because tourists do not always compensate the huge departures of Parisians on week-ends and holidays. The official population of central Paris is 2.15 million, but *the actual population present reaches its minimum in mid-August when there are only 1.7 million people present in central Paris* (about half of the Parisians are gone, and the rest is made up of tourists). The maximum is reached in December when there are 2.3 million people present in central Paris (almost all Parisians are present, and then there are tourists who swell the population).
> 
> In the Hauts-de-Seine department, in the inner western suburbs of Paris, where La Défense is located, the population swings are even more dramatic. The official population of Hauts-de-Seine is 1.5 million. That's the number of long-term residents in the Hauts-de-Seine. However, *in mid-August the population actually present in Hauts-de-Seine drops to only 0.75 million.*


PS: The figures above DO NOT include people crossing France on their way to/from Spain, Italy, and other countries. Only the people who stay overnight in France are counted.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How does the credit-card tolling system work in France? It's the first time I want to use my creditcard, how does it work? You put the ticket into a machine, and then?


----------



## brisavoine

^^Strange question you're asking. You simply insert your credit card in the machine, they ask you if you want a receipt (reçu), and that's it. It takes 5 seconds, they don't control the credit card (no time), and they don't ask for a PIN number or signature.


----------



## Morsue

The same system is used in Spain, at least on the mediterranean coast. Really easy, but not very secure. But even if you go through the manual booths they don't ask for your pin-code or id. That would take an enormous amount of time for every transaction.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ABRob said:


> I read in a ViaMichelin Map of France that they revise the numbering system of the N- and D-roads.
> Has anyone information about this?


I noticed there are even 4-digit motorway-grade roads, like the D2009 between Riom and Clermont-Ferrand.


----------



## brisavoine

Some recent pics of the 'Route des Tamarins' motorway under construction on the island of Réunion. This is the most spectacular motorway under construction in the EU at the moment.

Viaduct over the Fleurimont canyon near Saint-Paul, March 2008:









Bridge over the Trois-Bassins canyon, April 2008:









Cut-and-cover tunnel near Saint-Paul, February 2008:









Viaduct over the Fleurimont canyon near Saint-Paul, February 2008:









Visit at the cut-and-cover tunnel near Saint-Paul, February 2008:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> This is the most spectacular motorway under construction in the EU at the moment.


Official, or your opinion? 

There are tons of spectacular motorways under construction in say, Spain, Romania or Croatia.


----------



## brisavoine

^^Motorways going over 170 meters-deep canyons? I don't think.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Currently *4 hours* delay at the Mt Blanc tunnel.


----------



## Ali_B

Chriszwolle said:


> Currently *4 hours* delay at the Mt Blanc tunnel.


currently (02h34 // 2:34am!!!) 10km of congestion on A10 near Niort and 12km on A63 near Spanish border direction south, 9km on A10 x A71 junction in Orléans; 1km near toll-plaza of Lyon on A7 direction north. A10 and A6 and A7and A9 and A63 are very very busy


----------



## vlker

Oh my god. I just read that in french highways is about 400 km of traffic jams:wtf:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ We have that on a rainy day in the Netherlands during rushhour


----------



## juanico

708 km at 13h00.


----------



## christos-greece

brisavoine said:


> Don't you like French roads?


:yes: I do! :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Oops, E71 instead of the more correct E17 in Lille 

http://lh5.ggpht.com/blaak90/SJn2svOdZ3I/AAAAAAAAGz4/Rn035C1sL0w/Heenreis 177.jpg?imgmax=800









Ancient signage:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/blaak90/SJn3E4fbUhI/AAAAAAAAG3k/vZsPnqjkquM/Heenreis 206.jpg?imgmax=800


----------



## brisavoine

Chriszwolle said:


> Oops, E71 instead of the more correct E17 in Lille
> 
> http://lh5.ggpht.com/blaak90/SJn2svOdZ3I/AAAAAAAAGz4/Rn035C1sL0w/Heenreis 177.jpg?imgmax=800


Doesn't matter. French people only care about the 'A something' signage, they don't care about the 'E something' signage, unlike in Belgium.


Chriszwolle said:


> Ancient signage:
> http://lh4.ggpht.com/blaak90/SJn3E4fbUhI/AAAAAAAAG3k/vZsPnqjkquM/Heenreis 206.jpg?imgmax=800


That's just to mentally prepare French motorists for their entry in dirt-poor Wallonia.


----------



## christos-greece

No one to "clean" those signs ^^ ?


----------



## brisavoine

Another viaduct on the 'Route des Tamarins' motorway in Réunion:


----------



## christos-greece

Nice bridge ^^


----------



## Cyril

Normandy Bridge on A29 motorway as of mid-August 2008:


















and a smaller bridge close to Normandy Bridge allowing to pass over some canal parallelling river La Seine:


----------



## cees

why is that normandy bridge so redicilous, high?, i heard it was a class 2 climb on the tour?


----------



## Morsue

I think the TdF has gone over the bridge twice. Once on a normal stage where it was classified a 4th category climb (it's very short, but steep), and once in a team time trial. The bridge is so steep beceause it's located at the mouth of the Seine river and larger ships need to be able to pass whilst road traffic not be cut off.


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## G5man

Too expensive to viaduct to lessen the degree?


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## christos-greece

Normandy bridge is really awesome :cheers:


----------



## juanico

Both bridges shown by Cyril look great!


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## christos-greece

Indeed


----------



## GregfromAustria

*What the ****.....*

is that?
I´ve never seen something like that....
wow very impressive france!

http://www.cofiroute.fr/cofiroute.nsf/web/webcam-a10-arnoult.htm



..sorry but i had to insert the link ...the pic didn´t work.


----------



## Verso

Incredible. French highways are here though..


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> Incredible. French highways are here though..


I merged it


----------



## RipleyLV

What the???


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> I merged it


You should give new title to the thread: "French highways - what the ****?"


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's the last day of holiday-returners I guess. New workyear begins monday. It might be busy in Italy and Spain too. In Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium etc, we returned from our holidays weeks ago.


----------



## GregfromAustria

thanks for merging chris

that toll station is just incredible ..how much lanes does it have?


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## ChrisZwolle

It's huge:


----------



## brisavoine

GregfromAustria said:


> that toll station is just incredible ..how much lanes does it have?


^^That's just the toll station at the entrance of a megacity, Paris in this case, southern entrance to Paris. That's what happens when millions of Parisians return from holidays. Well, thanks God not all the 12 million Greater Parisians leave at the same time, otherwise just imagine the nightmare it would be.


----------



## GregfromAustria

omg do all those lanes merge in just 2 lanes?

http://lh3.ggpht.com/Michoubidou78/...8Y/129 Aubrac 2008_06 IMG_0279.JPG?imgmax=512


no wonder that there´s such a jam :nuts:


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## brisavoine

^^No, they merge in 4 lanes. It's a 8-lane motorway after this toll station.


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## GregfromAustria

oh i looks so narrow from this distance


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## ChrisZwolle

It seems to me that section of the A10 from the Péage at St. Arnoult to the A6 near Paris is build for summer traffic, I don't think the average weekday traffic requires 8 lanes. (You're talking about the 150.000 - 200.000 range then).


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## brisavoine

That's the motorway after the toll station, just next to the TGV line.


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## GregfromAustria

more lanes - less traffic jams

in austria we get a new 8 lane stretch in the south of vienna  goodbye daily jams


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## brisavoine

It's not the largest motorway in Greater Paris though. The largest undivided motorway is the A4 just as it leaves central Paris.




























Of course the A6 that leaves central Paris towards the southern suburbs is even larger, but it is divided. Apparently the technocrats ruling this country thought French drivers were too dumb to handle a 12-lane motorway, so they divided it into smaller bits. That's 'autoroute for dummies' for you. Lol.




























Still pretty impressive at night, even divided as it is.










Of course railway lines entering Paris are impressive too.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Divided motorways are better when there are more than 2x5 lanes. Capacity hardly increases if you keep adding lanes above 10. In the US, most wide freeways also have collector lanes if there are over 5 lanes per direction. 

St. Arnoult at 18:12 hr:


----------



## GregfromAustria

nice pics 
do you have some pics of the "boulevard de peripherique" too?


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## christos-greece

A4 Autoroute its huge indeed


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> Divided motorways are better when there are more than 2x5 lanes. Capacity hardly increases if you keep adding lanes above 10. In the US, most wide freeways also have collector lanes if there are over 5 lanes per direction.


The way the A6 is organized is nightmarish, and I'm not sure it's more efficient that if it was undivided. The worst thing is if you drive southbound on the A6, when you reach the A86, it is not possible to take the A86 westbound, there is no lane going from A6 southbound to A86 westbound (i.e. from central Paris to Versailles). How dumb is that?!! :nuts:

And from an aesthetical point of way, I find these unkept patches of land separating the various lanes absolutely ugly. It's quite inferior to the neat-looking undivided US freeways.


----------



## GregfromAustria

take a look at the webcam now:
http://www.cofiroute.fr/icons/cofiroute/A1002401.jpg

when i saw the image one hou before i thought the cars will jam trough the night


----------



## Verso

I forgot that website with LOADS of pics of French motorways. I'm interested in A4 through Reims. I remember driving under a building, or is that somewhere else on the A4? Anyone remembers that site?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Ici


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> Ici


Merci!  franceautoroutes.fr, now that's a misterious name. :lol: Unfortunately there's nothing of A4 in Reims, does anyone have these photos?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I have pics from Reims to Paris, but not inside Reims.


----------



## juanico

Verso said:


> I'm interested in A4 through Reims. I remember driving under a building, or is that somewhere else on the A4?


I don't remember any stretch of the A4 where you could have driven under a building.


----------



## Verso

Well, we were driving to Paris and I wasn't dreaming.


----------



## brisavoine

^^Verso, look at my hand. Can you tell me how many fingers I have?


----------



## Verso

I see 5. :angel:


----------



## Mateusz

Are there plans for extending Paris Outer Ring, N104 (A104?) in future ?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I found the N104 a sucky road. I drove it for the first time 2 weeks ago, and it has only 2x2 lanes and you have to turn off all the time in order to continue on the N104 (TOTSO's).


----------



## Mateusz

Myabe it will be upgraded somewhen... It's a shame really such big city don't have a proper outer ring road. London, Berlin, Rome, Moscow have them


----------



## juanico

The _Francilienne_ should be extended on 22 kms in the North West, between Mery-sur-Oise and Orgeval (connection with A13):










Works are due to start in 2011 and end (at best) in 2015.

Then it probably won't be extended any further. White arrows on the map show what will miss to make a complete loop.


----------



## Mateusz

I would stick with 35 km option, it might be more expensive but it will give more space for traffic


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah Paris is already a city with a lot of loose-ends freeways. If they will be integrated and connected properly, it can reduce some of the traffic jams.


----------



## juanico

The 35 km option will NEVER get built. The soutwestern portion of Paris it would have to go through is made of protected valleys.

_Francilienne_ will remain an uncomplete loop forever.


----------



## brisavoine

Mateusz said:


> Are there plans for extending Paris Outer Ring, N104 (A104?) in future ?


It depends what you mean by "extending". If you mean completing the loop, then yes they intend to do that. In 2006 the central State approved the extension of the motorway from Méry-sur-Oise to Orgeval (yellow section on Juanico's map above). Problem is, the regional council is opposed to it, and it is not known wheter the central State will impose its will or give in. The regional council has unfortunately been infiltrated by the Greens since 1998, and they control several key positions there. It's really not very democratic: only a minority of people voted for the Greens, but because they allied with the Socialists, and the Socialists won in 1998, then the Greens are now in power along with the Socialists, and they were given key positions (the vice president of the regional council is Green... she went to the Olympic torch relay in Paris last April with a fire extinguisher to extinguish the Olympic flame... just imagine the vice mayor of Greater London doing the same... well that's the kind of Neanderthal Greens who are ruling Greater Paris at the moment hno.

So all motorway projects have been either frozen or considerably delayed since 1998, and the region is opposed to any new project. Yet the central State wants to extend the Francilienne (A 104) motorway from Méry-sur-Oise to Orgeval because the traffic situation in western Paris has become chaotic (trucks drive on streets and avenues in the western suburbs, because there is no motorway, and local inhabitants are fed up with all these trucks driving in their neighborhoods). So the motorway might end up being built, the central State saying it will open in 2015, but many people doubt it will open in time.

There were several routes proposed for the extension of the motorway. They've discussed them for years (France has gone from being the European country where public infrastructure decisions were taken the fastest in the 1960s-1970s, to being the slowest now, due to all these stupid "concertations", "discussions", "great debates" and whatnot with local citizens, local nimby associations, Green integrists, etc., all made mandatory by stupid laws passed in the 1980s). Eventually, after years of useless discussions (the general public and the nimby associations could never agree on a route), the central State finally chose the green route. So if this motorway ends up being built, it will be the green route.










For the section from Orgeval to Saint-Jean-de-Beauregard (35 km white section on Juanico's map above), which is the last remaining section to complete the Francilienne (A104) loop, nothing is planned so far. It was already so difficult to reach a decision for the Méry-sur-Oise - Orgeval section, that the central State has just decided that for the moment, between Orgeval and Saint-Jean-de-Beauregard, motorists would just use (fasten your seatbelt, open viamichelin.com, and try to follow) the A13 >> A12 >> N 12 >> A86 >> N118, and that whole section of various motorways would be called the "A104". Of course it will make traffic on these already jammed motorways completely chaotic, but that's the short-termism of public infrastructure in Greater Paris that we've been experiencing since the 1980s unfortunately. And with the Greens in power, it's even worse.


ChrisZwolle said:


> I found the N104 a sucky road. I drove it for the first time 2 weeks ago, and it has only 2x2 lanes and you have to turn off all the time in order to continue on the N104 (TOTSO's).


That's because the Francilienne (A104) was started after the 1970s. With the election of Giscard d'Estaing in 1974, they froze all the big motorway projects in Greater Paris, and after that all new motorways have been very slow and very complicated to come. That's why the Périphérique is a perfect loop, whereas the A86 and the Francilienne are completely botched, with bits here and there, often using other motorways and pretending to be the Francilienne. In the end it increases pollution, because a traffic that jams is a traffic that pollutes more, but I guess it pays more in electoral terms to be "anti car" these days.

Anyway, concerning the 2x2 lanes, they are enlarging the Francilienne in the east of Paris. They are bringing it to 2x3 lanes between the A4 and the RN 4, and between exit 28 and exit 32, but it's extremely slow. They say it will take 10 years to enlarge the 7.5 km of Francilienne between the A4 and the RN 4. I think they can enter the Guinness Book of Records for slowest motorway enlargement. :bash:

And best of all, in July last year, the Green deputy mayor of Emerainville managed to have the local courts stop all work on the enlargement due to an obscure legal point (apparently the conduits for rain water along the enlarged motorway were not perfectly respecting the law). As a result, construction is delayed one and a half year, and scores of people are put out of work. Brillitant! And the current 2x2-lane Francilienne motorway is choked with traffic (100,000 vehicles a day), creating lots of pollution for Emerainville. Brilliant again! The Greens, they should be banned by law...

The Green deputy mayor of Emerainville proudly posing next to the Francilienne whose enlargement he managed to stop in courts:









Anyway, eventually it will be 2x3 lanes, and someday they may also remove the sections that are using other motorways (like around Evry where the Francilienne is in fact the A6), there are talks about it, so if you live long enough you may some day see the Francilienne as a full loop, uninterrupted, fully 2x3 lanes, and not using other motorways. I hope you're still young. :lol:

Ok, let's finish on a positive note. Further south near Evry, there is no Green deputy mayor to block things, and the enlargement (2x3 lanes) was completed last month. You may have seen work going on when you drove there, no?

Before August 2008, and after August 2008 on the Francilienne near Evry:









And in the west, last April the Conseil d'Etat (the supreme administrative court in France) rejected an appeal by local nimby associations to cancel the extension of the Francilienne between Méry-sur-Oise and Orgeval. So it might end up being built after all.


----------



## juanico

To add to Brisavoine's summary, its kinda worrying to see that the ecolo-extremist deputy mayor of a 7,000 inh. municipality can achieve to have the current works stopped and postponed for incongruous motives.


----------



## christos-greece

Autoroute(s) in Paris suburbs are most of the time underground, right?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No, only a few tunnels are present. The A86 along the western side of Paris is being build in a tunnel though.


----------



## christos-greece

^^ O.K.


----------



## rpc08

Some pics taken last August:

*A10*

*Tours - Bordeaux*



















Tours








































































Next to Niort










*A630* *(Bordeaux)*




















*A63*

*Bordeaux-Bayonne*


----------



## brisavoine

7,602 kilometers to Paris. Now that's a milestone!

It's on the D11 road in French Guiana.


----------



## Plumber73

rpc08 said:


> Some pics taken last August:
> 
> *A10*
> 
> *Tours - Bordeaux*
> 
> 
> 
> Tours


Was in France during the summer and we had to drive from the Loire region through Tours on the way to our bed and breakfast near Nantes. The highways are fantastic, but the one thing we had difficulty with was constantly trying to read and make sense of the signs. We did ok for the most part, and got better later in the trip. Had a nice tour de Tours , not intending to. Reminded me of a miniature Paris.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

massive pile-up on the A4 Autoroute. 1 killed, 39 injured.


----------



## Timon91

We've had a few of these fog accidents in NL too. It can get really bad and some drivers only understand that they have to adjust their speed to the weather condintions after such a heavy accident has occured hno:


----------



## H123Laci

ChrisZwolle said:


> massive pile-up on the A4 Autoroute. 1 killed, 39 injured.



and who takes the responsibility?

only the first driver who caused the first crash or everybody except the first car in the row?


----------



## Cyril

A very narrow expressway in the Greater Paris. I took it yesterday: N118 with la Défense in the background.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wonderful pic.


----------



## Timon91

Paris is gorgeous. Even the modern parts (La Defense) which would be considered ugly and uninteresting in any other city, are beautiful. 
@H123Laci: I don't think that only one is guilty, everyone else that was driving too fast considering the circumstances and thus was too late with breaking, can be considered guilty IMO :dunno:


----------



## PLH

Timon91 said:


> @H123Laci: I don't think that only one is guilty, everyone else that was driving too fast considering the circumstances and thus was too late with breaking, can be considered guilty IMO :dunno:


The person "behind" is always guilty.


----------



## Timon91

^^So would only the last one be punished? Or just everyone except the first car? In the Netherlands the person "behind" is always guilty as well.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, I once had an accident on the A10 near Saintes (just north of Bordeaux) and I was guilty because I was the guy from behind. I couldn't reasonably avoid the accident though.


----------



## PLH

*@ Timon* Well, it's very complicated, for instance if a car 'in the middle' was pushed by a car behind and thus bumped into a car in front, then the driver is not guilty.

But when a car in front brakes without any purpouse or because a squirrel is crossing the road, he is the one to be blamed for the pile-up.


----------



## Timon91

^^Thanks for your answer. You know, I don't know very much about this, since I don't have my drivers license. Of course I've heard stuff like you said on tv programmes, and it's indeed much more complicated.


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> Many European cities have skyscrapers. Think of Moscow, Rotterdam, London, Warsaw etc.


of course i know that, but i meant on clusters. those cities have dispersed skyscrapers


----------



## brisavoine

EDIT


----------



## brisavoine

Timon91 said:


> Some cities (like Paris) don't have the skyscrapers in the centre of the city, but in a separate part of the city. That's also why it doesn't have the skyscraper reputation.


Montparnasse Tower, 210 meters high, is right in the center of Paris. It can't be more central than that, unless you build a tower on the Notre Dame square.



















The Front de Seine towers, one of the largest and tallest residential complex in Europe, are located just next to the Eiffel Tower in Central Paris.



















The Jussieu Tower is located within walking distance of Notre Dame and the Panthéon, in the Medieval heart of the city.



















The Chinatown towers are also in Central Paris (here in the background, with the Paris City Hall and Pompidou Centre in the middleground).










No, the truth is, tourists come to Paris with expectations of Amélie and Moulin Rouge, a gone-by cliché Paris unchanged since 1900, and they are completely blind to the real Paris they have in front of their eyes. I have met countless numbers of foreigners who visited Paris and didn't remember having seen the towers that were glaringly standing in front of them. The human mind works in a strange way, there are things that we are completely blind to even if they are just in front of us, probably because they were not part of our expectations.


----------



## brisavoine

Expressway in Guadeloupe, in the suburbs of Pointe-à-Pitre.


----------



## christos-greece

Timon91 said:


> Some cities (like Paris) don't have the skyscrapers in the centre of the city, but in a separate part of the city. That's also why it doesn't have the skyscraper reputation.


I totally disagree


----------



## ChrisZwolle

christos-greece said:


> I totally disagree


Care to venture why?
Your post is not very useful otherwise.. hno:


----------



## Timon91

Arguments please 
I think it is because this area is relatively new, so it yet has to build up it's reputation. Furthermore, Paris is especially known as a historic city, because it is one. In the outskirts like La Defense, however, skyscrapers rise and give the city a modern face


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> Care to venture why?


Venture? I don't understand this question.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/venture


----------



## Verso

Care to risk why?


----------



## christos-greece

ChrisZwolle said:


> Care to venture why?
> Your post is not very useful otherwise.. hno:


I was disagree with the second part of your statement.
(That's also why it doesn't have the skyscraper reputation)
Paris in the last 10 years has the skyscraper reputation, LA DEFENSE for Examble.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The new A41 just south of Geneve is almost ready:


----------



## msz2

^^Nice.


----------



## Verso

No more driving by this beautiful bridge.

Are you sure it will be A41? It doesn't make sense.


----------



## Timon91

Nice black asphalt 

Does every French autoroute have an interrupted marking line, dividing the right lane and the shoulder?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes.


----------



## Verso

So the motorway northeast of Annecy will now be A410 instead of A41 previously.


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> The new A41 just south of Geneve is almost ready:


Looks like old picture. Probably it is already opened?


----------



## christos-greece

ChrisZwolle said:


> The new A41 just south of Geneve is almost ready:


Awesome pic



Verso said:


> No more driving by this beautiful bridge.


Beautiful bridge indeed








http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Pontdelacaille1.jpg

I think a route of Tour de France pass from this brigde -i dont rebember the year-


----------



## Morsue

Verso said:


> So the motorway northeast of Annecy will now be A410 instead of A41 previously.


Correct. Also, the A401 will become part of the A41.

http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Autoroute_française_A41


----------



## Verso

^^ Makes sense.



christos-greece said:


> I think a route of Tour de France pass from this brigde


I think so too.


----------



## pijanec

brisavoine said:


> Expressway in Guadeloupe, in the suburbs of Pointe-à-Pitre.


Pointe-à-Pitre needs another bypass as congestions on this expressway are unbearable.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The A75 and A89 are currently impassable for trucks due to heavy snowfall. Some sections have over 80 centimeters of snow on the roadway.

Webcam Millau:


----------



## brisavoine

^^The A75 reopened to traffic at 7pm according to the AFP. I haven't read that the A89 was closed.


----------



## christos-greece

80 centimeters of snow is impassable for trucks only, but almost for all cars...


----------



## Timon91

Luckily it's just freezing over here, but I wouldn't mind a white X-mas


----------



## Morsue

christos-greece said:


> 80 centimeters of snow is impassable for trucks only, but almost for all cars...


Yeah, but they can plow that. The problem is if snow keeps falling without stop, then the road gets jammed quite quickly. And I don't know how widespread the use of winter tyres are in the Massif Central.


----------



## jpeter

Can somebody post me a picture from Speed Limits in France? Thanks


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A new version of my A/N104 Paris video, since the other one had some..uhm... inappropriate content (as in music rights).


----------



## LtBk

How fast were you driving?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The speed limit (which was 110 km/h)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A41 near Genève opened!


----------



## Morsue

An extremely welcome shortcut for the people around there I would think. The opening of the new stretch of the A41 also means some changes in the road numbering as the old eastern branch becomes A410 and the A401 is absorbed into the A41 which now goes all the way to the Swiss frontier at Bardonnex.


----------



## LT1550

Péage (Paris-Roissy) on Autoroute 1 (Paris-Lille), taken by me a few days ago.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Nice, I also always use my creditcard to pay the tolls in France. I mostly like to avoid them though.


----------



## LT1550

This is actually just the entrance of the toll road, so I am taking a ticket and don't swipe my credit card


----------



## christos-greece

ChrisZwolle said:


> A41 near Genève opened!


The terrain and the Autoroute looks very nice


----------



## ChrisZwolle

French Guyana:









Nice Voie Expresse near Toulouse:


----------



## rpc08

^^That is a new section of N 126 Toulouse-Castres.


----------



## msz2

Timon91 said:


> Luckily it's just freezing over here, but I wouldn't mind a white X-mas


Sorry, but what does X-mas mean?


----------



## Chris_533976

Good motorways, too many Peages!!!


----------



## Verso

Ljubljana - Millau: 1,230 km, not exactly a piece of cake either, but I'll make sure to find some other interesting things too see around. :cheers:


----------



## Majestic

What a spectacular drive! A obligatory route-to-drive-before-you-die for a roadgeek.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> Ljubljana - Millau: 1,230 km, not exactly a piece of cake either, but I'll make sure to find some other interesting things too see around. :cheers:


I'm planning a Switzerland - Brest trip. About 1.300 kilometers, but I might want to hang around in the Auvergne, so it's gonna be longer


----------



## Timon91

You sound like a real Francegeek, Chris? Am I right? 

By the way, are you still planning to go to Slovenia?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ yeah, on a roadtrip with a friend of mine. 

I start to love France more and more. However, I still have to work on my French, it faded quite a lot.


----------



## x-type

this motorway and attitude of that plateau allways surprise me! looking at the maps i allways thought about A75 as boring straight motorway


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No A75 is the best. 300 kilometers of pleasure from A to Z. It already starts from Clermont-Ferrand to Issoire with a journey through a gorge.


----------



## christos-greece

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ yeah, on a roadtrip with a friend of mine.
> 
> I start to love France more and more. However, I still have to work on my French, it faded quite a lot.


I love France too :cheers:
Je t'aime France aussi :cheers:


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm planning a Switzerland - Brest trip. About 1.300 kilometers, but I might want to hang around in the Auvergne, so it's gonna be longer


The ultimate thing is a Menton-Brest trip.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> No A75 is the best. 300 kilometers of pleasure from A to Z. It already starts from Clermont-Ferrand to Issoire with a journey through a gorge.


The best part is from Issoire to Lodève. I hate the part from Clermont-Ferrand to Issoire. It wasn't meant to be so crappy. Initially they had planned to build a nice straight motorway up on the plateaux above the gorges, but the former president Giscard d'Estaing, who has an estate in the area, opposed it, so they just stupidly doubled the old national highway down in the gorges, which I find very dangerous and annoying. After Issoire, it's a brand new motorway (as it should have been between Clermont-Ferrand and Issoire), and that's the best part. In the uppermost part between Issoire and Séverac-le-Château, if you drive there in the end of summer on a non-busy day, you feel like you are so far away from cilization, I love the feeling.

But wait, the motorways are nothing. In France, the best thing is the 362,000 km (225,000 miles) of departmental roads (D something). I once drove from Montpellier to Albi in the end of summer around sunset, and since I wanted to avoid paying toll on the motorway I didn't take the motorway to Narbonne and Toulouse, and instead took a shortcut through the mountains on departmental roads. It was one of my most memorable driving experiences (and God knows I have driven some exeptional roads in California, but that one from Montpellier to Albi was just heavenly for some reason). First I took the A750 motorway between Montpellier and Gignac, which is a pure jewel, winding its way through rough terrain, with little traffic, so you can speed if you wish to, but beware of the curves! Then I crossed sleepy Gignac (there was no bypass at the time), and then I took the A75 as you did towards Lodève, the amazing Pas de l'Escalette climb, and then the wild Larzac plateau where the contrast with the Mediterranean foothills is incredible.

I then left the A75 at La Cavalerie (exit #47), and that's where the real adventure started! First the D999 towards St Rome de Cernon. As I arrived in sleepy St Rome de Cernon, it was starting to become dark, and three old Occitan ladies were sitting on a bench at the entrance of the village speaking quietly to each other. It felt like out of this world. Then I continued on the D999 towards St Afrique, passing by Roquefort, THE Roquefort where they produce the world-famous Roquefort cheese. In St Afrique, again sleepy lovely town basking in a warm summer evening, with a few people out and about in the streets. After St Afrique, I continued on the D999 towards St Sernin sur Rance. After St Sernin sur Rance, a really steep climb starts, with lots of curves, and the Mercedes that I was driving had trouble climbing that very steep road. After that steep climb you end up on a high plateau that dominates the entire region. I drove the last 38 km to Albi on that high plateau, with stars shining above me (no towns around, so no light polution), and pine (fir tree actually) forests around me, in contrast to the regions crossed before. I was almost alone on that plateau, at about 9pm, driving under the stars. It was heavenly!

That's what's great about driving in France: all the departmental and municipal roads everywhere that are worth discovering. In France there are 1,010,000 km (628,000 miles) of roads. That's the longest road network in Europe by far, going back to the French monarchy. A lifetime wouldn't be enough to drive them all. The motorways (autoroutes), of which there are only 11,000 km (6,800 miles), are just the tip of the iceberg. And because of the low population density in France, you can easily feel far away from civilization when you drive through the countryside.

Some departmental roads:





































A crazy project of mine someday would be to cross France from Dunkirk to Perpignan only on small countryside roads (white roads on Michelin maps). They usually have no markings on the road. They are the bulk of the 1 million km of roads in France.























































On a small road somewhere in Franch-Comté in Autumn:









That's just a small sample of the 1 million km of roads that are waiting to be discovered.


----------



## Nexis

Nice Pictures of the Back roads , but that Cattle Drive looks disturbing :lol::naughty:


----------



## mgk920

brisavoine said:


> Some departmental roads:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's just a small sample of the 1 million km of roads that are waiting to be discovered.


Where is that one?

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I have travelled quite some D-roads myself to avoid tolls. Those old Route Nationales are okay, but if you travelled 80 kilometers in two hours, you want a faster road


----------



## Verso

I like ordinary roads, but after an hour I'm fed up with them, cause it's too slow.


----------



## brisavoine

Verso said:


> I like ordinary roads, but after an hour I'm fed up with them, cause it's too slow.


I'm not talking about the National Roads here. The National Roads are indeed boring. I'm talking about the small Departmental Roads that meander through the countryside and go through villages. You can never get bored on them. Plus they aren't slow at all, given that there is little traffic.

I mean, how can you get bored on roads like that where you're all alone as if the road belonged to you?










I've driven miles and miles of roads up and down the hills of the Toulouse region, rarely crossing an incoming car.




























Even the larger Departmental Roads in the Toulouse region are spectacular. This is a major Departmental Roads somewhere in the rolling countryside of Gers, with a great view of the Pyreenes mountain range in the distant horizon:



















There are no motorways crossing the Gers, so if you only drive on motorways, you will never see the Gers, one of France's most scenic departments.


----------



## brisavoine

mgk920 said:


> Where is that one?
> 
> Mike


That's in the Vercors area.


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm planning a Switzerland - Brest trip.


i have missed this. it would be really interesting because i'd really like to know what roads in Bretagne look like


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Me too, I've never been to Bretagne


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Me too, I've never been to Bretagne


I strongly recommend it. There are some great coastal roads.


----------



## Ni3lS

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm planning a Switzerland - Brest trip. About 1.300 kilometers, but I might want to hang around in the Auvergne, so it's gonna be longer


Nice, I've been there. Be sure to visit Clermont Ferrand and Le Puy 



ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Me too, I've never been to Bretagne


I've been there in 2007, be sure to visit St. Malo


----------



## Morsue

Is St. Malo that place with an extreme tide? I've heard that somewhere in Bretagne the sea recedes a km or so during ebb.


----------



## Verso

Morsue said:


> Is St. Malo that place with an extreme tide? I've heard that somewhere in Bretagne the sea recedes a km or so during ebb.


That's Mont Saint-Michel.


----------



## christos-greece

Beautiful country roads :cheers: next time please post some paved road... 
(Tip: like Paris-Roubaix cycling tour paved roads)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The A31 is now 2x3 between A5 and A39 (Langres - Dijon) :cheers:


----------



## brisavoine

christos-greece said:


> Beautiful country roads :cheers: next time please post some paved road...
> (Tip: like Paris-Roubaix cycling tour paved roads)


Oh, I see. I was going to say "but all the roads I posted are paved", but I see you mixed up terms. In English, "paved" means a road covered with asphalt or any other cover, as opposed to a dirt road. All the roads I posted are paved (in France there remain only very few unpaved roads; but there are still a few, if you look for them carefully ).

What you meant by "paved road" is actually called "cobbled road" in English. There are indeed some cobbled roads in Picardy, Artois, and French Flanders, to the very north of France, made famous by the Paris-Roubaix cycling race, but these cobbled roads are not open to car traffic. Only mountain bikes and people on foot or horses can go on them.

Here are two such cobbled roads, near Lille:


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A31 is now 2x3 between A5 and A39 (Langres - Dijon) :cheers:


They are also planning to make the A61 between Toulouse and Narbonne entirely 2x3 from what I've heard.


----------



## Morsue

brisavoine said:


> They are also planning to make the A61 between Toulouse and Narbonne entirely 2x3 from what I've heard.


Then they need to complete the A9 as 2x3 from the Spanish border up until Orange. I know that the Spanish are turning the AP-7 on the other side of the border to 2x3 all the way to Barcelona (if not Tarragona), with a 2x4 section around Girona. The A9 can be extremely crowded in summer.


----------



## brisavoine

Morsue said:


> Then they need to complete the A9 as 2x3 from the Spanish border up until Orange.


:?

The A9 has been 2x3 for as long as I've known it.


----------



## Morsue

^^ As you can read from the map it's only 2x2 south of Perpignan and north of Nimes. The northern section is trickier since it involves building a new bridge over the Rhône.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've been on the entire A9. The part south of Perpignan is problematic, long waiting lines at toll booths and the Spanish border. But yes, they should make it 2x3. The Nîmes - Orange portion of A9 is one of the less busier parts though, quite some traffic heads eastbound to Nice. 

I think they should widen the entire A10 to 2x3 too. I know average traffic volumes don't need it, but when you're paying tolls in summer, it's ridiculous to have traffic jams of dozens of kilometers long. You're not getting what you're paying for in the summer peaks.


----------



## Robosteve

brisavoine said:


>


I love this picture. It kind of reminds me of Bain's Kloof Pass near Cape Town.

Also, I agree with you about less major roads being nicer some of the time. One of the nicest drives I've ever had was on Wombeyan Caves Road, which is about 100 km of dirt road southwest of Sydney that you can't really drive faster than 60 km/h on, and due to the fact that parts of it are very windy and narrow your average speed is more like 30 or 40. It took me about three hours to drive that whole road (it was at night, too); by the time I was done I had had enough driving for the moment and sped back on the Hume Highway at 140.


----------



## brisavoine

Morsue said:


> ^^ As you can read from the map it's only 2x2 south of Perpignan and north of Nimes. The northern section is trickier since it involves building a new bridge over the Rhône.





ChrisZwolle said:


> I've been on the entire A9. The part south of Perpignan is problematic, long waiting lines at toll booths and the Spanish border. But yes, they should make it 2x3. The Nîmes - Orange portion of A9 is one of the less busier parts though, quite some traffic heads eastbound to Nice.
> 
> I think they should widen the entire A10 to 2x3 too. I know average traffic volumes don't need it, but when you're paying tolls in summer, it's ridiculous to have traffic jams of dozens of kilometers long. You're not getting what you're paying for in the summer peaks.


Only two small sections of the A9 are still 2x2. I've checked on the French motorway forums (there are quite a few autoroute geeks in France apparently, with French autoroute forums almost as busy as SSC ), and the widening of these two sections is planned. So Perpignan-Le Perthus and Orange-Remoulins will become 2x3 before 2015.

Here on the map I have shown in orange (orange thick lines) the sections of motorways that are planned to be widened to 2x3 according to the French motorway forums (some are already u/c). I have also indicated in blue (blue thick lines) the new 2x2 motorways that are either u/c or planned.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A19 is to be completed in the 2nd half of this year.


----------



## brisavoine

Robosteve said:


> Also, I agree with you about less major roads being nicer some of the time. One of the nicest drives I've ever had was on Wombeyan Caves Road, which is about 100 km of dirt road southwest of Sydney that you can't really drive faster than 60 km/h on, and due to the fact that parts of it are very windy and narrow your average speed is more like 30 or 40. It took me about three hours to drive that whole road (it was at night, too); by the time I was done I had had enough driving for the moment and sped back on the Hume Highway at 140.


If you wanna test your driving skills and your patience, I recommend driving the D619 between Amélie-les-Bains and Ille-sur-Têt. Trust me, it's trying! My cousin almost threw up when we drove there. And when you're in the middle of it, there's no way back, you have to continue till the end.

But wait, the road becomes even more magnificent after Ille-sur-Têt. It's slightly easier driving (well, sort of), but the scenery and landscape are breathtaking. Once in your life you should drive between Prades, Sournia, Trévillach, Ansignan, Saint-Paul-de-Fenouillet. After Saint-Paul-de-Fenouillet, the Gorges de Galamus is one of the craziest roads in the world, and pretty scarry too! I've driven in Mexico, in California, in the Scottish Highlands, and many other places, but the Gorges de Galamus is just..... you'll see!

You can check all these places I mentioned on www.viamichelin.com


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> A19 is to be completed in the 2nd half of this year.


I've never understood what was the purpose of that motorway, but anyway!

They should have built the long awaited motorway between Lyon and Toulouse instead. The 2nd and 5th largest metropolitan areas of France still not linked by a motorway. :nuts:


----------



## christos-greece

brisavoine said:


> Here are two such cobbled roads, near Lille:


Thanks brisavoine :cheers:


----------



## Robosteve

brisavoine said:


> If you wanna test your driving skills and your patience, I recommend driving the D619 between Amélie-les-Bains and Ille-sur-Têt. Trust me, it's trying! My cousin almost threw up when we drove there. And when you're in the middle of it, there's no way back, you have to continue till the end.
> 
> But wait, the road becomes even more magnificent after Ille-sur-Têt. It's slightly easier driving (well, sort of), but the scenery and landscape are breathtaking. Once in your life you should drive between Prades, Sournia, Trévillach, Ansignan, Saint-Paul-de-Fenouillet. After Saint-Paul-de-Fenouillet, the Gorges de Galamus is one of the craziest roads in the world, and pretty scarry too! I've driven in Mexico, in California, in the Scottish Highlands, and many other places, but the Gorges de Galamus is just..... you'll see!
> 
> You can check all these places I mentioned on www.viamichelin.com


Thanks, I'll be sure to keep that in mind if I ever visit France, which I would like to someday.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I wish I knew that, I drove on the N116 in August... from Bourg-Madame to Perpignan.


----------



## Verso

brisavoine said:


>


The Annecy-Geneva motorway was opened recently.


----------



## steph35

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm planning a Switzerland - Brest trip. About 1.300 kilometers, but I might want to hang around in the Auvergne, so it's gonna be longer


In Bretagne no Autoroutes only freeways 2x2 lanes (Nationales and Départementales).

From these 2x2 lanes i can recomended to you some good spots... 
-a good view on Quimper in the direction of Brest ; going to St-Malo from Rennes a 1km long view, on and along Rance river ; over the Rance River Valley on the road Dol-de-Bretagne->Dinan ; The Rance River Dam between St-Malo and Dinard ; a cool spot on Rennes coming from Nantes ; the best arrival view on Brest by road is coming from Quimper, not from Rennes 

-the must see : this one Morlaix from nationale during 3 seconds ;

One of the best road on those i've drove not far from Brest, If you have time, try this 2x1 lanes D791 (=>http://www.panoramio.com/map/#lt=48.274682&ln=-4.255400&z=3&k=2&a=1&tab=1)



Morsue said:


> Is St. Malo that place with an extreme tide? I've heard that somewhere in Bretagne the sea recedes a km or so during ebb.





Verso said:


> That's Mont Saint-Michel.


That's true for Saint-Malo too


----------



## christos-greece

This part of the road from Google maps looks complete:
original pic from brisavoine:


----------



## Ni3lS

Some pics ( A40 Nantua ) Love it!














































Source: All from google


----------



## christos-greece

Hmm... i love it too  also the terrain is wonderful!
Where exactly is this motorway?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Just west of Geneva.


----------



## christos-greece

Thanks Chris ^^


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A75 has been extended to the south somewhat (Valros)


----------



## Mateusz

What are the newest developments in France still to come ? Or planned in close future ?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The largest projects are the A19 Courteney - Orléans and the A65 Langgon - Pau I think.


----------



## christos-greece

I have noticed that in French motorways some of those has green road-plates or some other like A75 ^^ blue road-plates. What the difference in France about that, in the lanes?


----------



## Substructure

Blue sign means you'll be driving on a motorway to reach the destination.
Green means you will exit the motorway to a major city or a national road. Some national roads are almost up to motorway standards, while some are regular roads.
White means an immediate exit to a destination.

Here for instance, you have the A86 motorway to Nanterre, or an immediate exit (#10) to the city of Aubervilliers.


----------



## Morsue

In Sweden it's actually the other way around. Green for motorways and blue for national roads. But we also have white for local destinations.


----------



## Verso

^ Not only in Sweden.


----------



## christos-greece

Substructure said:


> Blue sign means you'll be driving on a motorway to reach the destination.
> Green means you will exit the motorway to a major city or a national road. Some national roads are almost up to motorway standards, while some are regular roads.
> White means an immediate exit to a destination.
> 
> Here for instance, you have the A86 motorway to Nanterre, or an immediate exit (#10) to the city of Aubervilliers.


Thanks Substructure, btw i knew about white signs...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

More of the new A41 south of Genève. Posted by Vynkce on the Dutch wegenforum.


----------



## christos-greece

ChrisZwolle said:


>


Those tolls are the borders between France - Switzerland? I dont know; Switzerland is "open" like the other members of E.U. ?


----------



## sotonsi

"Switzerland is "open" like the other members of E.U."

Switzerland is part of the Schengen (sp?) agreement. It is not a member of the EU. The UK and the Republic of Ireland are the opposite - EU members that aren't part of Schengen.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

From a Swiss I heard it's free movement of people, but not yet of goods, so theoretically your vehicle can still be searched without having to weave with a passport. It's basically not that different from before the Schengen adoption, there weren't that many checks on the border. They usually pick suspicious vehicles, or those with Eastern European tags.


----------



## brisavoine

christos-greece said:


> Those tolls are the borders between France - Switzerland?


No, it's just motorway entrance and exit.

The border between France and the canton of Geneva is in a plain.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


>


Interesting to see the center of Geneva signed already 24 km before it. Also interesting to see three solely foreign destinations quite some kms before the border.


----------



## ExtraMuros

Morsue said:


> But what if you're not living in the area and felt like getting off there (hmm, that sounds strange...)? Do the cops start to chase you?


You go to the next toll which is not very far from this one. :lol:

But I think this system is temporary, due the closed bridge "Pont de la Caille" that prevent people to use the nearby national road...


----------



## Morsue

But I don't see any barriers preventing people who don't pay to simply pass the station. Or am I blind?

Once, I was riding in France with my brother. We were leaving Dijon heading for Lyon. When entering the motorway he saw no barriers and thought "cool, I won't have to pay!". When we arrived at Lyon without a ticket you can imagine what happened. We had to pay for going all the way from Paris


----------



## x-type

Morsue said:


> Once, I was riding in France with my brother. We were leaving Dijon heading for Lyon. When entering the motorway he saw no barriers and thought "cool, I won't have to pay!". When we arrived at Lyon without a ticket you can imagine what happened. We had to pay for going all the way from Paris


khm, lucky you. usually you pay double longest ride


----------



## Morsue

Yeah, well this was some 20 years ago. Maybe the rules have changed.


----------



## brisavoine

^^Depends in which region. In the southwest of France, the ladies at the toll stations are cooler. Once I went from Toulouse to Montauban, only 2.5 euros, but for some reason the machine at the Toulouse toll station didn't work, so it didn't give me a ticket. When I arrived at Montauban toll station, I told the lady the machine didn't work in Toulouse, and instead of asking me to pay the full Bordeaux-Montauban price (about 14 euros), or even double that if what you say is right, she believed me and asked me to pay only 2.5 euros. 

Next time I will tell you how my cousin cheats Autoroutes du Sud de la France and manages to pay 0 euros from Toulouse to Montpellier. There's a trick.


----------



## brisavoine

French road going up a beautiful little valley in Autumn, near the village of Charabotte (visible down the valley), in the Ain département.


----------



## mgk920

H123Laci said:


> ...or automated cash payment...
> 
> its a pure fun: you gather the change from your wallet and with a nice armswing get it into the cash-basket...
> 
> french motorways are really expensive, but this payment method compensates... :lol:


I wonder....

Toll baskets in Illinois (USA) accept USA$0.01 coins...

:yes:

...Do these accept €0.01 coins?

:|

:lol::lol::lol:

Mike


----------



## Verso

Morsue said:


> Once, I was riding in France with my brother. We were leaving Dijon heading for Lyon. When entering the motorway he saw no barriers and thought "cool, I won't have to pay!". When we arrived at Lyon without a ticket you can imagine what happened. We had to pay for going all the way from Paris


Before we had vignettes in Slovenia, I once entered a motorway via ETC (so no paper ticket) only to later realize I don't even know how much money I have on the device, so I didn't risk blocking the lane. However, there was no combined lane open (ETC + cash), just a cash-only lane. Of course I soon realized I had no ticket, and had to pay the motorway's full length. Later I found out I'd had enough money on the device. :wallbash:


----------



## x-type

brisavoine said:


> ^^Depends in which region. In the southwest of France, the ladies at the toll stations are cooler. Once I went from Toulouse to Montauban, only 2.5 euros, but for some reason the machine at the Toulouse toll station didn't work, so it didn't give me a ticket. When I arrived at Montauban toll station, I told the lady the machine didn't work in Toulouse, and instead of asking me to pay the full Bordeaux-Montauban price (about 14 euros), or even double that if what you say is right, she believed me and asked me to pay only 2.5 euros.


isn't there SOS button for that situations? i had that situations once here in Croatia. i was too close to car in front of me so the sensores read us as one car, so he got a ticket, i didn't. but i pressed that SOS button and few moments after that i got a ticket. ok, i couldn't pass anyway because ramp is down as long as you don't take a ticket.


----------



## H123Laci

mgk920 said:


> Do these accept €0.01 coins?


are there €0.01 coins? :nuts:

our smallest coin is the 5 Ft coin (about €0.017) :lol:


----------



## x-type

H123Laci said:


> are there €0.01 coins? :nuts:
> 
> our smallest coin is the 5 Ft coin (about €0.017) :lol:


of course there are. but i think that machines at toll stations accept 0,10€ as the smallest (since all amounts are rounded on 0,1)


----------



## ABRob

H123Laci said:


> are there €0.01 coins? :nuts:


Of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_cent_euro_coins


----------



## Minato ku

Actually most driver use debit card.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

H123Laci said:


> are there €0.01 coins? :nuts:
> 
> our smallest coin is the 5 Ft coin (about €0.017) :lol:


Most stores in the Netherlands round off to the nearest 5 cents, hence nearly nobody is using the € 0,01 coins anymore. Technically, you can still pay with it everywhere since it's an official currency.



Minato ku said:


> Actually most driver use debit card.


Yeah, I use a creditcard, ha-ha to all those Dutchmen waiting in line, trying to pay with their Dutch bankcards with their stupid caravans! 
(You can't use your Dutch PIN Bank card on many places outside NL).

The Netherlands is a bit strange in electronic payment. The use of your PIN bank card is widespread, and you can pay with it everywhere in NL, but not everywhere outside NL, except ATM's and some stores. However, foreigners cannot use their credit cards in most Dutch stores, since the Dutch do not use a credit card very much.


----------



## ExtraMuros

Morsue said:


> But I don't see any barriers preventing people who don't pay to simply pass the station. Or am I blind ?


I'm sorry to say that you are...:lol:
I was there this morning and there are barriers.


----------



## x-type

ExtraMuros said:


> I'm sorry to say that you are...:lol:
> I was there this morning and there are barriers.


could we get some better and closer photos of those toll stations? i'm really interested into them!


----------



## Verso

I see ramps by those toll booths.


----------



## Brice

Minato ku said:


> Actually most driver use debit card.


Don't they have a system like E-ZPass?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, Libert-T


----------



## x-type

and why are they assymetric (one passage is wider then the other one)


----------



## ExtraMuros

^^I can tell you that these tolls are completely NORMAL... :lol:
2 barriers each and no booth (and they are not assymetric). Sorry but I can't find any closed picture of this very, very strange place...:lol:


----------



## christos-greece

brisavoine said:


> Next time I will tell you how my cousin cheats Autoroutes du Sud de la France and manages to pay 0 euros from Toulouse to Montpellier. There's a trick.


How your cousin managed that?


----------



## caserass

yep, I would like to know it me too !


----------



## x-type

ExtraMuros said:


> ^^I can tell you that these tolls are completely NORMAL... :lol:
> 2 barriers each and no booth (and they are not assymetric). Sorry but I can't find any closed picture of this very, very strange place...:lol:


but it is so intriguing place to all of us


----------



## Verso

It's totally normal to me, ramps are visible.


----------



## brisavoine

A countryside road in the Dauphiné, near Gap:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm considering a scenic route from Martigny (CH) to Nice. However, it includes high altitude mountain passes. Does anybody know the chances of the Iseran, Galibier and Bonette passes still being closed in mid-June?


----------



## panda80

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm considering a scenic route from Martigny (CH) to Nice. However, it includes high altitude mountain passes. Does anybody know the chances of the Iseran, Galibier and Bonette passes still being closed in mid-June?


we expect great pictures from there, Chris:cheers:


----------



## christos-greece

Country-side roads (in France) are beautiful


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> Does anybody know the chances of the Iseran, Galibier and Bonette passes still being closed in mid-June?


Low.


----------



## convalescence

I already posted some pics in the belgian forum from my trip home from Paris, but these pictures I'll post now were taken some hours/minutes earlier so don't be confused - and btw: I played with some color functions of my camera, hope it won't disturb too much...



first some pics of A4/E50 Paris-Reims:








































You see the new HSL at the left






The motorway near Reims (here interchange E17/E50 southwest of Reims) was jammed due to works on bridges - i think I've read something about widening it



After Reims, we took the E46 to Charleville-Mezieres which is an expressway (in Germany it would probably be a Gelbe Autobahn) till Rethel, but then a motorway upto Sedan.

still an expressway (N51) before Rethel - in this stretch without shoulders



Exit to Rethel - shoulders again



then after Rethel it's a motorway (A34)







Near Charleville-M. there's a motorway/expressway interchange where A34 ends, we took A203 to Sedan



End of motorway near Sedan, then it leads into N43



some kilometres east of Sedan there's an expressway interchange and we went further direction Liège northbound (N58), which leads into belgian N89 at the border - pictures of it here:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=35036604&postcount=410


----------



## Mateusz

When restoration of A25 will finish ? There were long jams because of it


----------



## ajch

Could somebody help?

I, when seeing this route, A51, think that there is something wrong, like if the two part of the A51 are going to different points instead of going to a union point. But i suppose there must be a plan to finish this route in a middle point. Could somebody say what is the plan route?, following the N85 or following the E712?


----------



## -Pino-

Wikisara suggests that both options are still open, even though there seems to be a preference for the N85 option. I agree though that this route could never connect to the Southern terminus of the Northern part of the route. Likewise, the N85 option could never connect the Northern terminus of the Southern part of the route. Since completion of the route has always been a rather remote scenario, I guess the French have preferred to just extend both parts of the A51 autonomously. On the Southern end, an extension to Gap was useful; on the Northern end, an extension to the Col de la Croix Haute was useful.

In the unlikely event that the route would ever be completed (it's still not fully excluded), there would probably have to be a renumbering somewhere along the current A51.


----------



## H123Laci

ajch said:


> Could somebody say what is the plan route?, following the N85 or following the E712?



check the terrain and you will get the answer...


----------



## ajch

-Pino- said:


> Wikisara suggests that both options are still open, even though there seems to be a preference for the N85 option. I agree though that this route could never connect to the Southern terminus of the Northern part of the route. Likewise, the N85 option could never connect the Northern terminus of the Southern part of the route. Since completion of the route has always been a rather remote scenario, I guess the French have preferred to just extend both parts of the A51 autonomously. On the Southern end, an extension to Gap was useful; on the Northern end, an extension to the Col de la Croix Haute was useful.
> 
> In the unlikely event that the route would ever be completed (it's still not fully excluded), there would probably have to be a renumbering somewhere along the current A51.


Thanks for the info



H123Laci said:


> check the terrain and you will get the answer...


following the river Drac?


----------



## ABRob

ajch said:


> Could somebody help?
> 
> I, when seeing this route, A51, think that there is something wrong, like if the two part of the A51 are going to different points instead of going to a union point. But i suppose there must be a plan to finish this route in a middle point. Could somebody say what is the plan route?, following the N85 or following the E712?


On this site you will find some plans, but I don't know, if these are official plans.
Flash map: http://autoroutea51.free.fr/page3.php3?page=autoroute.php3&page2=autoroute_index.htm
project maps: http://autoroutea51.free.fr/page3.php3?page=projet1.php3&page2=cartes.htm

If this will be build, the "Viaduct de l'Ebron" will be huge - hight > 200m
-> http://autoroutea51.free.fr/carte/plan/Monestier-Lavars.jpg


----------



## christos-greece

The road is nice, clean... btw i liked the effects from your @cameraconvalescence


----------



## Mateusz

I would stick with E712 rather than N85... Route Napoleon (whatoever the spelling is) is very dangerous. Polish coach crashed there 2 years ago and many people died


----------



## Cyril

*Paris in a nutshell*

Taken today off motorway A6b south of Paris:


----------



## bakatje

Really nice picture. Love the overview of Paris.


----------



## christos-greece

Cyril said:


> Taken today off motorway A6b south of Paris:


The A6 motorway, the section in the pic is not part of Paris ring-road? Or it is?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Porte d'Italie interchange is just 400 meters away, so I guess this is just before the BP.


----------



## Feanaro

Views from the A8 near Nice, Monaco and Italy.









Benjamin73fr









Benjamin73fr









Benjamin73fr


----------



## christos-greece

^^ The view from this motorway, especially around Monaco and Nice is great


----------



## Feanaro

Motorway around Nice (in red)


----------



## Verso

Feanaro said:


> Motorway around Nice (in red)


Thanks, we didn't know. :lol:


----------



## Polonus

A few pictures taken by my relatives in the summer 2008 somewhere in France:


----------



## Morsue

^^ Autoroute A9, southern France. Direction Orange.


----------



## Majestic

Polonus said:


>


Where is this 5-lane section? How long is it?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's on A7 just north of Orange interchange (with A9). It's very short, it continues as 3 lanes pretty fast.


----------



## christos-greece

This motorway (Polonus photos) is going straight to Paris?



Polonus said:


> A few pictures taken by my relatives in the summer 2008 somewhere in France:


Beautiful old car :cheers:


----------



## Qaabus

Looks like a Morgan. It could be brand new.


----------



## christos-greece

^^ I dont know... if that motorway is A7, that i think goes to Paris...


----------



## Morsue

The pictures are taken on the A9 motorway, which goes from the Spanish border to an interchange with the A7 near Orange. The A7 goes from Marseille to Lyon. Inside Lyon, the road changes number to A6 which then takes you to Paris.


----------



## christos-greece

^^ Thanks for the explanation... i dont remembered if was A7 or A6


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Summer traffic season starts today!
A6


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A7 is jammed 105 km between Lyon and Orange (out of 180 km). Delay is 2 hours according to TomTom HD traffic. Especially the Lyon - Valence part is bad.


----------



## christos-greece

ChrisZwolle said:


> Summer traffic season starts today!
> A6


The photo talks it self...


----------



## Mateusz

What's busiest motorway in France ? My guess is A1 in Paris


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A4 in Paris I believe...


----------



## Substructure

Indeed, the A4 Paris-Strasbourg is the busiest motorway in its western part.
However the Peripherique (Paris inner beltway) is actually the busiest motorway of Europe (AADT around 1.2 million), although not exactly considered a motorway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So the BP has 45 lanes? Otherwise 1.2 million is complete nonsense..


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Actually, we had this discussion before.

The 1.2 million figure was from the entire Boulevard Peripherique, which is not the way traffic volumes are normally measured.

Usually, traffic volumes are measured between two interchanges. The BP has 6 to 10 lanes. My guess is most sections have between 150,000 and 200,000 AADT.


----------



## Minato ku

1.2 million is for the whole beltway. There is 32 km, car use it for 7 km in average.
In average the Peripherique is around 250,000 cars.

I think that we could find part where there is 300,000 cars per day.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Are there official stats for the BP online? They're hard to find, I have searched for them before.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Paris is rushing home for the Bastille Day long weekend (Quatorze Julliet)


----------



## brisavoine

Traffic jams (in red) in Greater Paris at 8:10pm:


----------



## brisavoine

Greater Lyon at 8:20pm:









Greater Marseille:









Greater Toulouse:


----------



## GregfromAustria

Hi there!
here are some photos of the A8 motorway at the french riviera which i made during my vacation in southern france and italy

starting with a beautiful landscape near saint tropez:


















back on the way to Ventimglia (I) on this fantastic motorway, Cannes/Grasse exit:










































at Antibes:










the first toll plaza:










traffic is getting heavier ....


























































Nice:


























































what´s the time? ah 









i like the french signage:










the next toll gate:



















men at work ahead:


















expensive cars.....


















...monaco of course!










great view:


















i hope thats not to much for you but i´m so impressed by this motorway...


















Finally the french/italien border:


----------



## x-type

oh, it indeed is outrageous motorway! specific because of many toll gates, tunnels/viaducts and fantastic landscape. i remember lots of emergency exits for lorries with burnt brakes in that area.


----------



## brisavoine

Indeed, a beautiful motorway. The last time I was there, I was 6 y/o, so it's been ages!! Sometimes I wonder whether I shouldn't move there. After all they have the most gorgeous weather and landscape in Europe, much much better than either Paris or London. Ok, only 1 million people in the metro area, but such a gorgeous weather and landscape... I had a classmate from Nice who told me how he used to go running along the beach in T-shirt or very light jacket all year long...

Anyway, for an idea of how it looked before the motorway was built, here is the very famous N7 national highway from Paris to Italy. I'm posting pics of the section you took picture of (from St Tropez to the Italian border). This is how it would have been for you if you had driven there before the motorway was built.

The N7 right after Brignoles. The N7 was enlarged in the 1960s. To the left is the original N7 as it stood before the 1960s, and to the right is the N7 built in the 1960s:









The N7 crossing the town of Vidauban. It's hard to see on the picture, but the street to the right is actually the D48 road, and the sign on the building actually says "Saint-Tropez". Way to go if you wanted to reach Saint-Tropez, otherwise if you continued straight you would reach Nice after a couple more hours.










Continuing straight on the N7, you arrived after about 25 km in the ancient Roman port city of Fréjus. This is the first time that you were actually seeing the Mediterranean Sea since you had left Paris!










In Fréjus, the N7 ran next to the Via Augusta (the road from Rome to Marseille and Lyon).










After Fréjus you had to cross the Estérel mountain range, perhaps the most beautiful mountain range in France, with the N7 cutting its way between the mountain and the sea. The motorway now completely bypasses this beautiful area, and it's not as beautiful as driving on the old N7.










There are no less than 183 turns on the N7 as it crosses the Estérel moutain range, and since the motorway was opened in 1960, few people still drive these 183 turns. Before the motorway was opened, all the traffic went through that road, and it was almost impossible to pass cars due to the many turns, so it was a long traffic jam before reaching Cannes.










And finally, having crossed the Estérel, you arrived in Cannes, driving on the famous Croisette seaside boulevard where movie stars make famous appearances during the Cannes Film Festival. The Croisette was the only way to cross Cannes, there were no bypasses or motorways till 1960. You can see the Croisette and the Carlton Hotel on the picture.










After Cannes the N7 crossed Juan-les-Pins, the place where Napoleon landed in 1815 on his attempt to get back in power. The picture shows the N7 crossing Juan-les-Pins in 1963.










A few kilometers after Juan-les-Pins you crossed the Var River, which until 1860 marked the border between France and Piedmont-Sardinia, and then on the other bank of the Var River you finally reached Nice, entering the city by driving on the world-renowned Promenade des Anglais.



















After Nice you basically had to cross the Alps as they plunge into the Mediterranean, the so-called Maritime Alps, to reach the Italian border, and this was (and still is) a spectacular journey. There were two roads to cross the Maritime Alps. One was the Grande Corniche ("Great Corniche"), the other was the Moyenne Corniche ("Middle Corniche"). The Grande Corniche is probably the most famous road in Europe. It is the road you see very often in TV commercials for luxury cars. The Grande Corniche was built by Napoleon I who had noticed how difficult it was to move troops from France to Italy during the French campaign in Italy in 1796 when his troops had to cross the Maritime Alps on the back of mules (there existed no road at the time).

The Grande Corniche is the highest above the Mediterranean, it's narrow and curvy, so between WW1 and WW2 the French authorities built the Moyenne Corniche, which is closer to sea-level, wider, and less curvy, but also less scenic than the mythical Grande Corniche. The N7 was going on the Grande Corniche till the Moyenne Corniche was built, then it was the Moyenne Corniche which became the N7.

Here is the Grande Corniche in the beginning of the 20th century.










The Grande Corniche goes more than 500 meters above sea-level, providing magnificent views of the Mediterranean. Here above the village of Eze.










At La Turbie, above Monaco, the Grande Corniche passed by the so called Trophy of Augustus, erected right on the border between Italy and Gaul by Emperor Augustus 20 centuries ago in the honor of his two grandsons .










The Moyenne Corniche is a bit less spectacular, but quite scenic nonetheless. This picture was taken from the Grande Corniche above the village of Eze, and the viaduct you can see below is the Moyenne Corniche.










The Moyenne Corniche in the 1960s near Monaco, with a tunnel carved in the rock of the mountain.










French tourists on the Moyenne Corniche just before Monaco in 1951.



















Both corniches met in Menton, and just after Menton the N7 arrived at the border. End of the N7. Just after the building in the middle of the road starts l'Italia!


----------



## I-275westcoastfl

Wow France has some impressive highways, nice pics!


----------



## GregfromAustria

@brisavoine: thank you for those interesting old pics!


----------



## pijanec

Grande Corniche still exist?


----------



## OzFrog

Are there any photos in existence of the A8 under construction? I've always been fascinated by all the bridges and tunnels of that autoroute!


----------



## brisavoine

pijanec said:


> Grande Corniche still exist?


Of course it does. It goes on average 400 meters above sea-level. Its highest point is 512 meters above sea-level. It's much more beautiful than the motorway. In fact it is reputed as the most beautiful road in Europe.

The Grande Corniche is the uppermost road to the right of the picture:













































Monaco as seen from the Grande Corniche:


















Grande Corniche entering La Turbie, where the Trophy of Augustus stands on the historical border between Italy and Gaul:









The Trophy of Augustus is still visible 2000 years after it was erected (you can compare with the 1900 picture that I posted above):









That's the 1900 picture:









The Grande Corniche was a massive engineering project when it was built between 1805 and 1814 under the orders of Napoleon:


----------



## GregfromAustria

oh i remember the wonderful view of this road.....it´s going trough "eze" as well, right?


----------



## brisavoine

GregfromAustria said:


> oh i remember the wonderful view of this road.....it´s going trough "eze" as well, right?


It goes above Eze (you can see the village of Eze several hundred meters down the road).


----------



## brisavoine

EDIT (too many pics on page)


----------



## snowman159

Here's a pic of one of the tunnels on the Western BP at Parc des Princes:


----------



## christos-greece

snowman159 said:


> You mean the couverture de la plaine on the A1 in St. Denis:


Yes snowman... that specific motorway; i compare the photo with the map, it is the same area
Many thanks


----------



## brisavoine

Bit of news I've just heard on the evening TV news: the bridge over the Oyapock River that will link France to Brazil and will be the first land connection opened between both countries is now scheduled to open in 2012. The bridge will be 378 meter long. The masts will be 83 meter high. There will be two lanes for cars, 3.50 meter wide each, plus two lanes for pedestrians and cyclists.










Render (Brazil to the left, France to the right):


----------



## Verso

^^ What about a bridge to Suriname (between Saint-Laurent-du-Maroni and Albina)?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Border between the Netherlands and France:


----------



## x-type

^^
where exactly? i see Netherlands Antilles flag


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Sint Maarten / Saint-Martin


----------



## brisavoine

Verso said:


> ^^ What about a bridge to Suriname (between Saint-Laurent-du-Maroni and Albina)?


At the moment there's no plan for such a bridge. It was already complicated enough to get the Franco-Brazilian bridge going, they had been talking about it for decades without doing anything (too far from Paris and Brasilia for the central governments to care until Sarkozy and Lula came to power, and a lot of fears from the French Guianase who think the bridge will bring more Brazilian immigrants and more traffic, in fact I believe a majority of the French Guianese are still opposed to building the bridge). So building a bridge across the Franco-Surinamese border seems even more complicated. To start with, the Maroni River is much wider than the Oyapock River, so the bridge would cost much more, and Suriname is poor and small, contrary to Brazil. Eventually, someday, they will probably build a bridge over the Maroni, so it will be possible to drive from Brazil to Suriname through French Guiana, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.


----------



## SuperSergei

What does the french word "Rappel" mean? I often see "Rappel" below a speed limit sign in France.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

"repeat" / "reminder".


----------



## brisavoine

"Reminder" is the correct translation. In this context at least.

In a commercial/industrial context, "rappel" means recalling a product that has some defects. "Rappel" can have other meanings in other contexts.


----------



## brisavoine

The Route des Tamarins ("Tamarind Road", a motorway in fact), on the island of Réunion, is now completed and opened to the public. It's one of the most spectacular motorways in the EU, if not THE most spectacular, crossing gorges that are so deep that the Eiffel Tower could fit in. Here are a few pictures.



















This viaduct is 320 meters long, just to give you an idea of dimensions. If you put the Eiffel Tower at the bottom of the gorge, the top of the Eiffel Tower would be approximately at the same level as the viaduct.


----------



## gramercy

lol @ dog


----------



## christos-greece

The Route des Tamarins (Tamarind Road) looking quite new, in a very good shape...


----------



## andrelot

*Short questions to my French friends*

I'm Italian and I love to drive in France. Last fall I was driven from a city near Firenze to Santander (Spain), and instead of taking the coast highway (from Menton - Monaco - Nice - Nîmes - Montepellier - Barcelona) I decided to take a route through Torino - Chambéry - Lyon - Saint-Ettienne - Clemont-Ferrand - Périgueux - Bordeaux - Irun, driving in some (then) newly opened stretches of the A89 near Perigueux.

Now, I have some doubts:

1. Are they any plans to finish the link between A89 and A20 near Brive-la-Gallard? Not that the place is not beautiful (it is very nice, indeed) but is seems nonsense to get a detour through a local road for 3/4 km. I guess than in the summer that strecht would be a major bottleneck like there was once one at Millau.

2. When approaching Clemont-Ferrand by A72 from Lyon, you need to take a big "detour" to the North on A71 before heading southwest on A89. Are they planning any shorter route throuhg south of Clemont-Ferrand to connect with A89?

3. Almost the entire strecht of N10 south of Bordeaux until Bayonne are marked with 110 km/h speed limit instead of usual 130 km/h. The highway is even an "N" and not an "A", but, aside of no tolls being collected, I couldn't find any difference between this N route and the other A highway.

4. This concerns the strecht between Nîmes and Aix-en-Provence. Are they planning to update some strechtes of A54 near Arles to freeway standards? It's pretty boring to reduce your speed to 80km/h and drive on tight curves before regaining the freeway again. Maybe a bypass would do it fine...


----------



## max9309

andrelot said:


> *Short questions to my French friends*
> 
> I'm Italian and I love to drive in France. Last fall I was driven from a city near Firenze to Santander (Spain), and instead of taking the coast highway (from Menton - Monaco - Nice - Nîmes - Montepellier - Barcelona) I decided to take a route through Torino - Chambéry - Lyon - Saint-Ettienne - Clemont-Ferrand - Périgueux - Bordeaux - Irun, driving in some (then) newly opened stretches of the A89 near Perigueux.
> 
> Now, I have some doubts:
> 
> 1. Are they any plans to finish the link between A89 and A20 near Brive-la-Gallard? Not that the place is not beautiful (it is very nice, indeed) but is seems nonsense to get a detour through a local road for 3/4 km. I guess than in the summer that strecht would be a major bottleneck like there was once one at Millau.
> 
> 2. When approaching Clemont-Ferrand by A72 from Lyon, you need to take a big "detour" to the North on A71 before heading southwest on A89. Are they planning any shorter route throuhg south of Clemont-Ferrand to connect with A89?
> 
> 3. Almost the entire strecht of N10 south of Bordeaux until Bayonne are marked with 110 km/h speed limit instead of usual 130 km/h. The highway is even an "N" and not an "A", but, aside of no tolls being collected, I couldn't find any difference between this N route and the other A highway.
> 
> 4. This concerns the strecht between Nîmes and Aix-en-Provence. Are they planning to update some strechtes of A54 near Arles to freeway standards? It's pretty boring to reduce your speed to 80km/h and drive on tight curves before regaining the freeway again. Maybe a bypass would do it fine...


to answer to these few questions

1 for A89 unfortunately there are no plans to finish it, maybe they will upgrade the departementale which links A89 and A20 to 2x2 and also upgrade A20 between the two parts of A89 for 2X2 to 2x3 but just that is "planed"

2 for the A71 detour, the situation will stays like that at the west of this motorway because it's the final way for A89, they couldn't build ot straight to Clermont due to protected area of Auvergne's volcanos
at the east of A71 they plan to build a short section to reduce the detour which is called "antenne de St Beauzine" but there is no construction date at the moment

3 the difference beetwen N and A, apart the speed limits, are in the fact that N aren't in motorway standarts
for the case of this stretch of N10, they plan to upgrade it into motorway standarts --> A63 and also to 2X3
the problem is that this upgrade will cause the toll on this stretch

4 for A54 they also plan to build Arles bypass but here too no date of construction is known, this bypass will probably be tolled to ASF which is the concessionaire of A54

hope that I could answer to your questions


----------



## max9309

christos-greece said:


> The Route des Tamarins (Tamarind Road) looking quite new, in a very good shape...


yes it opened few momths ago, this summer I think


----------



## christos-greece

^^ BTW, its the main existing motorway in this island?


----------



## max9309

no i'ts not clasified in motorways just a "voie express"

and no some stretches were opened before this one
there already was an expressway between St Denis, the main town of the island, and St Paul which is called "route du litoral", this road is followed by the route des tamarins from St paul to l'Etang Salé
these two roads are part of the Nationale 1 and are situated on the west side of the island
on the east side there is also an expressway beetwen St Denis and St Benoit which is part of the Nationale 2
to link the 2 sides St Denis bypass was finished recently, unfortunately in its eastern part there are severals roundabout but now there is 2+2 from St Benoit to l'Etang Salé

sorry no map to illustrate that


----------



## christos-greece

max9309 said:


> no i'ts not clasified in motorways just a "voie express"
> 
> and no some stretches were opened before this one
> there already was an expressway between St Denis, the main town of the island, and St Paul which is called "route du litoral", this road is followed by the route des tamarins from St paul to l'Etang Salé
> these two roads are part of the Nationale 1 and are situated on the west side of the island
> on the east side there is also an expressway beetwen St Denis and St Benoit which is part of the Nationale 2
> to link the 2 sides St Denis bypass was finished recently, unfortunately in its eastern part there are severals roundabout but now there is 2+2 from St Benoit to l'Etang Salé
> 
> sorry no map to illustrate that


Thanks, i may google it (google maps)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Viaduc de Millau (A75) turns 5 today! :cheers:



> # 2004 – The Millau viaduct, the highest bridge in the world, near Millau, France is officially opened.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Pas de Peyrol* (el. 1,589 m) is a mountain pass located in Auvergne, France, and is the highest road pass in the Massif Central. The pass is on the slopes of Puy Mary (1,787 m) and is situated at the junction of three roads:

* D17 to the south-west towards Aurillac, via the Col de Redondet (1,531 m), then down the valley of the River Jordanne.
* D680 to the north-west towards Salers
* D680 to the east, towards Dienne, down the valley of the River Santoire

Streetview:


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> *Pas de Peyrol* (el. 1,589 m) is a mountain pass located in Auvergne, France, and is the highest road pass in the Massif Central. The pass is on the slopes of Puy Mary (1,787 m) and is situated at the junction of three roads:
> 
> * D17 to the south-west towards Aurillac, via the Col de Redondet (1,531 m), then down the valley of the River Jordanne.
> * D680 to the north-west towards Salers
> * D680 to the east, towards Dienne, down the valley of the River Santoire


When I was a teenager I organized a family trip to Auvergne with my parents. It was on the Ascension week-end in May, we wanted to drive to Pas de Peyrol, but we couldn't because there was still some snow so we had to tun back 1km before the pass.


----------



## christos-greece

Which motorway of the existing in the mountains (Alps, Massif Central etc) has the longest tunnel(s)?


----------



## x-type

christos-greece said:


> Which motorway of the existing in the mountains (Alps, Massif Central etc) has the longest tunnel(s)?


if you ask only for mountains' tunnels at motorways (so urban tunnels excluded), that should be tunnel Orelle at A43, long 3692 m (however, it is single-tube, 2+1 traffic, but still part of A43).
longest montainious tunnel with double tube would be tunnel Chamoise at A40 long 3264 m..

of course, all that worths if we don't consider Mont Blanc and Frejus as motorway tunnels.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Street View already has the new A410 (former A41). Recently, the A41 was rerouted directly towards Geneve.


----------



## christos-greece

x-type said:


> if you ask only for mountains' tunnels at motorways (so urban tunnels excluded), that should be tunnel Orelle at A43, long 3692 m (however, it is single-tube, 2+1 traffic, but still part of A43).
> longest montainious tunnel with double tube would be tunnel Chamoise at A40 long 3264 m..
> 
> of course, all that worths if we don't consider Mont Blanc and Frejus as motorway tunnels.


Thanks for the info, yes i was meant only motorway tunnels...


----------



## Substructure

Caluire Tunnel on Lyon's inner orbital highway is 3728m long. It may be one of the longest ring road tunnel.
See it on Google Maps


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The tunnel in the southern part of M-30 in Madrid is over 8 kilometers long. Södra länken in Stockholm is 4,7 km long.


----------



## brisavoine

^^All of you seem to have forgotten the tunnel of the A86 motorway in Greater Paris which is 10 km long.


----------



## x-type

but he asked about mountainous tunnels, not urban. there is also tunnel at La Defence at A14.


----------



## Cyril

A mere 2cm of snow in Paris and...nothing goes anymore 










around 11.30 am today.


----------



## Danielk2

Where do Google get those traffic data from??


----------



## Cyril

For France it is from www.sytadin.fr


----------



## christos-greece

brisavoine said:


> ^^All of you seem to have forgotten the tunnel of the A86 motorway in Greater Paris which is 10 km long.


Actually i was asking for tunnels in motorways far away from cities and towns, in mountains like x-type said. BTW thanks...


----------



## Coccodrillo

christos-greece said:


> Which motorway of the existing in the mountains (Alps, Massif Central etc) has the longest tunnel(s)?


The longest road tunnel entirely in France and located under a mountain is the Maurice-Lemaire, near 7 km long. It is an old railway tunnel, it was easy to convert it because it was built for two tracks. Recently it has been updated with a parallel service tunnel. However it isn' on a motorway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_Maurice-Lemaire

In the Alps there are the two tunnels shared with Italy, Fréjus (12,3 km) and Mont Blanc (11,6 km).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Tunnels_in_France

Other lists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_further_tunnels_by_length

http://www.lotsberg.net/


----------



## brisavoine

Danielk2 said:


> Where do Google get those traffic data from??


God, through Sarah Palin's intercession.


----------



## xlchris

brisavoine said:


> ^^All of you seem to have forgotten the tunnel of the A86 motorway in Greater Paris which is 10 km long.


Why is that tunnel so low?? :nuts:


----------



## brisavoine

xlchris said:


> Why is that tunnel so low?? :nuts:


----------



## Cyril

It is designed for cars only. A new lorry-only tunnel is to be built by 20xx...west of the current tunnel.


----------



## INTER88

Quelle est la taille du réseau autoroutier français?


----------



## Substructure

About 12000km. Some parts though are not considered as Autoroutes but as expressways. On this Autoroutes map, some missing parts on the A89 are such an example :










http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoroutes_of_France


----------



## christos-greece

^^ The indication of colour (black, blue) what does it mean?


----------



## Substructure

As stated in the link I provided with the map: government-owned autoroutes are in black and privately-owned autoroutes are in blue.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Substructure said:


> and privately-owned autoroutes are in blue.


Not really "owned", but more: "privately-managed"  !


----------



## christos-greece

Substructure said:


> As stated in the link I provided with the map: government-owned autoroutes are in black and privately-owned autoroutes are in blue.


Thanks for the info then...


----------



## brisavoine

Some French roads I posted in another thread. The France you don't see if you only drive on motorways. Here in the pics it's the D999 in southern France.


----------



## christos-greece

^^ The area is near Massif Central? I remember a passage of Tour de France few years ago


----------



## Penn's Woods

But, but, there's a rotary on the Francilienne ?!

And, okay, how do we get images to show up?


----------



## hofburg

you have to save the printscreen photo of google streetview and then upload somewhere.


----------



## Maxx☢Power

Or you could just link to the map:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=49.063955,2.333586&spn=0.004162,0.00825&t=k&z=17

(To get the link to what you're currently viewing just click the link in the top right corner and copy it, copying from the address bar won't work)


----------



## Penn's Woods

Maxx☢Power;56434063 said:


> Or you could just link to the map:
> 
> http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=49.063955,2.333586&spn=0.004162,0.00825&t=k&z=17
> 
> (To get the link to what you're currently viewing just click the link in the top right corner and copy it, copying from the address bar won't work)


I *think* that's what I did....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You want to use this:


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> You want to use this:


Thanks. I used the other one, misled by its promise to "embed in website." Google is evil.


----------



## Palance

Some pictures of French autoroutes between the Belgian border at Moeskroen and Disneyland Paris.










































































































































































































And back some days later to Belgium (not via Gent but via Tournai).


----------



## hofburg

nice kay: traffic was okay around paris I see.  I gotta say that there is a better view on the landscape if you travel by tgv to brussels, or maybe it's weather who a bit spoiled your photos.


----------



## christos-greece

^^ In those above photos the road is A1?


----------



## Sponsor

I don't like french directional signage. It's just... erm... ugly.


----------



## Palance

christos-greece said:


> ^^ In those above photos the road is A1?


Most of them are, but there is also som A4, A104 and A27 in it.


----------



## paF4uko

Sponsor said:


> I don't like french directional signage. It's just... erm... ugly.


I like it... Besides, the purpose of signage is to guide people, not to decorate roads.


----------



## juanico

Penn's Woods said:


> I was looking at maps last night.... I believe I've read that the piece of the Francilienne that runs north and east of DeGaulle is opening this year (or has it happened already?) Does anyone - not brisavoine, presumably! - know what will happen, numbering-wise, to the section of the A104 that will thus be cut off - from the A1/A3/N170 junction to the N2, then the section where it runs alongside the N2?


AFAIK, this section isn't done yet, last time I took it it was pretty much in the same state as shown in the satellite pictures (GE).

If this section should be done, previous cases of split highways gave us A6a/A6b/A106 ; A5a/A5b/A105 ; A15/A115 ; A4/A140...
Or maybe it will simply remain D170 between Gonnesse and A104/N2 interchange, well more likely *N*170 same as they recently classified the northern section from D104 to N104....


----------



## max9309

juanico said:


> AFAIK, this section isn't done yet, last time I took it it was pretty much in the same state as shown in the satellite pictures (GE).
> 
> If this section should be done, previous cases of split highways gave us A6a/A6b/A106 ; A5a/A5b/A105 ; A15/A115 ; A4/A140...
> Or maybe it will simply remain D170 between Gonnesse and A104/N2 interchange, well more likely *N*170 same as they recently classified the northern section from D104 to N104....


I'm not sure but this section could be named as A170 when CDG bypass will be done


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A new section of Autoroute A75 opens today near Béziers, so A75 is connected to A9. A small section is still missing between Valros and Servian, which should be opened in late 2010.


----------



## MrAkumana

ChrisZwolle said:


> A new section of Autoroute A75 opens today near Béziers, so A75 is connected to A9. A small section is still missing between Valros and Servian, which should be opened in late 2010.


Wow! Finally!

For those who don't know: this was basicly the only remaining non-motorway section to complete an alternate and shortest way of traveling from the mediteranean coast (Valencia, Barcelona, Perpignan etc) to Paris.

(it was already all motorway via Toulosse, but it's slightly longer)


----------



## x-type

that means that A9-A75 intersection is made? where exactly is it placed does somebody know?
and what is current status of A750?


----------



## max9309

x-type said:


> that means that A9-A75 intersection is made? where exactly is it placed does somebody know?
> and what is current status of A750?


yes A75 is now conected with A9, as chris said a part is missing beetwen Servian and Valros and is planned to open before summer 2011

map of the section connecting A 75 and A9 built by ASF (in french)

http://www.asf.fr/control/index.aspx?pageid=autoroute-A75-A9.12481

for A750 a section near La Taillade is being built, it will connect the 2 sections of A750, what you can see on Viamichelin is the actual situation of the motorway


----------



## brisavoine

max9309 said:


> for A750 a section near La Taillade is being built, it will connect the 2 sections of A750, what you can see on Viamichelin is the actual situation of the motorway


But the A750 still does not connect to the A9 which is stupid (I know from experience, getting lost in Montpellier trying to find the entrance of the A750 :bash.

PS: The first 20 km of the A750 after Montpellier are blissful. Very scenic and quite. A must drive!


----------



## x-type

brisavoine said:


> But the A750 still does not connect to the A9 which is stupid (I know from experience, getting lost in Montpellier trying to find the entrance of the A750 :bash.
> 
> PS: The first 20 km of the A750 after Montpellier are blissful. Very scenic and quite. A must drive!


that was my next question - is there any plan for Montpellier's western bypass? or north-eastern?


----------



## brisavoine

Some photos showing the section of the A75 opened yesterday:



















One short section still needs to be completed. It will open only in the summer of 2011 (and not late 2010). Right now, coming from the A9, the section that was opened yesteday ends abruptly after a few kilometers:










And then they are working on those last kilometers that should be completed by the summer of 2011 (picture taken yesterday):


----------



## max9309

x-type said:


> that was my next question - is there any plan for Montpellier's western bypass? or north-eastern?


maybe the western bypass will be realised in the future to provide a good connection beetwen the 2 motorways but for the rest of the ring the situation will probably remains like that for a long time


----------



## brisavoine

A rare example of concrete road in France. This is on the island of Ua Huka, in the Marquesas (_les Marquises_).


----------



## Coccodrillo

Some hairpin turns on the Tenda road:

http://maps.google.ch/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.141243,7.567778&spn=0.010425,0.019205&t=k&z=16

They have been replaced in 1882 by one of the first road tunnels in the Alps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col_de_Tende_Road_Tunnel


----------



## christos-greece

Because of watching Tour de France since 1999, indeed concrete roads in France are really rare, instead of "paved" old routes which are still existing today in some areas of North France...


----------



## Cyril

A few kilometers of concrete coating can be found on A6 motorway south of Paris near Villabé.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Few countries use concrete on non-motorways though. I don't think the tour comes on the motorway, right?


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Few countries use concrete on non-motorways though. I don't think the tour comes on the motorway, right?


maps: http://www.letour.fr/2010/TDF/COURSE/us/100/etape_par_etape.html
(That link's for the first stage, but you can get to the others....)


----------



## christos-greece

ChrisZwolle said:


> Few countries use concrete on non-motorways though. I don't think the tour comes on the motorway, right?


For examble in Belgium, in narrow small countryside roads


----------



## Timon91

A short video that I shot between Lourdes and Argelès-Gazost on the D821 last week. The position of the camera isn't optimal but it at least gives you a good view of the Pyrenees!


----------



## hofburg

I took someone to Beauvais airport so I took a few photos too.  I made a mistake and didn't go on the A16 autoroute with peage, but as it turns out, the national road paris - beauvais (D1001) is awesome. :banana:










Paris motorway network - nord









one of my favourite parts - bridge over port on Seine (A15)









for next few photos I don't know where they are - paris has to many motorways around. 



























this is where I made a mistake and turned right, apparently my gps was set to avoid toll roads.


















I could join the A16 here again


















sometimes 2+2, sometimes 2+1...




































nice road to drive. low traffic, and quite often 110 speed limit.



























... but in villages it's 1 + 1













































villages look kinda funny. 


















beauvais


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Sorry to go off topic, but how would I make that sort of map (I mean a Google map with a route drawn on it)? And what would be really cool would be if the reader could then open it so that they could zoom and so on.


----------



## hofburg

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Sorry to go off topic, but how would I make that sort of map (I mean a Google map with a route drawn on it)? And what would be really cool would be if the reader could then open it so that they could zoom and so on.


make a route, and then click on "link" in the right corner. it gives you the link to the route that you made.


----------



## christos-greece

Its easy, look at the examble Valence - Marseille:








http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4796149463/

The A7 route going directly to Lyon up to north?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Found a French toll map:

http://www.autoroutes.fr/fileadmin/user_upload/Preparez_votre_voyage/Depliant_tarifs_2010.pdf


----------



## hofburg

it's quite expensive. reims - metz 13 € for 170km for example. but Paris is toll free. :banana:


----------



## lpioe

Penn's Woods said:


> Found a French toll map:
> 
> http://www.autoroutes.fr/fileadmin/user_upload/Preparez_votre_voyage/Depliant_tarifs_2010.pdf


Mont-Blanc and Frejus €35.10 :shocked: :shocked:


----------



## lambersart2005

the french tolls are really frightening... but nevertheless, they have top-shape autoroutes, you see where all the money goes

another thing... Isn't the northern approach to paris impressing? Passing Charles de Gaulle, you drive a long, long time through the outskirts virtuelly seeing nothing and then at the very end, you enter the super-urban depressed part of A1 near Port de la Chapelle - great :cheers: Althogh, at the interchange with BP, I cannot help me but always feels a bit like eastern Europe with the towers ;-)



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## Timon91

A64 Tarbes-Pau

A set of pictures I shot on the 10th of july of this year during my holiday in Southern France.

A map:










The pictures:

1. We entered the motorway just west of Tarbes. This is directly after the péage.



2. Entering the motorway.



3. 



4. Nice road 



5. Pau is another 39 km.



6. Not much traffic today.



7. Zoomed in on a curve; roadworks ahead.



8. Luckily there was not much going on.



9. 



10. We're going uphill now.



11. 



12. Entering the département Pyrenées-Atlantiques.



13. And because of that also the région Aquitaine.



14. Rest area Pyrenées in 2 km.



15. 



16. Gas prices at the gas station at rest area Pyrenées.



17. Aire des Pyrenées ahead.



18. The exit to this rest area.



19. 



20. Some bushes in the middle of the motorway.



21. 



22.



23. Viaduct.



24. Another one.



25. Goin' down again.



26. Just too late.



27. The hill, you have a nice view here.



28. The view after the curve.



29. Exit ahead.



30. We're getting close to Pau.



31. However, we're going off at the next exit.



32. Another 12 km to our exit. I very much liked that signs indicating the distance to the next exit.



33. Distance sign. San Sebastián is used as the main control city here. I haven't seen any country ovals in France 



34. 



35. 



36. First another Aire.



37. I also liked the distance sign indicating the next rest area.



38. The exit to the Aire.



39. 



40. Information for winter tourists.



41. 



42. Our exit in 2 km.



43. We follow "Pau-centre".



44. Exit sign.



45. The exit itself.



That's it for now, I hope you liked it!


----------



## CNGL

^^ :lol:. Saragossa is signed until the border and then it isn't signed until the start of Huesca's bypass. French things...
Edit: "Le Somport" is actually the Spanish Candanchú ski resort.


----------



## CNGL

I like this sign with my hometown signed. I hope they sign Pau on A-23 near Jaca when finished. (It's near finished, but on hold hno


----------



## Carldiff

It's a beautiful part of France! I used to live in Bordeaux and have hitchhiked all over the Pyrenées, can't wait to go back!


----------



## hofburg

nice and clear photos Timon91. I'm going to Tarbes airport next week.


----------



## Timon91

Thanks! I've seen Tarbes Airport from the N21 twice this holiday. Didn't really seem like a large airport to me :lol:

Close to Tarbes Airport the N21 is currently widened to 2×2, by the way.


----------



## Timon91

A64 Tarbes-Toulouse

This is the second set of pictures of my holiday, and the last set of the A64. 

A map of the route. Tarbes-Toulouse is about 150 km.










The pics:

1. There we go!



2. Viaduct.



3. It was a pretty cloudy day.



4. A lorry. I haven't seen many of them on this route.



5. Just too late unfortunately.



6. A couple of viaducts.



7. Exit Auch.



8. 



9. Nice viaduct.



10. 



11. Local exit.



12. Toulouse and Foix are the control cities on this route. After exit Foix only Toulouse remains.



13. Exit Foix is the next one.



14. It's a bit busier over here.



15. Zoomed.



16. 



17. Kilometermarker 213.



18.



19. Péage in 1500 meters.



20. Traffic is usually well informed about an upcoming péage so there's enough time left to brake down.



21. Stripes warning you to brake down.



22. The péage.



23. Pay!



24. The exit of péages is usually a large "field" of asphalt slowly narrowing down to the motorway. This can cause chaotic situations where accidents easily can occur. 



25. We're on the motorway again.



26. Wanna go to Andorra? Follow Foix!



27. This section is toll-free. Toll-free sections logically have more exits and tend to be a little busier.



28. River. I'm not sure which one it is but I think that it's the Garonne.



29. Exit Foix in 1 km.



30. Traffic for Toulouse still has to follow the A64.



31. 



32. 



33. Next exit ahead.



34. The exit. Exits in France tend to have very short exit/entry lanes like the A4 in Germany, east of Bad Hersfeld.



35. Unsharp picture, but Toulouse is still 62 km.



36. Another exit.



37. On the map it is also visible that the A64 is completely straight in this section.



38. Because of the bushes it's not visible, but there's a traffic jam on the other side.



39. The jam was about 5 km long and it was caused by a small accident.



40. Still very straight; Toulouse 52 km.



41. Here the short exit lane is well visible.



42. The landscape isn't very exiting around here.



43. 



44. Another exit.



45. Small building next to the motorway.



46. Aire.



47. A lorry with problems.



48. 



49. 



50. Exit Muret.



51. 



52. Look! A real exit-lane! 



53. We're approaching Toulouse.



54. Another péage. We didn't get a ticket over here, as it's only a péage in between two exits.



55. Péage ahead.



56. 



57. You have to look well which lane to take as there are several different ways to pay the toll. We've paid the toll using creditcard, except for this time. From the way south, my parents still remembered that it was €1,70 so we had already prepared that  I took the train south so I couldn't remember it  



58. The street lights are okay.



59. It becomes 2×3.



60. 



61. The end of the A64 is approaching. Here you have to choose whether you take the inner or the outer ringroad of Toulouse. I've hardly seen any roadnumbers on Toulouse's ringroad, btw. 



62. We follow Paris/Bordeaux.



63. Bye bye A64!



That's it again. I hope you enjoyed it!


----------



## christos-greece

Talking about French tolls few posts above, which - what is the moderate price of the tolls nowdays in most of France's autoroutes?


----------



## max9309

note that the section beetwen Tarbes est and Capvern is toll free, even if you don't remark this if you continue on the motorway, cause it was built by the French state back in the days
also the A 64 from Martres Tolosane to Toulouse is so straight cause this section is a motorway upgrade of the old RN 117


----------



## hofburg

Timon91 said:


> I hope you enjoyed it!


we did.  but motorway itself is a bit boring. It becomes interesting before Toulouse.


----------



## Timon91

That's right. IMO the most interesting landscape en route from Toulouse to the Netherlands was on the A20 near Limoges. Quite a hilly area. I also have pics of this section, but I still have to upload them.


----------



## hofburg

what the difference between italic and normal font on signs?


----------



## Minato ku

The normal front are city name while the italic are district or area of the city.
Le Mirail or Empalot are districts of Toulouse, the same for centre that means center.


----------



## christos-greece

^^ The same goes to traditional, touristic places in France? About using the Italic font...


----------



## Timon91

A620 Toulouse

As we're on a new page now, I decided to post a small set of pictures of the A620 around Toulouse, the western part of the ringroad.

A map:










The pictures:

1. 2×3.



2. No jams, so a bit oversized clock 



3. White signs.



4. Accident on the other side.



5. Luckily it seems like nothing serious has happened.



6. It has caused a traffic jam though.



7. 



8. Passing under a viaduct.



9. Exit to Blagnac Airport. Six years ago I went to Toulouse by plane, it was the last time that I was there.



10.



11. We follow the direction Montauban/Bordeaux.



12. Leaving the A620 for the A62.



That's it, hope you liked it!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've read somewhere Toulouse is the most American city of Europe due to suburban sprawl and massive shopping malls.


----------



## CNGL

But it has an historic core, while american cities don't have .
And I want to go to Tarbes (Which is twinned with Huesca ) and Tournefeuille (And my art of mapping, as well to Olot...)


----------



## Penn's Woods

CNGL said:


> But it has an historic core, while american cities don't have .


Huh?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Re the A620 photos, an observation and a question:

The comment -
If I had time, I'd look for the post on another thread where Chris said, find me a place in France where route numbers aren't shown. Well, it looks like the A620 is not posted as such - it's the Périphérique and E9. Also, a lot of those exits (not just from the A620, but from the A64, from other autoroutes I've seen photos of...) must lead to roads that are numbered, at least as departmentals. (In a couple of cases, I've seen signs with a bunch of destinations and a European number sitting on top. I've got to believe that where there's a European number, there's a domestic one too.) In the US, you'd get those route numbers as well as a town or too: Americans driving in France be advised - you can't just look at a map and say "I'll exit the A-whatever at the D-whatever" - the "D-whatever" is unlikely to be marked as such. At least European countries number exits now; most of them weren't doing that in the '80s, when I started paying attention to this stuff....

The question -
The blue border on certain white signs on the A620: what's that mean?

Nice job on the photos, by the way!


----------



## rpc08

CNGL said:


> ^^ :lol:. Saragossa is signed until the border and then it isn't signed until the start of Huesca's bypass. French things...


Hum...in fact, it's a Spanish thing. I think it is understandable because Saragossa and Pau are the control cities in the axe A-23/N 134. The error here occurs right in the border, because in the Spanish side Saragossa is not signed, neither Huesca (both signed in France) but just Jaca – Huesca and Saragossa are only signed in Jaca’s _bypass_.



Penn's Woods said:


> The question -
> The blue border on certain white signs on the A620: what's that mean?


Well, I think it means that that exit is an exit of the _périphérique_.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^So it might be the actual name of the exit (like the "portes" on the Paris Périphérique and some others). I hadn't thought of that.


----------



## CNGL

rpc08 said:


> Hum...in fact, it's a Spanish thing. I think it is understandable because Saragossa and Pau are the control cities in the axe A-23/N 134. The error here occurs right in the border, because in the Spanish side Saragossa is not signed,* neither Huesca* (both signed in France) but just Jaca – Huesca and Saragossa are only signed in Jaca’s _bypass_.


No. Huesca is signed all the way from South of Pau on E07.


----------



## christos-greece

^^ I have seen that on map; i think that E07 its not a motorway (2x2 lanes) but a single road


----------



## juanico

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^So it might be the actual name of the exit (like the "portes" on the Paris Périphérique and some others). I hadn't thought of that.


Yes it is. The names in capital letters in those blue-bordered signs are indeed the neighbourhoods served by the next exit : Empalot, Ponts-Jumeaux, Purpan etc. are all neighbourhoods of Toulouse.

Signage on the western bypass (A620) is rather unique, looks very local with neighbourhoods directions and no road numbers. On the eastern bypass (A61/A62) it is standard signage though.


----------



## bogdymol

Romanian article about French motorway network expansion:


> *France will build another 900 km of motorway*
> 
> French Ministry of Ecology wants to build yet Hexagon 900 km highway linking the existing sections.
> 
> After 13 years break, the French Ministry of Ecology proposes a new project aimed at building 900 kilometers of highway in Hexagon. Do not talk about a new motorway linking France from end to end, but rather to adjust the existing sections meet new security standards.
> 
> Also, the 900 km will help to streamline traffic, fewer bottlenecks occurring in these areas and reduce transportation costs. In this project, the 900 km will be distributed in over 19 sectors, size of new sections ranging from 9-160 miles.


source


----------



## ChrisZwolle

France is whack.

First, they say they won't build a single new kilometer of motorway. Then, they announce several corridor projects, after that, they state most projects will be canceled or postponed. And now, they want to build another 900 kilometers of motorway?

Make up your mind, France!


----------



## Penn's Woods

List of new sections here:

http://www.leblogauto.com/2010/07/la-france-va-construire-900-nouveaux-kilometres-d’autoroutes.html


----------



## juanico

@ Chris: actually, the Government said it wouldn't build new motorways, not that it wouldn't build a single km of motorway. It has always been clear that it would complete existing ones where needed and build several bypasses in some cities, many of them being listed in the link above my message.


----------



## Penn's Woods

How about "autoroutes concédées"? - how does the financing on those work? If there is a question of whether 900 km of new autoroute is going to be built or not because of the government's financial difficulties and priorities, are autoroutes concédées affected by that too? (Or are the government's finances the issue here?)

More generally, what is the process with those - I assume the government decides that an autoroute needs de be built along a given corridor - maybe they even decide the route number - and there's a bidding process to determine who gets to build and operate it?

(For those unfamiliar with the term "autoroute concédées", I'm talking about the highways operated by private, or partially-private, companies like Autoroutes du Sud de France, which are generally speaking toll roads. I'm not sure what a good English translation for "concédées" would be - maybe "franchised.")


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I always wondering what happens with my tolls in France. Is it just financing some CEO's 7-digit paycheck? Some concessionaires are barely building new motorways. Granted, toll roads are always in excellent condition, however, having toll roads should make the French government also able to fund much more non-toll projects as they don't have the financial burden of building and maintaining most of the non-urban Autoroute network.


----------



## max9309

Penn's Woods said:


> How about "autoroutes concédées"? - how does the financing on those work? If there is a question of whether 900 km of new autoroute is going to be built or not because of the government's financial difficulties and priorities, are autoroutes concédées affected by that too? (Or are the government's finances the issue here?)
> 
> More generally, what is the process with those - I assume the government decides that an autoroute needs de be built along a given corridor - maybe they even decide the route number - and there's a bidding process to determine who gets to build and operate it?
> 
> (For those unfamiliar with the term "autoroute concédées", I'm talking about the highways operated by private, or partially-private, companies like Autoroutes du Sud de France, which are generally speaking toll roads. I'm not sure what a good English translation for "concédées" would be - maybe "franchised.")


I know that for some project the governement has to do some "gifts" to the concessionnaire to have the motorway built, for example i'ts the case for the A5 project towards Vesoul, where the governement will build Port Sur Saonne bypass (100 M€ planned in the next PDMI) which will be integrated in the autoroute


----------



## Suburbanist

Does anyone have updated on the A65 between Langon and Pau? My Michelin atlas says "Open 11/2010".

Is it for real? Usually Michelin doesn't put that unrealistic dates, and only releases them once the road is in its final stages of completion!

With this motorway, a third fast link between Spain and France comes a bit close (pity that Spain had to postpone some works on their Huesca-Jaca-Somport sector), but I guess pushing the motorway toward the Somport tunnel will be quite a challenge.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

French Wikipedia isn't sure, they say either december 2010 (seems optimistic) or the first half of 2011.


----------



## brisavoine

Penn's Woods said:


> The blue border on certain white signs on the A620: what's that mean?


It's just the name of the neighborhood that the exit leads to.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've read somewhere Toulouse is the most American city of Europe due to suburban sprawl and massive shopping malls.


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=900248
+
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1009823


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> I always wondering what happens with my tolls in France. Is it just financing some CEO's 7-digit paycheck?


Pretty much, especially since Sarkozy shamefully sold the motorways to these concessionnaire companies for a cheap price (i.e. the companies will now own these motorways for ever, instead of the 30 or 50 years concession that was initially agreed after which time the motorways were supposed to be handed back to the French state and the tolls were supposed to disappear).


ChrisZwolle said:


> having toll roads should make the French government also able to fund much more non-toll projects as they don't have the financial burden of building and maintaining most of the non-urban Autoroute network.


The motorways that remain to be built would have little traffic, so they would not be profitable. The deal between the French state and the private concessionaires was you build those unprofitable motorways and in exchange we extend your concession on the profitable ones, so the profitable motorways pay for the unprofitable ones. It was called "adossement". It worked fine like that for many years, but then suddenly a few years ago Brussels said no, you can't have deals like that, adossement is against European competition, bla bla bla, so the system had to be abandonned, and the unprofitable motorways will probably never be built (like Toulouse-Mende-Lyon... we'll be 100 y/o before they build it). Thank you European Commission!! Some days I really wish the EU didn't exist...


----------



## brisavoine

Suburbanist said:


> Does anyone have updated on the A65 between Langon and Pau? My Michelin atlas says "Open 11/2010".


It should open in the summer of 2011.

This motorways was totally unnecessary, it will have almost no traffic. The Toulouse-Lyon motorway would have made much more sense, but a local political baron from Pau, François Bayrou, candidate in the 2007 presidential elections, insisted so much on that motorway, along with the president of the Aquitaine regional council, that eventually the French government gave in and accepted to allow this motorway to proceed. On the other hand, politicians in Toulouse and Lyon have never really harrassed the French government (the Socialist authorities in Toulouse, both at the city and regional level, are anti-car, pro-train, as if train was going to solve all our problems), so the Toulouse-Lyon motorway still remains something of a dream for our great-grand-children. Meanwhile in Spain they waste EU funds to build stupid unnecessary motorways that go from nowhere to nowhere (I'm thinking about the provinces of Murcia and Alicante in particular, although there are other examples on the Castillan meseta), but the 2nd and 5th largest French metropolitan areas are still not linked by motorway. What a wonderful world we live in. :lol:


----------



## hofburg

brisavoine said:


> It should open in the summer of 2011.
> 
> This motorways was totally unnecessary, it will have almost no traffic. The Toulouse-Lyon motorway would have made much more sense, but a local political baron from Pau, François Bayrou, candidate in the 2007 presidential elections, insisted so much on that motorway, along with the president of the Aquitaine regional council, that eventually the French government gave in and accepted to allow this motorway to proceed. On the other hand, politicians in Toulouse and Lyon have never really harrassed the French government (the Socialist authorities in Toulouse, both at the city and regional level, are anti-car, pro-train, as if train was going to solve all our problems), so the Toulouse-Lyon motorway still remains something of a dream for our great-grand-children. Meanwhile in Spain they waste EU funds to build stupid unnecessary motorways that go from nowhere to nowhere (I'm thinking about the provinces of Murcia and Alicante in particular, although there are other examples on the Castillan meseta), but the 2nd and 5th largest French metropolitan areas are still not linked by motorway. What a wonderful world we live in. :lol:


well Toulouse is still waiting for its LGV, maybe that's why they are pro-train? and also, it's quite far away from lyon and paris.

now google maps puts you via Nimes Toulouse-Lyon (560km), more direct connection would be 100 km shorter. is that much?


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> well Toulouse is still waiting for its LGV, maybe that's why they are pro-train?


No, they are pro-train for ideological reasons. It has been like that since the second half of the 1990s. The population of the Toulouse metropolitan area is growing by almost 2% a year, which is enormous, the fastest growth of any European metropolitan area, on par with the high growing US metro areas, and yet they haven't built any motorway or other major road in the metropolitan area since the 1990s, and nothing is currently planned. The big Toulouse bypass project has been abandonned. The Arc-en-Ciel ring road (D980) will never be completed. The transport situation in Greater Toulouse is going to become nightmarish pretty quickly. It's already quite bad (totally congested Périphérique during rush hours).


hofburg said:


> now google maps puts you via Nimes Toulouse-Lyon (560km), more direct connection would be 100 km shorter. is that much?


The A9 and A7 are saturated, they can barely cope with the traffic, so yes it would make a big difference.


----------



## hofburg

and which are these ideological reasons? because I don't see why socialists don't want any roads  (well they are normally stopping the development, but anyway...?)


----------



## max9309

i'ts a pitty that Toulouse-Lyon is not planed to be finished soon but things are moving slowly
all the sections between Albi and Rodez are now planed in the actual PDMI (road modernisation plan) so we can hope a modern link to Rodez for 2020, even if the Albi bypass problem isn't solved
farther east works on Le Puy bypass have started, it must be opened for 2014


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> and which are these ideological reasons?


a- they are allied with the Greens who are anti-car
b- there's a strong Left-wing pro-train lobby, linked to the SNCF which is a Left-wing thing controlled by Left-wing unions
c- the Midi-Pyrénées authorities are close to Gayssot, the Communist minister in charge of transports when Jospin was prime-minister in the late 1990s (only in France you find a Communist in charge of transports!). Gayssot supported the SNCF a lot, and blocked all sorts of motorway projects, while pushing for stupid train projects such as keeping some useless train lines in the Massif Central that have few customers if any.

The drama in this country is there is never any cost-benefit analysis. Everything is always driven by ideology. So some politicians fight for the survival of little used but costly train lines in the Massif Central, and everybody regard them as heros for having fought against big bad capitalist forces for the survival of those train lines (David vs. Goliath, it's always very popular in France to play the little David). And at the same time some new roads that are really needed are not built, for example in the suburbs of Toulouse.

Between 1999 and 2007, the population of the Toulouse metropolitan area increased from 964,914 to 1,118,472 people, yet no motorway or major road was built in the metro area since 1999. The population in the metro area is soon going to reach 1.5 million, yet nothing is planned in terms of new road infrastructure. The result is traffic in the 1990s in the Toulouse metro area was alright, then in the 2000s it became difficult, with often some traffic jams, and in the 2010s it should become as bad as Paris, with big traffic jams all the time, and experts say if no new infrastructure is built, by 2020 there will be permanent gridlock. We're heading for the wall and local politicians seem happy about it, living with the delusion that the 2 tramway lines and the arrival of the TGV will solve everything.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You know, sometimes I'm under the impression politicians think all voters are Greenpeace activists or something...

Sure people want a sustainable future, but that does not mean creating a gridlock to push people into collective forms of transportation. 

These people think people are eager to dump their cars and accept traveling by train or something. Politicians often lack reality and live in their own little world.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> Politicians often lack reality and live in their own little world.


Of course, they have official air-conditioned cars with chauffeurs and private parking space. They don't know what's the life of normal people. They never have to take overcrowded and ultra-hot métros or buses. The most ridiculous thing I saw was last month, I was reading an article about the new subway in Toulouse, and believe it or not, despite its southern location and very hot summers (average maximum temperature from June to September is in the upper 20s, with very often days above 30), the new subway is not air conditioned, the trains are not air conditioned, so it can be quite uncomfortable inside during the summer. They interviewed the guy in charge of the subway and asked him why they didn't install air-conditioning in the trains, he replied: "Oh, but neither Paris, nor Lille, nor Lyon have air-conditioning in their subways." :nuts: :bash:


----------



## x-type

^^
you mean the subway trains are not air-conditioned?


----------



## brisavoine

No, they are not. With the lame excuse that they are not air-conditioned either in the much more temperate cities of Paris, Lille, and Lyon, whose subways are way older than that of Toulouse.


----------



## hofburg

brisavoine said:


> a- they are allied with the Greens who are anti-car
> b- there's a strong Left-wing pro-train lobby, linked to the SNCF which is a Left-wing thing controlled by Left-wing unions
> c- the Midi-Pyrénées authorities are close to Gayssot, the Communist minister in charge of transports when Jospin was prime-minister in the late 1990s (only in France you find a Communist in charge of transports!). Gayssot supported the SNCF a lot, and blocked all sorts of motorway projects, while pushing for stupid train projects such as keeping some useless train lines in the Massif Central that have few customers if any.
> 
> The drama in this country is there is never any cost-benefit analysis. Everything is always driven by ideology. So some politicians fight for the survival of little used but costly train lines in the Massif Central, and everybody regard them as heros for having fought against big bad capitalist forces for the survival of those train lines (David vs. Goliath, it's always very popular in France to play the little David). And at the same time some new roads that are really needed are not built, for example in the suburbs of Toulouse.
> 
> Between 1999 and 2007, the population of the Toulouse metropolitan area increased from 964,914 to 1,118,472 people, yet no motorway or major road was built in the metro area sinThe drama in this country is there is never any cost-benefit analysis. Everything is always driven by ideology.ce 1999. The population in the metro area is soon going to reach 1.5 million, yet nothing is planned in terms of new road infrastructure. The result is traffic in the 1990s in the Toulouse metro area was alright, then in the 2000s it became difficult, with often some traffic jams, and in the 2010s it should become as bad as Paris, with big traffic jams all the time, and experts say if no new infrastructure is built, by 2020 there will be permanent gridlock. We're heading for the wall and local politicians seem happy about it, living with the delusion that the 2 tramway lines and the arrival of the TGV will solve everything.


that's too bad.



> The drama in this country is there is never any cost-benefit analysis. Everything is always driven by ideology.


well, I'm sure that's not only the case in France.

but it seems that railways are always more to the left. don't know why, but for example, slovenian railways are almost run by a syndicat!
and if I count strikes in Ratp and Sncf in Paris in last few years, it makes me think that it's the same situation here! 



x-type said:


> ^^
> you mean the subway trains are not air-conditioned?


welcome to Paris!  that's why I don't use subway anymore. but not only trains; buses, tramways, administration buildings... that's why it's great to sit on TGV...


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> that's why I don't use subway anymore.


Then what do you use?


----------



## hofburg

car. once a week... I don't need to move every day as I live where I study.  well if I'am honest, for short distances I take metro but 4 stations max.


----------



## brisavoine

The most dangerous motorway in France.


----------



## x-type

why?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Probably:


----------



## TohrAlkimista

brisavoine said:


> The most dangerous motorway in France.


Where is it? Côte d'Azur?

P.S.
Btw, great signature.


----------



## x-type

TohrAlkimista said:


> Where is it? Côte d'Azur?
> 
> P.S.
> Btw, great signature.


no, i guess it is some overseas teritory of France


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Probably on Reunion.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> Probably:


Yes. There are about 20 km of cliffs along the motorway that have the inconvenient habit of falling on cars from times to times. Several dead people each time. As a result they plan to build a very costly motorway out in the sea, and abandon the one below the cliffs.


----------



## christos-greece

> The most dangerous motorway in France...


From the terrain should be located in Cote d' Azur and probably near Nice


----------



## treichard

Are the autoroute numbers A103, A186, and A313 posted on guide signs or roadside markers, or are these three numbers only for admin. use like A551 and A552? I was searching the web without success looking for photos to answer this question.


----------



## max9309

treichard said:


> Are the autoroute numbers A103, A186, and A313 posted on guide signs or roadside markers, or are these three numbers only for admin. use like A551 and A552? I was searching the web without success looking for photos to answer this question.


these 3 autoroutes are existing and their number is not only use by admin like A 551 A 552
but afaik there are not roadsigns markers, i know that there are killometric points on A 186 but for the other i don't know, maybe with google street view you can see that 

old sign at the entry of A 186
http://maps.google.fr/maps?hl=fr&ie...rpCavYww9LxJnSRG6t3-Lw&cbp=12,276.39,,0,-9.13


----------



## Maxx☢Power

christos-greece said:


> From the terrain should be located in Cote d' Azur and probably near Nice


Definitely not on the CdA; the A8 isn't that close to the sea anywhere and the landscape/vegetation looks very different.


----------



## treichard

max9309 said:


> these 3 autoroutes are existing and their number is not only use by admin like A 551 A 552
> but afaik there are not roadsigns markers, i know that there are killometric points on A 186 but for the other i don't know, maybe with google street view you can see that
> 
> old sign at the entry of A 186
> http://maps.google.fr/maps?hl=fr&ie...rpCavYww9LxJnSRG6t3-Lw&cbp=12,276.39,,0,-9.13


Thanks, Max9309. Unfortunately, Street View doesn't cover these 3 routes sufficiently. I am curious if a general traveler could figure out these route numbers solely by seeing signs near or along the routes but without needing to use maps or web resources nor by contacting the concessionaire, etc.


----------



## max9309

the shortest French autoroute is just 400 m long and consists of just a bridge
the A623 is located in the south-east of Toulouse near Labege 
ilt was originally 1,2 km long but 800m were downgraded intot a Departementale in may of this year 

here's a map, in blue the actual A623 in red the downgraded part


----------



## brisavoine

A very Catholic country France. The Revolutionaries must be turning in their graves. :lol:


----------



## Timon91

A20 Montauban-Châteauroux

The complete album on Flickr (137 pics) can be found here.

A map of the route, to begin with (app. 370 km):










A selection of 40 pics:

1. Still A62, just before entering the A20.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

2. The A20 is quite annoying in the sense that the major control city is Paris, which is still quite far away. Normally the control city is still 250 km, and slowly but surely counts down to zero. Here it's still a long way to Paris and it remains a long way for a significant part of the A20.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

3. Some roadworks coming up. 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

4. With a good zoom it's a pleasure to photograph this motorway 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

5. Alternatives for the tolled motorway on the signs.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

6. Paris is less than 600 km now. We're making progress.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

7. It's a bit hilly here, but further north there are more hills.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

8. Entering the motorway after a short break.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

9. Sign that indicates the end of a tunnel. The only other European country where I've seen this is the Czech Republic.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

10. Two viaducts shortly after each other. The road quality is excellent, btw 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

11. Cahors.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

12. Peaceful 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

13. A short tunnel. It's barely visible, but both the "tunnel"-sign and the "end of tunnel"-sign are visible in this picture.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

14. 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

15. The D49 runs on this viaduct.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

16. Crossing a valley.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

17. Zoom 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

18. Nice overview. 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

19. Down and up.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

20. Péage.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

21. Telephone cables.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

22. Paris 466 km.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

23. The A89 ahead. The part to Clermond-Ferrand is not directly connected to the A20.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

24. Shortly together.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

25. Traffic to Lyon and Clermond-Ferrand exit here.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

26. Zoomed in on a small valley.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

27. Zoomed in completely.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

28. This is how it looks like in reality.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

29. Paris 413 km.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

30. Exit 41.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

31. Small traffic jam ahead.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

32. Near Limoges. The traffic jam started just around the corner, quite a dangerous position. It delayed us for about 10 minutes, no big deal.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

33. Enough time to photograph this sign 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

34. Weird street lights, though I like the orange  even though this was the day after the World Cup final 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

35. Slovene-like signs 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

36. Yep, really Slovenian  Only 100 km left for today.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

37. Goin' up.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

38. 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

39. About 20 km left for us today. I haven't made many pictures due to failing batteries 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

40. Near Châteauroux. The last picture for today.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

That's it again, hope you liked it! :cheers:


----------



## hofburg

very nice pictures! you're a good photographer.  zoom is great, but has also some cons IMO. motorway looks more curvy and lines are shorter. 

I don't understand that slovene thing though.  what did you have in mind?


----------



## Morsue

Very nice pictures, and I also like how you put a little story to each one. Makes the series so much more pleasurable!


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> I don't understand that slovene thing though.  what did you have in mind?


I think he meant that your motorways are as clean and neat as in France.


----------



## Timon91

Thank you all 

About the Slovene thing: too many destinations on one sign is what I consider Slovene, as you see it a lot over there. One of the only bad things that I can name about Slovene motorways, by the way 

@hofburg: By the way, about the zoom: look at your avatar


----------



## Morsue

Timon91 said:


> Thank you all
> 
> About the Slovene thing: *too many destinations* on one sign is what I consider Slovene, as you see it a lot over there. One of the only bad things that I can name about Slovene motorways, by the way
> 
> @hofburg: By the way, about the zoom: look at your avatar


Have you never seen a Spanish roadsign?? :nuts:


----------



## hofburg

brisavoine said:


> I think he meant that your motorways are as clean and neat as in France.


flattering 



Timon91 said:


> Thank you all
> 
> About the Slovene thing: too many destinations on one sign is what I consider Slovene, as you see it a lot over there. One of the only bad things that I can name about Slovene motorways, by the way
> 
> @hofburg: By the way, about the zoom: look at your avatar


there are a lot indeed.  but seems like France cares about its cities or towns.  oh, my avatar is from panoramio, so it's not my resposibility. 

funny name La Souterraine. something particular about that, brisavoine?


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> funny name La Souterraine. something particular about that, brisavoine?












The name was first recorded as Villa Subterranea. The name comes from a large Gallo-Roman crypt that has existed there since Antiquity. It was used as a temple in Antiquity and is now below the town's parish church.




























Et en prime, a pre-WW2 picture.


----------



## Timon91

^^My parents stayed in La Souterraine on their way to southern France 



Morsue said:


> Have you never seen a Spanish roadsign?? :nuts:


Hardly. I've only been in Barcelona where I haven't seen many motorways (citytrip).


----------



## Morsue

Timon91 said:


> Hardly. I've only been in Barcelona where I haven't seen many motorways (citytrip).


Ok, if you saw one you wouldn't call a sign with a lot of destinations a Slovene sign. Check out the Spanish motorway thread.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Morsue said:


> Have you never seen a Spanish roadsign?? :nuts:


The problem in España is the amount of road numbers, not the number of destinations imo.


----------



## Morsue

ChrisZwolle said:


> The problem in España is the amount of road numbers, not the number of destinations imo.


Yes, quite right. But in the end they leave the driver quite confused after not having had the time to read it all.


----------



## Timon91

A20 Châteauroux-Vierzon

This is the next morning.

A map, to begin with. This stretch is about 56 km:










The pics (17 of them):

1. There we go again!


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

2. The road is pretty straight, but not flat.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

3. 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

4. Which is very well visible over here. Paris is still 213 km.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

5. Nice view here!


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

6. Exit 10.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

7. Sort of an S-curve.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

8. The contralight doesn't make the pictures more beautiful 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

9. The road is still excellent though 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

10. Not much traffic today. 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

11. We're getting closer to Vierzon.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

12. Which is where the A20 ends in the A71.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

13. It's still quite early.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

14. River "Le Cher".


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

15. 


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

16. Later on we'll follow Orléans/Paris.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

17. Which is over here. This is the end of the A20.


A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr

That's it again, hope you liked it :cheers:


----------



## brisavoine

Timon91 said:


> 4. Which is very well visible over here. Paris is still 213 km.
> 
> 
> A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr
> 
> 5. Nice view here!
> 
> 
> A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr


You've arrived in Northern France. Flat, flat flat. Boring!

When I was a kid and we drove from Southern to Northern France, everytime we passed Argenton-sur-Creuse it suddenly felt like a foreign country to me.

By the way, do you know why the main road from Châteauroux to Vierzon goes through Vatan instead of the much larger town of Issoudun? That's because when the royal highway was built in the 18th century, the people of Issoudun refused to have the royal highway go through their town (apparently they thought it would bring vagrants, dangerous travellers, and, maxima horror, modern philosophers to their town). Talk of a backward mentality!


----------



## Timon91

^^http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bienvenue_chez_les_Ch'tis


----------



## christos-greece

The terrain around this road which it is probably new, recently completed (?) its very nice

About this road north goes to Orleans, Paris... south goes to Toulouse?


----------



## Minato ku

Timon91 said:


> 16. Later on we'll follow Orléans/Paris.
> 
> 
> A20 in France by Timon91, on Flickr


I was born in Bourges.



brisavoine said:


> You've arrived in Northern France. Flat, flat flat. Boring!
> 
> When I was a kid and we drove from Southern to Northern France, everytime we passed Argenton-sur-Creuse it suddenly felt like a foreign country to me.


Northern France ? You mean Central France.
There is a big gap between the south and the north, a gap called "Centre".


----------



## brisavoine

For someone from Toulouse, Northern France starts at Brive. And in terms of landscape it really starts to feel very northern and exotic after Argenton-sur-Creuse.


----------



## Minato ku

^^ So I cannot imagine how it is for Amiens, Rouen, Calais or Lille. :lol:

Some pictures I took on the A13.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Minato ku said:


> ^^ So I cannot imagine how it is for Amiens, Rouen, Calais or Lille. :lol:


The low countries must feel like the north pole to him :lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

*Linking A50 and A57 in Toulon*

Last time I was driving from Pamplona (Spain) to Milan (Italy) I decided to take the coast route because it was winter and there had been strong snowstorms near Clémont-Ferrand. Then, because the highways were not congested at all, I took a deviation: after Aix-en-Provence, instead of going over the A8 to Italy I took the A52, A50 and A57 back to A8. Very worthwhile detour, nice curves and so.

However, something bothered my profoundly: there was a street connection between A50 an A57 in Toulon.

Any planes to build a tunnel or elevated highway connecting the two highways there?


----------



## Coccodrillo

There is a tunnel under construction under Toulon. The first tube (Italy>Marseille) is opened since a few years (2006?), the second tube for the other direction (around 3 km in length) will open in a few years (2012?).


----------



## Minato ku

The first tube (east to west or A57 to A50) opened in 2002.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I was travelling eastward, that is why I didn't find any tunnel then.


----------



## brisavoine

The southern tunnel (west>>>east) ran into many problems. The soil is much more complex that what they had anticipated, they have to bore the tunnel below some buildings in downtown Toulon, part of the tunnel's ceiling collapsed, some buildings above were damaged, there were also some severe water leaks, so they had to stop all work for many months. It's a bit like what happened to the Big Dig in Boston. Now work on the tunnel was finally resumed last month, and the tunnel should open to traffic in mid-2013, God willing. Costs have doubled. The 2 km tunnel should cost 400 million euros in the end.


----------



## christos-greece

Minato ku said:


> The first tube (east to west or A57 to A50) opened in 2002.


And the location of that tunnel is in Marseille or near Nice?


----------



## x-type

christos-greece said:


> And the location of that tunnel is in Marseille or near Nice?


Toulon, honey bunny. it's written


----------



## brisavoine

Dante's vision of France tonight, before you fall into the arms of Morpheus.

Une route en Enfer.









Une route au Paradis.









Good night! :goodnight


----------



## Morsue

^^ Location, location, location?

Really beautiful pictures, especially the first one. Just after a fire?


----------



## Suburbanist

Guadaloupe?


----------



## brisavoine

Morsue said:


> Just after a fire?


No.


Suburbanist said:


> Guadaloupe?


No.


----------



## max9309

The N 164 is planned to be fully widened to 2x2 
Gouarrec bypass opened 1 or 2 momths ago
St Caradec bypass and one section beetwen Pleyben and Ty Blaise are curently in construction

for others section i supose some are planned in the actual PDMI (road modernisation plan) 

roadworks for St Brieuc southern bypass has started but this bypass will be used only for local traffic, the future A81 will still pass by the north


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A4 St. Avold - Strasbourg*

A photo set of the easternmost leg of the Autoroute A4 from St. Avold to Strasbourg. I published the Reims - St. Avold leg in the spring of 2010, see here

*Click here for all 76 pictures*

route:









1. 

ch 161 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. 

ch 164 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.

ch 165 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

ch 166 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5. ticket

ch 168 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6. 

ch 171 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

ch 172 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

ch 174 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

ch 177 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

ch 178 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

ch 185 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

ch 188 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

ch 189 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

ch 194 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

ch 197 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.

ch 200 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.

ch 201 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.

ch 202 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.

ch 204 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.

ch 206 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21.

ch 208 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22.

ch 209 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

23.

ch 210 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

24.

ch 215 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

25.

ch 216 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

26.

ch 217 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

27.

ch 219 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

28.

ch 220 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

29.

ch 222 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

30.

ch 223 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

31.

ch 224 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

32.

ch 226 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

33.

ch 227 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

34.

ch 229 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

35.

ch 231 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

36.

ch 233 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

37.

ch 235 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

38.

ch 236 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

nice pics. brings back good memories.  I see it becomes 2x3 soon after A35 exit. btw, A35 is very bad.  but A4 is awesome.


----------



## Fargo Wolf

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A4 St. Avold - Strasbourg*
> 
> 
> ch 174 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


How is that pronounced? Bitch? :lol: :nuts:


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ :yes:


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Sorry for not knowing French, but does "Strasbourg carrefour de l'Europe" mean "Strasbourg supermarket of Europe"?  

:jk:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Strasbourg crossroads of Europe.

Some stupid advertising line. It's not an important crossroad at all. There isn't even a motorway continuing into Germany, nor is there significant east-west traffic. Most north-south traffic bypasses Strasbourg via German A5. I'd say Strasbourg is actually one of the least important crossroad of any major city in France.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Strasbourg crossroads of Europe.


Yeah I figured that out by googling 



> Some stupid advertising line. It's not an important crossroad at all. There isn't even a motorway continuing into Germany, nor is there significant east-west traffic.


I think it is due to its history of crossroad between French and German worlds. Alsace and Lorraine passed from France to Germany and vice versa during the centuries that they are a bit of both.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, you could consider it a crossroad of culture and language. Hundreds of towns and villages in the region have German names. But it isn't a transportation crossroad.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I think that this is what they meant when they invented the slogan. It was never a matter of transportation.


----------



## Morsue

Remember it's one of the seats of the European Parliament.


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ Indeed, and Strasbourg also hosts the Council of Europe + the European Court of Human Rights + many smaller European institutions !!


----------



## hofburg

I also think that it's not meant literally. But Chris has automatically first association on highway interchange, so there you go.


----------



## parcdesprinces

I think they first wanted to wrote "Strasbourg, Capitale de l'Europe", but they certainly thought it was a bit too much..so they wrote "carrefour" instead, which is less..arrogant   !


----------



## christos-greece

^^ This particurarly motorway opened recently? I remember seeing on a map near Strasbourg, a incompleted road, motorway few years ago...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A35 Strasbourg*

A video through the "crossroads of Europe".


----------



## hofburg

I don't have impression that there is a big city on the left; similar to A4 bypassing Metz.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

True. Although A4 bypasses Metz from a bigger distance than A35. A35 comes quite close to the city center (only 1 km!)


----------



## hofburg

uf, that's close! seems like they did really good (or bad?) job hidding the motorway.


----------



## christos-greece

^^ The most motorways in big cities sometimes are underground; above of that particurarly road they have parks, trees or a simple road.
That's you mean using the word "hidding" right?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, the center is separated from the motorway and suburbs by a big railway station, yard and a concentration of railway lines. That's why you don't see much of it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Video: Autoroute A40

A video of Autoroute A40 through the Jura Mountains.


----------



## hofburg

^^ wow, great motorway. isn't it autoroute blanche? why's that name?


----------



## hofburg

I looked a bit further,
:eek2: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=...=62IpK75YrN7jCWCQxHbpYQ&cbp=12,341.51,,0,1.88

did you drive trough mont blanc?


----------



## x-type

fabolous motorway!
btw, that A404 was very usefull to me (actually to my trucks) when i worked in transportation company because i drove many toys from Oyonnax to Slovenia and Croatia, i'm not sure if there was production plant or just distributor (probably distributor)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

hofburg said:


> I looked a bit further,
> :eek2: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=...=62IpK75YrN7jCWCQxHbpYQ&cbp=12,341.51,,0,1.88
> 
> did you drive trough mont blanc?


No, I came from Genève.


----------



## -Pino-

At the first exit in the video, Dijon is signposted, but it never returns on subsequent exits. Poor (and un-French) guidance, that. Also strange that Lyon's airport gets mentioned as early as the A40-A42 interchange. You could have waited until approaching the Lyon metro area ...


----------



## christos-greece

ChrisZwolle said:


> Video: Autoroute A40
> 
> A video of Autoroute A40 through the Jura Mountains.


In those autoroutes around Alpes and Jura mountains, the scenery its really very nice


----------



## drzamich

Is height limit common?


----------



## Substructure

ChrisZwolle, those mountains are part of the Alps, the Jura range is a bit more north. No big deal though.

hofburg : Yes, this is the Autoroute Blanche ("white highway"). The name is because of the snow covered Alps that it crosses. It is also called Autoroute des Titans for its colossal infrastructures and engineering (ex : Sylans or Nantua viaducts).


----------



## hofburg

Substructure said:


> ChrisZwolle, those mountains are part of the Alps, the Jura range is a bit more north. No big deal though.


you sure? I checked out wiki - http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Juragebirge.JPG

btw, how old are jura mountains compared to the Alps?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The section east of Genève is called the "Autoroute Blanche" i.e. the section through the Alps. The section I made a video from, is west of Genève, and is called the "Autoroute des Titans", and is located in the Jura Mountains.


----------



## hofburg

well, google sais that it's called autoroute blanche till Macon.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ French Wikipedia:



> Cette autoroute est surnommée autoroute Blanche sur la partie entre Bellegarde-sur-Valserine et Annemasse, et autoroute des Titans entre Bourg-en-Bresse et Bellegarde.


Bellegarde is east of where I started the video (thus making the video covering the Autoroute des Titans). 

Another picture:


----------



## christos-greece

In that area of Jura and Alpes its probably the area with the highest autoroute bridges, mostly around Alpes...


----------



## khawa

hofburg said:


> well, google sais that it's called autoroute blanche till Macon.


Google equated Autoroute Blanche with A40, but stands corrected by its own cameras:









The part of A40 called Autoroute Blanche is the section built by the operator of Tunnel du Mont Blanc (ATMB).









It was completed some time before the western link (A 40 Macon - Chatillon-en-Michaille) operated by APRR.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A40 Genève - Bourg-en-Bresse*

Photos of Autoroute A40 from the Swiss border at Genève via Nantua to Bourg-en-Bresse. This section of Autoroute goes through the Jura Mountains, and it quite spectacular. Note the transition from sunny to fog exactly at the A42 interchange.

Route:









1. 
IMG_4581 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. 
IMG_4582 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3. 
IMG_4583 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.
IMG_4586 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.
IMG_4587 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.
IMG_4589 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.
IMG_4590 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.
IMG_4592 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.
IMG_4593 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.
IMG_4594 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.
IMG_4597 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.
IMG_4600 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.
IMG_4602 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.
IMG_4604 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.
IMG_4605 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.
IMG_4607 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.
IMG_4609 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.
IMG_4611 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.
IMG_4612 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.
IMG_4613 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21.
IMG_4614 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22.
IMG_4615 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

23.
IMG_4617 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

24.
IMG_4618 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

25.
IMG_4619 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

26.
IMG_4620 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

27.
IMG_4621 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

28.
IMG_4622 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

29.
IMG_4625 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

30.
IMG_4626 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

31.
IMG_4627 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

32.
IMG_4629 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

33.
IMG_4632 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

34.
IMG_4633 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

35.
IMG_4636 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

36.
IMG_4637 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

37.
IMG_4640 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

38.
IMG_4641 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

39.
IMG_4642 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

40.
IMG_4647 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

41.
IMG_4648 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

42.
IMG_4649 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

43.
IMG_4650 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

44.
IMG_4653 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## Highwaycrazy

I like the overpasses on concrete stilts. They actually do a really good job in such terrain. French Highways around the south coast frequently use these also. I remember seeing these when I visited the Cote D'Aaur last spring.


----------



## christos-greece

Great, very nice photo tour Chris; in the mist the terrain is wonderful 

I noticed that except of A6 coming from A40, there is a another road A5 to Paris... the second is the longest route, right?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes. A6 is significantly shorter from Genève, and especially from Lyon. However, A5 carries less traffic, but is only interesting for a few suburbs east of Paris. You can still switch to A5 near Sens, when you use A6-A19-A5 to Paris. 

I've driven A39-A31-A5-A26 too, I will post pics later


----------



## hofburg

beautiful motorway. I counted only 2 bigger viaducts and 1 tunnel. Jura mountains aren't that hard to pass? 

edit: I checked on google maps, there are more...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A39 Bourg-en-Bresse - Dole - Dijon*

A set from almost the entire A39 from Bourg-en-Bresse via Lons-le-Saunier and Dole to Dijon. These photos were taken in early September, but I haven't uploaded them until now. The first section is in the fog, but the sky clears pretty abruptly further north.

Enjoy :cheers:

route:









1. 
IMG_4654 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. 
IMG_4655 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.
IMG_4657 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.
IMG_4659 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.
IMG_4661 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.
IMG_4665 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.
IMG_4667 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.
IMG_4668 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.
IMG_4670 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.
IMG_4672 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.
IMG_4678 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.
IMG_4680 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.
IMG_4681 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.
IMG_4683 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.
IMG_4686 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.
IMG_4687 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.
IMG_4690 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.
IMG_4693 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.
IMG_4694 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.
IMG_4695 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21.
IMG_4696 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22.
IMG_4698 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

23.
IMG_4700 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

24.
IMG_4702 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

25.
IMG_4703 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

26.
IMG_4705 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

27.
IMG_4707 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

28.
IMG_4708 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

29.
IMG_4710 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

30.
IMG_4711 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

31.
IMG_4713 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

32.
IMG_4716 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## x-type

nice motorway. i expected it to be supstitution for A6 from Marseille to Paris, but it is almost 100 km longer


----------



## -Pino-

More a substitution on the routes Paris - Alps, and Marseille - North East.


----------



## acela

How wide per lane is the autoroute? It is the same as the british/interstate 12ft lane?


----------



## christos-greece

Once again very nice photos from A39 route Chris, btw escept of A36 and A31 there is a A3 probably right?


----------



## CNGL

There's an A3 in France... but only exists for a few km East of Paris.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Considering the French numbering system, A3 was probably supposed to be a number for a northeast route, pretty much what N2 is nowadays.


----------



## sotonsi

The A3 is only a bit shorter than the original plan, though it goes in a different direction (along what was the B3).

It was to have gone along the A103 and A199 to meet the A4.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I noticed there is no good route from the northwestern suburbs along A15 / A115 to central Paris.

If you drive the 2x4 A15, it doesn't continue to the BP, but you have to use A86 to stay on high-standard routes. However, there is no A1/A86 interchange, so you need to use regular streets to get to the BP. If you drive via La Défense, you will eventually end up on N13, which isn't a motorway / expressway either.


----------



## Minato ku

^^ It what we call an unfinished and cancelled project.

The interchange between the Peripherique and A15.









We clearly see where the A15 was planned to run in northwestern inner suburbs.


----------



## sotonsi

sotonsi said:


> The A3 is only a bit shorter than the original plan, though it goes in a different direction (along what was the B3).
> 
> It was to have gone along the A103 and A199 to meet the A4.


I was wrong - the A199 wasn't part of the A3 plans - though it did meet it.

Wiki SARA


----------



## Minato ku

Red : Motorway built
Dark purple : canceled
Green : modified project 
Orange : plan Pompidou (freeways in the center of Paris) canceled
Light purple : freeways built
Brown : still approved.

I wonder how would be Paris if everything was built.:dunno:


----------



## hofburg

west and north of paris there's not one single motorway link to A86. There's A13, but there A86 ends.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The plan Pompidou was not very feasible. It would require massive disruption of an existing dense environment, the suburban Autoroutes were mostly built at the same time as the suburbs grew from villages to towns. 

From a traffic point of view, an east-west route through the Paris proper wouldn't be the worst idea, but the problem is such a connection would attract through traffic, which you'd rather leave on the Boulevard Périphérique or better: A86. 

A trend I noticed recently is to put roofs on many suburban motorways.


----------



## Minato ku

The freeway between Porte de Vanves and Montpanarnasse (after the A10) was close to be realised.
Here we see where the freeway should be build, now it is a park.









The same for the A10 motorway between Massy and Porte de Vanves.
The place left and insfrastructures built for the A10 are now used by the Antlantic highspeed railways since 1990


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A31 Dijon - Langres*

Autoroute A31 northbound from Dijon to Langres. This section of A31 was recently widened to 2x3 lanes, reducing summer congestion.

route:









1. 
IMG_4717 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. 
IMG_4718 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3. Aire
IMG_4721 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4. Sortie 4: Vesoul.
IMG_4722 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5. 
IMG_4723 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6. 
IMG_4724 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7. 
IMG_4725 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8. Aire de Repos.
IMG_4727 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9. 
IMG_4728 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10. Til-Châtel.
IMG_4730 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11. 
IMG_4731 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12. 
IMG_4732 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13. 
IMG_4734 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14. 
IMG_4735 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.
IMG_4736 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16. Langres-Sud.
IMG_4737 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17. 
IMG_4738 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18. 
IMG_4740 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19. 
IMG_4741 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20. 
IMG_4742 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21. 
IMG_4743 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22. 
IMG_4746 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

I don't understand, how was it widened? to the left or to the right? 



Minato ku said:


> ^^ It what we call an unfinished and cancelled project.
> 
> The interchange between the Peripherique and A15.
> We clearly see where the A15 was planned to run in northwestern inner suburbs.


but, that motorway seems that can be easily built. any plans to do that?


----------



## Minato ku

^^ I doubt that nowadays local authorities would approve a motorway running in densely built areas. 
Some buildings were built over the place left for the motorway.


----------



## hofburg

Minato ku said:


> ^^ I doubt that nowadays local authorities would approve a motorway running in densely built areas.


that's too bad. entire Paris area is dense, so that would mean no motorways?? that should not be a reason.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A5 Langres - Troyes*

Having photographed the A5 between Sens and Troyes in 2008, it was time to do the eastern section in 2010, between Langres (A31) and Troyes. This section of Autoroute is rather interesting, and not as boring as many other northern France autoroutes. The quality is, as usual on toll roads, impeccable.

route:









1. 

IMG_4748 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. 

IMG_4749 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.

IMG_4752 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

IMG_4754 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.

IMG_4755 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

IMG_4756 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

IMG_4757 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

IMG_4759 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

IMG_4761 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

IMG_4763 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

IMG_4764 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

IMG_4765 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

IMG_4766 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

IMG_4767 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

IMG_4768 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.

IMG_4770 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.

IMG_4771 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.

IMG_4772 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.

IMG_4773 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.

IMG_4774 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21.

IMG_4778 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22.

IMG_4779 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

23.

IMG_4781 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> Strasbourg crossroads of Europe.
> 
> Some stupid advertising line. It's not an important crossroad at all.


It's actually based on the etymology of the name "Strasbourg", from "Stratis-burgum" = "town (at the crossing of) roads".

Stratis- = strata (La) = Strasse (De) = street (En) = strada (It)
-burgum = Burg (De) = bourg/bourgeois (Fr) = borough (En) = borgo (It)


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> I noticed there is no good route from the northwestern suburbs along A15 / A115 to central Paris.
> 
> If you drive the 2x4 A15, it doesn't continue to the BP, but you have to use A86 to stay on high-standard routes. However, there is no A1/A86 interchange, so you need to use regular streets to get to the BP. If you drive via La Défense, you will eventually end up on N13, which isn't a motorway / expressway either.


Minato Ku already answered about the A15 (hopefully they'll finish it someday). As for the N13, it's going to be burried in a tunnel below the Avenue Charles de Gaulle in Neuilly. It costs 1 billion euros (1.4 billion dollars) to do it, the Left is against it, but Sarkozy is in favor of it. When it's burried, it will simply become the continuation of the A14, all the way to the Périphérique.


----------



## brisavoine

Minato ku said:


> I wonder how would be Paris if everything was built.:dunno:


Less traffic jams, less pollution.


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> west and north of paris there's not one single motorway link to A86. There's A13, but there A86 ends.


The A14 and A15 both connect with the A86. The viaduct of the A15 over the Seine river is very impressive (particularly Cergy >> Paris-centre), the view there is perhaps the most spectacular urban view in Europe, on par with what one can see in the largest US metro areas. Minato Ku and I drove there last week.


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> that's too bad. entire Paris area is dense, so that would mean no motorways?? that should not be a reason.


Only solution is a tunnel. Maybe after they do the N13/A14 tunnel in Neuilly.


----------



## hofburg

brisavoine said:


> The A14 and A15 both connect with the A86. The viaduct of the A15 over the Seine river is very impressive (particularly Cergy >> Paris-centre), the view there is perhaps the most spectacular urban view in Europe, on par with what one can see in the largest US metro areas. Minato Ku and I drove there last week.


I meant peripherique -> A86. 

I drove myself too on A15 over Seine, it's really spectacular. what's that below it, some kind of port or... ?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, the port of Gennevilliers. One of the larger inland ports of Europe (it doesn't beat Duisburg though).


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> I meant peripherique -> A86.


What did you mean exactly?


hofburg said:


> I drove myself too on A15 over Seine, it's really spectacular. what's that below it, some kind of port or... ?


It's the Port of Paris (located in Gennevilliers), which happens to be nothing less than the 2nd largest river port in Europe (behind Duisburg Port).


----------



## brisavoine

A view of the Port of Paris (Gennevilliers), with the A15 viaduct.










My cousin used to cross that viaduct every morning to go to work in Saint-Denis (i.e. she crossed Cergy >> Paris-centre in the morning, and Paris-centre >> Cergy in the evening). She said every morning the 8 lanes were totally full of car, with long traffic jams. The best is to drive on it Cergy >> Paris-centre after 10pm, when there is less traffic and you can see all the lights of Central Paris ahead. It's one of the greatest driving experiences I know in Europe (go to the Ikea in Franconville, stay there till it closes at 10pm, then return to Central Paris via A15, then A86 southbound, then tunnel of the A14 eastbound, then N13, then Avenue de la Grande Armée, Arc de Triomphe, and Champs-Elysées, it's grand! :cheers.

Just before the viaduct:









The viaduct from below:









Bad views from over the viaduct (the most impressive view with La Défense and the Eiffel Tower is to the right, not visible here):


















Montmartre as seen from the viaduct:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How about the view from N118, I believe I saw a picture from it once...


----------



## sonysnob

France has some really nice highways.

Is it just me (and forgive me, I don't follow this thread regularly), but the roads all seem to be in immaculate condition. Impressive!


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> How about the view from N118, I believe I saw a picture from it once...


Yes, the plunge down to Central Paris on the N118 and on the A13 are both impressive too, but I find the A15 viaduct even more impressive. It's longer than the N118 and A13 plunges. Also, it's further from Central Paris, so you see more of the huge urban area around. On the N118 and A13 the view is more limited if I remember correctly.

In purely aesthetic terms though, the arrival in Central Paris on the A13 and N118 is probably more beautiful, because you don't go over industrial lands as is the case with the A15. But personally I prefer the larger angle and more unpolished, chaotic vision from the A15 viaduct.

Another great one which I showed to Minato Ku and Metropolitan last week is the arrival in Greater Paris on the N1 (now renamed D316). Southbound from Chantilly, you're in the countryside, no Paris in sight, you climb a hill after Ecouen, and suddenly as you pass the summit of the hill, WOW!, the huge urbanized expanse of Greater Paris is right in front of you. It's shocking when you don't expect it (which was my case the first time I drove there southbound). It's a super sharp transition from almost empty open field countryside to megacity in just a few hundred meters.


----------



## brisavoine

sonysnob said:


> France has some really nice highways.
> 
> Is it just me (and forgive me, I don't follow this thread regularly), but the roads all seem to be in immaculate condition. Impressive!


That's what you get when you pay more than 70% taxes per liter of gas + expensive tolls on the motorways/freeways (except in the metropolitan areas). Sometimes though, I'd rather pay cheaper gas and no toll, and have less immaculate roads. :wink2:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

brisavoine said:


> Another great one which I showed to Minato Ku and Metropolitan last week is the arrival in Greater Paris on the N1 (now renamed D316). Southbound from Chantilly, you're in the countryside, no Paris in sight, you climb a hill after Ecouen, and suddenly as you pass the summit of the hill, WOW!, the huge urbanized expanse of Greater Paris is right in front of you. It's shocking when you don't expect it (which was my case the first time I drove there southbound). It's a super sharp transition from almost empty open field countryside to megacity in just a few hundred meters.


I remember a similar situation coming from N2 from Laon. The area around the Paris metropolitan area is sparsely populated and the transition from very rural to continuously urbanized is pretty fast from most inbound routes.


----------



## Minato ku

A photo when I was on the A15 viaduc with Brisavoine and Metropolitan









The really impressive view is on the oposite way, I couldn't made a decent picture of it.


----------



## hofburg

brisavoine said:


> What did you mean exactly?


direct motorway links from peripherique to A86. there is nothing from porte de bagnolet to porte d'auteil (north and west), which is more then a half of the peripherique.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The eastern side of Paris has better infrastructure than the western side anyway. Lots of gaps in western Paris. I've read they want to construct A104 between Cergy and Orgeval? Would be a nice idea to finish the Francilienne.

If you have the A104 -> N104 -> N118 -> A86 -> A13 -> A104 -> N184 -> N104 route (clockwise), you have a full ring road of 200 kilometers length.


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> direct motorway links from peripherique to A86. there is nothing from porte de bagnolet to porte d'auteil (north and west), which is more then a half of the peripherique.


That's not true. The A14/N13 connects the Périphérique with the A86. In any case, when you're on the Pérhiphérique you don't really need a connection with the A86, and vice versa, given that these two freeways run parallel to each other.


----------



## Kevin_01

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A39 Bourg-en-Bresse - Dole - Dijon*
> 
> A set from almost the entire A39 from Bourg-en-Bresse via Lons-le-Saunier and Dole to Dijon. These photos were taken in early September, but I haven't uploaded them until now. The first section is in the fog, but the sky clears pretty abruptly further north.
> 
> Enjoy :cheers:


You saw the famous chicken of Bresse ?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Kevin_01 said:


> You saw the famous chicken of Bresse ?


Yes, I saw signs of it, don't know if it was on A39 or A40.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> The eastern side of Paris has better infrastructure than the western side anyway. Lots of gaps in western Paris.


Not now that they are going to open the remaining section of the A86 tunnel. 

Besides, you guys here always think in terms of autoroutes/motorways, but you don't realize that in Greater Paris there are not only autoroutes, there are also voies express (expressways) and 2x2 roads everywhere that essentially function as motorways without the name. For example the N13 between Saint-Germain-en-Laye and Rueil-Malmaison is almost like a motorway without the name.


ChrisZwolle said:


> I've read they want to construct A104 between Cergy and Orgeval?


Yes, it's ongoing. I think we already talked about it here. It's the green line on the map below that was officially adopted (even though some local mayors still oppose it). I don't know if the project is going to be delayed due to the financial crisis and budget deficits.


----------



## brisavoine

The green itinerary that was officially adopted in 2006 will cost 2.5 billion euros (3.5 billion dollars). Some local mayors still oppose it and would prefer the ligh blue itinerary, with a tunnel below the Forest of Saint-Germain, because less people live around it. The light blue itinerary would connect with the A14, whereas the green itinerary connects with the A13.


----------



## brisavoine

Latest news: on September 7, 2010, the Socialist mayor of Conflans-Sainte-Honorine, who until then opposed the green itinerary cutting across his municipality, now agrees with it after he received assurances from the Elysées Palace that the motorway would be burried in a tunnel below his municipality. The tunnel will be 3 km long and will cross the Seine below the river bed (i.e. no bridge). Because of this tunnel, the costs for the green itinerary were raised from 2.2 billion to 2.5 billion euros.

The local Greens have voiced their opposition to what they call a "pharaonic" project, and they denounce the higher costs (2.5 billion now). They say that this huge amount of money would be better invested in rail transport.

Opponents to the project have blocked some roads on October 2, 2010 to protest against it. Etc.

Don't you love France? :lol: :crazy: :hammer:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You guys have too many municipalities, thus too many mayors who only look at their own little municipality instead of public tax interests.


----------



## hofburg

brisavoine said:


> That's not true. The A14/N13 connects the Périphérique with the A86. In any case, when you're on the Pérhiphérique you don't really need a connection with the A86, and vice versa, given that these two freeways run parallel to each other.


N13  it's motorway like, but there are traffic lights... it's always better if you have a motorway separated from other roads...

ok, N13/A14 functions well as a motorway replacements, but you can't say that for A1 -> A15 for example, where you have to leave the A1 and go back to reach A86 and A15/A16 let's say.


----------



## hofburg

I noticed there's already tunnel on N13. how will they build another one for future motorway?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> They say that this huge amount of money would be better invested in rail transport.


They always say that by default but what do they want? A subway station under their house? Three parallel RER lines? These lines like "more rail" are so thin and empty. Technically profitable public transport lines already exist. Sure, a few improvements here and there can do no harm, but there's no use in senselessly dumping money in PT for the sake of "more public transport".


----------



## ChrisZwolle

hofburg said:


> I noticed there's already tunnel on N13. how will they build another one for future motorway?


There is also an underground interchange between BP and N13. 

Here's a picture of that tunnel you referred to.


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> N13  it's motorway like, but there are traffic lights... it's always better if you have a motorway separated from other roads...


I took the N13 several times. Honestly, traffic there moves more smoothly than on the Périphérique. The lights are red for a very short period of time only, and they are in synch.


hofburg said:


> ok, N13/A14 functions well as a motorway replacements, but you can't say that for A1 -> A15 for example, where you have to leave the A1 and go back to reach A86 and A15/A16 let's say.


A1 southbound >> A86 westbound >> A15 northbound is easy. It's actually the itinerary my cousin used when returning from work.

A1 northbound >> A86 westbound >> A15 northbound is more complicated, but why would you need to do that?? :dunno:

In any case for me the worse by far is the lack of connection between A6 southbound and A86 westbound. Who is the brilliant engineer who planned no interchange there? :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

brisavoine said:


> A1 northbound >> A86 westbound >> A15 northbound is more complicated, but why would you need to do that?? :dunno:


I'd think that is a rather important missing link, since it connects central Paris with all suburbs along A15. Half of urban Val-d'Oise relies on this connection to Paris, because, as we discussed, there is no A15 crossing the Seine towards the Boulevard Périphérique. N315 ends less than 2 km short of BP.


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> ok, N13/A14 functions well as a motorway replacements, but you can't say that for A1 -> A15 for example, where you have to leave the A1 and go back to reach A86 and A15/A16 let's say.


That's how you get from the A1 southbound to the A86 westbound. 










And then from the A86 westbound to the A15 northbound.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'd think that is a rather important missing link, since it connects central Paris with all suburbs along A15. Half of urban Val-d'Oise relies on this connection to Paris, because, as we discussed, there is no A15 crossing the Seine towards the Boulevard Périphérique. N315 ends less than 2 km short of BP.


The problem is A15 reaching the Périphérique. That's what they should do. You don't take the A1 northbound to reach the A15. That would be like someone from Rotterdam driving to Amsterdam in order to get to Utrecht. Besides, the A1 is already congested enough, so that would be a very bad idea to bring the traffic of the A15 on the A1.

What most people do is they take N13/A14 westbound >> A86 eastbound >> A15 northbound. Many people also simply leave the Périphérique and cross Clichy to reach the entrance of the N315/A15 in Asnières.


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> I noticed there's already tunnel on N13. how will they build another one for future motorway?


It is Nicolas Sarkozy, mayor of Neuilly, who built the first tunnel. Now that he's president, he wants to complete the tunnel all the way to the Périphérique. The Socialists oppose it, they say it's "pharaonic" (1 billion euros), and they say it's only for the "rich" people of Neuilly. :bash:

If Sarkozy loses the presidential elections in 2012, the tunnel will probably never be dug, i.e. the A14 will not reach the Périphérique. If he wins, it will be dug, and the A14 will connect with the Périphérique underground. The tunnel is very complicated, there are several projects. Metropolitan could tell you more about it, he works at the town hall of Neuilly and follows the issue closely, but he was unfairly banned for life from SSC by BrunoB a few months ago, and at SSC there is no way to challenge the decisions of a mod, even if the mod is abusing his powers.

Metropolitan has opened a thread about the N13/A14 tunnel under Neuilly at www.paris-skyscrapers.fr if you are interested in the issue. It's a fascinating issue actually. Not only they would bore a 6-lane motorway tunnel + RER E two-track tunnel side by side, or one above the other, or a combination of the two, but they would also completely transform Porte Maillot overground, to ensure urban continuity between the City of Paris and Neuilly (no more vast windswept no-man's-land at the level of the Porte Maillot Congress Hall).


----------



## brisavoine

Today:









One proposal for the tunnel (RER E is not visible here, only RER A, Métro line 1, and future A14 tunnel are visible):









Another view (again, the RER E is not shown):









Tomorrow:



























Urban continuity at the Porte Maillot :









For comparison, this is the Porte Maillot today. A huge empty space that is a physical barrier in the Paris urban fabric. A bit like Potsdamer Platz in Berlin after they tore down the Berlin Wall in 1989.









The official website of the project: http://www.axemajeur.org/

An association of opponents to the project has already been set up: :lol:
http://www.neuillyperif.com/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think it's a great solution. It's good for traffic flow, and good for residents. 

The potential of urban tunnels under intersections or a series of intersections is often underestimated in my opinion. Traffic flow can be improved significantly, even with less lanes.


----------



## christos-greece

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is also an underground interchange between BP and N13.
> 
> Here's a picture of that tunnel you referred to.


N13 is the road which passes La Defense underground?


@Brisavoine: The proposal of the tunnel A14 would be great for Paris if ever choose to construct that...


----------



## hofburg

thanks brisavoine for that explanation and photos. :cheers: that project is really great.

hehe, that web site of association against the tunnel is funny.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

christos-greece said:


> N13 is the road which passes La Defense underground?


Yes, but that isn't this tunnel, this tunnel runs under some intersections in Neuilly-sur-Seine, when it becomes above ground to cross the Seine River, after which the tunnel under La Défense follows.


----------



## [email protected]

brisavoine said:


> An association of opponents to the project has already been set up: :lol:
> http://www.neuillyperif.com/


Their 10 alternative "measures" are funny. They clearly don't answer the same needs as the tunnel. Do they know some people care about this issue beyond the tiny Neuilly municipality ? 





neuillyperif said:


> Cette quête nous a fait apparaître qu'elle aboutissait à enfermer sur deux kilomètres les usagers "forcés" du tunnel, automobilistes et motards qu'on prend pour des taupes !


:rofl:


----------



## brisavoine

Somewhere in France...


----------



## Fargo Wolf

brisavoine said:


> Somewhere in France...


Citroen 2CV I believe... :tongue3:


----------



## brisavoine

The border checkpoint on the Franco-Brazilian border is being built as we speak right now. It will be located on the French side of the Oyapock River. It is the first Franco-Brazilian border checkpoint ever built. Workers are working non-stop on the checkpoint, the access road, and the international bridge itself to open everything in December, just before the end of Lula's presidency, because Lula wants to inaugurate the bridge with Sarkozy before he leaves the presidency. Here are the latest pictures of the checkpoint taken 10 days ago. :cheers:























































The French road authorities started to put the upper layer of pavement on the access road to the international bridge last week. Here are the pictures taken last week.


----------



## christos-greece

brisavoine said:


> Somewhere in France...
> http://i52.tinypic.com/67inic.jpg


Somewhere in France... near Nice or Monte Carlo?


----------



## brisavoine

Latest pics of the Franco-Brazilian bridge over the Oyapock River taken 2 days ago. The pylons have almost reached their final height (80 meters). The deck and the cables should be installed soon now.


----------



## engenx4

^^I hope they use brazilian Standard:|

Map


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ And why should they/we ???

Since we are in France till the middle of the bridge, then I hope they'll use French standards till that point !!! :baeh3:

Makes sense, eh ??


----------



## engenx4

^^I think 100% of the bridge will be in the Brazilian standard:cheer::cheer:

Look the bridge between Brazil and Guiana(with standard french)











et:


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ OK then I am >( :rant:  :mad2: ...........  

Damn incompetent Colonial Government !


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A4 Reims*

The new A4 alignment south of Reims was opened to traffic last night:



> *Contournement sud de Reims ouvert*
> 
> La portion de 14 kilomètres inaugurée le 18 novembre est ouverte !
> 
> L'A4 bis enfin mise en service dans la nuit de lundi à mardi (entre le 22 et le 23 novembre). Cette portion permet d'éviter la traversée de Reims. A terme, il est envisagé de supprimer le tronçon de l'A4 qui coupe la ville de Reims en deux.
> 
> Les travaux qui ont duré un peu plus de 2 ans et demi s'élèvent à 245 millions d'euros.
> 
> Désormais, l'inquiétude vient des riverains à propos du bruit que va engendrer cette nouvelle autoroute à proximité des 11 communes traversées. Ils entament un combat, et réclament que la vitesse soit limitée à 110 km/h. D'ailleurs, une pétition circule. La moitié des habitants de Bezannes ont signé.
> 
> Pour l'instant, le ministère des transports n'a pas donné d'avis et le préfet de la Marne refuse de répondre à nos questions. Or, à la Sanef (Société des Autoroutes du Nord Est de la France), on prépare déjà les panneaux de 130 km/h.


----------



## sotonsi

What is the old road going to be renumbered as?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You got me. I'm curious too. I suppose it would be a D-road.


----------



## hofburg

> Autoroutes du France


who changed the title of the thread?  it's wrong, autoroutes *de* France is right.


----------



## Penn's Woods

engenx4 said:


> ^^I hope they use brazilian Standard:|


Brazilian standard what?


----------



## Penn's Woods

hofburg said:


> who changed the title of the thread?  it's wrong, autoroutes *de* France is right.


I saw that too, and just assumed I'd never noticed. But could you also say "de la France"?


----------



## parcdesprinces

Penn's Woods said:


> But could you also say "de la France"?


Nope, it's not really grammatically correct ! 

But you could say "de France" indeed, or "Françaises", or even "Les Autoroutes en France" ..


----------



## Morsue

sotonsi said:


> What is the old road going to be renumbered as?


In the article posted by Chris it says that the ambition is to demolish the old road.

And seriously, who changed the thread title? Autoroutes de France, it should be.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It would be stupid to demolish the old road, it would still remain useful for traffic within Reims or that has a destination within Reims.


----------



## max9309

ChrisZwolle said:


> It would be stupid to demolish the old road, it would still remain useful for traffic within Reims or that has a destination within Reims.


yeah and also too expensive 
from now new bypass is numbered A4 but for the old section trough reims we don't know, for the moment it seems to be called A4b


----------



## [email protected]

I took some pics of the N20 south of Paris between Etampes and Orleans. It's mostly 2x2 or 2+1. It's 2x1 only trough the villages of Chevilly and Cercottes. There are seriously run down homes next to it in Paris suburbs and in some of the villages it passes through. The inhabitants seem to have fled the noise and pollution. In some of the villages the speed limit is still 90 km/h.



It's rather curvy despite the flat terrain.












Some trees on this stretch :





















The landscape isn't particularly appealing, loads of pylons and windmills. 






























Here the buildings aren't run down, the road is 2x1 and the speed limit is 50 km/h.





















Orleans suburbs, it's 2x2 again.


----------



## Penn's Woods

In the picture with the signs, there's one that says "Loiret" with information and café symbols, and "Moulin d'Artenay". In the background, there's what I assume is the moulin, and some sort of building. Tourist information center for the department of the Loiret? I'm curious, because most U.S. states and Canadian provinces - which have the main responsibility for promoting tourism - maintain "welcome centers" on the main highways at the state/provincial borders, but I wasn't aware of such things in Europe, particularly at borders between subdivisions within a country.


----------



## [email protected]

The building next to the windmill is a _Courtepaille_ chain restaurant.
I would say that the sign says there are tourist informations about the department and the windmill inside the windmill itself. 
I have no clue if these signs are frequent, I would say no because departments are very small compared to states/provinces.
All I can say is that in motorway service areas there is usually a tourist information center.


----------



## brisavoine

parcdesprinces said:


> Damn incompetent Colonial Government !


The border checkpoint will be on the French side, so it's the French authorities who will control the border.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The final missing link of A75 near Valros opened preliminary on friday. A75 is now 334 kilometers long. Full opening on December 10th.


----------



## x-type

what does additional sign "RAPPEL" mean?


----------



## brisavoine

Reminder.


----------



## Minato ku

The second tunnel of tha A86 motorway between Vaucresson and Versailles will open the January 9, 2011.
The opening of this section will complete the second beltway of Paris.

The work of the first section of the A86 began 42 years ago in 1968.
http://www.leparisien.fr/hauts-de-seine-92/le-second-tunnel-de-l-a-86-ouvrira-le-9-janvier-03-12-2010-1175559.php


----------



## [email protected]c

Traffic jams peaked at 447 km at rush hour in Paris area due to snowy roads, setting a new record.


----------



## Coccodrillo

It's a single tunnel, with an underground interchaneg in the middle that divides it in two parts (4.5 and 5.5 km). Only low vehicles can use it as the carriageway is only about 2.5 m high, because this allows four lanes in a single bore, but on two levels.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ We will construct a double deck tunnel in the Netherlands with a clearance of 4.7 m for both decks


----------



## Coccodrillo

As far I know Masstricht tunnel will be an artificial tunnel, unlike this which is bored (with TBM, diameter around 12 metres) and deeper (up to 100 metres), so it's a different technique.

Anyway this tunnel was planned as such (it's also forbidden to motorcycles for safety reasons) because there was another one planned for other vehicles (trucks, buses, motorcycles, cars with caravan) but this one is not likely to be built.

I'm not sure about the exact locations of the tunnels and the entrances. but in this map, the red tunnel is the one being finally opened entirely in January (the N13-A13 part is already opened), the blue tunnel is the planned mixed traffic tunnel (one lane per direction without rescue tunnel, the project was made before the Mont Blanc tragedy), the green points are the planend entrances, the orange point is a planned but not built entrance.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## christos-greece

[email protected] said:


> Traffic jams peaked at 447 km at rush hour in Paris area due to snowy roads, setting a new record.


The metropolitan area of Paris how many entrances/exits has to enter/leave the city of Paris? I am talking about the major motorways not the small roads


----------



## parcdesprinces

christos-greece said:


> The metropolitan area of Paris how many entrances/exits has to enter/leave the city of Paris? I am talking about the major motorways not the small roads


Here is a simplified map :



















sytadin.fr


----------



## [email protected]

There are 6 motorway exits on the _périphérique_, 2 of these merge only a few kms from it (A6a and A6b). There are 7 if we count the N13 which becomes the A14 shortly after. 
There are 7 "real" motorways exiting the urban area (8 if we count A11, but it splits off A10 about 50 km from Paris in the countryside).
There are 4 more expressways exiting the urban area (N2, N4, N12 and D14 northwest of Pontoise), but they downgrade to 2+1 or 2x1 about 20 km from the urban area boundaries apart from N12.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Paris motorway-expressway network is pretty good, but some parts are too substandard due to the dense urban environment. It's much better than London I'd say.


----------



## [email protected]

The most annoying thing is the bad interchanges or -better- the lack of them. A6/A86, A1/A86 anyone ? :bash:
Some connections like A15-_périphérique_ would be needed too.


----------



## hofburg

we talked about that already.  yes, paris has missing links, that's why there are traffic jams 24/24.


----------



## christos-greece

Thank you for your help and info parcdesprinces and [email protected]; i counted 8 exits/entrances on Paris périphérique


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ 6 in fact, because N118 is not connected with the Périphérique, the same with A14.
(the map I posted in my previous post is confusing on that matter)


You can see on the maps below, that the N118 ends at Pont de Sèvres, and from there till the Périph. it's just a Boulevard, while the A14 ends at La Défense:


----------



## christos-greece

^^ Oh yes that is more helpful... thanks again


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Viaduc de Millau turns 6 years today :cheers:


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Viaduc de Millau turns 6 years today :cheers:


.. and I still think they could have built the road down in the valley rather than in this spectacular manner...


----------



## hofburg

even if so, this way is better  happy b-day!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A65 Langon - Pau*

150 kilometers of A65 will open today! :banana:

This is one of the largest single motorway openings in Europe in recent years. 

The motorway however, is critized for its high tolls, the toll is € 19,70 for the 150 km trip.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Do they open today the whole motorway or were some parts already opened?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

All of it today


----------



## christos-greece

ChrisZwolle said:


> Viaduc de Millau turns 6 years today :cheers:


The most great longest bridge in France and all Europe for sure :cheers:


----------



## Arab countries 4life

France has the best Gas/rest area in the World! Nobody can top them!


----------



## hofburg

^ they are good, but they don't sell strawberry milk. while in germany, this is the first thing that pops into your eyes. 



> the toll is € 19,70 for the 150 km trip


WTF, I don't see any mountains in the middle of bordeaux and pau.


----------



## Bender

ChrisZwolle said:


> The motorway however, is critized for its high tolls, the toll is € 19,70 for the 150 km trip.


What a rip-off :bash:


----------



## czerwony_bo_szybszy

Wow they`ve even beaten my holiday trip - Macon - Geneve 132 km for 14.60€

anyway, congrats for opening such a long section, but...
is it really necessary?


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A65 Langon - Pau*
> 
> 150 kilometers of A65 will open today! :banana:
> 
> This is one of the largest single motorway openings in Europe in recent years.
> 
> The motorway however, is critized for its high tolls, the toll is € 19,70 for the 150 km trip.


Congratulations! In my fantasy world, I would connect A65 to Spanish A-23, but there are environmental reasons for not doing that .
And €19.70 for 150 km is really crazy. Is relatively more expensive than Spanish AP-68, I believe...


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> ^ they are good, but they don't sell strawberry milk.


But they sell lavender honey.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> All of it today


Stretches of it are shown as open on 2010 road atlases (published during the fall of 2009). The mapmakers could be lying, though.

And 19.70 euros for 100 miles? That's just absurd.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> the toll is € 19,70 for the 150 km trip.


Even at that price, it will take a very long time to pay for the road. Whether or not I would pay that would depend on how much time I would save. It would have to be at least 10 or 15 minutes.


----------



## parcdesprinces

ChrisZwolle said:


> Viaduc de Millau turns 6 years today :cheers:


Happy Birthday dear spectacular Viaduc ! :cheers1:


----------



## hofburg

brisavoine said:


> But they sell lavender honey.


what is that supposed to mean?


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ I guess he meant this  :


----------



## Substructure

CNGL said:


> Congratulations! In my fantasy world, I would connect A65 to Spanish A-23, but there are environmental reasons for not doing that .


There were already some serious environnemental issues with the A65 as it goes through the Landes forest, which is (was) the largest uninterrupted forest of western Europe. I believe the local environmental protection agency sued the highway company for destroying protected areas and extincting a protected specie after an accidental toxic spill in a river during the construction. Anyway, the Landes forest in now split in two by a highway.

If you can read French..
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoroute_française_A65#Probl.C3.A8mes_environnementaux


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Substructure said:


> Anyway, the Landes forest in now split in two by a highway.


Nobody will notice once they're 2 km from A65. In my opinion, the loss of quality of such an area is grossly exaggerated. Just build a number fauna passages under the motorway and an ecoduct here and there and you're okay.


----------



## x-type

christos-greece said:


> To help i found a photo of that "arrow" to show what am talking about:
> (it is small but you can see the arrow as i asking in my previous post*)


he gave you a correct answer


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Don't you have those in Greece?


----------



## philimonas

No. Although it's part of the traffic law, I have never seen them in practice and we do not learn about them at driving school.


----------



## Angelos

Nope, when overtaking is forbidden there is a continuous double white line or when it is allowed there is dashed white line


----------



## christos-greece

ChrisZwolle said:


> It indicates the end of a passing zone.


Thank you, Chris for the info



DanielFigFoz said:


> Don't you have those in Greece?


Nope, the road system in Greece has some differences, for examble we have not use that arrow for examble


----------



## brisavoine

That's what I call motorway.


----------



## brisavoine

x-type said:


> question: how is Millau pronounced [milo'] or [miʎo'] (so as an ordinary L, or as italian GL)?


It's pronounced [mijo], like "meeyo" if you will.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A6 and A1 near Paris are the only motorways in France with a 4x3 setup as far as I know.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> A6 and A1 near Paris are the only motorways in France with a 4x3 setup as far as I know.


So we're supposed to guess (as usual...) where Brisavoine's latest photo's from, and you're starting?  In that case, that train passing above the highway makes me say A1, with the train being the one into DeGaulle. When I get to, um, "work," I'll check maps and see if that works. Or not, because I do have actual work to do this morning....


----------



## Cyril

I think it is A6 with RER C train passing above the highway.

http://maps.google.fr/maps?f=q&sour...44163,2.323335&spn=0.002724,0.008256&t=h&z=18


----------



## Uppsala

Cyril said:


> I think it is A6 with RER C train passing above the highway.
> 
> http://maps.google.fr/maps?f=q&sour...44163,2.323335&spn=0.002724,0.008256&t=h&z=18


Yes, thats the RER.


----------



## x-type

brisavoine said:


> It's pronounced [mijo], like "meeyo" if you will.


yeah, that's what i was asking  thanks!


----------



## brisavoine

La la la.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A40


----------



## christos-greece

brisavoine said:


> That's what I call motorway.


Long traffic jam; one of Paris exists?


----------



## ilyan

How many motorways/stretches u/c now in France? Do you plan finish motorways development by 2020 year?


----------



## max9309

ilyan said:


> How many motorways/stretches u/c now in France? Do you plan finish motorways development by 2020 year?


motorway u/c

A 406 Macon Southern bypass should open soon

A 714 Montluçon junction (part of the RCEA) should also open soon in 2011

A 432 east of Lyon opening in 2011 too

A 89 beetwen A 72 and the eastern suburbs of Lyon should open in 2012

A 507 Marseille's eastern bypass, the eastern part should open in 2013

A 814 Caen southeastern bypass works have started few momths ago


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> A 89 between A 72 and the eastern suburbs of Lyon should open in 2012


How realistic is a 2012 opening for this section? It's hilly terrain and I haven't seen any works there in late 2008, so that probably means construction didn't start until 2009 or 2010.


----------



## brisavoine

max9309 said:


> motorway u/c
> 
> A 406 Macon Southern bypass should open soon
> 
> A 714 Montluçon junction (part of the RCEA) should also open soon in 2011
> 
> A 432 east of Lyon opening in 2011 too
> 
> A 89 beetwen A 72 and the eastern suburbs of Lyon should open in 2012
> 
> A 507 Marseille's eastern bypass, the eastern part should open in 2013
> 
> A 814 Caen southeastern bypass works have started few momths ago


And let's not forget the Toulouse-Lyon motorway (A68). We'll get it at some point. 

A major viaduct on par with the breathtaking Millau Viaduct will probably be needed in the middle of the itinerary. :naughty:


----------



## hofburg

brisavoine said:


> A major viaduct on par with the breathtaking Millau Viaduct will probably be needed in the middle of the itinerary. :naughty:


where exactly? it would go a bit towards north of milau right?


----------



## brisavoine

Probably somewhere between Séverac-le-Château and Langogne. The terrain is quite spectacular over there.


----------



## brisavoine

They have already built an impressive viaduct over the Viaur River, between Carmaux and Rodez. Winds up there blow at hurricane strength. It created lots of problems during construction.


----------



## ziMer

nice landscape  very similary to poland


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> How realistic is a 2012 opening for this section? It's hilly terrain and I haven't seen any works there in late 2008, so that probably means construction didn't start until 2009 or 2010.


Here are some pictures taken last month.


----------



## brisavoine

Some more pictures.

Pictures taken in August:



















Pictures taken in October:



















Pictures taken 2 weeks ago:


----------



## Coccodrillo

I see some tunnels, quite a rare structure in France...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

AWESOME driving video through central Paris! :cheers:


----------



## christos-greece

^^ That video is really awesome indeed; especially in avenue de Champs Elysses


----------



## Substructure

Courtesy of Cyril from the French subforum, the final trunk of Paris A86 (second ringbelt) will open in a few days, finally circling the city after more than 30 years of waiting !


----------



## Sacré Coeur

*Really great news*... I did not know that second tube part was about to open so quickly (I mean so close to the opening of the first part)...

Nonetheless, 43 years to build a 80km ring road...:nuts:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Thats worse thn the M25 :lol:


----------



## christos-greece

Substructure said:


> Courtesy of Cyril from the French subforum, the final trunk of Paris A86 (second ringbelt) will open in a few days, finally circling the city after more than 30 years of waiting !


Most of that new part is underground, as the most parts of Paris peripherique?


----------



## Coccodrillo

It's a 10 km tunnel (4.5 opened a few years ago+5.5 on Sunday) only for cars (it has two levels, which limit the vehicles to around 2.5 m heigh).


----------



## Gadiri

Substructure said:


> Courtesy of Cyril from the French subforum, the final trunk of Paris A86 (second ringbelt) will open in a few days, finally circling the city after more than 30 years of waiting !


*10km -9 euros ^^
2,2 billions euros ^^*



> *L'A 86 voit enfin le bout du tunnel !​*
> Par Angélique Négroni
> 07/01/2011
> 
> *Appelé «Duplex», cet ouvrage insolite va relier Rueil-Malmaison à Vélizy. Les voitures rouleront en sens inverse sur des niveaux superposés sous un plafond de 2,50 m. Une hauteur qui en interdit l'accès aux camions.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2009. Construction d'un tunnel accoustique au-dessus de l'autoroute, au niveau de Velizy. Crédits photo : Laurent GRANDGUILLOT/REA/Laurent GRANDGUILLOT/REA​
> La boucle est bouclée et le périphérique parisien bel et bien cerné. *Quarante-deux ans après la mise en service de sa première parcelle de route, l'A 86, une rocade située à quelques kilomètres de la capitale et baptisée à bon droit «superpériphérique», est enfin achevée*. Dimanche, *l'ultime tronçon de ces **80 km *entrera en service dans la banlieue ouest. Il s'agit de* 3,5 km entre Vaucresson et Versailles*, un *tunnel à péage innovant *(voir ci-dessus) et dont la première section de 4,5 km - entre l'échangeur de l'A 13 à Vaucresson et Rueil - est déjà ouverte depuis juin 2009.
> 
> Dans cet ouvrage appelé «Duplex», les voitures y roulent dans des sens inverses sur des niveaux superposés sous un plafond de 2,50 m. Une hauteur qui en interdit l'accès aux camions. Mais les deux-roues motorisés n'y sont pas davantage autorisés. Tout a été conçu pour une sécurité optimale et un confort de circulation. Coût de l'opération: *2,2 milliards d'euros*. Ce qui en fait le tunnel le plus coûteux de France.
> 
> Cet ouvrage high-tech de *10 kilomètres de long *et d'une véritable prouesse technologique est la solution qui a finalement été retenue pour en finir avec cet interminable bouclage de l'A 86. Alors *qu'autour de la capitale, ce vaste chantier avait avancé à rythme régulier, tronçon par tronçon, tout avait été brusquement freiné à l'ouest de Paris*. Vent debout contre ce projet, les habitants de ces communes huppées, soutenus par des associations actives et des élus influents, s'étaient mobilisés pour barrer la route à l'A 86. Pas question pour eux de porter atteinte à leur cadre de vie et d'admettre une route à grand trafic aux portes de leurs quartiers cossus et de leurs zones boisées.
> 
> 
> Un long bras de fer
> 
> Face à cette levée de boucliers, l'État qui avait jusqu'alors conduit et financé les opérations, avait alors décidé de se retirer du jeu. En envisageant la solution d'un tunnel trop onéreux pour son porte-monnaie, il avait donc fait appel au privé. *Cofiroute avait été désigné en 1999 pour prendre une concession de 75 ans, et donc concevoir, financer et construire un ouvrage en ces terres hostiles*. La filiale du groupe de BTP Vinci n'était pas arrivée au bout de ses peines. Les recours s'étaient multipliés devant les tribunaux et les opérations coup de poing également. «On s'était enchaîné dans les bois devant les tronçonneuses pour empêcher qu'on abatte les vieux chênes», se souvient Olivier Delourme, président à l'époque d'une association locale. Autant d'actes de résistance qui avaient conduit la société à revoir plus d'une fois sa copie et ses tracés.
> 
> Au terme de ce long de bras de fer, c'est donc un *ouvrage coûteux qui a finalement été retenu par Cofiroute, car entièrement enterré, exception faite des zones de péage et de raccordement à d'autres axes routiers. La contrepartie est qu'il faut aujourd'hui payer pour emprunter ce supertunnel*. L'usager doit s'acquitter de *9 euros aux heures de pointe pour parcourir ces 10 km ou qu'il sorte à mi-chemin à Vaucresson*. Un procédé qui devrait en fâcher plus d'un. La solution, selon l'exploitant, est de se munir d'un badge de télépéage qui permet de ne payer que 5 euros si on utilise la moitié du tunnel.
> 
> Pour André Broto, directeur général adjoint de Cofiroute, il y a un intérêt évident à utiliser cet ouvrage. «On gagne du temps. *On met moins de 10 minutes en roulant sous terre contre plus de 45 minutes en moyenne en empruntant les voies en surface»*, dit-il. Cet argument fera-t-il venir les usagers en nombre suffisant? Lors de la mise en service de la première section, Cofiroute dénombrait 15.000 usagers par jour. Elle mise sur un doublement de ce chiffre avec l'ouverture du deuxième tronçon. Pour elle, même coûteux, ce tunnel finira par être rentable. *La société a jusqu'à janvier 2086 pour récupérer les 2,2 milliards d'euros qu'elle a versés*.


http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fr...FIG00809-l-a86voitenfin-le-bout-du-tunnel.php


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It would be better if this tunnel was toll-free. I don't understand where all the tax money goes, nearly all non-urban motorways are financed via tolls while taxes are not subsequently lower.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Also this tunnel is financed by tolls and run privately (Cofiroute?).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes Cofiroute. 

Daily commuters using this tunnel in its entirety will spend € 2.925,- per year in tolls (based on 250 work-days).


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Thats quite a bit for such a short route! Porto to Figueira in Portgual is less than €10 thats for sure.


----------



## Gadiri

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes Cofiroute.
> 
> Daily commuters using this tunnel in its entirety will spend* € 2.925,- per year in tolls (based on 250 work-days*).


Not necessary.



> *Paris - Versailles *
> 
> 22h00 - 06h00 :* 2 euros*
> 06h00 - 07h00 : *6 euros*
> 07h00 - 10h00 : *9 euros*
> 10h00 - 16h00 : *7 euros*
> 16h00 - 21h00 : *9 euros*
> 21h00 - 22h00 : *6 euros*


http://www.cofiroute.fr/cofiroute.nsf/fr/duplex-a86-tarifs.htm

SInce 2007, I taked several times this tube between Rueil Malmaison and A13 but only during night. During day, it's to expensive.

There are *also reduction for suscriber and carpooling*. 

*On A14, carpooling = free toll, not 30% less*. :bash:



http://www.cofiroute.fr/cofiroute.nsf/fr/duplex-a86-covoiturage.htm


----------



## Gadiri

COFIROUTE


----------



## DanielFigFoz

brisavoine said:


> To finance the enormous welfare state. In France someone not working can get more than 800 euros per month from the French state by adding the minimum income for people without revenues + financial help to pay the rent for an apartment. If that person has children, he/she will get even more money from the state. That person also gets totally free healthcare (including dental care and all the most costly hospital treatments). In Greater Paris that person also gets a free pass renewed every 3 months to use all the Métro, RER, train and bus lines within all zones of Greater Paris for free. Last but not least, if that persons happens to rent an apartment inside the City of Paris proper, he/she will get an extra 150 euros benefit from the City of Paris to help pay the rent. There are also Xmas gifts for Xmas (a 150 euros check that adds up to the minimum income), plus some other goodies that I'm forgetting now (free entance in museums, free entrance in the Paris swimming pools, etc.).


The minimum wage in Portugal is €500 a month :lol:and the French unemployment benefits are €800+ a month!:lol:


----------



## brisavoine

No, unemployment benefits are higher. The figure I gave here is "minimum income" (which is what the governement gives you after you run out of unemployment benefits) + housing benefits.


----------



## Gadiri

ChrisZwolle said:


> Let me help you;
> 
> € 9 * 2 times per day * 250 workdays = € 4.500, -35% = € 2.925
> 
> Not to mention the number of times you will pass through for non-commute reasons. (likely in the cheaper hours).


I thought you count that before the 35% reduction. It's really too much.:doh:



x-type said:


> how many tubes does that tunnel have? i know it is on 2 levels, but if it has one toll station, and 3 exit points, it must have divided directions for Vaucresson, and other one(s)


1 tube. The high limit is 2m. 


le figaro


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Social assistance (the lowest benefit available) is around € 800 in the Netherlands as well, plus numerous subsidies for rent, transport, children, etc. Portugal however always lagged behind other western European countries and is now passed by countries like Slovenia in an economical sense. Unemployment benefit depends on your work history in the Netherlands, minimum wage is some € 1200 per month.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Buying power in Portugal is so low .

On the diagram two posts above, there is a section of the tunnel that says _Bande d'arrêt d'urgence_, but on both levels it's in the same place, so in one direction, the hard shoulder is on the wrong side? I guess it's so there's emergency exits on one side right?


----------



## x-type

Gadiri said:


> 1 tube. The high limit is 2m.


if there is one tube, how do they handle with different fees due to exit? i am sure there is no ticket system, but you pay immidiately while entering the tunnel, but how can they be sure they you will take Vaucresson exit when you paid the fee for only that section? what is the system for the tolls?


----------



## Coccodrillo

(DELETE THIS)


----------



## Gadiri

DanielFigFoz said:


> Buying power in Portugal is so low .
> 
> On the diagram two posts above, there is a section of the tunnel that says _Bande d'arrêt d'urgence_, but on both levels it's in the same place, so in one direction, the hard shoulder is on the wrong side? I guess it's so there's emergency exits on one side right?


I taked it on 2 sides, and I didn't remarked that the emergency line was on left on 1 side. 



x-type said:


> if there is one tube, how do they handle with different fees due to exit? i am sure there is no ticket system, but you pay immidiately while entering the tunnel, but how can they be sure they you will take Vaucresson exit when you paid the fee for only that section? what is the system for the tolls?


I don't know. I only taked it when the 1st part of the tunnel was opened Rueil Malmaison - Vaucresson and there was only 1 toll at Rueil Malmaison. And you payed directly at it. No tickets. 

Now there are 3 tolls, at all entries and exits. I guee that you take a ticket and then you pay at the exit.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Gadiri said:


> I taked it on 2 sides, and I didn't remarked that the emergency line was on left on 1 side.


The hard shoulder is on one side because there are the stairs connecting the two decks. In this way people using them in case of danger don't exit on a traffic lane.


----------



## g.spinoza

I am afraid peope will run faster (or slower), ignoring rules of the road, just to arrive at the tunnel within the time period they can pay less... I have no doubt this will happen.


----------



## Morsue

g.spinoza said:


> I am afraid peope will run faster (or slower), ignoring rules of the road, just to arrive at the tunnel within the time period they can pay less... I have no doubt this will happen.


This happens a bit in Stockholm where we have congestion charge that differs depending on the hour. But it's just during the 30 seconds or so before the change. A lot of Spanish autopistas have the same system with flexible fares.


----------



## x-type

so there is ticket system? really weird for such a short section, especially when we consider it's a tunnel


----------



## Fargo Wolf

Gadiri said:


> le figaro


No motorcycles allowed? How come? (2m clearance I'm guessing)


----------



## Coccodrillo

This tunnel is considered dangerous for them, but don't ask me why.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This whole tunnel is substandard. With all the industry around Gennevilliers it should've been a regular tunnel open to all traffic. Right now it's a CEO tunnel for all fancy La Défense jobs.


----------



## Coccodrillo

There was another tunnel planned, for all traffic, starting from near the northern portal of this one to somewhere on the east of the opened tunnel. It was planned as a single tube tunnel, with a single lane per direction, and without rescue tunnel: today it could not be built like this ==> adapring the project would cost more money ==> it has been abandoned.


----------



## Gadiri

ChrisZwolle said:


> This whole tunnel is substandard. With all the industry around Gennevilliers *it should've been a regular tunnel open to all traffic*. Right now it's a CEO tunnel for all fancy La Défense jobs.





Coccodrillo said:


> There was another tunnel planned, for all traffic, starting from near the northern portal of this one to somewhere *on the east of the opened tunnel*. It was planned as a single tube tunnel, with a *single lane per direction*, and without rescue tunnel: today it could not be built like this ==> adapring the project would cost more money ==> it has been abandoned.


If I remember right, since Mt Blanc tunnel catastrophe, this 2*1 tunnel is delayed (also economic issue).

This is the other planned Rueil Malmaison (A 86) - Bailly (A 12) :


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> This whole tunnel is substandard.


And yet it cost so much money.


----------



## brisavoine

Last pictures taken yesterday (Jan. 18) of the Franco-Brazilian bridge over the Oyapock River. The new date set for inauguration is sometime this Spring.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I swear there were more posts under this


----------



## MHN

^^
Maybe some "authorized user" has performed some "cleaning"


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No, that was the International border crossings thread


----------



## christos-greece

I am trying to remember; if in the area had a bridge, the old bridge was collapsed/had static problems?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

ChrisZwolle said:


> No, that was the International border crossings thread


Oh, I see :lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

christos-greece said:


> I am trying to remember; if in the area had a bridge, the old bridge was collapsed/had static problems?


There is/was no fixed link there. Just a ferry service.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Does anyone know what's up with the French highway forum?

http://forum.sara-infras.com/

Been getting an error message all week.

Never mind: It's back.


----------



## Jeroen669

Yesterday, I had a stop on a aire at the A1 (I think it was near Compiègne) with this view.


----------



## max9309

A 432 east of Lyon opens tomorow :cheers:

next step A 406 (Macon southern bypass) in march


----------



## hofburg

Jeroen669 said:


> Yesterday, I had a stop on a aire at the A1 (I think it was near Compiègne) with this view.


lovely. too bad you didn't take more photos.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

max9309 said:


> A 432 east of Lyon opens tomorow :cheers:


Oui!


----------



## christos-greece

^^ And the new autoroute A 432 goes south to?


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Oui!


Has Michelin already updated their mapping? Cool!


----------



## Penn's Woods

christos-greece said:


> ^^ And the new autoroute A 432 goes south to?


It's not all new: it was already open south of the A42 and the south end was, and still is, at the A43, which runs from Lyon to Grenoble. Not knowing the area, but just having looked at enough maps of France, I'd guess the point of the A432 was to serve the airport.

Google Maps (as of this moment) still doesn't show the new segment, so you can see it how it was; I've centered this link at the south end: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=45.672124,5.048218&spn=0.140822,0.264015&z=12


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> Has Michelin already updated their mapping? Cool!


Don't you just love Viamichelin maps? In my opinion they are by far the best in Europe. Google Maps is easier to use but Viamichelin looks better.



Penn's Woods said:


> It's not all new: it was already open south of the A42 and the south end was, and still is, at the A43, which runs from Lyon to Grenoble. Not knowing the area, but just having looked at enough maps of France, I'd guess the point of the A432 was to serve the airport.


Exactly. A432 is also interesting for traffic coming from the north to the Alps without having to mix with local traffic on the Lyon bypass.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> Don't you just love Viamichelin maps? In my opinion they are by far the best in Europe. Google Maps is easier to use but Viamichelin looks better.


Michelin maps are by far the best road maps in the world, although their new maps are of inferior quality compared to their older ones. I don't know why they have changed. The new maps do not show the built-up areas as distinctly as the old ones. :bash:

Old maps with black built-up areas, very neat.









New maps with pinkish blurry built-up areas, not as neat. :bash:









At my parents' place there are some very old Michelin maps from just after WW2 that belonged to my grandfather. One of them in particular shows the Bordeaux area around 1950. I'll try to scan them next time I'm there. It's fascinating to see how the road network has changed around big cities in 60 years.


----------



## christos-greece

Penn's Woods said:


> Has Michelin already updated their mapping? Cool!


I always checked Michelin maps about -mostly- France and other countries in the past; i should check those updated maps...
thanks btw Penn


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Aerials of the new A432 motorway on the east side of Lyon:


A432T206J by APRR, on Flickr


A432T200J by APRR, on Flickr


A432T190J by APRR, on Flickr


A432T173J by APRR, on Flickr


A432T151J by APRR, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

great scenes and viaduct.


----------



## Highwaycrazy

Spectacular Highways in France. Nice scenery too.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Here's another batch of A406 around Mâcon, which will open in a few weeks (or maybe even next week).


DSC_5614 by APRR, on Flickr


DSC_5664 by APRR, on Flickr


DSC_5683 by APRR, on Flickr


DSC_5689 by APRR, on Flickr


----------



## Highwaycrazy

^^

Is that a lowland area, or just flooded by heavy rain?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Those are the floodplains of the Saône River. It is one of the most important tributaries of the Rhône River.


----------



## sotonsi

Highwaycrazy said:


> Is that a lowland area, or just flooded by heavy rain?


It's a cold area, and that's snow, perhaps? Far more likely - if there was lots of flooding then it would be hard to work on it.

WikiSara gives an opening date of next Monday - at this short range, that's probably going to be the case.


----------



## hofburg

I was in Macon already, and saone is a wide river in normal conditions as well.


----------



## Harry

ChrisZwolle said:


> Don't you just love Viamichelin maps? In my opinion they are by far the best in Europe. Google Maps is easier to use but Viamichelin looks better.


It's interesting that we all see things differently. Maybe it's what you're used to that influences a preference like this. I've never really liked Michelin maps; visually, they look distinctive, but I find them quite short on detail - particularly in junction layouts. (My favourite maps here in the UK are the A-Z ones which I find are very good in this area...although I accept that, again, that may just be familiarity playing its part.)


----------



## sotonsi

Ah, but for other places in Europe, A-Z mapping doesn't exist, or isn't very good. Plus it's not online.

I'd use Michelin when the other side of _La Manche_, but A-Z or OS (depending on use) in Britain. Ireland is a bit awkward as the maps tend to be reasonable, but not excellent, cartographically speaking.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are some problems in the Lake Geneva region. The south shore is quite densely populated, and it lacks a good east-west connection. There is an expressway bypass at Thonon, but not at Evián. A bypass is planned at Saint Gingolph.

My proposed route:









This route would have several benefits, first for the local communities which are suffering from through truck traffic in this area, and local holiday traffic. It will also create a better east-west route through this area. 

The current east-west routes are via Switzerland or through the Mont Blanc Tunnel. The Mont Blanc tunnel has a very high truck toll, as much as € 250 for a single passage. Hence, many truckers are taking the Simplon Pass as an alternate route. However, the motorway route via Lausanne is another € 90 more expensive than the route via the south shore of Lake Geneva, hence many truckers drive from French A40 to Swiss A9 via Thonon and Evian. 

In reality, constructing this voie expresse (or full autoroute) is what they call "symptom battling". The actual problem is that the Mont Blanc Route is too expensive, and the Swiss A1/A9 is another expensive alternate. However, I don't see tolls for the Mont Blanc go down nor the truck tolls in Switzerland. (€ 0,72 per km!) Hence, building this new route seems like the best option.


----------



## Suburbanist

I doubt tolls will get cheaper in the tunnels. They spent a hell of money in refurbishments after the fires (1999 Mont Blanc, 2001 Fréjus). Moreover, there is limited capacity for trucks. But it is yet to be seen whether a much cheaper toll could increase traffic and justify the digging of new bores.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are some problems in the Lake Geneva region. The south shore is quite densely populated, and it lacks a good east-west connection. There is an expressway bypass at Thonon, but not at Evián. A bypass is planned at Saint Gingolph.
> 
> My proposed route:
> 
> This route would have several benefits, first for the local communities which are suffering from through truck traffic in this area, and local holiday traffic. It will also create a better east-west route through this area.
> 
> The current east-west routes are via Switzerland or through the Mont Blanc Tunnel. The Mont Blanc tunnel has a very high truck toll, as much as € 250 for a single passage. Hence, many truckers are taking the Simplon Pass as an alternate route. However, the motorway route via Lausanne is another € 90 more expensive than the route via the south shore of Lake Geneva, hence many truckers drive from French A40 to Swiss A9 via Thonon and Evian.
> 
> In reality, constructing this voie expresse (or full autoroute) is what they call "symptom battling". The actual problem is that the Mont Blanc Route is too expensive, and the Swiss A1/A9 is another expensive alternate. However, I don't see tolls for the Mont Blanc go down nor the truck tolls in Switzerland. (€ 0,72 per km!) Hence, building this new route seems like the best option.


Is a really good option. I would call it A41 (An extension of current A41) and I would realign the E62 there, as current Swiss routes have already E-numbers (E25 and E27). But then the once proposed by me E62 Simplon Tunnel should be built, and that is a lot of money, too...


----------



## parcdesprinces

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are some problems in the Lake Geneva region. The south shore is quite densely populated, and it lacks a good east-west connection. There is an expressway bypass at Thonon, but not at Evián. A bypass is planned at Saint Gingolph.
> 
> My proposed route:


This project/idea is :ancient:..... 

It was named Autoroute TransChablaisienne (A400: Annemasse <-> Thonon). But due to its huge cost, and because of environmental issues, it was spectacularly canceled by a last-minute decision in 1997, while the project had been approved and voted and the works was about to begin !

More info. in French about this former project: wikia.com/wiki/Autoroute A400


Today, as far as I know, an expressway (voie rapide) between Annemasse and Thonon is planned, but nothing sure apparently. That's why the Annecy 2018 Olympic bid committee decided to delete Morzine-Avoriaz from their list of venues, because the IOC's evaluation report pointed out the access issues of the area.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A406 around Mâcon opened to traffic today :cheers:

http://bourgogne.france3.fr/info/su...l-a406-ouverte-a-la-circulation-67642529.html


----------



## hofburg

somebody know why A1 and A86 are closed during the night (21h-5h) these days?


----------



## kubam4a1

Would suppose so-called "traffic-calming" initiative, by those who a better for a driver is a worse.

EDIT - been too pesimistic. Just a safety-aimed modernization programm for tunnels.

http://www.tunnels-idf.fr/


----------



## lambersart2005

ChrisZwolle said:


> A406 around Mâcon opened to traffic today :cheers:
> 
> http://bourgogne.france3.fr/info/su...l-a406-ouverte-a-la-circulation-67642529.html


hm, was that really necessary? 12.000 vehicles.... Macon was not the worst served city before already. But, anyhow, nice freeway


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It will eventually connect to N79, which will be turned into a new east-west axis through France. East-west routes in central France aren't very good routes. A89 begins too far south and A85 is too short.


----------



## sotonsi

It already connects to the N79 (which is a VE there) - what doesn't happen is the N79 being fully _Voie Express_ all the way to the A20 - it's piecemeal at the moment. The VE doesn't get far.

They could have made the A6/A40 junction full access as a bodge solution, but the A406 is a far better solution.


----------



## christos-greece

kubam4a1 said:


> Would suppose so-called "traffic-calming" initiative, by those who a better for a driver is a worse.
> 
> EDIT - been too pesimistic. Just a safety-aimed modernization programm for tunnels.
> 
> http://www.tunnels-idf.fr/


Perhaps of a bad weather, snow fall?


----------



## Penn's Woods

A question AND a remark about online maps, in a single post:

I just checked both Google Maps and viamichelin.fr to see how they're handling the numbering on the old A4 through Reims and the new bypass. Google Maps doesn't show the new segment at all. Michelin does, at some scales, but doesn't have a number on it. SO (1) don't assume Google is up to the minute (I was realizing that already) and (2) does anyone know what the numbers are?


----------



## Attus

Two weeks ago I drove Autostrada dei Fiori and then Autoroute Provancale (A8) in France. I find it ridiculous that I had to stop in each 10-15 kilometers at toll stations and pay 1-3 euros for non-human machines that don't accept banknotes but coins. Finally I got out of coins and had to ask some of my passangers to borrow me some.

It was also strange for me that French motorays have steeper uphill/downhill sections and sharper curves than those of other countries like Italy or Germany.


----------



## CNGL

^^ I prefer Italian toll system. You can take a ticket in Ventimiglia and pay in Taranto, in the other end of the country.



Penn's Woods said:


> A question AND a remark about online maps, in a single post:
> 
> I just checked both Google Maps and viamichelin.fr to see how they're handling the numbering on the old A4 through Reims and the new bypass. Google Maps doesn't show the new segment at all. Michelin does, at some scales, but doesn't have a number on it. SO (1) don't assume Google is up to the minute (I was realizing that already) and (2) does anyone know what the numbers are?


I have already assumed that Google is not up to date. They already mark some E07 sections as open and God knows when they will open. But where is Open Street Map (Which is updated when a new road opens!)...


----------



## [email protected]

This annoying multiple toll system exists only on some motorways, like A4, A8 or A13. The biggest part of system doesn't have as much tolls. For example there are no intermediary tolls between Lyon and Paris. Then there are only toll booths when the motorway goes through a free urban motorway system, like the A6/A7 through Lyon.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Mayotte becomes the 101st département of France. Here are a few pics I salvaged from Google Earth.


----------



## hofburg

heh, apart roads and signage, nothing is french.


----------



## ea1969

... plus the policeman in the last photo.

Anyway, in Mayotte there are four routes nationales. RN1, 2 and 3 are on the main island and they all meet at Tsararano and there is another one (RN4) on Petite-Terre island.


----------



## hofburg

_periph_




























f****** tramway 









peripherique on the viaduct









lol, free parkings









no jams for me on my bike :banana:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Do you mind resizing them a bit?


----------



## hofburg

I did.


----------



## Substructure

That's Porte de Versailles toward the southern burbs, right ?


----------



## hofburg

No, porte de pantin. there is also a sign on one photo.  railways are those from gare de l'est.


----------



## Minato ku

And it is the oposite side of the inner city. 
Porte de Versaille = southwest
Porte de Pantin = northeast.

The closest freeway to my home, the Peripherique in Porte d’Orléans.









It is the oldest section of the Periph.


----------



## EUSERB

is this a Belgrade,RS plate? http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu2/hofburg/02042011645.jpg (we got new ones from January 2011,so i'm not very familiar with them)


----------



## hofburg

Minato ku said:


> It is the oldest section of the Periph.


and the most jammed one.  it is only 2x2 at some section and there is A6 joining.


----------



## hofburg

EUSERB said:


> is this a Belgrade,RS plate? http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu2/hofburg/02042011645.jpg (we got new ones from January 2011,so i'm not very familiar with them)


no, only "new" french license plates, with a number of departement.


----------



## Ennis

*N 57​*
N 57 France par gasdub, sur Flickr​

*A 8, Aix-en-Provence​*
Autoroute A8 - A8 Freeway, Aix en Provence par blafond, sur Flickr​

*

N 10​*

N 10 France par gasdub, sur Flickr

*A 10*

A 10 France par gasdub, sur Flickr

*A 64*

A64 in France par Timon91, sur Flickr​
*A20​*
A20 in France par Timon91, sur Flickr​
*A36​*
A 36  par gasdub, sur Flickr​


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Pont Térénez in western France was inaugurated today.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Ça se trouve où ?

(Where's that?/Waar is dat?/Wo ist das?/¿Dónde está?/Gdzie jest?)

Sorry, having a moment....


----------



## CNGL

In Britain Brittany, near Brest.


----------



## eomer

Attus said:


> Two weeks ago I drove Autostrada dei Fiori and then Autoroute Provancale (A8) in France. I find it ridiculous that I had to stop in each 10-15 kilometers at toll stations and pay 1-3 euros for non-human machines that don't accept banknotes but coins.


French people use generally more plastic money than their neigbours.
On French Motorways, the best thing to do is to subscribe to a *T* pass.


----------



## hofburg

... or use carte bleue.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I usually go for the credit card lanes.


----------



## Minato ku

A4 with the metro line 8 above.


----------



## hofburg

kay:


----------



## Minato ku

A86


----------



## christos-greece

A86 is the outer peripherique of Paris?


----------



## hofburg

sure.

peripherique near Porte de Montreuil today


----------



## Cyril

christos-greece said:


> A86 is the outer peripherique of Paris?


What is the Francilienne (A 104) then?
Imo A 86 is the central urban core ring road whereas the A 104 is the Paris agglomeration ring road ( even if not completed yet).
The "peripherique" is a mere ring road around the city of Paris.
In the 1980s another ring road (A 87) was planned between A 86 and A 104...but was cancelled.


----------



## christos-greece

Cyril said:


> What is the Francilienne (A 104) then?
> Imo A 86 is the central urban core ring road whereas the A 104 is the Paris agglomeration ring road ( even if not completed yet).
> The "peripherique" is a mere ring road around the city of Paris.
> In the 1980s another ring road (A 87) was planned between A 86 and A 104...but was cancelled.


Well, i know about the main peripherique of Paris. Why i asking that? Reason: viamichelin map of Paris, below:

paris autoroutes by christos-greece, on Flickr


----------



## piotr71

Let me show you some pictures of motorway A25 and expressway N225, which both are part of E42 European corridor. The report starts several kilometres out of Belgian border on regional road D948 to be finished near Saint-Paul-sur-Mer.























































Just for a while, sorry 









Much better, what a relief.


























































































To be continued soon.


----------



## piotr71

Well, it's getting more interesting. Motorway ends up soon and the quality of surface...ends as well. I don't know whether N225 was built as a motorway and then downgraded to 'N' road because of its substandard quality, or it was designed as a grade separated dual carriageway from the beginning. Anyway, it still carries A25 interchanges' numbering.



















Lower speed limit has been applied.




















































































































Still more to come.


----------



## piotr71

Here you are the last set.
































































































































































That's it for now. Thank you for watching.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Here's something bizarre, discovered in browsing through a road atlas, and something more bizarre, discovered in checking it on Google Maps:

1) Why would two toll roads have this sort of interchange?

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=48.060873,2.667618&spn=0.012936,0.043774&z=15

Generally, you see this sort of thing where there's a toll booth on the interchange - the reason for configuring the interchange like that is to have all the traffic pass through it. If it's an interchange between a toll road and a non-toll road, traffic heading toward the toll road would be (if they're paying the old-fashoned way) getting the ticket that lists rates and will tell the attendant when they exit where they got on or (if they're paying electronically) recording the fact that they're entering the system; traffic heading the other direction will be paying their tolls, either by handing over the ticket they got when they entered the system, along with cash or a credit card, or by having their transponder read. So such a thing at a toll-road-to-toll-road interchange? Are there two toll booths? A single one where you pay for your trip on the road you're leaving and record your entry to the other one...?

2) On visiting Google Maps to check the situation....how the hell old is the satellite imagery?! The A19 through there opened about two years ago, on the photo there's only the faintest suggestion of the right-of-way, like the first step is plowing the field....


----------



## Cedski

It's seems this type of exchanger is better to save some space and compatible with the low level of traffic of this interchange. 
- A simple Cloverleaf should be about the same but the exchanges aren't compatible with the speed limit of 130km/h due to crossing.
- A full stack use lot of space and/or a lot of money for this light amount off traffic.

Finally they chose this compromise between costs/space/traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A77 has an open toll system there if I remember correctly, not sure about A19. It's also possible the toll road operator of the A19 is a different one than on A77.


----------



## Cedski

The twice are an opened toll system, the operator is not the same, but it's not a problem for that, the two operators know where the user take in then take out the motorway for to divide the fee.


----------



## hofburg

they are going to ban the radar signs along the roads.

http://videos.letelegramme.com/player.php?sig=iLyROoafzDA2&overlay=1&rub=0 (nice video inside)

I wonder how this applies for radar warnings in Gps navigation maps.


----------



## Cedski

hofburg said:


> they are going to ban the radar signs along the roads.
> 
> http://videos.letelegramme.com/player.php?sig=iLyROoafzDA2&overlay=1&rub=0 (nice video inside)
> 
> I wonder how this applies for radar warnings in Gps navigation maps.



A french habit, to make laws unapplicable..


----------



## Morsue

hofburg said:


> they are going to ban the radar signs along the roads.
> 
> http://videos.letelegramme.com/player.php?sig=iLyROoafzDA2&overlay=1&rub=0 (nice video inside)
> 
> I wonder how this applies for radar warnings in Gps navigation maps.


I thought the point of radars was to slow down the pace, not to fine as many motorists as possible... :bash:


----------



## hofburg

I think the purpose is to make drivers respect speed limits everywhere, but I doubt that will work. Radar signs are suitable for dangerous sections, so drivers pay attention.


----------



## christos-greece

If they going to ban all radar signs in the roads how they will know if the drivers respect the speed limits? Especially in small towns, villages (and btw what is the speed limit in populated areas in France?)


----------



## Minato ku

50 km/h


----------



## mcarling

Morsue said:


> I thought the point of radars was to slow down the pace, not to fine as many motorists as possible.


I think most politicians view radar speed control as just a kind of tax that the voters don't complain much about. I think the speed control aspect is rarely involved in the political decision about deploying them.


----------



## Morsue

mcarling said:


> I think most politicians view radar speed control as just a kind of tax that the voters don't complain much about. I think the speed control aspect is rarely involved in the political decision about deploying them.


In Sweden that would be political suicide. People don't respect laws they can't comprehend, so the authorities always say that the goal is to lower speeds. And people do respect the speed limits when they're imposed with cameras.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Of course, nobody likes to get fines, for whichever nonsense offense they are. 

90% of the speed cameras are simply on high-revenue locations. Some countries really excel in making them as sneaky as possible.


----------



## mcarling

Morsue said:


> In Sweden that would be political suicide. People don't respect laws they can't comprehend, so the authorities always say that the goal is to lower speeds.


Of course the politicians say the goal is to lower speeds. A politician saying something doesn't make it true.


----------



## [email protected]

Ascent of the Col d'Aspin (Pyrenees), western side:

http://vimeo.com/13412529


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Ambulancing through Paris at rush hour:


----------



## CNGL

[email protected] said:


> Ascent of the Col d'Aspin (Pyrenees), western side:
> 
> http://vimeo.com/13412529


13412529

We can put Vimeo videos here like the YouTube ones.


----------



## hofburg

weekend full of traffic is starting... Paris is all red today already.

a video of traffic forecast from covoiturage.fr:






http://www.europe1.fr/France/Un-long-week-end-charge-sur-les-routes-567561/


----------



## brisavoine

It's done, France and Brazil are now officially connected by land. :banana:

The junction took place on May 28 at 10:30pm local time. Here are the pictures.


----------



## CNGL

brisavoine said:


> It's done, France and Brazil are now officially connected by land. :banana:
> 
> The junction took place on May 28 at 10:30pm local time. Here are the pictures.


Wow, that bridge is just under 7000 kilometers long! 

(Joking, I know French Guiana is still part of France)


----------



## Morsue

hofburg said:


> weekend full of traffic is starting... Paris is all red today already.
> 
> a video of traffic forecast from covoiturage.fr:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.europe1.fr/France/Un-long-week-end-charge-sur-les-routes-567561/


1 point on the map = 1 car?? Seems like it should represent a lot more.


----------



## Highwaycrazy

Are they removing the speed enforcement warning signs in France?


----------



## hofburg

They are just replacing them by speed indicators. 

@Morsue that's because covoiturage.fr is a car-sharing service for drivers and passengers so that map represents only journey planing from that web site. but it gives you an image of traffic forecast in general.


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> They are just replacing them by speed indicators.


No, they are just removing them altogether. The best is to use an application in your phone warning you when there is an incoming radar. Policemen can't check your phone.


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ these apps are going to be removed for the French users (by the providers such as Apple or Android..and not by police officers )...

Anyway, the "best" is to respect the laws i.e. speed limitations... Like I always did ! (I still have my 12 points :bowtie


----------



## hofburg

what about ovi maps on nokia, it has radar warnings integrated.  http://www.20minutes.fr/article/731964/avertisseurs-radars-interdits-transformes ok, they won't be replaced by speed indicators (but I read that somewhere), but with signs indicating dangerous zones.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In my opinion, French speed limits are generally quite reasonable. I like the 90 - 110 - 130 approach better than the 80 - 100 - 120 they use in the Netherlands. 100 just feels awfully slow on a busy, but non-urban motorway.


----------



## parcdesprinces

ChrisZwolle said:


> French speed limits are generally quite reasonable.


Indeed !


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> In my opinion, French speed limits are generally quite reasonable. I like the 90 - 110 - 130 approach better than the 80 - 100 - 120 they use in the Netherlands. 100 just feels awfully slow on a busy, but non-urban motorway.


Well... Here in Spain we use 90-100-120 110 approach, that's really really slow! (I want 120 back!)


----------



## brisavoine

When I drive on the motorway I usually drive 150 km per hour. Slower than that I find it too boring. On non-motorway roads, however, I rarely drive above 100 km per hour, because it's dangerous.


----------



## Highwaycrazy

parcdesprinces said:


> ^^ these apps are going to be removed for the French users (by the providers such as Apple or Android..and not by police officers )...
> 
> Anyway, the "best" is to respect the laws i.e. speed limitations... Like I always did ! (I still have my 12 points :bowtie


It's good to respect the posted speed limit - it's when you stray unintentionally over it. The French Traffic Police will often cite you for doing just 2km over the speed limithno: That's cutting it real short. +/- 10km/h would be the ideal tolerance.


----------



## hofburg

I normaly drive within the limits, but on Slo - Paris trip I drove all the A4 on 150kmh, I didn't have time and patience to go slower, it's just too long.


----------



## brisavoine

The minister in charge of overseas France said that the French state supports the project of a 6-lane motorway to link the northern and western parts of Réunion, in the Indian Ocean. This would be the first 6-lane motorway in overseas France. :uh:

Source: http://www.lemoniteur.fr/147-transp...ut-relancer-les-grands-chantiers-a-la-reunion

PS: Perhaps also the first 6-lane motorway in Africa? Unless there is one in South Africa somewhere...


----------



## brisavoine

More information.

Not only will this motorway have 6 lanes, but it will also be built out in the ocean, to protect motorists from rocks falling from the cliffs along the coast. This is massive engineering. Here is a render.










This 6-lane motorway will be about 12 km in length, built on a viaduct 20 to 60 meters out into the ocean (i.e. 20 to 60 meters off the shore) where the bottom of the ocean is 5 to 14 meters below the surface of the water. The width of the motorway above the viaduct will be 29 meters. There will unfortunately be no standard motorway hard shoulders on boths sides of the motorway (they were scrapped to diminish the cost of this already very expensive motorway). Instead, there will be a BDD, a sort of sub-standard shoulder that will only be about 1 meter wide.










The viaduct will be far enough from the shore to be out of harms way if the entire cliff collapsed. The viaduct is also designed to resist a centennial hurricane with associated mega waves. The hypothesis of a tsunami was also studied. Motorists will drive on average 18 meters above sea-level.

The 12 km of motorway should cost 1.6 billion euros (2.3 billion US dollars). Work is due to start in the end of 2013, and the motorway is due to open to traffic in 2020. Icing on the cake: it will be toll free.

The current road below the cliffs (which the 6-lane motorway is due to replace) has a traffic of 55,000 vehicles per day. Traffic on that road increases by 2% every year.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Thats impressive out on the sea! Réunion already has a good network with the Route des Tamarins and the other one.

Yeah, there are quite a few motorways in South Africa that are wider than that (they have impressive urban motorway systems).










And others


----------



## Morsue

brisavoine said:


> The minister in charge of overseas France said that the French state supports the project of a 6-lane motorway to link the northern and western parts of Réunion, in the Indian Ocean. This would be the first 6-lane motorway in overseas France. :uh:
> 
> Source: http://www.lemoniteur.fr/147-transp...ut-relancer-les-grands-chantiers-a-la-reunion
> 
> *PS: Perhaps also the first 6-lane motorway in Africa? Unless there is one in South Africa somewhere...*


Algeria's east-west motorway is 950 kms of six-lane motorway. Morocco is widening its Rabat-Casablanca stretch to six lanes to be opened in 2012.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Cairo's ring motorway has 8 lanes.


----------



## brisavoine

To our experts: is there another example in the world of a motorway where the lane most to the right is used only for public buses? Since there will be I magine only one bus every 15 minutes at most, I wonder whether this is not a waste or money and capacity.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I believe there was one on M4 in London, but only very short. A waste of capacity indeed. In some countries, buses can run on the shoulder.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> A waste of capacity indeed.


Plus I bet lots of Réunionais will drive on the bus lane (they are less law-abiding than in Metropolitan France), especially at rush hour when there'll be traffic jams (an empty lane on the right will be tempting).

Politicians often have ideas that sound beautiful in theory (public transporation is very fashionable in France now), but which are not very practical in reality. :|


----------



## brisavoine

Anyway, I guess after a few years when they finally realize it's a stupid idea they can alway turn the bus lanes into normal lanes, so it will be a true 6-lane motorways for motorists. It's better to have 6 lanes from the start than just 4.

Another question: are motorways on viaducts out at sea without emergency hard shoulders frequent? What about the motorways built over the sea in the Netherlands? Do they lack hard shoulders?


----------



## Minato ku

brisavoine said:


> To our experts: is there another example in the world of a motorway where the lane most to the right is used only for public buses? Since there will be I magine only one bus every 15 minutes at most, I wonder whether this is not a waste or money and capacity.


Knowing Reunion island, it is wastle of capacity. 
Intercity bus services are crap, even if I imagine a increase of the traffic, Reunion inhabitants are car lover and towns tend to sprawl. It is almost impossible to live correctly without a car.

The former proposed light rail was a good idea but I don't believe that bus will offert any appeal to them.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

brisavoine said:


> Another question: are motorways on viaducts out at sea without emergency hard shoulders frequent? What about the motorways built over the sea in the Netherlands? Do they lack hard shoulders?


We don't really have motorways "over the sea". Most of them are dams and only 1 qualifies as a motorway (A7). Most tunnels in the Netherlands tend to lack shoulders, even those built in the 1990's.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> I believe there was one on M4 in London, but only very short. A waste of capacity indeed. In some countries, buses can run on the shoulder.


Of course, in London it would have been the left lane. 
The "M4 bus lane" was indeed a major gripe of Jeremy Clarkson's on Top Gear. But I believe it's no loger in effect.

There may be bus lanes in the US, but I can't think of any.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> There may be bus lanes in the US, but I can't think of any.


Western end of the I-495 in New York?


----------



## brisavoine

Penn's Woods said:


> There may be bus lanes in the US, but I can't think of any.


The US have carpool lanes. It already makes much more sense.


----------



## ed110220

brisavoine said:


> To our experts: is there another example in the world of a motorway where the lane most to the right is used only for public buses? Since there will be I magine only one bus every 15 minutes at most, I wonder whether this is not a waste or money and capacity.


Yes, the N2 westbound (towards the city) has a lane reserved for buses and taxis from exit 9 (Black River Parkway) to exit 18 (Borcherds Quarry) that operates between 05:30 and 09:00. In Durban the Western Freeway has the same thing in both directions near the centre.

Both of those though are very heavily used urban commuter routes with a lot of buses and taxis.

N2 Settlers Way bus lane

N3 Western Freeway bus lane


----------



## Penn's Woods

[EDIT: Missed the quote tag, apparently - this is for Chris about I-495 in New York]

Hmmm; don't know. You might ask at AA Roads. I'm certain that "busways" - roadways that only carry buses - exist in some cities, perhaps Pittsburgh.

Now that I think of it, New York's main bus terminal - everyone calls it "Port Authority," for the agency that runs it - is right at the Manhattan end of the Lincoln Tunnel. There's certainly a short busway from the tunnel into it, but I suspect that the busway begins in the form of a bus-only lane some distance short of the tunnel in New Jersey. Of course, you're not talking a bus every 15 minutes there; in rush hour, it'd be more like one every 15 seconds.


----------



## Penn's Woods

brisavoine said:


> The US have carpool lanes. It already makes much more sense.


There are so-called "HOV lanes" - "HOV" stands for "high-occupancy vehicles" and it's pronounced like "hove" - all over the country. (In metropolitan areas, of course.)


----------



## brisavoine

Well, I guess it's good they build 6 lanes anyway. If it wasn't for the oh-so-fancy oh-so-politically-correct greener-than-thou bus lanes, they would have built only a 4-lane motorway. With that not very practical idea of bus lanes at least we'll get 6 lanes, and they can always turn the bus lanes into normal lanes for motorists afterwards.


----------



## ed110220

brisavoine said:


> Well, I guess it's good they build 6 lanes anyway. If it wasn't for the oh-so-fancy oh-so-politically-correct greener-than-thou bus lanes, they would have built only a 4-lane motorway. With that not very practical idea of bus lanes at least we'll get 6 lanes, and they can always turn the bus lanes into normal lanes for motorists afterwards.


I don't know anything about Reunion and it's traffic volumes unfortunately, but I guess if you're going to the trouble of building a road over the sea you might as well build it to accommodate future traffic growth for a long time, as widening would be very difficult and expensive.


----------



## brisavoine

Like I said in my post on the last page, traffic on that road is 55,000 vehicles per day (in 2010), increasing 2% per year. So by the time it opens in 2020 traffic on that 6-lane motorway should be 67,000 vehicles per day. I don't know how that compares with other 6-lane motorways in Europe. Perhaps ChrisZwolle could tell us.

Réunion's population was 833,451 in 2010. It will be 925,000 in 2020. It will reach 1 million in 2030. Car ownership is still lower than in Metropolitan France. In 2010 there were 0.49 vehicles (incl. utility vehicles) per people in Réunion vs. 0.60 vehicles (incl. utility vehicles) per people in Metropolitan France. So population growth and the rise in car ownership will combine to increase traffic on the roads.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

60 000 vehicles is a common figure to widen a motorway to 2x3 lanes. Germany also uses this. Portugal even uses 30 000 I believe. However, in the Netherlands 90 000 - 110 000 is also common on 2x2 lanes. I'd say above 70 000 2x3 is better and safer, and above 80 000 it gets congested, somewhat depending on the truck share.


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> I believe there was one on M4 in London, but only very short. A waste of capacity indeed. In some countries, buses can run on the shoulder.


there is something like that in Austria at A7, I remember signs, but it might just be warning for local buses on the motorway.


----------



## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> I believe there was one on M4 in London, but only very short. A waste of capacity indeed.


It quickened journey times by all vehicles slightly by smoothing the flow and thus increasing capacity - nicely explained by CBRD and shown by the actual data measured.

It was got rid of as people didn't understand how moving the narrowing from 3 lanes to 2 lanes to be at a junction, rather than a mile down the road, would increase capacity and it stood as a figurehead scheme in 'the war on motorists', so was scrapped as political measure after the government changed. The reason it was a bus lane was so that you could still have a few vehicles an hour use it - you wouldn't with hatching. What they didn't expect is that it created a larger backlash than things like narrowing the A40 under Target Roundabout by turning running lanes into hard shoulders, or narrowing various motorways with hatching to improve diverges and merges - eg the M3 going down to one lane as you pass under the M25 on your way out of London.

If it was scrapped for the legitimate reason that it moved the bottleneck back and the rear end of the queue was starting to interfere with the Heathrow and M25 area then that would make sense, but alas it wasn't so I have to question whether or not it was a Pyrrhic victory.


Penn's Woods said:


> Of course, in London it would have been the left lane.


No, the one one the M4 that we're talking about was the right hand lane.

The M4's Heathrow spur still has it's bus lane (less controversial as they basically built a new shoulder on the cheap and moved the lanes left, narrowing them) - also on the right. The A329(M) in Reading got downgraded when they put in a short bus lane and proposals for them in the rest of England have tended to be shot down by the Highways Agency.

Across the Irish Sea, it's a different matter and Belfast has a hard-shoulder bus lane on the M1 between junctions 2 and 1.


----------



## radi6404

*Corsica national roads*

I am interested in seeing Corsica national roads and motorways, if there exist some. I know there are great mountains there and would like to see how they pass by or through the mountains. I am wondering why there is no Corsica thread herem but other small countries exist. someone feel free to post some pictures and information


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Because Corsica is not a country.

I've never been there, but you can look on streetview


----------



## CNGL

And, as you can see, radi, your thread is now in the French one. Corsica is France (And why is not part of Italy?)
BTW, there are NO motorways in Corsica.


----------



## x-type

I think there are also no expressways.


----------



## g.spinoza

Why is Ile-de-France allowed to have its own thread and Corsica isn't?


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> Why is Ile-de-France allowed to have its own thread and Corsica isn't?


Because Île de France has a plenty of motorways and expressways, and Corse doesn't?


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> Because Île de France has a plenty of motorways and expressways, and Corse doesn't?


Maybe one can talk about main roads in Corsica...


----------



## radi6404

so no motorways and expressways are in Corsica? And yes, Corsica as such a big island in europe should have it's own thread.


----------



## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> Maybe one can talk about main roads in Corsica...


When Radi's thread appeared last night, I sort of sat back waiting for...someone who likes to post pictures from French Guiana and Réunion...to point out Corsica's as French as they are and way closer to the mainland. ;-)

But we had this discussion about the Île-de-France, and we permitted that, and Corsica *is* a region (a top-level political subdivision) just like the Île-de-France is. Also, there are plenty of national threads where discussion has gone beyond motorways/freeways/autoroutes/the term of your choice to other sorts of roads. Which is fine as far as I'm concerned; we just probably need to change the names of the threads.

So, yes, there are roads to discuss in Corsica, obviously (no motorways/freeways/autoroutes/..., as far as I know, but that shouldn't matter) and I think since we permitted the Île-de-France to have its own thread, we ought to permit one for Corsica too. Which was why I was against an Île-de-France thread (not Corsica as such, but the possibility of 22 regional threads and that's not counting overseas areas that I don't know all of).

My two cents....


----------



## Penn's Woods

CNGL said:


> And, as you can see, radi, your thread is now in the French one. Corsica is France (And why is not part of Italy?)
> BTW, there are NO motorways in Corsica.


I don't know why - historically* - Corsica's not part of Italy, but it's been French since before Napoleon was born there. Imagine how different Europe would have been over the last two centuries if Napoleon hadn't been French.

*And I guess we want to stay away from topics like whether Corsica ought to be part of Italy. Gibraltar and Northern Ireland are enough.

That's another two cents.


----------



## MauricioP

--


----------



## radi6404

so will someone post pictures of the roads in Corsica, how they pass through the mountains in the west and so on?


----------



## brisavoine

CNGL said:


> Corsica is France (And why is not part of Italy?)


Because the Italians sold it to France. They needed cash.


----------



## brisavoine

x-type said:


> I think there are also no expressways.


Actually there ARE expressways in Corsica.


----------



## brisavoine

They are also planning to build another section of motorway around Bastia Airport.


----------



## christos-greece

In road D943 and especially between Buzançais and Châteauroux, is there a plan to update this road into a motorway? After the roundabout in Buzançais the road from 1x1 lane, its a motorway with 2x2 lanes just before entering Châteauroux. The specific road opened for the passage of tour de France. Do you know any more info?


----------



## mcarling

christos-greece said:


> In road D943 and especially between Buzançais and Châteauroux, is there a plan to update this road into a motorway? After the roundabout in Buzançais the road from 1x1 lane, its a motorway with 2x2 lanes just before entering Châteauroux. The specific road opened for the passage of tour de France. Do you know any more info?


I think the question may reduce to:
Is a motorway needed between Châteauroux and Tours?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think Châteauroux and Tours specifically, but France does need better east-west motorways in the central and southern parts of the country.


----------



## Verso

Hm, but there're quite many: Menton (I) - Hendaye (E), Chamonix/Frejus (I) - Bordeaux, Chamonix - La Souterraine (A20), Mulhouse (D) - Nantes. It doesn't look that bad to me.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> I don't think Châteauroux and Tours specifically....


The road from Châteauroux to Buzançais continues to Tours. I have not looked at the AADT numbers, but I would be surprised if they were much higher from Châteauroux to Buzançais than from Buzançais to Tours.


----------



## max9309

christos-greece said:


> In road D943 and especially between Buzançais and Châteauroux, is there a plan to update this road into a motorway? After the roundabout in Buzançais the road from 1x1 lane, its a motorway with 2x2 lanes just before entering Châteauroux. The specific road opened for the passage of tour de France. Do you know any more info?


no no motorway planned here, just a little 2x2 stretch in construction west of Chateauroux in the continuity of the short existing stretch


----------



## christos-greece

max9309 said:


> no no motorway planned here, just a little 2x2 stretch in construction west of Chateauroux in the continuity of the short existing stretch


Probably you have right; as i said the road with 2x2 lanes starts after Buzançais and especially in one big roundabout and ends couple km's just before entering the town of Chateauroux. Thanks anyway...


----------



## Road_UK

True. I drive from Mayrhofen (Tirol, Austria) to Amboise (France, near Tours) a lot. That's starting from A12 exit Zillertal (before Innsbruck) following the E60 nearly all the way, via Innsbruck, Zurich, Basel, and Dijon. But then the E60 takes an exit, and I'm forced going National roads until Orleans... All E60.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> True. I drive from Mayrhofen (Tirol, Austria) to Amboise (France, near Tours) a lot. That's starting from A12 exit Zillertal (before Innsbruck) following the E60 nearly all the way, via Innsbruck, Zurich, Basel, and Dijon. But then the E60 takes an exit, and I'm forced going National roads until Orleans... All E60.


You can't go up the A6 to the piece of the A19 that opened a couple of years ago? Google Maps shows the E60 routed that way now.


----------



## hofburg

I would prefer E54 Paris-Basel being a motorway all the time..


----------



## Penn's Woods

One of the best ideas I've seen in some time:

http://www.lalibre.be/societe/insol...-un-hotel-pour-siestes-sur-l-a6-a-beaune.html

Ikea's offering a place for naps at a service area in France.


----------



## Zagor666

In my ADAC Strassenatlas stands that in France you can drive 130 on french Motorways pulling a Trailer,is that true?In that case i would drive drive the french A35 instead of the german A5 to Switzerland :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's correct. However, it may not be very safe to tow a caravan at 130 km/h with a small car. Few people actually drive that fast, though 100 - 110 is not uncommon. My dad always used to drive between 100 and 110 with a caravan.


----------



## Kevin_01

this weekend is the traditional summer rush in France, particularly on the A6, A7 and A9. However it should not break the record for 2009 with 866km traffic block at 12:30 on August 1.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I noticed this is far less of a "black Saturday" than previous years, or even previous weekends. Of course, there is significant congestion on A7, A9, A10 and A75, but it doesn't seem to be as dramatic as earlier black Saturday events.


----------



## Kevin_01

643 km congestion at 12:00. A7 break after an accident with 1 car and 1 moto.


----------



## Kevin_01

Today was the biggest congestion of 2011 in France, with 723 km at 12:30


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The sheep are going on vacation again!


----------



## mapman:cz

ChrisZwolle said:


> The sheep are going on vacation again!


So, this is the reason for broken right-side line marking in France? Safety distance? Or did they just take advantage of those dashed lines drawn like that for other purpose?


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> The sheep are going on vacation again!


Zut alors !
The French are weird. [kidding]


----------



## max9309

Road_UK said:


> True. But they were taking the p*ss with the A25. State owned roads are generally not all that bad. The second worst road has to be the A6 between Peage and Paris. In my experience anyway.


A 47 between Lyon and St Etienne is also one of the worst motorway in France, it was also the case for A 35 in Alsace but fortunately some works were done, even if there is still a section north of Colmar which is not classified as motorway


----------



## hofburg

A35 is bad indeed.. but it's toll free. I was wondering, are the companys of motorways in France state owned or private? http://www.autoroutes.fr/fr/les-societes-d-autoroutes.htm


----------



## Road_UK

Private as far as I'm aware...


----------



## Penn's Woods

My understanding is they are, or were, partially state-owned. The government may have privatized its share. A little digging on the Internet, if you can read French, should answer that. (www.autoroutes.fr, if memory serves, is sort of the central web site for the autoroute companies in France - it has an English version - but also Wikipedia articles, or the French roads wiki routes.wikia.com....)

How did that happen anyway? Why do some European countries have free (well, taxpayer-funded, I assume) freeways and others are so reliant on expensive toll roads? I'd sort of expect western European countries to have developed similar ways of going about this. Do people from Germany or the Benelux going to or passing through France complain about having to pay so much to use the roads?

Just curious.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

France has the largest paved road network in Europe, over 1 million kilometers of road. The state has a huge task to maintain them, and generally they are in reasonable to good shape, except in some remote or poorer areas like northern France. The French started to create concessionairs in the 1960's to build and operate the first toll roads, such as A7 from Lyon to Marseille. Most were privatized, some very recently (in the past decade). 

The French tolls are generally seen as high, and there are many people shunpiking. However, while the alternate routes are sometimes of high standard, it takes about a day more if you want to travel to southern France from the Low Countries and Germany by national roads. So most people pay it anyway. The French toll roads are generally of superb quality and are - apart from a few busy weekends - generally congestion free. A common trip from Nancy to Perpignan costs about $ 90 in tolls one way. So if you want to go to the Costa Brava from the Netherlands or Germany, you have to expect to pay at least $ 200 in tolls back and forth.


----------



## hofburg

since when you use dollars as a currency? 

I guess motorways would be in worse shape if there weren't so many private companies owning them. but I agree a huge + of toll roads is that they are congestion free, unlike Germany.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> France has the largest paved road network in Europe, over 1 million kilometers of road. The state has a huge task to maintain them, and generally they are in reasonable to good shape, except in some remote or poorer areas like northern France. The French started to create concessionairs in the 1960's to build and operate the first toll roads, such as A7 from Lyon to Marseille. Most were privatized, some very recently (in the past decade).
> 
> The French tolls are generally seen as high, and there are many people shunpiking. However, while the alternate routes are sometimes of high standard, it takes about a day more if you want to travel to southern France from the Low Countries and Germany by national roads. So most people pay it anyway. The French toll roads are generally of superb quality and are - apart from a few busy weekends - generally congestion free. A common trip from Nancy to Perpignan costs about $ 90 in tolls one way. So if you want to go to the Costa Brava from the Netherlands or Germany, you have to expect to pay at least $ 200 in tolls back and forth.


I hope that no one with a right mind from Holland uses the Dijon-Lyon route, when there is a perfectly good route via Paris and Clermont-Ferrand. Shorther in distance, and between Clermont and Montpellier completely toll-free apart from the 5 euros for the Millau Bridge. I use the A75 all the time since they've completed that bridge, the A75 is nice and quiet, and it runs through one of the most beautiful regions of France: The Auvergne and Massif Central.


----------



## [email protected]

Road_UK said:


> True. But they were taking the p*ss with the A25. State owned roads are generally not all that bad. The second worst road has to be the A6 between Peage and Paris. In my experience anyway.


Yes there is a particularly bad 10-km stretch in the southern suburbs south of Evry. The right lane isn't as bad as the two others though. You better keep right if you have a noisy car. 









There used to be a similar stretch on A4 in the Paris suburbs too iirc.

But I guess huge toll fees are even more pain in the ass than such roads. Shunpiking ftw.


----------



## Road_UK

^^

You've hit the nail right on the head, that is exactly the one I meant.


----------



## Minato ku

I wonder if this horrible pavement was put here to slow down cars?
The A2 near the belgian border is also pretty bad, worse than the A47.


----------



## Road_UK

Minato ku said:


> I wonder if this horrible pavement was put here to slow down cars?
> The A2 near the belgian border is also pretty bad, worse than the A47.


At Valenciennes? I don't find it all that bad...


----------



## Daviedoff

Video of the A16 Boulogne - Calais, northern France, some parts have a nice scenery!


----------



## Suburbanist

What is wrong with a31?

Just drove there from Nancy to the Luxembourguese border.

- really bad pavement before Loraine border and around Metz

- absolutely no 130km/h sector wwhatsoever (and I am not talking of temp/variable signs!!)

- 7-19h blank ban on trucks overtakiing

- it is worse than N57 épernai Nancy


----------



## brisavoine

^^We're trying to prevent a Luxembourgian invasion.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> My dad always used to drive between 100 and 110 with a caravan.


Crazy Dutch people and their caravans! 

2 years ago in southern Morocco I met this retired Dutch couple who were returning from Ghana with their caravan. During the entire dinner they only talked about "French colonialism" this, "French colonialism" that. :lol:


----------



## brisavoine

Road_UK said:


> I use the A75 all the time since they've completed that bridge, the A75 is nice and quiet, and it runs through one of the most beautiful regions of France: The Auvergne and Massif Central.


The section between Clermont-Ferrand and Issoire is horrendous though. Sharp turns after sharp turns, very dangerous, all that due to stupid ex-president Giscard d'Estaing who didn't want a motorway near his property up on the plateau, so they used the old winding road in the gorges of the river. :bash:


----------



## Road_UK

^^
That's only a small section though. Shame they've put so many speed camera's on that stretch. I love cruisin' over bendy motorways. A3 between Würzburg and Aschaffenburg is a joy to drive on. Same goes for the AP-8 in northern Spain, Italian A10/A12 around Genova and the A1 between Bologna and Florence.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Have you ever driven on Italian A15 Parma-La Spezia? In terms of bendy motorways I find it more fascinating than the Bologna-Florence.


----------



## Road_UK

^^ No I don't think I have. I had to think there for a minute and got confused with the A11 Viaréggio-Florence, which is not that bendy. How am I doing with this phone anyway? I'm back on the road now, currently in Holland, heading for England later. I miss my Zillertal mountains already. By the way Chris: these new roadsigns in Holland suck big time!


----------



## hofburg

what phone is that?


----------



## sotonsi

It's maps being lame. then again, this is the only sign that's explicit. Either way, there's blue signs saying Angers/Samur and A10 Tours throughout.


----------



## alserrod

Bielsa-Aragnouet tunnel will be opened tomorrow December 1st.

I think it is the third time they close the tunnel for several months on autum and they just can make a short part of refurbishment.

It will be opened one way only



The official tunnel web page is:
http://www.bielsa-aragnouet.org/index.php?idi=3


----------



## Zagor666

A40 St.Gervais les-Bains - Cluses,View Direction North


----------



## GROBIN

DEL


----------



## GROBIN

Careful when coming here guys ! More radars hno:, higher fines. 

Some fines increase from 35 EUR to ... 135 EUR, and some others (like driving on the emergency lane) from 135 EUR to around 1500 EUR !



> Libération:
> 
> Infractions routières: sanctions alourdies et associations critiques
> 
> PARIS (AFP) - Téléphoner au volant, utiliser un détecteur de radars, regarder un film en conduisant vont dorénavant coûter cher en amendes et en points du permis de conduire, selon un décret paru mercredi que les associations d'usagers de la route critiquent durement.
> 
> *(...)*
> 
> Plusieurs mesures du décret paru mercredi au Journal officiel concernent la vigilance au volant. Téléphoner appareil en main en conduisant sera puni de *135 euros d'amende et du retrait de 3 points du permis *(contre *35 euros d'amende et deux points auparavant*).
> 
> Mais le kit mains-libres reste autorisé, au grand dam de la Ligue contre la violence routière (LCVR), qui rappelle que les risques sont les mêmes.
> 
> Un conducteur ayant dans son champ de vision un écran autre que le GPS - *télévision allumée, console de jeux vidéo ou smartphone utilisé pour lire une vidéo*, comme c'est parfois le cas de certains routiers - écopera d'une amende de *1.500 euros *(contre *135 précédemment*) et d'un retrait de *trois points *au lieu de *deux*. La gendarmerie relève près de 300 infractions de ce type par an.
> 
> Concernant la vitesse, *la détention, le transport et l'usage des avertisseurs de radars sont interdits*. En cas de non respect, il pourra en coûter *1.500 euros*, le retrait de *six points *et la saisie de l'appareil.
> 
> Grâce à des mises à jour des logiciels, les avertisseurs deviendront des "assistants d'aide à la conduite" signalant les zones dangereuses, où peuvent se trouver des radars fixes mais pas forcément. L'Intérieur fournira courant janvier une carte de ces zones dangereuses aux fabricants.
> 
> Sur autoroute, l’amende sanctionnant la *circulation sur la bande d’arrêt d’urgence ou son franchissement* passe de *35* à *135 euros*. Les sociétés d'autoroute ont financé plusieurs campagnes sur ce thème pour lutter contre les accidents touchant leur personnel.
> 
> Tout conducteur d’un véhicule obligatoirement équipé d’un éthylotest antidémarrage (condamnés, chauffeurs d'autocars récents...) doit utiliser ce dispositif préalablement au démarrage. Ne pas le faire (en neutralisant l'éthylotest ou en faisant souffler un tiers) coûtera 135 euros - pour le chauffeur comme pour le complice.
> 
> Pour les motards (machines de plus de 125 cm3), le port d'un équipement rétroréfléchissant d'au moins 150 cm2 sera obligatoire en 2013, sous peine d'une amende de *68 euros *et du retrait de *2 points*. Une décision "stupide et à nouveau bricolée dans la précipitation", a dénoncé la Fédération française des motards en colère (FFMC).
> 
> A partir du 1er juillet, la taille des plaques d'immatriculation des deux-roues augmentera. Seuls les véhicules neufs ou les réimmatriculations sont concernés, le décret n'impose pas le changement des plaques existantes. *L'usage de plaques non conformes coûtera alors 135 euros d'amende, contre 68 auparavant.*
> 
> *(...)*


[email protected] about new radars on undercover police cars

hno:. No more pleasure driving here ... I wonder what *Road_UK* will say about it. Personally, this makes me uke:


----------



## gigilamoroso

hno:. *No more pleasure driving here* ... I wonder what *Road_UK* will say about it. Personally, this makes me uke:[/QUOTE]

yeah, you're right : the pleasure to drive while watching a movie or while being in a phone-call and bang : oh sorry i ran away a motorcycle and guess what the guy is dead! No more pleasure driving yeah, that's the point, that's exactly the point.

You can go to North Korea or Turkmenistant if you want. There you will be free to phone and watch a movie while driving :bash:


----------



## hofburg

:nuts: nokia maps which I use for gps, has radar warnings, and not only dangerous zones. so that it's forbidden now??


----------



## GROBIN

gigilamoroso said:


> yeah, you're right : the pleasure to drive while watching a movie or while being in a phone-call and bang : oh sorry i ran away a motorcycle and guess what the guy is dead! No more pleasure driving yeah, that's the point, that's exactly the point.
> 
> You can go to North Korea or Turkmenistant if you want. There you will be free to phone and watch a movie while driving :bash:


Maybe I'll go there one day to visit 

Moreover, I wasn't talking about what you mentioned above when talking about the pleasure of driving. I'm not the kind of guy that watches movies or talks on the phone while driving (unless I've got a hands-free kit, which is currently not the case).

I was talking about the fact that instead of being concentrated on the road & its surroundings, you'll be concentrated only on your speedometer, not to cross 5 km/h over the speed limit ... If you love driving like that, then come here !



hofburg said:


> :nuts: nokia maps which I use for gps, has radar warnings, and not only dangerous zones. so that it's forbidden now??


Yes hno: The policemen don't have the right to tell you to show them what you have on your map as long as you didn't commit any crime according to the French law. But if they drive beside you (most of the time on civil motorbikes) and see you're using anti-radar stuff, you'll get the fine hno: Politicians are getting completely crazy as this was the last thing that kept people awake & at least a bit concentrated on the road until now ...


----------



## Road_UK

gigilamoroso said:


> hno:. *No more pleasure driving here* ... I wonder what *Road_UK* will say about it. Personally, this makes me uke:


yeah, you're right : the pleasure to drive while watching a movie or while being in a phone-call and bang : oh sorry i ran away a motorcycle and guess what the guy is dead! No more pleasure driving yeah, that's the point, that's exactly the point.

You can go to North Korea or Turkmenistant if you want. There you will be free to phone and watch a movie while driving :bash:[/QUOTE]

I usually stick between 130 and 140 in France anyway. Never ever got a speeding fine there. The only problems I'm having there is French customs wasting my time at toll booths and Channel ports. The French used to be maniacs, these days they're not. Chirac's war on dangerous driving has worked. Italy will be next.


----------



## mcarling

In my opinion, the situation in which drivers pay attention to the road and other drivers, pedestrians, etc. in the absence of police is much safer than the situation in which drivers are so fearful of the police that their concentration is focused on the speedometer and looking out for police, oblivious to other ordinary drivers, cyclists, pedestrians, etc.

I do think watching movies, smoking, holding a telephone in one's hand, etc., while driving should be illegal, but that doesn't mean there should be police everywhere.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The 4 kilometer A813 near Caen opens to traffic today.

http://basse-normandie.france3.fr/info/caen--l-a813-inauguree-aujourd-hui-71891132.html


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Chirac's war on dangerous driving has worked. Italy will be next.


Police patrols have no money to buy fuel for their vehicles. And even if they had money, I don't think such a war could be won in Italy.


----------



## gigilamoroso

mcarling said:


> In my opinion, the situation in which drivers pay attention to the road and other drivers, pedestrians, etc. in the absence of police is much safer than the situation in which drivers are so fearful of the police that their concentration is focused on the speedometer and looking out for police, oblivious to other ordinary drivers, cyclists, pedestrians, etc.
> 
> I do think watching movies, smoking, holding a telephone in one's hand, etc., while driving should be illegal, but that doesn't mean there should be police everywhere.


thanks for sharing your joke ; it is indeed worldwide scientifically proven that lax traffic laws enforcement leads to very few highway fatalities.

it's funny how guys who manage to keep a constant speed of so 200 km/h or any speed they do want to drive are the same who cry and yell because it's soooooooooooo difficult to keep a constant speed when this speed is a speed limit. There's something that magically makes their foot going up or down in the gas pedal when they try to follow a speed limit.

Besides speeders have very special cars : in their cars the speedometer is not located as mine for instance. You know, my speedometer is located just in front of me and just below the front window so that i'm able to check my speed and at the same time notice what's going on around. Whereas in speeders cars the speedometer is located behind them or very close to pedals so that those poor guys come to an accident each time they check their speeds.

conclusion : 

-for the first problem, if you can't manage to keep a constant speed at the speed limit level, well : practice! It's easy, you can do that! C'mon, Yes you can! piece of advice : i'm sure you manage to do so when you're speeding, so i give you my secret : it's the same when you decide to follow the speed limit!!! woo-ooo!! If you don't manage to keep your speed at the speed limit, You should urgently check for a premature parkinson desease. Scientists call it the parkibson-speed-limit desease.
-for the second problem, you should buy another car : you know, the cars with the speedometers correctly located are the ones for you!

:bash:


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> Police patrols have no money to buy fuel for their vehicles. And even if they had money, I don't think such a war could be won in Italy.


It's going in the right direction though. I feel more comfortable on the A1 between Florence and Naples now, then I did five years ago.


----------



## GROBIN

@*other users* - sorry for this long post. :nuts: I'll try to be shorter next time 



gigilamoroso said:


> thanks for sharing your joke ; it is indeed worldwide scientifically proven that lax traffic laws enforcement leads to very few highway fatalities.


These are no jokes. We're talking about road fatalities & regular people's money. Stating people having a different opinion than you are _joking_ is just ridiculous. I should return you your own previous statement: _"go to North Korea"_ & you'll remember what democracy is ! :lol:

More details on new radars

I agree fully with *mcarling*. & this is even more true for new drivers. For instance, my little sister is so afraid of going over the speed limit she watches her speedometer too much & sometimes, she can't manage to keep it straight. Imagine how it can be in a couple of months.

@*Road_UK*: this war made fatalities decrease a lot in France over the past years EXCEPT on motorways (more & more people getting asleep). I'm not saying there should be no radars at all. I'm just saying this is the point where putting such a system can do more harm than good.



gigilamoroso said:


> it's funny how guys who manage to keep a constant speed of so 200 km/h or any speed they do want to drive are the same who cry and yell because it's soooooooooooo difficult to keep a constant speed when this speed is a speed limit. There's something that magically makes their foot going up or down in the gas pedal when they try to follow a speed limit.


Because of one, very simple reason: on motorways, there are:
- no pedestrian crossings, 
- no collision-intersections 
& if every parameter of what should be a motorway is met:
- a large hard shoulder, 
- no harsh curve & 
6no risk of collision with big animals. 

All this makes such a journey already monotonous. Moreover, in general, when you drive fast on motorways, you don't keep at constant speed because you're fully concentrated on the road & reacting much more promptly to anything that happens on it. Also anticipating much more. 

If you drive a Chevrolet Matiz 0.8i 54bhp at 130km/h, you'll feel it is dangerous as it hardly has stability at such speeds, bad brakes & the engine's rpm are quite high, so you won't get asleep for sure. Even driving 110 km/h you'll be fine. & I'd even add: more secure ! :lol:

But if you drive a Saab 9-5 estate 2.3t 185bhp or - even better - an old Saab 9000 2.3 turbo 200bhp, the rpm are much lower which makes the car much less noisy. The stability is much better & the brakes too. With such a car, you can get asleep very easily at such speeds ! So where is the security ? Nowhere IMHO ! hno: 



gigilamoroso said:


> Besides speeders have very special cars : in their cars the speedometer is not located as mine for instance. You know, my speedometer is located just in front of me and just below the front window so that i'm able to check my speed and at the same time notice what's going on around. Whereas in speeders cars the speedometer is located behind them or very close to pedals so that those poor guys come to an accident each time they check their speeds.


You seem to be a very young but quite frustrated guy. Some will be very curious to know which car you drive, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is: not only you hardly admit people have different opinions than yours, but also you close your eyes & mind to the fact that each car & each driver is completely different and has different driving skills.

Furthermore, such solutions as they're taking here in France may be O.K. for small surface countries with high population density like the Netherlands. But try to travel 900km within such a big country like France constantly watching your speedometer (which I already do). You'll feel even more tired than driving through Germany all the time fully concentrated @200 km/h or more.

& as some journalists stated here, even the UK is coming back from the "all-radar policy" because of it being - at this point - very costly & counter-productive (people watching the speedometer (should I say the speedomile ? :lol instead of the road. So imagine what will be here, where speed cameras will not be shown anymore beforehand, lots of undercover police cars & a 5 km/h to 6% tolerance. Easy & nice, you say ? ... Please ! ... :lol:




gigilamoroso said:


> conclusion :
> 
> -for the first problem, if you can't manage to keep a constant speed at the speed limit level, well : practice! It's easy, you can do that! C'mon, Yes you can! piece of advice : i'm sure you manage to do so when you're speeding, so i give you my secret : it's the same when you decide to follow the speed limit!!! woo-ooo!! If you don't manage to keep your speed at the speed limit, You should urgently check for a premature parkinson desease. Scientists call it the parkibson-speed-limit desease.


Conclusion: remember I'm against high speed within built-up areas & out of motorways. But I'm also against bashing people for speed on motorways. Most of the speed war is on motorways in France *just for money*, because less than 3% of road fatalities here are on motorways.

Moreover, we're not like Germany where they have urban little dual carriageways with traffic lights every 2km limited to 70km/h. Here, the *same ones are limited to 50* with ALWAYS some speed trap at the end. I've never seen any radar near a school here, whatsoever ...

I'm also pretty confident you're not the kind of guy who drives a lot.



gigilamoroso said:


> -for the second problem, you should buy another car : you know, the cars with the speedometers correctly located are the ones for you!
> 
> :bash:


& stop using :bash: all the time, it looks ludicrous & discredits your statements, even if they may look good for someother SSC users. Even more than your cheap provocations above like talking about Parkinson disease or calling us speeders. If I'd be a speeder here, I'd have no more driver's license ...


----------



## Road_UK

I speed sometimes. Don't you? And once in a while I have to pay a fine. So be it, it's on of these little things. I never exceed 40+ km/h though, as in most countries it means that licence will be lost. And I find the speed limit in France comfortable enough to stick with the limit, or go above no more then 10 km/h. Only the dual carriageways with 110 km limit I intend to go above a bit more then I should, but it never got me into trouble (yet) - and I did spend a lot of time driving in all corners of France, from Nantes to Nancy and Calais to Cannes over and over again.

It may get a bit boring at times, as you say - which could explain the efforts to place large brown signs everywhere, pointing the driver out to mountain peaks, vinyards, castles and historical events that has taken place where you are at that particular time.


----------



## mcarling

Some people are unable to think for themselves, so they like to be told at what speed to drive, by bureaucrats who have never seen the road, let alone have any idea of immediate road conditions, the vehicle, or the driver's skill level.


----------



## GROBIN

^^

+1


----------



## [email protected]

Returning back from six months in Germany, the hardest for me is to stick to 90 km/h instead of 100 km/h on straight country roads. For motorways no problem, my car is too old to allow safe 130+ speeds. Overall speed limits do make more sense in Germany, but tbh I find Netherlands or the UK worse than France in this domain. The most annoying things to me are the roundabouts and speed bumps you find everywhere in this country "to break the speed".
Dunno your car Grobin but when driving a "normal car" I always put the speed limiter on in France. Heck, I even use the cruise control, something I wouldn't dare doing in Germany. With some music or good company the journey isn't really boring.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ If looking at the speedometer is stressing, get a car with cruise control and speed limiter  Most Renaults and Peugeots, for instance, have both.


----------



## mcarling

My car is speed limited to 250 km/h. Fortunately, the limiter kicks in gently.


----------



## GROBIN

[email protected] said:


> Returning back from six months in Germany, the hardest for me is to stick to 90 km/h instead of 100 km/h on straight country roads. For motorways no problem, my car is too old to allow safe 130+ speeds. Overall speed limits do make more sense in Germany, but tbh I find Netherlands or the UK worse than France in this domain. The most annoying things to me are the roundabouts and speed bumps you find everywhere in this country "to break the speed".
> Dunno your car Grobin but when driving a "normal car" I always put the speed limiter on in France. Heck, I even use the cruise control, something I wouldn't dare doing in Germany. With some music or good company the journey isn't really boring.


Indeed, with good company, journeys here (unless they are of less than 300km) are nice. But if you drive alone on French motorways, it is always horrible ! Even with good music ! & I agree with you: the Netherlands are even worse. The U.K. are O.K. as long as you take in account the tolerance on motorways 

If I drive my old, almost 16-year-old Saab 9000, it is even more horrible on motorways because it is very quiet and almost too comfortable, so you can easily get asleep at 130 km/h. & no cruise control !
It is not the case with my almost 8-year-old Zafira OPC, the rpm's of which are higher than the Saab on 5th gear. & I've got a cruise control. France, the Netherlands & Slovakia are the only countries in which I used it. & just because I don't want to break up the tolerance over the speed limit. However, I'm not a big fan of that. I prefer driving in Germany for instance, which I already said 

In the French cities, towns & villages, driving is smoother with the Saab, with which you can hardly feel any potholes or humps. With the Zafira OPC, I have to slow down to less than 10km/h, because its shock-absorbers are very hard :lol: Very risky to fall into a pothole with the rims the OPC-versions have ...

Both cars are a pleasure to drive on French secondary roads (_routes de campagne_)  Even during heavy rain !

P.S.: a good car for the Paris region is a 3-cylinder Chevrolet Matiz  54bhp, very noisy from 100 km/h on (& the 3-cylinder sound is similar to a 6-cylinder one ). & very small to park !  I drove one about 3 months ago, from my garage :lol:



mcarling said:


> My car is speed limited to 250 km/h. Fortunately, the limiter kicks in gently.


Which German car is that ?


----------



## mcarling

GROBIN said:


> Which German car is that ?


Audi


----------



## ptscout

A nice Youtube-Channel with Roadmovies (motorcycle) of 974

http://www.youtube.com/user/bklteam

http://g.co/maps/rx6pt





Littoral
http://g.co/maps/g4qsm


----------



## mcarling

Does anyone know when the new N7 is due to open between Moulins and Varennes-sur-Allier?


----------



## ptscout

Another great channel from Reunion http://www.youtube.com/user/974runmike

Route des Tamarains




with usual french speed control at 2:10 (Mesta radar installed in Opel Astra or Ford Mondeo)


----------



## ptscout

A4 direction Strossburi





BTW: Nouveautes from the GCO-Projekt: http://www.dna.fr/edition-de-strasbourg/2012/01/14/le-gco-concede-a-vinci


----------



## brisavoine

The END of France and of its road network (as of June 2011).


----------



## hofburg

ptscout said:


> A4 direction Strossburi


interesting you've written in Alsatian. why?


----------



## GROBIN

^^

Why ? You prefer Straßburg ? 

P.S.: I must do a research whether there are still a lot of people speaking Alsatian ... I doubt of it.


----------



## [email protected]

I can't say I know that region deeply but every time I was there there I heard at least some people conversing in Alsatian. It's certainly not a dead language.


----------



## -Pino-

France 3 has a daily 5-minute tv show in Alsatian (here). Some of the locals that get interviewed speak the language, others prefer to be interviewed in French. I do think, however, that many more people have passive knowledge. With a basic knowledge of French and a good understanding of German, I for myself can follow it fairly well.


----------



## ptscout

South Tirol saved his language much better although the national reprisals where much higher. Italian is out of Bozen majority a foreign language. In Alsace there only a few of the older generation who not speak any french.
The younger generation has no big knowledge and therefore problems on the labor market between Karlsruhe and Basel.


----------



## parcdesprinces

GROBIN said:


> I must do a research whether there are still a lot of people speaking Alsatian ... I doubt of it.


According to a study made in 2002, there are approx. 39% (500,000) of the population in Alsace who can speak Alsatian + 45,000 in France outside Alsace (which makes the Alsatian the second regional language in France after the Corsican language which is spoken by approx. 45% of the people in Corsica)

Here are, except French, the spoken languages in Alsace (regional ones in bold)










And here is the intergenerational transmission percentage of the French language vs the Alsatian language based on year of birth (from 1915 to 1975)









Orange: Alsatian without French
Red: Alsatian usually + French
Dark Green: French + Alsatian occasionally
Light Green: French without Alsatian.


----------



## GROBIN

!!! So many German speakers ? Maybe a lot of Germans living in Eastern France & working on the German side ?

Anyway, it's nice to see Alsatian isn't dead !


----------



## mcarling

GROBIN said:


> Anyway, it's nice to see Alsatian isn't dead !


Before you get too excited, consider than Alsatian is moribund. By about 2050 or 2060, Alsatian will be dead.


----------



## LtBk

On the topic of speed enforcement, are there places regions or departments in France where enforcement is rare?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

GROBIN said:


> !!! So many German speakers ? Maybe a lot of Germans living in Eastern France & working on the German side ?
> 
> Anyway, it's nice to see Alsatian isn't dead !


I think a lot of Alsatians can speak standard German


----------



## GROBIN

mcarling said:


> Before you get too excited, consider than Alsatian is moribund. By about 2050 or 2060, Alsatian will be dead.


Yes & no. Because with regionalisms being reborn in Europe, I'm not sure it will be extinct so fast ...


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Yeah, you could've said the same about Welsh


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^The guys on Top Gear would have us believe they're particularly draconian. Particularly with Brits trying to get to Calais.

I'd take that, like everything on Top Gear, with a grain of salt, though.


----------



## parcdesprinces

verreme said:


> Vinci also runs many underground car parks in France.


_Vinci_ is also the largest construction company in the world ! :yes:


----------



## sotonsi

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^The guys on Top Gear would have us believe they're particularly draconian. Particularly with Brits trying to get to Calais.


Not really, Clarkson was going rather fast the time he got pulled over by the French police and he thought it was a fair cop.

The stories about picking on British plates and letting French speeders on the A26 more leeway come from all sorts of (normally unreliable) sources, though the A26 does seem to get more police attention than other autoroutes.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^In one of the current season's episodes (well, the season currently airing on BBCAmerica, which I think is a few months behind), one of them joked that "everyone who's ever been stopped for speeding in France" is synonymous with "everyone who's ever been in France."


----------



## Road_UK

Brits just arriving in Calais from the ferry usually drive really badly, slowly and not sure where they're going. On the industrial estates, where all the booze warehouses are, they often drive on the wrong side of the road, in particular the daytrippers. 

Brits coming back from various locations around France, usually drive way too fast, together with the Belgians. Especially on the A16 and A26.


----------



## verreme

hofburg said:


> normally, as in most eu countries.


I'd say more than most EU countries.

Having driven in Spain, France, the UK, Germany, Italy and Sweden, France is where I saw most police on the roads, and by far where I encountered most speed traps. In 2 different days, in 200 kilometers of A10 I saw six speed traps in six _different_ locations. And the setup had always something different, be it the car or the speed measuring device.

Spain or Germany are far more lenient when compared to France.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

On the other hand, French speed limits are mostly reasonable, though there are always exceptions like A31 Nancy - Luxembourg.


----------



## Road_UK

You can get away with 140 on most autoroutes in France. I always have anyway. Sure, there are a few speed traps, but if you do get pulled, and you haven't exaggerated your speed, they often let you off with a warning. 

Austria and Holland, that is where the real nazi's are, when it comes to speed traps. And in Holland, speeding fines are astronomical. 

Police presence are mostly in Austria and Germany, while in the UK, they like to work with CCTV camera's instead.


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^In one of the current season's episodes (well, the season currently airing on BBCAmerica, which I think is a few months behind), one of them joked that "everyone who's ever been stopped for speeding in France" is synonymous with "everyone who's ever been in France."


Never been stopped in France... but I drove only 1500 km there...


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> On the other hand, French speed limits are mostly reasonable, though there are always exceptions like A31 Nancy - Luxembourg.


Yes, they are not too low. But cops apply no tolerance (5% for >100 km/h). If the limit is 130 km/h, you will be ticketed from 138 km/h onwards. That's why you see almost no speeding in French motorways, whilst you will see much of it in, for example, Germany or the UK.

Plus, French speed traps (normally a cop looking at traffic with laser _jumelles_ -binoculars-that will catch you from 1 km) are barely visible. And they are everywhere.

As for being pulled over in France, I know quite a few cases. My dad himself was ticketed back in 2000, when the French drove like there were no speed limits, for driving 157 km/h in A62 west of Toulouse. As for me, I've been very lucky for now.


----------



## hofburg

that's why I always drive 137 km/h in France.  only one pull over for me, when I was driving 30 km/h in a town in _Pays de la Loire_, might be because of the strange licence plate.  and they even drink-tested me, for the first time in my life.


----------



## verreme

I don't usually push tolerances that much. You know, speed cameras are very precise, but a 0,5% error and they get you. That's why tolerances exist indeed.


----------



## Glodenox

What exactly is the rule on using direction indicators on French motorways? When I drove in southern France 2 weeks ago, it seemed like nobody really knew what the correct rule was as I saw:

Using signal only when changing lane, so 2 separate times to overtake someone on the right or middle lane: seen a few cars do that
Using left indicator all along while overtaking a car, even though there are 3 lanes and there is still a lane on the left free: seen very often, seemed confusing for people in the left lane to me
Using left indicator when moving a lane to the left, but no indicator when "going back" to the original lane: seen very often. Changing a lane without indicator? No thank you. And certainly not when the French very often (at least 8 times in 100km) leave little more than a meter between cars when they move into the previous lane again.

This became more apparent to me than usual since we were driving about 10kph less than allowed as we still had a lot of time left and wanted to save some fuel. Normally, we would have been a better part of the traffic flow and this wouldn't have caught my eye.

I've read several french forums dating from 2005 up to a month ago, and it seems to me that nobody really knows what the official rule is... The law requires the use of the direction indicator when changing lane, but it doesn't mention for how long, in which direction, etc. apparently (note: I only read this in a forum post, I didn't actually look it up). One person also said he was fined for not using his right indicator when "going back" to his previous lane after an overtake.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I once read they taught (or are still teaching) in driving schools that "the indicator should be used for the duration of the overtaking". In most European countries, indicators are only used when changing lanes. Another issue is: what is the definition of overtaking (passing)? Staying in the middle lane and go with the flow could be explained as overtaking the right lane, thus the indicator should be on as long as you are not in the right lane, which makes very little sense. Imagine a 4-lane motorway with all vehicles on the left 3 lanes having their indicator on the entire time. It would be a mess.


----------



## hofburg

I experienced another rule today: if you see a police control on the other side of the motorway, start flashing lights as a maniac. 

I was driving on A4, and all the sudden everybody on the other side of the motorway starts flashing lights at me. this went on for like 5 min, so I started to worry if there's something wrong with my car. I ended stopping my car on the shoulder and checking if everything is ok, 500m before the police control, apparently. 

they were really flashing like crazy


----------



## eskandarany

hofburg said:


> they were really flashing like crazy


They do this in Egypt too.
And I think they tend to leave the indicator on for 'the duration of overtaking' too.
I expect that these are probably unwritten rules.


----------



## [email protected]

ChrisZwolle said:


> I once read they taught (or are still teaching) in driving schools that "the indicator should be used for the duration of the overtaking". In most European countries, indicators are only used when changing lanes. Another issue is: what is the definition of overtaking (passing)? Staying in the middle lane and go with the flow could be explained as overtaking the right lane, thus the indicator should be on as long as you are not in the right lane, which makes very little sense. Imagine a 4-lane motorway with all vehicles on the left 3 lanes having their indicator on the entire time. It would be a mess.


I'm not sure about it, but think that people were taught to use indicators for the duration of the overtaking before, but not anymore. I had my driver's license three years ago and the rule was only to use them when changing lines. Then my mother lets on them all through the overtaking process, even on three-lane motorways, which I find very confusing and a bit dangerous. Not to mention that she overtakes _rather_ slowly. We had a discussion about this and I therefore asked my parents. They said that they were taught to overtake this way. 
I've noticed that most "old" people let the indicators on whereas most young drivers use them only when changing line (when they use them at all :|). Maybe it's just me? :dunno:


----------



## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> I experienced another rule today: if you see a police control on the other side of the motorway, start flashing lights as a maniac.


They do that in Italy too, but that pisses me off. If you want no tickets, just stay within the limits. I for sure don't warn others. If they go too fast they deserve a ticket and warning them is none of my business.


----------



## Road_UK

I am grateful that people flash to warn me, and return the favour as well. In some areas, law enforcement really don't have anything better to do, and it saves people a lot of money. It certainly saved me a lot of money...


----------



## verreme

Yes, I warn people too. I mean, sure breaking the law is wrong, but I do break it and thus feel some sympathy for others who act like me.


----------



## F81

Slovenia, like Austria, Hungary and Switzerland are comparatively small.

In begger countries such as France or Italy, you either fix a hundred euro vignette for one week, either you don't cover your costs. It also discriminates those who drive a short stretch and those who drive all the way across the country.

Personally, I prefer the per-km toll. Also I don't like too much to stop at a rest area near the border to purchase the vignette.

My best choice would be a pan-european single radio device (similar to Italian Telepass, French Telepeage or the one used by trucks and busses in Austria) which could be used on all European motorways network paying per km toll or the vignette price when you cross the border.


----------



## hofburg

I didn't suggest France to introduce vignettes, but they clearly have a problem with traffic staying off motorways because of high tolls.


----------



## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> I didn't suggest France to introduce vignettes, but they clearly have a problem with traffic staying off motorways because of high tolls.


My Italian friend drove all the way from Paris to München avoiding French motorways to save money... but he's something like Scrooge...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A4 can easily be avoided via N4, which is a 2x2 voie expresse for quite some lengths. It's even shorter to Nancy and Strasbourg. According to Google Maps the difference is only 30 minutes on the 800 kilometer drive from Paris to München.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> A4 can easily be avoided via N4, which is a 2x2 voie expresse for quite some lengths. It's even shorter to Nancy and Strasbourg. According to Google Maps the difference is only 30 minutes on the 800 kilometer drive from Paris to München.


Yes, but at some point he texted me desperate, saying that his GPS went awry and he found himself in Luxembourg...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Serves him right. I mean, you want to avoid tolls via a fairly straight on and simple route like N4, and you end up in Luxembourg, then you're definitely not paying attention. I can't really feel bad for people who follow their GPS's in the wrong direction, not just a few kilometers, but 50 km or 100 km or even more.


----------



## Road_UK

If he filled up his car and bought a lot of cigarettes in Luxembourg, he may have saved himself a lot of money. From Metz to Luxembourg is really not that far...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

N4 > Luxembourg is over 100 kilometers at the shortest.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Serves him right. I mean, you want to avoid tolls via a fairly straight on and simple route like N4, and you end up in Luxembourg, then you're definitely not paying attention. I can't really feel bad for people who follow their GPS's in the wrong direction, not just a few kilometers, but 50 km or 100 km or even more.


I just limited myself and said to him: "You're mingy".



Road_UK said:


> If he filled up his car and bought a lot of cigarettes in Luxembourg, he may have saved himself a lot of money. From Metz to Luxembourg is really not that far...


He doesn't smoke...


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> N4 > Luxembourg is over 100 kilometers at the shortest.


N4 Nancy to Thionville border 84 km AND no tolls on motorway. But the poor sod doesn't smoke...


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> N4 Nancy to Thionville border 84 km AND no tolls on motorway. But the poor sod doesn't smoke...


You don't know my friend, so don't you f*king dare calling him sod.


----------



## Road_UK

I was in Luxembourg on my way back from somewhere once, and I was in a tobacco warehouse to buy a load of cigarettes (as you do in Luxembourg) and I met to English guys who were flying back from Russia to the UK, and that had to change in Amsterdam, and they had so much spare time there, that they decided to hire a car and drive down to Luxembourg and back to buy cigarettes, before continuing their journey at Amsterdam.


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> You don't know my friend, so don't you f*king dare calling him sod.


Poor sod is nothing insulting in UK slang...


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Poor sod is nothing insulting in UK slang...





Wikipedia said:


> Sod in British English is a somewhat offensive, pejorative term for a person, derived from ********[1] but rarely nowadays used with this meaning. As an insult, it is generally teamed with 'off', i.e., 'sod off' meaning to get lost/go away/stop bothering me/**** off. It can generally be applied to refer to a person in a most basic sense and frequently preceded by a modifying adjective (“That crazy sod almost ran me over!”). It can be used as many different parts of speech – e.g. in the imperative mood, “Sod off, you slag!”; or in adjective form, “sodding bastard”. Such uses as “Sod it!” and “Sod this” are often exclamations of frustration.


I am sorry if that isn't right, but I always thought it was an insult, too.


----------



## Road_UK

Nope. Wiki answered it for you, and in this case it means as much as poor guy.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Then I apologize. Lost in translation...


----------



## Road_UK

Don't worry about it


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Aw, isn't that nice!

:cheers:


----------



## ptscout

@g.spionza
He had to follow Strasbourg at Nancy Ouest.

I think i was always a bit faster with the N4 and a speed of 140kmh at the 2x2-sections.
Paris has the best non-péage connection to southern Germany, Bordeaux with N10 is also pleasent like Perpignan via A75.

In general, i think that these toll roads are economical bullshit. Roads in good conditions are not used and a few constructors make a great deal.


----------



## verreme

I once drove from Nice to the Spanish border without paying a single cent of tolls, except for Prado-Carénage tunnel in Marseille. Wouldn't recommend it though. Took me 8 hours, and because the driver drove like in a Hollywood car chase. I was lucky to survive, although if it wasn't for him I'd still be driving down some road in Provence.

French motorways are usually very good, so paying a toll is totally worth it.


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## mcarling

In my opinion, upgrading the N88 to 2x2 is important. There is currently no reasonable route between Lyon and Toulouse. The N88 is too slow while the A9 to the south or the A89 to the north require about 100 km of extra driving.


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## verreme

Are there currently any motorways or dual-carriageway roads being built in France?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, but not a lot. The most important project is the construction of the A89 Balbigny - Lyon. A section of A304 between Charleville-Mézières and the Belgian border is also under construction, as is the urban A507 in Marseille.

The new western bypass of Strasbourg was recently axed by the new socialist government. (A355).


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## Penn's Woods

^^A304? Is that the connector to the (future) Belgian E420 toward Charleroi?

For that matter, what's the state of the E420?


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes, but not a lot. The most important project is the construction of the A89 Balbigny - Lyon. A section of A304 between Charleville-Mézières and the Belgian border is also under construction, as is the urban A507 in Marseille.
> 
> The new western bypass of Strasbourg was recently axed by the new socialist government. (A355).


Thanks. I see that the French consider their motorway network almost complete.


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## Road_UK

verreme said:


> Thanks. I see that the French consider their motorway network almost complete.


I do as well, I was just thinking that when you asked that question. Lots of new routes avoiding Paris, and new East-West motorways around Tours and Orleans, makes France a pretty good and reliable country for fast transportation.


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## Penn's Woods

Just in the few years I've been paying attention - since 2005ish - lots of new roads and segments (A65, A88, part of the A19, parts of the A28 and A29... that's just off the top of my head) have appeared. What's still in the works, I don't know.

I recently came across some road maps from my first trip to France in 1985 and was surprised to see how sparse the network was then. In the U.S., by contrast, the Interstate system in 1985 was much closer to completion, if by "completion" we mean its current state. (Not that there haven't been improvements like widenings, but there aren't many completely new routes.)


----------



## eomer

Fane40 said:


> Even if there are too many tunnels due to the mountains.


And too many toll gates...everybody should get a Liber-T.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> I recently came across some road maps from my first trip to France in 1985 and was surprised to see how sparse the network was then. In the U.S., by contrast, the Interstate system in 1985 was much closer to completion, if by "completion" we mean its current state. (Not that there haven't been improvements like widenings, but there aren't many completely new routes.)


Yes, the French network was developed later than most surrounding countries like Germany, Italy or the United Kingdom. Back in the 1970's there were only a few long-distance routes. 

I made this network length graph a while ago. As you can see there has been substantial developments in recent years. The Autoroute network expanded by more than 50% since 1990.


----------



## mcarling

verreme said:


> Are there currently any motorways or dual-carriageway roads being built in France?


Others that I know of are:
the N79, which being widened from 1x2 and 2+1 to 2x2, and
extension of the A77 to Moulins, along the route of the N7.


----------



## RV

Which was then the first motorway in France, as I see it dates to the 1940's?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A13 Vaucresson - Orgeval: 17 kilometers, 04-10-1941.


----------



## mcarling

Other than the ongoing gradual extension of the A77 southward, what could reasonably be done to alleviate the summer holiday congestion?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There were some ideas to construct a new motorway from Lyon to Montpellier (west of A7/A9) but it didn't gain traction apparently. 

A7 could be widened to 2x5 lanes. It's the most frequently congested and busiest long-distance motorway in France. The most problematic sections to widen is around Vienne and in Valence.

France could also do with better open-road tolling, preferably license plate toll for incidental users.


----------



## Road_UK

I don't think they can. The Spanish Costas is now better reachable since they have opened the Millau Bridge and they have now completed the missing link at Montellier. Widenings have now completed between Troyes and Lyon, but if the French decide to get into their cars all at once, then even God can't help them.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> A7 could be widened to 2x5 lanes. It's the most frequently congested and busiest long-distance motorway in France. The most problematic sections to widen is around Vienne and in Valence.


Further upgrading of the N88 to 2x2 should incrementally take some of the Lyon-Toulouse traffic off the A7. The N88 is about 60 kilometers shorter but currently takes about an hour longer due to a mixture of 1x2, 2+1, and 2x2 sections, as well as a mountainous route. When the N88 is 2x2 all the way between Lyon and Toulouse, I expect it will take virtually all the Lyon-Toulouse traffic off the A7/A9/A61.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think the bulk of the holiday peak traffic on A7 does not go towards Toulouse. While it would make sense to construct a Toulouse - Lyon motorway, I doubt whether it will significantly relieve A7.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think the bulk of the holiday peak traffic on A7 does not go towards Toulouse.


I'm sure that's correct.



ChrisZwolle said:


> While it would make sense to construct a Toulouse - Lyon motorway, I doubt whether it will significantly relieve A7.


It's my sense that most of the Toulouse - Lyon traffic uses the A7/A9/A61. I don't have a good sense of the AADT for Toulouse - Lyon traffic, but I imagine that it's significant.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> I don't think they can. The Spanish Costas is now better reachable since they have opened the Millau Bridge and they have now completed the missing link at Montellier. Widenings have now completed between Troyes and Lyon, but if the French decide to get into their cars all at once, then even God can't help them.


That's my impression....


----------



## geogregor

Road_UK said:


> I do as well, I was just thinking that when you asked that question. Lots of new routes avoiding Paris, and new East-West motorways around Tours and Orleans, makes France a pretty good and reliable country for fast transportation.


I never understood why so many people go on holiday all in the same time. Everything must be mighty busy, prices are high etc. For me it would be hell not a holiday. 
Why not spread holidays over longer season? It's not like summer in the Mediterranean last only few weeks :lol:


----------



## zsmg

Interesting that you went via the A22 Chris considering the signage in Belgium for Paris tends to force most travellers to bypass Lille via de Belgian A17 and French A27.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A29 Saint-Quentin - Amiens - Le Havre - Beuzeville*

The A29 is a 264-kilometer long motorway in northwestern France, mostly running in an east-west direction. I photographed the entire route in 202 photos, but posting them all at once is a bit much, so I'll spread it out. The more you guys comment, the less photos there are per page. Too bad this forum doesn't have a good "spoiler" option.

map:









There are 202 photos. Here are 1 - 40:

1.

A29-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2.

A29-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.

A29-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

A29-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.

A29-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

A29-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

A29-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

A29-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

A29-9 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

A29-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

A29-11 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

A29-12 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

A29-13 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

A29-14 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

A29-15 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.

A29-16 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.

A29-17 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.

A29-18 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.

A29-19 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.

A29-20 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21. 

A29-21 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22.

A29-22 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

23.

A29-23 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

24.

A29-24 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

25.

A29-25 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

26.

A29-26 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

27.

A29-27 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

28.

A29-28 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

29.

A29-29 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

30.

A29-30 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

31.

A29-31 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

32.

A29-32 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

33.

A29-33 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

34.

A29-34 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

35.

A29-35 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

36.

A29-36 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

37.

A29-37 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

38.

A29-38 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

39.

A29-39 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

40.

A29-40 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

By the way the speed limit on the shoulderless section between A26 and A1 is 130 km/h. In the Netherlands they're discussing whether a raise from 120 to 130 is safe if there are no shoulders at offramps :nuts:


----------



## sotonsi

zsmg said:


> Interesting that you went via the A22 Chris considering the signage in Belgium for Paris tends to force most travellers to bypass Lille via de Belgian A17 and French A27.


Surely it is, to some extent, a clinching trip - you wouldn't take that A1-A26-A29 route to Normandy unless you wanted to do the A26-A29 triangle, rather than the A1 you've done before.


----------



## ptscout

ChrisZwolle said:


> A video of the Pont de Normandie (Normandy Bridge) near Le Havre. It maybe even is the most impressive bridge I've ever driven, and I've driven many, but this one stands out due to its steepness, giant main spain and extremely tall pylons (stats in the video). If you drive it, the entire horizon disappears and you can only see the sky, it's that steep.


Leider ist dieses Video, das Musik von SME beinhaltet, in Deutschland nicht verfügbar, da ...


----------



## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> A22 in Lille. Much to my surprise, it's actually composed of two separate sections, the well-known northern section, which is the longest, but also a short, 2 kilometer southern section between A1 and A23/A27. The N227 expressway links both sections.


Your clinched highways suggest you've done it before, though.

The A1 to A23/A27 section is very odd, given that A27 exit numbering continues the A22 sequence (starts at 2) and takes the mainline route through the junction - by logic it should be A27. Also odd is that the A23 has a junction 1, given the traditional French system of branching exit numbers (especially given that it was C27).

The A22 was planned to loop off the A1, following that logic, and that most of the northern section was A1


----------



## PascalPascal2010

ptscout said:


> Leider ist dieses Video, das Musik von SME beinhaltet, in Deutschland nicht verfügbar, da ...


Proxtube hilft :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

sotonsi said:


> Your clinched highways suggest you've done it before, though.


I did, although it was about 7 years ago when I drove there the last time.



> The A1 to A23/A27 section is very odd, given that A27 exit numbering continues the A22 sequence (starts at 2) and takes the mainline route through the junction - by logic it should be A27.


I always thought it was A27, but A22 is signed in both directions there. I think the main reason why A27 is missing in Villeneuve-d'Ascq is the 50 km/h curve at the A22-N227 change (the northern one). 

By the way it's not uncommon in France to have exit numbers being based on an adjoining motorway. Sometimes exit numbering doesn't make sense at all, for example on A29 around Amiens (more photos later).


----------



## brisavoine

The new road signs have been installed ahead of the Franco-Brazilian border.


----------



## ptscout

PascalPascal2010 said:


> Proxtube hilft :lol:


hno: Ein Fehler ist aufgetreten.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Another 20 photos of A29:

41.

A29-41 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

42.

A29-42 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

43.

A29-43 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

44.

A29-44 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

45.

A29-45 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

46.

A29-46 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

47.

A29-47 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

48.

A29-48 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

49.

A29-49 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

50.

A29-50 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

51.

A29-51 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

52.

A29-52 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

53.

A29-53 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

54.

A29-54 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

55.

A29-55 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

56.

A29-56 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

57.

A29-57 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

58.

A29-58 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

59.

A29-59 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

60.

A29-60 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## Penn's Woods

Some of the white signs (starting at photo 49) have blue borders, or blue boxes around the destinations. Is that significant, in the French color-coding system?

By the way, the color-coding for different types of roads - by which I mean variation in the color of the signs themselves ("Amiens" on a green background means something different than "Amiens" on a blue background) - is completely foreign to Americans, and probably for a lot of non-Europeans.


----------



## brisavoine

Basically, a city's name on a blue background means :happy: (modern world here I am).

A city's name on a green background means :| (20 cars stuck behind a stupid slow driver).

At least that's how I always feel when I see the signs.


----------



## Suburbanist

Penn's Woods said:


> Some of the white signs (starting at photo 49) have blue borders, or blue boxes around the destinations. Is that significant, in the French color-coding system?.


I think that indicates whether the signed places are accessible straight from the highway or whether they involve some non-highway road to be reached.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I can't remember having seen that anywhere else than Amiens. I've no idea what it means...


----------



## Road_UK

Amiens is the only place that has them, and they are there to indicate that it is part of the ringroad.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It makes me wonder why the A29 part of the Amiens périphérique is toll free, while the A16 part is not. The exits along A29 are configured to leave space for an off-ramp toll plaza.

The next 20 photos show the Amiens bypass.

61.

A29-61 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

62.

A29-62 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

63.

A29-63 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

64.

A29-64 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

65.

A29-65 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

66.

A29-66 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

67.

A29-67 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

68.

A29-68 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

69.

A29-69 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

70.

A29-70 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

71.

A29-71 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

72.

A29-72 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

73.

A29-73 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

74.

A29-74 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

75.

A29-75 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

76.

A29-76 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

77.

A29-77 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

78.

A29-78 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

79.

A29-79 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

80.

A29-80 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

As you can see the Dury toll plaza has only 2 lanes for tickets, which surprised me, even at low traffic there was a waiting line. A significant delay was reported last weekend there. 

I drove behind that cactus van for many kilometers by the way.


----------



## Road_UK

A16 has very low volumes of traffic all the way from Boulogne to Paris, including the Amiens part. The A29 part of Amiens has lots of commuter traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I haven't spotted any breathalyzers in France by the way. Not a single gas station had them from what I've seen. I've driven 3500 km in 5 days so I've been to a lot of gas stations


----------



## CNGL

sotonsi said:


> ...why does the A71-A75 have two numbers?


In fact that motorway has only one number: E11 . Except the Orleans-Vierzon part which is E09.

Time for the last photos of E44 Chris, we are on a new page, the 100th!


----------



## Bothar.G

I remember travelling the A29 when I got the ferry from Rosslare. But from Ireland, it's more practical and cheaper to board the plane and rent a car due to the long journey time. Thanks for uploading those pics.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A29 Saint-Quentin - Amiens - Le Havre - Beuzeville*

Last leg:

161.

A29-161 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

162.

A29-162 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

163.

A29-163 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

164.

A29-164 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

165.

A29-165 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

166.

A29-166 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

167.

A29-167 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

168.

A29-168 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

169.

A29-169 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

170.

A29-170 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

171.

A29-171 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

172.

A29-172 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

173.

A29-173 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

174.

A29-174 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

175.

A29-175 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

176.

A29-176 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

177.

A29-177 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

178.

A29-178 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

179.

A29-179 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

180.

A29-180 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

181.

A29-181 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

182.

A29-182 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

183.

A29-183 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

184.

A29-184 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

185.

A29-185 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

186.

A29-186 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

187.

A29-187 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

188.

A29-188 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

189.

A29-189 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

190.

A29-190 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

191.

A29-191 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

192.

A29-192 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

193.

A29-193 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

194.

A29-194 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

195.

A29-195 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

196.

A29-196 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

197.

A29-197 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

198.

A29-198 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

199.

A29-199 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

200.

A29-200 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

201.

A29-201 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

202.

A29-202 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## Road_UK

Do you just click away on your camera when you're driving? Or have you got a dash-cam?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

point-and-shoot


----------



## Substructure

686km of traffic jam today at 11:30.

In French: http://www.letelegramme.com/ig/gene...nee-dont-228-a-l-ouest-04-08-2012-1794685.php

Interesting fact: 55km of traffic jam on the relatively calm A75. Also, Lyon is fully stuck, with 16km of jam at its southern exits.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I noticed there is frequent weekend congestion on southbound A71 between Orléans and Vierzon, the delays can be significant here. I think it has to do with the small toll plaza when leaving A71 for A20 towards Toulouse. The waiting line causes A71 traffic to slow down as well.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

:cheers:


----------



## Wapper

Waiting for péage in these conditions must be hell. One week ago, I was in a medium-sized traffic jam at a péage near Cambrai, although the motorway itself was not extremely busy actually. Some people were already being quite agressive.

^^ The motorway just before (chalk cliffs), on and right beyond the pont de Normandie is one of the nicest roads in France. The bridge is spectacular and the views over the Seine bay, Le Havre and its port and Honfleur are amazing.


----------



## Substructure

Just reached 750km of traffic jam...

http://www.franceinfo.fr/societe/jo...de-bouchons-a-la-mi-journee-697093-2012-08-04


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Now imagine we've had more than that in our tiny country of the Pays-Bas


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A13 Beuzeville - Caen*

A few photos of the Autoroute A13 in Normandie, from Beuzeville (A29) to the périphérique of Caen. This is a toll road with an open system, there's only a toll booth at the Beuzeville interchange and further west near Caen. Total tolls were about € 4,50.

1. 

A13-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2.

A13-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.

A13-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

A13-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.

A13-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

A13-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

A13-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

A13-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

A13-9 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

A13-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

A13-11 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

A13-12 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

A13-13 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

A13-14 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

A13-15 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.

A13-16 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.

A13-17 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.

A13-18 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.

A13-19 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.

A13-20 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21.

A13-21 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22.

A13-22 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

23.

A13-23 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

24.

A13-24 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

25.

A13-25 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

26.

A13-26 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

27.

A13-27 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

28.

A13-28 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

29.

A13-29 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

30.

A13-30 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

31.

A13-31 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

32.

A13-32 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

33.

A13-33 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

34.

A13-34 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

35.

A13-35 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

36.

A13-36 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

37.

A13-37 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Bon !

I spent a summer studying in Caen. Nice city, nice countryside, a lot of those place names are familiar.

I'm surprised to see Nantes as a control city up there - why not Rennes? (I assume they want people to use the A84 and then the N-I-forget/E3)

The A813 is new to me.

EDIT: The A813 is new, period, I see. 2011 Michelin road atlas shows something autoroute-like under construction at the right place (no route number), 2011 IGN atlas has nothing. Is it supposed to extend farther than the ex-N13?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> I'm surprised to see Nantes as a control city up there - why not Rennes? (I assume they want people to use the A84 and then the N-I-forget/E3)


Yeah that's a bit of a discrepancy. From Caen you will only see Rennes on A84. Nantes doesn't reappear until you hit the Rennes beltway.


----------



## CNGL

Penn's Woods said:


> I'm surprised to see Nantes as a control city up there - why not Rennes? (I assume they want people to use the A84 and then the N-I-forget/E3)


N137. But for me it is E03 as you said.


----------



## Klov

An example of highway conversion:
Angers, a town in western France where several highways meet, including the A11 (Paris-Nantes), is literally split into two by a highway crossing its centre, right on the Maine river banks. The ''voies sur berges'', as they are called, were built during the 70's-80's, occasioning many old building destruction, and still cause a lot of noise and pollution. After the construction of two bypasses (one is already finished), the ''voies sur berges'' will become less useful and the municipality is thinking about their transformation. 

The quay at the beginning of the 20th century:









Actual situation:









In 2012, the final project (three were retained) was announced, it schedules a total destruction of the actual roads and a new layout, with levels of grass and trees connecting the city centre with the river. However, the amount of work to achieve is huge, and the project won't be completed before 2030.

You can see the winning project and pictures of the actual situation here: http://www.phytolab.fr/?p=2412


----------



## moon993

I wonder was there any revolt against this highway since it require destruction of existing buildings and causes pollution and if there were any protests how big was it?


----------



## -Pino-

CNGL said:


> N137. But for me it is E03 as you said.


Is that the common way to refer to this route in the region? If so, it must be one of the few routes in France known by its E-number.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think anybody cares about E-numbers in France. Just like in Germany, the Netherlands, United Kingdom, Ireland, etc.


----------



## Klov

moon993 said:


> I wonder was there any revolt against this highway since it require destruction of existing buildings and causes pollution and if there were any protests how big was it?


As long as I know, some protests occurred, but there was no choice: the highway had to be build, and bypasses were really hard to construct at that time, because of several large rivers and swamps spreading around the town. When the first bypass was built in 2007-2008, it required the construction of a long tunnel and many bridges.

Also, at that time, considerations about pollution were not that high, especially about car traffic, increasing each year and congesting the existing old boulevards. And to finish, the old buildings on the quays were not really old, because the quays were not built before 1850. Every city in France had at least an old street or square destroyed by the 60's or 70's, if not a whole quarter.


----------



## Road_UK

Perhaps, but at the same time they wouldn't design such a scheme, if its likely to cause a high scale gridlock. That would be rather stupid, and will have the entire local population complaining to the local authorities.


----------



## hofburg

it's not like everybody supports this. city opposition is against: http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/2010/06/23/01002-20100623ARTFIG00760--paris-les-quais-en-debat.php

there are examples when a minor change of circulation caused huge traffic jams:
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fr...u-plan-de-circulation-deroute-les-usagers.php

I can't imagine what a closing one of very important axis will cause.

And not, Parisiens doesn't care about entire city, its infrastructure, ..., what they care is their peaceful quartier 300m around their tinny appartement.


----------



## Road_UK

Well, there you go. So they either get progress, or they will mess it up real good.


----------



## mcarling

Road_UK said:


> at the same time they wouldn't design such a scheme, if its likely to cause a high scale gridlock. That would be rather stupid....


I hope that's sarcasm. This is a government we're talking about. Stupid is about the best that governments ever do.


----------



## [email protected]

hofburg said:


> And not, Parisiens doesn't care about entire city, its infrastructure, ..., what they care is their peaceful quartier 300m around their tinny appartement.


Couldn't agree more. 


Another dumb road reshaping:
http://www.espaceprojets-villejuif.fr/pdf/nationale7.pdf



requalification N7 said:


> The reshaping will diminish traffic on the RN7. It will basically become a local road blah blah


Sounds great. Where will the traffic go? God knows. 




> The works will be organized in order to limit inconvenience.


The place has temporarily become a total dump. It's a maybe one of the closest experiences in Europe to driving in Dhaka. 

There were several tunnels where the N7 crossed important roads. They all have been banked up so now traffic goes through busy intersections, causing traffic jams. What's there to replace them? Two lanes worth of pebble and a couple stunted plants. I could consider myself as one of the "riverains", and I can't possibly see how it has impacted my life, apart from rising local taxes, increasing my fuel and time consumption whenever I use this road and worsening the air quality in the neighborhood. Funnily enough they forgot to mention these things in the "project's impacts" paragraph.
They were complaining that tunnels favorised speeding. I guess they don't know what a speed camera is. Anyway I still see some Fangios speeding over 80 km/h almost every time I pass there. Maybe they should try harder at make it a single road with passing places? :dunno:


----------



## verreme

hofburg said:


> And not, Parisiens doesn't care about entire city, its infrastructure, ..., what they care is their peaceful quartier 300m around their tinny appartement.


Same as in every city in the world.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's why you need people who see the bigger picture.


----------



## Road_UK

Which is only possible by people who know the area through physical knowledge, not through numbers, maps and photographs


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I respectfully disagree.


----------



## Road_UK

Fine job.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Traffic engineers make decisions based on comprehensive data, not incidental driveby guesstimates.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^That's true, so far as it goes. But the bigger picture goes beyond just traffic, I'd argue. And residents of an area, particularly in an urban area, should at the very least get a say. I found Nima-Farid's "canceled freeways...should be built" thread actually offensive. Don't sit 5,000 miles away from me digging up old maps and announce that part of my neighborhood "should be" paved over (and then deny, when pressed, that your fricking thread title represents your point of view).

Ahem. Sorry.


----------



## Road_UK

And a few posts ago everyone was complaining about a decision, I assume made by authorities after a study conducted by these engineers. Also, if someone is there on a daily basis, knowing the area through and through, and knows what goes by everyday, in a nutshell a local person, I'm sure this person can be better trusted than someone from far away, like you or me in this case. With your incidental driver remark, you more or less agreed with me anyway.

Edit: this post as a reply to Chris. Hey Michael, how you doin.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Brilliant! Ta.

You?


----------



## Road_UK

Pretty good my man...


----------



## hofburg

I think there are more political reasons (the greens, socialists...) than any ingeniring behind this particular case.



[email protected] said:


> Couldn't agree more.
> 
> 
> Another dumb road reshaping:
> http://www.espaceprojets-villejuif.fr/pdf/nationale7.pdf
> 
> 
> Sounds great. Where will the traffic go? God knows.
> 
> 
> 
> The place has temporarily become a total dump. It's a maybe one of the closest experiences in Europe to driving in Dhaka.
> 
> There were several tunnels where the N7 crossed important roads. They all have been banked up so now traffic goes through busy intersections, causing traffic jams. What's there to replace them? Two lanes worth of pebble and a couple stunted plants. I could consider myself as one of the "riverains", and I can't possibly see how it has impacted my life, apart from rising local taxes, increasing my fuel and time consumption whenever I use this road and worsening the air quality in the neighborhood. Funnily enough they forgot to mention these things in the "project's impacts" paragraph.
> They were complaining that tunnels favorised speeding. I guess they don't know what a speed camera is. Anyway I still see some Fangios speeding over 80 km/h almost every time I pass there. Maybe they should try harder at make it a single road with passing places? :dunno:


tunnels in Paris are a great idea. there are many of them on the inner peripherique and they facilitate transit very much. too bad they demolished them on N7.

well, N7 at least stays 2x2, + more parking possibilities, I don't think it's that bad.

one of major avenues from the north east of Paris, Jean Jaures, was reduced from 2x2 to 1x1 couple of years ago, based on local referendum.


----------



## mcarling

eomer said:


> Right but full congestion happens only a few days [per] year. Widening A7 motorway to 2x5 lanes, or 2 x (3+2) lanes, is a nonsense for so few time.





ChrisZwolle said:


> It's true that the average volumes do not warrant 2x5 lanes. However, if you're paying a premium, you should also expect a better service than 2 - 3 hours delay.


The long-term plan seems to be to extend the A77 south from Nevers and Moulins to Roanne, where it will meet the northern extension of the A72. The A72 is planned to be extended south through Annonay to meet the A7 near Valence.

When completed, that should substantially relieve the A7 north of Valence.


----------



## brisavoine

Some news about the bridge on the Oyapock River between France and Brazil heard tonight on France24. The Brazilians have FINALLY started work on the access road to the bridge on their side of the border in the beginning of August. The construction of the access road and the Brazilian border station is scheduled to take 3 months. So the bridge should be inaugurated soon now. :banana:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is Col du Jandri above Les Deux Alps accessible by regular cars? It's at 3150 meters altitude.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I think it is, but only to 4x4 vehicles.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is Col du Jandri above Les Deux Alps accessible by regular cars? It's at 3150 meters altitude.


Not that bad. But we beat it with a road that peaks at 3400 meters .


----------



## Lankosher

My trip across viaduct Millau - 15 Sept 2012






+ some of my photos


----------



## Daviedoff

^^ I was there also a week ago, very nice!

A75 from Millau to A75-A750 interchange, with Millau viaduc in the beginning and the spectacular part nearby Lodève (start at 7:40).


----------



## Daviedoff

BP Paris:


----------



## Lankosher

Leaving France, entering Germany...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N12 Morlaix - Brest*

Following the westernmost part of the N12 expressway in Bretagne, from Morlaix to Brest.

182.

N12-182 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

183.

N12-183 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

184.

N12-184 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

185.

N12-185 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

186.

N12-186 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

187.

N12-187 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

188.

N12-188 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

189.

N12-189 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

190.

N12-190 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

191.

N12-191 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

192.

N12-192 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

193.

N12-193 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

194.

N12-194 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

195.

N12-195 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

196.

N12-196 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

197.

N12-197 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

198.

N12-198 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

199.

N12-199 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

200.

N12-200 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

201.

N12-201 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

202.

N12-202 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

203.

N12-203 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

204.

N12-204 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

205.

N12-205 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

206.

N12-206 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

207.

N12-207 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

208.

N12-208 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

209.

N12-209 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

210.

N12-210 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

211.

N12-211 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

212.

N12-212 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

213.

N12-213 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

214.

N12-214 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

215.

N12-215 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

216.

N12-216 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

217.

N12-217 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

218.

N12-218 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

219.

N12-219 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

220.

N12-220 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

221.

N12-221 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

222.

N12-222 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

223.

N12-223 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ptscout

Autour Nice


----------



## ptscout

N7 from Nice to Monaco, last D6007 and now M6007(?) with blue sign


----------



## Penn's Woods

M6007? In Monaco?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Those are new "Routes Métropolitaines", introduced in March 2012. Their prefix is "M".


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Those are new "Routes Métropolitaines", introduced in March 2012. Their prefix is "M".


Ah.


----------



## ptscout

My first thought was also that Monaco is maintaining that road now. 

A new Direction des Routes Metropolitaines is founded: http://video.nice.fr/details_video_embed.php?slug=signaletique-de-la-metropole-nice-cote-d-azur


----------



## Isek

The percentage of French cars in France is still remarkable. Has this really to do with the great French national pride?


----------



## Road_UK

No. A lot of German cars in Germany, a lot of USA cars in the USA etc etc. I think it's quite normal.


----------



## verreme

France is one of Europe's largest carmakers, so I guess it's normal. You'll also see a lot of locally built cars in Spain, Italy, Germany or the UK.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Those are new "Routes Métropolitaines", introduced in March 2012. Their prefix is "M".





ptscout said:


> My first thought was also that Monaco is maintaining that road now.
> 
> A new Direction des Routes Metropolitaines is founded: http://video.nice.fr/details_video_embed.php?slug=signaletique-de-la-metropole-nice-cote-d-azur


I did a little digging on French Wikipedia, routes.wikia.com and the French roads forum. This appears to be limited to the Nice area for now, and some people on the forum aren't sure the new M designation and blue markers are really legal.

Just f.y.i....


----------



## hofburg

Isek said:


> The percentage of French cars in France is still remarkable. Has this really to do with the great French national pride?


Yes. And helping domestic economy - protectionism. The same goes for Germany, Italy, Austria, Spain,...


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Austrian cars??

[subject change]----------

Talking of obscure route-number classes, I noticed quite a few C roads on exit signs on one of Chris's recent photo sets. I don't think I've ever seen them before. (But on the other hand, a lot of exit signs don't have route numbers at all, just destinations.) If you get off the autoroutes/voies express in other parts of the country, do you see them marked, or is that an oddity of Brittany?

And I would think any public road (village streets, for example) that's not part of a "higher" class of road like national or departmental would be a municipal road, so in municipalities where C roads are marked as such, are they just a subset of the municipal road network - main roads leading to other villages get numbers but the side streets don't - or am I missing something?


----------



## hofburg

yes - for Austria, only national pride, no helping domestic economy  which proves my first point, that people don't buy domestic cars just because they are local, but mainly for patriotic reasons.


----------



## Penn's Woods

You've lost me.

I was wondering what brand of cars is Austrian. And how does buying Austrian-made cars not help the Austrian economy? And what's the difference between buying domestic cars "because they're local" and buying "for patriotic reasons"?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N165 Brest - Nantes*

Part 3.1: Quimper - Lorient.

46. 

N165-46 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

47.

N165-47 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

48.

N165-48 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

49.

N165-49 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

50.

N165-50 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

51.

N165-51 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

52.

N165-52 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

53.

N165-53 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

54.

N165-54 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

55.

N165-55 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

56.

N165-56 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

57.

N165-57 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

58.

N165-58 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

59.

N165-59 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

60.

N165-60 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

61.

N165-61 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

62.

N165-62 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

63.

N165-63 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

64.

N165-64 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

65.

N165-65 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

66.

N165-66 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## xrtn2

^^

Is this a tolled road?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No. There are no toll roads in all of Bretagne (Brittany). They were exempted from toll roads in the 1970s with the so-called "Plan routier Breton".


----------



## xrtn2

^^

kay:

It's seems no tolled road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

These are the toll-free expressways of Bretagne.


----------



## hofburg

ChrisZwolle said:


> No. There are no toll roads in all of Bretagne (Brittany). They were exempted from toll roads in the 1970s with the so-called "Plan routier Breton".


why?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Bretagne was historically isolated. Charles de Gaulle laid out this Plan routier Breton in 1969, with three east-west axis, the center one being a 3-lane road. They planned a network of 1.000 kilometers of high-standard routes to be constructed between 1970 and 1995.

Unfortunately very little is known about the opening dates of the expressways in Bretagne.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

67.

N165-67 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

68.

N165-68 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

69.

N165-69 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

70.

N165-70 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

71.

N165-71 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

72.

N165-72 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

73.

N165-73 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

74.

N165-74 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

75.

N165-75 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

76.

N165-76 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

77.

N165-77 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

78.

N165-78 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

79.

N165-79 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

80.

N165-80 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## KRX_69

I like the french signalization :yes:


----------



## sebi23ro

that sounds to me like a cheap excuse. how come they are the only ones using this kind of signalisation?


----------



## Road_UK

sebi23ro said:


> that sounds to me like a cheap excuse. how come they are the only ones using this kind of signalisation?


They're not.


----------



## ThomasBZH

piotr71 said:


> Looks like this road was originally built with concrete tiles and then covered with tarmac (pic. 41).


Its was, indeed. Though I don't remember of the exact extend of the concrete surface, it was at least the stretch covered by post #2177. It was resurfaced around 10 to 15 years ago, IIRC, and was a nice treat for the ears. 

The quality of the expressways in Brittany varies at lot from place to place. In some places little more than a new carriageway was build next to the existing road, keeping at-grade junctions and winding ROW. In other places whole new stretches of dual carriageway roads with grade-seperated junctions were built. Everything has been constantly enhanced bit by bit so now there are some motorway-like stretches, with hard shoulder, at-grade junctions are mostly a thing from the past and the network is nearing completion. It really takes a lot of time, but that's a side effect of not having tolled roads. (Which I'm not complaining about.)



ChrisZwolle said:


> Unfortunately very little is known about the opening dates of the expressways in Bretagne.


If you don't mind some French, lots of data can be found in this book: Le plan routier breton. (Though it's more than 10 years old now, so it's a bit outdated.)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N165 Brest - Nantes*

Driving eastbound from Lorient towards Vannes...

81. 

N165-81 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

82.

N165-82 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

83.

N165-83 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

84.

N165-84 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

85.

N165-85 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

86.

N165-86 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

87.

N165-87 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

88.

N165-88 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

89.

N165-89 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

90.

N165-90 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

91.

N165-91 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

92.

N165-92 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

93.

N165-93 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

94.

N165-94 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

95.

N165-95 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

96.

N165-96 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

97.

N165-97 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

98.

N165-98 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

99.

N165-99 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

100.

N165-100 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

you covered almost entire Bretagne! Nice pics, although driving there must be pretty boring I guess.


----------



## panda80

Seems to me it's not the most boring in France. You got some hilly area, lot of green around and the traffic is enough to keep you concentrated.


----------



## verreme

Boring? Landes de Gascogne are boring. This is as fun as it gets :lol:


----------



## hofburg

IDK, I see same exact trees on each photo


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The coast of Bretagne is very scenic, with high rock cliffs or lagoons. Some areas have palm trees, I've seen this along the north coast (I didn't expect that there). The expressways run somewhat inland though, and are hilly. They're not terribly boring, but also not exciting, it's not the Alps or Massif Central.


----------



## Smelser

ChrisZwolle said:


> These are the toll-free expressways of Bretagne.


So, do I understand correctly that all the intercity routes in blue are tolled?


What is the toll rate per km and how are the tolls collected, automatically or manually? I assume the national Govt collects the money, but is it distributed to local governments or spent by the national Govt?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The blue routes are Autoroutes (prefix A). They are usually tolled, but some aren't. 

The tolls vary by route and toll operator. Generally older toll roads are cheaper than newer ones and Alpine toll routes. Toll rates generally vary from € 0.07 to € 0.15 per kilometer. Driving north to south through France can easily cost you € 60 - 70 by car.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

The Spanish service areas can be pretty bad


----------



## Fane40

sotonsi said:


> The problem with French rest areas is that they mostly smell very strongly of silage (or maybe it was just two or three that scarred me forever?). Lunch was the part of my trips through France that I looked forward too the least - struggling to eat a picnic due to the smell. The facilities were good, and the smaller rest areas are something that I (as a Brit) think should be encouraged here, but the smell!


??
Where are you from ?


----------



## Fane40

DanielFigFoz said:


> The Spanish service areas can be pretty bad


I was never disppointed by spanish service areas.
except sometimes by the reception, very cold without any politeness.
But we can meet this kind of reception everywhere.
The problem there, comes from the traffic sign about service areas, they are very bad indicated.Particularly on A 66 (Benavente- Vigo).
I try to stop in Cepsa (Total) service areas because I have a diesel card, but nothing is indicated before on the road.
And most of the service areas are outside "autovias", along the old national road.
The best is you can eat everywhere 24 h a day.
I like the road between Irun and Valencia (N 121, N 232, A 23), towards Madrid ( A1) or Sevilla (A66).
Several areas are open every time.


----------



## panda80

Some photos from the following route. It's not the conventional route from Luxembourg to Paris but it avoids a part of the tolls and is 10km shorter. Also I think it is more spectacular. Pics are from Easter 2012 holliday.

1. We just entered France, on N52:










2. 2+2 turns in 1+1:










3. On E44, towards Sedan:










4. Montmedy:










5. 2+2 again as we are near Sedan:










6. A34, between Charleville-Mezieres and Reims:










7.









8.









9.


----------



## hofburg

could it _be_ more french than that? :cheers:



> http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums...nta Paste 2012 FR DE LUX/drumuri/IMG_3734.jpg


----------



## panda80

hofburg said:


> could it _be_ more french than that? :cheers:


I also liked that pic, even without the signs many people here would have guessed the photo was shot in France


----------



## panda80

10. Rethel bypass is just an expressway, not motorway:









11. 









12.









13. Near Reims:









14. Inside Reims, didn't used the bypass that leads directly to A4, we wanted to go through the town:










15. Now we are on A4, the former part of the motorway, which passes near the town center:










16. A4, from Reims to Paris:










17. Traffic on A4, near Paris (should have covered the signs and post the pics in guess the highway thread, seem nice for that thread, not so easy to tell the exact location):










18.


----------



## hofburg

panda80 said:


> Now we are on A4, the former part of the motorway, which passes near the town center:


A4 through Reims, A6 through Lyon... I like the french spirit from 60s-70s  



panda80 said:


> 17. Traffic on A4, near Paris (should have covered the signs and post the pics in guess the highway thread, seem nice for that thread, not so easy to tell the exact location):
> 
> http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums...nta Paste 2012 FR DE LUX/drumuri/IMG_4400.jpg


It's weird how you have to use a national road to get to A86 from A4 westbound.


----------



## panda80

hofburg said:


> It's weird how you have to use a national road to get to A86 from A4 westbound.


No, you don't. A86 goes directly from A4 immediately after the place I took photo no 17. You can see how A86 goes directly from A4 through that tunnel.


----------



## hofburg

my mistake then. the map is confusing https://maps.google.si/?ll=48.833622,2.496557&spn=0.016187,0.042272&t=m&z=15


----------



## panda80

hofburg said:


> my mistake then. the map is confusing https://maps.google.si/?ll=48.833622,2.496557&spn=0.016187,0.042272&t=m&z=15


You can see on Gmaps that dotted line going from that interchange direction north, to the other part of the tunnel. Route.


----------



## hofburg

but I was thinking A4 *westbound* -> A86


----------



## panda80

hofburg said:


> but I was thinking A4 *westbound* -> A86


Oh, sorry, you are right then, but the non-motorway section seems to be very short, immediately after that bridge you enter a tunnel and merge with A86.


----------



## panda80

Now photos from Paris-Rouen. I used the non-toll alternative A15+D6014, instead of the tolled A13. The chosen route is 15 km shorter.

Route

1.A86, in Paris metropolitan area:










2.









3.









4.









5.









6.









7.









8.









9.


----------



## panda80

11. St. Denis Stadium (Stade de France):










12. Still A86:










13.









14. We enter A15:









15.









16.









17.









18.









19.


----------



## panda80

20.









21.









22.









23.









24. After Pontoise, A15 becomes a 2+2 expressway:










25.









26.









27.









28.









29. Rouen suburbs:










30.









31. Rouen, you can see the nice cathedral of the city:


----------



## hofburg

nice pics, you missed the Seine viaduct at Gennevilliers though


----------



## panda80

hofburg said:


> nice pics, you missed the Seine viaduct at Gennevilliers though


Thank you, unfortunately I missed it


----------



## juanico

panda80 said:


> Oh, sorry, you are right then, but the non-motorway section seems to be very short, immediately after that bridge you enter a tunnel and merge with A86.


Very short but quite an issue there! At the end of the exit ramp you have a traffic light it is not uncommon to wait 25 minutes to get through. Then the two northbound lanes on the bridge merge for the single lane access ramp to the tunnel.
It is really one of the most problematic point of Paris freeway system.


----------



## panda80

next page for more photos


----------



## Fane40

Yes, if you are unlucky, and sometimes I was !
When a person had no credit card, no money and his cheque-book in the trunk, I was just behind him ! (A10 toll north of Bordeaux maybe 10-12 years ago).
I hate him !
I don't count people who are looking for money in all their car, pay with a big bill and let fall coins under the car, cannot open the door, lead two meters, come out car to go to pick up the money,.....Particularly when people are going in holidays.
I always payed with credit card ,and for three years, with "télépéage" (electronic system). A very good satisfaction.
Once, in the southern France, a retired people chose to take one of the only two elctronic ways where you can pass at 30 km/h without to stop of course.
And what happened because I was just behind him ?
He didn't have the electronic system. All was blocked during 2 minutes.
With people behind me. I hope with all headlights he received with horns by everybody he never did the same thing again !


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I always pay by credit card along French toll roads. It's multiple times faster than the cash lanes. 

Europe should introduce tolling interoperability, meaning that you can use the same transponder at every toll road in Europe. Much of the holiday congestion in France is caused by toll booths. It would still be congested with open road tolling, but the delays would be far less.


----------



## Fane40

France have less and less cash lanes with a person who takes and gives back money.
It doesn't exist in my corner for two years when the three toll booths on the A63 (Biriatou at the border, Biarritz and Bénesse-Maremne) were rebuilt.
Before, congestion was very high ,with 3 to 10 km of congestion at the first toll gate from the north to the south when people went away on holidays.
Less jobs , too bad, but congestion has disappeared in big majority since these toll gates were rebuilt. There are twice more toll ways than before.


----------



## hofburg

^dans mon coin =/= in my corner :lol:


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> Europe should introduce tolling interoperability, meaning that you can use the same transponder at every toll road in Europe. Much of the holiday congestion in France is caused by toll booths. It would still be congested with open road tolling, but the delays would be far less.


What is needed, in my opinion, is the elimination of all toll booths. Tolling should be implemented, if at all, intelligently (for example, like in Hungary or Israel). Cameras record number plates at 100+ kmh and the registered owner is billed if not pre-paid. I cannot see any possible justification for toll booths in the 21st century.


----------



## Road_UK

mcarling said:


> What is needed, in my opinion, is the elimination of all toll booths. Tolling should be implemented, if at all, intelligently (for example, like in Hungary or Israel). Cameras record number plates at 100+ kmh and the registered owner is billed if not pre-paid. I cannot see any possible justification for toll booths in the 21st century.


Anything better than more camera's. And tracing 1000s of foreign plates is not exactly cost effective.


----------



## mcarling

Road_UK said:


> Anything better than more camera's.


You'd rather queue to pay a toll at a toll booth where your number plate will be photographed than drive past a camera at 100+ kph???



Road_UK said:


> And tracing 1000s of foreign plates is not exactly cost effective.


It doesn't seem to be a problem in Hungary. If a car with foreign plates doesn't have an electronic vignette (buy over the Internet or at any petrol station) then, I'm told, the police are automatically alerted and the car may be stopped.


----------



## Road_UK

mcarling said:


> You'd rather queue to pay a toll at a toll booth where your number plate will be photographed than drive past a camera at 100+ kph???
> 
> It doesn't seem to be a problem in Hungary. If a car with foreign plates doesn't have an electronic vignette (buy over the Internet or at any petrol station) then, I'm told, the police are automatically alerted and the car may be stopped.


I drive through Europe and all over France in a van for a living. I hardly ever have to queue at toll plazas. I get my ticket, I pay by card at the other end, and I get a better move on in France than anywhere else. And I think it's very easy for foreigners to dodge paying in Hungary. I don't even pay sometimes when I'm in and out at nightime doing a delivery in Komaron. When I do pay I often have to queue at the toll booths after the border. (or having to stop at the petrol station, using toll booth is optional)


----------



## ptscout

A card is always enough in France, but i use it more for other things than paying the underground for my car :cheers:


----------



## hofburg

nice video. bypassing Paris by A104? do you speak french? because the lyrics of the song on the radio you're listining to is really _n'importe quoi_


----------



## ptscout

Yes, its a bypass to the N3 (Meaux).
My french is good enough for the music radios there, i'm also listening them (and a few others) in Germany by mobile phone cause the "Hitradios" here are the biggest shit in the world.


----------



## Fane40

hofburg said:


> ^dans mon coin =/= in my corner :lol:


Yes, in my corner !!
I don't know if this phrase is good in english, but I translated it without to know if it was understandable.
In french, it means a place where the person lives around.
I don't use a translator to tell what I want. I only use my school memories and what I read in forums.
Capito ?


----------



## hofburg

it's understandable, but sounds funny


----------



## mcarling

The phrase "in my corner" has a different meaning in English, that comes from boxing. It means to be on one's side in any sort of dispute or conflict.


----------



## hofburg

^never heard. Both british and american?


----------



## Fane40

hofburg said:


> it's understandable, but sounds funny


Maybe, and maybe more for Parisians (people from Paris) and in the north, because they smile all the time when I speak to them with my accent from the south west !
A sort of singing accent.


----------



## Fane40

mcarling said:


> The phrase "in my corner" has a different meaning in English, that comes from boxing. It means to be on one's side in any sort of dispute or conflict.


Thanks for the info. i will be less stupid tonight.


----------



## mcarling

hofburg said:


> Both british and american?


Yes, but perhaps more widely used in the States.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I don't think that I've heard that before


----------



## alserrod

Ten years ago, January 17th, 2003, the Somport tunnel in the RN-124 (E-07) and 8,1 km long was opened


----------



## Fane40

verreme said:


> About time. It was a pain to drive 110 km/h through that endless land.



Maybe...
But you have no obligation to respect it.
200 km/h is more efficient to pass this no man's land.
I was regularly above the speed limit before today.
130 km/h is a good speed.


----------



## g.spinoza

Fane40 said:


> Maybe...
> But you have no obligation to respect it.


Yes, you have.


----------



## mcarling

Fane40 said:


> But you have no obligation to respect it.


True, there is no obligation for anyone to respect a speed limit (except 300,000 km per second) but non-obedience incurs a risk of punishment. With foreign number plates, the speed cameras are not terribly threatening.


----------



## Road_UK

No, but with manned speed checks you, as a foreigner are obliged to pay a on the spot fine, which can be very expensive.


----------



## hofburg

manned checks are usually warned before with lights flashing


----------



## Road_UK

No it's not. They hide behind the bushes with their radar guns, and screw you over a few 100 metres down the road with their motorbikes or at a barrière de péage on the motorway.


----------



## eomer

hofburg said:


> manned checks are usually warned before with lights flashing


Oh....lights flashing and citizen band are a bit old fashioned now: better use a coyote 
http://www.onedirect.fr/produits/co...&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=googleps&utm_term=


----------



## verreme

hofburg said:


> manned checks are usually warned before with lights flashing


Drove from the Spanish border to the German one in Mulhouse last week. Encountered 4 speed traps on the way; was warned just once, and when I was already too close to it (laser guns will get you from very far away).

Your chance of getting caught if speeding on French motorways is really high. Some French keep speeding though, I wonder how many points do they have on their licenses because it's very common to see them being flashed by _trépieds_ mounted on white Ford Focuses.


----------



## Road_UK

Not that many French speeders these days. I find that most of the speeders in France are Dutch, Belgians and Brits...


----------



## hofburg

If I am doing long distances I usually drive at 135-138, gps measured speed, not the car speedometer. I think that's still legal...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

My experience is also that the French drive fairly tame on motorways. Of course it's a bit different in and around the major cities, but that happens everywhere. Most speeders are indeed the Dutch who want to make a dash for the south.


----------



## Fane40

hofburg said:


> manned checks are usually warned before with lights flashing



Difficult to see a speed control on highways ,they are well hidden.
Use lights flashing is common everywhere but not easy on highways.
And I observe that there is less and less drivers who prevent a speed control.
I don't use this manner since I have a "coyote" (sort of CB), or very few.


----------



## Fane40

ChrisZwolle said:


> My experience is also that the French drive fairly tame on motorways. Of course it's a bit different in and around the major cities, but that happens everywhere. Most speeders are indeed the Dutch who want to make a dash for the south.


Don't forget the Brits and Germans cars. Own experience.


----------



## Fane40

hofburg said:


> If I am doing long distances I usually drive at 135-138, gps measured speed, not the car speedometer. I think that's still legal...



Yes, it's still legal. Gps or coyote are very accurate.


----------



## verreme

A video I made of eastern Lyon bypass (A46 and N346). Part 2 will feature the northern leg of this route.








Road_UK said:


> Not that many French speeders these days. I find that most of the speeders in France are Dutch, Belgians and Brits...


Yes, very few. There are still some though, and they make for the perfect rabbit , because they'll recognize speed traps and brake giving you some extra time. Foreigners just drive by and don't seem to mind until they get pulled over.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Does the A46 take much of the transit traffic (instead of A6+A7)?


----------



## hofburg

what kind of engine makes this high pitched sound?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> Does the A46 take much of the transit traffic (instead of A6+A7)?


Both are loaded to capacity. A46 also serves a huge industrial area with many trucks originating there. Much of the south and east of the Lyon metropolitan area is industrial.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> Both [A6+A7 and A46+N346] are loaded to capacity.


This will eventually be relieved somewhat by the planned extension of the A72 to Valence.


----------



## verreme

Coccodrillo said:


> Does the A46 take much of the transit traffic (instead of A6+A7)?


A6 through Lyon metro reaches 100.000 vehicles per day, whilst N346 handles 90.000 on its busiest stretch. Tunnel de Fourvière in A6 is banned for trucks >7.5t.



hofburg said:


> what kind of engine makes this high pitched sound?


A 2.0 16V petrol... at 3x speed :lol:


----------



## Fane40

^^
Yes, I agree with my colleague, it is a major route between the north and southwestern Europe. More Morocco. We see more and more trucks from there.
Maybe soon from Senegal ? 
Seriously, we need a 3+3 highway between the spanish border and St Geours de Maremne (exit 70 km after the border towards some smalls cities to the east, more Toulouse and Agen with the Garonne valley with a lot of fresh products.)
Widening between the border and Biarritz tollgate will begin this autumn for 4 years.
The A63 is already 3+3 between Biarritz and Ondres (exit 7) because of the A64, harbour and aeronautics industries.
No widening is planned between exit 7 and 9 (st geours de maremne).
The main problem is towards Bordeaux between the interchange 22 (Arcachon Bay) and the Bordeaux ringroad.
The traffic is completely congested in the morning (7.30 at 9.30 am) and the afternoon (5 at 7 pm).
A small accident at any moment and all is blocked. A nightmare. 
The western section of the ringroad is only 2 +2 and nobody knows when roadworks for the widening in 3+3 of these two road problems will be solved.
Bordeaux needs an other bypass by the east I think but all previsions have been deleted.
For political reasons, environmental (wine and two big rivers to cross) and cost.

I like the second bypass of my basque neighbour in SS and Bilbao.
When they decide to do something to have a good traffic, they do !


----------



## Fane40

Does somebody know AADT of main roads in the south west of France ?
Thanks


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.dir.atlantique.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/trafic-moyen-journalier-annuel-a309.html

N10 (now converted to A63) carried 30.000 vehicles per day during the last count in 2010. 30 - 33% are trucks.


----------



## Fane40

ChrisZwolle said:


> http://www.dir.atlantique.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/trafic-moyen-journalier-annuel-a309.html
> 
> N10 (now converted to A63) carried 30.000 vehicles per day during the last count in 2010. 30 - 33% are trucks.


Thank you very much !
Do you know at which number of vehicles they decide to built a 2+2 , 3+3 ,etc.... ?


----------



## Suburbanist

Fane40 said:


> Thank you very much !
> Do you know at which number of vehicles they decide to built a 2+2 , 3+3 ,etc.... ?


Depends much on % of trucks among traffic. One truck has the effect of around 3.5-4.0 cars on traffic on normal highways, more on steep grades.


----------



## verreme

^^ 33% of trucks is insane. I think no Spanish road has such a share of heavy traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ N-II has a truck share of 71%.


----------



## Road_UK

Yes. Parallel on the A10 between Bordeaux and Poitiers there is a dual carriageway where all the lorries go as it's toll free. Hardly any freight traffic on the A10. I stick with the A10 because I don't pay tolls anyway, my boss does due to little freight traffic can get to either Paris or Bordeaux fast. 

Do we have statistics for freight traffic on that parallel road? Can't remember the route number...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

N10 runs from Poitiers via Angoulême to near Bordeaux. Traffic volumes are mostly around 20 000 vehicles per day (truck share 30 - 45%) except in Angoulême where 44 000 vehicles per day are recorded (truck share 24%)

Truck shares are the highest south of Angoulême, generally 40 - 45%. North of Angoulême the share is 30 - 37%.

There are no statistics available for toll roads. Concessionaires usually do not hand out detailed traffic volume information because their shares are traded on the stock market. Perhaps some data can be found with environmental reports.


----------



## javimix19

One question: if now the new N10 is tolled, is there a free alternative? Before I think N10 was a duplication of the old road, so where is the alternative? I don't know if you understand me


----------



## Fane40

javimix19 said:


> One question: if now the new N10 is tolled, is there a free alternative? Before I think N10 was a duplication of the old road, so where is the alternative? I don't know if you understand me



See my post July 20, 2013 11.07 pm


----------



## Fane40

Road_UK said:


> Yes. Parallel on the A10 between Bordeaux and Poitiers there is a dual carriageway where all the lorries go as it's toll free. Hardly any freight traffic on the A10. I stick with the A10 because I don't pay tolls anyway, my boss does due to little freight traffic can get to either Paris or Bordeaux fast.
> 
> Do we have statistics for freight traffic on that parallel road? Can't remember the route number...


You prefer to take the A 10 instead of N 10 between Poitiers and Bordeaux ?
You only win 15 minutes and your boss pays the toll.
You are lucky.


----------



## Fane40

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ N-II has a truck share of 71%.


N I between Miranda and Burgos has a big trucks traffic also.


----------



## ElviS77

ChrisZwolle said:


> N-II has a truck share of 71%.


That's insanely high. Where on the N-II is that and what's the overall AADT?


----------



## Road_UK

Fane40 said:


> You prefer to take the A 10 instead of N 10 between Poitiers and Bordeaux ?
> You only win 15 minutes and your boss pays the toll.
> You are lucky.


I did the N10 once a long time ago, when I did an assignment with a colleague who is a subcontractor on our way to Toledo , and he did have to pay his own tolls and fuel. We decided to stick together. It was at the time when coming from Calais the A28 from Rouen to Tours wasn't there yet, and the N10 at Angoulême wasn't fully 2x2. At that time I'd normally always use A26, A1 to Paris and just sit on the A10, N10 south of Bordeaux and A63. Now we ended up going via Rouen, Dreux, Chartres and join the A10 at Orleans. That route was very popular with Spanish and Portuguese truckers, and I vouched that I'd never go that way again. 

Now, obviously since the A28 has been completed, I go via Rouen, Le Mans, Tours and join the A10 there. And I stick with the A10 all the way to Bordeaux...


----------



## verreme

ElviS77 said:


> That's insanely high. Where on the N-II is that and what's the overall AADT?


Alfajarín-Fraga. AADT is 10.000 vehicles per day (2010).

N-232 west of Zaragoza and N-I east of Burgos also have truck shares of around 50%. I didn't really expect that.


----------



## cougar1989

I will show you some pictures from my Roadtrip trough the EU+EFTA from 15/07/13 until 19/07/13.
A31 - A33 - N333 - N59 - N159 - N59 - A35 - A36 - A35


----------



## cougar1989

France part 2 A41 - A43


----------



## Fane40

Road_UK said:


> I did the N10 once a long time ago, when I did an assignment with a colleague who is a subcontractor on our way to Toledo , and he did have to pay his own tolls and fuel. We decided to stick together. It was at the time when coming from Calais the A28 from Rouen to Tours wasn't there yet, and the N10 at Angoulême wasn't fully 2x2. At that time I'd normally always use A26, A1 to Paris and just sit on the A10, N10 south of Bordeaux and A63. Now we ended up going via Rouen, Dreux, Chartres and join the A10 at Orleans. That route was very popular with Spanish and Portuguese truckers, and I vouched that I'd never go that way again.
> 
> Now, obviously since the A28 has been completed, I go via Rouen, Le Mans, Tours and join the A10 there. And I stick with the A10 all the way to Bordeaux...


Yes, if you don't want to lost your time, A10 is the best road to go towards Spain.
I've never used the "new" A28. Except when I go to Le Mans. Never after.
In Tours, I took the N10 by Vendôme, Chartres, Dreux, Evreux by the N154 when I went in Rouen or Le Havre. Or the N10 all the way to Paris when I went in the western suburb of the capital. 
An other good road ; in Angoulême , I take the N 141 (towards Limoges), then N 145 (Bellac), the free A20 up to Vierzon, then N20 instead of the A20 to Orleans, and after, always the N 20 or A 10 to Paris.
I've never taken the tolled A10 between Bordeaux and Poitiers for goods transport. I agree it's more quiet and safe.


----------



## hofburg

cougar1989 said:


>


40€ for this s**t :nuts:

nice pics btw


----------



## Road_UK

What long queues. I've never been in a long queue, and I am a regular... At times it takes a bit longer waiting at the toll plaza, especially when they've only got 1 or 2 counters open... And after you've paid they only let vehicle's through in intervals to stop everybody heading for the tunnel at once, and to secure the 150 metre safety distance...


----------



## OulaL

Road_UK said:


> What long queues. I've never been in a long queue, and I am a regular... At times it takes a bit longer waiting at the toll plaza, especially when they've only got 1 or 2 counters open... And after you've paid they only let vehicle's through in intervals to stop everybody heading for the tunnel at once, and to secure the 150 metre safety distance...


Will the tolls be removed when the tunnel has paid for itself? And if/when that happens, I wonder how much the traffic will increase...

Of course there will forever be maintenance costs, but they can't justify the toll that high, can they?


----------



## Road_UK

I don't think they will ever remove the tolls. Maintenance costs and the amount of staff employed are exceptionally high. All motorways on both ends are tolled as well, and all you need is a Belgium lorry and a number of deaths (which happened years ago) to throw lots of money into repair works...


----------



## jdb.2

Maybe interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLmPqskkhLU


----------



## Fane40

jdb.2 said:


> Maybe interesting
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLmPqskkhLU


:nuts:
I try to save money by avoiding most of toll highways when I have time before a delivery but this exemple is difficult to understand.
Try to save 2 or 3 euro by leaving highways 2 or 3 times is completely useless.For me.
Don't take toll highways at all if you are stingy or not enough rich.
This morning, two parisian vehicles in front of me on their route to Morocco (easy to know) preferred the very busy N10 in the Basque Country instead of the expensive A63.


----------



## 1772

*Cote d'Azur question*

Hello french people! 
After visiting the Cote d'Azur I have a question for you; 
Why dosen't the La Provencale Highway follow the coast all the way to Saint Maxime/Tropez? 
From Monaco to Cannes it follows the coast perfect up in the mountains, allowing one to pretty quickly go from one town to another, but after that you have either the slow coastal way or you have to go very far inland and take a small road through the forest to get to St. Maxime. 

I get that back in the days the western part of the Cote d'Azur wasn't that heavily populated, but nowadays there surely has to be enough people to qualify for a highway? 
It should start west of the Cannes Airport and go in the mountains at aproximately the same height as it does in the east part. 
After going north of St. Raphael and west of Rejus it could continue in the mountains until it reaches Saint Maxime and it could end in Grimaud and meet the D98 (and perhaps continue as a motorway all the way to Toulon and Marseille, thus having two motorways between the Cote and Marsielle; one inland for trucks and long-haul transportation and one along the sea for tourists and residents). 

Surely this must have been discussed at some point? 

Sincerely


----------



## Eulanthe

Road_UK said:


> I don't think they will ever remove the tolls. Maintenance costs and the amount of staff employed are exceptionally high. All motorways on both ends are tolled as well, and all you need is a Belgium lorry and a number of deaths (which happened years ago) to throw lots of money into repair works...


Before the fire in Mont Blanc, it was very profitable for the French state - I seem to recall numbers of around 5 million Euro profit a year - which may partially explain why the status quo was allowed to exist before the fire.

But they will never remove the tolls there, or even lower them. The tolls there (and at Frejus) exist to suppress demand, and most residents there would be happy if the truck tolls were doubled or even tripled. 

What's interesting to me is the infrastructure that exists around those tunnels compared to the infrastructure in Austria.


----------



## g.spinoza

Eulanthe said:


> But they will never remove the tolls there, or even lower them. The tolls there (and at Frejus) exist to suppress demand, and most residents there would be happy if the truck tolls were doubled or even tripled.


If they didn't want trucks, they shouldn't have built those tunnels in the first place. Building such an expensive infrastructure and using below its capabilities is nonsense and stupid, to me.


----------



## x-type

does somebody have the history of toll amounts at Frejus and Mt Blanc? were they always so expensive?


----------



## 1772

Hmm, is this forum only about the existence of tolls?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Vive la France !


----------



## Fane40

1772 said:


> Hmm, is this forum only about the existence of tolls?


Maybe an other subject if you don't like this one ...?


----------



## Fane40

x-type said:


> does somebody have the history of toll amounts at Frejus and Mt Blanc? were they always so expensive?


They are always expensive. First because a tunnel is of course very expensive to build.Second, to win money when users don't have any other alternative.
Except if you want to climb the Alps even in winter.
We are not in a communist country . You want ? You pay !


----------



## Penn's Woods

You'll pay about $30.00 to drive the Pennsylvania Turnpike from end to end; 360 miles (a bit over 500 km) including about four mountain tunnels. And we're not a Communist country either.  (Of course, the Appalachians aren't the Alps....)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Fréjus Tunnel also happens to be almost 4 times longer than the Eisenhower Tunnel.

I think the tolls are so high to harmonize it with alternate routes and to cope with the low AADT of only 4 500 vehicles per day.


----------



## Fane40

1772 said:


> *Cote d'Azur question*
> 
> Hello french people!
> After visiting the Cote d'Azur I have a question for you;
> Why dosen't the La Provencale Highway follow the coast all the way to Saint Maxime/Tropez?
> From Monaco to Cannes it follows the coast perfect up in the mountains, allowing one to pretty quickly go from one town to another, but after that you have either the slow coastal way or you have to go very far inland and take a small road through the forest to get to St. Maxime.
> 
> I get that back in the days the western part of the Cote d'Azur wasn't that heavily populated, but nowadays there surely has to be enough people to qualify for a highway?
> It should start west of the Cannes Airport and go in the mountains at aproximately the same height as it does in the east part.
> After going north of St. Raphael and west of Rejus it could continue in the mountains until it reaches Saint Maxime and it could end in Grimaud and meet the D98 (and perhaps continue as a motorway all the way to Toulon and Marseille, thus having two motorways between the Cote and Marsielle; one inland for trucks and long-haul transportation and one along the sea for tourists and residents).
> 
> Surely this must have been discussed at some point?
> 
> Sincerely


I'm absolutely not a specialist of highways historic but they don't want of an other highway to the south between Toulon and St Raphael.
Because of magnificent mountains, an other destruction of the landscape, very expensive land, to restrict number of vehicles,....
Maybe other reasons , only local politicians can give you a better reply.


----------



## g.spinoza

Fane40 said:


> They are always expensive. First because a tunnel is of course very expensive to build.Second, to win money when users don't have any other alternative.
> Except if you want to climb the Alps even in winter.
> We are not in a communist country . You want ? You pay !


Twin bore Gran Sasso tunnel isn't tolled (apart from normal motorway toll); Gotthard tunnel isn't tolled (apart from normal vignette). Italy and Switzerland are not communist, either.

Tunnels are supposed to join. A 40€ tunnel just divides: these tunnels are expensive pieces of engineering but basically they don't solve the problem they were created for.


----------



## Penn's Woods

(Response re the length of the Fréjus tunnel: ) Well, there you are then. (Although there's no toll at all on the Eisenhower, is there?)

But even flat French (and Spanish, and Italian...) autoroutes are far more expensive than American toll roads, while while their neighbors to the north have no tolls.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> But even flat French (and Spanish, and Italian...) autoroutes are far more expensive than American toll roads, while while their neighbors to the north have no tolls.


If you compare older toll roads like the Pennsylvania Turnpike, Indiana Toll Road or the turnpikes in Oklahoma, then yes, American toll roads are much cheaper than French toll roads. However if you compare it with more recently constructed toll roads in say Dallas or Florida, then tolls are more similar. The NTTA levies a toll of $ 0.16 per mile, which is closer to the rate of the toll roads in Southern Europe. Not to mention express lanes with dynamic pricing, which can go up to $ 1 per mile.


----------



## Fane40

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Fréjus Tunnel also happens to be almost 4 times longer than the Eisenhower Tunnel.
> 
> I think the tolls are so high to harmonize it with alternate routes and to cope with the low AADT of only 4 500 vehicles per day.



Of course ,you're right.
A high price to avoid too much vehicles and problems with accidents (and to lose money), but enough acceptable to offer a good solution.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> If you compare older toll roads like the Pennsylvania Turnpike, Indiana Toll Road or the turnpikes in Oklahoma, then yes, American toll roads are much cheaper than French toll roads. However if you compare it with more recently constructed toll roads in say Dallas or Florida, then tolls are more similar. The NTTA levies a toll of $ 0.16 per mile, which is closer to the rate of the toll roads in Southern Europe. Not to mention express lanes with dynamic pricing, which can go up to $ 1 per mile.


Sure, but I'm not sure a short-haul toll road in a metropolitan area used mostly by commuters (and which was probably fairly expensive to build, per mile/km, due to land costs alone) is comparable to an intercity one. But I'm not trying to start something. :cheers:


----------



## Fane40

Penn's Woods said:


> You'll pay about $30.00 to drive the Pennsylvania Turnpike from end to end; 360 miles (a bit over 500 km) including about four mountain tunnels. And we're not a Communist country either.  (Of course, the Appalachians aren't the Alps....)


Unfortunately, my country ,and Europe, are not the same sense about displacement.
Your fuel is low, price of your vehicles too, very few tollroads, ...
What a happiness.
I know you're not a communist country.
But you like to protect and to buy your own products and to oppose resistance from foreign countries.
You know, with France and our agricultural products ! 
We must have your same sense of protection. But our politicians are afraid.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I understand we're relatively spoiled ("gâtés", I think?) here. I'm actually hoping to be able to take a European road trip soon - see some of the places we keep talking about here - so I'm very conscious at the moment of what that would cost.

Bien à vous.


----------



## Fane40

g.spinoza said:


> Twin bore Gran Sasso tunnel isn't tolled (apart from normal motorway toll); Gotthard tunnel isn't tolled (apart from normal vignette). Italy and Switzerland are not communist, either.
> 
> Tunnels are supposed to join. A 40€ tunnel just divides: these tunnels are expensive pieces of engineering but basically they don't solve the problem they were created for.


I would prefer to pay a vignette to use all my national highways, like in CH, A,... or not to pay at all.
I pay enough tax I think for my country. But not enough for some others.
But, we are in a country where users pay for utilization. Highways and tunnels.
We had to accept it.


----------



## Fane40

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^I understand we're relatively spoiled ("gâtés", I think?) here. I'm actually hoping to be able to take a European road trip soon - see some of the places we keep talking about here - so I'm very conscious at the moment of what that would cost.
> 
> Bien à vous.


Yes,_ gâtés_. Very good, without any mistake !
So, if you want to do a trip in Europe, don't forget to save money ! A lot of money ! But it depends of which countries and which kind of roads you will take.
Regards


----------



## Coccodrillo

x-type said:


> does somebody have the history of toll amounts at Frejus and Mt Blanc? were they always so expensive?


I don't, but I remember that in 2009 for a car it was around 33€ (now it is 41€/55$).

(33€ is 44$, at today's exchange rate)



ChrisZwolle said:


> I think the tolls are so high to harmonize it with alternate routes and to cope with the low AADT of only 4 500 vehicles per day.


Is the toll high because the traffic is low, or is the traffic low because the toll is high? Is the traffic low also because of the double border (both political and linguistic) effect?



ChrisZwolle said:


> The Fréjus Tunnel also happens to be almost 4 times longer than the Eisenhower Tunnel.


Note that there are no road tunnels longer than 3 km in North America, with the exception of the Big Dig in Boston (which is in a city, not a mountain) and the combined rail/road single lane/single track tunnel in Alaska (with a very low traffic).


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> I don't, but I remember that in 2009 for a car it was around 33€ (now it is 41€/55$).
> 
> (33€ is 44$, at today's exchange rate)


I don't remember exactly, but I payed something between 35€ and 38€ in 2011 at Frejus.



> Is the toll high because the traffic is low, or is the traffic low because the toll is high? Is the traffic low also because of the double border (both political and linguistic) effect?


Exactly. Just compare Frejus and Ventimiglia border AADTs, and discover the truth


----------



## Coccodrillo

I don't know how much decision power the Italian and French governments have, but I think they should reduce at least by half the tolls for private vehicles...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> Exactly. Just compare Frejus and Ventimiglia border AADTs, and discover the truth


I don't think you can really compare those. Ventimiglia is located on a much more important transit route, basically the only east-west route that connects southern Europe. Additionally, there is a much higher population density along the coast. There isn't a lot of population within 50 kilometers of the Fréjus Tunnel, which means they have to live off long-distance traffic.

Also, the Fréjus Tunnel has to compete with the Mont Blanc Tunnel over long-distance traffic. According to Google Maps, the time difference is only 1 minute when driving from Lyon to Milano.

However I do believe the high tolls are a major factor in the low traffic volume, even to the point that these valleys near it have not developed a lot of tourist infrastructure (apart from skiing). You don't go shopping in the other country with such tolls. But perhaps that's what they want, you know how mountain people feel about non-local traffic / people.


----------



## OulaL

Fane40 said:


> They are always expensive. First because a tunnel is of course very expensive to build.Second, to win money when users don't have any other alternative.
> Except if you want to climb the Alps even in winter.
> We are not in a communist country . You want ? You pay !





Coccodrillo said:


> I don't, but I remember that in 2009 for a car it was around 33€ (now it is 41€/55$).
> 
> (33€ is 44$, at today's exchange rate)


For comparison's sake, for 33 € you can drive through not only Gotthard tunnel (longer than Mt Blanc or Fréjus), but the whole Switzerland from Basel to Chiasso. As many times a year as you wish :cheers:


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> I don't think you can really compare those. Ventimiglia is located on a much more important transit route, basically the only east-west route that connects southern Europe. Additionally, there is a much higher population density along the coast. There isn't a lot of population within 50 kilometers of the Fréjus Tunnel, which means they have to live off long-distance traffic.


I don't agree. Basically everyone from Po Plain wanting to go to central France has to travel through Frejus or Mont Blanc. Po Plan has some 30 million inhabitants.



> Also, the Fréjus Tunnel has to compete with the Mont Blanc Tunnel over long-distance traffic. According to Google Maps, the time difference is only 1 minute when driving from Lyon to Milano.


Frejus and Mont Blanc combined don't even come close to Ventimiglia. That's only because of tolls, not because there's no demand.




> However I do believe the high tolls are a major factor in the low traffic volume, even to the point that these valleys near it have not developed a lot of tourist infrastructure (apart from skiing). You don't go shopping in the other country with such tolls. But perhaps that's what they want, you know how mountain people feel about non-local traffic / people.


That's true. But I don't think Italian Isarco Valley (Wipptal) is suffering from Brenner through traffic. Hell, A5 from Aosta to the tunnel is totally on tunnels... locals cannot be disturbed by that.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> I don't agree. Basically everyone from Po Plain wanting to go to central France has to travel through Frejus or Mont Blanc. Po Plan has some 30 million inhabitants.


But those trips are too long to generate a high average daily traffic. Torino - Lyon is already 300 kilometers and people don't make international trips nearly as often as domestic trips, unless it's for local cross-border shopping, which the high tolls rule out. 

The Netherlands has some of the busiest border crossings in Europe and the bulk of traffic is fairly local (< 100 km), either for taxation-induced international shopping or for cross-border commuting to work. There are many Dutch living in Germany and Belgium to work in a nearby Dutch city. I don't think many Italians live in France and commute to Torino or other Italian cities.


----------



## hofburg

EU should intervene for lower tolls... as they did when Slovenia introduced only year and half-year vignette. the reason is the same - blocking free flow of people and goods within inner EU market.

think of it as if the tunnel would be only in Italy or only in France, do you think the toll would be the same?


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> But those trips are too long to generate a high average daily traffic. Torino - Lyon is already 300 kilometers and people don't make international trips nearly as often as domestic trips, unless it's for local cross-border shopping, which the high tolls rule out.
> 
> The Netherlands has some of the busiest border crossings in Europe and the bulk of traffic is fairly local (< 100 km), either for taxation-induced international shopping or for cross-border commuting to work. There are many Dutch living in Germany and Belgium to work in a nearby Dutch city. I don't think many Italians live in France and commute to Torino or other Italian cities.


It's the Alps we're talking about. Nobody crosses the Alps as a daily commute.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> ....I don't think many Italians live in France and commute to Torino or other Italian cities.


With those tolls, they wouldn't! :jk:


----------



## TrentSteele

Penn's Woods said:


> Sure, but I'm not sure a short-haul toll road in a metropolitan area used mostly by commuters (and which was probably fairly expensive to build, per mile/km, due to land costs alone) is comparable to an intercity one. But I'm not trying to start something. :cheers:


It all boils down to different views on transportation. In America the car is sacred and the land is cheap. Thus, you get massive subsidization for cheaper-to-build roads. In Europe, land is expensive and public transportation is much more favorably viewed; you don't absolutely *need* a car. This makes motorways a luxury that you don't *need* (you will never find a tolled road that doesn't have a non-tolled alternative), but a convenience you pay for, and the state can spend its money on other things.


----------



## Coccodrillo

g.spinoza said:


> It's the Alps we're talking about. Nobody crosses the Alps as a daily commute.


There are daily commuters between Domodossola I and Brig CH (Wallis) through the Simplon, and between Wallis and Bern cantons through the Lötschberg, nearly all by train (Domodossola-Brig takes 30 minutes, Brig-Bern around one hour).


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Yeah ok, nobody doesn't necessarily mean zero.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ But these are certainly more than on the Fréjus.


----------



## OulaL

TrentSteele said:


> (you will never find a tolled road that doesn't have a non-tolled alternative)


Great Belt and Øresund bridges in Denmark/Sweden. Also all routes through Oslo metropolitan area from west to east or vice versa.


----------



## vatse

*A43 from St-Jean-de-Maurienne to junction with A430*


IMG_9206 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9208 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9210 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9211 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9212 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9213 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9214 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9216 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9217 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9218 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## Minato ku

A peak of 877 km of traffic jam today, still over 500 km of traffic jam at 7 PM.


----------



## vatse

IMG_9219 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9220 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9221 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9222 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

*A430 from A43 to Albertville*


IMG_9223 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9224 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9225 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9226 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9227 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9228 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9229 by vatse, on Flickr

End of A430, start of N90

IMG_9230 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

*N90 from A430 to Albertville*


IMG_9231 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9232 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9233 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9234 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9235 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9236 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

*D1212 from Albertville to Ugine*


IMG_9237 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9238 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9239 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9240 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9241 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_9242 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## sotonsi

hofburg said:


> any particular reason why A46 is downgraded to expressway N346?


Other way around - "any particular reason why the N346 hasn't been upgraded to A46?"


Penn's Woods said:


> :lol:
> I'm having a vision of two little old ladies shouting at each other.
> 
> (It's "Deux Mers" - Two Seas. For obvious reasons.)


That's the problem of working from memory of how to spell something in a language that you haven't studied for a long time...


Penn's Woods said:


> ^^I'm saying the *idea* that there's an "official route for Marseille" - by which I assume Hofburg means the way the signs for Marseille lead you - seems a little strange to me.


I assumed that is what Hofburg meant to, but didn't find the idea strange.


> There's nothing "official" about it.


Surely there is? It's the way that official bodies/officials want you to go. Of course they aren't forcing you, but they are telling you "go this way to get to this place".


> You look at the map, see that option A is shorter but option B avoids a major city, think about how many people will be using option B because it avoids said major city, listen to the traffic reports....


Yes, of course there's many options.

RoadUK chose to divert from the 'official' signed route by going through Lyon: your 'option A' for shorter. The 'official' signed route takes your 'option B' and dodges Lyon. Traffic reports might send you all sorts of different ways to avoid problems - eg following the Paris ver A5 signage at the A19 junction, etc. However the existence of other routes does not negate the 'official' status of the signed route.

The other day, I hit a diversion. SatNav said take minor roads to avoid it, but the offical, signed, diversion (which I took as I could see how crazy the Sat Nav was being, basically dumping me on the bit that was closed having taken some really narrow lanes to get there) went via major A roads. Coming back, I took my own unofficial diversion that was considerably shorter than (only 1 mile longer than the direct route, not over 5 miles longer) and on main roads (contra Sat Nav).


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## Penn's Woods

sotonsi said:


> Other way around - "any particular reason why the N346 hasn't been upgraded to A46?"


Here, *I*'m going to take a turn at interpreting Hofburg. From a chronological point of view, you're right; the N346 hasn't been upgraded, but from a, spatial I guess, point of view, the A46 downgrades to Route Nationale for a stretch and I assume he's asking why.



sotonsi said:


> Surely there is? It's the way that official bodies/officials want you to go.


Sure. Just that coming from a country where we tend to navigate by route numbers rather than destinations (and where sensible posting of destinations is unreliable, to put it mildly...), I'd treat such things as, at most, recommendations. Which I disregard all the time. (I ignore this "Baltimore" probably nine times out of ten, since both routes will actually get you there...: https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&...oid=zQrBb1c2TMC5qIwRn6GlrQ&cbp=12,217.14,,0,0 )


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## verreme

vatse said:


> *D1212 from Albertville to Ugine*


Wonderful! I have to visit this part of France some day.


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## slickman

Is there any solution planned to get the tollbooth of Biriatou wider at the Spanish-French boarder? I know that the tollbooth was rebuild recently, but it causes a traffic jam about 10km in these days back to the Irun tollbooth.


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## hseugut

Probably the best motorways in Europe but way too expansive !


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## Road_UK

slickman said:


> Is there any solution planned to get the tollbooth of Biriatou wider at the Spanish-French boarder? I know that the tollbooth was rebuild recently, but it causes a traffic jam about 10km in these days back to the Irun tollbooth.


It used to be a lot worse before they've demolished the frontier plaza. I've been stuck there starting way beyond San Sebastian through to Le Boulou toll plaza. Especially in the summer holidays they'd often let you go for free at all three toll plazas between border and N10.


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## verreme

Road_UK said:


> It used to be a lot worse before they've demolished the frontier plaza. I've been stuck there starting way beyond San Sebastian through to Le Boulou toll plaza. Especially in the summer holidays they'd often let you go for free at all three toll plazas between border and N10.


¿Le Boulou? That's some 500+ kilometers of queue...


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## Road_UK

Well... The first peage after the border at Irun...


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## slickman

Road_UK said:


> Well... The first peage after the border at Irun...


It is called Biriatou. 
Pass the tollbooth for free? Never had this luck. Are you sure about that?


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## Road_UK

Yes. A few times in the summer it was so over congested that they simply kept the barriers open... Mostly the French returning home from Spain and Portugal...


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## DanielFigFoz

That's nice! Never had that happen before. And they demolished the plaza at the border, you mean where you had to throw coins into these litttle metal basket? I haven't been there for years.


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## Road_UK

No I actually meant the frontier facility buildings. The actual toll plazas are still there...


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## slickman

They build a new tollbooth a few meters closer to the boarder. 

I´m wondering why there is such a congestion only at this tollbooth. I guess 99% of the traffic passed the Irun tollbooth, too and they continue via A63 to the next stupid tollbooth, but there isn´t such a congestion like Biriatou.


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## javimix19

I live near the frontier between Spain and France and some days ago I went to an hypermarket in Baiona (Bayonne). We taken A8 motorway in spanish side and 5 km after Biriatou it was congested. My parents get nervous and we taken the exit in Irun to take the N10 in Hendaye. The A8-A63 was collapsed but N10 was good. Light traffic, we were surprised. 

Biriatou toll is a trap I think. The main reason of a motorway is to lighten the traffic and this toll don't help.


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## Road_UK

slickman said:


> They build a new tollbooth a few meters closer to the boarder.


When did this happen? I could feel the Spanish breathing in my neck when paying the tolls at the original toll booth...


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## slickman

^^ 2008/09

They build the new tollbooth where the boarder facilities were before. Take a look at google Streetview!

Now, the breath you felt is still wet


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## brisavoine

An interesting view of the motorway in the outskirts of Papeete, Tahiti, that I've found on the net.


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## Road_UK

brisavoine said:


> An interesting view of the motorway in the outskirts of Papeete, Tahiti, that I've found on the net.


Welcome back! Haven't seen you for a while.


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## Redouane

A10 (L'Aquitaine heading south):

















Construction sign on the A10:









Bordeaux-Centre: 16MN:









Rocade A630 (Bordeaux):


























A63:









Entering the A63:









Electronic Sign on the A63 (My Phone wasn't able to take a good picture of it..):









More A63:









































Took all those pictures last July while heading to Morocco.


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## Fane40

Took all those pictures last July while heading to Morocco. [/QUOTE]

I see you went through the northern and western Bordeaux bypass instead of eastern and southern parts of it.
Normally, I and people travelling to the south take the exit before the "pont d'aquitaine" bridge because of its 70 km/h speed limit and its f....g electronic radar at the bottom of the descent.
And this stretch is only a 2x2 lanes. 3x3 lanes for the other part.
A widening of a small stretch in under construction as we can see on your photos.
Don't forget to take the good exit the next time . But it's not doubtful.


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## Redouane

Haha, i don't know the road's around there so i just used my GPS.. I normally take the L'Autoroute Du Soleil till Lyon anyways, and then descend further past Montpellier, Perpignan etc..


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## Road_UK

Redouane said:


> Haha, i don't know the road's around there so i just used my GPS.. I normally take the L'Autoroute Du Soleil till Lyon anyways, and then descend further past Montpellier, Perpignan etc..


Ah, you prefer the longer and more expensive way instead of taking the Clermont-Ferrand route.


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## Redouane

Road_UK said:


> Ah, you prefer the longer and more expensive way instead of taking the Clermont-Ferrand route.


Nope, actually the A31 from the French/Luxembourg border till Lyon, and then the A7. Then onto the A9 till the Spanish border, and from there the AP-7/A7 all the way down till Algeciras.


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## Road_UK

Touristic routes. I use the Bordeaux route for Portugal, Madrid, Málaga and Gibraltar - and the Paris, Clermont-Ferrand route for Barcelona and Valencia...


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## Redouane

Road_UK said:


> Touristic routes. I use the Bordeaux route for Portugal, Madrid, Málaga and Gibraltar - and the Paris, Clermont-Ferrand route for Barcelona and Valencia...


Well, i have family in Dijon where i can rest/sleep at. (It's 700KM from my hometown) And the coastal route is better because there are like shops at the side of the road like everywhere.


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## Road_UK

Same as all other routes...


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## F81

Including as a bonus that the route through Clermont-Ferrand lets you drive on Viaduc de Milleau, if I'm not mistaken


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## Road_UK

That's right!


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## javimix19

Redouane said:


> Nope, actually the A31 from the French/Luxembourg border till Lyon, and then the A7. Then onto the A9 till the Spanish border, and from there the AP-7/A7 all the way down till Algeciras.


But AP-7 is tolled until Valencia, and if you go from Irun only have few tolls. A-8 until San Sebastian and then AP-1 between Miranda and Burgos. Toll free then until Algeciras.


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## Fane40

Redouane said:


> Haha, i don't know the road's around there so i just used my GPS.. I normally take the L'Autoroute Du Soleil till Lyon anyways, and then descend further past Montpellier, Perpignan etc..


Never believe a GPS :nuts:!
This is very good to find an address in a city or even in the middle of nowhere but useless, or less useful, when you travel.
That's only my opinion.
A map is still the best thing to choose a road, with the help of google maps for exemple before to take the road.
Those who did deliveries like me when we hadn't mobile phone and GPS know what I mean.


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## Fane40

javimix19 said:


> But AP-7 is tolled until Valencia, and if you go from Irun only have few tolls. A-8 until San Sebastian and then AP-1 between Miranda and Burgos. Toll free then until Algeciras.


And even without tolls between SS and Burgos with the A1 and good old N1.
I always take those roads when I'am not in a hurry.
Many portugueses and moroccans prefer them when they return to visit their families.


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## Redouane

(A63) Last Toll Booth - Spanish Border:


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## Daviedoff

A4 from Metz to Strasbourg (iNterchange A4xA35):


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## jdb.2

Road_UK said:


> Ah, you prefer the longer and more expensive way instead of taking the Clermont-Ferrand route.


I once drove from Spain to Belgium using the A75 instead of the Lyon route. The Clermont Ferrand route is only shorter on paper. In reality it's longer (in travel time) and more exhausting because of the curves and slopes, some sections are limited to only 90 or even 70. Unlike the A7 which is mostly very straight and has 2x3 lanes and has more frequent and larger rest areas. So you get more value for your toll money.

In term of costs in my experience there was no significant advantage in using the A75. Over long distances there is not a big difference in cost/km when passing north-south through France for both routes. Plus you get to refuel a bit cheaper in Luxembourg if you use the Lyon route.

The only advantage i can think of for using the A75 is the more scenic landscapes (at least if you drive through it by day), and it can serve as an alternative if there are traffic jams on the A9/A7.


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## Reivajar

Redouane said:


> A63:


The Bilbao destination is new? It is the first time I saw it signposted on the A63


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## Reivajar

jdb.2 said:


> I once drove from Spain to Belgium using the A75 instead of the Lyon route. The Clermont Ferrand route is only shorter on paper. In reality it's longer (in travel time) and more exhausting because of the curves and slopes, some sections are limited to only 90 or even 70. Unlike the A7 which is mostly very straight and has 2x3 lanes and has more frequent and larger rest areas. So you get more value for your toll money.
> 
> In term of costs in my experience there was no significant advantage in using the A75. Over long distances there is not a big difference in cost/km when passing north-south through France for both routes. Plus you get to refuel a bit cheaper in Luxembourg if you use the Lyon route.
> 
> The only advantage i can think of for using the A75 is the more scenic landscapes (at least if you drive through it by day), and it can serve as an alternative if there are traffic jams on the A9/A7.


Well, for being a free motorway and much less used than the A7-A9 route is not that bad. Actually the only complicated stretch I remember is the area around St-Félix-del-l'Hélas... the rest is relatively gentle, not as gentle as running along the Rhône valley, but it is fair.


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## MrAkumana

jdb.2 said:


> I once drove from Spain to Belgium using the A75 instead of the Lyon route. The Clermont Ferrand route is only shorter on paper. In reality it's longer (in travel time) and more exhausting because of the curves and slopes, some sections are limited to only 90 or even 70. Unlike the A7 which is mostly very straight and has 2x3 lanes and has more frequent and larger rest areas. So you get more value for your toll money.
> 
> The only advantage i can think of for using the A75 is the more scenic landscapes (at least if you drive through it by day), and it can serve as an alternative if there are traffic jams on the A9/A7.


I drove several times on both motorways and it's hard to say than one it's a better option than the other...

A-75 has some very low speed limits at some parts and the driving it's a bit more complicated (or entertaining -depending on the mood you are-). BUT it doesn't go through any major city which it's the main problem of A9-A7, that forces you to suffer eventual traffic jams at Montpellier, Nimes and (the main problem): Lyon.


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## Suburbanist

A75 is better if you are in a car. Now if you are driving some loaded cargo van or a truck, then maybe A7/A9 is better


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## verreme

Noone has mentioned A20 so far, and it's a pretty good route, too. Most of it is pretty new and smooth, and very quiet, too.


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## Reivajar

Well, that's true the A20 is OK too... I've taken sometime for moving from Paris to the Basque Country to avoid the A10 through Limoges, N141, Angoulême and N10 to Bordeaux... not that bad, and much calmer than the A10 for sure. I find kind of boring the A10 between Bordeaux and Poitiers. :lol:

There is a thing I don't like about the A20 though: it is toll-free in the flatest part, and it becomes tolled in the most abrupted part...:lol:

However for going from Paris to the Mediterranean coast is not that good except if you wanna have a fun time crossing the Pyrenees.


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## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> A75 is better if you are in a car. Now if you are driving some loaded cargo van or a truck, then maybe A7/A9 is better


I have always used A75, even in a loaded van. There's a slow bendy and steep bit, but the rest of the road is fine. It's quiet and free.


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## Fane40

Of course, for all of us, it depends of our starting point.
And the place where we go.
I used once or two the A75 all the long between Clermont -Fd and A 9 around Montpellier.
But the Millau viaduct was not built at this time. Very curvy, mountainous but very quiet.
It's not my route usually when I go to the center or eastern France.
A9 is perfect all the while except during rush hours and holidays.
It depnds of your budget for holidays or for your job.

But, somebody has already took the A 89 between Clermont -Fd and Bordeaux ?
There are more rabbits than vehicles.
I don't know the AADT but certainly very low.


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## ChrisZwolle

Fane40 said:


> But, somebody has already took the A 89 between Clermont -Fd and Bordeaux ?
> There are more rabbits than vehicles.
> I don't know the AADT but certainly very low.


Mostly 6 000 - 9 000 vehicles per day. Although it links two large cities, they are far apart and tolls on the A89 are too high. Bordeaux - Clermont-Ferrand costs € 33,40, probably more than what the average driver spends on fuel on that trip... :/


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## Fane40

Reivajar said:


> Well, that's true the A20 is OK too... I've taken sometime for moving from Paris to the Basque Country to avoid the A10 through Limoges, N141, Angoulême and N10 to Bordeaux... not that bad, and much calmer than the A10 for sure. I find kind of boring the A10 between Bordeaux and Poitiers. :lol:
> 
> There is a thing I don't like about the A20 though: it is toll-free in the flatest part, and it becomes tolled in the most abrupted part...:lol:
> 
> However for going from Paris to the Mediterranean coast is not that good except if you wanna have a fun time crossing the Pyrenees.


It's my route when I go to Paris (Bordeaux, N10 (Angoulême), A 20, A10 or N 20 north of Orleans).
Better than the entire A10. And cheaper.
But you can choose an other alternative (Bordeaux , N10 up to Poitiers, A 10 up to Tours, N 10 to Paris).


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## Reivajar

It depends on your origin and destination, but personally, when driving east-west in central France I prefer to drive along the Route Centre-Europe Atlantique. Really calm, maybe not a full expressway but fine for me.


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## Reivajar

Fane40 said:


> It's my route when I go to Paris (Bordeaux, N10 (Angoulême), A 20, A10 or N 20 north of Orleans).
> Better than the entire A10. And cheaper.
> But you can choose an other alternative (Bordeaux , N10 up to Poitiers, A 10 up to Tours, N 10 to Paris).


Yes, that's right... usually I change the route among several paths between the N20 and the N10 for not getting bored. Even once I drove along the old national road between Orléans and Tours... what a pain!


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## Fane40

ChrisZwolle said:


> Mostly 6 000 - 9 000 vehicles per day. Although it links two large cities, they are far apart and tolls on the A89 are too high. Bordeaux - Clermont-Ferrand costs € 33,40, probably more than what the average driver spends on fuel on that trip... :/


Faster than lightning Chris !
You're right, tolls are very expensive but this highway is very practical.
The old parallel national was a nightmare before.
But at the junction with the A20, I normally take the national road to Clermont Fd, because of the toll price, the quietness of this part and the better quality of the road. Before, there are too many villages to cross,and bad quality of the road.
I'm sure the new A65 between Langon and Pau (in the SW) has less vehicles. Because the old road is perfect (except in the south) and the traffic is low generally.
Do you have the AADT ?


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## Fane40

Reivajar said:


> It depends on your origin and destination, but personally, when driving east-west in central France I prefer to drive along the Route Centre-Europe Atlantique. Really calm, maybe not a full expressway but fine for me.


You are with a truck ?
I know the RCEA . I use it once to go to Lyon. Not necessary for me.
But when you go to the East and North-east, yes, it's the good solution.
We're waiting for a 2x2 since a long time all the way. But it's not for tomorrow.


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## Reivajar

No... I am not a truck driver... hehehe :lol:

Why, it is used by lots of trucks? Usually I've driven along that route during the evening and late evening or early in the morning and I haven't seen lots of heavy traffic.


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## Fane40

Reivajar said:


> Yes, that's right... usually I change the route among several paths between the N20 and the N10 for not getting bored. Even once I drove along the old national road between Orléans and Tours... what a pain!


Between Orleans and Tours ?!
Yes, to visit castles along the Loire river.
Not for me. On this stretch, I prefer the toll highway. Even if I have to pay it.
Same thing between Tours and Poitiers.


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## ChrisZwolle

Fane40 said:


> I'm sure the new A65 between Langon and Pau (in the SW) has less vehicles. Because the old road is perfect (except in the south) and the traffic is low generally.
> Do you have the AADT ?


It had 5 600 vehicles per day in the first year of operation, but I don't know if this is a segment volume, or the total amount of transactions for the entire route (if it is the latter, you can't directly compare it to regular traffic counts).


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## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> Mostly 6 000 - 9 000 vehicles per day. Although it links two large cities, they are far apart and tolls on the A89 are too high. Bordeaux - Clermont-Ferrand costs € 33,40, probably more than what the average driver spends on fuel on that trip... :/


It doesn't help that Chirac was from Brieve: a route via Angolmene and Limoges between Bordeaux and Clermont Ferrard would have picked up more traffic (and as partially built, would have been cheaper for both Government and users).


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## Reivajar

Fane40 said:


> Between Orleans and Tours ?!
> Yes, to visit castles along the Loire river.
> Not for me. On this stretch, I prefer the toll highway. Even if I have to pay it.
> Same thing between Tours and Poitiers.


Even I remember that crossing Tours without motorway was horrible...

Well, at the end it depends on the time your have and how much fun you wanna have


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## Fane40

Reivajar said:


> No... I am not a truck driver... hehehe :lol:
> 
> Why, it is used by lots of trucks? Usually I've driven along that route during the evening and late evening or early in the morning and I haven't seen lots of heavy traffic.


It's the road of trucks !
A very dangerous road because cars overtake everywhere when they are impatient. And many drivers in all vehicles fall asleep.
There are plenty of radars and police checks today.
Trucks take this road between Portugal, western Spain to go to Eastern europe, Germany,.....


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## Fane40

Reivajar said:


> Even I remember that crossing Tours without motorway was horrible...
> 
> Well, at the end it depends on the time your have and how much fun you wanna have


I prefer this kind of fun when sceneries are beautiful.
Like when I take mountainous roads.Or coastal roads.
But not along the A10, very boring. 
Fortunately for me, I live in a quiet place. Some of the forumers don't like my place because they think it's a no man's land.
Yes and no, but I don't live in Extremadura (E) or Alentejo (P) !
And I hate traffic jams !


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## Reivajar

Dax? Well, for me Les Landes are just calm and lovely... and my source for cheap pinewood... hahahaha


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## Fane40

ChrisZwolle said:


> It had 5 600 vehicles per day in the first year of operation, but I don't know if this is a segment volume, or the total amount of transactions for the entire route (if it is the latter, you can't directly compare it to regular traffic counts).


My local newspaper wrote that this highway is already in the red.
The traffic is very low and always will be low.
Our local politicians decided to built this highway instead to widen the road in 2x2.
Too bad for us. We will have to pay for both tomorrow.
I drove once all the way of this A65 and the price for a van is incredibily high.
I was sick !


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## Fane40

Reivajar said:


> Dax? Well, for me Les Landes are just calm and lovely... and my source for cheap pinewood... hahahaha


Yes, always pretty girls on the beach, surfing, feria ( almost like in Spain), Pyrennees mountains and Basque country not too far. And good cookery, we are in a rural place.
I always tell:
This we can do today ,we also can do it tomorrow. 
Our way of life.


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## verreme

Damn boring US Interstates


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## Fane40

verreme said:


> Damn boring US Interstates
> 
> Where is it ?
> I don't think it's near where I live because missing pineforest .
> Or corn !
> But it looks like the highway N10 was here 15-20 years ago without guardrails, trees in the middle, and with crossroads.


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## Fane40

Fane40 said:


> My local newspaper wrote that this highway is already in the red.
> The traffic is very low and always will be low.
> Our local politicians decided to built this highway instead to widen the road in 2x2.
> Too bad for us. We will have to pay for both tomorrow.
> I drove once all the way of this A65 and the price for a van is incredibily high.
> I was sick !


An article (in french) published today in the local newspaper about what I said of the A65 in the south west.

http://www.sudouest.fr/2013/10/14/l-a-65-n-en-finit-pas-de-perdre-de-l-argent-1198419-2932.php


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## verreme

It's N568 west of Martigues. Probably the longest straight of France. And also the flattest. And the one with the widest median. Very uncommon in Europe, looks totally American.


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## Sesto Elemento

By Brisavoine today:



brisavoine said:


> The motorway/freeway replacing the section of the old N88 road between La Croix de Mille and Taunus, in south-western France, was opened to traffic yesterday. This is another milestone in the long march towards the completion of the motorway/freeway that will someday link Toulouse and Lyon, the 2nd and 4th largest cities of France, through the difficult terrain of the Massif Central.
> 
> 
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> 
> The French government is unfortunately dithering on whether or not to build the most difficult part of the route, which lies beyond the section opened yesterday. Something as big as the Millau Viaduct would need to be built to cross the huge river canyons in that region, which means billions of €€€.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> _En attendant_ the stunning central sections of that motorway that will someday hopefully be built, here are pictures of the section opened yesterday, by Gilles Auriol from Forum Sara.
> 
> BEFORE:
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> AFTER


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## Reivajar

Will it be part of the A68? Or an upgraded N88 expressway/_route pour automobiles_?


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## Sesto Elemento

It's the continuation of the RN88.


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## Fane40

Sesto Elemento said:


> By Brisavoine today:


The most difficult part of the N88 which requires a viaduct above the Viaur river is already built since the 90 ies. It's the Tanus bridge.
The problem is the northern part of the bypass of Albi through the city.
Up to the highway A75, the ground is hilly but not very difficult to build.


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## Reivajar

And which is the project for avoiding Le-Puy? I've got some traffic jams crossing Le-Puy-en-Velay but I don't remember any working area for building a _Rocade _for the city.



Sesto Elemento said:


> It's the continuation of the RN88.


Thanks


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## Fane40

verreme said:


> It's N568 west of Martigues. Probably the longest straight of France. And also the flattest. And the one with the widest median. Very uncommon in Europe, looks totally American.


Yes, I know this road but this stretch is 20 km long maybe.
When you drive through the "Meseta", in central Spain, on the road to Granada or Albacete, it's not very funny also.


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## Fane40

Reivajar said:


> And which is the project for avoiding Le-Puy? I've got some traffic jams crossing Le-Puy-en-Velay but I don't remember any working area for building a _Rocade _for the city.
> 
> 
> Thanks


Yes, the famous traffic-jam in le Puy.
A small city with a lot of traffic lights.:nuts:
Sometimes, 30 minutes to cross the city.
The building of the bypass has began but when I read the situation about this bypass on a french forum, there are difficulties with the ground.
I cannot see the evolution when I am on the road. So, I don't know if they stopped the construction or not.


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## eomer

Reivajar said:


> Will it be part of the A68? Or an upgraded N88 expressway/_route pour automobiles_?


Should be part of A68 between Toulouse and A75 (Severac le Chateau)


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## Daviedoff

A video I've made a few weeks ago from A35/A4 trough Strasbourg:


----------



## 1772

*Any plans of a E74 tunnel between Cuneo (Turin) and Nice?*

When you look at a map, you can't help but wonder if there has ever been a plan of building a tunnel under the Alpes-Maritimes connecting the Riviera and to north Italian plains. 
A tunnel under the Monte Argentera between Nice and Cuneo would make a fast connection between Nice/Riviera/Marsielle and Turin and the rest of northern Italy. 
The E74 goes along that route but up in the mountains and isn't that fast. 
All heavy traffic today needs to follow the ligurian coast before turing north.

A tunnel between these two could also include a railway. 

Is there or has there anytime been plans on something like this?

*Edit*
Looking at it a little closer I'm thinking the road could begin at the Nice Airport, follow the A8 "La Provencale" for a bit, follow the river Var valley and then become a tunnel until it reaches Borgo San Dalmazzo and Cuneo and connect to the A33. 
The tunnel should be about 50 kilometers. 
Perhaps a little to long. Maybe the road can go up the mountains a bit before being a tunnel? Or head more east and get out at Limone Piemonte? THat would put the tunnel at 28 kilometers. 
I'm just speculating here.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Yes: https://www.google.ch/search?client...st#channel=suggest&q=mercantour+tunnel&rls=it

But it is unlikely it will be built.


----------



## 1772

Coccodrillo said:


> Yes: https://www.google.ch/search?client...st#channel=suggest&q=mercantour+tunnel&rls=it
> 
> But it is unlikely it will be built.


Interesting! But there seems to be very little information about it. Not even a map showing it's stretch.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/spip.php?page=article&id_article=37621

The south tube of the tunnel through Toulon will open to traffic on 27 February!


----------



## Blackraven

Does France offer tourist plates (like what Germany does)?

Say for example, I want to pick up the Peugeot 508 that I ordered from the Peugeot factory (in Rennes) and drive it around France......before having my car shipped to the Philippines........

Think of it like how BMW offers European Delivery service.......only this time, it's a Peugeot.....and in France

Is it possible?


----------



## MichiH

rpc08 said:


> A719 is under construction on a small stretch between Gannat and the outskirts of Vichy, passed there last Christmas and the works were visible (here on Google Maps). Additionally, the works to duplicate the 4 km stretch of D9 in Tulle are on their way - it's the remaining part of the A89 between Bordeaux and Clermont-Ferrand.


Thanks . Do you have any information about beginning and completion of the A89 section?

Does the list already contain all ongoing projects?

*D222:* Tregueux-Le Creach – Tregueux-La Croix Gibat 12 2km (? to 27th January 2014) – ? – map
*A50:* Tunnel de Toulon 23.2km (September 2007 to 18th March 2014) – ? – map
*A719:* Gannat-East – Vichy 1213.8km (August 2011 to 2015) – project – map
*A150:* Yvetot – Barentin 12 18km (March 2013 to 2015) – project – map
*A466:* Quincieux (A46) – Les Cheres (A6) 12 4km (? to 2015) – project – map
*A507:* Frais Vallon – Marseille-East (A50) 12 5.2km (1993 to 2015) – project – map
*A304:* Rocroi – Charleroi-Mezieres (A34) 12 31km (July 2011 to late 2016) – project – map
*A89:* Brive-North – Saint-Germain-les-Vergnes 21~5km (? to ?) – ? – map


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ So this gap on A89 will remain?

https://maps.google.pt/maps?saddr=A...;FcdXswId-xUYAA&mra=dme&mrsp=0&sz=13&t=m&z=15

And the one near Bordeaux?

Was the Toulon tunnel planned to be built in phases (one direction per phase) from the beginning, or was it planned to be 1+1 in the first phase, but opened as a one-way tunnel because of some new tunnel safety rules?

The one-way roads around the railway station are also curious:

https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Toulo...6-iFkGKR7JhqA3l31s53Iw&cbp=12,328.71,,0,10.11


----------



## verreme

Not a motorway, but a part of French road history: 2 stretches of former Nationale 7, once France's longest road at 1.004 kilometers, through sunny Provence.











If you want to spare A8/A7 toll and like tree-lined roads through picturesque landscapes, this is definitely worth a drive


----------



## charpentier

The two last by astey highways:


----------



## Suburbanist

*A8*

Pic by AsteyHighways, A8 in Nice in 1968


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Tunnel de Toulon*

The southern tube of the Tunnel de Toulon opened to traffic at 5.15 am this morning. Construction took 6.5 years. 

http://provence-alpes.france3.fr/20...nnel-de-toulon-ce-mercredi-l-aube-435581.html


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## Kanadzie

^^ The tunnel is thus well-named :lol:


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ Tsss...
Maybe you don't know, but there's one and only Tunnel for us froggies cheers2:



parcdesprinces said:


> Seen on the (apparently) well known Anglo-French remake of the (déjà vu) very famous Dano-Swedish TV series... :cheers::
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the "ouverture" scenes of This Franco-Brit/Anglo-French remake were really filmed inside the Eurotunnel(s) (at least according to the producers...) . :cheers:


:bowtie::bowtie::bowtie:


----------



## piotr71

*Lille-Tourcoing[F][B]*


----------



## piotr71

*Roubaix - Lille & Lille - Cassel*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N1 Réunion*

http://www.thelocal.fr/20140409/france-to-pay-16-billion-for-12km-of-road

*France's most expensive road - €1.6b for just 12km*

This project was discussed before in this thread. The current expressway is vulnerable (apparently 40 long duration road closures per year) and the detour route turns a 10 minute drive into a 50 minute drive. The only nearby detour is D41, an extremely twisty road where the longest straight section is only 250 meters long, and features dozens of hairpin turns.

The only other alternative route, which may be better suitable for trucks, is a 150 kilometer detour via N3. That turns a 15 km trip into a 150 km trip, so it's not hard to understand the importance of the N1 along the north coast of Réunion.


----------



## Sesto Elemento

The new interchange Balata in Cayenne is open:










http://www.franceguyane.fr/actualit...ata-ouvert-et-inaugure-aujourd-hui-194558.php


----------



## piotr71

*D942*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Sesto Elemento said:


> The new interchange Balata in Cayenne is open:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.franceguyane.fr/actualit...ata-ouvert-et-inaugure-aujourd-hui-194558.php


It seems that this is the first interchange in French Guyana.


----------



## verreme

Avignon must be the city with most grade-separated interchanges located closest to a medieval wall:










A video of this peculiar area, featuring the funky N580 interchange:


----------



## Sesto Elemento

Balata:










Et une vidéo de l'inauguration : http://guyane.la1ere.fr/2014/04/16/l-echangeur-de-balata-ca-roule-143719.html


----------



## verreme

Driving former Route Nationale 9 between the Spanish border and Narbonne.

Part 1, the border - Perpignan:






Part 2. This part features the (sort of) bypass of the city, which consists on several through roads bodged up to to form a partial ringroad. There's a planned "rocade" that will bypass this mess, but so far only a tiny (2-kilometer long) part has been built.






Part 3: Perpignan - Narbonne. This is a nice drive compared to the busy, expensive A9 motorway. However, expect to cover the trip in double the time than on the motorway. They have been adding some roundabouts and banning overtaking in some stretches lately, as if they were subtly urging you to pay A9


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A75 Pézenas*

The upgrade of A75 around Pézenas will be completed on 1 July. It already was a four-lane divided controlled-access expressway, but will attain motorway status on 1 July after a € 23 million upgrade.

http://www.herault-tribune.com/index.php?p=part&action=view&Ctt_Art_Id=22603


----------



## verreme

I made a video of the unfinished/unbuilt urban expressways in Marseille:






First one is L2, an incomplete ringroad whose final section has been U/C for 20 years now. Last completion date is 2016. When opened, it should be a total relief for the congested A7/A55/A557 in the coast, and it will offer the possibility to bypass tolled Prado-Carénage tunnel.

After that one comes S8, a project to connect downtown Marseille with A52 through the mountains north of the city. In the end only a short section was built, along with the metro line that runs in the median.

Later in the video I drive Viaduc de Plombières, a 1.3-kilometer long viaduct that is part of "Rocade du Jarret", an inner-city beltway that features some expressway-like sections.

I made another one that features A557, a pretty unique one-way motorway that links A7 and A55 in the city's harbor:


----------



## Road_UK

Average speed checks has now been introduced in France. According to La Voix du Nord, a speed camera "that doesn't flash and in which you have to keep a slow pace for 3 km" has been installed on the A25 between Lille and Dunkerque. 

http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/region/a...dar-de-l-a-25-ne-flashe-pas-et-ia11b0n2230105


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm not sure how up-to-date this site is, but it claims 79 section controls are currently in use in France.

http://www.radars-troncons.fr/


----------



## Road_UK

Yes, I have seen a few of these about...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is also equipment for the canceled 'éxotaxe' tolling system on route nationales. The écotaxe will be replaced in 2015 by a HGV transit toll on 4,000 km of national and departmental roads with high truck volumes.


----------



## Road_UK

I think I may have seen some of that as well on the N13 in Normandy. I wondered what they were. Very German looking...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The red and green routes will be come tolled for vehicles over 3.5 tonnes by 1 January 2015. 










The original plan was to toll 15,000 kilometers of highways, but there was a lot of opposition to that plan, especially in Brittany.


----------



## sotonsi

The Blue is what is already tolled, isn't it?


----------



## Road_UK

I wonder what that German looking thing is doing on the N13 then...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Originally nearly all major roads were to be tolled.

OLD PLAN:








red: route nationale / autoroute
green: route départementale


----------



## Reivajar

ChrisZwolle said:


> The red and green routes will be come tolled for vehicles over 3.5 tonnes by 1 January 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The original plan was to toll 15,000 kilometers of highways, but there was a lot of opposition to that plan, especially in Brittany.


So, any heavy vehicle should pay for the whole network, except Brittany. Even getting to Paris would be tolled. But the original plan was even more restrictive... even conventional national roads...


----------



## Road_UK

I can see the A10 between Bordeaux and Poitiers getting busy again with freight traffic if the parallel N10 route is going to cost the same...


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Average speed checks has now been introduced in France. According to La Voix du Nord, a speed camera "that doesn't flash and in which you have to keep a slow pace for 3 km" has been installed on the A25 between Lille and Dunkerque.
> 
> http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/region/a...dar-de-l-a-25-ne-flashe-pas-et-ia11b0n2230105


Don't they call that the Autoroute of the Potholes anyway?


----------



## Road_UK

Not anymore. It used to be like driving on a rail track - presumably to make the Belgians feel at home - but it's all resurfaced now and done up really nicely


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ It seems like they have been using "les gardes-fous" in the median for rails, what the hell :lol:



Road_UK said:


> I wonder what that German looking thing is doing on the N13 then...


just watch your mailbox :lol: Still want to move to Frankreich?!:lol:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> I wonder what that German looking thing is doing on the N13 then...


We missed something in '44?


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> We missed something in '44?


Probably










German cemetery, sign on N13 in Normandy)


I did visit Utah Beach last week, as well as some museums. Very impressive stuff!


----------



## Road_UK

Also on N13....


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^In Gettysburg, Pennsylvania:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/24403538

I suppose because Eisenhower retired there.

I spent a summer studying in Caen, so I've been to all those spots, some more than once.


----------



## Road_UK

And some pictures I took myself during my visit to Utah Beach:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A43 Modane - Chambéry*

A video of A43 in the French Alps, from Modane (near the Fréjus Tunnel) to near Chambéry. A very nice autoroute.


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## Road_UK

It's my favourite. I drove it twice a week for a long long time. (Calais-Reims-Troyes-Dijon-Mont Blanc-Italy)


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some photos of the southernmost leg of A51, from Aix-en-Provence to Marseille. This part features some antique signage. These exits are not announced beforehand, it's just one sign at the exit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A51-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


This section opened in 1953 as a stub of Marseille's "Autoroute Nord" (currently A7). It's one of the oldest motorways of France.

I made a video of it some time ago:






Honestly speaking, one of the worst motorway drives in France . Good that you drove A43 to leave a good taste in your mouth.


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## Minato ku

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some photos of the southernmost leg of A51, from Aix-en-Provence to Marseille. This part features some antique signage. These exits are not announced beforehand, it's just one sign at the exit.
> 
> A51-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
> 
> 
> A51-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


There are also plenty of old signages like that on the A6/A7 in Lyon.



hofburg said:


> maybe they could widen the peripherique then :troll:


With the current left and green municipal government, impossible !!! They would rather propose to build parks and to transform the Peripherique into a "civilized boulevard" with bicycle paths. hno:

With a real Greater Paris autority controled by the right, maybe.
_Currently, the right-wing has the control of most suburbs, they would have the power with a Greater Paris._


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## Suburbanist

Paris is sadly dismantling several urban expressways, like the Voie Expresse on the river...


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## GROBIN

Suburbanist said:


> Paris is sadly dismantling several urban expressways, like the Voie Expresse on the river...


In France, we've got a huge load of great theorists that do completely absurd things. 
When other European countries increase speed limits on motorways, we want to decrease them. 
When other countries decided to have white lights for their cars, we decided to have yellow.
When other countries decided it would be good to have a 3rd stop (brake) light in your car, we decided to forbid it.
When other European countries do a huge work in widening their motorways, even around major cities (Germany, the Netherlands), France lives in the illusion that paralyzing the whole traffic will bring people more people to public transportation - and thus motorway project like the A15 Gennevilliers - Paris ring or A104 around Conflans-Sainte-Honorine or Achères are stopped.

Sadly, no equilibrium between public & private transportation will exist until:
1) There won't be a system similar to what I saw in Warsaw: park & ride - free parkings around train stations as long as you have a valid public transportation ticket. Unfortunately, most car parks around train/RER stations that used to be free of charge 2-5 years ago not only become paid, but very expensive.
2) The public transportation between towns in the suburbs of Paris will be so bad. For instance, between Conflans-Sainte-Honorine and Poissy you waste almost an hour (around 15-20 minutes by car)
3) Most economic centers will be in Paris or close suburbs (La Défense, Saint-Denis/Aubervilliers, Gennevilliers). This process has failed for the moment, as economic areas in the further suburbs (Cergy-Pontoise, Marne-La-Vallée) haven't managed to take so much.
IMHO, the best would be to decentralize the economy like in Germany. Nowadays, the Île-de-France region has got almost 20% of the whole country's population. Even worse! Almost 90% of its population lives on 25% of its surface!


----------



## Road_UK

^^ Glad to hear an analysis from someone who is from there and knows the area for a change. Thumbs up!


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## Kanadzie

GROBIN said:


> In France, we've got a huge load of great theorists that do completely absurd things.


Mais, c'est ca la France! Si tu veux de la logique, partez pour l'Allemagne ou les _States _:lol: Les Shadoks et les gibis


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## Suburbanist

Apparently there was a time in the 1990s when France lowered speed limit to 110, then raised it back, right?


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## GROBIN

Suburbanist said:


> Apparently there was a time in the 1990s when France lowered speed limit to 110, then raised it back, right?


I heard about such a thing, but it was much earlier.
Until the 70's oil crisis, French motorways had no speed limit. Then they introduced 140km/h in order to decrease fuel consumption.
Next, they lowered the speed limits to 110km/h (if I remember well what my father told me once) and they increased it to 130km/h. But I believe it was more in the 80s. I don't know if on this forum there are any older compatriots that can give more exact data about that because I spent most of the 80s and part of the 90s out of Europe ...

EDIT: I found this very interesting website to answer your question:
- 1973: Expressways 110km/h, Motorways 120km/h
- 1974 (March): Expressways 115Km/h, Motorways 140km/h
- 1974 (November): Expressways 110km/h, Motorways 130km/h (like now)
- 1982: Additional measure with lower limits on wet conditions: Expressways 100km/h, Motorways 110km/h. This measure also exists in Luxembourg. However, at that time speed limits were seen like advisory by people and nobody respected them - which is why they took this measure. Nowadays, I find it completetly inadapted when you've got so many speed traps in France and it only confuses people who mostly already tend to drive 110-120km/h where the speed limit is 130km/h...

I'll have to send this to my father


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## verreme

^^ We also had these fluctuations in Spain: we started with 110 and 130 in motorways, then 100 everywhere, then 90/100 and 120 -all within 15 years.

Rain speed limits look still advisory for most people. I don't think speed cameras lower their threshold when it rains.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A7 Lyon - Orange*

A timelapse video of the most notorious stretch of summer holiday motorway in Europe, the A7 through the Rhône River Valley between Lyon and Orange. It is the only motorway in Europe that has 100+ kilometer traffic jams regularly. But it was smooth sailing when I filmed it.


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## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle, which service have you used to get a LiberT tag? Did you order directly from them or used some tag rental service?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I got them through the Dutch motorist association ANWB, but the contract is with AREA.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> It is the only motorway in Europe that has 100+ kilometer traffic jams regularly. ]


Not regulary at all, only in peak periods on Black Saturday's in summer.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

These super long traffic jams on A7 occur consistently several times every summer, therefor regularly. Other 100+ kilometer traffic jams occur very rarely and incidentally, not on a regular basis.


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> These super long traffic jams on A7 occur consistently several times every summer, therefor regularly. Other 100+ kilometer traffic jams occur very rarely and incidentally, not on a regular basis.


What about traffic jams on A8 in Germany?


----------



## Road_UK

In winter regulary between Munich and Salzburg/Innsbruck. Between Munich and Stuttgart regulary all year round mainly due to road works.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> These super long traffic jams on A7 occur consistently several times every summer, therefor regularly. Other 100+ kilometer traffic jams occur very rarely and incidentally, not on a regular basis.


Yes, so regularly in summer only.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> A timelapse video of the most notorious stretch of summer holiday motorway in Europe, the A7 through the Rhône River Valley between Lyon and Orange. It is the only motorway in Europe that has 100+ kilometer traffic jams regularly. But it was smooth sailing when I filmed it.


A pain in summer, and also when there's light traffic, because it doesn't get much more boring than this. I drove all of A7 at late night this Spring and I've never wanted to kill myself so badly. 130 feels like being on a conveyor belt. I wish they let you drive a little faster, just 150 would be ideal. But talking about raising speed limits in France is like approving pedophilia -they will look at you like a heartless monster.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I drove 130 km/h most of the time and I noticed people drive faster on A7 than on other autoroutes I drove on that trip.


----------



## verreme

^^ Yes, 150 is common. And except for the Valence bypass and a short mountain pass, it's all flat and straight. However, _gendarmes_ are also very common. It's perfectly normal to drive by 2 speed traps in less than 100 kilometers.


----------



## Suburbanist

Why is A75 not tolled south of Clemont-Ferrand, except on the Millau viaduct?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

To support the economy of this formerly isolated region. 

I want to drive to the Auvergne one day. I passed on A75 several times, but the landscape west of A75 seems interesting, but apparently it's a rainy area. There are relatively high mountain passes in Cantal. The Pas de Peyrol is 1589 m high, perhaps the highest in France outside the Alps and Pyrenées.


----------



## verreme

^^ That is one of the French regions I haven't been in yet -and it looks very interesting. It's mostly known for the volcanoes:










It's indeed rainy, though weather conditions vary throughout the region -there are even ski resorts in Cantal mountains.


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## Road_UK

It's one of my favourite areas in France. And also the motorway through it is my favourite one.


----------



## GROBIN

ChrisZwolle said:


> To support the economy of this formerly isolated region.
> 
> I want to drive to the Auvergne one day. I passed on A75 several times, but the landscape west of A75 seems interesting, but apparently it's a rainy area. There are relatively high mountain passes in Cantal. The Pas de Peyrol is 1589 m high, perhaps the highest in France outside the Alps and Pyrenées.


You should try _Aligot_ when you go there ! As a big cheese lover, when I start eating this I can't stop :lol:

Btw ChrisZwolle, as you've changed the title to *"road infrastructure"*, you should change also the title in French to *"Infrastructure routière"*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N94 Pont de Savines*

Pont de Savines is a 924 meter long bridge that crosses the Lac de Serre-Ponçon, approximately 25 kilometers east of Gap. It was built in 1960, at the same time the reservoir was filled.

I took these photos in early September while driving around the reservoir (75 km, which took much more time than I anticipated, over 2.5 hours including stops).


Lac de Serre-Poncon by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N94 Pont de Savines by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N94 Pont de Savines-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N94 Pont de Savines-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A50 Marseille - Toulon*

Some photos of autoroute A50 from Marseille to Toulon.


1. A50 starts when you exit the Prado Tunnels in Marseille.

A50-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. In Marseille.

A50-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3. There is no exit 3. The exit density is not particularly high for a French urban motorway.

A50-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4. 

A50-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5. 

A50-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6. Unannounced exit with no number.

A50-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7. A501 interchange.

A50-9 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8. 

A50-12 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9. Begin toll road.

A50-13 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10. The stretch from Aubagne to La Ciotat is quite scenic.

A50-14 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11. 

A50-15 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12. The Mediterranean Sea comes into view. There are very few autoroutes in France that offer direct views of the Mediterranean Sea. 

A50-17 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13. 

A50-18 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14. Cassis.

A50-20 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15. La Ciotat & The Mediterranean

A50-22 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16. We take the fast lane.

A50-23 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17. There's continuous suburbanization from here to well past Toulon, a distance of over 50 kilometers.

A50-24 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18. St. Cyr-sur-Mer

A50-26 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19. No palm trees. Palm trees only grow directly along the coast in this part of France. Once you're a few kilometers inland, they disappear.

A50-29 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20. Signes.

A50-31 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21. Bandol.

A50-35 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22. Another toll plaza. I have a Liber-T toll tag.

A50-36 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

23. La Seyne-sur-Mer.

A50-39 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

24. 

A50-41 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

25. 

A50-42 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

26. Ollioules

A50-43 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

27. Toulon-Ouest.

A50-44 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

28. Toulon-Centre.

A50-46 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

29. 

A50-48 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

30. This tube opened to traffic on 19 March 2014. Before that the tunnel was only accessible westbound. The new tube significantly reduced traffic in central Toulon. 

A50-49 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## verreme

Nice! I moved back to Spain before seeing the eastbound tunnel  is the speed limit 50 km/h like in the westbound one?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It was limited at 70 km/h.


----------



## CNGL

verreme said:


> Nice!


No, Toulon. Nice is somewhat to the Northeast.

:troll:


----------



## Minato ku

Last Tuesday, 450 km of traffic jam were recorded in Paris Region at 8:40 am.
http://www.20minutes.fr/paris/1455863-20141007-ile-france-record-bouchon-mardi-matin


----------



## Penn's Woods

CNGL said:


> No, Toulon. Nice is somewhat to the Northeast.
> 
> :troll:


icard:


----------



## sponge_bob

Minato ku said:


> Last Tuesday, 450 km of traffic jam were recorded in Paris Region at 8:40 am.


And no plans to finish the A104 around Paris of course. The government should rename that so called infrastructure plan of theirs '*I*Mobilité 21' shouldn't they.


----------



## hofburg

I am not familiar with this plan?


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ it's the Francillienne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francilienne

FR Wikipedia better 
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francilienne


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Francilienne is often loaded with trucks. Paris lacks a decent bypass. The 'grand contournement' is way too far out to improve traffic on the busiest through routes. The ring roads closer to Paris are congested. 

It also doesn't help that most GPSs route through traffic directly across the Boulevard Périphérique (for instance Lille > Bordeaux / Toulouse).


----------



## sotonsi

Traffic heading roughly in a straight line through Paris is signed to not go round Paris. I was surprised to see 'A4 Metz-Nancy' signed via the N104, what with the E50 going to the BP and then out again.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*écotaxe*

The truck transit toll 'écotaxe' has been postponed indefinitely. They installed a lot of gantries for this new tolling system over the past 2 years or so. It was originally planned to go live on 1/1/15.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/10/france-reform-idUSL6N0S51KJ20141010


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## sponge_bob

They cannot charge that tax in Brittany it seems, some 500 year old treaty prevents the French state from levying tolls there.


----------



## Penn's Woods

sotonsi said:


> Traffic heading roughly in a straight line through Paris is signed to not go round Paris. I was surprised to see 'A4 Metz-Nancy' signed via the N104, what with the E50 going to the BP and then out again.


Actually, some maps (IGN's notably - France's equivalent of the Ordnance Survey) show the E5, E15 and E50 avoiding the Périphérique and using the Francilienne (or in the case of the E5, a messier routing along, if memory serves, the A10/N118/N286/N12/A12/A13 or something like that. The inconsistency from one map to another on how the E-routes are routed in France - not just the Paris area - is striking.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Technically, E-routes are not defined to the road level in Europe. The UNECE maps only show which cities they serve, not which roads they take to get there. So there is some freedom in signposting E-routes in cases of dense road networks. 

E5 is somewhat of a joke anyway, it runs from the Spanish border to Le Havre, via Paris. It's a detour of nearly 100 kilometers and you'll run into congestion. It makes much more sense to use A28 via Le Mans. 

But in most of Europe, people don't navigate by E-numbers, except in countries where they are the primary road numbers signposted.


----------



## sotonsi

Penn's Woods said:


> Actually, some maps (IGN's notably - France's equivalent of the Ordnance Survey) show the E5, E15 and E50 avoiding the Périphérique and using the Francilienne (or in the case of the E5, a messier routing along, if memory serves, the A10/N118/N286/N12/A12/A13 or something like that. The inconsistency from one map to another on how the E-routes are routed in France - not just the Paris area - is striking.


Indeed, and those routes are consistent with elsewhere (eg Lyon, where E roads are signed on the bypass). However signs send you through Paris, rather than around anything other than the centre.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> Technically, E-routes are not defined to the road level in Europe. The UNECE maps only show which cities they serve, not which roads they take to get there. So there is some freedom in signposting E-routes in cases of dense road networks.
> 
> E5 is somewhat of a joke anyway, it runs from the Spanish border to Le Havre, via Paris. It's a detour of nearly 100 kilometers and you'll run into congestion. It makes much more sense to use A28 via Le Mans.
> 
> But in most of Europe, people don't navigate by E-numbers, except in countries where they are the primary road numbers signposted.


The A28 is fairly new, and has made a lot of difference in c

Sorry I'll finish this later. Been driving three days in a row wih 3 hours sleep in total. I was going to explain something about the new A28 alternative via Rouen, Alencon, Le Mans and Tours en route to Bordeaux, but I need to sleep... I just came from there.


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## Bren

Paris ring, porte Maillot interchange, southwards.



CODEBARRE75011 said:


> Depuis le Concorde Lafayette, porte Maillot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boulevard_périphérique_de_Paris


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## Aokromes

I don't get why they put the marked thing there instead on top.


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## Reivajar

^^ Not too much space before the diversion, actually, no space. That's true that this way the signage is hidden from the surrounding urban space, and one of the supports is actually the side wall of the ramp, but from an utility point of view, it is not a good place for that sign.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N296 Aix-en-Provence*

The N296 is an expressway through the city of Aix-en-Provence. It connects both legs of A51 (Marseille - Gap).



N296-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N296-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N296-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N296-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N296-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N296-9 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N296-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N296-11 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*A51 Aix-en-Provence - Gap*

Some photos of A51 from Aix-en-Provence to Gap in southeastern France. It's quite a scenic route.


A51-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A51-18 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A51-28 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A51-33 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A51-38 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A51-43 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A51-49 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A51-50 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A51-52 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A51-54 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A51-57 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## Penn's Woods

^^Like upstate New York or northern New England, but without the foliage. :troll:


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## Suburbanist

Foliage in Southern France happens in late October/early November.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A7, Marseille*

Autoroute A7 into the city of Marseille. I filmed this in early September.


----------



## 1772

*Upgrading the Mont Blanc Tunnel?* 

Is there any plans on upgrading the Mont Bland Tunnel to make it a proper highway? Perhaps make room for high speed train aswell? 

It would serve the region well; making Geneva-Milano a fast trip!


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## sponge_bob

Yes, it is in the form of a Lyons Turin TGV line though.


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## 1772

sponge_bob said:


> Yes, it is in the form of a Lyons Turin TGV line though.


Ah, so only the Lyon-Turin tunnel, not Mont Blanc? 

TGV is great, but there are alot of cars and trucks passing through the Mont Blanc aswell.


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## Road_UK

Not that much. If you look at the corresponding motorways on both the French and Italian sides, it's quiet as hell. And then there's a safety issue involved as well. That Belgian lorry fire inside the tunnel years ago killing dozens of people really freaked them out...


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## ChrisZwolle

The average AADT is only 4,900 vehicles per day. There are only a few days per year of peak holiday traffic when there is congestion at the Mont Blanc Tunnel. Of course a second tube would be safer. 

The tolls in that area are very steep. The tunnel itself is of course the most expensive (over € 40 for a single trip) but the adjoining motorway segments are also one of the most expensive in both France and Italy.


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## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Not that much. If you look at the corresponding motorways on both the French and Italian sides, it's quiet as hell. And then there's a safety issue involved as well. That Belgian lorry fire inside the tunnel years ago killing dozens of people really freaked them out...


Lorry fires, Belgian or otherwise, in tunnels that kill dozens of people are apt to have that effect....


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## Road_UK

Hence the strict saftey measures in order to prevent this happening again.

This...










...claimed the lives of 39 people, so...



















These little blue lights you see below are to indicate the distance you are required to keep between you and the vehicle in front of you. These a standard in tunnels in all over France...


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## 1772

Looks great. 
But has there been any estimates on a second tube and how much it would cost?


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## sponge_bob

It is not just a second tube, there is a lot of local resistance to extra traffic on the alpine road network leading to the current single tube. Therefore the inclination is to keep the toll high at €40 per car plus and the high tolls will keep the traffic well below the 10k AADT a day that might justify the second bore. 

If they halved the toll and doubled the traffic then they would still have the same revenue as today but the pressure to spend _a lot_ of money on a second bore would be much higher. It cost €200m to fix it after the fire.

So they are kinda trapped and therefore they won't drop the toll, dammit they might even increase it above the rate of inflation.


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## 1772

I see. Thanks for the info!


----------



## GROBIN

Just back from the Paris area, where I spent almost a week with my family and friends 

The A16 stretch between the Beauvais-Nord exit and the Amblainville toll plaza has been entirely repaved & is in excellent condition.
However, there are roadworks just after the toll plaza, for a few kilometers southwards.
I had the feeling that the A15 stretch between Saint-Ouen-L'Aumône and Franconville has also been repaved.
That's for the good news the Paris area & its extension in Picardy 

However, coming from Lithuania, I had forgotten how horrible it is to drive with my nose on the speedometer all the time (especially that the car I drove had no cruise control!) and how people are agressive behind the wheel in the Paris area. 
A 55-60 year-old Arab (!) wanted to fight with me because ... I simply told him to turn on his lights ! (I was moving from a lane to another in the A14 tunnel under La Défense & I saw him only in the last moment). & I saw a couple of other situations like that: one person horning at the second very gently and the other reacting violently. I really don't miss my former life there !
Notabene - a couple of days ago, after a fight, a Mercedes driver killed on purpose a motorcyclist in the same tunnel ...
The funniest part was perhaps remembering what real traffic jams are (1 hour for a 3km stretch, 20 minutes of which stuck behind an RATP bus is - as a matter of fact - very ecological according to our great theorists)
The most horrible part was driving on the Périphérique during the night between Sunday and Monday. At 80km/h, it was very boring. At 70km/h, it becomes very dangerous. I hadn't drank anything & I was almost getting asleep - just as a couple of drivers around me not sticking to their lanes...


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## verreme

^^ And I somehow feel they'll make it 50 km/h in the next elections. And afterwards, they may even close the whole Périphérique and turn it into another beach, or a concentration camp for unwanted tourists.


----------



## GROBIN

*Écotaxe is definetly dead?*

Just another example about our French "specificity" - the protests about the Écotaxe. 
I know this had already been mentioned in this thread, and the idea was to make a similar system to - for instance - ViaToll in Poland, and ensure truck drivers will finance the local road infrastructure maintaining. However, after the protests. I am typing these words as a late reply to ChrisZwolle's post from last week.

When I was in France I heard this on TV: as our "courageous" government is looking for a way to compensate the non-functioning of the Écotaxe, they will most probably increase the diesel price (I heard on BFM TV it shall be 0,043 EUR.)
Of course, this will not ensure foreign trucks will pay for maintaining the infrastructure in France. 
However, we must all bear in mind that - as a very "ecologist" country, France keeps the diesel price very low (last week 1,23 EUR to 1,28 EUR, which is pretty much *the Lithuanian price* !!!!!). 
Meanwhile, unleaded 95 costs 1,49-1,56 EUR and LPG 0,80-0,96 EUR. Where is the coherence of all this ? ....


----------



## hofburg

my record in Paris is 1h for 200 meters  on an exit ramp from peripherique. and it was even after 9 p.m.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A9, Montpellier*

Construction on the new A9 around Montpellier was officially started today. They will construct a new alignment of A9 with a length of 25 kilometers. The project cost is € 800 million and will be completed late 2017. It will significantly relieve the A9 of traffic congestion, as traffic will be able to bypass Montpellier without having to go through toll booths - a major source of summer holiday congestion. 

The new A9 alignment is one of the largest motorway projects in France in the coming years. The old A9 will be converted to an urban expressway after the new motorway opens.

Source:
http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-se...t-lance-a-montpellier-1058852.php#xtor=CS1-33

Project website: http://www.deplacement-a9.fr/

It will be partially a 'motorway within a motorway'. About 12 km is new alignment, the rest is a doubling of the existing alignment from 6 to 12 lanes. It will also be one of the widest motorways in France.


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## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> It will significantly relieve the A9 of traffic congestion, as traffic will be able to bypass Montpellier without having to go through toll booths - a major source of summer holiday congestion.


Wouldn't something like E-ZPass express lanes be cheaper? :jk:, sort of.


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## verreme

^^ Current A9 is a 2x3 motorway that carries more than 100,000 vehicles a day. Even with no toll booths, there would still be serious problems, as the existing interchanges are badly congested. Plus, there's little space to widen the existing road in the central section. The new motorway will use a new right-of-way further East, next to a new high-speed railway.

They should also speed up the upgrades in N113 between Montpellier and Nîmes, which are continously being pushed back, and widen A9 between Montpellier and Béziers. That section is hell every Friday or Sunday in summer, and the parallel road is useless even for local traffic.

When the A9a/A9b multiplex is complete, you'll be able to drive between the Toulouse and Lyon with no need to stop at toll booths. This is 500+ kilometers.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

A9 around Montpellier is really bussy,just see the number of vehicles:


----------



## verreme

^^ I shot that video on a very quiet day. Traffic jams can be 50+ kilometers long and begin way before Montpellier.


----------



## GROBIN

End of écotaxe confirmation (article in French)



> "The government has decided to terminate the partnership agreement with Ecomouv signed on October 20th, 2011" Secretary of State for Transportation Alain Vidal announced on Thursday, Oct. 30th in the Senate . The letter of termination with the company in charge of managing the device environmental tax - buried on 9 October by the Minister of Ecology Segolene Royal - will mention "doubts" on "the validity of the original contract in the light of constitutional requirements that apply to the state where it entrusts a private people the management of some activities ", explained Alain Vidal. [...]


I am really wondering where they will get the money from and why did this government do that ... French socialists have nothing to lose in making reforms - they're bound to lose the next couple of elections anyway !


----------



## ChrisZwolle

€ 1 billion down the drain!

http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/201...rait-173-millions-d-euros-rien-qu-en-2014.php


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A52 Aix-en-Provence - Aubagne*

Some photos of A52 in southern France. It is a short 27 km motorway that links A8 with A50. It's an easy access to the Toulon area without having to go through Marseille.


A52-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A52-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A52-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A52-12 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A52-15 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A52-16 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A52-17 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A52-20 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## sponge_bob

How much compensation will the French state pay for abandoning theEcotax gantry system, some rumours say it could cost €10Bn in compensation payments.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A570 Toulon - Hyères*

Some photos of A570 eastbound from Toulon to Hyères. The motorway is lined with palm trees. :cheers:


A570-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A570-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A570-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A570-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A570-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A570-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A570-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A570-9 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Guys i have a question for you.Is A20 tolled or not ?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Oui: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A20_autoroute

EDIT: At least the southern part is.


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## GROBIN

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Guys i have a question for you.Is A20 tolled or not ?


Not entirely. At least from Vierzon to Brive-La-Gaillarde, it isn't. I always tried to take that motorway when going to Southern France.


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## Road_UK

Me too. I don't understand why the A6/A7 route remains so busy. I stopped using it since they finished the missing link to Montpellier...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N94 Embrun - Briançon*

Some photos of N94 in the Alps, from Embrun to Briançon.



N94-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N94-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N94-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N94-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N94-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N94-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


N94-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## Oostoever

GROBIN said:


> Not entirely. At least from Vierzon to Brive-La-Gaillarde, it isn't. I always tried to take that motorway when going to Southern France.


This map is outdated: the old N10 stretch between Bordeaux-Bayonne has been upgraded to A63 which is tolled now. Also some new or extended autoroutes are missing which are tolled too.


----------



## GROBIN

Oostoever said:


> This map is outdated: the old N10 stretch between Bordeaux-Bayonne has been upgraded to A63 which is tolled now. Also some new or extended autoroutes are missing which are tolled too.


I know this map is outdated, but I wasn't asked about the stretch you mentioned above.  I was asked specifically about A20 which is why I used this map. And as far as I know, some of my French friends still use that almost 300-km free stretch.
It's also a good option if you want to go to Bordeaux: you exit the A20 in Limoges and you go to Angoulême, where you catch the good old N10.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A43-N201 Chambéry*

A video of A43 and N201 through Chambéry in the French Alps.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Col du Lautaret*

Some photos of the Col du Lautaret which I took in September. Brilliant weather.


Col du Lautaret-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


Col du Lautaret-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


Col du Lautaret-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


Col du Lautaret-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


Col du Lautaret-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

La Meije (3983 m)

Col du Lautaret-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## Nexis

That A86 Duplex at the end is nuts...


----------



## Road_UK

France remains an amazing country, with amazing infrastructure.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Amazing what you can get done between strikes and vacations. THAT'S A JOKE!


----------



## Penn's Woods

Penn's Woods said:


> Amazing what you can get done between strikes and vacations. THAT'S A JOKE!


...and brilliant meals.

There. A positive stereotype to redeem myself. :angel:


----------



## Road_UK

I'm ever so proud of you, Michael. That's all from me folks, good night...


----------



## Penn's Woods

Wish I could get a steak-frites or moules marinière without going out....

I do have frozen shepherd's pie in the freezer (good place for it....) But, well, English food....


----------



## Nexis

Duplex A86 by Jean (tarkastad), on Flickr


----------



## Penn's Woods

I'm playing with a 2014 Michelin Benelux/North of France road atlas that I ordered some time ago but hadn't had a chance to look through yet...

There appears to be an autoroute under construction to connect the A34 south of Charleville-Mézières with the (future) E420 at the Belgian border.

Just a point of information. And does anyone know the number?


----------



## MichiH

Penn's Woods said:


> And does anyone know the number?


A304

http://www.champagne-ardenne.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/projet-de-l-autoroute-a34-r35.html


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

edit


----------



## Road_UK

That very same video has been posted by Nexis about 8 or 9 posts above yours on this same page.


----------



## javimix19

Seeing Grobin map the best region to drive is Bretagne. All motorways have no tolls. 

Well, perhaps France should have more free toll motorways, but in last years more tolls have added. It is a expensive country to drive.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A43, Lyon*

A video of A43 into Lyon. The motorway is quite spacious.


----------



## GROBIN

javimix19 said:


> Seeing Grobin map the best region to drive is Bretagne. All motorways have no tolls.
> 
> Well, perhaps France should have more free toll motorways, but in last years more tolls have added. It is a expensive country to drive.


Between those tolls, all the radars everywhere and all the parking problems, yes - it is very expensive.

About Brittany: it is due to historical reasons that there are no tolls in that region.
However, I wouldn't say it's a nice region to drive. Each new radar is tested there before anywhere in France. It is probably the region in France with most radar controls. So don't forget to keep your nose into your speedometer


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> A video of N113 through Arles in southern France. It connects both ends of A54. N113 is a four lane expressway. It is noticeably busier than A54. There are plans to bypass Arles farther to the south. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MysizCESuhg">YouTube Link</a>


is there some particular reason why that part was never called A54? It has all motorway standards afaik.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A54 Arles - Salon*

Part three of A54-N113 from Nîmes to Salon (A9 to A7). The eastern leg of A54 from St-Martin-de-Crau to A7 at Salon-de-Provence.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

x-type said:


> is there some particular reason why that part was never called A54? It has all motorway standards afaik.


Because it's local road if you know what i mean.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A75, Viaduc de Millau*

The Viaduc de Millau was inaugurated exactly 10 years ago today. (actual traffic opening was 16 December 2004).


Viaduc de Millau by Manu78, on Flickr


----------



## Suburbanist

I wonder how much Millau (town) has changed after it lost through traffic.

I also wonder how many cm have the pillars subsided ever since.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Suburbanist said:


> I wonder how much Millau (town) has changed after it lost through traffic.


Not so long time i watched a documentary movie about that bridge and i think that Millau had frequent traffic jams,so that means that Millau lost lot of traffic.


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> I wonder how much Millau (town) has changed after it lost through traffic.
> 
> I also wonder how many cm have the pillars subsided ever since.


I used to sit in traffic at Millau all the time before that bridge was opened. It's not just going through the town, but also crossing that valley through mountain roads that created long tailbacks. Now of course it's all over, and because of the free flow there is very little traffic crossing that bridge.


----------



## Road_UK

Just changed my coverphoto on Facebook:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A719 Gannat - Vichy will open to traffic on 12 January 2015.

http://www.lamontagne.fr/auvergne/2...at-ouvrira-le-12-janvier-a-midi_11269358.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A8 Aix-en-Provence*

Some photos of A8 in the Aix-en-Provence region. I photographed the entire length of A8 to the Italian border in September, but it's a bit too much to edit and post in one time.

1. The nicely situated A7-A8 interchange.

A8-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. Nice is still 190 kilometers away

A8-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3. The TGV viaduct west of Aix.

A8-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4. The A8/A51 interchange is incomplete, you cannot access A51 in either direction from the west, so you'll have to go through Aix.

A8-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5. Exit 30a and 30b end at the same roundabout. It's kind of like a Canadian parclo.

A8-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6. 

A8-9 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7. The Dutch are everywhere.

A8-11 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8. The last exit before the tolls. The Montagne Sainte-Victoire in the background, which is very famous through paintings by Cézanne in the 1800s. 

A8-13 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9. Trets.

A8-17 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10. The toll plaza is located just before the A52 interchange.

A8-20 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11. The A52 interchange.

A8-23 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## verreme

Too bad you didn't photograph this viaduct -it's undoubtedly the best sight along A8 in Aix. There's a cool tunnel, too.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A8 Fréjus - Cannes*

A video of A8 through the Esterel Mountains, between Fréjus and Cannes. This is where I got my € 45 speeding ticket for driving 111 in a 110 zone.


----------



## javimix19

Last week went to Baiona (Bayonne) from San Sebastian and I drove on A-63. :nuts: I know works are to improve motorway to three lanes per direction but with the traffic and with thousand of trucks I felt some fear. Lanes are very narrow, I passed the car on some centimeters of distance of the trucks. And now in winter at 6 o'clock is dark.

I read in signals that works will last until 2017. (Widening of third lane from Handaye -spanish frontier- to Bayonne)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A8 Monaco*

A video of autoroute A8 from Ventimiglia in Italy to Nice in France. A very Nice toll road!


----------



## x-type

wonderful video, wonderful road! never boring driving there.

why is there solid right line around La Turbie peage (video cca 4:20)?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*ecotaxe*

The late canceling of the 'ecotaxe' toll on trucks by the Hollande government will cost the taxpayer € 800 million in compensation to operator Écomouv'. The French government will pay € 403 million in direct compensation and € 40 million annually over the next 10 years. 

They could have build 100 kilometers of new expressway for that kind of money.


----------



## verreme

^^ Looks like Écomouv' is the only winner here. I wonder who they are, but it's easy to guess.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It is controlled for 70% by Italian Atlantia: http://www.atlantia.it/en/


----------



## Coccodrillo

French truck drivers protested a lot against that tax. Basically, to save their interest they made other French waste money. Not really nice...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ The Hollande government should have thought of that earlier, especially in light of the original proposal which was downscaled substantially after heavy criticism. (they wanted to tax 15,000 km of roads initially).


----------



## Penn's Woods

What's the background on this? Just out of curiosity.


----------



## verreme

Coccodrillo said:


> French truck drivers protested a lot against that tax. Basically, to save their interest they made other French waste money. Not really nice...


These people would have all gone bust if this tax had been implemented. It's not that they were selfish, they were just fighting to survive.

Plus, "another" waste of money? France spends money very sensibly when it comes to roads. Too sensibly, in my opinion, as they are constantly downscaling new road projects due to cost.



Penn's Woods said:


> What's the background on this? Just out of curiosity.


The French government wanted to toll almost every expressway and major road for heavy vehicles. They installed all the electronic-tolling gizmos throughout the whole country, and then truck drivers started a revolution burning them all down. It all went out of control, even for the almighty French Government, so the tax was eventually dropped.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> France spends money very sensibly when it comes to roads. Too sensibly, in my opinion, as they are constantly downscaling new road projects due to cost.


France has a very adequate road network. There is almost no structural, daily congestion outside the most populous urban areas. Of course some more expressways and motorways would be nice, but France has a very extensive network already, with nearly 15,000 kilometers of autoroute & voie expresse.

Although French autoroutes are mostly tolled with quite high tolls, they are generally of impeccable quality and there are far fewer traffic-disrupting road works. I drove over 2,000 kilometers of French autoroute this summer and encountered only two minor road works (no congestion). Compare this to Germany where there were roadworks every 35 kilometers on average (366 Baustellen on the Autobahn).


----------



## Coccodrillo

verreme said:


> These people would have all gone bust if this tax had been implemented. It's not that they were selfish, they were just fighting to survive.


In theory transport companies could turn their increased costs on customers, couldn't they?

Or, as alternative, the French government could have reduced other taxes on trucks.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

ChrisZwolle said:


> Although French autoroutes are mostly tolled with quite high tolls, they are generally of impeccable quality and there are far fewer traffic-disrupting road works. I drove over 2,000 kilometers of French autoroute this summer and encountered only two minor road works (no congestion). Compare this to Germany where there were roadworks every 35 kilometers on average (366 Baustellen on the Autobahn).


You know that France build most of it's network in 90's ,while Germany in those times had most of it's todays network .
So, never motorways=less roadworks.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> France has a very adequate road network. There is almost no structural, daily congestion outside the most populous urban areas. Of course some more expressways and motorways would be nice, but France has a very extensive network already, with nearly 15,000 kilometers of autoroute & voie expresse.
> 
> Although French autoroutes are mostly tolled with quite high tolls, they are generally of impeccable quality and there are far fewer traffic-disrupting road works. I drove over 2,000 kilometers of French autoroute this summer and encountered only two minor road works (no congestion). Compare this to Germany where there were roadworks every 35 kilometers on average (366 Baustellen on the Autobahn).


The road network in France is fine for long-distance traffic, but shorter trips in large urban areas can be a lot more difficult than in other countries. For example, the big metro area of Marseille and Aix-en-Provence has one of the worst expressway networks in Western Europe. The existing motorways lack capacity (they were built in the early 1970s and have not been expanded since), and there are several two-lane roads handling a daily average of more than 30,000 vehicles per day. Plus, the proposed improvements are constantly being downgraded, such as the D6-A8 connecting road in La Barque -it was first proposed as a motorway, and now it's been approved as a two-lane road with roundabouts. For 30,000 vehicles per day. The A9 corridor between Montpellier and Nîmes is another example. There's heavy congestion on weekends, so they planned to duplicate N113 all the way. But now it seems they are only going to build some at-grade bypasses, and not before 2020. There's a similar situation in Côte d'Azur between Hyères and Saint-Tropez. It's one of the most popular summer holiday destinations in France, yet there's no expressway (not even two-lane) reaching it. The result is 1960s roads handling 2015 traffic -a complete mess.

Driving in France is usually fine if you are a tourist and use long-distance, tolled _autoroutes_. They're flawless. But for commuters, especially in Southern France, the situation is far worse. Add the constant railway strikes and the occasional taxi driver roadblocks and you have the ultimate commuter hell.



Coccodrillo said:


> In theory transport companies could turn their increased costs on customers, couldn't they?
> 
> Or, as alternative, the French government could have reduced other taxes on trucks.


The aim of this tax was to get more money, so I doubt they ever considered reducing other taxes. Higher costs would have meant more expensive goods, but in the end the ones that would suffer the most were truck drivers.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> You know that France build most of it's network in 90's


:nuts:


----------



## GROBIN

ChrisZwolle said:


> France has a very adequate road network. There is almost no structural, daily congestion outside the most populous urban areas. Of course some more expressways and motorways would be nice, but France has a very extensive network already, with nearly 15,000 kilometers of autoroute & voie expresse.
> 
> Although French autoroutes are mostly tolled with quite high tolls, they are generally of impeccable quality and there are far fewer traffic-disrupting road works. I drove over 2,000 kilometers of French autoroute this summer and encountered only two minor road works (no congestion). Compare this to Germany where there were roadworks every 35 kilometers on average (366 Baustellen on the Autobahn).


ChrisZwolle, I know how much you love French autoroutes. You love them certainly more than some Frenchies like me  However, it would be appalling if with such expensive tolls our motorways would be in a bad shape / with constant roadworks.
Moreover, in big agglomerations the network is pretty bad. Very few upgrades have been made since the end of the 1980s in such areas like Paris's, Marseilles', Nice's ... Look in the meantime what has been done in Germany or even in your own country - the Netherlands - to prevent congestion.
Everyone has got the right to his/her own opinion. However, I prefer driving 1000km on German Autobahns than 200km on expensive, fully radarized French autoroutes.
These last years I spent in France, I tried to avoid motorways and to drive on secondary roads. Very lovely experiences


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I did note the situation is not as good in the 'most populous urban areas'  Paris is much better than London though, where it takes twice as much time to get from A to B in the metro area.

But once you're outside the largest urban areas, traveling is very smooth and convenient in France. I only hope they change to all-electronic tolling at some point. That would reduce the summer congestion significantly at some stretches. 

There is not a whole lot of road news coming from the Hollande government. They issued only one DUP in 2014, which means national road construction will dry up in the next couple of years.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> But once you're outside the largest urban areas, traveling is very smooth and convenient in France.


How much of that can be attributed to the relatively low population density (low compared to Germany or the Benelux, for example)?


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> But once you're outside the largest urban areas, traveling is very smooth and convenient in France. I only hope they change to all-electronic tolling at some point. That would reduce the summer congestion significantly at some stretches.


That is not true -at least in Southern France. A7 and A9 (especially the latter) can be a pain on weekends way outside large urban areas. I drove between Barcelona and Marseille at least once a month last year and half an hour of stop-and-go traffic was guaranteed between Sète and Nîmes.

Central France is more sparsely populated; I reckon that driving there is fantastic (it would be better with no _gendarmes_). As for the North, I've never driven there, but I guess it's okay as long as Parisiens are not leaving the city for a long weekend.


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## ChrisZwolle

That's why A9 is being widened and realigned around Montpellier.


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## Suburbanist

The major missing link on French network is a highway between Tolouse and Lyon.


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## ChrisZwolle

They are slowly upgrading that route to an expressway. 

I haven't heard much about the new autoroutes parallel to A47 and A7 that were planned a couple of years ago. 

I've driven the A47 last year, it is quite curvy and substandard. I also took photos of it, I should dive into that.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> As for the North, I've never driven there, but I guess it's okay as long as Parisiens are not leaving the city for a long weekend.


Some 10 years ago the quality of non-tolled motorways in the north and northeast was quite bad, but they have improved since. I remember stopping along A35 north of Strasbourg and was surprised to see most of the parking area was just gravel. 

Long weekends in the north are mostly problematic if Parisiens leave for the coast of Normandy. A13 is notorious for backups. Then you'll have some super commuters that drive from the northeast to Paris. A4 has a fairly large number of toll booths as it is partially an open system.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

I think that A4 in France has a lot of trafic.Do you guys know AADT for sections which are west from Paris?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A50 Cassis - Toulon*

A drive across A50 from Cassis to Toulon. They widened it to six lanes in 2012.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's why A9 is being widened and realigned around Montpellier.


I was not talking about Montpellier. There's often congestion until Nîmes. As I said before, there are plans to bypass towns and duplicate N113, but everything is so slow that I wonder if it's just that -plans to look like they're doing something. A9 also lacks capacity between Sète and Montpellier, but nothing is even planned there.



ChrisZwolle said:


> They are slowly upgrading that route to an expressway.
> 
> I haven't heard much about the new autoroutes parallel to A47 and A7 that were planned a couple of years ago.
> 
> I've driven the A47 last year, it is quite curvy and substandard. I also took photos of it, I should dive into that.


As for N88, only a part of it is an expressway, and at the current speed of road projects in France, it's probably going to stay that way until 2030. It's a bit shocking that there's no motorway between France's 3rd and 4th biggest cities; the current route (A7+A9+A61) involves a considerable detour.


----------



## Moravian

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some 10 years ago the quality of non-tolled motorways in the north and northeast was quite bad, but they have improved since. I remember stopping along A35 north of Strasbourg and was surprised to see most of the parking area was just gravel.
> 
> Long weekends in the north are mostly problematic if Parisiens leave for the coast of Normandy. A13 is notorious for backups. Then you'll have some super commuters that drive from the northeast to Paris. A4 has a fairly large number of toll booths as it is partially an open system.


Yes, the best example of bad quality in the north was A25 motorway between Lille and Dunkerque. The surface has undergone the reconstruction. Another issue on toll-free motorways - A16 and A25 - is lack of larger rest stations. And the E40 section from Calais to Belgium is an important international route. That is the fact, A13 from BP and in the section at Versailles is a nightmare for many days. The A14 is expensive option. IMO, the tolled A4 outside Meaux , Greater Paris, seems not to be so critically busy. Probably N4 and N3 overtake some traffic....


----------



## sponge_bob

I'm not sure how much traffic wants to go as directly as possible Lyons < > Bordeaux TBH.

I'd say priorities in France are around Marseilles, Lyons and most especially Paris where the A104 ( and the rest of the rings) is congested to hell as well as incomplete... and in the Provence - Italy area including a proper motorway connection from Geneva/Grenoble to the coast somewhere around Toulon or Nice.

The rest of the French motorway network is very high quality and there are no missing sections. I only hate driving in and near Paris me.


----------



## sotonsi

Suburbanist said:


> The major missing link on French network is a highway between Tolouse and Lyon.


Obviously the Massive Centrale (sic) gets in the way a bit.

I'm really surprised that it isn't an E road - France planned ahead and gave lots of routes that would be upgraded E numbers, including things like Niort-La Rochelle that hasn't happened yet, but didn't link two of it's biggest cities with an E road.

It's also (OK this map has autoroute as well) the most blatant gap in the E road network in France with such a long way between roughly east-west routes.


----------



## Road_UK

Moravian said:


> - A16 and A25 - is lack of larger rest stations. And the E40 section from Calais to Belgium is an important international route. .


There is a reason for this:

Traffic heading from Calais to Belgium are most likely to fill up in Belgium anyway. It's only 20 minutes over the road, and there are two major service areas close after each other (Texaco and Total). On the border itself we've got the town of Adinkerke which is a favourite stopover for lorries filling up cheap and the purchase possibilities of large quantities of tobacco. Lorry parking with facilities are widely available off the A16 in Calais, Marck and Dunkerque. 

Travelling from Belgium towards Calais it's a different story. There is one BP petrol station on the A16 going southbound and a number of lay-by's along the route which are actually closed. It's a safety issue: the number of wannabe immigrants hanging around on these lay-by's trying to hide inside or even under lorries in order to try and get into the UK illegally has proven to be a bit too much of a nuisance to keep these area's operational. And even though it's a very import route for international traffic, this particular stretch of the A16 is still mostly used by local French commuters.


----------



## Road_UK

French motorway operator VINCI doing their bit to pay tribute to the victims of the Charlie Hebdo massacre:



















They are all activated between 12 noon and 1pm.


----------



## Moravian

Road_UK said:


> There is a reason for this:
> 
> Traffic heading from Calais to Belgium are most likely to fill up in Belgium anyway. It's only 20 minutes over the road, and there are two major service areas close after each other (Texaco and Total). On the border itself we've got the town of Adinkerke which is a favourite stopover for lorries filling up cheap and the purchase possibilities of large quantities of tobacco. Lorry parking with facilities are widely available off the A16 in Calais, Marck and Dunkerque.
> 
> Travelling from Belgium towards Calais it's a different story. There is one BP petrol station on the A16 going southbo und and a number of lay-by's along the route which are actually closed. It's a safety issue: the number of wannabe immigrants hanging around on these lay-by's trying to hide inside or even under lorries in order to try and get into the UK illegally has proven to be a bit too much of a nuisance to keep these area's operational. And even though it's a very import route for international traffic, this particular stretch of the A16 is still mostly used by local French commuters.


Well, you are right. Immigrants to UK are the issue. Regarding the motorway section from last petrol station in Belgium on A18.be. Anyway, the smaller parking place directly at the border on French side is usually overcrowded by lorries. Is the gap concerning petrol prices long-term and significant? I did not think that the missing infrastructure on 60kms of A16 +A25 is any crutial point, but it is remarkable characteristic. A16 there is quite fine, only the felling is that the track is a bit narrow with concrete barriers on the sides. With large lorries traffic....Yes, there is only one smaller BP petrol station in Dunkerque and Total at the gateway from Eurotunnel in Calais. Thanks for info about Adinkerke. I do not know it that it is so worthy leaving the motorway and make a stop here.......For truckers.....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A719 Gannat - Vichy*

The A719 extension from Gannat to Vichy was inaugurated yesterday. It will open to traffic on 12 January around midday. It is a 14 kilometer four-lane toll road. It includes a new toll plaza near Vichy with 3 toll gates for cash/cards and 1 toll gate for télépéage each way. 

The construction cost was € 100 million (€ 7.1 million per kilometer). It is operated by APRR (Autoroutes Paris-Rhin-Rhône). The toll on the new stretch is € 1 for passenger cars and € 3.30 for trucks. This is relatively low compared to some other recent autoroutes (€ 0.07 per km).


----------



## Fane40

javimix19 said:


> Last week went to Baiona (Bayonne) from San Sebastian and I drove on A-63. :nuts: I know works are to improve motorway to three lanes per direction but with the traffic and with thousand of trucks I felt some fear. Lanes are very narrow, I passed the car on some centimeters of distance of the trucks. And now in winter at 6 o'clock is dark.
> 
> I read in signals that works will last until 2017. (Widening of third lane from Handaye -spanish frontier- to Bayonne)


Right, but you easily overtake a truck with a car.
I do that with my van (merco sprinter) without any problem since roadworks began 4-5 years ago between Biarritz and Bordeaux.
But I recognize this is not easy when it's raining or during the night.
I broke my left mirror after the Biarritz tollgate when I overtake a truck during roadworks to build the third lane two years ago.
A roadsign was leaning on my lane, I have not been able to avoid it. It was the evening.
It cost me around 130 € !


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## verreme

^^ French lanes, even during roadworks, are fine. I've never had any issue when overtaking trucks in reduced-width lanes in France, whilst in Germany I didn't dare to fit my Renault Laguna (a car with particularly wide mirrors) between a truck and a temporary barrier.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

I know that in Czech Republic you can't overtake trucks in reduced-width lanes ,because it's too narrow.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

*[F] D914 - Port-Vendres - Argelès-sur-Mer (D618)*





Nice video by verreme


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## ChrisZwolle

*A150 Barentin - Yvetot*

The A150 between Barentin and Yvetot (northwest of Rouen) will open on 29 January.

http://www.paris-normandie.fr/detail_article/articles/2303815/l-a150-inauguree-le-29-janvier

It will be a quite expensive toll road at € 3.20 for 18 km (€ 0.18 per km)

website: http://www.a150-albea.fr/


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## Penn's Woods

^^That is expensive, but if you look at it as finishing the Rouen-Le Havre autoroute connection (forgetting about the existing one that involves crossing the Seine twice and paying a bridge toll)....


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## ChrisZwolle

Taking A151 + A29 is actually cheaper in tolls than taking direct route A150 

The toll on A29 is only € 1.30


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## Penn's Woods

So you're paying extra for the convenience of a shorter route. :dunno:

Basically, France is just a country of M6Tolls, it seems.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

*Short Autoroute Compilation*





by Verreme


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## GROBIN

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A150 between Barentin and Yvetot (northwest of Rouen) will open on 29 January.
> 
> http://www.paris-normandie.fr/detail_article/articles/2303815/l-a150-inauguree-le-29-janvier
> 
> It will be a quite expensive toll road at € 3.20 for 18 km (€ 0.18 per km)
> 
> website: http://www.a150-albea.fr/


A150, until the 1st decade of the current century was called ... A15! Exactly like the Gennevilliers (A86) - Cergy (N14) section. It was supposed to be the same path and, if I'm not mistaken, was supposed to go as far as Dieppe - the closest city to Paris on the sea. However, something changed throughout the years... hno:

EDIT: A15 used to be the current A15, the current A150 and the current A131


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## verreme

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> by Verreme


I made this video to show some of the French motorway numbering oddities. It's a bit weird that there are some _autoroutes_ that are not signed at all -sometimes the only visible indication of them having a number is a lonely kilometer post. A55xA7 interchange is particularly impressive: it contains _two_ more motorways within itself.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Some of those motorways are just intersections and some of them i think not longer then 1 km.


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## ChrisZwolle

Kerguelen


----------



## Kanadzie

hahaha, Interstate-shield colours on sign 66 :lmao:


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## Xpressway

Suburbanist said:


> The major missing link on French network is a highway between Tolouse and Lyon.


Any plans to close this gap?


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Xpressway said:


> Any plans to close this gap?


They are slowly building expressway.


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## Xpressway

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> They are slowly building expressway.


Thank you! What do you mean slowly? They have a complete plan and is taking a while to build or they have many different plans?


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Some sections are U/C i think ,while some sections are planed .


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## ChrisZwolle

The A150 Barentin - Yvetot was inaugurated today. It will open to traffic on 2 February.

http://www.normandie-actu.fr/le-tro...les-alix-ouvrira-lundi-2-fevrier-2015_111469/


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## ChrisZwolle

*A7 Lançon - Marseille*

Another video of A7, from Lançon to Marseille. The A7-A8 interchange is situated quite nicely. This stretch of autoroute opened in 1969-1970 and still features some of the original signage.


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## verreme

The A7/A8 interchange has a segregated northbound truck ramp (it can be used by cars as well).


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## ChrisZwolle

Astey Highways noted that in the comments as well. I didn't notice it, because I only drove north to south and north to east through the interchange. Apparently it's the only such truck bypass in France.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A570 Hyères - Toulon*

A few photos of A570 from Hyères to Toulon. I took them in September 2014. The motorway has nice palm trees and views on the mountains near Toulon.

1.

A570-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. 

A570-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3. 

A570-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4. 

A570-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5. 

A570-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6. 

A570-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7. 

A570-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

A570-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## verreme

^^ Apparently they did want to extend A570 until East of Hyères following D98, but somehow this is not going to happen. The bypass of La Londe-les Maures has a space reservation for a second carriageway throughout all its length, but some of it has already been turned to a cycle path. It's a road that works well in winter (there's a green wave that allows you to cross Hyères and its 20-something traffic lights without stopping), but it's badly congested in summer. There are no motorways close to the coast between Hyères and Fréjus, and roads are narrow and winding. Reaching Saint-Tropez from the West is particularly rough because the town is in the middle of this no-motorway zone, and the only roads going there are D98 and D559. Which are 1960s roads (narrow, steep, no passing lanes, etc) coping with 2010s traffic.

France had great plans for that region but it has turned out to be the worst of them all when it comes to road transport, and transport in general. Even the TGV goes through Corniche de l'Estérel and the old railway. And traffic along the coast in summer is basically stationary.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, I was looking for campsites near St. Tropez and reviews all commented on how bad the traffic was in July / August. It could take half an hour to cover a few kilometers to the mall, according to several reviews.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A450 Brignais - Lyon*

I made another video of a motorway in the Lyon area, A450 from Brignais to Lyon, including a scenic part of A7 along the Rhône River. A450 is a bit 'off the beaten path' for most tourists. It's only a suburban commuter route.


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## javimix19

Perhaps the most important gap of France motorways is the gap between Tolouse and Lyon but seeing the map, there are a lot of gaps unfinished. For example:

- In Bretagne N164 between Loudeac and Pleyben.

- Also in Bretagne D768 and D700 between Guenin and Saint-Brieuc.

- A77 between Moulins and Saint Pierra Le Moutier.


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## ChrisZwolle

Opening of A150 northwest of Rouen has been postponed to early next week (before or at 11 February)

http://www.normandie-actu.fr/en-sei...ent-«-dici-mercredi-11-fevrier-2015-»_112687/


----------



## Bren

^^



Bren said:


> Inauguration A150
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.a150-albea.fr
> 
> http://www.lemoniteur.fr/147-transport-et-infrastructures/article/actualite/27346788-inauguration-de-l-a150-autoroute-jackpot-pour-l-etat


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## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> Opening of A150 northwest of Rouen has been postponed to early next week (before or at 11 February)
> 
> http://www.normandie-actu.fr/en-sei...ent-«-dici-mercredi-11-fevrier-2015-»_112687/


It is now planned to open tomorrow, 9 February

http://france3-regions.francetvinfo...uveau-troncon-de-l-autoroute-a150-651139.html

One source even says it will open at 2 p.m.

http://www.normandie-actu.fr/en-seine-maritime-la150-ouvrira-lundi-9-fevrier-2015-a-14h_112687/


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## ChrisZwolle

*A51 Sisteron - Gap*

A video I made of A51 between Sisteron and Gap. It was my first time driving there, but I fell in love with it. Very light traffic and great wide open landscapes.


----------



## Nikolaj

ChrisZwolle said:


> I made another video of a motorway in the Lyon area, A450 from Brignais to Lyon, including a scenic part of A7 along the Rhône River. A450 is a bit 'off the beaten path' for most tourists. It's only a suburban commuter route.


Isn't that the motorway that is planned to be prolonged (as A45) until St. Etienne?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, there were plans, but the current government is not really pro-roads. Although they did open several motorways in the past 2 years, these were the result of earlier policy. The Hollande government issued only one DUP in 2014. 

On the other hand it was announced that the A89-A6 link near Lyon will get a DUP soon and construction could begin even this year.


----------



## Suburbanist

The Alps are stunning on a clear-sky midday light


----------



## -Valentino-

Why does France have such ugly text font and _italic_ on their road signs and highway overhead signs? I wish they changed them!!


----------



## Road_UK

I actually love them. And French road signage works.


----------



## CNGL

Now that I've got a road atlas of metropolitan France and the Channel Islands D), I plan to restore the former N roads. And not just the recently downgraded ones, I plan to bring back the dense N road network of the 60s :colgate:. And I will add a ton of new motorways too, like my wet dream of an A65 extension to the Spanish border.


----------



## 1772

Does anyone now where exactly this tunnel will go? 
I like the idea, it's always very tiresome when you enter and leave Monaco westward to go through Cap d'Ail. 

http://www.rivieratimes.com/index.p...nel-to-reduce-cap-dail-traffic-an-option.html



> *New tunnel to reduce Cap d’Ail traffic an option*
> 
> _Traffic jams and congestion near Cap d’Ail have long been the bane of drivers travelling between Nice and Monaco. A mini tunnel to bypass the area could provide a much-needed solution, according to the Principality’s Minister for State Michel Roger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Congestion in Cap d'Ail is becoming an increasing problem for drivers. Photo: Google Maps_
> 
> For a large portion of drivers, the A500 and the Moyenne Corniche provide the easiest way to access Monaco when approaching from Nice. As a result, the Cap d’Ail traffic lights on this route are notorious for congestion during rush hour. In an interview with the Monaco Matin, Michel Roger revealed that plans were being discussed to build a tunnel linking the end of the A500, directly with the Principality, in an attempt to ease traffic.
> 
> “This would require a partnership with the Métropole Nice Côte d’Azur,” said Roger. “Monaco could participate in the financing of the project. We have commissioned studies which are set to be discussed and I’m optimistic that it could be completed within two or three years.”
> 
> The Principality has already announced developments to help reduce traffic during rush hour. Work is underway on a tunnel connecting the boulevard Jardin Exotique with Fontvielle below and will be completed by the end of 2016, according to the Minister for State. The developments will also encompass a new subterranean car park which, when finished, will be able to hold 2,000 vehicles.
> 
> _Dominic Thurlow-Wood_


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## -Valentino-

I wish French-speaking Europe used Arret "stop" signs like in Canada.


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## Penn's Woods

^^They can't. Some treaty says stop signs have to say "stop." As if no one would know what an octagonal red sign meant no matter what word was on it.

Of course, it would open a can of worms in, say, Belgium.

(Visualizing a sign reading "Hou op!" on the top and something vandalized on the bottom....)


----------



## -Valentino-

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^They can't. Some treaty says stop signs have to say "stop." As if no one would know what an octagonal red sign meant no matter what word was on it.
> 
> Of course, it would open a can of worms in, say, Belgium.
> 
> (Visualizing a sign reading "Hou op!" on the top and something vandalized on the bottom....)


Europe mostly uses Yield signs everywhere anyway with very few stop signs unlike in North America. :cheers:


----------



## parcdesprinces

-Valentino- said:


> I wish French-speaking Europe used Arret "stop" signs like in Canada.


Well, that would be extremely weird, at least in France, since the word "stop" has entered over here the common/every day language since a very, very long time (since at least the late XVIIIth century), not to mention the French verb _"stopper"_ (literally _"to stop"_) or the expression _"auto-stop"_ (i.e. _"hitch-hiking"_), etc, etc...

BTW, the proper translation, if we had to use one, is not _"arret"_, but _"halte!"_.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ Indeed, Quebec's use of "ARRET" is non-standard and not grammatically correct anyway.


----------



## Suburbanist

-Valentino- said:


> Europe mostly uses Yield signs everywhere anyway with very few stop signs unlike in North America. :cheers:


I don't think so. There are plenty of situations where STOP is used. In some countries (Italy) more than others (France). What is not present here much is the 4-way stop.


----------



## Bren

Agreement to be reached in the coming days for network works up to 3.2 billions euros.










http://www.lemoniteur.fr/147-transport-et-infrastructures/article/actualite/27547185-plan-de-relance-autoroutier-8-200-emplois-pourraient-etre-crees-rapidement


----------



## Luki_SL

^^The A10 in Orléans between A19 and A20 interchanges is planned to be widened ?


----------



## Bren

^^ yep 2x4 lanes


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I see they are going to add shoulders to A29 west of St-Quentin.


A29-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

There are still one or two single lane bridges on A29.

A29-21 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are still one or two single lane bridges on A29.


Also on the A28 between Rouen en Le Mans. Two of them. That stretch of motorway is about 7 years old, and if it traffic stays light as it is now they'll keep it that way.


----------



## sotonsi

Is it me, or is the A714 number for two spurs of the A71 on the RCEA (E62) corridor really weird?

It would be concurrent with the A71 for longer than it is its own route. Give the planned A714 Est the number A715 or something!

And I hope the widening of the A480 would be used to renumber it A51...


----------



## MichiH

Bren said:


> Agreement to be reached in the coming days for network works up to 3.2 billions euros.
> http://www.lemoniteur.fr/147-transp...-200-emplois-pourraient-etre-crees-rapidement


What's the meaning of the colors? Blue, purple, green?


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

ChrisZwolle said:


> I see they are going to add shoulders to A29 west of St-Quentin.
> There are still one or two single lane bridges on A29.
> 
> A29-21 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


Why?
Lack of funding,low AADT,or something else ?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

To make the toll road more profitable. They saved a lot of money by not building another 465 meter long bridge across the Somme River while charging tolls as usual. The traffic volume is quite low there. According to this PDF the traffic volume on that stretch is only 6,600 vehicles per day.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's a mess in the Alps. TomTom reports a 10 hour (!) delay on A40 from Genève to Bourg-en-Bresse, and a 6.5 hour delay in the other direction. N5 and N57 are also slow. There is also a 2 hour delay in both directions on A43 between Lyon and Chambéry.


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ Well, this is the usual and annual joyful weekend of the winter school holidays with the 3 national school zones in vacation at the same time ... opcorn:


----------



## Wolfgang16

MichiH said:


> ...
> hopes
> ...
> http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Route_nationale_française_141#Futur
> 
> To be completed by 2017.


Well, therefore I cited


> On espère pouvoir rouler sur le contournement de Fléac à deux fois deux voies, entre La Vigerie et Villesèche, qui est fixé à la fin 2016


The sentence starts with "espère" and ends with "fixé". I am not really able to understand that. May be somebody French speaking can help. :nuts:

Its also written:


> Ils attendent avec impatience le contournement de leur commune, annoncé pour *fin 2016*.


and


> Depuis la mi-septembre et une rencontre en préfecture obtenue en partenariat avec le maire Guy Etienne, ils ont appris que leur galère pourrait s’achever* fin 2016* avec l’ouverture du contournement de leur commune.


source

...



MichiH said:


> http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Route_nationale_française_10#Poitiers_-_Bordeaux
> 
> Works started in (early) 2014. Estimated opening in 2018.


Yes

La RN10 finie en 2017-2018
Ouverture espérée en 2018


----------



## Kanadzie

They hope to drive on it, planned for end 2016, the date is 'fixed' in the calendar but reality not always same


----------



## Wolfgang16

So that is what politician's always say? :lol:


----------



## Wolfgang16

*Motorways or expressways u/c*

*N79:* Bresnay – Chemilly 6.3km (? to fall 2015) [2nd c/w] – project – map



> Les travaux de la section Bresnay - Chemilly
> 
> Un participant a demandé les raisons de la suspension des travaux sur ce tronçon et la date de reprise de ceux-ci.
> 
> La DREAL a précisé que l’arrêt du chantier intervenu l'été dernier était dû à des difficultés dans la mise en œuvre du marché public: les études réalisées par l'entreprise ne garantissaient pas la fiabilité technique de la future chaussée. Les travaux reprendront au printemps aprés la finalisation des études techniques pour une mise en service à l’automne 2015.


source

Google translates this to:



> The work of the section Bresnay - Chemilly
> 
> One participant questioned the reasons for the suspension of work on this section and the date of resumption of these.
> 
> The DREAL said the shutdown occurred yard last summer was due to difficulties in the implementation of public market studies conducted by the company does not guarantee the technical reliability of the future roadway. Work will resume in the spring after the completion of technical studies for commissioning in fall 2015.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A52 Aubagne - Aix-en-Provence*

A new video, the entire length of A52 from Aubagne to Aix-en-Provence. The video starts at A50 near Cassis and ends at A8 near Aix.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A8 Nice - Ventimiglia*

I had some footage of A8 left. The video starts at the western side of Nice and continues into Italy, to Ventimiglia.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The motorway crosses the border in a 400 m tunnel, however curiously each country shows only the length of the tunnel located on its territory, not the total length :nuts:

Italian side: http://goo.gl/maps/dFSaI

French side: http://goo.gl/maps/2G4ZM


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The missing link between A6 and A89 north of Lyon has been approved (DUP) and construction will commence soon. It is planned to open late 2017, and will be toll-free.

http://www.lemoniteur.fr/article/la...-de-lyon-declaree-d-utilite-publique-28230133


----------



## hofburg

90 limit is temporary because of traffic or permanent? Italian side is mostly 110 and 130, only some short sections near Genova eastbound are 80.


----------



## CNGL

Coccodrillo said:


> The motorway crosses the border in a 400 m tunnel, however curiously each country shows only the length of the tunnel located on its territory, not the total length :nuts:
> 
> Italian side: http://goo.gl/maps/dFSaI
> 
> French side: http://goo.gl/maps/2G4ZM


Meanwhile in the Aragnouet-Bielsa tunnel signs show the total lenght of the tunnel, and not just the lenght in each country, along with other facts.
French side
Spanish side

Edit: I found Italian side has been changed and now shows the total lenght (both Italian and French parts, and not just Italian part). Pause at 1:41 in this Chris' video:


----------



## CNGL

I was in France today . I like how the old, hyperdense national road system still lives in the departamental road numbering, thus allowing some easy navigation thru the secondary roads (Curse you, Mayenne!). I visited Pau and then Lourdes, we were planning to go on RD 938 and RD 937 (former RN 637 and a bypass to a section of it), but we messed up in the Pau area and ended taking RD 817 (RN 117) to RD 940 (RN 640) instead.


----------



## verreme

Navigating the current French RD numbering system feels like a post-apocalyptic dystopia -everything is leftovers of a good, sane system, and remains have been savaged by locals. I agree that the old RN network was a bit too dense, but now it's the other way round.


----------



## Parikaa

CNGL said:


> I was in France today . I like how the old, hyperdense national road system still lives in the departamental road numbering, thus allowing some easy navigation thru the secondary roads (Curse you, Mayenne!). I visited Pau and then Lourdes, we were planning to go on RD 938 and RD 937 (former RN 637 and a bypass to a section of it), but we messed up in the Pau area and ended taking RD 817 (RN 117) to RD 940 (RN 640) instead.


When you are into the center of Pau, you have to follow "Tarbes" or "Toulouse" (it's the same direction) signs to join D817. When you meed the "Rocade" you have to use her and follow "Lourdes - par Bétharram", and them you can join D938 to go to Lourdes. If you follow "Lourdes" (only) signs, you have to use RN 117 as you said.


----------



## CNGL

Actually we took a wrong turn and we got lost in the Eastern suburbs, but somehow we managed to hit D817 by the _Rocade_ and followed the Lourdes signs. Only after we turned onto D940 in Soumoulou I realized that road wasn't the one passing by the Betharram caves (which I visited a few years ago).


----------



## MrAkumana

hofburg said:


> 90 limit is temporary because of traffic or permanent? Italian side is mostly 110 and 130, only some short sections near Genova eastbound are 80.


I drive there quite often: Nice - Ventimiglia has some sections with a 90 km/h speed limit and some with a 110 km/h speed limit. But sometimes they put 90 km/h all the way due to traffic. The main problem with this french motorway is that it is the key conection for long distance traffic between Spain-France-Italy but also serves as a beltway for the Cannes-Nice-Monaco metro area.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*French government and toll-road operators sign motorway deal*

The pact would notably see concession contracts extended for two years on average under a 3.2 billion euro ($3.43 billion) motorway upgrade package and no toll hike this year.

The toll freeze would not be made up for in 2016 but spread over the coming years, Macron told the French Public Works Federation in a speech.​
http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/04/09/france-motorways-deal-idINWEB00RXG20150409

Not bad. The tolls in France are getting too much of a burden. Some new toll roads charge over € 0.15 per kilometer, it used to be around € 0.08 - 0.10 per km. 

The toll bill is becoming as high as the fuel bill, with a return trip from Paris to Bordeaux costing € 110 in tolls if you follow A10.


----------



## Minato ku

MichiH said:


> It seems to be delayed to Late 2017, see _wikisara_.
> 
> On the other hand, the 1st section is announced to be opened in 2015 (source)!?
> 
> In addition, I've made some minor modifications, e.g. section boundaries west to east or Albi bypass opened in several phases (source).
> 
> Here's my entire preliminary French list (since 1st January 2014):
> 
> *D222:* Tregueux-Le Creach – Tregueux-La Croix Gibat 2km (? to 27th January 2014) – project – map
> *A50:* Tunnel de Toulon 3.2km (September 2007 to 19th March 2014) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
> *N7:* Saint-Prix – Saint-Martin-Estreaux 9.5km (2007 to 19th March 2014) – ? – map
> *N249:* Montourneau – Bressuire-West 11km (April 2012 to 3rd October 2014) – ? – map
> *N88:* Albi-Le Lude – Albi-Stadium 1.5km (? to 15th October 2014) [2nd c/w] – project – map
> *N7:* Moiry – Maison-Rouge 3.5km (? to 30th October 2014) – ? – map
> *N249:* Cholet (D160) – Cholet (A87) 3.3km (March 2011 to 4th December 2014) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
> *D924:* West of Ecouche – Argentan-West (A88) ~7km (2011 to 12th December 2014) – ? – map
> *A719:* Gannat-East – Vichy 13.8km (August 2011 to 12th January 2015) – project – map
> *A89:* Brive-North – Saint-Germain-les-Vergnes 4km (? to 7th February 2015) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
> *A150:* Yvetot – Barentin 18km (March 2013 to 9th February 2015) – project – map
> *N88:* Albi-Stadium – north of Albi-Caussels 2.3km (? to 20th February 2015) [2nd c/w] – project – map
> *N88:* La Baraque St-Jean – La Mothe 13.7km (? to April 2015) – project – map
> *A466:* Quincieux (A46) – Les Cheres (A6) 4km (? to September 2015) – project – map
> *A507:* Frais Vallon – Marseille-East (A50) 5.2km (1993 to 2016) – project – map
> *A304:* Rocroi – Charleroi-Mezieres (A34) 31km (July 2011 to Late 2016) – project – map
> *N27:* Arques-la-Bataille – Manehouville 7.7km (July 2012 to Late 2016) – ? – map
> *D222:* Tregueux-La Croix Gibat – Tregueux-Perray (N12) 2.5km (? to Late 2016) – project – map
> *A9:* Saint-Jean-de-Vedas – Saint Aunes ~12km (October 2014 to Late 2017) – project – map
> *N88:* Malpas – Brive-Charensac-Ouest 8.7km (Spring 2010 to Late 2017) – project – map
> *N88:* La Mothe – Les Molinieres 14.3km (September 2014 to 2018) – project – map
> 
> _The list is incomplete. Please help to complete!_


Don't forget the new Route du Litteral in Reunion island
http://www.planete-tp.com/nouvelle-route-du-littoral-a-l-ile-de-la-reunion-a3062.html


----------



## MichiH

Minato ku said:


> Don't forget the new Route du Litteral in Reunion island
> http://www.planete-tp.com/nouvelle-route-du-littoral-a-l-ile-de-la-reunion-a3062.html


Thanks .

*N1:* La Possession-North – Saint-Denis-West 12.3km (December 2013 to 2018) – ? – map

Is the data correct? Is there any project page?


----------



## charpentier

^^
http://www.nouvelleroutedulittoral.re/le-chantier/article/rappel-des-principales


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A709 Montpellier*

The A9 project in Montpellier includes a new six-lane autoroute that bypasses Montpellier, a classic congestion spot during the summer. The existing A9 through Montpellier will be renumbered to A709.

Official announcement + sign schematics:

http://www.bulletin-officiel.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/fiches/BO20156/met_20150006_0000_0022.pdf

Project website: http://www.deplacement-a9.fr/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A31 Toul - Luxembourg*

There is a study underway to widen parts of A31 to six lanes and build new alignments to reduce congestion in the Lorraine area, from Toul to the Luxembourg border.

The main plan is to build a new alignment from Toul to north of Nancy to bypass the city of Nancy, and a new link near Thionville to bypass the urban section. The other segments would be widened to 2x3 lanes where it presently has 2x2 lanes. 

The new alignment near Nancy will be tolled in all scenarios, but the widened section to Metz and the new alignment near Thionville could be constructed as toll-free autoroutes. A decision will be made late 2015.

infographs:


















There used to be plans to build an entirely new autoroute - to be called A32 - that would bypass the entire region, and shoot straight north from Toul to Thionville or even Esch-sur-Alzette. This plan appears to be canceled due to cost and possible lack of profitability as a toll road next to a toll-free route.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> There used to be plans to build an entirely new autoroute - to be called A32 - that would bypass the entire region, and shoot straight north from Toul to Thionville or even Esch-sur-Alzette. This plan appears to be canceled due to cost and possible lack of profitability as a toll road next to a toll-free route.


To Esch? I read a German news article from Luxembourg yesterday. It reports that the new motorway was planned to be parallel to the German border :nuts:. It should connect to the German motorway network near Trier. But project is "dead" (canceled). That's very strange and I've never read about that motorway on German territory earlier.... This motorway route would be far east of Esch........


----------



## MichiH

Wolfgang16 said:


> There are 2 further projects on N88:
> 
> 1. Aménagement de Saint-Jean - La Mothe
> *N88:* La Baraque St-Jean – La Mothe 13.7km (2010? to Q2/2015) – project – map
> 
> The opening Q2/2015 is confirmed in the latest press release.
> Wikipedia says April 2015.


_Wikipedia_ says June 2015 now. No source.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*M6202, Alpes-Maritimes*

I filmed some of M6202 north of Nice, driving into the Alps. Quite a scenic route along the Var River. Apparently the M-numbers were introduced in 2012, and they are signed.


----------



## Wolfgang16

MichiH said:


> _Wikipedia_ says June 2015 now. No source.


I believe that has been written in the Forum Sara, but thats in maintenance at the moment.


----------



## Julien06200

ChrisZwolle said:


> I filmed some of M6202 north of Nice, driving into the Alps. Quite a scenic route along the Var River. Apparently the M-numbers were introduced in 2012, and they are signed.


Regarding road marking, I think it's because this part of the road is sometime used as a two-way road, when the tunnels on the neighbouring M6012 are closed for maintenance.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> I filmed some of M6202 north of Nice, driving into the Alps. Quite a scenic route along the Var River. Apparently the M-numbers were introduced in 2012, and they are signed.
> 
> [video erased due to budget cuts]


'M6202 is the former N202, which ran all the way through the Alps from Lake Geneva to Nice'. Actually N202 still exists, although none of it is on its original alignment, as it now runs from Barreme to the junction with its former route at Gueydan bridge over what was N207, which is a dead end on the current national route system. And it didn't made all the way through the Alps, as it had a gap between Les Contamines and the Cormet de Roselend.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ That's way too long to include in a video.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Julien06200 said:


> Regarding road marking, I think it's because this part of the road is sometime used as a two-way road, when the tunnels on the neighbouring M6012 are closed for maintenance.


Sounds plausible, but at the end of the video you can see how it narrows to one lane. They would need to remove the bollards and change the road markings there for two-way operation.


----------



## Minato ku

Note that M=Route Métropolitaine _Metropolitan road_.
This means that this road is administered by the intercommunal structure called Metropole (here "Métropole Nice Côte d'Azur") instead of the Departement (D) or the State (N).

I think that in a close future, more and more former national roads and departemental roads in and around the main French cities will become M road.
The idea is to replace the departements by Metropoles for the biggest cities of France.


----------



## Suburbanist

That road is very interesting. Have you been to the Col de la Bonette?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, I filmed it all the way to Col de La Bonette, but the footage didn't turn out so great. It got cloudy and it rained a bit on the way up. The way down to Jausiers may be worth salvaging though.


----------



## MichiH

Wolfgang16 said:


> I believe that has been written in the Forum Sara, but thats in maintenance at the moment.


I don't think so. I've checked it on Sunday .


----------



## Bender

ChrisZwolle said:


> There used to be plans to build an entirely new autoroute - to be called A32 - that would bypass the entire region, and shoot straight north from Toul to Thionville or even Esch-sur-Alzette. This plan appears to be canceled due to cost and possible lack of profitability as a toll road next to a toll-free route.


22 years to widen a highway where there is not that much to do :nuts:

The A31 is an embarrassment. Third World Highway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've driven the entire length of A31 last year and it's really not a 'third world highway'. Pavement quality is mostly adequate to excellent. Only Toul - Nancy has deteriorated pavement, but even then it's not really bad. The most annoying thing about A31 in Lorraine is the very long 110 km/h speed limit, from Toul all the way to the Luxembourg border.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Route des Crêtes*

Possibly one of the best drives in France, the Route des Crêtes east of Marseille. It runs over the highest cliffs in France (the highest being 396 m), with very scenic views of the Mediterranean Sea.


----------



## verreme

^^ You were lucky as that road is often closed due to fire risk. The "direct" route via D559 is also very scenic though.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I tried it a few days before and it was closed due to high winds / fire danger. There was a strong Mistral the first couple of days I was in that area. I stayed near Aix-en-Provence, which is more protected from the Mistral apparently. I drove A7 with a strong tailwind, and also felt the Mistral on A54 and N568, but it was unnoticable near Aix.


----------



## Suburbanist

verreme said:


> ^^ You were lucky as that road is often closed due to fire risk. The "direct" route via D559 is also very scenic though.


Fire risk there?

Doesn't look a prime location for forest fires :dunno:


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> Fire risk there?
> 
> Doesn't look a prime location for forest fires :dunno:


All the area is strictly protected against forest fires. Some roads, such as the one leading to Calanque de Sormiou in Marseille, are closed all summer days. And if fire risk is exceptionally high, some _calanques_ are also closed to pedestrians. The official website of Calanques de Marseille natural park has some detailed information on scheduled road closures and fires in the park. The main risk is wind associated to fire. Wind gusts over 100 km/h are very common, and that way fire can spread quickly. _Mistral_ wind is everywhere in Marseille area; and it blows _very_ hard -you don't realize it until you feel it.

There are similar restrictions in nearby natural spaces. For example, La Sainte-Baume mountain is closed for pedestrians when fire risk is especially high. They put signs banning pedestrians on the roads that climb to it. It sounds (and is) a bit odd to ban people from the countryside, but the French love to ban stuff


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A8 Cannes / Nice*

A video of A8 in the Cannes / Nice area. It is said to be the busiest stretch of motorway outside of Paris, but I haven't been able to find any exact traffic counts. The eight-lane section may be over 200,000 vehicles per day.


----------



## Wolfgang16

MichiH said:


> I don't think so. I've checked it on Sunday .


Look here.
It seems to be an official source.



> Quelqu'un aurait-il une période officielle pour l'ouverture de Naucelle - La Mothe ?
> 
> ...
> 
> Mise en service courant Juin.
> 
> ...
> 
> Quelles sont tes sources ?
> 
> ...
> 
> Le chef de projet en charge de la déviation de Naucelle au SIR d'Albi (DIRSO).


----------



## Reivajar

ChrisZwolle said:


> A video of A8 in the Cannes / Nice area. It is said to be the busiest stretch of motorway outside of Paris, but I haven't been able to find any exact traffic counts. The eight-lane section may be over 200,000 vehicles per day.


According to 2010 data (the newest one I've found), the highest AADT on the A8 around Nice is 132.900 veh/day on the stretch which is closest to the airport.

Outside of Paris, I've found that for example the A7 on the access to Marseilles got a highest AADT, over 140.000 veh/day.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The busiest stretch is probably between Cagnes-sur-Mer and Saint-Laurent-du-Var, as it has eight lanes. 

I noticed how poorly the Voie Mathis is connected to A8. Google Maps suggests a very circuitous route.


----------



## Minato ku

Reivajar said:


> Outside of Paris, I've found that for example the A7 on the access to Marseilles got a highest AADT, over 140.000 veh/day.


I think you can find higher on the Boulevard Périphérique of Lyon around Villeurbanne but it is not an autoroute.


----------



## Wolfgang16

But in contrast to Marseille and Lyon this motorway is tolled and the rates are not lower than elsewhere. I wonder where all the money goes to.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I noticed how poorly the Voie Mathis is connected to A8. Google Maps suggests a very circuitous route.


A8 to Voie Mathis is quite easy although its not for big trucks and there is a funny traffic light involved after which access to Voie Mathis starts as a left hand road!

Route

The other direction is not so simple, but the exits 50 and 51 of A8 are in complete reconstruction. I don't know how it will look like at the end.

However very annoying I found the connection between the two main roads here, the former N7 (M6007 which includes Voie Mathis) and the former N98 (the coastal road M6098). Both share the same bridge over the river Var, but the interconnecion is very poor. When coming from the West on N98 you can't switch over to N7. Even the two big junctions on both ends of the bridge don't offer this connection. It would be necessary to go from N98 to A8 before the bridge and then follow the route in my link above, the exit with the queue in the video (its not tolled).:nuts:


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> A video of A8 in the Cannes / Nice area. It is said to be the busiest stretch of motorway outside of Paris, but I haven't been able to find any exact traffic counts. The eight-lane section may be over 200,000 vehicles per day.


I see they are rebuilding that crazy curve just West of Nice. I had never seen such a low permanent speed limit on a motorway mainline before I saw that 50 km/h limit on that curve, and I've never seen any after that.


----------



## Redstear

CNGL said:


> I see they are rebuilding that crazy curve just West of Nice. I had never seen such a low permanent speed limit on a motorway mainline before I saw that 50 km/h limit on that curve, and I've never seen any after that.


Spain has worse corners


----------



## Minato ku

CNGL said:


> I see they are rebuilding that crazy curve just West of Nice. I had never seen such a low permanent speed limit on a motorway mainline before I saw that 50 km/h limit on that curve, and I've never seen any after that.


There is the A7 in Lyon
https://www.google.fr/maps/@45.748198,4.82963,3a,75y,154.91h,91.96t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s3N7VPx21sp8bkRFJpkV0BQ!2e0?hl=en

The A7 in Lyon is not up to autoroute standards, especially on the Mulatière bridge.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Autoroute A350 in Strasbourg has been declassed to N2350. It's a 1200 meter long autoroute, more like a big exit than an actual motorway.

http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000030481271&dateTexte=&categorieLien=id


----------



## Luki_SL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Autoroute A350 in Strasbourg has been declassed to N2350. It's a 1200 meter long autoroute, more like a big exit than an actual motorway.


Usually declassed motorway gets "D" number. Four-digit national road number is a liitle strange thing.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*M2205 Vallée de Tinée*

A video of road M2205 through the Tinée River Valley north of Nice, into the Mercantour National Park. I was surprised by the four-lane 110 km/h stretch in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> A video of road M2205 through the Tinée River Valley north of Nice, into the Mercantour National Park. I was surprised by the four-lane 110 km/h stretch in the middle of nowhere.


These "hidden" four-lane stretches are not uncommon in France  (1, 2, 3).


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> A video of road M2205 through the Tinée River Valley north of Nice, into the Mercantour National Park.* I was surprised by the four-lane 110 km/h stretch in the middle of nowhere.*


I had the same w.t.h. feeling when driving there some years ago.


----------



## Luki_SL

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was surprised by the four-lane 110 km/h stretch in the middle of nowhere.


The bicyclist on the stretch with 110km/h speed limit is suprising too


----------



## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> These "hidden" four-lane stretches are not uncommon in France  (1, 2, 3).


I've been on number 2 and 3 

I wonder what people in such valleys do for a living, when they live way out in the boonies. It's really far from any facilities like supermarkets or jobs. Some will probably work in tourism, but there isn't a lot of agriculture possible and tourism's only a few months per year (there were many signs for ski areas). 

Imagine going skiing in Isola 2000, and then having a drink 2 hours later on a beach under the palm trees in Nice.


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've been on number 2 and 3
> 
> I wonder what people in such valleys do for a living, when they live way out in the boonies. It's really far from any facilities like supermarkets or jobs. Some will probably work in tourism, but there isn't a lot of agriculture possible and tourism's only a few months per year (there were many signs for ski areas).
> 
> Imagine going skiing in Isola 2000, and then having a drink 2 hours later on a beach under the palm trees in Nice.


This is why alpine small towns have been withering population since WW1. Some towns are now also gearing up more and more for summer tourism (rafting, hiking etc).


----------



## verreme

Luki_SL said:


> The bicyclist on the stretch with 110km/h speed limit is suprising too


Why? They're allowed in this type of road, there's no restriction to motor vehicles.

There are many countries that allow bicycles in roads with a speed limit higher than 100 km/h.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I've been on number 2 and 3
> 
> I wonder what people in such valleys do for a living, when they live way out in the boonies. It's really far from any facilities like supermarkets or jobs. Some will probably work in tourism, but there isn't a lot of agriculture possible and tourism's only a few months per year (there were many signs for ski areas).
> 
> Imagine going skiing in Isola 2000, and then having a drink 2 hours later on a beach under the palm trees in Nice.


There's a growing rural tourism industry in these villages. We have the same trend in Spain. More and more people enjoy hiking, climbing and other mountain sports, and this has been a breath of fresh air for mountain regions that were having a steady population decline since the Industrial Revolution.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> A video of road M2205 through the Tinée River Valley north of Nice, into the Mercantour National Park. I was surprised by the four-lane 110 km/h stretch in the middle of nowhere.


Heck, it was re-lettered in 2012, yet my 2014 road atlas still shows it as _D_2205 (former N205, first version). It seems metropolitan roads go all the way up to the Col de la Bonnette summit, way out from Nice! :nuts:. On the other hand, M6202 reverts to D6202 soon after the M2205 turnoff.


----------



## verreme

A video of A63 along the French Basque coast. 67 kilometers of this motorway are going to be expanded to 2x3 by 2020. The stretch between Biarritz and the Spanish border (the one featured in the video) is U/C and will open in 2017; another stretch is already finished, and in the Northernmost one construction is expected to start in 2016. When done, there will be a 2x3 motorway from just South of Bordeaux to Spain 






It's a shame that the rest of the roads in the French Basque Country are such crap and with no long-term solutions in sight. Classic French -long-distance _autoroutes_ are pristine and get you around quickly, but metro areas suffer from structural congestion due to severely undersized roads.

I've seen fewer construction sites as active as this one by the way. I wouldn't be surprised if they finished the widening ahead of schedule.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Col de la Bonette*

A video of the Col de la Bonette, the highest paved road in France and one of the highest public roads in Europe. It goes up to 2802 meters.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A7 Orange - Lançon*

I found some more footage of A7 on an external HDD. This is an 80 kilometer stretch of A7 from Orange to Lançon, with the huge toll plaza.


----------



## Minato ku

I found a video of driving in Tahiti (French Polynesia).





At 7:27 the road become an expressway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A400, Autoroute du Chablais*

The A400 may get constructed after all. It is planned to issue a declaration of public utility (DUP) by 2018 or 2019, and open the motorway by 2023. This motorway from Annemasse to Thonon (east of Genève) has been planned for decades but was scrapped in 1997.

http://www.lesechos.fr/pme-regions/...oute-pour-desenclaver-le-chablais-1120990.php


----------



## verreme

Wow, France recovering shelved motorway plans? I must be dreaming


----------



## Minato ku

An aerial view of the A507 (u/c) in Marseille
116761761


----------



## verreme

^^ Nice to see that works are moving -L2 may be the French motorway that's been U/C for the most time.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> _
> 
> 
> Wolfgang16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are 2 further projects on N88:
> 
> 1. Aménagement de Saint-Jean - La Mothe
> *N88:* La Baraque St-Jean – La Mothe 13.7km (2010? to Q2/2015) – project – map
> 
> The opening Q2/2015 is confirmed in the latest press release.
> Wikipedia says April 2015.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wikipedia says June 2015 now. No source._


A news article (2nd June) reports that "it's only a matter of days" till the section will be opened.


----------



## MichiH

*A304:* Rocroi – Charleroi-Mezieres (A34) 31km (July 2011 to Late 2016) – project – map

The project seems to be delayed. The completion date has been changed to 2017 on _wikisara_.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A719 Vichy - Gannat*

The A719 extension opened in January 2015. I drove on it two weeks ago.


A719-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


A719-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


A719-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


A719-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


A719-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


A719-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


A719-11 by European Roads, on Flickr


A719-13 by European Roads, on Flickr


A719-14 by European Roads, on Flickr


A719-16 by European Roads, on Flickr


A719-17 by European Roads, on Flickr


A719-19 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> I found some more footage of A7 on an external HDD. This is an 80 kilometer stretch of A7 from Orange to Lançon, with the huge toll plaza.


they (used to) serve wonderful tarte de framboise on that rest area where you stopped at the end of the video


----------



## winnipeg

x-type said:


> they (used to) serve wonderful tarte de framboise on that rest area where you stopped at the end of the video


*Tarte à la framboise


----------



## Kanadzie

A tart in English is so much more amusing


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A75, Viaduc de Millau*

I recorded almost all of A75 on my trip to Spain. Here's the first highlight, the Viaduc de Millau, an icon of French highway construction.


----------



## acela

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A719 extension opened in January 2015. I drove on it two weeks ago.
> 
> 
> A719-7 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> Why the autoroute looks so narrow?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Probably to save cost. The traffic volumes are very low. It's only a spur to Vichy, which is only a regional city. At least it has shoulders. Some parts of A29 in northern France do not have shoulders.


----------



## Suburbanist

I just can't like the French shoulder marking pattern...


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> I just can't like the French shoulder marking pattern...


It's very helpful: every stripe is two seconds at 130 km/h, which is the minimum safety distance you must keep. It may not be aesthetically pleasant, but it should be like that everywhere, since you don't have any other way to measure the distance with the vehicle in front of you.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Delineators are placed every 50 m in Spain, which is also helpful. 

The two stripes rule is quite unrealistic on busy motorways, like in Paris or Marseille. Even on the open highway most people don't commence their passing already two stripes before the car ahead.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> Delineators are placed every 50 m in Spain, which is also helpful.
> 
> The two stripes rule is quite unrealistic on busy motorways, like in Paris or Marseille. Even on the open highway most people don't commence their passing already two stripes before the car ahead.


Drivers may not obey the "two stripes" rule, but driving with a distance shorter than one stripe will earn you a ticket -so it's definitely helpful.

In Spain we've had several instructions for side lane markings; some motorways have dashed ones, some others don't, so most people don't mind them. Most tunnels, though, have unreal safety distance rules -I know of two 2x3 tunnels that carry 100,000+ vehicles a day and have signs mandating a 100 m distance between vehicles, which is just impossible for that throughput.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The minimum fine in France is € 68, but is reduced to € 45 if you pay quickly. 

So whether you drive 1 km/h or 19 km/h over the limit, the standard fine is € 68.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

x-type said:


> is there some particular thing for placing the shoulder on the left side of that claustrophobic thing?


The tunnel is a single tube, with two decks. The shoulder is on the left northbound, and on the right southbound, so the escape routes both allow access to the shoulder instead of driving lane.


----------



## BlackC

Hi guys, I have a question about Telepeage;

Do you pay less at the tollbooth when you use telepeage or does the cost at every peage stay the same ?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nearly all toll roads charge the same rates for cash, credit cards & télépéage. In fact, you have to pay a small subscription rate for the télépéage badge in the months that you use it. 

However, some toll roads, for instance A86 Duplex in Paris, charge lower prices for télépéage, I'm not sure if that's for all télépéage users in France, or only for specific subscriptions. I have yet to get the bill for my last trip in France, it should've cost me € 4 instead of € 7 at A86 Duplex.


----------



## BlackC

Hmm, so it's more of a convenient thing to do instead of doing it to save on your trip ?


----------



## Suburbanist

BlackC said:


> Hmm, so it's more of a convenient thing to do instead of doing it to save on your trip ?


Sure. It saves time as well.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I find it extremely convenient. No hassle with tickets, wallet, stopping.


----------



## verreme

Eulanthe said:


> Chris - you got fined for 95km/h in a 90? That's unbelievably harsh!
> 
> How much was the fine?


The tolerance of the speed camera is substracted in the ticket, so he was probably driving 100 km/h (there's a 5 km/h tolerance for speeds below 100 km/h and 5% for above 100).

But yes, speeding tickets in Europe are getting more and more similar to an extra tax or toll.


----------



## Wolfgang16

verreme said:


> so he was probably driving 100 km/h


No, if 95 km/h is measured, then 4 km/h is subtracted as tolerance, which results in 91 km/h, which is 1 km/h too much and costs 45€.

Exceeding the 50 km/h in villages costs 90€!


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## ChrisZwolle

From what I've seen, there are very few speed cameras inside villages. They are usually on some straight stretch or a downhill before entering a village.


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## Wolfgang16

When main routes go through small villages then i would expect a speed camera. One got me in La Brousse on N145 (RCEA). Usually there is a warning shortly before or at least a "rappel" sign. RCEA seems to have many speed cameras.


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## ChrisZwolle

A466, which links A6 and A46 north of Lyon, opens to traffic next Saturday, 4 July.

http://www.leprogres.fr/rhone/2015/06/29/l-autoroute-a-466-doit-ouvrir-samedi-a-la-circulation


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## ChrisZwolle

A 5 kilometer widening of A71 near Vierzon has been completed today. It's a 5 kilometer stretch between the A85 and A20 interchanges. There are now 2x3 lanes. It's the third recent widening project of A71, after a short stretch near Orléans in 2011 and a short stretch near Clermont-Ferrand in 2014.

http://www.lanouvellerepublique.fr/...A71-elargie-entre-Theillay-et-Vierzon-2388016


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## ChrisZwolle

A 13.7 kilometer segment of four lane expressway N88 was inaugurated today. It opens to traffic tomorrow. It runs from La Mothe to La-Baraque-Saint-Jean, which is between Rodez and Albi.

http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2015/07/01/2135349-inauguration-du-troncon-de-la-mothe.html


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

A8





I noticed a tunnel on 1:44.What is going on there ?


----------



## Julien06200

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> A8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed a tunnel on 1:44.What is going on there ?


There is a landslide in this area and the carriageway driven on the video is slowly sliding downhill.
So, the plan is to move the traffic towards Italy into this new tunnel (which is called _Tunnel de la Borne romaine_) and the traffic towards Nice and Antibes is the carriageway that is currently used towards Italy.


----------



## Eulanthe

Wolfgang16 said:


> No, if 95 km/h is measured, then 4 km/h is subtracted as tolerance, which results in 91 km/h, which is 1 km/h too much and costs 45€.
> 
> Exceeding the 50 km/h in villages costs 90€!


Ouch. There's a 10km/h tolerance here in PL, but they want to get rid of it - which is absolutely idiotic.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ In North America that tolerance does not exist
If they see 140 km/h on their radar, your ticket will say 140 km/h and cost a lot.

However it is customary to have the ability to negotiate with the prosecutor a plea-bargain if you take the ticket to court, where they will reduce the ticket by "one class less", so perhaps instead of 140, you would get 130.

But no officer would actually bother you if saw you at 110 km/h in zone 100 or similar, unless you are black or he thinks you have drugs.

Poland being stricter on speeding would be horrible. The current Polish situation is one of the better things about that country. It has evolved "west" enough that the police won't be corrupted by a few zloty and let you go, but not so far that it becomes a French-style radar hellhole.


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## winnipeg

But in north america, there's almost no radars (There is 2 and 3 years ago I made 2 bigs roadtrip in the US and Canada, for the last one I made 17.000km in one month...) and I only got 1 control and 1 ticket for speeding...

So I would say that there's probably 100 times less controls in the US for instance than in France...


----------



## Maciek_CK

I don’t know about France or the Unites States, but in Poland one of the major problems is lack of respect for speed limits. Let me be clear what this is about: I don’t refer to morons who drive over 100 km/h in city centers under heavy traffic just because in their minds they possess the ultimate driving skills and they’re not limited by law. I refer to generally law abiding citizens who are annoyed by speed limits that are left behind after a completed construction or have no reasonable explanation in a particular place and eventually they ignore these restrictions. In the long term, it weakens respect for speed limits elsewhere.


----------



## winnipeg

Maciek_CK said:


> I don’t know about France or the Unites States, but in Poland one of the major problems is lack of respect for speed limits. Let me be clear what this is about: I don’t refer to morons who drive over 100 km/h in city centers under heavy traffic just because in their minds they possess the ultimate driving skills and they’re not limited by law. I refer to generally law abiding citizens who are annoyed by speed limits that are left behind after a completed construction or have no reasonable explanation in a particular place and eventually they ignore these restrictions. In the long term, it weakens respect for speed limits elsewhere.


Your analise is true, when you put much pressure on people, after a moment it become too much... hno: Maybe that is the reason of the increasing of deads on french roads during the last months... hno:

Also I don't think that speed is the main problem in France, in France most of peoples are respectfull of speed limits or they don't really drive "dangerously" unlike in many other countries (for example Romania, where I can see how peoples doesn't have any respect for limitations and have no notion of limitations)... hno:

In fact most of accidents in France are still linked to usage of alcohol or drugs, and a recent survey showed that almost 80% of french peoples are thinking that there is not enough control for alcohol on the road... 

And yes I personaly believe that speed cams can bring money in the "coffers of the state" while fight against alcoholism aren't making such money. (According from a recent study from a big french car magazine, around 52% of speedcams aren't placed in dangerous areas (where accidents already occured), most of them are placed in "safe" areas...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A75 La Méridienne*

Some more photos of A75 through the Massif Central. It is one of the best motorway rides in France. The 330 kilometers from Clermont-Ferrand to Béziers are behind you before you know it, the route never bores.


A75-111 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-116 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-118 by European Roads, on Flickr

Hey what's that in the distance? 

A75-124 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-125 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-130 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-136 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-138 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-140 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-146 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-154 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-155 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-158 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-160 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-169 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-176 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-179 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-185 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-188 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75-193 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Wolfgang16

ChrisZwolle said:


> A 13.7 kilometer segment of four lane expressway N88 was inaugurated today. It opens to traffic tomorrow. It runs from La Mothe to La-Baraque-Saint-Jean, which is between Rodez and Albi.
> 
> http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2015/07/01/2135349-inauguration-du-troncon-de-la-mothe.html


The first video is published:






Curvature is well done, even 548 km/h is not scaring.


----------



## Eulanthe

Maciek_CK said:


> I don’t know about France or the Unites States, but in Poland one of the major problems is lack of respect for speed limits. Let me be clear what this is about: I don’t refer to morons who drive over 100 km/h in city centers under heavy traffic just because in their minds they possess the ultimate driving skills and they’re not limited by law. I refer to generally law abiding citizens who are annoyed by speed limits that are left behind after a completed construction or have no reasonable explanation in a particular place and eventually they ignore these restrictions. In the long term, it weakens respect for speed limits elsewhere.


Yes, it's particularly noticeable with the vast amount of 60km/h limits at junctions that have separate turning lanes and don't require such dramatic decreases. They're almost universally ignored, and I think it's a huge cause of the general disrespect towards speed limits.


----------



## ChasingCars

Next week is the 14th of July, or le quatorze juillet as pronounced in France. As it is a public holiday, I am curious whether the roads will become busy? 
I am personally interested as well, as my holiday starts on the 14th and I will travel from Utrecht (NL) to the Dordogne area on this day.
Maybe our French forummers could shed some light on this? Thanks!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ There are no problems expected that day. I'm guessing most French have a long weekend.

Traffic calendar of Bison Futé:

http://www.bison-fute.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Calendrier_2015_Bison_Fute_A5_DEFV2.pdf


----------



## hammersklavier

Maciek_CK said:


> I don’t know about France or the Unites States, but in Poland one of the major problems is lack of respect for speed limits. Let me be clear what this is about: I don’t refer to morons who drive over 100 km/h in city centers under heavy traffic just because in their minds they possess the ultimate driving skills and they’re not limited by law. I refer to generally law abiding citizens who are annoyed by speed limits that are left behind after a completed construction or have no reasonable explanation in a particular place and eventually they ignore these restrictions. In the long term, it weakens respect for speed limits elsewhere.


Well...Speeding is considered the #1 problem in the United States.

The reason it's a problem is that a lot of American roads are overdesigned relative to their posted speeds. When your road has geometry for traveling at 60 mph (100 kph) and your posted speed limit is 40 mph (65 kph) ... what do you think is going to win out? (I will also note that, by and large, motorists do respect a road's design speed.)

For a long time there was a tacit understanding among cops to not enforce excessively low speed limit restrictions. It's only relatively recently that enforcement has become stricter, particularly in municipalities in decline ... like Ferguson, MO.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A63 Biarritz - Bordeaux*

The N10 was widened to 2x3 lanes and renumbered A63 in 2013. It is also tolled, but only with an open barrier system, and quite some stretches are untolled.

I took some photos on a Sunday morning, when trucks are banned and there is no commuter traffic. 


A63-24 by European Roads, on Flickr


A63-28 by European Roads, on Flickr


A63-30 by European Roads, on Flickr


A63-32 by European Roads, on Flickr


A63-35 by European Roads, on Flickr


A63-40 by European Roads, on Flickr


A63-42 by European Roads, on Flickr


A63-45 by European Roads, on Flickr


A63-49 by European Roads, on Flickr


A63-54 by European Roads, on Flickr


A63-56 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## BlackC

It's a HUGE imrpovement on the N10 before. Traffic jams were normal every year there + the road was in a very poor state. Very glad they updated and upgraded that part. The only part of N10 I still use now is between Poitiers and Angouleme. (which is an expressway with 2x2 lanes mostly.


----------



## Wolfgang16

^^ But tolls are extraordinarily high. In class 1 its about 3.5€ for a 10 km stretch of plain motorway, no bridge, no tunnel!


----------



## Suburbanist

I remember A65 tolls being very expensive as well..


----------



## Sesto Elemento

Brisavoine:



Brisavoine said:


> ChrisZwolle said:
> 
> 
> 
> A curvy stretch through a shallow canyon. I got fined for doing 95 in a 90 zone (of course the speed camera was on a straight section).
> 
> 
> 
> That curvy stretch is the most annoying part of the A75! The reason for its existence is because of former president Valéry Giscard-d'Estaing and the monarchical way in which France functions.
> 
> Initially the A75 was of course not supposed to go through those narrow and curvy gorges. It was supposed to go straight, like a regular motorway, on the plateau above those gorges, but apparently Mr Giscard-d'Estaing owns a château on that plateau, and he opposed the building of the motorway near his château, and since he has a lot of levy within the French State, eventually the authorities caved in and decided to use the old curvy road inside the gorges and just enlarged it, thus sparing the tranquility of the former president, but making this section hell for drivers. Welcome to France! :bash:
> 
> Also in terms of "welcome to France", I'm not surprised by your fine. France has become a hell for drivers in recent years, with all their speed traps and cameras. The country is victim of a 'road safety' lobby that is just as extremist at the old alcohol prohibitionist lobby in the US back in the 1920s. Politicians are scared to oppose that 'road safety' lobby, so year after year they enact stricter and stricter rules to please that lobby. Only 2 weeks ago they banned handsfree mobile phones in car.
> 
> The lobby has even more extreme plans in the pipeline. They want the government to track the time you enter a motorway and leave it (with the electronic record of your crossing the tool booths), so they can calculate your average speed on the entire section of a motorway, and fine you if your average speed was in excess of 130 km/h.
> 
> They also want to reduce speed limits: 120 km/h on motorways and 80 km/h on non-motorways. They also want systematic control of speed day and night by unidentified cars (i.e. police driving non-police cars and posing as tourists).
> 
> Their guru is a bitter woman in her 60s who receives lots of airtime on French TV and radios and whose statements are never ever challenged by journalists (such as "decreasing speed is the best way to decrease deaths on the roads, all experts show that a 10 km/h decrease means bla bla bla").
> 
> Politicians have chauffeurs anyway + 1st class free tickets in TGV high-speed trains and domestic Air France flights, so they don't care about these super strict rules which don't affect them.
Click to expand...


----------



## BlackC

Sesto Elemento said:


> Brisavoine:


Sounds like you are describing Belgium or the Netherlands. Welcome to Europe. If you fart, you get fined.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A719 Vichy - Gannat*

I made a video of A719 from Vichy to Gannat. Note how the first section from Vichy to the toll plaza has only one lane.


----------



## Nexis




----------



## verreme

^^ The driver of that bus was either stupid or a psychopath -you can see clearly that the tunnel is _very_ low for a bus, plus there are signs with the maximum allowed height. Getting in trouble with a caravan or a low van is somewhat easy to understand, but that is just absurd.


----------



## CNGL

Next week I'll be going into France. First I'll go to the Bordeaux area and then to the French Basque Country (the so-called _Iparralde_). Since A65 tolls are so damn expensive, what is the best route to avoid it? A63 through Landes is hard to avoid, but at least is cheaper IIRC.


----------



## slickman

^^ Well, I guess via Orthez, Mont-de-Marsan and then via D834 towards Bordeaux would be an interesting alternative. You will join the A63 after the tollboth, so the rest of the A63 till Bordeaux is without toll.


----------



## Fane40

CNGL said:


> Next week I'll be going into France. First I'll go to the Bordeaux area and then to the French Basque Country (the so-called _Iparralde_). Since A65 tolls are so damn expensive, what is the best route to avoid it? A63 through Landes is hard to avoid, but at least is cheaper IIRC.


Yes, the road to the Somport tunnel ,Oloron, Orthez ,Mont-de Marsan is good and quiet.
But Orthez is annoying to go through. And some stretches before and after the town are difficult behind a truck.
An other road: Oloron, follow D936 to Sauveterre de béarn, D933 and D 430 to Puyoo, Dax (new bypass since this year) D947 to Castets and take the A63 to Bordeaux (one toll )
I know some other roads and shortcuts but difficult to explain and only to win 10 minutes.
For example: puerto del Portalet , Pau and two solutions:
1: the old national road parallel at the A65 to the east of Bordeaux, or go to Mont de Marsan after Aire sur l'adour (toll free to bypass the city by the A65) to go west of Bordeaux.


----------



## hammersklavier

verreme said:


> ^^ The driver of that bus was either stupid or a psychopath -you can see clearly that the tunnel is _very_ low for a bus, plus there are signs with the maximum allowed height. Getting in trouble with a caravan or a low van is somewhat easy to understand, but that is just absurd.


Why assume malevolence?

The news report says quite clearly most of the passengers were asleep. This suggests it was dark, and since this was a chartered bus and the driver didn't really know the route, he probably didn't see the clearance sign till it was too late (if at all).

TBH what really stuck out was that he was supposedly using a GPS. But then GPS systems for the trucking industry (had better!) have clearance restrictions on them, so that they can plot the best routes for (for example) overheight trucks.

It sounds to me like this was caused by night + driver unfamiliarity + charter company refusing to get a commercial GPS. No need to pass moral judgments on the driver.


----------



## Reivajar

Me neither. This time for crossing Paris I've choosen the BP, and out of the working area in the Quai d'Ivry interchange, it was as funny as usual.  That's true that I've notice an absolutely lack of lighting on the tunnel on the A3 in Bagnolet.

About the state of roads, the same as usual. No big changes. That's true that when I don't want to use tolled motorways between Paris and the Basque Country lately I prefer to use the N20 between Paris and Vierzon, then the A20 to Limoges, and finally joining the N10 in Angoulême from the N141.


----------



## Luki_SL

Reivajar said:


> Me neither. This time for crossing Paris I've choosen the BP, and out of the working area in the Quai d'Ivry interchange, it was as funny as usual.  That's true that I've notice an absolutely lack of lighting on the tunnel on the A3 in Bagnolet
> .


In the tunnels there MUST be lighting. The motorway administrator should fix this problem.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

*A1 Paris - Ch. de Gaulle Airport Terminal 2E*


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

*FR / Paris Ch. de Gaulle Airport / Driveway to T1 T2 T3*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N10 Bordeaux - Angoulême - Poitiers*

I took 127 photos of N10 between Bordeaux and Poitiers. It is a very good alternative to tolled A10 (in fact it is even shorter). There is one two-lane section and a few stretches with at-grade intersections, but no traffic lights or roundabouts.

You can view the entire album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/albums/72157657221128549

Some highlights:

1. N10 branching off A10 just north of Bordeaux.

N10-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. The typical layout of N10: a voie express with 110 km/h speed limit.

N10-12 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. Angoulême is the major city between Bordeaux en Poitiers. Of course there are more Dutch on the road.

N10-14 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. There is one segment with a single carriageway between Bordeaux and Angoulême. Upgrade is ongoing, but appears slow.

N10-25 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

N10-28 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. Exit to Cognac.

N10-30 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. Some gently rolling hills. Don't expect much fantastic scenery in western France, it's mostly fairly flat.

N10-37 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. One of two dozen Châteaneufs in France.

N10-41 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. Closing in on Angoulême.

N10-45 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. We cross the new high-speed rail to Bordeaux. It is nearly completed.

N10-48 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. D1000 is the beltway of Angoulême, but it is not a high-standard road.

N10-55 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. Funny, three cities in different directions, nearly the same distance away.

N10-56 by European Roads, on Flickr

13. Interchange to N141, an east-west route nationale. This segment is a city street, a new bypass is partially completed further north.

N10-59 by European Roads, on Flickr

14. This is the future N141. Apparently numbered as N1141, but not signed as such from N10.

N10-60 by European Roads, on Flickr

15. Montluçon is a small city of 40,000, but signed from hours away throughout central France (presumably due to a lack of better control cities).

N10-61 by European Roads, on Flickr

16. Leaving Angoulême.

N10-64 by European Roads, on Flickr

17. New pavement. The pavement on toll-free N10 is generally adequate. Not as excellent as the toll roads though, but nothing to complain about.

N10-71 by European Roads, on Flickr

18. Several intersections.

N10-76 by European Roads, on Flickr

19. There are many passing bans for trucks and some stretches are limited to 80 km/h for trucks (as opposed to the regular 90 km/h).

N10-78 by European Roads, on Flickr

20. This looks like a twinned section of the former two-lane road.

N10-82 by European Roads, on Flickr

21. Caution, supermarkets next 5 km. :lol:

N10-86 by European Roads, on Flickr

22. Left exit, at-grade. I haven't seen this before in France.

N10-87 by European Roads, on Flickr

23. 

N10-89 by European Roads, on Flickr

24. Ruffec, a town with 3 exits.

N10-92 by European Roads, on Flickr

25. There are some slight hills on this part of N10. Not quite spectacular but it breaks the monotony of western France.

N10-97 by European Roads, on Flickr

26. Brux

N10-105 by European Roads, on Flickr

27. Rogue exit number.

N10-109 by European Roads, on Flickr

28. Closing in on Poitiers.

N10-115 by European Roads, on Flickr

29. Some more intersections.

N10-116 by European Roads, on Flickr

30. One of the many tax gantries of the never implemented tax on heavy goods vehicles. Hundreds have been installed at € 1 million each.

N10-123 by European Roads, on Flickr

31. Approaching the A10 interchange at Poitiers-Sud. I took A10 from here on to Paris.

N10-127 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## verreme

^^ That looks like a nice alternate route to A10. North of Poitiers it's still a very high-standard road (though no longer called N10), but it crosses villages and there are many roundabouts and traffic lights. I guess you can achieve a reasonably high average anyway. A10 is a rip-off -tolls are very high and there's the goddamn _gendarmes_ with tripods and binocles everywhere.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> 21. Caution, supermarkets next 5 km. :lol:


:rofl:

Now seriously, I read somewhere that supermarket chain got its name because the first one ever was at a road junction or _carrefour_ near Annecy.


----------



## Reivajar

verreme said:


> ^^ That looks like a nice alternate route to A10. North of Poitiers it's still a very high-standard road (though no longer called N10), but it crosses villages and there are many roundabouts and traffic lights. I guess you can achieve a reasonably high average anyway. A10 is a rip-off -tolls are very high and there's the goddamn _gendarmes_ with tripods and binocles everywhere.


From my experience... around 70-75 km/h as average... :S


----------



## slickman

I use the N10 on my way to Portugal and back.
It isn´t as confortable as the A10, the pavement is not as regular as on the Autoroute, but it is for free.
It is shorter as the stretch of the A10, and fuel is cheaper.


----------



## verreme

I was in Southeastern France last weekend and noticed quite a lot of stuff going on in the roads I drove:

- A9 is already 3+3 between Le Boulou and Perpignan. The website says this is only a temporary configuration (with a 110 km/h speed limit) for the summer, and that the motorway will soon be reverted to 2+2 to allow for the works to end in late 2016. This is quite a long construction time by the way, because most works are finished and only the final asphalt layer is remaining. Anyway, it was nice to drive without having to disengage cruise control almost never between Le Boulou (which is almost in Spain) and Montpellier 

- Construction for A9b in Montpellier is well underway. Almost the whole motorway is a big construction site, except for the stretch where the new roadway will be far from the existing one. Most underpasses are being widened and new interchanges are U/C. Speed limit is 90 km/h all the way, including the stretch where there are no works, so it looked to me like the speed camera that stands there will pay a part of this project.

- Another new (for me) construction site is the L2/A7 interchange in Marseille (website). This stretch of Marseille's ringroad hadn't started construction when I was last there in mid 2014, and now works are very advanced -which means they are hurrying up to get it ready on time. This is the only stretch of L2 that didn't start construction in the 1990s like the rest of the road.

- Last but not least, there's also Miramas bypass that's taking shape. This (which is the remaining section of a partially-built bypass) will be built as a dual-carriageway road, as there are plans to upgrade the RN569/1569 to this standard in the future.

I really appreciate that road projects in France have their own website. This isn't standard procedure in Spain, where you have to rely on the short press releases from Fomento (which is a best-case scenario -regional governments release even more sparse information) and the actual projects are harder to find. Even if this increases construction costs, it's a great move for the sake of transparency.


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through Île-de-France (France) from Saint-Denis to Goussainville 17.08.2015 Timelapse x4


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving from Paris to Roye (France) 17.08.2015 Timelapse x4


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*diesel*

I drove a couple thousand kilometers through France last week. I've been paying attention to the cars due to the recent diesel pollution discussion.

On the autoroute there are almost no old cars. Most cars are recent models. However, in rural areas / villages and in cities you'll see a lot (more than in other countries) old diesel cars. Both passenger cars, delivery vans and light trucks that are 20 - 30 years old. You can smell it driving behind them. Sometimes there's just thick black smoke coming out of them when they accelerate. 

Some of them are nice though, like a Peugeot 505 GTD. 1980s Peugeots are long gone from the streetscape in the Netherlands, save for perhaps an occassional Peugeot 205.

The amount of old diesel cars in France appears to be much higher than in other countries. Given the fact that 20 year old diesel cars pollute as much as 100 times more than a recent model diesel car, I can see why they want to outlaw them. Even if the share of 20+ year old diesel cars may be under 10%, they could be responsible for something like 80+% of diesel emissions.

They had the same discussion recently in the Netherlands, when the city of Utrecht introduced an environmental zone (much like in Germany). A few thousand pre-2000 diesel cars emitted as much as a hundred thousand recent model diesel cars. So even if you ban only a small share of total passenger cars, it has a major impact on reducing emissions. 

I'm not sure which tools France has at its disposal to ban / phase out old diesel cars. It's obvious they aren't being phased out as fast as in other countries through natural cycles. But there is no road tax in France, so that's not an incentive the government can use. That leaves environmental zones and maybe a subsidized 'vehicle retirement program' to scrap them in exchange for some cash to buy a new(er) car.


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## verreme

Considering that the car of choice for every French new driver has been the ubiquitous Peugeot 106 D/Citroën Saxo 1.5D/Renault Clio dCi for many years, and that many of these people have kept these cars because they are very reliable and cheap to run, phasing out all these pre-2000 cars will be extremely difficult, and painful. France having scrapped the "vignette" (road tax) 20 years ago doesn't certainly help.

I'm a bit skeptical about new cars being that nice and clean though. I've read that their "big" (PM10) particle emissions are indeed much lower, but instead they emit big quantities of smaller particles that can penetrate skin tissue more easily and thus cause diseases such as lung cancer. This also applies to new patrol engines, as direct injection systems such as Volkswagen's TSI do also emit small particles.


----------



## winnipeg

ChrisZwolle said:


> The amount of old diesel cars in France appears to be much higher than in other countries. *Given the fact that 20 year old diesel cars pollute as much as 100 times more than a recent model diesel car*, I can see why they want to outlaw them. Even if the share of 20+ year old diesel cars may be under 10%, they could be responsible for something like 80+% of diesel emissions.


Once again, it depends what you are considering... if you are only talking about particles, yes, this is true. If you are talking about nitrogen monoxides, this false, recent diesel cars are polluting more... hno:

So if we do the sum, the result is not that much evident... at least governments and car builders should stop ignoring nitrogen monoxides, this is the next big serious health public disaster linked to cars... hno:


----------



## Kanadzie

why get rid of the old cars?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

winnipeg said:


> If you are talking about nitrogen monoxides, this false, recent diesel cars are polluting more... hno:


While recent diesel cars do pollute more NOx than the Euro emission standards mandate, they are still cleaner than 20+ year old diesel cars. 

Diesel cars only meet NOx emission standards on dynamometers. Real-life usage emissions are several times higher. However, it should be noted Euro 3 norms allow over 6 times higher emission of NOx than Euro 6. So in reality, Euro 6 diesel cars in practice meet Euro 3/4 standards.

This is the same kind of fraud like CO2 emissions / fuel consumption which abuse the system by systematically reporting completely unattainable fuel economy, resulting in lower taxes.


----------



## winnipeg

ChrisZwolle said:


> While recent diesel cars do pollute more NOx than the Euro emission standards mandate, they are still cleaner than 20+ year old diesel cars.
> 
> Diesel cars only meet NOx emission standards on dynamometers. Real-life usage emissions are several times higher. However, it should be noted Euro 3 norms allow over 6 times higher emission of NOx than Euro 6. So in reality, Euro 6 diesel cars in practice meet Euro 3/4 standards.
> 
> This is the same kind of fraud like CO2 emissions / fuel consumption which abuse the system by systematically reporting completely unattainable fuel economy, resulting in lower taxes.


Exactly! hno:


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## ChrisZwolle

A stretch of A75 near Lodève has been damaged after more than 300 mm of rain fell within a few hours.


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## ChrisZwolle

A segment of voie express N79 opened to traffic on 23 June 2015 between Verosves en Col de Vaux. Another segment between Besson-Ouest and Chemilly will open to traffic in December 2015.

N79 is part of RCEA, an east-west expressway across central France. It is made up of several routes nationales.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A51 Viaduc de Monestier*

I took this panorama photo last week of the Viaduc de Monestier (A51) south of Grenoble.

It is 860 m long and 53 m high. It is only one carriageway due to the low traffic volume. It opened 21 March 2007.


Viaduc de Monestier by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*D937 Col du Festre*

Col du Festre (1441 m) northwest of Gap.


Col du Festre-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col du Festre-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col du Festre-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col du Festre-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col du Festre-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## sirfreelancealot

I was in France recently and one thing I noticed on the Autoroutes were the adverse camber of the carriageway that follows the outside of a curve. Say you're on a left curve the carriageway will fall away from the median to the right, which feels odd.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A segment of voie express N79 opened to traffic on 23 June 2015 between Verosves en Col de Vaux. Another segment between Besson-Ouest and Chemilly will open to traffic in December 2015.
> 
> N79 is part of RCEA, an east-west expressway across central France. It is made up of several routes nationales.


Chris, a general note: It would be great if you could specify a source. Thanks.

About the section opened in June: Do you have any info about the length of the section and the exact location?


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## ChrisZwolle

*A51 Monestier - Grenoble*

The northern segment of A51 is fairly short, but very interesting from a landscape point of view. Here's a northbound video I made last week from Monestier-de-Clermont into Grenoble.


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving from Lille (France) to Gent (Belgium) 18.08.2015 Timelapse x4


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Mont Ventoux*

One of the premier cycling destinations in Europe is Mont Ventoux. The mountain is accessible from two sides, both require a long climb, some stretches have average gradients over 10%. 

This a video of a typical drive across Mont Ventoux. I included only the 'lunar landscape' portion for scenery reasons. The lower and middle reaches of the mountain are forested.


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## ChrisZwolle

*D537 Lac du Sautet*

The D537 crosses a concrete arch bridge that spans the Drac River Gorge near the Sautet Dam. The bridge has a span of 85 meters and the bridge deck is 150 meters above the valley floor. The bridge was constructed between 1927 and 1928, before the dam was built (1930-1935).


Barrage du Sautet-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Barrage du Sautet-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Barrage du Sautet-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


Barrage du Sautet-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*A89-A6 link*

Construction on the A89-A6 link north of Lyon has started.



















Project website: http://www.a89-a6.fr/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A42 Pont d'Ain - Lyon*

Some photos of the entire 53 km length of autoroute A42 from Pont d'Ain to Lyon. This motorway was built in the 1980s.


A42-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-11 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-13 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-14 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-16 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-19 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-20 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-21 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-23 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-24 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-25 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-26 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-29 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-30 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-32 by European Roads, on Flickr


A42-34 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*E2*

I did not originally notice this, but a distance sign on A42 contains the number 'E2'. E2 does currently not exist, nor has it ever been assigned to this route. (the original 1950 E2 was canceled before the motorway was built).


A42-18 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## CNGL

This is actually E611, which doesn't contain any 2s!

Speaking of E-routes, I find silly the detour E21 has. It would be better routed on A39 and N5, even if it includes a non-motorway portion.


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## ukraroad

See Wiki on the subject of E-numeration


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving from Péronne to Lille (France) 17.08.2015 Timelapse x4


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A51 Monestier - Grenoble*

Some photos of Autoroute A51, the northern part from Monestier (Col du Fau) to Grenoble.

1. The first few kilometers of A51 have only two lanes.

A51-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. Autoroute du Trièves. These motorway name signs seem to be disappearing from the French motorways.

A51-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. The reason why this part has two lanes, the Viaduc de Monestier, a tall and long bridge across a valley.

A51-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. The Tunnel de Sinard. It is 950 meters long. There is apparently a full second tube, which acts as a safety tube as long as the second viaduct isn't constructed.

A51-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. The four lanes start just after the tunnel.

A51-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. A51 is pretty much one long descent into Grenoble. Col du Fau is at 899 m, Grenoble is at 200 m.

A51-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. The Vercors Mountains.

A51-9 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. A51 runs parallel to the Vercors. It is notable due to the fact that there are no roads crossing the main chain. There is a 50 km stretch of Vercors with no east-west roads.

A51-10 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. Grenoble is visible in the distance. It is considered the largest city located within the Alps. 

A51-12 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. The toll plaza. It is one of the few toll stations in France that I've seen that have the transponder lanes on the right. This one doesn't have a 30 km/h lane either.

A51-14 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. 

A51-15 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. Vif.

A51-17 by European Roads, on Flickr

13. 

A51-18 by European Roads, on Flickr

14. Claix. A51 transitions into A480 at this exit.

A51-19 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## CNGL

Too bad they abandoned the plans to close the gap between Gap (what a redundancy) and Col de Fau. As a result they should renumber the Northern A51 to A480.


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## sponge_bob

Only the French could give us a "Gap Gap"  .


----------



## Minato ku

An old news that I forgot top post it.
483 km of traffic jam were recorded in Paris area on Tuesday, October 2 at 9:02 am










http://www.leparisien.fr/transports/ile-de-france-record-de-483-km-de-bouchons-06-10-2015-5159679.php#xtref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.20minutes.fr%2Fparis%2F1703215-20151006-ile-france-record-kilometres-bouchons-etabli-mardi


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## Sesto Elemento

Brisavoine:



Brisavoine said:


> Google Street View is finally arriving in Overseas France, little by little.
> 
> Some spectacular views! :cheers:
> 
> https://www.google.fr/maps/place/No...2!3m1!1s0x6c27e2693f1a32cb:0xf6d0f68fd5937aec


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## ChrisZwolle

*D76, Combe Laval*

A very scenic road is _route départementale_ D76 in the Drôme department. It runs through the Combe Laval, a canyon. It is somewhat off-the-beaten-path, there were not a lot of tourists and the road is not used by a high volume of traffic. There are two scenic overlooks where you can park your car, at either end of the tunnel / gorge section.

As the plaque reads, the road was built by the water and forest administration between 1893 and 1896 and widened by the departmental government between 1938 and 1939. 


Combe Laval-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Combe Laval-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Combe Laval-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


Combe Laval-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


Combe Laval-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


Combe Laval-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


Combe Laval-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


Combe Laval-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


Combe Laval-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


Combe Laval-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*Cirque d'Archiane*

I made a little video of a scenic route into a canyon known as 'Cirque d'Archiane' east of Die. It's a dead-end road with very little traffic.


----------



## Minato ku

*529 km of traffic jam in Paris area, this morning at 9 a.m !!!*

http://www.rtl.fr/actu/societe-faits-divers/le-de-france-529-kilometres-de-bouchons-enregistres-un-record-historique-7780538535


----------



## jajaK

Minato ku said:


> *529 km of traffic jam in Paris area, this morning at 9 a.m !!!*
> 
> http://www.rtl.fr/actu/societe-faits-divers/le-de-france-529-kilometres-de-bouchons-enregistres-un-record-historique-7780538535


I recognized some words and after a translation I'm aware about the reason for traffic being the tragic events in Paris. How come this effects the traffic so much? My guess is that some people avoid mass transit, but could that lead to a recordbreaking jam?


----------



## sponge_bob

The Paris road network is prone to epic jams anyway and I think the section of A3 Autoroute De L'est from west of Eurodisney to its western terminus near where the tragic events happened was already the busiest motorway in Europe anyway with well north of 200k AADT.

Sadly, and separately from tragic events, there are no plans to improve the major network in the near future, EG finish the N104 orbital.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A86, Paris*

I made a video of the north/western part of A86 through the inner suburbs of Paris. It runs from the Duplex A86 tunnel to A1, through Nanterre, Colombes, Gennevilliers and Saint-Denis.

There is no direct A1-A86 interchange at Stade de France. An alternate link motorway was built through La Courneuve.


----------



## Kanadzie

jajaK said:


> I recognized some words and after a translation I'm aware about the reason for traffic being the tragic events in Paris. How come this effects the traffic so much? My guess is that some people avoid mass transit, but could that lead to a recordbreaking jam?


Sure, the situation is so bad that if you throw a few hundred cars, the jam counts a few hundred km more :lol:


----------



## winnipeg

jajaK said:


> I recognized some words and after a translation I'm aware about the reason for traffic being the tragic events in Paris. How come this effects the traffic so much? My guess is that some people avoid mass transit, but could that lead to a recordbreaking jam?


Because in this time people felt safetier in their own vehicules than in public transportation where the risk of attacks was high... hno:


----------



## jajaK

winnipeg said:


> Because in this time people felt safetier in their own vehicules than in public transportation where the risk of attacks was high... hno:


As I thought. Was it the same after the attack on Charlie Hebdo? It must be a terrifying ordeal for the citizens of the city, even if that particular event was partially aimed towards media.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*D177 Axe Rennes - Redon*

The Lohéac bypass (3 km) opened to traffic on 20 November. It is a 2x2 voie express.

http://www.ille-et-vilaine.fr/fr/actualite/axe-rennes-redon-deviation-loheac-inauguree


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*D531 Gorges de la Bourne*

The Gorges de la Bourne is a deep canyon located on the Isère-Drôme departmental border. Departmental road 531 (until 1972: RN 531) runs through it. It's quite spectacular, but relatively unkown, it was not crowded with tourists.


Gorges de la Bourne-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de la Bourne-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de la Bourne-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de la Bourne-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de la Bourne-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de la Bourne-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de la Bourne-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Lohéac bypass (3 km) opened to traffic on 120 November. It is a 2x2 voie express.
> 
> http://www.ille-et-vilaine.fr/fr/actualite/axe-rennes-redon-deviation-loheac-inauguree


----------



## mcarling

sponge_bob said:


> Sadly, and separately from tragic events, there are no plans to improve the major network in the near future, EG finish the N104 orbital.


Completing the N104 orbital should be a no-brainer, but I guess funds will be scarce with the massive cost of building the Metro du Grand Paris. I'm sure Line 15 alone will cost many times the cost of completing the N104.


----------



## ukraroad

Still metro renovation is more needed. N104 is I guess in plans too. But better build the underground


----------



## lionelseven03

where is the motorway project of the Allier department for the RCEA?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N7, Valence*

Some photos of N7 around the city of Valence. The N7 forms the eastern ring road, but the N532-N7 link is built for through traffic, traffic staying on N7 has to turn off.

1. 

N7 Valence-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

N7 Valence-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

N7 Valence-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

N7 Valence-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

N7 Valence-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

N7 Valence-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

N7 Valence-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. 

N7 Valence-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. 

N7 Valence-9 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. The Ardèche mountains in the background.

N7 Valence-10 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. 

N7 Valence-11 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. 

N7 Valence-12 by European Roads, on Flickr

13. 

N7 Valence-13 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A75 La Méridienne*

I filmed all 330 kilometers of A75 from Clermont-Ferrand to Béziers.

Here are the first three parts, from Clermont-Ferrand down to Marvejols.

Part I: Clermont-Ferrand - Massiac (km 0 - km 70).





Part II: Massiac - St. Flour (km 70 - km 105)





Part III: St. Flour - Marvejols (km 105 - km 160)


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A segment of voie express N79 opened to traffic on 23 June 2015 between Verosves en Col de Vaux. Another segment between Besson-Ouest and Chemilly will open to traffic in December 2015.


Is there any update info about the latter? According to GM and OSM, it seems that both carriageways are in service!? :?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ I have not seen any news report. Wikisara doesn't list an exact date.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A75 La Méridienne*

The last two videos of Autoroute 75 in southern France.











A75 is definitely the most entertaining way to the south. You can see how light the traffic is when I filmed this in early June (it was on a Sunday, which explains the lack of truck traffic).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> Is there any update info about the latter? According to GM and OSM, it seems that both carriageways are in service!? :?





ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ I have not seen any news report. Wikisara doesn't list an exact date.


It opens tomorrow: 18 December

http://www.rjfm.net/RJFM-info-Montlucon-l-actu-du,6370.html

_18 km de 2X2 voies ininterrompues entre Montmarault et Chemilly. Un nouveau tronçon de 5 km à 2X2 voies est inauguré demain sur la RCEA. Tronçon entre Bresnay et Chemilly, un peu avant l’agglomération moulinoise. Les travaux de doublement des voies avaient débuté en juillet 2013, montant total 13,8 millions d’euros. La vitesse restera limitée dans un 1er temps à 90KM /H en direction de Moulins, en direction de Montmarault elle sera autorisée à 110 km/h._

18 kilometers of uninterrupted 2x2 lanes between Montmarault and Chemilly. A new 2x2 segment of 5 kilometers will be inaugurated tomorrow, part of the RCEA. The segment is between Bresnay and Chemilly, just before the Moulin area. The works for twinning the road started in July 2013 and has cost € 13.8 million. The speed limit will be 90 km/h first towards Moulins, and then 110 km/h towards Montmarault.​


----------



## parcdesprinces

Penn's Woods said:


> I went to a lot of effort to memorize them.


81 ? (cheatinggle being of course not allowed)


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Demandez-en à un Albigeois.


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ :applause:


And what about this one popcorn:

984 ? (cheatinggle being of course not allowed)


----------



## parcdesprinces

ok, here is the answer, since this little quiz is a bit off-topic:
French Southern and Antarctic Lands. (which is not a département BTW, although it has a similar code/number as the overseas départements)

And that's even more off-topic knowing there's no roads down there AFAIK.


----------



## DSzumaher

The A 33 in 2 parts: overt and hidden as the N 4, and still signposted as the N 333). 





It's intriguing that Nancy fromwards Toul is accessible only via the A 31/A 33 interchange.





We have just the _Meurthe and Moselle_, and now the _Mosel_ only. (The departments no. 54 and 57, of course.)





Adieu. :goodbye:


----------



## MichiH

*N7 upgrade to voie express*

I think the following sections are currently u/c:

*N7:* Maison-Rouge – Saint-Pierre-le-Moutier-North 2.1km (? to September 2016) – ? – map

http://www.lejdc.fr/nievre/actualit...7-a-2x2-voies-ouvrira-en-avance_11746189.html
http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Axe_Nevers-Balbigny#Le_projet_en_d.C3.A9tail

*N7:* north of Villeneuve-sur-Allier – south of Villeneuve-sur-Allier ~7km (Late 2010 to 2017) – ? – map

http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Axe_Nevers-Balbigny#Le_projet_en_d.C3.A9tail
http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Évènements_à_venir_dans_les_routes_françaises#Voies_express_2

*N7:* Varennes-sur-Allier-North – south of Varennes-sur-Allier 4.8km (2009 to Fall 2016) – ? – map

http://www.lamontagne.fr/auvergne/a...-mis-en-service-a-lautomne-2016_11548511.html
http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Axe_Nevers-Balbigny#Le_projet_en_d.C3.A9tail


I'm not sure whether the 2km section south of Villeneuve-sur-Allier is u/c too (map)? :dunno:

Additional sections are planned to be upgraded in the coming years.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Varennes-sur-Allier:


----------



## MichiH

*N19 upgrade to voie express*

I think the following sections are currently u/c:

*N19:* Boissy-Saint-Leger-East – south of Boissy-Saint-Leger ~2km (March 2014 to 2018) – ? – map

http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Route_nationale_française_19#Futur


*N19:* Amblans – Lure-West 3km (Summer 2013 to >= 2016) – project – map

According to a press release from 2013, it is planned to be opened in 2016 but according to some pics published in September 2015, I guess that the completion is delayed. Does anyone have more info?


The construction works of an additional section are announced to begin in 2016:

*N19:* Port-sur-Saone-West – Charmoille 7.9km (2016 to 2020) – project – map

http://www.estrepublicain.fr/actual...-une-2x2-voies-pour-contourner-port-sur-saone
http://www.macommune.info/article/a...port-de-la-deviation-de-port-sur-saone-129250


----------



## winnipeg

MichiH said:


> I think the following sections are currently u/c:
> 
> *N19:* Amblans – Lure-West 3km (Summer 2013 to >= 2016) – project – map
> 
> According to a press release from 2013, it is planned to be opened in 2016 but according to some pics published in September 2015, I guess that the completion is delayed. Does anyone have more info?


Yes, this one is still under construction, and I haven't heard about any delays, for now it's still planned for an openning at the end of 2016...



MichiH said:


> The construction works of an additional section are announced to begin in 2016:
> 
> *N19:* Port-sur-Saone-West – Charmoille 7.9km (2016 to 2020) – project – map
> 
> http://www.estrepublicain.fr/actual...-une-2x2-voies-pour-contourner-port-sur-saone
> http://www.macommune.info/article/a...port-de-la-deviation-de-port-sur-saone-129250


About this one, it has been anounced when the president and prime minister came in Haute-Saône, but since this political announcement, it seems to be in hold (like many projects in France right now, because they want to cut spending)...

So wait&see...


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> ChrisZwolle said:
> 
> 
> 
> France:
> *N27*: Catteville - Arques-la-Bataille 7.7 km July 2012 - late 2015 / early 2016 - source - map
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks . Couldn't find Catteville there. The article from July 2012 says Manehouville. The estimated opening should be late 2016 according to _wikisara_.
> 
> *N27:* Arques-la-Bataille – Manehouville 7.7km (July 2012 to Late 2016) – ? – map
Click to expand...

The N27 extension was originally planned to be opened in July 2014 but it was delayed to late 2016. It's delayed to 2019 or 2020 now, see news article from 12th January 2016. I don't know what's exactly the cause of the delay.


----------



## MichiH

*More upgrades to voie express*

More upgrades of route nationales to voie express roads under construction:

*N57:* Breurey – Voray-sur-l'Ognon 4.8km (January 2015 to Late 2017) – ? – map
_*N57:* Rioz – Breurey 4.8km (2017? to Late 2019) – ? – map_

http://www.estrepublicain.fr/actualite/2015/01/28/rn-57-le-chantier-est-lance
http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Évènements_à_venir_dans_les_routes_françaises#Voies_express_2

The N57 upgrade is split into two sections. The southern one is u/c but I'm not sure if I got the news article right. Is Rioz – Breurey already u/c (since when?) or will works begin after 2017?
An additional 2x2 upgrade is planned (but not yet u/c) just 4km south of the Voray interchange, from Devecey to Valentin (A36), which was announced to be completed by 2018.


*N82:* Neulise – Balbigny 5.2km (2014 to 2019) – ? – map

http://sarainfr.odns.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=406&start=2060#p264983
http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Évènements_à_venir_dans_les_routes_françaises#Voies_express_2


*N124:* Aubiet-East – Gimont-East 11.5km (January 2015 to 2017) – ? – map

http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Route_nationale_française_124#Futur
http://www.sudouest.fr/2015/02/17/le-calendrier-de-la-deviation-se-precise-1832596-2399.php
http://www.franckmontauge.fr/rn124-la-deviation-degimont-en-chantier/


*N164:* east of Saint-Meen-le-Grand – Montauban-de-Bretagne (N12) 5.4km (January 2014 to Late 2016) – project – map


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The southwestern bypass of Vichy will reportedly open to traffic tomorrow. Together with A719 it has a very circuitous route.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A355, Strasbourg*

The concession agreement has been signed to construct the A355, which will form a 24 kilometer new motorway bypass of Strasbourg, west of the city. It will be a 2x2 motorway that will run from the A4-A35 interchange near Vendenheim to the A35/A352 interchange near Duppigheim. 

Autoroute du Contournement Ouest de Strasbourg (ACOS) will finance, build and operate the motorway. It has been given a long concession of 54 years (ending January, 2070). The deadline for opening is 56 months from the signing of the concession. Which means it will open to traffic on 29 September 2020 at the latest. 

The toll rate is set at € 0.1305 per kilometer for passenger cars, at June 2015 price levels. That amounts to approximately € 3.10 for the entire motorway.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Is there a project page with layout plan etc.? Is there any estimated date for start of construction?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A85 Angers - Tours - Vierzon*

The A85 was built in stages and opened to traffic between 1997 and 2007 from Angers to Vierzon. Due to cost and relatively low traffic volumes, several bridges across rivers were built with only one lane each way. They will start to duplicate these bridges between 2016 and 2019. The first construction will likely start in July. The cost is € 120 million.


A85-29 by European Roads, on Flickr


A85-32 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## MichiH

^^ Thanks. Do you know when which section will be built? Or any source where I can find additional info?


----------



## MichiH

*A355, Strasbourg*



ChrisZwolle said:


> The concession agreement has been signed to construct the A355, which will form a 24 kilometer new motorway bypass of Strasbourg, west of the city. It will be a 2x2 motorway that will run from the A4-A35 interchange near Vendenheim to the A35/A352 interchange near Duppigheim.
> 
> Autoroute du Contournement Ouest de Strasbourg (ACOS) will finance, build and operate the motorway. It has been given a long concession of 54 years (ending January, 2070). The deadline for opening is 56 months from the signing of the concession. Which means it will open to traffic on 29 September 2020 at the latest.
> 
> The toll rate is set at € 0.1305 per kilometer for passenger cars, at June 2015 price levels. That amounts to approximately € 3.10 for the entire motorway.


http://www.dna.fr/actualite/2015/10/20/gco-arcos-et-vinci-concessions



> Nous nous réjouissons que les travaux puissent démarrer dès la fin 2017.
> 
> Google translated:
> We are delighted that *work can start as early as the end of 2017*.


_*A355:* Vendenheim (A4/A35) – Duppigheim (A35/A352) 24km (Late 2017 to September 2020) – ? – map_


----------



## Luki_SL

^^The other map : 









From : http://www.dna.fr/economie/2015/10/21/vinci-bis-repetita


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*D924 Axe Argentan - Flers*

Construction began this month on a 4 kilometer segment of expressway from Sainte-Opportune to Landigou, where it will tie into the existing four-lane expressway to Flers. It is planned to be completed by 2017.

http://www.normandie-actu.fr/infogr...re-flers-et-argentan-avance-pas-a-pas_179054/

En février 2016, le Conseil départemental a annoncé le début des travaux d’aménagement de la route Départementale 924 entre Landigou et Sainte-Opportune (en prolongement de la section Flers-Landigou), soit 4 km. Des déviations locales seront mises en place. La fin des travaux, pour cette portion, est prévue pour 2017.​


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A31 Lorraine*

French media report that the government has approved a plan to expand A31 to 2x3 lanes and turn part of it into a toll road from Toul to the Luxembourg border.










http://tout-metz.com/annonce-autoroute-a31-bis-peage-gye-luxembourg-2016-8709.php


----------



## brick84




----------



## xrtn2

^^:cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's another busy weekend in the Alps. This will be a common sight:


----------



## General Maximus

Today has been dubbed as the Black Saturday in winter. Apart from parts of Holland and Germany being on half term, the French have come out in forces as well.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Réunion*

N1 / Route du Littoral on Réunion after heavy rainfall.


----------



## Minato ku

^^ This explains why they are building the new road along the coast.









About Reunion island


Brisavoine said:


> Google Street View has finally arrived in La Réunion !!! :banana: :master:
> 
> It's the first overseas region of France covered by Google Street View, after the locals complained for years about not being included in the French coverage of Google Street View.
> 
> Here are a few screen captures I've made during my little exploration. It's absolutely fascinating. Europe in the tropics. The Réunionese complain all the time (like all French people), but after looking at the top-notch infrastructure they have, one has to wonder how they can whine so much. What I've seen is paradise compared to the rest of Africa or even compared to neighboring Mauritius. Spoiled people really.
> 
> It's also crazy how the urbanization goes up and up and up, never seeming to end. The climate way up there at 1,500 meters above sea-level must be absolutely lovely. Quite different from the coast.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Drôme*

I made a video of D93 (former RN93) in the scenic Drôme River Valley, from Crest to Die. There are some nice wide open views of the mountains.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N57 Besançon*

Construction begins Monday on a stretch of N57 voie express north of Besançon. The first € 35 million phase will widen N57 to a four-lane expressway from the high-speed rail station near Auxon-Dessus to the existing expressway at A36. This is planned to be completed in 2019.

http://www.estrepublicain.fr/editio...rn-57-au-nord-de-besancon-c-est-(enfin)-parti

A separate phase is the construction of a new expressway from Devecey to Auxon-Dessus.

Schedule:


----------



## Minato ku

6-lane motorway in La Réunion. Probably the only 6-lane motorway in overseas France.


----------



## verreme

^^ AFAIK A1 in Martinique has a 2x3 stretch.


----------



## CNGL

If it doesn't have an A designation, then it's not an _autoroute_. The only overseas _autoroute_ is A1 in Martinique.


----------



## verreme

^^ He said "motorway", not _autoroute_. A motorway is a term generally used to define a grade-separated, dual-carriageway road restricted to motor traffic. Which is what that expressway in Réunion island is.


----------



## sotonsi

verreme said:


> A motorway is a term generally used to define a grade-separated, dual-carriageway road restricted to motor traffic.


Is it? Asking as a native English speaker...

How wide are the Expressways in New Caledonia? Other than the A1 in Martinique, they are the only routes specifically numbered as some form of grade-separated dual-carriageway restricted to motor traffic.


----------



## verreme

^^ AFAIK Nouméa has several _voie express_, some of them tolled. Guadeloupe has also an expressway, which has (very short) 2x3 stretches.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A507, Marseille*

The long-awaited A507 (also known as 'L2') in Marseille will open to traffic in July. It's a 5.2 km segment through eastern Marseille, this segment runs from A50 at Florian to Frais Vallon. 

It will indirectly link A50 and A7, though the east-west segment is not entirely grade-separated, there are two roundabouts and the interchange with A7 is not free-flow.

This is the slowest road project in France. They started construction on this segment in 1994, so it has taken 22 years to complete it.

http://www.lamarseillaise.fr/marsei...uverture-attendue-dans-quatre-mois-pour-la-l2


----------



## verreme

^^ The stretch linking it with A7 will open next year, so the connection between A50 and A7 will be entirely free-flowing. That means Marseille will have a motorway-standard bypass after *80 years* of planning


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm guessing the toll tunnels under the city center will face a significant loss of revenue with the free A507 opening to traffic. 

Traffic can also use D4C (Viaduc de Plombières) to reach A7 from A507, but that viaduct has only one lane in each direction. According to Wikisara the two-lane viaduct carried 85,000 vehicles per day, but that seems unrealistic. Even half that would be severely stretching the limits of a two-lane road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Marseille*

This was once planned:









They actually preserved a right-of-way for the 'Autoroute Blancarde - Aubagne'. It was partially used for an urban arterial and tramway in 2007.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Too few exits.


----------



## MichiH

verreme said:


> ^^ The stretch linking it with A7 will open next year, so the connection between A50 and A7 will be entirely free-flowing. That means Marseille will have a motorway-standard bypass after *80 years* of planning


That's reported by wikisara too. A PPP contract was signed in 2013 and the section will be commissioned in late 2017. It's marked green (in planning stage) on the map though.

Do you know when construction works began on this section?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A45 Lyon - St. Étienne*

The long-planned A45 gets closer to construction. It has been announced that Vinci is the preferred bidder for the construction of A45, a 47 kilometer new toll motorway that extends from existing A450 at Brignais to N88 southwest of St. Étienne. 

The new toll road will run parallel to A47 and N88, which are four to six lane motorways / expressways. The A47 is substandard at times and runs through many cities. 

The concession could be awarded in late 2016, and construction could start in 2018, with a completion in 2022. It will be a 55 year concession.

Someone devised this Michelin map of future A45. It is the northern route.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A304 Charleville-Mézières - Rocroi*

The A304 under construction in northern France. This new motorway will run from Charleville-Mézières to Rocroi at the Belgian border. It's part of an upgraded route from Reims to Charleroi.

Construction started in 2011 and runs fairly slow. The opening is planned in 2017.

The entire route (31 kilometers)









A34-A304 interchange near Charleville-Mézières.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A10 Tours - Poitiers*

Some major expansion work is planned for A10. Vinci Autoroutes will get an extension of its concession from 2031 to 2034, in return, they will run a € 565 million investment programme in the area.

The largest expansion will include the widening of 93 kilometers of A10 from Tours to Poitiers from 2x2 to 2x3 lanes. It is also planned to expand the A10 through the city of Tours from 2x3 to 2x4 lanes. In addition, the single-lane viaducts of A85 between Tours and Vierzon will be expanded to four lanes.

Environmental assessment has commenced and will be put to public comment in September. A Public Utility Declaration (DUP) is expected by 2018 and the first widened part of A10 will be in service by 2023, from Veigné near Tours to Sainte-Maure-de-Touraine.

A short section of A10 from Chambray-lès-Tours to A85 is already under construction for 2x3 lanes.

http://www.constructioncayola.com/i.../105651/a10-elargit-entre-veigne-poitiers.php

A map of the section to be widened to 2x3 lanes:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*D9, Bouches-du-Rhône*

The missing segment of 2x2 voie express of D9 between Marignane and Aix-en-Provence is now under construction, Google Earth imagery dated 30 October 2015 shows.


----------



## MichiH

^^ It seems that the section - from Calas to Gare d'Aix-en-Provence-TGV-Est (exit 5 to 8) - is announced to be completed by 2017, http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Route_départementale_française_D9_(13)#Historique_2.


----------



## Suburbanist

Marseille needs a northern freeway bypass


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N164*

Construction started on the excavation works of voie express N164 from N12 to Saint-Méen-le-Grand (west of Rennes). It is the second and last phase. A completion date is not mentioned, I suppose it could be completed by late 2017 or sometime 2018.

http://www.constructioncayola.com/t...164-les-travaux-terrassement-vont-debuter.php

Project website: http://www.bretagne.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/article.php3?id_article=843


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> Marseille needs a northern freeway bypass


Rocade L2 will be fully open to traffic by 2017.


----------



## 1772

Not sure if I've asked about this earlier but I'll give it a try:

Has there ever been or is there talk about building a tunnel between eastern Monaco and the Roquebrune exit on the A8? 

Most traffic to and from Monaco is from the west to Nice; thats why there is a big tunnel under the mountain to Cap d'Ail (which is beeing extended), which is perfectly normal. 

But if you go to or from Monaco to Menton or Italy, you have to go on the small roads up to the A8 exit. 
Granted, the geography is more step here; but surely they could build a tunnel from the eastern end of Monaco from Boulevard d'Italie and Boulevard du Larvotto, under the western part of the Country Club (where the tennis is), up the mountain and adjoin the D51/Avenue Agerbol and the exit of the A8. 

The tunnel in the mountain would perhaps need to do a extra circle or something, but all in all, it's a pretty short distance. 
Especially compared to the tunnel west of Cap d'Ail. 

Here's a little scetch so you understand what I mean.


----------



## Cyril

The height difference would be huge. I can't see how a straight linear road could join both places. It would at least require a loop imo.


----------



## 1772

Yes, I realized that after I uploaded the picture. 
A loop inside the mountain.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Flooding has affected parts of France. A10 near Orléans was closed after flooding. The city of Nemours is being evacuated.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A10 in the Orléans region.


----------



## verreme

Some videos of motorways in Région Midi-Pyrénées-Languedoc-Roussillon (_seriously?_) from an April 2016 roadtrip:





















Video #3 features (well, sort of: you see it from a roundabout) France's shortest motorway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Montpellier*

The new A9 around Montpellier is ahead of schedule, with an opening planned for June 2017, six months ahead of schedule. 

The project consists of a new route that bypasses the city of Montpellier, as well as the expansion of the existing autoroute north and south of Montpellier, plus the relocation of the toll plazas.

http://www.constructioncayola.com/i...lier-chantier-a9-passe-vitesse-superieure.php


----------



## verreme

^^ This, plus the widening between Le Boulou and Perpignan, means a free-flowing, 2x3 ride between the Spanish border and Nîmes :cheers:. In fact, the first toll gate can be as far as in Lyon.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The first stage of a new link between French A30 and the Luxembourg city of Esch-sur-Alzette opened to traffic today. It's the western part from Tiercelet to Micheville, indicated in *green* on the map below. It's a circuitous two-lane road. The eastern part, indicated in *red* will open in the fall.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N164, Bretagne*

The current status of the N164 expressway (161 km) across central Bretagne / Brittany in western France.










Under the original 1968 Plan routier Breton (Brittany Road Plan), N164 was planned as a three-lane road. It was later upgraded to a four-lane expressway. It's the only part of the 1968 plan that is not yet completed. The first grade-separated four-lane segment did not open until 1990. So far the four-lane segments are very fragmented.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> The first stage of a new link between French A30 and the Luxembourg city of Esch-sur-Alzette opened to traffic today. It's the western part from Tiercelet to Micheville, indicated in *green* on the map below. It's a circuitous two-lane road. The eastern part, indicated in *red* will open in the fall.


Wow.

I wonder if such zigzag makes actual sense except for dodging NIMBYs. Such Frankenstein-like roads are increasingly common in France. Vichy's Contournement Sud-Ouest, Montpellier's LIEN or the new bypass of La-Fare-les-Oliviers (D10) are fine examples of these detours. Makes you wonder if a new road made sense at all.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N85 La Mure*

The La Mure bypass opened to traffic on 8 June. La Mure is located in the French Alps, in Isère Department. The construction cost was € 9.5 million.

This was one of the last towns of significance to be bypassed between Grenoble and Gap. N85 still goes through the village of Corps.


----------



## Bender

The legend says it's a "réaménagement des voies existantes" so a modification/upgrade of existing roads.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes it's partially a reconstruction of existing roads, and partially a new road that links both segments, to form a functional bypass of La Mure.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A507 / L2 Marseille*

The A507 (L2) opening in Marseille appears to have been pushed back to late August or early September, which is 1-2 months later than what was said earlier this year. The delivery date is 7 July, but commissioning may have to wait a while for safety inspections and perhaps a big fire drill.

http://www.laprovence.com/article/edition-marseille/4011349/l2-pourquoi-il-faut-encore-attendre.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Perpignan - Le Boulou*

Vinci Autoroutes quote on Twitter:

_Le chantier d'élargissement de la section Perpignan Sud - Le Boulou (15 km) s'est achevé avec 6 mois d’avance._

The widening works for the section from Perpignan-Sud to Le Boulou (15 km) are completed six months ahead of schedule.

This segment of A9 has been widened to 2x3 lanes. There are now six lanes across the Mediterranean plain from Nîmes all the way to Le Boulou, which is the last exit before the border with Spain. In fact there are three uphill lanes south of Le Boulou as well, so southbound traffic has only a few kilometers of two lanes.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*D177 Axe Rennes - Redon*

An overview of the D177 voie express from Rennes to Redon in Western France.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A507 (L2) opening in Marseille appears to have been pushed back to late August or early September, which is 1-2 months later than what was said earlier this year. The delivery date is 7 July, but commissioning may have to wait a while for safety inspections and perhaps a big fire drill.
> 
> http://www.laprovence.com/article/edition-marseille/4011349/l2-pourquoi-il-faut-encore-attendre.html


The French government has not accepted the delivery of L2 (A507) today. It wasn't up to safety standards, with 352 issues that are unsatisfactory, some of which are severe.

It is not yet known if this will delay the opening further. Construction on the Marseille bypass started in 1994 but funding was allocated in small blocks resulting in very slow progress. It was delayed even further in 1999 after the Mont-Blanc Tunnel fire which required an overhaul of the safety standards for tunnels. The project was expedited in 2013 as a PPP project and has been constructed quickly since. It won't be a toll road. 

https://marsactu.fr/bref/coup-darret-l2-rocade-nest-aux-normes-de-securite/


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## Orilla

ChrisZwolle said:


> The La Mure bypass opened to traffic on 8 June. La Mure is located in the French Alps, in Isère Department. The construction cost was € 9.5 million.
> 
> *This was one of the last towns of significance to be bypassed between Grenoble and Gap.* N85 still goes through the village of Corps.


There is still Gap where the bypass is actually "On Hold": some problems with Turrelet Bridge's concrete.
Sorry but i didn't keep the newspaper. :x


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## verreme

In these times of car-free cities and bans on "dirty" classic cars, the nightmares of French mayors are fueled by expressways like Nice's Voie Pierre Mathis 






The fun starts at 2:55.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A10, Tours*

I was browsing through my footage from 2015 and found out I had filmed A10 through Tours. I totally forgot about it.

A10 through Tours has surprisingly few exits for an untolled urban motorway in France. Though you can basically only drive the river crossings untolled.

Traffic was very light when I filmed this on a Sunday in June. Traffic can be quite intense, there are plans to widen A10 through Tours to 2x4 lanes.


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## sotonsi

^^ what's happened to the bypass plans?


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## ChrisZwolle

I'm not aware of a bypass plan for Tours. Given the fact that they're currently widening A10 in southern Tours to six lanes, and plans for a future widening to eight lanes, any bypass plans seem to be off the table.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Réunion*

June 2016 imagery shows the new N1 'Route du Littoral' under construction on Réunion island in the Indian Ocean. It's a € 1.6 billion project. It's planned for completion in 2018, but most of the route is not yet under construction, to me a 2018 opening seems unlikely, given the fact that they want to built 5.4 kilometers of bridges and 3.6 kilometers of causeway.

These are the segments under construction;

1. The La Possession approach on the west side of Réunion.









2. A segment under construction halfway.









3. The Saint-Dénis approach on the east side of the project.


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## ChrisZwolle

Intensified border checks have been introduced at the France-Spain border south of Perpignan, resulting in a 30 kilometer traffic jam on A9. According to TomTom, the delay is more than 4 hours.










_L 'A9 est totalement saturée dans sa partie sud, entre Perpignan et la frontière espagnole, à cause du contrôle aux frontières. 

Les contrôles à la frontière ont été renforcés et occasionnent un bouchon monstre de 30 km._

It appears that they have only 2 out of 18 toll gates operational, with police checks at those 2 gates. No wonder it creates a humongous traffic jam.


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## ChrisZwolle

More misery on A9 near the Spanish border, the autoroute has been closed in both directions south of the Le Boulou toll gate due to a wildfire. The delays are over 2 hours in both directions.


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## verreme

^^ I wonder if all those people know that there are _other_ roads to cross the border without all this trouble. The whole issue is a bit ridiculous. I mean, if I was a terrorist escaping from France the last thing that would go through my mind would be to cross the border on the motorway. I had to drive from Barcelona to Toulouse the day after the attacks in Brussels. 2h+ queues were reported in AP-7; I crossed via Puigcerdà (N-152/N20) and just drove through. I could probably have done it on N-260/D914, too. Okay, these routes imply detours, but is it worth it to wait 2h under the July sun just to stay on your route? 

GPS devices are supposed to make our lives easier yet they're turning us into complete idiots. I wonder what will happen when self-driving cars are the norm. Will they also behave like brainless sheep?


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## ChrisZwolle

I think many people use a GPS without a live traffic feed. Then it will choose the fastest route - assuming no congestion. Another factor is that traffic information tends to underestimate the delay with stationary traffic.

Google Maps is known to extremely underestimate delays at long routes. For example last Saturday a 700 kilometer route plotted in Google Maps from Frankfurt to Italy stated a delay of only 40 minutes (including the Gotthard Tunnel!), while at closer examination, the combined delays were 3-4 hours.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Montpellier*

Plans to build a western bypass of Montpellier to link A750 with A9 (future A709) appear to have resurfaced. It has been reported that it could be built between 2020 and 2025. 

Montpellier lacks a decent network of expressways. The metropolitan road network is incoherent and of lower standard (many roundabouts).

Project website: www.contournement-ouest-montpellier.fr


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## belerophon

ChrisZwolle said:


> Plans to build a western bypass of Montpellier to link A750 with A9 (future A709) appear to have resurfaced. It has been reported that it could be built between 2020 and 2025.
> 
> Montpellier lacks a decent network of expressways. The metropolitan road network is incoherent and of lower standard (many roundabouts).
> 
> Project website: www.contournement-ouest-montpellier.fr


Well if they do it this way they cause a new problem with a expressway close to the city itself, whilst they deplace the motorway in the south. It should be done better if done at all. The piece of N109 between end of Motorway and the beginn of the new track would be a new bottleneck. The new motorway should be replace it. Maybe even west of St. Georges and Laverune if this is possible by topography... And this quarter should only be a start for a ring road...


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## ChrisZwolle

I think it will mainly serve regional traffic in the Montpellier area, there isn't a lot of through traffic, for example from Marseille to Clermont-Ferrand, A7-A47-A72-A89 is 25 kilometers shorter than A75, even with the route via St. Étienne being far from a straight line.


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## ChrisZwolle

A7 is shut down in both directions between Montélimar and Orange due to an incident in an F1 Hotel in Bollène. A guest has holed himself up in the hotel and threatened with an explosive device. They have evacuated a 250 meter radius and the autoroute is closed to all traffic.

Traffic is being detoured via N7, which leads to intense traffic congestion. Truck traffic is being queued / stacked on A7 until the incident is resolved. FranceBleu calls the measure 'unprecedented'.

https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/fai...n-forcene-dans-un-hotel-de-bollene-1468937608


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## Fane40

italystf said:


> I think Bordeaux ringroad is too large to be made one-way. This arrangement may only work for small inner city ringroads (1-2 km in diameter), like in Charleroi or Treviso, where driving 3/4 of the circle instead of 1/4 isn't a big detour.



The Bx ringroad is 45 km.
I don't imagine a roundabout of this length with 6 lanes.
But, does anybody know where in the world is the longest roundabout ?


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## italystf

Fane40 said:


> The Bx ringroad is 45 km.
> I don't imagine a roundabout of this length with 6 lanes.
> But, does anybody know where in the world is the longest roundabout ?


Maybe Petite Ceinture (R9-E420) in Charleroi (5.1km)?
https://www.google.it/maps/dir/50.4...8/@50.4059793,4.4387555,16z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0


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## Fane40

italystf said:


> Maybe Petite Ceinture (R9-E420) in Charleroi (5.1km)?
> https://www.google.it/maps/dir/50.4...8/@50.4059793,4.4387555,16z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0



Thank you.
But I would rather have imagined that in a country with high density like Japan or in the USA.


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## italystf

Fane40 said:


> Thank you.
> But I would rather have imagined that in a country with high density like Japan or in the USA.


I wrote maybe, so I'm not sure. There may be a longer one in USA, Japan, or somewhere else that I don't know.


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## ChrisZwolle

Nagoya, Japan has a 'roundabout expressway' around the city center.


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## Fane40

italystf said:


> I wrote maybe, so I'm not sure. There may be a longer one in USA, Japan, or somewhere else that I don't know.


Yes, I noted the word "maybe"


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## Fane40

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nagoya, Japan has a 'roundabout expressway' around the city center.



Do you know the length ?


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> A problem arises with that, it would increase traffic on nearby city streets that wants to travel against the direction of the 'roundabout', and through traffic from A62 to A63 for example would need to take a huge detour to get around Bordeaux.


Well that's no problem for today's French politicians, they might as well close these city streets because some pollution/safety/health/whatever concerns.

I'm sincerely waiting for the moment when some flamboyant French major decides to close his or her entire city to automobiles declaring it to be the world's greenest, healthiest and cleanest city, and the subsequent chaos results in that major not being reelected. It will happen sooner or later.


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## Rebasepoiss

Fane40 said:


> Do you know the length ?


Roughly 10 km.


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## Fane40

Rebasepoiss said:


> Roughly 10 km.


Thanks


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## Bender

verreme said:


> I'm sincerely waiting for the moment when some flamboyant French major decides to close his or her entire city to automobiles declaring it to be the world's greenest, healthiest and cleanest city, and the subsequent chaos results in that major not being reelected. It will happen sooner or later.


No matter how stupid, if it can be done they will do it. And they'll do it even if it can't be done.


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## italystf

verreme said:


> Well that's no problem for today's French politicians, they might as well close these city streets because some pollution/safety/health/whatever concerns.
> 
> I'm sincerely waiting for the moment when some flamboyant French major decides to close his or her entire city to automobiles declaring it to be the world's greenest, healthiest and cleanest city, and the subsequent chaos results in that major not being reelected. It will happen sooner or later.


There was someone advocating the permanent closure of the Boulevard périphérique.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N19 Port-sur-Saône*

Construction started Tuesday on a 7.9 kilometer segment of 2x2 voie express of N19 around Port-sur-Saône. This expressway will connect to the existing expressway west of Vesoul. It is planned to be completed by late 2020.

http://www.lapressedevesoul.com/actualite-21137-lancement-la-deviation-port-sur-saone.html


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## ChrisZwolle

*A20 Limoges - Brive*

A20 between Limoges and Brive-la-Gaillarde.

1. Magnac-Bourg.

A20-78 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. Toulouse is still a good 2.5 hours away.

A20-79 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. Saint-Germain-les-Belles.

A20-80 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. Masseret.

A20-82 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. Uzerche, the largest 'city' between Limoges and Brive.

A20-85 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. The green signs are very helpful to locate routes to major destinations. Otherwise it kind of falls within the load of white signs to villages.

A20-88 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

A20-89 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. The first A89 interchange.

A20-90 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. 

A20-91 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. Lyon and Clermont-Ferrand.

A20-93 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. Donzenac.

A20-95 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. Allassac. There is a long descent into the Corrèze River Valley.

A20-97 by European Roads, on Flickr

13. Ussac, and the east side of Brive. They built a bypass of Brive some 8 years ago.

A20-99 by European Roads, on Flickr

14. The second A89 interchange, to Bordeaux.

A20-101 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*N7 Varennes*

The first stage of the bypass of Varennes-sur-Allier (N7) will open to traffic in Mid-December. It is 4.8 km long. Construction started in 2009, so progress is very slow.

It runs from D46 to N209, so it won't directly connect to N7 on either end, and will neither bypass the entire built-up area of Varennes.

Presently traffic through Varennes runs through two one-way streets, at times narrow and curvy. It is considered the most urgent part of the N7 from Moulins to Vichy / Roanne.

http://www.lamontagne.fr/auvergne/a...-contournement-a-la-mi-decembre_12076830.html


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## ChrisZwolle

*A8 Nice - Menton*

The new Tunnel de la Borne Romaine on A8 east of Nice opens to traffic on 18 October 5 a.m. 

It is a 755 meter long three-lane tunnel for eastbound traffic that bypasses a hillside prone to rockslides. 

Construction took 3 years and has cost € 60 million. It is 5 m high, 12 m wide and 755 m long.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A85 was built in stages and opened to traffic between 1997 and 2007 from Angers to Vierzon. Due to cost and relatively low traffic volumes, several bridges across rivers were built with only one lane each way. They will start to duplicate these bridges between 2016 and 2019. The first *construction will likely start in July*. The cost is € 120 million.


I drove there in early October but there were no construction works for new bridges. I just saw renovation works west of the easternmost A85 viaduct to be widened.




MichiH said:


> *N19:* Amblans – Lure-West 3km (Summer 2013 to Late 2016) – project – map


According to _wikisara_, the section is expected to be opened in spring 2017.



MichiH said:


> *N141:* La Vigerie – Saint-Yrieix 5.5km (? to Late 2016) – ? – map


Scheduled commissioning in 2017 according to _wikisara_.


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## MichiH

*N2 upgrade*

According to _wikisara_, two N2 sections should be upgraded to expressway standard by 2019. I saw construction works east of Lévignen (map) when I drove there 2 weeks ago. On the 2nd section, east of Villers-Cotterêts (I think it was here: map), I've only seen a big signpost but no works in progress. Does anyone have more info about these sections (when works have been started or are expected to be started, section lengths et cetera), for instance a project page link?


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## ChrisZwolle

*A20 Brive - Cahors*

Some photos of A20 from Brive to Cahors, on a gloomy August day. Surprisingly the temperature here was 15°C lower than in Northern France the day before.

1. Brive-Centre.

A20-104 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. Brive-Ouest, old E70 sign.

A20-106 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

A20-108 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

A20-109 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. The last exit before the toll.

A20-111 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. The pavement instantly becomes the best you could possibly wish for on the toll road. 

A20-112 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. Rocamadour.

A20-114 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. The toll station. It seemed rather small for peak summer traffic.

A20-116 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. The terrain becomes more hilly, characteristic of the Dordogne. It's not as spectacular as the Cévennes or Ardèche though. 

A20-118 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. Souillac.

A20-120 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. 

A20-121 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. Viaduc de la Dordogne. Possibly the largest viaduct on A20.

A20-122 by European Roads, on Flickr

13. 

A20-124 by European Roads, on Flickr

14. Cahors-Centre.

A20-127 by European Roads, on Flickr

15. Toulouse still an hour away.

A20-128 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*N79 Montmarault - Moulins*

Some photos of N79, a major east-west route part of the RCEA - _Route Centre-Europe Atlantique_.

The RCEA concept:









The plan is to upgrade all RCEA routes to a 2x2 voie express. Most of it are routes nationales.

N79 runs from Montmarault to Mâcon. It is mostly a two-lane road, with some segments with 2x2 lanes. However, there is only one longer stretch of 2x2 west of Digoin.

N79 is loaded with truck traffic, which travels in convoys. There appeared to be more trucks than cars.

1. Most of N79 is a two-lane road with a double solid line. Prepare to set the cruise control to 90 km/h and wait until a passing lane appears (which are rare, there is one 18 km 2x2 segment).

N79-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. N79 doesn't have a lot of interchanges. This area is relatively sparsely populated.

N79-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. N79 runs to Mâcon.

N79-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

N79-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

N79-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

N79-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. There is an 18 km segment with 2x2 lanes in the area around Cressanges. Otherwise most of the western part of N79 has 1x2 lanes, with only a few brief passing lanes.

N79-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. 

N79-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. The D2009 interchange, whichs forms a north-south route west of the Allier River.

N79-10 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. The N7 interchange, which forms a north-south route east of the Allier River.

N79-11 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. N7 to the south.

N79-12 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. N7 to the north.

N79-13 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*N79 Moulins - Paray-le-Monial*

Further down the road on N79 from Moulins to Paray-le-Monial.

1. N79 is mostly a two-lane road east of Moulins, 2x2 lanes don't start until Digoin.

N79-14 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. There are some short divided stretches of highway.

N79-15 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. This bridge is built for 2x2 lanes.

N79-18 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. Trucks dominate on N79. Even if passing was allowed, you'd be stuck behind the next truck all the time.

N79-19 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. The weather cleared going east.

N79-21 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

N79-22 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. Autun / Roanne.

N79-23 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. Paray-le-Monial-Sud.

N79-25 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. 

N79-26 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. Paray-le-Monial-centre.

N79-27 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. The N70-N79 interchange.

N79-28 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. 

N79-30 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*A507 / L2 Marseille*

They are now reporting an opening date of A507 / L2 in Marseille before the end of the month: http://www.20minutes.fr/marseille/1960459-20161113-marseille-bientot-bout-tunnel-rocade-l2

There were 350 issues with the new autoroute that were identified since the consortium handed the motorway over to the state. Not all of these are major issues, it's not uncommon to have completed tunnels with issues remaining to be done, and some of that can be completed after it is open to traffic.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A13 Paris - Caen*

Exit 24 (Maison Brûlée) of A13 has been modified. The offramp from Paris used to exit earlier than the other ramps. The ramp has been moved to the rest of the ramps, making it a regular diamond interchanges. The project has cost € 8 million, the ramp was put into service in October and was officially inaugurated today.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A630 Bordeaux*

A widening of A630 on the west side of Bordeaux was completed this morning. The segment from exit 10 (Mérignac) to exit 12 (St. Jean-d'Illac), is now equipped with 3 lanes in each direction.


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## ChrisZwolle

*D948, Vendée*

A new stretch of voie express opened to traffic yesterday in the Vendée department, between Challans and Saint-Christophe-du-Ligneron.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A660 Arcachon*

Some photos of A660, a short spur autoroute from A63 to the Arcachon Basin, an urbanized and tourist area around the Arcachon Bay, in southwestern France. 

1. On northbound A63.

A660-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. The A63-A660 interchange.

A660-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

A660-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

A660-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

A660-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. Dune de Pyla. Better known as Dune du Pilat.

A660-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. Le Teich.

A660-10 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. The autoroute ends at a roundabout.

A660-11 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. Dune du Pilat.

A660-12 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. A660 narrows to a single lane before the roundabout, presumable to raise awareness of the upcoming roundabout, but it's a bottleneck on nice summer days.

A660-14 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. There are then two lanes again approaching the roundabout (I turned around here).

A660-15 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. The roundabout.

A660-16 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*A507 / L2 Marseille*

The 5.2 km segment of six lane A507 (also known as L2) in Marseille will now finally open tomorrow morning, 29 November at 6 a.m.

http://www.maritima.info/depeches/i...ouverture-de-la-l2-est-demain-matin-a-6h.html


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## ChrisZwolle

*A507 Marseille*



ChrisZwolle said:


> *29 November 2016*
> 
> The A507, also known as 'L2' opened to traffic this morning in Marseille, France. It is a 5.2 kilometer segment of six lane untolled urban autoroute that forms the eastern bypass of the city. It has several tunnels.
> 
> Construction already started in 1994, but only limited funding was appropriated each year, with very slow progress. The 1999 Mont Blanc Tunnel fire complicated construction further. Construction was finally sped up in 2013 as a PPP project.
> 
> http://www.lamarseillaise.fr/marsei...-ouverture-de-la-rocade-l2-en-quelques-images


Photos:


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## verreme

^^ This will become a big _bordel_ until the remaining section of L2 is finished. I think it would've been wiser to wait until next year and open the two of them together.


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## ChrisZwolle

It will likely also have significant impact on the profitability of the Tunnel Prado-Carénage, which is a toll tunnel that connects A50 and A55, while A507 as a bypass that serves some of the same traffic flows, is untolled.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N141 Angoulême - Limoges*

The final segment of the N141 expressway between Angoulême and Limoges will start construction in May 2017.

The last missing segment of four lane highway is located between Chasseneuil-sur-Bonniere and Chabanais. It is planned to be completed by 2021.

http://www.lepopulaire.fr/roumazier...et-limoges-debutera-en-mai-2017_12187850.html

I've driven this route in September, traffic is fairly light on the expressway, but that's illusion, as the passage through the town of Roumazières-Loubert is one big truck traffic jam.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> It will likely also have significant impact on the profitability of the Tunnel Prado-Carénage, which is a toll tunnel that connects A50 and A55, while A507 as a bypass that serves some of the same traffic flows, is untolled.


Yes, however much of the traffic bypassing Marseille did not use the tunnels but road D4. It's a very congested urban road but A55 is also a nightmare in peak hours so paying the tunnel did not save much time. Plus you have to take it anyway if you want to reach the city center from the East.

L2 will definitely change traffic patterns once it's complete. I don't think the tunnel will cease to be profitable anyway. The most noticeable reduction in traffic will be in La Joliette interchange which is now a pain to get through. I also forecast a huge descent in revenue from the speed camera in Tunnel de la Joliette (50 km/h, big downhill grade) because that was where traffic cleared and people let loose.


----------



## Sesto Elemento

About the Berges of Paris:



Brisavoine said:


> Meanwhile in car-phobic Paris, the saga of the closure of the riverside expressway through the city center continues. I've been lazy to report about the developments over the past months, but there have been quite a few developments.
> 
> In a nutshell, the mayoress of Paris is as pigheaded as ever. Now that she's been elected president of the C40 (the 'Cities Climate Leadership Group' that gathers 85 world cities committed to address climate change), she feels like she's almost at the head of a holy crusade against the dark, evil forces of the automobile "lobby". It has had the effect of radicalizing her even more. At this point she won't listen to anyone anymore, and she has even blackmailed the French president: under threat of running against him in the presidential election, she forced him to submit a bill in Parliament that will change the status of the City of Paris and make it more independent from the State, in particular by giving it authority over the expressways and the Périphérique, so that when the Socialists lose power nationally next year the next rightwing president cannot re-establish traffic on the riverside expressways. The bill is currently being examined in Parliament, but in a funny twist Hollande has just announced he won't run in the presidential election after all, so submitting that bill to the Parliament wasn't even necessary, but now it's too late to move back. hno:
> 
> On the other hand, the toppling of the Socialist/Green coalition from power at the regional council last year and their replacement by a rightwing regional president has had a big effect. Since 1998, the Paris Region has been anti-automobile, due to the Green Party, and stopped funding road infrastructure and shelved all motorways and road projects (like completing the Francilienne orbital motorway which is the 3rd ring around Paris). Of course the regional authorities did no oppose the mayoress of Paris when she decided unilaterally to close the riverside expressway. Now this has changed. The new (female) president Valérie Pécresse has decided to put the regional transportation policy back on two feet: public transport and roads.
> 
> She has launched well needed work on the roads and motorways of the Paris Region, and her latest plan was in complete contrast with the previous Socialist-Green majority: she intends to improve traffic by putting in place real-time regulation of traffic and information of drivers, using emergency lanes during rush hours, upgrading various motorways, etc. Talking about roads is not a taboo anymore for the region.
> 
> Regarding the riverside expressway, she is now waging a total war against the mayoress of Paris. This is the first time in more than 15 years the right-wing parties dare oppose the anti-automobile ideology of the Left (before last year, they felt almost ashamed of defending cars and car drivers). The regional initiative I applaud the most is the new president has decided to destroy the media propaganda of the City of Paris. For the past 15 years now, each time the City of Paris has taken an initiative against cars, they have ordered their own studies, with cooked-up results that justify whatever they wish to do, and our media are so submissive and lazy they simply copy and paste whatever study the City of Paris gives them, without questioning the results or challenging the way the data are constructed and collected, or pointing out what's missing in those studies.
> 
> So it was of course no surprise when after the closure of the riverside expressway the 'studies' from the City of Paris showed that after all the closure had little impact on traffic, that pollution had decreased, that everything was very well in the best of world. Valérie Pécresse, the new regional president, very cleverly decided to set up an independent regional committee in charge of studying the effects of the expressway closure, to double check the studies from the City of Paris. The committee submitted its 2nd report last month, and it was scathing. It showed that contrary to what the City of Paris pretends, the closure of the expressway has greatly increased congestion, not just in the city center, but also beyond, and much beyond, including on the suburban motorways, which the City of Paris has conveniently left out from all its studies (they have only studied the supposed effect of the closure on the innermost areas of Paris).
> 
> The City of Paris has of course challenged the report from the regional committee, but what's really great is there is FINALLY a voice opposing the propaganda of the City of Paris that is being heard in the media. What a change!! The regional president has said the committee will publish regular reports for one year, and has already called on the prefect of police of Paris, who, until the new bill examined in Parliament is passed into law, has authority over the riverside expressways (if the bill becomes law, then the prefect of police, appointed by the national government, will lose authority and only the mayor of Paris will have authority over those expressways), to reconsider the closure of the expressway in light of the findings of the regional committee. The prefect of police has said he will assess the situation in March after 6 months of closure of the expressway, but I think it is unlikely he will reopen the expressway in the middle of the presidential campaign, UNLESS, now that Hollande has had to give up on a 2nd term and is said to be mad at all his colleagues in the Socialist party who have criticized him for 5 years as president, Hollande decides to say '**** off' to the mayoress of Paris who has been a vocal critic of Hollande, and tell the prefect of police to reopen the expressway just to piss her now that he's not running for a 2nd term anyway and has nothing to lose. Not the most likely scenario, given how weak Hollande generally is, but not totally impossible.
> 
> In the meantime, there's a general rebellion among the right-wing suburban mayors of Paris who feel the mayoress of Paris has decided this without consulting anyone at the Greater Paris level (the Metropolis of Greater Paris came into existence last January, but the mayoress has taken her decision without consulting anyone within the metropolis, as if the City of Paris lived in its own bubble, which is a caricature of 20th century isolationism that goes totally against the climate of metropolitan cooperation that everybody says is necessary nowadays).
> 
> Last week, 168 suburban mayors wrote an open letter to the mayoress of Paris to denounce the closure of the riverside expressway :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nous maires de la banlieue parisienne,
> 
> Elus des départements de la petite et de la grande couronne,
> 
> Nous sommes amenés à constater tous les jours que la décision unilatérale de la mairie de Paris et du préfet de police de Paris de fermer la voie sur berges Georges Pompidou a des conséquences dramatiques sur l’aggravation des bouchons pour la traversée de la capitale, sur le périphérique et, au-delà, des répercussions majeures en banlieue sur des axes de circulation essentiels (A4, A13, A86).
> 
> L’aggravation des encombrements entraine une détérioration de la vie quotidienne de dizaine de milliers de franciliens qui ne demandent qu’à exercer leur activité professionnelle, parfois à plus d’une heure de leur domicile.
> 
> Par un véritable effet domino, la fermeture des berges à Paris a des effets bien au-delà du territoire de la Ville et cela, ni l’Etat, ni la mairie de Paris ne veulent le reconnaître. Nous dénonçons cette indifférence à l’égard des habitants de la petite et de la grande couronne.
> 
> Pourquoi ne pas avoir engagé une concertation préalable avec tous les élus concernés avant de fermer de façon précipitée une voie expresse connue pour son importance pour la liaison ouest-est au risque d’aggraver les fractures territoriales de l’Ile-de-France ?
> 
> Pourquoi avoir écarté les conclusions de la commission d’enquête publique, présidée par un magistrat indépendant, qui avait pourtant -cas rarissime- rendu au mois d’août dernier un avis défavorable mettant en garde sur les conséquences potentiellement défavorables sur un périmètre beaucoup plus large que celui du strict territoire de la Ville de Paris ?
> 
> Pourquoi ne pas avoir engagé des discussions pour déterminer avec les collectivités franciliennes intéressées les nécessaires mesures compensatoires –création de parkings relais aux portes de la capitale, développements de transports alternatifs, établissement d’itinéraires de délestage etc.- auxquelles l’Etat et la mairie de Paris, à l’initiative de cette décision, devraient s’associer au titre de la solidarité des territoires ?
> 
> Pourquoi nier l’évidence de l’aggravation des embouteillages et des nuisances et accuser de « désinformation » les experts, lanceurs d’alerte, qui mesurent les conséquences néfastes de la décision en matière de transports, de bruits et de qualité de l’air ?
> 
> Pourquoi ne pas reconnaître que le souci de l’apaisement et de l’intérêt général impose d’engager des discussions avec les principales collectivités intéressées plutôt que de laisser « pourrir la situation » en misant sur une hypothétique évaporation de la circulation qui consiste en fait à se satisfaire d’un report durable des problèmes de la circulation sur le périphérique et en dehors de la capitale ?
> 
> Nous n’avons pas les réponses à toutes ces questions. Mais nous avons une certitude : les habitants de nos communes qui travaillent à Paris, les parisiens qui travaillent dans nos communes, et qui n’ont pas la possibilité de se déplacer dans des transports en communs insuffisants ou déjà saturés, sont fatigués et en colère. Ils attendent de nous une mobilisation sans faille pour obtenir que les projets de piétonisation de la capitale soient réexaminés dans la concertation, la transparence et avec le souci de la cohésion des territoires.
> 
> Voilà pourquoi nous avons décidé de déposer des recours en annulation de cette décision, ou de nous associer au recours déposé par la Région et des départements d’Ile-de-France.
> 
> Monsieur Manuel AESCHLIMANN, Maire d’Asnières ; Monsieur Yves ALBARELLO, Maire de Claye-Souilly ; Monsieur Denis BADRE, Maire de la Ville d'Avray ; Monsieur Pierre-Christophe BAGUET, Maire de Boulogne-Billancourt ; Monsieur Dominique BAILLY, Maire de Vaujours ; Monsieur Patrick BALKANY, Maire de Levallois-Perret ; Monsieur Jean-Michel BARAT, Maire de Jablines ; Monsieur Jean-Pierre BARNAUD, Maire de Chennevières-sur-Marne ; Madame Christiane BARODY WEISS, Maire de Marnes-la-Coquette ; Monsieur Gilles BATTAIL, Maire de Dammarie-les-Lys ; Monsieur Jean-Claude BATTEUX, Maire de Saint-Hilarion ; Monsieur Patrick BEAUDOUIN, Maire Saint-Mandé ; Monsieur Jean-Pierre BECHTER, Maire de Corbeil-Essonnes ; Monsieur Jean-Paul BENEYTOU, Maire de Chilly-Mazarin ; Monsieur Jacques-Alain BENISTI, Maire de Villiers-sur-Marne ; Monsieur Eric BERDOATI, Maire de Saint-Cloud ; Monsieur Jean-Didier BERGER, Maire de Clamart ; Monsieur Sylvain BERRIOS, Maire de Saint-Maur-des-Fossés ; Madame FlorenceBERTHOUT, Maire de Paris 5 ; Madame Michèle BERTHY, Maire de Montmorency ; Monsieur Bruno BESCHIZZA, Maire de Aulnay-sous-Bois ; Monsieur Yannick BOEDEC, Maire de Cormeilles-en-Parisis ; Monsieur Gérard BOISNIER, Maire de Pierre Levée ; Monsieur François BOUCHART, Maire de Roissy en Brie ; Monsieur Alain-Bernard BOULANGER, Maire de Villeneuve-la-Garenne ; Madame Monique BOURDIER, Maire de Bouleurs ; Monsieur Frédéric BOURDIN, Maire de Domont ; Monsieur Joël BOUTIER, Maire de Groslay ; Monsieur Philippe BRILLAULT, Maire du Chesnay ; Madame Delphine BURKLI , Maire de Paris 9 ; Madame Anne CABRIT,Maire d’Orsonville ; Monsieur Patrice CALMEJANE, Maire de Villemomble ; Monsieur Christian CAMBON, Maire de Saint-Maurice ; Monsieur Claude CAPILLON, Maire de Rosny-sous-Bois ; Madame Sylvie CARILLON, Maire de Montgeron ; Monsieur Gilles CARREZ, Maire du Perreux-sur-Marne ; Monsieur Daniel CATALAN, Maire d’Ury ; Monsieur Gilles CAUPIN, Maire de Treuzy-Levelay ; Madame Joëlle CECCALDI-RAYNAUD, Maire de Puteaux ; Monsieur Patrick CHARLES, Maire de Toussus-le-Noble ; Madame Marie-Carole CIUNTU, Maire de Sucy-en-Brie ; Monsieur Jean François COPE, Maire de Meaux ; Monsieur Sébastien COUPAS, Maire de Rampillon; Monsieur Pierre CUYPERS, Maire d’Aubepierre ; Madame Rachida DATI, Maire de Paris 7 ; Monsieur Arnaud DE BELENET, Maire de Bailly-Romainvilliers ; Monsieur Grégoire DE LA RONCIERE, Maire de Sèvres ; Monsieur François DE MAZIERES, Maire de Versailles ; Monsieur Stéphane DE PAOLI, Maire de Bobigny ; Monsieur Bernard DEBAIN, Maire de Saint-Cyr-l'Ecole ; MonsieurVincent DELAHAYE, Maire de Massy ; Monsieur Jean François DELESALLE, Maire de Doue ; Monsieur Richard DELL AGNOLA, Maire de Thiais ; Monsieur Christophe DELRIEU, Maire de Carrière-Sous-Poissy ; Monsieur Alain DEMELUN, Maire de La Brosse Montceaux ; Monsieur Christian DEMUYNCK, Maire de Neuilly-Plaisance ; Monsieur Roger DENORMANDIE, Maire de Montigny-Lencoup ; Monsieur Philippe DESCROUET, Maire de Serris ; MadameJeanne d'HAUTESERRE, Maire de Paris 8 ; Monsieur Patrick DONATH, Maire de Bourg-la-Reine ; Monsieur Olivier DOSNE, Maire Joinville-le-Pont ; Monsieur Didier DOUSSET, Maire du Plessis-Trévise ; Monsieur Grégoire DUBLINEAU, Maire d’Eaubonne ; Monsieur André DUCELIER, Maire d’Jean-Philippe DUGOIN-CLEMENT, Echouboulains ; Monsieur Maire de Mennecy ; Monsieur Christian DUPUY, Maire de Suresnes ; Monsieur Jean Louis DURAND, Maire de Marchémoret ; Madame Jacqueline EUSTACHE-BRINIO, Maire de Saint-Gratien ; Monsieur DanielFARGEOT, Maire d’Andilly ; Monsieur Jean-Paul FAURE SOULET, Maire de La Queue-en-Brie ; Monsieur Pierre FOND, Maire de Sartrouville ; MonsieurJean-Michel FOURGOUS, Maire d’Elancourt ; Monsieur Ghislain FOURNIER, Maire de Chatou, Monsieur Jean-Christophe FROMENTIN, Maire de Neuilly-sur-Seine ; Monsieur Grégory GARESTIER, Maire de Maurepas ; Monsieur Bernard GAUDUCHEAU, Maire de Vanves ; Monsieur Jacques GAUTIER, maire de Garches ; Monsieur Jean-Claude GENIES, Maire de Gressy ; Monsieur Claude GENOT, Maire de Chevreuse ; Monsieur Guy GEOFFROY, Maire de Combs-la-Ville ; Madame Sylvie GERINTE, Maire de Marolles-en-Brie ; Monsieur Hervé GICQUEL, Maire de Charenton-le-Pont ; Monsieur Claude GOASGUEN, Maire de Paris 16 ; Madame Nicole GOUETA, Maire de Colombes ; Monsieur Philippe GOUJON, Maire de Paris 15 ; Monsieur Jean-Jacques GUILLET, Maire Chaville ; Madame Hélène HENDERSON, Maire de Nanteuil sur Essonne ; Monsieur Michel HERBILLON, Maire de Maisons-Alfort ; Monsieur Philippe HOUILLON , Maire de Pontoise ; MonsieurJean-Raymond HUGONET, Maire de Limours ; Monsieur Thiďault HUMBERT, Maire d’Eragny ; Monsieur Christian JACOB, Maire de Provins ; Monsieur Claude JAMATI, Maire de Bailly ; MonsieurVincent JEANBRUN, Maire de L'Haÿ-les-Roses ; Monsieur Yves JEGO, Maire de Montereau Fault Yonne ; Monsieur Philippe JUVIN, Maire de La Garenne-Colombes ; Madame Joséphine KOLLMANNSBERGER, Maire de Plaisir ; Monsieur Jacques KOSSOWSKI, Maire de Courbevoie ; Madame Brigitte KUSTER, Maire de Paris 17 ; Madame Valérie LACROUTE, Maire de Nemours ; Monsieur Laurent LAFON, Maire de Vincennes ; Monsieur Jean Christophe LAGARDE, Maire de Drancy, Monsieur Emmanuel LAMY, Maire de Saint-Germain-en-Laye ; Monsieur Gérard LARCHER ; Monsieur Michel LAUGIER, Maire de Montigny-le-Bretonneux ; Monsieur Philippe LAURENT, Maire de Sceaux ; Monsieur Franck LE BOHELLEC, Maire de Villejuif ; Monsieur Olivier LEBRUN, Maire de Viroflay ; Monsieur Jean-Pierre LECOQ, Maire de Paris 6 ; Madame Françoise LECOUFLE, Maire de Limeil-Brévannes ; Monsieur Maurice LEFEVRE, Maire de Garges-lès-Gonesse ; Monsieur Jean-François LEGARET, Maire de Paris 1 ; Monsieur Xavier LEMOINE, Maire de Montfermeil ; Monsieur Etienne LENGEREAU, Maire de Montrouge ; Monsieur Daniel LEVEL, Maire de Fourqueux ; Monsieur Guy MALHERBE, Maire d’MANCEL, Maire de Triel-sur-Seine ; Madame Epinay-sur-Orge ; Monsieur Joël Françoise MARHUENDA, Maire Les Ulis; Monsieur Franck MARLIN, Maire d’Etampes ; Monsieur Hervé MARSEILLE, Maire de Meudon ; Madame Brigitte MARSIGNY, Maire de Noisy-le-Grand ; Monsieur Jacques JP MARTIN , Maire de Nogent-sur-Marne ; Monsieur Nicolas MEARY, Maire de Bretigny-sur-Orge ; Monsieur Eric MEHLHORN, Maire de Savigny-sur-Orge ; Monsieur MEIGNEN, Maire Le Blanc-Mesnil ; Monsieur Sébastien MEURANT, Maire Saint-Leu-la-Forêt ; Madame Isabelle MEZIERES, Maire de Auvers-sur-Oise ; Madame Maryse MICHON, Maire de Vaucourtois ; Madame Sylvie MONCHECOURT, Maire de Montigny-sur-Loing ; MonsieurGeorges MOTHRON, ŵaire d’Argenteuil ; Monsieur Rémi MUZEAU, Maire de Clichy-la-Garenne, Monsieur Jacques MYARD, Maire de Maisons-Laffitte ; Monsieur Karl OLIVE, Maire de Poissy ; Monsieur Guy PELISSIER, Maire de Behoust ; Monsieur Jacques PELLETIER, Maire de Milon la Chapelle ; Monsieur Philippe PEMEZEC , Maire Le Plessis-Robinson, Monsieur Yann PETEL, Maire de Saint-Germain-les-Corbeil ; Monsieur Ugo PEZZETA, Maire de La Ferté-sous-Jouarre ; Monsieur Tony PITA, Maire de Villiers-Saint-Georges ; Madame Danièle POIRSON, Maire de Tigeaux ; Monsieur Axel PONIATOWSKI, Maire de L'Isle-Adam , Madame Florence PORTELLI, Maire de Taverny ; Monsieur Brice RABASTE, Maire de Chelles ; Monsieur Robin REDA, Maire de Juvisy-sur-Orge ; Monsieur Yves REVILLON, Maire de Bois-Colombes ; Monsieur Franck RIESTER, Maire de Coulommiers ; Monsieur Marc ROBERT, Maire de Rambouillet ; Monsieur Bernard RODIER, Maire de Saint-Pierre-les-Nemours ; Madame Christine RODIER, Maire de Athis-Mons ; Monsieur Arnaud ROUSSEAU ;Maire de Trocy en Multien ; Monsieur André SANTINI, Maire d’Issy-les-Moulineaux ; Monsieur Jean-Pierre SCHOSTECK, Maire de Châtillon ; Monsieur Jean-Yves SENANT; Maire d’Anthony ; Monsieur Patrick SEPTIER, Maire de Moret-loing et Orvanne ; Monsieur Georges SIFFREDI, Maire de Chatenay-Malabry ; Monsieur Jean-Pierre SPILBAUER, Maire de Bry-sur-Marne ; Monsieur Luc STREHAIANO, Maire de Soisy-sous-Montmorency ; Monsieur Philippe SUEUR, Maire d’Enghien-les-Bains ; Monsieur Philippe TAUTOU, Maire de Verneuil-sur-Seine ; Monsieur Pascal THEVENOT, Maire de Vélizy-Villacoublay ; Monsieur Ludovic TORO, Maire de Coubron ; Monsieur Georges TRON, Maire de Draveil ; Monsieur Frédéric VALLETOUX, Maire de Fontainebleau ; Monsieur Laurent VASTEL, maire de Fontenay-aux-Roses ; Monsieur André VEYSSIERE, Maire de Dugny ; Monsieur Jean-François VIGIER, Maire de Bures-sur-Yvette ; Monsieur Jean-Marie VILAIN, Maire de Viry-Châtillon ; Monsieur Louis VOGEL, Maire de Melun
> 
> 
> 
> The regional council and several mayors have also launched several lawsuits to have the closure of the expressway annulled in courts, but I doubt this will work as the decision to close the expressway is a political decision, and a court cannot annul it based on a political positioning only (the claimants would have to prove something was legally wrong in the decision to close it, and I can't see what exactly was legally wrong).
> 
> In any case, there hasn't been so much opposition to the Green and anti-automobile lobby in the Paris Region in more than 20 years, so this is all excellent news. kay: Combined to this the fact that the City of Paris has decided to ban entry in the City of Paris for older vehicles, which again is a decision decided in their own bubble without consulting the suburban mayors, as if the Greater Paris Metropolis did not exist and pollution magically stopped at the administrative borders of the city, and you've got the recipe for a full-blown rebellion against the anti-automobile policies of the City of Paris. What most political leaders are saying is "yes we need to curb car pollution, but you don't do this by banning and enacting decrees in your little corner without consulting anyone and with total disregard for the wider agglomeration of Paris".
Click to expand...


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## ChrisZwolle

*A61, Toulouse*

Some photos of A61 in Toulouse. I took them in late August.

1. The A68 interchange. A62 from Bordeaux ends at this point, and becomes A61. The Toulouse bypass opened in 1988, completing both A61 and A62.

A61-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. A61 has recently been resurfaced. 

A61-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. Toulouse-Centre.

A61-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

A61-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

A61-9 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

A61-10 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. A614 is mentioned on several signs, but this number does not exist. It is A620, it's unclear why they still post it as A614, it hasn't been the official number for 20 years.

A61-11 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. A very messy gantry sign.

A61-12 by European Roads, on Flickr

9.

A61-14 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*A2-A23 Valenciennes*

The missing movement at the A2-A23 interchange in Valenciennes (Northern France) opens to traffic on 13 December. It is a flyover for traffic from Cambrai to Lille.


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## ChrisZwolle

*RN 20 Ax-les-Thermes*

The Ax-les-Thermes bypass of RN 20 was inaugurated today. It opens to traffic tomorrow. It is a 5.6 kilometer bypass, mostly a two-lane road, but a short section has passing lanes. It has cost € 70 million, construction started in 2002 and was planned to be completed in 2007, but lack of funding paralyzed the works most of the time.

http://france3-regions.francetvinfo...emier-ministre-bernard-cazeneuve-1153489.html


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## Noda[Med]

I drove between Saarbrucken and Strasbourg via N61 and than through A4 in 2014(august). quality of interchange on n61 was rubbish.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Montpellier*

Media report that the new A9 around Montpellier will open even earlier than planned, they're now speaking of March 2017. The current A9 will become A709. It was originally planned to be completed by the end of 2017, so they're now 9 months ahead of schedule on the € 800 million project. 

http://e-metropolitain.fr/2016/12/19/montpellier-lautoroute-a709-inauguree-en-mars/


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## ChrisZwolle

*N7 Varennes-sur-Allier*

The Varennes bypass of N7 opened to traffic this morning. It is a 5 kilometer segment of voie express, however it doesn't feature any interchanges yet.

http://www.lamontagne.fr/vichy/tran...ier-est-ouvert-a-la-circulation_12212383.html


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## ChrisZwolle

They built a solar panel road in a village in Normandy:










It's called the first in the world. The Netherlands inaugurated a stretch of solar panel bike path in 2014. It was reported to be quite bumpy.


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## sotonsi

What a waste.

Normandy is nowhere near sunny enough for solar panels to not be optimised (ie angled to better catch the sun, not having obstacles in the way). Optical-grade silicon is a high demand, not great supply product, and this Solar Roadway has used a load of it (pushing up prices and stopping it being used to its potential) and will struggle to make any lifetime energy net gains - a lot of energy goes into making photovoltaics and on top of reducing efficency, they reduce the lifetime by driving over them.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ They built a solar bike path in the Netherlands that generated electricity at a cost of 21,000 times the market price. They call it 'innovation'.


http://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2016/12/worlds-first-solar-road-opens-in-france/

_Back in 2014, a 70-metre solar bicycle path was built in the suburbs of Amsterdam in the Netherlands, at the utterly insane cost of €3 million. In its first year it produced about 3,000 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity—enough to power an average home. At the current wholesale price in the UK (about £40 per megawatt-hour), that same €3 million would've bought you about 65,000,000 kilowatt-hours of electricity, enough to power about 21,000 homes for a year._


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## sotonsi

^^ There's a big problem with northern Europe using no common sense and treating solar panels like magic beans and deploying them wherever seems cool and gimmicky, rather than wherever would generate the most energy (even if you ignore that the UK, Netherlands, Northern France, etc are places that get little solar energy compared to elsewhere in the world).


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## x-type

why would solar panel be built into road surface at all? it's not like ther's no space around the road for it.


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## Shenkey

it would be better to have it as a roof for bike paths, to have it on the floor is beyond retarded


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## ChrisZwolle

It's a gadget. If you want to believe all those hypes concerning roads... It has to has catenary electricity for trucks. Or induction for electric cars. Or solar panels. Or self-healing asphalt. Or durable pavement. And of course it also needs to meet standards for grip / friction and durability. But most importantly; cost-efficiency.


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## sotonsi

It can have it all, including cost efficiency





And if you believe that, I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and by gum I've put them on the map! :lol:


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## MichiH

*Why is this thread a sticky now?*


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## ChrisZwolle

I have no idea, I 'unstuck' it


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *D222:* Tregueux-La Croix Gibat – Tregueux-Perray (N12) 2.5km (? to Late 2016) – project – map


_Wiki Sara_ still indicates a 2016 opening and the project page is not updated. _Wikipedia_ indicates 2017 without any source. A news article from October reports about the construction of a bridge and next steps (for the bridge) till February 2017.

Does anyone have more info when the section is expected to be opened?


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## ChrisZwolle

*A714, Montluçon*

Some photos of A714, also known as the _antenne de Montluçon_. It is a 10 kilometer autoroute that links N145 with A71. It was opened to traffic in 2011.

1. N145 becomes A714 at Montluçon.

A714-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

A714-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. There is a serious climb on the east side of Montluçon, the motorway gains 200 meters in altitude over just a few kilometers.

A714-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. Virtually the entire A714 can be driven without paying a toll.

A714-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

A714-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

A714-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. The toll station is located right at the A71 interchange.

A714-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. I had to go right to Clermont-Ferrand. But the télépéage lane is all the way to the left.

A714-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## havaska

I like the design of french road signs but I wish they wouldn't use all capitals; it's much harder to read.

We essentially learn the 'shape' of words when you quickly read.


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## ChrisZwolle

*D700*

A 3 kilometer stretch of 2x2 voie express opens to traffic tomorrow morning in Bretagne, it's a part of D700 north of Loudéac, from the La Fourchette roundabout to the Bel-Air interchange. It's an expansion of the old road.










http://www.ouest-france.fr/bretagne...-2x2-voies-la-circulation-lundi-matin-4767324


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## ChrisZwolle

*A313 Pont-à-Mousson*

A313 is a short spur autoroute from A31 to the city of Pont-à-Mousson, halfway between Nancy and Metz. It is only two kilometers long and functions more like a long ramp than a true motorway, but it does have four lanes and motorway status.

1. Coming from A31, this interchange is incomplete, A313 can only be accessed to and from Nancy.

A313-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. This photo sets the tone of A313, a low priority motorway, with big cracks, faded road markings and overgrown roadsides.

A313-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. A313 is only two kilometers long.

A313-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. The only 'interchange' is a single ramp from A313 to D120 to Atton.

A313-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

A313-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

A313-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. A313 becomes a city street in Pont-à-Mousson.

A313-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

A 1.8 kilometer segment of D222 around Saint-Brieuc opened to traffic last Monday (30 January). It runs from La Croix Gibat to Yffiniac, excluding the N12 interchange. It is a 2x2 voie express.

http://www.saint-brieuc.maville.com...rain-autour-de-l-agglo_52683-3126114_actu.Htm


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## ChrisZwolle

*A31 Dijon - Langres*

A31 has been widened to six lanes back in 2009, between Dijon and Langres (A39 to A5). 

This section carries two types of traffic flow, from Paris to the south/Alps and from the Northeast to the South. It's rather busy in the summer and on some winter weekends, but traffic congestion has virtually been eliminated since expansion. Now you can drive it on cruise control the entire way on an average September day like this.



A31-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


A31-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


A31-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


A31-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


A31-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


A31-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


A31-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


A31-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*N80 Montchanin - Chalon-sur-Saône*

N80 or RN80 is a route nationale and expressway that forms part of the RCEA concept. N80 is the easternmost leg from Montchanin to Chalon-sur-Saône. 

N80 has been upgraded to a four lane, 110 km/h expressway, starting in the early 1990s. It wasn't until recent years that a longer continuous stretch of expressway was completed. Construction is currently ongoing to expand the westernmost segment near Montchanin to four lanes.

1. N80 twinning near Montchanin, this is shortly after the N70 roundabout.

N80-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

N80-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. Section control.

N80-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. The landscape is fairly interesting for Central France standards, more interesting than along N70 and N79.

N80-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

N80-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

N80-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

N80-9 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. 

N80-12 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. 

N80-15 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. 

N80-16 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Minato ku

Finally !!!


Brisavoine said:


> Incredible but true! The international bridge over the Oyapock River between France and Brazil, whose construction was completed in August 2011, is FINALLY about to open to traffic!
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> The bridge couldn't be opened to traffic during all these years essentially because of the Brazilians. Originally the Brazilians were very keen to build a bridge with France (the first road connection between the EU and the Mercosur, as it was hailed at the time), but then they built the bridge without planning for an access road and customs house. :lol:
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> The French completed the access road and all the customs and immigration installations on their side of the border before the bridge was even completed:
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> That's the French border checkpoint before the bridge (built in time for the completion of the bridge in 2011, and waiting unused for 6 years now!!):
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> Next to the checkpoint is a complex of customs houses and immigration agent offices (here under construction in early 2011):
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> The economic crisis in Brazil slowed progress on paving the access road and building customs and border police installations. What's more, the federal parliament in Brasilia was very slow in ratifying the international agreements with France regarding cross-border car insurance, movements of goods and of people, etc. The Brazilian MPs are peeved because France requires a visa for the Brazilians wishing to enter French Guiana (whereas no visa is required if they wish to travel to Metropolitan France). As for the French, it must be said the French authorities are particularly rigid in terms of the car insurances they require for the Brazilian drivers who want to drive in French Guiana. They wish to apply very strict EU rules without making an exception for this border region of French Guiana. So there has been lots of foot dragging in the federal parliament of Brazil plus an uncompromising attitude on the French side.
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> Eventually the governor of Amapá (the Brazilian state bordering French Guiana) took the matter in his own hands, and decided to pave the road leading to the bridge. This is now done. They have also finally started to build a Brazilian customs house and border checkpoint, and these should be completed by this summer.
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> As for the French, in 2015 they finally started granting border-resident cards to the Brazilian people living on the Brazilian side of the border, which appeased the Brazilian MPs who were annoyed by the fact the Brazilians required visas to enter French Guiana. These cards give them the right to stay on French territory for up to 72 hours. The Brazilians, however, complain that these border-resident cards only give the Brazilian border residents access to the border area of French Guiana. They do not give them access to the capital Cayenne 200 km away, so they can't go shopping in the shopping malls in Cayenne. That's due to a combination of French administrative rigidity + paranoia about immigration with the Front National now getting more than 25% of the votes (not in French Guiana, but the anti-FN Creole parties in French Guiana are also paranoid about Brazilian immigration).
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> Two weeks ago, the Brazilian federal parliament finally ratified the 3 international agreements with France regarding the taxation of goods at the border (and which goods, and in what quantity, the people crossing the border will be able to carry without paying customs duties), regarding merchandise transport and health regulations, and finally regarding the movement of people (which France had already ratified, hence the cross-border cards mentioned above). The first agreement exempts from customs duties all the so-called "means of subsistence" (such as food, clothes, shoes, cleaning products, etc).
> 
> As for car insurance, no agreement between France and Brazil has been reached yet. The Brazilian drivers would have to buy a one-month cross-border car insurance at the French border checkpoint costing 175 euros if they want to drive into French Guiana, whereas in Brazil the French drivers coming from French Guiana wouldn't need to buy a car insurance at the border, but they could run into big trouble if they have an accident in Brazil. A new Franco-Brazilian meeting is scheduled to take place on February 16 to discuss this issue further. This has reminded me how lucky we are in Europe where we have insurance agreements between the EU countries which allow us to drive to different countries without needing a new insurance each time we cross a border!
> 
> On January 16, a Franco-Brazilian emergency exercise was conducted on the bridge to test its equipment as well as the coordination of French and Brazilian rescue teams. You can see the news report below (at the end of the video we can see that the road on the Brazilian side of the bridge is finally paved, although covered by lots of dirt, but the customs house is still under construction):
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> One Brazilian rescue officer in the video says that they they still need to solve the issue of the language they will use to communicate between both teams (very oddly, in general the French know more Portuguese than the Brazilians know French, and usually the Brazilians don't master English well enough to communicate in English with the French side, so the French agents often need to speak in broken Portuguese to be understood).
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> No date has been scheduled yet, but the bridge should open to light vehicles within a matter of days now. Truck traffic will have to wait a few more months, as both countries still need to agree on some technical points. It is not known whether there will be an official inauguration at all after the opening of the bridge to car traffic (there certainly won't be one before it opens to car traffic). With the presidential election in France now and the political crisis in Brazil this is the worst of times to officially inaugurate the bridge, so what was presented for more than 20 years as a major rapprochement between France and Brazil (and beyond them between the EU and the Mercosur) will most likely open without any fanfare, almost in secrecy. I find that a bit sad.
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> A video from the last Franco-Brazilian cross-border cooperation committee in December, where the prefect of French Guiana said the bridge would open after the emergency exercise of January 16, most likely between the end of January and the beginning of the February he said (it's February 5 as I write this and the bridge is not yet opened...):
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> Last but not least, when the bridge finally opens, people crossing into Brazil will have to go clear customs and have their passports stamped by Brazilian authorities in the town of Oiapoque, 3 km from the bridge, as there won't be an operational border police station and customs house on the Brazilian side of the bridge before the summer. I find this Oyapock Bridge saga so representative of Brazil in a way.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A7 Salon*

An aerial view of A7 at Salon-de-Provence.










The Salon-Nord interchange currently consists of a single on-ramp in the direction of Lyon. Google Earth shows that an off-ramp from Lyon has also existed in the past, but has been decomissioned since at least 2003. There are no signs of a past toll gate there.

There are plans to build a full interchange:


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## ChrisZwolle

*D173 Ille-et-Vilaine*

A 6.8 kilometer segment of 110 km/h, 2x2 voie express opened to traffic on January 31 (according to Wikisara) between Retiers-Sud and a locality known as La Noë Jollys.

It is part of the Axe Rennes - Angers, a four lane road that links those cities. Not all of D173 is a grade-separated expressway, there are a few roundabouts closer to Rennes. The newly opened segment appears to end at a temporary terminus north of Martigné-Ferchaud.

Another segment southeast of Martigné-Ferchaud to the Maine-et-Loire boundary is also under construction, which according to Wikisara will open in September 2017.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N106 Nîmes*

They are starting with a western bypass of Nîmes, which will connect N106 to A9. Procedures have started, they plan to open the bypass in phases between 2021 and 2025.










http://france3-regions.francetvinfo...nce-mise-service-entre-2021-2025-1198833.html


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## ChrisZwolle

Gotta love the skiing trip to France. Only 3 hours delay between Lyon and Moûtiers. :nuts:

TomTom says there is alternating traffic east of Moûtiers, which results in 1.5 hour delays in both directions.


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## MichiH

*Axe Rennes-Angers*



ChrisZwolle said:


> A 6.8 kilometer segment of 110 km/h, 2x2 voie express opened to traffic on January 31 (according to Wikisara) between Retiers-Sud and a locality known as La Noë Jollys.
> 
> It is part of the Axe Rennes - Angers, a four lane road that links those cities. Not all of D173 is a grade-separated expressway, there are a few roundabouts closer to Rennes. The newly opened segment appears to end at a temporary terminus north of Martigné-Ferchaud.
> 
> Another segment southeast of Martigné-Ferchaud to the Maine-et-Loire boundary is also under construction, which according to Wikisara will open in September 2017.


According to wikisara, the following segments are u/c or planned to complete the Rennes - Angers expressway (D173 in l'Ille-et-Vilaine and D775 in le Maine-et-Loire):

*D173:* Retiers-South – La Noe Jollys 6.8km (? to 31st January 2017) – ? – map
_*D173:* La Noe Jollys – Martigne-Ferchaud-North ~2km (? to ?) – ? – map
*D173:* Martigne-Ferchaud-North – Martigne-Ferchaud-South ~2km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map_
*D173:* Martigne-Ferchaud-South – Le Moulin ~8km (? to September 2017) – ? – map
_*D775:* Le Moulin – Pouance-West ~4km (? to ?) – ? – map
*D775:* Segre-North – Segre-East ~2km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map_
*D775:* Le Lion-d'Angers-South - La Membrolle-North ~6km (? to July 2017) – ? – map

There are also roundabouts on the existing Le Lion-d'Angers bypass.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N145 La Souterraine - Guéret*

Some photos of N145, an east-west voie express in Central France. It links A20 with A71 near Montluçon, and is part of the RCEA concept. It was built mainly in the 1990s and 2000s, the final segment opened in 2011 around Montluçon.

From a landscape perspective, it was a positive surprise, possibly the most interesting autoroute or voie expresse in Central France, north of Auvergne. It is fairly hilly and the road keeps you entertained despite its 110 km/h speed limit.


N145-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


N145-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


N145-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


N145-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


N145-14 by European Roads, on Flickr


N145-17 by European Roads, on Flickr


N145-18 by European Roads, on Flickr


N145-20 by European Roads, on Flickr


N145-21 by European Roads, on Flickr


N145-23 by European Roads, on Flickr


N145-24 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Minato ku

Nouvelle route du littoral.



Brisavoine said:


> Some news from the overseas viaduct that will carry the new 6-lane coastal motorway of Réunion. This viaduct, and associated works, is currently the largest road construction in the EU!
> 
> First, a professional video from last September showing the laying of the first pier of the overseas viaduct on the bottom of the Indian Ocean by the mega-barge Zourite (for more background information about the colossal mega-barge Zourite and the engineering project, see this post):
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> Here below the latest amateur video of the viaduct, shot on February 13. As you can see (at 1:15 in the video), 3 piers have already been installed, and the mega-barge Zourite is working on laying the 4th one.
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> An amateur video shot yesterday which shows the eastern harbor of Réunion's seaport, where the elements of the piers as well as the 'voussoirs' (upper segments of the bridge which will rest over the piers) are manufactured. The mega-barge Zourite comes to the eastern harbor of Réunion's seaport to load each element of the piers one by one, and then travels to lay them on the ocean seabed a few kilometers away.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Montpellier*

It has been announced that the new A9 around Montpellier will be inaugurated on 10 March. The opening to traffic will be 'before 15 June'.

http://e-metropolitain.fr/2017/02/28/la-nouvelle-autoroute-a9-inauguree-le-10-mars/


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## g.spinoza

^^ Was it really so necessary to displace it a few hundred meters? Or maybe the old one will remain as a "tangenziale" or local bypass?


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## verreme

^^ The old A9 will remain in place for local traffic (it will be renumbered A709). The new one means that traffic will be free-flowing (no toll booths) around Montpellier, and capacity will be doubled.


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## ChrisZwolle

It will drastically reduce summer congestion. On busy summer days, traffic volumes on A9 approach 170,000 vehicles per day which overwhelms the toll plazas and mixes with local traffic.

With the new A9 bypass, through traffic will stay within the closed toll system while traffic to, from and within the Montpellier area will use A709 (old A9). They say it will become a 'boulevard urbain' but I don't think they will install traffic lights or roundabouts. This also doesn't make sense as it will remain a high-volume motorway and it runs mostly through industrial and commercial areas on the edge of Montpellier. It doesn't slice the city in half like the former A4 in Reims.


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## ChrisZwolle

Overturned trucks on the Nantes beltway due to a windstorm:


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## ChrisZwolle

*N19 Sevenans*

Construction has started on a new N39-A36 interchange near Sevenans, just south of Belfort. It will link N19 from the west, N19 to Switzerland with A36. Construction will last until 2020.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Montpellier*

The new A9 around Montpellier was officially inaugurated today. However, the project is not yet completed and may not open to traffic for at least several months, so it seems a bit like a political ploy ahead of the presidential elections in late April.


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## OulaL

ChrisZwolle said:


>


What is the point of having a roundabout on both sides of the highway – instead of just having one dogbone, which practically acts as a single roundabout?

EDIT: I see there is a side road on the right side, but not on the left.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ At least in Spain that's also very common, even when there's just a single road on each side of the highway; I guess it has to do with lower construction costs: building a single roundabout above the highway needs two different bridges, while a roundabout on each side just requires a single albeit wider bridge.

In any event, newer interchanges in Spain have, when possible, a single roundabout above the motorway rather than two different roundabouts on each side of it.


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## Minato ku

Pont Oyapock


Brisavoine said:


> Talking of official inaugurations for the sake of official inaugurations, we learned on Friday that the former partner of President Hollande, the Minister of the Environment, Energy and the Sea, Ms Ségolène Royal, will be in French Guiana next week where, believe it or not, she will* officially inaugurate the international bridge on the Franco-Brazilian border over the Oyapock River on Saturday, March 18, at 11:15am local time*. No presidential inauguration apparently!
> 
> It is not yet known whether the bridge will then be opened to car traffic, or whether it will just be an official inauguration to make departing ministers and president feel good about themselves, as in the case of the new A9 around Montpellier. In any case, even if they open the bridge to car traffic, it will take until at least the summer for the Brazilian authorities to finally have an operational customs house on their side of the bridge, so that in any case truck (freight) traffic won't be allowed before the end of the year.
> 
> Let's also note that the final stretches of the muddy track between the international bridge and Macapá (capital of Amapá state) won't be paved (and proper bridges built over the rivers) by the Brazilians before the end of 2018 (the pavement of this road is 40 years behind schedule, and the federal authorities of Brazil have now decided to take over the project themselves, with the army if necessary...).
> 
> This report from 2014 shows the state of the Brazilian road between the international bridge and Macapá during the rainy season of 2014. According to the report, 113 km of dirt/muddy tracks still needed to be paved (and proper bridges built; currently there are only rickety wooden bridges) to complete the 500 km road between the French border and Macapá. Brazilian people in the report say local corruption in the state of Amapá is responsible for this (federal funds sent to Amapá are embezzled and do not achieve anything). The former governor of Amapá has been indicted for embezzlement of public funds, the new governor appears to be more dynamic, and federal authorities have now taken over the issue themselves like I said.
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## flierfy

OulaL said:


> What is the point of having a roundabout on both sides of the highway – instead of just having one dogbone, which practically acts as a single roundabout?
> 
> EDIT: I see there is a side road on the right side, but not on the left.


The answer is simplicity and familiarity. One aims for junctions which are simple and familiar. The traffic flow on two small roundabouts is easier to understand than on one large oddly shaped dogbone.


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## sotonsi

Minato ku said:


> Pont Oyapock


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## Highway89

Now that I'm watching the last stage of the Paris-Nice cycling race, I remember noticing the other day this 45 km/h speed limit sign: https://goo.gl/maps/g6Uvx5g1Rk72

I reckon that the sign must be at least 30 years old. Are such _5 km/h speed limit signs still used in France?


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## ChrisZwolle

You can occassionally still spot those. They seem pretty rare though.


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## Minato ku

France is a large country (at least in European context) with a lot of small rural roads.


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## Bender

I am well aware of the political climate in France and the hysteria of the local administrations against everything that comes with an engine and 4 wheels.

Montmarault and Digoin.... now that's a priority :lol:


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## ChrisZwolle

Well, it definitely needs an upgrade, it is a dangerous two-lane road with a large volume of truck traffic. There are a few short passing lanes here and there, but other than that it is inadequate for a long-distance route. 

It is the first new section of the RCEA to be upgraded to autoroute status, but I think that in this case it would not cost much more to design it at 130 km/h instead of 110 like the other new segments of RCEA. N79 runs through flat terrain and is very straight in most locations. They are quoting some € 420 million for the 90 kilometer upgrade. That's under € 5 million per kilometer.


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## Suburbanist

So today I visited the former Seine voie espress closed by the mayor of Paris.


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## italystf

Motorways plan for Paris in the 1960s










Red: sections that have since been actually built
Purple: planned sections (outside city proper)
Dark blue: planned urban open-air sections (narrow line = one way)
Light blue: planned underground sections

The plan was abandoned in 1974 due to oil crisis, and, later, increase of environmental/historical preservation awareness.


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## Ices77

ChrisZwolle said:


> Construction on the A6-A89 link in Lyon will start on Monday 4 April, according to 20 minutes. A construction start was also announced in September 2015.
> 
> The € 150 million project will construct 5.5 kilometers of motorway and a new interchange with A6. It is expected to be completed in February 2018. It will improve east-west traffic through Lyon. Motorway infrastructure in Lyon was mostly oriented north-south until now. They already opened a new link between A46 and A6 north of Lyon in 2015 (A466).


And here are some construction shots from April:


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## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Montpellier*

Some photos of A9 through Montpellier, taken today by a member of the Dutch road forum. Within a few weeks, the new alignment of A9 will open to traffic around Montpellier, the existing autoroute will be renumbered to A709.


Untitled by Wegenrein, on Flickr


Untitled by Wegenrein, on Flickr


Untitled by Wegenrein, on Flickr


Untitled by Wegenrein, on Flickr


Untitled by Wegenrein, on Flickr


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## acela

Untitled by Wegenrein, on Flickr


Untitled by Wegenrein, on Flickr

Just curious. How the french paint their road/autoroute?. Whats with the line white line?


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## ChrisZwolle

Those thin white lines are guidance markings for the crew that applies the regular road markings. They usually fade away quickly after being put into service.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Axe Rennes - Angers*

A 3.5 kilometer segment of the Axe Rennes - Angers (D173) in the department of Ville-et-Vilaine officially opens to traffic tomorrow, 3 May. Some sources say it opened late April. It is a 2x2, 110 km/h expressway through the Forêt d'Araize. The construction cost was € 15 million. It ends at the Maine-et-Loire border.

215651603


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## slickman

Does anyone know something about the roadworks of the N10 between Angouleme and Bordeaux? Will they be finished this year? Is there any stretch finished yet?


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## slickman

^^ First segment of 6,6 km between Reignac and Touvérac will be open in June.


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## Ices77

^^ And the rest of the section should be opened in 2019.










Some construction shots:




























Full gallery at: http://www.nge.fr/amenagement-a-2x2-voies-entre-reignac-et-chevanceaux-16/


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A 3.5 kilometer segment of the Axe Rennes - Angers (D173) in the department of Ville-et-Vilaine officially opens to traffic tomorrow, 3 May. Some sources say it opened late April. It is a 2x2, 110 km/h expressway through the Forêt d'Araize. The construction cost was € 15 million. It ends at the Maine-et-Loire border.





MichiH said:


> According to wikisara, the following segments are u/c or planned to complete the Rennes - Angers expressway (D173 in l'Ille-et-Vilaine and D775 in le Maine-et-Loire):
> 
> *D173:* Retiers-South – La Noe Jollys 6.8km (? to 31st January 2017) – ? – map
> _*D173:* La Noe Jollys – Martigne-Ferchaud-North ~2km (? to ?) – ? – map_


_

_According to wikisara, the latter is u/c and to be opened by 2019.



MichiH said:


> _*D173:* Martigne-Ferchaud-North – Martigne-Ferchaud-South ~2km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map_


_

_According to wikisara, the latter is u/c and to be completed by 2020.



MichiH said:


> *D173:* Martigne-Ferchaud-South – Le Moulin ~8km (? to September 2017) – ? – map


The southern segment (3.5km) was opened on in late April as Chris wrote. The construction period was "more than one and a half year" (source). I guess construction works were started in 2015.
The northern segment seems to be opened with the neighboring section in 2020.

_*D775:* Le Moulin – Pouance-West ~4km (? to ?) – ? – map
*D775:* Segre-North – Segre-East ~2km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map_
*D775:* Le Lion-d'Angers-South - La Membrolle-North ~6km (? to July 2017) – ? – map[/QUOTE]

The northern segment (Grez-Neuville bypass, 3km) of the latter was opened on 15th May 2017.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Construction began today to expand a segment of N70 between Palinges and Génelard to a four lane expressway. It is part of the RCEA concept and is north of the four lane segment that opened to traffic last month.
> 
> http://www.lejsl.com/edition-montce...s-travaux-debutent-entre-palinges-et-genelard


The news article reports about a 6km section. It seems to be completed by 2018 according to wikisara. I drove there in late April and could spot construction works. It's from exit 17 to 19, the section opened in March ends at exit 20. A 5km gap will remain from exit 19 to 20.

*N70:* Palinges – Genelard 6km (April 2017 to 2018) [2nd c/w] – ? – map

The section b/n Blanzy (exit 10) and Montchanin (exit 9) is also u/c and to be completed by 2018. If memory serves, it was more advanced.

*N70:* Blanzy – Montchanin ~5km (? to 2018) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


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## MichiH

Two more 2x2 expressway sections u/c I've seen in April/May:


The bridge south of the current 2x2 end near Hertzing is u/c:

*N4:* Saint-Georges – Hertzing 3km (? to 2018) – ? – map


First works seem to be u/c and I saw a sign indicating the construction period 2017-2019:

*N7:* south of Villeneuve-sur-Allier – Trevol 2km (2017 to 2019) – ? – map

It's next to this section u/c:

*N7:* north of Villeneuve-sur-Allier – south of Villeneuve-sur-Allier ~7km (Late 2010 to 2017) – ? – map


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## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Montpellier*

Finally, the the Montpellier bypass of A9 will open to traffic this week. Traffic will be using the new motorway in two phases, on Tuesday morning towards Nîmes and Wednesday morning the direction of Narbonne. 

http://www.20minutes.fr/montpellier/2075867-20170529-montpellier-nouvelle-autoroute-a9-ouvre-semaine


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## ChrisZwolle

*Vosges*

I took a short vacation in the Vosges Mountains in Eastern France. It's a really nice area, the highlight in terms of roads is the 'Route des Crêtes' which follows the highest ridge of the Vosges, with several sections over 1000 meters altitude, and more importantly, above the tree line, so there are great views. One day I could see the entire Swiss Alps from the road. Which is 150 kilometers away.

I filmed several sections, here is the first video of the southern part around the Grand Ballon (highest point of the Vosges).


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## italystf

Are they planning to build a bypass around Arles, connecting the two sections of A54? Currently, to drive between Genoa and Barcelona, you have to drive through the city.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ You don't have to drive through the city, the 25 km segment of N572 and N113 connecting both sections of A54 would in fact be considered a motorway in many countries, but in France they tend to apply a very restrictive definition of motorway. Just check aerial footage in Google Maps.

I drove that section 8 years ago and maybe the only difference I noticed between the motorway (A54) and the expressway (N572 + N113) sections was the lack of toll.

But I agree with you that it would be a good idea to build a proper alignment for A54 south of Arles, leaving the current expressway near the city center for local traffic. Without being as problematic as A9 in Montpellier (until today :lol, it's true that that section carries a lot of traffic due to the existence of several accesses and only a 2x2 configuration.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are indeed plans for a new bypass of Arles, but there hasn't been much talk about it (like many proposed projects under the Hollande government). As they appointed an environmental activist as transportation minister, excuse me, minister of _ecological transition and solidarity_, I don't have much confidence in future motorway projects in France, but I'd like to be proven wrong on that.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Strikes are causing fuel shortages throughout France, but mostly in the northwest and in Paris. Yellow are fuel stations with limited supply, orange are fuel stations with no supply.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are indeed plans for a new bypass of Arles, but there hasn't been much talk about it (like many proposed projects under the Hollande government). As they appointed an environmental activist as transportation minister, excuse me, minister of _ecological transition and solidarity_, I don't have much confidence in future motorway projects in France, but I'd like to be proven wrong on that.


I've never had any trouble crossing Arles. I only remember one traffic jam or two, and it was a very busy Friday afternoon in the end of June. However, when crossing Montpellier on the old A9 there was a >50% chance of getting stuck in massive congestion, sometimes with traffic already backing up in Sète. I think there are higher priorities in région PACA regarding infrastructure, such as the crumbling, old motorways surrounding the Aix-Marseille area or the absolute lack of commuter expressways in Côte d'Azur.


----------



## italystf

^^
^^
The French usually take workers strikes in a quite serious way, something that in Italy probably doesn't happen since the 1980s.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N10 Poitiers - Bordeaux*

The first new carriageway of the upgraded N10 expressway in Southwestern France will open to traffic tomorrow. It is a 6.6 kilometer segment between Reignac and Chevanceaux. The entire project length is 11.2 kilometers. By June 30th there will be 2x2 lanes and 110 km/h.

http://www.charentelibre.fr/2017/05...re-chaussee-de-rn-10-ouvre-demain,3105086.php


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A36 Belfort - Mulhouse*

I took some photos of A36 last week. It was the first time I drove here. Before this trip I've only driven the short segment between Mulhouse and the German border. A36 is quite a long autoroute, called La Comtoise. It runs from A6 near Beaune to the German border. It is a partial toll road.

1. A36 is equipped with six lanes through Belfort & Montbéliard.

A36-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

A36-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. You can exit before the tolls. A36 has an open toll system in this area, with a single toll barrier between Belfort and Mulhouse.

A36-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

A36-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. The _gare de péage_.

A36-9 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. There was a serious backup on the westbound side. As traffic was otherwise light, I suspect they did not have a sufficient amount of toll gates open.

A36-10 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. Colmar is routed via the former N83 (now D83), a four-lane road. It's slightly shorter than A36-A35.

A36-13 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. The N66/D68 interchange. N66 ends here, D68 is an expressway along the west side of Mulhouse.

A36-15 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. Exit to D68.

A36-16 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. There is no mention of N66 here, nor any recognizable destinations. These towns are suburbs of Mulhouse. Though traffic to Thann and Épinal would've taken an earlier exit.

A36-17 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. Expansion works are ongoing on the west side of Mulhouse.

A36-18 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. Judging by this sign, they have been working on it for some time.

A36-19 by European Roads, on Flickr

13. Mulhouse-Centre. There aren't actually a whole lot of Mulhouse exits along A36.

A36-21 by European Roads, on Flickr

14. This is the other part of the Mulhouse-Centre interchange, which also serves D430, an expressway to the northern suburbs. The region north of Mulhouse is quite densely populated and has a number of four lane roads in addition to A35 and A36.

A36-22 by European Roads, on Flickr

15. There are now six lanes.

A36-23 by European Roads, on Flickr

16. This exit serves a commercial / industrial area. If you're traveling to Italy from the Netherlands, this is a good area to get an affordable hotel before going into expensive Switzerland.

A36-25 by European Roads, on Flickr

17. The A35 interchange. There is a nice 2-lane flyover from Basel to Mulhouse.

A36-27 by European Roads, on Flickr

18. Unusual support columns.

A36-30 by European Roads, on Flickr

19. A35 runs through a TOTSO, you have to exit on the right in both directions to follow A35 north and south. Otherwise you'll end up on A36.

A36-31 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A36 Mulhouse*

A video in the opposite direction, starting at A35, then onto A36 and finally on the D68 expressway. The flyover is quite cool.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Strasbourg*

2015 traffic volumes in Strasbourg. The smaller number indicates the number of trucks and their share (%).

Strasbourg is pretty busy, also because all traffic eventually ends up on A35. The highest traffic volume is 162,800 vehicles per day near the city center. The new western bypass (dashed as the Grand Contournement Ouest) will alleviate it. But putting a toll on it won't help attracting traffic, especially off-peak.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N82*

The final missing link of N82 between Roanne and A72/A89 at Balbigny is nearing completion on this 30 March 2017 imagery.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N66*

A couple of photos of N66 from Remiremont to Rupt-sur-Moselle in the Vosges Mountains in Eastern France.

1.

N66-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

N66-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

N66-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

N66-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

N66-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

N66-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

N66-10 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. 

N66-11 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. De 2x2 voie express eindigt bij Rupt.

N66-12 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. 

N66-13 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. 

N66-14 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A6 Villefranche-sur-Saône*

I stopped at McDonald's in Villefranche-sur-Saône, which is located right along A6.

1. Villefranche-sur-Saône is known for its large toll plaza going south. It is the end of the tolled segment from Paris to Lyon.

A6 Villefranche-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. A6 runs right through Villefranche-sur-Saône.

A6 Villefranche-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. Side view

A6 Villefranche-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N10 Poitiers - Bordeaux*

The second carriageway of N10 between Reignac and Chevanceaux was inaugurated today. 

There is now only 4 kilometers remaining between a locality known as La Grolle and Chevanceaux, which will be completed in 2 years.

This photo was probably taken before the actual opening to traffic:








© Jérôme Deboeuf (France Télévisions)

http://france3-regions.francetvinfo...e/angouleme/nouveau-troncon-rn10-1286789.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A630 Bordeaux*

I filmed A630 around Bordeaux, across the Pont d'Aquitaine.






The signage is a mess.

* the number A630 is almost never signed
* it uses green instead of blue signs
* from A10 the number A630 is signed 
* from A63 there is only rocade intérieur / extérieur signed
* from A62 there is only rocade signed
* from N89 there is neither a road number or any rocade signs


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A45 Lyon - St. Étienne*

The Council of State has given a positive advice for the construction of A45, a new motorway between Lyon and St. Étienne. 
Construction could start in 2018 with a completion in late 2022.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/20...at-pour-l-a45-entre-lyon-et-saint-etienne.php

The A45 is funded two-thirds by the government and one-third by VINCI. 
It is a € 1.2 billion project, one of the largest in France in the coming years.

Some enthusiasts made this map:


----------



## g.spinoza

Two parallel motorways? Spanish style!


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> I filmed A630 around Bordeaux, across the Pont d'Aquitaine.
> 
> 
> The signage is a mess.
> 
> * the number A630 is almost never signed
> * it uses green instead of blue signs
> * from A10 the number A630 is signed
> * from A63 there is only rocade intérieur / extérieur signed
> * from A62 there is only rocade signed
> * from N89 there is neither a road number or any rocade signs


The same thing happens in Périphérique de Toulouse. Apparently some French cities are ashamed of having a motorway.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

main cities in france are signed in green , you can reach them by road or motorway


----------



## verreme

^^ Motorway signage in France is blue. Exits pointing to cities are green. But the signage in Bordeaux's A630 is inconsistent because mainline signs are green and they should be blue. In Toulouse's A620, some mainline signs are white, and they should also be blue.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*chauves-souris*

Bat passages across A89 west of Lyon.

A89-18 by European Roads, on Flickr


A89-19 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## x-type

bat? they cannot just fly over the motorway? i must admit this is the first time i see such a thing.


----------



## bogdymol

Can someone explain how does this work?


----------



## Negjana

Longest straight also only about 12.7km.

German A1 between Heidenau and Hollenstedt isn't too far behind at 10.3km.


----------



## verreme

There are a bunch of 10+km long straights in Spain, but none that long. However I suspect Italy can have a longer one.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've checked Italy and none of the autostrade in the Po plains is really dead straight. They curve out some 100-300 m over a distance of circa 20 kilometers. This is almost unnoticable when driving.


----------



## italystf

Fane40 said:


> I think it is more than 28 km.
> I would have to think of measuring (with my vehicle) the exact length the next time I pass there.
> I don't believe there is an other stretch of highway, even of road, longer than this one in Western Europe.


A8, Italy 29.3 km
https://www.google.it/maps/dir/45.5...45.6274919,8.7708472,10.75z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0

EDIT: maybe the junction with A9 invalidates it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ A8 deviates as much as 750 meters from a straight line between those two endpoints.


----------



## Negjana

But the A8 between the A9 interchange and Galeron leads atm at 17.5km. Any longer straights? :cheers:


----------



## Highway89

I made a quick search and found this thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1770897

It's not exactly the same concept of "straight" but we could continue there. It'd be interesting to see each country's longest straight, either on motorways or not.


----------



## Negjana

I created a new thread. :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Col de Sainte-Marie*

The Col de Sainte-Marie is a mountain pass in the Vosges Mountains in Eastern France. It used to be a part of N59 between Nancy and Sélestat, but lost importance after the Tunnel Maurice-Lemaire opened to road traffic. It is nowadays used by traffic wanting to avoid the toll and hazardous cargo, which is not allowed in the tunnel. It is presently numbered as D459. 



Col de Sainte-Marie-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col de Sainte-Marie-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col de Sainte-Marie-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col de Sainte-Marie-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col de Sainte-Marie-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

The Fourvière Tunnel in Lyon is closed after a crash caused damage.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Col Haut de Ribeauvillé*

The Col Haut de Ribeauvillé in the Vosges Mountains in Eastern France, D416 between Sainte-Marie-aux-Mines and Ribeauvillé. 742 meters high.


Col Haut de Ribeauvillé-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

D11III

Col Haut de Ribeauvillé-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col Haut de Ribeauvillé-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col Haut de Ribeauvillé-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*A304*

The new A304 between Charleville-Mézières and Rocroi.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Is it open already?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No not yet. A portion will open before the end of year.


----------



## Nikolaj

ChrisZwolle said:


> No not yet. A portion will open before the end of year.


Why do they call it A304? It is a continuation of the A34.


----------



## sotonsi

The A34 heads via the E46 to Belgium the other direction.


----------



## Penn's Woods

So Google Maps is showing T- and RT- roads, with blue markers, in Corsica....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Those were introduced a few years ago


----------



## sotonsi

WikiSara says Autumn 2014 for implementation of a January 2014 renumbering.

Corsica decided it was a territory, rather than an integral part of Metropolitan France, and so renumbered the _Routes Nationales_ as _Routes Territoriales_, and added a couple of other roads to that network.


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ I didn't follow your discussion, but there's no-longer _Routes Nationales_ either in Metropolitan France (oh and BTW, Corsica is part of Metropolitan France ).


----------



## sotonsi

parcdesprinces said:


> there's no-longer _Routes Nationales_ either in Metropolitan France


When did that happen? :shocked:


> (oh and BTW, Corsica is part of Metropolitan France ).


Sure, but the Corsican Government decided to ditch being part of the mainland's network of N roads, and instead of replacing them with other N roads like Guadeloupe, French Guiana, Martinique, Mayotte, Reunion, and Saint Pierre & Miquelon went with territorial roads like New Caledonia, French Polynesia, and Wallis & Futuna.


----------



## Penn's Woods

*[F] France | road infrastructure • autoroutes de France*

[Edit: Reply to Sotonsi, last post on previous page. Phone didn’t show me this page for some reason....]

I figured it was something like that. So what’s the difference between T and RT?
And why blue; is it the same sort of blue as those M- roads in Nice? (And do those exist elsewhere?)


----------



## sotonsi

Penn's Woods said:


> I figured it was something like that. So what’s the difference between T and RT?


Same as N and RN - nothing, other than they decided to sign the R. Which I'm not sure is true with Corsica.


> is it the same sort of blue as those M- roads in Nice?


Yes


----------



## parcdesprinces

sotonsi said:


> When did that happen? :shocked:


Back in 2005 ! (Routes Nationales have been retrograded as D roads (i.e. Routes Départementales)



> *Les départements héritent de 18 000 km de routes nationales*


LeMonde.fr/les-departements-heritent-de-18-000-km-de-routes-nationale (2005)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not all routes nationales were transferred to the departments in 2006. A core network is still in use.


----------



## Penn's Woods

As Chris said, I knew SOME had been transferred to the départements, but not all. So that’s still the case?


----------



## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> A core network is still in use.


About 8888km! So roughly one-third of the pre-2005 network remains.


----------



## alserrod

Which roads haven't been sent to departements?


----------



## Luki_SL

^^Roads signed with "N" prefix :hm: ?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yep.

The remaining routes nationales are generally expressways, to-be-expressways, or major routes in areas without autoroutes. 

There were two major transfers of routes nationales to the departments, in 1973 and 2006. 

The M-routes around Nice are routes métropolitaines, these include both former N-roads as well as D-roads around Nice. I don't quite see the advantage of this system. It also doesn't cover the entire Alpes-Maritimes department, just all roads within 10-15 km of Nice.


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## Highway89

Luki_SL said:


> ^^Roads signed with "N" prefix :hm: ?


Yes, that's the logical thing. But in Spain we have several N roads that are managed by provinces or regions, so I kind of understand why he asked :lol:


----------



## alserrod

In other ways... which is network managed by state? (RN)


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> In other ways... which is network managed by state? (RN)




The “A” roads - which stands for “Autoroute” - like Spanish autopistas and autovías; and
the “N” roads - which stands for “Nationale” (you’ll see “RN” or “Route nationale” as well, but only “N” on signs and most maps.


----------



## rpc08

France is the ultimate example of how to take an easy, intuitive numbering system and make it almost useless. Apart of the main network nothing makes much sense on it actually.


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ If you say so... = opcorn: dear Portuguese friend, LOL ohno


----------



## sotonsi

^^ I'm not sure Portugal had the easy-to-use intuitive numbering system to begin with!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, he has a point, the route nationale numbering plan was easy to follow and logical (for the most part). 

The N-numbers are now often 3/4-digit D-numbers. N29 = D1029, etc. Luckily we still have the green signs to navigate across the secondary road network. 

I took D2020 (ex-N20) from Orléans to Vierzon a number of times. It used to be a quick toll-free alternative to A71, with only a few towns along the route. But they have downgraded many urban sections to 30 km/h and with very annoying speed bumps.


----------



## rpc08

^^Thanks Chris for adding to my point. 

Yeah, I'm portuguese, and our numering system is also very confusing. But sorry, it doesn't make yours better.


----------



## parcdesprinces

ChrisZwolle said:


> Well, he has a point, the route nationale numbering plan was easy to follow and logical (for the most part).
> 
> The N-numbers are now often 3/4-digit D-numbers. N29 = D1029, etc. Luckily we still have the green signs to navigate across the secondary road network.
> 
> I took D2020 (ex-N20) from Orléans to Vierzon a number of times. It used to be a quick toll-free alternative to A71, with only a few towns along the route. But they have downgraded many urban sections to 30 km/h and with very annoying speed bumps.


All that's because you're not French, so you can't understand! :tongue2:


:bowtie:


----------



## verreme

The current French numbering system is a disgrace. They want to funnel you into _Autoroutes_ even if you don't want to fill the pockets of the greedy concessionaire owners. And the old _nationales_, which are sometimes impossible to follow due to the numbers changing at every _département_ border, are downgraded with silly measures such as lowered speed limits outside built-up areas and gymkhana-like traffic calming through villages. It's a total shame that such a great, efficient road network (much more efficient than the German one, for example, because roads are straight and go through less villages) is totally disregarded by the government.


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ Don't worry dear Catalan friend, we are about to close -again- the Franco-Spanish border (just like we did during your first civil war)... so you won't have to complain about the French roads! = Problem solved! :angel:


:troll:


:runaway:


----------



## Bender

verreme said:


> It's a total shame that such a great, efficient road network (much more efficient than the German one, for example,* because roads are straight and go through less villages)* is totally disregarded by the government.



Say what? Quite the contrary actually, straight roads are forbidden in France :cheers:


----------



## Suburbanist

I see no problem whatsoever in traffic calming older national routes that cut straight through urban settlements, as long as the road design is downgraded to match that of a street and not of a highway, within the urbanized perimeters. 

It is really a bad idea for everyone to have cars zipping at 70km/h through city centers with houses and shops and 90-degree city block intersections and tight sidewalks.


----------



## hammersklavier

Suburbanist said:


> I see no problem whatsoever in traffic calming older national routes that cut straight through urban settlements, as long as the road design is downgraded to match that of a street and not of a highway, within the urbanized perimeters.
> 
> It is really a bad idea for everyone to have cars zipping at 70km/h through city centers with houses and shops and 90-degree city block intersections and tight sidewalks.


Say whaaaaaat? After seven years it's finally happened: Suburbanist is taking sense!


----------



## xrtn2

Interesting discussion here :lol:


----------



## VITORIA MAN

what i dont understand is why several sections of a national road have been downgraded to RD and its not possible for instance reach paris from the spanish border following the same route number


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ Same here...and I'm not Spanish.


But, well, French bureaucracy... ohno


BTW, AFAIK, you can still reach Paris by following the "N20" number (from Andorra, etc), or the "N10" one (from the Basque Country) :dunno:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Only 109 km out of the original 855 kilometers is still signed N20 between Paris and Bourg-Madame. The same goes for N10, only 331 km is still signed N10 out of the original 750 kilometers between Paris and Hendaye.


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ Didn't know that. Thanks for the info.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A352 Strasbourg - Molsheim*

A352 is a short autoroute west of Strasbourg, from A35 at Duppigheim to Molsheim. It opened to traffic in 1988.











A352-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


A352-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


A352-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


A352-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


A352-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


A352-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


A352-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## flierfy

ChrisZwolle said:


> Well, he has a point, the route nationale numbering plan was easy to follow and logical (for the most part).
> 
> The N-numbers are now often 3/4-digit D-numbers. N29 = D1029, etc. Luckily we still have the green signs to navigate across the secondary road network.


The French road numbering is now more logical than prior the down-grading. With the construction of the motorways many sections of the Route Nationale network simply lost their national significance. Yet, they kept their number. That made them look awkward and completely out of place. The shifting of the ownership to the départements and the consequential renumbering was the only logic step.


----------



## sotonsi

^^ Next to autoroutes isn't that bad to have detrunked, and thus renumbered due to the way French roads are numbered by who is responsible for maintaining it, but not all the downgraded routes are. The former N29 that is still E44 is rather silly.

There's also the issue that many autoroutes are tolled and so 'shunpiking' is in the national interest to some extent (eg Spain's Autopista are mostly shadowed by N roads, if not A roads created by the N road being upgraded).

Then there's the downgraded network keeping old numbers - eg the route between the A16 and Boulogne Port being the ~1km N416 and then a ~1km section of N1 sandwiched between D roads. There's also stuff like the N1xxx series of bypasses (N568 split in two by the N1568 that opened several years ago IIRC) and the N249 being the bits of the N149 corridor heading SE from Nantes that have been upgraded. Keeping kilometrage from changing is more important than navigation.

Even the Autoroutes aren't immune with the A71 become A75 randomly - as it always has. It's not the end of the tolled route, it's not where the former A72 (now A89) splits. It's not even different time periods with the road either side of the junction where the number changes opening at the same time.

I can understand the A6 becoming the A7 at Lyon, and the A10 becoming the A63 at Bordeaux (less so on the latter, though the A630/N230 (grr - so close with the number, yet so far) ring breaking it is good) but there's tons of changes in numbers that don't make sense now. The N70-N80 has it's own junction numbering scheme, but not one consistent number (OK, E607, but the French aren't Belgians/Nordic).

The French N/A numbering systems are easy to follow and logical. French N/A road numbers on the ground, however, often try hard to undermine that. It's far from the worst road numbering, but it doesn't live up to its potential.


----------



## alserrod

So then.... let me understand... a lot of national road have been degraded to departement roads renumering as D-XXYY where XX = departement, same remains, and I guess google maps will not be updated.

Am I wrong?

@parcdesprinces, I guess you got wrong forumer to deal about borders regarding topic...


----------



## Penn's Woods

sotonsi said:


> ^^...There's also the issue that many autoroutes are tolled and so 'shunpiking' is in the national interest to some extent (eg Spain's Autopista are mostly shadowed by N roads, if not A roads created by the N road being upgraded)....



Isn’t there, or wasn’t there in the past, an actual requirement in French road signage rules that when a destination is posted via a toll road, they have to or had to give an alternate route? “DIJON par RN,” that sort of thing?


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> So then.... let me understand... a lot of national road have been degraded to departement roads renumering as D-XXYY where XX = departement, same remains, and I guess google maps will not be updated.
> 
> Am I wrong?
> 
> @parcdesprinces, I guess you got wrong forumer to deal about borders regarding topic...




You’re slightly wrong: the XX doesn’t indicate the département. In a lot of cases, they’ve just converted the old national number to a three-digit number beginning with 9. The N29 might be the D929. But that doesn’t seem to be consistent in all départements.


----------



## parcdesprinces

alserrod said:


> @parcdesprinces, I guess you got wrong forumer to deal about borders regarding topic...


I was just joking around anyway.. so nothing serious.


----------



## verreme

Bender said:


> Say what? Quite the contrary actually, straight roads are forbidden in France :cheers:


There are many long straights on French ordinary roads (not motorways). Even in non-downgraded _routes départementales_. France was the first European country to systematically design and build modern roads and this legacy remains today.



parcdesprinces said:


> ^^ Don't worry dear Catalan friend, we are about to close -again- the Franco-Spanish border (just like we did during your first civil war)... so you won't have to complain about the French roads! = Problem solved! :angel:
> 
> 
> :troll:
> 
> 
> :runaway:


Fine. There are too many French tourists in Barcelona. And I'm sick of them. Last year I crashed into a French SUV because its driver jumped on the brakes when he saw the light turning yellow (and we were _both_ going to get through!). And last week some drugged French youth nearly ran me over with his rental while driving like... well, what he was, on a residential street.

Plus, we can't pay rent anymore because you guys need hotels and Airbnb acommodation.

So go ahead.


----------



## MichiH

Penn's Woods said:


> You’re slightly wrong: the XX doesn’t indicate the département.


yep, there are 3-digit and 4-digit D routes and they are only unique within each departements.



Penn's Woods said:


> In a lot of cases, they’ve just converted the old national number to a three-digit number beginning with *9*.


Beginning with *6*. Minimum in the north-east.... :lol:


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## ChrisZwolle

It varies by department. 6, 8, 9, 10, 20 and others are used. In Cambrai, the former N43 is numbered D2643. Despite the renumbering, the former N-roads are typically still the higher standard and more important regional links in a department and across departmental borders. Many more routes nationales were renumbered than just the ones running parallel to an autoroute. Some 20,000 kilometers of routes nationales were transferred to the departments in 2006.


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## italystf

It seems that French numbering scheme is as messy as the Italian one, with all these roads that have been handed over from the central state to subdivisions and thus renumbered often in an inconsistent manner.


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## sotonsi

^^ No, the French numbering scheme isn't very messy at all. French numbers on the ground, however, are often messy.

In Italy, the mess on the ground usually is treated by the numbering scheme as a feature rather than bad implementation.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A40 Nantua - Bellegarde*

Some photos of A40 from an overpass between Nantua and Bellegarde in the Jura Mountains.


A40 Nantua-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


A40 Nantua-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


A40 Nantua-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## VITORIA MAN

why all the routes D have the same sign yellow colour ? 
in spain we have diferent sign colours for primary or secondary roads : yellow for local roads , green for provincial roads , orange for regional roads...


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## Highway89

Well, if I'm not mistaken, Spain is the only country in Europe that uses different colours for each category of non-national roads (in fact, there probably are not so many countries that classify non-national roads into more than one category), so maybe the question should be the opposite. Is it really necessary/useful to use so many colours?


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## VITORIA MAN

for me it is useful to know the category of the road








https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...18)_(2).jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120102171019


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## verreme

^^ D-roads are always the same category.


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## VITORIA MAN

But not all the d roads are the same
















https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/routes/images/0/0e/D400_67.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111105120950


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## Highway89

^^ A "yellow" (local, lowest-tier) road in Spain can also be anything from a motorway to a country lane. And some provinces use other colours (purple or grey) instead of yellow. And its number can have like 50 (?) different prefixes. And the same can be said about "green", "orange" or even national roads. So we use nearly 100 prefixes and at least 7 different colours...


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## ChrisZwolle

The numbers of a route départementale say very little about the quality of a road. The D9xx* numbers are often ex-routes nationales so they can be of a higher standard, but as routes nationales were transferred _en masse_ both in 1973 and 2006, it doesn't say anything about the design standards. 

Especially the routes nationales that were transferred in 1973 were often of lower design standards, they typically lack a _contournement_ (bypass) of towns whereas routes nationales that were transferred in 2006 often have several bypasses or other upgraded sections. However the route numbering doesn't show that. In fact in many departments, single-digit routes départementales are often very secondary in character. But some others may be of higher standard, up to a _voie express_ (four-lane divided highway with grade-separation).

* D9xx: as discussed earlier, many departments numbered ex-routes nationales as a D9xx, but many other numberings are also used. This varies by department. For example N64 is now numbered D64, D164, D964 & D764.


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## alserrod

Highway89 said:


> Well, if I'm not mistaken, Spain is the only country in Europe that uses different colours for each category of non-national roads (in fact, there probably are not so many countries that classify non-national roads into more than one category), so maybe the question should be the opposite. Is it really necessary/useful to use so many colours?


Matter of opinion.

Of course, we all know about some first regional level roads which aren't the best ones and other second or third ones which are not bad at all... but it is supposed that, providing they are refurbished, they will get one or other standards.

Therefore, blue for motorways, never mind which ones and a colour system is easier than a number to know which roads "might" be better or worst for a journey


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## flierfy

sotonsi said:


> Next to autoroutes isn't that bad to have detrunked, and thus renumbered due to the way French roads are numbered by who is responsible for maintaining it, but not all the downgraded routes are. The former N29 that is still E44 is rather silly.


French authorities don't have control over the routing of E-routes. You can hardly blame them for that.



sotonsi said:


> Then there's the downgraded network keeping old numbers - eg the route between the A16 and Boulogne Port being the ~1km N416 and then a ~1km section of N1 sandwiched between D roads. There's also stuff like the N1xxx series of bypasses (N568 split in two by the N1568 that opened several years ago IIRC) and the N249 being the bits of the N149 corridor heading SE from Nantes that have been upgraded. Keeping kilometrage from changing is more important than navigation.


As far as I can find these examples I can't see anything wrong with them. I actually wonder what your problem is. All roads have unique numbers, the streets have at least unique names. So each part of the road network is identifiable.



sotonsi said:


> Even the Autoroutes aren't immune with the A71 become A75 randomly - as it always has. It's not the end of the tolled route, it's not where the former A72 (now A89) splits. It's not even different time periods with the road either side of the junction where the number changes opening at the same time.


What do you mean by become? The A 71 and the A 75 are two separate roads which join each other at Clermont-Ferrand. It has always been this way ever since these roads were built and it will most likely stay this way. There is nothing wrong with that and certainly nothing random.



sotonsi said:


> I can understand the A6 becoming the A7 at Lyon, and the A10 becoming the A63 at Bordeaux (less so on the latter, though the A630/N230 (grr - so close with the number, yet so far) ring breaking it is good) but there's tons of changes in numbers that don't make sense now. The N70-N80 has it's own junction numbering scheme, but not one consistent number (OK, E607, but the French aren't Belgians/Nordic).


Why should the N 70 and N 80 have one consistent number when they are two roads? And what exactly is the problem with this?


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## sotonsi

flierfy said:


> French authorities don't have control over the routing of E-routes. You can hardly blame them for that.


They could
1) not sign the E44 along the D roads, but they do, suggesting that they shouldn't have detrunked it given they think its of European importance, but not National importance!
2) truncate the E44 to Longwy to avoid using the D643/D8043/D1043/etc - all very easy, just tell the UNECE they are doing it and the change will be made. Given the French submitted a proposal to change to the agreement a few years ago, they know they could have done it.


> All roads have unique numbers


There's 3 bits of the N1: 7km between the N104 and A16, 5km between N25 and A16 to complete the Amiens ring road, 3.5km between the N416 and Boulogne port.
There's 4 bits of N7: the 3km extending the A106 through Orly Airport, the 162km voie express that extends the A77, 194km alongside the A7 that only really has the Valence bypass that's worth being N road (but you'd still have that section), and 9km heading south of Avignon.

Hardly 'unique'. You downgrade (or not in the case of the N7 alongside the A7) a road leaving several pieces. Those pieces are mostly not functionally part of the former whole anymore.

There's no reason other than laziness why the Boulogne section of N1 can't be N416 - given they were willing to renumber 100s of km of road that were detrunked, why not isolated sections of once-major routes that retained their N status? It's not like the road in Boulogne is part of the Paris-Calais-Belgium road anymore: it's clearly part of the A16-Boulogne national road, ie the N416, nowadays.


> What do you mean by become?


The number just changes.

And because not a natural place for a number change and never has been, they have big orange signs informing you of the number change as literally nothing but the number has changed! Not maintenance/concession, not construction date, not what intercity route you are on.


> The A 71 and the A 75 are two separate roads which join each other at Clermont-Ferrand.


But at a junction which was never the main exit for Clermont. Clermont traffic leaves at junction 16, but the A71 continues south to a junction where you can't access C-F from the N-S Autoroute and the autoroute east goes and joins up with the road passed two junctions ago that is the main road east out of C-F and has been since they built it!


> certainly nothing random.


The junction where they do it is very much random. Not the city, not the main route east. No, a little spur to the airport.


> Why should the N 70 and N 80 have one consistent number when they are two roads?


Two road numbers that meet end-on? The junction on the N80 to the east is '6' with them then decreasing and the junction on the N70 to the southwest is '8' with them increasing? That's one road with two road numbers. Same junction numbering, being upgraded to Voie Express as one road, same E-number. It's one road with two numbers.

I really don't know what you have against roads not changing numbers in
- random locations by mid-sized cities because they felt like it (the A480/A51 is a more blatant example than the A71/A75)
- where the main road changes what former main road it is on (eg N70/N80)
- because there's a newish bypass the N569 ends and the road becomes N1569 around the town then returns to being N569 (the old road through the town having been downgraded)
- because there's a new Voie Express upgrading the corridor and that had to be N249 rather than N149 for some strange reason.


----------



## sponge_bob

sotonsi said:


> They could
> 1) not sign the E44 along the D roads, but they do, suggesting that they shouldn't have detrunked it given they think its of European importance, but not National importance!
> 2) truncate the E44 to Longwy to avoid using the D643/D8043/D1043/etc - all very easy, just tell the UNECE they are doing it and the change will be made. Given the French submitted a proposal to change to the agreement a few years ago, they know they could have done it.


Hang on a sec, E Roads in France are mainly around 60 years old now. Are you saying that France has not systematically rejigged E Roads off the old routes and onto motorways like the A1 and A6 which are the best part of 50 years old. ??

Or is this a recent thing where France (like other countries) no longer care about E Roads now we all have Satnavs or access to Viamichelin. ?


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## sotonsi

sponge_bob said:


> Hang on a sec, E Roads in France are mainly around 60 years old now.


Err, the current network was planned in 1974, agreed in 1975, implemented in 1983 and went through major changes in 1985. France added/changed a lot in 1985 - eg there was no 3-digit routes in France before '85 (though, oddly the E611 was proposed in '74, then ditched when it came to implementation in '83 and then added without change in '85).

E Roads in France are mostly 32 years old, though never have been set in stone.


> Are you saying that France has not systematically rejigged E Roads off the old routes and onto motorways like the A1 and A6 which are the best part of 50 years old. ??


No. I'm saying that the purge of national roads included corridors _without_ Autoroutes, but with E Roads - eg the old N43 / E44 heading east from Saint Quentin towards Longwy (the section between N51 and N58 is still N43). ie that France considered roads to not be of national interest, while keeping them of European interest.

The French are rather good at moving E roads to Autoroute/Voie Express - they actually moved the E54 onto the D438 voie express between Lure and Belfort long before they N19 it was built to replace (have they even done that yet?).

Romania is the only country that doesn't move E Roads to parallel motorways (with Hungary going as far as submitting the minor changes to the UNECE to reflect the slight change in route), with maybe a couple of minor exceptions where a route hasn't been moved.

France last proposed changes to the Agreement as recently as 2005, though that wasn't the road list. The large downgrading was that same year.

As I say, good numbering system with sometimes terrible implementation.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N202 Col de Toutes Aures*

N202 runs across the Col de Toutes Aures in the southern Alps. N202 is the main road to Nice but loses its route nationale status at a rather arbitrary location, an intersection near Saint-Benoit, where it becomes D4202, and later D6202 and M6202 in the Var department.

The pass separates the watersheds of the Var and Verdon rivers.


N202 Col de Toutes Aures-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N202 Col de Toutes Aures-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


N202 Col de Toutes Aures-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## CNGL

Even worse, that wasn't part of the original N202, it was N207. It actually ends at its own former route, a junction where three routes end: N202, D4202 (D6202 and M6202 down the road) and D902 (D2202 up the road). N202 used to run on the departmental routes until 1973, when most of it was downgraded and was sent to Barreme over what had been N207. Then in 2006 the rest of the original route to Nice was downgraded too, so now N202 doesn't retain any of its original route (The "Route des Grandes Alpes").

About E routes, one of the two sections of E74 in France runs along a departmental route in its entirety: D6204. This is just after entering France from Italy coming from Ventimiglia, and this was N204b before 1973 and then just plain N204 until 2006.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N87 Grenoble*

I filmed N87 through Grenoble. N87 is a voie express that forms the bypass of Grenoble from A41 to A480 / A48 / A51. All east-west through traffic uses it.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Rouen Bypass*

The Declaration of Public Utility (DUP) has been issued for the Rouen Bypass project on 14 November:

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affi...JO&categorieLien=id&idJO=JORFCONT000036026548

A l'issue des travaux, le statut d'autoroute est conféré aux sections nouvelles créées :


- entre l'autoroute A 28 (commune de Quincampoix) et l'autoroute A 13 (commune d'Incarville). Cette section portera la dénomination d'autoroute A 133 ;
- entre la section susmentionnée (commune de Gouy) et la route départementale RD 18E (commune de Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray). Cette section portera la dénomination d'autoroute A 134.​
If I'm reading this correctly, the entire bypass will be numbered A133, with a branch route across the Seine called A134. 

The map:


----------



## sponge_bob

Macron went on record in the summer saying that almost 40% of Transport spend went to TGV for 2% of person movements under Mobilite 21.

But is he going to rebalance Transport expenditure...does anyone know?

Far as I see he intends to simply cut expenditure and is even threatening to balance the state budget...something most unFrench!


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## ChrisZwolle

They reconsidered basically all major infrastructure projects; TGV, autoroute, canals, etc. 

Though the autoroute projects have a major advantage; it pays for itself through tolls and concessions. TGV doesn't do that. Here's a link which states that TGV consumes 38% of the budget while accommodating only 2% of travel.


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## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> If I'm reading this correctly, the entire bypass will be numbered A133, with a branch route across the Seine called A134.


What fantastic numbers for a scheme that's meant to be filling the A28 gap. icard:


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## ChrisZwolle

You can argue that this project will accommodate three different traffic flows;

* north-south following A28 (Calais - Le Mans)
* north-south (Calais - Orléans via A154 and to-be-upgraded corridors)
* east-west (Rouen - Paris)


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## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> You can argue that this project will accommodate three different traffic flows;
> 
> * north-south following A28 (Calais - Le Mans)
> * north-south (Calais - Orléans via A154 and to-be-upgraded corridors)
> * east-west (Rouen - Paris)


For sure, but lets say the A133-A134 bypass of Rouen was numbered A28 and the route heading between that and the A13 was A133.

The first flow would go A28-D18e-A13-A28 rather than A28-A133-A134-D18e-A13-A28. Two numbers dropped.

The second would go A28 - A133 - A13 - A154 rather than A28 - A133 - A13 - A154. No change

The third would go D18e - A28 - A133 - A13 rather than D18e - A134 - A133 - A13. One number swapped. OK, maybe one number added if taking the D9014 or ex-N51 into Rouen.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A304 Charleville-Mézières - Rocroi*

Opening dates have been announced for A304 in Northern France.

The Le Piquet / Tremblois-lès-Rocroi - Rocroi section will open on 22 December 2017. This is from N43 north to the existing voie express around Rocroi. It is approximately 8 kilometers long.

The longer Boulzicourt - Le Piquet section will open to traffic on 15 June 2018. This runs from A34 south of Charleville-Mézières to N43 at Le Piquet. I assume N43 will be declassed to a route départementale at that time.


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## Penn's Woods

^^So does this get the E420 designation? And if so, how far south does the E420 go?


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *D9:* Gare d'Aix-en-Provence-TGV-East – Calas 3km (? to 2017) – ? – map


To be opened in December 2017 (source).




MichiH said:


> *N70:* Blanzy – Saint-Eusebe 4km (Fall 2015 to 2017?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


Seems to be completed according to OSM. Any news when this section was (or will be) opened?



MichiH said:


> *N57:* Breurey – Voray-sur-l'Ognon 4.8km (January 2015 to Late 2017) – ? – map


It still seems to be announced opening by the end of the year


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## ChrisZwolle

According to Wikisara, the second carriageway of N70 opened on 23 October: http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Histoire_de_la_RCEA


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## MichiH

^^ Thanks, I've only checked the main page, not "Histoire". It was previously announced to be opened in September 2017.


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## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> They reconsidered basically all major infrastructure projects; TGV, autoroute, canals, etc.


Some of the big ticket items like canals in the east and TGV lines under the Alps (Lyons - Turin) are massive and come in at €10bn + each. Nor can they be built in stages as only the full project delivers any benefits. The TGV Atlantique extensions to Rennes (from Chartres or Le Mans) cost €4bn in fairly benign terrain by the time it opened this year for around 200km of new track, c. €20m a km and I think the other extension from Tours Bordeaux cost €10bn.

Meanwhile France needs effective motorway bypasses of Paris ( finish the A104) and of Lyons (to the west) like they did with Montpellier earlier this year. 

The Rouen Bypass is partially a Paris Bypass too of course.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N202 La Roche Percée*

The 'Roche Percée (pierced rock) is a section of N202 running through a rockwall near Annot, approximately 70 kilometers from Nice.


N202 La Roche Percée-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N202 La Roche Percée-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

In the same area: 


N202 La Roche Percée-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


N202 La Roche Percée-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*D2202 Gorges de Daluis*

Departmental road D2202 (former N202) runs through the Gorges de Daluis, a very deep gorge of the Var River near Guillaumes. It is located in the Alpes-Maritimes departement. 

D2202 runs through the gorge, with many pullouts where you can enjoy the fantastic scenery. The gorge is so deep you often cannot see the bottom. D2202 is an interesting road, southbound runs through narrow tunnels, northbound splits off several times to run along the gorge, effectively making it a set of one-way roads. 

The red-brownish rock gives it a completely different look and feel than the nearby Gorges du Verdon and the surrounding mountains. This particular rock type is only on a 15 x 4 km area. The nearby Gorges du Cians run through similar terrain but is not as spectacular. 




D2202 Gorges de Daluis-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


D2202 Gorges de Daluis-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


D2202 Gorges de Daluis-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


D2202 Gorges de Daluis-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


D2202 Gorges de Daluis-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


D2202 Gorges de Daluis-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


D2202 Gorges de Daluis-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


D2202 Gorges de Daluis-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Wolfgang16

ChrisZwolle said:


> The nearby Gorges du Cians run through similar terrain but is not as spectacular.


The road through Gorges du Cians were one of the most spectacular roads in earlier times when it run directly through the gorge and not in tunnels. You can still get the feeling when you walk on the old road.


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## Wolfgang16

Wolfgang16 said:


> *N141:* La Vigerie – Saint-Yrieix (Villesèche) 5.5km (? to End of 2016) – project – map
> 
> 
> (source, the name L'Epineul is a mistake.)
> 
> This is the very important connection of N141 to N10 west of Angouleme. The existing junction at Fléac is prone to queues. The construction of the new junction was started in the early 2000s but suspended in 2006 due to interference with the high speed railway project LGV SEA (Ligne à Grande Vitesse Sud-Europe Atlantique) between Tours and Bordeaux.
> 
> What had been finished is now named N1141. Some ghost bridges can be seen in Google streetview1 and streetview2 and in this article.
> 
> But obviously the construction was not completely suspended. At the point where the future N141 will cross under the LGV a bridge is built! This can be seen in Google, too.
> 
> Now works will be resumed.
> http://www.charentelibre.fr/2013/11/28/routes-la-charente-presque-comblee,1867589.php
> Here is some sort of tender.
> 
> The general secretary of the prefecture hopes to open the new expressway in the end of 2016
> sources
> 
> There is also a blog about this topic:
> http://collectif-riverains-rn141.blogs.charentelibre.fr/


I posted this more than 2 years ago. Now works seem to start:

http://www.charentelibre.fr/2017/11/21/le-doublement-de-la-rn-141-accelere-a-la-vigerie,3167166.php

and should be finished in 2020 as far as I understand


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## Minato ku

Reunion.


Brisavoine said:


> A very recent video showing the motorway from St Denis to Le Port (Réunion). In it we can see (starting at 1:30 in the video) the overseas viaduct under construction that will replace the current motorway. It's starting to look pretty impressive! :cheers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An aerial view of it, starting at 5:00 in the video, which was shot 2 weeks ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And finally a video from early October:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the width of that mammoth overseas viaduct. :guns1:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory it could accommodate 8 lanes, but they will use it only for 6 car lanes (plus 2 bicycle lanes, which is slightly ridiculous, but then the 'Greens' had to be placated).


[/QUOTE]


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## Reivajar

What are they going to do with the old alignment on the shore?


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## ChrisZwolle

Some more N141 news, the voie express between Roumazières and Chabanais will start in early 2018 and it to be completed in 2020/2021. By that time, construction will start on the section between Chasseneuil-sur-Bonnieure and Roumazières. This is the final missing link of four lane voie express between Angoulême and Limoges.

http://www.lepopulaire.fr/roumazier...-141-entre-limoges-et-angouleme_12646574.html


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## ChrisZwolle

The N12 / D222 interchange at Saint-Brieuc opened to traffic on 27 November. 

D222 is the new southern bypass of Saint-Brieuc. Plans call for a western extension to N12, to create a full bypass and possibly even rerouting N12 across the southern bypass.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A507 Marseille*

The northern portion of the L2 / A507 around Marseille will open 'in a few months', according to this article:

http://www.laprovence.com/article/edition-marseille/4729783/la-rocade-l2-fonce-vers-la7.html

They also say that the average volume on the southern portion is around 65,000 vehicles per day.


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## ChrisZwolle

A 5.5 km section of 2x2 voie express was inaugurated today in Vendée. It opens for traffic on 11 December. It runs parallel to the older D949B and connects the town of Chantonnay to A83 at Bournezeau.

http://www.vendee.fr/Territoire-et-...e-la-2x2-voies-entre-Chantonnay-et-Bournezeau


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## ChrisZwolle

*D383 Périphérique de Lyon*

There is a level crossing on the 10 lane D383 on the south side of Lyon. 

This is how they stop traffic:


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## ChrisZwolle

*N27 Dieppe*

Construction on N27 on the south side of Dieppe will be resumed this year. They built a viaduct across the Scie valley which was completed in 2015, but works were stopped. 

https://www.lemoniteur.fr/article/le-viaduc-de-la-scie-bientot-relie-au-reste-du-monde-35286781


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## ChrisZwolle

*Col d'Allos*

Some views of the 2250 meter high Col d'Allos in the Alps, south of Barcelonnette. The road was built in 1891 but lost some significance after the nearby Col de la Cayolle was completed in 1914 and became a part of N202 in 1920.


Col d'Allos-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col d'Allos-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col d'Allos-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col d'Allos-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col d'Allos-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## tunnel owl

gigilamoroso said:


> Wow, take a breath, relax. WeÂ’re talking about moving up your foot from the gas pedal just a little bit so that the speedometer needle moves back from 90 to 80. Yes you can!


Spending my holiday in France last year I was surprised how rigid the speed-limit ist kept by french drivers. It was told, that there have been many controls in the last years and punishment is real hard. So I enjoyed the very good discipline. As I heard about the 80 km/h limit I wondered if France still has a high accident-rate on rural roads. I can´t imgaine this, compared to Germany. Really no one drove more than 90 km/h on rural roads. A friend of mine was really nervous as even in Paris cars strictly drive with 50 km/h.


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## Wolfgang16

I agree with this. When you are in France in holiday and not in hurry, driving is much more comfortable compared to former times (although I had to pay 145€ fine at first because I did not know about this).
Regarding the high accident-rate, isn't that the consequence of the tolled motorways? Its not only the high toll rate, but especially in rural regions the exit density is low and it is often complicated to get on and off the motorway and drivers in hurry stay on the normal road.


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## Sesto Elemento

Brisa:



Brisavoine said:


> The level of protest against the 80 km/h speed limit is bigger than anyone could have expected (especially the government, who thought that the measure would barely meet any opposition, as had been the case for the past 15 years). Even the snobbish Parisian and anti-car driving newspaper Le Monde is forced to report the protest and the arguments of the anti-80 km/h.
> 
> On a side note, I'm in the countryside for a few days in Southern France, and here all the people I talk to are opposed to this new speed limit. They say it will take for ever to go to work or travel the long distances of rural France.
> 
> Oh, icing on the cake, the Mayor of Paris Anne Hidalgo, who has done her best to block car driving in Paris in the past 3 years, has completely collapsed in the polls. Pollsters say voters now see her as an extremist and not a politician with environmental conviction anymore.
> 
> Rebellion on the march!
> 
> 
> 
> Road safety: the opponents to the 80 km/h speed limit rally around
> 
> Le Monde
> February 3, 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toulouse on January 27, 2018
> 
> The reduction from 90 to 80 km/h of the maximum authorized speed on 400,000 kilometers of roads just doesn't wash with the public. Demonstrations, petitions, open letters ... this decision has triggered a revolt among bikers and motorists, who want to prevent its entry into force on July 1.
> 
> On Saturday, February 3, demonstrations are organized across France at the call of the French Federation of Angry Bikers (FFMC) and the association 40 Million Motorists, united for the first time in a joint action.
> 
> Last weekend, marchers gathered thousands of people, with the support of departmental groups created on Facebook and called "Rage" ("Colère"). More actions are planned next week.
> 
> The explanations given on January 9 by the prime minister, Edouard Philippe, to justify the limitation of speed on the two-way secondary roads without a central separator bristled a number of road users, in particular bikers.
> 
> [...]
> 
> The discontent has moved up to Parliament. At the request of about fifty senators, a working group on road safety has been created in the Senate to "evaluate the usefulness of this measure," said one of its members, the senator (Les Républicains) of Haute-Saône , Michel Raison.
> 
> "I talk with my colleagues on all sides, we have never seen so much feedback [from voters in our constituencies] going in the same direction. There is a real protest," he says: "I demand that the Prime Minister do not sign the decree [setting the 80 km/h speed limit] until we reach our conclusions," expected this coming April.
> 
> [...]
> 
> With a "united front", the citizens' associations and the politicians hope to force the government to capitulate.
> 
> http://www.lemonde.fr/securite-rout...80-km-h-ne-desarment-pas_5251313_1655513.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polls: Anne Hidalgo loses 23 percentage points in 8 months
> 
> BFM TV
> February 2, 2018
> 
> *Anne Hidalgo gets only 18% of favorable opinions in the last barometer Elabe, and collapses among left-wing voters.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> Locally, the collapse of Anne Hidalgo is no less spectacular: in the space of 9 months, her share of positive opinions went from 35% to 16% among the inhabitants of the Paris Region.
> 
> [...]
> 
> "What was once perceived as true environmental convictions is now perceived as ideology. For many people, she's gone too far," explains Elabe's president Bernard Sananès to Les Echos.
> 
> [...]
> 
> http://www.bfmtv.com/politique/sondage-anne-hidalgo-chute-de-23-points-en-8-mois-1364382.html
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :cheers:
Click to expand...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The A6-A89 link near Lyon opens soon. This creates a new, all-motorway east-west route through the Lyon metropolitan area.


----------



## sotonsi

While they haven't taken all the old signs down (cf the E15 signs on the A6/A7 in Lyon even though the A46 is the continuously signed route), the E70 between Clermont-Ferrard and Frejus was signed along the northern route around Lyon via A89-A466-A432 (vs A72-A47-A46 southern route around Lyon) a couple of years ago.

It's odd they highlight the route to the A42, and not the A43 route (ie E70) on this map, because the latter is less intuitively benefiting, and benefiting more, from this route's completition.


----------



## parcdesprinces

:drool:.... :happy:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Snowfall paralyzes traffic in Île-de-France.


----------



## Sesto Elemento

A 4 minute timelapse showing the construction of the 6-lane overseas viaduct in Réunion. :cheers:






And here one of the big dikes built before and after the viaduct, that will have to resist the huge hurricane waves. It's one of the most sophisticated dikes in the world according to the explanations in the video.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Snow caused a record amount of traffic jams in Paris, with over 740 kilometers of traffic jam recorded. Some 15 - 20 centimeters of snow fell in a relatively short period of time.

Porte Maillot:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Trucks are banned from driving through the Île-de-France region. So they are queued onto A1 north of Paris.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

For two weeks now protesting farmers have blocked motorways in and around Toulouse. There are daily blockades on A20, A61, A62, A64 and A68, which paralyzes travel in the larger region.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20180207/why-are-french-farmers-blocking-roads-in-toulouse


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Trucks are banned from driving through the Île-de-France region. So they are queued onto A1 north of Paris.




Ride at Parc Astérix in the background?


----------



## parcdesprinces

ChrisZwolle said:


> Trucks are banned from driving through the Île-de-France region. So they are queued onto A1 north of Paris.


^^ :happy: :happy:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Trucks are still parked on several autoroutes leading into Île-de-France. 

There are 800 trucks parked on the two left lanes of A10 north of Orléans.


----------



## Bender

3cm of snow bring a country to a standstill. Pathetic.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Trucks are still parked on several autoroutes leading into Île-de-France.
> 
> There are 800 trucks parked on the two left lanes of A10 north of Orléans.


The motorway is clean from snow, so why are they forbidden to drive?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The tolled motorways appear to have adequate snow clearing, but perhaps the public operator DIR Île-de-France doesn't have adequate snow clearing? Google Maps reports that N118 is still closed, motorists were stuck overnight there but that was several days ago.

The Île-de-France region banned trucks, but they don't have any parking, so trucks were queued on the tolled motorways leading into the Île-de-France.


----------



## italystf

Also in Italy motorways are often better maintained than other roads in case of snowfall (including preventive salt).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Gorges du Verdon*

The _Gorges du Verdon_ is a large canyon in southeastern France, where the Verdon River crosses the mountains west of Castellane. 

There are two very scenic routes along the canyon, the Rive Gauche (left bank) and Rive Droite (right bank). I visited the Rive Droite in 2014, now it was time for the Rive Gauche. It is a one-way road that almost makes a full loop, the entrance point is almost at the same spot as the exit point.


Gorges du Verdon-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges du Verdon-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges du Verdon-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges du Verdon-13 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges du Verdon-17 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges du Verdon-18 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Snow has paralyzed traffic in the Languedoc.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*suicide lanes*

Some roads in France had "suicide lanes", a three-lane road where the center lane could be used in either direction (to be clear, these are not center turn lanes like those in North America).

I've only drove over one such road in recent years, in 2009 on the ex-N20 between Caussade and Montauban. This Street View image is from 2013, I don't know if it still exists.


----------



## Penn's Woods

I believe three-lane roads were common in North America in the 30s. But even then people were recognizing the danger.


----------



## verreme

^^ AFAIK CA-99 between Fresno and Bakersfield was a three-lane road, as featured in Alfred Hitchcock's _Psycho_. Don't know if there were any other roads with such layout.

In France, most of this roads, if not all of them, have disappeared. There used to be a long three-lane stretch north of Perpignan which was extremely helpful to get rid of caravans -now it's a 1+1 road with a median and there's a roundabout in the middle. Road D572 in the Camargue region did also have a very long three-lane stretch interrupted by several intersections, but it disappeared when the road was renewed in 2010 or so. Another now-gone stretch is one in N20 in the Pyrenees. In this case they just painted a solid line above the existing one.

I don't know if there were any other countries that used three-lane roads as systematically as France. In the UK such roads did also exist, but they weren't the norm.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> In France, most of this roads, if not all of them, have disappeared. There used to be a long three-lane stretch north of Perpignan which was extremely helpful to get rid of caravans -now it's a 1+1 road with a median and there's a roundabout in the middle.


There is a tendency in France to downgrade roads, especially those parallel to a toll road. N9 was quite a fast route from Narbonne to Perpignan. 

I drove N20 from Orléans to Vierzon in 2009 and 2015, it was made significantly less attractive, with lower speed limits (30 zones) and very steep speed bumps that makes caravans go 10 km/h. 

I understand that they want through traffic on the autoroute, that's what it is for, but the tolls lead people to shunpike. N20 used to be a quick and comfortable alternative from Paris to Vierzon. 



verreme said:


> I don't know if there were any other countries that used three-lane roads as systematically as France. In the UK such roads did also exist, but they weren't the norm.


Italy used them on controlled-access highways, some of the earlier autostrade had a three-lane configuration.


----------



## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> I believe three-lane roads were common in North America in the 30s. But even then people were recognizing the danger.


There are a lot of instances of the arrangement but it is a bit tricky to decide if it is just a passing lane or a short three-lane section... essentially always with a "preference" to one side (e.g. 2+1 but the 1 can use the middle to pass if free)

the relatively quickly disappearing route 185 in Quebec for example was pretty much like this...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N4*

A couple of photos of N4 in Eastern France, from Lunéville to Dombasle. This section opened as a _voie express_ in 1985.


N4-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N4-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


N4-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


N4-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


N4-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


N4-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


N4-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Sign error on N4-3!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

N4-2 is also nonstandard


----------



## Suburbanist

What is your favorite Alpine road pass in France?


----------



## Luki_SL

ChrisZwolle said:


> A couple of photos of N4 in Eastern France, from Lunéville to Dombasle. This section opened as a _voie express_ in 1985.
> 
> 
> N4-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Has that road been ever renovated since 1985 ?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think it has, these are just minor crack seals, few asphalt roads would be without potholes or repaired surfaces for 32 years. This looks like asphalt that is maybe 15 years old.


----------



## Shenkey

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some roads in France had "suicide lanes", a three-lane road where the center lane could be used in either direction (to be clear, these are not center turn lanes like those in North America).
> 
> I've only drove over one such road in recent years, in 2009 on the ex-N20 between Caussade and Montauban. This Street View image is from 2013, I don't know if it still exists.


There is still one in Crete , between Chania and Heraklion.


----------



## parcdesprinces

ChrisZwolle said:


> N20 between Caussade and Montauban
> [...]
> I don't know if it still exists.
> [...]
> https://i.imgur.com/6O4OzPU.jpg


It still exists...at least that was the case when I drove over there last month/week/etc .


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A29*

The easternmost segment of A29 has gotten shoulders in 2017. A 31 kilometer project was completed in 1 year to add hard shoulders.

This section of A29 opened to traffic in 2001, due to the low traffic volumes a shoulder was omitted during the initial construction to save money. The AADT is some 7,000 vehicles per day.

The Somme River Viaduct is still a two-lane structure though.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> A 31 kilometer project was completed in 1 year to add hard shoulders.


That was extremely fast. Compare it with times for enlargement works on some flat Italian motorways (A4 Turin-Milan and Venice-Trieste).


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> That was extremely fast. Compare it with times for enlargement works on some flat Italian motorways (A4 Turin-Milan and Venice-Trieste).


Adding shoulders and adding lanes are not exactly the same thing.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This is what it looked like before. It had a speed limit of 130 km/h.


A29-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


A29-25 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## arctic_carlos

I drove today A9 between the Spanish border and Le Boulou. The works to add a third lane in both directions are at full speed, including the widening of some tall viaducts. However, it is quite annoying to drive that section at the moment (sometimes they even need to close one lane, leaving just one open lane). Needless to say the truck share is really high, probably above 50%.


----------



## 3locations

Penn's Woods said:


> The D1340 on the top of the top map used to be the A340 if I'm not mistaken. Was the roadway itself downgraded or was it just renumbered?


You're right, they simplify the map . The first section is called A340 with 2.2 kilometers lenght! 
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoroute_A340_(France)


----------



## AvB

*Calais Eurotunnel - Rest Area Ghyvelde x3.2 *


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Alpe d'Huez*

I took some photos of the road to Alpe d'Huez. The ski resort is also famous for its 21 hairpins to get there. 

From a scenic perspective, I'd say it's not above average, there are mountain roads in the region that are much more scenic. It's a challenge for cyclists, but if you're not into that, I wouldn't recommend it as a "must see" destination.



Alpe-d'Huez-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Alpe-d'Huez-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Alpe d'Huez-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Alpe d'Huez-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


Alpe d'Huez-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


Alpe d'Huez-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*D4085 Route Napoléon*

D4085 (ex-N85) / Route Napoléon through the _Clue de Taulanne_ near Castellane. 


Route Napoléon - Clue de Taulanne-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Route Napoléon - Clue de Taulanne-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


Route Napoléon - Clue de Taulanne-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Late season snow in the Massif Central. This is N102 in Ardèche.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A15 Gennevilliers*

A section of the A15 bridgehead of the bridge across the Seine in Gennevilliers collapsed. A15 is closed towards Paris. This is one of the busiest bridges in Paris, there is no AADT figure available, but I would estimate it at 180,000 - 200,000 vehicles per day, based on a 170,000 traffic count farther north.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^It will take a few days to reopen A15 towards Paris :hide:


----------



## Luki_SL

The bridge across the Seine in Gennevilliers (A15) towards is still closed. There is no clear informations about reopening. The experts need about 48 hours to check the bridge construction.

more : http://www.linternaute.com/auto/conduite/1454192-a15-coupee-ou-jusqu-a-quand-quels-itineraires-bis/


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> A section of the A15 bridgehead of the bridge across the Seine in Gennevilliers collapsed. A15 is closed towards Paris. This is one of the busiest bridges in Paris, there is no AADT figure available, but I would estimate it at 180,000 - 200,000 vehicles per day, based on a 170,000 traffic count farther north.


Interesting, it looks like one of those bridgeheads constructed using reinforced ground embankments which are used increasingly. In Ireland it looks like most of the bridges are constructed that way rather than using standard reinforced concrete bridgeheads.

I always wonder how will those structures age.


----------



## Luki_SL

The bridge across the Seine in Gennevilliers (A15) towards Paris is reopened. It seems to be some roadworks on the bridgehead.










from : https://www.google.pl/maps/@48.9522635,2.2760553,15.5z/data=!5m1!1e1?hl=pl


----------



## MattiG

Luki_SL said:


> The bridge across the Seine in Gennevilliers (A15) towards Paris is reopened. It seems to be some roadworks on the bridgehead.


The local papers tell us that two of total four lanes of the southbound bridge were opened in Saturday at 70 km/h. The full recovery will take for several weeks.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A63*

The expansion of A63 in Southwestern France, between Biarritz and the Spanish border, was completed in late 2017. However for some unknown reason, the 3rd lane is still not open for traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N137 Nantes - Rennes*

N137 is a Route Nationale and _voie express_ in Western France. It currently consists of two sections, a 103 kilometer route between Rennes and Nantes and a section near La Rochelle. 

Originally, N137 formed a long north-south route from Saint-Malo to Bordeaux. Most of it was declassed. Three sections of N137 were built to expressway standards;

* D137 Saint-Malo -Rennes (61 km): 1971-1993 
* N137 Rennes - Nantes (103 km): 1977-1991
* N137 La Rochelle - Rochefort (28 km): 1967-1983

Here are some photos of N137 between Nantes and Rennes (northbound):



N137-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


N137-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


N137-12 by European Roads, on Flickr


N137-13 by European Roads, on Flickr


N137-16 by European Roads, on Flickr


N137-17 by European Roads, on Flickr


N137-22 by European Roads, on Flickr


N137-23 by European Roads, on Flickr


N137-28 by European Roads, on Flickr


N137-33 by European Roads, on Flickr


N137-40 by European Roads, on Flickr


N137-41 by European Roads, on Flickr


N137-43 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*D177 Axe Rennes - Redon*

A 2.7 kilometer section of D177 (Axe Rennes - Redon) opened to traffic near Pipriac on 31 May:



















Source: https://www.ouest-france.fr/bretagn...2-voies-en-plus-entre-rennes-et-redon-5819053


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A63*

Six lanes finally opened up on A63 between Biarritz and the Spanish border :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ To be clear, the photo was taken in spring (probably March?), given the foliage of the trees, but evidently only some portions of A63 had six lanes at that time. The official press release was from 19 June: A63 entre Biriatou – Biarritz Mise en service de 22 km à 2x3 voies


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N82*

The missing link of 2x2 _voie express_ of N82 between Neulise and Balbigny will open on 6 July. This creates a complete four lane road link between Roanne and Lyon / St-Étienne / Clermont-Ferrand.

https://www.leprogres.fr/loire-42-e...lise-balbigny-sera-ouverte-vendredi-6-juillet


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> *21 December 2017*
> 
> The first 8 kilometer section of A304 in Northern France opened to traffic today. It runs from Rocroi to Le Piquet, just south of the Belgian border. It is part of the Charleroi - Reims upgrade in both countries.
> 
> http://www.lunion.fr/66673/article/...verture-ce-jeudi-du-premier-troncon-de-l-a304


Already damaged:

http://www.lunion.fr/94390/article/...eine-ouverte-et-deja-des-malfacons-sur-l-a304

Edit: The article reports that the next section will be opened in July.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A304 Ardennes*

The remaining section of A304 from Charleville-Mézières to Le Piquet in Northern France will open to traffic on 23 July, according to this paywalled L'Union article:

http://www.lunion.fr/98932/article/2018-06-26/l-autoroute-miseen-service-le-23-juillet


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A154 + A120*

A DUP (declaration of public utility) has been issued for the A154 project on 4 July. 

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affi...JO&categorieLien=id&idJO=JORFCONT000037152137

The DUP includes circa 90 kilometers of A154 between Nonancourt and A10 near Allainville. It will bypass Dreux and Chartres. It will form a regional bypass on the west side of the Paris region (Île-de-France).

At the same time the A120 has been announced as the bypass of Dreux, from A154 at Vert-en-Drouais to N154 east of Dreux.


----------



## MichiH

^^ There is already a short section of A154 near Louviers, just south of Rouen. Will N154 up to Nonancourt also be upgraded to A154?


----------



## Bastiaan85

ChrisZwolle said:


> A DUP (declaration of public utility) has been issued for the A154 project on 4 July.
> 
> https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affi...JO&categorieLien=id&idJO=JORFCONT000037152137
> The DUP includes circa 90 kilometers of A154 between Nonancourt and A10 near Allainville


I think Allainville should be Trancrainville here:
- the A10 Allainville is much more to the North than the N154
- the Allainville next to Dreux would be a more reasonable candidate to be mentioned in the DUP as it's close to the N154 and N12
- the village Trancrainville that's mentioned in the DUP as one end of the route is actually at the end of the N154 _and _next to the A10


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, you're right. Trancrainville is the terminus of the DUP.

Allaines-Mervilliers at A10 is also mentioned, it is close to Trancrainville.


----------



## Cyril

What a great achievement it will be! At last! This area has been waiting for it for ages...30 years at least.
I often drive between Dreux and Nonancourt and it is really painful...those traffic lights in Nonancourt make awful traffic jams.
A154 motorway will be a toll section though. Still, without any toll I guess we would have to wait for another 20 years before works start. I wonder if A120 will be toll free?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ I wonder if they're going to renumber A154 to a 2-digit number. If it really stretches from A13 to A10, it will be far longer than any other 3-digit autoroute in France. It would be approximately 150 kilometers long.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N82*



ChrisZwolle said:


> *6 July 2018*
> 
> The missing link of the N82 2x2 _voie express_ opened to traffic in Central France, a 5 kilometer section from Neulise to Balbigny. This completes the N82 as a four lane expressway from N7 to A89 and connects Roanne to the motorway network.
> 
> https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/tra...ndredi-entre-le-sud-de-roanne-et-l-1530821534


A photo:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A507, Marseille*

La Provence reports that L2 / A507 in Marseille will open in its entirety in October: https://www.laprovence.com/actu/en-...lement-ouverte-au-mois-doctobre-a-pusher.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N88 Le Puy*

The bypass of Le Puy is planned to open next week (16 July has been mentioned now).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A10 Orléans*

A declaration of public utility (DUP) has been issued for the A10 expansion at Orléans on 9 July. It is planned to widen A10 from 2x3 to 2x4 lanes between the A19 and A71 interchanges (16 km).

http://loiret.gouv.fr/Actualites/Co...vaux-d-amenagement-de-l-A10-au-nord-d-Orleans


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N88 Le Puy*

The bypass of Le Puy-en-Velay has been inaugurated today. It opens to traffic on 16 July. 

This is a significant improvement for through traffic along N88, Le Puy was one of the largest cities without a bypass on that route. The travel time saving may be up to 20 minutes.










https://france3-regions.francetvinf...-du-puy-velay-ouvrira-16-juillet-1511945.html

https://www.leprogres.fr/haute-loir...tre-elisabeth-borne-inaugure-le-contournement


----------



## VITORIA MAN

i like the french tourist signs on motorways


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Severe thunderstorms resulted in flash floods in southwestern France, flooding A63 and A64 early this morning.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A69 Castres*

A Declaration of Public Utility (DUP) has been issued for the Verfeil - Castres motorway, which is now planned as A69. It will run for 54 km and replace N126. 

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affi...JO&categorieLien=id&idJO=JORFCONT000037226100

A separate DUP has been issued on 22 December 2017 for the A680 twinning from A68 to Verfeil. They will likely be merged into a single road number: A69.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A75 widening*

A map of the A75 widening south of Clermont-Ferrand, which according to the project website, will be completed by late 2020.

https://a75.aprr.com/le-projet/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A304*

The remaining 21 kilometer section of A304 near Charleville-Mézières in Northern France has been inaugurated today by transportation minister Elisabeth Borne.

It's not yet open to traffic though, some reports say next Monday.


----------



## ChasingCars

ChrisZwolle said:


> The remaining 21 kilometer section of A304 near Charleville-Mézières in Northern France has been inaugurated today by transportation minister Elisabeth Borne.
> 
> It's not yet open to traffic though, some reports say next Monday.


Thanks. I am thinking to use this new road as an alternative for my holiday trip to France for the next weekend.
Do you think the road will be officially open by then? 
And does this new road start straight at the French-Belgian border?


----------



## MichiH

ChasingCars said:


> And does this new road start straight at the French-Belgian border?


The section close to the border was already in service. The section opened begins about 14km from the border.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N134 Pau - Somport*

The Spanish minister of transportation was in Paris today to urge the French to upgrade N134 to the Somport Tunnel. It is a major trans-Pyrenean axis but the approach on the French side is of low standard and time-consuming.

http://fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPrensa/N...ones-con/75c26791-009a-41ec-be81-831d11c203d8

https://www.lavanguardia.com/vida/2...pana-en-la-proxima-ley-de-movilidad-gala.html

Personally I don't think a cross-Pyrenean motorway is needed, but an upgrade is definitely needed in the foothills, in particular the Pau - Oloron section.

The distance between A64/A65 and the south side of Oloron is only 25 kilometers in a straight line.

However, getting around Pau and Oloron adds a significant amount of distance, the signed route to the Somport is not 25, but 55 kilometers and takes at least an hour. This section between A64 and Oloron has no less than 27 (!) roundabouts. 

They should build a motorway or expressway straight from A64/A65 to the south side of Oloron. This would significantly reduce travel times and improves safety on N134. 

I don't think the rest of the route into the mountains requires much upgrades. The traffic volumes aren't there to justify a motorway upgrade, I think a passing lane here and there will do the job.

Current situation:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A480 Grenoble*

Le Dauphine reports that a declaration of public utility has been issued on 23 July for the six lane expansion of A480 through Grenoble, which is valued at € 400 million, of which € 300 million is paid by AREA. The main expansion works are planned for 2019-2022, though they are already reconstructing the median this fall.

https://www.ledauphine.com/isere-su...deau-la-declaration-d-utilite-publique-signee









By http://travauxa480.aprr.fr/


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## ChrisZwolle

*D612 Béziers ring road*

A new interchange opened to traffic today on the Béziers ring road in Southern France. This section is part of D612 (ex-N112), the interchange replaces a roundabout at ex-N9 for through traffic, on the northeast side of Béziers (Rond-pont Edgar Fauré). It was the last roundabout on D612 around Béziers between the endpoints of the bypass.









By: https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/tra...it-fluidifier-la-rocade-de-beziers-1532627851


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The remaining 21 kilometer section of A304 near Charleville-Mézières in Northern France has been inaugurated today by transportation minister Elisabeth Borne.
> 
> It's not yet open to traffic though, some reports say next Monday.


Tous les voyants sont au vert pour une ouverture le 31 juillet - Green lights for opening on 31st July


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## ChrisZwolle

A304 will be pretty interesting for traffic from the Benelux heartlands to the south of France. It's a good alternative for A31 via Luxembourg/Metz. 

For example from Amsterdam/The Hague/Rotterdam/Antwerp/Brussels/Charleroi to Dijon/Lyon/Marseille. I can see why they advertise it as a Rotterdam - Marseille corridor, it's slightly shorter and has less congestion than via Luxembourg.


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## ChrisZwolle

MASSIVE congestion on A7-A9 in Southern France. There has been a severe accident on A9 near Leucate, requiring 2 rescue helicopters. According to Google Maps there is a 70 kilometer traffic jam behind it, plus the usual long delays on A7. 

Vinci reports 12 hours of travel time between Lyon and Perpignan at 11 a.m. which is the longest I have ever seen. Though it will be reduced once they clear that accident scene.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Rouen*

D6015 (ex-N15) has several low clearance tunnels in Rouen. Dutch people like to wreck their trailers and RVs there.


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## ChrisZwolle

A304 will open tomorrow morning at 11 a.m.: https://france3-regions.francetvinf...304-officiellement-ouverte-mardi-1519968.html


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## ChrisZwolle

Some more news;

*A61 expansion*

The inquiry commission has issued a positive advice for the A61 expansion. They expect a formal declaration of public utility in Q4 2018, and construction on both ends of the project will commence immediately, with 35 km being under expansion by late 2018.

The A61 widening stretches from A66 to A9, the first phase includes each end of the project.

https://corporate.vinci-autoroutes....voies-la61-avis-favorable-commission-denquete


*A10 expansion*

The 6 kilometer A10 widening on the south side of Tours was completed last Friday. The autoroute has been widened from 4 to 6 lanes from Chambray-lès-Tours to the A85 interchange. Construction was finished half a year ahead of schedule, it took 3 years. It was a fairly complex widening with many bridges needing reconstruction in a tight space.

http://www.info-tours.fr/articles/t...bray-veigne-l-a10-a-3-voies-c-est-maintenant/


*A11 expansion*

The public inquiry for the A11 expansion around Angers has been completed. It is planned to widen a 6 kilometer stretch of A11 around the north side of Angers to six lanes. 

It is a € 50 million expansion project, most of the cost is due to a second span for the bridge across the Maine River. The nearby land tunnel has been designed for six lanes.

This portion of A11 is fairly new, it opened to traffic in 2008 to bypass the urban expressway through Angers.

https://corporate.vinci-autoroutes....d-dangers-3e-voie-bilan-concertation-publique


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## g.spinoza

Is there, or has ever been, a plan to connect A61 and A64 in order to avoid passing in Toulouse? Saint-Gaudens/Pamiers/Carcassonne would be to most obvious route, but even a more northerly one (say, Castelnaudary/Auterive/Carbonne) would serve the purpose.


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## ChrisZwolle

I have never heard of such a plan, but it would make sense. Toulouse has outgrown its ring road, especially A620. 

A route closer to Toulouse would be most viable I think, it can capture more regional traffic and construction cost is lower due to the terrain being less hilly and it requires less new kilometrage of autoroute compared to a route via Pamiers.

A61 is quite an important motorway, it is the only east-west motorway in Southern France, the nearest alternatives are C-25 in Spain or A89, which are 450 kilometers apart. A61 also carries north south traffic, it is frequently used by travelers coming from A20 and going towards the Perpignan area and Catalonia.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N2 Paris - Laon*

N2 is being upgraded to an expressway. One of the projects are the bypasses of Gondreville and Vaumoise, which are planned to be completed by late 2018.

On 6 July, the first carriageway of the Gondreville bypass opened to traffic, which is evidently some 3.5 km long.

http://www.lunion.fr/100810/article...2-deux-voies-ouvertes-entre-l-aisne-et-l-oise


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> I have never heard of such a plan, but it would make sense. Toulouse has outgrown its ring road, especially A620.
> 
> A route closer to Toulouse would be most viable I think, it can capture more regional traffic and construction cost is lower due to the terrain being less hilly and it requires less new kilometrage of autoroute compared to a route via Pamiers.
> 
> A61 is quite an important motorway, it is the only east-west motorway in Southern France, the nearest alternatives are C-25 in Spain or A89, which are 450 kilometers apart. A61 also carries north south traffic, it is frequently used by travelers coming from A20 and going towards the Perpignan area and Catalonia.


The "Rocade arc-en-ciel" was supposed to follow such a route, but I don't think they are going to extend it that far.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *N10:* south of Touverac – north of Chevanceaux 4.7km (2014 to 2018) – project – map


Partial opening in late 2018, 2x2 completion in Mid 2019.

http://www.nouvelle-aquitaine.devel...hevanceaux-amenagement-a-2x2-voies-a9975.html
http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Route_nationale_française_10#Poitiers_-_Bordeaux




MichiH said:


> *N1:* La Possession-North – Saint-Denis-West 12.5km (December 2013 to 2018) – project – map


Any news about the project on Reunion? Still expected to be opened in 2018?


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## ChrisZwolle

Pretty long stretches are still missing, I'd say there is no way it will be completed in 2018 and maybe not even 2019.

This photo is from June 2018:


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## Minato ku

g.spinoza said:


> Is there, or has ever been, a plan to connect A61 and A64 in order to avoid passing in Toulouse? Saint-Gaudens/Pamiers/Carcassonne would be to most obvious route, but even a more northerly one (say, Castelnaudary/Auterive/Carbonne) would serve the purpose.





ChrisZwolle said:


> I have never heard of such a plan, but it would make sense. Toulouse has outgrown its ring road, especially A620.



I think you guys can forget about that. France has now become a very anti-car-driving country, with extremely powerful "Green" and anti-automobile lobbies now trumping all political decisions. The ministry of transport and public infrastructure was even disbanded in 2007 and merged into the ministry of environment, which was pompously renamed "Ministry for an Ecological and Solidary Transition" by Macron (a phrase coined after the term "demographic transition", because in the mind of those rebranding the ministry France is supposed to operate an "ecological transition" akin to the demographic transition, with the typically fuzzy French concept of "solidarity" added for good measure).

Of course the people promoting this "ecological and solidary transition" themselves never use public transports and have air-conditioned official cars with chauffeurs and a lifestyle far removed from the middle classes (much higher use of airplanes than the average Joe in particular). The minister in charge of the ministry for an ecological and solidary transition is a former TV star known for his love of big cars, helicopters, and gas-guzzling speedboats, but who has somehow reconverted himself as an improbable defender of planet Earth and fighter against global warming, so the whole thing is beyond hypocritical and ridiculous, but whatever. :sly:

This anti-automobile lobby is so strong that the government is not even lifting a finger to decrease taxes on gas despite the big increase in oil prices, which would have been unthinkable only 10 years ago (they would have decreased the taxes on gas by a few cents to compensate for the increase in oil prices). Those suffering the most from these holier-than-though green policies are the working classes who live in the outskirts of cities and depend on cars, but the government doesn't give a damn about them. They behave a bit like the coastal elites in the US royally ignoring the people who live in between. Sooner or later this will lead to the election of an extremist populist à la Salvini/Wilders as president of France. :sleepy:

So forget about this motorway. I'm returning from Spain, over there they love motorways, they have so many of them everywhere, still building some new motorways in the Spanish Pyrénées, then you cross the French border and suddenly it feels so backward compared to the Spanish side. As little motorways as possible seems to be the motto in France. What's more, the stranglehold of the Green lobby over the French state has also led to a general neglect of road maintenance in recent years (each of the 101 departments of France possessed a public works head office, called DDE, and they were responsible for the impeccable state of the French roads, but they have all been disbanded when the ministry of public infrastructure was disbanded and merged into the environment ministry). Spanish roads looked to me in a better condition than French roads, which wasn't the case only 10 years ago. 

And I think the situation will only worsen in France, due to the huge power of the Green and anti-automobile lobbies. Only the toll motorways are in good condition because they are private roads and they charge so much. The public roads are falling apart. Everybody is complaining about it. 

For the same reason, I think you can also forget about a motorway linking Oloron-Sainte-Marie and A64. This will not happen in the next 50 years. The Toulouse-Barcelona motorway was also definitely cancelled. There will forever be no motorway between Tarascon-sur-Ariège and the Spanish border.

As for the link between A61 and A64, as one forumer said it could have been ensured by the Arc-en-Ciel orbital motorway (D980), but this too has been frozen and will never be extended to A61.

The situation in Greater Toulouse is becoming worse and worse as each year goes by. The population of the Toulouse metro area grew by 30% between 1999 and 2015, it's the 3rd fastest growing metro area of more than 1 million inhabitants in Europe, yet absolutely no new large capacity road has been built in the metro area since the 1990s, and there are no projects for the coming years. The situation is totally frozen due to the anti-automobile lobby, and instead they have decided to spend billions of euros for an ill conceived 3rd line of the Métro that will not really alleviate road congestion because the route the mayor has single-handledly picked for the 3rd line is beyond ridiculous (servicing low density neighborhoods instead of high density ones, not even servicing the Toulouse airport and the largest hospital in the metro area, detours and long turns instead of straight lines which considerably lengthen future trips on that line, etc).










Not to mention that they are investing everything on one single line, as if one single Métro line could solve the transportation issues of an extremely sprawling metro area of 1.4 million people (this sort of magical thinking when it comes to transportation issues is unfortunately extremely frequent in France; very little pragmatism or serious analysis of the situation). I think there hasn't been a politician in the Toulouse metro area who has dared to propose a road project in 20 years now. Even the mayor of Toulouse, who was for a long time in favor of a new eastern motorway bypass further away from the city for Mediterranean-Atlantic traffic (a bit like around Valencia, Spain) is now not speaking about it anymore. If someone proposed completing D980 to A61 they would look at him/her as people in Texas would look at a Texan politician proposing a huge extension of public transportation in Houston.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ I've looked up the number of DUPs for motorway / expressway projects. Both new construction and expansion:

Déclarations d'Utilité Publique.

2004: 9
2005: 11
2006: 12
2007: 10
2008: 7
2009: 4
2010: 2
2011: 6
2012: 3
2013: 5
2014: 2
2015: 3
2016: 5
2017: 3
2018: 7 (so far)

The number of DUPs in 2018 so far is the highest in 10 years. The Hollande government also did not proceed many projects so there isn't much that is shovel ready in the next few years. The Macron government said it wants to reconsider many infrastructure projects (not just roads, also TGV), however so far they have issued more DUPs than in previous years.

What is apparent though, is the total lack of investment of the French government in the autoroute system. Virtually all expansions are paid through tolls of extension of concessions. Many toll-free expansion projects are also funded through the concessions of toll roads.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A10 Tours - Poitiers*

Vinci reports that a Declaration of Public Utility (DUP) has been issued for the widening of A10 between Tours and Poitiers.

The first phase contains 24 kilometers of A10 between Veigné and Sainte-Maure-de-Touraine. This is a continuation of the recently completed A10 expansion in the southern suburbs of Tours. Construction will commence in early 2019.

The entire widening project extends from Veigné (A85) to Poitiers-Sud.

Project website: http://a10-poitiersveigne.fr/

Press release: http://a10-poitiersveigne.fr/actual...utoroute-a10-entre-poitiers-et-veigne-declare

News report: https://france3-regions.francetvinf...lite-publique-vienne-indre-loire-1523136.html


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## ChrisZwolle

*D30 voie express*

A section of _voie express_ opened to traffic in Yvelines department, west of Paris. It is part of D30, from N12 to Plaisir, which is an outer suburb of Paris. It opened in early August and construction took 3 years (and cost € 87.5 million).










https://actu.fr/ile-de-france/plaisir_78490/yvelines-plaisir-rd-30-enfin-sur-2x2-voies_18108817.html


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## Minato ku

ChrisZwolle said:


> The number of DUPs in 2018 so far is the highest in 10 years.


The number of DUPs in itself tells very little. Today's DUPs concern micro-projets (1 km here, 2 km there) only to improve motorways in a few urban areas, or they concern enlargement of already existing motorways. The era of new motorway construction is at an end, so has decreed the centralized power in Paris due to the Green lobby. Only marginal tweaks in the motorway network will now take place.

The new motorways that are still mooted, like Toulouse-Castres, are those which have been on hold for many decades and which the local authorities vociferously support. Other vital motorways are abandoned (like the Saint-Etienne - Lyon motorway, to replace the derelict old one which is both totally congested and dangerous). The local authorities were not vociferous enough.

In other parts of France, it had to take the largest strikes and public demonstrations ever in French Guiana, with total paralysis of the territory, violence, and quasi-sequestration of a minister sent by Paris so that the eggheads in the central ministries finally accept to build the Cayenne-Kourou motorway (well, they've said they would to quell the demonstrations, but let's see whether it will really happen now that the French Guianese are back in their homes).

You have to understand that at the moment it is considered far more important in the 'Ministry for an Ecological and Solidary Transition' to introduce new Slovenian bears in the French Pyrénées against the will of the valley inhabitants rather than to build new motorways. Priorities my dear boy, priorities (as a former British PM would have said).


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## ChrisZwolle

The 2018 DUPs I included weren't just 1-2 km projects, but rather quite significant projects;

*new construction*
* A355 Strasbourg bypass
* A154 + A120 Nonancourt - Dreux - Trancrainville
* A69 Verfeil - Castres

*widenings*
* A75 Clermont-Ferrand - Le Crest: 2x3
* A41 Annecy-Nord - Saint-Martin-Bellevue: 2x3
* A10 Chevilly - Ingré (A19-A71): 2x4
* A480 through Grenoble: 2x3

And then there was the DUP of A10 Tours - Poitiers. Only the A41 DUP of this list could be considered minor.

It is true though, that the French national government has reduced its responsibility for developing the French road network to an absolute minimum. Maintenance levels on non-tolled roads are mediocre and new non-tolled construction is at a very low level, mostly geared towards RCEA and Bretagne. Nearly all motorway projects are financed through tolls nowadays. Projects like A304 in the Ardennes have become very rare.

It's interesting that the vast majority of the ex-route nationale _voie express_ projects were done by the departments and regions after the roads were transferred during the 1973 and 2006 declassing of routes nationales, not by the national government, except in Bretagne.


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## g.spinoza

There are a lot of autoroutes in France which are poorly connected one another.

It's unnerving to drive spotlessly through A51 and then lose oneself inside Aix-en-Provence in order to get on the A8. The same goes for A7 and A49 through Valence, A41 and A48 thorugh Grenoble, A41 and A43 through Chambery, A54 through Arles, A35 through Ostheim.


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## sotonsi

^^ While they have many plans to upgrade various Voie Express to free Autoroute (N165->A82, N51->A34, etc), none of them have happened as there's little benefit in doing so as the voie express tend to be well built, standards issues like shoulder width are minor problems on those roads not worth the bother to fix unless fixing something else too, and the 'blue line' is something that matters little in the age of sat-nav.

The A79 upgrade of the N79 is more likely to happen - parts are still in need of upgrade, and the magic word 'peage' is involved, so there's incentive to upgrade even the bits that are already perfectly serviceable voie express.

Most of the gaps/planned upgrades can't be tolled as they'd be urban free bits even if they were autoroute, or are on already-free autroute (A34, A81, A82, etc) so they are unlikely to get the upgrades to become autoroutes unless France goes for just declaring certain voie express roads to be autoroute, perhaps after some upgrades where standards are too low (eg closing slip roads where there's too many), and then just changing the signs.


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## [email protected]

However, for Grenoble the works will start to widen the A480 and reorganize the interchange N87/A480 









For Chambery, there is a project to modify the interchange N201 -> A41/A43









For Arles there is a project to bypass the expressways N113 and N572 and separate local and national/international traffics










In Aix en Provence, yes there is an issue with 2 "difficult" interchanges but in Valence or in Alsace I don't see what is unnerving...


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## ChrisZwolle

N296 in Aix-en-Provence has some substandard situations. This exit for example, I once saw a near-accident when someone had his turn signal on, not to turn off at the actual interchange, but braked hard to take this tiny exit just before it.


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## [email protected]

Yes, you're right, this section is quite dangerous and there is a project to upgrade it into a "real" expressway...
http://www.paca.developpement-durab...a-rn296-et-mise-au-statut-de-route-r1474.html
http://www.paca.developpement-durab...synthese_rn296_200x340_03_01_b.compressed.pdf

Your video with the issue you mentioned 
https://youtu.be/KITmT-4uxZI


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## g.spinoza

[email protected] said:


> Is it really “unnerving” for you to take an (sub)urban expressway between two highways when you are going through a city in France ?
> 
> What annoys you ?
> The interchanges ? The speed limited on expressways ? To share the road with local traffic ? Toll barrier ? ... ?


Don't get me wrong, I think French autoroutes are great. It's just the connections which aren't.

Motorways must be a kind of system on its own, it must not intermix with lower grade roads. The Aix-en-Provence situation in particular is ridiculous: you must NOT clog city roads just to go from one motorway to another. It defies the very purpose of a motorway network. Also, it features at least one hellish curve with slope, which is a magnet for jams and accidents.

Again, I don't want to insult you or your country. Don't take it personally. Some of this situations also happens in Italy (A24-A14 for example). It's just that in France they seem a little too common.


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## ChrisZwolle

Some large cities also lack proper bypasses for through traffic. In Paris or Bordeaux you have to mix with urban commuters on expressways (N104, N230) or heavily overburdened urban motorways (A3, A86). 

For example coming from Benelux you can't reach major north-south routes (A10, A20, A71, A77) without going through Paris. The "Grand Contournement" is so far out that it is only useful if you want to bypass only a quadrant (for example Lille to Lyon). 

All the ring roads of Paris are very urban in character, even the Francilienne isn't exactly a high-standard motorway for through traffic, it's mostly an urban expressway with heavy traffic.

I found that the best way to get through Paris is on the west side, using N118 and A86, or taking D910 to the Périphérique and then A1. These routes are not as congested as the east side of Paris and the A86 Duplex Tunnel means that you don't have to mix with trucks and RVs.


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## [email protected]

g.spinoza said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think French autoroutes are great. It's just the connections which aren't.
> 
> Motorways must be a kind of system on its own, it must not intermix with lower grade roads. The Aix-en-Provence situation in particular is ridiculous: you must NOT clog city roads just to go from one motorway to another. It defies the very purpose of a motorway network. Also, it features at least one hellish curve with slope, which is a magnet for jams and accidents.
> 
> Again, I don't want to insult you or your country. Don't take it personally. Some of this situations also happens in Italy (A24-A14 for example). It's just that in France they seem a little too common.


I don’t take it personally, I didn't have been offended, it was a real question, I really wanted to understand what was bothering you. I know that the network is perfectible because historically it has been designed on “city connections”. 

Sometimes a bypass has been added to disconnected local and national/international traffics like in Reims, Angers and recently in Montpellier but in some cities, now, it’s too expensive (Aix en Provence, Grenoble, Chambery…) due to the relief and so modifications will be minor (closing of local inputs/outputs in Aix en Provence, widening in Grenoble, restructuring of an interchange in Cahmbery…). But for example in Valence, in Arles or in Alsace, yes I agree that it’s unpleasant but not really annoying except when you are going through the city during the rush hours but I understand your point. However in Alsace I don’t think that the upgrade of the expressway to a highway will change something…


Reims










Angers










Montpellier (now the main issue, worst than in Aix en Provence, is the connection between the A750 and A9)


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## g.spinoza

[email protected] said:


> But for example in Valence, in Arles or in Alsace, yes I agree that it’s unpleasant but not really annoying except when you are going through the city during the rush hours but I understand your point. However in Alsace I don’t think that the upgrade of the expressway to a highway will change something…


This is true, problems in Aix-en-Provence and Valence are very different.

In Aix-en-Provence, in particular, the problem is not the substandard N296 (at least, not the main problem). The problem is that the interconnection A51-A8 is partial, from the North you can only go east.
Do you know why this choice was made when the motorways were built? Or if they are planning to add ramps westbound?


----------



## [email protected]

You mean, from A51 north, you can't go to A8 west !?
I was not aware of this issue but it seems this connection is ongoing (the works will start end of 2018). 



















https://bifurcation-a8-a51.vinci-autoroutes.com/fr


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## g.spinoza

^^ Ah, that's so much better. It will still lack the connection from A51 south to A8 west but at least it's an improvement.

Thanks!


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## LtBk

Is France the strictest country in Europe when it comes to speed enforcement?


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## ChrisZwolle

I think Belgium took that title under their current government.... They are in the process of rolling out average speed checks on hundreds of roads.


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## MichiH

I think Switzerland is stricter.


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## verreme

^^ In Switzerland it varies heavily. On A1 between Lausanne and Genève there's a speed camera like every kilometer and no one dares to speed, however on A13 there are almost none and driving 140-150 is common.



LtBk said:


> Is France the strictest country in Europe when it comes to speed enforcement?


I haven't been to the Benelux but compared to Germany, Italy or Spain the level of enforcement in France is ridiculous.


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## g.spinoza

verreme said:


> I haven't been to the Benelux but compared to Germany, Italy or Spain the level of enforcement in France is ridiculous.


Ridiculous bad or ridiculous good?


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## MichiH

^^ Bad. I got more speeding tickets from France (5 in 2 years) than from Germany. I really drive a lot in Germany compared to France and really try not to speed in France. And they are much more expensive (~90€ vs. 10€).


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## verreme

^^ Plus speed cameras have very low tolerance compared to other countries. And on motorways there's a lot of police with handheld laser guns which you can't avoid since they can measure your speed from 1km away. Now they're setting up _a lot_ of average speed checks. 

At least France didn't have funny speed limits like Italy or Spain where the speed drops from 90 or 100 to 60 or 50 at every intersection. But now with the 80 km/h speed limit on rural roads this is no longer true. France has good roads and drivers (well except in the southeast) but police pressure is insane. I've driven a lot in Spain, Italy, Germany or the UK and never seen such a level of enforcement.


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## ChrisZwolle

I also got several speeding tickets in France a few years ago, all for 1-3 km/h over the speed limit. That's € 45. I use Waze now, just to avoid an inadvertent speeding offense. It's not like I'm racing through France but they have installed a crazy amount of speed cameras and now also reduced the speed limit on the roads with the most speed cameras (ex-route nationales).


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## MichiH

^^ My tickets were for 4 or 5 km/h over the limit.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ The fine is € 45 for offenses up to 20 km/h over the limit outside of city limits, but € 90 within. And the Boulevard Périphérique in Paris counts as inside the city limits, so driving 1 km/h over the 70 km/h limit results in a € 90 fine.


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## Kanadzie

^^ and wasn't the limit on the Periph 90 km/h only recently?


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## MichiH

^^^^ My last ticket was within city limites (well, within a small village). I thought that the 2016/17 tickets were 90 € too - outside of city limits - but I might be wrong.

The fine raises if you don't pay within 7 weeks.


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## ChrisZwolle

Most speed cameras appear to be signed beforehand though. I haven't seen many that weren't announced by some sign. 

Maybe they should put up signs similar to those in Scandinavia.










Last year I got flashed by a camera on N83 south of Besançon. But I was pretty sure I wasn't going over the speed limit and an oncoming vehicle passed me at the same time. The speed camera was on my side of the road but I never got any speeding ticket, I guess it was for the other direction. I haven't gotten a speeding ticket in a couple of years now. Over the past 10 years I got 3 speeding tickets, all in France in 2014-2015.


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## LtBk

Someone on a internet forum claim the French central gov gets over 5 billion Euro in speeding fines year. Is this true? The French approach towards speed enforcement is ridiculous IMO.


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## Stuu

verreme said:


> At least France didn't have funny speed limits like Italy or Spain where the speed drops from 90 or 100 to 60 or 50 at every intersection


Sorry for off-topic, but having just driven a lot in Spain recently and come across those speed restrictions at intersections and on sharp corners.. does anyone pay attention to them? it wasn't obvious if they were. Are they ever enforced?


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## jdb.2

Radars in France are announces by this sign as far as I know.








Maybe the problem is they arent very recognizable for foreigners, they look like inconspicuous gray boxes, while in other countries they have a recognizable shape, so you're never sure when and if you actually passed one.


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## verreme

Stuu said:


> does anyone pay attention to them? it wasn't obvious if they were. Are they ever enforced?


No and sometimes.



jdb.2 said:


> Radars in France are announces by this sign as far as I know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the problem is they arent very recognizable for foreigners, they look like inconspicuous gray boxes, while in other countries they have a recognizable shape, so you're never sure when and if you actually passed one.


The problem with these signs is that they are sometimes very far from the speed camera, so you end up not knowing the exact location. You see the sign, pay attention to the speedometer, relax because you think you got past the box, and flash ka-ching! In Italy, Sweden or the UK, to cite countries with very different approaches to road safety, speed cameras have a sign right next to them.

French authorities seem not to want drivers where speed cameras are, creating a paranoia state of mind where every road _may_ be watched. In practice this has made people lift their right foot off, but there are so many speed cameras and they have such a low tolerance that even the most law-abiding drivers can get a ticket just because they got distracted.

What is most shocking is that merely 20 years ago there wasn't any speed enforcement _at all_ on French roads. Speed enforcement equiment was not very widespread anywhere in the world back then, but in many countries the police was more or less watching the road. In France it was not uncommon to drive 200 km/h on motorways. So drivers educated before 2003 (when the "war on speed" started) have gone through many tickets until they have changed their behavior...


----------



## LtBk

Is it because of lobbying from anti-speeding groups and the police? I didn't know excessive speeding was common in France back than.


----------



## Minato ku

LtBk said:


> The French approach towards speed enforcement is ridiculous IMO.


This is not a speed enforcement approach. This is a culture war on car drivers waged by powerful anti-automobile lobbies (uniting both road security leagues, environmentalists, and good old Marxists opposed to the individualism and freedom of the car culture). We've talked about it here before. This movement is now as strong and crazy as the prohibitionist lobby in the US back in the 1920s.

I would say that driving a car in France now is seen as almost as sinful as smoking a cigarette in the US. If you're a car driver, you're assumed to be a delinquent on probation.

What's tragic is the people who wage this culture war have managed to set the agenda (a bit like the war on tobacco or abortion in the US, or alcohol in the 1920s), and so it has become politically incorrect to challenge them. They are on the "good side of history", and if you defend car drivers or speed you are on the wrong side of history. 

That's why almost no politician criticize the excess of the road security lobby, and in fact each politician, local or national, is trying to outdo each other and propose ever more stringent measures. Again very similar to the US where they have other pet peeves.

In Toulouse for instance, they lowered the speed limit on the Périphérique ring road from 110 to 90 km/h. And now, pushing their extremism ever more, they have also decreased the speed limit from 130 to 110 km/h on the tolled motorway north of the city (the Toulouse-Paris motorway) up to 15 km north of the Toulouse ring road. Absolutely insane! You pay an expensive toll and you can drive only at 110 km !! This started only last winter.

I suppose next they will decrease the speed to 70 on the Périphérique of Toulouse, and 90 on the tolled motorway north of the city.

The Left-wing opposition has not criticized this measure by the mayor of Toulouse. It's not PC to criticize harsh measures against car drivers.

Also, in France not only you have to pay a fine, but French drivers ALSO lose points on their driving licenses. It's like the 3 strikes and you're out rule in the US. In France, only 6 speeding tickets and you can lose your driving license.

The result of this is there is now an insanely high number of people in France who have lost their driving license and drive without a license, therefore also without an insurance. Possibly over a million drivers (the government refuses to give clear figures). This situation will only get worse in the future.

A new business has started: if you attend 2-day "classes" where some private educators sponsored by the French government lecture you about the dangers of speed and show you horrible pictures of car accidents, you can recover points on your driving license. More and more people attend these (costly) classes.


ChrisZwolle said:


> Most speed cameras appear to be signed beforehand though.


Yeah, but perhaps not for much longer. Already in 2011 the government almost removed the signs warning about a nearby speed radar, after pressure from the road security lobby ("you need to do more, more, MORE for road security"). Sarkozy backed down after the outcry, and signs still warn about radars, but the road security lobby wants them removed, and I fear they may succeed sooner or later, such is the power of these lobbies.

You have to understand that there is a crazy mechanism going on: every quarter or so, by law the French government sits with representatives from the road security leagues, and at each meeting they demand more measures against "bad" car drivers in order to "improve the security of our roads" and "save lives". No politician can say "sorry guys, I don't want to save lives", so when 4 full quarters go by without a new harsh measure against car drivers, the pressure builds on whoever is prime minister of France at the moment, and they feel like they have to propose and implement some tougher measures, otherwise they will be denounced as murderers by the road security lobby. Think of how the gun lobby in the US pressures politicians.

I can't see how this can go on forever. At some point, it won't be possible to come up with a tougher, harsher measure every year, otherwise we'll end up like in a Stalinist state.

This is the most famous voice from these road security leagues. Meet the 'delightful' Chantal Perricihon, who has reached national fame thanks to her fight against car drivers. She's invited on all TV networks, always given large airtime, and almost never challenged by journalists.










Notice how her association is not called "League for Road Security", but "League against Road Violence". This is quite telling.










Of course she's hated by many people. For example this once popular Facebook page: "Me too I'm dreaming of crashing Chantal Perrichon's body on the road".










Honestly I can't see an end to this madness, just as I can't see an end to the madness of the culture wars in the US. In France this is made worse by the fact that all these measures are taken by elitist technocrats who are aloof and far removed from the common folks. They are the same people who brought on themselves the French Revolution in 1789 by behaving in such a condescending and disregarding manner with the people below them. The French can take a lot of sh*t for a long time, they are a very passive people unlike, say, the Americans, but when too much becomes too much they suddenly erupt violently and you get revolutions.


----------



## Stuu

^^

Very eye-opening about the developments in France. Parts of that sound remarkably similar to how Brexit became a thing in the UK - setting the agenda and controlling the terminology so that they can control the debate, it's almost like there is a textbook way to create these sort of 'movements' even when the population as a whole doesn't think it's that important

One thing puzzles me though - where do they get their money from to publicise themselves?


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## LtBk

I read somewhere that people are destroying speed cameras. How come the French auto industry is not fighting back?


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## Ni3lS

I drove a lot in France the past weekend and cruise controlled at 140 km/h (A4). I saw one speed camera on that highway (at a construction zone). I thought it's required by law in France to 'announce' speeding cameras using signs. Anyway, if I got any fines I will let you know. Living in BW (Germany), I didn't get the feeling that it's crazy in France in terms of speeding cameras. Same in Belgium, just saw a few here and there at traffic lights in the city, but nothing on the highway. Are those average speed check already implemented?


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## Pitchoune

On Belgian motorways I'd say that you have a speeding camera every 30km or so. All are indicated a few dozen meters before. Although the warning is much bigger and visible in Wallonia than in Flanders in my opinion. The E411 from Namur to Arlon is an exception though. I don't think there is a speeding camera on that section. When I come back from Italy or Switzerland this is the last 2h of driving before reaching Brussels and I just go at 180 because I'm bored and a bit tired. Obviously you have many spontaneous additional unwarned controls.


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## Ni3lS

I drove the stretch Lille - Bruges, saw nothing..


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## ChrisZwolle

Most speed cameras are on secondary roads, in particular the (former) routes nationales.


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## verreme

^^ Motorways are not policed by speed cameras anyway, but by police patrols with handheld laser guns or other mobile speed traps (usually camouflaged inside cars parked at laybys). I once encountered 3 speed traps within 200km. And whenever you drive more than 100 kilometers on _autoroutes_ you just know that you're going to come across a trap sooner or later. Not only on 130 km/h stretches but also on 110 and 90 zones.


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## ElviS77

ChrisZwolle said:


> The fine is € 45 for offenses up to 20 km/h over the limit outside of city limits, but € 90 within. And the Boulevard Périphérique in Paris counts as inside the city limits, so driving 1 km/h over the 70 km/h limit results in a € 90 fine.


OT, but 16-20 above in Norway will set you back 480 euros on 70+ km/h roads and a hefty 565 euros on urban (30-60 km/h) roads… 11-15: 350 and 390 euros respectively… 6-10: 215 euros, 1-5:85 (though an unlikely sanction…).


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## jdb.2

And how many pedestrian and cyclists lives will be saved by adding more speed camera's on autoroutes?


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## ElviS77

^^
Obviously not many. The way I see it, speed cameras are better suited at accident blackspots, on roads where excessive speeding is a serious problem, and in order to reduce speed where interaction between motorists and pedestrians/cyclists causes dangerous situations.


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## sponge_bob

Minato ku said:


> This is a culture war on car drivers waged by powerful anti-automobile lobbies (uniting both road security leagues, environmentalists, and good old Marxists opposed to the individualism and freedom of the car culture). We've talked about it here before.


I fuggen hate greens.  Your problem in France is a pack of Grand Ecole greens who don't even leave Paris.....and are expense accounted around Paris in taxis because their time is too important to take the RER. .


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## ChrisZwolle

I was driving from the Mont Blanc region to the Netherlands yesterday, taking a detour via Reims and Charleroi to check out the new A304 and N5 (more on that later).

There was a truck in the ditch on A39 at Louhans. I passed there in the morning, it appears to me that the trucker fell asleep and missed the curve to the left and went straight down the bank.


A39 Louhans by European Roads, on Flickr


Over half of all car traffic on A26 is British, with many supercars among them. Rich people driving back from the rivièra to the homeland?


Bentley on A26 by European Roads, on Flickr


Ferraris on A26 by European Roads, on Flickr


McLaren on A26 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## g.spinoza

I guess there was some kind of gathering or fair...


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## snowdog

Minato ku said:


> This is a culture war on car drivers waged by powerful anti-automobile lobbies (uniting both road security leagues, environmentalists, and good old Marxists opposed to the individualism and freedom of the car culture).


This happens in most of western-europe, more and more mentally impaired car haters. Which why I'm actually very tempted to move elsewhere.


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## havaska

None of those cars have europlates or country identifiers on them. Isn't that illegal?


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## sponge_bob

havaska said:


> None of those cars have europlates or country identifiers on them. Isn't that illegal?



Not in the UK.


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## General Maximus

Officially they have to have either a euroband or a sticker displaying the country where the vehicle is registered. In practice, nobody really cares, and it's not really enforced.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N94*

N94 near Lac de Serre-Ponçon, between Chorges and Savines in the Alps.


N94 Lac de Serre-Ponçon-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N94 Lac de Serre-Ponçon-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


N94 Lac de Serre-Ponçon-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*A304*

I made a video of the new A304 in Northern France. It's quite scenic, the landscaping is also nice, the difference with A34 in the first minute of the video is quite striking.


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## ChrisZwolle

I made those myself. I can re-use / adapt on older videos, so it's not that much work to create them.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N94 Pont de Savines*

The Pont de Savines is a 1960 bridge across Lac de Serre-Ponçon, on N94 east of Gap. The 924 meter long and 50 meter high bridge was built when the dam was built to flood the valley and create the lake.


N94 Pont de Savines-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N94 Pont de Savines-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


N94 Pont de Savines-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


N94 Pont de Savines-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


N94 Pont de Savines-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## g.spinoza

I drove there a couple of months ago and there were roadworks with kilometers of queues... the whole bridge had 30 km/h limit but in fact everyone was going much slower.


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## General Maximus

Good news and bad news for those of us who travel through or near Strasbourg, where the A35 and A4 motorway was designed for 50 000 vehicles per day, instead of the 160 000 who are using it today.

- The good news is that now the Prefect of the Grand Est Region has given the green light, building the new A355 has actually begun, to relieve the existing A35/A4 motorway - to be opened in 2020.

- Then the bad news: this will be a tolled motorway; and it is expected that activists will try to delay construction and/or disturb traffic on the existing roads over the next 2 years. This is also due to de-foresting a large area where the new motorway is going to be built.


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## Luki_SL

^^how long will be A355?


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## General Maximus

^^ 24 km


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## ChrisZwolle

A persistent problem in France: service / maintenance vans getting rammed by other motorists. They have a huge bright arrow on them but for some reason some motorists and truck drivers fail to notice them. It usually happens over 100 times per year.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1042862203496480774


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## belerophon

ChrisZwolle said:


> A persistent problem in France: service / maintenance vans getting rammed by other motorists. They have a huge bright arrow on them but for some reason some motorists and truck drivers fail to notice them. It usually happens over 100 times per year.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1042862203496480774


The arrow seems not to be very different from this used in germany. Are there comparing numbers for germany or other countries? Where is the difference?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't have any figures, but cars and trucks crashing into crash attenuators or arrow trailers seem to happen every few days in the Netherlands. These crashes seem to happen mostly at night.

I wonder what creates these crashes, if they happen so often in the middle of the night, when there is almost no traffic and these bright arrows can be seen a kilometer in advance. It makes you question how many "zombie truckers" are out there. 

Random example from the Netherlands.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/958090068509388800


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## jdb.2

Target fixation? Like they say, when you don't want to hit a tree you shouldn't be focused on the tree. Especially at night these trailers could attract maybe too much attention.
Could be an interesting experiment to make these trailers less flashy, to see if the crash rate increases or decreases.


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## Minato ku

Latest news from the War-on-Automobile front in France: according to various newspapers, the number of degradation and destruction of speed radars in France has exploded since July. People are sick and tired of the new 80 km/h speed limit. Check this article for instance: https://www.ladepeche.fr/article/20...tes-vandalisme-multiplient-contre-radars.html

This is a small département near Toulouse, and yet the number of degraded and destroyed radars is very high. Also see the comments below the article: I have rarely seen such unanimous opposition to a government measure in years. Many people making comparisons with the tax hike on salt by the royal authorities just before the French Revolution.

Speaking of which, our egghead of prime minister, who already said last year that he was ready to be unpopular if it saved life (the 80 km/h) has now decided to raise the tax on gas(oline) and says again that he is "ready to be unpopular" if it "saves the environment". Our prime minister is a great savior, of lives, of the environment. It's beautiful.

Unleaded 95 gas currently costs around 1.50 euros per liter on average. With the tax rise that the government is about to implement, unleaded 95 gas will cost 1.55 euros per liter.

Meanwhile in Spain where I was earlier this month unleaded 95 gas can be had for only 1.20 euros per liter... And speed limit is 100 km/h on undivided two-lane highways...

PS: Disastrous polls for Macron and his prime minister. According to the latest polls published last week, Macron's approval ratings have plunged below 30%, much lower than Sarkozy after one year in office, and about as low as the hapless François Hollande. The prime minister is also losing 6 percentage points of approval in one month, with only 34% of the French people now approving of his policies according to the latest polls (in France the less exposed prime ministers are usually more popular than the president). Road security and speed limits is one of the rare areas that is the sole responsibility of the prime minister and not the president (although the president could have stopped the prime minister if he had wished to; in private Macron is skeptical about the 80 km/h speed limit, but he has allowed his prime minister to proceed nonetheless).


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## ChrisZwolle

It didn't take me long to find a recent article about Macron at a major news outlet: Bloomberg: 19% approval. Boy that is bad.


----------



## Bren

Minato ku said:


> People are sick and tired of the new 80 km/h speed limit.


People are stupid.


----------



## jdb.2

ChrisZwolle said:


> It didn't take me long to find a recent article about Macron at a major news outlet: Bloomberg: 19% approval. Boy that is bad.


Every new president in France gets negative polls after election, so is this even news?


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## ChrisZwolle

Sure, but this bad? I mean it's great to have a reform agenda but if you are only able to expedite the unpopular measures and not be able to reform the remainder, popularity is bound to drop. According to the media, the popularity of Macron has dropped steeply over the summer. The unemployment rate also remains stubbornly high, it has hardly dropped since 2010, while in Germany and the Netherlands it has dropped to very low levels.


----------



## TM_Germany

Well, I believe Macron is trying to reform the economy to resemble the German and Dutch model more closely to finally get out of stagnation. Yet in France, where socialism (and especially unions) are so deeply embedded into the culture, those reforms are extremely unpopular. I believe someone has to do them, Europe needs France as a powerhouse. Macron might die politically because of that but France will be better of.


----------



## verreme

Bren said:


> People are stupid.


Except you, oh enlightened being from outer space.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A507:* Les Arnavaux (A7) – Sainte-Marthe 3km (August 2014 to October 2018) – project – map


https://madeinmarseille.net/39826-ouverture-l2-nord-a507-autoroute/



> - Le 17 octobre 2018 est prévue l’ouverture de la L2 Nord sens A7 –> A50
> - Le 25 octobre 2018, ce sera au tour du sens A50 –> A7
> 
> - On October 17, 2018 is scheduled the opening of the L2 North direction A7 -> A50
> - On October 25, 2018, it will be the turn of the senses A50 -> A7


----------



## belerophon

TM_Germany said:


> Well, I believe Macron is trying to reform the economy to resemble the German and Dutch model more closely to finally get out of stagnation. Yet in France, where socialism (and especially unions) are so deeply embedded into the culture, those reforms are extremely unpopular. I believe someone has to do them, Europe needs France as a powerhouse. Macron might die politically because of that but France will be better of.


And restricting speed is the most important economical reform to risk popularity for? Sry but the reactions seem not to fit in any way to the topic ::nuts:


----------



## General Maximus

French motorway company, SANEF, is studying the possibility of eliminating the toll barriers between Paris and Caen and replacing them with electronic gantries. Motorists would pay at a distance.

It would replace the 5 tolls plazas with electronic gantries. 

The idea would be to replace the current toll barriers with electronic gantries that would allow you to pay remotely or in relay shops.



Christine Allard Director of Institutional Relations at SANEF explains that there are advantages "we will save time." No more morning or evening congestion at the entrance to major cities on weekdays or weekends at the entries in Paris and in Normandy, because there is no more traffic jams, we save fuel and emit less CO2 into the atmosphere. "

A complete axis would be a first in France

This would be the first time that an entire axis would be equipped with this freeflow. It exists in Portugal or in Dublin where Sanef exploits this principle on the ring road or near London. "There is an experiment on Metz that will start in January, but this only concerns a motorway junction where there is a lot of traffic .The Norman project is a complete removal and it is the first time in France. The government could make a decision early in 2019, the system could be operational in 2021.

https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/tra...-peage-entre-paris-et-caen-en-2021-1538150655


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## ChrisZwolle

That's some serious thinking outside of the box for french toll road operators. There are substantial benefits if they can remove the toll plazas. 

The cross-border enforcement and Eucaris could eliminate the problems with users not paying their toll bills.


----------



## g.spinoza

Electronic gantries and freeflow are operating since 2016 on Italian A59, A60 and A36. They were not so successful in Italy: technically they work fine, but debt collection is an issue. Current estimate is 11% of customers not paying their tolls (but it was almost 25% one year ago), especially foreigners (Swiss most of all).


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## MichiH

General Maximus said:


> It exists in Portugal or in Dublin where Sanef exploits this principle on the ring road or near London.


I think it works fine in Norway. Dublin also worked for me. However, I had an issue on eastern ring of London (it was a Swedish company, not French). I paid online the same day but got a letter home that I should pay the toll within x days or I'll be fined with xx €. It was just about 2 € and I paid it twice... Sure, it's new in France and they need to make an experiment.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Col d'Izoard*

The 2360 meter high Col d'Izoard in the Alps. Departmental road D902 runs across it (ex-N202). It's located south of Briançon. It's mostly a tourist route, it runs north south but nearby N94 is nearly flat compared to Col d'Izoard.


Col d'Izoard-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col d'Izoard-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col d'Izoard-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col d'Izoard-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col d'Izoard-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col d'Izoard-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Shenkey

ChrisZwolle said:


> It didn't take me long to find a recent article about Macron at a major news outlet: Bloomberg: 19% approval. Boy that is bad.


Why is this bad? He only got like 5% more in the first round.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Approval rates are not the same as vote share, especially in political systems with more than 3 parties. It's not uncommon for a coalition prime minister to get a much higher approval rate than the share of votes received. 

By the way, Macron just lost his interior minister. That's 3 ministers that quit in just over a month time.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *N70:* Saint-Eusebe – Montchanin-East 4km (Fall 2015 to 2018?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


Works are still ongoing, no info about the estimated completion date.




MichiH said:


> *N2:* Crepy-en-Valois – east of Gondreville 3.5km (<= 2016 to Late 2018) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
> *N2:* east of Gondreville – Vaumoise/Vauciennes 3.5km (<= 2016 to Late 2018) – ? – map


There was a public day on 16th September. The bypass is still expected to be opened by the end of 2018. Source. OSM indicates the road in service which seems to be incorrect.




MichiH said:


> *N44:* Moncetz-Longevas – St-Germain-la-Ville 4.2km (October 2016 to Late 2018) – ? – map


Estimated opening date: Late October 2018. Source.




MichiH said:


> *N88:* Baraqueville – Les Molinieres 7km (September 2014 to Late 2018) – ? – map
> *N88:* La Mothe – Baraqueville 7km (Spring 2017 to Late 2019) – ? – map


 The northern section seems to be delayed by 1 year. No info about the estimated completion of the southern section. Source.


> Début des travaux en 2014.
> Les travaux de la déviation ont débuté en 2014. Ils sont organisés selon deux sections, permettant une mise en service étagée :
> 
> 
> la section Molinières - Baraqueville (nord) ;
> la section Baraqueville - La Mothe (sud).
> *Une livraison de la section Molinières - Baraqueville est envisagée à l’automne 2019 (hors intempéries)*.


----------



## belerophon

MichiH said:


> I think it works fine in Norway. Dublin also worked for me. However, I had an issue on eastern ring of London (it was a Swedish company, not French). I paid online the same day but got a letter home that I should pay the toll within x days or I'll be fined with xx €. It was just about 2 € and I paid it twice... Sure, it's new in France and they need to make an experiment.


Well Norway lets you register in advance. If you dont know it and dont do it, this is a quite costly enforcement. Thats kind of unfriendly. For international collection they use a company in London, The fees are some 4 times as high as if you paid in advance. For me that is modern robbery. 

I am really glad, taht happened to my friend and he informed others well, so i didnt get tricked.


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## MichiH

^^ I didn't register in Norway in advance. I did it in the evening. However, it's not necessary at all:


> It is optional to register, however, registering for an EPC account will normally reduce the time from your journey to you receiving your invoice.


 http://www.autopass.no/en/visitors-payment

It wasn't much money and can't remember if I had additional costs or not. It was in 2016...


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## ChrisZwolle

You don't need to register in Norway. The toll rates are the same,* though EPC uses an unfavorable currency conversion, so you should aways choose to pay in NOK even if the bill is in EUR. 

* some toll projects in Norway offer a discount if you make a significant pre-payment (only interesting for frequent users).


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## ChrisZwolle

*A61 Toulouse - Narbonne*

A declaration of public utility (DUP) has been issued for the six lane expansion of A61 in Southern France, from A66 at Villefranche-de-Lauragais to A9 at Narbonne. This is a 120 kilometer project, it is the longest section of autoroute in France to be expanded in the coming years. It was reported earlier that construction could start within months.

http://www.aude.gouv.fr/amenagement-de-l-a61-a-2x3-voies-a10251.html


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## VITORIA MAN

not much traffic when i drove along it !!!


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## ChrisZwolle

The annual average traffic volume on A61 is not very high, but this motorway suffers from severe traffic congestion on Fridays and Saturdays in July and August, with frequent 1+ hour delays.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

I was lucky then !!!


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> The annual average traffic volume on A61 is not very high, but this motorway suffers from severe traffic congestion on Fridays and Saturdays in July and August, with frequent 1+ hour delays.


In fact congestion can stretch all the way into A9 and contribute to the regular traffic jams on this motorway. Southeastern France is definitely not much fun to drive on Fridays or Sundays, especially in summer.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Traffic congestion at Montpellier has been reduced significantly since the new A9 opened to traffic, but it is still very vulnerable due to accidents. Summer traffic volumes on A9 are so high that any incident creates massive congestion and there are no ways to avoid it. 

A7 also remains problematic down from Lyon to Orange. It is the most congested motorway in the south of France, congestion there is not limited to Fridays and Saturdays in July and August like most other motorways. Yet there seem to be absolutely no plans to alleviate it. Any solution will be expensive just due to the sheer distance involved (180 kilometers from Givors to Orange). But A7 is the most profitable for VINCI, the last expansion was completed almost 30 years ago and the high volume of traffic makes it a cash cow.


----------



## Minato ku

It's not just on Fridays and Saturdays. I drove on A61 on Sunday night at the end of September, there was bumper to bumper traffic from Narbonne to Toulouse. Toulouse people returning from a sunny week-end on the coast. There was so much traffic (it was around 9-10pm) that traffic slowed down almost to a halt from times to times as if there was an accident, except there was no accident, just lots of traffic.

This motorway is totally uncalibrated for the huge population explosion that Toulouse has experienced since the 1970s. The enlargement cannot come too soon. I saw no work going on though, even though it's "officially" under construction.

I'm not sure the enlargement will be enough to cope with traffic. Even when we reached the already enlarged section after junction with A66, there was so much traffic it was impossible to go fast. I swear I could never drive faster than 110 km/h for the all length from Narbonne to Toulouse, and oftentimes I was driving at only 90, and sometimes only 70 km/h. It was like the ring road of a giant city at rush hour for the whole length.

The population of the Toulouse metro area is currently 1.4 million (it was only 0.7 million when they built A61). I can't imagine how that will be when the population is 2 million and people go to the coast on week-ends, even with the enlargement. It would almost have to be 2*4 to cope with all the traffic. This is compounded by the fact that there is no fast train service from Toulouse to the coast (the French government has always rejected the idea of a Toulouse-Narbonne high-speed lane, which would connect Toulouse to Barcelona and Montpellier/Marseille by high-speed instead of the current 19th century railway lines).

More generally speaking, the amount of traffic on the motorways running out of Toulouse has become insane. I remember the motorway from Toulouse to Montauban when there were only 2*2 lanes and little traffic, barely 25 years ago, and now it's 2*3 lanes and so much traffic all days of the week...


ChrisZwolle said:


> A7 also remains problematic down from Lyon to Orange. It is the most congested motorway in the south of France, congestion there is not limited to Fridays and Saturdays in July and August like most other motorways. *Yet there seem to be absolutely no plans to alleviate it.*


There was a plan (build a new motorway parallel to the current one), but it fell victim to the war on automobile waged by the Green and far-left lobbies. Now I don't think they will do anything for the next 50 years.


----------



## MichiH

Minato ku said:


> The population of the Toulouse metro area is currently 1.4 million (it was only 0.7 million when they built A61).


Source?


https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_Métropole#Population

2009: 0.70m
2015: 0.75m


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## ChrisZwolle

I believe these are only the inner suburbs, I don't think it includes places like Muret. The _aire urbaine_ is closer to 1.4 million.


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## verreme

So "only" 80 years after its inception, Marseille has a motorway-standard bypass! This is _really_ something to celebrate. It will save, like, 30 minutes of congestion for many drivers, plus a very expensive toll. Construction took *25 years* but it's finally there!



ChrisZwolle said:


> *17 October 2018*
> 
> The northern section of A507 in Marseille, France opens to traffic today. It is a 3.5 km segment that connects to A7, completing the 2nd bypass, or L2, as it is also known. It opens for southbound traffic today and northbound traffic on 25 October.
> 
> This means that A507 links A7 and A50 in Marseille, providing a bypass through the northern and eastern districts, allowing traffic to bypass the tunnels in the city center.
> 
> https://france3-regions.francetvinf...-rocade-l2-ouverte-sens-nord-est-1559876.html


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ just curious, what's the "L" ?

I was thinking Contournement, Rocade, Autoroute, Periphique...


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## ChrisZwolle

The denomination "L2" has its origins in the Schéma Directeur d'Aménagement et d'Urbanisme of 1969, but it doesn't clarify the prefix. It was originally the R2 (rocade 2).


----------



## Stuu

Ligne?


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## g-n-r

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ just curious, what's the "L" ?
> 
> I was thinking Contournement, Rocade, Autoroute, Periphique... _Landesautobahn_?


Probably "Liaison".

The 1959's "Plan d'Urbanisme Directeur" planned a lot of new motorways, classified like this :

A for the main motorways ("Autoroutes")
R for the bypasses ("Rocades") 
S for the radial highways ("Sorties")

In the 1969 "Schéma Directeur", the "R" roads became "L".

In fact, the current Marseille's bypass correspond to the former R4 project. Exacly, the L2 "Est" is the northern part of the R4, when the L2 "Nord" follows the route of the north part of the former R3...
The southern part of the former R4 is today know as the BUS, "Boulevard Urbain Sud", which is under construction and will achieve the Marseille's ring road :








Picture posted by AkarSarren on http://www.pss-archi.eu/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=697992#p697992

The former "R2" corresponds more or less, for it's northern part, to the "Rocade du Jarret", also called "Première rocade", which is more a "grand boulevard" than a "rocade"...


Here is a dashcam video of the new L2 :





One more here : 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BpHfndcvco


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## GROBIN

This year, apparently, not that many people used their cars in order to go on vacation due to very expensive fuel prices, which made the number of casualties on French roads decrease somehow artificially in June, July (when the 80km/h on single carriageways was implemented) and August.
However, in September, when French people go back to work, everyone needs their car. The consequence? +8,8% of casualties more than last year, particularly automobile and motorcycle drivers (which are THE ones touched by the "80" speed limit).
When I read the French Internet, lots of people complain that now, on secondary roads everyone is afraid to overtake slower people (because it might be one of those private-owned undercover radar-cars), and that trucks tend to drive particularly close to cars... 
Article from Le Figaro (however, there are other, far more detailed articles than this one). Translated into English by myself



> Road safety: 323 casualties in September, + 8.8% over one year
> The number of casualties on the roads of metropolitan France increased in September (+ 8.8%) with 323 people killed, 26 more than in the same month in 2017, announced the Road Safety today. After a sharp fall in August (-15.5%) and July (-5.5%), these figures somewhat contradict the downward trend in road mortality in France, which began in 2017 after three consecutive years of rising . According to Road Safety, the increase in September "particularly concerns motorcyclists", with 81 killed in total.


Beware of driving on French roads. Avoid it if you can.


----------



## Shenkey

Minato ku said:


> https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/3569346?geo=AU2010-004 (the 1.4 million mark was reached in the middle of 2018)
> 
> As ChrisZwolle pointed out, Toulouse Métropole is not the metro area of Toulouse, it's an administrative entity that is much smaller and doesn't even include some suburbs bordering the city of Toulouse like Ramonville-Saint-Agne and Portet-sur-Garonne, due to complex feuds between the various politicians barons controlling the suburbs. A very sad story, as is too often the case for local administration in France.
> 
> At current rates, the metro area should reach 1.5 million in 2023. 1.6 million in 2027-2028. Obviously the motorway network wasn't meant to cope with so many people. And the local politicians are completely out of their depth (no motorway built in the metro area since the late 1990s when the metro area had only 1 million inhabitants). Currently they are feuding over the very badly designed 3rd line of the subway network, which won't solve anything, and will take until the late 2020s to be completed. Complete gridlock on the roads and motorways of the metro area seems quite certain.


What is the reason for Toulouse to be growing so much?

Can't be just Airbus.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Col du Lautaret*



GROBIN said:


> Beware of driving on French roads. Avoid it if you can.


Nah. It's too nice. 


1. The Col du Lautaret (2058 m)

Col du Lautaret-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. The pass is loaded with touristic stuff like this.

Col du Lautaret-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. Formerly N91, now D1091.

Col du Lautaret-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. The Col du Galibier starts here.

Col du Lautaret-11 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

Col du Lautaret-15 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. View over Col du Lautaret.

Col du Lautaret-18 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

Col du Lautaret-20 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. View on La Meije (3984 m).

Col du Lautaret-21 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Minato ku

Shenkey said:


> What is the reason for Toulouse to be growing so much?
> 
> Can't be just Airbus.


Just a few reasons:
- sunshine, sunbelt effect

- cheaper housing than on the French Riviera

- a deliberate policy by the French state favoring Toulouse since the 1950s, with the relocation of major administrations from Paris to Toulouse, like the French meteorological office. This helped kickstart the development of the city.

- since then, a self-sustaining dynamic economy (Airbus, aerospace industry more generally, big medical research and laboratories, highly skilled white collar jobs in general, for which Toulouse is #3 in France after only Paris and Lyon) 

- major engineering schools and universities (with the help of the French State originally, which transferred various top engineering schools from Paris to Toulouse in the 1950s and 1960s) which attract lots of bright young people from all across France who later stay in Toulouse

- an extremely positive image within France (Toulouse is always the #1 or #2 most favorite city in nationwide polls, with almost no negatives attached to its image, which is pretty rare in France)

What is NOT a reason for Toulouse's big growth:
- international immigration: contrary to most other Western European cities, it plays very little role in the big growth of Toulouse. Toulouse's growth is almost entirely domestic in its origin. Only imagine what Toulouse's growth would be if it had levels of international immigration like the German, British, or Scandinavian metro areas... Its growth rate would probably then resemble Houston or Dallas. Toulouse is currently growing at +1.5% per year. With the levels of international immigration registered in Northern Europe, it would probably grow by +2.5% per year.

In the future, Toulouse may hit a wall due to the lack of proper planning in terms of transportation though. Like I've said, no motorway construction, and a dysfunctional planning of public transportation (each mayor cancelling the projects of the previous mayor, and the current mayor now planning only a single line of subway after already 4 years in power, a line which would be the 3rd line of the Toulouse subway but wouldn't improve the transport situation much due to the idiotic route chosen, and super slow construction, not planned to open before the late 2020s, IF the next mayor doesn't cancel it altogether in 2020).

The local authorities had greatly planned local transportation until the early 2000s, both lots of motorways and subway lines, but since the mid 2000s the management of the new authorities has become shambolic and frankly shameful for such a large metropolis, with the Left ditching motorways because not "Green" enough, and also ditching the subway and choosing slow moving tram lines (streetcars), for ideological reasons (for some reason the Left in Toulouse has always been opposed to subways, and their Green allies always prefer streetcars because it makes life difficult for private car drivers as it uses space on the avenues, with the avowed goal of forcing people to stop driving cars due to traffic jams). Since the Right defeated the Left in 2014, subway is again on the agenda, but it's mired in controversy (completely stupid route chosen for political reasons), and advancing very slowly. Motorways are now taboo for the Right as well as for the Left (I can't imagine any new motorway built in the Toulouse metro area for the next 2 generations at least). In fact the Right-wing mayor of Toulouse has decreased the speed limit on the motorways of the metro area, you can't drive faster than 90 km/h now, even at night, it's idiotic. They may even decrease it further to 70 km/h.

PS: In Paris, one famous candidate to become mayor in the 2020 election has even proposed no later than last week to demolish the Périphérique (not just turn it into an urban boulevard, but to demolish it entirely). That shows you how extreme the anti-automobile and anti-motorways sentiments have become in France. No journalist pointed out the stupidity of such a proposal, which is also quite typical of France. With the French media I often have the impression it's like watching Fox News where they repeat the most crazy proposals from hard-core Republicans without pointing out how stupidly impractical these proposals are.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A79*

APRR is going to construct the first stage of A79 at Montmarault, including a new A71-A79 interchange and 3.2 km of expansion of N79 to 2x2 lanes.

Project website: https://a71.aprr.com/


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## ChrisZwolle

*Col du Galibier*

The Col du Galibier is a high mountain pass that starts at the Col du Lautaret. It is on the departmental border.


Col du Galibier-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

The Galibier with the valley of Briançon behind it.

Col du Galibier-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

The south side, with the Massif des Écrins in the background. The 4102 meter high Barre des Écrins is in the center of it, it is the southernmost 4000-er in the Alps. The 3984 meter high La Meije is on the right.

Col du Galibier-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

The north side. If conditions are clear, you can see the Mont Blanc (90 km away).

Col du Galibier-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

panorama

Col du Galibier-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## CNGL

Better climb it from the Maurienne Valley. There is the Col du Télégraphe first, a short descent to Valloire, and then the Galibier. I thought it was a bit higher at 2,645 meters above the sea level (at least that's what the Tour says).

And in another note, the Barre des Ecrins has been seen all the way... from Spain! (OK, it was from the French border, but it still was more than 400 km away)


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> APRR is going to construct the first stage of A79 at Montmarault, including a new A71-A79 interchange and 3.2 km of expansion of N79 to 2x2 lanes.
> 
> Project website: https://a71.aprr.com/



If I got it right, the first section is already under construction. Works started in early 2018(!?) and should be completed by April 2020. Source


> *Début 2018* : Démarrage des travaux pour l'antenne de Montmarault.
> *Printemps 2018 :* Désignation du concessionnaire du tronçon principal.
> *2018-2019 :* Études et procédures pour le tronçon principal.
> *2020 :* Démarrage des travaux pour le tronçon principal.
> *Avril 2020 :* Mise en service contractuelle de l'antenne de Montmarault.
> *Fin 2021 :* Mise en service espérée du tronçon principal.


The construction of the second carriageway till Digoin-East interchange (exit 23) should be started in 2020 and to be completed by the end of 2021. There are already some short 2x2 N79 sections.

Both completion dates are confirmed by the project page. In total, the future A79 from Montmarault to Digoin-East will have a length more than 90km.


*A79:* Montmarault (A71) – north of Montmarault 4km (Early 2018 to April 2020) – project – map
*A79:* rededication north of Montmarault – south of Deux-Chaises 2km (2020 to Late 2021) – project – map
*A79:* south of Deux-Chaises – east Le Montet 8km (2020 to Late 2021) – project – map
*A79:* rededication east Le Montet – Chemilly 19km (2020 to Late 2021) – project – map
*A79:* Chemilly – west of Le Donjon 57km (2020 to Late 2021) [already some short 2x2 sections] – project – map
*A79:* rededication west of Digoin-East – Digoin-East 2.5km (2020 to Late 2021) – project – map


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## Luki_SL

Are all roads in Corsica resigned form "N" (national roads) to T- roads now?
On GSV (2014) there is still  N198 instead of T11.


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## General Maximus

^^ I don't know what's going on at the moment. I tried to find some info on Google, but then I came across this:










This is where I realized that it's probably better that I stop and go to bed.


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## MichiH

Yes, Italy is part of the city France. What's your point? :jk:


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ An Italian friend of mine who used to live in San Francisco told me that he was once asked "Is Greece in France"? He answered "it's not even wrong, it's way more than that"...


----------



## MichiH

It reminds me of a geography lesson back in the early 1990s. It was about the Indian subcontinent. The teacher asked another pupil what he remembers from the last lesson. Well, he said the truth. He just said nothing. The teacher asked whether he remembers the countries of the Indian subcontinent. Again, no answer. The teacher was very strict and you should never ever try to make him angry. But the silence was just boring.... I whispered "Nepal, Sri Lanka, Buthan". Silence. Again "Nepal, Sri Lanka". Silence. I whispered louder: "Nepal, Sri Lanka!" (the teacher heart it for sure). And my colleague finally said "Neapel" (Naples, the Italian city). The teacher was happy that he got any answer and asked: And what's the capital? "Sri Lanka!" :lol:


----------



## MichiH

Minato ku said:


> Anyway, back to the news. Various people have started a hunger strike to force president Macron (no less) to stop the Strasbourg bypass. Today Le Monde is reporting that these people have reached the 24th day of their hunger strike and could die anytime soon if Macron doesn't stop the Strasbourg bypass.


Strasbourg. Opponents of the ring road stop their hunger strike



ChrisZwolle said:


> Perhaps they did not want to send public officials for an official "first sod" ceremony given the radicals out there. If they have people on hunger strike and have to send in the riot police to secure a construction site, an official ceremony may also be disrupted by them.


It's reported:


> Evoked in the 1970s, regularly abandoned before being relaunched in the late 1990s, the construction of the Great Western Bypass of Strasbourg (GCO) *began in September* after the evacuation of an area to defend (ZAD) by some 500 gendarmes in the municipality of Kolbsheim (north-east). The commissioning of this 24-km ring road, which is mainly paying, is *scheduled for 2021*.


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## ChrisZwolle

Open road tolling is coming to France. If I understand it correctly, you can use it with a badge (télépéage transponder) or a credit card linked to the Ulys app. It's a VINCI Autoroutes video, I'm not sure if they are going to implement it nationwide, though the current transponder works for any toll road regardless of the issuing toll road operator.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A516 Aix-en-Provence*

A516 is no more. The 0.9 kilometer autoroute in Aix-en-Provence has been declassed to a route nationale: N2516. It is basically an off-ramp of A51. 

>> https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affi...FTEXT000037627514&dateTexte=&categorieLien=id


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## Luki_SL

^^Many A5** motorways are the strangest and the shortest A-signed roads in France.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A516 is no more. The 0.9 kilometer autoroute in Aix-en-Provence has been declassed to a route nationale: N2516. It is basically an off-ramp of A51.


There were no A516 anywhere in the field.


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## verreme

A few years ago I made a video of these short A5xx _autoroutes_:


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## General Maximus

Perhaps finally some good news from France? There are calls to have trials of a 150 km/h speed limit on some motorways...

http://m.leparisien.fr/oise-60/depu...ute-26-11-2018-7953909.php#xtor=AD-1481423552


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## ChrisZwolle

I'd rather see the rollback of those 110 km/h limits in areas that are not urban. 

I've read they want to lower the speed limit on A35 from Colmar to Mulhouse to 110 km/h.


----------



## g.spinoza

General Maximus said:


> Perhaps finally some good news from France? There are calls to have trials of a 150 km/h speed limit on some motorways...
> 
> http://m.leparisien.fr/oise-60/depu...ute-26-11-2018-7953909.php#xtor=AD-1481423552


So, lower limits on normal road and higher limits on motorways? This is schizophrenia.


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## General Maximus

It's France :lol:


----------



## MichiH

Another good news from France is that there is indeed big progress for A355 construction. I saw quite a lot of machines and workers between Ittenheim and Achenheim today 



General Maximus said:


> I don't know how much progress they've made so far, but they're trying...


----------



## Highway89

g.spinoza said:


> So, lower limits on normal road and higher limits on motorways? This is schizophrenia.


There was a similar proposal in Spain a couple of years ago. They wanted to raise the speed limit on motorways from 120 to 130, and to lower it on normal roads from 100 to 90. Basically, they aimed to encourage people to use tolled motorways instead of the parallel national roads. Currently the difference is so small that many people don't want to pay just to drive 20 km/h faster.

I don't know if this is the reason in the case of France.


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## g.spinoza

Highway89 said:


> There was a similar proposal in Spain a couple of years ago. They wanted to raise the speed limit on motorways from 120 to 130, and to lower it on normal roads from 100 to 90. Basically, they aimed to encourage people to use tolled motorways instead of the parallel national roads. Currently the difference is so small that many people don't want to pay just to drive 20 km/h faster.
> 
> I don't know if this is the reason in the case of France.


I am well aware of these schemes to promote usage of toll roads. In Italy many national roads are so terrible that they cannot be used for medium-length distances, and they are not upgraded except for few cases.
In France, however, the 150-on-motorway proposal is completely at odds with all the safety campaign that led in the end to the lowering of rural roads limits. It makes this move not credible at all. I would feel mocked.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N205 Viaduc des Égratz*

I took these photos of N205 near Chamonix from a higher vantage point. The left viaduct carries traffic to Chamonix while the old road is converted to one carriageway of N205 towards Genève, it is much curvier. And yes, traffic drives on the left here.

With a view of Mont Blanc 

N205 Viaduc des Égratz - Mont Blanc by European Roads, on Flickr


N205 Viaduc des Égratz - Mont Blanc-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*M610 Castries*

The bypass of Castries opened to traffic on 20 October. It used to be a part of N110.

However, it has been introduced as M610, a route métropolitaine, the first of the Montpellier region. I believe it is also the first outside of the Nice area.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A4 Metz*

Sanef announced a public inquiry for the six lane expansion of A4 at Metz, from A31 at Hauconcourt to A315 at Mey. Present-day traffic volumes are quoted at 50,000 vehicles per day. This section can be driven without paying tolls.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A41 Annecy*

Construction has started to expand a 6 kilometer section of A41 north of Annecy to six lanes. Construction began on 24 September and is planned to be completed by early 2021.

Plan:









Map:


----------



## Minato ku

g.spinoza said:


> In France, however, the 150-on-motorway proposal is completely at odds with all the safety campaign that led in the end to the lowering of rural roads limits. It makes this move not credible at all. I would feel mocked.


The 150 km/h speed limit is not a government proposal. It's just a proposal by an isolated opposition MP from the center-right party of former president Sarkozy (a party which doesn't even support this proposal). It has zero chance of being discussed in Parliament, let alone approved.

That being said, the Gilets Jaunes movement may be about to achieve something that I would have thought impossible only 1 month ago, i.e. changing the anti-automobile mentality of the French "elites" ruling France.

Until this month, the trend in France was to decrease speed limits. The large metro areas already closed roads and expressways to car traffic, and lowered the speed on urban motorways and even motorways leading to their ring roads from 110 to 90 km/h, day and night, heavy traffic or not, and now I was expecting a new lowering to 70 km/h as they have already done on the Périphérique in Paris, but perhaps this general trend will be stopped now.

To understand this, you need to know the context of the public conversation regarding cars in France. France is an odd mix of a Latin and Germanic country. We both have the seriousness and reflection of Germanic countries and the frivolity and hyperbole of Latin countries, the love of stylistic effects over content, for the pure sake of stylistic effects. In France, a politician, a debater, a commentator will be liked as much if not more for his style than for the content of what he says. Sometimes (in fact oftentimes) a witty and pleasantly turned sentence will win more applause and agreement than a more boring sentence, even if the witty sentence makes no sense when you look at the actual content of the information.

On TV political shows and news programs, a lot of people bring less fresh and pragmatic ideas of their owns than they just repeat commonly held ideas, just presented with a bit of wit. Repeating something that is held to be true by the Parisian elites will always lead to the other people in the debate nod in agreement, with the journalist almost never challenging you.

One such commonly held idea among the Parisian intellectual and political elites in the past 10 years has been that the car civilization is coming to an end. In particular, it is often stated as an established fact that young people are less and less interested in owning a car, that fewer and fewer young people bother to take the test for the driving license, and that these young generations prefer public transportation, bikes, folding electric scooters, and if they really need to use a car they will use carsharing apps. Another commonly held idea is that cars use too much footprint in the cities and this footprint needs to be reduced (30% of the City of Paris's land is used by roads for car traffic say the friends of the Mayor of Paris disapprovingly). The future belongs to shared mobility, and a drastic eviction of cars from our cities. Maybe we'll use cars only twice a year to go on holidays, and then that will be cars that we'll hire for that purpose, and not own (because owning cars that sit unused most of the year wastes land).

That's the general idea. If you raise any of these points in any TV debate, you're sure everybody will agree with you, and no journalist will challenge you

Then come the Gilets Jaunes who are car drivers and protest the big diesel tax hike and the 80 km/h speed limit. First reaction of the Parisian elites at the beginning of November: "Wauquiez [the leader of the center-right party of former president Sarkozy, who criticized the diesel and gas tax hikes], that's the candidate of the guys who smoke ****/ciggies and drive on diesel. That's not the 21st century France we want." So said the minister who is spokesperson of Macron's government (he later denied he ever said that, but the journalists do maintain that he really said it). Other comments by the elites were along the lines of "ah, the French [meaning, those pesky middle classes who don't live in our central Parisian upper class world], you touch their cars and it's the end of the world" (note that they never say "car", they use a derogatory French slang word for car that doesn't exist in English, to show their disdain and rejection of cars). Or, "oh, the French, they always whine, but it will soon be over". 

Only last month, this sort of speech was common place and did not elicit any reaction or outrage. Fast forward one month later, and now by the end of November things have quite changed. The 'Wauquiez' comment by the arrogant and condescending spokesperson of Macron's government (who wishes to run for the mayorship of Paris in 2020 in parenthesis, and is opposed to reopening the riverbank expressway, like almost all local politicians), has generated a big outrage (hence the later denial), and is probably responsible in some measure for the intensity of the Gilets Jaunes movement, as there is ONE thing the French cannot stand, and that's being disrespected and treated condescendingly. 

In the past week, it's been fascinating to watch the TV political shows and news programs. The tone has change radically now that the Parisian elites realize the magnitude of the Gilets Jaunes movement (nearly 80% of the French population supporting the Gilets Jaunes despite the violence on the Champs-Elysées last week). There is a sudden realization that after all, cars still play a large role in French society outside the bubble of central Paris and the central areas of a few other large French cities. Suddenly there is no mockery anymore, no denunciation of the car culture anymore, but a big introspection live on television: "have we perhaps missed something in French society?" "Have we perhaps not realized that what we thought was a dying world because central Paris is such a particular place is in fact still the mainstream in the rest of France?"

Yesterday on C dans l'air, a news programs that is greatly watched by the elites and which invites 4 members of the elites every day to discuss the news, one invitee said something that was quite startling, because you couldn't have heard that in France only 1 month ago. No more "the young people do not aspire to owning a car anymore". The guy said this: "We have collectively made an error of judgment about the relationship that the French have with the automobile. In the past 15 years we have told ourselves that the importance of (private) cars in transportation would diminish: public transportation, carsharing, carpooling... But in reality, some figures were released this week and oddly nobody has commented them so far, and these are: on Jan. 1, 2018, 39.5 million cars in France, 4 to 5 million more than 15 years ago. The number of cars continues to rise. Of course we're more French people than 15 years ago, but even though, this idea that after all there are less cars, well no, the French remain quite fond of cars. Cars do not fall out of fashion."

That was at 4:52 the C dans l'air: https://www.france.tv/france-5/c-dans-l-air/805515-c-dans-l-air.html

Like wow! I would never have thought possible I could ever hear that on French television during my lifetime! And said by a member of the Parisian elites in a show of, by, and for the elites!

So my feeling is something is changing, and changing fast. 

Now that the idea that in fact cars still play a big role in France, are needed, and in fact increase in number, is being heard for the first time in a long time, then given the way public discourse works in France (see above), it's probable that this line will be repeated a lot in future debates (French debates are really about using prêt-à-porter ideas, if I can say so, more than bringing original ideas). It's quite probable that now, when you say "cars are needed and people are still fond of them, etc", people will nod in agreement, just as they nodded in agreement before when you said "young people do not desire to own cars anymore, and we're moving away from the car civilization".

This could have big consequences. Don't hold your breath for a 150 km/h speed limit, and I'm not even sure that our stubborn government will restore the 90 km/h speed limit on normal roads, and not sure either that mayors will restore the 110 km/h speed limit on urban motorways, but one very likely consequence I think is all the projects to decrease further the speed limit from 90 to 70 km/h on urban motorways are probably going to be frozen now. They've seen that a large section of the population is angered with the anti-automobile policies, so at least, and if anything, it will have the positive effect of sparing us a generalized 70 km/h speed limit on urban motorways.

Perhaps also it will become again more PC to propose new urban motorways and roads in fast developing metro areas like Toulouse, Bordeaux, Montpellier, etc. We'll see. But the past few days have been something of a watershed (and the Gilets Jaunes movement is not over yet!).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*D902 Col de Vars*

Col de Vars is a 2108 meter high pass between the Ubaye and Durance river valleys in the Alps. It's one of many mountain passes on the "Route des Grandes Alpes" (former N202).


D902 Col de Vars-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


D902 Col de Vars-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


D902 Col de Vars-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


D902 Col de Vars-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Narbonne*

hno::nuts:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1069159002154635264


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A57 Toulon*

A declaration of public utility (DUP) has been issued for the six lane expansion of A57 in the eastern suburbs of Toulon. This is a 7.5 km section from the tunnel in Toulon to the A570 interchange in La Garde.

Earlier reporting indicated a construction start in 2019. Recent developments elsewhere in France showed a construction start relatively quick after a DUP was issued (within 3-9 months).


----------



## Minato ku

:laugh:

Breaking news reported by Europe 1 radio station: yesterday, when the announcement that the fuel tax increases would be postponed, Macron wanted also to cancel the new 80 km/h speed limit, but his advisors talked him out of it because it would damage his prime minister they said.
https://twitter.com/Europe1/status/1070195209579843584

If you're a frequent reader of this thread, you may remember that it was the prime minister who was behind the new speed limit ("I want to save lives. I don't care if I'm unpopular!") and Macron was not really convinced but allowed the prime minister to go ahead anyway.

The reason why Macron was not really convinced was itself very Macronesque: that's because according to Macron the beautiful logic of the French speed limit system is to have an odd number of tens (50, 70, 90, 110, 130), and by setting a 80 speed limit we are breaking the beautiful mathematical logic of this system. I'm not kidding! :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've read they are now willing to scrap the next fuel tax hike entirely.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N94 La Roche-de-Rame*

The people of La Roche-de-Rame (south of Briançon) really want a bypass. There are banners all over the village.


N94 La Roche-de-Rame-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N94 La Roche-de-Rame-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


N94 La Roche-de-Rame-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


N94 La Roche-de-Rame-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## g.spinoza

N94 crosses almost all the towns and villages in its path. Briançon, L'Argentiere-la-Bessée, Saint-Clément-sur-Durance, Savines-le-Lac, Chorges, Gap...

But it's still the fastest - and cheapest - way from Turin to Marseille.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The new A36-N19 interchange near Sevenans in Eastern France will open to traffic on Thursday (13 December). The actual N19 four laning project will be completed in early 2020.










>> http://a36.aprr.com/le-chantier/art...-service-dune-nouvelle-connexion-a36-n19.html


----------



## tunnel owl

Minato ku said:


> :laugh:
> If you're a frequent reader of this thread, you may remember that it was the prime minister who was behind the new speed limit ("I want to save lives. I don't care if I'm unpopular!") and Macron was not really convinced but allowed the prime minister to go ahead anyway.



I would really like to know if french accident numbers are significantly higher on rural roads than in Germany, Italy or Benelux-countries e. g.. I know it´s subjective but I remember driving that roads in France feels very safe. I spotted no one driving faster. Recently when I came back to Germany from Italy, beeing used to 90 km/h limit there, it was really strange to drive narrow curvy roads in Bavaria with 100 km/h.


----------



## g.spinoza

What's the point of that? There's an interchange very close to it.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^I think the old interchange will be close.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The current interchange is very tight and has no space for an upgrade to a proper interchange between a six lane motorway (A36) and four lane expressway (N19), so it is being replaced by the new double-trumpet interchange.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B94 Guillestre - Briançon*

A couple of photos of N94 between Guillestre and Briançon, in the Alps.


N94 Guillestre - Briançon-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N94 Guillestre - Briançon-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


N94 Guillestre - Briançon-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


N94 Guillestre - Briançon-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


N94 Guillestre - Briançon-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A36-N19 Sevenans*



ChrisZwolle said:


> The new A36-N19 interchange near Sevenans in Eastern France will open to traffic on Thursday (13 December).


A photo by APRR:


----------



## MichiH

*D902 Rocade Arc-en-Ciel Toulouse*

The _voie express_ was extended by 600m from exit 4 to exit 5. It was opened on 19th October 2018. Source. It connects the Airport to the future Exhibition center.

*D902:* Beauzelle (4) – Beauzelle (5) 0.6km (? to 19th October 2018) – ? – map

I drove the new section in early December and can confirm that it's in service


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Col de la Madeleine 2.0*

It turns out there are two _Col de la Madeleine_ mountain passes. The famous one is south of Albertville, but there is also one on D902 (ex-N202) between Lanslebourg and Bonneval-sur-Arc, not really far away from the famous one either.



D902 Col de la Madeleine-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


D902 Col de la Madeleine-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


D902 Col de la Madeleine-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## sponge_bob

Minato ku said:


> Like wow! I would never have thought possible I could ever hear that on French television during my lifetime! And said by a member of the Parisian elites in a show of, by, and for the elites!
> 
> So my feeling is something is changing, and changing fast.


France is not as 'green' as the metropolitan media 'thinks' and it never was. Actually metropolitan medias are bubbles of their own in every country. 

I think green politics peaked overall in Europe over a decade ago, mainly as a protest movement, and that the green parties are in rapid decline save that the metropolitan media gives them far more airtime than they deserve. I'd shoot most of the bastards if I was in charge and I would shoot 100% of known greens who ever attended a Grand Ecole in Paris. 

The problem now is: 

1. France is ungovernable.
2. The national debt will climb rapidly past 100% now, in my opinon. Instead of The PIGS we actually have the FIGS, as Portugal finally has its debt under control unlike France. 
3. There will be no money for investment in roads where they are badly needed, I think widening will account for most of the road spend from now on.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Green parties only enjoy some support in a few European countries. The effect of the Green Party taking seats that the social democrats lose is only a thing in the Benelux, Germany and maybe a few other countries, support isn't as big elsewhere.

In most parliaments they only have a few seats. In Norway, the Green Party has only 1 out of 169 seats. In Austria, they have 0, In Poland they have 0, in Portugal they have 2 out of 230 seats, just to name some countries that aren't as visible in the European mainstream media.


----------



## g.spinoza

Unfortunately, many instances of the Greens are taken over by other mainstreams parties. In Italy both Democratic Party and 5 stars are NIMBYs or skeptical on infrastructures building.


----------



## MichiH

Green party is the favorite party of German journalists (26.9%): https://de.statista.com/statistik/d...erenz-von-politikjournalisten-in-deutschland/. Maybe it's simliar in France? :dunno:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It appears to be the same in the Netherlands. The Dutch mainstream media is in a state of total hysteria about climate change and sustainability, it wouldn't surprise me if this is by far the most produced topic of news articles by the public broadcaster. It's on the news literally every day and usually multiple times per day. It feels like a propaganda machine to justify expensive "green" reforms.


----------



## belerophon

sponge_bob said:


> France is not as 'green' as the metropolitan media 'thinks' and it never was. Actually metropolitan medias are bubbles of their own in every country.
> 
> I think green politics peaked overall in Europe over a decade ago, mainly as a protest movement, and that the green parties are in rapid decline save that the metropolitan media gives them far more airtime than they deserve. I'd shoot most of the bastards if I was in charge and I would shoot 100% of known greens who ever attended a Grand Ecole in Paris.
> 
> The problem now is:
> 
> 1. France is ungovernable.
> 2. The national debt will climb rapidly past 100% now, in my opinon. Instead of The PIGS we actually have the FIGS, as Portugal finally has its debt under control unlike France.
> 3. There will be no money for investment in roads where they are badly needed, I think widening will account for most of the road spend from now on.


In some ways i think the same as you. I would shoot a lot of people in some mood. But i don't think we should start writing like this here. Otherwise this will get another balkans thread. 

For me the biggest bias is: greens might adress a real problem, but they provide no solution other than hindering a lot of things without giving a solution. Just shouting problems is okay for normal people. If i see a problem in any process it is my privilege to demonstrate it and ask politicians to find a solution. But as political party blaming and blocking is no concept. These want to be the experts elected by us. Thats not enough. 

Thats why greens are elected mostly by people who can afford going around the problems they cause and hated by those who cant. 

Thats why i don't think they talk about problems who are not there. In this case i like them. In their solution-making i hate them. 


But whith other partys its not unlike...


----------



## Kanadzie

ChrisZwolle said:


> It appears to be the same in the Netherlands. The Dutch mainstream media is in a state of total hysteria about climate change and sustainability, it wouldn't surprise me if this is by far the most produced topic of news articles by the public broadcaster. It's on the news literally every day and usually multiple times per day. It feels like a propaganda machine to justify expensive "green" reforms.


Which is really odd, since NL is really *the *country that "knows how to deal with it" the most of anyone. I mean maybe add an extra pump on the polder or few shovels in the dike and done.


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> It appears to be the same in the Netherlands. The Dutch mainstream media is in a state of total hysteria about climate change and sustainability, it wouldn't surprise me if this is by far the most produced topic of news articles by the public broadcaster. It's on the news literally every day and usually multiple times per day. It feels like a propaganda machine to justify expensive "green" reforms.


I know it is a road forum but I wouldn't dismiss environmental problems as "obsession of metropolitan bubble". That way we risk ending up in our own bubble 

The biggest problem I do have with the Greens is the fact that they often pick the wrong battles. If the climate change is a real threat (which I think it is) then what is the point of quick closure of all the German nuclear power stations? 
We still have to produce electricity to power all the electric cars coming to our roads. Let's face it, in the long term diesel is an obsolete technology.

As for France. Rural regions are always more car dependent than cities. On a national level 80% of French population is urban (according to Wiki), the question is what is the percentage living in the really big cities where public transport should be preferred mode of transport.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I would dismiss the idea that you don't need to rely a car in cities, since the evidence clearly shows otherwise. If the French population is 80% urbanized, but car usage is 85% of passenger kilometers, it shows that urban areas rely on cars to a very large extent as well. I think the media is confusing "city" with "inner city", which is a much smaller share of the total urban population.


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> I would dismiss the idea that you don't need to rely a car in cities, since the evidence clearly shows otherwise. If the French population is 80% urbanized, but car usage is 85% of passenger kilometers, it shows that urban areas rely on cars to a very large extent as well. I think the media is confusing "city" with "inner city", which is a much smaller share of the total urban population.


I have sympathy with people who really need car but model where we rely on cars in places like London or Paris is recipe for disaster in the long term.

High levels of reliance on cars have many reasons. For some people it is the type of job they do, for other it is location (of job or home). But let's not beat around the bushes, there is also a lot of pure laziness.

I live in London, 10 min walk to station and even less to shops. Yet my neighbour can drive to local shop (less than 10 min walk away) a few times a day. This is bonkers. If we start designing transport policy around people like him we are doomed. 
Just look at Dublin. They neglected public transport and the city suffers in endless jams. I guess, they could do with some greens pushing for better public transport 

Myself I actually love driving (even if, ironically, I don't own a car) but I can't expect that in the future governments will provide me with cheap fuels and toll free roads. Lifestyles will have to change, this is simply unavoidable.

We should discuss how to protect rural population, which really will have to rely on cars for a long time, rather than dismiss genuine need for change in most heavily populated areas.


----------



## MichiH

geogregor said:


> If the climate change is a real threat (which I think it is) then what is the point of quick closure of all the German nuclear power stations?
> We still have to produce electricity to power all the electric cars coming to our roads. Let's face it, in the long term diesel is an obsolete technology.


Nuclear technology is the biggest issue for German (Greens).
Climate change is the 2nd most important issue for German (Greens).
The climate change strategy contained having more Diesel cars to reduce CO2 emmission... :lol:

When I was in elementary school back in late 1980s, we were taught that forest dieback is the bad thing we must fight against. It was replaced by climate change and the next story is already in the pipe: pollinator decline. I recently read that this issue is much more relevant for mankind than climate change which has only little impact on us compared to pollinator decline which is really, really heavy!


----------



## Stuu

MichiH said:


> When I was in elementary school back in late 1980s, we were taught that forest dieback is the bad thing we must fight against. It was replaced by climate change and the next story is already in the pipe: pollinator decline. I recently read that this issue is much more relevant for mankind than climate change which has only little impact on us compared to pollinator decline which is really, really heavy!


Those are all the result of the same problem: humans are damaging the environment so badly that it threatens our own existence. Serious changes will happen sooner or later, whether we like it or not


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, but this attitude of "in 2 decades the world is going to end so we will implement whatever we find good for you, so you only have to pay up" is exactly what got people up in arms. 

High taxation on energy erodes the lower middle class into the poor working class. It's becoming a major concern, I think the yellow vest movement has had political impact across Europe, politicians become aware that people won't just accept anything in the name of climate.

The problem of politicians is that they are in a bubble, aided by the media and parts of the large corporations who will play along to make a name for themselves. However, it is the normal people who have to pay the brunt of the reforms, even if you increase taxes onto large companies, they'll just transfer that to the end consumer. 

You can't expect Jean average who drives a 10 year old diesel car to be able to afford a € 40,000 electric car. There must be viable alternatives before you start to tax the crap out of fuel.


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes, but this attitude of "in 2 decades the world is going to end so we will implement whatever we find good for you, so you only have to pay up" is exactly what got people up in arms.
> 
> High taxation on energy erodes the lower middle class into the poor working class. It's becoming a major concern, I think the yellow vest movement has had political impact across Europe, politicians become aware that people won't just accept anything in the name of climate.
> 
> The problem of politicians is that they are in a bubble, aided by the media and parts of the large corporations who will play along to make a name for themselves. However, it is the normal people who have to pay the brunt of the reforms, even if you increase taxes onto large companies, they'll just transfer that to the end consumer.
> 
> You can't expect Jean average who drives a 10 year old diesel car to be able to afford a € 40,000 electric car. There must be viable alternatives before you start to tax the crap out of fuel.


But to drive change you will need certain level energy and fuel prices, especially the dirtiest forms of energy. The best incentive to be efficient is the financial one.

Saying that we shouldn't do anything because it will cost money is as stupid as saying the world will end in two decades.

I really wonder how will attitudes change if the heatwaves like the one this year become norm, or even new "cool" years. So far we were able to pretend that not much is changing, it is all fine, we have decades to change things. 
The world will not end in 2 decades. But you might be surprised how quickly things can get rather unpleasant...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Sure, but the speed on which these things are implemented / forced largely determines the cost. Is there really a need to make drastic reforms in 2 decades instead of 4 or 5? 

The problem is bigger than just fuel taxes. Many of these yellow vests are in the lower middle class or working class, though they are typically not the poorest people. However they often have jobs that 20 or 30 years ago could afford a middle-class lifestyle, with a decent car, house and vacations. These people now have trouble to make ends meet every month. This erosion of the (lower) middle class is becoming a more pronounced problem and high taxes on energy isn't helping at all.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Whoopsie-poopsie.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1074956870270574593


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *N2:* Crepy-en-Valois – east of Gondreville 3.5km (<= 2016 to Late 2018) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
> *N2:* east of Gondreville – Vaumoise/Vauciennes 3.5km (<= 2016 to Late 2018) – ? – map


To be opened tomorrow 

http://abonne.lunion.fr/22950/artic...la-rn2-entre-soissons-et-paris-ouvre-mercredi


----------



## MichiH

Finally news on this :banana:



MichiH said:


> *N70:* Saint-Eusebe – Montchanin-East 4km (Fall 2015 to 2018?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


Traffic will be diverted onto the new carriageway (May 15)

Problem with concrete; A second refurbishment was done; Today, everything is definitely *finished and the 2x2 lanes will open as soon as the green light* is given. (December 16)


----------



## MichiH

^^ I just say that the "BAD" is changing. There's always something which is worse than the thing before. I don't say that anything is false.

Why do most Germans think that nuclear power is bad and power plants must be closed immediately but in many other countries, e.g. France, much more people think that it's not that bad or even good? For instance good to slow down the climate change?

You could weigh what's worse. Climate change or a nuclear disaster..


----------



## TM_Germany

I think "bad" is just what is coming to light. Climate change is "worse" than the ozone hole because the ozone hole is "fixed" now. I also don't know if most Germans actually think coal power plants are better than nuclear ones. I always had the impression that it was just a political decision because the push for an energy transition come from the Fukushima desaster. It's hard to use that as a reason (and therefore the political capital from it) for rebuilding the power supply when you don't shut down the nuclear power plants then.


----------



## Stuu

Why were posts deleted?


----------



## belerophon

MichiH said:


> ^^ I just say that the "BAD" is changing. There's always something which is worse than the thing before. I don't say that anything is false.
> 
> Why do most Germans think that nuclear power is bad and power plants must be closed immediately but in many other countries, e.g. France, much more people think that it's not that bad or even good? For instance good to slow down the climate change?
> 
> You could weigh what's worse. Climate change or a nuclear disaster..


I don't know, why our post went missing. What people forget is, that there is not enough uranium to run much more power plants. in the last decades much of the used up uranium was from old warheads of rockets luckily unused in cold war. 

I read in the newspaper an old man saying: but i know we learned in school how much energy is in a single gram of uranium, so it is a good thing!

Except the risks, it is not about how much energy is in a single gram, but how much you need to dig to get that gram, and that you need to enrich it afterwards. the price for uranium rises as for all other fuels, because costly fuel are avoided which evens the field. 

I think it makes no sense to destruct functioning power plants (not energetical and not ecological) no matter if it are nuclear plants oder coal plants... i would just not built new ones. It the same as with throwing away cars to built some who emit less CO2, because the construction of new cars emits much more...


----------



## keber

belerophon said:


> What people forget is, that there is not enough uranium to run much more power plants. in the last decades much of the used up uranium was from old warheads of rockets luckily unused in cold war.


There is still enough uranium in current mines for over 100 years. And there are billions of tonnes of uranium in seawater. Extraction will soon become economically viable. And breeder reactors are also becoming more and more technically advanced which make nuclear energy renewable. So I wouldn't write off nuclear energy yet.


----------



## Stuu

MichiH said:


> You could weigh what's worse. Climate change or a nuclear disaster..


Locally/regionally nuclear disaster. On a bigger scale climate change.. 

Nuclear disasters in advanced western countries are extremely unlikely. Even Fukushima, whilst obviously terrible, has only affected a small area of Japan. Closing all the nuclear generation in Germany was highly irrational


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ Tsunami is a Japanese word. Coastal Japan has a lot of risk of them and of earthquakes, it is an active area. But Tsunami risk for most of Germany is... extremely low. That the Fukushima event was used as political cover to phase-out nuclear power in Germany is just so very very irrational to say the least. Especially considering the French :lol:



belerophon said:


> I don't know, why our post went missing. What people forget is, that there is not enough uranium to run much more power plants. in the last decades much of the used up uranium was from old warheads of rockets luckily unused in cold war.
> 
> I read in the newspaper an old man saying: but i know we learned in school how much energy is in a single gram of uranium, so it is a good thing!
> 
> Except the risks, it is not about how much energy is in a single gram, but how much you need to dig to get that gram, and that you need to enrich it afterwards. the price for uranium rises as for all other fuels, because costly fuel are avoided which evens the field.
> 
> I think it makes no sense to destruct functioning power plants (not energetical and not ecological) no matter if it are nuclear plants oder coal plants... i would just not built new ones. It the same as with throwing away cars to built some who emit less CO2, because the construction of new cars emits much more...



This is only because de-arming of the cold war made a lot of surplus nuclear weapons that were recycled. There are a lot of uranium mines existing and they are not making much money... price is low and companies are mostly in loss... there is much excess uranium supply than demand. And, I don't want to sound like Keynes but any solution doesn't need to last "forever", the nuclear power plant only will work for 50 years or something.


----------



## g.spinoza

Isn't all this off topic?


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> Isn't all this off topic?


It is. But it also confirms that media makes headlines, stories and fears!
Not just about pure ecological topics but also about road construction. Some contries prefer building expressways with motorway standard but don't call it motorway just because an expressway sounds less bad et cetera...



MichiH said:


> Green party is the favorite party of German journalists (26.9%): https://de.statista.com/statistik/d...erenz-von-politikjournalisten-in-deutschland/. Maybe it's simliar in France? :dunno:





ChrisZwolle said:


> It appears to be the same in the Netherlands. The Dutch mainstream media is in a state of total hysteria about climate change and sustainability, it wouldn't surprise me if this is by far the most produced topic of news articles by the public broadcaster. It's on the news literally every day and usually multiple times per day. It feels like a propaganda machine to justify expensive "green" reforms.


----------



## MichiH

btw: If anyone is interested, the news article about pollinator decline (in German). It's published by spektrum.de, the German version of Scientific American
They say that the impact to mankind is more serious than climate change


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Road authorities can do their part to combat the pollinator problem: plant flowers along the road and mow the grass less often. In most countries there is a substantial right-of-way for this, but they only plant trees (Belgium, Germany) or mow it all (France, Netherlands).


----------



## g.spinoza

Is the ramp going from A6a to the Periph' Exterieur open? Google routes you through it, but recent pictures from Streetview show it closed, as it is on Openstreetmap.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Satellite imagery from May 2018 shows it closed too.

This ramp has limited function as traffic would normally use A6b. There is also a very substandard entrance on the left, they probably closed it to ease congestion.


----------



## g.spinoza

I suspected that as well.

This creates an awkward situation, though. Coming from the A6, if you take the A6a (which is left) there is no way to take the Periph towards the right; conversely, if you take the A6b (on the right), there is no way to get to the Periph towards the left. Basically you cannot exit at Port de Gentilly coming directly from the A6.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> *N2:* Crepy-en-Valois – east of Gondreville 3.5km (<= 2016 to Late 2018) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
> *N2:* east of Gondreville – Vaumoise/Vauciennes 3.5km (<= 2016 to Late 2018) – ? – map
> 
> 
> 
> To be opened tomorrow
> 
> http://abonne.lunion.fr/22950/artic...la-rn2-entre-soissons-et-paris-ouvre-mercredi
Click to expand...

It was opened with one lane per direction in September 2018 but 2x2 on 19th December 2018. The construction of the first bridge (over railway) began in 2013. Source

I'm not sure whether it was opened 2x1 or 1x2 but OSM had indicated that both carriageways are in service for a while. That counts for my overview.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The N70 is reported open with 2x2 lanes at Montchanin. It seems to be some 3 kilometers long from Montchanin-le-Haut to the N80 roundabout.

>> http://www.creusot-infos.com/news/s...-montceau-se-rapprochent-grace-a-la-rcea.html


----------



## Minato ku

I guess I was wrong after all. No lesson has been learnt from the Gilets Jaunes furor. :|


> Lille: speed limited to 70 km/h from February on the ring road
> 
> Le Figaro
> December 21, 2018
> 
> The maximum speed limit on the Lille ring road will change in February from 90km/h to 70km/h to fight pollution, announced today the mayor Martine Aubry (Socialist). "The first time I spoke about it with the prefect was in 2012," recalled Martine Aubry during a press conference.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Because of air pollution, around 1,700 people die prematurely each year in the [Lille] Metropolis, which has 1.2 million inhabitants in 90 communes and is connected by five motorways (Paris, Brussels, Ghent, Valenciennes and Dunkirk) recalled Ms. Aubry.
> 
> This announcement comes as two petitions on the harmful consequences of air pollution in the capital of Flanders, including fine particles, have collected several thousand signatures this week on the internet. "Pollution peaks are breaking all records in the region, and no one seems to care, it's about our health and our children's health,. Let's force public authorities to wake up to the situation and take responsibility in the face of this catastrophic health situation", explains the text of the petition "For the mayor of Lille to act!".
> 
> "These petitions, I have received them positively: there are thousands of Lille inhabitants who feel that it is an absolute necessity of public health and who say to me 'call the [French] State'. I have told them that it was already done", reacted Ms. Aubry, mayor of Lille since 2001. The city also announced its desire to soon expand the perimeter of streets where speed is limited to 30 km/h. This limit already affected several sectors since the implementation of a new traffic plan in 2016.
> 
> http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2...-a-70-kmh-des-fevrier-sur-le-peripherique.php


Let's recall that Ms Aubry, a former Socialist minister in the 1990s, is only the Mayor of the small commune of Lille (200,000 inhabitants), she is not the president of the Lille Metropolis (1.2 million inhabitants), but apparently she behaves as if she was, with disregard for the non-entity that she helped get elected at the head of the Metropolis (to prevent the Right-wing parties from winning the presidency of the Metropolis)...

This has already given bad ideas in the rest of France. The left-wing and heavily biased (think of a Left version of Fox News) La Dépêche du Midi, which opposes the Right-wing mayor of Toulouse, is already launching the debate in Toulouse and openly challenging the mayor of Toulouse:


> Toulouse: as in Lille in February 2019, should we decrease the speed to 70 km/h on the ring road?
> 
> La Dépêche du Midi
> December 22, 2018
> 
> *In order to fight pollution, Martine Aubry has asked and obtained from the prefect the decision to reduce the speed limit to 70 km/h on the Lille ring road. Should this measure which will be applied from February inspire Jean-Luc Moudenc, the mayor of Toulouse?*
> 
> [...]
> 
> Contacted by "La Dépêche du Midi" this Saturday, Mr. Moudenc considers "that in this matter, we must be pragmatic and provide responses that vary according to local situations. I am not sure that such a reduction in speed would have much effect on the pollution of our ring road; otherwise, I would answer 'why not?' In the case of our ring road the problem is that its congestion during rush hours causes the emission of polluting gases in a strong and very concentrated way. It is this excess traffic and congestion, much more than speed, which is a source of pollution", explains the Mayor of Toulouse.
> 
> [...]
> 
> https://www.ladepeche.fr/article/20...fevrier-2019-faut-abaisser-vitesse-70-km.html


La Dépêche du Midi is in fact much worse than Fox News, because at least Fox News is not the only media in the US, there are also liberal media to challenge Fox News, but in the Toulouse region La Dépêche du Midi is the only regional media. There is no other newspaper, and no real regional TV or radio channel that is used as a news source by the local population.

The speed limit on the Toulouse ring road was already decreased from 110 to 90 km/h in 2007, and this applies all days, day and night, and was extended to the motorways leading to the ring road, up to 15 km from the ring road (which leads to the ridiculous situation where if you travel from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic in the middle of the night you suddenly have to drive at 90 km/h on completely empty motorways and ring roads for nearly 25 km).

The way French politics work, at the next municipal elections in 2020 probably the left-wing opponent of the mayor of Toulouse will propose to reduce the speed to 70 km/h, supported by La Dépêche du Midi, and either the current mayor will give in and agree to reduce it, or he will be defeated, if not this time around then in 2026, and the next left-wing mayor will reduce it anyway, no matter what car drivers think.

And when the next Gilets Jaunes' explosion takes place (of note: half, yes half, of all French speed radars have been either destroyed or covered with paint and plastic bags in the past 2 months according to government sources), the media and politicians will once again not understand why people are so angry...


----------



## Minato ku

I can't resist translating the comments following the article in the La Dépêche du Midi. 

I'm only translating the first two pages.


> Driving at 70 km/h on the Lille ring road will allow motorists to count rubbish on the roadside... Considering their number ..... good luck!





> Let them impose 20 km/h on us and be done with it!





> And why not 17 km/h since we're at it?





> Those autophobic types are seriously starting to get on our nerves!
> 
> Fortunately Moudenc, for once, is saying sensible things.





> And why not 50 km/h!! And then on the city streets we'll push the car with our hands!!





> And why not make the entire ring road pedestrian ah ah ah... what a band of idiots...





> In other times, other places and other weather conditions I with great pleasure use a mule.
> 
> Maybe it would be useful to bring this animal to those who decide on speed limits.
> 
> What do those working on the Hyperloop at Francazal [a suburb of Toulouse where E. Musk is setting up a Hyperloop factory] think about it?


:rofl:


> There's an even simpler solution: we close the ring road and we ban all vehicles except emergency vehicles in the entire [Toulouse] Metropolis. Between the motorway exits, we set up some light trams where the vehicles will be transported on shuttles at the preferential tariff of 2,000 euros. For the collection of garbage, we do it in carts drawn by asses recruited at ENA [the top school forming the highest civil servants and many politicians] and among politicians and Greens. Salary: the minimum income. As for the fleets of official cars for politicians, we sell them, and the chauffeurs are reconverted as coachmen of the aforementioned carts.





> Of course we have to reduce the speed limit to 70 km/h. That way the speed cameras will generate even more money and make up for the losses since the "events" [the destruction or impairment of half of all speed cameras by the Gilets Jaunes]. Better still, downgrade the ring road to a 30 km/h speed zone, that way everybody will be caught by the speed cameras and it will generate even more money than the congestion charge once envisioned [the French government wanted to introduce congestion charge areas in the large French cities based on the London congestion charge, but they dropped the idea after the start of the Gilets Jaunes protests]!!!





> Why not during rush hours! But in the middle of the night or outside of rush hours 70 km/h is counter-productive.





> The ring road at 70 km/h????.... Sick and tired of these types of solutions which solve nothing... quite the opposite... Let those who propose these types of restrictions share a week in the life of those who have to use the ring roads.





> During rush hours, I propose 5 km/h, because sometimes you can easily reach 15 km/h if you don't pay attention...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Apparently they want 70 km/h on the périphérique of Lyon as well.

70 km/h is a proper speed limit for urban arterials without local access, not full-fledged motorways. 

This is just government-imposed bullying on its citizens. No wonder you have _Gilets Jaunes_...


----------



## Minato ku

Good news for a change! Despite opposition from all local parties except the ruling one, the mammoth 6-lane 5.4-km overseas viaduct in Réunion is almost completed. Work should end in the first half of 2019. 

The massive dike that will prolong the viaduct towards the south has unfortunately not started yet, and is severally delayed, because of local opposition by Greenstremists and NIMBYs who oppose the opening of stone quarries on the island, and have launched dozens of lawsuits. According to them, the quarries would be a multi-factor danger to the population, from risks of provoking earthquakes to releasing dangerous nuclear dusts. :crazy2:

This opposition, which is partly political (some local mayors opposed to the president of the regional council) and partly fake-newsy (citizens up in arms against pretty much anything in France these days), has so far blocked the quarrying of stones needed to build the dike, so either the regional council will have to import stones from Madagascar or wait for the lawsuits to play out.

As a result, the builders of the motorway now say they could open the viaduct, and the viaduct only, in 2020, by connecting it to the old motorway below the cliffs, at a cost of 8 to 12 million euros. That way, motorists could use 7 km out of 12 (i.e. the viaduct and its access dikes) as early as 2020, while the long 5 km dike would remain to be built later. The viaduct runs parallel to the most dangerous part of the old motorway, so this would already greatly improve security and reliability of the road (no more closures as have been taking place every years due to falling rocks).

Some videos :






Latest video. The viaduct (or rather its access dike) starts at 1:45 in the video, and the 5-km dike to be built after the viaduct starts (or will start) at 6:35.






Given the multi-faceted opposition to this project, both in Réunion (Left parties favoring public transportation, Greens opposed as they always are) and in Metropolitan France (national media publishing sensationalist stories along the lines of "look how our Metropolitan French tax money is used to build the costliest motorway per km in the world"), it's a miracle that this project has become reality at all. It's all due to the sheer determination of the Right-wing president of the regional council, who has single-handedly carried this project since his victory (and defeat of the long time Communist president) in the regional elections of 2010 (the former Communist president favored a tram line running in a tunnel to be bored inside the cliff, but this project was going nowhere, and many opposed the tunnel in the first place, for the same reason as NIMBYs oppose tunnels in Italy, toxic dusts, risks of soil tremors, etc).

I have a feeling, however, that given the level of opposition to this project, this is probably the last major road project in Réunion (perhaps even France).


----------



## LtBk

No wonder the Socialists got their asses beaten badly in 2017. Is the car lobby in France weak?


----------



## Kanadzie

seems like it died when they shot Georges Besse


----------



## g.spinoza

Awful.


----------



## LtBk

It seems the French left borrowed the anti-speed mentality from Anglophone countries.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Kanadzie said:


> seems like it died when they shot Georges Besse


Well, since I LOLed a lot when I read your post above, I hope I won't be _fouetté_ (@your signature )!

:shifty:


----------



## sponge_bob

LtBk said:


> It seems the French left borrowed the anti-speed mentality from Anglophone countries.


They borrowed it from French Greens who grew that mentality up their own arses.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A620*

Ground was broken today for the six lane expansion of a 2.4 km section of A620 in Toulouse, on the south side of the city between exits 20 and 23. It is planned to be completed by early 2022.










>> https://france3-regions.francetvinf...secteur-rangueil-du-peripherique-1602229.html

>> http://www.occitanie.developpement-...ue-a620-section-rangueil-lespinet-a24227.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A630 Bordeaux*

Construction has also started today on the widening of a section of A630, the Bordeaux Ring Road. The exit 4 - exit 5 segment will be widened to six lanes at a cost of € 31 million. It is planned to be completed by late 2020.

If I'm correct, there are now six lanes from exit 9, the plan is to have exit 4-10 completed in 2022. It is being widened in several phases, the exit 9-10 segment was completed in September 2018.

>> https://www.sudouest.fr/2019/01/07/...n-nouveau-troncon-en-travaux-5711552-2780.php


----------



## General Maximus

New signs on the A63 between Bordeaux and the Spanish border are now displaying Bilbao. Photo taken by me yesterday.


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## ChrisZwolle

There used to be an early 1990s style sign with the next exit. VINCI is replacing those all over southern France, this one was replaced for the six lane widening project.

Hendaye was previously signed, I think Bilbao is an improvement.


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## General Maximus

The widening project is still ongoing between the first and the last péage after Spain...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Roselend Dam*

The _Barrage de Roselend_ (Roselend Dam) is a dam in the French Alps, between the Cormet de Roselend pass and the town of Beaufort, east of Albertville.

The dam was built between 1955 and 1962. The actual power station is 13 kilometers away and 1250 meters lower along N90 south of Albertville. The altitude difference powers the generators. 

You can drive across the dam, it is some kind of local road, not a route départementale. The Mont Blanc can be seen if the conditions are clear.


Barrage de Roselend-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Barrage de Roselend-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


Barrage de Roselend-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


Barrage de Roselend-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


Barrage de Roselend-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## General Maximus

Wasn't far from there earlier today. I'm now in Grenoble on my way to Paris...


----------



## General Maximus

If anyone is looking for a campsite in Paris, I can recommend the Porte de la Chapelle entry from Paris city centre and Péréphérique onto the A1. I drove past there earlier this afternoon, and that's where all the road geeks from Africa camp out. Loads of tents on the slip onto the A1. I wasn't prepared so I couldn't take any pictures.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Like this:


----------



## General Maximus

That's exactly what I saw. And loads of backpack tents on the side. Shocking, really...


----------



## Luki_SL

^^ 100m away : https://www.google.pl/maps/@48.9004...ibkONyM2W38hNDujsxgw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=pl :hide:


----------



## General Maximus

And the authorities just leave them there. Not very human... #NotMyEurope


----------



## Kanadzie

General Maximus said:


> If anyone is looking for a campsite in Paris, I can recommend the Porte de la Chapelle entry from Paris city centre and Péréphérique onto the A1. I drove past there earlier this afternoon, and that's where all the road geeks from Africa camp out. Loads of tents on the slip onto the A1. I wasn't prepared so I couldn't take any pictures.


The most beautiful homeless encampment I saw was once at a sliproad to the 110/Harbor Fwy in downtown Los Angeles. They had somehow a sofa with a topless woman on it which I found curious. It was a nice place to set up though, with its palm trees and gleaming skyscrapers in the background. It seemed most of the vagrants preferred living on the other side of town in a really ugly run-down area though.


----------



## geogregor

I'm surprised nobody removed them, even just for the safety reasons. Not their own, the drivers'. Someone might try to veer off the lane to avoid vagrant crossing or just standing at the edge of the traffic lane.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A61 Toulouse - Narbonne*

The first stage of the A61 widening between Toulouse and Narbonne has commenced today: a 14 kilometer segment from A66 to the Aire de Port-Lauragais. No completion date is given, I suppose 2022.

>> https://www.20minutes.fr/toulouse/2...arbonne-enfin-parti-travaux-elargissement-a61

Map:


----------



## General Maximus

Brought to you live by yours truly from the A26 between Reims and Troyes as two snowplows are moving very slowly to clear the roads forcing track to stack up for miles behind them. I've been in it over an hour now...


----------



## Kanadzie

can you not access a local road and get back on ahead of them?


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## ChrisZwolle

The way French toll roads are set up, that is quite unlikely. Interchanges are often some 15 - 20 kilometers apart and the speed limit on alternate roads is only 80 km/h.


----------



## Stuu

Kanadzie said:


> can you not access a local road and get back on ahead of them?


You would have to be confident that the local roads were clear though


----------



## General Maximus

A report by Le Parisien

*Limit at 80 km / h: "It's the Prime Minister, and it was bullshit," says Macron*

"I'm not involved in this matter. It's the Prime Minister, and it was bullshit. Moreover, this measure was not in my program " the president said.

The idea is nevertheless making its way politically. The Parisian revealed on January 11 that an alternative solution was evoked more and more frequently: to allow the prefects to make case by case and select the sections on which this limitation could be lifted.

*There's still hope*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Col de la Madeleine*

I took some photos of the Col de la Madeleine in September. It is the westernmost pass in the Vanoise massif, it connects the Tarentaise and Maurienne Valleys, but the road is so curvy and slow that driving around via Albertville is faster.

I found the road one of the most tiring to drive in the Alps, the road is narrow and the road is extremely curvy, and those curves don't allow for great sightlines, so you can't comfortably cut the corners like you would do elsewhere if there is no opposing traffic. 


Col de la Madeleine-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col de la Madeleine-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col de la Madeleine-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

The pass is advertised as 2000 meters, though most sources put it at 1993 meters. It's probably to make tourists feel good they just clinched another 2 km+ mountain pass.

Col de la Madeleine-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col de la Madeleine-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col de la Madeleine-11 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## General Maximus

ChrisZwolle said:


> I found the road one of the most tiring to drive in the Alps












:lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

As for tiring, try the Gavia pass in Lombardy. I drove there omce, and swore not to do that again.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N90 Feissonnet*

At the bottom of the Col de la Madeleine is N90, a voie express from Albertville to Moutiers. These are some photos near Feissonnet.



N90 Feissonnet-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N90 Feissonnet-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


N90 Feissonnet-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> As for tiring, try the Gavia pass in Lombardy. I drove there omce, and swore not to do that again.


Passo Gavia is the most wacky paved Alpine pass >1500m I've ever driven. It is interesting, but it does require much more attention. It is probably not that comfortable on a busy summer weekend with many cyclists around.

There are many sectors that can only copy with 1 car at a time per direction with passing pays. I almost think they should put some bi-directional traffic signs on the steep descent near the summit.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Col du Petit-Saint-Bernard*

I took some photos of the Col du Petit-Saint-Bernard (2188 m), at the border of France and Italy. The Small Saint Bernard Pass is opposite to the Great Saint Bernard Pass at the Italy-Switzerland border. It is the lower of the two (hence; _petit_). 

The road across the pass used to be part of N90. It was the northernmost road crossing between France and Italy until the Mont Blanc Tunnel opened in 1965. It is currently not kept open during the winter.

1. Hairpin turns above Bourg-Saint-Maurice.

Col du Petit-Saint-Bernard-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

Col du Petit-Saint-Bernard-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

Col du Petit-Saint-Bernard-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

4.

Col du Petit-Saint-Bernard-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

Col du Petit-Saint-Bernard-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

Col du Petit-Saint-Bernard-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

7.

Col du Petit-Saint-Bernard-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## General Maximus

I know the area well. It's beautiful there, but there's not a lot of character in ski-resorts like Tignes or Val d'Isère. Bourg-St Maurice is a lovely town.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A10 Tours-Nord*

A free-flow toll barrier has been implemented at the Tours-Nord interchange of A10. It is the first in France.

Sanef is also building one on A4 east of Metz but evidently Vinci was faster.


----------



## g.spinoza

Does that work with Télépéage too, or do they just record your plate and send you a payment request?


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## Highway89

^^ It works with Télépeage and an app called Ulys.

https://corporate.vinci-autoroutes.com/fr/actualites/voies-free-flow-a10
Google Translate:


> This innovative technology is accessible to electronic toll subscribers as well as users without badges and registered on the Ulys application (Ulys free module). Combining instant vehicle recognition with a personalized smartphone management interface, VINCI Autoroutes' free flow solution streamlines and simplifies the toll transition.


That brings up a question. Via-T (Spanish Electronic Toll device) can be used in different vehicles. Is this allowed in other countries?


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## ChrisZwolle

The standard Liber-T télépéage transponder is not linked to a license plate. Anyone can use it. 

I'm not familiar with the Ulys system. Maybe you have to link the Liber-T badge with a license plate to use open road tolling.


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## ajch

Highway89 said:


> That brings up a question. Via-T (Spanish Electronic Toll device) can be used in different vehicles. Is this allowed in other countries?


Spanish Via-T only work in France in the three first toll in French Basque Country (A63). In the two toll in the Landes (before Bordeaux) Via-T don't work.


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## Vignole

^^
I have Bip&Drive. It works on all French motorways.

https://www.bipdrive.com/


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## g.spinoza

Italian "Telepass europeo" works in all of Spain, Portugal and France. I have tested it in all of northern Spain, southern and eastern France and never failed.


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## Highway89

ajch said:


> Spanish Via-T only work in France in the three first toll in French Basque Country (A63). In the two toll in the Landes (before Bordeaux) Via-T don't work.



Maybe I wasn't clear. I was asking if the same transponder could be used in different vehicles. For instance, if you own a car, a campervan and a motorbike, would you need to buy 3?


----------



## ajch

Highway89 said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear. I was asking if the same transponder could be used in different vehicles. For instance, if you own a car, a campervan and a motorbike, would you need to buy 3?


No. I have two cars and only one device. I change it when i change car (and more that one, i found i forgot to change it and had to pay with credit car)

btw. I also use bit&drive device (works in Spain, Portugal and France). For me is better because of the two additional countries, and less annual fee.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A40 Viaduc de Nantua*

A nice photo of the 'Viaduc de Nantua' of A40 in the Jura Mountains.









Photo: APRR


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A63 widening*

A timelapse video of a bridge replacement for the A63 widening at the D824 interchange (which is the expressway to Dax). 

It's interesting to see how much work goes into a section of road that you mindlessly drive across in a few seconds.


----------



## Suburbanist

How is the coastal freeway project in Réunion going?


----------



## MattiG

Suburbanist said:


> How is the coastal freeway project in Réunion going?


In or to?


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## General Maximus

On.


----------



## g.spinoza

I drove the entire A86 ring today and I must say I was underwhelmed. I didn't like its inconsistent design (2 lanes, then 3 lanes, then 4, then 2 and so on), low speed limits, some oddities I really don't understand (tunnels on bridges, what are they for?), and I didn't especially like the Duplex tunnel: claustrophobic (2 m clearance), with a very low speed limit (70) and tolled.

At least in the northbound direction, which I drove, there are other oddities:

















Yes, emergency lane and exits are all on the left, I guess this is to match the other carriageway which is above (or below, I'm not sure) it.

I wonder how much the whole A86 and especially the tunnel are used: after all, the periph' is not so distant, it's open to all kinds of traffic and it's free.


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## ChrisZwolle

Inconsistency is generally a weak point of the Parisian motorway system. The system itself is extensive but it has too many bottlenecks and missing connections. Still, off-peak traffic speeds are much better than in e.g. London.

According to VINCI, there are 35,600 vehicles using the tunnel on a daily basis. Which is not a lot compared to other A86 sections, but on the other hand this almost guarantees a free-flow ride along the west side of Paris. It also results in a lower truck and van volume on nearby sections of A86. 

The south and east sides of A86 are often so congested that taking the Boulevard Périphérique may be faster when traveling from A1 to A10. In addition A/N104 is too far out and congested as well. 

I took N118 > A86 > A1 last time I passed through the city. Another interesting route is N118 all the way to the Seine and then D910 to the Périphérique.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A85 Angers - Vierzon*

Two bridge expansion projects on A85 have been completed 1 March. These are two bridges across the Cher River and the floodplain. 

A85 was built with 6 two-lane bridges between 1997 and 2007. Due to low traffic volumes, the bridges were built on a single span to save money. They are now all being expanded to two spans. 

3 bridge expansions have been completed between Tours and Vierzon. Another 3 are ongoing between Angers and Tours, which are planned to be completed in mid-2019.

An August 2018 satellite image of the Cher River crossing.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A41 / A43 / N201 Chambéry*

A declaration of public utility (DUP) has been issued for the reconstruction of the A41 / A43 / N201 interchange at Chambéry. 

The plan is to build new connector roads to/from Annecy/Genève to relieve the existing toll plaza. This toll plaza will then only be used by traffic to and from Lyon, which could help unplug this notorious winter sports bottleneck.

Construction will commence in 2019 and is scheduled for completion by 2022.


----------



## verreme

According to news reports, France is collapsing due to protests, domestic terrorism and political inability to handle the country and its citizens. However, the truth is always stubborn: the economy keeps working, companies need to be awarded contracts, and politicians are still keen on cutting ribbons or laying first stones so that the French political machine doesn't stop moving and people in suits smile in pictures.

Here's a summary of road projects that have been grossly unnoticed. Of course, there are many more in other regions of France I don't know so well. I'll start by the one closest to Spain, which has finally got over its naming controversy in favour of -at last- something historically consistent: Occitanie.

In *Perpignan*, the city's long-awaited _Rocade Ouest_ was finally completed in July 2018. In this map you can see:

- In red, the new dual-carriageway roadway next to A9 motorway, opened in July, and that now carries D900 road.
- In blue, an existing stretch upgraded to a dual-carriageway road with direct connectors under roundabouts for left turns.
- In purple, the old alignment of D900 through an industrial area. It was a circuitous, complex route that made going through the city actually faster at off-peak times.
- The dashed red line is a new bridge over the Têt that started construction in 2018 and is scheduled to be complete in 2020. You can see on Google Street View that construction was well underway in October 2018 (picture below).



















Here's the project page of the bridge if you're curious about it. This is the one about the section opened in July.

Just 60 kilometers north of there, in *Narbonne* construction is underway to build the less-ambitious _Rocade Est_, a two-lane road that will connect the D6009 bypass with A9 motorway and serve the eastern quarters of the city. There will be two intermediate roundabouts. Here's the project page. And here's a map:










A mere 30 kilometers to the north, in *Béziers*, a 2.5 kilometer stretch of the city's _Rocade Nord_ (aka RD 612) is being widened to 2x2 lanes. Map:










(Perhaps we should add it to MichiH's list as it fulfils all criteria).

This project (page) features two grade-separated interchanges which will make D612 a free-flowing 4-lane road for 11 kilometers around Béziers. Final works are being conducted and opening is expected for this Spring.

Still in the Hérault _département_, *Montagnac* has finally got its _déviation_ (bypass), which opened in summer 2018. This town was a bottleneck on D613 (former RN 113) and despite the ubiquitous roundabouts and the mandatory 80 km/h speed limit, driving conditions on this road have enormously improved.










Finally, a minor project in région PACA that keeps going forward, albeit pathetically, is the much-downgraded bypass of Golfe-Juan in Antibes. Initially planned as an expressway, then changed to a twin-tube tunnel due to environmental concerns, then transformed into a two-lane road with sidewalks and traffic lights due to cost, a minuscule stretch started construction in 2017 and opened in summer 2018. In this map you can see in red the new stretch, in blue the one that's still missing and in green the one that achieved to be built.










And that's all for today. I hope this post encourages other French forum members to show us some upgrades in their region(s) .


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Two bridge expansion projects on A85 have been completed 1 March. These are two bridges across the Cher River and the floodplain.
> 
> A85 was built with 6 two-lane bridges between 1997 and 2007. Due to low traffic volumes, the bridges were built on a single span to save money. They are now all being expanded to two spans.
> 
> 3 bridge expansions have been completed between Tours and Vierzon. Another 3 are ongoing between Angers and Tours, which are planned to be completed in mid-2019.


Do you have more info on this project?

It wasn't started as announced:



ChrisZwolle said:


> They will start to duplicate these bridges between 2016 and 2019. The first construction will likely start in July. The cost is € 120 million.





MichiH said:


> I drove there in early October but there were no construction works for new bridges. I just saw renovation works west of the easternmost A85 viaduct to be widened.


I only find outdated data:

https://routes.fandom.com/wiki/Autoroute_française_A85#Futur
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoroute_A85_(France)#Améliorations_en_cours

Is there any project site? Or info when each construction was started or completed?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is a project website: https://www.viaducsa85.fr/mise-en-service-a-2x2-voies-des-viaducs-de-la-vallee-du-cher/


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is a project website: https://www.viaducsa85.fr/mise-en-service-a-2x2-voies-des-viaducs-de-la-vallee-du-cher/


According to a press release, first works did start in November 2016. That's why I couldn't see any construction works in October 2016. If I'm not mistaken, in total 5 sections (with 6 viaducts) are being doubled (west to east):

*A85:* Perree viaduct 1km (November 2017 to Mid 2020) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*A85:* La Roumer viaduct 2km (November 2017 to Mid 2020) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*A85:* west of Langeais – Langeais 1km (November 2017 to Mid 2020) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*A85:* west of Cher viaduct – Saint Aignan 2km (November 2016 to 1st March 2019) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*A85:* Sauldre viaduct Romorantin-Lanthenay 1km (November 2016 to June 2018) [2nd c/w] – project – map


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A43*

Containers have been stacked onto A43 near Modane to protect it from rockfalls. They are stabilizing a rockwall, D1006 is closed and traffic rerouted on A43 (free of tolls). This will take several months. 










>> https://france3-regions.francetvinf...reney-eviter-projections-pierres-1638744.html


----------



## CNGL

verreme said:


> According to news reports, France is collapsing due to protests, domestic terrorism and political inability to handle the country and its citizens. However, the truth is always stubborn: the economy keeps working, companies need to be awarded contracts, and politicians are still keen on cutting ribbons or laying first stones so that the French political machine doesn't stop moving and people in suits smile in pictures.
> 
> Here's a summary of road projects that have been grossly unnoticed. Of course, there are many more in other regions of France I don't know so well. I'll start by the one closest to Spain, which has finally got over its naming controversy in favour of -at last- something historically consistent: Occitanie.


New Aquitaine also borders Spain. For the record, I still take into account the old regions, which I now refer to as "sub-regions" of the new regions. All of the Occitania projects you mentioned are all in the "sub-region" of Languedoc-Roussillon, none in Midi-Pyrenees.


----------



## LtBk

Any complaints about the new speed limits on motorway rings of Lille and Lyon?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A29 Pont de Normandie*

I took some photos of the Pont de Normandie in 2017, on a long-distance trip from Spain to the Netherlands. It was so hot I decided to keep driving until near sunset before I set up on a campsite. It was 38 degrees in Rennes which is very hot for western France. 

The Pont de Normandie (Normandy Bridge) is a cable-stayed bridge, it opened in 1995 and was the longest bridge of this type in the world until a longer bridge opened in Japan in 1999.

Technically the bridge isn't a motorway and is numbered N1029, but this number is not signed. Cyclists are allowed on it.


A29 Pont de Normandie-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


A29 Pont de Normandie-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


A29 Pont de Normandie-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


A29 Pont de Normandie-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


A29 Pont de Normandie-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


A29 Pont de Normandie-12 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> A29 Pont de Normandie-12 by European Roads, on Flickr


This bridge over the Canal du Tancarville is probably the steepest new motorway structure I can remember crossing. I made the mistake of doing it on a Saturday afternoon at the end of July a few years ago so I had plenty of time to think about this!


----------



## alserrod

Cadiz 3rd access, inaugurated in 2014, allow cyclist too

It is 2x2x2 (two lanes for public transport, in the future a tramway, nowadays buses). It was expected to open in 2012 when 2nd first Spanish Constitution anniversary (it was voted in Cadiz), but crisis halted some works and was delayed


----------



## verreme

alserrod said:


> Cadiz 3rd access, inaugurated in 2014, allow cyclist too
> 
> It is 2x2x2 (two lanes for public transport, in the future a tramway, nowadays buses). It was expected to open in 2012 when 2nd first Spanish Constitution anniversary (it was voted in Cadiz), but crisis halted some works and was delayed


It doesn't. I'm not sure if they can use the bus lane, but it's on a separate roadway. On the French bridge, cyclists and cars share the same carriageway.

Which looks very dangerous to me given the steepness of the bridge. When pedalling hard at very low speeds, it's normal to accidentally turn the handlebar. Or even stop to take a break.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A4 diverging diamond interchange*

One of the first DDIs in the world is no more - the Nogent-sur-Marne interchange of A4 near Paris. It has been reconstructed to a conventional interchange.

The French name for a DDI is a 'carrefour à l’indonésienne' (Indonesian intersection), I'm not sure where that was based on... Maybe because Indonesia drives on the left, but so do many countries.

Former situation:









New situation:


----------



## g.spinoza

Too many confused drivers?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A62*

Construction starts next week to rehabilitate the pavement on A62 between Montauban and Toulouse.

To avoid traffic disruption, the works are only done during the night. They will resurface 2 x 34 km carriageway (3 lanes and a shoulder each way) in 2019 and 2020.

Construction is executed in 4 phases;
* april-june & september-november 2019 in direction of Montauban
* april-june & september-november 2020 in direction of Toulouse

The resurfacing is estimated at € 19 million.

It's interesting to see how they avoid traffic impact by working only 4 nights per week (monday-thursday) and not during peak summer traffic. So there is full capacity without restrictions available during the day.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Is the motorway closed at night?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The press release isn't clear (or my French not good enough), but it seems that there is single lane traffic during the night, they say they want to have 2 lanes open by 6:15 and 3 lanes by 7:30 each morning. 

Press release: https://corporate.vinci-autoroutes..../CP - Travaux A62 renovation de chaussees.pdf


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> The press release isn't clear (or my French not good enough), but it seems that there is single lane traffic during the night, they say they want to have 2 lanes open by 6:15 and 3 lanes by 7:30 each morning.
> 
> Press release: https://corporate.vinci-autoroutes..../CP - Travaux A62 renovation de chaussees.pdf




I didn’t see anything there about a lane being open at night, although it doesn’t actually say it’s closed. There’s something about “re-establishing traffic on two lanes” at 6:15 a.m.; I’d guess it’s completely closed before that.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> The press release isn't clear (or my French not good enough), but it seems that there is single lane traffic during the night, they say they want to have 2 lanes open by 6:15 and 3 lanes by 7:30 each morning.
> 
> Press release: https://corporate.vinci-autoroutes..../CP - Travaux A62 renovation de chaussees.pdf


"The works will be carried out exclusively during nights, from monday to thursday.
Every morning, the circulation will be reestablished on 2 lanes, from 6h15' and on 3 lanes from 7h30'."

Actually it doesn't say whether the route will be closed altogether at nights, or opened with 1 lane.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A total closure means no toll income. So there is an incentive for VINCI to keep at least 1 lane open.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Has congestion in the Paris metro area gotten worse over the past few years? Congestion seems to be a thing from early morning to pretty late in the evening, even on Saturdays. While there is still a clear peak, the off-peak traffic in particular seems to have gotten worse, there is a lot of congestion during the day and far beyond 7 p.m., whereas all other major cities become free-flow during those times.

On the other hand, 'red' on Google Maps is still a higher average speed than say in London on the surface streets.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A10 Bordeaux*

VINCI Autoroutes is going to rehabilitate 18 km (2 x 18 = 36 km of carriageway) of A10 north of Bordeaux. This is one of the busiest sections of autoroute under concession, with an average of 110,000 vehicles per day.

They are going to use night works exclusively and not during the holiday seasons. Each night they are rehabilitating 3 km of carriageway.


----------



## g.spinoza

Does anyone know what works are they doing on the A1? I encountered a lot of lane closures, usually the most external one, but being Sunday when I was there there were no people and no machines, so I really couldn't understand what was going on...


----------



## General Maximus

Between Lille and Paris, they close lanes all the time, usually with a hidden reason, and no visible work being carried out. They have signs in the crash barrier, ready to be turned visible when they feel like closing a lane again. Speed limit usually reduced to 110, but I normally don't take any notice. Interesting suggestion, but nothing else.


----------



## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Has congestion in the Paris metro area gotten worse over the past few years?


I have been in jams on the péripherique at midnight on a saturday. Paris is the most epic jam in Europe if you are trying to get around it. 


> On the other hand, 'red' on Google Maps is still a higher average speed than say in London on the surface streets.


That is because London has cameras everywhere and even has 30kph rated speed bumps on main roads at times. London does everything to slow traffic, but traffic overall is not as bad as Paris I think. 

Both are horrible to drive in/around by design. I could not decide which is more hostile.


----------



## g.spinoza

General Maximus said:


> Between Lille and Paris, they close lanes all the time, usually with a hidden reason, and no visible work being carried out. They have signs in the crash barrier, ready to be turned visible when they feel like closing a lane again. Speed limit usually reduced to 110, but I normally don't take any notice. Interesting suggestion, but nothing else.


Thanks, that was my impression, too.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Has congestion in the Paris metro area gotten worse over the past few years? Congestion seems to be a thing from early morning to pretty late in the evening, even on Saturdays. While there is still a clear peak, the off-peak traffic in particular seems to have gotten worse, there is a lot of congestion during the day and far beyond 7 p.m., whereas all other major cities become free-flow during those times.
> 
> On the other hand, 'red' on Google Maps is still a higher average speed than say in London on the surface streets.


I don't know about the past, but on the Peripherique I've been in traffic jams on Sundays, at noon... in all other cities I've been, at that time you could play football in the streets...


----------



## General Maximus

sponge_bob said:


> I have been in jams on the péripherique at midnight on a saturday. Paris is the most epic jam in Europe if you are trying to get around it.
> 
> That is because London has cameras everywhere and even has 30kph rated speed bumps on main roads at times. London does everything to slow traffic, but traffic overall is not as bad as Paris I think.
> 
> Both are horrible to drive in/around by design. I could not decide which is more hostile.


I drive in both Paris and London regularly, but I don't notice much difference, to be honest. Acces into Paris Centre is easier and more straight forward that driving into Central London, but other than that the queues are just as long. Difference are the large amount of cyclists around London. In Paris you've got mopeds to look out for...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*VINCI Autoroutes*

VINCI posted its 2018 annual report. Here are the traffic volumes and development compared to 2017.

These are some pretty bad figures, overall there was a -0,5% decline in distance traveled, with a growth among cars but a decline among trucks. Especially the south has seen a decline.

The A89 figures are wild;
* Bordeaux - Brive: -16.5%
* Brive - Clermont-Ferrand: +118.8%
* Clermont-Ferrand - Lyon: -40.6%

That's a pretty strange development. 


VINCI Autoroutes évolution du trafic 2018-2017 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## almaghrebi

Bonjour,

j'ai eu l'occasion de decouvrir le A86, " *la Super-périphérique*" parisien
j'espere que la video vous plaira :
No Spam


----------



## Kanadzie

g.spinoza said:


> I don't know about the past, but on the Peripherique I've been in traffic jams on Sundays, at noon... in all other cities I've been, at that time you could play football in the streets...


Toronto is that bad too, the surface streets in the downtown and the motorways all around as well...


----------



## g.spinoza

I think I got another speeding ticket in France... this time on the A40, near Geneva... there's an ecoduct construction zone with a 90 km/h speed camera...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is also one on A40 near Annemasse, right before the A40 makes a sharp turn to the west. It is said to be the most productive one in France.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Huh... I remember this intersection well, and I don't think I slowed down a lot...

Let's wait and see


----------



## General Maximus

Is that one still working? The ones on the A16 are still out of order. Courtesy of the yellow vest movement.


----------



## Tharkun92

[email protected] said:


> It's already ruled out by the pro-environment lobby and the Green party (which, it must be reapeated, is in control of transport policies at the Paris city hall, and until 2015 at the Paris Region council, before being voted out of office in December 2015, but still ruling the City of Paris), along the lines of "electric batteries pollute a lot to produce and discard, it will only move the pollution problem away", "it will require way too many power stations" (keep in mind the French Greens HATE nuclear power with a passion), "there will still be pollution due to tire and brake wear-out", "it will destroy the environment in poor African countries due to the quest for rare earth materials".
> 
> More fundamentally, they challenge the very notion that one-third (they claim) of the city's surface is used by private vehicles, electric or thermal makes no difference. The city should be for pedestrians, bicycles, public transportation. The cities must not be "privatized" by single people driving a "big metallic box full of unused space just for one person" (I quote).


I can confirm that : I have had multiple discussions with the 14th disctrict of Paris about their policy of car banning.
No matter your willingness to accelerate the electric car transition as a solution to their ongoing seemingly preoccupation (air pollution) : they just hate the "car" concept. Period.
I think they just hate everything that is not collectivist by nature, and according to them, cars occupy just to much space, geographically speaking.

They don't care much about families with young children, handicaped people, elderly people, people who work far in the suburbs and who don't have any other reasonable choice : according to them, if everyone who don't need to use their cars stop using them, then everything will be ok.

The worst thing is that everything is done without consultation from the inhabitants. Whenever the Paris City Hall have a new idea, like their new project for the Peripherique, they just organize a traversy of a public consultation (as they are legally required to do so), and just go on with it.

The only resort to stopping them from ruining our lives seems to be violence.


----------



## Stuu

[email protected] said:


> Feel free to tell him:
> 
> PS: I see in his tweet he actually said "Paris is the only city in the world that has a 2x4-lane motorway 5 km from its center."


I hope he never goes to Madrid, he might get a nasty shock


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Or Amsterdam. A10 is 3 km from the city center and has six to eight, sometimes more lanes.


----------



## g.spinoza

Milan's A51 is less than 4 km from the city centre; Rome's A24 ends 4 km from Trevi Fountain and 3.3 km from the Colosseum...


----------



## LtBk

Stuu said:


> I hope he never goes to Madrid, he might get a nasty shock


Or any city in North America. Greens:Green on the outside, red on the inside.


----------



## MichiH

^^ 3km, 3.3km, 4km. It's NOT 5km :lol:


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## LtBk

I was told that the French left is more ideology driven than in most other developed countries.


----------



## [email protected]

News program about the Périphérique on the public regional channel France 3 Paris-Île-de-France.

At 00:19 in the video: "This 35 km ring located only 5 km from the city center, a unique case in the world."


----------



## ChrisZwolle

[email protected] said:


> At 00:19 in the video: "This 35 km ring located only 5 km from the city center, a unique case in the world."


Unfortunately this is the state of modern journalism. Most of it is just copying press releases and Twitter. Fact-checking is only done when it is convenient to the desired outcome of the reporting...


----------



## [email protected]

Since this news program seems older than Gaspard Gantzer's tweet (the YouTube video was posted today, but it seems the news program is from last winter, or possibly even the winter before), it looks to me like Gaspard Gantzer actually got this idea that it's a unique case in the world from the news program (or from discussing with the journalists from the news program, who are probably acquaintances of him), rather than the other way around.


----------



## parcdesprinces

[email protected] said:


> At 00:19 in the video: "This 35 km ring located only 5 km from the city center, a unique case in the *world*."


Just replace "World" by _"Europe for a city of that size"_ and you're in! 


:troll:


----------



## [email protected]

Apparently that news program is from 2017 : 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1123524838788947976


----------



## mgk920

[email protected] said:


> News program about the Périphérique on the public regional channel France 3 Paris-Île-de-France.
> 
> At 00:19 in the video: "This 35 km ring located only 5 km from the city center, a unique case in the world."


Hmmmm, I-90/94 (Kennedy Expressway) passes just seven blocks outside of the 'Loop' (three blocks from Union Station) in Chicago (2x4 through lanes).



Mike


----------



## [email protected]

Good news for a change. At the same time as the City of Paris is planning to narrow the Périphérique, the last 2-km long section of the Toulouse Périphérique that still had only 2x2 lanes is being widened. Work has finally started after years of dithering!

It was the hardest part of the Périphérique to widen, because it was constrained by hills and urbanization, and the builders in the 1970s did not plan bridges (for the streets crossing the Périphérique) long enough to enlarge the Périphérique.

112,000 vehicles use daily the section that will be widened, creating a bottleneck that is the nightmare of the Périphérique. The widening will be completed by the end of 2021. Speed limit on that section is 70 km/h during works (instead of the regular 90 km/h), which is funny considering how the Lyon Périphérique has entirely switched to 70 km/h this week (in Toulouse the only newspaper in town, La Dépêche du Midi, which is left-wing, has goaded the right-wing mayor to decrease the speed limit on the Périphérique to 70 km/h, but the mayor has refused so far; probably only a question of time before the Left-Green win the municipal elections and decrease the speed limit to 70 km/h...).



> Entre Rangueil et Lespinet, le periphérique de Toulouse passera à 2X3 voies fin 2021
> 
> La Dépêche du Midi
> 29 avril 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La sortie Demoiselles a été fermée, le temps de gagner quelques mètres sur le talus.
> 
> Commencé en début d'année, le chantier d'élargissement du périphérique sud, entre les sorties Rangueil et Lespinet, ne passe pas inaperçu. Chaque jour, 112 000 automobilistes en moyenne empruntent cette partie de la rocade qui, en extérieur, a été maintenue à deux voies mais sans bande d'arrêt d'urgence. Ces deux kilomètres Rangueil-Lespinet sont les derniers encore à 2X2 voies alors que le périphérique est partout à 2X3 voies. D'où les bouchons récurrents de ce goulet d'étrangement.
> 
> [...]
> 
> L'ensemble du chantier doit s'achever fin 2021. Pendant ces trois ans, la vitesse est réduite à 70 km/heure. Si les deux voies de circulation sont maintenues, l'absence de bande d'arrêt d'urgence peut entraîner un gros bouchon en cas de panne ou d'accident, comme cela s'est produit il y a quelques mois.
> 
> L'élargissement représente un coût de 48,50 M€, financé par l'État (30 %), Toulouse Métropole (29,10 %), la Région (21,50 %) et le Département (19,40 %). La maîtrise d'œuvre est assurée par la Direction des routes du Sud-ouest. Les travaux sont assurés par le groupement : Spie Batignoles Malet, Guintoli, Jean-Lefebvre, GTM et Spie CityNetworks.
> 
> https://www.ladepeche.fr/2019/04/29...ique-passera-a-2x3-voies-fin-2021,8172388.php


----------



## [email protected]

Since a piece of good news never comes alone, as we say in French, new junctions and exit ramps are being built on the Toulouse Périphérique.

In December 2016, a new junction (junction 13) was opened to traffic in the northern suburbs of Toulouse. An urban boulevard (accessible from the new junction and called Boulevard Urbain Nord, or BUN) was also built to link the northern section of the commune (municipality) of Toulouse north of the Périphérique (called Paléficat), that is one of the last corners in the commune of Toulouse that is not yet built up, and where a new section of the city will be built.

These already appear on Google map:










A new junction between junctions 17 and 18 was also approved by the French government in August last year, and is due to open in 2022. This junction will be completed by an urban boulevard that will link the city of Toulouse to the other last corner of its communal territory not yet built up which is located east of the Périphérique.

This territory, called Malepère, is also going to be built up, and the new junction will allow easy access to this new section of the city (6,500 new dwellings are planned).










Now (left) and tomorrow (right):




























Last but not least, a new junction between junctions 31 and 33, in the northwestern part of the Périphérique, is now proposed. No dates or official approvals yet. This new junction would allow access to a metro station of the new 3rd line of the Toulouse Métro to be built in the 2020s. A large parking lot would be built next to the metro station so that commuters park their cars there and access the city center by metro. The 3rd line of the Toulouse Métro is planed to open in 2025.

The metropolitan area of Toulouse (within unchanged borders) grew from 894,000 inhabitants at the 1990 census to 1,345,000 at the 2016 census, which is the sort of growth more often seen in the US Sunbelt. Investment in road infrastructure has unfortunately been lagging behind since the 2000s (Toulouse still relies on the solid network of freeways created in the 1990s, and traffic jams are getting worse year after year).


----------



## italystf

Do those "enviromentalists" know that a narrower ringroad would lead to more congestion and thus more air pollution?


----------



## LtBk

Why 70 km/h? Sounds like it's a arbitrary number. This will backfire one day.


----------



## Penn's Woods

mgk920 said:


> Hmmmm, I-90/94 (Kennedy Expressway) passes just seven blocks outside of the 'Loop' (three blocks from Union Station) in Chicago (2x4 through lanes).
> 
> 
> 
> Mike




I thought it was closer than seven blocks, actually. At least by Chicago block numbering, it’s probably seven blocks from State Street. (The main street running north and south, for those who don’t know Chicago...in the middle of the Loop, not the edge).

But we’re off topic....


----------



## [email protected]

Another piece of good news. The 6-lane overseas viaduct off the coast of La Réunion island is now complete. The last pier was erected in mid-March. The last section of the deck was scheduled to be installed this week. :cheers:






This massive viaduct is 5.4 km long, the deck is 27-meter wide and 30 meters above the ocean. Construction of the viaduct has used 38,000 tonnes of steel and 300,000 cubic meters of concrete. It cost 715 million euros (9% of it paid by the EU, 49% by the French State, 42% by the Réunion regional council).

The viaduct will be fully operational by the end of this year, or beginning of 2020, but due to a crazy guerilla by environmentalist groups, it has been impossible so far to complete construction of the massive 5-km dike that will prolong the viaduct, as these activists have waged dozens of legal battles to prevent the exploitation of local quarries (a bit for the same reasons that Italian activists block the high-speed line between Turin and Lyon for fear that the boring of the tunnels will release toxic particles in the air). So the viaduct cannot be used even after completion. The opponents to the long dike now say that the entire project should have been a viaduct, disregarding the fact that it would have cost vastly more. They want the regional council to cancel the dike and replace it by a viaduct, which would mean 10 more years of delay at least. 

Waiting for the dike, one solution could be to link the viaduct to the current freeway running below the cliff, so that motorists can start using the viaduct before the long dike is built. That way already half of the dangerous journey below the crumbling cliffs could be done safely on top of the viaduct. 

Such a temporary connection of the viaduct to the current freeway under the cliffs would cost 10 to 12 millions euros. It would take 2 years to complete, which means the viaduct could open to traffic in 2021 after standing unused for more than a year. 

As for the entire new freeway (viaduct plus all the dikes), it was originally scheduled to open in 2020, then 2023 after all the lawsuits filed against the dikes and quarries, and now after the opponents obtained yesterday from the judge a suspension of all work at the main quarry, nobody knows when...

The overseas viaducts and the dikes that prolong it in this low quality video (but it's the most recent one). At 5:13 in the video you can see where the dike abruptly ends for now.


----------



## g.spinoza

Mah, good news... way to ruin a paradise...


----------



## g.spinoza

Yesterday I did a road trip in the countryside around Paris and found some unusual 45 km/h speed limits. I can't find the exact spots in Google maps, but at least one of them was in Beaumont-sur-Oise and two more outside Mantes-la-Jolie. 

Are they common?


----------



## MichiH

^^ Note D route numbers for your "signature"


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've seen them too, I've driven a lot on French rural roads and from what I've seen they are quite rare. There are also some rare 25 km/h speed limits for trucks. 

The story goes that 60 km/h used to be the speed limit in city limits and 45 km/h was an intermediate step between 30 and 60 km/h. It also was a good speed for 2nd gear at that time. I'm not sure if that's the official explanation.


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> ^^ Note D route numbers for your "signature"


Uhhh, news coming up! :banana:

I am already!


----------



## Autobahn-mann

g.spinoza said:


> Yesterday I did a road trip in the countryside around Paris and found some unusual 45 km/h speed limits. […] Are they common?


When I was much younger, I've travelled in Southern France between late 90ies and early 2000, I remember some of that 45 speed limits on rural urban areas, and sometimes also in some boulevard of coastal cities on Mediterranean side.


ChrisZwolle said:


> […] The story goes that 60 km/h used to be the speed limit in city limits and 45 km/h was an intermediate step between 30 and 60 km/h. It also was a good speed for 2nd gear at that time. I'm not sure if that's the official explanation.


I seems to be an optimal explanation. Good!


----------



## Highway89

g.spinoza said:


> Yesterday I did a road trip in the countryside around Paris and found some unusual 45 km/h speed limits. I can't find the exact spots in Google maps, but at least one of them was in Beaumont-sur-Oise and two more outside Mantes-la-Jolie.
> 
> Are they common?


I remember asking the same question 2 years ago . I couldn't find any explanation, though. 



Highway89 said:


> Now that I'm watching the last stage of the Paris-Nice cycling race, I remember noticing the other day this 45 km/h speed limit sign: https://goo.gl/maps/g6Uvx5g1Rk72
> 
> I reckon that the sign must be at least 30 years old. Are such _5 km/h speed limit signs still used in France?






ChrisZwolle said:


> The story goes that 60 km/h used to be the speed limit in city limits and 45 km/h was an intermediate step between 30 and 60 km/h. It also was a good speed for 2nd gear at that time. I'm not sure if that's the official explanation.


This would explain it properly. Thanks.


----------



## General Maximus

Yesterday, heading towards the Mont Blanc...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*D924 Axe Argentan - Flers*

According to this article, a 2km section of the D924 expressway will be inaugurated on 17 May: https://www.tendanceouest.com/actua...velle-portion-de-2x2-voies-pres-de-flers.html

D924 is a new four lane expressway that will link the small city of Flers to A88 near Argentan in Western France.

It is a subsection of this 8 km section near Briouze. According to Open Street Map is is mostly a new interchange with 2 km of new carriageway built over the existing road.


----------



## [email protected]

Another piece of good news. After the massive wave of protests and strikes that took place in French Guiana in 2017, the French government has finally decided to finance the motorway from Cayenne to Kourou.

The first quarter of the motorway is budgeted and planned. 

First they need to double the massive bridge over the Cayenne River:






Instead of enlarging the current bridge (which is 1.25 km long), they will build a second bridge 40 meters downstream from the current bridge. The current 2-lane bridge will be used by the road from Kourou to Cayenne, while the new 2-lane bridge will be used by the road from Cayenne to Kourou. Experts say this is less costly than enlarging the current bridge, and it also secures access to the Kourou Space Centre (in case one bridge had a structural failure, like the current bridge which had to be closed for 3 months in 2009-2010, the other bridge could be used to keep traffic flowing between Cayenne and Kourou). 

The new bridge will be larger than the current one: 2 lanes for cars + 1 bicycle lane also used by pedestrians, and some viewing platforms for tourists. 100 million euros have been budgeted for the new bridge.

Further down the line, a 3rd bridge could be built upstream, and the oldest bridge (i.e. the current one) demolished.

The French Guianese insist on a remarkable bridge (a cable-stayed bridge like the Millau Viaduct for instance), in order to be a symbol of French Guiana, but this would increase the cost of the new bridge (a cable-stayed bridge would cost 300 million euros, instead of the 100 million budgeted by the French State).

The RN1 will then be enlarged from the Balata junction to the Carapa junction, a distance of 12 km, turning it into a 4-lane expressway.










In phase 2, which is not budgeted yet, the expressway will be extended to Tonate (21 km from the Balata junction), and then in phase 3 it will be extended to Kourou (51 km from the Balata junction). 

3 interchanges are planned between Balata and Carapa. One at La Chaumière in the commune of Matoury, on the Cayenne side of the Cayenne River, and two in the rapidly developing exurbs of Cayenne on the Kourou side of the Cayenne River (at Belle Humeur and Soula, in the commune of Macouria).










The crazy growth of Macouria on the other side of the Cayenne River from Cayenne is in fact the number one reason why this expressway + doubling of the bridge is needed. The commune of Macouria grew from 9,995 people at the 2011 census to 12,804 people at the 2016 census (that's more than 5% growth per year), and is set to continue growing at similar rates in the foreseeable future. The entire metro area of Cayenne (which includes Macouria and other exurbs) grew from 121,308 people at the 2011 census to 137,964 people at the 2016 census, i.e. +2.6% per year, the fastest growing metro area in France.

A public enquiry took place in 2018. Further studies and administrative dossier preparations are taking place this year. Declaration of public utility will take place in the 2nd half of 2020, most of the work in 2021, and the expressway should open in early 2022.

Of course, this being autophobic France, the maximum speed limit on the expressway will be 90 km/h (during the public enquiry, several people have regretted that it won't be 110 km/h). Speed cameras are already planned. :|


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## [email protected]

In the series "French political leaders hate cars", here is Bordeaux.

The central bridge of Bordeaux already had its car traffic reduced in the 2000s by reducing the number of lanes used by cars from 4 to 2 since they built the tram line over the bridge, instead of building a subway. The purpose of tram lines in France is not to facilitate urban transportation but to block cars and force people to leave their cars at home (at least that's the goal).










But this wasn't enough for the Khmers Verts (as we call them here), so last year Bordeaux' right-wing mayor, Alain Juppé, decided to close the bridge entirely to car drivers (after having already run an experiment of one year since 2017)! Alain Juppé is a former prime minister of France who, after being a hated Thatcherite in the 1990s (at some point he was so hated some voters literally ran after him in the street and he had to run faster than them to save his skin, that was recorded by some journalists), switched in the 2000s to become a left-of-the-right softy opened to "progressive" left-wing agendas and trying to appear as the wise man of French politics (this unfortunately did not work out well for him either, since the right-wing voters preferred to select a more right-wing candidate to represent them in the 2017 presidential election). He has now retired from active politics by entering the Constitutional Council (the "Supreme Court" of France), despite having no judicial experience, but this is unfortunately frequent in France (Macron selected him to enter the Constitution Council last February).

The bridge since the 2017 experiment (now permanently closed to cars since the experiment was made permanent last year):










The shop owners from the right bank of the Garonne River (opposite the historic city center on the left bank) challenged the city decree in court, and last month they won, the court repealed the decree closing the bridge. Yet just like in Paris, where the administrative court repealed the decree closing the riverside expressway and the City of Paris issued another decree to keep the expressway closed, based on ridiculous "tourist" reasons (the new decree says the riverside expressway should be closed because it repeals tourist and is in contravention with UNESCO heritage status), the City of Bordeaux has done the same and issued a 2nd decree based on other legal grounds to bypass the court decision and keep the bridge closed. That's the French notion of "rule of law" for you! :|



> Bordeaux: The city decree closing the Pont de Pierre repealed (but the bridge will nonetheless remain closed)
> 
> 20 Minutes
> April 9, 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.20minutes.fr/bordeaux/2...meture-pont-pierre-annule-restera-quand-ferme


Now the Khmers Verts are demonstrating in Toulouse and demanding that Toulouse, too, close the central historic bridge of the city, and also the Rue de Metz (central east-west Haussmannian axis of the city center). The right-wing mayor of Toulouse, who is already under pressure from the Left to reduce the speed limit from 90 to 70 km/h on the Périphérique of Toulouse, has refused to close the central bridge and the Rue de Metz, calling this idea "playing with fire" ("behaving like a sorcerer's apprentice", literally), but it's probably only a question of time before a new mayor comes and closes the bridge and the Rue de Metz... :|



> In Toulouse, they demonstrate in favor of an entirely pedestrian city center
> 
> La Dépêche du Midi
> April 10, 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ladepeche.fr/2019/04/10...etonnisation-du-centre-historique,8122430.php


I think France is a hopeless case...


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## [email protected]

The sort of tweets tweeted by the Khmers Verts. This Twitter account is called "2 feet, 2 wheels Toulouse", literally. The tweet uses the gender-neutral spelling now promoted by Left-wing activits.

Translation:
"I am a pedestrian (male/female), I want to cross Rue de Metz and Place Esquirol without having to make a detour and without waiting for an impossibly long traffic light. All of us (male/female) have a good reason to demonstrate on the 9th! #EastWestAxis #PontNeuf" (Pont Neuf is the bridge they want to close)



> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1114871951468711937


Florian Jutisz, the vice-president of "2 feet, 2 wheels Toulouse", told the media that "We still have an archaic vision of the city, yet it is time Toulouse entered the modern world."


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## Kanadzie

^^ that gender-neutral French just looks so wrong and probably sounds terrible spoken... In Canada still at least you don't hear any of it, though sometimes in a government job ad you'll see a note like 'le feminin est utilise afin d'alleger la texte"...

But Khmers Verts, haha it is so true :lol:


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## Bender

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ that gender-neutral French just looks so wrong and probably sounds terrible spoken... In Canada still at least you don't hear any of it, though sometimes in a government job ad you'll see a note like 'le feminin est utilise afin d'alleger la texte"...


It's not spoken, it's just virtue-signalling by dumb SJWs. No sane person writes like this.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> According to this article, a 2km section of the D924 expressway will be inaugurated on 17 May: https://www.tendanceouest.com/actua...velle-portion-de-2x2-voies-pres-de-flers.html
> 
> D924 is a new four lane expressway that will link the small city of Flers to A88 near Argentan in Western France.
> 
> It is a subsection of this 8 km section near Briouze. According to Open Street Map is is mostly a new interchange with 2 km of new carriageway built over the existing road.


The article reports that 4km from Landigou to Durcet were opened in 2017 (Edit: it was only 3km though according to satellite pics). I think that the section to be opened next week is the remaining eastern segment of the 5.5km section indicated to be completed by 2018 on the map. OSM confirms that 2km are u/c there.



> À l'autre bout de cet axe, ce fut d'abord Flers/Landigou, puis Landigou/Durcet sur 4 kilomètres en 2017.


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## ChrisZwolle

[email protected] said:


> The sort of tweets tweeted by the Khmers Verts. This Twitter account is called "2 feet, 2 wheels Toulouse", literally. The tweet uses the gender-neutral spelling now promoted by Left-wing activits.


The problem is that these fringe activists are well-organized on social media and have a significant presence in digital publishing.

The silent majority / regular people / status quo is not active on such platforms, which leads politicians to believe that these fringe ideas are the mainstream. It doesn't help that journalists mainly follow other journalists on Twitter, so they are in a bubble, increasingly detached from regular, boring everyday stuff that represents the normal citizens who rely on this road infrastructure. 

Major cities are increasingly radicalized on transportation matters. In the past you just built a transit line to promote that. Nowadays that isn't enough, they want to degrade the mobility of those they don't align with. There is an ever increasing political / societal gap between major urban centres and the rest of the country.


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## g.spinoza

People, in principle I agree, but I fail to see what's the real problem here. Paris, for one, is a city that basically doesn't need cars, so discouraging the use of private cars in Paris is not a bad idea.
I can't understand if you are talking about principles, here... if it is, then I'm not on board. In places where public transport is so extended and frequent, why insist on using your car?


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## [email protected]

g.spinoza said:


> Paris, for one, is a city that basically doesn't need cars


Is this a joke? What about people with reduced mobility? families who have to transport kids and sick relatives? old people who cannot walk the numerous stairs of the Métro anymore (very few escalators in the Paris Métro)? people who need to transport heavy object? people who don't want to suffer unbearable heat in the non-air-conditioned Métro in the summer? women who wish to avoid sexual harassment (a skyrocketing problem in the Paris Métro)? people who need to travel when the Métro is closed, such as night workers, cleaning ladies in the early morning, nurses, etc?



g.spinoza said:


> In places where public transport is so extended and frequent, why insist on using your car?


Paris's public transportation system perhaps looks extended and frequent from an Italian perspective, but Paris is a megacity of 12.5 million people, and its public transportation network is not extended and frequent enough for such a HUGE population, which is why the Métro and RER are already full to the max at peak hours, and cannot contain million more travelers if we suddenly banned cars!! There is simply not enough physical room. :nuts:

(the lady at the end says: "if it were animals, there would be animal protection leagues complaining, but here nobody is complaining")


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## ChrisZwolle

Millions of people in Paris (including its suburbs) have cars and use them. Proclaiming people basically don't need cars in Paris contradicts with the reality that many people actually do use them. 

Public transport is extensive in Paris yet there are millions of people still driving a car: it's faster or more flexible. Public transport is very well equipped to move large amounts of people into a central area, but traffic flows in a metropolitan area consists of innumerable small relations, between the hundreds of inner and outer suburbs, as well as the ville de Paris itself. Each of these relations is small, so difficult or impossible to adequately serve by transit, but is the reason why people choose to drive despite the congestion.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Millions of people in Paris (including its suburbs) have cars and use them. Proclaiming people basically don't need cars in Paris contradicts with the reality that many people actually do use them.


The fact that cars are used doesn't mean they are necessary. 70% of the people who use cars in a city is just lazy and not very smart. 


> Public transport is extensive in Paris yet there are millions of people still driving a car: it's faster or more flexible. Public transport is very well equipped to move large amounts of people into a central area, but traffic flows in a metropolitan area consists of innumerable small relations, between the hundreds of inner and outer suburbs, as well as the ville de Paris itself. Each of these relations is small, so difficult or impossible to adequately serve by transit, but is the reason why people choose to drive despite the congestion.


I'm not talking about people who travel from the suburbs to Paris and vice-versa. Even though there is plenty of RER lines serving the inner banlieues, not all the territory is adequately served.
I'm talking about travel within Paris. There is basically no possibility that a travel by car inside the city is faster than by public transport: maybe after 11 PM, or before 5 AM.

Look, I commute by RER every day between Porte de Gentilly (south) and Saint-Denis (north), and it's not my favourite part of the day: trains are overcrowded, people are smelly or rude. But under no circumstances would I drive for my commute: it's just a dumb idea.


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## Stuu

g.spinoza said:


> People, in principle I agree, but I fail to see what's the real problem here. Paris, for one, is a city that basically doesn't need cars, so discouraging the use of private cars in Paris is not a bad idea.
> I can't understand if you are talking about principles, here... if it is, then I'm not on board. In places where public transport is so extended and frequent, why insist on using your car?


That might be true in central Paris, but the metro barely extends past the Périphérique... where most people in Paris live. Yes, there is good transport from most places into the centre, and the majority of those journeys will be via PT. But most journeys won't be into the centre, they are suburb to suburb, which are not usually very well catered for by public transport because there are so many potential pairs of origin and destination


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## [email protected]

ChrisZwolle said:


> The problem is that these fringe activists are well-organized on social media and have a significant presence in digital publishing.


Not only that, but they also team together and work like a cult, with big congresses where they motivate the 'converts'. See pictures in these tweets from the same account.

At the Congress of the Federation of French Bicycle Users, in the Le Mans, where they show well arranged pictures of before (grey pictures) and today (color pictures) to motivate the troops. The 2nd tweet praising the closure of the central Bordeaux bridge and asking when is Toulouse's central bridge closing is in particular bad faith, since the pictures show basically the same thing, just black and white before, and in color today.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1127134759686160384

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1126854651297640449

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1126796583339745280

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1126792272404729857


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## [email protected]

g.spinoza said:


> Look, I commute by RER every day between Porte de Gentilly (south) and Saint-Denis (north), and it's not my favourite part of the day: trains are overcrowded, people are smelly or rude. But under no circumstances would I drive for my commute: it's just a dumb idea.


I would live in leafy and pleasant Montmorency (instead of drab Gentilly), and take my car to commute to St Denis (Montmorency-St Denis is quite doable by car even at peak hours; in fact I had a female cousin who commuted from Sannoy to Aulnay-sous-Bois for several years, passing by the Stade de France on the motorway, it would never have occurred to her to use public transportation, both because it's quite impractical to go from Sannois to Aulnay by suburban train/RER, and also because she's a wealthy engineer and doesn't want to face the squalor and rudeness of the RER on a daily basis, not to mention men pressing their groins against the buttocks of female passengers in the crowded trains, etc).

That's Montmorency (there are some apartments in Montmorency whose rent is affordable even for the lower middle class, cheaper than in Gentilly, it's not just rich villas; the last time I went to Montmorency I saw quite a few young black couples returning to their homes there in fact):


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## g.spinoza

Stuu said:


> That might be true in central Paris, but the metro barely extends past the Périphérique... where most people in Paris live. Yes, there is good transport from most places into the centre, and the majority of those journeys will be via PT. But most journeys won't be into the centre, they are suburb to suburb, which are not usually very well catered for by public transport because there are so many potential pairs of origin and destination


Past the Peripherique is not Paris, but the banlieue. I said "within Paris", so, "within the Periph'".


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## g.spinoza

[email protected] said:


> I would live in leafy and pleasant Montmorency (instead of drab Gentilly)


Ok, please ask all of the Cité Universitaire to move to Montmorency hno:



> , and take my car to commute to St Denis (Montmorency-St Denis is quite doable by car even at peak hours;


Yes, and park where? All parking spots I ever saw here are "payant"...



> in fact I had a female cousin who commuted from Sannoy to Aulnay-sous-Bois for several years, passing by the Stade de France on the motorway, it would never have occurred to her to use public transportation, both because it's quite impractical to go from Sannois to Aulnay by suburban train/RER, and also because she's a wealthy engineer and doesn't want to face the squalor and rudeness of the RER on a daily basis, not to mention men pressing their groins against the buttocks of female passengers in the crowded trains, etc).


Good for her! But if we all think to ourselves, like her, we will be creating the largest traffic jam ever saw.



> That's Montmorency (there are some apartments in Montmorency whose rent is affordable even for the lower middle class, cheaper than in Gentilly, it's not just rich villas; the last time I went to Montmorency I saw quite a few young black couples returning to their homes there in fact):


I bet you have apartments to let in Montmorency :cheers:


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## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ that gender-neutral French just looks so wrong and probably sounds terrible spoken... In Canada still at least you don't hear any of it, though sometimes in a government job ad you'll see a note like 'le feminin est utilise afin d'alleger la texte"...
> 
> But Khmers Verts, haha it is so true :lol:


I get the principle behind inclusive language, but I think written language should be speakable - it should be possible to read out loud. Write "instructeur ou instructrice," not "instruct-eu-r-ice." It's ridiculous. Not that anyone asked me and not that I have a right to an opinion.

Ahem. Sorry.


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## [email protected]

g.spinoza said:


> Yes, and park where? All parking spots I ever saw here are "payant"...


There's a price to pay for comfort. Monthly pass for public transportation costs money anyway. Inside the City of Paris there are lots of underground car parks (built back in the days when the city hall wasn't anti-car like today) where you can buy your own reserved parking space for a year. They have special prices for people using their reserved car space only during working hours to go to the office.

I would be surprised if they didn't have underground car parks in St Denis too (although with the Communists running the city, you never know...).

In general anyway, all these new office campuses in Seine-Saint-Denis tend to be for youngish white collars which they exploit. It's today's new proletariat. The more advanced white collars and execs work in the city proper and in La Défense, where there are tons of underground car parks.


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## [email protected]

Regarding your personal case, I don't know what's your budget, but I would seriously consider looking for an apartment to rent around Enghien/Montmorency. It's a very pleasant area, with a large lake, and a nice hill with beautiful residential areas, a Gothic church, lots of history, a huge forest nearby, and it's only a super short train ride from Enghien to St Denis train station. And from the St Denis train station it should be only a quick bus or tram ride to your office.

What's more, the trains on the Enghien line are the most modern in the Paris area, built in Canada by Bombardier (unlike the awful trains built by Alstom in France), fully air conditioned (a rarity in Paris, Alstom is unable to make AC work in its trains), and super clean. I'm always impressed (and envious) when I go to Enghien. It's part of the new rolling stock that the new right-wing president of the Paris Region has been buying since she defeated the Left in 2015.






When the Summer comes, you'll experience real hell on RER line B, the like of which you have no idea yet. Half of the RER B cars have no AC, and the other half was equipped with a badly designed AC that is now essentially broken in most cars (it's too sensitive to dust). Temperature in the RER B from June to September can easily be above 40 degrees Celsius. Some regular users have created a site to measure the temperature on RER B: https://www.bfmtv.com/societe/plus-...s-suffoquent-dans-les-transports-1495454.html

In comparison, the lucky people living on the Enghien line will enjoy fully air conditioned trains all summer long.


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## Stuu

[email protected] said:


> R... built in Canada by Bombardier (unlike the awful trains built by Alstom in France)


Off topic, but they were not built in Canada. As if anything ordered by SNCF would come from outside la métropole!


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## Penn's Woods

[email protected] said:


> ...pressure from the Left to reduce the speed limit from 90 to 70 km/h on the Périphérique of Toulouse...


The Périphérique of Toulouse? The autoroutes (A61, A 62, etc.)? They're under the city's jurisdiction?


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## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> The problem is that these fringe activists are well-organized on social media and have a significant presence in digital publishing.
> 
> The silent majority / regular people / status quo is not active on such platforms, which leads politicians to believe that these fringe ideas are the mainstream. It doesn't help that journalists mainly follow other journalists on Twitter, so they are in a bubble, increasingly detached from regular, boring everyday stuff that represents the normal citizens who rely on this road infrastructure.
> 
> Major cities are increasingly radicalized on transportation matters. In the past you just built a transit line to promote that. Nowadays that isn't enough, they want to degrade the mobility of those they don't align with. There is an ever increasing political / societal gap between major urban centres and the rest of the country.


Oh, I don't know if local politicians are that gullible. But maybe it's different in Europe.


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## Penn's Woods

[email protected] said:


> Is this a joke? What about people with reduced mobility? families who have to transport kids and sick relatives? old people who cannot walk the numerous stairs of the Métro anymore (very few escalators in the Paris Métro)? people who need to transport heavy object? people who don't want to suffer unbearable heat in the non-air-conditioned Métro in the summer? women who wish to avoid sexual harassment (a skyrocketing problem in the Paris Métro)? people who need to travel when the Métro is closed, such as night workers, cleaning ladies in the early morning, nurses, etc?...


Hear, hear! I'm a believer in cities, and chose to live in one. I believe in public transit too. I lived without a car for 13 years, reasonably happily; if I wanted to go somewhere you needed to drive, I could borrow one. And I like driving! But when my parents went away, I could borrow one of their cars, take vacation from my job, and get some road trips out of my system.

Then, in 2008, my mother broke her leg. My father was already unable to drive, due to Parkinson's. So I had to spend every weekend and holiday for a few months at their house, doing their shopping, their laundry... everything that they needed done off of the ground floor of their house. The ONLY way to manage that was to bring my Dad's car to Philadelphia between visits, move it every two hours to keep it legally parked.... After a few months, and once my Mom could drive again, I bought the car.

Now my dad's gone, but my mother's fairly immobile again. She wouldn't have been able to live on her own over the last few months if I didn't have that car. (All of this would be prohibitively expensive through a car-sharing service like Zipcar, which I did belong to for a while around 2008.) And I like having it for things that have nothing to do with her. Roadtrips, heavy shopping.... When I'm in the city, I can do everything on foot, or by transit, and not drive an inch for days at a stretch. But it's good to have the car.

Given my situation, I'm not going to be so hypocritical as to tell city people they don't need or shouldn't have cars. (Discouraging people from driving in, or into, the city is a different matter. But gently. By providing good alternatives, not by treating them as if they're doing something wrong.)


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## Penn's Woods

[email protected] said:


> ...I would be surprised if they didn't have underground car parks in St Denis too (although with the Communists running the city, you never know...)...


In Philadelphia, Saint-Denis is mostly known as the city that saw fit to name a street after a Philadelphia cop-killer. :bash:
I'll never set foot there.


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## [email protected]

Penn's Woods said:


> The Périphérique of Toulouse? The autoroutes (A61, A 62, etc.)? They're under the city's jurisdiction?


No, under the prefect's authority, but these days the French State is so weak that whatever the mayors wish, the prefect obeys. That's how it worked in Lyon and Lille when they decreased the speed limit from 90 to 70 km/h. The mayors had no authority over these motorways, but the prefect obeyed. Same when they decreased the speed limit from 110 to 90 km/h on the Toulouse Périphérique in 2007.

In fact the French State is now openly pushing to reduce the speed limit, which has forced the mayor of Toulouse to publish a declaration last Wednesday to say he is opposed to reducing the speed limit to 70 km/h (the prefect is about to publish a report regarding a decrease of the speed limit on the Toulouse Périphérique, and the mayor wanted to pre-empt the debate).

Translation of the Mayor of Toulouse's tweet: "To relieve congestion on the Périphérique [he still uses the old term "rocade", which was used until the 2000s, but like many older Toulouse people he keeps using it; "rocade" is more like the bypass of a small town, and it's not a complete loop unlike a périphérique] and decrease pollution I very much doubt the effectiveness of a one-shot measure like reducing the speed limit. The priority effort must remain the development of the public transport offer & the implementation of new road infrastructures."



> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1126410568544468992


This guy is a rarity among French mayors of large cities. In fact he defeated the Socialist mayor of Toulouse (who in a coalition with the Greens had stopped all subway projects and instead built tram lines to decrease the number of lanes used by cars on the avenues of Toulouse, and who had also made fully pedestrian the largest north-south axis crossing the city center*) only by a slim margin in the 2014 election. Toulouse always votes in a large majority for the Left in national elections (Toulouse is as Leftist as Texas is Republican), but it has oddly often elected moderate right-wing mayors. It's far from certain that Moudenc will win the municipal election next year. If the former Socialist mayor wins the election, it's almost certain the speed limit will be decreased (probably before the end of 2020).

The problem is the inhabitants of the suburbs cannot vote for the mayor, because French cities have never been merged with their suburbs unlike in most other European countries. This problem is somehow mitigated in Toulouse because due to local Medieval laws, the walled City of Toulouse exerted authority over a very large territory, and so when the French communes were created in 1790 the commune of Toulouse was given the old Medieval territory over which it had authority, i.e. 118 km², which is very large for French communes, and which means some of the suburbs of Toulouse are in fact within the limits of the commune, and its residents can therefore vote for the mayor. That's the only reason why the current mayor was able to defeat the Green-Socialist coalition. If the municipal territory had been as small as in Lyon or Lille, the Green-Socialist coalition would still be in power, since the bobos of the central areas vote for the Left, for tram lines, for closing roads to cars, etc, whereas the inhabitants of the suburbs are more concerned with car issues and vote more for right-wing candidates.

*The moderate center-right mayor of Toulouse in the 1970s had already made the Medieval north-south axis of the city center pedestrian in the 1970s, but kept the large Haussmannian north-south axis built in the 1870s open to car traffic, a bit the same way Rue St Denis in Paris is pedestrian whereas Boulevard de Sebastopol is (still) opened to car traffic (although with much reduced lanes since the Greens-Socialists came to power in 2001). This large axis (Rue d'Alsace-Lorraine) was made entirely pedestrian in the end of 2008 by the new Socialist mayor. His right-wing predecessor (who is again mayor of Toulouse since 2014) had been under big pressure from Green activists to close it, and now the same activists are pressuring the mayor to close the east-west Haussmannian axis (Rue de Metz).

The rest of the mayor's declaration:


> As the experiments launched by the metropolitan authorities of Lille, Rennes and Paris do not allow, at this stage, to conclude that any of the expected benefits in terms of reducing noise or air pollution really exist, I am not in favor, at least at this stage, of reducing the speed from 90 to 70 or 80km/h on the Périphérique of Toulouse.
> 
> While after a year of experiment, finally not conclusive, Rennes has chosen to restore the 90km/h speed limit on its ring road, let's wait and see the results obtained after the experiments in progress in Lille and Paris before taking a measure that would strongly and unnecessarily constrain the people of Toulouse.


I think he meant Lyon and not Paris.


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## ChrisZwolle

They have trialled a reduction from 120 to 80 km/h in the Netherlands on the A58 motorway in 2009/2010. 

The actual reduction of PM10 levels was only 0.6 µg/m³ (the limit is 40.0), which is so tiny that it would be difficult to distinguish from regular hour-to-hour variations. 

Episodes of poor air quality isn't caused by day to day traffic, but due to meteorology. Emissions from traffic are fairly even throughout the year, but poor air quality is caused by stagnant air / inversion, which traps pollutants. Major cities also tend to be located in valleys which exacerbate this effect.


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## [email protected]

One last note about governance, since this is crucial in terms of the culture wars being waged in the large French cities: the creation of the metropolitan authorities in 2015 (which are not the same thing as the "metropolitan cities" in Italy; the French metropolitan authorities are much smaller and resemble more German or Dutch municipalities) was supposed to solve the issue of inappropriate governance of the large French cities, since the presidents of the metropolitan authorities would, from the 2020 municipal elections onward, be directly elected by the citizens, and so the mayor of the central commune would more or less become like the Lord-Mayor of the City of London, but the first thing Macron did when he came to power is cave in to pressure from the French Senate (home of the local barons who are the true power in France) and cancel the direct election of the presidents of the metropolitan authorities. So, as before, it is only the mayors who will select the president of the metropolitan authorities. And therefore it is the election of the mayor of the central commune that will still matter the most, and in that central commune the Leftist and Green bobos are the majority (with very few exceptions when the central commune has a very large territory as is the case for Toulouse and Marseille).

Some data:
- Lille: commune 35 km² / metropolitan authority 648 km² (a bit smaller than Hamburg)
- Bordeaux: commune 49 km² / metropolitan authority 579 km²
- Toulouse: commune 118 km² / metropolitan authority 466 km² (the southern suburbs have refused to enter the metropolitan authority, and François Hollande gave up on forcing them to enter it)

The only exception is Lyon: the direct election of the president of the Lyon Metropolis has been kept (Macron could not cancel it because the Lyon Metropolis is legally a territorial collectivity on the same legal footing as the départements). So the inhabitants of the suburbs of Lyon will elect directly the president of the Lyon Metropolis next year for the first time ever.

- Lyon: commune 48 km² / metropolitan authority 534 km²

Interestingly, when the status of the Lyon Metropolis was voted in the French Parliament in 2014, the mayor of the commune of Lyon was also the president of the Lyon Metropolis. He was in favor of this new status, and he thought he would remain president of the Lyon Metropolis (due to his popularity in Greater Lyon at the time), so the direct election was a non-issue. Since then, however, he decided to support Macron in the 2017 presidential campaign, Macron unexpectedly won, the mayor of Lyon then became Minister of the Interior and had to quit his office of mayor of Lyon and president of the Lyon Metropolis (this has become mandatory since the 2010s whenever a local baron enters the government). Last year this guy (Gérard Collomb) publicly fell out with Macron and decided to quit his job of Minister of the Interior (the first time a minister resigns when the president asked him to stay) and return to Lyon. 

The way French politics work, his replacement as Mayor of Lyon, who is one of his creatures, agreed to resign as Mayor of Lyon so the municipal council could elect Gérard Collomb as Mayor of Lyon again (Collomb used a loophole in the French law: local mayors, presidents of metropolitan authorities, presidents of department and regional councils must quit their posts when they enter the government, but they can remain local councilors, which means they can be elected again as the top executive by the council when they leave the government, and indeed Collomb had remained municipal councilor of Lyon), but the guy who replaced Collomb as president of the Lyon Metropolis, and who for years had been the heir of Collomb, refused to resign so Collomb could become president of the Lyon Metropolis again.

Since then, there's war between these two guys. The president of the Lyon Metropolis only this week criticized the decrease of the speed limit on the Périphérique of Lyon (from 90 to 70 km/h), which was a project initiated by Collomb, by saying he was in favor of keeping the 70 km/h speed limit only during the day, and restoring 90 km/h at night.

Now both men will be candidate in the metropolitan elections next year, so if Collomb is defeated and his current replacement as president of the Lyon Metropolis wins the metropolitan elections, perhaps they will restore 90 km/h at night.

Unfortunately, no metropolitan elections anywhere else in France thanks to Macron, so it is the bobos inhabiting the tiny central commune who will keep dictating their agendas to the wider metropolitan areas... :bash:


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^When the mayors of the municipalities within a metropolitan authority elect the head of the whole thing, does each mayor get one vote or are they weighted according to the population of their municipality?


----------



## g.spinoza

[email protected] said:


> Regarding your personal case, I don't know what's your budget, but I would seriously consider looking for an apartment to rent around Enghien/Montmorency. It's a very pleasant area, with a large lake, and a nice hill with beautiful residential areas, a Gothic church, lots of history, a huge forest nearby, and it's only a super short train ride from Enghien to St Denis train station. And from the St Denis train station it should be only a quick bus or tram ride to your office.
> 
> What's more, the trains on the Enghien line are the most modern in the Paris area, built in Canada by Bombardier (unlike the awful trains built by Alstom in France), fully air conditioned (a rarity in Paris, Alstom is unable to make AC work in its trains), and super clean. I'm always impressed (and envious) when I go to Enghien. It's part of the new rolling stock that the new right-wing president of the Paris Region has been buying since she defeated the Left in 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the Summer comes, you'll experience real hell on RER line B, the like of which you have no idea yet. Half of the RER B cars have no AC, and the other half was equipped with a badly designed AC that is now essentially broken in most cars (it's too sensitive to dust). Temperature in the RER B from June to September can easily be above 40 degrees Celsius. Some regular users have created a site to measure the temperature on RER B: https://www.bfmtv.com/societe/plus-...s-suffoquent-dans-les-transports-1495454.html
> 
> In comparison, the lucky people living on the Enghien line will enjoy fully air conditioned trains all summer long.


I have none of these problems, my Research Mobility Grant expires at the end of May and I will be back to Italy


----------



## g.spinoza

[email protected] said:


> Is this a joke? What about people with reduced mobility? families who have to transport kids and sick relatives? old people who cannot walk the numerous stairs of the Métro anymore (very few escalators in the Paris Métro)? people who need to transport heavy object? people who don't want to suffer unbearable heat in the non-air-conditioned Métro in the summer? people who need to travel when the Métro is closed, such as night workers, cleaning ladies in the early morning, nurses, etc?


Yes, and how many people would that be? 10%?



> women who wish to avoid sexual harassment (a skyrocketing problem in the Paris Métro)?


I'm sorry, but thinking that the solution to harassment in metro is going by car is wrong, ignorant and laughable.




> Paris's public transportation system perhaps looks extended and frequent from an Italian perspective, but Paris is a megacity of 12.5 million people, and its public transportation network is not extended and frequent enough for such a HUGE population, which is why the Métro and RER are already full to the max at peak hours, and cannot contain million more travelers if we suddenly banned cars!! There is simply not enough physical room. :nuts:
> 
> (the lady at the end says: "if it were animals, there would be animal protection leagues complaining, but here nobody is complaining")


This happens only at peak ours. I use RER and metro all the time, and this situation is not the norm.


----------



## [email protected]

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^When the mayors of the municipalities within a metropolitan authority elect the head of the whole thing, does each mayor get one vote or are they weighted according to the population of their municipality?


In fact it's more complicated than that. Each commune sends a number of metropolitan councilors to the metropolitan council that is proportionate to the size of its population. Those metropolitan councils tend to be very large (more than 100 councilors).

People don't vote directly for the metropolitan council. They vote for their municipal council, and on the lists for the municipal council, some tentative municipal councilors are also indicated as tentative metropolitan councilors.

So for example, in the commune of Balma (suburb of Toulouse), you have a Socialist list of municipal councilors, a Right-wing list, a Green list, etc. Each list has, say, 30 tentative councilors. If the Socialists get 30% of the votes, then 9 Socialist councilors will enter the municipal council of Balma. On the list of 30 tentative municipal councilors of each party, some of them, say 10, are indicated as being also tentative metropolitan councilors. So for example, out of the 9 municipal Socialist councilors, perhaps 3 are also going to be metropolitan councilors and enter both the municipal and metropolitan councils.

The 100+ metropolitan councilors then get to elect the president of the metropolis.

The flaw with this system is a- there is no metropolitan election, and no metropolitan debate. We saw it in 2014 (first time this system was used). The election remains municipal, and the debates remain municipal (the debates in Balma will be municipal debates about very local matters, the candidates do not discuss wider metropolitan issues). And b- the mayors, who are at the head of the largest number of metropolitan councilors from each commune (the list that ends up #1 in a given commune gets more councilors than the percentage of votes for that list, in order to have a frank majority in each municipal council) essentially command authority over the metropolitan councilors of their commune, so they are the ones choosing the president of the metropolis (even though, strictly speaking, it's the metropolitan councilors who vote).

And c- the mayors are used to run the metropolitan authorities in a non-partisan, transactional way since the beginning (because the metropolitan authorities have never been the place of partisan elections and competition that results from direct elections). You want this, I give you this, but in exchange you give me this, Left or Right, that's how it works. Since the mayor of the central commune has the most fame, the most money, and the most metropolitan councilors, he's usually chosen to be president of the metropolitan council by the other mayors, who need some goodies and money from the metropolitan authority.

So at the end of the day, it's really the voters from the central commune who get to choose the president of the metropolis, since their mayor is almost always the president of the metropolis, and the other mayors do not dare challenge him/her, and try to please him/her in order to get things in return.

In the worst scenarios, when the mayor of the central commune doesn't have a majority in the metropolitan council, he/she manages a "combinazione" with some non-political mayors from the suburbs. For example in Lille, the hard-left mayor of the commune of Lille didn't have a majority at the metropolitan council last time, normally it should have been a right-wing mayor who should have become president of the Lille Metropolis, but she managed to sign a deal with some non-political mayors from dozens of small exurban communes, she had one of these completely unknown mayors elected as president of the metropolis, and he's now his man there. After some time, he sort of rebelled against her, but as you can see with the decrease of the speed limit on the Lille motorway, a project championed by the mayor of Lille, she managed to get him on board for this project (without the agreement of the president of the Lille Metropolis, it's unlikely the prefect would have decreased the speed limit).

So even though Ms Aubry, mayor of Lille, didn't have a majority in the metropolitan authority, she nonetheless managed to take control of it by way of proxy, thanks to the non-political mayors. 

A direct election of the metropolitan authorities would end all of this. The metropolitan authorities would become a partisan arena just like any other political assembly, with clear options between Left and Right for voters, and choices that matter and are clear to voters. The mayors would also lose their "combinazione" powers, and much of their municipal powers too (in exchange for their support, currently the presidents of the metropolitan authorities tend to let them use more power at the municipal level than they should). The metropolitan authority would also become much more visible for grass-root people, at the expense of the communes whose visibility and aura would fade.

Now you know why the mayors bitterly opposed the direct election of the metropolitan councils. François Hollande resisted their pressure, but Macron caved in. The problem with Macron is he had zero political experience, particularly local political experience, so all the things I'm explaining here are like Hebrew to him. François Hollande, for all his flaws, had tons of local political experience, and he knew all about the bad faith and "combinazione" of the local politicians.


----------



## [email protected]

In the series "not a day goes by in France without the anti-automobile lobby striking a new blow"... here comes the Communist mayor of Montreuil, an eastern inner suburb of Paris. This guy joined the French Communist Party when he was a philosophy student at the University of Toulouse in 1997.

Here's the tweet by his Green Party deputy mayor in charge of transports boasting triumphantly about the mayor's new decree.

Translation: "History day. I've signed a municipal decree to close a MOTORWAY. The A186 in Montreuil. Not a temporary closure but a definitive one! At last we are going to stitch the urban fabric again, and connect the city to neighboring cities with virtuous mobilities at 30 km/h. Stop pollution. #T1 (tram line) #bicyles #pedestrians #ZFE (low emission zone)"

"Mobilities" is the new way to call transports, in the political lingo of France. Here it's some "virtuous" (sic!) mobilities.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1126913222781677570


----------



## LtBk

Do you think there will be a big backlash against the anti-speed policies of the far left? I think burying the motorways like in Madrid and Boston and introducing variable speeds would be better, but Green politicians aren't reasonable people.


----------



## g.spinoza

[email protected] said:


> In the series "not a day goes by in France without the anti-automobile lobby striking a new blow"... here comes the Communist mayor of Montreuil, an eastern inner suburb of Paris. This guy joined the French Communist Party when he was a philosophy student at the University of Toulouse in 1997.
> 
> Here's the tweet by his Green Party deputy mayor in charge of transports boasting triumphantly about the mayor's new decree.
> 
> Translation: "History day. I've signed a municipal decree to close a MOTORWAY. The A186 in Montreuil. Not a temporary closure but a definitive one! At last we are going to stitch the urban fabric again, and connect the city to neighboring cities with virtuous mobilities at 30 km/h. Stop pollution. #T1 (tram line) #bicyles #pedestrians #ZFE (low emission zone)"
> 
> "Mobilities" is the new way to call transports, in the political lingo of France. Here it's some "virtuous" (sic!) mobilities.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1126913222781677570


If I translate correctly, he doesn't give a date for the closure but he says that closure will be in force "when the signals will be put in place", is this correct?


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## MichiH

^^ How can a mayor enact to close a state motorway?


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## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> ^^ How can a mayor enact to close a state motorway?


It is not a state motorway

https://routes.fandom.com/wiki/Autoroute_française_A186_(Ancien_numéro)

Actually it is a route departementale.


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## ChrisZwolle

It's an example of what happens when you transfer national infrastructure to lower governments. 

A186 is more like a long exit than a true motorway though. I guess those residents will be very happy with increased traffic in their streets.


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## g.spinoza

I will try to clinch it before it gets closed...


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## MichiH

I couldn't find any "A186" on signs. It's indicated to be a former autoroute. And yes, the mayor really has issues with the road which should be fixed: https://www.google.com/maps/@48.874...7LVkI8g_fYYLA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i36


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## General Maximus

I'm getting better in capturing images in time when I see something nice, interesting or out of the ordinary...


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## ChrisZwolle

There is a campsite behind that soundwall on the right. I checked it out, but it was noisy due to the proximity to A40 and it looked very 1980s (dilapidated). I went to the other campsite in that area. 

The truck noise at night is quite noticeable, it travels very far in the valley due to the absence of other noise sources. There is also a railroad but there isn't much traffic on it (no freight trains as far as I know).


----------



## Penn's Woods

[email protected] said:


> In the series "not a day goes by in France without the anti-automobile lobby striking a new blow"... here comes the Communist mayor of Montreuil, an eastern inner suburb of Paris. This guy joined the French Communist Party when he was a philosophy student at the University of Toulouse in 1997.
> 
> Here's the tweet by his Green Party deputy mayor in charge of transports boasting triumphantly about the mayor's new decree.
> 
> Translation: "History day. I've signed a municipal decree to close a MOTORWAY. The A186 in Montreuil. Not a temporary closure but a definitive one! At last we are going to stitch the urban fabric again, and connect the city to neighboring cities with virtuous mobilities at 30 km/h. Stop pollution. #T1 (tram line) #bicyles #pedestrians #ZFE (low emission zone)"
> 
> "Mobilities" is the new way to call transports, in the political lingo of France. Here it's some "virtuous" (sic!) mobilities.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1126913222781677570


the OTHER French city with a Rue Mumia abu-Jamal.... :bash:


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's an example of what happens when you transfer national infrastructure to lower governments.
> 
> A186 is more like a long exit than a true motorway though. I guess those residents will be very happy with increased traffic in their streets.


It was Sarkozy that did that (when he was Interior minister), if I'm not mistaken.
Just pointing it out.


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## General Maximus

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is a campsite behind that soundwall on the right. I checked it out, but it was noisy due to the proximity to A40 and it looked very 1980s (dilapidated). I went to the other campsite in that area.
> 
> The truck noise at night is quite noticeable, it travels very far in the valley due to the absence of other noise sources. There is also a railroad but there isn't much traffic on it (no freight trains as far as I know).


I'm parked now for the night on the A4 in Italy after Carisio. I'm quite a distance away from the motorway at this service area, but I think the high speed railway line behind me is going to wake me up from time to time...


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## [email protected]

MichiH said:


> And yes, the mayor really has issues with the road which should be fixed


Actually it was cleaned last November, and some barriers installed to prevent illegal trash dumping.



> Montreuil: a device against illegal trash dumping on the A186
> 
> Le Parisien
> November 11, 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In order to fight against trash duming, barriers have been installed during the weekend and a section of the motorway has been cleaned.
> 
> http://www.leparisien.fr/seine-sain...ts-sauvages-sur-l-a186-11-11-2018-7940238.php


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## Kanadzie

LtBk said:


> Do you think there will be a big backlash against the anti-speed policies of the far left? I think burying the motorways like in Madrid and Boston and introducing variable speeds would be better, but Green politicians aren't reasonable people.


they already have the "gilets jaunes" ranting about...


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## [email protected]

^^Yeah, but they don't seem to care. It's as if the Gilets Jaunes movement had never happened. More anti-automobile measures planned everywhere.


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## g.spinoza

General Maximus said:


> I'm parked now for the night on the A4 in Italy after Carisio. I'm quite a distance away from the motorway at this service area, but I think the high speed railway line behind me is going to wake me up from time to time...


I don't think high speed trains run at nights.


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## General Maximus

No, it didn't, thank God. I'm now parked up on the A13 between Bologna and Padova...


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## [email protected]

The experiment of subcontracting speed controls to private companies embarking speed cameras on board private unidentified cars driven by young workers with little experience (instead of having speed cameras on board State-owned unidentified cars driven by gendarmes) that has taken place in Normandy since last year is a failure (low rate of speed fines compared to what the private company charges the French State), so you'd think that this failure plus the Gilets Jaunes anger would be enough to kill the idea. Well no, you'd be wrong. 

The "road security" lobby is so strong, that the Minister of the Interior has decided to introduce the experiment in 3 new regions, Brittany, Pays de la Loire, Centre-Vale of the Loire, without any discussion in Parliament of course (road security measures are never discussed in Parliament, they are decided discretionarily by the government). 

See article here: https://auto.bfmtv.com/actualite/le...ent-dans-trois-nouvelles-regions-1689488.html

And the madness continues... Automatic speed limitation systems installed in new cars is seriously considered (you won't be able to increase the speed above 80 on non expressway roads for instance). I wonder whether a black market of non-limitated cars will emerge...

The road security lobby is also in favor of a system of cameras that would read your license plate at the entrance of a motorway, and at the exit, to calculate your average speed along the entire traject. With future technologies, it's possible they will monitor all of your car from a distance. This society is becoming more and more like a dystopian Big Brother world...


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## Suburbanist

[email protected] said:


> The road security lobby is also in favor of a system of cameras that would read your license plate at the entrance of a motorway, and at the exit, to calculate your average speed along the entire traject. With future technologies, it's possible they will monitor all of your car from a distance. This society is becoming more and more like a dystopian Big Brother world...


 Italy and the Netherlands have quite widespread section control systems. I prefer them to point specific speed controls on design-compliant sectors.


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## ChrisZwolle

It seems like there is a chance that some 80 km/h sections of rural roads will be reverted back to 90 km/h if it is safe to do so.

>> https://www.radars-auto.com/actualite/actu-radars-general/le-80-km-h-partout-c-est-fini-1547


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## Penn's Woods

MichiH said:


> I think that they usually count! Here's a nice ranking including a definition:
> https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/ST.INT.ARVL/rankings




So it’s like comparing apples and oranges, as we say....


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## MichiH

^^ exactly. And it's comparing apples and pears in German :lol:


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## g.spinoza

I just received - at my home address in Italy - the first of the speeding tickets I got in France by speed cameras. 
The saddest thing? When I was there I did my math and realized I should have three tickets - one in Fontainebleau, one in Reims, and the third near Geneva. Well, the one I just got is none of them  ... I was caught doing 106 (adjusted to 100) in a 90 zone at the echangeur between N184 and A115 in Méry-sur-Oise.


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## Sentilj

and the price for speeding is..?


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## g.spinoza

Sentilj said:


> and the price for speeding is..?


I don't have it here so I go by memory, 45 € if you pay within one month or so, 65ish after that, 180 if you pay after some months.


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## CNGL

I've never got a speeding ticket in France, mainly because I haven't driven much there (The only time I've ever got beyond the border was crossing the Somport tunnel then doubling back over the pass). There was that one time I thought I was caught doing about 100 in a 80 zone (in Spain, obviously), as I didn't realize there was a speed trap until it was too late. Now I believe there was no camera that day, as I've never got a speeding ticket.


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## General Maximus

Difficult to get a speeding ticket when you never drive there. Only Snowdog could probably manage it...


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## ChrisZwolle

A speeding fine in France is € 68* for any offence up to 20 km/h over the speed limit. So the same fine applies whether you drive 93 or 109 in a 90 zone. 

* € 45 (if paid within 15 days)


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## MichiH

^^ I got several tickets in France and you get the reduced payment when paying within 42 days (6 weeks). My last one was for 5x instead of 50km/h on an RN route within build-up area and it was about 45 €. The amount was similar in 70/1xx zones out of town. You can easily pay online with credit card.


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## [email protected]

Sentilj said:


> and the price for speeding is..?


Kerguelen Islands' penitentiary, 5 years.


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## Kanadzie

It's so crazy. I can't imagine getting a ticket less than 20 over limit. Like I see police ahead and slow down but still 20 more than limit to pass by :lol:
What a horrible way to live having to always keep one eye on the needle... here it is bad enough. What if you have only one eye to start with, like Dayan?


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## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> It's so crazy. I can't imagine getting a ticket less than 20 over limit. Like I see police ahead and slow down but still 20 more than limit to pass by :lol:
> What a horrible way to live having to always keep one eye on the needle... here it is bad enough. What if you have only one eye to start with, like Dayan?




My last (in fact only) speeding ticket was doing 40-odd MPH in a 30 past a speed camera (which were very rare in the U.S. at that point) on a six-lane state highway through a residential area in Maryland just outside D.C. On Inauguration Day 2009. I routinely pass cops at 10 miles above the limit. Someone nearby will be faster.


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## g.spinoza

Kanadzie said:


> . What if you have only one eye to start with, like Dayan?


I don't think you should drive in the first place..


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## VITORIA MAN

ChrisZwolle said:


> A speeding fine in France is € 68* for any offence up to 20 km/h over the speed limit. So the same fine applies whether you drive 93 or 109 in a 90 zone.
> 
> * € 45 (if paid within 15 days)


much Cheaper than in spain


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## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> france is number one because of Paris, not the Alps.


:shifty:


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## [email protected]

^^The guy confuses lots of things...

Every year there is the same confusion and I have to explain to people the real data, and every year the same confusion comes back. Sigh...

The guy confuses domestic tourism and international tourism, as well as tourists staying in the tiny City of Paris and tourists staying in the Paris Region.

The "16 million" figure for Paris to start with. This is a bogus figure published every year by Euromonitor in their Top 100 City Destinations Ranking. These guys count only the non-French-residents who sleep in hotels inside the 87 km² of the City of Paris, and then they guesstimate the number of non-French-residents who stay inside those 87 km² outside of hotels (in Airbnb, with friends, etc). If you stay in a hotel just outside the Périphérique, or at La Défense, you're not counted! That's how Paris is only #6 in the world according to them. :lol:

And it used to be worse! They used to count only the non-French-residents staying only in hotels inside the City of Paris (9 million), and therefore Paris was only #12 in their ranking! :laugh:

I had to write to them in 2014 to explain how ridiculous this figure was. The lady who single-handedly compiles this very used ranking agreed that it wasn't right. She was ok to add tourists staying outside of hotels (which is what London, Bangkok, etc do), and she said she would use a 60% ratio (60% of non-French-residents assumed to stay in hotels, 40% outside of hotels), because the City of Paris used a 54% ratio for international + domestic tourists, and she supposed that international tourists were more likely to stay in hotels than domestic tourists. A super scientific method as you can see! :lol:

And so the Paris figure magically jumped from 8.7 million in 2013 to 14.5 million in 2014, and Paris went from #12 to #6. I'm still waiting for a paycheck from the City of Paris. 

The lady, however, refused to include the tourists staying outside of the administrative limits of the tiny City of Paris. So if you stay at La Défense, or on the wrong side of the Périphérique, you're not counted! London, Bangkok, etc count tourists staying in super large territories (1,572 km² for London, 1,285 km² for Rome), but for Paris only the tourists staying in 87 km² get counted!!

So, that's for this apple and oranges list.

In reality if we count the international tourists (non-French-residents) staying both inside the city proper and in the suburbs, in hotels and outside of hotels, there are somewhere around 25 million of them, and Paris would be #1 in the Euromonitor list.

As for the 30 million figure highlighted by the guy in the video, it's not the 16 million tourists of Paris (Euromonitor) + 15 million tourists visiting Disneyland Paris. :crazy: In reality tourists are counted at the place where they stay, not at the monuments/sites they visit. Many of the tourists visiting Disneyland Paris sleep inside the City of Paris and are counted among the 16 million. The 30 million figure is different: it's the number of international + domestic tourists who sleep inside the City of Paris in hotels as well as outside of hotels, as estimated by the City of Paris authorities. I suppose the 6 million figure for Lyon is the same (in other words, lots of domestic tourists among them), but I don't know whether the Lyon authorities count the tourists staying only inside the City of Lyon (a tiny 48 km²) or also include the tourists staying in the "suburbs" (which would be part of the central city anywhere else in Europe and not called "suburbs", such as Villeurbanne which is a 19th century central Haussmannian area).

In 2014, based on the data we had, I estimated that the number of international tourists staying in the Paris Region was 26.5 million (vs 15.5 million for Greater London, a smaller territory, but even if you include the counties around Greater London you'll find less than 20 million). The number of international + domestic tourists staying in the Paris Region was somewhere above 50 million. And it is possible that these figures greatly underestimate the number of tourists staying outside of hotels (France, unlike the UK, does not count tourists at (sea/air)ports of arrival or at train stations, so we have no idea really how many tourists stay outside of hotels). The only rather accurate figures are the number of tourists who stay at hotels and camping grounds.

Tutto chiaro?


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Anyway I was trolling a bit :tongue3:


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## [email protected]

Yes, but it's good to correct these errors whenever they appear. There is enough fake news around these days.


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## Penn's Woods

*[F] France | road infrastructure • autoroutes de France*

Please delete.


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## General Maximus

*Lille*

This has been posted in the Belgium thread:



ChrisZwolle said:


> E403 (Brugge - Tournai) had a missing section at the regional border. It appears it has been a missing link for about 15 years or even longer.
> 
> The Aalbeke - Dottignies section did not open until 1998, however satellite imagery as far back as 1984 shows it almost complete with only a tiny unbuilt section of 1 km at the Walloon side of the regional border.


But heavy goods traffic coming from Paris are banned from taking the shorter and faster A22 route through Lille, and are required to take the route with the missing link as described by Chris. Signs on the A1, right before the A1-A22-A25 intersection are warning truckers to follow signs for Gent via the Tournai route. In three different languages: French, English and Dutch. Whoever said the French are not good with other languages. :lol:
Pictures taken this morning:


































Once on the A25, Gand (Gent) is still widely signposted, but without signs that indicate a truck ban, and I think the ban is widely ignored anyway. I always go through Lille in my van, it's shorter and quicker. Both routes come together at Kortrijk in Belgium again. 
Coming from the other way, at Kortrijk, signs indicate that for Paris, the route to take is via Tournai (no missing link in that direction) , and for Lille just to stay on the E17 that turns into the A22 in France. Most traffic will use A22 when going to Paris, and no signs in Belgium indicate that there is a truck ban for transit traffic through Lille.


----------



## General Maximus

Not just Paris and France but the whole of Europe.


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ Why didn't you buy/drive real/true [British] vans, you guys? 


:colbert:











*#Defender*Forever 

(I mean, not the version/model above, but for example the one -vintage too- I had the chance to drive numerous times all around France (before its death  (= RIP my family's Defender )), was OK* regarding the tunnels, including the A86 one... 

(*thanks to its removable hardtop)


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ probably because it is burning 18 litres per 100 km :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

50 km/h on A7 in Lyon. A street speed limit on a six lane motorway. They have literally lost their sanity there.. :nuts:


----------



## parcdesprinces

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ probably because it is burning *18 litres per 100 km* :lol:


LOL, not that much, but I admit you have a point though.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> 50 km/h on A7 in Lyon. A street speed limit on a six lane motorway. They have literally lost their sanity there.. :nuts:


Weren't they going to downgrade it to an arterial road with traffic lights?


----------



## RipleyLV

ChrisZwolle said:


> 50 km/h on A7 in Lyon. A street speed limit on a six lane motorway. They have literally lost their sanity there.. :nuts:
> 
> https://www.radars-auto.com/images/pour-blog/radar-a7-mulatiere-996.jpg


Isn't that because there ir an end-sign to a motorroad? 

BTW, what's up with the barrier?


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I think that is an exit ramp to cross-street


----------



## RipleyLV

Looking at GSV (September, 2018) there is a motorway-end sign on the right side before the exit here: https://goo.gl/maps/XxyPkuzteWMfPWES6

Never liked French signs.


----------



## sponge_bob

Are France restricting speeds, like Germany is, during the 40c plus heatwave?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think they do that due to pavement conditions, there is hardly any concrete remaining in France (at least on the motorway system).

But they might reduce the speed limit during poor air quality. Hot weather often results in poor air quality, especially ozone levels.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N70 RCEA*

A tiny section of the N70 'RCEA' _voie express_ upgrade opened to traffic today in Central France. It's a 1 kilometer segment through the Palinges interchange.

>> http://www.creusot-infos.com/news/s...-voies-entre-montceau-et-paray-le-monial.html


----------



## nanar

ChrisZwolle said:


> I don't think they do that due to pavement conditions, there is hardly any concrete remaining in France (at least on the motorway system).
> 
> But they might reduce the speed limit during poor air quality. Hot weather often results in poor air quality, especially ozone levels.


This (post 4505) is no more an highway/motorway and will be converted to urban boulevard before few years.
The bridge will be destroyed, the underpass some hundred meters further will be filled up, https://www.google.fr/maps/@45.7305...4!1sygKaZAYvLUvgV3X8pOZZyg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 and the whole route put at ground level .


----------



## MrAkumana

nanar said:


> This (post 4505) is no more an highway/motorway and will be converted to urban boulevard before few years.
> The bridge will be destroyed, the underpass some hundred meters further will be filled up, https://www.google.fr/maps/@45.7305...4!1sygKaZAYvLUvgV3X8pOZZyg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 and the whole route put at ground level .


So what is gonna be the option when coming from the north (A6) and needing to go south (A7)? The A46-N346 detour? Some kind of by pass on the west of Lyon would be helpful, particulary one that avoids the chaotic toll plazas north and south of Lyon and allows you to just pay one time when leaving the motorway at your destination.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The plan was to construct a western bypass and then maybe downgrade A6-A7 through the city. The A6-A7 are downgraded but a western bypass is not in sight...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Toulouse*

Toulouse is signed on A10 south of Paris, a distance of 676 kilometers. This turns about to be a significant overestimation of the distance by about 50 kilometers at this point. From this sign to the city center of Toulouse is 622 kilometers. 

Some road operators round the distances to far away cities off to the nearest 5 or 10 kilometers, but this is a substantial error. Someone reported that Toulouse is signed too far along most of its route, especially north of Limoges. 

The discrepancy is reduced to 20 kilometers south of Limoges, which may be explained by the late opening of A20 south of Brive, but the 50+ kilometer discrepancy farther north cannot be explained by the opening of new routes where upstream signage was not corrected.

The other distances on the sign are accurate.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Another solar roadway project has failed: https://www.thelocal.fr/20190725/frances-experimental-solar-highway-has-failed-admit-officials


----------



## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Another solar roadway project has failed: https://www.thelocal.fr/20190725/frances-experimental-solar-highway-has-failed-admit-officials





> Instead of bringing in the expected €22,000 by selling the electricity generated to the state-owned power company EDF, the department had only received €8,000, the official said.
> 
> 
> But problems cropped up with excessive noise and rapid wear on the road, forcing officials to curb the speed limit on the stretch to 70 km/h.


More green idiocy, why was this not in the south of France where the SUN SHINES????  

The reduction in the speed limit and the excess fuel consumption from sub optimal speeds aloneprobably cost the poor motorists who had to drive on this crap more than the €8000 of electricity it produced. No chance any green idiot will put that number in the cost benefit analysis.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's € 8000 worth of electricity against a € 5 million investment: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/22/solar-panel-road-tourouvre-au-perche-normandy


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Mudslides in the Alps. Several roads are closed / impassable. Two stages of the Tour de France are impacted.

D1091 is closed near La Grave, creating a huge detour between Briançon and Grenoble.









Stage 19 was cut short today due to heavy hail and a mudslide downhill from Val d'Isère.










Stage 20 will be shortened tomorrow because of impassable conditions at the Cormet de Roselend.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154797355855679489


----------



## parcdesprinces

ChrisZwolle said:


>


:rofl:

Love the Krys ads on this pic ^^ ... so ironic (Krys Group being the largest French optical retailer) = _"We hope you have your glasses on... 'cause if not..."_


:runaway:


----------



## The Polwoman

> More green idiocy, why was this not in the south of France where the SUN SHINES????
> 
> The reduction in the speed limit and the excess fuel consumption from sub optimal speeds aloneprobably cost the poor motorists who had to drive on this crap more than the €8000 of electricity it produced. No chance any green idiot will put that number in the cost benefit analysis.


I'm a bit of a tree hugger myself but always was skeptical for these solar road projects: how long does it take before cracks start to appear in the panels and won't solar cells be crushed? Isn't such a road extremely slippery? Let's first utilize our lamp posts like they do in Jakarta before we start to bring this kind of risky stuff out of the lab. Only when things are proven to endure in the outside the scale of such projects can be enlarged and they were too eager. However, what doesn't matter is the sunshine in the north of France: it isn't as productive as in the south but nonetheless can save a lot of precious landscape by avoiding excessive high voltage power lines. And even on cloudy December days there is still some production.

So for now, there are still much more safer surfaces for solar panels that have yet to be utilized. Like the roofs of abysmal Dutch 1990s homes that never cool down in summer, so there's some room left on the electricity bill for AC units.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

I just drove around Normandy in a rental car for a couple days and I must say the blanket 80 km/h speed limit on all rural roads is not really well thought through. On some narrow windy steep roads with foliage right next to it (like here) 80 km/h wasn't even possible or wise but in other places like the D579 from Lisieux to A13 (which is mostly 2+1) 80 km/h felt really quite slow. 

I didn't want to risk getting a speeding ticket either (especially in a rental car) so I stuck to the limit quite firmly. Usually that wasn't an issue but especially in villages with 30 km/h speed limits I was definitely getting in the way of other traffic at times.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting historic signs at the France-Switzerland border near Cure.

It's interesting for several reasons;

* it shows a Swiss road number (90)
* it shows the Simplon pass as a major destination

Back in the days the N5 was a major route from Paris to Geneva and eventually on the south side of Lake Geneva to the Swiss border. However, before the Mont Blanc Tunnel was built (we're talking 1960s and before), the Simplon Pass may have been a major transit route for traffic from France to Italy. The Simplon Pass was reached quicker along the north side of Lake Geneva (via Lausanne), so it wasn't signed via Geneva along N5.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Really lovely fingerposts.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*M6 Lyon*

A6 through Lyon had been downgraded to an expressway with a 70 km/h speed limit. It is now signed as M6.


A6 - M6 Lyon by European Roads, on Flickr


A6 - M6 Lyon by European Roads, on Flickr


A6 - M6 Lyon by European Roads, on Flickr


A6 - M6 Lyon by European Roads, on Flickr


A6 - M6 Lyon by European Roads, on Flickr


A6 - M6 Lyon by European Roads, on Flickr


A6 - M6 Lyon by European Roads, on Flickr


A6 - M6 Lyon by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## LtBk

French local governments sure love to impose 70 km/h speed limits on urban motorways.


----------



## italystf

Reducing speed limit on urban motorways is OK IMHO. It would improve air quality without affecting travel time too much. Downgrading them to arterial roads with at-grade intersections or reducing the number of lanes (unless a replacement tunnel is built) is not OK, I think. It will make traffic problems worse.


----------



## sponge_bob

Lyons is an old design of Motorway, nobody would build a major motorway right through a city centre any more, I'd say the last one of those in western europe is now 40 years old and the Lyon design could date back to as early as the late 1950s. 

Pity they never bypassed Lyon properly to the west though. 

Here is an Old Michelin full map of France from around 20 years ago with the Millau shown as 'projected' or 'planned' ...if I remember my Michelins correctly.  

It shows how little has happened in the last 20 years too. 

http://generation3d.free.fr/images/TEST1.jpg


----------



## LtBk

italystf said:


> Reducing speed limit on urban motorways is OK IMHO. It would improve air quality without affecting travel time too much. Downgrading them to arterial roads with at-grade intersections or reducing the number of lanes (unless a replacement tunnel is built) is not OK, I think. It will make traffic problems worse.


I read somewhere online that the French city of Rennes lowered their motorway ring road speed limit to 70 km/h years ago for the same reason and upgraded them back to 90 km/h after tests showed no air improvement IIRC.


----------



## verreme

^^ I have yet to see a study showing that a reduced average speed on a particular section of road improves air quality significantly.

Anyway, much of A6/A7 through Lyon was already restricted to 70 km/h.


----------



## Braillard

ChrisZwolle said:


> Interesting historic signs at the France-Switzerland border near Cure.
> 
> 
> 
> It's interesting for several reasons;
> 
> 
> 
> * it shows a Swiss road number (90)
> 
> * it shows the Simplon pass as a major destination
> 
> 
> 
> Back in the days the N5 was a major route from Paris to Geneva and eventually on the south side of Lake Geneva to the Swiss border. However, before the Mont Blanc Tunnel was built (we're talking 1960s and before), the Simplon Pass may have been a major transit route for traffic from France to Italy. The Simplon Pass was reached quicker along the north side of Lake Geneva (via Lausanne), so it wasn't signed via Geneva along N5.




Lovely fun facts!


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Interesting historic signs at the France-Switzerland border near Cure.
> 
> It's interesting for several reasons;
> 
> * it shows a Swiss road number (90)


There is no Swiss road number 90 any more. Numbers higher than 30 (up to 191) existed from 1937 to 1970 only. Source.


----------



## x-type

Are there more M-roads iN France? Frankly, this is the first time that I hear of that.


----------



## MichiH

^^ yes, there are some M routes around Lyon and at the Côte d'Azur


----------



## Luki_SL

^^ Nice


----------



## CNGL

sponge_bob said:


> Lyons is an old design of Motorway, nobody would build a major motorway right through a city centre any more, I'd say the last one of those in western europe is now 40 years old and the Lyon design could date back to as early as the late 1950s.
> 
> Pity they never bypassed Lyon properly to the west though.
> 
> Here is an Old Michelin full map of France from around 20 years ago with the Millau shown as 'projected' or 'planned' ...if I remember my Michelins correctly.
> 
> It shows how little has happened in the last 20 years too.
> 
> http://generation3d.free.fr/images/TEST1.jpg


I date that map to 2003 or 2004, as the current Spanish motorway numbering is already in place. So not 20 years yet .


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N88 Baraqueville*

Construction is underway at the N88 four lane bypass of Baraqueville in the Aveyron department in southern France. It is the last missing segment of four lane road between Rodez and Albi. 

The northern half is significantly completed from what I saw from my car. There is asphalt on it and it looks like it will open soon.

The southern half requires several more years though. They built bridges but have not began with major earthworks yet.


746BEF44-BFCF-4B34-AF41-FBBFAAE0679C by European Roads, on Flickr


FCE23BEF-F83D-41F1-8E6E-00479FE99218 by European Roads, on Flickr


C1A6E153-4615-47A0-84C9-B8C4A0EBDAE6 by European Roads, on Flickr


34E9760A-F5D2-45A2-A436-8D79D448FA67 by European Roads, on Flickr


BE394554-9628-4929-A53E-E6EA0AEF7625 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Col du Soulor*

Some photos of the 1474 meter high Col du Soulor in the Pyrenees. It is a relatively low mountain pass, though has scenery comparable to higher passes in the Alps. 

Departmental Road D918 runs across it, on the way from Argelès-Gazost to the higher Col d'Aubisque. There is an intersection with D126 at the pass, this road leads down into the lowlands west of Lourdes.


Col du Soulor 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col du Soulor 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col du Soulor 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col du Soulor 10 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col du Soulor 11 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> Col du Soulor 11 by European Roads, on Flickr


Oh, look, another speed limit ending in 5. I had seen the 45 ones, but not the 25


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ A close-up (I usually only post a selection of photos I shot to avoid flooding threads with photos).


Col du Soulor 12 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Highway89

^^ Thanks. Now that I can see it better, the pole looks like it's made of concrete/cement, but the sign itself looks relatively new. At least, the reflective layer doesn't seem to have worn out yet. Any idea of how old the sign could be (or did you see the sticker at the back)?

PS: Beware of rams. They can be very aggressive :shifty:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N88 Viaduc de Lignon*

I took some photos of the Viaduc de Lignon, part of N88 between St. Étienne and Le Puy. It spans the Lignon river valley, above the village of Pont de Lignon.

* length: 640 meters
* height: 112 meter
* opened: 19 November 1993


Viaduc de Lignon 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Viaduc de Lignon 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


Viaduc de Lignon 08 by European Roads, on Flickr


Viaduc de Lignon 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## alserrod

It is really weird for me to see 25 km/h as speed limit but not so weird in France.

In how many countries it is not so uncommon to see X5 km/h speed limits?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A10*

Construction has began to widen a 24 kilometer segment of A10 south of Tours to six lanes. The project limits run from Veigné (A85) to Sainte-Maure-de-Touraine. It will be completed in 2023.

It is the second phase of a long-term project to widen 93 kilometers of A10 from Tours to Poitiers to 2x3 lanes.

The annual average traffic is 35,000 vehicles per day, though this is considerably higher over the summer. The southbound carriageway was also built with a lower standard, shoulders are missing on most bridges. Therefore, the project is rather extensive in scope. They need to replace two major valley bridges and 14 other bridges.

The project will eventually end at Poitiers, where traffic splits to A10 (2x2) and N10 (2x2), both go to Bordeaux. When completed, there are at least six lanes of highway capacity all the way from Paris to Bordeaux.

Project website: https://a10-veigne-ste-maure.fr/


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> It is really weird for me to see 25 km/h as speed limit but not so weird in France.
> 
> In how many countries it is not so uncommon to see X5 km/h speed limits?




In the U.S., speeds ending in “5” - 25, 35, 45.... - are much more common than in “0”. (In miles obviously.) No idea why....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Pont de Confolent*

I stumbled upon this nice historic suspension bridge, the _Pont de Confolent_. It spans the Loire River near the village of Confolent in the Haute-Loire department. It's in the shadow of the large _Viaduc du Lignon_ of N88.

The Pont de Confolent was built in 1863, so it is over 150 years old!


Pont de Lignon 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


Pont de Lignon 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


Pont de Lignon 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


Pont de Lignon 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


Pont de Lignon 10 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*D973, Manche*

The 5 kilometer long bypass of Marcey-les-Grèves opens to traffic next Monday, 16 September. It is a link between A84 and D973 (former N173) north of Avranches in the department of Manche. It is a 2x2, _voie express_.

>> https://www.ouest-france.fr/normand...tion-de-marcey-les-greves-est-ouverte-6520147


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A406:* west of Macau-Loche – Macau-South 4.5km (July 2017 to September 2019) – project – map


http://a406.aprr.com/le-projet/



> Le projet prévoit l’élargissement de l’axe Mâcon-Prissé à 2×2 voies, en transformant l’actuelle N79 de 2×1 voies en infrastructure autoroutière dans la continuité de l’A406. Sa mise en service est prévue le dernier trimestre 2019.
> Google translated:
> The project plans to widen the Mâcon-Prissé 2 × 2 lane axis, transforming the current 2 × 1 lane N79 into a motorway infrastructure in the continuity of the A406. Its commissioning is scheduled for the *last quarter of 2019*.





MichiH said:


> *A16:* L'Isle-Adam (N184) – La Croix Verte (N104) 8km (2016 to Late 2019) – project – map


https://routes.fandom.com/wiki/Autoroute_française_A16_(Projet)#Historique



> 11 décembre 2019 : Ouverture prévue (au plus tard)
> Google translated:
> December 11, 2019: Opening planned (at the latest)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N88 Col de la Pierre Plantée*

The Col de la Pierre Plantée is the highest point of N88 in the Central Massif in southern France. Although a mountain pass, it barely rises above the surrounding area, which is a rolling plateau. N88 has a long stretch at 900 - 1200 meters altitude. 

I understand that the name 'Col de la Pierre Plantée' is more or less generic and has something to do with dolmen. There are several passes in France with this name. 


N88 Col de la Pierre Plantée 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


N88 Col de la Pierre Plantée 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


N88 Col de la Pierre Plantée 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Highway89

^^ Interesting. It's similar to the many Piedrahíta/Piedrafita/Pedrafita/Perafita, Peñahincada, Piedrahincada etc. placenames you find in the Iberian peninsula.


----------



## g.spinoza

Is there a pierre plantée on the site, or is it just reminiscence of a time when it was?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N88 Viaduc de la Colagne*

I haven't seen any at that location, but there may be some in the area. There are at least two more passes with that name in the Cévennes.

Some photos of the N88 _Viaduc de la Colagne_. The bridge spans the Colagne River canyon, just before the river enters the Lot River. 

The bridge was built in 2009 at a cost of € 37 million. It is 180 meters high, that way traffic on N88 doesn't have to descend into, and then climb out of, the Lot valley to reach A75. 


N88 Viaduc de la Colagne 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


N88 Viaduc de la Colagne 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


N88 Viaduc de la Colagne 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


N88 Viaduc de la Colagne 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N79*

One carriageway of the new N79 expressway between Paray-le-Monial and Charolles in Central France has opened to traffic yesterday (1 October). It's about 7 km long.










>> https://www.lejsl.com/edition-charo...le-sur-le-nouvel-axe-entre-paray-et-charolles

Location: https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=46.4434&mlon=4.2150#map=13/46.4434/4.2150


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A6 Auxerre*

A third lane has been added to southbound A6 around Auxerre. The new lane is 12 kilometers long, located on an uphill stretch of A6.










Traffic volumes on A6 are generally fairly low once you're out of the Paris metro area, but it is also seasonal. Last year I drove a bit of A6 from Pouilly to Beaune and was surprised by the lack of traffic. It all converges at Beaune, the Beaune - Lyon section has considerably more trucks. 

You have traffic from A5, A6, A26, A31 and A36 all feeding into A6 to Lyon. A39 siphons off a bit of that traffic, but it seems clear that A6 remains the main corridor in this part of France. It has six lanes throughout. An issue is the continous passing of trucks, so the middle lane is constantly hogged by trucks going 1 km/h faster than the other.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A4 Metz*

Sanef reports that a declaration of public utility has been issued for the six lane widening of A4 at Metz. 

They will widen an 11 kilometer segment of A4 from A31 to A315 to six lanes. Construction is scheduled to start in spring 2020.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A16 Paris*

The extension of A16 to N104 on the north side of Paris is nearly completed, it is scheduled to open to traffic before the end of the year.






















































Photos by Sanef


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A406 Mâcon*

The upgrade of N79 to A406 at Mâcon has been nearly completed. The segment between exit 3 and exit 2.1 (D906) has received autoroute status on 7 October 2019.

Legislation: https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affi...96522554&categorieLien=id&oldAction=rechTexte

According to the project website there are still several ramp closures next week, but both carriageways appear to be in service.

Map: https://www.openstreetmap.org/direc....78500;46.27616,4.81071#map=15/46.2814/4.8018


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Loiret*

The Loiret department is reverting the speed limit back to 90 km/h on most of its major routes (mostly former _routes nationales_). They say it will be raised to 90 km/h if the road is wider than 6.5 meters. Local reductions to 70 km/h for safety reason remain.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N88 Baraqueville*

The first stage of the Baraqueville bypass of N88 in the Aveyron department has opened to traffic yesterday. It is a 7.3 km segment between Baraqueville and Calmont, not far from Rodez. 









>> https://www.centrepresseaveyron.fr/...lle-5-minutes-de-gagnees-au-moins,8479665.php


----------



## MichiH

Penn's Woods said:


> And Americans driving rentals will be billed by the rental company...hope they don’t start adding processing fees.


That happened to me in Vancouver, Canada. I got an extra fee from the rental agency which was even higher than the bill. I didn't realized that I had to visit the prominently displayed website to pay tolls.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Suburbanist said:


> There are services that rent you transponders on credit cards for several countries, such as https://www.tolltickets.com/en/ among others




Good to know!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A9*

The widening of A9 to six lanes from Le Boulou to the Spanish border is scheduled to be completed in February 2020, Francebleu reports. This is the final stage of the A9 widening in the Perpignan region, also the most complex one due to the mountainous terrain and large construction works at viaducts. The widening costs € 180 million for 9 kilometers.

Article: https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/tra...terminera-surement-en-fevrier-2020-1572776470


----------



## verreme

^^ This stretch has been under construction forever. First they were refurbishing the viaducts, then the widening... there were already some works in 2013. Good thing is that the whole A9 widening between Perpignan and the Spanish border has been finished on schedule. IIRC a 2020 deadline was already reported when the first widening works began 10 years ago.

Sadly, border checks at Le Boulou toll gate will still create massive traffic jams every summer.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A64 Tarbes*

Excessive rainfall in southwestern France has led to some problems. Here, A64 at Tarbes is closed eastbound due to flooding.









Photo: Météo Pyrénées


----------



## MichiH

*Voie express ouvertures*



MichiH said:


> *N57:* Devecey – north of Ecole-Valentin (A36) 4.5km (March 2015 to 2019) – ? – map


A news article from June 2019 indicates that the first segment from the Valentin shopping center (next to A36) and the entrance of Cayenne will be opened in early 2020.

The remaining segment (bypass of Cayenne) up to Devecey had some issues and is being built from June 2019 to Mid 2023.

Can anyone confirm that I got this right?




MichiH said:


> *N79:* Paray-le-Monial-East – Charolles-West 8km (February 2017 to Late 2019) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


It seems that the second carriageway is in service with one lane per carriageway since early October (source):


> La Direction Interdépartementale des Routes Centre-Est a procédé depuis le mardi 1er octobre 2019, à la mise en circulation progressive de la nouvelle section à 2×2 voies de la RN79 entre Paray-le-Monial et Charolles.


Does this indicate that it was opened on October 1?
I might be totally wrong on all this though...


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to wikisara, the following segments are u/c or planned to complete the Rennes - Angers expressway (D173 in l'Ille-et-Vilaine and D775 in le Maine-et-Loire):
> 
> *D173:* Retiers-South – La Noe Jollys 6.8km (? to 31st January 2017) – ? – map
> _*D173:* La Noe Jollys – Martigne-Ferchaud-North ~2km (? to ?) – ? – map_
> 
> 
> 
> According to wikisara, the latter is u/c and to be opened by 2019.
Click to expand...

I think that was wrong. According to a news article from February 2019, construction works for the 3.3km long voie express section from La Noe Jollys to south of Martigne-Ferchaud-North interchange have been started in February 2019 and the section should be opened in late 2020.


----------



## MichiH

Last one 



MichiH said:


> *N1:* La Possession-North – Saint-Denis-West 12.5km (December 2013 to >= 2019) – project – map


Any news on the new motorway on La Réunion? It seems to be delayed. I didn't find much but it seems that the first section might be opened in 2020 at the earliest. Well, wikipedia reports that the eastern segment might be opened in 2020 and the rest in 2023.



MichiH said:


> *N27:* Arques-la-Bataille – Manehouville 7.7km (July 2012 to 2019/20) – ? – map


wikisara indicates that the initial project was revised and the voie express should be opened in 2021 now.



MichiH said:


> The N27 extension was originally planned to be opened in July 2014 but it was delayed to late 2016. It's delayed to 2019 or 2020 now, see news article from 12th January 2016. I don't know what's exactly the cause of the delay.


----------



## MichiH

*N124/N141 voie express*



MichiH said:


> *N124:* Aubiet-East – Gimont-East 11.5km (January 2015 to 2021) – ? – map


The project site indicates that the bypass is scheduled to be opened in 2022.

The eastern extension up to L'Isle-Jourdain is not yet funded.


N141 voie express Angoulême - Limoges:



MichiH said:


> *N141:* La Vigerie – Saint-Yrieix 5.5km (? to Spring 2020) – ? – map


Project site




ChrisZwolle said:


> Some more N141 news, the voie express between Roumazières and Chabanais will start in early 2018 and it to be completed in 2020/2021. By that time, construction will start on the section between Chasseneuil-sur-Bonnieure and Roumazières. This is the final missing link of four lane voie express between Angoulême and Limoges.
> 
> http://www.lepopulaire.fr/roumazier...-141-entre-limoges-et-angouleme_12646574.html


The 12km section from Roumazières to Chabanais (or Exideuil) is u/c. I guess that works really started in early 2018. Preliminary works began in November 2017. It's to be opened in 2022 now.
The 8km section from Chasseneuil-sur-Bonniere to Roumazieres is not yet u/c.


----------



## MichiH

Another very short voie express section was completed in the north of France earlier this year. It was reportingly a bottleneck. Source.

*D301:* Aix-Noulette (D937) – Bully-les-Mines (A21) 0.8km (September 2017 to 20th September 2019) [2nd c/w] – ? – map







btw: About my N79 question from yesterday: Only the 1st c/w was opened on October 1. It seems that the 2nd c/w is also in service now. I'm not sure whether it was opend just a few days later (still October) or November/December. I'll indicate 'Fall 2019'.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N7 / N532 Valence*

A declaration of public utility has been issued for the N7 / N532 interchange near Valence. It will be reconstructed into a free-flow interchange.

N7 forms the ring road of Valence, N532 is an expressway that connects to A49 to Grenoble. N7 runs in a 'TOTSO' configuration, though that will remain the same.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N19 Sevenans*

A ~2.5 km segment of N19 has been upgraded to a 2x2 _voie express_ at Sevenans, near Belfort in Eastern France. It was part of a new interchange to A36, which opened a year ago. The new expressway was put into service on 19 December.

Here's a late November aerial video:






Judging by this photo, the N1019 to the Swiss border may have been entirely renumbered to N19. This sign on the southeast end of the project shows N19 as the through direction, the old sign had N1019.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N79*

A 5 kilometer segment of N79 west of Mâcon has been widened to four lanes. The cones were removed today. This completes the N79 / A406 upgrade around Mâcon. The new four lane segment is located between Prissé and Charnay-lès-Mâcon.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A412 Autoroute du Chablais*

A declaration of public utility (DUP) for the construction of a new motorway A412 has been issued on 24 December.

A412 (formerly planned as A400), also known as the _Autoroute du Chablais_ will create a new link between A40 and Thonon-les-Bains, south of Lake Geneva (Lac Léman) and east of Geneva. 

In recent times, the construction of many projects has began fairly quickly (< 1 year) after a DUP being issued.


----------



## verreme

^^ Looks like it's going to be isolated from the rest of the _autoroute_ network, as there's not even a _voie express_ between the Chasseurs junction and A40.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*RN4*

Someone sent this photo of N4 between Saint-Georges and Héming. He said it is open with 2x2 apart from a brief 2+0 segment.

The new carriageway of N4 opened to traffic on 12 December 2018 according to Wikisara, after which the old carriageway has been reconstructed. It is open as of this photo (taken today). I found some news buzz about a multi-day closure in early November, maybe it was put into service at that time.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Stupid speed limits, as usual.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I assume it's temporary. The regular speed limit on such roads is 110 km/h. You can see still the pre-markers that usually fade away after a couple of weeks, indicating that the asphalt is new and may not have the right friction yet.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Someone sent this photo of N4 between Saint-Georges and Héming. He said it is open with 2x2 apart from a brief 2+0 segment.
> 
> The new carriageway of N4 opened to traffic on 12 December 2018 according to Wikisara, after which the old carriageway has been reconstructed. It is open as of this photo (taken today). I found some news buzz about a multi-day closure in early November, maybe it was put into service at that time.


The N4 section has been opened 2x2 on November 8 according to wikisara although it was reported in July 2019 that works are on schedule and that the road will open 2x2 by the end of 2020. Odd.

I'm not sure that it's really 2x2 when looking on the latest satellite views. I'd trust wikisara though till I'll be proofed wrong.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Haute-Marne*

The department of Haute-Marne has reverted the speed limit back to 90 km/h on 476 kilometers of departmental roads, which are deemed safe for 90 km/h. These are chiefly the ex routes nationales.


----------



## [email protected]

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is also the two-lane A645 near Montréjeau, also an 'antenne' of A64.
> 
> They are both tolled but it's basically a long ramp to A64. There is a toll booth at the exit as there would be at any exit.
> 
> They are built in such a way that any driving on it results in passing through the toll booth, with other ramps in only one direction (to or from the toll booth). So A641 has two signed exits, but all traffic will eventually pass through the same toll booth.
> 
> A641 is basically a regular bypass of Peyrehorade that could be financed through the VINCI concession of A64.


Same think for this "antenne" of the A20, near Cahors or the A11.1 near Le Mans.


----------



## Cyril

*[F] France | road infrastructure • autoroutes de France*

There is also 6-kilometer long A126 south of Paris between Palaiseau and Saclay. It has 2x1 lanes but it is a toll-free section.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N57 Vesoul - Besançon*

The second half of the N57 upgrade to a 2x2 voie express will open to traffic tomorrow (25 February) between Rioz-Sud and Sorans-lès-Breurey. It is 4.8 kilometers long, it is the second stage of a 9.6 kilometer upgrade from Rioz to Devecey, which partially opened in 2017.

>> https://www.estrepublicain.fr/editi...n-service-ce-mardi-de-la-2x2-voies-rioz-voray

There is another segment under construction nearby from Devecey to A36, which is also supposed to open soon.

Construction is also planned to begin soon on a 3 kilometer segment between Vellefaux and Authoison, which apparently will feature a roundabout. It will take 14 months to complete.

All of these segments are between Vesoul and Besançon.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N88 St. Étienne - Le Puy*

News report about an € 260 million upgrade of N88 in the Haute-Loire département in the Massif Central. 

https://www.leveil.fr/yssingeaux-43...-deviation-du-pertuis-saint-hostien_13751063/

Construction on the Yssingeaux - Bessamorel section will commence this week and is scheduled to be completed in late 2022. However, this does not yet include the twinning of the Ramel Viaduct near Bessamorel, so there will be a brief two-lane segment.










In addition, the 10.5 kilometer bypass of Le Pertuis and Saint-Hostien is scheduled to begin late 2020 and be completed by 2024. N88 will be constructed on a new alignment due to the terrain and built-up areas. 










This means that by 2024, there will be a four lane N88 from Saint Étienne to Le Puy with the exception of two viaducts. 

The highest point of N88 in this region is located in the village of Le Pertuis:

N88 Col du Pertuis 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Perpignan - Spain*

The remaining segment of the A9 widening in the Pyrenees has been completed this week, it was officially declared complete on 24 February. The final widening project to six lanes was located between Le Boulou and the Spanish border. 

There is now a 254 kilometer stretch of A9 with six lanes, from Remoulins to the Spanish border. There is still a four lane gap on the Spanish side, AP-7 widens up to three lanes each way from La Jonquera towards Barcelona.


----------



## Suburbanist

Is the Spain-France truck cross-border traffic in La Jonquera busier than the one in Irún?


----------



## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> Is the Spain-France truck cross-border traffic in La Jonquera busier than the one in Irún?


https://www.mitma.gob.es/recursos_mfom/informe_otp8.pdf (page 82)
Slightly busier Le Boulou/La Jonquera (10.652) than Biriatou/Irun (8.640) in 2018.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N57 Vesoul - Besançon*

Some updates regarding the N57 upgrade on the north side of Besançon, from the January 2020 newsletter: http://www.bourgogne-franche-comte....1909_dreal25_lettre_info_15_web_cle743429.pdf

The Auxon-Dessus (TGV) - A36 segment is now scheduled for completion in fall 2020. It is called 'phase 1' and the cost is € 35.8 million.

The Devecey - Auxon-Dessus segment has started in 2019 and is scheduled for completion in 2023. This is 'phase 2' and the cost is € 34 million. This includes a new route around the hamlet of Cayenne. According to the newsletter photos, it appears that they have only started with utility relocation so far, but some works have also been done at the temporary roundabout at Devecey in the first half of 2019.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The D617 expressway near Perpignan was used as a giant parking area for an event in the city. There were reportedly 550 buses parked on the expressway.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

catalonian independentist meeting


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Seine-et-Marne*

The Seine-et-Marne departement has commenced getting their main departmental roads back to 90 km/h. It will be completed by the end of March.









Le Parisien: http://www.leparisien.fr/seine-et-m...ce-le-3-mars-a-provins-27-02-2020-8268171.php


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I drove there at 80 km/h and it was a pain in the **... but I was almost the only one sticking to the limit.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A63 widening*

The widening of A63 in southwest France is scheduled to be completed by late March, between Ondres and Saint-Geours-de-Maremne. 

This means that there will be a 170 kilometer stretch of A63 with six lanes from Salles to the Spanish border.










https://www.sudouest.fr/2020/02/27/vers-le-bout-du-tunnel-7248064-3469.php


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Cher*

The department of Cher has also voted to reinstate 90 km/h on its major departmental roads. 

The main city of Cher is Bourges, the rest of the department is mostly flat, empty and with long straight roads.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A79*

The concession contract for the construction of A79 has been published on 12 March. 

The concession is awarded to ALIAE (Autoroute de Liaison Atlantique Europe). The construction time is 23.5 months, so the motorway must be completed on 1 March 2022. There is a 48 year concession (to 2068). 

The concession covers 89 kilometers of N79 to be upgraded to A79. The overall project is 92 kilometers long, because APRR is separately upgrading 3 km of N79 near the A71 interchange at Montmarault. 

The government decree.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Paris*

Paris at 5 p.m. Not a single traffic jam on the motorway & expressway system. That would be extraordinary even on Sundays. 

Webcams from the tolled autoroutes also show there are almost no passenger cars on the road anymore, only truck traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An almost deserted Boulevard Périphérique in Paris, at the Porte Maillot.


----------



## EMArg

*Rennes* to *Mont Saint-Michel*, from the bus:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting bridge across the Loire west of Tours, in Langeais:


----------



## sponge_bob

This is almost like an effort to finish the Grand Countournent de Paris but further south. 









Grand contournement de Paris - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org







ChrisZwolle said:


> *A79*
> 
> The concession contract for the construction of A79 has been published on 12 March.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Snow on A61 near Carcassonne in Southern France. I think snow is rare here even in the dead of winter. Not to mention late March.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1243121849069965312


----------



## ChrisZwolle

VINCI Autoroutes offers free meals to truckers on rest areas during the coronavirus outbreak.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1243239061638328324

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1242877573522231297


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A segment of A52 has been widened north of Aubagne in Southern France.

The project is 8 kilometers long. The northern half between Pas-de-Trets and A520 has been widened from 4 to 6 lanes. The southern half from A520 to A501 has been widened from 6 to 7 lanes, with an additional southbound lane.

The widening has been completed in March 2020.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The widening of A63 in southwestern France has been completed. The last project was a 27 kilometer segment between Ondres and Saint-Geours-de-Maremne, which was delivered on 14 April.






Sud Ouest : actualités en direct et infos du journal Sudouest.fr


Retrouvez l'actualité du Sud Ouest en direct et toutes les informations régionales : politique, économie, sport, photos et vidéos.




www.sudouest.fr





This means there is now a 170 kilometer route of A63 with six lanes, from Salles to the Spanish border. All of this widening was delivered over the past 8 years.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Are there any plans to widen the A63 section between Salles and Bordeaux? I can't understand why the section with higher traffic figures and congestion of that motorway will be the last one to be widened to 2x3...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This stretch of A63 can get pretty congested during the weekends when the Bordelais drive to the beaches around Arcachon and back.

They should widen this segment of A63 as well, but as this is the only part of the motorway not under concession, development is slow. Lack of funding is an eternal problem with non-tolled motorways. France can get large projects done very efficiently, but only if it involves a toll concession. Most other projects are very slow and cut up into seemingly endless subsections (not unlike Germany...)


----------



## LtBk

I wonder if there are plans to increase the Lyon and Lille ring roads that have 70 km/h speed limits.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A consultation has started to widen the remaining segment of A63 to a six lane motoway south of Bordeaux. It is a 36 kilometer segment from Salles to the Bordeaux Ring Road. They plan to put it under concession, but the exact method is yet to be determined. A likely option is to put a single toll barrier north of the A660 interchange, that way they can cash in on drivers going both to Arcachon and Bayonne.



PLACE - Plate-forme des achats de l'Etat


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Construction has reported to have begun on the A4 widening around Metz on 16 March. It's scheduled to be completed by early 2023.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A79:* Montmarault (A71) – north of Montmarault 4km (Early 2018 to April 2020) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *N19:* Boissy-Saint-Leger-East – south of Boissy-Saint-Leger ~2km (March 2014 to April 2020) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


A79 works have been stopped due to _coronavirus_.









Travaux - Liaison RCEA/A71 : le chantier de l'échangeur de Montmarault (Allier) stoppé par le coronavirus


Le chantier de raccordement de l'A71 à la RCEA est à l'arrêt à hauteur de l'échangeur de Montmarault (Allier) à cause des mesures de confinement liées au coronavirus. APRR ignore encore quand il pourra reprendre.




www.lamontagne.fr





Does anyone know the status of N19 expressway? OSM indicates it being in service for a while now. I couldn't find any info about opening.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Two carpool lanes were inaugurated in the Parisian region today: Transports : des voies réservées au covoiturage sur l’A1 et l’A6A en Ile-de-France

One is a 5 kilometer carpool lane on A1, direction Paris, in the northern suburbs. I believe this was originally built as a bus/taxi lane that is now converted to a carpool lane. 

The other is a 3 kilometer carpool lane on A6a, direction Paris, on the south side of the city. This was a 3-lane carriageway, apparently one lane is now rededicated to a carpool lane. I wonder if this actually may improve traffic flow due to the terrible merge at the Boulevard Périphérique. Out of the 3 lanes, the right lane becomes an exit and the left 2 lanes have to squeeze on a mighty short merge onto the main lanes. It may be better to have general traffic funnel to two lanes before it gets to that merging point.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The 2019 traffic volume development on the VINCI Autoroutes network (which at 4443 kilometers, is the largest toll road operator in France).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

RN116 reopens to traffic tomorrow to alternating single lane traffic after a slide damaged the road in January. RN116 links Perpignan to Bourg-Madame near the Spanish border.

Location: OpenStreetMap


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The _Col du Petit Saint-Bernard_ is being cleared of snow.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A project on A13 near Guerville (between Paris and Rouen). They built a third viaduct to rehabilitate the other viaducts outside of traffic. The viaducts were built in the 1960s and do not have shoulders. This way they can keep 3 lanes in each direction operational. The final configuration will be 3 lanes to Paris and 2+2 lanes to Rouen.


----------



## steve5

RN19 Port-sur-Saône Déviation de Port-sur-Saône - RN19


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A844, Nantes*

A844 is a 5 kilometer autoroute that forms the northern segment of the Nantes Ring Road (Périphérique). It opened in stages between 1977 and 1993. 

The western half between N137 (Porte de Rennes) and N844 (Porte d'Orvault) has now been widened to six lanes. The third lane opened westbound on 19 June and the third lane eastbound will open in July.


----------



## g.spinoza

Hidalgo just won the election in Paris, so I think this is going to happen:









Des passages piétons sur le périphérique parisien, comme le veut Hidalgo, est-ce possible ?


LA VÉRIFICATION - L'adjoint de la maire sortante, Jean-Louis Missika, a évoqué ce projet à l'horizon 2030. Mais est-il vraiment réalisable ?




www.lefigaro.fr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The speed limit will be raised to 90 km/h on 292 kilometers of departmental roads in Indre-et-Loire (around Tours) in September.









CARTE - Indre-et-Loire : 292 km de routes repassent à 90 km/h à la rentrée de septembre


On connait la carte définitive des 292 km de routes départementales qui vont repasser à 90 km/h à la rentrée de septembre. Cela concerne moins de 10% des axes gérés par le département d'Indre-et-Loire.




www.francebleu.fr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Construction starts this month on a 4 kilometer segment of N7 in the Chantenay-Saint-Imbert area, extending the existing four lane road to south of this village. Construction will last for 2.5 years, so an opening around December 2022.









Transport - Mise à 2x2 voies de la RN7 dans la Nièvre : les travaux recommencent


L'État a, enfin, ouvert son porte-monnaie pour la RN7. Les crédits promis sont validés. Les travaux de mise à 2x2 voies peuvent recommencer. Et ont même déjà recommencé sur des parties peu visibles.




www.lejdc.fr





Location: OpenStreetMap

N7 is the continuation of A77 as a four lane expressway. This part is located between the cities of Nevers and Moulins.


----------



## Luki_SL

Brisavoinée said:


> ^^With speed limited at 70 km/h due to anti-automobile policies by the Lyon metropolitan authorities.
> 
> The city of Paris now plans to limit the speed limit on the Périphérique ring road at 50 km/h day and night. The entire city inside the Périphérique is to be switched to 30 km/h maximum speed limit by the end of August, except a handful of large axes spared this brutal measure. A majority of the 2 million Parisians are in favor of it, but a large majority of the 10 million suburban inhabitants of Greater Paris are against it according to polls, but they cannot vote to choose the mayor of Paris, and the French State has decided to allow the mayor elected by only 2 million inhabitants to decide things without the agreement of the 10 other million people.


The Périphérique speed limit will be still 70km/h 


https://www.rtl.fr/actu/debats-societe/paris-circulation-limitee-a-30-km-h-des-aout-prochain-7900053184


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An arrow truck got hit on A9 this morning. This must've been a 'zombie trucker', either falling asleep or not paying attention for really long periods of time.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1413925440918589444


----------



## Brisavoinée

Luki_SL said:


> The Périphérique speed limit will be still 70km/h
> 
> 
> https://www.rtl.fr/actu/debats-societe/paris-circulation-limitee-a-30-km-h-des-aout-prochain-7900053184


For the time being only, and only because the French State has so far refused to allow 50 km/h, but they persist on asking the French State for a 50 km/h speed limit which was in their political platform when they were reelected last year in the middle of Covid-19 with record low turnout.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> We talked about M routes... I found the first indication on GM: Google Maps M184 in Strasbourg
> 2020 GSV shows a lot of M signs in many metropoles but this is the first M route I found on Google Maps
> 
> btw: The departements Bas-Rhin and Haut-Rin were merged to _Collectivité européenne d'Alsace_. The new departement code seems to be "6ae" - former codes were "67" and "68". Collectivité européenne d'Alsace — Wikipédia The D road systems have been merged, resulting in some renumberings. Most N routes were downgraded (N4 -> RD1004, N59 -> D1059, N66 -> D1066, N83 -> D1083). Sources and map:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bas-rhin.fr/webdelib/files/unzip///seance_134651/19_Annexe_Regles_de_nommage.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bas-rhin.fr/webdelib/files/unzip///seance_134651/20_ANNEXE_Rapport_RenumRd_CD67.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bas-rhin.fr/webdelib/files/unzip///seance_134651/21_Carte_A0_renum_renom_RNRD_CEA_2020_04_16.pdf


The N route downgrade in Alsace was officially approved on 24th March 2021. The procedure included the downgrade of A340 (4km from A4 towards Haguenau) which is D1340 now. March 2021 GSV still shows "A340".









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org







https://www.batzendorf.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/2021_03_24_Arr%C3%AAt%C3%A9-renommage-RN-transf%C3%A9r%C3%A9es-CeA.pdf


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I wonder how those people at Open Street Map keep track of all those road renumberings. Most of them don't make headlines in the media.

I was driving near Dijon recently and I noticed on Waze that they also implemented M-roads.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A4, A35 and A351 in Strasbourg will be declassed on 1 January 2021. These motorways are transferred to the metropolitan government in anticipation of the opening of the new western bypass of Strasbourg. I assume they will be renumbered to an M-route similar to M353 (former N353).


A351 was still signed in February 2021. It was changed to M351 on OSM but A4 and A35 are still indicated.

The OSM change refers to a source but I cannot find anything about it in the document :-(

March 2021 GSV still shows A35 and A351.

wikisara confims the downgrade of A4, A35 and A351 to M4, M35 and M351:








Autoroute française A4 (Ancien tronçon)


Le tronçon final de l'A4 entre Reichstett et Strasbourg géré par la DIR Est a été transféré à l'Eurométropole de Strasbourg en 2021, ce qui a entraîné son déclassement. 17 12 1965 : Section Reichstett - Strasbourg (sortie 48 - A35) Lien 06 12 1971 : Section Reichstett - Strasbourg (sortie 48 -...




routes.fandom.com












Autoroute française A35 (Ancien tronçon)







routes.fandom.com












Autoroute française A351 (Ancien tronçon)


L'autoroute A351, ou A351, est une ancienne et courte autoroute française, antenne de l'A35, desservant les quartiers Ouest de Strasbourg (Hautepierre, Koenigshoffen...) et permettant de relier l'A35 à la RN4 (route Paris - Strasbourg). Elle permettait aussi l'accès au Zénith de Strasbourg...




routes.fandom.com





but A340 is not yet updated:








Autoroute française A340 (Ancien tronçon)


L'autoroute A340, ou A340, est une ancienne et très courte autoroute française, antenne de l'A4, dont le principal rôle était de relier cette dernière à la voie express D1340 (67) qui la prolongeait vers Haguenau. Néanmoins, l'A340 reliait également, dans un rôle moindre, l'A4 à la D421 (67) qui...




routes.fandom.com


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder how those people at Open Street Map keep track of all those road renumberings. Most of them don't make headlines in the media.


I also wonder why A340 and A351 were changed to D1340 and M351 but A4 and A35 are still indicated as such.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I was driving near Dijon recently and I noticed on Waze that they also implemented M-roads.


Many cities have (partially) signed their M routes in the last monthgs.... see my former posts or check GSV from late 2020 and early 2021.


----------



## fabricofparis

Brisavoinée said:


> ^^With speed limited at 70 km/h due to anti-automobile policies by the Lyon metropolitan authorities.
> 
> The city of Paris now plans to limit the speed limit on the Périphérique ring road at 50 km/h day and night. The entire city inside the Périphérique is to be switched to 30 km/h maximum speed limit by the end of August, except a handful of large axes spared this brutal measure. A majority of the 2 million Parisians are in favor of it, but a large majority of the 10 million suburban inhabitants of Greater Paris are against it according to polls, but they cannot vote to choose the mayor of Paris, and the French State has decided to allow the mayor elected by only 2 million inhabitants to decide things without the agreement of the 10 other million people.


Granted, people across the region will be affected by this. But the 2 million people who actually live in the city are the ones whose quality of life is measurably worsened by noisy speeding motorcycles, by drivers using the city as a shortcut for their polluting cars, by people who could otherwise choose public transport opting instead to drive. The 2 million people are those who walk and cycle in the city and learn to get used to near misses with drivers who fail to stop at crossings. Sometimes, people among those 2 million are injured or even killed. The risk of this is dramatically reduced when the speed is reduced.

Indeed, why should the entire population of Île-de-France vote on something that's happening only within the city of Paris? Should Parisians also vote on town planning issues in other towns? Perhaps the whole of France should be consulted on every local planning issue. Since we welcome millions of foreign tourists each year, perhaps the entire world should have their say.


----------



## Brisavoinée

fabricofparis said:


> Indeed, why should the entire population of Île-de-France vote on something that's happening only within the city of Paris?


Why should the population of the entire city of Paris vote on something that's only happening in the 16th or 8th arrondissements? Yet the people of these right-wing arrondissements have been ruled by the far-left city hall of Paris for 21 years now, against their will, resulting in considerably degraded living conditions (Haussmannian avenues not properly maintained, pavement of Avenue Foch or Avenue de la Grande Armée worthy of Venezuela, weed allowed to grow everywhere on the sidewalks by the Green crazies running Paris, etc).

As for your rant about car drivers, please! The biggest nuisance in Paris now is bicyclists and electric scooters who do not respect traffic lights and pedestrians. 2 pedestrians killed only 2 weeks ago.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The six lane widening of A75 south of Clermont-Ferrand will be put into service tomorrow morning. A 12 kilometer segment of A75 from A71 to Le Crest has been expanded to six lanes. This is the first six lane segment of A75 (not counting slow lanes on hills). It was financed through an APRR concession extension. There are no tolls on the widened A75 itself. 

There will be a 90 km/h speed limit until late September, due to remaining roadside works. It will be 110 km/h from September onwards.









INFO FRANCE BLEU : l'A75 passe (enfin) en 2X3 voies au sud de Clermont-Ferrand à partir du mardi 13 juillet


En travaux depuis 2018, l'élargissement de l'A75 sera réellement effectif à partir de demain, aux alentours de 8h, entre La Pardieu et Le Crest. Pour l'instant, la vitesse sera toujours limité à 90 km/h. Elle devrait passer à 110 km/h fin septembre.




www.francebleu.fr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A project to reconstruct the A11 / A844 / N844 interchange on the northeast side of Nantes (Porte de Gesvres) has officially commenced today. It is a three year project to replace a tight trumpet interchange by directional ramps with two lanes each way. A844/N844 forms the beltway of Nantes (périphérique).

I'm not sure if they are also going to widen A844 to six lanes west of the interchange. N844 is undersized for a metropolitan area of this size.

Project website: Accueil - Porte de gesvres



https://www.ouest-france.fr/pays-de-la-loire/nantes-44000/nantes-debut-de-trois-ans-de-travaux-controverses-porte-de-gesvres-956a30ce-e245-11eb-b625-a28ebd057ac4


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Six lanes on A75:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414834848829779968


----------



## Brisavoinée

Due to the shameful inaction of the French state, which, here as elsewhere, mismanages the roads under its responsibility, the departmental council of Orne is requesting for RN12 (the royal, then imperial, then national road from Paris to Rennes) to be transferred by the French State to the departmental council of Orne, so they can FINALLY invest in it and complete its widening to 2*2 lanes (currently only from Mortagne-au-Perche to Alençon, but they want to prolong the widening from Mortagne all the way to the eastern border of Orne.









Le Conseil départemental de l'Orne réclame à nouveau le transfert de la RN12


Les élus de l'Orne réclament le transfert du tronçon ornais de la RN12 dans le giron du Département pour effectuer les travaux de modernisation, en partenariat avec la Région.




actu.fr





Historically, this was the main road from Paris to Rennes and Brittany. On a side note, my ancestor was post master and owned the coaching inn on that road before Alençon in the 1780s (there was a coaching inn to change horses and sleep at night every 15 to 20 miles or so on that road). When railroads were built in the 19th century, there was a debate in the French Parliament as to whether the railroad from Paris to Rennes and Brittany would follow the royal road via Alençon, or whether it would be deflected south to go through Le Mans. The route via Le Mans presented less obstacles (the route via Alençon crossed the picturesque but hilly Perche area), and the urban elites of Le Mans lobbied better in the Parliament, so as a result the railroad was built via Le Mans.

Later in the 1970s when they built motorways the motorway from Paris to Nantes/Rennes was built along the railroad via Le Mans, and later in the 1980s the TGV line was also built via Le Mans. And this is how Alençon declined considerably in the 19th and 20th centuries. Instead of being a major urban center on the main axis from Paris to Brittany as it was before 1850, it became a backwater away from the main railroad and road axes. The old royal road (RN 12) has been partly enlarged, but not everywhere. It's still a long trek to reach Paris from Alençon.

Ironically with carpooling services like Blablacar the old royal road is now used a lot by people traveling between Paris and Rennes/Brittany, because it's toll free, it's shorter than the motorway via Le Mans, and barely longer in terms of time. If they enlarged it entirely, nobody would use the A11/A61 motorways to go to Rennes anymore.


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## ChrisZwolle

There have been problems with a rockwall along A20 just south of Brive. Apparently it is unstable and there is a permanent reduction to single lane traffic at that location, which causes frequent congestion, which can get pretty bad on Fridays and Saturdays. The lane reduction is southbound, on the toll-free section of A20.


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## ChrisZwolle

The final four-lane segment of D173 in the Ille-et-Vilaine department will be inaugurated on 26 July. D173 forms the western part of the 'Axe Rennes-Angers', a developmental route to a four lane expressway between the cities of Rennes and Angers. There is no motorway in this corridor. 

The final segment is about 3.8 kilometers long from a temporary endpoint near the hamlet of La Noë Jollys to the town of Martigné-Ferchaud. This completes the four laning in the Ille-et-Vilaine department.

Location: OpenStreetMap









Axe Bretagne Anjou : ouverture la 2x2 voies en Ille-et-Vilaine ce lundi 26 juillet


Les travaux sont enfin terminés. La 2x2 voies de la section La Nöe Jollys - Martigné-Ferchaud (Ille-et-Vilaine), entre Rennes et Angers, sera inaugurée ce lundi 26 juillet 2021.




actu.fr


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## Brisavoinée

Claude Weill is a famous left-wing journalist in France. 10 years ago he would most probably have voted for the Socialist-Green coalition that has (mis)ruled Paris for 20 years now. The video shows the expressway on the right bank of the Seine, where one of the 2 lanes of the expressway was abruptly closed to car traffic a year or two ago, and transformed into bike lanes, which seldom see any bicycles at all.

Translation: "Paris in July. [when half of the population is away on holidays on the coasts and countryside] To purposely choke all the great axes crossing Paris from East to West and from North to South and vice versa is a mad decision which has nothing to do with the necessary promotion of cycling (proof in the video). Please tell me of just one metropolis in the world that has done the same."


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1419717766161092620


----------



## Bender

There are no "necessary promotion" of biking to do. People don't need the nanny state to tell them if they can bike or not.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I believe this may be a new record. 5h30 travel time between Lyon and Orange (180 km).


----------



## verreme

^^ I honestly don't know what they're waiting for to widen A7 and the remainder of A9. Toll concessionnaires are very fast with construction once the DUP is issued.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't understand why they do not address the problems on A7. This goes beyond just a few weekends, it is by far the most congested intercity route in France, other routes are widened while having much less congestion. 

Addressing the A7 problems adequately is going to be a complex task. They would need to widen pretty much the entire route from Givors to Orange for it to make sense. And also improve the A7/A46/A47 interchange at Givors. And maybe bypassing Valence. Any widening means that every structure on A7 would need to be replaced, if they're having to do that, they may as well go full-out and widen A7 to 2x5 lanes. 

The remaining four lane segment of A9 is not as problematic, there was no congestion on it today. Traffic splits to a lot of destinations: besides A7 / A8 / A9 also to Ardèche, Drôme & Vaucluse.


----------



## Brisavoinée

verreme said:


> ^^ I honestly don't know what they're waiting for to widen A7 and the remainder of A9. Toll concessionnaires are very fast with construction once the DUP is issued.


"It isn't the solution, trains blablabla, cars are evil blablabla, less trucks blablabla, global warming blablabla, motorways destroy biodiversity blablabla." That basically sums up the debate in France regarding those widening.

Oh, there's also:

"Less trucks, more cargo on freight trains, we GOT to develop freight trains."
"So you mean you're going to force SNCF unions to stop striking all the time and making French freight trains terrible in terms of reliability?"
"You gotta be kidding! Unions are free to strike, it's written in the constitution."

😂


----------



## cuartango

ChrisZwolle said:


> and widen A7 to 2x5 lanes.


That is crazy! is there any motor road in Europe with 2x5 lanes during 200 km or so?


----------



## Brisavoinée

This is NOT happening anyway. In the current anti-motorway climate of France, it was rejected more than 10 years ago.


> L'A7 souffre de saturation depuis plusieurs années. Des projets radicaux ont fourmillé dans les années 90, comme l'élargissement à 2X4 voies, la construction de voies parallèles de délestage ou même d'un nouvel axe sur la rive droite du Rhône via Alès. Mais décision a été prise de ne rien faire à la suite d'un débat public lancé en 2002. La vallée du Rhône est déjà bien surchargée en infrastructures : élus et habitants ne se sont pas remis du passage du TGV vers Marseille. Et depuis le Grenelle de l'environnement, on imagine mal les autorités revenir sur ce statu quo. Il a été acté "_de ne pas élargir le tuyau mais de l'optimiser", _comme le résume Christophe Karlin, directeur du dialogue territorial chez ASF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comment l'A7 est devenue un piège estival |
> 
> 
> Depuis quelques étés, l'autoroute du Soleil est surtout celle des bouchons. Les plus beaux, les plus longs de France. Des mesures sont prises pour améliorer la fluidité de cet axe qui commande l&
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lyoncapitale.fr





> un projet d'élargissement à deux fois cinq voies de l'A 7 dans la Vallée du Rhône, c'est-à-dire les trois voies actuelles plus deux voies latérales qui seraient réservées aux poids lourds, avait été proposé par la direction des routes. Il n'aurait eu pour effet que d'intensifier les nuisances de ce véritable goulet d'étranglement de l'axe Nord-Sud qui traverse, de Montélimar à Orange, des zones urbaines très denses. Ce projet a été abandonné.
> 
> 
> 
> Désengorgement de l'autoroute A 7 - Sénat


If anything, what awaits for us in the future is a rationing of travels. The French Greens are already talking of it, rationing car, air, and even train travels, by giving a fixed credit of travels to people per year that would prevent them from traveling anymore once it's entirely spent. And considering that in the past 20 years all the Green ideas have ended up being implemented as official policies by non-Green parties at one point or another, it's not impossible that in the future a French president will make the rationing of travels official policy.

PS: The French government has just banned all flights from Bordeaux, Lyon, Nantes to Orly Airport, which was a big demand by the Greens (and they were asking for more, also asking to ban all flights from Toulouse and Marseille to Paris (both Orly and CDG), which the next president will probably ban, since there is a competition to be "more green than the Greens" in this country).


----------



## Bender

France, the country where widening a major highway to a mere 2x4 lanes is "radical" 🤣


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## Brisavoinée

"Radical" in "des projets radicaux" (in the quoted text) doesn't mean radical in the sense of radical/extremist policies. It means a projetct that brings a radical/definitive solution to a problem.


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## ChrisZwolle

Almost 3 hours delay on A7 southbound from Lyon to Orange. A 4h20 travel time on a Monday afternoon is highly unusual. This illustrates how much holiday traffic there is to southeast France, it appears to be significantly more than previous years. Yesterday (Sunday) it was equally bad. These travel times are usually only recorded on Black Saturdays.


----------



## verreme

Brisavoinée said:


> This is NOT happening anyway. In the current anti-motorway climate of France, it was rejected more than 10 years ago.
> 
> 
> If anything, what awaits for us in the future is a rationing of travels. The French Greens are already talking of it, rationing car, air, and even train travels, by giving a fixed credit of travels to people per year that would prevent them from traveling anymore once it's entirely spent. And considering that in the past 20 years all the Green ideas have ended up being implemented as official policies by non-Green parties at one point or another, it's not impossible that in the future a French president will make the rationing of travels official policy.
> 
> PS: The French government has just banned all flights from Bordeaux, Lyon, Nantes to Orly Airport, which was a big demand by the Greens (and they were asking for more, also asking to ban all flights from Toulouse and Marseille to Paris (both Orly and CDG), which the next president will probably ban, since there is a competition to be "more green than the Greens" in this country).


I appreciate your knowledge on road stuff, but there's so much political commentary on your posts that it's too hard for me to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'm not calling you out; I just wanted to say that even if you write a very long post with a lot of useful information, I don't read it at all because of that.


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## Brisavoinée

^^Proof you read it, otherwise you wouldn't have responded.


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## ChrisZwolle

It can't be all bad in France. They have very cool roads. Like D942 through the _Gorges de la Nesque, _opened in 1920, bypassed in 1979.


Gorges de la Nesque 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de la Nesque 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de la Nesque 16 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de la Nesque 22 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de la Nesque 26 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de la Nesque 37 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

The new A71 / A79 interchange at Montmarault will be inaugurated today. This also seems to include about 3 kilometers of A79 motorway that was built by APRR.









Politique - Le secrétaire d'État Joël Giraud en visite à Montmarault (Allier) pour inaugurer le nouvel échangeur de l'autoroute A71


L'inauguration du nouvel échangeur autoroutier de Montmarault (Allier) aura lieu ce jeudi 5 août en fin d'après-midi, en présence du secrétaire d'État en charge de la ruralité, Joël Giraud.




www.lamontagne.fr


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## Bender

Brisavoinée said:


> "Radical" in "des projets radicaux" (in the quoted text) doesn't mean radical in the sense of radical/extremist policies. It means a projetct that brings a radical/definitive solution to a problem.


I don't read it the sentence like you do. To me, it means that widening the highway is too "extreme".
It's unfathomable to build a 2x5 highway to accomodate the traffic in summer and make Southern France more welcoming to tourists. Better have them fly to Spain or Italy.


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## ChrisZwolle

I believe the 2x5 proposal came at the same time when A79 was planned as a second north-south motorway, which would've ran west of A7 and A9 from Lyon to near Narbonne. At that time a full ten lane widening of A7 was estimated to be substantially cheaper than a completely new motorway over such a long distance.

The A9 congestion problems have been solved by widening most of it to six lanes and completing the bypass of Montpellier. There was not much congestion on it this summer, especially compared to A7 which fully clogs up over the entire 180 kilometers to Orange. 

A7 traffic is huge. It serves holiday traffic to so many destinations: long-distance traffic to Marseille, Provence or Côte d'Azur, to the Languedoc and into Spain, but also very large amounts of traffic to valleys east and west of A7 in Ardèche & Drôme. Almost every exit of A7 leads to very popular destinations, especially between Valence and Orange. 

Due to this enormous concentration of holiday traffic, A7 is much more congested than most other motorways which only clog up a few Saturdays per year, like A8, A9, A10, A20, A61 & A71-A75.


----------



## Brisavoinée

^^Write to the minister in charge of roads. Problem is, in the extreme-Green climate of France, this ministry has been disbanded and merged with the environment ministry, pompously renamed by Macron "Ministry of Ecological Transition" (a name that is a calque of "demographic transition", and is supposed to mean we should switch from an energy-intensive society to an energy-frugal society). And to make it worst, the minister named by Macron at the head of the "Ministry of Ecological Transition" is a lady from the Green Party (who has now left the party to rally Macron), who is opposed, among other things, to nuclear power and would like to close French nuclear power plants, and is of course pro-wind turbines. She's also hostile to air travel and opposed to the expansion of French airports. And concerning roads, she would of course like to greatly reduce car traffic and car travels. 

So go ask such a lady to enlarge the A7! Good luck!! 😂 










The French political system has become really perverse. We now entrust road and airport infrastructure to the very people who are opposed to automobile and air travel. It's as if we entrusted the migration policy of France to far-right politicians, or the finance and economy ministry to Communist politicians.


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## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> I believe the 2x5 proposal came at the same time when A79 was planned as a second north-south motorway, which would've ran west of A7 and A9 from Lyon to near Narbonne. At that time a full ten lane widening of A7 was estimated to be substantially cheaper than a completely new motorway over such a long distance.
> 
> The A9 congestion problems have been solved by widening most of it to six lanes and completing the bypass of Montpellier. There was not much congestion on it this summer, especially compared to A7 which fully clogs up over the entire 180 kilometers to Orange.
> 
> A7 traffic is huge. It serves holiday traffic to so many destinations: long-distance traffic to Marseille, Provence or Côte d'Azur, to the Languedoc and into Spain, but also very large amounts of traffic to valleys east and west of A7 in Ardèche & Drôme. Almost every exit of A7 leads to very popular destinations, especially between Valence and Orange.
> 
> Due to this enormous concentration of holiday traffic, A7 is much more congested than most other motorways which only clog up a few Saturdays per year, like A8, A9, A10, A20, A61 & A71-A75.


But is there even space to widen A7 to 2x5 configuration over the whole length? I highly doubt it. Not without very major (and expensive) engineering. 

How do you squeeze 2x5 here:









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com






We are also talking about major disruption, probably over decade or so. We are talking about rebuilding every single viaduct and bridge. I would argue that bypassing crucial stretches by another motorway would be preferable. 

There is also issue or resiliency. Having virtually all north - south traffic "hanging" on one massive road means huge disruption (and lack of alternative) in case of incidents.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Any expansion would require a reconstruction of most or all bridges and overpasses, so in terms of cost it doesn't really matter that much if 2x4 or 2x5 lanes are constructed. 

It has been proposed to bypass Valence to the east. Elsewhere there is sufficient space to add another 7 meters of pavement in either direction. 

The cost would be enormous, that's a given. But this toll road is also one of the most profitable in France. The last expansions were completed more than 30 years ago, so this toll road has not seen any major investment since 1989, except for regular maintenance and minor tweaks. 

The widening of A7 from 2x2 to 2x3 lanes was completed in stages;

Valence - Orange: 1978-1979
Lyon - Valence: 1984-1989

The bonds for the expansion were likely paid off a long time ago. The AADT on A7 is approximately 70,000 vehicles per day (with the emphasis on _average_). Assuming an average toll revenue of € 0.15 per kilometer, that means that the toll revenue would be around € 2 million per day or over € 700 million per year. That is over € 20 billion of revenue over a 30 year period, which can surely finance a 10 lane expansion.


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## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> Assuming an average toll revenue of € 0.15 per kilometer, that means that the toll revenue would be around € 2 million per day or over € 700 million per year. That is over € 20 billion of *revenue* over a 30 year period, which can surely finance a 10 lane expansion.


There is also cost of maintenance, toll collection, cost of financing etc.

It is not like revenue = profit.

Anyway, the main question for private company would be how much *extra* revenue and especially *profit* they can get for all that enormous cost of expansion to 2x5.


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## ChrisZwolle

geogregor said:


> Anyway, the main question for private company would be how much *extra* revenue and especially *profit* they can get for all that enormous cost of expansion to 2x5.


Sure, but that doesn't stop French concessionaires from expanding motorways elsewhere that have much less congestion. Apparently it is profitable to do that. Many other motorways are being widened while having substantially less days with traffic congestion than A7. This problem seems to be more political in nature. 

However in a scenario where the choice is between a ten lane widening or a 200+ kilometer new motorway, I think a widening is considerably more cost-effective, with a much lower environmental footprint as well. 

The previously considered A79 through Ardèche towards the southwest would improve access to those areas, but also have a high construction cost due to the mountainous terrain.


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> Sure, but that doesn't stop French concessionaires from expanding motorways elsewhere that have much less congestion. Apparently it is profitable to do that. Many other motorways are being widened while having substantially less days with traffic congestion than A7. This problem seems to be more political in nature.


Sure, it could be political. But widening 30 or even 50km from 2x2 to 2x3 is different kettle of fish to widening 200 km from 2x3 to 2x5. Completely different scope and scale of the project, both technically and financially. We are talking about really serious money here. With unclear extra revenue stream.



> However in a scenario where the choice is between a ten lane widening or a 200+ kilometer new motorway, I think a widening is considerably more cost-effective, with a much lower environmental footprint as well.
> 
> The previously considered A79 through Ardèche towards the southwest would improve access to those areas, but also have a high construction cost due to the mountainous terrain.


I think chances of either solution being adopted any time soon are in low single percentage points.


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## cuartango

geogregor said:


> Sure, it could be political. But widening 30 or even 50km from 2x2 to 2x3 id different kettle of fish to widening 200 km from 2x3 to 2x5. Completely different scope and scale of the project, both technically and financially. We are talking about really serious money here. With unclear extra revenue stream.


Well, they can start from 2x3 to 2x4, also with Valence bypass, etc.


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## ChrisZwolle

A suspension bridge across the Garonne River in La Réole (southeast of Bordeaux) has been closed to traffic today after a problem with the suspension cables was identified. According to the press release, the cables are 'unraveling', which sounds like a serious issue. The bridge already had a 3.5 ton weight limit for several years.









Fermeture du Pont suspendu de Rouergue à la Réole







www.gironde.fr





The bridge was built in 1935 and renovated in 1998. There is an another bridge 1.5 km upstream, so there isn't a giant detour for traffic. 

Location: OpenStreetMap


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## Brisavoinée

geogregor said:


> How do you squeeze 2x5 here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


They should build a large motorway bypass of the city, just as they did in Reims where the motorway went right through the center of the city, and a bypass was built in the late 2000s. It's insane that such a large motorway separates the Medieval city center of Valence from its river. The current motorway should be demolished, and the river banks turned into a park and linked to the city center.


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## ChrisZwolle

The planning for the six lane expansion of A11 along the north side of Angers is stopped by VINCI Autoroutes, apparently by order of the French government:



https://www.ouest-france.fr/pays-de-la-loire/angers-49000/angers-vinci-autoroutes-suspend-le-projet-d-elargissement-de-l-a11-0ed4c28c-118d-11ec-aae0-4d1212b14fe9



The widening was originally scheduled for 2021-2023. This part of A11 has a tunnel that is designed for six lanes. The biggest project complexity was the construction of a new bridge across the Maine River.


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## Bender

What won't they do to suck up to the greens?


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## ChrisZwolle

200 mm of rain has fallen in the Gard / Herault area this morning, causing substantial flash flooding. A9 is under water between Montpellier and Nîmes:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1437761243327180807


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> 200 mm of rain has fallen in the Gard / Herault area this morning, causing substantial flash flooding. A9 is under water between Montpellier and Nîmes:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1437761243327180807


Just perfect.
I have to travel there next Friday...

EDIT: 
The stretch is marked as closed on Google Maps, but strangely it still directs you through it...


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## ChrisZwolle

[VIDEO] Inondations dans le Gard : l'A9 coupée dans les deux sens entre Nîmes ouest et Gallargues, pas de train avant 23 h


L'A9 est coupée dans les deux sens de circulation ce mardi 14 septembre depuis le début d'après-midi pour permettre des opérations d'hélitreuillage des naufragés pris au piège des inondations.




www.midilibre.fr


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## ChrisZwolle

There is still a massive gridlock in the Nîmes area. A9 is still mostly blocked, the most severe flooding appears to have been at the departmental border around the Vidourle River. Traffic is detoured via secondary roads but those are totally gridlocked as well. Some drivers may have been stuck there for 8-10 hours now.


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## cuartango

^^ What a mess!!!


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## Attus

In such a disaster you may be happy to survive.


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## g.spinoza

Did they already reopen? Google shows no closures and green traffic line.


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## ChrisZwolle

Apparently traffic was restored yesterday late evening:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1437885949216804868


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## ChrisZwolle

The exit numbering will be changed on two motorways next month.

On A4, the exit numbering will be recalibrated east of Reims, all the way to Strasbourg. It currently runs sequential from 27 to 51, but the opening of the Reims bypass in 2010 means that there was a gap because the new bypass has fewer exits than the original urban route. Additionally, several interchanges were added over the years, resulting in decimal interchange numbers. The decision was made in 2018 but the actual rollout will be in October this year. The final exit (Strasbourg-Centre) will remain as Exit 51.

The new exit numbering can be found here: https://www.bulletin-officiel.devel...letinofficiel-0030535/TRAT1821796S_annexe.pdf


Also, the exit numbering on A750 west of Montpellier will change in October. It is currently based on that of A75. It will be reversed and begin at 4 in Montpellier, leaving numbers 1-3 reserved for the future Montpellier bypass.


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## ChrisZwolle

Construction will commence on 4 October on a 4.3 kilometer four lane upgrade of D751 at Port-Saint-Père in the Loire-Atlantique department. The existing bypass of Port-Saint-Père (opened 1983) will be widened to four lanes. This is part of the 'Axe Nantes - Pornic', an effort to create a four lane _voie express _from Nantes to the Atlantic coast near Pornic. The first four lane segment opened in 2000 between D723 (former N23) and Bouaye. This project is an extension of that.









Le projet d'aménagement de la route Nantes - Pornic







inforoutes.loire-atlantique.fr





Location: OpenStreetMap


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## ChrisZwolle

NGE has been designated the winner of the concession to construct the new Autoroute A69 in Southern France. The 62 kilometer motorway will link up the Toulouse area to Castres. It will feed into A680 on the west end, A680 will be absorbed into A69.

Construction could start pretty fast, with construction scheduled between 2022 and 2025. This is now the largest greenfield motorway project in France.









Autoroute Toulouse-Castres : Jean Castex dans le Tarn lance le chantier, le groupe NGE désigné concessionnaire


En visite dans le Tarn ce samedi 25 septembre à Lagarrigue, le Premier ministre annonce que le groupe de travaux publics NGE sera chargé de construire et de gérer l'autoroute A69 entre Toulouse et Castres. Le concessionnaire...




france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr


----------



## AttikoMetro

ChrisZwolle said:


> NGE has been designated the winner of the concession to construct the new Autoroute A69 in Southern France. The 62 kilometer motorway will link up the Toulouse area to Castres. It will feed into A680 on the west end, A680 will be absorbed into A69.
> 
> Construction could start pretty fast, with construction scheduled between 2022 and 2025. This is now the largest greenfield motorway project in France.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Autoroute Toulouse-Castres : Jean Castex dans le Tarn lance le chantier, le groupe NGE désigné concessionnaire
> 
> 
> En visite dans le Tarn ce samedi 25 septembre à Lagarrigue, le Premier ministre annonce que le groupe de travaux publics NGE sera chargé de construire et de gérer l'autoroute A69 entre Toulouse et Castres. Le concessionnaire...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr


Now let's hope they also award the concession for the contournement est de Rouen before the end of the year.


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## ChrisZwolle

I took some photos of the Tunnel Bielsa - Aragnouet in de Pyrenees. This tunnel was built in 1976 and was a completely new connection through the Pyrenees, there was no pass route before the tunnel. The 3 kilometer long tunnel was planned and designed in the 1960s as a 'link between Hamburg and Madrid'. It obviously never fulfilled such a role, especially the access road on the French side is steep and narrow and not suitable for trucks.

The tunnel has some kind of alternating traffic, though not entirely, there was bidirectional traffic in the tunnel. Maybe the alternating traffic engages when there are large vehicles, the tunnel is quite narrow (6 m wide carriageway). It was renovated in 2010-2011, the French side was initially even an unlit tunnel.

The tunnel is a category E, which is the most restrictive type, no hazardous cargo is allowed through the tunnel.


Tunnel Aragnouet-Bielsa 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


Tunnel Aragnouet-Bielsa 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


Tunnel Aragnouet-Bielsa 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


Tunnel Aragnouet-Bielsa 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


Tunnel Aragnouet-Bielsa 08 by European Roads, on Flickr

Welcome to France! = speeding ticket.

Tunnel Aragnouet-Bielsa 10 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## verreme

^^ There's always alternating traffic since the tunnel was renewed. I don't mind it at all -the French portal may very well be the prettiest place in the world to wait.


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## CNGL

The thing that baffles me the most is why they have never rerouted D929 to the tunnel. As a former national route (ex-N129), it would make sense for D929 to reach the border instead of dead-ending at the Cap de Long lake. The Spanish side was already corrected a long time ago (now an "orange" road, A-138).


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## ChrisZwolle

The 7.9 kilometer long Port-sur-Saône bypass of RN19 in Eastern France will open to traffic on 25 October 2021. Construction took 5 years and has cost € 130 million. It is built as a four lane _voie express._









Port-sur-Saône. La déviation mise en service lundi 25 octobre


La déviation de Port-sur-Saône, en Haute-Saône, sera mise en service à partir de lundi 25 octobre.




www.estrepublicain.fr


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## ChrisZwolle

A 2 kilometer segment of N70 at Blanzy has been expanded to a four lane _voie express_. It opened to traffic today.

N70 was widened west and east of the La Fiolle interchange, from a railroad overpass to the existing four lane segment to Montchanin. Construction took exactly two years.









Blanzy. RCEA : Blanzy - La Fiolle ouvre en 2x2 voies ce vendredi après-midi


La RCEA compte désormais 2 kilomètres supplémentaires de structure en 2x2 voies : le tronçon de Blanzy - La Fiolle ouvre ce vendredi après-midi, après des travaux achevés depuis quelques jours déjà.




www.lejsl.com





Location: https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=46.7012&mlon=4.4105#map=15/46.7012/4.4105


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## MichiH

Brisavoinée said:


> French Greens already have an answer to that: electric cars pollute as much as thermic cars, because producing the batteries is extremely polluting. So electric cars are not the solution, only a reduction of car traffic is the solution, etc, etc.


Exactly. Electric cars are also heavier and produce more dust from the brakes. Electric cars are not cleaner.


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## Bender

MichiH said:


> Exactly. Electric cars are also heavier and produce more dust from the brakes. Electric cars are not cleaner.


More dust from the brakes? Quite the opposite since you rarely brake in the usual sense. Electric vehicles use regenerative braking to recharge the battery as much as possible. The brake pads are used much more rarely, especially once the driver gets used to it.
And the initial point was about CO2 emissions. Heavy or not heavy does not make a difference when the emissions are 0 and your electricity comes from nuclear power plants or hydro.


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## Brisavoinée

^^That's supposing your electricity comes from nuclear plants. Won't happen in Germany now that Merkel has stupidly decided to close all nuclear plants. And even in France the government was stupid enough to close the Fessenheim nuclear plant, and not to plan for new nuclear plants for years, due to the 2012 deal between the Socialists and the Greens, whereby the Greens agreed to support Hollande in the 2012 presidential election in return for an agreement to reduce the share of nuclear electricity from today 75% to just 50% by... 2025 (!), which was completely unrealistic, but which nonetheless had concrete effects, such as closing Fessenheim and not planning for new nuclear plants.

And to make things worse, Macron (who was an advisor and then minister under Hollande) decided to keep applying that agreement after being elected in 2017, despite the fact the Greens don't support him, and in fact harshly criticize him all the time. Macron has just changed tack this year, and finally decided to allow the construction of new nuclear plants again, but there is no time left to build enough nuclear plants to face the electric car transition.

So if electricity consumption massively increases due to electric cars, France will have to use gas plants releasing tons of CO2.


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## Bender

I was talking in the context of France and its 50+ nuclear reactors. I don't remember the exact number but ballpark 80% of the power generation come from either nuclear or hydro ie. clean energy


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## Brisavoinée

Yeah, but it can't cope with a massive increase in electricity consumption due to electric cars. 

Also, most nuclear plants will have to close in the next 20 years, because they have reached the end of their life cycle. Problem: since there has been no planning for new nuclear power plants in the past 10 years due to the Green lobby (until just a few weeks ago when Macron finally said new nuclear plants will have to be built), all new construction will only replace older nuclear reactors that need to be closed. In fact it's not even certain the country still has the know-how and engineering to build as many reactors as are needed just to keep the current production.

The latest estimates I've seen say that even in the best scenario with the maximum possible number of new nuclear reactors built, nuclear electricity would decrease and make up only 50% of French electricity by 2050.

And these estimates don't take into account a massive increase in electricity production due to electric cars.


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## ilyan

I think you will have to resume coal mining in Rube. Your greens will have heat attack from this idea.


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## fabricofparis

It's really fascinating to me that on a forum of road enthusiasts, so many people seem unaware of the phenomenon of induced demand. I don't have an opinion on the Rouen bypass, because I don't know enough about that specific situation, but the idea that building a new road will necessarily reduce traffic elsewhere has been debunked countless times. 

As for electric cars: as with so many issues, everyone seems to want to have a clear-cut "pro" or "anti" point of view. I don't think it's that simple. There are a lot of journeys which will always require cars, and for those, electric cars are a clear improvement on ICE vehicles. But in an urban setting, most journeys shouldn't involve cars, and focusing too heavily on electric cars can impede progress on supporting other modes of transport which are less polluting, less dangerous to pedestrians, and use limited space more efficiently. Of course, it's possible to do both: Norway, for example, has managed to massively increase electric vehicle usage while also reducing the number of cars in Oslo.


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## ChrisZwolle

fabricofparis said:


> It's really fascinating to me that on a forum of road enthusiasts, so many people seem unaware of the phenomenon of induced demand. I don't have an opinion on the Rouen bypass, because I don't know enough about that specific situation, but the idea that building a new road will necessarily reduce traffic elsewhere has been debunked countless times.


I'm well aware of this phenomenon. I also know that this phenomenon is wildly exaggerated by certain media outlets and activists groups. It does exist, but its effect is limited. The effect is also outdated, because its observance coincided with a large growth of per capita travel (1970s, 1980s, 1990s). Per capita travel is at a plateau, so it doesn't drive traffic growth as much as it used to. Population growth does. And so does economic growth.

The fact that these outlets and activists repeat it over and over again doesn't make it true, nor does it debunk something. That's just feeding into a confirmation bias. Many if not most roads that are built new or are widened do not fill up to congestion level again unless it's either purposely underdesigned or population growth exceeds expectations. That's why roads continue to get built to keep pace with population growth, economic growth and economic stimulation of isolated areas.


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## Brisavoinée

fabricofparis said:


> less dangerous to pedestrians


In Paris it's actually been the opposite. The streets have never been more unsafe for pedestrians since they have started their holy crusade against cars and allowed bicycles and scooters to do as they please, not respecting the highway code (such as crossing red lights, which is authorized for bicycles by the Paris city hall itself, or riding bikes in one way streets in the opposite direction, which is again authorized by the Paris city hall), or using bikes and scooters on sidewalks.

Last year saw a record number of pedestrian accidents, despite Covid. It's due both to the jungle that the city has become with bicycles and scooters not respecting anything or anyone, and the maze of complicated bidirectional lanes that streets and avenues have become, with extremely badly designed infrastructure leading to accident (such as bus lanes in the middle of avenues dropping passengers in the middle of bicycle lanes, etc).


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## Brisavoinée

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's why roads continue to get built to keep pace with population growth


Not in France though. Case in point: Toulouse. Population in the metro area grew by a massive 35% between 1999 and 2018, but road infrastructure hasn't changed much during those 19 years. They have enlarged the ring road from 4 to 6 lanes, improved some interchanges, built perhaps 2 or 3 "urban boulevards" in the suburbs (which should have been expressways but were downgraded to "urban boulevard" to please the Greens and the NIMBYs), and that's about it.

That's the sort of "urban boulevard", which should have been an expressway. Expressways are now a complete taboo, and I don't expect any will be built in the next 20 years.









Oh, they also decreased the speed limit on the motorways, from 110 km/h to 90 km/h (supposedly because it improves traffic). The Left wants to further reduce the speed limit to 70 km/h but they were defeated in the 2020 municipal election, so for the time being it will continue to be 90 km/h, even though the Left-leaning regional newspaper of Toulouse (there's no Right-leaning newspaper in Toulouse, only a Left-leaning one, whose owner was for a long time the leader of one of France's national leftist parties) is regularly publishing articles to push the Toulouse city hall to reduce the speed limit further.









Toulouse. Et si on roulait à 70 km/h sur la rocade ?


Pour résoudre l'engorgement de la rocade toulousaine, la baisse de la vitesse à 70 km/h est une piste envisageable. A Paris, la préfecture de police doit passer à l'acte dans les mois qui viennent. Les bouchons du...




www.ladepeche.fr













Après Lyon, faut-il réduire la vitesse sur le périphérique de Toulouse ?


Après Paris, Lille, Lyon, Toulouse sera-t-elle la prochaine ville à limiter la vitesse sur son périph'? Les Verts réclament cette mesure tandis qu'à la préfecture une étude est en cours.




www.ladepeche.fr





Most damaging is what happened to the D980 expressway, which was planned in the 1990s as a 2nd ring to alleviate traffic on Toulouse's main ring road:









In the 2000s it was never completed because the Socialist departmental council, which manages those departmental roads, refused to complete it (since they were allied with the Greens to run the Haute-Garonne department), and so that expressway becomes this after a few kilometers:









And to make it impossible to transform that section into an expressway, they built a middle high school along that section, so it is now impossible to turn it into an expressway because the school has direct access on that avenue and is too close to it. The departments in France manage the buildings of middle high school, so they are the ones responsible for building them.

That's the middle high school under construction, making it impossible to transform this section into an expressway:









"The department is building a new middle high school in Toulouse St Simon".


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## fabricofparis

Brisavoinée said:


> The streets have never been more unsafe for pedestrians


The statistics don't seem to support that assertion. Bicycles are nowhere near as dangerous as cars.

In particular, this claim:


Brisavoinée said:


> Last year saw a record number of pedestrian accidents


doesn't seem to be supported by the statistics for road accidents in Paris. Road deaths did increase in 2020 (from 34 to 45), but the number of pedestrians killed actually went down, from 16 to 15.


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## Brisavoinée

^^That's not what was reported by the media. I'm sorry but I prefer to trust large circulation media rather than an online activist with an agenda. Only last month some municipal councilors were reporting the Paris city hall has had to pay a record amount of indemnities last year to victims of road accidents in Paris (mostly pedestrians). But some prefer to turn a blind eye due to their ideology...

PS: The stats you posted contradict your own post. 😂 It says in 2020, despite lockdowns due to Covid-19, the number of people killed in the streets of the City of Paris actually increased! Brilliant achievement.

The regional media have countless articles about it:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1411643449271537664


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## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> Many if not most roads that are built new or are widened do not fill up to congestion level again unless it's either purposely underdesigned or population growth exceeds expectations.


the induced demand myth means that they often are purposely undersigned:

Much needed new road fills up quickly = terrible induced demand, let's delay the next one several years as roads are bad, and build it to a lower standard to try and dissuade people from using it.

Next new road fills up because it's underbuilt and there's a load of suppressed demand (made worse by the wait) that it allows to be met = induced demand is worse than we thought, we must double down on our strategy of building new roads in a too little too late fashion in an attempt to stop these new roads filling up so quickly!

Repeat ad nausium the cycle of stupidity until someone with a brain points out that they are full because they don't have much capacity and so don't need much traffic to fill up, and because they are playing catch up with demand rather than inducing it.


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## fabricofparis

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm well aware of this phenomenon. I also know that this phenomenon is wildly exaggerated by certain media outlets and activists groups. It does exist, but its effect is limited. The effect is also outdated, because its observance coincided with a large growth of per capita travel (1970s, 1980s, 1990s). Per capita travel is at a plateau, so it doesn't drive traffic growth as much as it used to. Population growth does. And so does economic growth.
> 
> The fact that these outlets and activists repeat it over and over again doesn't make it true, nor does it debunk something. That's just feeding into a confirmation bias. Many if not most roads that are built new or are widened do not fill up to congestion level again unless it's either purposely underdesigned or population growth exceeds expectations. That's why roads continue to get built to keep pace with population growth, economic growth and economic stimulation of isolated areas.


I want to make it clear that I'm not opposed to road building, per se. What I take issue with is the assertion that a new road will necessarily reduce traffic elsewhere. If you want to build a new bypass and reduce city-centre traffic, couple it with active measures to reduce the space for cars in the city centre. Maybe that's the kind of compromise that can unite both sides.



sotonsi said:


> they don't have much capacity


That's an interesting claim in most of our big cities, given how much of our land is devoted to roads. Cities that have tried to meet all transport demand with roads have turned into unliveable, unwalkable places. In many cases it would be better to meet that demand with other forms of transport.


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## fabricofparis

Brisavoinée said:


> ^^That's not what was reported by the media. I'm sorry but I prefer to trust large circulation media rather than an online activist with an agenda. Only last month some municipal councilors were reporting the Paris city hall has had to pay a record amount of indemnities last year to victims of road accidents in Paris (mostly pedestrians). But some prefer to turn a blind eye due to their ideology...
> 
> PS: The stats you posted contradict your own post. 😂 It says in 2020, despite lockdowns due to Covid-19, the number of people killed in the streets of the City of Paris actually increased! Brilliant achievement.
> 
> The regional media have countless articles about it:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1411643449271537664


"An online activist with an agenda". The links I posted were literally official statistics. And no, the stats don't contradict my own post. It's right there: "Road deaths did increase in 2020 (from 34 to 45), but the number of pedestrians killed actually went down, from 16 to 15."


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## Brisavoinée

fabricofparis said:


> Cities that have tried to meet all transport demand with roads have turned into unliveable, unwalkable places. In many cases it would be better to meet that demand with other forms of transport.


Los Angeles is a far more liveable place than Paris. I have lived in both, and I can guarantee you the quality of life is higher in Los Angeles. You're confusing "walkable" and "liveable". Besides, even in LA you can walk (on beaches, on pedestrian streets, in malls, in the mountains, it's not like there's a lack of choice!).


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## sponge_bob

The sooner they ignore Paris and build the A104 Francelienne out fully the better. The traffic _trying_ to get round Paris is brutal. Never seen a ring as bad as it.


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## sotonsi

fabricofparis said:


> That's an interesting claim in most of our big cities, given how much of our land is devoted to roads.


landtake is not the same as capacity.

And I wasn't necessarily talking large urban areas (in part as there's almost no road building there to get onto later schemes where you deliberately build the road really bad as induced demand is wrongly blamed for the congestion of previous routes). It's more suburbia/small cities where roads are being built based on this nonsense idea of building stuff deliberately bad to stop induced demand that wasn't going to happen anyway.

The large urban areas build bad to deliberately not meet demand so that people are forced into using other modes (which I agree are better for the city - the issue is the making roads bad to force people to use other modes) - that's a different, though similar, issue.


> Cities that have tried to meet all transport demand with roads


ah, we're talking about fictional places! It makes sense - because you are an absolutist ideologue, the straw man you have to defeat is too. No room for nuance and balancing various needs here, just dogma.


> have turned into unliveable, unwalkable places. In many cases it would be better to meet that demand with other forms of transport.


Congested urban boulevards of the sort proposed and being built by those (understandably) trying to remove their 60s urban expressways now through-traffic can bypass the urban area not only take up as much land for lower capacity as the previous road but typically create a bigger barrier of unwalkable and unpleasantness (especially vs sunken highways. Less so elevated, but that is still better than at-grade for walkability) due to being at-grade traffic signal infested messes.


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## g.spinoza

fabricofparis said:


> "An online activist with an agenda". The links I posted were literally official statistics. And no, the stats don't contradict my own post. It's right there: "Road deaths did increase in 2020 (from 34 to 45), but the number of pedestrians killed actually went down, from 16 to 15."


Don't argue with him. It's not worthy of any (sane) man's time.


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## Brisavoinée

sponge_bob said:


> The sooner they ignore Paris and build the A104 Francelienne out fully the better. The traffic _trying_ to get round Paris is brutal. Never seen a ring as bad as it.


The A104 will never be fully completed. And it has nothing to do with the Paris city hall (they have no power whatsoever over the A104). The reason it will never been completed is both due to the anti-automobile climate generated by the Left (which makes even the Right, which is currently ruling the Paris Region, reluctant to support new road infrastructure), pressure by NIMBYs (especially in the western suburbs of Paris), and the cost of the project (splitting the sections that are merged with other motorways, such as the A6/A104 joint section near Evry, in particular).

This is the result of crappy planning (only 4 lanes instead of 8; joint sections, such as A6/A104, in the 1990s, to save money and due to lack of vision at the time) and cultural wars (the automobile now presented as evil by most of the Left, and even part of the Right).


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## sotonsi

sponge_bob said:


> The sooner they ignore Paris and build the A104 Francelienne out fully the better. The traffic _trying_ to get round Paris is brutal. Never seen a ring as bad as it.


ah, but building it as a completed and useful high capacity freeway will mean a lot more demand for it. Have to leave it with gaps and the like to stop demand being 'induced'! ;P


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## sponge_bob

It is truly hellish trying to get around Paris, as much as it is to get through it.


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## ChrisZwolle

I came across this gem in the Alpes-Maritimes: the suspension bridge of Saint-Léger over the Gorges de Roudoule. The bridge was built in 1899. It's on a dead-end road system north of Puget-Théniers, about 40 kilometers northwest of Nice.

Location: OpenStreetMap


Le pont suspendu de St-Léger sur la Roudoule 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


Le pont suspendu de St-Léger sur la Roudoule 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


Le pont suspendu de St-Léger sur la Roudoule 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


Le pont suspendu de St-Léger sur la Roudoule 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


Le pont suspendu de St-Léger sur la Roudoule 11 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Brisavoinée

An article about the disastrous redesigning of Rue de Rivoli by the Green extremists ruling the City of Paris. Since they came to power in 2001, Rue de Rivoli, the main East-West axis on the Right Bank of Paris, has always been the pet project of the Socialist-Extreme Green-Communist coalition, and a symbol of their desire to eradicate cars from Paris.

The latest redesigning is reserving 4 lanes for bicycles, and leaving just one lane for taxi drivers, delivery vehicles, buses, and resident cars (cars owned by non residents of the area cannot use Rue de Rivoli anymore). Ride-sharing services such as Uber are also forbidden from using Rue de Rivoli now (that's because the lobby of official taxi drivers is well connected with the Paris city hall, and managed to have ride-sharing services banned on that street).

Stores, hotels, and local residents complain the street has become a permanent traffic jam from early in the morning till late at night, while the bicyle lanes are mostly empty. Reservations in the hotels lining the avenue have dropped. The redesigning of the street is largely opposed, says the article, but there's little chance it will change in the near future, because the city is ruled by ideologues who don't care about consequences (and don't need the votes of those using the street to remain in power).









Rue de Rivoli : la rue qui fait l'unanimité contre la Mairie de Paris


Plan de circulation rue de Rivoli. Les professionnels du tourisme excédés. Enquete de PARISMARAIS sur la rue des bouchons.




www.parismarais.com






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473313233381515271
Supporters of the Paris city hall always come with old pictures of Rue de Rivoli from the 1950s or 1960s when the Périphérique ring road didn't exist yet.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1472182450658938887


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## ChrisZwolle

Sanef has announced that A14-A13 from Paris to Caen will become an entirely free-flow toll road by 2024, all toll booths will be replaced with electronic tolling systems. This will be the first motorway in France with all-electronic tolling, so far it has only been tested at a few unimportant exits ramps (to avoid potential revenue loss due to non-paying customers).

The entire 210 kilometer route will become 'Flux Libre'.

A14-A13 was chosen because it is detached from other toll roads in France and it has a high volume of traffic. (And it wouldn't surprise me that they've chosen this route because it has a lot less foreign motorists than most other toll roads).

Toll can be paid:

with the existing télépéage options: nothing will change for users with a transponder. It will work at 130 km/h
by setting up an account and linking the license plate
by paying after usage (several days they say), either online or by phone.

More info: Lancement du projet Autoroute en flux libre Paris-Normandie (also see the PDF on that page).


----------



## AttikoMetro

ChrisZwolle said:


> Sanef has announced that A14-A13 from Paris to Caen will become an entirely free-flow toll road by 2024, all toll booths will be replaced with electronic tolling systems. This will be the first motorway in France with all-electronic tolling, so far it has only been tested at a few unimportant exits ramps (to avoid potential revenue loss due to non-paying customers).
> 
> The entire 210 kilometer route will become 'Flux Libre'.
> 
> A14-A13 was chosen because it is detached from other toll roads in France and it has a high volume of traffic. (And it wouldn't surprise me that they've chosen this route because it has a lot less foreign motorists than most other toll roads).
> 
> Toll can be paid:
> 
> with the existing télépéage options: nothing will change for users with a transponder. It will work at 130 km/h
> by setting up an account and linking the license plate
> by paying after usage (several days they say), either online or by phone.
> 
> More info: Lancement du projet Autoroute en flux libre Paris-Normandie (also see the PDF on that page).


Free flow is becoming more and more popular it seems. Apart from Portugal, Russia and now France, which countries in Europe have adopted it to some extent?


----------



## sotonsi

There's some in the UK: Tyne Tunnel, Mersey Gateway, Dartford Crossing, and Durham and London Congestion Charges (other London stuff like ULEZ is done in the same way).


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## fabricofparis

Norway has some too - the Bergen congestion charge was charged to me by the car hire company when I was there.


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## g.spinoza

AttikoMetro said:


> Free flow is becoming more and more popular it seems. Apart from Portugal, Russia and now France, which countries in Europe have adopted it to some extent?


Italy at A36 and Milan's congestion charge.


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## Brisavoinée

View from the air. Can't think of a crazier situation in any other city. Purposeful non-use of city land detrimental to everybody.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473800932496453634


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## Cookiefabric

Can you explain a little more? _"Je Ne pas d'francaise - merci"_

All I see here is just another day in the city (with the expection that public transport has to join the same lane as regular traffic)


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## ChrisZwolle

Apparently they turned a 4 lane road into a 1 lane road with the rest reserved as an oversized bicycle path.


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## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> Apparently they turned a 4 lane road into a 1 lane road with the rest reserved as an oversized bicycle path.


The issue isn't the cycle path (which only takes up one lane) but park - hedge - path - hedge - path - cycle lane. Why so many places to walk? There's three places to walk right next to each other.


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## MichiH

sotonsi said:


> The issue isn't the cycle path (which only takes up one lane) but park - hedge - path - hedge - path - cycle lane. Why so many places to walk? There's three places to walk right next to each other.


To ease keeping the distance due to covid regulations?


----------



## Brisavoinée

sotonsi said:


> The issue isn't the cycle path (which only takes up one lane) but park - hedge - path - hedge - path - cycle lane. Why so many places to walk? There's three places to walk right next to each other.


Space for pedestrians was absolutely not increased. I think you're confusing the fun fair inside the Tuileries Gardens (itself a heritage scandal, but that's another issue) with a pedestrian alley. It wasn't taken from the street, but from the Tuileries Gardens.

On Rue de Rivoli, we now have 3 lanes for bicycles, mostly unused and empty, and one lane for all motor traffic. Sidewalks were not enlarged. Pollution is now higher than before due to the permanent traffic jam.

Closer view (the people here are not walking on a pedestrian path, they are walking on one of the bicycle lanes, because these bicycle lanes are now so large they are mostly empty, which is in itself dangerous as crazy cyclists can come anytime, and they don't respect pedestrians). The two motorbikes are also using the central bike lane, because it's empty, which they are not supposed to do (but there is very little police in the city, nobody really checks if you respect traffic rules or not).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473396280940445696


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## fabricofparis

sotonsi said:


> The issue isn't the cycle path (which only takes up one lane) but park - hedge - path - hedge - path - cycle lane. Why so many places to walk? There's three places to walk right next to each other.


As someone who visits the rue de Rivoli quite often, I actually don't think there's enough space for pedestrians. I think some of the space gained from closing the road to car traffic should have been used to widen the sidewalks. The last few times I've been there at the weekend - especially further east - it's been hard to walk at more than a snail's pace because of the crowds. On a busy shopping street, a sidewalk isn't just a place to walk - it's a place to browse windows, to queue for shops, to wait for the bus...

And who thinks of a park primarily as a place to walk? A park is a place to get fresh air, to relax with a newspaper/book, to have a picnic, to socialise, to take photos... It's like saying there's no point putting a road next to a car park because that makes two places for cars.


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## Stuu

I am firmly on the side of restricting cars in city centres and providing cycling and pedestrian infrastructure. Rue de Rivoli used to look like this, with a perfectly sensible bike lane, vehicle lanes and a bus lane. 










Replacing the car lanes with another bike lane _and_ getting rid of the bus lanes is bizarre


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## Brisavoinée

^^It's their ideology. And they are unchallenged, for two reasons: a- the bizarre voting system with swing arrondissements (like US presidential elections) that makes them almost certain to win all municipal elections for the next 30 years or more (due to the peculiar sociology of the two key swing arrondissements, the 14th and 12th arrondissements), so they have no incentive to improve their management of the city. And b- the French State for some very bizarre reasons has given up on Paris, its capital city. The police prefect, state civil servant would could end all these schemes overnight if he wanted to, has stopped reacting against their crazy town planning for the past 10 years, under orders of the government. It's been worse under Macron. Macron was afraid to provoke the mayor.

For a long time there was a fear to anger the mayor of Paris, who was a possible presidential contender who could defeat the president in polls. Now she's finally running for president, and her campaign is a complete disaster (she would get only 3% of votes say pollsters, the most humiliating figure ever for the Socialist Party), so we'll see whether after that humiliating presidential campaign the president will finally dare to oppose the mayor, now that she's not a threat anymore and all her political capital has vanished.

I think one big issue is the French State is essentially run by the president, and the president lives in an ivory tower inside the Elysée Palace, cut from the rest of the world and not really aware of what's going on outside his palace. Macron probably hasn't walked in the streets of Paris since 2016, so he sees the city only behind the tinted glasses of his official limousine. He probably doesn't realize how the city has changed for the worse in the past 5 years.


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## Cookiefabric

Assassination of the president of France is a huge trophy for rebels. I can completely understand the strict recommendation to stay inside for the sake of his safety.

However, I do agree with the fact that the president lost a sense of what's going on outside that bubble.


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## Brisavoinée

Even left-wing journalists are now criticizing the Paris city hall. The original tweeter said "Currently stuck in bus 72 on Rue de Rivoli while there is no one on the 4 bicycles lanes".


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475183867367772160


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## Brisavoinée

On channel 24 this evening: "A75 is probably the last motorway that will be built in France".


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## MichiH

Brisavoinée said:


> On channel 24 this evening: "A75 is probably the last motorway that will be built in France".


I guess you mean A7*9*.


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## Brisavoinée

No. A75. It was a documentary about the construction of A75.









Sur RMC Découverte, l’A75, l’autre autoroute du Soleil


Retour sur la construction sur trois décennies de l’artère longue de 335 km reliant Clermont-Ferrand à Béziers.




www.lemonde.fr


----------



## Eulanthe

Brisavoinée said:


> On channel 24 this evening: "A75 is probably the last motorway that will be built in France".


In fairness, what's actually missing in terms of major motorways? There's a need for Troyes-Auxerre-Bourges, Limoges-Poitiers, Rennes-Brest and Nevers-Vichy. Oh, and Basel-Belfort to the A5.


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## ChrisZwolle

Rennes - Brest is already a four lane _voie express. _It's a waste of money to upgrade it to true autoroute standards (130 km/h design speed). That would cost a lot of money while bring little benefit. 

There used to be plans for a western bypass of Lyon. All the bypasses of this city are to the east. 

A68 Toulouse - Castres is moving towards construction. 

A51 still has a missing link, but it won't do much to reduce travel time from Lyon to Nice, as A51 curves back to the southwest. 

A32 was planned as a regional bypass of the Nancy - Metz - Thionville urban corridor. But a tolled version won't attract much traffic from toll-free A31. 

A28 around the east side of Rouen is still planned. Paris could do with a higher standard outer beltway (both on the west side and a proper N104 upgrade). 

There is also a mismatch of roads at the German border near Strasbourg. The Strasbourg ring road (N353) continues as a two-lane road in Germany while the high-standard German B28 ends at the city street network of Strasbourg. 

A/N154 is still planned as a concession to link Rouen to Orléans. 

N88 is still incomplete as a major corridor from Lyon to Toulouse.


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## MichiH

^^ exactly. That means, the "last motorway" statement is plain wrong.


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## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> Rennes - Brest is already a four lane _voie express. _It's a waste of money to upgrade it to true autoroute standards (130 km/h design speed). That would cost a lot of money while bring little benefit.


see also the route south from Nevers (not yet finished), Nantes-Brest, the RCEA (again, incomplete). But then again, the A79 is doing an upgrade of VE to autoroute, and there's been other similar things (eg the A21 extension) where a VE has had minor upgrades and been given Autoroute status - not including stuff like the N10->A63 where they also widened the road.

But those VEs might not be too substandard (if at all). The Breton ones date from a long time ago, though one of the factors for them being VEs was because they were built by the state as toll free rural roads so perhaps there's quite a lot that could be renumbered relatively easily and only haven't as it wasn't continuous.

And can't Autoroutes be lower speed limit like is often the case in urban areas? They could, in theory, have the Breton routes as 110km/h with minor safety upgrades that ought to be done anyway. Plus the redesignation doesn't have to be continuous - there's all sorts of gaps in the Autoroute network where it's plugged with a VE - a few near Marseille, the A35 south of Strasbourg, Chambers, Avranches, etc: the A8x routes in Brittany can have gaps where upgrading would be difficult.


> A51 still has a missing link, but it won't do much to reduce travel time from Lyon to Nice, as A51 curves back to the southwest.


Surely it's about Grenoble and Geneve to the Med, providing relief for the A7 south of Valence for traffic coming from further east?

As seen by the change in E numbers from the 1975 draft to the 1985 polishing of the grid system. The '75 E21 was Metz-Macon-Geneva-Grenoble-Valence-Marselles, whereas in '85 the E21 was culled south of Geneva with the E712 covering Geneva-Grenoble-Marselles via the A51 corridor (and the leftover bits of E21 assigned the E713 and E714 numbers).


----------



## Brisavoinée

Eulanthe said:


> In fairness, what's actually missing in terms of major motorways? There's a need for Troyes-Auxerre-Bourges, Limoges-Poitiers, Rennes-Brest and Nevers-Vichy. Oh, and Basel-Belfort to the A5.


The big one missing is the A68 (Toulouse-Lyon), only the beginnings of which have been built. That's the 2nd and 4th largest metro areas of France, and they are inexplicably not linked by a motorway link yet. This is frankly third-world. And the rugged terrain of the Massif Central is not an excuse anymore considering what they've done in Spain for example.

Then there's the A51 (Marseille-Grenoble), which was never completed (it stupidly finishes in the middle of nowhere in the Alps because the minister in charge of roads at the time in the 1990s wanted to make big cuts in French investment in order for France to reach the Maastricht criteria, and that stupid minister said instead of completing the A51 motorway they would simply enlarge the current national highway to 2+1 lanes, which of course they never did).

There were plans also for a Grenoble-Nice motorway, to alleviate traffic in the Rhône valley and in Provence, but it was never built.

Then there is also the Toulouse-Barcelona motorway which terminates in the middle of nowhere in the Pyrénées, again due to lack of vision (plus the Midi-Pyrénées region, led by the Socialists, ditching road investment in favor of train investment, despite the fact train ridership in such a low density region as Midi-Pyrénées is very low and not profitable). As a result there remains a big gap between Tarascon-sur-Ariège and Berga (the Spaniards were quite eager to complete it, but they have now stopped prolonging the motorway beyond Berga because the French are just dragging their feet). This motorway would have alleviated traffic at the Perthus crossing (A9), which is close to saturation point.

Then there is also the central crossing of the Pyrénées (Toulouse-Madrid motorway) which the French kept delaying in the 1990s and 2000s, to the anoyance of the Spaniards, who have now given up.

The Nice-Turin motorway (via a new tunnel at Tende) was also planned but never built.

And there are quite a few other examples.

In French Guiana the people are still waiting for the Cayenne-Kourou motorway. After the big civil unrest in 2017, when the people even besieged the prefecture, the French State finally conceded and promised to build the first half of that motorway (from Cayenne to half-way to Kourou), but work has not started yet...



http://www.guyane.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/dossier_concertation_rn1_balata-rd51_editos.pdf


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## Brisavoinée

^^Note that the ministry in charge of building (and maintaining) roads in France is not the Ministry of Infrastructure, as used to be the case in the past when all the network was built, but it is now the so-called Ministry for the Ecological and Solidary Transition. That tells you everything you need to know.


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## Stuu

I wonder if this will end up like the UK where multi-lane grade separated roads are built but they aren't called motorways? France already builds D-roads to very similar standards to autoroutes e.g. Rennes-Angers won't look very different to an autoroute when finished


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## sotonsi

Stuu said:


> I wonder if this will end up like the UK where multi-lane grade separated roads are built but they aren't called motorways? France already builds D-roads to very similar standards to autoroutes e.g. Rennes-Angers won't look very different to an autoroute when finished


France does it with N roads too!

Wegenwiki has it that there's about 1000km more expressway-grade roads in France than in the UK - which is quite a big difference given we're looking at ~3000km vs ~4000km.

And if you compare Michelin maps - a lot of the UK examples that would be typically considered as counting are actually not of a high enough standard to be mapped as expressways beyond short bits, unlike the French ones. And the French ones have restrictions on usage as default rather than rarely as is the case in the UK.


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## Stuu

sotonsi said:


> France does it with N roads too!


Sort of, but that's not really what I meant, I was thinking of things like the Huntingdon bypass or Lower Thames Crossing which are blatantly motorways but refuse to name them as such to avoid scaring the horses or whatever the reason is


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## sponge_bob

Eulanthe said:


> There's a need for Troyes-Auxerre-Bourges, Limoges-Poitiers, Rennes-Brest and Nevers-Vichy. Oh, and Basel-Belfort to the A5.


Rennes-Brest is currently under construction as an N Road...most of it is built or under active construction already as ..I assume..a Voie Expres.

France has caught the English disease of building something like a motorway but avoiding calling it a motorway to placate the econutters.


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## ChrisZwolle

N12 links Rennes to Brest as a four lane voie express, it was completed in 1987.

However N164 is another east-west route under development across the interior of Bretagne. It was originally planned to be a lower standard three lane road but they later decided on a four lane expressway similar to N12 and N165 across Bretagne. N164 is still substantially incomplete.


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## sponge_bob

I mean the N164 of course. Even the D768 branching off that N164 is a partial Express road. The D Road from Rennes to St Malo is more or less full motorway standard..

I don't think there will be much left to do by 2025 and no single stretch of S2 on the remaining unimproved N164 will be more than 10km long.

It is worth noting that D2 express road upgrades in France and the UK are rather similar. Some are almost motorway standard when there is a bit of money around and some are brutal, built as a 'must do something' when money was tight. They are not a uniform experience like an Autoroute or Motorway. 

In general they are better when built after 1990.


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## Cookiefabric

2x2 free flow Voie Express with 110 km/h limit is still better then nothing (giving example: the N59 Voie Express drivings smooth -- while the D1059 is very disappointing)


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## sponge_bob

I have been on older Voie Express efforts where special speed limits applied, often 90kph. But any VE is better than an S2 creaking through some jammed up village.

It is a shame that the public discourse in France nowadays forces authorities to upgrade existing alignments piecemeal and at considerable cost per km though, the French were once proud of doing the right thing when it came to a functional Autoroute network and now they are often forced into stealth upgrades of N Roads instead. 

If I were to identify missing links I would think 2 proper bypasses of Paris ...one being finishing the grand contournement, a full bypass of Lyons. Grenoble to Marseilles and St Etienne to Toulouse are the key missing links in the Autoroute network. If they were done then France could realistically think of not building any more Autoroutes. Plenty of VE needed even then.


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## AttikoMetro

sponge_bob said:


> I have been on older Voie Express efforts where special speed limits applied, often 90kph. But any VE is better than an S2 creaking through some jammed up village.
> 
> It is a shame that the public discourse in France nowadays forces authorities to upgrade existing alignments piecemeal and at considerable cost per km though, the French were once proud of doing the right thing when it came to a functional Autoroute network and now they are often forced into stealth upgrades of N Roads instead.
> 
> If I were to identify missing links I would think 2 proper bypasses of Paris ...one being finishing the grand contournement, a full bypass of Lyons. Grenoble to Marseilles and St Etienne to Toulouse are the key missing links in the Autoroute network. If they were done then France could realistically think of not building any more Autoroutes. Plenty of VE needed even then.


don't forget the need for an A63 relief road between Orange and Hendaye .


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## sponge_bob

AttikoMetro said:


> don't forget the need for an A63 relief road between Orange and Hendaye .


Forgive me if I was not as complete as I could have been.


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## ChrisZwolle

The weak point of the French autoroute system is the lack of high-speed bypasses of major cities. The French autoroute system typically has a very good traffic flow: 130 km/h, almost no congestion (except summer weekends). But when you approach a major city there are no good bypasses for through traffic and you have to travel across congested urban motorways or expressways with a 90 km/h speed limit. This is the case in Paris, Lyon, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Lorraine and until recently, Strasbourg. The Montpellier bypass has a very high standard but is only 110 km/h while it could easily be 130 km/h.


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## sponge_bob

geogregor said:


> Spain in the past) Once people spend their own cash suddenly things slow down. I wonder why


Actually Spain is using its own money to gap fill nowadays, their A12 and A11 and A23 are chugging away ...even if slowly compared to pre 2010 levels of construction. Like France Spain is reduced to gap filling not building a network out. 



> Also, once people gat richer they start valuing their properties and "quality of life" a bit more than before. There is more litigation and protest. It is natural thing.


This is true, Poland was poor and 'needed the work' 10 years ago but with full employment nowadays the attitude might change seeing as you are importing Ukrainians to build your roads nowadays. But the big problem is professional green objectors not your ordinary decent Nimby along the route. 



> France has impressive motorway network, there is no chance for massive construction surge like in Poland. And there is no need for it.


We both agree on that much.


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## Brisavoinée

christos-greece said:


> This its not the number one route from Digne to Nice.


The picture I posted is exactly here:









How is this not the main route? 🤷‍♂️



christos-greece said:


> 35 km to Nice:
> Στιγμιότυπο οθόνης (41) by Chriis Greek, on Flickr


I know valleys in Spain that look exactly like this one and that have a motorway. For example the new motorway between Huesca and Sabiñanigo runs exactly along such a valley north of Huesca. I drove on it in between lockdowns last year. It's just completed (and really great). Something France is afraid of doing.


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## Brisavoinée

geogregor said:


> countries which (like France) fill some "nice to have" gaps.


That's a very metropolitan-centric point of view. Perhaps from Paris or London these would be "nice to have" links, but I come from Midi-Pyrénées and for people down there it's not just some nice new link on the network that would be nice to have in the best of worlds. It's things people have been waiting for decades and which are still not there, like in 2021 still no complete Toulouse-Auch motorway (because the regional council has been under-financing this motorway due to their train fetish since the 1990s), and still no Toulouse-Rodez motorway (itself part of the Toulouse-Lyon motorway that is still not there).

The motorway western bypass of Albi is also going nowhere, and this is pretty annoying for people on the ground (Albi's eastern inner bypass was never meant to be part of the Toulouse-Lyon motorway and is already congested, as well as being too close to residential areas).

The upper valleys of Ariège (as well as Andorra) are also still waiting for the completion of the Toulouse-Barcelona motorway. You drive nice until Tarascon, and then suddenly it's more than 1 hour and a half lost on small winding roads, often impassable in winter, on what's a major European axis (Barcelona, 5.5 million inhabitants, Toulouse, 1.5 million inhabitants, two of the biggest economies of Southern Europe). 

More recently for personal reasons I've become accustomed to the Paris-Alençon route (N12, which is the former royal road from Paris to Rennes and Brittany, before in the 1850s the bourgeois elites of Le Mans successfully lobbied the French Parliament to have the Paris-Brittany rail road run through Le Mans and not Alençon, which is why the Paris-Brittany motorway in the 1970s was built via Le Mans and not along the old royal road to Brittany, leaving Alençon totally isolated). People in Alençon and Southern Normandy have been waiting for their motorway connection to Paris for 30 years, only half of it has been built, but the French State has stalled since the 2000s and the departmental council of Orne is very annoyed with it. They want the French State to transfer to them the N12 so they can transform it into a motorway, since the French State is dragging its feet.

Seen from Paris, maybe this looks like a "nice to have" thing that we can live without, but for people in Alençon and Southern Normandy it's vital stuff. It currently takes 2 and a half hours to reach Paris, the only large city close to Alençon, when it could take just 1 and a half hour with a full motorway. Alençon is bleeding inhabitants as young people are leaving, because it's impractical to commute to Paris for work, too long to get there on the N12 (whereas lots of people from Le Mans commute to Paris for work). Crossing Dreux in particular can be quite horrendous, with traffic lights on the N12 and long traffic jams. The French State has been promising the motorway bypass of Dreux for years, but nothing ever comes.


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## ChrisZwolle

Brisavoinée said:


> Crossing Dreux in particular can be quite horrendous, with traffic lights on the N12 and long traffic jams. The French State has been promising the motorway bypass of Dreux for years, but nothing ever comes.


Just west of Dreux, N12 passes through a valley and a village called Saint-Rémy-sur-Avre. I passed through there in August. There was a traffic jam, seemingly due to a poorly timed traffic signal. A high-speed bypass would help a lot there.


N12 Nonancourt - Dreux 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Brisavoinée

ChrisZwolle said:


> A high-speed bypass would help a lot there.


It's been promised for years. Don't know whether I'll ever see it...

The last time I was on N12, a truck fell over the entire length of the road between Verneuil-sur-Avre and Mortagne-au-Perche at 8am. Entire road closed. We had to take small countryside roads to get back on the N12 after the cut section. We lost 1 hour.

The motorway to Le Mans, in comparison, feels so modern and fast...


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## Bender

geogregor said:


> France has impressive motorway network


I don't see what exactly is impressive. Its density or its condition?
What's impressive is how expensive it is.


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## geogregor

Bender said:


> I don't see what exactly is impressive. Its density or its condition?


Both, coverage of the country population centers as well as condition. I hope you are not trying to imply that France has poor motorway network.



> What's impressive is how expensive it is.


Yes, it is expensive, I never said it is not.

As I said, there are still missing links which would be useful but there are not that many of them. Do you guys seriously expect motorway to any mid-sized town or every mountain valley?



Brisavoinée said:


> That's a very metropolitan-centric point of view. Perhaps from Paris or London these would be "nice to have" links, but I come from Midi-Pyrénées and for people down there it


I have nothing to do with Paris, was there only once in my life, changing trains on my way from Spain. As for Midi-Pyrénées, those are not exactly densely populated regions, aren't they?

The idea that places like Pyrenees or Massif Central, or any other rural region, will be criss-crossed by multiple motorways, juts so everyone lives close to one, is simply unrealistic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

geogregor said:


> Do you guys seriously expect motorway to any mid-sized town


This seems to be the policy of many departmental governments. Not a full motorway, but a 110 km/h four lane _voie express. _Some departments are quite willing to build these roads to enhance regional economies. 

There are still fairly large areas of France that are far from motorways. Good infrastructure also helps reduce the increasing wealth and development gap between large urban areas and the more rural parts of France. Rural and small size city economies are much more dependent on accessibility by road than the inner cities of Paris or Lyon. 

The days of one industry dominating employment in one town won't come back, but light industry needs accessibility to be competitive on the market. The depopulation of rural and small town France is quite a concerning trend.


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## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> The depopulation of rural and small town France is quite a concerning trend.


And it is not going to be stopped by building fast roads. Did massive Spanish road building program stopped depopulation of the interior?

It will continues, unless in the new post pandemic world more people are happy to live in such places and work completely remotely. That might be the only chance for reversing the trend, but even that will probably apply to selected places only.


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## ChrisZwolle

geogregor said:


> And it is not going to be stopped by building fast roads. Did massive Spanish road building program stopped depopulation of the interior?


The Spanish depopulation is the strongest in areas with no or limited motorway access. Areas like Teruel or Cuenca. However these areas are much more sparsely populated than rural France, so the justification of a motorway or expressway is different. French rural towns tend to be larger. For example, the recently completed Rennes - Redon expressway. Or the RCEA projects.

Road building to enhance rural / peripheral economies is a thing almost everywhere in Europe. One of the most extreme examples is Norway where they build undersea tunnels to islands with population of a few hundred.


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## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> Road building to enhance rural / peripheral economies is a thing almost everywhere in Europe.


Sure, but road building/upgrading doesn't automatically mean brand new shiny motorway, especially in sparsely populated regions which are loosing population as we speak. 

Western Europe is rapidly ageing, the idea that we will massively expand motorway networks is bonkers. Most new investment will for obvious reasons go towards care and medical services, then further improvements in digital infrastructure (which is often lacking). As for road investment, it will probably make more sense to invest in congestion reducing schemes on the already existing corridors rather than in new links in sparsely populated regions.

I know this is section of forum dominated by road geek (I'm one, up to a degree) but let's keep real. Western Europe has largely finished core motorway network. Yes, there are still gaps which need to be filled here and there. But it is not the same with country like Poland. Yes it is building as mad (which impresses sponge_bob) but only because it is catching up with half of century of neglect. 

France (or Spain or Germany or any other Western country) will never build at similar pace. Ever. 

I'm not against road building. But we will not replicate the surge building some countries had in 1960s or 70s and others in 80s or 90s. Those times are not coming back. For various reasons (including demography and technology) there are different investment priorities. No amount of moaning and blaming "ecomentalists" is going to change that. Anyway, in most countries it is the treasury which is the most skeptical about large investment in roads (or transport infrastructure in general)



> One of the most extreme examples is Norway where they build undersea tunnels to islands with population of a few hundred.


Norway is extreme and atypical example. First, and most important, they have vast amount of oil and gas wealth to spend. Second, many of the places they are linking are really, really inaccessible, it is not that they just don't have motorway nearby. Third, they are not actually building motorways as there is no need for them (like in most rural regions all over Europe, including France). Forth, there is valid question how far does it really make sense to invest in those remote links. If they had limited funds and had to do proper cost/benefit analysis (like normal countries have to do) I wonder how many of those projects had chance to go ahead.


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## PovilD

Here in Lithuania we also have programmes for gravel roads, since more remote areas are still accessible only via gravel road and there is a will to surface them with asphalt. I kinda have mixed feelings when I find Lithuanian core road network not satisfactory (especially with ruts on surface and not very safe junctions at times, chaotic signage at times too). There could be asphalt roads to touristy places, but not random villages. I have doubts if sparsely populated areas currently has chances to maintain populations as it was in the 1990s even if there is asphalt.

My guess, and it was likely scenario that politics were involved, when parties got into government mostly via more rural people votes (not largest cities). Now there are parties that won thanks to city votes, and new programme involves more attention to core network, although I still find it could be better (ok, maybe lack of funds has to do with it, but I feel it lacks a little bit professionalism too, we will see how it will go to 2035).

I think what we can do (unless we have Poland and few other CEE countries) here in Western Europe is to maintain existing infrastructure to become safer and usable in multiple means. Completely new core roads will probably be minority of projects in the future. It is already visible here in Lithuania, when we don't see almost any new bypass projects although few could be built for better access between larger cities.

I agree ageing is an issue probably everywhere in Europe. Now most politics and regulations may involve around health, probably health no one narrative probably to continue from what we have now, these restrictions on public life may not be an end just now.


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## ChrisZwolle

geogregor said:


> Western Europe is rapidly ageing, the idea that we will massively expand motorway networks is bonkers.





geogregor said:


> I know this is section of forum dominated by road geek (I'm one, up to a degree) but let's keep real.





geogregor said:


> France (or Spain or Germany or any other Western country) will never build at similar pace. Ever.





geogregor said:


> But we will not replicate the surge building some countries had in 1960s or 70s and others in 80s or 90s. Those times are not coming back.


I think you took it a bit over the top here. The discussion was about missing links / routes as either a motorway or expressway, not building another 5,000 or 10,000 kilometers of motorway as they did in the second half of the 20th century. That's a caricature.


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## sotonsi

Brisavoinée said:


> in the 1850s the bourgeois elites of Le Mans successfully lobbied the French Parliament to have the Paris-Brittany rail road run through Le Mans and not Alençon, which is why the Paris-Brittany motorway in the 1970s was built via Le Mans and not along the old royal road to Brittany, leaving Alençon totally isolated).


I'd imagine that having the A11 to Nantes going via Le Mans (and thus only needing a relatively short spur from Le Mans to Rennes, rather than a new route the whole way from Rennes to Paris) was the reason why the Autoroute to Rennes goes that way.

Similarly, the A2 towards Brussels, rather than take the N2 corridor all the way from Paris, branches off the A1, as it shortened the amount of autoroute needing to be built to link the big cities/key regions.

And, looking, it seems that the A12 was originally planned to go along the N12 corridor to Brittany. But, like how Normandy north of the Seine was adequately served by the A13 and so the A15 was mostly not built, the A12 wasn't needed as the A11-A81 was fine for Paris-Rennes/North Brittany. The N12 corridor needs to justify its improvements not as a long distance corridor, but as serving the relatively small places along the route - that makes it a harder sell. It would be easier to justify if it was a needed parallel route - if the A11 was as clogged as the A1, A6, A7, etc, then the A12 would have been built!


----------



## Brisavoinée

geogregor said:


> Do you guys seriously expect motorway to any mid-sized town or every mountain valley?


Back in the 1990s the French State promised that every prefecture would be linked to the motorway network. This is still not the case in 2021, as various prefectures have no motorway connection, such as Auch, Aurillac, Gap, Mende, Digne-les-Bains, Vesoul, etc. And some prefectures have bad motorway connections, such as Alençon that I mentioned yesterday.

Various international connections are also lacking: A5 to Swiss border, Toulouse to Barcelona, Nice to Turin, Toulouse to Saragossa (and Madrid), Marseille to Turin.


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## Brisavoinée

sotonsi said:


> I'd imagine that having the A11 to Nantes going via Le Mans (and thus only needing a relatively short spur from Le Mans to Rennes, rather than a new route the whole way from Rennes to Paris) was the reason why the Autoroute to Rennes goes that way.


Like I said, it all comes from the decision in the 19th century to build the railway line via Le Mans. In the 18th century, Alençon and Le Mans has almost the same size. Alençon was the former capital of a duchy independent from Normandy (the last Duchess was the sister of King Francis I).








(on a side note, my ancestors worked for her at her court; she was also queen of Navarre)

Alençon was back then one of the important French cities, on par with cities like Angers, Le Mans, Reims, Troyes, etc.

In the 18th century when they built the Paris-Rennes and the Caen-Tours royal roads (the most modern roads in the world at the time, long straight line, best surface ever, a bit similar to "macadam"), Alençon became a major stopover on the road network of France. It was busy with travelers, hotels, coaching inns to change horses. As a matter of fact at the time my ancestor was managing a coaching inn on the royal road from Paris to Rennes, near Alençon, with a commission obtained from Versailles (managers of coaching inns received a pension from Versailles and were exempt from all taxes). 

Those royal roads were the motorways of the day. Just read the travel diaries of Arthur Young, that Englishman who traveled across France repeatedly from 1787 to 1789. He is always raving about the high standards and wide breadth of French roads, compared to the pitiful rutted paths that they had in England at the time.

In general all railway lines built in the 19th century followed the old royal roads, because these were the corridors that made most sense, selected as they had been by royal engineers in the 18th century, and the cities along those roads were the busiest due to the road traffic they already had.

In the case of Alençon and Le Mans, what made the difference was not a desire to reach also Nantes, but the main reason was the hilly Perche area, which lies between Paris and Alençon. To go from Paris to Le Mans you cross only the southern extremity of Perche, which is less hilly. Crossing the central Perche to reach Alençon would have been more costly, and this combined with the lobbying from Le Mans elites won the day.

As a result, Alençon declined tremendously in population compared to Le Mans. Both cities of almost equal size in the 18th century, whereas today the metro area of Le Mans has 368,500 inhabitants and the metro area of Alençon has only 81,500 inhabitants. 

So when they built the motorways in the 1970s, they followed the railway line, because Le Mans was now considerably larger than Alençon, and the terrain is easier, less hilly than central Perche. They would have reached the same decision even if Nantes had not existed.


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## MichiH

Brisavoinée said:


> and the terrain is easier, less hilly than central Perche.


A wise decision!


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## Bender

geogregor said:


> I hope you are not trying to imply that France has poor motorway network.


What I am saying it that a network in decent condition is the minimum one may expect expect when one pays a fortune for toll roads.


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## sponge_bob

geogregor said:


> It will continues, unless in the new post pandemic world more people are happy to live in such places and work completely remotely.


As Spain has the best telecoms networks in rural areas in all of Europe with fibre available very very widely already then the depopulation should have slowed down and stopped already....if it is every going to stop that is. France is a distance behind on FTTH fibre but doing pretty OK.


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## ChrisZwolle

Bender said:


> What I am saying it that a network in decent condition is the minimum one may expect expect when one pays a fortune for toll roads.


I'm under the impression that motorways in France are used differently than in Germany or Benelux. I think that the toll roads are used chiefly for long-distance traffic, i.e. most French don't use them daily, but maybe only a few times per month (or even less). 

When you travel across France, you'll see that non-motorways have a much older car fleet on the roads than on the toll roads, which led me to believe that many cars in rural France or in the social housing suburbs almost never travel on the toll roads.


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## sponge_bob

Brisavoinée said:


> Various international connections are also lacking: A5 to Swiss border, Toulouse to Barcelona, Nice to Turin, Toulouse to Saragossa (and Madrid), Marseille to Turin.


I think all of those would be hard to build EVEN if both neighbours were fully prepared to accept the costs involved. France<>Italy has shite connections, France<>Spain less so. But because it was a priority early on France<>Belgium has more full motorway connections than Spain and Italy combined. 5 vs 4 I make it. 

This might have been a good idea in the 1960s but life has moved on a lot faster than the plans themselves have.


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## Brisavoinée

ChrisZwolle said:


> When you travel across France, you'll see that non-motorways have a much older car fleet on the roads than on the toll roads, which led me to believe that many cars in rural France or in the social housing suburbs almost never travel on the toll roads.


Yeah, quite a lot of people avoid tolled motorways. It's the most unfair road system in a European country that proclaims "equality" the most. I've always found that funny.


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## sponge_bob

Brisavoinée said:


> Yeah, quite a lot of people avoid tolled motorways.


I have no idea how the French tolls are so high, surely the main roads are mainly 40 years old and paid off in full by now. Tolling for maintenance should cost a lot less than tolling for construction and maintenance.


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## Brisavoinée

sponge_bob said:


> I have no idea how the French tolls are so high, surely the main roads are mainly 40 years old and paid off in full by now.


Two reasons: first it was because the toll revenues were used to build new motorways (it was called "adossement", literally "abutment" in English). What adossement means is the high tolls on ancient and profitable motorways (like A6 between Paris and Lyon) were used to finance less profitable motorways in more sparsely populated parts of France. This system worked quite well, but was stupidly ended in 1999 due to pressure from French courts and from EU rules (the sacrosanct EU competition rules).

So after adossement was abandoned it would have been logical to decrease toll on the older and profitable motorways, but then came the 2nd reason: corruption in Villepin's government. Dominique de Villepin, the impetuous prime minister of France under Chirac (Villepin, famous for his 2003 UN opposition to the US invasion of Iraq), decided to privatize all the French motorways in 2005 and sell them to big construction companies (Vinci, etc), whose bosses he was a friend with, and whose financial support he expected for his planned presidential campaign in 2007.

Villepin's famous speech at the UN in 2003 contradicting Colin Powell (he was applauded in the end, something which had never been seen at the Security Council):






This privatization is still seen as shameful today (the motorways were sold at a cheap price by the French State, with extremely good terms for the private companies buying them, such as possibility to rise toll prices every year, etc). These companies now generate the highest profits in France, and give big dividends to their shareholders. It's a major scandal regularly denounced in the French media. Problem is the contracts have been written in such a way that it is almost impossible for the French State to rescind them.

Every 5 years you've got a presidential candidate saying they will nationalize the motorways again, or suppress all tolls, but the media quickly explain how this is legally extremely difficult, and not very serious, and so the matter is dropped until 5 years later.

The matter came back top of the newspapers' front pages during the Gilets Jaunes again (toll on motorways too high), but nothing changed. It would take a de Gaulle to dare nationalize the motorways.


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## Bender

It's not the motorway itself that was privatised, just the road management. The companies that manage the roads were privatised but I doubt the motorways would be free or cheaper if that had not happened. It's a cash cow and the French state gets its fair share of the amount collected.


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## Attus

sponge_bob said:


> France<>Belgium has more full motorway connections than Spain and Italy combined. 5 vs 4 I make it.


Correct but check the terrain, and check population density of both sides of the borders. All F-B connections serve regional traffic heavily. And there is hardly any regional traffic at F-E and F-I borders - of obvious reasons.


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## ChrisZwolle

A public consultation has started for the upgrade of N147 Poitiers - Limoges to a motorway:









RN147 - Début de la concertation du public sur le projet d'autoroute Limoges - Poitiers


Une autoroute entre Limoges et Poitiers. Qu'en dites-vous ? La concertation du public commence ce mardi sur l'aménagement de la RN147. Jusqu'au 20 mars, chacun va pouvoir consulter et donner son avis sur ce projet d'autoroute concédée, mais aussi les solutions alternatives.




www.francebleu.fr






This project seemed a long way off, but over the last 2 years or so there has been more interest in it. It was initially promised to be an expressway, which would likely be built very incrementally, a timeframe of several decades seemed likely. A toll concession may speed things up. 

So far only the Poitiers bypass is a higher standard road, with four lanes and interchanges. The Bellac bypass is a lower standard road, with roundabouts and two lanes. A short four lane bypass of Fleuré has been built as well, but N147 is a surface road elsewhere, going through towns and has several steeper and curvy sections.


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## Luki_SL

^^Will this road be numbered "A" in the future?


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## Brisavoinée

^^This "public consultation" is going to be a NIMBY fest.

I don't even know why they have those "public consultations". It's just a joke. They didn't exist 20 years ago. They serve no purpose IMO, people opposed to roads won't change their mind, they just serve to galvanize the NIMBY crowds. Do other countries have mandatory public consultations too before any road project?


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## ChrisZwolle

Brisavoinée said:


> Do other countries have mandatory public consultations too before any road project?


Yes, though maybe in a different way than in France. It shouldn't be seen as a referendum on a project, as it tends to attract a crowd that is opposed to a project.

In the Netherlands there are several consultation rounds, the first is with the publication of the intention of starting a project study, where people can comment on. Then, people can comment on the draft plan approval. Then, people can take it to court when the final plan approval is released. However only the appeals of people actually impacted by the project are taken into consideration. So an appeal on ideological grounds is doomed to fail if the project doesn't impact your house, land, business or other legitimate interest.

In the Netherlands there is only one administrative court where people can appeal. In Germany it's possible to take it first to a regional court and then go to a higher court. And sometimes people even take it up to human rights courts, which is rather absurd.


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## Brisavoinée

In France you can take it to the local administrative court, then to the administrative court of appeal, then to the supreme administrative court (Conseil d'Etat). In total the whole judicial process can take 5 years (2 years at local administrative court, 2 years at administrative court of appeal, 1 year at the Conseil d'Etat).


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## Nikolaj

In Denmark you only have one round of real public consultation. The planning process (for large projects, i.e. a new motorway) has three planning phases 1) Strategic planning investigation (Strategisk undersøgelse) 2) Feasiblity study (Forundersøgelse) 3) Environmental Impact Assessment (Miljøkonsekvens vurdering - MKV - previous VVM). For some projects phase 1 and 3 is combined. Only phase 3 includes public consultations. Phase 3 - the EIA phase - is initiated with a call for ideas, and upon completion there is public consultation round.

After the third phase, including the public consultation, next step for large projects is a construction bill/law in parliament. When approved in parliament the construction bill cannot be taken to court, and is final. That was one of the reason why the process for the Femern Belt Fixed Link was much quicker and smoother in Denmark than in Germany. In Denmark it was finalised with a construction bill in 2015, while in Germany it was only finalized in 2020 after having been appealed to court.


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## Brisavoinée

^^Even laws can be appealed in courts now in France (well in the Constitutional Court, precisely). French lawmakers have multiplied the possibilities of challenging administrative decisions and now even laws to such an extent (all in the name of "better democracy") that it's become counter-productive and it stifles everything in France.

Now you can challenge laws even years after they were voted.


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## sponge_bob

I'm afraid Ireland has also caught the French disease rather than the Danish cure.

I take it the court cases are almost all caused by strident ecomentalists who live many 100s of kms from the proposed project and who don't care about the locals along the way who suffer heavy traffic today.


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## Nikolaj

In Denmark a law can only be court challenged for its constitutionality, and not for other content, as the parliament is considered sovereign to decide content. And so far no one has questioned the constitutionality of the parliament to decide to construct a road or a railway within Denmark.


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## Brisavoinée

Same in France, you can only challenge a law for its constitutionality. But isn't the preservation of the environment written in your constitution? In France the Constitutional Council checks whether a law respects not just the written constitution, but also a more fuzzy set of constitutional principles, such as protection of the environment. That set of principles can be enlarged ad infinitum by the Constitutional Council, which is why more and more laws are struck by the Constitutional Council, as the Constitutional Council expands its remit.


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## Corvinus

ChrisZwolle said:


> When you travel across France, you'll see that non-motorways have a much older car fleet on the roads than on the toll roads, which led me to believe that many cars in rural France or in the social housing suburbs almost never travel on the toll roads.


Sounds like certain parallels to the Mexican road system. Given the steep French tolls and at the same time, the quality of the motorways, they could at least allow for a 160 km/h general limit (still leaving room for lower limits where indicated). 
With the ongoing green frenzy, that is of course unlikely to happen in the near future. Also, they could be afraid of vehicles going at 200 km/h then, risking a modest 90 euros fine.


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## ChrisZwolle

The southeastern part of the Locminé bypass of D767 in Bretagne will open to traffic on 8 January. This is part of a larger project called 'Axe Triskell', to create a four lane expressway from Vannes to Saint-Brieuc. 

D767 was formerly a route nationale, N167, which ran from Vannes to Lannion.









Locminé. La déviation tant attendue, enfin inaugurée samedi 8 janvier


Un premier tronçon de la déviation de Locminé (axe Triskell, Vannes-Saint-Brieuc) sera inauguré le 8 janvier 2022.




actu.fr





Location: OpenStreetMap


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## Nikolaj

Brisavoinée said:


> Same in France, you can only challenge a law for its constitutionality. But isn't the preservation of the environment written in your constitution? In France the Constitutional Council checks whether a law respects not just the written constitution, but also a more fuzzy set of constitutional principles, such as protection of the environment. That set of principles can be enlarged ad infinitum by the Constitutional Council, which is why more and more laws are struck by the Constitutional Council, as the Constitutional Council expands its remit.


No. The Danish constitution is very old fashioned and very general. It was written in 1849, and only minor changes have been done since, and the last one in 1953, where the second chamber in parliament was abolished and female succession to the throne was allowed under certain circumstances.
But no such "modern" themes as:

human rights
gender and sexual rights
race equality
environmental protection
climate
membership of international bodies like EU and Nato
international conventions
are mentioned at all. In fact if you read the Danish constitution you would not think it is a democracy. No mentioning of parties or a government - only the king. It states that the legislative power lies with the king and parliament in unity and the king is the executive power.

It has been discussed over and over again that a modernization was needed, but the requirement for a constituitional changes are extremely complex, and is therefore more or less deemed impossible


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## Brisavoinée

Corvinus said:


> Given the steep French tolls and at the same time, the quality of the motorways, they could at least allow for a 160 km/h general limit (still leaving room for lower limits where indicated).


The mayor of Paris, who is candidate for the French Socialist Party in the 2022 presidential election, said she wanted to decreased the speed limit to 110 km/h on all tolled and untolled motorways...

So just keeping the current 130 km/h for the next 30 years will be a miracle.

Speed limit on suburban expressways and motorways was decreased to 70 km/h in many French metro areas. Speed limit on all 2 or 3 lane roads in rural areas was decreased to 80 km/h.

Now the motorways are under threat and could be decreased to 110 km/h.

It's a general assault on the automobile culture of the country (this plus radars absolutely everywhere, all sorts of policies to make life hell for motorists in cities, various projects to increase taxes on gas, already very high in France, etc).


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## MichiH

nim=nim said:


> The Milanese did not solve their city congestion problems by blasting more highways into town they solved it by banning cars.


Do we talk about "highways into town" or about bypasses? btw, Milano built a lot tangenziale etc. in recent years... just saying.

And I don't think that any city in the world has "solved" its transportation issues.


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## nim=nim

MichiH said:


> Do we talk about "highways into town" or about bypasses?


The grumbling by suburban car users that can not accept the Metropolis population voted out proponents of more highways mixes everything :

1. the reclamation of portions of the A6/A7 highways that go through the city center. Those highways have been recognized as a mistake almost as soon they were finished building, but have been an administrative hell to undo (Lyon’s 1995 mayor had already been elected over a promise to scrap them). Now, the reclamation is finally happening, it can not wait any longer, the parts of the city they go through have already been totally rebuilt and converted from slums and derelict hangars to high-density modern flats (including new public transports).

2. the opposition to enlargement of the eastern bypass. This bypass was built over the promise to relieve the A6/A7, enabling their painless reclamation. That did not work out. Suburbanites love to claim it is needed for international traffic and “national interest”, but the latest decision paper admitted the enlargement would only be used by new local traffic. The Metropolis does not want local road traffic to grow since officials have been elected over the promise to shrink it and are investing heavily in mass transit.

3. since the eastern bypass was an utter failure some people invented the COL, a western bypass, that would work better (don’t ask them why, it’s a tenet of faith the next additional road lane will fix the system even when experience shows it never does). Every single political party had given up on it before the last election, including the people who had proposed it in the first place, it was that unpopular

4. the Metropolis built a few bike lines during the pandemic. The fact they work is taken as a personal insult by car suburbanites stuck in their jams, even though the very streets they are jammed in were already clogged before a lane was reclaimed for bikes.

5. they’re also trying to revive the A47 Lyon/Saint-Etienne enlargement even though it has been shelved years ago (they succeeded in killing fixes to the rail link however).

6. lastly the kind of city center car control Milano spearheaded is scheduled to happen in Lyon like in the rest of the EU, maybe a couple years earlier since the population is fed up with car traffic, in the long run no different than elsewhere but some can not accept that either.

Mostly they are unhappy because they bet on a car-centric way of life, it did not work out and the rest of the population no longer wants to hear of new highway projects that claim they will finaly make it work. The amount of car infrastructure rollback gives an idea how much Lyon invested in car infrastructure last century, before it all ended up in jams.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Locminé bypass in Bretagne (western France) has opened to traffic today. It's a four lane voie express.

It's the first (southern) stage. Further sections are under construction.


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## sponge_bob

The Locminé bypass was halted for at least a year by some ecomentalists who took a case _after_ construction started, work restarted in 2020 some time but it should have been completed a year back. 









Morbihan. Le chantier du contournement de Locminé pourrait être arrêté au moins un an


Le chantier de création d’une 2x2 voies à l’est de Locminé va être stoppé dans les prochains jours, suite une décision du tribunal administratif de Rennes. Les élus, en colère, parlent d’une interruption d’au moins un an, qui va coûter très cher au contribuable morbihannais.




www-ouest--france-fr.translate.goog


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## ChrisZwolle

The media report that the financing for the final four lane segment of N124 between Toulouse and Auch has been secured.

The final segment is between Gimont and L’Isle-Jourdain, at a cost of € 27.5 million. The Gimont bypass itself is already under construction and should open within the next few months.









Gers : le financement du dernier tronçon de la RN 124 confirmé


Le gouvernement a confirmé mardi le financement du dernier tronçon de la RN 124 entre Gimont et L’Isle-Jourdain, à hauteur de 27,5 millions d’euros.




www.ladepeche.fr


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## CNGL

I see the flamebaiter is gone for good, so now I can post what I've been doing lately. I'm now sweeping the entirety of _La France_ digging up the entire pre-1973 national road network. So far I'm a quarter of the way, having completed Occitania, Provence Alps Azure Coast, Corsica and the Aquitaine proper sub-region of New Aquitaine. Note that for my own purposes I use the pre-2016 regional division (with the former regions now merged referred to as "sub-regions" of the new ones), and I also use the "departmental circunscriptions", i.e. I still consider the collectivites of Alsace and Corsica (the former actually a sub-region under my system) to be split into two departments each (67 Bas Rhin and 68 Haut Rhin, and 2A Corse du Sud and 2B Haute Corse respectively), and the metropolitan area of Lyon to be part of department 69 (Rhône). I like to find weird quirks that old system had, like indirect routes (most notably former N566 through the Turini Pass) or the various branches (N86 had 12 of them at one point, mostly bridges over the Rhone, some now gone). Another thing are routes that got submerged under man-made lakes (the Serre Ponçon lake really messed up that area), and those that were cut off by airports (most notably former N17 near Lille, which never got a diversion).


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## ChrisZwolle

A7 in Marseille. This is the oldest part of A7, opening in 1950. It still exists today.


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## CNGL

So you find an awesome sounding town, which turns out to have a local television channel and also a road under construction nearby, and this leads to...

Here's a reportage on the N52 duplication between Marange Silvange and Rombas (near Metz), produced by Rombas Télévision back in April. The road is due to open later this year (and, oh surprise, there are presidential elections later this year). It contains plenty of details about the project, provided one can understand French.


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## Tophe in Germany

if it helps to improve the circulation between A4, A30 and A31 by serving Rombas and avoiding too many problems with the tunnel, why not. Current situation is a mess anyway, and the interchanges on the motorways very dangerous when the weather is not fine.


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## ChrisZwolle

A75 at Millau, this past week:


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## ChrisZwolle

One of my favorite roads in the French Alps is the road through the _Gorges du Cians_. The most substandard sections are bypassed by tunnels. These old routes still exist, for example here at the 'Grande Clue'.

I've also recorded the entire route on video


Gorges du Cians 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges du Cians 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges du Cians 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges du Cians 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges du Cians 10 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges du Cians 12 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges du Cians 14 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges du Cians 15 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

A bridge over a bridge. D28 Valberg - Guillaumes in the Alpes-Maritimes.


D28 Valberg - Guillaumes 16 by European Roads, on Flickr


D28 Valberg - Guillaumes 17 by European Roads, on Flickr


D28 Valberg - Guillaumes 19 by European Roads, on Flickr


D28 Valberg - Guillaumes 20 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Corvinus

"52t" sign is absolute standard and no driver having passed the exam anywhere in Europe would have an excuse to ignore it. "Un seul PL" on the contrary won't be understood by many foreigners. Anyway, this looks more like a scenic road than an important freight route.


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## ChrisZwolle

52 tons is a pretty unusual weight limit, higher than the regular weight limit, probably specific to this temporary bridge design. 

Trucks over 50 tons are usually specialized vehicles, like asphalt trucks or logging trucks. 

This road leads to the Valberg ski resort. There probably aren't many large trucks going up there (almost 1,000 meters elevation change, no through route), but incidental usage by construction crews is possible.


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## ChrisZwolle

The N124 bypass of Gimont in Southern France has been inaugurated today. This four lane expressway has eliminated the last urban section of N124 between Toulouse and Auch.

I found some photos on Twitter:


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## ChrisZwolle

The opened N124 at Gimont. The travel time gain is about 10 minutes.



























Contournement de Gimont : "En évitant la traversée de la ville, je gagne une dizaine de minutes"


Les premiers automobilistes ont pu emprunter le contournement de Gimont ce mardi 15 février après-midi. Certains relèvent déjà un gain de temps avec le nouvel itinéraire tandis que d’autres venaient découvrir la 2x2...




www.ladepeche.fr


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## cuartango

Are there any plans to extend N124 to Mont-De-Marsan?


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## Fane40

cuartango said:


> Are there any plans to extend N124 to Mont-De-Marsan?


Absolutely nothing. Traffic is light in general except in summer but a bypass of some villages like Nogaro would be great.
The negative side is having to stay behind one or more trucks for long minutes without being able to overtake.


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## CNGL

N124 currently ends abruptly before reaching Manciet, it hasn't served Mont de Marsan since what I call the "second purge" (2006) (And even then, it only went via Mont de Marsan between the purges, before 1973 it went directly from Grenade sur l'Adour to Tartas, were it ended until N10 and N132 were swapped in 1949). Anyway, I expect N124 to be even further truncated to Auch now that the _Itinéraire à Grand Gabarit_ has lost its function following the end of the Airbus A380 project, along with the deletion of N224, N524 (which starts from the same point N124 ends) and N542 (this is just a rural road!) from the national network.


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## ChrisZwolle

One of the most scenic roads in France is D2202 (ex-N202) through the _Gorges de Daluis_, a gorge of the Var River in the Alpes-Maritimes. The road snakes its way through the gorge with many viewpoints. Southbound traffic travels through 8 short tunnels, while northbound traffic takes a narrow road around it. Northbound allows for the most scenic pullouts.


Gorges de Daluis 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de Daluis 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de Daluis 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de Daluis 08 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de Daluis 10 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de Daluis 11 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de Daluis 13 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de Daluis 17 by European Roads, on Flickr


Gorges de Daluis 18 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> The highest point of the French motorway system is the Col des Issartets in the Massif Central,


I think it's A43 just before the Frejus tunnel. I know it's not technically a motorway being just 2+1 but AFAIR it's still signposted as one.


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## ChrisZwolle

D253 near Le Buisson in the Lozère department is an old alignment of N9. It's an open air museum for people interested in historic Michelin signs, there are a significant number of traffic signs and directional signs from 1956 and 1966 (the production date is written on these signs).

Location: Google Maps


D253 historic Michelin signs 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


D253 historic Michelin signs 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


D253 historic Michelin signs 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


D253 historic Michelin signs 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


D253 historic Michelin signs 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


D253 historic Michelin signs 10 by European Roads, on Flickr


D253 historic Michelin signs 12 by European Roads, on Flickr


D253 historic Michelin signs 14 by European Roads, on Flickr


D253 historic Michelin signs 20 by European Roads, on Flickr


D253 historic Michelin signs 22 by European Roads, on Flickr


D253 historic Michelin signs 25 by European Roads, on Flickr


D253 historic Michelin signs 32 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

The completion of N164 as a four lane expressway (voie express) in the Finistère department has been celebrated today.

The final 12.5 kilometer segment of N164 in Finistère is located around Châteauneuf-du-Faou, according to earlier reports it was already more or less completed in January or February 2022, but apparently there were some 90 km/h restrictions for a while to mop up the remaining works.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585934406921093121

N164 for a long time had only partial and fragmented sections with 2x2 lanes, however the entire route through Finistère is now a continuous four lane expressway with a 110 km/h speed limit.

127 out of 161 kilometers of N164 are now a 2x2 _voie express_.

Location of Finistère:


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## ChrisZwolle

I took a couple of photos of the Viaduc de la Colagne, a 135 meter high viaduct of N88 over the Colagne valley, just before it joins A75. The bridge was completed in 2009 and has cost € 37 million.


Viaduc de la Colagne 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


Viaduc de la Colagne 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Viaduc de la Colagne 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

The official opening of A79 from Digoin to Montmarault (92 kilometers) is scheduled on 4 November 2022.









Autoroute - Dans l'Allier, l'A79 sera mise en service officiellement ce vendredi 4 novembre


Cette fois, c'est officiel. Après deux ans de travaux, l'A79, entre Digoin et Montmarault, ouvrira ce vendredi 4 novembre. La mise en service marque la fin de deux ans de travaux de requalification de la RCEA.




www.lamontagne.fr


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The contract for the construction of A69 between Toulouse and Castres has become definitive on 16 April, with a concession to build and operate the new motorway awarded to NGE (Nouvelles générations d’entrepreneurs). NGE is a new player in French motorway concessions as far as I know, but they have a number of motorway (re)construction projects in their portfolio (not greenfield projects though).
> 
> A69 is the largest near-term motorway project in France. It is a 54 kilometer, mostly greenfield motorway that will link Toulouse to Castres in Southern France. It's an extension of A680 and will replace RN126.
> 
> The motorway will be completed in 2025.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tarn. L'autoroute A69 entre Castres et Toulouse franchit une nouvelle étape
> 
> 
> NGE est désormais le concessionnaire officiel de la future autoroute A69 qui doit relier Castres (Tarn) à Toulouse (Haute-Garonne) en 2025.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> actu.fr


Is A69 already under construction or is there any info when works should commence? Early 2023?


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## ChrisZwolle

An aerial photo of A61 at Lézignan. This 10 kilometer segment of six lane autoroute was completed on 8 July 2022.

I've checked the project website. The western expansion near Villefranche-de-Lauragais is still scheduled for completion in 2022. The eastern expansion to Narbonne will be completed in 2023.












MichiH said:


> Is A69 already under construction or is there any info when works should commence? Early 2023?


I've not seen any announcement of a groundbreaking ceremony. I assume the project is still in the design phase.


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## ChrisZwolle

The official political inauguration of A79 took place today. They also revealed the name of A79: 'La Bourbonnaise'. 

Which is interesting because practically all name signs along French autoroutes were removed over the past decade or so.









Inauguration de l'A79 : l'autoroute du Bourbonnais


Après sa mise en service le 4 novembre dernier, la nouvelle A79 a été officiellement inaugurée ce lundi 14 novembre.




voyage.aprr.fr













Infrastructures - Dans l'Allier, l'A79 a été officiellement baptisée La Bourbonnaise par le ministre des Transports Clément Beaune


Plus de deux cents élus et acteurs locaux ont participé à l’inauguration de l’A79, à Toulon-sur-Allier, dans l'Allier, ce lundi 14 novembre. La Bourbonnaise a été officiellement baptisée par le ministre des Transports, Clément Beaune.




www.lamontagne.fr


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## ChrisZwolle

A public inquiry begins on 22 November for the A31 expansion in the Thionville area. 

The plans are:

six lane widening between the Luxembourg border and Thionville
new route (2x2 lanes) around Thionville, to the south. There are several alternatives.



https://www.moselle.gouv.fr/Actualites/Information/Lancement-de-la-concertation-publique-sur-le-secteur-Nord-du-projet-A31bis



Additionally, FranceBleu also reports about the six lane expansion of A31 between Augny and Bouxières-les-Dames in this context, which is nearly the entire rural segment of A31 between Metz and Nancy.









Concertation publique sur l'A31 bis : c'est parti !


Du 22 novembre au 2 février prochains, des réunions publiques vont permettre à tous les habitants concernés de s'exprimer sur le projet d'A31 bis : à l'issue de cette concertation, le tracé du contournement de Thionville sera choisi. France Bleu Lorraine vous détaille tout ce qu'il faut savoir.




www.francebleu.fr


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## fabricofparis

The last wall of Paris: the story of the boulevard périphérique. A look at why so many homes, schools and sports grounds lie within nose- and earshot of one of Europe's busiest roads.









The last wall of Paris | Fabric of Paris


Vicious circle: the motorway with Paris in a chokehold




fabricofparis.com


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## cuartango

Are there any plans to underground the périphérique, at least partially?


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## ChrisZwolle

Quite a bit of the Périphérique is already enclosed, as well as sections of A86.


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## fabricofparis

cuartango said:


> Are there any plans to underground the périphérique, at least partially?


Parts already are, as @ChrisZwolle said, but I think a few more will be in the coming years, as part of the city's plan to redesign over half of the "portes". It stands to reason that in at least some cases this redesign will involve burying the road.


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## ZeusUpsistos

fabricofparis said:


> The last wall of Paris: the story of the boulevard périphérique. A look at why so many homes, schools and sports grounds lie within nose- and earshot of one of Europe's busiest roads.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last wall of Paris | Fabric of Paris
> 
> 
> Vicious circle: the motorway with Paris in a chokehold
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fabricofparis.com


Always enjoy reading your articles !

I have a question, you mentionned towards the end that Bercy 2 will be converted rather than demolished, where did you get that information ? As far as I know, the plan is still to demolish it.

Regarding the Pont Masséna, that you seem to like a lot, you can already cross it by foot if you really want it, there is a "sidewalk" seperated from the road with a concrete barrier. I used to go there a lot to take pictures of the construction of the recently completed tours Duo, which are right next to the bridge. Though I would say it's not really the most pleasant walk (and you need to be careful where you put your feets because it's in a bad shape).  

But the views are great !











cuartango said:


> Are there any plans to underground the périphérique, at least partially?





fabricofparis said:


> Parts already are, as @ChrisZwolle said, but I think a few more will be in the coming years, as part of the city's plan to redesign over half of the "portes". It stands to reason that in at least some cases this redesign will involve burying the road.


Most of the redesigns concerns _portes_ where the Périphérique is elevated (St-Ouen, Clignancourt, Ivry, etc) or where it is already covered. Right now, the only serious plan to cover the road is a very small portion at the Porte de Montreuil.









A more substancial project is the redevelopment of the Porte de Bagnolet, which would include the burial of the entire interchange with the A3 motorway. However, considering its massive size and the amount of work it would require, we are still quite far from anything happening there.

From this :









To this :


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## fabricofparis

ZeusUpsistos said:


> I have a question, you mentionned towards the end that Bercy 2 will be converted rather than demolished, where did you get that information ? As far as I know, the plan is still to demolish it.


I didn't see anything concrete, I just couldn't find anything recent saying it was still the plan. But it's probably just wishful thinking on my part to hope that it won't happen 



ZeusUpsistos said:


> Regarding the Pont Masséna, that you seem to like a lot, you can already cross it by foot if you really want it, there is a "sidewalk" seperated from the road with a concrete barrier.


Wow, thank you for this incredible tip! I will definitely head there soon!


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## ChrisZwolle

View over Millau. There are several viewpoints high above the valley. This is east of Millau, approximately 500 meters higher than the city. 


Millau 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


Millau 08 by European Roads, on Flickr


Millau 09 by European Roads, on Flickr

N9, the southern descent into Millau.

Millau 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


Millau 11 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

Viaduc de Millau. This never gets old. 


A75 Viaduc de Millau 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75 Viaduc de Millau 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75 Viaduc de Millau 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75 Viaduc de Millau 10 by European Roads, on Flickr


A75 Viaduc de Millau 15 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Paul_K

Visited it less than a month ago for the first time, incredible bridge.


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## panda80

Drove End of September on the A63 between Bordeaux and Bayonne. The motorway was built some years ago by upgrading the former N10, and it carries a lot of international truck traffic, as it is one of the only 2 motorways between France and Spain. It is mostly a 3 lanes/direction motorway, with only a small 2x2 section, I guess it should be expanded too during the next years. The full drive:


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## Bastiaan85

IIRC the 2x3 expansion between Salles and the A630 has only recently re-entered consultation phase (concertation préalable). I wouldn't count on implementation before 2027, let's hope they'll manage before the end of the decade.


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## General Maximus

^ What an odd decision. They have (quite rightly) a policy that minimizes vehicles in cities, but they are also against the alternative...


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## Pitchoune

There is a big problem with Green parties in the cities, they seem to want promoting a "countryside in the city" lifestyle with a green area for each one, a vegetable garden for each district, max 5 floors building and no tower in particular (in Brussels they have an obsession against dense urban developments), no big infrastructure, etc. While all this results in the worse urban planning ever (urban sprawling).


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## Brussels1

The Greens are not really in favour of efficient public transport. For them it is more important to be against cars. They do not like metros because they run underground and leave the surface to cars. Rather have tram-lines that block car-traffic (although trams are much slower).


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## ChrisZwolle

I never understand this. This is the same in my city. The neighborhood that always has the highest Greens vote, is also the neighborhood with the least greenery, densely packed streets full of parked cars (Green voting people do own a car, it seems), completely paved from one house to the other, sidewalks taken over by benches and bicycle parking, etc. 

They want to live in the green and in a setting where nobody owns a car, and then they are wilfully moving into the exact opposite of that, and then complain about it.


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## ChrisZwolle

A 2.6 km segment of the St. Brieuc southern bypass opened to traffic today. 

It seems to be built as a super two highway, as opposed to the rest of the bypass which is a four lane _voie express_.

Location: OpenStreetMap



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604806325955072000


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A 2.6 km segment of the St. Brieuc southern bypass opened to traffic today.
> 
> It seems to be built as a super two highway, as opposed to the rest of the bypass which is a four lane _voie express_.
> 
> Location: OpenStreetMap
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604806325955072000


It was inaugurated today and will be opened to traffic tomorrow according to the tweet.

Any news about the missing 1.6km gap between the new section and the previously opened bypass sections to the east? I failed to find useful info....


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## italystf

Being "green" and opposing PT investments means being clowns 🤡


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## General Maximus

Nothing wrong with being green. After all all of us who are not climate change deniers prefer clean air over everything. But at least come up with an alternative like better mass transit possibilities etc.


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## ChrisZwolle

Travaux - La RN 88 ouverte en deux fois deux voies à Yssingeaux


Après 21 mois de travaux réels, la mise en deux fois deux voies de la RN 88 à Yssingeaux vient d'être ouverte à la circulation ce lundi 19 décembre.




www.leveil.fr





4 kilometers of N88 opened to traffic near Yssingeaux, as a four lane _voie express._

The St. Étienne - Le Puy corridor is inching closer to completion, but two major obstacles remain: the Rumel Viaduct near Bessamorel and the bypass of Le Pertuis and Saint-Hostien, which appears to be close to construction stage.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Cirque de Navacelles is a gorge in Southern France, on the border of Gard and Hérault. The D130 (Hérault) and D713 (Gard) traverses the canyon, this is one of the most spectacular roads of the Massif Central. But it's a bit farther from the main arteries, so it doesn't seem to receive as many tourists as the Gorges du Tarn.


Cirque de Navacelles 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


Cirque de Navacelles 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Cirque de Navacelles 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


Cirque de Navacelles 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


Cirque de Navacelles 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


Cirque de Navacelles 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

After a public consultation, the government has decided to expand all of N2 from Laon to Étrœungt to a four lane road. The projected cost is a billion euros and construction will likely take decades. 

Étrœungt is a village with a bypass, where it will feed into the under construction bypass of Avesnes-sur-Helpe. Which means that the entire route from Paris to Maubeuge will be a four lane road.






Laon-Étrœungt : l’État choisit une route nationale 2 à 2x2 voies dans sa totalité - La Voix du Nord


Suite à la concertation publique qui a pris fin au printemps, l’État a tranché : la route nationale 2 sera bien mise à 2x2 voies entre Laon et Avesnes-sur-Helpe (plus précisément Étrœungt). Un investissement de près d’un milliard d’euros qui va prendre plusieurs dizaines d’années.




www.lavoixdunord.fr


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## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> Which is interesting because practically all name signs along French autoroutes were removed over the past decade or so.


Why did they do that? I always loved the different names, such as L'Aquitaine for the A10.


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## General Maximus

That one is still there, as is 'du Soleil' and 'La Comptoise'. I must admit that I haven't seen 'du Nord' in a while, although de l'Est is still there.
Other names you wouldn't know if it wasn't for most of the navigation devices pointing them out. Autoroute des Anglais for example, which is the A26 running from Calais to Reims and then further up the A4 down to Troyes.


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## ChrisZwolle

A 7.5 kilometer bypass of N122 opened to traffic yesterday southwest of Aurillac.


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## ChrisZwolle

A landslide has occurred on the embankment of A38 near Pouilly-en-Auxois in 2020.

They had to close one carriageway for two years and dig out the embankment up to 8 meters deep, and then reinforce it to prevent further slides.

Apparently it now reopened with 2x2 lanes.









Pouilly-en-Auxois. Un temps menacée par un glissement de terrain, l'autoroute A38 rouvre en 2x2 voies après des travaux


Après deux ans de basculement de chaussée à cause d’un risque de glissement de terrain, les usagers de la route peuvent, depuis mi-décembre, circuler sur l’A38 dans le sens Pouilly/Dijon sans avoir à circuler sur la voie opposée, à hauteur des roches de Beaumes, commune de Créancey.



www.bienpublic.com





Location: Google Maps


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## ChrisZwolle

Thanks to the opening of A79 and a number of new expressways, France has now surpassed Spain in motorway/expressway length.

France:

11,846 km autoroute
4,170 km voie express

total: 16,016 kilometers of motorways & expressways as of 31/12/2022. This is the longest in Europe and the third-longest in the world after China and the United States.

Spain has not opened as many motorways this past year, and has reached a network of 15,927 kilometers, which is 89 kilometers less than France. 

On the other hand, Spain tends to have more mileage in the pipeline while France has almost run dry on new motorway projects.


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## verreme

^^ What additional motorway/expressway/whatever term you like the most is France expected to deliver in 2023?


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## ChrisZwolle

Expressways: probably a number of them. I don't keep track of every individual project.

As for autoroutes, as far as I know there are currently no new autoroutes under construction. A69 to Castres is expected to start construction soon though.


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## ChrisZwolle

The tolls at the Mont Blanc Tunnel are now over € 50 for a one-way ticket. The Fréjus Tunnel has the same prices. 

As far as I know only the Øresund Bridge has higher toll rates in Europe.


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## italystf

It's absurd that motorhomes pay 3 times the toll of a van. And there should be at least a yearly pass for locals.
Such expensive tolls are a big barrier against cross-border integration, considering that there are no nearby year-round alternatives.
Probably a non-Schengen border with passport requirement and 1h+ average waiting time is a lesser obstacle than a 50€ oneway toll with no alternatives.


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