# Headlights at daytime-negative aspects ?



## Magnus Brage (Jun 9, 2006)

I have never ever been a promoter of using headlights at daytime.

Sweden was the first nation in the world to introduce this eccentricity. This was in 1977 and I still remember it as a strange thing to see all the cars using lights in broad daylight.

Although Finland already had this law in 1972 but only in the wintertime.

Norway followed in 1986 and Denmark in 1990. After the fall of the wall, many former communist regimes also started to use lights at day.

What are the negative aspects?

*Energy consuming
*Risk of dazing especially if the road is wet, because the dipped headlights are reflected by the water.
*Tiring for the eyes
*Turn signals are less seen if headlights are on.
*It would be easier to spot motorcycles if only they were priviliged to use daytime lights.
*Rear lights will also be in use although without necessity.

*So if DRL is supposed to be an advantage why did Austria cancel their rules about DRL?

I have seen that DRL are used in countries where it's not compulsory. This is 
mostly in Germany and Holland.

When I last visited NL I would estimate the use of DRL to about 20-30% of cars. In Germany this is less common maybe 10-15% of cars, higher use on the motorways. In Italy also as in NL within cities although not compulsary.

In Italy where it's compulsory on rural road, still use is definately not 100% as in Sweden. Italians tend to disobey trafficrules.

In France I saw few cars using DRL, also french motorists tend to switch on their headlights late in the evening. 

In Russia (as always) its a mess. Many newer luxury cars uses DRL all the time, probably to show that they're more important than others. "Get out of the way attitude" At the same time old zhiguli-cars use headlights only when it's pitch dark. In town parklights will do, quite common to see cars at night with no lights at all.

*Solution:* No compulsory DRL-law but All new cars should be equipped with small LED-lights as the type newer Audi-cars use. Those lights are less disturbing and less energy consuming, still they mark a car in motion which could be an advantage if the vehicle is not seen in daylight because of shadows from surounding trees for exemple. 

*Question: *People in countries with no DRL-rules. If you buy a new Audi do you disconnect the DRL-LED-lights or do these cars come to your country with LED's that dont automatically light up when you start the car?


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

I usually have my lights on at daytime, and so does the majority of the Dutch drivers, I assume around 60 - 70% of them. It's not to see but to be seen. I don't want somebody's passing action run sour if they crash into me. The most popular car color is gray. This is especially a color you cannot see as well as bright yellow or red. Also note there are many people on the road who do not have a good eyesight as most people, especially with the aging, yet mobile population. Lights are not only for the night, but also during adverse weather conditions. I've seen numerous people who still have no lights on during heavy rain or snowfall.


----------



## Magnus Brage (Jun 9, 2006)

ChrisZwolle said:


> I usually have my lights on at daytime, and so does the majority of the Dutch drivers, I assume around 60 - 70% of them. l.


I disagree, maybe 60-70% on motorways but on the countryside and in town 
(Limburg area) I saw that the majority of cars were not using headlights in the summerdays, I would say maximum use of DRL about every 4th or 5th car and I really counted.


I see a car even if no headlights are used, this is of course in broad 

daylight, at dusk/dawn & rain headlights should certanly be used -no doubt about that. 

I think that headlights are overkill at daytime but LEDs at daytime are usefull still not disturbing, the best ones are those of newer MB's with lower position than on the Audis.


One good thing about the new LEDs on MB's are that they are turned on without rear lights, which is splendid and even permitted in Sweden but...

despite that many swedish drivers still tend to switch on their headlights !!:bash:


*Question:* So do your headlights turn on automatically at start?

When did this phenonema reach the NL ?


----------



## TheCat (Apr 21, 2006)

In Canada DRLs are mandatory on all cars made since 1990. They turn on automatically when the car is started, but not the rear lights. I personally find them very useful most of the time, especially in the winter when contrast is low and, as Chris said, lots of cars here are also in various shades of gray.

Because of the DRLs that are always on, I only turn my headlights on during the day when there is poor visibility due to weather conditions.


----------



## Surel (May 5, 2010)

I turn on the lights quite automatically, wherever I drive, though it is said that in Germany with lights on, the police has simpler job of selecting the foreign cars, especially the czech ones by the border, as in CZ it is compulsory. And they like to check foreign cars in Germany ...


----------



## Ultramatic (Jul 6, 2009)

*All new cars sold in the U.S. have them built in. Studies have shown they reduce traffic accidents. *


----------



## Spikespiegel (Jul 13, 2009)

It's not more energy consuming using headlights during day. The energy used for the headlights would have otherwise just been "wasted", as the engine transformer produces an excess amount of energy.

As for your second argument, if you are dazed from light hitting a pool of water during daytime, you really shouldn't be driving. Neither should you if you can't spot a motorcycle in broad daylight.

I don't get why all countries don't use DLR.


----------



## eminencia (Apr 8, 2007)

Mandatory lighting during the daytime causes higher risk of hitting cyclists and bikers. (Many drivers claim not seeing the bike or bicycle on the road) As for bikers there is an easy and effective solution, however it is officialy illegal - using the full beam during the daylight. For cyclists there is no hope, just to take to take higher risk as fact.


----------



## Fouga (Jan 8, 2010)

I have been using dipped headlights in daytime hours for about 10 years. When I first started doing so many other drivers would flash their lights at me (thinking I had my lights on by mistake!).

Nowadays the majority of Irish drivers also use daytime lights. 

It's now even officially encouraged by the Road Safety Authority.... 

http://rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Campaigns/Current-road-safety-campaigns/Daytime-running-lights/


----------



## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I use day lights all the time, regardless of weather or so, for the same reasons as Chris: it makes me easier to be seen and I try to practice defensive driving because while I consider myself a good driver, I also want to be able to reduce risks of incidents due to other, more reckless or impaired drivers or pedestrians than me.


----------



## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

I drive a 2001 Toyota Corolla which is equiped with daytime running lights. Overall it's a nice feature since the headlights automatically adjust to daylight/weather conditions. I am not sure why other cars are not equiped for them.


----------



## HigerBigger (Aug 11, 2008)

Magnus Brage said:


> I have never ever been a promoter of using headlights at daytime.
> 
> Sweden was the first nation in the world to introduce this eccentricity. This was in 1977 and I still remember it as a strange thing to see all the cars using lights in broad daylight.
> 
> ...


In South Africa you do not have to use DRL but a campaign is currently ongoing to try to get people to use it. Recently on the busy freeway between Johannesburg to Durban signs were shown at all the toll gates to switch on the lights and it was found that accidents reduced by more than 70%. Even in South Africa with bright days all year round it make perfect sense to use it. A lot of people being killed on the roads are pedestrians and the lights reduce pedestrians being injured or killed by a very big margin.


----------



## koloite (Jun 16, 2009)

Magnus Brage said:


> *Solution:* No compulsory DRL-law but All new cars should be equipped with small LED-lights as the type newer Audi-cars use. Those lights are less disturbing and less energy consuming, still they mark a car in motion which could be an advantage if the vehicle is not seen in daylight because of shadows from surounding trees for exemple.
> 
> *Question: *People in countries with no DRL-rules. If you buy a new Audi do you disconnect the DRL-LED-lights or do these cars come to your country with LED's that dont automatically light up when you start the car?


Your solution is actually already being implemented in the European Union. All new cars sold from 1st of January 2011 must be equipped with DRL's. All (or at least almost all?) car manufacturers are doing this with 'Audi-style LED lights'.

The DRL's of modern cars are not disabled in countries with no DRL legislation.


----------



## Fender56 (Feb 22, 2009)

koloite said:


> Your solution is actually already being implemented in the European Union. All new cars sold from 1st of January 2011 must be equipped with DRL's. All (or at least almost all?) car manufacturers are doing this with 'Audi-style LED lights'.


Do you have a link to more info on this.?

I found this map on current rules in the EU, and according to that, DRL´s are prohibited in Greeze, until newyear.:


----------



## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

this map is very wrong. Hungary has mandatory headlights, they have been one of the first countries who introduced it in 90es. In Croatia it is mandatory during the winter period. 

personally, I am strong supporter of that idea. i find all those premises such as energy waste, dazing etc just the platitudes when we compare it to better visibility


----------



## bogdymol (Feb 4, 2010)

To all of you that are against DRL: I have seen many cars that didn't have their lights turned on on major national roads and accidents do happen because of this (when you try to overtake a slower vehicle it's much easier to see if a car comes from the other way if it has the lights on). Also, when you want to overtake a slower vehicle on the motorway first thing you do is to look in the left mirror to see if another car is comming from behind. If it has the lights on you spot it very easy, but if they aren't on you might not see it in time and cause an accident...

In Romania is necessary to turn the lights on only if you are driving on a major road (DN - national road). I always turn my lights on when I leave the streets of my town or during bad weather.


----------



## Norsko (Feb 22, 2007)

I am wondering where Estonia took of to...


----------



## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

Fender56 said:


>


:shocked: What the hell happened to Estonia on that map?

Anyway,I can't see anything bad with using headlights during day. Especially considering that I live in country which has 3-5h of 'daylight' for nearly half year (a soggy grey and dim weather fo most of autumn & winter) and ever changing weather - rain,snow,fog etc.

Only problem it can create,is in autumn when wet roads tend to reflect lights. But still,it's smth you can get used to. On good side - it considerably raises safety for both you & others by making you car more visible. And that simply rules out all bad aspects of headlights usage during daytime. :cheers:


----------



## BND (May 31, 2007)

x-type said:


> this map is very wrong. Hungary has mandatory headlights, they have been one of the first countries who introduced it in 90es. In Croatia it is mandatory during the winter period.
> 
> personally, I am strong supporter of that idea. i find all those premises such as energy waste, dazing etc just the platitudes when we compare it to better visibility


It's mandatory only outside settlements, so the map is correct about Hungary. 

But prohibited in Greece? :uh:


----------



## Marek.kvackaj (Jun 24, 2006)

if your Headlights at daytime are switched off -negative aspects is 60 euro fine by police

*Slovakia - mandatory all year long!* 
(law is already 2 years in force)


----------



## Magnus Brage (Jun 9, 2006)

eminencia said:


> Mandatory lighting during the daytime causes higher risk of hitting cyclists and bikers. (Many drivers claim not seeing the bike or bicycle on the road) As for bikers there is an easy and effective solution, however it is officialy illegal - using the full beam during the daylight. For cyclists there is no hope, just to take to take higher risk as fact.


Yes, and that's because many countries like Italy and Hungary only require 
DRL on rural roads, in the city especially in Italy there are a lot of scooters, bicycles on the city streets and they are less visible if motorists focus on headlights of cars and not on the objects around them.

Also in France less visibility for motorcycles is the main reason for not introducing DRL. 

So any austrians out there?: Why did Austria cancel DRL ? I even think I read in another thread that some Balkan country also canceled DRL in some way maybe Slovenia or Croatia ??



> In Canada DRLs are mandatory on all cars made since 1990. They turn on automatically when the car is started, but not the rear lights. I personally find them very useful most of the time, especially in the winter when contrast is low and, as Chris said, lots of cars here are also in various shades of gray..



So this is a matter of the year model of cars. Do people who drive let's say a '67 Camaro use headlights anyway? or do you see a distinct border between 1990 and 1989 and older cars ?

Any differences between Ontario and Quebec ? I suspect Quebec use DRL more than Ontario. (My experience from watching photos and YT-clips)


----------



## Christophorus (May 22, 2009)

So im a strict oponnent of driving with headlights during daytime. Its a simply fooling of people by selling them the feeling of a false safety feeling, i´d even compare this to the smoking bans brought to all of us by mother EU. hno:

IMHO somebody who argues that on a nice and sunny day a car has to turn lights on to be seen better should have his eyes checked by a doctor... 

Take a look at Austria where the mandatory use of headlights during daytime has been lifted because there wasn´t any rise of road safety. So did Croatia, but only during summer time.

In Germany you have to turn headlights on if there is a significant reduce of visibility due to rain, snow fog or similar, german courts have defined such a case by a visibility less than 150m, which is absolutely correct. Unfortunately drivers in Germany tend to beleive mother EU, and more and more people are driving with headlights even on good weather conditions, when its completely useless and even develops high risks for motorcycle drivers who have to turn lights on while driving.


----------



## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

BND said:


> It's mandatory only outside settlements, so the map is correct about Hungary.
> 
> But prohibited in Greece? :uh:


Oh, so rural roads are all out of the cities. I didn't understand it the best. 

 for Greece
:lol: for Estonia (or whatever that enclave represents)


----------



## Magnus Brage (Jun 9, 2006)

Christophorus said:


> Take a look at Austria where the mandatory use of headlights during daytime has been lifted because there wasn´t any rise of road safety. .




Yes, correct. DRL was adopted already 1977 in Sweden and researchers claimed they noticed a distinct difference in road safety in the years after introducing the DRL-law.

BUT, my friends that difference in less accidents after the DRL-introduction had nothing to do with headlights at day- 

-the decreasing numbers of accidents depended on rising awareness of traffic safety as increasing use of safetybelts a law which came in 1975 and the modernization of cars which became a lot safer in those years.

The whole DRL-phenomenon reminds me of the HC Andersen fairytale "The Emperor's New Clothes"

If authorities say it's safer with DRL after a while lot's of people tend to believe that without thinking about why.

Let's say soon authorities will only allow yellow cars, because some researcher came to the conclusion that it will save 3 lives a year..or that hazard-lights must blink all the time, maybe a car helmet would save another life.

How much of research do we have to endure before it becomes ridiculos ??

Most people in Sweden believe DRL is safer because they are taught so, but 
if it was abolished people would soon be used to see moving objects without lights, they would develop a sense for it which they now lack.

I would not argue about the use of safetybelts, but there is still no proof that headlights at day will increase road safety if weather conditions are good.


----------



## bogdymol (Feb 4, 2010)

I admit that during summer when the sun is up the lights are not necessary, but what about a cloudy autumn day? I know that the visibility is good (it's not bad wather, just a usual cloudy day), but the lights make driving more comfortable because you see all the vehicles easier.


----------



## koloite (Jun 16, 2009)

Fender56 said:


> Do you have a link to more info on this.?


An official press release can be found here: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/08/1394&format=HTML&aged=0&language
And my first statement wasn't 100% correct. It officially starts on 7 February 2011.


----------



## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

I'm a strong supporter of DRL because of a personal incident. I was 6 or 7, trying to cross the street on a grey day. And there was a grey car with no headlights on, driving way over the speed limit towards me. Being a little kid, I didn't pay enough attention so I stepped on the pavement. It was one of the scariest moments in my life. Luckily nobody was coming in the other direction so the driver managed to steer the car around me. I don't even want to know what would've otherwise happened.


----------



## Fargo Wolf (Oct 23, 2009)

To be honest, I don't care one way or the other. It's not mandatory to use daytime running lights in Canada, but all newer vehicles dating back to the early 90s have headlights (high beam) that come on "At a reduced level of output."


----------



## Fender56 (Feb 22, 2009)

koloite said:


> An official press release can be found here: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/08/1394&format=HTML&aged=0&language
> And my first statement wasn't 100% correct. It officially starts on 7 February 2011.


Thx


----------



## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

Magnus Brage said:


> .
> I would not argue about the use of safetybelts, but there is still no proof that headlights at day will increase road safety if weather conditions are good.


Hmm, who decides when the weather is good or not? Driver, of course. So, for that reason when the weather breaks(in some countries several times a day) some use headlights, some don't. Obviously making some cars less visible than the others. 

Some time ago I was checking how many cars on a British motorway use lights during heavy rainfalls. Experiment had been taken just ten-fifteen minutes after sunny part of the day. I counted more than 1000 cars. Every 2 of 10 passed with no lights at all, some had fog-lights together with headlights, some just fog-lights+parking lamps, some only parking lamps. Only 6 of 10 cars had properly switched on headlights. It was a drivers' decision. Not effective indeed and very different for certain groups of drivers. Is such a use of lights safe? Guess what was happening after raining? 

So, in my opinion there are 2 ways to solve the lighting problem, one better and more reasonable-lights on 24 hrs, the other-forbidding use of lights during day at all(obviously not possible) 



> but there is still no proof that(..)


I know _grey day_, but still day. Could it be a proof: 



Rebasepoiss said:


> I'm a strong supporter of DRL because of a personal incident. I was 6 or 7, trying to cross the street on a grey day. And there was a grey car with no headlights on, driving way over the speed limit towards me. Being a little kid, I didn't pay enough attention so I stepped on the pavement. It was one of the scariest moments in my life. Luckily nobody was coming in the other direction so the driver managed to steer the car around me. I don't even want to know what would've otherwise happened.


----------



## TheCat (Apr 21, 2006)

It probably also depends on the climate. In Canada we often experience low contrast weather conditions, both in the summer and in the winter. I know for a fact that it is much easier to see cars (especially white and gray cars) with DRLs, at least from personal experience.

One thing is important though - there is a different between countries where turning headlights on during the day is mandatory/recommended, and countries where specialized DRLs are used, which are not as bright as regular headlights. I could see how turning on headlights at all times can cause glare, which is why I only turn my headlights on manually when weather conditions are bad (e.g. heavy rain, fog, etc.). The DRLs with which all modern cars in Canada have to be equipped are not as bright (though, they are brighter than the ones in Scandinavia, and there was some debate about that a long time ago). Those LED ones are probably even better, but they aren't yet very common here. As Fargo Wolf said, they mostly utilize the high beams at a reduced intensity.

When I visited New York recently, I found visibility to be worse at times because of the lack of DRLs.



Magnus Brage said:


> So this is a matter of the year model of cars. Do people who drive let's say a '67 Camaro use headlights anyway? or do you see a distinct border between 1990 and 1989 and older cars ?
> 
> Any differences between Ontario and Quebec ? I suspect Quebec use DRL more than Ontario. (My experience from watching photos and YT-clips)


To be honest, I don't know, but my guess is that people with those cars do not manually turn the headlights on. However, there are very few cars on our roads (at least in the Toronto area) that were made before 1990, so in general it is quite safe to say that virtually all cars you see on our roads have DRLs.

I also have no clue about Quebec, but the law applies to Canada as a whole, so unless there are many more cars there that were made before 1990, I'd say it's about the same as in Ontario.

Another thing worth mentioning is that any car imported from the US into Canada, by law, has to have DRLs installed if they aren't already installed, before the car can be registered. More and more cars in the US also come with DRLs (partially because it saves the manufacturers money by not forcing them to have separate US and Canadian versions of cars), but unlike in Canada they are not mandatory there.


----------



## Nuclear Winter (Oct 23, 2010)

If someone can't see something the size of a bloody car or truck in the middle of the day, then they are any one of:

1. blind
2. Dead
3. Shouldn't be driving
4. A complete retard




These ever-increasing protectionist laws are getting more and more stupid by the day. And I thought we had ridiculous laws here in Australia hno:


----------



## Capt.Vimes (Jul 15, 2009)

Nuclear Winter said:


> If someone can't see something the size of a bloody car or truck in the middle of the day, then they are any one of:
> 
> 1. blind
> 2. Dead
> ...


Which one would you see earlier - a car with or without lights?


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Nuclear Winter said:


> If someone can't see something the size of a bloody car or truck in the middle of the day, then they are any one of:
> 
> 1. blind
> 2. Dead
> ...


Yep, and I don't want such a person to crash into me, hence lights on.


----------



## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Magnus Brage said:


> In Italy where it's compulsory on rural road, still use is definately not 100% as in Sweden. Italians tend to disobey trafficrules.


I beg to differ. If there is a traffic rule widely accepted in Italy, it's the one about headlights. It's definitely uncommon to spot a car with lights off, even in towns where it's not compulsory.
(And please, stop with these stupid stereotypes).

I am a fan of always-on-headlights, and now that I'm living in Germany the fact that they're more rarely used than in Italy bothers me. I don't know the rules here, but I'd say almost 70% of cars use them, while in Italy it's more like 95%.

EDIT: But I agree with you about the new LED headlights, they're way better in power efficiency and they're easier to spot.


----------



## RKC (Jun 16, 2007)

this is the stupidest thing i've ever heard!!!!
lights should be mandatory at all times!

i can't even count the assholes driving around in their gray/white cars in the grayest weather, snow, rain etc. (that's like half the year)

camouflage is not for the roads!!!!

jeeez...


----------



## Magnus Brage (Jun 9, 2006)

Nuclear Winter said:


> If someone can't see something the size of a bloody car or truck in the middle of the day, then they are any one of:
> 
> 1. blind
> 2. Dead
> ...


You are my friend. 

Exactly what I'm thinking, ok a motorbike without lights could be difficult to discover even in the day, but the shear size of a car makes it impossible to ignore.

What about scooters, mopeds and motorbikes? Is there a country where you don't need headlights in the day riding a motorbike?

Btw in Australia it's compulsary to wear helmet for bicyclists, in Sweden it's only law for children under the age of 15.

Also, here you can legally drive while talking in a cellphone

Very strange that there is still some freedom in the Nanny-state of Sweden.


----------



## Nuclear Winter (Oct 23, 2010)

Capt.Vimes said:


> Which one would you see earlier - a car with or without lights?



Anyone with half decent eyesight can see a car in broad daylight from several hundred metres away..... more than enough time to react to a potential accident. Anyone who can't recognise a car from 200 metres is a braindead vegetable and most likely a decaying zombie.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Yep, and I don't want such a person to crash into me, hence lights on.


This whole thing is a silly argument, back before our nanny states started running our lives, people survived driving much crappier cars, with much crappier roads, and heaven forbid, without big brother telling them to drive with lights on in bright sunshine and lived!!!!! 

Luckily in Australia, this is not law yet, but going by the track record of our socialist nanny-state government, I wouldn't at al lbe surprised to see it. Infact there has already been mention of this in the newspapers.




Magnus Brage said:


> You are my friend.
> 
> Exactly what I'm thinking, ok a motorbike without lights could be difficult to discover even in the day, but the shear size of a car makes it impossible to ignore.
> 
> ...


thankyou! In regards to motorbikes, I think the headlights automatically turn on whenever the engine is running.


----------



## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Nuclear Winter said:


> Anyone with half decent eyesight can see a car in broad daylight from several hundred metres away..... more than enough time to react to a potential accident.


This is simply not true... otherwise there would not be any accidents.


----------



## Nuclear Winter (Oct 23, 2010)

g.spinoza said:


> This is simply not true... otherwise there would not be any accidents.


We're talking about normal, sober motorists, not drunken, speeding, drugged up idiots. 

It is true, a human has good enough eyesight to identify a vehicle, what it's doing, which direction it's travelling and gauge its tragectory etc and react accordingly within a safe timeframe. Most accidents areeither caused by the driver himself losing control of the vehicle for whatever reason, drunk/speeding/drugged idiots, an obstacle on the road or malfunction of the vehicle, not because someone drove head-on into someone else because they couldn't see him in the middle of a bright sunny day. :crazy:


----------

