# Urban Chaos??



## taboe (Jan 30, 2007)

Which type of city development do you prefer: urban chaos or harmony? 
By 'urban chaos' I mean a complete mixture of architectural styles, heights, colours, etc... An example would be some parts of London, I guess, where '60 behemoths stand next to neoclassical edifices . 
'Harmony' would be the opposite: carefully planning areas, only construct buildings in a similar style, same height,... as the existing buildings in the surrounding area. An example is Paris, where the skyscrapers are banned from the historic center.

The reason I ask is this:










The opera in Antwerp has just been restored. We had a little discussion on the Belgian forum about the '60s building next to it. Is it in the wrong place? Or do you like the 'urban chaos' it creates?


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## Puinkabouter (Jan 8, 2007)

The neighbour was built in 1974, not in the sixties 

I'm not sure about the 3 other options, but I'm not a fan of a complete chaos of styles and heights.


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## Unionstation13 (Aug 31, 2006)

I like harmony, but chaos is more diverse in styles. 
I like a historic downtown, with highrises.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

taboe said:


> Which type of city development do you prefer: urban chaos or harmony?
> By 'urban chaos' I mean a complete mixture of architectural styles, heights, colours, etc... An example would be some parts of London, I guess, where '60 behemoths stand next to neoclassical edifices .
> 'Harmony' would be the opposite: carefully planning areas, only construct buildings in a similar style, same height,... as the existing buildings in the surrounding area. An example is Paris, where the skyscrapers are banned from the historic center.


Don't be wrong there is also, mixture of architectural styles, height, color in Paris.


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## taboe (Jan 30, 2007)

^^ yes, off course, but there are no skycrapers in the old town... It might be a mix as well, but not as extreme as in London or Brussels


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Yes , what's the old town for you ? Because if you speak of inner Paris it is wrong (about skyscrapers).
The Paris know by tourists represent maybe 30 of the 86km² of the inner city.


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## taboe (Jan 30, 2007)

^^I have no idea where those pictures are taken... Anyway, man, my impression is that it's quite harmonious for such a big city... If it pleases you, I will give a more clear example: Prague


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## OMH (Aug 21, 2007)

a mix is the best,like in most european cities.but i think they should replace some of the old buildings,if they look ugly and built new ones!


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## goschio (Dec 2, 2002)

German cities are mostly very chaotic without any harmony. Lots of ugly buildings from the 50s and 60s next to old historic buildings.


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## LMCA1990 (Jun 18, 2005)

I like the first one very much.


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

I like chaos. Gives a city more flavor.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

I prefer chaos like Shanghai


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## OMH (Aug 21, 2007)

goschio said:


> German cities are mostly very chaotic without any harmony. Lots of ugly buildings from the 50s and 60s next to old historic buildings.


not necessarilly...i think most new buildings in german cities look quite good!


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## Westsidelife (Nov 26, 2005)

It depends on the city.


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## bay_area (Dec 31, 2002)

definitely depends on the city.


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## TR-909+ (Jul 20, 2004)

I love Tokyo's chaos


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## Chicagoago (Dec 2, 2005)

I think Chicago is a good mix city. There is a huge district downtown with almost all highrises among some shorter buildings from the 1800's and early 1900's. The lakefront is lined with highrises, and midrises behind/among those, and then 3-4 flats for a few miles out from the lake. The western edges of the city are more single family homes, bungalows, and 3 flats.

It's obviously not harmonious, but in large part, the city is a gentle slide from tall at the lake, and shorter away from the lake. There are barely ANY highrises at all more than a half mile from the lake and the loop. It's quite different from many southern cities with highrise districts and office towers in other clusters.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Is this harmony in heights and styles?

Whatever it is I like it.


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## taboe (Jan 30, 2007)

^^well, in the first pic it's hard to tell, because it's an aerial view. 
The second one is a nice example of mixed styles, I like the fact that they chose a radical modern building insteed of a fake old building. It's not completely chaotic, because there's clearly a height prescription in that area or street. That would be the second option of my poll, I would say. 
Vienna overall is quite harmonious, imo, certainly the center.

@*TR-909* and *chicagoago*:

thanx for the pics (altough 5 or so would have been enough). Tokyo seems like a great example of complete chaos, I like the way it looks, so seemingly unorganised. This must have something to do with the earthquakes in the past, I suppose. I never thought of Chicago as particularly choatic, and chicagoago's comment kinda confirms this: the highrise area is sorta separated from the lowrise living areas. However, huge highrise clusters like Chicago's always have this cool chaotic urban look.

In Brussels contrasts are very clear as well. Belgium's tallest, for example, is not exactly surrounded by similar buildings (pic by *snot*):


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

taboe said:


> Which type of city development do you prefer: urban chaos or harmony?
> By 'urban chaos' I mean a complete mixture of architectural styles, heights, colours, etc... An example would be some parts of London, I guess, where '60 behemoths stand next to neoclassical edifices .
> 'Harmony' would be the opposite: carefully planning areas, only construct buildings in a similar style, same height,... as the existing buildings in the surrounding area. An example is Paris, where the skyscrapers are banned from the historic center.
> 
> ...


 I don't like this picture, and I rise my eyebrows when some people see this kind of place and say it mixes the old and the new and they say they like it. A city can and should mix the old and the new, the high-rise and the low rise, but in DIFFERENT parts of the city, giving a different vibe to each neighbourhood.


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## urbanfan89 (May 30, 2007)

Wouldn't an extreme version of harmony be like the sterility of Dubai? Those kind of cities scare the hell out of me.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

taboe said:


> ^^well, in the first pic it's hard to tell, because it's an aerial view.


The facades facing the church are all historic.



> The second one is a nice example of mixed styles, I like the fact that they chose a radical modern building insteed of a fake old building. It's not completely chaotic, because there's clearly a height prescription in that area or street. That would be the second option of my poll, I would say.
> Vienna overall is quite harmonious, imo, certainly the center.


I actually like the Haas House (thats the name of the modern one) as well. Its actually how every modern building in such a high profile area should be.

First of all high quality, one that does not end one level before the pedestrian level but goes right down to the bottom. 
And then, the architect should not confuse ignorance and interchangeability with "style" or "great artistic skills". The building has to be set into its context, and as such become also part of that context. 

The Haas House has all of that. Its good quality, makes a very good impression from the street level but its strongest side is to form the public space in a superior way by connecting the two central places of Vienna in order to transform them into one. (Thats done by its round shape on the important side.) Not to forget that the glassy bay like part of the building reflects all the historic buildings on that corner together with the central cathedral of Vienna. 

Perhaps its more "harmonious" than some old buildings are in regards to their surrounding. If only all modern buildings would be of such quality as the Haas House.


Btw, I found another nice photo.
Everything old there, but not quite with harmonic heights...


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

urbanfan89 said:


> Wouldn't an extreme version of harmony be like the sterility of Dubai? Those kind of cities scare the hell out of me.


Depends, if some people confuse "harmony" with "monotony". 
I am convinced that while one may call Vienna harmonic, it hardly can be called monotone.

A street like the one below is probably a a good example for that:


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## taboe (Jan 30, 2007)

Slartibartfas said:


> A street like the one below is probably a a good example for that:


yes, it is indeed. It's definetely very harmonic, but clearly not boring. For me personally, it all looks a bit too 'clean'... Maybe that's because I grew up in Belgium  I'm used to a total lack of planning and a complete chaos of styles and building types. I've somehow grown accostumed to it, I guess. 

Anyway, thanks for the responses so far. I'd like some more opinions, perhaps using mine and others pictures as an example to comment on.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

taboe said:


> yes, it is indeed. It's definetely very harmonic, but clearly not boring. For me personally, it all looks a bit too 'clean'... Maybe that's because I grew up in Belgium  I'm used to a total lack of planning and a complete chaos of styles and building types. I've somehow grown accostumed to it, I guess.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the responses so far. I'd like some more opinions, perhaps using mine and others pictures as an example to comment on.


Dont be worried, thats a nice corner I showed you. We definitely have different corners as well. Not all houses are in such great shape like those above 









Voila. With a little bit more dirt  Even though the streets are normally everywhere pretty clean, Vienna also has its rather grey corners of course. 
If thats still not enough I can get to the ugly stuff as well  But I think you get the drift without me spammiig your thread with more unrelated stuff.


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

Although it is true that residents do oppose this b/c of the height difference, it's more on the fear of being priced out as a result of the property tax and rents increasing.


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## Skybean (Jun 16, 2004)

*Shanghai
*
Anton aka Bob Loblaw aka XiaoBai


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

Tel Aviv has some urban chaos in it.


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## Abbaner Oz (Jul 28, 2006)

Duplicated! Sorry-


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## Abbaner Oz (Jul 28, 2006)

One of latin americas, in Santiago de Chile, what happens when you dont have any protectional patrimonial law, then you have this example:










And when you have a lot of patrimonial decree:









You cant touch this "historical building only becouse was the first "mall" in mexico city...stopping the 600 millions dlls, investment to see rise, this:










a 70th Stories building, being the talles building in Mexico city...and designed by a guy...mmm i dont remember the name of this guy...something like, Cool House? i dont know...a yeah! Rem Koolhaas.


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## ZZ-II (May 10, 2006)

i like the "chaos". but for example not in frankfurt


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

goschio said:


> German cities are mostly very chaotic without any harmony. Lots of ugly buildings from the 50s and 60s next to old historic buildings.


For some reason I think the 60's "Modern" style is the worst style ever for buildings, furniture, etc.


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## streetscapeer (Apr 30, 2004)

I think Tokyo is a chaotic city but I consider it aesthetically harmonious.


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## hauntedheadnc (Aug 18, 2003)

I live in a very small city (about 72,000 citizens), but I love the chaos that exists here. Basically, while we don't have the urban chaos of a metropolis, nor do we have lots of tall buildings -- we only have a handful of midrises -- we do have the chaos that results from the buildings seeming to have been expressly designed not to match. It's rare to find any two buildings downtown that look like they belong anywhere near each other. The range of architectural styles is amazing. 

There's also a patina of age and grit, and because so many of the buildings are historic, there have been many years of renovations to contribute a utilitarian edge to the pretty architecture. I like that kind of juxtaposition also. I love seeing air ducts snaking up the side of an otherwise pretty building, and I like to see rusty old air conditioners dripping condensation onto the heads of statues below. I like to see cables and wires stapled into the bricks so that they frame a beautiful stained glass window.

That's the kind of chaos I love most.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

^^ Hm, it seems preferences can differ quite severely...

One thing I find the most annoying in American cities is if you go down a street and hear some a/c blowing like in a wind turbine and being as load as an aircraft on the runway.


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## taboe (Jan 30, 2007)

hauntedheadnc said:


> I live in a very small city (about 72,000 citizens), but I love the chaos that exists here. Basically, while we don't have the urban chaos of a metropolis, nor do we have lots of tall buildings -- we only have a handful of midrises -- we do have the chaos that results from the buildings seeming to have been expressly designed not to match. It's rare to find any two buildings downtown that look like they belong anywhere near each other. The range of architectural styles is amazing.
> 
> There's also a patina of age and grit, and because so many of the buildings are historic, there have been many years of renovations to contribute a utilitarian edge to the pretty architecture. I like that kind of juxtaposition also. I love seeing air ducts snaking up the side of an otherwise pretty building, and I like to see rusty old air conditioners dripping condensation onto the heads of statues below. I like to see cables and wires stapled into the bricks so that they frame a beautiful stained glass window.
> 
> That's the kind of chaos I love most.


do you have some pics? Sounds great, I don't like it in every case, but some degree of decay and a mix of technological/industrial with historic can be very charming


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## hauntedheadnc (Aug 18, 2003)

taboe said:


> do you have some pics? Sounds great, I don't like it in every case, but some degree of decay and a mix of technological/industrial with historic can be very charming


I don't really have any truly good pictures that show it off, but these may give you an idea of what I mean when applied to my city.

Here's city hall and the county courthouse. The original plan called for two ornate, over-the-top art deco structures, but after city hall was unveiled, the county thought its design was too daring and fired the architect. In his stead, the county chose a stern, neoclassical design.










Behind lovely buildings are dingy alleyways.














































The rusting air conditioner I mentioned.










Air ducts running up the side of a lovely building. When this building, originally a hotel, but apartments now, was built in 1927, nobody expected or demanded air conditioning. We're wimpier now, and so when it was added, they had to just stick it onto the side of the building, as there was no hope of making it actually fit in.










More juxtaposed architecture.




























Perhaps my favorite picture of downtown. A statue of Christ is looking toward a busy four-lane interstate, while behind Him stands the 1909 Spanish baroque Basilica of St. Lawrence, across the street from the brutalist 1970's Asheville Civic Center, with the Hotel George Vanderbilt (also now apartments) in the background. The Hotel George Vanderbilt started out as a gorgeous neoclassical building, but had all of its ornamentation stripped from it, then had a little, and not nearly enough, put back on a few years ago in a bid to make the thing not quite so goddamned ugly. Directly across the street from the front doors of the church, by the way, is a cracked, weedy parking lot. Notice the wires drooping overhead. I like the intrusion of utilities into scenes like this.










Like I said, these pictures don't really convey my meaning, but hopefully they'll be able to give you an idea. When you add all this together with the better examples, plus the crime and homelessness downtown, you end up with a surprisingly hard little city.


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

I know that most of you are used to seeing cities that have ubran chaos with postwar skyscrapers, but NYC is known for having urban chaos with prewar skyscrapers.


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

It very much depends on the city, but the overall "rule" is that I prefere *harmony*


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

^^ Me too, but in case of NYC it just is awfully impressive. I think NYC truly is something very special and I have to say I loved the Canyons for example.


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## Roberto-i (Jan 13, 2007)

I like a moderate chaos because it can be harmonious too , too similar buildings , both modern or olders , can be very boring , take for example the ugly Sao Paulo urban development , skyscrapers of bad quality on and on...


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

Slartibartfas said:


> ^^ Me too, but in case of NYC it just is awfully impressive. I think NYC truly is something very special and I have to say I loved the Canyons for example.


The reason I posted those pics was to state how much urban chaos in NYC predates all of the urban chaos we see now, plus some of these shots are from the outer boroughs, though Staten Island is excluded b/c it doesn't have any prewar skyscrapers.


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

^^ Architectural heterogeneity did not wait for skyscrapers and New York to appear TalB


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## Don Omar (Aug 10, 2006)

>


this is chaos in equilibrium.


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

At least by Grand Army Plaza, Richard Meir built something that is not out of scale with its surroundings.


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## Unionstation13 (Aug 31, 2006)

^^ that seems to blend in well with the historic building next door of it.


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

American cities, like Chicago, are even excessivelly organized :lol:, and they are fairly young cities, so there's no real mixture. It is the reverse problem.



goschio said:


> German cities are mostly very chaotic without any harmony. Lots of ugly buildings from the 50s and 60s next to old historic buildings.


like in here, but most of the ugly shit is from the 70s and 80s.



Slartibartfas said:


> Is this harmony in heights and styles?
> 
> Whatever it is I like it.


interesting I find both buildings beautiful, but I really don't like them together!

I like the fact that each part of the city having its own characteristic and setting, not all mixed together.

My town is chaotic in styles, although it is a city that has quite distinct districts.


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

In Staten Island, this is what comes close to urban chaos.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

you should check out Slough.

Brace yerself:










i kid ye not, Sloughs most iconic building









and our High Street


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

PeterGabriel said:


> interesting I find both buildings beautiful, but I really don't like them together!
> 
> I like the fact that each part of the city having its own characteristic and setting, not all mixed together.
> 
> My town is chaotic in styles, although it is a city that has quite distinct districts.


Well, I am a person who quite likes to have some harmony in the city scape. But that harmony doesn't have to be monotone. 

The picture you referred to, is from the Saint Stephens square in Vienna, which is THE very center of the city. As such I must say I prefer to have one of those post modern classy buildings instead of the few blunt post war blocks. That were raised where the bombs went down directly next to the cathedral. 

All in all I think it integrates itself pretty well into the city scape, even though the best impression can be get from pedestrian level this should give you an idea of it.


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## Gatis (Sep 22, 2003)

Anything can be mixed. Except buildings which have been created during the time when architecture was dead - in 1950ies-early 1970ies.


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## cernoch (Aug 7, 2007)

The most notable architectural style chaos will be in Prague after completing the New Czech National Library.
(Saint Vitus cathedral on the left)


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

This is what urban chaos is like back in Haifa.


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## FIDEL CASTRO (Nov 20, 2007)

IMO, the most chaotic cities are located in Asia eg: Shanghai, Calcutta, Tokyo, etc...


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## indipuk (Jul 14, 2007)

I hate chaos. That first picture is TERRIBLE!


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