# CHINA | High Speed Trainsets



## greenlion

Chinese MOR CRH trains order timetable, update with officially name of the CRH380 family given by Chinese MOR



Code:


Date         Factory                  Class     Type       Quantity Quantity   Amount
                                                            (Set)    (Car)
2004-10-10   Alstom & CNR Changchun  250km/h   CRH5A         60       480     620 m ERU
2004-10-12   Bombadier & BST         250km/h   CRH1A         20       160     350 m USD
2004-10-12   Kawasaki  & CSR Sifang  250km/h   CRH2A         60       480   9,300 m RMB
2005-05-31   Bombadier & BST         250km/h   CRH1A         20       160     350 m USD
Jun 2005     CSR Sifang              300km/h   CRH2C         60       480   8,200 m RMB
Nov 2005     Siemens & CNR Tangshan  350km/h   CRH3C         60       480  13,000 m RMB
2007-10-31   BST                     250km/h   CRH1B & 1E    20+20    640   1,000 m ERU
Nov 2007     CSR Sifang              250km/h   CRH2B         10       160   1,200 m RMB
Nov 2007     CSR Sifang              250km/h   CRH2E          6        96     900 m RMB
Dec 2008     CSR Sifang              250km/h   CRH2E         14       224   2,100 m RMB
Jun 2009     CNR Changchun           250km/h   CRH5A         30       240   4,800 m RMB
2009-03-16   CNR Tangshan            380km/h   CRH380BL      70     1,120  27,440 m RMB
2009-03-16   CNR Changchun           380km/h   CRH380BL      30       480  11,760 m RMB
2009-09-28   CSR Sifang              380km/h   CRH380A & AL  40+100 1,920  45,000 m RMB
2009-09-28   Bombadier & BST         380km/h   CRH380C & CL  20+60  1,120  27,400 m RMB
2009-09-28   CNR Changchun           380km/h   CRH380B & BL  40+40    960  23,500 m RMB
2009-09-28   CNR Tangshan            380km/h   CRH380B       20       160   3,920 m RMB
2010-07-16   BST                     250km/h   CRH1A         40       320   5,200 m RMB
2010-09-14   CSR Sifang              250km/h   CRH2A         20       160   3,400 m RMB
Total                                                       860     9,840
                                                            (1230 standard train sets)


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## HyperMiler

greenlion said:


> But it is different to CRH380A, which is expected to export to the US by CSR


CRH380A has pretty much 0% chance of being sold in the US, unless China pursues a private railway like Desert Xpress.

1. Kawasaki/JR East IPR lawsuit threat.
2. Even if IPR issue is somehow resolved, crashworthiness problem remains. JR East is looking to sell N700 in the US via a Japan-funded private capital railway because of Shinkansen's inability to run on shared track, and the same problem was inherited by CRH380A because it is 90% Shinkansen E2.

The truth is that CRH380A was built to Chinese railway specification; and is incompatible with the US and European railways.


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## Slagathor

crazyalex said:


> China high speed rail will be better than Europe
> 
> I know most European won't agree with me :lol:


Why? Unlike most Americans we're not generally stuck up in some sort of inflated sense of superiority. China makes some kick-ass stuff. A lot of their infrastructure (particularly airports) are of superior quality to most their Western equivalents. I welcome it. I welcome all progress of humanity regardless of where it takes place.


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## 33Hz

HyperMiler said:


> Three problems.
> 
> 1. Too big to run on European railway.
> 2. UIC crashworthiness standard compliance.
> 3. IPR lawsuits.


Yes I was joking...

I know about the different loading gauge but I'd be surprised if the crash worthiness is any different than a Velaro.

As for IPR, I read some translation of Chinese stories that said Siemens is still involved with the 380B, but the Chinese didn't want publicity.





Gadiri said:


> Look at the KTX1 at 00:48, there are *18 passengers coaches *(+2 technical coaches). ^^


Indeed - as there is with a Eurostar - but no TGV design is allowed on the NBS Cologne - Frankfurt.

The point I was making (maybe it was too subtle) is that there is all this palaver about the <400m ICE3s not being allowed through the Channel Tunnel, yet Siemens and their Chinese partners just made a >400m "ICE3" in the space of a year. Given that DB are ordering a whole new version of ICE3 for this purpose, it's can't be too hard to make a long one.

DB have said the plan to run two trains in multiple. Are they planning to split these in Brussels for two destinations or is this just to get to the arbitrary length limit? If the latter then an EU version of the CRH-380B could be the answer. The extra top speed might be useful too.


Anyway, back on topic...


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## Stainless

33Hz said:


> The point I was making (maybe it was too subtle) is that there is all this palaver about the <400m ICE3s not being allowed through the Channel Tunnel, yet Siemens and their Chinese partners just made a >400m "ICE3" in the space of a year. Given that DB are ordering a whole new version of ICE3 for this purpose, it's can't be too hard to make a long one.
> 
> DB have said the plan to run two trains in multiple. Are they planning to split these in Brussels for two destinations or is this just to get to the arbitrary length limit? If the latter then an EU version of the CRH-380B could be the answer. The extra top speed might be useful too.
> 
> 
> Anyway, back on topic...


Are platforms in Germany long enough for the >400m trains? or is the issue that they don't think they can get enough business to fill a long train? Anyway I thought the splitting idea was so all passengers moved to one half of the train in an emergency, how can they do that with 2 trains stuck together unless they have adjoining doors?


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## HyperMiler

33Hz said:


> Yes I was joking...
> 
> I know about the different loading gauge but I'd be surprised if the crash worthiness is any different than a Velaro.


That depends on whether CRH3 has dual-layer aluminum skin shell of proper gauge. Siemens may not have handed over that technology to the Chinese, opting to construct CRH3 with single-layer skin to save on cost and weight, since a crashworthiness standard doesn't exist in Chinese HSR. Japanese did not hand over dual-layer aluminum skin technology either. 



> As for IPR, I read some translation of Chinese stories that said Siemens is still involved with the 380B, but the Chinese didn't want publicity.


Siemens would not allow CRH3 and its derivatives to show up on international markets, make no mistake about it. Based on released pricing info, there is little cost difference between CRH380B and Velaro, so there is no reason for Siemens to "outsource" Velaro production to CNR.


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## carrot1

HyperMiler said:


> That depends on whether CRH3 has dual-layer aluminum skin shell of proper gauge. Siemens may not have handed over that technology to the Chinese, opting to construct CRH3 with single-layer skin to save on cost and weight, since a crashworthiness standard doesn't exist in Chinese HSR. Japanese did not hand over dual-layer aluminum skin technology either.
> 
> 
> Siemens would not allow CRH3 and its derivatives to show up on international markets, make no mistake about it. Based on released pricing info, there is little cost difference between CRH380B and Velaro, so there is no reason for Siemens to "outsource" Velaro production to CNR.



:lol::lol::lol:


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## dumbfword

Slagathor said:


> Why? *Unlike most Americans we're not generally stuck up in some sort of inflated sense of superiority.* China makes some kick-ass stuff. A lot of their infrastructure (particularly airports) are of superior quality to most their Western equivalents. I welcome it. I welcome all progress of humanity regardless of where it takes place.


lol. With that little comment it's like the pot calling the kettle black.


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## HyperMiler

Velaro D. Dual-layer skin is visible.









CRH380B. Notice the cross section.

Siemens may have used single-layer skin shell to fit more seats into CRH3 as the requirement was 3+2 seating.


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## foxmulder

Slagathor said:


> ... I welcome all progress of humanity regardless of where it takes place.


Amen to that


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## Bandit

I love the smell of envy in the morning. Some can only dream.


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## K_

Stainless said:


> Are platforms in Germany long enough for the >400m trains? or is the issue that they don't think they can get enough business to fill a long train? Anyway I thought the splitting idea was so all passengers moved to one half of the train in an emergency, how can they do that with 2 trains stuck together unless they have adjoining doors?


Two ICE sets are 400m long, long enough to be allowed in the Channel tunnel (the minimum length required is something like 300m). And DB already runs trains like that in Germany. 400m is also the standard maximum train length under the European interoperability standards. All large railway stations have platforms long enough to accomodate such trains. 

The minimum length requirement of the Channel Tunnel might be revised btw, as in practice no incident has happend so far where passengers were evacuated by splitting a train in half.


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## K_

BarbaricManchurian said:


> they made some technical improvements, of course


How much is "technical improvements" and how much is "pushing the enveloppe".
In Europe, for a train to be certified to run at speed X it must demonstrate that it can run safely at speed X+10%. The Siemens Velaro-E is certified for 350kph, so it can safely run at up to 385 kph. This train has run at a speed of 400.3 kph, which is a record for an unmodified, stock train. 
So it is possible that the higher speeds of the Chinese versions of European HSTs are just a result of the application of different safety margins. Is it a coincidence that so many Chinese trains are about 10% faster than their European or Japanese counterparts?


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## dumbfword

Doesn't Deutsche Bahn pretty much only buy Siemens high speed trains?


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## 33Hz

Two ICE sets may be 400m long, but the point is you can't walk between them. (Yes I know it's ridiculous.)

The issue of filing them is another matter. I'm pretty sure they are considering a spilt with one going to Amsterdam. But as an alternative, I think this service will need more than average numbers of business class seats and facilities.


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## greenlion

K_ said:


> How much is "technical improvements" and how much is "pushing the enveloppe".
> In Europe, for a train to be certified to run at speed X it must demonstrate that it can run safely at speed X+10%. The Siemens Velaro-E is certified for 350kph, so it can safely run at up to 385 kph. This train has run at a speed of 400.3 kph, which is a record for an unmodified, stock train.
> So it is possible that the higher speeds of the Chinese versions of European HSTs are just a result of the application of different safety margins. Is it a coincidence that so many Chinese trains are about 10% faster than their European or Japanese counterparts?


designed top speed for CRH380 series is 420km/h, and the test speed reached 440km/h so far


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## K_

greenlion said:


> designed top speed for CRH380 series is 420km/h, and the test speed reached 440km/h so far


So they are keeping the 10% safety margin. That is good. China's progress in high speed rail is remarkable. It would be a tragedy if they also were to set the record for worst high speed rail disaster...


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## K_

33Hz said:


> Two ICE sets may be 400m long, but the point is you can't walk between them. (Yes I know it's ridiculous.)


Inconvenient, yes, but why is it "ridiculous"?


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## HyperMiler

greenlion said:


> designed top speed for CRH380 series is 420km/h, and the test speed reached 440km/h so far


Highly unlikely.

1. CRH380A's power output is no better than other EMUs, and is no improvement over CRH2 and CRH3.
2. The track where the 440 km/hr trial is claimed to have taken place is a 250 km/hr track.


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## The Chemist

HyperMiler said:


> Highly unlikely.
> 
> 1. CRH380A's power output is no better than other EMUs, and is no improvement over CRH2 and CRH3.
> 2. The track where the 440 km/hr trial is claimed to have taken place is a 250 km/hr track.


1. Source?
2. So? The track where the TGV set its record setting run of 574km/h (LGV Est) in 2007 is only a 350km/h track.


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## fragel

curiousi said:


> We are talking about the fastest train


Nobody(except you) is talking about the fastest train. Read the title and and pay attention to the word 'operating'.


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## Luli Pop

curiousi said:


> You are the one who is arrogant and ignorant. Learn some manners.
> 
> It doesn't matter whether the train is commercially running. We are talking about the fastest train, not the fastest commercially running train.
> 
> It pays to use more sense and less emotion.
> 
> And use the dictionary whenever you can. Thanks.


^^

HyperTroll


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## carrot1

curiousi said:


> You are the one who is arrogant and ignorant. Learn some manners.
> 
> It doesn't matter whether the train is commercially running. We are talking about the fastest train, not the fastest commercially running train.
> 
> It pays to use more sense and less emotion.
> 
> And use the dictionary whenever you can. Thanks.



Where's the moderator? Ban him for trolling.


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## makita09

^^ +1


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## Ariel74

curiousi said:


> *We* are talking about the fastest train, not the fastest commercially running train.


No, we are not. Well, maybe *YOU* are talking about the fastest train, tout court. In which case you are wrong. Because V150 is not as fast as the Japanese Maglev.

But the fact of the matter is, *WE* are talking about the fastest unmodified train sets based on the wheel-technology and used for commercial service. And *THAT* is the CRH380A since a couple of a days ago.

Either way, you are wrong, and clearly wrong.



curiousi said:


> And use the dictionary whenever you can. Thanks.


How embarrassing. If I were you, I'd take that advice for myself and try not to make a fool of myself


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## hmmwv

yuzhang said:


> The data from uic is not updated and not including the 2876km upgraded existing lines. The accurate number is 7055km in operatioin, which is more than the whole europe combined.
> http://www.sh.xinhuanet.com/zhuanti/csj/2010-09/28/content_21022633.htm


Agree, if they counted the Acela as HSR then the almost 3000km of upgraded existing lines running EMUs should definitely count towards China's total HSR mileage.


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## greenlion

September 30 & October 1, CRH380A enter temporary service at Huning PDL (Shanghai-Nanjing HSR), during the test operating, top speed reach 342km/h.

*CRH380A at Changzhou Station*

















*inside*

























*Second class carriage*

















*Dining car*

















*first class carriage*









*VIP carriage*









*CRH380A at Nanjing Station*

































*at Danyang Station*


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## greenlion

yuzhang said:


> The data from uic is not updated and not including the 2876km upgraded existing lines. The accurate number is 7055km in operatioin, which is more than the whole europe combined.
> http://www.sh.xinhuanet.com/zhuanti/csj/2010-09/28/content_21022633.htm


http://business.sohu.com/20070413/n249400823.shtml
http://english.cri.cn/6909/2010/10/02/45s597484.htm

upgrade convientional railway at 200km/h 5,157km
upgrade convientional railway at 250km/h 846km

HSR at 250 km/h 5,060km
HSR at 350 km/h 1,955km


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## foxmulder

Thanks greenlion. CRH380A is one of the best looking trains.


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## K_

Looking at the interior I get the impression that all seats are orientated in the same direction. Do these seats rotate?


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## binhai

yes, the workers rotate them after every run


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## Slagathor

Yikes. That will end once China's wages catch up with Western ones


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## Scion

edit


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## K_

Slagathor said:


> Yikes. That will end once China's wages catch up with Western ones


Then they'll replace them with motors, like in the Shinkansen...


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## k.k.jetcar

K_ said:


> Then they'll replace them with motors, like in the Shinkansen...


Perhaps, but the main reason the seats on the shinkansen are motorized is to save time. On the Shinkansen, each train only has 12 minutes turnaround time at Tokyo Station terminal (time from arrival to departure)- 2 minutes for passengers to disembark, *7 minutes for cleaning*, and 3 minutes for boarding. Manually rotating those seats would take up too much time. I don't know the typical turnaround times for CRH trains.


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## yaohua2000

k.k.jetcar said:


> Perhaps, but the main reason the seats on the shinkansen are motorized is to save time. On the Shinkansen, each train only has 12 minutes turnaround time at Tokyo Station terminal (time from arrival to departure)- 2 minutes for passengers to disembark, *7 minutes for cleaning*, and 3 minutes for boarding. Manually rotating those seats would take up too much time. I don't know the typical turnaround times for CRH trains.


The turnaround time could be as short as 15 minutes on Beijing-Tianjin Line.

There are 10 or 20 cleaners waiting on platform, once a train stops, they get on the trains, rotate seats and other jobs. It usually takes 3 to 5 minutes to rotate all seats, and then they get off and get on another coming train do the same thing.


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## sc4

^^ Well, that's China and manpower for you....Loads of them.....haha


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## Simfan34

This is perhaps the best looking train in service anywhere. So I suppose we shall be seeing this in California?


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## curiousi

Simfan34 said:


> This is perhaps the best looking train in service anywhere. So I suppose we shall be seeing this in California?


Have you seen European (especially German) high speed trains?

I think they are better designed with respect to style and function.

Chinese designers have a long way to go before they can catch up with Western designers.

Taste is not something to be cultivated in a matter of years. It will take decades.


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## foxmulder

curiousi said:


> Have you seen European (especially German) high speed trains?
> 
> I think they are better designed with respect to style and function.
> 
> Chinese designers have a long way to go before they can catch up with Western designers.
> 
> Taste is not something to be cultivated in a matter of years. It will take decades.


hehe

and you think you have it


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## Simfan34

foxmulder said:


> You are forgetting an important one: Japan. Japan has many different bullet train types.
> 
> For the Chinese case, the market is just too big. Look at the numbers they order you will understand why they need more than one supplier.


I could have understood that in the beginning, to prevent a western company from gaining a monopoly but now that they're developing their own trains.

And I do agree Korea is almost as bad as China in the whole "tech-digestion" regards, but they tend to fly under the radar. Perhaps we expect more of the next superpower, and honestly I don't see the problem with that...


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## Ariel74

Simfan34 said:


> I could have understood that in the beginning, to prevent a western company from gaining a monopoly but now that they're developing their own trains.
> 
> And I do agree Korea is almost as bad as China in the whole "tech-digestion" regards, but they tend to fly under the radar. Perhaps we expect more of the next superpower, and honestly I don't see the problem with that...


you need to learn your history better:

earlier:
Romans copied from the greeks; Japanese/Korea copied from China; China copied from India;

more recently:
Germany copied industrial production from England; America copied from Germany after the world war II; Japan copied from America in the sixties and onward.

It's not who's worse in copying...tell me who HASN'T copied????


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## Simfan34

That's not the debate here- I simply wanted to say that Korea copied too, and that was even not the main topic...


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## Ariel74

Simfan34 said:


> That's not the debate here- I simply wanted to say that Korea copied too, and that was even not the main topic...


I am not engaging in "the debate". I am pointing out the very way you put things - "Korea is almost as bad as China in tech-digestion" - has false presuppositions. In fact, pretty much everyone "digests" and has "digested" everyone else. So it makes no sense to say who is "worse" or "as bad" in it as someone else.


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## HyperMiler

Simfan34 said:


> I could have understood that in the beginning, to prevent a western company from gaining a monopoly


In the beginning, China tried to develop its own indigenous train but failed, exemplified by China Star. It is at this point when Chinese government decided to acquire foreign technology.



> but now that they're developing their own trains.


China has yet to. Modified Shinkansens and Velaros don't count as "China's own". You can call them "Chinese modifications" but not "Chinese designs".



> And I do agree Korea is almost as bad as China in the whole "tech-digestion" regards


It is the foreign company's earlier experiences in Korea and Taiwan that led to false expectations in China. Koreans did play by the terms of contract, and this is why the CEO of Alstom who called for a worldwide ban on Chinese train export citing IP infringement was silent on KTX-II. Sure, they were learning about foreign technology through these license productions, then they went onto design their own models from scratch, utilizing experiences from the license production and tech transfer. Why? Because all their products are designed to be exportable from the beginning and must withstand the highest standard IPR vetting process, since their own home market is not large enough to support these product. This is why only Korean bullet train models are UIC regulation compliant in Asia, as Shinkansen and CRH were not designed to be exported since their own home market was large enough.

Having had relatively positive experiences in Korea, these European industrial giants expected Chinese to play by the rule like Koreans did based on their ignorance of Asian cultures, and they would soon find out that they were dead wrong.



> Perhaps we expect more of the next superpower


Not at all. Other countries ask China to play by same standard and that's all they would ask.


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## Simfan34

HyperMiler said:


> In the beginning, China tried to develop its own indigenous train but failed, exemplified by China Star. It is at this point when Chinese government decided to acquire foreign technology.


What exactly happened to China Star? I know they tried to make it, but they kind of just stopped without giving any reason. And the DJJ1, I believe it was called? 




HyperMiler said:


> China has yet to. Modified Shinkansens and Velaros don't count as "China's own". You can call them "Chinese modifications" but not "Chinese designs".


CRH1, 2, 3, and 4. could be counted as Chinese modifications, but these new ones we are seeing, like the CRH380A, have been developed by China. While it is obvious China has absorbed foreign technology, and undoubtedly unfairly, you can't deny that trains like the Velaro 380 are still in development while the CRH380A are operating... hard to steal from someone while they're still inventing it. 




HyperMiler said:


> It is the foreign company's earlier experiences in Korea and Taiwan that led to false expectations in China. Koreans did play by the terms of contract, and this is why the CEO of Alstom who called for a worldwide ban on Chinese train export citing IP infringement was silent on KTX-II. Sure, they were learning about foreign technology through these license productions, then they went onto design their own models from scratch, utilizing experiences from the license production and tech transfer. Why? Because all their products are designed to be exportable from the beginning and must withstand the highest standard IPR vetting process, since their own home market is not large enough to support these product. This is why only Korean bullet train models are UIC regulation compliant in Asia, as Shinkansen and CRH were not designed to be exported since their own home market was large enough.


Wait, I'm confused. If "Koreans did play by the terms of contract", why would Alstom be "silent on KTX-II"? You imply some kind of absorption as we see in China. 
And the part about "Shinkansen and CRH" strikes me as wrong- Shinkansen was exported to China and Taiwan while CRH is looking like it's going to be exported to everyone and their brother. 



HyperMiler said:


> Having had relatively positive experiences in Korea, these European industrial giants expected Chinese to play by the rule like Koreans did based on their ignorance of Asian cultures, and they would soon find out that they were dead wrong.


When you say "based on their ignorance of Asian cultures" you seem to imply Asian cultures are okay with this type of "digestion", yet they had "relatively positive experiences in Korea". You're confusing me here, unless you're trying to say they over-generalized.




HyperMiler said:


> Not at all. Other countries ask China to play by same standard and that's all they would ask.


And they should. :cheers:


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## HyperMiler

Simfan34 said:


> What exactly happened to China Star?


China pulled the plug on China Star only after two years of service.



> know they tried to make it, but they kind of just stopped without giving any reason.


Too many technical problems that Chinese couldn't fix.



> but these new ones we are seeing, like the CRH380A, have been developed by China.


CRH380A : Modified Shinkansen E2
CRH380B : Velaro with raised domestic content.
CRH380C : Bombardier design.

China has yet to produce an indigenous bullet train design.



> and undoubtedly unfairly, you can't deny that trains like the Velaro 380 are still in development while the CRH380A are operating... hard to steal from someone while they're still inventing it.


CRH380B is basically a oversped Velaro. Velaro CN always had the ability to run at 395 km/hr. Chinese decided to tap into the built in safety margin of Velaro CN to claim this higher speed. 



> Wait, I'm confused. If "Koreans did play by the terms of contract", why would Alstom be "silent on KTX-II"? You imply some kind of absorption as we see in China.


Here is exactly what's happening.

Korea : Foreigners teach Koreans how to design a high speed train. Koreans then go onto design their own train from scratch, going through the normal development cycle(11 years in case of KTX-II). The resulting product is totally new and meets IPR standards of US and Euro markets.

China : Foreigners teach Chinese how to design a high speed train. Chinese take the supplied drawings provided for license production and utilize them beyond the agreed usage term to build CRH380A and CRH380B, where foreign licensor supplied content is replaced by Chinese clone parts. The resulting product infringes on Kawasaki and Siemens IPR and cannot be sold in markets where IPR protection is strong, such as the US and Euro markets.



> When you say "based on their ignorance of Asian cultures" you seem to imply Asian cultures are okay with this type of "digestion"


Based on ignorance of Asian cultures, I meant that those foreign vendor executives expected Chinese to behave like Koreans and Taiwanese, that is to live up to the terms of license agreement and not misappropriate the supplied technology for purposes other than the license term.



> yet they had "relatively positive experiences in Korea".


Alstom in this case expected Koreans to learn from them, then build their own stuff that doesn't contain TGV IP, which Korean did. Since this takes long time(It took Koreans 11 years to finish KTX-II), Alstom expected that they would have shifted over to AGV by the time Koreans enter the market with KTX-II. Two things that Alstom didn't anticipate happened.

1. Transition to AGV took longer than expected.
2. KTX-II turned out to be much more competitive than Alstom anticipated. Basically this is the ultimate TGV that Alstom never built.

But in case of Koreans, everything is done per agreed term, and Alstom is in awkward situation of having to compete against KTX-II with TGVs in the US and Brazil markets.


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## Simfan34

Okay, I'm glad you clarified, and I really can't see anything to dispute.


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## foxmulder

Simfan34 said:


> What exactly happened to China Star? I know they tried to make it, but they kind of just stopped without giving any reason. And the DJJ1, I believe it was called?
> 
> 
> 
> CRH1, 2, 3, and 4. could be counted as Chinese modifications, but these new ones we are seeing, like the CRH380A, have been developed by China. While it is obvious China has absorbed foreign technology, and undoubtedly unfairly, you can't deny that trains like the Velaro 380 are still in development while the CRH380A are operating... hard to steal from someone while they're still inventing it.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, I'm confused. If "Koreans did play by the terms of contract", why would Alstom be "silent on KTX-II"? You imply some kind of absorption as we see in China.
> And the part about "Shinkansen and CRH" strikes me as wrong- Shinkansen was exported to China and Taiwan while CRH is looking like it's going to be exported to everyone and their brother.
> 
> 
> When you say "based on their ignorance of Asian cultures" you seem to imply Asian cultures are okay with this type of "digestion", yet they had "relatively positive experiences in Korea". You're confusing me here, unless you're trying to say they over-generalized.
> 
> 
> 
> And they should. :cheers:


Chinese are completely playing by the rules. *Otherwise both Kawazaki and Siemens would have stopped cooperating with them.* Everyone doing business in China is happy. Ask Kawasaki, Siemens or Bombardier, they are all making tones of money thanks to massive and cutting edge high speed rail network under construction in China. 5 years ago they could have not even dreamed such orders. It is only some sour grapes who are jeaolous or lose their chance to enter the market (alstom and some wierd people around called sinophobics) cannot digest this. 

And at the end it is only expected that China will lead high speed technology from now on: they have the infrastructure, technology, will and money.


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## K_

foxmulder said:


> And at the end it is only expected that China will lead high speed technology from now on: they have the infrastructure, technology, will and money.


We will see if this is indeed what happens, but I don't see why this scenario should be a worrying one, as some people seem to imply. A world with a prosperous, advanced China in it will be a better one.


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## maldini

The Koreans bragged about their copycat French trains and tried to bash the newer and better indigenous Chinese designs, because of sour grapes reasons. Everything that the Chinese did is within intellectual property rights.

Korea has yet to produce an indigenous bullet train design.

The Chinese can now sell their own indigenous designs anywhere in the world. The Japanese and Germans have no complain about the new indigenous Chinese designs.

But the Korean nationalists have this inferiority complex and fear of losing potential market share to the Chinese, then frantically bashed the Chinese indigenous design, thereby embarrassing the Koreans themselves.


----------



## HyperMiler

foxmulder said:


> Chinese are completely playing by the rules.


Whose rule? Chinese rule? Sure.



> *Otherwise both Kawazaki and Siemens would have stopped cooperating with them.*


Did Kawasaki and Siemens cooperate on CRH380 series? Why are their names not listed while Bombardier is clearly listed as the developer of CRH380C?



> Everyone doing business in China is happy. Ask Kawasaki, Siemens or Bombardier


Sure. http://in.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-51782020101002



> Feelings are running so high that the heads of German industrial giants *Siemens and BASF publicly complained about an uneven playing field in China in the presence of Premier Wen Jiabao* back in July.
> 
> *General Electric Chief Executive Jeffrey Immelt made similar comments* in private that found their way into the press.





> It is only some sour grapes who are jeaolous or lose their chance to enter the market (alstom and some wierd people around called sinophobics) cannot digest this.


Actually Alstom turned down China's request to sell them AGV, citing piracy concerns.


----------



## greenlion

> Did Kawasaki and Siemens cooperate on CRH380 series? Why are their names not listed while Bombardier is clearly listed as the developer of CRH380C?


according to financial times report on october 8,2010, which had posted by other members earlier, CSR nologer co-operate with Kawasaki on HSR technology

http://www.ftchinese.com/story/001034854/en?page=1



> Luo Bin, vice-chief engineer at CSR Sifang’s Technology Development Centre, explains that *his company is no longer co-operating with KHI, from which it bought the original technology for trains able to travel at up to 200km/h*. “This is an innovative design based on the technology we had already digested,” Mr Luo says, gesturing at the sleek new machine sitting on the test tracks. “This is completely the result of our autonomous design. It’s got nothing to do with Bombardier or Siemens. It’s got nothing at all to do with Shinkansen.”


and Bombardier is a different story, because the BST company that manufacturer CRH1 series and CRH380C series is actually a Chinese-Canadian Equity Joint Ventures, with Bombardier and CSR each holds 50% of the shares. Zefiro 250 and Zefiro 380 are actually special design for China


----------



## hkhui

This was FT's response to the men in your article, HyperMiler. 



> Wen calls bluff of moaning multinationals
> By Geoff Dyer in Beijing
> Published: July 20 2010 18:09 | Last updated: July 20 2010 18:09
> 
> Beware the wrath of a corporate titan scorned. A year ago, the bosses of the world’s largest companies oozed with praise for China’s handling of the global crisis. “Man, these guys are good,” Jeff Immelt, head of GE, told an audience at West Point.
> 
> Maybe it is the summer weather, but when the subject of Beijing comes up these days, multinationals seem to get hot under the collar. Mr Immelt confessed at a dinner in Rome earlier this month: “I am not sure that in the end they want any of us to win, or any of us to be successful.”
> 
> At the weekend, Jürgen Hambrecht, chief executive of German chemicals group BASF, and another corporate leader who has assiduously courted China, told Wen Jiabao, premier, that Beijing’s current approach to foreign companies “does not exactly correspond to our views of a partnership”.
> 
> According to reporters present, the exchange was so sharp that Mr Wen asked his German visitor to “calm down”.
> 
> Clearly, something has changed for many multinationals in China, even if there are few obvious new policies to explain the shift. In the technology sector, Beijing wants to use new “encryption” rules to get companies to hand over core software, while foreign companies are also hit by its public procurement policies and weak protection of intellectual property.
> 
> Some multinationals say they are getting a rougher ride from Chinese bureaucrats, despite all the hours spent courting them at banquets or making painfully polite speeches. Others complain that while their business is expanding, it is well short of expectations or the growth in their market.
> 
> *Chinese companies are also getting better, fast. Although few are close to building international consumer brands, many Chinese groups are winning global success in markets for, say, power equipment, or machine tools or locomotives. It is no surprise complaints are coming from industrial groups such as GE and Siemens.*
> 
> And in truth, China has always been a difficult place for foreign companies – and for local private businesses. The difference is that China is no longer a project for the future: it is so central to the prospects of many multinationals that routine difficulties and frustrations are top of the in-tray of the companies’ senior executives.
> 
> *For all the obstacles, however, it is hard for multinationals to act too surprised. As Mr Immelt told his audience at West Point last year, China’s leaders “do exactly what they say they will do”. And one of the clearest objectives for the past three decades has been to leverage access to its vast market into technology transfers by foreign companies.*
> 
> Nor is this some dastardly Chinese plan. Plenty of other nations have used a mixture of subsidies, tariffs and technology policies to try to kick-start their industrialisation including Japan, South Korea and – whisper this softly! – Germany and the US.
> 
> Ultimately, multinationals have only one real source of leverage – their investments. Foreign factories have played a key role in boosting Chinese productivity, bringing not only technology, but also skills, management techniques and international best practices. All the things, indeed, that China still needs to keep modernising its economy.
> 
> Beijing hopes it can have it both ways, using policy to boost its own companies while receiving new foreign factories. At a now infamous meeting last year in Brussels, Wang Qishan, vice-premier, dismissed complaints from a group of European executives. “You are going to invest there anyway,” he said. And he was right. Even with the crisis, foreign direct investment to China jumped 19.6 per cent in the first half of this year. China is essential to many industries, either because of the depth of its supplier networks or the size of its market.
> 
> However, there are also plenty of companies that have realistic alternatives for new facilities. And if Beijing saw that foreign investment really was dropping off, the bureaucracy would be very worried. Multinationals have a choice, therefore. They can complain as loud as they like about Chinese industrial policies, but if they continue to behave as if there is no alternative, Beijing will keep calling their bluff.


----------



## wharton2010

hyper miller is a "prominent" troll on CRH threads, like Onn, who was a "prominent" troll on China skyscrapers.


----------



## foxmulder

K_ said:


> We will see if this is indeed what happens, but I don't see why this scenario should be a worrying one, as some people seem to imply. A world with a prosperous, advanced China in it will be a better one.


And great scenery for railway fans. Thanks to China, people in developing countries will have access to high speed rail comfort, too, in my opinion.


----------



## arriaca

HyperMiler said:


> To "obtain" tech from as many foreign train makers as possible.
> 
> 
> France and Germany have indigenous high speed rail technology, China and Spain don't and are foreign vendor reliant. You have a multi-vendor situation when you depend on foreigners for technology.


You can learn somethings about Spanish trains in this thread http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1105817

*Spanish High Speed Trains*

*By Talgo*

Talgo Avril 

Renfe S 112

Renfe S 102

Renfe S 130

*By CAF*

Oaris

Renfe S 120 / Turkish HST


----------



## foxmulder

sorry double post


----------



## HyperMiler

hkhui said:


> Plenty of other nations have used a mixture of subsidies, tariffs and technology policies to try to kick-start their industrialisation including Japan, South Korea and – whisper this softly! – Germany and the US.


The difference is that Japan, Korea, Germany and the US industrial policies do not include willful theft and misappropriation of foreign intellectual property.

These countries are happy to learn from others, but what they sell is their own intellectual property that would withstand legal challenges in the US and European courts. China is a different story, where it is the state that is involved in engineering knock offs that include not only bullet trains, but fighter jets and spaceships too.

Heck, Chinese would even produce a knock off UFO if one crashlanded somewhere in China.


----------



## Luli Pop

HyperMiler said:


> The difference is that Japan, Korea, Germany and the US industrial policies do not include willful theft and misappropriation of foreign intellectual property.
> 
> Heck, Chinese would even produce a knock off UFO if one crashlanded somewhere in China.


yeahh!
remember the US just kidnapped German cientists...

regarding the China made UFO, point me in the waiting list!
I want an affordable high tech UFO also!


----------



## hmmwv

I wonder why the VIP "suites" are not fully enclosed, you can't expect much privacy when people can still overhear you talking.


----------



## Ariel74

They really need to work on cabin design. What's the deal with the half enclosed compartments??? and the red seats.... uke:


----------



## Taller Better

People, please. LET THE OLD FIGHT DROP. I've had to delete two more references to it. Let's move on as no one wants to get an infraction, do they? Thank you.


----------



## sotavento

crazyalex said:


> China high speed rail will be better than Europe
> 
> I know most European won't agree with me :lol:


^^ There are a lot of arguments in favour and against any of those oposing options:


- 2/3 of europe has no need for HSR at all ... 
- europe is not a flat grid of metropolis without boundaries
- most distances betweeen major cities in europe range from 50 to 200km only ... 

^^ So theres not a real NEED for over 200km/h running in most cases. unno:


- china has 20 or 30 metropolis over 1 milllion spaced evenly some 300km betweeen them in a seemingly grid pattern 
- 1100km from HArbin to Beijing
- 1100km from Beijing to Shanghai
- 1200km from Shanghai to Guangzhou
- need to say more ??? 



China 1230 HS trains in 2010 (in service or ordered) 
Europe = how many trains suitable to 200km/h or more ??? 

DB has some 259 HS Trains and some 240 >200km/h locomotives (half the ICE network mileage allows 200km/h running)
Renfe(Spain) has some 260 HS Trains plus 103 >200km/h locomotives
SNCF(france) has some 450 TGV plus 57 200km/h Trains (160? duplex,55 on order) and 330 >200km/h locomotives


Nevermind these numbers ... the rest of european railways all put together only have another 400 or 500 trainsets capable of >200km/h ... this in an area roughly the size of china with only 500 million people.

Add to this some thousand trains capable of 160km/h of course.

Bot the difference is purelly on the DENSITY of the networks ... you wont be seeing paralel HSL only 30/50km apart in china anytime soon ... there are a few already in europe. :cheers:

If on the other hand we speak about top speeds ... one must remeber that 1/2 the routes in Europe and Japan were built some 50 , 100 or even 150 years ago and continuously upgraded up to 200/250/275 km/h ... only few were built from scratch to "add capacity" to the old routes. :cheers:


In the end it's always better when we see a completelly new route and trains built to the latest standards like china is doing. 

CRH380 looks great by the way. :cheers:


----------



## sotavento

dumbfword said:


> Doesn't Deutsche Bahn pretty much only buy Siemens high speed trains?


Old ICE trains were built by a lot of companies wich nowadays fell in the hands of both Siemens and Bombardier conglomerates.

In fact even the ICE3 was 1/2 siemens and 1/2 bombardier ... that's why Siemens relaunched the product as ICE3 (to get rid of the bombardier half) and Bombardier launched the Zefiro for exactly the same purposes ... same happened with the DB12 spin-off's ...


----------



## yaohua2000

sotavento said:


> Bot the difference is purelly on the DENSITY of the networks ... you wont be seeing paralel HSL only 30/50km apart in china anytime soon ... there are a few already in europe. :cheers:


There will soon be paralleled HSL only 30/50 METERS apart in China.


----------



## fragel

yaohua2000 said:


> There will soon be paralleled HSL only 30/50 METERS apart in China.


you are referring to the Shanghai-Nanjing HSR and the Shanghai-Nanjing section on Beijing-Shanghai HSR being parallel high speed lines when the latter is operational next year, right? There are more parallel lines, but when I think '30/50 meters apart', that is the first one popping out. 

I hope they can extend the maglev from Shanghai to Hangzhou, and then we’ll have parallel HSR and maglev…


----------



## greenlion

October 24, 2010, CNR Tangshan's CRH380BL test run at Beijing circular railway


----------



## greenlion

According to IRJ, CRH380A is "China Designed" (of course it is )

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQQ/is_9_50/ai_n55394441/?tag=content;col1

International Railway Journal, Sept, 2010



> *First Chinese designed HS train breaks cover*
> 
> CSR is building a fleet of very-high-speed trains will be the first such trains built in China to use only Chinese technology. They will be launched on the new Beijing - Shanghai high-speed line, due to open next year, as well as the Beijing - Guangzhou line
> International Railway Journal, Sept, 2010
> 123Next ..CHINA'S new-generation CRH380A high-speed train has been identified as the core train for future high-speed lines like Beijing - Shanghai. CRH380A is designed to maintain a constant speed of 350km/h and a maximum of 380km/h in commercial service, although it exceeded 420km/h during test running. This will make the new train one of the fastest in commercial operation when it comes into service.
> 
> [ILLUSTRATION OMITTED]
> 
> CSR Sifang Locomotive & Rolling Stock was awarded the contract for the new-generation high-speed train by the Ministry of Railways (MOR) in 2009. The Yuan 45 billion (SUS 6.64 billion) order is for 100 16-car and 40 eight-car trains. The first train was exhibited in May at the China Railway Pavilion in the Shanghai World Expo Park (IRJ July p5).
> 
> Meanwhile an experimental CRH380A eight-car train was being tested on the China Academy of Railway Sciences experimental loop line. These tests have been completed and the train is now undergoing trial running on the Zhengzhou - Xi'an high-speed line. CSR says the tests are making good progress so far.
> 
> The first eight-car train has just rolled off the production line, and CSR will manufacture and deliver these trains in batches. According to the production plan, the first 16-car train will officially be completed in the second half of this year, and will enter service on the Beijing - Shanghai high-speed line. MOR expects this line to open during the first half of next year, but the actual date depends on construction progress.
> 
> The development of the new train started at the beginning of 2008, when CSR conducted a series of tests at speeds up to 350km/h with a CRH2 train. The development work involved experiments with models, running experiments, scientific research, and trials on four high-speed lines: Qinhuangdao - Shenyang, Beijing - Tianjin, Wuhan - Guangzhou, and Zhengzhou - Xi'an.
> 
> In all more than 1000 technical tests were conducted covering 17 specific areas such as dynamic performance, pantograph-catenary current collection, aerodynamics, and traction performance. This enabled CSR to accumulate extensive scientific test data as well as data relating to operation and maintenance. By systematically analysing the operating data, model experiments, and scientific research data, CSR discovered the relationship between the train's performance parameters and what was needed to increase the maximum speed. These results were fed into the design for the new-generation high-speed train.
> 
> To verify the quality of the design for the new high-speed train, CSR divided its design work into four categories: schematic, technical, construction, and experimentation/verification. CSR used simulation analysis as the basis for designing the train which was verified by tests and experiments. Use was also made of 3D and modeling for construction design.
> 
> In June 2009, MOR set up a team of academics and industry experts to analyse and discuss the technical scheme for the new-generation high-speed train put forward by CSR. At the analysis and discussion meeting, CSR presented more than 20 types of novel train designs and models, of which 10 were selected for further study. CSR then intensified its research to prepare for the production of the new train.
> 
> A 1:8 scale model was built and subjected to aerodynamic tests in a wind tunnel. Wind was blown at 19 different directions and eight different speeds. Noise tests were also performed in the wind tunnel.
> 
> CSR says this exhaustive process resulted in all-round innovation and an improvement in performance in 10 main areas. These include style, air tightness, a high-speed bogie design, vibration and noise reduction, the traction system, pantograph-catenary current collection, the brake system, and passenger interface.
> 
> CSR says that despite maximising the running speed, the train has met its different dynamic performance indexes. As far as core safety indexes are concerned, the derailment coefficient and the rate of wheel load reduction are far lower than the limits set.
> 
> The main systems and parts used on the new train have proven performance and running experience. Strength tests and fatigue experiments have been conducted on parts connected with running safety in accordance with relevant standards and criteria. CSR says the train has a high reliability index and its mean distance between failures has surpassed 1 million km.
> 
> By reducing sources of noise and adopting new sound absorbing and insulating materials, CSR has been able to control noise inside the train. In addition, it has optimised the bogie to match the performance of the body and improved the train's interior structure to improve the car body's natural frequency, which helps reduce the body's structural vibration during the high-speed running and improve ride comfort.
> 
> CSR optimised the car body's air tightness, enabling the train body air tightness to decrease from 4000Pa to 1000Pa in more than 180 seconds. The pressure change rate inside the train is less than 200Pa/s, with the maximum pressure change inside the train remaining below 800Pa compared with the standard value of 1000Pa. This ensures good ride quality at high speed.
> 
> Regenerative braking should result in the energy feedback rate hitting 90%. As far as external noise is concerned, CSR has streamlined the train and optimised windows and doors to improve aerodynamic performance. The nose design of the train has a resistance coefficient of <0.13. The rear car of the train has a lift coefficient of <0.08. CSR says it has been able to reduce car body aerodynamic noise by more than 5%.
> 
> Lightweight design
> 
> CSR has adopted a lightweight design so that the maximum axieload is less than 15 tonnes. When running at 380km/h, per capita energy consumption per 100km remains below 5.2kWh.
> 
> In addition, CSR has introduced a series of resistance-reducing designs such as streamlined driving cars, fully-clad windscreen, and a smooth underfloor area, which have helped to reduce aerodynamic resistance by 6%, thereby significantly reducing energy consumption. The train is designed to achieve a high level of reliability but with low maintenance costs. All electrical equipment in the train is electromagnetically compatible, and is designed to exert little electromagnetic interference both within and outside the train. In addition, the train is equipped with a sewage collection system to ensure pollution-free discharge.
> 
> The new train has various types of accommodation to meet the demands from different classes of passengers. In addition to traditional first and second-class coaches, the train can be designed to include a compartment or an entire car for VIPs, a sightseeing area, and a dining car. All seats can rotate to face the direction of travel, and a special seat has been designed for the VIP area which is large and comfortable.
> 
> All cars have toilets and washing facilities, drinks dispensers, luggage storage, and video and TV facilities. The level of catering will be determined according to the seating capacity. There are also leisure areas such as a bar. Information services will be provided including visual displays, radio, video, and audio.
> 
> CSR has high hopes for its new high-speed train. "We have realised the transition from made in China to created in China," says Mr Zhen Changhong, president of CSR. This year Zhen expects CSR to move into third place among the world's largest producers of motive power and rolling stock, and to be number one by 2012. While this is being fuelled mainly by China's huge home market, CSR expects exports to jump from 10% of turnover today to 20% in the future. IRJ
> 
> COPYRIGHT 2010 Simmons-Boardman Publishing Corporation
> COPYRIGHT 2010 Gale, Cengage Learning


----------



## HyperMiler

wharton2010 said:


> You are right. hyper miller has a lot inferiority complex. Remember from my college history/east asian studies class, it's logical that Koreans have a lot inferiority complex in front of Japanese or Chinese.
> 
> Even thou I have never taken any high speed train in any of Japan, China or Korea, just looking at crappy shape especially the interior of Korean KTX here http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=756946 compare to Shinkansen and CRH, I conclude that I do not want ride any Korean train.


I reported above thread to mods. I am taking the mod's advice and reporting all trolling from now on.

Let's wait and see if mods will honor their promise of dealing with trolls.


----------



## maldini

greenlion said:


> According to IRJ, CRH380A is "China Designed" (of course it is )
> 
> http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQQ/is_9_50/ai_n55394441/?tag=content;col1
> 
> International Railway Journal, Sept, 2010


The International Railway Journal is a very respectable and credible source.


----------



## cmoonflyer

SHANGHAI, Oct. 26 -- China put another high-speed railway into operation Tuesday morning, which links Shanghai, the country's economic hub, and Hangzhou, capital of east China's Zhejiang Province.

Two bullet trains equipped with China's CRH380A system jumpstarted simultaneously at 9:00 a.m. Tuesday from Shanghai Hongqiao Station and Hangzhou Station, marking the inaugural of the 202-km Shanghai-Hangzhou high-speed railway.

The new railway, with a maximum operational speed of 350 kilometers per hour (kmph), shortens the trip time between the two terminuses to 45 minutes from 78 minutes.


----------



## HyperMiler

maldini said:


> The International Railway Journal is a very respectable and credible source.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...-mqMng?docId=134ddfabd9b64bcf9b3329bfba277511



> Although China holds the patents on the technology, design and equipment used by the CRH380 train, *some in the industry question the degree to which China is justified in claiming the latest technology as its own.
> 
> "Everybody knows that a lot of the core technology is European,"* Michael Clausecker, director general of Unife, the Association of the European Rail Industry, said in a recent interview.


----------



## dumbfword

HyperMiler said:


> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...-mqMng?docId=134ddfabd9b64bcf9b3329bfba277511


:cheers:


----------



## fragel

troll alert, troll alert!! oh wait, too late...

Previously the trolls claimed that 380A was a rip-off of Japanese KAWASAKI train, now they are saying the core technology of CRH 380 is European. Be a little consistent when trolling ok?


----------



## hmmwv

A Hangzhou TV station did a chase of the Shanghai-Hangzhou line with a ultra light chopper, but that poor little thing probably can't even go above 200kph.


----------



## fragel

^^ lol, I just watched that video(link), although it is somehow pointless(like you said that chopper is pretty slow anyway), it gives a good view of the running train from the above


----------



## Bandit

The envious nationalists trolls who can only dream contradicting themselves again. Yes, didn't you guys say it was stolen from the Japanese? Now the Europeans? 

:cheers:
:cheers:
:cheers:
:cheers:
:cheers:


----------



## HyperMiler

Bandit said:


> The envious nationalists trolls who can only dream contradicting themselves again.


I reported above post as a flame bait.


----------



## HyperMiler

fragel said:


> Previously the trolls claimed that 380A was a rip-off of Japanese KAWASAKI train, now they are saying the core technology of CRH 380 is European. Be a little consistent when trolling ok?


I think he was talking about CRH380B. 

But CRH380A does seem to have a Velaro bogie under a Shinkansen body.


----------



## Bandit

HyperMiler said:


> I reported above post as a flame bait.


Did I hurt your petty nationalist feelings by pointing out your contradictions? The troll wanting his contradictions not called out. What a joke.

:cheers:
:cheers:
:cheers:
:cheers:
:cheers:


----------



## maldini

The Chinese did a very good job on CRH380A and CRH380B. During the test runs, they loaded the trains up with all kinds of sophisticated equipments and every parameter was tested to be very safe.

The Chinese gained experience from the Europeans and came up with this indigenous effort, which should be congratulated.


----------



## fragel

HyperMiler said:


> I think he was talking about CRH380B.


In what universe was he talking about CRH380B?

This is your original reply to maldini, please let us know who you think was talking about CRH380B? maldini or greenlion?

you don't need to change the subject, just admit you were in such a hurry trolling here that you didn't even read their posts.



HyperMiler said:


> maldini said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greenlion said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to IRJ, CRH380A is "China Designed" (of course it is )
> 
> http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQQ/is_9_50/ai_n55394441/?tag=content;col1
> 
> International Railway Journal, Sept, 2010
> 
> 
> 
> The International Railway Journal is a very respectable and credible source.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...-mqMng?docId=134ddfabd9b64bcf9b3329bfba277511
> 
> 
> 
> Although China holds the patents on the technology, design and equipment used by the CRH380 train, some in the industry question the degree to which China is justified in claiming the latest technology as its own.
> 
> "Everybody knows that a lot of the core technology is *European*," Michael Clausecker, director general of Unife, the Association of the European Rail Industry, said in a recent interview.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## deepblue01

Regardless of who designed these trains, its now built in China, used by the Chinese people and will benefit their society as a whole. I really do hope they deploy more of these trains, especially around the Guangdong area.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

deepblue01 said:


> Regardless of who designed these trains, its now built in China, used by the Chinese people and will benefit their society as a whole. I really do hope they deploy more of these trains, especially around the Guangdong area.


The only high-speed railway in Guangdong now is Guangzhou-Wuhan.

When is the due date of opening for high speed railways Guangzhou-Shenzhen? Shenzhen-Xiamen? Guangzhou-Zhuhai? Guangzhou-Nanning? Guangzhou-Zhenjiang?


----------



## Dase

Reading the last posts I can just state that our fellow Chinese members have a strange definition of discussion culture. On the other hand, where should such knowledge stem from?


----------



## HyperMiler

maldini said:


> The Chinese did a very good job on CRH380A and CRH380B. During the test runs, they loaded the trains up with all kinds of sophisticated equipments and every parameter was tested to be very safe.


Foreign train vendors also do that, except that they test for 3 years instead of 6 months like Chinese do.


----------



## HyperMiler

fragel said:


> In what universe was he talking about CRH380B?


Two out of three CRH380 models, B & C, are of European origin. Shinkansen derived A also has what appears to be bogie from Velaro.

This is why Michael Clausecker, director general of Unife, said CRH380's core technology of European origin and not of Chinese effort.


----------



## HyperMiler

Bandit said:


> Did I hurt your petty nationalist feelings by pointing out your contradictions? The troll wanting his contradictions not called out. What a joke.
> 
> :cheers:
> :cheers:
> :cheers:
> :cheers:
> :cheers:


Above post is reported as trolling.


----------



## HyperMiler

Another article on European view on CRH380

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d9b60a40-dfc8-11df-bed9-00144feabdc0,s01=1.html



> Multinationals: Pie is growing, but foreigners’ share is shrinking
> By Jamil Anderlini
> 
> Published: October 27 2010 10:45 | Last updated: October 27 2010 10:45
> 
> ..
> 
> One reason for the rising discontent in some western boardrooms is that many of the contracts companies such as GE, Siemens and BASF expected to get in China are now being snatched up by increasingly competitive and successful Chinese counterparts.
> 
> *The Chinese rail industry provides a worrying case study for multinationals in many other industrial sectors.*
> 
> The government has played European, Japanese and North American rail producers off against each other by holding out the promise of the world’s largest rail market *in exchange for transfer of foreign technology which Chinese companies then “digest” and “rebrand”.*
> 
> The multinational corporations have been shocked by how quickly China has emerged as a global competitor, *using largely foreign technology to offer competing bids* for high-speed rail contracts from Saudi Arabia to Brazil to California.


----------



## hmmwv

fragel said:


> ^^ lol, I just watched that video(link), although it is somehow pointless(like you said that chopper is pretty slow anyway), it gives a good view of the running train from the above


That's a small ultra light helicopter and its top speed is probably the same as a Camry. On the other hand, the fastest conventional helicopter in the world, the G-Lynx, set a record of 401kph. So currently there is no helicopter in China that can compete with the CRH380A in a drag race.


----------



## fragel

^^lol indeed like a camry, guess that is the best chopper the TV station can afford.

anyway, found a few videos about the train on the opening day of Shanghai-Hangzhou HSR. Most are news reports, probably because passengers are still uploading their videos.

BBC Chinese




 
CCTV





Here is one taken by a passenger getting on the train at the intermediate Tongxiang Station. It is uploaded on youku.com, so it might be slow.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjE3ODAwMTcy.html


----------



## Hidden Dragon

HyperMiler said:


> Another article on European view on CRH380
> 
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d9b60a40-dfc8-11df-bed9-00144feabdc0,s01=1.html


If your goverment did the same thing, would you have the urge to seek justice for those European and Japanese companies?

As a Chinese, I am happy that our government can have the finesse to deal with those companies. Those companies transferred their technology under contract, not under gunpoint.


----------



## Bandit

HyperMiler said:


> Another article on European view on CRH380
> 
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d9b60a40-dfc8-11df-bed9-00144feabdc0,s01=1.html


Does that mean the Japanese stole their train technology from the Europeans? You can't claim it was from Japan and then now it's European. :lol: Look at all that hypocrisy.


----------



## HyperMiler

http://world.huanqiu.com/roll/2010-10/1204676.html

CCP newspaper Huanqiu is reporting that Japan's Sankei Shinbun declared CRH380A to be a Shanzhai Shinkansen. Chinese government is of course denying CRH380A being Shanzhai.

For non-Chinese readers, here is an English version.

http://justrecently.wordpress.com/



> The Japanese media are maliciously belittling the Shanghai-Hangzhou high-speed railway (恶意贬低沪杭高铁), referring to it as a Shinkansen knock-off or shanzhai version (新干线山寨版) Huanqiu Shibao reports. The malicious Japanese media come in the shape of the Sankei Shimbun (产经新闻) as quoted by Huanqiu’s correspondent Wang Huan (王欢) today. According to Huan, Sankei Shimbun writes that the high-speed CRH380A train which takes passengers from Shanghai to Hangzhou (Zhejiang Province) within 45 minutes and was excessivley praised by the Chinese as “home-made” (中国人“标榜”新型CRH380A列车为“国产”), was in fact imitated from Japan in terms of technology and design (不论技术还是外形设计，都在“模仿”日本). While it was an investment for further economic growth within the Shanghai-Zhejiang region, it didn’t help to stop growing social disparities, Wang quotes the Japanese paper. Wang’s report contains two photos, one of the Shanghai-Hangzhou high-speed train (沪杭高铁), and one of the Shinkansen (新干线) respectively. The connection between Shanghai and Hangzhou was officially inaugurated on Tuesday.


----------



## HyperMiler

Hidden Dragon said:


> As a Chinese, I am happy that our government can have the finesse to deal with those companies.


That's a short term gain at the expense of a long-term loss.



> Those companies transferred their technology under contract, not under gunpoint.


Yes, but the contract reads that transferred technology must be used only to license produce CRH models within China, all other use violates the term of license.

There is a deep misunderstanding among Chinese that licensed technology transfer means an unrestricted free use, or even an ownership of technology. That's not the case.


----------



## Bandit

Just like invasion and slavery is liberation from Western colonialism as written in history books taught to students today?


----------



## greenlion

CRH380BL picture, thanks to ourail poster yzbest007


----------



## Geography

What is that in the nose of the train? A debris-finding radar? Or just a spring to cushion low-speed collisions?


----------



## dumbfword

Geography said:


> What is that in the nose of the train? A debris-finding radar? Or just a spring to cushion low-speed collisions?


Train coupler I believe. Does China plan to couple two 16 train sets?


----------



## Luli Pop

Bird01 said:


> I did some search and found following interest claims:
> 
> According to the CEO, Xiaogang Zhao, of CSR (China South Rail Corp) :
> 
> 1.Their 350-380km/h train is not related to the original design of E2 from Japan.
> 2.Over 10K engineers, designers were working on the project day and night, even on Saturdays and Sundays for 2 years.
> 3.The bogie is redesigned to support high speed. The new train's derail coefficient has been reduced by .37 from .73 of old train. The new train running at higher speed is safer than the old train running at lower speed.
> 4.The noisy is at 67dB when running at 350km/h, which is similar to the old trains running at 250km/h.
> 5.The strength of train is designed at 6000MPa, which is 50% higher than international standard of 4000MPa.


WOW!!!


----------



## Epi

Mika Montwald said:


> ^^
> 
> *It takes so much Hi-Tech expertise to increase the HST speed for every 10 km/hr on from the little nut and bolt to the ballast less HSR track. *
> *Otherwise, the French, Germans, and Japan had already done that a long time ago. oke:
> *
> 
> *What about the Numero Uno Supercomputer on Earth (TIANHE 1A) who
> just knocked the pants off Americanese (Cray_Jaguar) while eating the dust left by (TIANHE 1A)?*
> 
> *Get this: (TIANHE 1A) is 43% faster than the Americanese (Cray_Jaguar) :bash:
> *
> --------------------------
> 
> *Are you going to say that --- Oh yeah, China just tweak the GPU & CPU by overclocking them and
> ignoring the Fire Safety hazard. And, (TIANHE 1A) will blow-up anytime ??*
> 
> 
> --------------------------
> 
> *Next time before you comment on anything about HST or any China related matter, please perform a proper due-diligence personally. *
> *Stressing the word: Personally*
> *Otherwise, you are an embarrassment for being xxxxese Ignoramus. :storm:
> *
> 
> 
> *Do read this link: Post # 180 by GreenLion*
> *An article by International Railway Journal*
> 
> *URL: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=65928355&highlight=#post65928355*
> 
> --------------------------
> 
> *NOTE:*
> 
> *Canada can never afford to build Ballast less HST track for a long time to come for Toronto -- Montreal corridor, let alone from Vancouver to Halifax. *
> *Especially if Canuckese are always brown-nosing its Southern neighbor and spending money unnecessarily on ice hockey and beer.*


Kind of an ignorant comment altogether and a completely troll post. Moderators?

If you actually read my post, you'd notice that I was actually complimenting China being able to do such great projects that Canada never could for most of it.

For the record, I'm actually Chinese and not born in Canada.


----------



## maldini

SamuraiBlue said:


> Although completely off topic the TIANHE 1A is made of 100% western technology (GPU by NVIDIA CPU by ATI) utilizing CUDA and other NVIDIA proprietorial technology.


Please update your knowledge.
The Tianhe-1A also contains 2048 NUDT FT-1000 Chinese designed CPU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianhe-I#Tianhe-1A


----------



## greenlion

so according to CSR, IRJ and Bird01:

As CSR claimed, the overall design of CRH380A reflects ten system innovations.

low-resistance streamline head, The nose design of the train has a resistance coefficient of <0.13.

vibration mode system matching, it has optimised the bogie to match the performance of the body and improved the train's interior structure to improve the car body's natural frequency, which helps reduce the body's structural vibration during the high-speed running and improve ride comfort.

high-air-tightness body, enabling the train body air tightness to decrease from 4000Pa to 1000Pa in more than 180 seconds. The pressure change rate inside the train is less than 200Pa/s, with the maximum pressure change inside the train remaining below 800Pa compared with the standard value of 1000Pa. This ensures good ride quality at high speed.

safe and reliable high-speed bogie, The bogie is redesigned to support high speed. The new train's derail coefficient is 0.34 at speed of 386.3km/h while the maximun derail coefficient of CRH2A is 0.73. 

advanced noise control technology, By reducing sources of noise and adopting new sound absorbing and insulating materials, CSR has been able to control noise inside the train,The noisy is at 67dB - 69db when running at 350km/h, which is similar to the CRH2A running at 250km/h.

high-performance traction system, with YQ-365 motors manufacturer by CSR zhuzhou electric co.,Ltd and CI11 Traction converter manufacturer by Zhuzhou times electric co.,Ltd.

high-speed dual-pantograph current-receiving performance.

safe and environment-friendly brake system,regenerative braking should result in the energy feedback rate hitting 90%.

human-oriented passenger interface.

outstanding intelligent performance.


----------



## Taizu

SamuraiBlue said:


> Although completely off topic the TIANHE 1A is made of 100% western technology (GPU by NVIDIA CPU by ATI) utilizing CUDA and other NVIDIA proprietorial technology.


You forgot to mention that the interconnect system of the Tianhe 1A is entirely Chinese developed which runs faster than an infiniband interconnect.

Developing an interconnect system has been the greatest bottleneck in the history of parallel supercomputer performance.


----------



## yaohua2000

Please stop talking about Tianhe. Where's the moderator??


----------



## Hubert Pollak

greenlion said:


> so according to CSR, IRJ and Bird01:
> 
> As CSR claimed, the overall design of CRH380A reflects ten system innovations.
> 
> low-resistance streamline head, The nose design of the train has a resistance coefficient of <0.13.
> 
> vibration mode system matching, it has optimised the bogie to match the performance of the body and improved the train's interior structure to improve the car body's natural frequency, which helps reduce the body's structural vibration during the high-speed running and improve ride comfort.
> 
> high-air-tightness body, enabling the train body air tightness to decrease from 4000Pa to 1000Pa in more than 180 seconds. The pressure change rate inside the train is less than 200Pa/s, with the maximum pressure change inside the train remaining below 800Pa compared with the standard value of 1000Pa. This ensures good ride quality at high speed.
> 
> safe and reliable high-speed bogie, The bogie is redesigned to support high speed. The new train's derail coefficient is 0.34 at speed of 386.3km/h while the maximun derail coefficient of CRH2A is 0.73.
> 
> advanced noise control technology, By reducing sources of noise and adopting new sound absorbing and insulating materials, CSR has been able to control noise inside the train,The noisy is at 67dB - 69db when running at 350km/h, which is similar to the CRH2A running at 250km/h.
> 
> high-performance traction system, with YQ-365 motors manufacturer by CSR zhuzhou electric co.,Ltd and CI11 Traction converter manufacturer by Zhuzhou times electric co.,Ltd.
> 
> high-speed dual-pantograph current-receiving performance.
> 
> safe and environment-friendly brake system,regenerative braking should result in the energy feedback rate hitting 90%.
> 
> human-oriented passenger interface.
> 
> outstanding intelligent performance.


China is becoming most innovative country in rail industry. I am waiting for CRH500.

I hope that someday this train would go from China to Europe by tran-Asian high speed rail. It's not a joke China just gave it 45 bln $ loan to Turkey to build high-speed silk route it in Turkey. The same agreement with Bulgaria is in final phase.


----------



## hmmwv

Mind you that supercomputers like Tianhe is what we need to design a state of the art HSR system.


----------



## foxmulder

Hubert Pollak said:


> China is becoming most innovative country in rail industry. I am waiting for CRH500.
> 
> I hope that someday this train would go from China to Europe by tran-Asian high speed rail. It's not a joke China just gave it 45 bln $ loan to Turkey to build high-speed silk route it in Turkey. The same agreement with Bulgaria is in final phase.


Well, the loan to turkey is smt like 28 billion but nevertheless it is huge by any means. I believe it is highly probable that we can see CRH380s in Turkey in coming years.


----------



## Taller Better

yaohua2000 said:


> Please stop talking about Tianhe. Where's the moderator??


Please keep on topic, folks. Thank you.


----------



## aleantik

What real data do we know about de CRH380A ? because we´re talking if it is a beautifull train and so that, but is there any more especific data, tech info and most important tech drawings about the train ? 
I´ve read about the origin of the bogies, in some photos the roof tails seems to be so similar to a japanese HST model, What about the power electronic transformers, pantographs etc.. In westerns manufactures it´s normal to show some tech data in the launching of a new High Speed Train. I really can´t say something about this train because there is no available real data of it, or that´s what I thing at least.


----------



## greenlion

CNR Changchun Railway Vehicle designed a new type of High Speed train front, the official news was published by November 2 2010. and the work is completed.the outlook is described as cheetah by the news.

http://www.chinacnr.com/272-619-3429.aspx

according to rumors on different Chinese forums, this new design will be used on CNR Changchun Railway Vehicle version of CRH380B, so the CRH380B will have two different shapes???


----------



## greenlion

just added the folloeing paragraph to wikipedia,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#Localization_and_increasing_speed

sorry for my poor English, I believe I've missed some important part, so let's take a look at it and consider what kind of infomations can be added in addition.



> Localization and increasing speed
> Digestion and re-innovation is one of the major consideration of the Chinese MOR when China decided to import foreign technologies.
> 
> With the technologies achieved from foreign companies, Chinese factories are able to produce components of the vehicles. Mitsubishi Electric transfer MT205 traction motor and ATM9 transformer to CSR Zhuzhou Electric, Hitachi transfer YJ92A traction motor to Yongji Electric, Alstom transfer YJ87A Traction motor to Yongji Electric, Siemens transfer TSG series pantograph to Zhuzhou Gofront Electric. most of the component of the CRH trains manufacturer by Chinese companies are from local suppliers, few parts of them are imported.
> 
> During June 2005 and September 2005, The Chinese Ministry of Railways launched bidding for High speed trains with a top speed of 350 km/h. as most of the main High Speed Rail lines are designed with top speed of 350km/h or higher. Along with CRH3C, produce by Siemens and CNR Tangshan. CSR Sifang bid 60 sets of CRH2C.
> 
> Within two years of co-operate with Kawasaki to produce 60 CRH2A sets. CSR had “digested” the technology required for their manufacture. [26]. since then CSR is no longer co-operating with Kawasaki.[27] Starting from 2008, all CRH2 trains, includes CRH2B, CRH2C and CRH2E were designed and manufactured under key technology developments made by Sifang without Kawasaki. according to CSR president Zhang Chenghong, CSR "made the bold move of forming a systemic development platform for high-speed locomotives and further upgrading its design and manufacturing technology. Later, we began to independently develop high-speed CRH trains with a maximum velocity of 300-350 kilometers per hour, which eventually rolled off the production line in December 2007." [28]
> 
> In order to provide higher capacity and more comfortable service in the Jinghu Railway, as the travel time from Beijing to Shanghai is around 10 hours under top speed of 200 km/h in the upgrade railway. on October, 2007, the MOR ordered 70 16-car trainsets from CSR Sifang and BST, includes 10 sets of CRH1B and 20 sets of CRH2B seating trains, 20 sets of CRH1E and 20 sets of CRH2E sleeper trains.
> 
> Technical support is one of the most important factor to make Bombardier the first and only company who has a Chinese-foreign joint venture manufacturing railway passenger cars and rolling stock in China. the BST company was established by 1998, as an excellent example of foreign technology applied to the renewal of state-owned enterprises in China. in a interview with Zhang Jianwei, President and Chief Country Representative of Bombardier China, he explained Bombardier's policy in China is "to transfer whatever Bombardier have in the world to the joint venture, to transfer what China market needs without requirement".[29] not like other series who has prototype imported from other countries, all of the CRH1 trains are manufactured in Qingdao.
> 
> Construction of China and World's first ever high speed rail with designed speed 380 km/h, the Beijing - Shanghai high speed rail, began on April 18, 2008.at the same year, the MOR lauched three project CRH1-350 (Bombardier and BST, designated as CRH380C/CL),CRH2-350 (CSR, designated as CRH380A/AL),and CRH3-350 (CNR and Siemens, designated as CRH380B/BL), to develop new generation of CRH trains with top operation speed 380km/h. a total of 400 new generation trains was ordered. CRH380A come into regular service at the Shanghai-Hangzhou High speed rail by October 26, 2010. which is the first high speed train developed by China[30].
> 
> On October 19, 2010, the MOR declared China has begun research and development on a new "super-speed" railway technology, will increase the average speed of trains to over 500 kilometers per hour.[31]


----------



## Nozumi 300

greenlion said:


> CNR Changchun Railway Vehicle designed a new type of High Speed train front, the official news was published by November 2 2010. and the work is completed.the outlook is described as cheetah by the news.
> 
> http://www.chinacnr.com/272-619-3429.aspx
> 
> according to rumors on different Chinese forums, this new design will be used on CNR Changchun Railway Vehicle version of CRH380B, so the CRH380B will have two different shapes???


Once again thanks for posting. This new design looks kinda cute ^.^b 
Maybe it'll be the future mascot of CRH :cheers:?


----------



## pcrail

> so the CRH380B will have two different shapes???


I do not think so. The new design is for CRH380B, the Velaro design is for CRH380BL.


----------



## riles28

This past few days I read some article that CRH380 are pirate technology from Japanese shinkansen but for me it's not beacuse if we look the train the design are originally concept by the Chinese they mix the design from 2 different high speed train i think the one is from fastech 360S and from velaro because if we look the window near the driver cab and the interior of the train is very different from shinkansen because some latest shinkansen have no more dining car or any private compartment, So for me the CRH 380A are originally chinese technology.


----------



## greenlion

to those who claim CRH380A is just a copy of Japanese design, the following pictures are some of the 20 designs CSR made for CRH380A


----------



## maldini

This shows the CRH380 is indigenous Chinese design.
The Chinese can make a number of trains from each of these 20 designs.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

It begs the question, "Why did they select the one that resembles Japanese design the most?"


----------



## AlexisMD

The truth is somewhere in the middle (like always) It's not genuine Chinese and of course not a pure replica of other trains
I think it's a melting pot of Chinese technologies and Japan, Germany etc,
It's very hard to define in our days what is yours and mine in the world of globalization


----------



## gramercy

hmmwv said:


> This is crazy, I thought the 416kph record will be there for a while. I really hope no one is pushing the train too hard just to set a record.


why not, thats what records are all about


----------



## foxmulder

hmmwv said:


> This is crazy, I thought the 416kph record will be there for a while. I really hope no one is pushing the train too hard just to set a record.


Most of the time, testing means pushing it until it breaks  After these test runs, some parts may need changing.


----------



## 33Hz

Nordschleife said:


> Oh KWh, my mistake. But still, 20440KW is the maximal power, cruise at 350Km/h only need about half of that power, that's about 35KWh per person, 5 litre of diesel or 8 kilo of coal to produce that amount of power. Campare to the aeroplane, like 737, take 120 person from Shanghai to Beijing, will comsume about 4 tons of jet fuel, that's 33 litre. Let alone the energy take a person from Beijing airport to the downtown area.


What's the source for the 20440kW and the 350km/h cruise power? Most sources say 18.4MW for the 380BL.


----------



## Nordschleife

20440KW for the 380AL.
8800KW could easily get a 8 carriage train accelerate to 416 Km/h, why couldn't 10000KW to keep a 16 carriage at 350km/h since most of the drag is at the nose of the train at that speed?
Well it's a guess, which means it still has 0.13m/s^2 residual acceleration at 350km/h, kind of impossible...
Anyone could tell me the real residual acceleration at that speed of 380AL, I can't find it.


----------



## rheintram

Chinese indigenous trains are just like the Chinese "improved" version of iPods et al. Some of the technology is legally licensed, parts are stolen, some of it is truly indigenous.

Problem is: China is a huge economy and trading partner for the West. Even though they don't respect intellectual rights, the West has to shut up and deal with it, so we can keep on doing business with them. Actually it's not unheard off that Western companies have to forge joint ventures with Chinese companies that engaged in product piracy before. That way they can at least get a share of the profit that is done with the stolen IP. The downside is that we transfer technology down there and in the long run it will harm our economy.

Despite all the Chinese propaganda here, China could have never achieved its high speed rail project without massive foreign technology and help. Nevertheless it is quite impressive. Yet all these claims should be taken with caution, as China is not exactly known for being a very open society and caring much about freedom of speech and information.


----------



## hmmwv

foxmulder said:


> Most of the time, testing means pushing it until it breaks  After these test runs, some parts may need changing.


I guess what I meant is I get nervous when they kept on breaking records with unmodified (or slightly modified) trains on commercial routes, anything that goes wrong will have lasting effects for the entire line. They can, and should try to break records to push technology innovation, but do so on dedicated test rings. I understand that the current tests are done to find out the maximum operating speed of unmodified trains on commercial tracks, but the speed shouldn't exceed what they have achieved on the test tracks. Which also leads me to wonder, if they got 455kph on regular tracks, how fast can a heavily modified CRH380 go on the test ring.


----------



## Nozumi 300

rheintram said:


> Yet all these claims should be taken with caution, as China is not exactly known for being a very open society and caring much about *freedom of speech and information*.


Is this really necessary?:bash:



hmmwv said:


> I guess what I meant is I get nervous when they kept on breaking records with unmodified (or slightly modified) trains on commercial routes, anything that goes wrong will have lasting effects for the entire line. They can, and should try to break records to push technology innovation, but do so on dedicated test rings. I understand that the current tests are done to find out the maximum operating speed of unmodified trains on commercial tracks, but the speed shouldn't exceed what they have achieved on the test tracks. Which also leads me to wonder, if they got 455kph on regular tracks, how fast can a heavily modified CRH380 go on the test ring.


I don't think the test trains on the test track go anywhere near the speed they reach on the high speed lines. I haven't seen any pictures or info that theres a test track that's built like the high speed lines, so far it seems the trains are operating on regular tracks.


----------



## 33Hz

Nordschleife said:


> 20440KW for the 380AL.
> 8800KW could easily get a 8 carriage train accelerate to 416 Km/h, why couldn't 10000KW to keep a 16 carriage at 350km/h since most of the drag is at the nose of the train at that speed?


I think that is a bit of a mis-assumption. Most of the drag is skin friction from the coaches and drag from the gaps between and under them. I read this is 90% of the drag. So a 2x longer train doubles this part of the drag.


----------



## laojang

May I add two points

1. One can argue similarly:
Despite all the US propaganda here, US could have never achieved its moon landing project without massive foreign technology and help (the chief designer of the rocket is a German who also did the V-2 rocket for the Nazis). Nevertheless it is quite impressive. 

2. The ipods are Western technology in name only, it is mainly designed by 
Asians (Indians and Chinese) who happen to live in the US.
Visit Apple co. in the bay area and take a look yourself.

Cheers,
Laojang








rheintram said:


> Chinese indigenous trains are just like the Chinese "improved" version of iPods et al. Some of the technology is legally licensed, parts are stolen, some of it is truly indigenous.
> 
> Problem is: China is a huge economy and trading partner for the West. Even though they don't respect intellectual rights, the West has to shut up and deal with it, so we can keep on doing business with them. Actually it's not unheard off that Western companies have to forge joint ventures with Chinese companies that engaged in product piracy before. That way they can at least get a share of the profit that is done with the stolen IP. The downside is that we transfer technology down there and in the long run it will harm our economy.
> 
> Despite all the Chinese propaganda here, China could have never achieved its high speed rail project without massive foreign technology and help. Nevertheless it is quite impressive. Yet all these claims should be taken with caution, as China is not exactly known for being a very open society and caring much about freedom of speech and information.


----------



## hmmwv

Nozumi 300 said:


> I don't think the test trains on the test track go anywhere near the speed they reach on the high speed lines. I haven't seen any pictures or info that theres a test track that's built like the high speed lines, so far it seems the trains are operating on regular tracks.


Right, the current test tracks are probably not straight and long enough to get to 455kph, it seems to me that at least now there is no rush in China to beat the 574kph conventional rail speed record.


----------



## Nordschleife

33Hz said:


> I think that is a bit of a mis-assumption. Most of the drag is skin friction from the coaches and drag from the gaps between and under them. I read this is 90% of the drag. So a 2x longer train doubles this part of the drag.


I am always told at high speed double the speed require eightfold the power, well, for a ball, not a train...


----------



## makita09

^^ Exactly. And that is due to wind resistance.


----------



## Bandit

rheintram said:


> Chinese indigenous trains are just like the Chinese "improved" version of iPods et al. Some of the technology is legally licensed, parts are stolen, some of it is truly indigenous.
> 
> Problem is: China is a huge economy and trading partner for the West. Even though they don't respect intellectual rights, the West has to shut up and deal with it, so we can keep on doing business with them. Actually it's not unheard off that Western companies have to forge joint ventures with Chinese companies that engaged in product piracy before. That way they can at least get a share of the profit that is done with the stolen IP. The downside is that we transfer technology down there and in the long run it will harm our economy.
> 
> Despite all the Chinese propaganda here, China could have never achieved its high speed rail project without massive foreign technology and help. Nevertheless it is quite impressive. Yet all these claims should be taken with caution, as China is not exactly known for being a very open society and caring much about freedom of speech and information.


You mean like how Europe was basically chucking spears and shooting arrows at one another for thousands of years before being exposed to Chinese and other foreign weapons?


----------



## dumbfword

Bandit said:


> You mean like how Europe was basically chucking spears and shooting arrows at one another for thousands of years before being exposed to Chinese and other foreign weapons?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire


----------



## greenlion

the newest source imply top speed of CRH380A-6041L exceeded 480Km/h

CRH380B-6402L starts test run today


----------



## foxmulder

More than 480km/h?? That is nice, much higher than what I was expecting. Hope to see some pictures and official announcements.


----------



## deepblue01

laojang said:


> May I add two points
> 
> 
> 2. The ipods are Western technology in name only, it is mainly designed by
> Asians (Indians and Chinese) who happen to live in the US.
> Visit Apple co. in the bay area and take a look yourself.
> 
> Cheers,
> Laojang


Where is your proof, please post here. Would be interesting to see


----------



## Luli Pop

dear forumers: DON'T FEED THE TROLL!!!


----------



## fragel

greenlion said:


> the newest source imply top speed of CRH380A-6041L exceeded 480Km/h
> 
> CRH380B-6402L starts test run today


any idea why there is no official report on the test results?
I hope they could at least disclose some info before the UIC HSR conference.


----------



## greenlion

fragel said:


> any idea why there is no official report on the test results?
> I hope they could at least disclose some info before the UIC HSR conference.


I think there will be official news published before UIC HSR conference, IMO the MOR won't confirm any infomations until the final results is decided


----------



## 33Hz

Has anyone taken a photo of the speed display inside the carriage of a CRH-380 showing 380 km/h?


----------



## rheintram

Why can't China simply publish the information about these trains and technical data just like any other company and country does?


----------



## greenlion

Video: CRH380B-6401L leaving Nanjing Station

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/sk1XoyF2__M/


----------



## Luli Pop

rheintram said:


> Why can't China simply publish the information about these trains and technical data just like any other company and country does?


I'd say:

Why China *doenst want to* simply publish the information about these trains and technical data just like any other company and country does?

Why China *doenst care of *simply publish the information about these trains and technical data just like any other company and country does?


----------



## 33Hz

33Hz said:


> Has anyone taken a photo of the speed display inside the carriage of a CRH-380 showing 380 km/h?


Anyone? 379 will do... :lol:


----------



## LHCHL

33Hz said:


> Anyone? 379 will do... :lol:


As far as I know 380 kph max service speed trains are allocated for Beijing-Shanghai HSR line scheduled to open later next year, for the lines currently for passenger service it only goes up to 350 kph. Don't know what you are looking for though, there are videos of 416 kph on test runs, and 350 kph shots from passengers, all within top few search results on YouTube.


----------



## LHCHL

Luli Pop said:


> I'd say:
> 
> Why China *doenst want to* simply publish the information about these trains and technical data just like any other company and country does?
> 
> Why China *doenst care of *simply publish the information about these trains and technical data just like any other company and country does?


I'm not sure how detailed you want to get, simple technical specifications like power and traction control are around the internet, its not hard to find them. More detailed technical papers you'll probably need to subscribe to Chinese engineering journals, same case with "other countries". If you are looking for detailed blueprints I don't think you'll find anyone publishing those.


----------



## binhai

rheintram said:


> Why can't China simply publish the information about these trains and technical data just like any other company and country does?


maybe because it doesn't matter except to a few geeks like you?


----------



## NCT

Well there's one thing for sure - that the MOR is not known for their enthusiast-friendliness.


----------



## NCT

*China's high-speed trains pre-CRH*

I think this topic deserves its own thread, but if local mods feel otherwise please feel free to merge this with one of the existing Chinese railways threads.

Now, what I suspect a lot of people here don't know, is that before the very high-profile CRH era, the MOR and its factories developed a few of China's own prototype models.

*China Star*

(Images from Hudong Tupian)




























Formation - push+pull and 9 carriages

Top operational speed - 270 km/h

This train is formed of 2 electric locomotives one at each end, and 9 carriages in the middle. Top operational speed is 270 km/h though in a test-run *as early as 2003* it achieved 321 km/h.

And *Blue Arrow*, 










(Picture from http://www.ce.cn/xwzx/gnsz/gdxw/200910/13/t20091013_20192685.shtml)










(Picture from Baidu http://hi.baidu.com/stepdo/blog/item/554a9722a380a8f3d7cae2cc.html)

The blue arrow has a formation of push+pull+5 carriages, and is designed for 200 km/h running. The train was developed between 1998 and 2000 and test run speed reached 305 km/h. Seems it has been in trial passenger service in 2009 and 2010 in Sichuan though exact details are hard to compile and information on the internet has discrepencies.

For probably very valid reasons MOR opted for importing European and Japanese models for the CRH network. These trains seemed to have been forgotten somehow, with further development of the China Star practically abandoned.


----------



## greenlion

2010.11.29 CRH380A-6041L scored 475km/h, Final test will lauch tomorrow,

CRH380BL lost to CRH380AL, though the sources didn't disclose it's top speed in the trail run


----------



## foxmulder

^^ By comparing just the looks of them, 380A looks much more aerodynamic.


----------



## Fan Railer

greenlion said:


> 2010.11.29 CRH380A-6041L scored 475km/h, Final test will lauch tomorrow,
> 
> CRH380BL lost to CRH380AL, though the sources didn't disclose it's top speed in the trail run


It actually would make sense that the 380AL can achieve a higher top speed than the 380BL. The AL has 2040 kW more power than the BL. And I'm not sure about the specifications of the BL, but I would assume that the AL has an overall lighter weight than the BL. But then again, I can't be sure about that one.


----------



## hmmwv

I think MOR won't publish any speed data until the contest is completed, at this point those speeds can be considered trade secret. But boy 475 sure is fast, not 575 fast, but getting there.


----------



## Dobbo

hmmwv said:


> I think MOR won't publish any speed data until the contest is completed, at this point those speeds can be considered trade secret. But boy 475 sure is fast, not 575 fast, but getting there.


Obviously the Chinese have had a huge leg up from the European train manufacutrers, but their progress has been fantastic since then.

I guess for China the speed is a premium. In the UK i know it is not really worthwhile having a line in excess of 400kph as distances between destinations is not that great, but given the size of China, having a 500kph traim could be the difference between sucess or failure on long distance routes.


----------



## gramercy

Dobbo said:


> Obviously the Chinese have had a huge leg up from the European train manufacutrers, but their progress has been fantastic since then.
> 
> I guess for China the speed is a premium. In the UK i know it is not really worthwhile having a line in excess of 400kph as distances between destinations is not that great, but given the size of China, having a 500kph traim could be the difference between sucess or failure on long distance routes.


its nice to have thousands of engineers working for you for slightly more than a bowl of rice


----------



## Ariel74

gramercy said:


> its nice to have thousands of engineers working for you for slightly more than a bowl of rice


Your trite hyperboles, on the other hand, are neither nice nor interesting.


----------



## gramercy

Ariel74 said:


> Your trite hyperboles, on the other hand, are neither nice nor interesting.


nevertheless true


----------



## Ariel74

gramercy said:


> nevertheless true


you apparently neither have a clue about the facts, nor a clue about the meaning of "hyperbole". Hyperboles are never true.


----------



## Ariel74

hmmwv said:


> I think MOR won't publish any speed data until the contest is completed, at this point those speeds can be considered trade secret. But boy 475 sure is fast, not 575 fast, but getting there.


Actually, the 475km/h speed appears to have been clocked by *an unmodified train-set (CRH380AL)*, so it does not make much sense to compare it with the French record, which was made with a mega-beefed-up configuration set up for the express purpose of creating a (pretty meaningless) speed record.


----------



## maldini

33Hz said:


> ^ They also did a lot of research into energy use and aerodynamics, which feeds back to regular TGV/AGV. Thousands of km were ran at over 500 km/h.
> 
> It was the same with the 1989 one, which lead to the "duplex" nose.


At 500km/h, "thousands of km" is just 10+ hours of testing.


----------



## dumbfword

Ariel74 said:


> *READ* the post you quoted, and *THINK*. Then you will know how inappropriate your question is.


I did. He was saying because this train was traveling at speeds normally gained by short haul planes and my question was could rails/overhead lines handle running at that speed all the time. 

So. *THINK *Before you post. Then you will know how inappropriate your question is. hypeJR.


----------



## Ariel74

dumbfword said:


> I did. He was saying because this train was traveling at speeds normally gained by *short haul* planes and my question was could rails/overhead lines handle running at that speed all the time.


Read again, and think about the extra time you need for getting to/ready at airports.

Geez, the US really should invest more in education, lest these dumb Americans continue to wreak literacy havoc on international forums.... :nuts:


----------



## dumbfword

Ariel74 said:


> Read again, and think about the extra time you need for getting to/ready at airports.
> 
> Geez, the *US* really should invest more in education, lest these dumb *Americans* continue to wreak literacy havoc on international forums.... :nuts:


Try again HypeJr. and please take personal problems to PM's. Don't derail the thread. Please.


----------



## Ariel74

dumbfword said:


> Try again HypeJr. and please take personal problems to PM's. Don't derail the thread. Please.


Read and think before you shoot. Please.


----------



## dumbfword

Ariel74 said:


> Read and think before you shoot. Please.


I asked simple question and you derail the thread with some anti-American insult not relating to this thread. So. If you don't have anything to contribute to my question. I'll see if anyone else does. Thank you.


----------



## dumbfword

Ariel74 said:


> Read and think before you shoot. Please.


I asked a simple question and you derail the thread with some anti-American insult not relating to this thread. So. If you don't have anything to contribute to my question. I'll see if anyone else does. Thank you. HypeJr.


----------



## Bird01

The configuration of rolling stock for French's 574.8km/h test run was: Locomotive + 3 motorized cars + locomotive. 

It is more like the combination of the locomotives instead of a normal train. 3 cars are motorized, and the bodies of the cars were narrow ones. 

So the 574.8 km/h should really be the highest speed of the locomotives, not the highest speed of a normal train, whether it is a commercial one or not.

French should conduct another test run with its most advanced train “AGV”. If it could reach 574.8 km/h, it would be undisputed king of the speed, even it is still a narrow body train, at least it is a normal one.


----------



## Ariel74

dumbfword said:


> I asked simple question and you derail the thread with some anti-American insult not relating to this thread. So. If you don't have anything to contribute to my question. I'll see if anyone else does. Thank you.


Your question makes no sense given the context. And if you can't see that for yourself, no one can help you either.


----------



## 33Hz

The French train was narrower, but two floors, so this didn't help. Still, I'd like to see them try with the AGV too.

It may have been 10 hours, but my point was that it was not a one-off publicity run.


----------



## dumbfword

> Your question makes no sense given the context. And if you can't see that for yourself, no one can help you either.


If rail/overhead lines can handle trains running at 500kph all the time? Read next time, *HypeJr*.


----------



## Ariel74

33Hz said:


> The French train was narrower, but two floors, so this didn't help. Still, I'd like to see them try with the AGV too.
> 
> It may have been 10 hours, but my point was that it was not a one-off publicity run.


look, let us suppose it *was*, by some unimaginable luck if you will, merely a publicity run. Do you think they would have made no preparations whatsoever? 10 hours test run for such a publicity stunt would be merely the prudent thing to do, don't you think?

So "thousands of kilometers" of test doesn't prove it was not merely a publicity stunt. 

Although I agree, the data they have gathered in these tests are valuable in themselves.


----------



## Ariel74

dumbfword said:


> If rail/overhead lines can handle trains running at 500kph all the time? Read next time, HypeJr.


You are truly hopeless. Use the gray matter you have (and the hints already provided in bold, large fonts). Please.


----------



## Ariel74

Nozumi 300 said:


> I noticed in a couple of the videos that the CRH380A has what I think is perforated wheels, can anyone confirm this? If so is this the new design of wheels for the CRH380 series?


That's interesting. Can you link the videos in which you saw them?


----------



## mgs4

Luli Pop said:


> I can't believe I'm in love with a train!!!!
> 
> unmodified!!!!!!
> 
> congratulations China!!!!!


Awesome train !, i love it too, you got to hand it to the chinese for pulling up this project, not sure when they will have trains traveling faster than 200 km/h in India.


----------



## dumbfword

Ariel74 said:


> You are truly hopeless. Use the *gray* matter you have (and the hints already provided in bold, large fonts). Please.


what? :lol:


----------



## Ariel74

dumbfword said:


> what? :lol:


look it up to find out what. Hint: gray matter is in your brain.


----------



## Nozumi 300

Ariel74 said:


> That's interesting. Can you link the videos in which you saw them?


They're actually the videos that were linked here. I only noticed it when the train is leaving the station, so when you see the train start leaving the station look at the wheels.


----------



## cbz

dumbfword said:


> Can rails and overhead lines handle trains running over 500kph?


I guess overhead lines you meant here is pantograph contact with overhead line, i am curious as well how pantograph is designed given huge friction generated at high speed, and this friction is not rolling friction like wheel. I did a little bit research, only found that pantograph contact carbon strip in existing market can only sustain for 300+ kmh.


----------



## Nordschleife

By 洛杉矶特警


----------



## foxmulder

cbz said:


> I guess overhead lines you meant here is pantograph contact with overhead line, i am curious as well how pantograph is designed given huge friction generated at high speed, and this friction is not rolling friction like wheel. I did a little bit research, only found that pantograph contact carbon strip in existing market can only sustain for 300+ kmh.


I believe cable tension is as important as material used pantograph surface, if not more. Probably, electrical cables on these lines have much higher tension than old school high speed lines so they don't fluctuate as much hence lower friction.


----------



## foxmulder

Awesome pictures Nordschleife, tnx for sharing. Higher resolution pictures will be appreciated too


----------



## Nordschleife

Oh, I made a mistake, I shouldn't posted these pictures here...
Never mind.


----------



## cbz

foxmulder said:


> I believe cable tension is as important as material used pantograph surface, if not more. Probably, electrical cables on these lines have much higher tension than old school high speed lines so they don't fluctuate as much hence lower friction.


that is true, but it seems can be resolved by either brute force way ( stiff and thick wire), or carefully calculation and auto tension adjustment, thus ensure wire wave speed is faster or slower than train speed. But i guess oscillations caused by pantograph is not reason for friction, it will cause lost of contact and power if standing wave occurs


----------



## cbz

Here is an interesting part of HSR overhead contact wire introduction by CHR 380 chief designer zhang shuguang (sorry for chinese)

解密高科技接触网助列车高速奔跑
　　高铁列车不断挑战速度极限的一大制约因素，是如何确保列车高速运行中受电弓能持续不断从2.75万伏的高压导线中获取强大电流。
　　时速350公里的持续运营状态下，列车受电弓以每秒100多米的惊人速度“刷”过接触网，因此接触网必须高度平顺，且导电性能绝佳，列车才能持续高速奔跑。否则受电过程有一点儿中断，列车速度就会立马下降。
　　从京津城际到京沪高铁，中铁电气化局已经实现了高铁接触网系统从外方技术主导到完全自主化设计和施工的跨越。据透露，每段平均长度为1.4至1.6公里的接触网导线，架设过程中水平精度误差允许在0.1毫米以下，而京沪高铁的实际精度达到了0.03至0.05毫米的世界领先水平，这成为列车创造出486.1公里时速的重要保障。
　　尤其引以为傲的是，昨日试验运行的先导段中，有70公里的接触网导线采用完全自主研发的铜合金高强高导材料，以高强度确保接触网平顺的同时，导电性能又极佳，成为京沪先导段的“秘密武器”，“和谐号”380A列车正是在这段区间加速冲刺创造了新的历史纪录。


----------



## Geography

Popeye, good to see you leave your usual haunt of SinoDefenseForum.com (an excellent forum for Chinese military news by the way)! I hope you post more here.



>


This is what I love about trains, the ability to sit like this. You have amble leg room if the seat across from you is unoccupied (and can even put your legs on the seat like an ottoman), can have a nice conversation with your friends, and to be able to get up and walk around the train easily. And look at that big window!

How many passengers can the CRH380A hold?


----------



## greenlion

Geography said:


> Popeye, good to see you leave your usual haunt of SinoDefenseForum.com (an excellent forum for Chinese military news by the way)! I hope you post more here.
> 
> 
> This is what I love about trains, the ability to sit like this. You have amble leg room if the seat across from you is unoccupied (and can even put your legs on the seat like an ottoman), can have a nice conversation with your friends, and to be able to get up and walk around the train easily. And look at that big window!
> 
> How many passengers can the CRH380A hold?


8-Car CRH380A, Capacity: 494
16-car CRH380AL, Capacity: around 1000


----------



## Mika Montwald

*Pent Up Economic Synergy Release by China CRH*

8 + 8 = 88
Pent_Up Economic Synergy released by China CRH Harmony Express is beginning to unfold. 
:colgate: :colgate:

Any economic experts who are unable to see the <under surface> 
economic benefits should be classified as pedestrian Joe Blow and work as CRH toilet cleaners. 


News Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-...ocks-as-boom-brings-most-tracks-in-world.html

----------------------------------------------



> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ... ... ...
> 
> Kroeber said construction of new track for the network will free up space on existing lines for freight, generating enough revenue over 15 years to pay for the new lines. China's rail network is "bursting at the seams," he said.
> 
> Freight has doubled between Guangzhou and Wuhan since the route opened in December, said He Huawu, the railway ministry's chief engineer, in an interview. The separation of passenger and cargo lines will release seven times the capacity for container transportation, ... ... ...
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------





> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Zhu Yi used to nap on the five-hour train ride home to Wuhan from Zhuzhou in central China. Now that a fast rail line has cut the trip to an hour and 40 minutes, he can spend more time selling information-management systems.
> 
> Before, “it took three days to get a project done,” said Zhu, 31, a sales manager for Beijing Lanxum New Technology Co. in Wuhan. “Now it’s so fast I can work out a solution for the client and be back home on the same day.”
> 
> The view from Zhu’s reclining seat shows how China’s push to build a 16,000-kilometer high-speed passenger network by 2020 is carrying China’s industrial boom inland. All along the trackside are earth movers and excavators clearing land and beginning construction. They merge into a blur as the express accelerates to 350 kilometers (218 miles) an hour.
> 
> The country’s planned 2 trillion yuan ($300 billion) in spending will give it almost as much track by 2012 as the entire rest of the world, even before the network is completed.
> 
> The new trains will transform China’s economy in the way bullet trains did in Japan in the 1960s and 1970s, according to Beijing-based China International Capital Corp., the top-ranked brokerage for China research in Asiamoney magazine’s annual survey.
> 
> “China’s high-speed rail program is altering the landscape of consumer and property markets,” said Jing Ulrich, JPMorgan Chase & Co.’s China equities and commodities head in Hong Kong.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Rail Shares
> 
> China’s bullet-train spending has buoyed rail stocks since a 4-trillion-yuan stimulus was announced in November 2008. Shares of Dalian-based China Railway Tielong Container Logistics Co., which provides railroad, truck and water transportation services, have risen 2.5 times since then. China Railway Erju Co. in Chengdu, which designs and builds railways, has more than doubled.
> 
> Companies providing rolling stock and equipment to train operators have some of the best growth prospects in the country, said Anderson Chow, a Hong Kong-based analyst with Macquarie Capital Securities. Overall investment in China’s railway industry will total 3.8 trillion yuan from 2011 to 2015, about 50 percent more than in the last five years, he estimates.
> 
> Earnings growth at CSR Corp., which makes locomotives and wagons, will surge an annual average 38 percent over the next three years, said Chow. At Zhuzhou CSR Times Electric Co. in Zhuzhou, which makes electrical systems for railways, earnings will rise an average of about 35 percent annually over the same period, he said.
> 
> Earnings Certainty?
> 
> “If you look around the China market there are very few companies that give you that sort of certainty for earnings growth,” Chow said.
> 
> The nation’s $90 billion in spending on the network last year far exceeds the $8 billion that President Barack Obama allocated in stimulus for U.S. fast trains earlier this year.
> 
> The difference “is a confirmation of China’s rise and an indication of U.S. demise,” said Nicholas Lardy, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington. “We in the U.S. are doing little to nothing and will pay a price in slower growth now and in the future.”
> 
> Japan’s bullet trains triggered “explosive growth” in tourism-related retail sales along their routes in the decade after Shinkansen services began in 1964, CICC said. Less- developed cities such as Hiroshima, Nagoya and Fukuoka “started to play catch-up in industrial production growth.” Morgan Stanley is selling its 34.3 percent stake in CICC, four people with direct knowledge of the deal said.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Fewer Bottlenecks
> 
> In China, more businesses will move inland to capitalize on labor as much as 50 percent cheaper than in the more affluent eastern areas of the country, and on lower land and rental costs. Increased rail capacity also will reduce freight bottlenecks, the bank said.
> 
> Beijing Lanxum’s Zhu said the bullet trains helped him increase sales about 15 percent this year in Zhuzhou, Hunan’s second-biggest city, because he can contact more clients.
> 
> Changsha, population 6 million and the capital of Hunan province, shows how the fast trains are altering the landscape in central China. He Chuan Road features an array of dusty shops selling tires, noodles and groceries, typical of many provincial cities. Just around the corner towers the 200,000-square meter Changsha South Railway Station, its glass curtain walls capped by a 38-meter-high waved roof.
> 
> The coming of the trains prompted CITIC Capital’s Stanley Ching to bet 1.5 billion yuan on CITIC’s purchase of the ID Mall shopping complex in the city center, about 30 minutes from the station. He plans to add a chain of branded retail malls over the next three to five years, mostly in second- and third-tier cities along the high-speed rail routes.
> 
> ‘Big Push’
> 
> “Changsha’s been a very promising city but it needed a big push to turn it into a regional hub,” said Ching, Hong Kong- based head of real estate at CITIC Capital, which manages more than $3 billion in private equity, in a telephone interview. “High-speed rail is that big push.”
> 
> China’s industrial transformation may be greater than Japan’s because its rail network will be bigger and its trains faster, according to JP Morgan’s Ulrich. A Chinese high-speed train today reached 486.1 kilometers per hour in what state-run Xinhua News said was a world record for an unmodified commercial locomotive. A specially equipped French TGV set a world record of 574.8 kilometers per hour in April 2007.
> 
> “Places west of Shanghai can become part of China’s giant east coast export zone, and that’s already starting to happen,” said Arthur Kroeber, managing director of Beijing-based Dragonomics, an economic advisory firm whose clients include Fortune 500 companies and hedge funds.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> All Capitals
> 
> China has more than 7,000 kilometers of high-speed track so far. By 2012, Beijing plans to have 42 lines in operation, covering 13,000 kilometers. Within a decade all provincial capitals and cities with more than 500,000 citizens will have high-speed links, the Ministry of Railways says. Already, the Chinese rail system is larger than any other country’s, according to the Paris-based International Union of Railways.
> 
> Changsha’s fast rail link enables CITIC Capital to hire senior staff from coastal cities such as Shenzhen to manage the retail malls, said Ching.
> 
> When the Guangzhou-Shenzhen line opens next year, travel time to Changsha will shrink to about 2.5 hours from more than 9 hours. Another line, scheduled for completion in 2014, will cut travel time between Guangzhou and Yunfu, a city of 2.6 million in Guangdong province, to 40 minutes from more than 2 hours.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Tableware Sales
> 
> Companies based in Yunfu, such as stainless-steel tableware maker Linkfair Group and agricultural company Wen’s Group, will benefit, said John Scales, Beijing-based transport sector coordinator at the World Bank. The link will help them recruit designers and research staff, according to a World Bank case study on the city to be published next year, said Scales.
> 
> ... ... ...
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## Mika Montwald

> ... ... ^^
> 
> if the seat across from you is unoccupied (and can even put your legs on the seat like an ottoman), ... ...


Just Friendly Reminder to everyone. Please do not take any offense. 
Below is not an overreaction: 

-----------------------------------------------

In China, Korea and Japan, it is considered extremely, *extremely* *RUDE* and 
*OFFENSIVE* to lift your feet up and putting them on OTHER people seat (even when empty and unoccupied) or a nearby table or a pole. 

:guns1:

Most especially, if you do NOT take off your shoes. 
Double the offense. 

Seat is a place to sit. They are NOT a footrest. 
In public, one's feet should always be resting on the floor. 
Public place is a public place. They are not a massage parlor. 

----------------------------------------------------

Do not be surprised -- if a passerby see you with your feet up resting on other people seat, 
then they SUDDENLY attack you and break your kneecap and gouging out your eyes. 

HST is a National Pride. 
Please do not trample on National Pride. 

The act of lifting one's feet up on (other people seat or a table or a pole) is a 
SYMBOLIC insulting and dominating gesture that implies other people are nobody. 

Because if one respect one's present company and surrounding, then 
one will NOT lift one's feet up and rest them on other people domain. 

I am done. Sorry: Off Topic


----------



## Mika Montwald

Nozumi 300 said:


> They're actually the videos that were linked here. I only noticed it when the train is leaving the station, so when you see the train start leaving the station look at the wheels.


I believe the Perforated Holes on the Bogie wheels is just only one of the many, many brand new CRH inventions. 

A brand new Speedometer (ultra clever and reliable way) to measure the speed of 350+ km/hr China HST 
with a minimum mechanical breakdown as compare to the conventional speedometer. 

If one want to push the Speed envelope and create a sustainable 500+ km/hr HST, then one has to innovate, 
because nobody else on this planet has the Tech. 

The precise and equally spaced Perforated Holes is to let the LED 
light shines though to measure the precise speed of the individual CRH Bogie wheel. 

Thus knowing the precise speed of the CRH Bogie wheel 
will translate to better time spacing interval between CRH trains.

As of now, the time spacing interval between CRH trains running 400 km/hr is equal to minimum 3 minutes.


----------



## Luli Pop

the new trolls are more and mor brainless each time!

I´ll think I´ll miss Hypertroll when next one appears!


----------



## oliver999

http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=10820803&iid=65250188&cid=29
this is the video


----------



## hmmwv

dumbfword said:


> Can rails and overhead lines handle trains running over 500kph?


I don't see any problem with that, I doubt the 486.1 record is the absolute limit for the system, there has to be some safety margin. The V150 got to 575 and the overhead line and rail seem to be fine, lower that by 80kph will allow the infrastructure to last longer. Also note the train doesn't have to reach 500kph to stay competitive with regional airlines. Train will accelerate and slow down and will maintain a far slower average speed than 500kph, but on the other hand planes will climb and descend, dodge bad weather, sit on the tarmac to wait for takeoff clearance, or circle in the air waiting for landing slot. On top of that, passengers have to travel to airports, wait in security lines, etc. Riding regional turboprop for trips less than 6-700km will be slower than riding HSR.


----------



## dumbfword

Luli Pop said:


> the new trolls are more and mor brainless each time!
> 
> I´ll think I´ll miss Hypertroll when next one appears!


lol. who is trolling?


----------



## greenlion

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2010-12/04/content_11652641.htm

The new passenger train record was hit along a 220-km section of the line between Zaozhuang, Shandong province, and Bengbu, Anhui province, which has led other sections of the new line in finishing its signal, communications and power supply systems.

At 11:06 am, the Chinese designed and manufactured bullet train CRH380AL set off from Zaozhuang.

With a longer, streamlined nose designed to reduce air resistance, the train began to pick up speed. After only a few minutes, it had broken the previous record of 416.6 km/h. The train maintained a speed that hovered around 420 km/h for a while before cranking it up again and hitting 480 km/h at 11:24 am.

After slowing down briefly, it started to accelerate again and set the new world record of 486.1 km/h at 11:28 am.

The experience of being on board felt very much like "flying on land", which is how the ministry has described its future high-speed rail service.

And the noise inside was similar to that inside a jet, but somewhat quieter.

Unlike passenger aircraft, travelers were not required to buckle-up.

Passengers aboard the train for the record-breaking trial run said the ride was smooth and the feeling was similar to being on a regular train traveling at 250 km/h.

"We have done a lot of experiments on making the train airtight and streamlined on the Wuhan-Guangzhou high-speed rail line and used our research findings on this train," said Zhang Shuguang, deputy chief engineer with the Ministry of Railways.

And he said there were also no concerns about the safety of the train. He said it operated well within its safe parameters and "performed excellently" even while it was at the new record speed.

"This operational experiment shows China's leading position in the sector," Zhang said. 

"It is the world's most advanced but cheapest high-speed train. It is also reliable and comfortable to ride."

The train that broke the record was a 16-car bullet train that was designed and built by CSR Qingdao Sifang Locomotive and Rolling Stock Co Ltd. It was designed for daily work on the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed line.

The 403-meter train can seat 1,027 passengers and will ordinarily travel at 350 km/h and hit a maximum speed of 380 km/h while in normal service.


----------



## Ariel74

hmmwv said:


> I don't see any problem with that, I doubt the 486.1 record is the absolute limit for the system, there has to be some safety margin. The V150 got to 575 and the overhead line and rail seem to be fine, lower that by 80kph will allow the infrastructure to last longer. Also note the train doesn't have to reach 500kph to stay competitive with regional airlines. Train will accelerate and slow down and will maintain a far slower average speed than 500kph, but on the other hand planes will climb and descend, dodge bad weather, sit on the tarmac to wait for takeoff clearance, or circle in the air waiting for landing slot. On top of that, passengers have to travel to airports, wait in security lines, etc. Riding regional turboprop for trips less than 6-700km will be slower than riding HSR.


You are extraordinarily patient  But if you waste your time with every idiotic question put to you, you won't have time to live your own life hno:


----------



## Ariel74

Nozumi 300 said:


> They're actually the videos that were linked here. I only noticed it when the train is leaving the station, so when you see the train start leaving the station look at the wheels.


oh, thanks.


----------



## greenlion

during the December 3 test, the CRH380AL actually traveled 220 km in 34 minutes, at average speed of 388 km/h (209 mph), speed of 480+ km/h lasts for 7 minutes, that means it at least traveld 56.7 km (35.23 miles)under such a speed. shows how well the rail constructed .


----------



## chornedsnorkack

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/03/AR2010120300324.html


Associated Press said:


> The line is due to open in 2012 and will halve the current travel time between the capital Beijing and Shanghai to five hours.


Which month of 2012?
When Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway does open, shall it be far slower than the existing Wuhan-Guangzhou high speed railway? 5 hours for 1305 km or so means average of 261 km/h, while Guangwu railway has average 296 km/h for 968 km, and 313 km/h for 922 km.


----------



## Ariel74

greenlion said:


> during the December 3 test, the CRH380AL actually traveled 220 km in 34 minutes, at average speed of 388 km/h (209 mph), speed of 480+ km/h lasts for 7 minutes, that means it at least traveld 56.7 km (35.23 miles)under such a speed. shows how well the rail constructed .


Do you know if the 7 minutes were one continuous period, or is it the sum of several periods (3mins earlier then 4 mins later, for example)?


----------



## greenlion

Ariel74 said:


> Do you know if the 7 minutes were one continuous period, or is it the sum of several periods (3mins earlier then 4 mins later, for example)?


I think it's a continuous period.


----------



## Mika Montwald

*CHINA HST Track can handle operating speed up to 660 km/h*

:master: :master: :master:

Firstly, let us send the much well deserved acknowledgment and tribute to China Ministry of Railways R&D 
teams of Engineers and Scientists, plus construction crews who work tirelessly around the clock. 

Secondly, let us send the well deserved acknowledgment and tribute to German Engineering and Japan Engineering, 
plus Japan Meticulous Approach which had facilitated China Ministry of Railways R&D teams of Engineers & Scientists 
in pushing the CRH Operating Speed boundary to exceed 486+ km/h. 

Unofficially, China Ministry of Railways R&D is targeting CRH Operating Speed of 600+ km/h in the near future. 


In contrast, ... ...

Not too long ago around year 2000, some of the French Alstom people told the visiting China Engineers & Scientists 
it should take China at least 30+ years to be able to produce the HST such as French Alstom TGV 
(accompanied by very loud French Alstom sneering in the background)

:dunno: :dunno:

Now, I wonder how long will it take French Alstom to catch up to China Ministry of Railways in producing 
16 sets (non specially configured) HST with sustainable operating speed of 486+ km/h over a distance of 4800 km ??


--------------------------------------------------------

:bowtie: :bowtie: :bowtie:

Sending Acknowledgment and Tributes toward these 
contributing Engineering firms below (among many): 

1) German Engineering Firms: ( Nencki AG , MAX_BOEGL , Bombardier , Siemens )

2) Japan Engineering Firm: Kawasaki Heavy Industries

--------------------------------------------------------

Some of China R&D Innovative Secrets for being able to push 
the CRH Operating Speed upward (so far 486+ km/h, next up 500+ km/h) are:


1) CRH CRTS_2 Slab Track manufacturing tech -- which are able to deliver the most accurate rail placement
on the planet with minimum allowable sideways movement of smaller than << 0.1 mm

2) CRH Bogie system manufacturing tech -- which are able to handle speed up to 560 km/h (unofficially) 
without hunting from side to side during straight line ultra high speed travel. 

3) China EMU Permanent Magnet Motors (Green Tech) -- which are able to deliver those ultra high speed 
consuming energy less than 5.2 kWh per 100 km distance per passenger.


-------------------------------------------

BTW, does anyone know -- what is the Energy Consumption of Siemens, Kawasaki, Alstom HST 
in (kWh) per 100 km distance per passenger ??

-------------------------------------------



> Source: *International Railway Journal* -- *SEP 2010* (Subscriber Only) ... ... ...
> 
> *Regenerative braking* should result in the energy feedback rate hitting 90%.
> 
> As far as external noise is concerned, CSR has streamlined the train and optimised
> windows and doors to improve aerodynamic performance.
> The nose design of the train has a *resistance coefficient* of <0.13.
> The rear car of the train has a lift coefficient of <0.08. CSR says it has been
> able to reduce car body aerodynamic noise by more than 5%.
> 
> Lightweight design
> 
> CSR has adopted a lightweight design so that the maximum axieload is less than 15 tonnes.
> When running at 380km/h, per capita *energy consumption* per 100km remains below 5.2kWh.
> 
> In addition, CSR has introduced a series of resistance-reducing designs such as streamlined driving cars,
> fully-clad windscreen, and a smooth underfloor area, which have helped to reduce aerodynamic resistance by 6%,
> thereby significantly reducing energy consumption.
> 
> The train is designed to achieve a high level of reliability but with low maintenance costs.
> All electrical equipment in the train is electromagnetically compatible, and is designed
> to exert little electromagnetic interference both within and outside the train.
> In addition, the train is equipped with a sewage collection system to ensure pollution-free discharge
> 
> ... ... ...


----------



## highway35

Mika Montwald said:


> :master: :master: :master:
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> :bowtie: :bowtie: :bowtie:
> 
> Sending Acknowledgment and Tributes toward these
> contributing Engineering firms below (among many):
> 
> 1) German Engineering Firms: ( Nencki AG , MAX_BOEGL , Bombardier , Siemens )
> 
> 2) Japan Engineering Firm: Kawasaki Heavy Industries
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------


China's MOR should give proper credit to these international suppliers, which engineered and supplied some of the key components of CRH. This does diminish MOR's outstanding achievements in building a complete HSR system and network in China. This is not only fair, but is also beneficial to the healthy development of China's HSR industry, as well as dispels some of the doubts overseas about China's own contribution and technology capability.

I think the key leadership of MOR understands this. If you compare the major international HSR industry players. Alstom was out of the game from the beginning; they balked at MOR's request for technology transfer and JV. They had been very bitter and vocal at the beginning, but has become a lot quieter more recently. Some of the Japanese business leaders have been particularly bitter and accusatory, obviously due to the huge disappointment that China had simply leapfrogged and advanced so rapidly in HSR and didn't give the Japanese vendors as much opportunity as they originally expected.

Bombardier has been an active participant in Chinese rail transport market and has been the most cooperative with Chinese authorities. As such, they have been constantly awarded with deals after deals, the including the CRH380C contract. Germany is also an interesting case. Siemens has been quietly cooperating with MOR and played the role of key suppliers to MOR.

MOR has been explicit that they welcome foreign competition. The CRH380C contract with Bombardier is meant to maintain the competition to the Chinese rolling stock manufacturers and keep CSR and CNR honest.


----------



## gramercy

wouldnt there be a point from where maglev would be more economical?

plus that could _really_ go faster


----------



## daddylonglegs

Amazing piece of engineering there. I only wish we had something like that in the US. Chicago to Miami at 302 mph... What? 5hrs? Boggles the mind.


----------



## hmmwv

I don't think that Washington Post article is correct about the travel time and opening date of Jinhu line, from what we have read so far it's 4 hours to Shanghai in a "express" train, and opening date is somewhere around National Day 2011.


----------



## Geography

> In China, Korea and Japan, it is considered extremely, extremely RUDE and
> OFFENSIVE to lift your feet up and putting them on OTHER people seat (even when empty and unoccupied) or a nearby table or a pole.


OK, OK, I got it! Thanks for the survival tip.


----------



## 33Hz

I was going to say - I wonder if the 5 hours travel time thing is some kind of deliberate "mistake" by the Washington Post to not make this look as good as it is.



> CSR has adopted a lightweight design so that the maximum axieload is less than 15 tonnes.
> 
> When running at 380km/h, per capita energy consumption per 100km remains below 5.2kWh.



Up thread it was stated that the train has 1047 seat. Here it is stated that the per seat energy consumption is 0.052 kWh per km.

We were told before that the train's power was 20440kW.

If you work that out then at constant 380 km/h, the train is using more than its max power. So how are they getting to 486 km/h?

Also, on wikipedia it states that the seating is 1230, so who is correct?


----------



## binhai

yeah, I saw on CNN the news ticker said "Chinese Train sets new record, Xinhua reports" while all of the other news didn't have such a qualification, they were simply reported as fact (like "Wildfire kills 8" or "Qatar hosting 2022 world cup"). But this implies that Xinhua is not telling the full story, when there's a multiple video and photographic proof given.


----------



## Mika Montwald

gramercy said:


> wouldnt there be a point from where maglev would be more economical?
> 
> plus that could _really_ go faster


(Coming from Unofficial Source):

Maybe coining some new terms: ... ...


*UHST* = Ultra High Speed Train
*MAGLEVAC* Train = ( MAGLEV + VACUUM ) Train
*IOT* -- *M2M2H* = Internet 3.0 & beyond

----------------------------------------------------

In China, MAGLEV Train is coming in different way to create a Ultra HST (1st Speed target upward of 1000+ km/h). 

2nd Speed target upward of 1236+ km/h = Traveling by MAGLEVAC UHST faster than the Speed of Sound. 


epper: -- :banana: -- :carrot: -- :cucumber:


If every nations along the line are willing to cooperate for the betterment of planet Earth 
(without getting bog down by daily democratic bickering), :angel:
China will build the MAGLEVAC Ultra HST 2 corridors from China to Europe and 
the 400+ km/h HST feeder lines along the route to support the 2 MAGLEVAC UHST corridors. 


1) Northern Path MAGLEVAC UHST corridor = China --- Russia --- NIMBYnation1 --- 
NIMBYnation2 --- Germany (... ... only if Germans do not get bog down by NIMBYism)

(... ... unknown NIMBYnation --- To Be Decided (TBD) after 
daily democratic bickering is over, maybe in 300+ years) :hahaha:


2) Southern Path MAGLEVAC UHST corridor = China --- Iran --- Turkey --- Bulgaria --- NIMBYnation



We all know that China Nation has the money and the fastest multi Supercomputer 
(to simulate building these new toys in advance -- *IOT* -- *M2M2H *Simulation) 
to build these kind of MAGLEVAC Ultra High Speed Train Corridors. 

----------------------------------------------------

China Ministry of Railways R&D has set aside a small team of Engineers & Scientists to work on 
combining Maglev tech with a Vacuum Tube tech at Shanghai Southwest Jiaotong University R&D Lab. 

At these moment, China R&D teams are working hard to solve 
many development bottlenecks in terms of:

----------------------------------------------------

1) Producing the Best & the cheapest Permanent Magnet Alloys (China still has some Rare Earth Materials left, 
after years and years of idiotic Fire Sale super cheap export by China Companies)

2) Constructing the Best & the cheapest Vaccum Tube

3) plus *IOT* -- *M2M* ( Internet of Things -- Machine to Machine Communication 
Tech to automatically keep track of all the tiny parts of these new traveling toys

4) plus *IOT* -- *M2M2H* ( Internet of Things -- Machine to Machine to Human Communication Tech 
to automatically keeping track of all the passengers for safety). 

5) Applying the *Green Solar Power* tech to power some of these new toys 
by applying them in the Train Vacuum Tube & Train Station Roof. 

6) plus Nano Tech to auto maintain most of the MAGLEVAC UHST system (Train & Tube) 24h/d

7) Applying the Green *Nuclear Fusion* Tech to power all these new toys


Now, more and more global Engineers and Scientists who want to test their theories and 
work on the super cutting edge next tech frontiers are coming to China. 
China welcome you warmly. 


----------------------------------------------------


News Sources_1: http://www.techthefuture.com/energy/chinese-maglev-train-will-reach-1000-kmph/


News Sources_2: http://www.geek.com/articles/news/c...-lev-trains-capable-of-going-1000kph-2010085/


Solar Power on Station Roof:

News Sources_3: http://cleantechnica.com/2010/07/20...ion-meets-high-speed-rail-in-shanghai-china//


----------------------------------------------------

NOTE:

I hope China Central Government has the wisdom to shut down the idiotic Transfer 
of Tech from China Companies (CSR & CNR & MoR) directly to General Electric in exchange of 
USD toilet papers (So far, the USA FED Bank has been printing 2.3 Trillion toilet papers already). 

:bash: --- :bash:

China has too much FX reserve already. (2.7+ Trillions USD and counting)

China should immediately stop selling these tech by themselves in US. 
China should have the wisdom to license their new HST Tech invention to some 
nice German Engineering companies and let the Germans sell them in USA. 


----------------------------------------------------


----------



## dumbfword

Mika Montwald said:


> (Coming from Unofficial Source):
> 
> Maybe coining some new terms: ... ...
> 
> 
> *UHST* = Ultra High Speed Train
> *MAGLEVAC* Train = ( MAGLEV + VACUUM ) Train
> *IOT* -- *M2M2H* = Internet 3.0 & beyond
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 
> In China, MAGLEV Train is coming in different way to create a Ultra HST (1st Speed target upward of 1000+ km/h).
> 
> 2nd Speed target upward of 1236+ km/h = Traveling by MAGLEVAC UHST faster than the Speed of Sound.
> 
> 
> epper: -- :banana: -- :carrot: -- :cucumber:
> 
> 
> If every nations along the line are willing to cooperate for the betterment of planet Earth
> (without getting bog down by daily democratic bickering), :angel:
> China will build the MAGLEVAC Ultra HST 2 corridors from China to Europe and
> the 400+ km/h HST feeder lines along the route to support the 2 MAGLEVAC UHST corridors.
> 
> 
> 1) Northern Path MAGLEVAC UHST corridor = China --- Russia --- NIMBYnation1 ---
> NIMBYnation2 --- Germany (... ... only if Germans do not get bog down by NIMBYism)
> 
> (... ... unknown NIMBYnation --- To Be Decided (TBD) after
> daily democratic bickering is over, maybe in 300+ years) :hahaha:
> 
> 
> 2) Southern Path MAGLEVAC UHST corridor = China --- Iran --- Turkey --- Bulgaria --- NIMBYnation
> 
> 
> 
> We all know that China Nation has the money and the fastest multi Supercomputer
> (to simulate building these new toys in advance -- *IOT* -- *M2M2H *Simulation)
> to build these kind of MAGLEVAC Ultra High Speed Train Corridors.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 
> China Ministry of Railways R&D has set aside a small team of Engineers & Scientists to work on
> combining Maglev tech with a Vacuum Tube tech at Shanghai Southwest Jiaotong University R&D Lab.
> 
> At these moment, China R&D teams are working hard to solve
> many development bottlenecks in terms of:
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 
> 1) Producing the Best & the cheapest Permanent Magnet Alloys (China still has some Rare Earth Materials left,
> after years and years of idiotic Fire Sale super cheap export by China Companies)
> 
> 2) Constructing the Best & the cheapest Vaccum Tube
> 
> 3) plus *IOT* -- *M2M* ( Internet of Things -- Machine to Machine Communication
> Tech to automatically keep track of all the tiny parts of these new traveling toys
> 
> 4) plus *IOT* -- *M2M2H* ( Internet of Things -- Machine to Machine to Human Communication Tech
> to automatically keeping track of all the passengers for safety).
> 
> 5) Applying the *Green Solar Power* tech to power some of these new toys
> by applying them in the Train Vacuum Tube & Train Station Roof.
> 
> 6) plus Nano Tech to auto maintain most of the MAGLEVAC UHST system (Train & Tube) 24h/d
> 
> 7) Applying the Green *Nuclear Fusion* Tech to power all these new toys
> 
> 
> Now, more and more global Engineers and Scientists who want to test their theories and
> work on the super cutting edge next tech frontiers are coming to China.
> China welcome you warmly.
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> News Sources_1: http://www.techthefuture.com/energy/chinese-maglev-train-will-reach-1000-kmph/
> 
> 
> News Sources_2: http://www.geek.com/articles/news/c...-lev-trains-capable-of-going-1000kph-2010085/
> 
> 
> Solar Power on Station Roof:
> 
> News Sources_3: http://cleantechnica.com/2010/07/20...ion-meets-high-speed-rail-in-shanghai-china//
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 
> *NOTE:
> 
> I hope China Central Government has the wisdom to shut down the idiotic Transfer
> of Tech from China Companies (CSR & CNR & MoR) directly to General Electric in exchange of
> USD toilet papers (So far, the USA FED Bank has been printing 2.3 Trillion toilet papers already).
> 
> :bash: --- :bash:
> 
> China has too much FX reserve already. (2.7+ Trillions USD and counting)
> 
> China should immediately stop selling these tech by themselves in US.
> China should have the wisdom to license their new HST Tech invention to some
> nice German Engineering companies and let the Germans sell them in USA. *
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------


and this relates to HSR how? Create a blog for your trolling. don't derail the thread. hno: And isn't kind of a double standard about tech transfers? GE or any Chinese companies haven't even started to bid. What tech transfers has PRC companies done to GE?


----------



## Fan Railer

33Hz said:


> I was going to say - I wonder if the 5 hours travel time thing is some kind of deliberate "mistake" by the Washington Post to not make this look as good as it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Up thread it was stated that the train has 1047 seat. Here it is stated that the per seat energy consumption is 0.052 kWh per km.
> 
> We were told before that the train's power was 20440kW.
> 
> If you work that out then at constant 380 km/h, the train is using more than its max power. So how are they getting to 486 km/h?
> 
> Also, on wikipedia it states that the seating is 1230, so who is correct?


Whoever edited the 380A article on wikipedia just took the 1230 number from the CRH2B capacity... until the last few days, it was not disclosed how many seats would be on the 380AL, but now it's revealed to be 1047. I'll run through the article and correct any discrepancies when I get the chance.


----------



## greenlion

Fan Railer said:


> Whoever edited the 380A article on wikipedia just took the 1230 number from the CRH2B capacity... until the last few days, it was not disclosed how many seats would be on the 380AL, but now it's revealed to be 1047. I'll run through the article and correct any discrepancies when I get the chance.


actually it is me who wrote most part of the CRH380A article on wikipedia, and the 1230 number is indeed from the origional design proposal, which was based on the capacity of CRH2B 

some media also report Capacity of CRH380AL is 1027,

http://news.workercn.cn/c/2010/12/04/101204080946278225782.html

and 1004 capacity for CRH380BL

http://www.jl.chinanews.com.cn/news.aspx?id=10919


----------



## greenlion

just found official datas from CSR website, CRH380A: 490 (but actually 494 in real service,interesting), CRH380AL 1027.

http://www.cqsf.com/portalEn/gsdcz/crha/A020201index_1.htm


----------



## CarlosBlueDragon

Have CRH 380 from Tianjin to Beijing??

I will come to Tianjin in May 2011

Yes or Maybe or Nope??


----------



## greenlion

CarlosBlueDragon said:


> Have CRH 380 from Tianjin to Beijing??
> 
> I will come to Tianjin in May 2011
> 
> Yes or Maybe or Nope??


Currently Beijing - Tianjin HSR only service with CRH3C (Siemens Velaro CN)

But maybe CRH380 will be added in next year, all of the three series have chances.


----------



## CarlosBlueDragon

greenlion said:


> No, Currently Beijing - Tianjin HSR only service with CRH3C (Siemens Velaro CN)


Oh, Can u send to show let me see the pic about HSR and CRH3C??


----------



## 33Hz

greenlion said:


> just found official datas from CSR website, CRH380A: 490 (but actually 494 in real service,interesting), CRH380AL 1027.
> 
> http://www.cqsf.com/portalEn/gsdcz/crha/A020201index_1.htm



OK that solves the seat mystery, but that makes the power/energy one worse...

Is it a case of someone assuming the power quoted is for 380 km/h? Or were they running over rated power for the record?


----------



## spkg

gramercy said:


> its nice to have thousands of engineers working for you for slightly more than a bowl of rice


I find that comment both offensive and untrue, I think your more suited to www.stormfront.org but cool profile picture.

typical monthly salary for an engineer these days is at least 5000 RMB, or 60,000 RMB a year, that's around $10,000 USD, first of all, let's factor in purchasing power, which would make it equal about $22,000. Which is actually after tax, because that's how your salary is usually quoted.

I don't know too much about the US, so i'll compare that to a Canadian engineer, who makes typically $50,000 a year, taxes alone would turn that into just around $35,000, and that's if he qualifies for the typical tax breaks. 

Factory employees are usually given accommodations and food in China. All of that needs to come out the Canadian engineer's salary. I know the accommodations given in China aren't exactly five star, so i'm going to equate that to a $600/month bachelor pad in Canada, and the crappy food equates to about $200/month, that about $10,000 altogether.

so in a fair comparison, its more like $22,000 vs. $25,000. 

Anyways, back to trains, where did Alstom go all of a sudden? why isn't there a CRH380D?


----------



## spkg

I work in the Airline industry here in Canada, and I'm so glad HSR will never take off in North America like it did in China. 

One thing about the development of Chinese capability in HSR tech really got me thinking. After only working with the foreign companies for less then 10 years they were able to make the CRH380A, which, at least on paper is even better the Japanese original without any help. Ethical issues with IP aside, that's still an incredible achievement. 

Airbus has already started A320 production at their Tianjian plant, and the MD-80s have been in manufactured in China for ages. Could we see the same thing happen for the aviation industry in China? I know all about Comac and the C919, but we didn't really think too much of them here in Canada, but could we all be flying in Chinese planes by the end of the decade?

Anyways the CRH380A look good, but boy dose the CRH380C ever look sexy, i wonder if they're going to make a 380kph sleeper car, I'd love to be able to go to bed in Hong Kong and wake up in Beijing, and not wait my entire day flying.


----------



## spkg

Mika Montwald said:


> Pent_Up Economic Synergy released by China CRH *Harmony* Express is l


LOL, River Crab Express!!!


----------



## yaohua2000

spkg said:


> Anyways the CRH380A look good, but boy dose the CRH380C ever look sexy, i wonder if they're going to make a 380kph sleeper car, I'd love to be able to go to bed in Hong Kong and wake up in Beijing, and not wait my entire day flying.


At 380 km/h, Hong Kong–Beijing takes only 7 hours, not enough sleep. Better for Beijing–Urumqi.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> At 380 km/h, Hong Kong–Beijing takes only 7 hours, not enough sleep. Better for Beijing–Urumqi.


Or Hong Kong-Harbin. Or what about Beijing-Haian.

In 2011, Beijing-Wuhan shall open, as shall Guangzhou-Shenzhen. The trip time Guangzhou-Wuhan is now 3:16. Wuhan-Beijing shall be longer, at about 1200 k. So, with 380 km/h Beijing-Wuhan and then limited to 350 km/h Wuhan-Shenzhen, what shall the trip time be?

On Moscow-St. Petersburg, overnight trains travel for about 7:55.


----------



## spkg

I know i'll get pounded over this, but as do have a airline bias i fell compelled to state the following:

I simply don't see the advantage HSR should have over air travel, i think alot of the advantages that HSR currently enjoys over planes, are A. temporary, B. because of government policies, C. doesn't apply to many Chinese cities, let me elaborate:

In a pure competition between travel times, 3-4 hours HSR journeys seem to be the tipping point, but that assumes a few factors:

1. Checking luggage takes a long time, most traveler these days don't check luggage anyways, and with overhead storage being such a big issue nowadays, you can bet new planes will come with bigger bins for your carry ons.

2. It takes a long time to get to the airport from city centers, it is a factor when rail stations are at city centers like they are in Europe, but in China, most of the new Railway stations built for the HSR are actually way outside the city. The only fairly good one i can think of is Beijing South. I know Guangzhou South is almost an hour drive away, and Shanghai's HSR station is actually connected to the airport. (which i think is a fantastic idea, but why connect the HSR station why not connect instead to a station with more local or regional trains)

3. Air travel wastes time with security, but I think that might change when HSR, god forbid, starts to cross into the minds of terrorists. The whole reason planes were such a high value target was because how easy it was to cause harm to so many people at a time, but with 380kph trains, i have to assume that an explosion that causes a derailment wouldn't be very survivable for most of the passengers. How many terror threats do you think it would take for railway stations to be wand up just as tightly as airports.

So really, without that benefit of time saving, the advantages are just about reliability and comfort.

in terms of reliability, i really think government biases are at fault here. The railway is still completely state-own, but the airlines are pretty much running like they are private. The railway got billions to upgrade the singling and scheduling systems, while China's ATC system still uses 1970's technology. The CRH is also relatively small right now, and the pride of the system, thing might chance when they become just another train, all you have to do is looking back, reliability in Chinese railway wasn't exactly a shining star. 

As for comfort, I know European HSR usually have pretty good seat areas, but the new CRH second class seats feel just like airplane seats to me, and for the few who think they've got a few more inches on the trains, just you wait to see what they do after losing money for a few years straight.

I just think if the Chinese Government gave aviation 1/5 of the money for infrastructure, tighten up on some of the policies, and subsidize the airlines as much as they did the HSR, and pump tens of billions into developing better indigenous planes, the big three airlines would actually have a fighting chance.


----------



## gramercy

you do realize they are building airports the size of CDG or FRA by the dozens right?


----------



## Fan Railer

greenlion said:


> just found official datas from CSR website, CRH380A: 490 (but actually 494 in real service,interesting), CRH380AL 1027.
> 
> http://www.cqsf.com/portalEn/gsdcz/crha/A020201index_1.htm


Very interesting link, but it also raises another question: It states that the Traction power of the 380A is 9600 kW, but according to the released specifications, it should only have 8800 kW, unless there was a design change that we were not aware about until now...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

spkg said:


> 3. Air travel wastes time with security, but I think that might change when HSR, god forbid, starts to cross into the minds of terrorists. The whole reason planes were such a high value target was because how easy it was to cause harm to so many people at a time, but with 380kph trains, i have to assume that an explosion that causes a derailment wouldn't be very survivable for most of the passengers. How many terror threats do you think it would take for railway stations to be wand up just as tightly as airports.


Look at Spain. The Madrid explosions tried to aim at AVE, too. AVE is still expanding.


----------



## foxmulder

spkg said:


> I know i'll get pounded over this, but as do have a airline bias i fell compelled to state the following:
> 
> I simply don't see the advantage HSR should have over air travel, i think alot of the advantages that HSR currently enjoys over planes, are A. temporary, B. because of government policies, C. doesn't apply to many Chinese cities, let me elaborate:
> 
> In a pure competition between travel times, 3-4 hours HSR journeys seem to be the tipping point, but that assumes a few factors:
> 
> 1. Checking luggage takes a long time, most traveler these days don't check luggage anyways, and with overhead storage being such a big issue nowadays, you can bet new planes will come with bigger bins for your carry ons.
> 
> 2. It takes a long time to get to the airport from city centers, it is a factor when rail stations are at city centers like they are in Europe, but in China, most of the new Railway stations built for the HSR are actually way outside the city. The only fairly good one i can think of is Beijing South. I know Guangzhou South is almost an hour drive away, and Shanghai's HSR station is actually connected to the airport. (which i think is a fantastic idea, but why connect the HSR station why not connect instead to a station with more local or regional trains)
> 
> 3. Air travel wastes time with security, but I think that might change when HSR, god forbid, starts to cross into the minds of terrorists. The whole reason planes were such a high value target was because how easy it was to cause harm to so many people at a time, but with 380kph trains, i have to assume that an explosion that causes a derailment wouldn't be very survivable for most of the passengers. How many terror threats do you think it would take for railway stations to be wand up just as tightly as airports.
> 
> So really, without that benefit of time saving, the advantages are just about reliability and comfort.
> 
> in terms of reliability, i really think government biases are at fault here. The railway is still completely state-own, but the airlines are pretty much running like they are private. The railway got billions to upgrade the singling and scheduling systems, while China's ATC system still uses 1970's technology. The CRH is also relatively small right now, and the pride of the system, thing might chance when they become just another train, all you have to do is looking back, reliability in Chinese railway wasn't exactly a shining star.
> 
> As for comfort, I know European HSR usually have pretty good seat areas, but the new CRH second class seats feel just like airplane seats to me, and for the few who think they've got a few more inches on the trains, just you wait to see what they do after losing money for a few years straight.
> 
> I just think if the Chinese Government gave aviation 1/5 of the money for infrastructure, tighten up on some of the policies, and subsidize the airlines as much as they did the HSR, and pump tens of billions into developing better indigenous planes, the big three airlines would actually have a fighting chance.



You should take another look to pictures of 2nd class seats. I would say leg room is like twice what is offered in airliners (probably more). So, train is definitely more comfortable. 

For me, as long as I am not crossing the whole country in hurry (like Beijing-HK) I would choose trains anytime over planes.


----------



## Nozumi 300

spkg said:


> Anyways, back to trains, where did Alstom go all of a sudden? why isn't there a CRH380D?


They got themseleves banned from the mainland in HSR for the next century or so due to a comment in the past :lol:


----------



## daddylonglegs

SPKG-

Oil is peaking as we speak and air travel will only be for the rich in 10 to 20 years. Trains are powered electrically, planes are not. Sure we'll try ripping apart as much as Canada as we can to take, i mean buy, your tar sands oil, but production rates can't ramp up fast enough. China is making a good future move by taking this route. The US is not in a good position as oil supplies dwindle.


----------



## dumbfword

daddylonglegs said:


> SPKG-
> 
> Oil is peaking as we speak and air travel will only be for the rich in 10 to 20 years. Trains are powered electrically, planes are not. Sure we'll try ripping apart as much as Canada as we can to take, i mean buy, your tar sands oil, but production rates can't ramp up fast enough. China is making a good future move by taking this route. The US is not in a good position as oil supplies dwindle.


China is the second largest consumer of oil and it's growing every month.


----------



## highway35

dumbfword said:


> China is the second largest consumer of oil and it's growing every month.


Which makes it even more important to develop an alternative mode of transportation that is less dependent on oil.


----------



## Mika Montwald

spkg said:


> .... ....
> 
> 1. Checking luggage takes a long time, most traveler these days don't check luggage anyways, and with overhead storage being such a big issue nowadays, you can bet new planes will come with bigger bins for your carry ons.
> 
> 2. It takes a long time to get to the airport from city centers, it is a factor when rail stations are at city centers like they are in Europe, but in China, most of the new Railway stations built for the HSR are actually way outside the city. The only fairly good one i can think of is Beijing South. I know Guangzhou South is almost an hour drive away, and Shanghai's HSR station is actually connected to the airport. (which i think is a fantastic idea, but why connect the HSR station why not connect instead to a station with more local or regional trains)
> 
> 3. Air travel wastes time with security, but I think that might change when HSR, god forbid, starts to cross into the minds of terrorists. The whole reason planes were such a high value target was because how easy it was to cause harm to so many people at a time, but with 380kph trains, i have to assume that an explosion that causes a derailment wouldn't be very survivable for most of the passengers. How many terror threats do you think it would take for railway stations to be wand up just as tightly as airports.
> 
> So really, without that benefit of time saving, the advantages are just about reliability and comfort.
> 
> in terms of reliability, i really think government biases are at fault here. The railway is still completely state-own, but the airlines are pretty much running like they are private. The railway got billions to upgrade the singling and scheduling systems, while China's ATC system still uses 1970's technology. The CRH is also relatively small right now, and the pride of the system, thing might chance when they become just another train, all you have to do is looking back, reliability in Chinese railway wasn't exactly a shining star.
> 
> As for comfort, I know European HSR usually have pretty good seat areas, but the new CRH second class seats feel just like airplane seats to me, and for the few who think they've got a few more inches on the trains, just you wait to see what they do after losing money for a few years straight.
> 
> ... ...


Here comes the pounding ... ... :jk:

1) Airplane is NOT a GREEN tech at this moment, since Airplane does not run on electricity. 
Airplane Carbon footprint per person is way too high. 
(HST + UHST) are the way to go for non-mountainous continental traveling. 
Airplane is useful only for crossing the ocean or traveling to hard to reach spots (Mountains, Islands). 


2) China cities are growing so fast that the city suburb of today will soon become the city center of tomorrow. 
At this moment, major China cities center are way, way, too crowded beyond belief. 
Thus, proper city planning requires China to build their new HST station 1 hour away (minimum) from the city center. 
Since the lifespan of new HST station is exceeding 60 years, then after 15 years, the HST station will become the city center. 


-------------------------------------------------

3) RE: Terrorist attacking HST system

I personally hope 100% of China Central and Local Leadership are absolutely aware that certain leading nation 
has been continuously grooming certain terrors group to attack and sabotage China. (Hint: Rebiya Kadeer) 


The anti terrorists solution is the implementation of this technology *IOT -- M2M2H2M* below. 

The next Tech -- Revolution ... ...

*IOT -- M2M2H2M* = Internet 3.0 & beyond 
= ( Internet of Things -- Machine to Machine to Human to Machine Automatic Communication Tech ) 

*IOT -- M2M2H2M* will automatically keep track of everything that relate to China CRH HST system 
-- from all the tiny little parts on the Train (each Bogie wheel) and the Track (each slab) to the passenger ID background and history. 

Each part can automatically communicate with all the other parts. 

-------------------------------------------------

*IOT -- M2M2H2M* will allow each little tiny part to immediately alert everybody (Machine and Human) 
if there is some unusual or some unauthorized activity occurring. 

For example: some terrorist (Rebiya Kadeer) is planting a bomb on the CRH track.


China has been treating all Uighur, Tibetans and all other minorities very well since the founding of PRC nation, thus I personally 
hope majority of Uighur and Tibetans will REFUSE to be brainwashed easily by the certain leading western nation. 

-------------------------------------------------

China has setup the budget to spend 2 Trillion RMB for *IOT -- M2M2H2M* -- R&D until year 2015. 
I believe some of the new *IOT -- M2M2H2M* tech has been implemented on the CRH system (Tracks, Trains, Stations). 
I am certain that someone somewhere are accusing China of stealing this tech too, 
even though the *IOT* tech has not been invented yet by the west. :bowtie:


-------------------------------------------------

4) China Ministry of Railways will not squeeze more seats into a CRH train 
(reducing comfort) in order to generate more income because of the philosophy below. 


China Central Leadership (non-democratic government epper is so visionary that 
they are always thinking long term explosive and sustainable economic development. :applause:

Thus, losing money on the CRH system is tolerable, because the CRH HST will function as the catalyst for 
explosive and sustainable economic growth along the HST corridors for so many years to come 
by increasing and MULTIPLYING the productivity of everyone who are using the CRH HST multiple folds. 


This explosive and sustainable economic growth will generate so much Return on Investment (ROI) 
that DWARF the cost of building and maintaining CRH HST system. 

It always baffles me -- why so many western economists and government leaders (democratically elected BTW) 
on the western nations have been overlooking or unable to see the above (8+8 = 88) Economic Synergy formula. 
:dunno: --- :dunno:


----------



## spkg

gramercy said:


> you do realize they are building airports the size of CDG or FRA by the dozens right?


I don't think airports are the bottle necks in the system right now, the main issue has got to be ATC (air traffic control).



chornedsnorkack said:


> Look at Spain. The Madrid explosions tried to aim at AVE, too. AVE is still expanding.


that bombing was targeted at commuter train and of the slow speeds, it never caused a derailment, the Spanish government, holding more treat the source not the symptom approach pulled out of Iraq, I don't think a hard liner country like the China or US would take that approach.



foxmulder said:


> You should take another look to pictures of 2nd class seats. I would say leg room is like twice what is offered in airliners (probably more). So, train is definitely more comfortable.
> 
> For me, as long as I am not crossing the whole country in hurry (like Beijing-HK) I would choose trains anytime over planes.


Maybe its because i'm not a very tall person so i don't feel to much of a difference, in terms of numbers, I know seat pitch on Economy class for a typical plane in China is 32 inches, or 818mm, i remember seeing somewhere 900 and something for second class in CRH, but i can't find the link, dose anyone have any links technical data?



Nozumi 300 said:


> They got themseleves banned from the mainland in HSR for the next century or so due to a comment in the past :lol:


is this actually fact or just rumor?



daddylonglegs said:


> SPKG-
> 
> Oil is peaking as we speak and air travel will only be for the rich in 10 to 20 years. Trains are powered electrically, planes are not. Sure we'll try ripping apart as much as Canada as we can to take, i mean buy, your tar sands oil, but production rates can't ramp up fast enough. China is making a good future move by taking this route. The US is not in a good position as oil supplies dwindle.


trains that run on electricity means they run on coal in China, hardly better then oil wouldn't you say. Besides if you've got a few billion to spend, tens of thousands of engineers, and a mind for long term planning beyond just 4 years at a time. why not come up with alternative energy for planes, staring with prop planes at first and move up.

electric motors powering props are much lighter then the current turbo props, and hydrogen fuel has better energy to weight ratio then kerosene, also planes don't have to worry about the same problems as cars with hydrogen. If you hit something with a plane you're dead anyways, so don't have to worry about hydrogen tank exploding on impact, and gas station isn't too much of a problem because all they have to do is install them in airports.

And that's just one method amongst many.


----------



## dumbfword

CRH5 comes from Alstom.


----------



## spkg

Mika Montwald said:


> 1) Airplane Carbon footprint per person is way too high.


most studies either assume full capacity or the same capacity factor between planes and trains, but typical load factors on planes are 80% and climbing, with HSR in China is hover at around 50%, when you take that into account the different isn't all that much any more. And trains that run on electricity generated by coal isn't a whole lot better than burning kerosene. 



Mika Montwald said:


> 2) Since the lifespan of new HST station is exceeding 60 years, then after 15 years, the HST station will become the city center.


So won't airports become part of the city centers as well? 



Mika Montwald said:


> 3) The anti terrorists solution is the implementation of this technology IOT -- M2M2H2M


Once again, why can't that be used for making air travel safer?



Mika Montwald said:


> 4) China Ministry of Railways will not squeeze more seats...losing money on the CRH system is tolerable


That's sort of my whole point, if the government is willing to subsidize air travel as much as they done for rail, than chinese planes would have comfortable seats as well, amongst other improvements.



Mika Montwald said:


> western nations have been overlooking or unable to see the above (8+8 = 88) Economic Synergy formula.
> :dunno: --- :dunno:


I totally agree transport systems have huge economical externalities, but while the extra benefits of HSR are taken into the calculation, ones for air travel are sort of being tossed aside.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

spkg said:


> that bombing was targeted at commuter train and of the slow speeds, it never caused a derailment,


A bomb was found on AVE tracks, too, but it did not explode.


spkg said:


> trains that run on electricity means they run on coal in China, hardly better then oil wouldn't you say.


A lot better. There is much more coal than oil in ground, and China has a lot of it.


spkg said:


> electric motors powering props are much lighter then the current turbo props,


Are they?


spkg said:


> and hydrogen fuel has better energy to weight ratio then kerosene, also planes don't have to worry about the same problems as cars with hydrogen.


Except what do you produce hydrogen from?


----------



## 33Hz

^ right, hydrogen is an energy carrier, not a fuel.

China also just did a deal to buy 1000 Westinghouse nuclear reactors.


----------



## spkg

chornedsnorkack said:


> A bomb was found on AVE tracks, too, but it did not explode.


what do you think the situation would have been if it did explode, and sad to say but things are a lot worse now then that were in 2004, if the same thing god forbid happens on the Acela Express, even if the attack fails, you can get you as$ you're going to get some genital groping every time you board a train as well. 



chornedsnorkack said:


> A lot better. There is much more coal than oil in ground, and China has a lot of it.


its not like China's completely dry of oil, and yes i do think coal is just as bad, certainly in terms of pollution, and oil doesn't creates obnoxious uneducated coal mine owners, who got rich over night, running the world's tourist spots soiling the imagine of the Chinese people. 



chornedsnorkack said:


> Are they?


since there no prototypes of electric motors for aviation yet, i can only compare internal combustion engine in cars with electric counter-parts, and yes they are lighter.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Except what do you produce hydrogen from?


well, hopefully by the time hydrogen technology is widely implemented, China will generate most of its electricity from nuclear, hydro, or other alternatives.

And no i'm not saying planes are better than HSR, i just think we should give up on it just because its got a few downsides. The law of diminishing return sates that every additional dollar spent on HSR will be less effective then the last. so instead of building a HSR route from Xi'an to Lanzhou that no one will ever ride, why not spent it on aviation instead.


----------



## Mika Montwald

spkg said:


> ... ... And trains that run on electricity generated by coal isn't a whole lot better than burning kerosene.
> 
> ... ...


1) At this moment, China is investing another 2 Trillions RMB until year 2015 
(From Total Budget of 10 Trillions RMB) to do R&D and install Green Power Tech such as (Solar, Nuclear Fission, Nuclear Fusion, and Wind). 


So when China made the breakthrough in Nuclear Fusion tech, 
Usage of Coal & Oil can be dramatically reduced to almost zero. 


The Solar power has been implemented on some of the new CRH HST stations roof (Shanghai & Wuhan). 

When you have time -- please read the thread below (Page 4 -- Post #71): 
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1270459&page=4



2) China is also doing R&D on Electric Airplane, but this field can not be the major focus 
-- since China is sitting on huge stretch of continent. 
China population is approaching 1.4 Billions, thus electric Airplane can not function as the major transportation backbone. 


3) (*8+8 = 88*) Economic Synergy formula
In terms of maximum bang for the buck -- CRH HST will beat Airplane hands down 
-- in order to function as as the CATALYST for explosive and sustainable economic growth along the travel corridors from major city A to major city B.

Airplane can not make the IN & OUT STOP as easy and as fast as the CRH HST.


----------



## Nozumi 300

spkg said:


> is this actually fact or just rumor?


The part that is fact is that Alstom complained about the MOR after the manufacturing of the CRH5. And if you know anything about Chinese culture, the outcome is getting shunned indefinitely
That's why you see Alstom begging to try to get back into China's high speed train market with a non-articulated model of the AGV. Unlike before when Alstom outright refused to sell the AGV to the MOR.


----------



## spkg

Mika Montwald said:


> 1) At this moment, China is investing another 2 Trillions RMB until year 2015
> (From Total Budget of 10 Trillions RMB) to do R&D and install Green Power Tech such as (Solar, Nuclear Fission, Nuclear Fusion, and Wind).


China is doing a fantastic job with alternative energy, but its still going to take a lot time even at the Chinese pase. To simplify things, let break down the situation into the current situation and the future situation. At the moment, rails are still effectively running on Coal power, and that's no better than planes running on petroleum products. In the "future", when renewable low pollution alternative energies become readily available, plane could take advantages of those as well if the government is willing to spend the money for research now! 



Mika Montwald said:


> 2) China is also doing R&D on Electric Airplane, but this field can not be the major focus


I think that should be a major focus, there's a lot of potential in that. If China every wants to be a superpower, its not going to get there by copying foreign designs. Aircraft research is prohibitively expensive, so the only firms that could muster the funds to do it is Boeing and Airbus, but neither really has an incentive to do any research on electric aviation, even if they wanted to engine maker like RR and GE will give them sh*t.

China on the other hand obviously have policy makers that think way beyond the short term, and a government that's very much willing to invest in research that pays off in the long run. Imagine what would happen if Comac comes out with a hydrogen plane, that carry more than 100 people, needs no fossil fuels, creates no pollution, and saves costs, while everyone else's design is 5 year's away from test flights. China has an opportunity to do exactly that right now, 



Mika Montwald said:


> 3) In terms of maximum bang for the buck -- CRH HST will beat Airplane hands down


Take one of the least useful CRH Line, i'd say probably the Xi'an Lanzhou section, and compare that to the areas that desperately needs money, the entire ATC network of the country. Can you honestly say the former gets better bang for the buck? The HSR segment will probably cost around 8 billion USD, it took NavCanada less than a billion to completely overhaul the system in Canada. China's system is bigger, but the Chinese have always found ways to do things cheaper then the west, I'd be surprised if the total cost comes out to be more then 5 billion.


----------



## spkg

Nozumi 300 said:


> The part that is fact is that Alstom complained about the MOR after the manufacturing of the CRH5. And if you know anything about Chinese culture, the outcome is getting shunned indefinitely
> That's why you see Alstom begging to try to get back into China's high speed train market with a non-articulated model of the AGV. Unlike before when Alstom outright refused to sell the AGV to the MOR.


if they got shunned, how come they still have such a big presence in the new light rail or metro lines around the country?


----------



## Mika Montwald

Nozumi 300 said:


> ... ...
> 
> That's why you see Alstom begging to try to get back into China's high speed train market with a non-articulated model of the AGV. Unlike before when Alstom outright refused to sell the AGV to the MOR.


The heavy price of French Alstom arrogance since year 2000. 
See -- 1 Small Wrong Arrogance Step, next in a blink of an eye -- you have fallen from major player to minor player. 


Now it is too late to recover, because China CRH train have performed much faster than Alstom AGV. 

1) When Alstom AGV improves its operating performance to 400+ km/h, China CRH will already achieve 560+ km/h. 


2) Let's assume the democratic Alstom can progress very fast. 

When Alstom AGV improves its operating performance to 500+ km/h in year 2015, 
China will be testing their new MAGLEVAC train running 1000+ km/h. 
Than, I am certain we will hear so many comments that China is getting away yet again, with stealing MAGLEVAC tech from some other nations. 


3) By the year 2020, Alstom may consider quitting AGV HST manufacturing, and investing in Cheese business instead. 
:hahaha: :rofl:


----------



## dumbfword

Why would they need to quit AGV? Do the Japanese need to quit making Shinkansen trains because the MOR isn't buying more trains from Japanese makers? France has two LGV lines under construction with many more planned.


----------



## snow is red

gramercy said:


> its nice to have thousands of engineers working for you for slightly more than a bowl of rice


And what do engineers in Hungary get ? Two bowls of rice, right ? Well I guess that's why they came up with the red sludge masterpiece and......Nothing else.

PS : Think before you speak.


----------



## Nozumi 300

spkg said:


> if they got shunned, how come they still have such a big presence in the new light rail or metro lines around the country?


Alstom is shunned in the HSR department, not the subways. Two different sections of Alstom.


----------



## Mika Montwald

spkg said:


> ... ... and compare that to the areas that desperately needs money, the entire ATC network of the country. Can you honestly say the former gets better bang for the buck? The HSR segment will probably cost around 8 billion USD, it took NavCanada less than a billion to completely overhaul the system in Canada. China's system is bigger, but the Chinese have always found ways to do things cheaper then the west, I'd be surprised if the total cost comes out to be more then 5 billion.


Sorry: Off topic 
In order not to derail this thread -- send me the next back & forth via PM


At this point in time in China does not lack money to invest. 
In fact China problem is the other way around. 
China has way too much FX reserve (2.7+ Trillions USD & counting). 

Since US Fed Bank is printing money like there is no tomorrow, 
which means --- USD = Benjamin Franklin Brand Toilet Paper. 

The dilemma is -- How to invest China money wisely in what technology sector first?


1) How did you come to the conclusion that China ATC (Air Traffic Controller) system is still using 1970 tech ??

2) Please show me some link / article RE: China Outdated ATC

3) Does NavCanada has IOT -- M2M component inside it?

4) Are you working on this ATC field or your company install NavCanada? 

5) If you are on this ATC field, --- Did your company ask FAITC (Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada) to help promote this product inside China ?? 


As you know, Canadians have the habit of putting all their eggs 
covered by Red Maple Leafs in 1 basket on the Land of the Decline. 
(Allowing Declining Bald Eagle to suck Canadian Eggs with impunity). hno:


----------



## gramercy

snow is red said:


> And what do engineers in Hungary get ? Two bowls of rice, right ? Well I guess that's why they came up with the red sludge masterpiece and......Nothing else.
> 
> PS : Think before you speak.


were you the one who broke into my gmail account from a chinese ip a couple of weeks ago?

perhaps you people should read the former comment i quoted, boasting about the progress in china

anyhow, maybe a foxconn suicider employee can enlighten some

oh wait


----------



## fragel

snow is red said:


> And what do engineers in Hungary get ? Two bowls of rice, right ? Well I guess that's why they came up with the red sludge masterpiece and......Nothing else.
> 
> PS : Think before you speak.


don't feed stupid trolls. everybody can see what a clown it is.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

spkg said:


> what do you think the situation would have been if it did explode, and sad to say but things are a lot worse now then that were in 2004, if the same thing god forbid happens on the Acela Express, even if the attack fails, you can get you as$ you're going to get some genital groping every time you board a train as well.


High speed trains Moscow-St. Petersburg have been blown up, twice. What is the security for passengers like?


spkg said:


> its not like China's completely dry of oil, and yes i do think coal is just as bad, certainly in terms of pollution, and oil doesn't creates obnoxious uneducated coal mine owners, who got rich over night, running the world's tourist spots soiling the imagine of the Chinese people.


Most of it is not a problem that is important for Chinese government. Facts are, China is importing oil, but is not importing coal.



spkg said:


> since there no prototypes of electric motors for aviation yet, i can only compare internal combustion engine in cars with electric counter-parts, and yes they are lighter.


Not if you count the weight of accumulators.


spkg said:


> And no i'm not saying planes are better than HSR, i just think we should give up on it just because its got a few downsides. The law of diminishing return sates that every additional dollar spent on HSR will be less effective then the last. so instead of building a HSR route from Xi'an to Lanzhou that no one will ever ride, why not spent it on aviation instead.


Xian-Lanzhou, I expect, will be quite popular and necessary.

China has no plans for HSR into Tibet because of mountains and permafrost. Just slow railways. They are building airports, too - but nevertheless lots of people travel on slow trains to Lhasa.


----------



## greenlion

Test speed of CRH380BL reached 451.1km/h, but they changed the designed fomation 8M8T to 10M6T in the test, so you can say it is a modified train


----------



## greenlion

CIT400's new design by CNR Tangshan, from Modern Railway 2010


----------



## 33Hz

greenlion said:


> Test speed of CRH380BL reached 451.1km/h, but they changed the designed fomation 8M8T to 10M6T in the test, so you can say it is a modified train


Can we say it had 18.4 * (10/8) = 23MW of power?


----------



## hmmwv

greenlion said:


> Test speed of CRH380BL reached 451.1km/h, but they changed the designed fomation 8M8T to 10M6T in the test, so you can say it is a modified train


I agree that this would be considered a modified train, even though there are no engineering modification done to the trainset (i.e. change bogie). The change in configuration gave it a power advantage compare to a operating commercial train.


----------



## Ariel74

greenlion said:


> CIT400's new design by CNR Tangshan, from Modern Railway 2010


when's the version of CRH380B with modified/elongated front cone (shown in these pictures) going to come out, do you know?


----------



## snow is red

gramercy said:


> perhaps you people should read the former comment i quoted, boasting about the progress in china


Uh.....Just because Hungary is a non-progressive country, it does not mean the Hungarian people are any less boastful than the Chinese or anyone here.


----------



## Mika Montwald

> Test speed of CRH380BL reached 451.1km/h, ... ...


For those people who aggressively and *vehemently* insist that China stole the 486+ km/h HST tech from other nations, ... ... ... 

Next time before you post anything to challenge 
China Mind Boggling Technology progress, please 
consider the facts below:


1) (Year 2006) Siemens fastest Velaro (Velaro E) -- Max Operating Speed = 404 km/h 

2) (Year 2010) CSR CRH380A-6041L -- Max Operating Speed = 486 km/h 

3) (Year 2010) CNR CRH380BL -- Max Operating Speed = 451 km/hr

--------------------------------------------------

:colgate: :angel1:
Let me ask you these qualifying questions ... ...


1) If China CSR stole the (extra 82 km/h) faster speed from Siemens, then -- would not it be so easy in (Year 2010) for Siemens to run the Velaro E for the same 486+ km/h speed?

2) Why after 4 years has passed since (Year 2006) -- Siemens has not shown it can run their Velaro E at 486 km/h??

3) If stealing a tech from another country who has completely different language is so easy for China CSR, then -- would not it be much, much easier for China CNR Tangshan to steal the (extra 35 km/h) faster speed technology from CSR Qingdao who happen to be located inside China and using the same language and governed by the same Ministry of Railway --- in order to produce the same 486+ km/h performance ??

--------------------------------------------------

If you can solidly refute the above 3 questions, then 
send us more of your postings that China steal your country technology. 
Please always belittle and derogate China progress. 
Please do not be too hush and quiet. 
I personally enjoy the heated discussions.

oke: --- :hahaha:


----------



## vtfsae

Mika Montwald said:


> For those people who aggressively and *vehemently* insist that China stole the 486+ km/h HST tech from other nations, ... ... ...
> 
> Next time before you post anything to challenge
> China Mind Boggling Technology progress, please
> consider the facts below:
> 
> 
> 1) (Year 2006) Siemens fastest Velaro (Velaro E) -- Max Operating Speed = 404 km/h
> 
> 2) (Year 2010) CSR CRH380A-6041L -- Max Operating Speed = 486 km/h
> 
> 3) (Year 2010) CNR CRH380BL -- Max Operating Speed = 451 km/hr
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> :colgate: :angel1:
> Let me ask you these qualifying questions ... ...
> 
> 
> 1) If China CSR stole the (extra 82 km/h) faster speed from Siemens, then -- would not it be so easy in (Year 2010) for Siemens to run the Velaro E for the same 486+ km/h speed?
> 
> 2) Why after 4 years has passed since (Year 2006) -- Siemens has not shown it can run their Velaro E at 486 km/h??
> 
> 3) If stealing a tech from another country who has completely different language is so easy for China CSR, then -- would not it be much, much easier for China CNR Tangshan to steal the (extra 35 km/h) faster speed technology from CSR Qingdao who happen to be located inside China and using the same language and governed by the same Ministry of Railway --- in order to produce the same 486+ km/h performance ??
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> If you can solidly refute the above 3 questions, then
> send us more of your postings that China steal your country technology.
> Please always belittle and derogate China progress.
> Please do not be too hush and quiet.
> I personally enjoy the heated discussions.
> 
> oke: --- :hahaha:


well, they don't have such a nice track to run that fast...
and the point of developing a train is not to make it as fast as possible
I am not saying Chinese Companies stole or copy design from other countries, I am saying trains are not made to race


----------



## hmmwv

They race to find design flaws, and push the advancement of rail technology. If we never had the space race then many things we take as granted (GPS, DirectTV, etc) probably wouldn't exist. Otherwise why did the French or the Japanese do it.


----------



## Zero Gravity

@Mika

Nobody is saying that anymore, we had this whole discussion a while ago! Why do you bring it up again?

While I agree that China developed the CRH380-Series on their own, they should at least give some sort of credit to the Western companies they bought CRH1/2/3/4 from. Without the aquisation of these technologies the developement of the CRH380 wouldn't have been possible; still, at no point am I saying that they "stole" the technology. All I am saying is that they legitimately bought this tech and then used their just aquired know-how to develop new trains and enhance old designs, which is fine by me.

Nonetheless, you seem to me a little bit biased yourself. You are always talking about how the dollar is a worthless piece of shit and that chinese officials are brainwashed for being concerned about the public opinion in the US about China. But they are not; IMHO this is just another part of the Chinese Pragmatism; that kind that helped China to override their policys in the early 80s and start developing a functioning and prosperous economy. 
What you are forgetting is that the US sits on the biggest pile of weaponry in the entire world. China may have more soldiers, and starts catching up technology-wise. But for at least the next 20-30 years the US will still be a military super-power that beats the chinese armed forces in no time. And if the people of the US are stupid enough to vote for some tea-bagger idiot cause he said china's all mighty and dangerous and must be destroyed; oh boy, lemme tell you, you sure as hell got a problem. 
Of course there are other reasons too, but that's just the first that popped into my mind.


----------



## dumbfword

Zero Gravity said:


> @Mika
> 
> Nobody is saying that anymore, we had this whole discussion a while ago! Why do you bring it up again?
> 
> While I agree that China developed the CRH380-Series on their own, they should at least give some sort of credit to the Western companies they bought CRH1/2/3/4 from. Without the aquisation of these technologies the developement of the CRH380 wouldn't have been possible; still, at no point am I saying that they "stole" the technology. All I am saying is that they legitimately bought this tech and then used their just aquired know-how to develop new trains and enhance old designs, which is fine by me.
> 
> Nonetheless, you seem to me a little bit biased yourself. You are always talking about how the dollar is a worthless piece of shit and that chinese officials are brainwashed for being concerned about the public opinion in the US about China. But they are not; IMHO this is just another part of the Chinese Pragmatism; that kind that helped China to override their policys in the early 80s and start developing a functioning and prosperous economy.
> What you are forgetting is that the US sits on the biggest pile of weaponry in the entire world. China may have more soldiers, and starts catching up technology-wise. But for at least the next 20-30 years the US will still be a military super-power that beats the chinese armed forces in no time. And if the people of the US are stupid enough to vote for some tea-bagger idiot cause he said china's all mighty and dangerous and must be destroyed; oh boy, lemme tell you, you sure as hell got a problem.
> Of course there are other reasons too, but that's just the first that popped into my mind.


Mika has a habit of repeating himself


----------



## Palatinus

IF chinese aren't professional copyworkers, the americans are the most peaceful people in the world. 

Please Chinese, you have got many guiness, included being the best copier in the world. 

*It's not a flame*, it's the reality, what all the world think about China. 

The misfortune is that *Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Netherlands* are too small to compete alone with China, India, Brazil, Russia and USA. 

But it's certain that the north europeans are the best in the world, long long better than americans, russians, south americans or asians. 

Siemens will eventually overtake the Chinese.


----------



## Nozumi 300

Zero Gravity said:


> @Mika
> While I agree that China developed the CRH380-Series on their own, they should at least give some sort of credit to the Western companies they bought CRH1/2/3/4 from. Without the aquisation of these technologies the developement of the CRH380 wouldn't have been possible; still, at no point am I saying that they "stole" the technology. All I am saying is that they legitimately bought this tech and then used their just aquired know-how to develop new trains and enhance old designs, which is fine by me.


There's a reason why no one replies to those post


----------



## dumbfword

Nozumi 300 said:


> There's a reason why no one replies to those post


You did. :lol:


----------



## Bandit

dumbfword said:


> Mika has a habit of repeating himself


Like you don't?


:cheers:
:cheers:
:cheers:
:cheers:
:cheers:


----------



## dumbfword

Bandit said:


> Like you don't?
> 
> 
> :cheers:
> :cheers:
> :cheers:
> :cheers:
> :cheers:


:Z White knighting and five smiles. Thank you! :lol:


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## greenlion

CRH380BL top speed in test run at Jinghu HSR is 457 km/h, Official news confirmed today!

http://beijing.qianlong.com/3825/2010/12/07/[email protected]



> “12月5日CRH380B刚刚在京沪高铁徐州到蚌埠的先导段进行了试车，时间虽然不长，但是我们跑出了457.0公里/小时的高速。”中国北车集团CRH380B项目组总设计师李瑞淳用这样一个有力的数字来介绍CRH380B。


----------



## LHCHL

Palatinus said:


> IF chinese aren't professional copyworkers, the americans are the most peaceful people in the world.
> 
> Please Chinese, you have got many guiness, included being the best copier in the world.
> 
> *It's not a flame*, it's the reality, what all the world think about China.
> 
> The misfortune is that *Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Netherlands* are too small to compete alone with China, India, Brazil, Russia and USA.
> 
> But it's certain that the north europeans are the best in the world, long long better than americans, russians, south americans or asians.
> 
> Siemens will eventually overtake the Chinese.


I know I'm feeding a troll here, but that last sentence deserve some comment, for it to hold true Siemens will need to admit China overtook them, which contradict with other claims on copying (you can not overtake by copying)

I think it should be noticeable, given this comment that the general accusations of copying are mostly oriented toward self comfort and trying to reconcile the contradiction between their pride and unforgiving facts. 

In other words, there's no point in arguing Chinese trains are indeed more advanced, they already know.


----------



## Bandit

Fact is some countries cannot be number one without slanting the world in their favor by controlling world institutions and making sure everyone follows their rules in the guise of the rule of law. China is not mentioned in the bible despite what coded desperate spin they make of some cryptic name mentioned once. And don't give the bull spin about the "Orient" and Kings of the East crap. The Orient when the Bible was written was the Middle East. If God wrote the bible wouldn't he have known that China exists or the Americas? China's existence shows the institutional lies of such beliefs. That pretty much is the theme of everything else too. The people in denial are set in their beliefs in whatever and they're angry at China because it doesn't follow along and perpetuate their lies. There were thosed asked President Richard Nixon is allying with the Chinese against the Soviets dangerous and going to turn against the US in the future. He wasn't worried because he believe China's population was going to be so burdensome that they wouldn't amount to more than they are now.


All the trolls in here are here because their countries are failing mired in their own recession. They have to attempt to beat down those doing better than them because that is the only way they can feel superior. They thought it was going to be worse for China because China depended on them for existing. Look at what happened. China is continuing to hum along without them cushioning many other countries along the way against their recession of their own making. What they said was impossible to their economy because they were so advanced happened anyway. Another myth busted. If they knew what they were talking about in the first place, they wouldn't be in the economic mess they're in now.


----------



## dumbfword

Bandit said:


> Fact is some countries cannot be number one without slanting the world in their favor by controlling world institutions and making sure everyone follows their rules in the guise of the rule of law. China is not mentioned in the bible despite what coded desperate spin they make of some cryptic name mentioned once. And don't give the bull spin about the "Orient" and Kings of the East crap. The Orient when the Bible was written was the Middle East. If God wrote the bible wouldn't he have known that China exists or the Americas? China's existence shows the institutional lies of such beliefs. That pretty much is the theme of everything else too. The people in denial are set in their beliefs in whatever and they're angry at China because it doesn't follow along and perpetuate their lies. There were thosed asked President Richard Nixon is allying with the Chinese against the Soviets dangerous and going to turn against the US in the future. He wasn't worried because he believe China's population was going to be so burdensome that they wouldn't amount to more than they are now.
> 
> 
> All the trolls in here are here because their countries are failing mired in their own recession. They have to attempt to beat down those doing better than them because that is the only way they can feel superior. They thought it was going to be worse for China because China depended on them for existing. Look at what happened. China is continuing to hum along without them cushioning many other countries along the way against their recession of their own making. What they said was impossible to their economy because they were so advanced happened anyway. Another myth busted. If they knew what they were talking about in the first place, they wouldn't be in the economic mess they're in now.


Great blog post. wait. wasn't this a train thread?


----------



## Bandit

And your petty nationalistic insecurities about China have nothing to with this thread. :lol:

:cheers:
:cheers:
:cheers:
:cheers:
:cheers:


----------



## spkg

chornedsnorkack said:


> High speed trains Moscow-St. Petersburg have been blown up, twice. What is the security for passengers like?


I took the HSR from St. Petersburg to Moscow just earlier this year, and yes the security was tighter then HSR in other parts of euro, the delay wasn't big because the volume wasn't too high, but i did have to go through one of those nude-o-scope, and unlike the Americans who are actually "smart" enough to put the screens in another room, I got to see this hot Russian girl behind me "naked".



chornedsnorkack said:


> Most of it is not a problem that is important for Chinese government. Facts are, China is importing oil, but is not importing coal.


Airplanes use fractions of the total oil consumption of the country, replacing planes with trains aren't going to help energy security by a whole lot.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Not if you count the weight of accumulators.


the whole point of hydrogen is that it doesn't need accumulators, and hydrogen is lighter than gas. 



chornedsnorkack said:


> Xian-Lanzhou, I expect, will be quite popular and necessary.
> 
> China has no plans for HSR into Tibet because of mountains and permafrost. Just slow railways. They are building airports, too - but nevertheless lots of people travel on slow trains to Lhasa.


I did the whole Tibetan Rail thing last year, and i flew into Lanzhou and boarded the train, and from the people i met on the train, that was usually the case. besides, most people on holiday aren't going to care too much about speed. HSR is all about business travelers, and you have to agree that demand is a not as great on the Xi'an to Lanzhou compared to the rest of China.


----------



## dumbfword

Bandit said:


> And your petty nationalistic insecurities about China have nothing to with this thread. :lol:
> 
> :cheers:
> :cheers:
> :cheers:
> :cheers:
> :cheers:


Do overuse of smiles make it seem like the post is more important ? Also. Which "nationalistic insecurities" about China? Read people's post next time. . pm with anyone messages or smiles. no longer any need to derail the thread.


----------



## Bandit

dumbfword said:


> Do overuse of smiles make it seem like the post is more important ? Also. Which "nationalistic insecurities" about China? Read people's post next time. . pm with anyone messages or smiles. no longer any need to derail the thread.


More nonsense? Offended by smilie faces that aren't there? Didn't use any smilie faces in recent conversations. You're really sensitive. :lol:


----------



## dumbfword

Bandit said:


> More nonsense? Offended by smilie faces that aren't there? Didn't use any smilie faces in recent conversations. You're really sensitive. :lol:


Ignore the question and can't read. Sad. 
You need to check out your past few post in this thread. anyway. peace g. pm me like I said so *you* don't keep derailing the thread.


----------



## Zero Gravity

okay Dumbfword, i think i get your point know. 

Answering to Mika's bullshit is pointless and what he basically does is continously derailing the thread with his continous look for the conflict and rather biased and "brainwashed" opinions about China. But really the China-Bashers aren't all that better themselves - they are just as stupid. 

Goddamn, i feel like i'm in some thread about the iPhone and nobody actually talks about the iPhone and what you can to with it. No, it's more like the apple-fan-boys and the apple-haters talk about how cruel or how awesome their company is - but in the end it's just pointless jabbering....

conclusion --> me no react no more to mika


----------



## chornedsnorkack

spkg said:


> the whole point of hydrogen is that it doesn't need accumulators, and hydrogen is lighter than gas.


Ah yes. But then it does not need electric motors either.

Hydrogen can be burned in turbines or in infernal combustion engines. Hydrogen contains three times more energy than the same weight of oil - and three times less energy than the same volume of oil.

Since most drag of the airplanes comes from their weight rather than volume, building hydrogen airplanes would nearly triple their range - unless the tanks are heavy.


----------



## vtfsae

Palatinus said:


> IF chinese aren't professional copyworkers, the americans are the most peaceful people in the world.
> 
> Please Chinese, you have got many guiness, included being the best copier in the world.
> 
> *It's not a flame*, it's the reality, what all the world think about China.
> 
> The misfortune is that *Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Netherlands* are too small to compete alone with China, India, Brazil, Russia and USA.
> 
> But it's certain that the north europeans are the best in the world, long long better than americans, russians, south americans or asians.
> 
> Siemens will eventually overtake the Chinese.


well, isn't USA the top of the world? Can you not agree? Americans will be mad about you.


----------



## vtfsae

spkg said:


> the whole point of hydrogen is that it doesn't need accumulators, and hydrogen is lighter than gas.


Hydrogen requires a heavy tank which will make it a lot worse


----------



## Substructure

^^ makita09
No, I didn't mean "do you think this is propaganda ?", or "do you believe it actually happened". I meant "can you provide me with an official link regarding this record", a.k.a not from the Chinese government. I'd just like an independent confirmation this was done on an unmodified train.

I for one am happy to see China succeeding and contributing to humanity with better technology (like Japan did for instance), just as long as it's not for a nationalist purpose.
And this is precisely what I fear when I read some reactions on this thread.

After all, despite skin color, we all are a family living together on this small planet, so let's stop identifying ourselves to some pieces of land (China vs "the West"), and enjoy what can human genius create.

Thanks


----------



## Mika Montwald

Substructure said:


> ^^ ... ...
> "do you think this is propaganda ?", or "do you believe it actually happened". I meant "can you provide me with an official link regarding this record", a.k.a not from the Chinese government. I'd just like an independent confirmation this was done on an unmodified train ... ...


Let's ask you 3 questions:

1) Is French Alstom people smarter than you?

2) Why is Alstom (the modified Train Speed Record Holder) suddenly willing to share everything with China?

3) Did you do the mandatory search around with Google before you post?


----------



## foxmulder

Substructure said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> When China pretends they have run a train at 457km/h, was it on an unmodified train, and was that certified by an independent organism ? Otherwise, if their train was actually modified for speed (despite claiming the opposite), the record would be less impressive.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying the issue (I've noted that many Chinese tend to be patriotic, so it'd be great if we could avoid heated discussions  )


Actually, It is *486.1km/h* with *unmodified CRH-380A* :cheers:


----------



## Ariel74

Substructure said:


> ^^ makita09
> No, I didn't mean "do you think this is propaganda ?", or "do you believe it actually happened". I meant "can you provide me with an official link regarding this record", a.k.a not from the Chinese government. I'd just like an independent confirmation this was done on an unmodified train.
> 
> I for one am happy to see China succeeding and contributing to humanity with better technology (like Japan did for instance), just as long as it's not for a nationalist purpose.
> And this is precisely what I fear when I read some reactions on this thread.
> 
> After all, despite skin color, we all are a family living together on this small planet, so let's stop identifying ourselves to some pieces of land (China vs "the West"), and enjoy what can human genius create.
> 
> Thanks


no, there is no independent confirmation. It's probably just something thought up by a few over-enthusiatistic, over-patriotic Chinese fans. Why trust the Chinese media? They have a queer view on everything anyway.

Moreover, wouldn't it be better to get a real life rather than quibbling on the internet with for all you know jobless middle-aged men living in the basement of their mothers' houses about something as unimportant as a supposed speed record supposedly made half way around the world?

So, believe what you will, and don't take everything too seriously. 

If it ever occurs in the future that someone tells you that the only jobs there are are with Chinese firms and that you have to speak Chinese to get them, ask that someone about independent confirmation of what he claims too.... Don't you ever forget that: INDEPENDENT CONFIRMATIONS, and Chinese confirmations are not independent


----------



## hmmwv

I don't think Substructure intent to discredit the 486.1kph record, it's reasonable to ask for independent confirmation on records like this. I'm not sure what independent verification the French had during the V150 run, but probably third party abroad the train with GPS receiver? In this case it'd be extremely difficult to verify that the train is unmodified, you will have to have a great deal of understanding of the train's design to be able to look for modifications, so if you are looking someone other than the Chinese then I guess not many are qualified. On the other hand, there is really no reason for the MOR to fabricate this record, they are already ahead in the HSR arena and if you browse the most popular Chinese news sites the comments are generally negative towards breaking this or that kind of records.


----------



## cbz

hmmwv said:


> I don't think Substructure intent to discredit the 486.1kph record, it's reasonable to ask for independent confirmation on records like this. I'm not sure what independent verification the French had during the V150 run, but probably third party abroad the train with GPS receiver? .


it is not for Guinness world record , why need independent third party confirmation


----------



## binhai

umm, there's MULTIPLE videos proving the speed records, from both outside and inside the train, showing the speedometer in the driver's cabin, the speed display in the passenger cabins, and the train zooming by the station from the outside (someone can easily prove the speed of the train from video with knowledge of how far it traveled and how many seconds it took to go that far, very basic physics). So really, stop trolling.


----------



## mingrady

when china paid for those technologies, then China has the ownership. those technologies belong to china.


----------



## Fan Railer

greenlion said:


> Guys,we have four types of crh380 now,
> CRH380A/AL,CSR Sifang
> CRH380B/BL,CNR Tangshan & CNR Changchun, in cooperation with siemens.
> CRH380C, CNR Changchun, the new design disclosed at world HSR conference, as CRH380B-6201L，it will change to be CRH380C，will use HITACHI transformer and motors, of course transfered to chinese factories. 25 trainsets ordered.
> CRH380D/DL , BST


AHH so much to keep track of...... so the CRH380B/BL order remains unchanged right? and the new CRH380C is an additional tack on order??
and also wondering if you have a url link to source the statement... not that i don't believe you, just to confirm and make it look more valid on wikipedia... you know how the editors are on there....


----------



## LHCHL

For test runs, its not hard to look at the videos and caculate the speed, and I'm pretty sure its been done by other HSR manufaturers and they wouldn't be quiet if they found any problems

For the modification, it obviously had more than 5 cars, and the wheel diameter is visible in videos, independent observers wouldn't be able to say anything about what's under the cabin any more than you would from videos

As for service speed, thousands of people take the train and its not hard to figure out the time difference between departure and arrival, then divide by distance.

-

Those answers do not require in depth knowledge of HSRs, I understand some Europeans are looking for ways to convince themselves they still had the lead in HSR, that's human nature, but what you believe does not change what is in reality.


----------



## 33Hz

Are there videos or pics of the BL going at 457 km/h?


----------



## Substructure

Again people, I *absolutely don't question* the 487kph record.

I just want to hear it was set on a perfectly stock, unmodified train, and that it was acknowledge by an _independent _source (not run by the Chinese government).
Obviously, if there were some little visible modifications like the French did for their TGV record, this changes everything.


----------



## Ariel74

Substructure said:


> Obviously, if there were some little visible modifications like the French did for their TGV record, this changes everything.


some "*little*" visible modifications like the French did? That's not quite respectful of the work the French engineers had to do to create that monster V150. 

Besides, nothing about this record is so important that it can change "everything". Take it or leave it. It's not that important.


----------



## cbz

Substructure said:


> Again people, I *absolutely don't question* the 487kph record.
> 
> I just want to hear it was set on a perfectly stock, unmodified train, and that it was acknowledge by an _independent _source (not run by the Chinese government).
> Obviously, if there were some little visible modifications like the French did for their TGV record, this changes everything.


OK, in order not to disappoint you, they did do some tweaks- they installed special made over head wire in that 70 km section where they conducted 480 kph speed test. 

Here is what i posted in another thread.

----------------------------------------------------------
Here is an interesting part of HSR overhead contact wire introduction by CHR 380 chief designer zhang shuguang (sorry for chinese)

解密高科技接触网助列车高速奔跑
　　高铁列车不断挑战速度极限的一大制约因素,是如何确保列车高速运行中受电弓能持续不断从2.75万伏的高压导线中获取强大电流。
　　时速350公里的持续运营状态下,列车受电弓以每秒100多米的惊人速度“刷”过接触网,因此接触网必须高度平顺,且导电性能绝佳,列车才能持续高速奔跑。否则受电过程有一点儿中断,列车速度就会立马下降。
　　从京津城际到京沪高铁,中铁电气化局已经实现了高铁接触网系统从外方技术主导到完全自主化设计和施工的跨越。据透露,每段平均长度为1.4至1.6公里的接触网导线,架设过程中水平精度误差允许在0.1毫米以下,而京沪高铁的实际精度达到了0.03至0.05毫米的世界领先水平,这成为列车创造出486.1公里时速的重要保障。
　　尤其引以为傲的是,昨日试验运行的先导段中,有70公里的接触网导线采用完全自主研发的铜合金高强高导材料,以高强度确保接触网平顺的同时,导电性能又极佳,成为京沪先导段的“秘密武器”,“和谐号”380A列车正是在这段区间加速冲刺创造了新的历史纪录。

Google translation

Decryption technology to help train high-speed running OCS
High-Speed Rail trains constantly challenging the limits of a major constraint is how to ensure high-speed train pantograph operation can be continued from the 27,500-volt high-voltage wire to get a strong current.
350 km per hour under continuous operation, the train pantograph more than 100 meters per second at an alarming rate, "brush" over the catenary, the catenary must be highly smooth and excellent conductivity, high-speed trains to continue running. Otherwise, the process a bit by the power interruption, the train speed will immediately drop.
From the Beijing-Tianjin inter-city to the Beijing-Shanghai High Speed Railway, China Railway Electrification Bureau has achieved high-speed rail catenary system from foreign technology led to a completely independent design and construction of the cross. It was revealed that the average length of each 1.4 to 1.6 kilometers catenary wire, set up to allow the process of horizontal accuracy of 0.1 mm below the error, but the actual accuracy of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed rail reach from 0.03 to 0.05 mm of the world leading level, which became 486.1 km per hour trains to create an important protection.
In particular pride is the leading segment yesterday's test run, 70 km of catenary wires of full self-developed high strength and high conductivity copper alloy material, high strength to ensure the smooth catenary, while electrical conductivity and excellent as Beijing and Shanghai leading segment of the "secret weapon", "Harmony" 380A train is accelerated during this interval to create a new sprint record


----------



## gramercy

del


----------



## LHCHL

As far as I know it had about as much verification as the previous record for unmodified (other than its own), that is Velaro E in Spain, since I don't recall Siemens giving out any blueprints.

As for non-government observers, I don't understand the obsession, everyone who's seen the video is a non-government observer, and I don't recall anyone from MOR was there to verify the Velaro E record and that didn't bother anyone. If you think not having all the seats arranged in normal seating configuration is modification then you can consider it modified, people can come to their own judgment, a person on the train would not be able to see anything more than what you can see from videos.

One way or another its fairly clear it had 16 passenger carrying cars and not 5 car likes the TGV and built from scratch, that's what the CIT400 is for, anything below that you can believe in whatever you wish if it makes you sleep better.


----------



## 33Hz

Was it run at higher power than specification? i.e. more than 100% for a few minutes.


----------



## LHCHL

33Hz said:


> Was it run at higher power than specification? i.e. more than 100% for a few minutes.


Probably, keep in mind it was designed for 380 kph.


----------



## hmmwv

I think in the future the UN needs to establish a High Commission on HSR to verify various claims made by different countries. Maybe also one to hold automakers accountable when they announce their cars' 'Ring times.


----------



## hmmwv

mingrady said:


> when china paid for those technologies, then China has the ownership. those technologies belong to china.


I don't think any of those companies dispute that, they only complained when there is a prospect that China may export them.


----------



## LHCHL

^^
Companies like Siemens or Kawasaki didn't invented everything that exist in rail travel, they all bought it from someone else, it didn't prevent them from exporting their trains (which are technically all based on British rail technology).

Of course they don't want to see a new competitor, one that's very competitive to say the least, but that's something they should have thought of before selling the technology, its a bit late for that now. Only thing you can say is they grossly underestimated Chinese trainmakers.


----------



## Substructure

> Was it run at higher power than specification? i.e. more than 100% for a few minutes.





LHCHL said:


> Probably, keep in mind it was designed for 380 kph.


Here wo go then, if it was run at a higher power then designed, then it was modified for speed. The current land speed record for a modified stock train is 575kph set by the TGV. The current record for a perfectly stock, unmodified train is 404kph, set by the Velaro.

So, the CRH380 is a great accomplishment but did not set a record.
Furthermore, there are some inconsistencies in the original Chinese article, available here :
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-09/28/c_13533337.htm

Extract :


> China sets its first world speed record on June 24, 2008. Then, the Beijing-Tianjin CRH3 high-speed train hit a top speed of 394.3 kilometers an hour.


The Velaro set its 404kph record in 2006 and the TGV achieved 575kph in 2007. How was going at 394kph in 2008 a record in anyway ?

I honestly think this whole fuss is misleading, and that the titles claiming "China leading world in high-speed railways" is an unfounded fuel for patriotism.


----------



## LHCHL

^^
-The Velaro was designed for 300 kph, running at 404 kph also required running past 100%. And I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "modified", a 2 locomotive + 3 car TGV with specially built bogies is a little different from running a 16 car train pulled out of commercial service to run beyond its operational power level, and that applies to the Velaro as well.

-As for the CRH3 record, the article was inaccurate, it was a Chinese record, not a world record, its not hard to find the error with a simple search.

Of course all speed records have patriotism element in them, otherwise you won't be here trying hard to convince yourself it didn't happen. If telling yourself it was modified make you sleep better then I guess nobody can stop you, just don't beat yourself up next year when CT400 breaks TGV record as well. 

As for HSR leadership, that goes beyond trains, and China do have the world's longest and fastest HSR system in commercial service, whether or not that translates into leadership is I guess up to your favorate interpretation.


----------



## foxmulder

Substructure said:


> Here wo go then, if it was run at a higher power then designed, then it was modified for speed. The current land speed record for a modified stock train is 575kph set by the TGV. The current record for a perfectly stock, unmodified train is 404kph, set by the Velaro.
> 
> So, the CRH380 is a great accomplishment but did not set a record.
> Furthermore, there are some inconsistencies in the original Chinese article, available here :
> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-09/28/c_13533337.htm
> 
> Extract :
> 
> The Velaro set its 404kph record in 2006 and the TGV achieved 575kph in 2007. How was going at 394kph in 2008 a record in anyway ?
> 
> I honestly think this whole fuss is misleading, and that the titles claiming "China leading world in high-speed railways" is an unfounded fuel for patriotism.



This is just lame... For operational trains, record is held by CRH380A by a huge margin. Accept the fact. 

Also, one can easily say China is leading high-speed railways. Look at the facts. If China is not leading who is? They have the technology, infrastructure and most importantly will to build. The size and the speed is cream on top.


----------



## makita09

Substructure said:


> Here wo go then, if it was run at a higher power then designed, then it was modified for speed. The current land speed record for a modified stock train is 575kph set by the TGV. The current record for a perfectly stock, unmodified train is 404kph, set by the Velaro.
> 
> So, the CRH380 is a great accomplishment but did not set a record.


Further to what LHCHL said, the TGV had extra large wheels, the trailers had specially designed bogies with motors in them for testing distributed traction, and the power supply was increased in voltage. Quite serious modifications.

The Chinese took a 16 car set, which has 8 unpowered cars, and replaced 2 of them with 2 standard powered cars instead. It is not exactly true to say this is a 'modified' trainset, when at any point the MOR could reconstitute the train like this for actual operations.

Unfortunately semantics will mean that it is hard to 100% agree unless the test conditions are set by a 3rd party and everyone adheres to it. Nonetheless Guiness were present at the TGV test, not sure about the Velaro or CRH380, we shall find out in time.

But who cares? It is quite obvious that the CRH380 is a faster production train than the Velaro, why wouldn't it be? It s got loads more power and is designed to go faster. I hope you don't keep having sleepless nights worrying over this.


----------



## makita09

LHCHL said:


> ^^
> Companies like Siemens or Kawasaki didn't invented everything that exist in rail travel, they all bought it from someone else, it didn't prevent them from exporting their trains (which are technically all based on British rail technology).


Siemens were pioneers in the electrically powered locomotives in the late 19th century, and have been leaders in the market ever since. They were at the forefront of electric motor technology since such items became industrially important. There were no British companies at the time that were significantly advanced ahead of Siemens.

Kawasaki and Siemens have been instrumental in the evolution of rail travel over the last 100 years. To say anything else is to not know history. Many companies have all had their influence, but to say such innovative companies such as Siemens and Kawasaki 'bought' all of their techonology is absurd. Its not a criticism I would level at them, many other companies yes, but not them.


----------



## Substructure

makita09 said:


> It is quite obvious that the CRH380 is a faster production train than the Velaro, why wouldn't it be? It s got loads more power and is designed to go faster. I hope you don't keep having sleepless nights worrying over this.


I'm fine with this, the CRH380 is probably the fastest operating stock train and I would actually like to see it here in Europe. I was just confused with this flow of "world record"..

Thanks for your answers.


----------



## maldini

hmmwv said:


> I don't think any of those companies dispute that, they only complained when there is a prospect that China may export them.


China made some technologies and added them to the newest highspeed trains.
China now exports indigenous technology.


----------



## 33Hz

I'd still like to get an answer to the power question. How much was it running above spec?


----------



## 33Hz

Siemens showed the first electric train as we know it in 1879 and even built electric trams in China in 1899, so I don't think we can accuse them of stealing anything.

There were railways in Germany in the middle ages. What the Brits did was put steam locomotives on iron rails.


----------



## LHCHL

^^
That's not the point, Siemens and Kawasaki can't both have invented everything, whatever one of them invented, the other purchased. Nobody's accusing Siemens of stealing technology, however they are exporting technology that in-cooperated what they purchased, just like everyone else. It does not make what Siemens accomplished themselves any less credible, it just means that they'll be hypocrites for talking down someone else for doing the same thing.


----------



## hmmwv

I think the original CRH3's 394kph Chinese record is done with rated power, it got to that speed at a long downhill section of the line.


----------



## Restless

Or they might find that they need the extra power and change them all to 10 powered cars instead of 8 lol



makita09 said:


> Further to what LHCHL said, the TGV had extra large wheels, the trailers had specially designed bogies with motors in them for testing distributed traction, and the power supply was increased in voltage. Quite serious modifications.
> 
> The Chinese took a 16 car set, which has 8 unpowered cars, and replaced 2 of them with 2 standard powered cars instead. It is not exactly true to say this is a 'modified' trainset, when at any point the MOR could reconstitute the train like this for actual operations.
> 
> Unfortunately semantics will mean that it is hard to 100% agree unless the test conditions are set by a 3rd party and everyone adheres to it. Nonetheless Guiness were present at the TGV test, not sure about the Velaro or CRH380, we shall find out in time.
> 
> But who cares? It is quite obvious that the CRH380 is a faster production train than the Velaro, why wouldn't it be? It s got loads more power and is designed to go faster. I hope you don't keep having sleepless nights worrying over this.


----------



## greenlion

ten innovations of CRH380A

http://www.cnr.cn/gundong/201012/t20101210_507444973.html


----------



## greenlion

Fan Railer said:


> AHH so much to keep track of...... so the CRH380B/BL order remains unchanged right? and the new CRH380C is an additional tack on order??
> and also wondering if you have a url link to source the statement... not that i don't believe you, just to confirm and make it look more valid on wikipedia... you know how the editors are on there....


It's from Official PTT of CNR in the Modern Railway 2010 exhibition, it says CNR Changchun is manufacturing to series of CRH380,CRH380B/BL and CRH380C, but I think we still need further confirm from the MOR


----------



## greenlion

greenlion said:


> It's from Official PTT of CNR in the Modern Railway 2010 exhibition, it says CNR Changchun is manufacturing to series of CRH380,CRH380B/BL and CRH380C, but I think we still need further confirm from the MOR


the first set of CRH380C sets to roll off line by March/April 2011.


----------



## sasalove

京沪高铁 Beijing Shanghai High Speed Rail
CCTV Documentary


----------



## makita09

LHCHL said:


> ^^
> That's not the point, Siemens and Kawasaki can't both have invented everything, whatever one of them invented, the other purchased. Nobody's accusing Siemens of stealing technology, however they are exporting technology that in-cooperated what they purchased, just like everyone else. It does not make what Siemens accomplished themselves any less credible, it just means that they'll be hypocrites for talking down someone else for doing the same thing.


Of course, because it is impossible for another company's research team to develop something in parallel to another company, you know, like how Pepsi obviously bought their formula from Coca-Cola. :nuts:

Anyway, nobody said that Siemens and Kawasaki both invented everything. But you in effect said that everyone apart from the British stole or bought everything. Obviously you must think in grand generalisations otherwise you wouldn't have posted one and then inferred another from my comment which contained nothing of the sort.

Being a Brit myself I would love to claim everything for my country. But I won't.


----------



## LHCHL

makita09 said:


> Of course, because it is impossible for another company's research team to develop something in parallel to another company, you know, like how Pepsi obviously bought their formula from Coca-Cola. :nuts:


If you are trying to argue that both Siemens and Kawasaki invented every single nuts a bolts in their trains, then you better have some concrete evidence to show for it, because its quite a statement to claim two companies both invented everything since, and including the wheel, simultaneously.hno:


----------



## greenlion

China release CRH380A stamp


----------



## puxieshi

Hi HyperMiler
it seem the CRH3 use the dual layers Shell Notice the centr of the picture


----------



## makita09

LHCHL said:


> If you are trying to argue that both Siemens and Kawasaki invented every single nuts a bolts in their trains, then you better have some concrete evidence to show for it, because its quite a statement to claim two companies both invented everything since, and including the wheel, simultaneously.hno:


LOL! No I am not trying to argue that.

OK, lets take this sloooooooowly.....

You are trying to argue that if a company was not first to invent something then it bought or stole the technology. I am pointing out that there is another possibility (NOTE POSSIBILITY - this does not mean that I am suggesting that it applies ubiquitously to every situation!!!) and the possibility is;

Another company researches and develops its own variant.

I won't be explaining myself for a fourth time. If you decide to put all sorts of words in my mouth again that I didn't say or imply or give any cause to, I'll just assume its time for your medication and that your carer will be along in a minute.


----------



## LHCHL

^^
Then I'm glad we agree that Siemens and Kawasaki has been exporting products containing purchased technologies and has no bases for complaining otherwise, it was not necessary to state the obvious that they are capable of inventing/re-inventing new ones as well and I will just take it as how you deal with your own problems , I'm here for the news so please don't waste more of my time replying to my posts unless you have something related to what I said.


----------



## UD2

^^

was watching that documentary that was posted. couple of points. 

The concrete track beds are maintained to the degree that their flat surface have a variance of 0.5mm.

The overhead cables, for the entire 1400km length is exactly 5.3m above track level and have a variance 1mm. 

talk about quality.


----------



## makita09

LHCHL said:


> ^^
> Then I'm glad we agree that Siemens and Kawasaki has been exporting products containing purchased technologies and has no bases for complaining otherwise, it was not necessary to state the obvious that they are capable of inventing/re-inventing new ones as well and I will just take it as how you deal with your own problems , I'm here for the news so please don't waste more of my time replying to my posts unless you have something related to what I said.


!? No I don't agree - again you've made up in your head something I didn't say. What is wrong with your brain? Stop wasting your own time and learn to read.


----------



## LHCHL

^^


makita09 said:


> NOTE POSSIBILITY - this does not mean that I am suggesting that it applies ubiquitously to every situation!!!


What did I tell you, don't waste my time unless you have something worthwhile to add. It seem you have trouble with the concept of logic, if you can't understand or remember what you wrote yourself then you need to see a doctor and there's nothing I can do to help you, I work in the industry and I can assure you Siemens did not "reinvent" everything Kawasaki invented and vise versa, there's a concept called acquisition, familiarize yourself with it.


----------



## makita09

You are severely testing my patience.

I have not said or alluded to Siemens reinventing everything Kawasaki did, I have not said or alluded to Kawasaki reinventing everything Siemens did, I have not said or alluded to either manufacturer reinventing everything. You persist in implying that I have said this and wondering why I continue to correct you - you are in effect misrepresenting me on a public forum and I will correct you if you continue to do so.

It is not I who has the trouble with the concept of logic.



LHCHL said:


> ^^
> Companies like *Siemens or Kawasaki didn't invented everything that exist in rail travel, they all bought it from someone else, it didn't prevent them from exporting their trains (which are technically all based on British rail technology)*.
> 
> Of course they don't want to see a new competitor, one that's very competitive to say the least, but that's something they should have thought of before selling the technology, its a bit late for that now. Only thing you can say is they grossly underestimated Chinese trainmakers.





makita09 said:


> Siemens were pioneers in the electrically powered locomotives in the late 19th century, and have been leaders in the market ever since. They were at the forefront of electric motor technology since such items became industrially important. There were no British companies at the time that were significantly advanced ahead of Siemens.
> 
> Kawasaki and Siemens have been instrumental in the evolution of rail travel over the last 100 years. To say anything else is to not know history. Many companies have all had their influence, but *to say such innovative companies such as Siemens and Kawasaki 'bought' all of their techonology is absurd*. Its not a criticism I would level at them, many other companies yes, but not them.





33Hz said:


> Siemens showed the first electric train as we know it in 1879 and even built electric trams in China in 1899, so I don't think we can accuse them of stealing anything.
> 
> There were railways in Germany in the middle ages. What the Brits did was put steam locomotives on iron rails.





LHCHL said:


> ^^
> That's not the point, *Siemens and Kawasaki can't both have invented everything, whatever one of them invented, the other purchased.* Nobody's accusing Siemens of stealing technology, however they are exporting technology that in-cooperated what they purchased, just like everyone else. It does not make what Siemens accomplished themselves any less credible, it just means that they'll be hypocrites for talking down someone else for doing the same thing.





makita09 said:


> Of course, because it is impossible for another company's research team to develop something in parallel to another company, you know, like how Pepsi obviously bought their formula from Coca-Cola. :nuts:
> 
> Anyway, *nobody said that Siemens and Kawasaki both invented everything*. But you in effect said that everyone apart from the British stole or bought everything. Obviously you must think in grand generalisations otherwise you wouldn't have posted one and then inferred another from my comment which contained nothing of the sort.
> 
> Being a Brit myself I would love to claim everything for my country. But I won't.





LHCHL said:


> *If you are trying to argue that both Siemens and Kawasaki invented every single nuts a bolts in their trains*, then you better have some concrete evidence to show for it, because its quite a statement to claim two companies both invented everything since, and including the wheel, simultaneously.hno:


If you cannot see that it is you that struggles with logic, and/or being able to read properly that is your own problem, and the main cause of you wasting your time. If you post anything else that misrepresents what I have said I will yet again refute it, if you don't want your time wasted either be very careful about what it is you are saying or stay quiet.


----------



## LHCHL

^^
Don't be so sensitive, I never implied Siemens purchased EVERYTHING, perhaps I was too general in my wording and confused you, I will apologize for that, however I've already stated that they "IN-COOPERATED" what they purchased, and anyone who has any respect for their management would agree on that. So as I said, I'm glad we agree on that point, unless you want to go back and fourth and keep on refute yourself there's nothing more you can add, I got work to do ahead of me and your patience is your own to test.


----------



## greenlion

Official Order confirmation:

CSR Changchun, CRH380B 40sets, CRH380BL 45 sets, CRH380CL 25 sets.

BST's Zifero 380 is now CRH380D


----------



## Fan Railer

greenlion said:


> Official Order confirmation:
> 
> CSR Changchun, CRH380B 40sets, CRH380BL 45 sets, CRH380CL 25 sets.
> 
> BST's Zifero 380 is now CRH380D


and i can leave it to you to update the wiki with this information yes?
EDIT: checked and confirmed, thankyou


----------



## ChrisD20

*China Economy*

According to a new poll conducted by Allstate and the National Journal most Americans believe that the U.S. economy has already been surpassed by China's economy. Only 20% of Americans polled believe that the United States has the strongest economy in the world, while nearly half say this distinction lies with China.

Despite this pessimistic view, one-third of Americans (34%) believe the United States will have the world's strongest economy 20 years from now, roughly in line with those who hold similar expectations of China's economy (37%). Respondents cited America's strengths in its higher education system (74%), science and research (66%), workforce (56%) and corporate leaders (57%).

For more information visit Allstate Insurance Digital Newsroom


----------



## Matchut

delete


----------



## makita09

Was hoping for news on Chinese trainsets....silly me.


----------



## hmmwv

So since Zifero is now CRH380D, what has become CRH380C? Initially we all thought Zifero is C.


----------



## foxmulder

CRH380C is now an upgraded 380B. It still looks like Velaro but has a new nose design.


----------



## hmmwv

foxmulder said:


> CRH380C is now an upgraded 380B. It still looks like Velaro but has a new nose design.


You mean that model showed during 7th HSR Congress? I think I now remember what it looks like.


----------



## Fan Railer

hmmwv said:


> You mean that model showed during 7th HSR Congress? I think I now remember what it looks like.


Yes, that's the one...... they converted 25 of the BL units into the CL units. It will be nice to see the CL units since they will be relatively rare compared to the rest of the variants (A, AL, B, BL, D, DL). 25 CL units versus 375 of the other units combined....


----------



## greenlion

*Cheers the CSR EMU Family!*
Left to right: CIT380A(CRH2-150C in CRH380A skin), CRH2A Stage 2, CRH2C Stage 1









*CRH2A Stage Two!*

20 sets ordered, Serials Number 151A-170A,

CRH2-151A - 157A had been rolled off

fomation can be found on Wikipedia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH2#CRH2A_2

Pics: Thanks to railwayfans poster Baozi

































































*Coach No.3: ZYE*









































*Coach No.5:ZEC*

























*ZY Coach*









*ZE Coach*









*Driver car*


----------



## Geography

Great pictures, thanks! Why doesn't the driver's seat have a seatbelt? If they slam on the emergency brake, the driver is going to go through the windshield. That makes the driver hesitate about about using the e-brake, a delay that is critical.


----------



## foxmulder

Emergency brake may function automatically since human reaction is too slow at 350+km/h anyway. 

Great pictures, by the way.


----------



## Ariel74

in_China said:


> The CRH380BL-6402, that got a 487km/h on 9th of January 2011 was a modified train, where 4 trailer cars were left out and traction power raised.
> It survived the high-speed run without damages on component - in contrary to the catinary, which had to be maintained for three days after the run.
> 
> The CRH380AL, which has done his 486km/h run on 3rd of January 2011, was - according to rumors and persons, who have seen the train on CARS testring in Beijing - a 14-car-train (instead of 16 cars in normal trainset). Train shall be on it's way to museum, suffering serious damages on motors and boogies (boogie on CHR380A is a modified version of CRH2-boogie with additional dampers and anti-roll-bar).
> 
> I would be pleased if somebody could verify the 14-car-thesis on pictures of record train.


Didn't CRH380AL do the speed test in December, 2010? And where did you get these rumors and "persons"? On ourail.com, where some of the employees of the South Locomotive are active, no such rumor was ever mentioned. And according to all insider information available there, the configuration of the CRH380al bested on Dec 3, 2010 was 14M2T. In other words, a total of 16 cars.


----------



## foxmulder

in_China said:


> boogie on CHR380A is a modified version of CRH2-boogie with additional dampers and anti-roll-bar


Can you share the source?


----------



## Fan Railer

More videos of the CRH380BL in service:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjM2NzA3OTg4.html
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjM2NzEzMjMy.html
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjM2NzIzMzI0.html


----------



## binhai

foxmulder said:


> Can you share the source?


sounds like trolling imo


----------



## greenlion

in_China said:


> The CRH380BL-6402, that got a 487km/h on 9th of January 2011 was a modified train, where 4 trailer cars were left out and traction power raised.
> It survived the high-speed run without damages on component - in contrary to the catinary, which had to be maintained for three days after the run.
> 
> The CRH380AL, which has done his 486km/h run on 3rd of January 2011, was - according to rumors and persons, who have seen the train on CARS testring in Beijing - a 14-car-train (instead of 16 cars in normal trainset). Train shall be on it's way to museum, suffering serious damages on motors and boogies (boogie on CHR380A is a modified version of CRH2-boogie with additional dampers and anti-roll-bar).
> 
> I would be pleased if somebody could verify the 14-car-thesis on pictures of record train.


THE CRH380AL's 486.1 km/h test was live broadcast to the whole world in December and the set has 16 cars.


----------



## UD2

greenlion said:


> THE CRH380AL's 486.1 km/h test was live broadcast to the whole world in December and the set has 16 cars.


As to the dmgs incurred. What he said doesn't seem unreasonable. 

The CRH380AL motor and bogies are based on a designs that were to be used at 200km/h. No sources are needed for this. The CRH380AL is largely based on the technology of the CRH2. The program actually started off as an attempt to improve the CRH2's aerodynamic performance by incorporating the front-end design compoments of the CRH3.

It is even more reasonable for both train's catinary to be trashed after this use. In fact, I’d surprised if the overhead power lines didn't also need maintenance after these endeavors. 

Lastly, it will be very unlickly for China's MOR to release this information on incurred damages after all the positive publicity.

Although i highly doublt any of the trains will make their ways to any museums. Motors and bogies can all be replaced.


----------



## UD2

in_China said:


> The CRH380BL-6402, that got a 487km/h on 9th of January 2011 was a modified train, where 4 trailer cars were left out and traction power raised.
> It survived the high-speed run without damages on component - in contrary to the catinary, which had to be maintained for three days after the run.
> 
> The CRH380AL, which has done his 486km/h run on 3rd of January 2011, was - according to rumors and persons, who have seen the train on CARS testring in Beijing - a 14-car-train (instead of 16 cars in normal trainset). Train shall be on it's way to museum, suffering serious damages on motors and boogies (boogie on CHR380A is a modified version of CRH2-boogie with additional dampers and anti-roll-bar).
> 
> I would be pleased if somebody could verify the 14-car-thesis on pictures of record train.


I've confirmed that the CRH380BL's test was done with a 12-unit train configuration of 8M4T, as opposed to the regular service 8M8T configuration. The four trailers carrying battery packs for normal operations were removed from the trainset. The four trailers that were left on the train had consisted of two control cab trailers and two trailers carrying the catinary assemblies. 


However, the story on the CRH380AL was at least half incorrect. The regular service CRH380AL have a 14M2T configuration in the following pattern.

TC-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-TC

Because the trailer cars on the CRH380AL are also the control cars, it is impossible for them to be removed. Which means that two motor cars would have to be removed inorder for the CRH380AL to operat in a 14-unit configuration. This seems unlikely and counterproductive.


----------



## Ariel74

UD2 said:


> I've confirmed that the CRH380BL's test was done with a 12-unit train configuration of 8M4T, as opposed to the regular service 8M8T configuration. The four trailers carrying battery packs for normal operations were removed from the trainset. The four trailers that were left on the train had consisted of two control cab trailers and two trailers carrying the catinary assemblies.
> 
> 
> However, the story on the CRH380AL was at least half incorrect. The regular service CRH380AL have a 14M2T configuration in the following pattern.
> 
> TC-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-TC
> 
> Because the trailer cars on the CRH380AL are also the control cars, it is impossible for them to be removed. Which means that two motor cars would have to be removed inorder for the CRH380AL to operat in a 14-unit configuration. This seems unlikely and counterproductive.


True. With 14 cars they would have had a smaller Motor-Trailer ratio. I am curious if he comes back providing more information on that.

On the other hand, your knowledge of the CRH380al seems very superficial. Sure the CRH2 was the starting point for the design work for CRH380a(l), but almost none of the key components in the latter was taken over from the former. In particular, the motor and bogies in crh380a(l) are all redesigned. 

Perhaps you ought to try visiting some technical rail forums before making silly and facile comments on technical matters.

Of course the new motor and bogie in crh380a(l) does not mean what in_China claims to have heard cannot be true. So let's see if he can provide some sources.


----------



## fragel

Ariel74 said:


> Perhaps you ought to try visiting some technical rail forums before making silly and facile comments on technical matters.


this is uncalled for. even on those forums such debates can be seen on a daily basis.
I don't agree with him on 380A comments, but there is no reason to lose cool.


----------



## Ariel74

fragel said:


> this is uncalled for. even on those forums such debates can be seen on a daily basis.
> I don't agree with him on 380A comments, but there is no reason to *lose cool*.


Is that autological?


----------



## makita09

UD2 said:


> It is even more reasonable for both train's catinary to be trashed after this use. In fact, I’d surprised if the overhead power lines didn't also need maintenance after these endeavors.


The overhead power lines _are_ the catenary (well, specifically the structures that hold up the cable). I am not aware that the word has been used to describe the electrical collection system on the top of the vehicle. I wouldn't expect the train's pantograph to have been damaged significantly - they are much more solid than the catenary. If they were damaged they can be replaced quite quickly. The catenary is often damaged by these tests as they are tension-critical, the tension must be set to ensure the correct amount of vibration in the cables as the vehicle passes. Of course outside the design specifications it may not have been possible to raise and balance the tension high enough to stop any vibration-related damage. The cable could also have just been shredded by the friction.


----------



## UD2

Ariel74 said:


> True. With 14 cars they would have had a smaller Motor-Trailer ratio. I am curious if he comes back providing more information on that.
> 
> On the other hand, your knowledge of the CRH380al seems very superficial. Sure the CRH2 was the starting point for the design work for CRH380a(l), but almost none of the key components in the latter was taken over from the former. In particular, the motor and bogies in crh380a(l) are all redesigned.
> 
> Perhaps you ought to try visiting some technical rail forums before making silly and facile comments on technical matters.
> 
> Of course the new motor and bogie in crh380a(l) does not mean what in_China claims to have heard cannot be true. So let's see if he can provide some sources.



I said based on a design. didn't I? never did i ever mention that the CRH380A shared any components with the CRH2.


----------



## UD2

makita09 said:


> The overhead power lines _are_ the catenary (well, specifically the structures that hold up the cable). I am not aware that the word has been used to describe the electrical collection system on the top of the vehicle. I wouldn't expect the train's pantograph to have been damaged significantly - they are much more solid than the catenary. If they were damaged they can be replaced quite quickly. The catenary is often damaged by these tests as they are tension-critical, the tension must be set to ensure the correct amount of vibration in the cables as the vehicle passes. Of course outside the design specifications it may not have been possible to raise and balance the tension high enough to stop any vibration-related damage. The cable could also have just been shredded by the friction.


you're very correct. I was tired and sleepy and got it all confused.


----------



## Ariel74

UD2 said:


> I said based on a design. didn't I? never did i ever mention that the CRH380A shared any components with the CRH2.


You said that "CRH380AL is largely based on the technology of the CRH2". That statement is literally wrong. 

But more importantly, understood in the loose sense of "based on" - that is, in the sense in which your statement is true - it does not support the way you are using it to make plausible in_China's rumor that crh380al was damaged badly.

In the loose sense of "based on", the ICE3 is based on the technology of ICE1 (or substitute any current generation Shinkansen, and first generation Shinkansen, respectively). But that fact has no tendency whatsoever to show that, because ICE1 is designed to run at 200km/h, ICE3 would likely be damaged badly at a speed say near 400km/h.

For this reason, the only reasonable way to understand your statement - i.e., the only way to make you out to be saying something relevant - is to understand your use of "based on" in a VERY strong sense, in which case your statement is plainly wrong.

Hence the advice for you to spend more time on the technical details. ourail.com is a good place to start.


----------



## cbz

Ariel74 said:


> Hence the advice for you to spend more time on the technical details. ourail.com is a good place to start.



Need "invitation code" to register, do you have one?


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## foxmulder

I asked for the source because probably his source is wiki. In Wikipedia, they cite an article as the source for boogie design on 380A is based on CRH2. When you go and check the source, there is nothing  They just compare 380A to CRH2 to show how much development have been done in high speed rail tech. As fas as I know boogie on 380A is completely different than that of CRH2.


----------



## greenlion

foxmulder said:


> I asked for the source because probably his source is wiki. In Wikipedia, they site an article as the source for boogie design on 380A is based on CRH2. When you go and check the source, there is nothing  They just compare 380A to CRH2 to show how much development have been done in high speed rail tech. As fas as I know boogie on 380A is completely different than that of CRH2.


the CRH380A's bogie are based and redesigned from the *CRH2C Stage two*'s bogie, the SWMB-400/SWTB-400 is totally developed by China and it's totally different with the DT206/TR7004B used in *CRH2A*, which is developed by Japanese.

the CRH380A article on wikipedia is written by me 

SW means "CSR Sifang Works"

1.the origin types of CRH2A and the initial batch of trainsets use DT206/TR7004B bogie which is the same with E2-1000, designed and manufacturered by Hitachi
2. in cooperation with Kawasaki, CSR developed SW-220 bogie, to be use in top speed of 160 km/h trainsets.
3. CSR then developed SWMB-250/SWTB-250 bogie to be equiped on later delivered Chinese made CRH2A, CRH2B and CRH2E
4. CSR then developed SWMB-300/SWTB-300 on CRH2C Stage one, SWMB-350/SWTB-350 on CRH2C Stage two.
5. the newest version of his series bogie is the SWMB-400/SWTB-400, to be used on CRH380A and CIT400 and probablly later CIT 500 and CRH420

so basically, the bogie is a Chinese design and developed from CRH2C stage two.

*everyone must remember, CRH2C is not a Japanese design in terms of the bogie.*

the paragraph about the CRH380A bogie on wikipedia:



> Safe and reliable high-speed bogie,equiped with SWMB-400/SWTB-400 non-boster bogies, The bogie is redesigned from SWMB-350/SWTB-350 bogie used by CRH2C, the critical instability speed is 550 km/h. The new train's derail coefficient is 0.34 at speed of 386.3 km/h while the maximun derail coefficient of CRH2A is 0.73.[8]


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## Ariel74

cbz said:


> Need "invitation code" to register, do you have one?


I was not aware of that. And no, unfortunately, I do not have an "invitation code".


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## foxmulder

greenlion said:


> the CRH380A's bogie are based and redesigned from the *CRH2C Stage two*'s bogie, the SWMB-400/SWTB-400 is totally developed by China and it's totally different with the DT206/TR7004B used in *CRH2A*, which is developed by Japanese.
> 
> the CRH380A article on wikipedia is written by me
> 
> SW means "CSR Sifang Works"
> 
> 1.the origin types of CRH2A and the initial batch of trainsets use DT206/TR7004B bogie which is the same with E2-1000, designed and manufacturered by Hitachi
> 2. in cooperation with Kawasaki, CSR developed SW-220 bogie, to be use in top speed of 160 km/h trainsets.
> 3. CSR then developed SWMB-250/SWTB-250 bogie to be equiped on later delivered Chinese made CRH2A, CRH2B and CRH2E
> 4. CSR then developed SWMB-300/SWTB-300 on CRH2C Stage one, SWMB-350/SWTB-350 on CRH2C Stage two.
> 5. the newest version of his series bogie is the SWMB-400/SWTB-400, to be used on CRH380A and CIT400 and probablly later CIT 500 and CRH420
> 
> so basically, the bogie is a Chinese design and developed from CRH2C stage two.
> 
> *everyone must remember, CRH2C is not a Japanese design in terms of the bogie.*
> 
> the paragraph about the CRH380A bogie on wikipedia:


Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## Fan Railer

Finally, someone shot a video of the CRH380BL trainset departing at full acceleration from a station in revenue service. The propulsion is sweet XD Enjoy


----------



## Fan Railer

Finally, this time a video of the CRH380BL set that set the new record of 487.3 km/h:




Enjoy :cheers:


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## foxmulder

Cool video, thanks..


----------



## hmmwv

Fan Railer said:


> Finally, this time a video of the CRH380BL set that set the new record of 487.3 km/h:
> Enjoy :cheers:


Thanks for the video!

Before the bashing starts, let's just put it out there that the 487.3 was not a world record of anything, it's a Chinese rail speed record of any train (modified and unmodified). Carry on.


----------



## Nozumi 300

Any news/word/updates on the CRH380D (it is 'D' for the Zefiro right?)


----------



## Fan Railer

Nozumi 300 said:


> Any news/word/updates on the CRH380D (it is 'D' for the Zefiro right?)


nothing yet... you'll have to wait till late 2011 or early 2012, when those sets actually start hitting the rails.


----------



## Fan Railer

Same station as the previous CRH380BL shot, but this time with better sound and in the daytime =)


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## cmoonflyer

*A interesting pic found ...*


----------



## greenlion

CSR's CIT400 trainset rolled off line on February 22


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## foxmulder

So this is the 420km/h one right?

Any pictures????


----------



## greenlion

CIT400A, the sixth comprehensive test trainset of CRH, aim speed is 500km/h, will be used as 380km/h track inspection train after the speed test in March.
CIT400B (CNR) and CIT500 (CSR) are coming soon!










CIT001 (CRH5-000) "Doctor Yellow", 250km/h comprehensive test train

















CRH2-010A "Doctor White", 250 km/h comprehensive test train









CRH2-061C and CRH2-068C, 350km/h track inspection train









CIT380A （formerly known as CRH2-150C or CRH380A test train）, 350km/h comprehensive test train


----------



## Fan Railer

Any tech specs on the CIT400A?

By the way, a quick video of a CRH380BL set passing at high speeds.


----------



## vincent

CIT400A has aim speed of 500km/h? is that the top physical test speed? or top regular operational speed?

is CIT400A the train that will try to break the 574km/h world record? some chinese officials said late last year that a heavily modified train will try to break the 574km/h. Hope this is the one.


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## greenlion

vincent said:


> CIT400A has aim speed of 500km/h? is that the top physical test speed? or top regular operational speed?
> 
> is CIT400A the train that will try to break the 574km/h world record? some chinese officials said late last year that a heavily modified train will try to break the 574km/h. Hope this is the one.


500 km/h is the aim test top speed, the train will be operate at 380 km/h in service

CIT500 will be the train to break record

CIT400A


----------



## joseph1951

vincent said:


> CIT400A has aim speed of 500km/h? is that the top physical test speed? or top regular operational speed?
> 
> is CIT400A the train that will try to break the 574km/h world record? some chinese officials said late last year that a heavily modified train will try to break the 574km/h. Hope this is the one.


Vincent,
I don't think the Chinese will try to break the French world record straight away. 

First they will have to gather sufficient data to see how the CIT 400 behave at around 500 km/h. Then they will modify the set accordingly then they will try to reach higher and higher speed, all of them above 500 km/h. It is believed that the rail /wheel contact is at its limits between 630 -700 km/h.

For the catenary the limit (at least the limit of the French catenary used for the world record) is around 620 km/h. 

At the above speeds aereodynamic behaviour plays an extremely important role..


I am looking forward to see these experiments.


----------



## foxmulder

greenlion said:


> 500 km/h is the aim test top speed, the train will be operate at 380 km/h in service
> 
> CIT500 will be the train to break record
> 
> CIT400A


Thanks a lot for the pictures...


----------



## Gadiri

*RailHD production: age of high-speed railway I 高铁时代 I *



> Train: Various CRH types.
> Location: SuZhou, East China
> Credit: [luckydog] from railHD.com / rail.eastspeed.com.
> 中国的高铁时代，铁路高清网[luckydog]拍摄。


----------



## vincent

greenlion said:


> 500 km/h is the aim test top speed, the train will be operate at 380 km/h in service
> 
> CIT500 will be the train to break record
> 
> CIT400A


i heard that the world record will be broken using the Shanghai-Beijing track. So i guess that means they will use CIT500 to do it before mid June? if so, i guess CIT500 will be rolling out within couple months.


----------



## SoroushPersepolisi

im amazed by chinas developements, absolutely amazing, bravo

hopefully iran learns somethings about "building quickly" from china lol


----------



## greenlion

vincent said:


> i heard that the world record will be broken using the Shanghai-Beijing track. So i guess that means they will use CIT500 to do it before mid June? if so, i guess CIT500 will be rolling out within couple months.


Rumor says that CNR's CIT400B will be delivered in a couple of days, and CSR's CIT500 is now under manufacture, and the 500km/h test and the 600km/h test are expected to be lauched before mid 2011

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_railways_CIT_trains


----------



## greenlion

CIT400A! first trainset (CRH400A001)delivered at February 26, 2011! pictures from rednet


----------



## fragel

^^sigh, the original photographer specifically emphasized in his ourail.com thread: cross-posting his pics is prohibited. He's so pissed off by this rednet.cn cross-post thread that he might not consider releasing any CIT500 pics once they are available. shame.


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## greenlion

fragel said:


> ^^sigh, the original photographer specifically emphasized in his ourail.com thread: cross-posting his pics is prohibited. He's so pissed off by this rednet.cn cross-post thread that he might not consider releasing any CIT500 pics once they are available. shame.


yes, the pics now appears in most Chinese railway forums that's why I waited for a couple of days to post them on skyscrapercity.

But I think we could still expect the author to publish CIT500 pictures once the trainset ia avaliable.


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## fragel

^^yeah I know. And rednet.cn is not the first. I was pretty sure some one was bound to cross-post them though, some people just can't help doing it, even when OP told them not to. 

I don't have a high enough level on the forum that he would post future pictures, so I guess I won't be able to see his pictures right after he posts them again.


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## Nozumi 300

Ugh, can't they change the font to at least to something to match the modernity of the train? Maybe something like Han Wang ZonYi or Meiryo UI?


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## foxmulder

Great pictures!!!

I dont understand the photographer.. why is he putting pictures then? You label them and after that the point of internet forums is sharing... If he doesnt want people to see them then yeah he shouldn't have put them online.


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## hmmwv

Are CIT trains suppose to be used to break any records? I thought they are purely track inspection vehicles, so far only regular passenger trainsets are used to break records.


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## greenlion

foxmulder said:


> Great pictures!!!
> 
> I dont understand the photographer.. why is he putting pictures then? You label them and after that the point of internet forums is sharing... If he doesnt want people to see them then yeah he shouldn't have put them online.


I guess the photographer is a railway employee, the CRH400A is still a top secret of the MOR, if to many people see the pictures before the official media reported it's rolled-off line, that will bring the troublesome to the photographer and people who help him to take the pictures


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## AlexNL

I don't really like that train to be honest, doesn't look right to me. Anyway, if they're going to attempt to break the world speed record (set by Alstom in 2007) I wish them luck. 

And then of course it's up to Alstom to show who's king in high speed rail... Alstom!


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## greenlion

OK News published by people.com

http://qd.people.com.cn/GB/190551/14033303.html










Official name of the trainset is CRH400A, the project starts from June 2010, after 8 monthes of work the trainset rolled-off line on February 22, 2011, and will start test run at Jinghu railway on March 3


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## z0rg

@greenlion, what do we know about those 500km/h and 600km/h trainset projects? Any release and test schedule? For what lines are they supposed to be planned?

Thank you very much far all your contributions in these threads btw :cheers:


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## Ariel74

greenlion said:


> OK News published by people.com
> 
> http://qd.people.com.cn/GB/190551/14033303.html
> 
> 
> Official name of the trainset is CRH400A, the project starts from June 2010, after 8 monthes of work the trainset rolled-off line on February 22, 2011, and will start test run at Jinghu railway on March 3



Do you happen to know if "CIT400" and "CRH400A" are different designations of the same train? The nomenclature of the MOR can be really confusing sometimes. 

thanks for the clarification.


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## greenlion

Ariel74 said:


> Do you happen to know if "CIT400" and "CRH400A" are different designations of the same train? The nomenclature of the MOR can be really confusing sometimes.
> 
> thanks for the clarification.


I think the chinese name of the train, 综合检测车 - comprehensive inspection train, proved this trainset is exactly CIT400A.

the project was called CIT400A since the beginning of the study work, and when the train is ready, suddenly the MOR changed the designations to CRH400, so that the trainset became CRH400A-001.

my guess is that the CRH400A, who is obviously a modified version of CRH380A in terms of design, have great chances tobe a prototype of the next generation CRH trainset, if the train perfomances well in test run.


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## greenlion

z0rg said:


> @greenlion, what do we know about those 500km/h and 600km/h trainset projects? Any release and test schedule? For what lines are they supposed to be planned?
> 
> Thank you very much far all your contributions in these threads btw :cheers:


Sorry As far as I know, the CIT500 is still a top secret, but the test will be on Jinghu PDL for sure.


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## greenlion

Bombardier published technical datas of CRH1A/B/E and CRH380D/DL

CRH380D/DL
Number of cars: 8/16
Train Length: 215.3/428.1 m
Hight: 4160mm
width: 3358mm
Power installed: 10MW/20MW
Weight: 462/934
Seats configuration: 495/1013

http://www.zefiro.bombardier.com/desktop/media/files/zefiro_380_datasheet_low_res.pdf
http://www.zefiro.bombardier.com/desktop/media/files/zefiro_250_datasheet_low_res.pdf


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## greenlion

CRH-X COBRA (CRH500) concept train 

http://www.thedesignblog.org/entry/...-the-future-of-urban-transportation-in-china/

Gary Gu’s CRH-X Cobra Concept train is a design proposal for CNR Changchun Railway Vehicles Co., Ltd, Tsinghua University and Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics. The inspiration for the design comes from the shape of a cobra; hence the name, CRH-X Cobra. it is designed for operating at top Speed of 500km/h.


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## z0rg

I love that one!! Finally a decent looking trainset. Hopefully the final design will look like that.


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## fragel

greenlion said:


> Sorry As far as I know, the CIT500 is still a top secret, but *the test will be on Jinghu PDL for sure*.


according to some CSR personnel, CIT 500 project was axed. and the test to break the record is halted, if not abandoned.


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## HunanChina

A test train, CRH-380C or CRH-400B I have no idea..

thanks GUOTAIBAN


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## greenlion

HunanChina said:


> A test train, CRH-380C or CRH-400B I have no idea..


It's the prototype modle of CRH380C and CIT400B, I guess they will change the name of CIT400B to CRH400B

the real train had rolled off line and will deliver to MOR and CARS


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## greenlion

Picture from Railwayfan.net









planned to use on the 350km/h class North East China HSR's, Manufacturer by CNR Changchun, 25 16-car CRH380CL trainset and one set of CIT400B (CRH380C-ZJ1) Comprehensive Inspection Train orderded by Chinese MOR

Since March 5 2011, the Prototype model of CRH380A and CRH380C are on exibition at the Olympic Park










What a big glass


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## Fan Railer

Very Sleek...Cant wait to hear how they sound =)


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## foxmulder

I want one of these wipers on my car... beefiest one i have ever seen. 


I still prefer 380A over this one. 380D might be a looker tough.. we will see...


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## riles28

This train look's bolder and unique, this train will stand for type CRH 380D


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## UD2

riles28 said:


> This train look's bolder and unique, this train will stand for type CRH 380D


wikipedia says that the CRH380D/DL will be the Bombardier Zefiro


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## Sopomon

Beautiful machine, absouletly stunning


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## makita09

Dual yaw dampers..... :drool:


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## Zero Gravity




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## greenlion

原文链接：
第一版： CRH-X Cobra 眼镜蛇 http://www.behance.net/GaryGu/frame/856689
第二版： CRH-X Yi 易 http://www.behance.net/GaryGu/frame/879442

Gary Gu 的 CRH-X 第二版设计， CRH-X Yi

According to the feedback from the representatives of Ministry of Railways and Changchun Rail Vehicle Co., Ltd., the design of next generation high-speed train should be simpler. They appreciated the color theme of CRH-X Cobra: WHITE AND BLACK.
This is the second version of the CRH-X projects.










































































可移动式的裙盖板设计

The most difficult part is the wheel. The engineers like the simple style but according to the regulations, the vehicle should be checked in the station, especially the wheels. If the wheels are exposed the shape of the side was destroyed. So I came up with this method: using a movable cap. When running on the rails, the caps are closed and when in the station, the workers can open the cap and check the wheels and suspensions.


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## foxmulder

Sexy..  Sleek design. Hope to see the real thing soon..


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## Toronto999

Painting of the Cobra train sucks. They should paint it in the same way as all CRH trains. Overall, it looks like an improved version of 380D and not as cool as 380A. 380A is the best!


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## zergcerebrates

I actually like the paint scheme on cobra its more modern


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## Sopomon

Toronto999 said:


> Painting of the Cobra train sucks. They should paint it in the same way as all CRH trains. Overall, it looks like an improved version of 380D and not as cool as 380A. 380A is the best!


Probably going to start some kind of fanboy war saying this, but here goes anyway;

I don't really understand what's so inherently likeable about the 380A. Some people say it looks agressive, but it seems like they just decided to lengthen the CRH2's nose and slap some GO FASTER HEADLIGHTS on it to make it look more agressive? It looks really duck-like to me, and like the designers couldn't quite get the proportions right?

Oh well, subjective opinions, subjective opinions everywhere.


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## Ariel74

greenlion said:


> 原文链接：
> 第一版： CRH-X Cobra 眼镜蛇 http://www.behance.net/GaryGu/frame/856689
> 第二版： CRH-X Yi 易 http://www.behance.net/GaryGu/frame/879442
> 
> Gary Gu 的 CRH-X 第二版设计， CRH-X Yi
> 
> According to the feedback from the representatives of Ministry of Railways and Changchun Rail Vehicle Co., Ltd., the design of next generation high-speed train should be simpler. They appreciated the color theme of CRH-X Cobra: WHITE AND BLACK.
> This is the second version of the CRH-X projects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 可移动式的裙盖板设计
> 
> The most difficult part is the wheel. The engineers like the simple style but according to the regulations, the vehicle should be checked in the station, especially the wheels. If the wheels are exposed the shape of the side was destroyed. So I came up with this method: using a movable cap. When running on the rails, the caps are closed and when in the station, the workers can open the cap and check the wheels and suspensions.



Hi, are any of these designs, including Gary Wu's, going to be realized at all? Or was the competition not meant to be serious to be begin with?


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## zergcerebrates

^ The dome of the CRH380c is so much bigger


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## foxmulder

zergcerebrates said:


> ^ The dome of the CRH380c is so much bigger


Nice models.. tnx for sharing.. However, i guess, 380C model is sitting above the 380A one which may make a comparison difficult.


----------



## Fan Railer

Unusually quiet... nothing in almost a month... really no major developments or service updates?


----------



## foxmulder

Are you ok greenlion ?


----------



## TsLeng

How I wish the UK can have those snazzy colour (black face!!) schemes. Not limited to yellow faces for H&S reasons


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## in_China

It is said, that the CIT400 from CNR/TRC factory is outside now for dynamic testing... 

Design somehow like the CRH380CL, 8-car-train, 6m2-configuration.


----------



## Railfan

China AGV?


----------



## Railfan

*CRH380A to MSTS next
*


----------



## Railfan

*CIT400A Test video*


----------



## gramercy

is that a "dr yellow"?


----------



## Railfan

This is a train that will use to break world railway speed record, called CIT400A / CRH400A


----------



## Railfan

*China's self-made maglev trainset now in commercial serv *



















botton:Looks like original TR, but no, its an other copy!!! 
Notice: This photo is maby a second trainset with the same front windows as the original TR. [Or] maby it is the rear end of the shown train above. You can see the air outlets at the side, the chinese markins and the different "black" painting on the nose: 






















































































































*Travel China Shanghai 2011 Maglev Train
*


----------



## Silly_Walks

Why didn't they make their own maglev a bit more streamlined?

I always wondered why the Transrapids were less streamlined than railed HSTs or the Japanese maglev. Especially after noticing how bumpy the ride was at 431 km/h. I wouldn't have wanted to take that bumpy ride all the way from Shanghai to Beijing.


----------



## fragel

CRH380C being assembled in CNR Changchun factory
source: CCTV news


----------



## in_China

CRH380C: CRH380B-train with modified nose, HITACHI-component for traction and on-board power supply.


----------



## [email protected]

Railfan said:


> *China's self-made maglev trainset now in commercial serv *


*

Seriously, do they really have to copy everything??? With the exception of the crappy looking windows it is an exact copy of the German one.

How about designing and developing your own stuff for once. hno:*


----------



## superchan7

[email protected] said:


> Seriously, do they really have to copy everything??? With the exception of the crappy looking windows it is an exact copy of the German one.
> 
> How about designing and developing your own stuff for once. hno:


I am not sure why the Shanghai maglev would need more trains, but in such a case, using local builders with tech transfer is probably the most cost-effective solution.

Although it makes sense to use the same body shape and colour scheme since they run on the same short line, one can easily tell that the details and overall finish of the local-made train units are definitely inferior. Oh well.


----------



## fragel

[email protected] said:


> Seriously, do they really have to copy everything??? With the exception of the crappy looking windows it is an exact copy of the German one.
> 
> How about designing and developing your own stuff for once. hno:


why are you so pissed off by some transrapid licensed products? just because they are made in China partially with Transrapid parts?


----------



## raymond_tung88

Silly_Walks said:


> Why didn't they make their own maglev a bit more streamlined?
> 
> I always wondered why the Transrapids were less streamlined than railed HSTs or the Japanese maglev. Especially after noticing how bumpy the ride was at 431 km/h. I wouldn't have wanted to take that bumpy ride all the way from Shanghai to Beijing.


Well, it's not going to happen. There isn't going to be a maglev line connecting Shanghai and Beijing.


----------



## raymond_tung88

[email protected] said:


> Seriously, do they really have to copy everything??? With the exception of the crappy looking windows it is an exact copy of the German one.
> 
> How about designing and developing your own stuff for once. hno:


Check out the CRH380A. It's completely designed and developed in China.


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## Sopomon

raymond_tung88 said:


> Check out the CRH380A. It's completely designed and developed in China.


Although it has *a lot* of design elements arising directly from the Japanese Shinkansen still.


----------



## Luli Pop

I understand why there's so much jealousy in this thread.

Myself, I'm very jealous of Chinese improuvement with HST. I also would like my country to have the only operative Maglev, the first two Maglev metro lines, the fastests trains in the world, the longest HSR network, ballast-less track everywhere, and transferred, stolen, or own developped HSR know-how and technology (I don't care how was it acquired, the important matter is to have it, with some posters criteria Italians shouldn't eat pasta because Marco Polo transferred know how from China).


----------



## Zero Gravity

Sopomon said:


> Although it has *a lot* of design elements arising directly from the Japanese Shinkansen still.


Correct. Saying it was "completely" designed and developed in China is quite far-fetched.
But nonetheless, the train was certainly heavily redesigned and modified.



Luli Pop said:


> I understand why there's so much jealousy in this thread.
> 
> Myself, I'm very jealous of Chinese improuvement with HST. I also would like my country to have the only operative Maglev, the first two Maglev metro lines, the fastests trains in the world, the longest HSR network, ballast-less track everywhere, and transferred, stolen, or own developped HSR know-how and technology (I don't care how was it acquired, the important matter is to have it, with some posters criteria Italians shouldn't eat pasta because Marco Polo transferred know how from China).


oh, and you are just a troll, fueling the old argument once again.hno:


----------



## in_China

Let's see how it will develop in China in future.
After detaining MOR-minister Liu it is said that the focus is changed to affordable travelling. 
The redesign of seating e.g. in CRH380BL-trains and limiting orders of new high-speed-trains (does CRH380D really come???) shows the new way of thinking.


----------



## fragel

CRH380D won't be delivered before mid 2012 anyway according to the original plan. Whether the previous order of 80 CRH380D will be limited or not, BST is currently making those trains.


----------



## Railfan

*CSR Zhuzhou Times New Material of air spring products to enter the field of high-speed car
*
2011-05-11

Recently, CSR Times New Materials Business Division elastic component ZEFRIO 380 successful projects high-speed car air spring 1280 the first set of bulk orders, contract value 14 million yuan, marking a new era of air spring products, materials officially entered the field of high-speed car, into the high-speed the ranks of the field of international advanced technology vehicles.
ZEFRIO 380 high-speed car air spring project is running in today's international high-speed vehicles to the highest standards, the air spring is elastic suspension components in rail transport the highest technological content of products. CSR Zhuzhou Times New Material air spring strength, range, in the formulation, structure involves, technology and other aspects of the formation of a unique core technology. Meanwhile, with the series over the years on the air spring technology accumulation, with vehicle manufacturers and rail transportation company Bombardier's internationally renowned strategic partnership, to carry out exchanges and cooperation in many areas, and to send technicians to further study in Germany Bombardier company learning measures. Through the tireless efforts of recent years, CSR Times New air spring design and material research and development capabilities are among the world advanced level, with air springs with the same stage of Europe's leading supplier of power.
It is reported that CSR Times customers very satisfied with the new material products, the era of new material is actively seeking another local landmark project in Europe - ZEFRIO 350 Italian high-speed car air spring project, the current CSR Times of new material technologies rating behind in the first position, the air springs market development overseas and domestic market share of other high-speed vehicles will play a huge role in promoting.


ZEFRIO 380 do not know of the progress

GOOGLE AUTO TRANSLATE


----------



## Railfan

New Train?


----------



## Svartmetall

Mika Montwald said:


> ^^
> 
> FYI:
> 
> Many of China HST Operating Standard are much higher than other existing HST lines:
> 
> 1) CRH380A trains power output raised to 9,600 kw from the CRH2 trains' 4,800 kw.
> 
> 2) Sustainable operating speed increased to 380 kmph from 200-250 kmph.
> 
> 3) Derailment coefficient lowered to 0.13 from CRH2 trains' 0.73
> 
> 
> If one is not emotional and one is scientific, then one quickly realizes that raising the Operating Standard required many, many real breakthrough innovations.
> There is no other way around this.


Now this has nothing to do with what he was saying about patent violations. He didn't dispute whether or not the rolling stock was of good quality, what he did post was that patents were being filed by the ministry of railways that may belong to other companies. It will be interesting to see whether this eventuates into anything or whether the accusations are false. If the accusations are proven to be false I am sure that news will be posted here.

Please, everyone, stop being reactionary to any negative news about China. If someone is being anti-China itself or anti-Chinese I will step in and that person will be punished, but there is absolutely no need to be so defensive when someone posts legitimate (if negative) news. I've asked nicely, I've cleaned up this thread, but to keep things running smoothly I will take stronger actions if it derails again (no pun intended).


----------



## Sopomon

Fan Railer said:


> Here's another video that someone else posted up on youtube. better angle :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy


I really love the design of the CIT 400B it's so sleek and smooth, they've actually made a lot of changes from the Velaro it was based on, ansd it looks like they're well on their way to designing a completely home-built HSR set


----------



## Nelsa123

Bullet trains told to reduce speed

_By Wang Zhenghua (China Daily)_










A worker cleans a high-speed train before it departs from Shanghai for Beijing. The State Council plans to lower the speed of the trains in the wake of a deadly train crash that killed 40 people last month. [Photo/Xinhua]
*
Decision shows slower program for rails: experts*

BEIJING - China has decided to lower the operating speed for its bullet trains due to safety concerns amid an overhaul of the high-speed rail system.

The decision, made by an executive meeting of the State Council presided over by Premier Wen Jiabao on Wednesday, came after a bullet train crash last month in which 40 people died and nearly 200 were injured.

The decision is a signal that China is slowing its ambitious high-speed rail program, which has put the country in the same league as Japan and Europe in terms of high-speed rail development, experts said.

The country also decided to reevaluate the safety systems of rail projects that have been approved but yet to start construction, and to suspend the examination or approval of newly proposed projects.

According to the Ministry of Railways, during the initial stages, trains with a top design speed of 350 kilometers per hour will be lowered to 300 km/h, and the trains designed to run up to 250 km/h will operate at 200 km/h.

The rails whose speed was previously raised to 200 km/h will be scaled down to 160 km/h. Ticket prices will also be reduced.

...

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-08/11/content_13089256.htm


----------



## urbanfan89

Looks like the Shanghai Faction is fighting hard to smear the High Speed Rail system. I tried to buy a ticket to Beijing today and was told they don't even know when they will resume sales. It's so unprofessional and smacks of a deliberate plot from the very top!


----------



## krnboy1009

Wait a minute, didnt Bombadier design these trains?


----------



## Nozumi 300

krnboy1009 said:


> Wait a minute, didnt Bombadier design these trains?


Nope, Bombardier only designed the CRH1 and is currently designing the CRH380D. 

I posted my question about the CRH380D on the High Speed Rail thread but should actually be here; any new info on the development of the CRH380D?


----------



## krnboy1009

So other sets are designed by the Chinese?


----------



## hmmwv

CRH380D/DL is officially designed by Bombadier, they designed Zefiro 380 specifically to satisfy the MOR contract. It's a different situation with CRH380B which are designed in China without official involvement from Siemens. Regarding the development of CRH380D, I have to assume it's on a slow track ever since Sheng took over.


----------



## Fan Railer

54 Sets of CRH380BL recalled by CNR for inspection and investigation into operational failures. Manufacturing of 17 sets currently ongoing are also suspended indefinitely for the time being. 

http://news.163.com/11/0812/04/7B7RCU4C00014AED.html

HUGE setback.


----------



## Luli Pop

Not really.
It's not even 10% of total HST constructed.


----------



## Fan Railer

Luli Pop said:


> Not really.
> It's not even 10% of total HST constructed.


You're missing the point (In fact, you're even proving my point). This is a big setback psychologically and propaganda-wise. The government has already suspended approval of construction of new HSR lines, and the withdrawal of trains from the Beijing Shanghai Line will disrupt scheduling. There is also little chance now that CSR will receive that contract to supply rolling stock for California's HSR project, halting China's dreams of exporting their HSR technology to the international market (whether it is really theirs or not).


----------



## Nexis

Fan Railer said:


> You're missing the point (In fact, you're even proving my point). This is a big setback psychologically and propaganda-wise. The government has already suspended approval of construction of new HSR lines, and the withdrawal of trains from the Beijing Shanghai Line will disrupt scheduling. There is also little chance now that CSR will receive that contract to supply rolling stock for *California's HSR project,* halting China's dreams of exporting their HSR technology to the international market (whether it is really theirs or not).


After this accident they shouldn't , i rather have a Japanese or German company due it....


----------



## hmmwv

Nexis said:


> After this accident they shouldn't , i rather have a Japanese or German company due it....


Funny how people feel this way, cuz this accident is not related to the trains at all but rather management, and also the trains involved are of European (BST CRH1) and Japanese (Kawasaki-Sifang CRH2) origins. Furthermore people tend to view German trains as safer despite that 1. ICE's train related accident killed way more people, and 2. Transrapid's management related accident caused the only maglev fatalities in the world.

On the other hand, like I have mentioned multiple times I do not see CSR or CNR winning the CAHSR contract regardless of this accident. We want our trains built in America, so the Chinese designs will not offer significant cost advantage over Japanese or European ones. Also the Japanese showed willingness to finance a large portion of the construction cost, which I doubt either CSR or CNR still have the capability to do so given their current financial state.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

hmmwv said:


> Funny how people feel this way, cuz this accident is not related to the trains at all but rather management, and also the trains involved are of European (BST CRH1) and Japanese (Kawasaki-Sifang CRH2) origins. Furthermore people tend to view German trains as safer despite that 1. ICE's train related accident killed way more people, and 2. Transrapid's management related accident caused the only maglev fatalities in the world.
> 
> On the other hand, like I have mentioned multiple times I do not see CSR or CNR winning the CAHSR contract regardless of this accident. We want our trains built in America, so the Chinese designs will not offer significant cost advantage over Japanese or European ones. Also the Japanese showed willingness to finance a large portion of the construction cost, which I doubt either CSR or CNR still have the capability to do so given their current financial state.


Here we go trying to place blame of the accident as human error and not a technical flaw of their system that had been indicated and admitted by people directly involved.
In a short while you'll be hearing PRC fan boys stating that their equipment are 100% reliable and that the accident was due 100% human error.hno:


----------



## Dobbo

The thing that struck me was the reference to "going through a red signal" (or words to that effect).

Hopefully this was something lost in translation and they are not expecting drivers to operate using standerd signalling? I assumed that the signaling would be in cab?

It is a shame that the crash occured, but i do not think that it is suprising. China has a history of taking "great leaps forward" that ultimately cause more harm than good. Obviously it is not possible for a nation to become pre-eminant at what is a relativly complicated skillset overnight - there is no substitute for experience - and i hope that this is a lesson learned and China takes a more leaisurely route to the top.


----------



## hmmwv

SamuraiBlue said:


> Here we go trying to place blame of the accident as human error and not a technical flaw of their system that had been indicated and admitted by people directly involved.
> In a short while you'll be hearing PRC fan boys stating that their equipment are 100% reliable and that the accident was due 100% human error.hno:


Yes there are possible technical reasons behind the accident, but it's related to track signal systems not the trains themselves. The root cause is still management because the fact that lighting strike caused power and signal loss itself is not acceptable. It begs to ask why didn't MOR specify lighting strike resistance in its RFP. Also why Wenzhou South dispatch let Yongjia Station to release D301 even before automatic control has been restored. The investigation of this accident is highly political, the current MOR management will try to shift the blame as much as possible, and blame on a circuit board is the easily way to go. Nobody will claim Chinese trains are 100% reliable since the latest recall of CRH380BLs, their problems during service and factory QC are pretty well documented. In fact I doubt anybody can claim the reliability of CRH even prior to the accident, since we all know how "well" CRH1 performed during its early days of service:bash:.



Dobbo said:


> The thing that struck me was the reference to "going through a red signal" (or words to that effect).
> Hopefully this was something lost in translation and they are not expecting drivers to operate using standerd signalling? I assumed that the signaling would be in cab?


The driver received all green lights from CTCS incab. But at that time CTCS is in manual mode so the driver should be instructed to not follow the visual drive protocol and limit to 20km/h (the mode D3115 was under). Sadly that's not the case because Wenzhou South dispatch let D301 leave Yongjia Station in normal operating mode (250km/h and only follow in cab signaling). Now the question about equipment failure is focused on this fact too, because I'm under the impression that if the system is in manual then the driver should get all green in cab signal.


----------



## foxmulder

SamuraiBlue said:


> Here we go trying to place blame of the accident as human error and not a technical flaw of their system that had been indicated and admitted by people directly involved.
> In a short while you'll be hearing PRC fan boys stating that their equipment are 100% reliable and that the accident was due 100% human error.hno:



He has contributed to this topic much much more than you, If he is a fan boy, you are a ....
:cheers:


----------



## stoneybee

foxmulder said:


> He has contributed to this topic much much more than you, If he is a fan boy, you are a ....
> :cheers:


You got my vote too.


----------



## hmmwv

Recalled CRH380BLs arrived at Shanghai Hongqiao CRH maintenance depot pending inspection and repair. (Pictures courtesy of Xinhua and Sina)


----------



## WatcherZero

$5bn Shanghai-Beijing railway dual listing IPO planned for next year (2012) on Hong Kong and Shanghai stock markets has been officially postponed until at least 2013. The company is blaming government regulatory hurdles implemented as part of the safety review for the delay. Chinese media is saying theirs a recognition by national government that there would be no public appetite for a rail IPO of any kind in the current climate.


----------



## Fan Railer




----------



## foxmulder

Good, thy are in operation.

I am wondering when we are going to see that CRH420 thingy


----------



## Fan Railer

foxmulder said:


> Good, thy are in operation.
> 
> I am wondering when we are going to see that CRH420 thingy


With the way things are now, probably not in a LONG time. I haven't even been able to dig anything major up on the CRH-6, which was supposedly to be put in service by the end of this year.


----------



## foxmulder

Fan Railer said:


> With the way things are now, probably not in a LONG time. I haven't even been able to dig anything major up on the CRH-6, which was supposedly to be put in service by the end of this year.


CRH-6 shouldn't be high speed one tough. If I am not wrong it's max will be just around 180km/h


----------



## FM 2258

Fan Railer said:


> Finally, a clear and crisp (in terms of audio) clip of the CRH380AL set accelerating. Any word on the delivery status and service assignments of these trainsets? The wiki pages have been pretty neglected in respects to this area of information.


It sounds beautiful!


----------



## Fan Railer

foxmulder said:


> CRH-6 shouldn't be high speed one tough. If I am not wrong it's max will be just around 180km/h


Oh yea, I know that.... last update, speeds ranged from 180 to 220. But there haven't been updates ANYWHERE on them.... they just kind of disappeared after that....


----------



## foxmulder

Updates about any CRH is really limited nowadays anyway... As I wrote before, I think most of the people who have been bringing updates from Chinese websites lost their enthusiasm after the accident and following slow down. Until a speed increase it will go like this I suspect. I don't think project is cancelled.


----------



## Silly_Walks

foxmulder said:


> Updates about any CRH is really limited nowadays anyway... As I wrote before, I think most of the people who have been bringing updates from Chinese websites lost their enthusiasm after the accident and following slow down. Until a speed increase it will go like this I suspect. I don't think project is cancelled.


Or there is no longer a budget from the 50 Cent Party going towards rail promotion, since rail has become so unpopular with the firing of the MOR, the slow downs and the accident.


----------



## foxmulder

Silly_Walks said:


> Or there is no longer a budget from the 50 Cent Party going towards rail promotion, since rail has become so unpopular with the firing of the MOR, the slow downs and the accident.


Rail is a must for China. Advertised or not China will continue to invest on it.


----------



## Silly_Walks

foxmulder said:


> Rail is a must for China. Advertised or not China will continue to invest on it.


I 100% agree that should be the case.


----------



## UD2

dynasty change in China upcoming.


----------



## yaohua2000

*CRH 500 roll off the production line*


----------



## yaohua2000




----------



## Silly_Walks

Wow, where did that come from all of a sudden?!


And might i suggest naming it "The Toucan"?


----------



## derekf1974

Nice train!


----------



## AlexNL

Whoa, what a huge nose!

What's the top speed for this train set?


----------



## CarlosBlueDragon

Silly_Walks said:


> Wow, where did that come from all of a sudden?!
> 
> 
> And might i suggest naming it "The Toucan"?


:lol:

yes look like....


----------



## Ariel74

AlexNL said:


> Whoa, what a huge nose!
> 
> What's the top speed for this train set?


It's anybody's guess. But, the CRH380-series did 486km/h, and this is the first of the CRH500-series, 6M configuration, made to break records. So, make your own bet


----------



## drunkenmunkey888

Ariel74 said:


> It's anybody's guess. But, the CRH380-series did 486km/h, and this is the first of the CRH500-series, 6M configuration, made to break records. So, make your own bet


I was unable to find any news or media coverage about this train. 

I guess the train itself a good thing at this point because with all the negative media about speed at the cost of safety, I assume China will not roll out a faster train unless they are absolutely confident that its technological foundations are solid? Or am I being too optimistic/naive?


----------



## Ariel74

drunkenmunkey888 said:


> I was unable to find any news or media coverage about this train.
> 
> I guess the train itself a good thing at this point because with all the negative media about speed at the cost of safety, I assume China will not roll out a faster train unless they are absolutely confident that its technological foundations are solid? Or am I being too optimistic/naive?


The negative media about speed, as well as the lowering of the operating speed of CRH at the hands of the new railway minister has nothing to do with "technological foundations". They have everything to do with politics, e.g. that of the airplane & oil industry. 

Discussions about the politics behind all this have been all over Chinese language forums.


----------



## hmmwv

Sopomon said:


> The Fastech 360 had those too, I wonder why they chose not to use them on the E5


I think the Fastech 360 is the first one to use those cat ear type of air brakes. And in the Hasea thread which posted the first CIT500 picture the poster also indicated that the air brake on CIT500 is of similar design.



KingNick said:


> Not even 350 is really economical these days. Air drag squares with increasing speed and its not the question if you can create enough power for such speed, but the energy consumption. You have to gain an almost unreal increase in efficiency to be as economical as we are nowadys with 200-250. Plus there are many more problems (contact wire, traction...) going hand in hand with increasing speed.


Of course there are problems associated with speed, no one is questioning that. What I'm trying to say is that you can't say technology won't ever overcome those obstacles. Just like technologies have solved the weight issue which baffled engineers in many industries for many years.


----------



## elianzoom

KingNick said:


> But on the other hand it's way safer and increases travel comfort. By nowadys technologies, too much weight is actually not a real argument anymore. The French made it decades ago.


 Actually the shared boogie between carriages, was first made by Spanish Talgo Train, many years ago ( as far as I know ), and is still in use. The shared boogie ( actually independents weels ) in the case of Talgo are self guided weels what provides a parallel atack wheel to track ( the weels follow the track in a curve since they are guided by the previous car ) and a very low yaw force. Nowadays this system is used in the Talgo 350 Km/h HST, in the Barcelon-Madrid HSL and by comparison with the ICE 350 that runs in the same line, is more stable and still than the german model.


----------



## joseph1951

elianzoom said:


> Actually the shared boogie between carriages, was first made by Spanish Talgo Train, many years ago ( as far as I know ), and is still in use. The shared boogie ( actually independents weels ) in the case of Talgo are self guided weels what provides a parallel atack wheel to track ( the weels follow the track in a curve since they are guided by the previous car ) and a very low yaw force. Nowadays this system is used in the Talgo 350 Km/h HST, in the Barcelon-Madrid HSL and by comparison with the ICE 350 that runs in the same line, is more stable and still than the german model.


Actually all the EMU Italian Eletrotreno family (ERT200, ETR220, ETR250,ETR300) were artculated. The ETR200 was buit in 1936, and in 1939 reached a top speed of 203km/h on the historical line from Milan to Bologna. At that time,(in 1939) it took 75 minutes to cover the 219 km from Milan to Bologna

ETR200 link on wikipedia: (1936)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETR_200

...
etr300 (year 1952)

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settebello_(treno)


----------



## elianzoom

I am reffering more a nowadays running train, but great I didn´t know this seems to be one of the first HST in Europe impressive really. In America there was some articulated trains with jacobs boogies in 1934 , The Zephir, The Burlington Express etc ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Zephyr. As far as I know articulated trains are really more stable and safe than non-articulated trains, it seems that in some HST accidents happened in the last years, TGV has behaved much better than non articulated trains like ICE´s, the derailment is much more often in a non articulated unit.


----------



## makita09

hmmwv said:


> I think Samurai is right about the size of each car is limited, so to achieve the same seating capacity as a 380AL with the same number of cars the only way is follow TGV Duplex' design. Otherwise you'll have to increase the number of cars of the trainset. Eitherway the total weight of the trainset will be increased, and more powerful motors are needed, the entire drivetrain becomes heavier, etc.


He's right but for the wrong reason. No matter what arrangement the distance between bogies has the same maximum (assuming standard car width), and this is dictated by the loading guage of the railway. TGVs cars are slightly under the theoretical maximum for an articulated coach that still fits on French tracks, so one assumes that another part of the reason for shorter cars is to reduce axle load and/or find a configuration that arrives at the 200m standard HS train length - which is another consideration.

At the end of the day, for whatever reasons they arrived at, it seems there is little between jacobs and conventional bogies, judging by the various manfacturers not feeling the need to swap to the other paradigm, and instead just keep building on their existing expertise. If there was a natural advantage to either I'm sure Siemens and Alstom would be using the same system by now.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

makita09 said:


> He's right but for the wrong reason. No matter what arrangement the distance between bogies has the same maximum (assuming standard car width), and this is dictated by the loading guage of the railway. TGVs cars are slightly under the theoretical maximum for an articulated coach that still fits on French tracks, so one assumes that another part of the reason for shorter cars is to reduce axle load and/or find a configuration that arrives at the 200m standard HS train length - which is another consideration.
> 
> At the end of the day, for whatever reasons they arrived at, it seems there is little between jacobs and conventional bogies, judging by the various manfacturers not feeling the need to swap to the other paradigm, and instead just keep building on their existing expertise. If there was a natural advantage to either I'm sure Siemens and Alstom would be using the same system by now.


Another of makita09's mindless fanboyism I believe.
I haven't given any reason for why Jacobs bogies are utilized only stating they need shorter cars. Which is actually a design trade-offs to the rigidness of the interconnecting bogies so they can make curves.


----------



## hmmwv

A collection of EMUs and DMUs ever seen action on Chinese railways.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

To be honest, I don't think the CRH500 looks that bad from that view.


----------



## dumbfword

which train is this?


----------



## yaohua2000

dumbfword said:


> which train is this?


The rear end of CIT500.


----------



## dumbfword

yaohua2000 said:


> The rear end of CIT500.


Cool. Thanks!


----------



## foxmulder

So, CRH500 basically has a 380A nose at the rear?


----------



## Silver Swordsman

^I was gonna say that.


----------



## hmmwv

foxmulder said:


> So, CRH500 basically has a 380A nose at the rear?


Yes it has different drive cars at the rear.
CIT500, not CRH500. CRH track inspection trains carry the CRH designation, such as CRH400A, but modified test trains carry the CIT designation.


----------



## Attus

So this train can go to one direction only?


----------



## stoneybee

Attus said:


> So this train can go to one direction only?


No, it is just a test train for use in technical testing and experimentation. It is not a regular train built for commercial services.


----------



## stoneybee

Silver Swordsman said:


> To be honest, I don't think the CRH500 looks that bad from that view.


Agreed, I actually think the CRH500 looks very cool.:cheers:


----------



## riles28

Any latest pic. about CIT 500?


----------



## Fan Railer

Update on CRH380AL revenue roster:





And a bonus:


----------



## hmmwv

BL seems to accelerate faster and louder than the AL.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> How big/long is the test loop? Is there a map for it? I hope the CIT/CRH500 will come into regular service. My second favorite after the CRH3 Velaro.


Well it probably won't as it's a specially designed test train with a dedicated drive car, I don't think it can be driven the other way in full speed.


----------



## hkskyline

*China CNR Corp. stocks climb on Bangladesh order*

BEIJING, April 5 (Xinhua) -- Shares of China CNR Corp., the country's second-largest train maker, gained after media reported that Bangladesh will purchase key high-speed rail technologies from the company's subsidiary.

As of 11 a.m., the company's stocks had climbed 0.97 percent to 4.15 yuan (0.66 U.S. dollars) per share on the Shanghai Stock Exchange.

China CNR Corp.'s Dalian Electric Traction Research and Development Center will export traction inverters and network control systems to Bangladesh, according to the reports. This will be the first time for China to export its own traction and network control systems, which are key technologies of such trains, according to a Beijing Times article.

The contract contains 20 sets of high-speed rail network control systems, 40 sets of traction inverters and 40 sets of auxiliary inverters, the newspaper said without mentioning how much the contract is worth.

China CNR is scheduled to release its financial report on April 28. It said in January that it expected to see its net profit surge over 50 percent in 2011 from a year earlier, on China's booming railway and metro construction.

The profit estimate came despite the company's recall of a raft of trains after a deadly accident last summer.

On July 23 of 2011, a high-speed train slammed into a stalled train near the city of Wenzhou in the eastern province of Zhejiang, leaving 40 dead and 172 injured.

The company recalled 54 trains it supplied for the high-speed rail between Beijing and Shanghai three weeks later. All the trains resumed service in December after modifications and repeated tests, according to the Ministry of Railways.


----------



## hmmwv

Interesting, is Bangladesh gonna build the train locally? For some reason I suspect this is real HSR, probably another sub high speed EMU.


----------



## krnboy1009

Are all of the train makers in China owned by the chinese government?


----------



## hmmwv

krnboy1009 said:


> Are all of the train makers in China owned by the chinese government?


Yes, all locomotive and rolling stock makers are state owned corporations, including joint ventures with foreign companies. However many component makers are private companies.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

What is the track gauge of the Bangladesh high speed railway? Existing 1676 mm, or some other?


----------



## Railfan




----------



## hmmwv

According to the CRI report 20 trainsets will be exported.

*China's High-speed Rail Technology Goes Abroad*
2012-04-05 10:35:58 CRIENGLISH.com Web Editor: yangyang66

http://english.cri.cn/6909/2012/04/05/2982s691396.htm

China has signed a contract to provide high-speed trains to Bangladesh in a deal that marks the first time for the export of China-made high-speed rail technology, the Beijing Times reports.

Under the contract, China CNR Corporation Limited will assemble 20 high-speed trains with a total of 60 cars for Bangladesh. The terms also require China to supply 20 network control systems, 40 traction inverters and 40 auxiliary inverters.

The deal is the first under which China will export its self-improved network control systems and traction inverters after a long period of innovation and improvements to high-speed train technology it originally imported. The move indicates that China is able to compete in the area of high-speed rail technology in the international arena.

Network control and traction systems are core high-speed train technologies. Traction systems determine a train's stability and carrying capacity, while network control systems direct the operation of the trains.


----------



## yaohua2000

CRH380D-6601 and “Tanggula Express”


----------



## foxmulder

They are testing it hard from the looks


----------



## Railfan

yaohua2000 said:


> CRH380D-6601 and “Tanggula Express”


OMG! :O


----------



## hmmwv

380D is now the prettiest kid on the block.


----------



## big-dog

^^ that's the best CRH train I've ever seen.

BTW who knows what's the green window on the left of the picture?


----------



## staff

Wow, truly a stunning design.


----------



## Attus

What's that 380D? I means it is the development of some other type? I mean, as far as I know, CRH380A was developed from CRH2 which has its roots in Kawasaki E2. Has CRH380D a similar story?


----------



## yaohua2000

Attus said:


> What's that 380D? I means it is the development of some other type? I mean, as far as I know, CRH380A was developed from CRH2 which has its roots in Kawasaki E2. Has CRH380D a similar story?


Zefiro 380. The pictures above were captured in Bombardier Sifang factory in Qingdao. The green color Tibetan 25T on the left were also produced by Bombardier Sifang Transportation.


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the track gauge of the Bangladesh high speed railway? Existing 1676 mm, or some other?





hmmwv said:


> For some reason I suspect this is [not] real HSR, probably another sub high speed EMU.


I've just looked back through the Bangladesh Railway thread in the Bangladesh forum and can't see any discussion of high speed rail plans. The supposed Bangladeshi order is for twenty trainsets, and I did find that Bangladesh Railway has ordered twenty DMUs from a Chinese manufacturer. 

I suspect that Bangladeshi sources are referring to these trains as "high speed" because they're faster than existing Bangladeshi trains, and Chinese reporters haven't thought to question it. This seems to be quite common in developing countries, because Chinese plans for an "iron Silk Road" and new railways in countries like Laos get reported as high speed rail when they are frieght-oriented and not HSR by Chinese or international standards.


----------



## Attus

yaohua2000 said:


> Zefiro 380. The pictures above were captured in Bombardier Sifang factory in Qingdao. The green color Tibetan 25T on the left were also produced by Bombardier Sifang Transportation.


Thanks.


----------



## Fan Railer

big-dog said:


> HXD3D


Wrong thread, but ok. It is a nice looking locomotive. Any news on the testing of the D sets?


----------



## everywhere

big-dog said:


> One more photo


This is one fierce-looking high-speed train. :cheers:

BTW, any news when it will start its actual operations?


----------



## everywhere

hmmwv said:


> This is said to be a 160-200km/h CRH6 prototype at CSR Puzhen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compare to earlier render



I think it is for metro/subway purposes.


----------



## foxmulder

everywhere said:


> This is one fierce-looking high-speed train. :cheers:
> 
> BTW, any news when it will start its actual operations?


I agree, it is my favorite, too  So far, it is for test purposes only and as far as I know there are no plans for it to run with passengers anytime soon.


----------



## yaohua2000

everywhere said:


> This is one fierce-looking high-speed train. :cheers:
> 
> BTW, any news when it will start its actual operations?


It's not designed for actual operation, but aims to break the 2007 French speed record.


----------



## everywhere

^^ Thanks a lot.


----------



## hmmwv

CRH6 commuter rail EMU rolling out. The beginning of the end of Type 25 passenger cars.


----------



## hmmwv

More CRH380D pics


----------



## AlexNL

It looks way better with that hole closed.


----------



## Mr_Dru

hmmwv said:


> More CRH380D pics


Amazing design!


----------



## Spikespiegel

Finally an asian train that I like!


----------



## hmmwv

Spikespiegel said:


> Finally an asian train that I like!


Zefiro 380 is an European (Bombardier) design.


----------



## foxmulder

^^ Canadian.


----------



## AlexNL

Bombardier Transportation's headquarter is in Berlin. It's the Aerospace division that is headquartered in Canada.


----------



## Sopomon

If it's possible for a train to look adorable, the CRH6 has certainly done it.
I just wish they'd stuck with the green concept colour scheme, it looks good, and would differentiate it from the truly high-speed trains.


----------



## hmmwv

AlexNL said:


> It looks way better with that hole closed.


I believe those pictures were taken during its cold (non-powered) rolling tests (冷滑试验）so the train needs to be pulled by another locomotive. 



Sopomon said:


> If it's possible for a train to look adorable, the CRH6 has certainly done it.
> I just wish they'd stuck with the green concept colour scheme, it looks good, and would differentiate it from the truly high-speed trains.


I agree completely, the blue scheme should be reserved for true high speed trains while green scheme used for lower speed EMUs. The problem is that in China the world EMU (动车）is currently used to describe high speed trains 250km/h or lower. That's why the 160km/h CRH6 is a "CRH" in the first place, they'd better also bring out the 200km/h version as rumored.


----------



## Railfan

hmmwv said:


> More CRH380D pics


Lovely train!

Nice Desing


----------



## everywhere

yaohua2000 said:


> It's not designed for actual operation, but aims to break the 2007 French speed record.


Hopefully that train will be the sole basis for future generations of high-speed trains, equipped with world-first technologies and safety features. :cheers:


----------



## everywhere

hmmwv said:


> CRH6 commuter rail EMU rolling out. The beginning of the end of Type 25 passenger cars.


What are the routes will it serve?


----------



## drunkenmunkey888

everywhere said:


> What are the routes will it serve?


If I had to guess, I'd say probably Shanghai Metro Line 22 will probably use it.


----------



## Silly_Walks

drunkenmunkey888 said:


> If I had to guess, I'd say probably Shanghai Metro Line 22 will probably use it.


A CRH labelled train on a metro line?


----------



## hmmwv

drunkenmunkey888 said:


> If I had to guess, I'd say probably Shanghai Metro Line 22 will probably use it.


It's already labeled Harmony so it's a National Railway train, it can be used on any electrified lines, my guess would be replacing remaining non-CRH passenger services around Yangtze and Zhujiang River Delta.


----------



## kw0943

How about the 250 km/h service. Any news about allowing trains that were scaled back to 200 km/h run again at 250 km/h?


----------



## hmmwv

^^No


----------



## everywhere

*China exports electric bullet train to Georgia*
(China Daily, July 18)



> BEIJING -- A Chinese electric locomotive manufacturer said on Tuesday it had delivered electric bullet trains that could operate at a maximum speed of 140 kilometers per hour to Georgia.
> 
> The electric bullet trains, manufactured by Puzhen Co Ltd, a subsidiary of China South Locomotive and Rolling Stock Corporation Ltd, the country's largest train manufacturer, marked a breakthrough for Chinese train makers to tap the former Soviet market.



more: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2012-07/18/content_15594129.htm



*China's railway giant announces 126 million USD manufacturing center in Malaysia*
(Shanghai Daily/Xinhua, July 18)



> KUALA LUMPUR, July 18 (Xinhua) -- China's leading railways manufacturer, China South Locomotive and Rolling Stock Corporation Ltd. (CSR), unveiled a plan Wednesday to set up its ASEAN manufacturing center in Malaysia, citing great market potential in the region as well as the close China-Malaysia relations.
> 
> CSR Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive Co Ltd. (CSR ZELC), a subsidiary under CSR and an active player in Malaysia's mass transit projects, announced the plan of the 50-acre facilities located in Batu Gajah of the Perak State, some 200 kilometers from the capital of Kuala Lumpur.
> 
> The company is investing up to 400 million ringgit (126.7 million U.S. dollars) in the "CSR ASEAN Rail Center", which would cover all-in-one scope of work of production, assembly, testing, overhaul and refurbishment, said Luo Chongfu, the company' s Vice President of Investment and Strategic Development.


more: http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.asp?id=83842


----------



## Silly_Walks

To call 140 km/h a "bullet train" is a sign of a very bad marketing student at work.


----------



## everywhere

^^ More of an EMU I guess


*China exports trains to Sri Lanka*
(Shanghai Daily, July 19)



> QINGDAO, July 19 (Xinhua) -- A total of 120 trains were shipped from the port city of Qingdao in east China's Shandong province to Sri Lanka on Thursday.


more: http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.asp?id=84098


----------



## joseph1951

hmmwv said:


> Correct, the rumors out there now is that speed restoration will occur by the second half of this year. Only selected routes will see speed increases though, most likely Beijing-Shanghai and Wuhan-Shenzhen to 350km/h, it's possible that Beijing-Shanghai will go 380km/h but personally I don't think it's gonna happen. Intercity services such as Beijing-Tianjin, Shanghai-Nanjing, and Shanghai-Hangzhou are expected to return to 350km/h too.


As Mr Pepys of SNCF, said a few years ago in London, to go to 400-440 km/h isnt' a technical problem. 

The problem is * economical *due to* very high *energy consumption and wear and tear. 

At the moment , at least in France, they are trying to travel at 360 km/h but consuming far less (in wear and tear and energy) of what a TGV Duplex comsumes now a 320km/h.... The aim is to produce a train that at 360 km/h consumes 50% less per passenger than a TGV travelling a 300 km/h...

A traditional train has its limits and weaknesses in at least 3 components which can be eliminated : catenary, pantograph and wheels.
To run commercially at 450- 500 km/h you can eliminate catenary and pantograph and use a linear motor, instead. 
Also, this solution will make the train lighter. 

Futhermore making the train 1,5 m shorter and 1,2m narrower will improve its aerodinamycs.

IT is assumed that the loss of contact between rail -wheel occurs at around 650-700 km/h. 

AT this point you can even eliminates the rails and the wheels , and the you are left with a maglev.

But even the maglev will be able to go supersonic only in a partial vacuum environment.

*The "air resistance" is the biggest enemy of terrestrial very high speed*.


----------



## kw0943

> Top speeds on the mainland's high-speed rail network, cut in the wake of a fatal crash a year ago, are set to be increased by 20km/h - a move that has divided academics.
> The crash on July 23 in Wenzhou , Zhejiang , which killed 40 people and injured 172 others, forced the government to lower the top speed of high-speed trains from 350km/h to 300km/h.
> 
> 
> 
> Professor Wang Mengshu , a key drafter of the blueprint for developing high-speed railways, said the Ministry of Railways had told its subsidiaries to prepare for increased speed limits.
> 
> "High speed lines operating at 300km/h at the moment will speed up to 320km/h, and the same increase will be applied on lines operating at 200km/h," said Wang, who works at Beijing Jiaotong University.
> 
> The move could reduce travelling times between Beijing and Shanghai by about half an hour. Trial runs have already started on some lines.
> 
> Wang said the proposal was being evaluated by experts and that if the results of test runs were satisfactory, the new speed limit would be implemented across the mainland.
> 
> He said one reason for the move was that the Wenzhou accident last year had nothing to do with the speed at which trains travel. However, a more important reason, he said, was that a relatively small increase would once again make the mainland's high-speed trains the world's fastest.
> 
> "We don't want to go back to 350km/h for now," Wang said. "Running at that high a speed would put a huge stress on our rail lines and trains, accelerating their ageing and raising the cost of maintenance. But 320km/h, according to our calculations, is affordable and economical. It will also restore our position as No1."
> 
> Critics say the mainland has not learned the lessons of the crash.
> 
> Professor Zhao Jian , an economist also at Beijing Jiaotong University, said that though the Wenzhou accident was caused by a series of weather, technical and human mishaps, it had revealed the root cause of all the problems in the mainland's high-speed programme was speed itself.
> 
> "The biggest problem of China's high-speed rail programme is the irrational pursuit of high speed," he said.
> 
> From the construction of rail lines to the manufacturing of bullet trains, the integration of control software bought from different countries, the evaluation of the safety of signalling equipment, the setting of operating speeds and the training of drivers and traffic controllers, the authorities had been rushing to accomplish in just a few years what developed countries such as Japan and Germany had taken decades to achieve, Zhao said.
> 
> "China doesn't need trains running at 350km/h or higher. For passenger service, 200km/h is enough because anything more than that is a waste of energy and too much of a luxury to the low-income population who are in the most desperate need of the service," he said.
> 
> Zhao said some government officials had realised the problem after the accident and had admitted privately that they had made a mistake. The 350km/h standard is longer being stipulated in the construction of some new lines but officials have never admitted that in public.
> 
> "It's all about face," he said.
> 
> What happened on the night of the Wenzhou crash remains a mystery, even though, more than five months after the crash, the State Council released a 78-page report by independent investigators.
> 
> It said heavy lightning struck the line between the Yongjia and Wenzhou stations, melting a fuse in the Wenzhou station's traffic control system. That meant a computer could no longer judge correctly whether there was a train on the line or not, and it reported there was not, with a green signal showing on traffic controllers' monitors.
> 
> However, the computer of a train running on the line detected something had gone wrong, automatically forcing the train to a stop. Its driver radioed the traffic control centre but his wireless communication equipment had also been crippled by the lightning strikes. For nearly eight minutes, he lost contact with the control centre and could not start the train.
> 
> Seeing that everything was fine on their monitors, train controllers let another train set off. They only re-established communication with the first train half a minute before the crash and realised that something had gone seriously wrong. But when they tried to warn the driver of the second train, the radio communication was interrupted in the middle of the transmission and never re-established. The second train ran into the rear of the first at a speed of about 83km/h.
> 
> The investigation report did not explain why the traffic control system had detected the melting of a fuse but continued beaming "green" signals, saying only that some important documents related to the design of the equipment had been lost. That prompted speculation that the mainland's designers had not fully understood the various software programs they had bought from different overseas vendors and combined hastily to meet government deadlines.
> 
> Experts say the crash could have been avoided.
> 
> Wang said many train controllers were fresh graduates from university with little experience of working on railways and relied too much on computers and instrument readings when making decisions. Even though the controllers in Wenzhou had received reports of abnormalities from maintenance workers on the line after the lightning strikes, they still believed what they saw on their computer screens. If they had radioed the second train soon after losing contact with the first, the crash could have been avoided, he said.
> 
> Yang Wanzhi , a spokesman for the China Railway (SEHK: 0390) Signal & Communication Corporation, which designed and produced the defective traffic control equipment, said it had taken steps to improve safety after the crash but the work had not yet been finished. The key was to ensure that no signalling products would send a "green" signal when they experienced malfunctions.
> 
> Wang said the ministry had set up courses at more than 30 universities to train drivers and traffic controllers. After the accident, stricter quality standards were also imposed on suppliers of high-speed-railway equipment to ensure that only the highest quality equipment would be used on the lines and trains.
> 
> The railway industry is keen to rebuild its image.
> 
> During negotiations with the Thai government early this year, a representative of the Chinese railway industry encountered Japanese counterparts trying to sell Japanese technology to the Thais, Wang said.
> 
> "When the Japanese told the Thais that Chinese trains were not safe because we had the accident last year, we felt angry but had few words to fight back with," he said. "Our investigative report had emphasised equipment failure too much, because it was a rare and remediable issue."
> 
> The central government's ambitious blueprint for the development of the high-speed rail networks remains unchallenged. Even though exports of high-speed-rail technology have suffered since the accident, the construction of high-speed rail lines continues apace.
> 
> The ministry will spend more than 500 billion yuan this year to complete more than 6,000 kilometres of rail line - more than half of it high-speed. The the Ministry of Science and Technology has also begun work on designing trains with a top speed of 500km/h.
> 
> [email protected]


I suppose it is official
The speed will be raised to 320 km/h for the highest speed trains and 220 km/h for the D-series trains. How about the Z-series trains? Will they be raised to 180km/h from 160km/h? That's my prediction.


----------



## Silly_Walks

> a relatively small increase would once again make the mainland's high-speed trains the world's fastest.


Well no, since other countries also have some 320 km/h lines.




> "We don't want to go back to 350km/h for now," Wang said. "Running at that high a speed would put a huge stress on our rail lines and trains, accelerating their ageing and raising the cost of maintenance.


Well, duh. It's what a lot of people on this forum also predicted even before the first 350 km/h line opened, but they were booed by some tunnel-visioned folk here who can't take criticism even if it is justified.



> "The biggest problem of China's high-speed rail programme is the irrational pursuit of high speed," he said.


Not really... it's good to skip a few steps when improving your rail network, and go straight to highspeed... it also frees up space for your slower passenger trains on the old network, while still preparing you for the future.


The cause of the accident was a combination of technical things going wrong, and human impatience to keep things going... that doesn't mean construction is going too fast, or trains are moving too fast.


I would have loved my Beijing-Shanghai trip being 4:18 in stead of 4:48.


----------



## foxmulder

Silly_Walks said:


> Well no, since other countries also have some 320 km/h lines.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, duh. It's what a lot of people on this forum also predicted even before the first 350 km/h line opened, but they were booed by some tunnel-visioned folk here who can't take criticism even if it is justified.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really... it's good to skip a few steps when improving your rail network, and go straight to highspeed... it also frees up space for your slower passenger trains on the old network, while still preparing you for the future.
> 
> 
> The cause of the accident was a combination of technical things going wrong, and human impatience to keep things going... that doesn't mean construction is going too fast, or trains are moving too fast.
> 
> 
> I would have loved my Beijing-Shanghai trip being 4:18 in stead of 4:48.



We will see who is tunnel-visioned


----------



## navingunaratne

*CSR Qingdao DMU for Sri Lanka*

Does anyone has pictures of this DMU shipment?




everywhere said:


> ^^ More of an EMU I guess
> 
> 
> *China exports trains to Sri Lanka*
> (Shanghai Daily, July 19)
> 
> 
> 
> more: http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.asp?id=84098


----------



## big-dog

500kmph CRH, CRH380A, CRH6, Beijing metro side by side










from weibo.com/csrxcb


----------



## everywhere

navingunaratne said:


> Does anyone has pictures of this DMU shipment?


Try this one:

http://srilankafoundation.com/2012/07/china-exports-120-trains-to-sri-lanka/
- that's one of the trains shipped from Qingdao to Sri Lanka...


----------



## Fan Railer

EXCLUSIVE: First video clips of the new CRH380D set testing on the Iron Ring test track in Beijing. Enjoy the sweet propulsion =D


----------



## FM 2258

^^
Great video, it's a lovely looking train.


----------



## foxmulder

big-dog said:


> 500kmph CRH, CRH380A, CRH6, Beijing metro side by side
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> from weibo.com/csrxcb


Good find. :cheers:


----------



## big-dog

delete


----------



## everywhere

-del-


----------



## Sopomon

^^
Come on, we've gone over this, please post in the relevant threads.


----------



## hmmwv

big-dog said:


> 500kmph CRH, CRH380A, CRH6, Beijing metro side by side
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> from weibo.com/csrxcb


Note the CRH6 is on a transport dolly, normally it's the same height as the metro.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

The CRH6 is more streamlined than I thought. I thought the nose was flatter. Those are some really good looking trains.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> I've never seen these before. The CRH500 looks great.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why the CRH6-160 gets the "CRH" designation if running less than 200km/h is not officially high speed.
> 
> Also why would they put work into designing a slower CRH6-160 instead of making one type of CRH6 (example CRH6-200) and run it slower on lines it needs to be slower on. Maybe I shouldn't be confused but I am when it comes to the CRH6. :nuts:


The CRH designation apparently is used to cover all EMUs in China, so it's used more loosely than we'd like here. Plus I believe the 160km/h variant can actually go 200km/h max, so if it's running on an upgraded existing line it's considered HSR.

I think your second question is a good one as that's what I first thought too. As the article I quoted said, the first CRH6, the 200-250km variant, is basically a downgraded CRH2A to suit intercity traffic. That's fine since you can run a 200km/h train efficiently at 160km/h. Downgrade it again to make a 160-200km/h variant seems redundant to me. The only thing I can think of is that the 160km/h variant will be built at the Guangzhou Railway Group's Jiangmen City Xinhui CRH Manufacturing and Maintenance Base. This variant may be designed to be simpler to built for a new comer, also cheaper to purchase and run.


----------



## mmbt8550




----------



## mmbt8550




----------



## FM 2258

mmbt8550 said:


>


This must be the High Speed CRH6. The aisle looks really wide. 



hmmwv said:


> The CRH designation apparently is used to cover all EMUs in China, so it's used more loosely than we'd like here. Plus I believe the 160km/h variant can actually go 200km/h max, so if it's running on an upgraded existing line it's considered HSR.
> 
> I think your second question is a good one as that's what I first thought too. As the article I quoted said, the first CRH6, the 200-250km variant, is basically a downgraded CRH2A to suit intercity traffic. That's fine since you can run a 200km/h train efficiently at 160km/h. Downgrade it again to make a 160-200km/h variant seems redundant to me. The only thing I can think of is that the 160km/h variant will be built at the Guangzhou Railway Group's Jiangmen City Xinhui CRH Manufacturing and Maintenance Base. This variant may be designed to be simpler to built for a new comer, also cheaper to purchase and run.


Yeah, maybe downgrading lessens the cost of the slower train. Maybe it's like using an compact economy car instead of a Ferrari to go to work every day.


----------



## hmmwv

From people with inside information CRH6-200 is pretty much just a CRH2A with a modified body and domestic train networks so it'll still be pretty expensive, CRH6-160 OTOH is suppose to be much cheaper to build and run, it probably will only retain the CRH2A's chassis structure.


----------



## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> From people with inside information CRH6-200 is pretty much just a CRH2A with a modified body and domestic train networks so it'll still be pretty expensive, CRH6-160 OTOH is suppose to be much cheaper to build and run, it probably will only retain the CRH2A's chassis structure.


I see...can't wait to see these CRH6 and CRH500's running. The CRH380D's should be around the corner if they're not running already. My favorite look is the CRH3/CRH380B though.

CRH 380D(probably already posted somewhere in this thread):


----------



## foxmulder

380D is sure sexy. But still it is my #2


----------



## hmmwv

My favorite, strangely, are some of the pre-CRH EMUs, the CSR Puzheng Pioneer, for example. I like the reserved look of those models.


----------



## shree711

China's 500 km/h train is the sexiest train I've ever seen.


----------



## Silly_Walks

shree711 said:


> China's 500 km/h train is the sexiest train I've ever seen.


You have a weird concept of sexy :lol:


----------



## foxmulder

The second I saw the model of that train, this pupped up to my mind:


----------



## big-dog

*
Zefiro 250NG included in revised high speed train contract*


> 05 September 2012
> 
> CHINA: After reviewing its operational strategy, the Ministry of Railways has issued a variation order to its 2009 contract under which the Bombardier Sifang (Qingdao) Transportation joint venture was to supply 20 eight-car and 60 16-car high speed trainsets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The number of 380 km/h trainsets has now been reduced, and more 250 km/h trains ordered with the aim of increasing operational flexibility.
> 
> The contract will now cover the supply of:
> 
> 
> 70 eight-car Zefiro 380 trains, with a top speed of 380 km/h.
> 46 Zefiro 250 trains.
> 60 Zefiro 250NG trains.
> 
> Announcing the order on September 5, Bombardier said there would be no change to the original contract value of 27·4bn yuan.
> 
> The Zefiro 250 design is already in service, with 115 trainsets totalling 1 200 cars currently in operation.
> 
> The Zefiro 250NG will be a new product, an evolution of the Zefiro 250 'to meet the future demands of the Chinese rail market' and intended to enhance Bombardier's competitiveness. It will feature a new aluminium bodyshell to reduce weight compared with the stainless steel Zefiro 250, as well as enhanced traction systems, optimised aerodynamics and lower energy consumption.
> 
> 'China has a clear vision of the role the world's largest high speed rail network will play in supporting sustainable transportation for the 21st century', said Jianwei Zhang, President of Bombardier China. 'The country is selecting the most advanced technologies to build a network that offers not only high speed but also unprecedented operating efficiency, reliability and capacity.'


source


----------



## hmmwv

People have been speculating that the entire CRH380D project may be a limited number run due to the availability of the mature CRH380A/B. The D is mostly a Bombardier with minimum domestic input so it's originally conceived as an insurance policy to the largely domestic CRH380A. The number of trainsets is only reduced by 10 but capacity has been cut by half. That shows they want to maintain frequencies on 300km/h+ lines, but realized that demand fluctuates quite a bit.


----------



## foxmulder

This is a good sign for CRH-380A/Bs and possibly for the next generation model.


----------



## big-dog

Trains ready for Beijing-Shijiazhuang HSR opening










from weibo.com/chineserailways


----------



## big-dog

*536km Zheengzhou-Wuhan HSR opens today*

There will be 27 CRHs running on the new line: 17 CRH380ALs, 2 CRH2Cs, 4 CRH380BLs and 4 CRH3s.










(weibo.com)


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Great pictures *big-dog*, I like the CRH variety of trains.


----------



## foxmulder

big-dog said:


> *536km Zheengzhou-Wuhan HSR opens today*
> 
> There will be 27 CRHs running on the new line: 17 CRH380ALs, 2 CRH2Cs, 4 CRH380BLs and 4 CRH3s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (weibo.com)


Train porn. That simple. This requires a "18+" warning 


If anyone finds higher resolution, please share it!


----------



## hmmwv

CSR at InnoTrans 2012, pics are from InnoTrans.


----------



## hmmwv

Larger pic of CRH6-200 at CSR Qingdao Sifang.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Silver Swordsman said:


> The CRH380AL, obviously. It clocked at 489kmh or somewhere near there.


Obviously *NOT*.


The CRH380BL holds the record.

" during a subsequent test on January 10, 2011, a CRH380BL set reached a new record speed of 487.3 km/h (302.8 mph), breaking the previous record held by the CRH380A.[17]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH3


----------



## foxmulder

Silly_Walks said:


> Obviously *NOT*.
> 
> 
> The CRH380BL holds the record.
> 
> " during a subsequent test on January 10, 2011, a CRH380BL set reached a new record speed of 487.3 km/h (302.8 mph), breaking the previous record held by the CRH380A.[17]"
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH3


380A only reached 486.1km/h  what a loser...


----------



## Silly_Walks

foxmulder said:


> 380A only reached 486.1km/h  what a loser...



:lol:


----------



## Fan Railer

Silly_Walks said:


> Obviously *NOT*.
> 
> 
> The CRH380BL holds the record.
> 
> " during a subsequent test on January 10, 2011, a CRH380BL set reached a new record speed of 487.3 km/h (302.8 mph), breaking the previous record held by the CRH380A.[17]"
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH3


Keep in mind that the CRH380BL set that holds the record was a modified trainset with a higher motor:trailer ratio, while the CRH380AL set that has the second highest speed record is unmodified. I hold the unmodified trainset to be more legitimate, especially considering that the unmodified CRH380BL set only clocked 457 km/h.


----------



## foxmulder

Fan Railer said:


> Keep in mind that the CRH380BL set that holds the record was a modified trainset with a higher motor:trailer ratio, while the CRH380AL set that has the second highest speed record is unmodified. I hold the unmodified trainset to be more legitimate, especially considering that the unmodified CRH380BL set only clocked 457 km/h.


I agree, among the passenger carrying trains, 380AL is the fastest.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Fan Railer said:


> Keep in mind that the CRH380BL set that holds the record was a modified trainset with a higher motor:trailer ratio, while the CRH380AL set that has the second highest speed record is unmodified. I hold the unmodified trainset to be more legitimate, especially considering that the unmodified CRH380BL set only clocked 457 km/h.


I had no idea it was modified. Do you have a source for this?

And also an objective source that checked the CRH380AL to see if that wasn't secretly modified :lol:


----------



## foxmulder

Silly_Walks said:


> I had no idea it was modified. Do you have a source for this?
> 
> And also an objective source that checked the CRH380AL to see if that wasn't secretly modified :lol:


Links are under this very thread!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=68249791&postcount=380

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=68246905&postcount=375


----------



## hmmwv

Silly_Walks said:


> I had no idea it was modified. Do you have a source for this?
> 
> And also an objective source that checked the CRH380AL to see if that wasn't secretly modified :lol:


IMO the CRH380AL is by far the fastest commercial CRH train to date, the 487.3km/h speed that CRH380B achieved was by a "special test configuration" train, it's a weird shortened 8M4T train. CNR only did it so it's not completely overshadowed by CSR's achievements. 

In contrast the 486.1km/h record was set by a regular CRH380AL train (#6041) produced three month prior destined for commercial operations. It covered 220km in 34 minutes resulted in a stunning 388km/h average speed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Are any railways now completed and available for tests of a new speed record?

Such as Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou or Dalian-Shenyang-Harbin?


----------



## hmmwv

I think they can test it on Beijing-Zhengzhou line if they wish, but they only have a couple of months of window now since it's set to open by the end of 2012.


----------



## big-dog

CRHs resting under sunset (@Beijing South Station)










Photography by Luochunxiao


----------



## big-dog

CRH380A photos by 罗春晓


----------



## bearb

the first CRH6 is ready to go today
by 高铁见闻 @sina weibo
http://www.weibo.com/csrxcb?topnav=1&wvr=5&topsug=1



















after the trail




































mix and match


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Great pictures. For the first train I notice it says "CRH5A-4002" , what's going on with the name? Also, what is Cinova?


----------



## bearb

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Great pictures. For the first train I notice it says "CRH5A-4002" , what's going on with the name? Also, what is Cinova?


someone said CINOVA = China Intercity Nova?


----------



## hmmwv

I'm fairly certain it says CRH6A.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

bearb said:


> the first CRH6 ready to go today


What shall be the first railway line operating CRH6?


----------



## AlexNL

The interior of the CRH6 looks more like a regional train than an intercity or high speed train to me. Nevertheless it's quite a good looking train


----------



## Pansori

AlexNL said:


> The interior of the CRH6 looks more like a regional train than an intercity or high speed train to me. Nevertheless it's quite a good looking train


Is it a high-speed train? I though those are for short-distance commuter services with a top speed of 160km/h (or is it 200km/h)?


----------



## AlexNL

Pansori said:


> Is it a high-speed train?


It was my understanding that the CRH brand was intended for high speed trains, like ICE or TGV. Of course, I could be wrong


----------



## bearb

News update:

The purchased 24 CRH6 trains(up to 200km/h) by Guangdong Railway Construction and Investment Group would be for Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen Intercity Railway in 2014(for the opening of Guangzhou-Dongguan part, Dongguan-Shenzhen part is not yet to be construct). But they will be tested on Guangzhou-Zhuhai Intercity Railway first......

p.s. It will likely to be on 'C' services.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Woah....so is this going to replace the CRH1 service on the old Guangshen Railway? From what you're saying it looks like they're going to build a separate third line from the Guangshen Railway and Guangzhen'gang XLR.


----------



## bearb

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Woah....so is this going to replace the CRH1 service on the old Guangshen Railway? From what you're saying it looks like they're going to build a separate third line from the Guangshen Railway and Guangzhen'gang XLR.


not the old Guangshen Railway... It is the Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen Intercity Railway under construction (Suiguanshen Intercity Railway)... 
It is a bit complicated.
It is designed to go from Xintang(in Zengcheng)-Chang'an(in Dongguan) to Shenzhen Airport.
But in Xintang station, it connects with the old Guangshen Railway...
there will be trains from Guangzhou East to Shenzhen Airport.
and in the future, it connects with Guangzhou Airport as well...
so there will be services from Guangzhou Airport to Shenzhen Airport.
Also they are seeking the chance to extend it to Qianhai Mawan in Shenzhen..
Ideally this line is going from Guangzhou Airport to Qianhai Mawan, via west Dongguan and west Shenzhen along the coast.


----------



## hmmwv

bearb said:


> But for China, I think only G counts as Hi-speed Service.


Well D trains goes to 250km/h so it's a proper HSR by world standard, but in Chinese D only means EMU while G carries the actual "High" speed name.


----------



## bearb

hmmwv said:


> Well D trains goes to 250km/h so it's a proper HSR by world standard, but in Chinese D only means EMU while G carries the actual "High" speed name.


that was why i said 'for China'....


----------



## chornedsnorkack

bearb said:


> not the old Guangshen Railway... It is the Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen Intercity Railway under construction (Suiguanshen Intercity Railway)...
> It is a bit complicated.
> It is designed to go from Xintang(in Zengcheng)-Chang'an(in Dongguan) to Shenzhen Airport.
> But in Xintang station, it connects with the old Guangshen Railway...
> there will be trains from Guangzhou East to Shenzhen Airport.
> and in the future, it connects with Guangzhou Airport as well...
> so there will be services from Guangzhou Airport to Shenzhen Airport.
> Also they are seeking the chance to extend it to Qianhai Mawan in Shenzhen..
> Ideally this line is going from Guangzhou Airport to Qianhai Mawan, via west Dongguan and west Shenzhen along the coast.


Qianhai Mawan?

Does it connect to Guangzhou-Shenzhen High Speed Railway anywhere?


----------



## FM 2258

bearb said:


> not the old Guangshen Railway... It is the Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen Intercity Railway under construction (Suiguanshen Intercity Railway)...
> It is a bit complicated.
> It is designed to go from Xintang(in Zengcheng)-Chang'an(in Dongguan) to Shenzhen Airport.
> But in Xintang station, it connects with the old Guangshen Railway...
> there will be trains from Guangzhou East to Shenzhen Airport.
> and in the future, it connects with Guangzhou Airport as well...
> so there will be services from Guangzhou Airport to Shenzhen Airport.
> Also they are seeking the chance to extend it to Qianhai Mawan in Shenzhen..
> Ideally this line is going from Guangzhou Airport to Qianhai Mawan, via west Dongguan and west Shenzhen along the coast.


Digging up some news on Google it looks like China is working on multiple high speed local lines. Very interesting, I'll probably post some questions in the China High Speed Rail thread since this topic is better suited for that. Thanks for the info. 

As for the train letters I understood it to be 

D = at least 200km/h
C, G = at least 300 km/h (or more than 200km/h?)


----------



## bearb

chornedsnorkack said:


> Qianhai Mawan?
> 
> Does it connect to Guangzhou-Shenzhen High Speed Railway anywhere?


nope :nuts:


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> Digging up some news on Google it looks like China is working on multiple high speed local lines. Very interesting, I'll probably post some questions in the China High Speed Rail thread since this topic is better suited for that. Thanks for the info.
> 
> As for the train letters I understood it to be
> 
> D = at least 200km/h
> C, G = at least 300 km/h (or more than 200km/h?)


There are 160km/h D trains running on upgraded conventional lines. C letters are no long in use since most have been converted to G trains (i.e. Beijing-Tianjin, Shanghai-Nanjing). Right now G means >300km/h, everything else is D.


----------



## makita09

Pansori said:


> And what are other definitions (i'm not talking US)? What is Chinese definition? Japanese? Korean?


I don't know thats why I said 200km/h isn't _generally_ seen as high speed. Then you claimed an official definition to which I pointed out that that is only official in the EU. Keep up.


----------



## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> There are 160km/h D trains running on upgraded conventional lines. C letters are no long in use since most have been converted to G trains (i.e. Beijing-Tianjin, Shanghai-Nanjing). Right now G means >300km/h, everything else is D.


I saw some videos on Youtube with CRH trains running on the conventional Shanghai-Nanjing railway in 2010 and it didn't seem to hit 200km/h that much. I'm not really sure but this is what I felt seeing the video. Kinda disappointing though since I thought D meant a guaranteed 200km/h speed at some portion of the trip. I guess that means a non-CRH train could get a D classification? 

D5406 Suzhou -> Wuxi


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> I saw some videos on Youtube with CRH trains running on the conventional Shanghai-Nanjing railway in 2010 and it didn't seem to hit 200km/h that much. I'm not really sure but this is what I felt seeing the video. Kinda disappointing though since I thought D meant a guaranteed 200km/h speed at some portion of the trip. I guess that means a non-CRH train could get a D classification?


I'm actually confused by your question. The upgraded Shanghai-Nanjing conventional line does allow 200km/h travel, even up to 250km/h near Anting, and that's back in 2007 when the service first started. A none CRH train will not get a D designation because D and G are reserved for CRH trains. CRH and National Rail (China Rail, 国铁) are kind of two different branches of MOR, no matter how fast the conventional passengers train goes it will still only get a Z, K, or T designation.


----------



## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> I'm actually confused by your question. The upgraded Shanghai-Nanjing conventional line does allow 200km/h travel, even up to 250km/h near Anting, and that's back in 2007 when the service first started. A none CRH train will not get a D designation because D and G are reserved for CRH trains. CRH and National Rail (China Rail, 国铁) are kind of two different branches of MOR, no matter how fast the conventional passengers train goes it will still only get a Z, K, or T designation.


You mentioned that D trains could have a maximum speed of 160km/h when I thought D trains always run at least 200km/h. That's where I got confused about the D classification since high speed by international standards is 200km/h. 

There is a picture of the new 25T cars that show a speed of 160km/h you posted in the other thread so I thought those would get the D classification for running 160km/h. 

Anyway, I just got confused about what D is supposed to represent. Didn't know that D could represent slower than "high speed" trips.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> You mentioned that D trains could have a maximum speed of 160km/h when I thought D trains always run at least 200km/h. That's where I got confused about the D classification since high speed by international standards is 200km/h.
> 
> There is a picture of the new 25T cars that show a speed of 160km/h you posted in the other thread so I thought those would get the D classification for running 160km/h.
> 
> Anyway, I just got confused about what D is supposed to represent. Didn't know that D could represent slower than "high speed" trips.


Yeah speed is not strictly related to the CRH brand, it's nothing but a brand, D means EMU, not necessarily high speed. Even if the 25T runs 250km/h pulled by a crazily tuned HXD1 as long as it's under China Rail it's still not a CRH service and will not get a D or G designation.


----------



## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> Yeah speed is not strictly related to the CRH brand, it's nothing but a brand, D means EMU, not necessarily high speed. Even if the 25T runs 250km/h pulled by a crazily tuned HXD1 as long as it's under China Rail it's still not a CRH service and will not get a D or G designation.


Wow, thanks for clearing this up for me. They could slap a CRH sticker on the train but I doubt they would do that...haha.


----------



## greenlion

Hong Kong Version of CRH380A


----------



## saiho

greenlion said:


> Hong Kong Version of CRH380A


DAT... TRAIN
:nuts:


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

greenlion said:


> Hong Kong Version of CRH380A


OMFG :drools:

Just jizzed in my pants...


----------



## hmmwv

Livery goes a long way to make a train look better, very nice!


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Oh dear... this is too much! TOO MUCH!!!


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> Is this a Velaro train? Why this design when the CRH1, CRH2, CRH5 and CRH6 are already available for "slower" high speed rail?


Despite the number it more resembles the CRH5 AKA New Pendolino.

Those are high capacity intercity commuter trains, designed for standing passengers and frequent stops. CSR has the CRH6 now and CNR must be eager to come up with a competing product, hence this one.


----------



## Sopomon

hmmwv said:


> With trunk lines opening one by one they are running out of lines that can facilitate its record breaking run.
> 
> 
> Not really, it's just China's HSR lines are still way, way under used. Most of the lines are not running at nearly the frequency of the Japanese.


Curious, and OT, but in that case, I wonder how many 700 and N700 sets JR central has, in order to have that 6 min departure interval on the Tokaido line


----------



## Silly_Walks

greenlion said:


> CRH3A


I don't get it... there is already a CRH3A... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH3

Why do they make a completely different train with the same designation?


----------



## greenlion

Silly_Walks said:


> I don't get it... there is already a CRH3A... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH3
> 
> Why do they make a completely different train with the same designation?


read the wikipedia link you posted above, on section CRH3C


----------



## Silly_Walks

greenlion said:


> read the wikipedia link you posted above, on section CRH3C


Yes, and still very confusing. This new CRH3A has nothing to do with the old CRH3, or does it?


----------



## Attus

This Chinese trainset numbering system (if you can call it a 'system' any way) is crazy


----------



## hmmwv

Silly_Walks said:


> Yes, and still very confusing. This new CRH3A has nothing to do with the old CRH3, or does it?


I'm pretty sure it's the commuter version of CRH5 instead of CRH3, they are both CNR product anyway.


----------



## Galactic

Attus said:


> This Chinese trainset numbering system (if you can call it a 'system' any way) is crazy


I agree, it contains a lot of illogicalities. For instance, CRH1B and CRH2B are 16-car sets, so you would expect CRH380B to be one too. However, the naming convention was changed and in newer series 16-car sets are denoted with the letter L. The new Alstom-derivative is named CRH3A, even though the CRH5 family already contains a New Pendolino variant.



Code:


CRH1 family
-----------

Bombardier Regina
CRH1A     220-250 km/h   8 cars        2007
CRH1B     250 km/h       16 cars       2009

Bombardier Zefiro
CRH1E     250 km/h       16 cars, sl.   2009
CRH380D   380 km/h       8 cars        2013?
CRH380DL  380 km/h       16 cars       -

CRH2 family
-----------

Shinkansen
CRH2A     250 km/h       8 cars        2007
CRH2B     250 km/h       16 cars       2008
CRH2E     250 km/h       16 cars, sl.  2008

Original
CRH2C     300-350 km/h   8 cars        2008
CRH380A   380 km/h       8 cars        2010
CRH380AL  380 km/h       16 cars       2011?

CRH3 family
-----------

Siemens Velaro
CRH3C     350 km/h       8 cars        2008
CRH380B   380 km/h       8 cars        ?
CRH380BL  380 km/h       16 cars       2011
CRH380CL  380 km/h       16 cars       ?

Alstom New Pendolino
CRH3A-160 160 km/h       8 cars        ?
CRH3A-200 200 km/h       8 cars        ?
CRH3A-250 250 km/h       8 cars        ?

CRH5 family
-----------

Alstom New Pendolino
CRH5A     250 km/h       8 cars        2007

CRH 6 family
------------

Original
CRH6-160  180 km/h       8 cars        2013?
CRH6-200  250 km/h       8 cars        2013?


----------



## big-dog

MOR logo added to new CRH trains










a new rendering with MOR logo










--weibo.com


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I like it, I used to wonder why that symbol was absent from CRH trains.


----------



## big-dog

CRH380D (Zefiro) on testing run










by 高铁见闻


----------



## big-dog

CRH 380C manufacturing










by 高铁见闻


----------



## hmmwv

For those who can't see the above pics.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

hmmwv said:


> For those who can't see the above pics.


Ironic, since yours don't appear for me.


----------



## hmmwv

Silver Swordsman said:


> Ironic, since yours don't appear for me.


Yeah Sina Weibo sometimes switches servers, yesterday their ww2 server wasn't working but ww4 was, today it's the opposite. :bash:


----------



## Claude_Chan

CRH is very cool.But I like ND5 and HXD1 best.


----------



## big-dog

CRH's home










by Luo Chunxiao


----------



## hmmwv

^^ This is the Beijing EMU Branch, one of the largest CRH maintenance yard in northern China, located near Beijing.


----------



## big-dog

I don't know if this was posted before: a nice CRH380A video

link

by CSR (China South Railway Co. Ltd.


----------



## 1772

What is the gauge of the CRH? It looks enormous.


----------



## Peloso

Silver Swordsman said:


> How many engineers and how many people a country has is irrelevant to how fast components wear down and need replacing. A large number of engineers means one can tackle technological challenges faster (like catching up 40+ years of technology in five years), but it does not grant China a "cheat code" for having to replace wheels, rails, and wires without cost.
> 
> Unless China can find a new kind of technology blah blah


All of this may be true but it has nothing to do with Pansori's quote my comment was directed at.


----------



## Silly_Walks

makita09 said:


> The germans or dutch have developed a metal that resists the type of wear that leads to stress fractures, increasing longevity 3-fold and reducing the need re-grind the railhead. I don't remember much detail - it was an article in rail professional or something.
> 
> Basically, with current materials 320km/h seems an economic maximum, but the future will not have todays materials, so there is no such limit necessarily in the future.


But then you are still left with the exponentially increasing energy consumption at higher speeds.


----------



## hmmwv

joseph1951 said:


> 1-
> That's right.
> 
> 2-
> 320km/h on the new section Paris Gare de l'Est Strasbourg. 270-300 km/h in the other lines.
> 
> The new HSL section Tours - Bordeaux will be built for 350 km/h but, initially, the top commercial speed will be limited to 320 km/h.
> 
> A couple of yers ago Mr Pepys, CEO of SNCF stated pubblicly in London that the problem is NOT building trains capable of 400 km/h in commercial revenue, but the problem is to run these trains *economically* at 400 km/h.
> 
> Mr Pepys wants a 360-400 km/h per hour VHS train capable of carryng more passengers than the TGV Duplex with a pax/weight ratio of 1 pax/400 kg of train, and capable of running at 360-400 km/h with an energy consumption of a TGV Duplex running _only_ at 300 km/h.
> 
> So far, in Europe, only the Talgo Avril 380 series G4 seems, second generation, is capable of achieving some of these goals. But this trains is still on the drawing board.
> 
> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo_AVRIL
> 
> 
> Also these Very High Speed trains should be very gently on the infrastructure.
> 
> 
> At present these technical specifications are not been achieved. However, if the cost of running trains at 360 - 400 + km/h is not important, nobody will prevent the Chinese from running trains on commercial services at 360 - 400+ km/h.
> 
> Personally I suspect that in the future (2020?), in Europe, but only on a limited amount of HS lines, there will be *some trains *running at 350 -380 km/h.
> 
> 
> China is very different from Europe and 350-380+ km/h runnings will be more jusitified, but non necessarily in the next couple of years.


Very good information about the TGV, I think CRH initially wanted the train to run at 380km/h mainly to attract customers from the airline industry, after all being able to travel from Beijing to Shanghai is great marketing. However now it's proven that the network is already well utilized and MOR doesn't have to go out of its ways to attract passengers. Most of the passengers on the line do not ride end to end, so it's a bit pointless to require 380km/h speed, a better time table with better coverage of stops is a better way to serve more people. I do see a market for those trains though, for example the new Urumqi-Lanzhou line where the train passes hundreds of kilometers of empty deserts without having to stop. On lines such as Beijing-Shanghai or Beijing-Guangzhou I think it's doable to run a very limited number of almost direct trains daily with 380km/h speed to serve people who really need to be there fast.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Silly_Walks said:


> But then you are still left with the exponentially increasing energy consumption at higher speeds.


False. The energy consumption grows with square of speed, not exponentially.


----------



## makita09

^^ Epic math fail.

Silly_Walks - yes energy consumption increases, but not to the extent that it alone would make the increased speed uneconomical. 300 vs 350km/h = less than 20% increase in energy cost. This will equate to an overall increase of less than 10% operational cost, easily absorbed by fares justified by the time saving.


----------



## Silly_Walks

chornedsnorkack said:


> False. The energy consumption grows with square of speed, not exponentially.


lol yeah that's the one i meant. Not epic math fail, epic typing fail.


----------



## makita09

Lol, doesn't really matter, point is it isn't linear, which was your point.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

makita09 said:


> ^^ Epic math fail.
> 
> Silly_Walks - yes energy consumption increases, but not to the extent that it alone would make the increased speed uneconomical. 300 vs 350km/h = less than 20% increase in energy cost.


No. The square of speed is increased by 36 %.


----------



## makita09

OK, embarrassed - Will not try to do such arithmetic in my head from now on.....

So that would be around 15-20% increase in overall cost then, hmmmm.


----------



## Silly_Walks

makita09 said:


> OK, embarrassed - Will not try to do such arithmetic in my head from now on.....
> 
> So that would be around 15-20% increase in overall cost then, hmmmm.


Maybe some more humility and respect towards other forummers will allow you to increase the positive influence your presence has here :lol:


----------



## PredyGr

For those who are interested for the relation between speed and operating costs, for rail services, i suggest you to visit UIC website. There you can find some pretty interesting reports in pdf format on the above mentioned topic and on energy consumption and emissions in high speed rail operations.


----------



## joseph1951

makita09 said:


> OK, embarrassed - Will not try to do such arithmetic in my head from now on.....
> 1-
> *So that would be around 15-20% increase in overall cost then, hmmmm*.


1-
Not necessarily so. There is an increase in energy consumption, and also an increase in wear and tear, both of the rolling stock and of the infrastructure....

Also, the Chinese HSTs' are quite heavy, and the ratio pax/weight of the trains is about 1pax/ 0,9 tons, whilst the TGV duplex is about 1 pax/0,7 ton.

According to the Experts in the field, for the new genearation of HSTs this pax to weight ratio has to go further down, at around 1 pax/0,4 t.

In building a HSTs network China has done wonders. But* the HSTs network is only part of the equation*: China has also to improve its conventional rail network, and I am sure that the Chinese Government hasn't forgotten this task.

In order to transport efficiently, rapidly and economically almost 1,5 billion people there is a need for a modern network of metroplitan lines , and a network of conventional lines (160-200 km/h) for regional and long distance passenger and freight trains *as well as* a need for High Speed lines and trains.

I am sure that if they want, and if energy consuption is not a problem, the Chinese *can* technically run trains at 350-400 kph, but I am not sure that, at the moment, this is heir top priority.

Anyway: what's wrong with running HSTs at "only" 300-320 km/h?


In my opinon, 300-320 kmph are quite respectable top speeds.


----------



## China Hand

joseph1951 said:


> But* the HSTs network is only part of the equation*: China has also to improve its conventional rail network, and I am sure that the Chinese Government hasn't forgotten this task.
> 
> In order to transport efficiently, rapidly and economically almost 1,5 billion people there is a need for a modern network of metropolitan lines , and a network of conventional lines (160-200 km/h) for regional and long distance passenger and freight trains *as well as* a need for High Speed lines and trains.


I took several rides the past 2 weeks and I was wondering how to increase the conventional line capacity in China. 16 to 20 car trains are the current maximum. To increase pax would require lengthening trains to 24/32 cars or loading them as double decker elevators are loaded or increasing the number of trains. To do that would require a complete re-write of the entire grid schedule, something that would take years and a super computer to accomplish.

If they upgrade ALL of the conventional lines to (160-200 km/h) that will require a complete refit of 40,000 km of track as well as an overhaul of most of the existing legacy trainsets. That would number 19,431 locomotives and 52,130 passenger coaches to increase the whole system to that speed, but freight cars number 623,000 and some are obviously from the early 20th C. Combined lines with freight would still experience a bottleneck.

The N, K and L trains often average 66 to 72 kph, a speed 
chosen for maximum fuel efficiency in a society with lots of spare time and little money. Offering cheap transport to those who need it is great, but those speeds are literally from the 19th C. and need to be greatly improved. If the cheapest seats on N, K or L sets could be on trains traveling at an average of 140+kph (a clean double) then throughput could be increased.

This will all cost hundred's of billions more.


----------



## makita09

Silly_Walks said:


> Maybe some more humility and respect towards other forummers will allow you to increase the positive influence your presence has here :lol:


Respect? Only if you all pass a logic test or can prove you are robots from the future 

I am sure it will be possible to get to 350km/h - France does 320km/h, and thats with clunky power cars and heavy axle weights (albeit far few axle passes).

But yes I agree 300km/h is perfectly good speed.


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## Silver Swordsman

joseph1951 said:


> 1-
> 
> Also, the Chinese HSTs' are quite heavy, and the ratio pax/weight of the trains is about 1pax/ 0,9 tons, whilst the TGV duplex is about 1 pax/0,7 ton.
> 
> 
> In building a HSTs network China has done wonders. But* the HSTs network is only part of the equation*: China has also to improve its conventional rail network, and I am sure that the Chinese Government hasn't forgotten this task.


How are the Chinese HSTs heavier than the TGV Duplex? Modern CRH380 trainsets are specifically designed to be lightweight to make 380 km/h economically feasible; unless we're focusing on the fact that CRH trains are EMUs while the Duplex is a PP model. 

It seems that China has done its homework on wear and tear, and the only reason for the slowdown is electric consumption; I'd say that the 300km/h speed cap will remain until China finishes upgrading its electrical grid.


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## Sopomon

Silver Swordsman said:


> How are the Chinese HSTs heavier than the TGV Duplex?


Well the TGV carriages themselves are almost flimsily light. The weight of the locomotives, when averaged over the number of seats simply works out to ebe less than a CRH EMU.

What 's important is which one,

380A, a Shinkansen derivative is likely to be the lightest (owing to the extremely light nature of Shinkansen products as a whole (I do believe they have the world's lowest axle weight for an HST)), whereas the 380B will probably weigh a little more.


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## loefet

The weight of the train isn't really a good measurement to the wear of the track.
What you should be looking at is axle load, since it relates a lot more to the track wear.
High axle load means more, low gives less wear. 

So even if the cars on a TGV are really light they still only have 2 wheels to distribute the weight on, which makes it so that they have a high axle load.
Shinkansen trains and their derivatives, are built to be as light, but have more axles to distribute the weight on so they will cause less track damage than a TGV, no matter how you look at it.


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## AlexNL

A Thalys power car weighs in at 68 tonnes (68,000 kg). A power car has 4 axles (Bo'Bo'), meaning that the axle load is 17 tonnes. 

The intermediate coaches weigh 244 tonnes (30,5 t/car), as there are 18 axles (9* Bo') supporting those coaches this means the average axle load for the coaches is 13.6 t per axle.


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## loefet

^^ Is that intermediate coaches weight loaded or empty?
Most likely empty, an N700 Shinkansen train have a loaded axle load of just 11.2 tonnes.
So a Shinkansen train does a lot less damage on the track.


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## PredyGr

The unsprung mass has stronger effect on the deterioration of track geometry than the axle load. If i remember correctly the effect is 10x compared to that of the axle load. 

So i think the gap between PP and EMU is larger, from track friendliness point of view.

Of course the design parameters of the bogie affect the interaction between rail and wheel, so it's not an easy task to find which trainset is more gentle to the track than the other.


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## China Hand

joseph1951 said:


> To make it possible to travel more economically at speed above 300-320 km/h you t make the train lighter and more powerful , with a smaller frontal section (i.e: Talgo Avril 380 , which is still on the drawing boards); and, hopefully it will be possible to attain 380 km/h commercial speed, but these services will be limited only to some lines.
> 
> One will have to build a train carrying 1 pax for every 500kg of weight of the train and being capable of traveling at 380 km/h consuming only 20 ~30% more than a conventional HS train traveling at 300 km/h.
> 
> But..... that's it.


What about narrowing the carriage and EMU, not the gauge, to make the train seat only 3 across? Would this reduce wind-resistance along the carriages, make the train lighter, more able to sustain 400kph economically? Can differential wheels solve osciallations using existing train-sets and railway bed?


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## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> What about narrowing the carriage and EMU, not the gauge, to make the train seat only 3 across? Would this reduce wind-resistance along the carriages, make the train lighter,


It would reduce weight and wind resistance per carriage. But the weight and wind resistance per seat would be increased.


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## joseph1951

China Hand said:


> What about narrowing the carriage and EMU, not the gauge, to make the train seat only 3 across? Would this reduce wind-resistance along the carriages, make the train lighter, more able to sustain 400kph economically? Can differential wheels solve osciallations using existing train-sets and railway bed?


You cannot narrow the rail gauge (i.e the distance between the two rails which in China has been build in standard gauge) but you can certainly narrow the width and the height of train. 

Todays chinese HSTs are 3,38 m wide whilst continental european trains are 2,92 m wide. 

The frontal design (the "nose") is important for High speed but tup to a certain points. To this effect and to reduce the sonic boom caused by HSTs while entering in a tunnel the Japanese have tried everything.

However at very high speed the frontal cross section of the train count only for about 25% -30% of the air resistance. The other 70-75% of air restance is produced by gap between carriages , turbulence caused by the wheels , and also the lenght of the train, etc. 

So far the most promising new generation of Very High Speed trains seems to be the Talgo Avril 380 serieries G4.

It is made of 6 articulated and motorised carriages + 6 talgo monoaxial carriages. The Talgo Avril 380 non motorises carriages are 2,9m high and 2. 9 m wide (but can also be 3,2m wide, accordfing to the internal layout of 3+2 seating). 

A 200 m long Talgo Avril 380 series G4 will trasport about 700 passengers in tourist configuration (on a single deck). Its weight will be about *315 tons *and the train will develop between *10.000 and 12.000 kW *of power, according to the client specifications. (Up to 38 kw/t)

In the narrow version the Talgo Avril 380 series G4 intermediate carriages will be only 2,9 high and 2,9 wide therefore will have a surface of 8,4 square meters. THe CRHs are about 3,28-3,38 m wide and about 3.8 ~ 4 m in height,. therefore their frontal sections are the region of 12~13 m2.

Unfortunately the Talgo Avril 380, series G4 is still on the drawing board
, and on the drawing board every train looks good......

But at 380 km/h the Talgo Avril 380 G4 series *will consume only 22-25% less energy that its competitors* travelling at the same speed! 

However, the Spanish Talgo Avril 380, series G4 it will carry 1 pax for every 0,4 ton of train, whilst the Chinese Zefiro 380 will carry 1 pax/0,9 ton. The 16 carriages Zefiro 380 on 16 car fomation (400m) will be *1088* tons and will carry 1336 pax, whislt the 400m Talgo 380 Series G4 will carry up 1400 pax in turist seating and will weigh *630* tons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Zefiro



Some other links:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo_AVRIL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo_AVRIL

The 360-380 km/h runs are useful only to make 1000 km journey under 3hours without intermediate stops, assuming that one has a 1000 km stretch of a high speed line in which *the train can run constantly *at 360-380.

In this case if you have a 1000 km long stretch of line you will have:
at 360 km/h speed = 166,6 minutes + acceleration and deceleratin times
at 350/h km speed = 172,4 minutes + acceleration and deceleration times
at 320 km speed 188,6 minutes + acceleration and deceleration times.
at 300 km/h speed 200 minutes + acceleration and deceleration times.

China might build some very long stretches of HSL in which you will have 2000-3000 kms of lines in which you could run some trains constantly at 350-380 km/h but - equally - you could have some very long HSLs (2000-5000 km long ) very suited for night train (with compartments with berths and beds) running at speed between 250- and 300 km/h.

For day trips, and from town centre to town centre the train is fatser that the plan only if 1000-1200 km are made in 3- 4 hours. 

A high speed rail network is only part of the rail system of a nation. Rail is also good for carryng long distance passenger overnight , for intercity travelling, for short distances and for mass transit system in town and metropolis (undergoud/metro systems).

A rail system can also be extremely useful to carry over short and very long distances staple products and heavy goods, such as timber, iron, coal, wheat.... 
For the above reasons MOR is building lines for different uses and different commercial speeds: 160-200-250 300 and 350+ km/h.


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## hmmwv

foxmulder said:


> You are interpreting the data wrong. It is definitely not the consequence. A typical Chinese passenger is a student or worker traveling from a large city to his home town houndreds kms away. It is apple and oranges. Japanese data is skewed for two reasons and so is really not suitable to compare it to China. 1) It includes commuter rail numbers 2) distances in Japan are shorter because of the size of the country.
> 
> Commuter rail type of network with stations every 10km is a terrible idea for intercity travel. Commuter rail is to commute to your job every day from suburbs or close towns to a big city, they cannot substitute for intercity travel.


You are generally right in the traditional sense of the difference between "intericty" and "suburban commuter" trains. I think the confusion was initially caused by MOR for not being able to make their mind. Nowadays in China Intercity more or less means commuter train, because they run around large metropolitan areas linking satellite towns. The old intercity names such as Shanghai-Nanjing and Beijing-Tianjin is a thing of the past, the intercity name will not be used for major lines linking major cities.


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## chornedsnorkack

joseph1951 said:


> You cannot narrow the rail gauge (i.e the distance between the two rails which in China has been build in standard gauge) but you can certainly narrow the width and the height of train.


Causing problems like a hole between carriage floor and station platform


joseph1951 said:


> The 360-380 km/h runs are useful only to make 1000 km journey under 3hours without intermediate stops, assuming that one has a 1000 km stretch of a high speed line in which *the train can run constantly *at 360-380.
> 
> In this case if you have a 1000 km long stretch of line you will have:
> at 360 km/h speed = 166,6 minutes + acceleration and deceleratin times
> at 350/h km speed = 172,4 minutes + acceleration and deceleration times
> at 320 km speed 188,6 minutes + acceleration and deceleration times.
> at 300 km/h speed 200 minutes + acceleration and deceleration times.


Actual numbers:
Beijing-Shanghai - 1318 km, with at least 1 stop (Nanjing South)
at 300 km/h - 4 hours 24 minutes + 2 minutes dwell at Nanjing South +2x acceleration and deceleration gives 4:48, so 22 minutes on 2x acceleration and deceleration (or curves/limited speed stretches?)
promised at 380 km/h - 3 hours 28 minutes + unspecified dwell time + 2x acceleration and deceleration totalling 3:59, so 31 minutes on acceleration, deceleration and dwell time.


joseph1951 said:


> China might build some very long stretches of HSL in which you will have 2000-3000 kms of lines in which you could run some trains constantly at 350-380 km/h


Like the 2206 km Beijing-Shenzhen.
Wuhan-Guangzhou is known to be suitable for 350 km/h and was run at that speed before First Slowdown Campaign. What is the design quality of Beijing-Wuhan?


joseph1951 said:


> but - equally - you could have some very long HSLs (2000-5000 km long ) very suited for night train (with compartments with berths and beds) running at speed between 250- and 300 km/h.


China is not quite that big, at least counting the major centres. Longest train now seems to be 4684 km Guangzhou-Urumqi. High speed lines tend to be 5...10% shorter than the parallel low speed lines due to cutting some corners. Sure, you can extend direct trains even further, but I am not quite sure whether the demand from Kashgar justifies high speed overnight direct trains Kashgar-Guangzhou or beyond. (Unless a Khunjerab Base Tunnel were dug, then a direct train Beijing-Islamabad-Karachi may exceed 5000 km).

If, say, Beijing-Guangzhou high speed line were opened for overnight trains, should these run at 300 km/h (7:59 with limited stops), or be slowed to 250 km/h?


joseph1951 said:


> For day trips, and from town centre to town centre the train is fatser that the plan only if 1000-1200 km are made in 3- 4 hours.


I have seen some arguments here whether the applicable number in China is 4 or 5 hours.


----------



## joseph1951

chornedsnorkack said:


> Causing problems like a hole between carriage floor and station platform
> 
> Actual numbers:
> 1-
> Beijing-Shanghai - 1318 km, with at least 1 stop (Nanjing South)
> at 300 km/h - *4 hours 24 minutes *+ 2 minutes dwell at Nanjing South +2x acceleration and deceleration gives *4:48*, so 22 minutes on 2x acceleration and deceleration (or curves/limited speed stretches?)
> promised at 380 km/h -* 3 hours 28 minutes *+ unspecified dwell time + 2x acceleration and deceleration totalling *3:59*, so 31 minutes on acceleration, deceleration and dwell time.
> 
> Like the 2206 km Beijing-Shenzhen.
> Wuhan-Guangzhou is known to be suitable for 350 km/h and was run at that speed before First Slowdown Campaign. What is the design quality of Beijing-Wuhan?
> 
> 2-
> China is not quite that big, at least counting the major centres. Longest train now seems to be* 4684 km Guangzhou-Urumqi.* High speed lines tend to be 5...10% shorter than the parallel low speed lines due to cutting some corners. Sure, you can extend direct trains even further, but I am not quite sure whether the demand from Kashgar justifies high speed overnight direct trains Kashgar-Guangzhou or beyond. (Unless a Khunjerab Base Tunnel were dug, then a direct train Beijing-Islamabad-Karachi may exceed 5000 km).
> 3-
> If, say, Beijing-Guangzhou high speed line were opened for overnight trains, should these run at 300 km/h *(7:59 with limited stops*), or be slowed to 250 km/h?
> 
> 4-
> I have seen some arguments here whether the applicable number in China is 4 or 5 hours.


1-
So running at 380 instead of 300 you might save almost 1 hour at a big cost +40 ~ 60% increase in energy halve the life of the train and double the maintenance of the train and of tracks. Is it work it? 

2-
Well, 4684 km between Guangzhou-Urumqi are in the bracket of the 2000-5000 km distances I mentioned.

I think that the reason for a night train is to be able to have a dinner , relax and then sleep at leat -7 -8 hours during the night. I consider a good night train a Hotel on wheels. 7hours a 59 minutes is too short as a good night journey . You mightr make a 9-10 hours journey. People will sleep longer on the train and the trian will use less energy.

On a good night train one can confortably travel 12-13 hours and, in running at 300 km/h you can cover very long distances. (3200- 3400 km, if the train make several stops) 

It could be a partial alternative to a day trip by aeroplane. 

4-
Yes when I wrote that I had France SNCF theory in mind. Indeed some European HSTs have journey times up to 7~10 hours


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## China Hand

joseph1951 said:


> For day trips, and from town centre to town centre the train is faster than aircraft plan only if 1000-1200 km are made in 3- 4 hours.


The Beijing-Shanghai, Shanghai-Chengdu/Kunming, Beijing-Guangzhou and Xian-Ulumuqi lines are the prime candidates for this.

I make journeys of 1250 km by plane in a time of about 5.5 to 6.5 hours door to door, depending on delays and arriving too early for a meal, etc. That's about avg for a long distance bus ride of 450 to 550 kms. By fast train I save about an hour of extra time, no need to arrive early, less checkin, don't need to preboard 30minute before departure, train stations are in the city and not kms away on the outskirts, etc.

My rough calculation, for China, is that if the trip is 1300+ km then fly. If there is a CRH on the route, take the ZHGT. If the CRH is NOT on that route then flying is best (unless you like the adventure and have two days to spend).

Flying from Xian to Shenzhen is less expensive than the train and takes half the time. You can be in Hong Kong in 6 hours once you leave your hotel in Xian, arrive in Shenzhen, take the airport CRH into town, hop on the subway, go through customs and ride the MRT. It only makes sense once you get to Wuhan and points south to train it. The G824/G821 takes 9.5 hours to get to Shenzhen. Then another hour to get to XianBei and another hour to take the MRT into HK. You are up to 11 hours or more and cheap fares of 1000 to 2000 r/t can be found if you look for them.

CRH is often MORE expensive (Business and Special Class definitely) but the leg room and casual pace make up for this and if you get into Business or Special Class you can recline your seat, sleep, and get a free meal with a tv at your seat. This class is roughly the equivalent of 1st Class on an international flight with sleeping pods. It is pricey, though. 2,500 +/- on routes that have this class.



> A rail system can also be extremely useful to carry over short and very long distances staple products and heavy goods, such as timber, iron, coal, wheat....
> For the above reasons MOR is building lines for different uses and different commercial speeds: 160-200-250 300 and 350+ km/h.


If they kept the existing conventional rail and upgraded it all to 250, this would increase capacity for the more frequent stops and the cheaper lines. That would be even MORE impressive - to upgrade the entire nation to 200/250 everywhere at all of those small rural stations.

But, again, most of those trains spend all night chugging along behind a freight train at 65-80kph. To utilise that speed a solution to get around the freight will need to be found.


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## chornedsnorkack

joseph1951 said:


> 1-
> So running at 380 instead of 300 you might save almost 1 hour at a big cost +40 ~ 60% increase in energy halve the life of the train and double the maintenance of the train and of tracks. Is it work it?


Wuhan-Guangzhou South
4 express trains daily, single stop at Changsha, travel times 3:39 and 3:41, departure times 9:00, 9:58, 13:51 and 14:20
All other G trains take at least 4:03.

When Wuhan-Guangzhou opened in 2009-2010, there was a large decrease in the number of air passengers.

Beijing-Shanghai
8 express trains daily, 1 or 2 stops, travel times 4:48 and 4:55 respectively. Regular hourly departures each sharp hour from 8 to 11 and 14 to 17.

There has been no noticeable effect to air passenger numbers.

If the time between 4:55 and 4:03 is a range to which passengers are sensitive... could speeding up Beijing-Shanghai express trains even to 4:30 at 320 km/h attract appreciable numbers of air passengers to express trains?


joseph1951 said:


> 2-
> Well, 4684 km between Guangzhou-Urumqi are in the bracket of the 2000-5000 km distances I mentioned.
> 
> I think that the reason for a night train is to be able to have a dinner , relax and then sleep at leat -7 -8 hours during the night. I consider a good night train a Hotel on wheels. 7hours a 59 minutes is too short as a good night journey . You mightr make a 9-10 hours journey. People will sleep longer on the train and the trian will use less energy.
> 
> On a good night train one can confortably travel 12-13 hours and, in running at 300 km/h you can cover very long distances. (3200- 3400 km, if the train make several stops)


Yes, but the average speed including stops would be around 270 km/h or so. Over 5000 km, this adds up to 18 hours. Which is no longer just night, but also appreciable part of the next or previous day, or both. Flying in the evening and hotel night at destination, or staying night at origin and flying in the morning, could become alternatives.


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## joseph1951

chornedsnorkack said:


> 1-
> Wuhan-Guangzhou South
> 4 express trains daily, single stop at Changsha, travel times 3:39 and 3:41, departure times 9:00, 9:58, 13:51 and 14:20
> All other G trains take at least 4:03.
> 
> When Wuhan-Guangzhou opened in 2009-2010, there was a large decrease in the number of air passengers.
> 
> 2-
> Beijing-Shanghai
> 8 express trains daily, 1 or 2 stops, travel times 4:48 and 4:55 respectively. Regular hourly departures each sharp hour from 8 to 11 and 14 to 17.
> 
> There has been no noticeable effect to air passenger numbers.
> 
> If the time between 4:55 and 4:03 is a range to which passengers are sensitive... could speeding up Beijing-Shanghai express trains even to 4:30 at 320 km/h attract appreciable numbers of air passengers to express trains?
> 
> Yes, but the average speed including stops would be around 270 km/h or so. Over 5000 km, this adds up to 18 hours. Which is no longer just night, but also appreciable part of the next or previous day, or both. Flying in the evening and hotel night at destination, or staying night at origin and flying in the morning, could become alternatives.



1-
Only 4 express trains a day?
2-
Only 8 express trains daily with 1-2 stops? Beijing seem to have an population around 21~ 22 million people (unofficial data) and Shanghai should have around 23.7 million people. Clearly with only 8 epxresses a day there isn't a great deal of high speed raidership between the two megalopolis. *Perhaps the HSTs fares are far too high for the vast majority of the population*.

Just as a mere comparison the Tokyo- Osaka, the first Shinaksen built in Japan and intially for a top commercial speed of only 210 km/h carries up 412,000 passengers a day. Sections of the Paris- Lyon (Marseille) are carrying up do 15 trains /hour in each direction, and these trains are often made of 2 double decker TGVs.

Clearly, in your examples the 380 km/h top speed is not the major factors for choosong the train. Indeed they lowered to orginal top sped of 380 to 300 km/h for the very fast trains with a limited number of stops (1-2- stops) and to a max speed of 250 km/h for the other Very fas a cheaper High speed trains. 

With the present technology it is far too expensive (in energy consumption and wear and tear of the infrastructure and of rolling stock) to run trains at commercial speed up to 380-400+ km/h. For instance, to carry 1050 passenger at 380 km/h you need a train with 20 MW of power. To put things into perspective a 9,6~ 10 MW Locomotive can pull a 5000 ton freight train up to 120 km/h..

Since the 1990 China has started a massive program of investments in infrastructure (motorways and rails), but it has still a long way to go to satisfy the needs of a population about to exceed 1.4 billion people. 

Either China is going to buld a 300,000 - 400,000 km motorway network and provide cars to 65 -75% of its population (at an unsustainable cost) or it will have to greatly upgrade all its rail networks an rolling stock, and also it will have to construct new rail lines for domestic and international purposes, for freight and passengers transport.

A rail network is not solely made of 380 km/h HS trains.


In western Europe, where railways was invented we have quite a few small nations with very dense rail network and yet in Countries such as France, Germany, UK, Italy, Spain etc the rail experts do believe that is not yet commercially feasible to run trains in commercial revenue at 360-400 km/h. In Japan the rail engineers are in agreement with their european colleagues.

Perhaps the 360-400 km/h trains will be commrcailly feasible for very few lines in the nera future but, personally I suspect that above 320 km/h a 500-660 magleve line is more idicated than the HS train. I think that China is ideally suited for a maglev network. A maglev can be as fast, or faster, than a subonic plane although it will use only 50% of the nergy used by a plane, and to build a maglev line will cost just a little more than a conventional high sped rail...

Bejing- Shaghai by maglev in 1. 5 hours? Or Beijing - Hong -Kong by maglev in 3 hours, or less? 

========= 

I live in UK, and I was originally born in Italy, a small nation where a commercial speed of over 200 km/h was obtained on conventional rail in 1939. It was the ETR200 trainset which was a commercail high speed articulated light train (EMU). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FS_Class_ETR_200

The ETR200 was later upgraded and remained in service for another 50 years...


In the thirties in UK a steam passenger train exceeded 200 km/h. (The "Mallard" steam Locomotive).

Etc

On conventional routes such as Rome- Naples the EMU Ale601 reached 231 km/h in the early '60 (of the last century) and later in the late sixities/early seventies (of the last century) the EMU Ale 601 were tested up to 270 km/h, under 3000 volt DC.

Toadays train manufacturers keep producing and advertising trains "capable" of 350-380 km/h but - in daily operations - these trains are limted to top speed of 280-320 km/h.


and whilst the Chinese Velaro has reached 487 km/h thanks to the acquisition of the German technology, the German new generations of ICX will have top speed of only 249km/h.......:cheers:

Apparently , according to the German DB, it is far too costly to run trains at over 250 km/h, similraly in France they keep building rail lines at 350+ km/h, but Mr Pepeys of SNCF refuses to buy and run 360 km/h AGV trains.


----------



## Sunfuns

There are few lines in Europe which run at 320 for long stretches, but you are right that in the medium term (10-20 years) anything noticably faster than that is highly unlikely. 

Germany, however, is not the best example to cite. They built some 300 km/h stretches and are constructing (very slowly) few more, but their general railway strategy has moved away from HSR. Maybe it will change in the future or maybe it will not...


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## joseph1951

Sunfuns said:


> *There are few lines in Europe which run at 320 for long stretches*, but you are right that in the medium term (10-20 years) anything noticably faster than that is highly unlikely.
> 
> Germany, however, is not the best example to cite. They built some 300 km/h stretches and are constructing (very slowly) few more, but their general railway strategy has moved away from HSR. Maybe it will change in the future or maybe it will not...


1-
In Western Europe there are were few lines cpable of 320 km/h (or 350 km/h runs), and the 320-350 km/h stretches are quite short. On the other hand, Spain, France, Germany Italy etc are very very small Countries compared to China.

2-
Germany has a "mesh type" of rail network and a given town can often be reached via two differente lines. They have preferred to upgrade some lines to 230 km, to built some HS lines for 250-280 km/h and, so far, only 1 line for 300 km/h.

They have chosen to go "fast enough", not as fast as possible. For the far future who knows...

From the near future (in the next 5-10 years), *unless there are some major technical breakthroughs or the energy production is no longer a problem*:

*In Europe*:* in 2017/2018 *there will be some 320 km/h runs on the newly built TGV Tours- Bordeaux, and Bordeaux Toulouse, 320 km/h from Paris to Strasbourg, and perhaps 320 km/h from Calais to Paris (New Velaro Eurostar e320), and perhaps 320km/h from Barcellona to Madrid., and perhaps, perhaps, 320 km/h on some short stretches of the Italian HSLs

*In China in the near future :* MOR might well decide to increase the top speed to 320 -330km/h on *some *premium and profitable HSLs.

On the other hand, in China the railways transport system has made an enormous progress in a very few years, and I do not see any reason to complain because nowadays the HSL chinese trains are running "only" at 300-310 km/h!!!

A 3 fold increase on average commercial speed in more or less ten -fifteen years is not bad at all, and is no reason for complaint.


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## China Hand

joseph1951 said:


> A 3 fold increase on average commercial speed in more or less ten-fifteen years is not bad at all, and is no reason for complaint.


Sometimes 4-fold and on a handful of trains, 5-fold !

Yes, and trips that were 18 to 40 hours can all now be done in one day putting most of China within reach on one day's ride on the rails.

Before 1999 it took truck drivers 3 DAYS to get from Beijing to Northern Hebei or Shanxi. Winding two-lane country roads, ungraded, 30kph speeds at best. If you took the bus it took that long as well. Trains were 40kph to 60kph in 1995.

From the early 19th C. to the 21st C. in 10 years.

Not bad, at all.


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## chornedsnorkack

joseph1951 said:


> 1-
> Only 4 express trains a day?
> 2-
> Only 8 express trains daily with 1-2 stops? Beijing seem to have an population around 21~ 22 million people (unofficial data) and Shanghai should have around 23.7 million people. Clearly with only 8 epxresses a day there isn't a great deal of high speed raidership between the two megalopolis. *Perhaps the HSTs fares are far too high for the vast majority of the population*.
> 
> Just as a mere comparison the Tokyo- Osaka, the first Shinaksen built in Japan and intially for a top commercial speed of only 210 km/h carries up 412,000 passengers a day. Sections of the Paris- Lyon (Marseille) are carrying up do 15 trains /hour in each direction, and these trains are often made of 2 double decker TGVs.
> 
> Clearly, in your examples the 380 km/h top speed is not the major factors for choosong the train. Indeed they lowered to orginal top sped of 380 to 300 km/h for the very fast trains with a limited number of stops (1-2- stops) and to a max speed of 250 km/h for the other Very fas a cheaper High speed trains.


There are only 8 express trains Beijing-Shanghai daily - but there are also 33 non-express G trains, total 41. 

These 33 have trip times 5:18 to 5:38. They do have the same top speed of 300 km/h like the expresses, but make more stops (5 to 8). They also have exact same price as the expresses.

For comparison, there are 31 express trains Tokyo-Fukuoka daily - but not a single non-express direct Shinkansen.


joseph1951 said:


> Perhaps the 360-400 km/h trains will be commrcailly feasible for very few lines in the nera future but, personally I suspect that above 320 km/h a 500-660 magleve line is more idicated than the HS train. I think that China is ideally suited for a maglev network. A maglev can be as fast, or faster, than a subonic plane although it will use only 50% of the nergy used by a plane, and to build a maglev line will cost just a little more than a conventional high sped rail...
> 
> Bejing- Shaghai by maglev in 1. 5 hours? Or Beijing - Hong -Kong by maglev in 3 hours, or less?


In Japan, Chuo Shinkansen is under construction. What they plan is top speed 505 km/h, and for the 286 km distance Tokyo-Nagoya, they hope 40 minute trip time. Meaning 429 km/h average. Still far slower than nearsonic turbofan jets, and comparable to turbopropeller planes.

This would give about 3 hours Beijing-Shanghai, and 5 hours Beijing-Guangzhou.


----------



## makita09

joseph1951 said:


> Apparently , according to the German DB, it is far too costly to run trains at over 250 km/h


No they don't think that, as evidenced by the trains that DB put on the tracks today that go faster than 250km/h.

The new ICX trains are intended for slightly slower (more stops, less high speed running etc) routes, and to avoid compliance with European specifications for high speed trains they have been limited to a top speed of 249km/h.

Your attempted ambush of Mr Pepys in France is similarly malformed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Flying from Xian to Shenzhen is less expensive than the train and takes half the time. You can be in Hong Kong in 6 hours once you leave your hotel in Xian, arrive in Shenzhen, take the airport CRH into town, hop on the subway, go through customs and ride the MRT. It only makes sense once you get to Wuhan and points south to train it. The G824/G821 takes 9.5 hours to get to Shenzhen. Then another hour to get to XianBei and another hour to take the MRT into HK. You are up to 11 hours or more and cheap fares of 1000 to 2000 r/t can be found if you look for them.


The services to Shenzhen suck.

There is just 1 daily express train Wuhan-Shenzhen - G77, taking 4:13. All other direct G trains take 4:38 to 5:11.

Consider that Wuhan-Guangzhou is served by 4 express trains daily - G77 originating Wuhan, but also G93 from Zhengzhou, G95/G98 from Xian and G79 from Beijing. Only 1 express goes direct to Shenzhen, the others terminate at Guangzhou.

From Xian, 7 G trains daily go to Guangzhou. G98 is the 1 express train, reaching Guangzhou South in 7:40. The other 6 take 8:42 to 9:06.

The 2 daily trains which continue direct to Shenzhen are both nonexpresses, and take 9:23 and 9:34 to Shenzhen.

Since nonstop Guangzhou-Shenzhen takes 0:29 consistently, a 3 minute dwell time at Guangzhou South - would it be a good idea to make sure all expresses to Guangzhou continue direct to terminate in Shenzhen? That would be 8:12 Xian-Shenzhen, instead of 9:23.


----------



## hmmwv

joseph1951 said:


> 2-
> Well, 4684 km between Guangzhou-Urumqi are in the bracket of the 2000-5000 km distances I mentioned.
> 
> I think that the reason for a night train is to be able to have a dinner , relax and then sleep at leat -7 -8 hours during the night. I consider a good night train a Hotel on wheels. 7hours a 59 minutes is too short as a good night journey . You mightr make a 9-10 hours journey. People will sleep longer on the train and the trian will use less energy.
> 
> On a good night train one can confortably travel 12-13 hours and, in running at 300 km/h you can cover very long distances. (3200- 3400 km, if the train make several stops)
> 
> It could be a partial alternative to a day trip by aeroplane.


China briefly introduced long distance sleeper EMU trains from Chengdu to Beijing and Shanghai in 2011. The whole trip takes 15 hours, mostly because a lot of connecting lines were still under construction so a good chunk of the trip were limited to 160km/h. As a result the train were discontinued and replaced with a conventional 160km/h sleeper. The trip was described as very comfortable by a friend of mine who rode it, but said she'd still prefer a plane ride which is quicker and cheaper. Fast forward to today, as most of the missing links between Chengdu and Shanghai are being filled by 200-250km/h capable newly constructed lines, there are talks of the resumption and expansion of the EMU sleeper service. This notion was reinforced when MOR placed a large order (108 trainsets) of the CRH1E sleeper last September.


----------



## PredyGr

joseph1951 said:


> 1-
> So running at 380 instead of 300 you might save almost 1 hour at a big cost +40 ~ 60% increase in energy halve the life of the train and double the maintenance of the train and of tracks. Is it work it?


This is an example of a train, 200m long with 328 seats, making a 400 km trip with different average speeds.







.
Despite the notable increase in energy cost due to higher speed, the total operating costs remain largely unchanged, because of other factors having a negative trend with the increase in average speed, balancing the outcome. 

I am not the author. For anyone interested, the complete report is available at UIC website. Look for "relationship between rail service operating direct costs and speed".

There are already components capable of 400kmph operation, like axle bearings, gear drives, pantographs. So, the "halve the life of the train" conclusion, from where came off.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

I guess the only way for a train to feasibly run at 320+ km/h during normal operation is to have a short designed lifespan--you can easily replace the trainsets as they wear out. 

The only issue of wear and tear would therefore lie with the rails and wires. Those are stationary, and will degrade much faster.


----------



## joseph1951

makita09 said:


> No they don't think that, as evidenced by the trains that DB put on the tracks today that go faster than 250km/h.
> 
> 1-
> The new ICX trains are intended for slightly slower (more stops, less high speed running etc) routes, and to avoid compliance with European specifications for high speed trains they have been limited to a top speed of 249km/h.
> 
> .


In German speaking Countries ICE stands for Intercity-Express which is meant as Hgh Speed Trains

For high speed trains (ICEs) DB Has 

ICE3 (velaro family) homogated for 330 km/h top speed and presently limited to 320 in some lines (namely Paris Strasburg)
ICE1 for 280 km/h on sme NBS and on some ABS lines, with antennae on some conventional lines
ICE 2 for 280Km/h , as above
ICE TD (Diesel( Tilting for 200 km/h and 160 km/h
ICE fElectir tilting yrain for 230 km/h
IC, ICN, Interegio fast and interregio Sprint for euning between 140/200 km/h acordin to the lines.

On the newly construced and on soem newly upgrad lines used for mixed pax and freight traffics DB runs different type of pasenger trains with top speed rangin from 200 to 250 km/h (280 for late runnings) 
Only 1 Line is dedicate only to one type of DB HS Train : The Koeln /Frankfurt (up to 4% gradient.. etc) 



The ICX are meant to replace the presesent ICE1 and ICE2 Espress sets (by 2025) and DB has ordered 300 of these new trains. The ICE1* have a top speed of 280 km/h The ICx between 230 a nd 249. The limit of 249 km/h instead of 250/280 km/h on soem HSL service on some NBS was chosen simply o avoid tto pay the HS path tariffs nd other UIC bureaucratic asepcts .

Please refer to the relavant article on Wiki)


ICX 
From Wikipedia engl Edition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICx


*ICx 
In service from 2016 *- 

*Manufacturer Siemens, Bombardier as subcontractor 
Family name ICx *
Number built 220 trainsets ordered (80 on option) 
Formation K1n: 7 cars
K3s: 10 cars 
Capacity 499 (K1n)
724 (K3s) 
Operator Deutsche Bahn 
Specifications 
Car length 28 m 
Width 2,852 mm (9 ft 4.3 in) 
Maximum speed K1n 230 km/h (143 mph)
K3s 249 km/h (155 mph)[1] 
Power output 1,650 kW per motor car
K1n: 4,950 kW
K3s: 8,250 kW 
Power supply Overhead catenary 
Electric system(s) K1n: 15 kV/16.7 Hz; 25 kV/50 Hz; 1.5 kV/DC; 3 kV/DC
K3s: 15 kV/16.7 Hz 
Current collection method Pantograph 
Safety system(s) ETCS, LZB, PZB 
Gauge 1,435 mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in) Standard gauge 

*ICx is a Deutsche Bahn project to procure up to 300 inter-city trains to replace its existing fleets used on long-distance passenger services in Germany*.[2] *The first ICx electric multiple unit trainsets will replace Intercity/Eurocity rolling stock, followed by ICE 1 and ICE 2 trains by 2025*.[3] The ICx trains will be used on inter-city routes where DB believes Intercity-Express trainsets specifically designed for high speed operation are not suitable.[2]



[edit] ContractOn 25 January 2010 DB named Siemens Mobility preferred bidder for the ICx contact, beating Alstom.[3] and on 9 May 2011 DB and Siemens signed a framework contract for up to 300 ICx trains to be supplied by 2030.[4] Of these, 130 were to be ordered straight away, with 90 to follow taking the value to €6bn.[4] DB also has an option to order another 80 sets.

*Siemens has awarded Bombardier Transportation a framework contract to support the project, worth €1.3bn for the initial 130 trains and €2.1bn for 220. This includes aerodynamics, Flexx Eco unpowered bogies, and supplying bodyshells from its Görlitz plant with driving vehicle assembly at Hennigsdorf.[*4]

It is not known whether the push to use Bombardier's bogies was an act of protectionism: - Bombardier's relevant bogie plant is in Siegen, Germany whereas Siemens' is in Graz, Austria.

Construction will start in 2013, with two pre-production trains delivered in 2016 for 14 months of trial operation.[4]

[edit] FormationThe ICx vehicles will be a mix of powered and trailer vehicles. DB plans up to 24 different train configurations.[4]

The initial order covers two types of trainset K1n seven-car 230 km/h sets with three powered vehicles to replace locomotive-hauled IC trainsets, and K3s 10-car 249 km/h trains with five power cars to replace ICE1 and ICE2 trainsets.[4] All will have a restaurant and bistro car, family area and bicycle spaces.[4]

The top speed of 249 km/h avoids the need to comply with more demanding Technical Specifications for Interoperability requirements at 250 km/h.[1]

[edit] See alsoICE 3
Siemens Velaro
[edit] External linksDer ICx - die neue DB Plattform Siemens Mobility (in German)

German InterCity of Trains (ICE) family of trains

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity-Express



For the second patr of you post relating to my assumed sabotage of Pepys and SNCF I will reply asap.

Kind Regards


----------



## skyridgeline

PredyGr said:


> This is an example of a train, 200m long with 328 seats, making a 400 km trip with different average speeds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> Despite the *notable increase in energy cost due to higher speed*, the total operating costs remain largely unchanged, because of other factors having a negative trend with the increase in average speed, balancing the outcome.
> 
> I am not the author. For anyone interested, the complete report is available at UIC website. Look for "relationship between rail service operating direct costs and speed".
> 
> There are already components capable of 400kmph operation, like axle bearings, gear drives, pantographs. So, the "halve the life of the train" conclusion, from where came off.



Run the trains at maximum speeds during off-peak hours. The electricity prices should be about 1/3 to 1/2 of peak hour prices. :bowtie:.


----------



## makita09

joseph1951 said:


> In German speaking Countries ICE stands for Intercity-Express which is meant as Hgh Speed Trains...


Thanks. I didn't know that. hno:

The ICE1 and 2 barely get above 250km/h as they are not distributed traction, the gradients on German HSRs are killer, and the ICX will maintain service speeds with a lower max speed. Seems entirely sensible to me.

The ICE3s will not be replaced or reduced in speed. Indeed, further units will be purchased.

I was responding to your hyperbolic criticisms of DB, which were invalid in your own terms.


----------



## China Hand

skyridgeline said:


> Run the trains at maximum speeds during off-peak hours. The electricity prices should be about 1/3 to 1/2 of peak hour prices. :bowtie:.


Based on what we know I suspect that graph takes off higher as you get over 300 to 310 and beyond.


----------



## joseph1951

makita09 said:


> 1 -
> Thanks. I didn't know that. hno:
> 
> The ICE1 and 2 barely get above 250km/h as they are not distributed traction, the gradients on German HSRs are killer, and the ICX will maintain service speeds with a lower max speed. Seems entirely sensible to me.
> 
> The ICE3s will not be replaced or reduced in speed. Indeed, further units will be purchased.
> 
> I was responding to your hyperbolic criticisms of DB, which were invalid in your own terms.


Had you known you should not have written this post:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=100473719&postcount=1385


Prior to you famous post I had merely written than the German are replacing their HST with the ICx slower ones 

Indeed the IC1 and IC2 have a top speed of 280 km/h. ICE1 has a slow acceleration when is made of two locos and 14 carriagies, but if you reduce the train to 2 locos and 8 carriages, *therefore reducing the weight of the of more tha 400 tons*, it will have an acceleration similar to that TGV Duplex, which incidentally has thw power concentrated on the two locos, just like the TGVs.

Futhermore the ICE1 carriages are extremely heavy.

Incidentally, the TGV which have concentrated power on locos, have exceeded the 500km/h mark as early as 1991 with a TGV of reduced formation and made of only 2 *locos and 3 carriages*., and guess what? The power was concentrated only on the two locos, *not distrbuted between locos ands carriages.*

Indeed on long consists (for instance Eurostar TMST BR class 390) you can put the power on the two locos (top and tail) and also add extra power distributed on the carriages, by simply motorizing some car bogies.

The same SNCF has also tought of making some new Jumbo Duplex , 400m long, with two locos at the both ends of the train, and 18 carriages with some extra power mounted on the bogies supporting them. In this case you could have a train which is about 70 tons lighter that 2 TGV Duplex and could carry 150 more pax than 2 standard coupled TGV Duplex.


I am suprised that an alleged expert such yourself has not yet figured out these elementary things, or discovered that the German ICE1 /IC2 are indeed high speed trains, which will be replaced by 230 and 249 km/h ICX trains, which will also be HSTs. 

Therefore in the future there will be a reduction on the top speeds on most of the German HSTs from todays 280/250 to 230 /249.

Incidentally, here below you will find the link containing the German Railway Map. The lines are colour coded and, unless you are totally colour blind, you will notice that there are only two short lines where the 300km/h runs are permitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ICEtracks.png


----------



## makita09

joseph1951 said:


> Had you known you should not have written this post:
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=100473719&postcount=1385
> 
> 
> Prior to you famous post I had merely written than the German are replacing their HST with the ICx slower ones


Oh for God's sakes, you were making general statements that were clearly untrue about DB's general position on high speed. If you care to correct your own post as much you care to try and correct mine then you would return to your original point and edit out the hyperbole. My only point was that you didn't have one.



> Indeed the IC1 and IC2 have a top speed of 280 km/h. ICE1 has a slow acceleration when is made of two locos and 14 carriagies, but if you reduce the train to 2 locos and 8 carriages, *therefore reducing the weight of the of more tha 400 tons*, it will have an acceleration similar to that TGV Duplex, which incidentally has thw power concentrated on the two locos, just like the TGVs.


Actually they don't, TGVs have powered axles in the passenger cars next to each loco so they have better tractive effort than the ICE1/2.

According to my records ICE1 has 11.5kW/ton, and even the lowest powered TGV has 16.75kW/ton, a TGV Duplex 23.15kW/ton.



> Futhermore the ICE1 carriages are extremely heavy.
> 
> Incidentally, the TGV which have concentrated power on locos, have exceeded the 500km/h mark as early as 1991 with a TGV of reduced formation and made of only 2 *locos and 3 carriages*., and guess what? The power was concentrated only on the two locos, *not distrbuted between locos ands carriages.*


Apart from being slightly wrong, what is your point?



> Indeed on long consists (for instance Eurostar TMST BR class 390) you can put the power on the two locos (top and tail) and also add extra power distributed on the carriages, by simply motorizing some car bogies.


Its BR class 373, class 390 is Alstom Pendolino.

The morphology of a Eurostar set is the same as a TGV. Eurostars have more power by having a more powerful traction package, not by having extra powered carriages.



> The same SNCF has also tought of making some new Jumbo Duplex , 400m long, with two locos at the both ends of the train, and 18 carriages with some extra power mounted on the bogies supporting them. In this case you could have a train which is about 70 tons lighter that 2 TGV Duplex and could carry 150 more pax than 2 standard coupled TGV Duplex.


Yes, by adding power to the end bogies of each half-set as these bogies are not jacob's bogies. I am aware of this development, which has been proposed many years ago but doesn't seem to be occurring.



> I am suprised that an alleged expert such yourself has not yet figured out these elementary things, or discovered that the German ICE1 /IC2 are indeed high speed trains, which will be replaced by 230 and 249 km/h ICX trains, which will also be HSTs.
> 
> Therefore in the future there will be a reduction on the top speeds on most of the German HSTs from todays 280/250 to 230 /249.
> 
> Incidentally, here below you will find the link containing the German Railway Map. The lines are colour coded and, unless you are totally colour blind, you will notice that there are only two short lines where the 300km/h runs are permitted.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ICEtracks.png



You havent addressed my point at all - the point to point timings will not be reduced with the new trains, except in a few circumstances. All I want to know is why the tabloid dramatics directed at the managers at DB?


----------



## SamuraiBlue

chornedsnorkack said:


> In Japan, Chuo Shinkansen is under construction. What they plan is top speed 505 km/h, and for the 286 km distance Tokyo-Nagoya, they hope 40 minute trip time. Meaning 429 km/h average. Still far slower than nearsonic turbofan jets, and comparable to turbopropeller planes.


This comparison is off since the 40 minutes is starting from Shinagawa station from a stand still to Nagoya station at complete stop.
That is the same as a commercial plane closing it's doors at the airport to opening it's doors at their destination including the taxing to the actual runway to landing and parking the plane at the terminal.


----------



## Sunfuns

Silver Swordsman said:


> I guess the only way for a train to feasibly run at 320+ km/h during normal operation is to have a short designed lifespan--you can easily replace the trainsets as they wear out.
> 
> The only issue of wear and tear would therefore lie with the rails and wires. Those are stationary, and will degrade much faster.


There are currently two stretches in France with operational speed of 320 km/h (Paris-Strasbourg and Mulhouse-Dijon) and in Spain Barcelona-Madrid goes as high as 310 km/h. Maximum designed operational speed for those lines (and several others recently built or under construction) is 350 km/h. Haven't heard anything about drastically increased wear and tear. Of course 310 and 320 is not significantly above 300 - it could very well be that 350 makes a big difference. Those kind of things aren't always linear.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> In Japan, Chuo Shinkansen is under construction. What they plan is top speed 505 km/h, and for the 286 km distance Tokyo-Nagoya, they hope 40 minute trip time. Meaning 429 km/h average.


So they have green lit and approved and funded this project?

I thought it was in perpetual development and research only.

It would be great if China could afford and approve another CRH upgrade, this a MAGLEV line or two. One Haerbin-Hong Kong, another Kunming-Shanghai. They just might do that in 10 or 20 years.


----------



## TheZoolooMaster

Some people seem to have forgotten about what the Koreans are also doing:

The *HEMU-430X* (previously 400X) has a planned top speed of 430 km/h and a planned operational speed of *370 km/h*


----------



## Silly_Walks

China Hand said:


> It would be great if China could afford and approve another CRH upgrade, this a MAGLEV line or two. One Haerbin-Hong Kong, another Kunming-Shanghai. They just might do that in 10 or 20 years.


I'm guessing if China were to build high speed maglev lines, the first one would be between Beijing and Shanghai, the moment the existing line runs out of space for more trains/passengers :cheers:


----------



## Silly_Walks

TheZoolooMaster said:


> Some people seem to have forgotten about what the Koreans are also doing:
> 
> The *HEMU-430X* (previously 400X) has a planned top speed of 430 km/h and a planned operational speed of *370 km/h*


There's a difference between plans and real life... we'll see what happens once they release that thing into the wild and actually run it on their network at 370 km/h for over a year.


----------



## joseph1951

Silly_Walks said:


> I'm guessing if China were to build high speed maglev lines, the first one would be between Beijing and Shanghai, the moment the existing line runs out of space for more trains/passengers :cheers:


The Korean first HST was an 18 passenger car version of the TGV Reseau and so far this train is the few single deck "long trains" derived from the TGV platform .This train is 388 metres long and carries 935 passengers. 

It has two locomotives + 18 carriages, and like the TGV SudEst and the TGV Eurostar TMST (BR Class 373) on top of the locos it also has 2 passenger cars powered.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Train_Express

Subsequently, with the HS350x and the KTX-II, the Koreans copied very badly the French technology and badly retrofitted it in these two "new Korean HSTs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSR-350x

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KTX-II

The latest Korean HST, the HEMU -400X seems a mixture of French-and Japanese design,and probably a mixture of various technologies coming from the 4 corners of the World..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEMU-400X

I suspect that the indigenous Korean High Speed Rail technologies is not yet fully mature to venture in the in teh filed of Very High Speed Train (360-400 km/h)

Above 360-420 km/h there is a tremendous surge in energy consumption, and in wear of the rolling stock and infrastucture which doesnt' ' make it yet justifiable to run convetional trains at commercial top speed of 360~400 km/h, or more

Even a maglev, which is a train that has no friction with the rail or the catenary, when running at 500 km/h has an energy requirments which is 3,5 greater than that of a Japanese N700 running at 270km/h...........


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^

Are you sure you responded to the right post?


----------



## foxmulder

^^

That's like his thing, jumps from subject to subject  It looks like he is making a point but he just waters down the topic  Interesting fellow.


----------



## joseph1951

Silly_Walks said:


> ^^
> 
> Are you sure you responded to the right post?


Yes! I di try to answer your post.


But since you , apparently, did not understang what I wrote ,let me put it in a different way, perhaps less diplomatic but more clear :

_what the Korean are doing is just rubbish_. 

They tried over and over again to retrofit, and improve on the KTX-I they have imported from France, and this just to say: _we got and indigenous high speed train which is the faster in the world, and can run at 400km/h on commerial revenue_.

But they can't build it, yet . Perhaps in 30 years......

If If they want at all cost to have a train that can be run, pretty soon, at 360 - 400 km/h on commercial services they will have to buy a train built either by the Japanese, or the French, or the German, or the Canadian (Bombardier).


However, if with your post you were trying to say: _Even the Korean are trying to run their own made HST at 400 km/h, so why we don't do the same or better, right now_"?.

Forget it. It wont' happen very soon.

Have you got it, now?


----------



## hmmwv

joseph1951 said:


> Yes! I di try to answer your post.
> 
> 
> But since you , apparently, did not understang what I wrote ,let me put it in a different way, perhaps less diplomatic but more clear :
> 
> _what the Korean are doing is just rubbish_.
> 
> They tried over and over again to retrofit, and improve on the KTX-I they have imported from France, and this just to say: _we got and indigenous high speed train which is the faster in the world, and can run at 400km/h on commerial revenue_.
> 
> But they can't build it, yet . Perhaps in 30 years......
> 
> If If they want at all cost to have a train that can be run, pretty soon, at 360 - 400 km/h on commercial services they will have to buy a train built either by the Japanese, or the French, or the German, or the Canadian (Bombardier).
> 
> 
> However, if with your post you were trying to say: _Even the Korean are trying to run their own made HST at 400 km/h, so why we don't do the same or better, right now_"?.
> 
> Forget it. It wont' happen very soon.
> 
> Have you got it, now?


I'm pretty it was you who got everything confused, it was TheZoolooMaster who brought up the HEMU-430X, Silly_Walks was the one pointed out that the Korean is unlikely to be able to run the train at that speed commercially.


----------



## hmmwv

CRH380A CIT at Nanjing South HSR Depot


----------



## China Hand

Silly_Walks said:


> I'm guessing if China were to build high speed maglev lines, the first one would be between Beijing and Shanghai, the moment the existing line runs out of space for more trains/passengers :cheers:


What would travel times be for 500 kph top speed at 440 kph avg?
About 3 hours?


----------



## Silly_Walks

China Hand said:


> What would travel times be for 500 kph top speed at 440 kph avg?
> About 3 hours?


I think about that. And with central underground terminals in both cities, air travel would probably be reduced to 10-20% marketshare on that route.


----------



## big-dog

Feb-27 First generation HSR "China Star" drives to China Railway Museum (Beijing)










link


----------



## maldini

big-dog said:


> Feb-27 First generation HSR "China Star" drives to China Railway Museum (Beijing)


Continuation of this project is needed.


----------



## Silly_Walks

maldini said:


> Continuation of this project is needed.


Why? The other trains China is working on are far more advanced.


----------



## Sopomon

Silly_Walks said:


> Why? The other trains China is working on are far more advanced.


Well, yes, but with China Star, it can be truthfully be claimed that it's indigenous and thus have far fewer hurdles to pass to get to export.


----------



## big-dog

It's in the museum, and history now.










by 伤心的鱼化石


----------



## China Hand

Sopomon said:


> Well, yes, but with China Star, it can be truthfully be claimed that it's indigenous and thus have far fewer hurdles to pass to get to export.


The Chinese wisely saw that their effort was not up to par and then proceeded with technology transfer. They recognised that others were better and went with that.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

big-dog said:


> It's in the museum, and history now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by 伤心的鱼化石


The train could use a coat of wax to shiny it up abit.


----------



## maldini

Sopomon said:


> Well, yes, but with China Star, it can be truthfully be claimed that it's indigenous and thus have far fewer hurdles to pass to get to export.


This indigenous project should be restarted some day.


----------



## luhai

SamuraiBlue said:


> The train could use a coat of wax to shiny it up abit.


but then it won't look old and authentic, notice the other train also have a rustic rather than a shiny look.



> Continuation of this project is needed.











Though far less glamorous, I consider two design to be more significant. As they will take over the D train service and regional train service when the first gen CRH eventually retire, and make up the bulk of the high speed fleet.


----------



## joseph1951

Silly_Walks said:


> I'm guessing if China were to build high speed maglev lines, the first one would be between Beijing and Shanghai, the moment the existing line runs out of space for more trains/passengers :cheers:


Most probably. For non-stop services a 500/550 km/h maglev train will reduce the journey time to under 3h, city centre to city centre.


----------



## big-dog

*CRH380D *which will be used on Hangzhou-Nanjing and Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR

Max speed: 380km/h










by 高铁见闻


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^

Will there be a direct Nanjing-Ningbo G-train?


----------



## Silver Swordsman

big-dog said:


> *CRH380D *which will be used on Hangzhou-Nanjing and Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR
> 
> Max speed: 380km/h
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by 高铁见闻


Why are the wheels yellow?


----------



## hmmwv

DJJ1 Blue Arrow is a much more successful domestic HSR project than China Star, it operated for 13 years until Dec 2012 when all eight trainsets reached their operational life and were removed from service (Guiyang-Liupanshui) for evaluation.


----------



## PredyGr

Silver Swordsman said:


> Why are the wheels yellow?


 These are instrumented wheelsets. I guess.

http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S004316480200114X-gr1.jpg


----------



## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> DJJ1 Blue Arrow is a much more successful domestic HSR project than China Star, it operated for 13 years until Dec 2012 when all eight trainsets reached their operational life and were removed from service (Guiyang-Liupanshui) for evaluation.


I've never heard about this train. It looks really cool. The cars look like the cars on the CRH1.


----------



## Pansori

FM 2258 said:


> I've never heard about this train. It looks really cool. The cars look like the cars on the CRH1.


There are some pretty cool videos of DJJ1 running at full speed (supposedly 220km/h). It was, if I'm not mistaken, the first 'real' HSR trainset to be used on Guangshen railway

2007


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> I've never heard about this train. It looks really cool. The cars look like the cars on the CRH1.


Yeah this and the DJF2 Pioneer are my two favorite domestic HSR trains, the latter is a true high speed power distributed EMU which set a 292.8 km/h record in 2002. A lone trainset was built and operated commercially until it was retired to Nanjing Institute of Railway Technology last year.


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> There are some pretty cool videos of DJJ1 running at full speed (supposedly 220km/h). It was, if I'm not mistaken, the first 'real' HSR trainset to be used on Guagshen railway
> 
> 2007


The first one would be the imported x2000.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Thanks for the video *pansori* and picture *hmmwv*! Were these trains just really inefficient compared to trains like the CRH1? Also did these trains get the *D* designation?


----------



## Pansori

Yep, I just did some reading about X2000. The train in the video is not a DJJ1 but a X2000 which is a Swedish design. I never knew China has imported Swedish HSR (or quasi-HSR) technology.

So is DJJ1 somehow related to X2000? DJJ1 is a loco-hauled train while X2000 looks like an EMU which makes it somewhat impossible/unlikely.

Also, isn't China Star developed on the basis of DJJ1?


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Thanks for the video *pansori* and picture *hmmwv*! Were these trains just really inefficient compared to trains like the CRH1? Also did these trains get the *D* designation?


DJJ1 is China's first high speed EMU that entered serial production so understandably there are lots of issues with them, they are generally speaking pretty good but definitely not as good as mature products from world class train makers. DJF2 was reportedly even better with all the right ingredients of a modern high speed EMU, it's regarded as a mini 300 Series Shinkansen due to imported Japanese technology. It was however born at the wrong time since by the time i passed all MOR trials the ministry under Mr. Liu had already decided on adopting imported foreign technologies. I don't blame him given how willing those train makers were to share technologies, if I'm MOR and all the sudden I realized I can get all those technologies for virtually free I'd jump on it too.



Pansori said:


> Yep, I just did some reading about X2000. The train in the video is not a DJJ1 but a X2000 which is a Swedish design. I never knew China has imported Swedish HSR (or quasi-HSR) technology.
> 
> So is DJJ1 somehow related to X2000? DJJ1 is a loco-hauled train while X2000 looks like an EMU which makes it somewhat impossible/unlikely.
> 
> Also, isn't China Star developed on the basis of DJJ1?


Nope that video is the DJJ1, the x2000 looks completely different (see pic below). What you see first is the rear car, the loco was pushing from behind. The DJJ1 is not related to the X2000, which is a loco-hauled tilting train. X2000's success on Guangzhou-Shenzhen line persuaded MOR to start the development of a domestic high speed train. The x2000 simply can't compete with those CRH trains later and was sold back to Sweden last year. DJJ2 China Star is a follow up project of DJJ1 and there could be some technology inherited, but I don't think it's designed based on DJJ1.


----------



## China Hand

Geography said:


> The only time I've seen more than one person in the cab of a Chinese HSR is during testing. Otherwise the pictures only show a single driver. There is only one chair, after all. And that chair doesn't have a seatbelt like airplane pilot seats have!


I have seen 3 or 4 in the cab from Xian to Zhenzhou, multiple times.

They stand.


----------



## bearb

CRH6 on the way to Guangdong
by 方大头_Q


----------



## foxmulder

Nice catch.  Great pictures.


----------



## Sopomon

The taillights on that are an unexpectedly nice design feature


----------



## FM 2258

Great to see the CRH6 out in the open!!!! What station is it going through? I cannot read the characters, learning.


----------



## Scion

^^ Wuchang Station, south of the Yangtze part of Wuhan


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Thank tou *Scion*


----------



## big-dog

new CRH380cl on Beijing-Shanghai HSR line










by 济南西站


----------



## Sopomon

^^
Probably my favourite of all the CRH sets.

There aren't many of those being built, right?


----------



## big-dog

New CRH380CL running on Beijing-Shanghai HSR line (G11)










by Luo Chunxiao


----------



## Pansori

big-dog said:


> New CRH380CL running on Beijing-Shanghai HSR line (G11)
> 
> by Luo Chunxiao


Is that in regular service or just some kind of trial operation? How many of those have been ordered?


----------



## foxmulder

^^ It should be 240 sets for around 10 billion $ in 4 deals according to a table posted here 1 year ago


----------



## hmmwv

luhai said:


> Basically a more efficient, high volume, slower speed trainset.


I don't think so, the CRH3G lacks the middle door the CRH6 high volume commuter train has, so it's probably designed for the traditional 200-250km CRC CRH service. Not metro company operated commuter service that CRH6 is designed for.



Pansori said:


> Is that in regular service or just some kind of trial operation? How many of those have been ordered?


I think the CLs have been put into regular operation.


----------



## big-dog

May 7th First CSR 200km/h CRH6 off assembly line

CRH6-4501









This is the start of mass production of this CRH6




































by 小侬包不甜覅吃


----------



## FM 2258

^^

That is a beautiful looking high speed commuter train! Any idea where these pictures were taken? Looking at the background, always cranes and new buildings going up in China!


----------



## big-dog

^^ The location is Puzheng factory (Nanjing) of China South Railway (CSR). Yes 160-200km/h CRHs are perfect for intercity or commuter rails.


----------



## hmmwv

Delete


----------



## hmmwv

After getting their own HSR projects killed years ago I'm glad they are again assembling high speed EMUs for CRH.


----------



## hmmwv

I now wonder about the other CRH6 model, it seems that news about that one has died off completely, I never heard about them being competitors but that might be a possibility.


----------



## Sopomon

Although I like design of the CL, I wonder what it is, I was thinking the velaro platform with a nosejob?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> So far I have not seen any serious efforts to develop something like the TGV Duplex. When China put CRH6 into service on a lot of the local commuter lines they will solve a lot of the capacity problems, as local traffic will shift away from longer distance HSR trains.


How?
CRH6 speed limit is 250 or 220 km/h. Wouldn´t it cause a serious slowdown of long distance trains?


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> CRH6 speed limit is 250 or 220 km/h. Wouldn´t it cause a serious slowdown of long distance trains?


How so? A slower "local" service will have stations, ie. crossing loops, closer together, letting faster trains pass. This could have a problem that the increased number of points need more maintenance and/or reduce reliability.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> How?
> CRH6 speed limit is 250 or 220 km/h. Wouldn´t it cause a serious slowdown of long distance trains?


They will not run on 350km/h trunk lines, but rather commuter services, but because they serve smaller stations relatively close to big cities people will opt to ride that instead of jamming onto G trains. The idea is in the future when the commuter train network is developed, people traveling from Shanghai to Kunshan will ride the commuter rail served by CRH6, not a G train on the Beijing-Shanghai HSR.



xinxingren said:


> How so? A slower "local" service will have stations, ie. crossing loops, closer together, letting faster trains pass. This could have a problem that the increased number of points need more maintenance and/or reduce reliability.


Yes even if they run on the same line measures can be taken to minimize slow downs, but I think the idea is still to largely separate CRH6 (S trains) from regular CRH services. And CRH6 is designed to serve large number of passengers with frequent stops, so I'd imagine it's already taken the increased wear and tear into consideration.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> They will not run on 350km/h trunk lines, but rather commuter services,


"Trunk lines" and "commuter services" are not contradicting each other! One is "line" and the other "service".


hmmwv said:


> but because they serve smaller stations relatively close to big cities people will opt to ride that instead of jamming onto G trains. The idea is in the future when the commuter train network is developed, people traveling from Shanghai to Kunshan will ride the commuter rail served by CRH6, not a G train on the Beijing-Shanghai HSR.


Would they ride on some new built commuter train lines, or on existing trunk railway lines? Like the existing railway line Shanghai-Shanghai West-Anting-Kunshan-Nanjing-Beijing that already was upgraded to 250 km/h between Shanghai West and Anting in 2007?


----------



## foxmulder

I realized smt when I saw the following picture regarding CRH500/CIT500. 










It looks like it has different noses to test. We have seen the beak like nose (car M1) but I don't remember seeing the other one (car M6). Did we see it? Any pictures? From the drawing it looks like CRH380A nose but I am not sure.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> "Trunk lines" and "commuter services" are not contradicting each other! One is "line" and the other "service".
> 
> Would they ride on some new built commuter train lines, or on existing trunk railway lines? Like the existing railway line Shanghai-Shanghai West-Anting-Kunshan-Nanjing-Beijing that already was upgraded to 250 km/h between Shanghai West and Anting in 2007?


Okay, "line" instead of "service." In Shanghai's example it probably will be a combination of a future new dedicated commuter rail line and existing "local" lines (upgraded conventional Shanghai-Nanjing railway and Shanghai Nanjing ICL). But definitely not on Beijing-Shanghai HSR.


----------



## FM 2258

This is kind of an update for me. I was going to ask why the CRH380C came out after the CRH380D. I got lost in what each CRH380 type was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRH380


CRH380 refers to a series of high speed rail locomotive currently in service in the high speed rail system of China:

CRH380A, introduced in 2010 by China South Locomotive & Rolling Stock Corporation Limited.
CRH380B, a Chinese variant of Siemens Velaro produced by Siemens and Tangshan Railway Vehicle.
CRH380C, produced by a joint-venture between Bombardier and CSR Sifang Co Ltd..
CRH380D, the 380km/h variant of Bombardier Zefiro.


Why call them CRH380's if they never plan on running them at 380km/h? Maybe it's kinda like how a street legal sports car is advertized to run at 200mph but people rarely take their car that fast.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> How so? A slower "local" service will have stations, ie. crossing loops, closer together, letting faster trains pass. This could have a problem that the increased number of points need more maintenance and/or reduce reliability.


Consider the headway.

If the railway is not full then a slower train can simply run sufficient distance ahead of the faster train, so that even as the express train is approaching it, the headway remains sufficient for safety.

While trains on direct track can pass switches at the full speed of 350 km/h, there are obvious physical problems doing so on diverging tracks. From
http://www.railway-technical.com/Infopaper 3 High Speed Line Capacity v3.pdf
dated August 2011, it is claimed that:


Piers Connor said:


> No one has managed to engineer a
> turnout to take a speed higher than 200km/h and even that was very expensive


This:
http://www.crbbi.com/En/News/info.php?inid=1300082376
claims that, as of December 2008, the highest speed turnout in China was built for 350 km/h on straight and 160 km/h on diverging track. Well, the Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway presumably has turnouts fit for 380 km/h on straight track, but what is the speed on diverging tracks?

A local train HAS to decelerate from the 300 km/h speed of the chasing express to at least 160 km/h while on the main tracks. And during that deceleration, the chasing express trains is eating into the headway.
And if that express train passes in the station then the local train getting out of the station again faces similar speed limits, so it has to accelerate while on main track, and it is the next express that is eating into headway. Also, if an express train is to pass a local train at station then the express train has to be followed by a previously empty train path, not by another express at a minimum headway.

But the 250 km/h speed limit of CRH6 aggravates the situation seriously, and this is what I was referring to. If a D train has a top speed of 250 km/h throughout then it is eating into the headway of chasing express train not only at the approach and exit from station, but throughout the cruise on the route between stations. So if the line is full, trains with lower top speed are a very serious problem.

Now, how about other lines?

Shanghai West-Anting is supposed to have been upgraded to 250 km/h back in 2007 already. Which trains are now actually using the line at these speeds?


----------



## Restless

M-NL said:


> That's because both the TGV and the ICE use 2+2 seating in 2nd and 2+1 seating in 1st. Because the Shinkansen is wider it uses 2+3 in 2nd and 2+2 for 1st, so for every row you gain a seat. As far as I can find CRH is the same.


That is correct.

The HSR trains in China and Japan are wider, so they can fit an extra seat on every row.


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> No.
> Tokaido Shinkansen does not permit ANY trains that do not have 16 cars. Tokaido Shinkansen also does not permit any trains that do not have exactly 1323 seats, including exactly 200 first class and exactly 1123 second class seat, but no other classes.
> This also makes direct trains Tokyo-Kagoshima impossible. Kyushu Shinkansn stations fit only 8 cars, so the 16 car trains from Tokyo physically cannot pass Fukuoka. The 8 car trains from Kagoshima freely travel to Osaka, and there is no physical obstacle to continue to Tokyo - but the 8 train cars are not allowed to pass.
> 
> How many Chinese trainsets have 1323 or more seats, like Shinkansen?


When the Tokaido Shinkansen reached capacity in terms of the number of trains they could run, the only option was to increase the seating density.

When some of the Chinese lines reach capacity in the future, we will see the same thing happen.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> This is kind of an update for me. I was going to ask why the CRH380C came out after the CRH380D. I got lost in what each CRH380 type was:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRH380
> 
> 
> CRH380 refers to a series of high speed rail locomotive currently in service in the high speed rail system of China:
> 
> CRH380A, introduced in 2010 by China South Locomotive & Rolling Stock Corporation Limited.
> CRH380B, a Chinese variant of Siemens Velaro produced by Siemens and Tangshan Railway Vehicle.
> CRH380C, produced by a joint-venture between Bombardier and CSR Sifang Co Ltd..
> CRH380D, the 380km/h variant of Bombardier Zefiro.
> 
> 
> Why call them CRH380's if they never plan on running them at 380km/h? Maybe it's kinda like how a street legal sports car is advertized to run at 200mph but people rarely take their car that fast.


They are designed and plan to run at 380km/h, and as CRH380A has demonstrated it can manage much higher speed at 486km/h. If Liu Zhijun didn't fall Beijing-Shanghai HSR will operate at 380km/h by CRH380As. So yeah it's perfectly appropriate to call them CRH380. They were originally planned as CRH400 but was reduced to 380km/h to allow more safety margins.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> A local train HAS to decelerate from the 300 km/h speed of the chasing express to at least 160 km/h while on the main tracks. And during that deceleration, the chasing express trains is eating into the headway.
> And if that express train passes in the station then the local train getting out of the station again faces similar speed limits, so it has to accelerate while on main track, and it is the next express that is eating into headway. Also, if an express train is to pass a local train at station then the express train has to be followed by a previously empty train path, not by another express at a minimum headway.
> 
> ...
> So if the line is full, trains with lower top speed are a very serious problem.


To maximise Return On Investment the line should be full. What is full? The Chinese might regard the PDL as a social service, and thus mix "local" and "express" trains on the same line. They've been doing this on the ordinary lines since the invention of the locomotive, so they've got some practice. A "full" line will be defined as some optimum ratio of local to express traffic, and to achieve this timetabling will have to balance the demand at the various stations, the distances apart of the stops, with the different speeds and accelaration/decelaration of the different trains. 

I don't think it's really a "very serious problem" to have to slow a high speed train by 3 minutes on 500km if it means selling 1000 more tickets on another "slow" train doing the middle 200km. The line becomes "full" when increasing traffic, fast or slow, unacceptably increases travel times. Note this is a subjective measure. The solution is to fourtrack the line. Observe also that several segments of Chinese PDL are already effectively four tracked. (Or six tracked if you count the parallel standard track.)


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> The solution is to fourtrack the line. Observe also that several segments of Chinese PDL are already effectively four tracked. (Or six tracked if you count the parallel standard track.)


There is a difference between parallel but separate lines, and actual four tracks.

Parallel but separate lines that intersect only at a few points give few advantages for trains to switch from one line to another, like to start stopping or be passed by another train. Yes, they may overtake on an opposing track, but this has even bigger problems with line capacity!

The advantage of parallel lines, of course, is that they may serve station stops where the other line does not.


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> There is a difference between parallel but separate lines, and actual four tracks.
> 
> Parallel but separate lines that intersect only at a few points give few advantages for trains to switch from one line to another, like to start stopping or be passed by another train. Yes, they may overtake on an opposing track, but this has even bigger problems with line capacity!
> 
> The advantage of parallel lines, of course, is that they may serve station stops where the other line does not.


Only having a few intersection points on a separate railway is not a big deal.
The major passenger nodes are easily determined, so as long as they interest, they account for almost all of the passenger entries/exits.

There's no point running slower train services to cater for the few passengers travelling from intermediate station to intermediate station.
That's basic railway economics, which you can see on the Tokaido.

Plus you can just have a passing set of tracks when the train in front has stopped at a station.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> Only having a few intersection points on a separate railway is not a big deal.
> The major passenger nodes are easily determined, so as long as they interest, they account for almost all of the passenger entries/exits.
> 
> There's no point running slower train services to cater for the few passengers travelling from intermediate station to intermediate station.
> That's basic railway economics, which you can see on the Tokaido.


And the basic railway economics is that Kodama trains do run on Tokaido.

Anyway, looking at Jiangnan again.
Shanghai-Suzhou is 84 km.
Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway has 1 intermediate station: Kunshan South.
Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railway has 7 intermediate stations in the same route: 
Suzhou Industrial Park
Yangcheng Lake
Kunshan South
Huaqiao
Anting North
Nanxiang North
Shanghai West
Also 8th is under construction between Suzhou Industrial Park and Yangcheng Lake, named Weiting West.

On Shanghai-Beijing railway, I could only find trains stopping in 1 station, namely Kunshan without South.

But Anting without North is a named place on the Shanghai-Beijing railway - as suggested by the fact that the station on Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railway is Anting North. 

Does it mean that an Anting Station exists on Shanghai-Beijing railway?
Which trains stop there?

The names Nanxiang North and Weiting West likewise suggest existence of stations Nanxiang and Weiting.

Compare some other lines:
Taipei to Hsinchu is 78,1 km on Western Line.
The parallel Taiwan High Speed Rail is 66,3 km Taipei to Hsinchu, and has 2 intermediate stations - Banqiao and Taoyuan.
The Western Line has 17 intermediate stations on these 78,1 km, from Wanhua to North Hsinchu.

Tokaido Shinkansen is 76,7 km Tokyo to Odawara, with 2 intermediate stations - Shinagawa and Shin-Yokohama
Tokaido Main Line is 83,9 km Tokyo to Odawara, with 14 intermediate stations, from Shimbashi to Kamonomiya
Odakyu Line is 82,5 km Shinjuku to Odawara, with 45 (sic!) intermediate stations, from Minami-Shinjuku to Ashigara.

Compare Kanto and Jiangnan. Once you have passed Yokohama, less than 30 km from Tokyo, you will encounter only small towns and no big centres. Odawara has population of under 200 000, and is for a reason skipped by Nozomis. Whereas in Jiangnan... Suzhou is a huge centre, but Kunshan also is significant... you are not in a desert after passing Anting 29 km from Shanghai.

Just why would "almost all" passengers be concentrated in the few "major" stations? There should be huge numbers of passengers with origin or destination somewhere around the suburban/rural sprawl between Shanghai and, oh, Wuxi or Changzhou.

So how many stations would be needed between Shanghai and Suzhou to pick up and drop off the passengers of all that sprawl?


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> And the basic railway economics is that Kodama trains do run on Tokaido.
> 
> Anyway, looking at Jiangnan again.
> Shanghai-Suzhou is 84 km.
> Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway has 1 intermediate station: Kunshan South.
> Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railway has 7 intermediate stations in the same route:
> Suzhou Industrial Park
> Yangcheng Lake
> Kunshan South
> Huaqiao
> Anting North
> Nanxiang North
> Shanghai West
> Also 8th is under construction between Suzhou Industrial Park and Yangcheng Lake, named Weiting West.
> 
> On Shanghai-Beijing railway, I could only find trains stopping in 1 station, namely Kunshan without South.
> 
> But Anting without North is a named place on the Shanghai-Beijing railway - as suggested by the fact that the station on Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railway is Anting North.
> 
> Does it mean that an Anting Station exists on Shanghai-Beijing railway?
> Which trains stop there?
> 
> The names Nanxiang North and Weiting West likewise suggest existence of stations Nanxiang and Weiting.
> 
> Compare some other lines:
> Taipei to Hsinchu is 78,1 km on Western Line.
> The parallel Taiwan High Speed Rail is 66,3 km Taipei to Hsinchu, and has 2 intermediate stations - Banqiao and Taoyuan.
> The Western Line has 17 intermediate stations on these 78,1 km, from Wanhua to North Hsinchu.
> 
> Tokaido Shinkansen is 76,7 km Tokyo to Odawara, with 2 intermediate stations - Shinagawa and Shin-Yokohama
> Tokaido Main Line is 83,9 km Tokyo to Odawara, with 14 intermediate stations, from Shimbashi to Kamonomiya
> Odakyu Line is 82,5 km Shinjuku to Odawara, with 45 (sic!) intermediate stations, from Minami-Shinjuku to Ashigara.
> 
> Compare Kanto and Jiangnan. Once you have passed Yokohama, less than 30 km from Tokyo, you will encounter only small towns and no big centres. Odawara has population of under 200 000, and is for a reason skipped by Nozomis. Whereas in Jiangnan... Suzhou is a huge centre, but Kunshan also is significant... you are not in a desert after passing Anting 29 km from Shanghai.
> 
> Just why would "almost all" passengers be concentrated in the few "major" stations? There should be huge numbers of passengers with origin or destination somewhere around the suburban/rural sprawl between Shanghai and, oh, Wuxi or Changzhou.
> 
> So how many stations would be needed between Shanghai and Suzhou to pick up and drop off the passengers of all that sprawl?


You're getting stuck in the detail, and missing the bigger picture.

Most passengers will want to enter or exit at one of the main interchange points, because that's where most of the people live or can get to easily.

Then you have passengers from smaller stations travelling to one of the main interchange points for work or leisure. They are not normally travelling from one smaller station to another.

So in order to maximise the overall passenger benefit, it makes sense to skip some stations and reduce journey times for the vast majority of passengers.

It's simple to model the expected passenger flows.

And why are you looking at really short commuter rail lines less than 100km long?
Everywhere in the world, they always make a loss. Particularly since Chinese cities are being built up around the automobile which means that cars will normally be cheaper, faster and more comfortable than the train.

China has already had this discussion with the World Bank and other expert organisations. Rail is better suited to longer-distance trips which are profitable. Whilst buses and cars are faster, cheaper and more flexible for short trips.

As you said yourself, it's a sprawl between Nanjing-Shanghai which means fewer passengers. And given the short distances involved, that means it will usually be faster to drive than take the train.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> Most passengers will want to enter or exit at one of the main interchange points, because that's where most of the people live or can get to easily.


Not live. Most people live somewhere in the suburban/rural sprawl far from main stations - penthouses near station are too expensive for most.


Restless said:


> Then you have passengers from smaller stations travelling to one of the main interchange points for work or leisure.


Most work is again, somewhere in sprawl. Land in CBD is too expensive for factories.


Restless said:


> They are not normally travelling from one smaller station to another.


The origin and destination are often in sprawls, of different cities.


Restless said:


> So in order to maximise the overall passenger benefit, it makes sense to skip some stations and reduce journey times for the vast majority of passengers.


For some trains. It is also important to mix express and stopping trains.


Restless said:


> And why are you looking at really short commuter rail lines less than 100km long?


Because that is where CRH6s are vital. And CRH6 is a high speed trainset.


Restless said:


> China has already had this discussion with the World Bank and other expert organisations. Rail is better suited to longer-distance trips which are profitable. Whilst buses and cars are faster, cheaper and more flexible for short trips.


Yet China has built short distance railways, too. Like the newbuilt Shanghai Metro line 22 - 56 km.
Yet its performance is a joke. 
32 minutes nonstop is not that bad, but 60 minutes with 6 stops... absurdly slow.
Compare Helsinki-Hyvinkää. 59 km. An old railway - route opened back in 1861. Just 29 km is quadruple track - the rest is double track, has to be shared with express trains and freight.

R trains travel Helsinki-Hyvinkää in 41 minutes, with 5 intermediate stops. There is one R train per hour departing each hour 5:19 to 23:19. 
H trains still complete the trip in 49 minutes - and manage 9 intermediate stops - 2 minutes extra per stop. Again, 1 train each hour, same schedule 5:48 to 22:48.
Only T trains take 64 minutes, and make 20 intermediate stops. They only run early at night, 23:31 to 1:31.


Restless said:


> As you said yourself, it's a sprawl between Nanjing-Shanghai which means fewer passengers.


Enough to need trains.


Restless said:


> And given the short distances involved, that means it will usually be faster to drive than take the train.


Only if trains are poorly organized.
The H trains I just quoted sustain 86 km/h average with 5 stops in 59 km.
Cars are limited to what, 40...70 km/h on streets. Buses are limited to the same top speeds and also have to make intermediate stops.

Which is why CRH6 is important. With top speeds 160...250 km/h it could outrun the cars even on 120 km/h expressways, and with good acceleration and dwell times it could limit the time lost at stations to be caught up with.


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> Not live. Most people live somewhere in the suburban/rural sprawl far from main stations - penthouses near station are too expensive for most.
> 
> Most work is again, somewhere in sprawl. Land in CBD is too expensive for factories.
> 
> The origin and destination are often in sprawls, of different cities.
> 
> For some trains. It is also important to mix express and stopping trains.
> 
> Because that is where CRH6s are vital. And CRH6 is a high speed trainset.
> 
> Yet China has built short distance railways, too. Like the newbuilt Shanghai Metro line 22 - 56 km.
> Yet its performance is a joke.
> 32 minutes nonstop is not that bad, but 60 minutes with 6 stops... absurdly slow.
> Compare Helsinki-Hyvinkää. 59 km. An old railway - route opened back in 1861. Just 29 km is quadruple track - the rest is double track, has to be shared with express trains and freight.
> 
> R trains travel Helsinki-Hyvinkää in 41 minutes, with 5 intermediate stops. There is one R train per hour departing each hour 5:19 to 23:19.
> H trains still complete the trip in 49 minutes - and manage 9 intermediate stops - 2 minutes extra per stop. Again, 1 train each hour, same schedule 5:48 to 22:48.
> Only T trains take 64 minutes, and make 20 intermediate stops. They only run early at night, 23:31 to 1:31.
> 
> Enough to need trains.
> 
> Only if trains are poorly organized.
> The H trains I just quoted sustain 86 km/h average with 5 stops in 59 km.
> Cars are limited to what, 40...70 km/h on streets. Buses are limited to the same top speeds and also have to make intermediate stops.
> 
> Which is why CRH6 is important. With top speeds 160...250 km/h it could outrun the cars even on 120 km/h expressways, and with good acceleration and dwell times it could limit the time lost at stations to be caught up with.


I think you're really confused about the spatial geography involved. Serving everyone with a direct train from their homes to their workplace has a cost, which is why stations have feeder connections.

The optimal railway route would actually have the FEWEST number of stations required in order to run at full capacity - because each extra station imposes a time and cost penalty for the overall system.

And you're confused about why the CRH6 is important. It's not the top speed that is important, because even old conventional trains can reach 160km/h. It's the fact that it is an EMU trainset which has much better acceleration/deceleration performance - which means stopping at an extra station imposes less of a penalty in terms of time and line capacity.

And why on earth are you bring Line 22 into this? It's was converted from a railway line with some spare capacity, and now carries both passenger and freight trains.

And your comments on buses and cars don't make sense. You have to take into account BRT and express bus lanes, as well as expressways where cars can travel at 120km/h.


----------



## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> They are designed and plan to run at 380km/h, and as CRH380A has demonstrated it can manage much higher speed at 486km/h. If Liu Zhijun didn't fall Beijing-Shanghai HSR will operate at 380km/h by CRH380As. So yeah it's perfectly appropriate to call them CRH380. They were originally planned as CRH400 but was reduced to 380km/h to allow more safety margins.


It almost seems like a sore subject on this thread when I talk about running faster than 300km/h because the issue of wear and tear on the trains and high speed infrastructure comes up as the reason the CRH380 doesn't run at 380km/h, trains run at 300km/h on lines designed for 350km/h and lastly the CRH500 is just a concept because running it at 500km/h will be completely unfeasible due to physics and maintenance costs do to running so fast. 

I hope another speed up campaign comes up. It's too bad what happened with Liu Zhijun caused the momentum of High Speed rail in China to slow down.


----------



## Restless

FM 2258 said:


> It almost seems like a sore subject on this thread when I talk about running faster than 300km/h because the issue of wear and tear on the trains and high speed infrastructure comes up as the reason the CRH380 doesn't run at 380km/h, trains run at 300km/h on lines designed for 350km/h and lastly the CRH500 is just a concept because running it at 500km/h will be completely unfeasible due to physics and maintenance costs do to running so fast.
> 
> I hope another speed up campaign comes up. It's too bad what happened with Liu Zhijun caused the momentum of High Speed rail in China to slow down.


There's two sides to it.

First is how much extra it costs to run at 380km/h.

The other side is how much they can charge for these trains, which is dependent on how high wages are. And remember wages are almost certainly going to double well inside of the next 5years.


----------



## Tk.Alv-87

urbanfan89 said:


> Hopefully CRH trains will be running in Taiwan soon.
> 
> :naughty:


I'm more looking forward to the undersea highways linking Xiamen and Kaohsiung ; Fuzhou and Taipei


----------



## Fan Railer

Pansori said:


> So this is in effect the first exported HSR trains from China? It's like a 'trial' export after which we might see contracts signed with countries outside China's realm.


I wouldn't consider Hong Kong COMPLETELY outside of China, to be honest.


----------



## big-dog

more pictures of the MTR trains




























by 高铁见闻


----------



## Pansori

Would those be used only between Hong Kong and Shenzhen/Guangzhou? Would there be any direct Services between Hong Kong and Beijing?

The color scheme looks very playful for a train but I like it.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> Would those be used only between Hong Kong and Shenzhen/Guangzhou?


Yes:


railjournal said:


> The new trains will be used on high-speed shuttle services to Shenzhen and Guangzhou, which will require a total of 18 trains. MTR will operate the shuttles in a joint venture with a Chinese partner, which will provide the remaining nine trains. Long-distance services on the 142km ERL will be operated by MOR.


So the long distance trains will exist - and use different trains


Pansori said:


> Would there be any direct Services between Hong Kong and Beijing?


Not directly stated.
There are direct services between Longhua and Beijing now - but only 1 daily. 2 other daily trains travel Beijing-Guangzhou but end there. Also there is 1 direct service Taiyuan-Guangzhou, but it ends there so no train is direct Taiyuan-Longhua.

It is possible that when Longhua-Futian-Hong Kong railway opens, the direct train/s from Beijing still end at Longhua or go to Futian but not to Hong Kong, and direct trains from Hong Kong that do go long distance past Guangzhou go only to Changsha or Wuhan, but not to Beijing. It is possible, but is that the plan?


----------



## FM 2258

Are there future plans to run the Hong Kong section of the high speed railway faster than 200km/h? Too bad it's designed to run slower but maybe the section is too short to make much of a difference.


----------



## Pansori

FM 2258 said:


> Are there future plans to run the Hong Kong section of the high speed railway faster than 200km/h? Too bad it's designed to run slower but maybe the section is too short to make much of a difference.


Hong Kong section is 36km long. *Hypothetically* if you would run a train on the entire route at an *average speed* (which would never happen in reality) of 200km/h vs. 350km/h the time it would take would be the following:

200km/h: 10min. 48sec.
350km/h: 6min. 10 sec.

So essentially we would be talking about 10 minutes vs 6 minutes. Not very much of a difference, right?

However we all understand that this is just a hypothetical average speed which would never happen in real life.

*Realistic average speed* and corresponding trip times could be the following

~135-145km/h (on a 200km/h line) ~ 15-16min.
~150km/h (on a 350km/h line) ~ 14min.

My calculations are approximate and only based on comparable average speeds on other railway lines in China where trains go at 300 or 200km/h. However it gives some idea about possible trip times.
So the actual trip time would essentially be same whether it would be a 350km/h or a 200km/h line. This is simply because the distance is too short to take any advantage of 350km/h. Especially keeping in mind that the rolling stock would be identical i.e. a CRH/MTR-380 train. Very likely it would simply not even be able reach 300km/h on such a short stretch.

Therefore it makes absolutely no sense to build anything faster than a 200km/h line. In fact they could have built a 160km/h line and it would still not make very much of a difference.


----------



## Fan Railer

chornedsnorkack said:


> Not directly stated.
> There are direct services between Longhua and Beijing now - but only 1 daily. 2 other daily trains travel Beijing-Guangzhou but end there. Also there is 1 direct service Taiyuan-Guangzhou, but it ends there so no train is direct Taiyuan-Longhua.
> 
> It is possible that when Longhua-Futian-Hong Kong railway opens, the direct train/s from Beijing still end at Longhua or go to Futian but not to Hong Kong, and direct trains from Hong Kong that do go long distance past Guangzhou go only to Changsha or Wuhan, but not to Beijing. It is possible, but is that the plan?


The MTR website says service from the Kowloon Station will consist of the MTR run shuttles, and ALSO the mainland CRH services which would provide direct links to say, Beijing and Shanghai, among other places.
http://www.expressraillink.hk/en/ticketing-info/type-guangdong.html


> The section from Guangzhou South to Shenzhen North and the section between Shenzhen North to Futian is scheduled to open by the period between 2010 and 2012. Upon the opening of the Express Rail Link, passengers from Hong Kong will reach various Mainland cities without changing trains. The journey times between Hong Kong and the Mainland by train will be greatly shortened.


http://www.expressraillink.hk/en/ticketing-info/notice-to-passengers.html


> The Express Rail Link's design allows for a frequency of one train every three minutes.
> 
> In 2016, the first year after completion, it is estimated that there will be 99,000 passengers per day travelling between Hong Kong and the Mainland by the Express Rail Link. The number includes about 18,600 passengers travelling to Humen and Guangzhou, including business travelers visiting their businesses and attending meetings in the two cities, and passengers who will interchange to the Pearl River Delta area or other major cities in the Mainland.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Fan Railer said:


> The MTR website says service from the Kowloon Station will consist of the MTR run shuttles, and ALSO the mainland CRH services which would provide direct links to say, Beijing and Shanghai, among other places.
> http://www.expressraillink.hk/en/ticketing-info/type-guangdong.html:


This link is broken, because of the colon in the end. Working link is:

http://www.expressraillink.hk/en/ticketing-info/type-guangdong.html

16 named destinations, expressly including Beijing and Shanghai. 33 daily trains... 
Shall there be any other destinations, or shall the direct trains to and from Hong Kong be required to run nonstop between these 16 due to lack of customs at, say, Shijiazhuang, Hefei, Wenzhou or Ningbo stations?


----------



## xinxingren

Long Haul Service 15,000 passengers
The Express Rail Link will operate at high frequency and speed:
There will be 33 daily pairs of long-haul train to 16 major Mainland cities.

My arithmetic might be shonky, but I see a rather light loading of 227 pax per train ...


----------



## Fan Railer

xinxingren said:


> Long Haul Service 15,000 passengers
> The Express Rail Link will operate at high frequency and speed:
> There will be 33 daily pairs of long-haul train to 16 major Mainland cities.
> 
> My arithmetic might be shonky, but I see a rather light loading of 227 pax per train ...


Considering the average capacity of an 8 car train is 450-600 or so people, 227 per train leaving from Kowloon isn't too bad. I mean, it's not like you're going to want any room to pick up other paying passengers down the line...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Fan Railer said:


> Considering the average capacity of an 8 car train is 450-600 or so people, 227 per train leaving from Kowloon isn't too bad. I mean, it's not like you're going to want any room to pick up other paying passengers down the line...


That depends exactly on border crossing!
If all passengers cross the border into China at Kowloon West station, then they are already in China, so no objection to stopping anywhere in China and picking up passengers.
If, however, the passengers stay in Hong Kong until they pass Chinese border in Chongqing, Kunming etc. stations then obviously they can get only out - getting on would mean crossing the border twice.


----------



## big-dog

CRH 6F





































by 铁路小亨


----------



## Pansori

^^
Which CRH6 version is 200km/h (or 250km/h)?


----------



## Fan Railer

Pansori said:


> ^^
> Which CRH6 version is 200km/h (or 250km/h)?


According to this: https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/和谐号CRH6型电力动车组

it is the CRH6A.


----------



## Pansori

Fan Railer said:


> According to this: https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/和谐号CRH6型电力动车组
> 
> it is the CRH6A.


Got it. They are seemingly visually identical which kinda confused me.


----------



## FM 2258

Pansori said:


> Hong Kong section is 36km long. *Hypothetically* if you would run a train on the entire route at an *average speed* (which would never happen in reality) of 200km/h vs. 350km/h the time it would take would be the following:
> 
> 200km/h: 10min. 48sec.
> 350km/h: 6min. 10 sec.
> 
> So essentially we would be talking about 10 minutes vs 6 minutes. Not very much of a difference, right?
> 
> However we all understand that this is just a hypothetical average speed which would never happen in real life.
> 
> *Realistic average speed* and corresponding trip times could be the following
> 
> ~135-145km/h (on a 200km/h line) ~ 15-16min.
> ~150km/h (on a 350km/h line) ~ 14min.
> 
> My calculations are approximate and only based on comparable average speeds on other railway lines in China where trains go at 300 or 200km/h. However it gives some idea about possible trip times.
> So the actual trip time would essentially be same whether it would be a 350km/h or a 200km/h line. This is simply because the distance is too short to take any advantage of 350km/h. Especially keeping in mind that the rolling stock would be identical i.e. a CRH/MTR-380 train. Very likely it would simply not even be able reach 300km/h on such a short stretch.
> 
> Therefore it makes absolutely no sense to build anything faster than a 200km/h line. In fact they could have built a 160km/h line and it would still not make very much of a difference.


Thanks for this post and the calculations. This "short" line will do wonders for getting to Shenzhen quickly. Taking the metro to Futian checkpoint takes much longer than 14 min.


----------



## Pansori

FM 2258 said:


> Thanks for this post and the calculations. This "short" line will do wonders for getting to Shenzhen quickly. Taking the metro to Futian checkpoint takes much longer than 14 min.


Yes, if I remember correctly it takes well over 30 minutes from Hung Hom to Lo Wu (should be same to Lok Ma Chau). If they'll be using MTR380 trains to run to Shenzhen it will be essentially world's fanciest short-distance commuter trainsets.


----------



## Fan Railer

Pansori said:


> Got it. They are seemingly visually identical which kinda confused me.


Yea. The one that seems to stand out is the CRH6S.


----------



## foxmulder

Pansori said:


> If they'll be using MTR380 trains to run to Shenzhen it will be essentially world's fanciest short-distance commuter trainsets.


That's exactly what I was thinking.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> Hong Kong section is 36km long. *Hypothetically* if you would run a train on the entire route at an *average speed* (which would never happen in reality) of 200km/h vs. 350km/h the time it would take would be the following:
> 
> 200km/h: 10min. 48sec.
> 350km/h: 6min. 10 sec.
> 
> So essentially we would be talking about 10 minutes vs 6 minutes. Not very much of a difference, right?
> 
> However we all understand that this is just a hypothetical average speed which would never happen in real life.


My calculations:
Let´s make it acceleration to top speed at 1 m/s2, cruise at top speed, then deceleration at the same rate. 36 km total.
200 km/h - 56 m/s (3,3 km/min)
acceleration and deceleration 56 s each, cover 3,1 km combined
cruise 33 km, slightly under 10 minutes 
total slightly under 12 minutes
350 km/h - 97 m/s (5,8 km/min)
acceleration and deceleration 98 s each, cover 9,5 km combined
cruise 26,5 km, about 4 minutes 35 s
total 7 minutes 50 s
430 km/h, which happens to be the top speed of Shanghai Transrapid, very comparable distance of around 35 km - that is 120 m/s or 7,2 km/min
acceleration and deceleration 2 minutes each, cover 14,4 km combined
cruise 21,6 km, takes exactly 3 minutes
Total 7 minutes 0 seconds
In actual practice, Transrapid trip time is quoted at 7 minutes 32 seconds.

The calculated 50 second trip time difference between 430 km/h and 350 km/h is small. The 4 minute trip time difference between 350 km/h and 200 km/h is not so small.
Can anyone check and improve my calculations?


----------



## Pansori

How can the difference in your calculations be almost identical to my calculations with hypothetical 200 and 350 kmh average speed? There is clearly something wrong in your estimates.

OK I think I got it. With your calculations for 350kmh top speed the average speed is around 270kmh which is impossible. Are you sure you got the acceleration and deceleration numbers right?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> How can the difference in your calculations be almost identical to my calculations with hypothetical 200 and 350 kmh average speed? There is clearly something wrong in your estimates.
> 
> OK I think I got it. With your calculations for 350kmh top speed the average speed is around 270kmh which is impossible.


Break down my calculations:
9,5 km for acceleration and deceleration with average speed 175 km/h
26,5 km cruise with average speed 350 km/h.


Pansori said:


> Are you sure you got the acceleration and deceleration numbers right?


What is your offer for acceleration?
Note how close my computed time 7:00 at 430 km/h is to the observed time 7:32.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Can anyone check and improve my calculations?


You have an assumption of linear accelaration from standing to maximum. This is a reasonable approximation to the smoothed accelaration that occurs for mechanical reasons, and for passenger comfort. I saw in a sales blurb for CRH380 (sorry, can't find the link right now) a claimed emergency braking distance of 6km from 350km/hr. Assuming it can accelerate at the same rate without blowing fuses everywhere, on a 36km run this gives
2'4" each accelerate and decelerate, with 4'7" at top speed,
total run time 8'15" or 262 km/hr average.

Double the accelerate/decelerate distance for safety and comfort gives 
total run time 10'16" or 211km/hr average.

The numbers are pro rata similar to your quoted Transrapid timings. They also show that on short runs it's the starting and stopping that gobble up the time. This is an advantage the maglev has over trains that need to do one or two short runs before getting out on the trunk line.


----------



## Restless

xinxingren said:


> You have an assumption of linear accelaration from standing to maximum. This is a reasonable approximation to the smoothed accelaration that occurs for mechanical reasons, and for passenger comfort. I saw in a sales blurb for CRH380 (sorry, can't find the link right now) a claimed emergency braking distance of 6km from 350km/hr. Assuming it can accelerate at the same rate without blowing fuses everywhere, on a 36km run this gives
> 2'4" each accelerate and decelerate, with 4'7" at top speed,
> total run time 8'15" or 262 km/hr average.
> 
> Double the accelerate/decelerate distance for safety and comfort gives
> total run time 10'16" or 211km/hr average.
> 
> The numbers are pro rata similar to your quoted Transrapid timings. They also show that on short runs it's the starting and stopping that gobble up the time. This is an advantage the maglev has over trains that need to do one or two short runs before getting out on the trunk line.



There's a paper below which gives you all the operating details for the ICE design. There's speeds, timings and deceleration/acceleration rates.

http://www.railway-technical.com/Infopaper 3 High Speed Line Capacity v3.pdf

They go with a deceleration rate of 0.5 m/s2 for passenger comfort.

The long-distance CRH380 sets seem to have an acceleration rate of around 0.6 m/s2, whilst commuter sets elsewhere in the world have a much higher acceleration rate.


----------



## Pansori

^^
So what would be a realistic average speed in the Hong Kong territory of the express link?


----------



## saiho

Pansori said:


> Yes, if I remember correctly it takes well over 30 minutes from Hung Hom to Lo Wu (should be same to Lok Ma Chau). If they'll be using MTR380 trains to run to Shenzhen it will be essentially world's fanciest short-distance commuter trainsets.


I'm wondering perhaps it's better for MTR to use CRH6A's as short haul service. The trains are more suited towards shorter haul and dwell situations and the MTR380 can't even max out on speed in the HK-SZ tunnels while the CRH6 is just right.


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## FM 2258

^^

CRH6's would only limit MTR to running between Kowloon and Futian correct? Do they plan to run short routes like that or take the trains all the way to Guangzhou South and back to Kowloon?


----------



## mrmoopt

Having a standard 380 fleet for both CRH and MTR allows for crew/train substitution if required.

It also enables extensions to short haul services should a CRH long haul service be cancelled by ad hoc.

MTR buying the CRH6 would not allow flexibility in operations.


----------



## saiho

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> CRH6's would only limit MTR to running between Kowloon and Futian correct? Do they plan to run short routes like that or take the trains all the way to Guangzhou South and back to Kowloon?


The MTR plans huge amount of shuttle service to the PRD. There will be a short haul train terminating at Shenzhen North every 15-minutes in the beginning. I consider their ~100,000 pax/day estimate to be a little conservative. In 2016 Central and Futian CBDs will be some of the biggest and most prominent office districts in the world, fed by some of the busiest metro systems. 

But here is a thought, the Guangzhou-Dougguang-Shenzhen RTS will initially end in Qinghai CBD with an option to extend to Futian CBD. What if you (literally) extend that idea further and interline that to the XRL, now Central, Qinghai, Nanshan, Shenwan and Futian CBDs will be connected. Now many +200m, Supertalls, Megatalls is that connecting?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

saiho said:


> The MTR plans huge amount of shuttle service to the PRD. There will be a short haul train terminating at Shenzhen North every 15-minutes in the beginning.


Right now, Shenzhen-Guangzhou D train services get as frequent as 6 in rush ours (8:xx, 9:xx, 18:xx). Longua-Guangzhou South go up to 4 (15:xx). But those services are badly irregular, e. g. the 15:xx trains to Guangzhou South are :00, :20, :35, :50 - no memorable pattern.


saiho said:


> But here is a thought, the Guangzhou-Dougguang-Shenzhen RTS will initially end in Qinghai CBD with an option to extend to Futian CBD. What if you (literally) extend that idea further and interline that to the XRL, now Central, Qinghai, Nanshan, Shenwan and Futian CBDs will be connected. Now many +200m, Supertalls, Megatalls is that connecting?


Good idea!

The problems with existing railways are:
Guangzhou South location sucks. It is in an empty southern suburb 21 km from Guangzhou and thus the old centre.
The 102 km Guangzhou-Longhua railway is, at 350 km/h, too fast. Making a stop takes a lot of time, and a stopping train would get in the way of a following nonstop one.
There are too few stations. Just 3 in these 102 km. Now Humen is important - it is the second biggest town. But Qingsheng is in the empty Nansha district. Compare Guangzhou-Zhuhai - there are 12 stations in 97 km between Guangzhou South and Tangjiawan, 97 km, and 13th is under construction.
For comparison, how about the Kowloon-Canton railway? 147 km. But for some reason, no train makes more than 4 stops there.
So how about CRH6 service connecting Hong Kong to either Kowloon-Canton railway or some new line, actually both would be needed, with actual frequent stops?


----------



## hmmwv

saiho said:


> I'm wondering perhaps it's better for MTR to use CRH6A's as short haul service. The trains are more suited towards shorter haul and dwell situations and the MTR380 can't even max out on speed in the HK-SZ tunnels while the CRH6 is just right.


MTR can certainly buy some CRH6 to run those shuttles, it's designed to tolerate the wear and tear associated with frequent stop and go service, and the extra door will allow faster boarding and disembarking speed. The MTR380 can still be used on longer routes that extend farther outside HK.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> MTR can certainly buy some CRH6 to run those shuttles, it's designed to tolerate the wear and tear associated with frequent stop and go service, and the extra door will allow faster boarding and disembarking speed. The MTR380 can still be used on longer routes that extend farther outside HK.


Can CRH6 travel beyond Longhua towards Guangzhou South?

CRH6 has a lower top speed. Sure, the CRH6 can accelerate faster than MTR380 towards Humen, but its top speed is just 220 km/h. Whereas MTR380 accelerating slower can continue to the 300 km/h top speed of Shenzhen-Beijing high speed railway - and then the CRH6 gets in the way.

On the other hand - Longhua-Xiamen high speed railway is limited to 200 km/h. Shall there be commuter services from Kowloon West that reverse at Longhua towards Huizhou?


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## hmmwv

It sure can, but then we lose the advantage of having a two tiered train system. I think CRH6 should stay on the Shenzhen-Hong Kong line for shuttle service, while MTR380 is used for travel beyong Shenzhen.


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## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> It sure can, but then we lose the advantage of having a two tiered train system. I think CRH6 should stay on the Shenzhen-Hong Kong line for shuttle service,


But then we lose the advantage of having CRH6 and its high acceleration.
Towards Guangzhou North, the distances are:
Futian - 31 - total 31
Longhua - 8 - 39
Guangming - 17 - 56
Humen - 36 - 92
Qingsheng - 19 - 111
Guangzhou South - 31 - 142
Guangzhou North - 45 - 187

The stations from Longhua towards Xiamen start:
Pingshan
Huizhou South
Huidong
Houmen
Shanwei

Now Shanwei is clearly outside Pearl river delta. But what types of trains should carry commuter services like Hong Kong-Guangming or Hong Kong-Huidong?


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Shall there be commuter services from Kowloon West that reverse at Longhua towards Huizhou?


Not while I'm Minister of Railways. :banana: 
If it's a "commuter"/"shuttle" service then people can just get off one train, cross to the other side of the platform and get on another train going someplace else. That's how commuter/metro systems usually work. And if it's HSR that's more reason to be careful about track layout at junction stations.


----------



## big-dog

I guess CRH6F is designed for commuter rails



> *Chengdu commuter rail Line 18 will use CRH6F*
> 
> Proposed Line 18: Chengdu South Railway Station to new airport
> 58 km (23 km underground), 8 stations, 160 kmph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by 高铁见闻


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> I guess CRH6F is designed for commuter rails


Which trains shall serve Chengdu-Mianyang-Leshan and Chengdu-Pujiang high speed railways?


----------



## slash0r

CRH6F comes in two versions, for commuter service (160kph top speed) and for high-speed lines (220kph top speed).


----------



## saiho

big-dog said:


> I guess CRH6F is designed for commuter rails


The entire CRH6 series is more or less designed for commuter/regional service. the CRH6A, CRH6F, CRH6S are all for commuter type applications with CRHA doing serving Express/Non-Stop/Regional Rail roles and the CRH6F performing Local/All Stop roles. CRH6S is for urban rail/shuttle service


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## hmmwv

The three doors and standing room is a clear sign that it's designed for commuter service.


----------



## xinxingren

New experimental High Speed vehicle seen at Guangzhou Central 2013 March 07.


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## Fan Railer

xinxingren said:


> New experimental High Speed vehicle seen at Guangzhou Central 2013 March 07.


what the hell are we looking at? it's impossible to tell anything significant from this.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Fan Railer said:


> what the hell are we looking at? it's impossible to tell anything significant from this.


You're seeing an airplane... apparently you are not seeing the joke :lol:


----------



## Fan Railer

Silly_Walks said:


> You're seeing an airplane... apparently you are not seeing the joke :lol:


I saw the plane. I just didn't think it was that funny. lol


----------



## Silly_Walks

Fan Railer said:


> I saw the plane. I just didn't think it was that funny. lol


Well, that's a whole other story :lol:

From your post it seems you were trying to discern a train in that picture. :cheers:


----------



## big-dog

CRH 380CL by Luochunxiao


----------



## ll2800116

much better than 380B


----------



## Sopomon

^^

It's essentially the same, with a lengthened nose


----------



## ll2800116

really don;t like 380B , just ugly , so is the crh1


----------



## hmmwv

Sopomon said:


> ^^
> 
> It's essentially the same, with a lengthened nose


The lengthened nose made all the difference. :lol:


----------



## Silly_Walks

ll2800116 said:


> really don;t like 380B , just ugly , so is the crh1


You registered here just for 2 posts dissing the 380B?


----------



## Silver Swordsman

^ :lol:

I do like the CRH3C/CRH380B better. The "winged" lights just look ridiculous.


----------



## Sopomon

And I'm the only one who thinks it's a solid design it seems


----------



## ll2800116

yes. in the family fo 380 , 380A is still the best , both the look and the quality, the look of 380 B and 3C just looks so unconfortable . sorry , i'm happy that the 380C come out , hope that it can kick all the 380B away


----------



## FM 2258

The CRH3 is my favorite so naturally also like the 380B and 380C. CRH5 is my second favorite, CRH500 the third. :cheers:


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> The CRH3 is my favorite so naturally also like the 380B and 380C. *CRH5* is my second favorite, CRH500 the third. :cheers:


You like da donkey? You are an odd one, my friend.:lol:


----------



## fanspy

380A is the best looking one


----------



## Fan Railer

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...-7-3-billion-in-bids-for-high-speed-rail.html


> CSR Corp. (1766) and China CNR (601299) Corp., the nation’s two biggest trainmakers, won bids for 258 bullet trains worth as much as 44.3 billion yuan ($7.3 billion) as China’s high-speed rail network opens new lines.
> 
> CSR estimated it won bids totaling 25.9 billion yuan to make 83 bullet trains with maximum speeds of 350 kilometers per hour (217 miles per hour) and 78 trains with maximum speeds of 250 kph for state-owned China Railway Corp., it said in an e-mailed statement late yesterday, citing calculations based on previous bidding prices.


Unfortunately no specifics on which models were ordered yet. More info:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...s-258-high-speed-trains-from-csr-and-cnr.html


> Lot 1 comprises 78 250km/h trains, which will be supplied in eight batches by CSR Sifang. Lot 2 comprises 180 350km/h sets, and is divided between CNR Changchun (27 trains), CSR Sifang (83 trains) and CNR Tangshan (70 trains).
> 
> The total value of the two lots is reportedly around Yuan 44bn ($US 7.3bn).


----------



## hmmwv

I wonder if the 78 250km/h trainsets will include any CRH6.


----------



## xinxingren

They'll need something to feed all the new commuter lines sprawling over the Pearl River Delta.


----------



## saiho

xinxingren said:


> They'll need something to feed all the new commuter lines sprawling over the Pearl River Delta.


Most of the commuter lines will only go up to 200km/h with most local trains running on them being CRH6S or CRH6F's clocking only up to 160km/h, so they would not be counted as high speed trains in the order.


----------



## FM 2258

saiho said:


> Most of the commuter lines will only go up to 200km/h with most local trains running on them being CRH6S or CRH6F's clocking only up to 160km/h, so they would not be counted as high speed trains in the order.


"Commuter" lines at 160 and 200km/h really is just awesome. China is doing something great with their railway system. 


Any word on what's going on with the CRH/CIT500? Will that train ever run on tracks outside the test shed? It will be a shame if it's only designed to run tests and look pretty.


----------



## k.k.jetcar

saiho said:


> Most of the commuter lines will only go up to 200km/h with most local trains running on them being CRH6S or CRH6F's clocking only up to 160km/h, so they would not be counted as high speed trains in the order.


Are the riders on these high speed commuter lines going to be charged existing commuter rates, or are they going to be hit by a premium? (by definition most commuters are using season tickets/passes, which are discounted- though the infrastructure to support 160km/h+ running is more expensive than standard lines).


----------



## big-dog

Shanghai Jinshan Rail (Line 22) charges low price like normal commuter rail, RMB 3 ~ 10.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> "Commuter" lines at 160 and 200km/h really is just awesome. China is doing something great with their railway system.
> 
> 
> Any word on what's going on with the CRH/CIT500? Will that train ever run on tracks outside the test shed? It will be a shame if it's only designed to run tests and look pretty.


It's a full on test train prototype so it'll be confined to the test track most of the time, since it didn't run any full speed tests on recently opened 350km/h lines I doubt we'll ever see it run on a regular line. I hope I'm wrong though.


----------



## stoneybee

hmmwv said:


> It's a full on test train prototype so it'll be confined to the test track most of the time, since it didn't run any full speed tests on recently opened 350km/h lines I doubt we'll ever see it run on a regular line. I hope I'm wrong though.


I too hope you are wrong on this one but I think it is just a matter of time. China today is not in the rush mode anymore, so we will have to wait a bit more time before this thing comes out to play but I believe it will come out to play eventually.


----------



## big-dog

500kmph train will change the game again. Imagine traveling Beijing-Shanghai in 2.5 hours. Who will go to airport to travel the same distance while you can get to downtown directly in a shorter time? 

But I wonder if CIT500 could run on existing HSR tracks. If not is it cost efficient to build a brand new one given that most major cities are getting HSR connections?


----------



## Silly_Walks

big-dog said:


> Who will go to airport to travel the same distance while you can get to downtown directly in a shorter time?


Hongqiao airport is outside downtown, while Hongqiao train station is inside downtown? :lol:


----------



## big-dog

Silly_Walks said:


> Hongqiao airport is outside downtown, while Hongqiao train station is inside downtown? :lol:


At least Beijiing South is closer to town than Beijing Airport. As for Shanghai, not all flight takes off from Hongqiao airport, more of them are still using Pudong Airport which is quite far.


----------



## big-dog

Two new CRH trains from lcx341

*CRH3A*





*CRH3G*


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> 500kmph train will change the game again. Imagine traveling Beijing-Shanghai in 2.5 hours. Who will go to airport to travel the same distance while you can get to downtown directly in a shorter time?


Remember that average speed is different from top service speed. Chuo Shinkansen is to have top service speed 505 km/h, and the 286 km Shinagawa to Nagoya should take 40 minutes, so average speed just 429 km/h.
At that speed, Beijing-Shanghai should be done in 3,1 hours, not 2,5.


big-dog said:


> But I wonder if CIT500 could run on existing HSR tracks. If not is it cost efficient to build a brand new one given that most major cities are getting HSR connections?


Can run on existing tracks at all, can run on existing tracks at high speed, or can run on existing tracks past slower trains?

Is Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway full already, or is there space for more trainsets on the line?


----------



## Sopomon

big-dog said:


> Two new CRH trains from lcx341


Christ, CNR should be banned from designing their rolling stock and leave the aesthetic work to CSR. They look like chipmunks


----------



## ll2800116

Sopomon said:


> Christ, CNR should be banned from designing their rolling stock and leave the aesthetic work to CSR. They look like chipmunks


 totally agree


----------



## Traceparts

Sopomon said:


> Christ, CNR should be banned from designing their rolling stock and leave the aesthetic work to CSR. They look like *chipmunks*


more like snake ^^


----------



## big-dog

Traceparts said:


> more like snake ^^


snake with its tongue :lol:



big-dog said:


> Two new CRH trains from lcx341
> 
> *CRH3A*


----------



## Palali

Does China have Maglev Trainsets or developing Maglev Trains ?


----------



## Silver Swordsman

The ugly is strong in this one.


----------



## hmmwv

big-dog said:


> snake with its tongue :lol:


^^ WIN


----------



## big-dog

Palali said:


> Does China have Maglev Trainsets or developing Maglev Trains ?


It happened that yesterday was the public opening day for the low-medium-speed Maglev designed by CSR.










by 中国南车株机


----------



## hmmwv

Also the Class 220 series (220,221,222).


----------



## Pansori

And what about the concentrated propulsion ones?


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> And what about the concentrated propulsion ones?


Class 43 (Intercity 125). The difference between a traditional loco pulled train and a concentrated propulsion DMU is that the latter is designed as a fixed trainset with at least two locos at each end.


----------



## Pansori

But isn't that like technology from the 70's?


----------



## hmmwv

^^ Much older than the 70s.


----------



## Pansori

^^
Got it. It seems to be a somewhat obsolete technology then.


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> ^^
> Got it. It seems to be a somewhat obsolete technology then.


A cheap and mature technology, just like other loco pulled trains that dated back to the 1800s, we don't think they are obsolete because they serve their purpose well.


----------



## big-dog

CRH2 at Guangzhou South







by YJC_


----------



## hmmwv

^^ Aha, one of the not so common 350km/h capable CRH2C.


----------



## big-dog

hmmwv said:


> ^^ Aha, one of the not so common 350km/h capable CRH2C.


And there are also CRH380D on Guangzhou South platform (G6111 Changsha South-Guangzhou South)













by YJC_


----------



## hmmwv

What a gem at Guangzhou, this is only the second CRH380D trainset!


----------



## Pansori

In my opinion the best looking HSR trainset ever.


----------



## Fan Railer

Pansori said:


> In my opinion the best looking HSR trainset ever.


I concur.


----------



## big-dog

night pictures of CRH3A CJ-1001










by 龙胆豪威


----------



## foxmulder

Do we know the current number of operational and on order high speed train sets?


----------



## flankerjun

foxmulder said:


> Do we know the current number of operational and on order high speed train sets?





Code:


China railway Corporation release some data about railway update to 2013.

locomotive：20,835, electrical loco:52.1%,Disel loco:47.8%.HX serises :7017 
passenger coach:58,820 
freight coach:688,042
total railway length:103,144 KM （64,090.7 miles）
double track lines:48,274 KM (29,996 miles)
Electrified lines: 55,811 KM (34679.3 miles)
amount of bullet train: 1308


----------



## flankerjun

*Finally,CRH380D begin to carry passengers,at Wuhan-Guangzhou HSR line,hoping one day they will run in USA*


----------



## Tower Dude

Thanks flankerjun,:cheers:!! I love the Zifero series there are not enough pictures of them around! Also I would love them to run in the USA as well but Siemens seems to be pretty buddy buddy rail authorities in the US at the moment so it seems kinda unlikely.hno:


----------



## flankerjun

Also the CIT500 has reached Nanchang,and will begin to test Nanchang-Changsha line,but will not to hit the new speed record,the top speed will no more than 400KM/H.


----------



## foxmulder

flankerjun said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> China railway Corporation release some data about railway update to 2013.
> 
> locomotive：20,835, electrical loco:52.1%,Disel loco:47.8%.HX serises :7017
> passenger coach:58,820
> freight coach:688,042
> total railway length:103,144 KM （64,090.7 miles）
> double track lines:48,274 KM (29,996 miles)
> Electrified lines: 55,811 KM (34679.3 miles)
> amount of bullet train: 1308


Thanks. 1308, it is.


----------



## foxmulder

flankerjun said:


> Also the CIT500 has reached Nanchang,and will begin to test Nanchang-Changsha line,but will not to hit the new speed record,the top speed will no more than 400KM/H.


Never say never


----------



## k.k.jetcar

The Zefiro is a nice looking trainset, too bad the window arrangement is such that some passengers are sitting next to a wall rather than a window.


----------



## flankerjun

*CIT500 leave Qingdao,on the way to Nanchang.*


----------



## flankerjun




----------



## Tk.Alv-87

flankerjun said:


> *CIT500 leave Qingdao,on the way to Nanchang.*


WOW! Finally!! .. For the past 3 years, I've been expecting this! :applause:


----------



## flankerjun




----------



## flankerjun

*the left one bombardier new train Zefiro 250NG*









a new shape,like a mini zefiro 380,material have changed from stainless steel to Aluminum,improve the terrible gas-tightness,expect to see it in Sep.


----------



## big-dog

They should hurry up the building of new trains with year-on-year ridership increase and new lines putting into operation


----------



## foxmulder

flankerjun said:


>


Nice.. Hope they are shooting a documentary. Wait scratch that! Documentaries.


----------



## big-dog

CIT500 arrived Nanchang, go for test run


by @高铁见闻


----------



## FM 2258

^^

This is the train I've been waiting to see out in the open.....whoooo hooo! The "flagship" of the CRH network. I hope they make some good speed and efficiency barriers with this amazing looking machine!!!!!! :cheers:

:dance:


----------



## big-dog

The new CRH380D photos

on G6112 Guangzhou South-Changsha



























pics by 小小willion


----------



## flankerjun

*Look at this new train！！
it can run both at national rail line or metro line in cities.national rail line in China is AC 25KV,the metro line is DC 1.5KV.*


----------



## Tk.Alv-87

I really wanna see CIT500 running at over 600 km/h one day!


----------



## Pansori

Is that CIT500 trainset fundamentally different from any of the CRH380? I thought it's just a different design of the driver carriage.


----------



## flankerjun

Pansori said:


> Is that CIT500 trainset fundamentally different from any of the CRH380? I thought it's just a different design of the driver carriage.


new shape,the head and tail are different,new Bogie for higher speed,much more power,22800KW for 6 cars,and air brakes.


----------



## big-dog

It's not high speed (160kmph) but this train made by CNR is China's first commuter rail train.



flankerjun said:


> *Look at this new train！！
> it can run both at national rail line or metro line in cities.national rail line in China is AC 25KV,the metro line is DC 1.5KV.*


----------



## Tk.Alv-87

^^ To be used in which city?


----------



## big-dog

^^ Beijing. 

Most likely it'll be used by 68km Beijing Pingguo line.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> It's not high speed (160kmph) but this train made by CNR is China's first commuter rail train.


Is CRH6 then NOT a commuter rail train?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Thank you very much! 
I see it is that the previous order was revised down:
China issues tenders for 232 high-speed trains International Railway Journal

.
Take this opportunity to tell you just wrote the wikipedia entry in Spanish over High Speed rail in Chine. Surprisingly it was not written. 
It has many data over lines and trains, so I would like you read it and tell me if you see any mistakes.

Alta Velocidad en China

A greeting


----------



## foxmulder

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Thank you very much!
> I see it is that the previous order was revised down:
> China issues tenders for 232 high-speed trains International Railway Journal
> 
> .
> Take this opportunity to tell you just wrote the wikipedia entry in Spanish over High Speed rail in Chine. Surprisingly it was not written.
> It has many data over lines and trains, so I would like you read it and tell me if you see any mistakes.
> 
> Alta Velocidad en China
> 
> A greeting


Revised down? The list greenlion send has *more than 300 sets*. And news article you send mentions "only" 232.


----------



## Gusiluz

This is the provisional order was later revised down: from 258 to 232, which are the first part of the *greenlion* post. The 70 trainsets of the second part of the post are of a later order, as he himself.


Gusiluz said:


> ...
> The 10/12/2013 placed an new order for 258 trains with an investment of 5,615 M € (44.3 billion yuan or $ 7.3 billion). 180 to 350 km / h and 78 to 250 km / h.
> CSR (25.9 billion yuan) would manufacture 83 to 350 km / h and 78 to 250 km / h. CNR (18.4 billion yuan) for 97 to 350 km / h: Changchun (27) and Tangshan (70).
> China orders 258 high-speed trains IRJ
> China Trainmakers' High-Speed Rail Total $ 7.3 Billion Orders
> 
> This order was downgraded on 08/22/2014, leaving at 57 to 250 km / h and 175 to 350 km / h.
> China issues tenders for 232 high-speed trains International Railway Journal
> 
> 
> My question is: *do we know more about this order ?, how he fit into the latest series ?.*
> 
> CRH3A CNR 200 km / h 8 cars 5,120 kW 202 meters
> CRH3G CNR 250 km / h to 16 cars
> CRH2H 250 km / h to 16 cars
> 
> *Missing many details*: train orders for serie, engines, seats, power, length, weight and cost.
> 
> Apart 9 CRH380A to MTR Hong Kong were sold.
> 
> Previous HST are these (in Spanish, but with pictures):
> and the newest, these


Trains supplied according to the wikipedia entry in English are not very updated. 
On how many CRH1 250NG already made​​? 
Can finished deliver of 70 CRH380D? 

A greeting and thanks advance


----------



## greenlion

Current in operation:

CRH1A: 123 sets (984 cars)
CRH1B: 24 sets (384 cars)
CRH1E: 15 sets (240 cars)

CRH2A: 122 sets: (976 cars)
CRH2ATX: 100 sets (800 cars)
CRH2B: 10 sets (160 cars)
CRH2C: 56 sets (448 cars)
CRH2E: 19 sets (304 cars)

CIT Trains: CRH2-010A, CRH2-061C, CRH2-068C, CRH2-150C

CRH3C: 80 sets (640 cars)

CRH5A: 140 sets (1120 cars)
CRH5ATX: 10 sets (80 cars)

CRH6A: 5 sets (40 cars) 
CRH6F: 1 set (8 cars)

CIT trains: CIT001

CRH380A: 40 sets (320 cars)
CRH380ATX: 43 sets (344 cars)
CRH380AL: 96 sets (1536 cars)

CIT trains: CIT400A CRH380A-0203

CRH380B: 35 sets (280 cars)
CRH380BTX: 26 sets (208 cars)
CRH380BK: 41 sets (328 cars)
XRH380BL: 114 sets (1824 cars)

CIT trains: CIT400B 

CRH380CL: 25 sets (400 cars)
CRH380D: 3 sets (24 cars)


----------



## big-dog

It's said this is the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hongkong HSR train: CRH380 EMU, pic taken at CSR


(GZRWS)


----------



## Gusiluz

*@greenlion*

Thank you very much for the information !!! 
Any (many) questions:

24 CRH1B were not 20, less the 46?
15 CRH1E were not 20? 
122 CRH2A were not 100, less the 10?
56 CRH2C. 60 less 2 CIT and the 150, prototype of CRH380A?
40 CRH380A be 39 because the CRH380A-001 is as CIT?
3 CRH380D have long pointed 20?
114 CRH380BL why not 115?

CIT, does not match my the CIT380AJ-0203 I think it was the CRH2-150C:
-CIT001 (CRH5-000) basado en el CRH5 (ETR 600 Pendolino de Alstom). 250 km/h. 06/06/2008. CNR
-CRH2-010A (Dr. Bai, de color blanco) basado en el CRH2 (Kawasaki E2). 250 km/h. 03/2007. CSR
-CRH2-061C (fue el prototipo del CRH2C desde el 22/12/2007) (evolución del Kawasaki E2). 350 km/h. CSR
-CRH2-068C (evolución del Kawasaki E2). 350 km/h. 01/2009. CSR
-CIT380AJ-0203 (Dr. Huang, amarillo, fue el CRH2-150C, prototipo del CRH380A desde el 04/2010) (evolución del CRH2 y del Kawasaki E2). 350 km/h. 11/2010. CSR
-CIT400A (CRH380A-001, CRH400A-001) (evolución del CRH2 y del Kawasaki E2 con 7 M 1 R). 380 km/h. 22/02/2011. CSR
-CIT400B (CRH380B-002, CRH400B-001) (evolución del CRH380C y del Velaro C 
-CIT500 (Higher Speed Experimental Train). 23/12/2011. CSR

From CRH5ATX are not in service, right? 
What ATX means?
Neither I can find last orders.

Thank you very much again


----------



## foxmulder

big-dog said:


> It's said this is the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hongkong HSR train: CRH380 EMU, pic taken at CSR
> 
> 
> (GZRWS)


We have seen this like one year ago.


----------



## greenlion

First set of CRH1-NG (Zefiro 250 NG), the CRH1-169A at BST factory









the CRH1 Family

right to left
CRH1A - nickname metro car
CRH1E - Locust
CRH380D - Cobra
CRH1ANG


----------



## greenlion

China CRC announced new rules for CRH train identifier,

for CRH1/2/3/5/6

Will be named as

CRH XX-XXXX

First X means factory number
1 - BST Qingdao
2 - CSR Sifang
3 - CNR Tangshan
5 - CNR Changchun
6 - Intecity trains manufactured by CSR Sufang and CSR Puzhen

Second X means trainset type

A - 200-250 km/h 8 car sets
B - 200-250 km/h 16 car sets
C - 300-350 km/h 8 car sets
D - 300-350 km/h 16 car sets
E - 200-250 km/h 16 car sets with sleeping car
F - 160 km/h 8 car intercity trainsets
G - 200-250 km/h 8 car sets for high mountain and cold type
H - 200-250 km/h 8 car sets for sand wind type
J - CIT Trains

G=GH, H=KFS

for CRH380A/B/C/D

Will be Named as
CRH380XX-XXXX

First X means tecnology platform

A - CSR Sifang
B - CNR Changchun and CNR Tangshan
C - CNR Changchun
D - BST Qingdao

Second X means trainset type
G - for high mountain and cold type
H - for sand wind type
J - CIT Trains
L - 16 car trainsets
M - test train for higher speed level

TX means new destination ordered by CRC, different with original destination


----------



## Gusiluz

By completing the only Bombardier HST that is not manufactured in China (how odd that we even use the same photo  ):


Gusiluz said:


> En este imagen de Bombardier verás las diferencias:
> 
> 
> Están por orden cronológico de derecha a izquierda.
> El de la derecha es el CRH1A (5M 3R) y CRH1B (10M 6R). 2007/14. Los 40 primeros son para 220 km/h y el resto (86 A y 20 B) para 250. Basado en el Regina.
> El siguiente es el CRH1E (10M 6R). 2009/11. 20 trenes con literas para 250 km/h. Basado en el Zefiro 250.
> Luego está el CRH380D (5M 3R). 2013/14. 70 trenes para 380 km/h que no están autorizados a pasar de 300. Basado en el Zefiro 380.
> Y el primero es el nuevo CRH1A 250NG (5M 3R). 2014/1?. 60 trenes para 250 km/h. Basado en la familia Zefiro 250 (evolución del CRH1E).
> 
> En cuanto a TAVs, en la imagen solo falta el ETR 1000 italiano (todos los demás son chinos, fabricados por Bombardier Sifang Transportation ltd en Qingdao, Norte de China:
> 
> 
> El Frecciarossa 1000 está basado en el V300Zefiro, se realiza en cooperación con AnsaldoBreda (Bombardier solo tiene el 30 %, participa más en el ICx alemán: 37 %). 4 M 4 R 2016/17. 50 trenes para 300 km/h, con idea de llegar a 360 km/h en velocidad comercial.


Thank you very much *greenlion *for the new nomenclature will be studied.

I just read the last order in the IRJ:

"175 high-speed trains with a maximum speed of 350km/h, and 57 trains with a maximum speed of 250km/h

The contract for the 350km/h trains was split into nine packages, with CSR Sifang securing packages to deliver 93 trains, CNR Tangshan 50, and CNR Changchun 32. In addition CSR Sifang was selected to supply the 57 250km/h trains.
CRIC has also issued a tender for another 70 high-speed trains. CNR Changchun and CSR Sifang are the preferred bidders for 10 trains which will have a maximum speed of 250km/h and will be specially adapted to cope with sandstorms. The tender also includes 35 250km/h and 25 350km/h trains which must be suitable for operation in cold climates. CNR Changchun is the preferred bidder for these trains".

"Just" need wedding orders with series and features.


----------



## flankerjun

new orders：
locomotive 7200KW 90
350KM/H train 40
250KM/H train35


----------



## Gusiluz

We were trying the issue of technology transfer to China in Mexico HS thread, but I think this is the place. 

An article of The Jamestown Foundation: “Chinese High Speed Rail Leapfrog”, development this summer:
http://www.jamestown.org/programs/c...news]=42583&tx_ttnews[backPid]=758&no_cache=1


----------



## stephendavion

In little over a decade China has progressed from a high-speed rail novice to the host of the *world's largest high-speed network*. Now the country is focussing on foreign markets, where lower costs and efficient construction are making its companies a match for the high-speed specialists of Europe and Japan.


----------



## greenlion

2013 orders

on April 2013, the CRC orderd 10 sets of CRH5H from CNR Changchun

On August 15th 2013, the China Railway Corporation (CRC) ordered 159 trainsets of High Spped trains includes:

91 sets of CRH2A (CRH2ATX) from CSR Sifang 11,739 million RMB
46 sets of CRH380BG from CNR Changchun 9,430 million RMB
17 sets of CRH380A (CRH380AE27)from CSR Sifang 3,179 million RMB
5 sets of CRH380BK from CNR Tangshan 775 million RMB

On December 4th 2013, CRC ordered 314 trainsets of high Speed Trains includes:

78 sets of CRH2A (CRH2ATX) from CSR Sifang
83 sets of CRH380A (CRH380AE27) from CSR Sifang
27 sets of CRH380BK from CNR Changchun
70 sets of CRH380BK from CNR Tangshan
46 sets of CRH380BG from CNR Changchun
10 sets of CRH5H from CNR Changchun


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Thank you very much for the information


----------



## greenlion

on April 2013, the CRC orderd 10 sets of CRH5H from CNR Changchun for Lanzhou - Urmqi line

in early operation, there will be 16 sets of CRH2H, 2 sets of CRH380AL, 10 sets of CRH5H operating in the Lanzhou - Urmqi line


----------



## hmmwv

^^ For those not familiar with these two models the H in CRH2H and CRH5H stands for "Han" (cold climate) that are specially designed to operate in extreme weather conditions (cold, sand storms, etc). I assume the CRH380AL will not operate in the winter.


----------



## greenlion

Video: CRH3A, CRH3G, MTR380A testing
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzIyNzY2NzMy.html
Video: CRH2H testing
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzk0MjMyOTU2.html
Video: CRH6 official advertisment film
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzYyMjQ5ODYw.html


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Those videos were amazing. I love seeing videos of these CRH trains. I'm curious if 160 km/h CRH6 trains will still be produced.


----------



## flankerjun

the purchasing of crh380d finally begin,the 70 crh380d order and,20 new crh1


----------



## hmmwv

greenlion said:


> Video: CRH3A, CRH3G, MTR380A testing
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzIyNzY2NzMy.html
> Video: CRH2H testing
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzk0MjMyOTU2.html
> Video: CRH6 official advertisment film
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzYyMjQ5ODYw.html


So CRH2H looks nothing like other CRH2 series.

And CRH3A is rename CJ1 (Intercity 1) and CRH3G renamed CJ2 (Intercity 2).


----------



## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> So CRH2H looks nothing like other CRH2 series.
> 
> And CRH3A is rename CJ1 (Intercity 1) and CRH3G renamed CJ2 (Intercity 2).


I was confused by the looks of the CRH2H because it looks nothing like the CHR2: 









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH2


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> I was confused by the looks of the CRH2H because it looks nothing like the CHR2:


Similarly CRH3A and CRH3G look nothing like CRH3/CRH380B series.


----------



## greenlion

in February 2014, CSR signed contract to produce 32 sets of CRH6S (140km/h, 2M2T) for Wenzhou Commuter rail S1 line


----------



## Gusiluz

FM 2258 said:


> I was confused by the looks of the CRH2H because it looks nothing like the CHR2:


This is the "grandfather", the original Kawasaki E2 (1997):


This is the "father", the CRH2A from CSR Sifang (2007):


In a Chinese show they presented what was to be the new face of CRH2C:


Here's the front (the unused, it was just a cover), lying outdoors on a chinese factory:


This is the definitive CRH2C (2008), with two versions: the C1 to 300 km/h (6M 2T), and C2 to 350 km/h (8M):


And this is the new CRH2H (2014):

.....................................................................
For that matter, this is the first prototype of CRH380C, derived from the Velaro CN:


that is different from the final (2013):



Or it would be CRH1-380 Bombardier Sifang-CSR:


that eventually called CRH380D (2014):


----------



## flankerjun

CRH380D begin mass production.


----------



## Sybic

Dear all,

as you might see here [http://www.bahnnews-austria.at/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12217], two sections of a CRH2H have been brought to Vienna for undergoing tests at the climatic wind channel of RTA. Unfortunately I didn't find quite much informations about those vehicles, the website of its manufacturer doesn't offer anything.

So, could anyone tell me more abou them? Especially: When heve they been ordered, how many units, when and where should they enter commercial services, and so on...

Thx a lot for your efforts & Greetings from Austria

Sybic


----------



## foxmulder

Sybic said:


> Dear all,
> 
> as you might see here [http://www.bahnnews-austria.at/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12217], two sections of a CRH2H have been brought to Vienna for undergoing tests at the climatic wind channel of RTA. Unfortunately I didn't find quite much informations about those vehicles, the website of its manufacturer doesn't offer anything.
> 
> So, could anyone tell me more abou them? Especially: When heve they been ordered, how many units, when and where should they enter commercial services, and so on...
> 
> Thx a lot for your efforts & Greetings from Austria
> 
> Sybic


Actually, answers are already in this thread  70 ordered. Some have already delivered. Testing is underway. Commercial service possibly next year.


----------



## Sybic

Dear Foxmulder,

during a search I've found that one: http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...e-huge-domestic-hs-contracts.html?channel=542

At the first moment I'm afraid being uninformed to which subcategory the CRH2H in Vienna is actually belonging to: 57 trains with a maximum speed of 250km/h? Or even to those ones, which are manufactured by CNR Changchun and CSR Sifang?

However, during my first trial here I didn't find the passage in this thred where the 70 units are mentioned...

Greetings

Sybic


----------



## ccdk

*CRH380D*

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0V71LX20150128

*Bombardier sees China safety certification for high-speed trains by end-Feb -exec
*
Jan 28 (Reuters) - Canada's Bombardier Inc expects to receive safety certification from China for its high-speed trains as early as next month, providing a springboard for more orders, the firm's top executive in the country said.

The regulatory clearance, after years of tests, means Bombardier will be able to begin delivering 80 of its CRH380D trains first ordered in 2009, worth $4 billion in total. China tightened rail safety rules after a fatal crash in 2011.

"In the next two weeks, by end of next month, (the train) is expected to get the certificate. Then we will start delivery," Bombardier China's president, Jianwei Zhang, told Reuters in an interview on Tuesday.

The trains, which can travel as fast as 380 kilometres per hour, are being jointly manufactured with a unit of domestic train maker CSR Corp . Bombardier's share of the deal was estimated to be $2 billion.

Asked whether the certification would generate new orders, Zhang said, "Absolutely...Frankly speaking, I cannot say too much, but I've already got an order." The official said he couldn't comment further before official confirmation of the order is announced.


----------



## hkskyline

*China's cabinet says rail merger should follow market rules*
_Excerpt_ 

SHANGHAI, March 26 (Reuters) - The merger of China's top train makers, China CNR Corp Ltd and CSR Corp Ltd , should follow market rules and ensure stable operations, a government report on a cabinet meeting said.

Wednesday's executive meeting of the State Council, or cabinet, discussed progress toward the merger, which would create a train giant able to compete globally with the likes of Siemens and Bombardier, but there were no details about when the companies might link.

The merger "must follow market rules and the principle of the companies acting voluntarily, create favourable conditions for restructuring, ensure the stable operations of the companies and promote improvements in efficiency", a report on the government's main website (gov.cn) quoted the cabinet as saying.

China built the world's longest high-speed train network in less than a decade and has expressed its desire to export its technology. The two state-owned firms however have fiercely competed against each other while trying to sell trains abroad.

A merged CNR-CSR would have combined annual revenue of about 200 billion yuan ($32.2 billion) based on 2013 company data, compared with Siemens' 75.9 billion euros ($83.2 billion) and Bombadier's $18.2 billion.


----------



## hmmwv

Zhuzhou's export meter gauge EMU enters service in Malaysia, operating speed is 160km/h.

http://tv.cnr.cn/xwsx/20150710/t20150710_519147346.html


----------



## BEE2

Pansori said:


> I bet very few people travel the entire distance between Beijing and Guangzhou let alone Shenzhen. There should be an overnight sleeper service though. Also between Shenzhen and Shanghai.



Personally, I don't think travelling by bullet train between Beijing and
Guangzhou is better than by airplane.hno:hno:hno:


----------



## flankerjun

CRH6F


----------



## cheerego

hope it'll run at 350km/h soon


----------



## flankerjun

the train has experienced 7.23 accident,now it is a new test train


----------



## xjtyou

flankerjun said:


> CRH6F


The interior looks like metro. Which line does that train run in?


----------



## mrsmartman

^^ Nanningdong from/to Beihai in Guangxi. Sort of high speed commuter train. This is quite interesting.


----------



## ccdk

HSR trains for Macedonia


----------



## Pansori

^^

This is not a HSR train. Rather a regular 160km/h EMU trainset.

I wonder if this is to do with wrong translation or a very lame PR tactic of calling any EMU an 'HSR'.

As for HSR exports China is yet to export its first HSR trainset beyond its borders.


----------



## xinxingren

FM 2258 said:


> None of the conventional trains run at 160 km/h do they? Otherwise I guess that would qualify for a CRH logo I think.  :cheers:


There's a lot of fancy upgrade work on conventional lines, eg. a couple I've travelled on Kunming-Guangtong and Xining-Geermu. AFAIK the design speed for the lines is 160km/hr but look along the bottom edge of the coach next time you board: Maximum speed 120km/hr.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Are DMU-s classified as CRH, or not?


----------



## dixiadetie

*CRH5J——Complex dedecter train*

*photoed by @今天qiqi090627工作了么*

He started with a CRH2C , in JinShanWei Sta.









CRH5J is also named "no.0 high speed complex detector train"(I metaphrase from 0号高速综合检测列车 , It would there are better version I think......)









She was a 250km/h-level detector train which designed by CRRC ChangChun Railway Vehicles Co., Ltd. based on CRH5









Standing with other trians.









The 8-car train is constitute of cars with these functions : 
Car no.1 , signal detection ; 
Car no.2 , meeting room ; 
Car no.3 , catenary detection ; 
Car no.4 , database analyzing ; 
Car no.5 , track detection ; 
Car no.6 , living space ; 
Car no.7 , office ; 
Car no.8 signal detection.









The most obviously feature which different form the other train of the detector train is the yellow painting , same as doctor yellow in Japan



























End with a public transport IC card with anime


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Is this the Shanghai Metro line 22?


----------



## dixiadetie

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Is this the Shanghai Metro line 22?


It is a commuter-operated rail in Shanghai (you can use IC card and don't have to buy ticket in advance as well as board trains match to the ticket ) , and it is usually numbered as line 22 in unofficial subway map of Shanghai . Officially it is not the line 22 .


----------



## stoneybee

Well "高速综合检测列车" will probably be better translated as "High-Speed Comprehensive Inspection/Test Train" or "High-Speed Integrated Inspection/Test Train".


----------



## 00Zy99

^^ What character is that in that last picture?


----------



## dixiadetie

*China first Hybrid train*

*Photoed by @有图为郑*

These two 3-car trains are made by Changchun Railway Vehicles

They are numbered "0505" and "0506" .









“0505” for powered by catenary and batteries . "0506" for powered by catenary and diesel fuel .


















It looks similar with CJ01 . Just in different color .









The two trains are linked together .









The left one for exporting to the Europe . And the "0505" and "0506" on the middle . Another commuter type train is on the right .









Some rail fans are gathering . It is so nice that the governor of the depot let people to take photos in the safe way . 









Look forward to their commercial operation :cheers:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

dixiadetie said:


> *Photoed by @有图为郑*
> 
> “0505” for powered by catenary and batteries . "0506" for powered by catenary and diesel fuel .


What is the speed of 0506?


----------



## Scion

Some high quality photos of the 2 new trainsets. The Weibo user said these 2 trains will drop the "Harmony One" moniker and be given a new title.


----------



## Scion

Qingdao Sifang's CRH2G. Designed and manufactured for the Lanzhou - Urumqi route. Its speciality is to withstand extreme hot and cold temperature swings, and intense blasts from sandstorms.


----------



## ddes

^^ So, if it's a CRH2G, I would assume it was developed from the CRH2?


----------



## Silly_Walks

Scion said:


> Qingdao Sifang's CRH2G. Designed and manufactured for the Lanzhou - Urumqi route. Its speciality is to withstand extreme hot and cold temperature swings, and intense blasts from sandstorms.


What's the regular max speed in service?


----------



## t2contra

The CRH2G train can run up to 250kph. It can can run in temperatures as low as -40ºC. 

The train is also designed to resist sand and run in places with altitudes as high as 3,600m.


----------



## Gusiluz

*CRH series*

Although from 1998 to 2012 he circulated a foreign HST, the XinShisu (X2 Swedish exX2000 Asea/ABB), and since 2000 do 8 DJJ1 Blue Arrow Chinese, both push-pull 200 km/h, although the first HSL entered service between Shenyang and Qinhuangdao 12/10/2003 (405 km to 250 km/h), the real high-speed began -directly at 350 km/h- in China in 2008.

XinShisu


DJJ1


Since the first order of HST, the 10/10/2004, China Rail Investment Corporation (CRIC) has *order* at least 2,206 trains: 1,267 for 300/380 km/h and 939 to 200/250 km/h; at least 310 of these trains have 16 cars (240 and 70).
In just eight years, since 2008, China Railway High-speed (CRH) has *into service* more than 2,000 trains. Adding the Chinese Wikipedia entries each series, are 2,063 HST, and will not be far off, because by my count there were 1,128 trains in October 2014, 1,556 the 04/01/2015, the 05/04/2015 1,562 (official number ) and 1,800 in December 2015 according to China Today. In Japan, which has the same capacity trains (up to 1,323 seats), there are 436 HST; while in France, with much smaller trains, there are 459 being, in both cases, the maximum commercial speed of 320 km/h.
To summarize a little, in this series differentiate box for its aesthetics. In some of them (almost all CRH380) there are versions for cold weather and high altitude (G) and for sand desert and hot climate (H) but, for example, in the series CRH5 together versions A (the original, 140 trains) and G, while in another row distinguish the E because it has a different outward appearance and twice cars. 
There are more trains in service than orders because I do not find what makers corresponds the last award of 351 HST.


Generations:
The *first generation* high-speed train consisted of 40 trains CRH1 series, and 60 of each of the CRH2, CRH3 and CRH5 series; the first three trains of the latter were manufactured in their home countries, respectively: Japan, Germany and Italy. The CRH1 is a version of Regina, Bombardier, and was manufactured at Bombardier Sifang Transportation (BST), the joint plant with state-owned Sifang. The CRH2 is a version of E2 Kawasaki and was manufactured in another part of the same plant China South Rail Car (CSR) Sifang in Qingdao. The CRH3 is the Velaro version for China, from Siemens, and was built by the state-owned China North Rail Car (CNR) in Tangshan. Finally, the CRH5 is not pendular version of the New Pendolino, Alstom, and was manufactured in CNR Changchun.

CRH1A y B


CRH2A y B


CRH3C


CRH5A y G



The *second generation* is composed of series derived from the first without participation of foreign manufacturers, and assumed new orders in versions of 16 cars with seating (CRH1B and CRH2B) or with soft beds (CRH1E and CRH2E). CRH2 an evolution of Kawasaki was also performed in versions for 300 and 350 km/h (CRH2C1 and CRH2C2), with disputes over ownership of the technology used, which also occurred in a lesser extent in the evolution of the series CRH3 and CRH5; it was not so in the case of Bombardier, with CRH1E (soft beds version from Zefiro 250) and 250NG CRH1A (Zefiro 250NG), having a joint venture in China.

CRH1E


CRH2C y E



The *third generation* consists of preparations for the projected HSL with a maximum speed of 380 km/h, speed is not reached commercial operation so far by the policy change speed trains and prices. The dismissal for corruption in February 2011 of the Minister of Railways (MOR) Liu Zhijun brought about a change in that policy, and the maximum commercial speed was reduced to 309 km/h. The accident at the Ningbo-Wenzhou line (whose speed had been reduced to 200 km/h on July 1, 2011), produced on 23 July 2011 but did not underpin this policy. On October 12, 2015 was announced the increased the maximum commercial speed to 350 km/h, beginning on the Beijing-Shanghai PDL in 2016.
The CRH380A (and the AL, in this generation means 16 cars L) is an evolution of the CRH2C property its technology in dispute between Kawasaki and China. The CRH380B is an evolution of CRH3C with a Siemens share of only 18% and is the only case of a series made of two different factories: at least 130 trains in CNR Tangshan and the rest in CNR Changchun. The CRH380C is an evolution of CRH380B but with Hitachi replaces Siemens traction equipment. The CRH380D is the version for China Bombardier Zefiro 380.

CRH380A y AL


CRH380B y BL


CRH380CL


CRH380D



Which could be called *fourth generation* is composed of specialized series in cold (G) or hot (H) climates, or commuter (CJ) and are, at least outwardly, very different from the first; to guess which models are inspired no more than look each manufacturer. All trains for 200/250 km/h and includes new CRH2A E and G, CRH2H, the CRH5E and for shorter trips (CJ): CRH6A, CRH3A and CRH3G. There is also a new version for the CRH380A, which I find more references to the image.

CRH380A NG


CRH6A


CRH3A


CRH1A 250 NG


CRH2A y E NG y G


CRH2H


CRH5E


CRH3G



To standardize the new Chinese high-speed trains, the Chinese Railways Corporation (CRC) launched in 2012 the project to create the *Standard Chinese high speed train*. In December 2013 the Chinese Academy of Railway Sciences (CARS) determined its technical specifications and in September 2014 closed the final design of the trains and the process of manufacturing two prototypes (the Golden Phoenix and Blue Dolphin) started, one in each of the main construction station: China South Locomotive & Rolling Stock (CSR) and China North Rolling Stock (CNR). Meanwhile both companies merged on June 1, 2015 to form China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation (CRRC), the first industrial group in the world, ahead of General Electric, and undisputed leader of a market, railway rolling stock, that and they dominated his two predecessors.
Although the maximum commercial speed is 350 km/h, the 07/15/2016, during testing two prototypes (CRH0208 and CRH0503) they crossed over a viaduct at 420 km/h each they.

Prototypes lead two series that, despite its great aesthetic differences, they share the same characteristics: maximum speed of 350 km/h, four engines and four trailers in 209 meter long, 3,360 mm wide and 4,060 high, a maximum weight 17 tons per axle and 556 seats: 10 in club class, 28 in first class and 518 in second class. Qingdao Sifang series (CRH350A) entered service on August 15, 2016. 
According to CRRC all technology is Chinese and not have problems for export.

CRH350A




CRH350B



Prototypes CRH350 0208 and 0503



Much more updated information (eg: the number of passengers and detail of the HSL in service and future) and its sources in the Wikipedia[/URL] (in Spanish).
Anything that is not understood or what is wrong: do not hesitate to comment.
Forgive my bad English.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Thanks so much for that explanation! I love the variety of Chinese' high speed trains.


----------



## Fan Railer

It's been a while since there was a good update. Thanks for this.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Thank you very much! but it is huge!

Here is a new train: the CRH1E NG (soft beds):


And a CRH2G but not has three side windows as the rest:


CRH2H


It will be for changing the structure of the numbering?

And a couple of questions.

Someone knows how many CRH5G and H are there?
I guess the H are in Urumqi and G in Harbin, yes?

Someone knows how many CRH2G and H are there?
Where?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Continuing the theme of trains CRH2G and H, I found that those who go to Urumqi can be both G and H according to the news. Can it be that circulate the H in summer and the G in winter?. And the same goes for CRH5G and H, the two series are railway stations listed.

But also we have the CRH2G have three small windows on the side of the cabin:


But I showed a picture of a CRH2G 2417 without small windows:


And now I find an image (apparently) the same train but tuition CRH2H 2417:


Amazing :nuts: :nuts: :nuts:

Anyway, what I would like to know are the last orders from 2014-09-24 and especially of the last of 351 trains.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Swede

Gusiluz said:


> from 1998 to 2012 he circulated a foreign HST, the XinShisu (X2 Swedish exX2000 Asea/ABB),
> XinShisu
> 
> Forgive my bad English.


1. Your English is pretty good. 
2. That train set was sold back to Sweden (to the state-owned SJ train company) in 2012 and I from what I remember reading at the time and from what staff on one of those trains told me last summer that train is now in service in Sweden. Re-painted and with the interior changed to match the other ones. iirc it is possible to tell them apart on the inside, but I don't remember how. Sadly, it was not that specific train set I was travelling on last summer


----------



## hmmwv

luhai said:


> It would be funny if older CRH train sets starts adopts the green and yellow scheme....


Haha no kidding, original CRH1/2/3/5 will get the olive plus yellow strip scheme.


----------



## tjrgx

bluemeansgo said:


> There's nothing wrong with licensing tech/tech transfer, then improving it for your own use afterwards. No need to be all showy about it. It's not as if any manufacturer has built this technology from scratch... no one's reinventing the wheel here. I think it's great that China has taken tech from Japan and Europe to learn how to build these trains and then build them locally, but making flash statements like "We OWN ALL THE TECHNOLOGY" is disingenous at best.


They are not simply bragging. I think you miss a big point about train export.

The tech-transfer contracts China had signed with Europe/Japan firms forbid China to use their transferred techs for export to third country. So China indeed to have to go extra mile and made major efforts for new design to avoid patent infringements if they want to export. This has lead to CRH380A which I believe have obtained IP patents in the US already as a way of endorsement, and therefore are able export to Hong Kong. The same thing happens to the two new types as they will export to Indonesia HSR. If Japan/Europe firms smell something, I'm sure they will bring it up because of the breach of agreements. They are not stupid.

So yes they are bragging partly for PR reasons bu also show some level of confidence they can export this thing. Let's see the reaction of other firms when they export this to Indonesia. That would be the litmus test.


----------



## skyridgeline

bluemeansgo said:


> There's quite a focus on the... hey guys... we built and designed this... NO, seriously... we did!!! By the way, we designed these trains all by ourselves.
> 
> 
> This is not a reflection on your post tjrgx, as you're just repeating what was said, but it's as if this statement on CCTV is more meant for show or braggadocio than anything else. Or perhaps if they repeat it enough the local Chinese citizens will give it more credibility.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with licensing tech/tech transfer, then improving it for your own use afterwards. No need to be all showy about it. It's not as if any manufacturer has built this technology from scratch... no one's reinventing the wheel here. I think it's great that China has taken tech from Japan and Europe to learn how to build these trains and then build them locally, but making flash statements like *"We OWN ALL THE TECHNOLOGY"* is disingenous at best.


Very likely true.

_The term for invention patents in China is 20 years from the filing date. The term for utility model patents is 10 years from the filing date._
- http://www.epo.org/searching-for-patents/helpful-resources/asian/china/faq.html#faq-476



Pansori said:


> This was also the case with CRH380A which was claimed to be *'the first indigenous high-speed train'* in China. Now the same thing with CR400AF/CR400BF. Not that it really matters or makes any difference but it does sound a little funny. Especially 7 years after the initial claim. It's like we forgot about the CRH380A and therefore the claim can be reused for these new trains. Perhaps they'll decide to use it for some new train model in 2025?
> 
> I know it's all about marketing and PR but perhaps CRC (or whoever is developing those trainsets) should have employed a more experienced and professional advertising/PR agency to produce marketing material for those trainsets (which I have no doubt are excellent).


Why not? As in locally assembled and/or produced for example.


----------



## skyridgeline

tjrgx said:


> They are not simply bragging. I think you miss a big point about train export.
> 
> The tech-transfer contracts China had signed with Europe/Japan firms forbid China to use their transferred techs for export to third country. So China indeed to have to go extra mile and made major efforts for new design to avoid patent infringements if they want to export. This has lead to CRH380A which I believe have obtained IP patents in the US already as a way of endorsement, and therefore are able export to Hong Kong. The same thing happens to the two new types as they will export to Indonesia HSR. If Japan/Europe firms smell something, I'm sure they will bring it up because of the breach of agreements. They are not stupid.
> 
> So yes they are bragging partly for PR reasons bu also show some level of confidence they can export this thing. Let's see the reaction of other firms *when they export this to Indonesia*. That would be the litmus test.


Do Indonesia care about IP :lol:?


----------



## bluemeansgo

tjrgx said:


> They are not simply bragging. I think you miss a big point about train export.
> 
> The tech-transfer contracts China had signed with Europe/Japan firms forbid China to use their transferred techs for export to third country. So China indeed to have to go extra mile and made major efforts for new design to avoid patent infringements if they want to export. This has lead to CRH380A which I believe have obtained IP patents in the US already as a way of endorsement, and therefore are able export to Hong Kong. The same thing happens to the two new types as they will export to Indonesia HSR. If Japan/Europe firms smell something, I'm sure they will bring it up because of the breach of agreements. They are not stupid.
> 
> So yes they are bragging partly for PR reasons bu also show some level of confidence they can export this thing. Let's see the reaction of other firms when they export this to Indonesia. That would be the litmus test.



Yah I do get it. They're trying not to raise alarms. But it's not as if they invented these trains. No one really believes that. Yeah I get that they've changed the original ip enough to satisfy legal constraints and they iterated on some ideas to make the "7 key areas" 

And trying to drag China through courts on this kind of IP generally is bad business practice. Not worth the effort.


----------



## tjrgx

skyridgeline said:


> Do Indonesia care about IP :lol:?


 whether Indonesia cares is irrelevant. It's simens/Kawasaki,etc who cares because they are the ones who compete CRRC on global stage.


----------



## skyridgeline

bluemeansgo said:


> Yah I do get it. They're trying not to raise alarms. But it's not as if they invented these trains. No one really believes that. Yeah I get that they've changed the original ip enough to satisfy legal constraints and they iterated on some ideas to make the "7 key areas"
> 
> And trying to drag *China through courts on this kind of IP generally is bad business practice*. Not worth the effort.


Assuming they have a case ( accusation is not it ). IP protections do expire, can be sold, not applied and simply given away. 



tjrgx said:


> whether Indonesia cares is irrelevant. *It's simens/Kawasaki,etc *who cares because they are the ones who compete CRRC on global stage.


Besides them, who really care about accusations when a good deal is on the table?


----------



## Gusiluz

*Is there no CR400CF?*

They speak of two series of trains, since there are only two visually different, but could be three series of other so many manufacturers now grouped in CRRC (China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation).

CSR Qingdao Sifang (factory A) designed the CR400AF, which is derived from the Blue Dolphin prototypes (CRH-0201 to 0208), while the CR400BF and CR400CF are derived from the Golden Phoenix prototypes, designed by *CNR Tangshan* (*factory B, there were at least The prototype 0305*, probably 5 or more) and by *CNR Changchun* (*factory C, at least 0503 and 0507*, are probably 7 prototypes).
So it seems that the CRH400BF should be called CRH400CF because it is designed by Changchun, except that as both CNRs share design and series.

The first order totals 196 trains, I imagine it will be the total, do you know how many of each factory?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

tjrgx said:


> whether Indonesia cares is irrelevant. It's simens/Kawasaki,etc who cares because they are the ones who compete CRRC on global stage.


To the contrary, it's highly relevant. Basically, is Indonesia happy to buy at a discount what Japan is protesting is stolen from them? Competition on global stage depends crucially on *buyers'* willingness to respect intellectual property claims rather than happily buy stolen IP.
In any case: Japan isn't going to buy CRH or Siemens, because they have their own. Indonesia is not (yet) rich enough to develop their own. The potential market for Chinese copies is the countries that are rich enough to buy, but not rich enough to produce their own or buy the originals.


----------



## SSCreader

Indonesians should do exactly as the Chinese did: buy 6 trains from China, require the plans, and build the rest at home.


----------



## t2contra

SSCreader said:


> Indonesians should do exactly as the Chinese did: buy 6 trains from China, require the plans, and build the rest at home.


If only going from 'should' to 'would' is as easy as going from station 'A' to station 'B'....


----------



## lookback718

SSCreader said:


> Indonesians should do exactly as the Chinese did: buy 6 trains from China, require the plans, and build the rest at home.


Umm, if your refering to the CRH2 based on the E2 Shinkansen, it was 60 trains and a few billion dollars in R&D encompassing many sectors and technological challenges.

While Kawasaki no longer operates in China, Siemens and Alstom are still, a decade later, getting huge orders.


----------



## skyridgeline

chornedsnorkack said:


> To the contrary, it's highly relevant. Basically, is Indonesia happy to buy at a discount what Japan is protesting is stolen from them? Competition on global stage depends crucially on *buyers'* willingness to respect intellectual property claims rather than happily buy stolen IP.
> In any case: Japan isn't going to buy CRH or Siemens, because they have their own. Indonesia is not (yet) rich enough to develop their own. The potential market for Chinese *copies *is the countries that are rich enough to buy, but not rich enough to produce their own or buy the originals.


_The definitive shape of the Lego bricks, with the inner tubes, was patented by the Lego Group in 1958.[13][53] Several competitors have attempted to take advantage of Lego's popularity by producing blocks of similar dimensions, and advertising them as being compatible with Lego bricks. *In 2002, Lego sued the CoCo Toy Company in Beijing for copyright infringement over its "Coko bricks" product. CoCo was ordered to cease manufacture of the products, publish a formal apology and pay damages.*[54] Lego sued the English company Best-Lock Construction Toys in German courts in 2004[55] and 2009;[56] however, the Federal Patent Court of Germany denied Lego trademark protection for the shape of its bricks for the latter case.[57] In 2005, the Lego Company sued Canadian company Mega Bloks for trademark violation, but the Supreme Court of Canada upheld Mega Bloks' rights to sell their product.[58] In 2010, the European Court of Justice ruled that the eight-peg design of the original Lego brick "merely performs a technical function [and] cannot be registered as a trademark."[59]_ - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego#Clones_of_Lego

Interestingly ...

_In 2015, the LEGO Group announced an investment of 1 billion DKK to find and implement sustainable plastic materials to manufacture its Lego elements. Now, Chinese toymaker BanBao has beat them to it.

BanBao, a Chinese manufacturer of educational toys that, among other things, supplies Lego-compatible plastic building blocks, has announced the launch of a new line of building blocks *made of bioplastic*. The new bricks were developed in collaboration with Biopromotions, a Dutch company specialized in products made from biodegradable and biobased plastic materials. _ - http://www.bioplasticsmagazine.com/...stic-building-bricks-compatible-with-Lego.php


----------



## tjrgx

*New CRH2E sleeper EMU with different bed layout starts operation along Beijing-Shanghai route*

starts on July, 1st, 2017


----------



## Silly_Walks

Max speed?

What kind of beds are on it? How long does the trip take? What are the departure and arrival times? What is the capacity on board?

Thanks!


----------



## tjrgx

Silly_Walks said:


> Max speed?
> 
> What kind of beds are on it? How long does the trip take? What are the departure and arrival times? What is the capacity on board?
> 
> Thanks!


Max Speed: 250km/h

New bed class: 动卧 （EMU bed）:bash:

Only one train for trail operation on Shanghai-Beijing route D311/2
(not on PDL route because of track maintainance at night)

whole trip: 11hr 52min; capacity: 880 （previous CRH2E：650）


----------



## Silly_Walks

Thanks!

11:52 is about the time it took when I rode the sleeper Beijing-Shanghai in 2007 on the old tracks.


----------



## FM 2258

tjrgx said:


> Max Speed: 250km/h
> 
> New bed class: 动卧 （EMU bed）:bash:
> 
> Only one train for trail operation on Shanghai-Beijing route D311/2
> (not on PDL route because of track maintainance at night)
> 
> whole trip: 11hr 52min; capacity: 880 （previous CRH2E：650）


I love that CRH also runs on conventional tracks. The train looks comfortable.


----------



## 00Zy99

How many beds per coach?


----------



## tjrgx

00Zy99 said:


> How many beds per coach?


60


----------



## 00Zy99

WOW!!!

Do you happen to have a floor plan?


----------



## tjrgx

*Some technical drawings and pics*



00Zy99 said:


> WOW!!!
> 
> Do you happen to have a floor plan?


----------



## tjrgx

*First Inter-City New Energy MU Train Debuts in Inner Mongolia, Runs Over 200 km on Single Charge*

https://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/fi...inner-mongolia-runs-over-200-km-single-charge

(Yicai Global) July 4 -- An inter-city new energy multiple-unit train developed by CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles Co. is slated to start a test run in Inner Mongolia.

It features a dual power supply system that allows the train to shift energy source between the grid and batteries, making it the first inter-city train of its type in China, reported China National Radio on its website. The train can run more than 200 kilometers in the off-grid mode.

It is powered by the grid under normal circumstances and uses batteries when power is unavailable, meaning that it can operate across different track systems. Its top speed is 160 kilometers per hour.

The dual-power technology enables the train to travel on inter-city railways and urban light rail networks. It also makes it possible for the train to operate under extreme weather conditions such as sand storm and alpine areas. It is suitable for operating in nature reserves, tourist attractions and other places that are inaccessible to the grid.

Furthermore, the report said, some countries along the Belt and Road are still using single track railways with complicated signal systems for both passengers and freights. The new inter-city train powered by the grid and batteries can improve rail transport services in those countries without constructing new railways or changing the existing signal systems.


----------



## ccdk




----------



## Gusiluz

34XX series 


tjrgx said:


> starts on July, 1st, 2017


24XX series 


There are more? how many trains of each series?


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Curious, what's the difference between the series? One looks double decker while the other one single deck.


----------



## skyridgeline

Will there be cabin and suite classes?

the "Train Suite Shiki-Shima" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E001_series) - hybrid electric/diesel 110 km/h max


----------



## foxmulder

bluemeansgo said:


> There's quite a focus on the... hey guys... we built and designed this... NO, seriously... we did!!! By the way, we designed these trains all by ourselves.
> 
> 
> This is not a reflection on your post tjrgx, as you're just repeating what was said, but it's as if this statement on CCTV is more meant for show or braggadocio than anything else. Or perhaps if they repeat it enough the local Chinese citizens will give it more credibility.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with licensing tech/tech transfer, then improving it for your own use afterwards. No need to be all showy about it. It's not as if any manufacturer has built this technology from scratch... no one's reinventing the wheel here. I think it's great that China has taken tech from Japan and Europe to learn how to build these trains and then build them locally, but making flash statements like "We OWN ALL THE TECHNOLOGY" is disingenous at best.



It is a reaction to the attitude of western media about almost anything from China. Like you did here, it is not "disingenuous". It is *true*. However, I agree they do not need mention it that much. Also, these trains novel piece of tech as exemplified by the test they did with two trains running opposite directions at 420km/h. It is more than mere local production.


----------



## tjrgx

*New CRH3A in Chengdu on July, 6th, 2017*

may operate on Chengdu-Xi'an HSR


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Thanks for the news.
Now they have added a golden detail in the little window, like the CR400BF?

Before there was nothing golden:


They had only ordered 8, did not order more?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Every time I believe more that they are different series. 



In addition I have pointed out that began to circulate in 2015 in the Commuter lines: Lanzhou-Chongqing and Chongqing-Lichuan. In the future in Qianjiang-Zhangjiajie-Changde. 
???


----------



## flankerjun

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Thanks for the news.
> Now they have added a golden detail in the little window, like the CR400BF?
> 
> Before there was nothing golden:
> 
> 
> They had only ordered 8, did not order more?


this train is just a Transitional product,to meet the shortage of 250KM/H train.in the future there will two new design 250KM/h train,like CR400.but this will take a few years.


----------



## mrsmartman

tjrgx said:


> may operate on Chengdu-Xi'an HSR


The baby face ICE3/CRH3 is definitely missed.


----------



## Gusiluz

*CRH3A*

^^ I mentioned the CR400BF just for the golden color, in case some trains start to have something of that color. 

As for the standard HS EMU, I think that the logical thing would be a single series for 350/400 and another for 250. I look forward to that new standard EMU for 250. Thank you. 

But what amazes me is that it was announced that the CRH3A series entered service in 2015 and now announce the commissioning of the CRH3A which is slightly different: roof equipment, headlights and fairing.

CRH3A by CNR Tangshan 2015: 8 trains, 616 seats, 5120 kW, 202 meters and 428 tonnes. 

CNR Tangshan rolls out CRH3A Railway Gazette 04 Jul 2013. 

CNR Tangshan 2015:


CRRC Changchun (2017):


tjrgx said:


> ...


CNR Tangshan 2015:


CRRC Changchun (2017):


tjrgx said:


> ...


----------



## Gusiluz

*Intercon Silk Road*

Duplicate


----------



## Gusiluz

*Intercon Silk Road*

China's Concept Intercontinental High Speed Train. 

If it is manufactured, it will be a two-level HST with passengers in the upper and load in the lower level, and is designed for the New Silk Road: 'One Belt, One Road'.









They are talking about Beijing-Berlin and London, but it also follows a very rare route through Manchuria and Siberia, north of Mongolia, following almost the entire Trans-Siberian route. The real plans are to travel through Central Asia to extend its influence in that area, apart from being the shortest route.







https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ooldezaZgU0


----------



## Silly_Walks

Gusiluz said:


> They are talking about Beijing-Berlin and London, but it also follows a very rare route through Manchuria and Siberia, north of Mongolia, following almost the entire Trans-Siberian route. The real plans are to travel through Central Asia to extend its influence in that area, apart from being the shortest route.


Is it the shortest route to go through Central Asia?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ I think the shortest and most logical route is from Urumqi follow the new Silk Road. In addition, for Siberia only there is Russian gauge. 

If they want high speed trains with variable gauge that speak with CAF or Talgo.


----------



## ccdk

....


----------



## Sopomon

Gusiluz said:


> China's Concept Intercontinental High Speed Train.


It looks like a fairly bald-faced copy of the PriestmanGoode Mercury concept for HS2


----------



## Gusiluz

*Significant differences 3*

In the PDF provided by *tjrgx* some news: 

A new CRH5G (5218 series) with the new little windows on the sides of the cabin, although they are of another style.


Although the real new ones are the CRH3X derived from CRH3C:


And the CRH-0306 two-level derived from the CR400BF which I imagine will be the beds for 350 kmh of CRRC Tangshan with 16 cars and 16,640 kW:


Some curiosity that I forgot in the other messages. The prototype for CRH380C:


different from the series train:


And finally the prototype CRH500 or CRH380AM 0204 with its two different noses:


----------



## foxmulder

CRH500..... I had high hopes for it. I even thought it may have been a record braking train set.. alas, almost history now. :lol:


----------



## tjrgx

*China's centralized powered CR200J*

From 罗一童@weibo


----------



## hmmwv

It'll always be interesting to see a pointy nose hauling the 25T cars.


----------



## Sopomon

Is that what they're for? 

It seems like they should almost have their own custom coaches


----------



## t2contra

*Le nouveau TGV 100% chinois, "Renaissance", réouvre l'ère de 350km/h sur le réseau de trains à grande vitesse en Chine.*


----------



## Julito-dubai

Designer Luigi Colani who also worked for Porsche might be involved in the CRH500 project. 

He was braging about it a few years ago when I crossed his ways in Changzhou.


----------



## tjrgx

*New CRH3A to debut on Chengdu-Xi'an HSR*

http://www.chinanews.com/tp/hd2011/2017/07-28/759334.shtml

Pics taken in Chengdu on July 28, 2017


----------



## tjrgx

*CRH wallpapers by LUO Yitong*

Credit: 罗一童@weibo

*CR400*










*CRH*










*CRH380*


----------



## Pansori

I would seriously consider printing those ang hanging on the wall


----------



## Gusiluz

Since the CRH fleet is unreachable, no one has data on their current number per series? 
Ideally it would look something like this. 


Thanks in advance


----------



## flankerjun

Gusiluz said:


> Since the CRH fleet is unreachable, no one has data on their current number per series?
> Ideally it would look something like this.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Really: many, many thanks!
Instant and fully updated!!!

I have a lot of questions, so I'll have to narrow it down.
How are these different from the rest (G? H?):

10 CRH380D
121 CRH2A
39 CRH380A
91 CRH380BG

There are 10 AF (CR400AF) and 10 BF (CR400BF) and they contracted 196 in total, how many of each?

Why only 7 CRH6F appear, in addition they are for 160 kmh, they are modified or something? Down to the right of the image puts something.

2,738 are the contracted trains?

I can not find:

CRH5H Lanzhou-Urumqi

CRH1E New generation, to distinguish them: two small windows on the sides of the cabin

CRH3A conmuter Chengdú-Xi´an (2017)

CRH2A New generation, to distinguish them: three small windows on the sides of the cabin

CRH2H Lanzhou-Urumqi

CRH2E New generation, to distinguish them: three small windows on the sides of the cabin

CRH5E Beds, weather cold. Test in Harbin

CRH3G conmuter weather cold


Again: many, many thanks.

I add: they are 1,009 for 250 km/h and 1,352 for 300/380 km/h


----------



## flankerjun

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Really: many, many thanks!
> Instant and fully updated!!!
> 
> I have a lot of questions, so I'll have to narrow it down.
> How are these different from the rest (G? H?):
> 
> 10 CRH380D
> 121 CRH2A
> 39 CRH380A
> 91 CRH380BG
> 
> There are 10 AF (CR400AF) and 10 BF (CR400BF) and they contracted 196 in total, how many of each?
> 
> Why only 7 CRH6F appear, in addition they are for 160 kmh, they are modified or something? Down to the right of the image puts something.
> 
> 2,738 are the contracted trains?
> 
> I can not find:
> 
> CRH5H Lanzhou-Urumqi
> CRH1E New generation, to distinguish them: two small windows on the sides of the cabin
> CRH3A conmuter Chengdú-Xi´an (2017)
> CRH2A New generation, to distinguish them: three small windows on the sides of the cabin
> CRH2H Lanzhou-Urumqi
> CRH2E New generation, to distinguish them: three small windows on the sides of the cabin
> CRH5E Beds, weather cold. Test in Harbin
> CRH3G conmuter weather cold
> 
> Again: many, many thanks.
> 
> I add: they are 1,089 for 250 km/h and 1,272 for 300/380 km/h


This sheet only include the train that have been deployed in the maintenance yard,not include the test train,or prototype.

CR has not purchase any CRH6F,only the local governments have them.CRH6A is for 200KM/H,CRH6F is for 160KM/H.

H has been cancelled,only G train.

CRH5H now called CRH5G,
CRH1E New generation, I think it has been included in the CRH1E.
CRH3A has not been deployed.
CRH2A New generation,2A统，we don't give them an special name.
CRH2H Lanzhou-Urumqi,CRH2G
CRH5E 3G,still prototype.
about 196 CRH400,I haven't got the detail,may be 50/50?



> How are these different from the rest (G? H?):
> 
> 10 CRH380D
> 121 CRH2A
> 39 CRH380A
> 91 CRH380BG


I don't understand what's your question.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Thanks again
For example, there are two columns for CRH380D trains, one put D and another D and a "Han character" what's the difference?

A hug


I will adapt the list to my form, separating the models by construction dates and by exterior types.


----------



## Gusiluz

*HST july 2017*

With the data of @*flankerjun*



There are 10 CR400AF, reducing the image was covered and I did not realize. Sorry!


----------



## Gusiluz

flankerjun said:


> ...
> CRH1E New generation, I think it has been included in the CRH1E.
> ...


It does not look like it, the first order was already 20 trains. Maybe they are still not circulating.


It may be that those who have the "Han character" are the former and what not the new generations?

121 trains CRH2A (year 2016)

351 trains CRH2A "Han character" (year 2007)


----------



## flankerjun

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Thanks again
> For example, there are two columns for CRH380D trains, one put D and another D and a "Han character" what's the difference?
> 
> A hug
> 
> 
> I will adapt the list to my form, separating the models by construction dates and by exterior types.


That han character means "unification" or some other words that is more proper,trains that have a new seat layout and some different design.the trains with 统 have the same amount of seats, for example,CRH2A has less seats than CRH2A统
and the latest CRH400 have 576 seats，the same with CRH380统，that makes some seats can't share a window.but I have heard that they will change the design of window later.


----------



## Gusiluz

*HST july 2017*


With the data of @*flankerjun*

CRH1A-A based on Bombardier Zefiro 250 NG 2015:


CRH1E NG based on Bombardier Zefiro 250 NG 2016:


CRH2A NG CSR Sifang 2016:


CRH2G NG CSR Sifang 2016:


CRH2E NG 24XX series one level beds 2016:


CRH2E NG 34XX series two levels beds 2017:


tjrgx said:


>


CRH3A (one train) CNR Tangshan 2015:


CRH3A CRRC Changchun 2017:


tjrgx said:


>


CRH3G conmuter CJ CRRC Tangshan 2017:


CRH5E 2016:


CRH5G 5218 series, 2017:


----------



## FM 2258

It looks like China has the most variety of high speed trains of any country in the world. I think it's exciting and interesting that they decided to diversify their rolling stock.


Do passengers get advanced notice of what train type they'll be riding on? Kinda like airline passengers do?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Since others who know more do not answer you, I will do it with my bad English.

28 may seem like many series but we must bear in mind that we speak of 2,361 trains, each series could have an average of 84 trains; In Europe are only above the TGV Duplex (202 in the park and 255 orders) and the German ICE3 + Velaro is approaching, in Japan there is an average of 36 trains per series and only stand out the N700 / N700A / N700S (156 in the park and 187 orders) that are from three Companies.
We must also take into account the climatic diversity of China, with deserts, jungles, extreme altitude and extreme temperatures.

Each maintenance bases will have very few so series they are more or less unified by lines. For example, the Lanzhou-Urumqi line began (I do not know if it will have changed) CRH2E NG night, CRH2G CRH5G and CRH2C for G trains.

In China I do not know how it will be, but in Spain when booking a ticket on the website there is a map with the seats, so if you know the distribution of each series (for each origin-destination route there may be one or two series of trains AVE one from Avant and one from Alvia, the partial routes Madrid-Zaragoza and Zaragoza-Barcelona have almost all series) you know what train it is.


----------



## Gusiluz

*Evolution of the CRH park*

According to Wikipedia, and coincides with my notes, at the end of 2008 there were 191 CRH trains (174 for 220 / 250 and 17 for 300 / 350 km/h), in 2010 there were 483 (286 + 197), in 2012 there were 1,050 (520 + 530). In May 2015 there were 1,562 (676 + 886), in December 2015 there were 1,800 according to the media, just one year ago 2,063 (858 + 1,205) according to my notes, and now 2,361 (1,009 + 1,352).

*Month/Year--200/250 km/h--300/380 km/h--Total-- % 300/380 km/h of total*
12/2008 174 017 191 9%
12/2009 206 073 279 26%
12/2010 286 197 483 41%
12/2011 360 360 720 50%
12/2012 520 530 1,050 51%
05/2015 676 886 1,562 57%
12/2015 ---- ----- 1,800 ---
08/2016 858 1,205 2,063 58%
07/2017 1,009 1,352 2,361 57%


----------



## Gusiluz

*Double-decker HST*

There will be a double-decker HST *for day trips for 350 km/h*. The 8-car version will have 742 seats (209 meters long) and the 16-car version: 1,619 (414 meters long). Two levels, no less than 4,500 mm high and 3,360 mm wide, 5 seats per row on both floors, no shared boogies and only 16 tons per axle!


flankerjun said:


> double-decker train


The *CRH3X nocturnal for 350 km/h* with 8,320 kW and manufactured by Tangshan. Derivative of the derivatives of the Velaro CN. It has 394 places in 8 cars (first night HST of that size):



Also two-levels *nocturnal for 350 km/h will be the CRH-0306* (prototype name), Belongs to the platform of the new standard CR400BF manufactured by Tangshan. It has 788 places in 16 cars and will be the most powerful HST in the world thanks to its 20,280 kW; The Shinkansen 500 had 18,240 when it was made up of 16 cars and the CRH380CL has 19,200.




The only double-decker HST it's a night train that is already on the conventional line between Beijing and Shanghai (the *CRH2E NG*) has 880 places in 16 cars and a maximum speed of 250 km/h. It is manufactured by Sifang and derives from the E2 Shinkansen (although it does not seem it outwardly) whose nocturnal version (CRH2E) had 630 places in 16 single-level cars.


----------



## mfranjic

Gusiluz said:


> ... Also two-levels *nocturnal for 350 km/h will be the CRH-0306* (prototype name), Belongs to the platform of the new standard CR400BF manufactured by Tangshan. It has 788 places in 16 cars and will be the most powerful HST in the world thanks to its 20,280 kW; The Shinkansen 500 had 18,240 when it was made up of 16 cars and the CRH380CL has 19,200.


Thank You very much, Gusiluz, for all those beautiful images and information. The finished product, the one based on *CRH-0306* prototype, may be named *CR400BFWL*. Will it be the most powerful HST in the world? I am not so sure that the *CRH380AL* train wil be withdrawn from the service before the appearance of that one based on the already mentioned *CRH-0306* prototype, and it means *CSR Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. CRH380AL*, 16-car train, configuration *14M2T*, powered by 56 *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd YQ-365* 3-phase 4-pole asynchronous traction motors (TM), each rated at 385 kW for this purpose, with the total traction motors´ power of 21.560 kW / 28.912 hp (29.313 PS) will remain the most powerful HST in the world (some sources cite the power of 20.440 kW, but that is the power measured on the wheels). Or maybe it will not?

Since the other trains´power data You mention; *CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles Co., Ltd. CRH380CL*, 16-car train, configuration *8M8T*, powered by 32 *CRRC Yongji Electric Co., Ltd. YJ105B* asynchronous TMs, each rated at 615 kW, with the total power of 19.680 kW / 26.391 hp (26.757 PS) as and *Hitachi* / *Kawasaki Heavy Industries Rolling Stock Company* / *Kinki Sharyo* / *Nippon Sharyo 500-series Shinkansen* (*W1* set), 16-car train, configuration *16M*, powered by 64 *Hitachi WMT204* asynchronous TMs, each rated at 285 kW, with the total power of 18.240 kW / 24.460 hp (24.800 PS), are actually total traction motors´ powers (ΣTMp) of those trains, I suggest that we take the *CRH380AL*´s power of 21.560 kW as the suitable value in this comparison.

On 03. Dec 2010, standard *CRH380AL* train, reg. *CRH380A-6041L*, 16-car train, configuration *14M2T*, powered by 56 *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd YQ-365* asynchronous TMs, each rated at 385 kW, with the ΣTMp of 21.560 kW / 28.912 hp (29.313 PS), reached the maximum speed of *486,1* km/h (302,0 mph). Unlike this standard train, on 09. Jan 2011, a modified *CRH380BL* train, reg. *CRH380B-6402L*, 12-car train, *8M4T* configuration (instead of standard *8M8T*), powered by 32 *CRRC Yongji Electric Co., Ltd. YJ105C* asynchronous TMs, each rated at 586 kW, with the ΣTMp of 18.752 kW / 25.147 hp (25.496 PS), reached the speed of 487,3 km/h (302,8 mph). It would be very interesting to see which speeds could be reached by some other *CRH380BL*´s 16-car configurations, like *10M6T*, with the ΣTMp of 23.440 kW / 31.434 hp (31.870 PS) or even *12M4T* configuration, with the ΣTMp of 28.128 kW / 37.720 hp (38.243 PS). Huh …

Between 2008 and 2010, eight of the original nine, *500-series Shinkansen* sets have been shortened from 16 to 8 cars (*V* sets, *500-7000* series), configuration *8M*, for use on Sanyo Shinkansen Kodama services and since then *Hitachi* / *Kawasaki Heavy Industries Rolling Stock Company* / *Kinki Sharyo* / *Nippon Sharyo N700 series Shinkansen*, 16-car train, configuration *14M2T*, powered by 56 *Hitachi WMT208* asynchronous TMs, each rated at 305 kW, with the ΣTMp of 17.080 kW / 22.905 hp (23.222 PS) is the most powerful Shinkansen train…

As the *CRRC Tangshan Co., Ltd. CRH-0306*, 16-car, two-level, prototype train (derived from the *CR400BF*), configuration *8M8T*, has the total *wheel power* of 20.280 kW, it means that its ΣTMp could be around 21.400 kW, very similar to that of *CRH380AL* train. Since it has 32 TMs, each of them has approximately 670 kW. Now, the only question is if those TMs are *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co. Ltd. YQ-600* or *YQ-625* asynchronous TMs or maybe even their new *TQ-600* permanent magnet synchronous TM. Personally, I am of the opinion the word is here about *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co. Ltd. YQ-625* asynchronous TM*. In any case, by installing a smaller number of *YQ-625* (735 kg) or *TQ-600* (635 kg) type of TMs instead of larger number of those of type *YQ-365* (465 kg), for approximately the same power output, not only a great energy savings and efficiency are achieved but also a reduction in the total weight of the TMs as and that of the train itself.

* The latest *CSR Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. CR400AF* and *CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles Co., Ltd. CR400BF*, both 8-car trains, configuration *4M4T*, use *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd YQ-625* 3-phase 4-pole asynchronous TMs ...

I put some numbers on the paper for the *CRH380AL* train, in order to find out what differences would it bring if its propulsion configuration would be changed (this calculation is just framed and does not take into account some other parameters that could affect the accuracy of the calculation):

*CRH380AL*, *16-car* train, *14M2T* [56 x *YQ-365* TMs]
Σm(CRH380AL)=890.000 kg
Σm(YQ-365)=56 x 465 kg=26.040 kg
m0(CRH380AL)=Σm(CRH380AL)-Σm(YQ-365)=863.960 kg

P=56 x 385 kW=21.560 kW

Σm(CRH380AL)/P=k
[m0(CRH380AL)+Σm(YQ-365)]/P=41,28 kg/kW

and came to conclusion that, if 56 *YQ-365* TMs of *CRH380AL* train would be replaced by 32 TMs of type *TQ-600*, keeping the same train´s power to weight ratio (configuration *8M8T* instead of *14M2T*), the power of each *TQ-600* TM should be around 670 kW.

*CRH380AL1*, *16-car* train, *8M8T* [32 x *TQ-600* TMs]
m0(CRH380AL1)=863.960 kg
Σm(TQ-600)=32 x 635 kg=20.320 kg
Σm(CRH380AL1)=m0(CRH380AL1)+Σm(TQ-600)=884.280 kg

k=41,28 kg/kW

P1=[m0(CRH380AL1)+Σm(TQ-600)]/k=21.421,5 kW
P(TQ-600)=P1/32=669,4 kW

With the 32 TMs of type *TQ-600*, the mass of the *CRH380AL1* train, configuration *8M8T*, would be 5,7 t lower than that of the *CRH380AL* train, configuration *14M2T* with 56 *YQ-365* TMs. And, if we would like to add as much as possible TMs of type *TQ-600* to configuration *8M8T*, remaining in the area of mass of the *CRH380AL* train with 56 *YQ-365* TMs,

Δm=Σm(CRH380AL)-Σm(CRH380AL1)=5.720 kg
Δm/m(TQ-600)=9,0

it is clear that 2 more motor cars ie. 8 more *TQ-600* TMs could be added, converting it to the configuration *10M6T*, with the ΣTMp of 26.800 kW / 35.939 hp (36.438 PS). In this configuration we have 33,19 kg of total train´s mass per 1 kW of ΣTMp, instead of 41,28 as in the previous cases with *CRH380AL*, 16-car train, configuration *14M2T* with 56 *YQ-365* TMs or *CRH380AL1*, 16-car train, configuration *8M8T* with 32 *TQ-600* TMs.

*CRH380AL2*, *16-car* train, *10M6T* [40 x *TQ-600* TMs]
m0(CRH380AL2)=863.960 kg
Σm(TQ-600)=40 x 635 kg=25.400 kg
Σm(CRH380AL2)=m0(CRH380AL2)+Σm(TQ-600)=889.360 kg

P2=40 x 670 kW=26.800 kW

[m0(CRH380AL2)+Σm(TQ-600)]/P2=33,19 kg/kW

Interesting to note that the value of the required power of *TQ-600* TM, the one obtained by the simplified calculation, is very similar to the one of the TM of *CRH-0306* train prototype. Are we maybe talking about the same traction motor type? New *TQ-600* permanent magnet synchronous TM in the new Chinese HST? … No, not yet. It seems to me still a little bit too early ...

Kind regards

Mario


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Equally. thank you very much! And very interesting the theme of the different engines, it is clear that you know the subject perfectly. I hope you will often go through the Forum.

I was aiming less power for the CRH380AL, thanks for clarifying that is the power in wheel. The same thing happens with weight: there is no way to compare because each source measures it as you want.

I need to know the power of several series, as well as other data.



Thanks in advance!


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## tjrgx

*China's CRH6A-A, CRH6F-A intercity trains go off production line in Qingdao*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/09/c_136597038.htm









^^Photo taken on Sept. 9, 2017 shows a CRH6 intercity train with the four-car configuration in Qingdao, east China's Shandong Province. China's CRH6A-A and CRH6F-A intercity trains, with the four-car configuration, went off the production line in Qingdao on Saturday. (Xinhua/Zhang Jingang) 









^^Photo taken on Sept. 9, 2017 shows a CRH6A-A intercity train









^^Photo taken on Sept. 9, 2017 shows the interior of a CRH6A-A intercity train


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## Gusiluz

CRRC to supply trains for Beijing Daxing airport rail link


> CRIC has awarded *CRRC Sifang* a contract to supply 10 160km/h EMUs for services to Beijing’s new international airport at Daxing.
> 
> Each *eight-car train* will accommodate 512 seated and 1026 standing passengers.
> 
> Deliveries will take place next year and the trains will enter service when the 78km Beijing - Daxing - Bazhou high-speed line opens in September 2019.


Which series? CRH6F?


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## tjrgx

*New-generation bullet train rolls off production line in N China*

A new-generation bullet train rolled off the production line in northern China's Hebei Province Friday. The passenger train could run at a speed of 250 kilometers per hour to connect Xi'an, capital of northwestern Shaanxi Province with Chengdu in southwest China's Sichuan Province.


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## tjrgx

*China's new CRH6 commuter high-speed trains roll off assembly line*


----------



## tjrgx

*China's EMU fleet*

Credit: 罗一童@weibo


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## Gusiluz

tjrgx said:


> Xi'an-Chengdu railway to come on stream within 2017
> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/22/c_136630300.htm
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are also testing new trains. :cheers:


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## Gusiluz

*Significant differences 4*

After the first three parts (Significant differences 1 Significant differences 2 and Significant differences 3), where I compare different trains with the same series, let us now see some novelty.

We can see the aesthetic differences between the *prototypes of the CR400BF (0503 Golden Phoenix, left), and the CR400AF (0207 Blue Dolphin, right)*, and the trains finally put into service.



*CR400AF*: There is a third (smaller) window between the door and the cab, which causes the upper red line to be higher than the original blue.


*CR400BF*: the two windows on a black background are now the same size and larger, and the one next to the cabin is now bigger and different. It also lowers the black roof over the side. They have also removed a vertical division next to the nose.


I take this opportunity to comment on this one, much smaller:
*CRH1B #1076/1080* that outwardly it is like the CRH1E (based on Bombardier Zefiro 250 but not NG)...


...instead of like the rest of the CRH1B based on Bombardier Regina:

Well, the photo is from a CRH1A, but they are aesthetically the same.


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## Gusiluz

*Significant differences 5*

*CR400BF* #5001 has the final design and numbering, but is white (source):



On the other hand, the *CRH2H* #2417 was the first trainset presented in september 2014 (in a workshop) for the Lanzhou-Urumqi line: 



Here are a CRH2G with the same number and the same windows:


The CRH2G #2418 with three small windows, like the rest of the G series:

I have also seen the number 0001 also with three small windows, of course.

The CRH2G #2417 now with three small windows!!! (video)


Amazing!!!

H: anti-sandstorm and cold resistant, for example: Lanzhou-Urumqi line. No longer trainsets called H.
G: cold resistant, in principle only for the deep cold in North of China. G series: CRH2G (origin Kawasaki E2), CRH5G (origin Alstom New Pendolino) and CRH380G (18% Siemens).

Note: I try to put photos from Wikipedia, but I have a problem with PhotoBucket and I'm out of file, so I've put the first photos I've found, sorry.
I appreciate very much the photos you put on the forum!


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## tjrgx

*China’s latest high-speed train consumes 3.8 KWh per 100 passenger-km*

http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0929/c90000-9275504.html

China’s latest high-speed train the Fuxing consumes 3.8 KWh per 100 passenger-km when running at a speed of 350 km/h, according to Chinese newspaper Science and Technology Daily.

The height of the Fuxing model CR400AF increased to 4.05 meters from 3.7 meters, expanding its section by 7.3%.

The enlarged locomotive calls for improved aerodynamic performance. In order to achieve this, the design team conducted lots of simulated calculations, wind tunnel tests, and moving model tests, said Ding Sansan, deputy chief-engineer of CSR Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd., the producer of the locomotive.

After multiple technical evaluations, the final scheme was chosen out of 46 preliminary conceptual plans.

Compared with older versions of China’s high-speed trains, the Fuxing has 12% lower air resistance and 17% of the energy consumption per 100 km.

It saves more than 5,000 KWh of electricity for a round trip between Beijing and Shanghai, Ding noted.

In addition, a number of sensing systems have been added to the train, empowering it with a smarter brain.

The 2,500 sensors can sample more than 1,500 kinds of information, including vibration, bearing temperature, traction system, and carriage environment, said Tao Guidong, deputy director of technical center of CSR Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd.

The smart high-precision sensing systems are able to sample one million pieces of data in just one second, Tao added.

The Fuxing bullet train has also applied passive safety technology for the first time. The technology, which uses energy absorption devices, guarantees the non-deformation of passenger in the event of a crash, Ding noted.


----------



## Zaz965

what gorgeous these double decker trains :cheers:


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## FM 2258

tjrgx said:


> http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0929/c90000-9275504.html
> 
> China’s latest high-speed train the Fuxing consumes 3.8 KWh per 100 passenger-km when running at a speed of 350 km/h, according to Chinese newspaper Science and Technology Daily.
> 
> The height of the Fuxing model CR400AF increased to 4.05 meters from 3.7 meters, expanding its section by 7.3%.
> 
> The enlarged locomotive calls for improved aerodynamic performance. In order to achieve this, the design team conducted lots of simulated calculations, wind tunnel tests, and moving model tests, said Ding Sansan, deputy chief-engineer of CSR Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd., the producer of the locomotive.
> 
> After multiple technical evaluations, the final scheme was chosen out of 46 preliminary conceptual plans.
> 
> Compared with older versions of China’s high-speed trains, the Fuxing has 12% lower air resistance and 17% of the energy consumption per 100 km.
> 
> It saves more than 5,000 KWh of electricity for a round trip between Beijing and Shanghai, Ding noted.
> 
> In addition, a number of sensing systems have been added to the train, empowering it with a smarter brain.
> 
> The 2,500 sensors can sample more than 1,500 kinds of information, including vibration, bearing temperature, traction system, and carriage environment, said Tao Guidong, deputy director of technical center of CSR Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd.
> 
> The smart high-precision sensing systems are able to sample one million pieces of data in just one second, Tao added.
> 
> The Fuxing bullet train has also applied passive safety technology for the first time. The technology, which uses energy absorption devices, guarantees the non-deformation of passenger in the event of a crash, Ding noted.


I guess this train will have airbags if in a crash?


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## t2contra

FM 2258 said:


> I guess this train will have airbags if in a crash?


Not made by Takata, without a doubt.


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## tjrgx

*Beijing Winter Olympics high-speed train design unveiled*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-10/10/c_136669411.htm

CHANGCHUN, Oct. 10 (Xinhua) -- The design of the trains that will run on a new high-speed railway line linking Beijing and Zhangjiakou, co-hosts of the 2022 Winter Olympics, was unveiled in Beijing Tuesday.

The Olympic trains will be even "smarter and greener" than the Fuxing bullet trains, which were put for service on the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway in September, according to Chinese railcar maker CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicle Co.

The company said the new trains were designed specifically for the Winter Olympics, featuring a media carriage with WiFi service and TV screens for live broadcasting, an athlete drug testing area and and a storage area for winter sports equipment.

CRRC Changchun also produced subway trains for the Rio Olympics and operated the system smoothly for the duration of the Games last year.

In April 2016, construction began on the world's first ballast track with maximum speed of 350 kph between Beijing and Zhangjiakou. The project is scheduled for completion by the end of 2019 and will shorten the trip between the two cities from the current three hours to just one hour.

Construction also began in 2016 on a 53.2-km extension of the Beijing-Zhangjiakou railway to Hebei's Chongli District, where most of the Olympic skiing events will be held. The trip from Zhangjiakou to Chongli will take 25 minutes.


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## Seksunjd

I Like CRH2E/2G .


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## hkskyline

October 9, 2017 
*New fleet of trains help to showcase nation's expertise *
China Daily _Excerpt_

The development of, and services offered by, new-generation bullet trains will benefit the government's promotion of the country's high-speed railway technology in the international market, according to officials at China Railway Corp.

In a statement published on its website in September, the State-owned railway operator said it plans to design and export bullet trains based on the CR400 Fuxing, or "rejuvenation", model, the nation's newest fleet of trains.

The statement added that the trains will meet the requirements of users overseas and will be competitive in the global market.

As prime examples of China's world-leading expertise, the CR400AF and CR400BF models were put into operation on the Beijing-Shanghai High-speed Railway in late June, running at about 300 kilometers per hour.

On Sept 21, the speed was increased to 350 km/h on the 1,318-km-long line, becoming the world's fastest operational wheeled rail vehicles. Their deployment cut the journey time between the municipalities by 60 minutes, reducing the trip to four and a half hours.

Their development began in 2012 under the Ministry of Railways, the predecessor of CRC, which aspired to manufacture bullet trains with "Chinese standards".

Before Fuxing came into service, trains running on the country's high-speed rail network had been designed and built in accordance with a range of standards in use overseas.

The new models have longer service lives than their predecessors - 30 years compared with 20 - and their streamlined designs allow lower power consumption and more space for every passenger, according to Zhang Bo, a designer at the China Academy of Railway Sciences.

Zhang said the overall design and all of the key parts - such as traction equipment, brakes and the control software - were developed by Chinese engineers.


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## tjrgx

*Promo of China's "Renaissance (Fuxing)" Standardized EMU*


----------



## tjrgx

*Next-Generation Rail Cars Track to Shanghai for Public Debut*

https://www.caixinglobal.com/2017-10-27/101162124.html

A next-generation carriage that will add huge flexibility to China’s high-speed train fleet made its debut in Shanghai this week, sporting a new double-decker design and the potential for specialty short trains to accommodate VIPs.

Dubbed with the temporary name of 3X, the new cars should help China Rail Corp., the national rail operator, in its march to operational profitability, as it seeks to squeeze more money out of its state-of-the-art high-speed rail network, the world’s biggest. Caixin first disclosed details of the new cars in February, and got a glimpse in their first public display at a trade show in Shanghai this week.

Despite its state-of-the-art nature, China’s current fleet of high-speed trains are relatively inflexible, limited by technology constraints to either eight or 16 carriages. The new carriages will eliminate those limitations, allowing for trains from as short as two carriages, which could be used to transport VIPs, to as many as 16.

In addition to their flexibility to meet demand based on seasonal patterns, the new design will also allow for removal of individual cars for maintenance. With the current technology, entire trains must be taken out of service just to make repairs or perform other maintenance to a single carriage.

The new design will also feature double-decker capabilities for all cars, including dining, sleepers and regular seating, which will increase capacity by about 50%, officials told Caixin, in introducing the new designs that will allow a single train to carry more than 1,500 people. Trains will be able to travel at maximum speeds of 350 kph (217.5 mph), matching the new maximum recently rolled out along the popular Shanghai-to-Beijing line. Most other trains currently travel at a maximum speed of 300 kph.

China has spent hundreds of billions of dollars over the last decade building a 22,000-kilometer state-of-the-art high-speed rail network, aiming to create a viable travel alternate for flying along popular shorter routes in the country. It also wants to develop high-tech products that can be exported, and has become an aggressive bidder for high-speed rail projects in both developing and developed markets.

That aggressive expansion was a driving factor behind the merger announced last month between the rail operations of two of its chief global rivals, France’s Alstom and Germany’s Siemens. The latter was also showing off its own next-generation rail car, the ICE4, at the Shanghai event this week. Like the 3X, the Siemens model can be arranged in train configurations of five to 14 carriages, though its maximum speeds are slower, at 230 kph.

The Siemens model has been in testing trials for about a year. The 3X is still undergoing testing at the factory where it is being built by CRRC Corp. Ltd., the nation’s main rail-equipment builder, in the city of Tangshan in North China’s Hebei province. A timetable for the Chinese model’s commercial release has yet to be announced.


----------



## tjrgx

*China’s Fuxing train series proposed to get a new member*

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1071978.shtml

China's Standard Multiple-unit Fuxing train series will get a new member with a top speed of 250 kilometers per hour, China Railway announced on Wednesday. 

China Railway proposed a new series of high-speed trains at a meeting in Shanghai, saying that a train with a top speed of 250 kilometers per hour could meet the needs of different transportation lines, the Xinhua News Agency reported Wednesday. 

Developing high-speed trains with different speeds could also meet people's needs for different forms of transportation and improve the travel experience, said a China Railway official, people.cn reported.

The next step is to decide on a technical plan in two months and the company is trying to have model train in the first half of 2018, with testing to finish by the end of 2018, said Zhang Bo, a research fellow at the China Academy of Railway Sciences, Xinhua reported. 

The new Fuxing will have some breakthroughs, when compared to the "Hexie" series, which has a top speed of 250 kilometers per hour, including total automation, better performance, and increased intelligence, said the China Railway official.


----------



## tjrgx

*China Is Testing Driverless High-Speed Trains*

https://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/china-testing-driverless-high-speed-trains

(Yicai Global) Oct. 27 -- China is developing driverless high-speed trains that could run on the Beijing-Zhangjiakou railway line under construction for the Beijing Winter Olympics in 2022, China Railway Corp. Chief Engineer He Huawu said yesterday at Modern Railways Shanghai 2017.

Smart driverless high-speed trains have been on the agenda, and they will make travelling safer and more punctual, He said.

The autonomous China Railway High-speed (CRH) train is in the testing stage and operators are conducting its trial run along the Beijing-Zhangjiakou Intercity Railway, which awaits its debut for the 2022 Beijing-Zhangjiakou Olympic Winter Games and Beijing Paralympic Games, said He.


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## ScientisT.bass

If it was upto me, I would run these trains on auto pilot and keep the driver there just in case and to keep people comfortable by presenting a "face" in the pilot seat  It will remove all the potential human error. If signaling fails, drivers cannot do much anyway at that speeds.


----------



## tjrgx

*Bullet-Train Maker Puts Freight Plans Back on Track*

https://www.caixinglobal.com/2017-11-03/101165540.html

China’s leading train maker, CRRC Corp., has revived plans to develop high-speed freight trains at speeds of up to 250 kph (155 mph), aiming to take advantage of a national network of tracks for bullet passenger trains.

Two such similar plans petered out in 2014 and 2015, either because of a lack of demand or due to miscommunications with China Railway Corp. (CRC), the nation’s railroad operator, according to sources close to the CRRC.

With the new plan, CRRC hopes to develop a new source of revenue with high-speed freight trains as China’s logistics industry grows more modern, one source close to the company told Caixin.

Because freight trains require fewer parts, they cost less to manufacture than passenger bullet trains, the source added.

CRRC has said that only high-valued cargo such as e-commerce deliveries, rather than bulk commodities like coal, will be transported over high-speed rail lines.

However, industry experts are skeptical about whether there is enough demand for high-speed freight services in a country where planes and trucks dominate the logistics industry. Railways account for only 20% of the country’s logistics traffic.

“Before making any decisions, CRRC should do more market research to figure out the costs. It also needs to work with CRC to determine which bullet-train lines to offer freight service on,” said Xu Yong of cecss.com, an online industry service provider.

Xu said it would be workable to run a freight service only on the busy Beijing-Shanghai and Beijing-Guangzhou lines.

Last month, sources from CRRC told Caixin that the company will shutter half of its freight-car manufacturing capacity to deal with excess capacity. CRRC currently operates 10 freight-car production subsidiaries with total annual production capacity of more than 80,000 vehicles.

In China, most freight trains run on rail lines designed for much slower speeds. The nation’s fastest freight trains, which were put into service starting in 2014, can run up to 160 kph.

The French have been running freight trains at 160 kph since 1984. In 2012, France and Germany unveiled freight trains that can travel at speeds up to 300 kph.


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## Gusiluz

^^ In France, postal trains circulated at 270 km/h, in Germany there is nothing similar.

TGV La Poste



I can not see the picture, so I put the link:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...2/TGV_la_poste_3.jpg/640px-TGV_la_poste_3.jpg

Much more interesting the trains only of merchandise, much better than those that also carry passengers.


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## ccdk

*hmm, 380D with new paint, or a new Fuxing model?*









http://money.163.com/17/1111/10/D2V1KCQ7002581PP.html


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## lkstrknb

Here is a video of the new Fuxing train service between Shanghai and Beijing with lots of interior shots.


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## ccdk

*These belong to CR400AF*
http://news.ifeng.com/a/20171129/53697236_0.shtml


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## tjrgx

*Fuxing bullet train starts operation in southwest China*

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-12/28/c_136857963.htm









^^A steward is seen on a Fuxing bullet train G1372 at Guiyangbei Railway Station in Guiyang, capital of southwest China's Guizhou Province, Dec. 28, 2017. A new train diagram was put into operation in China from today on. G1372 from Kunming, capital of southwest China's Yunnan Province, to Shanghai is the first Fuxing bullet train ever operated in southwest China. (Xinhua/Liu Xu)


----------



## General Huo




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## lawdefender

*16 Standard EMUs of CR400BF-A "Fuxing" with a total length of more than 415 meters
*
http://www.guancha.cn/industry-science/2018_03_09_449605.shtml


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## tjrgx

*New Fuxing high-speed train being tested in Beijing*



lawdefender said:


> *16 Standard EMUs of CR400BF-A "Fuxing" with a total length of more than 415 meters
> *
> http://www.guancha.cn/industry-science/2018_03_09_449605.shtml


^^


----------



## Pansori

tjrgx said:


> ^^


In the video around 0:11 there is a shot of the writing on the train stating that the designated maximum speed for this trainset is 350km/h. Xinhua and all other official Chinese news sources have been touting it as the 'World's fastest bullet train' implying that it can go faster than any other train that operates in China. They also mention 'improvements' over other trains which allow it to go it faster and more efficiently.

I took a screenshot for everyone's convenience









In this shot of the CRH380CL taken from the Internet it is clearly seen that the speed designation is 380km/h which is more than 350km/h (I believe same designation applies to all other CRH380 sries trains, please correct me if I'm wrong)









I have the following questions:

1. Is CR400AF Fuxing slower than CRH380CL and the Chinese media is lying?
2. If the answer to the first question is _No_, does that speed designation on the trains actually mean anything or is it there just for fun? If it doesn't mean anything why is it used then?


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## mrmoopt

Top speeds need to be sustained continuous operation, so two things have happened:

1. Top speed definition changed from sustained continuous operation to the highest speed attainable (non sustained)

2. The revision in sustained top speed to 30km/h lower is a cost-saving measure


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## hightower1

In the Fuxing promo video it states a design speed of *more than 400kph* It doesn't state how much more though.
And a running speed of 350 kph. 
As the previous poster said the 30 kph lower speed is a cost saving measure. 

I guess we need more hard data. 

What is the exact maximum design speed of CR400AF and the CRH380CL and CRH380AL?


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## chornedsnorkack

lawdefender said:


> *16 Standard EMUs of CR400BF-A "Fuxing" with a total length of more than 415 meters
> *
> http://www.guancha.cn/industry-science/2018_03_09_449605.shtml


Quite a sharp curve, and also no barrier on the level crossing. What is the top speed of trains at that spot?


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## Attus

It's obviously near a train depot or the factory. I suppose trains run at 15 or 20 km/h in this section.


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## Gusiluz

The trains homologated at 380 km/h (the CRH380A sure was, the CRH380B C and D I'm not completely sure) never got to circulate at that commercial speed (418 km/h sustained speed in tests = + 10%) by the dismissal from the former Minister of Railways, Liu Zhijun (in February 2011) and the change in the Price and Speed Policy made by Sheng Guangzu in April 2011 (before the accident in Wenzhou). The first line designed to 380 km/h was to be Beijing-Shanghai PDL from June 30 of the same year, but it started at 300. Liu Zhijun was convicted of corruption, and the maximum speed of both trains and lines was questioned.
Be that as it may, until last year, no trains returned to 350 until the new CR400AF and BF did so. If you have not removed the homologation to 380 on the CRH380 trains theoretically could return to circulate to 350 but, to my knowledge, there are no plans in this regard.

Right now the fastest trains in the world in commercial service are the CR400 (350 km/h) followed by the Japanese (E5 E6 and H5) and the French (Réseau, Duplex and Euroduplex), which circulate at 320. Soon in Italy the ETR 400 at 350 km/h.
There are other trains approved at a higher speed, for example the Velaro E Spanish (series 103) that is at 350, but only circulates at 300 or the Velaro e320 (Eurostar 374 class), but it does not circulate on any line with that speed.


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## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Is a bit more because only has two cabins, not four: 1.193 against 556.
> 
> This train has 414 meters long, there are any trains with 430 but: there are platforms for this train 17 cars?


All the Chinese HSR platforms are at least 450 m long.


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## Gusiluz

^^ Thanks for the info!
In the European Union we have agreed that interoperable trains (ETI) have 200 meters, since there are usually no longer trains, except the TMST (Trans Manche Super Train, Eurostar 373 series: 319 / 394 m), its substitute (Eurostar 374 series : 390 m), the new ICE 4 K3s (346 m) and, a long time ago, the ICE 1: 358 m. Some old trains go out of that standar measure, like the TGV Atlantique (238 m) and, in Italy, the E 414 (306 m) and the ETR 500 (328 m). Russia (250 m) and the United Kingdom (234 and 265 m) have their own measures. The interoperable platforms have 400 meters, and the tracks: 420.
But I am surprised at the variety of lengths in China, when they could have set a single standard: 225 meters. Let's see:

196.48 CRH3G
200.00 CRH380B
201.40 CRH2A
201.40 CRH2C
201.40 CRH3C
20???? CRH3X
201.40 CRH6A
201.40 CRH2G
202.00 CRH3A
203.00 CRH380A
208.94 CRH1A-A
209.00 CR400AF
209.00 CR400BF
209.00 New Fuxing Hao two levels daytime
211.50 CRH5A y G
21???? CRH5G NG
21???? CRH5E
213.50 CRH1A
215.30 CRH380D
399.27 CRH380BL
400.47 CRH380CL
401.40 CRH2B
401.40 CRH2E
403.00 CRH380AL
412.80 CRH2E NG
413.30 CR400BFWL? (CRH-0306)
414.00 New Fuxing Hao two levels daytime
414.26 CR400BF-A
426.30 CRH1B
428.90 CRH1E
430.00 CRH1E NG


On the other hand, apart from the new ones Fuxing Hao (CR400AF with CR400BF), some series can be coupled (double traction) to another one?


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## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Thanks for the info!
> In the European Union we have agreed that interoperable trains (ETI) have 200 meters, since there are usually no longer trains, except the TMST (Trans Manche Super Train, Eurostar 373 series: 319 / 394 m), its substitute (Eurostar 374 series : 390 m), the new ICE 4 K3s (346 m) and, a long time ago, the ICE 1: 358 m. Some old trains go out of that standar measure, like the TGV Atlantique (238 m) and, in Italy, the E 414 (306 m) and the ETR 500 (328 m). Russia (250 m) and the United Kingdom (234 and 265 m) have their own measures. The interoperable platforms have 400 meters, and the tracks: 420.
> But I am surprised at the variety of lengths in China, when they could have set a single standard: 225 meters. Let's see:
> 
> 196.48 CRH3G
> 200.00 CRH380B
> 201.40 CRH2A
> 201.40 CRH2C
> 201.40 CRH3C
> 20???? CRH3X
> 201.40 CRH6A
> 201.40 CRH2G
> 202.00 CRH3A
> 203.00 CRH380A
> 208.94 CRH1A-A
> 209.00 CR400AF
> 209.00 CR400BF
> 209.00 New Fuxing Hao two levels daytime
> 211.50 CRH5A y G
> 21???? CRH5G NG
> 21???? CRH5E
> 213.50 CRH1A
> 215.30 CRH380D
> 399.27 CRH380BL
> 400.47 CRH380CL
> 401.40 CRH2B
> 401.40 CRH2E
> 403.00 CRH380AL
> 412.80 CRH2E NG
> 413.30 CR400BFWL? (CRH-0306)
> 414.00 New Fuxing Hao two levels daytime
> 414.26 CR400BF-A
> 426.30 CRH1B
> 428.90 CRH1E
> 430.00 CRH1E NG
> 
> 
> On the other hand, apart from the new ones Fuxing Hao (CR400AF with CR400BF), some series can be coupled (double traction) to another one?


 CRH can be coupled with another one in the same type but Not sure if a CRH5A can be with a CRH5G. This is the reason they want to develop CR series, also called Chinese standard, so they can be coupled. A CR400AL can be coupled with a CR400BL.


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## General Huo

What's new: China launches new self-developed bullet train

China has added a new model to its self-developed high-speed trains, known as "Fuxing." 






China's new, longer Fuxing high-speed trains start operation

More than 400 meters long! Three new longer Fuxing bullet trains start operation on a high-speed line linking Beijing with Shanghai.


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## cheehg

It is an interesting site about CRH and CR train sets. Although it is a Chinese site but there are many pictures and tech spec.


https://www.china-emu.cn/


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## Gusiluz

^^ Thank you very much for the web
Here are all the data, I just hope they update it.

At first glance, my sum results 2,714 HST
Here is its evolution according to my compilation, the data for June is from the UIC.


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## Gusiluz

*Fleet series*

Based on the tenth anniversary website (thanks again *cheehg*!) I have redrafted my HST list.

They are grouped by car bodies, that is to say: I group the CRH5A and the CRH5G because their characteristics are identical, they only differ in that the G is adapted to adverse weather conditions.
But, apart from the enormous magnitude, it is tremendously complex. For example, the first 20 CRH1B trains were manufactured on the Bombardier Regina platform, but the last 5 (identical in everything else) did on the Bombardier Zefiro 250 platform. Meanwhile, the first 15 CRH1E (sleeper cars) trains were built on the Bombardier Zefiro 250 platform, but the last 5 (identical in everything else) did on the platform Bombardier Zefiro 250 NG (New Generation). Also the first generation of CRH1A trains were manufactured on the Bombardier Regina platform, but the last ones (at least they are not only 5 because they already have 87 CRH1A-A) they did it on the Bombardier Zefiro 250 NG platform and they changed their denomination. But they are not aesthetically the same either: the Zefiro 250 NG sleeper cars have two small windows on the side of the cabin, while the diurnals trains have only a small white space. And all this speaking only of the CRH1 series.
The development of Conmuter trains (CJ) trains was also complicated, with prototypes that continue to circulate and series, such as the CRH6A, which have versions (not included here) for 160 km/h: CRH6F; there is also CRH6F-A.
And, finally, night trains. In the first generation there were two series of 20 trains each (CRH1E and CRH2E), but in the third, like the CRH2E NG, has very short series: two trains of a single level, and three of two levels. The same happens with the CRH5E and there is, in addition, another single train: the CRH3X.
The new generation Fuxing Hao (Rejuvenation, CR****F, while the first was: Hexie = Hexiehao, Harmony, CRH****) continues on the same path but with only two manufacturers. In a short time there are already two series of "large" trains of the same manufacturer: the CR400BF-A with 16 cars and the CR400BF-B with 17.
In addition to the change of the numbering of each train.


“Literas” means sleeper cars.
CJ means commuter train.
G means that it is prepared for adverse weather conditions: cold, altitude, strong winds, sand and heat.
“Dos pisos” means two levels.
There is a CRH5G high power train with 7,200 kW.
The CRH3X was not for 350 km/h?
According to the UIC there were 88 CRH5G in June, on the tenth anniversary website it is only updated as of December 2017 (only 72).

Link to messages to help visually distinguish these trains:
CRH series
Significant differences 1
Significant differences 2
Significant differences 3
Significant differences 4


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## portopia

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Thanks for the info!
> In the European Union we have agreed that interoperable trains (ETI) have 200 meters, since there are usually no longer trains, except the TMST (Trans Manche Super Train, Eurostar 373 series: 319 / 394 m), its substitute (Eurostar 374 series : 390 m), the new ICE 4 K3s (346 m) and, a long time ago, the ICE 1: 358 m. Some old trains go out of that standar measure, like the TGV Atlantique (238 m) and, in Italy, the E 414 (306 m) and the ETR 500 (328 m). Russia (250 m) and the United Kingdom (234 and 265 m) have their own measures. The interoperable platforms have 400 meters, and the tracks: 420.
> But I am surprised at the variety of lengths in China, when they could have set a single standard: 225 meters. Let's see:
> 
> 196.48 CRH3G
> 200.00 CRH380B
> 201.40 CRH2A
> 201.40 CRH2C
> 201.40 CRH3C
> 20???? CRH3X
> 201.40 CRH6A
> 201.40 CRH2G
> 202.00 CRH3A
> 203.00 CRH380A
> 208.94 CRH1A-A
> 209.00 CR400AF
> 209.00 CR400BF
> 209.00 New Fuxing Hao two levels daytime
> 211.50 CRH5A y G
> 21???? CRH5G NG
> 21???? CRH5E
> 213.50 CRH1A
> 215.30 CRH380D
> 399.27 CRH380BL
> 400.47 CRH380CL
> 401.40 CRH2B
> 401.40 CRH2E
> 403.00 CRH380AL
> 412.80 CRH2E NG
> 413.30 CR400BFWL? (CRH-0306)
> 414.00 New Fuxing Hao two levels daytime
> 414.26 CR400BF-A
> 426.30 CRH1B
> 428.90 CRH1E
> 430.00 CRH1E NG
> 
> 
> On the other hand, apart from the new ones Fuxing Hao (CR400AF with CR400BF), some series can be coupled (double traction) to another one?


I think HSR trainsets are always made to very specific demands of a determined route, that helps explaining the difference in lengths. At least in Japan they rarely (never?) exchange trains between routes, although the trunk lines and stations are shared among different sets. The platforms, of course, have different door markings well signed for each different line, so you know where the train you are going to take will stop. Probably same in China.


----------



## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> Based on the tenth anniversary website (thanks again *cheehg*!) I have redrafted my HST list.
> 
> 
> There is a CRH5G high power train with 7,200 kW.
> The CRH3X was not for 350 km/h?
> According to the UIC there were 88 CRH5G in June, on the tenth anniversary website it is only updated as of December 2017 (only 72).
> [/URL]


CRH5G high power is modified because the Lanzhou-Xinjiang HSR has higher mountain area. The regular CRH5G doesn't perform well. so they made the high power version. If it goes well they may make more and give a new name. 

Same situation on Xi'An-Chengdu line because the downgrading of the line from 350km/h to 250km/h but the basic line design didn't change much. 250km/h train set CRH3A lost too much speed on long uphill section south of Xi'an. so now this line uses mostly CRH380 series. 

CRH3X They just released pictures of a sample train. I just saw the pictures on other site. And this name is not final so could be changed to something else too. here is the link if you want to see the pictures.

https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5833368389?pn=1


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## cheehg

rafaelbretas said:


> I think HSR trainsets are always made to very specific demands of a determined route, that helps explaining the difference in lengths. At least in Japan they rarely (never?) exchange trains between routes, although the trunk lines and stations are shared among different sets. The platforms, of course, have different door markings well signed for each different line, so you know where the train you are going to take will stop. Probably same in China.


In China's case, because the first generation of CRHs were from different platforms. This is why they want to do the CR series to unify. 
CR change the train sets often. basically give the new train sets to main trunk lines (BJ-SH, BJ-GZ). 

The Chinese stations also have marker for doors for different trains by different colors.


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## mfranjic

I am exceptionally grateful to all those who contribute to this, to me personally, highly interesting topic. I know from my personal experience that following the development and appearance of the new types of Chinese high-speed trains is all but simply task, especially in the absence of the quality sources of information, either in English or Chinese language.

In my *previous post*, almost a year ago, I have expressed my conviction that the new generation of Chinese EMU high-speed trains *Fuxing Hao*: *CRRC Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. CR400AF* and *CRRC Changchun Railw. Veh. Co., Ltd. CR400BF* and their versions are probably powered by *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co. Ltd.YQ-625* (735 kg; 650 kW) three-phase asynchronous traction motors and this proved to be correct.

China's first high-speed train equipped with *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co. Ltd. TQ-600* (635 kg; 690 kW) permanent magnet synchronous traction motor has passed the test of the first-round line with the *CRRC Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. CRH380A* high-speed EMU. This means that China's high-speed rail power is undergoing revolutionary changes and has become one of the few countries in the world to master the 'permanent magnet high-speed rail' traction technology. After experiencing 'DC' and 'AC', the world's rail transit vehicle traction technology is developing towards the 3.0 version of the permanent magnet drive technology. 

Compared with the *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co. Ltd. YQ-365 * (465 kg; 385 kW) asynchronous traction motor of the existing *CRH380A* high-speed EMU, the weight of the *TQ-600* permanent magnet synchronous traction motor is reduced by 35%, while the efficiency will increase by more than 3% and energy saving by more than 10%. Calculated by a series of 8 high-speed trains to the Beijing-Shanghai line every day, after loading the permanent magnet synchronous traction motor, it can save more than 1 million kilowatt-hours a year.

*CSR Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. CRH380AL*, *16*-car train, configuration *14M2T*, powered by 56 *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd YQ-365*, 3-phase, 4-pole, asynchronous traction motors, each rated at 385 kW, with the total traction motors' power of 21.560 kW / 28.912 hp (29.313 PS) has dry mass of 836,5 t. If we would like to replace those 56 TMs with their total mass of 26.040 kg with the *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co. Ltd. YQ-625* (735 kg; 650 kW), three-phase, asynchronous traction motors of the very approximate total mass, we get 36 *YQ-625* TMs could be installed in the train, which means *16*-car train in *9M7T* configuration with the total power of 22.500 kW / 30.173 hp (30.591 PS). And if we would like to do the same thing, but this time replacing *YQ-365* TMs by using *TQ-600* permanent magnet synchronous traction motors, we get 40 *TQ-600* TMs could be installed in the train, which means *16*-car train in *10M6T* configuration with the total power of 27.600 kW / 37.012 hp (37.526 PS). The logical question that is imposed is how many *TQ-600* permanent magnet synchronous traction motors would be needed for the very approximate value of current power output. The answer is 32 TMs of the *TQ-600* type with the total TMs' mass of 20.320 kg. This is 5.720 kg less than with the current 56 *YQ-365*, 3-phase, 4-pole, asynchronous traction motors…

I just can't remember if I have ever invested so much effort working on any database like in this one of Chinese high-speed trains, and the best thing is ... I have no idea if it worths anything at all. Judge Yourself ...










Kind regards

Mario


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## Gusiluz

^^ Thank you very much for the table.

Some details that I have seen:
According to the website of the tenth anniversary there is a CRH2G (the 0001) with 5,840 kW thanks to each engine has 365 kW with YQ365 motor.
In your table missing CJ1 (exCRH3A).
On the CRRC website


> YQ-625, traction motor installed in CR400AF, Chinas standard EMU, is independently developed and manufactured By CRRC Zhuzhou Electric Co.,ltd, showcasing strong traction power and upgrading power from 9600 KW to 10000 KW.


Why 10,000 if they are 10400? Will it be the power in the wheel?

By the way, on the web of the tenth anniversary explains that the CR400BF has engines of 650 kW and the total power is 10140 but really 650 x 16 = 10400.

I do not find anything else, and that is very difficult because the information that is found is wrong many times: congratulations.


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## mfranjic

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Thank you very much for the table.


You are very welcome, Gusiluz and thanks for Your excellent cooperation. If I had to guess, and that only once, who would react to my post first, if anybody at all, I would certainly hit it…



Gusiluz said:


> Some details that I have seen:
> 
> According to the website of the tenth anniversary there is a CRH2G (the 0001) with 5,840 kW thanks to each engine has 365 kW with YQ365 motor.


You are right and now this version of the *CRH2G* train could also be found in the database in my *previous post* I have edited by inserting a modified version of the database *v.2* in it.



Gusiluz said:


> In your table missing CJ1 (exCRH3A).


Not anymore…



Gusiluz said:


> Why 10,000 if they are 10400? Will it be the power in the wheel?
> 
> By the way, on the web of the tenth anniversary explains that the CR400BF has engines of 650 kW and the total power is 10140 but really 650 x 16 = 10400.


The vast majority of the sources do not take into account (or do not understand) the difference in between the total power of the traction motors measured on their axles and the train's total power output measured at the wheels' rims. In this particular case 10.400 kW (20.800 kW) is the traction motors' total power, and 10.140 kW (20.280 kW) is power measured at the wheels' rims.

...Last year I have even refered to the Chinese Embassy in Croatia kindly asking to translate for me one phrase. It was a question of whether some power was measured on the motor shaft or at the wheels. I received the answer a few days later after they asked for a help Chinese military attaché in Croatia. In the meantime I cut out the image with the text (the one that could not be copied) and compare it visualy with the different translations to Chinese language of that what I thought could be the case… Want more?



Gusiluz said:


> … and that is very difficult because the information that is found is wrong many times


Yes, a lot of wrong data could be found out there … I agree. If you want to drive someone crazy till the unconsciousness, just give him to make a database of Chinese high speed trains. By doing that myself, I have proved to myself, once again, that I'm not healthy-minded person. Not at all. I have wondered countless times what did I need all that in my life. Otherwise, I could say for myself that I am very persistent and pretty dedicated person; I have voluntarily donated my blood *215* times.



Gusiluz said:


> …congratulations.


Thank You very much, Gusiluz. For everything.

I would also like to thank and to all of You who have, by showing You liked my post, made me think I have managed to make something useful and interesting.

Kind regards 

Mario


----------



## cheehg

some source said 17 car CR400AF already made. the train number is CR400AF-B-2117. It will be used for BJ-SH HSR line.


----------



## cheehg

More pictures of the CRH3X. It is more versatile than I thought. It has Double deck car, sleeper car, business coach, VIP coach, seat-convert-sleeper car, dinner car with cargo space. the combination ranges from 2-20 cars. So it can be used for short to mediate distance intercity to long distance overnight routes. 
It also can be 250-350 km/h speed capacity using different power car combinations. 

see pictures from below link:
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5857353751


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## Gusiluz

^^ Thanks, that's why I had scored 350 km / h. 
That means that it is really a technological family from which different series will emerge.
The one that appears on the website of the tenth anniversary will be the minimum: 2M 6T 8320 kW 250 kmh and 377 seats, without definitive denomination.


----------



## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Thanks, that's why I had scored 350 km / h.
> That means that it is really a technological family from which different series will emerge.
> The one that appears on the website of the tenth anniversary will be the minimum: 2M 6T 8320 kW 250 kmh and 377 seats, without definitive denomination.


Yes someone said it is 350km/h.
You may check on CRRC Weixin public account for information. 
the interesting part is it used the intercontinental High-speed train design I saw before using double deck car with lower level as cargo. CR already use the testing trains for packages from e-commercial business sections (the first confirming trains after the maintenance to check if everything is ok). Normally those trains run empty.


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## Gusiluz

^^ In Spain they are called explorer trains. It can be a locomotive, an empty train or with passengers at 200 as if it were a conventional train.

China's Concept Intercontinental High Speed Train maqueta 2017: 
China's Concept Intercontinental High Speed Train fr-lat "One Belt, One Road": 
China's Concept Intercontinental High Speed Train lat: 
China's Concept Intercontinental High Speed Train vista int 2 pisos: 
China's Concept Intercontinental High Speed Train asientos: 
China's Concept Intercontinental High Speed Train = vista int 2 pisos: 
China's Concept Intercontinental High Speed Train vídeo:


----------



## Gusiluz

*CRH3X*

CRH3X sleeper 350 km/h 4M 4R derived from CRH3C: 
CRH3X camas 350 km/h 4M 4R plazas: 



flankerjun said:


> vehicle conceptual design for cargo high speed train


----------



## mfranjic

cheehg said:


> More pictures of the CRH3X … It also can be 250-350 km/h speed capacity using different power car combinations.


According to the available data visible in the Reference List of the traction transformers *ABB Datong Traction Transformers Co., Ltd.*, a joint venture of ABB (China) Ltd. and CRRC Datong Co., Ltd., founded in 2005, the *CRH3X* HST produced by *CRRC Tangshan Railw. Veh. Co., Ltd.* is, at this moment, in a 250 km/h speed range.










Gusiluz said:


> Thanks, that's why I had scored 350 km/h.
> That means that it is really a technological family from which different series will emerge.
> The one that appears on the website of the tenth anniversary will be the minimum: 2M 6T 8320 kW 250 kmh...


I find it a little bit confusing the mentioned power of 8.320 kW (measured at the wheels' rims) was distributed through the *2M6T* train configuration. Namely, the power output of some 1,1 MW per axle seems to me pretty high, not because it is technically not feasible, but rather due to the fact that such a train would present a deviation from the usual conception of the distributed power Chinese factories apply in the building their EMU HSTs. That's why I am I'm somehow more inclined to think …



Gusiluz said:


> CRH3X sleeper 350 km/h 4M 4R derived from CRH3C: …


… that's right ... that *CRH3X* train of the mentioned power output has *4M4T* configuration, the same as the *CRH3C* HST train, powered by 16 *Siemens*' 3-phase asynchronus traction motors *1TB2019-0GC02*, each 550 kW. If we would like to link some probable facts, then we can conclude that 8,8 MW of traction motors' total power is indisputably enough for the 350 km/h, but more probably obtained by the *4M4T* train configuration rather than that *2M6T* that is more appropriate for the speeds of up to 250 km/h, the speeds for which *CRRC Tangshan RV Co.,Ltd.* could also use the same *4M4T* train configuration, but incorporating less powerful *Siemens*' 3-phase asynchronus traction motors of type *1TB2016-0GB02* with the power of 300 kW, and it means 4.800 kW of the TMs' power in total. With the different number of cars, trains' configurations and traction motor types, there is really a wide range of possibilities how to design a trains of required performances…

Regardless of the above mentioned facts, the *CRH3X* could be definitely considered as a different HST conception, where the traction power is arranged more similarly to the locomotive-pulled high-speed trains with the two power heads (power-concentrated EMUs), before than to the distributed tractioned electric multiple units (EMU), with the basic difference here that all the cars are intended for the carriage of the passengers, including the power heads that hold the traction equipment placed on their bottom, while the auxiliary converters and some other equipment are placed on the trailers' bottoms.

The fact is there are drawbacks in the use of EMUs. The existing EMUs are fixed in the groups of certain number of semi-permanently coupled cars that can't be easily removed or added, so the basic idea here is to design the trains that could be easily formed in the configuration which is, given the expected inflow of passengers, needed at that time.

The *CRRC Tangshan Railw. Veh. Co., Ltd. CRH3X* train concept is divided into the two platforms; one is a 250 km/h speed platform and the other one is 350 km/h speed platform, where the 250 km/h platform can be expanded in interval of 160-300 km/h, and the 350 km/h platform into 200-350 km/h speed interval. Each car is a separate unit. The power car is completely independent and separate unit containing a traction power integrated unit, a brake unit, a waste discharge unit, a cooling fan … placed at the bottom of the power car, while the the intermediate, single-level trailers and the double-deck trailers carry some other subsystems and equipment essential for the so assembled train to operate as a functional unit.

There are a lot of traps and not just easily solving problems (auxiliary converters' and power supplies' capacities, gearboxes' transmissions' ratios …) with this concept of the train, but we can discuss them some other time. Honestly, nor with the best will, I can't consider *CRH0307-001* train to be a prototype but would rather prefer to regard it as a concept proof design of several new technologies and innovations. This EMU is far away from being mass produced, but indubitably helping its designers to realize the flexibility of EMU grouping and the formatting the trains.

Quite understandable, different railway operators have different operational requirements, and manufacturers often need to redesign the trains for different demands and needs, which is time consuming and very expensive work. On the platform of the variable composing EMUs, manufacturers would be able to deliver suitable trains to railway operators faster, but … we will see what will be out of all this …

***

I just can't stop feeling sorry that between all these Chinese high speed trains, one model, I would like to see with a great curiosity, hasn't seen the daylight. Just for this purpose, let us call it *CRH380AJL*. I have imagined this HST to be designed on the base of the serial *CRH380AL* and *CRH380AJ* test train. The *CRH380AJL* train, produced by *CSR Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd.* is a *16*-car train, train configuration: *16M0T*, axle arrangement: *16 x Bo-Bo*, powered by 64 *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd YQ-420*, 3-phase, 4-pole, asynchronous traction motors (TM), each rated at 420 kW (2.300 V; 130 A; 4.150 rpm), with the total traction motors' power of 26.880 kW / 36.547 PS (36.047 hp). I just wonder what speed would such a designed train be able to reach…

This train with all powered axles wouldn't be exception in that sense, since at least one HST I can remember in this moment was powered by as many motors as it had axles and it was *Hitachi* / *Kawasaki Heavy Industries Rolling Stock Company* / *Kinki Sharyo* / *Nippon Sharyo* *500-series* Shinkansen (*W1* set), *16*-car train, train configuration: *16M0T,* axle arrangement: *16 x Bo-Bo*, powered by 64 *Hitachi WMT204* asynchronous TMs, each rated at 285 kW, with the total power of 18.240 kW / 24.800 PS (24.460 hp). Between 2008 and 2010, eight of the original nine, *500-series* Shinkansen sets have been shortened from 16 to 8 cars (*V* sets, *500-7000* series), train configuration: *8M*, for use on Sanyo Shinkansen Kodama services and since then *Hitachi* / *Kawasaki Heavy Industries Rolling Stock Company* / *Kinki Sharyo* / *Nippon Sharyo* *N700A* series Shinkansen, *16*-car train, train configuration: *14M2T*, axle arrangement: *2-2 + 14 x Bo-Bo + 2-2*, powered by 56 *Hitachi WMT208* asynchronous TMs, each rated at 305 kW, with the ΣTMp of 17.080 kW / 23.222 PS (22.905 hp) is the most powerful Shinkansen train…

Furthermore, the *CRH380AJL* train would not be the first one based on the *CRH380A* design with the powered end-car since the *CRH380AJ*, *8*-car test train, train configuration: *7M1T*, axle arrangement: *2-2 + 7 x Bo-Bo*, based on *CRH400A* (initially *CIT400A*) train has one of its end cars powered. Otherwise, the three trains of that type (*CRH380AJ-0201*/*0202*/*0203*) are all powered by 28 *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd YQ-420* asynchronous traction motors, each rated at 420 kW, with the total traction motors' power of 11.760 kW / 15.989 PS (15.770 hp). This test train was designed for a maximum test speed of 500 km/h.

On 03. Dec 2010 standard *CRH380AL* train, reg. *CRH380A-6041L*, *16*-car train, train configuration: *14M2T*, axle arrangement: *2-2 + 14 x Bo-Bo + 2-2*, powered by 56 *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd YQ-365* asynchronous TMs, each rated at 385 kW, with the ΣTMp of 21.560 kW / 29.313 PS (28.912 hp), reached the maximum speed of *486,1 km/h* (302,0 mph). Unlike this standard train, on 09. Jan 2011 a modified *12*-car *CRH380BL* train, reg. *CRH380B-6402L*, train configuration: *8M4T* (instead of standard 8M8T configuration), axle arrangement: *Bo-Bo + 2-2 + 2 x Bo-Bo + 2-2 + 2 x Bo-Bo + 2-2 + 2 x Bo-Bo + 2-2 + Bo-Bo*, powered by 32 *CRRC Yongji Electric Co., Ltd. YJ105C* asynchronous TMs, each rated at 586 kW, with the ΣTMp of 18.752 kW / 25.496 PS (25.147 hp), reached the speed of *487,3 km/h* (302,8 mph)…

I would also like to mention here one more and very important test train, *CRH380AM* (initially *CRH500* / *CIT500*). The train with the registration *CRH380AM-0204* is the latest high-speed comprehensive test train of the China Railway. It is deployed under the Ministry of Science and Technology and the Ministry of Railways of the People's Republic of China. The test train was developed by *CSR Qingdao Sifang Locomotive Co., Ltd.* and it is a *6*-car train, train configuration: *6M*, axle arrangement: *6 x Bo-Bo*. Based on the *CRH380A* EMU HST, the head car and the tail car adopt two *different end cars' noses'* designs. The train is powered by 24 *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd YQ-600*, 3-phase, asynchronous traction motors, each rated at 950 kW, thus reaching the traction motors' total power of 22.800 kW / 30.999 PS (30.575 hp). The train was designed to break the record of *574,8 km/h* achieved by the French test train *V150*. Unlike those mentioned Chinese test HSTs, the French *V150* record train had somewhat different *propulsion system*. This train was comprising the axle arrangement: *Bo-Bo + 2-(Bo)(Bo)-2 + Bo-Bo*, where each of two power heads (locomotives) of the existing *TGV POS 4402* train were powered by four *Alstom 6 FHA 3657*, 3-phase, 6-pole, asynchronous traction motors, each rated at 1.160 kW @ 25 kV AC / 1.960 kW @ 31 kV AC, while each of two AGV bogies of the newly produced *TGV Duplex* cars had two *Alstom 12 LCS 3550 C*, 12-poles, permanent magnet synchronous traction motors, each rated at 760 kW @ 25 kV AC / 1.000 kW @ 31 kV AC, installed. The combined traction motors' power ouput, when achieving a speed record, was 19.680 kW / 26.757 PS (26.391 hp) @ 31 kV AC. I'm sure it was technically feasible to fit and the remaining two boogies by *Alstom 12 LCS 3550 C*, permanent magnet synchronous traction motors, so the train with the axle arrangement: *Bo-Bo + Bo-(Bo)(Bo)-Bo + Bo-Bo* would have the combined traction motors' power ouput 23.680 kW / 32.196 PS (31.755 hp) @ 31 kV AC, but the main question is if that power would be usable and transferable to the rails …

***

In the extended, *v.3*, version of that previous *v.2* version of the Chinese high speed trains' database, there are some new columns now and definetely somewhat more rows since I have added in it the Japanese Shinkansen trains, those in the current use …










Kind regards

Mario


----------



## cheehg

2022 Beijing winter Olympic train sets. Those trains will be used for the HSR line from Beijing to Zhangjiakou and Chongli. 

https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5952596726


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## Gusiluz

^^ They are CR400AF with different colors:
















Thank you!

On that same page are the *new Fuxing CR300AF and CR300BF* high speed trains (HST), not like the CR400AF and CR400BF that are for very high speed (VHST).
I imagine that for a maximum commercial speed of 250 km/h.









An interesting website.


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## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ They are CR400AF with different colors:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> On that same page are the *new Fuxing CR300AF and CR300BF* high speed trains (HST), not like the CR400AF and CR400BF that are for very high speed (VHST).
> I imagine that for a maximum commercial speed of 250 km/h.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An interesting website.


The blue one is CR400BF. CR400AF is red.


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## cheehg

CRRC’s new cargo high speed train. 
https://v.qq.com/iframe/player.html?vid=y0703qlod6s&auto=0


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## foxmulder

cheehg said:


> CRRC’s new cargo high speed train.
> https://v.qq.com/iframe/player.html?vid=y0703qlod6s&auto=0


Very nice concept.


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## foxmulder

cheehg said:


> 2022 Beijing winter Olympic train sets. Those trains will be used for the HSR line from Beijing to Zhangjiakou and Chongli.
> 
> https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5952596726


Please share hi-res pictures too, when available.


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## cheehg

foxmulder said:


> Very nice concept.


they already use regular HSR train to ship cargo for express carriers (mainly e-commercial parcels) using test trains and non-peak hour trains.


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## cheehg

CR300 samples
I like the blue color.

https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5983479738


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## loefet

cheehg said:


> CR300 samples
> I like the blue color.
> 
> https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5983479738


I'm pretty sure that they are either white or silver, the blue tint is just lighting.

They look really good though!


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## cheehg

It is blue. Those are just samples not necessary the final.


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## saiho

Non-functional show model of the CR400BF to be used in the Beijing–Zhangjiakou intercity railway in time for the 2022 Olympics.


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## lawdefender

On December 24th, China Railway Corporation announced the new model of the Fuxing family.



http://www.sohu.com/a/284046962_260616


1.CR400BF-B (350km/h)


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## lawdefender

2. CR300BF (250km/h)


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## lawdefender

3. CR200J (160km/h)


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## lawdefender

China leads into era of automated trains


http://www.ecns.cn/business/2019-01-03/detail-ifzcitha9949990.shtml
0 2019-01-03 10:36:07China DailyEditor : Mo Hong'eECNS App Download
China's high-speed rail service is the world's leader as the era of automated high-speed trains approaches, with its core technologies and products all domestically made, said Lu Dongfu, general manager of China Railway Corp, on Wednesday.

Tests of the automated high-speed system were carried out successfully on railways linking Beijing and Shenyang, Liaoning province, from July to September, with total trial mileage of more than 186,000 kilometers.

"The use of automatic train operations in lieu of manual driving has become a reality. Many subways have already applied the automatic operation systems," an expert from the China Academy of Railway Sciences Corp told Science and Technology Daily.

He said that CRC put the system into operation in the Dongguan-Huizhou and Foshan-Zhaoqing intercity railways in Guangdong province, with speeds of 200 kilometers per hour - a first worldwide.

Using the system, the train can automatically start, run between stations, adjust its timing according to the schedule, accurately stop at a station and open and close its doors, which increases operating efficiency and avoids congestion, delays and accidents, the expert said.

The system will be put into operation in 2022 on the railway line that will link Beijing and Zhangjiakou, Hebei province, host cities of the 2022 Winter Olympics, with a designed speed up to 350 km/h.


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## Gusiluz

^^ Well, it is an ATO system, like many others that operate on trains around the world, including high-speed trains, although it is especially useful in the commuter trains and the subway.
An example is the ATO on ETCS Level 2 in the London Thameslink (March 17 2018). In Spain it is in the Full Supervision driving mode with ETCS 1 or 2 (102 103 and 112 series) and with LZB in the C5 Madrid commuter line (446 series).
In China it is Automatic Train Operation (ATO) over China Train Control System (CTCS) Level 3 equivalent to ETCS 2.

More information on these topics in your own Thread: MISC | ERTMS adoption & implementation.

The prototype will have two different noses -like the Japanese- to test in the tunnels, or finally they will do two trains?


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## Gusiluz

Machine vision to support autonomous trains. Railway Gazette today
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...hine-vision-to-support-autonomous-trains.html



> US-based visual perception technology company PerceptIn has worked with rolling stock manufacturer CRRC to develop a long-range machine vision device for high speed trains which it says can automatically detect obstacles up to 1 000 m ahead, providing autonomous driving systems with the time needed to react.
> 
> PerceptIn is now in discussions with CRRC for an initial deployment on Chinese trains operating at up to 300 km/h.
> 
> ‘LiDAR sensors, which are commonly used in autonomous driving scenarios, suffer from a lack of detection range and semantic information, making them unsuitable for high speed applications’, said Shaoshan Liu, Founder and CEO of PerceptIn. ‘Visual perception is currently the best solution that can be used in high-speed scenarios. With our 1 000 m visual perception technology, we’ve created the longest range visual perception capabilities for high speed rail while ensuring safety with critical functions such as obstacle avoidance and object detection.’


That vision thousand meters ahead is much more useful in conventional trains.


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## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> Machine vision to support autonomous trains. Railway Gazette today
> https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...hine-vision-to-support-autonomous-trains.html
> 
> 
> 
> That vision thousand meters ahead is much more useful in conventional trains.


Maybe in USA the track ATP system is not up to date. Modern signal system should have automatically detect anything on the track and send back signal to red.


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## gao7

*In pics: Track laying work of Beijing-Zhangjiakou high-speed railway line partly completed*




























> Workers lay the tracks for the Beijing-Zhangjiakou high-speed railway line at Guanting Reservoir grand bridge in north China's Hebei Province, on Jan. 13, 2019.


http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-01/14/c_137741167.htm


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## saiho

Double Deck HSR EMUs under development by CRRC. 

 

 

 

 



Source


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## General Huo




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## zergcerebrates

saiho said:


> Double Deck HSR EMUs under development by CRRC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source




Wow this train is nice. Is this type for export? Or Domestic? The colors looks like the ones used in Switzerland.


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## Zaz965

this double deck train is awesome


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## Gusiluz

*CRH3X*

^^ It is known as *Transformers *(Its official provisional name is CRH3X) because it is manufactured by modules.
The operator, either CRH like any foreigner if he asks for it, has several options:
Traction systems, train control systems and couplings have been configured to simplify the removal and insertion of individual vehicles.
CRRC Tangshan plans to offer the train in 160, 250 and 350km/h variants.

The restaurant car is equipped with freight compartments in the lower deck to carry insulated and refrigerated containers. The train has also been designed to accommodate small freight containers.
VIP class:













Here they explain it.


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## General Huo

Interior exposed for trainsets for Beijing-Zhangjiakou HSR (2022 Winter Olympia)
http://www.sohu.com/a/294518169_749996


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## General Huo




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## hmmwv

The double decker looks great, I like the sleeper car very much. I hope CRC will open more overnight routes.


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## saiho

CR300AF and CR300BF

by 大辽201512


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## hmmwv

So are CR300AF (Qingdao) and CR300BF (Changchun) suppose to compete for the 250km/h class HSR trainset order, or it'll be like the old days when both types will be ordered?


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## saiho

CRH6A-A at Xipu 

By 羊局驼段


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## foxmulder

General Huo said:


>


Those numbers quoted are incredible for efficiency.


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## saiho

Shenzhen North by SS8-0054


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## General Huo

> A major breakthrough! China rolls off production line a prototype magnetic-levitation train. It has a designed top speed of 600 km per hour. More: xhne.ws/O6gr5


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## Leonxu4198

Is Fuxing Hao a member of CRH?


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## Arnorian

How long before BJ-SH HSR gets saturated, and a maglev line becomes necessary?


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## hmmwv

Probably equally important is the fact that CRRC is seriously developing cargo high speed rail trainsets.


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## cheehg

Arnorian said:


> How long before BJ-SH HSR gets saturated, and a maglev line becomes necessary?


Some sections already have 150-160 pair trains a day.


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## lawdefender

400 km per hour high-speed train will be completed at the end of the year


https://www.thepaper.cn/newsDetail_forward_3687637
http://www.ces.cn/news/show-136905.html

On June 15th, at the 2019 World Transportation Congress, Wang Lei, director designer and senior engineer of China Railway Changchun Railway Bus Co., Ltd., revealed the above information in an interview with The paper news (www.thepaper.cn).

Wang Lei revealed that the specific objective of the project is to develop three high-speed trains with speeds of 400 kilometers per hour, equipped with 600-1676 mm variable structure bogies, as well as active safety and active operation and maintenance technology, and transnational connectivity technology specifications. Regarding the follow-up plan, Wang Lei said that the speed of 400 kilometers per hour high-speed train group at the end of the line real car, after which will be tested on the domestic railway line.

The model also meets Russian standards and is ready for future entry into the Russian market.

According to Wang Lei, the speed of 400 kilometers per hour high-speed train group has 6 technical characteristics: 

1. the world's fastest speed of operation. the operating speed of 400 kilometers per hour, test speed of 440 kilometers per hour. 

2. it has the ability to adjust to foreign railway gauge. With a variable gauge of 1435/1520mm, multi-system power supply and multi-type signal.

3. low energy consumption, lightweight green environmental protection vehicle group, energy saving more than 10%.

4. the level of intelligence is higher, can be intelligent driving, intelligent operation and maintenance, intelligent services.

5. security is higher, with active security and passive security capabilities.

6. it is more comfortable with improved noise control and dynamics.


----------



## General Huo




----------



## saiho

by K9016机车号0228


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## foxmulder

Between the new trainsets, I definitely prefer CR300AF. Still my all time favorite is "CRH500" prototype.


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## Gusiluz

Prototype CRH500

Nose 1:


Nose 2:






Cab 1:


Cab 2:


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## foxmulder

With nose #1  Eagle (or toucan   ) beak!


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## Zaz965

my cute Gusiluz, are these ones homemade trains?


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## Gusiluz

^^ Yes, my friend.

In a very basic way, and according to my own criteria, I have divided the Chinese HST into five generations.

The first (*2007*) is made up of trains with foreign technology:
CRH1A B and E Regina and Zefiro 250 manufactured by BST Bombardier-Sifang (joint venture)
CRH2A B and E Shinkansen E2 manufactured by Kawasaki (first 3 trains) and CSR Sifang (next to the previous factory)
CRH3C Velaro CN manufactured by Siemens (3 first trains) and Tangshan CNR
CRH5A New Pendolino non tilting manufactured by Alstom (3 first trains) and CNR Changchun

The second (*2008*) is the evolution of these same trains, modified in China:
CRH1A-A and CRH1E NG are the Bombardier Zefiro 250 NG
CRH2C Is the CRH2A (or Shinkansen E2) evolved with more power (7,200/8,760 kW) for 300/350 kmh
CRH3A CJ2 (exCRH3G) based on CRH3C but very different externally
CRH5E CRH5G and the CRH3A CJ1 based on CRH5A but very different on the outside

The third generation (*2010*) consists of trains for lines with a maximum speed of 380 kmh, and they were homologated at that speed although they only ran at 350:
CRH380A and AL is an evolution of the CRH2C with the ownership of its technology in dispute between China and Kawasaki (CSR Sifang).
CRH380B BL and BG is an evolution of CRH3C with a Siemens share of only 18% (CNR Tangshan and CNR Changchun).
CRH380CL is an evolution of CRH380B manufactured by CNR Changchun but with Hitachi replacing Siemens.
CRH380D is the Chinese version of the Bombardier Zefiro 380 manufactured by BST Bombardier-Sifang.

The dispute between Kawasaki and China over the export of 9 MTR380A trains to Hong Kong (and 12 to Mexico, although the HSR project was eventually cancelled) ended with the withdrawal of complaints if China did not try to export more trains.

The Ministry of Railways and the Ministry of Science and Technology approved the overall plan of the high-speed test train in January after it was reviewed by a team organized by the two ministries.
On December 22, 2011 CSR Sifang presented the prototype CRH380AM-0204 (an evolution of the CRH380A) which was later known as the CIT500 (Comprehensive Inspection Train, Doctor Yellow), and finally *CRH500*.
It has two different noses to test different aerodynamic solutions, and it might seem that nose 1 is similar to the CR400BF (although it is now very trimmed) and nose 2 to the CR400AF (even more to the CR400AF-C that we commented recently).
The design of the new train is said to be inspired by ‘a Chinese sword’. Lots of new materials are used, such as carbon fiber, magnesium alloy and nanophase sound-proofing materials. It has 22800 kW in 6 motor cars with the highest power ever in a train (all of them have 16 cars, except the French one, which had only 5: 21560 in the CRH380AL, 20800 in the CR400AF-A, 19600 in the French record V150 and 17600 in the Shinkansen 500).


And so we arrive at the fifth generation: the current one (*2017*), which can be exported without problems according to CRRC (the public company formed by the merger of CNR and CSR):
CR400AF (formerly: CRH400A, and previously CRH350A) manufactured by CRRC Sifang, and a few (at least 20) by BST Bombardier-Sifang.
CR400BF (formerly: CRH400B, and formerly CRH350B) manufactured by CRRC Changchun and CRRC Tangshan.


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## Zaz965

I see no one is asking about the top speed the CRH500 reached. 
my cute Gusiluz is our supreme master about high speed rail


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## Gusiluz

Good question (But you're too nice to me: thank you very much!!!), because it doesn't appear on Wikipedia or in articles or news.

I retrieve the previous story. By the way: after publishing the message I see that I counted five generations of Chinese trains (I counted the titles in bold), as if the prototype was one of them; obviously this is only the beginning of the fourth generation, the current one.
The Ministry of Railways and the Ministry of Science and Technology approved the overall plan of the high-speed test train in January 2011 after it was reviewed by a team organized by the two ministries.

On December 22, 2011 CSR Sifang presented the prototype CRH380AM-0204 (an evolution of the CRH380A) which was later known as *CRH500* and from November 21, 2016 CIT500 (Comprehensive Inspection Train, Doctor Yellow).

It has two different noses to test different aerodynamic solutions, and it might seem that nose 1 (is said to be inspired by a Chinese sword) is similar to the CR400BF (although it is now very trimmed) and nose 2 (is said to rocket-like) to the CR400AF (even more to the CR400AF-C that we commented recently).
It has 24000 kW with CSR Zhuzhou Electric YQ-600 engines in 6 motor cars (It measures 153.5 m) with the highest power ever in a train (all of them have 16 cars, except the French one, which had only 5: 21560 in the CRH380AL, 20800 in the CR400AF-A, 19600 in the French record V150 and 17600 in the Shinkansen 500).

On January 16, 2014, it reached the speed of 605 kmh according to government media, and on November 21, it officially became an Comprehensive Inspection Train at a maximum speed of 385 kmh.

Aaron Saenz, article for Singularity Hub


> China's sword-train truly was a national production. CSR collaborated with both the Ministry of Science and Technology and the Ministry of Railways, the locomotive was produced after more than two years of research with 21 academics and engineers from the Institute of Mechanics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, China Academy of Railway Sciences, Southwest Jiaotong University, Beijing Jiaotong University, and Tongji University. It features materials new to China's railways including advanced carbon fibers, magnesium alloys, and nanometer sized sound-proofing insulating particles".


With its first numbering and before the transformation of his nose:


Nose 2:


Nose 1:









Next to his predecessor: the CRH380A (on the left):


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## Zaz965

Gusiluz, I believe it, but how a 24000 kW electric engine fits inside a boogie like this size?  








Bogie - Wikipedia


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## Gusiluz

Actually all the bogies of the train are motorized (in others only half, or some more, in others there's only one engine per bogie), there are 12 bogies in total, with 24 CSR Zhuzhou Electric YQ-600 engines in 6 motor cars.


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## Zaz965

my cute Gusiluz, please, don't be master only in high speed rail
you should be also master in freighter trains, I beg


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## Gusiluz

Freight trains?
What's that?


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## Gusiluz

In the previous message I wrote that,"_according to government media_" (including the source), the CRH500 had circulated at 605 kmh. That source is a page created for the tenth anniversary of HSR in China (2018).

But now, looking for a photo of the CIT500 (which, by the way, I can't find: it has to be yellow) I found this other source: Dagong Global Credit Rating Co, Ltd (which is a Chinese risk rating agency). According to my Chinese translator, it says that *the speed of 605 km/h was obtained in the laboratory, not on the track*.

Any ideas, or better: source?
Any better translations?


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## Zaz965

you said: it officially became an Comprehensive Inspection Train at a maximum speed of 385 kmh.
at least, if this train can reach this speed, I am already happy


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## Gusiluz

Yes, that's the official thing, but I can't find any pictures painted yellow or any information, apart from the echo of the official one.
If it's about speed, there's one faster: 400 kmh


This is the CIT400A (formerly the CRH380AJ-0202), with 28 CSR Zhuzhou Electric YQ-420 engines with just over half the total power of the CRH500 and longer and heavier, with 7 motor cars and one trailer car.


----------



## mfranjic

** * * * **
● In December 2013 *Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive Research Institute Co., Ltd.* successfully developed an electromotor that can be used in high-speed EMUs for a speeds of up to 500 km/h.

● In October 2014 the motor was successfully loaded and evaluated at *CRRC Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd*.

● In July 2015 *CRH380A-0206* HST equipped with a new generation of the permanent-magnet motors was put into testing.

● In October 2015 China's first "permanent magnet high-speed rail" equipped with the *TQ-600* permanent magnet synchronous traction motor developed by *CRRC Zhuzhou Motor Co., Ltd.* passed the test test of the first round with a maximum operating speed of 385 km/h .

..Over the 11 years, with a total of 10 million tests, 150GB of data and a cost of 100 million yuan, *Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive Research Institute Co., Ltd.*, a subsidiary of *CRRC*, has conquered the third-generation rail transit traction technology, namely the synchronous permanent-magnet motor traction system. Completely independent intellectual property rights, the motor power for high-speed EMUs with a speed of 500 kilometers per hour was of the power up to 690 kW.

..From December 2016 to June 2018 *CRRC Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. **CRH380AN-0206* train underwent a 300.000 km of the testing. The train was named *CRH380AN* because of the different propulsion system that includes the *TQ-600* (2.430 V; 143 A; 4.200 rpm) synchronous permanent-magnet traction motor developed by *CRRC Zhuzhou Motor Co., Ltd. *, compared with the *YQ-365* asynchronous traction motor of the existing *CRH380A* high-speed EMU. This motor represents a sub-project of the National 863 Program "Major Key Technology and Equipment Development Project of High-speed Railway". By adopting the world's new rare earth permanent magnet material, the world problem of permanent magnet demagnetization is effectively overcome. At the same time its cleverly designed bearing heat dissipation structure can effectively reduce the bearing temperature rise and ensure the safety and the reliability of the traction power operation.

……..* *The video of CRRC Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. CRH380AN-0206 departing from Jiangbei Station on the first day of passenger operation:* 
……..
..For example, *CRH380A* runs at 350 km/h multi-speed and requires about 7.000 kW of power. Now just the electromotors alone need to input 7.447 kW of electric power to deliver 7.000 kW of mechanical power (efficiency 94%), and the permanent-magnet motors need the input power of 7.143 kW (efficiency 98%).
Compared with the *YQ-365* asynchronous traction motor of the existing *CRH380A* high-speed EMU, the weight of the *TQ-600* permanent-magnet synchronous traction motor is reduced by 35%, the efficiency will be increased by more than 3%, and the energy saving is more than 10%.

* * * * *
..On 03. Dec 2010 standard *CSR Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. CRH380AL* EMU, reg. *CRH380A-6041L*, *16*-car train, train configuration: *14M2T*, axle arrangement: *2-2 + 14 x Bo-Bo + 2-2*, powered by 56 *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd YQ-365* (2.000 V; 130 A; 4.150 rpm, 465 kg) 3-phase, 4-pole asynchronous TMs, each rated at 385 kW, with the ΣTMp of 21.560 kW / 29.313 PS / 28.912 hp (the wheels' power is 20.440 kW) reached the maximum speed of *486,1 km/h* (302,0 mph).

..Unlike this *CSR Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. CRH380AL* train of the standard configuration, on 09. Jan 2011 a modified *12*-car *CRRC Tangshan* / *Changchun Railw. Veh. Co., Ltd. CRH380BL* EMU, reg. *CRH380B-6402L*, train configuration: *8M4T* (instead of standard *8M8T* configuration), axle arrangement: *Bo-Bo + 2-2 + 2 x Bo-Bo + 2-2 + 2 x Bo-Bo + 2-2 + 2 x Bo-Bo + 2-2 + Bo-Bo*, powered by 32 *CRRC Yongji Electric Co., Ltd. YJ105C* 3-phase, 4-pole asynchronous TMs, each rated at 586 kW, with the ΣTMp of 18.752 kW / 25.496 PS / 25.147 hp, reached the speed of *487,3 km/h* (302,8 mph)…

..It would be very interesting to see which speeds could be reached by some other *CRH380BL*'s *16*-car configurations, like *10M6T*, with the ΣTMp of 23.440 kW / 31.870 PS / 31.434 hp or even *12M4T* configuration, with the ΣTMp of 28.128 kW / 38.243 PS / 37.720 hp …

..Some other *CRH*'s EMUs of the very high power I would like to mention here are:
*● CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles Co., Ltd. CRH380CL*, *16*-car train, train configuration: *8M8T*, powered by 32 *CRRC Yongji Electric Co., Ltd. YJ105B* 3-phase, 4-pole asynchronous TMs, each rated at 615 kW, with the ΣTMp of 19.680 kW / 26.757 PS / 26.391 hp
● HST EMUs of the latest generation: *CSR Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. CR400AF-A*, *16*-car train, train configuration: *8M8T*, powerd by 32 *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd YQ-625 *(2.750 V; 155 A; 4.100 rpm, 735 kg) 3-phase 4-pole asynchronous TMs and *CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles Co., Ltd. CR400BF-A*, *16*-car train, train configuration: *8M8T*, powered by 32 *CRRC Yongji Electric Co., Ltd. YJ268A* (2.800 V; 158 A; 4.174 rpm) 3-phase, 4-pole asynchronous TMs. The ΣTMp of both trains is the same: 20.800 kW / 28.280 PS / 27.893 hp (the *wheel power*  is 20.280 kW)

..I feel sorry that between all these Chinese high speed trains, one model, I would like to see with a great curiosity, hasn't seen the daylight. Just for this purpose, let us call it *CRH380AJL*. I have imagined this high-speed EMU to be designed on the bases of the serial *CRH380AL* and *CRH380AJ* test train. The *CRH380AJL* train, produced by *CSR Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. * is a *16*-car train, train configuration: *16M0T*, axle arrangement: *16 x Bo-Bo*, powered by 64 *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd YQ-420* (2.300 V; 130 A; 4.150 rpm) 3-phase, 4-pole, asynchronous traction motors (TM), each rated at 420 kW, with the ΣTMp of 26.880 kW / 36.547 PS / 36.047 hp. I just wonder what speed would such a configured train be able to reach …

..This train with all powered axles wouldn't be exception since at least one HST I can remember of in this moment was powered by as many motors as it had axles and it was *Hitachi* / *Kawasaki Heavy Industries Rolling Stock Company* / *Kinki Sharyo* / *Nippon Sharyo* *500-series* Shinkansen (*W1* set), *16*-car train, train configuration: *16M0T*, axle arrangement: *16 x Bo-Bo*, powered by 64 *Hitachi WMT204* asynchronous TMs, each rated at 285 kW, with the train's total power of 18.240 kW / 24.800 PS / 24.460 hp. The sets *W2*-*W9* were powered by TMs rated at 275 kW so their ΣTMp was 17.600 kW / 23.929 PS / 23.602 hp.

..Between 2008 and 2010 eight, of the original nine, *500-series* Shinkansen sets have been shortened from 16 to 8 cars (*V* sets, *500-7000* series), train configuration: *8M0T*, for use on Sanyo Shinkansen Kodama services and since then *Hitachi* / *Kawasaki Heavy Industries Rolling Stock Company* / *Kinki Sharyo* / *Nippon Sharyo* *N700A* series Shinkansen, *16*-car train, train configuration: *14M2T*, axle arrangement: *2-2 + 14 x Bo-Bo + 2-2*, powered by 56 *Hitachi WMT207*/*WMT208*/*WMT209* squirrel cage induction TMs, each rated at 305 kW, with the ΣTMp of 17.080 kW / 23.222 PS / 22.905 hp is the most powerful Shinkansen train…

..Furthermore, the *CRH380AJL* train would not be the first one based on the *CRH380A* design with the powered end-car since the *CRH380AJ*, *8*-car test train, train configuration: *7M1T*, axle arrangement: *2-2 + 7 x Bo-Bo*, based on the *CRH400A* (initially *CIT400A*) train has one of its end cars powered. Otherwise, the three trains of that type (*CRH380AJ-0201*/*0202*/*0203*) are powered by 28 *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd YQ-420* (2.300 V; 130 A; 4.150 rpm, 495 kg) asynchronous traction motors, each rated at 420 kW, with the ΣTMp of 11.760 kW / 15.989 PS / 15.770 hp. This test train was designed for a maximum test speed of 450 km/h.

..I would also like to mention here one more and very important CRH's test train, with both end cars powered; *CRH380AM* (initially *CRH500* / *CIT500*). The train with the registration *CRH380AM-0204* is the latest high-speed comprehensive test train of the China Railway. It was deployed under the Ministry of Science and Technology and the Ministry of Railways of the People's Republic of China. The test train was developed by *CSR Qingdao Sifang Locomotive Co., Ltd.* and it is a *6*-car train, train configuration: *6M0T*, axle arrangement: *6 x Bo-Bo*. It was based on the *CRH380A* EMU HST. The head car and the tail car adopt two *different end cars' noses'* designs. The train is powered by 24 *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd YQ-600* 3-phase, asynchronous, traction motors, each rated at 950 kW, thus reaching the traction motors' total power of 22.800 kW / 30.999 PS / 30.575 hp. According to some sources the rated (nominal) power of the train was 14.400 kW / 19.579 PS / 19.310 hp (24 x 600 kW) and the test train's power 21.120 kW / 28.715 PS / 28.322 hp. The maximal power of the train was obtained by "overclocking" the motors through the increasing of the electric current's parameters (similar to the *ALSTOM V150* experimental train). That power is available for a short time period.
….
.…..* *CSR Qingdao Sifang Locomotive Co., Ltd. CRH380AM-0204* (click on the images for a larger view)
….….….....
..The train was designed to break the record of *574,8 km/h* (357,2 mph) achieved by the French test train *TGV V150*. Unlike those mentioned Chinese test HSTs, the French *ALSTOM V150* record train had somewhat different *propulsion system*. This train was comprising the axle arrangement: *Bo-Bo + 2-(Bo)(Bo)-2 + Bo-Bo*, where each of the two power heads (locomotives) of the existing *TGV POS 4402* train were powered by four *Alstom 6 FHA 3657* 3-phase, 6-pole, asynchronous traction motors, each rated at 1.160 kW @ 25 kV AC / 1.960 kW @ 31 kV AC, while each of two AGV bogies of the newly produced *TGV Duplex* cars had two *Alstom 12 LCS 3550 C* 12-poles, permanent-magnet synchronous traction motors, each rated at 760 kW @ 25 kV AC / 1.000 kW @ 31 kV AC, installed. The combined traction motors' power ouput, when achieving a speed record, was 19.680 kW / 26.757 PS / 26.391 hp @ 31 kV AC. I'm sure it was technically feasible to fit and the remaining two boogies by *Alstom 12 LCS 3550 C* permanent magnet synchronous traction motors, so the train with the axle arrangement: *Bo-Bo + Bo-(Bo)(Bo)-Bo + Bo-Bo* would have the combined traction motors' power ouput 23.680 kW / 32.196 PS / 31.755 hp @ 31 kV AC, but the main question is if that power would be usable and transferable to the rails …

..Currently the only CRH's EMU powered by synchronous permanent-magnet traction motors is the above mentioned *CRRC Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. CRH380AN* test train, reg. *CRH380AN-0206*, train configuration: *4M4T*, axle arrangement: *2-2 + 6 x Bo-Bo + 2-2*, powered by 16 *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd TQ-600* (2.730 V; 143 A; 4.200 rpm, 635 kg) permanent-magnet synchronous TMs, each rated at 690 kW and EMU's ΣTMp of 11.040 kW / 15.010 PS / 14.805 hp.

* * * * *
..The recent information indicates that the *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd* factory has developed a new model of the permanent-magnet motor for 400 km/h high-speed trains, *TQ-800*, therefore it is maybe realistic to expect some future *Fuxing* (*CR400AF*/*CR400BF*) subseries of EMUs to be equipped with a new type of drive, but certainly and those future series of HST EMUs …

..A couple of the links related to *CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd TQ-800* (2.808 V; 171 A; 4.800 rpm, 750 kg) permanent-magnet motor for 400 km/h high-speed trains in the form of the clickable images:
…..……
…..…..
* * * * *
..It is everything but easy to gather all the models of CRH's EMUs on one place because there are many of them, the data on some models is difficult to find, pretty much uncertainties about the development path of some models, different and unavailable data on the same models …

*CRH1A*, *CRH2A*, *CRH5A* early non-generic types have multiple sub-models, there are certain differences
*CRH2A-2460* is not a *CRH2G* test car
*CRH2A* technology should be derived from the of *CRH2C 2nd stage* and has little relationship with the original *CRH2A*
*CRH380A* model has multiple sub-models, which are quite different and cannot be connected with each other
*CRH3A* and *CRH5G* technology-enhanced only the head shape is similar, otherwise not much related
*CRH6A*, *CRH6F*, *CRH6A-A*, *CRH6F-A* belong to the customized production, the parameters in all aspects may be quite different
*CRH6A-A* is *CRH6F-A* with a speed of 200 km/h, which is not directly related to *CRH6A*
*CRH380A* and *CRH380AL* belong to the two branches, *CRH380AL* is not directly developed from the *CRH380A*
*CRH380AJ-0201* and *CRH380AJ-0202*/*0203* are quite different, and technically should be counted as two trains
*CR400* series integrates the technical accumulation of all previous models, there is no strict source model
*CR400BF-0306*, *CRH3X-0307* have no official names, the names are for the reference only
*CRH3X* integrates the technical characteristics of existing *CRH3* and *CRH5* and carries out technical innovation, there is no strict source model
*CRH6A*, *CRH6F*, *CRH6A-A*, *CRH6F-A* quantities are not necessarily accurate, may include undelivered or in the production units, the quantity is still increasing …
* * * * *
● My ideal HST EMU (read: the one no one would ever need or build) would be a combination of the standard and the hybrid train, with the propulsion system including the combination of the AC induction motors and the hybrid-system. *16*-car train in *8M8H* configuration, where *8M* cars would be in *Bo-Bo* configuration equipped with 32 *SIEMENS 1TB2019-0GC02* (2.750 V; 150 A; 4.150 rpm) four-pole, three-phase, AC induction traction motors, each rated at 615 kW / 836 PS / 825 hp and *8H* cars each eguipped with the two *MTU **Hybrid PowerPacks* composed of *MTU 12V 1600 R80L* four-stroke, turbocharged, diesel engine (eng. architecture: 90°V 12-cylinder; eng. displacement: 21.042 cm3 / 1.284,1 in3 * bore: 122,0 mm / 4,8 in, stroke: 150,0 mm / 5,9 in), CR: 17,5:1, rated at 700 kW / 952 PS / 939 hp at 1.900 rpm, peak torque 3.601 Nm / 2.656 lb-ft at 1.800 rpm, coupled to the permanent-magnet synchronous electric motor/generator rated at 400 kW / 544 PS / 536 hp and *MTU 151M4P* EnergyPack (Li-Ion cell battery module) with the capacity of 122,4 kWh.
● The trains' total power would be 8 x 4 x 615 kW + 8 x 2 x (700+400) kW = 19.680 kW (*M*otor) + 17.600 kW (*H*ybryd), able to operate both under OHL (AC 25 kV / 50Hz, AC 15 kV / 16,7Hz and DC 3 kV) and on those Non-Electrified Lines.

* * * * *
…..* *History and the development chart of the CRH EMUs* (click on the image for a larger view)

…..
…..* *CRH's EMUs database* (click on the image for a larger view)

...Kind regards

…….Mario


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## saiho

IDK here are some CRH 1's 

CRH380A-6053L


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## Gusiluz

^^ Thanks for the pictures!

I will try to clarify the differences between the *BST Bombardier-Sifang* trains for 220 / 250 km/h (All are first and second generation: Hexie Hao, Harmony).

In 2007 the first CRH1-A based on the *Bombardier Regina* (5M3T) went into service, the first 40 trains are only suitable for 220 kmh, the last 88 (and all the others) are for 250 kmh. Also the 20 CRH1-B trains (10M6T, 2009).


In 2009 they used the *Bombardier Zefiro 250* platform to make 15 CRH1-E trains (10M6T, sleeping places) and 5 CRH-1B trains (10M6R, 2013),


Finally, in 2016 they started using the *Bombardier Zefiro 250 New Generation* platform. So far they have manufactured 87 CRH1-A-A trains (5M3T) and 5 CRH1-E NG trains (10M6T, sleeping places).
CRH1-E NG:


Although initially their numbering was only CRH1-A:

The latter is a CRH1-A-A differs (apart from the size, of course) in these side windows next to the cabin.


260 trains in total: 148 trains based on Regina, 20 based on Zefiro 250 and 92 Zefiro 250 NG.


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## foxmulder

Gusiluz said:


> In the previous message I wrote that,"_according to government media_" (including the source), the CRH500 had circulated at 605 kmh. That source is a page created for the tenth anniversary of HSR in China (2018).
> 
> But now, looking for a photo of the CIT500 (which, by the way, I can't find: it has to be yellow) I found this other source: Dagong Global Credit Rating Co, Ltd (which is a Chinese risk rating agency). According to my Chinese translator, it says that *the speed of 605 km/h was obtained in the laboratory, not on the track*.
> 
> Any ideas, or better: source?
> Any better translations?


605km/h was reached on a test bench not on a real high speed railroad. That would have been ultimate rail speed record


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## Gusiluz

Within the *Fuxing Hao* (Rejuvenation) CR400AF (4M4T) trains there are two versions in addition to the normal one (although within the CR400AF denomination): the 5 Dual Control trains, which are equipped with the LJK train operation monitoring equipment (from CRRC Zhuzhou Institute) to operate at normal speed without the need for CTCS-2 (Chinese Train Control System); and the 8 trains (Parcel) that have car 2 converted into a freight depot, even in cold chain, and which operate on the entire network as required, without being destined for any particular location.

Source


Source

Besides, there is the CR400AF-C prototype with GoA 2 ATO for the Beijing W-Xiong'an line, with 2 + 2 seats in second class and more luggage space for the Daxing International Airport.

Within the CR400BF (4M4T) platform there are, in addition to the normal ones, 30 CR400BF-G trains for adverse weather (cold), and 8 CR400BF-C trains with GoA 2 ATO for the Beijing North-Zhangjiakou (Kalgan)-Chongli line for the Olympic Winter Games, with space for sports equipment.

I put the serial numbers in order:

*CR400AF*
2015 0207 CRRC Qingdao Sifang Locomotive prototype Flying Dragon (Prototypes 2001/2005?)
2016 0208 CRRC Qingdao Sifang Locomotive prototype Blue Dolphin
2020 0209 CRRC Qingdao Sifang Locomotive prototype CR400AF-C with GoA 2 ATO
2018 1001/1005 (05) CR400AF-A (8M8T, 73 in total) (1XXX Qingdao Sifang Bombardier)
201X 1006/1025 (20) CR400AF (149 total) (was 1001)
201X 1026/1032 (07) CR400AF-A
2017 2001/2017 (17) CR400AF (2XXX CRRC Qingdao Sifang Locomotive)
201X 2018/2020 (03) CR400AF Parcel (8 in total)
201X 2021/2028 (08) CR400AF
201X 2029/2029 (01) CR400AF Parcel
2018 2030/2064 (35) CR400AF (Was 2031 the 0207?)
201X 2065/2084 (20) CR400AF-A
201X 2085/2094 (10) CR400AF
201X 2095/2115 (21) CR400AF-A
2019 2116/2123 (08) CR400AF-B (8M9T, 13 in total)
2019 2124/2182 (59) CR400AF
2019 2183/2187 (05) CR400AF Dual control (5 in total) with LKJ without CTCS-2
2020 2188/2205 (18) CR400AF-A
2020 2206/2210 (05) CR400AF-B
2020 2211/2212 (02) CR400AF-A
2019 2368/2369 (02) CR400AF Parcel (2368>2628)
2019 2808/2808 (01) CR400AF Parcel
2019 2818/2818 (01) CR400AF Parcel
CR400AF-D Variable gauge (to be confirmed)

*CR400BF*
2015 0503 Prototype CRRC Changchun Golden Phoenix (Prototypes 5001/5005?)
2016 0507 Prototype CRRC Changchun (CRH350-C and CR400CF)
2017 0305 Prototype CRRC Tangshan
2017 3001/3023 (23) CR400BF (140 in total) (3XXX CRRC Tangshan)
2018 3024/3033 (10) CR400BF-A (8M8T, 62 in total)
2018 3034/3049 (16) CR400BF
2018 3050/3058 (09) CR400BF-A
2018 3059/3091 (33) CR400BF
201X 3092/3096 (05) CR400BF-A
201X 5001/5047 (47) CR400BF (5XXX CRRC Changchun)
201X 5048/5067 (20) CR400BF-A
201X 5068/5081 (14) CR400BF
201X 5082/5096 (15) CR400BF-A
2019 5097/5105 (09) CR400BF-B (8M9T, 14 in total)
2019 5106/5112 (07) CR400BF
2019 5113/5142 (30) CR400BF-G (30 in total) (adverse weather)
2019 5143/5150 (08) CR400BF-C (8 in total) with GoA 2 ATO
2019 5151/5155 (05) CR400BF-B
2019 5156/5158 (03) CR400BF-A
CR400BF-D Variable gauge (to be confirmed)
CR400BF-J Sand (to be confirmed)


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## saiho

CRH 380D by CRH380A-6053L


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## zergcerebrates

lawdefender said:


> 世界首列！时速350公里货运动车组来了
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.guancha.cn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 891499
> 
> 
> View attachment 891500


So what is the point of having fake windows painted on the freight train?


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## zergcerebrates

maginn said:


> That D311 sleeper train runs from Shanghai railway station to Lanzhou West now.


So what sleeper train run between Shanghai and Beijing now?


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## cheehg

zergcerebrates said:


> So what sleeper train run between Shanghai and Beijing now?


those are replaced by CR200, because they run on coventional line so CR200 is enough. Shanghai to Lanzhou one runs on HS line from Xuzhou to Lanzhou.


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## saiho

橘公司理发店 
CR400BF-C


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## 33Hz

saiho said:


> CR400AF-S By by未知


I found some additional info here including a seat layout. It seems like the middle two cars are single decker only, I guess that is where technical equipment and transformers are held. It also has a brother, the CR400BF-S. Total seats 1619 (I think) - I actually count 1587 in the diagram. EDIT: Found them, some of the coaches have 3 seats at the end by the vestibule.






如何评价双层动车组CR400AF-S？ - 知乎


CR400AF-S双层动车组全列16节编组，列车定员为1584人，比16节CR400AF-A/BF-A增加了34%，比17节CR400AF-B/…




www.zhihu.com


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## saiho

CJ5E-A regional train by 8K-140_SXC


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## zergcerebrates

Love how China is moving away from the blue line paint scheme


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## saiho

Series500


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## luhai

Was browsing the web for high speed rail videos the other and found these excellent overview of Chinese HSR trainset. Probably the most comprehensive review I have found, particularly since it gives the number trains ordered in each variant. All in Chinese though.

Overview of all 200 km/h CRH (Hexie) trainsets





Overview of all 300 km/h CRH (Hexie) trainsets





Overview of CR400 trainsets





Overview of CR300 





Overview of CR200





Overview of CRH-6
【中国高铁】“和谐号”的“独苗”——CRH6型城际动车组

Also another uploader from bilibili that gives extremely detailed over of CRH series. So far only CRH-1 and CRH-2, but eventually he'll cover all of them.

CRH-1 (overview of Chinese rail bureaus in the beginning)


https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1rf4y147s9



CRH-2


https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1p5411A7ov


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## lawdefender

一图看懂：复兴号家族13款车型最全图鉴 - IT 与交通 - 铁路 - cnBeta.COM


2017年6月25日，中国标准动车组被正式命名为“复兴号”。最早到来的是复兴号CR400系列，此后又推出了CR200、CR300系列，覆盖了时速160公里至350公里。复兴号系列动车组今年将覆盖我国大陆所有省区市，该家族里都有哪些成员？命名的规律是什么？一起来看看中国铁路官方带来的谱系图。




www.cnbeta.com


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## lawdefender




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## lawdefender

The "Fuxing" Beijing-Zhangjiakou high-speed rail intelligent EMU (CR400BF-C) developed by CRRC Changchun at a speed of 350 kilometers per hour has been put into use on the Jingzhang line in 2019.


The R&D team responsible for the electrical system design of the "Fuxing" Beijing-Zhangjiakou high-speed rail intelligent EMU is a young team with a female designer ratio of 60%. the current Chinese intelligent high-speed rail is a type 1.0 intelligent EMU. There are three main considerations in the intelligent design of high-speed rail.

The first is smart driving. That is, in the process of vehicle driving, using technologies such as automatic driving, navigation and positioning, and environmental perception to ensure safer, automatic, punctual, and energy-saving operation of the vehicle, and to improve the emergency response capability of the vehicle. Take the Beijing-Zhangjiakou line developed by them as an example. The safety monitoring system on the car can accurately detect the safety of vehicle components; the earthquake early warning system can provide emergency response to the car when an earthquake occurs nearby; the emergency traction system uses power battery technology. It is possible to let the train run to the nearest station under its own power when the railway catenary fails.

Then there are smart services. They hope to enable passengers to experience a not easily noticeable but comfortable improvement from the sensory, visual, and ride comfort experience when riding in the car. To this end, the team used intelligent perception technology and inverter air conditioners to adjust the light color, window color, temperature, pressure wave, and noise, involving all aspects of the senses. Take Badaling Station as an example. The station is 102 meters deep and has a pressure difference of 11,000 Pa. When a train passes by at high speed, the human ear will feel similar to that of an airplane taking off. By optimizing the pressure adjustment, the air-conditioning design team can make the pressure in the car have a slow change during the transit, making the human ear feel less obvious.

In addition, they will give passengers a convenient guide on the information push. With the help of intelligent interactive terminals, it is convenient for passengers to browse the necessary train information while watching movies and entertainment on the screen or mobile phone screen. In addition, there are technologies such as WIFI business expansion and 5G live broadcast. In short, the application of these technologies can effectively improve the interconnection capabilities of people and vehicles, and improve service efficiency and crew management quality.

The final intelligent operation and maintenance is an area that passengers can't see. This is a data interaction and sharing system composed of three parts: train, ground, and train-to-ground data transmission. It will capture the R&D, experiment, operation and maintenance data of the GM unit and the parts supplier, and then realize the evaluation of the key components of the vehicle, diagnose the component status, realize the precise location of the fault, and issue the necessary warnings, and carry out big data on the prediction results. Accumulation.






专访中车长客专家张国芹：各国高铁智能化发展很快，我们要做技术引领者







www.guancha.cn





Zhang Guoqin, a CRRC expert with 15 years of research and development experience, and the person in charge of the electric system of the "Fuxing" Beijing-Zhangjiakou high-speed rail intelligent EMU










The "Fuxing" Beijing-Zhangjiakou high-speed rail intelligent EMU (CR400BF-C) developed by CRRC Changchun at a speed of 350 kilometers per hour has been put into use on the Jingzhang line in 2019.


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## lawdefender

National Railway Group said that before July 1 this year, a batch of Fuxing intelligent EMUs will be put on Beijing-Shanghai, Beijing-Harbin, Beijing-Guangzhou, Chengdu-Chongqing and other high-speed railways before July 1 this year, so that more passengers can enjoy a higher-quality travel life. The Fuxing Intelligent EMU has been put into operation on the Beijing-Zhangjiakou High-speed Railway.






更聪明更安静！复兴号智能动车组今年在京沪高铁投运


更聪明更安静！复兴号智能动车组今年在京沪高铁投运



finance.sina.com.cn






CR400BF-C


















business class









first class









second class









economic class 









Bar counter









toilet


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## lawdefender

400 kilometers per hour! CR450 Fuxing EMU started development this year

Science and Technology Daily reporter Jiao Yang

The Fuxing series EMU family will add 400 kilometers per hour speed class members. A reporter from Science and Technology Daily learned from China National Railway Group Co., Ltd. ("China Railway Group") on January 4 that China Railway Group will begin to organize the implementation of the "CR450 Science and Technology Innovation Project" under the Fuxing number this year to make research and development safer, more environmentally friendly, and more energy-efficient. , Smarter new products of Fuxing, prepare for future operation of 5G environment.

The current three speed grades of the Fuxing train are CR400/300/200. The numbers indicate the maximum speed. The continuous speeds correspond to 350, 250 and 160 respectively. They are suitable for high-speed railways (high-speed railways), rapid railways (fast railways), and inter-city railways (city railways). iron). CRRC experts said that according to the current technical number of the Fuxing EMU, CR450 has a operation speed of 400 kilometers per hour.

The development of the Fuxing EMU series has been continuing.

In July 2016, two Chinese standard EMUs successfully carried out a comprehensive test of 420 km/h rendezvous and reconnection on the Zhengzou-Xuzhou high-speed railway.

In June 2017, China's standard EMU was named "Fuxing" and went online on the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed rail.

In September 2017, the Fuxing EMU achieved commercial operation at a speed of 350 kilometers per hour on the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed rail, setting a new benchmark for the world's high-speed rail construction and operation.

In December 2019, the Fuxing Intelligent EMU was put into operation on the Beijing-Zhangjiakou High-speed Railway, achieving automatic driving at a speed of 350 kilometers per hour for the first time in the world.

On December 23, 2020, the newly opened Yinxi Line, the CR300BF EMU was put into operation for the first time. This is a new model with a maximum operating speed of 250 kilometers per hour and full WiFi coverage.







时速400公里！CR450型复兴号动车组今年启动研制_腾讯新闻


时速400公里！CR450型复兴号动车组今年启动研制




new.qq.com


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## saiho

CR400AF - BZ, a new 17 car version of the CR400AF-B testing on the Jinghu HSR. The final paint job is still a secret.

by 魔光老徐


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## lawdefender

Fuxing Intelligent EMU CR400AF-Z, CR400BF-Z starting operation from 2021-6-25

The body of the Fuxing Intelligent EMU is equipped with thousands of sensors, and the safety monitoring system monitors the train status in real time to ensure the self-diagnosis of faults during train operation and the guidance of safe self-decision-making. The energy of the duty-riding high-speed rail driver is more focused on emergency response, which greatly reduces labor intensity. The system can also collect and calculate train operation data to improve the energy-saving indicators and operating comfort of the train.

The Fuxing Intelligent EMU adopts a new head-shaped design. The driver boarding gate is added to the leader car to facilitate the driver's getting on and off the car, avoiding the driver's boarding and boarding cab in the business car from interfering with passengers' rest; an additional vending machine in the dining car can be used for passengers Provide self-service purchase of fruits, drinks, snacks, etc.; arrange 8 marshalling trains in carriage 4 and 17 marshalling trains in carriage 8 specially set up barrier-free compartments, equipped with wider passage doors, barrier-free toilets, wheelchair storage areas, etc. , Braille signs are added to service facilities to better serve disabled passengers; 17 marshalling trains use 5G-based train WIFI. With the coverage of 5G network signals along the line, it will provide passengers with better voice calls and mobility Internet service.

In addition, compared with ordinary EMUs, the Fuxing Intelligent EMU adopts 9 intelligent operation and maintenance and monitoring systems such as Ethernet control and on-board safety monitoring, which further enhances the level of intelligence in train operation and safety monitoring; through trains The linkage between the network and the carriage video. When alarms such as fireworks, overcrowding, emergency buttons triggered by passengers, abnormal doors, etc. occur, the carriage video linkage alarm can be used to quickly confirm and deal with the fault. This not only reduces the risk of further expansion of the fault, but also improves the train The efficiency of troubleshooting on the way.

　　 The Fuxing Intelligent EMU was put into operation on June 25th. It is mainly responsible for the high-speed and short-travel high-speed trains between Beijing and Harbin, Jilin, Shenyang, Shanghai, Hangzhou, Shijiazhuang, Guangzhou, Xi'an, and Chengdu to Chongqing.






复兴号智能动车组6月25日起扩大运行范围 覆盖18省市 _ 东方财富网


扩大至京沪、京广、京哈、徐兰及成渝高铁等线。6月22日，中国国家铁路集团机辆部副主任吴国栋在北京透露，CR400AF和CR400BF两种型号的复兴号智能动车组今年将扩大开行范围，随着6月25日全国铁路第三季度列车运行图的实施，扩大至京沪、京广、京哈、徐兰及成渝高铁等线路。




finance.eastmoney.com


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## lawdefender

EMU CR400BF-Z in Wuhan Station
































The ride feeling of the Fuxing Intelligent EMU is also more comfortable. In addition to the optimization of the compartment seats, the compartment service facilities have also been further optimized. For example, a 29-inch wide-screen TV is installed on the top of the carriage, which can display train operation status and entertainment program information on separate screens; smart lighting is installed in the bathroom, and when someone enters, the brightness of the light can be automatically adjusted, and the voice prompt "No smoking" is added; 2. A USB charging port has been added to the seat backs to facilitate passengers to use mobile phones and charging; the first-class seats have added adjustable headrests, electric legrests, etc.; the business seats are equipped with intelligent interactive terminals that support the mobile phone screen projection function, and use The staggered arrangement of seats and ingenious structural design improve the privacy, convenience and comfort of passengers. An additional vending machine is added to the dining car, which can provide passengers with self-service purchase of fruits, drinks, snacks and other services.



中新网湖北 湖北新闻网 武汉地区首次迎来复兴号智能化动车组


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## saiho

一方沃土0


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## saiho

客车快两八次


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## lawdefender

The latest Fuxing train family pedigree by timeline 















新版复兴号证件照来了！猜猜哪款车型最快最长_人民号







rmh.pdnews.cn


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## Zaz965

just for curiosity: did they ban squat toilet in the chinese trains?  













Toilet & Washroom on China High Speed Train | Toilet on China Train


What do you expect toilets on a China high speed train? Toilets on China bullet train are clean and odor-free with squat toilet, western-style toilet, barrier-free washroom. Check toilet sign, facilities, how to use, tips to know everything about toilets.




www.chinadiscovery.com


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## cheehg

Zaz965 said:


> just for curiosity: did they ban squat toilet in the chinese trains?
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> Toilet & Washroom on China High Speed Train | Toilet on China Train
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> What do you expect toilets on a China high speed train? Toilets on China bullet train are clean and odor-free with squat toilet, western-style toilet, barrier-free washroom. Check toilet sign, facilities, how to use, tips to know everything about toilets.
> 
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> www.chinadiscovery.com


They have both styles in one train. Some people perfer squat one because they don`t want to sit on public toilets.


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## Zaz965

cheehg said:


> They have both styles in one train. Some people perfer squat one because they don`t want to sit on public toilets.


thanks for the information


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## cheehg

Zaz965 said:


> thanks for the information


If you see one is squat then you just go to the next car.


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## lawdefender

According to the WeChat public account "China Railway", at 8:50 on February 16, a CRH380AM-0204 comprehensive inspection train left Zhengzhou East Station to start the day's step-by-step speed-up test. This month, as the Puzheng section of the Jizheng high-speed railway enters the stage of joint debugging and joint testing, the silver-gray EMUs, which are called "Bronze Swords" by netizens, continue to set new records. On February 13, it ran out of the highest speed of the test with a speed of 385 kilometers per hour to achieve the goal of joint debugging and joint testing.






时速385公里！“青铜剑”在新建高铁跑出最高速







www.guancha.cn


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## General Huo

CR200J, don't know whether it can run on HSR.


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