# From slums to world-class



## sturmgeist (Feb 4, 2009)

heirloom said:


> that's a terrible thing to say. just give africa, or any other place for that matter, good governance (and education) and it will bloom.


No it is not a terrible thing to say, it is honest. There are in fact differences between races, we all evolved geographically separate for 1000s of generations, it is silly to deny differences mentally and physically between different races. Africans happened to evolve in an environment which was very hospitable, shelter, food and survival were quite easy unlike where Chinese, or Caucasians evolved for example. As a result of the lack of brainpower necessary for Africans to survive during their evolution, the are not blessed as far as intelligence(that's not to say every African is unintelligent), their brains are actually about 6 cubic cm smaller than Chinese.
This does not make them inferior so don't get me wrong, it is just a reality we must acknowledge and accept, what works for Chinese will not work for Africans and vice versa. That was my point.


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## Huhu (Jun 5, 2004)

^^ About time he got banned.


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## World 2 World (Nov 3, 2006)

*KUALA LUMPUR 1880s*



















*Present*









by m.zakir









BY razuryza









by fr4g*st3r


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

Drastic changes in South East Asia.


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## spongeg (May 1, 2006)

bobbycuzin said:


> ^^ the article is about the time of independence in 1965 to now, so no...the "british empire" was not involved in the transformation.


yes but the british laid the foundation, government, infastructure, ideas etc


that had to have helped


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

sturmgeist said:


> No it is not a terrible thing to say, it is honest. There are in fact differences between races, we all evolved geographically separate for 1000s of generations, it is silly to deny differences mentally and physically between different races. Africans happened to evolve in an environment which was very hospitable, shelter, food and survival were quite easy unlike where Chinese, or Caucasians evolved for example. As a result of the lack of brainpower necessary for Africans to survive during their evolution, the are not blessed as far as intelligence(that's not to say every African is unintelligent), their brains are actually about 6 cubic cm smaller than Chinese.
> This does not make them inferior so don't get me wrong, it is just a reality we must acknowledge and accept, what works for Chinese will not work for Africans and vice versa. That was my point.


Mods, kudos for keeping the trolls out. What a bunch of BS...can't believe that there actually people out there that actually believe in this kind of crap.


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## jlshyang (May 22, 2005)

spongeg said:


> yes but the british laid the foundation, government, infastructure, ideas etc
> 
> 
> that had to have helped


How about other former British colonies like Ghana, Ceylon (Sri Lanka) etc.?

I suggest you get Lee Kuan Yew's Memoir: 'From Third World to First'. The British Empire didn't help much other than passing down their ideas and system. I give all credit of Singapore's transformation to the leadership of Lee Kuan Yew.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

You can't blindly isolate aspects and try to conclude on who should get credit for development. Everything's inter-related. We live in a complex world.

I'm very curious to see what Mumbai would look like in a few decades. There is a lot of wealth apparently locked away in the city, yet there are a lot of slums to clear.


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## dösanhoro (Jun 24, 2006)

ok 130 years is not just a few decades no matter how impressive it looks or how small it is in the big picture of things .


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

hkskyline said:


> I think slums are alive and well in the West. East End London isn't particularly anything like First World. I'd argue the same for parts of the Bronx and the south part of Chicago.


lol, I have friends living in the East End of London and their area isn't particularly glamorous but it's not what i'd call a slum by a long way.

When I think of a slum I think of makeshift housing built without permission, lack of proper sewage systems and roads, people illegally tapping into electricity supplies which only give power for a few hours a day, no official public educational and medical services etc etc.

East End London has none of those features of a slum.


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## Waldenstrom (Dec 13, 2006)

Amazing transformation of Kulala Lumpur! :applause:


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

sturmgeist said:


> No it is not a terrible thing to say, it is honest. There are in fact differences between races, we all evolved geographically separate for 1000s of generations, it is silly to deny differences mentally and physically between different races. Africans happened to evolve in an environment which was very hospitable, shelter, food and survival were quite easy unlike where Chinese, or Caucasians evolved for example. As a result of the lack of brainpower necessary for Africans to survive during their evolution, the are not blessed as far as intelligence(that's not to say every African is unintelligent), their brains are actually about 6 cubic cm smaller than Chinese.
> This does not make them inferior so don't get me wrong, it is just a reality we must acknowledge and accept, what works for Chinese will not work for Africans and vice versa. That was my point.



Utter bollox. Africa has suffered historically from massive recent climate change (eg the emergence and continuing growth of the Sahara desert, year on year droughts), has by dint of ecosystem, been the breeding ground for civilisation's major diseases, alongside the fact its the worlds most resource rich and diverse continent (read colonialism, post colonial tribalism and endless wars between thousands of ethnic groups, foreign powers, and now multinational companies over the riches). Colonially created countries like Chad (population 10 million) speak 120 languages, Nigeria (population 130 million) 521 languages. DPR Congo saw 10 million die under brutal colonialism and introduced diseases, its population halving within 20 years, and is currently now is seeing in Africas 'World War', with 5.4 million dead since 1998. Hundreds of billions have been stolen from its massive mineral stock.

Like someone mentioned before give Africans the luxury of good governance and education and they like anyone else in the world, will turn out into success stories. There is not some kind of inherent lack of intelligence that has put Africa into the historical doldrums for so long - you only need to study the history of the continent to see the African empires that existed, and why they fell (as in South America, loss of agriculture due to climate change, colonialism and inter ethnic war) and let me remind you, that Black Africans conquered the Egyptian empire, and instated their own line of pharaohs and ruling classes under the Nubian Empire.

On another note, in my home city (London), which has just seen the biggest wave of immigration in its history, the new Black Africans outperform all other races at school and education (yes, including E Asians and Europeans). They are most likely to get go on to university or get a high paying job. 

This is in contrast to more established Black communities (such as the Caribbean communities), that have long suffered institutionalised racism in society, and reaped the disabilities. (If you compare Caribbean children's performance, they outperform other children until they start attending school, also evidence of the social stigma, Black Caribbean women earn more than their White counterparts, whilst Black Caribbean men earn far lower). 

As mentioned earlier, this does not apply to the Black African immigrants on their stellar rise, as they are a far newer community, with far less ingrained prejudice to overcome in their societies.


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

Societies, like groups, like everything human really have to be understand by their relation to each other.

And this holds true for economic achievements as well.

Places like Singapore and Hong Kong got were they are because of very specific fiscal policies, which attracted lots of capital from outside their borders. The problem is that this model cannot be applied to all, if everybody has very low taxes, than nobody has low taxes anymore and the only thing left is a lack of funds everywhere.

In other words, Singapore and Hong Kong only "worked" because they are economical parasites. You thus can't use their model as a whole in a praise against the reconstruction of slums.
Of course some specific aspects can be interesting to study.


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## giuliano1987 (Apr 3, 2009)

Excelente post y Excelente pagina los felicito...


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## kamloon (Aug 8, 2004)

eklips said:


> Societies, like groups, like everything human really have to be understand by their relation to each other.
> 
> And this holds true for economic achievements as well.
> 
> ...


Low tax rate didnt help much in the early stage of HK's development, HK's miracle was due to the hard working labour back to the 1960s, thanks to the Confucian Idea, just like japan, S.Korea, Taiwan and Singapore, these places' people tend to stress on their children's academic result and put a lot of resources on education

and you can see those students with the best academic result in U.S. universities are mostly from these places


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## arzaranh (Apr 23, 2004)

sturmgeist said:


> No it is not a terrible thing to say, it is honest. There are in fact differences between races, we all evolved geographically separate for 1000s of generations, it is silly to deny differences mentally and physically between different races. Africans happened to evolve in an environment which was very hospitable, shelter, food and survival were quite easy unlike where Chinese, or Caucasians evolved for example. As a result of the lack of brainpower necessary for Africans to survive during their evolution, the are not blessed as far as intelligence(that's not to say every African is unintelligent), their brains are actually about 6 cubic cm smaller than Chinese.
> This does not make them inferior so don't get me wrong, it is just a reality we must acknowledge and accept, what works for Chinese will not work for Africans and vice versa. That was my point.


........wow


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## Ribarca (Jan 28, 2005)

kamloon said:


> Low tax rate didnt help much in the early stage of HK's development, HK's miracle was due to the hard working labour back to the 1960s, thanks to the Confucian Idea, just like japan, S.Korea, Taiwan and Singapore, these places' people tend to stress on their children's academic result and put a lot of resources on education
> 
> and you can see those students with the best academic result in U.S. universities are mostly from these places


Hong Kong is what it is now due to communism to a large extent. The influx of people made for an immensely large and cheap labor force, which brought us "made in Hong Kong" products exported to all parts of the world.

Hong Kong took over the role from Shanghai as an important port as well making it the gateway to Asia.

Without the huge influx of people from mainland China Hong Kong would have remained a relatively unimportant place.


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## kamloon (Aug 8, 2004)

Ribarca said:


> Hong Kong is what it is now due to communism to a large extent. The influx of people made for an immensely large and cheap labor force, which brought us "made in Hong Kong" products exported to all parts of the world.
> 
> Hong Kong took over the role from Shanghai as an important port as well making it the gateway to Asia.
> 
> Without the huge influx of people from mainland China Hong Kong would have remained a relatively unimportant place.


large cheap labour force is not the only factor for the beginning stage of development, while you can see cheap labour is everywhere in africa and many other devloping countries, but these places just cant develop as fast as those Confucian countries did


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## SungIEman (Jul 25, 2004)

Let me tell you why places with Confucius value developed so fast. By working 12 hrs a day with no overtime pay, sometimes including saturday like I am. That's also why we're some of the unhappiest, over-worked people in the world with the highest suicide rate in the world.

It's all relative, what's the use of all the riches when no one can enjoy them.


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

the spliff fairy said:


> Utter bollox. Africa has suffered historically from massive recent climate change (eg the emergence and continuing growth of the Sahara desert, year on year droughts), has by dint of ecosystem, been the breeding ground for civilisation's major diseases, alongside the fact its the worlds most resource rich and diverse continent (read colonialism, post colonial tribalism and endless wars between thousands of ethnic groups, foreign powers, and now multinational companies over the riches). Colonially created countries like Chad (population 10 million) speak 120 languages, Nigeria (population 130 million) 521 languages. DPR Congo saw 10 million die under brutal colonialism and introduced diseases, its population halving within 20 years, and is currently now is seeing in Africas 'World War', with 5.4 million dead since 1998. Hundreds of billions have been stolen from its massive mineral stock.
> 
> Like someone mentioned before give Africans the luxury of good governance and education and they like anyone else in the world, will turn out into success stories. There is not some kind of inherent lack of intelligence that has put Africa into the historical doldrums for so long - you only need to study the history of the continent to see the African empires that existed, and why they fell (as in South America, loss of agriculture due to climate change, colonialism and inter ethnic war) and let me remind you, that Black Africans conquered the Egyptian empire, and instated their own line of pharaohs and ruling classes under the Nubian Empire.
> 
> ...


Wow Spliff Fairy - great post. You seem like a very well educated young man.

I'd love to read more about the position of new migrants compared to old migrants in the UK if you know any good websites regarding the matter. 

I think too much importance in being placed on religion in regards to HK's rise to the top of the economic food chain. Being able to take vast amounts of foreign currency in and out of the city helps. There aren't too many other countries that allow that. HK was also a very strategic part of the world for the British Empire - the way of life they imposed on the city-state certainly helped in developing it. It wouldn't have been in Britain's interest to see the city be nothing more than a semi-rural island, as it was when they first arrived. The position of HK was key for trade, defence, geo-political power etc. - Britain put the ground work in place, and then native population took over and made something magnificent out of it. 

Being an 'economic gateway' to China helps as well. Deals can be done with China via proxy through HK - Western style laws protecting Western investors at Chinese bargain prices. It would be hard for HK to not be an economic success story.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2009)

eklips said:


> In other words, *Singapore and Hong Kong only "worked" because they are economical parasites*. You thus can't use their model as a whole in a praise against the reconstruction of slums.
> Of course some specific aspects can be interesting to study.


Excuse me, parasites in what way again? In not devastating our own industry and citizens by high taxes? 



eklips said:


> Places like Singapore and Hong Kong got were they are because of very specific fiscal policies, which attracted lots of capital from outside their borders. The problem is that this model cannot be applied to all, if everybody has very low taxes, than nobody has low taxes anymore and the only thing left is a lack of funds everywhere.


I don't understand what you mean by "nobody has low taxes anymore". If other countries, mainly in W. Europe, overhaul their welfare systems, which is the actual economical parasite, then we can all enjoy our hard-earned money staying with us with budget not being strained to and over the limits. 

Right now, majority of Europeans can be happy with the current situation, but the slaving minority, those under highest taxes, choose to leave and relocate to "parasites" like Singapore or HK, or recently the Gulf and other Asian countries.

In Singapore, there's a compulsory contribution to the welfare system, but your contribution level stays under YOUR name in the system. So, the more you pay the more services you get, starting from emergency surgeries up to less and less urgent treatment. Majority of procedures and even many medications are subsidized by the state, but nothing's for free, so people need to shed at least some of their money on the insurance. This assures that they take treatment seriously and won't use the system without a need. And with all the savings, really needy people can get the treatment they require.

And it all _works_ - even poorer, old folks get their regular medical checks and even public hospitals are, according to fellow Frenchmen, way better than in France. I don't see any reason, cept for politics, that all the countries can't work this out this way.

Another money-consuming problem is bureaucracy. Plenty other nations try to put as many office staff in their govt administrations as its possible, when a half of them could do the job. And the way Euro Parliament works is the biggest squander of public money possible. Singapore's and Hong Kong's governments are acclaimed for their minimalism and efficiency. But well, if a European government decided to do so, it would immediately grow unpopular as majority of the bureaucrats would be unable to find employment elsewhere.

As you see, a sovereign country can function without high taxes. 

So, its unjustified to call countries more efficient and better organized than yours a "parasite". After all, we didn't suck a single pound from French or Peruvian _budget_, we created a friendlier _environment_ for multinational companies first and then build our homegrown industry.


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## George W. Bush (Mar 18, 2005)

Simon91 said:


> Another money-consuming problem is bureaucracy. Plenty other nations try to put as many office staff in their govt administrations as its possible, when a half of them could do the job. And the way Euro Parliament works is the biggest squander of public money possible. Singapore's and Hong Kong's governments are acclaimed for their minimalism and efficiency. But well, if a European government decided to do so, it would immediately grow unpopular as majority of the bureaucrats would be unable to find employment elsewhere.
> 
> As you see, a sovereign country can function without high taxes.


Fortunately there is a country called Switzerland to remind us that even in Europe it is possible to have both a high quality public service and a reasonable taxation level. Sadly the rare exception, not the rule.


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## sylodon (Sep 5, 2004)

kamloon said:


> Besides you still need to ask why those developed asian countries all have strong Chinese-Confucian hsitory (Japan, S.Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore)
> 
> the only remaining developing confucian country is China but it's growing with the fastest pace ever in human history


Confucianism is pretty much a thing of the past, and China is certainly not the only remaining developing state that was formerly Confucian. There's also Vietnam, and of course, North Korea.



kamloon said:


> Low tax rate didnt help much in the early stage of HK's development, HK's miracle was due to the hard working labour back to the 1960s, thanks to the Confucian Idea, just like japan, S.Korea, Taiwan and Singapore, these places' people tend to stress on their children's academic result and put a lot of resources on education
> 
> and you can see those students with the best academic result in U.S. universities are mostly from these places


Confucianism as a factor in economic development is largely dismissed in academic circles. All the countries you mentioned followed very different developmental paths. For instance, success of Hong Kong and Singapore can be largely attributed to their strategic locations and British colonialism(legal system & language). These are two most important factors that made them successful trading ports and financial hubs today. 

Japan was already an industrialized country long before the economic miracle. Although its infrastructure was ruined by the war, it still had a skilled population base that was able to give Japan a headstart in developing an industrialized economy.

As for South Korea, political rivarly with North Korea and lack of natural resources were some of the most important factors. Before the 70s, North Korea was far more developed than South Korea with a stronger economy. This power disparity gave the military dictatorship that was in control of South Korea at the time a huge incentive to develop heavy industries to increase production capability of military equipment. That eventually lead to a focus on development of mass education to build a large skilled population base to support the development of heavy industries. With American aid and compensations from Japan, South Korea was able to successfully jumpstart its infrastructure development and a steel industry, which became the foundation of the South Korean "economic miracle". The German labor market and the infrastructure projects in Saudi Arabia also played crucial roles in the earlier stages of this "economic miracle", which brought in the much needed capital to rapidly develop.


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