# Linguistic issues - road signs



## bozata90

Since many of the topics include linguistic issues, it is good to have one to transfer all such opinions and to make such discussions here. I am sorry if there is another such thread - if there is I'd like the moderator to delete this one.

My personal opinion is that we have to respect other nations' and minority languages and to write everything as it is written in its on language (as in D). But I still think that it is good to have double signs (like Rijeka/Reka) for places with strongly different names in the local than the original language (example: Bulgarian - "Solun"; Greek - "Thessaloniki").

For me it is also annoying to see old signs written only in Cyrillic here in Bulgaria (there are also a few of them in Greece).For me there is no problem to read signs in all the three scripts present in Europe (Latin, Cyrillic, Greek), but I do not think that all people shall know all the three to get around. That's why such case often make me crazy - I often have to tell Greeks where to drive to go to Ruse for example.


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## bozata90

*Bulgaria*

The main linguistic issue here is, of course, the Latin - most of the old signs are written only in Cyrillic and this makes them really hard to read by a foreigner. The other problem is that we have two transcriptions - an old one (with diacritic signs like č š and ă) and new one: http://transliteration.mdaar.government.bg/trans.php, which shall be used everywhere, but it is not and this is really sad. That is why you may see signs like: "Rousse","Russe" and "Ruse".

The other very annoying thing is that we usually sign the border check-points instead of towns in neighbor countries (these are signed only 50 km from the border or so), much like in Poland. This is still not a big issue since we are not in Schengen, but if things don't change it will be really sad.

Minority languages are also not respected. I do not understand why bulgarians fear signs in Turkish (there are no official Turkish signs in BG, but there are many informal ones). I guess we still have much way to go until we reach the situation (for example) in Italy or Istria...


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## Verso

Italy is not exactly a model country, when it comes to this.  I think signs should always be (also) in the language of the city it points to. Countries not necessarily, if you add oval.


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## ChrisZwolle

My preference is to sign cities in their original language, since you need to know that anyway to continue in the other country. However, this is problematic when a city is bilingual, such as Brussel/Bruxelles. 

The most important thing is that signs are legible. Some countries really mess it up with translations, sometimes all places are translated, sometimes only a few or only one. 

The main problem (IMO) is that linguistic strifes are implemented on signs, something clearly visible in Belgium for example, which makes the signage unclear or even worse when destinations are painted over with graffiti. You can't expect a Czech or Swede to know the translations of all major Belgian cities in both Dutch and French. 

Luckily, I noticed Germany and the Netherland start to replace signs with only the exonym, for instance Arnheim and Nimwegen are now more and more signed as "Arnhem" and "Nijmegen", their actual names. Same in the Netherlands where "Keulen" and "Aken" are mostly replaced with "Köln" and "Aachen".


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## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> However, this is problematic when a city is bilingual, such as Brussel/Bruxelles.


That's the main problem in Slovenia, f.e., with large Slovenian minority in all neighboring countries, except Croatia (disputed areas excluded ). I'm pretty sure we'll never see signs in Slovenia saying just 'Trieste', 'Trst' will always be included, even though the city is officially not bilingual, for which you can thank Italian extreme nationalism.


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## Timon91

There are some bilingual signs in the northern part of the Netherlands, where most towns are signed in Dutch and in Frisian.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Those are city limit signs only. Not the road signage itself. You can also find those in Limburg.


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## Palance

A bad example of a bilangual sign:









This is better:


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## bozata90

That's what I meant: bilingual sign are only necessary when the names in the different languages are strongly different: like the case of Solun - Thessaloniki or Cardiff - Caerdydd. For the case with Paris - this is ridiculous, almost everybody in the world knows how to spell it in French... I'd prefer "Paris [F]"!


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## Verso

The first sign is absolutely terrible. Doornik ("Dornik") sounds very Slovenian, btw.


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## Ayceman

bozata90 said:


> The main linguistic issue here is, of course, the Latin - most of the old signs are written only in Cyrillic and this makes them really hard to read by a foreigner. The other problem is that we have two transcriptions - an old one (with diacritic signs like č š and ă) and new one: http://transliteration.mdaar.government.bg/trans.php, which shall be used everywhere, but it is not and this is really sad. That is why you may see signs like: "Rousse","Russe" and "Ruse".


I actually hate the current official transliteration for Bulgarian, as it's made from an English perspective, and while most people that visit Bulgaria know English, they mostly know it as a second language, so they don't tend to read foreign names from an English perspective. The old system (with š, č, ž, ă) was better. Besides, the new one doesn't differentiate а (a) from ъ (ă - in the old system), that are pronounced radically different.


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## Ban.BL

^^agree


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## bozata90

And how do you expect a French to read all this? Or how shall I write messages in bulgarian, when I do not have the Cyrillic on the keyboard. This system was not made because of the English - they decided to make it without diacritics, so it will be easier to use it on the computer keyboard.. The system was made by team of linguists, using English, French and German respectively. That is why we do not use "j", but "zh" for Ж.


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## Ban.BL

what is from french and geman?


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## bojc

bozata90 said:


> And how do you expect a French to read all this?


And how do you expect non-French speaking to read French names?



bozata90 said:


> This system was not made because of the English - they decided to make it without diacritics, so it will be easier to use it on the computer keyboard.


So it seems it is just a problem with the keyboards? Bad keyboards are a technical problem, not too difficult to solve, if they wanted to.



Ban.BL said:


> what is from french and geman?


Not having one to one correspondence of pronunciation and characters and not having one character for one sound. :lol:


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## Ban.BL

bojc said:


> Not having one to one correspondence of pronunciation and characters and not having one character for one sound. :lol:


so nothing? everything is from english?


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## Ayceman

Keyboard? It's only a technical issue for the country writing the signs, it's not an issue for the tourist. The reason why the old system was better is the 1-1 correspondence (especially in the a/ă department). Accurate pronunciation isn't a problem for the tourist, but the new system makes it more ambiguous. In any case you don't see Latvia, for example, as Latvian has many letters with diacritics, worrying about them, because the base alphabet is the same - Latin.

And yes, everything is from English: zh for ž, sh for š, ch for č. No ch or sch for š, tsch for č, j for ž, which would be French/German.


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## bojc

y (instead of j) for й and ts (instead of c) for ц are also english-style.



Ayceman said:


> I actually hate the current official transliteration for Bulgarian, as it's made from an English perspective, and while most people that visit Bulgaria know English, they mostly know it as a second language, so they don't tend to read foreign names from an English perspective. The old system (with š, č, ž, ă) was better. Besides, the new one doesn't differentiate а (a) from ъ (ă - in the old system), that are pronounced radically different.


I totally agree. From my experience native English speakers don't pronounce the names close to original anyway.

Another case of ambiguity happens when you transliterate words like схема in new transliteration system, the old system doesn't have such problems.


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## bozata90

The idea of the system was that it shall be used for GENERAL TRANSCRIPTION, not for road signs only. 
This is not the real problem - the problem is that they use 2 or 3 different systems... The government has chosen this one - good or bad - implement it!
Please start posting other cases, not only Bulgaria. Thank you!


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## HigerBigger

Luckily we in South Africa do not write all 11 official languages on all our signs. We normally choose one at a time for road signs. The majority will be in English with some in Afrikaans.

Official signs indicating Government institutions like courts etc will be written in English, Afrikaans and the main local languages.


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## Qwert

*Example of NOT bilingual signage from Slovakia*

Old style without ovals and motorway numbers:

















Present one with ovals for foreign destinations and numbers of motorways in red rectangles:


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## ChrisZwolle

That's excellent! No stupid translations.


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## brisavoine

bozata90 said:


> For the case with Paris - this is ridiculous, almost everybody in the world knows how to spell it in French... I'd prefer "Paris [F]"!


It's just Flemish nationalism at its best (or worst, I should say). It's not there in order to help drivers, it's just a political statement.


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## Josh

brisavoine said:


> It's just Flemish nationalism at its best (or worst, I should say). It's not there in order to help drivers, it's just a political statement.


It's got nothing to do with Flemish nationalism, it's just a result of Belgian linguistic laws. You'll see the same in Wallonia where Antwerpen or Köln are signed as Anvers and Cologne.

On the new signs names in the original language are also given (Cologne - Köln, Rijsel - Lille).


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## Palance

Like this one (This is in Flandres)


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## STIB

Just one example from Sofia (2 weeks ago):









I understand the logic as follows:
- Kulata and Kalotina are border crossings, so they are in both scripts (Latin and Cyrillic), 
- Pernik is only Cyrillic being inside Bulgaria, 
- but Belgrad could also be written in Cyrillic (as *Београд*) and with the country code (which one, actually, *RS*?)


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## Ban.BL

SRB
and i don+t understand logic


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## bozata90

Well, there is no logic AT ALL. 
First: why do you sign the border check-points for some countries, while capitals for the others. ANSWER: communist heritage - Belgrad is signed because it is in the former "comrade"Yugoslavia, while Thessalonie is in the "imperialist enemy" Greece...
Second: Under the Vienna convention Bulgaria is obligated to sign ALL destinations in both Cyrillic and Latin, as Greece does= This stupid logic - it is only a small village, then why signing it in Latin is veeery stupid in my opinion - haven't you heard of village tourism!? Or Englishman owning houses in the most distant villages in Bulgaria. Don't they have the right to invite guests there? It is just silly - 'not everybody has to know how to read Cyrillic to get around in Bulgaria. So - it is not a logic - it is just inherited nonsense...


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## Muttie

Pretty much all north african countries use arabic and french in their signs, no matter the size of the village/city.

Morocco:


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## Federicoft

Some from Italy

Italian/German signs (the most obvious ones, in South Tyrol)


Italian/Friulian


Italian/Slovenian


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## Palance

Interesting, I cannot remember having seen any sign in Slovenian in Italy. I will go there in May and pay more attention to it.

An I am glad that in the UAE the signs are bilangual as well


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## RawLee

Thanks to our ancestors a 1000 years ago we changed from this to latin alphabet:










If cyrillic is a hassle to learn,what would say about this?


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## Majestic

Not that bad. Still beter than this:

喺常溫常壓下，水係無色無味嘅透明液體。喺自然界裏面，純水超罕見，水通常係酸、鹼、鹽等物質嘅溶液，習慣上仍然將呢種水溶液叫做水。純水可以通過蒸餾作用取得，當然，呢個只不過係相對意義上純水，唔可能絕對冇雜質。水係一種可以喺液態、氣態同固態之間轉化嘅物質。固態嘅水叫做冰；氣態叫水蒸氣。


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## Timon91

I remember seeing a sign in Italy (south Tirol) on which Bolzano was signed in Italian, German and Frulian (Bolzano/Bozen/Busan or sth). Three languages is too much IMO


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## RipleyLV

Lithuania is the only country in the Baltic states that uses bilingual signage.
Example, Ryga/Rīga:









Varšuva/Warszawa:


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## The Knowledgeable

All signs in Israel are trilingual.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Horrible!... But necessary with different scripts..


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## schmidt

I know most names in South America cannot be translated, but most of the signs here are written in the language of the destination.

When I was going to Foz do Iguaçu (in the Argentina/Paraguay border) I saw some signs for Asuncion as Asunción instead of Assunção (which would be the name in PT). The differences are so minimal though.


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## Qwert

RawLee said:


> Thanks to our ancestors a 1000 years ago we changed from this to latin alphabet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If cyrillic is a hassle to learn,what would say about this?


And what about this. Ancestor of Cyrillic which was used in 9th century in Slovakia and surroundings:


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## Palance

Moree trilangual signs:

Kosovo:









Belgium: Signs in 3, 2 and 1 language


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## Muttie

In Southern Spain I once saw a road sign in Arabic and Spanish


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## bozata90

Qwert said:


> And what about this. Ancestor of Cyrillic which was used in 9th century in Slovakia and surroundings:


Glagolitic was also in use in Bulgaria until the 13th century. I am not complaining because I can not read Cyrillic. I can read Cyrillic, Latin, Greek and Glagolitic. But the problem is not in me personally. Not everybody coming from Holland to Bulgaria shall be obliged to read Cyrillic. The "international" alphabet, as you know is Latin - every sign in the world shall have it... that is my logic at least. It is not so hard to learn to read Latin, but it is much harder to learn to read Chinese script...


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## Cicerón

Muttie said:


> In Southern Spain I once saw a road sign in Arabic and Spanish


Those signs are also in the North of Spain, especially in summer months, in order to guide the Morocann, Algerian and Tunisian people who live in Europe and go back to their countries during their holidays.

Here you have one in Madrid: http://maps.google.es/?ie=UTF8&ll=4...cbp=12,206.56096842585362,,2,-9.1917189066737

They basically say either Algeciras or Almería, the two main ports with ferries to Africa.


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## Verso

A trilingual sign in Slovenia (for one city).


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## Ayceman

^^ Unfortunate name that city has for Romanian (pula=dick) :lol:


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## silviubad

you're right. LOL


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## LMB

Qwert said:


> Old style without ovals and motorway numbers:


Those are the best examples I've seen. The even include the proper accents over Győr and Zwardoń. :cheers:

Kudos to the administration, obviously their nationalism hasn't won with their professionalism. And there obviously are "unresolved national issues" in Central Europe.


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## Wover

Examples in Finland (Finnish/Swedish).

You will only find these bilangual signs in West-Finland, in the Vaasa region.


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## paF4uko

bozata90 said:


> Glagolitic was also in use in Bulgaria until the 13th century. I am not complaining because I can not read Cyrillic. I can read Cyrillic, Latin, Greek and Glagolitic. But the problem is not in me personally. Not everybody coming from Holland to Bulgaria shall be obliged to read Cyrillic. The "international" alphabet, as you know is Latin - every sign in the world shall have it... that is my logic at least. It is not so hard to learn to read Latin, but it is much harder to learn to read Chinese script...


Latin - OK, "ch" = "ч" - NO! The latter would be pronounced "ч" in English and Spanish, but in French for example it would be "ш" (š). I'm for the use of diacritic signs like it was before and, by the way, like the UN currently does when transliterating Bulgarian names. For me the UN system is closer to our language than the "Niki (Mouse) Vasilev" one. Besides the UN is an international organization... So, in conclusion, long live "âščž", "j" for "й" and "c" for "ц"! :cheers:


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## paF4uko

Verso said:


> A trilingual sign in Slovenia (for one city).


I love the bi/tri-lingual signs in Istra. It's a part of the region's charm.  Sometimes names have phonetical similarities, but not really the same semantic. Sometimes there isn't any semantic at all. For instance I see clearly where "Trst" comes from, but have no clue what's the morphology of "Trieste".
I've also always wondered what's the origin of the Slovenian "Koper", whether "Capodistria" is obvious - the head of Istria. 

P.S: In Bulgarian we have a word that's pronounced the very same way as "Koper" in Slovene, but it means "dišava" (en: dill)


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## Verso

Yeah, 'koper' is dill in Slovenian too, maybe there's a lot of it in Koper.  Joke, I don't know its origin.


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## Timon91

In Dutch "Koper" means copper (the metal, not the police officer), or buyer/purchaser. Triest, in Italy, very close to Koper, means sad in Dutch


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## paF4uko

Verso said:


> Yeah, 'koper' is dill in Slovenian too, maybe there's a lot of it in Koper.  Joke, I don't know its origin.


No kidding, it could be that - the same way Trst comes from "trstika".  Do you also say "dišava" for "dill", 'cause that's what I learnt?... :O



Timon91 said:


> In Dutch "Koper" means copper (the metal, not the police officer), or buyer/purchaser. Triest, in Italy, very close to Koper, means sad in Dutch


"triest" = "sad" - like "triste" in French?


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## Timon91

:yes:


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## Palance

And in Croatia, you will still find signs with "Kopar" on it...


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## paF4uko

Palance said:


> And in Croatia, you will still find signs with "Kopar" on it...


I guess it's because "kopar" is closer to the SLO pronounciation [kopər] than "koper". :lol:


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## x-type

Palance said:


> And in Croatia, you will still find signs with "Kopar" on it...


i remember only one, i saw it in Pula and it was at least 10 years ago. i don't remember when i heardsomebodyKopar. we mostly call it koper (i said mostly, because there are some puritans at ssc who call it Kopar)


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## Palance

I have seen some on the road from Pula northbound indeed, and also 10 years ago. Pherhaps this has changed now.


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## Verso

paF4uko said:


> Do you also say "dišava" for "dill", 'cause that's what I learnt?... :O


"Dišava" is fragrance or spice.

Those old signs in Croatia were saying "Kopar/Capodistria", but no "Koper".  And I bet Croats pronounce it [koper] instead of [kopər], so they better stick to [kopar]. :lol:


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## paF4uko

x-type said:


> i remember only one, i saw it in Pula and it was at least 10 years ago. i don't remember when i heardsomebodyKopar. we mostly call it koper (i said mostly, because there are some puritans at ssc who call it Kopar)


When you go north from Pula to the Slovenian border you have those "Kopar" signs all along the "brza cesta".


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## Muttie

Cicerón said:


> Those signs are also in the North of Spain, especially in summer months, in order to guide the Morocann, Algerian and Tunisian people who live in Europe and go back to their countries during their holidays.
> 
> Here you have one in Madrid: http://maps.google.es/?ie=UTF8&ll=4...cbp=12,206.56096842585362,,2,-9.1917189066737
> 
> They basically say either Algeciras or Almería, the two main ports with ferries to Africa.


So they actually remove those signs after the summer period?


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## LoKeY

I always found the bilingual sign near Koper quite funny: Semedela / Semedella


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## Verso

LoKeY said:


> I always found the bilingual sign near Koper quite funny: Semedela / Semedella


Beware Pince/Pince.


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## Mateusz

That's waiste of taxpayers's money


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## brisavoine

Some new bilingual signs in France. Before, the road signs were only unilingual French, but since a few years ago, in line with what's happening in other European countries, a lot of billingual signs have appeared in France. Personally, I find it stupid to translate all the road signs in the regional languages that few people speak anymore. Oftentimes, it makes the signs too complicated and hard to read. Lots of people complain about it. I heard the same complaints in Scotland where many signs in the Highlands are now billingual English/Scottish Gaelic, which many Scottish people find confusing.

Bilingual signs French/Breton in Britanny. Completely excessive.









French/Basque signs, in the French Basque country. Again, it defeats the purpose of informing motorists.









Bilingual signs in Corsica. Here the Corsican nationalists have covered the French names with black ink.









Signs indicating the entrance and exit of towns and villages have also been translated into the local regional languages in recent years. This has happened in many places. 20 years ago, there were no such signs. In some cases the sign in the local regional language is smaller and with a different color, in order to be a cultural reminder but not to confuse motorists. For example here this town in Roussillon has its official sign in French, and a smaller sign indicating the name of the town in Catalan, the original language of Roussillon (spoken today by only a third of people in Roussillon). I think this is the best way to proceed: small sign for cultural purposes, different enough from the official sign in order not to confuse motorists.









In other places they use the same sign formats as the official French signs (same format and colors), which is very confusing. Here for example at the entrance of this village in Eastern Britanny they have added the name of the village in Gallo below the French name. Gallo is a Romance dialect akin to French; it is completely different from Celtic Breton (Celtic Breton was not spoken in Eastern Britanny, only Gallo was spoken). Today extremely few people still speak the Gallo dialect, yet they added the Gallo name in big letters and on a sign identical to the official French sign, which is way overboard in my opinion.









Here you have four villages in southern France, in the area where Occitan was the historical regional language. As you can see, each village has its own policy. All have added the Occitan name of the village, but some have added only a smaller cultural sign, while other have added an Occitan sign almost ressembling the official French sign. The last village to the bottom right seems to have a completely separated Occitan sign (is there also a French sign? it would be illegal not to have one).









In Nice, they have added the name of the city in the Niçard dialect (a dialect akin to Occitan), and they use signs identical to the official French signs for that. That's a bit ridiculous considering that almost nobody speaks the Niçard dialect anymore in Nice these days.









Funny enough, in Alsace, which is the French region where the regional language is spoken by most people (still two-third of Alsatians can speak it), whereas in Corsica, Britanny, and the French Basque Country far less people can speak the regional languages, there are almost no Alsatian signs on the roads. Almost all the signs are French only. That's probably because Alsatians were traumatized by their annexation by Germany, so there is no demand for bilingual road signs, whereas in regions where the regional languages are dying such as Britanny there are demands for bilingual signs. Here some road signs in Alsace, all in French, despite the fact that most people around can speak the Alsatian dialect:









This new trend of adding signs in regional languages has led to some excesses. In Britanny, in the département of Morbihan, which lies on the historical language border between Romance dialects (Gallo) and Celtic Breton, the departmental council, led by a president who doesn't even speak Breton, has made Breton road signs mandatory in the entire département, including in the eastern part of the département where Breton was not spoken. 

Some mayors in the eastern part of Morbihan are opposed to having bilingual signs in Breton. They say it's a waste of tax payers' money (200 euros per sign), and it's artificial since Breton was not spoken in their territory. Some of them put black tape to hide the translated Breton names (these translated Breton names are invented by the Office of the Breton Language which is in the hands of some minority Breton nationalists, and these translated names are not based on anything historical, according to the mayors).

Link for further information: http://aosb.free.fr/



















"Abusive use of Breton on road signs" says this local article (this is near Rennes, in an area where Breton was never spoken):









In Roussillon, where one-third of people can still speak Catalan, the departmental council wanted to add some Catalan signs on the A9 motorway linking France to Spain which would have said "Benviguts a Catalunya Nord" ("Welcome to Northern Catalonia"), but the French State refused those signs last year. Only the French State can decide which signs go on the motorways (contrary to local roads).

It's beyond me how these local politicians did not understand the political consequences of such signs, and the territorial claims behind the "Northern Catalonia" name. That's the kind of excesses going on in France at the moment in reaction to 200 years of official unilinguilism.


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## Verso

Better than this unreadable 'Pliberk', representing a third of the town's population:










But we're getting nationalistic. No wonder, brisavoine showed up.


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## ChrisZwolle

Brisavoine does have a good point though. Bilingual signage is always in line with language strives, and go past the actual purpose of those signs; informing those unknown to the area.


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## x-type

Verso said:


> "Dišava" is fragrance or spice.
> 
> Those old signs in Croatia were saying "Kopar/Capodistria", but no "Koper".  And I bet Croats pronounce it [koper] instead of [kopər], so they better stick to [kopar]. :lol:





paF4uko said:


> When you go north from Pula to the Slovenian border you have those "Kopar" signs all along the "brza cesta".


i doubt because all new direction signs in HR have only original names of foreign cities, and B9 from viaduct Limska Draga to north has onlynew direction signs (that viaduct is just after intersection with B8 in Kanfanar).

Verso is right - Kopar can be seen on most old signs, while Koper is on new (i have explained why). here is the proof:

old









old









new









new









unfortunately, i don't have any photo from B9


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## paF4uko

x-type said:


> i doubt because all new direction signs in HR have only original names of foreign cities, and B9 from viaduct Limska Draga to north has onlynew direction signs (that viaduct is just after intersection with B8 in Kanfanar).
> 
> Verso is right - Kopar can be seen on most old signs, while Koper is on new (i have explained why). here is the proof:


I don't know if those were new or old signs, but I saw it on several places on my trip from Medulin to Trieste this summer.


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## Verso

x-type said:


>


Is "Fıume" in Turkish?


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## x-type

Verso said:


> Is "Fıume" in Turkish?


that was exactly my thought


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## Miguel_PL

LMB said:


> Those are the best examples I've seen. The even include the proper accents over Győr and Zwardoń. :cheers:
> 
> Kudos to the administration, obviously their nationalism hasn't won with their professionalism. And there obviously are "unresolved national issues" in Central Europe.


But why ZWARDOŃ ?! :bash: It's a little village near the border... Why the Slovaks haven't signed Bielsko - Biała for example ?


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## Palance

Stragne that Koper and Trieste are not bilangual, but Umag/Novigrad and Rijkea are.

Since when is Trieste signed in Italian, and not only Trst?


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## Verso

Palance said:


> Stragne that Koper and Trieste are not bilangual, but Umag/Novigrad and Rijkea are.


Well, Trieste is officially monolingual, but Rijeka is too. I also miss "Centro".



Palance said:


> Since when is Trieste signed in Italian, and not only Trst?


Since independence, I suppose.


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## x-type

Palance said:


> Stragne that Koper and Trieste are not bilangual, but Umag/Novigrad and Rijkea are.
> 
> Since when is Trieste signed in Italian, and not only Trst?


that's actually part of croatian precise rules for foreign destinations. so, bilingual can be signed only places inside Croatia. foreign destinations are signed in original language and in official language in whole country (so foreign bilingualism is not considered)


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## Gag Halfrunt

Miguel_PL said:


> But why ZWARDOŃ ?! :bash: It's a little village near the border... Why the Slovaks haven't signed Bielsko - Biała for example ?


Is Zwardoń the location of the border post?


----------



## Qwert

Miguel_PL said:


> But why ZWARDOŃ ?! :bash: It's a little village near the border... Why the Slovaks haven't signed Bielsko - Biała for example ?


I agree signing of Zwardoń is useless there. Much better would be Bielsko-Biała and Ostrava or Český Těšín. I hope new sections of D3 closer to the borders will have signs with mentioned destinations



Gag Halfrunt said:


> Is Zwardoń the location of the border post?


Yes.


----------



## brisavoine

Lost in translation, somewhere on a road in Greater Tokyo. 










PS: Personally I'm fortunate that I can read Japanese, so if you're curious what the sign means, well it means "Drop your speed!!" Note that the characters on the first line are simply a phonetic transcription of the English word "speed" (these characters are read "supiido"). It's typically Japanese (post WW2-Japan) to use English words everywhere, just not in the Latin alphabet. A Chinese person would find that very weird (there is of course a word with Chinese characters to express the concept of speed, so no need to transcribe phonetically the English word "speed").


----------



## karim123

Signage in Lebanon is bilingual (arabic and french)


----------



## brisavoine

^^It would look more classy if they had the same franco-arabic signage in Dubai.


----------



## Interstate275Fla

*Differences between symbols and word message signs: Movable bridges*

So far this is a great thread on linguistic issues as far as road signs are concerned. Being an American who lives in the great state of Florida I would like to share with you a difference in the signs we have in the USA compared to the signs in the rest of the world.

Having read many of the threads here on the Highways and Autobahns topic, I noticed that particularly in Europe you have symbols on your warning signs which I believe you are well used to. However, it's practically a different story if you happen to take a trip to the USA.

Most of our warning signs - which are always a diamond shape with a yellow background (even Ireland from what I understand has the same diamond shape warning signs like we do) - have some of the internationally recognized symbols such as the merging traffic and traffic signals ahead signs. Let's take a good example of a warning sign in the USA, the one where it warns you of a movable bridge ahead.

Before I go on further, the terms movable bridge and drawbridge mean the same thing. This should alleviate any confusion.

First, here's the movable bridge ahead sign that is commonly used in Europe (this sign is an Italian version from Wikipedia):










This tells you that a movable bridge is ahead and to prepare to stop if you have to.

Now here's the sign for a movable bridge - called a drawbridge - that is used in the USA:










The major difference is that instead of an internationally recognized symbol, it is actually a word message sign written in English which may be confusing for our international visitors. Which leads me to a suggestion to replace the word message Draw Bridge Ahead warning sign with an internationally recognized symbol sign.

I have drawn up a draw bridge ahead warning sign incorporating the international symbol for a movable bridge plus an educational plaque on the bottom for the sign's meaning:










I feel something like this would benefit our visitors from Europe and the rest of the world to let people know of an upcoming movable bridge. Not to get off topic here, but the USA DOT recently released a new version of the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices which has made a lot of updates to our signage. However, I feel that the Draw Bridge Ahead warning sign should have been made into a internationally recognized symbol here in the USA for the benefit of our international visitors.


----------



## brisavoine

Some pictures of bilingual signs (Arabic and French) that I took in the far south of Morocco last year.

Here I was in the Sahara Desert. The sign says: "Caution: sands" 









This one is about the construction of rural roads in the province of Tata, one of the most remote provinces in Morocco (you cross only one odd car every half hour on the road):









Foreign exchange at a post office in an oasis in the middle of nowhere:









This one says: "Caution! Risk of getting stuck in the sand"









This sign informs people that a water treatment plant is under construction in Foum Zguid, financed 70% by the Islamic Bank of Development and 30% by the municipality of Foum Zguid. Foum Zguid is one of those 'end of the world' sort of places...









The summit of the Tichka Pass, in the High Atlas, 2,260 m/7,415 ft above sea-level. It's snow you can see to the right of the picture.









Down from the pass:









Finally, two more pictures I took in the far south of Morocco. Not some road signs, but I'm sure you'll enjoy them.


----------



## Mr_Dru

HigerBigger said:


> Luckily we in South Africa do not write all 11 official languages on all our signs. We normally choose one at a time for road signs. The majority will be in English with some in Afrikaans.
> 
> Official signs indicating Government institutions like courts etc will be written in English, Afrikaans and the main local languages.


When I was in SA, I notice that in the Westcape province they use English and Afrikaans for the name Capetown. But they never use both names on one sign. It's very clear.

*Capetown*









*Kaapstad*









*Stad - City*


----------



## domtoren

*Lithuania*










Highway in Lithuania, bilingual signs Lithuanian and Russian
photo from a book by Michael Welder about a trip to Kaliningrad / Koenigsberg, 1990


----------



## Tego

A few signs from NE Bulgaria:


----------



## Czas na Żywiec

^^ So do I turn right or left to get to Balchik? :nuts:

And that's interesting that the Lithuanian sign reads "Kaliningradas" instead of Karaliaucius. Russification at full force I guess.


----------



## eskandarany

*Xinjiang / East Turkestan*

Often signs in this province are bilingual in Uyghur Arabic script & Chinese script:

























There are much better photos of bilingual signs on expressways which I couldn't re-find but it's quite interesting to browse the area for photos on google earth! :banana:


----------



## Di-brazil

*brazilian signs (in portuguese)*


----------



## Coccodrillo

too many pics = no pics (imho)


----------



## Ennis

Di-brazil said:


>


:rofl:


----------



## bogdymol

*I bet you never saw this roadsign before*

:cheers1:








And a closer one: 








It means "Drunk citizens" (Drunk people) :cheers:
I made this pictures last evening in the town of Pecica, Arad county, Romania (it was raining).


----------



## Christophorus

^^

Wow. thats great and gave me a very big smile now :cheers:

Hehe, "citizen" is a great remind of past times... but honestly, is that sign for real or a nice joke?


----------



## bogdymol

It's for real. I saw 3 signs like that in that town.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This is the way it should be.

No "Kleef" or "Keulen", but Kleve and Köln.


----------



## Germanicus

^

Well, I think biligual is the better way. Why not using the local language and the language of the city which the sign is refering to? In this case that would mean Keulen (Köln). 
Why shouldn't one use the local language at all?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Because it'll mess up the signs. Less is more, and sign space is precious.


----------



## Qwert

Germanicus said:


> ^
> 
> Well, I think biligual is the better way. Why not using the local language and the language of the city which the sign is refering to? In this case that would mean Keulen (Köln).
> Why shouldn't one use the local language at all?


Sings should provide only necessary information. Nothing more nothing less. Traffic sign is not place for exonyms lessons.


----------



## brisavoine

Can you guess where this picture was taken?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Quebec


----------



## Germanicus

^ No exonyms would mean, that you have to know all languages and town names of your neighbouring countries. I guess that's not the case. Hence, signs should always indicate the local name of a town, too. 
Sometimes less is indeed too less.


----------



## LMB

Germanicus said:


> ^ No exonyms would mean, that you have to know all languages and town names of your neighbouring countries.


1° Is that difficult? No. 

2° Are original names commonly known abroad? Usually (German language being the strange exception here: Lüttich, Genf, Breslau, Laibach? WTF?)

3° Do we have to bend over for those who can't learn the proper form? No.


----------



## zsimi80

Hungary


----------



## RawLee

ChrisZwolle said:


> It seems to be the local language (Hungarian and Serbian). The đ is not an English letter.


Novi Sad in hungarian is Újvidék,so no hungarian on that sign except for Budapest.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's because Budapest is the only Hungarian destination.


----------



## Palance

The Rabáfüzes-sign: I think that those signs could be removed since Hungary is part of Schengen.


----------



## Timon91

Indeed, but you tell the Poles 

In many central European countries those border villages are signed. Luckily they're starting to disappear slowly.


----------



## Danielk2

Why do the hungarians signpost both Grác and Graz??
It's the same freaking town


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Because foreigners may not understand Hungarian translations of Austrian/Slovakian/Whatever city names.


----------



## Danielk2

Then they should just post Graz.


----------



## seem

RawLee said:


> Novi Sad in hungarian is Újvidék,so no hungarian on that sign except for Budapest.


What does "vidék" means? Because "Újvidék" (New land?) reminds me "Felvidék". Felvidék is "Horná zem" so somethink like - "Upper land". So, it stands for a land.(?)

I was many times in Budapest and there are signs with names of Slovak towns just in Slovak language. eg, direction Vác - Šahy-Banská Bytrica

_Btw, it`s about Slovak-Hungarian relationship, sorry other forumers 

and there is also sign in two languages_

http://i.sme.sk/cdata/6/49/4962026/shooty.jpg


----------



## RawLee

Which should we write,the grammatically correct version or the pronounciation-wise correct version? Graz is pronounced Grác,and our language writes what is pronounced...


----------



## RawLee

seem said:


> What does "vidék" means? Because "Újvidék" (New land?) reminds me "Felvidék". Felvidék is "Horná zem" so somethink like - "Upper land". So, it stands for a land.(?)


Yes,new land. Though county or something similar would be better,as vidék is used as "where agriculture is".


----------



## seem

^^Maybe something like our "vidiek" - countryside?



> Which should we write,the grammatically correct version or the pronounciation-wise correct version? Graz is pronounced Grác,and our language writes what is pronounced...


 In Slovakia are names of cities on signs mainly in their language. For example, Budapest is not on sign as "Budapešť". In Slovak are always smaller towns.

EDIT: I see, it is "vidéki".


----------



## piotr71

seem said:


> and there is also sign in two languages[/I]
> 
> http://i.sme.sk/cdata/6/49/4962026/shooty.jpg


Komarno Komarom... really funny pun. Do you know anything similar related to your northern neighbour.


----------



## Qwert

Danielk2 said:


> Why do the hungarians signpost both Grác and Graz??
> It's the same freaking town


There should be just Štajerský Hradec. It's to coolest name of this city. Much better than Hungarian or Austrian:lol:.



piotr71 said:


> Komarno Komarom... really funny pun. Do you know anything similar related to your northern neighbour.


I think in Slovakia there are no municipalities with signed Polish names. BTW, does Zakopane mean "buried" in Polish as well?


----------



## seem

Qwert said:


> I think in Slovakia there are no municipalities with signed Polish names. BTW, does Zakopane mean "buried" in Polish as well?


Probably yes. :lol:

There are some signs, but not too much as in *Silesia*. 

_Bocanovice	Boconowice
Bystřice nad Olší	Bystrzyca
Český Těšín	Czeski Cieszyn
Hrádek ve Slezsku	Gródek
Jablunkov – Návsí	Jablunkow – Nawsie
Mosty u Jablunkova	Mosty / Mosty koło Jabłonkowa / Mosty przy Jabłonkowie
Třinec	Trzyniec
Vendryně	Wendrynia_


----------



## Qwert

seem said:


> Probably yes. :lol:
> 
> There are some signs, but not too much as in *Silesia*.


There are some signs with Polish municipality names in Slovakia? Which ones:nuts:?


----------



## piotr71

Qwert said:


> does Zakopane mean "buried" in Polish as well?


Almost  Basically if we want to bury someone we say *pochowac' - pochovat'* in Slovak. When dig in something we say *zakopac' - zakopat'*. 

Probably Zakopane sounds bit more funny in Slovakia than in Poland. If we can say that cemetery environment might be funny :lol:


----------



## Qwert

piotr71 said:


> Almost  Basically if we want to bury someone we say *pochowac' - pochovat'* in Slovak. When dig in something we say *zakopac' - zakopat'*.
> 
> Probably Zakopane sounds bit more funny in Slovakia than in Poland. If we can say that cemetery environment might be funny :lol:


To bury can means both pochowac' and zakopac', but I obviously see the difference. I still wonder what is the origin of Zakopane's name, maybe there's some buried treasure.


----------



## veteran

Qwert said:


> There should be just Štajerský Hradec. It's to coolest name of this city. Much better than Hungarian or Austrian:lol:


Yes and Klagenfurt should be Celovec, Székesfehérvár - Stoličný Belehrad, Sátoraljaújhely - Nové Mesto pod Šiatorom, Miskolc - Miškovec, Pécs - Päťkostolie, Szombathely - Kamenec, Salgótarján - Šalgov-Tarjany, Mosonmagyaróvár - Uhorské Staré Hrady etc. :lol:


----------



## nerdly_dood

g.spinoza said:


> Well, I found many signs in Croatia of roads leading to *Trst*... it took me quite a while to realize that means "Trieste"


I now realize that vowels are actually quite valuable. They give a word its ... oomph. So a place called Trst? hno: That just ain't right. They need a vowel.


----------



## g.spinoza

nerdly_dood said:


> I now realize that vowels are actually quite valuable. They give a word its ... oomph. So a place called Trst? hno: That just ain't right. They need a vowel.


Slavic languages. When I was in Prague our guide told us the Czech word for "ice-cream": it was 5 o 6 consonants in row, can't remember the actual word


----------



## CNGL

How about Welsh? Llanfai*rpwllgwyngyllg*ogeryrchwyrdrobwllllantysiliogogogoch has up to *14*(!) consonants in a row.
As for signs in Spain, in bilingual zones signs often become bilingual (Spanish with Catalan, Basque or Galician), but no always. I remember a sign written only in Catalan. And even I remember an electronic display sign which switched between Spanish and French! (Of course, this was just before Somport tunnel )
Destinations are almost always on the language spoken there, for example they are putting signs on A-22 which say "Lleida". But again not always: There are new signs here in Huesca which say "Lérida"! But I want to see destinations written in Spanish and local language, for example Sant Vicenç/San Vicente de Montalt, or Huesca/Uesca.


----------



## piotr71

*Zmrzliny*  If we, Poles, called ice-creams in this way, we would say zm*a*rzliny.


----------



## g.spinoza

CNGL said:


> How about Welsh? Llanfai*rpwllgwyngyllg*ogeryrchwyrdrobwllllantysiliogogogoch has up to *14*(!) consonants in a row.


I think that "w" and "y" in Welsh is considered semi-vowels.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^And in the same way, it's possible to "hold" an L or R so that they can work. "Trst" is probably pronounced something like "Trrrst."


----------



## Verso

'Trst' certainly has a vowel. It's called schwa, but we don't write it, otherwise it would have to be written 'Tərst'. It's pronounced like 'thirst', except without 'h'. In this word the schwa is represented by the letter 'i', but 'i' in Slovenian and Croatian is always pronounced as 'ee', never 'ə' (I think). I doubt it's possible to pronounce 'Trst' without a vowel.


----------



## Verso

Verso said:


> Better than this unreadable 'Pliberk', representing a third of the town's population:


I've just noticed this post of mine. I don't want to mislead you, so I have to update it. After 55 years of not implementing its international obligations, Austria finally installed proper bilingual city limit signs for the strong autochthonous Slovenian minority in the town, like it would be expected of a civilized Western European country (of course they're already smeared, as it's often the case in Italy).









_http://renedesor.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/muhlbauer-bleiburg.jpg_

(just a few years ago)


----------



## Federicoft

The Italian Government has just ordered the Provincial Government of South Tyrol to remove 36,000 monolingual German signs in the province. 
South Tyrol has announced they will appeal to the Constitutional Court.

opcorn:

http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/Region...dente-Durnwalder-serve-cautela_722410498.html


----------



## RawLee

Verso said:


> 'Trst' certainly has a vowel. It's called schwa, but we don't write it, otherwise it would have to be written 'Tərst'. It's pronounced like 'thirst', except without 'h'. In this word the schwa is represented by the letter 'i', but 'i' in Slovenian and Croatian is always pronounced as 'ee', never 'ə' (I think). I doubt it's possible to pronounce 'Trst' without a vowel.


I can do it.:dunno: It sounds like "trst"...oh wait,mine is fonetic:lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Federicoft said:


> The Italian Government has just ordered the Provincial Government of South Tyrol to remove 36,000 monolingual German signs in the province.
> South Tyrol has announced they will appeal to the Constitutional Court


A good thing they don't have real important issues in Italy, like the economy or budget deficit.


----------



## seem

piotr71 said:


> *Zmrzliny*  If we, Poles, called ice-creams in this way, we would say zm*a*rzliny.


Zmrzlina is a singular, Zmrzliny is plural. I bet you know that. 

OT: What`s Polish for ice cream?

OnT 

I was in Budapest today after a few days and I was wondering why there are also Hungarians names of cities on a signs? 

Yeah, I know we were same kingdom and Budapest was capital so Hungarians have own names for every single town. So, that means you are still using names like Pozsony, Besztercebánya, Ipolyság ? 

No problem with that, I am just wondering..


----------



## piotr71

Ice-cream and ice is just called *lód *- Slovak-*ľad*.

We use word *zmarzlina*, however the meaning of this word is: permafrost.

Anyway, all this turns around freezing, in both Slovak and Polish.


----------



## aswnl

If you want to order an icecream in Holland you have to ask for _ijs_.
But how to pronounce that vowel _ij_ ? Just like the German _ei_. So it is "_eis_". Hey, where did we hear that elsewhere ?


----------



## BND

seem said:


> I was in Budapest today after a few days and I was wondering why there are also Hungarians names of cities on a signs?
> 
> Yeah, I know we were same kingdom and Budapest was capital so Hungarians have own names for every single town. So, that means you are still using names like Pozsony, Besztercebánya, Ipolyság ?
> 
> No problem with that, I am just wondering..


Hungarians use the Hungarian names for every settlement both spoken and written. You'll neither hear anyone speaking Hungarian saying Bratislava or Wien, nor see these written down in a newspaper for exaple. You'll hear and see Pozsony and Bécs, and so on.

On traffic signs you can always see both the Hungarian and the foreign name of any settlement :cheers:


----------



## seem

BND said:


> On traffic signs you can always see both the Hungarian and the foreign name of any settlement :cheers:


Thanks God, that would be horrible to drive in Hungary and don`t know these names. :lol:

Even if I didn`t know that Hunagian for Vienna is Bécs.. :nuts:

We have also some Slovak names for your towns but we don`t use it on a signs. 

eg.

Szeged - Segedín
Miskolc - Miškovec (nobody use that, just sometimes in telly)
Békescsaba - Békešská Čaba
Győr - Ráb (also nobody use that even in telly)
Székesfehérvár - Stoličný Belehrad (very rare)
Budapest - Budapešť 
Debrecen - Debrecín (always Slovak one)

and some others, you can find Slovak translation there - http://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administratívne_členenie_Maďarska

PS, thank you piotr71


----------



## earthJoker

nerdly_dood said:


> I now realize that vowels are actually quite valuable. They give a word its ... oomph. So a place called Trst? hno: That just ain't right. They need a vowel.


----------



## g.spinoza

Federicoft said:


> The Italian Government has just ordered the Provincial Government of South Tyrol to remove 36,000 monolingual German signs in the province.
> South Tyrol has announced they will appeal to the Constitutional Court.


I think the government is right. Alto adige/Suedtirol is a dual language province, all of it. ChrisZwolle is probably right stating that there are several more important issues to be addressed in Italy, but I don't see why we should not address this one.
It's like saying that no fines will be charged for running a red traffic light because we still have a serial killer on the run :dunno:


----------



## nerdly_dood

aswnl said:


> If you want to order an icecream in Holland you have to ask for _ijs_.
> But how to pronounce that vowel _ij_ ? Just like the German _ei_. So it is "_eis_". Hey, where did we hear that elsewhere ?


I'd always figured that it would be pronounced something like "eeys" since the I is usually pronounced "ee" and the J is usually pronounced like a Y... But no, it's actually pronounced just the same as the English word "ice"...


----------



## nerdly_dood

Federicoft said:


> The Italian Government has just ordered the Provincial Government of South Tyrol to remove 36,000 monolingual German signs in the province.
> South Tyrol has announced they will appeal to the Constitutional Court.
> 
> opcorn:
> 
> http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/Region...dente-Durnwalder-serve-cautela_722410498.html


I have seen pictures of Italian police cars (Polizia di Stato) that say "Polizei" AND "Polizia" on the side.


----------



## Ayceman

Verso said:


> 'Trst' certainly has a vowel. It's called schwa, but we don't write it, otherwise it would have to be written 'Tərst'. It's pronounced like 'thirst', except without 'h'. In this word the schwa is represented by the letter 'i', but 'i' in Slovenian and Croatian is always pronounced as 'ee', never 'ə' (I think). I doubt it's possible to pronounce 'Trst' without a vowel.


Actually you can pronounce it, even though you don't realize it. The schwa when shortened enough is fused into the voiced trill of the 'r'. That said, I wonder if the Czechs call Captain Kirk - Captain Krk.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Ayceman said:


> Actually you can pronounce it, even though you don't realize it. The schwa when shortened enough is fused into the voiced trill of the 'r'. That said, I wonder if the Czechs call Captain Kirk - Captain Krk.


Right. Some linguists call R and L "liquids." A consonant is basically an interruption or constriction to the flow of vowels. A P or a T, for example, are complete interruptions, called "stops." It's hard to prolong them (You can bring your lips together to form the P sound, then delay the release, but there's no sound in between). There are sounds like S or SH - hissing-type sounds - that you can prolong, because there is some air getting through. R and L are even more so.

Okay, I'll stop now. :-/


----------



## Verso

Ayceman said:


> Actually you can pronounce it, even though you don't realize it. The schwa when shortened enough is fused into the voiced trill of the 'r'.


Yes, but then you'd need a schwa/vowel between 'r' and 's' (Trəst).


----------



## Attus

seem said:


> Yeah, I know we were same kingdom and Budapest was capital so Hungarians have own names for every single town. So, that means you are still using names like Pozsony, Besztercebánya, Ipolyság ?
> No problem with that, I am just wondering..


Exclusively. Hungarian people would never use the Slovak/Romanian/Serbian names of the cities of the ancient Hungary. 
Strange that there is a little part of the old Hungary in Austria, too (called as Burgenland nowadays) but Hungarian people use very rare the Hungarian names of the towns of Burgenland. I bet most of Hungarian people don't even know the Hungarian name for Eisenstadt (Kismarton) while in Slovakia or Romania it is the opposite: many people don't even know the Slovak name for Kassa (Košice).


----------



## seem

^^ What is strange on that?

It is good for you to know names of the cities in they own language..


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yep, otherwise you will never reach your destination in some cases :lol:


----------



## seem

^^ Like near Košice there are some brown (sightseeing) signs in Hungary for Slovak villages just in Hungarian. Who can know names of these villages in Hungarian.:nuts:

btw, what is the worst on the map you can find names in a one language..


----------



## Attus

seem said:


> ^^ What is strange on that?
> 
> It is good for you to know names of the cities in they own language..


I think it's a misunderstanding  What I find strange is the difference: 
- Hungarian people use the German names of Austrian towns, but
- Hungarian people use the Hungarian names of Slovakian/Romanian/Serbian towns.

(Btw. I do *NOT *want to start a political quarrel here but what is the "own language" for a town which is in Romania but 90% of the inhabitants are ethnically Hungarian and use the Hungarian language?)


----------



## Attus

seem said:


> ^^ Like near Košice there are some brown (sightseeing) signs in Hungary for Slovak villages just in Hungarian. Who can know names of these villages in Hungarian.:nuts:
> 
> btw, what is the worst on the map you can find names in a one language..


Road maps for the sorrounding countries but published in Hungary usually provide both names.


----------



## seem

Attus said:


> I think it's a misunderstanding  What I find strange is the difference:
> - Hungarian people use the German names of Austrian towns, but
> - Hungarian people use the Hungarian names of Slovakian/Romanian/Serbian towns.
> 
> (Btw. I do *NOT *want to start a political quarrel here but what is the "own language" for a town which is in Romania but 90% of the inhabitants are ethnically Hungarian and use the Hungarian language?)


I see and I agree with you. Why not call these cities in your language if they have also Hungarian names? 

It`s normal that people use German names because Burgenland was not so long in the Hungarian kingdom and there is not/there wasn`t so many Hungarians as in South Slovakia and parts of Romania.


----------



## seem

Attus said:


> Road maps for the sorrounding countries but published in Hungary usually provide both names.


Thanks God there is no problem with navigation cos of these double names. In Belgium they have always just one name before village but using 2 names of it (french/dutch). They are always changing and removing signs. The problem is when you check your map. 

PS: I like these multi-culutral ares. : -) Nice to traveling there and see many names in different languages.


----------



## KaaRoy

Attus said:


> Road maps for the sorrounding countries but published in Hungary usually provide both names.


Indeed. When we speak or write in Hungarian, we always use the Hungarian names of settlements in Slovakia or Transylvania. We usually also know the name of those places in the official language of the country, but that is not always the case. Sometimes you only know one or the other. 

There are easy ones:

Komarno = Komárom
Bardejov = Bártfa
Banska Bystrica = Besztercebánya
Trencin = Trencsény
Kosice = Kassa

etc.

These are usually simply translations or are otherwise easy to figure out.

But then there are difficulties, especially with the "artificial" Slovak settlement names, such as 

Sturovo = Párkány
Gabcikovo = Bős
Hurbanovo = Ógyalla

and several other ...ovo places that I guess were at some point named after some historical Slovak personalities, I have no idea why, did not these places have traditional Slovak names?

Interestingly, Tornal'a (Tornalja) was also used to be called Safarikovo in Slovak. But they changed it back in 1992, I guess because this Safarik might have been a communist or have fallen out of favour some other way.


----------



## seem

KaaRoy said:


> But then there are difficulties, especially with the "artificial" Slovak settlement names, such as
> 
> Sturovo = Párkány
> Gabcikovo = Bős
> Hurbanovo = Ógyalla
> 
> and several other ...ovo places that I guess were at some point named after some historical Slovak personalities, I have no idea why, did not these places have traditional Slovak names?
> 
> Interestingly, Tornal'a (Tornalja) was also used to be called Safarikovo in Slovak. But they changed it back in 1992, I guess because this Safarik might have been a communist or have fallen out of favour some other way.


Many people know about Štúrovo, but not so many about other. It was typical for communists to change names of towns. There are many as example (Partizánské=Baťovany, Zlín=Gottwaldovo etc.)

Some of towns get back its old name if it was using by people, these old names of cities which still have "communist" name was just forgot. 

btw, Štúrovo = Parkáň, Gabčíkovo = Béš (same pro. like in Hun.), Hurbanovo= Stará Ďala

too late to change it, people use new names after long time


----------



## KaaRoy

Then, when you are driving away from Budapest in Hungary, you often see these bilingual direction signs such as

Bécs - Wien
Pozsony - Bratislava
Nagyvárad - Oradea
Eszék - Osijek
etc.

These make perfect sense, because not all Hungarians know what the heck Oradea is, and not many foreigners know what the heck Nagyvárad is.

But then this system is sometimes taken to the extreme, such as

Ungvár - Ужгород

Now, in this case, Hungarians and Ukrainians can obviously clearly understand this, but I am not sure this helps an Englishman too much.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Only Hungarians say Nagyvárad to Oradea. On any map (that was not printed in Hungary) you can find Oradea.


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> ^^ Only Hungarians say Nagyvárad to Oradea. On any map (that was not printed in Hungary) you can find Oradea.


Just discovered that there is an Italian name for that place: Gran Varadino :lol:


----------



## bogdymol

^^ I live 117 km south of Oradea and I heard about Nagyvárad (but I could not associate it with Oradea). Gran Varadino is SF for me :lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I think the Italian name is the plain translation of the hungarian one. Nagy==big, am I correct?


----------



## KaaRoy

bogdymol said:


> ^^ I live 117 km south of Oradea and I heard about Nagyvárad (but I could not associate it with Oradea). Gran Varadino is SF for me :lol:


Well, Wikipedia also mentions Großwardein and Varat (Turkish) and רויסווארדיין (Yiddish) 

By the way, bilingualism also goes to the extreme sometimes when it is done by some regulation. Once somewhere I have seen a bilingual Romanian - Hungarian sign for Arad. It read "Arad - Arad".


----------



## KaaRoy

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I think the Italian name is the plain translation of the hungarian one. Nagy==big, am I correct?


Correct. Same with the German name. (Großwardein)


----------



## seem

^^ I was listening some of my Croatian music on PC now and ć sounds imo sth like čš.


----------



## x-type

Bad_Hafen said:


> Istria is not good example they say tj instead ć
> 
> 
> no.
> "ć" is pronounced like in italian ciao.
> type in goggle translator word cell in English to translate it in Serbian it is ćelija and you will hear it
> than type wait čekati


dude, sorry, but you have no clue about it. Istrian is extreme case of making difference between ć and č. why did i say that you have no clue? because you should study a bit about ć, palatalisation and that stuff, so you would find out that ć is nothing else but palatalized t. ciao? in Italy you will find 100 ways to pronounce it, that example is really funny. not to mention google translator.

if you have something against Istria, then i can change example. in Serbian speech and dialects difference between č and ć is much more perceptible than in Croatian, generally speaking (you will nowhere find such extreme as in Istria where they soft it so much).


----------



## engenx4

Portuguese and English


----------



## Bad_Hafen

x-type said:


> dude, sorry, but you have no clue about it. Istrian is extreme case of making difference between ć and č. why did i say that you have no clue? because you should study a bit about ć, palatalisation and that stuff, so you would find out that ć is nothing else but palatalized t. ciao? in Italy you will find 100 ways to pronounce it, that example is really funny. not to mention google translator.
> 
> if you have something against Istria, then i can change example. in Serbian speech and dialects difference between č and ć is much more perceptible than in Croatian, generally speaking (you will nowhere find such extreme as in Istria where they soft it so much).


Well you didn´t understand me, the way Istrians say ć it is not regular or typical way how it should sound. They ff course make difference and the difference is very noticeable. 
Google translator is one way where he can get a picture how it should sound if you have better way than explain him! Don´t be a smartass. 

And yes i have something against Istria :nuts:


----------



## Kevlargeist

In Finland the linguistic policy goes like this:

1) A unilingually Finnish municipality: Finnish signage
2) A unilingually Swedish municipality: Swedish signage
3) A bilingual, majority Finnish municipality: Finnish name on top, Swedish name below
4) A bilingual, majority Swedish municipality: Swedish name on top, Finnish below

If the linguistic make-up of the municipality changes, a signage change is on the way. Also, if an unilingual municipality becomes part of a bilingual municipality, also the signs of the previously unilingual area become bilingual.

A municipality is bilingual if the percentage of Swedish/Finnish-speakers in minority is at least 8% or if the speakers amount to at least 3,000 people. There are also Sami-language cases in Northern Finland.

Examples:

First in Finnish









First in Swedish


----------



## TohrAlkimista

So, on the Åland Islands how does it work?


----------



## Kevlargeist

^Everything is Swedish and only Swedish.

Like in unilingually Finnish parts of Finland where everything is only Finnish.


----------



## TohrAlkimista

No offence, but this sounds pretty discriminatory.
If I'm a Finnish and my mother tongue is Finnish (vast majority of the population), I'm not supposed to know Swedish, so, I could be a little bit confused when it comes to understand the signage.


----------



## Kevlargeist

Finland has two official languages, Finnish and Swedish, and jurisdictionally they have exactly the same status in this country. Åland is a special autonomous, self-governing province and its only official language is Swedish.

There are unilingually Finnish parts and there are unilingually Swedish parts, it's as confusing and "discriminatory" for each group to visit another language area.

And while most Finnish-speakers have only rudimentary Swedish skills, you could say they're "supposed to know Swedish", as Swedish (like Finnish) is a mandatory school subject.


----------



## Ayceman

x-type said:


> dude, sorry, but you have no clue about it. Istrian is extreme case of making difference between ć and č. why did i say that you have no clue? because you should study a bit about ć, palatalisation and that stuff, so you would find out that ć is nothing else but palatalized t. ciao? in Italy you will find 100 ways to pronounce it, that example is really funny. not to mention google translator.
> 
> if you have something against Istria, then i can change example. in Serbian speech and dialects difference between č and ć is much more perceptible than in Croatian, generally speaking (you will nowhere find such extreme as in Istria where they soft it so much).


Nominally ć is a palatalised č, but pronunciations vary.


----------



## Jonesy55

Kevlargeist said:


> Finland has two official languages, Finnish and Swedish, and jurisdictionally they have exactly the same status in this country. Åland is a special autonomous, self-governing province and its only official language is Swedish.
> 
> There are unilingually Finnish parts and there are unilingually Swedish parts, it's as confusing and "discriminatory" for each group to visit another language area.
> 
> And while most Finnish-speakers have only rudimentary Swedish skills, you could say they're "supposed to know Swedish", as Swedish (like Finnish) is a mandatory school subject.


Leaving the aland islands aside, are there many areas in Finland where Swedish is the majority language? Are these whole districts/towns or just neighbourhoods? 

I knew that there was a Swedish speaking minority in Finland but I thought that it was only the aland islands that were really Swedish linguistically and that elsewhere there was a thinly spread bilingual minority. :dunno:


----------



## x-type

Ayceman said:


> Nominally ć is a palatalised č, but pronunciations vary.


no. ć i palatalized t, and č is palatalized k


----------



## Kevlargeist

Jonesy55 said:


> Leaving the aland islands aside, are there many areas in Finland where Swedish is the majority language? Are these whole districts/towns or just neighbourhoods?
> 
> I knew that there was a Swedish speaking minority in Finland but I thought that it was only the aland islands that were really Swedish linguistically and that elsewhere there was a thinly spread bilingual minority. :dunno:


There's one mainland province that is majority Swedish, Ostrobothnia (Österbotten/Pohjanmaa), located on the western coast with a population of about 180,000 of which ca 55% are Swedish-speakers, and where some municipalities are about 98% Swedish. Then there are some (wholly independent) municipalities in Southwestern and Southern Finland that are majority Swedish-speaking.


----------



## mexico15




----------



## mexico15

This is a sign in the town of Ixmiquilpan, at the central state of Hidalgo, Mexico, where Otomi language is spoken. Mexico have 62 oficial native languages, but we dont have a lot of bilingual signs because only like 5% don't understand spanish.

Hope one day the goverment start to put bilingual signs in native zones, even if nobody talks that language like Europe .


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Cannot see the sign


----------



## CNGL

Verso said:


> Beware Pince/Pince.


Once I saw (Asturian/Spanish) San Pelayo/San Pelayo :nuts:.


----------



## Angelos

Bilingual examples of Greek sings: On top is Greek and below is latin characters


----------



## Danielk2

How come greek road signs are a total copy of german ones?


----------



## Angelos

no idea :dunno:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The signs are not very consistent, different typefaces, sometimes allcaps, sometimes lowercase. Only the arrows and road numbers are the same as in Germany.


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

^^ And signs for non-motorway roads look like British ones, the overall design idea and font is totally different from the green ones. Greeks aren't very consistent when it comes to signage


----------



## Angelos

lol signage in Greece in a painful story and complicated :lol:


----------



## ea1969

^^
1. Motorways in Greece have been given by the government to private enterprises in order to construct and/or maintain them and as there is no extensive control by the government authorities, they erect their signs in the form they think is the right. I do not believe that the government authorities even understand the signing regulations. Most public servants DO NOT care at all for their work; they also may have been appointed to their job not by the means of their skills but of those of their "connections".

2. The regulations prior to 2003 included all capital letters for motorway signs as there is less difference between the Greek and the Roman alphabet in capital letters. For example M and N are the same in capital fonts but the Greek lower case is μ rather than m and ν rather than n. So drivers going at high motorway speed would need less time to interpret the destinations. In 2003 however, the new regulations asked for mixed case (and the indication of the letter A in front of motorway numbers). But some motorway companies - like Attiki Odos for example (A6, A62, A64, A65, A642) - did/do not bother to erect new signs and also starting replacing the old ones. Why would they need to pay if nobody cares to push them to implement the changes?

3. Another bad thing is that during the last few years there are also a lot of new non-motorway signs erected following the motorway specifications and also with a number of different typefaces.

I have said a lot of things for road signing in Greece to the relevant thread. Nobody cares. So, just forget it!


----------



## koloite

I knew Austria already had a place called 'Fucking', but I didn't know that the Swiss also had their own tourist attraction. The nice little village of 'Bitsch'. :lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ EHeh!
In Italy a town in Puglia is named "Troia" which is Italian for "slut"...


----------



## CNGL

In Spain we have Guarromán, which sounds like a dirty hero :lol:.


----------



## bogdymol

A well known (at least in Romania) resort from Croatia is Pula.










If you translate that in Romanian you will get the obscene word for *****.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Really? In some Italian dialects it's slang for "police"...


----------



## koloite

bogdymol said:


> A well known (at least in Romania) resort from Croatia is Pula.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you translate that in Romanian you will get the obscene word for *****.


In Norwegian 'Pula' translates to 'fucked'...


----------



## bogdymol

koloite said:


> In Norwegian 'Pula' translates to 'fucked'...


Same family of words :hahaha:


----------



## Verso

koloite said:


> I knew Austria already had a place called 'Fucking', but I didn't know that the Swiss also had their own tourist attraction. The nice little village of 'Bitsch'. :lol:


Same in Slovenia:










Bič is pronounced the same as Bitsch or bitch. But it actually means a whip.


----------



## CNGL

Pula is also called Pola in Italian, as far as I know.
Also, I saw the first pages, and if Verso had seen Bolzano written in Friulian, he would have seen Bolgan or something like that. Bulsan, as he said, it's Ladin.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

koloite said:


> I knew Austria already had a place called 'Fucking', but I didn't know that the Swiss also had their own tourist attraction. The nice little village of 'Bitsch'. :lol:


I drove through there yesterday, it's only a few kilometers from my campsite in Brig. The main road H19 passes through it, although I doubt if that number is actually signed, I can't remember it.


----------



## Verso

CNGL said:


> Also, I saw the first pages, and if Verso had seen Bolzano written in Friulian, he would have seen Bolgan or something like that. Bulsan, as he said, it's Ladin.


You must've mistaken me for someone else, I don't remember talking about Bolzano.


----------



## Christophorus

Here you go:












some informations... just look at the site name: fucking_austria :nuts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucking,_Austria


----------



## CNGL

Verso said:


> You must've mistaken me for someone else, I don't remember talking about Bolzano.


Sorry, the forumer who saw the Bolzano/Bozen/Bulsan sign was Timon91, not you.


----------



## Verso

There's also Faak in Austria, with nearby lake Faaker See. I've been there. If you're embarrassed to say 'Faak', you can also use its Slovenian name Bače, which (un)fortunately doesn't mean anything. 

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...46.562873,13.94062&spn=0.170667,0.308647&z=12


----------



## engenx4

bilingual signal


----------



## Fatfield

A small village in the Orkney Islands........


----------



## aswnl

... and ??:dunno:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ 

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/****


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> Same in Slovenia:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bič is pronounced the same as Bitsch or bitch. But it actually means a whip.


France:


----------



## seem

Kashubians



> Kashubians/Kaszubians (Kashubian: Kaszëbi, Polish: Kaszubi/ Kaszuby, German: Kaschuben), also called Kashubs, Kashubes, Kaszubians, Kassubians or Cassubians, are a West Slavic ethnic group in Pomerelia, north-central Poland. Their settlement area is referred to as Kashubia (Kashubian: Kaszëbë, Polish: Kaszuby, German: Kaschubei, Kaschubien).
> They speak Kashubian, classified either as a language or a Polish dialect.[1][2] In analogy to the linguistic classification, Kashubians are considered either an ethnic or a linguistic group.[2]


----------



## piotr71

Part of Czech Republik inhabited by Polish minority.



















Part of Slovakia with large number of Hungarian inhabitants.









It's been posted before, but it suits to this thread as well.
Directions to Sahy on Hungarian side.










M0 motorway in Hungary.









And Slovakia again.
Where, the hell, is Polish translation!?


----------



## seem

piotr71 said:


> Part of Czech Republik inhabited by Polish minority.


First time when I was in this region, in Třinec I asked one guy for a direction to Cieszyn and I didn`t know in which language was he speaking / Slovakian, Cezch or Polish?! :nuts:

they have another Silesian language


----------



## piotr71

That's true. Natives living there, does not matter which side of the border, speak in their own funny dialect, sometimes hard to understand for people(Czechs, Slovaks or Poles) from outside the region.


----------



## seem

piotr71 said:


> That's true. Natives living there, does not matter which side of the border, speak in their own funny dialect, sometimes hard to understand for people(Czechs, Slovaks or Poles) from outside the region.


Yes, exactly and it is usually because they speak so fast and with this funny accent. What a pity I can't find any video on youtube.

Btw, what I found on wikipedia - 



> Slovanské kmeny usadivší se na Slezsku měly svůj specifický jazyk - slezštinu. Slezština se řadí do západoslovanských jazyků, ve spojení s polštinou, češtinou, slovenštinou, nebo lužickou srbštinou. Náleží tedy mezi slovanské jazyky, do rodiny jazyků indoevropských. Slezština se používá dodnes, dle polského sčítání lidu v roce 2002 se 60 000 lidí hlásilo ke slezštině jako rodnému jazyku.[4] Za jazyk ji pokládá Knihovna Kongresu Spojených států, která slezštině přiřadila mezinárodní kód „szl“.


So there is Silesian language which is used by 60 000 people in Poland.


----------



## paF4uko

*****, Newfoundland and Labrador


----------



## Schwarzpunkt

Zagor666 said:


> Merano,St.Moritz from Austria
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> :cheers:


Reschenpass from Merano









Interesting.

In Austria: Reschenpaß
in Italy (Merano): Reschenpass :nuts:

Our version is the correct one. :banana: pons.de


----------



## Zagor666

Its because in Italy they dont have the Letter ß :cheers:


----------



## Schwarzpunkt

^^
we have the ß, at least in South Tyrol (see here: Weinstraße)









This is just an error of the Austrians. Perhaps it is correct according to the old German grammar (a few years ago they introduced new orthographic rules)


----------



## g.spinoza

Correct. In Italy he most likely response to a sign like "Reschenpaß" would be: "what the hell has Greece to do with South Tyrol?

Not everybody accepted the new rules... I think Switzerland is still bound to the old ones...


----------



## Verso

^^ No, Switzerland doesn't use "ß" at all. It's probably an old sign.


----------



## Zagor666

Same Example,other place Austria/Italia :nuts: Somebody who dont speak german would´n even recognise that this "ß" is a letter not to talk about the fact that he could´n spell it,maybe say beta :lol:





:cheers:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I like the ß, I wish that English had it too.


----------



## Verso

Zagor666 said:


> Somebody who dont speak german would´n even recognise that this "ß" is a letter not to talk about the fact that he could´n spell it,maybe say beta :lol:


Reschenpab.


----------



## aswnl

Nations using latin characters sometimes have an extra letter, like the ß, þ, or ł. You just should know that, when you visit such a country. And it's just the same when you observe nations using cyrillic characters. There's not one form of cyrillic. Serbian cyrillic, Russian cyrillic, Bulgarian cyrillic: there are differences in using of letters. So why al this complaining over the ß ? It just one character replacing the old ſ and ʒ characters.


----------



## x-type

Is it officially that some German-speaking countries abandoned eszett? If yes, which?


----------



## pobre diablo

x-type said:


> Is it officially that *some German-speaking countries *abandoned eszett? If yes, which?


Appaertly Italy :naughty:


----------



## schmidt

^^ Switzerland, afaik they don't use the ß anymore.


----------



## Schwarzpunkt

x-type said:


> Is it officially that some German-speaking countries abandoned eszett? If yes, which?


No, it is not official (except Switzerland).

The German orthography was reformed in 1996 (Source: Wikipedia), the use of ß has remained in some cases (Straße).
Before of the reform was correct to write Paß, today it is a old, abandoned version. The correct version is Pass.
That sign could not be older than the reform: the reform was of 1996, the Landecker Tunnel (and this interchange) opened in 2000.


----------



## x-type

i have studied it a bit and now i see that Germans have made things more complicated, now we should pay attention on more things when to use ss, and when ß.


----------



## x-type

linguistic question for Hungarians: what does in word Murakeresztúr the suffix -úr signs?


----------



## zsimi80

Mura is a river 
kereszt = cross 
úr = Lord (God) or Mister 

But there are lots of towns with Keresztúr name... Bodrogkeresztúr, Drávakeresztúr, Ráckeresztúr (Serbian Keresztúr  ) Tótkeresztúr (Slovak Keresztúr  ) etc...

Keresztúr doesn't mean anything


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I also wish þat þe "þ" was still used often in English.

"þe olde..."


----------



## zsimi80

I don't know what "þ" is.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Isn't it similar to đ?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

"þ" in English at least is = "th"

EDIT:

Someone in Ireland misspelt "centre"










To make it stranger, its correctly spelt on the nearer sign:lol:


----------



## -Pino-

The þ is still used in Icelandic. You may want to move to Iceland...


----------



## Fargo Wolf

DanielFigFoz said:


> Someone in Ireland misspelt "centre"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To make it stranger, its correctly spelt on the nearer sign:lol:


Either way is correct actually.


----------



## g.spinoza

Fargo Wolf said:


> Either way is correct actually.


Not at the same time. Each one is correct on one side of the Atlantic.


----------



## Verso

DanielFigFoz said:


> I also wish þat þe "þ" was still used often in English.
> 
> "þe olde..."


You're using it wrongly. "þ" is indeed synonymous with "th", but pronounced like in the word "*th*ree", not "*th*at". For the latter you use "ð".



ChrisZwolle said:


> Isn't it similar to đ?


Explained above. It's written "ð", while "đ" is a Serbo-Croatian letter, pronounced like "g" in the word "ca*g*e". Both capital letters are written "Đ".


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Fargo Wolf said:


> Either way is correct actually.


Not on this side of the pond.



Verso said:


> You're using it wrongly. "þ" is indeed synonymous with "th", but pronounced like in the word "*th*ree", not "*th*at". For the latter you use "ð".



That is the case for Icelandic, not for English.


----------



## x-type

zsimi80 said:


> Mura is a river
> kereszt = cross
> úr = Lord (God) or Mister
> 
> But there are lots of towns with Keresztúr name... Bodrogkeresztúr, Drávakeresztúr, Ráckeresztúr (Serbian Keresztúr  ) Tótkeresztúr (Slovak Keresztúr  ) etc...
> 
> Keresztúr doesn't mean anything


isn't in that sense "keresztúr" that cross with Jesus that usually is in the centre of the village, or at some village intersection? something like this

and according to this "keresztúr" could be the word itself


----------



## Verso

DanielFigFoz said:


> That is the case for Icelandic, not for English.


? "þree" vs. "ðat". Clearer?


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> ? "þree" vs. "ðat". Clearer?


θree θat


----------



## zsimi80

x-type said:


> isn't in that sense "keresztúr" that cross with Jesus that usually is in the centre of the village, or at some village intersection? something like this
> 
> and according to this "keresztúr" could be the word itself


Look at this I found: http://www.kereszturiszovetseg.hu 

Association of Keresztúr Settlements


----------



## Falubaz

x-type said:


> Is it officially that some German-speaking countries abandoned eszett? If yes, which?


Switzerland doesnt use it, and even in the 'german german' there is not eszett when using capitals (uppercase letters) it is replaced by double "s" = SS


----------



## ed110220

Verso said:


> ? "þree" vs. "ðat". Clearer?


I can do without the German esszet, but it's a pity English has lost these. Most (all except English and Icelandic?) Germanic languages have lost those two sounds too.

Talking of authographic conventions, Afrikaans has a few that look a bit odd to others, such as this one: HOëRSKOOL COLESBERG

I'm not sure if special characters like ë, ê, ô etc can never correctly be capitalised but usually if a word is written all in capitals they are not.


----------



## Fargo Wolf

I've noticed that drivers in Kamloops seem to be dyslexic. I had to do a lane closure curb lane) on three consecutive days and for those three days, drivers saw the "right lane closed ( TW - 61R) pic here, but you need to scroll down to section 2.1.3.2 : http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/publications/eng_publications/TCM/Chapter_2.pdf only to have them move into the right lane, before they came to the arrow pointing them into the left lane. I wonder if the text version of the sign would have worked better (text version isn't available here, nor is it permitted to be used).


----------



## Christophorus

x-type said:


> does D have something else beside Ausfahrt? i don't remember at the moment.


On signs you will only find "Ausfahrt", but people like to speak of "Abfahrt" too.


----------



## ArthurK

^^ I like the German "Ausfahrt"-signs, since it literally translates to "uitvaart" in Dutch, which means "funeral". :cheers:


----------



## mmmartin

Well, about "ausfart": once we went to Belgium with a bus. A friend of mine, who doesn't understand German, said seriously at one point: "This must be a big city, Ausfart, we're passing along for at least 50 km now. How come I haven't heard about it before?!"


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I have heard such a story in relation to an old Bosnian man as well :lol:. I don't understand German either, but its a bit obvious what it means because it isn't signed on previous signs


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

All roads lead to Ausfahrt


----------



## mmmartin

The guy has had quite a few drinks before asking that. It was obvious to all the others and we are still laughing to that today.


----------



## MattiG

mmmartin said:


> Well, about "ausfart": once we went to Belgium with a bus. A friend of mine, who doesn't understand German, said seriously at one point: "This must be a big city, Ausfart, we're passing along for at least 50 km now. How come I haven't heard about it before?!"


All the metro stations in Paris carry the same name Sortie.


----------



## ed110220

ArthurK said:


> ^^ I like the German "Ausfahrt"-signs, since it literally translates to "uitvaart" in Dutch, which means "funeral". :cheers:


:lol:

I don't really see why writing out the word is necessary (except for providing amusement/confusion for foreigners:lol

BTW, _afrit_ is also used in Afrikaans (I have never heard _uitrit_) for a freeway exit, though an exit from a building or carpark is an _uitgang_.

What the Dutch call a _knooppunt_ (interchange) is a _wisselaar_.

For example the _William Nicol exit_ is the _William Nicol-afrit_ and the _Swartklip Interchange_ is the _Swartklip-wisselaar_.


----------



## Josh

Afrit is also used in Belgium. It's only the Dutch that use "uitrit".


----------



## Penn's Woods

mmmartin said:


> Well, about "ausfart": once we went to Belgium with a bus. A friend of mine, who doesn't understand German, said seriously at one point: "This must be a big city, Ausfart, we're passing along for at least 50 km now. How come I haven't heard about it before?!"


The German-speaking parts of Belgium don't have enough freeway to have 50 km worth of Ausfahrt....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Josh said:


> Afrit is also used in Belgium. It's only the Dutch that use "uitrit".


Are you sure?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^mg:


----------



## bogdymol

mmmartin said:


> Well, about "ausfart": once we went to Belgium with a bus. A friend of mine, who doesn't understand German, said seriously at one point: "This must be a big city, Ausfart, we're passing along for at least 50 km now. How come I haven't heard about it before?!"


My girlfriend once asked me about this very big city in Hungary called *Kijárat*:










Now I'm teasing her with this thing almost everytime we are going on a motorway in Hungary :lol:


----------



## hofburg

MattiG said:


> All the metro stations in Paris carry the same name Sortie.


so that would make someone think that's a really big square covering all Paris or what


----------



## zsimi80

bogdymol said:


> My girlfriend once asked me about this very big city in Hungary called *Kijárat*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm teasing her with this thing almost everytime we are going on a motorway in Hungary :lol:


I can't see your image, but your story is funny


----------



## aswnl

To make it even more fun, a Dutch AFrit (exitramp) is signposted with the word UIT...
And an OPrit (onramp) is officially called a TOErit.


----------



## shpirtkosova

OK, here is an awsome one from Kosovo.










Translation from Albanian:

1: Ox *****
2: Bombshell *****
3: Father To ****

The reason for this is the names are probably slavic origins and have not been changed back to the Albanian original names of the villages.


----------



## bogdymol

zsimi80 said:


> I can't see your image, but your story is funny


You could try refreshing the page. Picasa dosen't work as it should be sometimes. If refreshing dosen't work, click the link: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kVrjV8d_Iic/TbhqlFjGRfI/AAAAAAAABTs/16wRVjPrmUY/s912/DSC_0826.JPG


----------



## CNGL

shpirtkosova said:


> OK, here is an awsome one from Kosovo.
> 
> Translation from Albanian:
> 
> 1: Ox *****
> 2: Bombshell *****
> 3: Father To ****
> 
> The reason for this is the names are probably slavic origins and have not been changed back to the Albanian original names of the villages.


:rofl::rofl:. And I laugh at this when I see this town on a map: http://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ie=UTF8&ll=40.52083,15.504177&spn=0,0.019076&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.520712,15.504349&panoid=yJ9IVoz2Z95uuOlsYAl2iw&cbp=12,308.79,,2,-7.07.
Polla means **** in Spanish...


----------



## x-type

Falusi said:


> In Hunagrian it doesn't means anything but we have a Pula too


there is also one in Italy: link


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ But in Italian "pula" means just "chaff", that thing that envelopes rice and wheat grains... in some Italian dialects it means also "police"


----------



## seem

Blaufuss and Kuneschhau :cheers:


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## Bad_Hafen

bogdymol said:


> You guys have no ideea how funny looks this picture for Romanian forumers :rofl:


it is special pula mit halal certificate


----------



## CNGL

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ But in Italian "pula" means just "chaff", that thing that envelopes rice and wheat grains... in some Italian dialects it means also "police"


And AFAIK the Croatian Pula is Pola in Italian.


----------



## veteran

Wasting of money in Slovakia:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Talking about bilingual signs; 68% of the population of Kärnten, Austria voted in favor of bilingual city limit signs (German and Slovenian)

http://kaernten.orf.at/stories/521837/


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Haider's days are definitely past?


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Talking about bilingual signs; 68% of the population of Kärnten, Austria voted in favor of bilingual city limit signs (German and Slovenian)
> 
> http://kaernten.orf.at/stories/521837/


There are that many Slovenian-speakers there? (I don't mean 68 percent of the voters, but enough that 68 percent of the voters thought it would be a good idea.)


----------



## mmmartin

Penn's Woods said:


> There are that many Slovenian-speakers there? (I don't mean 68 percent of the voters, but enough that 68 percent of the voters thought it would be a good idea.)


The idea to support the solution was promoted by the Carinthian right wing politicians, who obviously don't want this subject on the table any more (political and economical reasons). The referendum is based on agreement from April this year, and is not so much in favor of Slovenian minority, that's why also the right wing politicians support it. And almost no bigger places are to become bilingual.

The referendum was a bit strange, it was "postal referendum", the residents got the questions in the envelopes and were asked to send them back. Another strange thing is that a majority decides about the rights of minority.

By this agreement only 164 villages will get bilingual signs, according to Austrian state contract from 1955 around 800 bilingual signs should stand in Carinthia. But the Germanization process was strong - 100 years back every 3rd person in Carinthia was Slovene, today only every 40th person still identifies itself as Slovene.


----------



## Road_UK

Germanicus said:


> ^ No exonyms would mean, that you have to know all languages and town names of your neighbouring countries. I guess that's not the case. Hence, signs should always indicate the local name of a town, too.
> Sometimes less is indeed too less.


I know this is an oldie, but I just had to respond to this one. I'm with Chris-Zwolle on this. Signs should NOT indicate the local name of a town when it's across the border, because once you cross that border, and you keep on following the signs, they won't have the translation from the country you just came from. So what's the point? Signs have one purpose only: to give directions. Language wars should be fought in parliament and on the streets only. Leave the infrastructure alone, and make it as clear and purposeful possible!


----------



## LMB

Road_UK said:


> I know this is an oldie, but I just had to respond to this one. I'm with Chris-Zwolle on this. Signs should NOT indicate the local name of a town


Most of us (regardless of the nationality) agree on the issue of exonymes. Germans, however, prefer to leave things 'as is'. The reason for this is the simple fear of a specific horrible, hairy word, the CHANGE (_enter some dramatic music_). And that would be followed by even more ugly, scary word, the ADJUSTMENT (_dramatic music at full volume_). 

When Germans hear those words, the palms of their hands sweat, the LOGIC in this industrious nation is suddenly lost, and forth comes the FEAR. The need to preserve the STATUS QUO. Look at the post by Germanicus, it contains no arguments -- there's something about having to learn "all the names of cities in surrounding countries". But isn't it the basic courtesy to know such things? And is your GPS map in your language, or is it in the local language, at most transliterated if the alphabet is different?

Roll it all up together, if the largest nation in EU has no courtesy to learn some geography, I say we leave them behind. Another PISA-like report will wake them up in 20 years, and there will me "much rejoicing". 

LMB (living in Germany, and adjusted to the changes)


----------



## Daviedoff

Road_UK said:


> I know this is an oldie, but I just had to respond to this one. I'm with Chris-Zwolle on this. Signs should NOT indicate the local name of a town when it's across the border, because once you cross that border, and you keep on following the signs, they won't have the translation from the country you just came from. So what's the point? Signs have one purpose only: to give directions. Language wars should be fought in parliament and on the streets only. Leave the infrastructure alone, and make it as clear and purposeful possible!


:applause:


Bilangual (French and Flemish) road sign. Location: E403 Moeskroen (nearby Kortrijk):


----------



## CNGL

Making an ancient quote:



Timon91 said:


> I'm sure I've seen Bolzano/Bozen/Bulsan in Southern Tirol (Italy) in 2006.


Bulsan or Balsan? I believe both forms are valid in Ladin...


----------



## aswnl

Daviedoff said:


> Bilangual (French and Flemish) road sign. Location: E403 Moeskroen (nearby Kortrijk):


Impossible to read and process completely at 120 km/h.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^That extreme example notwithstanding, my preference is for signing cities where a different language is spoken in both the language of the city and the language of the country or area you're in. If you really need to show all those destinations, it can be done differently. (I don't think you do need to show all of them. At that point, for example, you could live without the pull-through: as far as I can tell it's not a freeway-to-freeway interchange.) And break it up. A larger sign, or sign assembly, with maybe a vertical panel for the three arrows, and a separate horizontal panel for each one (lining up with the appropriate arrow on the vertical panel) with just the destinations served by that turn, and make those signs large enough to have some empty space around the names, so that you're not trying to read a wall of text at speed. Post it several times (as I assume is standard practice) - at 2 km, 1 km.... - and it becomes manageable.

In any case the area in question is a "facilities" area - where the second language is legally required to be accommodated - so even the local destinations (Mouscron/Moeskroen....) have two names, so it's unavoidable for those destinations. We could argue about whether Paris needs to be posted in Dutch as well as French.

Just my opinion....

EDIT: For that matter, even if you do need a pull-through, it doesn't need to have four destinations (in two languages each). Just a freeway symbol and maybe the route number would be enough to prevent any through traffic from taking the exit by mistake.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I like it when countries sign foreign cities in their own language, its more interesting. Imagine if you had signs in Austria for Pressburg, that would be more interesting I think.

Edit: I just found this, Olivenca is the city that is disputed between Spain and Portugal, although its de fact part of Spain. Anyway, someone in Portugal added the city's name to this sign, in Portuguese.


----------



## veteran

DanielFigFoz said:


> I like it when countries sign foreign cities in their own language, its more interesting. Imagine if you had signs in Austria for Pressburg, that would be more interesting I think.


I disagree. Cities should be from my point of view signed mainly by their official name. One story: My father was with parents on vacation in Romania in the end of 1960es. Granparents and father come from central Slovakia, but at that time were newly-moved to Košice, Slovakia. They get lost somewhere near by Miskolc because at that time in Hungary they used to sign cities only by hungarian names (Košice=Kassa in Hungarian). Of course grandparents absolutely didn't know what the Kassa means. Same situation was about town Lučenec (only Losonc), Šahy (only Ipolyság) or Bratislava (only Pozsony). 

Difficult situation was also about village Tornaľa. In 1948 it was renamed to Šafárikovo, but in Hungary around Putnok, Miskolc it was signed like Tornalja. Many people who didn't come from this region and were borned after WWII didn't know what the Tornaľa was. Same situation was with town Štúrovo - in Hungary it used to be signed only by hungarian name Párkány. 

Fortunately in Hungary they are now adding the official names, but in past it wasn't a rule.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I would imagine that Spanish people understand "Espanha" anyway


----------



## alserrod

aswnl said:


> Impossible to read and process completely at 120 km/h.


In one Spanish magazine about traffic I read the example... upside-down.

This is... in a case of some motorway exits near one to other, they were indicated every 500m, instead of all together. It is much easier to read and understand.
The article was about how many information about road signals we can remember...


It could be about ten or more years ago, at Spanish road crosses, directions were indicated with the town and distance.

Nowadays that has dissapear. On a cross only the name of town or towns for that direction.
Later, once taken correct direction, another signal will indicate distance... but in separate signals always.


----------



## Road_UK

You do see a lot of Portuguese day trippers in Spain. Spanish border towns have set up large shopping areas for visiting Portuguese - mainly due to attractive prices, and on the Portuguese motorway heading up towards the Spanish city of Vigo, Spanish shopping malls advertise their products (in Spanish only!) 

You hardly see any Spanish number plates in Portugal, not even in the border regions, and when you do, they are likely to be from Portuguese ex-pats.


----------



## Verso

Portugal and Spain must be exceptions then (and the French, they only drive in France and French-speaking areas of neighbouring countries ).


----------



## Road_UK

Verso said:


> Portugal and Spain must be exceptions then (and the French, they only drive in France and French-speaking areas of neighbouring countries ).


Not in Spain in the summer. Not even in Portugal in the summer. One major traffic-jam from San Sebastian all the way to Bordeaux. All French.

Lots of French about here in Mayrhofen at the moment. All mainly from Strasbourg and Colmar, but the number plates are there. And then of course all the French workers crossing the border everyday into Basel, Switzerland, Karlsruhe, Kehl and Freiburg, Germany, Luxembourg and Kortrijk, Belgium. Apparently, French wages are not at all that attractive, a lot of them, do work across the border of their neigbouring countries.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Penn's Woods said:


> This is the sort of thing that surprises me: even with Schengen, and the end of the Cold War (which wasn't relevant to Spain and Portugal anyway - I mean they weren't on opposite sides) and the Euro, are European countries really that disconnected from their neighbors? Of course, that's a generalization, and of course the people on this very forum would suggest otherwise. But I'd think there'd be plenty of Portuguese people day-tripping or shopping or whatever in nearby areas of Spain. And vice versa.
> 
> One Friday during my summer of study in France, someone on the university staff told me one Friday she was going away for the weekend. I asked, "Where?" and she said, "I don't know; maybe England, maybe Germany - I'll just take the first train." 26 years later I still remember that conversation: I envied her and envy you all for having so much cultural, linguistic and historic diversity within reach. If I ever became independently wealthy, I'd just move to Paris or Brussels or some place for a year or two and alternate between enjoying the city and exploring the country and continent....


The Portuguese-Spanish border was pretty closed before fascism fell on both sides, the governments of both countries disliked each other immensely, and people were shot if attempting to cross illegally. It wasn't as bad as the Iron Curtain, people could cross with authorisation. Many Portuguese people crossed it illegally to go to France, they would cross over the mountains from Portugal to Spain, or swim, go through Spain somehow and then walk across the Pyrenees where French taxi drivers waited. The Spanish used to arrest Portuguese people illegally crossing but ended up giving up because the Portuguese secret police always freed them into Portugal, where they just tried again.

Another factor is that there aren't many locals on either side of the border. Most of the border is in pretty sparsely populated areas, then again, nowhere in Mainland Portugal is that far from Spain, Figueira is about as far as you can get and its 2 hours 20 mins from the border (Vilar Formoso, been there many times) and 5 hours or so from Madrid, which I've never been to. Also, Portuguese people are broke and have no money for daytripping, and when they do, they normally stay within Portugal, unless they end up near Spain, then they cross to by fuel and everything else except for dairy products, which are more expensive than in Portugal but thats it.



Road_UK said:


> You do see a lot of Portuguese day trippers in Spain. Spanish border towns have set up large shopping areas for visiting Portuguese - mainly due to attractive prices, and on the Portuguese motorway heading up towards the Spanish city of Vigo, Spanish shopping malls advertise their products (in Spanish only!)
> 
> You hardly see any Spanish number plates in Portugal, not even in the border regions, and when you do, they are likely to be from Portuguese ex-pats.


But they are right on the border, and are for the Portuguese locals on the other side, and they don't need the signs.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Road_UK said:


> Not in Spain in the summer. Not even in Portugal in the summer. One major traffic-jam from San Sebastian all the way to Bordeaux. All French.
> 
> .


All Portuguese or Morrocan people that live in France, and that traffic jam ends up in Figueira sometimes (on the sea and easy to get to from Spain):lol:


----------



## CNGL

DanielFigFoz said:


> I thought that this sign was interesting. I'm going to take a wild guess about what the sign on the other side of the river says


That sign should include an E01 in it.
This is the very last exit of E90/A-5 before the border:
http://maps.google.es/maps?ll=38.886122,-7.023568&spn=0,0.038495&z=15&layer=c&cbll=38.886066,-7.023821&panoid=NZk8g31Au5FkeVyZAOVS6Q&cbp=12,248.94,,0,-4.92

I would have signed A-6 instead of A-5. But I guess what says on the last exit in Portugal: Espanha .


----------



## alserrod

DanielFigFoz said:


> The Portuguese-Spanish border was pretty closed before fascism fell on both sides, the governments of both countries disliked each other immensely, and people were shot if attempting to cross illegally. It wasn't as bad as the Iron Curtain, people could cross with authorisation.



I have just write a post about a border which never existed even in this Age, but it is the real exception.

Not only the Portuguese-Spanish border was closed because fascism governments... but all Spanish borders which includes the one to Andorra, France (the most controlled), Gibraltar-Great Britain (absolutely closed to traffic) and Morocco (and... some African countries while the colonies period).

It was possible to cross the border but not easy. Even from Spain there was a direct flight Madrid-Moscow (when it was the opposite type of government and the "enemy").

Checks at borders were made always and ... not only there was not a culture of mobility but... there was a culture of being just inside of your country.

In the case of Spain, to avoid people going out of the country, they invented the Identity card. So then, it was mandatory for everyone and you will be identified at any case... but allowed only inside Spain.
Spanish government gived only passports to those citizens allowed to go out of the country. So then... most of people had Id. card but not a passport and... if you went to a border (or at the airport)... no passport, no exit of the country.

Furthermore, for a lot of years they made special zones near the border where only citizens who lived there could move with no problem. There were (specially after the civil war) too many controls on roads and if your identity card didn´t said you lived near there, you may require a special visa to go there. 
That visa was not for crossing the border (only allowed with passport) but only to approach it!!!!!! and you could go to prison if moving near the border (about 30-40 km...!!!) without the specific visa.

Portuguese-Spanish border was controlled but French-Spanish border was more, more controlled.

Spanish government knew that if someone went illegally to Portugal... he will return back (and upside down), but after the second world war, the border with France meaned the way to freedom.
Between Portugal and Spain happened something like between Argentina and Chile later...


Nevertheless, borders were not closed... Spanish government was interested in emigration to Europe (France and Germany were the main destinations) because the poverty of the country. 
They allowed to go out, to return back, but they checked always in which countries you had been (looking at your visas in the passports), baggage, etc... and, of course WHO was crossing the border.


This is why road signals point only the country, not the city. It was as living inside the wall... and they pointed anywhere outside that wall.

Spain had, for maybe about 8 years only ONE foreing embassy at Madrid (Argentinan embassy) and international isolation was full.




Many, many years later... the Identity card not only still exists but... it is used by all citizens. It is very useful. Dimentions like a credit card, easy to take in your pocket, very difficult to fake and last innovations are in order of electronid Id.Card (with a chip and a password). A lot of administrations, entreprises, banks... apart of their security system, they allow it (they have both security systems... the own one and the public one).


Identity card is allowed to go to any European Union or country of Schengen treaty. In some countries they could be very strange because not used to see... but it is legal (and it is part of the treaty... a national identity must be enough to move abroad).

In my case... my passport expired some years ago and have not requested a new one...


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I had no idea Spain under Franco was so closed. Interesting.
But still, that was some time ago....


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^I had no idea Spain under Castro was so closed. Interesting.
> But still, that was some time ago....


Castro? That geek from Cuba? When did he ever close Spain? 

That with America joining the EU... that was a joke, you know that, right? :lol:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Castro? That geek from Cuba? When did he ever close Spain?
> 
> That with America joining the EU... that was a joke, you know that, right? :lol:


Ooops! I thought I was saying something wrong, but couldn't figure out what. I'll fix it.

But you didn't react to my response about the US joining the EU. Something about taking it over and annoying the French.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^I had no idea Spain under Franco was so closed. Interesting.
> But still, that was some time ago....


I remember stories about people going camping in Spain in the 1960's, back then tourism was almost pristine along the now over-touristic coastal areas.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^I had no idea Spain under Franco was so closed. Interesting.
> But still, that was some time ago....


Portugal was the same, it was all about staying in Portugal or its Empire, it was much more open for foreigners than for Portuguese people. 

It wasn't that long ago, the parents of kids my age can still remember it well, and many don't leave much. The Portguese regime fell in 1974 and the Spanish in 1975, but that was much more gradual and strange than in Portugal. 

Interestingly enough, in 1968 my mother who is coloured (in the SA sense) and lived in a mainly white household in Mozambique was allowed into SA twice with no passport! Although that was only for one day each (and the other way) as the boat stopped in Cape Town and Durban. She said that people from Madeira were not allowed out becasue they would not come back and the Portuguese didn't want them to leave.

Most Portuguese people complain to each other but not to the relevant authorities, because they couldn't do that under fascism and people felt hopeless and they still do now, even though they could change things. This will be different for my generation though


----------



## rorise1

First time I saw the sign I was a little stuck. I didn't know where to start.

Quiz : On what island you will find this sign?


----------



## alserrod

Something about History.

Sorry because off-topic but I try to give further information.

Spain got on a civil war in 1936 (this monday, July 18th, will be the 75th anniversary) and finished in 1939, having as a result, a fascist government for 36 years.

On the second world war Spain didn't take part but... was not declared neutral never. In fact... they requested volunteers to go to fight against Russia in the called as the "Blue Unit".

After second world war, every country gave back to Spain because its possition while the war.
No foreing embassies where present at Madrid and, when Argentina opened its one, the ambassor was received... such if you receive a president of a big country or similar.

In the 1950s, no relations existed between Spain and "the rest of the world". People transit was not banned. People with passport (I explained that not everyone had a passport) could go abroad, as well as anyone from the Western Europe and a lot of other countries could enter the country with no problem.

But, in fact, there was no commerce to outside, no international relations were stablished... and Spain lived as in a "bubble".


It has been commented tourism in the 1960s. It is not casual!!!!.
In december 1959, US president Eisenhower visited Spain and began a new period, opening to other countries. Some countries started to open embassies and international commerce began.
In Spain, movements to foreing as an emigrant began.

This is why exactly Spain started receiving tourism in the 1960s and not before. Before... it was possible, but international relations recommended to go to any other country. In the 1960s Spain was not the country of today. It was in development and had not the infrastructure that has today for tourism. They had the enough infrastructure for local tourism only (and today... in summer the country should receive 150% visitors compared with local population!!!!)

In the 1970s, Russia and Spain accorded to open embassies, and later all communist countries too. It was very strange at Madrid. Communist party was banned and it was a political delit being part of it. No symbols about communism where allowed, so then, having the flag of USSR public in its embassy was so strange!!!!.

They are too many curious situations. For example, one double football match between Yugoslavia and Spain. Citizens where banned in both countries... and it was France who entered to be able to have both matches. Players visas to enter in both countries were made in the French embassy at Madrid and Belgrado together and they were invited to go there if some problem.
It was the first relation between Spain and a communist country.



But... according to the thread... signal on roads. They are pointing countries. But... it is similar as if they point "anywhere outside Spain". It is an old tradition that, very, very slowly it is being changed.
New international motorways have no customs cabins, but still is used to indicate the country. Just new ones indicates the city instead of the country.


It is a reason made a lot of years ago that, no one have take enough care to change.


----------



## Verso

New signs in Italy (I was hoping for Benetke ):









http://www.primorski.it/stories/trst/192795/


----------



## ea1969

rorise1 said:


> Quiz : On what island you will find this sign?


Thasos, Greece.


----------



## rorise1

ea1969 said:


> Thasos, Greece.


:applause:

Right!


----------



## ea1969

^^
I have just noticed the telephone numbers 2593...


----------



## zsimi80

Long names  Besztercebánya (Hungarian name) - Banska Bystrica (Slovak)





Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## bogdymol

^^ This bilingual name should have been posted on 2 rows!


----------



## Palance

Macedonicus said:


> This is road-sign in Albania where the places are written in 3 languages (Albanian, Macedonian latin and Macedonian cyrilic)


Since when is Macedonian used in Albania? That is new for me.



shpirtkosova said:


> In Kosovo we have 5-7% Serbian minority and we have Serbian as a second official language.


Thank God. I can read Serbian, but unfortunately no Albanian. If I were to visit Kosovo (I hope to do so once) I can at last read the signs 




shpirtkosova said:


> In FYR of Macedonia you have 25-30% Albanian so in fairness the second official language should be Albanian. I think FYR Macedonians add the English just to avoid having to put Albanian signs.


I have found this picture of a sign in Skopje which contains Albanian

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/684/dscf8906.jpg/


----------



## alserrod

At Andorra... about only 11.000 peoplen are Andorran. The rest... up to more than 70.000 people are from a lot of nationalities. Mainly Spanish and French... but also Portuguese.

In fact, those three countries have embassies at Andorra (it could be considered normal to have the French and Spanish one because country with border... but Portugal is far away and have an embassy, not a consulate).
About five or six countries more have consulates (depending from embassies at Madrid or Paris), and a lot of countries give the representation to the consulate at Toulouse or at Barcelona.

Anyway, the number of foreing citizens is very big... and, all, all, all signals are only in Catalan, the only official language in the country. Names are very similar to Spanish and French (and when they point the name of a city, place, etc... no need to be translated), but only one language used and no problem to understand it.


----------



## Christophorus

shpirtkosova said:


> ... In FYR of Macedonia you have 25-30% Albanian so in fairness the second official language should be Albanian. I think FYR Macedonians add the English just to avoid having to put Albanian signs.


As far as i know, in so called bilingual areas of FYROM all signs have to be in Albanian also (enforced by EU after the albanian insurgency in 2001).



Palance said:


> Since when is Macedonian used in Albania? That is new for me.


There is a small slavic minority in the Pogradec (as Pogradec is a name with slavic origin) area at the Ohrid-Lake, more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania#Demographics


----------



## Nima-Farid

In some parts of Iran near Astara there are trilingual signs: 
Persian
English
Russian (Azerbaijan was one time part of USSR) and I saw some russian trucks in that area.


----------



## Nima-Farid

Extra Post


----------



## Nima-Farid

A persian Russian English sign in Bilesavar (The blue one)


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## Penn's Woods

Nima-Farid said:


> In some parts of Iran near Astara there are trilingual signs:
> Persian
> English
> Russian (Azerbaijan was one time part of USSR) and I saw some russian trucks in that area.


I'm surprised Arabic's not more important in Iran?


----------



## Nima-Farid

Arabic is not used on directional signs at all. Only some arabic famous religeous slogans!!!


----------



## alserrod

At Spain some advice signals about recommendations for trucks, fire danger, etc... are in several languages but not standard.
This is... they will appear in Spanish and English. Should the region has another official language it will appear too... and it can appear in French, German, Portuguese, etc... usually depending of the most usually traffic there.


----------



## Palance

Penn's Woods said:


> I'm surprised Arabic's not more important in Iran?


Why surprised? Arabic and Persian (Farsi) are different languages.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Palance said:


> Why surprised? Arabic and Persian (Farsi) are different languages.


I'm surprised, in view of Arabic's importance in that part of the world, that it wouldn't be as important as a second (or third) language as Russian is.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Iran's a huge country, probably less linguistically influenced by Arabic, although Nima can confirm or correct me I'm sure


----------



## Hanno1983

Corvinus said:


> On Corsica island, city names generally are indicated in French and Corsican.
> French names are often sprayed over.


Well, "French" names on Corsica in fact are mostly Italian names.


----------



## Nima-Farid

DanielFigFoz said:


> Iran's a huge country, probably less linguistically influenced by Arabic, although Nima can confirm or correct me I'm sure


That is correct. Iran is a very diverse country speaking of language. First is Farsi (Persian) (60%), Second Azeri (As in Azerbaijan) (25%) third is Kurdish (10%) and Arabic alongside Baluchi is the fourth language (each 2%). Total population is 75 million.
Iran was influenced by arabic a lot in the old days. The reason why Iran wasn't influeced that much by arabic language in the modern times is because arabs were controled by turks, France was powerful so Iran was more influenced by French (19th and first half of 20th) and Farsi and Persian culture is an strong culture which was an influencer rather than influenced. It influenced Central Asian countries, Indian subcontinent Countries and Caucaus countries. Hope that clarify everything


----------



## Corvinus

Hanno1983 said:


> Well, "French" names on Corsica in fact are mostly Italian names.


Indeed :cheers:










This one was on the way from Calvi to Ajaccio, on _Col de Vizzavona_.


----------



## x-type

how do French say for Ajaccio: [aʒaksjo'] or like in Italian [aja'tʃo]?


----------



## Corvinus

They use the French-style pronunciation, so "[aʒaksjo']". The city is regularly included in the weather forecast in mainland France media as well, so as to represent Corsica.


----------



## Godius

*Frisian / Dutch*

Here an example of a Dutch/Frisian sign in the Netherlands (Fryslan):


----------



## alserrod

Cannot find the photo at google but today in the N-II near my city I found a signal about do not throw lit cigarrettes in Portuguese, Dutch and German.

I suppose I missed the one before in Spanish, French and English.

The question is why not in Italian... the most important number of tourist in the city is Italian... but this road depends of the ministry (if depending of the municipality, be sure that only in English and Italian, according with number of visitors).

And the second question is... the road was the N-II and has parallel the A-2 free tolled. All long trips will cross A-2. The road I took is used only for a industry area and some villages... but they have signals in several languages!!!!!!


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## alserrod

A signal in a French road very near to Spanish border at Aragon.

Signal was only in French but later they added Spanish translation.

http://maps.google.es/?ll=42.867425...OvsL8Zg8F71rQdL0u6LEYQ&cbp=12,269.15,,1,18.24


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## alserrod

alserrod said:


> Cannot find the photo at google but today in the N-II near my city I found a signal about do not throw lit cigarrettes in Portuguese, Dutch and German.
> 
> I suppose I missed the one before in Spanish, French and English.
> 
> The question is why not in Italian... the most important number of tourist in the city is Italian... but this road depends of the ministry (if depending of the municipality, be sure that only in English and Italian, according with number of visitors).
> 
> And the second question is... the road was the N-II and has parallel the A-2 free tolled. All long trips will cross A-2. The road I took is used only for a industry area and some villages... but they have signals in several languages!!!!!!






Have found!!!!!


Here in Spanish, English and French

http://maps.google.es/?ll=41.647126...wufbPOVZBJ7SHVb1SwIfQA&cbp=12,124.26,,0,19.37

a little later in German, Dutch and Portuguese

http://maps.google.es/?ll=41.646605...x7jiQkLlVap-LF_g8pUSNw&cbp=12,168.48,,0,22.39


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## Hanno1983

Are their bilingual place-name signs on Mallorca island?
I heard about it but cannot remember. When visited Mallorca in 1999 I only saw signs in Catalan, not in Spanish at the entrances of villages and towns.
I don't know about road names in towns.


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## DarkLoki

There is no dutch on that sign. Looks like a romance language to me.


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## ChrisZwolle

Italian.


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## Advancer

Some years a go I was on vacation in the area around Roquebrune-sur-Argens but on entering the village I saw that It also had a non-french name Rocobruno or something like that , I assume it is italian , I find that interesting because the village isn't particular close to Italy.
Edit:
I already found it, it's Occitan


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## alserrod

Hanno1983 said:


> Are their bilingual place-name signs on Mallorca island?
> I heard about it but cannot remember. When visited Mallorca in 1999 I only saw signs in Catalan, not in Spanish at the entrances of villages and towns.
> I don't know about road names in towns.




In any site of Spain there is an only one "official" name for towns, cities, streets, etc...

The general criteria is to use the official name only. And at Balearic Islands they are official only in Catalan.

This changes several things too. For example... Spain are 17 autonomous regions (and 2 autonomous cities). The official name for this region es "Illes Balears" and now you will see it in a lot of international maps.
Island names are the same except Ibiza, which official name is Eivissa.

Airport name is also in Catalan: Son Sant Joan (something like "The St. John's")


----------



## Hanno1983

alserrod said:


> In any site of Spain there is an only one "official" name for towns, cities, streets, etc...
> 
> The general criteria is to use the official name only. And at Balearic Islands they are official only in Catalan.
> 
> This changes several things too. For example... Spain are 17 autonomous regions (and 2 autonomous cities). The official name for this region es "Illes Balears" and now you will see it in a lot of international maps.
> Island names are the same except Ibiza, which official name is Eivissa.
> 
> Airport name is also in Catalan: Son Sant Joan (something like "The St. John's")


Thank you very much for your answer.
Your description is identical to my memories about Mallorca.
But in the Comunitat Valenciana I remember a very mixed linguistic situation. I saw signs in Catalan (Valencian) despite (older?) signs in Spanish and bilingual signs.


----------



## alserrod

Hanno1983 said:


> Thank you very much for your answer.
> Your description is identical to my memories about Mallorca.
> But in the Comunitat Valenciana I remember a very mixed linguistic situation. I saw signs in Catalan (Valencian) despite (older?) signs in Spanish and bilingual signs.



"Comunitat Valenciana" is also in Catalan (in Spanish will be "Comunidad Valenciana"). 
Unique names apply also there. 
A different thing is that at Catalonia you will see road signals always in Catalan, most of them at Balearic Islands but bilingual at C.Valenciana.


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## Hanno1983

alserrod said:


> "Comunitat Valenciana" is also in Catalan (in Spanish will be "Comunidad Valenciana").
> Unique names apply also there.
> A different thing is that at Catalonia you will see road signals always in Catalan, most of them at Balearic Islands but bilingual at C.Valenciana.


So did I understand right that there are bilingual signs in the Valencia Region even though Spanish ones aren't official?


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## alserrod

When I say "official" is only referred to a "name" (steet, city, etc...).

A signal about warning it is not official and SHOULD be bilingual at least (or having a picture very clear).

In most of cases inside Spain you will find the "official" name of the city even if it is not used there. This is, cities from Basque country, north Navarra, Galicia, Catalonia, C.Valenciana, etc... will appear in their own language everywhere (and all maps will have only that name or bilingual).
In those regions, cities located outside their territories will be in the official name, even if they have a translation.


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## DanielFigFoz

http://maps.google.com/?ll=52.725845,-2.018287&spn=0.003132,0.010568&t=m&z=17&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=52.725972,-2.018229&panoid=bxNiijxLzE9M3adEOP_lxA&cbp=12,239.92,,1,8.86

In Cannock, in the West Midlands Urban Area


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## Hanno1983

alserrod said:


> When I say "official" is only referred to a "name" (steet, city, etc...).
> 
> A signal about warning it is not official and SHOULD be bilingual at least (or having a picture very clear).
> 
> In most of cases inside Spain you will find the "official" name of the city even if it is not used there. This is, cities from Basque country, north Navarra, Galicia, Catalonia, C.Valenciana, etc... will appear in their own language everywhere (and all maps will have only that name or bilingual).
> In those regions, cities located outside their territories will be in the official name, even if they have a translation.


OK. But what about cities signed "Xàbia/Jávea" in the Comunitat Valenciana? Are both names official?


----------



## aswnl

DanielFigFoz said:


> http://maps.google.com/?ll=52.725845,-2.018287&spn=0.003132,0.010568&t=m&z=17&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=52.725972,-2.018229&panoid=bxNiijxLzE9M3adEOP_lxA&cbp=12,239.92,,1,8.86
> 
> In Cannock, in the West Midlands Urban Area


That's nothing special. On the continent you'll find signs in English directing to allied cemetaries.
http://maps.google.nl/maps?q=cemeta...id=DQ_wUaD8cNYTRbZ8yDGV8g&cbp=12,10.3,,2,5.51


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## alserrod

Hanno1983 said:


> OK. But what about cities signed "Xàbia/Jávea" in the Comunitat Valenciana? Are both names official?




Wow!, the topic is difficult to explain...

Let's resume: official name is... BOTH.

This is, in any official document it must appear "Jávea / Xàbia" (in this order and with the / between them).

This are, for example, results for municipality elections last may in the Spanish Interior ministry web page

http://elecciones.mir.es/resultados2011/99MU/DMU1703908299_L1.htm?d=936&e=0


At Navarra there are too some towns and cities with a bilingual official name. For example, official name of Pampelune is "Pamplona - Iruñea".


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ So it's like Biel/Bienne


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## Penn's Woods

But also - if I understand correctly - there are areas of the Comunitat Valenciana (away from the coast) *and* of Navarra (the south and east) which are completely Castilian-speaking, and only Castilian is official in those areas.

There's a fascinating site, on this sort of thing, for those who read French. Here are the relevant pages:

http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/europe/espagnevalencien.htm
http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/europe/espagnenavarre.htm


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## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> But also - if I understand correctly - there are areas of the Comunitat Valenciana (away from the coast) *and* of Navarra (the south and east) which are completely Castilian-speaking, and only Castilian is official in those areas.



Yeah (I must say I am not sure).

For example, Tudela (second Navarra city, located in the south) is in the not-Basque speaking area. Translation would be Tutera but I have never read it in signals.

I should have to check but as far as I know, the only name for that city is Tudela, even when it has a translation to the second official language in his region.


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## Cicerón

Penn's Woods said:


> But also - if I understand correctly - there are areas of the Comunitat Valenciana (away from the coast) *and* of Navarra (the south and east) which are completely Castilian-speaking, and only Castilian is official in those areas.
> 
> There's a fascinating site, on this sort of thing, for those who read French. Here are the relevant pages:
> 
> http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/europe/espagnevalencien.htm
> http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/europe/espagnenavarre.htm


You're right. Yes, it's a mess. Here comes another of my long posts, for those who are interested:

First of all, the current autonomous region called Comunitat Valenciana does not match up with the old Kingdom of Valencia. For instance, the _comarca_ (region) of Requena-Utiel was taken from Castile in the 19th century when the provinces were made. Caudet/Caudete, which had traditionally been part of the Kingdom of Valencia, was left outside the province of Alicante.

Here is a map showing the borders in 1340:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...1340.png/767px-Señorío_de_Villena_en_1340.png
(Jumilla became a part of the Crown of Castile in 1358)

Second, some _comarcas_ of the Kingdom of Valencia were repopulated during the Reconquista with Castilian-speaking and Aragonese-speaking peoples from Aragon, called _xurros_ in Valencian/Catalan. These _comarcas _are therefore called _comarques xurres_ or _comarcas churras_:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...50px-Localització_de_les_comarques_xurres.png


Regarding Navarre, there are in fact many areas (in fact most of the region) where Basque is not spoken. In some areas (for instance, the area around Tudela or the northern riverside of the Ebro) it has never been spoken, while in other areas it was lost centuries ago (for instance the area around Pamplona/Iruña). Funnyly enough, Basque was spoken during the middle ages in the Oja Valley, located in my region, La Rioja (whose name comes precisely from Río Oja - Oja River), and even the Tirón Valley in the province of Burgos. This is because these valleys were repopulated with Basques during the Reconquista. Fortunately, these areas are not claimed by the same Basque nationalists who want the never-Basque-speaking city of Tudela in Navarre.


Something similar happens in Biscay (yes, you read it right!) and Álava/Araba. In the first, there are some municipalities in the westernmost Encartaciones which have never been Basque speaking: Valmaseda, Lanestosa, Trucios, Carranza and Arcentales. Those municipalities are in fact quite close to the core of the Kingdom of Castile, i.e., the Valley of Mena. However, their official names are sometimes only the ones which are adapted to the Basque spelling, sometimes both versions: Balmaseda, Lanestosa, Trucios-Turtzioz, Valle de Carranza-Karrantza Harana and Artzentales.


In Álava/Araba, there are three different parts: 
1) From Vitoria-Gasteiz to the North, which is Basque-speaking and Basque-looking, i.e. hamlets on green hills. 2) From Vitoria-Gasteiz to the Sierra de Cantabria (not to be confused with the Cantabrian Mountains), where Basque still lasted several centuries. And 3) From the Sierra de Cantabria to the Ebro river, where Basque is not spoken at all, but nevertheless some official names contain the Basque version or if there is none, the adapted-to-the-Basque-spelling version: Villabuena de Álava/Eskuernaga, Yécora/Iekora, Oyón-Oion, Lanciego/Lantziego and Baños de Ebro/Mañueta.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

aswnl said:


> That's nothing special. On the continent you'll find signs in English directing to allied cemetaries.
> http://maps.google.nl/maps?q=cemeta...id=DQ_wUaD8cNYTRbZ8yDGV8g&cbp=12,10.3,,2,5.51


Yes but on the continet a lot of people can speak English


----------



## aswnl

Those signs are not meant for all people...


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## BND

Bilingual sign in Slovakia (not official, unfortunately...):


----------



## Qwert

Interesting idea.









http://ujszo.com/online/kozelet/2011/10/16/ketnyelvu-utjelzo-tabla-dunaszerdahelynel-fotokkal


----------



## veteran

BND said:


> Bilingual sign in Slovakia (not official, unfortunately...):


Not official (fortunately) and illegal 

This table has several problems.

1. Wrong parameters - font, shape of arrows - contrary to the norm.
2. This "sign" doesn't stand 500 meters before junction 
3. It is a violation of system of the established junction signage - 500 m, 200 m, 0 m.
4. Bilinguality on directional signs in Slovakia is not allowed. Why? It's simple. More text = small font. Small font = low readability. This "sign" must be absolutely unreadable on 90 km/h speed.
5. Inscription Dunajská Streda/Dunaszerdahely - to which the arrow it belongs? 
How can I find out (when going to Dunajská Streda) if I should continue straight or turn right?

This "sign" is only provocative bullshit made by one "association of vandals" which fight for bilingual Southern-Slovakia. They e. g. put stickers on shop-windows where isn't placed text in Hungarian and cause the owners of such shops many problems. hno:


----------



## Nordic20T

---


----------



## seem

^^ There are many of these but you won't find a single (well there is that one) sign with directions in both languages. 

We have even some German ones, but these might be a thing of the past soon as the German community is dying out -










I think there are just about 10 villages with German signs..


----------



## BND

veteran said:


> Not official (fortunately) and illegal
> 
> This table has several problems.
> 
> 1. Wrong parameters - font, shape of arrows - contrary to the norm.
> 2. This "sign" doesn't stand 500 meters before junction
> 3. It is a violation of system of the established junction signage - 500 m, 200 m, 0 m.
> 4. Bilinguality on directional signs in Slovakia is not allowed. Why? It's simple. More text = small font. Small font = low readability. This "sign" must be absolutely unreadable on 90 km/h speed.
> 5. Inscription Dunajská Streda/Dunaszerdahely - to which the arrow it belongs?
> How can I find out (when going to Dunajská Streda) if I should continue straight or turn right?
> 
> This "sign" is only provocative bullshit made by one "association of vandals" which fight for bilingual Southern-Slovakia. They e. g. put stickers on shop-windows where isn't placed text in Hungarian and cause the owners of such shops many problems. hno:


This is BS, and I'm sure you know it too. Of course, this sign is not official, its purpose is to raise interest on the topic. Readable bilingual signs have already been invented, take a look at Slovenia, Italy, Finland, etc. It's strange that the Slovaks find it so outrageous when the Hungarians living there want to signs in their mother tongue too (about 10% of the whole population, mostly living in Southern Slovakia).


----------



## Verso

Are there any bilingual directional signs in Hungary? I can't remember seeing them (of course that doesn't mean they don't exist).


----------



## Nordic20T

---


----------



## veteran

BND said:


> Readable bilingual signs have already been invented, take a look at Slovenia, Italy, Finland, etc.


Yes? Something like this? Come on! This is readable sign?



BND said:


> It's strange that the Slovaks find it so outrageous when the Hungarians living there want to signs in their mother tongue too (about 10% of the whole population, mostly living in Southern Slovakia).


We have bilingual signage:









This is IMHO enough. For who is bilinguality on direction signs good? In maps are written only official names of villages/cities (=Slovak names). Hungarian names of villages in Southern-Sloavkia are not official names.


----------



## Nordic20T

@veteran
Please specify the source of a pic when it's not taken by you. 

In my opinion the bilingual village signs are enough, life doesn't need to be made more complicated with these crowded direction signs.


----------



## zsimi80

Offtopic:

Slovaks can't accept that Hungarians are living in their country (10%), and cant't accept either that Slovakia's territory was part of Hungary for 1000 years. This is the reason why they don't like Hungarian names, language, signs etc...


----------



## Verso

veteran said:


> Yes? Something like this? Come on! This is readable sign?


They should add Lubiana and Fiume.


----------



## Qwert

Last time I've checked Hungary didn't have multilingual signs for domestic towns as well. Anyway, I wonder on what basis we would choose the names on the sings.

Should only towns where majority of inhabitants are Hungarians be bilingually signed? In this case Bratislava should be signed in Slovak only.

Should all signs be bilingual? Even somewhere in northern Slovakia where no minorities live?

Should only sings in municipalities with Hungarian majority be bilingual? This would lead to incoherence in signage as one municipality may have Hungarian majority and neighbouring one Slovak.

And why only bilingual? We have many minorities. There is at least as much Gypsies as Hungarians for example. We have also Ruthenians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Poles, Germans etc. Should there be signs in all those languages?

What would be pros and cons of introduction of bilingual sings?

Cons:
Costs of the replacement of the sings.
Worse readability.
Possible mess in signage, depending on which one of the above criteria we would use.

Pros:
???


----------



## veteran

Verso said:


> They should add Lubiana and Fiume.


Laibach is missing


----------



## zsimi80

Qwert said:


> Last time I've checked Hungary didn't have multilingual signs for domestic towns as well. Anyway, I wonder on what basis we would choose the names on the sings.
> 
> Should only towns where majority of inhabitants are Hungarians be bilingually signed? In this case Bratislava should be signed in Slovak only.
> 
> Should all signs be bilingual? Even somewhere in northern Slovakia where no minorities live?
> 
> Should only sings in municipalities with Hungarian majority be bilingual? This would lead to incoherence in signage as one municipality may have Hungarian majority and neighbouring one Slovak.
> 
> And why only bilingual? We have many minorities. There is at least as much Gypsies as Hungarians for example. We have also Ruthenians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Poles, Germans etc. Should there be signs in all those languages?
> 
> What would be pros and cons of introduction of bilingual sings?
> 
> Cons:
> Costs of the replacement of the sings.
> Worse readability.
> Possible mess in signage, depending on which one of the above criteria we would use.
> 
> Pros:
> ???




It is up to You


----------



## MattiG

*Northern Finland and Norway*

The set of languages spoken in the Northern Finland and Norway is somewhat complicated. Finnish and Norwegian are the major languages, but the Sami languages are spoken, too. About ten languages belonging to the Sami family of languages are alive in Sweden, Finland, Norway, and Russia. There are areas where the majority of people are native Sami speakers. The written form of Sami varies across the languages. To increase complexity, there are minorities speaking an old form of Finnish in Norway. That language, Kven, is nowadays classified as a separate language from Finnish.

Finland follows a principle to show no more than two languages for a single destination in the signs. This approach is somewhat problematic if more than two languages are to be shown. There some trilingual signs built of bilingual names:










This is the intersection of roads 4/E75 and 92 in Finland. Utsjoki/Ohcejohka and Karigasniemi/Gáregasnjárga are situated in Finland, and the names are shown in Finnish and in Sami. Kaarasjoki/Karasjok (in Norway) is shown in Finnish and in Norwegian. The Sami name Kárášjohka is not shown even if 80% of people in that municipality are native Sami speakers. Finally, the name Nordkapp/Kahppa is shown in Norwegian and in Sami.










This a trilingual sign, too. The topmost names Kirkkoniemi/Kirkenes are in Finnish and in Norwegian. The remaining signs display the names in Finnish and in Sami.










After crossing the language barrier, the Sami name of Sevettijärvi changes.










Norway struggles with the same issue. This a trilingual sign in Karasjok showing Sami/Norwegian and Finnish/Sami (Ivalo/Avveel). 










Here, the Sami name of Ivalo is Avvil, not Avveel.

(Images by Google Maps)


----------



## Christophorus

Če'vetjäu´rr 

Great usage of latin letters! And i even have a thoght how it sounds


----------



## Palance

Trilingual signs in northern Norway


----------



## Alex_ZR

Multilingual sign at the entrance of Zrenjanin, Serbia:










From above:
-Serbian (Cyrillic)
-Serbian (Latin)
-Hungarian
-Slovak
-Romanian
Reason is that all these language are in use in city administration.


----------



## seem

BND said:


> Bilingual sign in Slovakia (not official, unfortunately...):


This sign was removed yesterday by SSC.


----------



## Verso

Alex_ZR said:


> Multilingual sign at the entrance of Zrenjanin, Serbia:


Wow. I think Vojvodina is a good example of different ethnicities living together in peace.


----------



## bogdymol

seem said:


> This sign was removed yesterday by *SSC*.


SSC = skyscrapercity.com


----------



## Verso

Who was it? Veteran?


----------



## x-type

yesterday i was traveling with a friend of mine (Slovenian) around Koper and i asked him if anybody used the term "Pulj" on that funny trilingual sign in Slovenia (Pulj/Pula/Pola) and the answer was "no" (with silly laughing)


----------



## Qwert

bogdymol said:


> SSC = skyscrapercity.com


SSC stands for Slovenská správa ciest - Slovak Road Administration. :lol:

www.ssc.sk/en/About-us.ssc


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> yesterday i was traveling with a friend of mine (Slovenian) around Koper and i asked him if anybody used the term "Pulj" on that funny trilingual sign in Slovenia (Pulj/Pula/Pola) and the answer was "no" (with silly laughing)


That's because Pula sounds more Slovenian than Pulj. :hammer:


----------



## Christophorus

Alex_ZR said:


> Multilingual sign at the entrance of Zrenjanin, Serbia:


Not bad at all, just to add "Groß Betschkerek" and we will have some good old times back


----------



## Hanno1983

veteran said:


> This is IMHO enough. For who is bilinguality on direction signs good? In maps are written only official names of villages/cities (=Slovak names). Hungarian names of villages in Southern-Sloavkia are not official names.


Well, I see no problem to give Hungarian names of towns and villages an official status in areas with mainly Hugarian speaking population.
The very important question behind this point is whether the state should serve his citizens (all citizens unlike their mother tongue) or citizens should serve the state (including give up their mother tongue).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

One of the worst things that can happen to signage is bilinguality. Sometimes it is necessary because of different writing systems, but it adds to clutter. Signs do preferably have no more than six destinations on them. With two languages, this reduces the amount of destinations to three. Especially at complicated situations, the last thing you want is a load of clutter due to bilingual signs. Signage needs to be pragmatic and above language politics as in Ireland or Belgium.


----------



## Palance

ChrisZwolle said:


> One of the worst things that can happen to signage is bilinguality. ..... Especially at complicated situations, the last thing you want is a load of clutter due to bilingual signs.


Let's use the well-known Belgian example here again:


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^As I've said before, there are other problems with that sign. (Four destinations on the pull-through, for starters.)


----------



## viedumonde

4 languages 4 scripts

All the road signs in New Delhi district are given in 4 languages of 4 completely different scripts. 
Hindi English Punjabi and Urdu


----------



## CNGL

^^ :crazy: It must be a waste of time looking for the correct script you know...



Qwert said:


> SSC stands for Slovenská správa ciest - Slovak Road Administration. :lol:
> 
> www.ssc.sk/en/About-us.ssc


Well, I laughed when I discovered that our volleyball league shares its acronym with a well-known town in Spanish forums.


----------



## zsimi80

seem said:


> This sign was removed yesterday by SSC.


Congratulations. hno:


----------



## viedumonde

> It must be a waste of time looking for the correct script you know...


Haha.. it doesnt happen. We automatically look at the script we know. And many people in delhi know atleast 3 of these 4 scripts.


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> One of the worst things that can happen to signage is bilinguality. Sometimes it is necessary because of different writing systems, but it adds to clutter. Signs do preferably have no more than six destinations on them. With two languages, this reduces the amount of destinations to three. Especially at complicated situations, the last thing you want is a load of clutter due to bilingual signs. Signage needs to be pragmatic and above language politics as in Ireland or Belgium.


Anyway, the language is usually a hot topic in the bilingual and multi-lingual environments. The names are strong symbols, and ignoring that fact is most often a mission impossible. Thus, multilingual signs are here, and we must live with them.

An example about the strong connection between signage and politics comes from Tallinn: One of the very first actions after Estonia restored its independence was to replace the bilingual (Estonian/Russian) street name signs with unilingual ones.


----------



## Stainless

CNGL said:


> ^^ :crazy: It must be a waste of time looking for the correct script you know...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I laughed when I discovered that our volleyball league shares its acronym with a well-known town in Spanish forums.


Probably much easier than if they were the same. With the Belgian sign I would be thinking where is Parijs? But when I look at your signature I can read the Korean script and the Cyrillic but ignore the rest.


----------



## CNGL

I think the same. I only understant one of four scripts. BTW, my signature contains the name of my hometown in 6 different scripts.


----------



## Qwert

zsimi80 said:


> Congratulations. hno:


Hungarian minority has its representatives in the parliament, in the government and also in the Ministry of Transportation. Since 1989 noone of them has proposed bilingual signage. So what's the point of its introduction, if even Hungarians themselves as well as other minorities don't want it?

The people who placed the sign there are part of Facebook group with 1.375 members (majority of them doesn't even live in Slovakia), which is vandalising inscriptions written in Slovak in the southern regions and they seem to be paid by Orbán. They represent maybe 1 % of Hungarian minority.

Here is for example Arpád Ersék, Secretary of State of the Ministry of Transportation (basically the second most important person at the ministry) talking about modernisation of railway Bratislava - Dunajská Streda:


----------



## Viriatuus

For those who say that there are no bilingual roadsigns in Hungary, you may want to see this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pennyjey/5072042501/


----------



## Qwert

Viriatuus said:


> For those who say that there are no bilingual roadsigns in Hungary, you may want to see this:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pennyjey/5072042501/


These are not traffic signs, it's just name of the street/square.

Such signs are also in Slovakia and many more countries:


----------



## alserrod

It is not on roads. It is located in one judges on my city... but, can we find a pannel in a public administration building with so many different languages?


----------



## Brice

Corvinus said:


> On Corsica island, city names generally are indicated in French and Corsican.
> French names are often sprayed over.


Most city names in Corsica are actually in Italian, not French.


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> It is not on roads. It is located in one judges on my city... but, can we find a pannel in a public administration building with so many different languages?


Hmm. Whoever made that sign may think they wrote in English and French on it, but they're mistaken....


----------



## Viriatuus

Qwert, sorry for my confusing...


----------



## hofburg

Milica :lol: (should be Policija)










http://maps.google.fr/maps?saddr=46...234489&vpsrc=6&mra=mift&mrsp=0&sz=13&t=m&z=13


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Penn's Woods said:


> Hmm. Whoever made that sign may think they wrote in English and French on it, but they're mistaken....


The Portuguese is a bit strange as well, it should say "Zona de Segurança-Entrada Proibida"


----------



## Palance

Milica or Milicija was used in former YU, so this should be an old sign.


----------



## ea1969

alserrod said:


>


And the Greek translation is not very well done, too.

As it is on the sign it is meant: zone of the security - noone entry. It should be better to state: ΑΣΦΑΛΗΣ ΖΩΝΗ - ΑΠΑΓΟΡΕΥΕΤΑΙ Η ΕΙΣΟΔΟΣ.


----------



## alserrod

ea1969 said:


> And the Greek translation is not very well done, too.
> 
> As it is on the sign it is meant: zone of the security - noone entry. It should be better to state: ΑΣΦΑΛΗΣ ΖΩΝΗ - ΑΠΑΓΟΡΕΥΕΤΑΙ Η ΕΙΣΟΔΟΣ.




to everybody... it is a pity but I do not save a photo I made to a bilingual????? signs on city taxis... because any on-line traslator made it better.

And I am sure that no one in that administration speaks any foreing language. But it is easy to use your time at work and try to put in ten or twenty languages a signal...


----------



## Hanno1983

alserrod said:


>


Correct German translation should be "Sicherheitszone - Kein Zutritt!"


----------



## Hanno1983

ChrisZwolle said:


> One of the worst things that can happen to signage is bilinguality. Sometimes it is necessary because of different writing systems, but it adds to clutter. Signs do preferably have no more than six destinations on them. With two languages, this reduces the amount of destinations to three. Especially at complicated situations, the last thing you want is a load of clutter due to bilingual signs. Signage needs to be pragmatic and above language politics as in Ireland or Belgium.


Yes, that is an important point. I agree.
But the main problem is the political issue. If i am right southern regions of Slovakia are Hungarian-speaking for centuries. So the question is whether Slovakian names have got any historical roots or were introduced only because of political reasons.
Today, I think because of political reasions it is impossible to replace Slovakian names by Hungarian on Slovak territory like it was done in Catalonia for example (Spanish replaced by Catalan). So bilingual signs are the only possible solution for Hungarian-speaking regions in Slovakia.


----------



## veteran

Hanno1983 said:


> So the question is whether Slovakian names have got any historical roots or were introduced only because of political reasons.
> 
> Today, I think because of political reasions it is impossible to replace Slovakian names by Hungarian on Slovak territory like it was done in Catalonia for example (Spanish replaced by Catalan). So bilingual signs are the only possible solution for Hungarian-speaking regions in Slovakia.


Some yes, some no. Some municipalities were renamed by historical persons - *Štúr*ovo, *Hamuliak*ovo, *Kolár*ovo, *Hurban*ovo etc. After 1989 were plebiscites in most of that municipalities with question whether inhabitants (mostly Hungarians) want to change the name of settlement on historical - e.g. Kolárovo - Guta (Guta), Štúrovo - Parkan (Párkány), Hamuliakovo - Gútor (Gutor), Hurbanovo - Stará Ďala (Ógyalla) etc. Suprisingly, inhabitants said NO (AFAIK, the only change was made in Tornaľa - in 1948-1990 named *Šafárik*ovo). People don't want any changes. When they speak Hungarian, they call this settlements by original Hungarian name (Guta, Párkány, Gutor, Ógyalla), when speaking Slovak - call them by offical Slovak names. And there's no problem. 

"Problem" of bilinguality in southern Slovakia is exaggerated by nationalistic groups like this which put this sign near by road no. 63. This group has 1500 "fans" on Facebook, most of them does not have a Slovak citizenship. They are from Hungary. So people from Hungary are dissatisfied, that in Slovakia is not bilingual direction signage hno:

Hungarians living in Slovakia have standard rights, as well as other nationalities. And most of them are aware of it. They could speak Hugarian on municipality office, all regulations issued by municipality are in Slovak and also in Hungarian, etc., etc. 

Municipalities with at least 15% inhabitants with non-Slovak nationality must be signed by bilingual road sign - at begining and at the end of municipality. 

Road signs are not ethnographic signs. 99% of drivers absolutely don't care what is the Hungarian name of municipality. And so - this signs are sufficient. Most of Slovaks know only Slovak names, Hungarians living in Slovakia know both names and foreigners - they are usually navigated by GPS or by maps where are written only official names (Slovak).


----------



## keber

viedumonde said:


> Haha.. it doesnt happen. We automatically look at the script we know. And many people in delhi know atleast 3 of these 4 scripts.


Those indian scripts are so different that you could hardly miss searching one you know. However logotype of road agency (I presume) on top of the sign and pin code on the bottom is completely unnecessary.


----------



## Hanno1983

veteran said:


> "Problem" of bilinguality in southern Slovakia is exaggerated by nationalistic groups like this which put this sign near by road no. 63. This group has 1500 "fans" on Facebook, most of them does not have a Slovak citizenship. They are from Hungary. So people from Hungary are dissatisfied, that in Slovakia is not bilingual direction signage hno:


I agree. This point applies only to Slovak citizens not to Hungarian people.
Maybe to Hungarian state if it is protecting power for Hungarian-peaking people of Slovakia (like Austria for German-speaking South Tirolians in Italy).


----------



## Maks33

alserrod said:


> It is not on roads. It is located in one judges on my city... but, can we find a pannel in a public administration building with so many different languages?


Russian translation is not correct too. It would be "ЗОНА БЕЗОПАСНОСТИ - ВХОД ВОСПРЕЩЁН".


----------



## alserrod

I must say that at least, Spanish text is correct (be sure that sometimes you can find any mistake in this signs)


----------



## g.spinoza

Italian translation is hilarious: "Ha proibito il punto" means "He forbade the point"  
Correct translation would be "vietato l'accesso".


----------



## viedumonde

keber said:


> Those indian scripts are so different that you could hardly miss searching one you know. However logotype of road agency (I presume) on top of the sign and pin code on the bottom is completely unnecessary.


Its not the road agency, its the name and symbol of New Delhi Municipal Corporation (the oversmart capital district) But I guess the pincode is not necessary


----------



## Alex_ZR

g.spinoza said:


> Italian translation is hilarious: "Ha proibito il punto" means "He forbade the point"
> Correct translation would be "vietato l'accesso".


It looks like someone used Google Translate.


----------



## alserrod

Be sure


----------



## Bad_Hafen

Arbenit said:


> In Albanian, Serbian and in Turkish:


skopje is in Macedonian not in Serbian


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Wouldn't Macedonian be in Cyrillic?
And why Turkish in Albania? Even more so, why Turkish and not Greek?


----------



## Christophorus

^^ That is not in Albania, and in the Pec area (where the picture is taken) formerly was a significant turkish minority, probably some turks still live there.


----------



## Verso

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Wouldn't Macedonian be in Cyrillic?


That's right, it's in Slovenian.  It's Macedonian (Скопје), but transliterated in Latin alphabet. In Serbian it's Skoplje/Скопље.



Penn's Woods said:


> And why Turkish in Albania?


The sign is in Kosovo.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Verso said:


> That's right, it's in Slovenian.  It's Macedonian (Скопје), but transliterated in Latin alphabet. In Serbian it's Skoplje/Скопље.
> 
> The sign is in Kosovo.


I misread something somewhere, apparently. :bash:


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> That's right, it's in Slovenian.


i'm just watching at you


----------



## Verso

I don't know, that's how we call it. :angel:


----------



## Junkie

Bad_Hafen said:


> skopje is in Macedonian not in Serbian


English name is SKOPJE, serbian only in Serbia.


----------



## Corvinus

BND said:


> Bilingual sign in Slovakia (not official, unfortunately...):


... and what remained of it: 









(Src: Bumm.sk)


----------



## Capt.Vimes

Verso said:


> That's right, it's in Slovenian.  It's Macedonian (Скопје), but transliterated in Latin alphabet. In Serbian it's Skoplje/Скопље.
> 
> The sign is in Kosovo.


Why Turkish in Kosovo?


----------



## Verso

^^ http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=85144410&postcount=664


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Corvinus said:


> ... and what remained of it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Src: Bumm.sk)


In Portugal it would have remained forever I bet, the authorities wouldn't notice :lol:


----------



## piotr71

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tbilisser-platz-saarbruecken.jpg


----------



## Bad_Hafen

Junkie said:


> English name is SKOPJE, serbian only in Serbia.


The point is that they wanted to write in Serbian but they made mistake. 
btw Skopje is Macedonian and not english, english is the same as Macedonian not other way around.


----------



## pobre diablo

Bad_Hafen said:


> The point is that they wanted to write in Serbian but they made mistake.
> btw Skopje is Macedonian and not english, english is the same as Macedonian not other way around.


Macedonian is written in Cyrillic *only*, so Skopje cannot be in Macedonian.


----------



## Bad_Hafen

pobre diablo said:


> Macedonian is written in Cyrillic *only*, so Skopje cannot be in Macedonian.


not true, Macedonian can also be written in Latin. The point is that the name is Macedonian version, original, and not Serbian as meant to be.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

pobre diablo said:


> Macedonian is written in Cyrillic *only*, so Skopje cannot be in Macedonian.


So 'Rossiyskaya Federatsiya' isn't Russian?


----------



## Christophorus

Here you can learn something about the correct transcription of cyrillic into latin characters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9


----------



## Lum Lumi

Christophorus said:


> ^^ That is not in Albania, and in the Pec area (where the picture is taken) formerly was a significant turkish minority, probably some turks still live there.


The sign is in Prizren, not in Peja. Kosovo has two official languages: Albanian and Serbian. In towns where significant other minorities exist, or where languages have been used in the past for cultural reasons, other languages can be official in that town. Therefore Prizren has Albanian, Serbian and Turkish as official languages that are used throughout the town in signs and other public documents.


----------



## g.spinoza

Zagor666 said:


> German/Italian/Slovenian/Another one in Friuli


The "another one" is Friulian.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Corvinus said:


> ^^ "Evolution": YU --> SCG --> SRB (--> RKS, if Hungary had also Kosovar cities signed, but it doesn't)


I doubt that, because Kosovo went under UN administration in 1999, when YU code was still actual. Also, I don't think Kosovo Albanians would have anything with government in Belgrade after that.


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> The "another one" is Friulian.


I'm still laughing at the "turn right for A4".


----------



## italystf

Zagor666 said:


> German/English/Italian/Serbo-Croatian(Latin/Cyrillic) on the austrian side of the wurzenpass/podkoren


Serbo - Croatian in Austria? Why?



Zagor666 said:


> German/Italian/Slovenian/Another one in Friuli


Did you see that sign by yourself? Where exactly near Tarvisio? It seems fake because there is no A4 anywhere in that area. Or maybe they would mean A23 and made a mistake.


----------



## Alex_ZR

italystf said:


> Serbo - Croatian in Austria? Why?


Because it was official language in Yugoslavia (that sign is obviously from that times).

There's a mistike in Latin variant of Serbo-Croatian inscription: it's not "olučaju" but "slučaju".


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Did you see that sign by yourself? Where exactly near Tarvisio? It seems fake because there is no A4 anywhere in that area. Or maybe they would mean A23 and made a mistake.


It exists. It's here:
https://maps.google.it/?ll=46.42627...d=aC2jlyp4vW08lcJlg1bhdw&cbp=12,13.93,,0,3.51

I guess A4 is an error. And they couldn't mean A23 either, because otherwise they should have put it on the other direction (Cave del Predil, Tarvisio, A23).


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> It exists. It's here:
> https://maps.google.it/?ll=46.426273,13.565208&spn=0.001566,0.004128&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=46.426397,13.565257&panoid=aC2jlyp4vW08lcJlg1bhdw&cbp=12,13.93,,0,3.51
> 
> I guess A4 is an error. And they couldn't mean A23 either, because otherwise they should have put it on the other direction (Cave del Predil, Tarvisio, A23).


I understand. By turning right you can reach Udine across Slovenian territory (Predil pass - Kobarid - Cividale - Udine) and then A4. But it's much faster returning back to Sella Nevea and take the A23 at Carnia junction.


----------



## Verso

Alex_ZR said:


> Because it was official language in Yugoslavia (that sign is obviously from that times).


It was only administrative. The only official language in Slovenia was Slovenian (along with Italian and Hungarian on some places, but not there). But we understood Serbo-Croatian as well, of course.


----------



## Zagor666

italystf said:


> Serbo - Croatian in Austria? Why?
> 
> 
> Did you see that sign by yourself? Where exactly near Tarvisio? It seems fake because there is no A4 anywhere in that area. Or maybe they would mean A23 and made a mistake.


My pictures are all "selfmade" with just a few exceptions like the sign in syria 
this sign stands near the Passo Predil and it was made 2004


----------



## Zagor666

more from South Tyrol


----------



## seem

Kuneschau - one of last German villages in Slovakia


----------



## italystf

Zagor666 said:


> more from South Tyrol


Trilingual sign Ladin/German/Italian. Weird language order. It's probably in a valley where Ladin is commonly spoken.


----------



## Palance

Canada, Highway 99:


----------



## x-type

wow, after long time someting exciting in this thread! 
how do they pronounce _7_ in Sḵwx̱wú7mesh?


----------



## Palance

No idea. I haven't tried to do so  This was the only spot where I saw signs in First Nations-languages. In National Parks, signs are mostly bilingual English-French. But since there are no places (not that I know of) in Canada with different names in English of French, bilinguality was restricted to "Exit-Sortie" and those kind of signs.


----------



## Christophorus

^^ what languages are those two on the last canadian signs?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Palance said:


> No idea. I haven't tried to do so  This was the only spot where I saw signs in First Nations-languages. In National Parks, signs are mostly bilingual English-French. But since t*here are no places (not that I know of) in Canada with different names in English of French, *bilinguality was restricted to "Exit-Sortie" and those kind of signs.


I could come up with a few if I felt like expending the mental energy (I've heard St. John's*, Newfoundland, referred to in French as "Saint-Jean, Terre-Neuve."), but I think the days when Anglophones called Trois-Rivières "Three Rivers" are long gone.

*Always spelled "St.," while Saint John, New Brunswick, is always spelled out - "Saint" - to help distinguish them.

:cheers:


----------



## Verso

seem said:


> Kuneschau - one of last German villages in Slovakia


Kunesch*h*au :nono:



x-type said:


> wow, after long time someting exciting in this thread!
> how do they pronounce _7_ in Sḵwx̱wú7mesh?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Skwxwu7mesh_Pronunciation.OGG



Christophorus said:


> ^^ what languages are those two on the last canadian signs?


I guess "Skwikw" and "Lúxwels" are in the Squamish language, while "Tsíqten" and "Skénkenam" are in the Lillooet language, I think.


----------



## Dan

Scottish govt is planning on dual English-Gaelic signs on national roads. It won't replace existing ones of course, but new ones that need to be raised will be dual.

As it stands, it's mostly just in the very north one finds dual signs.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Skwxwu7mesh_Pronunciation.OGG


yeah, i have heard it already. but anyway, it doesn't help me understanding how 7 is pronounced  in other words - which part of skho-homesh is 7?


----------



## Road_UK

Centre is British English for center, which is American English.


----------



## Zagor666

ChrisZwolle said:


> Germanic languages also have a tendency to form very long combined words, making them hard to understand for foreigners like Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftskapitänsmütze or rörelseuppskattningssökintervallsinställningar


For me it was pretty easy to learn German and English,but Russian was hard.I had 7 years Russian in school,never had English in school most of my English comes from Beavis & Butt-head :colgate: but my English is probably better then my Russian and i am Slavic.I dont wanna know how hard is for somebody who speaks English,French,Arabian,Spanish and so on to learn Russian :nuts:


----------



## Dolph

Road_UK said:


> Centre is British English for center, which is American English.


What I meant to say is, to keep to one standard all road sign, doesn't matter to me if is British,American or any other English.


----------



## Road_UK

Let's have some Jamaican English in Bulgaria then. A little bit of Carribean culture in a Slavic country...


----------



## Dolph

Check this out:
The sing says: "Str. 20th of April"


----------



## Dolph

Road_UK said:


> Let's have some Jamaican English in Bulgaria then. A little bit of Carribean culture in a Slavic country...


:wtf: I was talking hypothetically :lol:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Zagor666 said:


> For me it was pretty easy to learn German and English,but Russian was hard.I had 7 years Russian in school,never had English in school most of my English comes from Beavis & Butt-head :colgate: but my English is probably better then my Russian and i am Slavic.I dont wanna know how hard is for somebody who speaks English,French,Arabian,Spanish and so on to learn Russian :nuts:


I took Polish my senior year in college (American "in college" = British "at university") because I'm good at languages and that's where all my ancestors are from.

Unfortunately, after about a month all the words started to look alike. Think I'd reached my limit.

I haven't tried to learn Russian but did teach myself (at age 8...) the Cyrillic alphabet. I know if I tried to learn Russian the alphabet would be a barrier: when I read place names in a Latin-alphabet language language I don't know, it's reasonably fast, but with Greek or Cyrillic (where I know the alphabets but not the languages, so I'd only use them to read proper names) it's far slower. I've heard that in your own language you recognize words rather than letters* - your brain takes in the beginning and end and fills in the rest so you don't actually have to look at every letter - and apparently that works for me for other Latin-alphabet languages but not in other alphabets. So I imagine I'd have trouble with road signs in Russia or Greece that don't have a transliteration.


----------



## alserrod

Dolph said:


> I believe(and many of my friends to) that at least in Bulgaria all road signs should be in Bulgarian and in English only, no Latin, no French or German.
> It ridiculous right now, we have sings in Sofia- Center,Centre,Centrum hno: for the city center. It's a lot easy to sign everything in English, like in airport or subway.
> Another complication is Latin transliteration of names like Sofiya :nuts:.In all maps,road atlas,airports etc. is written Sofia. Its so easy to keep everything in English.




Spain can be the country in Europe that receives more people on tourism.

And... depending on areas you will find signs in some languages or other...

If it is a not specially tourist area, only in Spanish (as well as if you go any medium country you will find most of signs in their language).

But in touristic areas it is a really Babel tower.

Usually English is everywhere... but not always. Where I have been on holidays a lot of signs are in Catalan, Spanish, French and German. Why??, English tourism there is not usual. German it is, and France is close there.

Should you go to Canary Islands and you will find almost all in Spanish, English and German. It is curious but... signs on airports are on those three languages and in the same order. At least official signs. Not only Spanish and English but also German. Why?, There are a lot, lot, lot of flights from Germany and Austria.

My city is a big inner city that do not receive as many tourism as other areas but still receive visitors. In main monuments you can find information in several languages but if you go to the tourism office they will give you information in several languages and... specially if you ask in English and... Italian.

Italian people means about 30% of foreing visitors in the city...


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> Spain can be the country in Europe that receives more people on tourism.
> 
> And... depending on areas you will find signs in some languages or other...
> 
> If it is a not specially tourist area, only in Spanish (as well as if you go any medium country you will find most of signs in their language).
> 
> But in touristic areas it is a really Babel tower.
> 
> Usually English is everywhere... but not always. Where I have been on holidays a lot of signs are in Catalan, Spanish, French and German. Why??, English tourism there is not usual. German it is, and France is close there.
> 
> Should you go to Canary Islands and you will find almost all in Spanish, English and German. It is curious but... signs on airports are on those three languages and in the same order. At least official signs. Not only Spanish and English but also German. Why?, There are a lot, lot, lot of flights from Germany and Austria.
> 
> My city is a big inner city that do not receive as many tourism as other areas but still receive visitors. In main monuments you can find information in several languages but if you go to the tourism office they will give you information in several languages and... specially if you ask in English and... Italian.
> 
> Italian people means about 30% of foreing visitors in the city...


Yes, I went to Barcellona and somethimes it was easier being understood in Italian than in English (I don't speak Spanish). Being both Latin languages many words are quite similar although the grammar is completely different. Trying to read a Spanish paper in the hotel I managed to understand something here and there. That would impossible if it was written in German or Slovenian.
For this reason many Italian students go to cultural exchanges in Spain and vice versa.


----------



## Coccodrillo

alserrod said:


> Latin languages usually have words with a lot of vowels.


Like "cuoiaio", 6 vowels, the word with more consecutive vowels in Italian :nuts: 

It designates a person that works and/or sell leather (cuoio = leather).

As curious as the western European words with few or no vowels I cannot ever imagine how to read.


----------



## italystf

Coccodrillo said:


> Like "cuoiaio", 6 vowels, the word with more consecutive vowels in Italian :nuts:
> 
> It designates a person that works and/or sell leather (cuoio = leather).
> 
> As curious as the western European words with few or no vowels I cannot ever imagine how to read.


I think only Slavic languages have vowel-less words.
Such Krk (HR island) or Trst (SLO-HR) for Trieste.


----------



## alserrod

Coccodrillo said:


> Like "cuoiaio", 6 vowels, the word with more consecutive vowels in Italian :nuts:
> 
> It designates a person that works and/or sell leather (cuoio = leather).
> 
> As curious as the western European words with few or no vowels I cannot ever imagine how to read.




In Spanish "Ayuntamiento" means town hall. It is one of those words with... the five vowels inside!!!!!. I am looking for any traffic signal with the name but do not get at google. Maybe later looking in google earth and near any town hall of any city.

PS: "murcielago" (bat) is another all-five-vowels words


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> Yes, I went to Barcellona and somethimes it was easier being understood in Italian than in English (I don't speak Spanish). Being both Latin languages many words are quite similar although the grammar is completely different. Trying to read a Spanish paper in the hotel I managed to understand something here and there. That would impossible if it was written in German or Slovenian.
> For this reason many Italian students go to cultural exchanges in Spain and vice versa.




About studying... it is strange because in Spain the offer is all wide Europe, including Italy of course but not only that country.
Reading an Italian text, for instance, is easier than a French text for a Spanish speaker (and a Portuguese text is much easier).


Being at Barcelona, for a Latin language speaker there is a hint: as far as they speak two Latin languages (Spanish and Catalan) and a lot of signals and texts will be found bilingual, you can choose which one to read. They are different but close one to other... and maybe they use that word easier to understand.

For non Latin languages speakers there is a problem: should you have a dictionary for any translation you will have to know first of all in which language they are written. You will not find enough differences but impossible to find translation if you use the wrong dictionary.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> I think only Slavic languages have vowel-less words.
> Such Krk (HR island) or Trst (SLO-HR) for Trieste.


Try _čmrljčki_ (little bumblebees). :troll:


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> In Spanish "Ayuntamiento" means town hall. It is one of those words with... the five vowels inside!!!!!. I am looking for any traffic signal with the name but do not get at google. Maybe later looking in google earth and near any town hall of any city.
> 
> PS: "murcielago" (bat) is another all-five-vowels words


There's one word in English that has all five vowels, and in the right order. But I can't remember it....:bash:


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Yes, I went to Barcellona and somethimes it was easier being understood in Italian than in English (I don't speak Spanish). Being both Latin languages many words are quite similar although the grammar is completely different. Trying to read a Spanish paper in the hotel I managed to understand something here and there. That would impossible if it was written in German or Slovenian.
> For this reason many Italian students go to cultural exchanges in Spain and vice versa.


When I was in Spain hiking in the Sierra Nevada I met a couple of Spaniards and tried to talk to them in English (I know some Spanish but I was too tired to try). The guy asked: "Where are you from?". I answered "Italy". The guy (in Spanish) "so speak Italian and I'll speak Spanish, it's easier for all" 


I never took any class of Spanish, but in the rest of Spain I got by speaking Spanish - or at least a good guess. Maybe it's because in my native Italian dialect there are many words and phrases similar to Spanish.

An example:
Eng: "I like very much"
Ita: "Mi piace molto"
Spa: "Me gusta mucho"
Dial: "Me gusta muntovè".


----------



## Viriatuus

Verso, sounding like "tchmerlitchki"...?


----------



## Verso

Penn's Woods said:


> There's one word in English that has all five vowels, and in the right order. But I can't remember it....:bash:


Abstemious, abstentious, arsenious, caesious, facetious?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^[blushes]
Okay, I guess I heard somewhere that there was only one such word and I believed it.:bash:

I think "facetious" was it.

I'm not sure "abstentious," "arsenious" and "caesious" actually exist outside of unabridged dictionaries. And if "caesious" does, we probably spell it "cesious" over here.

But "abstemious" does exist. So my source (for the only-one-such-word thing) was lying.:bash:

EDIT: Merriam-Webster on line (http://www.merriam-webster.com/) only finds "arsenious" of those three.


----------



## Verso

Viriatuus said:


> Verso, sounding like "tchmerlitchki"...?


I would say [chmərlchki] (accent on "ə", and you can omit "j").


----------



## Dolph

I still believe that for countries like mine should be used one universal(for all road signs) signage. Today the most common language is English, so lets use it.
And for tourists, there is no problem, because in Bulgaria the majority of the tourists are from Russia,UK,Scandinavia,Greece and a bit Germans.
Russians read perfectly Bulgarian signs, all of the rest are ok with the Eng. translation.
One other thing that pisses me off is that we use as a direction to other country the last possible village or town in Bulgaria, but not mentioning the big city in the neighboring country. For example we use Kulata instead ot Солун/Thessaloniki in Bg/Eng.:bash: Or Svilengrad insted of Istambul....It's like this from Soviet times.
I hope they(authorities) change this way of signing. 

And the Latin should be dropped out..
ENG LATIN
Sofia Sofiya
Bulgaria Bulgariya


----------



## alserrod

In Spain, if more than one languages it is usual to write in English and French... but you can find it in other languages... as Portuguese (think that every Portuguese has to cross Spain to go anywhere).

It is not common to see different languages as well international pics do not require them.

The exemptions can be found near French or Portuguese border with signals only Spanish/French or Spanish/Portuguese (for instance texts like "this way only for trucks" written in Spanish and French only... just besides a border)



In the case of tourism, of course English is almost everywhere... but where I have been on holidays for a lot of years, people on resorts learnt before French rather than English, just because many more tourists from France (and money is money)


What it was surprised for me was finding airports at Canary Islands all of them in Spanish, English and German with no exemptions (in official signals) and it is not the only one... 
Normally, almost all of them, in Spanish and English (and second official language like Basque, Galician, Catalan... if apply)


----------



## Verso

Dolph said:


> And the Latin should be dropped out..
> ENG LATIN
> Sofia Sofiya
> Bulgaria Bulgariya


Isn't the Latin transliteration of "България" _B*a*lgaria_? And I've never seen _Sofi*y*a_ on signs. _Sofi*j*a_ would be ok (that's how we call it), but it's a Slavic transliteration, not English.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Are Portuguese and Spanish close enough that you can read Portuguese and understand it even if you haven't studied it? (Does anyone in Spain study it, for that matter?)


----------



## Dolph

Verso said:


> Isn't the Latin transliteration of "България" _B*a*lgaria_? And I've never seen _Sofi*y*a_ on signs. _Sofi*j*a_ would be ok (that's how we call it), but it's a Slavic transliteration, not English/Germanic/Western.


I believe there is a law(in BG) not to use J but Y when translating into Latin,long story .........tensions with Serbia in the past if I'm not mistaken.
The correct Latin translation of Bulgaria should be B'lgarija......."nice" :lol:


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> Are Portuguese and Spanish close enough that you can read Portuguese and understand it even if you haven't studied it? (Does anyone in Spain study it, for that matter?)




Yes, they are close enought... but also enough differences to have to know both languages to a full understanding.

In Spain there are no many places to study Portuguese, but someones you can find. As an example... in my University it was able to study several languages as a grade complement where including Portuguese as one of them.
But I think that in all the city (5th in Spain but far away from Portugal) there is no other place to study it.

In north-west Spain it is spoken Galician which is very, very, very close to Portuguese.


----------



## piotr71

Road_UK said:


> Let's have some Jamaican English in Bulgaria then. *A little bit of Carribean culture in a Slavic country*...


Already happened :lol:

wMZYD6D8io


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Penn's Woods said:


> Are Portuguese and Spanish close enough that you can read Portuguese and understand it even if you haven't studied it? (Does anyone in Spain study it, for that matter?)


Yeah, spoken word is harder for one to understand the other though, although there are large enough differences for bilingual signage to make sence in some situations. I think that they Portuguese is part of the curriculum in the region of Extremadura. I think that most students in Portugal learn Spanish near the border too, in places like Elvas


----------



## alserrod

DanielFigFoz said:


> Yeah, spoken word is harder for one to understand the other though, although there are large enough differences for bilingual signage to make sence in some situations. I think that they Portuguese is part of the curriculum in the region of Extremadura. I think that most students in Portugal learn Spanish near the border too, in places like Elvas



Have checked several web pages to have a look to student's curriculum on schools and high schools and only French and English are considered. If the school wants can offer also German, but very often only English and French (you need too many students to offer three languages in a school).

It is possible to have a bilingual school. In my region they started making someones and now stopped because no money but those created still remains. In those of them, 50% of subjects are in Spanish and 50% in the language the school decided (almost all of them English, but in my region there are several ones 50% French and one for German).
Being a country that has not as many languages culture as other European countries I think it is too much starting in that system with 3 years old kids.

Apart of that... all schools that want, can offer extra subjects or activities... and schools in Extremadura can offer Portuguese (I have read that 70% students of Portuguese live there).


In Spain it exists the "Language official school". Six courses and you receive the equivalent of a B2 language title, standarized in Europe. And it is a official grade (with an university career and that B2 title you can be a high school teacher)

I have read that all, all those schools offer Portuguese for any students


----------



## Coccodrillo

alserrod said:


> (you need too many students to offer three languages in a school)


Or have a law that obliges them (in Italian-speaking Switzerland, these are French, German and English, in Graubünden German is mandatory for Italian speakers and viceversa). What is the situation in Belgium, especially in the German-speaking part (that interests me, as in percentage they are similar to Italian and Romansh speakers in Switzerland)?


----------



## alserrod

Law just only obligue to learn a foreing language... not necessary English but chosen by almost all students (the only case I know of a mate with my same age who did not chosen English was because his mother is German. He studied always English and German but in last course, where exam marks are important to go to University, he decided German because he was bilingual)


----------



## Penn's Woods

Coccodrillo said:


> Or have a law that obliges them (in Italian-speaking Switzerland, these are French, German and English, in Graubünden German is mandatory for Italian speakers and viceversa). What is the situation in Belgium, especially in the German-speaking part (that interests me, as in percentage they are similar to Italian and Romansh speakers in Switzerland)?


The German-speaking part of Belgium is autonomous - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-speaking_Community_of_Belgium - so German is the language of schooling, if that's what you're asking.

My understanding (as a foreigner who pays attention to the country) of what languages are taught is:
in Dutch-speaking areas, French is the first foreign language, then English; others are an option.
in Brussels (which is legally bilingual - French/Dutch - but each of those two language groups has its own schools), the first foreign language taught is the other national language (Dutch in French-speaking schools and vice-versa), with English next.
in French-speaking areas, the local authorities get to choose whether Dutch or English will be the first foreign language; the other is taught next. I think most places choose Dutch. There may be some areas in the east where German's first.
Not sure about German-speaking areas.
The inconsistencies from one region to the next are because this is now under "community" rather than Federal jurisdiction.

Everything you could ever want to know about Belgian language laws - if you read French - here: http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/europe/belgiqueacc.htm

For what it's worth: notwithstanding the U.S.'s reputation for not caring about foreign languages, my suburban, 1,500-student, public high school 30-odd years ago offered Spanish, French, German, Italian, I think another one I'm forgetting, and Latin.


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> For what it's worth: notwithstanding the U.S.'s reputation for not caring about foreign languages, my suburban, 1,500-student, public high school 30-odd years ago offered Spanish, French, German, Italian, I think another one I'm forgetting, and *Latin*.




Should have to check current system but in Spain I had one year of Latin mandatory when 16 years old. Later, with 17 and 18 Latin and Greek were optionnel.

In the University of my city there is one career for Latin and Greek (both together).

Apart of that, in the university language institute it is possible to study "current Greek" (not classical Greek)


----------



## Metred

In the Basque Country most of the signs are bilingual, in the Southern Basque Country (Spain) they're usually in Basque and Spanish, with the exception of toponyms of towns, which normally are only in Basque. In the Northern Basque Country (France) however, only the signs about towns and cities are bilingual (Basque and French), the rest are only in French (there are some exceptions though).

These traffic signs near Bilbao (Southern Basque Country, Spain) are bilingual:

This one says _Kontuz/Atención - Gogora ezazu/Recuerde_ (Basque and Spanish for "Attention - Remember")










This one is also in both languages:










Now, here's one from the Northern Basque Country, near Hendaye (in France), it's a not very common sign, as not only it includes info about towns in both French and Basque, but also about some other locations (which is not very frequent in France):










Finally this one near Vitoria (Southern Basque Country, Spain) includes text in Arabic:


----------



## pobre diablo

Dolph said:


> I believe there is a law(in BG) not to use J but Y when translating into Latin,long story .........tensions with Serbia in the past if I'm not mistaken.
> The correct Latin translation of Bulgaria should be B'lgarija......."nice" :lol:


Yes, you are mistaken. :nuts:

J is not a good letter to transliterate that sound/glide, as it can mean different sounds in different languages. Y is always in most languages the same.


----------



## pobre diablo

Verso said:


> Isn't the Latin transliteration of "България" _B*a*lgaria_? And I've never seen _Sofi*y*a_ on signs. _Sofi*j*a_ would be ok (that's how we call it), but it's a Slavic transliteration, not English.


"Sofia" and "Bulgaria" are exempt from the transliteration rules as Sofiya and Balgariya just look awful.


----------



## MattiG

pobre diablo said:


> Y is always in most languages the same.


Well... It is not.


----------



## pobre diablo

^^

Well, in the most important languages it is. Case closed.


----------



## Verso

MattiG said:


> Well... It is not.


Other than being pronounced also as "i" (ee), how else can it be pronounced (and in which language(s))?


----------



## MattiG

Verso said:


> Other than being pronounced also as "i" (ee), how else can it be pronounced (and in which language(s))?


For instance like the German Ü, as in the Scandinavian languages, in Finnish, and in German.

The pronunciation may vary, like in the German words "typisch" and "Hymne".


----------



## italystf

^^Villanova in Italy. Newcastle in Britain.

Notice: all British places containing "castle" or "chester" (Newcastle, Manchester,...) have Roman origins. Those names come from the Latin "castrum" that means "army camp".


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## italystf

The 2nd arrow should be "San Dorligo della Valle \ Dolina", not "Dolina \ Dolina".


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> ^^Villanova in Italy. Newcastle in Britain.


Villeneuve in France, Villanueva in Spain (there are several towns with this name. Just 12 km north from my city, Villanueva de Gallego)


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## alserrod

Villafeliche, a little 220 people village in the south east of Aragon, Spain, is "twined" with the Italian town of Villafelice in Lacio.
Villafeliche in Spanish and Villafelice in Italian are pronounced exactly in the same way!!!!!!




https://maps.google.es/maps?q=50391...=syhID9Z-JUl6KUdSZ0yyIA&cbp=12,113.88,,0,0.55


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> Notice: all British places containing "castle" or "chester" (Newcastle, Manchester,...) have Roman origins. Those names come from the Latin "castrum" that means "army camp".



In Spain, as well as in a lot of southern Europe countries, there are a lot, lot, lot of city and town names that come from Latin.

In most of ways, it is very obvious the origin: Barcino for Barcelona, Tarraco for Tarragona, Lucus Augusti for Lugo, Saguntum for Sagunto...

but there are some ones very curious:

* Legio VII, the city created for these militars retirement is now Leon
* Emerita Augusta, one of the three capitals in Iberia (with a territory in Extremadura and 70% Portugal more or less) is now Merida
* Another territory capital: Hispalis, was very close to current Sevilla. It is not know the exact point of that city, but the word "hispalense" referred to Sevilla's inhabitants is used in Spanish
* Similar to Bilbilis, current Calatayud, and city where Marco Valerio Marcial, one of the most important writters in Latin was born. Calatayud comes from Qalat Ayub (Ayub Castle in Arabic), but the word "bilbilitano" for inhabitants is used (and the only word used for that city)
* Near it... "Acquae Bilbilitanae", curren "Alhama de Aragon". Obviously current name is Arabic... but there are two different spa resorts in the little village, discovered by the Romans (translation name Bilbilis' waters)
* Carthago Nova (New Carthago), current Cartagena. Did someone think that the city located in the north of Tunis will give name to a Spanish city and later... to an important city in Colombia?????????
* Caesar Augusta. Founded in the year 25 before Christ by that Roman Empiror. It is the city where I live and took its name.


And not a town but the name I like more: Somport. It comes from Summus Portus.

1620 m over sea level, the lowest point in the central Pyrenees. Used by Anibal to cross to France with the elephants in the war against Roman Empire.
Used by Pilgrims in the Middle Age in the Lane to St. James
And maybe... the biggest toll-free tunnel in the E-07


----------



## italystf

Many Italian towns have names related to the distance (misured in Roman miles) from major cities:

- Sesto San Giovanni: 6 miles from Milan
- Sesto Fiorentino: 6 miles from Florence
- Sesto al Reghena: 6 miles from Concordia Sagittaria
- Sesto Calende: 6 miles from Somma Lombardo
- Settimo Torinese: 7 miles from Turin
- Settimo Milanese: 7 miles from Milan
- Quarto d'Altino: 4 miles from Altino (former Roman settlement near Mestre)
- Quarto Oggiaro: 4 miles from Milan
- Quarto dei Mille: 4 miles from Genoa
- Terzo di Aquileia: 3 miles from Aquileia
- Tricesimo: 30 miles from Aquileia
- Azzano Decimo: 10 miles from Concordia Sagittaria

and probably others

Codroipo come from "quadrivium" that in Italian is "quadrivio" and means "four roads intersection". (Most people know Codroipo just because is the perfect anagram of a very rude swearing expression very popular in this part of Italy  )

Cividale del Friuli was once called Forum Iulii (Emperor Julius's square) that later became Friuli and refers to the whole region located between Livenza river, Isonzo river, the Alpin watershed and the Adriatic sea.


----------



## alserrod

Numbers...


CNGL, where are you?????


Near Huesca (Osca in Latin) you have:

Tierz: related to 3
Cuarte: related to 4
Sietamo: related to 7
Nueno: related to 9


Take a look to distances from those little villages to Huesca. Even if they are in opposites directions, they have relations

https://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=h...ug&t=h&mra=dvme&mrsp=2&sz=13&via=1,2,3,4&z=13



Near Zaragoza, Cuarte (4) and Utebo (8) have relation with distance to Caesar Augusta. It exists Quinto too... but much far away.


----------



## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ Neuveville in French, Neustadt in German, ...


Yes, although Slovenian Novo mesto is in (old) German called Neustadt*l*.



italystf said:


> The 2nd arrow should be "San Dorligo della Valle \ Dolina", not "Dolina \ Dolina".


And _Dolina Glinš*č*ice_. Here is what Wikipedia says about Dolina:


> The Slovene name of the town, Dolina, means 'Valley'. This was the official name in Italian, as well, until it was renamed to San Dorligo Della Valle in 1923, as part of the policies of Fascist Italianization. In the local Italian Triestine dialect, the village has always been referred to simply as _Dolina_. In 2003, the denomination Dolina was adopted as the official name of the settlement in both languages;[2] however, the municipality is still called San Dorligo della Valle in Italian.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Dorligo_della_Valle#Name


----------



## Road_UK

Nieuwpoort in Belgium?


----------



## italystf

The word dolina exists in Italian dictionary and means a small valley in a carsic* territory.

*The adjective carsic doesn't just mean related to Carso/Kras (the highland shared by Italy and Slovenia) but also to similar areas arond the world.


----------



## CNGL

alserrod said:


> Numbers...
> 
> 
> CNGL, where are you?????


At the time you wrote your post I was sleeping .



alserrod said:


> Near Huesca (Osca in Latin) you have:
> 
> Tierz: related to 3
> Cuarte: related to 4
> Sietamo: related to 7
> Nueno: related to 9
> 
> 
> Take a look to distances from those little villages to Huesca. Even if they are in opposites directions, they have relations
> 
> https://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=h...ug&t=h&mra=dvme&mrsp=2&sz=13&via=1,2,3,4&z=13
> 
> 
> 
> Near Zaragoza, Cuarte (4) and Utebo (8) have relation with distance to Caesar Augusta. It exists Quinto too... but much far away.


I'm only sure of Sietamo, which is located seven miles away from Osca/Huesca (And where A-22 abruptly ends, and it will remain as it is well during decades). Tierz and Cuarte are too close to mark the 3rd and the 4th miles respectively IMO.


----------



## Zagor666

the name of the village where i live has also a interesting linguistic story,founded by hungarians in i dont know which year a they called piros which is a word that is hard to translate to english but it means something like red.as serbs arrived into the village they gave it the serbian name rumenka from the word rumen which also means something like red.the problem is that many cows in the balkans are named rumenka so that the name is a little bit funny :colgate:interesting fact is that we dont have one single cow in the village but maybe one day somebody will buy one so he can say this is rumenka from rumenka :lol:


----------



## alserrod

Villefranche (F) - Villafranca (E). Several towns with this name

Montauban (F) - Montalban (E)


----------



## Penn's Woods

italystf said:


> The word dolina exists in Italian dictionary and means a small valley in a carsic* territory.
> 
> *The adjective carsic doesn't just mean related to Carso/Kras (the highland shared by Italy and Slovenia) but also to similar areas arond the world.


Yes, but the word "carsic" does not exist in the two on-line English dictionaries I just checked.


----------



## hofburg

Verso said:


> Yes, although Slovenian Novo mesto is in (old) German called Neustadt*l*.


i thought it was Rudolfswerth, (Rudolfovo)


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Many Italian towns have names related to the distance (misured in Roman miles) from major cities:
> 
> - Sesto San Giovanni: 6 miles from Milan
> - Sesto Fiorentino: 6 miles from Florence
> - Sesto al Reghena: 6 miles from Concordia Sagittaria
> - Sesto Calende: 6 miles from Somma Lombardo
> - Settimo Torinese: 7 miles from Turin
> - Settimo Milanese: 7 miles from Milan
> - Quarto d'Altino: 4 miles from Altino (former Roman settlement near Mestre)
> - Quarto Oggiaro: 4 miles from Milan
> - Quarto dei Mille: 4 miles from Genoa
> - Terzo di Aquileia: 3 miles from Aquileia
> - Tricesimo: 30 miles from Aquileia
> - Azzano Decimo: 10 miles from Concordia Sagittaria
> 
> and probably others
> 
> Codroipo come from "quadrivium" that in Italian is "quadrivio" and means "four roads intersection". (Most people know Codroipo just because is the perfect anagram of a very rude swearing expression very popular in this part of Italy  )
> 
> Cividale del Friuli was once called Forum Iulii (Emperor Julius's square) that later became Friuli and refers to the whole region located between Livenza river, Isonzo river, the Alpin watershed and the Adriatic sea.


i just wanted to ask about that  thx for explanation.

btw, Noventa di Piave - why? is it 90 km/miles from Piave source?

Riese Pio X - obviously has something with pope, right?


----------



## Verso

Penn's Woods said:


> Yes, but the word "carsic" does not exist in the two on-line English dictionaries I just checked.


It's "karstic" (adjective) and "karst" (noun).



hofburg said:


> i thought it was Rudolfswerth, (Rudolfovo)


It's both.


----------



## italystf

x-type said:


> i just wanted to ask about that  thx for explanation.
> 
> btw, Noventa di Piave - why? is it 90 km/miles from Piave source?
> 
> Riese Pio X - obviously has something with pope, right?


Riese Pio X off course, Noventa di Piave not.
Few Italian towns are named after famous people:
San Mauro Pascoli
Arquà Petrarca
Castagneto Carducci
Roncole Verdi
Sasso Marconi


----------



## CNGL

x-type said:


> i just wanted to ask about that  thx for explanation.
> 
> btw, Noventa di Piave - why? is it 90 km/miles from Piave source?
> 
> Riese Pio X - obviously has something with pope, right?


AFAIK number 90 is "novanta" in Italian, so I don't think is after that. I asked the same thing with Noventa Vicentina. However, 90 IS spelt "noventa" in Spanish.

I have to look at a map of Spain again, I think I have found five or six penises on town names...


----------



## Road_UK

This thread is starting to be 90% in English now... :-*


----------



## italystf

CNGL said:


> I have to look at a map of Spain again, I think I have found five or six penises on town names...



I once found near Udine a street called Via Oselin, that means "little dick" in Venetian dialect.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> This thread is starting to be 90% in English now... :-*


LOL!
And when's the last time we actually saw a sign?


----------



## piotr71

italystf said:


> ^^Villanova in Italy. Newcastle in Britain.
> 
> Notice: all British places containing "castle" or "chester" (Newcastle, Manchester,...) have Roman origins. Those names come from the Latin "castrum" that means "army camp".


And all places suffixed with -*by* originate from the era when Vikings ruled most of Britain. For instance: Corby, Thirlby, Newby, Faceby and many more. You may see some resemblance to these names: Brøndby, Nørresundby and Røneby.


----------



## italystf

If you hear an Italian town ending in -ate 99% is in Lombardy.


----------



## Gil

piotr71 said:


> And all places suffixed with -*by* originate from the era when Vikings ruled most of Britain. For instance: Corby, Thirlby, Newby, Faceby and many more. You may see some resemblance to these names: Brøndby, Nørresundby and Røneby.


I remember watching a series on the evolution of the English language. The Norse suffix -by denoted an orchard. Hence: Appleby = apple orchard, Willoughby = willow orchard/grove, Grimsby = Grim's orchard, etc.


----------



## Dan

FYI...the new policy is that all the major trunk roads in Scotland, when the signs are to be replaced, will be dual English and Gaelic.


----------



## Fabri88

italystf said:


> If you hear an Italian town ending in -ate 99% is in Lombardy.


-ATE, -ANO and -AGO are celtic suffixes!

My nearest towns ending with those suffixes are: Gallarate, Samarate, Cassano Magnago, Fagnano Olona, Olgiate Olona, Dairago, Legnano etc...

You may find those suffixes also in the UK & Eire: -ATE, -ANE and -AGE.

Examples are: Ramsgate, Margate, Stevenage, Artane (a Dublin's borough)


----------



## Penn's Woods

I would assume the "-gate" in "Ramsgate" and "Margate" has nothing to do with "-ate," but comes from the word "gate," which has cognates in Scandinavian languages and German (gata, Gasse....)


----------



## Road_UK

Not gates as in the gateway to England? They're coastal towns, open the gate...


----------



## Penn's Woods

Gap in the cliffs, saith Wiki. (Look at the articles for both towns). But Ramsgate's got nothing to do with male sheep.

EDIT: I wonder what original meaning could have led to "gate," "Gasse" and "gata" (Swedish for "street") - "way through," or something? Probably related to go/gaan/gehen....


----------



## Corvinus

The shortest bilingual road sign ever?
Photographed in the canton of Valais (CH)










The lake itself cannot be seen, since it is _underground_.


----------



## Verso

^^ There's a Slovenian-Hungarian-speaking village in Slovenia called Kot/Kót.


----------



## CNGL

italystf said:


> Codroipo come from "quadrivium" that in Italian is "quadrivio" and means "four roads intersection". (Most people know Codroipo just because is the perfect anagram of a very rude swearing expression very popular in this part of Italy  )


After wondering for some weeks, I think I have found the very rude swearing expresion: It is "porco Dio" (pig God)?


----------



## italystf

CNGL said:


> After wondering for some weeks, I think I have found the very rude swearing expresion: It is "porco Dio" (dirty God)?


Porco = pig


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Porco means both pig and dirty in Portuguese, it probably does in Spanish too


----------



## CNGL

Correct, but it is spelt "puerco".


----------



## alserrod

Linguistic detail... in Spanish a lot of cases of "**-O-**" have been derived to "**-UE-**" such this case. 
But anything related with the pig could be PUERC*** or PORC***. For instance, "related about pigs" would be PORCino. (NOT puercino)


Any Spanish speaker would understand PORCO even if that word doesn't exist in the language


----------



## italystf

DanielFigFoz said:


> Porco means both pig and dirty in Portuguese, it probably does in Spanish too


Porco in Italian means pig but it is also used to refer to someone who is "dirty" inside (i.e. sexually lascive or perverted). It's not used as synonimous of dirty in the meaning of lack of hygiene.
Another common profanity is d** c*** (dog G*d). Cane (dog) may be used as insult to refer to a bad person.
Those expression with God are seen as extremely impolite especially in public. They are off-limit even in the most trashy film or TV show and some people have been fired from TV shows for having used them.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

italystf said:


> Porco in Italian means pig but it is also used to refer to someone who is "dirty" inside (i.e. sexually lascive or perverted). It's not used as synonimous of dirty in the meaning of lack of hygiene.
> Another common profanity is d** c*** (dog G*d). Cane (dog) may be used as insult to refer to a bad person.
> Those expression with God are seen as extremely impolite especially in public. They are off-limit even in the most trashy film or TV show and some people have been fired from TV shows for having used them.


Yeah, porco in Portuguese can be literally dirty, but it's closer to disgusting.


----------



## alserrod

Posted in a Spanish thread:

N-121 connect Pampelune with Irun (city in the border with France). Some drivers try to take AP-8, A-1 and AP-15 / A-15... but I would recommend to take N-121. It is a quite shorter journey, free and will take less time (at A-1 there are limitations of 80 somewhere...)

And... scenics are really beutiful. I suggest you to click street view in any point of N-121 and have a look about the kind of road in a mountain area.

Belate tunnel is a 2900m tunnel that connects the Atlantic area with Pampelune. It is the longest in all the journey and located in the middle of this link
https://maps.google.es/maps?q=pampl...ona,+Navarra,+Comunidad+Foral+de+Navarra&z=11

In july 2011 a truck got fired in the middle of the tunnel. As consequences, 10 weeks tunnel cutting (and alternative is not a good road indeed) and 1,1 millions euro for tunnel refurbishment.

After some analysis the considered the risk of a vehicle to have an accident or to have a mechanical problem after a longer uphill.

The Navarra government prepared three special sites for truck parking if having mechanical problems and several signals advicing it is forbidden to entry with mechanical problems.

Take a look to the signal of "trucks with smoke are forbidden"!!!!!!!


There is a sample about a signal in five languages and a photo of another one in three languages which I think don't need translation







miliar said:


> A continuación muestro el ejemplo de unas señales que se han instalado recientemente en los accesos a los túneles de Belate y Almandotz (N-121-A, Navarra).
> 
> Según las estadísticas la mayoría de los incendios en túneles no son debidos a accidentes, sino a fallos técnicos de los vehículos que circulan por los mismos. Las tasas de averías registradas en túneles bidireccionales no urbanos es de 300-500 cada 10E+8 veh x km. Este valor se eleva en el caso de túneles con acceso en rampas de gran pendiente a 900-1900 cada 10E+8 veh x km (AIPCR, 1995). Este caso es muy frecuente en los túneles situados en zonas montañosas, como los que nos ocupan.
> 
> En julio de 2011 se produjo el incendio de un camión en el interior del túnel de Belate. No hubo daños personales, pero el incidente obligó a realizar una costosa reparación en el revestimiento y las instalaciones del túnel, con el consiguiente corte de tráfico de diez semanas de duración. El coste total de las obras realizadas fue de 1,1 millones de euros.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Fuente: Gobierno de Navarra_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Fuente: Gobierno de Navarra_
> 
> Al margen de esto, durante los últimos meses se venía detectando un número creciente de incidentes provocados por la entrada de vehículos con problemas mecánicos en el interior de estos túneles. Se observó además, por medio de las camaras instaladas en las bocas, que en muchos casos los problemas comenzaban en las rampas de acceso. Sin embargo, los vehículos no se detenían en el exterior, sino que entraban en el túnel y terminaban parando en el interior, por lo que un simple problema mecánico se convertía en un incidente más serio.
> 
> Para controlar esta situación, la consejería de Obras Públicas de Navarra ha habilitado tres zonas de parada en los accesos a los túneles para que los camiones que sufran algún tipo de problema técnico durante la subida puedan detenerse. Se ha diseñado una señalización especial, que informa a los conductores de la necesidad de parar y no entrar en los túneles en caso de avería. El coste de la actuación ha sido de casi 270.000 euros.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Fuente: Gobierno de Navarra_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Fuente: Gobierno de Navarra_
> 
> Saludos.


----------



## alserrod

Torres-Torres in Comunidad Valenciana, Spain

(translated as Towers-towers)

https://maps.google.es/maps?q=torre...=nNbBw6NKMfaR7Wa81LUskg&cbp=12,36.18,,0,13.52


----------



## alserrod

And sometimes in Spain is very usual that little villages will have part of the name according to main town in the area (other times about the name of the river, valley, etc...)

In the southern Aragon there are some villages that refers to the small village of Linares, other to Rubielos and finally to Mora.


And... Rubielos refers to Mora and conversely. Consequently... we have "Mora de Rubielos" and "Rubielos de Mora".
Nevertheless, if you only say Mora or Rubielos people will understand you are referring to the village with the word in the first position


they are only 12 km between both towns.
https://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=m...AT2_yknwvOUtjNeDTEyskc8ORMqFg&t=h&mra=ls&z=12


If someone wants to make tourism... Mora de Rubielos is nice...











but in my humble opinion, Rubielos de Mora is one of the mos beautiful towns in my region.

This is its town hall


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> And sometimes in Spain is very usual that little villages will have part of the name according to main town in the area (other times about the name of the river, valley, etc...)


Also in Italy, this is used to avoid ononimies.


----------



## CNGL

alserrod said:


> Torres-Torres in Comunidad Valenciana, Spain
> 
> (translated as Towers-towers)
> 
> https://maps.google.es/maps?q=torre...=nNbBw6NKMfaR7Wa81LUskg&cbp=12,36.18,,0,13.52


On the same sign (I put their full names): Algimia de Alfara and Alfara de la Baronía, formerly Alfara de Algimia. It was a loop, broken by the inhabitants of Alfara . But there is still Mora de Rubielos and Rubielos de Mora (As alserrod pointed out), and in Salamanca province there is Palencia de Negrillla and Negrilla de Palencia. What is even funnier is that Palencia is another province.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Málaga and Vélez-Málaga


----------



## Alex_ZR

Village of Bagremovo in Serbia, known as Brazilia in Hungarian: :lol:


----------



## SeanT

Hm! I didn´t know that "Brazilia" was this close to EU-, Hungary:lol:


----------



## SeanT

Anyway, this is not the country, (OBVIOUSLY). You write the country as Brazília ("long" i) but still pretty funny:nuts:


----------



## Verso

I didn't know Brazil was so close.


----------



## Verso

SeanT said:


> Hm! I didn´t know that "Brazilia" was this close to *EU*-, Hungary:lol:


Brazil borders EU actually (French Guiana).



SeanT said:


> Anyway, this is not the country, (OBVIOUSLY). You write the country as Brazília ("long" i) but still pretty funny:nuts:


Apparently it's a mistake and it's called Brazília as well.


----------



## SeanT

Good point Verso:lol:


----------



## x-type

one village near my hometown has nickname Brazil. i won't say why because you will call me a racist


----------



## bogdymol

x-type said:


> one village near my hometown has nickname Brazil. i won't say why because you will call me a racist


Wild guess: are there living many "brazilians"?


----------



## xrtn2

What does mean Brazilia?:|


----------



## x-type

bogdymol said:


> Wild guess: are there living many "brazilians"?


indeed


----------



## bogdymol

x-type said:


> indeed


That means we should also rename many villages to Brazil, India or Africa...


----------



## x-type

bogdymol said:


> That means we should also rename many villages to Brazil, India or Africa...


well, this one would actually be more like favela


----------



## Corvinus

bogdymol said:


> Wild guess: are there living many "brazilians"?


Calling gypsies "Brazilians" is insulting .... towards Brazilians :lol:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Eastern Europeans really don't like gypsies at all. I suppose they're just more honest about their opinions than Western Europeans


----------



## italystf

DanielFigFoz said:


> Eastern Europeans really don't like gypsies at all. I suppose they're just more honest about their opinions than Western Europeans


Since EE borders opened also here in the west they cause a lot of troubles.
And our controversial political correctness doesn't help to fight crime because every 'human must have the same right doesn't matter if he steals, rapes or kills.'


----------



## DanielFigFoz

In both the UK and Portugal most gypsies are British and Portuguese respectively. They don't have a good reputation really, but aren't hated as much as they are in Eastern Europe. I think one major difference is that British gypsies generally speak English, but with a strange accent, although some Roma gypsies speak Romanchal, although I think that's quite rare and Portuguese gypsies speak Portuguese. I have no idea what Roma sounds like, never heard it before.

Most British/Irish gypsies look no different than other people, you can't tell that they are a gypsy until they talk, as they have different accents. There are lots of Irish travellers in the UK too. In Portugal it's the opposite, you can't tell them apart by accent (at least in my town where they are relatively integrated) but they are of Roma descent and so look different. 

Personally, I have no problem with gypsies, I have had several gypsy classmates in Portugal and none of them ever bothered anyone.


----------



## Road_UK

They're good music players in Hungary.


----------



## Verso

Western European (native) gypsies are completely different from Eastern European ones. Even gypsies in NE Slovenia are different from those in SE Slovenia.


----------



## Road_UK

I've met a few gypsies from Finland. I see them all the time on the Helsinki - Stockholm ferry. I even had a few beers with them. Proud people in traditional clothing.


----------



## Sponsor

Verso said:


> Western European (native) gypsies are completely different from Eastern European ones. Even gypsies in NE Slovenia are different from those in SE Slovenia.


What is the difference? 
I guess it's all about a country they live in. Gypsies in France probably live and those in Slovakia for example, well... exist.


----------



## italystf

Those who appear often in our headlines are mostly Romanian gypsies.


----------



## bogdymol

italystf said:


> Those who appear often in our headlines are mostly Romanian gypsies.


:bowtie:


----------



## Alex_ZR

Sign of the village Bikić Do near Šid in Serbia. Serbian Cyrillic, Serbian Latin and Rusyn.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Rusyn? Never heard of it....


----------



## g.spinoza

It may be known in English as Ruthene or Ruthenian.


----------



## Penn's Woods

I recognize the word Ruthenian. But isn't that the bit of territory now in the Ukraine that was Czechoslovak between the wars?


----------



## g.spinoza

Yep. Its language is spoken in different parts of Balkans and Carpathia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyn_language


----------



## Alex_ZR

Actually it's this language:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Rusyn_language


----------



## Penn's Woods

One learns something every day.

Check out this sign, from the Pannonian Rusyn article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Novi_Sad_mayor_office.jpg


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> Yep. Its language is spoken in different parts of Balkans and Carpathia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyn_language


Where did they get Slovenia? There are (almost) no Rusyns here.


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Where did they get Slovenia? There are (almost) no Rusyns here.


Of course is a typo with country code, they meant Slovakia.

EDIT: I just corrected it.


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> Of course is a typo with country code, they meant Slovakia.
> 
> EDIT: I just corrected it.


Oh, that was fast, 79.1.102.49.


----------



## x-type

we have 2 villages where Rusyns make more than 50% of citizens


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Oh, that was fast, 79.1.102.49.


I was just tired of entering my long password


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Of course is a typo with country code, they meant Slovakia.
> 
> EDIT: I just corrected it.


It happened in an official ceremony that they played the Slovak anthem to the Slovenian president. 
This mistake is common b/c Slovaks call their country Slovensko, that sound more similar to Slovenia instead of Slovakia.
The first time I saw Slovakian coins in circulation in 2009 I though they were from Slovenia, but then I found out that it would be Slovenija and not Slovensko.


----------



## Viriatuus

Both Luik and Liège, as Lüttich as well, are names of the city. And all of them quite old.


----------



## piotr71

Del


----------



## piotr71

But none of them could be taken as native. In Liège, autochthons speak French.


----------



## Proterra

Palance said:


> Unfortunately spelled as Nimwegen, where it shoud be Nijmegen.


Why unfortunately? In the local dialect it's "Nimwegen" as well...

"Nimwegen" is the native name, Nijmegen, Nimegue, Nimega, etc. are exonyms


----------



## ChrisZwolle

City names are not spelled according to archaic spelling or dialect names. Fortunately the signs say Amsterdam and not Amstelredam or Mokum.

There is no need to make signs unnecessary cluttering by using double names, unofficial names, italics, brackets, or seeing them as an outing of politics.


----------



## Proterra

^^

Fair enough - but my point was that "Nimwegen" is not an exonym. It's neither an obsolete way of spelling as those would be "Nieuwmeghen", "Numaga" or "Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum" depending on how far back in history you go.

And about using different forms of the place name, isn't this the thing going on in Europe for already a long time? "Góra Świętej Anny" is double signed as "Sankt Annaberg", in northern Poland you'll find plenty of places with Polish/Kashubian, and in Eastern Germany you'll find places with German/Sorbian (a Polish dialect, about as far from Polish as Limburgish is from Dutch) 

Speaking about Limburgish, which I believe the dialect in Nijmegen is related to, you'll find in the southern Netherlands places signed in both spellings, such as "Roermond" as "Remunj" and "Kerkrade" as "Kirchroa".

So, personally, in the case of Nijmegen I don't see the problem that it's signed like that in Germany, as it's both the endonym for the city as well as the German name for it. It would of course be different if they would start signing "Den Haag" as "Haag" or "Den Bosch" as "Herzogenbusch"


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You are referring to city limit signs, which do not have the same function as directional signage. 

Exonyms are an outdated concept from times where we hardly crossed borders and we didn't know any foreign languages. The far majority of foreign city names do not have exonyms. Some exonyms are dying out and only important ones will likely remain (such as capitals and cities with great historic or tourist significance). 

Especially in football the endonyms are much more often used than exonyms. In the Netherlands we talk of Paris-Saint-Germain or Bayern München or AS Roma, not Parijs, Beieren or Rome.


----------



## italystf

Bayer Monaco, Rapid Vienna, Dinamo Zagabria, Stella Rossa, etc... are frequently used in Italian.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

italystf said:


> Bayer Monaco, Rapid Vienna, Dinamo Zagabria, Stella Rossa, etc... are frequently used in Italian.


I think it's interesting that in English Bayern Munich is the normal term for the club, but Barvaria Munich is never used, and Bayern Muenchen is very rare.


----------



## alserrod

It's matter of opinion of course... but I'm pretty sure that there is no language where Newcastle, Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo or Buenos Aires are translated and all of them can be translated

(Newcastle obviously the same in English, January River, St. Paul and Good Airs)


----------



## Palance

Proterra said:


> So, personally, in the case of Nijmegen I don't see the problem that it's signed like that in Germany, as it's both the endonym for the city as well as the German name for it.


It is a problem. Outside Nijmegen none uses Nimwegen, and signage should be people who are not familiair with the area of other names, but simply want to go to a city. And since 99,99% of all Dutch roadmaps (and surely navigation systems as well) show Nijmegen, that how it should be put on signage, not anything else.


----------



## volodaaaa

Broccolli said:


> Or trademark... I buy slovenian (food)=Kupujem slovensko


In Slovak language, this literally means: "I buy Slovakia"  And "slovenka" means "slovak woman".

But turning the topic back on.

I'd personally prefer the original name of the city on traffic signs. The only exception could be the case of different alphabet or script. Then the transcription could be a good decision.

This model is (except Ukrainian names) valid in Slovakia. Thus we have "Wien", "Budapest", "Miskolc", "Kittsee", "Kraków" instead of "Viedeň", "Budapešť", "Miškovec", "Kopčany" or "Krakov".

Perhaps, the most user friendly is used in Hungary (which have in my opinion the best traffic sign system I've ever seen). Hungarian alternative is displayed beside the original name. But this might be a little contraproductive e.g. you are driving towards Kassa and just after having passed the border-crossing, Kassa direction disappears.

Basically, to avoid confusions on road, uniform system should be introduced in Europe


----------



## Verso

volodaaaa said:


> In Slovak language, this literally means: "I buy Slovakia"


How much?


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> How much?


Not sure, but I guess not much.


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> It's matter of opinion of course... but I'm pretty sure that there is no language where Newcastle, Rio de Janeiro, *Sao Paulo* or Buenos Aires are translated and all of them can be translated
> 
> (Newcastle obviously the same in English, January River, St. Paul and Good Airs)


In Italian is San Paolo.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Paolo_(città)



DanielFigFoz said:


> I think it's interesting that in English Bayern Munich is the normal term for the club, but Barvaria Munich is never used, and Bayern Muenchen is very rare.


Same here, nobody says "Baviera Monaco" but always "Bayern Monaco" or simply "Bayern". Don't know the reason why Muenchen is translated but Bayern isn't.
On the countrary, there are two major Italian teams named after the English name of the city: Milan and Genoa. That's because football was introduced in Italy by Brits at the end of the XIX century and many important teams were founded back then. Initially football was popular only in Northwest Italy so there were small towns like Casale Monferrato that won several national championshpis!


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Like no one in Italy says "Inter Milan" but just "Inter".


----------



## Fatfield

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Like no one in Italy says "Inter Milan" but just "Inter".


In England the two Milan teams are commonly known just as Milan & Inter.


----------



## alserrod

If only in Spain we had foreing cities written. Nevertheless the name (there are not many differences with French and Portuguese... but if only we had... instead of pointing just the number of kilometres to the border in most of cases)


off-topic. Related to football teams, in Spain almost half of them are called "real XXXXX". In fact they are known only two of them mainly like that: Real Madrid (to distinguise from Atletico Madrid) and Real Sociedad (team from San Sebastián, could be translated as Royal Society)

But Real Valladolid, Real Betis, Real Zaragoza, Real C.D. Espanyol, Real... and so on, maybe half of them have the name of Real (translated as Royal)

It was a honour given to some teams a long time ago. Not now. 

When I watch an international match and see that a Spanish team is called only "real" I got amazed because that would be the name of half of the teams.

Except in some cases, you can say the name of the city to call the team


----------



## x-type

Italians often confuse me when they use Internazionale. not once i thought "who the hack are these now?!"


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> Italians often confuse me when they use Internazionale. not once i thought "who the hack are these now?!"


Until very recently, I didn't even know Inter's full name was Internazionale. It is never used.


----------



## Road_UK

ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz


----------



## earthJoker

x-type said:


> bitch is actually a subcategory of a *****


No, actually it's just the other way around.


----------



## x-type

earthJoker said:


> No, actually it's just the other way around.


no. i still think that not all whores are bitches


----------



## volodaaaa

x-type said:


> no. i still think that not all whores are bitches


***** is an occupation, bitch is feature.


----------



## earthJoker

x-type said:


> no. i still think that not all whores are bitches


Well but you have to agree that there are bitches who don't take money (aka sluts) so ***** can't be a subset of bitch.

Sorry for the off topic, but this is important! :bowtie:


----------



## italystf

The "cul de sac" sign (in USA and Canada) it's a linguistic issue for Italians because cul(o) means... arse.


----------



## volodaaaa

In Slovakia very very very popular photography from Montenegro with traffic sign directing to two villages named "Gorni/Dolni Kokot" which AFAIK mean Upper/Lower Rooster (Roosters on the sign).










The point is, that "Kokot" means literally "Motherf*****r" in Slovak language and "Kokoti" is plural. I think the friendly-waving policeman rapidly improved entire photography. :lol:


----------



## Lum Lumi

Nice hairstyle there.


----------



## alserrod

and what are policemen doing thereeee?


----------



## volodaaaa

alserrod said:


> and what are policemen doing thereeee?


What MotherFs often do... Probably measuring speed and taking bribes


----------



## Road_UK

italystf said:


> The "cul de sac" sign (in USA and Canada) it's a linguistic issue for Italians because cul(o) means... arse.


They are in Britain as well.


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Lum Lumi said:


> Nice hairstyle there.


----------



## x-type

Wiener.Blut said:


> http://www.bolekilolek.pl/files/postacie Bolka i Lolka.jpg


they are Poles.
these guys have Slovak blood  (although i think they are Czech, but at the beginning of the cartoon was written Československa televizia Bratislava)


----------



## volodaaaa

x-type said:


> they are Poles.
> these guys have Slovak blood  (although i think they are Czech, but at the beginning of the cartoon was written Československa televizia Bratislava)


It is not my photography, although I expect the person in the front being from Czech rep/Slovakia :lol:. But nice off-topic. I used to watch Lolek a Bolek as well as "A je to" or new series rather known as "Pat & Mat".


----------



## hofburg

in 90's there was quite a few animated series on Slovenian television from Czech r./Slovakia, and they were the best


----------



## SeanT

Lolek-Bolek or Lolka-Bolka in hungarian was one of my favourites and one more from CS...called I only remember the caracter´s name Rumszájsz I know this is the hungarian version of the name but it is the only thing I know from the forest of Jichin or something.:lol:


----------



## x-type

SeanT said:


> Lolek-Bolek or Lolka-Bolka in hungarian was one of my favourites and one more from CS...called I only remember the caracter´s name Rumszájsz I know this is the hungarian version of the name but it is the only thing I know from the forest of Jichin or something.:lol:


there are also some legendary Hungarian cartoons. Gusztáv or Ho ho horgász


----------



## DanielFigFoz

italystf said:


> The "cul de sac" sign (in USA and Canada) it's a linguistic issue for Italians because cul(o) means... arse.


Well it does mean arse of the bag.


----------



## italystf

There's a sort of sign "cul de mundo" in Ushuaia, Argentina.
In Italian slang we use "è in culo al mondo" (literaly "it's in the arse of the world") to say that a place it's far away or isolated.


----------



## Wiener.Blut

x-type said:


> they are Poles.
> these guys have Slovak blood  (although i think they are Czech, but at the beginning of the cartoon was written Československa televizia Bratislava)


there is difference between Poles and Slovenians?


----------



## hofburg

no, we are the same. slovaks on the other hand... :|


----------



## piotr71

*lm


SeanT said:


> Lolek-Bolek or Lolka-Bolka in hungarian was one of my favourites and one more from CS...called I only remember the caracter´s name Rumszájsz I know this is the hungarian version of the name but it is the only thing I know from the forest of Jichin or something.:lol:


I worked for "Studio Filmów Rysunkowych" as an animator's assistant in my early twenties. I had an unspoken pleasure to work alongside those, who invented "Bolek and Lolek". There were also North Koreans employed as animators and assistants there (funny people they were). They let us watch a Korean animated movie once. It was a thrilling story how good bears from the Northern forest fought, apparently bad wolfs from the Southern forest. Bears wore acorn made hats to which small red stars were attached. The movie was perfectly done, I think 24 frames per second, so probably as good as Disney's movies are. Koreans were very proud after presentation and we, we Poles...we just could not open our mouths for another 10 minutes. 

Until then, I had never ever seen more intrusive communist propaganda product, apart from Soviet-Russian "how to play chess" book. 



x-type said:


> there are also some legendary Hungarian cartoons. Gusztáv or Ho ho horgász


Amazing it was. But actually, it was drawn rather for grown ups than children. 



Edit: Sorry, I thought I was posting in "Roadside rest area".


----------



## x-type

Wiener.Blut said:


> there is difference between Poles and Slovenians?


yes. only one of them border with country with kangaroos and koalas.


----------



## bzbox

Bolek i Lolek is polish cartoon from Bielsko-Biała.


----------



## Fabri88

I want to show you a multilingual (even if it's now almost rusted) sign in my town, Busto Arsizio, that has Turkish language in it.

It's a sign about the truck customs → http://goo.gl/maps/tBLlj

Dogana T.I.R. - Douane - Zoll - Gümrük


----------



## Sisimoto the HUN

South-African traffic (warning) sign..










Warning sign from Spain..


----------



## italystf

Sisimoto the HUN said:


> Warning sign from Spain..


Is this for real? Because it doesn't seem very political correct.
It may be read:
"Beware of gypsy children, don't run over them"
or
"Beware of gypsy children, they may pickpocket you"


----------



## Road_UK

Not exactly a linguistic issue...


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Yeah, well.

Surely "children" in the street would have sufficed.


----------



## Iregua

The sign was put there by some gipsy families :dunno:

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2009/09/21/espana/1253552793.html

Google Translate:



> Several residents of the Roma village of As Rañas (on the outskirts of the city of La Coruña) set up a signal in the area, with the slogan "Caution, children gypsies on the road", to warn of the presence of children in an area by the passing trucks working in the construction of the AVE and urge them to slow down in the stretch.
> 
> Estrella Montoya, one of the residents of the area in which they live five gypsy families, said it was his brother who installed the sign in early summer, when the kids finished the classes, since the lack of a close or a gate on the street where they occur live caused dangerous situations, to which is added the gap of several meters, only after a guard rail road separates the train tracks.


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Not exactly a linguistic issue...


Maybe he wanted to post it in the "Strange roadsigns thread".


----------



## Verso

The sign isn't xenophobic, but "gitanos" (gypsies) is unnecessary.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^unnecessary and a bit weird.


----------



## Corvinus

In the Vatican:










(OK, to what extent is this a "road sign" ... it is placed along one of the country's few roads, after all).


----------



## Zagor666

italy :cheers:


----------



## Tallsmurf

In Wales there are many examples of place names which were originally in Welsh but which had their spellings anglicised over the years and which have now been switched back to correct Welsh spellings:

Eg Tywyn => Towyn => Tywyn, Llanelli => Llanelly => Llanelli, and it is government policy to correct all similar cases back to correct Welsh spelling 

But now there is now a row about a small village in Gwent called Varteg which the authorities want to revert to the correct spelling of Farteg. It is still pronounced with a hard V but residents think (correctly) that they will become the object of much fun....


----------



## Zagor666

gaelic in the scottish highlands :cheers:

http://www.google.de/imgres?safe=of...w=203&start=0&ndsp=55&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0,i:97


----------



## Zagor666

Germany :cheers:



Hungary :cheers:


----------



## volodaaaa

Zagor666 said:


> Hungary :cheers:


Where is that sign exactly?


----------



## Zagor666

Good question,the picture is from 1998 and i cant even remember what i had yesterday for lunch :cheers:
it must be on the M1 motorway between the Austrian-Hungarian border and Mosonmagyarovar


----------



## volodaaaa

Zagor666 said:


> Good question,the picture is from 1998 and i cant even remember what i had yesterday for lunch :cheers:
> it must be on the M1 motorway between the Austrian-Hungarian border and Mosonmagyarovar


I have not known it had been from 1998  But you are seemingly right.


----------



## Alex_ZR

At that time Hungary used green signs for highways, which was later replaced with blue. Also "utdij/toll" is now "matrica/vignette".


----------



## volodaaaa

Might be here


----------



## italystf

Zagor666 said:


> Germany :cheers:


Why they wrote Liege in both languages and Bruxelles only in German?


----------



## Verso

volodaaaa said:


> Might be here


That interchange looks like a waste of money to me, especially if you're coming from Budapest.


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> That interchange looks like a waste of money to me, especially if you're coming from Budapest.


Lol, indeed :lol: The same goes for the opposite direction.


----------



## Corvinus

italystf said:


> Why they wrote Liege in both languages and Bruxelles only in German?


There are some such "inconsistencies" on the ensemble of German motorway destination signs.

In this case, probably, _Brüssel _is so close to Brussel/Bruxelles that non-Germanophones are simply expected to understand it, while _Lüttich _is by far not as close to Liège/Luik ...


----------



## albertocsc

http://goo.gl/maps/e6QNt


Reivajar said:


> Igual que nos quejamos a veces de que en España no se respeta el estándar de señalización, o que si comentamos que la señalización catalana está a veces un poco afrancesada, os enseño señales de diseño español pero en carreteras francesas.


Already quoted in one of these treads, but that one is a good example in this one.
Sign in France. Spanish style. *One pole, three languages*. French (Espagne), Spanish (Pamplona, Urdax) and Basque (Iruña, Urdazubi; Ainhoa is Basque but is used in any language else).

Not far, you can find these:
http://goo.gl/maps/0z2vG
http://goo.gl/maps/B1wpd


----------



## Palance

Corvinus said:


> In this case, probably, _Brüssel _is so close to Brussel/Bruxelles that non-Germanophones are simply expected to understand it, while _Lüttich _is by far not as close to Liège/Luik ...


Let's solve this for the Germans 









(Just like this great Belgian way to solve the Luxemburg/Luxembourg-problem.)


----------



## alserrod

That remembers me this example.

"Matarraña / Matarranya" is one of the eastern shires of Aragon. It bounds at the same time with Catalonia and the region of Valencia.

Although Spanish is the only official language there, due to be close to Catalonia and the region of Valencia, almost all citizens are bilingual.

And their official name is also bilingual "Matarraña / Matarraña". Its capital is Valderrobres, located here
https://maps.google.es/maps?q=valde...2&t=h&hnear=Valderrobres,+Teruel,+Aragón&z=11


Their logo is this one:










Where you can see hoy they have used a "Ñ" and "NY" at the same time.


----------



## Galro

Norwegian and Russian signs in Kirkenes, Northern Norway.





























Norwegian, Kven and Sami signs elsewhere in Northern Norway:


----------



## OulaL

It isn't exactly Russian in Kirkenes - it's just Norwegian written in cyrillic alphabets.


----------



## Zagor666

This is a interesting one.Its a sign from Belgium.Alle Richtungen(all directions)is writen in german,only in german.Bütgenbach which is a village in Belgium is writen only in german but Monschau which is a village in Germany is written bilingual :nuts:




Luxembourg



Same place few years later


----------



## Palance

Montjoie (French for the German place Monschau) is not on the Belgian signs any more these days (except maybe on an old and forgotten sign). There is a Hotel Montjoie in Monschau however


----------



## wc eend

Incredible how ugly those Belgian signs are...

What about the Cyrillic in Norway, by the way? How many Russians are living up there?


----------



## Galro

wc eend said:


> What about the Cyrillic in Norway, by the way? How many Russians are living up there?


Wikipedia mention that 10% of Kirkenes' population are Russians. I think that's quite old numbers though as there have been an increase in recent years due to more liberal visa requirements, but I couldn't find any concrete numbers other than that. Many Russians from the border-region also works, do their shopping and use other services in Kirkenes. Many public buildings and stores have also adopted Cyrillic signs as a result.

Library:









Spareland mall:


----------



## Singidunum

Belarusian towns in Poland





































http://dengi.onliner.by/2013/11/04/pol-7/


----------



## Road_UK

I've driven right alongside the Belarusian border on my way to Vilnius, LT but I've never seen signs like these before.


----------



## Singidunum

Well it's just 27 towns


----------



## Langeveldt

In South Africa signs are generally in English, although in Afrikaans speaking areas they alternate between English and Afrikaans. You never see both languages on the same sign, and I have not seen this system anywhere else. Also you see our old, and new fonts in the same photo in the first photo


----------



## alserrod

Spotted in Spain. 

Oh my God!!!!!!!


----------



## Penn's Woods

Palance said:


> Let's solve this for the Germans
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Just like this great Belgian way to solve the Luxemburg/Luxembourg-problem.)


I'm not sure I'd call that a solution for signing Brussels. We've already had, somewhere on this forum, the argument about why it's OK to sign Brussels only in Dutch in the Netherlands, but surely that wouldn't apply in Germany.

What you need is Bru(ss/x)el(les). With your umlaut-in-parentheses on the U.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Penn's Woods said:


> I'm not sure I'd call that a solution for signing Brussels. We've already had, somewhere on this forum, the argument about why it's OK to sign Brussels only in Dutch in the Netherlands, but surely that wouldn't apply in Germany.
> 
> What you need is Bru(ss/x)el(les). With your umlaut-in-parentheses on the U.


:rofl:

Careful, people'll take you seriously!

Here in Aber there is is Welsh-only give way sign in McDonalds, I'll see if I can take a photo one day.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^For that matter, a solution for Luxembourg would be L(ë/u)(tz/x)e(m)b(o)u(e)rg....


----------



## Verso

^^ That doesn't work; if you take just what's outside parentheses, you get "Leburg", which means nothing. "Bruel" (for Brussels) doesn't mean anything either. "Luxemb(o)urg" OTOH is ok, although it looks silly on signs.


----------



## volodaaaa

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^For that matter, a solution for Luxembourg would be L(ë/u)(tz/x)e(m)b(o)u(e)rg....


haha :lol: regarding name of the thread, this is perhaps the best post so far. I have just tried to read it at once and totally looked like Mr. Bean.


----------



## MattiG

alserrod said:


> Spotted in Spain.
> 
> Oh my God!!!!!!!


Oh shit...


----------



## italystf

MattiG said:


> Oh shit...


Pot is the slang for the substance that those workers probably took. :lol:


----------



## Gil

MattiG said:


> Oh shit...


The letter stencils aren't backwards when they're laid down for painting, so how did they manage to spell it backwards?!


----------



## volodaaaa

^^


----------



## piotr71

Not really a road sign, but undoubtly a linguistic issue.


----------



## alserrod

I tried to read the Spanish version and understood nothing. Thus read the English version mandaroty...


----------



## piotr71

Weirdly, I understand Spanish version better than Polish . I do not know for sure but Dutch text seems to be quite correct.


----------



## Palance

The Dutch words are OK (except for the use of capitals and the excessive usage of spaces - in Dutch words may be combined to new words),

I should say, if one should use only the words on that sign: Slechts Ford-vloot, geen overnachtingsparkeerplaats. Not perfect either, but more understandable.


----------



## italystf

piotr71 said:


> Not really a road sign, but undoubtly a linguistic issue.


100% Google Translate

And weird those brits, they put Turkish but no French


----------



## alserrod

Nearest Spanish translation...

"solo" (only) shouldn't have an accent. The accent is used for questions (the same difference in French between "que" and "quel/quelle" for instance), but let's assume that it is a minor mistake.
But... "solo" must be in the begining of the sentence as well as "only" goes at the end ("only" and "alone" are translated as "solo". If someone reads "solo" at the end, means "alone", never "only")
That detail requires to read twice or three times the sentence.

No (maybe the most important word) is written as it... N-O. Two letter. "N." makes misunderstanding.

Supposing "No" would be correctly written (instead of "n.") and parking would be the second word it would have some sense. A preposition would be missing yet but would have sense.

But as I read it, I really find no sense. It is the difference between a Latin root language and a non-Latin root Language.


----------



## Boltzman

The main issue is having considered English "No" as a short way of the word "number", which is frequently shortened to "no."


----------



## rdgnrdgn

Even Google Translate does a better job than the translater. I understood nothing from Turkish (actually half-Turkish half-English) version. :nuts:


----------



## garethni

piotr71 said:


> Not really a road sign, but *undoubtly* a linguistic issue.


No doubt at all. :lol:


----------



## zsimi80

I haven't seen like this in Hungary:










Szentgotthárd is a Hungarian city in Hungary.
Monoster is Slovenian name of Szentgotthárd.

They put Slovenian name at first place, after that Hungarian.

It is confusing :S


----------



## Alex_ZR

lastsamurai said:


> That's not photoshop
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbëreshë_people#Language


As I already said:


> My mistake. I've found it on Google Street View:
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/sfEpJ
> 
> Use of Arial font made me suspicious, because Italy uses different font on traffic signs.


----------



## volodaaaa

Not exactly a road sign, but one of the most multilingual inscription in Bulgaria - here

Something in Hungarian, Slovak, Polish, Greek....


----------



## x-type

x-type said:


> bilingual signs in Croatia (Italian-Croatian). it wouldn't be anything weird if it was in Istria. but these villages are some 250 km of air line to the east, in Western Slavonia, precisely - here.. absolutely weird location for Italian minority
> (trivia: that area has significant Czech minority and Czech/Croatian bilingual signs are not weird there)
> 
> http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a203/ixic/IMG_1105.jpg
> http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a203/ixic/IMG_1106.jpg
> http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a203/ixic/IMG_1107.jpg


does somebody remember my post about Italian minority in east-central Croatia? well, now I am presenting you vice-versa thing: croatian minority in central Italy 
https://maps.google.hr/maps?q=Monte...d=aWYZamNUvI96L2v8Z-gjnw&cbp=12,51.99,,2,1.91
https://maps.google.hr/maps?q=Monte...=abzMdscvCws1Gq2IsXhF8g&cbp=12,215.57,,2,5.63

there are 3 croatian villages there: Montemitro, Acquaviva Collecroce and San Felice del Molise.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Village in Romania with Croatian majority (Lupac):

http://goo.gl/maps/fmN5R

Carașova:

http://goo.gl/maps/hUYWH


----------



## x-type

Alex_ZR said:


> Village in Romania with Croatian majority (Lupac):
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/fmN5R
> 
> Carașova:
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/hUYWH


and Romanian village in Croatia 
https://maps.google.hr/maps?q=letaj...d=R4sy2CecF-dFg9Xhp-wBFg&cbp=12,339.8,,0,4.84


----------



## volodaaaa

Croatian Village in Hungary


----------



## Alex_ZR

volodaaaa said:


> Croatian Village in Hungary



Serbian villages in Hungary

Serbian villages in Hungary

Serbian villages in Hungary

Serbian villages in Hungary

At the end, only village in Hungary where Serbs are majority:

http://goo.gl/maps/blXSV


----------



## volodaaaa

Alex_ZR said:


> Serbian villages in Hungary
> 
> Serbian villages in Hungary
> 
> Serbian villages in Hungary
> 
> Serbian villages in Hungary
> 
> At the end, only village in Hungary where Serbs are majority:
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/blXSV



Slovak one in Serbia (Bačski Petrovac)









It is funny to talk with Slovak from Vojvodina, because, their language (event the word order) is so archaic. Like some of my English "collocations" ;-) Therewith :lol:


----------



## Alex_ZR

volodaaaa said:


> It is funny to talk with Slovak from Vojvodina, because, their language (event the word order) is so archaic. Like some of my English "collocations" ;-) Therewith :lol:


Maybe because they live far away from Slovakia and they kept original Slovak.  Favourite color of Slovaks here is blue (houses, gates, women's dresses).


----------



## Kemo

Bilingual signs in Poland:

Lithuanian
http://maps.google.pl/?ll=54.190968...oid=XuSJloeqfD07Je8QKYvtDQ&cbp=12,47.3,,0,1.8

German
http://maps.google.pl/?ll=50.453406...d=2uMIK_xns3ecSy_Y7ebTAw&cbp=12,85.6,,0,10.31

Belarussian
http://maps.google.pl/maps?q=orla&h...d=U-BAEkXo-rLrnTOzeQe3Iw&cbp=12,88.79,,2,2.23


----------



## nbcee

Alex_ZR said:


> Serbian villages in Hungary
> 
> Serbian villages in Hungary
> 
> Serbian villages in Hungary
> 
> Serbian villages in Hungary
> 
> At the end, only village in Hungary where Serbs are majority:
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/blXSV


Good picks: Battonya/Bătania/Батања and Hercegszántó/Santovo/Сантовоare are among the few villages in Hungary where the signs are written in three languages.


----------



## Alex_ZR

nbcee said:


> Good picks: Battonya/Bătania/Батања and Hercegszántó/Santovo/Сантовоare are among the few villages in Hungary where the signs are written in three languages.


Another example: Magyarcsanád/Cenadul Unguresc/Чанад

http://goo.gl/maps/jEaqq

This one is with German and Croatian (Mohács/Mohatsch/Mohač)

http://goo.gl/maps/UsnPV


----------



## volodaaaa

And this require pretty low speed to be legible 

http://goo.gl/maps/Qc5hb


----------



## bogdymol

nbcee said:


> Good picks: Battonya/Bătania/Батања and Hercegszántó/Santovo/Сантовоare are among the few villages in Hungary where the signs are written in three languages.





Alex_ZR said:


> Another example: Magyarcsanád/Cenadul Unguresc/Чанад
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/jEaqq


I drove through those villages a lot of times, but everytime I like to "read" (in my mind) their names in all 3 languages when I see that sign while driving.


----------



## nbcee

Alex_ZR said:


> Multilingual sign at the entrance of Zrenjanin, Serbia:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From above:
> -Serbian (Cyrillic)
> -Serbian (Latin)
> -Hungarian
> -Slovak
> -Romanian
> Reason is that all these language are in use in city administration.


My favorite without any doubt. :cheers:


----------



## Alex_ZR

^^ :applause: for finding this post, I posted it about two years ago.


----------



## Kanadzie

It is amusing how the name of the town is basically the same in all languages, but then, Magyar :lol:


----------



## volodaaaa

Kanadzie said:


> It is amusing how the name of the town is basically the same in all languages, but then, Magyar :lol:


It was probably renamed during commies' times and only Hungarian name remained original.


----------



## Singidunum

True, it's one of the rare cities that changed it's name and it was done because it was called Petrovgrad before after King Peter I. Zrenjanin is the last name of Žarko Zrenjanin, a partisan. Hungarian name didn't have to be changed because it wasn't a problem Big Becskerek, that's all, but Petrovgrad had to go. Zrenianin and Zreňanin shouldn't be used IMO because it's a mockery. It's a last name and there is no historic different spelling or something. Becicherecul Mare would make sense, but apparently local Romanians don't use that anymore. It's a good will anyway, because Romanians make up only 0.83% of the city population. Hungarian population is bigger, but that's mostly because in the 1970s a nearby Hungarian village Muzlja was merged with Zrenjanin.


----------



## Copperknickers

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...Qv71yr15pTQ_40jbDzY2BYwV-Wbb2h3gTN-qHL8Pm9Vew

Classic McDonalds mistake in Scotland. Not even bilingual: monolingual, in a language that nobody can understand (there are more people in Scotland that speak Urdu than Gaelic).


----------



## volodaaaa

nbcee said:


> I prefer settlement-level too. Why? Your example is just one side of the coin. The other side is: When a country wants to f*@# with minorities it can mess with them using the territorial-level legislation as an excuse. I mean if the minorities of that country are concentrated to a few villages they can't reach significant levels in a county or district. Or *it can draw the boundaries of those districts in a way that it would make the minorities less significant*.
> 
> For example Lórév/Ловра has a Serb majority but there are only ~300 people living in the village. So if Hungary would choose to use settlement-level legislation and we would look at the Ráckeve district (pop.: ~ 36 000 with a few hundred Serbs*) or Pest county** (pop.: ~1 230 000 with ~900 Serbs) it would be a huge disadvantage for them. Luckily this isn't the case.
> 
> *Sorry I don't know the exact number as the districts were only re-created in 2011. I'll try to add the Serbs from the villages of the district if I can find appropriate data for this.
> **Note that Budapest is not part of pest county.


Slovak district of Nové Zámky perhaps? :nuts:


----------



## Singidunum

Makes sense, although it's worth noting that there were no map redrawings in a long time (and even then in the 1970s, rural Hungarian population around Zrenjanin got an advantage as they became significant part of the large city instead of just another village). Plus I can only imagine the response from the Hungarian Party if anyone tried to mess with their moniez like that.

Also it's worth noting that legally that village with minorities each being even under 1% doesn't have to use those plates. It's just a good will, and a sign that even if they would redraw the map the languages would still be used. For an example in Novi Sad, a pretty large city, where no minority passes the threshold, still many languages are used (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...or_office.jpg/400px-Novi_Sad_mayor_office.jpg) even Rusyn which is used by 0,81% of the population. So if Lovra was merged into Ráckeve (Srpski Kovin), under this recipe, it wouldn't mean that Serbian would be no longer used in Lovra, but opposite, Serbian should then be used in Ráckeve as well.


----------



## nbcee

volodaaaa said:


> Slovak district of Nové Zámky perhaps? :nuts:


It's better that you've said it not me.


----------



## Kanadzie

This language debate is kind of amusing. In Montreal, Canada 20% or so of population is English-speaking, but English langauge public signs (roads, etc) are essentially illegal, and if a business owner puts a sign in English only, he can be fined, even though, in districts of the city, English-speaking people are more than 50% of population :lol: Older (1950's) street signs that were bilingual (rue XXX Street) have tape placed over the "street" to make it unilingual.


----------



## Singidunum

I think that usage of bilingual plates in places where a minority is in such small numbers is just a symbolic gesture, it has no practical use (and likely no member of the minority community even speaks that language). I don't think the cost is really an issue, you put them up once and that's it. In Croatia where plates even in cities with 30% minority are smashed every week in violent gatherings surely do create large expenses, but this is not really the case in some random villages around Zrenjanin. So while I don't think there is any practical use of those plates, I am not against them. It's a tolerant multicultural environment, and these plates are a form of an external expression of this.


----------



## volodaaaa

nbcee said:


> It's better that you've said it not me.


Sorry for that, but fortunately, districts are nothing but statistical units. bilingual signs and official forms are based on 15 % presence of certain minority, so entire southern Slovakia is full of them. After Mr. Slota did not make it to parliament, apparent tensions about Hungarian minority are gone and it is more convenient.


----------



## nbcee

volodaaaa said:


> Sorry for that, but fortunately, districts are nothing but statistical units. bilingual signs and official forms are based on 15 % presence of certain minority, so entire southern Slovakia is full of them. After Mr. Slota did not make it to parliament, apparent tensions about Hungarian minority are gone and it is more convenient.


Yepp it's good now that he's gone. I hope that things will get better and better.

p.s.: It's another coincidence: I know a girl from Érsekújvár/Nové Zámky too.


----------



## Verso

volodaaaa said:


> After Mr. Slota did not make it to parliament, apparent tensions about Hungarian minority are gone and it is more convenient.


It's also much, MUCH easier for the Slovenian minority in the Austrian Carinthia without Jörg Haider. He was extremely annoying (RIP), but now the Slovenian minority doesn't have any problems at all.


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> It's also much, MUCH easier for the Slovenian minority in the Austrian Carinthia without Jörg Haider. He was extremely annoying (RIP), but now the Slovenian minority doesn't have any problems at all.


IMHO it was opposite. They (certain politicians) have problems with minorities :lol:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> This language debate is kind of amusing. In Montreal, Canada 20% or so of population is English-speaking, but English langauge public signs (roads, etc) are essentially illegal, and if a business owner puts a sign in English only, he can be fined, even though, in districts of the city, English-speaking people are more than 50% of population :lol: Older (1950's) street signs that were bilingual (rue XXX Street) have tape placed over the "street" to make it unilingual.


It is odd, though, that some street names where the proper part of the name is translatable into French haven't been: "Rue City-Councillors" "Rue University"....

It's also interesting that signage on the Champlain Bridge is in standard Quebec format but bilingual. ("Rue Notre-Dame St") Presumably because it's a federal facility.

And last time I was there I think I spotted an English-only XXX St. sign someone missed, tucked away in a sort of back street near where I was staying (Parc near Sherbrooke).


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## Kanadzie

City-Councillors is technically French (the - ) and University refers specifically to the English-language university at the end of the street  Some other ones disappeared, like Mountain St becoming "rue de la Montagne", though it is said to refer to a person named Mountain and not Mount Royal... this was a huge political debate in the 70's and 80's that calmed down after most of the English speakers moved to Toronto. You can still kind of tell someone's roots in the area by their reference to streets like this, someone who lived here from before would probably say, for example, "St Lawrence" while even an anglophone who came from elsewhere more recently would say "Saint Laurent" in the French way...

Those bilingual signs "Avenue Atwater Avenue" on the approach to the bridge are bilingual to follow Federal law, and signs are maintained by the Fed, you can note the "fin limite MTQ / PJCCI-JCCBI" small signs on the shoulder where the jurisdiction changes from the province to the "Federal Bridge Corporation"

There are still a few such signs as you note, one I used to park near on a small street (more an alley) was replaced though...


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## Penn's Woods

^^Yes, we wouldn't hyphenate "city councillors" in English (and my American spell-check doesn't like the double L), but if the street was named to honor the members of the city council wouldn't "Conseillers-Municipaux" or something be the appropriate way to do that in French? That's what I meant by them not bothering to translate the street name.

(And I'm old enough, and have been going to Montreal often enough, to remember when one of the department stores' - Holt's or Ogilvy's? - ads in the Gazette gave their address as "Sherbrooke at Mountain")


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## Sisimoto the HUN

volodaaaa said:


> IMHO it was opposite. They (certain politicians) have problems with minorities :lol:


Yep, that those minorities still existing..


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## nbcee

Sisimoto the HUN said:


> Yep, that those minorities still existing..


Sadly all across Eastern Europe you can find parties and politicians like this. hno:


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## volodaaaa

nbcee said:


> Sadly all across Eastern Europe you can find parties and politicians like this. hno:


Best solution is to ignore them. Because, it is nothing but political capital. 

Sometimes it is better to invest in xenophobia, sometimes is better to be conciliatory.  Those people would never ever fight for their nation. You can see it at the example of former Yugoslavia. War leaders are arrested in Haag in luxurious jail house with internet, football playground etc. and I bet, they had never been dressed in military uniform, except case of photo shooting for same propaganda posters. And plenty of people were shooting each other for them and their ideology.


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## Verso

Slovenian in Trieste! :runaway: Porca miseria! :rant: 









http://bora.la/2012/11/21/francesco...aco-provveda-a-fornite-immediati-chiarimenti/


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## italystf

Trieste city is not bilingual, many villages in Carso are. This is a mobile temporary sign, probably was intended for a bilingual place and then reused elsewhere. I don't see a reason to became mad about this, I doubt that two words in Slovenia would insult the "Italian sentiment" especially in a touristic city where it's normal to read notices in 4-5 languages.


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## Verso

italystf said:


> I don't see a reason to became mad about this


Translated from the website: "The photo has sparked strong controversy not only among the public but also in politics." :lol:

--------------------------

Anyway... Here is a bilingual sign in Italian and Resian:









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bilingual_road_sign_in_Resia-Rezjia.jpg

It's also the first time I see Udine signed in Resian (didn't even know how it was called):









http://bardo-lusevera-news.blogspot.com/2011_12_04_archive.html

Something interesting:


> The Slovene name _Videm_ (with final -_m_) is a hypercorrection of the local Slovene name _Vidan_ (with final -_n_), based on settlements named _Videm_ in Slovenia. The Slovene linguist Pavle Merkù has characterized the Slovene form _Videm_ as an "idiotic 19th-century hypercorrection."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udine#Name


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## Verso

Lmao, Resians call us "Buške". 









http://valresia-resije.blogspot.com/2011/12/nuove-tabelle-bilingui-resiano-italiano.html

Apparently this is the reason for that:


> The Resians call their language _rozajanski_, while they frequently refer to the Slovene language as _*tabuški*_, meaning 'the one from Bovec', which is the first large Slovene settlement on the other side of the Kanin mountain range.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resia,_Friuli#Language_and_traditions


It's funny, because you'd expect a Slovenian dialect to call Slovenia "Slovenija" or something like that. Other than that, in standard Slovene "buške" means something you get if you hit yourself in the head.


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## hofburg

because apparently they never went further than Bovec


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## italystf

Verso said:


> this sign shows Bovec (Plezzo) and Kranjska Gora (Monte Cragnisca), Gorjansko (Goriano), Lipica (Lipizza), Osp (Ospo), Socerb (San Servolo), Plavje (Plavia), Kolomban (Colombano, which is even bilingual), I think I've also seen Kozina (without Cosina) .


Among these, Lipizza is the only one I usually heard. However, the Slovenian and Italian names have the same pronunciation. There's even the expression "cavalli lipizzani" (Lipica's horses) for the equine race. But also Lipica is found on some Italian texts.
Bovec and Kranjska Gora are quite well-known in Italy as touristic centres, but they are referred with Slovenian names even in Italy. Kranjska Gora was never under Italian rule so the Italian name is just made up (Gora is translated with Monte and Cragnisca it's probably a phonetic calque of Kranjska). Until today, I didn't even know we had an exonym for Kranjska Gora. It's comparable to Villaco (for Villach) or Oristagno (for Arnoldstein).
Other places (Gorjansko, Socerb, Osp, Plavje, Kolomban) are just villages, relevant only because they are border crossings (like Fernetti and Rabuiese, albeit less busy and more local). It's difficult to tell whether the Italian or Slovenian name is more common, since those places aren't mentioned that often.
On the other hand, it's extremely strange to hear an Italian saying or reading in an Italian text Koper, Piran, Izola, Portoroz, Umag, Porec, Rovinj, Opatja, Pula, Rijeka, Zadar, Split. Italian exonyms are always used. Dalmatian islands and small towns on the Dalmatian coast are instead only referred in Croatian, although they all have Italian exonyms.
I find very strange the sign with Kobarid only, since Caporetto is very famous in Italy for the WWI battle and almost nobody know Kobarid.


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## Verso

italystf said:


> I find very strange the sign with Kobarid only, since Caporetto is very famous in Italy for the WWI battle and almost nobody know Kobarid.


And even Sloveni*j*a.  Of those villages, Italians probably say Ospo (because of the river) and Colombano (because it's bilingual). I don't know about others.


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## volodaaaa

italystf said:


> I noticed that Austria never uses German exonims on its signs, just local names (no trace of Prag, Brunn, Pressburg, Marburg, Laibach and Weiden, I wonder if those are still used in everyday speech).
> 
> EDIT: among these, only Prag and Brunn are used on de.wikipedia, so other are probably archaic.
> Only it.wikipedia keeps using Italian exonims even when they are never used anymore. Yes, we go to holiday to Parenzo, Pola or Fiume where also some Italians live. Or also to Zara or Spalato. But nobody say that he went to Lesina island (Hvar) or Capocesto (Primosten).  And Ragusa is in Sicily, not in Dalmatia. And I never heard someone arriving in Greece with the ferry to Gomenizza :lol: , only to Igoumenitsa, but still, Italian wikipedia policies requires the use of all exonims even when they're ridiculous.


Exonyms are interesting issue. I still don't know how to take them. Somehow, the original names sounds better to me, but only in some cases.

Speaking of Pressburg, there are lot of streets in world named Pressburg street, but it is after Pressburg peace (signed in Bratislava/Pressburg), no after city itself.

Colloquially, i always use Zagreb, Graz, Györ, Pécs, Linz, Oradea, Thessaloniki, Szeged, Miskolc or Cluj-Napoca in my speech instead of well defined, rather archaic exonyms (Záhreb, Štajerský Hradec, Päťkostolie, Linec, Veľký Varadín, Solún, Segedín, Miškovec, Koložvár).

But I use Slovak exonyms for Paris, London or Belgrade at the same time.

Personally, I don't like using exonyms, because not every city is defined and it indeed sounds ridiculously to me to refer Viedeň, Štajerský Hradec, Hainburg or Wolfsthall at once .


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## italystf

Verso said:


> No, even this new sign only shows Poreč.


Maybe Slovenian bilinguism law doesn't mandate the bilinguism for Croatian places signposted in Slovenia, so they choosed Porec that is more used internationally than Parenzo. But then, they should have skipped pola too to be consistent.
Is Pula the only city with a different name in Slovenian and Croatian (Pula\Pulj)?


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## italystf

volodaaaa said:


> Speaking of Pressburg, there are lot of streets in world named Pressburg street, but it is after Pressburg peace (signed in Bratislava/Pressburg), no after city itself.


Obviously old names are still used when commemorating historical events. It would be ridiculous to talk about the siege of Saint Petersburg or the battle of Volgograd during WWII.


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## Verso

italystf said:


> Is Pula the only city with a different name in Slovenian and Croatian (Pula\Pulj)?


We don't really use it though, we call it 'Pula'. We call Rijeka 'Reka' (like its inhabitants actually call it) and theoretically Karlovac is 'Karlov*e*c' and Sisak 'Sis*e*k' (and basically all other settlements with such an ending, but we don't really use it). Interestingly, there's a village called Grad*a*c in Slovenia.


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## matija

Verso said:


> and theoretically Karlovac is 'Karlovec' and Sisak 'Sisek' (and basically all other settlements with such an ending, but we don't really use it).


Sisak and Karlovac were originally called _Sisek_ and _Karlovec_ in their native dialects as well, but the ending changed due to migrations of people (speakers who use the -ak/-ac endings became dominant). _-ec_ is still pretty common in Central and Northern Croatia (Čakovec, Brdovec, Ivanec, etc.).



Verso said:


> Interestingly, there's a village called Grad*a*c in Slovenia.


Looking at the map, the village seems to be located in Bela Krajina. The name could have been perhaps given by the Slavs who migrated there from the south-east (during the Ottoman onslaught).


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## x-type

Verso said:


> We call Rijeka 'Reka' (like its inhabitants actually call it)


:? :?
where the hack did you hear that?


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## matija

x-type said:


> :? :?
> where the hack did you hear that?


That's how the old natives of Rijeka used to call it (but not anymore). Some of them called it _Reka_, some _Rika_ (the accent was on the last syllable, different than now).


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## xrtn2

Some spanish signs in Brazil


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## VITORIA MAN

no se adelante ( ????? )


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## alserrod

WTF...

"no se adelante" = "do not overpass yourself"

"no adelante" = "do not overpass"


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## VITORIA MAN

me ha hecho gracia la expresion


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## italystf

xrtn2 said:


> Some spanish signs in Brazil


Are there some Spanish-speaking minorities there? Or are them near the border with a Spanish-speaker country?


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## alserrod

to my best knowledge, they aren't.

When they speak in Spanish it is quite easy to guess if it is a Portuguese or Brazilian who speaks, either if his mother language is the same. Portuguese are quite used to hear and use Spanish, Brazilians not so much even if almost all neighbour countries use that language.

I always remember a long time ago a Portuguese footballer who, speaking in Spanish, had an accuracy almost perfect and no accent. Later, any Brazilian one... is often to have a translator for first months either if languages are so close.


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## DanielFigFoz

alserrod said:


> Portuguese are quite used to hear and use Spanish.


Not so sure about that.


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## volodaaaa

alserrod said:


> WTF...
> 
> "no se adelante" = "do not overpass yourself"
> 
> "no adelante" = "do not overpass"


Johny, la gente esta mi loca, wtf


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## Alex_ZR

Billingual sign (Serbian and Slovak) in Aradac, Vojvodina, Serbia.


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## Corvinus

Bilingual signs spotted in St. Moritz, Graubünden, Switzerland
(Graubünden is the only canton with _three _official languages: German, Italian and Rumantsch)

1. German first










2. Italian first


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## Alex_ZR

"The town's hall" obviously isn't correct translation... hno:
These tourist signs in Zrenjanin were installed in 2008, but nobody cares for this wrong translation...


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## Verso

nestvaran said:


>


The bottom picture could be sent for banner.


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## Corvinus

volodaaaa said:


> Intelligent nationalist is such oxymoron.


Let's not mix up "nationalist" and "chauvinist". The former, IMO, is someone with strong feelings for, and concerned with the well-being of his country/homeland/nation. I see nothing problematic there, and nothing that excludes intelligence. 
Being chauvinist is another thing - regarding other countries and nations as "inferior" is indeed an attitude that can't be called intelligent. 



Road_UK said:


> They should leave public street furniture alone. They are there for a reason, which doesn't include sorting out political differences. You see the same in Belgium at times...


+1

... and not only Belgium - it is also rampant on Corsica for example with French names. So, not a phenomenon limited to the Balkans and Visegrád states.


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## Verso

Not at all, it happens in Austria and Italy as well.


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## HRHB

nestvaran said:


> This is also an issue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sprayed latin on signs in Republika Srpska is too.


It depends where you are. In the "croatian" part of BiH (e.g. Hercegovina, most parts of Srednja Bosna..) the cyrillic is sprayed. In RS it's latin and sometimes, like in your picture, both are sprayed, mostly when a croatian city is signed.


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## volodaaaa

Corvinus said:


> Let's not mix up "nationalist" and "chauvinist". The former, IMO, is someone with strong feelings for, and concerned with the well-being of his country/homeland/nation. I see nothing problematic there, and nothing that excludes intelligence.


Don't get me wrong but I've never understood why should I be proud of my nation or country.

Okay, let's say that I like Carpathian arch landscape, the look on it takes my breath away - snow covered wooden huts with smoking chimneys... nice . But the Carpathian mountain range was formed in mesozoic when humans have not been even evolved yet (!!!) so tell me what it has to do with current nations? Sweet nothing. The snow is specific form of precipitation in modest climatic area during one of alternating of seasons. Together with smoking chimneys (result of cold-hot air compound) it is pure physics. Physics would work whenever the certain area had been occupied by Hungarians, Serbs, Spaniards, Britons, Chines, etc. etc.

Or cities. Budapest is beautiful city with genius loci. But imagine Hungarian had been assimilated. Not literally, but culturally. The same people with the same DNA would have built Budapest, but would have been let's say Germans. Only János Lével, proud Hungarian would have been called Hans Blatt, proud German.

And speaking of countries, why could not I be proud of Central Europe, or Europe, or Earth, or district, or my municipality, my city borough, or my street, or my floor, or my room, or my bed, or my ass...


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## Road_UK

or your dick...


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## italystf

In many cases the beauty of a place is related to the country who rules it. There are many places in the world that are very beautiful but they are out of most tourists' reach because those countries are dangerous due to conflicts, instability, epidemies and have little or no structures to receive tourists.
Having beautiful places isn't enough, a country should also be able to preserve and promote them.
The opposite case are places of touristic interest created from nothing, like Las Vegas or Dubai. Those countries were smart to create and promote touristic attractions in places that previously had none.


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## DanielFigFoz

This photo was taken by someone called Kieron who uploaded it to Sabre. 

Anyway, it shows a monolingual Welsh sign in England (for Bangor-is-y-Coed/Bangor-on-Dee). Normally Welsh places are signed only in English in England, and I'm not even sure if signing them in Welsh is legal, though I'm not complaining.


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## Corvinus

One I caught in Sirmione, Lago di Garda (I)


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## Vaud

John Maynard said:


> SBB/CFF/FFS have forgotten to insert this warning in French, the second Swiss national language :lol:!


That's because it's not a CFF train station.


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## Penn's Woods

New Hampshire says "Welcome - Bienvenue" when you enter the state. Even down south, from Vermont.


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## italystf

Verso said:


> Not at all, it happens in Austria and Italy as well.


Was the former Carintia governor Joerg Heider who removed a Slovenian language sign?


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## Verso

italystf said:


> Was the former Carintia governor Joerg Heider who removed a Slovenian language sign?











http://diepresse.com/home/politik/innenpolitik/580834/Chronologie_Der-Streit-um-die-Ortstafeln


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## alserrod

It is just a local road, in the limit of Aragon-Catalonia

The same (not exactly the same text but quite similar) text in both signals but different language

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.3929...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1snSvXmCmQO4REs43qWAVYAw!2e0


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## Verso

http://goo.gl/maps/rHEE9

In Maribor they have signs for Graz, but they just say "Gradec".


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## Penn's Woods

Penn's Woods said:


> I could come up with a few if I felt like expending the mental energy (I've heard St. John's*, Newfoundland, referred to in French as "Saint-Jean, Terre-Neuve."), but I think the days when Anglophones called Trois-Rivières "Three Rivers" are long gone.
> 
> *Always spelled "St.," while Saint John, New Brunswick, is always spelled out - "Saint" - to help distinguish them.
> 
> :cheers:


Yes, I'm quoting a two-year-old post of my own...digging through this thread looking for something (a particularly egregious Belgian sign)....

Grand Falls/Grand-Sault, New (or Nouveau) Brunswick. :cheers:


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## Road_UK

You're looking for this one, aren't you.










A pint when you dare to post it on the Cafe.be thread :lol:


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## Penn's Woods

^^That'll be a Chimay Rouge, please.


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## Road_UK

You only posted a link. I posted the real thing. I'm in the mood for red wine tonight.


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## Penn's Woods

Oh, who has time for that sort of thing: took long enough just to find it.

The Beaujolais nouveau's decent this year.


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## Road_UK

I've got a nice bottle of Pays d'Oc which I will open up shortly. I mainly drink French wines, but also Italian, Spanish, Californian, Australian and South African. I can't stand that Austrian stuff...


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## ChrisZwolle

Get a room, you lovebirds...


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## Penn's Woods

^^It'd take more than a Chimay Rouge, a bottle of Pays d'Oc and a bottle of Beaujolais nouveau. The Austrian wine, maybe....


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## volodaaaa

Road_UK said:


> I've got a nice bottle of Pays d'Oc which I will open up shortly. I mainly drink French wines, but also Italian, Spanish, Californian, Australian and South African. I can't stand that Austrian stuff...


Dude, white South-african wine sounds pretty racist :hmm:


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## Road_UK

I drink red only.


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## piotr71

Road_UK said:


> I've got a nice bottle of Pays d'Oc which I will open up shortly. I mainly drink French wines, but also Italian, Spanish, Californian, Australian and South African. I can't stand that Austrian stuff...


Have you tried Austrian (actually German, but also used in Czech Republik and in Austria) appellations (qualitatswein mit pradikat) _beerenauslese, trocken beerenaslese or eisewein_? 

By the way, my favourite are Tokaji Aszu. Sadly, there is no very wide choice of that delicious wine in the UK. Actually, only Waitros and M&S sell them in quite high prices, relatively 23 pounds for 1/2 litre of 9 year old Aszu 5 and 27 for 13 year old Aszu4. It was also available in Morrisons until recently in really good price (17 pounds) but I think I was only person buying it, so they cut the price by 3 and sold it out. 

Well, to be at least a little on topic, it's probably worth to mention that Tokaj region is divided by Slovak-Hungarian (formerly Czechoslovak - Hungarian border demarcated after treaty of Trianon) border and both sides have rights to produce Tokaj, called alsoTokajské.


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## Road_UK

No I can't say I have. It's usually Blaufränkisch or Zweigelt around here. But I love the good ol' hazelnutschnapps...


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## Corvinus

Russian "avtostrada na Berlin" sign in post(?)-WWII Germany, posted here
There is speculation about the date of this photo; it could be from the late stage of WWII or (more likely) from shortly after the war. The former GDR did have sings in Cyrillic until the 1950's, especially in areas of Soviet troop concentration.


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## italystf

Corvinus said:


> Russian "avtostrada na Berlin" sign in post(?)-WWII Germany, posted here
> There is speculation about the date of this photo; it could be from the late stage of WWII or (more likely) from shortly after the war. The former GDR did have sings in Cyrillic until the 1950's, especially in areas of Soviet troop concentration.


I have no clue that the Russian word for motorway is "avtostrada". It's obviously a calque from Italian. I know that the word autostrada is used also in Rumanian, Polish and Albanian.
However, for Russian language, Google suggests also автомагистраль that should be something like "avtomagistral".


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

My dictionary tells me that both avtostrada and avtomagistral are correct in Russian


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## Road_UK

italystf said:


> I have no clue that the Russian word for motorway is "avtostrada". It's obviously a calque from Italian. I know that the word autostrada is used also in Rumanian, Polish and Albanian.
> However, for Russian language, Google suggests also автомагистраль that should be something like "avtomagistral".


Even the Flemish use autostrada at times or even autopiste. As long as it isn't Dutch...


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## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Even the Flemish use autostrada at times or even autopiste. As long as it isn't Dutch...


They don't use autoroute either? They want to be different with they Wallonian cousins?


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## CNGL

Road_UK said:


> Even the Flemish use autostrada at times or even autopiste. As long as it isn't Dutch...


They don't use _autosnelweg_? :nuts:


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## Road_UK

They certainly don't use autoroute, they use autosnelweg sporadically, but if they can do it the Mediterranean way they will. After all it's south of Holland and the weather is always nice.


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## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Even the Flemish use autostrada at times or even autopiste. As long as it isn't Dutch...


Oh, come now.


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## Penn's Woods

italystf said:


> They don't use autoroute either? They want to be different with they Wallonian cousins?


It's not a matter of being different - they don't speak the same language.

English-speaking Québécois (or Quebeckers) do say "autoroute," though, pronounced as if it were an English word.


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## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> They certainly don't use autoroute, they use autosnelweg sporadically, but if they can do it the Mediterranean way they will. After all it's south of Holland and the weather is always nice.


And they're all good churchgoing Roman Catholics, too. :jk:

You're talking through your hat at this point.


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## garethni

italystf said:


> I have no clue that the Russian word for motorway is "avtostrada". It's obviously a calque from Italian.


It would not be a calque. A loan word perhaps, after transliteration. Calques require there to be some literal translation involved and the word here remains the same.


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## italystf

garethni said:


> It would not be a calque. A loan word perhaps, after transliteration. Calques require there to be some literal translation involved and the word here remains the same.


In Italian is a*u*tostrada.


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## PovilD

Term 'autostrada' is comonly used in Lithuania to describe motorway, altough official word is 'automagistralė'. Remain from Soviet times when almost all constructions were done by then.


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