# Diversity/Immigration Numbers



## Petronius (Mar 4, 2004)

*IMMIGRANT POPULATION INCREASED BY 7% IN PORTUGAL IN 2004*


http://www.publico.clix.pt/shownews.asp?id=1222392&idCanal=90


The number of foreign citizens increased by 7% in the year 2004 , going from 446,000 to 464,000, which roughly represent 5% of the population, and about 12% of "active" workers.

The main nationalities include Brazilians (about 100,000), Ukanians (about 70,000), Cape-Verdians (60,000) and Angolans (40,000).

Lisbon has 200,000 legal immigrants (10% of the population), Porto 31,000 (3% of the population)


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

Skylandman said:


> yep i know Spain alone it´s taken one of very three immigrants comeing to the EU, those numbers are already outdated, since the goverment is making an extra process to legalized immigrants and we´ll have a brand new report after it ,so in a copule of months about half more million immigrants will be added.


Thanks man. Those immigration numbers are amazing. Spain will become much more vibrant because of all those immigrants I think...


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## Petronius (Mar 4, 2004)

brooklynprospect said:


> Thanks man. Those immigration numbers are amazing. Spain will become much more vibrant because of all those immigrants I think...



those people were already living in Spain, they just legalised their situation.


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## Skylandman (Nov 7, 2002)

dude, shut the **** off and don´t speak about what you know shit, Do i speak about your country? then why the fucking hell you have to be talking crap about Spain wherever you have the chance? Shut the **** off and keep on talking all that wonderful shit you talk about your country, but forget about us, you are sick in the head and totally obsessed with Spain so give us a break and stay quite for a while.


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## Petronius (Mar 4, 2004)

Skylandman said:


> dude, shut the **** off and don´t speak about what you know shit, Do i speak about your country? then why the fucking hell you have to be talking crap about Spain wherever you have the chance? Shut the **** off and keep on talking all that wonderful shit you talk about your country, but forget about us, you are sick in the head and totally obsessed with Spain so give us a break and stay quite for a while.


you're insulting me! You certainly have a problem with me... That's what I read on the press.


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## DrJoe (Sep 12, 2002)

I could only find Toronto from 2001 top countries.

Other Countries - 48,050(I'd like to know what these other countries are) 
China - 21,487 
India - 17,596 
Pakistan - 11,590 
Philippines - 6,016 
Korea - 4,682 
Sri Lanka - 4,277 
United Arab Emirates - 3,341 
Iran - 2,974 
Saudi Arabia - 2,603 
Romania - 2,445 
Russia - 2,429 
Jamaica - 2,336 
United States - 1,896 

Total - 125,061

REGION 
Asia and Pacific - 74,466 
Africa and the Middle East - 21,037 
Europe and UK - 17,978 
South and Central America - 9,561 
United States - 1,896 
Not stated - 123 
Total - 125,061


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

DrJoe said:


> I could only find Toronto from 2001 top countries.
> 
> Other Countries - 48,050(I'd like to know what these other countries are)
> China - 21,487
> ...


If those numbers are correct, Toronto seems like it's getting a more diverse and per capita much larger immigration stream than even NY. I haven't been up there in a while. Definitely need to check it out.

btw - being of Indian descent, is there a big Indian/S Asian neighborhood in Toronto? Based on your numbers, there are 30,000 S Asians coming every year, which is a huge number for a city of that size...


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## km-sh (Mar 3, 2004)

Azn_chi_boi said:


> I dont know why but I am surprise about India.. a huge part of US Immigration


you were born in US ,right?


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## Booyashako (Sep 11, 2002)

@Brooklynprospect: If you ever get a chance to come up to Toronto then check out the Gerrard India Bazaar www.gerrardindianbazaar.com

Exerpt: _"Gerrard India Bazaar is the largest marketing place of South Asian goods and services in North America. With over 100 shops and restaurants which represent regional diversities of South Asian culture, food, music and products, this slice of the Indian subcontinent offers a wide selection of services and products exhibited in an exotic display of sights, sounds, tastes and aromas. The array of merchandise available here helps South Asians maintain ancient cultural and religious traditions, and keep in touch with the contemporary lifestyle of the Subcontinent."_


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"If those numbers are correct, Toronto seems like it's getting a more diverse and per capita much larger immigration stream than even NY."

Not just per capita, but also in actual numbers as well recently.

And remember, a Cdn CMA is a much smaller deliniation than an American "metro". Plus, Toronto city-proper gets a lot of them....especially in diverse amounts...the burbs get large quantities, but tend to be dominated by one or two countries.


Toronto immigration (CMA)

1995 95,252 
1996 97,235 
1997 96,540 
1998 73,560
1999 84,476 
2000 110,069 
2001 125,114 
2002 111,580 






KGB


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## Azn_chi_boi (Mar 11, 2005)

km-sh said:


> you were born in US ,right?


Yes..

"United States - 1,896"(in the toronto from top 2001)

most of those people probably live in largest city in the US near Toronto, after the 9/11 attacks...and wanted to get out of US


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## smussuw (Feb 1, 2004)

Can I know why students are included in the immigration numbers? Because I see the UAE has 40 something which are abviiously bachelor students.


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

KGB said:


> Not just per capita, but also in actual numbers as well recently.


Well in all fairness NY and Toronto get an approximately equal number of immigrants. NY got 115,000 in 2003 for example (not an unusually high year). 

And Looking at the numbers, our largest sender country was the Dominican Republic, with (what was it) 16,000 people. The next largest was India, with under 10,000. Toronto's largest groups were coming in at 21,000 and 17,000, with a similar number of overall immigrants. So in a sense, it would seem like NY's immigration is actually more balanced and more diverse. Only that on a per capita basis, NY gets MUCH fewer immigrants than Toronto.

Balancing that out though, is that I think our recent mass immigration started considerably sooner than Canada's - back in the 1970s. So we had more time to build up total immigrant numbers. For example, the NY metro has a lot more Asian residents than the Toronto metro, even though Toronto is getting more new ones coming in each year.


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## DrJoe (Sep 12, 2002)

^ well you should keep in my mind that there was also that 48,000 in Toronto that didnt even have a country listed.


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## rocky (Apr 20, 2005)

spains let immigrants flood them to compensate their horrible demography.


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

DrJoe said:


> ^ well you should keep in my mind that there was also that 48,000 in Toronto that didnt even have a country listed.


My point was that, on very quick inspection, the top 3 countries of origin in Toronto account for a significantly higher share of total immigration there than the top 3 countries of origin in NY do for total NY immigration.

In any case, Toronto gets considerably more per capita these days. If the city keeps up those numbers, in 20 years it will be far more diverse per capita than NY, LA or probably any city in the world


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## Rent (May 3, 2005)

australians arnt going anywhere  !! (good)


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## willo (Jan 3, 2005)

Pedrocid said:


> you're insulting me! You certainly have a problem with me... That's what I read on the press.



what you read is that spanish goverment is legalizing 500.000 illegal inmigrants, so they''ll turn into legal ones


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"And Looking at the numbers, our largest sender country was the Dominican Republic, with (what was it) 16,000 people. The next largest was India, with under 10,000. Toronto's largest groups were coming in at 21,000 and 17,000, with a similar number of overall immigrants. So in a sense, it would seem like NY's immigration is actually more balanced and more diverse. Only that on a per capita basis, NY gets MUCH fewer immigrants than Toronto."


I think you are splitting hairs...I don't see a major difference in the top countries...and you don't base it on 2 countries anyway. And the New York Metro is drawing it's numbers from a larger area. You will find Toronto's CMA numbers confine almost all immigrants to Toronto, Mississauga, Brampton, Vaghan, Markham, Richmond Hill....totaling about a 600 sq mile area.









"Balancing that out though, is that I think our recent mass immigration started considerably sooner than Canada's - back in the 1970s. So we had more time to build up total immigrant numbers."


Probably, but Toronto's immigrant influx has been going pretty steady since the 1950's. Back then it was almost all within the city ( 416 )...recently is when the suburbs ( 905 ) has seen the big influx (as well as the inner city).

Remember, Toronto inner city has been growing steady since the 50's, which is when most American inner cities saw their big declines begin. In the early 50's, Toronto was 1.1 million...it's now over 2.5 million...more than doubled in population...all attributed to immigrants.







"If the city keeps up those numbers, in 20 years it will be far more diverse per capita than NY, LA or probably any city in the world"


I think the point we are trying to get across...is that it already is. The only catagory NYC has the edge, is in sheer immigrant numbers...Toronto edges it out in every other catagory.






KGB


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

KGB said:


> I think you are splitting hairs...I don't see a major difference in the top countries... The only catagory NYC has the edge, is in sheer immigrant numbers...Toronto edges it out in every other catagory.


Actually I'm not so sure. I went back and found that the top three countries of origin account for 41% of all immigrants to Toronto (2001), and 31% of all immigrants to NY (2003).

The top 10 countries of origin acount for 62% of all immigrants to Toronto, and 46% of all immigrants to NY.

Also, looking at http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo53c.htm, I found that 37% of Toronto's population (1.7 million out of 4.6 million) were visible minorities in 2001.

According to the 2000 US census, the New York PMSA (9.3 million, and comprising the core of the total metro area) was more than 60% non-white, or as you say, visible minority.

Here are the actual numbers:

New York, NY PMSA - 2000 Census

Total Population : 9,314,235
Non-Hispanic Black : 2,118,957
Non-Hispanic Asian: 838,034
Hispanic: 2,339,836

Non-Hispanic White: 3,684,669

So NY is no slouch, and is currently ahead of Toronto in immigrant diversity and visible minority percentage.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"Actually I'm not so sure. I went back and found that the top three countries of origin account for 41% of all immigrants to Toronto (2001), and 31% of all immigrants to NY (2003). The top 10 countries of origin acount for 62% of all immigrants to Toronto, and 46% of all immigrants to NY."


I don't see how this makes a decernable difference at all...not just because it's for one year (and the popular countries shift change year to year).









"Also, looking at http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo53c.htm, I found that 37% of Toronto's population (1.7 million out of 4.6 million) were visible minorities in 2001."


Well, for one thing, I don't really care about the suburbs...it's the inner city where the big multicultural experience plays itself out in a tangeble way.

But most importantly, the colour of your skin is not even something that should matter. I can't tell you often I have to cringe every time an American wanks off black/white/hispanic/asian numbers. I don't evaluate who you are, and what makes you unique or diverse by the colour of your skin.








"So NY is no slouch"

I would never imply it was or over-rate NYC in this regard. 






"and is currently ahead of Toronto in immigrant diversity and visible minority percentage."


I don't think so....you can't judge by just one year anyway...and skin colour is pointless....Toronto has less "black" skinned people, but they are mostly immigrants and from culturally diverse backgrounds....A lot of NYC blacks will be your standard multi-generational "American" people, that have a lot more in common with "white" New Yorkers, as opposed to an african or caribean black in Toronto.

And Toronto has no cultural group that even remotely dominates....and all differences and cultures are celebrated much more openly. Toronto is just a more noticeable cornucopia of mixed culture on an on-the-street experience.







KGB


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

KGB said:


> I can't tell you often I have to cringe every time an American wanks off black/white/hispanic/asian numbers. A lot of NYC blacks will be your standard multi-generational "American" people, that have a lot more in common with "white" New Yorkers, as opposed to an african or caribean black in Toronto.


If you don't think African-Americans have a unique and impactful culture, well there's nothing I can do. Actually I can bring up that hip hop fashion, and music which is sweeping the globe, and most certainly doesn't come from white Americans. Not to mention other contributions like jazz, blues, R&B, etc. In fact, African-Americans contributed 100 times more to global culture than all of Canada's visible minorities combined. Actually they contributed far more than all of Canada, if you want to press the point.

Go to Harlem, the South Bronx, a big chunk of Brooklyn and tell me you don't feel a different culture from midtown manhattan or suburban Long Island.

Other than African Americans, the GREAT MAJORITY of our minority population are either immigrants or their children (including myself - an immigrant). 

So tell me again how we're not more diverse? This may change in 2025, but I'm talking about right now.


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

btw - NY has tons of Carib immigrants - I think more than Toronto, and only rivalled by London. People don't realize because just by looking at a person, it's often impossible to say if he's African American or West Indian.

Same goes for Carib Indian and Indian Indian. NY has a very large Guyanese Indian community, but most people don't know, because they assume those people are from India or Pakistan.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"If you don't think African-Americans have a unique and impactful culture, well there's nothing I can do."


Well, nobody is saying all american-born people are clones, or that there isn't a black-american culture. But the differences are very superficial usually...fashion and other trends start all over, and are something that trancends culture.






"Go to Harlem, the South Bronx, a big chunk of Brooklyn and tell me you don't feel a different culture from midtown manhattan or suburban Long Island."


I have...and I'd hardly call them bastions of multiculturalism. And lets not forget WHY black americans have eeked out a different approach to some things...racism is the only thing that predicated blacks evolving different fashion, etc. And that's the major difference between Toronto and American cities as far as multiculturalism goes...assimilation and segrigation because of racial tensions has been going on for a long time.

I just don't look at raw data...you have to look at the way things work on a more tangible, organic level.










"African-Americans contributed 100 times more to global culture than all of Canada's visible minorities combined. Actually they contributed far more than all of Canada, if you want to press the point."


Well, I don't recall being interested in pressing any points that let us degrade the topic to such lows...congrats. no wait...isn't it like A THOUSAND TIMES MORE??? he he

Yea...canada's such a nasty place when it comes to tolerance...a real big black mark on the world in this area.






KGB


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

KGB said:


> Well, nobody is saying all american-born people are clones, or that there isn't a black-american culture. But the differences are very superficial usually...


If you believe that the differences are "very superficial", you just don't understand American culture. Period. In my own experience, Asian immigrants who came here when they were very young adhere far more to white-American culture than a 10th generation African-American might.

And as for African-Americans contributing more to world culture than all of Canada, firstly, that's just true. And secondly, it was meant to show that they do in fact have a very unique and globally influential culture. Not something to be brushed off by saying "well black people in America don't count toward diversity".

Regarding racial tolerance, that's quite a different thing from diversity. Iceland might for all I know be more racially tolerant than LA county, but that doesn't make Iceland more diverse. Racial tolerance is perhaps something saved for another thread. As is immigrant opportunity - my parents know a bunch of people who immigrated to Toronto, and all of them want to move to America.


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

KGB said:


> I don't evaluate who you are, and what makes you unique or diverse by the colour of your skin.


Well in that case, why do you even care about immigration? A white Canadian might have more interests and personality traits in common with his Chinese neighbor than with his white Canadian neighbor. Ultimately, true diversity is a very individual thing. If you throw out race, why do you include national background?

And in the American context, race is closely linked with national background, just because the vast majority of Indian, Chinese, Haitian, Columbian, and even Mexican Americans are 1st or 2nd generation. Go back to 1960, and America was a black and white country, with a small regionalized Latino minority, and an even smaller Asian one.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"And as for African-Americans contributing more to world culture than all of Canada, firstly, that's just true. "


Yea...keep bringing out this kind on nonsense...you are either just an incredible ass...or your 12 years old. Did you here that stat repeated on Fox news or something? Or is that just your esteemed opinion?







"Not something to be brushed off by saying "well black people in America don't count toward diversity". "


Dude...try and pay attention for a moment....nobody is brushing anybody off...the point is that there is much racial tensions in the USA...always has been...perhaps being a fool and an American, this point is probably completely lost on you....when you treat people so badly...for such a long time, then yea...they tend to act a bit different to the ones doing the marginalizing. 

But the main point I was making, was that I see just as much, if not more diversity amongst "white" people as I do anyone else. But that's in Toronto, where thank god, we don't have many people like you, and the ones that we do have, aren't taken seriously. 

People aren't segregated to their little areas because of racism, so they can develope such deep and meaningful cultural habits like wearing your pants around your knees. Americans in general, and New Yorkers to a lesser degree, are heavily affected by racism, segrigation, and assimilation.

That's why Toronto is definetely more diverse in practice than New York City. I've experienced both, and the difference is quite noticeable.

Toronto and NYC both have the raw materials...but it's Toronto that uses them better.






KGB


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

KGB said:


> the point is that there is much racial tensions in the USA...always has been...
> 
> People aren't segregated to their little areas because of racism, so they can develope such deep and meaningful cultural habits like wearing your pants around your knees.


So African-Americans don't contribute to NY's diversity because of racism?

Speaking of racism, if you think African-Americans haven't developed "meaningful cultural habits" beyond "wearing your pants around your knees", I can see that you at least are a racist dolt who isn't worth talking to.

You calling someone else racist. Yeah right. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

Anyway I noticed some people on this forum seem very focused on urban multiculturalism and mixed neighborhoods.

But in my own experience, it's really interesting to visit for instance Flushing or Manhattan Chinatown, and literally feel like I'm in a medium-sized Chinese city. Or Brighton Beach, with it's hundreds of Russian business, beachside cafes serving Russian food and beer, Russian families lazing on the sand, and the sound of the Russian language everywhere. Even the waiters trying to lure people into the cafes try to do so in Russian.

On the other hand, most of Queens is very mixed. But because of that, for me at least, it's just not as fun. I don't get that "travelling to another country without leaving NY" kind of feeling. Sociologically I see the benefits to mixed neighborhoods. But purely as an individual, it's really interesting to visit Chinatown, Brighton Beach, or Spanish Harlem. Anyway by the 2nd or 3rd generation, things get more mixed.

And suburban immigration can be interesting in its own right. In LA, there's virtually an alternate reality suburban Korea, with low-density, vaguely medit architecture, palm trees, and Korean signs continuing for miles, hosting thousands of Korean shops, restaurants, cafes, bars, nightclubs, and even entire enclosed malls, complete with Korean-themed foodcourts. It's Korean, but its also something you'd never find in Korea. Same goes for Edison, NJ, which is now the biggest Indian neighborhood in America (most Indians coming to the NY metro head straight for NJ).

And if I want to see other non-Chinese, non-Russian, or non-Indian people, it's not too hard. I take the subway a few stops in NY, or drive for 15 minutes in LA, and I'm in a completely different world. Mixed neighborhoods, American neighborhoods, ethnic neighborhoods. Whatever I want.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"So African-Americans don't contribute to NY's diversity because of racism? "


I never said they don't...everyone contributes...it just doesn't matter what colour your skin is.







"I can see that you at least are a racist dolt who isn't worth talking to. "

So, not only can't you comprehend what I'm saying...now I'm the racist. ha ha ha 








"You calling someone else racist. Yeah right. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black"


I didn't call "someone" a racist...I pointed out the history of racism and how it relates to those affected. That doesn't make me a racist. 







"Sociologically I see the benefits to mixed neighborhoods. But purely as an individual, it's really interesting to visit Chinatown, Brighton Beach, or Spanish Harlem."


I agree...I like the idea of culturally dominate nabes, where you really get a feeling of being in a foreign country...but I make a distinction between cultural nabes that are that way because of racism or marginalization. I also like a nabe that mixes it all up, while everybody still retaining their cultural differences...and getting along doing it.

Both New York and Toronto offer this in a big way...in a fairly compact area that a person can experience in a daily, practical sense. But because of immigrant percentage differences, segregation, racial tension and assimilation differences, Toronto just seems to do that a little better than NYC.








"Anyway by the 2nd or 3rd generation, things get more mixed."

Retention of origional culture is very high in Toronto...the main reason being that 1st generation immigrants make up a very high percentage of the overall population...about 60% of the population is a 1st generation immigrant ( 15 years or older)....more than 20% is a 2nd gen immigrant. So, we are talking 80% of the population is a 1st or 2nd generation immigrant...and from a very wide selection of ethnic/cultural backgrounds. So, the pressure to assimilate is very low, as there really isn't anything to assimilate to....less than 20% of the population is 3rd generation Cdn born.

The other major reason, is that cultural differences in Toronto is not a fact of life people have to just live with somehow the best they can...it's something that is both officially and casually embraced in a positive way...you are actually encouraged to add your particular cultural uniqueness to make the city a better place to live.





KGB


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

KGB said:


> That doesn't make me a racist.


Wait, then you didn't say "so they [black Americans] can develope such deep and meaningful cultural habits like wearing your pants around your knees. "? Funny, that's a quote from one of your posts...

If you think that the African-American contribution to global culture consists of wearing pants around your knees and other trivial stuff like that, not only are you a racist, but also an uninformed idiot. How about jazz, blues, rocknroll, hip hop, techno, much of modern colloquial English and global street fashion?

The funny thing is how you condemn all of a country of 290 million people for racism, and then yourself make an idiot racist remark, in the same post. I'm assuming not all Canadians are like you.

I see we aren't going to get along until I wholeheartedly agree that Toronto is the bestest in everything, and that America is a racist hellhole with fashion-challenged black people.


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

KGB said:


> "So African-Americans don't contribute to NY's diversity because of racism? "
> 
> I never said they don't...everyone contributes...it just doesn't matter what colour your skin is.


Then why do you go on and on about immigration to Toronto? I'll say it again - You can have more interests and personality traits in common (ie less diversity is involved) with a Chinese, Russian or Columbian national than with a 5th generation Canadian. Don't give me "everyone contributes equally to diversity" and then say "Toronto is the most diverse city in the world because of all the nationalities represented". 

If everyone contributes equally to diversity, then Warsaw or Seoul are just as diverse as NY and Toronto. Which is an interesting argument, but one that obviously conflicts with your Toronto is the bestest in diversity claim.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"Wait, then you didn't say "so they [black Americans] can develope such deep and meaningful cultural habits like wearing your pants around your knees. "? Funny, that's a quote from one of your posts..."


Yes I did say that...but I was refering to making a distinction of fads and trends.








"not only are you a racist, but also an uninformed idiot."


Uh hmm. Yes, let's just sum it up that way...I'm an idiotic, uniformed racist then. And perhaps you are a malcontented, american 12 year old twit...cause this is the kind of immature conversation I used to hear in 5th grade recess.






"The funny thing is how you condemn all of a country of 290 million people for racism, and then yourself make an idiot racist remark, in the same post. I'm assuming not all Canadians are like you."


Ooooo....you're on a roll...is there more?







"I see we aren't going to get along until I wholeheartedly agree that Toronto is the bestest in everything, and that America is a racist hellhole with fashion-challenged black people."


.....I guess there is. LOL

No, you and I aren't going to get along...and not for those reasons.










"If everyone contributes equally to diversity, then Warsaw or Seoul are just as diverse as NY and Toronto. "


I see we will have to wean you off your warped sense of logic carefully. Everyone contributes...but if everyone contributes the same thing, then there is still culture...it just isn't diverse. Ding Ding






KGB

KGB


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## brooklynprospect (Apr 27, 2005)

"Well, nobody is saying all american-born people are clones, or that there isn't a *black-american culture. But the differences are very superficial usually...fashion and other trends start all over, and are something that trancends culture."*

"*People aren't segregated to their little areas because of racism [in Canada], so they can develope such deep and meaningful cultural habits like wearing your pants around your knees [African-Americans] *."

Who are you trying to fool? Very cheap shots. African-American contributions are "fashion" and "trends", not culture. A sarcastic "so they can develop deep and meaningful cultural habits" followed by a real gem of an example - "like wearing your pants around your knees". 

Jazz is superficial? It's a trend? Hip Hop has been around for 25 years. It's a fad? Change = fad? How about architecture? It's changed tremendously and continuously over the past 100 years. Does that take it out of the realm of culture and make it a fad?

Here are another set of gems. First question and answer:

"So African-Americans don't contribute to NY's diversity because of racism?

I never said they don't ...everyone contributes [to diversity]"

but later:

"Everyone contributes...but if everyone contributes the same thing, then there is still culture...it just isn't diverse"

So everyone contributes to diversity... wait... no... everyone contributes to divesity unless they don't, in which case they contribute to culture. 



Why don't you call me 12 years old a few more times? It might help distract from your half-ass reasoning and cheap shots at black Americans.


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## oshkeoto (Sep 21, 2004)

Yeah, KGB, this conversation has gotten a little off track. Your point about blacks and whites sometimes sharing the same culture in America is well taken, but also a very small part of the story. The fact is that most blacks in America live in black neighborhoods, and that black American culture--distinct from white American culture or African culture--has been developing independently for centuries. Believe me, within my own school there are huge cultural differences between blacks and whites. Not that every black is a member of "black culture" and vice-versa, but a distinction can definitely be made.

And, that being said, our home-grown diversity of culture is quite a strength. The combination of black music and Jewish music gave us the distinctly American Gershwin, etc, etc. Whatever our other faults, American culture has been more influential on the rest of the world than that of any other nation, and it could be argued that black Americans--not black immigrants--influenced American culture more than any other ethnic group in this country.

So, in conclusion, 1) to say that black and white American culture is the same with superficial differences is simply untrue, and 2) possibly we should be looking into the kinds of diversity that don't involve immigration.


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## Robert Stark (Dec 8, 2005)

are these epodunk?


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## OMH (Aug 21, 2007)

KGB said:


> "If you don't think African-Americans have a unique and impactful culture, well there's nothing I can do."
> 
> 
> Well, nobody is saying all american-born people are clones, or that there isn't a black-american culture. But the differences are very superficial usually...fashion and other trends start all over, and are something that trancends culture.
> ...


man,you Canadians are annoying.sure canada isn't a bad country,but don't do like canda has contributed much to the world,i dont even know if therre ever was something invented in Canada!


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

Bumping old threads is rude. :evil:


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## Obscene (Jul 22, 2007)

Sweden, total.
2007:

95 750 (new record)
42% of these are non-european citizens.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

^ Ive heard over a third of Stockholmers are foreign born too.
I wish London had stats on these, but the large majority of migrants are unregistered and practicing their EU freedom of abode, of course another chunk being illegal. Since 2001 estimates put it over a million foreign born have come into London.

Throughout the 1990s UK received the most asylum seekers and applications, but the govt has cut down on it making it harder to get in. Ive heard France and then Spain now receive the largest numbers a year.


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## Obscene (Jul 22, 2007)

the spliff fairy said:


> ^ Ive heard over a third of Stockholmers are foreign born too.
> .


No, i'd say about 21% are born outside of Sweden. But If you include second generation immigrants with atleast one parent born outside of sweden it's more like 27, 28%.

In Gothenburg it's about the same, and in Malmö it's something like 10% higher.


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## sprtsluvr8 (Aug 5, 2006)

oshkeoto said:


> Yeah, KGB, this conversation has gotten a little off track. Your point about blacks and whites sometimes sharing the same culture in America is well taken, but also a very small part of the story. The fact is that most blacks in America live in black neighborhoods, and that black American culture--distinct from white American culture or African culture--has been developing independently for centuries. Believe me, within my own school there are huge cultural differences between blacks and whites. Not that every black is a member of "black culture" and vice-versa, but a distinction can definitely be made.
> 
> And, that being said, our home-grown diversity of culture is quite a strength. The combination of black music and Jewish music gave us the distinctly American Gershwin, etc, etc. Whatever our other faults, American culture has been more influential on the rest of the world than that of any other nation, and it could be argued that black Americans--not black immigrants--influenced American culture more than any other ethnic group in this country.
> 
> So, in conclusion, 1) to say that black and white American culture is the same with superficial differences is simply untrue, and 2) possibly we should be looking into the kinds of diversity that don't involve immigration.


It's very easy and quite common for someone like KGB to analyze American cities and the social issues that have plagued our society. Usually this results in a stereotypical assessment of Americans based on media information and historical facts from history class. The moment a U.S. resident mentions "race" we are pegged as racist morons living in segregated communities...and we haven't evolved enough to recognize the beauty of_real _multicultural cities, like Toronto. 

First of all, let me just say that I have never met a Canadian that I didn't like. I've been acquainted with many citizens of Canada through a visting faculty program and also in my social life, and I have always found a very consistently high level of courtesy, respect, tolerance, etc. among Canadians. The common negative trait that I have encountered is a propensity to share harsh criticisms of U.S. cities and culture and how they compare to their counterparts in Canada. But even as superior as Canadian society is purported to be, they never end up returning there to live. I haven't figured out this phenomenon as of yet, but I laugh about it with a couple of Canadian friends.

The current segregation in American society is by choice...much as it is in the traditional Korean, Italian, and Chinese neighborhoods of Toronto and other world cities. Of course the history of forced segregation does exist and there are still WAY too many intolerant and/or ignorant Americans...but most of us aren't as focused on skin color as we are accused of being. As in any multicultural society there are sometimes problems in the U.S. concerning race relations, but it's easy to look down from your "white" city and criticize...


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## Robert Stark (Dec 8, 2005)

brooklynprospect said:


> *2003 Metro Miami Legal Immigration.*
> 
> Included Miami, Ft Lauderdale, and West Palm Beach-Boca Raton PSMAs
> 
> ...



for the nations most latino city I'm surpirsed Mexico is so low.


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