# Johannesburg Disintegration



## speedtouch (Apr 14, 2007)

After coming across this blog I was shocked to see the level of disintegration in downtown Johannesburg after only 13 years of ANC rule. 
If this kind of thing is happening across the country I fear for South Africa. Here are some pictures :









































































*More pictures here :* http://deathofjohannesburg.blogspot.com/


.


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## Pule (May 18, 2004)

Check as to when last that website was updated, that's not tru reflection of our city. Please visit our Gallery here http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=481221&page=30

and also visit my Johannesblog withthe link on my signature


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## Pule (May 18, 2004)

Yes, there are some places which are bad but the city is transforming big time. The buildings I'm posting here used to be as bad as the ones you have posted but now things are changing.


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## Pule (May 18, 2004)

Johannesburg today, yes there are some places that needs attention.


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## joburg (Aug 28, 2003)

a) The blog you found was last updated in 2006. 

b) The blog you found is a white supremacist orgy. They're hardly going to be partial when criticising ANC rule.

c) The pictures you found did exist, but as Pule has shown you, things have improved dramatically.

d) The pictures depicted are the result of poverty, and not a systemic campaign by the ANC to make our cities deplorable. Poverty has always been a factor of SA - it was just conveniently shifted to the edges of society where we couldn't see it. Projects such as AFHCO provide for affordable housing to the poor, and indicate how the ANC is actually trying to eradicate poverty and not just ignore it.

e) I think it's best to consider both sides of the story before believing the racist rubbish that that blog produces...


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## annman (Aug 9, 2007)

*OLD NEWS*

The pictures you posted Speedtouch is very very old news. Cape Town's CBD and environs has seen over R30billion (GBP3billion) in recent years, Johannesburg's CBD has already turned the corner with billions being pumped into Ghandi Square, Constitution Hill, Newtown Cultural Precinct, the Ellis Park district and Braamfontein. Now even Hillbrow (what was the worst part) is undergoing a makeover. Durban is investing billions in their harbour, CBD and especially their new multi-billion Point District... sorry, this thread holds no water, it may have been half true in the early 2000's.


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## Jakes1 (Apr 28, 2006)

The pictures are old, the website is never updated. Yes, Johannesburg did go through a rough patch (extremely rough). There was a time where you could not walk out of the 5star Carlton Hotel without being mugged. Then the exodus began: The Carlton Hotel closed. The Southern Sun complex (once 5star) closed its doors - it was the largest hotel complex in the southern hemisphere. Statues were stolen - the copper sold on the black market. The Stock Exchange left the CBD for the northern suburbs. Attorneys left, CAs left. Restaurants closed down. Buildings were hi-jacked by syndicates, and squatters moved in. 

The fall from grace was spectacular. But as the pictures show - the recent efforts are bearing fruit. investment is increasing. Crime fell - the CBD is now safe to walk.

some pics from the blog, and the reality today.

The Drill Hall, Joubert Park - according to the blog









This is how it looks today


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## Jakes1 (Apr 28, 2006)

La Rose in Hillbrow, according to the blog








Today









The Turbine Hall, once a mess, today Anglo Ashanti's head office









The Mapungubwe Hotel (4 star). First hotel to move back to the CBD. 90% occupancy since opening.


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## Jakes1 (Apr 28, 2006)

Lunch in Newtown









11 Diagonal Street being refurbished for major bank to move in - after Anglo moved down the road into their newly refurbished office

















go and check out the johannesburg thread. Photos are taken by the forumers, walking the streets of the CBD. It will give you a much more realistic view of the city.


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## Jakes1 (Apr 28, 2006)

This is now the site of the corner cafe - just a block down from the four star mapungubwe hotel. So this pic is also OLD.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Jakes1 said:


> go and check out the johannesburg thread. Photos are taken by the forumers, walking the streets of the CBD. It will give you a much more realistic view of the city.


As an impartial observer I'll still contest that the Jo'berg forumers will always seek out the best photos of the city possible. When you look at shots taken of Auckland you'd think that it is the best city ever with absolutely no grit or grime at all! Of course this isn't so, but who really wants to showcase the "real" cities? Very few new world countries that's for sure.


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## Jakes1 (Apr 28, 2006)

you will see our forum dealing with all aspects of the city. Remember, that even in taking photos, one struggles to remain objective. Johannesburg CBD is not perfect - that much is true. But it is improving, and this is the pictures that we wish to showcase. And then, you realise it is very easy and comfortable for an internet troll such as the real realist (the blog creator) to take only pictures of squalor and sell this off as the reality of the New South Africa. Look through our pictures of johannesburg. We have hillbrow in there, with its crime and grime. The fact is: we don't want to make people think johannesburg is perfect(it is far from it). But a lot is done on a daily basis - it is these successes that we want to highlight and learn from.

I hope I give you a bit more clarity on our intentions. The intentions of the blog creator is clear. He wants to sell johannesburg as a dump with pics that are outdated - claiming this to be the current situation.


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

Selective photos can be very misleading, and virtually any major city could be made to look bad with them.


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## annman (Aug 9, 2007)

I wonder if they even went to the SA Cities thread right under this Cityscapes subforum... Go have a look if any of you think SA cities are dumps: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=602685
They are elements of Africa, Europe, USA and the East... they have the benefits off all, but also the issues accompanying all of them. But SA cities are far from being "dumps", I would argue many American cities are worse (Orlando, Atlanta, Houston - many of the newer ones)... ill planned, terrible aesthetics, uncontrolled sprawl and rampant decentralisation with pockets of horrible slums and crime... been there, so can make a fair comparison.


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

"There was a time where you could not walk out of the 5star Carlton Hotel without being mugged."

That is atrocious. People suck!


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

"Orlando, Atlanta, Houston" They are definite sunbelt sprawlfests. However out of the 3 Atlanta at least has a subway and has a very walkable Midtown. Houston has a light rail now. It still has a pathetic downton considering its population.

The worst cities in the US for planning and zoning are Phoenix and Las Vagas.

All SA cities are very dangerous for strolling around in a non-chalant fashion. No US cities are dangerous to the degree of SA cities. People here do not carry machetes or have hyenas as pets. I would feel safer walking around in downtown Detroit than downtown Cape Town.


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## annman (Aug 9, 2007)

Been to Cape Town? I've been to Detroit... felt about the same as I do in Cape Town. Been to Miami, also about the same crime rate. Johannesburg is still quite dangerous, but Cape Town, especially the downtown area, very heavily pedestrianised and pretty safe at night. It's a major nightlife area (Long Street, in downtown).

PS... the criminals in Jo'burg's bad areas have handguns, not Machetes... we have very "technologically advanced" thugs there :lol:


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## speedtouch (Apr 14, 2007)

Thankyou for your replies everyone and the different views of Johannesburg. I realise a city can be made to look good or bad depending on the areas photographed and I'd be interested to know how much of Johannesburg is very run down and how much is Ok. Also is it very dangerous or just a bit dangerous. I've heard it is very dangerous and that the suburbs are heavily protected. 

Also, how is South Africa as a whole. Is it getting better or are things deteriorating. I have heard there are problems with constant power cuts and a generally deteriorating situation. Is this true or not ? I hope South Africa does well in the future but from afar the impression seems to be that there are serious problems.


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## annman (Aug 9, 2007)

Power: Yes, huge headache... not seeming to have much of an effect on the continuous office building boom in the cities, but the power situation is a crisis, but a manageable one at that, just as long as ESKOM's (our power utility) R300billion Build Program keeps continuing apace. 

Danger: Yes, Johannesburg's suburbs, and for that matter some of Pretoria, Durban, and even some Cape Town suburbs have unacceptable rates of crime. Jo'burg's suburbs have notoriously high walls, electric gates, etc. Durban, somewhat, but less so... and Cape Town homes are still comparatively unguarded in many parts. 

South African cities have become much safer from the inside out actually, with Cape Town's CBD (downtown) being probably the safest, and also has a very low crime rate. Inner-city suburbs of Cape Town are the safest, as criminals flee due to CID (city improvement district) efforts. Investment in new residential projects, offices and retail is high in most South African urban areas. Johannesburg, Durban and Pretoria's CBD's are making a huge come-back.

So, it's a mixed bag, but by no means are SA cities in a decline, I think we past that point about 4 years ago, in Cape Town in 1998. Crime is an issue, especially in Gauteng (JHB and PTA). But I, usually when visiting friends there and frequenting better areas, malls, restaurants, whatever... do not feel any constant threat. Cape Town, never really feel threatened at all.

Obviously, if you run hell of leather into the first slum or dark alley you see, like in any world city, you may be in trouble


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## joburg (Aug 28, 2003)

I agree with the people who have pointed out how subjectively people can paint their own city. Joburg forumers (including myself) are of course as guilty of that as anyone else. 

I think the point to made in this thread, however, is that the photos posted above are not from a credible source at all, yet they tend to be viewed by people as indicative of Joburg. 

So to answer your question... As objectively as I can...



speedtouch said:


> Is it getting better or are things deteriorating. I have heard there are problems with constant power cuts and a generally deteriorating situation. Is this true or not ?


Joburg is a very complex city with many extremes - to paint it as perfect would be a misnomer, but to paint it as a city in constant flux would be correct. There are bad elements (like the power cuts that anger South Africans ever so much, as well as the crime, both of which are still at unacceptable levels), but there ARE also good elements. 

What we hate about the Death of Joburg blog is that paints Joburg as a city that is dead and where there is no hope - and it is this that cannot be further from the truth.


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

South Africa is a fragile place. Regardless of social and class problems I think its biggest challenge is something that will never change. South Africa is isolated. 

If people move out they will be moving far away. Moving from SA to Kenya is not like moving from New York to NJ.


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## kulani (Oct 4, 2006)

philadweller said:


> South Africa is a fragile place. Regardless of social and class problems I think its biggest challenge is something that will never change. South Africa is isolated.
> 
> If people move out they will be moving far away. Moving from SA to Kenya is not like moving from New York to NJ.


I don't even know what to make of your comments. but they do come across as very ignorant. Its quite obvious that you don't really know much about South Africa (nothing unusual though coming from an American, no offense intended). Although i am impressed you at least know that Kenya is not an hour's drive from South Africa. 

:lol::lol:


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## HirakataShi (Feb 8, 2004)

How is the country's geographic isolation relevant? Argentina, Chile, New Zealand are also geographically isolated from the big Northern markets. Geographic isolation isn't the problem.


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## Universal Soulja (Mar 16, 2007)

Idunno Im not from there but even in my own neighborhood just because trash is on the ground doesnt mean its disintergrating and showing groups of blacks living does not mean the city is desintergerating. Basically u need more evidence because this could be any city in america on any given day.


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## koolkid (Apr 17, 2006)

philadweller said:


> *South Africa is a fragile place.*


This is somewhat true. There are incredible problems South Africa faces that it does make sense for people to complain about them(We all know what they are). If Zuma becomes president then I wouldn't really expect too much of a bright future for this country. Before any southafrican starts throwing rocks at me I'd like to say I'm not bashing in anyway. Heck, I'd even say some of you agree with me.

As for the pics, well, what better way to prove the blog wrong, eh? That rail link is going to be impressive once it's done.


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## annman (Aug 9, 2007)

*State of Jo'burg from a Capetonian...*

Well, I was just up in Johannesburg from Cape Town this weekend, and from a Capetonian perspective, Joburg is impressive, it is not regressing and investment in the city is of meteoric proportions... just look at a couple of pics I took. Their are very serious concerns in this country, but even if we just maintain the status quo, we as South Africans will adapt and remain resilient. I have little faith in our politicians, but much faith in my fellow South Africans. 

Flying out of OR Tambo International... Sandton









Johannesburg Central...









OT Tambo International...









Gautrain (high-speed urban rail) construction at OR Tambo...









Sandton at night...

















Sandton construction...









The way to get around Jo'burg?!... Hehe









En Route on the M1 towards the CBD...









*Took them all myself*


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## Jakes1 (Apr 28, 2006)

Hey annman - was some of your pics taken from the westpoint in grayston drive?


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## Jakes1 (Apr 28, 2006)

Jakes1 said:


> Hey annman - was some of your pics taken from the westpoint in grayston drive?


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## annman (Aug 9, 2007)

Yes, was taken from the 11th floor of Westpointe. Think that's the Investec expansion across Grayston Drive. Was staying with friends over there.


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

Very impressive. I may sound ignorant especially since I have never been to Africa.
I do know that the country is having problems governing itself. It is nice to see a building boom in metro Jo-Burg. 

What is this all about? Aren't there laws preventing such dangerous acts? Sights like this make me question the civility of South Africa. Hanging out of moving cars on highways is illegal here and plain stupid.


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## annman (Aug 9, 2007)

We don't call it a lack of civility, we call it a societal quirk... Don't think the Metro Police would like it, but doubt much will get done about it... they care a lot more about making money by sitting next to the road with a laser-camera catching speedsters.


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## kulani (Oct 4, 2006)

philadweller said:


> Very impressive. I may sound ignorant especially since I have never been to Africa.
> I do know that the country is having problems governing itself. It is nice to see a building boom in metro Jo-Burg.
> 
> What is this all about? Aren't there laws preventing such dangerous acts? Sights like this make me question the civility of South Africa. Hanging out of moving cars on highways is illegal here and plain stupid.


Yes, all your posts do expose that typical American ignorance that we have come to expect all over the world. (I still remember a guy who pointed at Australia to indicate where he thought Iraq was on the world map). I think it will be better to just admit that your knowledge of South Africa is zero and you simply rely on western media who are only interested in showing the Africa of poverty and disease that you guys are so accustomed to. 

Regarding the construction laborer hanging out of a truck, you clearly don't know how things work in a developing country like Indonesia, India, South Africa or even China. *South Africa is not America*. Ask your forefathers how they used to improvise to build all the wealth and infrastructure that America has today back in the 18th and 19th century and you will find out that they probably used to have to cramp some slaves in a truck to get them to a construction site and some had their feet hanging out of the truck.


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## kulani (Oct 4, 2006)

koolkid said:


> This is somewhat true. There are incredible problems South Africa faces that it does make sense for people to complain about them(We all know what they are). If Zuma becomes president then I wouldn't really expect too much of a bright future for this country. Before any southafrican starts throwing rocks at me I'd like to say I'm not bashing in anyway. Heck, I'd even say some of you agree with me.
> 
> As for the pics, well, what better way to prove the blog wrong, eh? That rail link is going to be impressive once it's done.


I agree with you that South Africa has some major problems such as Crime, HIV-Aids and Poverty. But ask any political or economic commentator who is clued up on South Africa and they will all agree that South Africa is not a fragile country politically. Its probably one of the most stable countries in Africa. We have very strong institutions in the form of parliament, independant judiciary, watch dogs and independant media all of which continue to secure the future of this country against any political party. The jury is still out on Zuma and i would not judge him before he has had at least a year in office. In fact he is already proving so many skeptics wrong.


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

"Yes, all your posts do expose that typical American ignorance that we have come to expect all over the world. (I still remember a guy who pointed at Australia to indicate where he thought Iraq was on the world map). I think it will be better to just admit that your knowledge of South Africa is zero and you simply rely on western media who are only interested in showing the Africa of poverty and disease that you guys are so accustomed to."

If you think I am ignorant you should meet the rest of America. Please you are way too defensive. You can see people doing this here. America is no gem either so get over yourself. I am a single gay man that is extremely liberal. I am also an aetheist that smokes cigarettes. 

There are people that are potentially very offended by me. Maybe I am ignorant big deal but I am certainly not your typical American. You see there is no such thing as a typical American. We are not all SUV driving, resource depleting, bible thumping fat hogs.

I read a lot of maps and am very aware of geography I think that you are showing your ignorance.


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## kulani (Oct 4, 2006)

I am sure you do read a lot of maps, but my point is that Ignorance in the US is so rife that even the "not so ignorant" people like you, don't actually know that South Africa is not a fragile country and that in a developing country like SA, its quite normal to have a truck packed with construction workers (with one hanging his leg outside), simply because the contractors have to do more with less, because this is not the developed world. For crying out loud, this is Africa!!

Heck, in India the trains in Mumbai are jam packed with passengers hanging from everything they can hold on to, just so they can get to work on time. My suggestion is get out of America a little bit, catch a plane to Indonesia, Philippines, India, China or any country in Africa and venture out into the rural bits especially and then you will be more informed. Or read lots of books about these countries then you can come and tell us which one is fragile and which one is not.


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## StormShadow (Apr 14, 2005)

Even judging by the images of this city that I had seen on the SA section where there are a number of huge galleries with many recent up to date images, I wouldn't state or agree that this city is deteriorating or came to a negative halt. There are many recent development occurring, well maintained structures/infrastructure and the city appears lively.


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

Kulani, I would love to visit Jo-Burg. Moreso than Cape Town. I want to be the judge of the character of Jo-Burg. If I listened to the media I would be celibate and living in a monastery and I would not be smoking cigarettes. I love this site because we get to see candid photos by locals depicting cities more honestly than anything that Conde Nast puts out.

Just recently a woman was arrested in Florida for having her case of beer in a seatbelt and not her child. Talk about stupid. 

America could be breaking down while South Africa is rising up. Only time will tell. 

I know what you mean about Americans and their notorious ignorance of geography. I heard someone say I want to go to Sydney Austria last month. Also, there are people here that think Seattle is in Canada. In America....yes in America.

I am also aware that there are millions of Africa’s out there. Morroco is nothing like Zimbabwe and Egypt is nothing like Nigeria. Somalia is nothing like South Africa.


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## kulani (Oct 4, 2006)

philadweller said:


> Kulani, I would love to visit Jo-Burg. Moreso than Cape Town. I want to be the judge of the character of Jo-Burg. If I listened to the media I would be celibate and living in a monastery and I would not be smoking cigarettes. I love this site because we get to see candid photos by locals depicting cities more honestly than anything that Conde Nast puts out.
> 
> Just recently a woman was arrested in Florida for having her case of beer in a seatbelt and not her child. Talk about stupid.
> 
> ...


You are most welcome, i hope you do let us know when you are ready to come to South Africa. Perhaps you can do so for the 2010 FIFA World Cup.


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## HirakataShi (Feb 8, 2004)

http://www.mnet.co.za/Mnet/Shows/carteblanche/story.asp?Id=3487

Click the above link for an assessment of South Africa recently seen on M-NET.


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## Pule (May 18, 2004)

Interesting article about South Africa.

http://www.702.co.za/download/boe.pdf


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## Jakes1 (Apr 28, 2006)

More pics of a "disintegrating" Johannesburg

A little shop in Marshall street, picture taken 2006









Today - picture taken tuesday, 13 May, 2008.


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## Pule (May 18, 2004)

All these photos were taken by me.


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## annman (Aug 9, 2007)

Oh My Pule... Look how _downhill_ Johannesburg has gone, it looks _terrible_! :lol:


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## Durbsboi (Dec 2, 2005)

Jakes1 said:


> More pics of a "disintegrating" Johannesburg
> 
> A little shop in Marshall street, picture taken 2006
> 
> ...


devastating, :lol:


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## HirakataShi (Feb 8, 2004)

What's that? People walking on the streets? So much for the idea that South Africans are terrified to set foot outside of their homes due to crime. :bash:

I love that South Africans have reclaimed this thread. 

Here's a vid.


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## Lydon (Sep 7, 2007)

My eyes...my eyes! This is atrocious! Bulldoze the lot!


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## christos-greece (Feb 19, 2008)

^^ that CORNER-CAFE looks empty :lol:


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## speedtouch (Apr 14, 2007)

Ok guys, I am beginning to get the impression that you are not quite telling the truth here. I have been informed by a reliable source that Johannesburg is extremely dangerous and that I would not survive if I walked around it at night. He said I would be murdered almost certainly. 

I can see that the infrastructure is improving without a doubt, but I suspect it is still a very dangerous city. He also said violent crime was rising in South Africa, not falling. Is he correct or are you guilding the lilly a little ?


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## Lydon (Sep 7, 2007)

speedtouch said:


> He said I would be murdered almost certainly.


:banana: Now I've heard everything :lol:


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

Everyone, please edit your entries and tell us who took the pictures, so that I don't have to delete them. If you took the pictures yourself, please tell us that! Thank you.


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## speedtouch (Apr 14, 2007)

Lydon said:


> :banana: Now I've heard everything :lol:


Well Lydon, give me some information. It is very difficult for people outside South Africa to know what the truth is. The stories that come out in the media here are often quite negative. The impression given can be that South Africa is beginning to sink beneath a tide of violence. 

I know for instance that many suburbs are highly protected with high walls, cctv, security guards etc and yet people are still being robbed and murdered in their homes. I am simply trying to ascertain the true extent of these problems and whether the picture some of the media paints is accurate or not. So is central Johannesburg very dangerous or not ?


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## Pule (May 18, 2004)

christos-greece said:


> ^^ that CORNER-CAFE looks empty :lol:



And what's the point you trying to make here? If you can try to stretch your mind a little bit, you will actually see why there's people infront and there's none at the back.


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## Pule (May 18, 2004)

speedtouch said:


> Well Lydon, give me some information. It is very difficult for people outside South Africa to know what the truth is. The stories that come out in the media here are often quite negative. The impression given can be that South Africa is beginning to sink beneath a tide of violence.


That's the sad part played by the media, but I guess it good that we have the likes of SSC so that we can share. I myself knew Bogota, Colombia as a very dangerous place in the world but SSC have opened eyes for me and the same goes for Rio in Brazil.

We Joburgers love our city but we need to to tell lies in regards to problems that we having with crime and the fact that there's also a challenge in placing people in formal houses but both of them are being address and the reason we posting all these photos is to show you all about the progress that have made. There are places that are dangerous but the installation of the CCTV cameras, the Metro police precense as well as the security guys have actually helped in reducing crime.

The sad part is that when times are hard, especially in Africa, every form of media will make noise but when they are u-turning everybody looks fo rthe negetive. Which media is reporting the fact that the 2010 SWC stadiums will be completed before their deadlines? Which media reports about Gautrain, www.gautrain.co.za, which one reports about BRT, Taxi Recapitilization and improvements of trains. Who reports on increasing number of tourists. The answer is NONE.

We had power supply problem and everybody made noise and said that South Africa is going down and neglecting the fact that there are projects currently to address this issue and when things seems to have settled no one reports back to say that things are coming all right. 

Please visit the following websites, they will definately help you in understadning South Africa and yes we go problems and we are busy sorting them out.



> I know for instance that many suburbs are highly protected with high walls, cctv, security guards etc and yet people are still being robbed and murdered in their homes. I am simply trying to ascertain the true extent of these problems and whether the picture some of the media paints is accurate or not. So is central Johannesburg very dangerous or not ?


South Africa have been having high walls even during the times of apartheid and yes we still do because of crime. Johannesburg is not dangerous as people are saying. We live there and we post on SSC on a daily base and we even shoe you guys photos that we take. But the one thing is that one just need to be careful and everyting will take care of itself.


I hope I have answered you, by the camera that I have used to take those pics is still in my position. If Joburg was that dangerous we the SSC member could have all died. Racism plays a role in negetive reports that you reading. I do not believe that the bad happeing should be oushed under the carpet but a balanced report will be appropriate.

- www.joburg.org.za - Official Johannesburg website
- www.southafrica.info - Official South African info website
- www.sagoodnews.co.za - With all the bad news being reported by the western media, there's a website established to tell the world of the good that are happeing.


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## Jakes1 (Apr 28, 2006)

Jakes1 said:


> More pics of a "disintegrating" Johannesburg
> 
> A little shop in Marshall street, picture taken 2006
> 
> ...


First pic- death of joburg blog

second pic - mine

All of pule's pics are taken by him as well.


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## Jakes1 (Apr 28, 2006)

speedtouch said:


> Well Lydon, give me some information. It is very difficult for people outside South Africa to know what the truth is. The stories that come out in the media here are often quite negative. The impression given can be that South Africa is beginning to sink beneath a tide of violence.
> 
> I know for instance that many suburbs are highly protected with high walls, cctv, security guards etc and yet people are still being robbed and murdered in their homes. I am simply trying to ascertain the true extent of these problems and whether the picture some of the media paints is accurate or not. So is central Johannesburg very dangerous or not ?


In my view central joburg is safer than the suburbs during the day because you have many people on the streets, plus cctv surveilance and security guards.

And really - i live in centurion, near joburg. And i do not get murdered every day. I walk the cbd with my camera and wallet - no problems, not even once.


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## Jakes1 (Apr 28, 2006)

speedtouch said:


> Well Lydon, give me some information. It is very difficult for people outside South Africa to know what the truth is. The stories that come out in the media here are often quite negative. The impression given can be that South Africa is beginning to sink beneath a tide of violence.
> 
> I know for instance that many suburbs are highly protected with high walls, cctv, security guards etc and yet people are still being robbed and murdered in their homes. I am simply trying to ascertain the true extent of these problems and whether the picture some of the media paints is accurate or not. So is central Johannesburg very dangerous or not ?


In my view central joburg is safer than the suburbs during the day because you have many people on the streets, plus cctv surveilance and security guards.

And really - i live in centurion, near joburg. And i do not get murdered every day. I walk the cbd with my camera and wallet - no problems, not even once.


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

Thanks for adding the photo credits, guys!


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## Galandar (Dec 2, 2004)

Such a big difference in the areas of the same country. Some places are worse than terrible and other ones are ultramoderns. I don't understand how can they count South Africa as a developed country. It is the same "developed" as Brazil, then UN needs to count Brazil as a developed country too. 
I suppose Tunisia is the most developed country in whole african continent by considering the level of development in all the parts of the country and the difference between people from the cities and rural areas. Although, perhaps i am wrong


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## channel (Apr 24, 2008)

cool pictures


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## Lydon (Sep 7, 2007)

Galandar said:


> Such a big difference in the areas of the same country. Some places are worse than terrible and other ones are ultramoderns. I don't understand how can they count South Africa as a developed country. It is the same "developed" as Brazil, then UN needs to count Brazil as a developed country too.
> I suppose Tunisia is the most developed country in whole african continent by considering the level of development in all the parts of the country and the difference between people from the cities and rural areas. Although, perhaps i am wrong


Excuse me if I'm missing something, but the last time I checked SA was considered a developing country with many well-developed areas.


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## spongeg (May 1, 2006)

> The sad part is that when times are hard, especially in Africa, every form of media will make noise but when they are u-turning everybody looks fo rthe negetive. Which media is reporting the fact that the 2010 SWC stadiums will be completed before their deadlines? Which media reports about Gautrain, www.gautrain.co.za, which one reports about BRT, Taxi Recapitilization and improvements of trains. Who reports on increasing number of tourists. The answer is NONE.


i live in Canada and there was a lot of coverage when that big mall opened in sowteo - on the canadian, american and british news - we get BBC news here - there was also a story about the improved train service in Soweto

there are articles about how great south african wine is and what a great tourist destination it is as well but south africa like many other "exotic" places is not where the average joe wants to go on vacation - travellers yes - vacationers no - most Americans and Canadians only get 2 weeks of vacation a year and travelling so far away is not such an easy thing on limited time - anything more than 1 airplane ride is restictive for the casual vacationer

there have also been periodic reports about FIFA and improvements going on there for 2010 and i am sure when the venues are done and the games are on there will be plenty of coverage

but south africa much like any other country outside of Canada/USA is not covered in the news unless its the opening of a major project - like gautrain or the completed stadiums etc.

daily updates or such will never happen and a lot of the shows on discovery etc do the shows from start to finish and only air years after they were started

there is a daily news show here in canada on discovery they might cover somethings if it fits but thats pretty limited

I am sure south African TV news does not cover the construction boom going on in Vancovuer for the olympics in 2010, the new subway/train line to the airport, or Calgarys and Edmontons LRT expansion etc,

the media is the same the world over - they will bark and bark on about the negative things happenning, cost over runs etc but if something goes right they devote minimal time and effort to it - they make it like a footnote

everything is down to the second in these times, I know the local noon news is an hour long - they will usually devote 90 seconds to "world news" 

so don't fret south africa gets a good deal of coverage no more than any other country does

I was in SA in 2002 and downtown wasn't too scarey - it did look a little 3rd world in places but from these pics its looking much better 

and keep in mind a lot of what people here is from ex-south africans who go back to visit and just remember things a differently and will make point of saying its just not the same blah blah blah it used to be so beautiful and clean now its all chickens and fruit stands

or like last night i was at a bar and a guy was standing behind me and i overheard him talking about his south african male friend who cannot get a job there cause hes a white male so a lot of the negative stuff that goes around is just word of mouth and is biased one way or the other


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## spongeg (May 1, 2006)

for what its worth Brazil is probably just as much if not more villified in media


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## annman (Aug 9, 2007)

*Media is a business* and unfortunately, like any business, they have to make money. Money is made through advertising revenue, which can only be expensive if their viewership is sky-high. And, sensationalism, tragedy and horrific news sells, not the happy-happy-joy-joy news. I think we'll unfortunately have to accept, negative coverage will always dominate the media, no matter if it's CNN, BBC, SKY, MSNBC, CBC, SABC, eNews, AlJazeera whomever...


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

What part of the world is really improving? I can't say that any part is.


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## annman (Aug 9, 2007)

^^ Well, the world is a pretty harsh place to live in, but man... that is a colossally grim philosophical assessment of the state of Earth and mankind!


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## Harkeb (Oct 12, 2004)

Thank all you true Saffers for setting the record straight. Joburg is on the up like never before. I couldnt be more proud of the improvements being done and construction taking place there.


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## Pule (May 18, 2004)

spongeg said:


> i live in Canada and there was a lot of coverage when that big mall opened in sowteo - on the canadian, american and british news - we get BBC news here - there was also a story about the improved train service in Soweto
> 
> there are articles about how great south african wine is and what a great tourist destination it is as well but south africa like many other "exotic" places is not where the average joe wants to go on vacation - travellers yes - vacationers no - most Americans and Canadians only get 2 weeks of vacation a year and travelling so far away is not such an easy thing on limited time - anything more than 1 airplane ride is restictive for the casual vacationer
> 
> ...



Correctly so but remeber but what do you see when Africa is shown on TV? How many people on SSC we amazed by the fact tha South Africa have proper highways, bus system etc. But we all know that the western nantion blings are shown all over the place.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Pule said:


> Correctly so but remeber but what do you see when Africa is shown on TV? How many people on SSC we amazed by the fact tha South Africa have proper highways, bus system etc. But we all know that the western nantion blings are shown all over the place.


Nonsense, I knew all of those things, however, it doesn't stop my view that there are still deep underlying problems with South Africa that need to be addressed rather than being swept under the carpet and glossed over by fancy developments and gentrification.

I think much of the "bad" media coverage is in the mind of the South Africans. I have seen plenty of positive stories on the BBC and even elsewhere (read Der Spiegel and you guys have even come up there before) so I think trumpeting this "woe is me the world hates us" bandwagon is nonsensical and misguided. One thing I do NOT like is the fact that South African forumers in particular, more than any other, are quick to yell from the rooftop about their achievements everywhere. The prevalence of the Gautrain in EVERY SINGLE TRANSPORT THREAD POSSIBLE is only further evidence of this (look at the stations, the rolling stock, the type of upholstery, the fitting of the doors, the screw heads... yaddayadda). The Gautrain, though an impressive project, is not the be all and end all of infrastructure investment worldwide. Cairo is doing a lot with its metro system; Algiers is building an amazing metro, so it is not like it is the only big infrastructure project in Africa. Blind nationalistic pride is unnattractive no matter which nation it comes from and as a result I admit that I tend to be harder on South Africa and their developments than I otherwise would be - "tall poppy, cut it down" mentality if you will.

I think a little perspective is needed on both sides of this argument. South Africa has come a long way since the apartheid government was toppled, but there are still improvements to make and with the current situation in Jo'berg I think this is once again thrown into the spotlight.


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## Pule (May 18, 2004)

Svartmetall said:


> Nonsense, I knew all of those things, however, it doesn't stop my view that there are still deep underlying problems with South Africa that need to be addressed rather than being swept under the carpet and glossed over by fancy developments and gentrification.
> 
> I think much of the "bad" media coverage is in the mind of the South Africans.


Selective reading results in stupidity and no one has ever sad problems must be swept under the carpet. You are a member of SSC and how many people in this world are? So its forums like these that relay the message of the true South Africa but the likes of BBC which failed to recognise the economic growth taking place is Soweto decided to go tell the world how Soweto is flooded with shacks and that pverty is seens everywhere. Don't come with nonsense os saying that we receiving fair media coverage. I watch BBC, CNN and Skynews. I know what I'm talking about. The only media that I have seen reporting a balanced story in Travel Channel. 



Svartmetall said:


> I have seen plenty of positive stories on the BBC and even elsewhere (read Der Spiegel and you guys have even come up there before) so I think trumpeting this "woe is me the world hates us" bandwagon is nonsensical and misguided. One thing I do NOT like is the fact that South African forumers in particular, more than any other, are quick to yell from the rooftop about their achievements everywhere. The prevalence of the Gautrain in EVERY SINGLE TRANSPORT THREAD POSSIBLE is only further evidence of this (look at the stations, the rolling stock, the type of upholstery, the fitting of the doors, the screw heads... yaddayadda). The Gautrain, though an impressive project, is not the be all and end all of infrastructure investment worldwide. Cairo is doing a lot with its metro system; Algiers is building an amazing metro, so it is not like it is the only big infrastructure project in Africa. Blind nationalistic pride is unnattractive no matter which nation it comes from and as a result I admit that I tend to be harder on South Africa and their developments than I otherwise would be - "tall poppy, cut it down" mentality if you will.


You have started again with Gautrain and we South African asked for threads to be consolidated as we never botified one another that we have started those kind of threads and by doing is we accepting the mistakes that we have done. 

Is there a need to comapre us with all those other countries? If that's the case then I think you need to compare us with them fromall spheres. I think its stupid of you to say that.





Svartmetall said:


> I think a little perspective is needed on both sides of this argument. South Africa has come a long way since the apartheid government was toppled, but there are still improvements to make and with the current situation in *Jo'burg* I think this is once again thrown into the spotlight.



Yes we have a situation in Jozi which again is being fed to the whole world while other are being shuved under the carpet. Its easy for you to all the above forgeting the fact that there are South Africans working overseas who are telling us about all the bad things that happens in other countries but the media doesn't cover. 

We are not perfect as a country but the good thing is that we working on our problems and we tend to win everytime.


I have never seen you questioning threads that have been opened about degration of our cities in Africa even though those people look only at one side of the story and ignore others. Someone opened a thread earlier this year about *Lagos* and showing how dirty it is and you the most intelligent and master of all, you never bothered to go back and verify what was posted there. I don't even see the reason of arguing with you.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Pule said:


> Selective reading results in stupidity and no one has ever sad problems must be swept under the carpet. You are a member of SSC and how many people in this world are? So its forums like these that relay the message of the true South Africa but the likes of BBC which failed to recognise the economic growth taking place is Soweto decided to go tell the world how Soweto is flooded with shacks and that pverty is seens everywhere. Don't come with nonsense os saying that we receiving fair media coverage. I watch BBC, CNN and Skynews. I know what I'm talking about. The only media that I have seen reporting a balanced story in Travel Channel.
> 
> You have started again with Gautrain and we South African asked for threads to be consolidated as we never botified one another that we have started those kind of threads and by doing is we accepting the mistakes that we have done.
> 
> ...


Resorting to calling me stupid because I challenge you on a few points is unfair. Lets keep this at a civil level shall we please?

So, you watch BBC World Service, correct? The BBC World Service as any British person will tell you is completely different to watching BBC domestic news. I grew up with that service and I can tell you that they are completely different. BBC News24 offers far more objective and in depth coverage than you tend to get on BBC World Service so be careful about making sweeping generalisations about the representation of South Africa in those media outlets.

SkyNews is country specific. Is it SkyNewsNZ, is it the Australian one, and is it BSkyB? You have to again differentiate between these services rather than just making a glib remark about having sourced your resentment from various different media outlets. For CNN I can't comment as I avoid the American media networks on the whole.

Read international newspapers and magazines and you'll get a much better appreciation and a much more in depth analysis of current affairs than simply relying upon the internet and television. These tend to cater far more for the popular masses as they want to be entertained rather than informed. Those who go out there and specifically buy a broadsheet newspaper on the other hand tend to want to have a balanced and thorough analysis rather than popularist pap.

I speak not just of Gautrain; I used that as a symptomatic example. I've had Mo on the Kiwi boards lambasting our preparations for the NZ Rugby World Cup - yet what right does he have to do so? If criticism is a one way street the world will become a very unfair place very quickly! Learn to take criticism and then perhaps we'll all accept more criticism from you guys. 

As for events in other countries, to which are you referring? Also, using a method of deflection by saying "other countries have problems too" does nothing to improve your case. Yes, every country has idiosyncrasies and problems in their societies, yet they don't turn around and say "WELL LOOK AT SOUTH AFRICA..." on the whole. We don't vilify another country to bolster our own standing, instead we face the problem. Sometimes the best form of defence is not attack as it will only make you seem more nationalistic than before.

I happen to like South Africa and respect the country a lot so don't take all of this as a personal attack. I just dislike pontificating and banner waving.


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## Lydon (Sep 7, 2007)

Svartmetall said:


> Nonsense, I knew all of those things, however, it doesn't stop my view that there are still deep underlying problems with South Africa that need to be addressed rather than being swept under the carpet and glossed over by fancy developments and gentrification.
> 
> I think much of the "bad" media coverage is in the mind of the South Africans. I have seen plenty of positive stories on the BBC and even elsewhere (read Der Spiegel and you guys have even come up there before) so I think trumpeting this "woe is me the world hates us" bandwagon is nonsensical and misguided. One thing I do NOT like is the fact that South African forumers in particular, more than any other, are quick to yell from the rooftop about their achievements everywhere. The prevalence of the Gautrain in EVERY SINGLE TRANSPORT THREAD POSSIBLE is only further evidence of this (look at the stations, the rolling stock, the type of upholstery, the fitting of the doors, the screw heads... yaddayadda). The Gautrain, though an impressive project, is not the be all and end all of infrastructure investment worldwide. Cairo is doing a lot with its metro system; Algiers is building an amazing metro, so it is not like it is the only big infrastructure project in Africa. Blind nationalistic pride is unnattractive no matter which nation it comes from and as a result I admit that I tend to be harder on South Africa and their developments than I otherwise would be - "tall poppy, cut it down" mentality if you will.
> 
> I think a little perspective is needed on both sides of this argument. South Africa has come a long way since the apartheid government was toppled, but there are still improvements to make and with the current situation in Jo'berg I think this is once again thrown into the spotlight.


I completely disagree with you. Clearly you are more in the know than the average citizen. I'm sure SSC plays a major role is portraying the true state of many countries, but you've most likely done research elsewhere also.

Most people, however, don't care to do research and as such just believe whatever they are shown on the television. You may say we're overreacting to what people really think about South Africa and more importantly Africa, but I have experienced the lack of true knowledge time and again when speaking to people from countries outside of Africa. The _large majority_ of the time they express shock at the fact that we have cities, never mind the fact that we don't have elephants and various other wildlife living on the streets. 

Lastly, I would like to point to the fact that different people started those various Gautrain threads. If you would do a little more research, which is seems you're very good at doing, you would notice that the reason for the different threads was a misunderstanding on our part. There have been calls to the mods (by South African forumers) to have the threads merged into one. Whether or not those requests have been dealt with is in the mods' hands at the moment. 

Accusing us of being blindly nationalistic because of a misunderstanding is quite a bit of an over-reaction. We will, whether anyone likes it or not, however, defend our country when false accusations are made such as that of Joburg falling apart. This can not be farther from the truth. It once again points to the fact that people have skewed opinions of South Africa, otherwise this thread would never have existed in the first place.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

I agree that there are unfortunate cases of abject stupidity in the wider world with regards to the perception of South Africa, however, there are ways and means to counteract these arguments. As I said, pontification and banner waving is not my thing. 

I don't go to the SSC South Africa forum as I quite like to recieve unbiassed information rather than speculation - hard facts are a good thing, media outlets (yes including some South African) are my source of information on your country. 

As for my comments about blind nationalism, I have to deal with a lot of South Africans in New Zealand, and I am dating one at the moment (have done for three years now) and I can tell you first hand from my dealings with them that there is a distinct taint of nationalism in what they say. This world is very much distinct from the (hopefully) more educated group of people who present themselves on SSC, and therefore forms a better picture of the "average" South African in my opinion. The ex-pats generally fall into a few distinct catagories:

#1. "I wish everything in South Africa was like it used to be before they let a **** in power"
#2. "My quality of life in South Africa was so much better, look at this awful country"
#3. "Nah man, that place is just flying apart it's a warzone".

All of these statements are blind, wrong and ultimately biassed, but are an important subset of views from the ex-pat community and therefore of South Africans. Admittedly the last one is the reverse of my claims to nationalism, however, this view is actually expressed by only the odd handful rather than a majority.

I am a born and raised Brit and I find Kiwis (and Aussies) to be occasionally obsessed with their country and trumpeting their own achievements too, so don't think that this is a South African specific view of mine. I'm more used to a far more balanced (and perhaps) slightly negative view of the country as a whole including the "warts and all" analysis. Perhaps it's my own failing in viewing you guys as overly boastful about your countries achievements as I am far too used to cutting down my own countries achievements? It's always difficult when you have a meeting of cultural values online for there not to be differences in perception and so the least I can do is try to articulate as best as possible my overall impressions, be they favourable or not.

Anyway, thanks for your rational (and unconfrontational) reply.


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## Pule (May 18, 2004)

Sva, you lashed at us without asking why we had a couple of threads of the same thing without even looking at when the threads were started and again some were in different discussion forums.

Well before I continue, I think they way you ended that the way you were supposed to start and I'm sorry for jumping at you.


So many people in SSC have alshed at our country and the continent at large and ignored the good that happens there. All we ask for is a balanced report and its sad that people in SSC who have got the opporunity to visit our forums and see for themselves what's happening are report an imbalanced stories.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Pule said:


> Sva, you lashed at us without asking why we had a couple of threads of the same thing without even looking at when the threads were started and again some were in different discussion forums.
> 
> Well before I continue, I think they way you ended that the way you were supposed to start and I'm sorry for jumping at you.
> 
> ...


No worries about lashing out at me - I don't take offense at all as it is a touchy subject. 

I agree that achievements are often overlooked as it is easier to do so than to acknowledge them, however, I've been following developments in your country for quite a while and to say I'm excited for future prospects is an understatement. I simply don't go for the overly emotional superlative laden replies you tend to get on SSC as a whole (except for in cases of amazing aesthetic beauty of course). 

The amount of good news coming from African countries is on the increase in most (rational) media outlets though I can assure you as I am testament to this.


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## Jakes1 (Apr 28, 2006)

Take a peek in the south african forum to see what we actually talk about there. Remember, we responded to the posting of an outdated pic - proving with new pics that it was in fact outdated. In our johannesburg threads we talk about issues in the CBD and the city - it is not sugarcoated there. 

You complain that we only post pics of the lovely first world parts? Go and look through the johannesburg photo thread and you will see how wrong you are. 

This thread was created by speedtouch - using outdated pics. We posted pics to show that they were outdated. You clearly have issues with SA, and thats fine, we are all welcome to our own opinions.

Remember, no news service can ever give you a complete rational experience of any country. There is always more. So you cannot be an expert on SA without ever setting foot here. In the same way I have views on the urban problems in detroit - but I can only form a partly rational overview of the city after visiting it in July.

Johannesburg is complex. Some parts are amazing, other parts are shit. Johannesburg is like a sad old prostitute with a golden heart. She grows on you, you can see glimpses of the past glory (and glory a very strong word here, she was and is still a prostitute). But you can't judge from afar. you can have an opinion, and in part you might be correct.

But believe me, even as someone who has lived in jozi for 10 years - I am still surprised on a daily basis.





Svartmetall said:


> No worries about lashing out at me - I don't take offense at all as it is a touchy subject.
> 
> I agree that achievements are often overlooked as it is easier to do so than to acknowledge them, however, I've been following developments in your country for quite a while and to say I'm excited for future prospects is an understatement. I simply don't go for the overly emotional superlative laden replies you tend to get on SSC as a whole (except for in cases of amazing aesthetic beauty of course).
> 
> The amount of good news coming from African countries is on the increase in most (rational) media outlets though I can assure you as I am testament to this.


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## annman (Aug 9, 2007)

Eventhough I am from Cape Town and still live here (actually re-emigrated back after living in America for 2 years), and we are notoriously Johannesburg's greatest critics. Slating it as ugly, ungenteel, money-hungry and dangerous. I have always had some inexplicable soft place for that city. 

The place is definitely improving and looking quite gleaming and impressive on many fronts. But Jakes summed it up like a Jozi-poet in saying 'she's like an old prostitute with a golden heart...' not a better phrase was ever spoken about the LA-of-the-Highveld.

Compared to many US cities, Johannesburg is actually a very attractive place. Yes, some places are shit, some places elegant, as Jakes mentioned. Compared with many cities I've been to, Johannesburg has got something to it that is more than just buildings... 

London, New York, Cape Town, Stockholm, Rio, Paris, Toronto, LA, Seattle... I've been to them all... no friendlier people will you ever meet, no friendlier major-city have I ever been to, Jo'burgers have heart!


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## Harkeb (Oct 12, 2004)

Pule & other Joburg Forum contributers, please allow me to post these latest cityscapes of Joburg. I believe pictures speak more than words.
No need to argue with fools who have never even visited the South African forum before, yet feel qualified enough to their raise their ignorant opinions here. 

-----------------------------------------------------------
*Johannesburg 2008*








































































White people are actually found in the CBD, without a care in the world. Shocking! 

















People are actually walking their dogs in well maintained parks.


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## Harkeb (Oct 12, 2004)

*This is what's happening across the city. A city disintegrating? Think again.*


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## Paulo2004 (Oct 13, 2004)

Wonderful Joburg. So many memories, so many sunny days!


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

Sandton looks boring I like downtown Jo-Burg so much more interesting.

Go Jo-burg!!!


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