# Why are Brazilian cities so dense??



## null (Dec 11, 2002)

More than 90% Brazilians live in cities


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## Menino de Sampa (Sep 21, 2003)

null said:


> More than 90% Brazilians live in cities


mmm... 80% is more realistic. Distrito Federal, Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo are probably the only brazilian states with more than 90% of urban population.


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## ChicagoSkyline (Feb 24, 2005)

So you are saying all of those commie blocks are rich way of life in Brazil? Wow, it is some high class city with filthy senitation!
BTW, if it has one of the highest car ownerships in the universe, I would say that it is the most polluted city in the universe, is it not true?
There are certainly motivation behind that mid rise dense of Brazilian cities and it has alot to do with its CBD!


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

ChicagoSkyline said:


> So you are saying all of those commie blocks are rich way of life in Brazil? Wow, it is some high class city with filthy senitation!
> BTW, if it has one of the highest car ownerships in the universe, I would say that it is the most polluted city in the universe, is it not true?
> There are certainly motivation behind that mid rise dense of Brazilian cities and it has alot to do with its CBD!


What an arrogant post. -_-

1) Do you even know enough about Brazil to be making such sweeping generalizations? I think not.

2) You live in CHICAGO. Are you telling me that you don't have people that live in buildings in Chicago? Or they all live in suburbs? :crazy:


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## ChicagoSkyline (Feb 24, 2005)

DonQui said:


> What an arrogant post. -_-
> 
> 1) Do you even know enough about Brazil to be making such sweeping generalizations? I think not.
> 
> 2) You live in CHICAGO. Are you telling me that you don't have people that live in buildings in Chicago? Or they all live in suburbs? :crazy:


1)Sure, so general and clear
2)I don't live in Chicago, I live in suburb and loving it! and I didn't tell you that people shouldn't live in Chicago buildings, you are the one who said so :bash: , yes, they should try living in suburbs....LMFAO! :scouserd:


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

ChicagoSkyline said:


> 1)Sure, so general and clear
> 2)I don't live in Chicago, I live in suburb and loving it! and I didn't tell you that people shouldn't live in Chicago buildings, you are the one who said so :bash: , yes, they should try living in suburbs....LMFAO! :scouserd:


I think that he's saying that are people living in Chicago high-rises just like every other city. 

BTW, I thought you're living in Florida right now.


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## ChicagoSkyline (Feb 24, 2005)

WANCH said:


> I think that he's saying that are people living in Chicago high-rises just like every other city.
> 
> BTW, I thought you're living in Florida right now.


Yea, Chicago has lots of highrises and supertalls, but its highrises sprawl isn't like the brazillian cities which most of them are radiate outward miles away with pack of midrises from its CBD! With that kind of living condition, the motivation to survive has alot to do with ways of living than the pleasure!  

Well, I was on vocation for weeks there and just got back in da burb again...had relax time tho!  :cheers:


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

ChicagoSkyline said:


> 1)Sure, so general and clear
> 2)I don't live in Chicago, I live in suburb and loving it! and I didn't tell you that people shouldn't live in Chicago buildings, you are the one who said so :bash: , yes, they should try living in suburbs....LMFAO! :scouserd:


So I guess you don't know anything about Brasil. So before acting so imperiously and arrogant, I suggest you get a clue and listen to what other people that are actually BRAZILIAN tell you.

And the rest of your post, as is usual for your "contributions," is nonsensical.


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

ChicagoSkyline said:


> Yea, Chicago has lots of highrises and supertalls, but its highrises sprawl isn't like the brazillian cities which most of them are radiate outward miles away with pack of midrises from its CBD! With that kind of living condition, the motivation to survive has alot to do with ways of living than the pleasure!
> 
> Well, I was on vocation for weeks there and just got back in da burb again...had relax time tho!  :cheers:


Who are you to be determining which is the appropriate living condition or the best? Brasilians for complex reasons have opted for a more dense one in their metropolises. Why is this inferior, because it is not what you have? Frankly I love living in a city, much more to do and offers much more diversity then some bedroom community can offer.


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## ChicagoSkyline (Feb 24, 2005)

DonQui said:


> So I guess you don't know anything about Brasil. So before acting so imperiously and arrogant, I suggest you get a clue and listen to what other people that are actually BRAZILIAN tell you.
> 
> And the rest of your post, as is usual for your "contributions," is nonsensical.


Thanks for your confirmation DonQui, you made my life here more pleasureable now!:cheer:
BTW, why are Brazilian cities so desne? Love to HEAR from you, if you got better opinions, since you are trying your ways to disagree with mine! :sleepy: 
:runaway: :cheers:


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

ChicagoSkyline said:


> Thanks for your confirmation DonQui, you made my life here more pleasureable now!:cheer:
> BTW, why are Brazilian cities so desne? Love to HEAR from you, if you got better opinions, since you are trying your ways to disagree with mine! :sleepy:
> :runaway: :cheers:


Because the middle class prefers living in buildings.


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## ChicagoSkyline (Feb 24, 2005)

DonQui said:


> Who are you to be determining which is the appropriate living condition or the best? Brasilians for complex reasons have opted for a more dense one in their metropolises. Why is this inferior, because it is not what you have? Frankly I love living in a city, much more to do and offers much more diversity then some bedroom community can offer.


LOL...did I say that their living condition is BETTER than mine????
INFERIOR, I am sorry bud, but I never made such comparison, you are hallucinating :scouserd: 
LMFAO, yes, city sure is VERY FUN to live in, but it all depends...really! BTW, in your case, I rather live with some bedroom community than your so called city, because you got no taste.... :runaway:


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## ChicagoSkyline (Feb 24, 2005)

DonQui said:


> Because the middle class prefers living in buildings.


That is it...all you can say about it...wow what a joke, I wish that you can contribute more about it because you seem to know everything about Brazilian cities right...mind I disagree?


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

ChicagoSkyline said:


> That is it...all you can say about it...wow what a joke, I wish that you can contribute more about it because you seem to know everything about Brazilian cities right...mind I disagree?


Well, what did you come up with? That they must be poor, hence why they live in those buildings. Not only is my reasoning consisten with what BRAZILIANS are saying, who obviously know more about Brazil than you would ever hope to know, it is more respectful.


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## ChicagoSkyline (Feb 24, 2005)

DonQui said:


> Well, what did you come up with? That they must be poor, hence why they live in those buildings. Not only is my reasoning consisten with what BRAZILIANS are saying, who obviously know more about Brazil than you would ever hope to know, it is more respectful.


Ok, I take it back, they are mid class fun loving midrisers!  
BTW, I wan't trying to act inferior, just that I was urban shock with their common density and their urban layout along their CBD...at least that was what I learned from geography class...lol! :cheers:


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## Diboto (Oct 20, 2004)

I agree that living in highrise buildings has nothing to do with income or social class (at least not in South America).

In fact, some really wealthy people do live in apartment buildings, with all the facilities they want, and one of the main reasons is that those buildings are not very far away from downtown and other office areas, as well as shopping areas... among other reasons.


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

Where Chicago is right is that Sampa has indeed a huge pollution and an even worse traffic problem - the Tiete river IS the dirtiest water in the universe, and the traffic jams rise up citywide to 150km DAILY  

But with poverty it has for sure nothing to do! You can't compare Brazilian apartment blocks with European commieblocks - they are worlds apart.


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## tahk (Sep 12, 2002)

Ummmm... I spose that the opinion that one has about this depends on where he's from. i live in spanish basque country and here low-high-rise issue hasn't much to do with income... You can find cheap blocks, but the most expensieve homes are blocks too (the ones located downtown, like the Isozaki Atea in Bilbao... or the Abandoibarra houses, not to talk about the huge flats in almost 50% of San Sebastian...). And you can find very stupendous mansions... but horrible small houses in the middle of nowhere too. So you have expensive and cheap in any high-medium-low rise building type.


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## huahuahua_321 (Feb 12, 2006)

I would like to say that Brazilian people prefer to live in appartments for the reason already said......... what includes me!!!

Also almost of the poor people live in Favelas (favela= lot of tiny houses with about 10m² each one with something like 4...5 people in each house... and the houses are built one on the other... without many streets the cars can pass....)


So mediun class and wealthy people live in appartmens with pools, gys...
(and each appartment normally has at less one domestic servant of the poor class -normally womans- for do the house work) and the appartments are big (from 70 to 1000m² or maybe more). 


Also you should remember that Brazil has the worst wealthy disproportion problem in the planet (the 10% richer people are about 36 richer than the 10% poorest people and also the disproportion beatween the 10% richer is bad... there are those that earn untill than 10,000dollars p/ month ,those that earn until 50,000dollars p/ month and those the earn more than 50,000dollars p/ month!!!)This is a historic problem.... that gives more crime....


And about Asia, most of the people don't live in cities (in china for example just about 20% of the people live in cities -what gives about 260million people... not THAT difference of Brazil's population of 144million people in cities)


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## ♣628.finst (Jul 29, 2005)

Kuesel said:


> But with poverty it has for sure nothing to do! You can't compare Brazilian apartment blocks with European commieblocks - they are worlds apart.


Indeed. I think the richest Brazilians live in nice mansions on the rolling hills surrounding every major Brazilian cities.


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## ♣628.finst (Jul 29, 2005)

ChicagoSkyline said:


> Yea, I know! Just look at HK and shaghai, they have some crazy eye sore commies, but inside of them are actually luxury!


It's crazy in those upper class highrise in Hong Kong--- you have like 2,000 sq. feet and stunning scenery of South China Sea... with gorgeous mountains around. 

Many Brazilian cities also have some elite suburbs, though usually not composed of highrise which is quite far-flung, usually in scenic places... those houses are very expensive, more so than Canadian suburbia I suppose.


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

I think some of you are not aware what a commie block is - it comes from the German Plattenbauten, socialistic buildings for the "unique class" in the 1930s to 1970. A big influence on them had the Charta of Athens and le Corbusier in the 1920s with the principle of the functional city - devide living and relaxation from work and minimize the commuting time. 

This system also influenced the french urbanism in the 1950s (Banlieu - another concept of modernization and cleansing slums, see also the improved concept of the cingapuras in Sampa).

So please don't just call everything with appartments and some 5-20 floors "commie blocks"  

Bruno BHZ is quite right with the concept. Apart that in the 50s and 60s not everything was so much better concerning crime - it was only not that visible and a topic of the cencored media. And exactly this media is the engine of all the Brazilian paranoia and security business (similar to the US). Also - speaking about middle class (not LOWER middle class): I was astonished what that means for Brazilians - in Europe we would concern them definitly as high class! :cheers:


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## George W. Bush (Mar 18, 2005)

Kuesel said:


> So please don't just call everything with appartments and some 5-20 floors "commie blocks"


Of course ... Anyway it's funny that anybody in this forum (which is all about highrises glorification) would automatically associate residential highrises with low-income groups and commieblocks.



Kuesel said:


> Bruno BHZ is quite right with the concept. Apart that in the 50s and 60s not everything was so much better concerning crime - it was only not that visible and a topic of the cencored media.


That's not true. It never was paradise but definitely better before the advent of large scale drug related crime in the eighties (in Brazil). Homicide rates literally exploded during this time.


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## AcesHigh (Feb 20, 2003)

will.exe said:


> Yes, it does seem to be a very South American thing, not just specific to Brazil. Could it have something to do with income? The fact that North Americans tend to be able to afford big suburban houses which encourages developers to keep building sprawling monotonous neighborhoods, but in Brazil there is a bigger number of low-income earners who can much more easily afford a small apartment? just a guess...im not saying brazil is poor, just that north america has more people who want and can afford to live in huge sprawling suburban houses.


an apartment costs more than a house.

A 150 sq meters apartment custs around $350k in my city. With the same money, you can build a 250 sq meter house in my city.


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## AcesHigh (Feb 20, 2003)

SHiRO said:


> I was in Fortaleza two years ago and it is not extremely dense at all...
> 
> It didn't feel very urban even, more like a cross between a medium sized European city and a coastal resort town. Many of the tall buildings are only partly inhabited and the city is very car dependent, meaning it is very sprawled.
> There are supposed to be 1.5 million people in the city and 3 million in the metro, but it only felt as urban as a European city/metro 1/3th of this size to me.
> ...



but certainly you cant judge all brazilian cities based on Fortaleza, which in fact is kinda of a resort town, while on the other hand many of the brazilian cities full of highrises have absolutely no tourism industry (maybe only business tourists, most from inside the country)


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## AcesHigh (Feb 20, 2003)

oliver999 said:


> i notice that. too dense, lack of gree land. living in that city will fell press. but from airview, that's very huge and beautiful, show the power of humanbeings.


actually, brazilian cities are many times more green than US cities. Just look at street levels. Even in downtown, most brazlian cities have streets aligned with trees.



ChicagoSkyline said:


> Is it because they are all poor and don't want to pay for transportation expenses?



I will assume you are joking, but even then I will give you a serious answer: HARDLY. Most hirise residents have enough money to afford transportation expenses. And the POORER people in Brazil are actually the ones who live in the suburbs and the city periphery. The poor people in Brasil are the ones who must commute a long time to get to their jobs.




ChicagoSkyline said:


> So you are saying all of those commie blocks are rich way of life in Brazil?


The rich in Brazil evenly distribute between apartments (condos) and houses. In my city, many of the richest people live in apartments (condos... actually, condo is short for condominium, which is a system, not a building unit. Condos are actually BOUGHT apartments)

Its more a middle-class/upper middle class way of life than RICH way of life.




> Wow, it is some high class city with filthy senitation!


What does the exterior of the building has to do with sanitation? Either way, thats just stupid. Most buildings in Brazil are quite nice from the outside. The fact they are not all glass on the outside makes perfect sense in a mostly TROPICAL country. Unlike americans, we dont want to contribute to the energetic collapse of the world by air conditioning everything just so we can have all glass façades!




> BTW, if it has one of the highest car ownerships in the universe


Who the hell said that? No really, quote me who said Brazil had one of the highest car ownerships in the universe. 




> I would say that it is the most polluted city in the universe, is it not true?


No, because brazilian gasoline uses 20-30% of ethanol which pollutes much less than gasoline. Also, many cars use ETHANOL only. To finish it, many brazilian cars are 1.0 cars (1000cc), which pollutes less than the big american cars, but make more sense in an URBAN ENVIRONMENT.




> There are certainly motivation behind that mid rise dense of Brazilian cities and it has alot to do with its CBD!


brazilian cities hardly have a cbd.


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## AcesHigh (Feb 20, 2003)

Xäntårx said:


> Indeed. I think the richest Brazilians live in nice mansions on the rolling hills surrounding every major Brazilian cities.


some of them.

But take for example Doda (the brazilian millionaire) and his wife, ATHINA ONASSIS (the richest woman in the world).

They live in São Paulo (part time at least) on a $16 million apartment (condo).


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## AcesHigh (Feb 20, 2003)

btw, many brazilians that can AFFORD a commute would never COMMUTE like americans do. Too much time commuting. Too much distance. My family has money to commute 45km but we would NEVER do that! Lose 20-30 minutes, traffic jams, irritation and stress caused by the transit.

Brazilians consider 10km as a long distance to work.


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## ChicagoSkyline (Feb 24, 2005)

AcesHigh said:


> actually, brazilian cities are many times more green than US cities. Just look at street levels. Even in downtown, most brazlian cities have streets aligned with trees.
> 
> 
> I will assume you are joking, but even then I will give you a serious answer: HARDLY. Most hirise residents have enough money to afford transportation expenses. And the POORER people in Brazil are actually the ones who live in the suburbs and the city periphery. The poor people in Brasil are the ones who must commute a long time to get to their jobs.
> ...


It is all cool man, AceHigh! It seems like that I just got another lesson from local yocal!
BTW, someone said that Brazil has the highest car ownership in the world, I didn't say it so I can't back it up, I was just using the claims from someone on this thread, so you need proofs, ask the guy whom lay the claim! :cheers: 
Wow, I didn't know that Brazilian auto tech are this advance that is using 20-30% ethnol! :runaway:


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## AcesHigh (Feb 20, 2003)

ChicagoSkyline said:


> It is all cool man, AceHigh! It seems like that I just got another lesson from local yocal!
> BTW, someone said that Brazil has the highest car ownership in the world, I didn't say it so I can't back it up, I was just using the claims from someone on this thread, so you need proofs, ask the guy whom lay the claim! :cheers:
> Wow, I didn't know that Brazilian auto tech are this advance that is using 20-30% ethnol! :runaway:


Brazil uses 20-30% of ethanol in its cars since the 50s. There is hardly any advanced tech involved. 

As for the car ownership, what I asked you was to *quote the guy* who said Brasil had one of the highest car ownerships in the world. Maybe I just missed such post, but I cant find it. 

The closest I could find were:


Kuesel said:


> Sao Paulo has one of the highest car densities *in the continent* - if not THE highest and the third highest density of helecopters for the upper class


So Kuesel meant highest car density in the continent (South America). As for helicopters, São Paulo has the 3rd largest fleet in the world, and the largest number of buildings with helipads in the world. (doubt it? Just check first episode of the last Amazing Race season)


also



LtBk said:


> Yet Brazil has lots of cars.


and



Menino de Sampa said:


> SP, for example, has more than five millions cars... And there are capitals with more cars than SP (in proportion, of course), like Porto Alegre (around 1 million cars - 1.500.000 inhabitants).


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## ChicagoSkyline (Feb 24, 2005)

AcesHigh said:


> Brazil uses 20-30% of ethanol in its cars since the 50s. There is hardly any advanced tech involved.
> 
> As for the car ownership, what I asked you was to *quote the guy* who said Brasil had one of the highest car ownerships in the world. Maybe I just missed such post, but I cant find it.
> 
> ...


Thanks AceHigh, for digging out the claims!
Well, the ethanol here in US consider advance because we haven't fully using it in out cars yet!


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## George W. Bush (Mar 18, 2005)

AcesHigh said:


> Brazil uses 20-30% of ethanol in its cars since the 50s. There is hardly any advanced tech involved.


Interesting ... I always thought it was introduced during the Geisel regime in response to the early seventies' oil shock (they termed the initiative "Proalcool" or something like that, if I remember it well). At least I can't recall having seen any gas stations offering gas+ethanol before that time ...


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## AcesHigh (Feb 20, 2003)

George W. Bush said:


> Interesting ... I always thought it was introduced during the Geisel regime in response to the early seventies' oil shock (they termed the initiative "Proalcool" or something like that, if I remember it well). At least I can't recall having seen any gas stations offering gas+ethanol before that time ...


we are not talking about ethanol AND gas being offered at gas stations. Pure ethanol was only offered after the 70s crisis. But gasoline mixed with ethanol is oooooooooold.


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## George W. Bush (Mar 18, 2005)

^ Ah ok ... I never realized Brazilian cars were running on ethanol only ... always thought it is some kind of gasohol mix ...


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

There are more and more hybrids - but you don't actually mix ethanol with gazonline 

In Switzerland there is a test as well starting now with ethanol cars I think. It's a great innovation, only that you it should be cheeper for you need more in quantity.


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## AcesHigh (Feb 20, 2003)

Kuesel said:


> There are more and more hybrids - but you don't actually mix ethanol with gazonline
> 
> In Switzerland there is a test as well starting now with ethanol cars I think. It's a great innovation, only that you it should be cheeper for you need more in quantity.



actually, you DO MIX ethanol with gasoline.

from WIKIPEDIA article on Ethanol Fuel.

"*Ethanol can be blended with gasoline in varying quantities* to reduce the consumption of petroleum fuels, as well as to reduce air pollution. The resulting fuel is known in the United States as gasohol, or *gasoline type C in Brazil*. Two common mixtures in the United States are E10 and E85 which contain 10% and 85% ethanol, respectively, while *the common mixtures in Brazil are gasoline type C and its high octane variants, which contain 20% to 25% ethanol (also the only kind of gasoline legally sold in fuel stations)*"

"All gasoline in Brazil must be at least 20%~25% alcohol."


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## Kaique (Aug 15, 2006)

*Achool or city density?*

Well, I'm not a professor but I have an explanation.
Brazilian cities have so hight desnity becouse the model of economics development. The "lands" space to build houses, buildings are to much expensive. 
I live in Fortaleza there are 2.5 millon people only in the city and almost a millon in the suburbs. I live in the main district, there aren't houses any more, all is ocuped with buildings of 22 floors (is the law's maximun). But this happend since 70's before that the city had less than a millon. 
The same happened with São Paulo and Rio, but 50 years before. Today we are "boxed" in smalls and really expensive apartaments, the richests, as in USA or Canada, now are moving to the far suburbus looking for space, green areas healthy air...the middian classes and poors are fulling the downtown. 
This happen almost cities in Brazil. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We had cars powered with only ethanol, but this doesn't worked well, couse in the 90's the Gas prices has downed again. know we devloped the flexfuel tecnology, cars moved by the both fuels, actually 3 Gasoline, Alcohol, Natural gas.
Just to compare 1L* Gas USD1.5 | 1L* Alcol. USD 0.9 | 1m³ natural gas USD 0.5

a gallon = 3.785 L 

p.s I'm sorry about my bad english


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## Kaique (Aug 15, 2006)

*Flexpower, Flexfuel or simply Flex (bicombustíveis)*

In that cars we can mix all fuels in any proportion, the car computer how to "burn" the fuel. Next year will luch the 4 fuels car: Diesel, Gas, Acohol, VNG.
Use natural gas is going to be very popular, but there are an inconvinient, the the cylinders with gas are in the loader, so we lost space for baggage.


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## Harkeb (Oct 12, 2004)

ROYU said:


> I think this have to be because of the culture of Brazilian to live in buildings.


 :hahaha: 
Where do you live in dude? a Sandpit? :hilarious


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## jamesinclair (Mar 21, 2006)

Just to add to the fuel used in Brasil:

Gasoline: Currently, all gasoline sold in the country is mixed with 21% ethanol. It was 25% but the increase in demand (and price) made the government lower the requriement temporarily. Every car (such as those in the US) can use this mix, although in the US automakers claim that 10% ethanol is the limit.

Ethanol sold in the US is 85% ethanol and 15% gas. In Brasil, its 95% ethanol and 5% WATER. Ethanol-only cars (from the 1980s) and newer flex-fule cars use this. Something like 80% of cars sold this year are flex

Diesel: All diesel sold in Brasil as of this 2008 requires 3% biodiesel mixed in. 5% by 2010. Public transport uses pure Biodiesel. Diesel is used more widely in Brasil than in the US, because there are more european cars (Renault, Citroen, Pegeut). As for as I know, theres no flex car that takes diesel or anything else, although that may have changed recently.

Natural gas: Flex cars that accept ethanol or gas or natural gas are now available, but CNG is still hard to find in the average gas station.


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## Kaique (Aug 15, 2006)

jamesinclair said:


> Just to add to the fuel used in Brasil:
> 
> Gasoline: Currently, all gasoline sold in the country is mixed with 21% ethanol. It was 25% but the increase in demand (and price) made the government lower the requriement temporarily. Every car (such as those in the US) can use this mix, although in the US automakers claim that 10% ethanol is the limit.
> 
> ...



In great cities isn't hard find a CNG station. Almost taxis use CNG, the bad side is the engine's durability that down couse gas is corrosive for commom cars components.
We don't use Diesel as fuel for "little cars" as in europe, couse the governament doesn't permit. Only trucks and pick-ups or jeeps are powered with Diesel. 
The almost cars sold is popular almost uses flexfuel engines.
Poppular in Brazil means little cars, without any confortble and, these days, very expensive around USD12.000.


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## supamann089 (Aug 22, 2006)

Mexico and Brazil are by far the two richest countries in latinamerica and two of the richest in the world, but the fact that mexico is so close to the states, makes mexicans want to live in houses like the americans instead of buildings, and since brazil isn't close to north america or europe, they've created their own style of living, and other south american countries just try to copy it.


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## ROYU (Jul 19, 2004)

harberk said:


> :hahaha:
> Where do you live in dude? a Sandpit? :hilarious


I live in a middle high class suburb in Mexico City where the nearest building of more than ten floors are some office buildings located like 2 kilometers away.


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

The reason is the following: Brazil had the fastest urban growth in the Western Hemisphere. In one century, more than 145 million people were born and moved into the cities... Urban sprawl needs plenty of money for an extense public transport system. While it is much more affordable if you have living and working as close as possible. But since the city centers decayed in most cases, the middle classes had an enormous need of high quality housing. So the apartment buildings were built next to the city centers, but even though growing out of the inicial building spaces, since growth still continues today. Lower class had to settle in the city centres, in so-called corticos and in the peripherical areas, in favelas. Those living in corticos are often domestics, nannies etc. Those in the favelas do daily paid jobs in the fabrics around the city. That's why the apartment buildings are often the frontier between the city centre and the suburbs.
This has historically grown like that. One exception is Curitiba: It has a dense city centre, but several skylines spreading along the "structural axes", which is big avenidas or express ways with tall apartment and commercial buildings, shopping centres and clinics etc.
In the case of Sao Paulo, you find areas planned for high density, especially those served very well by wide boulevards, underground train, and good infrastructure. Those not so well served by public transport and other infrastructure are mostly low density areas. Even though the UNO claimed last year the urban sprawl of Sao Paulo brings to risk the future water supply. The city is dense, but apartments are very big, they have large generous gardens and parks inside the condos, sealing everytime more the ground, more and more water gets lost. Only the water of the swimming pools in Sao Paulo could deliver water for all households of Ethiopia's capital Addis Abeba for half a year, since it is the city with the second highest number of pools after LA!


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

George W. Bush said:


> the poor can't afford the rents (much less buy the appartments), most of them live in the sprawling peripheral parts of the cities and may have to commute quite long distances by bus or metro train.


Not only: To rent an apartment in Brazil, you have to earn 3 times the amount of the rent. Then you have to have a guarantor earning also 3 times the amount of the rent, and he has to have a real estate already quit!
If you have no guarantor, you can either deposit 12 rents of you make a guarantor's insurance, paying between 14 and 24% of your rent for the insurance every month. 
I know it because my mother has 28 apartments and 5 houses in Brazil (in Sao Paulo, Barueri/Alphaville, Guarujá, Curitiba, Camboriú and Florianópolis). And she was guarantor several times! I do only have 3 apartments but I would never again bail for anyone - it once costed me 5,000 $ for rent that wasn't paid and things broken inside the apartment.
It is very difficult to find a bailer in Brazil, as many people have made bad experience! So, it is difficult to rent an apartment. As many insurers don't accept everyone. And if you have 12 rents to deposit, you can also execute a down payment to buy an apartment. Brazil is one of the countries with the highest percentage of real-estate owners. LOoking at my family, almost everyone has an own house or apartment...


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

That's quite accurate! In the case of Curitiba the reason lies in progressive city planning since the 1960s including a perfect pt system, museums, parks, general recreation areas. The problem of the city are the favelas which are quite far outside along the rivers leading to the center which are quite polluted... but I think there are already masterplans to fight this problem softly.

About the growth: til the 90s the big cities in the rich south of the country got flooded by poor people from the marginal and desrtificated north seeking for a better life. They mostly ended up un- or underemployed in some favelas. This tendency came to a halt in the recent years since northern cities such as Salvador, Recife, Fortaleza and now also Sao Luis start to have a booming economy and become targets for migrants of backlands, so they are not separated anymore from their families over thousands of km.


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## klamedia (Nov 21, 2005)

tadeu said:


> The buildings alredy has all this stuff and also pools, gyms, cinema, party´rooms, *lakes... * its better. Its our culture of Fear. We also have a lot of Malls, that is more security than walk at streets.


My, my, I must say.......these buildings are _well _ equipped now aren't they?


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## O Natalense (Jan 25, 2004)

*Belo Horizonte*








*Rio de Janeiro*








*Fortaleza*








*Sao Paulo*








*Camboriú*








*Recife*








*Salvador*








*Curitiba*








*Florianópolis*








*Cascavel*








*Criciúma*








*Campo Grande*








*Novo Hamburgo*








*Teresina*








*Londrina*








*São Vicente*








*Brasilia*








*Poços de Caldas*








*Campinas*








*São Luis*








*Chapecó*








*Natal*








*Blumenau*








*Belém*








*João Pessoa*

*Vitória*








*Piracicaba*








*Uberaba*








*Juiz de Fora*








*Maringá*








*Vila Velha*








*Cuiabá*








*Niterói*








*Joinville*








*Jundiaí*








*Guarujá*








*São José dos Campos*








*São Carlos*








*Aracaju*








*Porto Alegre*








*Caxias do Sul*








*Pelotas*








*Sorocaba*








*São José do Rio Preto*








*Maceió*








*Goiânia*








*Araçatuba*








*Uberlândia*








*Osasco*








*Ribeirão Preto*


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## O Natalense (Jan 25, 2004)

^^Some of them..


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## Kaique (Aug 15, 2006)

Kuesel said:


> That's quite accurate! In the case of Curitiba the reason lies in progressive city planning since the 1960s including a perfect pt system, museums, parks, general recreation areas. The problem of the city are the favelas which are quite far outside along the rivers leading to the center which are quite polluted... but I think there are already masterplans to fight this problem softly.
> 
> About the growth: til the 90s the big cities in the rich south of the country got flooded by poor people from the marginal and desrtificated north seeking for a better life. They mostly ended up un- or underemployed in some favelas. This tendency came to a halt in the recent years since northern cities such as Salvador, Recife, Fortaleza and now also Sao Luis start to have a booming economy and become targets for migrants of backlands, so they are not separated anymore from their families over thousands of km.


I agree totaly.
Many old politians try to hinder that people, mainly, from Northeast move to Southeast.
Fortaleza starts your boom population in 1970's. 1970 1 millon; 80 1,3; 90 1,8; 2000 2,1 2006*2,4 
metro region 3 millons
São Luís in 90's 1990 700,000; 1995 790,000; 2000 850;000 2006* 970;000
metro region 1.3 millon
* estimated


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## Kaique (Aug 15, 2006)

The old city of São Luís builded since 1550's








The photo show the old city(Downtown) founded by frenchs in 1612


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

Okay then for a change some baroque towns - to counter the highrise-sea image of Brazilian cities 

Ouro Preto

















Parati

















Mariana









Olinda









Salvador

















Santana do Parnaiba


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## Kaique (Aug 15, 2006)

Lets vote!
What is your favorit city in Brazil? 
Say some words about then.


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

^^ For me clear Sao Paulo
- one of the top culinary capitals in the world
- increadable urban development with some intereting single architectural gems
- very multicultural and international in ANY terms - except that everyone only talks Portuguese, from Japanese to Lebanese 
- Very diverse neighbourhoods
- Nice and open people (even if non-paulistanos don't think so)

Second would be Curitiba, could also be first... I am not so sure about it (has better public transportation, parks and is "cosier")  But Sao Paulo has more life.


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## oliver999 (Aug 4, 2006)

i love brizile cities. i counted the storeys of those dense buildings, mostly between 15-25 layers, very few more than 40 storeys,. so those cities looks so dense and great.
i think if there were 20 more than 50 storeys buildings, cant looks so great.


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## oliver999 (Aug 4, 2006)

this one is really incredible!


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## oliver999 (Aug 4, 2006)

AcesHigh said:


> an apartment costs more than a house.
> 
> A 150 sq meters apartment custs around $350k in my city. With the same money, you can build a 250 sq meter house in my city.


same in china! apartment more expensive!
an 150 square meter apartment sold 0.1million usd in middle scale cities.


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

Hey Natalense, this is an amazing collection!!!!


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## gutooo (Jan 30, 2005)

Thanks Kuesel and Cello for those really good explanations!

I think all brazilians cities are really underrated! Mostly beacuse most people don´t know anything, or almost anything about them!



I'll just give some examples of upper class residential buildings in São Paulo!
































































And now some routine pics from my cell phone:



















Thats Panamby skyline, a new neighbourhood next to Morumbi:




































Well, I have thousands of pics, for more info check my signature


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

Great Pics, thanks!
:applause:


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