# Chinatowns in European Cities



## Fede_Milan (Oct 19, 2006)

About 12,000 chinese live in Milano. Most of them are concentrated in the area around Via Paolo Sarpi.







*Following pics by GENIUS LOCI*


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

London's "Chinatown" is pretty crappy and feels touristy and "fake" in my opinion. 
This comes from a guy who lives in China and has visited Chinatowns in North America...

Those Paris ones look pretty cool, I have never visited any of them!


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## Karakuri (Dec 5, 2006)

13th arrondissement's Chinatown is one of my favorite place in Paris. It's animated, exotic... It's Europe biggest Chinatown.
Belleville is more hit by violence: that's where triads and thugs operate mainly.










Here is the underground where trucks deliver products for department stores and restaurants.


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## Manuel (Sep 11, 2002)

Chinese cuisine in Paris is mainly vietnamese even in restaurants that brand themselves "chinese".

I don't know which chinatown is bigger than the other, but Paris XIIIth arrondissement china town is so diluted that it doesnt really look like a proper china town as experienced in the US. On the other hand, London china town has progressively turned into a themepark with the rapidly expanding number of tourists since the late 80s.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

I agree Belleville is a bit dangerous.
Generally in Belleville chinese are poorer than in the 13th district.
Belleville has not only chinese people but a lot of northern africain imigrants too, It is one of most affordable part of inner Paris.

*Olympiade*(13th arrondissement) is near the new eastern business district of Paris, The french National Library, the ministery of Finance, two universities are under in construction, two big cinema multiplex, soutern suburbs in redevellopement etc...

_View of Olympiade from the newest bridge of Paris near the french national library._


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## ilcapo (Jan 5, 2007)

I wish we had a chinatown here in Sweden.
We do have many multicultural neighborhoods thought, and areas similar to chinatowns(such as Möllevången in Malmö).


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## krull (Oct 8, 2005)

Interesting reading these post about the European Chinatowns. Right now NYC has 3 Chinatowns. The biggest is in Queens, the second biggest (and the more touristy) is in Manhattan. The thid one is in Brooklyn (But is not very big yet but still growing). I wonder if the Bronx or Staten Island will ever have one.


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## Snowy (Nov 6, 2006)

I don't agree with everything that Monkey has said - I certainly have nothing against Paris, or it's Chinatowns for one thing! - but I agree with him when he is right in that London's Chinatown is now more of a commercial area, rather than a residential area (due to the high rents because of it's central location) and in this sense it is very different to Chinatowns in other cities.

This isn't to say that London doesn't have a large Chinese population - it does, but they are largely scattered around the city, like most of the other ethnic communities. London's ethnic communities are mixed - Turks, Chinese, afro-caribbeans, Indians, Poles and indeed white, British-born people living side-by-side, rather than in separate communities. I imagine that you get this in other cities, but maybe not to the same extent. I think that it is due to this reason that London does not have any other Chinatowns, with it's sizeable Chinese population dotted around the city, rather than being largely confined to two or three Chinatowns.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Like Paris
Paris's chinatowns host a little part of chinese population in Paris.
The majority of the chinese population are anywhere in the city (Inner city and suburbs)


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## Snowy (Nov 6, 2006)

minato ku said:


> Like Paris
> Paris's chinatowns host a little part of chinese population in Paris.
> The majority of the chinese population are anywhere in the city (Inner city and suburbs)


Of course, I wasn't suggesting that ALL of Paris' Chinese citizens lived in it's Chinatowns!


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## z0rg (Jan 17, 2003)

Madrid's Chinatown looks like Milan's. Not a Chinatown properly, but a wide neighborhood in the city center where there are tens of shops and groceries run by Chinese people, that's all. There are around 30-40,000 Chinese in Madrid including illegals, 1% of population.


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## aquablue (Mar 18, 2006)

i for one don't care much for them, all they are good for is buying stupid trinkets...also, the one in NYC is dirty. The one in SFO is very touristy, there is no reason to go there as the restaurants are ugly as hell....much prefer a so called fake London chinatown to a so called authentic one, at least it looks nice..


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## aquablue (Mar 18, 2006)

london chinatown has a nice well kept aesthetic, nice awnings, shopfronts etc...its an upscale chinatown; i don't really care if chinese are not living there or if its not "authentic" enough, as its much more enjoyable than walking down dirty and traffic infested canal street in NYC. Face it, authentic chinatowns aren't the most pleasant places to be anyway, and often the restaurants are ugly dives like in SFO, with no style...food may be good, but who wants to eat in a bright room with disgusting furnishings and poor surroundings? London's chinatown is manicured and pedestrianized, with enough chinese atmosphere without all the crap that goes with it usually.


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## Sen (Nov 13, 2004)

North American chinatowns are no way authentic.

From the pics Paris chinatown look most authenitc to me, they resemble today's mainland china the most.


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## polako (Apr 7, 2005)

Are the Chinatowns in Europe exploding, growing, stagnant or declining?


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## en (Sep 30, 2004)

Sen said:


> North American chinatowns are no way authentic.
> 
> From the pics Paris chinatown look most authenitc to me, they resemble today's mainland china the most.


North American Chinatowns were mostly settled from people in Southern China (mostly Cantonese speaking people) and resemble China the way it _used_ to be. Pictures of old Guangzhou look very similar to North American Chinatowns...

Also Chinatowns in South East Asia, i.e. Singapore, Malaysia also have a similar look to North American ones

The thing about North American Chinatowns is that not many chinese people live in them anymore, hence starting to become more like tourist traps

The ultimate tourist trap Chinatowns => Yokohama, Kobe, Nagasaki (also the cleanest Chinatowns I have seen before)


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## Sen (Nov 13, 2004)

I think the ultimate tourist trap title belongs to chinatown in Incheon, South Korea.

there are hardly any chinese there they just made one to attract tourists.


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## krull (Oct 8, 2005)

The Chinatown in Manhattan might be the touristy and the dirtier (Which I sort of like) but the cleanest, most populated, less touristy Chinatown is the one in Flushing, Queens.


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## LLoydGeorge (Jan 14, 2006)

aquablue said:


> i for one don't care much for them, all they are good for is buying stupid trinkets...also, the one in NYC is dirty. The one in SFO is very touristy, there is no reason to go there as the restaurants are ugly as hell....much prefer a so called fake London chinatown to a so called authentic one, at least it looks nice..


The one in Manhattan has a lot of charm. It is filled with beautiful old buildings from the 1700's through the early 1900's and is a vibrant community.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

polako said:


> Are the Chinatowns in Europe exploding, growing, stagnant or declining?


Paris 's 13th district chinatown is stagnant ( a little grow because the high price in the district))
Paris's Belleville chinatown is exploding.

As Monkey says London's chinatown is declining.


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## Mr Bricks (May 6, 2005)

The Paris chinatown looks very authentic, but judging by the pics posted so far it looks poor and unfriendly and seems to lack character. I would prefer to wander arround small streets with nice old architecture like the chinatowns of London, NYC, San Fran, Milano etc...


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

It "look" poor in fact it is not poor.
Belleville chinatown (small streets with nice old architecture) is poorer than Olympiade 

Paris is a weird city 
Ugly buildings can be expensive and beautiful buildings can be public housings.


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## Monkey (Oct 1, 2002)

Manuel said:


> Chinese cuisine in Paris is mainly vietnamese even in restaurants that brand themselves "chinese".


:yes: Although some of them are admittedly ethnic Chinese from Vietnam. Many of the Vietnamese restaurants and a good proportion of the Vietnamese community in Hoxton/Shorditch (an area of east London) are also ethnic Chinese from Vietnam (Hoa).


Manuel said:


> I don't know which chinatown is bigger than the other, but Paris XIIIth arrondissement china town is so diluted that it doesnt really look like a proper china town as experienced in the US.


:yes: Exactly. The claim that the 13th Arrondissement "Chinatown" is larger than London's is based on the fact that it sprawls over a large area. However most of the residents in that area are not Chinese and the number of Chinese businesses there is far less than London's. The density is so low that you could walk through that place and barely realise you were in a "Chinatown" at all! And Belleville's so-called "Chinatown" is mainly a black area. If I used their definition then the Korean district in New Malden or the Vietnamese district in Shoreditch/Hackney are also "larger" than the Soho Chinatown simply because they sprawl over a larger area. However they are extremely low density and the Koreans and Vietnamese are probably outnumbered by other races. The total volume of restaurants, shops, other businesses, and their turnover, is almost certainly lower than in Soho.


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## Monkey (Oct 1, 2002)

minato ku said:


> As Monkey says London's chinatown is declining.


:? I didn't say that at all!! And London's Chinatown is certainly not declining. It has probably doubled in size over the last decade!!


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## Monkey (Oct 1, 2002)

SnowyBoy1 said:


> I don't agree with everything that Monkey has said - I certainly have nothing against Paris, or it's Chinatowns for one thing! - but I agree with him when he is right in that London's Chinatown is now more of a commercial area, rather than a residential area (due to the high rents because of it's central location) and in this sense it is very different to Chinatowns in other cities.
> 
> This isn't to say that London doesn't have a large Chinese population - it does, but they are largely scattered around the city, like most of the other ethnic communities. London's ethnic communities are mixed - Turks, Chinese, afro-caribbeans, Indians, Poles and indeed white, British-born people living side-by-side, rather than in separate communities. I imagine that you get this in other cities, but maybe not to the same extent. I think that it is due to this reason that London does not have any other Chinatowns, with it's sizeable Chinese population dotted around the city, rather than being largely confined to two or three Chinatowns.


With regard to your last point I disagree. If Parisian forumers are going to claim that places like Belleville (mainly a black African area) or Olympiades (another mixed immigrant area) are "Chinatowns" then London should surely count areas like Colindale or Bayswater too. And given that so many of Paris's Chinese are actually from Vietnam then we should probably count Shoreditch/Hackney as a "Chinatown" too.


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## Monkey (Oct 1, 2002)

staff said:


> London's "Chinatown" is pretty crappy and feels touristy and "fake" in my opinion. This comes from a guy who lives in China and has visited Chinatowns in North America... Those Paris ones look pretty cool, I have never visited any of them!


Speaking as someone who has lived in both London and Paris, visited all the large Chinatowns in America, Japan, and SE Asia, and travelled all over China, I think what you saying is crap. How come you're so anti-London all of a sudden? London's Chinatown is not "fake". It is frequented by tourists because of its' location in the heart of the West End next to Leicester Square and Piccadilly Circus - but it's not tourists who are crowding the supermarkets and buying stuff like durian fruit, thousand-year eggs, bubble teas, and stinky tofu - it's local Chinese. And it's the same with the shops selling Chinese medicines, music, and films. Middle class British-Chinese families flock there at weekend lunch times for dim sum. Restaurants such as Cafe de Hong Kong are entirely frequented by Chinese students at all times/days. You won't see any tourists there whatsoever. The karaoke bars also serve an overwhelmingly Chinese or Asian clientele (they have far more Chinese than western songs....). And there are some cheap Fujianese places which don't even have menus in English - their entire clientele are recent immigrants from Fujian province.


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## Karakuri (Dec 5, 2006)

> How come you're so anti-London all of a sudden?


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You're amazing dude! It's the first time I "met" somebody like you! You're such of bad faith.
You spent your time on this thread dissing Paris' Chinatown, just to say "London's the best in the world", and you don't accept criticism...
The truth is you may never have set one foot in either Belleville or the 13th arrondissement. Why do spend so much energy claiming Paris has no Chinatown? Why is it so important to you?

Belleville used to be an African area, until the 80's, and people from Northern Africa have been saying they're invaded by Chinese.
The 13th arrondissement, since the time it was built in the 70's, has always been a Chinatown, not as exotic as San Francisco, but the large majority of people living there are from China and South East Asia.

Now, please mind talking about your city, with respect to oter cities!

Let's laugh one more time:


> Speaking as someone who has lived in both London and Paris, visited all the large Chinatowns in America, Japan, and SE Asia, and travelled all over China


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :dizzy: :hilarious :rofl: :hahaha: :goodnight


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

I remember I opened a thread a while ago on European forum http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=267685&highlight=chinatowns 

In Milan Chinatown is in _Paolo Sarpi_ district http://www.chinatownitalia.it/citta.php?citta=Milano


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

Fede_Milan said:


> About 12,000 chinese live in Milano. Most of them are concentrated in the area around Via Paolo Sarpi.


Ups... I didn't see your post

Some figures suggest that Chinese community has (legal/illegal) about 45000/50000 members in the city; anyway the datus of 12000 is old and referred to legals only


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

polako said:


> Are the Chinatowns in Europe exploding, growing, stagnant or declining?


I don't have figures for the whole Europe and I can't tell you

Surely in Italy chinese immigration had a boom in last decade and the trend is confirmed for the following years

About ChinaTowns: many cities in Italy didn't have chinese districts, and now they have

For what concerns my city, Milan, Paolo Sarpi is 'traditionally' the Chinese district, but till the end of '80s Chinese were a relatively little percentage of the population of the district: now in Paolo Sarpi's ChinaTown probably 80-90% of hinabitants are Chinese, and the remaining part are immigrants as well: they hardly are Italians
Then the 'boundries' of ChinaTown are now wider and in other part of the city there are other districts on the way to become ChinaTowns


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## Monkey (Oct 1, 2002)

Karakuri said:


> You're amazing dude! It's the first time I "met" somebody like you! You're such of bad faith.


I'm not of bad faith. I'm just correcting some rather dubious boasts on this thread. We had this discussion before a couple of years ago at Euroscrapers.


Karakuri said:


> You spent your time on this thread dissing Paris' Chinatown, just to say "London's the best in the world", and you don't accept criticism...


You obviously haven't read this thread if you think I'm saying that London's is the best in the world. I quite clearly said that it's not as good as New York's or San Francisco's at the beggining of this thread. The best Chinatown I have seen was actually in Yokohama (near Tokyo). SE Asian Chinatowns are pretty good too. However I do think that London's Chinatown is the biggest and best in Europe - and arguably the only real Chinatown in Europe. The districts in Paris are just too mixed with other groups and too low density. Indeed I would say the same of the other concentrations of Chinese in London. They're not "Chinatowns". And I would say the same of districts in London such as Bayswater, Colindale, Shoreditch/Hackney as I would of Belleville, Olympiades, and the district in the 13th. :yes:


Karakuri said:


> The truth is you may never have set one foot in either Belleville or the 13th arrondissement.


I used to live in Paris and visited the 13th Arrondissement "Chinatown" lots of times. Belleville is a predominantly African area - something that's obvious as soon as you arrive. Be honest - you know that what I'm saying is true. :yes:


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## rocky (Apr 20, 2005)

CITIES in paris suburbs like lognes torcy noisy and bussy have a quite big asian population.
lognes has probably almost 50%


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## bobdikl (Jul 20, 2004)

staff said:


> London's "Chinatown" is pretty crappy and feels touristy and "fake" in my opinion.
> This comes from a guy who lives in China and has visited Chinatowns in North America...
> 
> Those Paris ones look pretty cool, I have never visited any of them!


Maybe London Chinatown just in a different league?
I think London's Chinatown is so real(most chinese here love it), natural and quite well maintained by the local coucils/authority in contrast to chinatowns around the world. I don't know if it is benefit from in the middle of west end, so get better or equal funding.? There is a significant number of chinese professional (from Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysian and China) in London.
The underclass chinese of british citizens have equal rights to access the welfare system - housing benefit and employment opportunities, so they don't cramp in to live in Chinatown.
I used to live in california, and most american chinese don't live in US chinatowan. They see Chinatown similar to downtown. 
They all come from diverse backgrounds, From gang master, illegal, waiters, restauraneurs, to academician, scientists etc. Overall chinese puplation in the Anglo-saxon world (english-speaking countries)are professionals. I have a US statistics with me, average chinese earns more than their average native counterparts. 



aquablue said:


> london chinatown has a nice well kept aesthetic, nice awnings, shopfronts etc...its an upscale chinatown;


Most upscale restaurants are gather for middleclass chinese or chinese professionals where their food is everything to them (especially the cantonese). a small bowl of better quality shark fin soup could cost you hundred pounds in London near mayfair or chelseas as in Hong Kong.
Due to past connections, some Hong Kong millionaires sent their children to Engish boarding schools. when these parents visit their children in London, their off menu family reunion banquet meal can be between few hundreds to hundred thousands of pounds. I'm not joking, Yes hundred thousands pounds of real chinese food. Outside asia, can only be found in London. Off menu means these restaurants serve expensive chinese but don't pay tax.


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## Saigoneseguy (Mar 6, 2005)

The Paris Chinatown is huge, and it's like 45% Chinese, 35% Vietnamese, 10% Laos, Thai...

The Collindale China Mall is definately a centre for asian communities to gather. I've never seen so many Asians in one place in London before, even more than in Soho...and the dim sum court is far better than in Chinatown. In Chinatown, you have to know the right place...I ended up once in a shanty restaurant (Mr Wu) and couldn't digest the food there...nothing authentic.


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## LDN_EUROPE (Dec 1, 2002)

You may have 'China Towns' in Europe and America but here in China we're starting to have 'Western Towns' and 'African Towns' and 'Middle East Towns'.

There are parts of Guangzhou that are about 40% black. In Shanghai there are streets where they are majority white.

You may think that the Chinese are about to crowd out your cities but maybe... just maybe this will become a two way dialogue. I for one am White/English/British/European and living in China.


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## LDN_EUROPE (Dec 1, 2002)

On the subject of China Towns in Europe of been to the following ones in the UK:

LDN
Birmingham
Manchester
Leeds

I like them but they are majority Cantonese/Hong Kong - not much food from other parts of China. 

London China town IS authentic... it grew naturally and is majority Chinese owned/run. My Chinese friends enjoyed going there to shop and eat. 

If by 'not authenic' you mean being well kept and being in the centre of the city visited by the most tourists in the world then you are correct.

In terms of food then the dim-sum in London is just as good as that found in Hong Kong and mainland China (obviously more expensive than the Mainland though!!!).

The best thing about eating food in China is experiencing food from all the different regions (all available in the major cities).

I start dreaming of European food though! Pizza (including Pizza Hut) is all available here but is aimed at the upper/elite class and is VERY expensive, whilst Chinese food is dirt cheep.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

Karakuri said:


> 13th arrondissement's Chinatown is one of my favorite place in Paris. It's animated, exotic... It's Europe biggest Chinatown.
> Belleville is more hit by violence: that's where triads and thugs operate mainly.


Just curious besides Chinese, is there a strong Vietnamese community in both Belleville or the 13th arrondissement?


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

I think it is only in the 13th arrondissent.


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

In the 13th arrondissement's Chinatown, residents are mostly from former French Indochina (Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos). They arrived there in the mid-1970s, fleeing communist takeover. Lots of them were actually upper-class and members of the elite. A lot of them are ethnic Chinese (the elites in South-East Asia are often ethnic Chinese), with Hakka, Hokkien, and Cantonese background. A significant part are also ethnic Vietnamese, ethnic Khmer, or ethnic Lao, not to mention that many people are mixed. For example, I could never find a "pure" Khmer person in Paris, they all seem to have one Chinese ancestor at least. In the 13th arrondissement you're most likely to hear Hokkien, Hakka, Cantonese, and now Mandarin due to the inflow of mainland China's immigrants and tourists. You'll also hear Vietnamese and Khmer of course.

In Belleville I think the Chinese community is more mixed, so you're more likely to hear Mandarin, albeit broken Mandarin. No Vietnamese there.

People here have forgotten to mention central Paris's third Chinatown, the tiny Chinatown in the 3rd arrondissement around rue au Maire. This Chinatown is small but it is the most authentic to me. Chinese there are almost only from Wenzhou, in Zhejiang province. You'll hear almost only Wenzhou dialect in the streets and shops. People from other parts of China don't really like this Chinatown, because they feel alienated. The Wenzhou community doesn't really mingle with the other Chinese communities. What I've noticed in recent years is that this Chinatown is expanding into neighboring areas, even reaching the world-famous Marais, Paris's gay district, which is fast being absorbed by this Wenzhou chinatown. I was living in the Marais last year and I was shocked to see so many Chinese immigrants flocking into the 17th and 18th century aristocratic mansions of the Marais (in the former servant rooms that is, not the master's apartments!). At the high-school next to my place, in the heart of the Marais, I could see lots of Chinese kids. Next time you're in Paris, I recommend you go to Square du Temple, on the northern border of the Marais. On a sunny afternoon you'll notice that almost 80% of people there are Chinese people enjoying the sunshine.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

ok London has one of the worlds largest Chinese communities, and one of the smallest Chinatowns... geddit?

*Basically London doesnt have racial ghettoes like American and French cities.* This applies to all the ethnic communities. Instead they have many community foci, ie 180,000 Chinese live evenly spread throughout the capital while barely a thousand reside in Chinatown itself. They have a few community foci, the main one being the Gerrard St area. Londoners are shocked to find this applies to other 'ethnic' high streets, areas such as Whitechapel-Brick Lane for the Bengalis, Peckham and Brixton for the Caribbeans, Hackney for the Africans, Dalston for the Turks, Southall for the Sikhs, New Malden for the Koreans, Haringey for the Kurds, Golders Green for the Jews, Wembley for the Hindus etc etc. are actually majority English or white.

In other words a small Chinatown and a huge Chinese population is just an indicator of how mixed the capital is, contrary to the divisive, multicultural govt policies of late. House prices are another factor, the high prices of the inner city has ensured there is always a mixed population of buyers throughout the last 30 years. These buyers tend to be on the housing ladder, people who sell for a profit and move on - in effect the areas community is very liable to transition, and mixing.

the highest non white ethnic minority is 55 percent in inner London and 65 percent in outer London (chalvey area of Slough), and even then its made up of a multitude of different communities. This despite the city being one third foreign born and one third ethnic non-white.


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

polako said:


> Are the Chinatowns in Europe exploding, growing, stagnant or declining?


I think most Chinatowns in Europe don't grow much, except perhaps Belleville and 3rd arrondissement in Paris, even though the Chinese communities actually grow a lot in almost all European countries. That's because Chinese immigrants are scattered throughout cities, they don't settle in the same area as would have been the case 100 years ago. But although not as visible as in American cities 100 years ago, Chinese immigration to European city is still quite high. In Paris for example, Chinese immigration at the moment is simply staggering. It is estimated that Chinese immigrants are currently the largest group of incoming immigrants, ahead of Black Africans. You don't even need statistics to find that out. Just returning to Paris after a few years, as I did last year, you'll notice how the Asian population has swelled in recent years. You can hear Mandarin and Chinese dialects absolutely everywhere, and not just in the Chinatowns. Not to mention mainland China's tourists that have now replaced the Japanese as Asia's number one visitors to Paris.

There are no official statistics (the French government does not count ethnicities), but according to NGOs there are between 250,000 and 400,000 ethnic Chinese people living in Greater Paris, which is by far the largest Chinese community in all of Europe. Most of them do not live in the Chinatowns. It is estimated that the Chinese community could reach 1 million people within the next 10 years, which is a big number even for a metropolitan area of 12 million people like Paris.

For an idea of what 1 million people mean in a place like Greater Paris, note that there are currently (my own estimates, based on official figures for places of birth) approximately 900,000 Black people in Greater Paris (Africans and Caribbeans), and approximately 800,000 ethnic Arabs (1.2 million if including the Berbers and Kabyles with the Arabs).


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

Here are a few scenes of Asian life across Paris taken by forumer Kilgore Trout last summer:























































Buddhist nun. Where is their temple I wonder...


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

thats cool Brisavoine. 400,000 Chinese would make it the biggest 'Chinatown' - not in Europe, but the entire West, 1 million within the next ten years even more so of course. Those numbers are staggering.

London has 180,000 but they are the most widespread of the communities (already in the most mixed city in the West) and only have much smaller, though numerous community foci.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

REpost:

ok London has one of the worlds largest Chinese communities, and one of the smallest Chinatowns... 

*Basically London doesnt have racial ghettoes like American and French cities.* This applies to all the ethnic communities. Instead they have many community foci, ie 180,000 Chinese live evenly spread throughout the capital while barely a thousand reside in Chinatown itself. They have a few community foci, the main one being the Gerrard St area. Londoners are shocked to find this applies to other 'ethnic' high streets, areas such as Whitechapel-Brick Lane for the Bengalis, Peckham and Brixton for the Caribbeans, Hackney for the Africans, Dalston for the Turks, Southall for the Sikhs, New Malden for the Koreans, Haringey for the Kurds, Golders Green for the Jews, Wembley for the Hindus etc etc. are actually majority English or white.

In other words a small Chinatown and a huge Chinese population is just an indicator of how mixed the capital is, contrary to the divisive, multicultural govt policies of late. House prices are another factor, the high prices of the inner city has ensured there is always a mixed population of buyers throughout the last 30 years. These buyers tend to be on the housing ladder, people who sell for a profit and move on - in effect the areas community is very liable to transition, and mixing.

the highest non white ethnic minority is 55 percent in inner London and 65 percent in outer London (chalvey area of Slough), and even then its made up of a multitude of different communities. This despite the city being one third foreign born and one third ethnic non-white.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

the spliff fairy said:


> thats cool Brisavoine. 400,000 Chinese would make it the biggest Chinatown - not in Europe, but the entire West, 1 million even more so of course.
> London has 180,000 but they are the most widespread of the communities (already in the most mixed city in the West) and only have much smaller, though numerous community foci.


Read more the message of Brisavoine


brisavoine said:


> There are no official statistics (the French government does not count ethnicities), but according to NGOs there are between 250,000 and 400,000 ethnic Chinese people living in Greater Paris, which is by far the largest Chinese community in all of Europe. *Most of them do not live in the Chinatowns.* It is estimated that the Chinese community could reach 1 million people within the next 10 years, which is a big number even for a metropolitan area of 12 million people like Paris.


French cities doesn't have racial ghettoes.
But we have income ghettoes, and it is not better hno:


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## Monkey (Oct 1, 2002)

Doesn't INSEE estimate the Chinese population for the whole of France at 135,000? 

I am reminded of when l'Express magazine finally refuted the 10% (ie 6 million) Muslim population figure for France. The media just took for granted that figure without referring to any credible research. L'Express magazine then cited serious research showing only 3.7 million (consistent with immigration statistics and fertility rates from INSEE). The 6 million/10% figure was total bull****. I think the same is going on here. We had absurdly inflated figures with no basis in fact or statistics propogated by internet bloggers with an agenda....


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## Sampei (Dec 6, 2005)

*Catania, Italy*


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Monkey said:


> Doesn't INSEE estimate the Chinese population for the whole of France at 135,000?


This number count only the native chinese peoples, It don't count native Vietnamese people with chinese origin and native french people with Chinese origin.

_Official statistics with ethinic and religious data are forbidden in France_


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Monkey said:


> I am reminded of when l'Express magazine finally refuted the 10% (ie 6 million) Muslim population figure for France. The media just took for granted that figure without referring to any credible research. L'Express magazine then cited serious research showing only 3.7 million (consistent with immigration statistics and fertility rates from INSEE). The 6 million/10% figure was total bull****. I think the same is going on here. We had absurdly inflated figures with no basis in fact or statistics propogated by internet bloggers with an agenda....


The same magazine has a different opinion about ethinic chinese people in Paris.
L'express La vague chinoise


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## Ning (Jul 18, 2004)

Monkey said:


> Doesn't INSEE estimate the Chinese population for the whole of France at 135,000?


French citizen of Chinese origin are not counted in the INSEE figures.


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## Karakuri (Dec 5, 2006)

Monkey said:


> Doesn't INSEE estimate the Chinese population for the whole of France at 135,000?


INSEE counts only immigrants, not people born in France with foreign origins.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

SaiGoNeseKiD said:


> In Chinatown, you have to know the right place...I ended up once in a shanty restaurant (Mr Wu) and couldn't digest the food there...nothing authentic.


:laugh: Mr Wu's is terrible, I know it's cheap but when I went I had some undercooked onions in cheap and nasty black bean sauce that gave me indigestion, one of my friends had to eat standing up because there were no seats.Mr Wu then kicked us out after 20 mins so he could fit more people in!!


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## JGG (May 3, 2006)

Interesting title of this thread... The question is whether it is good to have growing Chinatowns, Muslimtowns, Africantowns etc. So for once let me argue London has the smallest.  

As per the 2001 census, in the UK there is a Chinese population of 247,403, of which just over 80,000 live in London, which means the Chinese represent just over 1% of London's population (census 2001). Of course these are the official statistics and do not include illegal immigrants. There are also just under 20,000 Koreans living in London, I have no idea for the Vietnamese. 

Of all ethnic groups in the UK, Chinese people have the highest income levels and largest proportion working in professional and managerial jobs. Let's not forget many of the Chinese in London are in fact from Hong Kong, of which many tend to be from the upper end of the social ladder. 

Because a large part of the Chinese live in central London, with the old Chinatown next to Leicester Square in Westminster, their presence is more prominent than the statistical reality. Neverheless, in general, from observing people on the streets I think the UK and London Chinese population is relatively smaller than in the US, Canada and France. 

Some interesting internet links regarding "China in London" - which give a feel for the current importance of China and Chinese in London. The reason I post these links is that cross-city organisations in many respect are replacing the traditional society based on proximity - i.e. all Chinese living in the same quarter. 

http://www.thinklondon.com/cn/
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/chinese_ny/index.jsp
http://www.chinese-network.net/
http://www.chinesevote.org.uk/
http://www.ccc.org.uk/

Ken Livingstone is very friendly to China which does not always go down well with human rights activists. He wants to introduce Mandarin as a subject into many schools and runs a campaign to attract more Mandarin teachers to London. Probably partially a publicity stunt, but then again in the school of my kids they now have Mandarin classes as of the age of 6. Indeed, with the changing world order, very soon we will all have to become a bit Chinese!


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

the spliff fairy said:


> thats cool Brisavoine. 400,000 Chinese would make it the biggest 'Chinatown' - not in Europe, but the entire West, 1 million within the next ten years even more so of course. Those numbers are staggering.


Other people have already answered your post. It's not 400,000 Chinese in one Chinatown. It's between 250,000 and 400,000 ethnic Chinese people living across Greater Paris, and possibly one million within 10 years, if current trends continue. This is of course not more ethnic Chinese people than in the large American metro areas, but it's getting closer to North American levels year after year. According to the 2005 American Community Survey, here are the three largest concentrations of ethnic Chinese people in the US:
- New York metro area: 606,558 ethnic Chinese people
- San Francisco Bay Area: 531,629 
- Los Angeles metro area: 461,750

At the 2001 Canadian census there were 439,965 ethnic Chinese people in Toronto metro area and 359,015 in Vancouver metro area.

I'm surprised by these North American figures that I've retrieved from US and Canadian censuses. I would have expected them to be higher, particularly in New York and LA. Anyway, what it shows is that the number of ethnic Chinese in Greater Paris is now approaching the numbers found in the largest American metro areas.


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## leno666 (Sep 4, 2006)

i have something to ask.... like how many chinese there are throughout the planet that doesnt live/work in china?


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## Monkey (Oct 1, 2002)

minato ku said:


> The same magazine has a different opinion about ethinic chinese people in Paris.
> L'express La vague chinoise


It wasn't the opinion of l'Express magazine. In the case of the Muslims they were citing research by others.


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## Monkey (Oct 1, 2002)

Ning said:


> French citizen of Chinese origin are not counted in the INSEE figures.


So what? Counting the French-Chinese citizens is not going to suddenly multiply this figure up to the kind of levels being boasted of on this thread.


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## Monkey (Oct 1, 2002)

brisavoine said:


> I'm surprised by these North American figures that I've retrieved from US and Canadian censuses. I would have expected them to be higher, particularly in New York and LA. Anyway, what it shows is that the number of ethnic Chinese in Greater Paris is now approaching the numbers found in the largest American metro areas.


The American and Canadian figures are based on actual census data. The figures you are quoting for France are not based on anything but guestimates by internet bloggers with some kind of agenda. There is no ethnic count on the French census whatsoever. And it's obvious when you visit these places that there are nowhere near as many Chinese in Paris as in any of those North American cities you listed.


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## z0rg (Jan 17, 2003)

polako said:


> Are the Chinatowns in Europe exploding, growing, stagnant or declining?


In Spain they're growing, there's no doubt. The number of Chinese citizens living legally in Spain has grown from 62,000 in 2004 to 86,000 in 2005 and 98,000 in June 2006. Growing 2,000 a month. 30%~ of them live in Madrid.

I'll take some pics of Chinese New Year celebrations in Madrid and post them here. 

90%+ of Chinese living in Spain come from Zhejiang province. Furthermore, 80% of Chinese living in Spain come from Qingtian county, whose population is around 200,000. So, I suppose almost every Qingtian's family has relatives living here, hehe. I wonder if other Chinese communities in Europe have such a concrete origin.

There are 13,000 Chinese-owned businesses in Spain, including 4,000 restaurants, 3,200 "dollar shops", 1,500 fruit shops, 600 wholesale warehouses, 80 Chinese groceries, 200 textile factories, and 120 photo processing shops according to the Association of Chinese in Spain. 

For some reason, other Asian communities are almost inexistent in Spain, such as Koreans, Vietnamese and others, which are quite numerous in other European countries. This is a big mistery to me.

There are 135,000 Chinese living in Ireland according to Wikipedia, making 3% of Ireland's population. Dublin should host a huge Chinatown. Anybody knows about this?


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Monkey said:


> It wasn't the opinion of l'Express magazine. In the case of the Muslims they were citing research by others.


In this case too.


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## LDN_EUROPE (Dec 1, 2002)

I agree with Splif. Although China Towns are fun, a nice place for residents, tourists and a ethnic Chinese. Widespread ghettoisation is a symptom of a group not able to intergrate with wider society. When a group turns its back on the wider society problems happen. Their are some, for whatever reason, ethnic groups doing this all over the world (the UK is certainly no exception). This doesn't seem to happen much in London though.


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

minato ku said:


> In this case too.


Don't bother to answer him Minato Ku. Monkey is only here to create trouble and express his usual hatred of Paris. It's pathetic.


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## JGG (May 3, 2006)

An interesting article from the BBC about Chinese in the UK, which probably describes a situation containing quite a few similarities with the situation in other european countries:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4304845.stm


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## Good (Jun 20, 2006)

@Monkey: you are annoying. Belleville has turned into a real Chinatown in a very short period, after two years abroad, i did not recognize the place this year. Chinese had replaced Arabs and Blacks in a large part of the neighborhood. French newspaper Le Monde even made an investigation on the issue, but the link doesnt exist anymore I guess. Whether you like it or not, Olympiades is a huge Chinatown, even if it´s not as commercial, touristy and busy like London´s. Everything is happening undergroung, litterally, in the incredible shopping center hidden under the towers, and over the concrete slabs dotted with pagoda-like markets you have probably never visited. And I very much doubt you went to Torcy, Lognes and Noisy in the eastern suburbs of Paris: when I was studying Chinese in Paris, we used to go there with my professor to celebrate the end of the university year in excellent Chinese restaurants most of the time only frequented by Chinese. You have a big Chinese community living there. Add to this the big numbers of legal and illegal Chinese immigrants arriving each year in France, and you understand better the figures given by Brisavoine.


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## JGG (May 3, 2006)

Monkey said:


> So what? Counting the French-Chinese citizens is not going to suddenly multiply this figure up to the kind of levels being boasted of on this thread.


Well, to be honest I am also baffled by some of these statistics flying around... the claim that Paris would have similar amounts of Chinese than NY or SF just surprises me. So out of interest I did some research.

*Firstly for the UK:*

1. As per the 2001 census there were 247,403 ethnic Chinese living in the UK (some of these have British nationality - it is a ethnicity and not a migration or nationaility statistic)

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_compendia/fom2004/migration.pdf

2. Of these ethnic Chinese in the UK, 176.200 were born overseas (2001). This seems to make sense as over the last ten years the ethnic Chinese population grew by about 100,000 in the UK.

3. In general, 4.9 million of the total UK population were born overseas (8.3%) as per the 2001 census


*Secondly for France:*

1. INSEE does not publish any statistics on ethnicity.

2. As of 1999, 30,418 people born in China were living in France. Of these 30,418, actually 6,172 already had French nationality, so it may be that a part of this figuer includes white French who spent some years in China, got kids there, moved back to France. http://www.ined.fr/fichier/t_telechargement/6466/telechargement_fichier_fr_t.l.chargement.xls. Then I looked up the figures for 2004-2005, and it seems the Chinese immigrant population has doubled in this period, to something like 60,000. http://www.insee.fr/fr/ffc/ipweb/ip1098/graphiques.html#graphique1

3. As of 1999, 4.3 million of the total French population were born overseas. As a percentage this is only marginally lower than the UK.

*My conclusions*

1. Until 2001 Chinese immigration into the UK has been higher than into France. We'll have to wait until the next censuses to see whether this pattern continues.

2. It is hard to say anything about the "ethnic Chinese" in France (born in France with French nationality), but I have the impression that these high figures sometimes quoted are the result of Koreans, Cambodians, Vietnamese and Chinese all being grouped together from a perception perspective.

3. Yet given that around 2000 the UK has about 5 times more Chinese (born in China) than France, it really becoems a stretch to claim France would have more ethnic Chinese.

4. Recently, from 1999 onwards Chinese emigration into France has picked up considerably, probably close to UK pre-1999 levels. I do not know what the UK's post 1999 levels are, I leave that for someone else to research  .


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

JGG said:


> 3. As of 1999, 4.3 million of the total French population were born overseas. As a percentage this is only marginally lower than the UK.


That figure is plain wrong JGG, you're just caught lying. Actually, your whole post is nearly trollish.

According to the last official census, there was *5,868,242* foreign born people in France in 1999. If we include people born in overseas departments and territories, 6,227,126 were born outside of metropolitan France. In 1999, *10.64%* of the metropolitan France population was born overseas.

Those figures are all much higher than the UK's figures. And they are all official. Here is the source: http://www.recensement.insee.fr/FR/ST_ANA/F2/ALLALLMIG1MIG1AF2FR.html


Here's a map showing the countries hosting the largest communities born overseas :









Source: http://www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/worldmapper/textindex/text_index.html


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

What you British trolls fail to understand is that France is a country which has started to welcome migrants a long time before other European countries.

The French population stagnated during the whole first half of the 20th century. As a result, the French government sponsored massive immigration as a way to curb the natality issue. The thing is not that there are more people immigrating in France now, but simply that France started to welcome immigrants much earlier.

The Great Mosquee of Paris has been built as early as in *1922*. As a comparison, the Great Mosquee of London has only been built in 1978, more than 50 years later. There are hundreds of similar examples. The fact is simply that, for historical reasons, France is an immigration country since the 19th century whereas most of its neighbours have been firstly emigration countries and became only recently immigration countries.


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## z0rg (Jan 17, 2003)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese#Statistics
^^ Some figures are very outdated. Still interesting.


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## JGG (May 3, 2006)

Metropolitan said:


> That figure is plain wrong JGG, you're just caught lying. Actually, your whole post is nearly trollish.]


Thank you for the friendliness. Very disappointing when I try to remain business-like. I am just trying to figure out a statistical puzzle, nothing more. 



Metropolitan said:


> According to the last official census, there was *5,868,242* foreign born people in France in 1999. If we include people born in overseas departments and territories, 6,227,126 were born outside of metropolitan France. In 1999, *10.64%* of the metropolitan France population was born overseas.


Please explain me the inconsistency in that case. I take this from INSEE. 

"Insee Première n°1098 - août 2006

Enquêtes annuelles de recensement 2004 et 2005 Près de 5 millions d’immigrés à la mi-2004 
Catherine Borrel, cellule Statistiques et études sur l’immigration, Insee 

À la mi-2004, 4,9 millions d’immigrés résident en France métropolitaine ; *ils représentent 8,1 % de la population*. Les immigrés originaires d’Afrique et d’Asie sont plus nombreux sur le territoire qu’en 1999 ; c’est l’inverse pour ceux issus des anciens courants migratoires, d’Espagne et d’Italie. Dans la population immigrée, hommes et femmes sont désormais aussi nombreux : l’immigration à dominante féminine liée au regroupement familial a succédé après 1974 à l’immigration de main-d’œuvre à majorité masculine. Grâce aux nouveaux arrivants, la population immigrée n’a pas vieilli entre 1999 et 2004-2005, contrairement aux non-immigrés. Le niveau de formation s’est élevé nettement pour les immigrés, tout comme pour l’ensemble de la population. En particulier, par rapport à 1982, quatre fois plus d’immigrés détiennent un diplôme de l’enseignement supérieur. Quatre immigrés sur dix résident en Île-de-France, un sur dix en Rhône-Alpes et un sur dix en Provence - Alpes - Côte d’Azur."

Please explain to me the difference between what you are showing and this report, I would like to understand it.

*By the way, despite all your swearing and insults, you have not explained what exactly would be wrong with the Chinese statistics I have displayed, which is the subject of this trhead. I have shown that there are 176.200 ethnic Chinese, born in China, living in the UK as per 2001 and that there were 30,418 people born in China living in France per 1999. At least this seems to contradict these stories about Chinese pouring into France.*


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## Good (Jun 20, 2006)

@Metropolitan: no need to be agressive towards JGG. 
The high figures claimed in France may actually be explained by the fact that a lot of ethnic Chinese in France come from Vietnam, Cambodge and Laos. So JGG´s reasoning is not complete, he should include the figures of the population born in these countries to have a better idea of the Chinese community size in France.


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## Monkey (Oct 1, 2002)

Metropolitan said:


> What you British trolls fail to understand is that France is a country which has started to welcome migrants a long time before other European countries.
> 
> The French population stagnated during the whole first half of the 20th century. As a result, the French government sponsored massive immigration as a way to curb the natality issue. The thing is not that there are more people immigrating in France now, but simply that France started to welcome immigrants much earlier.
> 
> The Great Mosquee of Paris has been built as early as in *1922*. As a comparison, the Great Mosquee of London has only been built in 1978, more than 50 years later. There are hundreds of similar examples. The fact is simply that, for historical reasons, France is an immigration country since the 19th century whereas most of its neighbours have been firstly emigration countries and became only recently immigration countries.


Don't get upset with me just because we question your dubious figures. JGG is not British and neither of us are trolls. Immigration is not recent in Britain. There were Chinese and Indian communities in London back in the 19th century and a small black population even in the C18th. Of course if you include immigration of jews or from other European countries then it goes back further still and is on a large scale. However large scale non-white immigration to Britain didn't take place until after WWII (the arrival of the SS Empire Windrush from Jamaica in 1948 is often given as a symbolic starting date...) and has been constant ever since. Chinese immigrants started coming in from Hong Kong, Singapore, and Malaysia in the 1950s and many Chinese entrepreneurs opened restaurants. Chinese was the first non-European cuisine to gain widespread popularity in Britain (the '50s wheras Indian didn't take off until the '60s) and indeed there have always been slightly more Chinese restaurants than Indian. I don't think Britain became a substantially multiracial society until the 1960s when large numbers came in from Africa and Asia following Britain's phased withdrawal from her Empire. And the "Great Mosque of London"? Where's that? Are you referring to the Regent's Park Mosque? That was hardly the first mosque in Britain!! Note that unlike France most of Britain's non-white population, whether black or various kinds of Asian, is not Muslim.


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## JGG (May 3, 2006)

Good said:


> @Metropolitan: no need to be agressive towards JGG.
> The high figures claimed in France may actually be explained by the fact that a lot of ethnic Chinese in France come from Vietnam, Cambodge and Laos. So JGG´s reasoning is not complete, he should include the figures of the population born in these countries to have a better idea of the Chinese community size in France.


Thank you Good, that was actually one of my conclusions in my post. Clearly France has many more immigrants from Indochine than any other country, maybe with the exception of the US, but I limited by research to Chinese.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Metropolitan said:


> The Great Mosquee of Paris has been built as early as in *1922*. As a comparison, the Great Mosquee of London has only been built in 1978, more than 50 years later. There are hundreds of similar examples. The fact is simply that, for historical reasons, France is an immigration country since the 19th century whereas most of its neighbours have been firstly emigration countries and became only recently immigration countries.


And the Oldest mosquee in France was built in 1902 in Saint Denis in la Reunion
La *Reunion* is surely one of most multicultal departement of France

About 20% of the population of la Reunion have chinese or Vietnamese origin 
but I don't remember if Saint Denis has a chinatown .


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

JGG, someone already explained that a large part of the ethnic Chinese in Greater Paris ARE NOT from China. So you won't find the number of ethnic Chinese people in Greater Paris by looking only at people born in China. You also have to add up people born in Vietnam, in Cambodia, and in Laos. EDIT: oh, I see you've already found that out.

Here I have estimates from the Greater Paris Insee office: http://www.insee.fr/fr/insee_regions/idf/rfc/docs/numero137.pdf

According to them, as of mid-2004, there were 1,905,000 immigrants living in Greater Paris. Note that this figure does not include the tens of thousands of people from overseas France who live in Greater Paris (Black Caribbeans, Reunionese, etc.). Also, it does not include those people born in the former French colonies and who had French citizenship from birth, which was the case for most of the elites in the French colonies, as well as for the half a million Jews of North Africa and the 1.5 million pied-noirs. So as Metropolitan already pointed out to you, the immigrant figure is an under-estimate of the actual born-overseas figure.

Anyway, in the case of Chinese people it doesn't make much of a difference, because the vast majority of ethnic Chinese people born overseas did not have French citizenship at birth, and were not born in overseas departments and territories either, so most of them appear in the immigrant figures.

According to the Greater Paris INSEE office, 18% of the Greater Paris immigrants come from Asia, which means that in mid-2004 there were 0.18 * 1,905,000 = 342,900 immigrants from Asia living in Greater Paris. It's safe to assume that a good half of them are ethnic Chinese, the rest being Turks, Vietnamese, Sri Lankans, Khmer, Lao, etc. That would give 342,900 / 2 = 171,450 ethnic Chinese immigrants. Then you would have to add the children of these immigrants who were born in France. That's particularly true for the families from French Indochina who arrived in the 1970s and have had children and sometimes grandchildren born in France. I would say you can add 25% to the immigrant figure to take into account these children and grandchildren (I'm probably being conservative here, perhaps it's more than 25%, it's hard to tell). Anyway, that would give: 171,450 * 1.25 = 214,313. So we get APPROXIMATELY 215,000 ethnic Chinese as of mid-2004.

Now we are two and a half years after mid-2004, so the number of immigrants has increased in the meantime. During these two and a half years, if we use the 1999-2004 arrival rate, there should have arrived around 175,000 immigrants in Greater Paris. As I already said in another message, the Chinese are now the largest group of incoming immigrants to Paris, larger than even the Black Africans, and JGG had this confirmed by the doubling of the people born in China between 1999-2004 indicated by INSEE. Here I would assume that a good third of the incoming immigrants are Chinese (another third Black Africans, and the rest spread, few Arabs coming to France these days). That would mean 0.333 * 175,000 = 58,327. Add this up to 214,313 and you get 272,640, so let's say approximately 270,000 ethnic Chinese people living in Greater Paris as of the beginning of 2007, based on official INSEE estimates, which may be under-estimated because of illegal immigration which is hard to count (most of the new Chinese immigrants are illegal immigrants).

All of these are just educated guesses, they don't have any scientific value, but what they show is that the figure of 250,000 to 400,000 ethnic Chinese people living in Greater Paris which is published by various NGOs and French medias seems not too far off.

Now, contrary to what JGG says, this does not mean that Paris has as many Chinese people as New York or San Francisco. As I showed, there are around 600,000 ethnic Chinese people in the New York metro area, and around 530,000 in the San Francisco Bay Area. Numbers in Paris are still only about half those of NY or SF, but they are undeniably growing fast and it will be interesting to see where we're at in a decade or so.


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## JGG (May 3, 2006)

brisavoine said:


> JGG, someone already explained that a large part of the ethnic Chinese in Greater Paris ARE NOT from China. So you won't find the number of ethnic Chinese people in Greater Paris by looking only at people born in China. You also have to add up people born in Vietnam, in Cambodia, and in Laos. EDIT: oh, I see you've already found that out.
> 
> Here I have estimates from the Greater Paris Insee office: http://www.insee.fr/fr/insee_regions/idf/rfc/docs/numero137.pdf
> 
> ...


But when I look here: http://www.ined.fr/fichier/t_telechargement/6466/telechargement_fichier_fr_t.l.chargement.xls, it appears that as of 1999 only 5.5% of all Asian immigrants were Chinese in France. Of course we could go and argue that some immigrants from other countries are also diaspora Chinese, but that is not how immigration statistics are done anywhere. We would have to review all global immigration statistics if we had to take into account the ancestry of the immigrants. Also, there is no reason there is illegal immigration of Chinese in France, but there is no reason to assume it is materially higher than in the US or UK.

Now let's redo your calculation. If there are 342,900 Asians in IdF as of 2004, take 5.5% of that, and you end up with 18.900 Chinese immigrants (born in China) in IdF. Now, this calculation is not 100% exact because I apply a 1999 percentage on a 2004 number. If you assume the Asian population in Paris was stagnant between 1999 and 2004 but that the Chinese population doubled, you would need to take 11% as a percentage, which gives you 37,719 Chinese (born in China) for IdF. that is plausable because that would represent over 60% of all Chinese born immigrants in France.

Add then 25% or 50% for the children and some other diaspora Chinese and you end up with 47,148 to 56,578 ethnic Chinese in the IdF.

Do the same for France (60,000 Chinese immigrants in 2004) and you end up with 75,000 to 90,000 ethnic Chinese for France.

Of course these multiplicators that both of us apply are not schientific and on top of that none of these calcualtions insclude the Indochine immigration in France. But it shows that the estimation range is very wide.


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## JGG (May 3, 2006)

By the way, if I redo the calculation and I assume all Vietnamese, Loas and Cambodians are Chinese, then the "Chinese" immigrant population becomes a third of the total Asian immigrant population in France, but it is still not half.


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

JGG said:


> But when I look here: http://www.ined.fr/fichier/t_telechargement/6466/telechargement_fichier_fr_t.l.chargement.xls, it appears that as of 1999 only 5.5% of all Asian immigrants were Chinese in France.


Again you're confusing Chinese citizenship and Chinese ethnicity. I thought we had cleared that out. Sigh...


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## JGG (May 3, 2006)

brisavoine said:


> Again you're confusing Chinese citizenship and Chinese ethnicity. I thought we had cleared that out. Sigh...


But there are no statistics on ethnicity in France if I understood well? Why would you assume that all the Vietnamese, Loas and Cambodians emigrating to France are ethnic Chinese? Maybe a small percentage of them is, but this is all guesswork.


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

JGG said:


> By the way, if I redo the calculation and I assume all Vietnamese, Loas and Cambodians are Chinese, then the "Chinese" immigrant population becomes a third of the total Asian immigrant population in France, but it is still not half.


Your figures are for France as a whole, not for Greater Paris. There are large groups of Turkish immigrants in France (Alsace notably), but in Greater Paris they are not that numerous (in relative terms, compared to other Asian immigrants).


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## JGG (May 3, 2006)

brisavoine said:


> Your figures are for France as a whole, not for Greater Paris. There are large groups of Turkish immigrants in France (Alsace notably), but in Greater Paris they are not that numerous (in relative terms, compared to other Asian immigrants).


All true  , but then again you could take the Libanese who tend to be concentraded in Paris. Assume all Chinese immigrants lived in Paris, which as per 2004 was 60,000, and add another 50% for diaspora Chinese and ethnic Chines born in France, you end up with 90,000 for IdF.

Now to avoid all these discussions going forward, will the next French census include ethnicity? Given the overall high quality of French statistics, this gaping hole is somewhat surprising.


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