# [E] Spain | road infrastructure • autopistas y autovías



## geno

*VICENTE CALDERON*

I have a BIG question . I like this project but i DON"t LIKE the ideea of demolishing vicente calderon . SO I wanna ask someone who really knows when they gonna demolish the stadium>??????????????????????I love atletico and calderon but i didn't have the time to visit it and I dont want to miss it . I heard that atletico will play in stadium olimpic (peineta) is that stadium already built????????????? Do you think is tha last seson for atletico in calderon????????????


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## valhar2000

The deal for the sale fo the Calderon is not yet made; in fact, that particular part of the project is paralized right now, and the cars that use the M30 will use the current track to drive through that part of the highway.

The team is expected to play its games in the Peineta until their new stadium (which will be built further away from the center of Madrid, in a less expensive piece of land) is complete. The difference between what they get from the sale and what they spend on the new stadium will be used to pay the team's debt.

Since the price of the land the stadium stands on is so high, the Local Government will sell about half of the acquired land to developers, in order to offset the cost of the land while still leaving enough space to dig the tunnels and build a park.

So, it seems, there is no way to save your beloved stadium. Look not, however, to the past, and cast instead your gaze toward the bright future that awaits the Team in its new home!


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## oduguy1999

WOW, these projects blow me away. I love Madrid, its so dynamic and exciting. Definitely a Project befitting a top 8 global economy.


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## newyorkrunaway1

this is an extraordinary project!!! I would love if the US would build projects like this.

!!!


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## AdemA

*Bilbao supersur Autopista*

Thats the new Highway:

Big photo by BPT:










Satelite drawings:





































*Some more renders...

Desde Galdakao direccion Muskiz*









































































Sobrevolando la Supersur, desde Muskiz hasta Galdakao:

Ampliacion del puente de La Arena, A8:




























Enlace Puerto Bilbao










Enlace Santurtzi-Eje del Ballonti










Enlace Portugalete










Desdoblamiento A8-Supersur (Fase1) y union con Fase 3



















Pasando por El Regato










Conexion con Corredor del Cadagua



















Peñascal, entrada al centro de Bilbao por La Peña




























Ampliacion de la A8 y conexion con A68










Arrigorriaga










Hacia Galdakao y Erletxe conexion con A8 y Corredor del Txorierri





































Y desde aqui, hacia durango








[/B]


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## Nephasto

Those aerial views are very beautifull but much more dificult to understund than a simple map.

I still don't have it clear the conexions between the supersur and other freeways like the AP-68 or A8.

For example, will it be possible to enter the supersur in the direction of Galdakao for those who come from the AP-68(from the south)?


Anyway, it looks like a great project! kay:


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## BPT

Nephasto said:


> . . .
> I still don't have it clear the conexions between the supersur and other freeways like the AP-68 or A8.
> 
> For example, will it be possible to enter the supersur in the direction of Galdakao for those who come from the AP-68(from the south)?
> . . .


It won't be possible. You must use the AP1 highway betwen Vitoria and Eibar to go to France 

Next week I'll have the proyect in my hands and will post some images and plains in the Eusko. See you there.


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## Nephasto

BPT said:


> It won't be possible. You must use the AP1 highway betwen Vitoria and Eibar to go to France


They really don't want to make a decent conexion between the AP-68 and the A-8 in that direction. Hehe! 
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the opening of the AP-1, as it will certanly be the best route to leave our peninsula. 





BPT said:


> Next week I'll have the proyect in my hands and will post some images and plains in the Eusko. See you there.


kay:


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## Nicolás

*[E] Canary Islands (Spain), GC-1 Motorway*

GC-1, the longest motorway on the Island of Gran Canaria, a Spanish island ~200 kms west of the southern part of Morocco-

From south to north ~65 kms, taken by me this January:


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## ChrisZwolle

Very nice pics. I saw them already at the other forums 

Las Palmas is quite big, i thought it had some 700.000 in agglomeration or so.


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## Gilgamesh

Nice. looks like it has almost constant curves, whats the speed limit?


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## Nicolás

Gilgamesh said:


> Nice. looks like it has almost constant curves, whats the speed limit?


max. 120 kph, sometimes 80-100


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## Nephasto

Great photo's! kay:

It seems that Gran Canária has an excelent network of freeway, considering it's a small island.


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## Verso

Cool! I like motorways on small islands. Las Palmas, here I come!


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## valhar2000

Well, there is the Boston Big Dig, which is similar but even larger. They did take 20 years to do it, though, which sucks.


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## SkyLerm

^^I've seen that in a discoverys' documentary, that was really impressive and huge work, i love that kind of construction sites


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## valhar2000

Well, yes, but ours is cooler. For no particular reason; it just is. :runaway:


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## SkyLerm

Nice stuff!!


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## balasto

Entrance of one recently opened strech (cut and cover):


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## SkyLerm

Great picture, actually there are 3 tunnel stretches opened since last wednesday.


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## Cicerón

Pictures of Autovías and Autopistas under construction and information about planned Autovías/Autopistas.

A-67 Montálbiz viaduct (150m high) by Olarreaga

A-67 Molledo-Pesquera by Alsajano 

A-67 Pesquera-Reinosa by Alsajano

A-67 Reinosa-Aguilar by Alsajano

A-67 viaducts by Carabazatowers

A-67 by Carabazatowers

M-30 Evolution of the works (03/05 to present) by Carretero.

VSM Bilbao by Adema


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## FM 2258

^^ 

Very beautiful.


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## ChrisZwolle

Great report!


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## msz2

Cicerón said:


> Pictures of Autovías and Autopistas under construction and information about planned Autovías/Autopistas.
> 
> A-67 Montálbiz viaduct (150m high) by Olarreaga
> 
> A-67 Molledo-Pesquera by Alsajano
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> A-67 Pesquera-Reinosa by Alsajano
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> A-67 Reinosa-Aguilar by Alsajano
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> A-67 viaducts by Carabazatowers
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> A-67 by Carabazatowers
> 
> M-30 Evolution of the works (03/05 to present) by Carretero.
> 
> VSM Bilbao by Adema


Very nice progress in road construction. I hope Poland in 20 years will also have such good motorways. We have alredy started (with EU help) to modernise existinng road and railway net as well as to build new motorways and expressways.


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## Verso

Classy highways with smooth pavement! :cheers:


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## juanpe_r

you will have in Poland the same in some years time......! just wait!. I drove from Warsaw to Berlin.....and the road in Poland is horrible. But you´ve got some good motorways as the one in krakov


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## Bori427

Too many autovias,few vehicles


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## Victhor

^^I see everyday the highway in the first pic of this thread (A7- Costa del Sol - Malaga) and it uses to look like this (my own pic, taken the last wednesday at 8:40 am):


PD: 2 extra pics from google


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## Aokromes

FM 2258 said:


> Yeah, I wasn't able to find a good example and I see nothing wrong with posting a city on a sign. Ironically I thought the Spanish highway signs were easy to read until I saw the last one.
> 
> 
> If I read correctly, I see the first exit for Logrono which is European Highway 804 and Autopista 68. When it comes to the highways under it I'd like to know what those mean. On the second sign it looks like they're telling you all the information on that lane. If some could explain the second sign to me I'd be very grateful. *frozen/ posted that the white explains the type of roadway it is so I can kinda see where that's going.*


*

It's not exit, instead split, from 3 lanes to 2+2 lanes from central lane and right you can go to Madrid by E-90/A-2 road and Logroño by N-232 road and from Central and Left lane you can go to Logroño by that other roads, and yes, its a bit messy.

I think it's here:

*


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## Skylandman

Bori427 said:


> Too many autovias,few vehicles




Really?



Skylandman said:


> *Hilo de Fotografías sobre Autopistas, Circunvalaciones y Autovias españolas*
> 
> 
> Cualquier friky del asfalto sabrá lo chungo que está encontrar fotos de las autopistas de este país en la red, así que abro este hilo como punto de encuentro para que colguemos fotos de las autopistas, autovias, circunvalciones y entradas a las ciudades españolas. Yo por mi parte, he hecho un repaso rápido de mi disco duro y de varios hilos del foro para encontrar algunas fotos sobre el tema, es probable que varias de las fotos os suenen de haberlas visto antes, pero aun así si todos los frikis colaboramos puede quedar un hilo bastante apañado.
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> Se apreciarán especialmente las aportaciones de fotos en las que aparezcan fotos nocturnas, autopistas y skylines, atascos monumetales, puentes y cruces a varios niveles...en fin, cuanto más asfalto mejor!!!
> 
> PD. También serán especialmente bienvenidas fotografías de Barcelona, Valencia, Sevilla,Bilbao, Málaga, La Coruña, Murcia, Mallorca, Las Islas Canarias...y en general de cualquier ciudad española.
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> gracias de antemano a todos los foreros de los que haya tomado prestado algunas fotos
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> Primera serie: Atascos del copón: La calidad de algunas pésima debido al redimensionamiento:
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> Madrid salida de la Coruña
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> Madrid entrada de Burgos
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> Madrid entrada desde Extremadura
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> Madrid, Salida hacia Andalucía
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> atasco indeterminado
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> madrid
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> atasco indeterminado
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> salida Madrid hacía A Coruña
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> Madrid salida de Valencia
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> Vale, esto no es una via rápida, pero como atasco también cuela, por cierto, es Madrid:
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> más Madrid
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> cerca de Torremolinos
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> Madrid de nuevo
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> lugar indeterminado
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> Santiago de Compostela
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> pequeño atasco en madrid
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> creo que esta es cerca de Bilbao
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> cerca de Torrelodones
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> Valencia
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> Madrid
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> obras de entrada a Madrid
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> cerca de Moncloa
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> lugar indetermindado


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## Skylandman

a few more pics with no such a heavy traffic:



Skylandman said:


> más fotos varias:
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> M30
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> nudo madrileño y skyline naciente
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> entrada a madrid, creo que desde Barcelona
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> Nudo con la A1 en Madrid
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> A1
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> entrada a Murcia
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> M30
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> A1 hacia Madrid
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> Periferia de BCN
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> Entrada A Madrid cerca de la Av de América
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> Bilbao
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> M40?
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> M30
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> Cerca de La Laguna, Canarias
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> M30 noche
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> más m30
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> Bilbao, aunque no estoy seguro de si es una autovia/autopista
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> periferia de Madrid
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> puente del V centenario, Sevilla
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> entrada a Madrid
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> Madrid más obras
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> entrada a Ourense
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> preparados para la operación Salida
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> Más obras de ampliación de una autopista cerca de Barajas
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> autovia sobre puente que no recuerdo donde está
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> autovia en obras en lugar indeterminado
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> BCN. nocturna en el tambor de la Agbar
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## Skylandman

and the 3th round:



Skylandman said:


> muy buenas fotos, gracias a todos por vuestras aportaciones!
> 
> algunas más:
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> Tarragona
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> A62 a su paso por simancas
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> Autopista del PV a Cantabria
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> indetermindado
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> M30
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> indetermnido
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> autovia Huelva - Punta Umbría
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> Málaga
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> M40
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> A5 en Extremadura
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> A5 a unos 40 kms de Madrid
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> Indetermindas
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> A6
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> A4
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> molaría tener una foto de calidad desde aqui, a ser posible anocheciendo :drool:
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> Bilbao
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> creo que madrid
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> indetermindo
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> Mieres
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> indeterminado
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> BCN
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> madrid
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> Bilbao
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> Zarauz
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> Madrid
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> A6
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> A6 cortada
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> Galicia
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> M30
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> Bilbao
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> indeterminado
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> m30


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## Skylandman

Nus de la Trinitat: Pic provided bu Aquarius











A1 by nacho82


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## Verso

The tunnel in the first pic in the 26th post is awesome!! :drool:


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## Bori427

Spanish autovias are really good,I like how european motorways/autobahns/autovias are well maintained.

I still think its not so congested for a 6 million city...


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## Verso

^^ Thank god it's not so congested!


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## Aokromes

Bori427 said:


> Spanish autovias are really good,I like how european motorways/autobahns/autovias are well maintained.
> 
> I still think its not so congested for a 6 million city...


Most of photos aren't from Madrid, for example:










Is the outsides of a small city of 225000 persons.


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## picassoborseli

Nice...

Anyone pics of the M-50/R-2/R-3/R-4/R-5 freeway of Madrid? 
Like it so much!


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## Stifler

I want to share with you a map I did about the Spanish highway network. I wasn't looking for perfection so it could have some mistakes but I hope at least it can give you a general impression.










Future (plan for 2020)


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## traveler99

very nice highways!
:cheers:


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## ChrisZwolle

Amazing pics! especially around Madrid, Cantabria and Granada/Malaga!


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## valhar2000

Chris1491 said:


> But why the hell is that guy sticking to the middle lane?


So that the people who are entering the highway and the slowpokes won't bother him; it's pretty much the standard way to drive around here, though they do teach us to stick to the right in driving school...


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## juanpe_r

I drove yesterday along the tunnel from A3 to A5...about.....18km??? It´s incredible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ChrisZwolle

That's more like 12 kilometer. But still impressive though.


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## Skylandman

More from flirck


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## ChrisZwolle

What road is that? A2 or A3?


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## Skylandman

not sure, but i think it´s the A4 the old "Carretera de Andalucía"


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## willo

i think it's A4 too. there's a Decathlon in its exit #17 as it says in the ad of the picture


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## el palmesano




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## madao

fantastic highway's you have i notice that when we are going to morocco
i hope the highway in morocco soon will be like spain!


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## Skylandman

Some more pics;

Sevilla SE-30 viaduct in Cartuja island (Alamillo Bridge at the end)










Sevilla










SE-30 through the Alamillo bridge










another points of view of this wonder:




























SE30 passing through the V centenario bridge



















Close to Granada









Ayamonte Bridge (Huelva) close to the portuguese border









Tenerife (canary islands)









A23









Madrid









Alicante









Tarragona









Barcelona



























A8 Bilbao









parking under the highway (Bilbao)









AP9 Vigo


















Benalmádena


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## Dreamliner

Excellent highways! Excelentes autopistas!


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## radi6404

Billpa, awesome motorways, realy really modern.


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## Cicerón

New highway in Asturias:




dey said:


> ¡Imposible! ¿A qué velocidad ibas? :nuts:
> Ya os contaré por la tarde a ver cuánto tardo yo....
> 
> Unas fotos:


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## ChrisZwolle

From where to where is that?


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## Stifler

Chris1491 said:


> From where to where is that?


It was the old 'Nacional' between Oviedo and Gijon, which has been upgraded into a highway due to the collapsed situation of the A-66.

Central Asturias is a metropolitan area in the North of Spain with 800,000 inhabitants distributed in different towns (2 of them +200,000 and 4 +50,000).

Here's our current highway network. Only blue line is not built yet. Pics are from green line (AS-2).









Map made by forumer dey.


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## Nephasto

I didn't know about that AS-2... it doesn't appear on viamichelin... it's an error I guess.

The asturian government is building many freeways these days!! That Oviedo-Gijon area is going to have a really dense freeway network!


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## Nephasto

Skylandman said:


> Ayamonte Bridge (Huelva) close to the portuguese border



This is actually an international bridge. But actually it's doesn't quallify as a freeway (auto-estrada or autopista), because of the lack of shoulders and the lanes are too narrow.
Don't ask me why they didn't built it to full freeway standards... :nuts: Probably because when it was built, there were no freeways on both sides of the border... still, it was a stupid lack of vision...


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## Stifler

Nephasto said:


> I didn't know about that AS-2... it doesn't appear on viamichelin... it's an error I guess.
> 
> The asturian government is building many freeways these days!! That Oviedo-Gijon area is going to have a really dense freeway network!


Well, it appears with the old name (AS-18) as it was opened a few days ago. Its new name as a freeway is AS-2 or 'Industrial Freeway', as it connects the main industrial areas of the region.

And it's true. Now there's a lot of infraestructure being built here. Some examples:

Bridge over Nalon river (A-8) in Soto del Barco. 1000 meters length.









Bridge being upgraded to freeway in A-8 near Otur.









Connection between A-8, AS-1 and the access to Gijon.


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## Nephasto

kay:


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## Skylandman

Nephasto said:


> This is actually an international bridge. But actually it's doesn't quallify as a freeway (auto-estrada or autopista), because of the lack of shoulders and the lanes are too narrow.
> Don't ask me why they didn't built it to full freeway standards... :nuts: Probably because when it was built, there were no freeways on both sides of the border... still, it was a stupid lack of vision...



Thanks for the info, clear and precise as always.:cheers:


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## Skylandman

A few more pics

Marbella









A48









?









M30









Tunnel 3 May ", Canary Island









M40









M40









M500









M30









works at the A2









?









AS1 Asturias









autovia Castelldefels


















Almeria?









?



























Baracaldo









Asturias


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## Skylandman

Some more pics

Ronda de Dalt, BCN









BCN




































C32 Mataró










Madrid









A66









A52 Ourense









U/C









Pontevedra









From Málaga to Granada









A2 crossing Soria









Autovia de los viñedos









Autovía del cantábrico


















Gijón, asturias









A2









Close to Poferrada, León









don´t know where









Close to Benavente









Logroño maybe









Galicia



















Córdoba


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## Verso

Skylandman said:


>


Unbelievable!


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## Skylandman

More from Madrid









































































AP41









A8 Bilbao









M30


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## PotatoGuy

Very nice roads, they´re all clean and shiny


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## grijix

It is a colossal engineering work with a cost circa € 25,000 per metre, a succession of tunnels and bridges that will blow the driver away, a wonderful 36 Km .... a last minute solution for a long foreseen problem I'm afraid .....


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## juanico

indeed really impressive!


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## ChrisZwolle

Is this new Autopista replacing the current A8?


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## Bori427

This project looks amazing,when does construction start/end?


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## josema_call

^^ Skylandman:










This the AP6, the entrance of the Guadarramas tunnels, I think in the Madrid's side. The jam is due to the toll that's is set in the other side of the tunnel.


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## Nephasto

Chris1491 said:


> Is this new Autopista replacing the current A8?


It is made to relieve the A8 from the heavy traffic it handles, but I wouldn't call it a replacement.
A8 will continue to serve as an autopista.


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## AdemA

Works have just started!


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## arriaca

Evolución de las obras del enlace de la M30 y la A2


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## Astralis

Wow... This is a decent highway network kay:! Way to go Spain! :cheers:


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## Cicerón

As you probably know, the first-generation Autovías (built during the 80's) are going to be improved in order to reach the parameters of a modern highway. If you are interested in this, you can get some information here (in Spanish).

Now, these pics were taken in the A-1 highway between the Basque Country and Castile. (By Aokromes)

This is the old A-1 highway to Burgos.




















La Puebla de Arganzón village, in Condado de Treviño.




















The new A-1 (under construction):











To Vitoria-Gasteiz.


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## fetg_

Spain have some of the best highways on earth. Great pictures!


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## Fern~Fern*

What's the speed limit on the Highways?


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## Alex Von Königsberg

120 km/h on motorways, 100 km/h on expressways and 90 km/h on extra-urban local highways.


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## Fern~Fern*

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> 120 km/h on motorways, 100 km/h on expressways and 90 km/h on extra-urban local highways.



^ Gracias for the info!


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## Cicerón

AP-68 highway near Logroño (the city where I live).





























It's one of the oldest highways in Spain.


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## ChrisZwolle

Hmm it's greener there than as i expected. I expected more a semi desert.


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## picassoborseli

I like this pic: (Can anybody tell me where this is?)











I like these kind of signs in Spain just so organized and clear:


















But then you have also these kind of signs, which are realy not clear and well organized:


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## ChrisZwolle

Speaking about unorganized signs;



















hno: :nuts:


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## Stifler

picassoborseli said:


> I like this pic: (Can anybody tell me where this is?)


The bus is an Alsa Supra so it's in the North (most likely Asturias or Basque Country). I bet for the begining of AP-66 in Asturias near Campomanes.


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## Cicerón

A-66 highway near Zamora:



Obidos said:


> Empecé el tramo de Norte a Sur, o sea, desde el enlace de la N-630 hacia el enlace con la A-11 (Zamora-Tordesillas-Valladolid-Madrid). Y como es primavera los bichos estrellados contra el parabrisas fueron protagonistas...
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> Enlace con la Carretera CL-612 Zamora-Villalpando
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> Enlace con la A-11
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> Tomé la salida hacia la N-122 dirección Tordessillas-Valladolid y pasé por debajo de la nueva A-66
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> Desde la N-122 volví a entrar en la A-66, esta vez en dirección Sur-Norte. Esta es la incorporación desde la N-122
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> Y justo aquí salí por la A-11 en dirección Zamora, un par de kms...
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> Y eso es todo!!


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## Verso

^^ W00t! Now I'll be the bad boy (in a good way) instead of radi6404, and say - fucking awesome shiny crash barriers!


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## Æsahættr

Spain's autopistas look so YUMMY.
Especially the new ones in and around Madrid


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## Rebasepoiss

Verso said:


> ^^ W00t! Now I'll be the bad boy (in a good way) instead of radi6404, and say - fucking awesome shiny crash barriers!


They probably spend huge amounts of money to cover their crashbarriers with chrome.


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## picassoborseli

Some pics I saved from the spanish forum... I know that this is in South Spain. Andalucia

Enjoy them!


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## ChrisZwolle

Ist that the new AP7 between Cartagena and Vera?


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## Skylandman

Actually, those pics are from the A381, between Jerez and Los barrios.


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## Cicerón

More pics.

M-50 by Theremin:

http://www.urbanity.es/foro/showthread.php?p=35980#post35980



Theremin said:


> *Autopista M50. Circunvalación a Madrid en arco A1-A6*
> 
> Puente sobre el Parque de Polvoranca, TM de Fuenlabrada.
> 
> Vistas al enlace con la autovía M407 Leganés - Fuenlabrada. Dirección hacia la A4.
> 
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> Vistas hacia Móstoles-Alcorcón dirección A5. Un poco artística, je, je...
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> 
> Las mismas contradirecciones pero en formato panorámica:
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> A destacar nuevamente la amplitud de las vías de servicio, el trazado con amplias clotoides, el firme en perfecto estado... ¿Os fiajis que hay más coches? (será que es grátis) ¿Dos carriles por sentido en el tronco central nada más y va la cosa fluída? (Será que es Domingo).


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## Cicerón

R-5 by Theremin:

http://www.urbanity.es/foro/showthread.php?p=35977#post35977



Theremin said:


> Pos venga, desde el sector "madriles", hago mi humilde aportación al tema.
> 
> *Autopista R5 (radial). De Madrid -M40 a A5 (Navalcarnero).*
> 
> Imágenes tomadas desde Leganés-Alcorcón, junto al Puente del Parque de Polvoranda.
> 
> Sentido hacia Madrid Capital (entrada):
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> La primavera del año pasado no se veía cási, pero ahora desde ese punto se ve el CTBA en todo su explendor...
> 
> Este es el sentido Salida de Madrid:
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> No hablo de su espectacular trazado, las puntas que infarto que se pueden alcanzar, la ausencia de radares y la utilización de RISA que tiene esta autopista invento del otrora equipo ministerial de Álvarez Casos. Ahora parece que tiene algún que otro coche más...


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## Cicerón

A-8 in Cantabria by Olarreaga.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=14043498#post14043498



olarreaga said:


> ^^ que jefe! (gracias por al excursión )
> 
> Siempre se me olvida preguntarte por los tecnicismos y otras dudas, como lo de la junta de diltación. xD
> 
> Voy a hacer un inciso entre tanta A-67 con...
> 
> Gracias por el reportaje, ya era hora de ver el atirantado.
> 
> 
> Unas de la A-8 entre San Vicente y Torrelavega
> 
> No es Oregon, en serio.
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> Monumento estrambótico
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> Alguno se llevó un buen susto por el flash


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## Cicerón

AS-II in Asturias by Adcava.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=14059397#post14059397



adcava said:


> :master: :master: Muy buenos reportajes, estoy aprendiendo mucho de ellos. No se os escapa ni un sólo detalle.
> 
> Algunas fotos de la AS-II, para poner alguna de las carreteras de Asturias, que escasean en este Tema


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## Cicerón

Some pics of Autovías U/C.

A-50 in Salamanca province.

A-67 in Cantabria.

AG-11 in Galicia.


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## FJP

*A 67* :drool:


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## SkyLerm

Montabliz viaduct in A67 rocks


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## picassoborseli

A-6 Madrid-A Coruña 

from Madrid Moncloa till Collado Villalba (aprox. 40 km)
pics are from: http://www.dgt.es

*Madrid and Aravaca:*

















































































*El plantillo till Las Rozas:*













































*Las Rozas till Las Matas:*




































*Los Peñascales till Parquelagos:*



























*La Nevata till Collado Villalba:*


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## Cicerón

More pics:

A-12: http://www.cfnavarra.es/obraspublicas/fotografias/A-12.htm

A-21: http://www.cfnavarra.es/obraspublicas/fotografias/A-21.htm


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## sergiogabrielm

FJP said:


> *A 67* :drool:


:eek2: :applause: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:  :master: :master:


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## Maxx☢Power

Cicerón said:


> More pics:
> 
> A-12: http://www.cfnavarra.es/obraspublicas/fotografias/A-12.htm
> 
> A-21: http://www.cfnavarra.es/obraspublicas/fotografias/A-21.htm


Motorway porn! :cheers:


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## Cicerón

I love this pic.

AP-7 near Llinars del Vallès (Barcelona province) and High Speed Line Madrid-Barcelona-France.










http://flickr.com/photos/wscwong/533921389/in/photostream/


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## ChrisZwolle

holy smoke, that's massive!

I saw the AVE under construction along the AP-2 2 years ago. When will it be finished?


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## Cicerón

Chris1491 said:


> holy smoke, that's massive!
> 
> I saw the AVE under construction along the AP-2 2 years ago. When will it be finished?


To Barcelona before the Spanish elections in March 2008. To the French border, probably in 2012.


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## x-type

wow!!! i've been passing a year ago under that AVE bridge over AP7 while it was still under construction and i was really curious what strange object is it gonna be?!?


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## Skylandman

A6









Ponteareas, Pontevedra







´

A7 Marbella, Málaga










unknow place









Ap9 close to Vigo









Ronda Litoral, Barcelona









Vigo


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## Æsahættr

Why are some of the shoulders not solid lines? Does that mean you can use them as passing lanes?


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## ChrisZwolle

Where do you see that on the above pics?

But i know what you mean, you see it in France all the time. I think it's done so people know how much distance they should keep to the next car. 
(it didn't work for me, i once got an accident on the French A10 near Bordeaux :doh: )


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## lpioe

Skylandman said:


> A6


Where is this? Madrid?


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## x-type

lotrfan55345 said:


> Why are some of the shoulders not solid lines? Does that mean you can use them as passing lanes?


Spain is starting to use that "French" system. so instead of solid line you have dashed line with large pieces. French motorways are known about it. but i don't know why all Spanich motorways are not in that style. for instance, AP7 is not.


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## Cicerón

lotrfan55345 said:


> Why are some of the shoulders not solid lines?


Probably it depends on how safe is to stop on the shoulder. For example, in some motorways there are solid lines in tunnels/bridges.



lotrfan55345 said:


> Does that mean you can use them as passing lanes?


No, you can't pass on the right.



lpioe said:


> Where is this? Madrid?


Yes, that photo was taken from "Faro de La Moncloa", a tower near "Palacio de La Moncloa", where the Spanish president lives.


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## Cicerón

Ok, I've just found the rules about that stuff:

http://carreteros.org/normativa/marcas_v/8_2ic/apartados/3_1_7.htm



> # b) en el borde exterior de la calzada de una autopista o autovía se utilizara la marca M-1.11, Siempre que no se den los supuestos 3, 4, 5, 7 u 8 del apartado c) siguiente.
> # c) optativamente la línea longitudinal discontinua podrá utilizarse como alternativa de la línea continua, en vía cuyo arcén tenga una anchura menor de 1,5 metros, con las excepciones siguientes:
> 
> * 1. En el borde exterior de una curva -o serie de curvas- avisada por señal vertical.
> * 2. Cuando la calzada cambie de anchura bruscamente.
> * 3. Antes y después del borde discontinuo en una intersección o acceso, con objeto de precisar su situación.
> * 4. Al aproximarse a y a lo largo de un puente o de un túnel en que se estreche la calzada.
> * 5. Cuando sea especialmente peligroso salirse de la calzada aun a velocidad muy reducida.
> * 6. A lo largo de un tramo donde la niebla sea frecuente.
> * 7. En el borde exterior de un carril especial, de entrada o de salida.
> * 8. En todo tramo en que se juzgue necesario destacar la importancia del borde de la calzada, advirtiendo así al conductor de que debe prestar a la circulación o a la vía una atención superior a la normal.


It says that the solid lines must be used instead dashed lines after and before exits/entrances, in bridges/tunnels, etc...

But some motorways such as AP-7 have no dashed lines, I think it's because old motorways were painted with solid lines.


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## Alle

lotrfan55345 said:


> Why are some of the shoulders not solid lines? Does that mean you can use them as passing lanes?


In Sweden it means that you can use the verge to make overtakes easier (for the one passing you). You can also use it the last distance before making a right hand turn on country roads so as to not slow down traffic behind you. Furthermore slow vechicles like tractors use them if they are available, also to avoid slowing down traffic and/or forcing risky overtakes.

If the verge has a solid line it means that it is not suitable for these purposes, altough mopeds are still allowed to use the verge in those circumstances as well as when you tow a car on a highway/freeway.


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## Cicerón

I'm sure that most of you don't know why the Spanish roads have such a strange, confusing numbers. I'll try to explain why. 

According to the Plan General de Carreteras (1939), the peninsular Spain is divided into six parts. There are six main roads (_radiales_) which connect Madrid other cities.

This is the place where the six main roads begin. It's located in Puerta del Sol, Madrid.










The first number of the road depends on which of the six parts is the beginning of the road located in.

The second number depends on the distance to Madrid.

The third one depends on how the road is: _Transversal_ (even numbers) or _radial_ (odd numbers).










And that's all. It's quite easy.


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## Cicerón

About the Autopistas/Autovías: There are 9 main itineraries. The first 6 are the same as 6 main national roads. The other 3 go throught the coasts.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, but what about ALL those damn prefixes? There must be dozens of them! Every province has it's own prefix, and sometimes cities too. Quite confusing when an motorway-grade road can af an A, AP, B, C, EX, BU, M, V, GC, TF (and the list goes on) prefix.


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## Cicerón

Chris1491 said:


> Yeah, but what about ALL those damn prefixes? There must be dozens of them! Every province has it's own prefix, and sometimes cities too. Quite confusing when an motorway-grade road can af an A, AP, B, C, EX, BU, M, V, GC, TF (and the list goes on) prefix.


That's true. The prefixes mean who is the owner of the motorway. As you know, Spain is divided into autonomous regions. The central administration (State), autonomous regions, city councils... can be the owners of a motorway. For instance, M-30 is owned by Madrid city council; C-32, AS-1, CM-42 are owned by _Generalitat de Catalunya_ (Catalonia's autonomous government), _Principado de Asturias_ (Asturias' autonomous government) and _Junta de Comunidades de Castilla-La Mancha_ (Castilla-La Mancha's autonomous government) respectively; A-1 is owned by the State.

It's a mess :lol:

Edit: Generally, if the road number has one (X-X) or two digits (X-XX), it's a motorway.


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## Cicerón

Comparison between Madrid highways / Barcelona highways:









(By Hush).


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## picassoborseli

This is so dangerous! :uh:

The speed limit here is 120 km/h?


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## Nephasto

^^Probably... maybe they've lowered it because of this situation happening frequently.
The problem in here is not in the freeway in itself, but in the roads/intersections after the offramp. Clearlly not made to support such a heavy traffic.


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## Nephasto

Some pictures of the A-31 between Alicante and La Roda.
The A-31 is a first generation autovia (which means it's quallity isn't great), which will be improved in the next years:




















Old and obsolete signaling (blue letters in white backgroung):










A sharp curve:








































































Junction with autovia CV-80:


















Some fog in the background:



























In the middle of the fog:


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## Nephasto

The city of Villena:









Villena tunnel... It's a really lousy tunnel this one (the one in the direction of Madrid... in the direction of Alicante it's much better I think)... 2 lanes without a wide left shoulder, with a too steep inclination (going up) for a tunnel and with curves which are too sharp for a tunnel:




























No overtaking for trucks when it's snowing. Not the case in early September!


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## ChrisZwolle

Wow the scenery is amazing! For a first generation autovia, it still looks pretty good, perhaps because of the low traffic.


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## Nephasto

^^Well, the traffic is not that low... actually quite high, at least during the summer months. (not by dutch standards, I know! :colgate
But it's true that it's not in bad shape. The problems are mainly related to the geometry (some sharper curves needing to be corrected) or with some aceleration/deceleration lanes which are too short.


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## Nephasto

Some photos of AP-7 between exits 740 and the junction with A-7, near Elx/Elche (roughly between Almoradí and Crevillent):









I like the scennery (mountains in the background):


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## ChrisZwolle

Signage in rural areas of Spain is really good. But not in cities. Why are there so many narrow em lanes?


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## Nephasto

Short section of the A-7 that goes roughly around Elx, between the AP-7 (in the west):









I think this section has been enlarged to 2x3 very recently (some works where still unfinished:





































In here (last junction), the signage is a bit confusing, but not too bad. The exit on the right to Madrid and Albacete should be numbered as AP-7 and possible A-31, but I think the reason it isn't is a problem with the numbering of the short stretch of AP-7 (which will be the 2nd bypass to Alicante) which isn't considered to be AP-7 yet, but I guess this will be resolved when the whole bypass of AP-7 is opened latter this year or something like that:


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## LMCA1990

I love Spanish highways, but I fing Madrid's highway layout a bit confusing.


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## Nephasto

Chris1491 said:


> Signage in rural areas of Spain is really good. But not in cities. Why are there so many narrow em lanes?


Narrow em lanes? You mean emergency lanes?
Well, emergency lanes in Spain are always narrow (only 2.5m, regardless of being and autopista or autovia), and when there are guardrails on the side of the freeway it looks narrower.
When there aren't guardrails/concrete barriers you probably don't notice it.


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## arriaca

picassoborseli said:


> This is so dangerous! :uh:
> 
> The speed limit here is 120 km/h?


Yes, the speed limit is 120 km/h

This happens all days at many hours.


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## ChrisZwolle

> *Acesa to expand AP-7*
> 
> Acesa, which is the concessionaire of the Spanish motorway AP-7, is to issue a tender in respect of the construction of a third lane in the province of Tarragona. Work will take place along *a 123km stretch between Salou and La Jonquera*, where all existing access roads will henceforth be tolled.
> 
> At the northern end of the road, certain sections will be upgraded from three to four carriageways, while others will be engineered for three carriageways of traffic in each direction.
> 
> Work is expected to take up to two years to complete and cost around €500 million. Acesa will finance this work, despite the fact that it will not be able to recoup the investment either through higher tolls or through a concession extension, which ends in 2021. The idea is that rising traffic levels will justify the additional investment; should this prove not to be the case, then any shortfall will be made up by the state.


Good news, this road is really clogged up during summertime.


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## Nephasto

^^Yup.
Well, what they are actually enlarging is from Tarragona untill the conexion with the AP-2. From the conexion (AP-2/AP-7) it's already 2x3 (2x4 in some stretches) until Maçanet de la Selva(junction 9).
Then, they will also widden to 2x3 from Maçanet untill the border (La Jonquera).


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## Cicerón

Pictures by Carabazatowers.



Carabaza said:


> *Comunidad de Madrid*
> 
> 
> 
> A-1 sentido Madrid a la altura de Alcobendas
> 
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> 
> "ni papa" xD
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> M-40 sentido Madrid-A2
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> M-40 yendo sentido Oeste casi llegando al enlace con la A-1





Carabaza said:


> *Cantabria*
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> A-67, "Autovía de la Meseta"
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> Tramo Santander-Torrelavega sentido capital del Besaya.
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> No veais lo bien que sienta ir en el bus haciendo estas fotos después de un examen para el que estudiaste duro.... :banana: :banana:
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> El área urbana de Torrelavega se expande...
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> Saliendo de Torrelavega hacia Palencia...
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> Tramo Pesquera-Reinosa
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> A la altura de Reinosa...
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> Poco después de llegar a Castilla y León, se nos acaba la autovía...
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> Lástima que estas me hayan quedado tan mal...  la próxima vez intentaré centrarme más.
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> Bajando el Puerto de Pozazal (1.002 msnm)
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> Reinosa, capital de Campóo
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> "La Naval" (Sidenor) Empresa clave para la comarca...
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> Aquí ya se nos acaba la autovía...


From http://www.urbanity.es/foro/showthread.php?t=1750


Highways in the Canary Islands, by Dagafle.



DAGAFLE said:


> Bueno, aquí unas fotografías de un pequeño tramo del ramal de la autovía de circunvalación a Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, GC-23, al lado de mi casa, quizá el tramo más conflictivo de toda la circunvalación en horas punta, y en no horas puntas, al recibir el tráfico de las zona más densamente pobladas de la zona alta de la capital, junto a numerosos centros comerciales y confluir con la GC-3 (circunvalación) y la GC-2 (autovía del norte).
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> Boca sur del Falso Túnel de La Ballena de la GC-23
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> Aquí una foto de la GC-3, en uno de los tramos que más se colapsa.





DAGAFLE said:


> Unas fotos de la GC-3, con los puentes salvando el Barranco de Guiniguada y cerca del enlace con la GC-23. (no se observa bien la altura de los puentes)
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> Imagen parcial del nudo con la GC-23


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## Nephasto

Thoso motorways in canarias are trully impressive!! :applause:


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## x-type

how old is A67? in the map that i own there is a symbol for and usual road (not autovia/autopista), but anyway its name is A67, so i guess it's quite new, right?

some sceneries looks fantastic, especially pass over 1000 m/as and those "mexican" secenery!


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## DanielFigFoz

I love Spanish roads!


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## Reivajar

x-type said:


> how old is A67? in the map that i own there is a symbol for and usual road (not autovia/autopista), but anyway its name is A67, so i guess it's quite new, right?
> 
> some sceneries looks fantastic, especially pass over 1000 m/as and those "mexican" secenery!


I expect you're talking about the Meseta's pics, because Cantabria (province of Santander) is suposely the Green Spain...:hahaha: 

Yes, you're right, A-67 is a new expressway (or autovia, what you prefer) still under construction in some stretches, except Santander-Torrelavega stretch (first pics where you can see A-8 signs) which is quite older.

More information on Wikipedia (in Spanish): http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autovía_de_la_Meseta


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## x-type

yes, of course, i meant Castilla y León region, not Cantabria


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## arriaca

And not all of the plateau is flat


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## Guest

DFM said:


> Cantabria is beautiful I love it!


Yep, my region is beautiful and unfortunately very unknow even for spanish people 

@ Thank you for your great job, Chriszwolle.


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## radi6404

Bitxofo said:


> Not the whole, but about 65-70% of Spain is a plateau (Meseta).


sofia is the highest capital of europe


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## Nacho_82

a couple of houses in a mountain don't make sofia the highest capital 

Most of Madrid is at 650m to say the least, whereas Sofia's average altitude is around 550m


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## Bitxofo

radi6404 said:


> sofia is the highest capital of europe


No, Madrid is higher than Sofia: 650-715 metres high.
:yes:


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## Obidos

Bitxofo said:


> Not the whole, but about 65-70% of Spain is a plateau (Meseta).


Not so far... think that only central territories within Castilla y León, Castilla-La Mancha and south of Madrid are plateau. Rest plains as Ebro depression (Zaragoza) and Guadalquivir depression (Seville) don´t belong to the plateau...
I think that mainly 45% of Spanish territory is a plateau... think that in Castilla y León, for example, mountains are 45% of territory.


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## radi6404

sofia´s lowest point is like 520 m but it goes up to 1000 m and the half of sofia is higher than 600 m, I am sure if we look at Madrit average and Sofia average Sofia is higher because it has many parts which are above 800 m


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## ChrisZwolle

Sarajevo: 500m
Sofia: 550m
Madrid: 667m
Andorra la Vella: 1.023m


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## x-type

Obidos said:


> Not so far... think that only central territories within Castilla y León, Castilla-La Mancha and south of Madrid are plateau. Rest plains as Ebro depression (Zaragoza) and Guadalquivir depression (Seville) don´t belong to the plateau...
> I think that mainly 45% of Spanish territory is a plateau... think that in Castilla y León, for example, mountains are 45% of territory.


when i said that Spain is a plateau, i said it more figuratively, so i meant mostly central part (of course, not considering about high mountains such as Cordillera Central, Pyrenees and Sierra Nevada). the fact i didnßt know and that suprrised me is Guadalquivir valley - i had not idea that it was so low!


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## Verso

^^ x-type, what's with that "ß" instead of apostrophe (')?


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## x-type

my pc is counting last days because everything is screwed up, and before i get new components, i'm using german keyboard (i can choose german, french or u.s.). and at the place where croatian keyboard has ' german has ß


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## Verso

Sorry for the PC.


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## Stifler

Updated map of the Spanish network of Autovías and Autopistas. Awesome work done by the ex-forumer *pacopaco*.










Bigger version (5MB): http://one.fsphost.com/xxxxsddf/rnabeta70.jpg

The legend is not difficult but I can help if any translation is required.
DIA: Environmental Impact Assessment
En Funcionamiento: On service
Planificadas: Planned
En Obra: Under construction


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## Bitxofo

Chriszwolle said:


> Sarajevo: 500m
> Sofia: 550m
> Madrid: 667m
> Andorra la Vella: 1.023m


It is true, we forgot Andorra la Vella!

Andorra la Vella is the highest European capital!!
:yes:


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## x-type

omg really!

btw, i cannot believe - we had that question in "Wo Wants To Be Millionaire" and they didn't mention Andorra!


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## ChrisZwolle

I have a few questions about the M30:

1) Are there still traffic lights on the northern section (Avenida de la Illustración)?
2) From where to where are the tunnels exactly? Google Earth is not very clear on this.
3) Is the part with the Rio Manzanares in the center now replaced by a tunnel? 
4) Does the connector from the M30 to the M40 in the Northwest of the city have a number? (Near exit 25 on the M30 and exit 51 on the M40)
5) Is the whole M30 up to motorway standards? Especially the Avenida de Illustración part?
6) If i planned to drive here, what are the best times to do that without a lot of traffic jams? 

Thanks in advance.


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## x-type

Chriszwolle said:


> 4) Does the connector from the M30 to the M40 in the Northwest of the city have a number? (Near exit 25 on the M30 and exit 51 on the M40)


isn't it just one giant knot M40/M30?


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## Cicerón

Chriszwolle said:


> I have a few questions about the M30:


OK. I don't live in Madrid and don't go there very often, but I'll answer anyway.



Chriszwolle said:


> 1) Are there still traffic lights on the northern section (Avenida de la Illustración)?


Yes. The North Bypass will solve this problem (it isn't built yet).



Chriszwolle said:


> 2) From where to where are the tunnels exactly? Google Earth is not very clear on this.


The train station in the top of the picture is Atocha Station.














Chriszwolle said:


> 3) Is the part with the Rio Manzanares in the center now replaced by a tunnel?


Yes, it is. Except the part near Vicente Calderón (Atlético de Madrid) Stadium, but it's only the inner/"clockwise" part. The Stadium will be demolished the next year, then the tunnel will be complete.



Carretero said:


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Chriszwolle said:


> 4) Does the connector from the M30 to the M40 in the Northwest of the city have a number? (Near exit 25 on the M30 and exit 51 on the M40)


I think it doesn't. As x-type says, it's just a big junction.



Chriszwolle said:


> 5) Is the whole M30 up to motorway standards? Especially the Avenida de Illustración part?


The Avenida de la Ilustración is not. The tunnels have narrow shoulders, but they have the width that the Spanish laws say they should, so :dunno:



Chriszwolle said:


> 6) If i planned to drive here, what are the best times to do that without a lot of traffic jams?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


2:00 am? :lol: Nah, I don't know. Moreover, driving in Madrid is a nightmare, everybody seems to be hurry.


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## ChrisZwolle

Thanks for the extensive answer! The Madrid road network really intrigues me. I just saw a 60.000 square meter Carrefour in Majahonda near the M503 motorway. That's like 40 times the average size larger Dutch supermarket.

The Madrid network is very intersting, the M30 serves the downtown and nearby neighborhoods, while the M40 serves the outter neighborhoods and industrial areas. The M45 and M50 serves the suburbs, aswell as the Radials.

I don't think there is any European city with such a great infrastructure, whether we are talking about roads or massive transit. I see there is a lot of space for Madrid expansion along these motorway corridors. The only missing link is a northern bypass, since through traffic from A1 to A4, A5 and A(P)-6 still have to use the urban motorways of Madrid.


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## Stifler

Chriszwolle said:


> 6) If i planned to drive here, what are the best times to do that without a lot of traffic jams?


Cicerón answered the others, so only a comment.

M30 is a busy road always, but of course there are not so many traffic jams. There are less cars on holidays, as many Madrilians leave the city. If not, try to avoid the time when people go to work (7-10am) and when they return to their houses (5-9pm)



Chriszwolle said:


> I don't think there is any European city with such a great infrastructure, whether we are talking about roads or massive transit. I see there is a lot of space for Madrid expansion along these motorway corridors. The only missing link is a northern bypass, since through traffic from A1 to A4, A5 and A(P)-6 still have to use the urban motorways of Madrid.


Current Madrid President, Esperanza Aguirre, promised to complete the M50 ring in 2009 if she won 2007 election. It will pass through el Pardo, so it will have to solve some enviromental problems.

PS. Your knowledge of the Spanish network is impressive.


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## arriaca

Chriszwolle said:


> I have a few questions about the M30:
> 
> 1) Are there still traffic lights on the northern section (Avenida de la Illustración)?
> 2) From where to where are the tunnels exactly? Google Earth is not very clear on this.
> 3) Is the part with the Rio Manzanares in the center now replaced by a tunnel?
> *4) Does the connector from the M30 to the M40 in the Northwest of the city have a number? (Near exit 25 on the M30 and exit 51 on the M40)*
> 5) Is the whole M30 up to motorway standards? Especially the Avenida de Illustración part?
> 6) If i planned to drive here, what are the best times to do that without a lot of traffic jams?
> 
> Thanks in advance.













M-11 (M-30 to Barajas Airport)


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## Stifler

Well, that's North-East instead of North-West.

Chris refered to the connection located at the end of Herrera Oria. I think it doesn't have any numeric name.


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## Verso

Chriszwolle said:


> 4) Does the connector from the M30 to the M40 in the Northwest of the city have a number? (Near exit 25 on the M30 and exit 51 on the M40)


Interesting question. Considering how short it is, we'd number it as M30 or M40, and then "Branch A" or B, C, ...


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## ChrisZwolle

In the Netherlands, something like that would be M301 or so. 

I am making a huge Madrid map right now. It's almost finished, a little patience.


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## x-type

why is in the map that i own this M11 motorway signed as A10?


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## ChrisZwolle




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## ChrisZwolle

x-type said:


> why is in the map that i own this M11 motorway signed as A10?


A10 is in northern Spain; from Altsasu to Irurtzun, between Vitoria and Pamplona. The section is 29km long.


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## Cicerón

x-type said:


> why is in the map that i own this M11 motorway signed as A10?


Because the M-11 was the A-10 until 2004. The current A-10 was the N-240. :nuts:










http://www.fomento.es/MFOM/LANG_CAS...ALES/CARRETERAS/NUEVA_DENOMINACION/madrid.htm


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## Verso

x-type said:


> why is in the map that i own this M11 motorway signed as A10?


Throw your map away, that's my last warning. :lol:


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## ChrisZwolle

I heard País Vasco refuses to change the numbers.


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## arriaca

Stifler said:


> Well, that's North-East instead of North-West.
> 
> Chris refered to the connection located at the end of Herrera Oria. I think it doesn't have any numeric name.



:nuts:

Admittedly, I live east of Madrid, and that is why I confused.


What about this?


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## Reivajar

Yes, basque governements keep old number system.

M-30 and M-40 connection in Herrera Oria hasn't number beacuse that's only a normal interchange

There are some mistakes in Viamichelin map.

Madrid September 2007


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## ChrisZwolle

Impressive, why so many motorways in the region of Toledo?


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## ChrisZwolle

Who did ever drove in the Bielsa-Aragnouet tunnel? Well, i did. The tunnel is located on the border of France and Spain, in the Pyrenees, in the province of Aragón. 

This tunnel was definatly by far the most dangerous tunnel i've ever driven. The whole tunnel is unlighted, and has no road markings, and has a 5% descent (or ascend)! Sometimes, unlighted cyclist are driving here. The tunnel is notorious by cyclists, because it takes about 20 minutes in complete darkness to complete the passage on a bicycle. 

Thank god the traffic is very low, it's not a high-profile mountain pass, however it does ascend to 1820 meters.


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## picassoborseli

Chriszwolle said:


> Impressive, why so many motorways in the region of Toledo?



As you can see A lot of autopistas around Toledo are not toll-free. (AP-41 and R-4.)
For faster, cheaper and better connections from Toledo to Madrid, Sevilla, Valencia and Madrid Suburbs (and vice versa). If you want to go to Cordoba or Sevilla you have to take N-roads. 

PS:
Je bent goed op de hoogte van alles!
(You have a lot of knowledge of this all!)


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## Cicerón

@Reivajar: Where is that map from? I want one!


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## Reivajar

Cicerón said:


> @Reivajar: Where is that map from? I want one!


xDDDD

For Christmas :tongue:

That's a detailed area of a bigger map that includes other urban areas and the national and regional motorways and expressways network made by me..xD


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## Nephasto

Is the M-410 opened all the way from AP-41 to A-4?


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## Reivajar

Not, there are only 5,8 kilometers in service between Moraleja de Enmedio and Humanes de Madrid. I have to correcto some mistakes, but first of all I have to find enough time to do it..

For example I must draw new project of R-1...


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, what about the R1? How far north will it go? 

Are there plans for a R6?


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## ChrisZwolle

Some Barcelona pics found on Google Earth;

B-10 Ronda del Litoral









Avenida del Litoral (adjacent to B-10 Autopista)









Avenida Diagonal from Ronda de Dalt









B-20 Ronda de Dalt









B-20 bridge in Santa Coloma de Gramenet.









B-24 nortwest of Barcelona.









Again B-24


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## Stifler

Chriszwolle said:


> The A-23 between Teruel and Valencia is completed after 11 years of work. The Autovía Mudéjar runs from Valencia to Zaragoza. In 2008, the final 30km somewhere between Teruel and Zaragoza will be completed, giving a full link between these two large cities.


Great news. It is about time!

I don't know if they have already been posted here but I found some interesting pics posted by *Theremin* in Urbanity.

*Radial R-5 in Madrid*
One of the best Spanish Autopistas in terms of quality. Pics where taken last year so it looks emptier than it's now.





































*M50 in Madrid*
For me the best Spanish Autovía (leaving apart the landscape).


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## ChrisZwolle

Good to see there is space leftover for future possible expansion.


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## Mateusz

Probabl it will be expanded


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## arriaca

Cicerón said:


> http://www.motorpasion.com/2007/12/03-de-70-a-0-kmh-en-solo-9-senales



:lol::lol::lol:​


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## ChrisZwolle

C-32 near Cunit









C-32 near Vilanova i la Geltrú









C-32 toll plaza near Sitges









C-32 near Sitges









C-32 east of Sitges









Gran Via in Barcelona









Gran Via in Barcelona, Autopista section









Gran Via looking towards Barcelona 









Gran Via, semi-double-decker.









Gran Via street canyon









C-32 near Mataró









C-32 in Mataró


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## x-type

does anybody know something about the tunnels at AP7 between Barcelona and La Jonquera (i mean names, lenghts nad locations)? i remember few of them (maybe 5), but i don't know anything about them


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## Booze

Chriszwolle said:


> Good to see there is space leftover for future possible expansion.


Many spanish highways have space for at least 3 lanes, looking at that picture, I'd say M-50 has space for 4 lanes. 

The construction process is quite fast. In Mallorca we expect to have many kilometers extended to 3 lanes in recent years.


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## Nephasto

Chriszwolle said:


> Good to see there is space leftover for future possible expansion.





Stifler said:


>



Indeed. This stretch which is a 2+2+2+2 right now, seems to have space to be expanded up to a 2+4+4+2 or even 3+4+4+3 in the future. kay:


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## Booze

Somo more pictures of the Ma-1 road / highway in Mallorca. 

Comments in spanish // Original thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=366522&page=15

-------

Fotos de la vía Ma-1, situada en el oeste de Mallorca. Tiene una longitud de 23Km, de los cuales 17 Km son autovía. La vía fue ampliada hace dos años, y se ha reasfaltado el trazado más antiguo. Tiene una IMD al llegar a Palma de unos 80.000 vehículos/día.

Como curiosidad, es la vía que utiliza Claudia Schiffer y otros famosuchos en sus vacaciones  Yo no la suelo usar porque en verano vivo en la otra punta de la isla, pero trabajo cerca. Hoy he aprovechado que he ido de excursión, mañana pongo fotos de la espectacular, por sus paisajes, Ma-10.

Aquí tenéis un mapa:










El tramo de carretera tiene algunas características de vía de doble calzada. Los accesos siempre son con plataforma de aceleración / deceleración, sólo hay un cruce a nivel, y hay algunos tramos de tres carriles.










A unos 20 Km de Palma ya han puesto paneles electrónicos, algo un tanto raro en una carretera convencional.










Otro justo después, antes de un tunel algo largo, casi 1Km:










Semáforos antes del túnel, con un cartel que anuncia "zona vigilada", no se porqué










El túnel










Después del túnel:










Aquí ya no hay cruce a nivel:










Empieza la autovía, a la izquierda hay un carrill bici y peatonal segregado que va pasando de una parte a otra de la vía. Aunque no lo parezca porque hay una barrera verde que la separa la zona urbana, es lugar bastante urbanizado.










La parte nueva de la autovía no es ampliable y no hay espacio útil en la mediana










La parte nueva de la vía está iluminada en su totalidad. Algo poco habitual en Mallorca aparte de la Ma-20 y la zona de Inca de la Ma-13.










Otro túnel










Ahora el carril peatonal está a la derecha, protegido acústicamente










Recomiendan una velocidad de 80Km/h pero no es obligatoria. La verdad es que conducir a 120Km/h con tanta curva y cambio de rasantes es complicado. Puede que lo pongan para evitar retenciones con velocidades más homogéneas.










Molinito y puente peatonal en una salida importante










Debajo de una rotonda










Otra vez la recomendación, aunque aquí se puede pisar bien. Los arbolitos me gustan, me recuerdan a la Vía Aurelia de Italia










Otro paso semideprimido para distribuir el tráfico en la cota superior.










Aquí empieza la parte antigua










La principal diferencia es que es ampliable a 3 carriles por sentido, y los radios de curva son mejores.










Se notan esos puentes tocho antiguos










Barreras acústicas para las viviendas, que están muy cerca en ese tramo. Es raro que no hayan puesto árboles.










Me gusta la jardinería :colgate:










Hay pocas zonas para disfrutar de las vistas, ya que la vía queda disimulada por una barrera verde, como en otros lugares de la isla.










El reasfaltado rugoso no me gusta nada, además es muy ruidoso










Aquí empieza un carril adicional de refuerzo. No es incorporación, es un tercer carril a todos los efectos de 1 Km aprox.










Aquí sirve para una salida










Y aquí para una entrada. A la derecha el castillo de Bendinat










Curva cerrada










Última salida antes del enlace con la Ma-20. Se nota el asfalto original y el reasfaltado










Esta birriosa señal advierte de la Ma-20, pero es dificil fijarse. Mucha gente se equivoca, ya que la autopista sigue hacia el puerto cuando la mayoría de gente se desvia a la Vía de Cintura!










Aquí la separación y el acceso al nudo de Génova.










Mañana más de la Ma-20 y Ma-10. Ciao!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Very nice. I quite understand the stuff written in Spanish.

Lately a new tunnel has been opened in the A14 Lleida - France just south of the French border near Vielha.


----------



## Booze

^^ Yes, it's a 3 lane tunnel (2+1) that replaced the old and dangerous one.

----

A bonus track of the Ma-10 road, that goes along the northern coast of Mallorca. It's a nice ride!


----------



## dhlennon

gincan said:


> If I remember correct the Autovias used to have a bidirectional lane that changed headway during rush hour and at places there were level crossings, are there still any of that left?
> Kinda dangerous for a foreigner coming to spain and driving along what he thinks is a motorway just to find out there are cars driving against his direction in the passing lane.


When I was a kid (in UK) I remember quite a few "bi-directional lanes", remember seeing quite a few in France too. They've all gone in UK now. We used to call them "suicide lanes" 

ps Like the green barcelona signs,


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Now this is a nice place to live, right next to the motorway. If you like air pollution and a lot of noise. 

This is the AP-8 in Bilbao, Northern Spain.


----------



## Stifler

Chriszwolle said:


> Now this is a nice place to live, right next to the motorway. If you like air pollution and a lot of noise.
> 
> This is the AP-8 in Bilbao, Northern Spain.


I have passed through this viaduct many times but I never thought buildings where THAT close.

I hope that woman doesn't like wearing light-coloured clothes


----------



## Skylandman

Some more pics from Flickr


Barcelona



















Madrid:









Not sure where









Madrid


----------



## x-type

the first photo in Barcelona - where it is?


----------



## Bitxofo

x-type said:


> the first photo in Barcelona - where it is?


In Torre del Baró-Ciutat Meridiana, the north entrance to BCN near Nus de la Trinitat.


----------



## x-type

i thought so, i know that part of Bcn very weakly


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## brisavoine

Chriszwolle said:


> Spain has currently the longest motorway-network of Europe, followed by Germany and France.


Says who? According to the OECD in 2005 Germany had 12,044 km of motorways, followed by France (10,486 km) and Spain (10,286 km).
Source: http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/show/1004947

The OECD figure for France doesn't even include the motorways in Brittany which are officially not called "autoroutes", even though they are really autoroutes. If we add Brittany's motorways, France had in reality 11,609 km in 2005 (+260 km opened in 2005, 62 km opened in 2006, and some more opened in 2007, which means France has now reached 12,000 km).

So I doubt that Spain has the longest motorway network in Europe.


----------



## Skylandman

brisavoine said:


> Says who? According to the OECD in 2005 Germany had 12,044 km of motorways, followed by France (10,486 km) and Spain (10,286 km).
> Source: http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/show/1004947
> 
> The OECD figure for France doesn't even include the motorways in Brittany which are officially not called "autoroutes", even though they are really autoroutes. If we add Brittany's motorways, France had in reality 11,609 km in 2005 (+260 km opened in 2005, 62 km opened in 2006, and some more opened in 2007, which means France has now reached 12,000 km).
> 
> So I doubt that Spain has the longest motorway network in Europe.


in december 2005 Spain had over 13,000 kms:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Autopistas_y_autovías_de_España


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, and a lot has been constructed since 2005. And there is still some 4.955 kilometers of motorway projects to construct. 

( I calculated all projects as said on Spanish wikipedia together, if anyone's interested, i can make a list).


----------



## brisavoine

Skylandman said:


> in december 2005 Spain had over 13,000 kms:
> 
> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Autopistas_y_autovías_de_España


As if Wikipedia was a reliable source. That's 1,500 km more than what the OECD says. Sorry but I prefer to stay with OECD figure, so there's no evidence that Spain has the longest motorway network (also, the OECD mentions that Spain has a very "large" definition of what is a motorway compared to other countries, which inflates their figures).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

brisavoine said:


> As if Wikipedia was a reliable source. That's 1,500 km more than what the OECD says. Sorry but I prefer to stay with OECD figure, so there's no evidence that Spain has the longest motorway network (also, the OECD mentions that Spain has a very "large" definition of what is a motorway compared to other countries, which inflates their figures).


FYI: i have calculated all Spanish Autovias and Autopista's together, and came around 13.500 kms for 2007. I don't have the list here, because i am at work right now, but i can show it tonight. 

2005 is now 3 years ago, and it's not like Spanish road construction is in a standstill...


----------



## brisavoine

The Wikipedia figure said 13,100 km in 2005! So they counted 1,500 more kilometers than the OECD that year. No wonder Wikipedia is little reliable.

You counted Spanish autopistas and autovías yourself, good. Then I suggest you do the same for France. 11,609 km, the figure the OECD gave for France in 2005, doesn't include the 2*2 expressways, contrary to Spain, so the figures are not comparable. If you include all 2*2 expressways in the Spanish figure, then you have to do the same for France.

Here's the most accurate map of French motorways/freeways and 2*2 expressways. Everything is shown, not just the official "autoroutes". As you can see the real network is much longer than only the "autoroutes". The map is accurate as of mid-December 2007. Do you have a similarly accurate map for Spain?










Here in blue you can see the 2*2 expressways, i.e. the motorways that are not officially called "autoroutes", and which are therefore not counted in the official French total, unlike in Spain. So let's count everything and then we can make comparisons.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

France has 10.689 km of Autoroute, and 3.097 km of Voie Expresse, as of end 2006. 
Spain has 12.946 km of Autopista & Autovía as of end 2006.
Germany has 12.624 km of Autobahn, and 1.561 km of Gelbe Autobahnen as of end 2006.

As of end 2006:
1) Germany 14.185km
2) France 13.786km
3) Spain 12.946km

remark: not all German Gelbe Autobahnen have very high standards, often bad geometry, short on and offramps and often the lack of a proper shoulder. France's Autoroutes and Voie Expresse are usually at a high standard, and that is also the case in Spanish Autopista's and Autovías. 

We can say without a doubt that Spain has been the most productive in 2007 road construction, and this pace is likely to continue, as there are another 4.955 km of Autopista's and Autovías planned or under construction as of end 2007.


----------



## brisavoine

Chriszwolle said:


> France has 10.689 km of Autoroute, and 3.097 km of Voie Expresse, as of end 2006.
> Spain has 12.946 km of Autopista & Autovía as of end 2006.
> Germany has 12.624 km of Autobahn, and 1.561 km of Gelbe Autobahnen as of end 2006.
> 
> As of end 2006:
> 1) Germany 14.185km
> 2) France 13.786km
> 3) Spain 12.946km


Where did you get these figures? Did you count them yourself? In any case it confirms what I was saying. Spain doesn't have the longest motorway network in Europe.


Chriszwolle said:


> We can say without a doubt that Spain has been the most productive in 2007 road construction, and this pace is likely to continue, as there are another 4.955 km of Autopista's and Autovías planned or under construction as of end 2007.


What motorways were opened in Spain in 2007? In France they opened several motorways such as the A85 autoroute near Tours and they are working on the spectacular Tamarind Road (a motorway in fact) in the Réunion

I don't know how many kilometers of French motorways are planned and/or under construction. I know they will build the Sées-Caen motorway, the missing link between Clermont-Ferrand and Lyon (a spectacular motorway it will be), the Sens-Orléans motorway, the Bordeaux-Pau motorway, the Annecy-Genève motorway, and the Gap-Grenoble motorway which will probably become the most spectacular European motorway.

Unfortunately the big environment conference in October decided to stop all new construction of motorways in France (except for those I mentioned which were already planned). I think it's a stupid decision because some cities/regions still need motorway links (like we've been waiting for the Toulouse-Lyon motorway for a long time), but that's the way it is. So I'd say at the most they'll probably add only 1,000 to 2,000 km to the current French network.


----------



## xote

You can always count on Brisavoine to defend to the death the glory of France. :yes:


----------



## brisavoine

Oh Chriszwolle, since you seem to have access to stats, I wonder if you know which country has the longest network of 2*3 motorways in Europe. In France as you can see on the map I posted in the previous page, there are already a lot, and they're planning to add some more (like they are going to make the motorway from Toulouse to the Mediterranean entirely 2*3). In Spain I can't remember any 2*3 motorway except in the metropolitan area of Barcelona (and of course Madrid but I've never driven there).


----------



## brisavoine

xote said:


> You can always count on Brisavoine to defend to the death the glory of France. :yes:


It doesn't have anything to do with glory. It has to do with factual accuracy. If people claim something they should make sure their claim is true. That's all.

By the way, I remember the days when the motorway stopped at Alicante and then it was terrible terrible roads to reach Algeciras down south. And older people in my family still remember the unpaved dirt roads in the province of Almeria back in the 1970s. 

Spain has changed a lot for sure.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

2x3? Definatly Great Britain. That's the building standard there, the far majority of the British motorways are 2x3 lanes.


----------



## brisavoine

Yeah, but there aren't that many British motorways in the first place, so I'm not so sure Britain has the most. As for Germany I've never driven there, so I don't know if they have many 2*3.


----------



## Stifler

I think Chris data is very reliable. The motorway network must be pretty similar among the 'big three' nowadays, although it's difficult to make a proper comparison.

About the pace in Spain, I only have data for the motorways funded by the Spanish Government (as you may know the Spanish Autonumus Communities also build road by themselves, especially in the last years).

- 1,121 km of new motorways opened between Mar2004 (last elections) and Feb2007.

- 1,303 km of new motorways started the contruction works between Mar2004 and Feb2007.

Both data taken from official sources.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

brisavoine said:


> Yeah, but there aren't that many British motorways in the first place, so I'm not so sure Britain has the most. As for Germany I've never driven there, so I don't know if they have many 2*3.


Germany has a lot, but by far not all through motorways.

About Great Britain; i made a list here

I don't want to spoil this thread with German of British issues.


----------



## brisavoine

Maybe you should open a thread about 2*3 motorways. It's an interesting subject. Driving on a 2*3 motorway is a completely different experience from driving on a 2*2 motorway, I can tell from experience when they enlarged the motorways in my home region.

For France according to the map posted on the previous page I find about 2,100 km of 2*3 motorways (counting with Michelin maps, excluding suburban motorways in big cities). In the UK they have only 3,657 km of motorways in total according to the OECD but not all of it is 2*3. In Spain and Germany I have no idea. If you have data it would be great to open a thread like I said.


----------



## Reivajar

Maybe Germany has more kilometers of 3+3 motorways. A great portion on main axis (A1 to A9) has 3 lanes, and due to density in Germany it's quite common finding a lot of 3+3 motorways in any region.

Long strechtes with 3+3 lanes.

A1: Köln - Dortmund and Hamburg - Lübeck
A2: Essen - Postdam (almost the whole motorway)
A3: Essen - Ashaffenburg
A4: more than 50% but combined with some 2+2 lanes stretches.
A5: Baden-Baden - A6 junction and Darmstadt - A45 junction.
A7: Hamburg - Hildesheim
A9: München - Postdam

I've only wrote long stretches on main axis, but there are a lot of 3+3 lanes stretches. For more info I recommend that map: http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/index_e.html

In Spain there are not long stretches with 3+3 lanes. You can find them easily in urban areas (Madrid, Barcelona, Valence, Seville, Malaga, Bilbao, Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, etc) but it's not very common on long distances. A think longest 3+3 or more lanes stretches in Spain are in Barcelona (AP-7 surely) and in Madrid (A-4 and A-6). Moeover you have to think that Spain has not a population uniformly distributed. It's concentrated on the coast and in the center (Madrid).

And don't worry about talking about German, French or British motorways. We are comparing.


----------



## arriaca

En la pagina 152 del Anuario http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/D5194306-22AB-4325-9B06-CD557EAFDE0F/29663/anuario2006.pdf podemos leer lo siguiente:

7. Carreteras
2. Red de carreteras del Estado, Comunidades Autónomas y Diputaciones y Cabildos
por tipo y ancho de vía

_*Año 2006 *_
Km totales de la red 166.339 km

*Suma de km de vías de gran capacidad 13.872 km*

Autopistas de peaje 2.815 km

Autovías y autopistas libres 9.258 km

Carreteras de doble calzada 1.799


Y en la pagina 172 os encontráis con esta tabla para disipar cualquier duda:

RED DE ALTA CAPACIDAD
TOTAL NACIONAL A 31-12-2006 (*)

AUTOPISTAS DE PEAJE
Dependientes del Estado ................................................................... 2.337,2
Dependientes de las Comunidades Autonomas ................................. 352,3
Dependientes de las Diputaciones .................................................... 125,4
Total .......................................................................... 2.814,9

AUTOPISTAS LIBRES Y AUTOVIAS
Dependientes del Estado ................................................................... 7.014,2
Dependientes de las Comunidades Autonomas ................................. 1.670,6
Dependientes de las Diputaciones .................................................... 574,9
Total .......................................................................... 9.259,7

DOBLE CALZADA
Dependientes del Estado ................................................................... 726,8
Dependientes de las Comunidades Autonomas ................................. 793,2
Dependientes de las Diputaciones .................................................... 277,5
Total .......................................................................... 1.797,5


Un ejemplo de los datos que contiene: 

ANDALUCIA

AUTOPISTAS DE PEAJE

Dependientes del Estado ...................................................................192,4
Total ................................................................................... 192,4

PROVINCIA DEPENDENCIA CARRETERA DENOMINACION TRAMO KILOMETROS
CADIZ ESTADO AP-4 Sevilla a Cadiz L.P.Sevilla-Puerto Real 44,1
CADIZ ESTADO AP-7 Autopista del Mediterráneo Guadiaro-L.P. Málaga 2,2

Total Provincia .......................................................................... 46,3

Y así provincia por provincia. Mucho mejor y más preciso que con un mapa de carreteras.


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## ChrisZwolle

Upcoming Autovia and Autopista projects of road owned by the government;

AP-1 Eibar - Vitoria 40km
A-2 Alfajarín - Fraga 91km
A-2 Caldes de Malavella - La Jonquera 68km
A-7 Barcelona - Villafranca del Penedes 32km (As B-24 currently)
A-7 El Vendrell - Tarragona 25km
A-7 Tarragona - Valencia 144km
A-7 Ontinyent - Alcoy 31km
A-7 Adra - Motril - Almunecar 80km
AP-7 Bypass Alicante 25km
A-8 Solares - Torrelavega 28km
A-8 Unquera - Llanes 21km
A-8 Muros de Nalón - Ballota 20km
A-8 Otur - Villapedre 9km
A-8 Navia - Ribadeo 23km
A-8 Reinante - Villalba 59km
A-8 Abeledo - Baamonde 5km
A-11 Soria - El Burgo de Osma 64km
A-11 El Burgo de Osma - Tudela de Duero 130km
A-11 Zamora - Portuguese border 86km
A-13 Logrono - Soria 105km
A-14 Lleida - Benaberre 58km
A-15 Medinaceli - Tudela 154km
A-21 Pamplona - Jaca 110km
A-22 Huesca - Lleida 110km
A-23 Teruel - Zaragoza 28km
A-24 Daroca - Burgos ~300km
A-26 Figueres - Ripoll 73km
A-27 Tarragona - Lleida ~100km
A-32 Linares - Albacete 250km
A-33 Cieza - Fuente la Higuera ~ 50km?
A-40 Avila - Maqueda 95km
A-40 Maqueda - Toledo 38km
A-40 Toledo - Tarancón 100km
A-40 Tarancón - Carracosa del Campo 29km
A-40 Cuenca - Teruel ~140km
AP-41 Toledo - Córdoba ~ 250km
A-43 Torrefresneda - Atalaya de Canavete ~250km
A-44 Granada - Motril 27km
A-45 Córdoba - Málaga 50km
A-48 Vejer - Algeciras 120km
A-50 Avila - Salamanca 96km
AP-53 Dozon - Ourense 30km
A-54 Santiago de Compostela - Lugo 110km
A-57 Pontevedra - Porrino 35km
A-58 Trujillo - Caceres 40km
A-60 Valladolid - León 130km
A-63 La Espina - Luarca 30km
A-65 Palencia - Benavente 92km
A-66 Benavente - Zamora 50km
A-66 Zamora - Salamanca 56km
A-66 Plasencia 41km
A-66 Mérida - Sevilla 23km
A-67 Palencia - Santander 78km
A-68 Tortosa - Miranda de Ebro ~ 500km
AP-69 Reinosa - Miranda de Ebro 120km
A-72 Monforte de Lemos - Chantada 30km
A-73 Burgos - Aguilar de Campo 79km
A-74 Almadén - Ciudad Real 20km
A-75 Verín - Portuguese border 11km
A-76 Ponferrada - Ourense 150km
A-80 Ribadasella - Cangas de Onis 21km
R-1 Madrid - El Molar 45km
R-3 Arganda del Rey - Tarancón 45km

---->>> TOTAL: *5.250km*

EDIT: Source: Spanish wikipedia!


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## ChrisZwolle

> Carreteras de doble calzada 1.799


I doubt if those are motorways, literally translated it means something like "road with double lanes". If you subtract it, you have about 12.073km of motorway in 2006, which can be close to my figure of 12.946 km in 2007.


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## brisavoine

Reivajar said:


> For more info I recommend that map: http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/index_e.html


Super! kay:

Now who will volunteer to count the number of km of 2*3 on that German map?


----------



## Pavlemadrid

Chriszwolle said:


> I doubt if those are motorways, literally translated it means something like "road with double lanes". If you subtract it, you have about 12.073km of motorway in 2006, which can be close to my figure of 12.946 km in 2007.


In Spain are most km in road with double lanes!! 
Only 2 highways....:
-A-4: 660km.
-A-7: 1300-1400km.
2x3? I don't understand....

But 3x3 isn't only in Madrid or Barcelona, there are in all the big cities.... I don't know hardly big cities of Spain but I see in Valencia, Madrid of course, Vigo, Cordoba.... And are too small zones of 3x3 in rural zones....

Ah, too are 4x4.... but is the max. But in some zones of Madrid with many entries and exits can be 5 or 6!!

Today autovías and autopistas that begin in Madrid (I forget):
-A1
-R1 (future)
-A2
-R2
-M-607
-A-6
-M65 (future)
-M501 (future)
-A5
-R5
-A42
-AP41
-A4
-R4
-A3
-R3

And many others most shorts....
PD: In this roads aren't the highways of Madrid Metropolitan area.... (Circunvalations, connecting cities....)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-7 Autovía del Mediterráneo 1330km
AP-7 Autopista del Mediterráneo 1380km
A-66 Autovía Ruta de la Plata 809km

These are the longest i think.


----------



## Stifler

According to my sources in 2006:

A7/AP7: 1421 km
A2/AP2: 758 km
A4/AP4: 680 km
A6/AP6: 636 km
A66/AP66: 504 km
A92: 494 km
A1/AP1: 447 km

But the pace of construction in A66 is likely the faster in the whole network, so it could be around 700-800 km nowadays.


----------



## Nephasto

^^How did you reach that number for the A92?
It links Seville to Almeria and the distance is around 400km.
Probably you've added the A92N branch (and maybe even the A92M and A92G), but that's not fair, as those are diferent freeways.


----------



## Stifler

Yeah, of course it's including A92N, A92M, A92G.

I also think they are different motorways but in the report made by the Ministry of Public Works they name all them simply 'A92'.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is the A-92 State owned, or Andalucia owned?


----------



## Stifler

It's the main motorway owned by Andalucia, which started to be built because of Seville Expo1992. That's the reason why it's named A92.

Others are A381, A359....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

1. SE-30 southside of Sevilla.









2. Centario bridge









3. SE-30 through old boroughs of Sevilla.









4. SE-30 near A-92 interchange.









5. SE-30 on the eastside of Sevilla.









6. Alamillo bridge northside of Sevilla, where the SE-30 is not quite up to Autovía standards.









7. Interchange SE-30 and A-66 









8. A-49 heading for Huelva at night.









9. A-376 southeast of Sevilla.


----------



## runi

Thanks a lot for the nice pics, Chris! Those bridges in Sevilla look amazing! :cheers:

I really like the Spanish signs in autopistas and autovias, sometimes they have a lot of information but stay quite clear imo (with some exceptions like everywhere else, of course).

I see they use the same system as in Madrid when it comes to name the urban ringroad. Is that common in Spain? Does Sevilla have a SE-40 too?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I thought a SE-40 is planned to be a second ringroad. The northern side of the SE-30 has some traffic lights and (large) roundabouts.


----------



## Nephasto

SE-40 is being built.


----------



## Mateusz

How many kilometres of motorways and expressways has Spain ?


----------



## Cicerón

Here you have some pictures of the works in SE-40 junction with A-4 in october:



>


Thanks to Alberto Martín. http://www.sevilla21.com/foro/viewtopic.php?t=227&start=450

It will be 3+3 with room enough to be expanded to 4+4. There will be four tunnels under Guadalquivir river 2+2+2+2 (which can be expanded to 3+3+3+3).

About the northern part of SE-30. It's not the "real" SE-30 but the Ronda Urbana Norte.

The real SE-30 should have been like this (in orange):



SPQHis said:


> El problema está en que esa zona nunca fue la proyectada para la SE-30, puesto que la glorieta olimpica (la del alamillo) no se puede soterrar.
> El proyecto de cierre de la SE-30 es este:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> En amarillo la actual RUN, que es lo que van a soterrar y que actualmente se usa como enlace entre la SE30 este (Nudo de la Gota de leche) y la SE30 norte (Viaducto del Alamillo/A66). En naranja, toda la SE30 una vez hagan el desvio.


But it will be built the next year as a part of the SE-35.


----------



## runi

It seems the SE-40 is quite far from the city centre, I've just read it will be 77 km long! :shocked:


----------



## Skylandman

Actually the first streth of the SE40 which, if i´m not mistaken, goes from the A92 (somewhere close to Alcala de Guadaira) to the A4 close to Dos Hermanas, should be already U/C.


Well, some more pics:

La Coruña road in Madrid









Burgos Road, Madrid.










TF5, Sta Cruz - La Laguna










Madrid, traficc jam during last Eastern









Somewhere close to Onil, Alicante









Logroño ring road









Not sure where, but for those who understand spanish the sign may seem quite weird!










AP7









Canary Islands









A2









Nudo Landa, close to Burgos i belive.









A3









Autovia to the Airport, Ibiza, while U/C









A52, Ourense









San José, Canary Islands



























AS1, autovia Minera









Canary Islands



























Not sure where









End of the Ca33 when entering Cádiz from San Fernando, not a very nice view here, but a few hundred meters back this highway has one of the nicest views of the whole spanish network: on your right a sandy atlantic beach with beautiful dunes, and on your left the natural park of the Cadiz Bay. really worths the trip.










Not sure where


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MateoW said:


> How many kilometres of motorways and expressways has Spain ?


Over 13.000 kilometers, check previous page.


----------



## alsajano

*The Montabliz Viaduct in A67 Cantabria-Meseta (U/C)*









More in:
http://www.urbanity.es/foro/showthread.php?p=97682#post97682


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## Booze

Random driving when you go out. I think it's Ibiza, so they probably encourage to take turns among friends in order not to drive drunk or druged (which is more likely on that island :crazy: ) The sign It's pretty weird indeed, here in Mallorca we don't have such strange messages like that ones XD

That road looks quite ugly I guess the picture is taken after a storm mixed with Sahara sand. The road was very polemical since many people didn't want it to be built. Here you have the whole construction process: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fnogues/sets/72057594119510020/


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## Skylandman

Some random shots of the M30 at night:


----------



## ren0312

I am just wondering, how much are gas prices in the EU per liter, in my country they are about 74 Eurocents, and in the US they are about 55 Eurocents a liter.


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## Btxr_art

Nephasto said:


> ^^Can you also represent the AP-68 in that map?


Of course.

In red the A-8 (now used one)
In green the A-8 parts that are going to get amplify
In blue the Supersur
In brown the AP-68
In purple the road that you say that you have to take to enter from the AP-68 to the A-8










I have to correct that the green part between the red parts is also an extension of the "Supersur" to the port. (That is the part that we can see in the last renders). Sorry.

To the type of conection between the Supersur and the AP-68 I have no idea, sorry. Perhaps anothere forumer can tell you.


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## Nephasto

@Crhis:
Ah, ok!
Nowadays people can use N-I to go from France to Vitoria. The only problem it's that it's a substandard autovia(the Alsasua to S. Sebastian stretch).
I've already gone to France many times using the AP-68 and the A-8, via Bilbao, instead of the N-I.
But with the the oppening of the AP-1 from Vitoria to Eibar(A-8), that will no longer be needed, as the AP-1 will be shorter (even shorter than the N-I) and a very good motorway.

Thanks for the map Btxr_art! kay:


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## ChrisZwolle

Someone ordered a greenhouse?


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## Nephasto

^^A couple of them! :colgate:

PS: You have your google earth in spanish?


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## ChrisZwolle

Nephasto said:


> PS: You have your google earth in spanish?


Yeah, i'm trying to learn some Spanish, but i'm not going to school anymore, so i have to learn it another way 

I have this forum in Spanish too.


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## lpioe

Chriszwolle said:


> Yeah, i'm trying to learn some Spanish, but i'm not going to school anymore, so i have to learn it another way
> 
> I have this forum in Spanish too.


Where can you change the language of the forum?

Edit: Ok found it.


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## Nephasto

Oh, ok! 
It's always good to learn a new language! kay:


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## Bitxofo

Chriszwolle said:


> Someone ordered a greenhouse?


Los invernaderos de Almería.


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## ChrisZwolle

Bitxofo said:


> Los invernaderos de Almería.


la entera región es lleno de invernaderos!


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## ChrisZwolle

Incredible amount of tunnels by the way;

* Tunnel Arnotegi 1750m
* Tunnel Larraskitu 900m
* Tunnel Arraiz 2300m
* Tunnel Santa Agueda 2100m
* Tunnel Argalario 1850m
* Tunnel Burtozamendo 1450m
* Tunnel Bekea 860m
* Tunnel San Antón 2760m
* Tunnel Tximintxe 1100m
* Tunnel Zaballa 270m
* Tunnel Gallarta 4350m
* Tunnel Murrieta 1020m


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## OettingerCroat

^^ GREAT renderings!


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## Stifler

Chriszwolle said:


> Someone ordered a greenhouse?


It's stunning. Almería has become a pretty wealthy region with those greenhouses and it has a large amount of inmigrants working there

Some days ago amsie posted some pics from A7 in Almeria, between Adra and Albuñol. It's really odd to see a new Spanish motorway built using concrete.



amsie said:


>


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## Stifler

Chriszwolle said:


> Yeah, i'm trying to learn some Spanish, but i'm not going to school anymore, so i have to learn it another way
> 
> I have this forum in Spanish too.


You are always welcome in the Spanish forum kay:



Chriszwolle said:


> la entera región es lleno de invernaderos!


Notice Spanish uses two different verbs for 'to be': 'ser' and 'estar'.

He is from Zwolle--> Él ES de Zwolle. (SER)
He is in Zwolle--> Él ESTÁ en Zwolle. (ESTAR)

So the correct sentence would be: La entera región está llena de invernaderos. It's a typical mistake among foreigners.

Your progress is awesome though. How many languages can you read?


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## Maxx☢Power

Stifler said:


>


That is one ugly motorway


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## ChrisZwolle

Stifler said:


> Your progress is awesome though. How many languages can you read?


I have some sense for languages

I can read most of what is written on Spanish wikipedia. I can also read French, German, English, Danish and i know how to translate Cyrillic into Latin letters. 

Portuguese also looks a bit like Spanish, so i can read a bit of Portuguese wikipedia too.


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## Cicerón

GC-2 highway, in the north of Gran Canaria island. Comments are in Spanish, but he mainly says that there are lots of curves because of the terrain, the maximum speed allowed is only 80-100 km/h and the highway runs between the sea and the mountains.




DAGAFLE said:


> Hola... Aquí pongo unas fotos de la GC-2, que es el corredor costero del Norte de Gran Canaria, concretamente de los 8 kms de autovía más cercanos a la capital. La orografía condiciona mucho el trazado, con numerosas curvas, lo que hace que el límite de velocidad sea, en gran parte del trazado de 80 km/h, aunque también nos encontramos con rectas donde éste se aumenta a 100 km/h. Casi siempre se circula al lado del mar, y entre pequeños acantilados.
> 
> Todavía dentro del casco urbano de la Ciudad
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> Puente El Rincón
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> Aquí ya empiezan las curvas; bandas sonoras, señalización alta visibilidad
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> Como siempre, hubo que esperar a los accidentes mortales y la caída de coches al mar para poner unas barreras de hormigón en condiciones
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> En este tramo se ganó terreno al mar para la construcción de la vía.
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> En muchos tramos, la vía de entrada está a un nivel superior que la de salida
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> Aquí se acaba la autovía, en sentido norte. Las retenciones en hora punta son desesperantes. Ahora están haciendo obras para desdoblar la carretera, parches hasta el proyecto definitivo de la ampliación de la autovía.
> 
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> Conexión con la zona urbana de Las Palmas y la GC-23/GC-3.
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> Túnel Julio Luengo, con 1160 m de longitud, que en horas punta se encuentra colapsado de principio a fin.


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## Cicerón

Some renderings about a future highway in Málaga.



Telecom said:


>





Telecom said:


> *Enlaces*​
> 
> 
> *Enlace I:* Comienzo de la Hiperronda en la AP-7.
> 
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> Vista hacia el Valle del Guadalhorce
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> Vista hacia Málaga capital
> 
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> 
> *Enlace V:* La Hiperronda desemboca en el nudo de las Virreinas, A-7 (Rondas Este y Oeste) y A-45. Además dará servicio a los barrios del norte de la capital, Ciudad Jardin, Virreinas, Palmilla





Telecom said:


> *Túnel de Churriana* 1280m
> 
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> Boca Norte
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> *
> Viaducto del Guadalhorce* 840m


More renders here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=563240


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## lpioe

The GC-2 highway looks like a very nice ride.


Spain must be the country with most highway construction in Europe at the moment, right?


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## ChrisZwolle

lpioe said:


> Spain must be the country with most highway construction in Europe at the moment, right?


Yes, by far. 

What will the number be of this circunvalación of Málaga? AP-7? (which would fit into the idea of 2 parallel motorways along the Mediterranean coast, the A-7 and AP-7)

I heard traffic in Málaga is madness.


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## runi

I found several great pics of the A-67 (U/C) in the Asturias/Cantabria Spanish subforum. Thanks to the forummers who took them, they're simply amazing! :cheers: Just look at this beatiful viaduct: :drool:










You can find all the pics here: :banana:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=17302520&postcount=1557
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=17302535&postcount=1558
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=17302545&postcount=1559


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## ChrisZwolle

Thanks Reivajar. Strange situation. Why not via the A-70 and A-77? Because they are maintained by the government of the Alicante Province? (if i am correct).


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## Reivajar

Chriszwolle said:


> Thanks Reivajar. Strange situation. Why not via the A-70 and A-77? Because they are maintained by the government of the Alicante Province? (if i am correct).


Map xD









Legend..xD :lol:









As you can see motorway and expressway network around Alicante is completely dependent on the Spanish Ministry of Public Works.

The situation is a bit confusing. Formerly, you have to considerer that A-7 toll motorway ended at Campello, en then it became a freeway/expressway/toll-free motorway which bypassed Alicante. It was also A-7 (before numering system change difference between expressway, free motorway and toll motorway was quite confusing). That first free rinroad is the current A-70. It continued to Murcia as A-7 too.

The A-7 from the north (from Valencia) was (if I'm correct) N-340 and there was neither A-7 nor A-77. So, the set formed by A-7 and A-77 was the N-340, and it ended in the A-7 expressway ring (current A-70).

The A-31 from Alicante was the N-330 and it ended in the A-7 expresway ring (current A-70) too.

So, A-70 was formerly the A-7 too, but with the numbering system change Ministry thought that first ringroad has been considerer as urban expressway/motorway. That's whay they changed its number. The A-77 was also part of the Mediterranean axis (N-340 is the national road that runs on the coast from Cadiz to La Junquera -French border-) and you are correct: A-7 (from Murcia), A-70, A-77 and A-7 (former N-340) to Valencia have been considered as part of the same axis, the free expressway on the Mediterranean Corridor. However, according to new numbering system A-77 and A-70 are part of the urban network of Alicante, destined to ditribute local traffic around Alicante and its urban area. To distribute interurban, regional, interegional and international traffic has been built the new ringroad, the AP-7 toll-motorway that continues in the yet built AP-7 (former A-7). The first strecht of this new ring was built before as a expressway branch of A-7 from Murcia. That's why A-7 on the west side has two branches: the first one was part of the original expressway/motorway Mediterranean Coast axis, and the second one was built to direct not local traffic towards AP-7 bypassing Alicante.

I think that A-7 must continue only from Murcia to AP-7 second ring, and A-70 must continue to A-7 directly, and not ending 1,7 kilometers after deviation to the airport.

PS. I'm not sure but I think that the A in A-70 and A-77 doesn't mean Autopista or Autovía but Alicante, as usually in urban acces and rinroads in Spain (M-xx in Madrid, SE-xx in Seville, B-xx in Barcelona, V-xx in Valencia, Z-xx in Saragossa, etc).


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## Nephasto

^^Are you sure that that northern branch is really called A7?
I passed there last summer and it just didn't have any number. I've comentated that on the spanish forum.
But I find it hard to believe that it's also A7. It would be confusing. I think AP7 would be a much more apropriate name for that branch (although it's not tolled). It's just the continuation of AP7 until it merges with A7.
And the fact that it's not tolled it's not a problem. There are many stretches of the AP7 which aren't (a bit to the south, for example).


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## Reivajar

Maybe it' isn't A-7..I'm not sure...according to some maps yes, it is, but..I can assure you.

In some fonts A-7 strecht between Murcia and Alicante ends on A-31 and A-70 junction, (so A-70 ends on A-31 final junction) but it's not possible because according to some documents from the Ministry of Public Works (the more reliable font, no doubt) deviation to the airport is on kilometric point 1,7 of A-70, and this expressway runs from west to east. 

Everything is a bit confusing. Maybe branch that ends at the end of AP-7 ring has no number....I don't know. The best way to know it is cheking kilometric sign posts.


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## Nephasto

Reivajar said:


> Everything is a bit confusing. Maybe branch that ends at the end of AP-7 ring has no number....I don't know. The best way to know it is cheking kilometric sign posts.


:yes:

I have a couple of photo's of that stretch.... no hint on the name though... Maybe there weren't even any kilometric sign posts... I don't know. :dunno:


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## AdemA

too good? :crazy:


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## Nephasto

:scouserd:


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## Booze

Doesn't Alicante have a second brand new toll ring road? Which one is that? AP7? :?


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## Reivajar

A-70: First toll-free ring road.
AP-7 (between El Campello and the A-31): Second (new) tolled ring road.


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## Stifler

We had talked in the past about how large the Spanish network was so I want to share some data. It's a bit outdated but must be the most reliable source from the Government (Spannish Statistical Institute).

First of all, km of Motorways (Autovías and Autopistas) in the Spanish Network. It also includes the amount for every Spanish region.


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## Stifler

Now, km of Autovías











Kilometers of Autopistas


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## Stifler

As you may know, the Spanish network is not only owned by the State. Here you can see the km of Motorways owned by every administration.

Red a cargo del Estado: Network owned by the Spanish State
Red a cargo de las Comunidades Autonomas: Network owned by the Autonomous Regions
Red a cargo de las Diputaciones y Cabildos: Network owned by the County Councils.


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## Bori427

@AdemA:What I mean is that the project looks amazing and specially since Bilbao's population ain't that high and it's roads are not so badly congested as in many other places....


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## Bitxofo

^^Very good work, Stifler. Thanks!
kay:


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## Bori427

Puerto Rico is kinda like Netherlands in that aspect Chris...


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## lpioe

Why did the number of motorway kilometres go back in Catalonia between 2001 and 2002?


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## Stifler

Yeah, I thought the same but forgot to post it.

Maybe lobbies of environmentalist destroying motorways 

Seriously, it might be a change in the methodology to be considered Autovía. Maybe some double-carriageway that don't follow the standards nowadays to be called Autovía (roundabouts, traffic lights, geometry....). But it's odd that it has been mainly focused in Catalonia.


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## ChrisZwolle

Bilbao metropolitan has about 1 million inhabitants. Bilbao has a lot of suburban cities. 

The current A-8 in Bilbao runs through the city on high viaducts. At the same time, some apartment buildings are right beside it, that means some buildings are only a few meters from the Autovía. You also have to keep in mind the A-8 is the only throughfare within the entire region. Other east-west connections are the AP-1 and A-231 (A-12), but those are way too far to the south to form an alternative.










This causes a lot of liveability problems in the neighborhoods, and since it's the only major road in the region, there might be a lot of congestion (i don't know for sure), because the road usually has only 2 or 3 lanes per direction, which is not very much for a city of this size.


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## ChrisZwolle

I think a lot of Catalonian C-roads wich are only dual carriageway used to be called Autovía. I think since the great renumbering of highways, they changed the standard of an Autovía. I guess most major roads (even one lane) used to be considered an Autovía.

That is also why most people don't believe Spain has such a large motorway network, because they think Autovía still is the former standard. They might think when you are nowadays talking about an Autovía, you mostly mean those one lane major highways. 

Though it's incredible to see that they constructed 8.000 kilometer of motorway in 15 years. That's is over 500km a year on average. At the Dutch rate of motorway construction, 8000 kilometers would take us 1379 years to complete


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## ChrisZwolle

Which number does the bypass of Bilbao have? I can't find it on the map nor Google Earth. the road starts just east of Galdakao at the AP-8, and runs parallel from the N-637 to Erandio at the BI-637, where it heads southwest to Barakaldo at the A-8. It's the northern bypass of Bilbao.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, i hate unnecessary image quoting.


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## Booze

Some arials near Mallorca's airport

Ma-15 (2x2 double lane road, not highway)









http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=506091255&size=l

Ma-19 (3x2 / 2x2) and airport's inner road (3x1 / 2x1, only one sense link)









http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1484354273&size=l

Airport link


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## Bitxofo

Reivajar said:


> :lol:
> 
> The most famous commies in Madrid. Even Pedro Almodóvar has filmed there. :lol:


Film:
What have I done to deserve this? :yes:


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## willo

A3 inside Madrid city


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## Reivajar

From the Cerro Almodóvar (not related to Pedro Almodóvar :lol, isn't it?
You can see the A-3 and the M-40 partially too because it's the first bridge over the A-3.


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## ChrisZwolle

I heard the A-67 bridge is almost ready. when will it be opened?


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## Cicerón

Some pictures of the A-67 by Carabaza and Alsajano.



















The unpaved area is a "zona para frenado de emergencia" (lane for emergency braking).


















Pesquera tunnels:









:lol:









Pesquera viaduct:


















Pujayo viaduct:









Montabliz viaduct:




























See more: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=463681&page=80


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## radi6404

This looks quite awesome.


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## wyqtor

radi6404 said:


> This looks quite awesome.


I was just about to say the same thing.

¡Viva España!


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## x-type

Cicerón said:


> :lol:


:lol::lol::lol:


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## willo

Reivajar said:


> From the Cerro Almodóvar (not related to Pedro Almodóvar :lol, isn't it?
> You can see the A-3 and the M-40 partially too because it's the first bridge over the A-3.


exactly


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## Stifler

Chriszwolle said:


> I heard the A-67 bridge is almost ready. when will it be opened?


In mid-February.

It will be the highest bridge in Spain (145 m height) and sixth in Europe.

BTW, as usual awesome report by carabaza and alsajano :applause:


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## Mateusz

Shiny crashbareers !


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## picassoborseli

Yes thanks to Carabaza and Alsajano. 

Nice pics of the Montabliz viaduct! It was a beautiful day to take them!

When will the A-67 will be finished?


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## Stifler

picassoborseli said:


> When will the A-67 will be finished?


The whole motorway in the early 2009 if they don't have to face new problems.

There are still 70 km to be opened, but around 30 km will be finished soon.


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## lpioe

Where will it be 3-laned? It doesn't seem to cross any big cities.


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## Stifler

I guess it will only have 3 lanes close to some exits and in some places with big slopes. It's typical in some Spanish motorways to use a 3x2 configuration in that kind of streches to avoid traffic jams caused by lorries.

Between Santander and Torrelavega, traffic is already pretty dense so they will build a third lane in the short term.


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## Nephasto

Those 3 lanes stretches in the pictures are in big slopes, going up, as Stifler said.
Not 2x3 though. Just 2+3 (3 lanes only going up).
And that's typical not only on Spanish motorways.  
Happens all the time here in Portugal too for example, and in other countries as well, when there are big slopes... It's comon around here (iberian peninsula) because there are lots of slopes (many mountains).


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## ChrisZwolle

It's called a climbing lane


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## Stifler

Damn, I wanted to write 3+2. Not 3x2 of course.


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## Maxx☢Power

timmy- brissy said:


> there great but not the best in europe i would say london or paris or barcelone in europe and no way in the world because cities like tokyo,la,sydney,toronto and even joburg.


Madrid definitely has the best motorways of any city in Europe, and among the best in the world.. London barely has any motorways at all. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.


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## Stifler

Bitxofo said:


> All modes?
> 
> I disagree...


Not the best in every mode, but for sure the best as a whole.

Metro and motorway network are among the best in the world, and buses and commuter trains are fine.


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## Bitxofo

Chriszwolle said:


> What mode of transport isn't good in Madrid?


Buses and tramways are much worse than in other European cities...
:dunno:
Metro and highways are OK.
:yes:


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## runi

Bitxofo said:


> Buses and tramways are much worse than in other European cities...
> :dunno:
> Metro and highways are OK.
> :yes:


You don't seem to be too objective, metro and highways just OK? They're impressive! :cheers: I wish we could have even half of that in my city or elsewhere in my country :nuts: 

I don't think buses are bad at all, there're lots of them and take you everywhere. The tramways are almost new, they might not work as well as expected but it's nice they have decided to install them again. And don't forget the extensive commuter train network, which I liked very much too 

Overall we can say Madrid has a very good transportation system. Of course it has some problems, like any other big city, but it's a fact they're doing an excellent work


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## Nuriarami

..


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## Stifler

Some awesome pics taken by *alsajano* in A-67

General panorama and Montalbiz bridge


alsajano said:


>


Strech between Corrales and Molledo


alsajano said:


>


Montalbiz bridge


alsajano said:


>



Load testing in Pujayo bridge


alsajano said:


>


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## ChrisZwolle

Massive pileup at the A-42 Toledo - Madrid, over 100 vehicles involved


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## arriaca

^^

Fortunately, only 68 wounded


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## SkyLerm

^^My cousin was one of 'em, fortunately he's now at home.


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## Bitxofo

^^Oh sorry!

What happened?
:?


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## gincan

Looks like fog, I read an intresting article about European drivers and their mentality geography wise. According to a survey among truckdrivers the worst drivers i europe you find in the Mediterranean countries, specifically Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal. Typically anarchistic drivers that
don't respect driving rules are much more common in the south of europe than in the north. Drunk driving is also more commonplace despite the fact that north europeans ie Swedes and Finns consume more alcohol.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Yes, statistics prove that. Though Malta is the safest country, but it's so tiny. The Netherlands is the safest country on earth that has some more dimensions than a city state or a small island. Portugal, Italy and eastern European countries are generally unsafer, though the chances you are involved into an accident are minimal. 

But you have to see this in perspective, it also depends on geography, the number of motorways, how busy the traffic is etc. 

I read in a 1963 traffic engineering magazine, that in France, in that time during the summer, over 60 people got killed on the roads daily. But France had the least developed road network of the EEC at that time (EEC = EU nowadays).


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## Skylandman

It would be interesting to have an updated data with the number of fatal accidents during the last 10 year per country or something similar. Some EU countries suchs as France, Portugal or Spain has seen how killed people on their roads drop drastically in the recent years.

As for Spain. in 1996 over 4.000 people died on the roads, 3.516 in 2004 and 2.741 in 2007.


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## Stifler

Here you have an interesting chart about this issue.










The low number of deaths in the Netherlands is impressive, as well as the high rates in the Baltics.


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## OriK

gincan said:


> Looks like fog, I read an intresting article about European drivers and their mentality geography wise. According to a survey among truckdrivers the worst drivers i europe you find in the Mediterranean countries, specifically Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal. Typically anarchistic drivers that
> don't respect driving rules are much more common in the south of europe than in the north. Drunk driving is also more commonplace despite the fact that north europeans ie Swedes and Finns consume more alcohol.


I was on the A-42's fog and I don't think that irresponsibility was the cause, I was driving at 40Km/h and I had to stop sharply because I didn't see a car stopped in front of me (I didn't hit it for some cm). Fortunately I wasn't involved in the accidents (there was 3 accidents with ~11km of cars each one), I had to stop only for allow the firemen move to the other carriageway.

A fire truck and some ambulances were also involved in the accidents.

 Bye^2


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## x-type

EST, LAT and LTU are at the top (beside POR), i've heard it allready, but i don't know why. probably poor roads.


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## ChrisZwolle

Maybe a lot of drunk driving. Vodka is more usual there.


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## Rebasepoiss

Chriszwolle said:


> Maybe a lot of drunk driving. Vodka is more usual there.





x-type said:


> EST, LAT and LTU are at the top (beside POR), i've heard it allready, but i don't know why. probably poor roads.


The main reason is actually driving error, not drunk driving or poor roads.(I'd say that roads in the Baltics are generally better than in Poland) Also there isn't enough police control. Most of the old EU has had speeding cameras for years. We are introdoucing these just this year. But you can't say that the government isn't doing anything. From 2008-2011 Estonia will invest almost 80 million Euros for the improvement of traffic safety, which is quite a lot for a country this small.


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## picassoborseli

Maybe I think that there are more reasons why in the Baltic countries the amount is so high:

1) drunk people take the car
2) not respecting speed limits
3) dangerous sections
4) bad state of roads (asphalt/concrete/bad signs/wrong speed limits)

But the figures presented in the chart don't say anything about the cause of the high amount of deaths by car accidents.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Also driving culture is very young. During Soviet occupation there were very few private cars, because you needed a permit to buy a car. A good example of it is the number of public transport users in Tallinn. In 1990 it was 80%. Now it's 30% or less.

BTW, only aroung 20% of accidents are caused by druck driving.


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## ChrisZwolle

A-2? ^^^


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## x-type

Chriszwolle said:


> Yeah, Barcelona has done a pretty good job on their motorways ensuring the city's atmosphere will not be destroyed. The B-10 (southern beltway) is a good example too.


yes, Ronda Litoral is an art because it runs next to the beach, and doesn't ruin atmosphere at all. or at Mirador del Colon it tuns through centre of the city, and again - you don't feel it



Chriszwolle said:


> A-2? ^^^


you can see those bulls all around the Spain 
but i would like to know where is that one where "Jamon Jamon" was made  if i remember well, the cars had Zaragoza plates.


----------



## Stifler

x-type said:


> you can see those bulls all around the Spain


Yeah, they are almost everywhere and has become a symbol of the Spanish roads. They were installed as an advertisement for Osborne company in the 60s. Twenty years ago, these kind of ads were banned but people decided to keep them as a kind of cultural heritage.

Unfortunately they have suffered acts of vandalism and many were destroyed, but 90 of them are still 'alive'.



x-type said:


> i would like to know where is that one where "Jamon Jamon" was made if i remember well, the cars had Zaragoza plates.


Your memmory is good, as that film was shoot in Los Monegros desert (between Zaragoza and Huesca). There are 6 bulls in Aragón, but I can't remeber which one it was.

BTW, Nobody could have imagined Bardem would reach what he finally did.


----------



## x-type

Stifler said:


> BTW, Nobody could have imagined Bardem would reach what he finally did.


:lol:


----------



## Stifler

A week ago, Grado bypass was opened so 60% of A-63 (Oviedo-La Espina) is already on service. In 2010 it's expected to be finished as a whole.

Here you have some pics made by *adcava* from his trip between Oviedo and Grado, where A-63 finish nowadays.



adcava said:


> Desde Oviedo, el recorrido por la A-63 es muy cómodo y rápido:
> 
> San Claudio la fondo:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enlace de Trubia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Falsos túneles entre los viaductos 1 y 2 del Nora
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Túneles de Priañes desde el viaducto 2 del Nora
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bajada en Llera, en el tramo desdoblado hace poco
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viaducto del río Sama
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El trazado sigue hasta los Túneles de Peñaflor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Y llegamos a Grao en un cuarto de hora
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El último viaducto del la autovía operativa


After that, the motorway is still under construction



adcava said:


>


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Thanks for the pics. Spain is so beautiful


----------



## Booze

God, you desperately need some rain


----------



## runi

Booze said:


> God, you desperately need some rain


You know, having almost 20ºC day after day isn't normal in February :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Saves you a lot on heating 

What kind of weather can i expect in central Spain in early September? Is it still too hot to drive without airconditioning?


----------



## Dinivan

Chriszwolle said:


> Saves you a lot on heating
> 
> What kind of weather can i expect in central Spain in early September? Is it still too hot to drive without airconditioning?


Yes, you "need" aircon at least from June until the end of September


----------



## Stifler

Booze said:


> God, you desperately need some rain


Yeah, it has been the driest autumn I remember.



Chriszwolle said:


> What kind of weather can i expect in central Spain in early September? Is it still too hot to drive without airconditioning?


In my opinion in September and June it's bearable. In July and August, not.

But with this changing climate who knows how our summer will be.


----------



## Stifler

By the way, in this motorway they used a construction system not really usual here. First they built the first carriageway and while it was on service (working as a 1x1 road) they built the other one.

The reason might have been the poor route of the old Nacional. It took around 35 min to drive from Oviedo to Grado, while now 12 min with A-63.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What about those extremely narrow emergency lanes? If you get a flat tire, there's no room to pull over.


----------



## Stifler

Yeah, it seems even narrow for Spanish standards (which aren't known for being the widest in Europe).

I have just checked the features of the motorway, and it is 2.5m. wide the exterior emergency lane and 1m. the interior one.


----------



## Nephasto

^^That's the standard in Spain (2.5m for the exterior shoulder), although they kind of look narrower.

But it must be an illusion caused because there are always gardrails.


----------



## Booze

Chriszwolle said:


> Saves you a lot on heating
> 
> What kind of weather can i expect in central Spain in early September? Is it still too hot to drive without airconditioning?


Early september is still very hot in the mediterranean. You might need air con even in october, but that depends on the hour of the day and weather.



Chriszwolle said:


> What about those extremely narrow emergency lanes? If you get a flat tire, there's no room to pull over.


They seem normal


----------



## Rebasepoiss

runi said:


> You know, having almost 20ºC day after day isn't normal in February :nuts:


We have around 20ºC here in the summerr, but I still think it's unbearable without AC during sunny days.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

If i read correctly on the Spanish forum, the final piece of the A23 opened today. That means there is a full motorway from Huesca via Zaragoza and Teruel to Valencia! :cheers:


----------



## Aokromes

You read correctly


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

Rebasepoiss said:


> We have around 20ºC here in the summer, but I still think it's unbearable without AC during sunny days.


If you think 20ºC is unbearable without air conditioning, you really have to try to deal with 44ºC for several days in a row... without air conditioning :lol: Ah... California in 2002, Ford Festiva and no air conditioning... hno:


----------



## Cicerón

Here you have a complete article about the reforms of the "autovías de primera generación" (the oldest _autovías_). There are some pictures made when these _autovías_ were built.

http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/D1D3355F-49A7-4AC0-BABF-3DF0F9D3B6F0/33219/Fe32_37.pdf


It's a plan to improve the A-1, A-2 until Zaragoza, A-3 & A-31, A-4 first, and then the A-2 until Barcelona, A-5 and A-6. I think that they should repair the A-62 between Burgos and Valladolid, it's a very old highway too 
More info: http://www.urbanity.es/foro/showpost.php?p=127199&postcount=93


----------



## Stifler

Chriszwolle said:


> If i read correctly on the Spanish forum, the final piece of the A23 opened today. That means there is a full motorway from Huesca via Zaragoza and Teruel to Valencia!


Right. That was one of the most important routes without direct motorway connection.

The construction pace in A-23 has been pretty high in the last years. More than 50km a year.


----------



## timmy- brissy

Chriszwolle said:


> Thanks for the pics. Spain is so beautiful



Yeah spain is brilliant and the road quality of some of the roads are top notch .


----------



## madao

yeah when we go to morocco i always enjoy the roads in spain the beautifull mountains

last year we went not via madrid but via barcalona and alicante beautifull you see the sea from far away 

and why do you see so much abondened cars on the side of the road who've had an accident
i always thought they left it there to warn the people about the dangerous higways between the mountains

only thing i dont like about the highways is if you want to get on i dont know the name for it in english but chris or any dutchman would like to help me (invoegstroken) are very short


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ acceleration lane or merging lane


----------



## Stifler

madao said:


> and why do you see so much abondened cars on the side of the road who've had an accident
> i always thought they left it there to warn the people about the dangerous higways between the mountains


 On the side of the highways??

No, we don't use such a shocking traffic campaign. I guess you simply happened to cross Spain in the peak days of summer (with the largest amount of accidents as well), so breakdown vans aren't enough to satisfy the demand. I also remember a long strike in that sector a couple of summers ago, so maybe you got that impression back then.

What it actually happens pretty often and annoys me a lot are abandoned cars parked in the city center for months with a big poster: 'For sale, call xxx'. 



madao said:


> only thing i dont like about the highways is if you want to get on i dont know the name for it in english but chris or any dutchman would like to help me (invoegstroken) are very short


 Yeah, in many stretches I don't like them either, although in the new motorways situation has improved a lot.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Stifler said:


> What it actually happens pretty often and annoys me a lot are abandoned cars parked in the city center for months with a big poster: 'For sale, call xxx'.


Yeah, that used to be a problem too in Rotterdam. Now they have signs that do not allow selling cars on the streets, and they just tow the vehicle away.


----------



## Booze

I've never seen an abandoned car on a highway :?


----------



## OriK

I've seen abandoned cars from highways, but never inside the highways (but near them).

Bye!


----------



## picassoborseli

madao said:


> only thing i dont like about the highways is if you want to get on i dont know the name for it in english but chris or any dutchman would like to help me (invoegstroken) are very short



I think those acceleration lanes in Spain are smaller because the amount of traffic used to be lower before. Accelerarion lanes in The Netherlands are very long because of the high amount of traffic. In Spain on several routes there is not many traffic, so you can easely accelarate on the highway.

I agree that most of them should be redesigned or must be longer, because some of them are dangerous.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Booze said:


> I've never seen an abandoned car on a highway :?


You should visit Belgium then 

Especially in Wallonia, i have seen a lot of abandoned cars on the motorway. I also seen someone missing the exit, and driving in reverse on the through lanes :nuts:


----------



## Bitxofo

Booze said:


> I've never seen an abandoned car on a highway :?


There was 1 in Autovia de Castelldefels in El Prat de Llobregat until 1 year ago, but out from the pavement.


----------



## Cicerón

madao said:


> yeah when we go to morocco i always enjoy the roads in spain the beautifull mountains
> 
> last year we went not via madrid but via barcalona and alicante beautifull you see the sea from far away
> 
> and why do you see so much abondened cars on the side of the road who've had an accident
> i always thought they left it there to warn the people about the dangerous higways between the mountains
> 
> only thing i dont like about the highways is if you want to get on i dont know the name for it in english but chris or any dutchman would like to help me (invoegstroken) are very short


Well, if you took the A-1&A-4 (via Madrid) or the AP-7 (via Barcelona), no wonder you saw short exit/acceleration lanes; they're three of the oldest highways in Spain. However, the A-1 and A-4 will be improved soon, as I wrote some posts before you. There is also a plan for widening the AP-7 in Catalonia (PDF).

As for the abandoned cars, I've never seen any. Probably it's common in the summer as Stifler said.


----------



## madao

Cicerón said:


> Well, if you took the A-1&A-4 (via Madrid) or the AP-7 (via Barcelona), no wonder you saw short exit/acceleration lanes; they're three of the oldest highways in Spain. However, the A-1 and A-4 will be improved soon, as I wrote some posts before you. There is also a plan for widening the AP-7 in Catalonia (PDF).
> 
> As for the abandoned cars, I've never seen any. Probably it's common in the summer as Stifler said.


aaaah oke, i see thank you for the when are they gonna begin with improving?

further spanish roads are great i hope soon the moroccan will get like in spainkay:


----------



## OriK

madao said:


> aaaah oke, i see thank you for the when are they gonna begin with improving?


There is a lot of work to do so it won't be completed soon, but I think that some parts are already (or very soon) being reformed.

I suggest you to take A-1 or A-2 till Madrid, then M-50 till R-5 (I think it's free if you are going to get the AP-41 because both have the same toll company) then AP-41 (~6 or 7€) till Toledo, then CM-42 (or A-42 in the first kms from AP-41) and then A-4. Possibly this route has more kms but R-5/AP-41/CM-42 are very new and without traffic (you can go alone in the autopista or autovía for several kms)

Bye!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Cantabria and Asturias!

Viaducto de los Santos (Antes de ensanchar)










Viaducto de Navia



















Viaducto de Canero



















Puente del Pintor Fierros (o Arco de la Regenta)




























Viaducto de San Pedro de la Ribera (antes de ensanchar)




























Viaducto del Nalón





































Viaducto de Ferrería










Viaductos de Raíces (N-632, Variante de Avilés, en primer plano, la A-8 al fondo)










A-66

Viaducto de Serín










Puente sobre el Nalón










A-64

Viaductos de Lieres










AS-17

Puente atirantado de Sama










Viaducto de El Entrego










:cheers::cheers:


----------



## wyqtor

Chriszwolle said:


> Cantabria and Asturias!
> 
> Viaducto de los Santos (Antes de ensanchar)


:nuts: :cheers:

I've never seen anything like this anywhere else!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's the A8 near Ribadeo


----------



## Stifler

Nice pics. All of them are taken in Asturias. The geography favour the construction of loads of bridges and tunnel, so we have quite a lot.

A8 is not the best example of motorway planning though. 10/15 years ago they improved the old Nacional road building a dozen of big bridges and now most of them cannot be expanded to reach motorway standards so they have to build new ones parallel to the Nacional road.

One of the few bridges expanded









The whole A8 should be completed by 2009, but enviromental and NIMBYs problems have delayed a couple of stretches until 2010 or 2011.


----------



## Zibou

*Missing link IP-3/A-52 northern portugal*

Hello all,

Does anyone know when the missing link between the IP-3 in Portugal and the Autovia 52 in Spain will be built ? For the moment, the IP-3 comes to a crashing halt at the border, and there's about 10 km of national road before catching up the A-52.
* Map click here
* Google Earth view

Another question, this one about the A-8 : how far west is it supposed to go ?

Thanks for your answer.


----------



## Stifler

Zibou said:


> Does anyone know when the missing link between the IP-3 in Portugal and the Autovia 52 in Spain will be built ? For the moment, the IP-3 comes to a crashing halt at the border, and there's about 10 km of national road before catching up the A-52.


It's already under construction and will be named A-75.

Last news I read expected it to be open in 2009.



Zibou said:


> Another question, this one about the A-8 : how far west is it supposed to go ?


It will cover the whole Cantabric coast, so it will go from French border in Irún to Baamonde (province of Lugo). There you can take A-6 to reach La Coruña.


----------



## Zibou

Michelin hasn't got its Spain online maps updated since 2006... but thanks for your answers !!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is there already a 2008 road atlas from Michelin for Spain/Portugal?


----------



## Cicerón

I've found these videos on Youtube. I hope you like it:

M-30 from A-5 to A-1:





A-2 leaving Barcelona:


----------



## Nacho_82

hey the first video is mine 

I think I already posted it in this thread but I can't really remember, so nevermind


----------



## Majestic

That Madrid's tunnel with undeground interchanges is simply stunning. Boston's Big Dig falls short :cheers:


----------



## OriK

Yes, this underground Autovía in Madrid is the most used in Spain, it's a circle under Madrid (there are still a part overground in the north of the city), there are two twing tunnels (one per direction) with 2 levels each one, the one that you have seen is for normal traffic and the other with 2 lanes in each tunnel (under the other level) is exclusive for emergency vehicles (ambulances, firemen, police, etc...), there are emergency exits each few meters (in fact that tunnels are of the most secure in Europe) and there are mobile phone coverage in all the tunnels (and they are working to provide GPS coverage, but i don't know if it's possible), there are also some other tunnels that connects directly this autovía with other autovías y autopistas and some parts of the city and there are are other 2 twin tunnels in the south that are a shortcut to avoid having to make the circle complete (less time and km if you don't have to use the furder south connections) and is planned to do the same on the north.

All the walls are painted with different colors (one per each tunnel) and numbers so if there is a problem you can call to the emergency's numer and they can know exactly where are you.

Bye bye


----------



## Majestic

^^
Dedicated level for emergency vehicles? Wow, the budget must have been huge :eek2:


----------



## OriK

Yes, the budget was a bit less than 9.000 million euros only for the part already constructed. But the new part will be constructed parallel to the "Plan Chamartín" (a plan to move the Chamartin train station, one of the most importants stations in Spain and its railways to the underground and sell the freed land (in the center of Madrid) for build private skyscrappers and the money will be used in the M-30 and in the new Chamartín station.

Bye bye!


----------



## Xabi

*AP-8 between Aritzeta and Orio. Note that third lane is under construction. Video by BPT.*





*Malmasín tunnel (AP-8, Bilbao). Video by BPT.*

^^Look the light signals to help the driver to respect the speed limit.





*N-I (Etxegarate).Video by BPT.*





*N-I (Etxegarate).Video by BPT.*


----------



## Booze

Majestic said:


> ^^
> Dedicated level for emergency vehicles? Wow, the budget must have been huge :eek2:


And so has the city's debt XD

I really love to drive through the underground M30


----------



## Stifler

Some may know we have Elections this weekend. It's time for nosenses and absurd promises, but also to see many motorway stretches being opened. :rock:

Here you have a list of them from 1stJan to 7th Mar, only for the National Network.

*A-7:* 4.9km
*A-8:* 2.8km + 3.8km + 5.3km
*A-23:* 27.8km
*A-40:* 16.8km
*A-41:* 9.1km
*A-45:* 13.5km
*A-66:* 26.5km + 15km + 8.3km + 14.4km
*A-67:* 11.9km
*CA-35:* 2.3km

*TOTAL: 162.4km*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What can we expect now the PSOE has won the elections?


----------



## Stifler

Fortunately there is a consensus between the two major parties when it comes to infraestructure, so the situation is pretty much the same no matter who rules the country. Only some tiny leftist parties are against motorways.

About PSOE's projects, they already approved PEIT back in 2005 so there you have a general idea of the future Spanish network. According to that, in 2020 Spain is planned to have 15,000km of motorways and 95% of the population is expected to live at 30km from a motorway in the worst scenario.


----------



## ren0312

One thing I can never figure out is why are European cities filled with grafittis? Is it some form of counterculturre like the hippie movement, and are the authorities and city residents OK with these things?


----------



## Verso

ren0312 said:


> One thing I can never figure out is why are European cities filled with grafittis? Is it some form of counterculturre like the hippie movement, and are the authorities and city residents OK with these things?


How does this question fit in here?


----------



## Skylandman

*some pics from flickr*

Autovía del Camino, Zizur, Navarra









A6 to Madrid









A-66 Salamanca-Cáceres 









Somewhere in Galacia









A-52 concello de Sandiás (Ourense)









Autovía del Mediterráneo???









Autovía Minera from Seana









unknown









Three Bridges (1860-1990-2008) ........... Oold N-323 ( Bailén - Motril )









unknown


----------



## Mateusz

What is the status of M50, autopista or autovia ? What about building northenr part of M50. And what about new massive Madrid ring M60 ?


----------



## Skylandman

*some more*

A92???









Autovía del Norte, Basque Country









unknown









Autovia in works close to the AVE (HST) line U/C. unknown place









unknown









AP53, probably the less used motorway in Spain









AP9









AP7









Autopista del Vallés, Close to Bellaterra, Barcelona









Somewhere in Cantabria


----------



## Skylandman

*and the last row*

unknown









A6









close to Las Rozas









B10???









M40









Somewhere close to Madrid









M50 is a urban Highway (Autovia), i currently don´t know when will they close the ring, but it my be hard to do it as it has to go through a quite importan natural park









Somewhere in BCN









M30 









M40 saturday morning









M40


----------



## willo

Skylandman said:


> Autovía del Mediterráneo???


That's A-7 (autovía del mediterráneo) at Fuengirola,Málaga


----------



## Stifler

Chriszwolle said:


> I think camping may be even cheaper, like 10 - 20 euro's per night.


Yeah, I forgot you Dutch love campings so much . I went to one of them last July and I would say 60% of the people there were Dutch.

And you are right. Between 10 and 20€ is the normal fare there. I paid 12€ and the place was breathtaking. A good and cheap way to park your car as well, since it's not easy in the city center.

http://www.campings.net/ has a large amount of them and it's available in Dutch.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Stifler said:


> Yeah, I forgot you Dutch love campings so much . I went to one of them last July and *I would say 60% of the people there were Dutch.*


I hate those campings


----------



## OriK

Driving to the cities that you are going to visit may be nice, but driving inside this cities may be a waste of time (in Madrid it's impossible to park, in Toledo you must be an expert to drive there, etc...). I recommend you to leave the car somewhere and then going by metro or cercanías (Madrid) or walking (Toledo).

They are hard to find, but it's possible to get a really cheap night in a hotel in the center of big cities.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I was thinking of a camping somewhere in the suburbs of Madrid, drive to a metrostation, and head with the metro into Madrid. But i also like to scout some of the Autopista's around Madrid


----------



## OriK

^^ If you are a motorway's tourist I recommend you visiting the south M-30 hahahahaha. I've heard that there is a nice camping in Getafe (I think that is this: http://www.campingalpha.com/b7_en.htm) it's near Madrid (in fact there are metro and cercanías in Getafe).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I was thinking about this trip:


----------



## Stifler

A really nice trip from the point of view of a motorway fan 

A-1 is along with A-6 the best radial motorway and go through some high places, then you try the awesome Madrid network and go East to drive through the new A-66 to reach Sevilla. Then you cross Andalucia at A-92 (the stretch close to Granada is spectacular) and get A-7 to drive most of the Mediterranean coast. Furthermore you go through many diverse landscapes, most of them pretty different from what you can see near the Netherlands.

Really complete. In terms of cities visited I would try to make a small stop in Salamanca and Toledo but you can't see everything . My beloved North-West has some interesting motorways as well (AP-66 is one of the top) but the route is already great as it is.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I see there is a road up to the Mulhacen in the Sierra Nevada. Is traffic allowed there?


----------



## Stifler

Chriszwolle said:


> I see there is a road up to the Mulhacen in the Sierra Nevada. Is traffic allowed there?


Only until you are around 2600m a.s.l. After that, there is a parking and you can only keep going up by bike or on foot. It is said to be the highest road in Europe.

The top of Mulhacen is around 3500m a.s.l.


----------



## OriK

Bohadilla del Monte isn't a very turistic place... I don't know if you can go by car to the Mulhacén... I think that if the weather is good you won't have problems.

I propose you this for going to Toledo. The motorway from Toledo to the A-5 isn't finished yet but it isn't a very long way. I'he added some points of nice places to visit in your way (I forget some like Ávila and Trujillo)



P.S: You have some toll motorways in your map!


----------



## Skylandman

Another round

La Madroa tunnel, AP9









Close to A Coruña









Highway b/t Asturias and Galicia









A381 Jerez - Los Barrios









Córdoba to Málaga A45









AP7 Málaga









One of the worst parts of the Spanish highways network, hopefully to be removed soon: Despeñaperros narrow pass. Well this is the main linking point b/t South and Central Spain. It´s just shameful.









In this pic we can appreciate one way laying through the bottom close to the railway while the opposite way comes through the upper part of the slop, notice the white lorries.









Ronda de Málaga









A7 Almeria









I tend to think it´s A92, but no sure









Autovía Jerez-Los Barrios


----------



## Skylandman

SE30









Autovía del Mediterráneo Bridge linking Murcia and Alicante









???









Not sure if this picture was taken from the AP7









Alicante as seen from the AP7









A3









Also A3









E20









Somewhere in the Canary Islands probably TF5









La Laguna, Tenerife









Close to Barcelona









A12









A15 Navarra


----------



## picassoborseli

Chriszwolle said:


> I was thinking about this trip:


Chris you realy have to see Toledo! So From Madrid I should take the A-42 to Toledo in stead of the A-5.


----------



## RV

Old N-340 in Fuengirola








AP-7








Benalmadena pueblo-village near Malaga
















By-passing Torremolinos








Commieblock in Torremolinos








AP-7, signage towards Malaga airport








Buildings near motorway ramps








Some abandoned building








Old N-340 near Malaga towards the airport
























Airport road


----------



## Cicerón

^^ The N-340 looks crappy in the first pic :S


Well, the following pictures were taken by the forumer Calabrese in a trip from Málaga to Córdoba (A-45).



Calabrese said:


> Fotos de ayer de la *autovía A-45* Málaga - Córdoba:
> 
> Término municipal de Casabermeja.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nos acercamos al alto de las Pedrizas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alto de las Pedrizas. Enlace A-45 y A-92 M.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pasamos el alto de las Pedrizas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pendiente pronunciada y señales de zona de frenado de emergencia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nos acercamos a Antequera.
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> Enlace en Antequera, A-45 y A-92.
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> Enlace en Antequera, A-45 y A-92.
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> Tramo Antequera - Benamejí, recientemente puesto en servicio.
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> Tramo Benamejí - Encinas Reales.
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> Autovía en construcción en unos 20 km.
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> 
> No estoy seguro, pero por lo que he leído, parece ser que en este tramo las calzadas se separan y esto vendría a ser las obras del viaducto que salva el Genil en la calzada Málaga -> Córdoba. ¿Alguien puede confirmar?
> 
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> Hay que cruzar la travesía de Encinas reales. El atasco es monumental.
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> Tramo Encinas Reales - Lucena.
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> Volvemos a la autovía.





Calabrese said:


> Fotos de ayer de la *autovía A-45* Málaga - Córdoba:
> 
> Tramo Encinas Reales - Lucena.
> 
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> Nos acercamos a Lucena.
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> Por aquí anda la silla gigante - edificio de oficinas. :lol:
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> Enlace de Cabra.
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> Enlace de Montilla.
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> La campiña cordobesa.
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> 
> Por aquí tenía que venir una foto de un pórtico anunciando en enlace del pueblo de Jhon Pardolta, pero en la selección se me habrá pasado. Imagino que el enlace puede ser éste.
> 
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> Córdoba a 13 km.
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> Fin de la A-45. Nos incorporamos a la A-4.
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> Zonas industriales de córdoba.
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> Tomamos la salida a Córdoba. Carril de desaceleración en el lado izquierdo.
> 
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> Puente atirantado en Córdoba.


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## Rusonaldo

great foto. beautiful country!!!


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## Booze

^^ My grandma came from this town :yes:


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## timmy- brissy

To many good roads.


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## arriaca

A crazy news 



El Pais said:


> *Una manada de toros sueltos desata el caos en la autopista AP-6 en Segovia.*
> *
> A herd of bulls loose unleashes chaos in the AP-6 in Segovia*
> 
> _
> Testigos en la zona aseguran que los animales han embestido a los coches. La vía ha estado cortada a la altura de El Espinar_
> 
> ELPAÍS.com / AGENCIAS - Madrid - 29/03/2008
> 
> 
> Un grupo de toros sueltos ha desatado el caos en la autopista AP-6 en la localidad segoviana de El Espinar. La vía, muy transitada el fin de semana por excursionistas procedentes de Madrid, ha sido cortada durante varios minutos en ambos sentidos a la altura del kilómetro 64. Testigos presenciales, en declaraciones al programa Gran Vía de la Cadena SER, han asegurado que los animales han embestido a varios coches.
> 
> 
> La Guardia Civil ha recibido un avisó a las 11.30 horas alertando de la presencia de reses bravas en al autopista.
> 
> Minutos después, los agentes llegaron al lugar, acordonaron la zona y cortaron la circulación en ese tramo. A las 12.15 horas todavía se encontraban en la vía intentando llevar los toros a su redil, agruparlos y apartarlos de la carretera. Los agentes intentan localizar al dueño de la finca.
> 
> La Guardia Civil ha procedido a cortar el tráfico de la autopista, tanto los dos carriles dirección Madrid como los tres en dirección A Coruña, una situación que se ha prolongado durante casi 40 minutos y que ha provocado retenciones y unos cinco kilómetros de atascos en sentido salida, según ha indicado un portavoz de la DGT.
> 
> La AP-6 ha vuelto a abrirse al tráfico una vez que la Guardia Civil ha retirado a los toros de la calzada, si bien alrededor del mediodía aún permanecía cortado un carril en sentido A Coruña y se registraban retenciones en esa misma dirección.
> 
> "Parecía un encierro", ha declarado un conductor atrapado en el atasco a la Cadena SER. "He visto a un toro embestir a un Ford negro", ha declarado.



http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espa.../Segovia/elpepuespmad/20080329elpepunac_3/Tes


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## ChrisZwolle

Those bulls probably saw one of those bull signs and wanted to go to it


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## Booze

Chriszwolle said:


> I was thinking about this trip:


Such a pity you're not taking a ferry to the balearics :lol:


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## ABRob

Chriszwolle said:


> I was thinking about this trip:
> http://i31.tinypic.com/28247qr.png


Oh, I'm planing a tour with a friend in Summer (he's driving and I'm taking the (road)photos ) and our route will be similar, with some differences:








We'll take the road roads instead:
1. We'll pass Madrid via Burgos - Salamanca - Cáceres
2. Maybe we do a trip to Portugal
3. And we'll drive to Tarifa to take a ferry to Morocco

It semms like we have the same intensions for our routes to Spain: One way the direct way via Bordeaux and the other way with a visit at Millau. 


What's the status of the A-7 betwee Alicante and Valencia?
Is the Alcoy-Bypass finnished? Are there any cross-town links?

And is there any web-site with the AP-tolls?


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## arriaca

Plan your route on this page (also included is the cost of tolls)

www.viamichelin.es


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## ChrisZwolle

They've added new imagery of Zaragoza. The Z-40 seems about finished.


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## Nephasto

Indeed!!

The 1cm=10km and 1cm=4km map for Portugal and Spain was updated! 
2008 version now! :banana: :cucumber:


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ You mean the Michelin Road Atlas?


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## Nephasto

^^Yes!


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## ChrisZwolle

New ringroad of Sevilla?










AP-7 around Alicante seems finished










Which road is this U/C southwest of Valencia? A-7?










New A-22 between Huesca and Lleida


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## Nephasto

Chriszwolle said:


> New ringroad of Sevilla?


Indeed. It will be the SE-40.




Chriszwolle said:


> AP-7 around Alicante seems finished


It is. :yes:


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## Cicerón

Chriszwolle said:


> Which road is this U/C southwest of Valencia? A-7?


It's the new CV-50, another ringroad for Valencia.


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## Cicerón

I was trying to edit my previous post here (I mean the one written today at 2.45 PM) but when I press the "edit" button it says "Invalid thread specified". Then I refresh the page and my post suddenly disappears, I do it again and it appears, and it doesn't even appear in the list of threads opened in the subforum :nuts: So it would be fine if someone could confirm that my posts can be readed, otherwise I'll suppose that my posts cannot be readed.

Well, this is was I wanted to post. More maps of highways under construction from Viamichelin. I selected what I consider to be the most important stretches u/c.

A-50 Ávila-Salamanca. A fast link between Portugal and the Spanish East to Madrid and the Mediterranean:









A-8 in Asturias and Galicia. The last part of the A-8, which crosses from East to West the northern coast of Spain:









A-67 in Cantabria and Palencia. An important connection between Castile, Madrid and the northern coast:









A-*7* (Thanks Morsue for your correction) in Granada province. This stretch has been u/c for many years and is currently the only part on the Mediterranean coast in which you can't use a motorway:


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## Mateusz

Chris, what is the online map which you use here ?


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## Morsue

Cicerón said:


> A-67 in Granada province. This stretch has been u/c for many years and is currently the only part on the Mediterranean coast in which you can't use a motorway:
> http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z58/ciceron00/a-7.jpg


You mean A-7, right? I drove that route between Malaga and Murcia last summer trying to catch some nice scenery (the ringling roads by the sea are stunning) but ended up in a massive traffic jam between La Herradura and Torrenueva.



MateoW said:


> Chris, what is the online map which you use here ?


He's using ViaMichelin.


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## ChrisZwolle

Mighty Madrid:


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## Mateusz

There is a thread about Madrid road network and there are maps of future M60


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## Stifler

MateoW said:


> There is a thread about Madrid road network and there are maps of future M60


Yeah, they started to study it a couple of years ago but it's not likely to happen soon. With the new motorways built in the last decade you don't have to go through Madrid to cross the country, so the traffic level is lower. Maybe in 20 years we could see a M60. Now they are far more focused on closing the North side of M50.

This is a map of that M60 (blue) and the missing stretch of M50 (red) by Carretero









And why not a M70 









Seriously, with the new motorways planned or under construction (A40, CM40...) it will be a kind of ring in the outskirts of Madrid Metro Area.


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## Cicerón

Some news about the tolled "radiales" of Madrid.

The R-3 and R-5 will be lengthened.

-The R-3 is 29 km long now (from Madrid to Arganda del Rey); it will be 55 longer (to Tarancón). Total: 84 km long.

-The R-5 is 40 km long now (from Madrid to Navalcarnero); it will be 94 km longer (to Talavera de la Reina). Total: 134 km long.

Besides, the construction of the R-1 (30 km) will start soon. 

Source: http://www.publico.es/dinero/070040/autopistas/paron


I also wanted to post some information from the official magazine of the Spanish ministry of public works.

*A-66.* Now completed in Andalusia and Extremadura (366.7 km)

Tunnels in Seville province:









"Cuesta de Media Fanega", between Seville and Huelva provinces:









Junction in Huelva province:









Near Puerto de Béjar, Cáceres and Salamanca provinces:









Salamanca province:










Current status of the A-66 in Castile and Leon:









21 km in "estudio informativo" (before starting the construction, a study about environmental affections is made).
49 km in project (_en proyecto_).
121 km under construction (_en ejecución_).
87.7 km opened (_en servicio_).


*A-23*. Last stretch between Huesca and Sagunto (near Valencia) opened.

Lechago viaduct:









Near Calamocha, Teruel province:


















Current status. There are still some stretches U/C or in project norht of Huesca:










*A-41*.

Over the HSL Madrid-Seville. Ciudad Real province:









Junction in Argamasilla-Calatrava:









Ciudad Real province:


----------



## activi

Some more pictures of A3 Madrid-Valencia, i had put some in this thread a long time ago, but these are new pics taken on february 2008.

Near Arganda just after leaving Madrid










Sout East of Madrid province and a typical 'bull' find in many places in spain, near main roads










Province of Cuenca, reaching the detour to the city of Cuenca 










Near Segóbriga roman ruins











Always lot of traffic in this higway










Half of the trip, detour to Alicante and Murcia










Eolic park










by the side of the road











Passing over Jucar river and Tajo-Segura channel



















The works for new High speed train are now by the side of the road, crossing over too



















reaching Cabriel river and Valencia region



















over the reservoir










more works on HSL Madrid-Valencia










last bull in the way before it gets too dark to take pics


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## Morsue

activi said:


> Half of the trip, detour to Alicante and Murcia


Nice pics, but here we go again with the useless Spanish signage...


----------



## OriK

I hate those giant roundabouts. They must have traffic lights and is easy to get lost there... but it seems that it'll be a busy street so it's necessary. ¿Where is that exactly?.


The M-30 is now underground, but this is still going under the "Vicente Calderon" (if you drive to the south, you'll be underground all the time, but if you drive to the north, you'll go out, pass under the "Vicente Calderón" and go underground again).


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## ChrisZwolle

Jet fighter on a roundabout near Getafe.


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## Timon91

They should make all roundabouts look cool, but that's a hell lot of work.


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## ChrisZwolle

M-503 at Pozuelo de Alarcón (suburb of Madrid)


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## Maxx☢Power

Madrid strikes me as a very sensible city, planning-wise.. Is it just me, or is there some justification to that assertion?


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## Maxx☢Power

Madrid strikes me as a very sensible city, planning-wise.. Is it just me, or is there some justification to that assertion?


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ There is no city like it in Europe which has this kind of sophisticated infrastructure, wether rail or roads. It seems to be masterplanned, however, some area's of the metropolitan area seems just like US suburbs, however, better and nicer, with some more variation (rowhouses, apartment complexes etc). You also see a lot of apartment complexes under construction.


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## Verso

Some great infrastructure here.


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## OriK

Maxx☢Power;22191900 said:


> Madrid strikes me as a very sensible city, planning-wise.. Is it just me, or is there some justification to that assertion?


I think that Madrid has a good planification but isn't perfect... it's almost impossible to park in the city and if you get a parking space you must pay for it and leave it before ¿2? hours (except private parkings, weekends, at night and with the resident card), also we have a huge underground/commuter network but (I think that inexplicably, because in comparison are much larger than in other similar cities) in some zones, it's almost collapsed in rush hour, the same with the motorways, we have 3 ring motorways (M-30, M-40 and M-50), 7 free major radial motorways (A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, A-42, A-5 and A-6), 5 toll radial motorways (R-2, R-3, R-4, AP-41 and R-5), some minor radial motorways (like M-407) and "half-rings" (like M-45) and most of the free motorways are almost collapsed (in fact, the M-30 is the busyest road in Spain with hundreds of thousands of daily movements).

Bye²


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## Bitxofo

Chriszwolle said:


> Jet fighter on a roundabout near Getafe.


Oh, I love it!
:drool:


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## Stifler

Chriszwolle said:


> New urban area on the southeastside of Madrid. This is how they make their road infrastructure, ofcourse, they also have an extended metronetwork. Why can't we do that in the Netherlands? Such a road as pictured here would have only 1 lane per direction in the Netherlands.
> http://i25.tinypic.com/15phfnb.jpg


Yep, Madrid astonishes me in this sense everytime I am there. I have a friend working as an engineer in this area and it's unbelievable how well planned it is before anybody lives there.

About the things to improve:
- I would limit the sprawl in the surroundings of the city. It's inefficient and in 99% of the cases butt ugly.
- Metro stations in the entries of the cities should have large cheap parkings, so people could leave the car there and take the superb Metro/bus system for moving inside M-30.
- New built light-rail lines have been disappointing. They are too slow to be competitive.


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## Cicerón

Fantastic map of Spain and Portugal by Reivajar. It has some errors we're correcting in the Spanish forum.




Reivajar said:


> Muy buenas a [email protected]
> 
> Aquí os dejo un archivo para que le echéis un ojo. Me acabo de enterar de lo de esta autovía "Transmanchega" pero bueno, en fin... controlar dos ministerios, 17 administraciones autonómicas y demás planes municipales tiene al final sus fallos y retrasos.
> 
> 
> (2,03 Mb)
> 
> Espero críticas, consejos y correcciones. Muchas gracias.
> 
> P.D. Si alguien cree conveniente colgarlo en foros regionales para mayor precisión en las correcciones o indicaciones adelante, no hay problema.
> 
> Un saludo.


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## Maxx☢Power

Chriszwolle said:


> ^^ There is no city like it in Europe which has this kind of sophisticated infrastructure, wether rail or roads. It seems to be masterplanned, however, some area's of the metropolitan area seems just like US suburbs, however, better and nicer, with some more variation (rowhouses, apartment complexes etc). You also see a lot of apartment complexes under construction.


I think the thing that strikes me with Madrid is that it seems very dense _and_ with great, planned infrastructure, while most other big cities seem to fall into two categories; they're either sprawling monsters with huge motorways for tentacles (North America) or they're dense but with heavily congested, old and unplanned infrastructure (Europe). Madrid is kind of like one of those old commieblock masterplans done right, or maybe it's Suburbia done right.. It does seem to have a lot of sprawl, but it looks like it's contained somewhat by using denser architecture.


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## lambersart2005

I can't believe what I am reading here... Madrid as a 'super-planned' metro area? Just have a look at the metro's southeastern edge: Incredible road-infrastructure in the middle of nowwhere before construction starts. This seems hardly sustainable. Of course, Madrid also has one of the fastest growing public transportation networks but the road/ freeway infrastrucutre is also growing like hell. Hard to believe what people chose when there's a brand new six- to 10 lane freeway right in front of their urbanizacion, including mulit-level interchanges and 6-lane brand new roundabouts. For me, this is insane and nothing but un-sustainable....


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## lambersart2005

that's what I mean....
and even with a super rail network - NO, this is not sustainable. This is like the freeway-madness in the 60s - but realized!!!!!!!!


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## lambersart2005

... or this... insane in the beginning of the 2000s... we should know better now


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## Bori427

^^Why the hate?


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## OriK

lambersart2005 said:


> Of course, Madrid also has one of the fastest growing public transportation networks but the road/ freeway infrastrucutre is also growing like hell. Hard to believe what people chose when there's a brand new six- to 10 lane freeway right in front of their urbanizacion, including mulit-level interchanges and 6-lane brand new roundabouts. For me, this is insane and nothing but un-sustainable....


Here there is'nt usual to see roads with more than 3 lanes (sometimes +1 or +2 in the service way).

Metro de Madrid had 700 million of travels last year (2 million of travels every day).

Cercanías Madrid had 255 million of travels in 2006.

EMT (Madrid's busses, without metropolitan area) had 473 million of travels in 2005.

Here, people choose the fastest solution (and sometimes, the cheapest one, there are more cars the first days of any month that the last days), the people don't like using the car, it's a problem parking, there are jams and you can't drink. The people only use it when there is a substantially reduced travel time.

And the infraestructure is build in the middle of nowhere because is already planned that is going to be something there.

Bye bye


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## ChrisZwolle

lambersart2005 said:


> ... or this... insane in the beginning of the 2000s... we should know better now


You seems to be the guy that loves traffic jams to drive everybody into public transportation what doesn't work eventually. Name one city where there are no traffic jams and everybody uses public transportation, where your idealism actually works.


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## ChrisZwolle

Besides that, the Madrid traffic model is working quite good. They only have 40 - 50 km of traffic jam during peak hours, compare that to the Netherlands, where they used that "sustainable" policy of not widening freeways. The Randstad is in number of inhabitants a bit larger than Madrid, however, it has usually 5 - 6 times more kilometers of traffic jams, 200 - 250km of queue in the Randstad is not uncommon. 

How is Madrid doing on the park and ride system? Are there any along the M-30? It's best to keep the traffic inside the historic city center to a minimum.


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## ChrisZwolle

Autopista only? Or also Autovía. Combined it would be over 13.000 kilometers.


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## Mateusz

Hmm, I think only Autopista is exact motorway, Autovia is more likely expressway


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ No, that distinction has been gone. The only difference now is that an Autopista has fewer exits, is tolled and has better facilities (rest areas) along the route. Nearly all present-day Autovías are the same as motorways (autoroute, motorway, autosnelweg, autobahn etc) throughout the world.

There are still some old Autovía sections (especially the radiating autovías from Madrid), but they are under reconstruction. It's a multi billion euro project to rehabilitate these old autovía's.


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## OriK

^^^

In an Autopista, all access/exists are via service ways/lanes, in an Autovía they can be directly to the Autovía.

Also there are a lot of kilometers considered Autovía being really an Autopista, (in example the official's name of the A-40 is "Autovía de Castilla-La Mancha" and officialy is an Autopista, or some large zones of Autovías that are in fact Autopistas), here the people usually say "Autovía" when it's free and "Autopista" when it's a toll motorway (but it isn't the correct definition).

Bye²


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## diegodbs

14,325 Km, as of March 2008.

First four countries by number of km: USA, China, Germany and Spain.

Autopistas are toll roads, whereas Autovías are toll free and managed by the central government or by the regional governments.


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## ChrisZwolle

I doubt if Germany has over 14.325 km. A lot of these "Gelbe Autobahnen" are substandard, lacking shoulders and proper on and offramps. (they are grade-separated though).


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## diegodbs

Chriszwolle said:


> I doubt if Germany has over 14.325 km. A lot of these "Gelbe Autobahnen" are substandard, lacking shoulders and proper on and offramps. (they are grade-separated though).


In 2007, Germany had approx. 600 km more than Spain, I dont know now. Maybe Spain is now the third country. :dunno:


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## Mateusz

And Germany will build couple of more thousands


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## Bitxofo

diegodbs said:


> ...
> 
> Autopistas are toll roads, whereas Autovías are toll free and managed by the central government or by the regional governments.


Not really but 90% true! There are some "autopistas" without toll in Spain...


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## runi

MateoW said:


> And Germany will build couple of more thousands


Yes, but Spain has lots of plans too. I don't think Germany has as many projected new highways as Spain, where the rhythm is just incredible even between cities that don't seem to be that important!


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## Mateusz

They have... actually I couldn't believe they plan so much more to build... at the moment their network is perfect nearly

Here is the plan by the way :cheers:


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## OriK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopista
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autovía

In the Spanish wikipedia there are some interesting google maps links:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autovía#Elementos_caracter.C3.ADsticos

Bye²


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## ChrisZwolle

Some of that German roads will never be build, like the A5 Bremen - Gießen and a parallel A24. The German Autobahn construction has slowed way down since the completion of most motorways in eastern Germany. They should only add a few short missing links, and widen the most important transport axes.

However, I think most of the Spanish Autovia/Autopista network is also completed. I have the idea their construction pace has also slowed down since the elections.


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## Mateus_

Nephasto said:


> ^^But the A52 is not old.
> 
> And although it's a very good autovia, it's not better than the AP-2 or AP-68. Not saying that it's worse either, but the geometry is certainly not as good (although it's good), due to the difficult terrain.
> But that makes it much more impressive also!


But A52 is close from home (12 km!)


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## OriK

In Spain all kind of inauguration/starting works usually are planned for be near the elections. The year after the elections usually is very quiet.

In my zone there are 3 new motorways planned and I live in a rural zone.

Bye²


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## Cicerón

LOTS of pictures by Carabaza and Fesaiz. Taken from the urbanity.es forums.


A-231

The colour in the first sign is used for monuments or historical places. "Camino de Santiago" is the Way of St. James, a pilgrim route.



Carabaza said:


> Aqui están las fotos de las circunvalaciones de Burgos. Ruego a los expertos de nuestro foro en Burgos (sobretodo a Carretero) que nos avisen de las posibles incorrecciones en los comentarios...xD
> 
> *Circunvalando Burgos*
> 
> *
> Fesaiz & Carabaza*
> *
> 13 de Julio de 2.008*​
> Autovía desde Osorno...
> 
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> Ya en el municipio de Burgos!



Look at the sign :lol:



Carabaza said:


> Esto ya es la BU-30
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> sobre el FF.CC. Madrid-Irún




I think that this sign has became famous in some highways forums.



Carabaza said:


> desde aquí sale la A-62 hacia Tierra de Campos...
> 
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> Hacia el enlace con la A-1 hacia Madrid y con el centro de Burgos
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> Ahi lo tenemos...




AP-1 (a toll-free stretch).




Carabaza said:


> Pasado el enlace, intenso tráfico N-S en la AP-1
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> Se acerca nuestro desvío hacia la A-1 / BU-30!!




The toll station. You have to pay if you want to continue.



Carabaza said:


> Abandonamos justo antes del peaje...



Now the A-1 and BU-30.



Carabaza said:


> Ahora en la A-1 pendiente de los carteles para coger la BU-30...
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> Diversos carteles que ya indican la A-73... (deberían taparse, digo yo, o sustituirse por N-623 / N-627) De todas formas esta zona es un lío... no sé sabe muy bien si uno está en la A-1 ó en la S-30 asi que pido disculpas de antemano por los fallos...
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> El recién estrenado Aeropuerto de Villafría!
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> Nos indica con 2 carriles (a punto de quedarse en uno) Santander y el otro para salir a Burgos ciudad y a localidades del entorno inmediato




There's only one tunnel, the second one is U/C.




Carabaza said:


> El famosísimo túnel!
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## ChrisZwolle

Excellent showcase. If you understand the numbering system, it's not so bad, all road numbers seem to be signed continuous.


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## OriK

The signaling in ringroads usually sucks... They should simplify that, but you can't without lossing important information... In Madrid I usually get confused when I want to join a ringroad because (in example) if you join to M-50 in a point between A-5 and R-5, the signaling shows "A-5 Badajoz" for west and "R-5 Badajoz" for east, I must remember where are located a lot of cities regarding my position and sometimes where are the toll and the free motorway, everything to go to the next city.

Bye²


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## x-type

omg, 10 roads and 3 destinations at direction sign :lol: only in Spain  but excellent pics and roads!

btw, one more difference between autovia and autopista: exit numbers - at autovias there is "austrian" system (km where exit is), autopistas have "german" (ordinary numbers)


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## OriK

x-type said:


> btw, one more difference between autovia and autopista: exit numbers - at autovias there is "austrian" system (km where exit is), autopistas have "german" (ordinary numbers)


I think that not always, in toll autopistas they use the german system because they haven't much exits, but I've seen free autopistas with the austrian system.

Bye²


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## ChrisZwolle

They are called sequential or mileage systems 

However, I'm not sure if there is a "kilometer" alternative for "mileage". In German they can say "kilometrierung". Mileage still sounds better to me than "based on the nearest kilometer marker".


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## muravidék

breathtaking photos, thank you


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## x-type

Chriszwolle said:


> They are called sequential or mileage systems
> 
> However, I'm not sure if there is a "kilometer" alternative for "mileage". In German they can say "kilometrierung". Mileage still sounds better to me than "based on the nearest kilometer marker".


kilometrage  we also have nice word for kilometrierung in croatian


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## diegodbs

x-type said:


> kilometrage  we also have nice word for kilometrierung in croatian


And "kilometraje" in Spanish.


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## x-type

yeah, it all have than french adding "age" in certain national shapes. we have kilometraža


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## ElviS77

Chriszwolle said:


> I doubt if Germany has over 14.325 km. A lot of these "Gelbe Autobahnen" are substandard, lacking shoulders and proper on and offramps. (they are grade-separated though).


Well, the standard of the "Gelbe Autobahnen" I've driven (and they were older, not the B6n or similar), are at least par with more than a few of the autovias I've driven, some of which were not much more than a dualled 2-lane highway. And they're most certainly par with some of the stuff called "motorway" in Sweden (18.5-metre profile on certain parts of the E6) and Norway (20-metre profile). And in general, quite a few older stretches of officially dubbed motorway around the world are in a much worse state than the average 4-lane Bundesstrasse...


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## ChrisZwolle

According to this wikipedia article, Spain now has indeed 14.325 kilometers of motorway. This is the third highest in the world, after the United States and China.


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## LMB

ElviS77 said:


> Well, the standard of the "Gelbe Autobahnen" I've driven (and they were older, not the B6n or similar), are at least par with more than a few of the autovias I've driven


So did I, here's B42 (bit dark) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YTuOlx_xPCg


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## Timon91

Chriszwolle said:


> According to this wikipedia article, Spain now has indeed 14.325 kilometers of motorway. This is the third highest in the world, after the United States and China.


Just out of curiousity, how many kms does Germany have?


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ 12.044 kilometer, however, that only includes Autobahnen, and Gelbe Autobahnen are complementing that system, so they are about the same.


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## Cicerón

Diagram of the M-40, M-30 and approach roads to Madrid-Barajas airport, taken from the _Mapa Oficial de Carreteras Interactivo 2008_, the Spanish official map of roads.

Scaled preview:









Example: 









Link (5187×3688): http://xs130.xs.to/xs130/08326/esquemas409.png


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## ABRob

Cicerón said:


> Diagram of the M-40, M-30 and approach roads to Madrid-Barajas airport, taken from the _Mapa Oficial de Carreteras Interactivo 2008_, the Spanish official map of roads.
> 
> Scaled preview:
> http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z58/ciceron00/esquemas2.jpg
> 
> Example:
> http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z58/ciceron00/ejemplo.jpg
> 
> Link (5187×3688): http://xs130.xs.to/xs130/08326/esquemas409.png


Nice!

Do you have some scans/images of the normal roadmaps of this official map?


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## Cicerón

ABRob said:


> Nice!
> 
> Do you have some scans/images of the normal roadmaps of this official map?


I only have the CD-Rom version. 

Here you have some screenshots:

"Normal" maps:









Roads in the outskirts of the cities:









Cities:










Other interesting features:

Tourist info about monuments:
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z58/ciceron00/mapa5.jpg

Pictures of monuments:
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z58/ciceron00/mapa6.jpg

Tourist routes:
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z58/ciceron00/mapa4.jpg

And some others as cycling routes, climate statistics, mountain passes, tolls, service stations, national parks...


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## Seppl

Does anyone know, when the A-62 between Ciudad Rodrigo and the portuguese boarder and the AP-1 between Vitoria and the AP-8 will be finished?


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## ChrisZwolle

According to Google Earth, the A-62 is finished until 4km before the Portuguese border, however Spanish wikipedia states november 2008. 

Wiki is less clear on the AP-1, however, there's the toll free alternative in the A-1 (said to be substandard). It runs from San Sebastian to Vitoria.


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## Seppl

Chriszwolle said:


> According to Google Earth, the A-62 is finished until 4km before the Portuguese border, however Spanish wikipedia states november 2008.
> 
> Wiki is less clear on the AP-1, however, there's the toll free alternative in the A-1 (said to be substandard). It runs from San Sebastian to Vitoria.


I read the contradictory information on Wikipedia and Google Earth, which confuse me a little. I was hoping that someone lives near this area. 

It's the same issue with the AP-1. I have driven to Portugal several times using the A-1. I was just curious whether I can try to drive a different way when I drive there next spring. 

But thanks a lot anyway

Seppl


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## ChrisZwolle

How's that A-1? I might be driving across it next week. Weather in Switzerland doesn't look good, so I'm looking for an alternative.


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## Seppl

The A-1 is definetly not as good as the AP-1 but I like landscape. The condition of the street is different. Some parts between San Sebastian and Altsasu are definetly substandard, but still okay. You have a couple of speed limits with 80 km/h and one sharp rise pretty close to Altsasu. This part was build in 2003 and if you drive around that area you will know what I mean. 

The part closer to Vitoria is better and good to drive. 

I might have some pictures of that area, although I am not 100% sure. I took a lot of pictures from Spain and Portugal when I drove back year. If I find them, I will upload them.

But anyway, your choice of driving around that area is definetly a good idea

Seppl


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## runi

Seppl said:


> The A-1 is definetly not as good as the AP-1 but I like landscape. The condition of the street is different. Some parts between San Sebastian and Altsasu are definetly substandard, but still okay. You have a couple of speed limits with 80 km/h and one sharp rise pretty close to Altsasu. This part was build in 2003 and if you drive around that area you will know what I mean.


You're right  And not only that, being near the border means the traffic is huge and there're lots of trucks everywhere, which is also quite dangerous on a road with so many curves. In fact it's pretty common to see trucks accidents and the motorway remains blocked for several hours. I agree about the landscape, it's gorgeous 



Seppl said:


> The part closer to Vitoria is better and good to drive.


Yes, once you arrive in Alsasua/Altsasu the road gets much better because it's not that mountainous.

Btw after a delay of more than a year, the AP-1 between Eibar and Vitoria is supposed to be finished at the end of this year, but I read it won't actually be open until next spring because they're having some important geological problems to build the Arlabán tunnel (3,3 km long).


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## Seppl

Here are some pictures, that I took in 2006. As you can see the signage of the N-1/A-1 is not very consistent, but I am not sure if they have already changed that.

Junction between the AP-1/A-1 and the AP-68


N-1


















Junction between the N-1/A-1 and the A-8














Pretty close to the frontier


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## Cicerón

Don't trust on Google Earth/Maps when it comes to Spanish roads, because some may appear as finished when they're still under construction.

The AP-1 is only finished from the AP-8 to Arrasate-Mondragón if I remember rightly. The A-1 is not that bad, the worst part is the Etxegarate mountain pass has two sharp curves in the southbound carriageway (to Altsasu-Alsasua), because it's the old N-I.

Here you have it: http://maps.google.es/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.954255,-2.235096&spn=0.009596,0.030899&t=h&z=16

A video by the forumer BPT: 





Another video by BTP. This one is northbound. Notice the "frontier" between Navarre and the Basque Country at 0:57, the southbound carriageway meeting again at 1:51 and the same carriageway crossing over the northbound carriageway twice at 2:03 and 2:41.


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## OriK

Cicerón said:


> Don't trust on Google Earth/Maps when it comes to Spanish roads, because some may appear as finished when they're still under construction.


This is becoming a problem, there are a lot of new roads and the gps's systems/online maps aren't very accurate with them, they signal roads not yet opened as opened and some opened roads doesn't appear.

Also there are some zones on toll motorways which are free of charge and not all are well on gps (so it makes you drive more kilometers unnecessarily, and sometimes on worse roads).

I heard on the news some weeks ago that this problem has forced to distribute an information leaflet on the toll booths of the AP-1 helping drivers to bypass the gps malfunction.

This is an important problem but at least new motorways are usually asociated to a conventional road (sometimes the motorway is an upgrade of the previous road, and other times is parallel, the most common is a mixed solution for free motorways and parallel or not associated for toll motorways) and if you understand the signaling you can continue without problems.

Bye²


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## Aokromes

Living near the A-1 and U/C zone of AP-1 i recomend to to forget of the A-1 from Alsasua to San Sebastian and use A-10 from Alsasua to Irurzun and A-15 from Irurzun to Andoain and then A-1 to San Sebastian.


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## ChrisZwolle

Good lord:


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## Timon91

What a horrible sign hno:


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## ChrisZwolle

"Hey, why don't we just put all road numbers in metro Madrid on one sign?" :nuts:


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## Timon91

Saves material --> saves money. Nice issue for the dutch 'bezuinigingen'


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## Morsue

And it says "todas direcciones" on the _other _sign


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## Cicerón

ChrisZwolle said:


> "Hey, why don't we just put all road numbers in metro Madrid on one sign?" :nuts:


:lol: It's "funny" when you're arriving to Madrid on a radial highway (the "A-" and "R-" ones) and, before the junction with one of the ring roads, you can see two sings, each one with half of the highways of all Madrid metropolitan area.


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## runi

I guess it might be too confusing for some people, but I find it really useful in a place with such a big infrastructure. You have to understand this isn't a common city :lol: So when I have to choose a specific highway, I appreciate to see it in the signs since the beginning


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## ChrisZwolle

Well, I also believe road numbering here makes more sense than destinations. Like if you come from A1 and you see a sign with "Toledo" or "Badajoz", which route will it take? You have no idea.


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## runi

ChrisZwolle said:


> Well, I also believe road numbering here makes more sense than destinations. Like if you come from A1 and you see a sign with "Toledo" or "Badajoz", which route will it take? You have no idea.


True, for example in this case, coming from A1 you'll see some signs indicating M-30 and M-40 so firstly you have to choose the ring you want to take and once you're there you start seeing other signs, both local (streets, squares, monuments, stations, etc.) and other cities' signs. Indicating just Toledo wouldn't be enough since you have the free and toll highways to go there so it's important to pay attention to the number :lol:


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## rpc08

runi said:


> I guess it might be too confusing for some people, but I find it really useful in a place with such a big infrastructure. You have to understand this isn't a common city :lol: So when I have to choose a specific highway, I appreciate to see it in the signs since the beginning


I think that signs are done specially for people who doesn't know the city...


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## Cicerón

Finally the first works for refurbishing the radial _autovías_ have begun :banana:

The first stretch has been the one between Calatayud and Alfajarín (93.3 km) in the A-2. They have waited for the Expo2008 in Saragossa to end before starting the works, but still there was a 12 km long traffic jam around Saragossa yesterday.










Source (in Spanish): http://www.heraldo.es/index.php/mod.noticias/mem.detalle/idnoticia.24644/relcategoria.300


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## ChrisZwolle

Is there one lane traffic for 93.3 kilometers continuous? Looks frustrating to me.


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## arriaca

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is there one lane traffic for 93.3 kilometers continuous? Looks frustrating to me.


No, only some kilometers. I suposse, it depens of the works Now are 12 km


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## Cicerón

Not for 93.3 km, but for some km, depending on the works they're doing. Keep in mind that some parts of the stretch only need new asphalt, but some others need a totally new route, so I guess they aren't going to cut a lane for 93.3 km at the same time.


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## Cicerón

The A-601 Valladolid-Segovia (104.6 km) has been opened today.










http://www.jcyl.es/scsiau/Satellite...01. Autovía Valladolid-Segovia.pdf/_?asm=jcyl


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## ChrisZwolle

Isn't that the CL-601? 

Now there are two connections between Madrid and Valladolid, but neither are direct, the A-6/AP-6/A-62 via Tordesillas or the A-6/AP-6/AP-61/CL-601 via Segovia. Are there plans to rebuild the N-601 to a motorway?


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## Cicerón

Yes. The old road N-601 Collado Villalba-Segovia-Valladolid-León was renamed as M-601 in Madrid and CL-601 in Castile and Leon, only until Valladolid. The rest is still the N-601. Now the stretch from Segovia to Valladolid it's called A-601. 

Between Valladolid and León you have the A-60, but only 16.6 km (from Valladolid to the airport) are under construction currently.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autovía_Valladolid-León


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## ChrisZwolle

So A-601 is the new number for CL-601? Google Earth still displays it that way, and to be frank, it makes more sense in the numbering system. A would mean either Andalucía, Aragón or Autovía, but I thought Autovías are only in the 1/2 digit area.


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## Cicerón

I agree with you, but that's how they call it in the press release I posted (post #772):









BTW, there's also the A-231, in Castile & Leon too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autovía_A-231


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## Skylandman

A few shots from Flickr

Autovía A-44 (Guadalfeo - Gorgoracha)









Autovía M501









AG-56









AG-56









MA-21









A-21









A-30









AC-543? Santiago - Noia









A-67









E-70









AP7









???









???










B10









A8









A66


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## arriaca

Skylandman said:


> A few shots from Flickr
> 
> 
> ???


¿AP 7 near Almeria?





>


A 6 (Las Rozas, Madrid)


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## Cicerón

arriaca said:


> ¿AP 7 near Almeria?


I think it's the A-7 near Benalmádena. There's a cable car crossing over the highway, and it seems that the picture has been taken from it.


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## Patrick

landscape :drool:


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## Bori427

How does Spain have/get so much money to build so many freeways?


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## diegodbs

^^ Well, we pay taxes and taxes are useful for many things, free health care, free education, highways, railways, etc.


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## ChrisZwolle

From what I've seen of project info, their motorways are relatively cheap, especially those outside urbanized areas.


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## Norsko

I am a bit confused... What is really the difference between autopistas and autovias?


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## Bitxofo

Bori427 said:


> How does Spain have/get so much money to build so many freeways?


European Union has helped a lot, but we pay lots of taxes too...
:yes:


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## ChrisZwolle

Norsko said:


> I am a bit confused... What is really the difference between autopistas and autovias?


Nearly nothing. Autopistas have more service areas and less exits and are tolled. I think the toll thing is the biggest difference. Older Autovias are more substandard though, but they are being upgraded.


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## Stifler

Hello everybody

I am back from a week-holiday in Southern Spain. I thought it would be interesting to make a complete report with pics of every motorway in the route (yeah, I know it's not a US Coast-to-Coast but it's the best I can offer). 

Unfortunately my camera started failing in the early stages of the trip so I had to use my mobilephone camera instead. Consequently don't expect good quality pics but I hope they are good enough to get an overall idea of every road.

I start my report in Cordoba, going SE to Granada and then all the way North to my hometown Asturias stopping in Salamanca.











We spent a couple of nights in Córdoba, known for being the capital of Al-Andalus and the largest city in the world around 1000 years ago. Nowadays it's a midsized city (pop.323,000) known in Spain for its leftist ideology and extremely hot summers. If you plan to visit it, avoid July and August since it's usual to be over 40ºC.

Our next destination was Granada, so we had 3 options available to reach it by car: A45 and A92 through Antequera, A4 and A44 through Jaén and N-432 through Nacional road.

We had already decided to choose the first option (I hadn't driven in A92 and it seemed the fastest one), but we made the mistake to ask for advice to the locals. As you might imagine, almost everybody said our route was the worst and that they knew a shorter and nicer one . 

Don't trust on what locals say about routes when you travel through Spain, especially if they are old. Many times they are so used to some routes that they don't even know there is a motorway-option available.

*A45 Córdoba - Antequera*









We start our trip early in the morning so we don't have to suffer too much with the heat. Unfortunately it means less light for the pics and the mosquitos didn't help to make them better (where are our beloved gipsy screen-cleaners when we want them? ). 









Landscape seems to have more trees than what I expected. The motorway has a good quality overall.









Unfortunately there is a missing stretch close to Antequera, so we have to take the Nacional road.









As you can see, the motorway is being built paralel to the old Nacional road.









Only 5-10 minutes later we are back in A45 again.









But it won't be for long, since we have to take this exit near Antequera heading for A92.










*A92 Antequera - Málaga*









A92 gets its name because Andalucia Community planned to build it for the 1992 Expo. However, it wasn't completely finished until 2003. This stretch was built upgrading into motorway the old N-342.

Landscape is pretty arid but cool.









There you can see a 'white village', one of the Andalucian touristic landmarks.









Here we have the chance to go to Malaga through A92M. 









Area for emergency brake with such a colorful painting.









It's pretty funny to drive through here.









Suddenly we find ourselves surrounded by big trees for a couple of kilometers









And 5 minutes later we see our exit to Granada through A44.









A44 acts like a busy beltway for Granada. We were supposed to have nice views of Sierra Nevada from here, but it was not the best weather for that.









I will try to keep the rest coming asap. Fortunately I have more and better quality pics in the next stages.


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## Cicerón

I knew that someone was going to mention the EU 

Yes, the European Union gave Spain lots of Structural Funds (ERDF) until 2007, even though our Gross National Income had reached the limit (90% of EU average) before 2007, but that's because the EU budget is made every 7 years. Anyway the percentage was quite low compared to Spain's GDP because our population was bigger than the other receiving countries such as Ireland, Portugal and Greece.

And don't forget that Spain also gives money to the EU, for example in the 2007-2013 budget we must give 76 billion€ and receive about 78, with a benefit of 2.2 billion€ in 7 years. Considering that the Spanish state alone (not the autonomous communities) has spent this year 2.8 billion€ in building new roads, we can't say that the EU is paying all of our infrastructure as some people think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union#State_by_state_analysis

http://www.sgpg.pap.meh.es/Presup/PGE2008Ley/PGE-ROM/doc/1/3/14/2/N_08_E_R_31_117_1_1_7.PDF (see row "435B-Creación de infraestructura de carreteras" and column "Total").


Edit: Wow! Thanks for the pictures, Stifler! 


Edit 2:



Norsko said:


> I am a bit confused... What is really the difference between autopistas and autovias?


We have discussed about that a lot in the Spanish forum :lol:



ChrisZwolle said:


> Nearly nothing. Autopistas have more service areas and less exits and are tolled. I think the toll thing is the biggest difference. Older Autovias are more substandard though, but they are being upgraded.


Basically you're right, but I'd like to do some clarifications. In the 70's, the _autopistas_ were totally new highways, sometimes tolled (as the AP-7 from Barcelona to Valencia), sometimes not tolled (A-66 and A-8 between Oviedo and Gijón). 

But in the 80's, the socialist goverment decided to "duplicate" the radial roads going out of Madrid. These duplications consisted on just adding another parallel carriageway next to the old road and, obviously, changing the same level crossings for different level intersections, but they couldn't call the _autopistas_, so they invented the word _autovía_ (nowadays we call them _autovías de primera generación_). 

Since that, all the free highways built in Spain are called _autovías_, even though the ones built in the 90's and 2000's are not a simple duplication. The ones built in the 80's are being upgraded (see the previous page).


To sum up, _autopistas _can be tolled or not (most of them are tolled), and, if tolled, they all are supposed to have a free alternative. _Autovías_ are never tolled. The older ones (80's) are more substandard and some vehicles such as bikes and mopeds <49cc can run over them (you have to be crazy though).


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## Stifler

I will post the rest of the trip.

After spending a couple of days sightseeing, it's time to leave Granada. It has an atmosphere difficult to find anywhere in Spain, with the locals mixed with thousands of foreign students (I had never seen such a large concentration of young Americans in Europe) and 21th century hippies.

Granada is pretty cheap (for Spanish standards), but advices are always useful. For eating, avoid terraces and go to the 2/3 main 'tapas' streets. There are full of bars where they will give you a well-sized mini-meal with every drink. A beer costs 1.5€-2€ and you are full with 3 tapas.

*A44 Granada - Bailén*









To leave Granada we get the busy A44 again. Here you can see the colorful Spanish signage.









Weird info in the panel: Throwing butts 4 points (less in the driving license)









Yellow colour show they are doing some works in the motorway although we don't see them (it's Saturday).









In some stretches the lines have the usual white colour.









Landscape is pretty cool.









In some stretches they decided to use a solid lane in the middle, although nobody respected that.









Caution: high risk of fire.









Passing next to Jaén, one of the most unknown Spanish capitals I would say.









Something happens since one lane is closed.









We are guided to the other carriageway.









So we have to share it with the cars in the opposite direction. It seems they are doing some important works in the other carriageway (not only paving it).









After 5 km or so, we are back to the usual carriageway again.









So we keep our route surrounded by olive trees (Jaén is pretty famous for that), even smelling some oil sometimes.









And we reach the end of A44, taking the radial A4.










*A4 Bailén - Pinto*









The first stretches are made of this pretty ugly concrete, but the road is not in a bad condition. Guarro means filthy in Spanish. I always laugh when I heard of this village.









After this we had to drive through the (in)famous Despeñaperros. I will edit the video I have if you want so.

It means we have crossed the border between Andalucia and Castilla-La Mancha. We will see the Spanish bull several times during the rest of our trip.









We were stopped in a police checkpoint where they were looking for somebody. 









I think A4 is the motorway where I have seen the largest amount of white signage in Spain. No idea why.









From this point, we will have to suffer some very bad stretches.









And some really good ones where nobody seems to respect the speed limits (reason why speed is controlled like in this pic). 









Osborne bull is the most famous ad/landmark in the Spanish roads, but this one in the right is also pretty usual.









After more than 50km without mayor roads around, it's a plessure to see a motorway exit again.









And now we have to make an important decision: new high quality tolled R4 or old poor quality free-tolled A4.









We hadn't driven through this stretch of A-4 for a while, so we decide to take the free option.









This stretch is really bad. You can still see an exit like saying 'are you sure you don't want to take R4 instead?'.









Once we get closer to Madrid, the motorway improves. We can see industrial areas at both sides of A4.









And we start to see the first buildings. This is Valdemoro, a 50,000 inh. town in Madrid Metro Area.









There's a popular expression in Spanish 'being between Pinto and Valdemoro', which means being hesitant. So now we are exactly there. 









Time to leave A4 and get M50, the furthest Madrid ring-motorway.










*M50 Pinto - Las Rozas*









The first exit in the West side of the ring is for R5, the new tolled alternative to A5.









The exit to A5, which is in a better condition than A4 by the way.









We keep our route in the NW part of M50. In this area, you find some of the wealthiest suburbs of Madrid.









In general, the condition of the motorway is very good.









But it's time to leave it and join A6.


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## Stifler

*A6 Las Rozas - Collado Villalba*









Four lanes + reversible lane. It's hard to see something like that in Spain, but absolutely justified. 









It had a huge reformation some years ago, so it's in a perfect condition.









From here you can see the cross of Valle de los Caídos (see something in the hill above the blue car), one of the few remaining symbols of the dictatorship. 









And we reach the end of A6 entering AP6 (not tolled yet).










*AP6 Collado Villalba - Villacastín*









So we are oficially in AP6.









The untolled stretch is about to end. We have the option to get the old N-6 through a mountain port or follow the tolled AP6 through Guadarrama tunnel.









I have also a video of Guadarrama tunnel. I will edit and upload it later.

Exit to Segovia.









Our final destination is Salamanca, so we take AP51 exit to Avila.










*AP51 Villacastín - Ávila*









As you can see this motorway is almost empty.









We pass next to Avila and take A50 to Salamanca.










*A50/N501 Ávila - Salamanca*









We enjoy A50 for a few kilometers.









However, most of it is still under construction so we have to take N501 instead.









This is likely the most yellowist scenary I have ever passed through.


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## Stifler

Another two days-visit to Salamanca, a town in a different planet than Granada. A medieval town, with one of the oldest universities in Europe, the nicest main square in Spain and a very cool nightlife. A pretty expensive place though.

*A62 Salamanca - Tordesillas*









We take a pretty good motorway thorugh a yellow scenary. I expected to see many Portuguese plates but surprisingly I only saw many French ones.









It starts to rain in the sunny Spain. In the right, there seems to be a kind of artificial stork nests.









Near Tordesillas, we take to keep our North-West route.










*A6 Tordesillas - Benavente*









It might look empty most of the time, but it is a key motorway for NW Spain.









There are quite a lot of service stations in this area.









Close to Benavente, we take A66 since our destination is Asturias.










*A66 Benavente - León*









This motorway is called Ruta de la Plata, because of the ancient path that linked Seville with the Cantabric coast.









Entering Leon province.









A bridge for cattle. It's made this way so they can cross the motorway without being afraid of cars.









Getting close to León.









Time to enter AP66.









*
AP66 León - Campomanes*









The signage already indicates it's a high mountain Autopista.









The terrain is extremely difficult, so lots of curves are expected.









As well as many tunnels too.









We decide to make a quick stop in a resting area to take some photos.









And it wasn't a bad decision since the landscape is gorgeous (although the reservoir doesn't have too much water).









The resting area is fine, and it's usual to see families having a picnic here in the weekends.









Back to the road we can see those zebra-painted curves.









And a pretty cool bridge over the reservoir.









The road keeps going up reaching 1200 masl.









Vegetation here is almost inexistent.









We cross Negrón tunnel, which is over 4km lenght and fixes the limit between Asturias and Castilla and León.

So now we are in my homeland Asturias.









Tunnels keep coming, but you can notice the landscape is greener.









We start going down enjoying a beautiful landscape.









There are some resting areas where we can get very nice pics.









I have always wondered how life must be in that village in the background. It's almost impossible to get there by road.









Soon low dense villages close to the motorway appear. It will be extremely usual in Asturias (in contrast with the compact villages in the plateau).









After paying a pretty expensive toll we are ready to get A66 in Campomanes.









*
A66 Campomanes - Serín*









Pola de Lena is the first small town you see once you are in Asturias. This area is called 'the Asturian coalfield'.









Mieres is the next town in our route. Here you can get AS-I if Gijón is your final destination.









Ten minutes later we are near Oviedo, where A66 acts like an East beltway.









Once we pass Oviedo, we reach the most crowded and oldest stretch in A66 (although today it's pretty empty). It's made of concrete and it's extremely noisy.









We are going down since we are going to the coast.









Time to leave A66 and follow A8 to Avilés.









*
A8 Serín Avilés*









Getting inside the Autovía del Cantábrico.









Big contrasts. Rural area on the left side and heavy industry (steel) in the right one.









After motorway to airport was cuilt, the old stretch that reached Avilés was renamed as AI-81









From the motorway you can already perceive that Avilés is an industrial town.









Home sweet home.


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## Bori427

^^Americans in Granada,seriously???

Which taxes does the Government use for the autopistas and autovías?


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## diegodbs

Bori427 said:


> ^^Americans in Granada,seriously???
> 
> Which taxes does the Government use for the autopistas and autovías?


What do you mean by Americans in Granada???

The taxes that we all pay and the government uses where it is necessary through the Ministry of Transport.


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## Stifler

Bori427 said:


> Americans in Granada,seriously???


I was surprised too, but they were thousands. Mostly female students of Spanish.



Bori427 said:


> Which taxes does the Government use for the autopistas and autovías?


There is no special tax for Autovías and Autopistas. Simply politicians use them as an effective electoral weapon since people seems to see only the advantages of them. 

The Central Government has a budget around 4200 M€ per year until 2020 to accomplish that 94% of the population is at less than 30km from an Autovía or Autopista. Since Spain is a descentralized country, the Autonomus Communities have similar plans to extend the network.

The high speed train is the main bet for the current government though, with nearly 8000M€ per year until 2020.


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## rpc08

Thanks for the photos, Stifler. I'm a fan of the spanish roads 

When is it predicted the beginning of the reform of A-4?


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## miñaterragalega

Skylandman said:


> A few shots from Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> AC-543? Santiago - Noia


AC-543 is the old road. The picture one is new autovía AG-56


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## Aokromes

AP-1 Highway U/C photos by a friend, i wonder why they don't have made a longer tunnel.


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## Stifler

Sad (although expected) news from the construction pace of motorways in Spain. The months after elections are the worst for motorway fans...

Motorway kilometers opened in 2008 in the National Network:
Jan: 55.3 km
Feb: 78.7 km
Mar: 33.8 km
Apr: 5 km
May: 0 km
Jun: 0 km
Jul: 9.9 km
Aug: 10.3 km

A66 is by far the Autovía with the best pace (64.4 new km)

We should add Regional and Local km to get the global figure though.


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## Morsue

Aokromes said:


> AP-1 Highway U/C photos by a friend, i wonder why they don't have made a longer tunnel.


Maybe it's somehow supposed to prevent landslides? I'm not really an engineering expert, but it's hard to tell without having seen the geological composition of the hill before it's being blown away.


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## Booze

To next page


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## Booze

Mallorca's Ma-19 -> Ma -20 and Ma-13 on a saturday afernoon with little traffic






It has no sound as youtube has detected a song I added to the video :nuts:


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ I had the same problem a while ago. But often they just accept their songs are used, and they just notify you.


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## OriK

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nearly nothing. Autopistas have more service areas and less exits and are tolled. I think the toll thing is the biggest difference. Older Autovias are more substandard though, but they are being upgraded.


Once more... Not all Autopistas are tolled.

The difference is that in Autovías the junctions may be directly to the way and in Autopistas are with service ways.


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## Brisbaner21

Spain has an awesome motorway network.


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## Booze

OriK said:


> Once more... Not all Autopistas are tolled.
> 
> The difference is that in Autovías the junctions may be directly to the way and in Autopistas are with service ways.


In Mallorca we have both autopistas and autovias (none is tolled) and you can't really tell the difference. It's a bit weird.


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## x-type

OriK said:


> The difference is that in Autovías the junctions may be directly to the way and in Autopistas are with service ways.


and my friend from Spain old me that at AP there are not (so many) speed controls (at least it worths for A2-AP2 difference)


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## OriK

Booze said:


> In Mallorca we have both autopistas and autovias (none is tolled) and you can't really tell the difference. It's a bit weird.


I've seen motorways like A-40 whose official name is "Autovía de Castilla-La Mancha" but when you join it, you see the Autopista's sign instead of the Autovía's one.

I think that a lot of politicians don't know the difference... or call them Autovías for people to don't think that are toll motorways.

Bye²


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## OriK

x-type said:


> and my friend from Spain old me that at AP there are not (so many) speed controls (at least it worths for A2-AP2 difference)


AP means "Autopista de Peaje" (tolled motorway), the free Autopistas don't use the "AP" prefix. The motorways prefixed by R- also are toll motorways. 

Here people usually use the free alternative so toll motorways are really nice but unused motorways. I have done 50km by one toll motorway without see any other car.

This is why there aren't (usually) radars on AP- or R- motorways (only a few cars, the motorway is secure and there aren't too much accidents) but not always... for example in AP-7 there is a lot of traffic and there are radars

The Spanish fixed radars map: http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/kachoperro/Mapa.htm


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## Seppl

OriK said:


> The Spanish fixed radars map: http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/kachoperro/Mapa.htm


Great link. Thank you. Might be pretty helpful for my next trip to Portugal


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## Le moro tyrannique

c´mon guys, keep this thread updated!

let the pics take it over!


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## Cicerón

Some updates 

S-30 (Santander). More pictures here


CARABAZA said:


> Cambiamos de punto de vista...
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> *Estado de las obras de los tramos Peñacastillo-Cacicedo y Cacicedo-Parbayón
> Autovía Ronda Bahía de Santander (S-30)*
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> *Alsajano & Carabaza*
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> *Viernes, 26 de Septiembre de 2.008*​
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A-60 Valladolid-León, first works near Villanubla Airport in Valladolid.



adcava said:


> Unas fotucas de las obras del tramo Valladolid-Villanubla de la A-60 (perdonad por la calidad)
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AG-53 in Galicia.



enjoy said:


> *OBRAS AG-53 entre Ourense y O Carballiño.
> *
> Otra actualización más de las obras de dos de los viaductos del último tramo de la AG-53. Sigue sorprendiendo el tamaño del viaducto que salva el valle del río Barbantiño: impresionante en longitud y en altura.
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> Cada 500 metros hay algún tipo de obra en la vía; salida de camiones; enlaces; cortes; movimiento de obreros... :drool:


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## Saltillo2006

Amazing......... !!

I have been several times in Madrid ( Im from Saltillo Mexico ) but never paid attention on the M30........ Im amazed ! it is great......

We are years behind that technology in Latin America..... 

wow !

congrats Madrid !!


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## Mateusz

When M50 will be finished ?


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## J N Winkler

*Autopistas versus autovías, signing, etc.*

After reading half of this thread (from page 21 to the most recent posts), I'd like to stick my oar in on a few issues.

On the question of what differentiates an _autovía_ from an _autopista_, an authoritative source is Norma 3.1-IC, the Ministerio de Fomento's official standard for geometric design (the link goes to the version as gazetted in the _Boletín Oficial del Estado_, but there are loads of HTML conversions on the Web). In its glossary, it defines an _autopista_ as a road intended for the exclusive use of motor vehicles which has the following obligatory characteristics:

* No access from abutting properties

* No crossings on the level

* Separate carriageways for each direction of traffic, the separation being effected by a median (or by other means in exceptional cases)

In contrast, an _autovía_ is a road which does not meet all the requirements of an _autopista_ but nevertheless has

* Separate carriageways for each direction of traffic

* Limitation of access from abutting properties

* No crossings on the level

In practice, the main difference (as has already been noted) is that some _autovías_ allow pedestrians, bicycles, and very slow motor vehicles (mopeds etc.) which are not allowed on _autopistas_. However, it seems to be increasingly common to build _autovías_ which are "hidden autopistas" in the limited sense that classes of traffic which would otherwise be allowed on an _autovía_, but not an _autopista_, are nevertheless prohibited by signs on those specific _autovías_. The typical signing treatment is a large white-background sign with prohibitory roundels for pedestrians, bicycles, tractors, and horse-drawn vehicles under "EN AUTOVIA."

On another note, I am not sure that the phrase "Carreteras de gran capacidad" (used by Spanish statisticians) is necessarily limited to _autopistas_ and _autovías_. There is a further classification of high-type road, _vías rápidas_, which can be built almost to _autovía_ standards. _Vías rápidas_ still have their own separate signing scheme and indeed had their own background color (green) for a brief period of time in the mid-1990's.

Norma 3.1-IC specifies separate design classes based on road type (_autopista_, _autovía_, _vía rápida_, and _carretera convencional_) and on design speed (chosen in 20 km/h increments, ranging from 120 km/h down to 40 km/h), but in practice _autopistas_, _autovías_, and _vías rápidas_ are grouped together for purposes of specifying cross-sectional widths and the properties of horizontal and vertical curves, including superelevation and transitions.

Direction signing is nowadays controlled by Norma 8.1-IC, which deals with vertical signing in general (the link goes to the _BOE_ version, but again there are numerous HTML conversions on the Web--though the _BOE_ PDF is of very high quality and includes full-color, pattern-accurate illustrations of the signs). Norma 8.1-IC supersedes the traffic signing catalogue of 1992, which in turn replaced an earlier version dated 1986.

Road classes are distinguished according to color and typeface. Under current standards there is no distinction whatsoever between _autopistas_ and _autovías_, which get blue background and mixed-case Autopista typeface (very similar but not identical to FHWA Series E Modified). _Vías rápidas_ were given green background between 1992 and 2001, and now have just mixed-case Autopista against white background. _Carreteras convencionales_ get Carretera Convencional (sometimes called CCRIGE) against a white background.

In 1986, however, the standards were completely different. _Autopistas_ got blue background, while _autovías_ got white background, and the typeface used for both was straight Series E Modified (not Autopista). An old _autovía_ sign therefore looks very much like a modern _vía rápida_ sign. _Carreteras convencionales_ were then still using white background with the old French L series lettering (L1, old L2 which had thinner letters than modern L1, and L3, which was a vaguely Roman-looking serif typeface).

In some of the pictures posted upthread, it is still possible to see older signs in _vía rápida_ green. I also think the old A-4 signs upthread may predate 1992, when the background color for _autovías_ was still white.

Although much of the Spanish high-capacity road network is essentially brand-new (with more than half of it having been built after 1990, according to the statistical tables posted upthread), motorway plans in Spain are very old. Indeed the AGA in Alcalá de Henares has copies of at least ten _proyectos de construcción_, prepared in the mid- to late 1920's, for various _autopistas_ and _autovías_, including routes from Madrid to Valencia, Gijón to Oviedo, etc. I have been through some of these and haven't seen any systematic distinctions between _autopista_ and _autovía_ proposals which are not eclipsed by the sometimes huge difference in standards between separate schemes. There isn't really anything new about the confusion between _autopistas_ and _autovías_.

While the pictures of Spanish motorways under construction in this thread are truly fantastic, there is now a new source of information. The Ministerio de Fomento now posts the _proyectos de construcción_ for them, on two separate pages--one for the Dirección General de Carreteras and another for the Sociedad Estatal de las Infraestructuras del Transporte Terrestre (SEITT). SEITT is a recently created state-owned entity which handles very large motorway and high-speed rail line construction projects. (I am not sure what criteria are applied in deciding which projects are managed by the DGC and which by the SEITT. Indeed, SEITT is doing one length of the A-23 Autovía de Mudéjar in Huesca province, while the DGC has advertised the next section to the north.)

The files are rather large because Spanish practice is to include the design justifications (_memorias_ and _anejos_) along with the plans (_planos_) and supplementary special provisions (_pliego de prescripciones técnicas particulares_) in a _proyecto_. (In the US, for example, you would expect to see just the plans and special provisions.) This practice dates from 1860 at least, and probably is even older. On the SEITT page, the five _proyectos_ available for download add up to 14.5 GB.

_Proyectos_ started being put online in mid-July and some older projects have been scanned and put online as well, to bring the starting date for online availability back to 17 June. Most of the projects on the DGC page are relatively small, and include two major signing contracts (one in Valencia, Castellón, and Alicante provinces and another on the AP-7 behind Barcelona) and a large number of contracts to build or lengthen speed-change lanes. The latter will address many of the "ramps too short" complaints made upthread.


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## Timon91

^^I can't wait until they also cover North Korea, but I guess that'll take some time :lol:


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## zazo

ChrisZwolle said:


> What about "Avenida de la Paz"?


Avenida de la Paz is the current name of street 30 in the north area, but actually it's the M-30


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## J N Winkler

Barcelona also has a _Fira_, with a cartouche which appears on _autovía_ signs:










Some signs also refer cryptically to a "Zona Franca ZAL"--_zona franca_ being a free trade area while _ZAL_ is the Catalan abbreviation for _zona d’activitats logístiques_ (freight hub?).


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## ChrisZwolle

Isn't the Zona Franca located in that port area below that scenic mountain? (I forgot the name).


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## J N Winkler

ChrisZwolle said:


> Isn't the Zona Franca located in that port area below that scenic mountain? (I forgot the name).


It would seem so (the scenic mountain in question being Montjuïc).


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## ChrisZwolle

Arabic on the M-30 in Madrid:


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## Timon91

Why would they do that in Madrid? I can imagine that they have some Arabian signs on the southcoast, but in Madrid? Is there an Arabic neighbourhood or sth?


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## ChrisZwolle

Moroccans driving to... guess what... Morocco


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## Timon91

It's nice for the Moroccans they already start signing it (in Arabic) from Madrid.


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## diegodbs

ChrisZwolle said:


> Moroccans driving to... guess what... Morocco



Exactly, thousands and thousands of Moroccan cars during the summer drive across Spain to get to Algeciras and from there to Morocco by ferry.


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## runi

Timon91 said:


> It's nice for the Moroccans they already start signing it (in Arabic) from Madrid.


Not only from Madrid, you can see the first sign in Arabic a few km after crossing the border with France


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## Timon91

^^Really? It's good they do that. I've never been to southern France or Spain, so I didn't know :bash:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*M-30 Madrid, eastside*

map:









1.









2. 









3. 









4.









5. 









6. 









7. 









8.









9. 









10.









11.









12. 









13. 









14.









15.









16.









17.









18.









19.









20.









21.









22.









23.









24.









25.









26.









27.









28.









29.









30.


----------



## Mateusz

Any pictures of M-50 ?  I hope it will also built in northern part of Madrid district


----------



## arriaca

ChrisZwolle said:


> Arabic on the M-30 in Madrid:





Timon91 said:


> Why would they do that in Madrid? I can imagine that they have some Arabian signs on the southcoast, but in Madrid? Is there an Arabic neighbourhood or sth?












Moorish people waiting the ship to Morocco in *Algeciras* Harbor, they drive along Spain all years (370.000 cars)


----------



## OriK

ChrisZwolle said:


> *M-30 Madrid, eastside*
> 
> map:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 29.


If you see the map, you'll notice that there are 2 M-30 in the south, one of them (above) is a bypass that skips A-4 and A-42 and is the one that you have taken... and the other is the one have "always" has been there, you can take it following the white signal (the one that is also in Arabic), but it also goes underground a few km ahead (google should have made underground photos better ).


----------



## Timon91

With Google Streetview, road trips have become completely useless....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Only in cities so far


----------



## ChrisZwolle

M-30 Madrid passes under the Vicente Calderón stadium.


----------



## amagaldu

runi said:


> Not only from Madrid, you can see the first sign in Arabic a few km after crossing the border with France





Timon91 said:


> It's nice for the Moroccans they already start signing it (in Arabic) from Madrid.





diegodbs said:


> Exactly, thousands and thousands of Moroccan cars during the summer drive across Spain to get to Algeciras and from there to Morocco by ferry.





Timon91 said:


> ^^Really? It's good they do that. I've never been to southern France or Spain, so I didn't know :bash:


2.677.798 passengers and 709.382 vehicles were ferried to africa 2008. 4,3 % less than 2007. 

1.385.685 passengers and 369.924 vehicles between june the 15th and august the 15th. 3,1% and 4,1% less than 2007 respectively.

5.257 civil and 3.438 medical assistances carried out coordinated by six state departments and more than 32 agencies. The estimated costs amount to 11 millions €.

proteccioncivil.es

Operación Paso del Estrecho 2008


----------



## Dinivan

I wonder what would Madrileños say if Catalans placed their flag in all road signs


----------



## J N Winkler

Cicerón--many thanks for these updates.

Am I correct in thinking that the Toledo southwest bypass is being built by the autonomous community of Castile-La Mancha and will have the number CM-40 when it is finished?


----------



## Cicerón

J N Winkler said:


> Cicerón--many thanks for these updates.
> 
> Am I correct in thinking that the Toledo southwest bypass is being built by the autonomous community of Castile-La Mancha and will have the number CM-40 when it is finished?


:yes:

Yes, this _autovía_ is part of their Plan Regional de Autovías.


----------



## Stifler

Dinivan said:


> I wonder what would Madrileños say if Catalans placed their flag in all road signs


I guess they would said it is stupid, the same all the Madrilians I have talked to think of their new signals.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm not sure if I published these pics. They're from summer 2005.

*AP-2 Lleida - El Vendrell*

The AP-2 is the tolled motorway from Zaragoza to Barcelona. The A-2 is partially a toll-free alternative, so the AP-2 between Lleida and El Vendrell is really quiet.

map:









1. Coming from Lleida onto the AP-2.









2. Next exit is 19 kilometers away.









3. There are no large cities along AP-2 after Lleida.









4. General view off the Autopista.









5. Les Borgues exit ahead.









6. Neat signage, no mess like near some cities.









7. The AP-2 will be this empty until the AP-7.









8. Some rest area.









9. Climbing lane while there's virtually no truck traffic.









10. l'Albi exit.









11. Barcelona still more than an hour away.









12. Montblanc exit. I believe they're planning some motorway here as a shortcut to Tarragona.









13. 100km/h exits, you don't see that too often.









14. There are two possible routes to Tarragona.









15. Valls Exit ahead









16. It's exit 10.









17. Still 92 kilometers to Barcelona.









18. Minor exit. Well.. most exits here are minor exits.









19. Hey there's Tarragona again 









20. View on the coastal mountain range.









21. Some more 3-laned sections of which 2 lanes mostly collect dust.









22. Exit 12 ahead.









23. Note most exits can be driven with 100 km/h.









24. Yeah, Costa de Garraf. Sitges is known as some kind of gay capital (which we found out later  )









25. Gold coast 









26. Nearing the end of AP-2.









27. Almost vintage looking.









28. On the southbound AP-7.









That's the AP-2!


----------



## x-type

nice photos  i have never had feeling that Barcelona - Lleida is more than 150 km actually! it really surprises me (i never measured that). 
i like those signs for beach destinations in Spain 
and about 100 km/h exits - i have noticed them too, but 100 m after 100 km/h sign is 80 km/h and after it there is 60 or 50 km/h. in Spain they like to do it. so those exit ramps are actually not 100 km/h ones, right?


----------



## christos-greece

ChrisZwolle said:


> The road numbering has some logic behind it, but it's too extensive.
> 
> For instance:
> 
> AP -> Autopista (toll usually)
> A -> Autovía (state road)
> C -> Catalunya (comunidad road)
> B -> Barcelona (Provincial road)
> 
> These could all be motorways. Every Comunidad or Province has it's own prefix, resulting in numerous prefixes throughout the country. There's also some overlap, since an A-road can either be an Autovía of the central government, but also an "Andalucía" road, which also can be a motorway-grade road.


Those motorways can merge right, examble B (Provincia road) with Autopista...


----------



## sdf11

Nice work ChrisZwolle!!

The AP-2 is very empty beacause we have to pay to go it!! The A-2 also goes to Barcelona and now it's very nice beacause have a new paviment and it's very confortable to road in it...I'll made some photos of the A2 and also of the A-22!! it is finished between Binefar to Barbastro and it's very nice!!


----------



## sdf11

Here I leave them a picture that I made yesterday!


Ronda Litoral, Barcelona!:cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wow great. That's B-10 right?


----------



## sdf11

ChrisZwolle said:


> Wow great. That's B-10 right?



Yes, it is!!

Always with a lot of traffic.....


----------



## x-type

is that between Estació de França and Barceloneta?


----------



## carlesnuc

x-type said:


> is that between Estació de França and Barceloneta?


yes


----------



## Bitxofo

x-type said:


> is that between Estació de França and Barceloneta?


No, that section is beside Port Olímpic, 1 kilometre before Barceloneta.


----------



## x-type

Bitxofo said:


> No, that section is beside Port Olímpic, 1 kilometre before Barceloneta.


you mean here? if yes, that's what i meant. and i doubt that it is on the other side of tunnel near that Repsol superstation because there is straight road, and on photo is slight right curve. just next to Port Olímpic is that underground part, right?


----------



## Bitxofo

^^I think we meant the same point, but your explanation was not exact because this section is after Port Olímpic and before Torre Marenostrum skyscraper.


----------



## Diego84

*A2*

Every morning I have to drive 60 km. From Barcelona to Igualada across the A2 highway. The part close to Barcelona city has 3 lines and there are a lot of industries and population. Since 7.00 in the morning there are a lot of heavy trucks ands a lot of cars doing the same than me.

There are some photos under these lines.


----------



## Diego84

*THE OLD SPAIN*

IMAGES FROM THE ESPAÑA PROFUNDA...

Across Zaragoza and Soria little villages


----------



## Verso

Diego84 said:


> http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh268/Diego_valde/DSC00834.jpg


What a rock!


----------



## Diego84

This image was taken on the A2 highway. This is situated between Zaragoza and Soria, more ore less, and his zone is very despopulated, there aren't a lot of towns there, the most populated are Ariza and Calatayud. This zone is arid and there are a few raining days.


----------



## jpeter

Can somebody post me a picture from Speed Limits in Spain? Thanks


----------



## Bitxofo

^^Speed limits in Spain:

*Velocidades límite en la conducción de vehículos en España

Las velocidades máximas son las siguientes según el tipo de vía por la que se circula:

* Autopistas y Autovías: 120 km/h.
* Carreteras con un arcén lateral con pavimento de 1,50 m de anchura o más: 100 km/h.
* Resto de vías fuera de poblado o lugar habitado: 90 km/h.
* Vías urbanas y travesías: 50km/h.*

But I must add:
*All Barcelona access roads in Metropolitan Area: 80 km/h.*
:wink2:


----------



## sdf11

AP-66 between Leon and Asturias, this weekend...too bad situation for a pay road....hno::bash:....


----------



## Morsue

AUCALSA (road owners) have apparently never heard of this guy:










Btw, who takes a Ferrari out for a spin on such a day?


----------



## jpeter

i mean this table by border crossing


----------



## Diego84

jpeter said:


> i mean this table by border crossing


I have more images from B-10 RONDA LITORAL. This pictures have been taken this morning when I was travelling between Agbar tower to Igualada when I work.

There were 9.15 in the morning and the traffic jam was disapearing.

Probably the quality of the images isn't as high as the others I have been seeing these days, but this picutres were taken while I was driving.


----------



## Albe®to

A62-European 80(Burgos-Portugal) / A66-European 803 (Gijon-Seville) in Salamanca.










To north.






To south.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Will that roundabout near Téjares A66 - A62/A66 become a full access controlled interchange in the future? I must say the signage here is much better than the messy signs around Madrid/Barcelona we saw before. 

Great video by the way, the snowy landscape is just great.


----------



## Mateusz

How is progress on AP-41 ?


----------



## J N Winkler

The Ministerio de Fomento (or, rather, SEITT) says Merry Christmas. Today's advertisement, the largest in many months, includes four contracts to build new segments of the SE-40 second ring road around Seville. Their aggregate value is about €635 million.


----------



## Cicerón

Mateusz said:


> How is progress on AP-41 ?


Madrid-Toledo is already finished. From Puertollano to Córdoba, the Ministry of Environment rejected the project, but they're doing a new one. Still, we'll have to wait some years to see something.



J N Winkler said:


> The Ministerio de Fomento (or, rather, SEITT) says Merry Christmas. Today's advertisement, the largest in many months, includes four contracts to build new segments of the SE-40 second ring road around Seville. Their aggregate value is about €635 million.


Interesting. The tunnels will have a concrete pavement instead of an asphalt one. Easier maintenance?


----------



## Booze

New anti-motorbike injuries crash barriers at Mallorca's Ma-13. It's the thing underneath the normal metal barrier used to avoid fatal injuries in case someone falls from the motorbike when a crash occurs.










The same point, the other sense










Nearby Palma there are New Jerseys so there's no need










And some more pictures from Ma-13

Steep, 2 lanes only and 50.000 vehicles a day, perfect conditions to crash










Santa Maria del Camí, lateral travelling 



















Maintenance & Monitoring centre for Ma-13 road (central axis)










Puig Major 










Binissalem Wineyards










I liked the car 










Iglesia de Binissalem, detrás el Massanella nevado










PK 25 exit and its Palms, no protection barriers yet at the left side.










Here they are already installed and a Camera surveilling my city's bypass, curiously they warn, "you are in a surveilled area"


----------



## ajch

old map i have in a text book with the road plan 1984-1991 (the firt generation of autovias, the same ones that the goverment is improving now). The map have a few errors, because some final routes changed, but this was what the goverment planned to build.


----------



## Morsue

I'd like to see that picture in a higher resolution.


----------



## ajch

Morsue said:


> I'd like to see that picture in a higher resolution.


I have edited the map with better resolution and also here is a link with the original file (2 mb)

http://www.mediafire.com/?035dh3ghgtq


----------



## runi

Impressive snowstorm in Madrid! The motorways around the capital are practically blocked at this moment. Barajas airport closed!


----------



## Cicerón

^^ M-40.


----------



## Timon91

Looks like the Dutch A2 from last wednesday morning


----------



## Diego84

Does anybody have pictures of Madrid Highways with snow??

Please... put them here!!


----------



## runi

^^ Just a few pics taken from some newspapers (El País, El Mundo and La Razón): 














































Enjoy!


----------



## Morsue

^^ Bienvenidos a España, con sus playas increíbles! Y con un poquiiiiito de nieve... mg:


----------



## AdamChobits

Morsue said:


> ^^ Bienvenidos a España, con sus playas increíbles! Y con un poquiiiiito de nieve... mg:


Yep. Some people wrongly believe that in Spain is always summer and that it never rains or snow.


----------



## Morsue

Spain hosted the alpine skiing world championships in 1996 at Sierra Nevada. Even though it was supposed to be held in 1995 but was cancelled. Why Shortage of snow! 

But really, how often does it snow in Madrid? At least there are some plows.


----------



## Cicerón

Morsue said:


> But really, how often does it snow in Madrid? At least there are some plows.


In the city of Madrid maybe once a year, but not as much as yesterday and the snow rarely settles on the roads. Snow is pretty common in the NW mountains though. For example, it's easy to find snow in Rascafría, Navacerrada, Guadarrama and El Escorial.


----------



## Dasz

Morsue said:


> Spain hosted the alpine skiing world championships in 1996 at Sierra Nevada. Even though it was supposed to be held in 1995 but was cancelled. Why Shortage of snow!
> 
> But really, how often does it snow in Madrid? At least there are some plows.


La Molina ski resort, located in the Pyrenees, hosted this last december two races (slalom & giant slalom) from the FIS world ski cup 2008, also will host 2011 snowboard world cup.

Sierra Nevada had problems to organize the world ski cup in 1995 because of an unusual lack of snow, you have to know that although Sierra Nevada is considered the most southern ski resort in Europe it is located at a very high altitude, the lowest point is at 2100 metres and the highest at 3300.

In Madrid is not very common to see snow because winter isn't a very rainly season, temparatures can be cold, january avarage is about 5 ºC.

Snow is very frequent in higher altitudes (from 1300 or 1500 metres) in the south this altitudes can be slightly higher.
Also is usual to have snow in some capital cities at lower altitudes, specially in the northern territories, some examples are Burgos, Vitoria, Avila, Soria... Where january avarages are between 2 and 3,5 ºC


----------



## zazo

It has snowed 4 days this winter in Madrid city, but only 2 have become the city in a white country.
The city is always hotter than the villages which are around (they use to be white in winter) because of the cars, the roads, the tall buildings and small streets, the subway and the electronic systems (to create hot inside the buldings), so it uses to be more 5 digrees than the rest of the region


----------



## Cicerón

Not related to motorways, but good news anyway: The Spanish government will signalize the Tramos de Concentración de Accidentes (TCAs - Stretches with a high concentration of accidents). Currently there are 776 TCAs, 314 of them are being reformed, the reforms of the other 462 should start before 2012. 1.2 B€ will be spent in four years. Source (in Spanish): http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/CE5B75E0-B886-4996-8F32-199FCB5A37C8/39905/09011301.pdf

The Plan (also in Spanish): http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/B46E93E5-0737-4FCA-9175-20B3897D4439/39912/090113PlanTCA.pdf


These signs will be used from now to the end of the works:



















And now some videos. This is maybe one of the worst TCAs in Spain: The N-232 between Pedrola (Zaragoza) and Cortes (Navarre). The asphalt is OK, there are no dangerous curves, the weather is generally good... but the number of trucks and the local traffic make it the "carretera de la muerte".

















The 54 worst TCAs were analyzed by the Spanish Autopista magazine: Watch the videos here:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6C7C5C1866456781


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I guess that's also why many relatively quiet N-roads are being transformed into Autovías, less accidents.


----------



## LilMocr0

Here are some pictures I took last summer on the A-1/N-1 "Autovia del Norte"


----------



## christos-greece

Snow photos are amazing!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Highways or motorways?

Motorways; somewhere between 13.000 and 14.000 kilometers. It rivals the French and German motorway networks to be the 3rd longest in the world.


----------



## zazo

How many kilometres of highways are in Spain?


----------



## Stifler

Some recently built stretches. Pics from the Ministry of Public Works magazine.

A8 close to Tapia









A8 between Reinante and Barreiros.









Barres junction in A8.









Testing de los Santos bridge. It's exactly the border between the regions of Asturias and Galicia.









A62 close to Portugal.









7.2km straight in A43.









A43 paralel to N-310.


----------



## Morsue

Stifler said:


> Some recently built stretches. Pics from the Ministry of Public Works magazine.
> 
> 7.2km straight in A43.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A43 paralel to N-310.


I have only one thing to say: Meep-meep!


----------



## Timon91

I guess that the police can earn quite a lot of money out of that straight stretch :lol:


----------



## Morsue

There is a similar stretch on the A-92N in Andalucia between the small towns of Cúllar Baza and Chirivel. They have the speed limit posted on large yellow signs together with the text RECUERDE (remember). Once, couldn't fight the temptation and passed the 200 mark... But AFAIK that's not a grave offence under Spanish law. You need to be speeding more than 50 percent above the speed limit, i.e. 210 on a 120 road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Timon91 said:


> I guess that the police can earn quite a lot of money out of that straight stretch :lol:


Oh that's nothing, I noticed a 105 kilometer straight stretch in US 412 in Oklahoma.


----------



## Timon91

Yeah, but this is Europe, Chris. So people tend to drive much faster whenever there is a straight stretch (like people testing their cars on the A31 in Germany or the Afsluitdijk over here). In the Midwest people are used to straight roads.


----------



## Morsue

Also, in Europe roads are engineered to avoid monotony. I just wonder how many people have put their car on cruise control on that stretch in Oklahoma and then checked in for the night (or forever). My favorite stretch of motorway in Spain (and possibly Europe) is the A-31 descent towards Alicante. 120 kmh speed limit but a lot of curves mixed with straights, should really be only a 100 kmh limit. But it's fun to drive.


----------



## Mateusz

I am really impressed how Spain improved their infrastructure... especially Madrid and its ring roads


----------



## Stifler

The longest straight motorway stretch I have driven in Spain was 13km in A4 south of Madrid. No idea if there are longer ones. In general Castilla-La Mancha is full of straight stretches.



Morsue said:


> Once, couldn't fight the temptation and passed the 200 mark... But AFAIK that's not a grave offence under Spanish law. You need to be speeding more than 50 percent above the speed limit, i.e. 210 on a 120 road.


I am afraid authorities have become tougher with speed limits in the last years. You would be fined with €380 at 200kph, and a Spaniard would lose his license if his is caught twice at that speed (it would take away 6 points, and we start with 12 points).












Morsue said:


> My favorite stretch of motorway in Spain (and possibly Europe) is the A-31 descent towards Alicante. 120 kmh speed limit but a lot of curves mixed with straights, should really be only a 100 kmh limit. But it's fun to drive.


Good choice! One of my personal favs as well.


----------



## Mateusz

When M50 possibly will be finished ? Isn't M40 too jammed in northern part of Madrid ?


----------



## deranged

Stifler said:


> I am afraid authorities have become tougher with speed limits in the last years. You would be fined with €380 at 200kph, and a Spaniard would lose his license if his is caught twice at that speed (it would take away 6 points, and we start with 12 points).


How often does the points tally reset to 12?


----------



## Stifler

Mateusz said:


> When M50 possibly will be finished ? Isn't M40 too jammed in northern part of Madrid ?


In 2006 they promised to finish it in 2009 but now the schedule is 2012. Project has already been presented but some NYMBYs have started to make noise in the last months.

That stretch of M40 wasn't too busy in the past but nowadays it's getting more and more jammed because the northern side of the city have experienced a big growth in the last times (4 skyscrapers and +10 to come, lots of headquarters in the outskirts, new neighbourhoods for +200,000 inhabitants...)



deranged said:


> How often does the points tally reset to 12?


I think if you don't do a serious infraction in 3 years it resets but you can collect some points going to courses and so. Maximum is 12 always though.


----------



## Morsue

Stifler said:


> The longest straight motorway stretch I have driven in Spain was 13km in A4 south of Madrid. No idea if there are longer ones. In general Castilla-La Mancha is full of straight stretches.
> 
> I am afraid authorities have become tougher with speed limits in the last years. You would be fined with €380 at 200kph, and a Spaniard would lose his license if his is caught twice at that speed (it would take away 6 points, and we start with 12 points).


OK, then I guess I was lucky.  But does that table really say that you don't have to pay a fine at all if you drive at 132 on a 120 road?


----------



## Stifler

Morsue said:


> But does that table really say that you don't have to pay a fine at all if you drive at 132 on a 120 road?


Right. That's why most of the people drive at 130 

The reason is that no device can measure the speed without error, so they allow a +10% before they fine you. 

They wanted to somehow change this in the future law though.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's only 6 km/h or 5% at 120 km/h in NL.


----------



## Morsue

Stifler said:


> Right. That's why most of the people drive at 130
> 
> The reason is that no device can measure the speed without error, so they allow a +10% before they fine you.
> 
> They wanted to somehow change this in the future law though.


130? On the AP-7 between Barcelona and Valencia 160 seems to be the speed limit. But that's good to know if you ever get in trouble with the law. In 1997 my mother got caught doing 142 on the AP-7 at Peñiscola (weird and distasteful name, btw ) and had to pay a fine of 20,000 pesetas.

Swedish cops have an ambiguous approach. Some let you go 5 kmh over the limit, other 10. 10 percent is decent IMO.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Extreme, TomTom currently reports an *180 kilometer traffic jam* on the A3 from Valencia to Madrid due to snow. 

They also report traffic jams with delays op to 3 hours on regional roads, and a 75 kilometer traffic jam on AP-2 between Lleida and Zaragoza.

They also report snow on the AP-4 between Cadiz and Sevilla, can that be right?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Hmmm I was just reading the internet version of El País, and they're indeed speaking of snow and rain in lower elevations. Andalucía got 90 litres in 12 hours, which is just massive.


----------



## Bori427

^^How can you see the TomTom GPS map in that area???


----------



## J N Winkler

90 liters in 12 hours? I thought rainfall intensity was measured in mm/hr . . .


----------



## ChrisZwolle

J N Winkler said:


> 90 liters in 12 hours? I thought rainfall intensity was measured in mm/hr . . .


They both measure it in mm/hr and liters/sq meter


----------



## city_thing

90 litres in 12 hours? That's almost like the rain Queensland and the Northern territory [in Australia] get during the monsoon months.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, it's also 1/9th of the total Dutch accumulation. 

El País really says it:



> En Andalucía las lluvias podrán acumular hasta 32 litros por metro cuadrado en una hora o *90 litros por metro cuadrado en 12 horas*


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> They both measure it in mm/hr and liters/sq meter


I think litre/sq meter equals mm. So it would be 90mm in 12 hours.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's correct. But let's not turn this thread into a Spanish weather topic


----------



## H123Laci

Stifler said:


>


thats quite cheap fine...

in hungary you have to pay 1000 euro... :bash:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

4 km/h too fast in NL on motorways and you already have to pay € 16. 

The fine starts at 132 km/h in Spain, doing 131 in NL will cost you € 45.


----------



## gincan

ChrisZwolle said:


> Hmmm I was just reading the internet version of El País, and they're indeed speaking of snow and rain in lower elevations. Andalucía got 90 litres in 12 hours, which is just massive.


I don't want to pull this tread out of topic but in spain it is not uncommon with heavy raining, every year there are places that get between 150-200 liters in 12 hours, occasionally 250 liters. It is also not uncommon with extreme showers of 50-60 liters in only one hour. A few years ago north of Valencia it rained 110 liters in just two hour.

Now back to topic...


----------



## Cicerón

ChrisZwolle said:


> This seems like a rather unusual sign..


Quite uncommon indeed. And old, since it depicts the former national roads. The new one should be something like this:



Ambil said:


>





Morsue said:


> ^^ There is another one at the other end of the A-92N, when entering Andalucia from Murcia on the A-91. I guess this road is the pride of Andalucia.





ChrisZwolle said:


> Was the A-92 named after the Expo '92 in Sevilla? I believe this Autovía was build for that very reason...





Morsue said:


> I believe it was. But it wasn't finished in 1992. I only think the part Sevilla-Granada was ready by then. The first time I rode on it was in 1996 coming from Murcia. They were still constructing the A-92N by then, with some 80 kms missing to Puerto Lumbreras (on the present-day A-7) and the flyover at the A-92M wasn't ready either. I don't think they had even started construction on the part between Guadix and Almeria.


You're right :yes: The A-92N (Norte) and A-92M (Málaga) were built later.




gincan said:


> That figure include dual carrigeways with levelcrossings. The latest figure I've seen published by Fomento (late 2008) is somewhere in the range of 12000km of Autopista/Autovía.


According to Fomento's statistics, there were 10,561 km of "vías de gran capacidad" dependent on the Spanish state in 2007, of which 2,479 were tolled _autopistas_, 7,346 _autovías_ and free _autopistas_ and 736 _de doble calzada_ (of dual carriagway). That's 9,825 km of _autopistas+autovías_. Now you have to add those dependent on minor entities (drawn on orange in the map) and the new highways opened in 2008-2009.





sdf11 said:


> Here we are the new A-22 Autovia Lleida-Huesca near Monzon!! That's an amazing road!!:cheers:


Thanks for the pics, mate!



BTW, for those who speak Spanish, there's an interesting article about the new bridge in the Bay of Cádiz, which is 25% built now. Here it is:

http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/6E42A904-B719-425F-A794-271AF45AE447/41331/Ma04_12.pdf


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## Cicerón

Zaragoza and Oviedo have been added to Google Street View! Plus the outskirts of Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia and Seville! And also new cities in Italy, the UK and the Netherlands!

:cheers:


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## Timon91

Do some parts of the Netherlands have Google Street View now? I didn't know that.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Even Abcoude has streetview! Let's find Timon's house!


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## J N Winkler

Cicerón said:


> According to Fomento's statistics, there were 10,561 km of "vías de gran capacidad" dependent on the Spanish state in 2007, of which 2,479 were tolled _autopistas_, 7,346 _autovías_ and free _autopistas_ and 736 _de doble calzada_ (of dual carriagway). That's 9,825 km of _autopistas+autovías_. Now you have to add those dependent on minor entities (drawn on orange in the map) and the new highways opened in 2008-2009.


If the intent is to count all roads which have the design features of motorways (i.e. not just the roads which are identified as motorways for signing purposes), you also have to count the _carreteras convencionales_ which have white-background signs with the Transport-like font but nevertheless have dual carriageways with comprehensive grade separation and access by ramps only (i.e. no frontage access). Fomento has a _proyecto_ out to tender to upgrade the Benidorm bypass to this standard. Judging by photos posted in the other _autovías_ etc. thread, Mallorca has a few of these roads too.



> BTW, for those who speak Spanish, there's an interesting article about the new bridge in the Bay of Cádiz, which is 25% built now. Here it is:
> 
> http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/6E42A904-B719-425F-A794-271AF45AE447/41331/Ma04_12.pdf


I really wish Fomento had been putting _proyectos_ online when that went out to tender. It would have been interesting to read.


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## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Even Abcoude has streetview! Let's find Timon's house!


Abcoude isn't covered.


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## ChrisZwolle

Hmm, one photo icon reads "Abcoude".... Maybe it's the A2 exit.


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## Timon91

What a relief, I'm still save


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## ChrisZwolle

Cool, the suburbs of Madrid also have streetview now, we can check out all those beltways 

Previously, only the M-30 was included on streetview


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## Verso

The only thing I hate is that you move so slowly along a road. It's good to have so many pics, but there could be some possibility that you move some more than just for a few meters. If you move the small human in the right bottom corner, it always turns in wrong direction. Annoying.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, I think the intervals should be longer on motorway (-like roads). I once tried to get all of the M-30 but I was getting tired from clicking half an hour to get like 10 km further.


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## ChrisZwolle

Typical Spanish 4-lane roundabout near Madrid. The roundabout is situated on top of a freeway.


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## Nolke

Avientu said:


> ^^ That doesn't really mean anything, Portugal has some kick ass autopistas too, that one is just probably very old...


That's right, the international bridge and I suppose also the Portuguese motorway (A22 through Algarve) date back to the last 80's and first 90's while the last strecht of the A-49 in the Spanish side was finished in 2003.


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## willo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Typical Spanish 4-lane roundabout near Madrid. The roundabout is situated on top of a freeway.


that's an M-45 exit at Ensanche de Vallecas. I pass by there sometimes when i drive back home from university


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## disbesa

New section of "Autovía del cantábrico" (E-70 / A-8) opened this 3rd of April. Stretch Las Dueñas - Novellana: 7,2 km. long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32yLlc_eOGs


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## Verso

^^ Beautiful!  I also drove on E70 today, but on the other side of Europe.


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## disbesa

Another opening (6th April), this time in the Basque Country. Autopista AP-1, stretch Luko-Eskoriatza including tunnel 3,3 km. long (longest in the region).

http://www.eitb.com/videos/detalle/124024/se-inaugura-tramo-autopista-va-eskoriatza-luko/


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## Cicerón

Let's bump this with a lot of pictures 

Special thanks to adcava 

A-8 in western Asturias:



adcava said:


> Aquí va una tanda fotos de las obras de la autovía del Cantábrico en el concejo de Cudillero. Primero, la ida del tramo Muros-Las Dueñas-Lamuño:
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> Vamos a desviarnos por la N-632a en Las Dueñas para seguir viendo cosas
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> Recordamos cómo antes (no hace más de 15 años) había que ir al occidente:
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> Volvemos a ver la N-632 y los desmontes al fondo
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> Y vemos el inicio del viaducto de la Concha de Artedo
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> Bajo él, trabajos de cimentación de las pilas del enorme viaducto que ira muy pegado a él
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> Seguimos bajando y vemos el viaducto de la línea Gijón-Ferrol
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> Cogemos ahora la carretera que nos lleva a Lamuño y Salamir. En el lado este, ya está preparado el estribo y encofrándose la primera pila del nuevo viaducto. Notad la diferencia de altura y la posición. Insisto, va a quedar muyy pegado al actual, creo que incluso puede que los voladizos queden encima de este.
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> Continuará...





adcava said:


> Sigamos
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> Atravesando los pueblos de Lamuño y Salamir, nos dirigimos a San Pedro
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## Cicerón

VA-30 and A-60 in Valladolid.



adcava said:


> Unas fotos de hace una semana de las obras de la VA-30 a su paso por el polígino San Cristóbal. No aportan mucho, la verdad, pero vemos así las obras desde otro punto de vista
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> Trabajos para el enlace con la carretera de Segovia





adcava said:


> Aquí van unas fotos de hace unos días del tramo Valladolid-Villanubla de la A-60, tomadas desde el Alsa. El avance es poco significativo, las estructuras se van acabando lentamente y la plataforma aun le quedan zonas por excavar y/o rellenar:
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## Aokromes

AP-1 Gasteiz-Eskoriatza:








Entrada a los tuneles de 3 kms.


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## Morsue

Aokromes said:


> It's planed to open the gap on 3 days.


Why would they want to open the gap?


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## ajch

building of new Ap-46 (toll freeway) near total stop.

from local newspaper
http://www.diariosur.es/20090601/malaga/paron-obras-autopista-prolonga-20090601.html

building companies without money and bank cutting the credit, from near 1000 workers one year ago to under 50 workers today.

And finish date, sure is that they are not going to finish for end 2009. So now the companies want the "state" to come to help them.

I only hope that we don't end paying for the building and after the freeway is finished, pay again for the right of use.


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## jaimebeneyto

Hello all!
I've been reading the forum for some months now and consider I'm now ready to post. I'm an 18-year-old spanish new driver and have taken so far some pictures of our motorway network here in Spain.

I hope you enjoy them!

A-3





































AP-7



















R-3










M-50


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## Timon91

Great pics!

I just returned from a short citytrip to Barcelona. I didn't really see many motorways, but I was able to make a few pics. I'll post them later.


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## wyqtor

This is what I would call information overload. The signs look almost ridiculous with all the numbers and destinations in all kinds of font sizes - more like a joke than anything else.


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## zazo

wyqtor said:


> This is what I would call information overload. The signs look almost ridiculous with all the numbers and destinations in all kinds of font sizes - more like a joke than anything else.


So, how would you inform people the way to take the 10 next highways (in Madrid there are lots of highways in a very small area) in places with dozens of highways it's the only way, in places with only one you only show one number (because there's no population or countries with no money).
About the font.. there's only one font, where have you seen more? the size changes because of the long names of the villages.
You don't live in Europe, do you?


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## jaimebeneyto

Well, I'd say wyqtor is right but just about the first picture. That picture was taken when the A-3 separates into A-3 and A-31, and the signs are quite confusing. What I understand with such a sign is: A-3 continue straight; A-31 turn right

The first picture of the M-50 has good signage. Take into account that Madrid has LOTS of motorways, and you have to sign them in some way. The logic behind the sign is quite simple:

In the first line you have the name of the motorway you are driving in: M-50
The second line shows the next exit to a motorway: A-5 which ends at Badajoz (E-90 is the european marking of the A-5)
The third and forth lines show the next exits to motorways in order, first it's R-5, then A-42 and so on.

It's quite logic


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## Mateusz

Is that new road around north of Madrid, called R-1 ?


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## ChrisZwolle

There is a bit of overkill sometimes.

For instance, on the A-3, Valencia, Alicante, Albacete and Murcia are signed. For the sake of less-is-more, only Valencia and Alicante should be signed there.

Same for road numbers, why sign all radial roadnumbers in advance? This automatically leads to messy signs loaded with road numbers which are not relevant yet. I would stick to the first radial number, and if you reach that one, sign the next one, and not the next 5 radial roads. 

Overkill - less is more.


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## OriK

^^

Those A-3 signals are terrible but I think that the M-50 ones are correct.

They tell you that you are driving in the correct way, it's only showing about 15 or 20 km in advance. Other motorways shows you the most important cities in your way, but M-50 is a circular motorway, so the signals tell you the most important roads in your way.


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## jaimebeneyto

^^ The R-1 is in proyect, I don't think it's even under construction yet, but I'm not sure. Maybe you refer to the M-607 which is 30km long and leads to Colmenar Viejo. The M-607 cannot be called a motorway, it doesn't meet the requierements, sharp turns, short enter/exit lanes, it's a dual carriegeway i'd say (autovía).

^^ I do certainly agree that Murcia and Albacete should appear on that sign, but not in that confusing way, I would arrange the sign this way:

[ [E-901][A-3] ] [ [A-31] ]
[ ] [ Albacete ]
[ Valencia ] [ Alicante ]
[ ] [ Murcia ]
[ ^ ^ ] [ ^ ^ ]


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## jaimebeneyto

^^ The R-1 is in proyect, I don't think it's even under construction yet, but I'm not sure. Maybe you refer to the M-607 which is 30km long and leads to Colmenar Viejo. The M-607 cannot be called a motorway, it doesn't meet the requierements, sharp turns, short enter/exit lanes, it's a dual carriegeway i'd say (autovía).

^^ I do certainly agree that Murcia and Albacete should appear on that sign, but not in that confusing way, I would arrange the sign this way:

[.....[E-901].[A-3].....]..[.......[A-31]......]
[.............................]..[.....Albacete.....]
[........Valencia..........]..[.....Alicante......]
[.............................]..[.......Murcia......]
[.......^.........^........]..[......^......^......]


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## OriK

^^

Yes I like it more than the oficial one, but you are signaling 4 lanes and there are only 3 ... :S


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## jaimebeneyto

^^ Yes you're right, on that picture there are only 3 lanes, but 500m further a forth lane appears


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## Cicerón

Mateusz said:


> Is that new road around north of Madrid, called R-1 ?


Nope, the R-1 is not finished yet (in fact I think that the construction has not even started).



About the signage discussion: Yes, it sucks near big cities and junctions. 

This is an example: As you can see, when there are only three lanes, the middle one can be used for any destination so the upper sign mixes both directions. 500 meters later you can see two separate signs:




















And this is the proposal I made some years ago. It should say "Soria" instead of "Tarazona" though:










BTW, some pictures of the A-15/SO-20 near Soria. The oldest part of the SO-20 (Soria's ringroad) is a divided road and the newest one is an _autovía_. Notice the *Sur 9 | Oeste 12 | Norte 14* sign.





Whitetower Soria said:


> *Estado de las obras a 14 de junio de 2009​*
> *Tramo Soria - Los Rábanos (A-11). Denominado SO-20 "Circunvalación"*
> 
> Las obras van a buen ritmo pero, como siempre, creo que van "pillados" de tiempo, más aún teniendo en cuenta que las previsiones meteorológicas dan lluvia para principios de semana.
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> Yo pienso que se cumplirá la promesa del Subdelegado del Gobierno de la apertura "antes de San Juan" pero muy pegada a ese día. Yo apuesto por el *22, 23 ó 24 de junio.*
> 
> Ahora mismo, todo el lado sentido Soria tiene ya capa de rodadura (se ha echado esta semana). A lo largo de la próxima semana se echará en el lado sentido Madrid.
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> Lo que también se ha hecho es corregir la denominación "A-15" de los pórticos y banderolas sentido Madrid, poniendo encima una pegatina de vinilo con el texto "SO-20" (veáse el antes y después):
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> Dentro de Soria, en las antiguas travesías de la N-111 (llamada N-111a) y N-234 se han sustituido los pórticos y banderolas que ponían "N-111 Logroño resto direcciones" y "N-111 Medinaceli Madrid". Algunos databan de principios de los 80`s
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## Mateusz

These amounts of different roads are overkill

What, is there R1 to be planned, will it be like 25 roads coming from Madrid


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## jaimebeneyto

The R-1 is still in proyect as I've read from Wikipedia, it will be 25km long

And the radial freeway network from Madrid looks as follows, clockwise:

M-607___30km as autovía
A-1_____480km 
R-2_____81km
A-2_____611km
R-3_____34km
A-3_____352km
A-4_____668km
R-4_____88km
A-42____78km
AP-41___72km
R-5_____28km
A-5_____408km
M-501___48km as autovía
M-503___20km as autovía
A-6_____595km

We have the 6 "A" autovías and 9 shorter autovías and autopistas. All together they are 3540km long (3114+426)


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## Timoth12

The number of highways is truly amazing. 
How about Madrid rings M30, M40, M45 and M50, are they all autopistas and autovias?


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## jaimebeneyto

Madrid rings are toll-free autopistas (motorways). 

From those 4 rings, the only true ring is the M-40. All others are not a complete ring, or not always up to motorway standards. The M-30 at Avenida de la Ilustración has traffic lights and speed limit is 50 km/h

M-30: 30km as motorway, speed limit is 90km/h on surface and 70km/h in tunnels. As a fact I'll say that the huge bypasses and tunnels of the M-30 are being paid through speeding tickets. A lot of controversy arose when the tunnels were limited to 70km/h, being completely new, state-of-the-art tunnels. There are 16 speed control points. The M-30 is also famous for being the only town hall-owned motorway in Spain. 
The eastern side of the M-30 is the spanish most used road. It has 4 carriageways and up to 12 lanes.

M-40: 63km long, completely circular. General speed limit is 100km/h on surface and 80km/h inside tunnels

M-45: 45km, 1/4 of a circle. It fills the gap between M-40 and M-50 in the southeast of Madrid. It is also considered as the best road in Madrid regarding traffic flow and security. Speed limit is 120km/h on surface and 100km/h in tunnels.

M-50: 85km, almost a full circle. The gap missing between A-6 and A-1 will consist of a series of tolled tunnels. Speed limits are the same as in M-45


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## lpioe

Is the missing gap of the M-50 really necessary?
Taking the M-40 isn't a big detour (max 15km) and it woulnd't serve many additional cities. Additionally it will be very expensive with all the tunnels.
Or is it built more to relieve the M-40?


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## Mateusz

Great thanks  Images are enough in this case


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## Motorways

Guys, in your opinion, what´s the spanish highway network main lack?

For me, and i just realize of this not long ago, Spain has a great and extensive network, but now has come the time to make the main highways not just with two lanes per way when entering the main cities, but at least three lanes per way.

Las time i returned by the A5, not the busiest entrance to Madrid, on a Sunday night, we were totally stuck from the KM 80 till Mardrid, and that highway is just 2 lanes per way until you are 14 km away from Madrid.

That a shame, that kind of roads in cities such as Madrid and Barcelona should have at least three lanes if not four since at least 50 - 100 kms away the city, and in cities such as Valencia or Seville since at least 30 kms away.

That´s how i see it.

What do you think?


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## ChrisZwolle

I do not have Spanish traffic volume statistics, so I can't really say anything about it, but I guess you're right.


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## OriK

Motorways said:


> Guys, in your opinion, what´s the spanish highway network main lack?
> 
> For me, and i just realize of this not long ago, Spain has a great and extensive network, but now has come the time to make the main highways not just with two lanes per way when entering the main cities, but at least three lanes per way.
> 
> Las time i returned by the A5, not the busiest entrance to Madrid, on a Sunday night, we were totally stuck from the KM 80 till Mardrid, and that highway is just 2 lanes per way until you are 14 km away from Madrid.
> 
> That a shame, that kind of roads in cities such as Madrid and Barcelona should have at least three lanes if not four since at least 50 - 100 kms away the city, and in cities such as Valencia or Seville since at least 30 kms away.
> 
> That´s how i see it.
> 
> What do you think?


You are probably right, the problem is that these motorways are very old and is very hard to improve them because there are a lot of buildings next to the road and/or they are very busy and it's not easy to do the works safely and without cause a trafic jam of hundreds of km, but they are trying!, A-42 is one of such radial and busy motorways, it have 3 lanes (+ 2 service lanes in some places) from Madrid to the kp 17 (and are very narrow because it had not enough space when was expanded) and they are going to re-build it underground.


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## Stifler

Out of the 6 radial motorways in Madrid, only A6 has 3-4 lanes per way in the first 100 km.

In the rest, there are only 20-30 km of 3-lanes, so it makes big traffic jams on holidays and so.


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## Cicerón

As far as I know, the plan for refurbishing the first generation _autovías_ includes new lanes reserved for public transport and a widening from 2+2 to 3+3 in the first kilometres.


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## hoosier

Except in certain dense corridors, interstate highways in the U.S. are 2X2 until a few miles outside of the metro area.

Having 3X3 highways 50-100 km outside of a major city is a VERY expensive proposition. But in Europe, and especially Spain, they invest the money to have a top rate infrastructure.


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## ChrisZwolle

US traffic volumes usually drop to 20,000 - 30,000 immediatly after you leave the metropolitan area. Intercity traffic is low compared to Europe, many German Autobahns have 60,000 - 80,000 on intercity roads, and Dutch and British roads are even topping 100,000 on rural roads. 

I guess Spain falls somewhere in between. I don't actually have any AADT stats of Spain unfortunatly.


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## Stifler

Madrid regional government has an interesting tool to show AADTs (in Spanish IMD or Intensidad Media de Tráfico).
http://gestiona.madrid.org/cartografia/visorCarreteras/html/web/index.htm

Or you can download the report in PDF at the end of this text:
http://www.madrid.org/cs/Satellite?...Estructura&pid=1109265444699&sm=1109266100977 (only data for Madrid owned motorways available)

A1
14km: 122,500
22km: 104,000
41km: 55,000
76km: 28,000
88km: 29,000

A2
13km: 121,000
19km: 150,000
29km: 73,000
38km: 4?,000 

A3
13km: 135,000
16km: 58,000
47km: 35,000

A4
No data?

A5
24km: 75,500
32km: 61,000

A6
21km: 101,500
28km: 89,000
38km: 87,000
45km: 44,000

It has to be noted that A6 is mainly 3x3 and that users of A2, A3, A4 and A5 can use the empty tolled alternatives of R2, R3, R4 and R5.


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## ChrisZwolle

Exit 1143


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## Verso

^^ That's because it's so long.


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## ChrisZwolle

Repost, pics from Picasa don't work again (sometimes, Google does suck)


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## Mateusz

Highest in Spain I saw is 900 or something


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## Cicerón

It's funny that the exits in the AP-7 are numbered from the French border to the south, but in the A-7 they're numbered from Algeciras to the north (as in the N-340).

BTW, when the A-7 is finished, it will be 1,330 km long according to Wikipedia.


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## Boltzman

It's more bizarre even:

AP-7 and A-7 run (or will run) parallel for a big strecht (hundreds of km). AP-7 is numbered from the French border, to its terminus at Alicante.

I'm not sure, but from Alicante to Murcia, the motorway is tagged as A-7 but the mileage continues from the French border (explanation: this strecht was built before the A-7 after Murcia). There is another AP-7 which branches out from A-7 but doesn't arrive to Murcia, but to Cartagena, and finish there -although AP-32 starts from Cartagena and meets A-7 again-.

After Murcia the A-7 is decreasing mileage... The A-7 starts at Algeciras but the mileage starts some 100 km before, at Cádiz; as it does N-340. The motorway -under construction- from Cádiz to Algeciras won't be A-7, but A-48. May be the Government is waiting the A-7 to be completed to re-number all the mileage -at present, there is a minor strecht with no motorway at Granada province-.


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## ChrisZwolle

Actually, AP-7 doesn't terminate at Alicante, it runs straight to Vera, and there is another section between Málaga and Guadiaro. Total length: 1007 km. 

A-7 fills in the gap between Algeciras and Guadiaro, Málaga to Vera, and runs parallel to other sections of AP-7, usually somewhat further inland, especially between Alicante and Valencia, where it runs significantly further inland than AP-7. 

I also doubt if A-7 will ever run north of Barcelona (sources say it runs to the French border at La Jonquera), I think A-2 will run along that section north of Barcelona.


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## x-type

generally, those AP and A things are hell complicated


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## ChrisZwolle

If you think thát is complicated, you should really dig into the Spanish numbering system. :lol:

It's by far more complicated than that, road numbers can have up to 4-digits, there can be dozens of prefixes and a significant number of suffixes.

How about "TV-1084z"?


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## Cicerón

ChrisZwolle said:


> I also doubt if A-7 will ever run north of Barcelona (sources say it runs to the French border at La Jonquera), I think A-2 will run along that section north of Barcelona.


Yep, that will be the A-2 :yes:



x-type said:


> generally, those AP and A things are hell complicated





ChrisZwolle said:


> If you think thát is complicated, you should really dig into the Spanish numbering system. :lol:
> 
> It's by far more complicated than that, road numbers can have up to 4-digits, there can be dozens of prefixes and a significant number of suffixes.
> 
> How about "TV-1084z"?


:lol:

Yeah, some Autonomous communities have weird numbering systems. Catalonia and Castile & Leon, for instance, still use those "P" and "V" after the province code (what do they mean? P for "provincial" and V for "vecinal"?)

Hell, look at these:
BP-1503ant (for antigua, old)
BP-1503var (for variante, turnoff)

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Carreteras_de_las_Diputaciones_Provinciales_de_Cataluña


Fortunately my region uses a simpler system:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Carreteras_de_La_Rioja



BTW, the Dutch Army is invading Spain! 




In HD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nduJfaWLDIw


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## Sponsor

Those movies are great. Clicks twice so that you'll be directed to youtube and then watch on HD.


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## Majestic

ChrisZwolle said:


> Those who were injured didn't wore seatbelts... which is required in Spain (and other countries too). Kinda like their own fault, as far as I heard it here on the radio. It's still a tragedy though.


I have never seen a bus or a coach equipped with seatbelts.


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## ChrisZwolle

This one did. I think all coaches serving countries where seatbelts are required have seatbelts installed.

The bus driver was Spanish, had 16 years experience, rested 19 hours before the trip, didn't drive too fast (preliminary), the bus was only 2 years old and the driver didn't have any alcohol.


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## Cicerón

Sad news. Rest in peace.


I bring more SE-40, these ones are from the tunnel under the Guadalquivir river:



pek said:


> Hola a todos, soy nuevo en el foro, llevo leyéndoos mucho tiempo para ver cómo iba el avance de estas obras.
> 
> He decidido registrarme porque he encontrado en un foro unas imágenes que creo que pueden ser interesantes y no las he visto por aquí. Os dejo el enlace al foro y las fotos.
> 
> Saludos.
> 
> Foro


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## ChrisZwolle

8 lanes, sweet! 

The Spaniards know what motorway construction is


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## J N Winkler

These drawings are taken from the _proyectos de construcción_ for 48-SE-4520A and 48-SE-4520B. They can be downloaded in full here:

http://www.seitt.es/SEITT/LANG_CASTELLANO/CONTRATACION/LICITACIONES_OBRAS/20081039-C.htm

http://www.seitt.es/SEITT/LANG_CASTELLANO/CONTRATACION/LICITACIONES_OBRAS/20081040-C.htm

They are fun to read once you have downloaded them--which takes a while; they are over 3 GB each.


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## ABRob

Reivajar said:


> A present.  I hope you like it.
> 
> Note: maybe there are some mistakes. Any correction or advice will be always welcome.


Is there a up-to-date version of this map?





J N Winkler said:


> These drawings are taken from the _proyectos de construcción_ for 48-SE-4520A and 48-SE-4520B. They can be downloaded in full here:
> 
> http://www.seitt.es/SEITT/LANG_CASTELLANO/CONTRATACION/LICITACIONES_OBRAS/20081039-C.htm
> 
> http://www.seitt.es/SEITT/LANG_CASTELLANO/CONTRATACION/LICITACIONES_OBRAS/20081040-C.htm
> 
> They are fun to read once you have downloaded them--which takes a while; they are over 3 GB each.


Nice.

Are there other (interesting) project-data available on the website (on this overview-page)? It seem's so, but I can't speak Spanish, so I can't tell...


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## J N Winkler

Yup, there are some interesting projects. Decoding ring: the file number ("Expediente") will end with a letter. C = roadway, F = railway. The SEITT file number is not the same as the Ministerio de Fomento "clave" (key number).

Some of the projects which still have documentation available on the SEITT site include:

* A-2 Barcelona-French border (Medinyá-Orriols length)

* A-44 Autovía Sierra Nevada (Santa Fe-Las Gabias)

* A-32 Linares-Albacete (two lengths: Villacarrillo bypass and Torreperogil-Villacarrillo)

* Extension of Autovía del Baix Llobregat

* A-8 Autovía del Cantábrico (Otur-Villapedre)

* At least one other length of SE-40 (there are actually four major projects going on now which involve SE-40: trans-Guadalquivir tunnel, tunnel west portal to Almensilla, Almensilla to A-49/E-1 interchange, and A-49/E-1 widening west of Seville through the SE-40 interchange)

The main Fomento projects page is here:

http://www.fomento.es/MFOM/LANG_CAS...RRETERAS/concursos_obras/servicios_centrales/

The easiest way to pick out the big contracts is just to look for the high estimates. It includes stuff both big and small, and my personal favorites among the smaller stuff are the signing contracts (_señalización_). I think there is at least one (maybe two) lengths of the A-23, at least one length of the A-11 Autovía del Duero, etc. The most ambitious and expensive contract in there (at €207 million) is an extension of the MU-30 Murcia ring road with (if I remember right) at least two pergolas to carry the road over an irrigation canal at extreme skew angles. (No other country seems to love pergolas as much as the Spanish.)


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## disbesa

There has been some recent openings at the end of this month.

A-43: Stretch Villarrobledo -N 301 (between Albacete & Cuenca regions) 24, 675 km. long.
A-66: "Autovía de la Plata" stretch Montejo - Guijuelo 13,1 km. long.
A-67: "Autovía de la Meseta" - 3 stretches covering Santillana de Campos & Alar del Rey, which finally completes fully this Autovia between Palencia & Torrelavega (183 km. in total).

A-7: "Autovía del Mediterráneo" stretch La Herradura - Taramay (Granada) 9,1 km. long.

Some pics of this last one:


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## disbesa

Repeated post. Sorry.


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## Cicerón

The A-67 is now totally opened.



CARABAZA said:


> A-67 Cantabria-Meseta
> Alar del Rey-Herrera de Pisuerga-Villaprovedo​
> *Reportaje Buenolarralberto & Carabaza (parte 2)*
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> Otro área de descanso... de aspecto un poquitín más arbolado que el de Herrera ...




More pictures here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=382068&page=17


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## ChrisZwolle

Amazing..

The midwest of Spain...


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## Cicerón

I've downloaded the project for the A-12 + LO-20 connection here in Logroño:









(Click here for the detailed maps)

Apparently they're going to build the bridge in one side of the river, and then to _slide_ it over the water, in order not to affect the bed :nuts:. Sorry if there are too many pictures in this page (and sorry for the size too), but I have to post it


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## Ali_B

Spanish highways are of top quality, they only lack good rest areas with al needed facilities, whoch are only to be fount on tolled highways. So it's quite hard to driver several hundred kilometers on Spanish highways without heving those facilities which are provided on German, Belgian, French and Dutch highways.

I don't it think it would be a good idea to drive for example from Burgos (end of tolled highway section) via Valladolid and Meseta Highway till Sevilla ...


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## msz2

Nice Spanish motorways. But I have a question to you. So far you have built 14000km of autopistas and autovias, do you have further plans to build more?


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## Gölem II

Ali_B said:


> Spanish highways are of top quality, they only lack good rest areas with al needed facilities, whoch are only to be fount on tolled highways. So it's quite hard to driver several hundred kilometers on Spanish highways without heving those facilities which are provided on German, Belgian, French and Dutch highways.
> 
> I don't it think it would be a good idea to drive for example from Burgos (end of tolled highway section) via Valladolid and Meseta Highway till Sevilla ...


I don't really understand you, each some kilometres in every highway there is a rest area, as simply that every bus line has to stop each 2 hours (the law) in a rest area, so..... 

what are needed facilities for you?, a bed, a shower?---->h-o-t-e-l ¬_¬


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ gas stations


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## Gölem II

msz2 said:


> Nice Spanish motorways. But I have a question to you. So far you have built 14000km of autopistas and autovias, do you have further plans to build more?



Yes, just to connect everywhere with everywhere, but it's not easy.. because a highway in Spain means: lots of tunnels, lots of bridges, lots of bioways, etc, etc, etc, expensive not.... the next (mountains everywhere)

The future highways are the light ones of this map: (the spanish plan of highways 2005-2020)


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## Gölem II

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ gas stations


gas station is not a rest area in spanish laws..it's just a gas station (but sometimes they are together), and they use to be each 20-50 km


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## ChrisZwolle

The interior of Spain, between Madrid and the east/south coast still doesn't have a very dense network of motorways... which means long travels on Carretera Nacionales, but there are also few large places that would warrant a motorway. 

For instance, there's not much between places like Badajoz and Ciudad Real, or Jaén and Albacete.


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## msz2

Gölem II said:


> Yes, just to connect everywhere with everywhere, but it's not easy.. because a highway in Spain means: lots of tunnels, lots of bridges, lots of bioways, etc, etc, etc, expensive not.... the next (mountains everywhere)QUOTE]
> 
> How many kilomiter would you like to have until 2020?


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## ChrisZwolle

> A 31 de diciembre de 2007 la red de vías de alta capacidad estaba compuesta por 14.689 km


I'm not sure if this figure also includes regular 4 lane roads... "vías de alta capacidad" (roads of high capacity)

It ought to be around 15.000 kilometers now, which should mean there's not so much discussion anymore if the Spanish system is equal or larger than France/Germany's system. The Spanish system is clearly larger, and also growing (much) faster, so it's the 3rd largest in the world.


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## msz2

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm not sure if this figure also includes regular 4 lane roads... "vías de alta capacidad" (roads of high capacity)
> 
> It ought to be around 15.000 kilometers now, which should mean there's not so much discussion anymore if the Spanish system is equal or larger than France/Germany's system. The Spanish system is clearly larger, and also growing (much) faster, so it's the 3rd largest in the world.


Who's first and second?


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## ChrisZwolle

The United States is first at nearly 100.000 kilometers of freeway-grade roads. Second is China.


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## runi

What about the autovía A-50 between Avila and Salamanca? Is it already finished?


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## Cicerón

^^ Yes, it's totally opened since the last month.


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## pepin0

In Spain nowadays we need more highways, especially in comunities like Aragon, Castilla la Mancha......Aragon need a new A-68 for N-232 (really sucks....) and a highway between Zaragoza-Castellón (also to update N-232)


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## msz2

Ok, but how many kilomiter are you going to have until 2020?


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## Mateusz

Probably like 3k motorways and over 12k of expressways


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## Stifler

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm not sure if this figure also includes regular 4 lane roads... "vías de alta capacidad" (roads of high capacity)
> 
> It ought to be around 15.000 kilometers now, which should mean there's not so much discussion anymore if the Spanish system is equal or larger than France/Germany's system. The Spanish system is clearly larger, and also growing (much) faster, so it's the 3rd largest in the world.


That figure seems to include "carreteras de doble calzada", which are considered high capacity roads in the Spanish system but lack some motorway features. Their number nowadays is around 1,500 km (getting lower every year since they are being upgraded into motorways), so Spain must have around 13,500 km of motorways.


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## Stifler

msz2 said:


> Ok, but how many kilomiter are you going to have until 2020?


Something in the 15,000-17,000 range.


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## Stifler

Winter has been boring in terms of motorway openings, but spring and summer have brought us several new open streches:

*A-15*
Los Rábanos-Soria (7.9km)

*A-22*
Ponzano-El Pueyo (10.7km)

*A-43*
Villarobledo-San Clemente (25km)

*A-44*
Izbor-Velez de Benaudalla (10km) MOTORWAY COMPLETED

*A-50*
Encinas de Abajo-Salamanca (15.3km) 
Ventosa-Encinas de Abajo (5.3km) MOTORWAY COMPLETED

*A-66 *
Montejo-Guijuelo (13.1km)
Río Duero-Zamora Sur (11.7km)

*A-67 *
Santillana de Campos-Alar de Rey (38.6km) MOTORWAY COMPLETED

*LU-11*
Nadela-Tolda (4.5km)

*S-30*
Peñacastillo-Cacicedo (4.1km)

So that makes *146.2km* so far in 2009.
NOTE: This figure is only for state-owned motorways. Regional and local governments do build and own infraestructures too, but it's almost impossible to get the updated figure.


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## msz2

^^Could you post a photos of such a motorway built by local authorities?


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## ChrisZwolle

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Autovías_urbanas_de_España

Here's a whole list.


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## Nephasto

msz2 said:


> ^^Could you post a photos of such a motorway built by local authorities?


There are just like the ones built by the central government.


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## Gölem II

msz2 said:


> ^^Could you post a photos of such a motorway built by local authorities?


Those pics are on this forum.
Motorways are only built by the central goverment (the plan 2005-2020) or by the goverments of the autonomous comunities (like states) so 15.000 km of highways have been planned by CENTRAL goverment, the other 19 autonomous territories build their own highway system which change every day, so it's not possible to know how many kilometres will be in Spain in 2020 (it's possible that the president of Andalucía build 2000 new kilometres of no planed highways...)


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## Cicerón

Stifler said:


> Winter has been boring in terms of motorway openings, but spring and summer have brought us several new open streches:
> 
> [...]


Don't forget the A-7! 




ChrisZwolle said:


> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Autovías_urbanas_de_España
> 
> Here's a whole list.


Actually that's the list of the urban highways, some of them are owned by the central government.

This is the list for the ones built by the regional authorities:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:...a#Autopistas_y_autov.C3.ADas_auton.C3.B3micas



Nephasto said:


> There are just like the ones built by the central government.


Exactly. The geometrical parametres, lane width etc. are the same for all Spain and for tolled or untolled highways, no matter who is paying the _autovía/autopista_. Maybe the only difference, is that the median is 10m wide in most of the State-owned highways (so that it can be easyly widened to 3+3), while in some regional highways it's narrower.



msz2 said:


> ^^Could you post a photos of such a motorway built by local authorities?


Some of them have been posted in this thread already, but here you have a sample. You can see the "Red de Carreteras del Principado de Asturias", instead of "Red de Carreteras del Estado" (used for State-owned highways and roads).



CARABAZA said:


> Incorporándonos a la Autovía Minera
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## J N Winkler

I have just learned (really late--this happened in April 2009) that José Blanco has replaced Magdalena Álvarez as the minister in charge of Fomento. Does anyone know why this was done? What does this mean for Fomento's construction program and priorities?


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## Gölem II

J N Winkler said:


> I have just learned (really late--this happened in April 2009) that José Blanco has replaced Magdalena Álvarez as the minister in charge of Fomento. Does anyone know why this was done? What does this mean for Fomento's construction program and priorities?


-Because political issues (so..no idea)
-And It means nothing


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## Cicerón

As for Fomento's construction program and priorities, there will be almost no change, but it's also true that José Blanco is more_ diplomatic_, especially when it comes to signing agreements with the Autonomous Communities not governed by the socialist party. For instance, in Madrid, they signed the last stretch of the M-50 and a new plan for the Cercanías network.

http://www.abc.es/20090416/madrid-madrid/blanco-pacta-aguirre-cierre-20090416.html

Another example, this one in La Rioja:
http://www.larioja.org/npRioja/default/defaultpage.jsp?idtab=458455&IdDoc=497101


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## Coccodrillo

Yesterday I used the Cartagena-Almeria motorway (AP-7). I found confusing having some parts of this route called A-7, some AP-7, and some where two parallel motorways have the same number.

Anyway, this strech of AP-7 was empty, I saw a vehicle in the opposite direction only every 5 minutes or so. The toll was 12,35 €, quite expensive...

I saw also the first "long" tunnels (1,8 and 1,2 km) from the french-italian border (Monginevro/Montgenèvre Pass) until Cartagena, where I counted only 3 tunnels, none of them more than 500 m in length.


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## Morsue

SS Enforcer said:


> Great thread guys and love this site .. I am an Aussie and will be *driving from Nice to Paris via Gibralter* in October and have been searching everywhere for decent highway info for Spain. I am also a Petrol Tanker driver with many years of highway driving experience and think this site is brilliant.
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> I am looking at doing 1 section of the drive approx 800 k's each way through Spain in one stint and spending the resting of the time sightseeing. Any suggestions as to which route to take would be most appreciated. Would going via the coast and paying the tolls be the best bet or using the A-2 and no tolls but 200 extra k's be worth it.
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> Any suggestions will be most appreciated.
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> Cheers :cheers:


Now that's what I call a detour


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## Coccodrillo

There is no free alternative to the tolled AP-7 on many parts. Cross the border using the French A-9 and Spanish AP-7 at the Perthus pass. Don't use the national road of the Perthus, even if your GPS (if you have one) says that there are queues on the A9/AP7. A month ago I have done Perthus' old road and it was totally jammed, 3 hours for 20 km or so. The road along the coast is beatiful but very slow and narrow with hundreds of curves.


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## SS Enforcer

Thanks for the replies so far and yes it is a big detour as for crossing the border we intend in staying in Andorra overnight then maybe driving straight through to Granada which is why I am asking about the route. It's the A2 verses the A7 ( _gotta love google maps_ ). 

See my wife wants to go over to Morocco for a day or two and as she has spent a few months in Spain many years ago it won't matter if we drive past the big cities .. so she says.

The pics posted in this thread are excellent and i'm even more looking forward to driving on European roads again as a result.

Thanks again


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## x-type

what is the situation at A4 at Despeñaperros area? is new section built or still u/c? i see at Google Earth it is allready drawn in.


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## Coccodrillo

It is under construction. Some viaducts were still not completed this August (there were only pylons).

http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...4547,-3.527684&spn=0.011324,0.019248&t=h&z=16

The northbound lane in this map is the white road with a lot of curves, the soutbond the one in orange on the left.


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## Morsue

SS Enforcer said:


> Thanks for the replies so far and yes it is a big detour as for crossing the border we intend in staying in Andorra overnight then maybe driving straight through to Granada which is why I am asking about the route. It's the A2 verses the A7 ( _gotta love google maps_ ).
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> See my wife wants to go over to Morocco for a day or two and as she has spent a few months in Spain many years ago it won't matter if we drive past the big cities .. so she says.
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> The pics posted in this thread are excellent and i'm even more looking forward to driving on European roads again as a result.
> 
> Thanks again


Well, I've driven that stretch of road many times and I think I know were you can and can't avoid the tolls. As many people here say, there is no good alternative to the AP-7 going down towards southern Spain from Catalonia. Taking the detour over Madrid on the A-2 will only cost you a lot of petrol. The tolls don't make such a detour rational.

My advice when going down is taking the AP-7 from Barcelona to Valencia. On the Valencia bypass, follow the signs toward Albacete and Alicante (por interior) on the A-7. This will save you some 12-13 euros of toll. Then continue on the A-35 until you reach the signs for Alicante, don't go over Alcoy/Alcoi! You'll miss the A-31 which has a nice descent towards Alicante and is personally my favorite road in Spain to drive. When approaching Alicante on the A-31 you'll see signs indicating Murcia on the A-7. Follow those (40-50 kms) until you see signs towards Granada.

If you're heading towards Paris on your way back then going over Madrid is indeed the best option. Go to Granada and then take the A-44 towards Jaén and Madrid. At Bailén the road merges with the A-4. If you don't want to visit the centre of Madrid, then just take the M-50 bypass and then continue along the A-1 north. There is no alternative to the tolled AP-1 between Burgos and Miranda de Ebro. Between Vitoria-Gasteiz and Donostia/San Sebastian you can take either the AP-1 or the A-1/N-I (still signed N-I in the Basque Country). The AP-1 is more expensive since it's tolled, but faster and with a lot of impressive architecture. The A-1 is a tad bit longer, but untolled and with some impressive climbs. Once you've reached San Sebastian just take the A-8 towards Irun and France.

If I may, when you've passed Bordeaux on your way to Paris, take the N10 in the direction of Angouleme until Poitiers. It's an expressway which is 30 kms shorter than the A10 past Niort, and untolled. There are two stretches of single carriageway before arriving at Angouleme, and a few sections of at-grade crossings between Angouleme and Poitiers, but saving 30 kms and 19.10 euros in toll makes it worth while.


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## Aokromes

Morsue said:


> If you're heading towards Paris on your way back then going over Madrid is indeed the best option. Go to Granada and then take the A-44 towards Jaén and Madrid. At Bailén the road merges with the A-4. If you don't want to visit the centre of Madrid, then just take the M-50 bypass and then continue along the A-1 north. There is no alternative to the tolled AP-1 between Burgos and Miranda de Ebro. Between Vitoria-Gasteiz and Donostia/San Sebastian you can take either the AP-1 or the A-1/N-I (still signed N-I in the Basque Country). The AP-1 is more expensive since it's tolled, but faster and with a lot of impressive architecture. The A-1 is a tad bit longer, but untolled and with some impressive climbs. Once you've reached San Sebastian just take the A-8 towards Irun and France.


Another free alternative is from Vitoria to Irurtzun A-1 (this part is named A-1, not all the A-1 is called N-I on Basque country, only the Guipuzkoa part) then A-10 and on Irurtzun go to the North by A-15, it's a high quality road and low trafic on it, it's a big longer, but free and no trafic issues.


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## SS Enforcer

And again thanks it looks like the AP-7 and using the A-31 . In Australia if your going on a long trip there are very few choices regarding what road to use, in Spain and the rest of Europe there is so many alternatives so I can see I will have to make sure I have it sorted before I leave.

What is the general standard of drivers in Spain are they as good as the Germans? From my experiences I judge them the best highway drivers that I have ever seen, better than the Yanks and as much as I hate to say it us Aussies.

cheers


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## Cicerón

x-type said:


> what is the situation at A4 at Despeñaperros area? is new section built or still u/c? i see at Google Earth it is allready drawn in.


It's still U/C as Coccodrillo said. Here you have some pictures taken in August:

http://www.urbanity.es/foro/infraestructuras-andl/2046-a4-tuneles-de-despenaperros-3.html#post282879



Ecthelion said:


> k: Muy buen y detallado reportaje, PacoPaco.
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> Algunas fotos más de este sábado desde la otra calzada dirección a Madrid.
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## Cicerón

Málaga bypass:



Lewtom said:


> Hace una semana tomé estas fotos de la parte Norte del Aeropuerto...
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> Y esta última como es de mala calidad, os la marco para que se vea mejor...




Some roads near Córdoba:



CARABAZA said:


> ^^ Todo un clásico de este hilo... :lol:
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> Muy buenas las fotos de las nuevas incorporaciones!!!! Por cierto vaya lío de carteles pintados y repintados (o más bien con pegatinas pegadas y repegadas en la A-3...
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## ChrisZwolle

Lots of greenhouses along A-7, even bigger than the Dutch "Westland" near The Hague.


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## ChrisZwolle

Nice timelapse of A-44 Granada - Jaén in southern Spain:


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## Timon91

Why does the color of the lines change so often? Recently surfaced stretches get white lines and the old sections still have yellow lines or sth?


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## Cicerón

Yellow lines mean works on the road. Also, I see some sings of the _Ministerio de Fomento_ (ex. 2:21) announcing road works. I suppose that they are repaving the vast majority of the _autovía._


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## ChrisZwolle

We need more activity in the Spanish thread. :cheers:

Has all construction died out by now? No, it hasn't, but it looks like things slowed down significantly from the construction craze in the early 2000's.

A-15 Soria - Medinaceli:



Whitetower Soria said:


>


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## ChrisZwolle

Some pics from the Barcelona area:



CARABAZA said:


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## ChrisZwolle

Sevilla area:



CARABAZA said:


> Seguimos hacia Sevilla
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## Viva_Bulgaria

But hopefully you will continue on the next page 

To me, Spain's motorway network is the best in Europe. :cheers::cheers: We should follow the example of Spain in Bulgaria...


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## Cicerón

ChrisZwolle said:


> Cordoba area:
> 
> Now I'll stop quoting before people get mad because of the loading time of this page :cheers:


Already posted, see post #1230


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## ChrisZwolle

bump


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## x-type

via rapida are those 1+1 roads with 1 meter wide hard shoulders and curves with large radius, speed limit 100 km/h, right? like C-63 Vidreres - Lloret de Mar?


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## J N Winkler

Arriaca--that looks like a rebranding of _vías rápidas_ as _vías para automóviles_ (and an alteration of the entry sign) rather than their complete removal as a form of construction. And they are still being built with green signs in Autopista lettering! (Cf. VRG-2.2 in Galicia.)

X-type--yes, what you describe is a traditional _vía rápida_. The current _vía para autómoviles_ concept is similar to the extent that the road has to have only one carriageway and must have full control of access. But it does not have to have just one lane in each direction--it can have more as long as there is only one carriageway.

The interesting thing about these classifications is the potential for a mismatch between what is actually built (the technical object) and what is legally declared to exist (the legal entity). The Benidorm bypass, for example, will be a _carretera convencional_ even though it meets _autovía_ standards with dual carriageways, comprehensive grade separation, full control of access, etc.


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## arriaca

Ok, I want to say that the name "vía rapida" today don´t exist, this roads today already exists, but its signals are like conventional road.

The design and project of "vía rapida" is the same than conventional roads, there is not a especific chapter for this type of roads on legislation

The normal section is 1,5 - 3,5 - 3,5 - 1,5


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## ChrisZwolle

Some footage of A-1 and AP-1 in northern Spain.

Awesome scenery past 3:30


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## Aokromes

That's Pancorbo on Burgos.


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## Cicerón

This is how it looks from the National Road:







BTW, the VA-30 in Valladolid is about to be opened... finally.



flipudez said:


>


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## Cicerón

The _hiperronda_ (Málaga) keeps advancing. Some parts are almost finished already.
































































More pictures: http://www.diariosur.es/multimedia/fotos/ultimos/47327-estan-obras-segunda-ronda-0.html



Off-topic: Google car stopped by the Civil Guard in the middle of nowhere :lol:










http://maps.google.com/maps?q=39.53...iM4DkWrQy0-wwzRwtqVhNg&cbp=12,279.75,,0,15.81


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## ChrisZwolle

That's MA-40. Google Maps already has it signed as A-7;


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## jan99

*gps-track of the new autopista ??*

hi !

i see the pictures about the new autopista near malaga (MA-40 / A-46) and so i had the question:

did anybody had a gps-track of the new way - measure by yourself (not any other had rights about this data) and will spend these data for the free map openstreetmap. so i can draw the way like construction to http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=36.7313&lon=-4.455&zoom=13&layers=B000FTF.

regards Jan


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## Morsue

Since the new roads (MA-40 / AP-46) aren't finished yet I think it'll be hard to give you any GPS data if you're not involved with the construction.


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## J N Winkler

If the _proyectos_ were online, it would be possible to develop GPS tracks from the curve bearings in the plans. Fomento, for example, has put _proyectos_ online since mid-2008. But it does not look like any of the agencies or companies involved in MA-40 or AP-46 construction put _proyectos_ online as part of their tendering procedures.


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## Morsue

But then again, how can these Google maps be so accurate, or are they? Will they be modified when the roads are finally open?


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## treichard

On the Google Maps hybrid view, you can see that the map layer does trace over the few parts where the construction is evident on the satellite layer. So picking off coordinates from the map layer is likely to be fairly close to accurate.


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## jan99

treichard said:


> On the Google Maps hybrid view, you can see that the map layer does trace over the few parts where the construction is evident on the satellite layer. So picking off coordinates from the map layer is likely to be fairly close to accurate.


hi !

"So picking off coordinates from the map layer " ... this is against the rights of google.

openstreetmap only used free data !

regards Jan


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## J N Winkler

I did some Googling and discovered the following:

* The _hiperronda_ is apparently to be part of the A-7 and the construction project to build it is apparently being administered directly by Fomento. But since it was put out to tender in 2007, no _proyecto_ was ever put online for it. (What I would like to see, in the long term, is an online archive of past projects. This does not yet exist and I have had no luck emailing Fomento to ask if old projects can be obtained in electronic format. Under the Spanish constitution there is a general right of access to information held and produced by public bodies, but there is no statute defining the terms of access and so requests for information that is not already published on the Web tend to run into the problem of "administrative silence.")

* Fomento conceded construction of the AP-46 to a private company. I am not sure whether the concession agreement was negotiated on the basis of a complete _proyecto de construcción_ (concession agreements vary widely in the extent to which they defer details of design to the concessionaire).


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## ChrisZwolle

J N Winkler said:


> * The _hiperronda_ is apparently to be part of the A-7 and the construction project to build it is apparently being administered directly by Fomento.


Do you also know what number the current A-7 through Málaga will get?


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## J N Winkler

I'm not sure--maybe MA-20 or MA-21? (Do these already exist?) Also, I made a mistake; it turns out the contracts for the _hiperronda_ were actually tendered by SEITT (Fomento's arm's-length private company for building infrastructure in anticipation of repayment over time by the government), not Fomento directly. There are five involved, with keys 43-MA-4250, 43-MA-4260, 43-MA-4270, 43-MA-4280 and 42-MA-4400.

This press release from Fomento has a map which may elucidate numbering of the bypassed length of A-7:

http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/871159D5-9615-4C28-8F57-19B952A0BC8C/24845/07022314.pdf

Edit: Spanish Wikipedia suggests (but does not confirm) that the existing A-7 will revert to its old number of MA-20 once the _hiperronda_ opens:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/MA-20


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## Morsue

If I'm not mistaken, the MA-21 exists as the renumbered N-340 going from Torremolinos to Málaga, providing access to the airport from these two cities. A re-renumbering of the current bypass to MA-20 would be logical to indicate that this is now a road for local traffic, while transit traffic uses the MA-40 which is designated A-7 to indicate a transit lane.


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## Cicerón

The bridge over the bay of Cádiz:




laterillo said:


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## ChrisZwolle

Last Christmas in the Sierra Nevada, Andalucía:


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## ChrisZwolle

Autopista = tolled motorway
Autovía = toll free motorway
Vía Rápida = express road

However, I have noticed some multilane roads with roundabouts are also designated as an Autovía, like A-78 and A-79 near Elche. However, they seems to make up a tiny fraction of the whole Autovía network.


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## ChrisZwolle

Hey, did the Hiperronda de Málaga (MA-40) open today? According to the Spanish Wikipedia, it will open today...


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## Morsue

ChrisZwolle said:


> Autopista = tolled motorway
> Autovía = toll free motorway
> Vía Rápida = express road
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> However, I have noticed some multilane roads with roundabouts are also designated as an Autovía, like A-78 and A-79 near Elche. However, they seems to make up a tiny fraction of the whole Autovía network.


There is also the A-7 between Marbella and Guadiaro which is really substandard on this section.


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## Morsue

ChrisZwolle said:


> Hey, did the Hiperronda de Málaga (MA-40) open today? According to the Spanish Wikipedia, it will open today...


Very unlikely, according to the discussions at the Foro Rascacielos the opening is a few months away. The construction on the connecting AP-46 was even halted completely and won't be resumed until the 11th of January.


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## arriaca

ChrisZwolle said:


> Autopista = tolled motorway
> Autovía = toll free motorway
> Vía Rápida = express road
> 
> However, I have noticed some multilane roads with roundabouts are also designated as an Autovía, like A-78 and A-79 near Elche. However, they seems to make up a tiny fraction of the whole Autovía network.


Actually, the standars of autopista and autovia (not the first) are very simillar. For the users is the same an autovia or an autopista. 

An autopista can be a tolled motorway or not. A single rule is "all the autovias are free motorway and all the tolled motorway are autopistas"

The only difference between a autopista and a via rapida is that the former has two lanes and the second only one for both directions


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## DanielFigFoz

^^ Yes, both Autovías and Autopistas are both motorways.


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## Cicerón

*Warning: Long post *

There are no differences design-wise between the _autovías_ and _autopistas_ built after the 80's. The first-generation _autovías_, those built in the 80's, are in process of renovation and adaptation to the modern standards. Moreover, all the motorways before the construction of these first-generation _autovías_ were called and signed as _autopistas_. Let's say that the first _autovías_ were a cheap solution for increasing traffic capacity. Spain was quite poor then and we couldn't afford a better solution, so they just built a parallel carriageway next to the existing radial national roads. That doesn't mean that they don't reach the current standards in all its length, only in certain points. They usually have less crashbarriers and the acceleration/deceleration lanes are shorter than in modern _autovías_ though.


Example of an old (70's?) toll-free motorway, called _autopista_ in those times.








Google Street View

Example of a first-generation autovía (80's)








Google Street View

Example of a modern autovía (90's)








Google Street View

Example of a modern autovía (2000s):








Google Street View

Example of an old autopista (70's-80's)








Google Street View

Example of a modern autopista (2000's)








Google Street View

Something similar happened with the N-340 (now A-7) in the Costa del Sol. Well, it was actually worst due to the lack of space. Some examples:

Stretch built with old standards (Calahonda):









Stretch built with modern standards (Benalmádena):









Also, there are some roundabouts as Morsue said: Google Street View

Notice that the signs have white background (like national roads) instead of blue (like _autovías_ or _autopistas_).

Also, the mileage (kilometrage) posts say N-340 instead of A-7:
Google Street View

There's a tunnel U/C near Marbella (here) for the A-7. According to Wikipedia it should be open this year-I doubt it.


----------------

Some good news: _Only_ 1.897 people died in traffic accidents in Spain last year (2009). We hadn't reached this level since 1964.

Evolution 1992-2008:










http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espa...debajo/2000/elpepuesp/20100102elpepunac_2/Tes


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## ChrisZwolle

Current sign:









My proposal:









Basically cut back on E-numbers (useless anyway) and re-center the numbers. Signing the port of Cádiz here is not necessary anyway.


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## Danielk2

I don't see why you're so opposed to E-numbering. If E-numbers were the only ones signed, and national numbers removed from the streches, i think i just might work as a wannabe interstate system.


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## ChrisZwolle

There are thousands of kilometers of motorways that are not part of the E-road system. If you would only sign E-routes, you would get a very confusing and fragmented system of other motorways. Denmark, Sweden and Belgium are not exactly examples of a clear signing system when it comes to motorways (nor is Spain).


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## Danielk2

I didn't mean E-roads only. I mean something like we do in Denmark. E-roads are signed with E-numbers and other motorways are signed with a national number.


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## Morsue

Cicerón said:


> *Something similar happened with the N-340 (now A-7) in the Costa del Sol. Well, it was actually worst due to the lack of space. Some examples:
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> Stretch built with modern standards (Benalmádena):
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> Also, there are some roundabouts as Morsue said: Google Street View
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> Notice that the signs have white background (like national roads) instead of blue (like autovías or autopistas).
> 
> Also, the mileage (kilometrage) posts say N-340 instead of A-7:
> Google Street View*


*

The scary thing about driving on the old fashioned A-7 on the Costa del Sol is oncoming traffic. Since there is no space here at all for acceleration lanes, there are only stop signs at entrances and motorists are forced to weave into traffic flowing at 80-100 kmh. Using this stretch I try to avoid the right lane as much as possible, only moving to the right when someone wants to overtake me, leading to my increasing speed to avoid being overtaken and thus increasing the risk of accidents on such a curvy road. I don't like it.*


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## ManRegio

Thanks everyone for your answers.

BTW, I really like the Spanish Mobility Model. Building Motorways and Public Transportation. Madrid System is incredible.


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## ChrisZwolle

Cicerón said:


> Some good news: _Only_ 1.897 people died in traffic accidents in Spain last year (2009). We hadn't reached this level since 1964.
> 
> Evolution 1992-2008:
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> http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espa...debajo/2000/elpepuesp/20100102elpepunac_2/Tes


This means Spain now has 12% less traffic fatalities than the Netherlands, based on population.


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## Boltzman

ChrisZwolle said:


> Signing the port of Cádiz here is not necessary anyway.


In fact they don't sign the port of Cádiz, but Seville's.


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## Guest

ChrisZwolle said:


> This means Spain now has 12% less traffic fatalities than the Netherlands, based on population.


And 2009 Spain had less than 2000 fatalities for first time(1,897; with 5 days in 2009 without any fatality). Between 2003 and 2009 the number of fatalities has been reduced by more than 50% (52,4%) achiving the EU target (reduction of 50% of fatalities in the 2001-2010 period). Which clearly means : Good News! 

http://www.dgt.es/was6/portal/conte...a_campanas/notas_prensa/NotasDePrensa0027.pdf


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## x-type

Cicerón said:


> If I don't remember bad, "Can" is the contraction of "Ca En", in Spanish it would be "Casa Don" or "Casa de Don". Therefore "Can Graells" could be translated as "Mr. Graell's house" or "Graells family's house".


once in the past i asked my frend from Barcelona what does "can" mean and i understood her similar to your explanation, but i understood it mor like "property", not "house"


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## Cicerón

Yeah, it literally means "house" or "home", but it could also mean "property".


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## J N Winkler

Based on Cicerón's explanation, I would think the use of "Can" in Catalan placenames is analogous to the use of "Manor" in English placenames (e.g. Boston Manor--the elevated section of the M4 coming into central London was known as the Boston Manor Viaduct when it was being built in the early 1960's).


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## DanielFigFoz

Indeed, thats in the London Borough of Hounslow, a main thoroughfare off the Great West Road (A4) towards Ealing is the Boston Manor Road and a local station on the Picadilly Line is Boston Manor, actually the tube does pass over the M4 at one point


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## msz2

Is there any Spanish road or bridge engineer in this forum? If yes, I have a question. Do you still have anything to do? I personally affraid that when we in Poland build our highway syatem in 10 years there will not be much job for engineers.


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## ChrisZwolle

There are currently hundreds of kilometers of new Autovía under construction. 

I made this list using the Spanish wikipedia (Red de Carreteras de España only, not autonomous or provincial motorways)

A-2: Tordes - Caldes de Malavella: 24 kilometer 
A-2: Medinya - Bascara: 3 kilometer 
A-7: San Pedro de Alcántara - Puerto Banús: 5 kilometer 
A-7: Almuñecar - Guadalfeo: 11 kilometer 
A-7: A-44 - Castell de Ferro: 22 kilometer 
A-7: Castillo de Baños - Albuñol: 15 kilometer 
A-7: Alcoi-Norte - Albaida: 19 kilometer 
A-7: Puebla Tornesa - Villanueva de Alcolea: 18 kilometer 
A-7: L'Hospitalet de l'Infant - Vandellós: 8 kilometer 
A-7: Abrera - Terrassa: 16 kilometer 
A-8: Solares - La Encina: 14 kilometer 
A-8: La Encina - Torrelavega: 15 kilometer -
A-8: Unquera - Llanes: 23 kilometer - 
A-8: Muros de Nalón - Las Dueñas: 8 kilometer 
A-8: Navia - Tapia: 12 kilometer 
A-8: Barreiros - Villalba: 52 kilometer
A-11: La Mallona - Venta Nueva: 21 kilometer 
A-11: El Burgo de Osma - Aranda de Duero: 59 kilometer
A-11: Zamora - Ronda norte de Zamora: 6 kilometer
A-14: Lleida - Roselló: 6 kilometer 
A-14: Roselló - Almenar: 10 kilometer 
A-15: Medinaceli - Almazán: 42 kilometer 
A-21: Izco - Venta de Judas: 7 kilometer 
A-21: Yesa - Tiermas: 11 kilometer
A-21: Sigüés - Fago: 8 kilometer
A-21: Puente de Reina de Jaca - Jaca: 16 kilometer
A-22: Siétamo - Ponzano: 21 kilometer 
A-22: El Pueyo - Monzón-Oeste: 11 kilometer
A-22: Monzón-Este - Almacellas: 35 kilometer
A-23: Nueno - Sabiñánigo-Este: 40 kilometer 
A-23: Sabiñánigo-Oeste - Jaca: 10 kilometer
A-27: El Morell - Montblanc: 22 kilometer 
A-32: Linares - Puente de Génave: 127 kilometer 
A-33: Blanca (A-30) - Jumilla: 31 kilometer 
A-33: Caudete (A-31) - La Fuente de Higuera 
A-38: Sollana - Sueca-Norte: 8 kilometer 
A-38: Cullera - Favara: 10 kilometer
A-38: Xeresa - Gandía: 3 kilometer
A-38: Benissa-Norte - Benissa-Sur: 4 kilometer
A-38: Benidorm-Este - Villajoyosa: 8 kilometer
A-38: Guardamar del Segura - Pilar de Horadada: 36 kilometer 
A-40: Torrijos - Toledo: 13 kilometer 
A-40: Villarrubia de Santiago - Carracosca: 47 kilometer 
AP-46: Málaga - Antequera: 25 kilometer
A-54: Palas de Rei - Lugo: 42 kilometer 
A-54: Labacolla - Arzua-Oeste: 19 kilometer
A-56: San Martiño - Barrela: 10 kilometer 
A-56: Chantada - Narón: 21 kilometer
A-60: Santas Martas - León: 27 kilometer
A-63: Grado - La Espina: 24 kilometer 
A-73: Burgos - Quintillana de Vivar: ? km
A-73: Montorio - Aguilar de Campo: ? km
A-75: A-52 - Portugal: 11 kilometer


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## msz2

Oh shit! It's over 1000km motorway under construction. So you answered my question, they have a lot to do.:cheers:


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, it's about 1.200 kilometers of motorway under construction.

And once most of it is finished in 2 - 3 years, they will begin expanding the great AVE High Speed Train network, which also includes significant engineering challenges due to the mountainous nature of Spain.


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## msz2

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yeah, it's about 1.200 kilometers of motorway under construction.
> 
> And once most of it is finished in 2 - 3 years, they will begin expanding the great AVE High Speed Train network, which also includes significant engineering challenges due to the mountainous nature of Spain.


Sad is that Poland will never reach such level of infrastructure development.

We have now 1522 km of motorways and expresways in use and 649 km of them under construction. Our media say that we have boom in road construction.:lol:


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## Cicerón

Chris, there are 22 km of the A-12 u/c too, plus 6,3 more in some weeks.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autovía_del_Camino


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## Cicerón

The old N-II from Zaragoza to Fraga, crossing the Monegros desert. This is what happens when the tolls are too expensive for trucks hno: .



Valle de Olid said:


> Pongo unas fotos de la N-II que hice a primeros de Noviembre:
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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah I know what you're mean. Once I was driving on A-2 near Lleida, and it was full of trucks, but the AP-2 was deserted. I think the toll road has had it's longest functional lifespan in Spain. Especially in areas like AP-2 where there is a good alternate in the form of N-II, which has almost no populated places between Zaragoza and Lleida. 

AP-7, AP-8 and AP-9 are different though. They run through mountainous areas or avoid major population centers. The Spanish toll roads are among the most expensive in Europe.


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## rpc08

ChrisZwolle said:


> I made this list using the Spanish wikipedia (Red de Carreteras de España only, not autonomous or provincial motorways)


I found some more kilometers of _autovía/autopista autonómica_ under construction in Spain, using also the Spanish Wiki:

- EX-A1 Plasencia-Moraleja, 47 km
- C-32, Pallafols-Tordera, ?
- C-17 Manlleu-Ripoll, ?
- ARA-A4, Tarazona-Borja, ?
- AG-64 Cabreiros-Villalba (A-8), 14 km

The N-II is full of trucks, but the construction of "A-2" is not the right solution...:nuts:


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## yoladeuche

Cicerón said:


> The old N-II from Zaragoza to Fraga, crossing the Monegros desert. This is what happens when the tolls are too expensive for trucks hno: .


No, it is what happens when in other roads the trucks don't pay according to the road damage they do


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## ChrisZwolle

I've read somewhere a fully loaded truck with 4 axles does the same damage to the pavement as 10,000 cars. The main problem is the axle load of a car is usually between 500 and 800 kg, but can be 8.000 kg for a loaded truck.


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## J N Winkler

That is the simplification of the AASHO fourth-power law which is usually trotted out for mass-media consumption. The actual mathematical relationship is that the wear on the pavement is proportional to the fourth power of the axle load.

For purposes of pavement design, at least in the USA, engineers decompose the axle loads associated with the various types of vehicles which use a road into what are called Equivalent Standard Axle Loadings (ESALs). The ESAL per axle of a given vehicle is calculated by taking to the fourth power the ratio of its weight to the weight of a reference standard axle. Because truck axle loadings are the major constraint in pavement design, ESALs are based on typical truck axle weights. For example, a single truck axle might have an ESAL of 1, while a typical passenger car axle might have an ESAL of 0.0001.

The design life of a pavement is quantified in terms of the number of ESALs which it can tolerate before it reaches a certain defined level of structural failure. In practice some pavements can overshoot this ESAL value while others undershoot it. The AASHO fourth-power law is empirically derived and the relationship of wear to axle loading tends to be lower than a fourth-power law for subgrades with high CBR and higher for subgrades with low CBR. (CBR = California Bearing Ratio = a standardized measure of the "hardness" of the ground underneath the structural pavement layers.)

It is important to note that although truck axles apply on the order of tens of thousands as much wear to pavements as passenger car axles, this does not imply that the cost of building a road to accommodate truck traffic is ten thousand times as much. In practice, the added material required to maintain or extend chronological pavement life for a greatly increased number of ESALs comes down to several inches of concrete or asphalt. A typical example might be adding 2" to a 10" Portland cement concrete pavement to change its design lifetime from, say, 25 years to (effectively) infinity, for a given volume of truck traffic.

In practice, another important constraint on pavement life is the projected increase in overall traffic volumes. If it can be foreseen that the road will require significant widening at the end of its design life (say 40 years), then it makes little sense to build the pavement to last much longer than 40 years, unless there is reason to suspect that it will be impossible to deliver the widening at the end of the 40 years. These and many other considerations are integrated into lifecycle cost analysis, which is an important aspect of highway pavement design.

In the US, some states have moved toward what are called "perpetual" pavements for roads which they expect never to have to widen, the classic example being long lengths of rural Interstate in the Plains states. A perpetual pavement can be either concrete or asphalt, but will require some ongoing maintenance regardless of type. Asphalt perpetual pavements typically have a sacrificial top layer of asphalt which needs to be milled off and relaid periodically.


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## ChrisZwolle

AP-8 San Sebastián bypass.

Currently U/C, but I have no idea about the completion date.


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## ChrisZwolle

Weird rounded road number boxes near Bilbao.


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## runi

ChrisZwolle said:


> AP-8 San Sebastián bypass.
> 
> Currently U/C, but I have no idea about the completion date.


It will be opened after next summer with a cost of 317 million € for almost 17 km  It has 6 tunnels and 14 viaducts, one of them is 1 km long 

You can see some pictures in this thread: 
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=800764


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## yoladeuche

ChrisZwolle said:


> Weird rounded road number boxes near Bilbao.


As of yesterday night, these boxes have the usual squarish boundary. 
This is an update brought to you by Skyscrapercity.com


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## Cicerón

I heard that this morning the traffic was *92%* lower in Madrid due to the snow. The public transportation was crowded though. I can't believe that we (the Spaniards) have paid attention to the recommendations given by Fomento and the traffic authority (DGT) :nuts:

The tolls on the R-2, R-3, R-4, R-5 and M-12 had been opened from 7 to 9 AM and the army has had to remove the snow from some cities in southern Madrid.





















Some pictures of the rare green signs on the N-634 near Santander. You can see the works of the future A-8 in the background.



CARABAZA said:


> Recupero el viejo tema de los carteles verdes... xD
> 
> 
> 
> Zurita (Piélagos), 24 de Diciembre de 2.009; ahí seguían los carteles verdes...


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## ChrisZwolle

I have calculated all current and future projects in Spain.

All
* completed
* under construction
* planned
* projected
* studied

Autovías and Autopistas of;

* Estado de España
* Comunidades
* Provincial / Ciudades

are a combined *20.944 kilometers* of motorway.


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## Cicerón

Great! How did you do it? It must be quite difficult to count the kilometres projected by the municipalities, even if you only take the bigger ones.

It would be great to have an Excel book with a catalogue of all highways, kilometres under construction, etc


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## Carretero

Find the seven differences 









http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...MW2AjNh60djrXtaCdaZ5Vg&cbp=12,190.69,,1,-9.92









http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...SUeWOBObGAkOXXuI7FSJMQ&cbp=12,184.16,,1,-7.68

These signals are in the same strecht of Ronda de Dalt (B-20), in Barcelona. Only that the first signal has been put by autonomical administration, and the second one by state administration. Also note the colors of C-31 and C-32 :crazy:


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## LtBk

> I heard that this morning the traffic was 92% lower in Madrid due to the snow. The public transportation was crowded though. I can't believe that we (the Spaniards) have paid attention to the recommendations given by Fomento and the traffic authority (DGT)


Spaniards don't pay attention?


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## sdf11

Amazing work guys!! especially Cicerón & ChrisZwolle!:applause:

I should take some photos of the new A-22 between Almacellas and Lleida! It's quite amazing!:nuts::banana:

A bad pic from "El Segre" newspaper:


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## Cicerón

LtBk said:


> Spaniards don't pay attention?


Well, some years ago when the traffic authotities reccomended to schedule your trip back home after holidays in order not to provoke traffic jams, nobody paid attention to them. I'm surprised that this time the 92% of people has followed their instructions.


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## gincan

ChrisZwolle said:


> I have calculated all current and future projects in Spain.
> 
> All
> * completed
> * under construction
> * planned
> * projected
> * studied
> 
> Autovías and Autopistas of;
> 
> * Estado de España
> * Comunidades
> * Provincial / Ciudades
> 
> are a combined *20.944 kilometers* of motorway.


Do you know the numbers for Madrid alone? To me it seems the Madrid region has more motorways than some european countries. Even comparable north american cites can't match the density of the Madrid network.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes, the current motorway network in the Madrid community is 824 km, but I have to add some rural sections like A-1 up north to the Somosierra are also included in that. 

The future network is 1.161 kilometers of motorway-grade roads, but I also have to add most of the network's length consists of 4-lane motorways, especially those that fall under the Comunidad Madrid (3-digit roads). Only the M-30 is really wide, it is also the busiest motorway in all of Europe (312,000 AADT on the east side of Madrid). Most other wider motorways are six to eight lanes.


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## Cicerón

The future bypass of Bilbao, called _Supersur_ (AP-8?). Pictures taken by CARABAZA on Dec 8 2009:



CARABAZA said:


> ^^ Creo que hubo la intención de vincular variante sur metropolitana y variante sur ferroviaria para la deseable (y segura) continuación de la LAV hacia Santander pero no se llegó a ningún acuerdo... no creo que tardemos demasiado en conocer la decisión adoptada para la LAV...
> 
> _____________________________
> Unas cuantas vistas de la zona de Portugalete-Trapagaran-Santurtzi, tomadas desde la A-8 en sentido Solares.
> 
> Las fotos fueron tomadas el 8 de diciembre de 2.009
> 
> Disculpad la calidad de algunas fotos, están tomadas desde un autobús xD
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## ChrisZwolle

Cicerón said:


> The future bypass of Bilbao, called _Supersur_ (AP-8?).


BI-30 according to Spanish wikipedia.



> Se prevé que tras una reestructuración de denominación de carreteras vizcaínas está autopista tenga la denominación oficial de BI-30.


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## solchante

New version of Pacopaco´s mapa de autopistas y autovias de España[2010 version 1]  :



More information and download:

http://www.urbanity.es/foro/infraestructuras/5823-mapas-infraestructuras-de-espana-40.html

http://www.pacopaco.es/


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## Cicerón

More _Hiperronda_ in Málaga 



siles said:


> Más


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## msz2

Nice photos, you have very hard condition to built motorways (I mean mountainous area) opposite to Poland which is mostly flat, we have mountains only on the south. BTW, I have a question to professional Spanish engineers (if they are on this forum). How popular in Spain is bridge construction technology called "incremental launching"? If you could give me some photos showed using of this technology in Spain I would be very glad.


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## J N Winkler

Incremental launching is fairly popular, if _proyectos_ are anything to go by--I have seen a few (some of which may still be available for download) where it is a suggested erection technique for long valley viaducts.


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## msz2

J N Winkler said:


> Incremental launching is fairly popular, if _proyectos_ are anything to go by--I have seen a few (some of which may still be available for download) where it is a suggested erection technique for long valley viaducts.


Thanks. Maybe some links to photos from executing incremental launching in Spain?


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## Cicerón

^^ It's hard to find good pictures of motorway construction. It's easier to find the ones related to high speed lines:

Silleda, Galicia:





This is a very good animation that shows the different methods of bridge construction. It's in Spanish though:
http://www.euskalyvasca.com/es/mult..._multimedia.infografia.construccion_viaductos

It's the webpage of the "Basque Y", an Y-shaped high speed line being built between Vitoria, Bilbao and San Sebastián. If the link posted above doesn't work, try this:
http://www.euskalyvasca.com/es/multi_infog.html

And then click on "01/07/2008 Construcción de viaductos".


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## msz2

^^Thanks.


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## sdf11

As I said few days ago, here I leave some pics of this new fantastic freeway! corresponds to the new stretch between Lleida and variant d'Almacellas!

The Black stretch:













sdf11 said:


> Os dejo unas fotillos que hice el otro dia del nuevo tramo de la A22 entre Lleida y la variante de Almacelles (Salida hacia Raimat)
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> El tramo es corto, pero la calidad de la autovia es impresionante!
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> Las fotos estan hechas desde la rotonda donde se juntan A2 y A22, a la salida de Lleida, hasta el fin del tramo en la salida de Raimat.
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## J N Winkler

Why are the mainline direction signs using Carretera Convencional rather than Autopista? Does this prefigure future changes in Norma 8.1-IC?


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## Cicerón

Is this supposed to be a place for an emergency phone?


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## jovibo

msz2 said:


> Nice photos, you have very hard condition to built motorways (I mean mountainous area) opposite to Poland which is mostly flat, we have mountains only on the south. BTW, I have a question to professional Spanish engineers (if they are on this forum). How popular in Spain is bridge construction technology called "incremental launching"? If you could give me some photos showed using of this technology in Spain I would be very glad.


I have found an interesting video (though is for the construction of an HSR bridge in the new southeast corridor) -> http://www.proin3d.org/VideosVirtuales.html
Regards.


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## CARABAZA

Cicerón said:


> Is this supposed to be a place for an emergency phone?


That it seems...


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## gincan

This graph was published in the january edition of the monthly magazine published by Fomento, it shows the infrastructure investments for the last ten years. It gives an idea how they are able to build the massive amount of infrastructure, hundreds of new km of road and rail every year, not to forget the humongous port and airport expansions.
Key:

Blue = Rail

Red = Road

Green = Airports

Purple = Ports


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## Morsue

Page 70 is a little heavy to load.


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## Suburbanist

This is a video I make one year ago while driving through N240 near Yesa. I was going from Sán Sebastian (Spain) to Marseille (France) and, because I had extra time, I decided to avoid the "natural" highway route and took mountain roads and detours instead (and paid no tolls  ).

As for music, I prefer raw videos so I can listen the engine //


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## Marek.kvackaj

some great development there!


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## sdf11

2 shots of the A1 outside Madrid!

View to the north:










View to Madrid:


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## x-type

does somebody have some good photos of toll stations at AP-7 at south between Estepona and Málaga?
i mean on those:


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## Cicerón

^^ I don't know, maybe Flickr? It's hard to take a good picture of a toll station :dunno:

This is what the A-4 looks like in Despeñaperros, in the regional border between Andalusia and Castile-La Mancha. Also notice that they use incremental launching in some of the viaducts.



matsusaka32 said:


> Gracias por el link, sí que me ha interesado.
> 
> Más bien mi intención era saber donde colgar estas imágenes de las obras de la variante de Despeñaperros:
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> Si no me equivoco, han finalizado las pilas y están ejecutando el tablero por desplazamiento. Si alguien sabe más de este tema, se lo agradecería.


And this was its status one year ago: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=32728340&highlight=despe%F1aperros#post32728340


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## arriaca

Accidente M 607


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## ChrisZwolle

Wow that was some crash hno:

edit: location @ Google Maps


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## Cicerón

That's a shitty road. Is that a STOP sign on the right (0:00)? A bus stop (0:08)? The pavement looks quite old and non-draining. Plus that curve is quite dangerous, the woman says "this is where my son had the accident", and the barriers look like there has been another recent accident...

Anyway the driver of the Jaguar was quite stupid too. There are signs saying "80", several cones...

Now it seems that the Autonomous Community of Madrid is going to repair the "curve of death": http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/03/09/madrid/1268139088.html

That's how the things work here. Someone (or a lot of people in this case) has to die before something is done.


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## ChrisZwolle

This road has right-in, right-out driveway access to some office buildings.


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## x-type

i'd say he's been doing 140+. 
here we see clearly why it is very important to fix barriers right after accident because ther is huge chance that somebody else will hit them in the same place, but then they will not have any purpose anymore becuase they are broken.


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## Uppsala

sdf11 said:


> 2 shots of the A1 outside Madrid!
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> View to the north:


This motorway have lights in American style. Maybe even produced in USA? It is the cobrahead style of lights who are typical American. They have a lot lights in American style at the roads in Spain.


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## Morsue

Cicerón said:


> That's a shitty road. Is that a STOP sign on the right (0:00)? A bus stop (0:08)? The pavement looks quite old and non-draining. Plus that curve is quite dangerous, the woman says "this is where my son had the accident", and the barriers look like there has been another recent accident...
> 
> Anyway the driver of the Jaguar was quite stupid too. There are signs saying "80", several cones...
> 
> Now it seems that the Autonomous Community of Madrid is going to repair the "curve of death": http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/03/09/madrid/1268139088.html
> 
> That's how the things work here. Someone (or a lot of people in this case) has to die before something is done.


There were deaths in this one? How many? Shouldn't a modern car at least save your life if it rolls over (depending of course on if you're wearing a seat belt)?


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## Guest

Uppsala said:


> This motorway have lights in American style. Maybe even produced in USA? It is the cobrahead style of lights who are typical American. They have a lot lights in American style at the roads in Spain.


They are very common in a lot of spanish cities as well. For instance, It is the common streetlight of Madrid.


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## Uppsala

sdf11 said:


>





frozen said:


> They are very common in a lot of spanish cities as well. For instance, It is the common streetlight of Madrid.


Do you know if the streetlights are produced in USA? Or if they are produced in Spain with license from USA?


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## J N Winkler

Uppsala said:


> This motorway have lights in American style. Maybe even produced in USA? It is the cobrahead style of lights who are typical American. They have a lot lights in American style at the roads in Spain.


No, those are not American cobraheads. A true American cobrahead has an additional structural member running from the luminaire fitting to the top of the pole. See this picture for typical examples:

http://winklers-roads.fotopic.net/p16864204.html


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## Uppsala

J N Winkler said:


> No, those are not American cobraheads. A true American cobrahead has an additional structural member running from the luminaire fitting to the top of the pole. See this picture for typical examples:
> 
> http://winklers-roads.fotopic.net/p16864204.html


But i think the luminaries (not the arm) look very American at the roads in Spain. So i think the luminaries can be real American cobraheads? But i don’t know if the made cobraheads in Spain in license or if the import real cobraheads from USA?


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## J N Winkler

The term "cobrahead" refers to the structural members holding the luminaire, not the luminaire itself. It is certainly possible that the luminaire design is adapted from the US but I doubt this would be done under license because it is essentially a generic full-cutoff lamp housing of the kind that would be shown in state DOT standard plans (which by law are not allowed to show proprietary technologies).


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## Cicerón

Those streetlights have been used all over Spain ever since I can remember. I don't think they're _totally_ copied from the American ones since it's much easier and cheaper to design (and to patent) a new "Spanish" model. Anyway if you're interested in lampposts:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=965476




Morsue said:


> There were deaths in this one? How many? Shouldn't a modern car at least save your life if it rolls over (depending of course on if you're wearing a seat belt)?


I don't know how many, but there have been three accidents in a week, so it's quite likely that there have been deaths :dunno:


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## Uppsala

Cicerón said:


> Those streetlights have been used all over Spain ever since I can remember. I don't think they're _totally_ copied from the American ones since it's much easier and cheaper to design (and to patent) a new "Spanish" model. Anyway if you're interested in lampposts:
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=965476
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> I don't know how many, but there have been three accidents in a week, so it's quite likely that there have been deaths :dunno:


Very interesting link with many nice lampposts :happy:

But are you sure the luminaries are produced in Spain and not in America? Because I think those luminaries looks _totally_ American so if they are produced in Spain I’m sure they are _totally_ copied from the American ones. But Spain can buy luminaries from America?


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## Cicerón

Uppsala said:


> Very interesting link with many nice lampposts :happy:
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> But are you sure the luminaries are produced in Spain and not in America? Because I think those luminaries looks _totally_ American so if they are produced in Spain I’m sure they are _totally_ copied from the American ones. But Spain can buy luminaries from America?


Almost every country has its own standards concerning public lighting. In Spain the "poles/columns" are regulated by the _Orden Ministerial 11/07/86_ (1986, but there were others before). Those kind of columns (_báculos_ in Spanish) are called AM-10 and are produced by lots of companies in Spain:

http://www.baculos.es/am10.htm

http://www.bamesol.es/productos01.asp

http://www.bacolsa.com/familias.asp?fam=1

http://www.bacolgra.com/productos.asp?id=1

Anyway, with the new laws about electrical consumption and light pollution, these kind of lamps will probably disappear.


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## Uppsala

Cicerón said:


> Almost every country has its own standards concerning public lighting. In Spain the "poles/columns" are regulated by the _Orden Ministerial 11/07/86_ (1986, but there were others before). Those kind of columns (_báculos_ in Spanish) are called AM-10 and are produced by lots of companies in Spain:
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> http://www.baculos.es/am10.htm
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> http://www.bamesol.es/productos01.asp
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> http://www.bacolsa.com/familias.asp?fam=1
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> http://www.bacolgra.com/productos.asp?id=1
> 
> Anyway, with the new laws about electrical consumption and light pollution, these kind of lamps will probably disappear.



Yes, you are right! Most of the countries have its own standards of lighting. But a lot of luminaries can be finding in more than one country. For example are most of the luminaries at the roads here in Sweden same models of luminaries like they have in Germany, Netherlands and also in the UK. Only a few countries here in Europe have luminaries in American style and Spain is one of them. Also in Italy they have a lot of luminaries in American style. I don’t know why Spain have so many luminaries in American style. Maybe they found them good and had a good price for them and then they were standard in Spain. And when something is standard it is easy to continue with that standard


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## Cicerón

Avenida de América (which is the name of the A-2 when it enters Madrid), M-30 and A-1 leaving Madrid. Pictures by Carabaza.



CARABAZA said:


> M-30 / CALLE 30
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CARABAZA said:


> Continuamos ahora por la A-1 hacia el norte...
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## cristof

nice... it seems that billboards are allowed along the Highway in Spain...


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## CARABAZA

^^ I think we have a regulation but maybe it's too flexible


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## cristof

lol... i guess because i think it's not law abiding billboards along highways in Europe? 
whatever it looks great... a taste of America in Europe lol


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## CARABAZA

but in certain points of this road is too much...



Last A-1 motorway pics

Running towars Burgos


Superado el enlace con la M-50; seguimos hacia el norte






















































































Junto al circuito del Jarama...











Accesos...



















































































Variante de El Molar; podéis comprobar al fondo como la antigua autovía sirve de acceso sur a la citada localidad











Parece que aún está en obras o están rematando algo...



























































La variante incluye una nueva salida a El Molar-centro





































^^En este punto acaba la variante de El Molar


Vista de _"la sierra"_




















españolísima furgoneta...:lol:











y esto es todo por hoy. Espero correcciones/aportaciones ;


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Nice pics. A-1 should be 2x3 all the way to El Molar though. How are the plans for R-1?



cristof said:


> lol... i guess because i think it's not law abiding billboards along highways in Europe?
> whatever it looks great... a taste of America in Europe lol


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## Cicerón

>


Here you can see how the first-generation autovías were built. The left carriageway was the old national road N-I, while the one on the right was added later. 

BTW, where's that plate from? I mean the Mercedes. Morocco?


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## Cicerón

Some pictures of the future A-8 between Unquera and Llanes, the only stretch left between Santander and Gijón.



CARABAZA said:


> Unas imagenes de la A-8 el pasado fin de semana (9-11 de abril), entre Unquera y Llanes
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Some pictures of the A-73 Burgos-Santander. Almost half of it (40/83 km) is U/C.



cuartango said:


> Van unas fotillos de las obras, tomadas la primera semana de abril de 2010.
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> Puente sobre la N-623/N-627, por encima pasará la la BU-30 norte, que unirá la autovía a León con Vitoria.
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> Trazado Burgos-Quintanaortuño pero por la actual N-623. La nueva autovía discurrirá paralela al oeste.
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## Cicerón

VA-30 in Valladolid, to be opened in May.

Source: http://www.urbanvalladolid.es/carreteras/files/nuevas-imagenes-va30-sur.html



>


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## Davodavo

Update on the contruction of Spanish S-30, in Santander, taken from the local newspaper, www.eldiariomontanes.es.



>


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## Cicerón

Great pictures, it's more advanced than I thought. BTW, how many _circunvalaciones_ are currently under construcion in Spain? As far as I know:

-B-40 in Barcelona
-SE-40 in Seville
-Hiperronda in Málaga
-Supersur in Bilbao
-VA-30 in Valladolid
-The new AP-8 in San Sebastián
-S-30 in Santander
-BU-30 in Burgos
-The southern bypass of Lleida
-The third ring of Coruña
-The southern ring of Toledo (CM-40)
-MU-30 in Murcia
-GR-30 in Granada

------
A photo of the B-40 in Barcelona between the towns of Terrassa and Viladecavalls, to be opened in june:


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## INTER88

¿Qué tan grande es la red de autopistas españolas?


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## ChrisZwolle

14,689 kilometers according to my last calculation including the RCE, and all Autonomous and provincial Autovías.


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## INTER88

Y si tenemos en cuenta sólo las carreteras libre y cuota?


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## ChrisZwolle

cuota? This is Spain, not Mexico. In Spain, toll is called "Peaje". 

I counted all roads that are built to freeway-standards, so both Autopistas (toll) and Autovías (toll free).


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## Davodavo

^^ True, not many tolls in Spain though, but some.


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## HenMDev

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## Uppsala

I think Spain have very good standard at the roads. The only thing I don’t like in Spain is the signs. Something with them are to complicated. They have exit numbers and that’s good. but the rest of them looks to complicated for me. I prefer the signs in Portugal.


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## x-type

which autopistas have closed system of tolling?


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## Cicerón

^^ Here you have: http://www.aseta.es/index_i.htm


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## MrAkumana

Cicerón said:


> ^^ Here you have: http://www.aseta.es/index_i.htm


Let me point out that the toll network on that link is correct, but the free motorway network that appears there is quite outdated...
Some examples of missing free motorways: Logroño-Pamplona, Manresa-Berga, Maçanet-Platja d'aro, Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro (Portugal border), Avila-Salamanca, Valencia-Zaragoza etc etc. I think that's the network around 2002.


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## Cicerón

MrAkumana said:


> Let me point out that the toll network on that link is correct, but the free motorway network that appears there is quite outdated...
> Some examples of missing free motorways: Logroño-Pamplona, Manresa-Berga, Maçanet-Platja d'aro, Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro (Portugal border), Avila-Salamanca, Valencia-Zaragoza etc etc. I think that's the network around 2002.


Yep, also they show Tudela-Soria and Logroño-Burgos as planned tolled motorways, which is incorrect.


----------



## -Pino-

ChrisZwolle said:


> The six main Autovías (the ones that tourists are most likely to drive) are usually substandard compared to the newer ones. In fact, the substandard Autovías are maybe not more than 10 - 15% of the entire Autovía network.


Spanish law leaves room to build autovías as substandard in comparison to autopistas (tighter curves etc.), but in practice autovías have been constructed over the past decade or so along the same lines as autopistas. Only the older autovías are generally substandard. As a matter of fact, the Spanish government changed the law in the late 1980s to allow a quick and easy upgrade for the N-I to N-VI. They took the tighter bends for granted in order to make much-needed quick progress in the Spanish network. And understandably so. So A-1 to A-6 are indeed the places where you see most of the substandard parts. 

That leaves one major difference, which is access restrictions. From what I understand from Wikipedia, those of autovías are looser than those of autopistas (nobably on the point of scooters and mopeds). The reason is that many villages are only linked to the outside world over autovías, so this measure prevents isolation. Much the same reason why the UK chooses not to declare many motorway-like routes as formal motorway. They even allow bikes on those A-roads.


----------



## IndigoJo

-Pino- said:


> That leaves one major difference, which is access restrictions. From what I understand from Wikipedia, those of autovías are looser than those of autopistas (nobably on the point of scooters and mopeds). The reason is that many villages are only linked to the outside world over autovías, so this measure prevents isolation. Much the same reason why the UK chooses not to declare many motorway-like routes as formal motorway. They even allow bikes on those A-roads.


There are actually very few "motorway-like routes" in the UK - parts of the A2 and A3 near London and a bit of the A55 in north Wales, and some bridges and tunnels. The only bits that bikes are banned from are the bridges and tunnels and some of the A-roads around London that used to be motorways (e.g. the elevated A40 and the A12/A102 in east London). The majority of our long-distance dual carriageways have two lanes each way, no hard shoulder and no emergency roadside phones. There are some "hidden motorways" but most have no special status.

Our A-roads are just main roads, and they can be anything from a single-track road (as with some in Scotland and Wales) to a dual carriageway with or without graded junctions. The long-distance A-road dual carriageways are often built up gradually - the A3 in the late 1980s, for example, consisted of bits of single and dual carriageway, whereas now the only bit of single carriageway remaining is through Hindhead and even that's being bypassed. The quality often goes from near-motorway quality (e.g. the Esher by-pass on the A3) to very much less than that (the bit in the north Guildford suburbs and then through the hills around Godalming, for example). They often consist of bits of old road and bits of new road (e.g. the A12 from London to Ipswich). There are long stretches that are nowhere near motorway quality, e.g. the A38 in south Devon. Why don't they ban bikes and learner drivers? Because they're just main roads.

Motorways, on the other hand, are dedicated, purpose-built, long-distance fast roads intended for motorists to get past the tractors on the old main roads (or to get military hardware from one end of the country to another, depending on your point of view). Very often they are completely new routes and don't even follow the old A-roads (as with most of the M1, M6 and M25). They are almost never upgraded main roads and don't deprive anyone who can't take the motorway of an existing road, with a few exceptions, such as the A1(M) near Peterborough.


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## ChrisZwolle

A-92 through the Tabernas desert. Hard to believe this is actually in Europe, it looks like Arizona or Nevada.


----------



## Cicerón

Yeah, that desert was the location for many Spaghetti Westerns: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_Western

Here's another video of that region, featuring the A-7 along the coast.






BTW the Southern part of the VA-30 opened yesterday



Pableras85 said:


> Primer día de la ronda en servicio:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :banana:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ That's a very important 7 kilometers. Now you can bypass most of the city coming from A-62 or CL-602  The next 2 km of VA-30 until the VA-11 will open during fall 2010.

By the way; what's the current status of the "Hiperronda de Málaga"?


----------



## Cicerón

From what I've read in the Spanish forum, it seems that they're working hard in the area near a village called Zapata. The new access to the airport seems to be quite delayed. Anyway it seems that they work on a different stretch every week :lol:


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-92 through the Tabernas desert. Hard to believe this is actually in Europe, it looks like Arizona or Nevada.


I had exactly the same impression when I went to Southern Spain.


----------



## Manusan

*Reason for Madrid highways*

These are expansion plans to accommodate the growth of Madrid city, Please note immigration has grown exponentially in Spain in the last 10 years, from 300.000 to 6 million. Madrid has experienced a 1.5 million population growth in the period. 

The network of highways has a second purpose, for political reasons the capital of Spain was set right in the center of the Peninsula in the XVIth century, so there is a 6 million people metropolitan area that is right in the middle of the country and logically a logistics port of call from any company moving merchandise from North to South of the 1000 Km Pensinsula. Spain is scarcely populated in the 'mesetas', the Geograhic central plains connecting NSEW the capital *MADRID# with the densely populated areas in the Vasque Country, Galicia, Catalonia and Andalusia.

The outer rings are devised for vans not to hit any traffic jam while passing through the capital, in those rings a variety of Logistics zones are placed. 

Madrid airport is the largest in Spain and connects a plethora of International Flights to Spanish and Portuguese speaking America (remember the Spanish and Portuguese Empires were the same, under the Spanish crown for 100 years, and that Spanish interests in Lisbon, 550 km in a straight line from Madrid justify a Western leaning network of roads to channel merchandise traffic). Multinational companies willing to set in the Iberian Peninsula use Madrid as their base, as it is easy to move with, planes, high speed train networks or highways to any point of the country. And just remember the main reason for the centrality of the old *as opposed to the new" system of highways. Franco placed the main Spanish Army's tank divisions right in the center of Spain, near Madrid, this network of roads facilitates troop mobility to quell any rebellion in any point of the country with maximum speed. So from historical absurdity to logistics centre, the artificial origins of the geographical centrality of the country have derived into a thriving network of mobile companies using Madrid into a logistics hub.
Finally, Spain has had a deliberate policy to set up one of the best highway networks in Europe. There is an uninfomed member in Skyscrapercity that contends that the network was paid with EU subsidies, this British person alleges that because it was set up late and, supposedly, the EU paid for it, our roads are good. Nothing further from the truth, there might be indirect subsidies applied to some roads, but never in Madrid, as it always was far ahead of the income per capita ratios to get EU help. Madrid is the connecting hub between Spanish and Portuguese speaking countries in North, Central and South America, Portugal and the EU. The incredible rates of growth have helped Spain reach income percapita levels similar to those in France and Germany *see CIA factbook", and it has been the heavy taxation and the political will the driving force behind them. Something that the British observer does not know is that those subsidies from the EU used by regions in* Spain poorer than Madrid, were heavily used to build the British network of roads, as well as for a variety of social welfare purposes, in the 80s in the UK.*


----------



## Autovia84

Hello everyone,

Anyone have info about the A27 between Tarragona and Montblanc ... I saw it is present on google maps ...

Is it expected that it connects to the AP-2 Montblanc or it doubles the N-240 to Lleida, in this case it will make the third highway that connects the Mediterranean coast Lleida (A2 and AP-2 fulfills this function very well) in the province of Barcelona and Tarragona.

By cons, if it is planned to connect to AP2 Montblanc, there is the C-14 between Reus and Alcover who will perform this function very well if it was extended to the AP-2. I do not see the need to build two highways parallel (C-14 and A27) for the same features ... the worst thing would be to extend the A27 to Lleida, three parallel highways that will connect the coast Barcelona Tarragona to Lleida (A2, AP2 and A27)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I doubt if an A-27 all the way to Lleida is really necessary, but a shortcut between AP-2 and Tarragona is not a bad idea. It's quite a detour via El Vendrell.


----------



## Autovia84

ChrisZwolle said:


> but a shortcut between AP-2 and Tarragona is not a bad idea. It's quite a detour via El Vendrell.


But there is the C14 between Reus and Alcover...it would suffice to extend until AP2 (Montblanc)

With the A27, it will be two parallel highways that go to the same place...

I dont think it's crisis in Spain


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## ChrisZwolle

Hmm, at first I thought C-14 and A-27 were one and the same route. But now I checked it on Google Earth, they are two freeways running parallel to each other. That's a bit over the top, I'm sure one north-south freeway between Tarragona and Montblanc would do just as well...


----------



## Davodavo

geogregor said:


> I had exactly the same impression when I went to Southern Spain.


Yeah, a lot of people have that impression, but in Spain it's quite a typical thing, not only there.
Cheers.


----------



## rpc08

Unusual signalization on the new A-75 (Verín / Chaves-Portugal):










The exit 22 (Vila Verde da Raia) on portuguese A24 is signed in a spanish style.










Source [more photos]: urbanity.es


----------



## Cicerón

Penn's Woods said:


> And if someone who has nothing better to do wants to explain the Spanish route-numbering system, including color-coding (on the appropriate thread, of course)....(I understand the N103.5 is in Portugal.)


Here we are 

Firstly, a bit of history. Since 1939, when the _Plan General de Carreteras_ was launched, Spain has a "radial" road system with six main roads that go from the Puerta del Sol in Madrid (in the centre of the Iberian peninsula) to the French border in Irún, the French border in La Jonquera, Valencia, Cádiz, the Portuguese border in Badajoz and Corunna.









Source

The prefix used was *N* (for _nacional_ -national-). Those six main routes had Roman numbers form I to VI:

N-I: Madrid-Burgos-Vitoria-San Sebastián-Irún-France
N-II: Madrid-Guadalajara-Zaragoza-Lleida-Barcelona-Girona-La Jonquera-France
N-III: Madrid-Valencia
N-IV: Madrid-Córdoba-Seville-Cádiz
N-V: Madrid-Badajoz-Portugal
N-VI: Madrid-Corunna

The rest of national roads had three numbers:

-The first one depends on which of the six areas they start in.
-The second one depends on how far from Madrid they start in (every 100 km the number increases).
-The third one depends on their "position": It is an odd number if they were "radial", or an even number if they are "transverse".

Therefore, the N-120 starts in the area I (between N-I and N-II), between 200 and 300 km far from Madrid and it's "transverse". The N-655 starts in the area VI (between N-VI and N-I), between 500 and 600 km far from Madrid and it's "radial".










List of national roads: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_de_Carreteras_del_Estado

The same system was used with the regional roads, with the only difference that their prefix was a C (and their quality was inferior obviously). In the Balearic Islands they started with C-*7*XX, in the Canary Islands with C-*8*XX.

List of regional roads (until 1978): http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Carreteras_comarcales_de_España


But since 1978 Spain is divided in Autonomous Communities that can manage and built their own roads. Therefore the regional roads were transferred to them, as well as some national roads, and the Autonomous Communities changed the prefix C- for their own prefixes, and in some cases they changed the number too. For example the old C-113 is now called LR-113 in *L*a *R*ioja, the old C-601 is now called M-601 in *M*adrid and CL-601 in *C*astile and *L*eon.

The national roads are still managed by the Central Government, except in the Basque Country and Navarre because they have a special status within Spain (except the AP-68 that is still managed by the Central Government even in the Basque Country and Navarre).

The national roads and most of the highways are, as I said before, managed by the Central Government, and they form the so-called *Red de Carreteras del Estado (RCE)*. These roads and highways are called _itinerarios de interés general _("itineraries of general interest"), which have the following characteristics:

-They are a part of an international route.
-They are access roads to the main ports, airports or border crossings.
-They connect the main cities through different Autonomous Communities.

In this network there are five different prefixes:

*N-* for national roads, white numbers over a red background: *N-I*, *N-232*...
*A-* for toll-free motorways, white numbers over a blue background: *A-1*, *A-75*... The A stands for Autovía or Autopista.
*AP-* for tolled motorways, white numbers over a blue background: *AP-1*, *AP-68*... AP stands for *A*utopista de *P*eaje.
*R-* white numbers over a blue background, for the radial tolled highways near Madrid: *R-2*, *R-3*... R stands for Radial.
-A city prefix plus two digits for ring roads or acess highways, using the provincial codes: M for Madrid (*M-40*), B for Barcelona (*B-21*). Normally those codes used for ring roads end in 0.


In every Autonomous Community (and we have 17 plus 2 autonomous cities!) there is a different law about how the roads are called, mantained, built, etc :nuts: Anyway, there are different colors depending on the importance of the road:

*Orange* background for first-level roads.
*Green* background for second-level roads.
*Yellow* background for third-level roads.

In some Autonomous Communities they only use a prefix for all roads (for example Comunidad Valenciana (CV), La Rioja (LR) etc) some other they use both the prefix of the Autonomous Community (for main roads) and the province code (for minor roads, for example Catalonia or Castile and Leon), some other only use the province codes (for example Galicia or the Basque Country). AND, in the two Spanish archipelagos, they use a different code for every island (TF for Tenerife, Ma for Majorca, FV for Fuerteventura...).


It's a mess, I know. Anyway, except maybe in Madrid, nobody in Spain uses these codes. For example, in Logroño we say_ la autopista_ (AP-68), _la circunvalación_ (LO-20) or _la carretera de Soria_ (N-111). Even in formal brochures of factories or tourist atractions they say "carretera de X, km 5,5" (road to X, km 5.5) or "carretera de X a Y, km 5,5" (road from X to Y, km 5.5). The only exception is when they are located in a national or main road.


To sum up, there are:

-Tolled motorways, "AP-", with white letters over blue background. Example: *AP-68*

-"Radial" tolled motorways near Madrid, "R-", with white letters over blue background. Example: *R-5*

-Toll-free motorways, with white letters over blue background. Example: *A-67*

-Ring roads or access highways, with white letters over blue background. Example: *LO-20 (ring road)* or *BU-11 (access highway)*

-National roads, "N-", with white letters over red background. Example: *N-111*

-First-level regional roads, with black letters over orange background. Example: *LR-113*

-Second-level regional roads, with white letters over green background. Example: *LR-256*

-Third-level regional roads, with black letters over yellow background. Example: *:dunno:*


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^
Gosh! Good job. Much more comprehensible than Wikipedia in either Spanish or English. Muchas gracias. But you're right, it's a mess. And I'm surprised that green can be used for any domestic designation, since it's also used for E-roads. Must be fun in Extremadura, distinguishing between European and second-level Community roads.


----------



## JuanPaulo

WOW I never thought the labeling was so complicated! Awesome job in explaining it! I think I got it now :cheers:


----------



## Cicerón

You're welcome


----------



## Uppsala

I also noticed it's a complicated system in Spain when I used the Spanish roads.

But its one thing I don't understand in Spain. Why do they have the unique Spanish sign for Autovia? Why not a normal motorway symbol? And why not expressway symbol for the Autovias that are not qualified to be motorway? In rest of Europe we have 2 symbols, motorway and expressway, but in Spain you have the third symbol, the Autovia Symbol. I think this is quite strange. People from other European countries don't understand the Autovia symbol when they are driving at the Spanish roads.


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## Cicerón

^^ I agree with you. That concept (Autovía) was created in the 80's to name a substandard motorway (radial highways) because the Spanish goverment didn't have money enough to build a new motorway so they decided to just build another carriageway next to the old national road for most of the route. The problem is that all free motorways built since then have been labelled as Autovías. Anyway those substandard Autovías are currently being refurbished.


----------



## Autovia84

Hello everyone,

I read on some forums dedicated Spanish (I do not understand Spanish very well) that the government had plans to convert some national road to autovia :

- The N-II between Fraga and Alfajarin: Section overloaded by trucks wishing to avoid the toll of the AP-2 (very accident-prone road ... I do not know if it is called like this: o)

- The N-232 between Logrono and Castejon: Section overloaded trucks who want to avoid the toll of the AP-68 (very accident-prone road ...)

especially

The N-IV between Dos Hermanas and in Jerez de la Frontera: For relieve traffic on the AP-4 is charged during the summertime.

I do not understand why the governement would buy just the tolls on consessionaire (Aumar, Aseta...). I think it would be cheaper than build a new highway alongside an existing toll highway which moreover do not support an excessive traffic to justify the doubling of the axis ... and most importantly I think the construction of such lanes drain the traffic is already low (AP-68 and AP-2) on toll roads like the highways that we view their traffic down significantly since the introduction of parallel expressways (I'm talk about the AP-7 / A-7 in the Community of Valencia)


----------



## Cicerón

^^ This is what the Ministro de Fomento said a few days ago:



> Se trata del desdoblamiento de la N-232 y de la N-II, que ayer colocó el ministro de Fomento, José Blanco, en la posible lista de proyectos que van a sufrir retrasos con el plan de ajuste prometido en materia de infraestructuras. Lo hizo en su visita a Santander al asegurar que las *autovías pendientes de construir que tengan próxima una autopista de peaje se retrasarán. *


So basically, all the projected _Autovías_ that have a tolled _Autopista_ next to them won't be built, at least in the next years.

More info: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1136125&page=3


----------



## CNGL

Cicerón said:


> -Third-level regional roads, with black letters over yellow background. Example: *:dunno:*


BV-5031 between Mataró and Arenys de Munt!
Called the Cornellà to Fogars de Tordera road in the former town and in Sant Vicenç de Montalt, although today it doesn't run from Cornellà de Llobregat to Fogars de la Selva.


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## Cicerón

The new AP-8 in Donostia/San Sebastián. It will be opened (for cars) the next Friday.























































Source: http://www.diariovasco.com/multimedia/fotos/ultimos/58413-paseo-autopista-0.html


----------



## Nephasto

^^It's going to open all at once, the new bypass?


----------



## Cicerón

^^ As far as I know, yes. Also, the Bilbao Bypass (called Supersur) will be finished by the spring of 2011: http://www.elcorreo.com/vizcaya/v/20100610/vizcaya/supersur-esta-construida-abrira-20100610.html


----------



## Penn's Woods

Cicerón said:


> The new AP-8 in Donostia/San Sebastián. It will be opened (for cars) the next Friday.


Whoa! Five route numbers! Thought that sort of thing wasn't allowed in Europe!
Also, I notice that Bayonne (France) becomes "Baiona," but Bordeaux doesn't become "Burdeos" (that is the Spanish, isn't it?). Inconsistency? No one says "Burdeos" any more? Actually following Basque usage, not that I have any idea what that would be?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> Whoa! Five route numbers! Thought that sort of thing wasn't allowed in Europe!


Hehe, that's nothing. I believe there are signs with 7 or 8 numbers in Spain and Hungary.


----------



## CNGL

In Saragossa there was a sign with 8 route numbers:








^^ This was before Z-40 was signed. Now looks this.
------------------------
@Ciceron: Resized.


----------



## Cicerón

Penn's Woods said:


> Whoa! Five route numbers! Thought that sort of thing wasn't allowed in Europe!
> Also, I notice that Bayonne (France) becomes "Baiona," but Bordeaux doesn't become "Burdeos" (that is the Spanish, isn't it?). Inconsistency? No one says "Burdeos" any more? Actually following Basque usage, not that I have any idea what that would be?


It seems that they used Basque for the [French] Basque Country (Baiona is Basque, Bayona Spanish and Bayonne French) and French for Bordeaux (Bordele in Basque and Burdeos -still used- in Spanish).

Edit: Please CNGL! Resize that picture! Use this link instead:

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/A-2_Autovia_del_Nordeste_en_Zaragoza.jpg/800px-A-2_Autovia_del_Nordeste_en_Zaragoza.jpg[/IMG]


----------



## Morsue

Penn's Woods said:


> Also, I notice that Bayonne (France) becomes "Baiona," but Bordeaux doesn't become "Burdeos" (that is the Spanish, isn't it?). Inconsistency? No one says "Burdeos" any more? Actually following Basque usage, not that I have any idea what that would be?


I think Baiona is Basque, as Bayonne is in the French part of the Basque Country. Bordeaux is not and is thus signed in French


----------



## ChrisZwolle

CNGL said:


> In Saragossa


Does anybody ever use "Saragossa"? I never knew it otherwise than Zaragoza. (which also sounds cooler to me  ) Even the English wikipedia redirects to Zaragoza, the whole article only says Saragossa two times.


----------



## CNGL

In Google Street View, when you put the pegman in Zaragoza, after the street it says the municipality. And it says "Saragossa", which is also the Zaragoza's name in German, Polish and Polish (eeer, Catalan )

And the demonym of the Zaragoza's people is _cheposo_ (I'm from Huesca and we are to kill with Zaragoza)


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Does anybody ever use "Saragossa"? I never knew it otherwise than Zaragoza. (which also sounds cooler to me  ) Even the English wikipedia redirects to Zaragoza, the whole article only says Saragossa two times.


I'd lean toward "Zaragoza." I'm not sure it comes up often enough in English for "Saragossa" to remain in use. Like during the 2006 Winter Olympics, when American media kept referring to "Torino." It's always been "Turin" in English, but no one seemed to know that. I'd still say "Turin."


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't really see the use of slightly altered exonyms anyway. In the Netherlands we say Berlijn, Londen and Parijs. It's not like Berlin, London and Paris are not understood by the Dutch. 

I'm thinking, but I don't think the Dutch have exonyms for Spanish cities.


----------



## Slagathor

ChrisZwolle said:


> I don't really see the use of slightly altered exonyms anyway. In the Netherlands we say Berlijn, Londen and Parijs. It's not light Berlin, London and Paris are not understood by the Dutch.
> 
> I'm thinking, but I don't think the Dutch have exonyms for Spanish cities.


We don't, no. At best we leave out the funky characters (Córdoba becomes Cordoba). We do, of course, have exonyms for the regions (Galicia -> Galicië).


----------



## Aokromes

CNGL said:


> Well, leave the Zaragoza/Saragossa thing.
> This is the autovía A-23 near Huesca (My hometown! )
> 
> 
> Click on image for full size.
> 
> BTW, today Donostia's bypass opens.





TramSS said:


> Igual se sale un poco del tema pero, por qué no se señaliza el puerto y el Aeropuerto en las nueva señalización?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting, does AP-1 goes all the way to the French border? I thought it ended at Eibar.


----------



## Davodavo

LilMocr0 said:


> But ChrisZwolle is right. And since Spain has given País Vasco a lot of authority in their own region, they do have the right to keep the road numbers like that.


I don't think so. They may have convinced the "Ministerio de Fomento" to do it, but that's a different thing.




ChrisZwolle said:


> Interesting, does AP-1 goes all the way to the French border? I thought it ended at Eibar.


It doesn't, in fact, it ends in Irún, near the border.

Cheers.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Aokromes said:


> There is one GOOD reason to don't name all the old N-1 has A-1: it don't fits autovia standars on Guipuzkoa, a sample:
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> For A-8 they are slowly changing to AP-8 on some places.


Where is that bend?


----------



## Uppsala

TramSS said:


>


Spanish signs! I still don't like them. I think they are the worst in Europe. They looks to complicated.


----------



## ekologista

Morsue said:


> I think Baiona is Basque, as Bayonne is in the French part of the Basque Country. Bordeaux is not and is thus signed in French


It´s right, Baiona is the Basque name for Bayonne


----------



## Aokromes

Coccodrillo said:


> Where is that bend?


Here: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=...4797,-2.233969&spn=0.005363,0.017713&t=h&z=17


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## ChrisZwolle

ekologista said:


> It´s right, Baiona is the Basque name for Bayonne


Ah, I was checking what it could be, I only knew the Baiona in Galicia.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Aokromes said:


> Here: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=...4797,-2.233969&spn=0.005363,0.017713&t=h&z=17


N-I, like many other primary Autovías (A-1 - A-6) are basically an upgrade of the existing road with another carriageway, not taking into account motorway design standards. Back in the 80's, they didn't foresee the massive Autovía construction from ~1995 - 2007, and Autovías were intended to be significantly below Autopista standard. Later, Autovías and Autopistas basically became the same with the most prominent exception being tolls, but then those A-1 through A-6 were already duplicated. 

Actually, Brazil is going through the same thing now. Many main roads are duplicated to 2x2. I wonder if they will run into the same trouble, these roads tend to be dangerous with higher traffic volumes due to the poor design standards.


----------



## Aokromes

Yes, that place the bad part is the old N-I road, and the good part is the new road, it's suposed they go to fix that some day. *i hope before they go to start adding a toll to that road*


----------



## Cicerón

Davodavo said:


> Well the truth is that they are not the ones who take the decision.





LilMocr0 said:


> But ChrisZwolle is right. And since Spain has given País Vasco a lot of authority in their own region, they do have the right to keep the road numbers like that.





Davodavo said:


> I don't think so. They may have convinced the "Ministerio de Fomento" to do it, but that's a different thing.


The Basque Country and Navarre manage their roads except the AP-68 and they are in fact the ones who can change the numbering


----------



## Davodavo

^^ So they can call N1 BC938 then?


----------



## Aokromes

ChrisZwolle said:


> By the way, which number would the old AP-8 (signed as A-8) get near San Sebastián?





CNGL said:


> ^^ I think it will remain as A-8. Or A-1/A-8... The section Pendueles-Llanes will open in 2011 :tongue:
> 
> I want to see A-2 all the way from Madrid to the French border. Now I know where build the A-2 between kilometerposts 630 and 675, but at kmpost 653 there is a golf course...


From: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=800764&page=4

they say GI-20 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.2787942886353&lon=-2.00680732727051&zoom=14


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## ChrisZwolle

this picture also indicated GI-20 (Gipuzkoa). I already couldn't find this number on Google Earth, and an xx-x0 number is usually given to a beltway or bypass, so GI-20 sounds very plausible.


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## Cicerón

Davodavo said:


> ^^ So they can call N1 BC938 then?


Yep, but it would be quite stupid :laugh:. When all the Spanish highways were renamed, the Basque ones remained with their old names, maybe because the changes could confuse the users, but I think it was because they didn't want to spend money on changin all the signs, so they are doing it gradually. The Navarrese government did it fron the first moment though: A-15 to AP-15, even the A-1 is called A-1 in Navarre!

Edit:


ChrisZwolle said:


> this picture also indicated GI-20 (Gipuzkoa). I already couldn't find this number on Google Earth, and an xx-x0 number is usually given to a beltway or bypass, so GI-20 sounds very plausible.


I can't understand why they keep using the orange background for that kind of motorways. The same happens with the A-92, the CV-35 and the M-45. Yes, it's managed by the Autonomous Communities, but they're _Autovías _after all!


----------



## Aokromes

Well for the point of N-I/A-1 the side from Vitoria-Gasteiz to Alsasua was called A-1 since long time ago (when the Vitoria-Gasteiz bypass was made) but the Miranda de Ebro to Vitoria-Gasteiz part was N-1 until few months ago when the part Miranda de Ebro to Armiñon was adapted to standards.


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## Coccodrillo

Another stupid numbering: this motorway is numbered A-92N in Andalusia and A-91 in Murcia, because the first is managed by the region the second by the central government: http://maps.google.ch/?ie=UTF8&ll=37.615047,-1.914024&spn=0.174596,0.289764&z=12


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## CNGL

TramSS said:


> Igual se sale un poco del tema pero, por qué no se señaliza el puerto y el Aeropuerto en las nueva señalización?


Baiona is completely in the opposite direction, it is in Pontevedra province!
(Yep, I know this is for Bayonne )


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## CNGL

Coccodrillo said:


> Another stupid numbering: this motorway is numbered A-92N in Andalusia and A-91 in Murcia, because the first is managed by the region the second by the central government: http://maps.google.ch/?ie=UTF8&ll=37.615047,-1.914024&spn=0.174596,0.289764&z=12


In Aragon we have a very very short number for an autovía: ARA-A1.


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## Boltzman

GI-20?? Urban belts are named after the town, not after the province! It should be SS-20 instead.


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## Davodavo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yep, Carretera Nacional.


^^ Exactly.

Whenever you can, avoid them.


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## msz2

Davodavo said:


> ^^ Exactly.
> 
> Whenever you can, avoid them.


Why, are they in bad condition or just because you have to drive slowly?


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## Davodavo

msz2 said:


> Why, are they in bad condition or just because you have to drive slowly?


^^ Usually both, unfortunately


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## Cicerón

I don't agree with you. Most of them are OK.


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## Davodavo

Cicerón said:


> I don't agree with you. Most of them are OK.


Well, they are OK, I only meant they are far from highways' standards, therefore I think that whenever you can avoid them, you should do so, as logically, highways are quicker and more efficient.

However I also think that it depends on the community we are talking about, for instance in both Castillas I guess, you can achieve to go from one place to another quickly by a national road (even quicker if you use a highway of course). 

Nevertheless in other communities, for example in the northern part of the country, unfortunately the situation is not the same.

Finally I think it also depends on the quality of the maintaining work done in each of these roads.

Cheers.


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## Cicerón

Davodavo said:


> Well, they are OK, I only meant they are far from highways' standards, therefore I think that whenever you can avoid them, you should do so, as logically, highways are quicker and more efficient.
> 
> However I also think that it depends on the community we are talking about, for instance in both Castillas I guess, you can achieve to go from one place to another quickly by a national road (even quicker if you use a highway of course).
> 
> Nevertheless in other communities, for example in the northern part of the country, unfortunately the situation is not the same.
> 
> Finally I think it also depends on the quality of the maintaining work done in each of these roads.
> 
> Cheers.


Yep, of course highways are much better, but I think National roads fulfill their role pretty well. Lots of them have been upgraded and you can easily go at ~100 km/h.


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## ChrisZwolle

I was just gonna say, many Spanish Carreteras Nacionales are among the best designed in Europe. Wide, good alignment and not buried in "traffic calming" or other terminology that actually describe how to destroy a perfectly good road.


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## Davodavo

Well I have to say that many of them have been given to the communities, and some of them have done a good job reconstructing them.

Cheers.


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## OriK

Nowadays the national roads had been relegated to local traffic in most parts of Spain.

People use them to drive to neighboring towns or near motorways.

But a few of them are still used for medium/long trips because there isn't a motorway alternative, or it's longer or it's tolled, or to avoid traffic jams.

For example, a lot of people use national roads on the mediterranean coast to avoid AP-7.

Other example, some friends of me live in a town called Pinto in the South of Madrid next to A-4 and 2 or 3 km away from M-50, my mother's hometown is in the north of Toledo, next to the A-42, for most people the better route to go would be A-42 - M-50 - A-4 - Pinto, but my preferred route is A-42 - M-506 - Pinto, it's about 5 minutes faster (in a ~30 minutes trip) and M-506 is a very good national road (double carriageway, 2x2 lanes).

Some of them are awful and avoidable if possible, but others like M-506 are like "bad" motorways (you can see it on Google Streetview).


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## ChrisZwolle

ROFL shoulders on the wrong side of the road. :lol:



Danzig said:


> Esta noche entra en funcionamiento un nuevo tramo de la autopista C-32, entre Palafolls y Tordera. Son escasos 4,4 kilómetros:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A partir de aquí enlazará con la futura A-2 y con una nueva vía 1+1 hasta Lloret de Mar, de 7 kms.


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## Boltzman

^^ Sure they are 3,5 m wide shoulders... a lane width


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## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> ROFL shoulders on the wrong side of the road. :lol:


i'm sure you know for this occasion in Italy:


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## msz2

Cicerón said:


> Yep, of course highways are much better, but I think National roads fulfill their role pretty well. Lots of them have been upgraded and you can easily go at ~100 km/h.


What I whatched on those films was far from driving 100km/h, I am convinced that author drove about 60km/h.


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## ChrisZwolle

Check this:


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## CNGL

^^ I'm sure that road was a _vía rápida_.
I just returned from Northwestern Spain, and I saw construction of many km of motorways. The two biggest changes from 2008 (Last year I saw those roads) were new sections: A-21 now goes all the way to the Venta de Judas (still Navarre), and A-8 has been extended from Novellana to las Dueñas (On the Cudillero municipality, Asturias). Two years ago I saw the widening of a bridge in the latter section. And the bridge they are building on the Muros de Nalón-Las Dueñas section of A-8 is going to be scaring: It goes just over an existing bridge, and it's sooooo tall... Also the Supersur (Bilbao metropolitan bypass, AP-8) bridge over the A-8 is scaring. It will be 2+2+3 (I believe).


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## nestea_lemon

Why are those shoulders on the inside?


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## CNGL

^^ Those really wide shoulders are actually provisions for a 3rd lane.



CNGL said:


> And the bridge they are building on the Muros de Nalón-Las Dueñas section of A-8 is going to be scaring: It goes just over an existing bridge, *and it's sooooo tall... *


110 meters tall. It's a bit shorter than Montabliz bridge, but still like a 40 story-building.


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## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> i'm sure you know for this occasion in Italy:


X-type, that is not an error. If I'm not mistaken this is a section of Torino-Savona where the carriageways actually swap: so on the left of the image the traffic goes northbound, on the right it goes southbound...


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## Tom 958

g.spinoza said:


> X-type, that is not an error. If I'm not mistaken this is a section of Torino-Savona where the carriageways actually swap: so on the left of the image the traffic goes northbound, on the right it goes southbound...


Occasion for another compilation thread? :banana:


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## g.spinoza

In fact it is Milano-Genova A7, but the explanation is the same: in a number of instances the two carriageways swap, by means of overpasses, so actually you find yourself driving "à la anglais"


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## Coccodrillo

Apparently there was a motorway planned (A650), then downgraded to one lane per direction fast road, then reduced to a few bypass here and there. Thankfully there are still some nimbys and ambientalists  However I agree that the existing N134 is too limited with sometimes a single wide lane...for both directions.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes, I mean the idea of 1 (one) motorway on a 400 kilometer wide corridor is completely unacceptable as it will ruin the entire Pyreneees. :wtf:


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## Coccodrillo

Build a railway instead 

...don't even try, there are protests even against that.


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## Suburbanist

Fortunately French central government has a heavier hand that can railroad (pun intended) such environwackos, to a certain extent.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ such nimby groups are apparently growing, two of them particularly (against Lyon-Turin and Stuttgart 21).


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## CNGL

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ They lack connections with France, though. Construction of a highway link though the Somport pass (connecting Huesca (E) and Pau (F)) is already overdue. Also, they need a highway Lleida-Andorra-Foix.


I really wanted the link through Somport (A-23 to A65), but that won't be built because of enviromental reasons. As for the link through Andorra, I would extend the A-27 from Montblanc via the C-14 road (Paralleling current L-310 that will be renumbered to C-14 soon and cutting through Sanaüja), but one forumer at Spanish subforum said that is not needed. Yet. But I believe the E09 will be motorway soon.
And I have a proposal: I believe the A-2 Alfajarín-Fraga is not needed. When the A-22 is completed (God knows when) there will be an alternate to AP-2 through Huesca  (Although is a bit longer), so I would widen the A-23 between Zaragoza and Huesca to 2x3 instead of building the A-2. It's relatively easy, there's only a couple of bridges...


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## Cicerón

^^ I would remove the AP-2 tolls between Zaragoza (Alfajarín) and Fraga, and then, maybe, widen it to 2x3.


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## jan99

*Data of MA-40 Hiperronda de Málaga for OpenStreetMap*

hi !

the ma-40 in malaga is open and i add the motorway appoxi - did anybody take gps-tracks of the way by himself and can spend the data for openstreetmap?

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=36.736&lon=-4.4802&zoom=13&layers=M

additional i am interesseted of photos of start, end, salidas and the informationstable???

regards Jan


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## CNGL

^^ Hiperronda is going to be part of A-7 , while current A-7 will be renumbered to MA-30 or something like that.


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## Cicerón

1,730 deaths in 2010 in Spain. That's about 36.8 per million.

Year | Deaths

1992: 5,035
1993: 4,653
1994: 4,026
1995: 4,220
1996: 3,998
1997: 4,034
1998: 4,289
1999: 4,280
2000: 4,295
2002: 4,026
2003: 4,029
2004: 3,511
2005: 3,332
2006: 3,017
2007: 2,742 
2008: 2,181 
2009: 1,903
2010: 1,730


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## g.spinoza

^^ Only in autopistas/autovias or in the whole road network?


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## Cicerón

^^ In the whole road network. In fact, most accidents occur in "normal" roads.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I asked because 1730 casualties seem a low figure. Italy, with 1.5 times Spain's population (and fewer roads due to being smaller) had 2521 deaths in 2009 (I don't know the figures for 2010, but projections made in September foresaw a slight increase).

EDIT: Figures for 2010 just came out, there were 2444 deaths on the roads (-3% with respect to 2009).


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## KingNick

yoladeuche said:


> Are you implying that we are building too many roads? :tongue3:


Nono, just go ahead, I bet the rest of Europe doesn't mind paying for it.


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## Cicerón

Maxx☢Power;69944225 said:


> That's a nice reduction. Has there been any studies into what caused it? I'm assuming Spain's heavy investment in infrastructure has at least something to do with it.. Might be a very useful example to show that better roads have very tangible benefits that trump the NIMBYist ones.


Point system, speed cameras, breath alcohol tests, new highways...




KingNick said:


> Nono, just go ahead, I bet the rest of Europe doesn't mind paying for it.


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=69804425&postcount=1087


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## KingNick

Cicerón said:


> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=69804425&postcount=1087


Spain received € 110 billions since they entered EEC/EU, which made all those massive investments possible. It was about time that these figures are reduced.


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## treichard

Hi - I've been trying to figure out the routings of the international E roads along the motorways of Spain by using Google Maps Street View. Some of the routes aren't clear or seem to follow two paths, and I'm wondering which path is correct. The photos from Street View are probably 1-2 years old, so possibly there have been changes since they were taken.

E-1: 
East of A Coruna, there's a 3-way AP-9 intersection. E-1 seems to follow all three directions. Has Spain decided to add a second E-1 toward Ferrol in addition to the one that goes to A Coruna as the official route log says?

In which order were the A Coruna and Ferrol branches of AP-9 built? It seems odd to have AP-9 run in 3 directions instead of 2, and the A Coruna branch seems like a reasonable routing for an AP-6 instead of AP-9.

E-5, E-90, and E-901 near Madrid: 
How does E-5 get from one side of Madrid to the other? Signs on A-1 and A-4 have it running further toward the city than the M-40 bypass, but then the signs vanish until they reappear on the other side. A connection through the city isn't clear.

E-90 shows a similar case to E-5. The route is signed on both A-2 and A-5 inside M-40 with no signed connection in between.

But then on M-40's inner loop just south of A-3, there is a big blue sign declaring the road to be E-5/E-90/M-40 with "Red de Carreteras del Estado" at the top, but otherwise there's only one other sign showing E-90 or E-5 on M-40, as if it is an afterthought. The E-5 and E-90 signs on A-1 & A-4 and A-2 & A-5 are plentiful and even appear on km posts inside E-40.

That one other sign is on M-40's outer loop just east of A-4. It's a similar "Red de..." big blue sign declaring the road to be E-5/E-90/E-901/M-40. So now E-901 appears on the outer loop but not the inner loop.

But A-3 inside M-40 is well signed as E-901, too. Ultimately, I'm wondering if these three E roads used to run into the city, maybe to its center or onto M-30, but later got moved to M-40 to bypass the city. Maybe I'm seeing a mix of old and new signs?

E-5 and E-80 between Donastia-San Sabastien and Vitoria-Gasteiz:
Were these routes changed with the opening of AP-1 near Vitoria-Gasteiz? I found signs putting E-5/E-80 on N-I and A-1, and also on AP-1 and N-622. There are also signs for each route that lack the E roads when one might expect them to appear. IS N-I & A-1 an old routing and AP-1 & N-622 is the current routing?

Also, with AP-1 now completed near Vitoria-Gasteiz and also on the Donastia bypass, have those pieces been connected as one long piece by co-signing AP-1 on a large part of AP-8? I've heard that along with the opening of the Donastia bypass, a long section of the A-8 has been renumbered as AP-8 to incidate its autopista de peaje status. Was that renumbering used as an opportunity to extend AP-1 to the French border so that there is a reason the Donastia bypass is co-signed as AP-1?

Is a timetable set for updating the Basque N-I motorway designations as A-1 to make a continuous designation from Vitoria-Gasteiz to Donastia? Would N-622 between AP-68 and N-I ever get an A- number, too?

E-90 in Barcelona:
Signs suggest two possible routings into Barcelona. From AP-2 entering the west side of the city, does E-90 follow B-23 to end at B-20, or does it follow A-2 and B-10 to some point where it just ends?


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## CNGL

^^ E01 is signed to all three directions. However, the only official one is the one going to Corunna. E07 is only to Zaragoza, but they have signed down to kmpost 251 of A-23, like French, that have signed E07 on A65 but is not part of it. Euroroutes through Madrid go on the East M-40. However, the E901 only starts at the A-3/M-40 interchange. About E05 and E80, I believe they go now on the AP-1, which have been signed on the 2nd San Sebastián Bypass with AP-8, but neither on Elgoibar-Lasarte nor Pasaia-French border sections. The N-I is going to be renumbered A-1. At least in Álava (Where I even saw a kmpost!), don't know in Guipúzcoa... Remember to put that on the Highway Browser 
About E90 in Barcelona, it ends at exit 21 of B-10 (at the side of the Ferry terminal) and jumps to Mazzara del Vallo in Italy.


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## DanielFigFoz

This is a Spanish signage question.

I thought that there weren't any green directional signs in Spain, but I found this:


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## ChrisZwolle

Green signs are used in the Barcelona region and were used on the Vía Rápida.


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## Cicerón

KingNick said:


> Spain received € 110 billions since they entered EEC/EU, which made all those massive investments possible. It was about time that these figures are reduced.


Sure, but nowadays "going ahead" wouldn't imply "Europe paying for it".


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## yoladeuche

KingNick said:


> Nono, just go ahead, I bet the rest of Europe doesn't mind paying for it.


By "we" I meant "the basques", and if you knew anything about the different fiscal regulations in Spain... oh, nevermind, go ahead.


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## DanielFigFoz

ChrisZwolle said:


> Green signs are used in the Barcelona region and were used on the Vía Rápida.


Thank you!


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## yoladeuche

Cicerón said:


> Sure, but nowadays "going ahead" wouldn't imply "Europe paying for it".


Besides that, Spain yearly budget expenditure is half a billion... are EUrocrats using american billions in their documents now?


----------



## treichard

CNGL said:


> ^^ E01 is signed to all three directions. However, the only official one is the one going to Corunna. E07 is only to Zaragoza, but they have signed down to kmpost 251 of A-23, like French, that have signed E07 on A65 but is not part of it. Euroroutes through Madrid go on the East M-40. However, the E901 only starts at the A-3/M-40 interchange. About E05 and E80, I believe they go now on the AP-1, which have been signed on the 2nd San Sebastián Bypass with AP-8, but neither on Elgoibar-Lasarte nor Pasaia-French border sections. The N-I is going to be renumbered A-1. At least in Álava (Where I even saw a kmpost!), don't know in Guipúzcoa... Remember to put that on the Highway Browser
> About E90 in Barcelona, it ends at exit 21 of B-10 (at the side of the Ferry terminal) and jumps to Mazzara del Vallo in Italy.


In those cases where I presented two options for the routings based on signs, how did you decide that one of them is the correct one and the other isn't? Does the Fomento state their chosen routings anywhere on the web?

Both the northward and southward extensions of E-7 beyond its official definition seem reasonable.

The one I forgot was E-804 following AP-68 but ending at A-1/N-I instead of at AP-8 in Bilboa. Why do all AP-68 signs show E-5 and sometimes E-80 north of A-1? (Was Spain thinking of changing all its E routes to E-5/E-80?)


----------



## ckm

KingNick said:


> Nono, just go ahead, I bet the rest of Europe doesn't mind paying for it.


You probably use Spanish motorways when you are vacationing in Spain.  So don't complain.


----------



## CNGL

A time-lapsed drive from Corunna to Ferrol. Includes a 360º camera turn :lol::


----------



## jan99

hi !

did anybody nows anythinks about the new part or A-7 (Almunecar - Motril -> OpenstreetMap: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?way=80390652)?

My interesst is approxima in which parts are tunnel and bridges ??

reagards Jan


----------



## jan99

hi !

did anybody know exaktly if A-7 will be open till Velilla-Taramay (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=36.7574&lon=-3.6615&zoom=14&layers=M&node=487081167) ??

and did anybody had some photos of signs or a video (km305 -> Velilla-Taramay) ??

regards Jan


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## lambersart2005

hey!
can anybody tell me why there is a parallel toll-AP-46 to exisiting A-45 spreading from Malaga to the north? Even if A-45 might be substandard, is there so much and such substantial traffic that a second high-class alternative is needed. Who pays all those double and triple parallel APs an A's in Spain???
I am really a road enthousiast but..... and France seems to join the path! (Montpellier, Reims...)...
Not to mention some of the "R"s around Madrid which are sometimes really senseless, destroying unbuilt land, creating even more noise and last but not least, even more congestion than before at the merging points with the existing toll-free parallel autoroutes.... is it really impossible to upgrade the existing routes???


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## Suburbanist

^^ Everything else being equal, you get a more resilient system if you have 3 2x2 highways than 1 2x6 highway.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ Most of these twin motorways are quite empty, especially the tolled one, ranging from 2.000 vehicles per day of part of the AP-7 to 6.000 of the AP-36.


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## ChrisZwolle

They were built for summer peaks. Every summer weekend Madrid rushes towards the coast around Valencia / Alicante and back. Otherwise there is almost no traffic indeed. 

You gotta keep in mind that motorway construction in these areas of Spain is very cheap, often not exceeding € 5 million per kilometer, hence they are easily economically justified, even at very low traffic volumes.


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## Coccodrillo

For someone maybe yes, but for the AP-7 Cartagena-Almeria, I doubt: only 2.000 vehicles, and some tunnels and viaducts. Not many anyway.


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## Suburbanist

^^ I'd call it advance planning: built BEFORE there is traffic. Thus, you can spark development along the route over 10-20 years.


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## ChrisZwolle

Actually I do not understand the extremely low traffic count of 2.000 vehicles per day on AP-7 between Cartagena and Vera. Sure, the competition from toll-free A-7 and A-92 is present, but 2.000 is extremely low. Maybe the tolls are too high. Or this one was built exclusively for summer peaks as well.


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## Coccodrillo

@Suburbanist: your concept about what and where a government should invest is very strange :nuts: (without offence )

@ChrisZwolle: I used that motorway one day in August 2009: I crossed a car every 5 minutes or so.


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## arriaca

ChrisZwolle said:


> Actually I do not understand the extremely low traffic count of 2.000 vehicles per day on AP-7 between Cartagena and Vera. Sure, the competition from toll-free A-7 and A-92 is present, but 2.000 is extremely low. Maybe the tolls are too high. Or this one was built exclusively for summer peaks as well.


In Spain was built some years ago a lot of toll highways without sense. Some of this have not enough traffic and are economically unviable

http://www.expansion.com/2010/02/01/empresas/1265063881.html

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/empr...entes/II/elpepueconeg/20101031elpnegemp_1/Tes

http://www.cincodias.com/articulo/e...premo-exige-reequilibrio/20110121cdscdiemp_8/


----------



## Guest

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I asked because 1730 casualties seem a low figure. Italy, with 1.5 times Spain's population (and fewer roads due to being smaller) had 2521 deaths in 2009 (I don't know the figures for 2010, but projections made in September foresaw a slight increase).
> 
> EDIT: Figures for 2010 just came out, there were 2444 deaths on the roads (-3% with respect to 2009).



Italy hasn't got 1.5 of the population.

Italy has about 60 million people and Spain 47 million


23,5 + 47 = 70,5 million (that would be having 1.5 times spanish population)


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## g.spinoza

frozen said:


> Italy hasn't got 1.5 of the population.
> 
> Italy has about 60 million people and Spain 47 million
> 
> 
> 23,5 + 47 = 70,5 million (that would be having 1.5 times spanish population)


Sheesh, more or less.

I'm an astronomer, and we think in terms of orders of magnitude. For us, from 1 to 10 it's all more or less the same...


----------



## lambersart2005

arriaca said:


> In Spain was built some years ago a lot of toll highways without sense. Some of this have not enough traffic and are economically unviable
> 
> http://www.expansion.com/2010/02/01/empresas/1265063881.html
> 
> http://www.elpais.com/articulo/empr...entes/II/elpepueconeg/20101031elpnegemp_1/Tes
> 
> http://www.cincodias.com/articulo/e...premo-exige-reequilibrio/20110121cdscdiemp_8/



thanx fror the articles, that was exactly I was searching for. Really sad stories, but I really wonder how naive government and road concessionaires were planning those virtually unnecessary and UNATTRACTIVE autopistas - how can one think that if you have a parallel toll-free road which is still manageable in terms of congestion, the new road would be cost-efficient then....
Extremely sad because thats exactly what makes traffic planning and predictions untrustworthy in the eyes of the public and prevents other much more needed and reasonable projects to be realized because of public resistance.


----------



## OriK

lambersart2005 said:


> thanx fror the articles, that was exactly I was searching for. Really sad stories, but I really wonder how naive government and road concessionaires were planning those virtually unnecessary and UNATTRACTIVE autopistas - how can one think that if you have a parallel toll-free road which is still manageable in terms of congestion, the new road would be cost-efficient then....
> Extremely sad because thats exactly what makes traffic planning and predictions untrustworthy in the eyes of the public and prevents other much more needed and reasonable projects to be realized because of public resistance.


I live in a town at 40~50km of my university so I've to drive there everyday... I've 2 (motorway) options, the free motorway and the tolled one and the free one is usually crowded and the tolled one is always empty...

The reason is that the tolls in Spain are quite expensive!... If I want to use the toll motorway I'd have to pay 4.10€/5.10€ (depending on the exit, in the "4.10" one I have to wait a queue of 5/10 mins because there is a traffic light in that city entrance) x 2 = 8.20/9.20€ (no traffic light coming back ) ... EACH DAY!! now I'm paying ~6€ of diesel each day I go to the university... I CAN'T PAY 14€ EVERYDAY FOR GOING TO CLASS! (Or 10€ if i only use the toll motorway in one-way).


----------



## CNGL

Here is a road in the Pyrenees. Believe or not, this is a NATIONAL road!!!


alserrod said:


>


N-260 between Sarvisé and Fiscal here in Huesca province. This section will be replaced, but only God knows when. Maybe the 30th of current month...


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## ChrisZwolle

That is quite a difference from N-260 further east, south of Andorra...


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## DanielFigFoz

CNGL said:


> Here is a road in the Pyrenees. Believe or not, this is a NATIONAL road!!!
> 
> 
> N-260 between Sarvisé and Fiscal here in Huesca province. This section will be replaced, but only God knows when. Maybe the 30th of current month...


In Spain I do find that surprising, but if it were Portugal... I'm sure you get the idea. :lol:

Spain's national route network is so so so so so so much better. I prefer Portuguese motorways though (much better service stations), but the difference isn't as big.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> That is quite a difference from N-260 further east, south of Andorra...


Well, just a bit East of that photo, more or less on a gorge, the road suddenly widens and it's really better than this section. It continues to Campo (Literally: field) where it gets again as bad as this section.


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## Cicerón

Oh yeah, the N-260 in Huesca :rofl:

The funny thing is that there is a new road being built to avoid that section, but the works were stopped due to budget cuts last year. Fortunately the Ministry of public works says it is now determined to improve the road. 

Last news released by the Ministry:

Refurbishment of the section Balupor-Fiscal ("Acondicionamiento" means widening, improving curves, etc).









Current status :crazy:









^^ ^^ The dashed red line is the new N-260 U/C. The route can be seen from above, but there is no asphalt. Even a 3 km long tunnel is already finished, but the road is not opened to traffic yet (even though Google Maps says it is). Here is the eastern half:









As seen from the ground:









Another press release from the Ministry of public works: New asphalt for these 2 stretches:









And another _acondicionamiento_, this time for the stretch Congosto del Ventamillo-Campo: http://www.fomento.es/MFOM/LANG_CAS..._DE_PRENSA/NOTICIAS1/2011/ENERO/110117-03.htm


So basically, from West to East:

-Sabiñánigo-Fiscal: New road U/C
-Fiscal-Balupor: Project has just started
-Balupor-Aínsa: Finished, 100 km/h except in the villages of Boltaña and Aínsa.
-Aínsa-Campo: Finished in 2005, 100 km/h
-Campo-Castejón de Sos (Congosto del Ventamillo): Project has just started. The new road will have 4 tunnels and will be limited to 80 km/h.


Another shitty national road is the N-621 (León-Santader), from the touristic village of Potes to 27 km further to the South:



Carretero said:


> Ilustremos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Así durante 20 km.


Fortunately the refurbishment works started in 2008 so it must be almost finished now.

If you are interested, there's a thread about this in the Spanish forum: Las peores carreteras nacionales

And finally, some pictures of the new A-2 in Torrejón de Ardoz. It will be 2+3+3+2.



















Source & more pictures: http://torrejoneando.blogspot.com/2011/02/nudo-de-la-ii_13.html

IIRC all the new A-2 (from Madrid to Alfajarín, some km east of Zaragoza) should be finished by the end of this summer.


----------



## Boltzman

It was some 15 years ago when the N-260 was established as a national road. Previously, it was a set of local and regional roads, for local traffic mainly; so the Spanish Government hasn't upgrade them until they got national road status; before, it was the regional and provincial governments' task. The process is slow, but the whole N-260 at Huesca province has been / is being refurbished.

Same with N-621; the Goverment overtook its management just 15 years ago from regional and local governments.


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## brisavoine

Cicerón said:


> Another shitty national road is the N-621 (León-Santader), from the touristic village of Potes to 27 km further to the South:


My uncle still remembers when the paved roads ended approximately around Murcia and then you had to use dirt roads to reach Almeria. :nuts:


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## willo

CNGL said:


> Here is a road in the Pyrenees. Believe or not, this is a NATIONAL road!!!
> 
> 
> N-260 between Sarvisé and Fiscal here in Huesca province. This section will be replaced, but only God knows when. Maybe the 30th of current month...



hahaha I have been driving there. the section between Boltaña and Sarvise is all but monotonous :lol::cheers:


what about n-260 at Congosto del Ventamillo?¿?¿?(the entry to Benasque Valley)


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## g.spinoza

^^ That's simply amazing! It looks like a couple of roads I know in Italy... for instance the SR479 of the Sagittario river near Anversa degli Abruzzi, or a short section of SP79 Gola della Rossa near Serra San Quirico (but the latter has been closed for motorized vehicles)...

I'm planning a trip to Spain next September and I hope I'll have the chance to drive on this spectacular road!


----------



## willo

if you like these kind of roads there are some in the Pyrinees (well, there're roads like these in other remotes places of Spain,like the interior zone of Galicia).

I.e two bad photos i took of A-2609 From Salinas to Chistau Valley


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ I biked on that road  In 2005 I stayed at the campsite in Saravillo, along A-2609. There are more magnificent roads in that area, for instance through the Anisclo Canyon


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## Aokromes

It looks like one road under heavy rebuild on Alava


----------



## MrAkumana

Minor information: after 3 long years the polemic 80 km/h speed limit enforced on every motorway around the Barcelona metropolitan area it's finally over. This week old (pre-2008) speed limits on each motorway are back, which means, 100 km/h or 120 km/h depending on motorway and on the section.

The new catalan goverment (center-right / moderate separatist) also talked about being interest on raising to 130 km/h the speed limit on certain motorways such as the AP-2 . However also explained that in order to do that it's necesary to change in the traffic law of the spanish central goverment.


----------



## Cicerón

MrAkumana said:


> The new catalan goverment (center-right / moderate separatist) also talked about being interest on raising to 130 km/h the speed limit on certain motorways such as the AP-2 . However also explained that in order to do that it's necesary to change in the traffic law of the spanish central goverment.


Only 130?  I would say 140, after all many people already drive at that speed on some highways. For instance on the AP-68 if you drive at 120 km/h everybody passes you, or the AP-1 in the Basque country... obviously that speed limit should be raised only in well-built motorways such as the ones I mentioned above, plus others that come to my mind (AP-41, AP-36, R-'s in Madrid, A-231...)




Aokromes said:


> It looks like one road under heavy rebuild on Alava


A-3314?

The most important refurbishment we have had lately in my region (La Rioja) was the LR-113, a road with hundreds of bends that runs through a valley. The works started in 1999 and there are still 18 km pending to be refurbished, of a total of 78. Before & after (source):








-









It's not the same point, but you can get an idea of its state before the works.



PS: I've found even worse comparatives :crazy: :

LR-461:









LR-403:

























LR-466:


























All photos from www.larioja.org/carreteras


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## ChrisZwolle

Spanish government reduces speed limits on Autovías and Autopistas to 110 km/h to reduce fuel consumption. It is "temporary"

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espa...etros/hora/elpepuesp/20110225elpepunac_21/Tes


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Spanish government should read and learn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Maximum_Speed_Law

In 1974, a maximum speed limit of 90 km/h was introduced in the entire United States. Fuel savings were between 0.5 and 1%. The 15 and 11% fuel savings stated in El País seems highly unrealistic. First of all, few people would obey this 10 km/h lower limit, I really doubt if the V85 value would fall by any significant numbers (5 km/h or more). Second, most fuel is consumed by trucks, whose speed limit remains the same. Thirdly, Spanish 120 km/h roads have mostly low traffic volumes. Most fuel is burnt inside urban areas where speed limits are lower and more traffic is on fuel-inefficient urban arterials.

No need to reduce the speed limit by 10 km/h on rural motorways to save fuel.


----------



## nerdly_dood

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Spanish government should read and learn:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Maximum_Speed_Law
> 
> In 1974, a maximum speed limit of 90 km/h was introduced in the entire United States. Fuel savings were between 0.5 and 1%. The 15 and 11% fuel savings stated in El País seems highly unrealistic. First of all, few people would obey this 10 km/h lower limit, I really doubt if the V85 value would fall by any significant numbers (5 km/h or more). Second, most fuel is consumed by trucks, whose speed limit remains the same. Thirdly, Spanish 120 km/h roads have mostly low traffic volumes. Most fuel is burnt inside urban areas where speed limits are lower and more traffic is on fuel-inefficient urban arterials.
> 
> No need to reduce the speed limit by 10 km/h on rural motorways to save fuel.


The manual for my car does say that driving at 65mph uses 15% more fuel that at 55mph. I haven't driven it enough to notice if this difference is realistic but driving at 70 or 75mph does seem that it could plausibly use that much more fuel. (The speed limit for rural Interstate highways was recently increased from 65mph or 105 km/hr to 70/113)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

On an individual basis, it may indeed reduce fuel consumption by 10 - 15%. However, like I pointed out, there are more factors to include in this little calculation, for example (non)-compliance, truck fuel consumption and the amount of traffic not affected by this decrease in speed limit. Overall it has very little noticeable effect to the point it becomes one of those symbolic measures.


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## MrAkumana

This is quite crazy and no sense, it sound more like Zapatero taking revenge on the new Catalonia goverment; that just returned speed limits on motorways of the Barcelona area to what they were before the Socialist Party (to which Zapatero belong), put a ridiculous 80km/h motorway speed limit 3 years ago while ruling Catalonia for the first time...


----------



## GROBIN

http://www.nolovendas.es/reportajes/nuevos-limites-de-velocidad-y-perdida-de-puntos/


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## ChrisZwolle

Good news for CNGL: 2 new kilometers of A-23 opened yesterday between Huesca and Jaca.

http://www.pirineodigital.com/2011/noticias/2-febrero/28/autovia-a23.htm


----------



## CNGL

I know, I know. They already posted that on Aragonese subforum. But I have already "clinched" that section because one of the carriageways was the N-330. I have marked part of A-2 South of Girona... and when I clinched that back in 2005 it was the N-II.


----------



## MrAkumana

110 km/h Motorway speed limit will start next Monday and be kept until, at least, June 30th (information from spanish newpapers today). Moment on which the goverment says it will decide if Spain gets back to 120 km/h or keeps the 110 maximun more time. It will depend on the price of oil at that moment, according to the goverment.

In the worst case scenario it's likely that the messure will be removed on 2012 after the presidential elections, as according to polls it's extremely unlikely that Zapatero or the Socialist party keep the spanish central goverment.


----------



## Uppsala

MrAkumana said:


> 110 km/h Motorway speed limit will start next Monday and be kept until, at least, June 30th (information from spanish newpapers today). Moment on which the goverment says it will decide if Spain gets back to 120 km/h or keeps the 110 maximun more time. It will depend on the price of oil at that moment, according to the goverment.
> 
> In the worst case scenario it's likely that the messure will be removed on 2012 after the presidential elections, as according to polls it's extremely unlikely that Zapatero or the Socialist party keep the spanish central goverment.


So you are going to have only 110 km/h for all motorways in Spain? No motorway with at least 120 km/h? And that means all Autovia and Autopista? Not only Autovia? If that's correct that means Spanish motorways are going some of the slowest in Europe.


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## DanielFigFoz

As far as I know, its all Autovias and Autopistas. It also means that desolate Spanish motorways are going to have lower speed limits than quite a few urban Portuguese motorways...


----------



## MrAkumana

DanielFigFoz said:


> As far as I know, its all Autovias and Autopistas. It also means that desolate Spanish motorways are going to have lower speed limits than quite a few urban Portuguese motorways...


Correct. All Autovias and Autopistas, even the toll ones... Very very sad indeed... 110 km/h speed limit on a 3x3 motorway such as the Ap-7 (originally built for unlimited speed, german style) it's beyond absurd...

Spain with this ridiculously low new speed limit and Portugal with the new ridiculously complex toll system for foreign cars that begun this year (prepaid, minimum 100 eur for foreign cars, no pay in cash option, no booths, all electronic...), are both going to give tourists unplaseant fines by suprise this summer... not the best idea when you need tourism to improve the local economy....


----------



## yoladeuche

For those who intend to cross Spain North-to-South through autovia A1, be advised that roadworks have been resumed after a winter pause:
A1 Castilla-Leon roadworks

This means several road sections with just one lane in each direction, or narrower lanes with overtaking restrictions. 

The works are expected to be finished late this year, so with all probability this summer will be as problematic as last year's.


----------



## Morsue

yoladeuche said:


> For those who intend to cross Spain North-to-South through autovia A1, be advised that roadworks have been resumed after a winter pause:
> A1 Castilla-Leon roadworks
> 
> This means several road sections with just one lane in each direction, or narrower lanes with overtaking restrictions.
> 
> The works are expected to be finished late this year, so with all probability this summer will be as problematic as last year's.


For someone going Burgos-Algeciras, would you recommend the route through Valladolid-Salamanca-Sevilla?


----------



## yoladeuche

Morsue said:


> For someone going Burgos-Algeciras, would you recommend the route through Valladolid-Salamanca-Sevilla?


To be honest, I have never gone south of Madrid by car , only by train or airplane, so I don't know how much additional travel time or how many km adds your route. Depending on a series of factors(*) it could be a good idea, if only because you avoid traffic jams around Madrid. But there could be heavy traffic from European citizens of Portuguese origin in the Burgos-Salamanca section, methinks (but without roadworks, AFAIK).

(*) like traveling on Sunday or an Spanish bank holiday, or one of these days in which many Spaniards finish their vacation (July 31st, August 1st, July 25th, August 15th...)


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## Cicerón

Morsue said:


> For someone going Burgos-Algeciras, would you recommend the route through Valladolid-Salamanca-Sevilla?


I'd say yes. That's the fastest route according by Google Maps, also the A-4 is full of road works in the plains of La Mancha, the Despeñaperros mountain pass and Andalusia. In the A-62 you will find many truck traffic, however, the A-66 is pretty quiet.


The A-2 is also full of road works between Madrid and Zaragoza.


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## ChrisZwolle

Spain further solidified its position as the country with the busiest road in Europe. The M-30 in Madrid carries 328 000 vehicles per day south of M-23 (2009).


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## Filandon

Morsue said:


> For someone going Burgos-Algeciras, would you recommend the route through Valladolid-Salamanca-Sevilla?


For sure, I do cross Spain from North to South a lot and taking the A66 you will avoid crossing Madrid and at the same time you will enjoy a great new road with a very nice landscape.


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## geogregor

Where can I find current map of Autovias and Autopistas under construction and finished? I realized that all the paper maps show different status of the same road projects.
Map simillar to the one in the Polish subforum would be nice.


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## ChrisZwolle

Today 5 km of A-8 Autovía del Cantabrica opened to traffic in Galicia. This will be the beginning of the completion of the last major missing motorway in Spain. A-8 will connect San Sebastian with A Coruña, creating a long east-westlink along the Spanish Costa Verde.


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## Penn's Woods

geogregor said:


> Where can I find current map of Autovias and Autopistas under construction and finished? I realized that all the paper maps show different status of the same road projects.
> Map simillar to the one in the Polish subforum would be nice.


I don't know, but I'm taking advantage of your question to ask a related one (which I asked ages ago and never got an answer to): Who publishes the best road maps (I'm specifically interested in an atlas) for Spain, and is there a good on-line book store or map store in Spain who might ship to the U.S.?


----------



## Suburbanist

Penn's Woods said:


> I don't know, but I'm taking advantage of your question to ask a related one (which I asked ages ago and never got an answer to): Who publishes the best road maps (I'm specifically interested in an atlas) for Spain, and is there a good on-line book store or map store in Spain who might ship to the U.S.?


Michelin road atlases are the best IMO. They have detailed coverage, nice graphics and up-to-date info on roads. The have national, regional and European-wide road atlases.

You can check the design of maps on www.viamichelin.co.uk . The zoom tool is a bit messy: it has 8 or 10 levels, but just 2 or 3 scales display actual atlases images (you will clearly notice it).


----------



## treichard

Spain's Fomento maps their highways and motorways in their annual atlas, which includes a CD.
http://www.fomento.es/MFOM/LANG_CAS...ICACIONES/mapa_carreteras/default.htm?lang=en


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## Cicerón

ChrisZwolle said:


> Today 5 km of A-8 Autovía del Cantabrica opened to traffic in Galicia. This will be the beginning of the completion of the last major missing motorway in Spain. A-8 will connect San Sebastian with A Coruña, creating a long east-westlink along the Spanish Costa Verde.


It should be totally finished in 2012 



geogregor said:


> Where can I find current map of Autovias and Autopistas under construction and finished? I realized that all the paper maps show different status of the same road projects.
> Map simillar to the one in the Polish subforum would be nice.


Try this: http://mapadeautovias.pacopaco.es/

There are some mistakes and it's not updated though.

Use right click to zoom in or zoom out.

-Dashed lines (except black, yellow or purple) mean U/C.
-Black dots mean informative study being made.
-Yellow dashed lines mean informative study on public information.
-Purple dashed lines mean informative study approved.
-Black dashed lines mean project being made.

I'm not sure if I translated those terms correctly since they are technical words used in Spain. I would only take seriously the ones with a project being made. The rest, with some exceptions, are likely to be either disapproved by the Environmental authorities or cancelled due to a lack of profitability.




Penn's Woods said:


> I don't know, but I'm taking advantage of your question to ask a related one (which I asked ages ago and never got an answer to): Who publishes the best road maps (I'm specifically interested in an atlas) for Spain, and is there a good on-line book store or map store in Spain who might ship to the U.S.?





treichard said:


> Spain's Fomento maps their highways and motorways in their annual atlas, which includes a CD.
> http://www.fomento.es/MFOM/LANG_CAS...ICACIONES/mapa_carreteras/default.htm?lang=en


The most famous are Guía Repsol (here the web version) and the official Fomento maps (available in English according to Fomento.es). 

The latter are quite good, although the PC version may be confusing at first since it includes many symbols by default, but of course you can hide/show what you want. It includes monuments, monasteries, ruins, castles, bridges, caves, mountain paths, scenic routes (including hotel locations), statistics about towns, "paradores", rural houses, street maps, accesses to cities... it's the most complete IMO. 

This is how it looks (as I said before, you can hide/show what you want):









Detailed info about natural spaces:









Mountain paths:









Even photos:









Search of special locations:









A route planner:











And even a scheme of the M-30 and M-40


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^ ¡Muchísimas gracias!

After asking my question I searched Google and found a travel bookstore in Madrid and Barcelona called Altaïr, which led me to something called El Guión, by a publisher called Anaya, and an atlas by GeoPlaneta. But I can't find a place to sample the cartography. (Stanfords Maps in London, whose website will show samples for most things, doesn't carry these).

(To Suburbanist: I'm familiar with Michelin - they're great in France and the Benelux - but I'm interested in something more detailed than what they do for Spain. Thanks for your reply though.)

Now all we need is an Amazon Spain - I order French stuff from Amazon France all the time (well, whenever I can afford to...). Is casadellibro.com any good? (Amazon France's site is extremely easy to conduct precise searches on in the travel area.)


----------



## geogregor

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^ ¡Muchísimas gracias!
> 
> After asking my question I searched Google and found a travel bookstore in Madrid and Barcelona called Altaïr, which led me to something called El Guión, by a publisher called Anaya, and an atlas by GeoPlaneta. But I can't find a place to sample the cartography. (Stanfords Maps in London, whose website will show samples for most things, doesn't carry these).


I work for Stanfords 
I can try to check if we can get them



> (To Suburbanist: I'm familiar with Michelin - they're great in France and the Benelux - but I'm interested in something more detailed than what they do for Spain. Thanks for your reply though.)


Michelin does few series for Spain. I was checking some roads in Galicia and Asturias. 
So there is Michelin map of Spain updated every year:
http://www.stanfords.co.uk/stock/spain-and-portugal-2011-193087/

Then there is regional map of Galicia:
http://www.stanfords.co.uk/stock/galicia-115784/

And finaly there is most detailed map of Galician coast:
http://www.stanfords.co.uk/stock/santiago-de-compostela-and-the-coast-of-galicia-174423/
By the way there is mistake on our website, the scale should be 1:150.000 have to report it to our web team 

I looked at all of them and there seems to be lack of consistency in showing roads under construction. That's why I am confused what is finished what isn't. There are few excellent German mapmakers but their maps of Spain looks quite outdated.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^You work for Stanfords? Cool!

I'd forgotten about the regionals, although I guess it's the same cartography as the road atlas, and I didn't know there were so many Zoom titles for Spain. I think what's available from Michelin varies from one country to the next (their Benelux road atlas, I have to order from Europe; their Belgian city maps weren't available from any on-line retailer in France when I bought them a couple of years ago; can't remember how I found out they existed, actually....)

If I'm going to spend money on a road atlas for a country that I'm not likely to be in in the near future, I'm using it for reference and I like detail. I'm the type of geography geek who, if I'm watching Top Gear or the Tour de France and see a sign, will pause the TV and break out the map and figure out exactly where they are. Which entails the level of detail you'll see on an A-Z or Michelin's road atlas of France. I had an atlas of Spain and Portugal that I lost track of in a messy move, but which would be ten years old anyway at this point; I can't remember who published it and it may have been one of those things where someone like Hallwag sells under their cover outside Spain something actually published by someone in Spain. But I do remember it was much more generous with small villages than Michelin's atlas is. Now that it's spring and I can get to, say, the Globe Corner Bookstore in Boston or Ulysse in Montreal (and I've had an unexpected small windfall from an aunt who died) I'll have to do some shopping.

Sorry - didn't mean to take over this thread to talk maps.
Thanks again to Cicerón and Treichard for the tips.


----------



## sotonsi

Penn's Woods said:


> I'm the type of geography geek who, if I'm watching Top Gear or the Tour de France and see a sign, will pause the TV and break out the map and figure out exactly where they are.


You mean the lame type that needs to pause it, rather than being able to do it on the fly :lol:


----------



## Penn's Woods

sotonsi said:


> You mean the lame type that needs to pause it, rather than being able to do it on the fly :lol:


If I don't pause it, I risk missing the next sign.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I do that sort of stuff when watching American programmes :lol:


----------



## geogregor

DanielFigFoz said:


> I do that sort of stuff when watching American programmes :lol:


I usually don't need a map, my knowledge of American geography is quite good 

Going back to Spanish roads.
Did government canceled many projects due to financial situation? Michelin maps show quite few projects under construction. For example extensions of AG55 and AG56 in Galicia. They look like roads to nowhere (no offense). I know that those roads are run by the government of Galicia. Going ahead on canceled? 
Similar situation with extension of EXA1 towards Portuguese border in Extremadura. Looks like there are only villages on its way. Is this one going ahead? It's marked as under construction in Michelin Road Atlas of Spain and Portugal for 2011.

The last question is about A8. I'm thinking about visiting north of Spain sometime in September. I see some parts still under construction. I'm particularly interested in route from Gijon to A Coruna. Is it going to be finished by then?


----------



## earth intruder

Where can I find a map of current network (expressways and motorways)?
I've read that spanish network is the biggest in Europe now! Congrats!


----------



## CNGL

^^ Try http://www.openstreetmap.org, they are always up to date. The blue lines are the motorways.

The A-22 missing link near Lascellas (Huesca) is opening next week from now! :banana::banana::banana:.



geogregor said:


> I usually don't need a map, my knowledge of American geography is quite good
> 
> Going back to Spanish roads.
> Did government canceled many projects due to financial situation? Michelin maps show quite few projects under construction. For example extensions of AG55 and AG56 in Galicia. They look like roads to nowhere (no offense). I know that those roads are run by the government of Galicia. Going ahead on canceled?
> Similar situation with extension of EXA1 towards Portuguese border in Extremadura. Looks like there are only villages on its way. Is this one going ahead? It's marked as under construction in Michelin Road Atlas of Spain and Portugal for 2011.
> 
> The last question is about A8. I'm thinking about visiting north of Spain sometime in September. I see some parts still under construction. I'm particularly interested in route from Gijon to A Coruna. Is it going to be finished by then?


I know that AG-55 will be extended to Corcubión, near the "World's end" (Fisterra), and AG-56 to Noia. Last one is U/C, and there's already one carriageway open. About the other, don't know...
The EX-A1 is opened to Galisteo (West of Plasencia) and it's U/C up to Moraleja near the Portuguese border.
Finally, about the E70, it won't be completed until next year. Touzas-Vilalba will open in late May.

_BTW, E70 follows A-8, so don't worry. I decided to use the Euronumbers instead of national ones._


----------



## geogregor

CNGL said:


> ^^ Try http://www.openstreetmap.org, they are always up to date. The blue lines are the motorways.


Openstreet is great but not all the "under construction" projects will be there, it depends from the access to the building site.




> I know that AG-55 will be extended to Corcubión, near the "World's end" (Fisterra), and AG-56 to Noia. Last one is U/C, and there's already one carriageway open. About the other, don't know...


Those projects really puzzle me? What's their purpose? Looks like Cabo Fisterra might be important tourist destination, but not "that" important. Does anyone have results of traffic count on roads which those freeways will replace? 
On map AG55 looks interesting, I hope it's going ahead. Any updates on that?




> The EX-A1 is opened to Galisteo (West of Plasencia) and it's U/C up to Moraleja near the Portuguese border.


Another mysterious project for me. Moraleja on map looks like in middle of nowhere. Does it really need freeway access? Again, I would love to see traffic counts. 
I still hope it's progressing well as I love those deserted roads, far from the urban centers. 



> Finally, about the E70, it won't be completed until next year. Touzas-Vilalba will open in late May.
> 
> _BTW, E70 follows A-8, so don't worry. I decided to use the Euronumbers instead of national ones._


Is Touzas - Vilalba the only missing bit? On Michelin maps it's shown as finished but there are some other gaps.


----------



## CNGL

No, there are other missing sections: Muros de Nalón-Las Dueñas (Which includes a 110 meter tall bridge), Otur-Villapedre, Navia-Tapia de Casariego (Expected to open later this year), and the three sections from Lourenzá to Careira (Lourenzá-Mondoñedo to open in December).

The A-22 missing link near Lascellas will open next Wednesday! 4 km to make a 68 km long stretch of coutinuous motorway, never seen in Huesca province! That section had troubles with soil foundation, it was originally planned for open in 2009.
From Binéfar to the border between Aragon and Catalonia will open in May, then Binéfar bypass will open in June or July and the Almacelles one in December, leaving only Huesca-Siétamo to be built.It had planning troubles, so the last 11 kilometers will be road until at least 2015. Long live the speed camera of the Estrecho Quinto!


----------



## rpc08

geogregor said:


> Another mysterious project for me. Moraleja on map looks like in middle of nowhere. Does it really need freeway access? Again, I would love to see traffic counts.
> I still hope it's progressing well as I love those deserted roads, far from the urban centers.


The idea is to link the EX-A1 to the portuguese motorway IC31, linking the spanish border to the A23 next to Castelo Branco. When completed this will be the shortest connection between Lisbon and Madrid by motorway. However, if in the Spanish side there are only 20 km which are not yet being built, in the Portuguese side nothing is done...:nuts:


----------



## geogregor

rpc08 said:


> The idea is to link the EX-A1 to the portuguese motorway IC31, linking the spanish border to the A23 next to Castelo Branco. When completed this will be the shortest connection between Lisbon and Madrid by motorway. However, if in the Spanish side there are only 20 km which are not yet being built, in the Portuguese side nothing is done...:nuts:


So is EX-A1 under construction at the moment? Where can I get more info or some pictures?

The same about roads are asked about in Galicia? Are they covered in spanish forum? I don't speak Spanish but might look for some pictures.


----------



## Boltzman

You can check the Spanish forum; especially the regional sections here and here. You may ask for info there.


----------



## CNGL

CNGL said:


> The A-22 missing link near Lascellas will open next Wednesday! 4 km to make a 68 km long stretch of coutinuous motorway, never seen in Huesca province! That section had troubles with soil foundation, it was originally planned for open in 2009.
> From Binéfar to the border between Aragon and Catalonia will open in May, then Binéfar bypass will open in June or July and the Almacelles one in December, leaving only Huesca-Siétamo to be built.It had planning troubles, so the last 11 kilometers will be road until at least 2015. Long live the speed camera of the Estrecho Quinto!


Correction: It was opened yesterday .


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.europapress.es/extremadu...ovia-ex-a1-galisteo-batan-20110419115724.html

10 kilometers of EX-A1 will open at 1300 hrs today between Galisteo en El Batán, west of Plasencia. The cost is only € 29 million, or € 2.9 million per kilometer.


----------



## Cicerón

^^ Still too much for such a low forecasted traffic IMO. The cost would be significantly reduced by simply decreasing the width of the median from 10 m to 3 or 2 m ("mediana estricta") or even less (a simple New Jersey barrier). 

Most of the autopistas/autovías are designed with a 10 m wide median to leave enough space for a future widening to 2x3 unless the forecasted traffic is too low, but the highway design rules are too generous. Many of these new highways will never reach a traffic level high enough to need 3 lanes per direction.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

€ 2.9 million per kilometer is extremely cheap, in the Netherlands you can't build a 2-lane road for that kind of money.


----------



## Cicerón

But imagine the money that could be saved on bridges, underpasses, expropiation of private properties and land-moving if the median was only 2 m wide. I'm not talking about worse alingment or desing, it's only the median. The money would be spent more efficiently. This is especially important in Extremadura, which is the poorest Spanish region and the money to build the EX-A1 has come from EU funds, but it should be applied in the whole country.

For instance, in France, from what I have seen, new Autoroutes (A75) are built with only a barrier as a median.


----------



## Aphelion

^^ Do it the swedish way, new motorways are usually only 18.5 metres wide in total, 21.5 metres if AADT is higher.


----------



## Cicerón

pepin0 said:


> yeah, most of the road which through Zaragoza will have 2 lines services per sense (like Madrid roads) :cheers:


I guess you mean "2 carriles de servicio por sentido" 



ChrisZwolle said:


> That's about the most common Google translate mistake in road translations. Lines and sense (lanes & direction). I noticed it with many languages I translate with Google.


Yeah, in formal Spanish from Spain (e.g. in road projects or when you are trying to get a driving license), a road (or carriageway) has only one _dirección_ while it can have either one or two _sentidos_. That's why most translators make that mistake.

1 _sentido_:
_________
-> ->
- - - - - - 
-> ->
_________


2 _sentidos_:
_________
<- <-
- - - - - -
-> ->
_________

But always 1 _dirección_.

We are weird


----------



## CNGL

We are very scientific :lol:. The "dirección" is the road that goes between A and B, and the "sentido" is in which part of the road are the things: A-bound or B-bound.

I like the E90 widening works in Zaragoza, they are spectacular. I saw them in Easter. At some points they are widening the motorway to 2+3+3+2, from N-125 to E804 and in the N-330 interchange. But the rebuilding of E90 is a headache too. They have diverted all traffic to one carriageway between Épila and La Muela, 11 kilometers of what I would call N-II! (Instead of A-2, of course)


----------



## Cicerón

Maxx☢Power;77232957 said:


> ^^ What determines the dirección?


Mmh, I'm not sure, in physics it's maybe an angle? _Dirección_ is a straight line and all lines that are parallel to it.









Vectors A and B have the same _dirección_ but opposite _sentidos_.










Regarding roads, _dirección_ is (formally speaking) the route of a road, path, highway, etc. Changing _dirección_ means taking a different road, changing _sentido_ means making a U-turn. However, colloquially speaking both terms are used when saying the point you are going to, e.g. _carretera N-120 dirección Burgos_ or _carretera N-120 dirección Logroño_, maybe because the verb _dirigirse_ means "to go to". The right word would be _sentido_, though. However if you are on a roundabout, you can say "take the exit _dirección_ Burgos", because you are taking a different road 


Traffic authorities love to play with such confusing terms in driving tests, for example:

Q1) In view of this sign, what can you do?








A) Change _dirección_
B) Change _sentido_
C) Neither

Q2) In view of this sign, what can you do?








A) Change _dirección_
B) Change _sentido_
C) Neither


Correct answers are C and A respectively.


----------



## g.spinoza

It's the same in Italian, but it's known only to physicists and mathematicians. Although _direzione_ and _verso_ mean exactly what _direcciòn_ and _sentido_ mean in Spanish, in everyday use one uses _direzione_ with the meaning of _verso_.

For example: I'm travelling on Italian A1 (that defines _direzione_ Milano-Napoli), _verso_ Milano. But I also can say I'm travelling on A1 in _direzione_ Milano. It's a romance languages thing, I think.


----------



## OriK

g.spinoza said:


> It's the same in Italian, but it's known only to physicists and mathematicians. Although _direzione_ and _verso_ mean exactly what _direcciòn_ and _sentido_ mean in Spanish, in everyday use one uses _direzione_ with the meaning of _verso_.
> 
> For example: I'm travelling on Italian A1 (that defines _direzione_ Milano-Napoli), _verso_ Milano. But I also can say I'm travelling on A1 in _direzione_ Milano. It's a romance languages thing, I think.


In Spain we also use sometimes "dirección" when we mean "sentido" but that's not correct and when we want to be more specific we distinguish between both.

When you hear traffic reports on radio it's common to hear things like:

"Tráfico lento a partir del kilómetro 32 durante 3 kilómetros en *sentido* creciente de la kilométrica"

which means:

"Slow traffic from km 32 for 3 kms in the way in which the kilometrage increases" or "Slow traffic between km 32 and 35"

When that way leads to a big city, they say, for example "en sentido Madrid" instead of "en sentido creciente de la kilométrica"

Bye^2


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Well I think then that Italian usage is somewhat more relaxed. In radio traffic reports they always say "direzione" meaning "verso" even if it's formally wrong.

Back In Topic now


----------



## Cicerón

I saw the thread titled What is the difference between the different words for high-speed roads? so I decided to explain the differences between Autopista and Autovía.

In Spain we have _autopistas_ and _autovías_.











There's a lot of confusion between them so I thought I could tell the history behind those words. *WARNING: Long post.*


*Autopistas*

_Autopista_ has traditionally been the word used to describe hig-speed roads with separated carriageways and crossings at different level. In 1928, the Spanish Government promoted the projects for three _autopistas_: 

-Madrid-Valencia, closest Mediterranean port to the capital of Spain.
-Madrid-Irún (French border)
-Oviedo-Gijón, in the important mining and industrial region of Asturias. The first city was the center of the railways while the second city had an important port.









_Poster announcing the autopista Madrid-Cuenca-Valencia._

Until 1929, 17 different _autopistas_ had been planed. All these new roads were part of Miguel Primo de Rivera's (dictator of Spain) plans to improve the Spanish infrastructures.

But Miguel Primo de Rivera resigned in January 1930 and the Second Spanish Republic was declared on 14th April 1931 and, as a consequence, all those projects were cancelled.

In the 50's, now under Francisco Franco's dictatorship, the Madrid-Barajas airport started to gain some importance, to the extent that the very first motorway open in Spanish territory was the one linking Madrid to Barajas airport, in 1956. 

Some years before, in 1953 Spain signed an agreement with the US Government in which Spain ceeded territory to build shared military bases and the US gave money to Spain (remember that Spain never was a part of the Marshall plan). One of those military bases was the one in Torrejón de Ardoz, near Barajas. The _autopista_ linking Madrid and Barajas airport was then extended to the Air Base.

Some more _autopistas_ were built. Here you can see a list of the tolled ones with the day they were approved. This is the 1975 catalogue (by clicking the number you can see the autopista sign, to confirm that they are not _autovías_, even the non-tolled ones):
_Autopistas radiales básicas:_
-A-1 Autopista del Norte (now AP-1 Burgos-Miranda, tolled)​-A-2 Autopista del Nordeste (now A-2 Madrid-Torrejón Air Base, not tolled + AP-2 Zaragoza-El Vendrell, tolled)​-A-3 Autopista de Levante (now A-3, a small stretch near Madrid, not tolled)​-A-4 Autopista del Sur (now AP-4, Sevilla-Cádiz, tolled)​-A-5 Autopista de Extremadura (never built)​-A-6 Autopista del Noroeste (now AP-6 Villalba-Adanero)​
_Autopistas costeras:_
-A-7 Autopista del Mediterráneo (now AP-7, tolled)​-A-8 Autopista del Cantábrico (now A-8 Solares-Bilbao, not tolled + AP-8, Bilbao-Behovia, tolled)​-A-9 Autopista del Atlántico (now AP-9 Ferrol-Tuy, tolled)​
_Autopistas de conexión y ramales:_
-A-18 Autopista Barcelona-Tarrasa (now C-58 and C-16)​-A-19 Autopista Barcelona-Massanet (now C-31 and C-32)​-A-37 Autopista Murcia-Cartagena (never built)​-A-49 Autopista Sevilla-Huelva​-A-66 Autopista León-Oviedo (now AP-66 León-Campomanes, tolled + A-66 Campomanes-Gijón, not tolled)​-A-67 Autopista Santander-Torrelavega​-A-68 Autopista Bilbao-Zaragoza (now AP-68, tolled)​
_Autopistas insulares:_
-PM-1 Autopista Palma de Mallorca-Palmanova (now Ma-1)​-PM-7 Autopista Palma de Mallorca-Alcudia por Inca (now Ma-13)​-GC-1 Autopista Las Palmas-Maspalomas​-TF-1 Autopista Santa Cruz de Tenerife-Los Cristianos​-TF-5 Autopista Santa Cruz de Tenerife-La Orotava​



*Autovías*

In 1982, Felipe González's Socialist Party won the elections in Spain. Francisco Franco died in 1975 and the following years had been a difficult transition into democracy. To boost the Economy, the Government decided to improve the main national roads (the six roads going from Madrid to the corners of the country). But there were two problems:

-There was no money.
-Tolled motorways, which were (and are) paid and built by private companies, were not very socialist. Toll are oppressive.

So the Government decided to build a parallel carriageway next to the existing national road, build overpasses etc. And how would they call it? _Autopista_? No, that cheap solution can't be an _autopista_, we need a new word: _Autovía_. And that's how every new free high-speed road in Spain has been called _autovía_, regardless of its quality. However, that construction method was only used in some roads: Madrid-Burgos (A-1), Madrid-Zaragoza (A-2 except the first section from Madrid to the Air Base in Torrejón de Ardoz) and Madrid-Alicante (A-3 up to Atalaya del Cañavate and A-31). The A-6 Adanero-Benavente, A-5 Madrid-Badajoz and A-2 Igualada-Olesa (near Barcelona) used part of the old national road too when the geometrical features were the ones required for a high-speed road.

Those _autovías_ I mentioned above (A-1, A-2, A-3 and A-31) are currently on important refurbisment. We are now paying the lack of foresight, but it's true that Spain could have not paid completely new motorways back in the 80's. 

Of course nowadays there's no difference geometrically-wise between _autopistas_ and _autovías_.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Interesting!

http://www.abc.es/agencias/noticia.asp?noticia=814058

16 km of A-22 opened today between Monzón and Almacelles (Northern Spain).


----------



## el palmesano

Cicerón said:


> _Autopistas insulares:_
> -PM-1 Autopista Palma de Mallorca-Palmanova (now Ma-1)​-PM-7 Autopista Palma de Mallorca-Alcudia por Inca (now Ma-13)​


nowadays the palma-palmanova is palma-paguera, and there are 2 more, palma-llucmajor and palma-manacor


----------



## Cicerón

I used the names given in the official 1975 catalogue (?) / list of autopistas. That's why I wrote Massanet instead of Maçanet (official Catalan name) or Tarrasa instead of Terrassa (idem).

Those 2 motorways you mention did not exist back in 1975.


----------



## Aphelion

el palmesano said:


> nowadays the palma-palmanova is palma-paguera, and there are 2 more, palma-llucmajor and palma-manacor


I went with bus from Palma to Manacor last year and I am pretty sure it was no Autopista, since some junctions were built as roundabouts instead of interchanges.


----------



## el palmesano

^^ oh!

is true

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_15


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## Ni3lS

So I'm just gonna throw it out there and it has probably been said before: the new speed limit SUCKS. Spain is just so big, it takes forever! I've driven on the A1 Burgos - Madrid, Madrid - Burgos and the M30, M40 beltways of Madrid. It's so different from Holland, it's pretty hard to go to where you wanna be. The citycenter traffic is so hectic and stuff!

Now I've driven in 6 different countries and I've had my license for 9 months lol.


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## arnau_Vic

cool map thx


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## Paginadetodos

Hello, I'm from Spain.

I have got a videos on youtube from spaces in the highways.

The first are this. The entrance in Gijón the last year: http://youtu.be/r0l3a4S8WWY
http://youtu.be/23lgzKepMJs


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## ChrisZwolle

13 kilometers of C-31 along the Costa Brava around Platja d'Aro and Palamós have been widened to 2x2 lanes, and is now of Autovía status.

http://www.abc.es/agencias/noticia.asp?noticia=857276


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## CNGL

And next week they will complete the C-17 up to Ripoll. They are also building the so called "Eix diagonal" or C-15... I don't understand why they call it the diagonal axis, since it runs North-South (Vertically)... Perhaps because it's position as seen from Barcelona?


----------



## MrAkumana

Breaking News: against all odds speed limit will return to 120 km/h on July. 
Rumours are that vice-president Rubalcaba and PSOE candidate for 2012 forced the decision 

Good news for summer tourist and people living in Spain (althought most of the later never actually respected the 110 km/h speed limit as they knew that radars were not adjusted and there were chances of getting a fine only when driving over 135 km/h)


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## ChrisZwolle

So they installed thousands of new 110 km/h signs for just a few months. What an incredible waste of money.


----------



## CNGL

I was coming here to post that :lol:

They only put some stickers. Now they will remove the stickers and voila, the 110 km/h signs become 120 km/h signs again.


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## x-type

at Ronda de Dalt and especially Ronda Litoral there is no need for higher speed limit. maybe at Dalt during the night.


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## Suburbanist

MrAkumana said:


> Between 2008 and 2010 several motorways around a 25 km radious from the Barcelona municipality were given an absurd 80 km/h speed limit (they had originally 120 km/h or 100 km/h speed limits). -AP-7 was originally set to have also a 80km/h speed limit but was later left outside the plan-


Thanks. I remember to have read the news about speed reductions back then repeated ad nauseaum in many "anti-car" blogs, some exaggerating it as if whole Catalunia had adopted 80km/h limit and some even cited plans for 60km/h limits on urban freeways. Bogus, of couse.,


----------



## OriK

Cicerón said:


> I remember going from Logroño to Zaragoza on the AP-68 (then simply A-68) at 180 km/h and being surpassed by 2 Civil Guard motorbikes.


WTF?! And they stopped you?



Cicerón said:


> Regarding first-generation _autovías_: A-1 from Somosierra tunnel to Burgos, A-2, A-3/A-31 & A-4 in Castile-La Mancha are under refurbishment righ now.


Theoricaly ... the A-42 also is going to be refurbished but they are only improving some streches that are not among the worse of the road... I think that they have other (expensiver) plans for this motorway and they are waiting to be able to afford it...


----------



## Cicerón

OriK said:


> WTF?! And they stopped you?


Nope, that's the point. Everybody was driving >150 km/h and nobody cared, not even the Civil Guards.



OriK said:


> Theoricaly ... the A-42 also is going to be refurbished but they are only improving some streches that are not among the worse of the road... I think that they have other (expensiver) plans for this motorway and they are waiting to be able to afford it...


But the A-42, although it is going to be refurbished, is not part of the same plan. The plan I was talking about is being financed through public-private partnership (shadow toll or _peaje en sombra_ in Spanish). 

This means that a company pays the refurbishment, then the Government gives a quantity of money to the company for every car that uses the motorway. Therefore there's no problem with the money, in fact the company wants to finish the road works fast so that it can start receiving money as soon as possible.

Here you have more info: http://www.urbanity.es/foro/infraes...-reforma-de-las-autovias-de-1-generacion.html


----------



## arriaca

ChrisZwolle said:


> 130 km/h is too fast for nearly all older generation Autovías. Sure, you can drive 130 or faster when you're almost alone on the road, but it's unsafe when traffic becomes heavier. 130 km/h could work on Autopistas and newer generation Autovías on the Meseta.


Are you all sure this is not safe to move 130 kilometers per hour?

http://maps.google.es/maps?q=trijue...TGKztJc7tSCI3tUo0MdeOw&cbp=12,218.07,,0,13.71


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Why do you think that section is limited at 100 km/h?


----------



## Cicerón

I guess it's because the carriageway going to Madrid is part of the old N-II and has a change of gradient in that point, while the new carriageway is totally flat.

http://goo.gl/zU0iz

After some meters there is a 120 sign again: http://goo.gl/kiY0u


----------



## OriK

Cicerón said:


> But the A-42, although it is going to be refurbished, is not part of the same plan. The plan I was talking about is being financed through public-private partnership (shadow toll or _peaje en sombra_ in Spanish).


I mentioned A-42 because its similarities with the A-X ones (1st generation, radial, heavy traffic and high density of traffic) but you are right, it's not the same plan.


----------



## Suburbanist

*Questions about local road in Aragón/Pirineos area*

Next week I'm travelling to Spain from Italy to San Sebástian/Donostia, Zaragoza, Monte Perdido and Andorra.

I have some questions should anyone have some info to help me:

1) ViaMichelin maps lists a large sector of N330 between Huesca and Sabinágio as "autovias en obras". Is it really a big work site with many retention and detours or not?

2) From Bisca I'm heading east to Torla, then north on A136 up to a small village called Ordesa. This road is partially marked as "in bad state of maintenance". Chances are small, but does anyone here ever drove that sector, listed as scenic on the maps?

3) Has anyone ever driven on N260 between Ainsa and Port de Suret? Is that road jammed because it is summer?

Thanks for any answer


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I believe it was shown on this thread once that that sector N-260 is hardly worth the status of Carretera Nacional.


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Next week I'm travelling to Spain from Italy to San Sebástian/Donostia, Zaragoza, Monte Perdido and Andorra.
> 
> I have some questions should anyone have some info to help me:
> 
> 1) ViaMichelin maps lists a large sector of N330 between Huesca and Sabinágio as "autovias en obras". Is it really a big work site with many retention and detours or not?


No need to go to Huesca. Fastest way is San Sebastián - Pamplona - Jaca - Sabiñánigo.

A little part of it is a motorway and the rest, a normal road. There are major civil works to finish the motorway (very slowly) but you will not have traffic problems in that way.
Road between Huesca and Sabiñánigo is in the same situation, part of it motorway (last two km. opened in march), and the rest of it on works (or... still pending to start on works).





> 2) From Bisca I'm heading east to Torla, then north on A136 up to a small village called Ordesa. This road is partially marked as "in bad state of maintenance". Chances are small, but does anyone here ever drove that sector, listed as scenic on the maps?


VERY IMPORTANT

In all GPS programs, as well as google maps and all main maps it appears as opened a road between Sabiñánigo and Fiscal.
DO NOT TAKE IT
It will be opened next January after twelve years on works... but still not finished.

Road between Sabiñánigo and Biescas is OK but Biescas to Torla is narrow.

But... there is no other alternative.

If summer or high season, at Torla you must park your car in a parking at the entrance (very big, no problem) and take a bus from Torla to the finish of the road inside National Park (one bus every 15 minutes).




> 3) Has anyone ever driven on N260 between Ainsa and Port de Suret? Is that road jammed because it is summer?
> 
> Thanks for any answer


N-260 between Campo and Castejon de Sos has been considered as the worst road of the major network at Spain (national road). There is a thread about that. I think that says all.
Ainsa-Campo, N-260 is perfect but Castejón de Sos-El Pont de Suert is very bad too.

Should you have to go from Ainsa to Andorra la Vella I will recommend you to make:

Ainsa-N-123 (indicated as secondary road but sure, better than other ones. 100 km/h available in most of itinerary).
Get N-123 trhough Benabarre-Viella.
At Benabarre turn right through Lleida (N-230)
At N-230 just when incoming Cataluña turn left between Alfarras and Balaguer.
At Balaguer you have the main road Lleida-Andorra. Just through on.


should you have any more questions about roads at central Pyrenees I would recommend you to post the question here
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=437639&page=154

It is the specific forum for that region, and the thread is the used for roads.

All messages you will see in Spanish but no problem writting in English. Many of us will be able to answer you.

Maybe you can get the chance and ask further information as far as it is the specific forum and most of people who enter there live closed to that area.


Good luck


----------



## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> VERY IMPORTANT
> 
> In all GPS programs, as well as google maps and all main maps it appears as opened a road between Sabiñánigo and Fiscal.
> DO NOT TAKE IT
> It will be opened next January after twelve years on works... but still not finished.
> 
> Road between Sabiñánigo and Biescas is OK but Biescas to Torla is narrow.
> 
> But... there is no other alternative.


In my Garmin device, and also in Google Maps, there is no direct route from Sabiñanigo to Fiscal other than the one through Biescas-Torla.

http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=S...AIdvyb-_ymbHdVYDwNYDTFQIRNKEZCvGg&mra=ls&z=11


----------



## pedro

Suburbanist said:


> Next week I'm travelling to Spain from Italy to San Sebástian/Donostia, Zaragoza, Monte Perdido and Andorra.
> 
> I have some questions should anyone have some info to help me:
> 
> 1) ViaMichelin maps lists a large sector of N330 between Huesca and Sabinágio as "autovias en obras". Is it really a big work site with many retention and detours or not?`


In fact the works consist in the conversion of this road into a free motorway (autovía). This part is just a mountain pass and the new _autovía_ has brand new tunnels. maybe you'll find some small retentions, some small detours and some temporal speed limits. From my point of view it isn'y enough to avoid this route. The worst situation was in winter sunday evenings when everybody was returning from the skiing resrots to Zaragoza and Madrid using that route.




> 2) From *Biescas* I'm heading east to Torla, then north on A136 up to a small village called Ordesa. This road is partially marked as "in bad state of maintenance". Chances are small, but does anyone here ever drove that sector, listed as scenic on the maps?


Ordesa is a National Park, not a village. You won't have the chance of drive in that road if you go in summer. I don't know the exact dates but from June to late september more or less you have to park your car in abig parking in Torla and then take a free (or almost free) shuttle bus to Ordesa. Ordesa is probably one of the most beautiful natural spaces in Spain. It's really worth to visit it and spend at least some hours enough to reach the "cola de caballo" waterfall. That route is very beatiful and could be done in one day. It's even more interesting if you take the "senda de los cazadores" (hunter's path) and climb to nice views pont wher you can see the whoe Ordesa Valley, even the "brecha de Roland" rock.

Anyway you can check the status of that road here:
http://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll...3&panoid=ahE2iBO19H_4KMph-ktEVA&cbp=12,0,,0,0

As you can see it doesn't seem very bad.

The traffic restirction is to preserve the natural park.



> 3) Has anyone ever driven on N260 between Ainsa and Port de Suert? Is that road jammed because it is summer?
> 
> Thanks for any answer


Yes I've drove many times, mainly in the summer. 

It's a national road, but it's not a major route.

The first part from Ainsa to Campo is really good, taking into account that we tal k about a mountain road.

Take a look 
http://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll...=rhvcJiVhrK0W6NE5fYpMAQ&cbp=11,62.01,,0,-4.09

The second part is the worst between Campo and Castejón de Sos.

The road uses a narrow pass between the river and the cliffs and the road is very narrow. Anyway you only have to drive carefully and check if you find a lorry in front of you to find the best place to make the crossing. Look:
http://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll...id=iIL1yUzuI8UJzrzNMsOnwQ&cbp=11,106,,0,-9.77

Finally the last part between Castejón and Pont de Suert is a typical medium mountain pass with low traffic, even in summer, take a look:

http://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll...=WHty6u3KAKnQAG4TOAg_FQ&cbp=11,124.3,,0,-1.32

If you're planning going from Ainsa to Andorra non stop, maybe this is not the best route. In that case it will be better doing the following:
http://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=ai...f-p41z7JBw&mra=dvme&mrsp=2&sz=10&via=1,2&z=10

It's 30 km more, but the route is much better.

If you keep your plans I suggest you the following:
-Visit the Ainsa Village, it's upper part keeps all the tastes of a Medieval town.
-Visit the Eastern part of the Ordesa Part, The Añisclo Canyon, you can drive (only one way) and discover a very nice Pyrean canyon.
-Visit the Gistaín Valley and the Posets Natural Park
-Practice Rafting (there dozens of companies) and ride the brave waters of the Esera river between Campo and Santa Liestra.
-Overpassing the Benasque Valley is a big mistake. It's probably the most beatoful valley in the Pirynees and it has the highest peaks.
-Near el Pont de Suert there's a road that take you to the villages of Boi and Taull. The pre-romanic churches are worth to visit. 
-Just folwoing that road you'll reach the Estany de Sant Maurici National Park which is also worth to visit.


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## pedro

g.spinoza said:


> In my Garmin device, and also in Google Maps, there is no direct route from Sabiñanigo to Fiscal other than the one through Biescas-Torla.
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=S...AIdvyb-_ymbHdVYDwNYDTFQIRNKEZCvGg&mra=ls&z=11


Lucky you, 4 years ago My TOMTOM took me there and I have to drive back again to Sabiñánigo.


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## CNGL

Suburbanist said:


> 1) ViaMichelin maps lists a large sector of N330 between Huesca and Sabinágio as "autovias en obras". Is it really a big work site with many retention and detours or not?
> 
> 2) From Bisca I'm heading east to Torla, then north on A136 up to a small village called Ordesa. This road is partially marked as "in bad state of maintenance". Chances are small, but does anyone here ever drove that sector, listed as scenic on the maps?
> 
> 3) Has anyone ever driven on N260 between Ainsa and Port de Suret? Is that road jammed because it is summer?


Alserrod has already answered this, but I have to write some more things.
1. Are you going to Zaragoza? If not, then follow the route that has already been mentioned. If you go to Zaragoza, then when you go to the Pyrenees you shouldn't miss Huesca. We have some things to see. E07 North of Nueno is still a road, but as said motorway is on works except on the canyon just South of Arguis and just South of Sabiñánigo (You misspelled that).

2. Again, you misspelled Biescas. And you confused A-135 with A-136, which is further West, and goes to the French border at Portalet. There is no village called Ordesa, there's only a parking and a restaurant at the end of A-135, and you can only go there by bus from Torla in summer (This has already been mentioned). And you should go hiking to the Cola de Caballo (Horse's tail), it's a beautiful waterfall.

3. I have clinched all the N-260 in my province (And all the way to la Seu d'Urgell, and then some more in Girona province). As said, from L'Ainsa (Aragonese name ) to Campo it has been renovated, and then to Pont de Suert, already in Catalonia, I would say that road shouldn't be a national road, it's the worst national road in Spain, so it's better to go via A-138, N-123, N-230, C-26 and C-14 to N-260 near la Seu d'Urgell, as said.

BTW, on the Aragonese roads & motorways thread we are now at page 192 (That link is for page 154).


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## Suburbanist

^^ Hey guys, thank you all very much for all feeback. I'll later check that thread, I can read Spanish for most of it, but not write it (I speak Italian and Portuguese, so that helps).

I want to take N260 _because_ it is a mountain road! I love mountain passes, the twists and so. But I like to know what I'm going to face ahead, specially in regard of recent work/traffic.

We just update our plans, added 3 days to our trip. This is where I'm going to drive in Spain:

Donostia-Zaragoza: instead of going via A5/AP15, we'll leave very early, taking N121-A out of Irún. Then, we'll branch off in Bera, than Sare (France), then, back on N121-B to Elizondo and Berroeta, then N121-A again to Pamplona, taking the highway to Zaragoza arriving late at night there and stay for 2 days. We want to drive through some more remote Basque areas, and that seemed a good route.

Zaragoza-Monte Perdido: we'll go to Biscas, Torla and enter the park and enjoy it for the day, spendind the night in Torla. Next day, I'll take pedro's suggestion of the Añisclo Canyon via Fanlo. Then we're headed to Bielsa and Monte Perdido. The next day we'll stay there and visit some other remote spots by hiking or smth. 

Monte Perdido - Andorra: we'll take A138, N260 and A139 until its end. But not rafting. We'll sleep at Benasque. The following day, we take N260, than N230 to Vielhas, then C28 and C13 to Liavorsí crossing Paso Bonaigua, from where we'll enter the valley up to Tavascan, stop in some remote villages to check them out, and go to Sort. Next day we take N260 again and go to Andorra. So it will be a lot of fun, I hope, as we're leaving Thursday after these last-minute changes. I couldn't find online info on Paso Bonaigua, but I assume it is open already (Michelin says it closes December-March) despite the harsh European winter.


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## pedro

I like your program.... i love mountain roads too, but not many people does. A few years ago I made the trip from Bielsa to Andorra via Vielha and Sort. it's very interesting.


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## CNGL

And another thing, we use dashes: A-23, N-240, etc. We use they even on Euroroutes, like E-07, but I prefer to write E07, as it is.


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## g.spinoza

I'll take the opportunity to ask you guys some tips about Spanish roads, since as Suburbanist I'm planning my trip to Spain, next September. My plan draft is:

- Follow all the AP-7 from French border to Alicante then A-7/A-91/A-92 to Granada;
- Basically roam Andalucia, with bases in Granada, then Cadiz and then Sevilla, with blitz into Portugal (maybe Faro) and Gibraltar.
- going back through Merida, Madrid, Zaragoza, Lleida, Andorra.

Do you have any advice (roads to avoid due to roadworks or probable tailbacks?)

Thanks!


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## CNGL

^^ Please don't beat my 4645.5 kilometer mark on Spanish roads! I'm leading right now. But I believe you will make only ~3500 km. Right now there are roadworks on E90 between Calatayud and Zaragoza, so it's better to go on N-234 to Daroca, then A-1508 to Romanos and get into A-23 there to Zaragoza.


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## Suburbanist

CNGL said:


> ^^ Please don't beat my 4645.5 kilometer mark on Spanish roads! .


What do you mean?


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## g.spinoza

CNGL said:


> ^^ Please don't beat my 4645.5 kilometer mark on Spanish roads! I'm leading right now. But I believe you will make only ~3500 km.


Yes, but I will have driven all of them personally...



> Right now there are roadworks on E90 between Calatayud and Zaragoza, so it's better to go on N-234 to Daroca, then A-1508 to Romanos and get into A-23 there to Zaragoza.


Thanks, I'll write that down so I'll remember... any other help is appreciated!



Suburbanist said:


> What do you mean?


It's about Clinched Higways Mapping project... CNGL seems a little obsessed by it


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## Cicerón

g.spinoza said:


> I'll take the opportunity to ask you guys some tips about Spanish roads, since as Suburbanist I'm planning my trip to Spain, next September. My plan draft is:
> 
> - Follow all the AP-7 from French border to Alicante then A-7/A-91/A-92 to Granada;
> - Basically roam Andalucia, with bases in Granada, then Cadiz and then Sevilla, with blitz into Portugal (maybe Faro) and Gibraltar.
> - going back through Merida, Madrid, Zaragoza, Lleida, Andorra.
> 
> Do you have any advice (roads to avoid due to roadworks or probable tailbacks?)
> 
> Thanks!


There are works on the AP-7 in Catalonia to expand it to 2x3: http://www.autopistas.com/autopista-ap-7/var/lang/es/idm/215

If you go from Granada to Cádiz via Málaga you'll find some works on the A-45 due to the construction of the AP-46 and the new bypass of Málaga. Then you can take the AP-7 in Fuengirola. If you choose A-7 instead, you'll find a very substandard _autovía_ up to Marbella. No shoulders, no acceleration/deceleration lanes... On the N-340 near the town of San Pedro de Alcántara, just after Marbella, there are road works due to the construction of a tunnel for the future A-7. The A-7/N-340 from San Pedro de Alcántara to Algeciras is the same kind of road as the Fuengirola-Marbella, you'll even find roundabouts from Estepona to Sotogrande :lol:. So if you want a fast drive, just take the AP-7.

Once in Algeciras you can take the autovía A-381 to Jerez or the N-340 to Tarifa, the southernmost point of the Iberian Peninsula. The N-340 is usually more crowded.

From Madrid to Zaragoza there are roadworks on the A-2. You can avoid the stretch from Calatayud to Zaragoza as CNGL said.


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## g.spinoza

Cicerón said:


> There are works on the AP-7 in Catalonia to expand it to 2x3: http://www.autopistas.com/autopista-ap-7/var/lang/es/idm/215


Thank you, but coming from Italy I think that stretch is almost unavoidable



> If you go from Granada to Cádiz via Málaga you'll find some works on the A-45 due to the construction of the AP-46 and the new bypass of Málaga. Then you can take the AP-7 in Fuengirola. If you choose A-7 instead, you'll find a very substandard _autovía_ up to Marbella. No shoulders, no acceleration/deceleration lanes... On the N-340 near the town of San Pedro de Alcántara, just after Marbella, there are road works due to the construction of a tunnel for the future A-7. The A-7/N-340 from San Pedro de Alcántara to Algeciras is the same kind of road as the Fuengirola-Marbella, you'll even find roundabouts from Estepona to Sotogrande :lol:. So if you want a fast drive, just take the AP-7.


From Granada to Cadiz I was thinking more about taking A-92 and then AP-4 at Sevilla.



> Once in Algeciras you can take the autovía A-381 to Jerez or the N-340 to Tarifa, the southernmost point of the Iberian Peninsula. The N-340 is usually more crowded.


Thank you about this advice... I'd like to take them both. I'm planning to go to Gibraltar while staying in Cadiz, so probabily I will take the A-381 for the journey there and the N-340 for coming back, when one is usually more relaxed and has no tight schedule.



> From Madrid to Zaragoza there are roadworks on the A-2. You can avoid the stretch from Calatayud to Zaragoza as CNGL said.


Are they really that bad? Chances of getting queues are high?


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## CNGL

Yes, the chances of getting queues there are really really high! (Unless if you go there by night) When I was returning from Guadalajara last easter I got trapped in slow traffic all the way from La Almunia to Zaragoza, as there is only one lane for all traffic.


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## Cicerón

g.spinoza said:


> Thank you, but coming from Italy I think that stretch is almost unavoidable


Yeah, but don't worry, it's no big deal. 



g.spinoza said:


> Are they really that bad? Chances of getting queues are high?


The works are part of the plan for refurbishing the so-called first-generation autovías. I don't know exactly how the things are on the A-2, but the works they are doing on the A-1 (part of the same plan) are a pain in the ass , there are many stretches limited to 80 or even 60 km/h with only one lane per direction... This is a picture of the works on the A-1:










However, the A-2 has less traffic since it's less used for traffic going from Africa to France of vice-versa.

Anyway, you can always go to this page and check "obras" (lower right side):
http://infocar.dgt.es/etraffic/Busc...version=mapa&pagina=null&accion_buscar=Buscar


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## g.spinoza

^^ Thanks guys, your infos are really precious!! :cheers:


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## pedro

The toughest thing will be crossing Madrid in a labour day. However if you do it in July-August the intensity will be less. I don't know if it's worth to avoid the A-2 between Calatayud and Zaragoza. Another alternative is a small road that goes in parallel with the Jalon River. It's not fast, but the road is very beatiful with the river and railway line all in parallel. Take a look:
http://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll...d=gukQy8Aje12mnyEvqNWOWA&cbp=12,335.2,,0,0.76


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## g.spinoza

^^ I will be leaving Spain and crossing Madrid on September 16th, Friday...


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## OriK

^^ Crossing Madrid only requires to avoid rush hours (Sept-Jun / 7am-10am / 13-15 / 18-20) or going through toll roads but if you are not going to visit Madrid, you can use the M-50 and you will avoid most traffic jams.

But if you try to go to Madrid on rush hours, you will be delayed as much as 1 hour in most corridors.

If you are going to visit Madrid I suggest you to leave the car outside the M-30 perimeter (free parking on street) and use metro/bus/cercanias to visit the city.


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## g.spinoza

^^ No, I will not visit Madrid... no time, unfortunately. It will be Sevilla-Andorra on the 16th and Andorra-Brescia (via Grenoble) on the 17th...


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## Shulamithie

*Suburbanist*, as I see some people have already answered you. 
From Zaragoza to Torla the best way is A-23 > N-330 > N-260, as you have been said. It's the most direct one and works now aren't as problematic as two years ago (speed limit in tunnels was 40 Km/h). 
But in case you prefer funnier roads and remote villages, I recommend you to visit the Aragonese thread.


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## Coccodrillo

Cicerón said:


> This is a picture of the works on the A-1:


Why a 1+0+1 layout instead of 1+2 or 2+1?


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## Cicerón

Sometimes it is 2+1.


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## pedro

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ No, I will not visit Madrid... no time, unfortunately. It will be Sevilla-Andorra on the 16th and Andorra-Brescia (via Grenoble) on the 17th...


¡Sevilla-Andorra in one day! That's a lot of distance... Almost 1200 km and the last 150 are in a normal road, crossing many villages.

Are you planning to visit Andorra? Because if next day you'll continue to Grenoble and Brescia, maybe it's better to take another way.

Seville-Grenoble is 1756 km via Andorra and from Lleida to almost Perpignan you have no motorway.

If you do Sevilla-Córdoba-Manzanares-Valencia-Barcelona You'll save 130 km and all the road will be in motorways (some with toll).


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## Morsue

A small tip from me to avoid the tolls on the stretch from Valencia to Alicante is to go through the interior. Check out this link.

Follow the A-7 signs directing you towards Alicante por interior. Follow that road in the direction of Albacete until you arrive at the junction with the A-31 near Almansa. The A-31 is a really fun road to drive, my favorite in Spain in fact. You'll save some €14 on tolls plus it's 16 kms shorter.


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## g.spinoza

pedro said:


> ¡Sevilla-Andorra in one day! That's a lot of distance... Almost 1200 km and the last 150 are in a normal road, crossing many villages.
> 
> Are you planning to visit Andorra? Because if next day you'll continue to Grenoble and Brescia, maybe it's better to take another way.
> 
> Seville-Grenoble is 1756 km via Andorra and from Lleida to almost Perpignan you have no motorway.
> 
> If you do Sevilla-Córdoba-Manzanares-Valencia-Barcelona You'll save 130 km and all the road will be in motorways (some with toll).


Yes the last part of the journey is still changeable, I just want to see Andorra only to say "yes, I've been there"... because I came to understand that there is not very much to see there... but this could be an advantage, just stay overnight, a couple of hours in the morning to visit and then back to Italy.

If I could make Sevilla-Brescia in one day I think there would be no reason to go to Andorra... but it cannot be done, and I have to divide the journey in two days anyway, so, why not visit the Principat?


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I believe it was shown on this thread once that that sector N-260 is hardly worth the status of Carretera Nacional.




Nowadays, some parts are fantastic and other parts are horrible.


At the aragonese part (central Pyrenees)

Janovas-Ainsa and Ainsa-Campo are fantastic
Campo-Castejón de Sos and Castejon de Sos - El Pont de Suert are very bad

Sabiñánigo-Biescas is all right but later is horrible too. But this part will be as secondary road next year as well as Sabiñánigo-Fiscal will have a new road (including a 3 km tunnel).

Just Fiscal-Janovas will have very bad road for just 10 km... But Sabiñánigo-Fiscal-Ainsa-Campo will be all right except in those 10 km.

From Sabiñanigo there will be (not now but on works) free highway to Pamplona and Huesca-Zaragoza, as well as Jaca is only 21 km away from Somport tunnel (8 km international road tunnel to France and... free of toll)


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## pedro

Andorra is nice, is a very small country full of mountains. But I think that it's worth to spend more than two hours on it. Just going to sleep may not be the best option due to the bad roads that you'll have to take to arrive and to left the country.

From Zaragoza to Andorra takes the same time than from Zaragoza to Barcelona. If you take the coastal route you'll have the chance to sleep in any coastal town with lots of hotels.


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## CNGL

g.spinoza said:


> Yes the last part of the journey is still changeable, I just want to see Andorra *only to say "yes, I've been there"...* because I came to understand that there is not very much to see there... but this could be an advantage, just stay overnight, a couple of hours in the morning to visit and then back to Italy.


Well, in January I visited a town which is located 40 km Northeast of Barcelona only to yell "I've been there!" the next day here in SSC. I have some forumers about to commit suicide because of that town and so many times I write its name.

I reached that town by commuter train, but I had time for clinch 400 meters of N-II .


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## Cicerón

Google Street View has just been updated in Spain, as well as in many other countries:


> Release 37 / June 29, 2011; 0 days ago
> Isle of Man, Jersey, more locations in the United States, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Denmark, Taiwan, South Africa


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Hey guys, thank you all very much for all feeback. I'll later check that thread, I can read Spanish for most of it, but not write it (I speak Italian and Portuguese, so that helps).
> 
> I want to take N260 _because_ it is a mountain road! I love mountain passes, the twists and so. But I like to know what I'm going to face ahead, specially in regard of recent work/traffic.
> 
> We just update our plans, added 3 days to our trip. This is where I'm going to drive in Spain:
> 
> Donostia-Zaragoza: instead of going via A5/AP15, we'll leave very early, taking N121-A out of Irún. Then, we'll branch off in Bera, than Sare (France), then, back on N121-B to Elizondo and Berroeta, then N121-A again to Pamplona, taking the highway to Zaragoza arriving late at night there and stay for 2 days. We want to drive through some more remote Basque areas, and that seemed a good route.


Suggestion. Get at least one or two days to visit Zaragoza. It will impress you.

You can use this page (it is in English) to plan your visit. They recommend you some tipplical 24-48-72 hours visit but you can select wich kind of things you are more interesting and visit will be updated.




> Zaragoza-Monte Perdido: we'll go to Bi*e*scas,


biEscas

Zaragoza-Nueno is highway. 120 km/h
Nueno-Biescas is road. 80-100 km/h except some point.

Biescas-Torla is worst but one of best panoramics




> Torla and enter the park and enjoy it for the day, spendind the night in Torla.


There are enough hotels in environment. It is mandatory to park the car at Torla and get a bus to enter on National Park. (It is also another way to check that no more than 1800 people are at the same time inside that valley... the maximum recommended).


From final bus stop you can get the way until the final of the valley. It finish on a waterfall. 
Aprox. 3h going and 2,5 h back.
Impossible to get lost because it is the only possible way. Almost 3/4 of the path can be made with an off-road car (but only national park guards cars are allowed there. There are too many restrictions)

The "hunter path" (senda de los cazadores) is nice (you can ask for information in the park office) but requires a high level of trekking.




> Next day, I'll take pedro's suggestion of the Añisclo Canyon via Fanlo. Then we're headed to Bielsa and Monte Perdido. The next day we'll stay there and visit some other remote spots by hiking or smth.



Should you want to visit interesting panoramics, this road (it is "less than a local road") it is ESSENTIAL.

But one important detail: it is a one-way-road, from east to west. So then, I recommend you to go to Ainsa (visiting this old town takes no more than one-two hours and it is essential too... and you have to cross that town), turn to France and at Escalona turn left to Añisclo Canyon.

At google street view you can have a look of this road. You can drive 30 km/h or... more slowly, enjoying mountains.
Way back to Ainsa can be made via Bio (parallel road).






> Monte Perdido - Andorra: we'll take A138, N260 and A139 until its end. But not rafting. We'll sleep at Benasque.


At Benasque you can get some "off-road buses" which go very, very high.
Page is only in Spanish but easy to get timetables and ways.

Before going to El Pont de Suert I will recommend you to turn right until Roda de Isabena. It is a 40 people village with a cathedral!!!! (first of all, two cathedrals where built: Jaca and Roda. Later Huesca was built but Roda bishop moved to Barbastro (new cathedral)... but... Roda cathedral instead exists as the first day!!!
Apart of that, pics are fantastic from here. You can see Turbon mountain from north... and south, and Obarra strait.




> The following day, we take N260, than N230 to Vielhas, then C28 and C13 to Liavorsí crossing Paso Bonaigua, from where we'll enter the valley up to Tavascan, stop in some remote villages to check them out, and go to Sort. Next day we take N260 again and go to Andorra. So it will be a lot of fun, I hope, as we're leaving Thursday after these last-minute changes. I couldn't find online info on Paso Bonaigua, but I assume it is open already (Michelin says it closes December-March) despite the harsh European winter.


You will have no problem at Bonaigua (and rest of ports). If snow, you can have some problems some days... but it is a main road and only if hard snow on winter can create problems.




Good luck.


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## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> I'll take the opportunity to ask you guys some tips about Spanish roads, since as Suburbanist I'm planning my trip to Spain, next September. My plan draft is:
> 
> - Follow all the AP-7 from French border to Alicante then A-7/A-91/A-92 to Granada;
> - Basically roam Andalucia, with bases in Granada, then Cadiz and then Sevilla, with blitz into Portugal (maybe Faro) and Gibraltar.
> - going back through Merida, Madrid, Zaragoza, Lleida, Andorra.
> 
> Do you have any advice (roads to avoid due to roadworks or probable tailbacks?)
> 
> Thanks!



THIS YEAR... AVOID A-2 between La Almunia and Zaragoza. If you are making a long trip it could be not only slow and a nuisance but also dangerous if tired.


From Madrid to Lleida you can choose these two alternatives:

- A-2 until Calatayud or La Almunia, turn right with regional or national roads to get A-23 and later way to Zaragoza. Same way but more kilometres.

- A-2 until Alcolea del Pinar. N-211 direction Teruel until Monreal del Campo. Later Caminreal, Montalban, Alcañiz, Caspe, Fraga and there... highway A-2 to Lleida (if destination is Andorra do not get AP-2 toll motorway because it goes to the south of Lleida, get A-2 which goes on the north).


Andalucia-Barcelona can be made by A-4 until Manzanares and later highway to Valencia and toll motorway to Barcelona (it is possible to avoid some parts of toll as well as there are some parallel free highways) or... the same alternative I commented via Alcolea del Pinar, and at Alcañiz... via Tarragona.


Crossing Madrid should have no problem if avoid early morning, 18-20h (but less than on mornings) and sunday evenings.


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## alserrod

pedro said:


> Andorra is nice, is a very small country full of mountains. But I think that it's worth to spend more than two hours on it. Just going to sleep may not be the best option due to the bad roads that you'll have to take to arrive and to left the country.
> 
> From Zaragoza to Andorra takes the same time than from Zaragoza to Barcelona. If you take the coastal route you'll have the chance to sleep in any coastal town with lots of hotels.




I agree with Pedro.
Two hours at Andorra aren't enough. You have there the biggest natural Spa (http://www.caldea.com/en/) all over Europe, apart of more resorts, adventure paths on summer, etc...

Some important things about Andorra:

- It is NOT part of European Union. No problem to enter there for UE citizens with passport anyway but... it is not UE nation. (yes.. really, event if Euro is official coin and country capital is 10 km away from Spain and 20 away from France).
- ALL the country is a duty free shop, as far as they do not pay taxes as in any other UE country. Very expensive goods can be cheaper just only because avoiding VAT and other taxes.
But... take care with customs (event French or Spanish). In both countries will stop ALL cars and check one suitcase to see whath you are carrying.
There are maximum quantities to cross with nothing to declare.

Anyways... if you enter Andorra... exit there with your fuel tank FULLLLLLL. Gasoline is much, much, much cheaper than at France or Spain.


----------



## g.spinoza

Thanks alserrod. I still don't know about going to Andorra. Our vacation is Andalucia, and given that we don't have much time (12-13 days, including more than 3 for the trip) I think it could not be worth it. It's always better trying not to "over-do" too many things.


----------



## Road_UK

alserrod said:


> I agree with Pedro.
> Two hours at Andorra aren't enough. You have there the biggest natural Spa (http://www.caldea.com/en/) all over Europe, apart of more resorts, adventure paths on summer, etc...
> 
> Some important things about Andorra:
> 
> - It is NOT part of European Union. No problem to enter there for UE citizens with passport anyway but... it is not UE nation. (yes.. really, event if Euro is official coin and country capital is 10 km away from Spain and 20 away from France).
> - ALL the country is a duty free shop, as far as they do not pay taxes as in any other UE country. Very expensive goods can be cheaper just only because avoiding VAT and other taxes.
> But... take care with customs (event French or Spanish). In both countries will stop ALL cars and check one suitcase to see whath you are carrying.
> There are maximum quantities to cross with nothing to declare.
> 
> Anyways... if you enter Andorra... exit there with your fuel tank FULLLLLLL. Gasoline is much, much, much cheaper than at France or Spain.


And get some cigarettes! I get mine in Gibraltar when I'm there...


----------



## g.spinoza

Fortunately, I don't smoke...


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> Fortunately, I don't smoke...


That's even cheaper!


----------



## alserrod

off-topic

and CDs or other storage devices (including normal music CDs)

At least at Spain there is a tax for those devices (even for original music CD) very expensive (some device as a pendrive can be cheap... but a hugh part of price are special taxes). They do not exist at Andorra so... the same CD bought there can be cheeeeeaper (and they have ALL you can ask)


PD. and for travellers... gasoline is much cheaper.



off-topic end


----------



## MrAkumana

Vic - Ripoll motorway upgrade/conversion of C-17 opened today.
(located north of Barcelona direction Carcassonne more or less)


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> off-topic
> 
> and CDs or other storage devices (including normal music CDs)
> 
> At least at Spain there is a tax for those devices (even for original music CD) very expensive (some device as a pendrive can be cheap... but a hugh part of price are special taxes). They do not exist at Andorra so... the same CD bought there can be cheeeeeaper (and they have ALL you can ask)
> 
> 
> PD. and for travellers... gasoline is much cheaper.
> 
> 
> 
> off-topic end


Just out of curiosity, do European Union citizens need to pay taxes or duty or whatever, when they get home, on products bought in Andorra?


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> Just out of curiosity, do European Union citizens need to pay taxes or duty or whatever, when they get home, on products bought in Andorra?


If you're driving, and French customs stop you, then yes, they will make you pay. If you're lucky, and they don't stop you, then go like hell and take them home. If you're going to Britain, then British customs may want to have a word with you, if you haven't paid any duties to the French. When you get home, and nobody bothered you on your way - then keep your mouth shut.


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> Just out of curiosity, do European Union citizens need to pay taxes or duty or whatever, when they get home, on products bought in Andorra?




There are borders and customs with France and Spain, so you have to pay all taxes as if you come from outside European Union.

This is... similar as if you buy anything in an airport duty free shop outside UE. You can buy all you want but later when landing, you may know if you have to declare it or not.

Quantities that can be imported off-duty are the same than in any airport, for example. The difference is that in a plane you have one or two suitcases and in a car... you can have it full of goods.

At Spanish customs, police stop ALL cars, open them and choose just one suitcase. You show what you carry there... and if no problem, continue. But all cars are stopped.

Another thing that is controlled (and more difficult but recently they took some cases) is money. Andorra has no taxes and you can open there a bank account and give your money. They will use in finantial markets and you earn money as in your normal bank but... they do not report anything to other countries (and they have a specific law for "bank secret").
This means you can go of tourism and carry a lot of money in the car (no plane, no X-ray controls, etc...). Once you enter, you can open an account and will be semi-secret for your local authorities. You earn money and, when you need it, you ask it in bank notes and cross the border again.

Should you be stopped with money entering Andorra you are accused because leaving money not declared
Should you be stopped with money going out Andorra you will be asked how did you earned so much money inside (and too many questions...)


It is totally legal to have there an account and declare every movement you make at your country (just making by bank transfer means it is declared as an international transfer outside UE). But... all money earned at Andorra must be declared (authorities will ask for that money...)

The only way, absolute legal and some sport players have made is having legal residence INSIDE Andorra. It is less than 300 km away from Barcelona and... you avoid any kind of taxes.


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## alserrod

Coming back about Spanish motorways, after some months of restrictions (110 km/h), since today, maximum speed allowed is set in 120 km/h again for all network.


----------



## pmalenkin

|| From VALLADOLID to REINOSA in Spain ||

Map here: http://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=Ca...dHebA_w&mra=dpe&mrsp=2&sz=15&via=1,2&t=h&z=11


----------



## pmalenkin

Part 2:


----------



## pmalenkin

Part 3:


----------



## pmalenkin

|| From SANTANDER Airport to VALLADOLID ||

Map here: http://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=Ca...qIewIdVyS4_w&mra=dpe&mrsp=2&sz=16&via=1,2&z=8


----------



## pmalenkin

Part 2:


----------



## pmalenkin

Part 3:


----------



## alserrod

Thanks for pictures...

A-67 motorway was finnally opened (last part, because every year some km. were opened) in july 2009.

There is a thread about it and you will find too many information and photos.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=382068&page=16


----------



## solchante

thanks pmalenkin


----------



## CNGL

g.spinoza said:


> Thanks, I'll write that down so I'll remember... any other help is appreciated!


I made a mistake! It's A-1506 no A-1508! (The A-1508 runs further South)


----------



## tompaw

Guys, I need your advice - what's the fastest (in terms of time) route from Marbella to Narbonne? A month ago, when I came to Marbella, I took the A(P)-7, but there is a problem with that missing part in south east... so maybe some other way? Obviously, preferred roads are toll motorways, but time factor is the most important. Thanks in advance.


----------



## CNGL

In Malaga take the A-45 up to the Las Pedrizas pass (AP-46 is still U/C), then the A-92M which merges with A-92 towards Granada. There go North on A-44 to E05 (Which is in reconstruction but not as bad as the E90 between la Almunia and Zaragoza), in Manzanares take the A-43 to the East and finally the E901 for re-enter E15 in Valencia. 
It's 30 km shorther than all the way via the coast and you avoid Murcia and Alicante, at some times there are lots of traffic in the section of E15 linking those two cities.


----------



## tompaw

^^ Thanks for the tip, buddy. I'll be leaving tomorrow morning, hopefully the traffic's not so bad on Sundays.


----------



## CNGL

Then you can stay on A-92 until Guadix, then take the A-92N which becomes A-91 at the regional border and ends at E15, it's the same distance. But in that zone (Around Lorca) happened an earthquake a couple of months ago, so I don't know how it's the E15 now...


----------



## alserrod

Yesterday was 15th July, and this weekend will be a lot of traffic specially on touristic areas.

Way recommended by CNGL is nice. A little longer but avoids a lot of coast. The most difficult point is just when leaving Andalucia. Highway is horrible and it is on works. You will see them and the way you could get next year (they are very advanced).
It has only the problem that you may cross Valencia and all the coast between there and Barcelona and could have congestion.

Another alternatives:

Drive through Madrid (if crossing on sunday except evening-night, no problem) and take direction Zaragoza. In the km. 135 of the A-2 get direction Tarragona. It is a normal road but very good and no traffic (the national road with less traffic in Spain). 
It is a big longer but be sure no problem on traffic

http://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=ma...YgHBA&mra=dpe&mrsp=4&sz=6&via=1,2,3,4&t=h&z=6



Another option:

Crossing Pyrenees by the middle. A bit longer but sure no problem of traffic. There is motorway in all the traject except between near Huesca and Pau. The mountains are crossed by a 8,6 km tunnel and... it will not be the highest point of the route (between Madrid and Zaragoza there is a little highest point).

http://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=ma...&mra=dvme&mrsp=4&sz=7&via=1,2,3,4,5,6&t=h&z=7


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## tompaw

Thanks again  I will take lots of picture and report the trip afterwards (it's a part from my ride back home from Marbella to Krakow).


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## alserrod

In this case... consider my second option. You enter France by the middle of the Pyrenees, go to Toulouse and, instead of going to Mediterranean, get North and later west through Dijon.

Later, the same way for any cases.


Way is very easy. At Marbella always direction Madrid (First Malaga, Granada, Jaén, but always Madrid), later Zaragoza and later Huesca-Pau. It is indicated as A-23, and E-07.

There are about 180 km of normal road. The rest is motorway (all ones in Spain will be free).
International tunnel of 8,6 km and at Pau, directon Toulouse and later, north.

Maybe... less kilometres indeed!!!!!

Get your fuel tank full at Spain, it is cheaper as you see.


----------



## tompaw

So far the two things I learnt about Spanish motorways are:

1) VISA credit cards work EVERYWHERE but on Spanish toll roads and parkings, where noone speaks english and can explain why ;-)
2) most petrol stations in Spain are NOT 24/7 (this almost made me sleep for 6h somewhere near AP7)


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## alserrod

1- Visa and Mastercard... I think are accepted in all places that accept credit cards. Of course not all bussiness accept them (you can enter on a little restaurant that accept only cash, for example) but should they accept Cards, Visa and Mastercard will be accepted.
This is important to remark because, for example, American Express is allowed in few places only.
About languages... as I said on another thread, Spain was isolated until the 60s. There was an "unculture" about languages. No business with other countries, no need to speak foreing languages.
Today all school and high schools have at least one, sometimes two languages mandatory, and there are programs in some of them where 50% of classes are given in a foreing language (yeah!!!!, think if Maths, History and someone else is explained by the teacher in another language)
But... people who learn languages correctly... be sure they will not be on a parking or petrol station working.

2- About petrol station... AP-7 is a toll motorway. All toll motorways must (by law) have a petrol station about every 35 km and one out of two must open 24h.
In new signals they indicate timetable for petrol stations and where is the next 24h. Some of them are automatic. This is, 24h but only self service with credit card... but you could fill up your tank.

If stopping in the road because no fuel you can be fined. And highest if it is a motorway.
Police usually do not fine in those case because they know that money and troubles you have had are higher than the fine they can put you... but it could be reason of fine.


----------



## tompaw

Well, I have 2 visa cards: a debit and a credit one. None of them works on autopistas.

Anyway, thanks for your advices. We left Marbella at 6am, by 11 we were passing Valencia  You guys have great roads, the views are amazing. Also, no traffic so far!


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## alserrod

I am really surprised because credit cards, not only because they allow most of them but also because they are interested in cars paying as fast as they can and avoid congestion on toll cabins.

About "great roads", general network is good. It could be better. Sometimes you may decide to make a "tour" by motorway or decide to get a normal road direct. Other times you ask yourself why this motorway is a toll one and the next one is free (and when you have to cross it frequently... the point of view changes).


About service areas at motorways, as I said, I think that on toll motorways it is mandatory one every 35 km (or maybe 40???, not sure... but those distances...) and one out of two must be opened 24h.


This is a photo from the AP-68 taken just very near my city. In the signal they point that the service area is opened 24h and the next one is 30 km. away but opens only 7h-23h.
You can decide to get fuel or continue depending of your tank situation, the distances and... if day or night.


And it is easy to undestand. "Sobradiel" is the name of the rest area (and the name of the little village closed there). Some pics indicates petrol station, bar, restaurant...
Later they say the schedule. In this case, "0 a 24 h"
Finnally, next rest area. It is in 30 km, and opened "7 a 23h"


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## alserrod

It is only in Spanish but I recommend anyone who is going to drive in Spain this summer to download it, translate and read carefully.

It is an official press note made by traffic authority about journeys in summer. Eight pages where they say something about the most used motorways, which dates are important to avoid (or use alternative ways).
In the page 6 you will find the accidents per summer since 2000 (number of people death in july and august because car accident). It has a really decreasing tendence... but it is responsibility of everyone to keep it down.


Should anyone be interested on it and have problems with translation, do not hesitate to ask for help.

http://www.dgt.es/was6/portal/conte...a_campanas/notas_prensa/NotasDePrensa0121.pdf


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## alserrod

And... apart of some police cars that have a radar inside, there are many points with fixed radars. You can have a look in the official page:

http://www.dgt.es/portal/es/informacion_carreteras/radares/



Important!. Catalonian and Basque roads do not appear there. They have their own page.


There are two "branch radars". They do not control if your speed is 120 km/h in one exact point but... if your average speed was 120 between two points... 
The rest of radars must be checked by province or road. You should know your traject, number of roads or name of provinces you will cross.

As before... just ask for any question


----------



## Lebanese_Almaghrebia

*Spain has one of world's most amazing highways!* They are so smooth and nice to drive on. The landscape is just :cheers: I would love to see Morocco build highways like the one's in Spain instead of the French model.

The only problem is that Spain just hasn't got that many gas stations and they aren't that clean.


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## sotonsi

alserrod said:


> 1- Visa and Mastercard... I think are accepted in all places that accept credit cards. Of course not all bussiness accept them (you can enter on a little restaurant that accept only cash, for example) but should they accept Cards, Visa and Mastercard will be accepted.


There are exceptions - things such as sporting events. Certainly you needed to have one type and not the other (which caused a lot of annoyance) to enter the lottery for Olympic tickets as one of the two is an Official Sponser.


----------



## alserrod

sotonsi said:


> There are exceptions - things such as sporting events. Certainly you needed to have one type and not the other (which caused a lot of annoyance) to enter the lottery for Olympic tickets as one of the two is an Official Sponser.




off-topic... I will try to pay attention but I do not remember anywhere (even if it is a sporting event, concert or anything special) where you may pay with a concrete credit card only.

Anywhere, in ALL cases, cash money must be allowed (legal reasons... most of times will be easier to pay by bank account or credit card but all companies must assure you can pay in cash)

As I say, I do not remember cases for only one credit card. What it is very usual is when a bank is a sponsor of an event and tickets are sold on their office and cash dispenser. In those cases they will put different commision if you use any card from that bank or from another bank... but it will doesn't matter if it is a visa, mastercard or any other... The computering system only takes care if it is from that bank or another one to calculate the commission, nothing about the type of car

(when I was student and had debit cards free as student, I had different ones from different banks to save money when buying tickets, because sometimes I had to buy in one bank, othertimes in another one... and when you are student, you know... let's save money anywhere...)


off-topic end


----------



## mmmartin

Hi. On which side of this thread can I find more about Tenerife and Gran Canaria motorways? Many thanks!


----------



## alserrod

mmmartin said:


> Hi. On which side of this thread can I find more about Tenerife and Gran Canaria motorways? Many thanks!




I will recommend you this thread 
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=238559&page=17

It is one specific of infrastructures at Canary Islands. Post will be in Spanish but no problem if writting in English. I am sure someone will answer you.

If it is about the island of Fuerteventura I can tell you anything. It is the only one I know.

Anyway... all islands there are small. The two in the centre have the biggest population (Santa Cruz and Las Palmas are between the biggest Spanish cities) and there are some motorways because traffic.

Any Spanish law applies there, even for traffic, even for any other thing.
For example, the web I posted yesterday about Spanish radars is able too at Canary Islands (the traffic authority is the same).

There are some people who think they have arrived on tourism on an African islands in the middle of the jungle... and the reality is that there are not too many differences (apart of distance and always needing a plane) between there and the south of Spain, for example. Thrue that you are closed to Tropic... but it is only one out of the 17 Spanish regions.


And... just if you have a map, follow it. There are not too many roads to get lost.

An important remark. Both of them, specially Tenerife, have mountains in the middle. This will make some roads nice and other ones very hard.
The highest peak in Spain is Teide, at Tenerife (it is always a question on exam at School, second one is Mulhacen closed to Granada and third one is Aneto, at Aragon in the Pyrenees... but the highest is at Canary islands). This means... think in a little island with a 3.700m peak...


----------



## CNGL

Green A-5 and blue E90: http://maps.google.es/maps?ll=40.106519,-4.332776&spn=0,0.019248&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.106797,-4.332908&panoid=DCiYQeYe-uUfagD6F7NidA&cbp=12,261.6,,1,16.53. Who said that shield switches only occur in the US?


----------



## DOMAN

Hi!

Where I can find maps of autopistas/autovias network form past (I need year 1985/1990/1995/2000/2005)?

Anybody know?


----------



## alserrod

Enter here and have a look to all pages since the first one. You will find some "historical" maps.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=18465&page=110


Thread is in Spanish but for a map, no problem about language.

If you need a specific map, ask for it. No problem making question in English.


----------



## Cicerón

DOMAN said:


> Hi!
> 
> Where I can find maps of autopistas/autovias network form past (I need year 1985/1990/1995/2000/2005)?
> 
> Anybody know?


They are hard to find. If you are really interested you can buy some maps on the internet. 

Anyway, I found these:

31st december 2001: http://www.zonu.com/fullsize/2010-07-26-11891/Mapa-de-carreteras-de-Espana.html

This one looks like from the year 2000. No idea what the red dots mean: http://www.zonu.com/fullsize2/2009-12-02-11281/Mapa-de-Carreteras-de-Espana.html


I have a bunch of old maps, including the Official Road Map from the Spanish ministry of Public Works from 1997 and the Campsa Guide 2000 (as famous in Spain as the official map, or even more). I can scan some pages if you want


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## DOMAN

Cicerón - to be honest I need only approximate maps like this one from Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Red_espa%C3%B1ola_de_autopistas_y_autov%C3%ADas2.PNG, but with main cities. It can be even more approximated. I don't need names and numbers of this roads. I have to only know which main cities were connected with motorways in a given year. 

Generally I need map from a few years: around 1980, 1986, something from mid 90's and 2000.

I thought that Ministerio de Fomento has such a maps in their website (to show people how the are good in building roads  ).

Probably I can find some maps in Europe Motorway Atlas. I have one from 1992...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

As far as I know motorway openings in Spain are poorly documented, few are known by exact date or year, except for more recent openings. So it will be hard to create such a map now.


----------



## DOMAN

Ok, but I can also obtain this information from old polical maps. Some trace is http://www2.ign.es/ane/ane1986-2008/ - Atlas Nacional de Espana. But navigation in this stuff is really difficult.


----------



## alserrod

Talking by head (needs to be checked)

Until 1991 only toll motorways. Most of those which appears today, except the one from the south of Madrid through Albacete, the one near Malaga and someones near Madrid and Barcelona (I think I do not miss anyone).

In 1991-92 they were opened to traffic:

- A-1 Madrid-Burgos and most (but not all) Miranda-San Sebastián
- A-2 Madrid-Zaragoza
- A-3 Part of Madrid-Valencia
and branch to Alicante (and later branch Almansa-Valencia)
- A-4 Madrid-Sevilla
- A-5 Madrid-Badajoz (not full, it was finished some years later)
- A-6 Madrid-La Coruña, most of it but not full
- Tordesillas-Valladolid-Burgos
- Sevilla-Granada
- Pamplona-San Sebastián
- Bilbao-Santander


and... I am not sure but I think that no more, except little motorways near main cities.


Further... you can see at wikipedia the day of opening of every motorway later than these ones.


----------



## Cicerón

DOMAN said:


> Cicerón - to be honest I need only approximate maps like this one from Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Red_espa%C3%B1ola_de_autopistas_y_autov%C3%ADas2.PNG, but with main cities. It can be even more approximated. I don't need names and numbers of this roads. I have to only know which main cities were connected with motorways in a given year.
> 
> Generally I need map from a few years: around 1980, 1986, something from mid 90's and 2000.
> 
> I thought that Ministerio de Fomento has such a maps in their website (to show people how the are good in building roads  ).
> 
> Probably I can find some maps in Europe Motorway Atlas. I have one from 1992...


That will be hard to get. Anyway, here you have, only autopistas, autovías and main roads are shown:

Mapa Oficial de Carreteras 1997, Ministerio de Fomento:









Large size:
West | Centre | East

Guía Campsa 2000:









Large size:
West | East




ChrisZwolle said:


> As far as I know motorway openings in Spain are poorly documented, few are known by exact date or year, except for more recent openings. So it will be hard to create such a map now.


+1.


----------



## Suburbanist

I have a 1992 Michelin Spain Road Map. But it is not in my Dutch residence. It lays somewhere on a dusty box. What I recall from my detailed examination of those early 1990s maps I took from my parents is that there were not many freeways in Spain at that time (neither in Portugal), and that an all-freeway link between Portugal and Spain didn't exist, and that many, many freeways were marked as "autovía en obras".


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> I have a 1992 Michelin Spain Road Map. But it is not in my Dutch residence. It lays somewhere on a dusty box. What I recall from my detailed examination of those early 1990s maps I took from my parents is that there were not many freeways in Spain at that time (neither in Portugal), and that an all-freeway link between Portugal and Spain didn't exist, and that many, many freeways were marked as "autovía en obras".



Toll motorways, most of actual ones, where opened in the late 70s.

Rest of motorways (toll free) where opened in 1991-92, and sometimes part of them later. 
There was an ambitious road plan that made too many motorways for the 92.
Several reasons and remarks:

- In 1992 they were celebrated Olimpyc Games at Barcelona, Cultural Capital at Madrid and Universal Exhibition at Sevilla. As well, it was the fifth anniversary of America discovery. Too many people visited the country.
- Most of motorways were made using the old road. This is, just only the second way and... two lanes per direction. They are called the "new generation highways". Today they are being updated. Specially A-1, A-2 and A-4. I think the worst point is in the A-4 entering Andalucia but a big civil works is updating it:



Just to compare. This is most of route there. Left Andalucia, Right Castilla La Mancha. You can see the carriage of "A-4 Sur" and "A-4 Norte" and, more or less, calculate the curve radio (limited to 50 km/h)












And this is a photo of actual motorway and new motorway on works in that part (watched direction north-south)













In the rest of A-4 there are most of punctual updates, as well as A-1 and A-2. But the greatest is this one


----------



## alserrod

For anyone who is going to drive this summer at Spain, the Traffic authority has prepared this document of "alternative routes".
In all of cases the alternative has more kilometres, is normal road (not motorway) or... both, but instead, you will avoid zones on works as well as the most congested areas while summer.

http://www.dgt.es/was6/portal/conte...eras/recomendaciones/Itinerarios_20110701.pdf

Document is only in Spanish but maps need no translation.

Spanish forers have found at least two little mistakes. Should anyone need help, just ask for it.


----------



## alserrod

alserrod said:


>



Last news about the A-4 Madrid-Cadiz

In september-october, the lanes direction south will be opened to traffic as well as part (the one that replaces the worst part of actual one) of the lanes direction north.


----------



## Positronn

And the old A4 road stretch ? What will they do with it?


----------



## alserrod

Just for service use only. For example, if some crash on the main motorway, you will be able to continue by the old one.


----------



## alserrod

Positronn said:


> And the old A4 road stretch ? What will they do with it?



As an example, the Viella tunnel is under the Pyrenees. It is the only part of Spain in the "north of Pyrenees" (most of the border is on mountains passes). It is part of a valley in the north part that it is still in Spain for about 30 km.

There was a very narrow tunnel built in the 40s. More than 5 km of tunnel that was pointed as... the most dangerous tunnel in Europe.

It was so narrow that it was dangerous to cross driving with a tunnel.

Since some years there is a parallel tunnel.

The old tunnel is used for emergency (corridors connects both tunnels) and it is going to be prepared to be used for dangerous trucks. This is... in the new tunnel only cars and normal trucks. If a truck with dangerous merchandises will want to cross the tunnel it will have to do it on the old one.

In this picture they appear both tunnel. Left one is the new one. Two lanes direction south (upper direction) and one lane direction north (downer direction).
Right one is the old one. It appears as closed both narrow lanes.

Do not try to translate the signal written because it is not in Spanish but in Catalan. It says that trucks with dangerous merchandises are forbidden 22h to 6h.


----------



## CNGL

Yesterday I went through this exit: http://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll=41.144681,1.320248&spn=0,0.019076&z=16&layer=c&cbll=41.144725,1.320126&panoid=Vt3f2F_eNm2TdDn1wxGJtA&cbp=12,296.82,,1,-5.67

It's the highest exit number not only in Spain, but in all Europe. I saw some photos with Chinese exit numbers that were even higher.


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## alserrod

The reason of that number of exits is because in some motorways with more exits that usually or where they have used part of the old road, they use the number of the km where they are, instead of the number of exit. 
This is... they are more many exits than in other motorways. They write the kilometre. Maybe you have one in km.1, km3, km5 and km8... and they wrote exits as 1, 3, 5 and 8. So the, 2, 4, 6, 7... do not exists as exits.

This highway (only partially highway, there are parts as normal road but keeps the same number of kilometres) starts at Cadiz and takes all south Atlantic, and all the Mediterranean, from the south until Barcelona.
So then... you arrive Barcelona and in the last exit you will see this number...


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## alserrod

About "world records"

AP-2 between Zaragoza and Mediterranean has, sometimes exits very closed but between exit number 3 (Bujalaroz) and exit number 4 (Fraga) there are 46 km with no exits!!!!

Is it the longest distance on a motorway without an exit?


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## ChrisZwolle

The Autopista Durango - Torreón in Mexico has no exits for 60 kilometers. The Autopista Córdoba - Minatitlán has no exits for 80 kilometers. Autopistas with no exits up to 50 km are not uncommon in Mexico.


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## alserrod

First of all, sorry by mistake. I read about that in a car's magazine... but it is sure I toke a mistake: it is not the longest in the world but only in Europe.


One additional thing about this "distance". I was not sure and as they are updating asphalt and traffic signals usually I have taken a time to see how it is now in google earth (when you make a regular trip, you know the exit and you go directly there looking less information signals that maybe you know by head)

Some years ago they used to point as this:

- Somewhere in the area as touristic interest... or if it is away but that's the direction, the number of km. Usually some km before the exit
- Distance to some towns and villages near the exit some km before the exit
- Signal on 1 km exit and... signal about the distance of next exit
- Signal of 500m exit
- Signal of inmediately exit.


Today something have changed:

- Tourist information (maybe 3 km before exit) is kept.
- 2 km before they indicate main town or villages you can go from that exit. Nothing about distances.
- Exit is indicated 1km, 500m and inmediately but... they do not say distance to the next one.


It could be not important but if next one is 46 km away and there is no way to take back before... maybe it should be pointed!!!!


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## ChrisZwolle

alserrod said:


> First of all, sorry by mistake. I read about that in a car's magazine... but it is sure I toke a mistake: it is not the longest in the world but only in Europe.


Unfortunately, we in the western world consider the "world" to be Europe / U.S. / Canada and maybe some Asia. hno: I come across such mistakes quite often.


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## CNGL

And then you don't remember that Australia doesn't have international borders :tongue:.


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## alserrod

A 7,1 km motorway has been opened in the centre-south of Spain.

It is part of a motorway in the south of Madrid that connects Cuenca-A3 (motorway Madrid-Valencia)-A4 (motorway to Sevilla)-Toledo-A5 (motorway to Badajoz-Lisboa)

Official ministry note:
http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG..._DE_PRENSA/NOTICIAS1/2011/JULIO/110728-02.htm


When finished, it will be the fastest way Lisboa-Valencia and will avoid crossing Madrid.

The part opened this week is closed the A4 (motorway to Sevilla)


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## ChrisZwolle

Apparently they also reconfigured the A-7 east of Málaga to 2x3 lanes:


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## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> Apparently they also reconfigured the A-7 east of Málaga to 2x3 lanes:


East of Malaga has been 2x3 for quite some time. It was there 3 years ago as far as I can remember...

Might be wrong though...


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ A-7 was 2x3 until exit 243, on the east side of Málaga. Apparently it's now 2x3 until exit 246B.


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## OriK

alserrod said:


> A 7,1 km motorway has been opened in the centre-south of Spain.
> 
> It is part of a motorway in the south of Madrid that connects Cuenca-A3 (motorway Madrid-Valencia)-A4 (motorway to Sevilla)-Toledo-A5 (motorway to Badajoz-Lisboa)
> [...]
> When finished, it will be the fastest way Lisboa-Valencia and will avoid crossing Madrid.
> 
> The part opened this week is closed the A4 (motorway to Sevilla)


That motorway is called "Autovía de Castilla-La Mancha" (although it's an Autopista, not an Autovía :nuts or A-40... it was planned a lot of years ago and some streches have been opened for years and its final path will be Ávila-Toledo-Cuenca-Teruel.

In its way through Toledo it is also the north stretch of its ringroad.

But I seriously doubt that this will become someday into the fastest way Lisboa-Valencia, it probably will be the A-43 or "Autovía Extremadura-Comunidad Valenciana" (the east part is already open, I used it last week as an alternative route for Murcia-Madrid, the west part is projected): http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autovía_Extremadura_-_Comunidad_Valenciana

_______________________________________________________________

I've found a funny old video of the public TV telling people what is a motorway, why it's better than a conventional road and teaching them how to use acceleration lanes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdHireMxDWc


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## alserrod

OriK said:


> That motorway is called "Autovía de Castilla-La Mancha" (although it's an Autopista, not an Autovía :nuts or A-40... it was planned a lot of years ago and some streches have been opened for years and its final path will be Ávila-Toledo-Cuenca-Teruel.
> 
> In its way through Toledo it is also the north stretch of its ringroad.
> 
> But I seriously doubt that this will become someday into the fastest way Lisboa-Valencia, it probably will be the A-43 or "Autovía Extremadura-Comunidad Valenciana" (the east part is already open, I used it last week as an alternative route for Murcia-Madrid, the west part is projected): http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autovía_Extremadura_-_Comunidad_Valenciana
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> 
> I've found a funny old video of the public TV telling people what is a motorway, why it's better than a conventional road and teaching them how to use acceleration lanes:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdHireMxDWc




I was living for two years where cross A43/A-4. Parts are already opened but other parts are very slow... so this way will be, for some years the best way, even if not all motorway.


Another detail... the official page talks about Avila-Toledo-Cuenca-Teruel. It is absolutely stopped finishing at Teruel and that could have a... a different thread... The environmental report was finished but stopped for some months. They just said the proposed way was not allowed, but not alternative till now.


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## alserrod

About "autopista" and "autovía".

In most of cases it is possible you will find them confused in the own route...

First motorways built in Spain where toll ones and called "autopista".

In the early 90s there were many roads where they used it as a lane of a highway and built the second one... having two separated ways with two lanes each one.
But there was no alternative way. So then ALL one who wanted to use that route had to go there (even pedestrian, bikes, little motorcycles, country vehicles...).

After some years, there are some alternative ways for those cases in most but not all motorways.


In general:

motorway: at least two lanes per direction, general limit speed 120 km/h and not allowed little vehicles (country vehicles, bikes, motorcycles, etc...) and they will always have an alternative way

highway: similar but without an alternative way.

Should it be forbidden for those vehicles, it is indicated in the entrance.

Normally, 99% of toll routes are motorways (there is a single one lane tunnel with toll, for exaple).
Public ones... there are all kind of routes. New one have alternative ways (so then, motorways). Old ones maybe not (so then highways).

And do not take care of indications about names on the road... because most of them are obsolete (if they say "Autopista" sure it has an alternative, but if it says "Autovia" it is possible there is an alternative and signal not updated).


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## treichard

Alserrod, forgive me for nitpicking here. A year or so ago, I was trying to figure out the difference between autopistas and autovias in this very thread from another Spanish author's post, and your use of "highway" would have confused me then. 

I think you're trying to translate "autovia" as "highway," but "expressway" is a better choice. Even better would be "autopista" = "toll motorway," and "autovia" = "toll-free motorway" or "toll-free expressway" depending on the standard at which it was built.

But it may be best to simply stick to the two Spanish words, since their definitions in your context are specific to Spain. You mention the criterion of whether an autopista or autovia has an alternative route as part of the definitions, but that criterion is usually irrelevant for "motorway" and "expressway" in English. On the other hand, when you said, "if they say 'Autopista' sure it has an alternative, but if it says 'Autovia' it is possible there is an alternative and signal not updated," you were clear.

"Highway" is a much less specific word that refers to any main or direct road for non-local traffic. Highways take you to the next town, city, autonomous community, or country (as opposed to local roads like streets). AP-7, A-4, N-400, and even two-lane, undivided CM-322 are all highways, but of course only A-4 is an autovia.


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## Attus

For me this discuss about road categories ss stranage since Pista is a nickname for a very common Hungarian name István (=Stephen)


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## ChrisZwolle

Many Europeans think "highway" means "motorway" and nothing else. As in "an Autopista is a highway, but a carretera nacional is a road".


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## CNGL

treichard said:


> Alserrod, forgive me for nitpicking here. A year or so ago, I was trying to figure out the difference between autopistas and autovias in this very thread from another Spanish author's post, and your use of "highway" would have confused me then.
> 
> I think you're trying to translate "autovia" as "highway," but "expressway" is a better choice. Even better would be "autopista" = "toll motorway," and "autovia" = "toll-free motorway" or "toll-free expressway" depending on the standard at which it was built.
> 
> But it may be best to simply stick to the two Spanish words, since their definitions in your context are specific to Spain. You mention the criterion of whether an autopista or autovia has an alternative route as part of the definitions, but that criterion is usually irrelevant for "motorway" and "expressway" in English. On the other hand, when you said, "if they say 'Autopista' sure it has an alternative, but if it says 'Autovia' it is possible there is an alternative and signal not updated," you were clear.
> 
> "Highway" is a much less specific word that refers to any main or direct road for non-local traffic. Highways take you to the next town, city, autonomous community, or country (as opposed to local roads like streets). AP-7, A-4, N-400, and even two-lane, undivided CM-322 are all highways, but of course only A-4 is an autovia.


I translate both autopista and autovía as motorway, as there are no differences between an autopista and an autovía nowadays. As you said, highway means any kind of paved road, for me too.


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## alserrod

Let me post an example


Z40 is the orbital motorway at Zaragoza:












This is a pic about that motorway: Two lanes in each direction with a 3,5m wide. Road shoulders of about 2m in the right and 0,5-1m in the left, in both directions











In one of the entrances it is clearly indicated that no pedestrians, bikes or little vehicles are allowed in the motorway













But in the same entrance... just 100m ahead it is indicated the signal of "autovia"!!!!!!











And it is a motorway opened in 2008!!!!!!!

But... otherwise, in all official ministry notes, they talk always about "autopista Z40".


I have tried to find the "legal" differences between one and the other names... and found nothing relevant.

So then:

- It is clear that even inside Spain with new roads there is a confusion on names

- For any conversation in English I will recommend to use always the name of "motorways". Some of them can be free, some of them can be toll ones... but as you can see, Z40 is free and will have no differences with toll ones (there are specific laws, but that can have a different conversation)



For general information: All motorways are indicated in blue signals with white letters.

Toll motorways will be indicated as following:

Always a signal of toll before entering it. The signal is as this one (can change, but not too much):












Anyway, as in general, toll motorways will be named as:

- AP-XX (instead of A-XX). Anywhere... should you are going to make a trip... think that paying is not always cheaper... For example, take a look to AP-7 and A-7 near Cambrils in the coast... look traffic, type of road and... which one is absolute free and which is toll one.

- R-X in motorways near Madrid

- AG-XX in Galicia (regional toll motorways) or C-XX in Catalonia (same case but here there is no distinction except the signal of toll).



And... there are part of toll motorways that are free ways in some cases... The motorway is the same...
Or the AP-36 (second way Madrid-Alicante). It is toll motorway until the cross with the A-43 and later it is free but kept by the same company for some kilometres more until near Albacete. It was one of the conditions for construction.




And for finishing...
- As I said, I recommend to use "motorway" in any English conversation.

- Should anyone is going to make a long trip think that a toll motorway can be the fastest way or... cannot!!!!!!


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## alserrod

About "express ways", there was someones but the name and consideration still do not exist.

They were called "via rapida", and signals were in green. In most of cases they were thouth as the first carriageway for a motorway. This is... they build now a carriageway with one lane in each direction but specifications of motorway and later... the second carriage way... and finishing the "express way" and starting the "motorway".

But I think less thank ten cases existed in Spain before the name was cancelled (now they are considered as normal roads or motorways).

I remember that, when I had my driving licence exam I asked several questions to teacher about those signals and he said me... do not worry, they have never asked anything about it and up to today... no express way exists in Spain (first one was under construction), only they exists in laws.


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## treichard

Here are legal definitions for the Spanish road types:

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM.Busc...463C-BB2A-65C3A1AA4423/69706/0120100_1988.pdf



> Artículo 2.
> 1. Se consideran carreteras las vías de dominio y uso público proyectadas y construidas fundamentalmente para la circulación de vehículos automóviles.
> 2. Por sus características, las carreteras se clasifican en autopistas, autovías, vías rápidas y carreteras convencionales.
> 3. Son *autopistas *las carreteras que están especialmente proyectadas, construidas y señalizadas como tales para la exclusiva circulación de automóviles y reúnen las siguientes características:
> a)
> No tener acceso a las mismas las propiedades colindantes.
> b)
> No cruzar a nivel ninguna otra senda, vía, línea de ferrocarril o tranvía ni ser cruzada a nivel por senda, vía de comunicación o servidumbre de paso alguna.
> c)
> Constar de distintas calzadas para cada sentido de circulación, separadas entre sí, salvo en puntos singulares o con carácter temporal, por una franja de terreno no destinada a la circulación o, en casos excepcionales, por otros medios.
> 4. Son *autovías* las carreteras que, no reuniendo todos los requisitos de las autopistas, tienen calzadas separadas para cada sentido de la circulación y limitación de accesos a las propiedades colindantes.
> 5. Son *vías rápidas* las carreteras de una sola calzada y con limitación total de accesos a las propiedades colindantes.
> 6. Reglamentariamente se establecerán las limitaciones a la circulación en las carreteras de los diferentes tipos de vehículos.
> 7. Son *carreteras convencionales* las que no reúnen las características propias de las autopistas, autovías y vías rápidas.
> 8. Son áreas de servicio las zonas colindantes con las carreteras, diseñadas expresamente para albergar instalaciones y servicios destinados a la cobertura de las necesidades de la circulación, pudiendo incluir estaciones de suministro de carburantes, hoteles, restaurantes, talleres de reparación y otros servicios análogos destinados a facilitar la seguridad y comodidad de los usuarios de la carretera.


Article 2 gives the legal definitions of autopista, autovia, via rapida, and carretera convencional. (If I were to paste a Google-translated version, the translation would misuse words like "highway.")

I too heard somewhere (probably upthread) that the via rapida class was merged with the carreteras convencionales after that document was created. Nonetheless there are VRG routes in Galicia that are single carriageway "super-2 expressways." I presume that VRG means via rapida gallega. 

But note that a via rapida as defined above is only one kind of expressway that Spain has. Even though "via rapida" and "expressway" look like a direct translation of each other, "expressway" in English is a broader highway class and can mean either "via rapida" ("super-2 expressway") or "autovia," especially an autovia that is of lower standard than a modern autovia or autopista ("motorway/freeway").


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## alserrod

It is an article of the "Road's law". I will try to have a look to actual one as well as the 1988 law is out of date.

They talk about autopista, autovia, via rapida and carretera.
As I said in my last message... "via rapida" does not exist further more and it is obsolete. Signals where in green but there are no more ones.

In the photos of my last post I pointed a motorway with no access to anywhere besides, no crossing any other path, road, etc (since exit to exit, no posissibility of crossing) and has two different carriageways for both directions... In all documents appears as a "autopista" but the signal before entering it is for and "autovia".

Making a quick translation, the road's law in this article requires the following difference between and autopista and autovia:

- No access to anywhere besides the carriageway.

This is, for instance... if some houses, restaurant, etc... where closed to an old road, it was updated, made second carriageway and... that is an "autovia", as well as there will have at least a specific exit for a specific point.

Years passes and some of these point became the most dangerous... so the cross and access there where updated. Most of times, enought to stop talking of autovia and become to talk of autopista.

But... as you can see, a new road opened in 2008 and wrote in all official papers as autopista is set as autovia in the signal before entering it.


I promise to try to have a look to current law. I do not know if I will find anything new... but in anycase I keep my recomendations: use the word "motorway" in any English conversation, as well as you can see that the own Spanish administration is not able to distingish correctly one term to the another.


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## x-type

alserrod said:


> "via rapida" does not exist further more and it is obsolete. .


you mean they don't officialy exist in law? because in reality they exist. for instance C63 Vidreres - Lloret de Mar. there should also be speed limit 100 km/h if i remember well.


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## lucaf1

alserrod said:


> About "autopista" and "autovia".
> 
> I have found no legal documentation to give further information about differences,


_3. Son autopistas las carreteras que están especialmente proyectadas, construidas y señalizadas como tales para la exclusiva circulación de automóviles y reúnen las siguientes características:

No tener acceso a las mismas las propiedades colindantes.

No cruzar a nivel ninguna otra senda, vía, línea de ferrocarril o tranvía ni ser cruzada a nivel por senda, vía de comunicación o servidumbre de paso alguna.

Constar de distintas calzadas para cada sentido de circulación, separadas entre sí, salvo en puntos singulares o con carácter te_mporal, por una franja de terreno no destinada a la circulación o, en casos excepcionales, por otros medios.

4. Son autovías las carreteras que, no reuniendo todos los requisitos de las autopistas, tienen calzadas separadas para cada sentido de la circulación y limitación de accesos a las propiedades colindantes.


http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Admin/l25-1988.html


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## alserrod

I know that law... but as you can see, I found and posted one motorway opened just three years ago and with an "autovia" signal instead of Autopista...


This was why I wanted to increase information about differences that have had those type of roads.


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## amagaldu

alserrod said:


> I know that law... but as you can see, I found and posted one motorway opened just three years ago and with an "autovia" signal instead of Autopista...
> 
> 
> This was why I wanted to increase information about differences that have had those type of roads.



the difference is that an autovia may fit all the premises and an autopista must..


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## CNGL

The reconstruction of E90 motorway between Calatayud and Alfajarin will be ready in september. This is only an example of what they have done:









And here is the new where is the image: http://www.heraldo.es/noticias/aragon/la_reforma_autovia_madrid_estara_fin_acabada_entre_zaragoza_calatayud_mes.html (In Spanish).

Works continue on parts of E05, E90 and A-31. They haven't begun yet on E901 and most of A-31 and E05.


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## spacetweek

ChrisZwolle said:


> A new section of A-334 in Andalucía (Almería province) opened today. Approximately 14 kilometers between Albox and Zurgena. The section west to Fines already opened in 2009.
> 
> http://www.canalsur.es/portal_rtva/...io_un_nuevo_tramo_de_la_autovia_del_almanzora


If you look closely, you can see that autovias such as this are low quality. For example, here you can see that there is no alternative non-motorway route. Therefore this cannot truly be a motorway since it violates the principal that there must be a route for non-motorway traffic to take.
I know we have argued over and over about whether Autovias are real motorways, but clearly some of them are not. The mileage of motorways in Spain (14,600km) hides the fact that many of them are just good dual carriageways.


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## Cicerón

What do you exactly mean with alternative non-motorway route? These paths next to the fences on both sides is what we call "caminos de servicio", they are used by tractors, mopeds, bicycles, etc.

Or do you mean a proper well-paved road?


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## ilyan

How many motorways/stretches u/c in Spain? In 2008 year Spain was in first position in Europe by u/c motorways but now Poland in first position.


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## ChrisZwolle

I guess the E20 in Denmark is not a motorway either at its 20 kilometer route across the Great Belt Bridge. No alternate route available... I've never heard this is a requirement to be considered a motorway. A motorway is usually defined as a road with at least 2 lanes in each direction, separated by a median or barrier, including a mostly continuous shoulder and be completely grade-separated and a ban on slow traffic. All Spanish Autovías are conform this standard, only a few older ones have a substandard alignment, yet this doesn't mean it's not a motorway.


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## Road_UK

Not always. In Norway and Switzerland there are roads considered motorways, even though it has one lane in each direction.


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## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Not always. In Norway and Switzerland there are roads considered motorways, even though it has one lane in each direction.


In Italian the Swiss ones are called "semi-autostrada", meaning "half-motorway".


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## ChrisZwolle

You mean like A8 and A13? As far as I know they are expressways, but do have the same road numbers.


IMG_5669 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## Road_UK

Yes, I did mean the A13, and also the one at Schaffhausen, which is being upgraded now. Perhaps it's finished, I don't know, haven't been there for a while. 

On a general road map, they are also displayed as motorways.


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## ChrisZwolle

Road_UK said:


> On a general road map, they are also displayed as motorways.


Mapmakers tend to have problems with motorway-like roads. Sometimes they're shown as motorways, sometimes as expressways or even regular roads. Most maps of Spain had trouble with Autovías, some were shown as motorways, others as regular dual carriageways, it seemed randomly. Austria also has many expressways which are just as good as motorways. I'm not really a fan of all these large expressway sub-networks. They should be motorways.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Mapmakers tend to have problems with motorway-like roads. Sometimes they're shown as motorways, sometimes as expressways or even regular roads. Most maps of Spain had trouble with Autovías, some were shown as motorways, others as regular dual carriageways, it seemed randomly. Austria also has many expressways which are just as good as motorways. I'm not really a fan of all these large expressway sub-networks. They should be motorways.


And I quote you sir.


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## Road_UK

^^
Me too.
A1 for example between Burgos and Madrid is not displayed as a motorway. Technically it's an Autovia - or Dual Carriageway, but it has all the features of a motorway. And for such an important road, it should be a motorway!


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> In Italian the Swiss ones are called "semi-autostrada", meaning "half-motorway".


It is an informing term. Better than the confusion about the "strada a scorrimento veloce" in Italy.

=================

I have a question:

When could we expect to have a7 completed all the way from Malaga to Almería?


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## Cicerón

ilyan said:


> How many motorways/stretches u/c in Spain? In 2008 year Spain was in first position in Europe by u/c motorways but now Poland in first position.


That's a difficult question, considering that there are many "little governments" in Spain that build motorways on their own.

Anyway, I'd try with the regions I know the most:

-La Rioja:

Junction A-12/LO-20/N-232/AP-68 east of Logroño, including a bridge over the Ebro river.
A-12 Logroño-Burgos, from the village of Hormilla to the village of Grañón.

The works on the A-12 Logroño-Burgos were first stopped, then slowly resumed... so slowly that the grass has grown on the flattened soil (don't know the precise word in English) that was prepared to receive the asphalt. The only works I saw were the construction of some concrete (over/under)passes.


-Navarre:

A-21 to the Yesa reservoir.

-Basque Country:

The Supersur in Bilbao (new AP-8). Part of it is finished, but they are performing some tests before the opening.
The AP-8 is being widened to 2x3. From Bilbao to the toll barrier in Iurreta (near Durango) it is already 2x3. From Iurreta to Gerediaga (3,5 km) it's U/C. From the French border to the AP-1 in Maltzaga (near Éibar), it is also being widened. I think the stretch from San Sebastián to Orio is already finished.

-Cantabria:

S-30, new Santander bypass. Part of it is already opened.
A-8 Solares-Torrelavega
A-67 from Santander to Torrelavega is progressively being transformed into 2x3. Some stretches are already finished

-Burgos province:

BU-30, Burgos bypass, northern stretch
A-73 from BU-30 to the village of Quintanaortuño.
The whole A-1 is being updated to modern motorway standards.
A-11 from Aranda de Duero to the East

-Soria province:

A-15, the parts missing from Soria to the A-2
A-11
A-2, also being refurbished to modern standards






Suburbanist said:


> I have a question:
> 
> When could we expect to have a7 completed all the way from Malaga to Almería?


Uhm... 2016?

According to the Spanish Wikipedia, the works on the stretch from Carchuna to Castell de Ferro were stopped and will be resumed in 2014, while the contract for the stretch from the A-44 to Puntalón was cancelled and they are looking for a new company to finish the works. Google maps shows both stretches as finished though :nuts:

The situation could change -to worse or to better- after the next elections in November. But I've heard that, if there's no money enough, only the projects whose works have not started yet will be stopped. In that case, the works on these two stretches will be resumed sooner.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> It is an informing term. Better than the confusion about the "strada a scorrimento veloce" in Italy.


Which, by the way, is by no means an official term, while "semi-autostrada" is.


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## alserrod

I extend information in red and later post someones more.




Cicerón said:


> That's a difficult question, considering that there are many "little governments" in Spain that build motorways on their own.
> 
> Anyway, I'd try with the regions I know the most:
> 
> -La Rioja:
> 
> Junction A-12/LO-20/N-232/AP-68 east of Logroño, including a bridge over the Ebro river.
> A-12 Logroño-Burgos, from the village of Hormilla to the village of Grañón.
> 
> The works on the A-12 Logroño-Burgos were first stopped, then slowly resumed... so slowly that the grass has grown on the flattened soil (don't know the precise word in English) that was prepared to receive the asphalt. The only works I saw were the construction of some concrete (over/under)passes.
> 
> 
> -Navarre:
> 
> A-21 to the Yesa reservoir.
> A-21 Pamplona-Jaca. Until Yesa reservoir (built by Navarra government) will be finished this year. In the Aragonese part there are two or three parts on works today
> 
> 
> 
> -Basque Country:
> 
> The Supersur in Bilbao (new AP-8). Part of it is finished, but they are performing some tests before the opening.
> The AP-8 is being widened to 2x3. From Bilbao to the toll barrier in Iurreta (near Durango) it is already 2x3. From Iurreta to Gerediaga (3,5 km) it's U/C. From the French border to the AP-1 in Maltzaga (near Éibar), it is also being widened. I think the stretch from San Sebastián to Orio is already finished.
> 
> -Cantabria:
> 
> S-30, new Santander bypass. Part of it is already opened.
> A-8 Solares-Torrelavega
> A-67 from Santander to Torrelavega is progressively being transformed into 2x3. Some stretches are already finished
> 
> -Burgos province:
> 
> BU-30, Burgos bypass, northern stretch
> A-73 from BU-30 to the village of Quintanaortuño.
> The whole A-1 is being updated to modern motorway standards.
> A-11 from Aranda de Duero to the East
> 
> -Soria province:
> 
> A-15, the parts missing from Soria to the A-2
> A-11
> A-2, also being refurbished to modern standards
> 
> A-2 reburbished is not only at Soria province but in all the way between Madrid and Alfajarin. Part from Calatayud to Alfajarin will be finished next month.





Aragon:

A-21 Jaca to Yesa reservoir. Two or three parts started on works

A-23 Huesca to Jac: First 11 km are opened since year 2001. The rest is almost all of them on works. In March 2011 they opened the first km to traffic.

A-22 Lerida (Catalonia) - Huesca. In 2008 only a little part at Monzon was opened. Today it is opened 75% of them and at the begining of next year all motorway except the last part (Sietamo-Huesca) will be opened.


ARA-A-1 Only six kilometres motorway but a new bridge over the Ebro river where there were 45 km without bridges.

A-2. Total refurbishement.

Z-40 Finishing of Zaragoza orbital motorway

A-68. Some parts of refurbishement (I remember last one opened in august 2010).




Catalonia:

C-15 Manresa-Villafranca del Penedes. Part on works and part opened to traffic

A-7 (all Mediterranean motorway). South of Tarragona, some parts opened as free-motorway
Near Barcelona will have the name of B-40. A little part opened and part on works.

A-14 Lerida - Sopeira (Aragon). First parts on works

A-27 Tarragona - Montblanch. On works

(they are some other ones... maybe another forumer will extend this information)

And they are not motorways but:

- Bracon tunnel. 4,5 km
- New Vielha tunnel. 6,1 km (ok.... it is not after 2008, it was opened in December 2007  )


- Comunitat Valenciana

CV-10. Built full the part this administration will make. Rest is projected as A-7 by Spanish government

- Castilla La Mancha

- Part of Ciudad Real-Valdepeñas

- Some parts of A-3-Puertollano (some of them were opened yet, today is full finished until Puertollano and will be the shorter way from Lisboa to Valencia)


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## alserrod

About A-2 refurbishment, one newspaper had some pictures this week and I wrote about one of them (one of the most "interesting") in the Spanish forum.


I copy-paste here using google translator. It is a long explanation about how that ... highway?, motorway?, was built, mistakes done and how it is being updated.

It is long and I expect google translation will be not bad. Should anything be not clear either should a translation be wrong, just advice it to edit the message




*A-2 (Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona-border with France) near La Muela
*















To give us an idea:

1987 (I think that stretch is opened in that year).
Carriageway to Zaragoza direction of new construction.
Carriageway to Madrid fully utilizes the N-II.

The N-II (later service road to dry although there have not been stopped or urinating in the gutter) had two consecutive curves that are seen in the photo (for orientation, Zaragoza right direction, upward direction Madrid) then a curve before the tunnel, which was limited to 80 km / h.

But I do not know when they put that limitation. What I do know is that people are "thrilled" to open the highway, there was no limitation other than 120 km / h and became a black spot in record time.
It was when they put the limitation and the problem they were opening new motorways in Spain (late 80's, early 90) and the people associated with "2 lanes = 120 km / h to stop milk).

Around 1993-94, with fully open highway, was renewed when the stretch. The section became old service road (I think since I've only been there during a crash and during the current refurbishment works).
The road towards Zaragoza (Very close the tunnel but outside) made it to Madrid
They built a new road with three lanes towards Zaragoza due to steep in there.

So far it was hard to find where the fudge and waste. Well, was as follows:

- The first new road was built with characteristics of "rise" (that area has a steep slope) and glued to the old road that was going down. I really would have cost very little but have done the road with the path that will bring now. We ... if they take one (sloppy on their part) could be, but they built new did not have to go so close, glued to the former but could go a little further apart. In this area the A-2 takes the side of a cliff and have the same difficulty of building the road built in 87 that they have done now.

- They took the road N-II, which is a traffic hazard incredibly foolhardy not to put a limit sign of 80. Do not get as sloppy Despeñaperros level but one or two levels below. Not much more to give you an idea.

- Discover the tinkering that have built (based on numbers of accidents) and decided to build a new road. To do decide to reverse the direction of the new and build another in the opposite direction but three lanes.
However, look in the photo why not have a little track curvature conditions. Just the distance from where the old road ends and connects with the straight where it does the new road.
Why?. Well ... to do so glued to the previous one. Was it really necessary that they be fully parallel?. As they had done things wrong, could not alienate both roads a little bit?.
Having done so 18 years ago, now we would save at least build a new road, alone should have been renewed the layout of the other.

- But now comes the fudge "covert" and actually create dangers. As I said, to fix the mess in the first driveway that used the tunnel on the N-II had to build another road reversing the direction of the first.
Well ... the road where the meaning was reversed was designed to be upstream in an area with slope. Cannot but I had made it with a stick because of the ice track that is generated in winter.

And it was this lack of cannot which was that although I had a radio able to go 120 km / h, was a downhill danger because you could go a little speed and the curve did not drink properly.

The new road (up), among which was a little (not much) cannot and above all that up so you do not notice the effect of the curve (with slope that is lifting the foot slows and you ipso facto), was used. .. but down, I really welcome ...

The road rise really could have gone for higher leveraging. I've made 120 not out there and always has been one of those stretches that I had on a dangerous cross. However, if the re-make the same could shit down again.
Possibility?. Or just a new road built but with two bridges (the directions would be reversed), or reformed road charging down the tunnel based on a wild and subsequent clearing bank ... or directly made two new roads which is what they have done.

The old N-II will continue as service road (as access to rural properties as you can see at the underpass).

The two roads built in the 80 and 90 ... with laughter, because this field can not be seized or for windmills (which are located a bit above)


----------



## timo9




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## timo9

RV73VlOE


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## alserrod

A-66, the missing part!!!!


Spanish government has put on a public concurrence the construction of motorway A-66 between Benavente and Zamora. Today it is possible to do this route even by road or having a little tour, by other motorways.

With this part of A-66, there will be a direct motorway (partially on toll) from Gijon, in the northern coast to Cadiz, in the southern coast, being a north-south motorway more or less half way from Madrid to Lisbon.

The name of this motorway is "Silver Route" (Ruta de la plata). Why this name??. There was an old Roman road called with the same name!!!! They only use the name put 20 centuries ago.


http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG..._DE_PRENSA/NOTICIAS1/2011/AGOSTO/11081904.htm


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## g.spinoza

As you probably know I'm planning my Spanish vacation, so I started looking for autovias and autopistas and it's a big huge mess. For instance, is AP-46 north of Malaga completed? Google maps says it is, but Spanish wikipedia says it will be opened on 31 October.
And why so many non tolled autovias follow the same route of tolled autopistas? Isn't that a waste of resources that could be better used, say, for a Cordoba-Talavera de la Reina link, or a Madrid-east into A-23?


----------



## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> As you probably know I'm planning my Spanish vacation, so I started looking for autovias and autopistas and it's a big huge mess. For instance, is AP-46 north of Malaga completed? Google maps says it is, but Spanish wikipedia says it will be opened on 31 October.


Yeah, it will be opened in that date. 
Here it is a news from a local newspaper link

http://www.eldiadecordoba.es/articl...rtara/viaje/malaga/y/abrira/para/octubre.html





> And why so many non tolled autovias follow the same route of tolled autopistas?


Nowadays they will build small toll-motorways. 
Reason?. They are a private business and the network is full.

Should an entreprise wants to build a new one they will choose the strecht with more potential traffic, nevertheless where it is. 
This is... maybe because mountains make difficult for a motorway and they want to invest in a new motorway, maybe because there is a lot of traffic and some cars will choose to pay toll and be able to avoid congestions (for examples, new short ones near Madrid).





> Isn't that a waste of resources that could be better used, say, for a Cordoba-Talavera de la Reina link, or a Madrid-east into A-23?


The case of linking to A-23 is a "special case". It is considered until Teruel, but built only until Cuenca.

At the begininig of 2008 an environment study decided that route proposed was not acceptable. Ministry "hide" the study for eight months (enough to pass the next general elections) and said that they had to find a new alternative.
There were too many demonstrations and they said that alternative to A-40 was the own A-40... they said they could start to built those streches with no environmental problems and the proposed a new route for the most difficult one.

Ministry said that it was a "full project" and they will not start until all was accepted from the environment point of view (first time they said that in Spain).

Four years later... nothing moved in that corner. A lot of promises but nothing else.


Should you want to have an alternative way from Barcelona/Tarragona to Madrid by the inside country, I can propose you a different route. Few motorways but no traffic and a different view!.


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## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> Nowadays they will build small toll-motorways.
> Reason?. They are a private business and the network is full.
> 
> Should an entreprise wants to build a new one they will choose the strecht with more potential traffic, nevertheless where it is.


I see but... shouldn't the State have the last word? Shouldn't they say "no, we don't need another motorway here, there's already one"?



> Should you want to have an alternative way from Barcelona/Tarragona to Madrid by the inside country, I can propose you a different route. Few motorways but no traffic and a different view!.


Thanks, but due to short time I changed some of my plans and probably will not drive in Madrid anymore, nor to Andorra. My idea for coming back now is to go from Sevilla to Valencia, sleep there, and the next day all the way Valencia-Brescia.


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## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> I see but... shouldn't the State have the last word? Shouldn't they say "no, we don't need another motorway here, there's already one"?


No because different reasons:

- First motorways were built when no ones existed Almost all of them toll ones and they took in most cases little streches were profitability was sure). 15 years later started opened the first free ones... and they became the differences. Why should I have to pay for a motorway in that direction and shouldn't in the other direction?. Since then only small cases have been built and in most of cases as an alternative to heavy traffic.

- ALL entreprises will accept a business (like a toll motorway) only profitability is assured. The network at Spain makes that all motorways with intense traffic are made and the ones that are being on works or project are more for better communications, safety on road, etc... It will be difficult to find a new motorway with characteristics able for that profitability


In my region, the Aragonese government asked for the ARA-A-1 motorway. It is "shadow toll" (driver pays nothing and regional government will pay a fix and variable cost for 30 years to the entreprise who built it and makes maintenance).
It is a only 6 km motorway but a motorway that connects both sides of a river without any other bridge in 45 km before this opening three years ago.

Drivers do not pay anything... and traffic is only half than considered... and entreprise requires a different formula for paying because with these numbers they will never recover investment (and we do not talk about profits)





> Thanks, but due to short time I changed some of my plans and probably will not drive in Madrid anymore, nor to Andorra. My idea for coming back now is to go from Sevilla to Valencia, sleep there, and the next day all the way Valencia-Brescia.


From Sevilla to Valencia go A-4 to Manzanares (I was living in that town for two years and those roads I know) and take A-43 through Valencia.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Thanks, it's the route I was planning to drive. Also a brief stop at Cordoba is planned.


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## alserrod

Anyway... should you want to have a rest, you can think in leaving your car at Barcelona and taking a train to Malaga. Journey is 5h 30 min aprox... 
Should you can use public transport... it is difficult to do faster.

At Valencia, take care if high season. You can find more traffic congestion than at Madrid.


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## alserrod

Valencia-Barcelona, I recommend you this way. You will use a lot of free motorways (and some cases with roads with no traffic). 
As you will see, there are parts where I recommend to use AP-7 (interesting to pay toll because no fast alternative) and parts where I recommend to use a different way (there are alternatives and toll can be saves)


http://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=pa...a=dpe&mrsp=5&sz=12&via=1,2,3,4,5&vpsrc=6&z=12


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## g.spinoza

^^ Thanks, maybe I will use the tolled road one way and the free alternative you suggested the way back


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## CNGL

alserrod said:


> *A-2 (Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona-border with France) near La Muela
> *


I put the same photo earlier on the same page!

I have clinched new sections on last days. I have photos of A-15 between Andoain and Irurzun, the so-called Leizarán motorway. And I've found a 2+1 road, I though there was no 2+1 roads in Spain but N-121-A is!

And yesterday riding my bike I made a detour only to see the new signage they are putting on E07. They have to replace signs every 10 years or so, but I believe some signs where there for almost 20 years!


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## OriK

Some toll motorways are there just to people who wants to avoid traffic jams... and others follow more secure routes (less curves i.e.).


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## alserrod

Almost all built after year 2.000


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## g.spinoza

^^ alserrod you told me earlier that many tolled motorways are being built near the non tolled ones because enterprises choose routes with maximum possible financial gain.

But am I correct saying that the non-tolled A-7 is being built alongside the already existent Ap-7? In this case it's the other way around.


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## alserrod

Yes... and not only in the A-7 but there are not too many cases.

The reason is that all citizens ask for free motorways for all... easy to understand (why he doesn't pay for this traject and I have to pay for this one because no alternative?).

There was a bad plan for motorways (starting with all toll ones, continuing with roads updated to motorways, building better free motorways and later both motorways in specific zones and new motorways to complete the network... that is a resume of the Motorway construction History...).

For the cases of no alternative there are two options. Build a free one (used if heavy traffic) and everyone will choose or "buy" the motorway to the entreprise.

The second option seems to be the most simple... but only used in little parts (seems to be political reasons and negotiations).


A-7 is one case, but on A-68 the Navarra government made 40 km of motorway in his territory.

i.e. At Valencia, enterprisers made a dossier about bussiness relations and in fact there are some many to Madrid than to Barcelona... and distance to Madrid is a bit longer.

But... Motorway to Madrid is free and to Barcelona isn't (you can try with the alternative I posted). And to Madrid there is high speed train (1h40m) and to Barcelona there isn't (3h being less distance)


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## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> My idea for coming back now is to go from Sevilla to Valencia, sleep there, and the next day all the way Valencia-Brescia.


You're on holiday, right? Then why not drive from Valencia to Barcelona, do some sightseeing there, and then take the ferry from Barcelona to Genova, and then drive home. Valencia to Brescia in one day is a challenge, even for my standards...
I don't know how much the ferry costs, but taking Spanish, French and Italian tolls plus fuel into account, it may be worth it. 

Although I did do Magedeburg to Valencia in one day and night twice...


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## g.spinoza

Yes I'm on holiday. Barcelona-Genova by ferry can be an option, in fact nothing is still decided yet. I don't like ferries though, I took one from Civitavecchia to Cagliari, it took 10 hours during which I was so boooored.

The original idea is to travel back to Brescia not through south France but taking A7 at Avignon and then driving towards Grenoble-Frejus-Torino-Milano-Brescia. I never drove any of those road, it's just slightly longer than the Provençale (30km or so) and I have the chance to see some beautiful mountains.

But it depends on how I feel after the _first_ Brescia-Valencia trip


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## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> Yes I'm on holiday. Barcelona-Genova by ferry can be an option, in fact nothing is still decided yet. I don't like ferries though, I took one from Civitavecchia to Cagliari, it took 10 hours during which I was so boooored.
> 
> The original idea is to travel back to Brescia not through south France but taking A7 at Avignon and then driving towards Grenoble-Frejus-Torino-Milano-Brescia. I never drove any of those road, it's just slightly longer than the Provençale (30km or so) and I have the chance to see some beautiful mountains.
> 
> But it depends on how I feel after the _first_ Brescia-Valencia trip


As long as you're aware that there are more tolls to pay in France going that route, and for the Frejus Tunnel alone you pay more then 40 euros. There might be an overnight ferry - in which case you can get your own cabin. Get a couple of beers or wines behind you, and go to sleep. And you even had a good day in Barcelona, or on one of the beaches surrounding Barcelona.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Yes I know about the tolls. But I guess the ferry will take forever, way longer than the car, to get to Genova...

EDIT: Just looked at the prices: 350€ Barcelona-Genoa, 18h trip. No f*king way


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## alv4

Amazing pic


----------



## Aokromes

"Supersur" South metropolitan variant of Bilbao goes to be open this Saturday almost 18Km road with a cost of 900 millon of Euro.

http://www.elcorreo.com/vizcaya/20110906/local/supersur-inaugurara-septiembre-201109061205.html


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## Boltzman

Mateusz said:


> Any updates regarding M-61 north of Madrid ?


Nothing but a line in some maps.

National elections are held shortly, may be after elections the same party will rule both national and regional governments, so things will go smoothly.

Unfortunately M-61 is polluted by politics from the very beginning.


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## CNGL

The Supersur bypass (E70) in Bilbao is now open. For the first few days it is free, but from next Tuesday* will be tolled. I would pay the euro (exactly €1.08 for cars) for the Supersur to avoid the Bilbao traffic if any day I go there.

*Tuesday the 13th, bad luck day here, like Friday the 13th in the US.


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## snowland

Wow, amazing infrastructure. I remember to see a thread of the argentinean motorways where someone posted an image from Spain. It was clearly not Argentinean cause it was way better, more modern, beautiful, organized and safe. Congratulations... When I went to Madrid and Barcelona, we rode a little the freeways. They're very impressive.


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## ChrisZwolle

Are there any numbering changes concerning the Bilbao Supersur? Will the new alignment be renumbered to AP-8 and the old one remains A-8?


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## CNGL

Yes, and the E70 gets onto the new route.


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## alserrod

About the name of "autopista" and "autovía"... a very interesting post in the Spanish forum.
It is in Spanish and I make a summary:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=83670166&postcount=2805


With the first motorways they could decide to make as at Italy or France (all toll ones except beside biggest cities) or as at Germany (all free ones).

They made most of them tolled (some of the first ones were free).

Later, in the begining of the 90s they opened a huge "motorway" network, where some old roads were updated to a dual carriageway.

It had the limit of 120 km/h as well as in a motorway, and at least two lanes per direction.

But there were some differences, mainly access to them and exits, as well as curves, lanes, etc...


Once built the problem came about "who to pay the maintenance?".

With the Schengen treaty just "opened", Germany requested about incomings because using free motorways by any vehicle (specially trucks because maintenance). As well as no stops are in the border, imposible to put a tax for anyone entering the country with a vehicle.

It is considered the problem and European Union will pay for the toll-free motorways lanes (E-XX).

How to adapt it at Spain?. Easy... all N-XX dual carriageway became to A-XX (and toll ones A-XX to AP-XX). White signals changed to blue signals and they prepared a full project of updating all "old highways".

New motorways made at Spain have no differences if tolled or free-toll but old ones have.

The first part of the refurbishment project is going to finish. Budget was really important.



So then... the name of "autovia" should be considered as obsolete.

Should anyone have any question, he can post here or even in the Spanish Forum (do not be worried if writting in English).


----------



## CasaMor

by CasaMor

*A-7 Fuengirola*










*A-7 Malaga*


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## Cicerón

A short video I've just found, the new AP-8 (Supersur) in Bilbao.


----------



## CARABAZA

Towards Bilbao
8:15 am
April 2011
Pics were taken from a bus, so quality is not as good as I'd like


A-8




















Main way is the new AP-8 (VSM)




















Towards Trapagarán bridge















































Impressive structure











Traffic jam... 




















Barakaldo


----------



## CARABAZA

Getting into Bilbao municipality





























Basurto Bilbao new access’ works





























We could appreciate Iberdrola tower















































Sabino Arana Bilbao entrance will be dismantled next year.






































BILBAO


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## Cicerón

Cicerón said:


> A short video I've just found, the new AP-8 (Supersur) in Bilbao.
> 
> P-UmtCDWpiE


A better one:



AdemA said:


> *Variante Sur Metropolitana de Bilbao: Inaugurada la primera fase de la Supersur​*
> _Publicado el 14 septiembre, 2011 por Bilbao en Construcción!_
> 
> El pasado fin de semana se inauguró la primera fase de la Variante Sur Metropolitana de Bilbao, la autovía conocida popularmente como “Supersur”.
> 
> Os muestro un vídeo que he hecho sobre el tramo inaugurado en su primer fin de semana de servicio:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Artículo completo*


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## slickman

Finaly they connected the AP8 and AP68 southbound? :bow:

Passed there several times befor the A1 (Extegerate??) was concluded and the smell was realy bad.


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## CNGL

No, it's not that. It's a new bypass of Bilbao. They have to connect the Supersur (E70) to E804, and then they will extend Supersur to Amorebieta. In the more distant future they will build a new tunnel from current Western terminus to Muskiz.


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## g.spinoza

Just a brief hi to all of you. I'm in Valencia now, 1 day away from the end of my vacation: tomorrow I'm coming back to Brescia with some interesting pics and thoughts to share with you about Spanish roads.

See you soon!


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## Road_UK

Good to see you. I pm'd you before I saw this post. I was in your hometown a few days ago.


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## ajch

A few pics taken yesterday in the A66 (Seville-Gijon)

A66 going up to Bejar from Extremadura, in Baños de Montemayor, just near the border with Castilla y Leon.


































AP66 in Rioseco de Tapia. taken to South (Leon)










AP66 in Rioseco de Tapia. taken to North (Asturias)










AP66 Bridge Fernandez Casado. taken from highway CL623, just under the bridge.











AP66 Bridge Fernadez Casado. Info Post.


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## alserrod

A-66 makes possible to go north-south toll-free without passing by Madrid.

And it is a route "made" by Romans!!!!!


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## Cicerón

alserrod said:


> A-66 makes possible to go *north-south toll-free* without passing by Madrid.
> 
> And it is a route "made" by Romans!!!!!


Except Campomanes-León


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## alserrod

And Sevilla-Cadiz (even if it is AP-4, it is also Silver Route)


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## Cicerón

I've just discovered this :nuts:

2010 traffic (AADT) maps for the main Spanish roads (_autopistas_, _autovías_ and national roads):

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...ES/CARRETERAS/TRAFICO_VELOCIDADES/MAPAS/2010/

Accesos = Approach roads
Pesados = Heavy vehicles
Velocidades = Speeds


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## ChrisZwolle

Fantastic! I've been waiting for something like this for years


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## ChrisZwolle

Damn AP-7 near Vera carries only 1700 vehicles per day. Useless motorway. The toll-free A-7 runs parallel to it and carries a decent 30 000 vehicles per day. The busiest motorways are not part of the Fomento network. M-30 still carries some 310 000 vehicles per day.


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## CNGL

Useless motorway the AP-7 in Southern Murcia. They should not have built it. Instead, they have to build the A-2 between Montgat and French border (Or at least to Figueres), both N-II and AP-7 or C-32 have AADTs above 20 000 vehicles. But it is a bit difficult to build a new motorway on the Maresme coast (Montgat-Sant Vicenç M.-Tordera), is heavily urbanized...

And I was expecting around 15 000-20 000 vehicles per day on the E07 South of Huesca, and it is at 17 000. And the busiest road in my region, Aragon, is E90 at exit 321, at 64 113 vehicles per day.


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## treichard

I didn't expect to see A-7S on the Malaga inset of the Accesos page.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Damn AP-7 near Vera carries only 1700 vehicles per day. Useless motorway. The toll-free A-7 runs parallel to it and carries a decent 30 000 vehicles per day. The busiest motorways are not part of the Fomento network. M-30 still carries some 310 000 vehicles per day.




AP-7 (tolled motorway) is part of Ministry network. Only that it is managed by a private entreprise and you have to pay if using... but it is part of the network. 
The entreprise will manage it for several years and after those, it is suppose to be managed by the ministry (and free... but it has happened only in a few cases).


M-30 is, today, a "street". It is part of the city of Madrid (not a motorway but a street managed by the municipality). In fact it is called "Calle M-30" (instead of "Autopista M-30")


----------



## ChrisZwolle

M-30 is a motorway just like AP-2 or A-7. It has motorway signs at every entrance. However, you're right that it is indeed not managed by Fomento, but by the city of Madrid. But this doesn't make it any less of a motorway, it's just owned and operated by someone else.


----------



## Cicerón

I'm surprised to see that the LO-20 in Logroño carries more traffic than the BU-30 in Burgos, which is an international route used to go to Portugal, southern Spain and Morocco. But it's true that it's common to find traffic jams at certain hours between the junction with the A-13 and the N-111 giant roundabout.

I'd like to see another AADT map for regional roads too. I'm sure this stretch of the LR-250 carries about 20,000 vehicles/day.



alserrod said:


> AP-7 (tolled motorway) is part of Ministry network. Only that it is managed by a private entreprise and you have to pay if using... but it is part of the network.
> The entreprise will manage it for several years and after those, it is suppose to be managed by the ministry (and free... but it has happened only in a few cases).
> 
> 
> M-30 is, today, a "street". It is part of the city of Madrid (not a motorway but a street managed by the municipality). In fact it is called "Calle M-30" (instead of "Autopista M-30")


That "Calle 30" thing is simply an invention made by the municipality of Madrid for the new, buried M-30. The name "M-30" has always had bad connotations (traffic jams, pollution, barrier effect) so they wanted to show that they turned a motorway into a "street". However the official name is still M-30.

About the AP-7 Cartagena-Vera: It's indeed a useless motorway. As many others, such as the AP-41. The last year a bunch of empty tolled motorways received in total €80M in loans from the Spanish government, because they were actually losing money

Here is the news (note how the word _autovía_ is used, even though all of them are _autopista_. Both words are becoming synonym): http://www.lavanguardia.com/economi...e-fomento-a-las-concesionarias-en-crisis.html




treichard said:


> I didn't expect to see A-7S on the Malaga inset of the Accesos page.


That purple "7" indicates that the traffic has been measured only the 7% of days corresponding for a primary (non permanent) station. 7% of 42 days is 3 days. Considering it was opened in december 28th, it's exactly 3 days until the end of the year :lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

CNGL said:


> Instead, they have to build the A-2 between Montgat and French border (Or at least to Figueres),


I managed to drive the A-2 section near Girona... when I entered it it was already finished


----------



## CNGL

^^ That section that is already completed since 2008 . I travelled it in 2005 when it was N-II and construction works were in progress. As they have duplicated the road, I marked 5 km of A-2 South of Girona as clinched. Like the last kilometer of E07 as motorway before it becomes a road (I have already travelled that).

South of Caldes de Malavella, to Tordera, works were stopped because the company that was building it went to bankrupcy.



treichard said:


> I didn't expect to see A-7S on the Malaga inset of the Accesos page.


AFAIK it will be signed MA-20*, when Hiperronda is completed. E15 will run there.

_* Not to be confused with Ma-20 in Palma_


----------



## alserrod

"Calle M-30" is really a motorway and after a enourmous refurbishment, we will find no changes in the future.

But in laws there are differences if it is a "street" allowed to run faster than 50 km/h and no pedestrian allowed or a motorway.

For example entrances can be different.

In my city, it was requested to pass part of old N-II to the city instead of the ministry. It was allowed to drive only 50 km/h in that point but the difference was the complex cross for a new neighbourhoud (easieeeeer if depending of the town as a street).

For driving we can consider it is a motorway. For managing and laws it will be different.

Ops... and interesting.... fines will be made by Madrid local police, not the Guardia Civil, as well it is a street.



A very strange case, I agree...


----------



## Cicerón

The next Monday, most of the new Despeñaperros mountain pass will be open. It will be the whole northbound carriageway and half of the southbound carriageway (Venta de Cárdenas-Aldeaquemada).

Location:

Venta de Cárdenas-Aldeaquemada (both carriageways will be open):









Aldeaquemada-Santa Elena (only the northbound carriageway will be open from next Monday):










Source: http://www.ideal.es/jaen/20110922/local/jaen/nuevo-trazado-autovia-despenaperros-201109221852.html


----------



## cuartango

^^ Is it going to be a toll in that new road?


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## Cicerón

^^ Nope. It will be part of the toll-free A-4.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Are there still plans for AP-41? A toll road from Toledo to Ciudad Real and Córdoba?


----------



## alserrod

No ones... and from Ciudad Real to Cordoba will be difficult to pass an environment agreement.

At least, A-4 willbe totally refurbished!


----------



## Boltzman

alserrod said:


> No ones... and from Ciudad Real to Cordoba will be difficult to pass an environment agreement.


Environment agreement? :nuts:

It won't be built through the Sierra Morena range. It didn't pass the enviromental assessment. It will be probably replaced by a new motorway from Almadén (A-43 - to be built) to Espiel (A-81 towards Córdoba - to be built) along the N-501 national road.



> At least, A-4 willbe totally refurbished!


Wrong, very long stretches will remain pending refurbishing: A-4 at Toledo province and Despeñaperros to Seville (whole Andalusian stretch).


----------



## alserrod

Boltzman said:


> Wrong, very long stretches will remain pending refurbishing: A-4 at Toledo province and Despeñaperros to Seville (whole Andalusian stretch).


you are right. I just wanted to talk to connection to Andalusia but I talked about the whole motorway.

Furthermore... some news about that part:

"New route by Desepeñaperros will be opened on monday"

http://www.ideal.es/jaen/20110922/local/jaen/nuevo-trazado-autovia-despenaperros-201109221852.html


----------



## Cicerón

ChrisZwolle said:


> Are there still plans for AP-41? A toll road from Toledo to Ciudad Real and Córdoba?


Considering the low traffic on most of the new tolled roads, especially the AP-41 Madrid-Toledo which carries about 15% of the forecasted traffic, I doubt it will ever be built. Furthermore, nowadays no company will run the risk of building a Toledo-Ciudad Real-Córdoba motorway since the current road carries much less traffic than the A-42 Madrid-Toledo.





Boltzman said:


> It won't be built through the Sierra Morena range. It didn't pass the enviromental assessment. It will be probably replaced by a new motorway from Almadén (A-43 - to be built) to Espiel (A-81 towards Córdoba - to be built) along the N-501 national road.


Yeah, those are the plans. But I doubt it will be ever built. For the next 10 years I only expect the opening of the motorways that are currently u/c (including those whose construction was stopped), plus the refurbishment of the first-generation autovías, and maybe some urban motorways.




alserrod said:


> "New route by Desepeñaperros will be opened on monday"
> 
> http://www.ideal.es/jaen/20110922/local/jaen/nuevo-trazado-autovia-despenaperros-201109221852.html


I already posted that news (#2373)


----------



## solchante

^^pacopaco´s maps of Spanish infrastrauctures are the best :applause:

more photos of *Despeñaperros*



























































































































and a cool video


----------



## RamiroII

^^ It is an impressive work of infrastructure 



stratotroter said:


> Could anyone tell me how many kilometers of the new highways(autopistas?) are under construction in Spain right now and *how many Spain's got in general?* BTW The photos in this thread just blew my mind...Awesomeness...


According to Eurostat 2008 data:










Spain clearly has the largest motorway network in Europe, and nowadays the gap with Germany is probably greater than in 2008. However, is this good for the country? Have we overextended?

Because looking also at data for modal split of passenger and freight transport, it shows that as a result of this policy of encouraging the use of mostly toll-free motorways all over the country, Spain has a bigger than average use of road transport, and a much less than average use of rail transport (both freight and passenger). 

Our dependence upon foreign oil for moving all our trucks, cars and coaches makes our economy vulnerable to ever increasing oil prices, more so than other European nations, therefore making us less competitive. Morover, in this age of austerity and shrinking public budgets, how is the state going to support the maintenance costs of such a huge motorway network?


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## alserrod

In fact the railway company only focus on the most used axes as well as commuter trains. 

The rest of trains (some of them are good but you see frequencies, timetables...) will require a different discussion.

There are some connections where the faster, easier and most confortable place... is the train, but only some of them

P.S. Barcelona-Sevilla is about 5h30m in train, and has several intermediate stops. For example Zaragoza-Cordoba is less than 3:00 in train (four ones daily). There is plane from Barcelona to Sevilla but nothing between intermediate stations... and the speed is the same.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Spain has a very low construction cost of motorways, often averaging between € 3 and € 6 million per kilometer. This means that it is cost-effective to rebuild long-distance roads to motorways even at low traffic volumes. 

Comparisons of network lengths are a bit hard. Germany and France have many expressways that are motorway-like or just below motorway status that adds another 2.000 - 2.500 kilometer to the network of high-standard roads, bringing their total closer to 14.000 kilometers. Spain doesn't have many roads like this (below Autovía status, but still 2x2 and grade-separated).


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## treichard

With the Despeñaperros A-4 opening, will the old windy expressway there be called some like N-IVa or be given a provincial letter and number?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Probably a road number like A-395-V-C-WTF.


----------



## alserrod

That has been a question made in the Spanish Forum.

I answered it is supposed so. 
In all the refurbishements that are being made now, it is the longest part that will stay "old".

There is a second option: consider it as "A-4 shoulder" with no number.


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## ajch

treichard said:


> With the Despeñaperros A-4 opening, will the old windy expressway there be called some like N-IVa or be given a provincial letter and number?


I have read in other forum (urbanity.es) that the old autovia is going to be demolished.


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## 437.001

Demolished because it´s a natural reserve or so...


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## alserrod

Part of the old road has to be demolished to build the new one. Other part will remain and could be used... just for take a picture or for a back-up in case of closure


----------



## CNGL

treichard said:


> With the Despeñaperros A-4 opening, will the old windy expressway there be called some like N-IVa or be given a provincial letter and number?


I think one of the old carriageways will be N-IV.

BTW, this new opening doesn't affect the highway browser at all, is only a realigment, and exit 251 remains at the same point.

And when you will update the lists? I have split mine in two.


----------



## RamiroII

ChrisZwolle said:


> Spain has a very low construction cost of motorways, often averaging between € 3 and € 6 million per Km. This means that it is cost-effective to rebuild long-distance roads to motorways even at low traffic volumes.


That is true, however in Spain there are also a lot of costly mountain passes – like the new Despeñaperros which runs at about € 25 million per kilometer. Furthermore, maintenance and financial costs should also be considered in the cost-effectiveness, take for example the last stretch of the A-66 Zamora-Benavente (49 Km): it has been awarded for € 1.3 billion (!), which includes the building and the maintenance for 30 years.

For the next decades, the Spanish state will have to pay for the maintenance of a larger motorway network than Germany, with barely a third of Germany's GDP, and with lower gas taxes and almost no tolls (see for instance the new Despeñaperros: a magnificent -and expensive- autovía completely free of use, therefore making the public budget bear the full burden of its cost, for decades to come). And there are even more projected low-traffic motorways to be built...


----------



## alserrod

There is a very easy example. You go to Canary Islands and you see that local roads keep asphalt perfect even after several years. Only if heavy traffic, they will need a little refurbishment.

In the rest of Spain the maintenance is important.

Why?. 
Dilation.... At Canary Islands the roads will never get ice, will never be on lower temperatures. This makes that you put new asphalt and will remain perfect for a lot of years.

In the rest of Spain they exists too many roads with upper temperatures on summer and lower on winter, having an effect similar to the rest of Europe or sometimes greater (difference between maximal and minimal temperature).

Roads can be cheaper to built but mountains passes still keeps. It has the second average high over sea level at Europe after Switzerland and it is not flat.
And it remains to keep ok a free network


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The average altitude doesn't tell you anything about the geography. As you probably know, most of those highlands are a plateau (the Meseta) which is mostly flat or with rolling hills. A few mountain ranges stand out in central Spain, like the Guadarrama. For instance, AP-36 runs at mostly 700 - 720 meters altitude. In Germany that would mean a very hilly motorway with lots of tunnels and viaducts. However AP-36 runs through a flat area. 

Even € 25 million per kilometer in mountainous areas is not extraordinary.

This is what 700 m altitude in central Spain looks like:









This is what 400 -500 m altitude in Germany can look like:


----------



## pepin0

Yeah, but Spain is the second most mountainous country of Europe only behind of Switzerland.....so it's very expensive build all kind of infraestructures...Look A-2 between Zaragoza-Madrid...


----------



## alserrod

Between Zaragoza and Calatayud there are 90 km and 5 mountains passes. 
Those mountains passes are very small. Highest about 900m but it is always up and down on the mountain.


In general, from North Madrid (about 100 km) to Burgos (and from Soria to Leon) there is a flat area
From south Madrid to near Despeñaperros, another flat area.
Apart of it, the Ebro and Guadalquivir have a very flat valleys (areas arount Zaragoza and Sevilla)

The rest of territory is absolutely a mountain area. Some of them very high, another very flat... but all mountains

(it is curious... the highest municipality is 1692m over sea level and... the highest peak in that area is 2020m and can be reached by car)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

pepin0 said:


> Yeah, but Spain is the second most mountainous country of Europe only behind of Switzerland.....so it's very expensive build all kind of infraestructures...Look A-2 between Zaragoza-Madrid...


No, it's not. Spain's average elevation may be high, but this says nothing about the mountainousness of a country. As pointed out many areas of higher elevations in Spain are relatively flat. Norway, Austria, Slovakia, Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo and Albania all likely have a higher percentage of their land area with significant altitude differences than Spain.


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## Suburbanist

The impact of mountains and altitude on highway construction is not that straightforward. Building a road in a wide enough Alpine valley is usually cheap (Swiss A2) if you don't need to bank your highway on a lot of earthworks and viaducts (Italian A22).

Spain has many plateaus, which are as cheap to build as low plains of Central Europe, indeed, sometimes even cheaper because they have some declivity that makes extensive embankment not needed. 

As for areas that are merely hilly, there are many options available. Some, like the Italians, will resort - extensively - to tunnel digging instead of earthworks and more curvy roads, which might bring costs down. I realize Spanish design and guidelines allow for more earthworks than it would be the case in other countries where digging tunnels would be preferred.


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## CNGL

solchante said:


> and a cool video


I posted that video before!


----------



## Cicerón

Video showing the new northbound carriageway. The old road has been renamed to N-IVa.






In the last half of the video you can also see the works for the refurbishment of the A-4 in the province of Ciudad Real.


----------



## solchante

CNGL said:


> I posted that video before!


¿aqui en el internacional?
no lo habia visto, gracias de todos modos


----------



## J N Winkler

RamiroII said:


> Furthermore, maintenance and financial costs should also be considered in the cost-effectiveness, take for example the last stretch of the A-66 Zamora-Benavente (49 Km): it has been awarded for € 1.3 billion (!), which includes the building and the maintenance for 30 years.


The three _tramos_ which make up the A-66 between Zamora and Benavente have only been advertised with an estimated €1.356 billion budget, not awarded yet. The deadline for submission of tenders elapsed last 20 September and tenders will not even be opened until later this month.

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...CESION/autovias/concesion_obra/70-ZA-0010.htm

As an aside, I successfully downloaded all the documentation (32.6 GB!), but it took several tries to do so. The RAR archives are too fragile to survive downloading over a residential cable connection without CRC and unexpected-end-of-archive errors. I'd recommend downloading just Tramo II (the smallest of the three) as a test, and if uncompressing the RARs kicks up CRC errors, I'd recommend moving to a higher-quality connection with few steps between the data fiber and your network adapter.



> For the next decades, the Spanish state will have to pay for the maintenance of a larger motorway network than Germany, with barely a third of Germany's GDP, and with lower gas taxes and almost no tolls (see for instance the new Despeñaperros: a magnificent -and expensive- autovía completely free of use, therefore making the public budget bear the full burden of its cost, for decades to come). And there are even more projected low-traffic motorways to be built...


I don't see any difficulties in the fiscal position. Spain may have a third of Germany's GDP, but it also has less than one-half the population. Nominal Spanish _per capita_ GDP is about three-quarters Germany's ($30,639 versus $40,274, using 2010 IMF figures as quoted in Wikipedia). The disparity is even less when _per capita_ GDP is expressed in purchasing power parity: $36,081 (Germany) versus $29,830 (Spain) (again, using 2010 IMF figures from Wikipedia). The level of fuel taxation is unimportant since, unlike the federal government and most state governments in the United States, neither Spain nor Germany currently hypothecates motoring-related tax revenue to highway construction or maintenance. In both countries these revenues are several multiples of the amount actually spent on the roads.

At the moment Spanish government spending on capital improvement is heavily tilted toward the railways. Take a look at ADIF's tender advertisements: at the moment there is at least one construction contract for a high-speed rail line out to tender. Then look at Fomento's highway construction advertisements. With the exception of the A-66 Benavente-Zamora, which is a concession contract, and three contracts advertised last July (two of which were for _obras de terminación_ for projects which were halted half-finished because of design problems and the economic crisis), it has been an almost uninterrupted drought since early 2009. The situation is almost as bad in the autonomous communities.


----------



## Attus

Unfortunately roads can't be maintained by a per capita GDP but by absolute figures. 
Or, on the other side you can say that Spain has almost the same GDP per capita as Germany but has more than twice so much motorways, per capita so that the issue is really serious.


----------



## Suburbanist

Attus said:


> Unfortunately roads can't be maintained by a per capita GDP but by absolute figures.
> Or, on the other side you can say that Spain has almost the same GDP per capita as Germany but has more than twice so much motorways, per capita so that the issue is really serious.


It's not, because road expenditure is low compared to the general size of their economies.

It also has a fair length of tolled roads, which don't exist in Germany for cars.


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## ChrisZwolle

Another issue in Germany is that they need to spend billions on replacing inferior viaducts built in the 1960's and early 1970's. Spain doesn't have this issue. German's Autobahns are also much heavier trafficked, especially considering truck traffic, which means they need to renovate their motorways more often than Spain. The quoted € 25 million for mountain motorways is even a million lower than the average cost of constructing a motorway in all of Germany. And, as Winkler noted, the revenue from motorist taxation exceeds expenditures a couple of times. Motorists bring in enough money for the upkeep and future expansion of the Spanish road network.


----------



## Viva_Bulgaria

Cicerón said:


> You're welcome
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. Try this link (warning, 9 MB).
> 
> For more maps showing existing and projected motorways: http://trenecicos.wordpress.com/2011/09/09/mapas-desglosados-de-la-red-de-autovias-de-espana/


Thank very much for those links, Cicerón. I had the map before my computer got screwed but then I searched it for three months but I could not download it from anywhere. Now it seems the author has split the existing/under construction/planned motorways into three maps but that is good too. Thank you again. :cheers:

PS: The Autovia A-4 looks amazing at Despeñaperros. I hope one day we will see something similar in Bulgaria.


----------



## spacetweek

I have used the Wiki source here  to draw Google Maps of the future Spanish autovías and autopistas. To enable viewing all at once, I split it into 5 parts: 

Madrid and Centre
South
Galicia
Northeast
Islands

Total autovias planned and under construction: 6824 km
Total autopistas planned and under construction: 651 km
Total: 7475 km

This will result in around a 22000 km network eventually. That would be the third longest in the world I believe after China and the USA.


----------



## alserrod

Have a look after Ubeda... because I am not sure if they are on works or just only in project.


----------



## solchante

spacetweek said:


> I have used the Wiki source here  to draw Google Maps of the future Spanish autovías and autopistas. To enable viewing all at once, I split it into 5 parts:
> 
> Madrid and Centre
> South
> Galicia
> Northeast
> Islands
> 
> Total autovias planned and under construction: 6824 km
> Total autopistas planned and under construction: 651 km
> Total: 7475 km
> 
> This will result in around a 22000 km network eventually. That would be the third longest in the world I believe after China and the USA.




impressive!! thanks

:applause:
:applause:
:applause:


----------



## alserrod

In this month, three parts of the motorway between Lerida and Pamplona will be opened (A-22, A-23 and A-21) in the region of Aragon

Tomorrow the first one at Binefar (A-22).
I will try to write about them as far as they get opened.


----------



## alserrod

11:00

Right now, the Binefar site of the A-22 motorway is open

One part more at A-22. 6,7 km that connects two already open sites


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This was the last section between Barbastro and Lleida to be opened? When I drove there in 2005 there was not a single section opened.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> This was the last section between Barbastro and Lleida to be opened? When I drove there in 2005 there was not a single section opened.


Remembering...

Monzon North- Monzon south 2006
Ponzano- Barbastro east Jan 2009
Almacelles south - Lerida Dec 2009
Sietamo - Lascellas Jul 2010
Lascellas - Ponzano (only 3,8 km part of last strecht not opened in July 2010) Dec 2010
Almacelles - Binefar south Jan 2011
Monzon south - Binefar south Oct 2011


(maybe I got wrong with some dates)


----------



## alserrod

And... Googhe earth is not updated. This is the real journey from Lerida to Sietamo since today (A-22 and N-240).
Sietamo-Huesca has works still not started


http://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=ll...A&vpsrc=6&mra=dpe&mrsp=1&sz=13&via=1&t=h&z=13


Official ministry note:


http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...E_PRENSA/NOTICIAS1/2011/OCTUBRE/111009-01.htm


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> This was the last section between Barbastro and Lleida to be opened? When I drove there in 2005 there was not a single section opened.


No, the Almacelles bypass is missing. It will be opened on the first months of 2012. Then will remain the Siétamo-Huesca section, where works haven't started yet and I believe it will be a bottleneck. And the infamous speed camera located just after a 70 km/h limit sign, that will continue to fine until at least 2015 (Once I saw that camera catching a driver who forgot to brake!).


----------



## alserrod

Some pics about A-22 motorway at Binefar:

http://www.hoyenaragon.es/noticia.php/abierto-el-tramo-de-la-autovía-entre-binefar-y-monzon/2769

They have the page "cut" for a copy-paste of the link... but there you will see four pics.


----------



## alserrod

El Hierro is the western island at Canary. It has a population of less than 11.000 people and only 28 km corner to corner (and highest point with 1.500 m over sea level!)

In last week some volcano eruptions have appeared on the sea near El Hierro. They are under investigation but there is a plan to evacuate population if needed.

Capital is in the western coast and population is in the western and central area of the island (not to many distances if only 28 km corner to corner).

Anyway... for security, this tunnel has been closed to traffic:
http://maps.google.es/?ll=27.81899,-17.983836&spn=0.004925,0.010568&t=h&z=17&vpsrc=6

and makes people from the town of Frontera take 45 minutes more to go to the capital, airport or harbour. Even if short distances, mountains are high.


A great road disruption in a very quite island 2000 km away from central Spain, in the middle of the Atlantic.


----------



## alserrod

alserrod said:


> El Hierro is the western island at Canary. It has a population of less than 11.000 people and only 28 km corner to corner (and highest point with 1.500 m over sea level!)
> 
> In last week some volcano eruptions have appeared on the sea near El Hierro. They are under investigation but there is a plan to evacuate population if needed.
> 
> Capital is in the western coast and population is in the western and central area of the island (not to many distances if only 28 km corner to corner).
> 
> Anyway... for security, this tunnel has been closed to traffic:
> http://maps.google.es/?ll=27.81899,-17.983836&spn=0.004925,0.010568&t=h&z=17&vpsrc=6
> 
> and makes people from the town of Frontera take 45 minutes more to go to the capital, airport or harbour. Even if short distances, mountains are high.
> 
> 
> A great road disruption in a very quite island 2000 km away from central Spain, in the middle of the Atlantic.



In the other corner of the island, the town of La Restinga (the southern town of Spain) has started to be evacuated today.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Even El Hierro has its own prefix: HI-xxx.


----------



## alserrod

All Canary Islands roads have an own code.

Last year I was at Fuerteventura. FV-XX for all. I do not know why but eastern roads (near the capital and airport) where FV-X and western roads there FV-X0 (FV-10, FV-20, FV-30). Rest of roads where FV-XX (any number).

As a curiosity, there is a point only 97 km away from Morocco, and a natural area that could be considered as part of Sahara Dessert.


They are seven major islands. 
El Hierro is the located far away and less population... and the situation could be very new for a lot of people. Tropic latitude is close to there...


----------



## CNGL

AFAIK they are renumbering A-8 up to Bilbao (The tolled section) to AP-8, so the latter is not correct. It seems that finally the renumeration is slowly extending to Basque Country, I've already saw signs on N-I in Álava stating that is the A-1.


----------



## Cicerón

J N Winkler said:


> I have had some experience with all of these methods of getting access to _proyectos_.[...]


Well, you were more or less lucky. I once wanted to see a construction project for a footbridge in Logroño that has not been built yet. I went to the _Ayuntamiento_, asked in 3 different windows, went to the archives, visited 2 offices, and finally visited the Head of urban planning that told me to go to the office of Contracting for municipal projects. At least all the people I met were friendly :lol:



J N Winkler said:


> Close--it was actually the Luko-Arlaban _tramo_ (essentially, N-240 just north of Vitoria northeast to the Gipuzkoa provincial boundary) and the drawing chopblocks, which were bilingual Spanish/Basque, all said "Diputación Foral de Álava" in Spanish. I stopped keeping track of the project once I filed the documentation, but I think this length was handed over to Arabat for operation (including toll collection) and maintenance. (I can't get to the Arabat website to check right now--I get a "Service Unavailable" error message.)


From http://www.arabat.org/wcastellano/somos.asp

(I used Google translator)



> Arabat, Arabako Bideak-Vías de Álava, S.A., is a subsidiary of the Department of Public Works and Transportation of the Provincial Council of Alava, aimed at the preservation, maintenance, operation and safety of the Vitoria-Eibar motorway to its passage through the Historical Territory of Álava.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Arabako Bideak-Vías de Álava S.A. emerged in 2003 as a public corporation responsible for the construction of the AP-1 in Álava. From the opening of the motorway on May 22, 2009, Arabat has begun a new phase, in which the main issue is the security and maintenance of this road in order to provide the best service to users and to further enhance the connectivity of the AP-1.





J N Winkler said:


> Google Maps does have it down as AP-1. The _proyecto de construcción_ referred to it as A-1, but it was compiled before _autovía_ and _autopista_ renumbering. I was under the impression, however, that this renumbering did not extend to the Basque Country and therefore their _autovías_ were still numbered as _carreteras nacionales_ and that their _autopistas_ had A- (as opposed to AP-) numbers. Is the latter not correct?


The Basques simply didn't want to spend money on new signs. However the new parts of the AP-8 (such as the Supersur in Bilbao and the new San Sebastián bypass) are signed as AP-8. Since most of the Vitoria-Éibar part of the AP-1 was opened after the renumbering, it has always had the AP-1 kilometerposts.

Anyway road numbering in the Basque country is a mess. The A-15 has always been called "Autovía de Leitzaran", but it's signed as an autopista. Some autopistas in Biscay are numbered like regional roads, such as the BI-636, the GI-632 in Gipuzkoa and a bunch of motorways in the Bilbao and San Sebastián metro areas. Plus, some autovías keep the old "N-" number.

The A-1 in Álava is simply a madness. I'll quote myself from the Spanish forum:

-From Miranda de Ebro to the southern border Treviño (recently refurbished) the signs say A-1, the kilometerposts are blue and say A-1.

-From the northern border of Treviño to the East of Vitoria the signs say N-I (old autovía signage: blue letters over white background), but the kilometerposts say A-1 (it seems they've put a sticker, as the background is still white).

-From the East of Vitoria to the border with Navarre the kilometerposts say N-I and the signs too.


----------



## alserrod

J N Winkler said:


> Google Maps does have it down as AP-1. The _proyecto de construcción_ referred to it as A-1, but it was compiled before _autovía_ and _autopista_ renumbering. I was under the impression, however, that this renumbering did not extend to the Basque Country and therefore their _autovías_ were still numbered as _carreteras nacionales_ and that their _autopistas_ had A- (as opposed to AP-) numbers. Is the latter not correct?




The renumbering is only for Ministry roads (this is... except Navarra and Basque Country... and islands), but in general, those roads or motorways that start or finish at Navarra or Basque country and continues outside their territory, they are used to have the same number that in the rest of Spain. Easier for drivers... but there are two different administrations who put the number to the "same" road.


----------



## alserrod

J N Winkler said:


> In the summer of 2010 I visited a couple of _demarcaciónes_ in search of _proyectos_ for motorways. At the first one I visited, I was asked to come back later the same day, and when I returned, I was allowed to transfer the contents of CDs for three _proyectos_ to my laptop. At the second one, I was taken to the records office, where I was told that I needed to contact person X to see whether access could be granted. When I emailed X, he told me that he could not grant access on his own authority and suggested that I should take my request to Y, the _jefe de demarcación_. I wrote a paper letter to Y identifying the _proyectos_ I wanted, noting that they pertained to completed work, and explaining why I wanted to see them. Y wrote back several days later, agreeing that the _proyectos_ were indeed archived. But, he said, since I had not specified a legal interest in the information contained in the _proyectos_, he could not grant me access to them. I considered taking the issue to a higher level but did not do so because the Constitution guarantees access only to citizens and I felt I was already on shaky ground since I am not a citizen of Spain.




I am not a lawyer but Spanish Constitution makes reference to UE citizens as well as any administration has to give the same rights to all UE citizens.

There is an institution devoted to protect citizens over administrations. All administrations have agreement to colaborate with it. And all regional governments have their own one added. It is called "Defensor del pueblo español".

I've written twice or three times to the institution in my region and once to the Spanish one. 
In the case of Spanish time, no solution but they gave me a lot of information about how to operate (numbering laws to apply, procedures, where I had reason...). They are not judges, but they can help you.

You can send a form by normal post or by its web form. They have a little translation of their page to English and French (and the rest of official languages in Spain) but forms must be written in Spanish. They consider you can live abroad Spain as far as they put how you have to write your direction if you live or do not live at Spain.

Be sure that if you write your complain you will receive an answer in a month, more or less. They request no more than two pages at the form (and you can attach files if via web-form) and I recommend you to write as many information as you can, details, etc...


----------



## alserrod

Ops.... the web page is this:

http://www.defensordelpueblo.es/es/index.html


On the top, there is a short English version, even if they advice you must use the Spanish version to write a form.


----------



## J N Winkler

I will have a look at it. It was actually the _defensor del pueblo_ in Navarre which issued the odd judgment requiring redaction of engineers' names, so that was part of the reason I didn't consider appealing to the national ombudsman back in June 2010 when my request was refused. (As an aside, _defensor del pueblo_ in Spanish = _ombudsman_ in English.) I still have the letter I wrote to the _jefe de demarcación_, dated 14 June 2010 (and written in Spanish), but after a lapse of 16 months I suspect I would need to start again with the _demarcación_.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

8 kilometers of A-21 in the northern Pyrenees mountains will be opened tomorrow:

http://www.abc.es/agencias/noticia.asp?noticia=968765


----------



## alserrod

Wow Chris... you were first in the news!!! I was waiting for the opening.

I say it because it is one strech in my region and we are not used to have opening and... there will be three this month!!! (someone can think that next month we have general elections???????)


It is the first strech at Aragon of the A-21. In the following days, another one in the A-23 (Jaca-Sabiñanigo) will be opened too.

It is not so much, but helps connections over Pyrenees as well as from Atlantic to Mediterranean.

A-22 is near to be finished, A-21 and A-23 has parts on works and other ones very advanced. Maybe in the 2016 more or less it will be possible to travel almost free toll from San Sebastian to Tarragona, as well as it is the shortest way:

A-1, A-15, AP-15, A-21, A-23, A-22, A-2, AP-2 and A-27... full numbers of motorways from San Sebastian to Tarragona when finished. Only two streches tolled.


----------



## Viva_Bulgaria

It is good to see progress on the Autovía del Pirineo :cheers:

But speaking of elections I can say a difference between Bulgaria and Spain - here they "promise" new motorways, in Spain the "inaugurate" new ones. So, your way is better :lol:


----------



## OriK

Viva_Bulgaria said:


> It is good to see progress on the Autovía del Pirineo :cheers:
> 
> But speaking of elections I can say a difference between Bulgaria and Spain - here they "promise" new motorways, in Spain the "inaugurate" new ones. So, your way is better :lol:


Hahahaha, if they were keeping all their promisses here we wouldn't have any sq meter free of asphalt hahaha.

For example in the 90's they "promissed" an underground network of motorways under Madrid city with direct links to underground parkings (to avoid urban traffic).

It would have been an interesting project but luckily they came to their sense!! Furthermore the motorways network was viable (the M-30 is a proof of it) but those huge underground parkings was not.

Other weird (and not accomplished) promissed projects include maglev trains crossing the Madrid metropolitan area in minutes or make underground almost every single km of railways... (we love underground things in Spain! haha)


----------



## alserrod

Viva_Bulgaria said:


> It is good to see progress on the Autovía del Pirineo :cheers:
> 
> But speaking of elections I can say a difference between Bulgaria and Spain - here they "promise" new motorways, in Spain the "inaugurate" new ones. So, your way is better :lol:




Not always... I can make a full list of motorways "promised" and not started yet.

And the list will be hughe


----------



## alserrod

A little image that can help... this WILL be the situation (forecast) of Pamplona-Lerida in February 2012, considering the strech opened today, another one to be open this month and someones more in the following months.











Take a look that:

- It is the shortest and fastest way from Lerida to Pamplona (more than AP-15, AP-68, AP-2). It is the shortest way also from San Sebastian to anywhere of Catalonia
- Free tolled (except if, for instance, Irurzun-Pamplona and Lerida-Monblanc, if destination is Tarragona or southern)
- A good option from south west France to several destinations
- And... just 20 km away from internationa Somport tunnel (from Jaca)


----------



## Cicerón

Newer pictures of the new A-7 (Hiperronda) and AP-46 in Málaga.

It seems that they are still using the old painting style.


----------



## alserrod

Some days ago I posted a map about forecasted situation between Lerida and Pamplona in winter 2012.

Today the strech between Jaca east and Sabiñánigo west (A-23) is open!.

A new strech.

About the rest... there are three or four that can be opened in less than one year but other ones which will require more than several years working there.


P.S. Motorway arrives now only 20 km south from Somport tunnel.


----------



## alserrod

And another news...


The central strech of this image I posted several years ago was opened yesterday (Jaca-Sabiñánigo)

I link a news in a local newspaper. http://www.heraldo.es/noticias/huesca/la_autovia_entre_jaca_sabinanigo_pone_servicio_162350_302.html

There are too many kilometres of road between Huesca and Pamplona but seems to be a good option.

And you can see the distance from the motorway to the border with France and Somport tunnel


----------



## Cicerón

Aerial pictures of the new A-7 opened today and AP-46, to be opened tomorrow.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The final section of A-7 south of Alcoy will also be opened tomorrow. It will provide a continuous toll-free link between Alicante and Valencia.


----------



## mmmartin

Motorway picture taken by landing on Madrid Barajas on Sep 12th. Which motorways are that?


----------



## CasaMor

Cicerón said:


> Aerial pictures of the new A-7 opened today and AP-46, to be opened tomorrow.


I was wondering what is it. I saw the works last June before landing at the Malaga airport. Now I know. kay:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

mmmartin said:


> Motorway picture taken by landing on Madrid Barajas on Sep 12th. Which motorways are that?


M-45 branches off M-50 here. M-50 goes left, M-45 straight ahead. Immediately south of San Fernando de Henares.


----------



## Cicerón

A-number does not imply autovía . The necessary and sufficient condition for some road to be an autovía is the "AUTOVÍA" (or "AUTOBIA" in Basque-speaking areas) S-1a sign I posted above. 

If you check the pages 53 and 54 of the chapter 7 of the _Anuario_ (posted by ajch), you'll see that the A-78 does not exist officially as "autovía o autopista libre de peaje", but if you check the "doble calzada" there's the N-340 "Inicio doble calzada - Fin doble calzada (p. k. 708,340 - 722,260)" which is exactly that stretch of road signed as A-78.


Welcome to Spain


----------



## ChrisZwolle

New Google Earth imagery around Barcelona.

B-40: intense black pavement.


----------



## alserrod

which is the exact location? as far as I know, there are zones where B-40 goes slowly and other ones very advanced


----------



## Luki_SL

ChrisZwolle said:


> New Google Earth imagery around Barcelona.
> 
> B-40: intense black pavement.


This printscreen looks like painting because of this black pavement


----------



## Cicerón

alserrod said:


> which is the exact location? as far as I know, there are zones where B-40 goes slowly and other ones very advanced


41º31'32.18'' N 1º54'21.21''E




Some pictures of the new C-15 in Catalonia.


Sky said:


> Fotos de l'Eix Diagonal del Flickr del DTS http://www.flickr.com/photos/territoricat/



And a video:


alfred2222 said:


> Hola !
> 
> Penjo un video de la nova C15 per a qui li pugui interessar. Està inspirat en un altre video que vaig veure de la variant de Bilbao, per si ho pregunteu.. xdd


----------



## snowland

Impressive one. ^^


----------



## g.spinoza

So Spaniards finally began boring tunnels... everywhere I went this summer there were all these mountains cut in the middle to make space for the road, as if they were scared to cover the cut afterwards...


----------



## alserrod

It depends too much about the type of terrain. Should it be a rock, it is cheaper, but several materials it is much cheaper to make those "holes"...


----------



## solchante

Cicerón said:


> It's the official map made by the Comunidad de Madrid. Here's a PDF version:
> 
> http://www.madrid.org/cs/Satellite?...goBlobs&blobwhere=1272024780846&ssbinary=true
> 
> Here are some more official regional road maps in PDF format (warning, some of them may be too heavy):
> 
> 
> Alava: http://www.alava.net/cs/Satellite?b...goBlobs&blobwhere=1224075316488&ssbinary=true
> Andalusia: http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/viviendayordenaciondelterritorio/www/jsp/guia_carreteras/mapa.html
> Aragon: http://www.carreterasdearagon.es/pix/mapa_carreteras_aragon.pdf
> Asturias:http://www.asturias.es/InfoAsturias/Ficheros/Publicaciones turísticas 2011/Mapa_de_Carreteras.pdf
> Biscay: http://www.bizkaia.net/home2/Archivos/DPTO6/Temas/Pdf/MAPA BIZKAIA 2009.pdf
> Cantabria: http://carreterasdecantabria.es/Descargas/MapaGuantera_2011.pdf
> Catalonia: http://www20.gencat.cat/docs/mobili...s_de_carreteres/turisme_250_2010_reducido.pdf
> Castile-La Mancha: http://www.jccm.es/contenidos/portal/ccurl/1000/542/Mapa Carreteras C-LM.pdf
> Extremadura (58MB!): http://fomento.juntaex.es/informacion-ciudadano/carreteras/mapacarreteras/mapacarreteras-1.pdf
> Galicia: http://cmati.xunta.es/portal/webdav/site/cptopv/shared/es/pdfs/dxt/20110506/RAEGA_11_05.pdf
> La Rioja (18MB!): http://www.iderioja.larioja.org/archivos/pdf/mapgen_altares_2008.pdf
> Majorca: http://www.conselldemallorca.net/media/6719/mapa_nom_carreteres_07.pdf
> Navarre (23MB!): http://www.cfnavarra.es/webgn/sou/i...ial de Carreteras de Navarra 2010 digital.pdf
> Valencia Region: http://www.cit.gva.es/fileadmin/conselleria/images/Documentos/carreteras/mapas/CVmapa.pdf
> 
> 
> Couldn't find the ones for Castile&Leon, Gipuzkoa, Murcia, Minorca, Ibiza, or the Canary Islands.




thanks! :cheers:


----------



## Cicerón

The Spanish Islands of Ibiza, Formentera, El Hierro, La Gomera and La Palma, part of the metro area of Bilbao (Getxo, Santurtzi...), some minor cities and some paths are now available in Google Street View.

BI-664 (main route to the Port of Bilbao) tunnels near Santurtzi.

Ibiza Ring Road

Garajonay National Park in La Gomera island


----------



## Cicerón

A-21 U/C

http://g.co/maps/8zhbg

The Navarrese part that will be opened next Thursday (Dec 22). Pictures taken a week ago (Dec 8). From West to East:










Near Liédena


















Yesa









Provisory end of the stretch










Now in Aragon



























End of the A-21 near the abandoned village of Tiermas









View of the Aragonese stretch (looking West)










Source:http://www.nevasport.com/phorum/read.php?75,501534,2632254,page=42#msg-2632254




PS: Sorry for writing 2 consecutive posts.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The M-40 / M-501 roundabout in the western Madrid suburbs has been adequately rebuild into a hybrid cloverleaf / windmill. It opened to traffic today.

previous:









current:


----------



## Protteus

Hi guys, Random question. 
I wonder why do you use a roundabout on each exit? At least exits with
not too much traffic, instead of, for example using a single crossing.


----------



## Suburbanist

Protteus said:


> Hi guys, Random question.
> I wonder why do you use a roundabout on each exit? At least exits with
> not too much traffic, instead of, for example using a single crossing.


To increase safety. 4-way stops are rare in European signaling, and, frankly, these roundabouts increase safety a lot, avoiding head-on collisions with the occasional fast and distracted driver who doesn't adjust his speed upon exiting the highway.

Some research has shown show these roundabout reduces the speed on ramp and in the immediate vicinity a lot.


----------



## Cicerón

Protteus said:


> Hi guys, Random question.
> I wonder why do you use a roundabout on each exit? At least exits with
> not too much traffic, instead of, for example using a single crossing.
> http://www.nevasport.com/fotos/091211/418998.jpg


I don't know why, but nearly the 95% of the freeway-to-normal-road interchanges built in the last 15 years in Spain are of that kind. If the normal road has more traffic, then one of these interchanges is built:











Also, in a normal crossing in Spain, you find a "STOP" sing if you want to turn left, or a yield sign if you want to turn right. This is an example: http://g.co/maps/e4wkk

In a roundabout there is usually better visibility and you don't need to stop unless there's traffic.


----------



## J N Winkler

Cicerón said:


> I don't know why, but nearly the 95% of the freeway-to-normal-road interchanges built in the last 15 years in Spain are of that kind. If the normal road has more traffic, then one of these interchanges is built:


I suspect the reason is to economize on bridge deck area, which is typically the largest component of the cost. Spain is also more likely than other countries to route minor undercrossing roads through box culverts instead of building bridges to carry the freeway over them.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Does CM-40 even exist?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-44 around Granada, new alignment.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Does CM-40 even exist?



Yes, it is even avalaible for clinch. It is open for one year now. What a pity that I didn't saw that when I was in Toledo a couple of weeks ago.

Edit: In this post there are photos that prove that CM-40 exists, like Teruel.


----------



## OriK

ChrisZwolle said:


> Does CM-40 even exist?


As CNGL has said it exists and is open. I used it ~9 months ago coming back from Talavera to my town in the north of Toledo province.

Its main purpose is to collect the traffic of all the conventional roads that come from the south and west to Toledo in order to decongest those entrances to the city and allow those people to reach easily and fastly to the CM-42, A-42, A-40 and N-403 or access to a more convenient entrance to the city.

It doesn't have much traffic but it was a huge improvement to the city traffic because before that motorway people had to cross the city to reach A-42.


----------



## Cicerón

1,479 people died on the Spanish roads in 2011. The lowest number in 50 years.

Year | Deaths

1992: 5,035
1993: 4,653
1994: 4,026
1995: 4,220
1996: 3,998
1997: 4,034
1998: 4,289
1999: 4,280
2000: 4,295
2002: 4,026
2003: 4,029
2004: 3,511
2005: 3,332
2006: 3,017
2007: 2,742
2008: 2,181
2009: 1,903
2010: 1,730
2011: 1,479


Source: http://www.rtve.es/noticias/2012010...imas-mortales-accidentes-trafico/486685.shtml


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That would put Spain maybe even at the top spot for European traffic safety.

I don't think we can consider these numbers to be final though. Usually final numbers aren't reported until February or even April.


----------



## Pavlemadrid

A52 in Zamora:









A6 in Madrid:


----------



## g.spinoza

Cicerón said:


> 1,479 people died on the Spanish roads in 2011. The lowest number in 50 years.
> 
> Year | Deaths
> 
> 1992: 5,035
> 1993: 4,653
> 1994: 4,026
> 1995: 4,220
> 1996: 3,998
> 1997: 4,034
> 1998: 4,289
> 1999: 4,280
> 2000: 4,295
> 2002: 4,026
> 2003: 4,029
> 2004: 3,511
> 2005: 3,332
> 2006: 3,017
> 2007: 2,742
> 2008: 2,181
> 2009: 1,903
> 2010: 1,730
> 2011: 1,479
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.rtve.es/noticias/2012010...imas-mortales-accidentes-trafico/486685.shtml





ChrisZwolle said:


> That would put Spain maybe even at the top spot for European traffic safety.


Italian figuers are a bit higher: 2185 deaths in 2011, although you have to remember that Italian population is also higher:

Spain: 1479/47.000.000 = 3.14 deaths per 100.000 inh;
Italy: 2185/61.000.000 = 3.58 deaths per 100.000 inh.

A bit higher but comparable.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

According to eurostat the 2010 death rate in Italy was 66 per million, or 6.6 per 100.000 inhabitants. I remember from last year that the definitive road toll in Italy was significantly higher than reported in January. 

Which is why one should use caution with preliminary figures like these. As far as I know an "official traffic fatality" may be someone who dies 30 days after the accident, so putting out numbers on January 1st or 2nd or even 15th seems premature. Another issue is that reported numbers often only include (sometimes poorly registered) data of the highway police.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Which is why one should use caution with preliminary figures like these. As far as I know an "official traffic fatality" may be someone who dies 30 days after the accident, so putting out numbers on January 1st or 2nd or even 15th seems premature.


There is no way they can affect total death toll significantly.



> Another issue is that reported numbers often only include (sometimes poorly registered) data of the highway police.


This can be significant.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> That would put Spain maybe even at the top spot for European traffic safety.
> 
> I don't think we can consider these numbers to be final though. Usually final numbers aren't reported until February or even April.




There is too much to do anywhere, but the real scene is that it is the first time with less than 1500 death/year in 50 years!!!!!!!!!!!

One thing very important (and we have a very great unstandarization with other countries) is that only are counted people who dies in the accident. Should a person gets injured and dies in the hospital is not considered in those statistics. So it is impossible to compare.

En july 2006 the "points driving licence" started going on... and as you can see, death on road went down quickly.

It is calculated that cars run 8 km/h less after starting the "points driving licence".


----------



## yoladeuche

g.spinoza said:


> There is no way they can affect total death toll significantly.


Yes, it is significant. Taking 2008 as an example:
deaths 24 hours, roads only (non-urban): 2181
deaths 30 days, roads only: 2466
deaths 30 days, roads and urban areas: 3100

Source: 
http://www.dgt.es/portal/es/seguridad_vial/estadistica/


----------



## yoladeuche

alserrod said:


> En july 2006 the "points driving licence" started going on... and as you can see, death on road went down quickly.
> 
> It is calculated that cars run 8 km/h less after starting the "points driving licence".


Well, there is a significant decrease between 2003 and 2004 not explained by this theory, and the biggest decrease (2007-2008) is concurrent with other possible causes: dramatic increase in oil prices, Euribor going up and many people having to choose between continuing to pay the car loan or the mortgage...


----------



## alserrod

Taken from Spanish forum.

It is in Spanish. I translate:

In Bold, death on accidents on road (in thousands)

Between brackets, accidents per million cars


----------



## Xpressway

Are any projects in risk of being cancelled or are already delayed or scaled down because of the current fiscal problems in Spain?


----------



## alserrod

No new cancels are stimated. We had a very strong cancelling one and a half year ago. Some of them have been taken again... and they are just making new motorways with a normal rithm (not so strong as before crisis).

We can see data of new motorways in 2010 and 2011 and notice that new projects go on but slowly.


----------



## g.spinoza

yoladeuche said:


> Yes, it is significant. Taking 2008 as an example:
> deaths 24 hours, roads only (non-urban): 2181
> deaths 30 days, roads only: 2466
> deaths 30 days, roads and urban areas: 3100
> 
> Source:
> http://www.dgt.es/portal/es/seguridad_vial/estadistica/


That's considering a whole year. If you consider only 1 month, it's 1/12th of 300, i.e. 25 people, so not significant at all.


----------



## J N Winkler

I am not seeing any pickup in tender advertisements yet, though. Fomento advertised three contracts last July (of which two were _obras de terminación_ for contracts which Fomento had advertised and awarded before 2008 but suspended), but nothing since then. SEITT has advertised nothing except a few small rail projects.


----------



## yoladeuche

g.spinoza said:


> That's considering a whole year. If you consider only 1 month, it's 1/12th of 300, i.e. 25 people, so not significant at all.


OK, now I understand your point, but that would be the case if the numbers given at January 1st were deaths after 30 days, in which case I suspect the authority providing the data would wait until February anyway, for reasons of consistency.


----------



## arnau_Vic

alserrod said:


> T




:applause:


----------



## ptscout

Maybe a result of the economic situation. That was also a reason for the increase in Germany 2011. ~48 per million against 32 in Spain is now a big difference.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The amount of fatalities in relation to the amount of registered vehicles is a weird way to measure traffic fatalities anyway.


----------



## alserrod

There are too many topics to take a view:

- First phase of highways were opened in 1991-1992. That year does not appear on chart (only 1989 when maximum) but since then the number started to decrease. They are those highways we have talked that have been refurbished. The first ones that currently are awful... but they made a decrease on accidents. They could be worst... but they were two lanes.

- In july 2006 the points driving licence started. Several fines could make you to lose your licence and have to ask for a new one. People drive later more carefully

- All cars (not only in Spain but at all the world) have longer security systems.
I compare sometimes some security facilities and I remember when going with no seat belts on back seats, when no special chairs for babies, no airbags, etc...


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## ElviS77

Cicerón said:


> 1,479 people died on the Spanish roads in 2011. The lowest number in 50 years.
> 
> Year | Deaths
> 
> 1992: 5,035
> 1993: 4,653
> 1994: 4,026
> 1995: 4,220
> 1996: 3,998
> 1997: 4,034
> 1998: 4,289
> 1999: 4,280
> 2000: 4,295
> 2002: 4,026
> 2003: 4,029
> 2004: 3,511
> 2005: 3,332
> 2006: 3,017
> 2007: 2,742
> 2008: 2,181
> 2009: 1,903
> 2010: 1,730
> 2011: 1,479
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.rtve.es/noticias/2012010...imas-mortales-accidentes-trafico/486685.shtml


No matter if the final statistics proves to be slightly worse, the improvement, particularly over the past 4-5 years is quite incredible. Any ideas why? Spanish roads or drivers haven't changed that much since 2007, I take it, and this is the kind of reduction of fatalities only seen elsewhere with the introduction of seat belt laws... Edit: I saw alserrods comment on points on the licence. Did that also include more active police patrolling?


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## Cicerón

Some pictures of the recently opened stretch of the A-21:

Liédena-Yesa and back:



bobyweb said:


> Pasarela de Liedena
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> Salida de Liedena con tuneles al fondo
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> Salida de Yesa con tuneles al fondo
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> Final de autovía señalado en túnel de Yesa
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> Final de autovía en kilometro 51 tras tunel de Yesa
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> Atención Desvio Provisional hacia N-240
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> Enlace desde N-240 a A-21 sentido Pamplona
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> Inicio Autovía A-21 sentido Pamplona antes del Puente de Leyre
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> Bienvenida a la nueva autovía dentro de los túneles
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> Liedena, canteras y pasarela al fondo desde la salida del tunel de Liedena


Source: http://www.nevasport.com/phorum/read.php?75,501534,page=50

A-21 Santa Cilia-Jaca U/C:



ALCES said:


> No soy el autor. El espía no esquía y yo no vuelo.
> 
> Esto es el famoso aerodromo de Santa Cilia.
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> Otra vista de Santa Cilia
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> Una vez pasado Santa Cilia vemos esto: otro barranco que se salta.
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> 
> Y después esta panorámica: al fondo Jaca, sobre la falda del río. Delante la traza de la Autovía bastante marcada. La carretera actual no se ve pero está a la derecha del río, por las peligrosas umbrías....
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> Obras a la altura de Ascara. Las pilonas se pueden ver desde la carretera actual
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> Y esta desde un poco más adelante: ya se ve Jaca con claridad.
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> Y aquí es donde terminan los trabajos de la Autovía, delante de Jaca y parece que queriendo enfilar el Valle del Aragón. ¿A que parece que algún día llegaremos hasta aquí?
> 
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> Y para terminar el reportaje, una foto dedicada a los que continúan el viaje hacia los pastos y suaves colinas del Valle del Tena: Conexion de Jaca con la Autovía hacia Sabiñánigo.


^^ This last picture shows the A-23 to Sabiñánigo.




ALCES said:


> Esta semana empieza con la mala noticia del viento. Vamos a animarla un poco con nuevas fotos que nos manda el espia del aire.
> 
> En esta se ve el importante viaducto que se está ejecutando para conectar el tramo 8 y el 9 (primero puesto en uso en Aragón).
> 
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> 
> En esta otra espectacular imagen vemos el inicio del tramo 9 y la curiosa rotonda que han parido los ingenieros de caminos. ¿es rara no?
> 
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> 
> Finalmente, esta otra foto, poco interesante pero tambien curiosa por la decoración de las rotondas. ¿Quien va a Asso Veral? ¡¡ Que chollo les ha caido a los 4 habitantes de la zona.


Source: http://www.nevasport.com/phorum/read.php?75,501534,page=53


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## Cicerón

New N-260 in Aragón, between Sabiñánigo and Fiscal.

Current road :crazy: :


alserrod said:


>


New road: Estimated opening: Spring 2012



Kalmado said:


> Pues ahí va una bateria de fotos. Ya me contareís cuando os parece que la abrirán según como están las obras.


Source: http://www.urbanity.es/foro/infraes...0-eje-subpirenaico-su-paso-por-aragon-15.html


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## ChrisZwolle

Wasn't there a lot of opposition against the A-21 around the Embalse de Yesa? Such a motorway in the Netherlands would be out of the question I guess. People even appeal against it if it's just grassland.


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## Cicerón

There is some opposition against the enlargement of the Yesa dam: http://www.yesano.com/

I can't remember any opposition against the motorway itself though. Of course there must be some people against it, but for every person against there are 5 in favour.


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## ChrisZwolle

Cicerón said:


> A-28, (...)... they make no sense.


I was reading a little bit into the A-28, which is a new number for me. It is supposed to form a north - south route along the east side of Madrid (outside the Comunidad de Madrid), initially from Guadalajara to Tarancón, but the money reserved for 169 kilometers indicates it may start at A-1 north of Madrid. 

Together with the A-40 to Ávila, AP-51, AP-61 and a link to A-1 this will form a mega ring road of approximately 550 kilometers around the Madrid region. 

In most countries, a route like that wouldn't've made any sense because of the low traffic volumes, but at € 4 million per kilometer anything above a few thousand vehicles per day is already profitable. I've seen two-lane bypasses with roundabouts in the Netherlands being advertised for more money than that. The conclusion is that building motorways in Spain is very cost-effective, even at traffic volumes considered too low in most of Europe. 

Traffic volumes in Spain are very low outside the metropolitan areas. Very few long-distance autovías carry more than 20.000 vehicles per day across longer sections. Even A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, A-5 & A-6 have significant sections with only around 8.000 - 15.000 vehicles per day. 

I wonder about the AP-41 though, I think it will go bankrupt because it's a toll road, and relies on toll income for survival. It's hard to believe 1.200 - 1.600 vehicles per day is economically sustainable. It's even less than the infamous AP-7 (Vera - Cartagena). It's also far too expensive, together with a drive across R-5 to Madrid it'll cost you around € 18 per day to make a back-and-forth trip from Toledo to Madrid, while there is a free (and slightly shorter) A-42 available.


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## OriK

You are right Chris, A-28 will be the East side of that macro-ringroad. It was firstly announced by the regional government (Castilla-La Mancha) and it was only intended to improve the communication between Cuenca and Guadalajara but the central government saw that it could be of national interest so they took the project.

The idea is to create something similar to this:








(Lines are not accurate with the path of the future/existing roads, but you could guess more or less wich cities are going to be connected, I think that the paths from Guadalajara to Segovia and from Toledo to Ávila are going to be way more direct, but they could also try to avoid the mountains... that are on those ways).

to try to avoid as much national traffic as possible throught the crowded and busy Madrid.

P.S and OT: I've moved to Netherlands for ~6months  I love it! nicely it's getting "warmer" haha.


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## ChrisZwolle

Funny, Xunta de Galicia have their own street view:

http://www.cmati.xunta.es/portal/cidadan/pid/183


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Wasn't there a lot of opposition against the A-21 around the Embalse de Yesa? Such a motorway in the Netherlands would be out of the question I guess. People even appeal against it if it's just grassland.





Cicerón said:


> There is some opposition against the enlargement of the Yesa dam: http://www.yesano.com/
> 
> I can't remember any opposition against the motorway itself though. Of course there must be some people against it, but for every person against there are 5 in favour.




As well as Ciceron says, the opposition was against the enlargement of the Dam, not against the motorway.

Currently there is a 40m heigh dam. There are several proposals, which maximum is 120m heigh of dam. Obviously there are all kind of intermediate proposals, hard and weak points for all of them.

Motorway is designed to be able for any of them (this is, over the highest one).



And... not about roads but about lanes, the old lane of St. James is under that dam. Today it is considered a new lane in the south of the dam as the "official" lane to St. James.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Autopista M-203*

Does anyone know what is going on with the M-203 between Alcalá de Henares and Mejorada del Campo? I read it's called the "perpetual construction" and I've also seen it dubbed an "utopista". Apparently construction already began in late 2005 or early 2006, but it is still not completed. What's going on there?


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## Bothar.G

Was the N-332 upgraded to a divided Highway near Guardamar? 

Any photos of this?


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## ChrisZwolle

Bothar.G said:


> Was the N-332 upgraded to a divided Highway near Guardamar?


That is the Autovía A-38. The Guardamar - Torrevieja section opened on 26 September 2011 (9.5 km). 

I managed to retrieve nearly all opening dates of Spanish autovías and autopistas.


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## Cicerón

ChrisZwolle said:


> Does anyone know what is going on with the M-203 between Alcalá de Henares and Mejorada del Campo? I read it's called the "perpetual construction" and I've also seen it dubbed an "utopista". Apparently construction already began in late 2005 or early 2006, but it is still not completed. What's going on there?


The regional government of Madrid gave a concession to Cintra/Ferrovial to build and operate it. Once the works had started, the regional government demanded a change in the project that would increase the budget costs by 20%. The concessionary refused these changes because they didn't want to pay more. Finally it seems that they have come to an agreement and the _autopista_ will be finished by the end of the current year.

Apparently the project had to be modified because the permission to build the tunnel under the High Speed Line Madrid-Barcelona was rejected.

Source: http://www.expansion.com/2009/08/20...b2274f4a64d9114faec56e04c5c28871&t=1329488922



ChrisZwolle said:


> That is the Autovía A-38. The Guardamar - Torrevieja section opened on 26 September 2011 (9.5 km).
> 
> I managed to retrieve nearly all opening dates of Spanish autovías and autopistas.


The Ministerio de Fomento calls it "Vía Parque", so it is not an _autovía_. Be careful if you go there as there may be some roundabouts.

I found a picture: 










http://www.bajo-segura.com/noticias_2011/nacional_n_332_250911.htm

A picture of the opening: It's signed as "Carretera N-332":


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## ChrisZwolle

Cicerón said:


> The Ministerio de Fomento calls it "Vía Parque", so it is not an _autovía_. Be careful if you go there as there may be some roundabouts.


Yeah I doubt if A-38 will run south of Alicante, as is claimed on wikipedia. The Guardamar - Torrevieja section indeed has two-lane roundabouts.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yeah I doubt if A-38 will run south of Alicante, as is claimed on wikipedia. The Guardamar - Torrevieja section indeed has two-lane roundabouts.




It is in Spanish but a forumer made a wide message about it recently

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=88590851&postcount=3067


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## Peines

VIA PARQUE... :no:


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## Peines

alserrod said:


> It is in Spanish but a forumer made a wide message about it recently
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=88590851&postcount=3067


That's me...!


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## Bothar.G

I read where the N332 upgrade was previously stalled because of a refusal to accept a compulsary purchase order by one land owner. Good to see the upgrade now. This road had really low speed limits like 40 km/h in parts when I drove there in 2004. Back then, it also had very narrow shoulder lanes.


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## Peines

Bothar.G said:


> I read where the N332 upgrade was previously stalled because of a refusal to accept a compulsary purchase order by one land owner. Good to see the upgrade now. This road had really low speed limits like 40 km/h in parts when I drove there in 2004. Back then, it also had very narrow shoulder lanes.


Now have more 40km/h speed limits than ever...!!! hno:

P.D.: VÍA PARQUE = Dual Carriageway with roundabouts every 2 or 3kms... hno:


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## Bothar.G

^^

I haven't been there since 2004.


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## Peines

^^


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## Peines

ChrisZwolle said:


> Except for the A-70+ numbers, most A-1 - A-69 numbers are already taken or planned in the future.


We need definitively a new system or new criteria because AP-71, A-73 & A-75 are in the wrong area, it would be better A-9X or A-8X numbers because both A-9 & A-8 are close to this motorways.

And a fact: A-78 & A-79 aren't even a motorway, just 2x2 roads...! :nuts:

No mention of the A-91, just a part of A-92N motorway. And the A-92 number comes from Expo'92 :bash:


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## alserrod

And the first motorway the regional government of Castilla y Leon built (Leon-Burgos) had the name of A-231. It is not managed by central government but from regional one.

Is it possible to make more difficult?


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## Peines

alserrod said:


> Is it possible to make more difficult?


YES :lol:


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## italystf

I think that Spain and Italy are the countries with the more messy road numbering.


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## CNGL

Peines said:


> YES :lol:


That route is no longer numbered V-TP :lol:, but RM-313 (In fact is the *V*ariante de *T*orre *P*acheco, Torre Pacheco bypass).


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## verreme

alserrod said:


> And the first motorway the regional government of Castilla y Leon built (Leon-Burgos) had the name of A-231. It is not managed by central government but from regional one.
> 
> Is it possible to make more difficult?


Yes. Roads property of regional government of Andalucía are also called A-XXX, and this includes motorways too, except, of course, A-92, A-92G and A-92N. In Aragón there is the same story, although its only regional motorway has its own prefix.


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## Peines

CNGL said:


> That route is no longer numbered V-TP :lol:, but RM-313 (In fact is the *V*ariante de *T*orre *P*acheco, Torre Pacheco bypass).


Yes, i know that... but always will be V-TP. :lol:


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## Peines

verreme said:


> Yes. Roads property of regional government of Andalucía are also called A-XXX, and this includes motorways too, except, of course, A-92, A-92G and A-92N. In Aragón there is the same story, although its only regional motorway has its own prefix.


As far as I know... Andalucia, Murcia and Aragon still uses the old radial numbers for N-XXX C-XXX / C-XXXX class roads (Comarcales)... bur they chaged the C to A: A-XXX (RM-XXX for Murcia).


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## Boltzman

Peines said:


> No mention of the A-91, just a part of A-92N motorway. And the A-92 number comes from Expo'92 :bash:


First of all, A-92 is named after the year 1492, it was planned to open in 1992 but only the Seville-Baza stretch was opened. From Baza there are two branches, A-92N wich was finished in 1998 (I think) and A-92 proper towrads Almería, which was finished ten years after their expected date. It ends sharply in an roundabout instead of lanes incorporating into A-7.

The A-92 motorway was built over old N-342, which crossed more than one region so it had to be managed by the national government; but the national and the regional governmets reached an agreement, so they cut the N-342 into two pieces, the regional border being the cutting point. Since the road is owned by different organisms and due to the fact that A-92 was built several years before the remaining stretch to the A-7 in Murcia, when finally this tretch was built they decide to name it A-91 as it couldn't be A-92, because it was already working. The A-91 itself is rather short, just about 20 km.



verreme said:


> Yes. Roads property of regional government of Andalucía are also called A-XXX, and this includes motorways too, except, of course, A-92, A-92G and A-92N.


You missed the A-92M too (some 26 km long).


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## -Pino-

ChrisZwolle said:


> I don't think the 3-digit system for autovías will really work. They are harder to remember and indicate a minor route, while a lot of autovías with current autonomous region numbering are rather long, often 20 - 40 kilometers, somtimes longer. Routes with such a distance in for example France and Germany almost never get 3-digit numbers.


Problem is that Spain awarded 2-digit numbers to a lot of routes that would have been awarded 3-digit numbers in France and Germany.

In terms of motorway network, France, Germany and Spain are to a large degree comparable. In France and Germany, they have been perfectly capable of awarding the numbers 1 to 99 to the routes with the largest national importance and 100 to 999 to the motorways with minor national importance. I simply don't buy the argument that Spain needs more than 99 for its primary national routes and more than 899 for its secondary routes. Accordingly, I don't buy the argument either that regional prefixes are a must because otherwise the route numbers are getting too long and too difficult to remember.

But it does require a complete overhaul in order to get there. You need to define zones VII to IX (and redefine zones I to VI accordingly), select those 99 primary motorways out of all the actual and planned routes that are out there, select up to 899 secondary routes out of all the actual and planned routes that are out there and only then you can start awarding regional route numbers. I don't care whether any of the primary and secondary route numbers cover routes operated by regional or local government: if it's got national importance, it gets a national number. If it's got local importance only, it gets a local number.

As Spain is in economic difficulty, I am happy not to charge for this bit of free advice :cheers:


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## Peines

-Pino- said:


> Problem is that Spain awarded 2-digit numbers to a lot of routes that would have been awarded 3-digit numbers in France and Germany.
> 
> In terms of motorway network, France, Germany and Spain are to a large degree comparable. In France and Germany, they have been perfectly capable of awarding the numbers 1 to 99 to the routes with the largest national importance and 100 to 999 to the motorways with minor national importance. I simply don't buy the argument that Spain needs more than 99 for its primary national routes and more than 899 for its secondary routes. Accordingly, I don't buy the argument either that regional prefixes are a must because otherwise the route numbers are getting too long and too difficult to remember.
> 
> But it does require a complete overhaul in order to get there. *You need to define zones VII to IX (and redefine zones I to VI accordingly)*, select those 99 primary motorways out of all the actual and planned routes that are out there, select up to 899 secondary routes out of all the actual and planned routes that are out there and only then you can start awarding regional route numbers. I don't care whether any of the primary and secondary route numbers cover routes operated by regional or local government: if it's got national importance, it gets a national number. If it's got local importance only, it gets a local number.
> 
> As Spain is in economic difficulty, I am happy not to charge for this bit of free advice :cheers:


Maybe like this...








...?


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## alserrod

verreme said:


> Yes. Roads property of regional government of Andalucía are also called A-XXX, and this includes motorways too, except, of course, A-92, A-92G and A-92N. In Aragón there is the same story, although its only regional motorway has its own prefix.




ARA-A-1, only 5,5 km motorway but it is the only bridge over a river in almost 40 km


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## OriK

I think that the regional scheme makes it clearer and is avoiding using 3 digit numbers in A- motorways...

When you go through M-50 you know that it has a regional scope inside the Madrid region, in France or Germany it would have a 3 digit number, but I think that this system provides more information* keeping the names of the roads short...

*M-50 means:
M adrid
5 th
0 ring


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## -Pino-

If you want short route numbers, you should permit every municipality to signpost its own numbers. You'll always be on single-digit roads! But no route numbering system works without a degree of continuity. A trip over primary roads of national importance should go over roads with a national number of one or two digits. That's a form of continuity given to road users all over the world, except in Spain.

What regions subsequently do in numbering their routes that are not of national importance, I don't really mind.


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## alserrod

OriK said:


> I think that the regional scheme makes it clearer and is avoiding using 3 digit numbers in A- motorways...
> 
> When you go through M-50 you know that it has a regional scope inside the Madrid region, in France or Germany it would have a 3 digit number, but I think that this system provides more information* keeping the names of the roads short...
> 
> *M-50 means:
> M adrid
> 5 th
> 0 ring





For all drivers, same system for all cities. 
The letter o letters will mean the city. In case of province capital, it is the administrative letter. In other cases, they have "invented" specific letters for other cities.

And if ends in 0 it is a ring

In my city, Z-30 is an inner ring with a street use overall and 50 limit, and the Z-40 (very close in some points) is a motorway with 120 limit.


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## alserrod

-Pino- said:


> If you want short route numbers, you should permit every municipality to signpost its own numbers. You'll always be on single-digit roads! But no route numbering system works without a degree of continuity. A trip over primary roads of national importance should go over roads with a national number of one or two digits. That's a form of continuity given to road users all over the world, except in Spain.
> 
> What regions subsequently do in numbering their routes that are not of national importance, I don't really mind.




In Spain... national roads are managed by central government and have the same number than criteria approved in the 1940s. Rest of roads are managed by regional government, all of them with own criteria, but talking always as a secondary network.

But... about main network, there are more than 100 national roads (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Carreteras_nacionales_de_España). That makes impossible to use only two digits.

In any case, in my opinion it will be important to have "normal roads", not one after another one... and you have in one corner a first digit absolutelly different that could make confussion (only to those drivers who take care about that, most of them do not know or do not pay care) only because the road started far away.


My city is crossed by the N-232 which has the km. 0 at Vinaroz, in the Mediterranean coast and ends at Santander in the Cantabric sea.

They are really three different roads. Vinaroz-Zaragoza is used mainly for local or regional trips, Zaragoza-Logroño is almost one of the most used in Spain, specially for trucks (it has a very intense truck traffic). Logroño-Vinaroz... only for regional traffic and will need a refurbishment.

The few streches as a motorway are pointed with A-68 only because the AP-68 is Bilbao-Zaragoza (and the tolled motorway has the km.0 in the Cantabric and the free one will have it in the Mediterranean).

Today there are only 10 km from Zaragoza to Mediterranean of A-68. Far away is N-232, one lane only... but they consider always the km.0 in the Mediterranean.

And more... a lot of traffic starts at Zaragoza or it is a car/truck that coming from other road joins there at Zaragoza. 
Should you listen in the radio about an incidence in the kilometre 2XX in the N-232.... is it before or after Zaragoza? This is... in which direction?. In Madrid it is easy because one road, one number. In Barcelona, the same (only the AP-7 could make confussion), in a lot of major cities similar, even because the coast makes starting there roads or because other things. At Zaragoza is absolutely a chaos.

And... more... going by the motorway ring, the A-68 is pointed as "Alcañiz- CASTELLON". Take a look how to go from Zaragoza to Castellon, the time to take by the N-232 (have a look in Street view near "Monroyo") to Castellon and by the A-23 (direction Valencia and taking direction Castellon later). It is similar distance but free motorway Vs a road that needs refurbishments.

No local driver use it to go to Castellon... but the signals say that.

The most intelligence change would be to take the N-232 and "cut" it in three different roads. Until Zaragoza and until Logroño (and until Santander)... but that will multiply for three the number of roads if we make similar in other ones.

In summary... three digits are neccesary only because number of roads and a new numeration criteria is needed


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## verreme

Peines said:


> As far as I know... Andalucia, Murcia and Aragon still uses the old radial numbers for N-XXX C-XXX / C-XXXX class roads (Comarcales)... bur they chaged the C to A: A-XXX (RM-XXX for Murcia).


Yup, they use the same system, but with their own prefixes. If all regions did that, our country would definitely be easier to navigate through. But some of them chose otherwise.



Boltzman said:


> You missed the A-92M too (some 26 km long).


Yes, I did. And I have traveled it several times. Total crap of motorway, I must say, like very much of the A-92 network.



-Pino- said:


> As Spain is in economic difficulty, I am happy not to charge for this bit of free advice :cheers:


Thank you so much for your sympathy :lol:



OriK said:


> I think that the regional scheme makes it clearer and is avoiding using 3 digit numbers in A- motorways...
> 
> When you go through M-50 you know that it has a regional scope inside the Madrid region, in France or Germany it would have a 3 digit number, but I think that this system provides more information* keeping the names of the roads short...
> 
> *M-50 means:
> M adrid
> 5 th
> 0 ring


Calling it A-100 would make more sense if the main purpose was to tell motorways apart from ordinary roads, which is what I would like.


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## alserrod

verreme said:


> Calling it A-100 would make more sense if the main purpose was to tell motorways apart from ordinary roads, which is what I would like.



There are too many motorways like this one. All major and medium cities have one or more. Ring motorways end in 0. The rest of ones can be just connections between other motorways in the metropolitan area and they have a numeration according to the city.


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## aswnl

alserrod said:


> But... about main network, there are more than 100 national roads (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Carreteras_nacionales_de_España). That makes impossible to use only two digits.


Perhaps there are to many national roads ? Redefine the national network. Perhaps numbered national routes which could have one routenumber over quit a distance nowadays have 2, 3 or even more roadnumbers. Well, then the number of roadnumbers can decrease without having the need to decommission roads to lower authorities.

For example: when introducing the NL national numbering in 1976, it turned out that the national roads 2, 26, 64 and 75 together would form the A2. That's why there's no A26, A64 or A75 in NL. You could think of anything similar in Spain. Why should all national roadnumbers lead to Madrid and not be extended beyond ?

Zoning of road numbers is just fun for roadgeeks. For motorists it just is fine to navigate long distances on easy numbers.


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## alserrod

A little of history...

In the 18th century they made the six radial roads. Only them. They were prepared to send royal post to every corner of Spain. Taking this roads, most of territory is not far. There are points easily to arrive or far away but it was useful then.

Later they try to use a criteria based on those six roads. The main six roads numbered with Roman numbers (N-I to N-VI. You will never see N-1 to N-6 or similar...). Rest of them three digits according wih the criteria I said.

Today the number of roads is to big and we had some of them over 1000 km (or near them) and other ones of less than 10 km!!!!.

the ministry could take another criteria considering also the two digits roads.

In that case my proposal would be to take the "real long distance roads" and use two digits for them and the rest of them using three digits.

I would propose in the Spanish thread about this when I will have time to see feedback of other forumers.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Looks nice! I like the forest of lampposts


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## ilyan

When some sections A-66, A-65, A-67 should be finished? Some section A-66 by north of Sevilla, near Salamanca and Zamora u/c (section Zamora-Benavente planned),A-65 in total distance between Benavente and Palencia and A-67 between Palencia and Acquilar de Campoo and short section near Reinosa u/c?
When do you plan to finish border section of A-62 conection with portuguese A-4?


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## verreme

A-65 is a mere project which construction will not start in the near future. As for A-67, it is complete between Palencia and Santander. Construction of the only missing section of A-62 (the connection with the Portuguese motorway) is halted for some years, and A-66 Benavente-Zamora was tendered last year; don't know if construction has already started.


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## ajch

ilyan said:


> When some sections A-66, A-65, A-67 should be finished? Some section A-66 by north of Sevilla, near Salamanca and Zamora u/c (section Zamora-Benavente planned),A-65 in total distance between Benavente and Palencia and A-67 between Palencia and Acquilar de Campoo and short section near Reinosa u/c?
> When do you plan to finish border section of A-62 conection with portuguese A-4?


A-66, is complete between Seville and Zamora, between Zamora and Benavente is in works. in Salamanca i think is needed a better link between A-66 and A-62 (now is a roundabout as you can see here http://goo.gl/maps/AtGX0)

A-67 is finished (no confirmed by me but other forumers have drive it)

motorway between benavente and Palencia (A-65?): no idea, but i doubt it will be build in a near future (no money)

A-62 at the portuguese border: no idea


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## ChrisZwolle

A-67 has been completed since July 2009.


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## ilyan

verreme said:


> A-65 is a mere project which construction will not start in the near future. As for A-67, it is complete between Palencia and Santander. Construction of the only missing section of A-62 (the connection with the Portuguese motorway) is halted for some years, and A-66 Benavente-Zamora was tendered last year; don't know if construction has already started.


 1)Ok and what about A-23 between Valencia and Zaragoza all sections had been completed?
2)Sections of AP-7 between Cartagena and Vera and sections of A-7 between Malaga and Almeria still u/c?
3) What about motorway A-50 between Salamanca and Avila it's in construction or planned?


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## ChrisZwolle

A-23 was completed in 2008 (Valencia - Zaragoza) and A-50 was completed in 2009.


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## verreme

Cartagena-Vera was also finished like 5 years ago, maybe even more. As for A-7 in Almería province, there are some stretches where works are halted or progressing very slowly. Google Street View shows what has opened so far.


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## verreme

A video of C-16 from Barcelona (Via Augusta) to Terrassa. It features a three-lane tunnel with a reversible lane, a 110 km/h speed limit (very uncommon in Spain) and a lot of other tunnels going through densely populated areas.






Watch in HD!


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## ilyan

verreme said:


> Cartagena-Vera was also finished like 5 years ago, maybe even more. As for A-7 in Almería province, there are some stretches where works are halted or progressing very slowly. Google Street View shows what has opened so far.


Ok. In Spain were lot of motorway projects in 2008 in u/c and in plan
1) What about A-54 between Santiago and Lugo?
2) A-76 between Orense and Ponferrado?
3) A-12 between Burgos and Pamplona?
4) A-11 between Valladolid and Goria?
5) A-15 between Goria and Medinacceli?
6) AP-15 between Goria and intersection with AP-68?
7) A-40 between Maguecia and Teruel? 
8) A-32 between Albacete and Bailen?


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## verreme

1) Some stretches are U/C, but the pace of works is very slow. The only operational stretch is SC-20 - Santiago airport.
2) No news, and not likely to be built in the near future.
3) Open except for Logroño-Burgos. Only one or two bypasses are operational between these cities.
4) Only Tordesillas - Zamora (including Zamora bypass), Eastern access to Valladolid and El Burgo de Osma bypass are open. There may be other short stretches, but I don't exactly remember how many and where. Other ones are U/C, but works are either halted or progressing at a very slow pace.
5) Fully open except for Medinaceli - Radona and Almazán - Sauquillo del Campo.
6) Soria - AP-68 is not likely to be built in the near future. Projects are ready in the part of the motorway running through Navarran territory, but they have not been tendered yet.
7) Maqueda - Toledo (including Toledo bypass) is open except for a short stretch; same for Ocaña - Cuenca. Cuenca - Teruel will not possibly be built at all.
8) Most of it is U/C, except two older stretches at both ends.


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## CNGL

ilyan said:


> 4) A-11 between Valladolid and Goria?
> 5) A-15 between Goria and Medinacceli?
> 6) AP-15 between Goria and intersection with AP-68?
> 7) A-40 between Maguecia and Teruel?


Goria? Maguecia? I guess you should mean Soria and Maqueda . Anyway, verreme has already answered you. But AP-15 Soria-Tudela has been renumbered to A-15 (It will be toll free if built).


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## ChrisZwolle

Apparently this interchange opened in Curro, Galicia. It connects AG-41 with PO-531.


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## ChrisZwolle

Nice video of the main road of Menorca Island.


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## Penn's Woods

^^Is that thing in the lower left the route marker?


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## Peines

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Is that thing in the lower left the route marker?


Fortunately not…

EDIT: http://goo.gl/maps/DWN4X

White over Green.


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## Penn's Woods

^^It did seem...abnormally creative for a European route marker.


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## verreme

^^ Bearing in mind that we use hyphens in European route numbers, it does not seem that creative.


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## verreme

A video of the first toll motorway in Spain, current C-31 and C-32 from Barcelona to Mataró. It opened in 1969:






This started a long love-hate relationship with toll roads in Spain


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## Penn's Woods

verreme said:


> ^^ Bearing in mind that we use hyphens in European route numbers, it does not seem that creative.


I was referring to that...thing...above the number.


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## Vignole

^^

That's the Seal of Menorca:


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## ilyan

Ok let's continue with spanish motorway projects. Many projects were in Catalonia
1)What destiny of A-26?
2) C-25 between A-2 and A-7? 
3) A-7 near Gerona?
4) C-16 to Berga?
5) A-7 near Tarragona?
Many projects were in other parts of country
1) A-31 Between Allicante and Novelda?
2) A-44 between Granda and Motrill?
3) A-316?
4) AP-18 next to Malaga?
5)A-4 in service in total distance between Sevila and Jerez?
6) Destiny of A-47, A-58 and border section A-11 unclear?
7) A-43?
8)AP-36 and AP-41?
9) AG-56, AG-55, AG-64?
10) A-54 and A-56?
11) short section AP-53 near Orence?
12) Cl-631?
13) A-63 between Oviedo and Le Espina?
14) A-22 between Lerida and Huesca?
15) A-14?


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## CNGL

ilyan said:


> Ok let's continue with spanish motorway projects. Many projects were in Catalonia
> 1)What destiny of A-26? Destiny? Anyway, between Figueres and Besalú works haven't started yet, from there to Olot is done.
> 2) C-25 between A-2 and A-2, or E15/AP-7? Works in progress, hopefully will open next year.
> 3) A-2 near Gerona? Works are stopped from Tordera to Caldes de Malavella, from there to Girona is open.
> 4) C-16 to Berga? Done. Berga sounds like "verga" which is vulgar Spanish for "dick" hehe
> 5) A-7 near Tarragona? From Vandellós to Altafulla is done (Vila-seca and Tarragona bypasses have been there for many years). From Altafulla northeastward, nothing.
> Many projects were in other parts of country
> 1) A-31 Between Alicante and Novelda? Maybe reconstruction works? Because that autovía has been there since the 80s.
> 2) A-44 between Granda and Motril? Open. For me is E902.
> 3) A-316? And A-318 . AFAIK only Martos to Mancha Real is open.
> 4) AP-46 next to Malaga? There is no AP-18, but once there was a A-18 which is now part of C-16. Maybe you refer to AP-46 which is open.
> 5)A-4 in service in total distance between Seville and Jerez? Nothing. Only between Seville and "Two Sisters" (Dos Hermanas).
> 6) Destiny of A-47, A-58 and border section A-11 unclear? A-47 nothing, Zamora-Portugal section of A-11 nothing. A-58 is done, it's Trujillo-Cáceres and no need to extend it westwards.
> 7) A-43? Merida-Puertollano still unclear, Ciudad Real-"knooppunt" Atalaya is open.
> 8)AP-36 and AP-41? Both are open. But trust me, they should haven't built AP-41... Oh, South of Toledo, no AP-41 will be built due to enviromental reasons.
> 9) AG-56, AG-55, AG-64? All of them are open. But I've heard they are extending AG-56 from Brion to Noia and AG-55 from Carballo to Cee.
> 10) A-54 and A-56? Both are under costruction.
> 11) short section AP-53 near Orense? Open as AG-53.
> 12) Cl-631? Open from Ponferrada to Toreno, from there to Villablino remains a regular road. The autovía section is also CL-631, pfew, because they have A-231 León-Burgos which is the same number as a road in Eastern Aragon.
> 13) A-63 between Oviedo and La Espina? I'm sure is opened all the way to Grado, don't know further. At least I know it's U/C.
> 14) A-22 between Lerida and Huesca? Siétamo-Huesca has not started works yet :bash:, otherwise is all open.
> 15) A-14? This also falls in Catalonia section, because the only open section (from nowhere to nowhere) and the U/C sections are there. In Aragon, nothing.


Here are the answers and spelling corrections.


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## verreme

Just to point that out:

- A-316 is U/C from Baeza to Mancha Real. Works are visible in Google Earth. Úbeda-Baeza is open for traffic.
- AG-56 reaches Noia as a two-lane expressway, which opened last year.
- Most of A-54 is U/C; there are no works in A-56. Projects are ready though.
- There are no U/C sections in A-14. Only one stretch opened this year, which goes actually from nowhere to nowhere further.


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## verreme

A video of C-17 from Barcelona to Vic. Only the last half is classified as a motorway; the first one is a dual-carriageway road. A stretch of it opened in the late 50s and was called "Autopista de La Ametlla", making it one of the first motorways in Spain.






Watch in HD!


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## Vignole

First 20 pics of Motorway R-2 (Radial 2) of Madrid:


R-2 01 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 02 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 03 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 04 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 05 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 06 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 07 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 08 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 09 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 10 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 11 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 12 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 13 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 14 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 15 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 16 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 17 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 18 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 19 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 20 by Vignole, on Flickr


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## Vignole

Part II


R-2 21 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 22 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 23 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 24 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 25 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 26 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 27 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 28 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 29 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 30 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 31 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 32 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 33 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 34 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 35 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 36 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 37 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 38 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 39 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 40 by Vignole, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

Nice photos. I was wondering why no Spanish forum members appear to take photos of their highways, they're often quite photogenic.


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## Vignole

Thanks, I just want to notice how empties are these inner tolled motorways of Spain, most of them in bankrupt.


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## OriK

Maybe because we are used to drive the same motorways always and they don't seem photogenic to us but boring hahahahaha

I'll try to make some photos to show (or a video as it's easier while I'm driving alone)  I'd love to show you the AP-41 but I only drive it at nights (because it's free).


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## Vignole

Part III


R-2 41 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 42 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 43 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 44 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 45 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 46 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 47 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 48 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 49 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 50 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 51 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 52 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 53 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 54 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 55 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 56 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 57 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 58 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 59 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 60 by Vignole, on Flickr


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## Vignole

OriK said:


> Maybe because we are used to drive the same motorways always and they don't seem photogenic to us but boring hahahahaha
> 
> I'll try to make some photos to show (or a video as it's easier while I'm driving alone)  I'd love to show you the AP-41 but I only drive it at nights (because it's free).


I've paid to go from Madrid to Toledo through AP-41. Nobody overtook me and I didn't overtake any vehicle!! You'll see...


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## Vignole

Last part of R-2


R-2 61 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 62 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 63 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 64 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 65 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 66 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 67 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 68 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 69 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 70 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 71 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 72 by Vignole, on Flickr


R-2 73 by Vignole, on Flickr


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## verreme

Nice. I see you also took pictures of the "inner" part of R-2, between M-50 of M-40. Its good to see such a pristine motorway. Shame it wasn't necessary at all. When roadworks at A-2 are ready, nobody is going to choose R-2.


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## Vignole

Yeah, and this "inner" section has an open toll system, with 2 toll pazas separated only by 3.9 km!


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## Vignole

More pics. Now shadow-tolled motorway M-45 from exit 19 to exit 2:


M-45 01 by Vignole, on Flickr


M-45 02 by Vignole, on Flickr


M-45 03 by Vignole, on Flickr


M-45 04 by Vignole, on Flickr


M-45 05 by Vignole, on Flickr


M-45 06 by Vignole, on Flickr


M-45 07 by Vignole, on Flickr


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## Peines

The new box design for the *M-45* (an anther M-XXX road from Madrid region) with that big "M" in red and numbers in Arial Black (I'm pretty sure they can be Helvetica Blood or Black) *are horrible*, like a _pain in the ass_ or _drive along Struma Hwy_. :crazy:


M-45 01 by Vignole, on Flickr

And, one question… *Is Madrid the only region where we can find ABC exits…?* I never seen more than AB exits outside Madrid.


M-45 04 by Vignole, on Flickr


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## Penn's Woods

Those signs are very...colorful.

What's "shadow-tolled" mean?


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## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> What's "shadow-tolled" mean?


It's a road under concession, but the tolls are paid via taxes indirectly. The road is operated like any other toll road, but there is no physical toll collection. Just a bunch of camerars counting vehicles and sending bills to the government.

The upside of shadow tolls is that the government is able to construct new roads during budget cuts, because the costs are spread out. The downside is that it creates a long-term burden on road expenses. It's a common way to finance roads in for instance Portugal and the United Kingdom, but also Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium, and probably more countries.


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## CNGL

Peines said:


> And, one question… *Is Madrid the only region where we can find ABC exits…?* I never seen more than AB exits outside Madrid.


On the N-330 (Former E07) in Zaragoza, at the interchange with E90/Z-40: http://goo.gl/maps/IgR0d. And on the E90/Z-40 in the same interchange there was another one, but I believe they have removed it with the widening.


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## miliar

Vignole said:


> Part II
> 
> 
> R-2 36 by Vignole, on Flickr


 It looks like there isn’t any manual booth on toll plazas along *R-2* motorway anymore, in order to reduce operating costs. So, toll fares can’t be paid with cash, only credit cards or the electronic toll-collection system are allowed, at least for some hours a day. Am I wrong?










By the way, toll rates have gone up today on all Spanish toll roads as a result of a new VAT increment.

Regards.


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## OriK

miliar said:


> It looks like there isn’t any manual booth on toll plazas along *R-2* motorway anymore, in order to reduce operating costs. So, toll fares can’t be paid with cash, only credit cards or the electronic toll-collection system are allowed, at least for some hours a day. Am I wrong?
> 
> By the way, toll rates have gone up today on all Spanish toll roads as a result of a new VAT increment.
> 
> Regards.


That's only to say to the drivers what those symbols mean... but I agree, it's quite confusing...

As you can see in the following photo you can also choose MANUAL.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7881913530/


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## miliar

OriK said:


> That's only to say to the drivers what those symbols mean... but I agree, it's quite confusing...
> 
> As you can see in the following photo you can also choose MANUAL.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7881913530/


Thanks. I didn't realized ...hno: The sign only refers to ETC and credit-card lanes, although there are manual booths too. Anyway, this change is a bit suspicious.


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## Vignole

Another question of that pic. Why if you go to Madrid Norte it says "aeropuerto" and to Madrid Sur it appears an icon of an airplane?


----------



## Peines

^^

It's a trap.

Left Aeropuerto (toll).
Right Aeropuerto (non-toll).

:nuts:


----------



## miliar

^^










Right, there are two ways if you want to go to the airport. I think that R-2/M-12 alternative is worthy to arrive to T4 terminal, and A-2/M-14 is better to go to the other terminals.

New T4 terminal is quite far away from the other terminals, so that sometimes it is difficult to follow guide signs towards the airport. :nuts:


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## alserrod

All toll areas must have at least one person for any incident or problem to pay, as well as it must be possible to pay with a ticket.

Other way is that you will find too many cabins and no people there. But it must be a person for giving tickets if system breaks down and for the payment also if system breaks down or just for paying in cahs.

In exits with little traffic it is usual that the only one person is in the cabin located in the middle. He will be only for payment. Cars entering the motorway will take automatically the ticket, but should it fails, he will be able to open a window and giving in hand one per one the ticket.

I've used all the exits in the Aragonese part of AP-2 and some of them have really few, few, few traffic... but they never avoid to have one person there.

It is said that depending on working shifts, you can use the time between cars to study something or reading a lot of books.


----------



## arriaca

miliar said:


> ^^
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right, there are two ways if you want to go to the airport. I think that R-2/M-12 alternative is worthy to arrive to T4 terminal, and A-2/M-14 is better to go to the other terminals.
> 
> New T4 terminal is quite far away from the other terminals, so that sometimes it is difficult to follow guide signs towards the airport. :nuts:


With decreasing retentions Madrid accesses do not need to drive on the tollway "Radiales". 

R-2/M-50 to Airport T1 (Tollway) 22,6 km http://goo.gl/maps/zJ1iv

R-2/M-50 to Airport T4 (Tollway) 17,7 km http://goo.gl/maps/Jk1Jw

R-2/M-50 to Airport T1 (Freeway) 17,5 km http://goo.gl/maps/uj90S

R-2/M-50 to Airport T4 (Freeway) 22,5 km http://goo.gl/maps/9pbEJ


----------



## miliar

alserrod said:


> All toll areas must have at least one person for any incident or problem to pay, as well as it must be possible to pay with a ticket.
> 
> Other way is that you will find too many cabins and no people there. But it must be a person for giving tickets if system breaks down and for the payment also if system breaks down or just for paying in cahs.
> 
> In exits with little traffic it is usual that the only one person is in the cabin located in the middle. He will be only for payment. Cars entering the motorway will take automatically the ticket, but should it fails, he will be able to open a window and giving in hand one per one the ticket.
> 
> I've used all the exits in the Aragonese part of AP-2 and some of them have really few, few, few traffic... but they never avoid to have one person there.
> 
> It is said that depending on working shifts, you can use the time between cars to study something or reading a lot of books.


This is usual in Spain, but not everywhere. As an example, there aren't manual booths at night on Dulles Toll Road (VA SR 267), the highway that allows to go to Washington international airport.

_"*Full Service*: These lanes have toll booths. The Main Plaza along the Toll Road is staffed 24/7 and the Ramp Plazas are staffed from 5:30am until 9:30pm. Cash, exact change, E-ZPass and E-ZPass Flex are accepted. If you have exact change, you may place it directly in the collection machine. After staffed hours, this lane becomes Exact Change and exact fare is required". _ :nuts:

http://www.metwashairports.com/tollroad/1145.htm

Perhaps there is somebody in the office and you can call him if you have a problem, but there is nobody in the booth.


----------



## miliar

arriaca said:


> With decreasing retentions Madrid accesses do not need to drive on the tollway "Radiales".
> 
> R-2/M-50 to Airport T1 (Tollway) 22,6 km http://goo.gl/maps/zJ1iv
> 
> R-2/M-50 to Airport T4 (Tollway) 17,7 km http://goo.gl/maps/Jk1Jw
> 
> R-2/M-50 to Airport T1 (Freeway) 17,5 km http://goo.gl/maps/uj90S
> 
> R-2/M-50 to Airport T4 (Freeway) 22,5 km http://goo.gl/maps/9pbEJ


OK. I assume that if I'm driving along R-2, there is heavy traffic on A-2. Of course, it's one's decision.

R-2/M-50 to Airport T4 (Tollway) 17,7 km, 13 min, 1,00 + 0,95 = 1,95 € (rush hour)

R-2/M-50 to Airport T4 (Freeway) 22,5 km, 19 min, 0,00 €

[Toll fares from Taracena (A-2) to M-50 (southbound) amount 5,70 €]


----------



## Peines

^^

From A-2 km 64 to T4:

- Via R-2: 61km & 00:37h (TOLL).
- Via A-2 + M-14 : 59km & 00:46h (FREE).


----------



## RV

AADT on AP-41 is *below 1000*...


----------



## arriaca

miliar said:


> OK. I assume that if I'm driving along R-2, there is heavy traffic on A-2. Of course, it's one's decision.
> 
> R-2/M-50 to Airport T4 (Tollway) 17,7 km, 13 min, 1,00 + 0,95 = 1,95 € (rush hour)
> 
> R-2/M-50 to Airport T4 (Freeway) 22,5 km, 19 min, 0,00 €
> 
> [Toll fares from Taracena (A-2) to M-50 (southbound) amount 5,70 €]





Peines said:


> ^^
> 
> From A-2 km 64 to T4:
> 
> - Via R-2: 61km & 00:37h (TOLL).
> - Via A-2 + M-14 : 59km & 00:46h (FREE).


With new works by improving the A2, which are about to end, the only reason to go to the airport by the R2 is avoid traffic jams, and with the decline of traffic there is very little. In terms of time, there is little difference, and I think it's easier to use the A2 (plus you avoid the passage of three toll booths, both Taracena as if you use another entry)


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## Peines

^^ plus going thru A-2 you will spend less gas: Every stop (every toll plaza) is more gas consumption.

So, by toll motorway you pay extra for the toll and extra for stop the car. :nuts:


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## miliar

^^

Some statistics about traffic jams throughout the metropolitan area of Madrid at rush hours by RACC (Catalonian Drivers Association).

Average traffic speed at different hours of the day:









http://imagenes.racc.es/pub/ficheros/adjuntos/adjuntos_estudio_congestion_webb_jzq_9adadbd7.pdf

And a friendlier version of the traffic congestion map at different hours of the day:

http://www.elpais.com/static/portadas/mapa/trafico.html

According to this document, users of *A-2* spend a mean value of 16,1 minutes a day due to congestion. Only *A-42* and beltways would be worse. However, at rush hour (8 to 9 AM) they spend 48 minutes. In this case only East section of *M-30* is worse.

I imagine that this situation is now better as the analysis was carried out three years ago. Meanwhile, AADT has decreased and some works are adding a new lane on this highway from Torrejon de Ardoz to Guadalajara. Anyway, there are still traffic jams westbound at the junction with routes *M-40* and *M-14*, because so many drivers want to take this exit and there is only one exit lane. I have some workmates who live along this route and they have some problems at rush hours. I would not underestimate congestion on *A-2*.


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## OriK

^^ in A-42 it is much better now, but I wonder what will happen when the ecconomy starts to grow again as the public transportation hasn't been improved at all... but probably the commuter train network in Illescas will arrive earlier than the recovery 

I think the solution to the jams in Madrid are macro-parkings near those roads with a good connection to the public transportation network...


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## Peines

^^ Do you mean *Park'n'ride*...?


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## arriaca

miliar said:


> ^^
> 
> Some statistics about traffic jams throughout the metropolitan area of Madrid at rush hours by RACC (Catalonian Drivers Association).
> 
> Average traffic speed at different hours of the day:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://imagenes.racc.es/pub/ficheros/adjuntos/adjuntos_estudio_congestion_webb_jzq_9adadbd7.pdf
> 
> And a friendlier version of the traffic congestion map at different hours of the day:
> 
> http://www.elpais.com/static/portadas/mapa/trafico.html
> 
> According to this document, users of *A-2* spend a mean value of 16,1 minutes a day due to congestion. Only *A-42* and beltways would be worse. However, at rush hour (8 to 9 AM) they spend 48 minutes. In this case only East section of *M-30* is worse.
> 
> I imagine that this situation is now better as the analysis was carried out three years ago. Meanwhile, AADT has decreased and some works are adding a new lane on this highway from Torrejon de Ardoz to Guadalajara. Anyway, there are still traffic jams westbound at the junction with routes *M-40* and *M-14*, because so many drivers want to take this exit and there is only one exit lane. I have some workmates who live along this route and they have some problems at rush hours. I would not underestimate congestion on *A-2*.


Well, you've just chosen the worst possible year. These data are RACC in 2009 just before the crisis. Since then traffic has fallen in a brutal way. Literally every morning no jams. Although slow-running sections. But I doubt, involving more than five minutes on a journey with little traffic. It makes me very sad decline that has occurred. And now they are being solved points where withholding occurred.


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## ChrisZwolle

Traffic is a good barometer of the economy.


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## OriK

Peines said:


> ^^ Do you mean *Park'n'ride*...?


Exactly, that's what i mean... I understand that I live in a small town and it isn't possible to have a frequent public transport service to everywhere... (although it could be better) but there are tons of small towns like me and those P+R should be a must....


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## verreme

OriK said:


> Exactly, that's what i mean... I understand that I live in a small town and it isn't possible to have a frequent public transport service to everywhere... (although it could be better) but there are tons of small towns like me and those P+R should be a must....


Our urban sprawl patterns make it very difficult to have a really efficient public transport system. Inside cities it is OK, but moving to and from then, and especially between smaller cities in big metro areas, is slow and unefficient.


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## ChrisZwolle

Public transport is generally slow, even in the cities. What counts are door-to-door travel times, not station-to-station where many politicians focus on. Madrid has a gigantic subway network as you probably know.

I'd rather be car-dependent than public transport-dependent.


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## Peines

ChrisZwolle said:


> Public transport is generally slow, even in the cities. *What counts are door-to-door travel times, not station-to-station where many politicians focus on.* Madrid has a gigantic subway network as you probably know.
> 
> I'd rather be car-dependent than public transport-dependent.


Exactly. :applause:

There's a lot of Indrustial & Service zones (Offices, Shopping Centers, etc, etc…) in Madrid Area wich are not connected to the Metro/Tram/Cercanias system but you can access quickly by you own car.


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## alserrod

I was working in one of them for a little more than one month. I hate so much traffic congestion that I parked my car in the nearest commuter train station. Time going to that station was the same in the morning as well as there was too mucha congestion and frequencies were about 15 minutes per train.

While the week when I got off the office I parked the car close to the station and returned on train. On fridays I used my car to go home because I knew I will use it on weekend

But... how many people do it?


PS. One forumer wrote something like this near Zaragoza and it is a very important merit because the person who made it (he had a motorcycle) had only six trains per day, but timetables were nice for him and preferred to go by train and just two km. in moto at the end.


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## OriK

verreme said:


> Our urban sprawl patterns make it very difficult to have a really efficient public transport system. Inside cities it is OK, but moving to and from then, and especially between smaller cities in big metro areas, is slow and unefficient.


Yes that's why I think there should be places to concentrate the traffic in order to make efficient the transport system.

And in the cities it's much more difficult to organize it... because the population is sprawl in all directions, but towns are generally organized in corridors... the problem is the density of the population... and the transversal trips...



ChrisZwolle said:


> Public transport is generally slow, even in the cities. What counts are door-to-door travel times, not station-to-station where many politicians focus on. Madrid has a gigantic subway network as you probably know.
> 
> I'd rather be car-dependent than public transport-dependent.


Yes... the problem is that driving to some areas involve at least 30 minutes of parking or unaffordable expenses... and for the station-to-station time you only have to add the walking (or even cycling) time from station to door...

Furthermore the train is often faster than the car from door-to-door even with no traffic or parking issues. You cannot pretend to have a train station in every town, but you can pretend to have a station in a near town or small city with a big parking allowing you to transfer.... in fact I'm supposed to have that option but the schedule of the train isn't that good... but from my place to my university... door-to-door without traffic and without parking it takes 25-30 mins by train and 40 mins by car... (and up to 90 mins with traffic and parking problems) and the train is way cheaper.

Generally in Madrid people tend to prefer public transportation, but there are 3 main reasons to not use it...

1) The route is not optimal (the degree of tolerance changes between neighborhood and the total trip time but it generaly means that if it takes 30% longer, the route is not optimal)
2) Door-to-station or station-to-door problems (walking time is too long or it's just far away without an alternative to get there).
3) Incompatible or not competitive schedules.

Furthermore sometimes people don't know their options to get somewhere...

The car is a great transportation method sometimes, but I'd rather be independent than car or public transport dependent.


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## verreme

Do you really think the train is faster door-to-door? I think this is only in short trips inside a big city in rush hours. Where I live it is always slower, no matter the time of the day. Only apocalypthic-like traffic jams would make it actually faster.

Take for example my former workplace, Terminal T1 of Barcelona-El Prat Airport. If I lived in Barcelona (I mean, right in the train station), a train ride there would take me 20 minutes, plus a 10-minute bus trip. With a car you only need 15 minutes to go from the city center to the airport. And I don't actually live in Barcelona city, so it took me 1h30min to get there using public transport, even driving my car to the train station. If I drove instead, I could be in the airport in less than 30 minutes.

And I don't live in the North Pole. It's a reality for millions of people living in Barcelona metro area, and it applies for other Spanish big cities with huge metro areas.


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## Sunfuns

OriK said:


> The car is a great transportation method sometimes, but I'd rather be independent than car or public transport dependent.


Exactly! Great public transportation system doesn't preclude one from also having a car for occasions when using it makes more sense.


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## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> And I don't live in the North Pole. It's a reality for millions of people living in Barcelona metro area, and it applies for other Spanish big cities with huge metro areas.


That is why about 85% of passenger travel in the European Union is by car.


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## Sunfuns

I think we have to understand that even with the best imaginable public transportation system 60-70% of all trips will still be with a car (I believe our number here in Switzerland is about 70%). It will be more than that in rural areas and less in big cities. Nevertheless good public transport is essential, particularly in big cities. It probably would not be pretty if every road in Madrid were to add 30% more traffic.


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## Peines

_Offtopic_: I'm the only one around here who never use public transport…? In fact, I think I have a really a American Lifestyle: to do anything I need the car.


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## arriaca

ChrisZwolle said:


> That is why about 85% of passenger travel in the European Union is by car.


Fortunately, Madrid is a city with a large percentage of public transport users.



> Public transport was the main means of transportation in the inner-city travel in 2010, accounting for 42 percent of all trips. Of this amount, 20.7 percent was held in Metro or light rail, 17.5 percent by bus, 3.3 percent by rail and 0.5 percent in taxi. The walking and cycling accumulated 32 percent of travel, a quarter of all car and motorbike one percent. The displacements of less than 30 minutes drive increased 10.5 percent in the case of journeys on foot and by 7.5 percent in the car. The public transportation during tours of this nature fell four points.
> 
> http://www.madridiario.es/2011/Dici...rafico-coche-aparcamiento-carga-descarga.html


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## geogregor

^^
What do they mean by "the inner-city" travel? 
Even in crazily congested London cars are responsible for almost half the journeys.


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## alserrod

Unfortunatelly, Madrid could have more public transport users that now.

I knew one person this summer who lives in the north and goes to the south for working. She doesn't have parking problem as well as most of journeys are south-north in those hours... but time on car is similar than on public transport.

She lives close to a new commuter station and when she said the problem she had with congestion one day I asked why she didn't use the commuter. She said she need to know timetables and later had to change on train at Atocha.
Yeah... she should have to take two trains and it is not the most direct journey but... time on train is similar that time on car. She doesn't need the metro, just the commuter, must faster!. She lives close to a station and works close to another one. In her home there is a 10 minutes frequency on peak hours (even you do not know the timetables it will be not a long time waiting). Second train to have has a 3 minutes frequency on peak hours (the train with a longest frequency in Spain).

But she still did not consider the public transport...


There will be a lot of people who do not have train home to job, but another number of people who does and do not use.


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## ChrisZwolle

"inner city travel" is only a fraction of metropolitan area travel. In any typical metropolitan area, 80 - 90% of employment is outside the city core.


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'd rather be car-dependent than public transport-dependent.


Sure, but smart people may use both the car and the public transportation system. Especially for daily commuting the public transport may be a good choice fot lots of people - not every one, however. Madrid has many subway lines and the Cercanias system which, too, is very efficient, especially for people that travel for a longer distance between home and working place, and several hundreds of thousands of people use them - and many of them do have a car and use it for shopping, etc.


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> That is why about 85% of passenger travel in the European Union is by car.


Right. And it could be even more if people in poor nations like Hungary, Romaina and Bulgaria had the money for a car. 
However, the situation is quite different in big cities (and as you may know Madrid is one of the biggest ones in the continent). Here below you can see a link to some statistics about transport methods in 75 European citites. Click on the picture for a large version, and then on the UK flag for a legend in English. You'll see that in Madrid public transport ridership is clearly bigger than car usage. 

Source: attus.hu; Click for large picture
Of course there are lots of people whose daily travel doesn't fit to the public transit network. I think no one (except for some railway enthusiasts) want to force them to take the train instead of driving a car every day. A 50-50 split may be quite optimal for such big cities. Basically it means that people that have a school or working place in the center use the public transport and people that don't travel to the center drive a car. The densest a city center is, the more efficient a public transport system may be.


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## Attus

Sunfuns said:


> I think we have to understand that even with the best imaginable public transportation system 60-70% of all trips will still be with a car (I believe our number here in Switzerland is about 70%).


Yeah, and Switzerland has the most efficient public transport system and the highest public transport ridership in Europe, so saying that 70-95% of the motorized (=non walking or cycling) transport is done by car is closer to reality. In such a country like Spain that has a pretty low population density (93/sqkm and even less outside the Madrid and Barcelona metropolitan areas), public transport will never have an important role, except for commuting in the largest cities and the most important intercity lines. 
Subway and Cercanias in and around Madrid, Barcelona, AVE lines of Madrid - Sevilla and Madrid - Barcelona, possibly some local public transport in Sevilla, Alicante, Zaragoza, and that's all. For any other kind of travel, public transportation will always be much less efficient than car so paying much public money for public transport is a wasting of money (of course maintaining some public transport for children, elderly people, etc. is always important in a civilized society).


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## verreme

Peines said:


> _Offtopic_: I'm the only one around here who never use public transport…? In fact, I think I have a really a American Lifestyle: to do anything I need the car.


I don't think this is a good option. Even though much of my driving is for pleasure purposes, I think it's sensible to reduce our energy dependence by using less costly (energetically-wise) transportation. So, I use public transport when I _have_ to go somewhere and I'm not in a hurry.

When I worked at the airport, I used public transport 100% of the days when my schedule made it possible (if I had a night shift I just had to take my car), even if it took me double time to get there.



alserrod said:


> Unfortunatelly, Madrid could have more public transport users that now.
> 
> (...)
> 
> But she still did not consider the public transport...
> 
> 
> There will be a lot of people who do not have train home to job, but another number of people who does and do not use.


True. I also know some. But I don't think those are many. Both our road infrastructure and public transportation are good enough, and if someone's commute has a good public transport offer he or she will definitely not drive to work, because public transport is always cheaper.


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## Peines

verreme said:


> *I don't think this is a good option*. Even though much of my driving is for pleasure purposes, I think it's sensible to reduce our energy dependence by using less costly (energetically-wise) transportation. So, I use public transport when I _have_ to go somewhere and I'm not in a hurry.
> 
> When I worked at the airport, I used public transport 100% of the days when my schedule made it possible (if I had a night shift I just had to take my car), even if it took me double time to get there.


You said you have a option: for me isn't a option use the car.


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## Coccodrillo

Attus said:


> Yeah, and Switzerland has the most efficient public transport system and the highest public transport ridership in Europe, so saying that 70-95% of the motorized (=non walking or cycling) transport is done by car is closer to reality.


In Switzerland in 2011 car accounted for 75% of motorized traffic (both passengers and passengers*km), while trucks accounted for 60% of ton*km (the remaining it's around 39% rail and 1% water and pipelines, excluding transit truck share is 75%).


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## OriK

^^ I think that since few years ago the speed-cam fines are processed automaticly... that means that the speed-cam takes the photo and sends it to the processing center in ¿León? and there a computer recognizes the plate number (without human intervention if possible), checks the cars database and sends a fine notification to the owner (you can choose to receive it by certified mail wich is the default option, electronic mail or I think that even SMS) asking for identify the driver or pay it if the driver was the owner of the car.


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## alserrod

Almost all correct:

- Yes, it is located at Leon (city where last president was born.........)

- System makes it automatically. Not only speed-cam but also agent's fines. They send data and it is processed.

- Default option is... single mail. If you did not answer you will be posted in the official bulletin and notification is done there.

- Entreprises cannot choose mail. Only email. As far as I know, SMS is additional.


- "law" is prepared to make people paying as fast as possible with a 50% reduction.


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## OriK

^^ I didn't change the option and I received one of those "León letters" by certified mail. In fact I think it isn't technically certified but "administrative" but it's the same, the postman has to knock your door and you have to sign a document to receive it... if they can't notify you in this way their publish the notification in the official gazette of the government that issued the fine.

Luckily for me a relative was driving the car  so I said who was driving (by Internet) and they reissued the fine with the correct name.

Another time I wasn't that lucky and an agent fined me and he notified me in that moment... he gave me a document with all the instructions to pay or appeal it. In that case I think that the processing center is only responsible of taking your points away...

Furthermore if you have a foreign plate it's a nightmare for them to process the fine so they force you to pay at the moment...


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## solchante

Peines said:


> Meanwhile in somewhere in Spain…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :rofl:





me parto


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## alserrod

OriK said:


> ^^ I didn't change the option and I received one of those "León letters" by certified mail. In fact I think it isn't technically certified but "administrative" but it's the same, the postman has to knock your door and you have to sign a document to receive it... if they can't notify you in this way their publish the notification in the official gazette of the government that issued the fine.


Thanks to God, I have not received any fine since new system started.
Last fine I received was by local police because incorrect parking and I raised it with success.

I knew I had a fine, but if it is parking, they cannot give to driver but send by mail. 
It is a not hard fault so it will expires in three months. And it starts counting the day the police checks you are wrong on parking.

Several weeks later I receive the information of a certified letter. I take the paper but do not go for it to the post office.
It comes august and everyone on holidays.

Further, they will publish on be gazette, with plate numbers and fine numbers, saying that all drivers should have to go for receiving the fine.

It is a correct communication but they make it once per month. Publishing an announcement in the gazette is expensive (even if all is inside the administration) so only one per month.

As a fair fault, they had three months to communicate me the fine... and it was published three months and six days later!!!!!

I raised because expired and I gained!!!!!!!!!!





> Luckily for me a relative was driving the car  so I said who was driving (by Internet) and they reissued the fine with the correct name.



Not sure but if there is no points decreasing it will be easier to give the paper to driver and paying faster. I think he will be able to avoid 50%.

But, really... not sure





> Another time I wasn't that lucky and an agent fined me and he notified me in that moment... he gave me a document with all the instructions to pay or appeal it. In that case I think that the processing center is only responsible of taking your points away...



You will be thinking in any other subject except legal reasons... but police will say specifically that you are notified even if you do not want to sign it and the time you have for appeal.
And, all the instructions are in the fine bulletin...

So no way if you receive on hand.




> Furthermore if you have a foreign plate it's a nightmare for them to process the fine so they force you to pay at the moment...


If a foreing plate car is fined, police can consider if they will be on trouble to charge the fine (and, except if you have a foreing plate car but you can prove you are in Spain for a while, such studying, working, etc... that could apply all foreing cars). 
If it does, they can ask for paying in the instance. They give you a receipt. You can appeal and if your appeal goes on, you can ask for money return with the interests.

A long, long, long time ago, I had a relative working in a little bank office in a small village close to a main road.

Police catched a foreing driver with a very high speed. He said he did not understand, did not understand, did not understand... They gave him the fine (and not cheap...) and seemed to say... ok, to the pocket, no problem. They showed the amount and said he could not drive if he didn''t pay at the instance.

Driver took his purse and showed he had only foreing currency (Euro did not exist yet). 
Police said... no problem. They took in their car to the nearest bank office (this is why my relative knew the case), ask for change for that driver. Driver had to pay in foreing currency to the bank, and banker gave police the fine amount, to the driver the rest of cash, and of course he took the bank commission for exchange!!!!!!!!


----------



## OriK

alserrod said:


> Not sure but if there is no points decreasing it will be easier to give the paper to driver and paying faster. I think he will be able to avoid 50%.


They reissued the fine with a new 15 days period to allow him to pay with the discount.



alserrod said:


> You will be thinking in any other subject except legal reasons... but police will say specifically that you are notified even if you do not want to sign it and the time you have for appeal.
> And, all the instructions are in the fine bulletin...


In fact they didn't ask me to sign anything, I asked him and he told me that it isn't necessary.



alserrod said:


> Driver took his purse and showed he had only foreing currency (Euro did not exist yet).
> Police said... no problem. They took in their car to the nearest bank office (this is why my relative knew the case), ask for change for that driver. Driver had to pay in foreing currency to the bank, and banker gave police the fine amount, to the driver the rest of cash, and of course he took the bank commission for exchange!!!!!!!!


Wow! haha, I'm not sure but I think that now you are able to pay with a credit or debit card.


----------



## alserrod

OriK said:


> Wow! haha, I'm not sure but I think that now you are able to pay with a credit or debit card.




Yes, you are... since several years ago and only if the police car has a card payment system.

When it happened it wasn't implemented yet and... they were very unusual


----------



## miliar

CNGL said:


> WHAAAAT??? They have downgraded N-420 in Castile La Mancha??? So now it seems to exist two N-420s. Now it's time to get ride of that weird national route by extending A-222 to Teruel and rerouting N-211 to Tarragona.





alserrod said:


> Have traspassed to CLM government and changed the number there.
> Characteristics are the same


Route *N-420* between Daimiel and Mota del Cuervo was transferred to the Regional Authority in 2007, so it is called *CM-420* now. Regional Government has carried out some works on this road:

*Herencia partial by-pass*: 4.3 km, 3.2 M€
*Alcázar de San Juan and Campo de Criptana partial by-pass*: 11,2 km, 8,2 M€

As these sections were opened to traffic last year, highway *CM-42* is used as a by-pass of *CM-420* between Herencia and Campo de Criptana now.









_Works on CM-420. Source: Castilla-La Mancha Regional Government_









_Alcázar de San Juan and Campo de Criptana by-pass (CM-420). Source: RTVE Regional News_

By the way, there are good news about roads in Madrid Region. Some works have finished on east area roads recently:

Eastbound service roadways at the junction of *A-2* with *M-300* and *East Torrejón de Ardoz*: 10 km of new roadways, 25 M€ invested by Torrejón de Ardoz Town Council.


















_Source: Torrejón de Ardoz Town Council_

New junction of *M-300* close to *Alcalá de Henares*: 2 km, 16 M€ invested by the Regional Government. The AADT of *M-300* at this point is higher than 37.000 vehicles.


















_Source: Madrid Regional Government_


----------



## miliar

alserrod said:


> +1
> 
> It is enough the Motorway or Highway signal to have a 120 km/h limit.
> 
> Even... if there is a minor limitation, I'm sure in any exit or cross it expires and becomes again to 120.
> 
> I explain it... should you enter in a motorway you have a signal and that will mean 120 km/h
> 
> Should you are on a motorway with a 80 km/h for a while and you have a cross... let's suposse you drive later on 120 km/h.
> 
> If you are catched by a radar, even of any limit, you can say you have entered in the last exit, you have seen a motorway signal and that means 120.
> 
> And there is no response to give you back


I agree. If there isn’t any speed limit sign, general 120 km/h limit will apply for drivers that merge onto the motorway. Of course, this limit can’t be different for the other drivers. So, if the speed limit is lower, a traffic sign is required at the end of the merge lane. However, please be aware that there is an exception: urban highways. :nuts: I try to explain it below.



verreme said:


> There are many more inconsistencies like that one in Spanish roads. For example, here's a sign indicating that you are inside Mataró city limits, so speed limit should be 50 km/h. But then you get 70 km/h signs because of the roundabout a few meters forward, like if the speed limit was 100 and dropped to 70. I mean, is it 50 or 100 km/h? Another one here. You enter city limits, and shortly after, you get 80 km/h signs. That's nonsense. Is it too hard to place both signs at the same spot? I guess it is. Now there's a 50 km/h speed limit that lasts 200 meters, and you can legally be ticketed for driving past it at 70 km/h.


There isn’t any mismatch in the case you explain. In fact, 50 km/h speed limit doesn’t apply on through roads according to traffic rules. Please read article 50 (Speed limits on urban routes and through roads) of Traffic Regulations. I try to summarize and translate it for our foreign colleagues:

_General speed limit on urban ways and through roads: 50 km/h (40 km/h in the case of hazmat vehicles)

This general speed limit can be lowered on especially hazardous through roads, if there is an agreement between the owner of the road and the Town Council, and urban routes, if it is decided by the Town Council.

Likewise, *this general limit can be increased by means of speed limit signs on through roads and motorways and dual-carriage ways inside the urban area*. Speed limit can’t be higher than general limit of these type of roads when placed out of the urban area.* If there isn’t any traffic sign, speed limit on motorways and dual-carriage ways inside the urban area will be 80 km/h*._

In Spain, through roads are special streets subjected to special rules. In this case, speed limit may vary depending on the width of the street and the distance between the edge of the roadway and buildings. According to the Spanish traffic-sign design code, speed limit on a through road will be determined as follows:










Of course, as soon as you leave the through road and take a side street speed limit will be 50 km/h.

On the other hand, general speed limit on urban motorways and dual-carriage ways is 80 km/h. In my opinion, it could be the case of *A-7* through Puerto Banús and San Pedro de Alcántara. Anyway, it isn’t always easy to determine if we are driving along an urban highway. hno:


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## OriK

There are lots of absurd limits and also a lot of exceptions (in case of incongruity, you have to obey the signals, not the driving code, so technically they can put tomorrow a 200Km/h signal in some motorway and you would be able to drive at that speed even if the code says that the maximum speed limit is 120)... the good part it's easy to know the speed limit... the bad part is that you cannot predict it...

For example M-30 has a 90km/h limit (70km/h in underground M-30) and if I remember it correctly, it's officially a street (it's because the city hall manages it, but it is a motorway in fact).

In the other hand, I had a bad time driving in Netherlands because I wasn't able to find any speed signal for almost 100 kms and I wasn't sure about the general speed limit... of course I think it's better to have a congruent system where you almost always have the same limit, but used to the Spanish system I felt like if I needed more information and like if I were breaking the code... maybe a signal every 10km more or less saying hey! remember! here the general speed applies would be nice.


----------



## Vignole

20 pics af A-43, from A-4 to Ciudad Real:

1.

A-43 01 by Vignole, on Flickr

2.

A-43 02 by Vignole, on Flickr

3.

A-43 03 by Vignole, on Flickr

4.

A-43 04 by Vignole, on Flickr

5.

A-43 05 by Vignole, on Flickr

6.

A-43 06 by Vignole, on Flickr

7.

A-43 07 by Vignole, on Flickr

8.

A-43 08 by Vignole, on Flickr

9.

A-43 09 by Vignole, on Flickr

10.

A-43 10 by Vignole, on Flickr

11.

A-43 11 by Vignole, on Flickr

12.

A-43 12 by Vignole, on Flickr

13.

A-43 13 by Vignole, on Flickr

14.

A-43 14 by Vignole, on Flickr

15.

A-43 15 by Vignole, on Flickr

16.

A-43 16 by Vignole, on Flickr

17.

A-43 17 by Vignole, on Flickr

18.

A-43 18 by Vignole, on Flickr

19.

A-43 19 by Vignole, on Flickr

20.

A-43 20 by Vignole, on Flickr


----------



## Vignole

Plus a bonus: acces to closed Ciudad Real Airport:

1.

Ciudad Real Airport access 01 by Vignole, on Flickr

2.

Ciudad Real Airport access 02 by Vignole, on Flickr

3.

Ciudad Real Airport access 03 by Vignole, on Flickr

4.

Ciudad Real Airport access 04 by Vignole, on Flickr


----------



## alserrod

Pity that there are no plans to arrive Extremadura in the next years


----------



## verreme

What road number does Ciudad Real Airport access have?


----------



## alserrod

do not know. When I lived there, it was under project


----------



## Vignole

^^

It is CM-9420.


----------



## OriK

A strike of workers of public transport has produced this morning more than 120Km of traffic jams in the main accesses to Madrid.

For example, the subway was working at 47% of their usual activity.


----------



## Aletsch

OriK said:


> A strike of workers of public transport has produced this morning more than 120Km of traffic jams in the main accesses to the city.
> 
> For example, the subway was working at 47% of their usual activity.


Which city?


----------



## Peines

^^ Madriz…?


----------



## x-type

few photos made 2 weeks ago on my catalan trip  i only took some photos between barcelona and Girona.

1. joining B23 at Esplugues de Llobregat. of course, we took whole Barcelona bypass instead of busy Ronda de Dalt. this is approaching intersection with A2.









2. this is just after intersection B23/A2. from this point A2 and B23 run paralelly, one at each side of river Llobregat.









3. i believe the whole outer Barcelona bypass will be 4+4 in few years.









4. here you decide whether to go to Madrid/Valencia, or to France, so joining AP7









5. continuing on AP7 direction France









6. here is entrance to laterals for northern sattelite cities of Barcelona to divide local traffic from transit. even if you want to enter Barcelona via tunnels Vallvidrera, or to take C58 to inner Catalunya, you must take this exit.









7.


----------



## alserrod

x-type said:


> few photos made 2 weeks ago on my catalan trip  i only took some photos between barcelona and Girona.
> 
> 1. joining B23 at Esplugues de Llobregat. of course, we took whole Barcelona bypass instead of busy Ronda de Dalt. this is approaching intersection with A2.



Please, all of you pay attention to this photo.


Ahead, tolled motorway AP-2 to Lleida and Zaragoza, written very big


This way
https://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=b...dowJAClLz32LaeCmEjEJXd-lb2j-7g&t=h&mra=ls&z=9


On the right, in very small, A-2 to Lleida, 2x2 (parts on 3x3) and absolutely free

This way
https://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=b...JXd-lb2j-7g&t=h&mra=dpe&mrsp=1&sz=9&via=1&z=9


----------



## x-type

8. after another 4+4 section we are approaching this bottleneck. left exit in combination of only 2 lanes at AP7. thie is actually the place where the last city motorway of Barcelona joins the AP7 near F1 circuit.









9. and at the other side of F1 circuit at Granollers we are approaching huge toll station, secon largest in Europe as far as I know









10. cool HSR bridge near Llinars del Valles. last time when I was there few years ago it was u/c.









11. we took exit Hostalric. what font is this? arial?! i haven't noticed it in Spain sooner.









12.









13. toll station at exit Hostalric. 5,75€, no discount for via-T. brrrrr.


----------



## Peines

*Trip from Alicante to Madrid. A-31*

Well… some pics of today… from *A-70*, then *A-31*, and finally *E-901 A-3*. Tomorrow more photos… M-30 Tunnels… :|































































_Yep, that's me… :crazy: _


----------



## Vignole

x-type said:


> few photos made 2 weeks ago on my catalan trip  i only took some photos between barcelona and Girona.


Nice shots.


----------



## x-type

btw, i have noticed one not so logic thing: why is there written França/Francia - Girona, instead of França/Francia - Girona/Gerona?!


----------



## Peines

x-type said:


> btw, i have noticed one not so logic thing: why is there written França/Francia - Girona, instead of França/Francia - Girona/Gerona?!


Catalonia. :yes:


----------



## Vignole

Because "Gerona" is not official.


----------



## Peines

^^ It's not official…? I have no idea… :/


----------



## alserrod

x-type said:


> btw, i have noticed one not so logic thing: why is there written França/Francia - Girona, instead of França/Francia - Girona/Gerona?!




They SHOULDN'T write França/Francia but Perpignan/Montpellier.

In Spain, at least in roads depending of Spanish government they will write always the official name. This is why they say Girona (the only official name) and being at Catalonia they say Zaragoza (in Catalan different name, but being an Aragonese city, it is the official name)

Barcelona and Tarragona have the same name in both languages


----------



## Vignole

^^

I agree, Perpignan and Montpellier would be better.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Zwolle would be even better.


----------



## x-type

Vignole said:


> Because "Gerona" is not official.


why? isn't Catalunya bilingual area, so they should use both castillian and catalan term? at last, why they use both castillian and catalan term for France?



alserrod said:


> They SHOULDN'T write França/Francia but Perpignan/Montpellier.


or Perpinya/Montpeller?


----------



## alserrod

x-type said:


> why? isn't Catalunya bilingual area, so they should use both castillian and catalan term? at last, why they use both castillian and catalan term for France?




They are things that... better do not ask because no answer.

In my city, outside Catalonia, we have marked Lleida, instead of Lerida (we do not speak Catalan) or Lerida/Lleida.

In roads depending of Spanish government (and in almost Catalan government) you will see only Zaragoza instead of Zaragoza/Saragossa.

At least they write one only name, the official one, that ones that appears in all GPS never minds the language and in all maps, so easy to find it.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Zwolle would be even better.


I want Chinese signing 韦斯卡 Huesca on the G6 Jingzang expressway leaving Beijing .


----------



## OriK

Almost every traffic signal usually shows the official name there are few exceptions:

- For countries (this in fact only applies to France haha, you can see it written in Spanish, French, Catalan or Basque)
- In some catalan government-dependent roads... (the Saragossa issue).
- In Euskadi, they usually have 2 official names, the basque and the spanish, and both are signaled.
- Some signals in arabic in the routes to Morocco.

For example near the border with Portugal, the Portuguese names are written in Portuguese instead of Spanish.




Aletsch said:


> Which city?


Sorry, I meant Madrid... it was a short note because I found it shocking but after reading it I realized that I had to leave at that moment to arrive today to Madrid hahaha


----------



## Peines

alserrod said:


> They are things that... better do not ask because no answer.


+1


----------



## Vignole

Here you have a quote of what says the Spanish "Norma 8.1-IC Señalización vertical"



> En Comunidades Autónomas que tuvieran idioma oficial distinto del Castellano, se atendrán los nombres a lo siguiente:
> 
> a. Nombres propios (poblaciones, provincias, Comunidades Autónomas, puntos característicos):
> 
> Se escribirá únicamente el topónimo oficial.


And the example given by this "Norma":










Source: http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2000-01-29/pdfs/A04049-04106.pdf


----------



## Vignole

Pics of another shadow-tolled motorway of regional government of Castile-La Mancha. It's CM-45 or "Autovía del IV Centenario":

1.


2.


3.


4.


5.


6.


7.


8.


9.


10.


11.


12.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Fourth centenary of what?

-----------------



Vignole said:


> Here you have a quote of what says the Spanish "Norma 8.1-IC Señalización vertical"
> 
> 
> 
> And the example given by this "Norma":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2000-01-29/pdfs/A04049-04106.pdf


Bueno.

Galicia is another region where only the local language is official for place names, right?


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Fourth centenary of what?



Of the book Don Quijote de la Mancha written by Cervantes and considered the best book in Spanish Literature.

In the book the author never says any real town or site and only talks about that area.
Some tesis set several towns or sites of the book according to descriptions, but it is only a theory.

Cervantes was born at Alcala de Henares (A-2, 25 km ahead Madrid) but it is know that two first chapters of that book were written at Argamasilla de Alba, very close to that motorway, in 1605.

That is why in 2005 they celebrated the 4th centenary.




> Galicia is another region where only the local language is official for place names, right?


Galicia has place names only in Galician, Asturias has bilingual system and you can find both names. Basque country has bilingual system and you can bet if you will find the signal in Spanish, in Basque or bilingual (and sometimes they are absolutely different names). 
Navarra has bilingual signals only in areas (50% north, including the capital) where Basque is spoken.
Aragon has a law to develop it. I have seen only few, few, few signals in Aragonese
Catalonia, Balearic Islands and Comunitat Valenciana have place names in Catalan (/Valencian...)


----------



## verreme

alserrod said:


> Of the book Don Quijote de la Mancha written by Cervantes and considered the best book in Spanish Literature.
> 
> In the book the author never says any real town or site and only talks about that area.
> Some tesis set several towns or sites of the book according to descriptions, but it is only a theory.
> 
> Cervantes was born at Alcala de Henares (A-2, 25 km ahead Madrid) but it is know that two first chapters of that book were written at Argamasilla de Alba, very close to that motorway, in 1605.
> 
> That is why in 2005 they celebrated the 4th centenary.


There are _a lot_ of real places in El Quijote. Big cities like Zaragoza, Barcelona, or smaller towns like El Toboso, where Dulcinea comes from.


----------



## alserrod

Zaragoza, not exactly.
The "Insula de Barataria" is located in the middle of Ebro river besides Alcala de Ebro. There is a statue about it.

In a study I watched, it is supposed the original town is Villanueva de los Infantes (not near from that motorway), but what it is clear is that first two chapters were written at Argamasilla de Alba


----------



## SeanT

Off topic...
This Don Quijote caracter is well known in Hungary too, even a disco song was written about the story/him in the ´70 by Neoton Família (Newton Family) very popular back than.


----------



## solchante

^^


----------



## maciek9207

My all records from Spain. Movies are recorded in 2011.


----------



## verreme

^^ Awesome videos, thanks! You Polish are visiting us more and more every year 

Just one thing: neither C-31B, nor C-42, nor N-340 are _autovías_. First two ones are dual-carriageway roads (_carreteras de doble calzada_) and last one is an ordinary road.



alserrod said:


> Zaragoza, not exactly.
> The "Insula de Barataria" is located in the middle of Ebro river besides Alcala de Ebro. There is a statue about it.
> 
> In a study I watched, it is supposed the original town is Villanueva de los Infantes (not near from that motorway), but what it is clear is that first two chapters were written at Argamasilla de Alba


Zaragoza is mentioned several times along the book and both Don Quijote and Sancho are supposed to go there, but they finally don't and go on to Barcelona.



SeanT said:


> Off topic...
> This Don Quijote caracter is well known in Hungary too, even a disco song was written about the story/him in the ´70 by Neoton Família (Newton Family) very popular back than.


LOL, didn't know that :lol:


----------



## verreme

We finally have an official opening date for C-58 HOV lanes, October the 26th. Only cars with 3 passengers or more will be allowed, as well as motorcycles, buses, electric cars or emergency vehicles. Source here.

Currently works are almost done and lanes in C-58 are back to normal width. There will still be some traffic disruptions, most notably the closure of C-33 tonight from 22.30 to 5.30 am.

I think Spain is the only European country with HOV facilities (A-6 and C-58). Am I wrong?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Most HOV lanes in Europe only allow buses and sometimes taxis. American-style HOV lanes do not exist elsewhere to my knowledge.

They opened a reversible HOV carpool lane in the Netherlands in the early 1990s but it flopped and opened to all traffic later. 

In my opinion, HOV lanes are a waste of money. Their hourly volumes are very low and could be justified in some American metropolises without much public transport (carpooling being a substitute) but this doesn't make much sense in Europe.

I'm very interested in seeing the traffic volume on that HOV lane.


----------



## verreme

It will likely be very low, given that cars will have to carry at least 3 passengers to travel it.

I don't think it's a solution for congestion in that corridor, as it will simply move it a little deeper into the city. The cost of the project has been outrageous, as these lanes run elevated over the motorway and their end is shoehorned into Nus de la Trinitat, one of the most complex motorway interchanges of Spain.


----------



## Attus

I agree with Chris, HOVs are replacements of public transport in America, in Europe, where public transport exists, and in diractions of heavy traffic is usually efficient, HOVs are waste of free space.


----------



## verreme

Attus said:


> I agree with Chris, HOVs are replacements of public transport in America, in Europe, where public transport exists, and in diractions of heavy traffic is usually efficient, HOVs are waste of free space.


No space wasted this time, as HOV lanes run over the existing roadway. Public transport in the area is not very efficient, but I don't understand the benefits of moving congestion just 6 km deeper into the city. Plus, very few vehicles will be allowed to use it.

I think they will eventually allow vehicles with 2 passengers to use it.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Attus said:


> I agree with Chris, HOVs are replacements of public transport in America, in Europe, where public transport exists, and in diractions of heavy traffic is usually efficient, HOVs are waste of free space.


As far as I know, the first HOV lanes in the US were in the Washington area, and were opened a few years after Metro lines serving the same corridors....


----------



## Peines

More pics of my trip to Madrid from Alicante: Now from *E-901 A-3* Km 43-41 to *M-30 / A-6 / Sinesio Delgado St.* link.












































































































































































_5 Lanes Tunnel :crazy:_


----------



## x-type

what is that device on your windshield where usually navigation device is? 

about C58 and HOV lanes - is it going to be adopted on whole lenght from Terrassa to La Trinitat, or only on some section?


----------



## verreme

I made a video of C-31C, a short dual-carriageway road connecting C-31 motorway with Sant Boi de Llobregat:








x-type said:


> what is that device on your windshield where usually navigation device is?
> 
> about C58 and HOV lanes - is it going to be adopted on whole lenght from Terrassa to La Trinitat, or only on some section?


Looks like a GPS-based radar detector to me.

HOV lanes in C-58 will go from Ripollet to Barcelona (6,8 km). Here's a video from Catalan regional government:






And a video from mine showing the state of works as of late March 2012. You can see the lanes being built elevated in the median:






Accesses to Sabadell were recently upgraded with the construction of two westbound collector lanes, which feed C-58C, the brand new western ringroad of Sabadell. Sabadell-Terrassa stretch is still 4 lanes.


----------



## OriK

I've used the reversible HOV lanes in A-6 and in fact it is a good way to promote a more efficient use of the car, but I think that the HOV thing is an excuse to get more from the infrastructure for allowing buses to skip de jam as few cars are allowed to use it (it's not only the ocupancy limit, but it also lakes most exists).


----------



## Peines

x-type said:


> what is that device on your windshield where usually navigation device is?


Well, a machine that help me to save a lot of money and license points. :|

It works with K, Ka bands and Laser.

Also has a GPS with a database full of speed cameras locations (and their maximun speed) and aslo locations for speed tramps, traffic lights with camera control, school zones, black spots, and indicates your real speed.


----------



## Vignole

B-40 is finished in Apple Maps. Great!


----------



## Peines

^^ FAIL

:crazy:


----------



## verreme

OriK said:


> I've used the reversible HOV lanes in A-6 and in fact it is a good way to promote a more efficient use of the car, but I think that the HOV thing is an excuse to get more from the infrastructure for allowing buses to skip de jam as few cars are allowed to use it (it's not only the ocupancy limit, but it also lakes most exists).


C-58 HOV lanes will have the same exits as the mainline, that is, none. Well, except for a rest area which is not accessible from HOV lanes.



Vignole said:


> B-40 is finished in Apple Maps. Great!


Neat. This proves Apple has always been some 5 years ahead from its competitors :nuts:.


----------



## Aokromes

Well, google used to do the same for years.


----------



## Peines

Even google maps cartography still sucks…! :lol:


----------



## alserrod

"thanks" to google I knew where the exits of A-22 would be.

It was still on works, and just started, but on google maps it appeared as finished for a while, enough to check the exact points of every exit.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Peines said:


> Even google maps cartography still sucks…! :lol:


Long live paper maps!

By the way, who, in our Spanish forumers' opinion, publishes the best road atlas of Spain?


----------



## alserrod

bfff... maybe only "official ones and one of my region, I found several mistakes (it was very detailed and because that I found a few mistakes)

maps online are similar than on paper. We can make a list of them and order by punctuation.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Doesn't Fomento publishes an official highway map each year? Unfortunately it's not free.


----------



## alserrod

I think every year and... I think it can be buyed only on-line


----------



## gincan

ChrisZwolle said:


> Most HOV lanes in Europe only allow buses and sometimes taxis. American-style HOV lanes do not exist elsewhere to my knowledge.
> 
> They opened a reversible HOV carpool lane in the Netherlands in the early 1990s but it flopped and opened to all traffic later.
> 
> In my opinion, HOV lanes are a waste of money. Their hourly volumes are very low and could be justified in some American metropolises without much public transport (carpooling being a substitute) but this doesn't make much sense in Europe.
> 
> I'm very interested in seeing the traffic volume on that HOV lane.


I believe the idea behind this one is to lure som drivers to take the bus insted, the existing comuter train is as slow as a donkey and completely useless, so with this HOV road maybe the buses can outperform the trains, atlest in theory.


----------



## alserrod

This is the Aragonese road map published on an official webpage of Aragon Government

http://carreterasdearagon.es/pix/mapa_carreteras_aragon.pdf

It should be two years old because A-22 doesn't appear finished on east (and a small strech of A-21 near Navarra)
And... obviously, the N-260 Sabiñanigo-Fiscal opened last july (on the Aragonese subforum we have a lot of photos of that road just after opening, and some of them here)

I found several mistakes:

Sabiñanigo-Jaca is A-23, not A-21
No motorway or similar on the west of Ejea de los Caballeros (btw, western ring is finished)
Motorway AA-1 is really ARA-A-1


But in the rest of cases I do not find any mistake, and there is too many information on the map


About the map:

- Green and red lines are tolled motorways
- Green and dark lines are free motorways (even if a 3x3 motorway with no access to little vehicles or similar. They only say if tolled or not tolled)
- Red lines are national roads. All of them N-XXX (and N-II). Managed by Fomento

The rest of roads in the map AND the ARA-A-1 are managed by Aragon Government and sometimes by local administration (sometimes it is the case of an off-road with asphalt and... appears in that map with its name), but mainly Aragon Government

After national roads:

First regional network is in orange: A-XXX and I think they are about 34 different roads (they can have only 5 km or more than 100 km)
Second regional network is in green A-1XXX and second digit indicates area... and you can see it
Third regional network is in yellow A-2XXX and also second digit indicates area.

"Usually", a national road will have better characteristics than a first level regional road (orange) and so on... but we can find a lot of examples where it happens upside down


----------



## alserrod

And... sometimes ago, several forumers posted the official maps of every region (and we could search for more). Should any of you want a map of a region, just ask for it and we could transfer question to the Spanish forum.


----------



## gincan

I don't understand why they keep on insisting on wasting public money on these "Official maps" now that there are far superior maps available for free.

I'm sorry to say this alserrod but that map look horrible, as if it had been commissioned by kindergarden pupils, unreadable, cluttered and just awful.

I would prefer to use even the over-cluttered Open Street Map over this thing hno:


----------



## verreme

gincan said:


> I believe the idea behind this one is to lure som drivers to take the bus insted, the existing comuter train is as slow as a donkey and completely useless, so with this HOV road maybe the buses can outperform the trains, atlest in theory.


A new direct bus line will indeed start the same day HOV lanes open. But I don't think it was the main purpose of this road.



gincan said:


> I don't understand why they keep on insisting on wasting public money on these "Official maps" now that there are far superior maps available for free.
> 
> I'm sorry to say this alserrod but that map look horrible, as if it had been commissioned by kindergarden pupils, unreadable, cluttered and just awful.
> 
> I would prefer to use even the over-cluttered Open Street Map over this thing


Free maps are not "far superior". They are far worse. Google Maps is highly inaccurate when it comes to name roads, for example, and bot GMaps and OSM show unbuilt roads, or forget about already-opened ones.


----------



## alserrod

One friend told me that his entreprise got a contract by the administration to check a lot of roads. Two teams of two people (one driver and one civil engineer). They left home on Monday and had a lot of roads to travel and check the asphalt status. He told me that maximum speed the drove was 50 because there was too many things to check while driving and too many things to write at the same time. That was the reason of being all the week out of home, even only 200 km away...


I think this official map can be made with only part of that data.

Apart of it, there are official maps for terrain, landscape, countries, etc... Just deleting specific data (such if you use layers), you can take an official road map.

In other words, I'm sure no one has worked for a specific road map but just using several other works.


----------



## alserrod

By the way... today maybe in several computered systems you can find something but for a lot of years the best maps VERY DETAILED where those made by the Army. 
Level lines (altitude), coordenates, etc... and if you had an off road or just a trekking lane, apart of roads (in case of road they said the wide of it).

They were very detailed and everyone who wanted to make trekking or similar bought them before anything else. They were very, very detailed and..... they were very cheap (the same price of a normal paper map but let's remember they had a looooot of information that couldn't be requested in other maps).

Unfortunately I do not know if they keep publishing them. Now there are other systems... and unfortunately, the level of detailed map and the period for updating them depended on Army interests only, not on library buyers interests
(in my case I requested always those in the Pyrenees for trekking and they could be those ones with more details and updated)

But... nothing online, only on paper. Maybe you can find a specific scanned photo or similar


----------



## alserrod

I found an example!!!!!!!

This piece of map is scanned from a military map.
There are roads (a small one), off-road lanes, trekking lanes, and you can see the exactly altitude











and the red route is for climbing this mountain (Peña Montañesa, near Ainsa, at Aragon)


----------



## x-type

can somebody write something about upgrading C25 on 2+2 autovia? i didn't know they are doing it untill i passed over it near Sant Hilari Sacalm where i saw construction site. tunnel Les Comes already has second tube (not operational yet). what is the progress? will it run only from Girona to Vic, or somewhere else? where will it join AP7 near Girona?


----------



## alserrod

Now, on Aragon TV (regional TV at Aragon), a document-TV about the 30 km of N-232


Amaaaaazing!

you can see it NOW live on www.aragontelevision.es and pushing PLAY
or since tomorrow at alacarta.aragontelevision.es and section "unidad movil"
Even if no acknoledgement of Spanish, I think images are enough...


About the program, this is the description that the TV makes about it.
I recommend you to use a translator to understand it. It worths too much
(and have a look about last paragraph)




> En el tramo entre las localidades de Figueruelas y Mallén, según la Dirección General de Tráfico, se producen una cuarta parte de los accidentes mortales que tienen lugar en las carreteras de Aragón. Es una de las reivindicaciones más antiguas de los vecinos que diariamente conviven con este tramo de la N-232.
> 
> “En el año 2008 pusieron una línea continua y limitaron la velocidad a 80 km/h, pero sigue habiendo accidentes cada semana”, cuenta Ana, vecina de Figueruelas, mientras se prepara, junto con otros compañeros, para la marcha lenta. Se trata de una protesta que llevan realizando 4 meses y que consiste en transitar con sus coches por este tramo tan peligroso.
> 
> ¿Cómo afecta convivir a diario con un tramo de carretera donde en los últimos diez años han perdido la vida 70 personas?
> 
> José Miguel es taxista en Pedrola. “Yo generalmente la evito yendo por una carretera auxiliar”, explica. Hoy le toca coger a unos vecinos para llevarlos a Mallén. “Van a una cena y van a beber, así que prefieren no conducir”. “Nuestros hijos juegan en una liga de esta zona; hemos visto cosas terribles, así que siempre intentamos evitar esta carretera aunque nos cueste más”, explican los clientes de José Miguel.
> 
> “Es la carretera que más cantidad de vehículos pesados soporta en toda España”, dice Mariano, responsable de Centro Zaragoza, una empresa dependiente de los seguros que se encarga de investigar sobre los siniestros viales. “Aquí la mayoría de los muertos se producen por choques frontales. En éste, por ejemplo murieron sus dos ocupantes; mira cómo está el coche… Pues iban a 50 km/h”, cuenta Mariano mientras muestra al reportero un vehículo cuya marca no se puede identificar por el impacto del choque.
> 
> La solución, según los afectados, pasa por hacer una carretera con dos carriles en cada dirección o liberalizar la autopista que va en paralelo con la N-232. Eder perdió a su hijo Alberto el día del Pilar de hace 4 años. Salió después de comer de su casa de Pedrola y ya no volvió. "Me llamó por teléfono a las 12 de la noche y me dijo que volvía para casa. Hora y media más tarde fue la Guardia Civil la que me llamó para darme la mala noticia".
> 
> "Mi pena es que si la carretera hubiera estado desdoblada aunque mi hijo se hubiera salido igual de la vía no hubiera tenido a nadie en frente a quien arrollar. Y el matrimonio de Mallén se hubiera salvado". A raíz de la muerte de Alberto fue cuando se decidió poner la raya continua en los 27 kilómetros y la prohibición de circular a mas de 80 km/hora.
> 
> ¿Por qué se producen tantos accidentes en este tramo de carretera? Un reportero de Unidad móvil “caza” a varios vehículos a más de cien km/h, cuando la velocidad máxima es 80 km/h. “La gente es impaciente por naturaleza, por eso adelantan en línea continua; por eso corren más de lo permitido”, explica el sargento Miguel. Otro de los motivos de la acumulación de accidentes es el elevado tránsito de camiones. De los 16.000 vehículos que circulan por este tramo a diario, el 60% son camiones. “A este tramo se le conoce como la senda de los elefantes”, dice Gregorio, un camionero que duerme habitualmente en su camión y come muchas veces de bocadillo para ahorrar gastos. Esa es la razón principal por la que muchos no optan por pagar el peaje de la AP-68 como ruta alternativa al tramo de la N-232, desde Mallén a Figueruelas.
> 
> ¿Cómo afectaría el desdoblamiento a los negocios que viven pegados a este tramo de carretera nacional? Los reporteros visitan el taller de Ángel, un argentino que lleva 7 años regentando un taller y a Jesús, encargado del restaurante “La Imperial”. “Si se hace el desdoblamiento…¿Cómo nos va a afectar? Yo no se si…? Cuenta Ramona, dueña de otro restaurante en Mallén. Pero, entonces, ¿Estaría en contra del desdoblamiento? Pregunta el reportero.
> 
> Mallén es el último pueblo de esos 27 kilómetros, antes de llegar a la autovía de Navarra. Los vecinos cuentan a la reportera como conviven con la carretera. " Aquí cuando menos te los esperas te enteras que un vecino se ha dado un golpe", comentan varios vecinos. "Yo he bajado 28 años a trabajar a Figueruelas y no tenía más remedio que ir por la N-232. Por autopista tienes que ir hasta Alagón y volver. Das mas vuelta, tardas más y más gasto claro". Ahora la mayoría van por autopista, pero hay un tramo de 5 kilómetros de carretera que son ineludibles si quieres entrar a Mallén. Precisamente en ese tramo se produjo el último accidente sin víctimas. Simona cuenta a la reportera como el pasado uno de agosto volvía a Mallén en el coche con su hija y su nieto de 40 días. El coche que llevaban delante adelantó mientras veían venir un camión de frente. "El impacto fue brutal y yo creí que nos matábamos, pero reaccioné bien y salí de la carretera a la derecha". "Salí del coche y fui a buscar al imprudente. Le dije ¿Estás vivo? Me respondió que sí. Luego le conteste: ¡Cómo le pase algo a mi hija o a mi nieto, te mato!


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## verreme

x-type said:


> can somebody write something about upgrading C25 on 2+2 autovia? i didn't know they are doing it untill i passed over it near Sant Hilari Sacalm where i saw construction site. tunnel Les Comes already has second tube (not operational yet). what is the progress? will it run only from Girona to Vic, or somewhere else? where will it join AP7 near Girona?


All 150 km of C-25, from Cervera (A-2) to Riudellots de la Selva (AP-7), are being upgraded to _autovía_ standards. They are building another carriageway parallel to the existing one. It will open altogether in January 2013, though in some stretches asphalt is already poured and signs put in place. Like other motorways built by Catalan regional government, it will be financed by shadow tolls.


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## miliar

x-type said:


> 11. we took exit Hostalric. what font is this? arial?! i haven't noticed it in Spain sooner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 12.


Typeface Helvetica has been used in this case instead of Highway Gothic, which would be the suitable font in this case. Arial font is quite similar to Helvetica, in fact it’s just a copy of this one.



alserrod said:


> They SHOULDN'T write França/Francia but Perpignan/Montpellier.


This is a simple way to show the name of foreign towns on guide signs. 












alserrod said:


> They are things that... better do not ask because no answer.


_“What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence”_. (Ludwig Wittgenstein, _Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus_, 1921) hno:


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## Peines

miliar said:


> _“What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence”_. (Ludwig Wittgenstein, _Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus_, 1921) hno:


+1


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## verreme

I drove C-58 HOV lanes yesterday. Here's a video.






There was a police check on the purpose-designed bay, which slowed me down enough not to gain any time over traffic on general-purpose lanes. I arrived at the first traffic light at par with the van I was driving aside just before entering HOV lanes; with a little more traffic I would had actually lost time. Guess it will be a wholly different story at rush hour (video was filmed at 11.30 am), but the emptiness of the HOV carriageway is still obvious.

Notice that buses are banned from entering HOV lanes by the left lane on the main carriageway; instead, they have to exit the motorway at the previous junction and use the ramp that also uses traffic coming from this junction (the only one of these lanes). They have to exit the same way; no traffic lights or actually getting off the motorway involved.


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## CNGL

verreme said:


>


They should have signed Valderrobres there :troll:.


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## alserrod

Why don't they point also Riaño/Cistierna in N-625?. The crossroad is just in Mansilla but some traffic take that road


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## alserrod

alserrod said:


> footballer Ballack meets today the judge because driving 211 km/h




Prosecutor asked for 2 years driving licence cancelled and 10.000 EUR penalty.

Attorney ask for less money according that even if he was a famous footballer, he doesn't have incomes right now......


Judge verdict in next weeks...


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## alserrod

A-60 just opened.

Photos taken from SSC Spanish thread



> Sin título por Filandón, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Sin título por Filandón, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sin título por Filandón, en Flickr


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## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> ...
> Attorney ask for less money according that even if he was a famous footballer, he doesn't have incomes right now......
> ...




If he doesn't have some in the bank, he's an idiot.


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## alserrod

+1


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## ChrisZwolle

A new section of A-32 will open on Monday.

Fomento:
La ministra de Fomento, Ana Pastor, asistirá el próximo lunes, 5 de noviembre, a la puesta en servicio del tramo Ibros-Úbeda de la autovía A-32 Linares-Albacete.​
Ibros - Úbeda is partially already shown as opened to traffic at Google Maps.


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## verreme

That's great news for this region. That stretch of N-322 is not particularly the best single-carriageway road in Spain. Both A-32 and A-316 were much needed.


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## verreme

I made a video the Barcelona bypass of AP-7. This is probably one of the most massive motorways in Spain, at 10 through lanes in a collector/express layout. The corridor carries 150,000 vehicles per day and travels through one of the most industrialised regions in Spain, if not the most.






It features some extra footage of El Papiol interchange seen from below.


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## OriK

It has some similarities with M-40


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## verreme

Yes it does, though it serves as a bypass of the city, and M-40 is meant mainly for local traffic, being M-50 the bypass in most cases. It is also less urban than M-40, as it is at a bigger distance from the city (it's actually separated from it by a mountain range).

Later on I'll try to record a video of the collectors (B-30). They have some interesting features too.


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## OriK

You are right although the M-50 has a noticeable different design... nonetheless I think that in Madrid it's more difficult to split local and nonlocal traffic being the M-30 the only ringroad that could be considered completely local.

For example E05 and E90 routes pass through M-40 and not through M-50... and I really think that it should be changed...

Anyway thanks for your contribution! 

I'll try to take a video of the future (far away in the future) M-60, nowadays some sections have been built as conventional roads but the interesting thing is that everything is ready for building the second roadway if the traffic rises up. It's going to be hard as I only can go there at nights :S


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## verreme

Video of B-23 motorway, the main access to Barcelona from AP-7. Features a 7-km long 2x4 stretch and variable speed limits through the entire route.


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## OriK

Great motorway considering its age!


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## Vignole

Thanks for the video.

Just want to say that from El Papiol to Molins de Rei the motorway is numbered AP-2, and is maintained by the private enterprise Abertis.


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## ChrisZwolle

Is there an opening date for this autovía in Galicia?

http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/AG-51


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## verreme

^^ No opening ceremony has been held yet, though road construction must be very advanced if not finished. Maybe they want to start building something in the industrial park the road was built for, as for some years there only were some earthworks.

-----

I made a video of C-60, the motorway connecting Maresme coast with AP-7 motorway and Vallès region. It is part of B-40, the proposed Barcelona orbital motorway. It features the 2-kilometer long Túnel de Parpers, which was recently refurbished.


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## verreme

Google Maps was recently updated in Spain. Now most motorways are orange (they used to be yellow or even white), and there are no orange single-carriageway roads. Plus, some newly opened roads appear in the map. But now motorways have no number, only the European route one. Plus, numbers are green in first-order roads (they should be red). And most motorways lost its name.

Seriously, everytime Google updates its maps, it's one step forward and one backwards. They never seem to get it right hno:. Last time they updated maps, some Catalan street names that have no translation were shown in Spanish, making Ronda de Dalt Ronda de Arriba. Which sounds terribly awkward. I hope they fix it soon, because now it's impossible to navigate Spain using motorways, as they have no number nor name.


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## CNGL

Coming from Italian thread.

About mountains seen from a road far away, I have seen the 2313 meter high Moncayo from E07 just Southwest of Huesca. And coming back from Zaragoza, the Monte Perdido (Literally "lost mount", 3355 meters a.s.l) can be seen. And both are 100+ km away.


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## ChrisZwolle

Vignole said:


> *4 January 2013*
> Tomorrow will open 143 km of C-25 in Catalonia, Spain.


That is pretty much the entire route, isn't it?

Interestingly it's not that much shorter than the old route via AP-7 and A-2. Only about 15 kilometers. But it's entirely toll free.


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## Vignole

^^

You're right. For this reason Catalan government want apply a vignette to trucks but Spanish government say they can't.

This new motorway is shadow-tolled operated by Cedinsa. The cost of a normal car is about €9 for the entire route and €12 for trucks. This means about €3bilion from now to 2040, when the concession will expire. The cost of construction was €700million.


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## Vignole

Source: http://www.elperiodico.com/es/noticias/sociedad/eix-transversal-desdoblado-abrira-enero-2277768


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## Vignole

Here you have the network operated by Cedinsa, that is: Transversal Axis (C-25), Llobregat Axis (C-16), Ter Axis (C-17) and Aro Axis (C-35 + C-65 + C-31)


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## Vignole




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## Vignole

This is the new interchange between C-25 and A-2 near Girona, just here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.86797380447388&lon=2.775721549987793&zoom=15


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## Vignole

Here underpassing AP-7 and new HSL from Barcelona to Figueres that will open next 8 January:



Source: www.ortoxpres.cat


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> That is pretty much the entire route, isn't it?
> 
> Interestingly it's not that much shorter than the old route via AP-7 and A-2. Only about 15 kilometers. But it's entirely toll free.


It's the full route between Cervera and Girona. The first kilometers in Cervera and Manresa bypass were already up to freeway standard.

Inauguration is tomorrow, but it has been oficially "put in service" today.


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## Vignole




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## Vignole




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## verreme

Drove all the way from Cervera to Riudellots de la Selva today. Excellent motorway, 120 km/h speed limit all the way except for some of the tunnels (honestly didn't expect that). There are even wildlife overpasses that may be the first of their kind in Spain. In Rajadell both carriageways split to make way for an archaeological site in the median, quite curious. Recorded the whole thing, but files are corrupted and I'm now trying to extract them in some way. Hope to have the first part on YouTube tomorrow.


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## Vignole

^^
Great, we'll be waiting!

I post some pics from the Catalan thread:



Sky said:


> _Vista de l’Eix a les Oluges_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Arc de les Fosses_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Enllaç de Sant Hilari Sacalm_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Ecoductes entre Muntanyola i Santa Maria d’Oló_
> 
> http://premsa.gencat.cat/pres_fsvp/docs/2013/01/04/14/26/bc8f9fe2-57a0-4bec-a30c-4f5bed5fb403.pdf


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## x-type

Vignole said:


>


i travelled on this place in september  (using this state road, GI550)


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## adevahi

It doesn't seem to be a lot of cars using that new highway, it was a needed road?


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## ChrisZwolle

I think it was more a safety upgrade than a needed capacity upgrade. The old two-lane road was heavily used by trucks to avoid tolls on AP-7. Toll evasion is a major problem in northeastern Spain, many two-lane carreteras nacionales have higher volumes than the parallel tolled autopistas. 

The traffic volumes on C-25 were mostly 6 000 - 15 000 vehicles per day.


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## Vignole

I heard yesterday that from 2000 to 2012, 144 people died in this road.


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## x-type

it was nice via rápida, wide, no sharp curves, wide hard shoulders, third lanes...


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## 437.001

adevahi said:


> It doesn't seem to be a lot of cars using that new highway, it was a needed road?


Yes, but not so much because of cars, but because of lorries saturating it and making it dangerous. There´s been many deadly accidents in this road, mostly because of lorries.

Besides, the traffic from southeastern France to central, northern and western Spain and to Portugal has now an easy way to skip Barcelona and its toll stations, and the new motorway makes the trip shorter.



Vignole said:


> I heard yesterday that from 2000 to 2012, 144 people died in this road.


+1


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## ChrisZwolle

*AP-8 Bilbao SuperSur*

I have some questions about the AP-8 Bilbao SuperSur.

Who operates it? It is a toll road. 

Are they demolishing the old road near central Bilbao? There are works going on there. At the same time they appear to be building a new feeder from central Bilbao to the western suburbs. 

Are there traffic volumes known of the new SuperSur?


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## CNGL

AFAIK they will replace part of the old road with a new tunnel, and remove the Cruces interchange (Which has a ton of left exits and merges) and build a new access further West. But those aren't the point of the works, they are for put a commuter railway underground.

As for Supersur, it is managed by Interbiak, a public society. Tolls on the Supersur are really really low considering the terrain through it runs, even to the point of being toll free during nights. AADT is far below expected, 14000 vehicles/day, but I believe is because the Eastern extension to AP-68 is not built yet. Further extensions East to Amorebieta and West to Muskiz are also planned.


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## Suburbanist

^^ What about this old, poorly maintained road http://goo.gl/maps/awpWd


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## Coccodrillo

What's the viaduct in the background here? Do you have a map of the carriageways and roads on that pass? As I understand from OpenStreetMaps, the two carriageways will follow different paths (one being the existing N-330).


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## OriK

ChrisZwolle said:


> The next phase of A-23 north of Nueno to Monrepos Pass will open in December 2013. A 5 kilometer segment of A-23 will open in a week or two with 1x2 lanes, after which the existing N-330 will be converted to the other carriageway of A-23.
> 
> http://www.elperiodicodearagon.com/...isuela-se-abrira-a-finales-de-ano_821984.html
> 
> Will there be a road for slow traffic as well? From the sound of it, it looks like the old road will be converted to autovía, which means there is no road left for bicyclists, tractors, etc.


Bikes are usually allowed in autovías shoulders (never in autopistas)... for tractors there are usually unpaved ways next to autovías...


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## arriaca

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What about this old, poorly maintained road http://goo.gl/maps/awpWd


This is not a "road" actually. It is the old N330 and now it is a rural service utility


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## alserrod

Wow... one news in my region and not enought time to answer so many messages.

Let me explain:

In THIS strech. Current N-330 is being refurbished and will be the two lanes direction Jaca

A new strech has been built for direction Huesca. This will go in the right side of the river so it includes several bridges and a tunnel there (motorway will go with lanes in the opposite sides of the river).

80 km/h was planned since the design.

And no options for other vehicles in this strech. 


Let me answer some of your questions


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What about this old, poorly maintained road http://goo.gl/maps/awpWd


As far as I know, I think it has no maintenance. It is former N-330 and sometimes, if current N-330 has been cut because any reason, there was a fast maintenance for a while and traffic driving there while works.
But I remember that only twice or three times in a loooooot of years


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## alserrod

Coccodrillo said:


> What's the viaduct in the background here? Do you have a map of the carriageways and roads on that pass? As I understand from OpenStreetMaps, the two carriageways will follow different paths (one being the existing N-330).




It has no traffic. It is also former N-330 in the Monrepos pass.

The tunnel with current traffic will be used direction Huesca. Tunnel under construction in this view will be direction Jaca.
HINT!!!!!. They will change directions... any strech will go in the left for the pass. Just after the tunnels, direction Huesca, lanes will cross over the other and will keep right again.

The viaduct in the photo is the one that takes to former Manzanera tunnel which nowadays has no service.

This is the picture in the opposite side of the tunnel

https://maps.google.es/?ll=42.32806...id=WIiIaiHHjK1dS31bPTstUQ&cbp=12,26.5,,0,3.29

Road is used only for arriving several very small villages and no need to cross that tunnel. In this photo the other tunnels cannot be seen but they are just several meters down


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## alserrod

arriaca said:


> This is not a "road" actually. It is the old N330 and now it is a rural service utility


And... only partially.

This picture shows the same road!!!
https://maps.google.es/?ll=42.30014...id=rlMWpC_nSigYYsF2Z1vA1Q&cbp=12,3.84,,0,1.19

and of course is out of service.

By the way, the 5 km strech will not arrive until this point but just somewhere before (looking from the south). In this point works have not started yet.

This strech is called "Congosto de Isuela" and only 2 km. Just for crossing this narrow space. As far as I know, current N-330 will be lanes to Huesca and a new road to Jaca with a tunnel near there will have two more lanes.

After those 2 km it will start the strech according to the 1,5 km tunnels.


The news talks only from Nueno (end of current motorway) and for 5 km to North, opening in December.


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## CNGL

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What about this old, poorly maintained road http://goo.gl/maps/awpWd





arriaca said:


> This is not a "road" actually. It is the old N330 and now it is a rural service utility


It wasn't N-330 either. That old road was always signed as C-136, and they built the N-330 near there right during the late 80s renumberation. But this viaduct...



Coccodrillo said:


> What's the viaduct in the background here? Do you have a map of the carriageways and roads on that pass? As I understand from OpenStreetMaps, the two carriageways will follow different paths (one being the existing N-330).


... was actually part of N-330 for a few years until the tunnels opened, and this explains why at the summit of Monrepós pass there are 4 km signed in 100 meters distance. In both cases current E07 is being upgraded to a "motorway", and I write motorway between brackets because I assume bicycles and other slow vehicles will be allowed since there will be no alternative.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Couldn't they convert the old road into a bike/scooter/agricultural vehicle path

In any case, one of the advantages of Spanish road network is that it took them much longer to start replacing earlier mountainous roads by better ones, compared to the French or Italian. Therefore, they usually have higher standards and often controlled access.

========================

What about that plan to reduce maximum speed on "carreteras" from 100km/h to 90km/h. Will it go ahead? I read on El Pais with my limites Spanish reading abilities that some specialists were looking to have it reduced to 80 or at least forbid any overtaking when the speed limit is over 80 on 1+1 roads...


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## OriK

^^ I think that there aren't much problems for biking there or riding a motorbike or even riding agricultural vehicles.... if Google's car was able to get in... anybody can...


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## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Couldn't they convert the old road into a bike/scooter/agricultural vehicle path
> 
> In any case, one of the advantages of Spanish road network is that it took them much longer to start replacing earlier mountainous roads by better ones, compared to the French or Italian. Therefore, they usually have higher standards and often controlled access.
> 
> ========================
> 
> What about that plan to reduce maximum speed on "carreteras" from 100km/h to 90km/h. Will it go ahead? I read on El Pais with my limites Spanish reading abilities that some specialists were looking to have it reduced to 80 or at least forbid any overtaking when the speed limit is over 80 on 1+1 roads...


Speed limit in single-carriageway roads will be lowered this Spring. That's all we know; everything else is just speculation.

About old roads being replaced by newer ones or freeways, they _should_ be either removed to preserve nature or kept as roads for non-motor vehicles. Reality is that once a new road opens, they are simply forgot. No maintenance is performed on them, so pavement cracks and signs fade. It's a shame because we could have a huge cycle path network by using (some of) the width of these old roads.


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## ChrisZwolle

Many carreteras nacionales are well-suited for 100 km/h, with a straight alignment, wide carriageway and sufficient visibility. Reducing them to 90 or even 80 km/h is plain stupid. However I can understand lowering the speed limit on less well-built roads.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Many carreteras nacionales are well-suited for 100 km/h, with a straight alignment, wide carriageway and sufficient visibility. Reducing them to 90 or even 80 km/h is plain stupid. However I can understand lowering the speed limit on less well-built roads.


There is only one reason: more people will use tolled motorways, some of them in bankrupt!


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## ChrisZwolle

The tolls on Spanish toll roads are far too high anyway. Spanish toll roads are one of the cheapest to construct in Europe, yet have some of the highest toll rates. The current high unemployment really doesn't help either. 

Maybe Fomento can buy the toll roads at a bargain. It happened a while ago in San Diego, California. The local government purchased the bankrupt toll road at a bargain and reduced the toll rates. After that, traffic volumes went up and revenue as well.


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Couldn't they convert the old road into a bike/scooter/agricultural vehicle path
> 
> In any case, one of the advantages of Spanish road network is that it took them much longer to start replacing earlier mountainous roads by better ones, compared to the French or Italian. Therefore, they usually have higher standards and often controlled access.
> 
> ========================


Let's talk stretch by stretch:


Nueno-Congosto de Isuela: Former road could be updated for pedestrians and bikes with not many problems.

Congosto de Isuela (the small stretch near the narrowest point and besides the dam): It will be very difficult to update old road. A great deal of it has dissapeared because current N-330 and other parts like the little tunnel will require an important maintenance.

Alto Aragon tunnels: Absolutely impossible. Road keeps open to arrive to Arguis (1 km away from motorway) and to climb to several very small villages. But to arrive those villages there is no need to cross the tunnel (almost 1,5 km). So the tunnel is closed and without maintenance. The old road keeps opened until the southern side of the old tunnel but impossible to use as an alternative.


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## alserrod

And talking about the N-330: 
Today, 10 years ago, Somport tunnel was opened in the E-07. It is a 8,1 km tunnel under the Pyrenees. The longest road tunnel in Spain and... is it the longest no-tolled tunnel?


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## ChrisZwolle

*SI-14, Asturias*

The second and third phase of a new express road in Asturias opened to traffic today. It's a two-lane expressway with grade-separation and a few tunnels. It runs east of AS-I and connect El Entrego with A-64.










http://www.elcomercio.es/v/20130117/cuencas/segunda-tercera-fase-bimenes-20130117.html


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## Peines

^^ It's Autovia, Autopista or just highway (100km/h) or road (90km/h)…?


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## ChrisZwolle

It would've gotten vía rápida status if that road class still existed. 1x2 lanes and interchanges. Probably 100 km/h.


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## alserrod

Surprise!!!... in the thread about roads for this region there is no post since several months ago. So no local info.


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## Shulamithie

verreme said:


> Fortunately maintenance on most toll motorways is obsessive.


They're so obsessed that the government wants to raise the speed limit to 140 km/h in toll motorways. They must help these entreprises, poor creatures, forgotten chums of politicians. hno: 



Suburbanist said:


> What is about those Arguis fried eggs?


There is a place in Arguis called "Merendero Lafoz" very famous for its fried eggs. I have been there twice, but none of them at fried eggs hours. The last time I had reached following this route: Jaca > Anzánigo > Rasal > Arguis. When I said it people didn't believe it. 



CNGL said:


> ^^ There is a bar located on the side of the old C-136 (It became N-330 for a short time before the new alignement, i.e. one of A-23 carriageways, opened), still popular even if the E07 hasn't been there for 20 years now: https://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&l...d=KR6IW3sToMsdrgDrBBvDRw&cbp=12,296.32,,0,2.9.


If you turn inside the photo you'll see a signal that marks it as N-330, but I prefer to call it C-136. It's a road for melancholy. 



alserrod said:


> There are some old bars and restaurants besides the roads that remains despite those huge roadside areas. They are pretty nice and food is usually better (and cheaper) than in main areas..


Another recommendation: "Hotel Monrepós", at the Arascués exit in A-23. And "Hotel Fetra" in Yéqueda, at Huesca Norte / Yéqueda exit in A-23. 



Suburbanist said:


> Is it better to travel from Madrid, Zaragoza and Huesca to Torla and Ordesa national park via Fiscal instead of via Biescas?


It's said that it's even shorter. The section Fiscal / Balupor is still narrow and full of curves, but the rest of the road is OK. 



Suburbanist said:


> Has that narrow A-1604 road become virtually a touristic drive only with few cars (N330 - Boltaña)?


I think it was so even before the works started. If you went from Jaca, Sabi, Biescas... you drove through Cotefablo. If you went from Huesca, Zaragoza... you went through Barbastro and Aínsa. 



alserrod said:


> I've been driven only once there, in August and found only two or three cars.


It's easier to find cows and toads than to find cars.  And I have driven it three times. 



Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What about this old, poorly maintained road http://goo.gl/maps/awpWd


Is it allowed to drive it? Please I must know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 



Coccodrillo said:


> What's the viaduct in the background here? Do you have a map of the carriageways and roads on that pass? As I understand from OpenStreetMaps, the two carriageways will follow different paths (one being the existing N-330).


This is the old (and beautiful) bridge over Flumen river. It's a part of C-136. 










The dark spot you can see above the tunnel being built is the Tunnel of Manzaneda. That part of C-136 is closed, but you can go from Arguis to the other mouth of that tunnel (which is closed) and there's connection to another road and space to turn the car. 
Today the tunnel being built is open and the other one temporarily closed, and where the trucks are now there is a bridge similar to the other one, but ugly. 



alserrod said:


> Today, 10 years ago, Somport tunnel was opened in the E-07. It is a 8,1 km tunnel under the Pyrenees. The longest road tunnel in Spain and... is it the longest no-tolled tunnel?


Don't say it too loud... the last thing we need is a toll in Somport. Anyway, I prefer the old road. I hate tunnels. 



KRX_69 said:


>


Look at the signals... :lol::nuts::lol::nuts::lol::nuts:


----------



## aby_since82

^^ What is so funny?


----------



## Shulamithie

The first signal indicates a racing circuit, and the second one warns of a speed radar.


----------



## Peines

^^ :rofl: BRUTAL :rofl:


----------



## Coccodrillo

Why it's yellow?


----------



## aby_since82

:lol: ah ok! There is a racetrack near highway, Monteblanco.


----------



## g.spinoza

I saw a similar sign near Jerez de la Frontera, I think on A381.


----------



## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> I saw a similar sign near Jerez de la Frontera, I think on A381.


If I'm not wrong that is an official speed circuit.

Among all year competitions, main of them is the motorbike Grand Prix of Spain.


By the way, near Malaga there is another circuit. As far as I know, it is a private club where members pay an annual fee and can use it for their cars with insurance included.
There are some members with speedy cars that and they prefer to keep them there only. No use on public roads.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> Many carreteras nacionales are well-suited for 100 km/h, with a straight alignment, wide carriageway and sufficient visibility. Reducing them to 90 or even 80 km/h is plain stupid. However I can understand lowering the speed limit on less well-built roads.


It is stupid indeed. Some parts of Spain, like Galicia, have a huge network of grade-separated two-lane roads that are designed with project speeds of 100 km/h which would also be downgraded to 90. Same for dual-carriageway roads, because when they say "carreteras secundarias" they mean all non-motorway (autovía/autopista) roads. Roads that get 100 km/h signs are designed to cope with these speeds, and in sections that are not suitable for them, there are lower speed limits.

Maybe they think all of Spain is like Madrid where there's no point 5 km farther from a freeway. In some parts of the country you must drive 100+ km on _carreteras convencionales_ to get to your destination. Lowering the speed limit would just be nonsense, as many would disobey it and overtaking maneouvres would increase, thus boosting the risk of head-on collisions.


----------



## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> By the way, near Malaga there is another circuit. As far as I know, it is a private club where members pay an annual fee and can use it for their cars with insurance included.
> There are some members with speedy cars that and they prefer to keep them there only. No use on public roads.


Near Malaga I only recall stupid "Costa del Golf" signs... :bash:


----------



## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> Near Malaga I only recall stupid "Costa del Golf" signs... :bash:


As far as I know, in Marbella municipality there are 18.

And be sure it is not the place of Spain with more water...


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ One thing that stuck me when I was there was how ugly Costa del Golf/Sol is compared to wild and beautiful Costa de la Luz. Two completely different worlds separated by few km.


----------



## KRX_69

g.spinoza said:


> Near Malaga I only recall stupid "Costa del Golf" signs... :bash:


Is this signs?


----------



## CNGL

Mijas? I have to counter-attack : http://goo.gl/maps/oyhtv.


----------



## Suburbanist

I think they need to create a separate road category for 1+1 expressways, with 100 or 110 speed limit, but not overtaking whatsoever. They can even put plastic boards on the central dividing line.


----------



## Shulamithie

Coccodrillo said:


> Why it's yellow?


In Spain, yellow signs indicate that the road has works on it.


----------



## g.spinoza

KRX_69 said:


> Is this signs?


Yes, but if I'm not mistaken there are also some signs with a stylized golfer, or something like that.


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> I think they need to create a separate road category for 1+1 expressways, with 100 or 110 speed limit, but not overtaking whatsoever. They can even put plastic boards on the central dividing line.


There was one indeed. It was called "Vía rápida", but it was scrapped in 2001. Some "vía rápida" signs could be seen in C-25 as late as in 2009, before its conversion to full _autovía_ standards. They were green, like all other directional signage. There may still be some left in former Galician _vías rápidas_, and some border speed limit signs may still display this category.

At some point someone decided that the term promoted speeding (_rápida_ = fast), so it was somehow replaced by _vía para automóviles_. But _vía para automóviles_ does not necessarily imply grade-separation, just restrictions to motor traffic. AFAIK, there are almost no _vías para automóviles_ in Spain. Existing _vías rápidas_ kept its green signs and new grade-separated single-carriageway roads were built as _carreteras convencionales_, with white signage and 100 km/h speed limit (or 90 in case of not having >1.5m shoulders and/or more than 1 lane in some of the directions).

Lowering the speed limit of this high-capacity roads will be a slap in the face of all planners and engineers that envisioned them. Looks like, in this country, there's no intermediate point between full-scale _autovías_ and ordinary roads.


----------



## Peines

verreme said:


> It is stupid indeed. Some parts of Spain, like Galicia, have a huge network of grade-separated two-lane roads that are designed with project speeds of 100 km/h which would also be downgraded to 90. Same for dual-carriageway roads, because when they say "carreteras secundarias" they mean all non-motorway (autovía/autopista) roads. Roads that get 100 km/h signs are designed to cope with these speeds, and in sections that are not suitable for them, there are lower speed limits.
> 
> Maybe they think all of Spain is like Madrid where there's no point 5 km farther from a freeway. In some parts of the country you must drive 100+ km on _carreteras convencionales_ to get to your destination. Lowering the speed limit would just be nonsense, as many would disobey it and overtaking maneouvres would increase, thus boosting the risk of head-on collisions.





Suburbanist said:


> I think they need to create a separate road category for 1+1 expressways, with 100 or 110 speed limit, but not overtaking whatsoever. They can even put plastic boards on the central dividing line.


One question I have since I have the license… What is the use for this signal ? (Vias para automoviles)










I never seen a road signed with that, only access to Autovia.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nice. The alignment is visible in Google Earth as well. It looks like it has all the characteristics of an autovía, except for the roundabout with LL-11. I wonder why they didn't extend it to A-2.
> 
> I once got lost in Lleida with my last vacation with my parents (I could choose the destination and I chose Spain  ) We came from Barbastro and were headed for Sitges and we confused A-2 with AP-2. Back in those days the difference between A and AP was only just introduced and not present on most maps.


Extension to A-2 is still at a planning stage, but there's a political will to get it built, as well as the rest of the motorway to Balaguer. No deadlines though.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nice. The alignment is visible in Google Earth as well. It looks like it has all the characteristics of an autovía, except for the roundabout with LL-11. I wonder why they didn't extend it to A-2.


I believe the roundabout is a temporary thing until they build the new road North. But for all purposes I consider this new C-13 section full motorway (And as such I posted the opening on the motorway openings thread) even if it is not signed as one. And as verreme pointed out, there are plans to make a full ringroad about Lleida.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I once got lost in Lleida with my last vacation with my parents (I could choose the destination and I chose Spain  ) We came from Barbastro and were headed for Sitges and we confused A-2 with AP-2. Back in those days the difference between A and AP was only just introduced and not present on most maps.


There was no A-22 back then. Oh, and if you come back to Spain PM me please.


----------



## alserrod

CNGL said:


> There was no A-22 back then. Oh, and if you come back to Spain PM me please.



Are you sure? A-22 at Monzon was opened in 2006


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I drove there in 2006 and I do not recall A-22 being opened yet. Monzón bypass opened in 2008. (22 July to be exact). I remember seeing circle irrigation along the N-240 for the first time in my life.


----------



## alserrod

Let me ask in another thread because I was in centre Monzon in July 2007 and I do not remember heavy traffic and I'm absolutely sure that strech Ponzano-El Pueyo was opened in January 2009. I drove there the day after opening and posted somewhere.

Edit: Sure... Ponzano-El Pueyo in A-22 was opened in January 30th, 2009 and I drove there the day after
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=31595212&postcount=1778

(exaaaaaactly four years ago since today. It was on weekend and making a trip to Barbastro).


----------



## CNGL

The first section of A-22 was opened in 2008. Maybe it was Sunday when you were in Monzón (Funny, is not that rainy despite it translates to "monsoon"). I have driven on Z-40/E90 superhighway on a Sunday, I felt like driving in North Korea .


----------



## verreme

My last video of Eix Transversal:






With this and Lleida Southern bypass, there are no more regional-government-financed motorways U/C in Catalonia. Not even major roads. All we have is tons of projects and plans


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove there in 2006 and I do not recall A-22 being opened yet. Monzón bypass opened in 2008. (22 July to be exact). I remember seeing circle irrigation along the N-240 for the first time in my life.




You're rigtht!

Prove, July 22nd, 2008 at 10:30

One Aragonese forumer has remembered exactly the hour and about not calling local authorities


----------



## miliar

Some news about Spanish roads :

Last Monday, Regional Highway Ourense - Celanova (*AG-31*) (18,7 km) was opened in Galicia.









_Source: RTVE_

On the other hand, works on *N-322* in the North of Albacete finished some months ago. A five-kilometre-long dual-carriageway has been built from the junction with *A-31*, where Albacete ring road finishes, to Pinares de Jucar crossroad.









_Source: La Verdad_


Regards.


----------



## Peines

WHAT WHAT??? A autovia with a national road number...???


----------



## joinmanzano

Some photos of the second section (A-92 - A-375) of *SE-40*, the second ringroad of Seville. It hasn't been opened yet


Jujo said:


> Unas fotos de Sevilla21 desde uno de los puentes que cruzan el nuevo tramo de la SE-40. Este tramo está ya acabado pero aún sin fecha de apertura


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Peines said:


> WHAT WHAT??? A autovia with a national road number...???


There are a few in the Bilbao area as well.


----------



## Aokromes

Or Vitoria-Gasteiz


----------



## verreme

^^ _Autovías_ with N-x road numbers do not only exist in the Basque Country. Here's one in Zaragoza.



miliar said:


> Some news about Spanish roads :
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand, works on *N-322* in the North of Albacete finished some months ago. A five-kilometre-long dual-carriageway has been built from the junction with *A-31*, where Albacete ring road finishes, to Pinares de Jucar crossroad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Source: La Verdad_
> 
> 
> Regards.


That is awesome news. I suppose there is a full-motorway interchange between A-31 and N-322 now, right? The previous situation, that featured with a left turn in a four-lane single-carriageway road, was extremely dangerous and out of place for a road of such importance.


----------



## miliar

^^

Yes. This interchange has been refurbished. In fact, works have taken several years. I drove through *A-31* last summer and exits on this junction was been modified.

As you say, there are still some examples of *N-XXX* dual-carriageways, as *N-601* in Valladolid :nuts::

http://maps.google.es/?ll=41.564023...jvAlvDz1tLmzuTMy7b8JUw&cbp=12,239.58,,0,10.25

In my opinion, *N-322* through Albacete should have been upgraded to *A-32*. hno:


----------



## verreme

Yes it should, especially now that other stretches of A-32 are being built further West.


----------



## alserrod

verreme said:


> ^^ _Autovías_ with N-x road numbers do not only exist in the Basque Country. Here's one in Zaragoza.


This stretch of N-232 near Zaragoza is 3x3 with four traffic lights.

It was named as A-68 until the motorway that links AP-68 (untolled there) and A-68 near Utebo was opened. Then it came again to N-232
https://maps.google.es/?ll=41.687207,-0.971518&spn=0.034805,0.084543&t=h&z=14

N-330 south has never changed the name. Now it has some roundabouts after building A-23 (which goes absolutely beside)
https://maps.google.es/?ll=41.60483...d=i-9QKJo68jq1RsKMpk_k_A&cbp=12,23.39,,0,4.29


N-330 north was named as A-23, E-07 even if it had a big, big roundabout and several U turns using left lane.

When in 2008 a new exit to north was opened, it became again to N-330

https://maps.google.es/?ll=41.695635,-0.871267&spn=0.017528,0.042272&t=h&z=15


----------



## Shulamithie

We have these unclassifiable roads because politicians think both that highways are cool and that people are utter idiots. They are able to put blue signals in roads like this one: 
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=anza...MX3iUM2mayv_ex_XDSNL7A&cbp=12,353.65,,0,13.58 
...And then to say that we're lucky because we have 42 new kilometres of highway... and they expect us to believe it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*AP-7 Cartagena - Vera*

The AP-7 Cartagena - Vera entered bankruptcy with a liability of € 550 million. The 115 kilometer toll road opened in 2007 but traffic volumes were way below expectations. The first 8 months of 2012 recorded a daily average volume of 3100 vehicles per day.

http://noticias.lainformacion.com/e...-de-unos-550-millones_jkqxCoOhXUfuUNXqPVyob1/


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ What will happen? Will the regional government take over the company for a fraction of the price?


----------



## timo9

Really cool thank's Peines for sharing :cheers:


----------



## DReardon1959

alserrod said:


> You're not a nuisance at all!!!. Ask whatever you want and we will try to help you.
> 
> It is possible you passed near my city and I hope I would recognise most of landscapes in pictures.
> 
> Post them here or post a link and will try to help.


As arriaca has suggested I have begun a new thread with a link to photobucket where I have posted a series of photos. Thank you for any help you might offer.

Dan


----------



## Sunfuns

ChrisZwolle said:


> You can't build motorways forever. At some point all major routes with high volumes are bypassed by motorways. Catalonia has one of the best motorway systems of any region in Europe.


Exactly. In fact that is true for most if not all West European countries. There are some gaps, some roads need improvements or widenings but all the major routes are already there. Spain and Portugal were the last major countries in the area with inadequate motorway networks.


----------



## verreme

CNGL said:


> I like the that time-lapsed motor sound. Some things: While a motorway it passes through California . Then when it suddenly becomes a single carriageway I would ignore the signs since they aren't written in Spanish as required, but they have the single carriageway warning sign. And finally around 5:00 it passes through (or, most likely, just outside) the smallest municipality in Catalonia: Puigdàlber.


It's called the Mediterranean . Some mountains and forests in California are very similar to the ones in the Spanish Mediterranean coast.

Just to point it out; Puigdàlber is the smallest municipality in Catalonia, but only in terms of size. In terms of population Sant Jaume de Frontanyà (pop. 28) wins the day, Puigdàlber left way behind at a whopping 535 people.

Language issues in these warning signs are nonsense, since they are intelligible for non-Catalan speakers. Plus, the legal warning sign is there, and road paint tells you the same story. So, in case you had a head-on collision, it would entirely be your fault


----------



## OriK

^^ you are right in that case but when it comes to urban signals it may get a nightmare to understand them... above all... the parking signals...


----------



## CNGL

In fact, you can not obbey some no parking signs in Catalonia. Those with text below. If they fine you, you can argue the sign was not written in Spanish as required. They have to let you to get away without paying.



verreme said:


> It's called the Mediterranean . Some mountains and forests in California are very similar to the ones in the Spanish Mediterranean coast.


Well, I was not thinking about that. But actually C-15 runs through California .


----------



## OriK

^^ If we leave out all the politics involved in the situation I really think that we got a problem with the languages and traffic signals at an European scale.... the signaling was more simple when it was designed... now it's very usual to have to add some text for clarification or exceptions and I think that some signals should be added to solve this and keep the system as iconographic as possible.

The problem is more visible in bilingual areas like Catalonia, but it's also a nightmare when crossing borders... something that is more common every day.

We need at least new signals (to be attached to existing signals) for time periods (weekdays, hours, official holidays...) and some situations (load and unload).


----------



## verreme

^^ Catalan is an official language in Catalonia. Spanish is also official. Signs written in Catalan are thus legal and must be obeyed whether drivers are Catalan speakers or not. There's no room for discussions. I don't know of anyone being lifted a ticket because of that; these are usually Internet hoaxes.

In the Basque country you may find the same issue. Traffic signs are written in Basque, so you get "kontuz" instead of "atención" or "jaiegunak" for "festivos" (holidays). That is because Basque is an official language there (Spanish is official, too, so some signs are written in Spanish). Same with France: the official language is French, so signs are written in French. I think it's the way it should be


----------



## Suburbanist

Law should be like this: signs should be on just one language per country (or at least on one single language throughout the country). So signs not in Spanish shouldn't be enforceable in Spain (regardless of whether they have other lesser language signaling accompaining the Spanish one).


----------



## geogregor

verreme said:


> ^^ Catalan is an official language in Catalonia. Spanish is also official. Signs written in Catalan are thus legal and must be obeyed whether drivers are Catalan speakers or not. There's no room for discussions. I don't know of anyone being lifted a ticket because of that; these are usually Internet hoaxes.
> 
> In the Basque country you may find the same issue. Traffic signs are written in Basque, so you get "kontuz" instead of "atención" or "jaiegunak" for "festivos" (holidays). That is because Basque is an official language there (Spanish is official, too, so some signs are written in Spanish). Same with France: the official language is French, so signs are written in French. I think it's the way it should be


But it can cause absurd situation when Spaniard from Madrid can be fined in his own country because he didn't understand Catalan in Barcelona. I would be seriously pissed of in that situation. Luckily we don't have such problems in Poland

The solution is obviously more visual signs using pictograms rather than text.
Textual signs should be limited to absolute unavoidable minimum. They work fine in the US where everyone speaks the same language but in Europe with many people travelling to countries with other languages it just causes unnecessary problems.


----------



## alserrod

geogregor said:


> But it can cause absurd situation when Spaniard from Madrid can be fined in his own country because he didn't understand Catalan in Barcelona. I would be seriously pissed of in that situation. Luckily we don't have such problems in Poland
> 
> The solution is obviously more visual signs using pictograms rather than text.
> Textual signs should be limited to absolute unavoidable minimum. They work fine in the US where everyone speaks the same language but in Europe with many people travelling to countries with other languages it just causes unnecessary problems.


No, they cannot
Every citizen in a region with two official languages has right and obligation to understand both languages.

That makes the situation that a signal in an official language different than Spanish is absolutely legal (and be sure... it matter of opinion about that... there are pages and pages of laws)
But... every citizen has the right to communicate with administration in Spanish, so if you receive any fine, it will be bilingual.

Be sure you will not have any problem in that way. If you have you can appeal because it is not in Spanish... but they will be sure not to make a reason for appealling.


Furthermore, for all administrations, if you write them and you ask to be answered in Spanish they will use that language with no problem.
Once I asked something online to a Catalan official webpage and answer came in Catalan. I asked for Spanish translation and they sent back to me in Spanish. They also said that should I had written that I wanted answer in Spanish or should I had written the city where I live (it was not mandatory), they would have answered in Spanish (the reason about the city is because it wasn't in Catalonia and they answer in Spanish to any message received outside of Catalonia... and they were right, I did not write the name of the city in the webpage)


----------



## Boltzman

alserrod said:


> No, they cannot
> Every citizen in a region with two official languages has right and obligation to understand both languages.


Your very first sentence in your post is plain false. Sorry to tell you so, but the obligation of understanding a regional language (within Spain) is not enforceable for Spanish nationals. However, they have the right to use it wherever it is an official language.



> so if you receive any fine, it will be bilingual.


In fact, courts have declared void fines written in a regional language only.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N-430 Ossa de Montiel*

The Ossa de Montiel bypass opened to traffic today. It's located along N-430 in western Albacete province. It's a 1x2 express road with 3 interchanges. 100 kph speed limit.


----------



## alserrod

Here's official press note

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...E_PRENSA/NOTICIAS1/2013/Febrero/130218-01.htm


----------



## geogregor

alserrod said:


> Every citizen in a region with two official languages has right and obligation to understand both languages.


Just to clarify. Spanish person visiting Barcelona is obliged to understand Catalan?? Including Catalan only road signs??
Something doesn't smell right here.


----------



## OriK

^^ of course not, you aro not obliged to understan Catalan (althought I think it would be recommendable) even if you move to Catalonia... supposedly you will be able to do everything in Spanish... there are noticeable exceptions like education where the main language is Catalan... and... traffic signs... you would have a great disadvantage for opting to a public work in the Catalonian administration if you aren't proficient in Catalan.

Also Catalonian is the default language for the administration there so you might need to ask for translations sometimes...


----------



## Peines

verreme said:


> ^^ Catalan is an official language in Catalonia. Spanish is also official. *Signs written in Catalan are thus legal and must be obeyed whether drivers are Catalan speakers or not*. There's no room for discussions. I don't know of anyone being lifted a ticket because of that; these are usually Internet hoaxes.
> 
> In the Basque country you may find the same issue. Traffic signs are written in Basque, so you get "kontuz" instead of "atención" or "jaiegunak" for "festivos" (holidays). That is because Basque is an official language there (Spanish is official, too, so some signs are written in Spanish). Same with France: the official language is French, so signs are written in French. I think it's the way it should be


NO :wallbash:

*The signs written only in catalan ARE NOT LEGAL*.

Let's check the spanish (also catalan) traffic law:

(From  Real Decreto Legislativo 339/1990, de 2 de marzo, 
por el que se aprueba el texto articulado de la Ley sobre Tráfico, Circulación de Vehículos a Motor y Seguridad Vial. )


> *Artículo 56. Idioma de las señales*
> Las indicaciones escritas de las señales* se expresarán al menos en el idioma
> español oficial del Estado*
> 
> _Article 56. Language of the signals
> The indications of the signals are written at least *expressed in the language
> Spanish Official State*_



(From Reglamento General de Circulación)



> Artículo 138. Idioma de las señales.
> Las indicaciones escritas que se incluyan o acompañen a los paneles de señalización de las vías públicas, e inscripciones, *figurarán en idioma castellano y, además, en la lengua oficial de la Comunidad Autónoma reconocida en el respectivo Estatuto de Autonomía, cuando la señal esté ubicada en el ámbito territorial de dicha Comunidad.*
> Los núcleos de población y demás topónimos serán designados en su denominación oficial y, cuando fuese necesario a efectos de identificación, en castellano.
> 
> _Article 138. Language of the signals.
> The written instructions that are included or accompanying signaling panels roads, and inscriptions, *appear in Castilian language and also the official language of the Autonomous Community recognized in the respective Statute of Autonomy, when the signal is located in the territory of the Community.*
> These settlements and other toponyms shall be appointed in his official name and, when necessary for identification purposes, in Castilian._


Please people, when we're talking about legal staff... PLEASE CHECK FIRST THE FUKIN' LAW. :bash:


----------



## verreme

Well, you can argue that Catalan is also a Spanish language


----------



## arriaca

geogregor said:


> Just to clarify. Spanish person visiting Barcelona is obliged to understand Catalan?? Including Catalan only road signs??
> Something doesn't smell right here.


Welcome to Hispanistan :bash:

PD: There may be cases (fortunately there is widespread) in which to ask a person in Spanish, he will respond in Catalan :crazy:


----------



## Sunfuns

Isn't this a bit pointless discussion? It can't be that difficult to learn few words in a related language. 

Let's move back to Spanish/Catalan roads, though. Plenty to discuss there


----------



## cuartango

So here it is:



The red line is the "highway to nowhere". The blue point shows the wall of the Madrid - Barcelona High Speed Train Line, that explains the name of the highway :crazy:


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## albertocsc

In Apple Maps, it appears entirely, but some parts only under construction.


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## ChrisZwolle

Funny thing is that M-206 goes under the railway less than 400 meters to the west. Apparently there are some issues about a tunnel under the railway. I don't understand exactly what the problem is, because the railway was there when they started construction in 2006 (!)


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## alserrod

Just maybe because the railway project was done in 2006 and the HSL are the most "untouchable" projects.

It is the only explanation I can find.


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## RV

And is it going to be completed?


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## verreme

^^ Not soon. Apart from crossing the HSL, connection with R-3 is also unsolved, and Accesos de Madrid (the company that runs R-3) does not want to deal with it as it says traffic going to M-203 would deteriorate the road. An agreement between Accesos de Madrid and the constructor of M-203 is thus very unlikely. Plus, given that other tolled motorways entering Madrid have proved highly unprofitable, the constructor of M-203 is also likely not to be interested in finishing the road and facing maintenance costs. And Madrid regional government will not pay the €70 million this road cost.


----------



## albertocsc

Could proposed 'nationalising' of motorways help to the construction of this one?

By the way, some times it seems that politicians are quite disturbing. Every time the goverment changes, the AP-41/A-41 Toledo-Ciudad Real(-Córdoba) motorway the previous goverment studied and proposed gets rejected, always citing environmental issues.

It happened in 2004 with Mocejón-Córdoba toll motorway (by national goverment) and also in 2011 with Consuegra-Ciudad Real supposedly free motorway (by regional goverment).

Now they say it is going to be built in collaboration by both regional and national goverment (I think some A-43 stretches were built this way), but all studies are going to be done from the beginning again.

In Spanish:
http://www.elcrisoldeciudadreal.es/...oledo-sera-una-realidad-antes-de-lo-previsto/
http://www.clm24.es/articulo/ciudad...-trazado-definitivo/20130507142527009399.html


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## verreme

^^ I don't think this motorway is necessary at all. The existing road is already fine. Plus, the proposal being studied makes a huge detour and will actually lengthen the route.


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## albertocsc

The existing road may be fine, but it needs four bypasses, in Orgaz, Fuente el Fresno and specially in Ciudad Real and in Puertollano (only this last one seems to be built in a near future).

By the way, there is no formal proposal now for the motorway. As I said, two previous proposals were discarded by new governments.

I have my own proposal, inspired by former two ones and considering a southern expansion, connecting Madrid, Toledo and Ciudad Real not only to Córdoba, but to Málaga and Algeciras too:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-jH8oZDZTD6RHp6MUtLbk04Ym8/edit?usp=sharing (in Spanish).
Backup link: http://es.scribd.com/doc/142641178/AP41N405


----------



## albertocsc

News about MP-203:

http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/05/13/madrid/1368476539_969943.html

And pictures of it:

http://www.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/05/14/album/1368539687_082611.html


----------



## ajch

Could be worse, at least, the 70M has been a private expending and not public expending


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*AG-51 Galicia*

Is there any news about the AG-51 in Galicia?

The AG-51 is a short 2x2 autovía that connects A-52 with a new business park PLISAN.

http://www.zonafrancavigo.com/zonafrancavigo_en/parques/plisan/

I can imagine that the current economic developments in Spain would slow the development of PLISAN, however October 2011 Google Earth imagery shows the road nearly completed.


----------



## KRX_69

Photos taken in last sumer 



KRX_69 said:


> *Viagem de Portugal a Gibraltar*
> 
> 
> 01. Saída de Portugal, pela manhã, rumo a Gibraltar
> 
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> 
> 
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> 02.
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> 03. Ponte do Guadiana
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> 04. A49
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> 05. Passagem por Sevilla
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> 06.
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> 07.
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> 08. N-IV entre Sevilla e Jerez de la Frontera
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> 09.
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> 10.
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> 11.
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> 13.
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> 18. Vista para Sul
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> 19. Vista para Norte
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> 22.
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> 23. Torre de Alcoaz
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> 24.
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> 25.
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> 26.
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> 27.
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> 28. "Toro Osborne"
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> 29.
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> 30.
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> 31.
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> 32. "Tio Pepe"
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> 33. A4 em Jerez de la Frontera
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> 34.
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> 35.
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> 36. Cartuja de Jerez
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> 37.
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> 38.
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> 39. A381 entre Jerez de la Frontera e Los Barrios
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> 40.
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> 41.
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> 42.
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> 43.
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> 44.
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> 45.
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> 46. Eólicas
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> 47.
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> 48.
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> 49. Túnel de Tablada
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> 50. Mais um Osborne
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> 51.
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> 52.
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> 55.
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> 56.
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> 57.
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> 58.
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> 59.
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> 60.
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> 61.
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> 62.
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> 63. Primeira visualização do rochedo de Gibraltar
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> 64.
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> 65.
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> 66. Cruzamento da A381 com a A7
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> 67. A7
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> 68.
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> 69. Saída para Gibraltar
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> 70. CA-34
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> 86.
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> 87.


To be continued...:cheers:


----------



## KRX_69

KRX_69 said:


> *Continuação...*
> 
> 264. A7 - saída Guadalmina
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> 265. A7 - saída San Pedro de Alcántara
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> 266. A7 - novo túnel San Pedro de Alcántara
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> 267.
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> 268. A7 - saída Marbella
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> 269.
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> 282.
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> 283.
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> 284. A7 - Torre Rio Real
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> 285. A7 - Altos de Marbella
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> 286.
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> 287.
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> 288. A7 - Calahonda
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> 289. A7 - Lucena
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> 290. A7 - Cala de Mijas
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> 295. A7- vista para Fuengirola


:cheers:


----------



## KRX_69

KRX_69 said:


> 315. N340 - Entrada de Benalmadena
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> 318. Av. de António Machado
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> 320. Av. de la Costa de Sol
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> 321.
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> 323. Av. de António Machado
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> 324. Entrada em Torremolinos
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> 325.
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> 326. Av. de Carlota Alessandri
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> 327. Av. Palma de Mallorca
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> 328. Plaza Costa de Sol
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> 329. MA-20 - saída aeroporto
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> 330. MA-20
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> 331. MA-20 - saída Málaga
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> 332. MA-21


:cheers:


----------



## KRX_69

KRX_69 said:


> 456. A7 - Segunda Circunvalação de Málaga
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 457. A7 - saída Churriana
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> 458.
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> 459. A7 - Segunda Circunvalação de Málaga
> 
> 
> 
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> 460.
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> 461. A7 - saída Torremolinos
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> 462. A7 - saída Mijas
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> 463.
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> 
> 
> 464. La Cala de Mijas


:cheers:


----------



## KRX_69

KRX_69 said:


> 465. A7 - saída Estepona
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 466.


:cheers:


----------



## KRX_69

KRX_69 said:


> 524. A7 - San Pedro de Alcántara
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 525.
> 
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> 526. A376
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> 527. Rotunda em San Pedro de Alcántara
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> 528. Urbanización El Madroñal
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> 529. A397
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> 530. A397 - Serra de Ronda
> 
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> 531.
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> 532.
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> 533.
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> 534.
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> 535.
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> 536.
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> 537.
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> 538.
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> 539.
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> 540.
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> 541.
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> 542.
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> 543.
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> 544.
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> 545.
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> 546.
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> 547.
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> 548.
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> 549.
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> 550.
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> 
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> 
> 
> 551. MA-7306
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 552.


:cheers:


----------



## KRX_69

KRX_69 said:


> 611. MA-7303
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 612.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 613.
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 617. Dar prioridade aos peões :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 618.
> 
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> 619.
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> 620. A397
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> 621.
> 
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> 625.
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> 629. A374
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> 630.
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> 631.
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> 633. A374
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> 634.
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> 635.
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> 636.
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> 637.
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> 638.
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> 639.
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> 640.
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> 641.
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> 642.
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> 646. A376
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> 
> 647. A376 - saída Urb. El Comodoro (21)
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 648.
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> 649. A376 - saída 17
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> 
> 650. A376 - saída Dos Hermanas (9)
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> 651. A376 - saída SE-40
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> 652.
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> 653.
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> 654. A376 - saída Montequinto (4A)
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> 655. A376 - saída SE-30 (0)


End :cheers:


----------



## alserrod

Nice them. You can use also for the international crossing thread.

By the way, is picture number four the first you saw in Spain?

If it is... what a Welcome!!!!!!


----------



## albertocsc

I have already seen Gibraltar in GSV some months ago... :/

By the way, I'll check that new imaginery.

And I want to share some images about Spanish road classification in Ciudad Real:


----------



## KRX_69

*Viagem de Córdoba a Caleta de Vélez*










149. Acesso A4









150. A4 - saída Plaza de Andaluzia









151. A4 - saída A45 Málaga









152. A45









153.









154.









155. A45 - saída Fernan Nuñez









156.









157. A45 - vista para La Rambla









158.









159. A45 - saída La Rambla









160. A45 - saída Aguilar de la Frontera









161.









162. A45 - saída Puente Genil









163. A45 - saída Monturque









164.









165. A45 - saída Lucena (norte)









166. A45 - saída Lucena (sul)









167. Cadeira Gigante :lol:









168. A45 - saída Encinas Reales









169. A45 - saída Benameji









170. A45 - saída El Tejar









171.









172. A45 - Ponte Rio Genil









173. A45 - saída El Tejar









174. A45 - Entrada na Província de Málaga









175.









176. A45 - saída Alameda









177. A45 - saída Antequera









178. A45 - saída A92 Antequera









179. A45 - saída Antequera









180. A45 - saída Antequera









181.









182.









183.









184.









185.









186.









187. A45 - saída A92M Granada









188.









189.









190.









191. A45 - saída AP-46









192.









193. A45 - saída AP-46









194. AP46









195.









196. Área de Serviço Cortijo Robledo









197. AP46 e A45









198.









199.









200. Portagem AP46 - Facto curioso, os veículos ligeiros pagam 4,90€ e os pesados 3,10€, mas se voltasse a passar nas próximas 24 horas só pagava 1,50€ apresentando o talão que me deram na portagem.









201.









202. AP46 - Túnel La Zambra









203.









204. AP46 - Túnel Cerro Léchon









205.









206. AP46 - Túnel del Cerro Negrete









207. AP46 - saída A7 Málaga









208.









209. A7 - saída Ciudad Jardin









210.









211. A7 - saída A45 Córdoba









212.









213.









214. A7 - saída Limonar









215. A7 - saída Pedregalejo









216. A7 - saída El Palo









217. A7 - saída La Cala del Moral









218.









219. A7 - saída MA24 Totalán









220. A7 - saída Benajarafe









221.









222. A7 - saída Cajiz









223. A7 - saída Vélez Málaga









224. A7 - saída Caleta de Vélez









225. A7 - saída Algarrobo









226. MA103 - Caleta de Vélez









*Próximas fotos:* dia 2 - viagem de Caleta de Vélez a Granada

:cheers:


----------



## Penn's Woods

albertocsc said:


> I have already seen Gibraltar in GSV some months ago... :/
> 
> By the way, I'll check that new imaginery.
> 
> And I want to share some images about Spanish road classification in Ciudad Real:


:nuts:

That's even more complicated than I thought.

Someone on this thread explained it all a couple of years ago, and I thought I understood it (not the history - the current system), but the "carreteras de ámbito urbano" and "carreteras basicas - de alta capacidad" I didn't know about.


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## albertocsc

Carreteras de ámbito urbano are like the northern by-pass of Soria (SO-20), which is also a motorway in the southern part, or the by-pass of Segovia (SG-20).
Basically, they are what Alejandro tells in the next post. In USA, together with Urban Motorways, I think they would be called Business roads (bypasses ending in 0, spurs in any other number).

Carretera básicas de alta capacidad is the name given in Castilla-La Mancha to what you could call a State Freeway. In other regions of Spain they would just just call it Autovía/Autopista autonómica, but that would imply it fully complies with motorway standards (here CM-42 does, but CM-10 doesn't).


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## alserrod

This is, those orbital roads or that stuff in the nearby of a city that aren't motorways, just 1x1


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## OriK

A video from one of the helicopters that are used to enforce the laws at roads.

This helicopter (Pegasus) is the only one whith a speed cam... and 35479 drivers were fined by it few weeks ago in a operation that lasted from the 19th of August to the 25th of the same month.

http://sdp.terra.com/preplayer/default.aspx?profile=iframe&country=es&contentid=493949


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## Iregua

albertocsc said:


> And I want to share some images about Spanish road classification in Ciudad Real:



And this is why I think that it should be the provinces (or the autonomous regions in some cases) the only administration to manage all kinds of roads, with the only exception of the most important motorways.

There should be an interstate-like system made up of the most important motorways, all of them called A-X or A-XX, financed through a vignette system. The rest of the network, including national, regional, county and local, plus short motorway "spurs" should all be managed by only one administration (be it the region or the province).

It's stupid to have three different administrations managing roads! Three different sets of snowplow fleets, three different maintenance teams, etc.


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## alserrod

It could, but if you look at the map you will notice that almost every N-XXX or its equivalent A-XX are managed by the State and they take a full network.
Furthermore I would say that if some of them weren't managed by the state, nothing special would happen. I do not consider some of them as "general state network" (official name).

Region administrations manages the "second level network" (and the third level). Sometimes it is a nightmare where it finish every level... I would set to them all roads, incluiding those small ones.

Finally, town halls of every municipality (doesn't matter if a little one or a huge one) manages their streets and lanes. These lanes can be paved or non paved but let's not consider them as roads (sometimes a lane to approach somewhere but never a road to link two towns or so).


If you see the full A-XX and N-XXX network you will see that it is enough big to move to somewhere and you will requiere only to use second level roads to approach final destination.

I think that considering almost all long distance movements, the motorways, roads, congestion, etc... there are just a few ones where you may use the second level network.


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## Iregua

I don't get your point.

I'm not talking about importance, networks or whatever. I'll say it again: It's stupid to have three different administrations managing roads.

Look at the Basque country: Every province manages ALL of the roads within its limits (with the only exception of the AP-68). From the _very important_ A-1 or AP-8 to any local road leading into a small village.

The fact is that Fomento has different "branches" (_demarcaciones _and _unidades_) which are unique to every province and, after all, are the ones who really manage the roads. Also, many regional governments have their own "offices" again in every province. And finally we have the provinces.

So, if all of the three administrations are "divided" into a province level, what is stopping us from merging them into only one? Isn't it stupid that a snowplow owned by Fomento is not allowed to clean a local road while the other snowplows are too busy?


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## rpc08

Iregua said:


> And this is why I think that it should be the provinces (or the autonomous regions in some cases) the only administration to manage all kinds of roads, with the only exception of the most important motorways.


Honestly I think that's fine to have the central administration managing the main roads of a country. Normally the resources are bigger and there's a clearer perspective of a network.

But if that's not possible I can't get the point in which the change of the owner of the road has influence in the roads denomination. What happened in France is a very good example: the whole national network was declassified to the department administrations. The result was a complete disaster, main roads were re-named as Dxxx like the secondary roads, most of the times with their names varying from one department to another. Not only the notion of "main road" was lost, the itinerary itself is now very hard to follow. Here in Portugal they're doing the same but in a smaller scale.

This doesn't make any sense. Even if in a technical/official approach this roads are now under regional or local administration, if one road is a main road by its traffic and significance this road should be named as a main road and not as secondary one. For us, as drivers and passengers, it's not important to know who is maintaining the road, but what kind of road it is.

The Spanish case is a good case of taking what is good and making it increasingly worse. The only necessary change that should have been made to the 70's model was the inclusion of the name "A-" for the motorways. First, the distinction between autovías and autopistas no longer makes sense as their profile is (with a few exceptions) very similar. Then, the Madrid radials and the regional autovías (_autonomicas_) are just a way to complicate even more with any need. Both are autovías/autopistas. Why must Madrid radials have a special status? C-32, C-33 and C-58 for example can be considered radials of Barcelona, CV-35 and V-21 radials of Valencia, etc, etc... As for the _autovías autonomicas_, what's the difference for example between CM-42 and A-1? Well, you may say the owner, but even that is not true, as the A-1 in the Basque Country is maintained by the autonomic government. Both are autovías, and CM-42 is a better one even is it's autonomic...


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## Iregua

rpc08 said:


> Honestly I think that's fine to have the central administration managing the main roads of a country. Normally the resources are bigger and there's a clearer perspective of a network.


That's why I said "_with the only exception of the most important motorways_" 

Many national roads now have a parallel motorway that -if not tolled- takes most of the traffic. There's no point on keeping a N-120 between Burgos and León which has become more like a local road since the opening of the A-231. The same with the N-630/A-66, N-620/A-62, etc. The Navarre's government renamed the old N-111 into NA-1110 after the A-12 Pamplona-Logroño opened.

The current national road network dates back to the 40's, and its last change was made in the late 80's if I'm not wrong. It makes no sense anymore. It should be regarded as a complement to the motorway network for long-distance trips, not as a network on its own. This means that some roads that are currently "orange" (regional, 1st category) should be elevated to the category of national roads (e.g. the EX-100 Cáceres-Badajoz), while some current national roads should be downgraded (only in its name) to regional roads.



rpc08 said:


> But if that's not possible I can't get the point in which the change of the owner of the road has influence in the roads denomination. What happened in France is a very good example: the whole national network was declassified to the department administrations. The result was a complete disaster, main roads were re-named as Dxxx like the secondary roads, most of the times with their names varying from one department to another. Not only the notion of "main road" was lost, the itinerary itself is now very hard to follow. Here in Portugal they're doing the same but in a smaller scale.
> 
> This doesn't make any sense. Even if in a technical/official approach this roads are now under regional or local administration, if one road is a main road by its traffic and significance this road should be named as a main road and not as secondary one. For us, as drivers and passengers, it's not important to know who is maintaining the road, but what kind of road it is.


I totally agree with you here. That's why I mentioned the Basque case: Despite of managing all of their roads, they still keep the "N", "A" and "AP" prefixes which don't "break" the network of the whole of Spain.

Changing the manager of the road does not necessarily imply changing its name. There should be an agreement between all the provinces/regions to modify the current "national road" network and use the same names for the same corridors.

But I think it's good to have less road authorities, because it means less administrative personnel and therefore more money for road mainteinance. Let's have a look: 
-Ministerio de Fomento has 47 "unidades" or "demarcaciones", one per province (except the islands, Ceuta and Melilla).
-Now, if every regional government has a delegate in every province (not counting regions which consist of only 1 province, nor the Basque Country): 4 in Galicia, 9 in C&L, 3 in Aragón, 4 in Catalonia, 3 in Valencia, 8 in Andalusia, 2 in Extremadura, 5 in C-LM, 2 in the Canary Islands. That's 39 if I'm not mistaken.
-Add 52 for each department of Roads in every province, Ceuta and Melilla.

That's 138 "chiefs" for 52 territories. Why couldn't there be only 52, or even less?




rpc08 said:


> The Spanish case is a good case of taking what is good and making it increasingly worse. The only necessary change that should have been made to the 70's model was the inclusion of the name "A-" for the motorways. First, the distinction between autovías and autopistas no longer makes sense as their profile is (with a few exceptions) very similar. Then, the Madrid radials and the regional autovías (_autonomicas_) are just a way to complicate even more with any need. Both are autovías/autopistas. Why must Madrid radials have a special status? C-32, C-33 and C-58 for example can be considered radials of Barcelona, CV-35 and V-21 radials of Valencia, etc, etc... As for the _autovías autonomicas_, what's the difference for example between CM-42 and A-1? Well, you may say the owner, but even that is not true, as the A-1 in the Basque Country is maintained by the autonomic government. Both are autovías, and CM-42 is a better one even is it's autonomic...


I totally agree with you here again


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## CNGL

Iregua said:


> A-231


I'll never understand why the Leon-Burgos motorway is A-231. There is a road in Eastern Aragon numbered A-231 too, but I know the logic behind that designation, so I consider that motorway the Spanish I-238. What moron assigned a already existing number to the motorway? Anyway, I think A-12 would work better, but the road is managed by the regional government, not Fomento.


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## albertocsc

Taking their own numbering system, the name would have been A-120, but maybe as there was not a CL-120 but a N-120, they chose number 231 (odd, as there neither exist a CL-231 I think).



Iregua said:


> This means that some roads that are currently "orange" (regional, 1st category) should be elevated to the category of national roads (e.g. the EX-100 Cáceres-Badajoz), while some current national roads should be downgraded (only in its name) to regional roads.


That road was indeed N-523, but in the 1983 regionalization of roads, was given to Junta de Extremadura, as Zafra branch of N-435 (now EX-101) was too. All regionalized roads were given EX-xxx numbers in 1997.

Other examples are:

In Catalonia, Eix Transversal N-141 (C-25), N-230 South (C-12), N-150 (still with that name), most of N-152 (C-17). In regard to Autopistas A-16, A-17, A-18 and A-19, some already were regional and some regionalized in this time.
In Madrid and C&L, original N-601 between Madrid-Segovia-Valladolid (M-601/CL-601+A-601), while N-403 Toledo-Valladolid became N-601 between N-VI and Valladolid.
In Andalusia there were lots of transfers, like N-321 Úbeda-Málaga (with examples as A-316 and A-7000), N-324 Córdoba-Jaén-Almería (A-306, A-324, A-401, A-308, A-92), N-333 Madrid-Cádiz by-passing Seville (A-364 and A-394), N-334 Sevilla-Antequera (A-92), or N-342 Jerez-Antequera-Granada-Murcia (A-382, A-384, A-92, A-92G, A-92, A-92N/ A-91 in non-transferred stretch).

In addition, new national roads were created, as N-310, N-502, N-260 or N-344, bases for A-43, A-74 (now discarded), A-26 and A-33+AL-12 respectively.


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## sponge_bob

The Spanish could easily switch to a 2 tier network for Management, National and State. The state can then contract municipalities to deal with state roads in their own areas.

The complex bit that nobody from outside ( or inside Spain  ) understands this A AP and C(state) name system as many of the state ciudads are as good as or better than A roads. The states could keep ownership of high quality Cxx roads but let the National road system designated the High Quality Cxx as A something or other in the National network. 

And change N roads to state roads. Every important N road now has an A alongside it and is no longer Nationally important in Spain. 

Bad as things are in Spain it has a fantastic motorway network and has not overbuilt the network as badly as Portugal where quite a few high quality motorways only carry 4-6k AADT a day. These also exist in Spain but not to the same extent, there won't be any more now that the Cajas are all gone as the Cajas were captured by construction companies. Nationally Spain only really needs to finish the A7 and A8 to have a full network. 

But you need a 2 tier system not a 1 tier system as that would not work in Spain with the powerful state governments, just let the states set standards for municipalities and decide on municipal/ state priorities on non national roads.


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## OriK

Reading the previous posts I think that it's getting confused...

A can state for Autovías or Autopistas (or Andalucian roads).

For example, A-42 is an Autovía and A-40 is an Autopista (both toll-free).

AP state for Autopistas de Peaje (Toll motorways).

N states for Nacional (conventional road).

Those 3 are used for national or inter-regional scope roads.

For regional scope roads, the autonomic or provincial even local (depending also on the scope of the road) prefix is used.

The owner of the infraestructure doesn't have anything to do here, for example the A-1 is partially owned by the Basque government as it has been said before, M-30 is owned by the city hall of Madrid, M-45 is owned by the region of Madrid and M-40 is owned by the central government.

In motorways, you can usually (but it's often only noticeable when the road has a regional scope) see who owns it by the symbol of the road, for example, the M-30 is sometimes preceded by the coat of the city... M-45 has an orange background while the motorways owned by the central government or belonging to the national/inter-regional network have a blue background.

But there are usually some signals in the road indicating who is the owner:

Owned by the central government:









Owned by the government of Extremadura:









Anyway, nevertheless who owns the motorway, sometimes the maintenance of the central government's road is made by the autonomies and sometimes the central government do the maintenance of a regional owned road.


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## albertocsc

OriK said:


> A can state for Autovías or Autopistas (or Andalucian roads).


It also stand for Álava/Araba roads, Aragón roads, Alicante urban motorways (A-70, A-77, A-78 and former A-79) and Castile&León regional motorways.

And until two years ago, even some Murcia and Albacete provincial roads (they still exist in Murcia, but preceded by RM-, and in Albacete now there are only AB-xxx/AB-xxxx provincial roads).



sponge_bob said:


> The Spanish could easily switch to a 2 tier network for Management, National and State. The state can then contract municipalities to deal with state roads in their own areas.
> 
> The complex bit that nobody from outside ( or inside Spain  ) understands this A AP and C(state) name system as many of the state ciudads are as good as or better than A roads. The states could keep ownership of high quality Cxx roads but let the National road system designated the High Quality Cxx as A something or other in the National network.


We already have a 3-tier network (National, State, Province), as graphics show. 
River basins or forests authorithies can also own roads, but they normally are of a very local influence.

I think our 3-tier works well, it just needs coordination between all road authorities (Ministry, Regional Goverments, Province councils and maybe even island councils) so they can produce a more understandable numbering, and avoid coincidences like those of A-231 (C&L and Aragón) or N-622 (C&L and Basque Country).


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-7, Granada province*

It looks like A-7 along the coast of Granada province will be completed by 2015.

Minster of Fomento, Ana Pastor, announced several segments will open in 2014 and 2015;

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...RENSA/NOTICIAS1/2013/SEPTIEMBRE/130905-02.htm

It's a bit of a shame that they were able to construct so many motorways in rural areas, while it takes long to mop up the remaining missing links of the core network, such as A-7, A-8 & A-66.


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## Peines

albertocsc said:


> I think our 3-tier works well, it just needs coordination between all road authorities (Ministry, Regional Goverments, Province councils and maybe even island councils) so they can produce a more understandable numbering, and avoid coincidences like those of A-231 (C&L and Aragón) or N-622 (C&L and Basque Country).


Road Numbering in Spain does not respond to criteria of practicality or easily understood, only political marketing criteria.

The only thing that _Autonomias_ had done with roads is to change the road number. _"Branding" en otras palabras_.

I said a lot of times in the spanish forum, all we need is a road classification to Motorway, Major Highways, Minor Highways and Country / Local Roads. Not a classification in function of the owner of the road, that's stupid…


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## CNGL

Indeed. One of the very few female forumers proposed classifying the roads according to maintenance status:
A: Motorway-like (_Autopista_)
B: Good road (_Buena_)
C: Path of goats (_Camino de cabras_)
D: Oh my God! (_¡Dios mío!_)


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## Suburbanist

My favorite classification systems would be one where the road type (be it a letter, or a color, or a shield) clearly identifies its basic features (access control, tolls, grade separation). That is the most relevant information for the driver, not the political jurisdiction over the road.


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## javimix19

ChrisZwolle said:


> It looks like A-7 along the coast of Granada province will be completed by 2015.
> 
> Minster of Fomento, Ana Pastor, announced several segments will open in 2014 and 2015;


You have all reason Chris, congratulations, I didn't know that you understand spanish.

I think that it is a very good news, this motorway has a long history of construction.


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## Penn's Woods

^^Yes, but does he understand Basque? :jk:


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## alserrod

The problem in A7 could be that there was another option via Granada so long distance journeys were assured by motorway.

Apart of them... (both A8 and A7) could it be possible that the A22 is the largest and not finished motorway?


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## Escargot

CNGL said:


> Indeed. One of the very few female forumers proposed classifying the roads according to maintenance status:
> A: Motorway-like (_Autopista_)
> B: Good road (_Buena_)
> C: Path of goats (_Camino de cabras_)
> D: Oh my God! (_¡Dios mío!_)


It was me... but with a different nick.  
Letters reflect who's in power or something like that, a not very practical criterion when you're driving. I don't want to thank their graces, their highness for having built a road... I just want to go from A to B. 
Numbers (at least in national roads) are a mixture of this: 
- 1st cipher (sector): is it important to know that I'm driving between N-I and N-II? Will I drive more confidently thinking that I'm not lost? 
- 2nd cipher (hundreds of kilometres from Madrid): If I'm not driving from/to Madrid... why should I care? 
- 3rd cipher (radial or not): more or less the same. 
You have to travel somewhere and you don't know how to get there. What's important for you? Choosing the fastest, the shortest, the most efficient road. If you know in advance that pavement is so awful that your car is going to break you can look for an alternative road. If you don't know it the letter will only serve to know who to shit on. :lol: And numbers... numbers are so subreal that I don't have words to describe how useless they are. Not in English and not even in Spanish.


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## alserrod

Catalonia made more than 10 years ago a nice map for their second level network, indeed.

All those roads with only two digits. C-XX.

Catalonia has a map like a triangle, which makes easier to make any numeration










When they started, general rule:

C-1X all south-north roads (and km. 0 always in the south)
C-2X all west-east roads (and km. 0 always in the west)
C-3X all roads in diagonal, paralel to the coast (doesn't matter if country inside. If it is paralel, C-3X)
C-4X, C-5X and C-6X all perpendicular roads to the coast and km 0 in the coast

For instance C-12 (it is a south-north road) will be wester than C-18
And C-28 will be norther than C-25...

It is easier to know the direction because there is a general rule about directions, location, etc... and these roads aren't so longer as national roads (they can take 200 km for instance but some of them are quite smaller).

And they are lucky because a map like a triangle helps to make this road plan.


From my side, it is a quite interesting idea.


I have only two things I do not like. Motorways and tolled motorways are not pointed. They will keep C-32 but in blue, and if tolled, a signal of toll only, nothing in the name.


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## Escargot

alserrod said:


> Catalonia has a map like a triangle, which makes easier to make any numeration


Numeration there is not easier due to Catalonia's shape but because they wanted to make it easier. Consequently, if Aragon is a mess is because our politicians are a mess.


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## verreme

I made a video of CV-13, a grade-separated single-carriageway road that connects the (unused) Castellón airport with main roads in the coast. The airport has had no flights since its opening, but as CV-13 connects CV-10 motorway with N-340 and AP-7 it has created a toll-free corridor from Valencia to Torreblanca, which saves almost 20€ of tolls when driving from Barcelona to Valencia.






Notice the mandatory low beams and the signs warning of the speed difference between cars and trucks. These are to be found in many other Spanish roads.



ChrisZwolle said:


> It looks like A-7 along the coast of Granada province will be completed by 2015.
> 
> Minster of Fomento, Ana Pastor, announced several segments will open in 2014 and 2015;
> 
> http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...RENSA/NOTICIAS1/2013/SEPTIEMBRE/130905-02.htm
> 
> It's a bit of a shame that they were able to construct so many motorways in rural areas, while it takes long to mop up the remaining missing links of the core network, such as A-7, A-8 & A-66.


Cost is the issue with A-7 and A-8. The remaining of A-66 was simply unnecessary. It's not part of the main network; there's no traffic going from Sevilla to Oviedo.


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## CborG

^^ Nice car sound


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## albertocsc

In fact, only the main regional network in Catalonia has that easy numbering system.

For their county and local roads they have just not made a new system at the moment, so they just keep their old numbers (N-150, C-xxx/xxxx, B-xxx, T-xxx, GI-xxx, L-xxx).


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## alserrod

In my region system is this one (apart of national roads)

First regional level, A-XXX in orange
(this is the A-222 refurbished)
https://maps.google.es/?ll=41.29225...6&panoid=e7756IPwOZXYRlkW9NQrRQ&cbp=12,0,,0,0

Second regional level, A-1XXX in green
(this is the A-1232 refurbished)
https://maps.google.es/?ll=42.07608...=XCB3c3eEQNr8TQQyPihr-w&cbp=12,355.38,,0,0.58

Third level as A-2XXX in yellow.
They are quite small roads.


But... there are about 35 first level (A-XXX) so no need to have three digits. In fact they use the classic old system. This is, A-1XX if it starts in the north of A-2 and A-2XX in south.

They could make a simple A-XX with only two digits. What it could be difficult is to have a system like in Catalonia (vertical, diagonal, etc.. with a specific digit) because the map is not a triangle.

But they should think.

Furthermore, in the case of A-1XXX and A-2XXX, the second digit points the area but... I do not remember them, and supossing that a person that takes care in these details doesn't remember (like me), I would say that almost nobody knows it.


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## Escargot

Digits in our roads were directly inherited from "Plan Peña" (1940), so the second digit doesn't really say anything. 
A clear example is C-125, which was divided in A-1205 (Jaca / La Peña), A-125 (Ayerbe / Navarra) and NA-125 in Navarra. They used their imagination. :lol:


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## Penn's Woods

Reading all this, it occurs to me I don't think I've ever seen a (published, paper) map of Spain that color-codes the roads. They just show the prefixes and numbers. Which (I think) works anywhere else in Europe outside the British Isles.* By which I mean that in France, say, As and Ns are always red, Ds are yellow, so if your map doesn't use different colors for its route markings you're not missing anything....

*Where you need to distinguish between green As - primary routes - and other As. (Ns in Ireland.)


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## OriK

But the political jurisdiction over the road isn't stated in the road letter/number... just the scope of the road is.

The only problem is that sometimes is hard to know the features of a regional scope road as both autovías and conventional roads have the regional prefix, but often autovías are the ones wich 2 numbers (like M-50 or CM-42) the regional roads have 3 numbers (like M-506) and local roads have 4 (like TO-4515).

Extremadura chose to have a regional numbering plan with the A letter before the number to state that it's a motorway (EX-A1).


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## verreme

We need a state-wide classification of motorways with only one prefix. We could use three-digit numbers, it's no big thing. We already use them. Current system is nonsense. Prefixes should reflect road standard, not the owner of the road. We could do with 3 or 4 prefixes, like in Britain.


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## alserrod

For a regional road, it doesn't matter the number, name, etc... but for motorways and other long distance roads.

I will set two examples

N-240 Tarragona-San Sebastián
if you go by motorway (current, on built and projected) would be A-27, AP-2, LL-11, A-2, A-22, A-23, A-21, A-15, AP-15, A-15 and A-1

Yes... the whole journey between Tarragona and San Sebastián that in the classic road it is just N-240 (partially shared with N-330)


By the way, N-330 is Alicante-Somport pass

If you arrive from France... first sign will be "N-330, km. 666".
What the hell!, km 666. to whereeeee?. Just to Alicante.
But nobody will go to Alicante following that road

They would take the A-23 to Sagunto and later A-7 or AP-7

Why do we have does "ghost roads" (roads where nobody drive corner to corner)???


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## OriK

^^ well if we compare... almost nobody takes the A-3 from Madrid to Valencia...


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## Escargot

It's true, sometimes the equivalent for a road is a big lot of highways or viceversa. I think it complicates the journey, because we tend to think that 1 road = 1 highway (and with a similar name, if possible) is the norm. 



alserrod said:


> If you arrive from France... first sign will be "N-330, km. 666".


Little stop and parenthesis to talk a bit in Spanish (it wouldn't be the same, you know that sometimes the true substance is lost in translation): 
Tío, a ti esa señal te mola, ¿eeh?


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## alserrod

BTF?

There are roads nonsense. And one clear example is the N-330.

Nobody would take it to go from Alicante to Teruel through that road. It will be faster to go via A7 or AP-7 and later A-23.
Yeah, after Teruel it is the faster way to approach Somport pass but between Alicante and Teruel it has nonsense

Thus, we have some kilometre numbers that give no information. You enter in Spain and they say that there are 666 km to Alicante following a road that nobody uses for that journey. I know by heart that in the northern side of Zaragoza it was the km. 501 so it helps me to have an idea.

The problem is there are several roads like this one and furthermore, there are a lot of "small" motorways, so in a few years, all two digit motorways will be full and they will need, either starting with a three digit or (let's hope) thinking in a whole new numeration


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## Escargot

As all of this was inherited from "Plan Peña", it reflects the status quo when in Spain there weren't highways yet. It was OK then (or not, who knows), but now it's completely obsolete. Yet the "666" near Canfranc is funny due to its location.  
If all those signs haven't been changed yet and we're here talking about them... it's because the ones responsible for them aren't as interested as us in roads, in logic or in practicality.


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## Iregua

Penn's Woods said:


> Reading all this, it occurs to me I don't think I've ever seen a (published, paper) map of Spain that color-codes the roads. They just show the prefixes and numbers. Which (I think) works anywhere else in Europe outside the British Isles.* By which I mean that in France, say, As and Ns are always red, Ds are yellow, so if your map doesn't use different colors for its route markings you're not missing anything....
> 
> *Where you need to distinguish between green As - primary routes - and other As. (Ns in Ireland.)


The official road map of Spain (published by Fomento) uses the different colours for the roads --except for motorways--, apart from the prefixes. This is an example I've found:










The paper version looks cleaner, as there are fewer "icons".

The funny thing is that some provinces don't use _only _the yellow colour for province roads. For instance, Álava/Araba (Basque country) uses *A-3XXX* and *A-4XXX* (previously they used blue instead of grey) apart from the typical *A-1XX* and *A-2XXX* which, regarding colour-coding, are similar to the rest of Spain.


I've even seen some sky-blue in Zamora, or purple in Soria :lol:




verreme said:


> [...]
> Current system is nonsense. Prefixes should reflect road standard, not the owner of the road. We could do with 3 or 4 prefixes, like in Britain.


Probably, but better than road "standard" I'd say "importance". For instance, on the one hand you have a 8 m wide, 1 km long straight road that links a town with a national road, on the other hand you have a 6 m wide, 30 km long winding road that connects several towns along a valley. Shouldn't the latter have a higher category than the first? 

I think that there shoud be "A-" (for motorways), "N-" for national roads, "C-" for the currently "orange" roads and the most important "green" ones, "XX-NNN" for the rest (where XX is a province/region code). No more B-P-1234, ZA-L-4321, SO-V-9876. A thousand roads for every province is more than enough.

I would keep the province codes to avoid extremely high numbers, or having different roads with the same name, as happens in France with the D roads.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Nice!

I may just add that to my collection....


----------



## alserrod

In the previous map appear part of Navarra and mainly Aragón (boundary is in the pink line).

All the roads are pointed with the oficial number, colour, and name. But only Fomento manages N-240 and A-21 (on Works in the image, partially opened today)

The other ones, Fomento just copy the official information they receive.


----------



## KRX_69

242. MA-102









243. A7 - Túnel Tablazo









244.









245. A7 - Túnel Torrox









246. A7 - saída Nerja









247.









248.









249. A7 - saída Cueva de Nerja









250.









251.









252.









253. A7 - Túnel de Cerrosol









254. A7 - Túnel del Pino









255.









256. A7 - Entrada na província de Granada









257. A7 - saída Almuñecar (oeste)









258.









259.









260. A7 - Túnel de Cantalobos









261. A7 - Viaducto Rio Verde









262. A7 - Túnel de Calaceite









263. A7 - saída Almuñecar (este)









264.









265. A7 - saída Almuñecar (este)









266.









267.









268. Vista para o Mediterrâneo









269. Acesso A7









270. N340 - La Caleta









271. N340 - Salobreña









272.









273. Acesso GR14









274. GR14









275.









276. GR14 - vista para a nova ponte da A7









277. A7









278. A7 - saída A44 Granada









279.









280. A44









281.









282. A44 - saída Ronda Sur









283. A44 - saída Granada (centro)









:cheers:


----------



## javimix19

I read in Wikipedia a list of the longest tunnels in Spain:

*1- Manzanares Tunnel *(M-30): 24.931 m. Madrid










*2- Somport Tunnel *(N-330): 8.605 m. Huesca (Aragon)-France




















*3- South Bypass of M-30:* 7.844 m. Madrid










*4- Juan Carlos I Tunnel (Vielha II):* 5.230 m. Lleida province, Catalonia




























*5- Cadí Tunnel (tolled) (C-16):* 5.026 m. Barcelona-Lleida provinces, Catalonia



















*6- Bracons Tunnel (C-37):* 4.500 m. Barcelona-Girona provinces, Catalonia



















*7- Negron Tunnel (Ap-66):* 4.144 m. Leon-Asturias



















*8- Folgoso Tunnel *(A-5 3.500 m. Pontevedra, Galizia



















*9- Isuskitza Tunnel (Ap-1):* 3.377 m. Araba-Gipuzkoa, Basque Country



















*10- Guadarrama Tunnel *(Ap-6): 3.340 m. Madrid-Segovia



















*11- Bielsa Tunnel (A-138):* 3.070 m. Huesca (Aragon)-France



















*12- Soller Tunnel (tolled)*(Ma-11): 3.023 m. Mallorca, Balearic Islands




























*13- Belate Tunnel *(N-121-A): 2.900 m. Navarre, Basque Country



















If you want all the list you have here: (in spanish)

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:T%C3%BAneles_de_Espa%C3%B1a

*Important advice: *all the images taken by Google. *All credits to their owners.*


----------



## CNGL

I've been inside the two tunnels that are located partially in my province, as well as the Folgoso and Soller ones. I would have been in the Belate tunnel if it wasn't closed due to an accident by the time I went through the area, forcing us to go up the mountain pass (And we would have done the same in Soller if we knew it was t[r]olled).


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## alserrod

Somport is the longest non-tolled in all UE.

And the longest "natural" tunnel in Spain (Madrid ones are just covered motorways)

By the way, Cadi south entrance is in Barcelona province. North entrance is in Lleida province but almost the whole tunnel is Girona province!!


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## javimix19

This is the longest motorway bridge in Spain. *Rande Bridge *in Vigo, Galizia. 1.558 m. Opened in 1978.




























And this is the longest bridge under construction: *La Pepa Bridge*, in Cadiz, Andalucia. 5.000 m.




























*All credits to their owners.*


----------



## Suburbanist

alserrod said:


> Somport is the longest non-tolled in all UE.


No, it can't be.

The San Gottardo tunnel is longer than the Somport, and no tolls are charged to drive there.


----------



## g.spinoza

Switzerland is not UE.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Somport Tunnel is indeed the longest untolled tunnel in the European Union. It's not the longest of Europe though, the Lærdal Tunnel in Norway is 3 times longer and untolled. By 2023, the Stockholm Bypass Tunnel will be the longest untolled tunnel in the EU (16.5 km). 

I do not consider the Gotthard Tunnel or Seelisberg Tunnel to be toll-free. You need a vignette to drive through them.


----------



## OriK

alserrod said:


> And the longest "natural" tunnel in Spain (Madrid ones are just covered motorways)


Well, those tunnels were made by TBMs so they were not covered at all... do you mean that they aren't meant for avoiding any natural obstacle?

Urban tunnels are always discualified for rankings  ... for example, Guadarrama tunnels are considered the longest tunnels in Spain while the Madrid's L12 of Metro tunnels are longer...


----------



## alserrod

Guadarrama tunnel (motorway AP-6) was the first tolled motorway in Spain. Late 60ish.

If you look at a map, just crossing that tunnel there are a great deal of destinations, and it is not far from the city.

Although you do not want to pay tolls, that tunnel is almost compulsory. Alternative is the mountain pass where you won't drive faster than 40.

By the way, the AP-6 motorway costs per kilometre. So if you wanna use it only for the tunnel, you can.


----------



## g.spinoza

Sant'Antonio Morignone tunnel on SS38 in Italy is 7925 m long. It's actually made up by three distinct tunnels linked together. May this be the second longest untolled in EU?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

AG-55 construction visible on 2011/2012 imagery on Google Earth. Current status unknown.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

EL-20 construction around Elche visible on 2012 imagery. Current status also unknown, virtually no progress visible between 2010 and 2012 imagery.


----------



## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> Sant'Antonio Morignone tunnel on SS38 in Italy is 7925 m long. It's actually made up by three distinct tunnels linked together. May this be the second longest untolled in EU?


It is possible.

To my best knowledge, Somport tunnel is 50 metres longer than in the first projetc to avoid having an entrance inside a national park. French government asked to enlarge it a little just to avoid it.


----------



## Escargot

And yet the Spanish part is longer than the French one.


----------



## alserrod

2/3 in Spain more or less but not easy to know when you have crossed the border. Signals are the same, bilingual and there are only some flags paintes in the wall... But a tiny paint considering the huge tunnel


----------



## Escargot

I wouldn't consider it either tiny or discreet.


----------



## adevahi

javimix19 said:


> This is the longest motorway bridge in Spain. *Rande Bridge *in Vigo, Galizia. 1.558 m. Opened in 1978.


I don't know if it can be a motorway, but Quinto Centenario in Seville (2+3 lanes with the lane in the middle for both directions depending on the moment of the day) is 500m longer


----------



## sponge_bob

Iregua said:


> So, 1 km of road in Madrid can be 'supported' by 1,493 people, while in Soria it's only 29 people.


Exactly, furthermore Soria does not have a Metro (yet) so roads are vital as there is no alternative mode of transportation.


----------



## verreme

I made a roadtrip to Delta de l'Ebre a while ago and recorded some videos.

This is N-340 south of Barcelona. The road in the second video was built by the concessionire of AP-7, as the contract signed with the Spanish government implied building an alternative toll-free road (the existing roadway, built some years before to bypass a treacherous, winding mountain pass, became one carriageway of AP-7):











Second video also features the final works of N-340 L'Aldea bypass, which opened days after the footage was shot.

This is N-340 bridges in Amposta. The big one was set to become AP-7 some day, but in the end another bridge was built further upstream in order not to force all non-motorway traffic to cross Amposta. However, until little ago, the dual-carriageway bridge featured in the video was signed as an _autovía_, making it perhaps the most substandard motorway in Spain. As for the bridge leading to downtown Amposta, it is said to be the world's second bridge to be built with reinforced concrete, the first being the Brooklyn bridge in New York.






And this last one is a bridge connecting the villages of Sant Jaume d'Enveja and Deltebre. It's the easternmost crossing of Ebre river and it opened in 2010; a bypass of Sant Jaume d'Enveja opened some months ago.


----------



## verreme

The way back of the trip above on AP-7. The stretch around Tarragona was widened to 2x3 lanes 4 years ago. Today, the drive from La Jonquera on the French border to Salou is fully 6-laned except for two short (<1 km) interchanges (C-33/AP-7 and B-23/AP-7). At 250+ kilometers, this is the longest 2x3 stretch of motorway in Spain.


----------



## RV

Isn't it 2x4 around Girona? Any pics?


----------



## verreme

RV said:


> Isn't it 2x4 around Girona? Any pics?


Video coming soon . I filmed the whole AP-7 from C-33 (Barcelona) to the French border. It will all be published next week.

Girona bypass is indeed 2x4.


----------



## CNGL

And once again, the usual traffic jam on E07 (N-330) road over the Monrepós pass formed this evening. This occurs when there is a long weekend like this one, where Friday was a holiday. This wil be (hopefully) part of the past when the motorway is completed, but currently it won't happen until the 30th of February.


----------



## alserrod

Are the five kilometres in the southern side on-going to be opened on December or they seem to be quite slow?


----------



## Suburbanist

CNGL said:


> And once again, the usual traffic jam on E07 (N-330) road over the Monrepós pass formed this evening. This occurs when there is a long weekend like this one, where Friday was a holiday. This wil be (hopefully) part of the past when the motorway is completed, but currently *it won't happen until the 30th of February.*


Is this a self reference to your former famous SSC signature?


----------



## CNGL

Nope, it's my way of saying "never". Currently works on one section (The most difficult one) haven't restarted yet.


----------



## verreme

verreme said:


> Video coming soon . I filmed the whole AP-7 from C-33 (Barcelona) to the French border. It will all be published next week.
> 
> Girona bypass is indeed 2x4.


As promised, here's the first part (Barcelona to C-35 interchange in Maçanet). Maçanet-France will follow soon.


----------



## Reivajar

^^ Thanks!!! Great videos.

In Spain there is always sunny weather = WRONG
The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain = WRONG 
:lol:

I thought they had updated the sign on the AP-7 marking Perpignan instead of Francia/França.


----------



## verreme

^^ No. They should sign Perpignan and Montpellier, considering that Barcelona is signed all the way from Marseille, and not just in A9! I've also seen it signed on N113 in Salon de Provence. It just doesn't make sense to sign La Jonquera; it's a small town with little more importance than that of being close to the border. Foreigners are unlikely to know it.


----------



## Reivajar

verreme said:


> ^^ No. They should sign Perpignan and Montpellier, considering that Barcelona is signed all the way from Marseille, and not just in A9! I've also seen it signed on N113 in Salon de Provence. It just doesn't make sense to sign La Jonquera; it's a small town with little more importance than that of being close to the border. Foreigners are unlikely to know it.


Well Francia/França is far better than La Jonquera, that's for sure.

Even I've seen Barcelona (Barcelone) signposted on the Toulouse beltway and on the A61.

I am not sure which city I would signpost on the AP-7 northbound... Girona / Montpellier and later Perpignan/Montpellier would be ok as it is the criteria later used on the French A9.


----------



## alserrod

Reivajar said:


> Even I've seen Barcelona (Barcelone) signposted on the Toulouse beltway and on the A61.



And approaching to Bordeaux coming from Paris.
I think Toulouse-Montpellier-Barcelone....


----------



## Reivajar

alserrod said:


> And approaching to Bordeaux coming from Paris.
> I think Toulouse-Montpellier-Barcelone....


Wow, really? Do you have the location of that sign?


----------



## alserrod

No but I've driven there several times so I remember it.

They point St. Sebastien (right) and Barcelone (left) approaching to Bordeaux coming from Paris.

Saragosse is pointed near Bordeaux.


----------



## verreme

And here's the second part, featuring 2x4 Girona bypass and the 2x3 motorway until La Jonquera:


----------



## Reivajar

I didn't remember trucks were banned on the N-II. They could apply that enforcement on the N-II from Zaragoza to Fraga too... -_-


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## RV

But was there really a need for 2x4 on this stretch, what's the traffic volume? I mean, like Malagas Hiperronda with even 2x5 sections and an AADT of just 20 000-40 000


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## Reivajar

AADT on the AP-7 on the Girona bypass is between 33.000 (6.484 trucks/day) in the Southern part and 40.000 (7.137 truck/day) in the Northern part.

The highest AADT on the AP-7 within the province of Girona is around Maçanet (next to the provincial border with Barcelona) with almost 50.000 vehicles/day (9.699 trucks/day). The lowest AADT is on the Figueres bypass with 16.000 veh/day (4.483 truck/day). On the French border the AADT of the AP-7 is almost 29.000 veh/day (9.326 trucks/day).


----------



## RV

Reivajar said:


> AADT on the AP-7 on the Girona bypass is between 33.000 (6.484 trucks/day) in the Southern part and 40.000 (7.137 truck/day) in the Northern part.
> 
> The highest AADT on the AP-7 within the province of Girona is around Maçanet (next to the provincial border with Barcelona) with almost 50.000 vehicles/day (9.699 trucks/day). The lowest AADT is on the Figueres bypass with 16.000 veh/day (4.483 truck/day). On the French border the AADT of the AP-7 is almost 29.000 veh/day (9.326 trucks/day).


2x4 for 33 000 AADT is just ridiculous! Especially in this economical situation. 

2x3 is needed when AADT is 45 000-50 000 at least, 2x4 when it exceeds 120 000-130 000.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, it's built for summer peak traffic as well. You want value for tolls.


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## Reivajar

I haven't found separated information for summer months, but as comparison, for example the stretch Montmeló-Papiol got a AADT of 107.210 veh/day in 2011, but during July 2011 the AADT was 121.207 veh/day (+13%). So, if we extrapolate that proportion for Girona it would be around 37.290-45.200 veh/day. Maybe a bit higher as the northern part of the AP-7 got a higher influence from tourism.


----------



## verreme

Reivajar said:


> I didn't remember trucks were banned on the N-II. They could apply that enforcement on the N-II from Zaragoza to Fraga too... -_-


They are banned since this Spring.



RV said:


> 2x4 for 33 000 AADT is just ridiculous! Especially in this economical situation.
> 
> 2x3 is needed when AADT is 45 000-50 000 at least, 2x4 when it exceeds 120 000-130 000.


It's not ridiculous at all. Summer peaks can be much higher than 33.000 vpd; traffic in this motorway is highly seasonal. Plus, truck traffic is very high.

The enlargement to 2x4 was entirely paid with private money btw. Including the construction of the two new exits north and south of Girona. No public expense was involved.


----------



## arctic_carlos

I am not sure, but I would say that AP-7 Girona bypass is not fully operational yet, as a new interchange that will connect the motorway to the N-II north of the city is still under construction. Once it is ready, most vehicles currently using the N-II will begin to use the toll free AP-7 Girona bypass, and therefore there will be a traffic increase.


----------



## Reivajar

^^ By now, if I am on the N-II, I prefer to use the old east by-pass. As you say, if direct link are not provided, there is a really small save of time.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*traffic congestion in Spain*

Spain ranks the lowest in Europe among urban traffic congestion. Zaragoza is the least congested major urban area in Europe, with a travel time index (TTI) of 7%. By comparison, Moscow has the highest TTI of 65%. The TTI reflects the average delay per traveler without having the figures distorted by the size of a city.

The highest ranking Spanish urban area (= worst congestion) is Barcelona, which is the 44th most congested urban area in Europe with a TTI of 18%, followed by Palma de Mallorca at 17%.

All Spanish rankings;

44: Barcelona 18%
45: Palma de Mallorca 17%
51: Madrid 15%
53: Sevilla 14%
54: Murcia 13%
55: Valencia 12%
58: Málaga: 10%
59: Zaragoza 7%

http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/


----------



## arctic_carlos

I guess the results of Barcelona are related to its density and, above all, due to its geographical situation (between the sea and the mountains), which makes it complicated to build new roads. Other major Spanish cities (Madrid, Seville or Zaragoza) have the possibility of building as many ring roads as they need, as they have plenty of free space around them (if they have enough money, of course).

Anyway, Barcelona at least has one full ring road (Ronda de Dalt and Ronda Litoral), which is not common in other major seaside cities. The problem is that there is not enough space to build additional lanes, which is a cause of congestion in the stretch of the Ronda Litoral between Montjuic and the Olympic Village.


----------



## Reivajar

^^ That's true. The only city which slightly reminds me to Barcelona is Marseille.

On the other hand, a supposedly positive for Barcelona is a really easy streets network layout in most of the downtown area, which is supposed to help to handle traffic, but for some reason the congestion is worse (worse for the Spanish context, not for the rest of Europe).

About the Barcelona ringroads, it is a pity that Ronda Litoral was designed at a time than infrastructures were designed in completely different standards than today. On one hand I think that Ronda Litoral has a really amazing urban integration (probably among the best ones I've ever seen) but from the point of view of transit, it is small, and enlarging it can cost a fortune...

Anyway, as overall traffic congestion in Spain is quite small comparing with other European cities, considering as well that Spanish cities are much more compact (I am sure that the kind of more compact city planning used in Spain reduce the use of cars too).


----------



## verreme

^^ The expressway network of Barcelona is far better than the one of Marseille. Street layouts of both cities are different worlds. Car-wise, Barcelona has one of the best layouts in Europe. Only Valencia comes to mind as a city with similarly good traffic management in downtown.

I think these data should be compared to the cities' economic performance to get a better picture. For example, congestion in Barcelona's freeways dropped in about half since the beginning of the recession, due to a substantial decrease in traffic.



Reivajar said:


> By now, if I am on the N-II, I prefer to use the old east by-pass. As you say, if direct link are not provided, there is a really small save of time.


N-II bypass is steeper and has a long 80 km/h section. You can drive 120 km/h throughout the whole AP-7 bypass and will only have to stop at both toll gates. Worth it in my opinion.


----------



## slickman

alserrod said:


> No but I've driven there several times so I remember it.
> 
> They point St. Sebastien (right) and Barcelone (left) approaching to Bordeaux coming from Paris.
> 
> Saragosse is pointed near Bordeaux.


Never seen that :nuts:


----------



## Reivajar

verreme said:


> ^^ The expressway network of Barcelona is far better than the one of Marseille. Street layouts of both cities are different worlds. Car-wise, Barcelona has one of the best layouts in Europe. Only Valencia comes to mind as a city with similarly good traffic management in downtown.
> 
> I think these data should be compared to the cities' economic performance to get a better picture. For example, congestion in Barcelona's freeways dropped in about half since the beginning of the recession, due to a substantial decrease in traffic.
> 
> N-II bypass is steeper and has a long 80 km/h section. You can drive 120 km/h throughout the whole AP-7 bypass and will only have to stop at both toll gates. Worth it in my opinion.



When I was comparing Barcelona with Marseille I was refering only to the geographical situation and topography. Marseille is as well a coastal city surrounded by mountains and with a small coastal plain.

On bypassing Girona maybe you are right, but just for the fact of not stopping twice, I just keep my way on the N-II. :lol:


----------



## Blackraven

ChrisZwolle said:


> Spain ranks the lowest in Europe among urban traffic congestion. Zaragoza is the least congested major urban area in Europe, with a travel time index (TTI) of 7%. By comparison, Moscow has the highest TTI of 65%. The TTI reflects the average delay per traveler without having the figures distorted by the size of a city.
> 
> The highest ranking Spanish urban area (= worst congestion) is Barcelona, which is the 44th most congested urban area in Europe with a TTI of 18%, followed by Palma de Mallorca at 17%.
> 
> All Spanish rankings;
> 
> 44: Barcelona 18%
> 45: Palma de Mallorca 17%
> 51: Madrid 15%
> 53: Sevilla 14%
> 54: Murcia 13%
> 55: Valencia 12%
> 58: Málaga: 10%
> 59: Zaragoza 7%
> 
> http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/


This is great to hear that there is little-to-no vehicular traffic in Spain.

This helps especially in the future especially if I need to drive between Spain (Madrid Capital City) and Gibraltar. :banana:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's also notable that Madrid has by far the lowest congestion level of any major metropolitan area (5 million+ people) in the OECD with a TTI of 15%. The nearest competitors, Washington, Toronto & Melbourne, have a TTI of 27%, which is nearly double the Madrid rate.


----------



## adevahi

Blackraven said:


> This is great to hear that there is little-to-no vehicular traffic in Spain.
> 
> This helps especially in the future especially if I need to drive between Spain (Madrid Capital City) and Gibraltar. :banana:


From Sevilla to Cadiz (100km) you have to pay toll-motorway or suffer traffic. and in the entrance of Gibraltar (in the streets of La Linea de la Concepcion) will be surely a lot of traffic too. The rest are highways not-congestionated


----------



## Reivajar

^^ As well, there is another option through Málaga and the freeway A-7 along the coast. Not that comfortable than the tolled AP-7, but as well it is possible.


----------



## alserrod

Blackraven said:


> This is great to hear that there is little-to-no vehicular traffic in Spain.
> 
> This helps especially in the future especially if I need to drive between Spain (Madrid Capital City) and Gibraltar. :banana:


If you come from Madrid or from any border in the north except the Mediterranean, that would be the faster way. You will have a peaceful journey almost until the coast. 

After driving 50 southern Madrid you'll have about 200 km absolutely flat and be careful with speed because you can be seriously fined. There was a time I had to travel every month in that area and at every time I watched a car stopped because a speed fine.

You'll enter in Andalucia in a quite new motorway (have a look to google maps, old and new one) and later keep quiet until the coast.

It will be where you will have to choose between tolled motorway or free motorway. Obviously quite peaceful the tolled one.

But arriving to La Linea can be difficult (it won't be a motorway but a road inside a town, with roundabouts and streets. Later taking out Spain can take your time and getting in again would be a really nightmare.

If you are quite interested you can think in parking near the border, crossing on foot and getting a Gibraltar bus, as far as one line approach until the customs.
If you do not carry baggage, high speed train can be a nice option.

And if you wanna fly, apart of Gibraltar airport you may consider Malaga airport.


----------



## Blackraven

Hehe thanks for the replies.

Anyways, here's what Google Maps would usually suggest

Suggested routes
A-4
664 km, 6 hours 12 mins In current traffic: 6 hours 19 mins

A) Spain

1. Head southeast on M-30 toward Exit 23 B	
9.6 km

2. Keep right to continue on Av. del Manzanares	
1.5 km

3. Take exit 12 to merge onto A-4 toward Córdoba	
283 km

4. Take exit 292 to merge onto E-902/A-44 toward Jaén/Granada/Málaga	
119 km

5. Take exit 118 to merge onto A-92 toward Málaga/Algeciras/N-432/Córdoba/aeropuerto	
63.4 km

6. Take exit 177 to merge onto A-92M toward Málaga	
25.1 km

7. Keep left at the fork, follow signs for AP-46/A-45/Málaga and merge onto A-45	
2.4 km

8. Take exit 116 on the left to merge onto AP-46 toward Málaga/Algeciras/Almería
Toll road
24.3 km

9. Take the exit toward A-7
Toll road
62 m

10. Keep right at the fork to continue toward A-7
Toll road
200 m

11. Keep left at the fork and merge onto A-7
Partial toll road
28.2 km

12. Continue onto AP-7
Partial toll road
81.8 km

13. Continue onto A-7
Partial toll road
14.1 km

14. Take exit 119 toward San Roque (Este)/La Linea/CA-34/Gibraltar	
220 m

15. Turn right toward CA-34	
850 m

16. Take the ramp to San Roque	
200 m

17. Continue straight	
280 m

18. Slight right onto CA-34
Go through 1 roundabout
2.8 km

19. At the roundabout, take the 2nd exit	
350 m

20. Continue straight onto Callejón del Moro	
18 m

21. Continue straight onto Calle Real	
1.4 km

22. Continue onto Av. de España
Go through 3 roundabouts
1.4 km

23. At the roundabout, take the 1st exit onto Av. Príncipe de Asturias
Go through 1 roundabout
850 m

24. At the roundabout, take the 1st exit 
500 m

25. Slight right toward Winston Churchill Avenue
Entering Gibraltar
400 m

26. Continue straight onto Winston Churchill Avenue
Go through 1 roundabout
1.0 km

27. At the roundabout, take the 1st exit onto Line Wall Road
Go through 1 roundabout
800 m

28. Turn left onto John Mackintosh Square	
100 m

29. Turn left onto Main Street	
17 m

B) Gibraltar


----------



## alserrod

Can you post it as a google maps link or so? 

Just press in the link button and copy the URL


----------



## RV

arctic_carlos said:


> I guess the results of Barcelona are related to its density and, above all, due to its geographical situation (between the sea and the mountains), which makes it complicated to build new roads. Other major Spanish cities (Madrid, Seville or Zaragoza) have the possibility of building as many ring roads as they need, as they have plenty of free space around them (if they have enough money, of course).
> 
> Anyway, Barcelona at least has one full ring road (Ronda de Dalt and Ronda Litoral), which is not common in other major seaside cities. The problem is that there is not enough space to build additional lanes, which is a cause of congestion in the stretch of the Ronda Litoral between Montjuic and the Olympic Village.


Harmfully they destroyed the inner ringroad.


----------



## verreme

Catalan regional government has proposed widening C-16 between Berga and Bagà with a moving barrier which could change the configuration of the road depending on the day. C-16 is a road that depends highly on tidal traffic, as it is one of the few main road connections between Barcelona and Andorra and ski resorts in the Pyrenees. They say that the whole operation of moving the (21-kilometer) could be done in 2 hours and with no interruption of traffic flow. There will also be a physical widening, but it will only add one lane (though I am wondering what will they do with the narrow tunnels).

There was a proposal to build a motorway there, but it has been deemed too expensive (€700 million). At around 100 million, this one looks better value for money, considering that traffic is only too high (20.000 vehicles per day) certain Fridays and Sundays. Some weekends the road has been ocasionally widened to 2+1 lanes by placing cones on the roadway and moving one of the lanes into the shoulder.

Click to official press release (in Catalan).










Map

Link to project (PDF).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Iregua said:


> 11.5 new km of the A-15 from _Sauquillo del Campo_ to _Almazán (Sur)_ have been opened today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Magenta, a new colour for the Spanish rainbow of road numbers! It's also funny how the road number is longer than the town's name.
> 
> Sources:
> 
> http://sorianoticias.com/noticia/ad...re-al-trafico-tramo-autovia-almazan-sauquillo
> 
> http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...PRENSA/NOTICIAS1/2013/NOVIEMBRE/131129-07.htm


Are these road numbers longer or shorter than Spanish social security numbers? :lol: :nuts:


----------



## alserrod

Lol!

Spanish ID card number (the most used and same one in the passport) has eight numbers and one letter.
Really...not far!


----------



## Aokromes

ChrisZwolle said:


> Are these road numbers longer or shorter than Spanish social security numbers? :lol: :nuts:


Much shorter.










(Nº Afiliaccion a la S.S)


----------



## verreme

^^ _Afiliación_


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Are these road numbers longer or shorter than Spanish social security numbers? :lol: :nuts:


:rofl: Of course they are shorter. But I regularly drive on HU-V-5231 :nuts:.

Anyway, our current numbering system is a real mess. I want to bring back the old system C roads.


----------



## Reivajar

Apart of the numbering system itself, there was a former "rule" on the _autovías_ and _autopistas _signage which states that on _autovías_ and _autovías _information panels only road numbers of the same class (it means, other _autovías _and _autopistas_) should be shown, and not any lower class road such as national or county roads. In those cases, only town names should be shown.


----------



## alserrod

Wanna more?

Fuerteventura island

Four main rodas
FV-1 from the capital to the northern side of the island
FV-2 from the capital to the southern side of the island
FV-3 capital half-orbital road
FV-4 little branch to a main town in the island

All in red, except two little streches 2x2 where they are in blue (even if top speed is 90 I think)

Five different roads from the capital or the eastern coast (most of population) to inner or western coast: FV-10, FV-20, FV-30, FV-50 and FV-56

All in green

A lot of local roads to go from village to village or so... all of them in yellow and three digits.

FV-XXX

https://maps.google.es/?ll=28.268706,-14.085159&spn=0.176588,0.338173&t=h&z=12

What the ****!!!!... an island with three digit roads and (except main ones) impossible to remember the number of their roads.



Wanna more. Just go north to the island of Lanzarote

The SAME case

LZ-1 from capital to north
LZ-2 to south
LZ-3 half-orbital

several green LZ-XX to inner island

A lot of yellow LZ-XXX inside the island


(furthermore according to google maps once I saw Corralejo - Playa Blanca ferry service as "driving in the FV-1, not in the LZ-2 but FV-1)


----------



## Peines

Bitch please


----------



## rpc08

^^ I personally think this one's better:

https://maps.google.es/?ll=41.80116...=GOuq2UoGqDOdMNOr6zmSLQ&cbp=12,255.91,,1,6.55 :troll:


----------



## alserrod

Wow!!!!!!!

Let me ask in a concrete thread about it...


----------



## alserrod

Wow!!!!!!!

Let me ask in a concrete thread about it...


----------



## CNGL

Peines said:


> Bitch please


It's RM-313 now.



rpc08 said:


> ^^ I personally think this one's better:
> 
> https://maps.google.es/?ll=41.80116...=GOuq2UoGqDOdMNOr6zmSLQ&cbp=12,255.91,,1,6.55 :troll:


Nice find! I wasn't aware of A14R2 :nuts:


----------



## adevahi

Reivajar said:


> Apart of the numbering system itself, there was a former "rule" on the autovías and autopistas signage which states that on *autovías and autovías* information panels only road numbers of the same class (it means, other autovías and autopistas) should be shown, and not any lower class road such as national or county roads. In those cases, only town names should be shown.


Apart of autovías and autovías, also on autopistas, I suppose


----------



## Carretero

Here you have more strange examples of numbering in Spanish roads:

"National" roads *E-22, E-23* and *E-25* ("E" for "Enlace") connecting A-2 and N-II in Lleida:
http://goo.gl/maps/rYDO7
http://goo.gl/maps/bbMRk
http://goo.gl/maps/dZhh0 (this is E-25 but I could not find a sign)

National road *N-1411* connecting N-260 and C-16 near Andorra (National road numbers should have only 3 digits)
http://goo.gl/maps/JDPWA

Autovía *A-5/1*, spur of M-40 that connects A-5 and M-40:
http://goo.gl/maps/snFuV


----------



## Reivajar

adevahi said:


> Apart of autovías and autovías, also on autopistas, I suppose


Yes, as well on _autopistas_.


----------



## ILTarantino

Iregua said:


> 11.5 new km of the A-15 from _Sauquillo del Campo_ to _Almazán (Sur)_ have been opened today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Magenta, a new colour for the Spanish rainbow of road numbers! *It's also funny how the road number is longer than the town's name.*
> 
> Sources:
> 
> http://sorianoticias.com/noticia/ad...re-al-trafico-tramo-autovia-almazan-sauquillo
> 
> http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...PRENSA/NOTICIAS1/2013/NOVIEMBRE/131129-07.htm


Centenera del Campo has 11 (eleven :nuts inhabitants, and Coscurita 112 :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:


----------



## CNGL

Carretero said:


> Here you have more strange examples of numbering in Spanish roads:
> 
> "National" roads *E-22, E-23* and *E-25* ("E" for "Enlace") connecting A-2 and N-II in Lleida:
> http://goo.gl/maps/rYDO7
> http://goo.gl/maps/bbMRk
> http://goo.gl/maps/dZhh0 (this is E-25 but I could not find a sign)


Euro roads? No, link roads!  :troll: There is also E-10 and E-20 in Ibiza/Eivissa.



Carretero said:


> National road *N-1411* connecting N-260 and C-16 near Andorra (National road numbers should have only 3 digits)
> http://goo.gl/maps/JDPWA


This was formerly C-1411. Regional roads (C-xxx) could have had an extra digit if every 3 digit number was already taken, always following the rule of odd=radial, even=transversal. The most extreme case was C-3331 in Malaga and Cadiz provinces.

By the way, if they wanted to put a new N-road between A-6 and A-1, starting between 200 and 300 km away from Madrid and radiating up to the coast, since N-621, N-623, N-625, N-627 and N-629 all exist it would be numbered N-6211.



Carretero said:


> Autovía *A-5/1*, spur of M-40 that connects A-5 and M-40:
> http://goo.gl/maps/snFuV


How about M-22? Signed as a motorway, yet is a regular road! http://goo.gl/maps/7chSK

And to top it out: Both MA-20 and Ma-20 exist! And how I can forget A-231 and, erm, A-231 .

PS:


ILTarantino said:


> Centenera del Campo has 11 (eleven :nuts inhabitants, and Coscurita 112 :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:


Luckily they don't sign Illán de Vacas off E90. It has a couple, literally, inhabitants.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, they must be served by it, the old N-111 was entirely absorbed into A-15.


----------



## Reivajar

ChrisZwolle said:


> Well, they must be served by it, the old N-111 was entirely absorbed into A-15.


Not really absorbed. Still you can drive on the N-111 which runs parallel to the new motorway.


----------



## Iregua

The A-11 Tordesillas-Zamora exists because someone had the idea that every province capital should be connected to the rest of the _autopista/autovía_ network. Let's see the AADT figures:

A-11 Tordesillas-Zamora (66 km): 6,000-4,500
A-15 Medinaceli-Soria (67 km): ~4,500
A-40 Tarancón-Cuenca (78 km): 3,800-4,900
A-58 Trujillo-Cáceres (48 km): 5,000-7,800
AP-51 Villacastín-Ávila (24 km): 6,700
AP-61 San Rafael-Segovia (28 km): 6,000

All of them carry below 10k vpd, some of them even below 5k. Such traffic levels are even lower than most of the "R" tolled roads, which are bankrupt now :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, it's not just the volumes. The construction cost is very low and the safety benefits are huge. Spain is the only country in southern Europe that has a fatality rate substantially below EU average, thanks to the large autovía network. If they wanted to improve safety they also could've built a 2+1 road with median and interchanges, but those cost almost as much as a full autovía, so if there is a choice between those two, the autovía is not a weird solution.


----------



## Iregua

Sure, there has been a great improvement in road safety in Spain, but there are other factors to take into account, such as the point system or the raising awareness regarding road safety. In some other countries, deaths have also decreased significantly since 2001 (source, page 117), despite the fact that they haven't built so many motorways  Besides, let's not forget that there are some specific roads with a relatively high concentration of accidents, many of which are parallel to tolled motorways: The N-I Burgos-Miranda, N-II Zaragoza-Fraga, N-IV Sevilla-Jerez, N-232 Zaragoza-Logroño, N-340 Valencia-Barcelona or the N-550 in Galicia... I'm sure death rates were higher there than in the routes Tordesillas -Zamora, Trujillo-Cáceres and so on, and perhaps it would've been cheaper to solve the problem as the motorways, though tolled, were already built.



ChrisZwolle said:


> a 2+1 road with median and interchanges, but those cost almost as much as a full autovía


In the cases I mentioned the old national roads were quite good, only a few bypasses to avoid crossing villages, plus refurbishing some intersections, would've been enough.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I tend to believe that the largest factor in car-related deaths decrease is due to more recent cars having better (passive or active) safety systems. In Italy, people drive worse than 20 years ago.


----------



## Reivajar

Well, I think all those factors need to be considered in the equation.

Nevertheless, one of the biggest improvement in death rate on Spanish roads was in the early 90's when the first generation of _autovías _was built.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The most dangerous roads are those that have one lane each way, carry a substantial amount of truck traffic and long-distance traffic. This is exactly the type of roads that have been bypassed by new autovías.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Well, it's not just the volumes. The construction cost is very low and the safety benefits are huge. Spain is the only country in southern Europe that has a fatality rate substantially below EU average, thanks to the large autovía network. If they wanted to improve safety they also could've built a 2+1 road with median and interchanges, but those cost almost as much as a full autovía, so if there is a choice between those two, the autovía is not a weird solution.




Furthermore, some of these little motorways, when have been enlarged and connected importand cities or "road hubs" have got traffic increased (and decreasing traffic over most used motorways)


----------



## Iregua

ChrisZwolle said:


> The most dangerous roads are those that have one lane each way, carry a substantial amount of truck traffic and long-distance traffic. This is exactly the type of roads that have been bypassed by new autovías.


Well, almost all types of roads have been bypassed by new autovías 

I've added the share of truck traffic in the toll-free autovías I mentioned before (in Spain, as we all know, trucks avoid tolls):
A-11 Tordesillas-Zamora (66 km): 6,000-4,500 - 14%
A-15 Medinaceli-Soria (67 km): ~4,500 - 12% to 36% :shocked:
A-40 Tarancón-Cuenca (78 km): 3,800-4,900 - 9%
A-58 Trujillo-Cáceres (48 km): 5,000-7,800 - 7%

Compare with:
N-I Burgos-Miranda: 9,000 - 48%
N-II Zaragoza-Fraga: 9,000 - 66% :shocked: :shocked:
N-232 Zaragoza-Tudela: 12,000 - 53%
N-340 north of Vinaròs: 13,500 - 32%


----------



## alserrod

Iregua said:


> Compare with:
> N-I Burgos-Miranda: 9,000 - 48%
> N-II Zaragoza-Fraga: 9,000 - 66% :shocked: :shocked:
> N-232 Zaragoza-Tudela: 12,000 - 53%
> N-340 north of Vinaròs: 13,500 - 32%




Two out of four!!! :nuts::nuts::nuts:

Am I unlucky?


----------



## disbesa

Otur-Villapedre, 9,3 Km. long in A-8, Autovía del Cantábrico, Asturias region. Opened this last Monday.

http://youtu.be/TGBm3ZLa1QQ
http://youtu.be/7s3F7vCdQiA


----------



## alserrod

A rock fall-down has caused 8 km jam in the N-330 / E-7 in Canfranc, quite close to Somport tunnel.


----------



## CNGL

The rockslide happened at kmpost 666 :devil:. Now that was... evil.


----------



## alserrod

First strech between Salamanca and Portuguese border has been authorised to have a building contract

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...PRENSA/NOTICIAS1/2013/DICIEMBRE/131227-07.htm


----------



## RV

alserrod said:


> First strech between Salamanca and Portuguese border has been authorised to have a building contract
> 
> http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...PRENSA/NOTICIAS1/2013/DICIEMBRE/131227-07.htm


AADT expects, how much? Madrid has plenty of radial routes that have huge congestion problems because of lack of capacity (A-5 Mostoles-Navalcarnero, A-3 to Arganda...), and nothing is being done about that...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Because Madrid has some bottlenecks, nothing is allowed to be constructed elsewhere?

€ 24 million is 1.1% of the annual Fomento road budget and will likely not being spend in one budget year anyway.


----------



## alserrod

Furthermore... it is the only stretch from Lisbon to anywhere without motorway

Have you looked on a map?


----------



## Reivajar

RV said:


> AADT expects, how much? Madrid has plenty of radial routes that have huge congestion problems because of lack of capacity (A-5 Mostoles-Navalcarnero, A-3 to Arganda...), and nothing is being done about that...


For that stretch on the A-62, around 6.281 veh/day and 38% of heavy traffic.

Madrid has an over-designed network of motorways. There are some really particular points which get easily saturated specially in peak hours, but the overview is that you have ton of motorways: the parallel tolled motorways which double the A-2, A-3, A-4, A-42 and A-5 freeways + two full orbital expressways (M-30 even if the northern part is an urban boulevard, and M-40) and two partial orbital expressways (M-45 and M-50) + many other regional expressways and regional dual carriageways all around the metropolitan area.

Why do you think that Madrid need more motorways? Just with some particular works on those limiting stretches (A-5 in Móstoles, A-3 in Rivas, A-1 in Alcobendas or the exchange A-6 X M-50) would be enough for improving traffic in peak hours.


----------



## adevahi

There are news about SE-40.Talking about the needs or not of Madrid, before anyone say something about the needs of Sevilla is important to know that the 3rd and 4th section of SE-40 are not only important, they are IMPRESCINDIBLE.

This new talks about "two parts of the highway", but both belongs to the 3rd section of SE-40.

http://www.abcdesevilla.es/sevilla/20131227/sevi-aprobados-millones-autovia-se40-201312271653.html



> Government has autorised this friday buildings contract for 94.9 millions € for the construction of two parts of the highway SE-40, between the municipalities of Alcalá de Guadaíra and Dos Hermanas, both in the province of Sevilla. The first part, 4.1km long, goes from A-376 (Sevilla-Utrera) in Alcalá de Guadaíra to the N-IV in Dos Hermanas. The cost of the building contract is 32.2 millions.
> Second part, of 4km, goes from N-IV in Dos Hermanas until the link with A-4, with a cost of 62.7 million.
> According to the references, it is about giving Sevilla a new ringroad that let to the long-distance traffic to avoid the SE-30


----------



## RV

6800 is not enough for a motorway specially in this economical situation. A good 1+1-laned road with grade-separated intersections is sufficient. I think there are enough motorways from Lisbon to much more important Spanish cities.

What I was saying about Madrid, was that that sections need widening.

And yes, SE-40 (without Hiperronda-type overdesigning though) is imprescindible.


----------



## Reivajar

RV said:


> 6800 is not enough for a motorway specially in this economical situation. A good 1+1-laned road with grade-separated intersections is sufficient. I think there are enough motorways from Lisbon to much more important Spanish cities.
> 
> What I was saying about Madrid, was that that sections need widening.
> 
> And yes, SE-40 (without Hiperronda-type overdesigning though) is imprescindible.


Well, it is just for finishing the motorway, and around 3 or 4 km are needed in the Spanish side. It is not a big thing.

About the widening in Madrid, actually, some of them are planned and under construction.


----------



## alserrod

First of all, improving motorways. In the 1990s there were no motorways at all and first of them built were quite bad. They were called "first generation motorways" and recently refurbished.

Building new motorways and improving other roads made too much.

But in 2006 the point driving licence made a lot of effort too!. It is known that average speed on motorways decreased 7 km/h in a couple of months after that point system.

Obviously, safer cars helps to decrease fatalities cases.


----------



## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> First of all, improving motorways. In the 1990s there were no motorways at all and first of them built were quite bad. They were called "first generation motorways" and recently refurbished.
> 
> Building new motorways and improving other roads made too much.
> 
> But in 2006 the point driving licence made a lot of effort too!. It is known that average speed on motorways decreased 7 km/h in a couple of months after that point system.
> 
> Obviously, safer cars helps to decrease fatalities cases.


But better motorways and better cars can hardly change the "culture", as RV said. Maybe the point system can, it was introduced in Italy too and it somewhat helped, but here the driving culture was and still is terrible.


----------



## alserrod

point licence made too much but not all and I still see crazy drivers.

Maybe more images on TV. On holidays season TV news offer a deal of crazy drivers spotted from police helicopters (and fined). Just enough to take the top10 to avoid a lot of people to repeat it...


----------



## SeanT

We can make all those different systems/rules, but at the and is "our" way of thinking towards speeding, alcohol, drogs, etc. must be changed. 
Otherwise, all the efforts will only be limited!


----------



## alserrod

Regarding about alcohol, law got quite more strict about 10 years ago or so. Since then, several things have happened in the Spanish society.
First of all, there is no regulation about alcohol on road side areas (to my best knowledgement, in France, it is only served with main courses on meals) but there were several tendencies to consum less wine at first and later less wine and higher price and quality (same cost). Therefore, restaurants started to offer more "small bottles". People knew they couldn't drink more than two wine glasses if they had to drive so no need to open a complete bottle. The concept of taking your bottle away the restaurant, which was quite common in several countries, didn't exist in Spain at all and... it started to exist.
Furthermore, it was quite usual for restaurants to offer "wine glasses" instead of bottles. Maybe you were driving and wanted ONLY ONE glass, no more. They had two or three wine marks to offer you. Bottles already opened and offered just for a glass at meal. Quite cheaper than opening a bottle and no problems with alcohol.


It is only one detail, there are several more but something has been changing year to year in Spanish society.


----------



## sponge_bob

solchante said:


> a graphic of traffic fatalities since 1960:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source


So it would be fair to say that (from the peak) 3000 of the reduction in fatalities* is structural*.

1. Enforcement
2. Education and Driving culture.
3. Improved vehicle safety and

4. Much better roads. 

Of the remainder I suspect that the fatality numbers will rise to nearer ( but not above) 2000 per annum after an economic recovery and it is not structural but temporary. 

The UK which has heavy enforcement, lots of cameras and policing, had 1700 deaths in the last reported year ( to March 2013), same as Spain pretty much. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...s-great-britain-provisional-estimates-q1-2013

So it is hard to see where Spain could improve matters much.

A heatwave in July/August would kill as many EXCESS people per week as die on the roads every year and I don't hear any talk of getting air conditioning to the poor old people most at risk.


----------



## Reivajar

From 2007, fuel consumption has been reduced a 15% aproximately. 

In 2007 there were 2731 fatalities in Spain. So the reduction in this period has been around a 60%, it means, fatalities has gone down four times faster than the traffic in the same period. 

Even, with an improvement of economics in the country, and a reduction of unemployment, I think consider an upper limit of 1500 fatalities per year is kind of feasible.


----------



## g.spinoza

Is fuel consumption a good proxy for traffic? There are lots of other variables involved (speed, improved mileage per liter of cars...)


----------



## Reivajar

^^ Sure, you're right. But for measuring the use of vehicles is not that bad either.

Anyway, considering the overall available data, probably the reduction of traffic is smaller than a 15%, so there is even a weaker relation between reduction on traffic fatalities and reduction of traffic in general.


----------



## sponge_bob

In fairness to Iberian drivers I never found them to be really scary compared to Italian or Greek drivers and I was driving in Spain, on occasion, in the 1980s and 1990s.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Also note that Spain gained about 9 million people (20%) since 1990, this is quite unlike most other European countries which have a stagnant population. In that light, the steep decline in fatalities is even more impressive.


----------



## Stahlsturm

sponge_bob said:


> A heatwave in July/August would kill as many EXCESS people per week as die on the roads every year and I don't hear any talk of getting air conditioning to the poor old people most at risk.


Stop putting numbers in relation, you are upsetting the regulation nazis


----------



## verreme

^^ IMO, I haven't seen a huge change in Spanish driving culture in the latter years. Sure that some things have changed, but we never were Italy. Overtaking where's not permitted, ignoring red lights or systematically turning right or left where it's forbidden has never been common in Spain. Drinking and driving is still a big problem in rural areas (local holidays where everyone gets blackout drunk), though "respectable" people (bus/truck drivers, family men, grandads) don't do it anymore (it was part of our popular culture to have a drink after the meal when on a roadtrip). Speeding is still there, and in some motorways it's easy to be overtaken at 200+, especially in summer with all that many French/German/Dutch-registered drivers thinking this is Africa.

Basically, I don't think driving behavior is the key factor, but it has sure played a big role. The whole country has changed a lot since 1990. There are no more 1970s buses with no maintenance losing their brakes, no more old, narrow roads with slippery tarmac and random signage being the main link between important cities, and certainly stuff like driving with three glasses of wine and a shot of liquor at 4pm after a meal is not common anymore.


----------



## RV

g.spinoza said:


> How did Spain achieve this? Enforcement? I don't remember seeing any police patrol or devices during my 4 thousand km trip in Spain two years ago.


Europalization!  I saw back in 2000 donkeys on roads, and they were not tourist attraction! Back in 2000 you could easily get vomit from eating in restaurants etc, Spain improved in all sectors dramatically during 2000-2010!


----------



## g.spinoza

verreme said:


> ^^ IMO, I haven't seen a huge change in Spanish driving culture in the latter years. Sure that some things have changed, but we never were Italy. Overtaking where's not permitted, ignoring red lights or systematically turning right or left where it's forbidden has never been common in Spain.


Now, Italy has problems bur let's not generalize. 99.99% of red light are respected, maybe less in, say, Naples and surprisingly in Turin.


----------



## arctic_carlos

Fixed radars have also contributed to the general reduction of speed and also to the reduction of the number of fatalities.


----------



## sponge_bob

g.spinoza said:


> Now, Italy has problems bur let's not generalize.


Of course. 

Italy had 7 151 road deaths in 1990 and reduced that by 2011 to 3 860 or a 46% reduction off a population of 60.6m in 2011. (source IRTAD 2013 page 240)

Spain had 9 032 road deaths in 1990 and reduced that by 2011 to 2000 deaths or a 77% reduction off a population of 46.1m in 2011 (source IRTAD 2013 page 392) 

Note. I think Spain had a population of around 35m in 1990 too. Spain for many years inferred deaths from injuries rather than actually count them, the statistical method changed in 2007 and that may account for the difference in the graph up the page ( 6000 deaths ) and the 9000 deaths IRTAD have, that would be a 65% drop not a 77% drop of course.


----------



## Aokromes

RV said:


> Back in 2000 you could easily get vomit from eating in restaurants etc, Spain improved in all sectors dramatically during 2000-2010!


I never have vomited because eat on restaurants on my near 40 years, not even on mcdonalds.


----------



## verreme

RV said:


> Europalization!  I saw back in 2000 donkeys on roads, and they were not tourist attraction! Back in 2000 you could easily get vomit from eating in restaurants etc, Spain improved in all sectors dramatically during 2000-2010!


Back in 2000 there were no donkeys on the road nor did people systematically vomit after eating in restaurants. We already were an EU-standard country back then.

Road-wise, the turning point arrived in the late 1980s, when first-generation _autovías_ started construction and other roads started to be refurbished.



g.spinoza said:


> Now, Italy has problems bur let's not generalize. 99.99% of red light are respected, maybe less in, say, Naples and surprisingly in Turin.


Sorry, I actually didn't want to make a connection between the two points.


----------



## g.spinoza

sponge_bob said:


> Note. I think Spain had a population of around 35m in 1990 too. *Spain for many years inferred deaths from injuries rather than actually count them, the statistical method changed in 2007 *and that may account for the difference in the graph up the page ( 6000 deaths ) and the 9000 deaths IRTAD have, that would be a 65% drop not a 77% drop of course.


That's quite interesting. Do you mean that deaths were considered as a fixed fraction of the injured throughout the years, or something more sophisticated was used? Was this made to account for those not dead-on-the-spot?


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## Escargot

As soon as possible, do you mean? :lol:


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## alserrod

of course (asap) but... to my best knowledge, after expiring the environment approval report they had a period to ask for an extra time and no need to start again

OMG


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## Escargot

What day did radars start to be called "environment approvals"?


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## alserrod

I do not know... but environment approval was on January 2008 as has heard on radio


----------



## Escargot

A motorway would be an environmental disaster. Poor autoctonous bushes, with their cameras and their flashes...


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## ChrisZwolle

A 5 year validity is quite short for an EIS.


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## CNGL

It was approved in 2007, not 2008. And we are already in 2014, not 2013. So, seven years.

This section is notorious due to the speed cameras, the one at the top of the hill, heading towards Huesca, is well known due to the huge amount of fines it generates, thanks to its location just after a 70 km/h limit sign.


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## alserrod

Escargot said:


> A motorway would be an environmental disaster. Poor autoctonous bushes, with their cameras and their flashes...


Huesca by-pass (N-240) would be a second road only as you know. They will just avoid to cross Tierz


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## Escargot

Didn't you get the irony?


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-8, Galicia*

Two segments of A-8 will open to traffic next Monday: Mondoñedo - Lindín and Lindín - Careira


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## ChrisZwolle

Interesting situation, the AG-41 / future AG-47 interchange in Galicia. It ends at nothing.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Two segments of A-8 will open to traffic next Monday: Mondoñedo - Lindín and Lindín - Careira


Ministry press release

http://www.fomento.es/MFOM/LANG_CAS...NICACION/NOTICIAS1/2014/FEBRERO/140203-03.htm


Today all Galicians side in this motorway is completed and you can drive from Oviedo/Gijon to Lugo/La Coruña full motorway.

It is just pending something between Oviedo and Santander


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## Reivajar

^^ Yes, two consecutive sections: Pendueles-La Franca y La-Franca-Unquera, to be opened at the end of this year, and during 2015.

What I don't know is if works between Torrelavega and Solares (Santander outer by-pass) are going on.


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## MichiH

Reivajar said:


> What I don't know is if works between Torrelavega and Solares (Santander outer by-pass) are going on.


Should also be completed in 2015!?


----------



## Reivajar

MichiH said:


> Should also be completed in 2015!?


Not sure. I think they are on hold. It is not extremely critical as the continuity along the A-8 is assured through S-10/S-30 and A-67. You have just a bit longer way through the urban area of Santander but I think it is not that bad.


----------



## verreme

^^ Since the opening of S-30 there's no need to go through the narrow, congested A-67/S-10 in Santander (which are connected by a funky interchange). A-8 will only be a minor improvement. I think the corridor will be essentially complete when the Eastern Asturias stretches of A-8 are opened.


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## Autovia84

Hi I'm new register on this forum.

I like the motorways network in Spain. But sometimes, I don't undersdant spain gorvenement about transport policy.

I'll talk about the plan of N-II in the province of Girona :

*Section La Jonquera - Medinya (Nord of Girona) : In project
In this section they want to convert the N-II in autovia parallel to the AP-7. So the taffic in AP-7 will deacrease drastically

*Section Medinya - Fornells de la selva (South of Girona) : In service
This section corresponding to bypass of Girona city. The AP-7 and the A-2 are core with 4 lanes in each sens. Very great section for only 33000
The interchanges of Medinya is under construction until June 2014

*Section Fornells - Caldes : In service
2x2 lanes parallele to the AP-7

*Section Caldes - Sils : under construction
2x2 lanes parallele to the AP-7

*Section Sils - Maçanet : In project
Connexion to AP-7 and autovia C-35 to Costa Brava
2x2 lanes parallele to the AP-7


*Section Maçanet - Tordera (connexion to C-32) 
It is in this section that I was most disappointed. Instead of wasting money in the north with constrction of autovia parallel to autopista of 3 lanes for each sens. Fomento simply to normal road with correction of curve. No autovia for connection C32 and AP7. Big deception

Sorry for my english


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## Reivajar

Dismantlement of the Sabino Arana viaduct in Bilbao (A-8 ramp to San Mamés).

88159435


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## g.spinoza

^^ Very interesting! Will it be replaced by something else?


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## RV

How stupid. That viaduct was cool. Spain has also the green disease!


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## CNGL

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Very interesting! Will it be replaced by something else?


A new exit which serves the same area has been built further West. It includes some tunnels.


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## sponge_bob

RV said:


> How stupid. That viaduct was cool. Spain has also the green disease!


Bilbao was bypassed to the south ...._*first*_. Openstreetmap shows the up to date arrangement.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/43.2705/-2.9756


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## RV

And what will be in this place in the future? A 1+1-laned street with trees? I just don't get greens. The viaduct was awesome.


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## sponge_bob

It was a major motorway through a city, it was decided to bypass the city with a new motorway and then reduce the considerable impact of the old motorway on the City...eg by demolishing flyovers in residential areas like that one. Not like Helsinki where the Greens want to demolish the existing motorway before there is a bypass of the city. 

The project in question, the "Supersur", will end up costing €2bn by the time they finish it, whenever that is. Bilbao is a long thin urban strip between mountains and the sea so the full bypass will be around 40km long, mainly in tunnels or on viaducts and only the middle section of the bypass is finished so far with lots more to do at either end.


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## alserrod

A-3 and A-7 junction in Valencia has been totally refurbished and opened to traffic. It was part of the refurbishment project in the A-7 indeed 


Press release

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...MUNICACION/NOTICIAS1/2014/MARZO/140306-01.htm


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## ChrisZwolle

Here's a Google Earth screenshot of the (nearly completed) interchange in October 2012.









Changes;

* A-7 widened to 2x3 through lanes
* flyovers to unweave traffic from a nearby exit to the industrial area

I don't understand what the little object in the northeast quadrant of the interchange is for. The loop will obviously be routed across it, but what does it cross? It's too large for drainage, but too small for an underpass. There wasn't one prior to this construction.


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## alserrod

I do not know it too. Maybe someone of that city could explain it


----------



## RV

sponge_bob said:


> It was a major motorway through a city, it was decided to bypass the city with a new motorway and then reduce the considerable impact of the old motorway on the City...eg by demolishing flyovers in residential areas like that one. Not like Helsinki where the Greens want to demolish the existing motorway before there is a bypass of the city.
> 
> The project in question, the "Supersur", will end up costing €2bn by the time they finish it, whenever that is. Bilbao is a long thin urban strip between mountains and the sea so the full bypass will be around 40km long, mainly in tunnels or on viaducts and only the middle section of the bypass is finished so far with lots more to do at either end.


Youre right about Helsinki, but why to demolish this when you have it already and pay 2 billions? Seems not smart to me. Spain is full of all kind of "Supersur's" of 5+5 lanes which by AADT could be given to the mules. They don't serve urban traffic.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Supersur doesn't work for two reasons; 1) tolls and 2) GPSs. It must be shorter and toll free. Currently only people who want to avoid a few congested hours on A-8 will use it, and people who enter it by accident.


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## Reivajar

^^ It's the problem of many new toll motorways which runs parallel to older freeways. They are only slightly usefull in peak hours on the freeway... and not always.

Exactly the same situation with the toll motorways in Madrid: longer and more expensive.


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## RV

So a total waste of money to construct a new "Hiperronda" in the middle of the hills and demolish a good viaduct to put a street that gets congested daily in it's place. Alicante new by-pass is a good example with 4000 users daily.


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## Aokromes

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Supersur doesn't work for two reasons; 1) tolls and 2) GPSs. It must be shorter and toll free. Currently only people who want to avoid a few congested hours on A-8 will use it, and people who enter it by accident.


In fact a much more important is 3) no direct link to AP 8 nor AP 68.


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## verreme

Aokromes said:


> In fact a much more important is 3) no direct link to AP 8 nor AP 68.


It's essentially this. When the next stage of Supersur is complete, all transit traffic will be able to use it. It's not the case now.


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## ChrisZwolle

Aokromes said:


> In fact a much more important is 3) no direct link to AP 8 nor AP 68.


You can easily access the Supersur from both routes. Even if they would extend the Supersur farther east it makes very little difference in driving distance, as it will be a duplication of the existing traffic flow.


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## Reivajar

RV said:


> So a total waste of money to construct a new "Hiperronda" in the middle of the hills and demolish a good viaduct to put a street that gets congested daily in it's place. Alicante new by-pass is a good example with 4000 users daily.



No, they are not related topics. On one hand you have the new Bilbao by-pass, the expensive new tolled motorway in the middle of the hills (called _Hiperronda_). On the other hand you have the refurbishment of the A-8 (first Bilbao southern by-pass), and as part of it, the modification of the access to San Mamés area. The demolished ramps have been replaced by a new junction further in the north supposedly less invasive into the urbanised area. 

If you check out the are on Google Maps and you switch from satellite view to map view you can see the two different situations. In the satellite pics you can see the former situation with the Sabino Arana viaduct (and not the new northern access built). On the map view you can see the new northern access to San Mamés close to the Basurto Hospital.


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## CNGL

Due to some change in the law last year the validity of the EIS for A-22 Sietamo-Huesca has been extended, so now tenders can proceed. AFAIK there are funds allocated for this section on current year.


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## alserrod

Just look to it in a map. For a Barcelona-Bilbao is as fast via Zaragoza or Huesca. For a Barcelona-Pampelune/Vitoria/S.Sebastian shorter via Huesca


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## CNGL

I'm pretty sure this is the only sign in the country with both Madrid and Barcelona in it (And my hometown as a bonus). I don't get why they sign Barcelona there, it is closer turning around in the next exit and crossing the ARA-A1 bridge.


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## Reivajar

^^ I know this one, and this one.


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## CNGL

Damnit, I forgot about the sign at the Southern end of E07 (I have seen it several times!). Didn't knew the one in Valencia. But at least mine is a distance sign.


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## Aokromes

ChrisZwolle said:


> You can easily access the Supersur from both routes. Even if they would extend the Supersur farther east it makes very little difference in driving distance, as it will be a duplication of the existing traffic flow.
> []http://i.imgur.com/AyycqJO.jpg[/IMG]


Well the problem there is that main traffic is routed to A8 and if you are looking to take AP-8 you need to take one very closed curve.

Also:










When they complete Ib phase for the traffic Barcelona-Asturias the AP-8 will be better than A-8


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## ChrisZwolle

I don't think the elimination of a loop ramp in an interchange will boost traffic volumes significantly though. 

It is well known that tolls are a huge deterrent to traffic using a toll road if there is a good untolled alternative, as there is in this case. The N-II between Zaragoza and Lleida is another case in point.


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## Reivajar

^^ The N-II between Zaragoza and Lleida is kind of horrible, not because the road itself, but becase the absurd amount of trucks which are avoiding the tolled motorway AP-2. In Spain it is not usual to force trucks to run on tolled routes as in France.


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## verreme

^^ They do it on N-II in Girona, and they are also planning a truck ban in N-340 across Tarragona province.


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## Reivajar

verreme said:


> ^^ They do it on N-II in Girona, and they are also planning a truck ban in N-340 across Tarragona province.


Yes. Probably they are the first stretches which apply that rule in Spain.


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## el palmesano

*MALLORCA*

Proposed route of the splitting of the Ma-19 variant from Llucmajor to Campos


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## verreme

Some news on roads in the Mediterranean coast:

The northern part of *A-7 around Valencia metro* will be expanded along 22,5 kilometers by expanding or adding collector lanes. A-7/V-30 interchange will be spectacular at 10 lanes plus on/off-ramps. I quote from the Spanish subforum:



serx said:


> En la web de Ginprosa, la consultora que según la noticia ha desarrollado el proyecto, se pueden ver dos fotos de cómo quedarán dos enlaces.
> 
> CV-35, con la ciudad deportiva:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Y el "pifostio" que van a liar en el enlace con la V-30:


Another road to be widened in the area will be *V-21 in the stretch closest to downtown Valencia*. Widening to 3+3 lanes from there to A-7 interchange was finished last year.

Also, *AP-7 between Valencia and Alicante* is closer to become toll-free when the current concession expires. For those who understand Spanish, the article includes a (surprisingly) historically accurate explanation of why this was one of the first motorways of Spain.

Other recent news story is the announcement of *HOV lanes along C-58* in Barcelona metro becoming two-way (with a central divider, I presume) and being open 24/7, though still restricted to HOV vehicles and motorcycles. Currently they are open southbound in the morning, northbound in the evening and closed at night. I guess this will knock down operation costs, as the roadway will not have to be opened and closed periodically.

Other relevant road projects in Catalonia are the *extension of C-32 to Lloret de Mar* and *Bescanó bypass of N-141*. These roads carry very heavy traffic through several towns and see substancial congestion, especially B-682/GI-682 in summer months. Works on C-32 East of Tordera will begin in 2015, with the opening forecasted for 2016, whilst Bescanó bypass is still in an early planning stage.

Though all but one news stories talk about roads being planned and no actual construction is taking place, it looks that after some years where construction and planning came to a complete stop things finally start moving again.


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## alserrod

Ministry goes on the upgrade of N-II between Pina de Ebro and Alfajarin. Just to double what there is currently. 

65,5 km


Press release

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...MUNICACION/NOTICIAS1/2014/MARZO/140320-06.htm


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## Suburbanist

Will a toll-free AP-7 make A-7 (ALicante- Canals) even less trafficked?


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> Will a toll-free AP-7 make A-7 (ALicante- Canals) even less trafficked?


I don't think so. A-7 is meant to connect Alcoy and Ibi (which are two medium-sized towns with quite a bit of industrial activity) with the rest of the world. Most traffic seeking a toll-free route between Valencia and Alicante choose A-31/A-35, which is full-motorway except for a short stretch in La Font de la Figuera (U/C for quite a while now, no realistic completion date) that is a high-standard 2-lane road. A-7 is twistier and has long 80 km/h stretches, whilst A-35 is straight and wide and allows 120 km/h for most of the time (and people "allow" themselves some km/h more ). A-31 bypasses most of Alicante, which is good for traffic going further South, whilst A-7 (which becomes A-77) has a rubbish interchange with A-70.

Plus, AP-7 is often congested in summer, and that will be worse when it becomes toll-free. It is also longer.


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## ChrisZwolle

New roads will open tomorrow (29/3/2014) in Andalucía;

* A-7 El Puntalón - Carchuna 
* GR-16 Port of Motril - El Puntalón (A-7)
* MA-23 access to Málaga Airport


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## verreme

5-kilometer long Vilanova de la Barca bypass opened to traffic today in Lleida province. It's part of the future Lleida-Balaguer motorway (C-13). 

(see press release for picture, it's too big to fit in the forum).

Cost was 49M€.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

What is the reason for haveing couple types of motorways in Spain ?


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## Reivajar

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> What is the reason for haveing couple types of motorways in Spain ?


You mean _autovía _and _autopista_? 

Mostly because historical reasons: _autovías _appear somehow as equivalent to the French _voies express_ or _2x2_, or like the Italian _superstrade_ in the beginning, when it was necessary to improve the road network but in a cheaper way. So, as there wasn't enough money for building new full motorways (_autopistas_), finally a cheaper option was developed based on doubling conventional roads. Here you have the first generation of _autovías_, which didn't fit all the motorway standards. At that time, as well, _autovías _were always toll free roads -as they replaced the old national roads-, while _autopistas _could be tolled or toll-free roads.

However, today, technically this difference has disappear, and the design of _autovías _and _autopistas _fits the same design standards. That's true that in some particular cases, some _autovías _have lower standards, but it is just because they belong to older generations of _autovías_ or because in somehow the current definition of _autovía _is more "flexible". That's why in some particular cases you can find autovías with narrower shoulders or some interchanges designed as roundabouts, which is really strange on motorways. But in general, there shouldn't be differences between autovías and autopistas and they could be considered as equivalent. Anyway, interchanges as roundabouts or narrower shoulder founded in some autovías, is a thing you can find as well in old motorways in Germany, France, Italy or United Kingdom.


----------



## sponge_bob

And to confuse everyone A roads are Autovias and AP roads are Autopistas. 

However the 11 Spanish States/Regions have also built state roads to full motorway standards ...often long roads...and they are generally as good as AP roads but are designated neither as A-nn nor AP-nn roads. 

I would think Spain has around 1000km of not A and not AP designated motorways, there are C-xx in Catalonia and RM-xx in Murcia etc. Andalucia has 'stolen' A numbers rather than invent its own numbering system so an A-Road Motorway in Andalucia may not be a real A road even though it is a Motorway. 

Even MORE confusingly some sections of National Road ( N roads) that predated the A and AP networks have been reconstructed to full motorway standard and kept their N road status despite now being motorways.

Overall Spain has one of the best motorway networks in the world, _whatever the bloody road is actually called_, and the backbone network will be completed in 2015 when some small missing links are finally finished. 

HTH


----------



## Suburbanist

The problem with Spain is that they mix up jurisdiction with typology.

What I miss in Spain is the "via rapida" concept, which they removed. It was useful to designate high-quality 1+1 roads.


----------



## Reivajar

sponge_bob said:


> And to confuse everyone A roads are Autovias and AP roads are Autopistas.
> 
> However the 11 Spanish States/Regions have also built state roads to full motorway standards ...often long roads...and they are generally as good as AP roads but are designated neither as A-nn nor AP-nn roads.
> 
> I would think Spain has around 1000km of not A and not AP designated motorways, there are C-xx in Catalonia and RM-xx in Murcia etc. Andalucia has 'stolen' A numbers rather than invent its own numbering system so an A-Road Motorway in Andalucia may not be a real A road even though it is a Motorway.
> 
> Even MORE confusingly some sections of National Road ( N roads) that predated the A and AP networks have been reconstructed to full motorway standard and kept their N road status despite now being motorways.
> 
> Overall Spain has one of the best motorway networks in the world, _whatever the bloody road is actually called_, and the backbone network will be completed in 2015 when some small missing links are finally finished.
> 
> HTH


Well, the numbering system for the State roads is pretty simple after the last change:

AP=_*A*utopista de *P*eaje_ (Toll motorway)
A= _*A*utopista o *A*utovía gratuita_ (Toll-free motorway/Freeway)
R=_*R*adial de peaje_ (Toll radial motorway, for tolled motorways doubling older access around Madrid).
N=_*N*acional_ (National road)

Out of that, urban roads (rings and access to cities) are identified with the city code (M for Madrid, B for Barcelona, V for Valencia, SE for Seville, Z for Zaragoza, and so on). Numbers finished in "0" refers to ring roads, if not, it should be another access or urban road. If the rectangle is blue it has motorway characteristics, if red, it is a conventional road (which can be a dual carriageway though).

So, currently the state network has a pretty simple system.

The chaos arrives when you consider the regional networks. Every autonomy has implemented a different road numbering system. That's why and A-road can be from a toll free motorway to a regular county road in Andalusia or Álava in the Basque Country. A C-road can be a county road anywhere around Spain if keeping the old numbering system (some regions have mostly kept it in some cases) or almost any kind of road in Catalonia.

Where A roads (_autovías_) have predated national roads, usually you get some sort of coherence in the numbering system, as if you are driving on a motorway, you have an A road, and not a N road.


----------



## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> The problem with Spain is that they mix up jurisdiction with typology.
> 
> What I miss in Spain is the "via rapida" concept, which they removed. It was useful to designate high-quality 1+1 roads.


Yes, kind of... for public administrators in Spain is important to make clear who is the "Lord" of a particular road... silly... :|

Vía Rápida is only kept in the Galicia regional network...

In the rest of cases, it was replaced by the really unusual "Vía para automóviles":










Which is supposed to be closer to European standards...

That's true that the numbering system used by the state network is centralized in Madrid and on the national radial roads, and it has been pretty criticized for being useful and appropriate enough in regions far from Madrid for their regional traffic. But that's true that the amount of different codes used by roads has no sense.


----------



## Escargot

In Spain there is one system for each community. And this is the real problem. Reivajar has explained the differences between "autopistas" and "autovías". Please, correct me if I'm wrong... but I'm quite sure that the 1st generation highway system goes from A-1 to A-9. 

As the Aragonese case hasn't been explained yet, I'll do it. National roads and highways don't change their names. Examples: N-330 (red), A-23 (blue). 
The roads that depend on the Aragonese Government are classified in this way: 
- Autonomic highway (blue, tolled, but the toll is paid by the government according to their numbers and not by users): ARA-A... There is olny one working: ARA-A-1. 
- Main autonomic roads (orange): "A" and three digits: A-132. 
- Second category (green): "A" and four digits (the first one is "1"): A-1604. 
- Third category or local roads (yellow): "A" and four digits (the first one is "2"): A-2605, or any other one: CV-861 (C stands for "camino vecinal"), "HU/Z/TE" and numbers: HU-202, or even a mixture: HU-V-3003. I've even seen on a map a road whose name started by "BF". I don't know what the hell it is.


----------



## Reivajar

Escargot said:


> In Spain there is one system for each community. And this is the real problem. Reivajar has explained the differences between "autopistas" and "autovías". Please, correct me if I'm wrong... but I'm quite sure that the 1st generation highway system goes from A-1 to A-9.
> 
> As the Aragonese case hasn't been explained yet, I'll do it. National roads and highways don't change their names. Examples: N-330 (red), A-23 (blue).
> The roads that depend on the Aragonese Government are classified in this way:
> - Autonomic highway (blue, tolled, but the toll is paid by the government according to their numbers and not by users): ARA-A... There is olny one working: ARA-A-1.
> - Main autonomic roads (orange): "A" and three digits: A-132.
> - Second category (green): "A" and four digits (the first one is "1"): A-1604.
> - Third category or local roads (yellow): "A" and four digits (the first one is "2"): A-2605, or any other one: CV-861 (C stands for "camino vecinal"), "HU/Z/TE" and numbers: HU-202, or even a mixture: HU-V-3003. I've even seen on a map a road whose name started by "BF". I don't know what the hell it is.


Well, I am not sure about the numbering system planned for the first national plans of motorways from the 60's and 70's. 

I think this is the first national plan of motorways, in 1964. All of them were planned to be tolled motorways. It was not a complete network, but it was focus on main axis.










Then, you have the plan of 1972









Based on the numbering system adopted by the stretches of those motorways finally inaugurated, the system was based in the traditional centered plan Peña: 6 radials from Madrid (A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, A-5 and A-6), A-7 for the Mediterranean Corridor, A-8 for the Northern coast corridor and A-9 for the Gallician Atlantic coast corridor; and the rest of motorways were numbered based on the Peña plan criteria:










That's why the motorways inaugurated in the 70's around Barcelona got A-1x codes as they belonged to the sector number 1, or the motorway between León and Asturias got the A-66 matching the 6th sector.


----------



## Reivajar

*B-21 Second access to Barcelona Port*

The construction of the new expressway *B-21* will start in September 2014. It will be the second access to Barcelona Port, serving the new Southern area of the harbour. It will costs around 200 millions of euros




















Technical characteristics said:



> It is a really complex project due to its highly urbanized surroundings. It can be divided in three sections considering their characteristics:
> 
> Section 1: increase of the capacity of Ronda Litoral (A-2) by adding a new line in every sense of circulation, from the overpass at 0+100 of the expressway A-2 to the new L'Hospitalet interchange.
> 
> Section 2: a new expressway dual carriageway of 2 lanes in every sense of circulation, built over filled ground and retaining walls, from the L'Hospitalet interchange to the C-31 expressway interchange.
> 
> Section 3: from the C-31 expressway interchange a major viaduct if projected to fit the dual carriageway over the Barcelona free port area on the left side of Llobregat river. After the Mercabarna bridge, the expressway will run over an enmankment built in the old riverbed, nowadays dry, until the new entrance to the port.



BOE-Official Gazette of the Spanish Government
El Periódico l Barcelona | in Spanish
324 noticias l in Catalan


----------



## verreme

^^ It's L'Hospitalet not L'Hospital . BOE link is wrong too.

I wonder if they are planning some kind of connection with the new bridge over the Llobregat river that is U/C west of El Prat. There's already a four-lane road where they are planning to build the motorway so I also wonder to what exent are they going to use the existing road and the old riverbed.

This is great news anyway, because Port of Barcelona has seen an enormous growth throughout the last years, especially with the construction of a new huge cargo terminal, but the surrounding infrastructure has not been upgraded. The news article also says that the promised rail link will also be built, using the right-of-way of an existing narrow-gauge railway.


----------



## Reivajar

^^ :lol:
Thanks, that's the problem of translating some stuff at 5h in the morning... 

Hmmm, I have no idea, as well as I have no idea as this new road will help to modify the A-2/C-245 interchange as the new link between the C-32 and the A-2 is going to be build.

This area gonna change a lot with the new roads.

For sure the port needs better and larger access, but by now the railway link is not that saturated. Anyway, better connection are always welcome.


----------



## verreme

^^ The road looks unrelated to the U/C link road between C-32 and A-2. Widening of A-2 starts just at C-245 interchange.


----------



## Reivajar

verreme said:


> ^^ The road looks unrelated to the U/C link road between C-32 and A-2. Widening of A-2 starts just at C-245 interchange.


Yes, I know, but what is not clear for me is the current layout of the C-245 interchange, which doesn't show the best design for the circulation from the C-32 towards the A-2 Lleida. A modification of that interchange would be really useful.


----------



## Sky

verreme said:


> 5-kilometer long Vilanova de la Barca bypass opened to traffic today in Lleida province. It's part of the future Lleida-Balaguer motorway (C-13).
> 
> (see press release for picture, it's too big to fit in the forum).
> 
> Cost was 49M€.


Here's a couple vids of the new road:


----------



## BenjiMan

Nice videos! 

Strange type of road marks they've used in the center: 4,5-8 meters instead of 6-11 meters for Autovías and Autopistas.


----------



## Reivajar

I am not sure if the Catalan autonomous government uses a particular standard for road markings for its own network, as it uses as well its own signage standard with some little variations over the general Spanish model. Anyway, I am not able measure the actual size of the road marks... apparently for me it is not as different as other Spanish roads. Maybe, I am not sure though, lines are slightly narrower: the former rule had 10 cm wide lines, the current one uses 15 cm wide lines for discontinuous lines on _autovías _and _autopistas_.

Maybe any forumer with a deeper knowledge of roads in Catalonia could say something... :dunno:


----------



## CNGL

Looking at other countries, personally I prefer the rainbow Spain has, since I can know the (theoretical) importance of a road from the color it has. But this doesn't explain why I have clinched A-1304 over nearby parallel A-220 (An "orange" road, more important than a "green" road the former is).


----------



## Reivajar

^^ I don't understand what you mean. You prefer the diversity of colors used by Spanish road numbers but you find it useless and not intuitive at all?


----------



## CNGL

Actually I find it useful. There were other reasons to clinch a lesser important route like I did.


----------



## Reivajar

Ah, ok... I understand now.


What I don't like is the diversity produced by different criteria used depending on the autonomous government. If there was just a common way for the whole territory, it would be much better.


----------



## Escargot

CNGL says that, theoretically, if you know which category each colour stands for, you can guess its importance and characteristics. The order in Aragon, from the best to the worst, is blue > red > orange > green > yellow. 
But this is the theory. Sometimes a yellow road is better than a red one. Think about some local roads (near Luceni, for example) which are better than N-260 between Campo and Seira.


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## Reivajar

Most of the problem is with the colors of local roads. Depending on the province or region it can be yellow (the traditional one), or light blue, or grey, or brown, or purple... I don't know if I am missing any color... :lol:

There is some kind of agreement in the upper levels, as you say (except in Catalonia where orange is not used), that's right.


----------



## alserrod

Nevertheless... I guess that for any driver it could be easy to remember colours to know if he is going to take an upper or downer road but some road numbers are impossible to join to any strech, area or so...


----------



## Reivajar

After all, most of the traffic uses blue, red and orange roads... that's pretty simple. The lower the level is, the less important the number of road is for drivers.


----------



## Escargot

Maybe names work better than colours. The simpler, the better. Some examples: 
- A-23: blue. 
- N-234: red. 
- A-132: orange. 
- A-1205: green. 
- A-2605: yellow. 
But the problem is the same again.


----------



## CNGL

By the way, a "red" (national) road can be anything from this to this 

Yup, I have switched to the new Google Maps


----------



## Reivajar

CNGL said:


> By the way, a "red" (national) road can be anything from this to this
> 
> Yup, I have switched to the new Google Maps


Well, that's true as well. Even there are some "local roads" far better than a national road. :lol:

As well, gonna recognize the N-260 is a pretty particular national road...


----------



## Aokromes

Reivajar said:


> Well, that's true as well. Even there are some "local roads" far better than a national road. :lol:
> 
> As well, gonna recognize the N-260 is a pretty particular national road...


Like this http://goo.gl/maps/l7Nmd XD


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## MichiH

alserrod said:


> To my best knowledge they are halted and works are only in Monrepos pass and near Nueno, A23





alserrod said:


> Yes I know. What it happens is road N240 keeps different names in paralel motorways (about nine names I think).
> A21 and A23 are together although first one is barely on going


Ah, ok.

*A23:* Alto de Monrepos – Arguis 2 3.2km (? to 2014) – ? – map
*A23:* Congosto de Isuela – Nueno 2 4.4km (? to 2014) – ? – map

*A23:* Sabinanigo-East – Sabinanigo-South 12 2.6km (? to _suspended_) – ? – map
*A23:* Lanave – Caldearenas 2 14.4km (? to _suspended_) – ? – map
*A23:* Caldearenas – Alto de Monrepos 12 4.1km (? to _suspended_) – ? – map

Correct?

Any idea if the two sections will really be completed in 2014? Summer/Fall?


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## alserrod

Escargot's call!!!!!


----------



## CNGL

I've added start dates to all sections. Most of them where already U/C by 2009, maybe earlier. I've also added accents and tildes where needed.

*A23:* Alto de Monrepós – Arguis 2 3.2km (2012 to 2014) – ? – map
*A23:* Congosto de Isuela – Nueno 2 4.4km (2012 to 2014) – ? – map

*A23:* Sabiñánigo-East – Sabiñánigo-South 12 2.6km (2009 to _suspended_) – ? – map
*A23:* Lanave – Caldearenas 2 14.4km (2009 to _suspended_) – ? – map
*A23:* Caldearenas – Alto de Monrepós 12 4.1km (2009 to _suspended_) – ? – map


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## MichiH

alserrod said:


> Escargot's call!!!!!


:?



CNGL said:


> I've added start dates to all sections. Most of them where already U/C by 2009, maybe earlier. I've also added accents and tildes where needed.


Thanks. Maybe earlier, so I'd like to modify it to "<2009". Which sections were already < 2009 u/c? Well, if you know all this data... I would appreciate if you could add the missing data to all Spanish projects: > click < .


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## alserrod

MichiH said:


> :?



She's from that area and she will be the one who better will give a feedback




CNGL said:


> I've added start dates to all sections. Most of them where already U/C by 2009, maybe earlier. I've also added accents and tildes where needed.
> 
> *A23:* Alto de Monrepós – Arguis 2 3.2km (2012 to 2014) – ? – map
> *A23:* Congosto de Isuela – Nueno 2 4.4km (2012 to 2014) – ? – map
> 
> *A23:* Sabiñánigo-East – Sabiñánigo-South 12 2.6km (2009 to _suspended_) – ? – map
> *A23:* Lanave – Caldearenas 2 14.4km (2009 to _suspended_) – ? – map
> *A23:* Caldearenas – Alto de Monrepós 12 4.1km (2009 to _suspended_) – ? – map


Just let me point a detail...

Nueno-Congosto had one km. opened in early 2011. Motorway ended one km. before Nueno exit and they built second bridge over the river, extending A-23 until there. Not many... but one kilometre more.





@MichiH
Just a detail... A-23 is a motorway starting in Sagunto (km.0) and to be end in the Somport tunnel (but is is planned only until Jaca and we do not expect to have final stretch in a looooong time)

N-240 is a road starting in Tarragona and ending in San Sebastian. Providing all on service, on works and on project motorways, its meaning is:

A-27 Tarragona-Montblanc, AP-2 Montblanc-Lleida South, Ll-11, Lleida-South-Lleida-east, A-2 Lleida east - Lleida north
A-22 Lleida-Huesca, A-23 Huesca-Jaca, A-21 Jaca-Pamplona, A-15, Pamplona west, AP-15 Pamplona-Irurzun. A-15 Irurzun-Andoaín, A-1 Andoaín-San Sebastián.

Yeah... to be crazy!!!!


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## ChrisMuenchen

hi all,

in August I want to avoid the AP-7 and want to use the N 420 and N 211 between Teruel and Fraga/Lleida. What is the current condition of these roads. Are they smooth to use?`I think they are mostly 1+1? I suppose that the truck-traffic (will use on a Saturday) isn't that high or am I wrong?


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## alserrod

Hi.

Between Mequinenza and Caspe there are several sites locked on 70 and close to Montalban and Utrillas closed to 40 but just a few kilometres. The rest of the road is quite good and the one with less traffic in Spain. Just have a look on street view with some random spots.
From Utrillas to Villalba Baja you will be able to drive 100 surely (upper too but not allowed...).

I barely remember trucks on the road.


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## Reivajar

N-420 between Teruel and Montalbán is OK as far I remember. Low traffic in general, including trucks. 

N-211 between Montalbán, Alcañiz and Fraga is as well ok. However, I remember between Caspe and Mequinenza (for getting down to the Ebro river valley) you have some bendy sections, but not dangerous at all. Traffic as well low in general.

As well, consider a shortcut around Montalbán. Instead of crossing Utrillas in the N-420 and then Montalbán in the N-211 with the bendy sections in the exists of both towns (as Montalbán is at the beginning of a deep valley comparing with the surrounding mountains), you can take the regional road A-2402 from Escucha to Palomar de los Arroyos and Castel de Cabra, where you can merge again the N-211 (route).

Anyway, there are several Aragonese forumers who use to post in this thread who can give you probably more recent information.

P.S.: Alserrod was one of the forumers I was thinking about... :lol: Thanks man.


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## Reivajar

@MichiH:

Consider to include two more motorways in your list:

*B-21* Second access to Barcelona Port (more on this post)

*AC-15* Access to A Coruña Outer Port.
The last information published about the AC-15 has been the press released the beginning of works for the interchange AC-15 X AG-55 (location). However, I gonna ask in the Spanish forum about the status of the remaining AC-15.


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## ChrisMuenchen

thank you very much. very useful for me!


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## Escargot

Why does Sabiñánigo appear as suspended? There were people working this morning near the roundabout to N-260. 

I don't have any idea of when works will be finished, but there they're not halted.


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## MichiH

Reivajar said:


> @MichiH:
> Consider to include two more motorways in your list:
> 
> *B-21* Second access to Barcelona Port (more on this post)


Thanks . Will be added when the works will be started in September.



Reivajar said:


> *AC-15* Access to A Coruña Outer Port.
> The last information published about the AC-15 has been the press released the beginning of works for the interchange AC-15 X AG-55 (location). However, I gonna ask in the Spanish forum about the status of the remaining AC-15.


Any information meanwhile?


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## ChrisZwolle

AC-15 started construction in late 2010 or 2011.

This image is dated 29 March 2012.


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## Reivajar

Reactivation of another important project in Northwestern Spain. The enlargement of the motorway *AP-9* (Atlantic Motorway, A Coruña/Ferrol - Tui) capacity was cancelled because of the cuts, but now the projects have been reaproved.

The improvement affects two sections: Vigo-Morrazo (between the Cangas and Rande exists, the Northern access to Vigo city centre, including the enlargement of the current 2x2 Rande Bridge, currently pretty saturated), Santiago de Compostela bypass and Sigüeiro exit.

Press release by the Spanish Ministry of Public Works (in Spanish)

Two videos (in Spanish) explaining the project:



neuromancer said:


>




Location of the enlargement project for the Santiago bypass on the AP-9.


----------



## verreme

^^ We're seeing a lot of projects being restarted this year. This is very good news because between 2010 and 2013 everything was pretty much in a standstill. 2014-2020 will see a lot of new motorway openings in Spain.


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## RV

Again projects of by-passes in the middle of nowhere (like Alicante), for a city like Santiago that has like 60 000 inhabitants or so... Again an expensible by-pass that nobody needs that will have AADT 3000...


----------



## arctic_carlos

RV said:


> Again projects of by-passes in the middle of nowhere (like Alicante), for a city like Santiago that has like 60 000 inhabitants or so... Again an expensible by-pass that nobody needs that will have AADT 3000...


This is not a new by-pass of Santiago, but the enlargement of the one that already exists (AP-9) from 2x2 to 3x3 or 4x4, depending on the section. Currently the by-pass is toll free for all internal movements.

The situation in Santiago is completely different from the one in Alicante, where a toll-free by-pass close to the city already existed and a new tolled by-pass was built further inland. Almost nobody uses the new by-pass...

By the way, Santiago has 96.000 inhabitants, 148.000 in the metropolitan area.


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## Reivajar

About the AADT of the sections to be enlarged in the AP-9:

Santiago bypass: 34.000 veh/day
Rande bridge (Northern access to Vigo): 52.805 veh/day

Figures from 2012. In 2007, considering it was the traffic peak before the crisis, Santiago bypass got 38.685 veh/day and the Northern acces to Vigo got more than 60.000 veh/day.


----------



## RV

Reivajar said:


> About the AADT of the sections to be enlarged in the AP-9:
> 
> Santiago bypass: 34.000 veh/day
> Rande bridge (Northern access to Vigo): 52.805 veh/day
> 
> Figures from 2012. In 2007, considering it was the traffic peak before the crisis, Santiago bypass got 38.685 veh/day and the Northern acces to Vigo got more than 60.000 veh/day.


34 000 AADT to 3+3 and 4+4! When will you learn! Madrid radial highways are in crappy conditions but they are doing 4+4 highways in the hills! Why does Santiago have two by-passes anyways?

Hiperronda was the absolute fiasco in Malaga = 4+4-5+5 for 20 000-40 000. Because it's too far from Malaga, just like Alicante by-pass that wasn't even needed!

Enlargement to 3+3 in Vigo with 52 000 is though absolutely justified.


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## Reivajar

3+3 for Santiago bypass seems to me pretty fair by adding a lane from the incoming and outcoming roads in the toll free section. 4+4 for me is only reasonable in a case where there are two intensively used exists really close each other, if not, I can't find a good reason for that.

In the case of Vigo, apparently even 1+2+2+1 future layout won't be enough because of the intense commuting between Vigo and Morrazo peninsula.


----------



## Suburbanist

What is the status of A32 east of Linares and near Ubéda?


----------



## Reivajar

Between Bailén and Linares, and from Ibros to Úbeda (Rus and Canena bypass) the A-32 is open. 

Sections Linares-Ibros and Úbeda-Torreperogil should be open in 2015. The rest of section, on hold or with the project finished by not still under construction.


----------



## Suburbanist

Reivajar said:


> Between Bailén and Linares, and from Ibros to Úbeda (Rus and Canena bypass) the A-32 is open.
> 
> Sections Linares-Ibros and Úbeda-Torreperogil should be open in 2015. The rest of section, on hold or with the project finished by not still under construction.


Will it be ultimately built to Albacete, or has that project been cancelled?

Are there future plans for a better road between Ponferrada and some point on A-52, facilitating connections with future Portuguese route A4?


----------



## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> Will it be ultimately built to Albacete, or has that project been cancelled?


It is planned. The cuts cancelled most of the sections under construction. And now only from Bailén to Torreperogil seems to be opened in the short term. In the future who knows... it planned, but actually the N-322 has not lot of traffic, less than 2000 veh/day in the central section of the road close to Alcaraz.



> Are there future plans for a better road between Ponferrada and some point on A-52, facilitating connections with future Portuguese route A4?


There is a planned motorway, the *A-76* along the Sil river valley from Ponferrada to Ourense. The informative study was aproved in February (press release), so now it is just about keep working on it. Not in a hurry though.


----------



## Suburbanist

N-322 has a lot of curves between Robledo and Balazote, as it follows the _Rio del Jardín_


----------



## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> N-322 has a lot of curves between Robledo and Balazote, as it follows the _Rio del Jardín_


Yes, that's right. But as far I know the state of the road is pretty good. I don't know if there is a particular stretch of the road extremely bad, but the motorway is going to cover the most used section for sure.


----------



## RV

The AADT of the road planned to Albacete is about 2000-4000...


----------



## Suburbanist

RV said:


> The AADT of the road planned to Albacete is about 2000-4000...


Would it stay that way if a highway was build? IT would make possible to travel from Valencia do Jaén, Cordoba and Sevilla on a viable alternative inland route.


----------



## MichiH

RV said:


> The AADT of the road planned to Albacete is about 2000-4000...


The predicted AADT on the future road or the actual AADT on the existing road?


----------



## Reivajar

The question would be that the existing links from Andalusia towards the East coast of Spain are not that saturated. Maybe Murcia urban area would be a section on the A-7 to be avoided between Andalusia and Valencian Community.

A-4 through Despeñaperros (which is the most used access to Andalusia) got around 20.000 veh/day, which is not too much. And the A-43 from Manzanares (A-4) to Atalaya de Cañavate (A-3) is pretty underused, with AADT under 10.000 veh/day.

I guess in the case of finishing the A-32 it would get at most around 10.000 veh/day. A-7 and A-92N in the East limit of Andalusia with Murcia get that amount of traffic.


----------



## verreme

Travelling from the Mediterranean coast to Western Andalucía is already possible thanks to A-43. A-32 does only make sense to connect Albacete and Jaén provinces, which are among the poorest in Spain, especially the latter.



RV said:


> The AADT of the road planned to Albacete is about 2000-4000...


AADT on the stretches closest to Albacete is around 5.000 vehicles per day, though it's true that a motorway would attract more traffic. A-32 will take some time to arrive but there's no need to hurry because the existing road is perfectly adequate and in good shape. Plus, the terrain is more difficult than in the flats (after El Jardín there's Spain's longest straight at 20+ kilometers), so it would be more expensive than other motorways in La Mancha that carry that amount of traffic but were built because they were ridiculously cheap.

The particular stretch that follows the river is no treacherous mountain pass -I've driven most of it no slower than 80-100 km/h. Back in 2008 it was in very good shape, unlike closer to Linares where the road seemed to have been a minefield. Don't know if it has been repaired since.


----------



## alserrod

A43 will increase traffic when arriving to Merida cos it's fastest way Valencia-Lisboa


----------



## Reivajar

Extension of motorway *A-58* (Trujillo-Cáceres): Cáceres Northern bypass, link to A-66 and Malpartida de Cáceres bypass



> *Spanish Ministry of Public Works awards the project writing for the construction of the Malpartida de Cáceres bypass, in the N-521*
> The total budget for the awarding is 1.02 M€
> The 10,7 km long bypass construction is estimated in 53 M€.


In total, 10.7 km, divided in two different sections depending on the road caracteristics: 3 km long section from the end of the current A-58 to the interchange Cáceres West in the A-66 which will get motorway caracteristics and will double the existing N-521; and then other 7,7 km as Malpartida de Cáceres bypass as single carriageway road but already prepared to be converted into motorway in the future.

Location.


----------



## verreme

alserrod said:


> A43 will increase traffic when arriving to Merida cos it's fastest way Valencia-Lisboa


It is very unlikely that A-43 will reach Extremadura in the future. At least not in the next 20 years.


----------



## alserrod

I know... and another problem is that you can reach Extremadura from Ciudad Real but not via Puertollano.

This is... there are several motorways where you can build a stretch and you improve the area.

In the A-43 it only has sense to complete totally Puertollano-Merida


----------



## Reivajar

> *Spanish Ministry of Public Works awards project writing for the motorway A-68 between Arrúbal and Navarrete in La Rioja*
> *It is known as Logroño bypass*
> 
> The budget for the project writing is 1,09 millions of euros.
> The estimated budget for the project construcction is 122 millions of euros


Basically it is not a new motorway but the liberalization of the current toll motorway AP-68 for bein used as Logroño bypass for mid and long range traffic, avoiding the saturated LO-20 inside the city of Logroño.

The current 2x2 section could be upgraded to 3x3 if traffic requires it, but it is not still decided. New motorway links will be built in the start and end of this section for connecting the motorway with the existing road N-232, and new toll stations will be built in both extremes.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Are they planning to make changes to AP-68, or will it only become toll-free?


----------



## Reivajar

And about the Mudéjar motorway *A-23* (Sagunto-Jaca), between Monrepós and Sabiñánigo (northern Aragon)



> *Spanish Ministry of Public Works restarts works in the Caldearenas-Lanave section in Huesca*
> *Motorway A-23.*
> 
> It is a 12 km long motorway section.
> The investment is 78,3 millions of euros.


The current road N-330 will be reused for one of the carriageways of the new motorway, towards Huesca.


----------



## Reivajar

ChrisZwolle said:


> Are they planning to make changes to AP-68, or will it only become toll-free?


The AP-68 between Arrúbal and Navarrate will become toll-free, so, it will be renamed as A-68 too.

A quick summary of the planned intervention:

-Traffic studies need to be done, but if it is needed, a third lane could be added to the current motorway.

-Connection to the N-232 will be improved by adding to motorway link at the start and at the end of this section, as well, with motorway characteristics (so no current exist will be used for connecting the motorway and the N-232).

-Existing interchanges (Agoncillo, Logroño and Navarrete) will be modified and adapted to the new situation; and a new one will be added at the intersection with the road LR-250 (close to Villamediana de Iregua).

-Two new toll plazas (as the current toll motorway will be split in two separated sections) will be added in both extremes of the section.


----------



## Reivajar

From the Spanish forum



alserrod said:


> Si tienes Via-T cualquier recorrido de ida (sin vuelta necesaria) es gratuito entre Cenicero y Agoncillo sin necesidad de ida y vuelta.
> Va a cuenta del ministerio de fomento.
> 
> El gobierno riojano me consta que subvenciono otros trayectos pero ya no lo hace


If you have Via-T (E-Toll) any trip between Cenicero and Agoncillo is already for free, paid by the Spanish Ministry of Public Works.


----------



## alserrod

Sorry for off topic...

Surfing in google maps I've seen the Spanish-Portuguese border written in Catalan...
(as well as many other mistakes about a motorway on works pointed as opened)


----------



## Reivajar

^^Actually Google Maps in Spain got lots of mistakes sin they started to used IGN as base maps. They had already many mistakes, but they added some additional ones... whatever. I've already given up about trying to correct mistakes and sending reports... 95% of times they are useless.


----------



## arctic_carlos

What I dislike the most is that they show autovías in yellow, as if they were conventional roads, instead of showing them in orange, as they do with autopistas. In most cases both of them are full profile motorways, regardless of the colors used by Google Maps.


----------



## Reivajar

arctic_carlos said:


> What I dislike the most is that they show autovías in yellow, as if they were conventional roads, instead of showing them in orange, as they do with autopistas. In most cases both of them are full profile motorways, regardless of the colors used by Google Maps.


For example... hno:


----------



## verreme

Road-wise, Google Maps is crap. I've even seen "N-2" on N-II. Its only interesting feature is Street View.


----------



## Reivajar

verreme said:


> Road-wise, Google Maps is crap. I've even seen "N-2" on N-II. Its only interesting feature is Street View.


Yes, that's another example.

According to you which would be the best, road-wise?


----------



## Road_UK

I wonder if Google is trying to make a hint to the Spanish road-authorities. It's bad enough that virtually the whole alphabet is represented in Spanish roads, at least try and keep the Romans out.... N2 makes more sense.


----------



## Reivajar

Road_UK said:


> I wonder if Google is trying to make a hint to the Spanish road-authorities. It's bad enough that virtually the whole alphabet is represented in Spanish roads, at least try and keep the Romans out.... N2 makes more sense.


:lol:

Nah... I don't think so. Actually I guess it is mostly a problem with the database they use. I think, or at some point the National Geographical Institute data used by Goggle now got some mistake -but I don't think so because I've used it sometimes and it is OK as far I've seen- or Google has merged different databases over the maps of the National Geographical Institute, and there you have this kind of messy and confusing things. 

Other constant mistakes observed in Google Maps since they use the new database is that all the roads, even if they are interurban roads, receive street names from the closer towns... it is some sort of bug of the Google databse or whatever... not sure. I've asked them but they always reply with dumb and predefined mails. As well, still unnamed streets receive just random street names from other ways around the same town... whatever... LOL


----------



## Ni3lS

Hi guys, quick question. I'm doing a short presentation about Spain in the EU (spanish class) and I was wondering where I could find a list of (road) projects co-funded by the EU. Could anyone here point me in the right direction? Thanks in advance


----------



## Road_UK

I tried Googling it in both English and Spanish. Nothing.


----------



## Reivajar

Ni3lS said:


> Hi guys, quick question. I'm doing a short presentation about Spain in the EU (spanish class) and I was wondering where I could find a list of (road) projects co-funded by the EU. Could anyone here point me in the right direction? Thanks in advance


Sorry, I don't know any complete list about it. On the European Union website there are a minisite about the future European funds, but the transport funds are slightly different... not too much about motorways appears... :S


----------



## verreme

Road_UK said:


> I wonder if Google is trying to make a hint to the Spanish road-authorities. It's bad enough that virtually the whole alphabet is represented in Spanish roads, at least try and keep the Romans out.... N2 makes more sense.


Yes, our road numbering system is a mess. But crap maps only make it worse.



Reivajar said:


> Yes, that's another example.
> 
> According to you which would be the best, road-wise?


I think none of the existing web-based map services are very good, road-wise.


----------



## Ni3lS

Road_UK said:


> I tried Googling it in both English and Spanish. Nothing.


Did the same, only found a Malaga bypass project. 



Reivajar said:


> Sorry, I don't know any complete list about it. On the European Union website there are a minisite about the future European funds, but the transport funds are slightly different... not too much about motorways appears... :S


Too bad. Thanks guys for trying though, I'll skip this in my presentation.


----------



## Reivajar

^^ If you check on google "autovía fondos europeos" you can get some partial information, but you should check out project by project... :-/


----------



## Ni3lS

Found something, got a whole list of projects anyway. In terms of infrastructure, European money seems to be mostly spent on high speed railway in Spain. 

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy...S&pay=ES&region=ALL&the=ALL&type=STOMAJ&per=2


----------



## Reivajar

^^ Yes, that's the minisite about European funds I talked you about. 

And yes, you're right with your assumption. Consider that in the last years and for the upcoming years, most of the money for public works in Spain is spent and will be spent in railways not in roads.


----------



## sponge_bob

Reivajar said:


> that in the last years and for the upcoming years, most of the money for public works in Spain is spent and will be spent in railways not in roads.


That is because.

a) The EU is more inclined to fund high speed rail than roads and high speed rail is expensive per km.
b) Spain has completed 95%+ of its core motorway network and has one of the best motorway networks in the world. It will be near enough 100% complete in 2015.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Spain has been spending more on rail projects than on road projects for more than 10 years.


----------



## alserrod

Yes.

In the 80s there were many rail lines with poor occupation that were definitely closed to traffic.
In the 90s there were much more investment on roads rather than on rails (only HSL Madrid-Seville and first works Madrid-Lleida but barely nothing)

In the 2000s it was done conversely. Several motorways more and many more HSLs


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

What is the longest motorway in Spain ?


----------



## alserrod

Have to check. Longest road is N340 but motorways don't always keeps similar numbers as paralel routes.


----------



## Reivajar

The longest motorway is for sure the A-7/AP-7.

Virtually it is the same road, sometimes as freeway (A-7), other times as toll motorway (AP-7), and few times doubled (A-7 and AP-7). Around 1300 km from Algeciras to La Jonquera (France).


----------



## alserrod

But is it completed or there are streches remaining yet?


----------



## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> But is it completed or there are streches remaining yet?


Between Algeciras and La Jonquera you can always drive following the Mediterranean coast using either AP-7 or A-7 (and sometimes both of them), with the exception of some short sections in Granada province that will open at latest next year.


----------



## alserrod

That was the point. It must be considered from Almeria o so, not southern.

Anyway it would be the longest.

By the way it starts in Cadiz, doesn't it?


----------



## Reivajar

Well, that's true that two sections of the motorway are still under construction in Motril (Granada coast), between Málaga and Almería.

And no, it doesn't. A-7/AP-7 goes from Algeciras to La Jonquera. N-340, which is the paralel national, road, goes from Cádiz to Barcelona, but it doesn't continue farther to the North from Barcelona, where it is replaced by the N-II.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Between Cádiz and Vejer de la Frontera, A-48 replaces old N-340. Currently there are no plans to build a motorway between Vejer de la Frontera and Algeciras replacing N-340, but if it is ever built, it will also be called A-48. It makes sense, as A-7 is the Mediterranean Highway, and west of the Gibraltar strait (i.e., west of Algeciras area) the road follows the Atlantic Ocean.


----------



## Reivajar

Well, anyway the continuity of the Mediterranean Corridor to the West of Andalucia is assured by the A-381.

I think the difference on considering the numbers of motorways is that when the national roads were numbered, provincial capitals were the most important nodes. Now, with the motorways you have other important nodes and the European network, and in this case the primary node in the area is not Cádiz but Algeciras... I think it explains the different criteria used for numbering the AP-7/A-7 and the old N-340.


----------



## MichiH

What's the longest continuous motorway-like road in Spain with only one numbering, without gaps?

In Germany, it's the A7 from the Danish border to the Austrian border. No gaps in between. No different numbering.


----------



## alserrod

the problem is that AP is only for tolled motorways.

La Jonquera - Vera are 867 km all on AP-7 but Valencia by-pass is not tolled so you will see AP-7 until north Valencia and from south Valencia... not in the by-pass




non-tolled, A-4 Madrid-Seville, 538 km (and there are some little more streches until Cadiz)

Anyway... best way to go Madrid-Seville is via Merida in the A-66


and... nowadays, the same distance (Silver Route, Ruta de la Plata) is from Northern Zamora to Seville. The day this motorway will arrive a little more in the north, will be longer. It is a former Roman route (hence its name)



Madrid-La Coruña is quite long but you have A-6, later AP-6 and again A-6. Just a few strech of tolled motorway. Driving you will only notice that you may pay for a while but nothing else. If we consider the first point after the tolled area (where it starts the A-6 non-stop until La Coruña), there are about 500 km


----------



## Reivajar

Longest continuous numbering motorway stretches:

A-4 (Madrid M-30 to Dos Hermanas AP-4): 543 km
A-66 (Northern Zamora N-630 to Seville SE-30): 530 km

I think they are the longest ones without any change on the number.


----------



## Reivajar

alserrod said:


> non-tolled, A-4 Madrid-Seville, 538 km (and there are some little more streches until Cadiz)


A-4 is signposted and is coincident together with the Eastern part of the Seville ring road SE-30. So it can be considered continuous up to Dos Hermanas.


----------



## alserrod

That's right.

What about A-8?

In several months it would be longer


----------



## Reivajar

alserrod said:


> That's right.
> 
> What about A-8?
> 
> In several months it would be longer


Even if the currently under construction sections are finished, the A-8 will still have a discontinuity in Santander as the outer Santander bypass from Solares to Torrelavega won't be built in the short term. Instead of this direct route, the A-8 is derouted though the S-10 or the S-30 and the A-67.

Anyway, even ignoring this gap, from Southern Bilbao to Baamonde (A-6) there are 480 km.

As soon as the A-7 under construction sections close to Motril are finished, the continous stretch from East Alicante to Algeciras will have 623 km. As well, if you ignore the small gap of the A-70 in Alicante, the A-7 is continious up to Nules (between Valencia and Castellón). So, from Nules to Algeciras there are 854 km. That's true that the freeway A-7 along the Costa del Sol is pretty out of standard, but it is named A-7 after all.

In the future, the continous A-66 from Seville to León will have 662 km.


----------



## alserrod

A23 has more than 400 km with a disruption in Zaragoza whilst sharing with Z40 but after there it remains the same km. Number


----------



## arctic_carlos

Reivajar said:


> Even if the currently under construction sections are finished, the A-8 will still have a discontinuity in Santander as the outer Santander bypass from Solares to Torrelavega won't be built in the short term. Instead of this direct route, the A-8 is derouted though the S-10 or the S-30 and the A-67. Anyway, even ignoring this gap, from Southern Bilbao to Baamonde (A-6) there are 480 km.


A-8 between Torrelavega and Solares is under construction, with an expected opening in late 2015 or early 2016, works resumed last year after they were abandoned for 4 years.


----------



## Reivajar

arctic_carlos said:


> A-8 between Torrelavega and Solares is under construction, with an expected opening in late 2015 or early 2016, works resumed last year after they were abandoned for 4 years.


Really?

Ah, I had no idea. So, good news.  I had missed the press release. :lol:

Thanks.


----------



## Road_UK

Edit. Never mind


----------



## arctic_carlos

Reivajar said:


> Really?
> 
> Ah, I had no idea. So, good news.  I had missed the press release. :lol:
> 
> Thanks.


Yes, you can read here the press release (in Spanish):

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...ACION/NOTICIAS1/2013/SEPTIEMBRE/130903-01.htm

And the map of the project:

http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonlyres/21b37b5f-dc04-4727-9866-906fd0171c05/119716/13090301G1.jpg

I hope they don't miss the deadline and next year we'll finally be able to drive along the A-7 and A-8 without interruptions.


----------



## Reivajar

Enlargement of the motorway* AC-11*, access to A Coruña from the AP-9.



> *Spanish Ministry of Public Works aproves the public information report and the building project for the enlargement of the avenida Alfonso Molina in A Coruña* (link to the press release in Spanish)
> The budget for the project is 9,2 millions of euros.
> It is included in the protocol signed between the Ministry and Audasa, responsible for the concession of the toll motorway AP-9, on the 26th December 2012.


This section got an AADT of 145000 veh/day, usually really congested. Basically a new lane will be added, so it will pass from 3 to 4 lanes. However, because of the lack of space, it won't get a standard section as 3 of the 4 lanes will be 3,30 m wide and the other one with the regular 3,50 m width standard. However, standard 2,50 m wide shoulders will be kept.

Location

Some pics:



>


----------



## alserrod

I'm so happy... I've been in that route several times per year since I was a kid.

Now it will be full motorway Logroño-Santo Domingo east.

There is a stretch halted and not started until Burgos yet


----------



## broken0099

Pictures from a local newspaper: http://noticiasdelarioja.com/numero-2416/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Why did Rajoy attend the opening of A-12? This isn't too common, right? I usually read only about Ana Pastor attending opening ceremonies. (she could use a little crate to make her look taller  )


----------



## javimix19

ChrisZwolle said:


> Why did Rajoy attend the opening of A-12? This isn't too common, right? I usually read only about Ana Pastor attending opening ceremonies. (she could use a little crate to make her look taller  )


Well, Spain is in big crisis, and there are not many projects to inaugurate these days. Since 2010 few motorways have constructed, and generally only Minister of Infraestructure goes to these events.

But Rajoy credit in Spain now is very low, corruption everywhere... you know. So perhaps in next months until elections of 2015 Rajoy will appear in all inaugurations.


----------



## Reivajar

^^ I guess there are not too many opportunities for Rajoy to visit La Rioja, as it is the smallest autonomous community, so probably he has taken advantage for visiting the territory.


----------



## javimix19

http://www.noticiasdegipuzkoa.com/2014/07/02/vecinos/la-rotonda-de-martutene-podra-acoger-mas-trafico

News is in spanish. But resume is that: since 2013 there is an alternative to go between San Sebastian and Andoain. This stretch is very important because it carries a lot of international traffic between Spain/Morocco/Portugal and France/rest of Europe.

Until 2013 all traffic between Andoain and San Sebastian went by expressway N-1. 










But now international traffic goes by A-15 to Astigarraga and then it takes Second Ring Road of San Sebastian.

Well, the problem is to all vehicles who want to enter San Sebastian. When you arrive to Martutene it is a roundabout.



















Well, this roundabout was a bad planning project. This town of San Sebastian has some industrial zones and traffic is terrific. Also in this roundabout is a new connection to the main hospitals of the city.

Now politics are planning a new solution to do something like that:


----------



## Reivajar

^^ I guess, ideally, for getting to San Sebastian city center from the South, going through the A-15/N-I directly, instead of using the new expressway.


----------



## javimix19

A new notice from the last new motorway of Gipuzkoa, a province of Basque Country. 



















Well, since the early 90's Government of Gipuzkoa is building these motorway from Beasain to Bergara. From motorway N-1 to motorway Ap-1. This motorway will service a highly industrialized zone of Gipuzkoa. (In Basque Country provinces have competences of infraestructures)

The first stretch was build in 1997 between Beasain and Ormaiztegi. The second one was open in 2005 between Ormaiztegi and Zumarraga. The third one opened in 2013 between Zumarraga and Urretxu. The final stretch is going to run between Urretxu and Bergara.
Motorway is toll free between Beasain and Urretxu, but the final stretch was designed to being tolled. That was the condition to build the last stretch. But now... Ruling politicians have said that they are not going to put tolls in the new stretch. 
News are that:

http://www.diariovasco.com/gipuzkoa/201407/08/autovia-deskarga-abrira-proximo-20140708125338.html

Stretch between Urretxu and Bergara will open in April 2015. Well, to drivers is a good notice, but people of Gipuzkoa are surprised. Bidegi (Public Roads Enterprise of Gipuzkoa) have a lot of debts, this enterprise is unsustainable, and is sure that in next years all motorways of Gipuzkoa will be tolled. For everyone.


----------



## alserrod

It is very, very uncommun to see president in a 12 km motorway opening... but next year we have local elections in june, regional elections (not in all of them but in the majority) the same day and general elections in november...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*TF-5*

A new stretch of the Tenerife ring road will open to traffic next Friday, July 18. This is a super two highway.

http://www.laopinion.es/tenerife/2014/07/11/tramo-anillo-tanque-abrira-trafico/552482.html


----------



## Reivajar

*AS-17*

A new 8 km long section of the expressway AS-17 (Asturias) has been opened, including the new Cadaval tunnel (1173 m).

http://www.lne.es/nalon/2014/07/10/autovia-riano-entrara-manana-servicio/1612499.html

Location


----------



## verreme

^^ It's surprising to see that the recently opened A-12 and AS-17 have dashed side line markings. They are now supposed to be solid and they have been repainting them in most existing motorways.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I was just looking into AS-17. Do you know if it runs from A-64 to Langreo, or does it start a bit further northwest at SI-2 at Viella?

Also, is this suppose to become AS-III?


----------



## Reivajar

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was just looking into AS-17. Do you know if it runs from A-64 to Langreo, or does it start a bit further northwest at SI-2 at Viella?
> 
> Also, is this suppose to become AS-III?


The road number AS-17 spans from Avilés to Langreo, but the road is updated to expressway along several separated stretches. I guess, it will turn into AS-III when the expressway is more continuous. If I am not wrong, currently from Posada de Llanera to Viella, and from the A-64 to Riañu it got expressway standard. Valbona bypass is under construction.

Openstreetmap offers better updates and information, or at least I think so: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/43.3749/-5.7776


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The density of motorways, dual carriageways and super two highways is quite high in the Oviedo - Gijón area.

A-8, A-63 & A-64 as east-west routes
A-66, AS-I, AS-II, AS-17 as north-south routes
plus several spurs into Gijón, Oviedo and Avilés.


----------



## Reivajar

^^ Yes, even I would say a bit excessive. I am not sure about congestion levels in Asturias anyway...


----------



## broken0099

verreme said:


> ^^ It's surprising to see that the recently opened A-12 and AS-17 have dashed side line markings. They are now supposed to be solid and they have been repainting them in most existing motorways.





verreme said:


> ^^ It's surprising to see that the recently opened A-12 and AS-17 have dashed side line markings. They are now supposed to be solid and they have been repainting them in most existing motorways.


How so? Is there a new rule? Anyway, good news, I prefer solid lines for motorways.

On the other hand, it seems impossible to use a unified criterion for narrow rural roads in Spain. So far I've seen roads with no lines at all, roads with a dashed centre line only, roads with side lines only (be it solid or dashed), and roads with a dashed centre line + side lines (again either solid or dashed).

From what I've seen, in Italy they use solid lines on the sides, while the French use a dashed centre line plus sometimes dashed side lines.


----------



## verreme

Reivajar said:


> ^^ Yes, even I would say a bit excessive. I am not sure about congestion levels in Asturias anyway...


Central Asturias is a densely populated region that relies in few corridors that carry very heavy traffic (mainly the "Y" serving Oviedo, Gijón and Avilés). AS-I and AS-II are meant to relieve congested A-66, whilst AS-17 serves a heavily industrialized corridor. It's not excessive at all, there are many people living there.



broken0099 said:


> How so? Is there a new rule? Anyway, good news, I prefer solid lines for motorways.
> 
> On the other hand, it seems impossible to use a unified criterion for narrow rural roads in Spain. So far I've seen roads with no lines at all, roads with a dashed centre line only, roads with side lines only (be it solid or dashed), and roads with a dashed centre line + side lines (again either solid or dashed).
> 
> From what I've seen, in Italy they use solid lines on the sides, while the French use a dashed centre line plus sometimes dashed side lines.


Roads in Spain can be run by the State, regional governments or provinces, and every entity has its criteria. It's not uniform at all. But I can't see which system is best, so all for the better...


----------



## broken0099

verreme said:


> Central Asturias is a densely populated region that relies in few corridors that carry very heavy traffic (mainly the "Y" serving Oviedo, Gijón and Avilés). AS-I and AS-II are meant to relieve congested A-66, whilst AS-17 serves a heavily industrialized corridor. It's not excessive at all, there are many people living there.
> 
> 
> 
> Roads in Spain can be run by the State, regional governments or provinces, and every entity has its criteria. It's not uniform at all. But I can't see which system is best, so all for the better...


Well, I've seen different criteria even within the same province. Anyway, as long as the road is well maintained (good asphalt, good marking, not too old signs, clean sides) paint scheme isn't really that important - and a little diversity won't hurt anyone.


----------



## CNGL

I'll be going through the Ventamillo gorge by the end of this month. I've seen local roads far better than this section of *N-260* (For example, the recently widened HU-V-5231, now a motorway compared to that).


----------



## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> Tarragona-Montblanc A-27 is going to keep on in a 5 km stretch. That one on the Valls bypass http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG_CASTELLANO/GABINETE_COMUNICACION/NOTICIAS1/2014/JULIO/140723-03.htm


Definitely good news!


----------



## MichiH

alserrod said:


> Tarragona-Montblanc A-27 is going to keep on in a 5 km stretch. That one on the Valls bypass
> 
> http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...MUNICACION/NOTICIAS1/2014/JULIO/140723-03.htm


Any information about estimated completion?


----------



## verreme

^^ There's nothing on the press release, nor on local newspapers.


----------



## alserrod

They just say that machines are working again after being halted!


----------



## MichiH

verreme said:


> ^^ There's nothing on the press release, nor on local newspapers.


Thanks, I haven't checked my former source but it said that the estimated completion should be in 2014. I guess that's unlikely (but I've no idea about the advance). What do you think, is 2014 or 2015 possible?


----------



## alserrod

2014 impossible. 2015, perhaps... there are general polls in november .... ....


But it will be only Tarragona - Valls north. From there to Montblanc it will be a nightmare. Just look at google maps.

I recommend you to take the AP-2 in El Pla de Santa Maria just for only one exit


----------



## verreme

MichiH said:


> Thanks, I haven't checked my former source but it said that the estimated completion should be in 2014. I guess that's unlikely (but I've no idea about the advance). What do you think, is 2014 or 2015 possible?


A picture I found in a news article:










(source)

I don't think this will be ready for 2014. End 2015 seems more plausible.

Unlike some have said, this stretch A-27 is not parallel to any toll road. Its purpose is to reach toll AP-2 in Montblanc following a straight line from Tarragona -something absolutely necessary for the busy port of Tarragona and its surrounding chemical industry. AP-2 comes to an end in El Vendrell, far north from Tarragona, so a driver going from Tarragona to Madrid on a full-motorway route will be forced to make a long detour. Current N-240 crosses a mountain pass and then becomes a semi-urban highway with lots of roundabouts and at-grade intersections.

With the opening of these two stretches, only the toughest part will remain halted, which is the tunnel under the mountain pass. Montblanc does already have a grade-separated bypass (though single-carriageway).

I think we can see it all open to traffic in 2020.


----------



## alserrod

g.spinozza.... I've been glancing for a while your perfect Spanish roads&motorways map and a small correction: A-23 in Sabiñánigo should be 400m north or more. It gets the N-260 junction.


But I am amazed about some accuracy with new works!!! should you need small project on going, just PM me and all related in my region I can point them to you


----------



## Escargot

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ is it this stretch marked as "in construction"?
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/42.4874/-0.3720


Hi, Spinoza. Alserrod has shown us your map. I think it's a very detailed job.  Thank you very much for your effort and interest.


----------



## g.spinoza

I have nothing to do with the map, I didn't create it, it's not "mine"... I just searched for it


----------



## Escargot

In any case, thank you for sharing it.


----------



## sponge_bob

If a road is 'abandoned' and no longer under construction it can be changed to 'proposed' on Openstreetmap to show it is not _actually_ under construction at that time.

Once it is construct*ed* it is a plain road, IE neither proposed nor under construction.


----------



## alserrod

Tomorrow it is expected to have opened four more kilometres in the A-23 in Nueno.


----------



## MichiH

alserrod said:


> Tomorrow it is expected to have opened four more kilometres in the A-23 in Nueno.


The 2nd carriageway b/n Congosto de Isuela and Nueno which was announced to be opened in late September?



CNGL said:


> Correction: Still not full motorway, as all traffic has returned to the previously existing but now improved road. It will become a motorway in *Late September*. However, is now signed as A-23, not N-330.





CNGL said:


> The Nueno-Isuela gorge section of Spanish A-23 keeps getting me (us) crazy. The info is correct, one carriageway open and signed as A-23... but they have diverted traffic (again) onto the new tunnel! :nuts: Actually the section is *completed*, they are just waiting for those suckers to get their photo :bash:.


I guess the beloved top-ranking politicians have finally found time .


----------



## alserrod

Yes, that one.

They often open new motorways:

- on final July, before a great deal of cars are on roads
- before any poll


----------



## CNGL

We like to open roads in late July if there's no election in sight . They have confused so bad with this section. I claim it as clinched upon full opening, so I don't have to re-clinch A-23 again, I did it for the 4th or 5th time on Sunday when I went through the section near Sabinanigo. And for some reason I confuse this one with the planned Jabarrella reservoir-Sabinanigo South section...


----------



## alserrod

OK,... but today I've found an official release about politics who had made the "day before opening" ceramony....

I expect this time it is not a (another one) newspaper mistake


----------



## CNGL

In the press release (Spanish only) it says the road has an AADT of 8,000. This may be well over 10,000 when the A-21, A-22 and A-23 get completed, and also if France finishes upgrading its section of E07 (called RN134 there). Neither the motorways nor the French road won't be finished before 30 February, as it stands now...


----------



## alserrod

And we have another news that second tunnel (1,5 km long) could be opened in October


----------



## verreme

^^ France will never upgrade RN134. They're not interested.

A-22+A-23+A-21 will become the route of choice between Catalonia and the Cantabric coast though. This will boost traffic. Sadly I don't see this happening before A-21 is complete on the Aragonese side.


----------



## alserrod

either the full A-22


----------



## MichiH

alserrod said:


> And we have another news that second tunnel (1,5 km long) could be opened in October


2nd tunnel, is there only one tunnel in Spain so far? 

Which tunnel, which section? Alto de Monrepos – Arguis?


----------



## alserrod

Google street view images are out of date but... I think they can serve

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.3245...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sC_BncY0pylqlQ0veMs1ulA!2e0

Looking to the north, right tunnel was opened in 1993 and nowadays is cut to traffic due to a refurbishment (it was OK but maybe the only chance to make works inside without a traffic but)
Left tunnel was opened several months ago. Nowadays you will cross in a 1x1 the mountain using left tunnel.


This is the other side of both tunnels (in this picture, right one is currently on service 1x1, left one under works for refurbishments)

https://www.google.es/maps/place/22...m2!3m1!1s0xd583a1d99a6babb:0xe93703a3d30b4f29

and... over both ones you can see former Manzanera tunnel, the same road but... quite narrow one and another route...



Next opening will be just this second tunnel, nothing else to my best knowledge!


Looking to the north, there is a 450m tunnel that will remain for one direction. In the left side there will be a new 3 km or so tunnel for second carriageway.

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.3359...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s2NbcDC0adxwzT_naM3rNOw!2e0


----------



## MichiH

alserrod said:


> Next opening will be just this second tunnel, nothing else to my best knowledge!





CNGL said:


> Originally Posted by *MichiH*  _*Spain* (map)
> *A23:* Alto de Monrepos – Arguis 2 3.2km (2012 to 2014 => October 2014) – ? – map_
> 
> 
> 
> _
> Per the latest news reports,_
Click to expand...

I guess the section length is not 3.2km. Maybe ~2.0km.

PS: Please let's stay in this thread with updates to ongoing Spanish projects. Thanks.


----------



## alserrod

Don't mention it...

Tunnel length is 1500ish metres. Lets think in road coming from both sides to it so about 3 km at least...


But we will have an important bottleneck. This is... going to Huesca, after the mountain pass you will have the second tunnel opened. Wow!, motorway!!! (either 80 km/h restrictions and radars). But 2x2. And just after the tunnel and for two km. more... 1x1 again.

I guess that in several winter weekends we will have there traffic jams


----------



## CNGL

Researching a bit I've found that several tunnels were studied on N-260. It would be nice if any day they build all of them .
Fadas pass Tunnel, between Laspaules and Castejon de Sos. Would be 4 kilometers long. What a pity I haven't found if they have studied another tunnel for nearby L'Espina pass, between Montanuy and Laspaules...
Ventamillo gorge Tunnel, between Castejon de Sos and Seira. The only way to make a good road through the gorge without causing a enviromental collapse. Would be 3.5 km long.
Esera gorge Tunnel, between Seira and Campo. Would be 5 to 5.6 km long. This is actually the lower part of the Ventamillo, not so of a gorge though.
Campo bypass Tunnel. Would be 3 km long. Not sure where it would be located, though.


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## alserrod

Ventamillo gorge area would have 4 different tunnels at all


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## alserrod

Two new streches in the A-8 where opened last week.

One of them is Santander overpass. A small one. You will require to approach Santander to go through... but it is still a new part of the project.

Second one 7.6 km in the boundary of Asturias with Cantabria.

With this last one, only 4 km of road 1x1 remains to go from Portugal to France via the north side of Spain full motorway.



Press releases

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...UNICACION/NOTICIAS1/2014/AGOSTO/140807-02.htm

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...UNICACION/NOTICIAS1/2014/AGOSTO/140807-04.htm


(and hope I will tell all of you about these motorways in few days)


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## CNGL

Fomento has unlocked the Sabinanigo East-Sabinanigo West section of A-23 (The one between two already open sections). Planning ran into troubles due to polluted soil, and they had to find a way around it. The new section will be 4.5 km long (Which doesn't seem consistent with mileposts). Now it can be... challenged.


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## CNGL

MichiH said:


> *Spain* (map)
> *A8:* La Franca – Unquera 12 5.2km => 4.5km (? to Mid 2015 => Late 2014) – ? – map


According to latest reports, this section, due to open before the end of current year, is facing some troubles as there is an unstable ladder which is producing landslides every then and now. Stabilizing it is important because the motorway will run atop it and N-634 will run below it. Current N-634 is going to be absorbed by the motorway.


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## verreme

CNGL said:


> Fomento has unlocked the Sabinanigo East-Sabinanigo West section of A-23 (The one between two already open sections). Planning ran into troubles due to polluted soil, and they had to find a way around it. The new section will be 4.5 km long (Which doesn't seem consistent with mileposts). Now it can be... challenged.


Does this mean it's U/C now or that plans have been restarted?


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## CNGL

Plans have been restarted, it's not U/C yet.


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## alserrod

verreme said:


> Does this mean it's U/C now or that plans have been restarted?


Plans have been set to zero again. A new project is required.

People with affections in this new project have 30 days to claim if they want.


It means starting again the project but it will be better than having a halted project, not started and without any future


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## KRX_69

*N-V*

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*A-5 (Badajoz-Madrid)*

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:cheers:


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## KRX_69

*A42*

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:cheers:


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## verreme

A video of Túnel del Cadí in the Spanish Pyrenees:






It's the fourth longest road tunnel in Spain and opened 30 years ago in 1984. Toll is expensive, but it saves half an hour when driving from Barcelona to Puigcerdà, and almost 2 hours if you plan to drive between both ends of the tolled section avoiding the tunnel.

For a long time now, there's a political will to build a second tube, in order to have a full-motorway standard connection between Barcelona and Toulouse via Puigcerdà and Tunnel du Puymorens (instead of the current, long detour via Narbonne). It seems distant, though, and all that's going to be done in this route in the coming years is the widening to 2+1 lanes of C-16 between Berga and Bagà (with a movable barrier) and a likely Puigcerdà bypass.


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## KRX_69

*N-403*

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*TO-20*

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*A-42*

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:cheers:


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## Suburbanist

Is there a central website where I could check the financial statements of all concessionaires of tolled highways in Spain?

Second question: is there any highway project in Spain that uses "shadow tolls" (meaning cameras count the traffic, gov't (instead of drivers) pay the concessionaire directly?


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## ajch

Suburbanist said:


> Second question: is there any highway project in Spain that uses "shadow tolls" (meaning cameras count the traffic, gov't (instead of drivers) pay the concessionaire directly?


C-25 in Catalonia
ARA-A-1 in Aragon
Refurbishing of A-1 A-2, A-3, A-4 is being done with shadow tolls

and probably a lot more


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## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> Is there a central website where I could check the financial statements of all concessionaires of tolled highways in Spain?
> 
> Second question: is there any highway project in Spain that uses "shadow tolls" (meaning cameras count the traffic, gov't (instead of drivers) pay the concessionaire directly?


Most Catalan regional-government financed, toll-free motorways have been built with shadow tolls. C-25, C-16, C-35/C-65/C-31, C-17 and C-15 use shadow tolls, and also single-carriageway expressways such as C-15/C-37 between Vilafranca del Penedès and Manresa. Other highways were incorporated to this system after being built as a compensation for an upgrade or another project, such as C-17 between Centelles and Vic, which was built as a dual-carriageway road in 1995 and upgraded to motorway standards (with shadow tolls) in 2010, with the upgrade being mostly cosmetic touches like signage and new crashbarriers. You can find more information on these projects in the Cedinsa website (the concessionaire). 

Regional motorways in Castilla-La Mancha (CM-42, CM-40, CM-41, CM-45) have also been financed using shadow tolls.

In Galicia, AG-11 and AG-41 do also use this system. Not sure about other motorways such as AG-53 and AG-64.

And in Murcia, nearly all regional motorways (RM-1, RM-2, RM-3...) have been built this way.

In Madrid there are also M-501 and M-503. AFAIK, the first motorway built using shadow tolls in Spain was M-45 in Madrid.

There may be more cases, but these are the ones that come to mind. There are no state-owned motorways built with shadow tolls, only the already-mentioned upgrades of radial _autovías_. I think A-66 between Benavente and Zamora is being built with a PPP system, but I don't know the details of it.


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## alserrod

ajch said:


> C-25 in Catalonia
> ARA-A-1 in Aragon
> Refurbishing of A-1 A-2, A-3, A-4 is being done with shadow tolls
> 
> and probably a lot more


I think M-45 in Madrid was the first one and I am not sure, but some new streches of halted motorways were to be considered as that


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## pai nosso

*A-62*

1-View from Ciudad Rodrigo (direction Fuentes de Oñoro)


2-Direction Salamanca

Source: pai nosso


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## pai nosso

*A-66*

Direction Zamora

Source: pai nosso


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## Vignole

verreme said:


> Most Catalan regional-government financed, toll-free motorways have been built with shadow tolls. C-25, C-16, C-35/C-65/C-31, C-17 and C-15 use shadow tolls, and also single-carriageway expressways such as C-15/C-37 between Vilafranca del Penedès and Manresa. Other highways were incorporated to this system after being built as a compensation for an upgrade or another project, such as C-17 between Centelles and Vic, which was built as a dual-carriageway road in 1995 and upgraded to motorway standards (with shadow tolls) in 2010, with the upgrade being mostly cosmetic touches like signage and new crashbarriers. You can find more information on these projects in the Cedinsa website (the concessionaire).
> 
> Regional motorways in Castilla-La Mancha (CM-42, CM-40, CM-41, CM-45) have also been financed using shadow tolls.
> 
> In Galicia, AG-11 and AG-41 do also use this system. Not sure about other motorways such as AG-53 and AG-64.
> 
> And in Murcia, nearly all regional motorways (RM-1, RM-2, RM-3...) have been built this way.
> 
> In Madrid there are also M-501 and M-503. AFAIK, the first motorway built using shadow tolls in Spain was M-45 in Madrid.
> 
> There may be more cases, but these are the ones that come to mind. There are no state-owned motorways built with shadow tolls, only the already-mentioned upgrades of radial _autovías_. I think A-66 between Benavente and Zamora is being built with a PPP system, but I don't know the details of it.



Also C-14 between Reus and Alcover uses shadow toll.


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## verreme

^^ That is correct. I think it's not the case for C-13 though.


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## broken0099

It seems that most of the motorways built by regional governments used this "shadow toll" system.

Also: 

-The A-601 Segovia-Valladolid and the A-231 Burgos-León in Castilla y León.
-The A-12 and the A-21 in Navarra.

Navarra, Bizkaia, Gipuzkoa and Álava/Araba own and manage all the roads and motorways within their respective territories, except for the AP-68.

Navarra chose the PPP system for their stretches of the A-12 and the A-21, that's why they were built so quickly compared to the rest of the A-12 and A-21.

The other 3 territories decided to build "physically tolled" motorways, such as the AP-1 between Vitoria and Éibar or the bypasses of Bilbao or San Sebastián (AP-8). However, it seems that these motorways aren't getting as much traffic as expected. In fact, the provincial government of Gipuzkoa wanted to install a toll system in the A-15, A-1 and GI-632 (which are now toll-free) in order to get more money.


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## CNGL

broken0099 said:


> A-231 Burgos-León


Except the Valdeagorfa-Arnes section. :troll:


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## KRX_69

*A-4*

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## alserrod

They still point "parador" hotels in new signals!!


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## Suburbanist

alserrod said:


> They still point "parador" hotels in new signals!!


What exactly determines whether a facility is a "parador" ?


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## alserrod

Parador ("Parar" = "Stop") is a public luxurious hotel network

This is its webpage in English
http://www.parador.es/en

First one was opened in 1928 and the network was quite well promoted by Franco, building several ones quite well-known.

BTW, my favourite one is in Leon, 
https://www.google.es/maps/place/Le...m2!3m1!1s0xd379a9a0d5e1bd9:0x7d849ffad4f1eef3

but Santiago one is not bad at all
https://www.google.es/maps/place/Sa...m2!3m1!1s0xd2efe44e2dd71a7:0xe0146888c087e311


For a long time it was very often to see signals pointing the nearest one, although it wasn't as a city where you have to cross or so but a destination (and an ad too)


But I haven't seen new signals with Parador hotels pointed (except inside a city where it is one more hotel)


They are public (property of the government) and managed by a public entreprise.


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## Sunfuns

Sevilla and Kansas city on the same road sign


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## verreme

^^ A touch of America in the deepest of Spain


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## Sunfuns

That particular stretch of road does resemble US.


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## adevahi

^^^^ :lol:
Sevilla and Kansas City are sister cities, so one of the most important avenues in Sevilla has this name and all the people who arrives to the city using the airport or coming from northeast Spain enter in the city through this avenue.

Moreover, in 1992 Kansas City did this present to Sevilla, which is situated in that avenue
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estatua_del_Explorador









In change there is a Giralda in Kansas:cheers:


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## alserrod

Tomorrow night there will be a fire simulation on Monrepos tunnel*S* (current N-330, future A-23).

I guess it is one of the final steps before opening both tunnels for traffic

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...ACION/NOTICIAS1/2014/SEPTIEMBRE/140908-04.htm


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## alserrod

Somport tunnel, N-330, border with France is closed due to a toxic leakage since friday 17:00


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## PLH

I will be visiting Spain for the first time an I have a few questions about speed limits:

Is all this written below true? Source is wikipedia, so I's sceptic:


> 100 km/h on: a) one-way roads, b) roads with more than two lanes, or c) roads with shoulders at least 1.5 m wide; 90 km/h elsewhere.
> On two-way roads, cars and motorbikes are allowed to go 20 km/h over the speed limit in order to overtake a slower vehicle in a shorter amount of time.


Build-up areas, and therefore 50 km/h, are indicated by white signs with black letters, is that right?


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## alserrod

Yes, they are. Anyway... Only in small roads you ought be confused.

In main roads you will not find any problem. Either because road bypass either because too easy to recognise.

Anyway I would state that always the 50 sign is posted


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## broken0099

The part that says that you can go 20km/h over the limit only applies if there isn't a "specific" speed limit.

For instance, imagine a stretch of road with 1.5m wide shoulders but with a speed limit of 80 km/h because you're approaching a town. In that case, you're not allowed to overtake at 100 km/h (80+20), but at 80km/h.

So, you're only allowed to overtake at 120 km/h (or 110 km/h) if the actual speed limit is 100 km/h (or 90 km/h, respectively).


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## alserrod

20 km/h more only to overpass another car.
Rest of time... Radars have a 10% accuracy only.


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## Peines

alserrod said:


> 20 km/h more only to overpass another car.
> Rest of time... Radars have a 10% accuracy only.




*8km/h accuracy…*

http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...rgenes-aplica-radares/0003_201409G11P7995.htm


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## broken0099

Not my pictures, but I found them worth watching.

AP-66 north of León.

Selga de Ordás








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111074740









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111076308

La Magdalena








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111076460









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111076945









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111077051

Barrios de Luna








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111077766









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111078412









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111102768


Puente Ingeniero Carlos Fernández Casado. It was the world's longest cable-stayed bridge when it was opened in 1983, and it's still the longest in Spain (until the one in Cádiz is finished)








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111079313









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111105212










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111103728

All photos by Ricardo Melgar: http://www.panoramio.com/user/1432645


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## ChrisZwolle

Great! That's 'bucket list' material


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## adevahi

broken0099 said:


> Puente Ingeniero Carlos Fernández Casado. It was the world's longest cable-stayed bridge when it was opened in 1983, and it's still the longest in Spain (until the one in Cádiz is finished)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111079313
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111105212


:nono:
The longest consideering only the distance between the two main pillars ("longitud del vano" in spanish), but not the longest consideering the complete distance. This record belongs to Puente del Centenario in Sevilla, but the one in Cádiz will break both records


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## CNGL

I finally drove over the newest section of A-23 (Nueno-Isuela gorge) this weekend. Twice. And in both directions. Seeing what happened to me with this section and to alserrod with the Sabinanigo South-Sabinanigo East one, I predict the Arguis-Monrepos summit section (basically a tunnel, traffic is again on the old one) to open next week given its near-completion status .


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## verreme

broken0099 said:


> Not my pictures, but I found them worth watching.
> 
> AP-66 north of León.


(video is not mine).


----------



## verreme

N-145 is the main road connecting Andorra with Spain. It was in an appalling state in as late as 2009, but it has recently been rebuilt. A short stretch was realigned through a new tunnel. It's a sweet drive when there's no traffic, but this is rare, traffic jams being very usual due to the (huge) border crossing in the road's Northern terminus at La Farga de Moles.






Frenchmen beware -the Spanish police does random checks South of the border to look for smuggled alcohol or tobacco. Oddly enough, "13" plates are the most sought-after, Andorra being Marseillais' favourite _Pastis_ shop!


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## Proof Sheet

broken0099 said:


> The part that says that you can go 20km/h over the limit only applies if there isn't a "specific" speed limit.
> 
> For instance, imagine a stretch of road with 1.5m wide shoulders but with a speed limit of 80 km/h because you're approaching a town. In that case, you're not allowed to overtake at 100 km/h (80+20), but at 80km/h.
> 
> So, you're only allowed to overtake at 120 km/h (or 110 km/h) if the actual speed limit is 100 km/h (or 90 km/h, respectively).


Beware of photo radar. I was in Catalonia in August 2012 on a 100 km/h road (T-11) and got caught via photo radar @ 115 km/h.

It took until January 2013 to get the notice in the mail (registered mail here in Canada) as it was a rental car and it took that long to unravel the ownership etc and who actually rented the car.

The initial fine was 100 euros but for some reason I ended up paying 50 euros on my credit card with no link back to my drivers licence or insurance here in Canada. A phone call to the transportation ministry in Catalonia (in english) solved it all.

They included a clear photo of my rental car and exactly where and when the picture was taken.

I found it to be a cash grab and I was surprised it took so long for me to get the fine. Seriously fining people going 115 km/h on an open road with literally no traffic.


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## Suburbanist

This is the standard practice about speed enforcement on European highways: cameras, some tolerance, but no discretion on officials. You are above the threshold, you get fined.


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## alserrod

Proof Sheet said:


> Beware of photo radar. I was in Catalonia in August 2012 on a 100 km/h road (T-11) and got caught via photo radar @ 115 km/h.
> 
> It took until January 2013 to get the notice in the mail (registered mail here in Canada) as it was a rental car and it took that long to unravel the ownership etc and who actually rented the car.
> 
> The initial fine was 100 euros but for some reason I ended up paying 50 euros on my credit card with no link back to my drivers licence or insurance here in Canada. A phone call to the transportation ministry in Catalonia (in english) solved it all.
> 
> They included a clear photo of my rental car and exactly where and when the picture was taken.
> 
> I found it to be a cash grab and I was surprised it took so long for me to get the fine. Seriously fining people going 115 km/h on an open road with literally no traffic.




Rules and law apply anywhere... 


I recommend to download the DGT app. They will point all radars they managed (in roads all except in Catalonia and Basque country and nothing inside cities, but enough information for a lot of trips).
And anyway you can surf on their web and they will say the same information and print it. Obviously, car radars are also on the road and... you can get fined even from a helicopter!!!

In motorways, maximum allowed speed is 120. There are someones with barely some cars and you could drive faster... but it can be expensive to your pocket.

Since (July 2006) Spain got a strongest law on traffic issues, fatality has decreased toooooo much.


About price, minimum traffic fine is 100 EUR but almost any fine payed within 15 days after you receive the letter will have a 50% discount.


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## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> This is the standard practice about speed enforcement on European highways: cameras, some tolerance, but no discretion on officials. You are above the threshold, you get fined.


Speaking about Catalonia, tolerances way above the "official" 10 km/h threshold are not uncommon on speed traps. Police officers don't like to be the bad guys. It's no standard practice though, but it's quite widespread. I don't think any officer will set the threshold of their Multanova at anything less than 100 km/h in an 80. Speed cameras are different as they are not run by the police but by each region's traffic authority, and tolerances are low, and always the same.

It also varies depending on which police enforces the roads. Barcelona city council applies 20 km/h tolerance on speed limits of 60 km/h or higher, and 15 km/h on 50 or lower. Same applies for fines. Two years ago, I was fined with 50€ and no points for doing 140 km/h in a 100 -outside Barcelona city limits, this would have cost me 2 points and a higher fine. This is the highest _standard_ tolerance I'm aware of in Spain.

I reckon that it's a completely different approach than in the US or Canada. If you drive fast (through a speed trap ), there's no escape, but you usually depend less on the mood of a police officer -and you don't risk going to prison unless you're driving _very_ fast.


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## alserrod

Last fine I saw was because driving 98 when limited to 80.

They set a 10% accuracy (thus 89 ?= fine)


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## OriK

^^ fixed cameras are configured with few tolerance or no tolerance at all (i.e. a fixed camera could fine you for driving at 121km/h on a 120km/h motorway) but every camera has an error margin that is (or should be) deducted from your detected speed. For example if you are driving at 125 (and your car tells you that you are driving at 135), the camera detects 127 and the error margin is 10%, the system would know that you could have been driving at 114km/h and it won't fine you. 

Mobile cameras are usually configured with a margin of tolerance (and I think that this is more frequent where the generic limit is not in place) and the error margin factor is still present.

You can check the official fines table here: https://sede.dgt.gob.es/Galerias/tr...nes-por-exceso-velocidad/cuadro_velocidad.pdf

And the one with the new limits (still not applicable): http://www.abogadosparatodos.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/image1.jpg


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## broken0099

Proof Sheet said:


> Beware of photo radar. I was in Catalonia in August 2012 on a 100 km/h road (T-11) and got caught via photo radar @ 115 km/h.
> 
> It took until January 2013 to get the notice in the mail (registered mail here in Canada) as it was a rental car and it took that long to unravel the ownership etc and who actually rented the car.


AFAIK, T-11 is an "autovía". I should've pointed out that the +20 km/h tolerance doesn't apply to roads classified as "autopista" or "autovía".

The tolerance doesn't apply either unless you're driving a motorbike or a passenger car (i.e. trucks/lorries, vans, buses aren't allowed to drive over the limit).

Besides, in dual carriageways which aren't classified as "autopista" or "autovía" it's also possible to drive faster than the limit when overtaking.

Here's an article (in Spanish) that explains it quite clearly: http://www.peris.es/2014/04/cuando-se-pueden-superar-los-limites-de-velocidad/



Proof Sheet said:


> The initial fine was 100 euros but for some reason I ended up paying 50 euros on my credit card with no link back to my drivers licence or insurance here in Canada. A phone call to the transportation ministry in Catalonia (in english) solved it all.
> 
> They included a clear photo of my rental car and exactly where and when the picture was taken.


If you pay in less than 15 days' time you get a 50% discount.



Proof Sheet said:


> I found it to be a cash grab and I was surprised it took so long for me to get the fine. Seriously fining people going 115 km/h on an open road with literally no traffic.


Yes, that's what most people here think. But it seems that speed cameras on motorways are highly profitable investments for authorities. And they do need the money in order to... buy more speed cameras.


----------



## broken0099

Now, on a totally unrelated subject, I think this is an interesting piece of Spanish road history. I found this picture that shows different models of roadmender cottages. It was part of a modernization plan made in 1950 by the ministry of public works. Each model was intended for a specific location, I guess the top-left one was for the Spanish Sahara and the middle-left one for the Spanish Guinea.

Edificios auxiliares de carretera, Plan de Modernización 1.950 by elpacense07, on Flickr


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## Proof Sheet

Oops. minor correction. The actual road I was on was the C-14 near Reus. Not sure if that changes things or not. Either way, fining people going 115 km/h on a road with a speed limit of 100 km/h is going to catch a lot of people.




broken0099 said:


> AFAIK, T-11 is an "autovía". I should've pointed out that the +20 km/h tolerance doesn't apply to roads classified as "autopista" or "autovía".
> 
> The tolerance doesn't apply either unless you're driving a motorbike or a passenger car (i.e. trucks/lorries, vans, buses aren't allowed to drive over the limit).
> 
> Besides, in dual carriageways which aren't classified as "autopista" or "autovía" it's also possible to drive faster than the limit when overtaking.
> 
> Here's an article (in Spanish) that explains it quite clearly: http://www.peris.es/2014/04/cuando-se-pueden-superar-los-limites-de-velocidad/
> 
> 
> 
> If you pay in less than 15 days' time you get a 50% discount.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's what most people here think. But it seems that speed cameras on motorways are highly profitable investments for authorities. And they do need the money in order to... buy more speed cameras.


----------



## Suburbanist

Proof Sheet said:


> Oops. minor correction. The actual road I was on was the C-14 near Reus. Not sure if that changes things or not. Either way, fining people going 115 km/h on a road with a speed limit of 100 km/h is going to catch a lot of people.


But then what is the point of setting a far too low speed limit, only to raise the "tolerance" on fines?

I'd rather have a higher speed limit assigned to roads, allowing people to be legally withing the limit, instead of giving more tolerance on radar photos.


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> But then what is the point of setting a far too low speed limit, only to raise the "tolerance" on fines?
> 
> I'd rather have a higher speed limit assigned to roads, allowing people to be legally withing the limit, instead of giving more tolerance on radar photos.


There should be a little bit of both. People are not computers, they make mistakes. Even if the speed limit is high, it's easy to drive 110 in a 100 thinking that you're in a 120, for example. And speed cameras should target conscious speeders, not people making reasonable mistakes.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I agree, I think 10% tolerance is a reasonable measure.

Moreover, I'm kinda against fixed speed cameras except when it is a critical point. I'm in favor of sector control (2 cameras that measure your average speed over 1, 2, even 10km, by reading your plates, and then calculate average speed). 

Is there sector-control camera speed enforcement in Spain?


----------



## alserrod

What do you mean about "sector-control"?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

section control - average speed check - control de velocidad en tramo


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## alserrod

In my region only one in just one direction.

Few ones at all


----------



## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> Is there sector-control camera speed enforcement in Spain?


There are a few of them. They started to be installed like 2 or 3 years ago.

Here you have the location of the first ones installed. The date of this post is 2012, but I think that no many more have been installed since then.


----------



## Vignole

In Catalonia there are actually 4 of them:

http://www10.gencat.cat/gencat/AppJ...enafuncionarelsradarspertramalan340ilac65.jsp


----------



## pai nosso

*Galicia* roads

1-AC-164


2-AC-164


3-VG-1.4 (on the way to Finisterra)


4-AC-550

Source: pai nosso


----------



## Suburbanist

Is it trure that Madrid will block 22km² for car traffic this December and charge € 90 for the drivers who dare to drive within it :O ?


----------



## alserrod

Yes and no...


People who doesn't live there will be able to go to a parking.

Cameras will record plates and incidences. For instance, if you enter there it is mandatory to go to a parking and only using mean streets. If your plate isn't recorded on a parking you'll be fined.
But if the parking is busy and you cannot enter, you won't.


But... for other reasons, better take the underground or commuter


----------



## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> Is it trure that Madrid will block 22km² for car traffic this December and charge € 90 for the drivers who dare to drive within it :O ?


Here you have the English version of El Pais with the new measure:
http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/09/22/inenglish/1411395850_166057.html

And here you have the map. Embajadores and Cortes neighborhoods are already controlled by this system. Sol-Palacio has been the new are to be controlled. And the Northern areas of the old town (Universidad and Justicia) are still to be considered.



>


----------



## verreme

^^ In case you don't understand Spanish: streets in light purple will be free to use for all vehicles. Residents won't have any restriction, either, same as vehicles en route to a car park. Motorcycles will be restricted to the daytime, and delivery vans only from 10.00 to 13.00 in work days.


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## RV

Spain has definitely got the Green Virus.


----------



## verreme

^^ This is only the beginning -they are planning additional measures, such as lowering speed limits to 80 km/h (or even 50!) on all urban freeways inside M-40. Such a measure was already implemented in Barcelona, but it was dropped as air quality didn't improve significantly, nor did road safety.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Cleaner vehicles have more impact on air quality than lower speed limits, especially now that the 1990s and earlier vehicle fleet is increasingly being phased out. This is especially notable in the past 5 years, most diesel cars are now equipped with particle filters and trucks are mostly of a modern euro emission standard class.


----------



## verreme

^^ I know. We all know. But the idea of reducing speed limits as a "joker" for all anti-pollution/congestion measures is still stuck deep in our governments. The French are doing the same thing around big cities such as Marseille, and during this term the Spanish central government has been preparing a law that will impose mandatory speed limits in _all_ motorways depending on how far they are from a city. The creation of low-emission zones like in Germany or Italy is, however, unclear, as restrictions will be decided by local governments -which is scary, given that there are cities like Zaragoza or Pontevedra that have been already implementing very strict anti-car measures (such as city-wide 30 km/h speed limits).

All political parties seem to favor this regulations so this is only the beginning.


----------



## Reivajar

^^ What are the restrictions in such low-emission zones in Italy or Germany? I've seen them, but I'm not sure it is just about increasing parking fares (just like the low-emission areas in Madrid), or about traffic restriction for residents as the APR shown in the map I've posted.


----------



## MichiH

Reivajar said:


> What are the restrictions in such low-emission zones in Italy or Germany?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-emission_zone

Germany: Almost all vehicles fulfill the conditions (meanwhile).
Speed limits are also implemented, e.g. in the _Stuttgart_ area: B10/B313 b/n A81 _Zuffenhausen_ and A8 _Wendlingen_ 80 for cars, 60 for trucks.
There was a study that in one case the speed limit increased the emissions....


----------



## verreme

Reivajar said:


> ^^ What are the restrictions in such low-emission zones in Italy or Germany? I've seen them, but I'm not sure it is just about increasing parking fares (just like the low-emission areas in Madrid), or about traffic restriction for residents as the APR shown in the map I've posted.


Turin:










But every municipality sets the restrictions.


----------



## Reivajar

^^So, finally the concept is not that different from the Residents Priority Areas in Madrid.

How is the equivalent to those areas in Barcelona?


----------



## RV

Well why don't the masses complain?! This is stupid, I would never expect this from PP!


----------



## alserrod

A single example... the city of Huesca made a huge pedestrian project on city centre one year ago.

They improved local bus (yeah... first new bus service user can say here "helllooooooo"  and post the ticket again) and it is possible to go by car only to underground parkings and following specific streets.


And the rest of city centre remains closed to cars.
There are exceptions. For instance, any citizen with a garage can drive through pedestrian streets just to go there. And loading/unloading vans are allowed within 45 minutes with a permission (there are almost one permission every five citizens... but 45 minutes, no more, or fined!!!).

I post some pictures taken in April by myself. They were taken in the same point (just turning 180º but the same street, one with works not started, the other one was almost finished)


You can see here how the city centre has changed. 

Huesca has about 50.000ish inhabitants but it is a province capital and it is the reference city in a lot of km around





alserrod said:


>


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There's nothing wrong with a pedestrian-friendly or pedestrian-only city centers. Historic city centers as in most of Europe were not built for traffic and the population demographic is different from other areas, with a lower car ownership and fewer families.


----------



## alserrod

I strongly agree.

Just google here
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.1372...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sqtvsuYqXQ-yrxxaGputRqQ!2e0

and... it was the image of my first picture some time ago... look at the change.

But re-pedestrian area had several strong points...

Huesca is a small city (city... it is a capital, had the 4th oldest university in Spain and cathedral) with barely congestion. 
It was so easy to drive in the city that people took the car to make a small journey or so.

Nowadays, in peak hours they have one bus every 20 minutes. Improving public transport was a strong point. They have two circle lines making something like a star (going outside, coming to centre, going outside again... while they make a tour to the city, either clockwise or anticlockwise).

In addition, people living there is free to drive to their home but no one else. Only loading... and if they want to stop for a while in a cafeteria, they must do it out of the pedestrian area (or within the 45 minutes gap... or paying a fine).


When they closed city centre to traffic, works started but they didn't close a street just when works were to be started but... all at the same time.
This is... there are some street (such as the second picture I posted) where asphalt remains but it is forbidden to drive there. Pedestrians can use the whole street (anyway, people is not used to walk over the asphalt there) even if it is not refurbished as pedestrian.


Huesca is not the biggest city in Spain at all (it is the third smaller capital and there are many other ones bigger than it) but can be a good example about how to stop cars in the centre.

Making a tour around the city (old city is a hill and you may enter from the north while all city centre is in the southern side looking from the hill), you are able to go to any car park in the city centre, anyway.


----------



## Suburbanist

Is Huesca the capital or Aragón?


----------



## alserrod

No, it isn't. It is Zaragoza.

Huesca is 72 km away from Zaragoza, the 2nd largest city.

Anyway, the "capital" means only where the parliament is located and few other things. 
The real fact is that Zaragoza has almost 700.000 inhabitants (more than half of Aragon) and Huesca, being the second largest, 50.000ish people


----------



## Reivajar

The plan proposed by the Municipality of Madrid about enlarging the Residential Priority Areas in the city center (posted above) has been cancelled by now as after the last meetings there is no consensus among the different concerned associations and organizations. 

http://www.abc.es/madrid/20141005/abci-ayuntamiento-aparca-cierre-trafico-201410042046.html (in Spanish).


----------



## verreme

The HOV lanes in C-58 near Barcelona have been converted to a two-way facility after traffic not having met the expectations (it was always below 4,000 vehicles per day). Maintenance costs were also very high, since they had to be opened and closed several times a day as they operated inbound in the morning, outbound in the afternoon and they were closed at night. They will now be open 24/7.

I recorded a video of them shortly after their re-opening. I shot it at night so you can see the funky lighting of "Carril BUS-VAO". This is one of only two facilities like this in Spain (the other one is in A-6 in Madrid), and the only one that's two-way. It's even got its own route number -C-58cc, where "cc" stands for "calçada central" (center carriageway).






The cones in the median are not permanent; they were only placed as an additional measure to remind drivers of the change in the road layout.

In case you were curious, this is "Carril BUS-VAO" in its original layout:


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Is it sill a bus+HOV only lane?


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Is it sill a bus+HOV only lane?


Apart from buses and cars or vans with 2+ passengers, electric/hybrid vehicles and persons with reduced mobility can also use it, as well as motorcycles. When it opened restrictions were the same except for cars (it was a 3+ lane). The three-passenger restriction was lifted few months after.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

HOV lanes don't make sense in areas with decent public transport. That's the reason why there are almost no HOV lanes of motorways in Europe.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> HOV lanes don't make sense in areas with decent public transport. That's the reason why there are almost no HOV lanes of motorways in Europe.


As of today, everyone agrees that this project was a complete waste of money. When it was proposed and built, money was available and the greens were in the regional government, so there were a lot of wacky transport-related measures going on -especially the 80 km/h speed limit in all urban motorways and these HOV lanes. The conversion of them to a 24/7, two-way facility is intended to make it more efficient without necessarily improving usage levels -they are expected to stay below 4,000 vehicles per day.

They don't save you a lot of time, either. Inbound, you lose a good deal of what you've won when you arrive at the stoplight. Plus, during most of the time mainline C-58 will flow at 80-120 km/h. You can't exceed 90 km/h in Carril BUS-VAO and you're very likely to encounter some moron doing 70 km/h so that you'll actually lose time.

Another downside is that you can't enter Nus de la Trinitat interchange directly. There's a purpose-built exit that spares you the weaving, but you still have to go through several traffic lights, when the procedure is completely free-flowing through mainline C-58. I sketched it up over a Google Maps screenshot so that you can understand it:










In red, the route to Ronda Litoral from Carril BUS-VAO. In green, same route when coming from mainline C-58, and in black the stoplights you must go through. As you can see, it's poorly designed, and it is only helpful for drivers entering or leaving Barcelona via Avinguda Meridiana, and not for those taking the ringroad -which are a big part of C-58 traffic. This is a bit of a paradox given that it was conceived to please the greens -those who want to take traffic out of the city at all cost.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-23 Huesca - Jaca*

_La ministra de Fomento, Ana Pastor, asistirá mañana viernes, 10 de octubre, a la puesta en servicio del tramo Arguis-Alto de Monrepós de la A-23, en la provincia de Huesca._

Another segment of A-23 opens to traffic tomorrow at 17:00 hrs. Is this the 3.2 km segment?


----------



## alserrod

Thank you very much...

It will be first Monrepos tunnel.

You will approach until Arguis with a 2x2 motorway. Then 1x1 for about 2,5 km and after tomorroy, 2x2 again with the first tunnel. It is a 1,45 km tunnel, thus the 3 km motorway stretch.

After the tunnel, mountain pass will remain in both directions and just arriving Sabiñanigo we have a new A-23 motorway opened this July.

I know that somewhere in the northern side of Monrepos works keep on, but not the whole stretch


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> La ministra de Fomento, Ana Pastor, asistirá mañana viernes, 10 de octubre, a la puesta en servicio del tramo Arguis-Alto de Monrepós de la A-23, en la provincia de Huesca.
> 
> Another segment of A-23 opens to traffic tomorrow at 17:00 hrs. Is this the 3.2 km segment?


Yup, Arguis-Monrepos summit (although it stops two km before the actual summit), which is basically a tunnel and its approach, down to exit 381. I'll try to be there. The worst thing, is that the Isuela gorge-Arguis section, between this one and the longest continuous A-23 section (378 km, all the way to Sagunto), is stopped and won't restart until at least 2016, so it will be a bottleneck.


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## alserrod

And a black spot going to Huesca


----------



## alserrod

Breaking news


As said, A-23 has 3,2 more km. since toda

Current situation


From this point https://www.google.es/maps/place/22...m2!3m1!1s0xd583a1d99a6babb:0xe93703a3d30b4f29 to the south, full completed

First tunnel with a doubled lane (two tunnels) and 2x2 since today
https://www.google.es/maps/place/22...m2!3m1!1s0xd583a1d99a6babb:0xe93703a3d30b4f29

(only first tunnel!!)

This side is currently on works
https://www.google.es/maps/place/22...m2!3m1!1s0xd583a1d99a6babb:0xe93703a3d30b4f29


And it is announced that the other two stretches will keep on while 2014

this one (incuiding a 3 km tunnel)
https://www.google.es/maps/place/22...m2!3m1!1s0xd583a1d99a6babb:0xe93703a3d30b4f29

and this short one (but mainly tunnel)
https://www.google.es/maps/place/22...m2!3m1!1s0xd583a1d99a6babb:0xe93703a3d30b4f29


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-23*

_Pastor anuncia la reactivación de dos nuevos tramos de la A-23 en 2015_

Se trata de los tramos Congosto del Isuela-Arguís y Alto de Monrepós-Caldearenas. Además, los Presupuestos incluyen una partida para continuar las obras en el tramo Caldearenas-Lanave, reactivadas en 2014.​
Construction will be resumed on two segments of A-23, which connect to the section opened to traffic today.

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...NICACION/NOTICIAS1/2014/OCTUBRE/141010-03.htm


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## alserrod

That's right... nowadays you have motorway about 5 km after Nueno cross.
After it, about 2 km single road (which will require a new tunnel). Works are halted and will be kept again in 2015 according to press release.
It will be a bottle neck

Later, 3 km motorway where a doubled tunnel (1,45 km) to approach summit. It is expected to have lane through Jaca via a new tunnel and through Huesca using current summit road.

After these tunnels, works are halted again and it is expected to have works again in 2015.

Finnally, being in the last side of the mountain pass and until Lanave village, works are on going currently


From Lanave to 3 km before Sabiñanigo there are no news

In the easter side of Sabiñanigo, several km were opened in July.

Last side of Sabiñanigo overpass is to have a new project due to environmental issues.

And Sabiñanigo-Jaca is opened since several years ago.


----------



## CNGL

Great news. As I said earlier, the Isuela gorge-Arguis section is now a gap in the motorway and will be surely a bottleneck for the next few years. I've already seen some pavement on the Caldearenas-Lanave section. When this strecht, the Monrepos summit-Caldearenas and the section that opened today are complete, the old road across the pass will be restored for slow vehicles. Due to lack of space, between Nueno and Arguis the motorway won't (already doesn't since it's open up to the Isuela gorge) have any vehicle restrictions.


Suburbanist said:


> Is Huesca the capital or Aragón?


It was for 20 years back in the 12th Century.


----------



## verreme

Barcelona city council is negotiating with Fomento the transformation of Ronda Litoral (B-10) in Morrot area. Basically, they want this 40-year old viaduct to be torn down and replace it with a layout similar to the one in other sections of Ronda Litoral and Ronda de Dalt: an expressway-grade lower level with 2x2 lanes for through traffic, and an upper level that would be a 1+1 city street. This is part of a large urban renewal project that will redevelop the areas of the port closest to downtown, now that the expansion to the South is complete (a motorway access to the new areas of the port is also planned).

Financing is, as usual, the biggest problem right now. Right now, under the viaduct there's a railway yard that will be moved, but apparently Fomento does not want to give the land to the council. Morrot viaduct is the worst bottleneck in Ronda Litoral; it carries 100,000+ vehicles a day in 2x2 narrow lanes. The proposed plan will not add any capacity, but it will at least make the area much nicer -it's currently one of the ugliest, dirtiest parts of the city. Plus, the upper level will be accessible to everyone. As of today, only authorized vehicles can bypass this viaduct, as the current lower level is part of the port premises.

Source

On a side note, it's amazing how dumb journalists can be -apart from the title saying "Ronda Litoral will become a promenade", which is _really_ far from reality, the author of the article labels this infrastructure as "complex", which reveals how "simple" his understanding of the project is. God, three quarters of the city's ringroad are that "complex".


----------



## mcarling

What is the status of the TF-1 in Tenerife? It seems like the extension from Adeje to Santiago del Teide has been completed for at least a year, but it hasn't been opened.


----------



## Reivajar

SEIM has posted on the Spanish forum the plans of the new access to the Barcelona port from the motorway A-2.



SEIM said:


> A10


----------



## MichiH

Is there still any motorway opening expected until end of 2014?



MichiH said:


> *A15:* Radona – Medinaceli (A2) 12 12.1km (? to 2014) – ? – map
> *A33:* La Font de la Figuera (A35) – Caudete (A31) 12 12.5km (? to 2014) – ? – map
> *A38:* Cullera – Favara (AP-7) 2 10km (? to 2014) – ? – map
> *A38:* Benissa-North – Benissa-South 12 4km (? to 2014) – ? – map
> *M509:* Villanueva del Pardillo – Majadahonda (M50) 12 5.1km (? to 2014) – ? – map
> *A2:* Sils – Caldes de Malavella 12 6.7km (2009 to Late 2014) – ? – map
> *A8:* La Franca – Unquera 12 4.5km (? to Late 2014) – ? – map
> *A7:* Castillo de Banos – Albunol 12 14.8km (? to December 2014) – ? – map


Any updated info about the completion of this projects?


----------



## alserrod

A15 Radona-Medinaceli is expected to be opened soon except two kilometres in the jonction with A-2 where works go slowly and will require more time


----------



## adevahi

Works in SE-40 will cause cut of A-49 all the nights from next week until february, so is true that they are working :banana::banana::banana:



> DESVÍOS DE TRÁFICO A PARTIR DEL LUNES 17 DE NOVIEMBRE
> 14/11/2014
> 
> 
> A partir de la próximo semana, del 17 al 21 de noviembre, y durante los meses de diciembre y enero y febrero de 2015, durante la noche y de lunes a jueves, se producirán desvíos de tráfico en la A-49. Según ha informado la Demarcación de Carreteras del Estado, los desvíos se producirán entre los enlace Gines-Bormujos (PK5) y Umbrete-Bollullos (PK11), con motivo de la colocación de las vigas y ejecución de los tableros de las estructuras del futuro enlace entre la SE-40 y la A-49. Serán desvíos de carácter nocturno, entre las 23:00 horas y las 06:00 del día siguiente. Se ha previsto como itinerario alternativo la carretera A-474 como se detalla en el croquis.


http://www.bormujos.es/opencms/open...oticias/trafico/noticia_044.html#.VGd6S_mG-So


----------



## verreme

A video of A-2 in Barcelona province. This stretch is a perfect example of a first-generation _autovía_ -a direct duplication of the existing road. It has awesome views on Montserrat mountain, too, and a tunnel under the site of a famous 1808 battle against the French.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

AG-55 Carballo - Baio will open in October 2016, according to this article: http://www.elidealgallego.com/artic...-listo-octubre-2016/20141119225143218077.html


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

*[E] N-II Cervera - Santa Maria del Camí*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

La ministra de Fomento, Ana Pastor, ha presidido hoy en Cornellá de Llobregat (Barcelona) el acto de colocación de la primera piedra de las obras del “Nuevo acceso Sur viario al Puerto de Barcelona”.​
http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...CACION/NOTICIAS1/2014/DICIEMBRE/141204-01.htm

Construction on the new access road to the Port of Barcelona commenced today.


----------



## alserrod

In these days we have had several news about A-12 Logroño-Burgos in the streches without project. They are about two of them only... and let's hope to have something projected in 2015.


----------



## RV

alserrod said:


> In these days we have had several news about A-12 Logroño-Burgos in the streches without project. They are about two of them only... and let's hope to have something projected in 2015.


What is the expected AADT, there in the middle of the mountains? 

Such roads are usually unworthy to built in Spain, except vital routes, because Spain has urban sprawl only in the coast and in the big cities, and even there few of it except Madrid and Barcelona; Spanish cities are extremely densely built, and a 150,000 inhabitant city in Spain can look from Google Earth like a 15,000 inhabitant town in the US, or in the Nordics, for example. If the AADT justifies it outside the cities surroundings, then it's another story.

But I still think that simple, cheap widening of some Madrid overcrowded entrance roads should be well much above this kind of roads.

Also, I just don't understand why they, instead of upgrading an existing motorway with 100,000 AADT and 2x2 lanes build near it but far outside all urbanization, in the middle of the forest and mountains built huge 4x4 toll roads that nobody, or maybe 10,000 off the users of the old road uses it. The problem still stays...


----------



## alserrod

The A-12 is the shortest route between Barcelona and Porto for instance (and so many cities within Spain).

You can see low traffic rates out of main routes but it is known that if a new motorway is built, traffic from other motorways decreases and this new one (when fully built) increases a lot.

And for instance... A-4 joins Madrid-Cordoba-Seville-Cadiz buuuuuuut the SHORTEST and FASTEST way for a Madrid-Sevilla is via Merida, not via Cordoba (obviously depending of the corner of Madrid and Seville you choose, several minutes and kilometres can change but it was enough to build there the A-66 and people now uses A-5 and A-66 instead of A-4 to go to Sevilla)


----------



## sponge_bob

RV said:


> Also, I just don't understand why they, instead of upgrading an existing motorway with 100,000 AADT and 2x2 lanes build near it but far outside all urbanization, in the middle of the forest and mountains built huge 4x4 toll roads that nobody, or maybe 10,000 off the users of the old road uses it. The problem still stays...


Spain is the great mystery of motorway building. 

However Spain will complete their fantastic primary motorway network in 2015 when the long awaited A7 A8 and A66 sections are compete. 

Then we'll have a row about the next 2 problems.

1. Naming the bloody things consistently. 
2. Capacity Upgrade works. Mainly around cities like you said.

Spain suffers from a unique problem which will not go away. The rich bits with the most congestion are also the bits with the worst terrain where upgrades are expensive. Generally near France but not always.

It could cost 10x to add a single badly needed extra lane in the Basque country compared to what a brand new 2+2 would cost in Murcia or over near Portugal.

But no question about the quality of the overall network.


----------



## CNGL

I actually do not care about numbering. I go by colo(u)rs instead: blue is a motorway, then regular roads are red, orange, green and yellow in decreasing importance order. Anyway, they should fix that A-231 problem.

In other news, last month some renumbering took place in my province. First I found that A-1211 signs in Almudevar had been patched to A-1210, meaning that road was rerouted away from the paved rural road to San Jorge and A-1211 was truncated to Tardienta. I then believed A-1210 ran from Almudevar to near Sariñena, but some days later returning from Caspe I discovered A-1213 had been extended from Grañen over A-1210, so now the later only has the Tardienta-Grañen section of its original routing remaining.


----------



## verreme

RV said:


> What is the expected AADT, there in the middle of the mountains?
> 
> Such roads are usually unworthy to built in Spain, except vital routes, because Spain has urban sprawl only in the coast and in the big cities, and even there few of it except Madrid and Barcelona; Spanish cities are extremely densely built, and a 150,000 inhabitant city in Spain can look from Google Earth like a 15,000 inhabitant town in the US, or in the Nordics, for example. If the AADT justifies it outside the cities surroundings, then it's another story.
> 
> But I still think that simple, cheap widening of some Madrid overcrowded entrance roads should be well much above this kind of roads.
> 
> Also, I just don't understand why they, instead of upgrading an existing motorway with 100,000 AADT and 2x2 lanes build near it but far outside all urbanization, in the middle of the forest and mountains built huge 4x4 toll roads that nobody, or maybe 10,000 off the users of the old road uses it. The problem still stays...


Come on, you're always talking the same "useless road" bullcrap and we have answered you a thousand times already. AADT will be low, though this is a very important route as it is the shortest connection between Northeastern and Northwestern Spain, so there's a lot of heavy traffic. Plus, it will be cheap, because terrain is not complicated and land is basically worthless, which is the reason we have that many motorways with less than 10,000 vehicles a day -*they're cheap to build, so the cost-benefit analysis is still favourable*. And when I say cheap I say 10 times cheaper than the average German motorway. Of course we've made mistakes, but A-12 will not be one of them. Neither are A-43, A-23 (the Southern part) or other motorways where traffic is low, but were cheap to build.

In exchange, expanding road capacity around Madrid would be obscenely expensive and benefits limited, because the city is just too small to fit all the cars there are.

Spain has made mistakes, but we are not "Southern lazy old farts living on welfare". Damn.


----------



## RV

verreme said:


> Come on, you're always talking the same "useless road" bullcrap and we have answered you a thousand times already. AADT will be low, though this is a very important route as it is the shortest connection between Northeastern and Northwestern Spain, so there's a lot of heavy traffic. Plus, it will be cheap, because terrain is not complicated and land is basically worthless, which is the reason we have that many motorways with less than 10,000 vehicles a day -*they're cheap to build, so the cost-benefit analysis is still favourable*. And when I say cheap I say 10 times cheaper than the average German motorway. Of course we've made mistakes, but A-12 will not be one of them. Neither are A-43, A-23 (the Southern part) or other motorways where traffic is low, but were cheap to build.
> 
> In exchange, expanding road capacity around Madrid would be obscenely expensive and benefits limited, because the city is just too small to fit all the cars there are.
> 
> Spain has made mistakes, but we are not "Southern lazy old farts living on welfare". Damn.



Damn. I have lived in Spain for 7 years and talk excellent Spanish without any accent.

For example, N340 Fuengirola-Marbella is a shame! Full of deadly-dangerous accessess every 100 metres, junctions without acceleration lanes and 2x2 while traffic is 65 000 - 85 000. Capacity around big cities is a priority; you do things like every European country started to build motorways between every single town of at least 30,000 inhabitants.


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## Reivajar

^^ Old A-7 "_autovía_" along the Western Costa del Sol is one of the worst dual carriageways of the Spanish network for sure.

However, it is again a pretty expensive project as the road is completely surrounded by urbanised areas where, furthermore, price of plots is pretty expensive as it is a well-known tourist destination. To sum up, it is a really expensive project.

I have no idea about the fatalities rate along this road, but in principle, I would prefer to reserve money for building the new railway corridor along the coast (actually, the problem along the Western Costa del Sol is not the A-7, but the lack of alternatives of transportation different that road further than Fuengirola for getting around). If you want to avoid the crappy A-7, you can use the paralel AP-7 tolled motorway. So, there is an alternative. A-7 should be used mostly just for local traffic, but as lots of people want to avoid the tolled road, it has an additional amount of long distance traffic.

Anyway, for solving the congestion problems around cities, a city planning avoiding excesive sprawl (which in Spain is relatively OK comparing to the rest of Europe as cities as pretty compact) and focusing more on developing commuter trains networks (which are far from being extensive and afficient enough) would be better than building more and more motorways and roads.


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## alserrod

Old A-68 western Zaragoza could be worst at all!!!

After several works, it has 9 km with a 90 km/h speed limit


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## Reivajar

Among the dual carriageways in Spain, A-68 in western Zaragoza and A-7 in western _Costa del Sol_ are probably the worst ones. As well, the A-42 and A-5 access to Madrid are really bad, from the road design point of view, and from the urban point of view too. N-I/A-1 in the Etxegarate mountain pass towards Vitoria is as well pure crap.


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## verreme

RV said:


> Damn. I have lived in Spain for 7 years and talk excellent Spanish without any accent.
> 
> For example, N340 Fuengirola-Marbella is a shame! Full of deadly-dangerous accessess every 100 metres, junctions without acceleration lanes and 2x2 while traffic is 65 000 - 85 000. Capacity around big cities is a priority; you do things like every European country started to build motorways between every single town of at least 30,000 inhabitants.


As I said before, expanding capacity along these urban corridors would be awfully expensive. Something we can't afford now, nor in 2007 when our economy was booming. There have been improvements anyway, such as San Pedro de Alcántara tunnel in A-7. No European country is carrying this kind of expansion. In the Netherlands, for example, they're widening a good part of their network, but this doesn't imply tearing down thousands of buildings. No European country is doing this, it would make sense in the 1960s, but now it's just crazy.


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## Escargot

A-68 a bad highway? Of course, nonetheless it has a wonderful point: while you are driving, you find so many things to criticise that the only topic of interest is the road itself, and consequently your passengers are not talking about crappy topics such as politics or religion.


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## RV

Reivajar said:


> ^^ Old A-7 "_autovía_" along the Western Costa del Sol is one of the worst dual carriageways of the Spanish network for sure.
> 
> However, it is again a pretty expensive project as the road is completely surrounded by urbanised areas where, furthermore, price of plots is pretty expensive as it is a well-known tourist destination. To sum up, it is a really expensive project.
> 
> I have no idea about the fatalities rate along this road, but in principle, I would prefer to reserve money for building the new railway corridor along the coast (actually, the problem along the Western Costa del Sol is not the A-7, but the lack of alternatives of transportation different that road further than Fuengirola for getting around). If you want to avoid the crappy A-7, you can use the paralel AP-7 tolled motorway. So, there is an alternative. A-7 should be used mostly just for local traffic, but as lots of people want to avoid the tolled road, it has an additional amount of long distance traffic.
> 
> Anyway, for solving the congestion problems around cities, a city planning avoiding excesive sprawl (which in Spain is relatively OK comparing to the rest of Europe as cities as pretty compact) and focusing more on developing commuter trains networks (which are far from being extensive and afficient enough) would be better than building more and more motorways and roads.



The railway corridor is of course in need. What I mean is that projects like A-2 from 2x2 to 2x3 in Madrid and other big cities are cheaper than giant bridges in low ADT roads in the countryside. For example, Hiperronda didn't quit much traffic from the old A7 (still 90,000 ADT and 2x2), only by-passing traffic use this too remote route with 4x4 lanes and 20 000-45 000 ADT. I am sure that upgrading the old A7 to 2x3 on those few kilometres and building Hiperronda 2x2-2x3 would be a much cheaper solution. Alicante by-pass doesn't cut distance at all, and is a complete fiasco with it's (3,000?) ADT. As so I also don't believe SE-40 is reasonable as big as it's planned outside commuter towns of Sevilla.

In Fuengirola, where A7 congestion is worst, there is also a proper highway by-passing it. Of course it would be more expensive to upgrade it to 2x3 that a route in the Castilian plateau, but traffic on this urban motorway is up to 80,000. What comes to the following "A"7, it would be indeed difficult to upgrade it, but there is place to at least add acceleration lanes. The route is famous from the many cruxes along it in memoir of those who died in traffic fatalities on this dangerous road...


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## RV

verreme said:


> As I said before, expanding capacity along these urban corridors would be awfully expensive. Something we can't afford now, nor in 2007 when our economy was booming. There have been improvements anyway, such as San Pedro de Alcántara tunnel in A-7. No European country is carrying this kind of expansion. In the Netherlands, for example, they're widening a good part of their network, but this doesn't imply tearing down thousands of buildings. No European country is doing this, it would make sense in the 1960s, but now it's just crazy.


Well European countries like for example Sweden, Denmark, France and Germany to name are expanding their network's capacity, just because it is the only solution, no matter how many train networks you build. No 1000 tonnes of cement or furniture for a new house in a train... Also Barcelona-Tarragona regions. The other counties are focusing on this no-mans-land extremely expensive by-passes.

Also, old Autovias around cities are built often with wide medians. A2 is 2x3 to Guadalajara, A4 to Aranjuez, A6 to Villacastin (80 kms!). There is a really serious need on A3 (up to 120,000 ADT) Madrid-Arganda del Rey, A5 Mostoles-Navalcarnero (50,000-120,000 ADT) and A1 Alcobendas-El Molar for such upgrades. In stead of building R-1 that nobody will use! A1 is a trunk road in poor conditions and the main route to France.


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## verreme

^^ How do you know R-1 will be built? Such plans existed, but that means nothing -there were also plans to build an outer ringroad of Madrid via Toledo and Aranda de Duero, but this will never be built. Fortunately, we left behind 2004-2007 thinking.

As for roads around Madrid, they all feature 3x3 lanes or more plus collector lanes. A-2 has that layout until Guadalajara, A-3 until Arganda del Rey, A-4 until Pinto and A-6 until Las Rozas -which makes Madrid one of the least congested cities in Europe, with only 20 minutes lost per hour of travel according to TomTom's 2013 congestion report (cities way smaller such as Stuttgart or Marseille are far behind). It's the same in Barcelona. The ringroad has some congestion during peak hours, but there's a bypass that flows most of the time, and roads going out of the city are all 3+3 or more.

There's congestion in Madrid, sure, but no European city has better roads. Not even Paris. Yes there would be less congestion if they built a 10-lane motorway under La Castellana and turned every other road into a car park to cope with that many cars. But we won't build that because we're not crazy.

As always, you're deliberately saying things that are not true, such as the roads around Madrid being substandard or not able to cope with traffic. That is a lie. You look like a web bot -people reply you, yet some time later you post the same question.


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## ChrisZwolle

The TomTom Congestion Index: http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/

It shows Spanish cities are listed very low (=less congestion). Madrid is by far the lowest ranked 5+ million metro area.


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## alserrod

Wow... I live in the only Top60 European cities without congestion on motorways!!!!


(looking to them it will be hard to find congestion on motorways. Southern one has barely traffic and northern one was enlarged to a 2+3x3+2


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## RV

[Delete


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## RV

verreme said:


> ^^ How do you know R-1 will be built? Such plans existed, but that means nothing -there were also plans to build an outer ringroad of Madrid via Toledo and Aranda de Duero, but this will never be built. Fortunately, we left behind 2004-2007 thinking.
> 
> As for roads around Madrid, they all feature 3x3 lanes or more plus collector lanes. A-2 has that layout until Guadalajara, A-3 until Arganda del Rey, A-4 until Pinto and A-6 until Las Rozas -which makes Madrid one of the least congested cities in Europe, with only 20 minutes lost per hour of travel according to TomTom's 2013 congestion report (cities way smaller such as Stuttgart or Marseille are far behind). It's the same in Barcelona. The ringroad has some congestion during peak hours, but there's a bypass that flows most of the time, and roads going out of the city are all 3+3 or more.
> 
> There's congestion in Madrid, sure, but no European city has better roads. Not even Paris. Yes there would be less congestion if they built a 10-lane motorway under La Castellana and turned every other road into a car park to cope with that many cars. But we won't build that because we're not crazy.
> 
> As always, you're deliberately saying things that are not true, such as the roads around Madrid being substandard or not able to cope with traffic. That is a lie. You look like a web bot -people reply you, yet some time later you post the same question.


That's not true. A-3 (Madrid-Valencia) is 2x2 from M-50 to Arganda with _some_ sections with collector lanes. ADT near 100 000.

A-6 3+3 + HOV till M-50, then 4+4 till AP-61 (Km 63, sections with 2+4+4+2 and a weird triple tunnel, guess for holiday traffic jams), and 3+3 till Km 81 (AP-51)

A-5 is a very low quality expressway/street with overpasses till M-40 with basically 3+3. Then 3+3 till Mostoles, and an upgrading is going on near Mostoles, but the section from there to Navalcarnero is ADT 50 000-80 000 and 2x2.

A-41 is 3+3 till Parla, but 2+2 till Toledo (ADT 40 000-70 000)

A-4 is fine with 3+3 till Aranjuez. A widening on this I think busiest Madrid access road should be considered though, with collector lines for example.

A-3 is 3+3 just till M-50. M-50-Arganda is 2+2 with ADT up to 100 000.

A-2 was finally just upgraded to proper 3+3 to Guadalajara.

A-1 is 3+3 or more till Guadalcampo, but up from there to El Molar it is in the same conditions as in the 1980's (just adding another carriageway next to the old road)! ADT over 50 000.

So you could explore more your land


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## CNGL

^^ It's only A-6 up to Collado Villalba. Then, it becomes tolled and thus AP-6. Also, A-41? That only runs between Ciudad Real and Puertollano! (It's A-42 ).

After Guadalajara, A-2 is then 2x2 all the way to near Zaragoza (Which is OK as it stands now, last Saturday I drove it all the way to Ariza, exit 193), then at exit 304 it becomes 2x3 (Note that Madrid-bound the third lane is retained as a slow traffic lane due to the ascent to La Muela, being dropped at exit 299), then the Zaragoza Northern ring is either 2x4 or 2+3+3+2, after that it narrows to 2x3 to exit 330, and then continues as 2x2 until exit 339, where the motorway exits itself (Straight through is the tolled AP-2) and ends, leaving nothing but a 2 laned N-II for the next 90 km toll free. And it's full of trucks! (And due to one I haven't droven part of it yet, if now I would have driven almost 200 km of A-2/N-II in a single chunk now). Also in my last road trip, I found A-2 is actually shorter than what is posted .


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## verreme

RV said:


> That's not true. A-3 (Madrid-Valencia) is 2x2 from M-50 to Arganda with _some_ sections with collector lanes. ADT near 100 000.
> 
> A-6 3+3 + HOV till M-50, then 4+4 till AP-61 (Km 63, sections with 2+4+4+2 and a weird triple tunnel, guess for holiday traffic jams), and 3+3 till Km 81 (AP-51)
> 
> A-5 is a very low quality expressway/street with overpasses till M-40 with basically 3+3. Then 3+3 till Mostoles, and an upgrading is going on near Mostoles, but the section from there to Navalcarnero is ADT 50 000-80 000 and 2x2.
> 
> A-41 is 3+3 till Parla, but 2+2 till Toledo (ADT 40 000-70 000)
> 
> A-4 is fine with 3+3 till Aranjuez. A widening on this I think busiest Madrid access road should be considered though, with collector lines for example.
> 
> A-3 is 3+3 just till M-50. M-50-Arganda is 2+2 with ADT up to 100 000.
> 
> A-2 was finally just upgraded to proper 3+3 to Guadalajara.
> 
> A-1 is 3+3 or more till Guadalcampo, but up from there to El Molar it is in the same conditions as in the 1980's (just adding another carriageway next to the old road)! ADT over 50 000.
> 
> So you could explore more your land


You exagerate AADT figures -AADT on A-3 between Rivas and Arganda (which is 2x2) is nowhere near 100,000 vehicles a day. Anyway, here are the plans to make it 3x3. As for A-1, there are also plans to build a 3rd lane until San Agustín de Guadalix. They were withdrawn earlier this year due to cost reasons, but they are not cancelled. A-5 is going to be widened to 3x3 lanes between Móstoles and Parque Coimbra (budget has already been approved).

As for A-42, there are no plans to extend the 3rd lane further South, and I honestly think it's not necessary.

As you can see, these roads are not neglected. Plans to make them 3x3 are in different stages, but the 3rd lane will be built sooner or later. We just have no money -and right now finishing roads that have been U/C for a decade or more is more important than tendering new stuff.


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## RV

verreme said:


> You exagerate AADT figures -AADT on A-3 between Rivas and Arganda (which is 2x2) is nowhere near 100,000 vehicles a day. Anyway, here are the plans to make it 3x3. As for A-1, there are also plans to build a 3rd lane until San Agustín de Guadalix. They were withdrawn earlier this year due to cost reasons, but they are not cancelled. A-5 is going to be widened to 3x3 lanes between Móstoles and Parque Coimbra (budget has already been approved).
> 
> As for A-42, there are no plans to extend the 3rd lane further South, and I honestly think it's not necessary.
> 
> As you can see, these roads are not neglected. Plans to make them 3x3 are in different stages, but the 3rd lane will be built sooner or later. We just have no money -and right now finishing roads that have been U/C for a decade or more is more important than tendering new stuff.


This are good news, but the widening of A-5 is as I remember just about 3-4 Km's or so. It needs to be widened to Navalcarnero. 

Good news for A-3.

As for A-1, it is a very dangerous road in the section we mention. It needs to be upgraded. 

And yes, I'm sorry, I ment A-42. AP-41 has ADT below 1,000 :lol:

ANOTHER uncomprehensible thing in Spain: parallel tolled waste-of money roads and bad-quality non-tolled expressways! Instead of upgrading A-2, quit the tolls in a little section of the AP-2 -.-


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## verreme

^^ R-2 was a mistake, as well as R-3, R-4, R-5 and AP-41. The only purpose of these motorways was to fill the pockets of the contractors that built them. Our economy was doing well and so did corruption. As for AP-2, it does not follow the same corridor of A-2, so they serve different purposes. AP-2 has reasonable traffic levels (over 15,000 vpd) despite being tolled and A-2 between Fraga and Barcelona does not need any widening -traffic is low and when it isn't, it's 3+3 or more. Plus, there are several upgrades U/C in Barcelona metro area.


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## alserrod

+0.5

They were a huuuuuuge mistake


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## ChrisZwolle

AP-41 could only be profitable if there was non-stop congestion on A-42. Or if the entire area between Madrid and Toledo was developed.


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## CNGL

^^ Don't forget the original plans for AP-41, which were cancelled due to environmental concerns.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> AP-41 could only be profitable if there was non-stop congestion on A-42. Or if the entire area between Madrid and Toledo was developed.


Neither in that case...

look at the map and it was required to give some tours. It takes longer by a tolled motorway rather than a free motorway!!!

It had to have a great congestion to be profitable...


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> AP-41 could only be profitable if there was non-stop congestion on A-42. Or if the entire area between Madrid and Toledo was developed.


At 2006 growth levels, it's likely that the entire Madrid province would be built up by now. But those levels (the ones upon which motorway plans were drawn) were unsustainable and unrealistic. AP-41 was a botched job of a road anyway -just look at the lack of interchanges. It crosses CM-41 and A-42, yet there's no connection between them. As I said before, the single purpose of this road was filling someone's pockets -something we're very familiar with in Spain.



CNGL said:


> ^^ Don't forget the original plans for AP-41, which were cancelled due to environmental concerns.


The original plans for A-41 to Córdoba didn't _require_ a toll road parallel to A-42. If traffic on A-42 was to grow due to long-distance traffic to Córdoba choosing that route over A-4, a widening would have coped with it. But I don't think that building another motorway to Córdoba is necessary. A-4 has enough capacity, especially now that Despeñaperros pass is not a problem anymore. Plus, traffic to Sevilla has now the option to use A-5+A-66.

This is (more or less) the route that A-41 would have followed:











(Videos are not mine).

As you can see, the existing road does fine. There's no need for a motorway. Plus, that area has a high environmental value. That's why _Ministerio de Medio Ambiente_ didn't let A-41 through.


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## Escargot

Trolled motorways a mistake? I disagree. Mistakes are made unintentionally.


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## CNGL

Wish me luck, in some minutes I'll be crossing the Ventamillo gorge by bus. An adventure awaits for me...


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## sponge_bob

Spain has a fantastic network overall and it will be finished as a _network_ next year when the A7 A8 and A66 are all finally done.

The Radiales madness was caused by the very close connections between some Cajas and certain large road building contractors where the Cajas were almost their personal banks. 

Even though concessions were supposed to save the state money long term it was the same taxpayer who had to bail out those rotten Cajas in the end. Spain will not repeat this mistake again.


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## Suburbanist

Many EU countries overspent in the 1990s and 2000s. However, I think that at least Spain and Portugal got a lot of infrastructure done for the money, it will be there for another century, whereas some other countries burn cash to pay for lots of state employees...


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## ChrisZwolle

I believe Spain had the lowest public debt in southern Europe in 2007.


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## alserrod

It is possible...administrations didn't know what to do with money and the problem is that you may use for something useful then and later and no overcosting either for maintenance.

In Spain it's quite used the word "bubble" to talk about those years


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## Suburbanist

A secondary issue is that construction in Spain is quite cheap compared to other European countries. That applies to everything - from subway to high speed rail, roads, hydro power plants, transmission lines, ports... I don't know exactly why.

When construction is cheaper, you can build roads that would have been uneconomical in other countries like Germany or Italy.

This being said, there are gaps that need to be closed, such as a link between Ciudad Real and Don Benito; and finishing all works on A22/A23 between Huesca and Yesa; and highway links to Somport (French border) and Andorra.


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## alserrod

Yesa-Huesca would be A-21 / A-23 (till Jaca and later). Almost all works are halted but we do know which streches will be on works next years (and which ones will not!!)

Another issue is A-22 Huesca-Sietamo. Have a look to a Huesca-Barcelona journey by...motorway??


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## Suburbanist

alserrod said:


> Another issue is A-22 Huesca-Sietamo. Have a look to a Huesca-Barcelona journey by...motorway??


Travelling from Huesca to Pau would be even more awesome :cheers:


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## alserrod

It would!!! I've done it (either by train/bus/train either by road)

But look at a map. In several years you will have a motorway until northern side of Jaca and just two 50 limits because villages will be between there and the tunnel.

And... what about after the tunnel?. In that side things go slowlier....


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## Suburbanist

alserrod said:


> It would!!! I've done it (either by train/bus/train either by road)
> 
> But look at a map. In several years you will have a motorway until northern side of Jaca and just two 50 limits because villages will be between there and the tunnel.
> 
> And... what about after the tunnel?. In that side things go slowlier....


I'd be happy with a 1+1 modernized road over there already. Especially north of Estaut.


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## sponge_bob

Spain should invest more in Broadband...so people can work from home more...and in water/hydro ....rather than roads. Obviously the 'old' A roads north of Madrid-Valencia need some upgrade love as well. As for more houses or airports.    

But Spain also needs to transmit good news stories after the last few years and the quality of the infrastructure is a good news story well worth showing off to everybody.


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## Suburbanist

Is the quality of broadband in Spain bad? I have no idea...

I'm also not sure there is enough housing. Prices are still high and out of rich of middle classes in many cities. Prices only collapsed a lot in resort cities that had built villas and beach flats like crazy. But the bigger centers like Madri, Zaragoza, Barcelona, Valencia, Bilbao need a lot of housing to bring prices down.


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## VITORIA MAN

more housing in spain ??? i think there are more than 500.000 houses withouth buyers ??


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## Suburbanist

Do they have some plan to connect A58 with A66 in Cáceres?


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> I believe Spain had the lowest public debt in southern Europe in 2007.


Debt was not our main problem -the way our economy worked was. We couldn't rely on building crazy housing development plans everywhere. It was clearly unsustainable.



Suburbanist said:


> A secondary issue is that construction in Spain is quite cheap compared to other European countries. That applies to everything - from subway to high speed rail, roads, hydro power plants, transmission lines, ports... I don't know exactly why.
> 
> When construction is cheaper, you can build roads that would have been uneconomical in other countries like Germany or Italy.
> 
> This being said, there are gaps that need to be closed, such as a link between Ciudad Real and Don Benito; and finishing all works on A22/A23 between Huesca and Yesa; and highway links to Somport (French border) and Andorra.


Construction being cheap is what many people ignore. Road-wise, and exceptuating some idiocies like _radiales_, Spain has spent sensibly.

Such a link between Don Benito and Ciudad Real will never be built. There's hardly any traffic to justify it and the area has a high environmental value -that's why A-43 through that area was cancelled. As for the road to Somport, the existing one is okay on the Spanish side, and the French have explicitly said that they won't do anything to improve their road, so it would be pointless to build a motorway there. The motorway to Andorra is likely to eventually be built, but it's a very difficult project because of the terrain and the involvement of the Spanish and French authorities. At least they have both agreed that such a connection is necessary.


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## Suburbanist

I think many complain about the "waste" on building so many highways between Valencia and Alicant when a simple "square" would do it.


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## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> I think many complain about the "waste" on building so many highways between Valencia and Alicant when a simple "square" would do it.


It's not a waste in any way. AP-7 connects both cities with many coastal towns that attract a lot of tourism in summer. It's not the fastest way between Valencia and Alicante, and it's tolled, but it's vital for cities like Benidorm, Gandia or Denia. Then there's A-38, which makes a lot of sense for towns like Cullera, that are isolated from AP-7.

As for A-7, its purpose is to connect Alcoi with the rest of the world. Alcoi lies in a very isolated valley, yet it's a medium-sized city with some industrial activity. Plus, there's Ibi nearby, which is also an important industrial pole of the region. A-7 goes through some rugged terrain, with some long 80 km/h sections.

The fastest route between Alicante and Valencia is A-31+A-35. AP-7 and A-7 are meant to serve traffic going somewhere between Valencia and Alicante, whilst through traffic is meant to use A-35 and A-31. Terrain is easier and they allow 120 km/h most of the way (A-31 could be better, though). When A-33 in Font de la Figuera is complete, it will be the route of choice between Valencia and Alicante. For me, it already is -the 10 kilometers or so of N-344 are mostly straight and flat except for two bends in the town, and there are no roundabouts or traffic lights.


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## Bitxofo

VITORIA MAN said:


> more housing in spain ??? i think there are more than 500.000 houses withouth buyers ??


And 1 million of empty homes in Spain...
hno:


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## CNGL

Suburbanist said:


> Do they have some plan to connect A58 with A66 in Cáceres?


I've read a new Northern (IIRC) bypass is in the planning stages.


verreme said:


> The motorway to Andorra is likely to eventually be built, but it's a very difficult project because of the terrain and the involvement of the Spanish and French authorities. At least they have both agreed that such a connection is necessary.


A motorway to Andorra is one of my wet dreams .


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## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> *15 December 2014*
> 
> A 5.1 kilometer segment of autovía opened to traffic in Madrid Community. It runs from M-50 near Majadahonda to Villanueva del Pardillo. Construction cost was € 26 million.
> 
> http://www.elmundo.es/madrid/2014/12/15/548f169ee2704e58668b456f.html
> 
> http://www.madrid.org/cs/Satellite?...nguage=es&pagename=ComunidadMadrid/Estructura


Pics:


----------



## sponge_bob

Bitxofo said:


> And 1 million of empty homes in Spain...
> hno:


Spains population grew very strongly from 1998 to 2008 










Along the coast it will not take that much to mop those empties up, dunno about some of those ghost towns on the Meseta near Madrid though!


----------



## RV

verreme said:


> It's not a waste in any way. AP-7 connects both cities with many coastal towns that attract a lot of tourism in summer. It's not the fastest way between Valencia and Alicante, and it's tolled, but it's vital for cities like Benidorm, Gandia or Denia. Then there's A-38, which makes a lot of sense for towns like Cullera, that are isolated from AP-7.
> 
> As for A-7, its purpose is to connect Alcoi with the rest of the world. Alcoi lies in a very isolated valley, yet it's a medium-sized city with some industrial activity. Plus, there's Ibi nearby, which is also an important industrial pole of the region. A-7 goes through some rugged terrain, with some long 80 km/h sections.
> 
> The fastest route between Alicante and Valencia is A-31+A-35. AP-7 and A-7 are meant to serve traffic going somewhere between Valencia and Alicante, whilst through traffic is meant to use A-35 and A-31. Terrain is easier and they allow 120 km/h most of the way (A-31 could be better, though). When A-33 in Font de la Figuera is complete, it will be the route of choice between Valencia and Alicante. For me, it already is -the 10 kilometers or so of N-344 are mostly straight and flat except for two bends in the town, and there are no roundabouts or traffic lights.


Alicante northern by-pass is an idiotism that doesn't make sense if you don't want to go from direction Madrid to direction Zaragoza or the other way.


----------



## RV

ChrisZwolle said:


> Pics:


Now THIS is what Spain needs.


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> I notice there was some isolated expressway-grade sectors of A-334 near Albox in Andalucia. What is the larger project there and when will it be completed?
> 
> Also, is there a more recent full completion date for coastal A7 in Andalucia?


First question: you can see some information on A-334 on MichiH's "New motorway projects" thread. I'm too lazy to quote it here 

Second one: December the 22nd is the official opening date for Polopos-Albuñol (source). The rest will have to wait until 2015.



ChrisZwolle said:


> The announcement is not very specific:
> 
> http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG_CASTELLANO/GABINETE_COMUNICACION/CONVOCATORIAS/141217-01c.htm
> 
> 'northern carriageway' up to Racejo.


I guess it's the whole of A-12/LO-20, including the (in)famous bridge over Ebro river. The meeting point for the inauguration event suggests that it will be held in the bridge itself.

As for the "Northern carriageway" thing, they may open only one carriageway (the Northern one, since this is and East-West road).



Suburbanist said:


> If it costs so little, then it should be built ASAP :cheers:'
> 
> Is land that cheap over there?


It's very low on the priority list. There are other cheap, more necessary projects U/C. This news article (or should I say headline, since the full story is only available to subscribers) says the most advanced stretch (the one between A-31 and A-35, which is the one that carries the most traffic) is again in a standstill. This stretch includes a realignment of A-31.

As for the cost, land is very cheap in Spain. There's a lot of unproductive agricultural land -a result of poor planning dating back to the Middle Ages. Spain is a pioneer when it comes to reforestation, a _lot_ of unproductive land has been turned into forests since the 1940s.


----------



## RV

That A-334 sounds like something like AP-41 or CM-40 for me... Is it built for guys picking olives?


----------



## ajch

RV said:


> That A-334 sounds like something like AP-41 or CM-40 for me... Is it built for guys picking olives?


Extracting marble, its one of the riches areas in Andalucia (or was in the building burble era, now i don't know, but marble can be exported and it was of very high quality). The motorways was because of the high use for truck transporting the marble blocks.


----------



## Suburbanist

What are chances of a new Guadalajara- Collado Villalba arch?


----------



## verreme

RV said:


> That A-334 sounds like something like AP-41 or CM-40 for me... Is it built for guys picking olives?


Don't be so arrogant. This area is rich in marble (hence A-334 being often called _Autovía del mármol_) and that road is the only way out for the region. AADT is around 10,000 vehicles per day, and the motorway is being built duplicating the existing road, so it's a cheap project.



Suburbanist said:


> What are chances of a new Guadalajara- Collado Villalba arch?


None. It was planned to build a pentagonal outer ringroad of Madrid, with this being more or less the route of the northern part. However, it's highly unlikely for such a big project to be built. Only A-40 saw the light, and not all of it.


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> What are chances of a new Guadalajara- Collado Villalba arch?


Few ones... with the A-2 and R-2 you have enought capacity. Furthermore, local traffic is not so huge, thus all go around Madrid, not corner to corner.

I believe more in motorways 50-60 km away from Madrid (or more) to avoid crossing there and releasing traffic congestion


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> If it costs so little, then it should be built ASAP :cheers:'
> 
> Is land that cheap over there?





verreme said:


> It's very low on the priority list. There are other cheap, more necessary projects U/C. This news article (or should I say headline, since the full story is only available to subscribers) says the most advanced stretch (the one between A-31 and A-35, which is the one that carries the most traffic) is again in a standstill. This stretch includes a realignment of A-31.
> 
> As for the cost, land is very cheap in Spain. There's a lot of unproductive agricultural land -a result of poor planning dating back to the Middle Ages. Spain is a pioneer when it comes to reforestation, a _lot_ of unproductive land has been turned into forests since the 1940s.


Looks like Fomento thinks a bit like you and a bit unlike me 

Works for the stretch Jumilla-Yecla of A-33 began Wednesday (see press release). It's a pretty long (23,4 km) stretch for Spanish standards. Total cost is €69 million, which is indeed cheap.

Though current N-344 carries only 5,500 vehicles per day, traffic will grow when the entire A-33 opens -it will be the best road between Valencia and Murcia, bypassing Alicante metro area and bypassing congestion-prone A-7 between Alicante and Murcia.

As usual, there's no official completion date.


----------



## Suburbanist

verreme said:


> Works for the stretch Jumilla-Yecla of A-33 began Wednesday (see press release). It's a pretty long (23,4 km) stretch for Spanish standards. Total cost is €69 million, which is indeed cheap.
> 
> Though current N-344 carries only 5,500 vehicles per day, traffic will grow when the entire A-33 opens -*it will be the best road between Valencia and Murcia, bypassing Alicante metro area* and bypassing congestion-prone A-7 between Alicante and Murcia.
> .


This means AP-7 to Cartagena will see further traffic decline, right?

Will AP-7 need a bail-out?


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> This means AP-7 to Cartagena will see further traffic decline, right?
> 
> Will AP-7 need a bail-out?




They WILL NOT

Indeed, THEY HAD TO...


AP-7 in Cartagena joins all R-** and someone recently opened in the tolled motorway bail-out...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-2 Sils - Caldes de Malavella opens to traffic on 22 December. Also, construction starts on A-2 between Maçanet de la Selva and Sils.

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG_CASTELLANO/GABINETE_COMUNICACION/CONVOCATORIAS/141219-01c.htm


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> This means AP-7 to Cartagena will see further traffic decline, right?
> 
> Will AP-7 need a bail-out?


I think AP-7 was never the route of choice to go to Cartagena -A-7+A-30 is barely longer and way cheaper.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ According to Google Maps, the distance from Alicante to Cartagena is 127 km either using AP-7 or A-7 + A-30. It only takes five minutes less using AP-7 (1h 22m vs. 1h 27m).

Anyway I would say that the main purpose of AP-7 between Crevillente and Cartagena is to serve Torrevieja, San Pedro del Pinatar, San Javier and other touristic towns in between.


----------



## CNGL

A fact about AP-7 between Crevillent(e) and Cartagena is that most of it is toll-free despite its number. Only around Torrevieja is tolled.


----------



## alserrod

As it is known, some tolls are payed by administration. I've read that Aragonese government will keep its payment for 2015

This means (on condition you use the electronic payment)

AP-68:

Cars, Zaragoza-Alagon-Gallur, 100% free providing you make the same return journey withing 24h. Otherwise you pay full fare

Trucks, Zaragoza-Alagon-Gallur, 75% reduction for single journeys
Zaragoza (or Alagon or Gallur)-Tudela, 50% reduction for single journeys


AP-2 
Cars: Alfajarin-Pina-Bujaraloz-Fraga, 100% free for a return journey providing it is done withind 24h
Trucks: Alfajarin-Pina, 100% free for single journeys
Pina-Bujaraloz-Fraga, 75% free



Furthermore, AP-7 Altafulla-Martorell will have a 50% reduction for trucks (starting on January 1st)


----------



## Suburbanist

Has the N260 tunnel to Fyscal significantly changed traffic on local roads to the Monte Perdido park?


----------



## alserrod

bfff... I do not know. 

Ordesa valley has a capacity of 1800 people at the same time. It is an Unesco heritage recommendation and if overpassed, traffic is cut.

That share has only 7000ish inhabitants but a great deal of tourists in summer.

What it is known is that before that tunnel almost every one chose Barbastro to approach Ainsa and now you can choose (and as far as A-23 arrive to Sabiñanigo it will be easier to use N-260)

I remember being in a camping just in the end of the road one year ago the tunnel was opened but nothing could be seen from there.


----------



## Escargot

From Jaca, Sabiñánigo... nowadays everybody choose the new road instead of Cotefablo. From Huesca, the recommended route to Broto and Torla is also the new one. So I suppose Cotefablo is now empty.


----------



## verreme

CNGL said:


> A fact about AP-7 between Crevillent(e) and Cartagena is that most of it is toll-free despite its number. Only around Torrevieja is tolled.


AFAIK, you only pay the toll if you drive the full length of the road. Local traffic is always toll-free.


----------



## MichiH

*A7*



CNGL said:


> A-44 to El Puntalon opens in April


It's not yet in my list. When have the works commenced?


----------



## MichiH

verreme said:


> Works for the stretch Jumilla-Yecla of A-33 began Wednesday (see press release). It's a pretty long (23,4 km) stretch for Spanish standards. Total cost is €69 million, which is indeed cheap.


*A33:* Jumilla – Yecla 12 23.4km (December 2014 to ?) – ? – map



ChrisZwolle said:


> I want to make an attempt at Spain.
> * A-33: Jumilla - A-31: 13 km - 2016?


Where the hell is that section? I supposed it's here (upgrade of existing N344):

*A33:* Jumilla-North – Jumilla (A31) 12 13km (? to 2016) – ? – map

Edith: Maybe mistaken with this section :?:

*A33:* La Font de la Figuera (A35) – Caudete (A31) 12 12.5km (? to 2014) – ? – map


----------



## MichiH

^^ If I got it right, it's motorway-like. Google translated:



> The section will have a length of 14.3 kilometers, AV-100 motorway section with two carriageways of 7 meters each, outer shoulders of 2.50 meters and interiors of one meter, and median of 2 meters. Along the path we find a bridge (Viaduct Pecenescal), three links type diamond weights, two access and four underpasses. The project includes illumination, bike path, reinstatement of services, corrective measures and ecological impact signing and lighting among other services.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, it connects to the existing autovía that opened circa 2004-2005.

At 14.3 km, it seems to include all of FV-2 from near La Lajita to the existing autovía near some unfinished resorts.


----------



## alserrod

In all Fuerteventura there are only two highway streches (and maximum speed is 100). One of them, Puerto del Rosario - Airport (6 km) and the second one in the same FV-2 far away approaching Morro Jable (last town where ferries from Las Palmas call there. There is nothing with asphalt beyond it).

It is an island as big as Tenerife and only 100.000ish people live there. 
However they started motorway to replace FV-1
Last time I visited it, works were halted but now I seed that middle strech has been improved. I will ask about it.

Therefore... I am really surprised about the news because FV-1 is not finished at all!!! and they are planning about FV-2


Furthermore, road network is quite simple... FV-1 from the capital to the north (it really ends here https://www.google.es/maps/place/Co...4m2!3m1!1s0xc4634e3ac34728f:0x77e9504a83d8947)
FV-2 from the capital to the south (https://www.google.es/maps/place/Mo...m2!3m1!1s0xc477909030660b7:0x7de9142cf176d415)
FV-3, a little by-pass for the capital
FV-4 a little strech to go to a main town (by the way, the nearest point to Morocco, just 97 km away!!)

And... inside islands main roads have two OR THREE digits.
What the ****!!!!, they keep Spanish standards, thus three digits for local roads even if with FV-1 to FV-20 it will be enough even for quite local roads



I guess I'll be there in the following months (remember on me, never hot, never cold there...) so I'll try to get further information (and if possible, some pics)


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes, it connects to the existing autovía that opened circa 2004-2005.
> 
> At 14.3 km, it seems to include all of FV-2 from near La Lajita to the existing autovía near some unfinished resorts.


I guess it should be here, shouldn't it:

*FV2:* Matas Blancas – El Salmo 14.3km (? to Late 2015) – ? – map

Does the section begin at Matas Blancas east of Costa Calma or does it include the La Latjita bypass?

The source is no longer available. I found a news article which quotes the Minister that the section (or a short sub section?) will be opened within the next 3 or 4 month!?



> “Desde el Gobierno de Canarias hemos hecho un gran esfuerzo para dar un impulso al tramo comprendido entre *Matas Blancas y Costa Calma,* *que esperamos abrir en los próximos tres o cuatro meses*”, anunció Berriel, quien adelantó que el Gobierno pretende abrir también el tramo de la otra carretera en obras (Caldereta-Corralejo) hasta Lajares, y mejorar la vía hasta Corralejo, “aunque en esta obra ha sido más complicado porque no es elegible para los fondos Feder”, explicó.


----------



## el palmesano

ChrisZwolle said:


> The autovía between Costa Calma and Pecenescal will open to traffic 'end of the year'.
> 
> http://www.gobiernodecanarias.org/n...calma-pecenescal-entrara-servicio-finales-ano




^^

picture of when it was U/C


----------



## el palmesano

More from Canary Islands



> The road from La Aldea will be open in 2016
> This is the section that is currently running, only one tunnel tube over 8 kilometers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (google translator)
> 
> "We are in a position to announce that after the summer of 2016 will open the section that is running on the road to La Aldea, with some modifications." So Carlos Sanchez announced, the Minister of Public Works of the Cabildo de Gran Canaria, the agreement between the administrations to get things Highway La Aldea de San Nicolás.
> 
> The Island Council, the Canary Islands Government and the municipalities of La Aldea, Agaete and Artenara have held a meeting on Monday, which came out this commitment. For this, the Cabildo de Gran Canaria put 10 million euros in two years, through a similar agreement which has already signed with the regional government to continue the fourth phase of the ring.
> 
> The Canary Islands government, meanwhile, this year will not provide a single euro more than already planned in the Budget of the Autonomous Community, but is committed to allocate 12 million euros next year.
> 
> In total there are 30 million euros with which you can open the route, albeit with modifications that will be enabled only one tunnel tube, ie, a traffic lane. For operating the second 10 million euros are needed, which is claimed by the mayor of the municipality, José Miguel Rodríguez. Therefore, announces that on 28 January the full council will be at the gates of the Canarian Government Presidency for receipt by the president and to put to their claims.
> 
> Meanwhile, Rafael Ramos, spokesman Roque Forum Villager, ensures that the meeting "was a paripé" because all they have announced is the willingness of the council to provide 5 million this year and another 5 next.


http://cadenaser.com/emisora/2015/01/19/ser_las_palmas/1421675595_721673.html


----------



## el palmesano

^^

viaduct that will have this stretch of highway


----------



## Escargot

This photo puzzles me. :nuts: 










Is it the actual road? Is it normal to find it so full of rocks and stones?


----------



## el palmesano

^^

it seems, from a day that rocks felt down


----------



## verreme

Picture is probably from this day:

http://cadenaser.com/emisora/2015/01/18/ser_las_palmas/1421584516_564147.html


----------



## verreme

*New driving code*

The new Spanish driving code, which has already taken four years just to get through all procedures necessary for it to be passed, is having some (more) trouble as it has been rejected by "Consejo de Estado". This is an advisory authority that studies all new laws before they are passed by the Spanish parliament. They have written a long, juicy report about the new code. Some of the articles they don't consider right are:

- Speed limit for pedestrians (yes, seriously!). According to the new code, pedestrians would be limited to "walking" speed. _Consejo de Estado_ has said this would technically forbid running.
- Alcohol controls for pedestrians. They say this conflicts fundamental freedoms like privacy.
- Allowing bicycles on sidewalks as long as they respect "walking" speed.
- Speed limit reduction from 100 and 90 km/h in roads to 90, 70 and 50 (!) km/h, depending on the width of the road. They say people may perceive this as a revenue-generating measure.
- Speed limit of 30 km/h on all urban roads with no more than one lane per direction, as this would "slow down" life in the cities.
- Speed limit increase from 120 km/h to 130 km/h in some motorways equipped with variable speed limits (as of today, there's no variable-speed limit motorway in Spain eligible for this speed increase). Fomento says this would make people lose the perception of risk associated with speed.

As always, our press focuses in the speed limit increase to 130 km/h, something that will hardly happen even if this law is passed. I think that the decrease from 90 to 50 km/h on some roads (narrower than 6,5 meters and with no separation line) is way more important, as it would affect _a lot_ of roads and some travel times would be doubled. We'll see if the Government obeys Consejo de Estado and drops this law, because it's essentially a whole lot of nonsense. I'm surprised at Fomento being against the speed limit increase in some motorways, though. Former minister José Blanco openly supported it, and it was one of the promises of our current government.

I first heard of this new driving code in 2011, and it was to be passed in 2012. I wonder what they do in _Dirección General de Tráfico_ (Spanish authority of traffic). They basically produced a law that looks straight out of a brainstorming meeting, with no legal consistency whatsoever. I feel like I'm paying a bunch of useless morons that don't do nothing but get money from fines.

More information (in Spanish):

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2015/01/19/actualidad/1421661622_660400.html


----------



## RV

What is this Green tendence thing all about anyways!! Even in Spain :d


----------



## Escargot

Thank you for your explanations about rocks falling. As I have read, it's frequent on that road and usually due to climatic adversities, but not always. They say it was a windy night, but I think wind cannot do that. I'd rather blame the type of rock, as this is what happens in Monrepós... where rains worsen the situation but a rock can fall in any moment. 

Concerning speed measures, now I finally see who defends each position... and that's curious, because it's something I couldn't do yesterday after reading the news in Spanish. :lol: For me, some measures are idiotic (you know the joke I used to make about going out of the car with a metre to measure the road) and what I explained yesterday about my mother's pace. :lol: Well, thanks again for helping me understand.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The 130 km/h seems just bait to attract attention away from all the other speed limit reductions.


----------



## Escargot

The same as everything done in this blessed country. hno:


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> The 130 km/h seems just bait to attract attention away from all the other speed limit reductions.


Not only that... It would be set in a few streches where asphalt and motorway might allow it and.... there are electronic pannels to set signals.

Right now it can be set in the Barcelona surroundings because it is used in the opposite direction. This is, to decrease maximum speed if congestion, pollution or that stuff. The only change would be setting 130 as maximum and, considering live it would be decreased (you could only drive 130 there in a sunny, dry day on a Sunday morning or so indeed)

However I glanced proposals in my region and they were all of them few km streches only and... all of them but not one were tolled motorways.

This is... they would set 130 on tolled motorways mainly at the time they decrease the speed in other roads.

It is known that due the crisis, motorway traffic has decreased too much and it seemed to be an action to make every driver to take a toller motorway (if you compare 100 1x1 and 120 2x2 but quite expensive, you may consider... 90 1x1 and 130 2x2 is quite competitive!!!)

But now... however tolled motorway traffic has increased, thus no such problem (or no so big).


By the way... it doesn't matter if maximum speed is 130. With 131 you'll get fine either 120 or 130. It would change only the quantity of points to be decreased from a licence.


----------



## čarli1

verreme said:


> The new Spanish driving code


This law looks like monty phython show:nuts:


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> The 130 km/h seems just bait to attract attention away from all the other speed limit reductions.


That was my point. Fortunately _Consejo de Estado_ has not proven to be that dumb.



čarli;120829580 said:


> This law sounds like monty phython show:nuts:


Yes, the "walking pace" speed limit kinda reminds of the "Ministry of Silly Walks" sketch.


----------



## Bitxofo

čarli;120829580 said:


> This law looks like monty phython show:nuts:


We have got a stupid government full of moron thieves. The only thing they do perfectly is corruption and stealing all our money!
:bash::bash:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Two segments of A-66 (Benavente - Zamora) could open before the elections (which are scheduled for 20 December 2015). They say it will open mid-May.

http://www.laopiniondezamora.es/zam...ovia-benavente-abrirse-elecciones/822263.html


----------



## Innsertnamehere

Pedestrian alcohol restrictions? Seriously, if you are going to get arrested for walking down the street, how do they expect drunks to safely make it home at night?

Inner city speed reductions make sense, pedestrian safety is key and car drivers lose very minimal amounts of time for it.


----------



## I(L)WTC

Speed limit for pedestrians is so much Spanish :crazy: :rofl:


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> Two segments of A-66 (Benavente - Zamora) could open before the elections (which are scheduled for 20 December 2015). They say it will open mid-May.
> 
> http://www.laopiniondezamora.es/zam...ovia-benavente-abrirse-elecciones/822263.html


And they also say that the remaining section is to open in July this year, after the local elections scheduled for 24 May 2015. There is still no official date for the parliamentary elections (although they should be at latest on the date you mention in December).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The western part of the Badajoz Southern Bypass (Ronda Sur) could start construction in 2016. It will cost € 40.2 million and include a new bridge across the río Guadiana. The first phase would run from A-6 to EX-107.

http://www.gobex.es/comunicacion/noticia?idPub=15519


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The next phase of RM-1 will start in March. This project has been delayed for years, the autovía infamously ends in a field near Zeneta.

http://www.carm.es/web/pagina?IDCONTENIDO=78618&IDTIPO=10&RASTRO=c$m122,70
http://www.laopiniondemurcia.es/mur...o-bernabe-anuncia-marzo-iniciaran/626381.html


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> The western part of the Badajoz Southern Bypass (Ronda Sur) could start construction in 2016. It will cost € 40.2 million and include a new bridge across the río Guadiana. The first phase would run from *A-6* to EX-107.
> 
> http://www.gobex.es/comunicacion/noticia?idPub=15519


A-5 

A construction date is way too optimistic. It's election year, all politicians are promising stuff . I'm not sure about the standard of this project, either. Both pictures show an expressway-like road, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be a dual-carriageway road with roundabouts.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It would make sense to build an autovía. The current road from A-5 (  ) to EX-107 has 12 roundabouts.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> The next phase of RM-1 will start in March. This project has been delayed for years, the autovía infamously ends in a field near Zeneta.
> 
> http://www.carm.es/web/pagina?IDCONTENIDO=78618&IDTIPO=10&RASTRO=c$m122,70
> http://www.laopiniondemurcia.es/mur...o-bernabe-anuncia-marzo-iniciaran/626381.html


You haven't seen how A-22 abruptly ends near Siétamo. There are some talks in local forums to open that drop to politicians only . In the distant future, it will end at A-23.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Or B-40 in Olesa de Montserrat, where a six-lane bridge was built just before the place where the motorway abruptly ends... Fortunately it was announced yesterday that construction of the remaining section will resume in a few weeks.


----------



## alserrod

CNGL said:


> You haven't seen how A-22 abruptly ends near Siétamo. There are some talks in local forums to open that drop to politicians only . In the distant future, it will end at A-23.


I remember works on A-22 in 2005 and I guess in 2007 the Monzon bypass was opened.

But after halted and started again, several years ago all was finished....until Sietamo. Beyond there, nothing is already written (even the project)


----------



## Suburbanist

alserrod said:


> I remember works on A-22 in 2005 and I guess in 2007 the Monzon bypass was opened.
> 
> But after halted and started again, several years ago all was finished....until Sietamo. Beyond there, nothing is already written (even the project)


Why the delay? IT is a small gap that will link up a major route, and it doesn't seem to go through a national park or through a heavily built up area. Just some hills east of Huesca.


----------



## Suburbanist

I have a small off-topic question: is this a Google Maps bug or not?


----------



## Suburbanist

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Or B-40 in Olesa de Montserrat, where a six-lane bridge was built just before the place where the motorway abruptly ends... Fortunately it was announced yesterday that construction of the remaining section will resume in a few weeks.


Has the tunnel been excavated already or not yet? The parallel route (B-120) looks atrocious.


----------



## CNGL

alserrod said:


> I remember works on A-22 in 2005 and I guess in 2007 the Monzon bypass was opened.
> 
> But after halted and started again, several years ago all was finished....until Sietamo. Beyond there, nothing is already written (even the project)


The first section was opened in June 2008.


Suburbanist said:


> Why the delay? IT is a small gap that will link up a major route, and it doesn't seem to go through a national park or through a heavily built up area. Just some hills east of Huesca.


Again, politicians :bash:. And then budget cuts hno:.


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> I have a small off-topic question: is this a Google Maps bug or not?


No, it isn't

Those two corners belong to Navarra since middle age and border hasn't been changed at all.

The northern side has a 50ish people village (where one of the first Nobel Prize as Physician was born, by the way) and the southern one has been always inhabited.

Petilla (belonging to Navarra) depends too much on Sos del rey catolico services (who is part of Aragón) and Sos depends on Sangüesa (quite near but Navarra again)


As you can see, there is a short stretch of a road inside the Navarra side there. I kept it for a "guess the road thread" in the Spanish forum and my clue was... "it is in Navarra, not far from the border".

It was built and refurbished by Aragonese government at all. Navarra has no business there. They let Aragonese government to built anything and that was all (it is not the unique case in Spain as this one)

But if you go to the village of Petilla, it is well pointed where Aragon ends and you have the enclave

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.481...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sY-KBMFCPANe-ufl7gYFyfA!2e0


(the left stone is the bound indeed)


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Why the delay? IT is a small gap that will link up a major route, and it doesn't seem to go through a national park or through a heavily built up area. Just some hills east of Huesca.




There was a quarrel between Aragonese government and local town of Tierz to take as much away the motorway either from town (requested by Tierz) or from the castle in the area (requested by Aragonese department of heritage)

They went to court and judge decission gave reason to department of heritage... In that moment almost all stretches were on works but they had to start preparing the project there (writing it, prior to works).

And... crisis made all to be halted


----------



## MichiH

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Or B-40 in Olesa de Montserrat, where a six-lane bridge was built just before the place where the motorway abruptly ends... Fortunately it was announced yesterday that construction of the remaining section will resume in a few weeks.


Do you have a link? Is there any announced completion date? (I guess there's no info but I ask b/c that's me ).

*B40:* Olesa de Montserrat – Viladecavalls (C16) 6km (2007 to _suspended_) – project – map


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> Has the tunnel been excavated already or not yet? The parallel route (B-120) looks atrocious.


B-120 is a local road with very little traffic. B-40 will connect Martorell and Terrassa, which are two very important cities with a lot of industry around (Martorell is home to SEAT and Terrassa has a population of more than 200.000). To do this trip, most people choose C-243c, which is also a mountain pass, but it's wider and safer. You can also go through C-58 and then AP-7, which is longer and has a toll (for now, as a toll-free junction with A-2 is U/C), but it's faster when traffic is light.

As for the tunnel, no excavation has been done at all. You can see it on Google Street View. It's a long one, so it'll take some time. Works may even be put into idle after the elections -as usual in Spain, even when there was no recession.



MichiH said:


> Do you have a link? Is there any announced completion date? (I guess there's no info but I ask b/c that's me ).
> 
> *B40:* Olesa de Montserrat – Viladecavalls (C16) 6km (2007 to _suspended_) – project – map


No completion date has been announced. Yesterday several media published that construction will restart soon as an agreement has been reached between the central and regional government, but that's all the information we have for now.


----------



## CNGL

Suburbanist said:


> I have a small off-topic question: is this a Google Maps bug or not?


As alserrod pointed out, this is the Petilla de Aragón enclave which (despite the village's name) belongs to Navarre. I won't say this is a bug, since I know the story behind that.


----------



## Highway89

Hello everybody.

This is my first post here, although I've been following this forum for some months.

Let me post a video of the recently opened LO-20 between Logroño and Recajo. 

It is part of a bigger project consisting of a bridge over the river Ebro, to link the two parts of the A-12 (Pamplona-Logroño and Logroño-Burgos). The southern bypass of Logroño (LO-20) has been extended to the east to create a full motorway interchanghe with the A-12.

The link in the video description (can't post it directly here) shows everything clearly.







This is the first driving video I make, so any piece of advice is welcome.

I also wanted to thank Verreme, Chris/Roads of Europe and other users whom I've been following on Youtube for long and led me to wanting to make my own road videos - and to discovering this forum.


----------



## verreme

sponge_bob said:


> This is not true. The Spanish have built enormous underground rail networks in cities like Madrid Bilbao and Barcelona since the 1970s. Madrid ( population adjusted) has the worlds biggest underground railway network.
> 
> The stupid _Finnish_ greens want to demolish motorways while leaving no other access to Helsinki city centre, eg Underground railways.
> 
> The Spaniards built their alternative access network first, along with outer ring roads for long distance traffic, and then they demolished the old urban first generation motorways that were _no longer required_ as a primary access route to the city centres and which divided cities in half.
> 
> No comparison.


No motorways have been demolished in Spain. Only certain interchanges have been removed, like Plaça Cerdà junction in Barcelona (where the most important road remains free-flow), Atocha "scalextric" in Madrid (replaced by tunnels) or Sabino Arana interchange in Bilbao (this one has just been replaced by a new junction further West).

Urban motorways that have been bypassed, such as A-8 in Bilbao and San Sebastián, remain there because they still carry a lot of traffic. And these two are literally _inside_ the city. Even M-30 in Madrid is still there despite a tunneled bypass being built North of it. I can only think of Avinguda Meridiana in Barcelona as a fairly long (1 kilometer) motorway being downgraded.

Spain must be the most pro-road country in Europe. Only Catalonia had some issues with the Greens being in the regional Government and boycotting all road projects. But we kicked them out and they're definitely not coming back.


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## alserrod

Add another 2 km or so in Zaragoza but nothing special. A motorway arrived to city centre without exits. It has been enlarged (4x4) but it is an avenue instead of a motorway


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## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> Spain must be the most pro-road country in Europe.


I was reading up dozens and dozens of old articles of El País and ABC from the 1980s and 1990s (to get opening dates of first generation autovías) and it is notable how in Spain both PSOE and PP heavily favored highway construction, using them as election propaganda. In most (western) European countries, the social democrats / labor equivalents are not as much in favor of new motorways. 

Spain likely has the best road infrastructure in Europe and maybe the world. Spanish cities also tend to rank very low in congestion indexes. Madrid is by far the lowest ranked major metropolitan area in Europe in the TomTom Travel Index.


----------



## Sunfuns

Spain has spent a lot on all kinds of transport infrastructure. High speed rail is perhaps the best known project abroad, but I suspect a lot more has been spent on various highway projects. Urban rail has also done well. However almost all these transportation systems have now been finished or will be very soon (within 5 years). 

Perhaps it's time to invest more heavily into higher education and R&D to increase productivity and make sure that there are enough people able to afford all what has been built.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Sunfuns said:


> Spain has spent a lot on all kinds of transport infrastructure. High speed rail is perhaps the best known project abroad, but I suspect a lot more has been spent on various highway projects.


Fomento (the ministry of works) has been spending more on rail projects than highways since at least 2003. High-speed rail is expensive, especially with all the mountain ranges in Spain. Spanish autovías have a very low construction cost (generally in the € 6 million/km range, but can be as low as € 2 million/km). Even mountainous autovías are not very expensive compared to the Alps. 

I wonder which large city could be considered to have the worst road network in Spain. Perhaps Sevilla. It is well connected to other regions, but its urban motorway network is not as good (SE-30 being substandard at various places). The motorway network around Madrid is just mind-boggling.


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## Suburbanist

Why can Spain build freeways so cheap? I know there are some factors, such as:
- excessively dense cities = not much scattered housing interfering with rural roads
- lots of low-value land
- low wages for lower-skilled construction workers 

Yet, that cannot explain things alone. Other countries like Portugal and Greece also have these factors, yet construction in these areas is much more expensive


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> Why can Spain build freeways so cheap? I know there are some factors, such as:
> - excessively dense cities = not much scattered housing interfering with rural roads
> - lots of low-value land
> - low wages for lower-skilled construction workers
> 
> Yet, that cannot explain things alone. Other countries like Portugal and Greece also have these factors, yet construction in these areas is much more expensive


Spain has lots of valueless land. It's not a coincidence that it also is a pioneer country in reforestation programs. Between 1940 and 2011 forest area increased from 11 million ha to 18 million due to worthless land being reforested. Plus, population density is very low -92 people per square kilometer against 114 for Portugal. And it's way less mountainous than Greece. Motorways in urban areas or through mountains are expensive, like everywhere.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Fomento (the ministry of works) has been spending more on rail projects than highways since at least 2003. High-speed rail is expensive, especially with all the mountain ranges in Spain. Spanish autovías have a very low construction cost (generally in the € 6 million/km range, but can be as low as € 2 million/km). Even mountainous autovías are not very expensive compared to the Alps.
> 
> I wonder which large city could be considered to have the worst road network in Spain. Perhaps Sevilla. It is well connected to other regions, but its urban motorway network is not as good (SE-30 being substandard at various places). The motorway network around Madrid is just mind-boggling.


SE-40 will change this, though the city will not get a Northern bypass for a long time -SE-30 is just three quarters of a circle. A-8009, in the North of the city, is one of the very few Spanish motorways that are not connected to the rest of the network.


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## rpc08

Well, Portugal is only ours because we had some rough territory to help it happening, protecting it from the foreign incursions. It's really amazing when you cross some borders - Vilar Formoso and Quintanilha are the most striking cases, I think -, you come from Spain where all is flat and suddenly a couple km after entering Portugal the motorways start to go up and down the hills :lol: The Portuguese territory is, with the exception of Alentejo in the south, more mountainous than a considerable part of Spain (CyL, CLM, Extremadura, ...), and that makes it more expensive to build a motorway.

Talking about roads, I see that they have been refurbishing N-I between Burgos and Pancorbo. Do they have plans to make it a 1+1 expressway till Ameyugo, where AP-1 becomes free?


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Spain likely has the best road infrastructure in Europe and maybe the world. Spanish cities also tend to rank very low in congestion indexes. Madrid is by far the lowest ranked major metropolitan area in Europe in the TomTom Travel Index.


Madrid has a very decent public transport network, too. 13 metro lines + several light rail (metro ligero) lines and additionally the Cercanias, which, too, transport several hundred thousands of people daily. This network is good enough to offer a reasonable option for people with a low or medium income.
As a result of that public transport has a very high modal share in Madrid (42%), significantly higher than car (30%), which is pretty rare in cities west of Vienna.


----------



## Highway89

rpc08 said:


> Well, Portugal is only ours because we had some rough territory to help it happening, protecting it from the foreign incursions. It's really amazing when you cross some borders - Vilar Formoso and Quintanilha are the most striking cases, I think -, you come from Spain where all is flat and suddenly a couple km after entering Portugal the motorways start to go up and down the hills :lol: The Portuguese territory is, with the exception of Alentejo in the south, more mountainous than a considerable part of Spain (CyL, CLM, Extremadura, ...), and that makes it more expensive to build a motorway.
> 
> Talking about roads, I see that they have been refurbishing N-I between Burgos and Pancorbo. Do they have plans to make it a 1+1 expressway till Ameyugo, where AP-1 becomes free?


I've read/heard many times that Spain was the second most mountainous country in Europe after Switzerland, but I've never believed it. It may be true, however, that its average altitude (meters above sea level) is the second highest - but that seems wrong too. (I can't post the link, but check the "List of countries by average elevation" on Wikipedia). 

As you said, the northern & southern plateaus, plus the Ebro and Guadalquivir valleys are quite flat and make up about the at least two thirds of the continental part of the country. Italy (except the Pianura Padana), Portugal, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, Norway are in my opinion way more hilly.



I've uploaded another 2 videos of Spanish highways and roads.

First, the LO-20, southern bypass of Logroño, including the recently opened stretch:






The second one shows the old N-111 Logroño-Pamplona, which was downgraded to a local road (NA-1110) when the A-12 was opened. This particular stretch is called Mataburros (literally, _donkey killer_) and used to be quite dangerous because of the curves and the queues formed behind the slow-moving trucks and buses.






(It's weird that I can't post links, but I can embed Youtube videos).


----------



## Suburbanist

The Autovia Mudejar has plenty of grade sections on the supposed plateaus between Zaragoza and the coast.


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## alserrod

Well... here you are an example of a road demolishion:










Picture taken by newspaper Heraldo

Reason?

Ebro river is overpassed everywhere. That road is the Boquiñeni-Luceni local road
https://www.google.es/maps/place/50...m2!3m1!1s0xd5bd43380ff96cd:0xb5983fa035dad06f

and it was done because of this:











Picture is taken by Aragon TV and it looks forward south-west

Look at "natural way" of the river (surrounded by trees) and all filled with water.

Take a look to the bridge which can help you to locate the area. The village in the picture is Pradilla de Ebro, thus Boquiñeni would be just in the left of the image


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## Highway89

Suburbanist said:


> The Autovia Mudejar has plenty of grade sections on the supposed plateaus between Zaragoza and the coast.


I think the A-23 between Zaragoza and the coast crosses the eastern massifs of the Iberian mountain range.


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## alserrod

It doesn't cross too much at all. They look fot the easiest way. Therefore, not many bridges (and absolutely no tunnels)


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## verreme

rpc08 said:


> Talking about roads, I see that they have been refurbishing N-I between Burgos and Pancorbo. Do they have plans to make it a 1+1 expressway till Ameyugo, where AP-1 becomes free?


AP-1 will be toll-free when concession ends in 2018 (source).


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## CNGL

Suburbanist said:


> The Autovia Mudejar has plenty of grade sections on the supposed plateaus between Zaragoza and the coast.


I really like the section between Carinena and Calamocha. But then it becomes plain boring until Teruel (if it exists at all ) and then the landscape turns better, but I've only been a couple times past Teruel. I also like A-2 from Ariza to Zaragoza, even if it's 7 km shorter than posted (measured and confirmed with my car :crazy.


----------



## alserrod

So do I.

Paniza (Cariñena south indeed) - Calamocha is quite interesting

Teruel-Calamocha is quite boring... but beyond Teruel going to the south there are five interesting bridges.

Later, a "high level" motorway (arount 1000 m over sea level" and it is just entering the Valencian community where it takes a long way down to the sea.


About A-2 Zaragoza-La Almunia is boring but La Almunia - Calatayud has four little mountain passes. Quite small all of them, but quite interesting to drive there


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## Aokromes

verreme said:


> AP-1 will be toll-free when concession ends in 2018 (source).


Dream is cheap.


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## Highway89

verreme said:


> AP-1 will be toll-free when concession ends in 2018 (source).





Aokromes said:


> Dream is cheap.


In this case I think we can expect it becomes true. 

In a few months' time the N-I will be banned for trucks, which will have to take the AP-1 instead. The government will subsidize half of their toll fares, which is a lot of money. Therefore it may be cheaper for the administration to take control of the AP-1 once the concession expires, rather than keeping on paying half of the tolls to the managing company. 

Or maybe it isn't, and the concession is extended again. In this scenario, maybe the administration will ask for some improvements in return, as they did the previous time, when the stretch between Pancorbo and Armiñón became toll-free and was widened to 2x3.

But there are other factors to take into account. For instance, the "ghost motorways". Will they become part of a state-owned company? And don't forget that there are local and national elections in 2015.


----------



## CNGL

alserrod said:


> About A-2 Zaragoza-La Almunia is boring but La Almunia - Calatayud has four little mountain passes. Quite small all of them, but quite interesting to drive there


I also agree. A-2 through La Almunia, Calatorao and Epila municipalities is boring (fortunately it's only 15 km) but I disagree with the part that goes through La Muela and its windmills. Also, past Ateca there is also an interesting section with some viaducts, and the landscape changes dramatically when you hit Contamina (I mentioned earlier Ariza because it's larger), it feels you are already in the Castilian plateau but you haven't left Aragon yet!

BTW, I can't believe the greenies haven't forced Contamima to change its name. Contamina literally means 'it pollutes'!


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## CNGL

In other news, ARA-A1 motorway has been closed down due to part of it having been swept away by the ongoing Ebro river flood. This is the only bridge between the Z-40 near Zaragoza and Pina, and the latter town may have to be evacuated, so I'm afraid there are no safe crossings downstream until Caspe.


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## alserrod

Pina road is cut off due to river overflow. Next bridge is at Gelsa

Fifty km in the surrounding of Zaragoza without bridges


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## Suburbanist

Don't they have flood control reservoirs on the Ebro?


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Don't they have flood control reservoirs on the Ebro?


Yes it has many but look...











Village in the right is Gallur. Zaragoza is ahead in the picture.

Since 1961 we didn't have an overflow as this one



More pics in this thread
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=327289&page=17


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## Highway89

That's what happens when you add up meters of snow in the mountains followed by almost a week of continuous rain and an abnormal increase of temperature (~8ºC above average). hno:

Talking about road demolition, the only one I can think of is the N-111 in Soria, which was downgraded to a gravel road between Almazán and Lubia when the A-15 was opened. Check coordinates 41.642452,-2.505505 on Google Maps Street View.


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## verreme

I made another video that shows the current state of Glòries interchange in Barcelona. You can see that both Gran Via carriageways rise and split to leave room for the tunnel, and the median is not landscaped yet because works will start soon. Video also features C-31 motorway, which is Spain's first "real" motorway (controlled access and fully grade-separated). The entrance to Barcelona has some funky noise barriers. And there's also an elevated viaduct through a neighborhood of apartment blocks -all very 1960s.








Highway89 said:


> Talking about road demolition, the only one I can think of is the N-111 in Soria, which was downgraded to a gravel road between Almazán and Lubia when the A-15 was opened. Check coordinates 41.642452,-2.505505 on Google Maps Street View.


That pisses me off -no chance for bicycles, tractors and other vehicles that can't use the motorway. I wonder how can they be so short-sighted hno:


----------



## CNGL

Several roads are now in need of repairs due to the floods of the last days. Apart from the aforementioned, weird-numbered ARA-A1 motorway, the following were closed to traffic: A-1107, which got a short section demolished so the nearby town of Pina de Ebro wouldn't be flooded; A-126, which has since been reopened to traffic; and an unclassified road which used to be part of A-127. But still, the worst part is on ARA-A1, which operates on a shadow toll system and IIRC the company went bankrupt recently.


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## ChrisZwolle

The next segment of A-7 in Granada province will open on 27 March. It is the segment from A-44 to Puntalón, around Motril.

http://www.granadahoy.com/article/granada/1976403/rajoy/inaugurara/marzo/penultimo/tramo/la.html


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> The next segment of A-7 in Granada province will open on 27 March. It is the segment from A-44 to Puntalón, around Motril.
> 
> http://www.granadahoy.com/article/granada/1976403/rajoy/inaugurara/marzo/penultimo/tramo/la.html


After this, only one more to go for the entire Spanish Mediterranean coast to be spanned by motorways :banana:


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## ChrisZwolle

A-11 Variante de Aranda de Duero (13.7 km) will open 'late March'.

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...MUNICACION/NOTICIAS1/2015/MARZO/150306-01.htm


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## radko

*[E] Spain | road infrastructure • autopistas y autovías Reply to Thread*

Hi, very spectaculars pictures, that's a pity motorways isnt on maps. I'm interesting when were built ALL important highways. I'm finding but nothing only MOTORWAY without autovias <at least 1980>. Sent me some historical pics and i create on _page history building motorways spanish map_ and other 4lanes roads. Off course number of lanes too. radovankostiviar @ centrum.sk


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## verreme

A video from the Catalan _Departament de Territori i Sostenibilitat_ about the new C-32 extension in Lloret de Mar. The new road will be partly 2+1, with a twin-tube tunnel and a single-tube one. The project also includes a new, 1.6-kilometer long access road to relieve the existing accesses to Lloret.






It will be toll-free and financed through a private-public partnership with Abertis, the company that runs the rest of C-32.

I don't get what is that wide (4 m), "virtual" (painted) median for, though. Looks like there's enough room for a 2+2 road with a narrow physical median there, so why just 3 lanes? This road will be packed with traffic from day 1; Lloret de Mar has a population of 40,000 and in summer it can be double that.


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## Vignole

^^

Wow, stunning video


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## Fane40

verreme said:


> AP-1 will be toll-free when concession ends in 2018 (source).


Are you absolutely sure of that ?
Because the parallel N I is now in excellent condition between Miranda and Burgos except a few kilometers which are under repair.
And I doubt the spanish government makes this highway a free one.


----------



## Fane40

Highway89 said:


> In this case I think we can expect it becomes true.
> 
> In a few months' time the N-I will be banned for trucks, which will have to take the AP-1 instead. The government will subsidize half of their toll fares, which is a lot of money. Therefore it may be cheaper for the administration to take control of the AP-1 once the concession expires, rather than keeping on paying half of the tolls to the managing company.
> 
> Or maybe it isn't, and the concession is extended again. In this scenario, maybe the administration will ask for some improvements in return, as they did the previous time, when the stretch between Pancorbo and Armiñón became toll-free and was widened to 2x3.
> 
> But there are other factors to take into account. For instance, the "ghost motorways". Will they become part of a state-owned company? And don't forget that there are local and national elections in 2015.


Arminon - Ameyugo is a toll free stretch ,not to the next exit in Pancorbo.


----------



## Fane40

Highway89 said:


> In a few months' time the N-I will be banned for trucks, which will have to take the AP-1 instead.
> 
> Do you have information about that ?
> This road misses only one bypass in Monasterio de Rodilla.
> They opened the bypass of Sta Maria Rivarredonda a few months ago.
> It was certainly done to avoid to the trucks to cross this village.
> Today this road is not as dangerous as there was 17 years ago when I took it for the first time.


----------



## Highway89

I've uploaded a video showing the detour drivers have had to take since 2006, when the last stretch of the A-12 north of the Ebro was finished. Things will change when the bridge of the A-12 over the river Ebro is finished (expected opening: April 2015).

The main problem is that the detour goes through one of the main industrial estates in Logroño, so through-traffic shares the road with local commuter traffic. AADT on the LR-131 is almost 30k, and on the A-13 it's almost 36k. The new bridge will take away about 12k vehicles from those highways.








verreme said:


> I don't get what is that wide (4 m), "virtual" (painted) median for, though. Looks like there's enough room for a 2+2 road with a narrow physical median there, so why just 3 lanes? This road will be packed with traffic from day 1; Lloret de Mar has a population of 40,000 and in summer it can be double that.


Indeed, it's good news but it should be 2+2 from the beginning.




Fane40 said:


> Arminon - Ameyugo is a toll free stretch ,not to the next exit in Pancorbo.


You are right, the stretch in Desfiladero de Pancorbo with the tunnels isn't toll free.



Fane40 said:


> Do you have information about that ?
> This road misses only one bypass in Monasterio de Rodilla.
> They opened the bypass of Sta Maria Rivarredonda a few months ago.
> It was certainly done to avoid to the trucks to cross this village.
> Today this road is not as dangerous as there was 17 years ago when I took it for the first time.


Several national roads will be banned for trucks. Check this link, it's in Spanish but it includes a map: http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2015/01/28/actualidad/1422476573_581392.html

Basically, the Spanish government will ban for trucks those national roads where a parallel tolled motorway is available, with a reduction of 50% in toll prices.


----------



## verreme

Fane40 said:


> Are you absolutely sure of that ?
> Because the parallel N I is now in excellent condition between Miranda and Burgos except a few kilometers which are under repair.
> And I doubt the spanish government makes this highway a free one.


A political agreement between all parties has been reached, so the road will likely be toll-free when concession is. It's not the first case in Spain. AP-7 between Granollers and El Papiol, which is toll free since 1999, is another example.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-11 Variante de Aranda de Duero (13.7 km) will open 'late March'.
> 
> http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...MUNICACION/NOTICIAS1/2015/MARZO/150306-01.htm


Damn, why haven't I checked the press release prior to my update :bash:.



> Durante su intervención, la ministra ha destacado la relevancia que tiene para Castilla y León la Autovía A-11, un importante eje vertebrador de toda la cuenca del Duero. *Así, ha señalado que la continuación de esta infraestructura está en marcha y que actualmente se trabaja en la redacción de los proyectos.*


The minister announced that A11 construction will be continued soon?!? :?

According to _wikipedia_, the works on more A11 sections should have been started in the past but are suspended (La Mallona - Aranda de Duero; ~75km). Is that correct? When have the works been started? Is the minister talking about these sections to be resumed or about other sections to be started?



> Además, la titular de Fomento ha indicado que en *septiembre* de este año se pondrá en servicio el tramo *Quintadueñas-Villatoro-Villimar de la circunvalación de Burgos (BU-30)*; y que entre los meses de junio y julio se finalizará el tramo de autovía entre Benavente y Zamora de la A-66, con lo que se completará la autovía de la Ruta de la Plata


If I got it right:

*BU30:* Villalbilla de Burgos – Villimar ~10km (? to ? --> September 2015) – ? – map

What's about the other sections?



MichiH said:


> ChrisZwolle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fomento has restarted the works on BU-30, the northern ring road of Burgos. The works were 34% done, so they need another 2 years or so (Fomento press releases don't specify planned completion dates anymore).
> 
> http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...MUNICACION/NOTICIAS1/2014/ABRIL/140506-02.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a stretch of highway realignment of *9.1 km* that runs through the municipalities Burgos, San Mames, Villalbilla and Alfoz of Quintadueñas. It runs westward - This between autonomic A-231 and Quintanadueñas, where it joins the section of the *BU-30 Quintadueñas - Villatoro, also under construction*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If I got it right, the 9.1km BU-30 section begins at the A-231 and ends at the BU-622 near Quintadueñas (OSM). The next section b/n BU-622 and A-73 is also u/c (~3km; OSM), isn't it? What's about the next section b/n A73 and Villimar (~3km; OSM), is the 2nd carriageway u/c?
> 
> Is it planned to opened it entirely or each section? Does anyone have information when the works have been started (for the first time) or when the sections are planned to be opened?
Click to expand...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-11 around Aranda de Duero ends rather abruptly at a temporary exit at a local road near Castrillo de la Vega. It doesn't extend directly to N-122 (yet). The eastern end near Fresnillo de las Dueñas is also a temporary entrance. 

Especially the western end is problematic, according to Google Street View it's not more than a single lane country road.


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> Cuenca-Teruel is a missing link that should be plugged IMO.


Between Cuenca and Teruel there's basically a vast extension of nothing. Plus, a motorway-like connection would not help long-distance traffic, because there are other (better) routes. And the terrain is difficult; a motorway would be too expensive.



Highway89 said:


> I wonder why it hasn't been named AC-30. Anyway, good news. I think the current access to Coruña via AP-9/Avenida de Alfonso Molina is quite crowded.


AC-14 is an access motorway that is connected to the third ring road, which has another name (and has been paid by Galician regional government, not Fomento).

Traffic in Coruña is bad, the third ring road is a huge improvement that should have come much earlier. It's a shame that they won't build the full Vía Ártabra, an expressway that was planned to ring the highly scattered metro area of the city.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The opening picture of AC-14:









What is the actual number of the western branch of the ring road? I've read V-14 or VG-14, but Google Streetview shows it is signed as V-1.4 at the roundabout at the end. What's the prefix 'V' for, vecinal?

And there's this:


----------



## CNGL

VG-1.4 is the correct designation. They were originally named VRG (and CRG)-x.x, but due to confusing name (_Vía Rápida_, can mean 'fast way') the R was dropped. The first number is assigned to each province (1=Corunna; 2=Lugo; 3=Ourense, but there aren't any yet; 4=Pontevedra), and the second number is assigned sequentially.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*A-49*


A-49 by Zu Sanchez, on Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*M-30*


M30 by Zu Sanchez, on Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Madrid*


Madrid Pulse by Zu Sanchez, on Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*A-49*


LightTrail by Zu Sanchez, on Flickr


----------



## Boltzman

MichiH said:


> btw: What will happen to the "old" A44? Will it be closed or rededicated to Axxx?


Closed? :crazy2: The year before Hiperronda in Málaga was opened, the A-44 stretch in Granada was the fourth busiest road in Spain, just after two stretches in Madrid and the present-day MA-20. 

From year 2003 (when all tolled motorways were renamed from A-xx to AP-xx), the name GR-30 is reserved for the old stretch of A-44.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-8 Solares - Torrelavega in Cantabria will open to traffic in fall 2015.

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...MUNICACION/NOTICIAS1/2015/MARZO/150316-05.htm


----------



## Highway89

CNGL said:


> VG-1.4 is the correct designation. They were originally named VRG (and CRG)-x.x, but due to confusing name (_Vía Rápida_, can mean 'fast way') the R was dropped. The first number is assigned to each province (1=Corunna; 2=Lugo; 3=Ourense, but there aren't any yet; 4=Pontevedra), and the second number is assigned sequentially.


But why do they use a period in between the numbers? Beisdes, there are some regional motorways in Galicia, but they don't seem to follow the same pattern (e.g. AG-55). So, you can find AG-XX, VG-X.X and CG-X.X for regional roads. Thank God they dropped the R _to make it less confusing_.




ChrisZwolle said:


> And there's this:


Well... someone should be fired. Or given a prize.


----------



## MichiH

*A334:* Albox – Arboleas 8.7km (2007 to March 2015) – project – map

New deadline: May 2015. Source.



> Las obras de la variante de Albox concluirán en mayo
> The works of variant Albox will be completed in May


----------



## MichiH

*GI-632*



arctic_carlos said:


> javimix19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gipuzkoa's Council (a province of Basque Country) has announced that it is going to cancel construction works in GI-632 between Urretxu and Bergara.
> 
> This is the last stretch in Gipuzkoa's motorway system. The motorway was expected to open this year but finally it will be impossible.
> 
> Technicians of Council of Gipuzkoa have decided that it is necessary another project study, so works are going to be paralized this year entirely.
> 
> This is a sad notice to all inhabitants of this part of Gipuzkoa because the old road has a lot of traffic because this province is one of the most indutrialized region of Spain.
> 
> http://www.diariovasco.com/gipuzkoa...nde-contrato-construccion-20150219182001.html
> 
> https://www.google.es/maps/place/20570+Vergara,+Guip%C3%BAzcoa/@43.0844148,-2.2623995,11z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0xd502afe8f1074ed:0xa168bee0a3bc57ca
> 
> 
> 
> But I've just read that the cancellation only affects construction works between Antzuola and Bergara; that means that construction is ongoing between Urretxu and Antzuola and, according to the following link, this section will open at the end of March this year.
> 
> http://www.eitb.eus/es/noticias/soc...2--parada-construccion-tramo-antzuolabergara/
Click to expand...

According to a news article (15th March), GI632 works will be resumed in late 2015 and completed by 2017. There's no info about the Bergara – Antzuola section. Is it still likely to be opened in late March?


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ According to latest news, Antzuola - Bergara will be re-tendered after the summer and works will restart before the end of the year, foreseeing an opening in 2017.

The last information we have (from one month ago) is that section Urretxu - Antzuola will open before the end of this month.


----------



## verreme

I made a video of the new C-62 in Catalonia. It's quite a big (>30 km) road project that connects the towns of Vic and Berga and everything between them, mostly farmland. Most of it has opened along the current decade, and as of 2015 there's only one stretch to build.

It's a huge improvement for the region; the trip on the old road took more than double. C-62 is a high-standard road, with frequent climbing lanes and emergency ramps, though all of it is at-grade.


----------



## Suburbanist

Nice video ^^

Is there a plan to extend C-32 further Northeast?


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> Nice video ^^
> 
> Is there a plan to extend C-32 further Northeast?


You have an answer two pages earlier in this thread 

Lloret de Mar is the farthest it will go. There were plans to extend A-2 to the South and connect it to C-32 in Tordera, but it was deemed too expensive by Fomento and plans have been shelved. I hope they unearth them some day -that stretch of N-II is a pain.


----------



## Suburbanist

verreme said:


> You have an answer two pages earlier in this thread
> 
> Lloret de Mar is the farthest it will go. There were plans to extend A-2 to the South and connect it to C-32 in Tordera, but it was deemed too expensive by Fomento and plans have been shelved. I hope they unearth them some day -that stretch of N-II is a pain.


Whate about extending it through the coast all the way to St. Felix del Guixoles? GI-682 looks a bad road and must be overly congested in summer.


----------



## Rumours

Spain did tremedous work with roads and railways.


----------



## sponge_bob

Spain is still working away at their network and is building a lot more kms per year than France is relative to population and also relative to size of overall economy. 

Both road and high speed rail.


----------



## RV

But Spain should spend much more on city accesses than on mountain motorways for sheep!


----------



## arctic_carlos

Suburbanist said:


> Whate about extending it through the coast all the way to St. Felix del Guixoles? GI-682 looks a bad road and must be overly congested in summer.


It would be a pharaonic project with a high environmental cost for little or no benefit at all.

C-32 could be eventually extended, as a normal road (not motorway), from Lloret de Mar to Tossa de Mar, but beyond this town there is nothing until reaching Sant Feliu de Guíxols. 

C-35, C-65 and C-31 already provide motorway access from AP-7 (and therefore Barcelona) to Sant Feliu de Guíxols and the rest of the Costa Brava (until Palafrugell). 

There is no need to build a parallel and expensive motorway following the coast, it is a sparsely populated area and part of a natural reserve (Massís de les Cadiretes).


----------



## sponge_bob

RV said:


> But Spain should spend much more on city accesses than on mountain motorways for sheep!



Spain has a number of congested and 'urban' or near urban 1st generation A roads from the 1970s and 1980s that need upgrading in situ or rerouting in extremis. These will not be cheap jobs unlike 2x2 across the Meseta. 

Spain probably needs to build some mountain motorway as well. A lot of the seriously congested roads are in the Pyrenees in particular 

What Spain does not need is any more motorway in the southern half of the country...other than a Seville bypass perhaps. The network should be considered complete down there once the A7 is finally delivered this year, other than perhaps a few very short spurs from existing motorways.  

From now on Motorway projects should be economically driven rather than socially driven or 'bank and developer friends' driven as were the Radiales and the AP7 for example...a fine waste of money they were.


----------



## Suburbanist

sponge_bob said:


> *
> What Spain does not need is any more motorway in the southern half of the country.*..other than a Seville bypass perhaps. The network should be considered complete down there once the A7 is finally delivered this year, other than perhaps a few very short spurs from existing motorways.


Spain needs to close that gigantic gap, building a Toledo-Sevilla and a Ciudad Real - Don Benito highways.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is practically no traffic in that area. It's sparsely populated. Although I agree that Badajoz - Valencia/Alicante could be much faster with a new autovía from Mérida to Ciudad Real.


----------



## MichiH

sponge_bob said:


> What Spain does not need is any more motorway in the southern half of the country...other than a Seville bypass perhaps. The network should be considered complete down there once the A7 is finally delivered this year, other than perhaps a few very short spurs from existing motorways.
> ...a fine waste of money they were.


I think the u/c motorways* of the south should be completed too. There are a lot of sections which are announced to be opened in 2015. Stopping these projects would really be a hugh waste of money...

*Also sections which are not yet u/c!


----------



## sponge_bob

Suburbanist said:


> Spain needs to close that gigantic gap, building a Toledo-Sevilla and a Ciudad Real - Don Benito highways.





ChrisZwolle said:


> There is practically no traffic in that area. It's sparsely populated. Although I agree that Badajoz - Valencia/Alicante could be much faster with a new autovía from Mérida to Ciudad Real.


One solution would be to build such a road as a 1+1 with 2+2 bypasses of significant towns along the route ( 20k persons plus) where there might be a bit of traffic on occasion. EG Almaden west of Ciudad Real. However there is a road to the east coast via Toledo and avoiding Madrid. 

Building roads to nowhere and for no real traffic is no longer an acceptable pastime is Spain. Sorting out congestion in and around the economic engines like Valencia and Santander is a much higher _*national*_ priority. 

Spain is showing a similar pattern to that of Ireland in early 2013 as it pulls out of recession ( having gone into recession some time after Ireland) . It will not take much more economic growth to seriously congest some of the more economically important centres. Dealing with those issues in good time should be the key priority.


----------



## MichiH

sponge_bob said:


> One solution would be to build such a road as a 1+1 with 2+2 bypasses of significant towns along the route ( 20k persons plus) where there might be a bit of traffic on occasion. EG Almaden west of Ciudad Real.


Why should a town like Almaden need a 2+2 bypass? I guess AADT is much higher around Almaden than in the middle of nowhere but I guess most of it is local traffic which from/to the town. I think the bypass would be the section which is needing 2x2 the least.


----------



## sponge_bob

Overtaking opportunities.


----------



## Highway89

There is still a number of the so-called 1st generation Autovías. There was a plan to rebuild most of them, but most sections were never upgraded. This includes a total of about 1,500 km in the A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, A-5 and A-6. Besides, the A-62 between Burgos and Tordesillas and the A-92 between Sevilla and Granada are also the same kind of substandard Autovías. Almost all these routes carry reasonably high volumes of traffic, at least for Spanish standards.

Then you have the projects in urban areas. Barcelona, Granada, Murcia and Seville would greatly benefit from the new ring roads and access roads. Granada and Murcia, despite not being as big as Barcelona or Seville, have AADTs over 100k.

Those would be my two priorities at the moment. 

And if only the government would stop throwing money into the bottomless pit that is building new high speed railway lines to nowhere... They should invest instead on a proper modernization of the existing railway network, so that rail freight becomes a real alternative, thus reducing truck traffic on roads.

In addition, as mentioned earlier, the government is planning to ban truck traffic on national roads if there is a parallel tolled motorway, with half of the toll being paid by the government. That would make many planned Autovías redundant (e.g. A-4 Sevilla-Jerez, A-68 Zaragoza-Miranda).




sponge_bob said:


> Spain probably needs to build some mountain motorway as well. A lot of the seriously congested roads are in the Pyrenees in particular


Mmh... really? I don't know of any seriously congested road in the Pyrenees. Maybe the accesses to ski stations, but that's not enough to build a motorway there.



Suburbanist said:


> Spain needs to close that gigantic gap, building a Toledo-Sevilla and a Ciudad Real - Don Benito highways.


There isn't much traffic there. AADT on the N-430 between Ciudad Real and Don Benito is <2,000 most of the time. Same for the N-420 Toledo-Córdoba. The current national roads are OK. Besides, the motorway Toledo-Córdoba was rejected for environmental reasons.


----------



## verreme

sponge_bob said:


> Spain has a number of congested and 'urban' or near urban 1st generation A roads from the 1970s and 1980s that need upgrading in situ or rerouting in extremis. These will not be cheap jobs unlike 2x2 across the Meseta.
> 
> Spain probably needs to build some mountain motorway as well. *A lot of the seriously congested roads are in the Pyrenees in particular *
> 
> What Spain does not need is any more motorway in the southern half of the country...other than a Seville bypass perhaps. The network should be considered complete down there once the A7 is finally delivered this year, other than perhaps a few very short spurs from existing motorways.
> 
> From now on Motorway projects should be economically driven rather than socially driven or 'bank and developer friends' driven as were the Radiales and the AP7 for example...a fine waste of money they were.


No. There are no congestion problems in the Pyrenees. There are roads that need upgrades because some towns are rather isolated, but there are several projects underway. These are, from West to East:

- A-23/A-21 (U/C, no completion date but likely to be finished by 2020)
- A-14 (Lleida-Sopeira motorway, most of it still in planning stage)
- N-260 Gerri de la Sal bypass (U/C, but works are stopped and there's no completion date)
- Organyà and Coll de Nargó bypasses in C-14 (in planning)
- C-16 widening between Berga and Bagà, by adding a reversible third lane with a movable median (in planning)
- Les Preses and Olot bypass (likely to start construction in 2016)

Other projects that are still in discussion stage are:

- La Seu d'Urgell bypass
- N-260 between Olot and C-38 (still unclear if duplication is necessary)
- La Bonaigua pass tunnel
- Collada de Toses tunnel

As you can see, the people in the different Governments of Spain are doing their jobs.

As for first-generation _autovías_ that need upgrading, this topic has already been discussed more than once in this thread. Most of the "old" motorways have been overhauled, and the few capacity problems that remain are set to be fixed, slow but steady, in the coming years. I wrote a post about it some time ago, with links to news articles and all, but I'm too tired to search it. And then there's the story of that "ugly" gap between Ciudad Real and Don Benito -an area with an extremely low population density and a very high ecological value, that does already have very good roads (you seen N-430 on Google Street View?). 

As always, looking at a map doesn't tell the whole story about a country's road network -and looking for information a bit deeper than this thread's last post is necessary for getting the whole picture.


----------



## Sunfuns

From what I hear Spain already has a fantastic motorway network so is that really the area most worthy of further large scale investment (except finishing already started projects)? I have my doubts about that… 

I'll be in Andalusia in two months for 1 1/2 weeks traveling around with both train and a car and so will have a chance to check out myself how well it all works in practice :cheers:


----------



## alserrod

If you wanna take a tour and choose one route (or rail) for first trip and another for return, ask here


----------



## alserrod

and about Pyrenees I guess one of the biggest problem is Yesa-Jaca.
A-21 will take a long time and it is not a freeway at all.

But anyway A21 doesn't cross mountains. It just go beside them. I think it hasn't any tunnel in the project, indeed


----------



## Sunfuns

alserrod said:


> If you wanna take a tour and choose one route (or rail) for first trip and another for return, ask here


Thanks for an offer  We have already decided on our approximate route. It will be a day trip with a train from Sevilla to Cordoba and then with a car South to Cadiz and then along the coast to Sierra Nevada and Granada and back to Sevilla again. But if you are good in the area - any particularly beautiful mountain roads in the general area between Granada and the coast?


----------



## CNGL

sponge_bob said:


> Spain probably needs to build some mountain motorway as well. A lot of the seriously congested roads are in the Pyrenees in particular


What? N-330, for example, only gets congested after long weekends, otherwise is fine. Although they are converting it to A-23, so the jams should be gone upon completion.


sponge_bob said:


> From now on Motorway projects should be economically driven rather than socially driven or 'bank and developer friends' driven as were the Radiales and the AP7 for example...a fine waste of money they were.


AP-7 only between Cartagena and Vera . Another failure is AP-36, they should have been built it with no tolls at all (and thus as A-36, a number which at the time of its construction was taken by an A-7 section in Alicante province), that way it would have been a great alternate to A-3, especially in summer. But you know what happened, and now the companies managing this and other low traffic troll motorways are bankrupt.


----------



## Sunfuns

CNGL said:


> AP-7 only between Cartagena and Vera . Another failure is AP-36, they should have been built it with no tolls at all (and thus as A-36, a number which at the time of its construction was taken by an A-7 section in Alicante province), that way it would have been a great alternate to A-3, especially in summer. But you know what happened, and now the companies managing this and other low traffic *troll motorways* are bankrupt.


:lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

What Spain has as a really unique feature are parallel highways that follow close together such as R-4 and A-3 around Aruañjez or A-7/AP-7 in Tarragona.

There are very few such situations in Europe, at least. Sometimes you have highways that serve a similar alignment such as A14/SS16 in Italy (between Foggia and Bari) or A67/A5 in Germany (between Darmstadt and Heidelberg/Mannheim), but they are separated by some distance.

If these Spanish highways were treated as a system, we could talk of 4x2 or 4x3 highways


----------



## sponge_bob

Suburbanist said:


> If these Spanish highways were treated as a system, we could talk of 4x2 or 4x3 highways


Yes and by the same way the Radiales could have been built just as easily by widening the existing A or AP roads to 2x3 if that was required,

Anyway I just want to point out _again_ that very few 'new' proposed motorway projects in Spain are worth building....mainly because Spain has one of the best Motorway networks in the world already.

Spain should look at investing in other infrastructure types like high speed broadband which would reduce commuter traffic as the commuters could telework a few days a week, up north anyway.


----------



## Highway89

I'm not really sure if it would've been cheaper to widen the "A-" around Madrid or build the "R-" as it was done eventually.

In an urban area such as Madrid sometimes there can be no room for a proper widening. The R- roads, if toll-free, could've been used as "express" roads to get to/from the centre or through the urban area itself, leaving the old A- roads as connection between the suburbs and the centre.

For instance, if travelling from Zaragoza to Córdoba, you could take the R-2, then the M-50, and then the R-4, leaving the A-2 and the A-4 for commuter traffic.


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> What Spain has as a really unique feature are parallel highways that follow close together such as R-4 and A-3 around Aruañjez or A-7/AP-7 in Tarragona.
> 
> There are very few such situations in Europe, at least. Sometimes you have highways that serve a similar alignment such as A14/SS16 in Italy (between Foggia and Bari) or A67/A5 in Germany (between Darmstadt and Heidelberg/Mannheim), but they are separated by some distance.
> 
> If these Spanish highways were treated as a system, we could talk of 4x2 or 4x3 highways


AP-7/A-7 in Tarragona is a different case. A-7 is a ringroad for short-distance traffic, which has many exits and interchanges and is very close to downtown, whilst AP-7 handles long-distance one; it has fewer exits and runs further from the city. There are many of these multiplexes in Europe, such as A7/N7 in Valence.

I do think, however, that A-7 South of Tarragona (between Cambrils and L'Hospitalet de l'Infant) should have been an overhaul of AP-7 plus removing the toll on that section. There's not enough traffic to justify two parallel motorways.


----------



## MichiH

The A4 endpoint is not Braganza but the border. I know that there is N122 and that there's a good connection via A52 - A75 - A24. On the other hand, I read that the Spanish A11 was / is planned to be built up to the border. The future A11 would connect Portugal to Zaragoza. I think that would be a direct transit route to bypass Madrid unlike using AP68 - AP1/A12 - A231/A66 or A62/A67/A6 - A52 - A75. That's why I asked.


----------



## sponge_bob

Spains key needs once the A7 A8 and A66 are finished are generally urban. 

There is quite a lot of focus on Spain in this short EU report prepared 3 or 4 years ago. From 10 pages in or so. 

https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/sites/default/files/congestion_report_final.pdf

The maps and the tables say it all really . 

Many Northern Europeans are fully entitled to cry reading it.


----------



## Highway89

I've compared the 2013 AADT values for the border crossings between Spain and Portugal.

Bragança-Zamora IP4/N-122 (possible A4/A-11): *1,329*
Guarda-Salamanca A25/N-620 (future A-62): *5,617* (truck share: 41%)
Castelo Branco-Plasencia R346/EX-205 + N240/EX-108 (possible EX-A1): *377+462*
Portalegre-Cáceres N246/N-521 (possible A-58): *1,355*
Beja-Sevilla N260/N-433: *1,310*

In total, all border crossings between Spain and Portugal are used by *75,163* vehicles/day (37,137 in Galicia, 10,547 in Castilla y León, 16,019 in Extremadura and 11,460 in Andalusia).

In comparison, all border crossings between Spain and France are used by *133,004* vehicles/day (55,892 in the Basque Country, 20,044 in Navarra, 3,118 in Aragón and 53,950 in Catalonia). 

Also, AADT for the N-145 to Andorra: *14,725* vehicles/day, N-351 to Gibraltar: *24,681*. No data for Morocco.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Padrón bypass in Galicia opened to traffic.









http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...a-variante-padron/00031426933405086628550.htm


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The last segment of A-12 near Logroño will open to traffic on 26 March. Mr. Rajoy will inaugurate the new motorway.

http://www.diariodenavarra.es/notic..._para_inaugurarla_con_rajoy_199618_1006.html#


----------



## MichiH

*A62*



MichiH said:


> rpc08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the most important road links between Spain and Portugal, in Fuentes de Oñoro and Vilar Formoso, will finally be replaced by a motorway since the works in the final 5 km of A-62 on the Spanish side of the border are scheduled to start in December. The works should be completed in March 2018. Here in Portugal the motorway ends 1 km away from the border and some work has to be done too, but I still haven't heard anything about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rpc08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> there will be an interchange on the Spanish side right near the border (here), connecting directly to the TIR terminal so the new section on Spanish soil can be used anyway even if we take a little more to build our part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The contract was finally formalized today, see press release. The section has a length of 5.02km and costs 19.68 million €. There are two interchanges, two ecoducts, one underpass and one bridge over a little river.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When should the works begin, immediately (January) or later?
Click to expand...

I found a news article of 2nd January. It says, the A62 contract will be signed in Mid January 2015. The construction deadline will be April 2018.

Does anyone have any info wheather the works have been started in January (or February or March)?


----------



## MichiH

*RM-1*



ChrisZwolle said:


> The next phase of RM-1 will start in March. This project has been delayed for years, the autovía infamously ends in a field near Zeneta.
> 
> http://www.carm.es/web/pagina?IDCONTENIDO=78618&IDTIPO=10&RASTRO=c$m122,70
> http://www.laopiniondemurcia.es/mur...o-bernabe-anuncia-marzo-iniciaran/626381.html


The groundbreaking ceremony took place on 12th March 2015. Source. Construction time: 5 years. Section length: 7km (Zeneta - Avenida de Beniaján; map). The section contains a 140m viaduct.

Edit: The section seems almost to be completed on Google Satellite. I guess I've mistaken the info a little bit. Did the works began in 2010? When is the estimated completion date?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ That is a high-speed rail alignment.


----------



## verreme

We're having _a lot_ of opening ceremonies this year. There are local, regional and general elections so it's time for the existing governments to show off. Not that they have done that much, what's opening now is basically most of what began in the 2004-2008 period and stalled in 2008-2010; after years of hibernation, things are starting to move again.

Another road opening today was EL-20, Elche's Southern ringroad. Only 1 kilometer of this scheme is a motorway, and it had been U/C for 7 years. These are the only pictures I could find:




























A 2,4-kilometer long final stretch is in the public information stage, and is set to be tendered "soon" (source). The Minister also visited the works for the 3rd lane along 24 kilometers of A-3, which is expected to be finished in June.


----------



## Highway89

verreme said:


> We're having _a lot_ of opening ceremonies this year. There are local, regional and general elections so it's time for the existing governments to show off. Not that they have done that much, what's opening now is basically most of what began in the 2004-2008 period and stalled in 2008-2010; after years of hibernation, things are starting to move again.


Probably too many opening ceremonies in fact. They are hurrying too much, which may lead to a bad quality pavement, etc.

For instance, the last segment of the A-12 (the bridge over the Ebro) was suppossed to be opened in April, but according to the latest news they want to open it this Thursday.

Last time I drove there I could see there was still work to be done, mostly regarding asphalt, signs and crash barriers. From then, we've had rain every day most of the day. Tonight it's even been snowing. And from today to the 26th, forecasts say it's going to be raining again every day, with some snow again this Wednesday. Let's see how much time the asphalt lasts in a good condition.


----------



## alserrod

Not the whole A12 indeed. Just eastern side is to be finished.

Western side (Burgos - santo Domingo) will remain under project for a while.


----------



## CNGL

Highway89 said:


> I've compared the 2013 AADT values for the border crossings between Spain and Portugal.
> 
> Bragança-Zamora IP4/N-122 (possible A4/A-11): *1,329*
> Guarda-Salamanca A25/N-620 (future A-62): *5,617* (truck share: 41%)
> Castelo Branco-Plasencia R346/EX-205 + N240/EX-108 (possible EX-A1): *377+462*
> Portalegre-Cáceres N246/N-521 (possible A-58): *1,355*
> Beja-Sevilla N260/N-433: *1,310*
> 
> In total, all border crossings between Spain and Portugal are used by *75,163* vehicles/day (37,137 in Galicia, 10,547 in Castilla y León, 16,019 in Extremadura and 11,460 in Andalusia).
> 
> In comparison, all border crossings between Spain and France are used by *133,004* vehicles/day (55,892 in the Basque Country, 20,044 in Navarra, 3,118 in Aragón and 53,950 in Catalonia).
> 
> Also, AADT for the N-145 to Andorra: *14,725* vehicles/day, N-351 to Gibraltar: *24,681*. No data for Morocco.


According to this data no new motorway crossings into Portugal (aside from E80 for the sake of completeness) are needed, but my proposed Andorra motorway is. :troll:


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## alserrod

I do not agree. It would be a motorway that wouldn't link with another one in La Seu.
In addition it is known that Andorran border has quite rush days and other ones "peaceful". Therefore, you are investing for a little stretch (that it is almost impossible to continue inside Andorra and will take a long to continue inside Spain).


----------



## MichiH

alserrod said:


> Not the whole A12 indeed. Just eastern side is to be finished.
> Western side (Burgos - santo Domingo) will remain under project for a while.


What's u/c there? OSM. I think it has motorway standard, hasn't it?


----------



## Highway89

MichiH said:


> What's u/c there? OSM. I think it has motorway standard, hasn't it?


Nothing is u/c there. The only segment of the A-12 that is currently u/c is this one: *Spain A12:* El Espino (LO20) – Los Corrales 2.6km (? to *April 2015*) – project – map

The rest of the A-12 between Pamplona and Santo Domingo de la Calzada is finished with motorway standards (2x2).


----------



## Suburbanist

It would be interesting to have a Logroño-Soria-Cuenca freeway, including A15 sectors already built between Soría and A2.

I asked a year ago about progress on A15 near A2 btw, I was told completion of the sector was "slow". Is that still the case?


----------



## CNGL

^^ The first couple kilometers from A-2 won't open until late this year, but the rest of the missing link to Radona should be opening soon. The minister is visiting the works tomorrow just to get a photo. And I'll be driving A-15 between Almazan and Syria Soria next month as part of a trip to the forests in Northwestern Soria province. I'll be getting several sections on A/NA-125, NA-134, N-121C, SO-20, A-15 and CL/A-116. Before that, I'm getting the last missing section of A-220 I have next Sunday. After those, and the fact yesterday I changed my plans at last minute to get A-120 in, I'm already running out of roads to clinch in Zaragoza! (By the way, A-120 is incorrectly marked in Google Maps, as it is in yellow instead of orange, and that 'unnumbered' road linking A-2 at exit 310 with Z-40 at exit 27 is also part of A-120)


----------



## verreme

I made a video of road C-37 along 4.5-kilometer long Túnel de Bracons. This was a controversial project, as the Greens tried to boycott it when they entered Catalan regional government. Luckily, it got built with just minor changes. There are plans to extend this road to Olot, and connect it with A-26. If A-26 between Besalú and Figueres is built some day (it was ready to be tendered when budget cuts kicked in), that would create a new expressway-grade corridor for long-distance traffic between France and Zaragoza or Madrid :cheers:.








alserrod said:


> I do not agree. It would be a motorway that wouldn't link with another one in La Seu.
> In addition it is known that Andorran border has quite rush days and other ones "peaceful". Therefore, you are investing for a little stretch (that it is almost impossible to continue inside Andorra and will take a long to continue inside Spain).


AFAIK, La Seu d'Urgell bypass will be a motorway.

Anyway, a motorway to Andorra would be a bit pointless since CG-1 in Andorra will still be a bottleneck for many years to come, and traffic would just get stuck there. The only plans to upgrade this road are to extend Sant Julià de Lòria bypass, but this will not improve cross-border traffic because its way further North.


----------



## alserrod

MichiH said:


> What's u/c there? OSM. I think it has motorway standard, hasn't it?


Yeah, but beyond Santo Domingo all is halted. This year we had some projects in the nearbies of Burgos but nothing else

As an example

https://maps.google.es/maps?output=classic&dg=brw


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> It would be interesting to have a Logroño-Soria-Cuenca freeway, including A15 sectors already built between Soría and A2.
> 
> I asked a year ago about progress on A15 near A2 btw, I was told completion of the sector was "slow". Is that still the case?


Soria-A-2 motorway is to be almost finished these days. They will barely remain only two km. in the junction with A-2, expected to be opened next months.

We do not know nothing about A-15 Soria-Tudela (except Agreda bypass, on service since 2007)


----------



## MichiH

alserrod said:


> Yeah, but beyond Santo Domingo all is halted. This year we had some projects in the nearbies of Burgos but nothing else
> 
> As an example
> 
> https://maps.google.es/maps?output=classic&dg=brw


Hmm, your link does not work but I found halted construction west of Santo Domingo too: > click < . It was not yet on my damn list but I'll add it:

*A12:* Villamayor – north of Santo Domingo 16km (? to _suspended_) – ? – map

Do you know when the works began?

I think _wikipedia_ is outdated (stating "tender procedure"):



> *Santo Domingo de la Calzada/Grañón – Villamayor del Río: En redacción de proyecto (proyecto adjudicado, el 07/12/2010) 16km*
> Villamayor del Río – Villafranca Montes de Oca: Proyecto terminado (pendiente licitación de obras) 16.6km
> Villafranca Montes de Oca – Ibeas de Juarros: En redacción de proyecto (proyecto adjudicado, el 01/10/2011) 23.5km
> Ibeas de Juarros – Burgos (BU-30): En redacción de proyecto (proyecto adjudicado, el 07/12/2010) 7km


What's about the other sections, have works began there too? Unfortunately, Google Maps and Bing Maps display older aerials there .


----------



## Highway89

alserrod said:


> Yeah, but beyond Santo Domingo all is halted. This year we had some projects in the nearbies of Burgos but nothing else
> 
> As an example
> 
> https://maps.google.es/maps?output=classic&dg=brw


I wouldn't say it's "halted". It's not like the A-11, where the works were started and then stopped due to budget cuts.

The project of the A-12 from Santo Domingo to Burgos is currently being drawn up by engineers. It goes on at a (very) slow pace. 

As you said, works between Burgos and Ibeas de Juarros are expected to begin in late 2015 following a PPP method. That's the most necessary segment at the moment, as it carries commuter traffic from/to Burgos. Map: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=es&lat=42.340021&lon=-3.581629&z=14&m=o


----------



## Highway89

MichiH said:


> Hmm, your link does not work but I found halted construction west of Santo Domingo too: > click < . It was not yet on my damn list but I'll add it:
> 
> *A12:* Villamayor – north of Santo Domingo 16km (? to _suspended_) – ? – map
> 
> Do you know when the works began?
> 
> I think _wikipedia_ is outdated (stating "tender procedure"):
> 
> What's about the other sections, have works began there too? Unfortunately, Google Maps and Bing Maps display older aerials there .


As I said, that's not _halted _constuction. What you see there is just the old N-120.

Works between Villamayor and Grañón (west of Santo Domingo) were never started because the project isn't ready yet. So, Wikipedia is right.

There is a 2.5 km long stretch between Grañón and Santo Domingo in which the N-120 was "moved" to the south. 

The old N-120 was demolished, but the platform was prepared for the westbound carriageway of the future A-12. 

The current N-120 was built on a new platform, parallel to the old one. It will be the eastbound carriageway of the future A-12.

Aerial picture from 2009:









Construction took place at the same time that the A-12 around Santo Domingo was being built (2008-2012 IIRC).

It could be argued that it was strange not to build the whole A-12 all the way between Santo Domingo and Grañón, but that's it. It was projected as I said.


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## alserrod

Only that one (from Sto. Domingo to the end of La Rioja) and more or less at the same time that Najera-Sto.Domingo.

There is really nothing else but now we do know the project for the western stretch (besides Burgos) and project redaction could start this year.


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## Peines

More images of the EL-20 South Bypass by diarioinformacion.com:









New Motorway Stretch.









Dual Highway Stretch (with roundabouts hno: ).

*For now on, my holidays will have 6 roundabouts less…* :banana::banana:


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## verreme

The current terminus of the motorway will be the beginning of the new Elche-Santa Pola road (a dual-carriageway road with roundabouts). I searched some recent information about the status of this project, but I found none .


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## ChrisZwolle

A-15 Medinaceli - Radona will open on 30 March, except for the connection to A-2, which will open in the summer.

http://www.eladelantado.com/noticia...eli_y_radona_funcionara_a_finales_de_este_mes


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## verreme

A lot of openings in the end of March


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-15 Medinaceli - Radona will open on 30 March, except for the connection to A-2, which will open in the summer.
> 
> http://www.eladelantado.com/noticia...eli_y_radona_funcionara_a_finales_de_este_mes





> Por otra parte, se refirió al anuncio que realizó hace unos días la senadora y presidenta del Partido Popular de Soria, Marimar Angulo, sobre el inicio de las obras de los tramos *sorianos de la Autovía del Duero el próximo 1 de abril* y aseguró que “la tramitación administrativa está en un grado muy avanzado y el 1 de abril las obras podrán comenzar”.


I think it's about A11, but which section(s) will probably be resumed on 1st April 2015?



Highway89 said:


> However ,the 2015 ministry's budget foresees the following investments for the A-11:
> 
> La Mallona - Venta Nueva (6 km): 2.63 M€
> Venta Nueva - Santiuste (17 km): 5.53 M€
> Enlace Santiuste - Burgo de Osma (9.47 km): 3.52 M€
> Burgo de Osma - San Esteban de Gormaz (11.1 km): 3.46 M€
> San Esteban de Gormaz - Langa de Duero (11.4 km): 2.65 M€
> 
> I'm not really sure if that's enough to start the construction again.


----------



## rpc08

MichiH said:


> I found a news article of 2nd January. It says, the A62 contract will be signed in Mid January 2015. The construction deadline will be April 2018.
> 
> Does anyone have any info wheather the works have been started in January (or February or March)?


Haven't been in Spain since last year but according to the local press works have already started. In fact, the Secretary of State for the Transports and Infrastructures should have visited the construction site yesterday but the meeting was cancelled after the Germanwings plane crashed in the French Alps.

P.S.: In the comments box of that article there's someone saying that works haven't started and the visit would only serve political purposes. I don't know what to think now...:lol:


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-15 Medinaceli - Radona will open on 30 March, except for the connection to A-2, which will open in the summer.
> 
> http://www.eladelantado.com/noticia...eli_y_radona_funcionara_a_finales_de_este_mes


I guess last 2 km will be in autumn. Minister said it last year and, in addition, general polls are in november. Therefore... as near to them as possible


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## ChrisZwolle

The A-12 opening near Logroño has been postponed to 30 March.

http://www.larioja.com/la-rioja/201503/27/rajoy-inaugurara-lunes-conexion-20150327005613-v.html


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## ChrisZwolle

The missing link of A-7 near Motril opens to traffic tomorrow

http://www.granadahoy.com/article/p...er/unico/puerto/sin/conexion/por/autovia.html


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Postponed to 30 March as well

http://www.radiogranada.es/2015/03/...lunes-el-tramo-gorgoracha-puntalon-de-la-a-7/


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## MichiH

*GI-632*



MichiH said:


> According to a news article (15th March), GI632 works will be resumed in late 2015 and completed by 2017. There's no info about the Bergara – Antzuola section. Is it still likely to be opened in late March?


*GI632:* Antzuola – Zumarraga 2.6km (2010 to Late March 2015) – ? – map

The section has been opened on Wednesday 15:30 PM. Source.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-11 Variante de Aranda de Duero (13.7 km) will open 'late March'.
> 
> http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...MUNICACION/NOTICIAS1/2015/MARZO/150306-01.htm


Hmmm, this A11 section is still announced to be opened 'late March 2015'. Source of 24th March.


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## verreme

The Ministry of Fomento has approved the contract of the works for the connection between A-52 and AG-51 East of Vigo. AG-51 opened in 2014, but it's not connected to A-52 -drivers must take a huge detour to reach it. It ends a bit in the middle of nowhere, since the works of the huge industrial park it was meant to serve are stopped. It doesn't even show on Google Maps.

The new junction will be a proper trumpet interchange, and it will also connect the existing local roads (source).


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## Highway89

The last stretch of the A-12 between Pamplona and Logroño has been opened today:










The letter Ñ is the "symbol" for the city of Logroño























































Source: http://www.larioja.com/fotos/la-rioja/201503/30/rajoy-estrena-30103120816775-mm.html


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## ChrisZwolle

A-54 Guntín - A-6 (near Lugo) will open to traffic tomorrow: http://elprogreso.galiciae.com/noticia/371059/la-54-estrena-este-lunes-sus-primeros-tramos-lucenses this actually opened today at 3 p.m. source

A-11 around Aranda de Duero will also open to traffic tomorrow: http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...ma-manana-13-7-km-variante-aranda_967728.html


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## Highway89

According to this newspaper, the official opening ceremony for the A-54 has just been held today at 3 pm and the road will be opened for drivers this evening: http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...ago-cerca-autovia/00031427721753506634618.htm










A-15 Medinaceli-Radona has also been opened today: http://www.elnortedecastilla.es/soria/201503/30/tramo-medinaceli-radona-pone-20150330125119.html











Another opening which has taken place today: the southwest bypass of Talavera de la Reina (near Toledo) of the N-502: http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/241...ante-suroeste-talavera-reina-carretera-n-502/


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## Reivajar

It should be necessary to compare homogeneous data from different countries. I have no idea about the methodology they have used.

Maybe, their criteria applied to Southern France would show even a worse condition.


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## CNGL

It seems that in Aragon they only considered A-220 between Carinena and Fuendetodos, and A-228 except for the section South of Mora de Rubielos. I've already suffered the first one, it is in such a bad shape it would be better to go off-road thru the fields. Heck, if I have to choose between that and the Ventamillo gorge, I would directly choose the later.


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## Highway89

verreme said:


> ^^ I think they exaggerate a little bit -Spanish roads are in very good condition compared to, say, Southern France.


Probably constuction companies are part of the association, thus they want to press road authorities to invest more by exaggerating the bad quality of the roads. Anyway, it's true that Spanish road need better maintenance.


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## Cobucci

verreme said:


> ^^ I think they exaggerate a little bit -Spanish roads are in very good condition compared to, say, Southern France.


I saw some of your videos, and if Catalonian roads are somehow deficient, I don't know how to classify Brazilian ones. Perhaps a joke or something intended to be a road.

I think Spanish roads, in general, are among the best in Europe in terms of capacity and conservation. Spain's highway system is simply great.


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## Highway89

In my opinion, main roads in Spain are generally good.

However, regional or country roads differ greatly from region to region. A few examples:

Extremadura (best roads) vs. Aragón (second to last): They are about the same size and population. Extremadura is the poorest Spanish region, while Aragón is slightly above the average. A forumer from Aragón posted ten regional roads (just one level below national roads) from his region which are badly mantained to some degree: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=123195032&postcount=5159

Castilla y León (6th region with the best roads) vs. La Rioja (the region with the worst roads): Castilla y León is bigger than Portugal but has less than a quarter of its population. La Rioja is the smallest region in mainland Spain and is more than twice as densely populated, yet our roads are worse.


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## CNGL

^^ Some are even worse than a goat path icard:.

Castile and Leon is the largest subnational division in Europe :nuts:. I'll be entering this weekend, as I'll be doing this route: https://www.google.es/maps/dir/Hues...fd864aa74791!2m2!1d-0.4078058!2d42.131845!3e0. Several roads and motorways I've never seen before will be falling under my wheels.


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## Suburbanist

CNGL said:


> ^^ Some are even worse than a goat path icard:.
> 
> Castile and Leon is the largest subnational division in Europe :nuts:. I'll be entering this weekend, as I'll be doing this route: https://www.google.es/maps/dir/Hues...fd864aa74791!2m2!1d-0.4078058!2d42.131845!3e0. Several roads and motorways I've never seen before will be falling under my wheels.


Are you not driving the short A11 stretch west of Soria? I'd be nice to have a full freeway from there to Aranda d'Oro, as it was discussed some pages a go I think.


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## verreme

^^ Aranda de Duero 

Driving El Burgo de Osma bypass would be a huge detour for that route.



Cobucci said:


> I saw some of your videos, and if Catalonian roads are somehow deficient, I don't know how to classify Brazilian ones. Perhaps a joke or something intended to be a road.
> 
> I think Spanish roads, in general, are among the best in Europe in terms of capacity and conservation. Spain's highway system is simply great.





Highway89 said:


> In my opinion, main roads in Spain are generally good.
> 
> However, regional or country roads differ greatly from region to region. A few examples:
> 
> Extremadura (best roads) vs. Aragón (second to last): They are about the same size and population. Extremadura is the poorest Spanish region, while Aragón is slightly above the average. A forumer from Aragón posted ten regional roads (just one level below national roads) from his region which are badly mantained to some degree: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=123195032&postcount=5159
> 
> Castilla y León (6th region with the best roads) vs. La Rioja (the region with the worst roads): Castilla y León is bigger than Portugal but has less than a quarter of its population. La Rioja is the smallest region in mainland Spain and is more than twice as densely populated, yet our roads are worse.


The ones who did that study (Asociación Española de la Carretera) also recommended tolling all motorways some time ago:

http://www.motorpasion.com/industria/aec-abre-el-debate-del-peaje-universal-en-las-carreteras

In their website, you can see that the main Spanish construction companies (FCC, Ferrovial, Acciona, OHL, Dragados, etc) are the ones behind them:

http://www.aecarretera.com/quienes-somos/estructura/socios-patrocinadores

So I think the debate is settled -they're just lobbying to get more money from maintenance contracts. About the condition of Spanish roads, it's generally good. In the 1980s and 90s, roads were falling apart, with patches everywhere, grass growing between lanes and damage from accidents not being repaired. In the early 2000s, some first-generation _autovías_ (which at that time were only 10 years old) looked -and felt- like they had been bombed. Things have slowly got better despite recession (the renewal of these early motorways, funded by shadow tolls, aided a bit), and now driving on Spanish roads spares no surprises for a Western European foreigner.


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## CNGL

verreme said:


> ^^ Aranda de Duero
> 
> Driving El Burgo de Osma bypass would be a huge detour for that route.


That, and the fact I'm already detouring to Ariza makes impossible to me to drive the lone A-11 section. I would have gone directly to Calatayud on N-234 otherwise (another road I haven't been to yet). OTOH, I'll be driving the Agreda bypass, a lone A-15 section with N-122's kmposts. Its existence explains the gap in the A-15 planning map from Los Rabanos (South of Soria) to AP-68/AP-15 near Tudela.


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## alserrod

It was me who chose ten main regional roads in poor conditions.
In the other hand I have to say that sometimes it is a stretch that goes to the end of the side and with barely traffic (I wonder why they chose first class for them) and in addition, I can fin several examples where a stretch is horrible but joined to another perfect one (it is crazy, you cannot drive over 50 and later, no problems to remain 100).

It is a poorly used network due to large extension and few population. When they normally have a refurbishement, it will take longer to repair again... but few works can be done every year.

If we compare traffic Vs situation of roads, it will not be so bad, but looking to pictures, it is really horrible.


----------



## verreme

I made a video of N-II through Monegros desert. This road is definitely not in very good condition . Truck share is 67% of a bare 8.000 vehicles a day, so this road feels very busy. Most truckers bypass parallel AP-2 toll motorway with N-II; the road is mostly flat and straight and crosses only one town, so they can also drive their 90 km/h top speed. Even with reductions in toll rates up to 75%, truckers still prefer the old road. This is going to be addressed soon, as the Government is passing a law that will ban trucks from roads with a parallel toll motorway in exchange for additional discounts on tolls (50%).






Monegros desert is quite unique in Western Europe. Some "Spaghetti Western" movies were filmed there. A big part of the area around N-II has been irrigated, but there are still vast extensions of dry, sparsely-populated steppes.

I also filmed A-2 in Lleida province and the short stretch around Fraga, which is also poorly maintained -it's very bumpy, despite having opened only 13 years ago. Fraga used to be in the headlines quite often due to trucks losing their brakes entering the town -which is in a deep valley- and crashing to some car or building at full speed. With the bypass this has been partly solved, because there are still trucks driving to downtown Fraga, and there are incidents every now and then.


----------



## Suburbanist

were there plans to extend A2 to Zaragoza, on the other side of the Ebro?


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> were there plans to extend A2 to Zaragoza, on the other side of the Ebro?


There's already AP-2 between Zaragoza and Fraga, so it doesn't make much sense now that trucks will be banned on N-II. There were some plans -there was even a DIA (_Declaración de Impacto Ambiental_) that was passed. But I don't think they are pursuing this anymore. Even local authorities seem to have lost interest in that project, because diverting all truck traffic to AP-2 makes much more sense.


----------



## Suburbanist

verreme said:


> There's already AP-2 between Zaragoza and Fraga, so it doesn't make much sense now that trucks will be banned on N-II. There were some plans -there was even a DIA (_Declaración de Impacto Ambiental_) that was passed. But I don't think they are pursuing this anymore. Even local authorities seem to have lost interest in that project, because diverting all truck traffic to AP-2 makes much more sense.


But wasn't the contruction of A2, A7 part of a plan to starve off toll concessionaires by building parallel "freedom from tolls" roads?


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## CNGL

At 2:18 in the first video, N-II just East of Bujaraloz there is a sign which is common in other countries (I saw loads of them in my recent trip to France) but ultra rare in Spain: https://www.google.es/maps/@41.498094,-0.142891,3a,29.4y,298.39h,86.78t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sVBfBqriw7vTQil5Q6yiImw!2e0


----------



## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> But wasn't the contruction of A2, A7 part of a plan to starve off toll concessionaires by building parallel "freedom from tolls" roads?


I don't know what they intended with that. But bear in mind that toll concessionaires are participated by Spain's leading construction companies and banks, which are the most powerful lobby in the country -if they ever lose in the game, they will undoubtedly be compensated.


----------



## Suburbanist

Is Zaragoza actually enforcing that "30 limit maximum speed on right lane" thing?


----------



## Suburbanist

When have they built A2 between Cetina and Azteca? On Google Street View, it doesn't look like a narrow ROW (like the Despeñaderos area on A4 were), and some overpasses look modern. So why haven't they opted for more tunnels and less curves?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

According to my research with historic newspaper articles, A-2 Medinaceli - Calatayud opened to traffic in December 1990. But it is a long stretch (75 km) and may have opened in more fragments. Newspaper articles are not always accurate.


----------



## CNGL

Suburbanist said:


> When have they built A2 between Cetina and Azteca? On Google Street View, it doesn't look like a narrow ROW (like the Despeñaderos area on A4 were), and some overpasses look modern. So why haven't they opted for more tunnels and less curves?


Azteca? I didn't know we had a Mexican colony here :lol: (It's Ateca ). When I was a kid I liked seeing that area in a map of Aragon and finding there's Calatayud, then Ateca, then Ariza. Coincidentally the last one has spectacularly vaulted to the top of my mind lately, I went there back in December and I'm detouring this weekend just to get back there (and clinching some new roads). This means I'll be driving the section you said, and the following one to La Almunia which I also like.


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> were there plans to extend A2 to Zaragoza, on the other side of the Ebro?


No, there aren't

IMO the easiest plan would be to untoll the AP-2 till booths linking AP-2 and N-II

It wouldn't be quite difficult

https://www.google.es/maps/place/50...!4m2!3m1!1s0xd58d97d59296ab3:0xdf5decbaf351dd

Second exit would be cancelled (saving money because not maintaining an boothed exit) and all free traffic could go easily till the first booth but taking a link to the N-II

That would cost... more to the toll motorway rather than civil work.

Should they think to built a new lane (2x2 in the N-II developping an A-2) they will find a real problem here

In Villafranca de Ebro
https://www.google.es/maps/place/50...!4m2!3m1!1s0xd58d97d59296ab3:0xdf5decbaf351dd

They could

1- Built a second lane but with a 100 km/h limit
2- Built a 2x2 southern current motorway (it will increase several km Zaragoza-Barcelona and more expensive)
3- Make free current tolled motorway


More... after Pina de Ebro I do not find reasons to build a 2x2 but making free the tolled motorway. There is no such traffic for two paralel motorways. Maybe on holidays but several days per year only.

If they untoll the motorway they could build an additional exit here
https://www.google.es/maps/place/22...2!3m1!1s0x12a75942a370cd97:0x95e2e930db4e7369

This stretch is (to my best knowledge) the longest one in Europe between two exits (if you drive there, do not forget to take the correct exit or you will make 92 additional km!!!!)


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Is Zaragoza actually enforcing that "30 limit maximum speed on right lane" thing?



Not enforcing... they already enforced and they "apply" the law. This is, 30 km/h limit is on right lane in the whole city and signaled from time to time. They have fined some drivers because this reason.


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## CNGL

If you want more of those 'road numbers longer than those from social security', right now I'm standing at the start of SO-P-6001 at N-234 in San Leonardo de Yague. I've discovered those roads are fully signed, complete with kmposts.


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## verreme

alserrod said:


> No, there aren't


As I said before, yes there were -there's even a _Declaración de Impacto Ambiental_ on this project, which is the last step before the design of the motorway (link).

This document concludes that it would be easier to free a part of AP-2, though it's still positive about building a new, long stretch of A-2.


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## MichiH

The 14.5km b/n La Mancha (Santiago del Teide) and Vera de Erques (Guia de Isora) section of TF-1 was opened on Wednesday (map). The section b/n Erques and Adeje should be opened in summer 2015 (map). The final ring road section b/n Santiago del Teide and Erjos has a 6km tunnel which costs 400 million € (map). It's not yet u/c caused by lack of funding. Source (2).

The 2nd article (in German) contains a pic. It looks motorway/expressway-like but not all the way on OSM.... :nuts:

Should I add the two sections to my list? :?


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## ChrisZwolle

Only the tunnel has four lanes. The rest is a vía rápida-like express road.


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## Highway89

I found this video, it's a 2+1 expressway:


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## verreme

Nice! I thought there was no space reservation for a second carriageway. Soon Tenerife will be the first island in the world to have a full expressway-standard ringroad


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## ChrisZwolle

Hainan has a ring expressway


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## adevahi

Highway89 said:


> I found this video, it's a 2+1 expressway:


Is not obligatory in Spain to put a signal with the length in meters at the beggining of each tunnel? I always see it and I don't know why it doesn't appear in this tunnel (1:30)


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> Hainan has a ring expressway


It had to be China . Thanks for the fact :cheers:


----------



## PEDROTF

adevahi said:


> Is not obligatory in Spain to put a signal with the length in meters at the beggining of each tunnel? I always see it and I don't know why it doesn't appear in this tunnel (1:30)


Hello from Tenerife.The work still has things to do.It have opened but there are stil traffic signals to install and finsih the entire hihgway.

Regards and sorry if my english is not good.


Now,i´ll show you another videos of roads and highways from Tenerife.

I hope you enjoy it.

This stretch of highway is still pending abrir.Para is expected to open in July and is the continuation of the road they saw in the other vineyard .








This stretch of highway is in the north of the island and is part of the closure of the insular ring road









And this is part of the TF -5 motorway linking the two princpales cities of the metropolitan area of Tenerife


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## adevahi

Thank you, so do you know how long it is the tunnel?



> Regards and sorry if my english is not good.


No te preocupes, pisha, si yo nací en Triana, pero aquí se mete también mucho guiri


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## ChrisZwolle

According to Google Earth the tunnel is approximately 1,100 meters long. 

Google Maps: https://goo.gl/maps/UeeHP


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## alsama

MichiH said:


> *GI632:* Antzuola – Zumarraga 2.6km (2010 to Late March 2015) – ? – map
> 
> The section has been opened on Wednesday 15:30 PM. Source.


----------



## Mokamal

*not much better...*



Coneslammer said:


> I just happened to stumple across it while looking at google earth, and the network they have there is pretty breath-taking, especially by European standards. A few ring roads, tollways, C+D setups, and more freeway to freeway interchanges than I can count, compared to our 2 here in Sydney  Not to mention plenty of lanes on each.
> 
> Anyway, does someone have some context or explaination of what's driving this huge boom in freeways? Wikipedia doesn't have a single thing to say about Madrid's roads, believe it or not, and I can't find much else on the net, so any comments from locals or people in the know, you're welcome.
> 
> 
> I mean, jesus christ, just south-east of the city they have 9 full on interchanges covering an area that appears to be practically empty, if i'm missing something I would love to know.
> 
> Edit: Oh, nice forums here by the way, glad I found 'em.



Don't be mad, it is not all Europe. Here in Spain we have 1 lane highways all over the place. Actually 2 or 3, but always under construction :bash:


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## KRX_69

*A49*

01.









02.









03.









04.









05.









06.









07.









08.









09.









10.









11.









12.









13.









14.









:cheers:


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## Highway89

Thanks for the pictures! Is that the new ringroad of Sevilla u/c?



Mokamal said:


> Don't be mad, it is not all Europe. Here in Spain we have 1 lane highways all over the place. Actually 2 or 3, but always under construction :bash:


I don't quite get what you mean. Could you please elaborate?


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## RV

Highway89 said:


> Thanks for the pictures! Is that the new ringroad of Sevilla u/c?
> 
> 
> I don't quite get what you mean. Could you please elaborate?


That is an upgrade of the Sevilla-Huelva-road adding it a third lane near Sevilla. This is what Spain should do. Mountain roads between two 50,000-habitant-locations with no urban sprawl get billions, when city accesses lack of a few million funding in all the major cities to build an extra lane.


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## arctic_carlos

In the pictures you can also see the future interchange of A-49 (Sevilla - Huelva - Portuguese border) with u/c SE-40 (Sevilla outer ring road).


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## Highway89

RV said:


> That is an upgrade of the Sevilla-Huelva-road adding it a third lane near Sevilla. This is what Spain should do. *Mountain roads between two 50,000-habitant-locations with no urban sprawl get billions, *when city accesses lack of a few million funding in all the major cities to build an extra lane.


Which road are you referring to? :? The A-15 to Soria?


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## arctic_carlos

^^ When fully completed, A-11 and A-15 in Soria province will get a considerable amount of traffic that now uses other routes. For instance all traffic Madrid - Pamplona or Zaragoza - Valladolid.

The same happens with A-21 - A-23 - A-22, that will be the shortest link between Barcelona and Pamplona, Bilbao and San Sebastián.

We're talking about long term projects that shouldn't be judged on the basis of short sections currently in service carrying few traffic, in my opinion.


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## RV

Highway89 said:


> Which road are you referring to? :? The A-15 to Soria?


Well, for example... Of course a by-pass or a motorway in the near radius of such cities is OK, but then in the middle of nothing it doesn't just make sense. Somebody brought out here interchanges in Spain being built for villages of fewer than 50 people or completely dead...

Saving a few Kms from Barcelona to San Sebastian is no justify for a new motorway parallel to the already existing Autovia del Ebro, except building some new links maybe. Other countries in Europe solve congesting in such routes (though Autovia del Ebro nor AP-2 are not congested) building a third lane. Also, parallel motorways because one is tolled in the middle of fields is crazy. Of course I understand the concept on the coast and urban sprawl areas, but somewhere else it's crazy (let's take for example the famou A-2/AP-2-corridor).


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## pai nosso

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ When fully completed, A-11 and A-15 in Soria province will get a considerable amount of traffic that now uses other routes.


Dream mode ON:

...for instances, for Porto-Barcelona travels!!

Dream mode OFF.


And probably, a more direct link from northen Portugal to France.


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## alserrod

RV said:


> Well, for example... Of course a by-pass or a motorway in the near radius of such cities is OK, but then in the middle of nothing it doesn't just make sense. Somebody brought out here interchanges in Spain being built for villages of fewer than 50 people or completely dead...
> 
> Saving a few Kms from Barcelona to San Sebastian is no justify for a new motorway parallel to the already existing Autovia del Ebro, except building some new links maybe. Other countries in Europe solve congesting in such routes (though Autovia del Ebro nor AP-2 are not congested) building a third lane. Also, parallel motorways because one is tolled in the middle of fields is crazy. Of course I understand the concept on the coast and urban sprawl areas, but somewhere else it's crazy (let's take for example the famou A-2/AP-2-corridor).




Figueruelas-Mallen in A-68 is as expensive (or cheaper) than M-12 for Madrid airport due to only a platform in 30 km and no special infrastuctures. 
A-68 in Navarra is done.

Furthermore... I would link to AP-68 until the nearbies of Logroño. There is not enough traffic (in Tudela 50-50 direction Logroño or Pamplona)


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## alserrod

pai nosso said:


> Dream mode ON:
> 
> ...for instances, for Porto-Barcelona travels!!
> 
> Dream mode OFF.
> 
> 
> And probably, a more direct link from northen Portugal to France.




You will see it... but it will take longer.

For instance you can use the motorway bypass in Aranda de Duero as you know. 

It will take longer to enlarge the motorway but step by step it approach to a better link Porto-Barcelona.


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## verreme

RV said:


> Well, for example... Of course a by-pass or a motorway in the near radius of such cities is OK, but then in the middle of nothing it doesn't just make sense. Somebody brought out here interchanges in Spain being built for villages of fewer than 50 people or completely dead...
> 
> Saving a few Kms from Barcelona to San Sebastian is no justify for a new motorway parallel to the already existing Autovia del Ebro, except building some new links maybe. Other countries in Europe solve congesting in such routes (though Autovia del Ebro nor AP-2 are not congested) building a third lane. Also, parallel motorways because one is tolled in the middle of fields is crazy. Of course I understand the concept on the coast and urban sprawl areas, but somewhere else it's crazy (let's take for example the famou A-2/AP-2-corridor).


For God's sake, do you only have _one_ point about Spanish roads? You keep repeating it again and again.

A-2 and AP-2 in Catalonia follow different corridors and serve different cities. A-22/A-23/A-21 is meant to provide decent access to the ski resorts in the Aragón Pyrenees, because roads leading there are crap and carry over 20,000 vehicles per day in the winter season.

You don't seem to know a lot about Spain, and looking at a map and pointing stuff that looks wrong is not the right way to build yourself an opinion in the matter.


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## RV

verreme said:


> For God's sake, do you only have _one_ point about Spanish roads? You keep repeating it again and again.
> 
> A-2 and AP-2 in Catalonia follow different corridors and serve different cities. A-22/A-23/A-21 is meant to provide decent access to the ski resorts in the Aragón Pyrenees, because roads leading there are crap and carry over 20,000 vehicles per day in the winter season.
> 
> You don't seem to know a lot about Spain, and looking at a map and pointing stuff that looks wrong is not the right way to build yourself an opinion in the matter.


I lived there for 7 years going to a Spanish-language school y hablo sin acento el Español. I admire a lot of the work done on roads in Spain, but a few in remote zones of the northern mountain zone and in the Meseta just don't fit my mentality, when there are much more urgent actions to do in cities and they should be a high priority in road-building during these hard fiscal times.


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## arctic_carlos

^^I agree with you to some extent, but I don't think Spanish cities need new motorways so urgently. OK, Sevilla needs the completion of SE-40 and Barcelona needs some missing links too. They are currently under construction and its completion, although delayed, is going to happen in the nest years.

But Madrid's network is huge. There are too many motorways there in fact. Look at the southeastern metropolitan area and you'll freak out. Empty toll motorways and even superfluous ring roads (M-45 and M-50), or motorways just going from one ring road to another in the middle of nowhere (M-31). However, it's weird that authorities never decided to complete the northern section of M-30.

Valencia has a decent motorway network. The same could be said of other important cities like Bilbao, Málaga, Zaragoza or Valladolid. Regarding the addition of more lanes to existing roads, a lot of work has been done, but sometimes, especially in urban areas, there is simply lack of space to add more lanes due to urbanism. Think for instance about Barcelona's Rondes (ring road). It's impossible to add more lanes in most parts of them, as it's a succession of tunnels in a consolidated urban area.

Furthermore, new motorway projects in "remote" zones are precisely contributing to create new corridors that will take a traffic from urban areas. The construction of A-21 + A-23 + A-21 in Aragon is not only justified by through traffic, but also because of the importance that tourism plays in that area and the need to end the isolation of some towns. Moreover, A-23 will be an important international corridor once finished, linking Zaragoza to France.


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## ChrisZwolle

I don't think M-45 or M-50 are superfluous. They each carry a decent amount of traffic. M-45 carries between 52,000 and 94,000 vehicles per day and M-50 carries 55,000 - 90,000 vehicles per day too.


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## alserrod

RV said:


> I lived there for 7 years going to a Spanish-language school y hablo sin acento el Español. I admire a lot of the work done on roads in Spain, but a few in remote zones of the northern mountain zone and in the Meseta just don't fit my mentality, when there are much more urgent actions to do in cities and they should be a high priority in road-building during these hard fiscal times.


As you will know, one of the problems within Spanish territory management are differences between countryshide and cities. Apart of Madrid (Zaragoza, Valladolid and few cities more), you will find barely population inside the country. All of them is in the coast or not far from there.

It is not an infrastructure issue but also a social issue and sometimes there are territories where civil works are the only way to settle population there (little companies that will find the most competitive land to set up)

In the case of A-22, A-23 and A-21...

- A-23 is exactly part of an European corridor (E-07)
- It is the way to approach some shires (not to entry into mountains, it hasn't have any tunnel indeed, only to approach).
- Barcelona-anywhere in Navarra or Basque country is fastest with this way instead of AP-2 and AP-68 (even Barcelona-Bilbao will be 2 km less, for other corners of the territory quite less distance). 
- We are talking about a long corridor where the biggest infrastructure is a 3 km tunnel (in 500ish km) and connects two well populated areas


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## RV

I didn't actually mean for example the extension of Madrid's network, just some quite cheap projects, as third lanes, capacity increasing on roads going to the city to be exact.

So in Madrid: 

- Third lanes on A-3 to Arganda most urgently (up to 100,000 AADT on a 2+2 first-generation autovía, and later maybe to Tarancón
- Third lanes on A-41 to Toledo would come cheap and traffic increases constantly.
- Third lanes urgently to Navalcarnero on A-5 and later possibly to Talavera
- Fourth lanes should be considered on some sections of the A-1 and A-4. Furthermore, third lanes on A-1 should be extended to Cotos de Monterrey
- Extension of M-607 a few Kms, later maybe even to A-6
- Duplication of some very poor condition, high-traffic-level-roads around Madrid thus forming a kind of M-60 (actually I think they are working on this). Same on other roads of this kind.
- Some extension of M-501 and M-503 where it is necessary
- Consideration of making R-roads parallel to radial autovías thus easing the traffic on those; they would serve also regional traffic.

And then, some in urgent need that don't come cheap though: Completing M-30 and M-50.

The work that has been done on A-6 and A-2 is great.

It could be considered upgrading also N-320 to a high-level-route avoiding Madrid from A-2 to A-1.

In Barcelona, a B-40 would actually be necessary acting as the main connector between many above 100,000 inhabitant satellite towns.

Then you need A-7 between Valencia and Barcelona being duplicated, and of course main E-corridors with high truck traffic should be built, didn't opine like they shouldn't. Upgrading roads near Murcia or Granada for example, but it shouldn't be done like in Alicante (AP-7). I meant that some regional planners are getting quite greedy (motorways for olive pickers, AP-41, etc.).

Btw, I read something about upgrading projects on M-40. What are they doing exactly, if someone knows?


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## CNGL

I agree with the completion of M-30, but I don't think that a expensive tunnel like the proposed one is needed. I would make the substandard section across Barrio del Pilar as a full motorway in a trench. The only trouble is that I don't know is how deep is metro line 9 as it goes across that valley. About M-50 just leave as is, maybe extend it from A-1 to M-607, as tunneling below El Pardo would be also a big expense. Of course, one can let his imagination go wild like I did, I torn down half of Madrid to make way for a M-20 and a M-10, as well as rerouting A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, A-42, A-5 and A-6 back to their original alingments and extending them to M-10 (At least I didn't turn Puerta del Sol into a massive motorway interchange) .


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## alserrod

IMO, for the M-30 it is enought to separate traffics and set a little tunnel in road crosses


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## CNGL

And while I'm at it, since the road that goes out from Zaragoza towards Madrid is named Autovía de Madrid, I turned it into an expressway , complete with two exits with adjusted A-2's exit numbers. Of course, this is only a crazy idea that came from my mind, but kmposts on A-2 really need to be adjusted as I found it is way shorter than signed. I measured it from Ariza all the way to Z-40 near Zaragoza (what I call the _autobahnkreuz_ Rosales del Canal) and while 119 km are signed, I only got 113.2 with my car, meaning that there are 5.8 km missing.


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## Highway89

A good starting point for Madrid would be changing the current signs so that through traffic is encouraged to take M-50, M-45 and even M-40 instead of M-30.

For instance, when entering Madrid via A-1, at the junction with M-50 you find this sign: https://goo.gl/maps/8vTHH

Madrid is signed once in each sign, the airport is signed 3 times (!) and the road numbers are a mess, so the only real difference is "Zaragoza". The obvious consequence is that most traffic going to Valencia, Córdoba or Badajoz will never use the M-50.

If you are using the A-2, it's not better: https://goo.gl/maps/EB5yW . Only Zaragoza and Valencia are signed, apart from the road numbers, which are a bit useless if you don't really know how the Spanish road network is numbered.


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## alserrod

To my best knowledge, bypass trucks aren't allowed to entry beyond M-40... thus all signs accross M-40.

Furthermore, they were prepared when M30 (not finished yet) wasn't refurbished yet


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## verreme

A new 304-meter bridge over Llobregat river opened to traffic yesterday in El Prat de Llobregat:



















This long-awaited connection will provide a direct connection to Polígon Pratenc, an industrial park that had to be reached through Barcelona's Zona Franca, the mega industrial area next to the city's freight port.

There's more information on the details of the bridge in the official press release.

Google Maps


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> I don't think M-45 or M-50 are superfluous. They each carry a decent amount of traffic. M-45 carries between 52,000 and 94,000 vehicles per day and M-50 carries 55,000 - 90,000 vehicles per day too.


I find the western part of M-45 (between M-40 in Leganés and A-4) useful, but its eastern part, between A-4 and M-50 (in San Fernando de Henares), could have been built as a sole motorway together with M-50.

Look at this image:

https://www.google.es/maps/@40.3487502,-3.6128287,9499m/data=!3m1!1e3

Both motorways run parallel to each other for 15 km until they finally merge in San Fernando de Henares. It's a result of the Spanish property bubble between 1996 and 2008, when it was believed Madrid would grow until reaching M-50 or further beyond. All these areas between different motorways are not going to be developed in decades, as Spanish already has millions of empty housing.

Therefore I think it would have been enough with a single motorway (either M-45 or M-50) between San Fernando de Henares and the Manzanares river, to the west of which the current situation of having two different motorways, M-45 and M-50, is justified due to the existence of big cities like Móstoles, Leganés, Getafe, Fuenlabrada or Alcorcón.


----------



## adevahi

RV said:


> That is an upgrade of the Sevilla-Huelva-road adding it a third lane near Sevilla. This is what Spain should do. Mountain roads between two 50,000-habitant-locations with no urban sprawl get billions, when city accesses lack of a few million funding in all the major cities to build an extra lane.


All the bridges in the photos and the singal of workings are because of the new ringroad, SE-40


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## Highway89

I don't know the numbers for the A-66, but the cost for the A-12 between Hormilla and Hervías in La Rioja was 44.35 millions, of which 36.71 (83%) were dedicated to the works (structures, earthmoving, etc). The rest (7.64, or the 17%) were dedicated to the design, expropiation and technical control of the works.

It was a 11.1 km long stretch with three junctions. That makes about 4 million/km.


----------



## verreme

Nikolaj said:


> It is indeed. What is the explanation? Has anyone seen the cost of a Spanish divided into various cost items (detailed design, cost of land, bridges, earthwork, surfacing etc.). From my point of view it is hard to understand why a motorway in Central Jutland (Denmark) - or elsewhere in Europe - with relatively low population density, flat land with no eartwork or bridges to mention, should cost 3 times as much perkilometer.


Valueless land is the explanation. Spain has a _lot_ of unproductive land that's worth nothing, a consequence of bad land distribution and management over the centuries. Motorways through more populated areas are way more expensive.


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## Suburbanist

verreme said:


> Valueless land is the explanation. Spain has a _lot_ of unproductive land that's worth nothing, a consequence of bad land distribution and management over the centuries. Motorways through more populated areas are way more expensive.


Many European countries have construction costs (net of land acquisition) that are still much more expensive than Spain.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There aren't many rivers on the Meseta. The 49 kilometer section of A-66 has only one notable bridge (apart from overpasses and underpasses). 

A simple motorway exit in the Netherlands would usually cost at least € 10 million, more if it is a complex situation. In Spain they manage to do that at a much lower cost. The N-232 conversion into A-68 includes 4 new interchanges (5 in total) over a distance of 16 kilometers. And the cost per kilometer is only € 3.5 million.


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## verreme

^^ Salaries in Spain are also much lower than in The Netherlands.

And I don't know the details of it, but I suspect that tender procedures are also simpler.


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## Eulanthe

Sunfuns said:


> What is the website for seeing prices of Spanish toll roads and even better is there some way to judge whether it's worth paying it or the free road is just as good? Very soon I'll be in Andalusia and our approximate route is Sevilla-Cadiz-Gibraltar then more or less along the coast to Sierra Nevada followed by Granada and back to Sevilla. We won't be in any hurry, but sitting in endless traffic jams is also not funny...
> 
> Also any of you know which is the prettiest road for crossing the mountains from the coast to Granada? It doesn't need to be fast as we have an entire day to do it.


The AP-4 from Seville to Cadiz isn't expensive, I think it's only 7.25 Euro. From Cadiz to Gibraltar is toll free on the A-48. Gibraltar to Malaga - you shouldn't have any issue with traffic jams on the A-7 as opposed to AP-7, and you'll see far more of the development of the Costa Del Sol along the A-7. You bypass Estepona, Marbella and Fuengirola/Torremolinos/Malaga on free bypasses anyway, so there's not much advantage taking the AP-7.

After that, I strongly recommend doing the A-7 as far as Motril and then A-44 to Granada. The views along the A-7 are great, and the A-44 is jawdropping in some areas, especially once the Sierra Nevada comes into sight. In comparison, the A-45/A-92 route is quite dull and tedious, especially the A-92.

Do you have only one day to go from Gibraltar to Granada?


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## ChrisZwolle

Eulanthe said:


> The AP-4 from Seville to Cadiz isn't expensive, I think it's only 7.25 Euro.


A portion of AP-4 is in fact untolled. The toll segment doesn't begin until Jerez-Norte (as seen from Cádiz).


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## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> A portion of AP-4 is in fact untolled. The toll segment doesn't begin until Jerez-Norte (as seen from Cádiz).


It's astounding how many sections of motorway are actually untolled in Spain - when you look at the map, there's no reason for the AP-4 to be untolled between Jerez-Norte and Cadiz.


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## ChrisZwolle

There was a toll plaza just south of Jerez-Sur. It was dismantled in 2005 or 2006.


----------



## arctic_carlos

Eulanthe said:


> From Cadiz to Gibraltar is toll free on the A-48.


Not yet. A-48 finishes just north of Vejer de la Frontera, and A-7 begins in Algeciras. This means there is still no motorway in a big part of the road between Cádiz and Gibraltar and you would have to use the old N-340,

However, A-381, the motorway between Jerez de la Frontera and Algeciras is a good alternative. It doesn't follow the coast (so you can't spot Africa as from N-340) but it's faster.

In any event, if you are not in a hurry and it's not peak summer season, N-340 is OK and you get nice views.


----------



## Sunfuns

Eulanthe said:


> The AP-4 from Seville to Cadiz isn't expensive, I think it's only 7.25 Euro. From Cadiz to Gibraltar is toll free on the A-48. Gibraltar to Malaga - you shouldn't have any issue with traffic jams on the A-7 as opposed to AP-7, and you'll see far more of the development of the Costa Del Sol along the A-7. You bypass Estepona, Marbella and Fuengirola/Torremolinos/Malaga on free bypasses anyway, so there's not much advantage taking the AP-7.
> 
> After that, I strongly recommend doing the A-7 as far as Motril and then A-44 to Granada. The views along the A-7 are great, and the A-44 is jawdropping in some areas, especially once the Sierra Nevada comes into sight. In comparison, the A-45/A-92 route is quite dull and tedious, especially the A-92.


Thanks a lot and also to others who provided information earlier. 



Eulanthe said:


> Do you have only one day to go from Gibraltar to Granada?


No, we'll have two full days to go from Estepona to Granada and since we are staying overnight in Almunecar (close to Motril) A-45/A-92 route would be unsuitable anyway. What I was wondering is if it would be worth instead of taking A-44 directly to Granada going instead via some of the local roads. A-347/A-337 maybe or A-348/A-337 perhaps?


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## ajch

You can do A-4132 from Orjiva to Trevelez. Follow GR-421 and A-4130 until you link with A-337 in Laroles. Follow A-337 crossing "la ragua" mountain pass and end in the A-92 in La Calahorra (there is an interesting castle there). Follow A-92 to Guadix and Granada.

Is the same that A-348 and A-337 you has asked, but A-348 is in the valley, and A-4132 is in the mountain. Those villages are known as the "Alpujarras".

When you are arriving Granada take the exit 253. You will enter following the old road and the view of Granada is the best. This road has very sharp turns even when you are in the city.

From what i remember last time i took A-4132 in 2008, this is a very narrow mountain road with dangerous turns and you can't really get speed, but the view is beautiful.


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## sponge_bob

Suburbanist said:


> Many European countries have construction costs (net of land acquisition) that are still much more expensive than Spain.


ManyMost European countries.  The Iberian peninsula has a fantastic Motorway network as a consequence of the overall cost effectiveness of the construction costs.


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## ChrisZwolle

Even in Poland the average construction cost is about twice that of Spain. Most of their projects are in the € 7 - 10 million per kilometer range for rural motorways.


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## ChrisZwolle

Are there stretches of autovía in Spain with long distances between gas stations? I've been browsing on Google Earth along A-7 and it seems that all gas stations are near an exit. But I can imagine some newer stretches like A-66 which were built less than 10 years ago may have fewer gas stations.


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## alserrod

That's a good question

Should it be a tolled motorway, by law they must assure one petrol station every 30 km or so (and every 60 km or so opened 24/7)

For new free motorways, starting on 1991, they decided not to built any new one but to use current infrastructures... but sometimes petrol station can be quite near of the motorway, othertimes you may get into a town just for fill fuel.
Anyway, in several pannels it is pointed where you have a petrol station and sometimes the schedule (24h or maybe less opening). What they do not say is if you just may go besides the motorway or may go ahead for a long time.

In some trips where I do know stations, I obviously choose those ones easy to access from motorway and avoid those which are quite far.


Several years after first free motorways where opened some stations anywhere located, found that building a new station besides the motorway they will terribly increase incomings... and they were right!!

By law they couldn't ask for a new exit for a private station... but they could choose any exit for a little road and 100 m away or less, set the station. The started to built new ones which are quite more comfortable if you are travelling (and I guess they will have more incomings).

Just only in case of very high traffic I remember to let exits only for private stations but there aren't many in Spain.


this is, I guess that A-66 where you say will have no stations but they will have pointed where you can find one of them.

It is matter of time to see how stations move to the nearbies of the motorway


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## Nikolaj

Highway89 said:


> I don't know the numbers for the A-66, but the cost for the A-12 between Hormilla and Hervías in La Rioja was 44.35 millions, of which 36.71 (83%) were dedicated to the works (structures, earthmoving, etc). The rest (7.64, or the 17%) were dedicated to the design, expropiation and technical control of the works.
> 
> It was a 11.1 km long stretch with three junctions. That makes about 4 million/km.


Based on Highway 89's cost break-down we can conclude, that cheap land in Spain is not the reason for the low cost. And adding the cost of motorway construction in Poland, it can further be concluded that low wages isn't a good explanation either. As Chris mentions the low number of overpasses and bridges can be part of the explanation, but that situation is not that different from a number of other countries/regions (i.e. Central Jutland). I can only conclude that Spain must have a highly competitive construction market, and the Spoanish contractors must have come up with some very cost efficient methods. The good question - with the EU internal market and EU tendering of projects - why isn't that reflected in road construction in other EU countries?


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> Are there stretches of autovía in Spain with long distances between gas stations? I've been browsing on Google Earth along A-7 and it seems that all gas stations are near an exit. But I can imagine some newer stretches like A-66 which were built less than 10 years ago may have fewer gas stations.


Most new motorways follow an old national road where you can find a gas station. It isn't very convenient, since you have to exit the motorway, follow the old national road for maybe a kilometer to the gas station, fill the tank, and then go back to the motorway.

This map shows the location of most, if not all, gas stations (check the box that says "Gasolineras"): http://mapas.race.es/index.html

For instance, the whole A-58 between Trujillo and Cáceres has only one gas station, which is actually on the old N-521 near a village called Sierra de Fuentes, 43 km far from Trujillo.

Another long stretch I've found is the A-40 between Carrascosa del Campo and Chillarón de Cuenca, almost 50 km without a single gas station.


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## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> this is, I guess that A-66 where you say will have no stations but they will have pointed where you can find one of them.


Not exactly. The new 49 km section of A-66 has been built by some private companies as a concession. This concession also includes the operation of two service areas (one for each carriageway), which of course have gas stations.

"_Este tramo de autovía cuenta con 3 áreas de descanso, 2 áreas de servicio con zonas de explotación comercial y 9 enlaces que permitirán el acceso a las localidades y el viario del entorno, de Norte a Sur: Castrogonzalo, conexión de la nueva autovía A-66 con la autovía A-6, Santovenia - Villaveza, Santovenia, conexión con la carretera ZA-123, Riego del Camino, Fontanillas, conexión con las carreteras N-630 - N631 y Montamarta._"

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...OMUNICACION/NOTICIAS1/2015/Mayo/150511-03.htm

I admit it is not the most usual situation in new Spanish motorways (without tolls), but this section of A-66 is somehow peculiar.


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## verreme

Nikolaj said:


> Based on Highway 89's cost break-down we can conclude, that cheap land in Spain is not the reason for the low cost. And adding the cost of motorway construction in Poland, it can further be concluded that low wages isn't a good explanation either. As Chris mentions the low number of overpasses and bridges can be part of the explanation, but that situation is not that different from a number of other countries/regions (i.e. Central Jutland). I can only conclude that Spain must have a highly competitive construction market, and the Spoanish contractors must have come up with some very cost efficient methods. The good question - with the EU internal market and EU tendering of projects - why isn't that reflected in road construction in other EU countries?


Maybe it's not just because one thing or another, but because the sum of them all . We have listed several factors, and each of them adds its grain of salt.


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## verreme

Some videos of the impressive motorways in Bilbao metro area.

A-8 "Solución Sur", the main motorway through town. It carries more than 100.000 vehicles a day and has been recently overhauled with the demolition of Sabino Arana interchange and its replacement by a new one further West:






AP-8 "Supersur": this is a Southern bypass of A-8 that runs mostly on tunnels and viaducts. There are plans to extend it in order to bypass the whole Bilbao metro area, but they're on hold due to their outrageous cost. In fact, Diputación Foral de Bizkaia admits that most of its debt is due to the construction of the existing stretch of "Supersur":






And N-637, "Corredor del Txorierri". This motorway is the Northern ringroad of Bilbao. Video includes the epic Rontegi bridge, the Basque Country's most traveled road at 150.000 vehicles a day, and the monstruous Cruces interchange:


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## verreme

Some road-related news from Fomento that have been released over the past two weeks:

- The widening of *A-5* to 2x3 lanes in Madrid, between kilometers 18 and 22, has been tendered. Budget is 8.560.509,80€. This was a troublesome bottleneck that had been discussed in this thread some pages before. Press release

- Also tendered was the construction of the first stretch of the duplication of *N-IV* South of Sevilla, between Dos Hermanas and Los Palacios y Villafranca. Budget is 66.516.272,57€ for 8,4 kilometers of road. There are only two junctions so I assume this road will be motorway-like, though the press release does not mention it being a motorway.

- The Southbound carriageway of Los Visos bypass opened May 22, 2015. This means that both carriageways are now operational. This road bypasses some very dangerous bends on *A-4* just West of Córdoba. Press release

- The duplication of *SG-20* has also been tendered. This road connects A-601 with AP-61 and according to Fomento data has an AADT of up to 18.000 vehicles a day. Budget is 66.7 million € and the length of the whole road is 15.5 kilometers. Press release

- Another motorway that is in earlier planning stages is *A-12* between Burgos and Logroño in Burgos province. Fomento approved in May the 18th the project of the first stretch of this motorway, Ibeas de Juarros-Burgos, which will be 4,2 kilometers long and has an estimated budget of 67 million €. Press release

- Finally, Fomento has also approved the first stage of the new project of Benissa bypass on *N-332* in Alicante province. Works on this bypass started in 2007 and were halted in 2009 when the construction company went bust. The new project costs almost double, as it includes some modifications that will translate to much higher expropiation costs. However, opening is not expected until at least 2018. Press release


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## MichiH

verreme said:


> Some road-related news from Fomento that have been released over the past two weeks:


¡Gracias! 

I'll add the new motorway-like projects to the u/c list as soon as works will be started. It's sometimes hard to find proper data, so I began to collect more data offline of not yet u/c projects.



verreme said:


> - Also tendered was the construction of the first stretch of the duplication of *N-IV* South of Sevilla, between Dos Hermanas and Los Palacios y Villafranca. Budget is 66.516.272,57€ for 8,4 kilometers of road. There are only two junctions so I assume this road will be motorway-like, though the press release does not mention it being a motorway.


Is "Enlace" = grade-separated interchange or could it also just be an at-grade "junction"? If there will be an i/c for N-8029, it's motorway standard:

*N-IV:* Dos Hermanas-South (AP4) – Los Palacios-North 8.4km (2015/16 to ?) – project – map



verreme said:


> - The Southbound carriageway of Los Visos bypass opened May 22, 2015. This means that both carriageways are now operational. This road bypasses some very dangerous bends on *A-4* just West of Córdoba. Press release


Can't find the post but I think I wrote that this realignment is not worth to be added to the list because the distance to the existing motorway carriageways - which are closed now - is too close.



verreme said:


> - The duplication of *SG-20* has also been tendered. This road connects A-601 with AP-61 and according to Fomento data has an AADT of up to 18.000 vehicles a day. Budget is 66.7 million € and the length of the whole road is 15.5 kilometers. Press release


Two lots (8.4+7.1km) but I will most likely make one project:

*SG20:* Segovia-North (A601) – Segovia-South (AP61) 15.5km (2015/16 to ?) – project – map



verreme said:


> - Another motorway that is in *earlier planning stages* is *A-12* between Burgos and Logroño in Burgos province. Fomento approved in May the 18th the project of the first stretch of this motorway, Ibeas de Juarros-Burgos, which will be 4,2 kilometers long and has an estimated budget of 67 million €. Press release


Earlier planning stage. Hmmm....



Highway89 said:


> The project of the A-12 from Santo Domingo to Burgos is currently being drawn up by engineers. It goes on at a (very) slow pace.
> As you said, *works between Burgos and Ibeas de Juarros are expected to begin in late 2015* following a PPP method. That's the most necessary segment at the moment, as it carries commuter traffic from/to Burgos. Map: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=es&lat=42.340021&lon=-3.581629&z=14&m=o


*A12:* Burgos-East (AP1) – Ibeas de Juarros 4.2km (2015/16 to ?) – project – map



verreme said:


> - Finally, Fomento has also approved the first stage of the new project of Benissa bypass on *N-332* in Alicante province. Works on this bypass started in 2007 and were halted in 2009 when the construction company went bust. The new project costs almost double, as it includes some modifications that will translate to much higher expropiation costs. However, opening is not expected until at least 2018. Press release


It's this section, isn't it?

*A38:* Benissa-North – Benissa-South 4.5km (2007 to >= 2018) – ? – map

Does it really get motorway standard?



> Consiste en una carretera convencional de 4,5 km, con carriles adicionales para vehículos lentos en ambos sentidos.
> 
> Google translated:
> It consists of a *conventional* road 4.5 km, with *additional lanes for slow vehicles* in both directions.


Slow vehicles... Maybe it will not be access-controlled (not mandatory for my list)? Will the interchanges be grade-separated?


More projects from my offline list of not yet u/c projects:

*A44:* Las Gabias (A338) – Alhendin 6.1km (2015/16 to ?) – ? – map
*A62:* Nuevo Poblado (P/E border) – Fuentes de Onoro 5km (2nd half 2015 to April 2018) – ? – map
*AG??:* Domaio – Domaio (AP9) 3.3km (Fall 2015 to 2017) [2nd c/w] – project – map


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## alserrod

Enlace in this case is "junction". It is a word used to point somewhere in a road map where the other way would be the km. and road number or the GPS position or that stuff


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## MichiH

^^ I often read "Enlace" on wikipedia and in the press releases. If I got you right, it could mean both!? What do you think when you read the press release?


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## alserrod

I asked several forumers from Andalucia and said this was the stretch to have a 2x2

https://www.google.es/maps/dir/37.2...cfa4567a306!2m2!1d-5.9171644!2d37.1423424!3e0

So... here's "translation" about "enlace"


In addition, Tolled motorway will not lose incomings 'cos toll is the same if you take off in Los Palacios or continue until Dos Hermanas/Seville


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## verreme

MichiH said:


> ¡Gracias!
> 
> I'll add the new motorway-like projects to the u/c list as soon as works will be started. It's sometimes hard to find proper data, so I began to collect more data offline of not yet u/c projects.
> 
> 
> 
> Is "Enlace" = grade-separated interchange or could it also just be an at-grade "junction"? If there will be an i/c for N-8029, it's motorway standard:
> 
> *N-IV:* Dos Hermanas-South (AP4) – Los Palacios-North 8.4km (2015/16 to ?) – project – map
> 
> *"Enlace" can mean both grade-separated and at-grade. The exact translation is "junction", so as vague as it gets .*
> 
> Can't find the post but I think I wrote that this realignment is not worth to be added to the list because the distance to the existing motorway carriageways - which are closed now - is too close.
> 
> *Agree.*
> 
> Two lots (8.4+7.1km) but I will most likely make one project:
> 
> *SG20:* Segovia-North (A601) – Segovia-South (AP61) 15.5km (2015/16 to ?) – project – map
> 
> 
> 
> Earlier planning stage. Hmmm....
> 
> 
> 
> *A12:* Burgos-East (AP1) – Ibeas de Juarros 4.2km (2015/16 to ?) – project – map
> 
> 
> 
> It's this section, isn't it?
> 
> *Yes. However, what has been approved is the project. It has yet to be tendered. That's why I said "earlier planning stage", because other projects in the news list I made were already in the tendering process.*
> 
> *A38:* Benissa-North – Benissa-South 4.5km (2007 to >= 2018) – ? – map
> 
> Does it really get motorway standard?
> 
> Slow vehicles... Maybe it will not be access-controlled (not mandatory for my list)? Will the interchanges be grade-separated?
> 
> *"Carretera convencional" means that it's not a motorway. This road will be two-lane, with occasional climbing lanes. I don't know if it will be banned for slow vehicles, nor if it will have at-grade intersections or if it will be ready for a duplication into A-38. It won't definitely be a motorway, at least not anytime soon, so I'd scrap it off your list.*
> 
> More projects from my offline list of not yet u/c projects:
> 
> *A44:* Las Gabias (A338) – Alhendin 6.1km (2015/16 to ?) – ? – map
> *A62:* Nuevo Poblado (P/E border) – Fuentes de Onoro 5km (2nd half 2015 to April 2018) – ? – map
> *AG??:* Domaio – Domaio (AP9) 3.3km (Fall 2015 to 2017) [2nd c/w] – project – map


Answers in *bold and italic*


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## ChrisZwolle

I took a huge trip through Spain over the past two weeks (map)

Although it was my 4th time in Spain (2nd time alone in a car), it was the first time I drove so far into Spain. Some notes;

*Motorways*
The quality of motorways was generally OK. However, some stretches need repaving, both on toll roads and toll-free roads. I remember the bridge on A-66 just north of Sevilla with a pavement that looks like gravel. Very loud and uncomfortable. The amount of potholes was fairly limited though, but some older autovías were patched up to a point it makes sense to repave the entire roadway. 

The capacity of the motorways is generally very generous. There are plenty of wide motorways around Barcelona, and AP-7 even has eight lanes for quite a long stretch in the Girona area. The six-lane segment ends just after Tarragona. The new A-7 around Málaga is also very good. 

The one motorway I've driven with less-than-stellar capacity was A-7 between Alicante and Murcia, where six lanes would be more comfortable. This is a busy corridor and the six-lane segment already ends where AP-7 splits off to Cartagena. Also, A-7 runs in a TOTSO at Murcia, with a short and overloaded merge. Of course, these were one-time observations.

SE-30 through Sevilla is substandard, especially the bridge across the Río Guadalquivir, but also the tight curves. SE-40 will help a lot for through traffic, in particular along the eastern and southern side of Sevilla.

*Rest areas*
The rest areas along toll roads are satisfactory. However, they are generally terrible along autovías if you want to do anything more than refueling. There are no picnic tables or benches at most locations. Also; I've almost never seen them offering an opportunity to clean the windows. The fuel prices at exits near autovías are not much different than directly along toll roads. I expected more discounts, though Spain remains very cheap compared to the Netherlands or France, which are € 0.40 and € 0.20 more expensive along the motorway, respectively. The cheapest I've refueled was € 1.28 per liter at the A-8 exit at Unquera. But they were generally in the € 1.32 - 1.35 range. 

Also notable (to me at least) was the fact that at many gas stations they would pump the gas for you. I'm not sure if you're supposed to tip them, I never did and haven't gotten any strange reactions to my not tipping. Having people pump the gas for you is very unusual in the Netherlands, France or Germany, save for perhaps the local mom & pop gas station.

*Signage*
I found the signage to be adequate. However, sometimes there are really a lot of road numbers, and the color difference between regional or provincial roads is not that apparant to the occasional visitor. A-7 is still signed as CV-40 north of Alcoi. Also, some stretches of A-7 are still numbered N-340 on the mileposts. 

I was surprised by the lack of long-distance signage on some autovías. For instance on A-66 you won't see the next control city on the signs until you're at the first one. For example heading north on A-66 from Sevilla, it shows Mérida, which makes sense. But the next control city doesn't appear until you enter Mérida, which makes it looks like the motorway would end at Mérida, as nothing is shown beyond it. Especially for a long-distance route like A-66 this was strange. 

*Road signs*
In my opinion there is an overkill of road signs in Spain. Manufacturers must do a very good business. Passing or no passing is not only indicated by road markings, but also by road signs, mounted on both sides of the road. As many road are curvy, this leads to passing/no passing signs every few hundred meters. 

In addition, there are way too much advisory speed limits, at almost every curve and tunnel. Much more than in other countries, and they tend to be too low anyway. I was approaching a curve on A-8 near Bilbao and there was a whole circus of signs saying '80' with electronic signs and even speed cameras, so I thought, 'okay, this must be the craziest curve I've ever seen on a motorway'. But it was nothing special, it could easily be driven at 100 km/h. In most cases a simple 'curve left/right' sign would be sufficient.

Also, there are far too much speed limit signs when you approach a situation where you need to slow down. They post several speed limit signs at exits, off ramps and when approaching roundabouts. A little common sense would be sufficient imho. 

*Driver behaviour*
As others have pointed out to me, driving in Spain is quite relaxing. The traffic volumes outside of cities are generally low. The busiest locations I've driven were A-7 around Valencia (lots of trucks!) and SE-30 through Sevilla, otherwise it wasn't too bad around Barcelona or Málaga. Murcia and Granada were also somewhat busy, but nothing serious.

Spanish drivers are quite well behaved. They don't hog left lanes, use signals, and don't speed excessively. They also don't honk much (could be different in inner cities?) The only thing they don't seem to know their way with, are motorways with 3 or more lanes. I've seen people staying in the middle lanes for no reason. AP-7 around Girona was especially bad with eight lanes, light traffic and almost nobody using the right lane.

Other than that I had a blast driving in Spain. It was by far the longest road trip I've ever driven (6577 km) and I've seen many regions of Spain. It is such a varied country.


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## verreme

Wow! You had one hell of a trip 

A-7 between Elche and Murcia will get some relief when A-33 is complete. It will take most long-distance traffic out of the coast. As for road signs, you're absolutely right -we have too many of them, especially speed limit signs when approaching intersections or on offramps. And it's not uncommon for the police to set up a speed trap at these locations with the sole purpose of making money from motorists that just happen to brake later.

I'm surprised that you didn't have to pump your own fuel in any rest area. It's definitely unusual in my region, and when I travel outside it I only come across self-service petrol stations.

Spanish big cities are not very different from motorways when it comes to driving -only the amount of motorcycles may be a bit surprising for a non-Southern European driver. Barcelona is the 2nd city with the most motorcycles in the world. Anyway, it's not especially dangerous. Just live and let live


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## alserrod

I'll suggest you to get parallel free motorways instead of AP7 next time. A new lane to drive and free. There are some stretches of A7 near Tarragona but CV10 near Castellon too


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## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> I'm surprised that you didn't have to pump your own fuel in any rest area. It's definitely unusual in my region, and when I travel outside it I only come across self-service petrol stations.


It happened to me all over Spain. Except the refueling in Catalonia along AP-7. I expected that the Carrefour fuel stations would be cheaper than elsewhere, but this didn't seem to be the case. 

I also noticed how few foreign cars and trucks there are once you get past Catalonia. I've seen only a few Polish and Romanian trucks, but the far majority were Spanish trucks. In France or Germany a large share of trucks have foreign plates. 

I also saw practically no foreign cars anymore once I got south of Valencia. On the campsites there were mostly Spanish people, and some Germans, but almost no British or even Dutch people. I know it wasn't peak season, but you can usually see Dutch cars all over France, whatever time of the year. On my first day I drove non-motorway all the way to Vichy and passed numerous Dutch cars.


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## alserrod

In low-cost service stations like Carrefour it is usual to have terribly prices... providing you use your customer card. It is free but you will not have a lower price. Instead of it, you will have a check to use in the supermarket. It is quite often (they made, therefore, double business, you may go to petrol station and to supermarket)

Once driving in the A-2 I could see almost all foreing plates in trucks but as far from Europe they were, as usual they were. But in the A-23 I barely saw only French plates.

Furthermore... think that for a long distance two people journey, a low cost flight and a rent-a-car will be cheaper than toll, fuel, etc... providing you do not have your car full of baggages. In summer, for a whole family and a lot of luggage it can worth the car but it is often to see people avoiding those km by plane and renting a car. It is cheaper.


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## ChrisZwolle

I suppose most foreign cars in southern Spain are of long-term stayers (snow birds) where renting a car for several months would be more expensive than driving all the way down there. 

For me it was probably cheaper as well to fly to Málaga and drive a car. But the fun was driving all the way down there. 

As some of you may know I only drive a small city car; a 2011 Hyundai i10. But it held out surprisingly well. The seats are amazing, it never hurt my back or other stiff muscles, which happened to me in other cars on long trips. Also when driving it feels like a larger car, especially compared to other vehicles in this class like the VW Up or Peugeot 107. The i10 is actually registered as an MPV. It has 3 back seats (though I wouldn't recommend 3 adults in the back!)


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## alserrod

Or.... having two cars, one in their own country, another one in Spain. You must pay two taxes and assurances but avoid tolls and fuel (and renting)

By the way, did you cross to Portugal?


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes I stayed near Marvão for one night. I wanted to stay two nights but it was very hot there, and the campsite had very little shade (just small olive trees), so I went to Sierra de Francia in Salamanca province.

I drove the entire length of A-66 / AP-66 from Sevilla to Gijón. The AP-66 in northern León province is spectacular. The Negrón Tunnel is a clear dividing line. South of the tunnel it was warm and sunny with no cloud in the sky. Just 4 kilometers north it looked like I suddenly ended up in Ireland or something, with very green and lush landscapes with rain and low-hanging clouds.


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## alserrod

Step by step....


after finishing the "Silver route motorway" (Autopista Vía de la Plata) Sevilla-Gijon, I would state that you are the first SSC forumer who drives corner to corner...

the northern side in Spain has a lot of thing in common with Ireland, Bretagne and G.Britain, not only the weather but also the culture. You will see many celtic signs in that area. It is so weird because you can come from the Meseta (coming from Leon) or Ebro valley (Miranda de Ebro) and suddenly you are in the called "Green coast". In Spain it is used more as an area to have a rest rather to have a bath, but quite cool.

The AP-66 is not the best motorway in Spain. It was built as cheap as they could with many curves. They only wanted to assure to be able to drive 120 km/h but do not try to drive faster...
and the tunnel you crossed, at the beginning was a single 1x1 in the motorway. It took too much to build second tunnel (like nowadays)


Next time you drive there, if you wanna be off-road I can suggest you some roads between Leon/Palencia and the point you want in the Cantabric. Just say as many mountain passes you wanna drive, as many scenic points to stop you want... and I'll prepare a route.


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## adevahi

ChrisZwolle said:


> *Motorways*
> I remember the bridge on A-66 just north of Sevilla with a pavement that looks like gravel. Very loud and uncomfortable. The amount of potholes was fairly limited though, but some older autovías were patched up to a point it makes sense to repave the entire roadway.
> 
> SE-30 through Sevilla is substandard, especially the bridge across the Río Guadalquivir, but also the tight curves. SE-40 will help a lot for through traffic, in particular along *the eastern and southern side* of Sevilla.


Is substandard, yes, you can't imagine how much polemic has been, in this city, that bridge (the one in the south) since the day it was opened in 1991 (this day was the first traffic jam and nowadays the area have 300.000 people more) but can't agree with your conclussion: north and west need SE-40 more than the east. However, since the east part of SE-40 is done, some of the "help" is already working.

(Apart: boh bridges are across the Río Guadalquivir)



ChrisZwolle said:


> *Road signs*
> Also, there are far too much speed limit signs when you approach a situation where you need to slow down. They post several speed limit signs at exits, off ramps and when approaching roundabouts. A little common sense would be sufficient imho.


Were you in el Ejido, maybe? "Never enough", thought a politician from there:












ChrisZwolle said:


> *Driver behaviour*
> As others have pointed out to me, driving in Spain is quite relaxing. The traffic volumes outside of cities are generally low. The busiest locations I've driven were A-7 around Valencia (lots of trucks!) and SE-30 through Sevilla, otherwise it wasn't too bad around Barcelona or Málaga. Murcia and Granada were also somewhat busy, but nothing serious.


I like to see that a foreign person say that SE-30 is one of the busiest. We have seen during 20 years projects and projects of different roads never done (SE-35, SE-40, new bridges, longer SE-20) while these years, overvalorated infrastructures were done in all the country


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## Carretero

Did you drive along any A-7 segment in Malaga-Cádiz provinces, between Fuengirola and Guadiaro? (the old duplicated N-340 road). Did you get a good impression of it?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No I took AP-7. By far most traffic exited at A-7 before each toll section. AP-7 tolls are a rip-off, but at least it's a pleasant ride.


----------



## Highway89

I'm surprised you didn't mention the roundabout at the N-620/A-66 junction in Salamanca. It's much worse, IMO, than the TOTSO in the A-7 in Murcia.

About gas stations and prices: I usually refuel at a self-service station next to Alcampo (mall) here in Logroño. Current price for 95 petrol is € 1.177 / litre. In the Repsol station at the rest area of the AP-68, it is € 1.339. About tipping - you needn't tip.

About speed limit signs: I think there's a law saying that the maximum difference from one speed limit to the next is 20 or 30 km/h. That's why you find 100-80-60-40 when leaving a motorway or approaching a roundabout.

I completely agree with you about middle lane hoggers. It's exasperating.

Foreing cars are common in July and August on some motorways because of the people of North African or Portuguese descent working in France, the Benelux, Germany or Switzerland. For instance, the AP-1 towards Burgos is usually full of cars with French, Luxembourgish, Belgian or Dutch plates in the summer. Once in Burgos, traffic is derived to the A-231 towards northern Portugal, the A-62 towards central Portugal, and the A-1 to Madrid and Algeciras.


----------



## RV

Eulanthe said:


> I think it might refer to the upgraded N-340 rather than anything else. It's hard to tell now, but I remember the N-340 from the early 90's between Fuengirola and Marbella and there was considerably less development than now. I drove the A-7 along the coast a few months ago, and my wife was sick of me constantly expressing "wow...look how much is here now" every two minutes.
> 
> It's certainly mostly unrecognisable from my memories, especially around Calahonda. So at the time in 1988, the N-340 would've been fairly decent with the separated junctions and so on.
> 
> It's funny, the A-7 seems terrible today, but it really was a decent road back in the early to mid 90's. The worst problems were through Marbella (speaking of which, the road through San Pedro de la Alacantra shocked me for how good it is now!) in the past, especially once the Benalmadena bypass was opened. After Estapona was also a disaster with the old single carriageway road.
> 
> I was thinking about it, and I just can't see what they can do with the A-7 now. There's possibly some room to expand to 2x3 in places, and perhaps some of the most dangerous parts (such as the curves just west of Fuengirola) could be completely realigned, but the amount of residential areas now developed there makes it nearly impossible to do much. Of course - removing the tolls between Fuengirola and Marbella would certainly help!


I used to live a little time in Calahonda! I remember being terrified when mum drove me to school and she had to get on to the "autovía". 

Fuengirola by-pass supports 60 000-80 000 ADT and should be upgraded to 2x3.


----------



## Eulanthe

RV said:


> I used to live a little time in Calahonda! I remember being terrified when mum drove me to school and she had to get on to the "autovía".
> 
> Fuengirola by-pass supports 60 000-80 000 ADT and should be upgraded to 2x3.


Yes, it used to be far worse with the higher speed limits. I remember seeing some absolutely crazy driving there in the past by obviously drunk locals, but the Guardia Civil really did change things in that respect.

Agreed about upgrading the Fuengirola bypass to 2x3, but I suspect that the operator of the AP-7 there has some contract stopping any such ideas. But the huge shopping areas there certainly don't help - there's a huge British shop there that attracts a ridiculous amount of tourists from all along the coast, for instance.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> I put together a new video of A-7 around the city of Valencia. The amount of trucks is quite high.


Oddly enough, the speed limit on most of A-7 was lowered to 100 km/h from 120 km/h after it was widened to 3+3 lanes, so you can't just drive faster on the wider road -before 2008, you drove 100 km/h behind a line of cars, now you drive 100 because there are speed cameras everywhere.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*CV-40 Xàtiva - Albaida*

The A-7 Valencia - Alicante is interrupted by CV-40, an autovía that runs from the A-7/A-35 interchange near Xàtiva to the provincial border with Alicante near Albaida. A very short stretch near Albaida is also signed as N-340.

Some photos:


A7-48 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-49 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-52 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-55 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-57 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-58 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-60 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-62 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-66 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-68 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-70 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-71 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-74 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-75 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-78 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-79 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-80 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

why only in valentian the road information signs ?


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ I assume it's because the competent administration for that section of autovía (CV-40) is the Valencian Government (Generalitat Valenciana) instead of the Spanish Government (Ministerio de Fomento)...

The linguistic issue can be problematic in some parts of Spain, I know, but the situation in the Valencian Community is particularly messy, where you usually find on the same road signs only in Spanish, other signs only in Valencian, and finally others that are bilingual.

In contrast, in Catalonia a majority of signs are only in Catalan, although some State owned roads can have bilingual signs (not always).


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## Suburbanist

Bilingual signs are okay, but (at least) Spanish signaling should be mandatory.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Bonus photo: road AL-5107 north of Carboneras, Andalusia.


AL-5107 Carboneras by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## CNGL

Suburbanist said:


> Bilingual signs are okay, but (at least) Spanish signaling should be mandatory.


It actually is. I even read that someone always got away from being fined thanks to that. There was some no parking sign due to a reason, but it was only written in Catalan, so he parked anyways. When he got fined, he argued it was not written in Spanish as it must be.


----------



## arctic_carlos

Suburbanist said:


> Bilingual signs are okay, but (at least) Spanish signaling should be mandatory.


I see your point, but as in Catalonia both official languages (Spanish and Catalan) are so similar (in writing), most people don't have any trouble with it. Let's see: norte/nord, sur/sud, este/est, oeste/oest, centro/centre, salida/sortida, cambio de sentido/canvi de sentit, área de servicio/àrea de servei, and so on.

In the Basque Country/Euskadi the situation, of course, is completely different, as Basque and Spanish are very different languages and therefore basic words like the above mentioned are not similar at all and bilingual signs are thus indispensable for any non-Basque speaker.


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## adevahi

Suburbanist said:


> Bilingual signs are okay, but (at least) Spanish signaling should be mandatory.


In this comment there is too much logical for spanish politicians. BANNED!


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## ChrisZwolle

The next phase of BU-30 around Burgos will open to traffic on Thursday (9 July).

* new motorway alignment Villatoro - Quintanadueñas
* second carriageway Villímar - Villatoro

http://www.diariodeburgos.es/notici...F/20150707/jueves/abren/trafico/tuneles/ronda


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## Vignole

^^
Good news


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## verreme

AFAIK CV-40 was transferred to Fomento long ago -so it should already be A-7. But somehow it still has all the old signage.


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## Vignole

^^

This is not true, CV-40 is still owned by Generalitat Valenciana.


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## ChrisZwolle

It would make sense to renumber it to A-7. And maybe sign Alicante via that route as well, though I can see the benefits of signing Alicante via A-35 especially for trucks (fewer hills and tunnels).


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## verreme

There was an agreement to transferi CV-40 to Fomento long ago:

http://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-2007-13796

However, it seems that it didn't materialize.



ChrisZwolle said:


> It would make sense to renumber it to A-7. And maybe sign Alicante via that route as well, though I can see the benefits of signing Alicante via A-35 especially for trucks (fewer hills and tunnels).


The A-31+A-35 route will become the choice when A-33 in La Font de la Figuera is complete -which should be this year.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some news:

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...urgos-en/eee8eb5f-e600-4f36-8d81-209cecb43cb1

BU-30 between Villímar and Quintanadueñas opened to traffic today.

The remaining sections of A-12 between Logroño and Burgos will be approved in 2015-2016.

The sections of A-11 between Soria and Aranda de Duero will also be resumed soon.

The Medinaceli interchange (A-2/A-15) will open in September/October.

Works on A-60 between Puente de Villarente and Santas Martas will also be resumed shortly.


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## Suburbanist

Is it true that the "Podemos" party has announced as a major policy to make all highways toll-free for low-income workers?


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## alserrod

About A-12

To be honest... AFAIK, only the nearest stretch to Burgos contract will run up this year. They want to make it full (works started near Logroño in year 2000.......) but let's remember that there are works halted today.


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## Highway89

alserrod said:


> About A-12
> 
> To be honest... AFAIK, only the nearest stretch to Burgos contract will run up this year. They want to make it full (works started near Logroño in year 2000.......) but let's remember that there are works halted today.


On the A-12? Halted? Where?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-7 Alcoy*

Some photos of A-7 (Valencia - Alicante) in the Alcoy area. This is the newest part of A-7 in this region. The last link opened in 2011.

Some notes;

* Spanish and Valencian names appear to be used interchangeably.
* A-77 is signed already at Ibi, the relevance at this point is nil.
* CV-80 is not signed at all from A-7. 


A7-81 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-82 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-84 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-86 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-89 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-93 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-97 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-98 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-101 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-102 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-104 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-108 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-109 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-110 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-114 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-115 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## alserrod

Highway89 said:


> On the A-12? Halted? Where?


Western Santo Domingo. 

When did they start works?
How long have they been without working on the west of Santo Domingo?


----------



## VITORIA MAN

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some photos of A-7 (Valencia - Alicante) in the Alcoy area. This is the newest part of A-7 in this region. The last link opened in 2011.
> 
> Some notes;
> 
> * Spanish and Valencian names appear to be used interchangeably.
> * A-77 is signed already at Ibi, the relevance at this point is nil.
> * CV-80 is not signed at all from A-7.


why two road numbers on the sign ( a7-a77) ?
you are only driving along the a 7 motorway
i'd put the a77 sign besides alacant


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## Highway89

alserrod said:


> Western Santo Domingo.
> 
> When did they start works?
> How long have they been without working on the west of Santo Domingo?


I explained it before: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=122665601&postcount=5043

The motorway was supposed to end (temporarily) where it ends now, in Santo Domingo. What they did between Santo Domingo and Grañón was to prepare the platform for the next stretch of the motorway (Santo Domingo-Villamayor del Río), by building new over- and underpasses which allow a second carriageway. But that second carriageway is part of the next stretch, and thus the works never started, so they can't have been _halted_.


In Spanish:


> Al final de la variante de Santo Domingo de la Calzada se realiza la transición de la autovía a carretera convencional. *A partir de ese punto y hasta el final del tramo se mantiene una única calzada, dejando la plataforma y las estructuras preparadas para la futura duplicación*. Se incluye la construcción de un puente singular sobre el arroyo Majuelos, que alberga dos tableros iguales, uno por calzada, a una cota superior a la del puente existente. La nueva estructura permite el mantenimiento del puente actual a nivel inferior con gálibo suficiente para el paso del Camino de Santiago.



Source: http://www.fomento.gob.es/Contraste...municacion/noticias1/2012/julio/120705-01.htm


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-7 Vera - Carboneras*

I made a video of A-7 in eastern Andalusia, from Vera to Carboneras. It's a 50 kilometer stretch of motorway. Exit 516 is unsigned. There are no signs in advance.


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## tonylondon

chris do you think that spanish roads are better than italian roads I mean from your experience thanks


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## ChrisZwolle

I have only limited driving experience in Italy, mostly near the Swiss border and some parts of Lombardy. So I can't answer that question completely. Italian toll roads are of very high quality, though some are substandard (curves, width). 

Spain has a major advantage; a huge network of toll-free motorways. Italy doesn't have that to the same extent.

The driving culture in Spain seems to be much better than Italy though.


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## Xpressway

^^ Agreed. Spain has a pretty nice driving culture. Did this happen over time or people in Spain have a long lasting tradition of driving culture?


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## alserrod

It has been improving every year. My parents remember when they went on holidays, my father driving, my mother with my brother and me over her and all baggages in the rear seats.

It was quite, quite common in Spain then. In fact, when they record a series or movie based on those years, people never have the seat belt in the movie because they weren't used to get it!!!

Obviously, no seat belts (and let's not talk about airbags or so).
People drove as fast as they could and... I think it was 1992 the year we had more fatalities.

Better cars (and for instance, compulsory rear seat belts and belts in cities too...), less tolerance against infractions and better highway network made numbers getting better.
When in 2006 the point-licence-card was set up, fatalities decreased much more...


It is not an "old culture" but a quite recent change. Twenty years ago maybe a driver couldn't worry about alcohol if he was in an amusement event. Today there is a strong culture not to drink if you are going to drive.

Change (and numbers) have been important but as said... recently


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## Vignole

^^

When I was a child, in the 80s, I remember nobody used to stop in crosswalks. Actually, most of drivers do. Also horning was very common.


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## verreme

^^ Anyway, we've always been pretty average when it comes to driving -we have changed with time, but so have done the French or the Germans.

I think our worst problem to this date is middle-lane hogging. I'd say 95% of drivers ignore the right lane when driving on motorways with three lanes or more.


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## tonylondon

Thanks for your honest answer Chris..


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## ChrisZwolle

Spain is the only country in southern Europe with a traffic fatality rate significantly below EU average.


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## Sunfuns

It's easy to drive in Spain, much easier than in Italy for sure (have done both). Roads are excellent and I find driving culture also above average.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-7 Ibi - Alicante*

The last photos of A-7 between Valencia and Alicante, the southernmost stretch into the desert near Alicante. The landscape becomes much more arid on the last 30 kilometers between Ibi and Alicante.

Also note, the 'urbanización' indication. That happens from time to time in Spain, but is uncommon elsewhere in Europe. These exits are serving outlying suburbanized areas that aren't really part of a town or village.


A7-116 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-118 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-122 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-124 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-125 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-126 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-128 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-129 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*AP-7 Circunvalación de Alicante*

Some photos of toll road AP-7 from the A-7 interchange near Sant Vincent del Raspeig to A-7 near Elche. It is the western half of the Alicante bypass. 

There is practically no traffic on the toll section. In theory it is a bypass for through traffic around Alicante, but in reality not much through traffic uses AP-7 along the coast, everyone uses A-35/A-31 to get through this area, so through traffic ends up not using the tolled section.

This area is particularly arid.


AP7-132 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-133 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-134 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-135 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-136 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-137 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-139 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-140 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-141 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-142 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-143 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-145 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## verreme

^^ Plus, traffic coming from Valencia on AP-7 can also use A-70, which is toll-free. When coming from A-7 I always take A-77 to A-70; the only downside of this route is that the interchange between these two is an awkward roundabout after a long downhill stretch where you really have to work your brakes.

I only took AP-7 "Circunvalación de Alicante" once -I didn't know the area, and signage directs you there. It's not hard to understand why Ciralsa (the concessionaire of this motorway) is broke.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ The average daily traffic on AP-7 around Alicante varies from 4,700 to 6,600 vehicles per day. That's really low for a motorway. 

The least used autovías in Spain are probably RM-16 and RM-17 to the Región de Murcia International Airport. The motorways were completed in 2011, but the airport is not operational yet (apparently because it was built in a no fly zone :nuts: )


----------



## verreme

I made a video of AP-2 in Monegros desert, between Zaragoza and the Greenwich Meridian -which is signed with a nice arc that's lit at night.








ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ The average daily traffic on AP-7 around Alicante varies from 4,700 to 6,600 vehicles per day. That's really low for a motorway.
> 
> The least used autovías in Spain are probably RM-16 and RM-17 to the Región de Murcia International Airport. The motorways were completed in 2011, but the airport is not operational yet (apparently because it was built in a no fly zone :nuts: )


The problem with this new airport is that it would force the closure of the existing San Javier airport, which depends on the central government (the new one in Corvera was built by the regional government of Murcia) and works on a profit, and there's no agreement between both governments to close it and start operating the new one. With the airport in San Javier working and no need to expand it, its a bit pointless to open another one so close. They basically started building it without even having talked about it.

The fact that there are not one but _two_ motorways reaching the new airport is pointless anyway -what a waste of money. They thought Murcia was Dubai and built motorways just to show off what they could do -banana republic politics basically.


----------



## adevahi

^^ This is it: Greenwich Meridian arc in AP-2 during the night


----------



## CNGL

Yet another pointless airport without planes, like Castellón. Huesca and Ciudad Real actually had a few.

Regarding AADT, I was surprised to find a section of A-2 in Soria province, more precisely between Medinaceli and Arcos de Jalón, which doesn't reach 10000 vehicles per day. This is where traffic counts stop dropping and start rising steadily towards Zaragoza. Even an hypothetical A-2 through the middle of nowhere (i.e. between Pina de Ebro and Fraga), assuming no AP-2, would carry more traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I do not recall any indication of a Greenwich Meridian along AP-7. It would be near Castellón.


----------



## CNGL

Nor on A-22 West of Barbastro. But it is signed on N-420 near its junction with N-232.

I actually went to hunt the IERS Reference Meridian (the GPS zero, which is 5 arcseconds East of Greenwich) and found it just outside Berbegal (which explains why I call it the Berbegal meridian).


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I do not recall any indication of a Greenwich Meridian along AP-7. It would be near Castellón.


In the N420 you can find a little stop area called "greenwich" in the exact point where meridian crosses the road. It is pointed 500m before


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## Highway89

I wonder whether there's any sign indicating the 45th parallel north.

Curiously, the point in which the Greenwich meridian meets the 45th parallel is almost exactly on the French A89 just south of Saint-Seurin-sur-l'Isle, although there doesn't seem to be any kind of indication. They could build a rest stop or a park or something there.


----------



## Suburbanist

Highway89 said:


> I wonder whether there's any sign indicating the 45th parallel north.
> 
> Curiously, the point in which the Greenwich meridian meets the 45th parallel is almost exactly on the French A89 just south of Saint-Seurin-sur-l'Isle, although there doesn't seem to be any kind of indication. They could build a rest stop or a park or something there.


Is the 45th parallel some special great circle? I mean in the astronomical sense...


----------



## Suburbanist

Are there any plans to close the small gap between AP-64 and AP-9 in Ferrol?


----------



## Highway89

Suburbanist said:


> Is the 45th parallel some special great circle? I mean in the astronomical sense...


It's the parallel that divides each hemisphere in 2 parts. The Equator is the parallel 0, poles are the "90th parallel". I'm not sure about the astronomical importance, though. I guess it's the tropics and the artic/antartic circles that are important. Nevertheless, the Greenwich meridian has no astronomical importance either, as far as I know.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Have there ever been plans to build a direct road link from Cádiz/Jerez de la Frontera to Huelva? Right now there is no road link across the Guadalquivir River until Sevilla. Apparently there are no local ferry routes either.


----------



## ajch

Plan yes, even part of the road link was build in the province of Huelva, but was never finished. The road build was renamed and forgotten in the regional network.

There is a big problem, and is that Doñana national park is in the middle, and its protecction area goes near Sevilla following the guadalquivir river, so the only avalaible solution is the SE-40 if one day we have the money to finish it


----------



## CNGL

Suburbanist said:


> Are there any plans to close the small gap between AP-64 and AP-9 in Ferrol?


AP-64? There's no such thing, only toll-free A-64 in Asturias. Besides that, I'm sure you meant A*G*-64, also without tolls.


----------



## adevahi

ChrisZwolle said:


> Have there ever been plans to build a direct road link from Cádiz/Jerez de la Frontera to Huelva? Right now there is no road link across the Guadalquivir River until Sevilla. Apparently there are no local ferry routes either.


As said, it never will be done because of the protected area in Doñana.

Maybe, in 200 years, we can construct a direct 80km bridge from Sanlúcar de Barrameda to Huelva over the sea or a tunnel at 100m ¿below/under? the ground.


----------



## alserrod

And it was under project.

But they have to cross a long way over a national park and via Seville is not so longer.
So I guess we will never see it. In addition, people don't go exactly to Cadiz but to the area. This is, less distance if we consider Jerez, for instance


Ferries???

I am not sure... but I think that there are no ferries in Spain within the same coast. 
To be honest, the only exemption is a Barcelona-Genoa (which obviously both of them are in the Mediterranean). The rest... inner Balearic, inner Canary (here we can have some calls in the same island but they will be always a ferry between islands), Santander & Bilbao - England, eastern peninsula-Balearic islands, southern peninsula - Northern Africa (Morocco, Ceuta and Melilla). For a while they had a France-Melilla.
And some Barcelona-Sardegna and Genoa

Except the case of Barcelona-Genoa, all of them are different coasts.


----------



## CNGL

I remember taking a Livorno-Barcelona ferry. There is also a Civitavecchia-Barcelona one.


----------



## Suburbanist

Is there any river car ferry in Spain though?


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Is there any river car ferry in Spain though?



I think that only this one remains....










It is located in Miravet, Catalonia, over the Ebro river. You can reach this former Templer town and castle by road in the other side of the river or... crossing with a little ferry.

In the Ebro delta there was another one before they built a new bridge (in Sant Jaume d'Enveja) and upper Zaragoza, near Remolinos there is a cable ferry (quite single one) that has no use since a bridge was opened but still could be used.

But... think that the only river where big ships can sail is in the Guadalquivir up to Seville. The other cases, sometimes a reservoir or the own Ebro river for a sightseen tour. Nothing else.


----------



## verreme

There have been quite a few road openings in Spain these last weeks. This is the long-awaited BU-30:























































More crazy Spanish road signs for ya 










(source).

This stretch connects the new A-73 motorway with the rest of the network, and provides a motorway-standard bypass for traffic going to Santander via Burgos. They added a new carriageway to the existing road, plus a new interchange with A-73. It then continues The rest of Burgos ringroad (BU-30) is U/C and scheduled to open next year.

Another opening has been A-334 Albox bypass. This stretch connects two other ones, and in the opening ceremony _Junta de Andalucía_ also stated that works for the following stretch (the one connecting this isolated motorway with A-7) will start later this year. I couldn't find any pictures of this road. I found nothing of the new A-491 in Rota, either.

Little by little, road construction is picking up the pace again -let's hope that it's not just a matter of the elections being close and that the new government, whatever its color is, keeps up with it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> Little by little, road construction is picking up the pace again -let's hope that it's not just a matter of the elections being close and that the new government, whatever its color is, keeps up with it.


If you look at the past 25 years, you can see both PP and PSOE championed road construction in Spain. I went over many articles from the ABC archives about how each minister was building roads, regardless of party affiliation.

I'm guessing PSOE may be one of the best center-left parties for roads in Europe. In many countries the social democrates tend to follow the greens who vehemently oppose any improvement in road infrastructure, especially in the northern half of Europe, but also in France.

You can clearly see Spanish road construction picking up again. In 2011-2013 many road projects were frozen and contracts were canceled to save money. Right now the Spanish economy is growing quite fast and - as I've read - adding more jobs than with previous recoveries. Of course the road to economic recovery is long, but Spain has some good assets, including its large network of motorways that makes the economy more competitive.

Especially compared to Greece, which is heavily in debt but still doesn't have a full motorway between the two largest cities, with many large areas still unconnected to the motorway network. You constantly read how Greece spent huge amounts of money on infrastructure. But where is all this infrastructure? Greece's infrastructure is much less developed than Spain, Portugal or Italy. Also, Spain entered the late 2000s recession with a much lower public debt than other problematic countries.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> If you look at the past 25 years, you can see both PP and PSOE championed road construction in Spain. I went over many articles from the ABC archives about how each minister was building roads, regardless of party affiliation.
> 
> I'm guessing PSOE may be one of the best center-left parties for roads in Europe. In many countries the social democrates tend to follow the greens who vehemently oppose any improvement in road infrastructure, especially in the northern half of Europe, but also in France.
> 
> You can clearly see Spanish road construction picking up again. In 2011-2013 many road projects were frozen and contracts were canceled to save money. Right now the Spanish economy is growing quite fast and - as I've read - adding more jobs than with previous recoveries. Of course the road to economic recovery is long, but Spain has some good assets, including its large network of motorways that makes the economy more competitive.
> 
> Especially compared to Greece, which is heavily in debt but still doesn't have a full motorway between the two largest cities, with many large areas still unconnected to the motorway network. You constantly read how Greece spent huge amounts of money on infrastructure. But where is all this infrastructure? Greece's infrastructure is much less developed than Spain, Portugal or Italy. Also, Spain entered the late 2000s recession with a much lower public debt than other problematic countries.


Most political parties are indeed supporting major road projects and it's difficult for such a "cultural" thing to change radically even if the new government does (you can't just change _all_ politicians and lobbies). However, it is unclear if they will keep the taps open. It's not uncommon for new Spanish governments to stall large projects at the beginning of the term, only to hurry up when elections are near to be sure that it's them in the final picture. It's not hard to see that roads are opened and contracts are awarded in election years -and I guess the next government will follow a similar policy.

The comparison with Greece is a bit pointless -we are in a completely different situation, even if recession hit us hard and unemployment is sky-high.


----------



## Suburbanist

CNGL said:


> AP-64? There's no such thing, only toll-free A-64 in Asturias. Besides that, I'm sure you meant A*G*-64, also without tolls.


Yes, I meant a connection to close this gap


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-92 Tabernas - Almería*

I made a video of autovía A-92 from Tabernas to Almería, through the Tabernas Desert. This is one of the few places in Europe that look like the American Southwest.


----------



## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> This is one of the few places in Europe that look like the American Southwest.


Very. > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058461/locations and http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059578/locations


----------



## alserrod

in Villastar, close to N-330 near Teruel


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## Highway89

Spain is indeed quite peculiar in terms of landscape, thanks to which -in addition to cheap labour force- it was chosen for the filming of several Spaghetti Westerns. Two years ago I visited the filming location of The Good, the Bad and the Ugly near Salas de los Infantes, Burgos. It was quite a beautiful experience for a fan of such films. Here's a fan-made video (not mine) 





BTW, I've noticed that Google Street View has been updated recently. Now, the junction between the A-12 and the LO-20 is available: https://goo.gl/maps/GeuOS

However, it seems that some roads have become _unavailable _(?). For instance, this whole area that used to be available until today:


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> I made a video of autovía A-92 from Tabernas to Almería, through the Tabernas Desert. This is one of the few places in Europe that look like the American Southwest.


Indeed. The whole Spanish Southeast (more or less from Granada to Alicante) looks very much like the scenery of Western movies (well, as others said, several were shot there).

Actually when I visited California, Nevada and Arizona I was less impressed by the desert-like landscape than my travel companions, having spent most holidays during my childhood in my grandparent's village in the Northeast of Granada province. :lol:


----------



## sponge_bob

arctic_carlos said:


> Indeed. The whole Spanish Southeast (more or less from Granada to Alicante) looks very much like the scenery of Western movies (well, as others said, several were shot there).


I would say that all the really great Westerns, apart from John Fords westerns were made in the area around the Tabernas desert. 

Even by the time Sergio Leone had a choice of _any_ desert he wanted he still used Tabernas. > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064116/locations


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## ChrisZwolle

AP-41 traffic volumes :nuts: 500 vehicles per day!


----------



## Vignole

I guess actually these sections support lower volumes because this map is from 2013 when the average traffic volume for the full length of 50 km was 1.316 but in 2014 was 755!!

http://www.fomento.gob.es/BE/?nivel=2&orden=06000000


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-7 Alicante - Murcia*

Some photos of A-7 between Alicante and Murcia. The first section up to the AP-7 turnoff features 2x3 lanes. The rest has 2x2 lanes. 


A7-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-15 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-16 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-18 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-22 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-25 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-27 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-29 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-30 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-32 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-34 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-36 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-41 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-42 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-45 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-48 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-49 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## verreme

You were lucky with traffic -when I drive there, most of the time I can't do more than 100 km/h. Hopefully A-33 will change this situation.

A-7 between Alicante and Murcia is built to a higher standard than contemporany (1989) _autovías_ -most likely to _autopista_ standards. It doesn't use the alignment of N-340, and bends are barely noticeable when compared to the "esses" of first-generation _autovías_ as they bypass a village. South of Murcia it suddenly becomes a rubbish piece of motorway.


----------



## Peines

verreme said:


> You were lucky with traffic -when I drive there, most of the time I can't do more than 100 km/h. Hopefully A-33 will change this situation.
> 
> A-7 between Alicante and Murcia is built to a higher standard than contemporany (1989) _autovías_ -most likely to _autopista_ standards. It doesn't use the alignment of N-340, and bends are barely noticeable when compared to the "esses" of first-generation _autovías_ as they bypass a village. South of Murcia it suddenly becomes a rubbish piece of motorway.


It was signed as _Autopista_ from _El Campello Toll Plaza_ until_ Murcia A-30 interchange_, but someone downgraded it to _Autovia_ for some random reason some years ago, probably the same guy who misspell some names of villages along that section of A-7 :lol:

Even this stretch followed the old exit numbers in the original A-7 starting in _La Jonquera_.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> A-7 between Alicante and Murcia is built to a higher standard than contemporany (1989) _autovías_ -most likely to _autopista_ standards. It doesn't use the alignment of N-340, and bends are barely noticeable when compared to the "esses" of first-generation _autovías_ as they bypass a village. South of Murcia it suddenly becomes a rubbish piece of motorway.


I noticed that as well. Do you know if this section of A-7 was ever tolled? Some interchanges have been reconfigured over the past 10 years. Could there have been an open barrier tolling system? Though I did not saw any physical evidence of that.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ It was never tolled, although since its construction its name was A-7, something unusual in that time, when most toll-free sections along the Mediterranean coast retained the old name N-340 when they were converted into _autovías_. The section that was upgraded was only between Alicante and AP-7 turnoff, where it was upgraded to 2x3. Between AP-7 turnoff and Murcia only minor upgrading (e.g. new asphalt) has taken place.

As user Peines points out, A-7 between Alicante and Murcia was built as a toll-free _autopista_, a continuation of former A-7 (today's AP-7) between Valencia and Alicante, rather than as an _autovía_. During the 80s and 90s construction of _autovías_ consisted basically of adding a second carriageway to old national roads. Hence the bad alignment of A-7 (former N-340) between Murcia and Almería or of A-31 between Alicante and Albacete, and there are many more examples in radial _autovías_.

A-49 between Seville and Huelva is also a good example of toll-free _autopista_ built at that time, as well as Valencia by-pass.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The A-7 from Murcia to Almería didn't strike me as very substandard though. The frequency of exits is quite high, but otherwise it is very adequate. 

The only thing that really lacks in Spain are decent rest areas along autovías. A gas station alone is not sufficient for long-distance travel (especially for families).


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## Highway89

There is a number of Autopistas that were never tolled. Namely the A-66/A-8 between Gijón, Avilés and Oviedo in Asturias, the A-49 Sevilla-Huelva, A-8 Bilbao-Santander, A-67 Santander-Torrelavega or A-31 Honrubia-Albacete.

As opposed to the Autovías which were being built at that time, these had a completely new allignment.


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A-7 from Murcia to Almería didn't strike me as very substandard though. The frequency of exits is quite high, but otherwise it is very adequate.


Maybe I exaggerated a little bit. :lol:

It's not substandard, but you easily realise it's an old national road where a second carriageway was added and by-passes to avoid towns were built. As a consequence you find very often have exits to restaurants and gas stations located at the very edge of the highway. 

Likewise, the road bends before and after every town or village that needed to be avoided by the new highway, involving a reduction of speed (albeit not considerable, most times). You can easily see that in A-7 between Valencia and Xàtiva, although at least there the motorway was widened to 2x3.

In state-of-the-art motorways the layout of the old national road is usually kept for farm vehicles, cyclists and local traffic, and therefore there is no need to build exits in the main motorway so often. In the same way, motorways are not usually built so close to towns and there is thus no need to have tight curves entailing speed reductions.


----------



## Peines

ChrisZwolle said:


> The only thing that really lacks in Spain are decent rest areas along autovías. A gas station alone is not sufficient for long-distance travel (especially for families).


*Probably because we don't like rest areas as we can see in other countries*: here we prefer to stop in a rural bar-restaurant in a rural area (like Venta or Meson), or even in a small town outside the motorway, to make a rest.



















More quality, local products, homemade food, tradition, history, cheaper...

Anyway Mesones where the rest areas in the past times, when all was Roman Roads and horses.


----------



## gincan

So I was watching this documentary on sinkholes and 26 min into the video they show a huge one right next to A-23 north of Zaragoza, it is absolutely massive and right next to the road at this location 41°54'21.2"N 0°45'32.2"W.

It is shown in this video around 26 min in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzFbKw2cxFg

I guess they will have to rebuild this stretch of road in the future, wonder who was the jackass that green lit the routing in the first place knowing that the sinkhole existed :doh:


----------



## Highway89

Peines said:


> *Probably because we don't like rest areas as we can see in other countries*: here we prefer to stop in a rural bar-restaurant in a rural area (like Venta or Meson), or even in a small town outside the motorway, to make a rest.
> 
> More quality, local products, homemade food, tradition, history, cheaper...
> 
> Anyway Mesones where the rest areas in the past times, when all was Roman Roads and horses.


It's not that we don't like proper rest areas. We simply don't have a choice. It's a consequence of how our network developed.

Besides, this is not France or Germany with millions of foreign drivers on their motorways. Most tourists come to Spain by plane and stay in a resort or visit different cities in previously arranged tours. Traditionally, there has been little demand for such rest areas. But it's shocking that in a country that depends so much on tourism you can't still find enough rest areas with a European timetable or with someone who speaks English.


----------



## CNGL

gincan said:


> So I was watching this documentary on sinkholes and 26 min into the video they show a huge one right next to A-23 north of Zaragoza, it is absolutely massive and right next to the road at this location 41°54'21.2"N 0°45'32.2"W.
> 
> It is shown in this video around 26 min in.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzFbKw2cxFg
> 
> I guess they will have to rebuild this stretch of road in the future, wonder who was the jackass that green lit the routing in the first place knowing that the sinkhole existed :doh:


The Puilatos thing (I guessed it correctly), it even has swallowed a village. I drove there yet again yesterday. A-23 sinks there, they repair it and again sinks. And it has been rebuilt already twice.


ChrisZwolle said:


> The only thing that really lacks in Spain are decent rest areas along autovías. A gas station alone is not sufficient for long-distance travel (especially for families).


As Peines pointed out, we like to do some tourism in route. A relative had to do some Huesca-Toledo trips, and she always stopped at Santa Maria de Huerta (The very first town after finally leaving Aragon). As for me, if I have to drive to Madrid I have already selected the town where I would stop. That hono(u)r has fallen to Ariza, exactly halfway between Huesca and Madrid.


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## alserrod

If you have a time, search the road side area KM103 in the A-2 (they are not in the km point 103 but 101,8 though!!). You'll find a pretty nice area built a long time ago (rebuilt with a new building when 2x2), and you'll find a lot of facilities.

Spanish drivers prefer this kind of areas instead of the typical "fuel-sandwich-rest" which are in a lot of tolled motorways.


And as said... as many trucks in front of the restaurant, as better the area.


----------



## verreme

Actually one of the few "modern" rest areas in Spanish _autovías_ is on the A-7 stretch featured on Chris' latest pictures.


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## arctic_carlos

Highway89 said:


> It's not that we don't like proper rest areas. We simply don't have a choice. It's a consequence of how our network developed.


I strongly agree with you. Maybe people who usually make the same journeys have a good knowledge of the available restaurants and know where to stop and eat well. 

But when driving on a route for the first time you really miss the typical rest areas you see in France, Italy or Germany. Why? Because there are hundreds of old restaurants like the ones in the picture and you don't know at all which ones are good and which ones are bad. It's like a lottery. And when they're signed, you don't know if they're at the edge of the road or you need to drive 2 km until reaching them (the same thing happens with gas stations :crazy.

Last time I did Barcelona - Granada with my family, we chose A-7 + A-35 + N-344 + A-31 between Valencia and Alicante (instead of our traditional route, AP-7 along the coast) and we had a hard time trying to find a decent place to have a coffee and eat a sandwich around 11 am. We ended up in a horrible old-fashioned restaurant in La Font de la Figuera with an atmosphere and food which reminded us of Spain in the 70s. One member of my family even got sick. Unbelievably, the restaurant was full! :crazy:

Coming back to Barcelona, we chose AP-7 in order to eat more normal (albeit boring) food in La Safor rest area. It can lack the personality of those old restaurants but at least it's not a lottery and you know what you'll find beforehand. As a result it's quite normal to see lots of tourists using these rest areas on AP-7.


----------



## BlackC

I passed the AP - 1 yesterday and they were still working on the landslide. Looks like it will take some weeks or more before they finish and reopen it. 

The date of 15 July was absurd if you see how much work is left. 
Trucks are not deviated to the N1-A1, which causes trucks to climb at a super slow pace causing traffic jams.


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## alserrod

Seems to be a greater nightmare than they thought!!!


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## ChrisZwolle

Some more photos of A-7, west of Murcia. This stretch of road has a lot of service roads to nowhere, and the signs have various typefaces.


A7-50 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-51 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-53 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-55 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-57 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-59 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-60 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-64 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-67 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-69 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-72 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-75 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-76 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-79 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-81 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-85 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-89 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## CNGL

It seems they have extended the kmposting of the Vilavella-Sagunto section all the way down A-7. It will still run into four digits in Malaga province anyway. However, the section in Tarragona province still uses the N-340 kmposts, and thus exit numbers in the 1100s.

Fun fact: Had an exit existed at RM-D22 just South of Totana, it would have retained its exit number (614 in both N-340 and new A-7 systems).


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## CNGL

In a few hours I'll be passing through the Ventamillo gorge by bus. Again. I'm leaving in a hour. I hope we don't have to cross with a truck like last time.


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## ukraroad

:nuts::nuts::nuts::wtf: What the heck so high-standart roads like real motorways have 100 km/h speed while other countries 140 on the same quality ones?


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## alserrod

ukraroad said:


> :nuts::nuts::nuts::wtf: What the heck so high-standart roads like real motorways have 100 km/h speed while other countries 140 on the same quality ones?


Standard maximum speed is 120 km/h for any motorway, highway or so

It is possible (even in tolled motorways) to find streches with lowest maximum speed, mainly because rocky areas, slides or so.

In a dual carriageway 2x2 with no shoulders and a lot of exits it is often to find 100 km/h but they are used to be near main cities. Long distance motorways will have 120.


120 km/h means that radars will allow 130 km/h and no more. 131 km/h means a 100 EUR fine


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-7 Alhama de Murcia - Lorca*

Some photos of A-7 between Alhama de Murcia and Lorca. Lorca is known for the 2011 earthquake. The magnitude was moderate, at 5.1, but the damage was extensive due to the shallowness of the quake.

The landscape becomes more interesting near Lorca.


A7-92 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-96 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-98 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-100 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-102 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-105 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-107 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-110 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-111 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-112 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-113 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-114 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-117 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-118 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

CNGL said:


> It seems they have extended the kmposting of the Vilavella-Sagunto section all the way down A-7.


Yes, I checked my photos and all exits of A-7 down to the Andalusia border have been renumbered. The numbering in Andalusia is unchanged.


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## ukraroad

Yeah, looks as if a dual carriageway was built somewhere in Grand Erg Occidental in Algeria. Pretty beautiful.


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## alserrod

Which dual carriageway are you talking about?


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## ChrisZwolle

*AL-1102, Almería, Andalucía*

A viewing point along road AL-1102 in Almería province, near Sorbas.


Sorbas-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Sorbas-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Sorbas-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through AP-4 , from El Puerto de Santa María to Sevilla 13.07.2015 Timelapse x4
http://youtu.be/AP98-vWY1Dw


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through A-49, from Castilleja de la Cuesta to Bollullos de la Mitación (Spain) 22.07.2015 Timelapse x4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tZ2m6N-TQw&index=55&list=PLo1lykNWuuPTkZxXI9TanTc51k0-WOf8r


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## ChrisZwolle

*CV-40 Xàtiva - Alcoi*

The 'secret' inland route from Valencia to Alicante, CV-40 which should be numbered as A-7 if you ask me


----------



## adevahi

Ale92Milano_SpA said:


> Driving through A-49, from Castilleja de la Cuesta to Bollullos de la Mitación (Spain) 22.07.2015 Timelapse x4
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tZ2m6N-TQw&index=55&list=PLo1lykNWuuPTkZxXI9TanTc51k0-WOf8r


The pedestrian bridge in 0:37 is really new, maybe it opened in 2014 but I think it was in this 2015.

The bridges between 0:54 and 0:57 are the ones for SE-40, and were done this april. They aren't still opened and they will probably not be until 2016 or 2017. This new highway will really change the movility of Sevilla, most of the traffic jams you maybe had between Sevilla and Castilleja will disappear (except in summer weekends...).

Finally, all the route you do from 0:20 until 1:25 was two-lane highway 5 years ago, now it is 3 lanes


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## slickman

One should not even smell it . I wonder how the plant can survive without water.


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## alserrod

slickman said:


> One should not even smell it . I wonder how the plant can survive without water.


Since several decades minds have changed and decoration (not only in roads but in general) is focused in local plants. There are someones quite cool and without maintenance. It is enough to ask for local plants.

A long time ago I remember trying to set grass everywhere. In Spain it is a waste of time. A lot of water and never will be OK





g.spinoza said:


> They're poison if you eat them... I don't think you stop in the middle of the motorway to eat some leaves on a tree...



Some years ago some teens dead due to a sort of "coffee" done with a poison plant. It was absolutely unknown till then and I got notice that besides my home I had one of that plant...

Obviously not poison if you do not eat (or drink) it


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## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> They're poison if you eat them... I don't think you stop in the middle of the motorway to eat some leaves on a tree...


Well, you'll never know... People do drive their cars onto railroads or into subway tunnels because their GPS says so. People do pretty stupid stuff.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N-340a Tabernas Desert*

Some scenes of N-340a in the Tabernas Desert.


Tabernas-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Tabernas-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Tabernas-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


Tabernas-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


Tabernas-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


Tabernas-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ajch

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A-2 / A-15 interchange at Medinaceli will be in augurated this afternoon.


A very important inaguration. Now all the provincial capitals are connected to the network (in the mainland)


----------



## jdb.2

ChrisZwolle said:


> Tabernas-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


Funny, imagine some other flags and this scene looks very much like a Moroccan route nationale. :lol:


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## GYN1997

i used to lurk around before signing up on this forum, i like infrastructure stuff and maps
i have a 1992 Michelin Europe road atlas my parents gave me and I like to compare how things were then and now, Spain is the country with most changes 

are all roads numbered with AP prefix tolled?
if a road with tolls became free, would it get an A prefix?


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## alserrod

Strongly yes.

Besides my city, AP-68 had 3,5 km free and was set as A-68 after 2004


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## adevahi

GYN1997 said:


> i used to lurk around before signing up on this forum, i like infrastructure stuff and maps
> i have a 1992 Michelin Europe road atlas my parents gave me and I like to compare how things were then and now, Spain is the country with most changes
> 
> are all roads numbered with AP prefix tolled?
> if a road with tolls became free, would it get an A prefix?


*AP*-> *A*utopista de *P*eaje

Autopista~Highway
Peaje=Tolled


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## ChrisZwolle

adevahi said:


> Autopista~Highway


A motorway would be a better translation. Autopista is a very restrictive word to which it applies, while highway (carretera) is very general and can mean any type of public road, including secondary two-lane roads. 

Although autopistas are generally toll roads, they do have some toll-free sections. For instance the Barcelona bypass is untolled but numbered AP-7. In addition, not all toll roads are numbered with the AP-prefix. In particular around Barcelona there are a lot of tolled motorways with a C-number.


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## alserrod

The nightmare of C-...

All roads and motorways depending of Catalonian government are C-XX (main network) and never mind if it is a single road, a motorway or a tolled motorway. If motorway... signs in blue. If tolled, additional toll sign. That's all.

C-32 will be tolled in the tunnel area southern Barcelona, free in the Sitges by-pass and tolled again till AP-7. but... you will always have clear if you have to pay or you have another road to avoid the toll.

M-12 and R-X in the surroundings of Madrid are also tolled, Galician network AG-XX can be also tolled and... to my best knowledge, Basque country tolled motorways are AP-XX
In Navarra you have only the AP-15. Therefore, no questions about.

And in other sites... I do not remember any motorway even managed by regional governments, even by central government but as local motorway, with a different name (not AP-XX)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

alserrod said:


> If motorway... signs in blue.


I found this one of the downsides of the Spanish signage and numbering system. The road number is no clear indication of the road standard, as regional autovías can have just about any road number prefix (C, CV, V, EX, B, CM, CL, AG, SE, M, etc.)

But the signage is not clear either. All exit signs are blue, except the final sign at the off ramp. So the only way to tell if an intersecting road is a motorway is if the very last sign is blue or white.


----------



## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> I found this one of the downsides of the Spanish signage and numbering system. The road number is no clear indication of the road standard, as regional autovías can have just about any road number prefix (C, CV, V, EX, B, CM, CL, AG, SE, M, etc.)


And while Catalunya colors by quality - eg C16 has red 'shields' (for want of a better term) on the non-motorway sections and blue ones for the autovia/autopista sections - many of the other communities don't.

Andalucia colours by importance and has orange shields on the major non-national routes (which may or may not be autovia at that point, though all of them seem planned to be autovia in their entirety), but there are also autovia with green signs, denoting secondary non-national roads. (as an aside, is there any reason why the A92 isn't a national route? Or at least why isn't it signed with blue shields)

You also have some low quality national roads signed with blue signs (eg A7 in places along the Andalucian coast where AP7 bypasses the settlements and A7 runs along the coast with roundabouts, and some of the city-prefixed national autovia) and some high quality non-national routes with orange, or even green, signs.

Of course, other countries (eg France with Voie Express D roads and the A660) have similar.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I found this one of the downsides of the Spanish signage and numbering system. The road number is no clear indication of the road standard, as regional autovías can have just about any road number prefix (C, CV, V, EX, B, CM, CL, AG, SE, M, etc.)
> 
> But the signage is not clear either. All exit signs are blue, except the final sign at the off ramp. So the only way to tell if an intersecting road is a motorway is if the very last sign is blue or white.


As a general rule:


Motorways managed by the State will always have A or AP letters with the exemptions of:

- R-X near Madrid
- and any letter for local motorways (rings or so). For instance, the ring-motorway in my city is the Z-40

All R-X are tolled and only M-12 (access to Madrid airport) is tolled


In case of a motorway managed by a regional government they will use their own system. EX in Extremadura, C in Catalona, A in Andalucia, AS in Asturias, ARA-A- in Aragón (for 5,5 km only), M for Madrid

Almost all of them are non-tolled.... but in Galicia and Catalonia you will find them tolled or untolled.


----------



## CNGL

sotonsi said:


> And while Catalunya colors by quality - eg C16 has red 'shields' (for want of a better term) on the non-motorway sections [...]


Which should be orange anyway, red should be only used on national roads. I'd like to see Catalonia not only stripped of its autonomy because of that independentist movement, but also forced to change all its signs to the Spanish standard. Now they use French style signage.


----------



## verreme

CNGL said:


> Which should be orange anyway, red should be only used on national roads. I'd like to see Catalonia not only stripped of its autonomy because of that independentist movement, but also forced to change all its signs to the Spanish standard. Now they use French style signage.


There are no French signs in Catalonia. It's true that there's a standard for directional signage that's a bit different from the Spanish one, but the font remains the same, and the signs still look Spanish. The most "French" signage thing I've seen in Catalonia are some speed limit signs in the Lleida Pyrenees -but they're not the norm. I guess that someone ordered a bunch of them some day for some reason, but they will eventually be replaced by "proper" ones since I haven't seen more.

There are some other oddities regarding roads when it comes to regional authorities -Gipuzkoa province uses dashed side lane markings, like France, and Galicia has a road type of its own (_corredor_, which is the former _vía rápida_, a concept that disappeared from our driving code in 2001 and that had its own -green- signage, which Galicia retains). As for the numbering system, it's a complete mess. Too many road categories, too many shields and _way_ too many prefixes. Even the design of kilometer posts changes from one region to another. You end up memorizing road numbers like a mantra, but you don't know their meaning. There are plenty of simpler road numbering systems around (Germany, France, the UK, Italy, to name a few); we should just do what our neighbors do.


----------



## alserrod

Yeah.... there are some "French signs" in Catalonia and part of Aragón.

Look at N-230 from Sopeira till the border. The signs are French


----------



## GYN1997

what was a via rapida exactly?


----------



## VITORIA MAN

http://videalab.udc.es/files/fichas/val_minor/min2.jpg
this is a via rapida


----------



## alserrod

GYN1997 said:


> what was a via rapida exactly?


Via rapida doesn't longer exist since several years ago

It was a sort of 1x1 with motorway standards but only 1x1. All crosses as in a motorway (bridges, tunnels and so...)

Only C-25 in Catalonia was a "long" via rapida. 
I remember first track of a motorway bypass that was pointed as via rapida (it was, indeed, it was just first 1x1 prior to a 2x2)


----------



## VITORIA MAN

french style in catalonia ? i dont think so








http://www.calagogo.es/uploads/indicadorpda.gif








http://fotos.subefotos.com/c4067b549addf9bf1facb740afbaf7f2o.jpg








http://www.roadsafetyfoundation.org/media/8394/autoroute-news.jpg


----------



## alserrod

No. They have their own system... in some thread we can download a 70ish pages document about it


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Galicia has several vías rápidas and is still constructing new ones.


----------



## CNGL

Now I see this...








http://fotos.subefotos.com/c4067b549addf9bf1facb740afbaf7f2o.jpg

This is what stands now:

A7-45 by European Roads, on Flickr

Another example of re-kmposting is near me: A-23 North of Zaragoza originally had N-330 kmposts (and thus exit numbers in the 500s), but this was changed in 2008 to match those South of Zaragoza.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Galicia has several vías rápidas and is still constructing new ones.


Former Via Rapida remains with the same conditions indeed.

But there is no longer signals for them (they had green signals instead of blue for motorways or white for roads)


----------



## verreme

alserrod said:


> Former Via Rapida remains with the same conditions indeed.
> 
> But there is no longer signals for them (they had green signals instead of blue for motorways or white for roads)


No. They still have green signage (in Galicia). And new _vías rápidas_ are still being built with these signs (like "Vía Ártabra" in A Coruña).

Some other older _vías rápidas_ in other parts of Spain have still green signage, like the spurs of C-25 in Manresa, Vic and Girona. But I guess these are going to be gradually phased out.


----------



## arctic_carlos

New _vías rápidas_ in Catalonia (e.g. C-37 + C-15 between Manresa and Vilafranca del Penedès or C-37 between Vic and Olot) have conventional road signs, though.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A little off the beaten path video. The road up to Peña de Francia (1727 m) in southern Salamanca province.

I did not originally plan to go there, I was planning on staying two nights in Portugal but it was very hot there so I decided to go to some higher mountains for refreshment. I was planning to follow A-66 north anyway, so I was browsing on my Michelin atlas to see if there were any interesting areas not too far away. I found this. I would have never found this with a GPS.


----------



## Highway89

The draft of the 2016 burget for the Spanish central government has been announced today.

Regarding road infrastructure, the main objectives can be read (in Spanish) here:
-New road infrastructure: http://www.sepg.pap.minhap.gob.es/P...14/3/2/11/N_16_A_R_31_117_1_2_3_1453B_C_1.PDF
-Road maintenance: http://www.sepg.pap.minhap.gob.es/P...14/3/2/12/N_16_A_R_31_117_1_2_3_1453C_C_1.PDF

I made a list of the main road works that are expected to begin/continue/finish from this point to the end of the next year. The number next to the stretch is the quantity in Millions of Euros. "Peaje en sombra" means shadow toll.

It seems that finally the construction of the tunnels under the Guadalquivir river south of Sevilla will start next year. There are 32.6 Millions budgeted for the eastbound tunnels and 9.7 for the westbound ones.


A-2: 14.62 en total
A-2 Maçanet de la Selva-Sils 3.39

A-4:
A-4 Dos Hermanas-Los Palacios y Villafranca 9.3

A-7:
A-7 Carchuna-Castell de Ferro 54.31
(N-340) Peñíscola-Benicarló-Vinaroz 7.9

A-8:
A-8 La Encina-Torrelavega 28.52
A-8 Solares-La Encina 39.15

A-11: 44.808 en total
A-11 La Mallona-Venta Nueva 3.37
A-11 Venta Nueva-Santiuste 6.96
A-11 Santiuste-Burgo de Osma 6.55
A-11 Burgo de Osma-San Esteban de Gormaz 8.54
A-11 San Esteban de Gormaz-Langa de Duero 7.51
A-11 Langa de Duero-Aranda de Duero 7.36

A-12:
A-12/LO-20 conexión AP-68 18.89
A-12 Santo Domingo de la Calzada-Villamayor del Río 7
A-12 Ibeas de Juarros-Burgos con peaje en sombra

A-14:
A-14 Lleida-Roselló (A-2) 17.52

A-21:
A-21 Jaca-Santa Cilia 7.2
A-21 A-1601-Sigüés 4.73

A-23:
A-23 Congosto de Isuela-Arguís con peaje en sombra
A-23 Monrepós-Caldearenas 10.87
A-23 Caldearenas-Lanave 40.5

A-27:
A-27 El Morell-Valls 7.65
A-27 Variante de Valls 3.0
A-27 Variante de Valls-Montblanc 2.93

A-32:
A-32 Úbeda-Torreperogil 7.86
A-32 Torreperogil - Villacarrillo (15 km) 14.968
A-32 Villacarrillo - Villanueva del Arzobispo (19 km): 20.97
A-32 Circunvalación Sur de Albacete 25.108

A-33: 32.09 en total
A-33 A-31-A-35 5.47
A-33 Jumilla-Yecla 26.12

A-38:
(N-332) Variante de Sueca Tramo II Cullera y Favara 8.02

A-44 y GR-43:
A-44 Albolote-Santa Fe 10.97
A-44 Santa Fe-Las Gabias 18.48
A-44 Las Gabias-Alhendín 17.582
GR-43 Pinos Puente-Atarfe 7.12

A-52:
A-52 Vigo-Porriño 6
A-52 Enlace Puzo-Lira 6.265

A-54: 69.67 en total
A-54 Lavacolla-Arzúa 23.94
A-54 Arzúa-Melide 12.03
A-54 Melide-Palas de Rei 15.03

A-56:
A-56 San Martiño-Barrela 6.2
A-56 Eirasvedras-Quintela 3.7

A-57 Circunvalación de Pontevedra:
A-57 A Ermida-Pilarteiros 5.203
A-57 Vilaboa-A Ermida 20.67

A-60:
Santas Martas-León 6.09

A-62:
A-62 Fuentes de Oñoro-Portugal 11.72

A-63:
A-63 Cornellana-Salas 6.86
A-63 Salas-La Espina 7.417
A-63 Dóriga-Cornellana 6.91

A-67:
A-67 Santander-Torrelavega 6.513

A-68:
A-68 Figueruelas-Gallur 3
A-68 Gallur-Mallén 4.5

A-73:
A-73 Bascones de Valdivia-Aguilar de Campoo 5.1

SE-40:
SE-40 Alcalá de Guadaíra-Dos Hermanas 7.67
SE-40 Dos Hermanas-Coria del Río túneles sur 32.612
SE-40 Dos Hermanas-Coria del Río túneles norte 9.72
SE-40 Coria del Río-Almensilla 26.27
SE-40 Almensilla-Espartinas 5.04

Zona Barcelona:
B-40 Olesa de Montserrat-Viladecavalls 12.07
B-24 Variante de Vallirana 18
Acceso al Puerto de Barcelona desde el Cinturón Litoral 10.08


Otras:
BU-30 Villalbilla-Quintanadueñas 12.75
Nuevo Acceso Cádiz 56.33
MU-30 Autovía del Reguerón 10.08


----------



## verreme

This means we'll also be getting a lot of motorway openings along 2016 and 2017. As usual, there are some "ghost" provisions that will not be used (i.e. the €3 million for A-27 between Valls and Montblanc, which should include a tunnel that noone wants to build due to geological risks). But it's very good news overall. This leaves almost no U/C motorway unattended.


----------



## verreme

When I said that the next general elections in Spain are going to be a serious game changer when it comes to road infrastructure, I wasn't joking. Yes both dominating political parties (PP and PSOE) have always favored major road projects, but the political landscape in Spain is changing radically due to new coalitions, which have mostly absorbed the Greens, overthrowing the traditional parties and winning in _a lot_ of cities and towns in the last local elections. This means that the Greens are going to be in many governments, and that is a serious threat to new roads and motorways. Here's one of the first signs of it:

http://www.ara.cat/societat/Quart-Cinturo-Sabadell-Cap-Catalunya_0_1405659477.html

(Full text is available here. I'm too lazy to translate the whole thing).

The socialist-ruled city of Sabadell had always backed "Quart Cinturó" (B-40), a motorway that would go from Martorell to Mataró through Terrassa, Sabadell and Granollers, and urban planning reflects this mentality -the right-of-way, of this motorway proposed in the 1970s, has always been clear. However, this may be going to change since the new local government in charge includes a long-time activist against the motorway (who will be mayor in 2017 as the agreement reached by the coalition says). 

As usual, his point oversimplifies the purpose of the project: it's not just another motorway between Terrassa and Sabadell, it's a road that will connect many other towns around both cities (such as Matadepera or Castellar del Vallès) that now have difficult access to the existing motorways and now decent connections between each others. If they manage to stop B-40 (which is as close as waiting for Fomento to tender the project), other existing road projects in the area will be rendered useless, i.e. C-58c, which needs B-40 to fulfil the whole of its purpose (connecting roads radiating from Sabadell), or the existing stretches of B-40. And drivers going to the big industrial areas in Castellar del Vallès, for example, will still have to cross Sabadell and bear with the heavy congestion in Gran Via, the city's urban expressway (and I wonder how long will it last, as urban expressways are the antichrist of the Greens). The alternate mesures he's proposing (a "possible" additional lane in C-58) will do nothing to ease traffic North of Sabadell, an area that has grown a lot in the last 25 years.

This is one of the dangers of postponing controversial road projects year after year -some day, some local opposition will gather enough momentum to cancel it. I just hope that the new central Government, whatever color it is, manages to reach an agreement with the local one and B-40 sees the light -it's by far the most needed road project in Barcelona metro area.


----------



## alserrod

A-23 Caldearenas-Lanave may be 4,5 nearer than 40,5


----------



## Highway89

What do you mean? It says 40.5 million


----------



## alserrod

Ok I get it

I guess it includes the longest tunnel (3 km or so) in this case


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-7 Vera - Almería*

The last photos of A-7 to Almería, between Vera and Almería.


A7-177 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-179 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-183 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-188 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-192 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-194 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-196 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-198 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-200 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-203 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-207 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-211 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-213 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-214 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-216 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-218 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-219 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-222 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-223 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-225 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-228 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-230 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-232 by European Roads, on Flickr


A7-234 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## GYN1997

what determines the background color of a snippet indicating a road
when is yellow and when is red used?

why the Autovia 7 is signed over a blue snippet but Autovia 92 over a yellow snippet?


----------



## sponge_bob

A92 is Andalucia Road 92 ( it is a 'state' or 'community' motorway not a national motorway) and A7 is a national motorway.

To confuse people more both are present in Andalucia. There are more A ( Andalucia) Motorways in Andalucia than A ( National Spanish) motorways as well.  

To _really_ confuse people B roads are in Barcelona and C roads are in Catalonia surrounding Barcelona. Many of these B and C Roads are motorways. !!!

To _mega confuse_ people there are no B or or C road Motorways in Andalucia because Andalucia starts with A. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving from Castilleja de la Cuesta to Sanlúcar la Mayor (Spain) 4.08.2015 Timelapse x4
Through A-49


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## GYN1997

sponge_bob said:


> A92 is Andalucia Road 92 ( it is a 'state' or 'community' motorway not a national motorway) and A7 is a national motorway.
> 
> To confuse people more both are present in Andalucia. There are more A ( Andalucia) Motorways in Andalucia than A ( National Spanish) motorways as well.
> 
> To _really_ confuse people B roads are in Barcelona and C roads are in Catalonia surrounding Barcelona. Many of these B and C Roads are motorways. !!!
> 
> To _mega confuse_ people there are no B or or C road Motorways in Andalucia because Andalucia starts with A.
> 
> Hope this helps.


how this is confusing hno:
are there " A " roads in Aragón that are not Autovia?
why not adopt a two-letter system then do establish the difference between provincial roads and national roads?


----------



## alserrod

Yes but well-known.

A-2, A-21, A-22, A-23, A-68


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## alserrod

alserrod said:


> Yes but well-known.
> 
> A-2, A-21, A-22, A-23, A-68


You will never consider them as a local road. People know them quite well


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## Highway89

Destinations via Autovías and Autopistas are signed with a blue background. Like here:



ChrisZwolle said:


> A7-234 by European Roads, on Flickr


In the picture above it is clear which destinations can be reached via a motorway (blue background) and which ones can't (white background).

Prefixes (A, B, C, M, N, LO, LR...) and the colour of the "box" in which the road number is, mean nothing _per se_ as regards the type of road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*AP-7 Barcelona*

A video of AP-7 through the Barcelona metropolitan area. This segment is untolled. It serves through traffic and the northern suburbs.


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving from Sanlúcar la Mayor to Tomares (Spain) 4.08.2015 Timelapse x4

Through A-49


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## ChrisZwolle

*N-341 + AL-5107 Carboneras*

Some photos of N-341 (first two) and AL-5107 (the rest) near Carboneras, Almería province. This is a spectacular coastal road with almost no traffic.


N341 Carboneras-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N341 Carboneras-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


AL-5107-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


AL-5107-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


AL-5107-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


AL-5107-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


AL-5107-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


AL-5107-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


AL-5107-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


AL-5107-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


AL-5107-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


AL-5107-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## definitivo

^^

...this reminds me of the old Adriatic magistrale ( ex YU term  )...


----------



## gincan

The history behind that hotel is so stupid, the environ (mentals) have been fighting for years wasting huge amounts of money trying to stop the construction, when they finally managed to halt the construction the hotel was almost already built.

So now you have a finished building (exterior) without use and the constructor has gone bust so it will not be torn dow but instead sit there for ever as a monument to the insanity of the Spanish bureaucracy. 

What they should do in my opinion is to finish the hotel and charge the visitors an environmetal tax to fund conservation, that way assuming 5-10 thousand visitors a year to the hotel they would get millions every year (50-100 euros per visitor a night, it is a luxury hotel so no problem) to finance conservation efforts.


----------



## Sunfuns

Glad to see that not every stretch of Spanish Mediterranean coastline is crazily overbuilt like Costa del Sol I happened to drive through earlier this year.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Costa del Sol is pretty crazy. Developments stretch out along nearly the entire coast from Nerja to Gibraltar. 

The Catalonian coast is also pretty developed, though mostly with low-rise vacation parks and not endless rows of apartment buildings. I haven't been to Benidorm, but that seems out of place.


----------



## Sunfuns

In contrast I found the Spanish Atlantic coast much nicer. We stayed in a village called Los Canos de Meca just on the edge of a national park. Definitely much more to my liking than Estepona where we also happened to stay one night.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Atlantic coast is more rainy and not suitable as a destination for snowbirds, so it's not nearly as developed. I've driven A-8 from Gijón all the way to the French border but it was raining nearly the entire time, with a cloud base at 200 m, so I couldn't see much of the scenery. I want to go back one day.


----------



## Sunfuns

I forgot to mention that I meant the Southern Atlantic coast between Portuguese border and Gibraltar. The Northern one is pretty in places as well, but as you correctly note not suitable for beach holidays.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A factor may be the sea water temperatures. They are substantially lower on the Atlantic coast. I remember my colleague going to Algarve and was disappointed about the cold swimming.


----------



## alserrod

Sunfuns said:


> I forgot to mention that I meant the Southern Atlantic coast between Portuguese border and Gibraltar. The Northern one is pretty in places as well, but as you correctly note not suitable for beach holidays.


Off topic. I was there for a week last year and...sometimes walking around the sea including the northern point in Spain (Peñas Cape) but never swam. 
We made several activities inside. Visited cities and a little of coast. No rain but no baths at all.

(but it is a cool destination for holidays)


----------



## CNGL

alserrod said:


> [T]he northern[most] point in Spain (Peñas Cape)


No, the Northernmost point in Spain is Estaca de Bares point. I was there 5 years ago.


----------



## alserrod

Sure? I glanced coordenates


----------



## Aokromes

Estacas: 43°47′25″N 7°41′16″O
Peñas: 43°39′02″N 5°51′00″O


----------



## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Catalonian coast is also pretty developed, though mostly with low-rise vacation parks and not endless rows of apartment buildings. I haven't been to Benidorm, but that seems out of place.


Mallorca and Ibiza are very like Catalonia. Benidorm is a small 1960/70s skyscraper city near and north of Alicante airport. Benidorm is arguably _the original_ Skyscraper City in Europe and the rest of the coast north and south of there was only really developed after 1980 and as low rise developments...eg Torrevieja just south of Alicante Airport. 

Developments south of Alicante rely _very_ much on water supplied from as far inland as between Albacete and Madrid and on water networks constructed in stages since the 1940s. 

From Alicante down to Almeria is basically a desert ...some of it is officially a desert. The Costa del Sol has its own water supply from the Sierra Nevada however.


----------



## g.spinoza

The only time I went to the seaside in Spain I literally run screaming away from the Costa del Sol and settled near Cabo Trafalgar. Real paradise.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> The only time I went to the seaside in Spain I literally run screaming away from the Costa del Sol and settled near Cabo Trafalgar. Real paradise.


Unfortunately a very high proportion of the east / south coast between France and Algeciras is densely developed. Some stretches of the coast in the Valencian Community are less developed, but almost all coastal towns have developed tourist accommodations. The north coast is much less developed, with a lot of vintage fishing towns. In stayed in Zarautz, few coastal areas are flat enough for extensive development. San Sebastian has only like 2 or 3 km worth of beach.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-92 Tabernas Desert*

Some photos of A-92 through the Tabernas Desert, southbound to the A-7 interchange near Almería.


A-92 Tabernas-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-11 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-12 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-13 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-14 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-15 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-92 Tabernas-16 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Sunfuns

g.spinoza said:


> The only time I went to the seaside in Spain I literally run screaming away from the Costa del Sol and *settled near Cabo Trafalgar. Real paradise.*


That was my favourite place on the Spanish coast as well.


----------



## GYN1997

are there always official signs when a highway crosses a Spanish provincial border?


----------



## adevahi

GYN1997 said:


> are there always official signs when a highway crosses a Spanish provincial border?


Yes, I suppose that maybe there are some comarcal roads with very low quantity traffic which don't have the sign, but in general all have it.


----------



## alserrod

GYN1997 said:


> are there always official signs when a highway crosses a Spanish provincial border?


Yes 

And by law (considering official signs to be set on roads). Region changes too. There are 47 provinces and 15 regions in mainland (not islands). Sometime you can drive for a long time within the same province and region, sometime the same road shifts several times from one to other province.

I have found some examples of province/region missing but I only know three cases in main routes or motorways. Two of them due to stretch in a region is quite small to overcrowd road with signals


----------



## adevahi

alserrod said:


> Yes
> 
> And by law (considering official signs to be set on roads). Region changes too. There are 47 provinces and 15 regions in mainland (not islands). Sometime you can drive for a long time within the same province and region, sometime the same road shifts several times from one to other province.
> 
> I have found some examples of province/region missing but *I only know three cases in main routes or motorways*. Two of them due to stretch in a region is quite small to overcrowd road with signals


Please, tell us.

When I ride on bycicle, I use to see always that signs, even in "nearly not used" highways


----------



## GYN1997

what is the most expensive toll highway in Spain?


----------



## Mundial

According to this article it must be the Túnel de Soller on Mallorca. With a charge of €1,67/km it has the highest charge/km.


----------



## alserrod

adevahi said:


> Please, tell us.
> 
> When I ride on bycicle, I use to see always that signs, even in "nearly not used" highways


AP68 from AP1 to Logroño crosses for a while Castilla y Leon and not pointed.

N113 between La Rioja and Navarra crosses Aragon for 20 metres or so and not pointed (there is a stone besides the road that makes as evidence). The same road enters again in Aragon in Valverde village and not pointed.

A22 has Catalonia signs but not Aragon ones. There is a dispute about the owner of 100m or so.....

These are main routes (one road, one motorway and one tolled motorway) I know. 

For local roads maybe the longest way is from Uncastillo to Sos. It enters in a enclave from Navarra and not pointed for more than 5 km


----------



## KRX_69

In October, this will be my trip :yes:


----------



## alserrod

Which one?


----------



## KRX_69

Im going from portuguese border in Ayamonte to Almeria in one day.


----------



## alserrod

Enjoy them.

I guess that through the coasr but how many coast km?. Will you start in Cadiz bay?


----------



## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> AP68 from AP1 to Logroño crosses for a while Castilla y Leon and not pointed. N113 between La Rioja and Navarra crosses Aragon for 20 metres or so and not pointed (there is a stone besides the road that makes as evidence). The same road enters again in Aragon in Valverde village and not pointed. A22 has Catalonia signs but not Aragon ones. There is a dispute about the owner of 100m or so..... These are main routes (one road, one motorway and one tolled motorway) I know. For local roads maybe the longest way is from Uncastillo to Sos. It enters in a enclave from Navarra and not pointed for more than 5 km


In C-32 (Catalan government motorway) the border between the provinces of Barcelona and Tarragona is not signed, there are signs just saying the change of comarca (county), from Garraf to Baix Penedès, but no indication of the change of province.


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## alserrod

Not only in that road but in the whole Catalonian network, provinces are not signed but shires
If you know the area you will notice that all provinces bounds fit with shares (with one exemption)

In Aragon shires are also signed in regional network


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving from Jerez de la Frontera to Arcos de la Frontera (Spain) 8.08.2015 Timelapse x4


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## Ni3lS

Drove this week in Spain for the first time in many years. Forgot how messy the signage is, I mean it's overkill. At one point I saw 4 yield signs on a single lane merging into the highway. The amount of signs is just crazy and confusing at times, especially around larger cities. 

Was impressed by the state of the roads though, the network is great and has very low traffic volumes (at least in the North around Pamplona).


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## ChrisZwolle

*Cabo de Gata*

Some scenes from Cabo de Gata (east of Almería).

Many roads in Google Earth are labelled incorrectly. Sometimes they are different from Google Maps as well.

1. AL-4200 along the coast.

Cabo de Gata-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. North of San José.

Cabo de Gata-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. Along AL-4200.

Cabo de Gata-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

Cabo de Gata-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

Cabo de Gata-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. The AL-3106 to Las Negras.

Cabo de Gata-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. Las Negras.

Cabo de Gata-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Highway89

KRX_69 said:


> In October, this will be my trip :yes:


Before planning your trip, keep in mind that the 12th of October and the 1st of November are national holidays in Spain. Both days, along with the 9th and the 30th (of October) will likely be some of the worst regarding traffic conditions. The 1st of November will be Sunday anyway, but still many people will travel to _pay a visit_ to their dead relatives.


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## alserrod

After 13th October traffic will be quite low indeed


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-92*

Continuing down A-92, west through Almería province.


A92-33 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-35 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-38 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-39 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-42 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-43 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-47 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-49 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-52 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-54 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-57 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-61 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-62 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-63 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-67 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-68 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-70 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Attus

^^Not quite a heavy traffic.


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## ChrisZwolle

That's right, this is the least used segment of A-92 with around 9,500 vehicles per day. Traffic splits at Guadix, a slightly higher volume uses A-92N towards Lorca / Alicante with 12,000 vehicles per day.


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## CNGL

I like how many towns with funny names are along that strecht of A-92: Alcubillas (same name as a town in Ciudad Real province), Nacimiento (literally 'birth'), Ocaña (again, namesake of a known crossroads in Toledo province), Abla (literally 'to remove any part from the body'), Dólar (Dollar, not pictured), La Calahorra (Calahorra is a town in La Rioja, also not pictured).


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## adevahi

CNGL said:


> Abla (literally 'to remove any part from the body')


Never used only "abla"... I always heard "ablación", completely

"Abla" can be said to have exactly the same pronunciation than "habla" (literally "he speaks" or "I force you to speak"):banana:


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## sponge_bob

A92 near Guadix was where i saw a car hitting an airborne vulture. Lucky for the driver it hit the A pillar .
.and bent it.


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## ChrisZwolle

A segment of A-21 will open to traffic tomorrow. They call it 'between A-1601 and Sigüés'. I'm not entirely sure how long this stretch is. The A-1601 exit is pretty much near the village of Sigüés.

http://www.radiohuesca.com/noticia/...ntre-la-carretera-A-1601-y-el-enlace-de-Siges


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## alserrod

It is a really pity. It will be almost a segment to nowhere for a while.

I explain myself

https://www.google.es/maps/place/50...m2!3m1!1s0xd575bd0e931bd05:0x6d291f3ceb8b95fb

It will start (in the east) in the A-21 itself and end near Sigüés. There are about 30 metres over village and anyone to take A-137 will have to turn back to the village.

This makes that anyone going from Pamplona to Jaca will not have any advantage (just less traffic, not so much).

Only Jaca-Sigüés/Roncal could use this segment. Otherwise, the turn to take a small segment will be so long as the segment itself

(obviously it is one more segment to finish with the other A-21 corner in the west, not far from there)


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## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> A segment of A-21 will open to traffic tomorrow. They call it 'between A-1601 and Sigüés'. I'm not entirely sure how long this stretch is. The A-1601 exit is pretty much near the village of Sigüés.
> 
> http://www.radiohuesca.com/noticia/...ntre-la-carretera-A-1601-y-el-enlace-de-Siges


How did you managed to find the radio station I listen to when I'm at home? 

About Abla, yes I was to mention I was thinking about 'ablación', but somehow I erased that part.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A44:* Las Gabias (A338) – Alhendin 6.1km (2015/16 to 2018) – ? – map


The tender procedure for the last A44 Granada outer ring road has recently began. The contract comprises 6.1km of A44 plus 3.4km distributor roads. The contract value is 71.7 million €. Construction period is 26 months, see press release (12th September 2015).


*A57:* A Ermida – Vilaboa 6.5km (October 2015 to ?) – ? – map

The construction of the first A57 section will begin in October 2015, see press release (21st September 2015). Please refer to wikipedia for more details about the future A57.


*A7:* Carchuna – Castell de Ferro 10.1km (? to September 2015) – ? – map

The last A7 section is announced to be opened in the last week of September or in the first week of October, see news article (14th September 2015).


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## MichiH

*A316 in Andalusia*

*A316:* west of Mancha Real – north of Mancha Real 8.5km (? to 2015) – project – map
*A316:* Torrequebradilla – Puente del Obispo-South 6.7km (? to 2015) – project – map

Both sections are/were planned to be opened in September, see news article (3rd September 2015).


An older news article (28th July 2015) reported that Baeza bypass should also be opened in September...

*A316:* Baeza-West – Ubeda-West 8km (? to 2015) – project – map

... and the deadline of the two remaining sections is December 2015:

*A316:* Puente del Obispo-South - Puente del Obispo-North 5.8km (? to 2015) – project – map
*A316:* Puente del Obispo-North – Baeza-West 4.5km (? to 2015) – project – map


Can anyone confirm that
- I understood the news article correct
- it's still up-to-date (September is almost over...)


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> *23 September 2015*
> 
> A 2.5 kilometer segment of A-21 opened to traffic today in Spain. It runs from Sigüés to the A-1601 interchange.
> 
> http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...utovía-A/ab80db44-4b2b-46eb-a68e-86f30c86c2e2


There's a lot of info in this press release.

If I got it right, A21 Tiermas - Sigüés and Santa Cilia - Jaca sections are already u/c? I the the works on the latter section were suspended but the construction of Tiermas - Sigüés began in 2014, correct?

The construction of three additional A21 sections is announced to be started/resumed in 2016.

There are only 3 sections left (please refer to wikipedia), so:
- Límite Provincial Zaragoza/Huesca - Puente la Reina de Jaca
- Puente la Reina de Jaca - Santa Cilia
- Jaca Oeste - Jaca Norte

I thought one section is u/c and one section is suspended!?

*A21:* Puente la Reina de Jaca – Santa Cilia 7.2km (? to > 2017) – ? – map
*A21:* Santa Cilia – Jaca-West 9.0km (? to _suspended_) – ? – map

I guess that's wrong?

A68 (please refer to wikipedia) is also mentioned but Google Translate is not 100% accurate:



> Asimismo, en la segunda quincena del próximo mes de octubre está previsto licitar las obras del tramo Gallur-Mallén de la A-68 (duplicación de la N-232) y en noviembre se iniciarán las obras del tramo Figueruelas-Gallur, también de la A-68.
> 
> Also in the second half of next October it is expected to tender the construction of section Gallur-Mallen of the A-68 (doubling the N-232) and in November the works on the Figueruelas-Gallur will begin, also of the A-68.


I think tender procedure for Galluf-Mallen construction works will begin in October 2015 but will the tender procedure of Figueruelas-Gallur construction works begin in November 2015 or will the construction itself begin in November?


In addition, the press release mentions some A23 sections but I'm not sure at all what's reported.

Can anyone help?


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## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> There's a lot of info in this press release.
> 
> If I got it right, A21 Tiermas - Sigüés and Santa Cilia - Jaca sections are already u/c? I the the works on the latter section were suspended but the construction of Tiermas - Sigüés began in 2014, correct?


You're right regarding Santa Cilia - Jaca, where works were resumed last year. The construction of Tiermas - Sigüés has not started yet. They say in the press release that its works will be tendered next year.



MichiH said:


> The construction of three additional A21 sections is announced to be started/resumed in 2016.
> 
> There are only 3 sections left (please refer to wikipedia), so:
> - Límite Provincial Zaragoza/Huesca - Puente la Reina de Jaca
> - Puente la Reina de Jaca - Santa Cilia
> - Jaca Oeste - Jaca Norte


Not exactly.

Construction of Puente la Reina - Santa Cilia will be resumed next year (currently works are suspended).

The other two sections (Jaca Oeste - Jaca Norte and Límite Provincial Zaragoza/Huesca - Puente la Reina) will be tendered next year.



MichiH said:


> I thought one section is u/c and one section is suspended!?
> 
> *A21:* Puente la Reina de Jaca – Santa Cilia 7.2km (? to > 2017) – ? – map
> *A21:* Santa Cilia – Jaca-West 9.0km (? to _suspended_) – ? – map
> 
> I guess that's wrong?


Yes, it's wrong. The press release says construction on Santa Cilia - Jaca was resumed last year and works on Puente la Reina - Santa Cilia will be resumed next year.

Therefore I suggest you to exchange the status of these two sections.



MichiH said:


> A68 (please refer to wikipedia) is also mentioned but Google Translate is not 100% accurate:
> 
> I think tender procedure for Gallu*r*-Mallen construction works will begin in October 2015 but will the tender procedure of Figueruelas-Gallur construction works begin in November 2015 or will the construction itself begin in November?


It says that works on Gallur - Mallén will be tendered next month, while construction of Figueruelas - Gallur will start in November (works were tendered last May).



MichiH said:


> In addition, the press release mentions some A23 sections but I'm not sure at all what's reported.


The press release gives the following information:

1) Sections that have been recently put into service by the current government:

- Nueno-Congosto de Isuela
- Sabiñánigo Sur-Sabiñánigo Este
- Arguis-Alto de Monrepós

2) Sections currently under construction:

- Alto de Monrepós-Caldearenas*
- Caldearenas-Lanave*

3) Sections where works will be resumed next year:

- Congosto de Isuela-Arguis*

4) Sections that will be tendered next year:

- Sabiñánigo Este-Sabiñánigo Oeste


* I am not 100% sure if these sections are currently under construction or if their works are currently suspended and the government plans to resume them next year; the wording used in the press release "en 2016 continuarán las obras de los tramos (...)" can mean both that works are ongoing and will continue and that works will be resumed. :nuts:

In any event I've checked the wikipedia (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autovía_Mudéjar) and i've classified these sections according to what it says. 




MichiH said:


> Can anyone help?


I hope I've helped, it's a pleasure.


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## alserrod

I am not sure but, after today's opening, I guess that only in Monrepos pass they are working (from Nueno to Navarra).

Several segments are halted and other ones (I believe all in the rest of A-21) just... not started yet


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## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *A316:* west of Mancha Real – north of Mancha Real 8.5km (? to 2015) – project – map
> *A316:* Torrequebradilla – Puente del Obispo-South 6.7km (? to 2015) – project – map
> 
> Both sections are/were planned to be opened in September, see news article (3rd September 2015).
> 
> 
> An older news article (28th July 2015) reported that Baeza bypass should also be opened in September...
> 
> *A316:* Baeza-West – Ubeda-West 8km (? to 2015) – project – map
> 
> ... and the deadline of the two remaining sections is December 2015:
> 
> *A316:* Puente del Obispo-South - Puente del Obispo-North 5.8km (? to 2015) – project – map
> *A316:* Puente del Obispo-North – Baeza-West 4.5km (? to 2015) – project – map
> 
> 
> Can anyone confirm that
> - I understood the news article correct
> - it's still up-to-date (September is almost over...)


I can only confirm that you correctly understood the news article. 

I guess next week we'll have some more openings, once the Catalan regional elections have passed (yes, they affect the agenda of politicians from all over the country :lol.

By the way, the new bridge in Cádiz will open tomorrow, it's *CA35: Cadiz – Barrio Río San Pedro (CA36) 4.8km *on your list. 

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2015/09/23/actualidad/1443010660_004166.html

http://www.elmundo.es/grafico/espana/2015/09/23/55bb2de622601d5c248b4579.html


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## CNGL

arctic_carlos said:


> The press release gives the following information:
> 
> 1) Sections that have been recently put into service by the current government:
> 
> - Nueno-Congosto de Isuela
> - Sabiñánigo Sur-Sabiñánigo Este
> - Arguis-Alto de Monrepós
> 
> 2) Sections currently under construction:
> 
> - Alto de Monrepós-Caldearenas*
> - Caldearenas-Lanave*
> 
> 3) Sections where works will be resumed next year:
> 
> - Congosto de Isuela-Arguis*
> 
> 4) Sections that will be tendered next year:
> 
> - Sabiñánigo Este-Sabiñánigo Oeste
> 
> 
> * I am not 100% sure if these sections are currently under construction or if their works are currently suspended and the government plans to resume them next year; the wording used in the press release "en 2016 continuarán las obras de los tramos (...)" can mean both that works are ongoing and will continue and that works will be resumed. :nuts:
> 
> In any event I've checked the wikipedia (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autovía_Mudéjar) and i've classified these sections according to what it says.


It only doesn't say what would happen with the Lanave-Jabarrella reservoir and Jabarrella reservoir-Sabinanigo South. I guess they will be re-tendered.


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## arctic_carlos

Other news:



MichiH said:


> *A16?:* Cornellà (A2) – Sant Boi de Llobregat (C32) 2km (2009 to 2015)  project – map


According to the new Spanish Road Bill (http://www.congreso.es/public_oficiales/L10/CONG/BOCG/A/BOCG-10-A-153-1.PDF), the official name of this section (currently under construction) will be *B-25* (see page 46 of the bill).

And its completion date now is June 2016. Source: http://www.pemb.cat/es/proyectos-es..._el_tramo_entre_la_ronda_litoral_y_la_c32/74/

In this post in the Catalan sub-forum you can see recent aerial pictures of the works:



SEIM said:


> Imatges aèries de les obres de la connexió C-32 amb A2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PEMB l Conexión entre la A-2 y la C-32 en Sant Boi de Llobregat​
> 
> A10


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## arctic_carlos

More news:



MichiH said:


> *A2-AP7:* Castellbisbal (A2) – Castellbisbal (AP7) 1km (2007 to 2015) – project – map


Here you can also see recent aerial pictures of this section. Its completion date has not been announced, but it's clear it won't be ready before the end of 2015. hno:

http://www.pemb.cat/es/proyectos-es..._a2_y_la_ap7_a_la_altura_de_castellbisbal/73/



SEIM said:


> Les fletxes marquen la zona on vaig veure els treballs de desmunts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conexión entre la A-2 y la AP-7 a la altura de Castellbisbal l PEMB 2025​
> A10


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## MichiH

Thanks for all info .



arctic_carlos said:


> Here you can also see recent aerial pictures of this section. Its completion date has not been announced, but *it's clear it won't be ready before the end of 2015*. hno:


I'm not sure what you want to say:
- It will be opened in late 2015 at the earliest or
- It won't be opened in 2015

I guess you meant the latter though.


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## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> Thanks for all info .
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you want to say:
> - It will be opened in late 2015 at the earliest or
> - It won't be opened in 2015
> 
> I guess you meant the latter though.


Sorry, I actually meant the latter.


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## MichiH

^^ OK .

Is there any updated info about:

*A8:* Torrelavega – San Vitores 25.5km (? to Fall 2015) – ? – map (I think I recently read that it's still expected to be opened in 2015!?)
*A27:* Valls-North – Valls-South 5.7km (? to 2015) – ? – map
*A27:* Valls-South – Morell 8.7km (? to 2015) – ? – map
*A54:* Palas-West – Guntin-North 14.9km (? to 2015) – ? – map
*AC15:* A Coruna Outer Port – Pastoriza (AG55) ~ 5km (< 2011 to 2015) – ? – map
*A8009:* San Jose de la Rinconada-North – San Jose de la Rinconada-South 3km (? to Late 2015) – project – map
*FV2:* Matas Blancas – El Salmo 14.3km (? to Late 2015) – ? – map
*A33:* La Font de la Figuera (A35) – Caudete (A31) 12.5km (? to >= 2015) – ? – map

Still expected to be opened in 2015?


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## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> Is there any updated info about:
> 
> *A8:* Torrelavega – San Vitores 25.5km (? to Fall 2015) – ? – map (I think I recently read that it's still expected to be opened in 2015!?)


It should open this year, there are updated pictures on the Spanish thread and the works look quite advanced.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1743804&page=8

In any event, the official press release from last March said it was going to open during the fall of this year:

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...MUNICACION/NOTICIAS1/2015/MARZO/150316-05.htm



MichiH said:


> *A27:* Valls-North – Valls-South 5.7km (? to 2015) – ? – map
> 
> *A27:* Valls-South – Morell 8.7km (? to 2015) – ? – map


Works here are also pretty advanced. I think it will open this year. I haven't found any press article or official source, but I saw a bit of the works from the train last week and even signaling has been installed. Both sections are going to open at the same time, as otherwise it would be a mess for traffic (it would have to use narrow streets to cross Valls in order to get to the old national road).



MichiH said:


> *A54:* Palas-West – Guntin-North 14.9km (? to 2015) – ? – map


Opening in October 2015. It was announced last week:

http://www.europapress.es/galicia/n...-entrara-servicio-octubre-20150917194216.html



MichiH said:


> *AC15:* A Coruna Outer Port – Pastoriza (AG55) ~ 5km (< 2011 to 2015) – ? – map


Opening in December 2015. Press articles from last week:

http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/255...una-estaran-finalizadas-proximo-31-diciembre/

http://www.laopinioncoruna.es/coruna/2015/09/13/fomento-pondra-servicio-autovia-puerto/994260.html

http://www.farodevigo.es/galicia/2015/09/13/conexion-vial-puerto-exterior-coruna/1312825.html



MichiH said:


> *A8009:* San Jose de la Rinconada-North – San Jose de la Rinconada-South 3km (? to Late 2015) – project – map


I found two press articles from last July saying that this section will open in October 2015:

http://elcorreoweb.es/el-segundo-tramo-de-la-autovia-de-acceso-norte-abrira-en-octubre-LA615836

http://www.larinconada.es/noticias/...ovia-de-acceso-norte-se-inaugurara-en-octubre



MichiH said:


> *FV2:* Matas Blancas – El Salmo 14.3km (? to Late 2015) – ? – map


It should open before the end of the year:

http://www.canarias7.es/articulo.cfm?id=383965



MichiH said:


> *A33:* La Font de la Figuera (A35) – Caudete (A31) 12.5km (? to >= 2015) – ? – map


I wish somebody knew that... The construction of this section is progressing so slowly, it's desperating!


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## ChrisZwolle

It's a pretty awesome bridge. I saw it from a distance this year when I drove across A-4.


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## verreme

arctic_carlos said:


> More news:
> 
> 
> 
> Here you can also see recent aerial pictures of this section. Its completion date has not been announced, but it's clear it won't be ready before the end of 2015. hno:
> 
> http://www.pemb.cat/es/proyectos-es..._a2_y_la_ap7_a_la_altura_de_castellbisbal/73/


These pictures are already old -they have done much of the earthworks next to AP-7, including the construction of a new auxiliary road. The central section of the roadway (the one between both AP-7 carriageways) is now ready to be paved, as well as the embankments for the ramps that climb to both viaducts from A-2. Definitely not going to be ready for this year's elections, but they'll finish the whole thing soon after.


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## alserrod

Last summer I got small news about FV-2

There will be a new motorway from Corralejo to Morro Jable but instead of near the coast it will run by the middle of the island. In the southern side there is no other way that current FV-2 but it is supposed to pass by Antigua and not by Puerto del Rosario.

I can state that in northern side they have made more works... but very slow.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's a pretty awesome bridge. I saw it from a distance this year when I drove across A-4.




It really deserves a banner


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## Reivajar

Some additional pictures of the new bridge in Cádiz



potipoti said:


> @20m
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @marianorajoy
> 
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> 
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> 
> @fomentogob
> 
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> 
> @barral23


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## Sunfuns

It does look spectacular, but a bit weird too with it being so much higher than the banks. I missed it by less than a year it seems. Was in Cadiz with a car in June...


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## OAQP

Why are there 2 extra lanes in the central reservation? Is this some sort of tidal flow system?


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## ChrisZwolle

There appears to be a local two-lane road across the bridge as well. 

I've seen it quoted somewhere that there is also a tramway across the bridge?


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## Reivajar

The vertical clearance of the Constitution of 1812 Bridge is 69 m. It is the second highest in the world after the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge in New York. I guess it is justified by the shipyards located in the bay. Furthermore, the bridge has a practicable section which can be remove if those 69 m are not enough. You never know what they can build in the shipayrds! 

Anyway, the two extra separated lanes are supposedly reserved for public transportation, by now, just buses.


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## adevahi

Reivajar said:


> Some additional pictures of the new bridge in Cádiz





OAQP said:


> Why are there 2 extra lanes in the central reservation? Is this some sort of tidal flow system?


Like saw in the photo, it is 2+2+1+1: 2 for traffic Cádiz-Puerto Real, 2 for traffic Puerto Real-Cádiz, 1 for public transport Cádiz-Puerto Real, 1 for public transport Puerto Real-Cádiz.



> I've seen it quoted somewhere that there is also a tramway across the bridge?


The 1+1 lanes for public traffic are planned to be a tramway in the future... but I wouldn't trust on it.


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Today driving through the new bridge of Cádiz, can somebody says to me how to show the picture here? Thanks


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## MichiH

^^ [-img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/PuenteCadiz01.jpg[/img]
[-img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/PuenteCadiz02.jpg[/img]
[-img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/PuenteCadiz03.jpg[/img]

Without "-" between "[" and "img]" but it's damn huge....


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## ChrisZwolle

I don't think these images really meet Wikipedia quality guidelines.


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

MichiH said:


> ^^ [-img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/PuenteCadiz01.jpg[/img]
> [-img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/PuenteCadiz02.jpg[/img]
> [-img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/PuenteCadiz03.jpg[/img]
> 
> Without "-" between "[" and "img]" but it's damn huge....


Thanks man


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

ChrisZwolle said:


> I don't think these images really meet Wikipedia quality guidelines.


I upload on wikipedia cause to post here I have to post with one link


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving along Puente de La Pepa from Puerto Real to Cádiz (Spain) 26.09.2015 Timelapse x4


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-92 Guadix*

Some photos of A-92 approaching Guadix in Andalusia.


A92-71 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-73 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-75 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-77 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-82 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-86 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-89 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-90 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-92 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-94 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-97 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-100 by European Roads, on Flickr


A92-103 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## verreme

You gotta be careful with your speed there -that stretch has some of the longest straights in any Spanish motorway, and _Guardia Civil_ is often watching them. You really don't notice how fast you're going, I recall having to slow down after seeing 150 km/h in my speedo -and I never go past 130 in the conditions I was driving through (heavy rain).

Another thing that's a bit awkward is putting all Andalusian province capitals (but one) in the signs. It's a political thing, made to showcase the regional importance of A-92 (which was built by the Andalusian regional government, something you have reminders of in every single sign of the damn motorway). But it's confusing for drivers; one or two control cities would be enough.


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## ChrisZwolle

The long Benicarló and Vinaròs bypass of N-340 opens to traffic next Thursday. It is an 18 kilometer long super two, completely grade-separated.

http://www.elmundo.es/comunidad-valenciana/2015/10/13/561cb82b22601d47268b45a2.html


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> I wish we had Spanish roundabouts in the Netherlands though. They are much more spacious and comfortable than the low speed, sharp turn roundabouts over here.
> 
> Dutch roundabouts are built in such a way that you enter and exit the roundabout from the center of the roundabout, the roadway hardly forks out so they allow the lowest speed possible when turning on and off a roundabout.
> 
> On the other hand the turbo roundabouts may be more efficient / predictable than multi-lane roundabouts in Spain. I've seen people driving pretty much straight ahead on oversized 3-lane roundabouts with little traffic.


I'd love to see Dutch turbo-roundabouts in Spain. Signage is so clear that you can't just pick the wrong lane. Spanish multi-roundabouts are designed in a way that they encourage taking the racing line through them -an instant recipe for accidents. Plus, everybody has a different way to go round them and driving schools don't seem to agree on which way is better: some people (like me) are taught to use the leftmost lane when turning left, and some other people to only use the leftmost lane to overtake (which is pretty awkward -overtaking in a roiundabout?). I've seen friendships ending due to a discussion on which way is _the one_ :lol:.

I agree that Dutch or German one-lane roundabouts are too small, but we should find an intermediate solution. IMHO, two-lane turbo roundabouts should be the way to go. Three- (or four-) lane roundabouts should just be scrapped. Most of them are showoff things anyway.



ChrisZwolle said:


> The long Benicarló and Vinaròs bypass of N-340 opens to traffic next Thursday. It is an 18 kilometer long super two, completely grade-separated.
> 
> http://www.elmundo.es/comunidad-valenciana/2015/10/13/561cb82b22601d47268b45a2.html


Awesome news. This would mean a free-flow drive on N-340 between the terminus of A-7 in L'Hospitalet de l'Infant and A-7 in Castelló -but a set of roundabouts is on its way to ruin this drive :bash:.


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## Highway89

radko said:


> Hi, when were build autopistas? It's weird, there are so much sections. I compare Spain : Por ej., poor Poland, Nigeria, Bulgaria too.
> That's a pitty, older maps don't show dual-carriageways, only motorways. When were completed:
> Madrid - Badajos, Madrid - La Coruňa, Valladolid - Santander, Madrid - Murcia, Madrid - Sevilla and Granada, Sevilla - Murcia etc. I'm interest history of roads. I draw map of building total net motorways 2x2 (from eartly 70s) if you send map, sketch, text about it to me. Later I post.
> I suprised, that in Spain is very little 2 × 3 section: Barcelona, Valencia, Madrid and North-Eastern areas.


You can always check the Spanish Wikipedia, since most articles include the year in which every stretch was opened: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Autopistas_y_autovías_de_España

Additionally, if you're fluent in Spanish you can also check old articles on newspapers such as El País or ABC. For instance:

A-5 Madrid-Badajoz: completed in 1995
1995-11-25 Almaraz - Jaraicejo (source: http://www.elperiodicoextremadura.c...-eje-vertebrador-hispanoportugues_206317.html)
1992-11-30 Trujillo - Miajadas, Mérida - Badajoz, bypass of Valmojado (source: http://elpais.com/diario/1992/12/01/madrid/723212657_850215.html)

I've been able to find this:

Kilometers of Autovía or Autopista opened from 1984 to July 1990:









Source: http://hemeroteca.sevilla.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/sevilla/abc.sevilla/1990/06/25/041.html

Stretches opened during the months of June and July 1990:










Status of the different Autovías in *August 1991:*
*: Opened
Dot (·): U/C
Square: Construction not started








Source: http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1991/07/28/044.html

Status of the different Autovías at the *end of 1991:*








Source: http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1991/12/08/048.html

Stretches opened in *1992*:








(Trim. = quarter of the year, so 4º Trim means October-November-December)
Source: http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1992/03/03/015.html

Stretches opened during the summer of 1992:








Source: http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1992/06/28/086.html

Stretches opened in *1993*:








Source: http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1993/04/30/075.html


----------



## verreme

^^ *1.000* kilometers in a single year. Those were the days :cheers:


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## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> Awesome news. This would mean a free-flow drive on N-340 between the terminus of A-7 in L'Hospitalet de l'Infant and A-7 in Castelló -but a set of roundabouts is on its way to ruin this drive :bash:.


I hope it won't be clogged with trucks... That's the major downside of super-twos, convoys of trucks inhibit safe passing options. 2+1 would allow for safer passing of slower vehicles. 

I drove AP-7 in June and there are hardly any trucks driving the toll road, a very low amount considering the large urban and agricultural areas it supposedly connects. According to Fomento the truck share on N-340 is in the 30-40% range which is really high for a two-lane road.


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> I hope it won't be clogged with trucks... That's the major downside of super-twos, convoys of trucks inhibit safe passing options. 2+1 would allow for safer passing of slower vehicles.
> 
> I drove AP-7 in June and there are hardly any trucks driving the toll road, a very low amount considering the large urban and agricultural areas it supposedly connects. According to Fomento the truck share on N-340 is in the 30-40% range which is really high for a two-lane road.


According to Fomento, there's a new plan coming this year to "encourage" trucks to take the toll roads in exchange for discounts in tolls. I don't think it's going to work because trucks can easily drive 90 km/h along the whole of N-340 in Tarragona and Castellón. The Catalan regional government banned transit trucks on N-II in Girona province, and driving there is definitely better than before. However, banning trucks from N-340 would require a widening on AP-7 to cope with summer traffic, and this motorway is not profitable enough for the concessionaire to cope with this investment.

What they could also do in some stretches of N-340 is getting rid of those goddamn 1970s 2.5-meter wide hard shoulders and retrofit them to 2+1 plus narrow shoulders and a guardrail median with occasional at-grade intersections. But this is extremely unlikely since it hasn't been done before, and also because of the autovía-or-nothing mentality of Fomento.


----------



## OriK

verreme said:


> Plus, everybody has a different way to go round them and driving schools don't seem to agree on which way is better: some people (like me) are taught to use the leftmost lane when turning left, and some other people to only use the leftmost lane to overtake (which is pretty awkward -overtaking in a roiundabout?). I've seen friendships ending due to a discussion on which way is _the one_ :lol:.
> .


They mix up everything when explaining this. Roundabouts are simply circular streets or roads so the general traffic rules still apply there.

- If there isn't a yield sign et the entry point (appart from not technicaly being a roundabout), the ones that are inside the roundabout have to yield to those entering it as they are comming from the right side.

- If it's an urban roundabout, it's considered a street, you can choose the lane that better suits your route (imho. it uses to be the right lane for turning right and going straight and the left lane for turning left and u-turns, but if it's a roundabout that you know well, you might learn which is the best lane for you, e.g., if it's a roundabout in which almost everybody turns right, then the left lane is better for going straight). You can overake using any lane (although this doesn't usually make any sense).

- If it's a inter-urban roundabout, it's considered a road. You should always use the right lane except for overtaking. Thankfully the traffic conditions are an exception for this as the general rules doesn't make any sense in these roundabouts.

- You are not supposed to leave the roundabout from an inner lane, instead you should change to the rightermost lane before leaving it (ok, I know that actually it's physically impossible to not pass over the rightermost lane for exiting a roundabout, I mean that you are supposed to be driving in that lane before exiting).

- You must use the blinkers to change of lane and for leaving the roundabout. Technically you are also supposed to use the right blinker for joining it but it again doesn't make any sense.

Appart from these general rules, there are some etiquette rules more or less followed on top of the general rules that make some sense:

- Using the right blinker if you are leaving through the next exit. If your exit is the first one, you should turn it on before entering; if not, you should turn it on as soon as you pass the previous exit and before the previous entry. You should try to get into the right lane as soon as you turn on your blinker.
This way you prevent new cars entering to the roundabout in your way as you will have to use the right lane sooner than later. Also, cars from the following entry after your exit can anticipate your movement and use the gap that you are leaving in a more safe and efficient way.

- Using the left blinker if you are turning left or u-turning (i.e. you have to run through more than 180º before taking your exit or your exit is more than 2 exits away). It is not "required" to turn off your blinker when you are less than 180º or 2 exits away, but it helps. You should use one of the inner lanes in this situation.
This way you allow other cars to use the right lane for "short trips" while you make it to your exit.

- Don't laughting on people that miss their exit and have to do the complete circle once (or twice) again. (Ok, you can laught but don't let them see that you are laughting, they know it but they don't need to confirm their suspicions).

- PLEASE, DON'T USE THE RIGHT LANE FOR TURNING LEFT OR U-TURNING. Of course you are legally allowed to do so, but you are blocking both the traffic that has to enter in the roundabout and the traffic that has to leave it.

- You can ignore the lanes (of course not legally but practically) if doing so doesn't interfere wih any other traffic (so this is almost only appropiate on very low traffic situations). This shouldn't prevent you from using the blinkers to indicate which exit you are taking.


----------



## CNGL

Seeing those openings from the 90's, I guess if these motorways were to be built today they would be done in shorter sections, for example the Arcos de Jalon-Alhama [de Aragon] section of then N-II (now A-2) would be split into three at the Castile and Leon/Aragon border and at Ariza.

BTW, notice how A-3 between Honrubia Atalaya del Canavate and Utiel wasn't planned to be built in this round.


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## verreme

OriK said:


> - If it's an urban roundabout, it's considered a street, you can choose the lane that better suits your route (imho. it uses to be the right lane for turning right and going straight and the left lane for turning left and u-turns, but if it's a roundabout that you know well, you might learn which is the best lane for you, e.g., if it's a roundabout in which almost everybody turns right, then the left lane is better for going straight). You can overake using any lane (although this doesn't usually make any sense).
> 
> - If it's a inter-urban roundabout, it's considered a road. You should always use the right lane except for overtaking. Thankfully the traffic conditions are an exception for this as the general rules doesn't make any sense in these roundabouts.


See? That's what I meant when I said everyone has his or her own approach to driving on a roundabout. What you say is something I hadn't heard before, and I've already had many arguments about this. The fact that the Spanish driving code does not clear this grey area only makes it worse. We should a)get ride of those multi-lane roundabouts and b)clear it out in our driving code.


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> Maybe they mean a widening to four lanes with roundabouts, like N-340 along the Costa del Sol (which is even signed as A-7!)


I just remembered that, according to official plans, A-7 south of El Perelló (if it is ever built) is not going to be built following the current N-340 corridor, but further inland, close to AP-7. From El Perelló it will continue towards Camp-Redó, then Santa Bàrbara, Godall, Sant Rafel del Riu, Traiguera and La Jana, where it will connect to the extension of CV-10 (which by then will be a motorway and probably renamed into A-7).

That's why the by-passes of L'Aldea and Vinaròs-Benicarló in N-340 have not been built with motorway standards, as they're not going to be part of A-7.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/economi...vo-del-tramo-de-la-a7-la-jana-el-perello.html

http://www.elmundo.es/comunidad-valenciana/2014/04/28/535e78f022601d73268b456e.html

And here the official press release regarding L'Hospitalet de l'Infant - El Perelló section.

http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonly...0-98B5-4B7628A9AA2E/126456/140908APROBACE.pdf


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## MichiH

*A8:* Torrelavega – San Vitores 25.5km (? to Fall 2015) – ? – map

The final section of A8 is announced to be opened on Saturday, 17th October 2015. Source.


----------



## OriK

verreme said:


> See? That's what I meant when I said everyone has his or her own approach to driving on a roundabout. What you say is something I hadn't heard before, and I've already had many arguments about this. The fact that the Spanish driving code does not clear this grey area only makes it worse. We should a)get ride of those multi-lane roundabouts and b)clear it out in our driving code.


Yes, but the fact that the code doesn't make any special mention to roundabouts means that they aren't a special case so general rules still apply.

Think on the anticlockwise sense of the M-40 as a huge roundabout! It's not that different, it's just much bigger and with motorway standards (so it allows a much higher speed).

There is some information from official sources on how you are supposed to use them:

Car A (blue): Good usage: uses the righternmost lane and correctly signals when leaving.
Car B (green): Good usage: it's using an inner lane but changes to the right lane before exiting.
Car C (red): Bad usage: it's cutting the trajectory of other vehicles. It should have changed to the right lane before exiting.
Cad D (orange): Bad usage: it's following a trajectory that cuts other vehicles trajectories.
Car E (pink): Bad usage: the trajectory is good but not the changes of lanes insde the roundabout.

*Other resources:
*Why should I exit from the outernmost lane?
-> This video clarifies that the fact that you are circulating in circles doesn't change the rules.

In this video, a cop literally enforces the rule of using the outernmost lane when leaving a roundabout.
-> Some drivers even block the roundabout because they don't understand his instructions.

Efficient way of using a roundabout.
-> There's the legal way of using a roundabout, and there's the legal and efficient way of using it. This has more to do with the "etiquette" that I mentioned in my previous post.

All the information here: http://revista.dgt.es/es/reportajes/2014/10OCTUBRE/1009glorietas.shtml


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## KRX_69

*Sevilla - Granada (7/10/2015)

SE-30*

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*A92*

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*A92G*

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:cheers:


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## Reivajar

Signage along the A-92 seems kind of messy, old and slightly out of standard.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A57:* A Ermida – Vilaboa 6.5km (October 2015 to ?) – ? – map
> 
> The construction of the first A57 section will begin in October 2015, see press release (21st September 2015). Please refer to wikipedia for more details about the future A57.


There will be an official groundbreaking ceremony on 19th October 2015. Source.




arctic_carlos said:


> The press release gives the following information:
> 
> 1) Sections that have been recently put into service by the current government:
> 
> - Nueno-Congosto de Isuela
> - Sabiñánigo Sur-Sabiñánigo Este
> - Arguis-Alto de Monrepós
> 
> 2) Sections currently under construction:
> 
> - Alto de Monrepós-Caldearenas*
> - Caldearenas-Lanave*
> 
> 3) Sections where works will be resumed next year:
> 
> - Congosto de Isuela-Arguis*
> 
> 4) Sections that will be tendered next year:
> 
> - Sabiñánigo Este-Sabiñánigo Oeste
> 
> 
> * I am not 100% sure if these sections are currently under construction or if their works are currently suspended and the government plans to resume them next year; the wording used in the press release "en 2016 continuarán las obras de los tramos (...)" can mean both that works are ongoing and will continue and that works will be resumed. :nuts:
> 
> In any event I've checked the wikipedia (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autovía_Mudéjar) and i've classified these sections according to what it says.





CNGL said:


> It only doesn't say what would happen with the Lanave-Jabarrella reservoir and Jabarrella reservoir-Sabinanigo South. I guess they will be re-tendered.


There's a new press release. If I got it right, construction works of the Congosto de Isuela-Arguis section are not yet resumed but will be resumed later this year.



MichiH said:


> *A8:* Torrelavega – San Vitores 25.5km (? to Fall 2015) – ? – map
> 
> The final section of A8 is announced to be opened on Saturday, 17th October 2015. Source.


It seems to be delayed... Source. Is there any new estimated opening date?

*
A54:* Palas-West – Guntin-North 14.9km (? to October 2015) – ? – map

I'm not sure if I got it right and couldn't find any other source but A54 seems to be opened this weekend? Source :?.


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## KRX_69

*Granada - Roquetas de Mar (7/10/2015)

A4002*

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*A92*

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:cheers:


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## KRX_69

*A49 (7/10/2015)*

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:cheers:


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## Highway89

The A-92 must be the most photographed Autovía in Spain :lol:


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## Sr.Horn

ChrisZwolle said:


> The long Benicarló and Vinaròs bypass of N-340 opens to traffic next Thursday. It is an 18 kilometer long super two, completely grade-separated.
> 
> http://www.elmundo.es/comunidad-valenciana/2015/10/13/561cb82b22601d47268b45a2.html


Here a video with the full area between Benicarló (South) IC and Vinaròs-Ulldecona IC with the N238.

https://vimeo.com/142621355 
11:20 to 25:30

I think the government didn't show to the press the Vinaròs (North) JCT with the double and weird roundabout because is not finished. Well, some parts of the Benicarló (South) JCT aren't finished but is less obvious. :lol:

IMO: Directional signals with bad design (specially for the Industrial Zones, Rail Station, Hospitals) and other important historic villages that appears in the N340a (Sant Mateu and Morella) but omitted in the new bypass.

Many small directional signals using the infamous italian system and all to say the same: "path" Which "path"? But you can find 4, 5 or 6 "path" signals in a roundabout :crazy:

Lack of good service road. In fact the road is ready to duplicate, but that will never happen.

The final result, for the cars in transit, the situation on the old bypass is the same: too much traffic but without trucks... except several trucks companies based on the sides of the N340a and other logistic areas or Industries away from an easy entrance: I'm thinking in the Central Benicarló IC connection via the CV-135, the road was widened in part but look this pass under the rail line https://goo.gl/maps/ZgKqR7om4y32 :|


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## RV

When was the Santa Fe-access to Granada opened?... Looks like A-5 in Madrid, it even features a traffic light.


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## KRX_69

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:cheers:


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## KRX_69

*Málaga - San Pedro de Alcántara (10/10/2015)*

*MA20*

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:cheers:


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...as-obras/4c2f00a0-5bee-4c2d-9088-0e98249dee86
> 
> This sounds like existing AP-68 around Logroño will become toll-free and be part of A-68? From Arrúbal to Navarrete (29.2 km).


As far as I know, they will set to new barriers in the AP-68 around Logroño and surroundings free. This is, anyone going from Bilbao to Zaragoza will have to get a ticket at Bilbao, paying approaching Logroño, free motorway around Logroño and getting a new ticket till Zaragoza

One of junctions will be here

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.3918391,-2.2209071,5033m/data=!3m1!1e3

In addition, today Navarrete-Agoncillo can be toll free if you have electronic payment system


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## Highway89

KRX_69 said:


> 24.
> http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/124916392.jpg


That must be the only stretch of motorway in Spain where concrete has been used instead of asphalt in the last... 20 years?

Do you recall if it felt rough?


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## alserrod

Asturian Y so do... it is one of oldest motorways


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## KRX_69

Highway89 said:


> That must be the only stretch of motorway in Spain where concrete has been used instead of asphalt in the last... 20 years?
> 
> Do you recall if it felt rough?


Yes, when you drive in a motorway with a good asphalt and suddenly becomes a concrete paviment you feel the diference. In Portugal we have some old motoways like this :yes:


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## Highway89

Some pictures taken from the Ermita de San Felices in Haro, La Rioja. The _mirador_ is located near the tripoint between La Rioja, Castilla y León (Burgos) and the Basque Country (Araba/Álava).

This gorge of the river Ebro is one of the two main spots in which the Montes Obarenes are crossed. AP-68, old _Comarcal_ road C-122 and the railway line Castejón-Bilbao run along the southern shoreline, while the national road N-124 runs along the northern one. There's another pass crossing the Montes Obarenes not far from here - the famous Desfiladero de Pancorbo (AP-1, N-I and railway line Madrid-Hendaye).


Looking South-East:









Looking North-West:









Looking North, to the other side of the Ebro:









More pictures here: http://www.panoramio.com/user/8907594/tags/Conchas de Haro


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## verreme

Awesome pictures  That area has a nice concentration of motorway mountain passes.


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## Highway89

verreme said:


> Awesome pictures  That area has a nice concentration of motorway mountain passes.


Thanks! Yes, indeed. Apart from the Conchas de Haro and the Desfiladero de Pancorbo, there are a few beautiful gorges not far from here, e.g. Subijana, Conchas de La Puebla or Dos Hermanas. Not to mention the whole A-15 between Pamplona and Andoain, the AP-1 between Vitoria and Éibar...


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## KRX_69

*San Pedro de Alcántara - Cádiz (11/10/2015)

A7*

01.









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*N340*

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*A48*

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*CA33*

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:cheers:


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## KRX_69

*Cádiz - Sevilla (11/10/2015)*

*Puente de la Constitución*

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02.









03.









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*CA35*

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*CA32*

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## KRX_69

*A4*

27.









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*N-IV*

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*A4*

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:cheers:


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-7 Castalla - Alicante*

I made a video of A-7 descending into the Alicante Desert, from Castalla to Alicante.

If you look closely, you can see CV-80 (the autovía) is signed as CV-815 from A-7. CV-815 is a different road (going into Castalla).


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through Sevilla (Spain) SE-40 2.11.2015 Timelapse x4


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## Highway89

Highway89 said:


> Some pictures taken from the Ermita de San Felices in Haro, La Rioja. The _mirador_ is located near the tripoint between La Rioja, Castilla y León (Burgos) and the Basque Country (Araba/Álava).
> 
> This gorge of the river Ebro is one of the two main spots in which the Montes Obarenes are crossed. AP-68, old _Comarcal_ road C-122 and the railway line Castejón-Bilbao run along the southern shoreline, while the national road N-124 runs along the northern one. There's another pass crossing the Montes Obarenes not far from here - the famous Desfiladero de Pancorbo (AP-1, N-I and railway line Madrid-Hendaye).


A video of the motorways AP-68 and the AP-1 crossing the _Conchas de Haro_ and the_ Desfiladero de Pancorbo_:






Also, if you're interested:
=>The _Conchas the Haro_ along the national road N-124: https://youtu.be/AYwlWO4Rr9Y?t=176
=>The _Desfiladero de Pancorbo_ along the national road N-I: https://youtu.be/KyQ0c4xEUjs?t=373

Also on the A-1 corridor, not far from there, between Miranda de Ebro and Vitoria-Gasteiz, there is another pass: The _Conchas de La Puebla_: https://youtu.be/OhWYESSzqow?t=174


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## How Nice

Are there any plans for the RM1 to be finished off? At the moment it just ends in a orange grove!


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## verreme

How Nice said:


> Are there any plans for the RM1 to be finished off? At the moment it just ends in a orange grove!


The next stretch of RM-1 is already under construction. You can check it in MichiH's list.


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## ChrisZwolle

A 3.3 kilometer segment of A-334 (Autovía del Almanzora) in Andalucia will start construction next year. It runs from El Cucador to La Concepción, just short of A-7.

http://www.noticiasdealmeria.com/no...-conexion-con-la-a-7-en-esta-legislatura.html


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## How Nice

verreme said:


> The next stretch of RM-1 is already under construction. You can check it


Great info thank you......hadn't seen this list before 

It's disappointing that the new route isn't going to Santomera as originally planned.


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## zsmg

Highway89 said:


>


Had a good chuckle seeing the abandoned toll plaza in the section between the AP-68 and AP-1. It was so weird that you had to pay a toll and then immediately get a ticket for the next motorway.


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## CNGL

At 3:37 you can see the only Osborne bull in the Basque Country, best seen from A-1: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.7103...4!1sFIRKXV5e2RqePhryUTV_bg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


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## alserrod

zsmg said:


> Had a good chuckle seeing the abandoned toll plaza in the section between the AP-68 and AP-1. It was so weird that you had to pay a toll and then immediately get a ticket for the next motorway.


Yes. It is.

If you make any movement within AP1 and AP68 only one ticket and payment required. They will calculate how much to each company.

If you come from Burgos and go to Bilbao or Zaragoza it is cool.

If you come from Vitoria, cool too but also weird


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## verreme

How Nice said:


> Great info thank you......hadn't seen this list before
> 
> It's disappointing that the new route isn't going to Santomera as originally planned.


AFAIK RM-1 will be extended to A-7 in Santomera via the so-called _"Autovía del Bancal"_, which will be built by Fomento. Here's a news article that says the planning process of this ultimate stretch is going forward, and that the works of the motorway between Zeneta and Murcia have just been reactivated.


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## Suburbanist

These bulls are a fad, will they get torn down eventually?


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## verreme

*Autovía Iznalloz-Darro*

A somewhat forgotten motorway project is the _autovía_ between Iznalloz and Darro in Granada province. It would follow this route:










This would provide a full motorway-standard connection between Madrid and Almería, a city with a very busy port serving Morocco and Algeria. Currently, traffic travelling to Almería from the center of Spain may either go through Granada and make a 30+ kilometer detour (which includes the congested A-44 through Granada and the climb to Puerto de la Mora, which is prone to snow in winter, east of the city) or choose a regular two-lane road that follows a more direct route, the one the motorway would follow. This road is, however, unsuitable for high speeds.

The so called "Autovía Iznalloz-Darro" was tendered in 2011 and a ceremony to lay the first stone was held the year after, but works were suspended inmediately after. The Andalusian regional Government, which is the entity that is responsible for this motorway, argued that the financing procedure (shadow tolls) was to become a burden too big for the economically-constraint region. It was indeed the first motorway to be financed by shadow tolls in Andalusia.

As of today, the project is still frozen, but there's some hope for it to be reactivated. Andalusian Regional Government is restarting motorway projects that had been left on hold in 2011, such as the remaining stretches of Autovía del Almanzora (A-344) or Autovía del Olivar (A-316), so there's still a chance for A-308 to be given the green light (again).



Suburbanist said:


> These bulls are a fad, will they get torn down eventually?


I don't think so -they're a pop culture icon in Spain.


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## adevahi

Suburbanist said:


> These bulls are a fad, will they get torn down eventually?


Errrr... no, these bulls started to be collocated as advertisment in the 1950s. When in the 1990s was told to torn down them there was a movemente pro-bulls, so they finally were not torn down and, also, they were declarated "Spanish Heritage".

Today there are not a lot of "new bulls", the most of them were collocated 20 years ago or before and they will never be torn down unless vandalism do this.


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## Suburbanist

I just find odd that a commercial logo is allowed to stay out there, while all other logos are banned (for a reason, to avoid blight).


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## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> I just find odd that a commercial logo is allowed to stay out there, while all other logos are banned (for a reason, to avoid blight).


As it has been said, they're part of our cultural heritage. Getting rid of them would be like demolishing a historical building of cultural significance.


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## adevahi

Suburbanist said:


> I just find odd that a commercial logo is allowed to stay out there, while all other logos are banned (for a reason, to avoid blight).


There's have been a lot of polemic... the bulls of the brand "Osborne" are heritage, so the brand "Tío Pepe" (both sell wines) wanted the same treat with their publicity but they didn't get it... so these ones are demolished:


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## CNGL

However the Tío Pepe ad near the kmpost 0 of A-2 D) is heritage, thanks to it appearing every New Year's eve near midnight on national TV, and thus becoming associated with New Year.


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## CNGL

In other news, the 'World's cheapest motorway' will begin construction soon. It has already been tendered for a month now. So in MichiH's style, it will be as follows:

*A-68:* Figueruelas-Gallur (N-122/A-127) 18.6 km (Late 2015/early 2016 to Early 2019) - ? - map


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## verreme

^^ You could use the press release from the tender as project page.

Generally speaking, the lack of transparency of the Spanish authorities when it comes to roads is disturbing compared to other EU countries. In France or the UK, major road projects usually have a website with comprehensive, detailed information. In Spain, you often struggle to find just a press release -and it's not uncommon to see them removed from the website of Fomento because they don't keep the links up to date. Regional governments are even worse. Sometimes you have to rely on the local press for information that's not the (short, insufficient) press releases of tenders or openings.

In the last years, politicians talk a lot about honesty and transparency, but little effort is being made to bring to the people what Governments do. Infrastructure projects are even secretive. I wouldn't mind the cost of a road project to rise a bit if that meant that more information is going to be available to the public.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Dutch road authority never publishes the results of a tender on its public website. They don't publish when a tender started, they don't publish the offers, who bids and don't publish the contract value. We just have to trust that they're doing it right. Poland is much more transparent about it.


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Dutch road authority never publishes the results of a tender on its public website. They don't publish when a tender started, they don't publish the offers, who bids and don't publish the contract value. We just have to trust that they're doing it right. Poland is much more transparent about it.


Interesting. I thought the Netherlands were ahead of everyone in terms of transparency. However, I still think that detailed information on road projects (such as plans, visualizations, detailed maps...) is very scarce in Spain.


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## MichiH

^^ It's the same in Germany. There's often a project page but usually no 'official' info about tender procedures (no press release, no report on media, no info on project page) or names of companies awarded. The project pages usually had estimated completion/opening dates in the past but many project pages (e.g. Lower Saxony or Hesse) have removed all future dates.


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## ChrisZwolle

From what I've seen, Poland is by far the most transparent country in Europe when it comes to awarding motorway contracts. Everything is published, the announcement of the tender, the number of companies bidding, the names and the exact amount offered, then the winner including the contract value and the exact deadline. 

Most other countries don't even come close to publishing it to this level of detail.


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## MichiH

CNGL said:


> In other news, the 'World's cheapest motorway' will begin construction soon. It has already been tendered for a month now. So in MichiH's style, it will be as follows:
> 
> *A-68:* Figueruelas-Gallur (N-122/A-127) 18.6 km (Late 2015/early 2016 to Early 2019) - ? - map


What does "soon" mean? Do you think we'll get an info (groundbreaking ceremony with press release, media reports et cetera) or should I already add the project to the list?

btw: It's 13.95km according to the press release.



arctic_carlos said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> A68 (please refer to wikipedia) is also mentioned but Google Translate is not 100% accurate:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asimismo, en la segunda quincena del próximo mes de octubre está previsto licitar las obras del tramo Gallur-Mallén de la A-68 (duplicación de la N-232) y en noviembre se iniciarán las obras del tramo Figueruelas-Gallur, también de la A-68.
> 
> Also in the second half of next October it is expected to tender the construction of section Gallur-Mallen of the A-68 (doubling the N-232) and in November the works on the Figueruelas-Gallur will begin, also of the A-68.
> 
> 
> 
> I think tender procedure for Galluf-Mallen construction works will begin in October 2015 but will the tender procedure of Figueruelas-Gallur construction works begin in November 2015 or will the construction itself begin in November?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says that works on Gallur - Mallén will be tendered next month, while construction of Figueruelas - Gallur will start in November (works were tendered last May).
Click to expand...

I thought it should be:

*A68:* north of Mallen – south of Gallur 15.1km (2016? to ?) – ? – map
*A68:* south of Gallur – west of Figueruelas 14.1km (November 2015 to ?) – project – map

Should I already add the 2nd one?


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## CNGL

No groundbreaking ceremony will be held, works will just start. There is always some time between they announce the winning bid and the actual start of the works (I remember the very first section of A-22, the winning bid was announced in December 2004 but works didn't start until March 2005), so it's better to wait to either a forumer or a regional newspaper to report some movement in the section. I can confirm there was nothing on this section in late October. BTW, since it will be a duplication of existing N-232 I directly measured the road from the end of A-68 up to A-127/N-122 interchange on Google Maps and it came up with 18.6 km.


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## Highway89

verreme said:


> ^^ You could use the press release from the tender as project page.
> 
> Generally speaking, the lack of transparency of the Spanish authorities when it comes to roads is disturbing compared to other EU countries. In France or the UK, major road projects usually have a website with comprehensive, detailed information. In Spain, you often struggle to find just a press release -and it's not uncommon to see them removed from the website of Fomento because they don't keep the links up to date. Regional governments are even worse. Sometimes you have to rely on the local press for information that's not the (short, insufficient) press releases of tenders or openings.
> 
> In the last years, politicians talk a lot about honesty and transparency, but little effort is being made to bring to the people what Governments do. Infrastructure projects are even secretive. I wouldn't mind the cost of a road project to rise a bit if that meant that more information is going to be available to the public.


What I usually do is check the "Perfil del Contratante" or "Licitaciones" webpages of the different administrations, e.g.:

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...CONTRATACIONES/DG_CARRETERAS/concursos_obras/
http://www.seittsa.es/SEITT/LANG_CASTELLANO/CONTRATACION/LICITACIONES_OBRAS/

Most times you can even download the project document. However, I agree with you on the fact that it's difficult for the general public to get access to the information about the projects. Not to mention that it's almost impossible to know how the project is developing once the works have started. There's no info about which phases have been completed or what kind of problems the contractor has encountered, except for what is leaked to the local press.


Anyway, there have been other important news lately apart from the last openings:

It seems that the A-7 will be get a third lane per direction between Crevillent and Alhama de Murcia. It seems to have been divided into four stretches:

*Crevillent - Orihuela/Benferri. *AADT (2014): 45k-37k, length: 17 km, budget: 69.4 M€: http://fomento.es/MFOMBPrensa/Notic...oyecto-a/6b1a1995-7442-4b0c-ac5a-90694f7c71f3

*Orihuela/Benferri - Monteagudo. *AADT: 43k, length: 16 km, budget: 87.1 M€: http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/260...il-entre-alicante-murcia-alcantarilla-alhama/

*A-7/A-30. *AADT: 102k, length: 1.7km, budget: 2.5 M€: http://www.seittsa.es/SEITT/LANG_CASTELLANO/CONTRATACION/LICITACIONES_OBRAS/20151008-C.htm

*Alcantarilla - Alhama de Murcia.* AADT: 40k, length: 23.3 km, budget: 84.6 M€: http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/260...il-entre-alicante-murcia-alcantarilla-alhama/

Also, the first junction between the A-30 and the A-7 will be modified: http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG.../DG_CARRETERAS/concursos_obras/33-MU-5970.htm










Another stretch of Autovía that will get a third lane is the A-62 between Venta de Baños (junction with the A-67) and Tordesillas (junction with the A-6 and A-11):

*Venta de Baños - Dueñas. *AADT: 27k (20% truck share), lenght: 11.5 km, estimated budget: 42.8 M€. It includes a new allignment around Dueñas: http://fomento.es/MFOMBPrensa/Notic...-mejora-/d2ae0470-887a-4fef-b513-3e553c66c271

*Simancas - Tordesillas. *AADT: 34k, lenght: 10.5 km, estimated budget: 47.2 M€: http://fomento.es/MFOMBPrensa/Notic...de-y-de-/d35e134d-5678-4fd3-8527-c0faf651b7a3


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## ukraroad

Could you tell me any progress on TF1? Can't find it anywhere. The Canary islands are for some reasons omitted


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## verreme

^^ Barcelona's L9 will open next February and L10 will also open in 2016.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ L10 won't open in 2016.


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## CNGL

What about the central section? The one that won't open before the 22nd century at best .

Now back on topic, today the Gallur-Navarre border section of the 'World's cheapest motorway' (A-68) has been put up for tender. This section won't be as cheap as the other, as it has been estimated it will cost 82.24 M€ for 15 km, thus giving 5,48 M€/km (Still impresive, though). I've already numbered the exits it will have, as well as renumbered the exits of the Navarre section to make them consistent with the rest of A-68/N-232. So they are, in kmpost order:
(Motorway ends at km 269 near Figueruelas. Frankly, I wouldn't call that a motorway)
269 Z-525 Pedrola (East), Alcalá de Ebro
272 Pedrola (West), ZV-620 Pozuelo de Aragón (Actually CV-620, but that is a road in Valencian Community)
276 Luceni, Boquiñeni
282 Gallur (South)
(Figueruelas-Gallur section ends, Gallur-Navarre border section starts)
287 A-127 Gallur, Ejea de los Caballeros, N-122 Tarazona, Soria
293 Mallén (East)
295 Mallén (North), Cortes (South)
297 NA-5222 Cortes (West)
(Navarre border in the middle of that exit, motorway starts. For some odd reason kmposts in Navarre start in Pamplona rather than Vinaròs, the part of the last exit that is currently built is numbered 116)
304 (Current 109) NA-5210 Buñuel
306/309 (Current 107/104) NA-5200 Ribaforada, NA-3042 Ablitas
312 (Current 101) NA-5281 El Bocal
314/315 (Current 99/98) NA-134 Tudela (South), NA-5230 Fontellas
317/318 (Current 96/95) N-121-C Tudela, Tarazona, To AP-68
319/320 (Current 94/93) NA-160 Tudela, Fitero
321 (Current 92) Tudela (North)
322 (Current 91) Some industrial estates not worth mentioning.
Exit in the middle of nowhere, would be exit 89/324
327 (86) Again, more industrial things.
329 (84) AP-15 Pamplona
(Motorway ends here. Soon thereafter, N-232 crosses into Rioja and resumes kmposting from Vinaròs at km 331)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The missing link of TF-1 on the island of Tenerife opens to traffic next Friday. It runs from Adeje to Vera de Erques. This is the last segment of TF-1 that has autovía standards, the rest of the route to Santiago del Teide is a super two highway.

http://www.diariodeavisos.com/2015/...o-insular-se-abrira-al-trafico-desde-viernes/


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## verreme

Tenerife is closer than ever to have an expressway-standard ringroad :cheers:. I don't know which is the state of the last stretch though. A long tunnel is planned there, which is not new for the island.


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## CNGL

Today the last section of A-54 motorway (Lugo-Santiago) that is not yet under construction has been put for tender. It will run for 16.4 km between Melide and Arzúa and has an estimated cost of 157.58 M€. It will include several viaducts.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-38*

The Cullera-Norte interchange of A-38 opens to traffic tomorrow. It consists of a 916 meter long flyover that will separate traffic to and from N-332. So far traffic to and from A-38 has been combined on one ramp.










http://www.elperiodic.com/pvalencia...a-abre-enlace-cullera-norte-autovia-a-38.html


----------



## CNGL

Another example of how ridiculously cheap can be motorway construction in Spain: Last Monday the contract for duplicate all of SG-20 around Segovia was signed for 48 M€... for 15,3 km! That's right, 3.14 M€/km :nuts:. It should be noted it will be divided into two sections, one from A-601 to near CL-601, and another to N-110. In MichiH style, it would be noted as follows:
*SG20:* Segovia-North - Segovia-East 8.4 km (ca. March 2016 to ?) - ? - map
*SG20:* Segovia-East - Segovia-West 7.1 km (ca. March 2016 to ?) - ? - map


In other news:
*A27:* Valls-North – Valls-South 5.0km (? to 18th December 2015) – ? – map

This has been confirmed to be opening tomorrow.


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Cullera-Norte interchange of A-38 opens to traffic tomorrow. It consists of a 916 meter long flyover that will separate traffic to and from N-332. So far traffic to and from A-38 has been combined on one ramp. http://www.elperiodic.com/pvalencia/noticias/411391_maana-abre-enlace-cullera-norte-autovia-a-38.html


Official press release:

http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonly...1217AperturaramalEnlaceCulleraA38Valencia.pdf


----------



## verreme

CNGL said:


> Another example of how ridiculously cheap can be motorway construction in Spain: Last Monday the contract for duplicate all of SG-20 around Segovia was signed for 48 M€... for 15,3 km! That's right, 3.14 M€/km :nuts:. It should be noted it will be divided into two sections, one from A-601 to near CL-601, and another to N-110. In MichiH style, it would be noted as follows:
> *SG20:* Segovia-North - Segovia-East 8.4 km (ca. March 2016 to ?) - ? - map
> *SG20:* Segovia-East - Segovia-West 7.1 km (ca. March 2016 to ?) - ? - map


The reason of this cost is that they only have to build one carriageway. SG-20 is already a grade-separated, two-lane expressway, so they have to acquire no land. However, I guess they'll have to rebuild the interchanges. There aren't many of them anyway.



ChrisZwolle said:


> The Cullera-Norte interchange of A-38 opens to traffic tomorrow. It consists of a 916 meter long flyover that will separate traffic to and from N-332. So far traffic to and from A-38 has been combined on one ramp.


Still waiting for the reactivation of the works of A-38 South of there. IMO this is one of the few places where A-38 makes sense, because AP-7 is too far away from Sueca and Cullera.


----------



## J N Winkler

CNGL said:


> In other news:
> 
> *A27:* Valls-North – Valls-South 5.0km (? to 18th December 2015) – ? – map
> 
> This has been confirmed to be opening tomorrow.


In regard to the orange question mark, this sounds like what SEITT has slugged as "Variante de Valls" with an implied advertising date in 2007.

http://www.seitt.es/SEITT/LANG_CASTELLANO/INFO_EPE/CONTRA/LICITACION/LICITACIONES_OBRAS/

I would really like to see the _proyectos_ for all of these contracts, but SEITT didn't start uploading them until 2008.


----------



## arctic_carlos

CNGL said:


> In other news: A27: Valls-North – Valls-South 5.0km (? to 18th December 2015) – ? – map This has been confirmed to be opening tomorrow.


It has opened today. Official press release:

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...e-de--de/c6d09b1a-6ae6-43a0-ac44-c44ae2cdf578


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through Andalucía from Almonte to Ayamonte (Spain) 14.11.2015 Timelapse x4


----------



## arctic_carlos

Copied from the Spanish sub-forum:



MichiH said:


> ^^ If I got it right, a AG55 section should be opened on 23rd December, shouldn't it? Which section is it, Berdoias – Baio (17km) or Baio – Carballo-South (27km)?





Andrex1986 said:


> Good morning, MichiH:
> 
> It opened the next day December 23, is only access to the outside port of A Coruna and has nothing to do with section Berdoias-Carballo of the highway, AG-55.
> 
> Next year, if this is going to inaugurate the highway, AG-55, between Carballo and Berdoias. That coincides with the elections of the Galician Government (Xunta de Galicia) in October 2016.


^^ Exactly, as *Andrex1986* says, what will open on December 23 is this:



MichiH said:


> *AC15:* A Coruna Outer Port – Pastoriza (AG55) ~5km (< 2011 to December 2015) – ? – map


By the way, *MichiH*, you could also include on your list this opening (December 18, 2015):



ChrisZwolle said:


> *18 December 2015*
> 
> The last segment of the TF-1 autovía opened to traffic on the island of Tenerife, part of the Islas Canarias, or Canary Islands. It runs from Adeje to Vera de Erques and has a length of 7 km. Construction works were dormant for an extended period of time.
> 
> http://eldia.es/sur/2015-12-19/2-Abierto-todo-tramo-sur-anillo-insular-carreteras-ayer.htm


It's a 7 km motorway connecting the southern end of TF-1 with the previously opened 2+1 section of the insular ring road.


----------



## arctic_carlos

NEWS:

The Spanish government has approved the project of a new motorway in Murcia, southeastern Spain. It consists of a 22.1 km link connecting A-30 with A-7 and MU-30 west of Murcia. It will greatly reduce traffic congestion, as A-30 traffic going from Albacete to Cartagena will be diverted towards the new motorway and therefore the current common section of A-7 and A-30 north of Murcia will see less traffic.

In the link you can see a map of the new section:

http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonly...obadoproyectoconstrucciónArcoNoroesteMurc.pdf


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## ChrisZwolle

I'm surprised they did not open that many motorways in the 2-3 weeks before the elections. Most were opened before that time. Maybe they saved some projects to open, anticipating a new election if they can't form a government out of yesterday's outcome? Can we expect more motorway inauguration ceremonies?


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Opening ceremonies of that kind are forbidden by law in Spain during the 60 days before any elections. That's why you saw so many openings in October (two months before these elections) and in March (two months before regional and local elections). 

It's still possible to put motorways into service during this period of time before the elections, but without any opening ceremony. Of course politicians prefer the first option. :lol:

However there have been some openings in the last few days, but only where opening before the end of October was not technically possible (e.g. the third section of A-27).


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## MichiH

arctic_carlos said:


> By the way, *MichiH*, you could also include on your list this opening (December 18, 2015):
> It's a 7 km motorway connecting the southern end of TF-1 with the previously opened 2+1 section of the insular ring road.


I haven't added it to my list because...



MichiH said:


> The 14.5km b/n La Mancha (Santiago del Teide) and Vera de Erques (Guia de Isora) section of TF-1 was opened on Wednesday (map). The section b/n Erques and Adeje should be opened in summer 2015 (map). The final ring road section b/n Santiago del Teide and Erjos has a 6km tunnel which costs 400 million € (map). It's not yet u/c caused by lack of funding. Source (2).
> 
> The 2nd article (in German) contains a pic. It looks motorway/expressway-like but not all the way on OSM.... :nuts:
> 
> Should I add the two sections to my list? :?





ChrisZwolle said:


> Only the tunnel has four lanes. The rest is a vía rápida-like express road.


But I guess you're rith, Erques - Adeje does also feature 2 carriageways a 2 lanes. According to Google satellite images it has a width of about 25m.

*TF1:* Vera de Erques – Adeje 7km (? to 18th December 2015) – ? – map


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Exactly. While the section that opened earlier this year (Santiago del Teide - Vera de Erques, 14.5 km) was just an express road, with 2+1 sections and a small 2+2 tunnel, the section that opened last week (Vera de Erques – Adeje, 7 km) has full motorway standards.


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## ChrisZwolle

What is the deal with A-78 and A-79 near Elche / Alicante? Apparently these numbers were designated by Fomento, probably around the time that they were upgraded to four lanes (2007).

A-78 is not signed anymore. I guess it's possible it may still be designated as such in documents of Fomento? It's signed as N-340 and doesn't have autovía status. 

A-79 is still signed. It is a four-lane road with large roundabouts, and also doesn't have autovía status. The speed limit is 100 km/h, the road even has shoulders. It has been widened around 2007, the right-of-way was expanded dramatically from a simple two-laner to a four-lane road with shoulders and parallel roads. Did they built this in anticipation of large-scale urban developments? Right now A-79 serves only some peripheral areas and an oil storage plant. The road doesn't seem to be designed as a future autovía despite the wide cross-section, there has been no space preserved for interchanges.


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## ajch

minute 18:45 is my little village


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## ajch

Yesterday I returned from Malaga to my village and as I had time, I took a detour driving one local mountain road (MA-3101) that goes from Malaga to Casabermeja where it connect with A-45, instead of driving A-45. It took me 1 hour to do what it takes less that 15 minutes in the motorway.

But I could take photos of the Ap-46 and the A-45 from the mountains and see the bridges that were build to do the motorways.

Ap-46 from road mountain MA-3101 (looking west)


A-45 from road mountain MA-3101 (looking east)


Ap-46 from road mountain MA-3101 (looking west and north) (2 pictures)


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through Catalunya (Spain) from L'Hospitalet de Llobregat to El Bruc 7.12.2015 Timelapse x4


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## Farnan

I amde a list in the Spanish forum about the AADT of the different motorway, that I have made using Fomento's listing.

I have made a list of the "useless" motorways.
The list of useless isn't equal to all the motorways who don't reach an AADT of 10.000 (specially when they had a superior AADT of 10.000 before the economicial crisis).
In gneeral, the criteria is:
For traffic with a non-saturated alternative, an AADT of 15.000
For trafic in Madrid or Barcleona, an AADT of 15.000
For local-comarcal traffic of other big Spanishcities (Valencia, Bilbao), an AADT of 10.000
For the rest of cases, an AADT of 7.000-8.000. However, if a motorway is a small part of a large distance corridor, has high seasonal peaks, or used to have a igher traffic and dropped mainly due to crisis, this value can pass.
As well, as motorways with no good connections that are meant to be completed. In three special cases, a lower AADT is accepted for "help" the territory, in the way that affects a city that had no direct motorway of all (Cuenca) or with his main city (Caceres).

List of motorways that should be out of the plans (only projects that had apssed a n environment test)..


Code:


A-2 Alfajarin-Fraga
R-2 Madrid-Guadalajara*
R.-3 Madrid-Arganda*
A-4 Los Palacios-Aer. Jerez
R-4 Madrid-Ocaña*
R-5: Madrid-Navalcarnero*
AP-7 ALicante outer by-pass*
AP-7 Cartagena-Vera
A-11: Soria-Aranda de Duero-Tudela De duero
A-14: Almenar-Sopeira
A-21: Sanguesa exit-Jaca
A-28: Tarancon-Guadalajara
A-32: torreperogil-Albacete ring-road
A-32: New Abacete ring-road
AP-36: ocaña-La Roda
A-40: toledo outer-bypass; Toledo-Tarancon. (and I mention, Cuenca-Teruel, even though it hasn't passed a DiA because it's absolutely ridiculous (in other cases, an expressway with proper exits, service lanes, aligment for 100 km/h (exceptionally 80-90 km/h). It 
AP-41: Madrid (R-5)-Toledo (including TO-22)
A-54: Lugo-Santiago
A-56: Lugo-Ourense 
A-60: Valladolid-Airport-A-231 junction
A-65: benavente-Palencia
A-72: Monforte-Chantada
A-73 Burgos-Aguilar de Campoo
A-76: Ponferrada-O Barco-Monforte
A-308: Iznalloz-Darro
A-316/A-318: Martos-Alcaudete-Baena-Cabra // Lucena-Puente Genil-Estepa
ARA-A1: Zaragoza's outer ring-road
CM-41/CM-43: La Sagra's motorway, specially with an aligment that goes "far" for the people (what in the cases of A-3 or A-23 may be okay, in this case isn't)
CM-2X: Cuenca-Albacete
CM-45: Ciudad Real-Valdepeñas
A-601: Segovia-Aldeamayor de San Martin
A-631 (CL-631) Ponferrada-toreno
AG-31 Ourense-Celanova (too far from main use)
MP-203: R-3-Alcala de Henares
RM-16/RM-17: Access to Murcia new Airport

Honorable mentions: CV-10: Pobla tornesa-Vilanova D'Alcolea (is not useless, but its main use don't corespond to a Valencian-owned motorway that doesn't even resolve the problem of N-340 although the truck ban helps). And for people who thinks CV-40 is the same case, there's a Big difference: CV-40 serves Alcoy, Albaida and specially Ontinyent with a more "flat" terrain than N-340 (who had a section like a 70's-80's not-REDIA or similar roads.-
A-68: Figueruelas-Tudela: Why made a freeway when there's a motorway that can handle 90% of the traffic of N-232 with little problems (0 problems during 363 days of a year).
AG-53: Even though its AADT is borderline acceptable (Santiago-Lalin has a lot of AADT), what0s the meaning of the Xunta de Galicia constructing it? Although it could be justified by "nacionalism " (however, why not all the corridor Santiago-Ourense).
A-231: In Castile y Leon there's no nacionalism at all, whats the meaning of making a motorway by their own in a state National corridor.
And Cuenca-Albacete motorway: There's three differences, 1) the motorway isn't needed, 2) is not compelted or U/C and 
3) IThere's a key difference: In the cases of A-231 and AG_53 the motorway is made while the paralell road is state-owned. However, here there's also the transference of the national road (N-320, actual CM-220) tot he autonomous region, even if it made little sense (specially in Castilla-La Mancha, why orange netowrk is considered secondary network).

*And about Spanish toll roads, Spanish's toll taxes are (in general) too expensive compared of the economic power of Spanish people (and has been proven since the 80's), specially for trucks and short distances.
Personally, Spain shouldn't have constructed new toll motorways since the relative success of the "autovias" back in the early 90's compared to the Franco's toll "autopistas", unless: 
1) Malaga-Estepona situation: A toll motorway that serves long-drastic traffic while a free-way (in thory) handles short-distance traffic.
2) Malaga-Altod e als Pedrizas: A saturated freeway that's extremely difficult to repair had a paralell motorway that technically serves a diferent destination than the freeway.
3) C-32 South: A toll motorway made in a corridor with another toll motorway. (That doesn't mean that the actual price of the Garraf tunnels are "good").

If the R-X of Madrid were free, they could help doing its purpose (specially R-3 and in vacations, R-5).
If AP-46 were a free motorway, Madrid-Albacete-Almansa/Hellin/Alicante/Elche/Torrevieja/Benidorm/Denia/Murcia/Lorca/Cartagena/Mojacar traffic would go with this road like many people and return to the historical route (N-301). If they want to be sure people use the new motorway, they could even degrade A-31 (Making 1x1 or even closing it) if they dodn't want to conserve two motorways that does exactly the same.

And about near bankrupt motorways, although I don't expect to happen in all the motorways, I aren't surprised if some motorways (specially Madrid-Toledo and Cartagena-Vera) are closed to traffic.

Is not hard to imagine closing to traffic and in X years, transform it in a (yes!) a Green Way (Via Verde).


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## ChrisZwolle

Traffic volumes are only one factor in constructing autovías. Travel times and traffic safety are also important issues. Traffic fatalities in Spain have been reduced at one of the fastest rates in the EU, coinciding with the large-scale expansion of the autovía network. Poland is undergoing a similar trend currently.

Another factor is the very low construction cost of autovías in most of Spain. You can build an autovía in Spain where the same amount of money would get you a simple two-lane road with roundabouts in the Netherlands, Belgium or the UK. This means autovías are profitable at a lower traffic volume/cost ratio than in many other countries.


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## arctic_carlos

Some autovías will only make sense once they're completely built; it's unfair to judge their level of use right now, as most traffic still use other alternative congested autovías waiting for the new route to be completely built.

For example, the current section A-33 is not used by lots of cars (and especially trucks) between Valencia and Murcia because there's a missing section between Yecla and A-35. Currently they prefer to use A-31 and A-7 as it is 100% autovía there. But the situation will drastically change once A-33 is finished.

The same can be said of A-11 or A-12, as nowadays many cars prefer using A-62 and AP-68 between Valladolid and Zaragoza.

Even A-21 + A-23 + A-22 will become the natural route between the Basque Country and Catalonia once the missing sections are built, but now all traffic goes via Zaragoza (AP-68 + AP-2).

Hence, I suggest that you also consider other factors (e.g. sections u/c or planned) when assessing the usefulness of Spanish autovías.


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## Farnan

I explain why those motorways are on the list. And for the record, I never put any tram of A-12 Logroño-Burgos (and for the record, neither Pamplona-Logroño) for the reason of "attracting traffic".



Code:


A-2 Alfajarin-Fraga. 
Cause: It's only caused by long distance trucks, that with the actual discount can go to AP-2.  Solution: Ban trucks on N-II.
R-2: Madrid-Guadalajara
Cause: Too low traffic for the area it crosses. It caused a lot fo headaches to the goverment. Solution: Complicated (Ideally being free).
R-3 Madrid-Arganda*
Cause: Low traffic for the area it crosses. Also, it causes a lot fo problems. Solution: Complicated. (Ideally being free).
Aternative. Third line until Arganda.
A-4 Los Palacios-Aer. Jerez
Cause: Is mainly caused by trucks (although is nowhere like N-II in Aragon) and lcoal traffic. Also, concesion ends in 31/12/2019 and there are no plans (yet) to renovate.
R-4 Madrid-Ocaña*
Cause: Very low traffic for the area it crosses. Also, it causes a lot of problems. Solution: Complicated (ideally being free).
Alternative: Third line on A-4 until Ocaña.
R-5: Madrid-Navalcarnero*
cause: Very low traffic for the area it crosses. Also, it causes a lot of problems. Solution: Complicated (ideally being free).
Alternative: Third line on A-5 until Navalcarnero.
AP-7 Alicante outer by-pass*
Solution: Complicated.
Alternative: Third-line on A-70 (that would be A-7) between Alicante University and A-7 junction. Also, AP-7 being toll-free like Hiperronda on Malaga.
AP-7 Cartagena-Vera
Solution: Close it and convert it on a Green Way. With the free for use Cartagena by-pass, convert it into a non concession motorway.
A-11: Soria-Aranda de Duero-Tudela De duero
Cause: Too little traffic, main problems caused by trucks who has alternative  through Burgos-Logroño, or (now ) through Pancorbo-Haro.
Alternative: Expressway 81x1) Tudela-Aranda.
A-14: Almenar-Sopeira. 
Cause: Too little traffic (IMD of 3.000).
Alternative: By-apass for Alfarrasa dn Puente de Montañana. Minimum of 80 km/h available until Sopeira. 
A-21: Sanguesa exit-Jaca
Cause: Too little traffic. ANd no, traffic S: Sebastian-Pamplona-Barcelona won't magically make the road "busy".
Alternative: Constructing new N-240 as an expressway with the actual layout of A-21, prepared for 2x2.
A-28: Tarancon-Guadalajara
Cause: Too little potencial traffic outside select dates,e ven completed. It passed through a very sparsely populated area. Almsot zero relation between Tarancon and Guadalajara. (in fact, outside of its province, I think only Cuenca and Toledo has a very small relation to Guadalajara)
A-32: torreperogil-Albacete ring-road
Cause: Too little traffic. Also, long distance traffic (outside Ubeda-Albacete or similar)  can go via A-4-A-43.
Alternative: Making a 1x1 expressway. Not putting Albacete indicators on A-44/A-4.
A-32: New Abacete ring-road
Cause: Too little traffic (unless it's actually a semi-urban road, which I didn't know). 
AP-36: ocaña-A-43 interchange
Cause: Too little traffic. Good alternative on A-3. 
Alternative: Making the motorway free, and being the main Madrid-Albacete connections, with more exits.
A-40: Toledo's outer-bypass; (and I mention, Cuenca-Teruel, even though it hasn't passed a DiA because it's absolutely ridiculous (in other cases, an expressway with proper exits, service lanes, aligment for 100 km/h (exceptionally 80-90 km/h would be encessary, here it isn't even necessary).
Alternative (Rest of trams): Expressway between Ocaña and Tarancon.
I would save this motorway if the Toledo bypass were acceptable (good way to cover Badajoz-Valencia
AP-41: Madrid (R-5)-Toledo (including TO-22)
Cause: Extremely low traffic. 
A-54: Lugo-Santiago
Cause: Too low traffic. Even there's ana lternative.Alternative: Freeway Guiritiz (A-6)-Santiago Airport, usng the corridor of N-634 (in fact, Santiago-Santiago Airport was openeed with the name "N-634" (!!)) 
A-56: Lugo-Ourense 
Cause: too little traffic.
Alternative: Making a corridor or:
Make an Autovia Lugo-Sarria-Monforte-Ourense (Higher IMD, not too much distance, 
A-60: Valladolid Airport-A-231 junction
Cause: Little traffic. Also, good alternatives for everything important outside Valladolid-Leon (who technically has an alternative.
Alternative: Expressway (1x1) and specially- by-passes (specially in Medina del Rioseco).
A-65: benavente-Palencia
Cause: too little traffic. Also, good alternatives for almost long distance traffic.
Alternative: By-pass of the most important towns it crosses.
A-72: Monforte-Chantada
Cause: Too little traffic. Also, good alternatives for long distance traffic.
Alternative: Completing corridor Monforte-Chantada-Lalin (which is more than enough).
A-73 N-623/N-627 junction-Aguilar de Campoo
Cause: Too little traffic. traffic going to Madrid is detourable via Valaldolid-Palencia.
A-76: Ponferrada-Monforte
Cause: Little traffic. Complicated terrain. Alternative for long distance traffic.
Alternative: Guarantee 80 km/h ain all road. Eliminate only town crossing.
ARA-A1: Zaragoza's outer ring-road
Cause: Little traffic for the area it crosses.
Alternative: Making A-222 only 1x1.
CM-2X: Cuenca-Albacete
Cause: Too little traffic. 
Alternative: Expressway 1x1.
CM-45: Ciudad Real-Valdepeñas
Cause: Too little traffic.
Alternative: making an 1x1 expressway.
A-601: Segovia-Aldeamayor de San Martin
Cause: Little traffic. And part of the traffic, is not even on this corridor.
Alternative: Autovia on the corridor Adanero-Valladolid (N-601). It's more shorter and covers more population (and more related to Valladolid) that causes relatively high AADT in higher stretches (Olmedo-boecillo).
A-631 (CL-631) Ponferrada-toreno
Cause: little traffic. Zone in very regressive demographic expectations.
Alternative: 1x1 expressway.
AG-31 Ourense-Celanova (too far from main use)
Cause: Little traffic. Zone in regressive demographic expectations.
Alternative: 1x1 expressway that covers with a layout more simialr to OU-540.
MP-203: R-3-Alcala de Henares
Cause: Potential little traffic, given the experience of more useful R-X roads.
Alternative. making free.
RM-16/RM-17: Access to Murcia new Airport 
Cause: Aeroport with dubious traffic. Main aeroport in Alicante.
Alternative: ¿?
EX-A1: Navalmoral de la Mata-Coria-Moraleja
Cause: Too little traffic. Road to almsot nowhere. Main road is enough.
RM-3: Totana-RM-23 junction
Cause: too little traffic. Main traffic Murcia-Mazarron already has an alternative.

The list is not actually that big. R-X and AP-36 could be solved if they were free/cheaper (R-3 would give a 2nd acces to Madrid evading Vallecas, Vicalvaro and Rivas, R-4 and R-5 would be really useful on vacation periods and weekends, actual AP-36 (A-36?, A-30?) would be the new Madrid-Albacete-Alicante/Cartagena road, like historically was.


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## CNGL

Actually A-40 Toledo-Ocaña is badly needed. With that, I'm sure Toledo outer bypass won't be as bad as it is now. IIRC N-400 Toledo-Aranjuez has one of the highest AADTs of any road in Spain, and is worsened further by the fact this part of A-40 was linked to the original plans of AP-41, which was cancelled after it got a negative EIS.

MP-203 will be troll-free, actually. There is a little section open to traffic just north of Loeches (even imaged in Street View), and no tolls are in sight. It is said it would be tolled because it will end at R-3, but nothing further. Now that they have found a way to cross the Madrid-Huesca Barcelona HSL, the only thing that remains to do is: complete it, damnit!

And about A-231, it inexplicably duplicates a designation: There was already a road numbered A-231 in Northeastern Teruel province. Why they chose that number, is out of reach to me.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ A-40 is also a very good example of what I mean by saying that the situation of many autovías that currently seem useless will drastically improve once they're completed according to the initial plans. 

The economic and financial crisis hit Spain at a time when the country was engaged in a very ambitious road construction plan. Some planned autovía sections were actually useless or redundant, but others made a lot of sense.

As 2015 was an election year, the government made a big effort to open as many sections as possible, namely those which were in an advanced stage of construction when the spending cuts took place. However there are still hundreds of km of new autovías under construction and we can expect several openings in the coming years.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Fomento road budget isn't actually that big despite the volume of new autovía projects. The 2014 budget was only € 2.1 billion, which is less than what they spend in the Netherlands on a 2500 km motorway network.


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## verreme

For me that list of "useless" motorways is pointless. Driving 200 kilometers on a 2-lane road with an AADT of 8.000 vehicles per day is a pain. Plus low construction cost of Spanish motorways in the Meseta plains changes the cost-benefit ratio. The specific circumstances of Spain make it impossible to judge the utility of our motorways using the same parameters you would use in Germany or the UK. And this is a mistake that we see too often in the media, be it Spanish, German or American. Even EU officials have done this.

Like it or not, Europe (or the EU for the matter) is too diverse to use the same measuring stick. Same applies every time someone says that all European countries should have a common driving code. Driving in Spain has little to do with driving in Germany or Italy. And roads are just plain different. It's part of the cultural identity of each country.


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## General Maximus

I can't really see how a road is a part of a cultural identity of each country. Once it has asphalt, road markings and its share of signs then people can drive on them. And it's really up to any government to apply driving standards to each country. Most of the road signs have the same meaning in each country anyway, and as EU citizens we can drive where we like in Europe. And within individual countries we have quiet motorways and busy motorways, so the above doesn't really make much sense to me. Forgive me.


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## Farnan

With the exception of the R-X motorway, all of the motorway list had an expected of AADT of 5.000 or less with not expectations to improve much.

Also, I consider the situation that if certain motorway is constructed, the need of another decreases.

Real example: The construction of A-43 made useless constructing A-32 beyond Torreperogil. With A-43 open, long distance traffic will use this route. There's Jaen-Albacete, but the motorway isn't needed for connecting two cities with small relationship.


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## CNGL

Once I read about a proposal to widen A-2 between La Almunia and La Muela to 2x3. I don't think it is needed now, given that section has an AADT of 20,000, and it doesn't get congested at all.


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## alserrod

Haven't read about that. Just only (existing 2x3 to La Muela)


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## Farnan

There's little meaning on an expansion of A-2 between its current ending and La Almunia. 

In Spain, not many 3x3 are needed. The worst cases of 2x2 thst need ampliation ASAP are A-3 (6 km), A-5 (5 km), A-4 (3 km), A-42 (2 km). Surprisingly or not, all of those sections are paralel to the R-X motorways.

About the list of "useless" motorways, the list doesn't mean that constructing new motorway is bad, quite the contrary. 

The thing is that they're projects that no had possible traffic to cover. Although AADT is not the only factor here (there's truck traffic, time saved, security) an autovia that has an AADT of 2.000 or 3.000 is unnecessary. And that would means that a lot of national or basic had to be 2x2, which don't make sense.

If I had to put all trams with less than 10.000, I had to put a lot of motorways:
4 examples.
A-5 Miajadas-Merida
A-6 Benavente-Astorga y Villafranca del Bierzo -Becerrea.
A-23 Teruel-Cariñena.
A-50 Avila-Salamanca.

None of them are "useless motorways". 

I want to make the list of urban useless motorways (fortunately is small). Here's the list



Code:


GR-12: Acces to granada Airport.
Cause: Expected little traffic. For the same reasons that AI-82/A-81.
GR-16: Est access to Motril's port..
Cause: Too little traffic. The Western acces is expected to have way more traffic.
HU-20: South Variant of Huesca.
Cause: Huesca is not a city that requires a lot of by-pass. Also, first start to work on the northern one before using the south one.
M-12: M-40-M-13.
Cause: Too little traffic for the area it crosses. Also, it has an alternative.
TO-22: West access to Toledo to AP-41.
Cause: Connections to the most useless motorway constructed. Too little traffic.

Note: Includes dual-carriage-way roads that nowhere had AADT standards to be 2x2.


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## ChrisZwolle

RM-16 could be the least used autovía in Spain. I could not find traffic counts, but it serves a recently built airport that is not operational due to being built in a no-fly zone. 

Though RM-16 only has one actual interchange, the other is a roundabout interchange with A-30.


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## alserrod

Since 2007 have heard nothing about HU20.

If only they finished A22!!!


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## verreme

^^ A-79 is not a motorway. It does a good job relieving a congested stretch of A-70 however. Also, some other motorways on this list are only vague plans. Never heard of GR-12, nor HU-20.

I think that not even Madrid's _Radiales_ are useless -it's good to have a parallel road in a corridor so important as these. That way there's an alternate road in the event of a closure (accident, roadworks...). We could discuss if tolling them was a good idea (they're obvioulsy empty because of that). But with Madrid's growth in the early 2000s, and considering how cheap it was to build roads there (plus the fact that a big part of M-50 was part of the deal, and this one is toll-free), I don't think they are that evil as it's often pictured in the media: since recession started, they've constantly been the punching bag of journalists.


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## alserrod

HU-20 was written in several reports in 2006ish

It would join Walqa centre to Sietamo in the south bound of Huesca. 

A Zaragoza-Barbastro-anywhere in the Pyrenees will save 6 o 7 km

But it was just a project when full of projects were over bureaus

It will be enough (for instance) to finish A-22 (and in 2016 there is no budget for it)


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## Farnan

verreme said:


> ^^ A-79 is not a motorway. It does a good job relieving a congested stretch of A-70 however. Also, some other motorways on this list are only vague plans. Never heard of GR-12, nor HU-20.
> 
> I think that not even Madrid's _Radiales_ are useless -it's good to have a parallel road in a corridor so important as these. That way there's an alternate road in the event of a closure (accident, roadworks...). We could discuss if tolling them was a good idea (they're obvioulsy empty because of that). But with Madrid's growth in the early 2000s, and considering how cheap it was to build roads there (plus the fact that a big part of M-50 was part of the deal, and this one is toll-free), I don't think they are that evil as it's often pictured in the media: since recession started, they've constantly been the punching bag of journalists.


If the R-X were toll-free, it wouldn't be useless at all. (Actually, the latest project of R-1 is actually toll-free!!!). Same with AP-36, in the sense that a free motorway that actually serves Quintanar de la Orden, Mota del Cuervo, Las Pedroñeras would be useful to drop traffic on A-3 (and made that A-3 would be mainly Madrid-Valencia/Castellon, like it historically has been.

Actually, if you'll read the list, you find out that very few of the motorways are actually in construction or are put in service. For better visualization, I use colors:
Red: No plans of constructing it soon.
Orange: Motorway on works, or mix of trams in service, works and/or planning stages.
Green: Motorway on service.


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## verreme

^^ Well concessions on these motorways will expire sooner or later, so it's a matter of time that they'll fulfil their purpose


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## Aokromes

concession expire don't means automatic toll removal, they can continue to be toll roads but administrated by goverment.


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## VITORIA MAN

Aokromes said:


> concession expire don't means automatic toll removal, they can continue to be toll roads but administrated by goverment.


AP8 In the basque country, for instance


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

A-5 and M-40

Driving through Madrid (Spain) from Móstoles to Ifema 23.01.2016 Timelapse x4


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-7 Algeciras*

Some photos of A-7 through the city of Algeciras. It is the southern terminus of A-7, even though A-7 through the city is not entirely grade-separated.


AP7-84 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-85 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-86 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-87 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-89 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-91 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-92 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-93 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-96 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-98 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-100 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-101 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP7-102 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## verreme

^^ It's very odd that it's called A-7. I don't know why they couldn't just make it N-340, there are many other non-motorway, dual-carriageway roads in Spain with a non-autovía road number.


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## CNGL

And even there is a section of motorway near Zaragoza called... N-II! And it has white signage instead of blue :nuts::nuts::nuts:.


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## alserrod

It is weird A-7 ending at Algeciras and N-340 starting at Cadiz


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## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> ^^ It's very odd that it's called A-7. I don't know why they couldn't just make it N-340, there are many other non-motorway, dual-carriageway roads in Spain with a non-autovía road number.


A-7 is also signed from Estepona to Guadiaro, via the coastal route. This route has 13 roundabouts...


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving from Monistrol de Monserrat to Sant Sadurní d'Anoia (Spain) 7.12.2015 Timelapse x4


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## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *B40:* Olesa de Montserrat – Viladecavalls (C16) 6km (2007 to ?) – project – map


It seems that, six years later, works have finally restarted on that section:



SEIM said:


> Postejo les fotos de Sergi88.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> A10


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## verreme

^^ Finally! Boring the tunnel was the only major work left to do there. I don't think it'll take more than 2 years to finish the whole section... if they don't stop working on it again.

What's in clear danger is the next section (Terrassa-Sabadell). The only procedure left is tendering it, but the new major of Sabadell is campaigning against it (which is really stupid since this road would take _a lot_ of traffic out of his city), and the _Declaración de Impacto Ambiental_ has expired and they would have to issue a new one. I don't think we'll ever see this being built unless there's a political will at all levels (state, regional and local).


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## Farnan

verreme said:


> ^^ It's very odd that it's called A-7. I don't know why they couldn't just make it N-340, there are many other non-motorway, dual-carriageway roads in Spain with a non-autovía road number.


And I believe that the pk still mark N-340.

I think that that Estepona-Guadiaro, Marbella-Estepona and Fuengirola-Marbella should be N-340.

Personally, I think that A-7 should have followed the pk of AP-7. In the places where AP-7 exists and has full motorway characteristics, it should get another name.

And between Alicante and Silla, A-36 and A-35 (continuation of the Almansa motorway).


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## adevahi

News on SE-40: some changes in the project of the section Coria del Río-Almensilla has been approved by _Ministerio de fomento_.

Next to this section (in Almensilla) there have been works duriing all the last year, but this works already done will be completely useless without the section Almensilla-Coria del Río or even without Coria del Río-Dos Hermanas (tunnels under the river)



> Fomento aprueba definitivamente el proyecto del tramo Coria-Almensilla de la SE-40
> El Ministerio de Fomento ha aprobado "definitivamente" una modificación del proyecto técnico de la autovía metropolitana SE-40, correspondiente al tramo Coria del Río (SE-660)-Almensilla (SE-648), con un "aumento de las superficies de expropiación, imposición de servidumbres y ocupación temporal", fijando finalmente en 64.615.075 euros el coste "estimado" de este tramo de la futura ronda metropolitana de Sevilla.
> En concreto, y según una resolución de la Dirección General de Carreteras fechada el 29 de junio de 2015 y recogida por Europa Press, este departamento del Ministerio de Fomento acordaba entonces "aprobar provisionalmente el proyecto de trazado de la modificación número uno de las obras autovía SE-40, sector Suroeste, tramo Coria del Río (SE-660)-Almensilla (SE-648), con un presupuesto de ejecución material estimado en 64.615.075,13 euros".
> Esta modificación del proyecto técnico original, según dicha resolución, deriva de "un cambio en la reposición de la Cañada Real de Medellín a Isla Mayor, respecto a la prevista en el proyecto base", si bien "también es necesario reubicar el descansadero del Pozo de la Zarza".
> La modificación del proyecto base, además y como figuraba en el documento, "ocasiona un aumento de las superficies de expropiación, imposición de servidumbres y ocupación temporal tanto en fincas afectadas por el proyecto base, como a otras nuevas". Al respecto, y a efectos de las anunciadas expropiaciones, la resolución de la Dirección General de Carreteras daba cuenta de la "relación de bienes y derechos afectados" por el proyecto una vez reformulado el mismo, mencionando 36 fincas o parcelas concretas ubicadas en Palomares del Río, Coria del Río y Almensilla.
> Después del correspondiente periodo de información pública y el preceptivo informe de alegaciones, el Ministerio de Fomento, a través de una resolución recogida por Europa Press, ha resuelto "aprobar el expediente de información pública y definitivamente el proyecto de trazado" del proyecto en cuestión, anunciando así la incoación del "expediente de expropiación de los terrenos afectados".


http://andaluciainformacion.es/sevi...yecto-del-tramo-coria-almensilla-de-la-se-40/


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-66 Sierra Morena*

Some photos of A-66 through the Sierra Morena, north of Sevilla towards Mérida.

1. 

A-66-25 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

A-66-26 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

A-66-27 by European Roads, on Flickr

4.

A-66-29 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

A-66-30 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

A-66-31 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

A-66-35 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. 

A-66-37 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. 

A-66-40 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. 

A-66-42 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. 

A-66-45 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. 

A-66-46 by European Roads, on Flickr

13. 

A-66-47 by European Roads, on Flickr

14. 

A-66-50 by European Roads, on Flickr

15. 

A-66-51 by European Roads, on Flickr

16. 

A-66-54 by European Roads, on Flickr

17. 

A-66-56 by European Roads, on Flickr

18. 

A-66-58 by European Roads, on Flickr

19. 

A-66-61 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Highway89

It's noticeable how the landscape differs in Andalusia: Olive trees in the North-East, Dehesa in the North-West. In fact, if it wasn't the "Ruta de la Plata", the A-66 would've been named "Autovía de la Dehesa", at least between Seville and Salamanca.


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## Suburbanist

Some of those pics almost look like California from a distance, though Joshua trees look very different close.


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## alserrod

In Catalonia and Aragon there are olives too


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## adevahi

^^ And in the 90% of Andalusia, not only in the north east. However, the map shows the situation of "Dehesa", not olive trees.

ChrisZwolle showed the most beautiful part in my opinion of the trip Sevilla-Mérida: the part of mountain ranges (Sierra Morena is called). The rest of the trip is quite boring.


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## Peines

ChrisZwolle said:


> Well, the Madrid metropolitan motorway network is over 1,000 kilometers long. If I go there I will probably make it a 3-day stop.
> 
> The real challenge is to plan a route that covers much of the motorway system without having to backtrack all the time  Though you can probably do M-30 + M-40 + M-50 full circles in an afternoon or so. First you start on M-30, loop it, then switch over to M-40, loop it and then do the same with M-50.
> 
> I'm guessing that during weekends Madrid traffic isn't too bad. I probably have to keep away from M-30 during rush hour but otherwise I'll be okay I think.





alserrod said:


> Can any forumer from Madrid say if M-30 has more or less traffic than M-40?


I'ven stucked on both on different times of rush hours, on different zones (south, north, west, east). *M-30 & M-40 has the same traffic, but M-30 it's the most stressful*: more lanes, exits (even ABCDF EXITS), taxis, bypasses, maniacs, tunnels, speed cameras…

Outside rush hours no problems.

*Chris*, normally when i got stressed day, and i just can't sleep i usually take the car at midnight, with music, and I do a little fast trip around Madrid. Always I chose a random combination of M-50, M-40, M-30, M-11, A-6, M-607 and all M-5xx motorways and "orange" highways. I think there are the best in Madrid, "photogenic", scenic, and fun (in terms of having "fun" driving the car).

Also, as curiosity, i recommend to take a round along AZCA Tunnels: at night it's posible to drive fast at the second level of the Tunnels. It's a reminiscence of a past future of a city dominated by the car.

Also you can try the "M-20". 

EDIT: few months ago i made a video with a colleague as part of an assignment from the university… perfoming M-30, A-6, Castellana & AZCA at night…

128817198


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## adevahi

verreme said:


> We were speaking about empty motorways and pointless airports, so here's a video of... well that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Chris: Don't miss M-30. It's really something to see. And also the first kilometers of A-2. They're really cool. A-6 and M-40 would complete my to-drive list if I didn't have much more time than one day.


You can say almost the same with the 16,6 opened km of SE-40 (starting at 1:40):





Compare the traffic of SE-40 with the one of SE-30 hno:hno:


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## RV

M-30 is the busiest motorway in Europe with over 300,000 ADT. M-40 could never handle that much.

By the way, despite M-30 and M-50 not being closed, Madrid is a car paradise! Sad that the spaghetti that now makes the 15+15 or so-laned Carlos V was demolished. 

Still, Madrid is extremely easy to explore by car, with square-shaped apples and straight, wide avenues outside the old town.


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## OriK

Some advises to enjoy driving around Madrid:

I'd avoid the road on weekdays more or less from 8 to 10 and from 17:00 to 20:30... there are drivable stretches during rush hours but I'd recommend you using Waze to avoid traffic in real time instead of planning ahead. Even if you plan the route ahead, Waze can save you some jams by re-routing you through some service lanes (although it's not always possible as it's sometimes hard for the GPS to distinghish between main and service/local carriageways).

Fridays are the worst days followed by Mondays. Sunday evenings are also complicated... if it's august, the city will be yours and you can drive whenever you want.

You cannot complete the circle driving the M-50, you can do it driving M-40 and M-30 (although North M-30 is not a motorway and it does have some traffic lights, you might have to detour a little bit if you want to continue through M-30 as it connects by default with other roads if you are driving counterclockwise).

East M-30 is worth to be driven both at daylight and at night with a little bit of traffic as that hectic mass of flowing lights is hipnotic.

"A-" motorways tend to be "not-that-good" as upgrading them to current standards is not always possible due to lack of space. In these terms, A-5 is the worst and A-6 is the best.

Pay extra-attention to not overspeeding in M-30 as there are a lot of speed cams.

To understand the messy signals, you should know more or less where the main roads are and their main signposted destinations (A-1 Burgos, A-2 Zaragoza, A-3 Valencia, A-4 Córdoba, A-42 Toledo, A-5 Badajoz and A-6 A Coruña).

We all know that Spain lacks road rest areas... this is specially true in Madrid. There are no problems finding a petrol station, but if you want to rest, maybe a mall is a better option (but avoid them on weekend afternoons). Some of them are even considered touristic (like Las Rozas Village or Xanadú).

If you want to avoid backtracking by using conventional roads, ask here for advise as it might or might not worth it. Furthermore the conventional road category is a hodgepodge, some of them seem like autovías with a roundabout from time to time while some others are true regional roads.

Customs on traffic jams may vary a little bit within the same region. For example, on long merges where the lanes run together for hundred of meters there are two possible scenarios:
1) Everybody driving until the end and then merging there
2) Merge at the begining leaving most of the merging lane unused
In both scenarios zipping (one car from each side at a time) is the most common merging rule. Do whatever you see (this seems obvious, but sometimes it isn't that clear that the lanes are merging ahead and you might be surprissed by only seeing one of the lanes congested). The closer to Madrid you are, the driving is somekind more "aggressive". It also uses to be more "aggressive" at mornings than at afternoons.
It's hard to go through a congested exit if you don't know it as the queue on the right lane may last for hundreds of meters or even few kilometers. If you miss the queue, trucks often leave big spaces where you are able to get into it (poor truck drivers). The sooner you join the queue the less people will hate you silently.

Drivers go crazy when it rains. Traffic gets more than doubled under such condition (and public transportation gets more crowded than usual, nobody really understand what happens when it rains, the most accepted theory is that cars grow and reproduce with the water and they evaporate with the sun). If it snows... it's better to hire a helicopter hahahahaha


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## verreme

^^ I think traffic jam etiquette is more or less the same in all European countries except Italy.


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## sponge_bob

There is only one etiquette in Italy..._tear along the dotted line_. 

Greece and Italy are the only EU countries I hate to drive in. Spain is same as the norm...bar more motorbikes on your inside.


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## Highway89

From _The roadside rest area_:



ChrisZwolle said:


> 2015 traffic fatalities per 1 million people in the European Union. The official release date by Eurostat is this week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By _Die Welt_.


I've made this graph which shows the death rates in the Spanish Autonomous Communities and Autonomous Cities.

Green: 2010-2014 average
Blue: 2014 only.










Sources:
Number of deaths per province: http://www.dgt.es/Galerias/segurida..._de_la_Siniestralidad_Vial_2014_ACCESIBLE.pdf
Population figures: http://www.ine.es/dynt3/inebase/es/index.html?padre=517&dh=1

Castilla y León has had an average death rate of *80* in the period 2010-2014 :shocked:

However, this might be explained by the following reason: Castilla y León, despite the fact that it's actually bigger than many European countries (e.g. Hungary or Portugal), is very sparsely populated (less than 2.5 M inhabitants). At the same time, many national and international transit routes go through this region, e.g. A-1, A-2, A-6, A-52, A-62, A-66, A-231...

I guess the same could be said for Aragón (the N-II and N-232 are death traps) and Castilla-La Mancha.

Meanwhile, Ceuta and Melilla had a death rate of *0* in 2014


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## CNGL

I forgot to say a few days ago some rocks fell onto the northbound lanes of A-23 between Nueno and the Isuela gorge, crushing two cars and injuring one. This forced to a great detour: What normally is a 9 km drive between Nueno and Arguis suddenly became a 113 km trip that involved going as far West as Murillo de Gallego and taking some local roads, while the return trip was unaffected. And that is staying on paved roads, there's a shortcut that saves 22 km but involves a dirt road. Fortunately they reversed one of the southbound lanes so traffic could go in both directions. They may have cleared the road by now, but they need to secure the slope the rocks fell from before they can fully reopen the motorway.


Highway89 said:


> At the same time, many national and international transit routes go through this region [Castile and Leon], e.g. [...] A-231...


A-231 is a regional road in Northeastern Teruel province. Something appears to be wrong here. Just appears.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-66 Plasencia - Béjar*

Some photos of A-66, which I took last summer. I was driving from Marvão, Portugal to La Alberca, Spain that day, mainly to escape the heat and lack of shade in Alentejo. So it took me three days in all to drive all of A-66/AP-66 from Sevilla to Gijón.

This is between Plasencia and Puerto de Béjar (924 m), mostly in northern Extremadura.


A-66-202 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-66-204 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-66-206 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-66-207 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-66-213 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-66-215 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-66-220 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-66-222 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-66-224 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-66-227 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-66-230 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-66-234 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-66-235 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## KRX_69

*ZA324*

01.









02.









03.









04.









05.









06.









07.









:cheers:


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## KRX_69

*Quintanilha - Zamora (22/03/2016)

N122*

01.









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*A11*

28.









29.









*N122*

30.









31.









32.









33.









34.









:cheers:


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## Highway89

Thanks for the photos. I wonder why Alcañices hasn't got a bypass yet.


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## verreme

^^ There were plans to extend A-11 all the way to the Portuguese border, but they were put in a drawer and they're still there. And you know that in Spain it's either a motorway or no road at all (or high-speed rail or no rail at all for the matter...).


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## Highway89

Yep, even the bypasses of El Burgo de Osma and Ágreda (both along the same road, N-122) were built as full motorways from the beginning. Aslo Tarazona and Peñafiel would badly need a bypass.


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## alserrod

IMHO, Borja requires a bypass more than Tarazona


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## CNGL

Yup. I say Borja is known for two things: The Ecce **** and the stop sign. I'll be driving by that (in the other direction ) this Sunday.

In other news, it has been reported on Aragon TV (the regional television channel) that full works on the Figueruelas-Gallur section of the 'World's cheapest motorway' (A-68) have started. Too bad the other section (Gallur-Mallén) is having tendering troubles. And before anyone asks, our fools day is on 28 December, not today .


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## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> And you know that in Spain it's either a motorway or no road at all (or high-speed rail or no rail at all for the matter...).


I noticed some exceptions to this rule in Catalonia. Several C-roads have been upgraded to high(er) standard without becoming a full-fledged autovía.

For example C-37 Manlleu - Olot, C-37 Igualada - Manresa, C-12 south of Lleida, C-51 El Vendrell - Valls (partially), C-15 south of Igualada, some parts of C-55, etc.

These are mostly super two highways or partially / fully controlled acces, sometimes with 2+1 alternating lanes. 

By the way does C-41 Amposta - Deltebre really exist? I checked a few locations in Google Earth at it seems to be signed as TV-3454, but the Generalitat de Catalunya shows it as part of its basic network (xarxa básica).


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## CNGL

^^ It is planned to become C-41, but renumbering has not taken place yet. Thus, it is still signed as TV-3454. There are quite a few roads in Catalonia that will be renumbered any time in the future.

It was in Aragon where a renumbering has taken place recently (Autumn/Fall 2014), and Google Maps has not updated yet . For example A-1210 has been rerouted over A-1211 to Almudevar (it previously ran to N-330 near San Jorge, albeit unsigned), while its other end was truncated from A-129 near Sarinena to Granen and replaced by an extended A-1213. It also changed some formerly provincial roads to A-2xxx designations, my latest discovery is what is marked in Google Maps as HU-V-9321 is now A-2615.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I noticed some exceptions to this rule in Catalonia. Several C-roads have been upgraded to high(er) standard without becoming a full-fledged autovía.
> 
> For example C-37 Manlleu - Olot, C-37 Igualada - Manresa, C-12 south of Lleida, C-51 El Vendrell - Valls (partially), C-15 south of Igualada, some parts of C-55, etc.
> 
> These are mostly super two highways or partially / fully controlled acces, sometimes with 2+1 alternating lanes.
> 
> By the way does C-41 Amposta - Deltebre really exist? I checked a few locations in Google Earth at it seems to be signed as TV-3454, but the Generalitat de Catalunya shows it as part of its basic network (xarxa básica).


There is a good road providing local traffic. Any change would just be road name


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## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> I noticed some exceptions to this rule in Catalonia. Several C-roads have been upgraded to high(er) standard without becoming a full-fledged autovía.
> 
> For example C-37 Manlleu - Olot, C-37 Igualada - Manresa, C-12 south of Lleida, C-51 El Vendrell - Valls (partially), C-15 south of Igualada, some parts of C-55, etc.
> 
> These are mostly super two highways or partially / fully controlled acces, sometimes with 2+1 alternating lanes.


You can add to that list several high standard bypasses (i.e. without at grade interchanges and some 2+1 sections) built in the last decades in N-340, such as Vilafranca del Penedès, El Vendrell or Torredembarra, and more recently, L'Aldea and Vinaròs. The same kind of bypasses can be found in Girona and in Figueres in N-II. However through traffic now uses free section of AP-7 west of Girona instead of the 20-year old N-II bypass east of the city.

Some of them will probably be upgraded in the future to autovía standards (namely Torredembarra bypass) and thus become part of A-7, but at least for now through traffic can avoid crossing towns.


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## alserrod

And N-240 crosses all area where CNGL lives..... from corner to corner


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## Suburbanist

Is there a table with all traffic restrictions on tunnels between Spain and France?


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## ChrisZwolle

While researching CV-864, which turns out to be the same road as EL-20 around Elche, I found this.


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## adevahi

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

It doesn't seem an accident, I don't get exactly what is this... maybe police control looking for drug's trafficant?


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## alserrod

Yes, that one near the red car is a police van


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Is there a table with all traffic restrictions on tunnels between Spain and France?


There are only two international tunnels, both in Aragón

- Somport tunnel
https://www.google.es/maps/place/22...m2!3m1!1s0xd579b58068f4b23:0xf57c3d924b46e1d4

Free pass for cars (speed limit 60-80 and strongly controlled) and for freight there are five categories. Lower one can make joining all trucks together and crossing it with a fire brigade car. Strongest one is allowed only one hour whils night (or choosing via the Somport pass) and traffic will be cut while the freight is inside


- Bielsa tunnel
https://www.google.es/maps/place/Bi...2!3m1!1s0x12a80bffb6b3ab19:0x8720ca4ed32fd72e

Honestly, I do not know now..... after French controls they close 6:00 to 22:00 (and there were four hours without French police controls but Spanish police instead).

AFAIK, nowadays for cars there are no restrictions and for trucks only in one direction at the same time. They have set detectors to start with air fans before the truck arrive and it saves several minutes (average 7 minutes delay to cross it)



The next longest tunnels aren't international


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## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> While researching CV-864, which turns out to be the same road as EL-20 around Elche, I found this.


Speaking of CV-864, it's also the number of the road I took to reach the Ecce **** last Sunday. In this case CV stands for 'Camino Vecinal', not 'Comunitat Valenciana'. To avoid any confusion, I refer to that road as ZV-864, Z because it's located in Zaragoza province. Yet another example of silly Spanish road numbering.


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## Suburbanist

@CNGL, how much do people respect, or not. the "dual speed limit" in Zaragoza, 50km/h on left lane, 50km/h on left lane of major boulevards?


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## Highway89

Highway89 said:


> .
> http://i.imgur.com/3aQu1YW.jpgApart from those, the A-66 between Benavente and Zamora (49 km) also works under a shadow toll concession.* In the near future, the A-12 between Burgos and Ibeas de Juarros (4 km) will also be built following the same method.*
> .


Apparently, people in Fomento have changed their mind:


> Fomento _descarta financiar el tramo inicial de la A-12 mediante el ‘modelo alemán’_, con el que todos los gastos de la obra corren por cuenta del contratista hasta la entrega de la obra, y _opta por la licitación convencional_, según han confirmado fuentes del Ministerio.


http://www.diariodeburgos.es/notici.../inicial/a12/pagara/30/meses/obra/no/terminar




CNGL said:


> Speaking of CV-864, it's also the number of the road I took to reach the Ecce **** last Sunday. In this case CV stands for 'Camino Vecinal', not 'Comunitat Valenciana'. To avoid any confusion, I refer to that road as ZV-864, Z because it's located in Zaragoza province. Yet another example of silly Spanish road numbering.


Does the road number appear in directional signs? In Burgos and Soria, where that awkward AB-C-1234 system is used, the signs only show the names of the villages. Fortunately.


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## CNGL

They appear in directional signage, but don't have kmposts (A notable exception being CV/ZV-302 Ariza-Sisamon, which is fully signed). But, as opposed to what you said, Soria provincial routes (SO-P-xxxx) are fully signed. In Huesca we still have the HU-V-xxxx system, fortunately those roads stay unsigned.


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## Farnan

Those confusing road names are the names of provincial roads (roads of provincial authorities). And the name AA-V-XXXX and AA-P-XXXX are the older names of those roads.

In the majority of provinces that maintain those road names aren't signed.

The curiosity is how are named. Its number is based on the XX-YYY (local road) that are near it. In Castile and Leon you notice that the provincial roads and regional roads have the same number. 

A lot of provinces have changed its road system and stop using all those letters.


----------



## BasqueRoadEyes

Driving through A-8, AP-68 and other secondary roads between Bilbao, Santurtzi's Port and Tertanga, a little village near Orduña.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-66 Zamora - Benavente*

Some photos of A-66 between Zamora and Benavente. I drove on this stretch just a few weeks after it opened to traffic. It was the final segment of the 800 kilometer long 'Route 66' to open from Gijón to Sevilla.

Traffic volumes were extraordinarily low on this stretch, which is surprising given the fact that it is a major route between large cities and autonomous communities.

1. 

A-66-344 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

A-66-345 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

A-66-347 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

A-66-352 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

A-66-353 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

A-66-356 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

A-66-359 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. 

A-66-364 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. 

A-66-368 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. 

A-66-369 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. 

A-66-371 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. 

A-66-375 by European Roads, on Flickr

13. 

A-66-377 by European Roads, on Flickr

14. 

A-66-379 by European Roads, on Flickr

15. 

A-66-383 by European Roads, on Flickr

16. 

A-66-386 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## verreme

Awesome  I would not be surprised to see low AADT figures given the fact that this is one of Spain's most sparsely populated areas. Even A-7 in Almería province, which is a vital corridor for transport, looks empty when it veers away from N-340.


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## Highway89

This morning I could take some pictures of the A-12 (Pamplona-Logroño-Burgos) from a vantage point. There is a sort of "mountain" pass from which you can see the Sierra de La Demanda. Every time I pass through there I can't help gazing at the snow-capped mountains, so I decided to take some pictures before the snow melts completely.


P4259960 by J GM, en Flickr


P4259972 by J GM, en Flickr

The opposite direction.

P4259966 by J GM, en Flickr

Scallop shell decorations - the symbol of the Camino de Santiago.

P4250017 by J GM, en Flickr

From another point: Nájera in the background. And, of course, a ubiquitous Citroën C15. They're as typical a part of the Rioja landscape as vineyards.

P4250058 by J GM, en Flickr


Some regional roads in the area around Grañón, near the regional border with Castilla y León.

The breast-shaped Cerro Mirabel, which is well known among those who use the N-120/A-12 between Burgos and Logroño.

P4250151 by J GM, en Flickr


P4250116 by J GM, en Flickr


Looking North from the mirador in Grañón. I took this picture because I thought that was the Pancorbo gorge (AP-1, N-I). However, it is the Foncea gorge, located some 6 km to the East. The N-120 can be seen on the lower left corner.
P4250361 by J GM, en Flickr

The N-120.

P4250346 by J GM, en Flickr


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## alserrod

I remember, in 2001, first works-on in Navarrete by-pass......


----------



## Highway89

Autovía A-12, del Camino de Santiago. Tramo: Ibeas de Juarros-Burgos

Initial bid: 69.202.434,35 €
Deadline for submission of tenders: 30/05/2016
Date the winner tender will be chosen: 08/07/2016


General view of the project (North is ↓ )




















Detailed allignment:































































































































Some signs:


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## ChrisZwolle

Cool interchange with AP-1.

Are there still plans to renumber A-231 León - Burgos to A-12?


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## CNGL

A-12 has a weird kmposting: It starts in Pamplona and resets in Logrono. This is because when Fomento renumbered all its motorways, they thought Navarre would go with A-13 for what finally became an extension of A-12, leaving A-13 as an almost useless Eastern Logrono bypass which should have been numbered LO-xx instead. Thus, that exit 105 should be exit 185.


ChrisZwolle said:


> Are there still plans to renumber A-231 León - Burgos to A-12?


Unfortunately not, as long as it keeps maintained by the Castile and Leon government. Its number conflicts with a road in Northeastern Teruel province which is also A-231 and was numbered earlier.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Cool interchange with AP-1.
> 
> Are there still plans to renumber A-231 León - Burgos to A-12?


If only they use CL-12.... happy from my side


----------



## arctic_carlos

Construction has started in a new section of A-73. It should be finished in 2020.



cuartango said:


> Entiendo que, las obras vistas por Agarme, son para el penúltimo tramo de la A-73: *Pedrosa de Valdelucio - Bascones de Valdivia* (previsión de finalización de obras 2020), con una cantidad asignada en 2016 de 840.000 euros. Es una miseria, pero menos da una piedra.
> 
> Sin embargo, para el último tramo hay asignados más de 5 millones de € este año, ¿será para pagar expropiaciones?.
> 
> Por último, posteo el estado de los tramos, que acabo de actualizar la wikipedia
> 
> 
> subefotos
> 
> 
> [...]


More information in the regional sub-forum of Castile and Leon in the Spanish forum: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=132494902#post132494902


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is a new autovía under construction from AP-8 at Durango to Elorrio in Basque Country. It will open 'in a few weeks'. It is 6.4 km long and appears to be a new route for N-636.

http://www.deia.com/2016/05/07/bizkaia/la-autovia-gerediaga-elorrio-abrira-en-verano


----------



## alsama

^^
Gerediaga-Elorrio
http://interbiak.bizkaia.eus/ca_plantilla.asp?idMenu=8&idSubmenu=101&idImagen=6


----------



## Boltzman

On time for the Basque regional elections to be held in October


----------



## Aokromes

^^ On time.

http://www.deia.com/2015/08/03/bizk...-variante-gerediaga-elorrio-el-proximo-verano
http://mugalari.info/2014/11/26/la-...-autovia-gerediaga-elorrio-en-verano-de-2016/
http://www.naiz.eus/es/actualidad/n...stara-899-millones-a-los-vizcainos-hasta-2046


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Are there plans to extend this autovía to Beasain?


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ To Mondragón (Arrasate in Basque language). There's already a motorway under construction between Beasain and Bergara, which is partially in service (Beasain - Antzuola).

Therefore, someday it will be possible to do Durango - Bergara - Beasain driving exclusively in motorways.


----------



## Suburbanist

When was the "Ronda del Litoral" (CB-10) built in Barcelona?


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> When was the "Ronda del Litoral" (CB-10) built in Barcelona?


For Olympics (1992). I do not know if opened in 1991 or so but that one and Rond de Dalt were opened for Olympic Games.

Litoral is 2x2 and Dalt is 3x3. I remember some handouts with info about best ways to go corner to corner considering distance but also average traffic in those dates.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Not exactly.

Ronda Litoral (B-10) has two different parts. The urban part between the end of the Ramblas and the Trinitat interchange belongs to the city of Barcelona and it actually opened just before the 1992 Olympic Games (in June 1992).

However, the part between the Llobregat interchange and the end of the Ramblas belongs to the Spanish State and it was opened in different phases: the first one (Passeig Zona Franca - Ramblas) opened in 1981, while the second section (Passeig de la Zona Franca - Llobregat interchange) opened in 1983. Then it was extended to the A-2 - B-23 interchange in 1987. To distinguish it from the urban section, the State section is also known as "Cinturón Litoral" (Litoral Beltway).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The last segment of BU-30 around Burgos has been delayed from June to '4th quarter of 2016'.

http://burgosconecta.es/2016/05/08/...e-quintanaduenas-y-villalbilla-alcanza-el-82/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Several toll road concessions have been 'liquidated'. I don't know exactly what that means, they are in bankruptcy since 2013.

It concerns R-3, R-5 and AP-7 around Alicante.

http://www.diarioinformacion.com/al...rid-liquida-circunvalacion-peaje/1759922.html


----------



## alserrod

^^ 


It is not clear at all. I have read another news where it says that they will just stop all kind of operations. Does it mean they will cut motorway, no maintenance, no toll booths or so?.
Do not know, sorry


----------



## ChrisZwolle

La Verdad states that AP-7, R-3 and R-6 R-5 will cease operations and close to traffic if Fomento doesn't take it over by 1 October 2016.

http://www.laverdad.es/alicante/201...alacion-cerrara-octubre-20160511013205-v.html


----------



## CNGL

R-5. R-6 doesn't exist and was never planned with that number, but M-61. Fortunately they cancelled it due to environmental concerns. I see R-3, R-5 and the second Alicante bypass (part of AP-7) being closed down. And R-2, R-4, AP-41 and AP-7 between Cartagena and Vera following suit.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> La Verdad states that AP-7, R-3 and R-6 will cease operations and close to traffic if Fomento doesn't take it over by 1 October 2016.
> 
> http://www.laverdad.es/alicante/201...alacion-cerrara-octubre-20160511013205-v.html


LOL. This is almost unreal.

R-3 and R-5 would not be a big loss, but AP-7 is the only decent road in the area despite the low traffic volumes. The toll-free road is narrow and falling apart.


----------



## arctic_carlos

And R-3 is the only R motorway with a reasonable alignment; it would have a decent AADT if it was toll-free (that wouldn't be the case of R-4 or AP-41, for instance).


----------



## OriK

arctic_carlos said:


> And R-3 is the only R motorway with a reasonable alignment; it would have a decent AADT if it was toll-free (that wouldn't be the case of R-4 or AP-41, for instance).


Both CM-41 and AP-41 (as toll-free) would have made much more sense if they were built to share the road in the almost common section over A-42 from Cedillo to Numancia (they are not even linked!) and if it were to finish on M-407 instead of R-5... M-407 would also have made much more sense if it followed R-5 route North M-506.

That would have made it easier to finish the "Autovía de la Sagra" project linking Illescas, Yuncos and Numancia with Seseña and A-4.

Northern stretch of R-4 would have its public if it were toll-free and there were a full link with M-506 and more and better (i.e. more direct) exists along Parla, Pinto and Valdemoro. The route around there would be great for by-passing some A-42 and A-4 traffic jams, but that road wasn't designed with local traffic in mind (although I think that the ones daily suffering the jams would be the most interested in paying for avoiding them if the price were reasonable).


----------



## verreme

^^ R-4+AP-36 is a great backup route to avoid A-3 in summer. Before A-3 was built, drivers were even told to use N-IV, N-301 and N-310 to reach Valencia in busy holiday weekends. And today R-4 is by far a smoother ride than A-4.

As for CM-41, the whole area is itself a very sad story. Politicians, planners and investors who were friends with politicians and planners envisioned it to be a big suburb of Madrid just before recession burst in their faces. Hence A-40, CM-41, AP-41... now that corridor has some of the highest unemployment rates in Spain and lots of empty (or ilegally occupied), derelict housing.


----------



## Farnan

verreme said:


> LOL. This is almost unreal.
> 
> R-3 and R-5 would not be a big loss, but AP-7 is the only decent road in the area despite the low traffic volumes. The toll-free road is narrow and falling apart.


R-3 and R-5 will be a big loss, because the M-50 between M-409 and A-6 is a part of the concession.

Wait a few minutes and I explain what concession had x motorways.

The liquidation of AP-7 affects only the Circunvalation of Alacant.

These are the complete list that are risk of closure.
Concessions with Spain with risk of closure.

Concesion of Accesos de Madrid (liquidation on 1/10/2016)
Motorway R-3 (pk 0-pk 29)
Motorway R-5 (pk 0-pk 31)
Motorway M-50 (pk 55-pk 84)


Concession of Henarsa (risk of closing)
Motorway R-2 (pk 0-pk 10; pk 16-pk 61)
Motorway M-50 (pk 0-pk 17)

Concession of Autopista Madrid-Sir (risk of closing)
Motorway R-4 (pk 0-pk 52)
Motorway M-50 (pk 22-pk 45)
Motorway M-31 (pk 0-pk 4)

Concession of Eje Aeropuerto. (in liquidation, risk of closing)
Motorway M-12 (pk 0-pk 9,4)
Motorway M-13 (Junction M-110-M-12)

Concession of AUCOSTA (risk of closing)
Motorway AP-7 (pk 800-pk911)

Concession of Madrid-Levante (in liquidation, risk of closing)
Motorway AP-36 (pk 0-pk 146)
Motorway A-43 (pk 143-pk 172)

Concession of Madrid-Toledo (risk of closing).
Motorway AP-41 (pk 0-pk 49)
Motorway A-40 (pk 118-pk 141)
Motorway TO-22 (pk 0-pk 9)

Concession of CIRALSA (liquidation in 1/10/2016)
Motorway AP-7 (pk 674-pk 505)
Motorway A-7 (pk 508-pk 513)?
Road N-332 (pk 118-pk 121)?


If all those closures are true, Madrid will be heavily affected and the rest of motorway may collapse, specially M-40, M-45 and M-30, the radials (the historical ones) and A-42. 

In other words, Madrid city will return to 2003 infraestructure, with little changes (and all the problems with it).

And with the closure of radials, citizen of Madrid will have more retentions of holidays.

Casually (or not)
Barcelona will not suffer any of this closure, and it will stop being the msot congested city of Spain.

Valencia will be barely affected, as all of his motorways are free and the only tolled-one is unaffected.

Sevilla is the same history, because the only toll motorway is "the same concession as in Valencia!!!"

Malaga and Bilbao have ess congestion that the big 4, are easy avoidable and has nor isk of closures.

The Central Asturias area is unaffected.

The Zaragoza area will still have no retentions on roads, a European record.

Zaragoza is one of the few cities of that size with so little traffic congestion in Europe. The causes: little metropolitan area, complete circun valation, sufficient capacity and that outside Zaragoza's area (wich almost 90% is in the city, ultra-rare in Europe) the rest of the zone is almost a demographic desert with little exceptions.

I am not surprised if Zaragoza is the area with the best traffic after... Cordoba!!!!


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *A1051:* El Parador de las Hortichuelas-South – Cortijos de Marin 8km (2011 to _suspended_) – ? – map


Works were resumed earlier this year. :banana:

A first 2.2 km section (El Parador de las Hortichuelas-South - Las Losas) will be opened in late July 2016, while a second 5.2 km section (Las Losas - Cortijos de Marin) will follow in late 2017. The two sections have a total length of 7.4 km, according to official sources.

http://www.lavozdealmeria.es/Notici...s-de-Mar-hasta-Gran-Plaza-se-retoman-este-mes

http://sevilla.abc.es/andalucia/alm...mercial-para-verano-201602151951_noticia.html

http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/pres...as/mar/enlace/losas/garantiza/apertura/verano


----------



## pai nosso

*A-75* [Galicia region] »» Location -- June of 2016

1-


2-


3-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> Dutch motorist association ANWB 'strongly disadvises' to use a dashcam in Spain. Is this an issue in Spain? There are also three things you can do with a dashcam, some of which may or may not be legal; 1) filming, 2) publishing and 3) use it in court as evidence.


I've been using a dashcam for a year and a half and never had any kind of trouble. I've encountered several police controls and have never been told to pull over. I'm not an expert on the Spanish law, so I can't tell much apart from my own experience. 

Anyway, I've heard stories about cyclists using videos as piece of evidence against drivers not leaving enough safety distance. I've also remember reading a piece of news about bikers being fined for mounting a cam onto their helmet with a suction pad, which is unsafe according to the authorities, but as long as you keep the dashcam inside your car, I don't think that'll be a problem.


----------



## pai nosso

*A-52* [Galicia region] »» See Location -- June of 2016

1-Xinzo de Limia


2-Between Xinzo de Limia e Allariz


3-Allariz


4-North Acess to the A-52 from the city of Ourense


5-


6-Exit to the AG-53 (Santiago de Compostela)

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*Galicia Region* -- June of 2016

*1-OU-402* (between Ribadavia & Cortegada)


*2-OU-801* » border post of Ponte Barxas-São Gregório


*3-OU-801*

Source: pai nosso


----------



## Highway89

Fomento has approved the rebuilding of two interchanges, which are currently just roundabouts:

A-62/A-66 in Salamanca (31 M€): https://www.google.es/maps/@40.9557155,-5.7080141,859m/data=!3m1!1e3

A-7/A-1051 in Roquetas de Mar (9 M€): https://www.google.es/maps/@36.8188881,-2.5994592,1086m/data=!3m1!1e3

They will also enlarge a 3.8 km long stretch of the A-66 around Oviedo from 2x2 to 2x3. AADT is 54,000 vpd. Estimated cost is 20.5 M€.: https://www.google.es/maps/dir/43.4...88,-5.8090742,6787m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> Dutch motorist association ANWB 'strongly disadvises' to use a dashcam in Spain. Is this an issue in Spain? There are also three things you can do with a dashcam, some of which may or may not be legal; 1) filming, 2) publishing and 3) use it in court as evidence.


ANWB may not have deep knowledge of the Spanish law and disadvise it just in case someone got in trouble. I've never had any problem with using a camera (not a dashcam, but an actual handheld camera mounted on the windshield with a suction cup), even when being checked by the police.

What is indeed true is that filming (or taking pictures of) the police is illegal in Spain and you may be fined for doing it. However, this law is extremely difficult to enforce and I've yet to heard about anyone having any trouble because of that.


----------



## alserrod

Have travelled on AP-68. I was going to take off at Logroño but they adviced works for junction with A-68/A-12. Therefore.... for my destination I preferred to take Agoncillo exit, avoid radars and avoid to pay for traveling at 60 km/h only


----------



## rpc08

Highway89 said:


> Fomento has approved the rebuilding of two interchanges, which are currently just roundabouts:
> 
> A-62/A-66 in Salamanca (31 M€): https://www.google.es/maps/@40.9557155,-5.7080141,859m/data=!3m1!1e3


This is an amazing waste of money, not for the reformulation itself, but if we think that this interchange was opened in 2006. At the time A-62 into Salamanca was completed and A-66 south of Zamora was finished or in construction. Seriously, it shouldn't have been too hard to understand that having all the north-south traffic + some of the traffic coming into the city from the west bottled in a roundabout would be complicated. I was little more than a kid at the time and even I could see that. Not to mention the A-66 S-N end in the roundabout, a lot of accidents must have happened there.


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through Andalucía (Spain) from Sevilla to Huelva 26.05.2016 Timelapse x4 






Driving through Andalucía (Spain) from Huelva to Sevilla 26.05.2016 Timelapse x4 






Driving through Catalunya (Spain) from Sitges to Tarragona 8.12.2015 Timelapse x4 





Driving from Reus to Castellón de la Plana (Spain) 8.12.2015 Timelapse x4 





Driving through Comunitat Valenciana (Spain) from Castellón to Valencia 8.12.2015 Timelapse x4 





Driving through Costa del Sol (Spain) from Málaga to Marbella 2.04.2016 Timelapse x4


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## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *Spain* (map)
> 
> *GC3:* Arucas – Tamaraceite-West 3.5km (? to Mid 2016?) – ? – map


Opening of the eastbound carriageway in late July 2016.

Opening of the westbound carriageway delayed until a settlement is reached with the owner of a property which is to be expropriated in order to complete the construction works.

http://www.canarias7.es/articulo.cfm?id=426023

http://www.ilustradordigital.es/circunvalacion-de-las-palmas


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## ChrisZwolle

The final segment of Costera Norte in Murcia opened to traffic today. Costera Norte is a dual carriageway with roundabouts in the northern suburbs of Murcia. It's just over 13 kilometers long. 

_La Costera Norte comunica con la autovía del Mediterráneo (A-7) y la autovía Murcia-Cartagena (A-30), se han invertido 34,6 millones de euros en 12 tramos con un total de 13,3 kilómetros_

http://www.carm.es/web/pagina?IDCONTENIDO=85976&IDTIPO=10&RASTRO=c$m122,70


----------



## arctic_carlos

arctic_carlos said:


> Works were resumed earlier this year. :banana:
> 
> A first 2.2 km section (El Parador de las Hortichuelas-South - Las Losas) will be opened in late July 2016, while a second 5.2 km section (Las Losas - Cortijos de Marin) will follow in late 2017. The two sections have a total length of 7.4 km, according to official sources.
> 
> http://www.lavozdealmeria.es/Notici...s-de-Mar-hasta-Gran-Plaza-se-retoman-este-mes
> 
> http://sevilla.abc.es/andalucia/alm...mercial-para-verano-201602151951_noticia.html
> 
> http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/pres...as/mar/enlace/losas/garantiza/apertura/verano


I just found in a press article the exact lengths of both sections. It's not a big change, but I know you guys always want to have the most accurate data. :lol:



> *A1051:* El Parador de las Hortichuelas-South – Las Losas 2.2km (2011 to Late July 2016) – ? – map


*2.5km*



> *A1051:* Las Losas – Cortijos de Marin 5.2km (2011 to Late 2017) – ? – map


*4.9km*


By the way, no changes on the expected opening date of the first section:



> La Consejería de Fomento y Vivienda de la Junta de Andalucía ha concluido el extendido de la capa intermedia de aglomerado en todo el tronco del tramo de la Variante de Roquetas de Mar (Almería) que discurre desde el enlace de Las Losas hasta el centro comercial Gran Plaza, de 2,5 kilómetros de longitud lineal, y cuya *apertura al tráfico está prevista a finales del presente mes de julio*. Se trata de la capa intermedia previa a la de rodadura final, que posibilita su puesta en servicio.
> 
> http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/278...ado-tramo-variante-roquetas-hasta-gran-plaza/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

AG-14 Carballo - Baio in Galicia is planned to open on 27 July: http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...a-inaugurada-27-julio/0003_201607C12C4992.htm

This is ahead of the previous schedule of October 2016.


----------



## alserrod

I think I said nothing.

Have seen some tiny works on N-232 to upgrade to A-68 between near Pedrola and near Luceni.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*AG-55, not AG-14*

El Ideal Gallego reports that the Autovía de la Costa da Morte will be numbered AG-55 after all. Earlier government releases referred to AG-14 as the road number for the motorway.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ It makes sense. Naming the new section AG-14 would have been a mistake.

But after all I wasn't wrong when suggesting that the different naming had something to do with the fact that the new section was going to be toll free (in contrast with the old tolled section). Some residents now claim that the new section of motorway being called AG-55 means that sooner or loter toll booths will be installed. :lol:

I guess MichiH will have to edit his Spanish list again.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*SC-20 Santiago de Compostela*

The last grade-separated interchange along SC-20 was officially inaugurated today. They replaced an at-grade roundabout with an underpass. The project cost was € 6 million. Approximately 40,000 vehicles per day pass through here.

Here it is seen earlier in July when one lane in each direction was operational:


----------



## arctic_carlos

2 km of completed but unopened *CM-43* motorway near Añover de Tajo (province of Toledo) will be opened in April 2017, once a connection with regional road CM-4001 is built.

This 2x2 motorway section has been completed since 2011, but as it ends in the middle of nowhere it has remained closed since then. The construction of a 1 km section of conventional road between the current end of the motorway and CM-4001 will therefore enable the use of those last 2 km of motorway. Works on that road started in June 2016 and are supposed to last 10 months.

In the future, CM-43 will be connected to A-40, once the latter is built between Toledo and Ocaña.

https://www.google.es/maps/@39.9796255,-3.7961473,5543m/data=!3m1!1e3

In contrast, works of the 12 km section of *CM-41* between Illescas and Borox continues suspended. In fact, I just realized this motorway project exists checking on Google Earth. It's one of those absurd motorways planned in Spain during the real estate bubble times. If ever completed, it should connect with A-4 north of Aranjuez, becoming a kind of "M-60". In that case, A-40 between Maqueda and Tarancón would be "M-70". :lol:



> *Comienzan las obras de conexión de la autovía de La Sagra con la CM-4001 en Toledo*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.clm24.es/articulo/toledo...agra-cm-4001-toledo/20160622201440121219.html


----------



## MichiH

arctic_carlos said:


> 2 km of completed but unopened *CM-43* motorway near Añover de Tajo (province of Toledo) will be opened in April 2017, once a connection with regional road CM-4001 is built.
> 
> This 2x2 motorway section has been completed since 2011, but as it ends in the middle of nowhere it has remained closed since then. The construction of a 1 km section of conventional road between the current end of the motorway and CM-4001 will therefore enable the use of those last 2 km of motorway. Works on that road started in June 2016 and are supposed to last 10 months.


It seems that the 1km might have motorway standard too: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...908;74331;102567;142735;25749;230532;0;253877 :?.


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> It seems that the 1km might have motorway standard too: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...908;74331;102567;142735;25749;230532;0;253877 :?.


The press article (in Spanish) I've linked says that the 1 km road will be a conventional 1+2 road (with just an extra northbound lane for slow vehicles), with no segregated carriageways, and that the connection with CM-4001 will be just a roundabout (instead of the full interchange drawn in OSM).

I guess the whole project was originally planned as something more elaborate, with motorway standards and complex interchanges, but now they've downgraded it, just in order to bring it into service as soon and as cheaply as possible.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-66 Asturias*

Some photos of A-66 from Campomanes to Mieres. This autovía opened in 1993.

1. Pola de Lena.

A-66-435 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

A-66-436 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

A-66-437 by European Roads, on Flickr

4.

A-66-439 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. Asturias is quite green compared to farther south.

A-66-440 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. MI-3, another prefix used locally.

A-66-442 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

A-66-443 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. 

A-66-446 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. Mieres-Sur.

A-66-447 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. Okay...

A-66-448 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. AS-I is an autovía and is signed as the main route to Gijón instead of A-66 via Oviedo.

A-66-450 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. Before the AS-I interchange was built, there was an offramp to N-630 here. They moved the ramp, but the signage was left over the main carriageway.

A-66-452 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## CNGL

Don't get me started on Asturian council prefixes. There are 78 of them, as many as councils (as they call municipalities there) the Principality has.

And there's Lena river. This one doesn't freeze in Winter, as Asturias doesn't get that cold.


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## alserrod

Yeah....

National roads would be A-XX or N-XXX but regional roads can be

AS-XX for regional motorways and main roads

YY-X for local roads where YY is the municipality.

SB-3 = third road of Soto del Barco municipality (near the airport, 0,5x0,5 road or so)


AS-1 was prepared to arrive to Gijon avoiding Oviedo, being near to other cities and avoiding congestions.


----------



## Vignole

I've just purchased a new electronic toll payment device valid for all motorways of Spain, Portugal and France. It also works in a few car parks of Spain, mostly located in Catalonia.

http://www.bipdrive.com/en/


----------



## Suburbanist

Vignole said:


> I've just purchased a new electronic toll payment device valid for all motorways of Spain, Portugal and France. It also works in a few car parks of Spain, mostly located in Catalonia.
> 
> http://www.bipdrive.com/en/


Does it work for former SCUT in Portugal as well?


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## Vignole

Yes, it does


----------



## alserrod

Vignole said:


> I've just purchased a new electronic toll payment device valid for all motorways of Spain, Portugal and France. It also works in a few car parks of Spain, mostly located in Catalonia.
> 
> http://www.bipdrive.com/en/


AFAIK, somewhere in Zaragoza too but do not know where.
Not used to take parkings


----------



## Highway89

Vignole said:


> I've just purchased a new electronic toll payment device valid for all motorways of Spain, Portugal and France. It also works in a few car parks of Spain, mostly located in Catalonia.
> 
> http://www.bipdrive.com/en/


I've been using it for more than a year and it's helped me save hundreds of € in tolls thanks to the special discounts for electronic toll users on the AP-68 in La Rioja. :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-1051 around Roquetas de Mar in Andalusia will open to traffic on Friday, but only 2.5 km from Las Losas to the north side from Roquetas de Mar.


----------



## verreme

^^ Still a much needed improvement and a sign that even the most stuck motorway project in Spain is finally moving.


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## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> *29 July 2016*
> 
> A 27 kilometer extension of AG-55 _Autovía de la Costa da Morte_ was inaugurated today in Galicia. The new motorway runs from Carballo to Baio and is untolled.
> 
> http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...-inaugura-autovia/00031469792435991862927.htm


Map of the new section:



> http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/galicia/2016/07/24/00161469312241714907751.htm


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is it;

* Autovía de la Costa da Morte
* Autovía da Costa da Morte

I've seen both mentioned in the press. Is it a difference between Galician and Spanish? I thought 'da' didn't exist in Spanish, but maybe I'm wrong on that.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

da is in galician , they often mix spanish and galician using names


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## pai nosso

arctic_carlos said:


> Map of the new section:


It is only tolled from A Coruña to Carballo, right??


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is it;
> 
> * Autovía de la Costa da Morte
> * Autovía da Costa da Morte
> 
> I've seen both mentioned in the press. Is it a difference between Galician and Spanish? I thought 'da' didn't exist in Spanish, but maybe I'm wrong on that.


Yes, indeed.... Galician and Spanish.

In addition, A Coruña would be La Coruña in Spanish and Fisterra would be Finisterre (End of the Earth, 'cos it is the western point of Europe continental. It comes from Latin: Finis Terrae)


----------



## mensolú

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is it;
> 
> * Autovía de la Costa da Morte
> * Autovía da Costa da Morte


Costa Da Morte = Coast of Death. Really? Wow! Not a very inviting name (To say the least.)


----------



## alserrod

mensolú said:


> Costa Da Morte = Coast of Death. Really? Wow! Not a very inviting name (To say the least.)




Yes.... and ask sailors reason of name.... hno:hno:


----------



## arctic_carlos

Second motorway opening of the day in Spain 



ChrisZwolle said:


> *29 July 2016*
> 
> A 2.5 kilometer extension of A-1051 opened to traffic in Andalusia, Spain. It is an extension from El Parador de las Hortichuelas to north of Roquetas de Mar. The rest is still unfinished.
> 
> http://www.aopandalucia.es/principal.asp?alias=not_bus&t=5&tipo=Empresa&id=5590





> 29/07/2016 *La Junta ha puesto en servicio la variante de Roquetas de Mar hasta el centro comercial Gran Plaza*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.aopandalucia.es/principal.asp?alias=not_bus&t=5&tipo=Empresa&id=5590


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That area is one of the ugliest in Spain... Plastic foil greenhouses in a dry, unmaintained environment. I drove through such an area in Almería province, nearly all houses had metal bars in front of the windows and doors. Are they high crime areas?


----------



## alserrod

No.... but in southern Spain it is quite common to have those fenced windows. Sometimes they are quite good.



https://www.google.es/maps/@38.7372...dh42nue9a6fiYYIrMw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

(it is not sure but guessed that this is village where Quixote started their adventures. Author never said name of village and seems the nearest to descriptions)


In addition, far away, in my region, this is the prettiest one

https://www.google.es/maps/@40.5495...h9hpjtyA3Uzvfz1P0A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> That area is one of the ugliest in Spain... Plastic foil greenhouses in a dry, unmaintained environment. I drove through such an area in Almería province, nearly all houses had metal bars in front of the windows and doors. Are they high crime areas?


Ugly to the point that even the back of a fridge is pretty?









I actually conducted a poll in Twitter asking what was uglier, if Alfamen (the ugliest town in Aragon) or this, and the town won.


----------



## Suburbanist

What was the first full-highway grade connection between Madrid and the Portuguese border? Baldajoz, Verín, Vigo or Huelva? I mean, the first border point from which it was fully possible to drive to/from Madrid.


----------



## alserrod

According to wikipedia

A-5 (Badajoz), 1993 (in the border, but 1995 in Almaraz!!!!!)
A-72 (Verin) 2010
AP-9 (Vigo), 2003 (last 11 km). In addition, I do not know data of motorway link Vigo-Madrid... if later or not.
A-49 (Huelva, Ayamonte) 2001 (bridge in 1991).

Therefore, Badajoz.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Wow, that is a long time before both countries were highway-connected!


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Wow, that is a long time before both countries were highway-connected!


Madrid-France too....


Last strech of A-2 between Madrid and Zaragoza was finished in 1993 (or 1994?), to go to Barcelona and La Junquera

Via Burgos/Irun, last strech after Irurzun is recently and Madrid-Burgos was in 1992 or so (and "1st generation motorway" in both cases)

Even if a tour via Valencia, it was en 1998 when fully finished. 


Maybe in 1992.... Madrid-Alicante-Valencia-Barcelona-La Junquera...... to get 100% motorway but have to check :cheers::cheers:


----------



## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> That area is one of the ugliest in Spain... Plastic foil greenhouses in a dry, unmaintained environment. I drove through such an area in Almería province, nearly all houses had metal bars in front of the windows and doors. Are they high crime areas?


Almeria is known as the Costa Plastica to some. 

The tunnels are full of day rate illegal Morocccans doing the actual work ( for a pittance) so petty crime is high given the terrible wages the workers get and the number who do not even get work for days on end and rely on the Red Cross and Medicinos del Mundo for food and basic medical treatment. 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/feb/07/spain-salad-growers-slaves-charities


----------



## arctic_carlos

Suburbanist said:


> What was the first full-highway grade connection between Madrid and the Portuguese border? Baldajoz, Verín, Vigo or Huelva? I mean, the first border point from which it was fully possible to drive to/from Madrid.


Regarding your specific question, the most accurate answer is Badajoz in 1995, when the missing section of A-5 (Almaraz - Jaraicello) was opened (regardless of the fact that the Badajoz motorway border crossing itself had been opened in 1993).



alserrod said:


> AP-9 (Vigo), 2003 (last 11 km). In addition, I do not know data of motorway link Vigo-Madrid... if later or not.


Incorrect. You've forgotten the existence of untolled motorway A-55 (Vigo - Tuy), which was completed in 1993. Tolled AP-9 was actually opened in 2003, but the border crossing is still part of A-55.

A-52 (Vigo - Benavente) was completed in 1998, so that's the year when Madrid and the Portuguese border in Tuy were first connected via a full motorway.


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> That area is one of the ugliest in Spain... Plastic foil greenhouses in a dry, unmaintained environment. I drove through such an area in Almería province, nearly all houses had metal bars in front of the windows and doors. Are they high crime areas?


As other forumers have said, it's very common to see those fenced windows in southern Spain. 

As houses are usually built directly next to the sidewalks, without small gardens or lawns separating the buildings from the street, people want to ensure their houses are somehow protected from thefts or trespassing. Due to climate conditions in summer, it's very normal to leave windows opened at night, so these bars are a necessary tool of protection.

Besides, there were some racial riots in the area of El Ejido (not far from Almería) 15 years ago. It's not common at all in Spain to see this kind of conflicts, I guess it was related with the African workers of the greenhouses, but I don't remember exactly what happened.


----------



## arctic_carlos

Some pictures of the new section of *AG-55* on its opening day:





































Source: http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...-inaugura-autovia/00031469792435991862927.htm


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## Highway89

^^ It seems that they keep on using dashed shoulder lines instead of solid. I've already seen some older motorways painted with the new style of lines and arrows, e.g.:
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.2730...4!1svwaKnrFZsR8C79V0rL7iAQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656



ChrisZwolle said:


> Is it;
> 
> * Autovía de la Costa da Morte
> * Autovía da Costa da Morte
> 
> I've seen both mentioned in the press. Is it a difference between Galician and Spanish? I thought 'da' didn't exist in Spanish, but maybe I'm wrong on that.


"Da" is indeed Galician, but in Spanish it's common to use the local place names when they're either similar to the Spanish equivalent or widely known (such as Donostia for San Sebastián). The name in Spanish would be "Autovía de la Costa de la Muerte", but it sounds unnatural.



ChrisZwolle said:


> That area is one of the ugliest in Spain... Plastic foil greenhouses in a dry, unmaintained environment. I drove through such an area in Almería province, nearly all houses had metal bars in front of the windows and doors. Are they high crime areas?


From all the classic Spanish literature I've read, I gather those bars have traditionally been put there to keep unmarried women's virtue safe from despicable men, if you know what I mean


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-7 Valencia - Xàtiva*

I found out I had also filmed A-7 from Valencia to Xàtiva. I was surprised by the fact it had six lanes all the way to Xàtiva. There's quite a bit of truck traffic there.


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## alserrod

For this weekend (and surely for 12-15th August), Traffic administration gives these recommendations for alternative routes

http://www.dgt.es/Galerias/el-trafi...PrimeroAgosto_ItinerariosAlternativos_III.pdf


----------



## Farnan

alserrod said:


> Madrid-France too....
> 
> 
> Last strech of A-2 between Madrid and Zaragoza was finished in 1993 (or 1994?), to go to Barcelona and La Junquera
> 
> Via Burgos/Irun, last strech after Irurzun is recently and Madrid-Burgos was in 1992 or so (and "1st generation motorway" in both cases)
> 
> Even if a tour via Valencia, it was en 1998 when fully finished.
> 
> 
> Maybe in 1992.... Madrid-Alicante-Valencia-Barcelona-La Junquera...... to get 100% motorway but have to check :cheers::cheers:


Autovia A-2 (then N-II) opened in Aragon during December 1990 except the stretch west of La Almunia who opened in 1991 alongside some section on Medinaceli and in Guadalajara province.


----------



## alserrod

Farnan said:


> Autovia A-2 (then N-II) opened in Aragon during December 1990 except the stretch west of La Almunia who opened in 1991 alongside some section on Medinaceli and in Guadalajara province.


Strongly sure that it was in December 1991. It wasn't finished but they wanted to avoid congestion. Therefore, they opened and.... sometimes people didn't know which direction take (and went to the opposite direction) or which exit get out and went ahead for a while. In some months all solved but a messy at first.

Alto de la Perdiz (La Almunia west - Morata) opened later..... but surely rest in December 1991. My family comes from that area and used too much.


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *GC3:* Arucas – Tamaraceite-West 3.5km (? to Late July 2016) [direction Tamaraceite] – ? – map


It has been announced it will open on the 4th of August.

http://www.eldiario.es/canariasahor...ircunvalacion-Palmas-proximo_0_542446393.html


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## x-type

people, I am searching for one spot at urban motorway system of Barcelona. i remember that there were signed city limits between Barcelona and Badalona. it was on B20, C31 or even B10. does somebody know where could i have seen it? (it was back in year 1999, so not very recently)


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## arctic_carlos

There are no city limits between Barcelona and Badalona, as the municipalities of Santa Coloma de Gramenet and Sant Adrià del Besòs are located between both cities:










In any event, Badalona city limits could only be signed in B-20 and in C-31, as B-10 doesn't go through Badalona (it only goes through Barcelona and Sant Adrià del Besòs municipalities).


----------



## x-type

i know those things, but i remember the white table beside the motorway, indicating Barcelona in one, and Badalona in another direction. it was really weird because i never saw it out of state roads.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ You mean something like this?

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.7180...4!1swKzwmxSr1eQugj728NdvdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The name of two towns can appear together when one is just next to the other, but in the area of Barcelona is not usually shown like that, as there are hundreds of streets shared between different municipalities (for example one side of a street can be part of Barcelona and the other side belong to L'Hospitalet de Llobregat).

Maybe the one you saw in Badalona (I guess in C-31, formerly called A-19) was removed when someone realized there's no shared border between Barcelona and Badalona. :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N-636 Gerediaga - Elorrio*

The new autovía (6.4 km) from AP-8 at Gerediaga to Elorrio in Basque Country will open to traffic on 8 August.


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *GC3:* Arucas – Tamaraceite-West 3.5km (? to Late July 2016) [direction Tamaraceite] – ? – map





> *La circunvalación abre con el 82% de su trayecto ejecutado*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La cuarta fase de la circunvalación se pone en uso este jueves de manera parcial:de los 6,8 kilómetros de longitud, se abre un tramo de 4,5 kilómetros. Y de éste, sólo estará operativo el trayecto que va desde Arucas a la capital porque el sentido contrario está pendiente de una expropiación. Con ello, el nivel de ejecución de la vía está a un 82%, según el Gobierno de Canarias.
> 
> http://www.canarias7.es/articulo.cfm?id=430019


4.5km of the eastbound carriageway are going to be opened today.

The remaining 2.3km of GC-3 the article talks about must be the duplication of current GC-20 between Cardones and GC-2.

According to Google Maps, there are already some works going on there.

https://www.google.es/maps/@28.1207726,-15.5038518,3190m/data=!3m1!1e3

More picures here:










http://www.laprovincia.es/multimedi...1-66357-obras-circunvalacion-cuarta-fase.html



















http://www.laprovincia.es/multimedi...ase-circunvalacion-entre-tenoya-hornillo.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*S-30 Santander*

Some photos of S-30 around Santander in Cantabria. This motorway opened in two phases in 2008 and 2012.

1. Coming from A-67.

S-30-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. It rained nearly non-stop on my drive from Gijón to San Sebastián. I was lucky to hit some dry weather around Santander so I could take some photos.

S-30-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

S-30-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. S-30 has a few short tunnels.

S-30-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. Revilla.

S-30-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

S-30-9 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

S-30-11 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. S-30 becomes S-10 shortly after this exit.

S-30-13 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

I have a question about the _carreteras comarcales_. Spanish Wikipedia doesn't seem to be conclusive about it.

It appears they were introduced simultaneously with the carreteras nacionales in 1941. But when were they discontinued? Were they all transferred to the autonomous communities at the same time? Or did autonomous communities each adopted them separately - at different times? Apparently there was a big transfer of roads from the national network to the autonomous communities in 1988, but the C-roads appeared on most maps until the early 2000s. Or were they transferred in 1988, but not renumbered until later? Possibly at different dates, depending on the autonomous community?


----------



## CNGL

They were all transferred in 1988, with some autonomous communities such as Aragon renumbering them quickly while some others took their time. Catalonia for example renumbered a bunch of them (What are now the first level regional roads) in 2000, but there are many C-roads left (from the Plan Peña, not the current numbering that also happens to be C-xxx) that are planned to be renumbered in a second round (which should put up the second level regional network) which is yet to happen. Murcia retained C-roads until a few years ago, I don't know exactly when they got renumbered but definitely after 2006 since I was there that year and RM-19 was still C-3319.


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> I have a question about the _carreteras comarcales_. Spanish Wikipedia doesn't seem to be conclusive about it.
> 
> It appears they were introduced simultaneously with the carreteras nacionales in 1941. But when were they discontinued? Were they all transferred to the autonomous communities at the same time? Or did autonomous communities each adopted them separately - at different times? Apparently there was a big transfer of roads from the national network to the autonomous communities in 1988, but the C-roads appeared on most maps until the early 2000s. Or were they transferred in 1988, but not renumbered until later? Possibly at different dates, depending on the autonomous community?


_Carreteras comarcales_, along with three-digit provincial roads (e.g. B-123 for Barcelona, or BU-530 for Burgos), which were also managed by the central government, were for the most part transferred to the autonomous communities between 1980 and 1984:

Basque Country, Catalonia - 1980
Galicia - 1982
Rest of the Autonomous Communities - 1984
Autonomous cities (Ceuta and Melilla) - 1996

However, some of them remained a part of the Red de Interés General del Estado (RIGE). For instance, several accesses to ports and airports were managed by the central government, despite being numbered as _comarcal/provincial_ roads. E.g., Z-300 was the access road to the airport of Zaragoza and it was managed by the central government. Later, in 1988, these roads were renumbered to N-XXX (Z-300 became N-125).

Anyway, although they were transferred in the early 1980s, many of them kept the old C-XXX number for some time. Later, some regions decided to change the C- prefix for the regional prefix keeping the number (LR, CL, NA...) or changed both the prefix and the number.

Sources:
http://boe.es/legislacion/legislaci..._field[1]=ref&sort_order[1]=asc&accion=Buscar

http://www.seap.minhap.es/web/areas/politica_autonomica/traspasos/reales_dec_traspasos.html

http://boe.es/boe/dias/1988/07/30/pdfs/A23514-23524.pdf


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Thanks guys. So the renumbering process (at least administratively) lasted from 1989 (País Vasco) to 2009 (Catalunya). 

The last PDF is also available as plain text: http://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1988-18844 It contains the old A-numbering of 1988, including A-17 and A-19, which are the only A-numbers to have been decomissioned entirely. 

What did the 1988 transfer do for road numbering and ownership? Apparently this was the year when a massive amount of roads were downloaded to the autonomous communities, as the RCE declined from 81,000 km to 20,000 km. But the documents posted above indicated that the carreteras comarcales were transferred already before that, between 1980 and 1984.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Don't forget A-16 and A-18, which are no longer part of the A-xx network. I don't know if they were originally part of the RIGE and then were transferred to the Catalan government and decommissioned, but now they're part of C-32, C-58 and C-16. They don't appear in that list because they had not been built in 1988 (although I think A-18 between Barcelona and Terrassa, now C-58, already existed then).


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> Thanks guys. So the renumbering process (at least administratively) lasted from 1989 (País Vasco) to 2009 (Catalunya).
> 
> The last PDF is also available as plain text: http://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1988-18844 It contains the old A-numbering of 1988, including A-17 and A-19, which are the only A-numbers to have been decomissioned entirely.
> 
> What did the 1988 transfer do for road numbering and ownership? Apparently this was the year when a massive amount of roads were downloaded to the autonomous communities, *as the RCE declined from 81,000 km to 20,000 km.* But the documents posted above indicated that the carreteras comarcales were transferred already before that, between 1980 and 1984.


According to this PDF (page 3), the decline happened between 1980 and 1985: http://i.imgur.com/d3FViSR.jpg



Some history about Spanish roads:

In 1941, the _Plan Peña_ introduced 3 types of roads which were managed by the central government:

Carreteras nacionales: N-XXX
Carreteras comarcales: C-XXX
Carreteras locales: PC-XXX (PC = Provincial code, see the list)

There were also other minor roads which were managed by the provincial/island governments:
Carretera provincial: PC-P-XXXX
Camino vecinal: PC-V-XXXX (Some provinces used CV-XXX instead, not to be confused with the current prefix for Comunitat Valenciana).


In 1977, the road network managed by the central government was divided into three groups, depending on the importance of the roads:
Red Nacional Básica
Red Nacional Complementaria
Red Regional

See this PDF for the list of the roads that were part of the _Red Nacional Básica_ and _Red Nacional Complementaria_. _Red Regional_ is not detailed: http://boe.es/boe/dias/1977/11/19/pdfs/A25343-25367.pdf
Plain text version (list not shown): http://boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1977-27384


Between 1980 to 1984, some roads managed by the central government were transferred to the Autonomous Regions.

Once the process finished, a new law was approved in 1988 (which Chris and I have posted above): http://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1988-18844

The second paragraph of the law says:


> *Finalizado el proceso de traspaso de funciones y servicios del Estado a las Comunidades Autónomas en materia de carreteras*, y en avanzado desarrollo el Plan General de Carreteras 1984-1991, resulta necesario revisar y actualizar el régimen vigente en la materia ...


It means that _the process of transferring roads to the autonomous regions has finished_. Hence, all the roads that were still managed by the central government were renumbered to N-XXX (national) roads, even those that were C-XXX or PC-.

Some of these "new national roads" created from C-XXX or PC-XXX roads are still substandard, e.g. N-260.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Don't forget A-16 and A-18, which are no longer part of the A-xx network. I don't know if they were originally part of the RIGE and then were transferred to the Catalan government and decommissioned, but now they're part of C-32, C-58 and C-16. They don't appear in that list because they had not been built in 1988 (although I think A-18 between Barcelona and Terrassa, now C-58, already existed then).


C-58 opened in 1978, but apparently was not part of the national road network.

It's interesting that these decomissioned A-numbers were never reused in the Spanish motorway network. A-16, A-17, A-18 and A-19 all do not exist, while other numbers in this range do exist today, except for A-20. Was A-20 ever planned?


----------



## CNGL

A-20 was one of the proposed numbers for the now cancelled Guadalajara-Tarancon motorway, the other being A-28.

Another A number decomissioned was A-10 which became M-11. However unlike the A-16 to A-19 range it was then reused by Navarre.

I think A-19 should have remained part of the RCE and made toll-free, it would be part of A-2 now.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Thanks guys. So the renumbering process (at least administratively) lasted from 1989 (País Vasco) to 2009 (Catalunya).
> 
> The last PDF is also available as plain text: http://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1988-18844 It contains the old A-numbering of 1988, including A-17 and A-19, which are the only A-numbers to have been decomissioned entirely.
> 
> What did the 1988 transfer do for road numbering and ownership? Apparently this was the year when a massive amount of roads were downloaded to the autonomous communities, as the RCE declined from 81,000 km to 20,000 km. But the documents posted above indicated that the carreteras comarcales were transferred already before that, between 1980 and 1984.



In the case of Aragon, it was in the early 1990 when new numbers applied to all regional roads. They had only two levels. C-XXX and Z(or HU or TE-XXX). 

then they made A-XXX in orange for main regional network (34 roads), A-1XXX in green for county roads and A-2XXX for local roads. It just remain the motorway ARA-A-1 opened in 2008.

Some national roads were "upgraded" in name but not in road..... 

and the example of N-125... later the biggest logistic platform in southern Europe was built by regional government and that part of N-125 became A-220. Therefore, N-125 starts in km.0 because no new numbers where applied.


----------



## verreme

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Don't forget A-16 and A-18, which are no longer part of the A-xx network. I don't know if they were originally part of the RIGE and then were transferred to the Catalan government and decommissioned, but now they're part of C-32, C-58 and C-16. They don't appear in that list because they had not been built in 1988 (although I think A-18 between Barcelona and Terrassa, now C-58, already existed then).


AFAIK C-58 opened as *B-29*, not A-18. At least that says a map of mine from 1988.


----------



## CNGL

alserrod said:


> and the example of N-125... later the biggest logistic platform in southern Europe was built by regional government and that part of N-125 became A-220. Therefore, N-125 starts in km.0 because no new numbers where applied.


A-*1*20. A-220 is a totally unrelated road that was C-220 (La Almunia-Carinena) and C-221 (Carinena-Belchite, although I don't think the strecht until Fuendetodos can be considered a road).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some more about the Catalunya road numbering...

There are still some 3-digit C-roads, for example this C-149a near Solsona. As I understand, they are part of the 'xarxa comarcal' (comarcal network). 

Are these former carreteras comarcales as they existed before 1980? And who owns and operates it, Catalunya or the comarca? They appear to be numbered regionally, not by comarca. There aren't a whole lot of comarcal roads according to Catalan Wikipedia. What is their function besides the autonomous / provincial roads?

From the photo below, I take it that the 'a' suffix means 'antigua' (old)?


----------



## verreme

^^ As for the suffixes, they don't mean anything in particular. Sometimes there's an *a*, sometimes a *b* or sometimes a *z*. There's a reason behind the choice but it's not a word beginning with that letter.

Catalan _comarques_ don't manage any roads. These 3-digit C-roads are managed by Generalitat de Catalunya, which is the regional government. In Catalonia, the smallest entity that manages roads, apart from the municipalities, are _Diputacions_ (provincial administration).


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## CNGL

In Catalonia, a, b, c, etc. are used for sections of old C roads that are yet to be renumbered, while z means an old, bypassed alignment of a road. In the rest of Spain, such a road would be suffixed a. I've actually driven a road suffixed b, that's it, an old alignment of an old alignment :nuts:. And it is fully signed as such! (for reference, it was N-330b through Candanchu ski resort, bypassed in early 90s and then both were bypassed by the Somport tunnel).

And, as verreme said, the provincial _diputaciones_ (this is the word in Spanish) manage some roads. Some, such as Huesca, still retain the old numbering, while others have renumbered theirs. Zaragoza, for example, brought up a numbering that uses only three digits instead of four, as there aren't that many provincial roads. They now use CV-xxx, but I refer to those as ZV-xxx in order not to confuse them with roads on the Valencian community.


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## ChrisZwolle

Spanish route numbering never ceases to amaze 

Do other regions also have 3-digit C-roads that have yet to be renumbered? Or is it a Catalan thing. 

Apparently the Catalan renumbering occured in 2001, not 2009. Perhaps 2009 was the year when it was officially defined.


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## Highway89

In La Rioja, the renumbering process began in 1991 with the _Ley de Carreteras de la Comunidad Autónoma de La Rioja_.

PDF with the list of new road numbers: http://boe.es/boe/dias/1991/04/27/pdfs/A13420-13432.pdf
Plain text version (list not shown): http://boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1991-10293


However, I remember seeing some old kilometer posts with the C- numbers in green background as late as 2006 or 2007, even though such roads didn't "legally" exist in La Rioja since 1991.

What I mean is, that it took at least 15 years for our regional road authority to _physically_ renumber all the roads. They took it slowly.


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> Spanish route numbering never ceases to amaze
> 
> Do other regions also have 3-digit C-roads that have yet to be renumbered? Or is it a Catalan thing.


In Catalonia there are even some 4-digit C-roads with a suffix. :lol:

For example C-1412, which is divided in C-1412a (Jorba - Ponts) and C-1412b (Ponts - Tremp). With 113 km in total, it's somehow an important road, so I don't understand why it's not part of the main network.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Apparently the Catalan renumbering occured in 2001, not 2009. Perhaps 2009 was the year when it was officially defined.


The renumbering of the main network was approved in 1999 but it wasn't implemented until 2001. Then the renumbering of other roads (such as the one I've mentioned) was approved in 2009, but the change of government in 2010 stopped its implementation, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Spanish route numbering never ceases to amaze


An A Road may not be a motorway if in Andalucia. Or it may.
A B Road may be a motorway in Barcelona
A C road may be a Motorway..or a goat track..in Catalonia
A Z road is a Motorway in Zaragoza...the Z-40 is one for sure.. 

Simple in its own utterly mad way.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*El Rocío*

I stumbled across this town called El Rocío (pop. 1655) in Huelva province. Every single street is unpaved! Why is that? It looks like an old west town minus the cars.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Probably it has something to do with this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romería_de_El_Rocío

Every year in May, almost a million pilgrims go to El Rocío for the "romería", most of them in horse-drawn carriages.


----------



## Highway89

sponge_bob said:


> An A Road may not be a motorway if in Andalucia. Or it may.
> A B Road may be a motorway in Barcelona
> A C road may be a Motorway..or a goat track..in Catalonia
> A Z road is a Motorway in Zaragoza...the Z-40 is one for sure..
> 
> Simple in its own utterly mad way.


An A road may be a motorway, a dual carriageway or a single carriageway (in Álava, Andalusia and Aragon).
A one-digit road may not be a motorway (Me-1 in Menorca).
A four-digit road may be a motorway (A-8058 in Seville).

As regards prefixes, let's check every letter of the alphabet:


Code:


A - Autopista/autovía, Andalusia, etc ✓
B - Barcelona ✓
C - Catalonia ✓
D - ×
E - Eivissa (Ibiza) ✓
F - ×, but FE 
G - ×, but GC, GJ, GM, GR...
H - Huelva ✓
I - ×, but IA (for Illas, Asturias)
J - Jaén ✓
K - × 
L - ×, but LL, LE...
M - Madrid ✓
N - Nacional ✓
O - Oviedo ✓
P - Palencia ✓
Q - ×, but QU (Quirós, Asturias)
R - Radial ✓
S - Santander ✓
T - Tarragona ✓
U - ×
V - Valencia ✓
W - ×
X - ×
Y - ×
Z - Zaragoza ✓

To be fair, the road numbering in Asturias helps completing the list :cheers:

Check the last half of this PDF if you want to have a laugh seeing how they re-use prefixes that are already used in other parts of Spain: https://www.asturias.es/webasturias...IONAL/BIENES/Inventario_red_carreteras_PA.pdf




ChrisZwolle said:


> I stumbled across this town called El Rocío (pop. 1655) in Huelva province. Every single street is unpaved! Why is that? It looks like an old west town minus the cars.


As arctic_carlos has said, it's the Aldea del Rocío, a village built around the chapel of the Virgen del Rocío. Here's a little bit of history about it. It's in Spanish, but there are some old photos: http://www.hermandadrociosevilla.com/EL ROCIO/PAGINAS OK/Evolucion.htm

And you're right, part of the US "western" culture actually comes from that area of Spain, the mouth of the Guadalquivir river. Words like rodeo, mustang (mesteño), buckaroo (vaquero), ranch (rancho)... Here's an article about it: http://vaqueros.org/vaquero-heritage/


----------



## adevahi

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Probably it has something to do with this:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romería_de_El_Rocío
> 
> Every year in May, almost a million pilgrims go to El Rocío for the "romería", most of them in horse-drawn carriages.





ChrisZwolle said:


> I stumbled across this town called El Rocío (pop. 1655) in Huelva province. Every single street is unpaved! Why is that? It looks like an old west town minus the cars.


C'mon, I thought every spanish person knew the reason but probably is not like that... I live 50 minutes far from there and I have been a hundred times, so I can tell you that there is a good reason, apart of the fact that is much more beautiful to keep in this way and because it's a iconic place with its famous pilgrimage done mainly with animals. But that is not the reason... the real reason is just because of it location: next to a national park (Doñana) and inside a protected area of the surroundings of the national park.

By the way, the real population I think it's much smaller. Most of the houses are for people who use it only during the weekends, is a popular place for resting during the year except the week of the pilgrimation.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ What does being close to a national park have to do with having unpaved roads?


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## Boltzman

Highway89 said:


> Check the last half of this PDF if you want to have a laugh seeing how they re-use prefixes that are already used in other parts of Spain: https://www.asturias.es/webasturias...IONAL/BIENES/Inventario_red_carreteras_PA.pdf


CÑ-6 :crazy:


----------



## CNGL

^^ The first thing I thought when I saw that prefix was '¡coño!' (WTF!, literally the c word) :lol:.


Highway89 said:


> In La Rioja, the renumbering process began in 1991 with the _Ley de Carreteras de la Comunidad Autónoma de La Rioja_.
> 
> PDF with the list of new road numbers: http://boe.es/boe/dias/1991/04/27/pdfs/A13420-13432.pdf
> Plain text version (list not shown): http://boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1991-10293
> 
> 
> However, I remember seeing some old kilometer posts with the C- numbers in green background as late as 2006 or 2007, even though such roads didn't "legally" exist in La Rioja since 1991.
> 
> What I mean is, that it took at least 15 years for our regional road authority to _physically_ renumber all the roads. They took it slowly.


Interesting, according to this the section of NA-134 that dips into Rioja (or better said, where Rioja crosses the Ebro river) is officially LR-131 like the road through that industrial estate East of Logrono but signed NA-134. I drove that road last year.


----------



## CNGL

Okay, I've compiled a full Asturian prefix list. In the PDF linked by Highway89 some numbers are missing, but it appears they exist and that some roads are maintained by the region (Since it says _Red Local 2º orden_ I guess it would be the province who would be in charge of them instead of the region, but since Asturias is only one province...) and some by the councils. Also note that the name of some councils don't match that of their capitals, so I've added these for reference.


Code:


AE: Aller (Cabañaquinta)
ALL: Allande (Pola de Allande)
AM: Amieva (Sames)
AV: Avilés (Fomento uses AI instead as AV means Ávila)
BE: Belmonte de Miranda
BI: Bimenes (Also means Bilbao and Biscay)
BO: Boal
CA: Cabrales (Carreña, also means Cádiz and Cantabria, the only road with this prefix is council maintained (And does reach Cantabria!))
CB: Cabranes (Santa Eulalia de Cabranes)
CD: Candamo
CE: Carreño (Candás, also means Ceuta)
CL: Colunga (Also means Castile and León)
CN: Cangas del Narcea
CÑ: Coaña
CO: Cangas de Onís (Also means Cordova)
CP: Castropol (Also means provincial road as used by some provinces)
CR: Caravia (Prado, unused, also means Ciudad Real)
CS: Caso (Campo de Caso, also means Castelló de la Plana)
CT: Castrillón (Piedras Blancas, also means Cartagena)
CU: Cudillero (Also means Cuenca)
CV: Corvera de Asturias (Nubledo, also means Valencian Community and neighborhood road (Or 'goat path' as I say) as used by some provinces)
DE: Degaña (Unused)
FR: El Franco (La Caridad)
GI: Gijón (Fomento uses GJ instead as GI means Girona, also means Guipuscoa)
GO: Gozón (Luanco)
GR: Grado (Also means Granada)
GS: Grandas de Salime
IA: Illas (Callezuela)
IB: Ibias (San Antolín de Ibias, unused, also means Balearic Islands)
ILL: Illano (Unused)
LA: Langreo
LL: Llanera (Posada de Llanera, also means Lleida)
LLN: Llanes
LN: Lena (Pola de Lena, complete with Lena river, not to be confused with the Siberian one)
LV: Laviana (Pola de Laviana)
MI: Mieres
MO: Morcín (Santa Eulalia de Morcín)
MU: Muro de Nalón (Also means Murcia)
NA: Nava (Also means Navarre)
NO: Noreña (The only road with this prefix is council maintained)
NV: Navia
ON: Onís (Benia de Onís, unused)
OV: Oviedo (Fomento uses just O, the former plate code)
PA: Peñamellera Alta (Alles, also means Pamplona)
PB: Peñamellera Baja (Panes)
PE: Pesoz (Unused)
PI: Piloña (Infiesto)
PO: Ponga (San Juan de Beleño, also means Pontevedra)
PR: Proaza
PV: Pravia
QU: Quirós
RA: Ribera de Arriba (Soto de Ribera, unused)
RD: Ribadedeva (Colombres)
RE: Las Regueras (Santullano)
RI: Riosa (La Vega)
RS: Ribadesella
SA: Santo Adriano (Villanueva, unused, also means Salamanca)
SB: Soto del Barco
SC: Sobrescobio (Rioseco)
SD: Somiedo (Pola de Somiedo)
SE: Santa Eulalia de Oscos (Also means Seville)
SI: Siero (Pola de Siero)
SL: Salas
SM: San Martín del Rey Aurelio
SO: San Martín de Oscos (Unused, also means Soria)
SR: Sariego (Vega)
ST: San Tirso de Abrés
TA: Taramundi (Unused)
TC: Tapia de Casariego
TE: Teverga (La Plaza, also means Teruel if it exists at all)
TI: Tineo
VA: Valdés (Luarca, also means Valladolid)
VE: Vegadeo (The two roads with this prefix are council maintained)
VO: Villanueva de Oscos (The two roads with this prefix are council maintained)
VV: Villaviciosa
VY: Villayón
YT: Yernes y Tameza (Villabre, unused)

And to top that, Asturias has also a section of the proposed Badajoz-Granada motorway (A-81)!!! Now that is crazy.


----------



## sponge_bob

Well done.

What happens when you double up for Motorway grade roads only.?

AA-
BB-
....
ZZ-



Highway89 said:


> ).
> 
> As regards prefixes, let's check every letter of the alphabet:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> A - Autopista/autovía, Andalusia, etc ✓
> B - Barcelona ✓
> C - Catalonia ✓
> D - ×
> E - Eivissa (Ibiza) ✓
> F - ×, but FE
> G - ×, but GC, GJ, GM, GR...
> H - Huelva ✓
> I - ×, but IA (for Illas, Asturias)
> J - Jaén ✓
> K - ×
> L - ×, but LL, LE...
> M - Madrid ✓
> N - Nacional ✓
> O - Oviedo ✓
> P - Palencia ✓
> Q - ×, but QU (Quirós, Asturias)
> R - Radial ✓
> S - Santander ✓
> T - Tarragona ✓
> U - ×
> V - Valencia ✓
> W - ×
> X - ×
> Y - ×
> Z - Zaragoza ✓


I expect Spain can deliver.


----------



## verreme

^^ Well the quirkiest road number for a Spanish motorway may be ARA-A1.

You might also like the fact that Ma-20 is not the same road as MA-20 . We also have an E-20 that's not in Denmark or Sweden.


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## sponge_bob

verreme said:


> You might also like the fact that Ma-20 is not the same road as MA-20 .


One is the Palma Bypass IIRC...and the other?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Former A-7 through Málaga.


----------



## CNGL

sponge_bob said:


> Well done.
> 
> What happens when you double up for Motorway grade roads only.?
> 
> AA-
> BB-
> ....
> ZZ-
> 
> 
> 
> I expect Spain can deliver.


There is AA-11 in the plans . CC means Cáceres. LL means Lleida. And there's VV listed among the Asturian prefixes, though not motorways.


verreme said:


> ^^ Well the quirkiest road number for a Spanish motorway may be ARA-A1.
> 
> You might also like the fact that Ma-20 is not the same road as MA-20 . We also have an E-20 that's not in Denmark or Sweden.


How about A-231 motorway and A-231 road? Though I consider the latter to be the sole A-231 .


----------



## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Former A-7 through Málaga.



So a simple clear instruction EG ...._follow the Ma-20 to the airport_....could cause lots of GPS induced pain.


----------



## arctic_carlos

CNGL said:


> In Catalonia, a, b, c, etc. are used for sections of old C roads that are yet to be renumbered, while z means an old, bypassed alignment of a road. In the rest of Spain, such a road would be suffixed a.


Another problem regarding road numbering in Catalonia: when the renumbering of old C roads took place, they didn't renumbered the old alignments that had already been bypassed at that time. For instance:

Old C-246 between Sitges and Cubelles was bypassed by a new alignment of the road in the 80s, and the old road became C-246a. When in 2001 C-246 became C-31, C-246a wasn't changed to C-31a or C-31z (applying the new criteria), and still today it's numbered C-246a. :bash:


----------



## sotonsi

Presumably Catalonia would have a good sort out of road numbering if it becomes independent? There won't be the political justification for numbering as much as possible as 'C-xxx' anymore.


----------



## arctic_carlos

sotonsi said:


> Presumably Catalonia would have a good sort out of road numbering if it becomes independent? There won't be the political justification for numbering as much as possible as 'C-xxx' anymore.


Allegedly all main roads (including motorways) would be renumbered as "C-xx" roads in case of Catalonia becoming independent (or if all roads are transferred to the Catalan government). For instance, there are roads like C-25 or C-31 which are already prepared and don't begin with a 0 km post, but have instead a higher number (km 83 in C-25 and km 136 in C-31).

That's because C-25 would absorb A-2 between the border with Aragon and Cervera and C-31 would do the same with N-340 between the border with the Comunitat Valenciana and El Vendrell (and probably also with N-II between Montgat and Malgrat de Mar).


----------



## Highway89

verreme said:


> ^^ Well the quirkiest road number for a Spanish motorway may be ARA-A1.
> 
> You might also like the fact that Ma-20 is not the same road as MA-20 . We also have an E-20 that's not in Denmark or Sweden.


And you can find a RM road outside Región de Murcia: Ronda Maó (bypass of Maó, Menorca), see: http://www.cime.es/Documents/Edictes/Docum\1200.pdf





arctic_carlos said:


> Allegedly all main roads (including motorways) would be renumbered as "C-xx" roads in case of Catalonia becoming independent (or if all roads are transferred to the Catalan government). For instance, there are roads like C-25 or C-31 which are already prepared and don't begin with a 0 km post, but have instead a higher number (km 83 in C-25 and km 136 in C-31).
> 
> That's because C-25 would absorb A-2 between the border with Aragon and Cervera and C-31 would do the same with N-340 between the border with the Comunitat Valenciana and El Vendrell (and probably also with N-II between Montgat and Malgrat de Mar).


Are there any plans to renumber all provincial roads (L-, T-, GI-, B- and LV-, BP-, etc) according to the _vegueríes_?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is also RC-1 and RC-2 on Menorca. Ronda Ciutadella (Ciutadella Bypass).

There is also a whole system of color coding behind the numbering system.


----------



## verreme

sotonsi said:


> Presumably Catalonia would have a good sort out of road numbering if it becomes independent? There won't be the political justification for numbering as much as possible as 'C-xxx' anymore.





arctic_carlos said:


> Allegedly all main roads (including motorways) would be renumbered as "C-xx" roads in case of Catalonia becoming independent (or if all roads are transferred to the Catalan government). For instance, there are roads like C-25 or C-31 which are already prepared and don't begin with a 0 km post, but have instead a higher number (km 83 in C-25 and km 136 in C-31).
> 
> That's because C-25 would absorb A-2 between the border with Aragon and Cervera and C-31 would do the same with N-340 between the border with the Comunitat Valenciana and El Vendrell (and probably also with N-II between Montgat and Malgrat de Mar).


The Catalan road numbering system has gaps for all State-owned roads. For example, C-1x roads are North-South roads from West to East. There's no C-11, because that's N-230 .

N-II between Montgat and Malgrat is already transferred to Generalitat de Catalunya, but they have not renumbered it.


----------



## sotonsi

arctic_carlos said:


> Allegedly all main roads (including motorways) would be renumbered as "C-xx" roads in case of Catalonia becoming independent (or if all roads are transferred to the Catalan government). For instance, there are roads like C-25 or C-31 which are already prepared and don't begin with a 0 km post, but have instead a higher number (km 83 in C-25 and km 136 in C-31).
> 
> That's because C-25 would absorb A-2 between the border with Aragon and Cervera and C-31 would do the same with N-340 between the border with the Comunitat Valenciana and El Vendrell (and probably also with N-II between Montgat and Malgrat de Mar).


Good grief!

I'd hope they (while they keep the numbering grid) they have the sense to change the prefixes to match the colours of the cartouches - eg A for blue Autovias, B for red major roads, C for orange middling roads (does Catalonia have these?), D for green lesser roads.


----------



## alserrod

In Asturias I've drove on SB3, thus three roads at least.

It seemed a one way road.


----------



## CNGL

^^ You're right. Google Maps incorrectly shows the Soto del Barco-La Arena road as a North-South leg of AS-318 (which is only La Arena-Ranon according to the log), but it is SB-3. Now I see, both SB-1 and SB-3 are maintained by the region, so I proceed to delete the anotation I put in the Asturian prefix compilation.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Construction of the 4.9 km bypass of Roquetas de Mar (A-1051 in Andalucía) has restarted. It's planned to be completed in October 2017.

http://roquetas.ideal.es/roquetas/n...ta-reinicia-segundo-tramo-20160812110431.html


----------



## adevahi

Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ What does being close to a national park have to do with having unpaved roads?


The National Park has the maximum protection: no buildings, no pavements, also no new paths, few visits... the surroundings of it are also protected but not as much (we called it Coto, so "Coto de Doñana", I don't know the traslation to the english for it), so there are new houses in this village but all of them has to be built according with some protection plans, and the streets can not be paved.
Obviously, the road for arriving to this village is paved (and there is a highway really close, by the way) but not inside the vilage, which is inside the Coto.


----------



## alserrod

Anyway we have paved roads on national parks. ...incluiding one national road


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *A14:* Alguaire – Lleida (A2) ~8km (? to October 2016) – ? – map


Start date: October 2013

http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/10/14/catalunya/1381774073_532678.html



MichiH said:


> *A23:* Caldearenas – Alto de Monrepos ~5km (< 2009 to 2016) – ? – map


According to recent statements by a high government official, it will open in 2018:



> Garcés se desplazó junto a los alcaldes hasta el gran túnel que enlazará el alto de Monrepós con el municipio de Caldearenas, un paso de 2,8 kilómetros de longitud actualmente en proceso de construcción.
> 
> El responsable ministerial aseguró que una vez acabada la obra civil, que se prevé concluir este año, se acometerá la ejecución de los distintos sistemas de seguridad que contará el túnel de Caldearenas, que se convertirá en el segundo más largo de Aragón.
> 
> El objetivo de Fomento es conseguir en un *plazo de dos años* la entrada en servicio de dicho paso, que contará con una galería de evacuación paralela de 2 kilómetros de longitud y que permitirá evitar el tramo de descenso desde alto de Monrepós en dirección a Sabiñánigo.
> 
> http://www.elperiodicodearagon.com/...bras-licitados-todos-tramos-a-21_1120759.html


By the way, I've just found this interesting map on the Ministry's website, it shows all road projects being currently built by the Spanish government (it doesn't include regional projects):

http://www.fomento.gob.es/AZ.MFOM.ObrasCarreteras.Web/obranueva/

Although it doesn't mention completion dates, at least the list below the map shows official lengths and budget of each section.


----------



## arctic_carlos

sotonsi said:


> C for orange middling roads (does Catalonia have these?)


Yes and no. :lol:

The Catalan government designates all its primary network (C-xx roads) with blue (autopistas or autovías) or red (conventional roads) cartouches. However, these same roads are usually shown in orange cartouches when they are signposted in other roads managed by the Spanish government. :nuts:


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## CNGL

And both are correct! Fomento signs them in orange for consistency with other regions. The four Eastern Canary Islands also use red, while the Western three use orange. I consider national and first order regional roads (those in red and orange) to be at the same level.

In other news, I may get 'trolled' soon. I could pay the AP-15 toll between Tafalla and Pamplona (or more accurately between Pueyo and Noain) and clinch that section, as I'm going to Noain (just South of Pamplona, where the roads to Huesca and Zaragoza split) soon. Other roads I'll be driving include A-21 Sigües-A-1601 (And thus once again clinching all toll-free motorways in Zaragoza province, but not in all of Aragon as I have a section of A-2 around Fraga missing), and the A-127 straight between Ejea and Sadaba, the only one of the big three (along A-220 La Almunia-Cariñena and A-222 North of Belchite) I have yet to drive.


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## adevahi

alserrod said:


> Anyway we have paved roads on national parks. ...incluiding one national road


But there are diferent protection plans in each national park


----------



## alserrod

Not so much. Road exists since a Long time ago and tráfico remains


----------



## Highway89

Youtube user Buer Mir has uploaded a video of the N-636 between Arrasate/Mondragón and Gerediaga in the Basque Country. From the minute 12:00 onwards you can see the new _autovía _which opened on the 8th of August.


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## ChrisZwolle

Very scenic near Elorrio. I drove AP-8 last year but I didn't see much of the surroundings due to the low-hanging clouds and rain. 

There is also exit numbering

* Exit ? (km 42) Elorrio
* Exit 43 Elorrio
* Exit 46 Abadiño
* Exit 49 AP-8


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## VITORIA MAN

chris , how can you be an expert on roads all over europe ?


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## ChrisZwolle

I got the exit numbering from the video posted above


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## VITORIA MAN

you're on all the road threads


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## verreme

^^ Everyone has something they know a lot about. For me it's cars, for Chris it's roads, for a friend of mine it's architecture and for another friend of mine it's medicine...


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## Nikolaj

verreme said:


> ^^ Everyone has something they know a lot about. For me it's cars, for Chris it's roads, for a friend of mine it's architecture and for another friend of mine it's medicine...


And as this is a road forum, we can all benefit from Chris' amazing and sound knowledge. Thanks for that.


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## g.spinoza

verreme said:


> ^^ *Everyone *has something they know a lot about. For me it's cars, for Chris it's roads, for a friend of mine it's architecture and for another friend of mine it's medicine...


I wouldn't be so sure


----------



## Ryme Intrinseca

Following on from my EU interchanges thread, here's my breakdown of four-way full access freeflow interchanges in Spain:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*AP-7 toll stations*

It turns out that the Barcelona - L'Hospitalet de l'Infant section of AP-7 in Catalonia used to have an open toll system until 2011.

There were mainline toll plazas at El Vendrell, Tarragona and L'Hospitalet de l'Infant. There was also a toll plaza at the eastern end of AP-2. They were all demolished, leaving only the Martorell toll plaza as the terminus of the tolled AP-7.

They also integrated the tolling system of AP-2 and AP-7 at that time.

In addition, they built a number of new interchanges on the northern part:
* Gelida
* Sant Sadurní d'Anoia
* Vilafranca de Penedès-Nord (used to be a partial interchange)
* Vilafranca de Penedès-Centre (used to be a partial interchange)
* Vilafranca de Penedès-Sud (reconstructed interchange)


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> In addition, they built a number of new interchanges on the northern part:
> * Gelida
> * Sant Sadurní d'Anoia
> ** Vilafranca de Penedès-Nord (used to be a partial interchange)
> * Vilafranca de Penedès-Centre (used to be a partial interchange)*
> * Vilafranca de Penedès-Sud (reconstructed interchange)


The ones in bold are still partial interchanges. You can only use them driving to and from Barcelona:

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.3516532,1.7186569,641m/data=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.3329089,1.7092056,641m/data=!3m1!1e3

They had to be reconstructed to add toll booths and, in some cases, to close direct ramps that would've avoided the new toll booths. That was the case for the direct ramps between AP-7 and C-15, that no longer can be used.

Besides, the interchange next to the Martorell toll plaza was also reconstructed, as separate toll booths had to be added for all the different movements. Before 2011 vehicles paid the same fare in the main toll plaza and in the one that existed on the access to the motorway.

As a result of the new closed toll system, the old toll plaza on the access to the motorway had to be demolished, as now different fares apply for southbound traffic entering AP-7 (vehicles receive a ticket) and northbound traffic entering that motorway (where vehicles pay the fare for Martorell - El Papiol section).

The result is having now four different toll plazas next to each other:

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.4647345,1.9121308,640m/data=!3m1!1e3


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## CNGL

In addition there was another toll plaza further North near Sant Cugat (one of the 'weird' saints around Barcelona, it translates to Saint Cucuphas), however at the same time the motorway was built they built a side road (now known as B-30) that bypassed the toll plaza. As a result the side road was congested by shunpikers (as Americans call toll avoiders) while the mainline was empty. So around the year 2000 the Montmeló-el Papiol section was made toll free and the Sant Cugat toll plaza was demolished.


----------



## Suburbanist

I think Spain is very unique on the extent it went to build parallel/adjacent highways or expressways just to counteract obligations to pay tolls.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*ARA-A1*

Some photos of ARA-A1, from AP-2 to N-232 (i.e. southbound). ARA-A1 opened to traffic in 2008 at a cost of € 58 million. It is a concession road operated with shadow tolls. 2014 traffic volumes were 3,000 vehicles per day, only 40% of the forecasted volume. 

It was significantly damaged by a flood in March 2015. It reopened with two lanes in May, but the full reopening with 2x2 lanes wasn't until July 2016.

1. Coming from the AP-2 interchange. The interchange is incomplete, several turning movements are missing.

ARA-A1-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. ARA-A1 runs through the Ebro River Valley. The surrounding area consists of dry steppe.

ARA-A1-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. The Ebro River Bridge (400 m).

ARA-A1-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. Kilometer post. Basically any numbered road in Spain has kilometer posts.

ARA-A1-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. ARA-A1 has autopista status, and is thus not an autovía, presumably because it is a (shadow) toll road.

ARA-A1-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. The N-232 interchange, which is an elevated roundabout over N-232.

ARA-A1-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> 4. Kilometer post. Basically any numbered road in Spain has kilometer posts.


Are you sure? Almost all provincial roads in Aragon don't have kmposts. Exceptions exist, such as CV-302 (or ZV-302 as I call it) in extreme Western Aragon.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, I saw kilometer posts on all roads I drove, including very minor roads (like LV-roads in Lleida or mountain roads in the Pyrenees).


----------



## CNGL

Ryme Intrinseca said:


> Following on from my EU interchanges thread, here's my breakdown of four-way full access freeflow interchanges in Spain:


Fun fact: all four-way full interchanges in Aragon are along Z-40 around Zaragoza (and four out of five along A-2, which runs concurrent on the North side). Starting from where km 0 of Z-40 would be and going clockwise, I've named those after nearby neighborhoods: Rosales del Canal (rather than Plaza or Arcosur as these would be other exits), Torres de San Lamberto, Parque Goya, Santa Isabel and Valdespartera. Of those, the _autobahnkreuz_ Santa Isabel is the cloverleaf, while the Parque Goya one is the two loop interchange, the other three are off-side as in all three there are at least one movement off the left. In the Rosales del Canal interchange it's A-2 as it merges with Z-40, while in the other two there is a signed left exit.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Well, I saw kilometer posts on all roads I drove, including very minor roads (like LV-roads in Lleida or mountain roads in the Pyrenees).


When new Aragonese number road was set up, non refurbished roads had milestones every 5 km instead of every km


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some photos of ARA-A1, from AP-2 to N-232 (i.e. southbound). ARA-A1 opened to traffic in 2008 at a cost of € 58 million. It is a concession road operated with shadow tolls. 2014 traffic volumes were 3,000 vehicles per day, only 40% of the forecasted volume.
> 
> It was significantly damaged by a flood in March 2015. It reopened with two lanes in May, but the full reopening with 2x2 lanes wasn't until July 2016.
> 
> 1. Coming from the AP-2 interchange. The interchange is incomplete, several turning movements are missing.


Should you come from Zaragoza via AP-2, those 5 km are free (a counter will send invoice to Aragonese government). AP-2 accepted an interchange only to cross river, they didn't want to set a new toll booth or so




> 2. ARA-A1 runs through the Ebro River Valley. The surrounding area consists of dry steppe.


Re-opened some months ago in that way. Due to a river overflow in March 2015, motorway was down in that point. Works were very slow.




> 3. The Ebro River Bridge (400 m).


From Zaragoza to Pina de Ebro there are these brigde and a walking bridge in La Cartuja only




> 5. ARA-A1 has autopista status, and is thus not an autovía, presumably because it is a (shadow) toll road.



Yes, indeed. Opened in 2008 I think it was 25 years of shadows toll (or maybe 30????)





> 6. The N-232 interchange, which is an elevated roundabout over N-232.


Next time drive ahead. In the km. 3 of A-222 you will cross under the railway HSL and later, a 16 straight way, not very common in this area. It is the second largest straight road in Aragon (first one is 16,5 km and third one 15,8 km).
All in the middle of a vaste desert, so near to Ebro river!!!


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## ChrisZwolle

I drove on A-1602 from Berdún to Ansó. It still has concrete kilometer posts, If I recall correctly, with the number HU-202.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove on A-1602 from Berdún to Ansó. It still has concrete kilometer posts, If I recall correctly, with the number HU-202.


It is one out of the most awesome roads in that area indeed.... and by the way, a little regional press release said they are going to refurbish it. Do not expect too much, it hasn't much traffic but better than now at least


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The entire 20 kilometer route from Berdún to A-176 near Ansó was covered in chip seal gravel when I drove it last week.

It's not a fast road, it's narrow (sometimes just a single lane) and very curvy. The driving speed is mostly 40-60 km/h. 

A-176 from Hecho to Ansó also appears to have been improved relatively recently. It's much wider than west of Ansó, where it is very narrow and poorly maintained. However, the Hecho - Ansó section is very curvy so you can't drive very fast there either. But I bet it's much safer in the winter now that the road is wider.

You can see how it becomes much narrower once you approach Hecho:


----------



## alserrod

A-176 is a second degree road (only three digits and in orange). Berdun road is third level and in green.

Till Echo/Hecho in the 90ish it was refurbished. Later, Echo-Ansó was fully refurbished in twice. First only 8 km (and later the hell) and finally, full road.

After Ansó, hell in mountains.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Iruña is mostly signed from Basque-speaking areas (i.e. north of Pamplona).
> 
> Isn't Iruña with an 'ñ' strange for Basque? I don't recall seeing ñ in any other Basque placenames. I used to think that Pamplona was the Basque name and Iruña the Spanish name





Suburbanist said:


> Is Pamplona commonly signed "Iruña" or not really?
> 
> 
> 6. A bilingual sign. However, the Basque name for Bilbao (Bilbo) is omitted, which is often the case in the area.
> 
> N-636-9 by European Roads, on Flickr



AFAIK.... 
In Basque, Bilbao is accepted as a Basque version too (some forumer from the area could confirm it!). 
All official names are in Basque except San Sebastian-Donostia, Vitoria-Gasteiz and Mondragon-Arrasate (and I do not know if any one more). As they have said... Irún has an accent in Spanish, not in Basque and official name is only "Irun".


In Navarra, Pamplona is named as Iruña (I have read Iruñea sometimes) only in the Basque speaking area in Navarra (there is a tiny area where they barely speak it and later, north, speaking area, south, non speaking area)


----------



## Ryme Intrinseca

CNGL said:


> Fun fact: all four-way full interchanges in Aragon are along Z-40 around Zaragoza (and four out of five along A-2, which runs concurrent on the North side). Starting from where km 0 of Z-40 would be and going clockwise, I've named those after nearby neighborhoods: Rosales del Canal (rather than Plaza or Arcosur as these would be other exits), Torres de San Lamberto, Parque Goya, Santa Isabel and Valdespartera. Of those, the _autobahnkreuz_ Santa Isabel is the cloverleaf, while the Parque Goya one is the two loop interchange, the other three are off-side as in all three there are at least one movement off the left. In the Rosales del Canal interchange it's A-2 as it merges with Z-40, while in the other two there is a signed left exit.


Yes, the Z-40 is quite impressive, with the same number of full four-way freeflow interchanges as the M25 London orbital motorway!


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## alserrod

Ryme Intrinseca said:


> Yes, the Z-40 is quite impressive, with the same number of full four-way freeflow interchanges as the M25 London orbital motorway!


In the 80ish they made the northbound from Madrid exit to Barcelona exit and named as A-2.

In 2003 they opened from Madrid exit to Alcañiz exit and named as Z-40. In 2008 they made full orbital and named as Z-40 southbound.

Later they updated A-2 to Z-40 and sometimes they have both names.


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## arctic_carlos

Regarding the official names of the Basque capitals, the situation as of today is as follows:

- *Bilbao* is the only official name of the city in both Spanish and Basque languages. The name Bilbo is often used in Basque language (for example, the city's bus company is called Bilbobus), but it doesn't enjoy an official status.

- *Vitoria-Gasteiz* is the only official name of the city in both Spanish and Basque languages (a single word with the two names linked with a hyphen).

- *Donostia* and *San Sebastián* are the two official names of the city, the first one in Basque language and the second one in Spanish.

On the other hand, those are the official names of the Basque provinces since 2011 (until then the Spanish names Vizcaya and Guipúzcoa were also official):

- *Bizkaia*

- *Araba/Álava*

- *Gipuzkoa*

Besides, *Pamplona* is the official name of the city in Spanish, while *Iruña* is its official name in Basque language.

And that's the end of your daily dose of Spanish particularities. :lol:


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> 5. ARA-A1 has autopista status, and is thus not an autovía, presumably because it is a (shadow) toll road.





alserrod said:


> Yes, indeed. Opened in 2008 I think it was 25 years of shadows toll (or maybe 30????)


Not all shadow-toll roads in Spain are _autopistas_. There are many shadow-toll _autovías_ in Catalonia, Murcia or Galicia.

I don't know why _autovías_ still exist. They should be re-signed as _autopistas_. This distinction made sense in the 1980s and 90s when we needed a road category suited for the roads we built back then -largely duplicating existing roads by adding another carriageway, but retaining driveway accesses, bus stops, etc. As of 2015 99% of the _autovía_ network complies with the definition of _autopista_: a grade-separated, dual-carriageway road with _total_ access restriction.

Tolling is not mentioned as a difference between both road categories. We've always had toll-free _autopistas_; perhaps the longest one is A-49.


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## VITORIA MAN

arctic_carlos said:


> The new *A-14* has already been signposted in its interchange with A-2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.segre.com/detalls-seccio...a-senyalitza-la-sortida-a-la-14-cap-a-tolosa/
> 
> vielha airport ???


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Lleida Airport, located near a town called Alguaire, 5 km away from that sign on A-14.


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## VITORIA MAN

i know , but the sign is confusing


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## KRX_69

*Alcúdia - Cap Formentor (15.09.2016)

Ma-2220*

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## KRX_69

*Ma-2210*

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:cheers:


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## ChrisZwolle

*N-123 Olvena Canyon*

A lesser-known driving gem in Aragón, N-123 though the Olvena Canyon. I didn't know about this canyon until the evening when I mapped my trip from Balaguer to Hecho for the next day. It's a real treat.


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## CNGL

N-123 through the Olvena canyon wasn't even a _comarcal_ road back in the day, it was a provincial one with the number HU-904. Back then C-139 ran along present day A-2211 through La Puebla de Castro, and N-123 was assigned to the Zaragoza-Huesca road (which later became a realigned N-330). After N-123 was reassigned to the Barbastro-Benabarre route, the shortcut South of Barasona reservoir (also in the video) was built. Also, since national road numbering is still based off Plan Peña, current N-123 has a bad number, it should have a 3 as middle digit. N-131 would have been a better number for this road.


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## ChrisZwolle

When was this part of N-123 built? It looks like a fairly high-standard road for such terrain. Quite different than say, N-260.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> When was this part of N-123 built? It looks like a fairly high-standard road for such terrain. Quite different than say, N-260.


In 1996 (to be honest, in the middle of Atlanta Olympics), this bridge was opened to traffic

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.0654038,0.2160712,283m/data=!3m1!1e3

In those dates, the full Olvena gorge was under refurbishment.... I remember being on a bus and a mate said that he remembered even worse!!! and pointed me quite old streches

I would state that in 96-97 was fully refurbished till damn.

This curve was a nightmare
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.1024257,0.289097,2259m/data=!3m1!1e3

Proposal was to build two bridges and a tunnel through the other side of the river but got down due to environment issues. Right side of the river is not affected by road and wanted to kept on. Therefore, limited to 60 km/h there and for a time...

Finally, former N123 was via Graus (one km before Graus) and crossed this bridge
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.1795...03&h=100&yaw=25.075123&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656

From Graus to Torres del Obispo it is enough to see that road hasn't same standards... it wasn't refurbished.
If you see a road from the damn to Pueyo de Marguillen... it is due to it was former N-123 to Aguinaliu. Nowadays, half of that road has no traffic indeed.

From damn to Torres del obispo, road was built in those years (96-97).


As you would see... coming from Toulouse, you can enter in Spain via Viella, cross the tunnel and, in Benabarre, choose Lerida for Valencia or Catalonia or choose Barbastro (A-22 and later A-23) to Zaragoza and almost any destination in Spain, Portugal or Morocco.

In addition... road is officially "Zaragoza to France via Viella" but km. 0 is in Barbastro and has only "own kilometres" from Barbastro to Benabarre.... but I could surf into quite former signals in Zaragoza pointing Huesca as N-123.

km 0 (https://www.google.es/maps/@42.0220861,0.13716,283m/data=!3m1!1e3) was a huge black spot before a roundabout in different steps was built. There was indication, limited to 80, radars in both directions.... and black spot.

Do not get surprised if I say that A-22 works there started before roundabout was finished (and now it has barely traffic)


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> A lesser-known driving gem in Aragón, N-123 though the Olvena Canyon. I didn't know about this canyon until the evening when I mapped my trip from Balaguer to Hecho for the next day. It's a real treat.


Your video is blocked in Germany because of the music...


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## KRX_69

*Cap Formentor - s´Arenal (15.09.2016)

Ma-2200*

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## KRX_69

*Ma-13*

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## Farnan

@CNGL, HU-904 was actually C-139 in practice. In other words, traffic used HU-904 as id it were C-139. There's a lot of examples. To go to Jaca, almost anyone used C-136 or N-240, never old N-330. (in 1982, N-330 started to run for Monrepos pass, this is why Shulamithe found "mojones" colored with N-330.

And believe or not, N-240 has more traffic around here than A-22. Cause: A lot of traffic go to Barbastro or to use N-123, who isn't connected to A-22. Remember that Barbastro is the town for many villages. Among other things, Barbastro has one of the only six places in Aragon region that have maternity service. Unlike alserrod said, this stretch has traffic.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Z-40 Zaragoza*

I made a video of the entire Zaragoza Ring Road (Z-40).


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## CNGL

A quick guide on interchanges featured in last Chris' video (All five four-way controlled in Aragon ). Note all names are given by me, they are not official:
1:00 & 7:05: Santa Isabel (First time East to West, second time South to North)
1:40: Parque Goya
2:20: Torres de San Lamberto
3:30: Rosales del Canal (which actually is three km off exit 33)
4:25: Valdespartera


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## ChrisZwolle

A-15 and AP-15 have some distance signs for cities in France.

This is on AP-15 between Pamplona and Irurtzun.

AP-15 Paris sign by European Roads, on Flickr


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## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *A14:* Alguaire – Lleida (A2) ~8km (October 2013 to October 2016) – ? – map


It has been postponed to early 2017:

http://www.segre.com/noticies/comar...imers_any_amb_queixes_alcaldes_3108_1091.html


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## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-15 and AP-15 have some distance signs for cities in France.
> 
> This is on AP-15 between Pamplona and Irurtzun.
> 
> AP-15 Paris sign by European Roads, on Flickr


I wonder how many foreign drivers do understand that Bayona and Burdeos are actually Bayonne and Bordeaux. I think foreign cities should always be signposted in their native name (or English name, if there's one widely used). And of course an oval would help too.
For example, Slovenia and Croatia used to signpost Trst only, but in new signs now there's always Trst/Trieste.


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## Fane40

I thought that Toulouse was Tolosa in spanish. As the city along N1 between SS and Vitoria.
And Bayonne (in french) is Baiona in basque or spanish. With a "i", not "y".
I never paid attention to this sign before.
Maybe it's a new one. 
But I have to say that spanish are better than french to mention cities of other countries.
Here I believe there is the direction to San Sebastian along the A63 from Bordeaux to the border and Zaragoza near Pau to the border through the Pyrenees mountains.
Certainly disappointing for spanish before the gps !


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## alserrod

italystf said:


> I wonder how many foreign drivers do understand that Bayona and Burdeos are actually Bayonne and Bordeaux. I think foreign cities should always be signposted in their native name (or English name, if there's one widely used). And of course an oval would help too.
> For example, Slovenia and Croatia used to signpost Trst only, but in new signs now there's always Trst/Trieste.


Conversely it is always signed "Saragosse" on N134/E07 road. It is quite different to Zaragoza but every one knows it


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## alserrod

Fane40 said:


> I thought that Toulouse was Tolosa in spanish. As the city along N1 between SS and Vitoria.
> And Bayonne (in french) is Baiona in basque or spanish. With a "i", not "y".
> I never paid attention to this sign before.
> Maybe it's a new one.
> But I have to say that spanish are better than french to mention cities of other countries.
> Here I believe there is the direction to San Sebastian along the A63 from Bordeaux to the border and Zaragoza near Pau to the border through the Pyrenees mountains.
> Certainly disappointing for spanish before the gps !


In Spanish it is Bayona (even that town, even a small galician village)

Toulouse is Tolosa but often writen in French for the reason hoy said


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## Fane40

alserrod said:


> Conversely it is always signed "Saragosse" on N134/E07 road. It is quite different to Zaragoza but every one knows it


Yes, I believe you are right.
More "Huesca" which is the same in our two languages if I remember right.


----------



## Fane40

alserrod said:


> In Spanish it is Bayona (even that town, even a small galician village)
> 
> Toulouse is Tolosa but often writen in French for the reason hoy said


Ok for Toulouse.
I have already seen "Baiona" in Galicia on signs roads, south of Vigo.
Certainly a very good place to live, as the french one.


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## arctic_carlos

Fane40 said:


> But I have to say that spanish are better than french to mention cities of other countries.


I'm sorry but I disagree. 

French cities have only been added to our signs very recenty, and in many cases (e.g. along AP-7) a _França/Francia_ sign still appears, instead of the name of a French city like _Perpignan_ or _Montpellier_. 

On the contrary, in France the names of Spanish cities such as _Barcelone_ or _Saint-Sebastien_ have been present in the signs for ages!

This distance sign of the picture near Pamplona with plenty of French cities is just a rare exception; I hope it will be extended soon to other motorways, but it's not common at all. And given that AP-15 is managed by the government of Navarre, I doubt it will be extended to State-owned motorways.



italystf said:


> I wonder how many foreign drivers do understand that Bayona and Burdeos are actually Bayonne and Bordeaux. I think foreign cities should always be signposted in their native name (or English name, if there's one widely used).


The _Gênes_ signs on French A8 have always fascinated me. :lol:


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## Highway89

arctic_carlos said:


> This distance sign of the picture near Pamplona with plenty of French cities is just a rare exception; I hope it will be extended soon to other motorways, but it's not common at all. And given that AP-15 is managed by the government of Navarre, I doubt it will be extended to State-owned motorways.


Yep. IIRC, current Fomento regulations say that only the local name must be used (Bayonne, Toulouse, Bourdeaux, Bragança...). 

However, other road authorities have their own criteria. I'm wouldn't be surprised if I saw a sign in Catalonia with "Perpinyà" written on it.


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## ChrisZwolle

I'm pretty sure there are signs for 'Perpinyà' along AP-7.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm pretty sure there are signs for 'Perpinyà' along AP-7.



Yes, there are. I drove there very recently.


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## KRX_69

*Ayamonte - Sevilla (24.09.2016)

A49*

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## KRX_69

16.









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:cheers:


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Thanks. It's great to see that the new signage of SE-40 has already been installed. The interchange looks almost ready.


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## Metred

Highway89 said:


> Yep. IIRC, current Fomento regulations say that only the local name must be used (Bayonne, Toulouse, Bourdeaux, Bragança...).
> 
> However, other road authorities have their own criteria. I'm wouldn't be surprised if I saw a sign in Catalonia with "Perpinyà" written on it.


Yes, this is common in the Basque Country as well. In road signs the names of French Basque towns and cities will always appear written using Basque ortography (Baiona instead of Bayona, for example), even if the French name is the "official" one (Bayonne):


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## alserrod

Obviously, last one is just besides the border (and first one too, N-121 ends just in the border)


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## Metred

^^

Yes, the point was to say that the place names are written in Basque.


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## arctic_carlos

*A-12*

Construction of a 4.2* km 2x2 section of *A-12* between Burgos (A-1/AP-1) and Ibeas de Juarros has been awarded (45M€). Expected duration: 30 months. Let's hope construction starts soon.

http://www.rtvcyl.es/Noticia/FD3164...judica/millones/obras/a-/burgos/ibeas/juarros

* The new section will be in fact a little longer, as it includes more than 3 km of flyovers in the interchange with A-1 and AP-1. The length of 4.2 km just refers to the main carriageways of the motorway.


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## verreme

^^ A-12 Logroño-Burgos is the main missing link in the Spanish motorway network. The route between Catalonia/Aragón and Galicia will be much shorter thanks to it. Today, most people use AP-68 and AP-1, which is quite a detour.

I don't think it will be completed soon (we may have to wait another 15 years) but at least it's good to see that things are moving again.


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## ChrisZwolle

Do you think AP-69 makes a chance to be constructed? Even as an untolled autovía? And what about A-73 Burgos - Aguilar de Campoo?

There are quite some plans for northern Castilla y León that may not be realized anytime soon. Such as A-15 Soria - Tudela, A-60 Valladolid - León, A-65 Benavente - Palence, AP-69 Miranda de Ebro - Reinosa, A-73 Burgos - Aguilar de Campoo, etc.

A-11 seems to be progressing though.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Do you think AP-69 makes a chance to be constructed? Even as an untolled autovía? And what about A-73 Burgos - Aguilar de Campoo?


IMO, AP69 will take looooooooooong time

I drove on A73 two months ago. Motorway fine but later, nightmare. They are 60ish road 1x1 km and it was an August friday with heavy traffic. 
A lot of people take it because Madrid-Santander is free via Burgos (and not via Valladolid) and only 60 km road.

At Aguilar, I was the only driver I took another way, rest of cars, direction Santander.


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## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> Do you think AP-69 makes a chance to be constructed? Even as an untolled autovía?


I don't think *AP-69* (Miranda de Ebro - Reinosa) will ever make sense, even if it were to be built as an untolled autovía (A-69). The population density of the area is very low, and even the majority of residents of the area rejected it due to its big environmental impact. Besides, the alternative route via Bilbao (AP-68 + A-8) is not such a long detour to go from the Ebro valley to Santander.



ChrisZwolle said:


> And what about A-73 Burgos - Aguilar de Campoo?


*A-73* will be completed sooner or later. Besides the short section in service near Burgos, there's another one near Aguilar de Campoo in early construction stage. This is the traditional route between Madrid and Santander, and the detour of A-67 via Palencia (together with the tolls of AP-6) hasn't changed that.



ChrisZwolle said:


> There are quite some plans for northern Castilla y León that may not be realized anytime soon. Such as A-15 Soria - Tudela, A-60 Valladolid - León, A-65 Benavente - Palence


*A-15 Soria - Tudela*: Very low on the priority list. Maybe the southern bypass of Soria (La Mallona - Los Rábanos - Fuensaúco) will be built in order to connect A-15 with A-11 and then N-122 towards Tudela, as the project is ready and only needs to be tendered.

*A-60 Valladolid - León*: There are two short sections near Valladolid and León in service, and a further section near León under construction (which was delayed due to financial problems but also due to the finding of archaeological rests of a Roman city). But once that's ready, we can forget about the construction of more sections of this autovía. The sections that have been built were actually very necessary, as they were crowded city accesses, but the missing 90 km are not necessary at all given current traffic levels.

*A-65 Benavente - Palencia*: I think this one is not really necessary, given the existence of alternative motorways. The sole purpose of A-65 would be to connect Vigo and Ourense to France via Burgos and the Basque Country, avoiding the detour via León or Tordesillas. A cheaper alternative could be the construction of a shorter link between A-66 and A-231 south of León (between Valdevimbre and Palanquinos, for example), which would render that route more attractive for truck drivers.



ChrisZwolle said:


> A-11 seems to be progressing though.


Fortunately. However it's high time they started the section between Tudela de Duero and Aranda de Duero. And I'm afraid A-11 won't generate much additional traffic until A-15 is built between Soria and Tudela.


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## ChrisZwolle

The traffic volumes just aren't there for A-60 and A-65. 

N-601 carries only 2,500 - 4,500 vehicles per day in the rural areas between Valladolid and León. N-610 carries only 2,000 - 4,000 vehicles per day between Benavente and Palencia, even dipping below 2,000 vpd east of Benavente.


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## ChrisZwolle

I think it's almost a miracle A-15 got built from Medinaceli to Soria. According to Fomento, the road carries only 4,500 vehicles per day. I understand the need to connect a remote provincial capital to the motorway network, but dang, that's a low traffic volume. 

In the Netherlands such a traffic volume would be considered appropriate for a 60 km/h road without a center lane marking...


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## BasqueRoadEyes

*Driving through AP-8 between Bilbao and Azpeitia*

Driving through AP-8, N-634 and GI-2634 between Bilbao and Azpeitia. The basque traditional roads infrastructure and the AP-8 built around 1970.


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## CNGL

Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ Is that the autovia/autopista with the lowest AADT in Spain?


My best guess is that either RM-16 or RM-17 is the least used motorway in Spain. Two useless motorways serving an even useless airport.


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## Farnan

For the record, in the plan of 1993, the one that includes many motorways...
Priority motorways. (I'm going to include some roads of the same timeline made by important authonomic autorities).
A-1 Vitoria-Alsasua-Beasain*
A-2 Cervera-igualada
A-3 Honrubia-Teruel
A-4 Despeñaperros pass, Sevilla-Dos hermanas, Puerto SM-San Fernando
A-5 Almaraz-Jaraicejo, Trujillo-Merida
A-6 Benavente-Ponferrada-Lugo-A Coruña
A-7 Guadiaro-Estepona, Malaga-nerja-Motril (with new Malaga-Rincon Victoria), Adra-El Ejido-Almeria-N-344. 
AP-7 Malaga-Estepona
A-8 (Prt of them, now A-64) Remaining sections between Solares and PB Vizcaya, torrelavega-llanes-Vilalviciosa-Pola de Siero.
AP-9 (for historic contracts) Cecebre-Fene, Vigo by-pass and Vigo-bypass-Tui.
A-9 Fene-Ferrol
A-10 Alsasua-irurtzun*
A-15 Irurtzun-Andoain.*
A-23 Sagunto_Segorbe, Zaragoza-Huesca-Nueno
A-30 Cieza-Murcia (with new by-pass of Molina)
A-32 Bailen-Lianres, by-pass of ALbacete
A-35 Almansa-Alcudia
A-37 (Free). Novelda-Elche-Torrevieja-Cartagena (Can't be done through Santa Pola because the environment).
A-42 Toledo-Bypass
A-44 Bailen-Jaen-Albolote, Alhendin-Durcal.
A-49 Huelva-Ayamonte.
A-52 benavente-Ourense-Vigo
A-62 Valladolid-Sevilla
A-66 Palsencia-Caceres, Merida-Zafra, N-433-Sevilla.
AP-66 Make Negron tunnel 2x2.
A-92N/A-91 Baza-Puerto Lumbreras
C-32N (A-19 RCE) Mataro-Palafolls
C-32S (A-16 GC) Sitges-El Vendrell.

Then the govermenet also planned, for long time
A-2 Barcelona-Girona-Francia
A-7 Barcelona-Tarragona-Castellon-Valencia, Motril-Adra.
A-8 El Astilelro_Torrelavega
AP-15/R-2 Madrid-Soria-Tudela
A-23 Segorbe-Teruel-Zaragoza
A-30 Albacete-Cieza
A-33 Between A-31 and A-35 (Then N-330 and N-430). This is why in the A-35 Intersection the exit is amde with autovia in mind (A-35 is from 1997)
A-40 Maqueda-Toledo-tarancon_Cuenca
A-43 Ciudad Real-Manzanares-A-3 junction.
A-44 Durcal-Motril
A-45 Cordoba-Antequera.
A-48 Chiclana-Algeciras (A-381 wasn't a plan by then).
A-51 (Free) Villacastin-Avila
A-61 (free) San Rafael-Segovia
A-62 Salamanca-Portugal
A-65 Benavente-Palencia
AP-66 Leon:benavente 
A-66 Benavente-Zamora-Salamanca-Plasencia, Caceres-Merida, Zafra-N-433.
A-67 Palencia-Torrelavega.
AP-71 Leon_Astorga
A-92 Guadix-Almeria

And yes, R-3, R-4 and R-5 were planned here. As a FREE motorway.
For the rest of by-pass, the map is not very clear and I have to check case by case.


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## ChrisZwolle

CNGL said:


> My best guess is that either RM-16 or RM-17 is the least used motorway in Spain. Two useless motorways serving an even useless airport.


I think so too. These autovías only serve an airport that is not operational. 

A-14 north of Lleida carries only 560 vehicles per day. But its usage will increase once it is connected to A-2, it's isolated segment is too much out of the way for traffic now.


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## arctic_carlos

*BU-30*



> *BU30:* Villalbilla de Burgos (A231) – Quintanaduenas ~8km (? to Late 2016) – ? – map


Although works are in a very advanced stage, it's not clear whether the October 2016 deadline will be met. There are still some incomplete structures and the last layer of asphalt is still missing, besides other minor works.

As the Burgos area receives a lot of rain between October and March (usually also snow in winter), some people point out the difficulty of completing this section before spring 2017 unless they're able to finish the works before the end of this month.

So we'll have to follow closely the subject in the next weeks.

In the meantime, some recent pictures:




























http://www.diariodeburgos.es/Notici...C720765444/Se-atasca-acabar-la-circunvalacion


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## arctic_carlos

*A-21*



MichiH said:


> *A21:* Santa Cilia – Jaca-West 9.0km (? to >= 2016) – ? – map


I haven't found any recent news related to this section, but a couple of articles from June and July 2016, which contain interesting pictures:

Bridge on Aragon river just west of Jaca (June 2016):










http://www.diariodelaltoaragon.es/NoticiasDetalle.aspx?Id=1002383

And some pictures of the same area taken in July 2016:














































http://www.espiritudeportivo.es/not...autovia-pamplona-obras-enlace-jaca-oeste.html

So you can guess whether this section will open in 2016 or not... hno:


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## CNGL

MichiH said:


> *A-23:* Lanave – Caldearenas 14.4km (< 2009 to _suspended_) – ? – map


Works on this section have restarted! :banana: They are working on the roundabout that will serve as 'temporary' end near Lanave, as well as on the Guarga river viaduct.


MichiH said:


> *A-23:* Sabinanigo-West – Sabinanigo-East 6.9km (? to ?) – ? – map


I found they chose a new alternative some time ago, which includes a long bridge (over a km long) in order to avoid touching contaminated soils.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think so too. These autovías only serve an airport that is not operational.
> 
> A-14 north of Lleida carries only 560 vehicles per day. But its usage will increase once it is connected to A-2, it's isolated segment is too much out of the way for traffic now.


Nowadays A-14 has no sense because you may take a long detour for a couple of km.

Being linked with A-2 will be a different situation that could happen in next months.


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## ajch

The yearbook of 2015 has been published. It not completed yet but it has all the statical info on road published (chapter 7)
http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG_CASTELLANO/ATENCION_CIUDADANO/INFORMACION_ESTADISTICA/EstadisticaSintesis/Anuario/2015/TablasAnuario2015.htm

The info on road is in Capitulo 7: Carreteras (is a pdf file)

At the end of 2015 Spain has a network of:

3040 kms of tolled motorways (autopistas de peaje)
12296 kms of expressways and free motorways (autovias y autopistas libres)
1686 kms of multilane roads (carreteras multicarril). These road were known before as dual carriageway roads (carreteras de doble calzada). The government has changed the name this year.

For international comparisons the total length of Spain network is 15336 kms (3040+12296)

The relevant part of the pdf file are

Table 7.2 (page 17): historical length of the network from 2000 to 2015
Table 7.3 (page 22): total length of road for autonomous communities and provinces including total national
And starting in page 38 you can get a description of each part of the motorway network


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## ChrisZwolle

What an unusual rest area along AP-9 just north of Santiago. Traffic has to make a U-turn to get back on the motorway.


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## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> What an unusual rest area along AP-9 just north of Santiago. Traffic has to make a U-turn to get back on the motorway.


It looks like a never completed exit, later converted in rest area.


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## alserrod

I do think so. Seems to be prepared for an exit


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## ChrisZwolle

How many autovías were built to autopista standards, but never intended as a toll road?

They seem to share some characteristics;

* built in the 1980s/1990s
* they often have diamond interchanges
* exits are farther apart than on 'twinned' autovías (i.e. first-generation autovías)
* fewer or no partial exits (i.e. ramps on either side of a village)
* new alignment, not an expansion of the old road

So far I've located A-3/A-31 Honrubia - La Roda and A-66 León - Benavente. Perhaps A-52 was also partially built like that, it has a lower exit density than most autovías.


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## alserrod

A3-A-31 at Honrubia was, in those years the best "example" as how roads could improve.

It was clearly to link Madrid and Alicante but thanks to that motorway they could post a former local road and later the motorway in that area.


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## Highway89

A-49 Sevilla-Huelva, I think; probably all the way to the Portuguese border. It even had (and maybe still has) the "chopsticks" -autopista- sign. Obvoiusly that would make it an autopista and wouldn't be included in your question, but...


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> How many autovías were built to autopista standards, but never intended as a toll road?



Nowadays I would state that all of them. It must be a special case but they are trying to search always for a motorway standard.

One out of those standards untolled motorways was the "Asturian Y" (Gijon/Aviles/Oviedo). Obviously also some streches made by a tolled motorway but first km. untolled


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## verreme

^^ A-7 between Alicante and Murcia was also built as a toll-free _autopista_. Same for A-66 and A-8 in Asturias (the so-called "Y"). This one is also one of the very few Spanish motorways with concrete pavement; I don't know if it's still there.

A-8 east of Santander was also built to _autopista_ standards, and signed as such. And I think A-231 León-Burgos was made that way too.


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## Woonsocket54

Finishing the nothern bypass of Burgos (as seen in post # 6485) could result in a quicker journey between Zaragoza and Leon. Currently Google Maps shows a 4 hr 7 min drive (without traffic) between Zaragoza-Plaza del Pilar and Leon-Plaza Mayor. The finished bypass may result in a reduction by a few minutes.


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## CNGL

verreme said:


> A-8 east of Santander was also built to _autopista_ standards, and signed as such. *And I think A-231 León-Burgos was made that way too*.


But surely not the Valdealgorfa-Arnes section. :troll:


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## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> ^^ A-7 between Alicante and Murcia was also built as a toll-free _autopista_. Same for A-66 and A-8 in Asturias (the so-called "Y"). This one is also one of the very few Spanish motorways with concrete pavement; I don't know if it's still there.


A-66 still had concrete pavement as of last year.


A-66-478 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

The Spanish road system has so many interesting pecularities


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## alserrod

I guess we will have someone more before standarize them


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## CNGL

I remember when it was first renumbered, A-23 North of Zaragoza had exit numbers in the 500s, as it retained N-330 numbering. It had a huge gap across Zaragoza, as it arrived from Valencia at kmpost 277 and the first one North was (and still is as that particular, substandard section has reverted to N-330) 503. Once the new alignment from Santa Isabel opened (2008) kmposts and exit numbers were changed to match those to the South, which reflected distance from the actual startpoint of A-23 at Murviedro, errr Sagunto.


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## alserrod

CNGL said:


> I remember when it was first renumbered, A-23 North of Zaragoza had exit numbers in the 500s, as it retained N-330 numbering. It had a huge gap across Zaragoza, as it arrived from Valencia at kmpost 277 and the first one North was (and still is as that particular, substandard section has reverted to N-330) 503. Once the new alignment from Santa Isabel opened (2008) kmposts and exit numbers were changed to match those to the South, which reflected distance from the actual startpoint of A-23 at Murviedro, errr Sagunto.




More or less, km. 501 of N-330 was here
https://www.google.es/maps/@41.6614...4!1sf7jz6XGlu2V7mGO-OAkU3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


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## ChrisZwolle

*C-25 Eix Transversal*

C-25 is an autovía owned by the Catalan government, and operated through a shadow toll concession with Cedinsa. The motorway segment runs from A-2 near Cervera to A-2 near Girona is a shortcut through the Pyrenees. There are two notable cities along the route, Manresa and Vic.

C-25 was initially developed as a super two vía rápida, which opened in stages between 1993 and 1997. It was twinned to an autovía between 2008 and 2013 at a cost of € 838 million, which seems incredibly cheap considering the terrain with viaducts and tunnels. The motorway segment is 152 kilometers long.











1. Welcome to the Cedinsa network.

C-25-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. Lleida is a good two hours of driving.

C-25-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. An interchange with C-63. Most two-digit C-roads are of a higher standard, with quite a number of autopistas or autovías, or at least some degree of grade-separation.

C-25-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

C-25-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. Catalan style signage.

C-25-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. The first tunnel. C-25 runs into the mountains fairly quickly.

C-25-10 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

C-25-13 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. 

C-25-14 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. Many exits lead to very small villages.

C-25-16 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. 

C-25-20 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. Coll de Revell, 822 meters in altitude. C-25 passes under it through a short tunnel. There is a restaurant and fuel station on top.

C-25-23 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. 

C-25-26 by European Roads, on Flickr

13. 

C-25-30 by European Roads, on Flickr

14. C-25 then descends to Vic.

C-25-31 by European Roads, on Flickr

15. 

C-25-32 by European Roads, on Flickr

16. N-141d. I wonder if it is related to N-141 which is a short route near Vielha.

C-25-35 by European Roads, on Flickr

17. The city of Vic (42,000 people).

C-25-36 by European Roads, on Flickr

18. 

C-25-41 by European Roads, on Flickr

19. Northward C-17.

C-25-43 by European Roads, on Flickr

20. C-17 and C-25 run concurrent near Vic with six lanes, with a lot of weaving.

C-25-44 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## g.spinoza

^^ I drove the whole length of it few weeks ago on my way to Madrid... the scenery is absolutely stunning.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> 16. N-141d. I wonder if it is related to N-141 which is a short route near Vielha.


Nope. The original N-141 was intended to do what C-25 does now: a shortcut between Lleida and Girona. Two sections of it (Rajadell to Manresa and Vilanova de Sau to then C-153, now C-63, along Ter river) were never built. Back then, current N-141 was C-141.


----------



## arctic_carlos

The scenery is stunning, even though it doesn't run through the Pyrenees but just through some small mountain ranges (Serralada Prelitoral and Serralada Transversal).

Regarding N-141, it used to be the main road between Cervera, Manresa and Vic before the construction of C-25. It was supposed to reach Girona, but it was left incomplete (I think it had something to do with the construction of Sau and Susqueda reservoirs). In any event, the completed sections were transferred to the Catalan government and renumbered as N-141a (Cervera - Calaf), N-141b (Calaf - Rajadell), N-141c (Manresa - Vic), N-141d (Vic - Sau) and N-141e (Anglès - Girona).

I guess once that road had been downgraded, they reused its numbering for the current 8 km N-141 Bosost - Col du Portillon.

PS: CNGL has been faster. :lol:


----------



## verreme

C-25 west of Vic has also some nice scenery. There's a long descent where you have awesome views on the Lluçanès plateau from above, and a short section where both roadways split because of some archaeological remains that are visible from the motorway. Plus the entire drive is 120 km/h. More and more motorways are being restricted to 100, it's nice that C-25 isn't, especially considering that it was a duplication of a single-carriageway road with a 100 km/h design speed.


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## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I drove the whole length of it few weeks ago on my way to Madrid... the scenery is absolutely stunning.


I would recommend you this way if no hurry
https://www.google.es/maps/dir/Madr...caf7cafaa868!2m2!1d2.8739219!2d42.4181324!3e0

Quite scenic landscape. Road side has barely traffic and it is fine.

If your destination is not Madrid but near or southern I could recommend you another one.


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## alserrod

N-141 is only this little road

There was a "law" to set all roads to border as national roads (even road to approach Gibraltar, or Andorra from La Seu.... when the rest of valley is not national). Obviously not all roads to border are national ones but this one it is... and it was a strategic point.

What I wonder is about where in hell booths were set. In the pass or in the cross?


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I drove the whole length of it few weeks ago on my way to Madrid... the scenery is absolutely stunning.


I agree! Drove there May 2015


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting situation, AG-53 has the status of an autovía, but is signed as AP-53.

I think this sign is wrong, this should be AG-53, as it is south of Dozón (where AP-53 turns into AG-53).










You can see that AG-53 was designed as a toll road, all interchanges are trumpets, so they could fit a toll station on it. They also built ramps to a rest area that was never built.


----------



## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Interesting situation, AG-53 has the status of an autovía, but is signed as AP-53.


Could it be that Galicia basically robbed a motorway ( or its tolls ) off Fomento/Madrid or does AG mean Autovia de Granada in which case Galicia is entirely innocent. You already know how terminally confused I am about Spanish road nomenclatures Chris.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Galicia has some interesting road numbering.

AG = Autovía Galicia?
VRG = Vía Rápida Galicia?
CG = Carretera Galicia / general?
VG = Vía Galicia?

And what are EP, CP, DP? Some VG routes have decimal numbers too :nuts:


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## CNGL

VG and CG were originally VRG and CRG (_Vía Rápida Gallega_ and _Corredor Rápido Gallego_). The _vía para automóviles_ concept was originally called _vía rápida_ before it was changed in 2003 (but to me it sounds the same as _autovía_). The VG and CG numbering follows the format <C-V<G-x.x, with the first x indicating the province where it's located (1 = Corunna, 2 = Lugo, 3 = Ourense though currently there are none, 4 = Pontevedra). and the x after the dot assigned sequentially (and not a decimal number, here we use a comma to separate them). As for CP, EP, DP all of them are provincial roads, with CP meaning _carretera provincial_, EP the same but in Galician (_Estrada provincial_) and DP meaning _deputación_ (or _diputación_) _provincial_.

Meanwhile I was browsing the area South of Bilbao and found an interesting situation: if one gets off AP-68 through exit 3 (where Areta troll plaza is located), just after the toll one crosses the provincial from Biscay into Alava (Though turning left inmediately afterwards will return one to Biscay).


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> Galicia has some interesting road numbering.
> 
> AG = Autovía Galicia?
> VRG = Vía Rápida Galicia?
> CG = Carretera Galicia / general?
> VG = Vía Galicia?
> 
> And what are EP, CP, DP? Some VG routes have decimal numbers too :nuts:


Just change "Galicia" (noun) for "Gallega" (feminine adjective) and you'll have the right names.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The LO-20/N-232/AP-68 interchange in Recajo (east of Logroño) will open to traffic in February or March 2017.

http://www.europapress.es/la-rioja/...vicio-enlace-232-20-ap-68-20161019175028.html


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## alserrod

Signs are already two years ago or so. They point AP-68 but are hidden.


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *A60:* Puente Villarente – Santas Martas-South 20km (? to > 2017) – ? – map


Works were resumed but we can't say they're advancing at an impressive speed. Opening in 2018 is more likely than in 2017 according to eyewitnesses in the Spanish forum.




























http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias/leon/a-60-avanza-veinte-kilometros-obra-ejecucion_1107220.html




MichiH said:


> *A33:* La Font de la Figuera (A35) – Caudete (A31) 12.5km (? to _suspended_) – ? – map


Works on this section are advancing at a good pace. According to eyewitnesses, in the recent weeks the progress has been considerable and the last layers of asphalt are being laid. Let's see if an opening before the end of 2016 is still possible, it would be a positive surprise.


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## MichiH

clickgr said:


> How long is it going to last the journey between Jaca and Pamplona on the new road when finished? Is there any indication for the completion date?


About 40km A21/A23 are not yet u/c. I think it won't be opened in the near future but any time after 2020 if ever.


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## ChrisZwolle

*C-25 Eix Transversal III*

The final and westernmost segment of C-25 'Eix Transversal' in Catalonia, from Manresa to Cervera.

1. 

C-25-78 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. Manresa-Nord.

C-25-81 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. Manresa-Oest.

C-25-84 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. C-37 to Igualada. C-37 has been upgraded a couple of years ago.

C-25-88 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

C-25-90 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. Most interchanges west of Manresa lead to small villages, C-25 traffic is very light here.

C-25-93 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. Rajadell.

C-25-95 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. Castellar.

C-25-101 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. Fonolossa. 

C-25-105 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. More suffixed N-141 routes.

C-25-108 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. Calaf

C-25-111 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. Another exit to Calaf.

C-25-115 by European Roads, on Flickr

13. Sant Ramon.

C-25-118 by European Roads, on Flickr

14. The landscape flattens out.

C-25-120 by European Roads, on Flickr

15. The Lleida basin, a flat, agricultural area with not much to offer to tourists except for the city of Lleida.

C-25-121 by European Roads, on Flickr

16. Les Oluges.

C-25-123 by European Roads, on Flickr

17. The A-2 interchange. The exit numbering on C-25 is distance based and could extend across A-2 to the Aragón border to start at 0 in case of Catalan independence.

C-25-127 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> The final and westernmost segment of C-25 'Eix Transversal' in Catalonia, from Manresa to Cervera.
> 
> 15. The Lleida basin, a flat, agricultural area with not much to offer to tourists except for the city of Lleida.


Better said, there's nothing interesting in the Lleida/Lerida basin (and basically the Southern half of the province), the city itself is ugly.



ChrisZwolle said:


> 17. The A-2 interchange. The exit numbering on C-25 is distance based and could extend across A-2 to the Aragón border to start at 0 in case of Catalan independence.


It has been that way from the day they first renumbered their roads in 2000 (no independence in sight, and won't happen anyway). All national roads have a hidden C-xx number, and it's hinted by the high kmposts some start at (And in the C-31 case by the presence of a C-31B near Salou, nowhere near signed C-31).


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## alserrod

Yeah, indeed, AFAIK, C-1X are south-north, C-2X are west-east, C-3X are paralel to coast (km. in south) and C-4X, C-5X and C-6X are opposite to coast (km.0 in the coast)

Road numbers were ready to have all main ones, even motorways or national roads (this is, should a N-XXX is between C-1X and C-1Y, there will be a "gap" for national road, just in case it would be managed by Catalan government and renamed)

Thus.... A-2 start in Madrid but Catalan government considered that should they manage it, they will rename as C-25 from Aragon and A-2 to any other name from Cervera to El Vendrell.


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## g.spinoza

CNGL said:


> Better said, there's nothing interesting in the Lleida/Lerida basin (and basically the Southern half of the province), the city itself is ugly.


I sadly agree. On our way to Madrid we stopped there to sleep, in a hotel near the station... we didn't feel very safe...


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## ChrisZwolle

Lleida has a nice cathedral, it's visible from afar.









On the other hand I did found western Catalonia to have a quite poor feeling. Ugly towns, very low-standard public spaces (i.e. sidewalks, house / building exteriors, etc). In rural areas it's not uncommon to see collapsed and derelict farms / houses. It's quite different from Aragón and Navarra in my experience.


----------



## clickgr

ChrisZwolle said:


> On the other hand I did found western Catalonia to have a quite poor feeling. Ugly towns, very low-standard public spaces (i.e. sidewalks, house / building exteriors, etc). In rural areas it's not uncommon to see collapsed and derelict farms / houses. It's quite different from Aragón and Navarra in my experience.


East Aragon near Catalonia is also ugly. Towns like Tamarite, Monzon and the villages around for example.


----------



## CNGL

Monzon has a castle, itself worth visiting (I still have to do so). I agree the Litera _comarca_ has little interest.

Anyway, the ugliest town I've ever seen is not in those areas. It's Alfamen in the middle of Zaragoza province. It's so ugly, I actually conducted a poll asking what was uglier, if the town or the back of a fridge, and the town won. Nearby Almonacid de la Sierra is far nicer and well worth a visit. And Longares, another neighboring town, features a mudejar (hispanic-muslim)-style church tower which remains visible from A-23 motorway for several kilometers.


----------



## gincan

ChrisZwolle said:


> On the other hand I did found western Catalonia to have a quite poor feeling. Ugly towns, very low-standard public spaces (i.e. sidewalks, house / building exteriors, etc). In rural areas it's not uncommon to see collapsed and derelict farms / houses. It's quite different from Aragón and Navarra in my experience.


It is a part of Spain that has been on the receiving end for the better part of the last few centuries, ransacked and flattened through several conflicts, what the French did not destroy during the Napoleon invasion the civil wars of 19 and 20th century finished of.

Most cities and villages in that part of Spain are composed of piles of rubble cobbled together from the ruins of wars. To expensive to repair and to ugly to preserve. 40 years of moronic economic policies during the dictatorship didn't help either.


----------



## clickgr

Calatayud as a city is ugly too. However there is an amazing monastery and natural park called Monasterio de Piedra not very far which is definitely worth to visit. Aragaon besides Zaragoza is more interesting in the areas near the Pyrenees for both historical towns and natural sightseeing.


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## arctic_carlos

Lleida isn't probably the most beautiful city in Catalonia, but still it has some remarkable places which are nice to visit (both cathedrals, Paeria palace, riverside walk). However the province itself has amazing tourist attractions, especially in the Pyrenees. It's just the southern part of the province that offers almost nothing to the tourist, as it relies on agriculture and many towns aren't well preserved. 

However, western Catalonia is neither poor nor unsafe for Spanish standards. Lleida is of course Catalonia's poorest province, as it's the only one without coast, but it's still richer than the Spanish average. Even in the towns that have a significant amount of migrants due to the jobs in agriculture or in the food industry there aren't any important safety issues for western European standards. They're just boring places, with a significant amount of elderly population due to migrations of younger generations to the cities (namely Barcelona).


----------



## Suburbanist

Spanish cities are too compacted, except along stretches on the Mediterranean coast or around Madrid. I never understood that, land in Spain is cheap, cities like Zaragoza and Sevilla have too small of a footprint for their population even if there is a lot of dry-ish land around them to expand horizontally.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-10 Irurtzun - Altsasu*

Some photos of A-10, a 29 kilometer east-west autovía that runs from AP-15 at Irurtzun to A-1 at Altsasu, in Navarra.

The motorway opened in stages between 1992 and 1995 and replaced N-240-A. It has an unusual exit density (even by Spanish standards), there are 16 exits and 2 motorway interchanges along the 29 km run. There are hardly sections more than 2 km in length with no exits.

map









1. Coming from AP-15, taking A-10 west.

A-10-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. A-10 runs through a canyon.

A-10-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. Red de Carreteras de Navarra.

A-10-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. Etxarren.

A-10-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. Altsasu is located at the A-1 interchange, it's also the largest town along A-10.

A-10-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

A-10-10 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

A-10-12 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. Ihabar.

A-10-14 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. Irañeta.

A-10-16 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. Uharte-Arakil.

A-10-19 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. Uharte-Arakil.

A-10-21 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. Arruazu.

A-10-23 by European Roads, on Flickr

13. Lakuntza.

A-10-25 by European Roads, on Flickr

14. Arbizu.

A-10-28 by European Roads, on Flickr

15. This is the only exit of A-10 between the termini that connects to a regional road that extends beyond the valley.

A-10-30 by European Roads, on Flickr

16. 

A-10-33 by European Roads, on Flickr

17. Urdiain.

A-10-35 by European Roads, on Flickr

18. Altsasu. It's a bit larger than the previous villages and towns and has supermarkets. I stopped at one for some groceries.

A-10-39 by European Roads, on Flickr

19. The A-1 interchange.

A-10-41 by European Roads, on Flickr

20. This is an A-1 exit, however westbound traffic can only access it from A-10.

A-10-43 by European Roads, on Flickr

21. 

A-10-44 by European Roads, on Flickr

22. Urbasa. My campsite was located on the plateau.

A-10-46 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## CNGL

This is actually the second A-10, the first one is now numbered M-11. Also, it doesn't run through a canyon, it's A-15 just North of Irurtzun which crosses one.

IIRC that was the day I drove all the way to Noain (just South of Pamplona).


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## Metred

The Sakana valley is very nice for driving. Good roads and amazing views of opposing mountain ranges, looming at both sides. Also, very picturesque towns. I've always liked it.


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## Suburbanist

During the Franco era, which border was most cumbersome or policed? Spain-France, Span-Portugal or Spain-Andorra?

(I'm excluding Gibraltar because the dictatorial government closed off Gilbraltar in 1949).


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## verreme

^^ In the post-Civil War years, what was left of communist and anarchist militias in Spain (known as _maquis_) fled to France and performed more or less regular incursions into Spain. That intensified with the end of WWII when those who had joined the _Résistance_ returned to Spain, though it was mostly dead by the end of the 1940s. Also, ETA terrorists constantly moved between Spain and France. So the border with France was very policed. I'm not sure about the Portuguese border -in fact, I'm not sure if it was open at all throughout the dictatorship. Portugal was under military rule too, so I don't think antifascist guerrillas would seek shelter there.

As for the border with Andorra, the main issue there was smuggling. Until the 1950s Spain did not import anything from abroad (_autarquía_), and neither did it export, due to the unreal value of the _peseta_ (at pair with the British pound) and extremely high taxes for imported goods. Smugglers regularly brought all kinds of goods from Andorra into Spain, a practice that continued well after the suppression of this disastrous economic policy. The dirt road that connects Andorra with the village of Tor was one of the "famous" smuggling routes.


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## ChrisZwolle

*C-13*

Road C-13 in Catalunya, from Camerasa to Àger. A scenic stretch of road, that is a well-designed highway with climbing lanes, wide lanes, good signalisation. I'm always surprised by the lack of traffic on roads like this. Rural areas of Spain seem to have little mobility. Similar areas in France tend to have more traffic.


C-13-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


C-13-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


C-13-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


C-13-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


C-13-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


C-13-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Traffic on C-13 depends highly on the day of the week and the time of the year. As a child I used to take this road with my family on ski weekends and on Sundays it was almost always congested (15-20 years ago).


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## ChrisZwolle

The high standard is also to improve access to remote areas. Without a good design speed, it would take very long on dangerous roads to reach places like Tremp, La Pobla de Segur or Sort.

Although C-13 is a wide road, it is still very curvy from Camarasa to the Congost de Terradets. They managed to build a wide road without having to use large bridges.


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## alserrod

N-232 in eastbound from Zaragoza has had several fatal accidents in last weeks.


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## Farnan

Spanish traffic on toll motorways are highly seasonal. AP-1 is the most extreme but almost all of them are more crowded in summer than the rest of the year. 

This is like the complaints of A-3 being 2x2. Any section of A-42 between Parla and Toledo has more traffic than A-3 between Arganda and A-31. However, the A-3 has more potents peaks.

Exampleof seasonal motorways:
-A-4 Madridejos 21.8k of AADT, 32,2k on AADT on August.

Almost all the non-urban sections of motoreay are seasonal with two exceptions:
-Roads that only serves one city that has no seasonal traffic (A-42 Toledo, A-58 Caceres).
-Roads that are not routes of emigration or going to the beach in Andalucia y Extremadura. A-4 between Cordoba and Seville.


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## ChrisZwolle

*toll roads*

If I'm reading this correct, a large number of toll road concessions will not be extended between 2018 and 2021, according to ABC.

* AP-1 Burgos - Armiñón (2018)
* AP-2 Zaragoza - El Vendrell (2021)
* AP-4 Sevilla - Cádiz (2019)
* AP-7 La Jonquera - Tarragona (2021)
* AP-7 Tarragona - Alicante (2019)

Does this also mean they will become toll-free? Or will they be toll roads operated by the government? I believe such a scenario is currently not common in Spain, but it is in some other EU countries, most prominently in Greece, Croatia and Poland.

In case of becoming untolled, the AP-7 corridor would save motorists almost € 65 in tolls (one-way!)


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## g.spinoza

^^ In Italy, when a toll concession expires, you just invite tenders for a new one: maybe it is the same in Spain?


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## arctic_carlos

That's currently more of a political issue in Spain.

Broadly explained, our motorway system consists of a few toll motorways (_autopistas de peaje_) built in the 60s-80s and a majority of toll-free motorways (_autovías_) built since the mid 80s until now. In addition, there are some bankrupt toll motorways built during the times of the real estate bubble (2000-2008) and also some toll-free _autopistas_ from the 70s-90s.

This dual system has always created tensions between regions, as toll motorways are especially found in the Mediterranean and Ebro corridors, while in the rest of the country there are few of them, and where they exist they're isolated tolled sections (e.g. AP-4 or AP-66), not whole corridors like AP-7 or AP-68.

In addition, the government has spent a lot of money in the last two decades building toll-free motorways next to toll motorways in order to calm angry toll payers down in some regions (e.g. A-7 and AP-7 in Tarragona). But it seems that now they've finally realized this approach is unsustainable, so it's perhaps the time to finally make our network toll free.

It's highly unlikely they invite tenders for new concessions once the current ones expire; it would be very unpopular and seen again as a biased action against some regions. Besides, the ruling party has been repeating in the last 5 years that no concessions would be extended once they expire. However, I wouldn't rule out that instead of making them toll-free, the government starts operating toll motorways, but with a considerable reduction in toll fares.

That's what happened in AP-8 (Bilbao - Irún) when its concession expired and was assumed by the provincial governments of Bizkaia and Gipuzkoa.


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## arctic_carlos

*A-63*



MichiH said:


> *A63:* Cornellana – Doriga 2.4km (? to _suspended_) – ? – map


Works were restarted in May last year. Opening in *June 2017*.










Source: http://www.lne.es/occidente/2016/10/08/doriga-cornellana-estaran-unidas-autovia/1994856.html


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## ChrisZwolle

That bridge was considered the largest of its kind in Spain, it is 875 meters long, 70 meters tall and has a main span of 160 meters.


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## verreme

There's an issue concerning the junction between A-2 and AP-7 in Castellbisbal.

Works for this much-needed connection started in 2006 and were halted shortly after due to the budget cuts. Then, someone in Fomento realized that the project didn't have enough capacity for the enourmous amount of traffic that it'll handle (40.000 vehicles per day, and the two flyovers will only have one through lane). Not only it will provide a toll-free shortcut between these motorways (the current connection costs drivers €2 and makes a big detour on substandard, congested roadways), but it will also funnel all the heavy traffic reaching the industrial areas in Vallès Oriental and Baix Llobregat (where some of the biggest employers in Barcelona metro area are) from A-2 and AP-7. Currently, many of these trucks are forced into two-lane local roads.

Two modifications to the original project were approved and implemented. These involved lengthening the merging lanes in AP-7 and A-2. However, in Fomento they aren't convinced that this will work and they are thinking about modifying the project once more. So, after years of very slow process, works are halted once more.

Link to the source. You can see the flyovers (which already have the final tarmac layer) on Google Maps.

This is the most travelled corridor in Barcelona metro area. A-2 carries in excess of 100.000 vehicles per day and congestion inbound starts in Castellbisbal. The new junction will put a lot of pressure on a road that's already exceeding capacity. AP-7 runs parallel to it, but there's also a lot of congestion in El Papiol junction, and there are no local exits between Sant Cugat and Martorell -which leaves all the industrial areas there without a motorway. Unlike A-7 in Tarragona, this is not about providing a toll-free alternative to a toll road, but about providing access to the biggest industrial areas in Barcelona metro.

The effect of B-40 on A-2 and AP-7 is also to be seen. Abrera-Terrassa stretch will open soon and it will certainly relieve the road network in the Vallès region.


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## CNGL

arctic_carlos said:


> That's what happened in AP-8 (Bilbao - Irún) when its concession expired and was assumed by the provincial governments of Bizkaia and Gipuzkoa.


In addition and much like AP-68, AP-8 was originally retained by the Ministry of Public Works (later Fomento) through concession, but once it expired (in 1999 and without being extended) it was handed over to Biscay and Guipuscoa. Since then there are no roads owned by Fomento in the latter.


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## ChrisZwolle

*C-13 Congost de Terradets*

I also made a video of C-13 through the Congost de Terradets / Terradets Canyon. It's quite scenic.


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## alserrod

A-23 to open second carriage in Nueno-Arguis again tomorrow.

It was cut due to problems with some rocks and the mountain. Works are already away.

Tomorrow all Pyrenees ski resort will open, next week Tuesday and Thursday are holidays and it is expected to have heavy traffic.


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## CNGL

I was about to post that. 

As we know, back in March some rocks fell over the Northbound carriageway of A-23, crushing a couple cars and forcing to temporarily detour all traffic onto the other roadway. Meanwhile a new snowshed (better termed as 'rock shed' in this case) has been built, and thus the Nueno-Isuela gorge section is fully operational again.


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## alserrod

This is, all traffic, till today, has been in carriageway direction Huesca being 1x1 for 5 km.

Since tomorrow, 2x2 again.


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## ChrisZwolle

*NA-2011 Puerto de Larrau*

Puerto de Larrau is a 1585 meter high mountain pass in Navarra, on the border with France. It's next to Pic d'Orhy, the westernmost 2000+ peak in the Pyrenees. 



1. Coming from the south. The final 4 kilometers to the border are above the tree line.

Puerto de Larrau-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

Puerto de Larrau-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. Pic d'Orhy / Ori straight ahead

Puerto de Larrau-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. There is a short tunnel on the Spanish side.

Puerto de Larrau-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. De Puerto de Larrau.

Puerto de Larrau-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. Welcome to Navarra.

Puerto de Larrau-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. The view towards the east.

Puerto de Larrau-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. A little bit higher (circa 1700 meters). 

Puerto de Larrau-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## alserrod

That mountain pass was crossed by Tour de France in 1996 as an homage to M.Indurain, arriving to Pamplona and crossing on his homevillage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Tour_de_France


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## arctic_carlos

CNGL said:


> I was about to post that.
> 
> As we know, back in March some rocks fell over the Northbound carriageway of A-23, crushing a couple cars and forcing to temporarily detour all traffic onto the other roadway. Meanwhile a new snowshed (better termed as '*rock shed*' in this case) has been built, and thus the Nueno-Isuela gorge section is fully operational again.












Source: http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...da-en-en/f8294cc6-0af6-41ab-bdf2-24fce592253d


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## alserrod

Thanks for picture. I will copy it in local threads


----------



## MichiH

arctic_carlos said:


> These 3 sections on MichiH's list are actually 6 different sections according to the official terminology (which in addition goes East to West, whereas MichiH's goes West to East):
> 
> La Mallona-Venta Nueva
> Venta Nueva-Santiuste
> Santiuste-El Burgo de Osma
> Burgo de Osma-San Esteban de Gormaz (Oeste)
> San Esteban de Gormaz (Oeste)-Langa de Duero
> Langa de Duero-Aranda de Duero
> 
> And the Minister announced today that *4 of them* will open in *September 2018*, while *the other 2* will follow in *September 2019*, although he didn't specifically mention which ones are to open on each date. We can easily guess that Fresnillo de las Duenas – Langa de Duero (Langa de Duero-Aranda de Duero according to the official terminology) is one of the sections opening in 2019, as the construction contract was terminated a few months ago and nothing has changed, but I've no idea which one is the other one opening in 2019. :dunno:


Wikipedia indicates that the A11 section next to the one to be tendered again should be opened in 2019. The source indicates that it's to be opened by Mid 2019 (which seems to be similar to September) but the remaining 4 sections to be opened in spring 2018. What should I indicate, Spring or September or maybe Mid 2018? :dunno:


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Most press articles covering the meeting between the Minister and the regional President indicate September 2018 as the opening date (e.g. http://www.efe.com/efe/espana/econo...-cyl-y-todo-el-noroeste-espanol/10003-3110791). I'd rather trust them than wikipedia. But I also like the mid-2018 approach, it's difficult to know the exact date in advance.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-63*

The 875 meter long and 75 meter high bridge across the Narcea River near Cornellana, Asturias. It will open to traffic in the spring.


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## verreme

^^ B-224 is not old N-II.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Port de la Bonaigua is a 2,072 meter high mountain pass in the Pyrenees, just south of the border with France. The pass is located on an east-west segment of road. I believe it's the highest pass in the Spanish Pyrenees.



I guess it is, at least providing main paved roads and so on.

Surfing on internet, the highest Spanish mountain pass in Europe is Calar Alto (this is, paved in both directions)

https://www.google.es/maps/place/Ob...2591ce2dacff59f!8m2!3d37.2208416!4d-2.5467574

2.180 m osl



and highest in Spain is on TF-21 with 2.300ish mosl

https://www.google.es/maps/search/puerto+del+teide/@28.2536374,-16.6291229,1490m/data=!3m1!1e3


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## CNGL

verreme said:


> ^^ B-224 is not old N-II.


The Plan Peña didn't specify N-II to run on the old Madrid-French border at La Jonquera road (which has always gone through el Bruc) between Igualada and Martorell, instead it said the designation should run on current C-244 and B-224 (B-224z where the old road has been bypassed). But at some point it was realigned onto the original Madrid to La Jonquera route. N-II also ran on a different route Northeast of Barcelona, the original route runs along the coast and was assigned C-251, while N-II was on current C-35 (I even saw a map showing this!).


----------



## CNGL

Now I've realized I didn't answer this:


Farnan said:


> N-640 already went through its actual itinerary.


Nope, at first it didn't run to Vilagarcia de Arousa. The Plan Peña said from Lalin N-640 should run to Pontevedra on what is now PO-536 and N-541. This is further evidenced at the PO-536/N-541 junction, Lugo is signed. Originally N-541 ended at this point, and N-640 came from the right and continued straight.


----------



## Aokromes




----------



## verreme

CNGL said:


> The Plan Peña didn't specify N-II to run on the old Madrid-French border at La Jonquera road (which has always gone through el Bruc) between Igualada and Martorell, instead it said the designation should run on current C-244 and B-224 (B-224z where the old road has been bypassed). But at some point it was realigned onto the original Madrid to La Jonquera route. N-II also ran on a different route Northeast of Barcelona, the original route runs along the coast and was assigned C-251, while N-II was on current C-35 (I even saw a map showing this!).


This must have been for a very short time. The road from Madrid to La Jonquera via Barcelona did always run through El Bruc and then along the coast. In fact present-day C-35 was much worse than the coastal road until it was upgraded in the late 1960s. N-II along Maresme coast was upgraded earlier than the rest of the route, in the very early 60s or even late 50s.


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

*A-66 Ruta de la Plata*
Driving from Cáceres to Salamanca (Spain) 8.12.2016 Timelapse x4


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *BU30:* Villalbilla de Burgos (A231) – Quintanaduenas ~8km (? to December 2016) – ? – map


It has opened today:



> *Y 32 años después, Burgos cerró su circunvalación*
> 
> 
> El ministro de Fomento, Íñigo de la Serna, inaugura el último de los tramos de la BU-30, situado entre Villalbilla y Quintanadueñas
> 
> Con su apertura se cierra por fin el anillo de circunvalación de la capital provincial
> 
> Supone una mejora directa de los accesos al polígono de Villalonquéjar


And map taken form the official press release:


----------



## arctic_carlos

*Fuerteventura*



MichiH said:


> *FV1:* Lajares – Caldereta 12km (? to December 2016) [1st c/w] – ? – map


Opening on December 29.

Source: http://eldia.es/canarias/2016-12-16...arretera-Tenerife-Fuerteventura-final-mes.htm


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-21*



MichiH said:


> *A21:* Santa Cilia – Jaca-West 9.0km (? to >= 2017) – ? – map


As a Christmas present, some fresh pictures of A-21 posted originally by *Stuco* in the winter sports forum nevasport. They were taken in early December:



>


----------



## alserrod

Thx.... are they close to Jaca?

I'll post it in another thread


----------



## Suburbanist

Was the bill for the construction of the Somport tunnel split by half between France and Spain?


----------



## alserrod

afaik.... 50,01 France - 49,99 Spain due to some extra expenses about environment issues out of project or so

Maintenance is 50-50


----------



## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> Thx.... are they close to Jaca?
> 
> I'll post it in another thread


In the original post in nevasport (http://www.nevasport.com/phorum/read.php?75,501534,page=94) you can read the detailed description of each picture, but as the text is written in Spanish I didn't copy it here.


----------



## alserrod

arctic_carlos said:


> In the original post in nevasport (http://www.nevasport.com/phorum/read.php?75,501534,page=94) you can read the detailed description of each picture, but as the text is written in Spanish I didn't copy it here.


Thanks

Yes it is.

Half of words are local sites (rivers, villages and so on). Therefore, not easy to translate with a computer or so.

But is it the closest side of A-21 to Jaca east


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*AP-7*

I filmed AP-7 along the Costa del Sol last year.

This is the Marbella - Estepona segment. The tolls are outrageous, with € 5 for 23 km in the high season. I wonder if these AP-7 segments are the most expensive toll roads in Spain on a 'per kilometer' basis (this not being a bridge or tunnel).


----------



## alserrod

Quite expensive.... I guess 0,1€/km is average but have to check.
Anyway.... there is a more expensive one....


----------



## alserrod

3,023 km and 5 euro for non-residents

https://www.google.es/maps/@39.731444,2.6951979,5204m/data=!3m1!1e3

(or take MA11a)


----------



## arctic_carlos

In this link you can find toll prices of several motorways in Spain (all those managed by Abertis):

https://www.autopistas.com/es/content/precios-y-peajes

Undoubtedly C-32 between Sitges and Castelldefels (a section I drive at least twice a week) has the most expensive tolls/km in Catalonia: €6.57 for a 10km section. It has indeed several tunnels, but it can't be considered a "tunnel toll", as it's part of a longer stretch of motorway (Barcelona - El Vendrell). But if you just use it between exits 31 and 41, (numbered following mileage), you have to pay €6.57.

Fortunately there are several discounts available, especially for regular users, who can save up to 60% of the price. But it's quite expensive anyway.


----------



## alserrod

Yes, they are four tunnels indeed and it is free till last exit before first tunnel and after last tunnel. If you wanna go through coastal road.... totally free, but it is for sightseeing that road.

This is, they focus in people who go from Barcelona to south and assume that core traffic will cross tunnels. They let people doing free journeys within other exits but to arrive to Sitges you are really paying from Barcelona even if you took it in last before exit.


Once I found a page with all fares but not now. Sorry


----------



## sponge_bob

arctic_carlos said:


> A 34.2 km section of future A-15 motorway between Fuensaúco (east of Soria) and Ágreda west has been put to public information for the purposes of environmental assessment (I don't really know what that exactly means :lol.


It means when you plan a big road you consult with the public on environmental implications before you finally commit to building it and start your final detailed design.

Standard EU practice.


----------



## italystf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_assessment#EU


----------



## CNGL

I was doing some research about Aragonese roads, and I found they have fixed the A-232/CV-20 anomaly. Both are first-order regional roads, but they became local roads once they hit the Aragon/Valencian Community border (on the maps both lines changed from orange to yellow). A couple years ago, the regional government of Aragon took over a couple provincial roads and rerouted A-232 so now it meets CV-20 at the regional border, thus eliminating the anomaly (the old route of A-232 is now numbered A-2710).

And a fun fact: Once works on a local road are completed, there will be A-2, A-22, A-222 and A-2222 all within Aragon.


----------



## alserrod

CNGL said:


> And a fun fact: Once works on a local road are completed, there will be A-2, A-22, A-222 and A-2222 all within Aragon.




In addition, the only one post code with five identic digits is in Aragón
22.222

(there is no post code 11.111, 33.333, 44.444 and so on...)

https://www.google.es/maps/place/22...c1b223d4e!8m2!3d41.6171493!4d-0.2397116?hl=es


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-38*



MichiH said:


> *A38:* Cullera – Favara (AP-7) 10km (? to >= 2017) – ? – map


Delayed to October 2019.

Source: http://www.lasprovincias.es/comunit...ondena-docena-poblaciones-20170127002105.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-2 Zaragoza*

A few photos of A-2 around Zaragoza.

Zaragoza is the fifth largest city in Spain with a population of just over 700,000. It consistently ranks among the least congested major urban areas in Europe, usually scoring near the bottom of the TomTom Congestion Index. 

1. 

A-2-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

A-2-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

A-2-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

A-2-9 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

A-2-11 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

A-2-14 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

A-2-16 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. 

A-2-21 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. 

A-2-22 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. 

A-2-24 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## CNGL

Yawn.

(I drive that road, at least part of it, several times a year)

From the last photo to exit 193 (Ariza) there is an exit number difference of 119, yet there are only 113 km between them (Measured and confirmed by me in both directions), so 6 km are somehow missing. That particular section was dubbed by me the "Pearson S. Trail".


----------



## alserrod

Distance to Zaragoza is weird.... never known where they pointed. I guess, cross with current N-330/A-2 (former A-23)

to overpass city, northbound is faster Barcelona ==> Madrid but has more traffic. It is 3 minutes faster indeed


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-22*

A couple of photos of A-22 from Huesca towards Lleida.

Interestingly, they don't use 'Lérida' on the signs.


A-22-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-13 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-17 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-18 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-20 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-21 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Lleida is the only official name of the city and the one used everywhere, be it in Catalonia or in the rest of Spain. The same rule applies to Girona.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've seen some signs using Lérida. Not on motorways though. 

What about Viella / Vielha?


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> A couple of photos of A-22 from Huesca towards Lleida.
> 
> Interestingly, they don't use 'Lérida' on the signs.


More yawn.

A-22 stops abruptly at Sietamo, it doesn't reach A-23 yet (And won't do so until the 30th of current month).


arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Lleida is the only official name of the city and the one used everywhere, be it in Catalonia or in the rest of Spain. The same rule applies to Girona.


However "Lerida" is used in fairly recent signs in Huesca city. Other signs using "Lerida" are older. I use Lleida (and Girona, and every Catalan town with a different Spanish name to the official one) in every language but Spanish.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ I guess cities can use in their urban signage the name they prefer (Lleida or Lérida). But when it comes to roads managed by the Spanish government, they must stick to the official name (Lleida). As a matter of fact, I've also seen "Saragossa" signs at least once in Catalan roads, but never in roads managed by the Spanish government.

In other bilingual parts of Spain (namely Valencia and Navarre) it's common to see the names of cities written in both Spanish and the other official language, just in Spanish or just in the other official language, without following a particular criterion.


----------



## adevahi

ChrisZwolle said:


> A couple of photos of A-22 from Huesca towards Lleida.
> 
> Interestingly, they don't use 'Lérida' on the signs.


I can't agree with arctic_carlos. When you see a signal indicating the border with our northern neighbour from Aragón, is always written "Francia", even when the signal show the name in french ("France"), it is written also the spanish translation next to it, but you will never see the french name alone.

In the south, we have signals indicating Algeciras and (also) Tánger (moroccan city). The name of Tánger appears in spanish and arab, not only in moroccan; the name of Algeciras sometimes is written also in arab because lot of moroccans go to this place.

So, why "Lleida" instead of "Lérida"? Political reasons based on the absurd that consists "if we don't anger the nationalists, maybe they will forget that they want the independence". If that section of the road is inside Aragón, it *must* have the name in spanish, because it is the only official language in this region. If the destination indicated is in a place with more official languages, it's ok and advisable to put the city in two languages, but... using only one of the languages of the destination because the official name of the city is in that language? There's no logical reason for that and it only can create confussion between people if it were not because today in the media we have to hear continuously the official name even when the conversations are being in spanish.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The idea is continuity. When traveling to Lleida, you eventually have to follow signs that say Lleida. The Netherlands has switched to Liège, Aachen, Köln, etc a number of years ago, because that's what you'll eventually have to follow anyway to reach that destination. The Germans are also changing to Dutch names (Nijmegen instead of Nimwegen for example). 

Sometimes the exonyms are very different from endonyms and may cause confusion. For example Bergen / Mons, Rijsel / Lille, Kassa / Košice, etc. Because signage usually works with the concept 'less is more', the choice was to pick just one name, the endonym. 

The whole exonym / endonym discussion flares up frequently, especially in areas with strong language identities, like Belgium.


----------



## arctic_carlos

adevahi said:


> I can't agree with arctic_carlos. When you see a signal indicating the border with our northern neighbour from Aragón, is always written "Francia", even when the signal show the name in french ("France"), it is written also the spanish translation next to it, but you will never see the french name alone.
> 
> In the south, we have signals indicating Algeciras and (also) Tánger (moroccan city). The name of Tánger appears in spanish and arab, not only in moroccan; the name of Algeciras sometimes is written also in arab because lot of moroccans go to this place.
> 
> So, why "Lleida" instead of "Lérida"? Political reasons based on the absurd that consists "if we don't anger the nationalists, maybe they will forget that they want the independence". If that section of the road is inside Aragón, it *must* have the name in spanish, because it is the only official language in this region. If the destination indicated is in a place with more official languages, it's ok and advisable to put the city in two languages, but... using only one of the languages of the destination because the official name of the city is in that language? There's no logical reason for that and it only can create confussion between people if it were not because today in the media we have to hear continuously the official name even when the conversations are being in spanish.


From a linguistic point of view you're most probably right.

But from a legal perspective, you're comparing the treatment given to cities outside Spain, in foreign countries (France or Morocco), to the way a city *within* Spain is to be signed. Within Spain, that city only has an official name, Lleida, while Morocco and France have no official names at all in Spain as they aren't part of Spain.

That's why I think the most logical thing for the Spanish government to do on its roads and motorways is to respect and sign the official name given by its own Spanish legal order to a city within the country.

Of course, that doesn't prevent anybody from calling the city the way they want. When speaking in Catalan people say Terol, Saragossa and Osca instead of Teruel, Zaragoza and Huesca, so I find completely normal to say Lérida or Gerona instead of Lleida and Girona when speaking in Spanish. But that is a linguistic point of view which doesn't have anything to do with signage on motorways, which must follow official naming conventions (also by the reasons stated by Chris), at least in State-owned motorways.

And that also applies to State-owned media or rail companies, for instance. I would rather leave politics out of this debate.



ChrisZwolle said:


> The idea is continuity. When traveling to Lleida, you eventually have to follow signs that say Lleida. The Netherlands has switched to Liège, Aachen, Köln, etc a number of years ago, because that's what you'll eventually have to follow anyway to reach that destination. The Germans are also changing to Dutch names (Nijmegen instead of Nimwegen for example).
> 
> Sometimes the exonyms are very different from endonyms and may cause confusion. For example Bergen / Mons, Rijsel / Lille, Kassa / Košice, etc. Because signage usually works with the concept 'less is more', the choice was to pick just one name, the endonym.
> 
> The whole exonym / endonym discussion flares up frequently, especially in areas with strong language identities, like Belgium.


The issue is quite problematic when driving in Belgium: depending on where you are, you have to follow signs towards Liège or Luik, quite confusing given it's a Belgian city. I could understand and even accept if in Germany Liège was signed Lüttig, given it's a city in a foreign country, and no official naming rules apply, but I think that within Belgium Liège should be the only name used in official signs.


----------



## adevahi

ChrisZwolle said:


> The idea is continuity. When traveling to Lleida, you eventually have to follow signs that say Lleida. The Netherlands has switched to Liège, Aachen, Köln, etc a number of years ago, because that's what you'll eventually have to follow anyway to reach that destination. The Germans are also changing to Dutch names (Nijmegen instead of Nimwegen for example).
> 
> Sometimes the exonyms are very different from endonyms and may cause confusion. For example Bergen / Mons, Rijsel / Lille, Kassa / Košice, etc. Because signage usually works with the concept 'less is more', the choice was to pick just one name, the endonym.
> 
> The whole exonym / endonym discussion flares up frequently, especially in areas with strong language identities, like Belgium.


What's the point about that? Simple: Lérida and Gerona are not exonym inside Catalonia, spanish it's also official and widely spoken there, catalan is not spoken in the place you took that photos.



arctic_carlos said:


> From a linguistic point of view you're most probably right.
> 
> But from a legal perspective, you're comparing the treatment given to cities outside Spain, in foreign countries (France or Morocco), to the way a city *within* Spain is to be signed. Within Spain, that city only has an official name, Lleida, while Morocco and France have no official names at all in Spain as they aren't part of Spain.
> 
> That's why I think the most logical thing for the Spanish government to do on its roads and motorways is to respect and sign the official name given by its own Spanish legal order to a city within the country.


The official names given in France or Morocco to their places are official names in any other place who accepts the self-sovereignty of France and Morocco.
In my opinion the signs should appear in both languages, even when the section is in Catalonia or even when it's outside; when the owner of the road is Spanish government or Catalan government.
I have been living in Tamil Nadu (south india) where hindi is not spoken and the language used by 99% of people is tamil: all the signs in Tamil Nadu are in tamil and english, just because english is official in the whole India. They are also written in hindi even when no one in this state can speak/understand this language (but it's official in the whole country too).



arctic_carlos said:


> I would rather leave politics out of this debate.


Yes, of course. I don't want to look as a troll. If I joined in this conversation it's mainly because it will turn in something much more important in the near future, but SSC is not the place and obviously some opinions here aren't going to solve anything, so that was my last post about this topic.


----------



## arctic_carlos

adevahi said:


> What's the point about that? Simple: Lérida and Gerona are not exonym inside Catalonia, spanish it's also official and widely spoken there, catalan is not spoken in the place you took that photos.


Lérida and Gerona may not be exonyms in Catalonia, but democratically elected bodies in both cities have expressed their will not to be officially called with those names but only Lleida and Girona. 

That said, if Lérida and Gerona were also official names (which I wouldn't oppose), I would support them being signposted on roads, just in the same way Pamplona/Iruña or Alicante/Alacant are usually signposted. 

It's mainly an issue of respecting the will of different territories, where the use of certain names may be a sensitive topic.



adevahi said:


> The official names given in France or Morocco to their places are official names in any other place who accepts the self-sovereignty of France and Morocco.


But the Spanish government is not bound by French or Moroccan laws establishing the official names of their cities, while it is indeed bound by any Spanish decree or law establishing the official names of Spanish cities.

I can understand Girona is signed "Gérone" in French roads, given that the decree or law establishing the official name "Girona" doesn't bind the French authorities. But as Girona is part of Spain, the Spanish authorities are expressly recognizing the will expressed by the city when they sign it with its only official name under Spanish law.

Of course at a local level each city is free to choose how to signpost other cities in their street signs; but at a national level I find it's more appropriate and respectful to follow the rule of using only official names, given the fact that the Spanish State represents all of us.



adevahi said:


> In my opinion the signs should appear in both languages, even when the section is in Catalonia or even when it's outside; when the owner of the road is Spanish government or Catalan government.


I agree with you that in Catalonia road signage should appear in both Catalan and Spanish because Catalonia is officially bilingual Catalan/Spanish. I simply wouldn't apply this rule to names of towns (regardless of the legitimate use of exonyms by speakers of other languages) where local councils have chosen the way they want to be called.


----------



## alserrod

About language signs.... Fomento ministry uses only official name, even the region you are. This is, in Catalonia, Aragonese cities and towns are in Spanish always because it is official name.

Vielha, new signs, always in Aranese, old signs... just guess.


About Catalan roads, out of Catalonia they point Catalan speaking villages in Catalan (all in Valencian region and a some joined to border in Aragon). But they have been standarising it. It is a long time I do not see "Saragossa" in Catalan roads. In addition, I have seen some signs where one Aragonese village is in Catalan (because population there speaks Catalan) and another one, having an own translation, is not written in Catalan.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-22-21 by European Roads, on Flickr


Ahead "Monestry of El Pueyo". It hasn't translation that word, neither in English nor Spanish. It comes from "podium" in Latin and it is used for places over a hill.

One of streches was till that monestry exit and it was pointed as if a big city was... when it is just a hill


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-44 & GR-43*

During a recent visit to Granada, the Minister of Public Works provided new information about the degree of execution of these projects:



MichiH said:


> *A44:* Atarfe (N432) – Santa Fe (A92G) 3km (2007 to 2017/18) – project – map
> *A44:* Santa Fe (A92G) – Las Gabias (A338) 8.7km (2009 to 2017/18) – project – map


Over 75%. Let's see if they manage to complete it in 2017.



MichiH said:


> *GR43:* Pinos Puente – Atarfe (A44) 9.7km (? to 2019) – project – map


50%.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*NEW*: *A44*: Las Gabias (A338) - Alhendín (A44) 6.1km (Late 2016 - Late 2018)

Besides, the Minister announced that works have finally started on the last section of A-44 (thus completing the outer bypass of Granada), Las Gabias - Alhendín (6.1 km), which were awarded in December 2015 (42.18M€). It includes more than 3 km of connecting roads at the interchange with current A-44 towards Motril.

It will be completed in 25 months, but I couldn't exactly find out the date of the beginning of the works. Anyway, in October last year, a member of the ruling party (PP) said the whole outer bypass would open before the end of 2018, so I guess they can make it.

Sources:

http://www.finanzas.com/noticias/empresas/20170201/alcalde-granada-muestra-decepcion-3561014.html

http://www.granadahoy.com/granada/segunda-Circunvalacion_0_1070592999.html

http://www.ideal.es/granada/provinc...o-adjudica-millones-tramo-20151218203455.html


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-32*

Works have also started on the southern bypass of Albacete, part of A-32 (10.5km), which were awarded in December 2015 (57M€). It will be completed in 3 years.

*NEW*: *A32*: west of Albacete (N322) - east of Albacete (A30) 10.5km (January 2017 - Early 2020)

Sources:

http://cadenaser.com/emisora/2017/01/24/radio_albacete/1485243120_336928.html

http://cadenaser.com/emisora/2015/12/19/radio_albacete/1450516798_888323.html


----------



## Tankard

alserrod said:


> Ahead "Monestry of El Pueyo". It hasn't translation that word, neither in English nor Spanish. It comes from "podium" in Latin and it is used for places over a hill.
> 
> One of streches was till that monestry exit and it was pointed as if a big city was... when it is just a hill


It doesn't traslate smoothly to Spanish but it cognates with "poyo".


----------



## alserrod

Yes... and no.

"poyo" is something to stand on or to support you to stay on.

Not the same translation. It is a weird word that remains in a lot of places in the north of that region.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Today's banner is from Molina de Aragón, which is not in Aragón. 

But I got browsing on Google Earth for a future trip to Spain. There seem to be interesting scenery in Teruel province, in particular farther away from A-23 in the lonely mountain ranges. 

The mountain ranges look complex with gorges, valleys and ridges in all directions. Combined with less vegetation, it seems like a good area for photography and filming scenic roads. 

Does anyone know good 'must drive' trips in Teruel province and/or surrounding areas?


----------



## alserrod

Thousands of them... it depends about what kind of landscapes you wanna visit from the car.

To be honest, the triangle Molina-Calamocha-Teruel is the coldest in Spain. 51 years ago we had the lowest "official" temperature measured in Spain (in weather station conditions): -30ºC


You can choose this one

https://www.google.es/maps/dir/Teru...46f52!2m2!1d-1.4694527!2d40.6412339!3e0?hl=es


Departing from Teruel
https://www.google.es/maps/dir/Teru...46f52!2m2!1d-1.4694527!2d40.6412339!3e0?hl=es


visiting one 30ish km Roman acueduct from near Albarracín to Cella. Part of it, just a hole, but with some tunnels

https://www.google.es/maps/dir/Teru...46f52!2m2!1d-1.4694527!2d40.6412339!3e0?hl=es


Albarracin. 1.000 people and a cathedral (officially, there is a "Teruel AND Albarracin" bishop)
https://www.google.es/maps/@40.4076...ToeW8swWD0m1Qc9Z8sQg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

Maybe, pretiest village in Spain


you will cross besides start of Tajo river, longest in Spain+Portugal. It is a little creek that ends.... here


Just after the river starts you will enter Castille for a while (Tajo starts in Aragon for 50 metres only)

will cross Tajo in his first bridge https://www.google.es/maps/@40.3601...x-Q0wdWIqi7D-Sfsar2A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es
(yeah, the same one where last bridge is in Lisbon) and enter again in Aragon

and suddently will cross this mountain pass with a stunning mountainscape
https://www.google.es/maps/@40.3672...CQedBJly-XJwtaIMQ9Pg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

Take a minute to calculate start of Turia/Guadalaviar and Jucar start point. Both go to Mediterranean and no far one to other... but to go from one to another you have to cross Tajo (which goes to Atlantic!!)

Near Orihuela you can have this

https://www.google.es/maps/@40.5189...W-Ob_eqtK0lwUqoOEsdg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

and this
https://www.google.es/maps/@40.5350...NsrxHd5QITDxd-fP4oTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es
(almost 5 km straight away over 1450m)

and Peracense castle
https://www.google.es/maps/@40.6370...HR2mNrgmFE0zjsx9OXRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es



They are just some places to visit. Even in Castille, even in Aragon, thousand of villages, corners and so on are besides the road


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> Does anyone know good 'must drive' trips in Teruel province and/or surrounding areas?


I would generally recommend the area around the Catalonia, Aragon and Valencia tripoint (Terra Alta, Matarraña and Maestrat "comarcas"). 

In the three regions you can find scenic roads and nice towns (Horta de Sant Joan, Valderrobres or Morella, for instance). It's far from the main touristic circuits, but some people even call it the Spanish Tuscany. 

As for roads as such, N-420 and N-232 are the main axes, and their quality greatly depends on the section. There are plans to improve N-232, which has two high mountain passes (Torre-Miró and Querol); in a section near the Teruel/Castellón border the works even started, but they were afterwards suspended due to lack of funds.


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## alserrod

About "de Aragón", there is a second village which is not in Aragon too
(it is an enclave and belongs to Navarre)

https://www.google.es/maps/place/50...549415722!8m2!3d42.4614395!4d-1.0924468?hl=es


Dr. Ramon y Cajal, Nobel Medecine award was born there and lived for two years. His father moved too much, each sibling was born in one village and he was born there


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I like those off-the-beaten-path, desolate landscapes. Like this: https://goo.gl/maps/bMUGuFsVKRr


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I like those off-the-beaten-path, desolate landscapes. Like this: https://goo.gl/maps/bMUGuFsVKRr


Maestrazgo shire is the most isolated in Aragon. Only 3 people/km2.

A-226... is quite good!!!!!

Choose A-1702. And it is refurbished now... I remember when seemed one way or so... it is quite more stunning (in addition, you will have to do A-226 and a visit to La Iglesuela, Cantavieja and mainly little Mirambel deserves a visit)


Just choose where to stop in A-1702
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.645...4!1sxlUSULKFf4eKurEuoZxFoQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

or

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.675...4!1sZsYk9jsR_0F7Qpu9pJBurg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


and I remember as an absolutely awful road.....


The shire slogan is "where silence sounds"


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## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Today's banner is from Molina de Aragón, which is not in Aragón.


You have guessed it, Molina de Aragon is not in Aragon, but in Castile-La Mancha. That's why I stylize its name as Molina ¿de Aragon?. Same happens with Petilla ¿de Aragon?, an exclave of Navarre. Which makes up for a funny question: Where in Aragon you can find Basque signage?


ChrisZwolle said:


> But I got browsing on Google Earth for a future trip to Spain. There seem to be interesting scenery in Teruel province, in particular farther away from A-23 in the lonely mountain ranges.
> 
> The mountain ranges look complex with gorges, valleys and ridges in all directions. Combined with less vegetation, it seems like a good area for photography and filming scenic roads.
> 
> Does anyone know good 'must drive' trips in Teruel province and/or surrounding areas?


That's the part of Aragon I have the least explored (nothing at all). A-1702 runs near the Organos de Montoro: https://www.google.es/maps/@40.6755...4!1s63Cemamv_DBaAvzU9ROGxw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656. Google Maps has an error in the area (as usual): A-1403 ends at Aliaga, the road heading Northeast from there to Ejulve is actually part of A-2403. You can also take the route suggested by alserrod, which goes through some forests. Teruel itself is the least populated provincial capital, and to some extent is our particular Bielefeld: Almost 20 years ago they started a successful campaign stating that 'Teruel exists', which led to jokes saying 'Teruel doesn't exist' (And it appears true for Google, as the current satellite pic shows A-23 U/C and it was already complete in 2006). I'll try to confirm or deny it existence in May, if it exists it's definitely worth visiting.

Now that you mention Teruel province, you reminded me I still have pending a road trip to the Northeastern part, which contains several nice towns (Valderrobres, Calaceite, etc.) as well as a regular road section of the Leon-Burgos motorway.


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## alserrod

Chris, if you are thinking in half-paved roads or so, Aliaga one (ask again before next trip) is highly recommended in summer and deeply not recommended these days in winter.
Some villages in the surroundings have been some days isolated due to snow (A-23 was cut for several hours)


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *N-IV:* Dos Hermanas-South (AP4) – Los Palacios-North 8.4km (2015/16 to ?) – project – map


It's expected to open in June 2018.

Source: http://www.diariodesevilla.es/provincia/Gobierno-desdoble-N-IV-Hermanas-Palacios_0_1031896959.html


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> Today's banner is from Molina de Aragón, which is not in Aragón.
> 
> But I got browsing on Google Earth for a future trip to Spain. There seem to be interesting scenery in Teruel province, in particular farther away from A-23 in the lonely mountain ranges.
> 
> The mountain ranges look complex with gorges, valleys and ridges in all directions. Combined with less vegetation, it seems like a good area for photography and filming scenic roads.
> 
> Does anyone know good 'must drive' trips in Teruel province and/or surrounding areas?


A-226 is also in my bucket list. You shouldn't miss the Cabigordo mountain pass: https://goo.gl/maps/5E1VwadDDEz

The A-228 in the Gúdar-Alcalá de la Selva area is quite scenic too. 

I'd also add the western area of Teruel and the bordering regions of Guadalajara and Cuenca. Apart from the endless pine forests around Albarracín, you can visit the source of the river Tajo right at the border between Aragón and Castilla-La Mancha: https://goo.gl/maps/YttBVtyTYex

The CM-210 along the Hoz de Beteta is quite a ride too: https://goo.gl/maps/B5f5DVw57b92

Or the CM-2104 from Cuenca to the Ciudad Encantada: https://goo.gl/maps/Ju5ngZHd8wK2

If you're willing to take part in off-road experiences: https://goo.gl/maps/9bg5MbxLcvH2


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## adevahi

Just saying as a curiosity than in Molina de Aragón was discovered a mineral called today *aragonita* (es.wikipedia.org/wiki/aragonita), because the discovery of it (XVIII century) happened before the creation of the actual borders, and now the name will prevail for always even if it wasn't discovered in what today is Aragón


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## Kvarner-1

ChrisZwolle said:


> The idea is continuity. When traveling to Lleida, you eventually have to follow signs that say Lleida. The Netherlands has switched to Liège, Aachen, Köln, etc a number of years ago, because that's what you'll eventually have to follow anyway to reach that destination. The Germans are also changing to Dutch names (Nijmegen instead of Nimwegen for example).
> 
> Sometimes the exonyms are very different from endonyms and may cause confusion. For example Bergen / Mons, Rijsel / Lille, Kassa / Košice, etc. Because signage usually works with the concept 'less is more', the choice was to pick just one name, the endonym.
> 
> The whole exonym / endonym discussion flares up frequently, especially in areas with strong language identities, like Belgium.


Same thing in Croatia.
In Rijeka signs say Trieste (I) instead of Trst (croatian name for Trieste).
In Zagreb you can follow Budapest (H) instead of Budimpesta (croatian name for Budapest).
In Osijek signs say Pecs (H) instead of Pečuh (croatian name for Pecs).


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## Kvarner-1

But in the region of Istria signs are mostly bilingual croatian/italian.
For example:
Pula/Pola
Rijeka/Fiume
Rovinj/Rovigno
Poreč/Parenzo
...etc...


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-2*



MichiH said:


> *A2:* Macanet de la Selva (C35) – Sils 2.7km (July 2015 to Late 2018) – ? – map


Current degree of execution is around *70%*. Pictures from the local press, showing traffic jams in old N-II last week due to the construction works of the new motorway.














































Source: http://www.diaridegirona.cat/comarques/2017/02/03/desdoblament-n-ii-provoca-cues/827248.html

On the other hand, works of the Vidreres interchange (A-2 - C-35), just south of the Sils - Maçanet section, were awarded in September last year. The existing cloverleaf interchange will be modified to create a more direct C-35 (Barcelona) -> A-2 (Girona) connection, which will be primarily used by northbound traffic leaving toll motorway AP-7 and entering toll-free A-2 towards Girona.

As you can see in the map, south of that interchange (left of the picture), old N-II won't be upgraded to motorway standards (A-2), leaving thus a 11km gap between the end of A-2 and the current end of C-32 in Tordera (which is to be extended to Lloret de Mar).










Source: http://www.elpuntavui.cat/territori...-les-obres-de-lenllac-de-la-2-a-vidreres.html



MichiH said:


> *N-II:* Terradelles – Vilafreser (AP7) 3.3km (June 2015 to 2018?) – ? – map


This short section north of Girona is being slowly upgraded to motorway standards. Hopefully it will be renumbered A-2, but I'm afraid we won't know its final numbering until it opens to traffic.

In any event, the Ministry of Public Works announced earlier this week that works on this section could continue after the project had been modified. I don't know if works were stopped or not during a while, but the 2018 deadline is maintained.

Current degree of execution is *65%*.

Picture from last summer:










Source: http://www.elpuntavui.cat/territori...1000739-el-tram-sils-macanet-a-l-equador.html


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## ChrisZwolle

*N-230 Vielha Tunnel*

The Vielha / Viella Tunnel. It crosses the main chain of the Pyrenees near Vielha. It is a three-lane tunnel, part of N-230.


Túnel de Viella-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Túnel de Viella-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Túnel de Viella-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*N-230 Sopeira*

Scenic N-230 through Sopeira (Aragón).



N-230 Sopeira-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-230 Sopeira-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-230 Sopeira-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-230 Sopeira-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-230 Sopeira-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-230 Sopeira-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## alserrod

At Sopeira you have a huge monestry that can be visited in summer almost all days and on weekends in winter. It is not usual to find a so huge monument with a free entrance (tourism office is in front of monument and it is enough to ask there. They will close office from time to time and will make a free visit to it)


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-21*

Some more photos of A-21 towards Pamplona. A scenic and quiet motorway, there isn't much traffic.


The autovía starts at Tiermas, just in Aragón

A-21-14 by European Roads, on Flickr

Welcome to Navarra!

A-21-15 by European Roads, on Flickr

The 1648 meter long Yesa Tunnel.

A-21-18 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-21-20 by European Roads, on Flickr

The 945 meter long Liédena Tunnel.

A-21-22 by European Roads, on Flickr

Liédena.

A-21-24 by European Roads, on Flickr

What is this?

A-21-25 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-21-27 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-21-29 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-21-32 by European Roads, on Flickr

Lumbier

A-21-34 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-21-35 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## CNGL

Navarre is one of the very few places I don't use its Spanish name (_Navarra_) when writting in Spanish, as I like more the Basque one (_Nafarroa_). Others include several towns and villages in my province where I use the Aragonese name.

Depending on the time of the day you drove you may have seen 'purple' runners crossing the AP-15/A-21 split in Noain, just before Pamplona.


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## alserrod

A-15 indeed. Since A-21 cross is untolled


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## belerophon

My search to understand the term purple runners did only find one match, this site 
I suppose its about tricking the toll?


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## CNGL

^^ It's not what you think. The very same day Chris drove those roads there was a trail race in Noain which I attended, and most of us were wearing purple t-shirts. The race went on this pedestrian overpass which crosses over the AP-15/A-21 split. Oh, and it's signed AP-15 up to the PA-30/PA-31 interchange, but the section bypassing Noain is toll-free.


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## adevahi

ChrisZwolle said:


> What is this?
> 
> A-21-25 by European Roads, on Flickr


If someone can answer... what is this? It seems just a monument, but to complicated for being this the only purpose.

Edit: the full perspective on google maps helped: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.6226...5hT3Np-x3R9a9muVyQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
There is a quarry next to it, or at least there was on may, 2015. I suppose this structure is a necessary protection for the small stones and sand that can reach the road.

Perspective from the path of the quarry:
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.6231...z1nU0izqe6u81TvSuA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1


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## alserrod

It could be an infrastructures against wind too...


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## OulaL

alserrod said:


> It could be an infrastructures against wind too...


I don't see any sense in such a structure covering only a small fraction of that open field.


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## Cobucci

OulaL said:


> I don't see any sense in such a structure covering only a small fraction of that open field.


Perhaps the lateral wind always comes from that side of the road. Some places have a well behaved pattern for winds, both in intensity and direction.

I don't know about this place of the photo, but it is a possibility. I also thought about protection from wind gusts.


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## CNGL

As already said, there is a quarry right next to the motorway (it was still there as of 3 September when both Chris and me drove that section), and that structure protects it from small "projectiles" (stones) that could reach the pavement.


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## adevahi

Yes, please, open the links and it will be obvious what is the structure purpose. It is situated exactly next to the quarry.



adevahi said:


> https://www.google.es/maps/@42.6226...5hT3Np-x3R9a9muVyQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
> There is a quarry next to it, or at least there was on may, 2015. I suppose this structure is a necessary protection for the small stones and sand that can reach the road.
> 
> Perspective from the path of the quarry:
> https://www.google.es/maps/@42.6231...z1nU0izqe6u81TvSuA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1


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## ChrisZwolle

*Col de la Pierre Saint-Martin*

I filmed NA-137 across the 1760 meter* high Col de la Pierre Saint-Martin on the border with France.

Does anyone know if this pass also has a Spanish name? I couldn't find any. There used to be a sign with the French name indicating an altitude of 1802 meters, but it's not there anymore.






* 1760, 1766 and 1802 meters is quoted on the internet.


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## CNGL

Yes, the Piedra de San Martin/Pierre Saint-Martin pass has a Spanish name (the first of two names given here), which is just a translation of the French one. Also, in the video title you got the name of the pass wrong.


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## ChrisZwolle

Thanks, I changed it.

Google Maps puts the border between France and Spain some 700 meters (by road) from the summit, but Spanish road signage and road markings start right at the summit (2:00 in the video). There are no signs indicating you have crossed into Spain, though there is a sign welcoming you to Navarra.


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## VITORIA MAN

the border is where the road pavement changes
https://goo.gl/maps/Hqqyohgx1R22


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Thanks, I changed it.
> 
> Google Maps puts the border between France and Spain some 700 meters (by road) from the summit, but Spanish road signage and road markings start right at the summit (2:00 in the video). There are no signs indicating you have crossed into Spain, though there is a sign welcoming you to Navarra.


Therefore, at Navarra welcome sign, you are in Spain.

Border are in summits in most of cases


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## ChrisZwolle

The Navarra sign is not at the summit though, but where Google Maps puts the border, some 0.7 km south of the summit by road.

It seems fairly uncommon to me to have a border not exactly at the summit, but a few hundred meters away.


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## alserrod

In the Aragonese-Bearn/Bigorre border, AFAIK all the borders are in the summit with the exemption of Candanchu area.

Somport (after Summus Portus in Latin) pass is the border but there is an area where border doesn't go via summits.

We have best example here, in the cross country ski resort... it is international (mainly in France but you can cross border several times cos part of it is in Spain)

I guess but not sure, stick is the border

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.7843...tvrs4eEgGUNsRZ4-CkWg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


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## ChrisZwolle

VITORIA MAN said:


> the border is where the road pavement changes
> https://goo.gl/maps/Hqqyohgx1R22


That would make sense, as that's where the signs become Spanish / Basque too, but IGN mapping also puts the border south of the summit, similar to Google Maps: http://signa.ign.es/signa/

Here the pass is called _Collado de Piedra de San Martín_.


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## alserrod

That page is a mess...but official one.

About names "de" is a preposition and it is common to be used in Latin languages but not always


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## arctic_carlos

^^ "de" in Spanish usually means "of" or "from".


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## CNGL

A bit of insight on the old local network. Before the 80s, there was a extensive three-layered network maintained by the Ministry of Public Works (today's Fomento), which included national, regional (_comarcal_) and local roads. N and C roads were numbered using the same pattern for both, while local road numbering was a little more complicated: The prefix matched the provincial code for license plates (with Corunna being LC since C was already assigned to regional network, obviously there were no motorways back in the day and as such Alicante went with A, this may explain the prefix mess we have for motorways now), the first digit was a 'zone' indicator like national and regional roads, but since there were so many local roads these zones were bordered by national roads (and sometimes regional roads) and assigned a random number from 1 to 9; the second digit was more or less a sub-zone within a zone, and the third digit was assigned sequentially, so roads with correlative numbers could be found near each other, e.g. HU-330 near HU-331 (the latter now part of A-1227). And if a local road reached a provincial border, it would change the prefix but not the number. The roads maintained by the provinces where then numbered as 'children' of these in the form PC-V-xxxy, where PC is the provincial code and y assigned sequentially, which mostly started at their corresponding PC-xxx but not always (e.g. HU-V-3303 starts at N-240, not HU-330). In that case they were numbered from the closest local road. Also of note is that sometimes two zones starting with the same number would occur in a province, and even correlative roads could be in two different parts, e.g. Z-310 was (and still is) nowhere near Z-311; the first belonging to the Huesca zone 3 enclosed by N-240 (part of it now A-132), N-330 (part of it now A-1205), C-138 (now N-123, A-138, A-2210, again A-138, N-260, A-135 and an unbuilt section) and the French border that caught a bit of Zaragoza province, the second belonging to the Soria-Zaragoza (and a bit of Navarre) zone 3 enclosed by N-II, N-232, N-121 (now N-121-C), N-122 and N-234 (For interest Z-310 is the road from A-132 to Riglos station which becomes HU-310 upon hitting the provincial border; and Z-311 is the Calatorao station road 150 km away).


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-1 Vitoria - Altsasu*

Some photos of A-1 from Vitoria to Altsasu. This is an east-west running portion of A-1 (which generally runs north-south). It is in both Basque Country and Navarra.


A-1-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-12 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-14 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-16 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-18 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-22 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-24 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-26 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-27 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-29 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-31 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-33 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-34 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some photos of A-1 from Vitoria to Altsasu. This is an east-west running portion of A-1 (which generally runs north-south). It is in both Basque Country and Navarra.


At least Alava has taken its time to change N-I to A-1, unlike Guipuscoa...


ChrisZwolle said:


> A-1-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


... but they didn't revert N-102 and N-104 back to N-I.


ChrisZwolle said:


> A-1-22 by European Roads, on Flickr


Notice this sign mixes Basque and Spanish. If it was fully written in Spanish it would say "_Araya_ San Roman", while if it was so in Basque it would say "Araia _Durruma_".

BTW, this municipality has a different name to that of its seat, Asparrena. In such cases I like to attach the municipality name to the seat name, thus Araia becomes Araia (Asparrena).

PS: There are several duplicated roads in Alava and Aragon: A-124, A-126, A-132 and A-2602. I have clinched the Aragonese version of all but the last. There's a A-2604 in Alava but in Aragon that designation is skipped.


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## ChrisZwolle

Some serious damage to A-7 between Carchuna and Castell de Ferro in Granada province. This section opened in 2015, completing the motorway in this region.


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## geogregor

^^
Didn't last very long... hno:

Is it some landslide caused by bad weather?


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## ChrisZwolle

*NA-137 Collado de Piedra de San Martín*

Some photos of Navarra autonomous road NA-137 across the _Collado de Piedra de San Martín_, better known in French as the _Col de la Pierre Saint-Martin_. 


NA-137-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


NA-137-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


NA-137-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


NA-137-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

At the summit, looking southwest into Spain

NA-137-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


NA-137-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

A Basque sign.

NA-137-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

The landscape is quite nice, the trees and rocky terrain reminded me of what I've seen from the Sierra Nevada in California.

NA-137-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


NA-137-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


NA-137-10 by European Roads, on Flickr

The highest point of this range is the 2507 meter high Pic d'Anie. Nearby is also the highest point of Navarra at the Mesa de los Tres Reyes (2428 m).

NA-137-11 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Metred

CNGL said:


> Notice this sign mixes Basque and Spanish. If it was fully written in Spanish it would say "_Araya_ San Roman", while if it was so in Basque it would say "Araia _Durruma_".
> 
> BTW, this municipality has a different name to that of its seat, Asparrena. In such cases I like to attach the municipality name to the seat name, thus Araia becomes Araia (Asparrena).


This is not uncommon in Alava and I believe this is due to some minor entities (such as Araia, which belongs to the municipality of Asparrena as you mentioned) having a more established name in Spanish. Most Basque municipalities (with very few exceptions) have adopted either a Basque only or Basque-Spanish mixed name officially. Up until the 1980s all names were in Spanish, but in areas where Basque is more prominent (Bizkaia and Gipuzkoa), most people still knew and used the Basque place names. 

However in many places in Alava, especially where Basque had been gone for a longer time, people know certain towns and villages with very specific names, usually in Spanish. So someone might realise that Araia and Araya are the same place, but the distinction might be more difficult in the case of San Román (Durruma) or the neighbouring San Millán (Donemiliaga). 

The ideal thing would be to use both names (given that both are official), but perhaps they decided to be more practical and just give one town the Basque name (more recognisable) and the other one the Spanish one.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-11*

A 71.4 km section of future A-11 motorway between Zamora and the Portuguese border has been put to public information for the purposes of environmental assessment. It will have an estimated cost of €328M (€4.5M/km).










http://www.fomento.es/MFOMBPrensa/N...ectos-de/a4cad068-435b-45f9-aff4-8189006b0ce6

Once completed, it will connect with Portuguese A4, becoming thus the 6th motorway connection between Spain and Portugal (the 5th one, Spanish A-62 with Portuguese A25, will be ready next year). 

I guess only the Dutch - German border has more motorway border crossings.


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## verreme

^^ I've never driven this stretch and I know it's the fastest route between Madrid and Porto, but is this motorway really necessary?


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## ChrisZwolle

It will be the quickest route from Northern Portugal to Catalonia. 

However the traffic volumes are very low, only 2,000 - 2,500 vehicles per day on most of the route, increasing to 4,200 vehicles just west of Zamora. 

On the other hand, the pricetag is very low. In many countries you don't even get a decent two-lane road for that kind of money. We have an upcoming road project in the Netherlands that cost that much money _per kilometer_...


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## verreme

^^ The price is low, but the existing road is okay. It's a typical Spanish 100 km/h road (2 lanes with hard shoulders). There are even bypasses with grade-separated junctions. And traffic will not increase to reasonable volumes just because there's a motorway. With 2.000 vehicles per day not even road safety is a concern. Okay, the Portuguese have finished their part of the motorway, but we all know it was built because their economy was booming and they had too much money.

Spain has many other road projects already U/C that are stopped or being built at a very slow pace because of the lack of funds. There are a handful of them in my area and dozens in the whole of Spain. I'd like to see them finished instead of pouring money into these motorways in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## MichiH

^^^^ I think that the current AADT is not relevant but the future AADT once A11 will be completed all the way to Catalunya...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Portugese A4 made more sense than A-11. In Portugal, the older roads are narrow, curvy and the terrain is mountainous. A motorway like A4 offers much more safety and shorter travel times than A-11 would in Spain. 

Bypasses at Alcañices and Fonfría could also do the job... I agree that money would be better spent on other projects, such as A-11 between Soria and Valladolid. Traffic volumes are also low in Soria province, but A-11 would increase connectivity for traffic within Spain (combined with A-15 and the Tarazona shortcut to A-68).


----------



## verreme

MichiH said:


> ^^^^ I think that the current AADT is not relevant but the future AADT once A11 will be completed all the way to Catalunya...


There's no way AADT could increase to reasonable volumes (10.000 vpd) just because there's a motorway. And I don't think there's that much traffic between Catalunya and Porto. I mean, Ryanair will get you there for €30. There's no point on doing 1.000+ kilometers by car.

I also think that Spain should start planning to widen the existing toll roads, because when the concessions expire (many of them will do so in the near future) they won't be able to cope with the traffic. AP-7 between Tarragona and Valencia and between Valencia and Alicante will be very congested in summer weekends and there are no plans to add more lanes.

In some cases congestion will be unbearable. I honestly fear the day C-32 becomes toll-free. Its busiest stretch carries almost 100k vehicles per day -and parallel N-II has 60k. Combined, this will be hell on earth, not only because of congestion on the motorway itself, but also because it has very few junctions and local roads leading to them will have serious problems to handle traffic (evening rush hour is already a mess in Alella toll gate, for example). And Generalitat de Catalunya wants to downgrade N-II and turn it into an "urban boulevard" to divert traffic from it. Which is in my opinion a mistake, because the coastline is heavily built-up and thus in need of a decent, fast road with no roundabouts every 100 meters. If the proposed "Ronda del Maresme" (a dual-carriageway road with at-grade junctions next to C-32) had not been ditched, this would be a bit less of a problem.


----------



## alserrod

I guess not only from Barcelona/Zaragoza but from somewhere in France too. It would be another "gate" to enter into Portugal


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ It would be interesting to know how much of the traffic on N-II between Montgat and Malgrat de Mar is local and how much of it is long-distance traffic.

While the former should be rerouted to C-32 to eliminate traffic on the coastal road, the latter should use AP-7 or, in the future, B-40. IIRC, the southern tip of A-2 near Vidreres is to be connected with B-40 near Granollers thanks to a new toll-free motorway (A-7?).

In any event, the current situation of N-II along the coast is not satisfactory neither for drivers nor for the residents of the coastal towns.


----------



## rpc08

verreme said:


> Okay, the Portuguese have finished their part of the motorway, but we all know it was built because their economy was booming and they had too much money.


No, we built it to serve Bragança (urban pop. 22 000 and the most isolated provincial capital in Portugal) a decent connection with the rest of the country. The other 15 km from Bragança to the border were made just because A-11 was planned on the other side of the border. Perfectly unnecessary, since Bragança-Quintanilha carries only 1900 vehicles per day presently. But let's not forget, once A-11 is completed it will be the fastest connection between the north of Portugal and France, substituting the current alternative via Chaves and León. It's probably not worth building 71+15 km of motorway for that, but at least it's something.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*GI-632 Autovía de Deskarga*

Construction has resumed on GI-632, also known as the Autovía de Deskarga. The 5 kilometer segment from Antzuola to Bergara will be completed in March 2019.

http://www.diariovasco.com/gipuzkoa/201702/28/arrancan-obras-tramo-antzuola-20170228130904.html

September 2016 photo:

GI-632-21 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through Castilla y León (Spain) from Valladolid to Salamanca 11.12.2016 Timelapse x4


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Z-40 Zaragoza*

Some photos of Z-40 around the large city of Zaragoza. Z-40 forms a full loop around Zaragoza, the northern and western part is also numbered A-2 (I'm guessing it's primarily considered to be A-2 as it is much older than the rest of Z-40). The eastern part runs concurrent with A-23 but is primarily signed as Z-40. The southern segment is the shortest and is only signed as Z-40.

The southern part opened in 2003, the eastern part in 2008.


1. 

Z-40 Zaragoza-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

Z-40 Zaragoza-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

Z-40 Zaragoza-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. The A-23 interchange. I was surprised they did not sign Valencia as it is much more important than Teruel and near the terminus of A-23.

Z-40 Zaragoza-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. I did not expect to see Castellón here either, it is signed via A-68 and N-232 and is quite far away, in fact I wonder if A-23 & A-7 isn't a quicker route.

Z-40 Zaragoza-9 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. Puerto Venecia

Z-40 Zaragoza-10 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. Z-30 is the third ring road of Zaragoza, it is an urban arterial.

Z-40 Zaragoza-13 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. The A-68 interchange. Traffic to and from A-68 uses a roundabout.

Z-40 Zaragoza-17 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. The bridge across the Ebro River.

Z-40 Zaragoza-18 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. N-II

Z-40 Zaragoza-20 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. 

Z-40 Zaragoza-23 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. The A-2 interchange. From here, it is only signed as A-23.

Z-40 Zaragoza-24 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## alserrod

It is a big messy-blessy

Northbound was always A-2... since 1980ish or so... It is being changed to Z-40 and currently people use more Z-40, but still you will hear both names (and signs of E-90, of course)

A-23 started in another point in the northbound and was restricted to 80 at the begining. With the final ring they changed. But the Zaragoza ring was always set as Z-40 in that part.

A-2 ==> A-68 has lights that.... never have been turned on!!!!!. A-68 ==> A-2 has lights on night, thus driving there will cause you passing from a lighted area to darkness whilst night.


About signs... Barcelona and Madrid are exemptions... they point almost always next province capital and A-23 next one is Teruel (in the region is very well-known and people know destinations after that city, even if it is the smallest capital in Spain)

Castellon has really no sense to be pointed via A-68. It is faster via A-23 (and a few more km. only)... they should sign Alcañiz/Vinaroz (or even... Tarragona too!!).

If you come from the northbound they will point A-68 Alcañiz/Castellon trhough ARA-A-1. It is well played. They changed signs and they "invite" you to take A-68 only for local destinations. Far away, keep in the A-2 and later ARA-A-1


If you go to Huesca, you can find the exit to nowhere. I really do not know why the hell they built this exit

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.6946792,-0.8358112,1136m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es


From the begining. two additional exists have being created in the Z-40:

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.6087172,-0.8794784,1123m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es

and

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.620256,-0.9633854,1121m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es


The interchange Z-40-A-2 is so really messy that I am surprised no accidents have had place there.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-33*



MichiH said:


> *A33:* Jumilla – Yecla 23.4km (December 2014 to 2018) – ? – map


Works are really advanced on this section. :banana:

The video has both Spanish and English subtitles.



bencenico71 said:


> Vídeo del estado del tramo entre Jumilla y Yecla de la A-33, grabado el pasado mes de Diciembre de 2016:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Se puede apreciar en el mismo, que el tramo entre ambas localidades avanza a muy buen ritmo, incluso es posible que se termine antes de lo previsto, que era en 2018.
> 
> El problema que yo veo, una vez se termine este tramo, es el importante cuello de botella que se va a producir en la carretera de Pinoso, ya que el tramo que continuaría a éste, el de Yecla a Caudete, no está siquiera licitado, y va a pasar tiempo hasta que se pueda terminar. Eso provocará que los vehículos tendrán que abandonar la N-344, circular por una carretera como la RM-424 (antigua C-3223) y a través de una rotonda, incorporarse a la A-33.
> 
> En este mapa se puede ver muy bien a lo que me refiero:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El punto clave es la línea azul discontinua, en la unión con la C-3223. Y por cierto, el ahorro de km entre el cruce de la A-31 con A-33 hasta el comienzo de la A-33 actualmente en Jumilla, comparada con la N-344, es considerable.
> 
> Esperemos que pronto se pueda licitar el tramo entre Yecla y Caudete, y al menos se pueda viajar entre la A-31 y la A-33 hasta Murcia por autovía, ya que parece que no llevan mucha prisa por acabar el tramo de Fuente La Higuera, mientras sigue habiendo más muertes por accidentes de tráfico... A algunos se les debería caer la cara de vergüenza, pero como no la tienen....
> 
> Mas info: aquí
> 
> PD: Corregido enlace de youtube, ahora sí se ve perfectamente


Sadly the other section of A-33 under construction, between A-31 and A-35, is only advancing very slowly, although a possible opening next summer has been announced in some local newspapers. 

Meanwhile, there have been several deadly car crashes in the old national road, so people are logically fed up with the situation (works started in 2008!).

And to make matters worse, construction works on the middle section (Yecla - A-31) haven't been tendered yet, so it's very likely that it will become a major bottleneck once its two neighboring sections open in the short term, given A-33 will be the shortest route between Valencia and Murcia.


----------



## CNGL

About bottlenecks at the end of a motorway, this is _all_ of what exists of A-23 East of Sabiñanigo at the end of a weekend. The section is between two that are yet to start construction, and the jam happened a couple weeks ago. Photo is from regional newspaper Heraldo de Aragon.











ChrisZwolle said:


> Some photos of Z-40 around the large city of Zaragoza. Z-40 forms a full loop around Zaragoza, the northern and western part is also numbered A-2 (I'm guessing it's primarily considered to be A-2 as it is much older than the rest of Z-40). The eastern part runs concurrent with A-23 but is primarily signed as Z-40. The southern segment is the shortest and is only signed as Z-40.
> 
> The southern part opened in 2003, the eastern part in 2008.


Yawn.

(I drove all of this once again in mid February)

The Northern section indeed uses A-2's kmposts and exit numbers (as those where in place long before Z-40 was even planned), but is primarily signed as Z-40.


ChrisZwolle said:


> 4. The A-23 interchange. I was surprised they did not sign Valencia as it is much more important than Teruel and near the terminus of A-23.


That is surprising to an outsider, especially considering Zaragoza is signed all the way from A-23's start in Murviedro (Sagunto), and Teruel doesn't exist anyway.

(Yes, Teruel is our own Bielefeld :lol


ChrisZwolle said:


> 5. I did not expect to see Castellón here either, it is signed via A-68 and N-232 and is quite far away, in fact I wonder if A-23 & A-7 isn't a quicker route.


Indeed, is faster to go to Castellon via A-23 and N-225. In fact VMSs once advised to take this route (But that was around the Moto Grand Prix of Aragon).


ChrisZwolle said:


> 12. The A-2 interchange. From here, it is only signed as A-23.


I see you were headed to my hometown . This part of A-23 is newer than the rest of it to Huesca (which was built in the late 90s as N-330). In fact, when the motorway was renumbered A-23 it used what is now N-330 into Zaragoza, which has a few intersections due to a military base. They even built a huge roundabout in the middle of it which created traffic jams. Eventually they tunelled the road under the roundabout, but at the same time they built a bypass to this section. As a result it reverted to N-330, while A-23 North was changed from N-330's kmposts and exit numbers to the current ones.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*FV-2, Fuerteventura*

This week good news finally arrived from the island of Fuerteventura, Canary Islands:



MichiH said:


> *FV2:* Costa Calma – south of Costa Calma 2.5km (? to Early 2017?) – ? – map


March 2017.



MichiH said:


> *FV2:* south of Costa Calma – north of El Salmo 4.4km (? to ?) – ? – map


Late 2017.

Source:

http://www.noticiasfuerteventura.co...o-un-nuevo-tramo-de-la-autovia-de-costa-calma

http://www.rtvc.es/noticias/obras-p...erteventura-este-ano-161704.aspx#.WLxg5js19PY


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## geogregor

TF-1 on the island of Tenerife:

P3020281 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020282 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020292 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020293 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020294 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020296 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020297 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020298 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

P3020299 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020300 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020301 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020302 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020303 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020304 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020305 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020306 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


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## alserrod

weird to see "santa cruz" only. 
Official name is "Santa Cruz de Tenerife" and canaries are proud of their names (once, a SSC banner was critiziced because full name of a canary city wasn't correct, only half of it).

I remember to see "Pto. Rosario" for Puerto del Rosario and for instance, the another capital is "Las Palmas de Gran Canaria" (Las Palmas is only the province name)


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## Suburbanist

Is fuel very expensive in the islands, or not really (since they are close to major oil producers)?


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## ChrisZwolle

Fuel is much cheaper in the Canary Islands than the rest of Spain (in turn, the rest of Spain is cheaper than most of Western Europe). Prices are under € 1 per liter according to El País


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## alserrod

Yeah... but I have chosen randomly one petrol station near a relative house and it is only 10 cts cheaper.

Regions are entitled to have about 5-6 cts for taxes. Canary took them several years ago. I remember being in Catalonia, returning to Aragon and noticed fuel was cheaper. Later going to Canary islands and, due to those regional taxes... it was cheaper too, but not so cheaper


BTW... Ceuta and Melilla fuel prices are lower too.


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## CNGL

Nice to see some Canary Islands scenery, I had to set the clock one hour back. National radio stations always say "It's <insert current time here>, one hour less in the Canary Islands", and I like to mock-up with things like "It's noon, midnight in the Canary Islands".

Back in the peninsula (as we call the mainland), works on several sections of A-23 continue. The tunnel on the Isuela gorge-Arguis section is almost completely dug (only 20 meters to go). Much like the two already existing sections, when this one, the long tunnel on the Monrepos summit-Caldearenas section and the connection back to the existing road (on the Caldearenas-Lanave section) are ready traffic will be routed in the new roads while the existing ones are renovated. This include restoring the old C-136 to serve as service road.


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## Suburbanist

Are there any restrictions, of special provisions, for drivers of EU-plated cars wanting to take them to Ceuta or Melilla?


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Are there any restrictions, of special provisions, for drivers of EU-plated cars wanting to take them to Ceuta or Melilla?


No, there aren't. They have standard Spanish plates: four numbers, three letters.

Till year 2000 they had the province code: CE for Ceuta and ML for Melilla, but nothing far away.

In addition, cars in Ceuta, Melilla and Canary islands are cheaper than in mainland (and Balearic islands).
Should any citizen move to mainland, they will have to pay extra taxes when car register in files. They will calculate current car price (providing type of car, years and so on) and official taxes to be payed


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## alserrod

Little off-topic

Till year 2000 all provinces had their code in the plates.
One or two letters. M for Madrid, MA for Malaga, ML for Melilla, MU for Murcia and so on.

Some of them changed: OR (Orense) changed to OU (Ourense). GE (Gerona) changed to GI (Girona), PM (Palma de Mallorca) changed to IB (Islas Baleares) they took city name and changed to region name. By the way, currently city is just "Palma" (not "de Mallorca" any more)

There are more special names

CME is for Catalan police
E is for Basque police, but a special type of letter 
MMA is for environment ministery
ET is for country army
EA is for air army
FN is for navy army
CNP: (cuerpo nacional de policía) is for national police. They have had several names in plates
PGC (patrulla de la guardia civil) is for civil guard troops


and some historical names:

SH was for Sahara desert province
IF was for Ifni corner, both of them nowadays in Morocco

FP was for Fernando Póo province (the part of Equatorial Guinea where Malabo is, in the main island) https://www.google.es/maps/@3.4722161,9.0606179,97188m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es

RM was for Río Muni (Muni River), the part of Equatorial Guinea in Africa mainland
https://www.google.es/maps/place/Co...6c35493d47c!8m2!3d1.0875812!4d9.7036743?hl=es


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## geogregor

Suburbanist said:


> Is fuel very expensive in the islands, or not really (since they are close to major oil producers)?


As Chris said fuel is cheaper than in the mainland. I was positively surprised as I was worry that it will be other way around (the whole trip was organised in 4 days so I didn't have much time to do any proper research )
I paid less than 1 Euro per litre. 

BTW, here is one gas station :lol:

P3020291 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Entering Santa Cruz again, later in the day:

P3020448 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020449 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3020450 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

TF-1 on the way from Los Gigantes in the north west corner of the island towards the airport:

P3030575 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3030576 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3030578 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3030579 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

P3030580 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3030581 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3030582 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3030583 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3030584 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3030586 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

There are also some 2+1 stretches:

P3030573 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3030574 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Boltzman

Suburbanist said:


> Is fuel very expensive in the islands, or not really (since they are close to major oil producers)?





ChrisZwolle said:


> Fuel is much cheaper in the Canary Islands than the rest of Spain (in turn, the rest of Spain is cheaper than most of Western Europe). Prices are under € 1 per liter according to El País





alserrod said:


> Yeah... but I have chosen randomly one petrol station near a relative house and it is only 10 cts cheaper.
> 
> Regions are entitled to have about 5-6 cts for taxes. Canary took them several years ago. [...]
> 
> BTW... Ceuta and Melilla fuel prices are lower too.


The reason fuel is cheaper in the Canary Islands compared to mainland Spain is not exactly regional taxes, but the fact that the Islands are out of the VAT area. This means way less taxes. This already happened in Francoist Spain, so when Spain accedded the EU special provisions were made for the Canary Islands, Ceuta and Melilla. There is however a VAT-like tax (called IGIC) which is notably lower (7%) than its mainland Spain counterpart (21%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union



Suburbanist said:


> Are there any restrictions, of special provisions, for drivers of EU-plated cars wanting to take them to Ceuta or Melilla?


 In general no, unless you move to the Islands. As I said above, they lay outside the EU-VAT area, so while still Spain, you should import your car at customs, even though the car may already hold a Spanish plate (yes, there are customs controls between the Islands and mainland Spain).

Edit: However, the Islands are inside the EU customs area. These special provisions are possible due to the Canary Islands being an EU-Outermost Region.

Edit: Ditto in the case of Ceuta and Melilla - they are out of the EU VAT Area as well as the EU customs area. However, there is free of movement for the whole national territory. If you move there, your car must go through an import procedure at customs. Then you and your car can enjoy the half-price tickets whenever you travel to mainland Spain.


----------



## geogregor

TF-21 in Teide National Park:

P2280041 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P2280044 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3010144 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3010183 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3010235 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3010236 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P3010273 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

TF-21 heading down:

P3010278 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## verreme

^^ I hope it's never built. When toll collection ends in AP-7, which is set to happen in 2021 IIRC, a parallel motorway would be useless.

They should widen AP-7 to 2x3 instead, because when it becomes toll-free it will be crowded. In fact, most of AP-7 will need one more lane when this happens. I hope we'll see more 2x3, 2x4 and even 2x5 sections along this axis.


----------



## sponge_bob

verreme said:


> ^^ I hope it's never built. When toll collection ends in AP-7, which is set to happen in 2021 IIRC, a parallel motorway would be useless.


I do not agree, Valencia is set to become Europes 4th biggest container port fairly soon at the rate it has grown in the last 10 years, going from 8th in 2007 to 5th in 2015 and is the biggest one in the Med nowadays.


----------



## Aranou

^^Including Tanger Med?


----------



## alserrod

Aranou said:


> ^^Including Tanger Med?


Well... it is matter of issue in Spain but.... with the same quotes, Tanger Med IS NOT in the Mediterranean but in the Atlantic (as well as Cadiz harbour is not considered as a Mediterranean harbour but an Atlantic one)

Nevertheless, the point is to make ships with destination wherever in Mediterranean to take part of goods off and keep direct to destination.
Those goods can be transported by train or truck (specially if within Spain). 
Ship companies will prefer to make only one call to make full trip faster and... as far as I know, should they call at Tanger Med, they will have not easy to move freight within Europe by train or truck


----------



## verreme

sponge_bob said:


> I do not agree, Valencia is set to become Europes 4th biggest container port fairly soon at the rate it has grown in the last 10 years, going from 8th in 2007 to 5th in 2015 and is the biggest one in the Med nowadays.


This may justify another motorway by 2030 or 2040, but today truck traffic on the three axis along the Mediterranean coast in Castellón province (AP-7, N-340 and CV-10) does not justify two motorways. On the other hand, car traffic on AP-7 is already high on summer weekends, and once the motorway becomes toll-free it will be just unbearable. A widening to 2x3 is all this region needs in the next 20-30 years.


----------



## sponge_bob

Yes Verreme but at least one of those roads will need a highly disruptive rebuild before then. You need redundancy in the system and 2 2x2 motorways is better than 1 2x3. You can reroute onto it when doing the rebuild.

Don't forget there is a lot of 1970s and 1980s motorway between Valencia and Barcelona and it won't last forever, especially if Artics hammer it solidly 24/7. This is now a major European logistics corridor.

I don't think you have the same HGV traffic south of Valencia/Alicante and the roads will last much longer down there as a consequence.


----------



## verreme

^^ It's actually the other way round. AP-7 south of Valencia is crowded in summer, even with tolls. There's a high concentration of summer resort towns within that strip of coast -something that doesn't happen north of Valencia. Widening this motorway, or finishing A-38, should be considered even before tolls cease to be collected.

As for a widening being disruptive, when AP-7 was widened to 2x3 between La Jonquera and Tarragona it was no big deal, and we're talking about a (much) busier motorway. Speed was limited to 80 km/h, and 2x2 capacity was kept during the full construction period. And it was not just a widening -many junctions were rebuilt, too. Between L'Hospitalet de l'Infant (current end of the third lane) and Sagunt, traffic is much lighter, and no junctions would need to be rebuilt. More such widenings have been performed in the Spanish road network without any need to close roads or reroute traffic.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-27*



MichiH said:


> *A27:* Montblanc-East – Valls-North 7.3km (2008 to 2020) – project – map


6 months after the Minister of Public Works officially announced it, construction has finally resumed on A-27 between Valls and Montblanc. The section includes a 1,5km tunnel under the Lilla mountain pass.










Source: http://www.lavanguardia.com/local/t...man-celeridad-obras-tunel-coll-illa-a-27.html


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## alserrod

in google we can see way on till entry of tunnel works


----------



## arctic_carlos

verreme said:


> As for a widening being disruptive, when AP-7 was widened to 2x3 between La Jonquera and Tarragona it was no big deal, and we're talking about a (much) busier motorway. Speed was limited to 80 km/h, and 2x2 capacity was kept during the full construction period. And it was not just a widening -many junctions were rebuilt, too. Between L'Hospitalet de l'Infant (current end of the third lane) and Sagunt, traffic is much lighter, and no junctions would need to be rebuilt. More such widenings have been performed in the Spanish road network without any need to close roads or reroute traffic.


The third lane of AP-7 ends in exit 35 (Salou); Salou - L'Hospitalet de l'Infant is 2x2. However, between La Móra and L'Hospitalet de l'Infant we must take into account that A-7 carries a great amount of traffic, which in the end means a combined capacity (A-7 + AP-7) of 2x4 between L'Hospitalet de l'Infant and Salou and of 2x5 between Salou and La Móra.

Once they extend A-7 to Torredembarra we will really see both motorways as part of the same trunk route, especially if they build proper interchanges between them in Torredembarra and south of L'Hospitalet de l'Infant. Hence, I don't think AP-7 should be widened to 2x3 between Salou and L'Hospitalet de l'Infant, but just between L'Hospitalet de l'Infant and Sagunt, shelving the project of building a parallel A-7 between L'Hospitalet de l'Infant and Vilanova d'Alcolea.


----------



## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> in google we can see way on till entry of tunnel works


Google Maps aerial footage is pretty recent, from March 2017, but it shows the works exactly in the same condition they were in 2010, when the works were suspended, without a single machine working on them. They just resumed the works very recently.


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## CNGL

Today I've found something I thought it didn't exist in Spain: An expressway . There's a section of N-II that bypasses the Zaragoza neighborhood of Santa Isabel to the South that is built to motorway standards, complete with a 120 km/h speed limit. The only thing that makes me not to classify it as a motorway is the lack of blue signage along it, thus I consider it an expressway instead as _autovia_ signs are present anyway.


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## alserrod

and you can fin a two followed traffic signals in six languages in that road.


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## Reivajar

CNGL said:


> Today I've found something I thought it didn't exist in Spain: An expressway . There's a section of N-II that bypasses the Zaragoza neighborhood of Santa Isabel to the South that is built to motorway standards, complete with a 120 km/h speed limit. The only thing that makes me not to classify it as a motorway is the lack of blue signage along it, thus I consider it an expressway instead as _autovia_ signs is present anyway.


I would say there are some additional cases of this kind of separated highway without the consideration of _autopista _or _autovía_. It comes to my mind the section of the M-506 between the A-4 and San Martin de la Vega, South of Madrid. Actually, the whole M-506 would be this kind of separated highway except in the proximity of the A-42. 

Other cases of separated highways with white signs are found in Seville. For example, the new expressway La Rinconada - Seville is as well signed in white, although I think it has _Autovía _signs in the ramps.


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## verreme

^^ On N-II in Zaragoza there are "start of _autovía_" and "end of _autovía_" signs (only in the eastern terminus since the roundabout in the other end does only lead to Z-40, which is another _autovía_). Other signage is white. I'm not sure whether this is a mistake or not since the only destinations signed are all reachead via _carreteras convencionales_ and thus not required to be signed in blue. So it's definitely an _autovía_.

In other parts of Spain there are roads built to _autovía_ standards but that don't have any _autovía_ signs. Apart from M-506 in Madrid, N-636 in the Basque Country is another example. Also C-42 near Tortosa or the recently completed Ma-30 in Mallorca.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Or C-31 between Barcelona Airport and Castelldefels. Although there are still some non-controlled accesses there.


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## CNGL

With all the _autovía_ mess, I developed my own road classification. It is based on the signage coloring, and wether is fully grade separated or not. If it has blue signage and has full access control, it's a motorway (in Spanish I refer to those as _autopista_ even if they don't have the chopsticks sign). If it fails to meet one of those two criteria, i.e. if it has white signage or some at-grade intersections, it's an expressway (a truly _autovía_). If it fails both criteria, it may be 4 lane dual carriageway, but it's still a regular road for me (for example N-330 North of Zaragoza). In addition, any two lane undivided road with full access control also qualifies for expressway status, like N-320 Southeast of Guadalajara (bonus points if they have the motorroad sign, i.e. _vía para automóviles_ which conveys the same idea as _autovía_ for me).


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## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> This is also N-260, in Gerri de la Sal (it is not a one-way street). There was alternating traffic, but even without the roadworks it's very narrow.
> 
> 
> N-260 Gerri de la Sal by European Roads, on Flickr


This project has been completed:


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## arctic_carlos

^^ This project was chosen to save funds instead of a planned bypass tunnel behind the houses of the picture (whose works had already started back in 2010), which would have completely eliminated the bottleneck. Now that section of the road is wider, but there's still a narrow section left with buildings on both sides of the road.

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.3235...20.358131&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


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## verreme

^^ AFAIK they even expropriated the houses and kicked out the people that lived there. Now there's a bunch of empty houses and a road that will never be built. And the bottleneck is still there. There's a word in Spanish for this: _chapuza_ (bodgery).


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## ChrisZwolle

Many toll roads in the northeast were built during the 1970s and may be up for a major overhaul post-2020. I think that's something to keep in mind when awarding a new concession or taking them over by the state. Pavement quality of Spanish toll roads is also of a bit lower standard than typically found in France or Italy. To be sure - it's not bad pavement, but not of the same quality you'll get for paying tolls in France or Italy.

Are there plans to expand the short border segment of AP-7 near La Jonquera? The French are now expanding A9 all the way to the border crossing, leaving just a small Spanish stretch of four lanes between Remoulins and Vila-Seca (a 507 kilometer long stretch).


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## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> It is quite strategic for Spain due to there are two ski resorts there...
> 
> As said, it is the lowest mountain pass in Central Pyrenees. *Atila* crossed there with elephants against Rome and St.James lane goes there too.
> In addition, in the middle age it was said that three main hospitals received pilgrims to main destinations: Jesusalem hospital, another near St. Gotard for going Rome and Sta.Cristina, quite near Candanchu for going St.James. It doesn't exist any more and we only know where it was.
> 
> 
> Language issues: Candanchu comes from French: Camp d'Anjou
> Somport (same word in French and Spanish) comes from Latin: Summus Portus. (Maximal Mountain Pass)


Weren't you perhaps thinking about the Carthaginian general Hannibal (Aníbal in Spanish)?

Attila the Hun didn't reach as far as the Pyrenees and AFAIK he had no elephants with him. And well, he lived 700 years later. :lol:


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## alserrod

you're right


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## adevahi

Suburbanist said:


> Is it a given that tolls will be removed from all Autopistas whose contracts are going to expire in the early 2020s? Or could they be tendered as concessions, new ones, with cheaper tolls likely and/or additional expansion packages?


We can't be sure about this until the day of expires of the contract reaches, but it is highly possible that AP-4 Sevilla-Cádiz (Dos Hermanas-Jerez) will become a non tolled highway by this date.


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## alserrod

Has been already built new exit after Dos Hermanas?


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## adevahi

I don't know any project for new exits after Dos Hermanas, but probably in 2018 or maybe in 2019 it will be opened the new section of SE-40, which will have interchanges with both Dos Hermanas and A-4 in a non-tolled section.

The works that will start soon will be for making turning N-IV in a 2+2 highway with 2 separated roads, instead of a national road. So in some years there will probably be two free highways parallel from Sevilla to Los Palacios, 20/25km approximately.


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## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> Is it a given that tolls will be removed from all Autopistas whose contracts are going to expire in the early 2020s? Or could they be tendered as concessions, new ones, with cheaper tolls likely and/or additional expansion packages?





ChrisZwolle said:


> Many toll roads in the northeast were built during the 1970s and may be up for a major overhaul post-2020. I think that's something to keep in mind when awarding a new concession or taking them over by the state. Pavement quality of Spanish toll roads is also of a bit lower standard than typically found in France or Italy. To be sure - it's not bad pavement, but not of the same quality you'll get for paying tolls in France or Italy.


The concession that's closest to its expiration date is the one of AP-1 Miranda de Ebro-Burgos (2018). As of today, Fomento has yet to decide what solution will be chosen to manage the motorway (source). It looks that all of them (tolling it under public management, a cheaper toll based on licence plate recognition or a total toll-free operation) are open.

This decision will likely be adopted in other motorways with concessions that expire in the 2020s, such as AP-7 between La Jonquera and Alicante. However, as usual in Spain, regional toll roads are a different case. In the Basque Country, regional governments (_Diputaciones provinciales_) took over the toll motorways, and they are now run by Bidegi (in Gipuzkoa), Interbiak (in Bizkaia) and Arabat (in Álava). In Catalonia, *there's a proposal to implement a vignette system* to replace tolls in regional motorways (C-32, C-33, C-16), as well in state-owned ones in 2019(source), though it's unclear if this will become a reality in the current political climate (but *please* I would not want to discuss Catalan-Spanish relations in this topic).

It's obvious that some toll roads are not in perfect condition, however this is partly due to toll concessionaires not making enough money. Traffic in some roads such as AP-1 or AP-7 L'Hospitalet de l'Infant-Sagunt is sometimes too low to pay a full overhaul. Toll roads that carry higher traffic volumes, such as AP-7 La Jonquera-L'Hospitalet de l'Infant or C-32 Alella-Tordera are usually in very good condition.

Another (very different) case are flopped toll roads such as Alicante bypass or Madrid's _radiales_. At this moment, the Government has yet to come with a solution for them, which will likely involved throwing more money into the banks that sponsored their construction, and which were already bailed with taxpayers' money a few years ago.


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## arctic_carlos

adevahi said:


> The works that will start soon will be for making turning N-IV in a 2+2 highway with 2 separated roads, instead of a national road. So in some years there will probably be two free highways parallel from Sevilla to Los Palacios, 20/25km approximately.


Works to upgrade N-IV to motorway standards between Dos Hermanas and Los Palacios y Villafranca (8.4 km) started last year. Construction activity is clearly visible in updated aerial footage from www.terraserver.com, for instance. It should open next year.

I wonder whether they'll keep the old name (N-IV) or switch to A-4 for this newly built section. It would make sense to change to A-4, but the official press release of the tender just mentioned "doubling of N-IV".


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## Reivajar

arctic_carlos said:


> Works to upgrade N-IV to motorway standards between Dos Hermanas and Los Palacios y Villafranca (8.4 km) started last year. Construction activity is clearly visible in updated aerial footage from www.terraserver.com, for instance. It should open next year.
> 
> I wonder whether they'll keep the old name (N-IV) or switch to A-4 for this newly built section. It would make sense to change to A-4, but the official press release of the tender just mentioned "doubling of N-IV".


I bet it will be renamed as A-4 eventually. The doubt is what is going to happen with those coupled names (A-1/AP-1, A-7/AP-7, A-4/AP-4, and so on) when all those tolled motorways end their concession. :lol:


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## arctic_carlos

Tonight's St. John's Eve, one of the most celebrated festivities of the year in some parts of Spain, especially in Catalonia and Alicante.

As a result, every year traffic conditions are really bad during the afternoon and evening of June 23rd, at least from my experience in Catalonia. Many people leave cities at once after the end of the workday and head to the coast to spend the night there, which results of course in heavy congestion along motorways such as C-32 and AP-7.

Las year I was stuck in one of these epic traffic jams for two hours, just to do a 36 km trip from Barcelona to my hometown, which usually takes no more than 40 minutes. I've just checked Google Maps traffic app and the situation is terrible at the moment throughout all the Barcelona metro area and major roads leading to the coast.

Fortunately, this year I'm spending the evening relaxed at home and I don't have to worry about f*cking traffic. :lol:


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## Boltzman

verreme said:


> In Catalonia, *there's a proposal to implement a vignette system* to replace tolls in regional motorways (C-32, C-33, C-16), as well in state-owned ones in 2019(source), though it's unclear if this will become a reality in the current political climate


According to this press article from April, the regional government suggests a vignette system in Catalonia comprising also the State-owned motorways, but Fomento isn't thrilled much about this idea - however, this proposal wasn't plainly discarded by Fomento. 

There are many options as for now, one of them would be expanding this vignette system Spain-wide; on the opposite side, it has been also suggested that all these State-owned toll motorways should become free. In my opinion, this last option would troll the Catalan regional government a lot, as the only tolled motorways in Catalonia would be regional-owned. According to the article, tolls are a hot topic in the region.


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## Reivajar

The other issue for the vignette system would be if it would apply only for the National Network (Fomento), or as well it will include the regional road networks, which in some cases is actually almost the whole network (Basque Country and Navarra). Would it be feasible to have vignette system just for the National Network, while other highways maintained by the regional governments can be completely for free? Basque provinces and Navarra would agree to join the system? There are many details to be defined in such proposal. If not at the end, Spain would have 17 + 1 vignettes, which wouldn't be surprising considering how it works out many times... : lol:


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## alserrod

adevahi said:


> I don't know any project for new exits after Dos Hermanas, but probably in 2018 or maybe in 2019 it will be opened the new section of SE-40, which will have interchanges with both Dos Hermanas and A-4 in a non-tolled section.
> 
> The works that will start soon will be for making turning N-IV in a 2+2 highway with 2 separated roads, instead of a national road. So in some years there will probably be two free highways parallel from Sevilla to Los Palacios, 20/25km approximately.


I guess it will be there where possible to take AP-4, even if no cost saving due to current tolls


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## ChrisZwolle

*Somport Tunnel*

I've been looking at the Somport Tunnel on the border with France (N-330) in Huesca province.

As a fun fact, it is the longest untolled tunnel in the EU at 8.6 kilometers. It opened to traffic in 2003.

The construction was met with protest on the French side who feared it would open up a big truck transit route through the Pyrenees. However these fears have proven untrue, in fact the whole tunnel construction may have not been necessary considering the extremely low volume of traffic.

There are contradicting traffic count statistics, which may have to do with seasonal influences.

According to DIR Atlantique, the average traffic volume in 2016 was 1243 vehicles per day. But according to Fomento, the average traffic volume in 2015 was only 213 vehicles per day. In 2014, 205 vehicles per day were recorded in the tunnel.

It is possible that the tunnel attracts more traffic in the winter due to the ski resorts on the Spanish side of the tunnel. Maybe the Spanish figures are summer traffic counts and French figures are winter traffic counts or not seasonally adjusted. 

However either way, the amount of traffic through the Somport Tunnel is extremely low, it's questionable if a € 250 million investment was worth its money for only either 200 or 1200 vehicles per day.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ It will have been an unnecessary investment as long as France doesn't improve N134. The construction of the tunnel should have taken place coinciding with a massive upgrade of the road on the French side of the border so the whole scheme would make sense.

IMHO, just by extending A65 from Pau to Oloron-Sainte-Marie, including the eastern bypass of the latter up to N134 (25 km in total), Somport tunnel would become a good alternative for traffic between France and Spain. Especially taken into account that on the Spanish side A-23 will be completed up to Jaca (20 km south of the tunnel) in a few years (by early 2020s if everything goes smoothly).

However, nimbysm in the Vallée d'Aspe seems to be pretty high, so it's not realistic to think about any major upgrades taking place in the short term on French side of the border.


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## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've been looking at the Somport Tunnel on the border with France (N-330) in Huesca province.
> 
> As a fun fact, it is the longest untolled tunnel in the EU at 8.6 kilometers. It opened to traffic in 2003.
> 
> The construction was met with protest on the French side who feared it would open up a big truck transit route through the Pyrenees. However these fears have proven untrue, in fact the whole tunnel construction may have not been necessary considering the extremely low volume of traffic.
> 
> There are contradicting traffic count statistics, which may have to do with seasonal influences.
> 
> According to DIR Atlantique, the average traffic volume in 2016 was 1243 vehicles per day. But according to Fomento, the average traffic volume in 2015 was only 213 vehicles per day. In 2014, 205 vehicles per day were recorded in the tunnel.
> 
> It is possible that the tunnel attracts more traffic in the winter due to the ski resorts on the Spanish side of the tunnel. Maybe the Spanish figures are summer traffic counts and French figures are winter traffic counts or not seasonally adjusted.
> 
> However either way, the amount of traffic through the Somport Tunnel is extremely low, it's questionable if a € 250 million investment was worth its money for only either 200 or 1200 vehicles per day.


I believe the Spanish traffic count is for N-330a (the old road over the pass), not N-330 (the tunnel). But then, I suspect it's an understimate. The bulk of the traffic is in Winter, when the ski resorts are open.


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## ChrisZwolle

Well the map shows two separate counting stations, in the tunnel and at the pass:


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## alserrod

First point to release traffic is Oloron by-pass, secondly "anything" new Pau-Oloron (nice if motorway but even a road with few exits and driving always at 90 will be cool)

After project was signed, French government decided to make a short change just to have, by a couple of metres the exit out of national park. If was French gov. who paid that change.

After 1999 Montblanc disaster, French government deciced to check safety in all long tunnels and improving all under construction. Somport was longest u/c in France and had to be adapted to new requirements. This included one safety exit every 500m instead of 1 km for instance but a lot of measures too.

That was reason it wasn't opened in 2000 or 2001 maybe


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ That sounds plausible. According to Wikisara, the Somport Tunnel was under construction from 1994 to 2003, which is relatively long. The 1999 Mont Blanc Tunnel fire caused significant changes to tunnel safety approach and many projects in development had to be redesigned (for example A507 in Marseille). 

What would help for traffic on French N134 is a straight extension of A65, west of Pau and east of Oloron-Sainte-Marie. This will significantly reduce travel time, the current N134 is a low-standard road in that area, with a lot of development around it and many roundabouts, coupled with high traffic volumes.

South of Oloron, there isn't much traffic at all.


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## ChrisZwolle

*CM-40 Variante Suroeste de Toledo*

I filmed CM-40 around Toledo last week. It is a bypass that opened to traffic in 2010.

Fun fact: while I was driving CM-40, the temperature jumped from 32 to 39°C. It was freaking hot in Spain with most areas 10°C above average. The highest I got was 42°C in Talavera.


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## adevahi

arctic_carlos said:


> Works to upgrade N-IV to motorway standards between Dos Hermanas and Los Palacios y Villafranca (8.4 km) started last year. Construction activity is clearly visible in updated aerial footage from www.terraserver.com, for instance. It should open next year.


I knew that  I don't know why did I wrote that works hadn't started yet.


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've been looking at the Somport Tunnel on the border with France (N-330) in Huesca province.
> 
> As a fun fact, it is the longest untolled tunnel in the EU at 8.6 kilometers. It opened to traffic in 2003.
> 
> The construction was met with protest on the French side who feared it would open up a big truck transit route through the Pyrenees. However these fears have proven untrue, in fact the whole tunnel construction may have not been necessary considering the extremely low volume of traffic.
> 
> There are contradicting traffic count statistics, which may have to do with seasonal influences.
> 
> According to DIR Atlantique, the average traffic volume in 2016 was 1243 vehicles per day. But according to Fomento, the average traffic volume in 2015 was only 213 vehicles per day. In 2014, 205 vehicles per day were recorded in the tunnel.
> 
> It is possible that the tunnel attracts more traffic in the winter due to the ski resorts on the Spanish side of the tunnel. Maybe the Spanish figures are summer traffic counts and French figures are winter traffic counts or not seasonally adjusted.
> 
> However either way, the amount of traffic through the Somport Tunnel is extremely low, it's questionable if a € 250 million investment was worth its money for only either 200 or 1200 vehicles per day.


According to the Observatorio de Tráfico en los Pirineos, the AADT for light vehicles was 739 vpd in 2014. Even the Bielsa-Aragnouet tunnel, or the Pourtalet pass have higher volumes, despite the fact that they aren't national roads:


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## ChrisZwolle

*AV-20 Ávila*

A-51 has been renumbered to AV-20, evidently it has been done in the last year, since 2016 Street View still has A-51. They also changed the exit numbering. 

AV-20 is a 10 kilometer autovía around the city of Ávila, it is an extension of AP-51. 

Perhaps this renumbering is an indication that the originally planned A-51 from Soria to Plasencia (N-110 replacement) will never materialize...


AV-20-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


AV-20-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


AV-20-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


AV-20-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


AV-20-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


AV-20-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Highway89

A similar case is the 5-km long A-13 in Logroño, which was planned to be a 100-km long motorway to Soria, following the current N-111. It was a very unrealistic plan. Traffic figures don't justify it and it'd be an environmental disaster. It should be renumbered to LO-11.


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## CNGL

AFAIK A-51 was never planned, only AP-51. And Fomento originally intended A-13 to be a Pamplona-Logroño motorway, but Navarre chose to extend A-12 instead (and they also didn't connect it to A-13, instead ending its section downstream).

Another thing are the now unrelated A-41 and AP-41. The former, which runs from Ciudad Real to Puertollano, was originally intended to be a toll-free section of the latter, which was planned to run from Arroyomolinos (SW of Madrid) all the way to Montoro (E of Cordoba) as an alternate to A-4. But then the section South of Toledo was cancelled due to a negative EIA, leaving two totally unrelated motorways with the same number. Personally I'd change A-41 to A-43 (since the Western section of the latter is planned to run along EX-104 and through Almaden instead of along N-430) and demolish AP-41 altogether D), even if that leaves this country with no motorways with my favorite number. The cancellation also severely delayed a sorely needed section of A-40, the missing link between Toledo and Ocaña, which was to run concurrent with AP-41 across the Tagus river. N-400 carries a large amount of traffic, I don't remember the exact figure now.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ That sounds plausible. According to Wikisara, the Somport Tunnel was under construction from 1994 to 2003, which is relatively long. The 1999 Mont Blanc Tunnel fire caused significant changes to tunnel safety approach and many projects in development had to be redesigned (for example A507 in Marseille).
> 
> What would help for traffic on French N134 is a straight extension of A65, west of Pau and east of Oloron-Sainte-Marie. This will significantly reduce travel time, the current N134 is a low-standard road in that area, with a lot of development around it and many roundabouts, coupled with high traffic volumes.
> 
> South of Oloron, there isn't much traffic at all.


Safety management is quite hard indeed.
I know one person who worked on tunnel management and told me about it. They do not have only periodic checks but a strong standard for trucks.

They are considered 1-5 according to danger. Most dangerous freights can cross tunnel only from 3:00 to 4:00. Tunnel must be down in both directions and truck must cross it with a firetruck besides.
Downer levels have downer restrictions. For instance, 1 requires no more than five trucks at same time AFAIK, and so on. I do not remember the level, I think it is 3, where they have to cross five trucks together with a firetruck but not down to traffic.


Another issue... each country manages fines in each territory. This is, speed is minimum 60, maximum 80. If you drive over it (or downer 60) you will receive two fines, one for French side and another one for Spanish side


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## ChrisZwolle

I took a two-week vacation in Spain. It was extremely hot, with temperatures in the high 30s almost every day, on some days even exceeding 40 °C. I wanted to go to Madrid but it was 42 °C, that's a bit too much. So I traveled from mountain range to mountain range, first in the Pyrenees, then to the Teruel/Castellón/Valencia area, then to the Sierra de Gredos west of Madrid and then to Picos de Europa, where it was also 37 °C. Then I went to the Basque Coast but the forecast for Bilbao was also 37 °C while the average June high in Bilbao is only 23 °C. 

So I traveled quite a bit of distance, 6680 kilometers in total from the Netherlands to Spain and back. I clinched many new routes.

What struck me though, was that many foreigners think almost all of Spanish motorways are tolled. I got the 'you must've paid a lot of tolls' question several times. Most tourists don't flock beyond Catalonia, Basque Country and a few other tourist areas which happen to have most of Spanish toll roads.

But in fact the only toll road I took was AP-8 from Bilbao to Irun. All other distance was untolled.










(the map does not show every single road I've driven, I drove many regional roads in those mountain ranges).


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## Reivajar

ChrisZwolle said:


> I took a two-week vacation in Spain. It was extremely hot, with temperatures in the high 30s almost every day, on some days even exceeding 40 °C. I wanted to go to Madrid but it was 42 °C, that's a bit too much. So I traveled from mountain range to mountain range, first in the Pyrenees, then to the Teruel/Castellón/Valencia area, then to the Sierra de Gredos west of Madrid and then to Picos de Europa, where it was also 37 °C. Then I went to the Basque Coast but the forecast for Bilbao was also 37 °C while the average June high in Bilbao is only 23 °C.
> 
> So I traveled quite a bit of distance, 6680 kilometers in total from the Netherlands to Spain and back. I clinched many new routes.
> 
> What struck me though, was that many foreigners think almost all of Spanish motorways are tolled. I got the 'you must've paid a lot of tolls' question several times. Most tourists don't flock beyond Catalonia, Basque Country and a few other tourist areas which happen to have most of Spanish toll roads.
> 
> But in fact the only toll road I took was AP-8 from Bilbao to Irun. All other distance was untolled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (the map does not show every single road I've driven, I drove many regional roads in those mountain ranges).


Pretty nice trip. By the way, do you know any good way of recording all those routes in a systematic and vectorial map? Google maps sucks. 

Well, I would say there is for sure some sort of correlation -but not exactly causation- between the tolled roads in Spain and the touristic areas. For sure, many of the oldest motorways built under the traditional tolled system are as well in the more developed regions of the country, which were at the same time the closest ones to the French border and popular destinations for foreigner visitors. Then, you can think as well that those motorways are just there for milking foreigners who get into Spain lol. But considering that the two main connections to France are tolled, it is "logical" that people may think so. As you say, you can't see many foreigners plates far from the coasts...


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## ChrisZwolle

Reivajar said:


> As you say, you can't see many foreigners plates far from the coasts...


That is definitely the case. I took several trips to Spain over the last three years and once you're away from the coast or sufficiently far south, there are basically no foreign passenger cars anymore, except around Costa del Sol and Costa Blanca where you have snowbirds. 

I felt a little embarrassed though, that some 80% of the guests at a campsite in Potes were Dutch, that's 1600 kilometers from home and it felt like a Dutch enclave, I don't like that over representation of Dutch people on vacation. Of course I add to it myself as well...


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## CNGL

Once again, you have passed through Huesca and didn't tell me? I see you have done all of A-23, including the most boring part (at least by Spanish standards, Teruel to Calamocha) and the section I want to bypass with a wormhole as I'm tired of driving it (Zaragoza to Huesca, and more precisely Parque Goya to Walqa, although the Southernmost part is N-330).

As for me I've done several new roads this month. I've clinched old N-II in Western Zaragoza province, a quite scenic road. I also did N-420 and A-222 in Teruel province, which I already mentioned a while ago, but I missed the gravity hill on a rest area off N-420 (Exactly here), because I didn't know about its existence at the time.

PS: Dutch people are everywhere. In all three roadtrips I've taken this month I saw vehicles with Dutch plates.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> That is definitely the case. I took several trips to Spain over the last three years and once you're away from the coast or sufficiently far south, there are basically no foreign passenger cars anymore, except around Costa del Sol and Costa Blanca where you have snowbirds.
> 
> I felt a little embarrassed though, that some 80% of the guests at a campsite in Potes were Dutch, that's 1600 kilometers from home and it felt like a Dutch enclave, I don't like that over representation of Dutch people on vacation. Of course I add to it myself as well...


Zaragoza-Teruel is quite boring (and near Calamocha I have seen biggest fines because speed in news) but just 30-40 km away you will have amazing roads and landscapes to visit again


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## ChrisZwolle

Zaragoza - Teruel runs through a wide valley, but there are continously mountain ranges in sight on either side of the motorway. The motorway sure took the path of the least resistance. The section between Cariñena and Daroca is quite nice though.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Zaragoza - Teruel runs through a wide valley, but there are continously mountain ranges in sight on either side of the motorway. The motorway sure took the path of the least resistance. The section between Cariñena and Daroca is quite nice though.


There were three options

- Shortest
- Cheapest
- Option to link more towns

Guess which was option chosen.

Teruel-Daroca is boring... but you have crossed longest brigde in Aragon (Lechago one, prepared for a future damn, with 950ish m length)

Daroca-Cariñena is amazing for anyone who know former national road (and specially road in the 80ish with two mountain passes).

As you could see, Cariñena has a long wine heritage. Grapes are taken in middle september. If you come again in early september, it will happen nothing if you get out motorway and stop anywhere to take grapes for tasting there (hint: nobody will say you anything providing you take some grapes and eat in landscape, everybody is welcome to taste goods in the own country... but do not take them away in a bag... it is not welcome)


----------



## MichiH

^^ I drove A23 from Zaragoza to Sagunt two years ago and it was NOT boring but quite interesting for me. I drove AP/A7 from Barcelona to Algeciras two months ago and it was partially very boring (likely because of slight rain though).


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## alserrod

In the meanwhile.... less than 30 km away from A-23, Albarracín, the known as "prettiest village in Spain"











20 km away from A-23, Rubielos de Mora

(picture of town hall building yardcourt)











and 18 km away to Mora de Rubielos












The picture is taken from the main road that crosses village!!!!, not a little street!!!


From the own N-234 at Luco de Jiloca you can have a look to this Roman brigde










It is enough to drive slow indeed!!!, look at https://www.google.es/maps/@40.9705...O1x_jNUOrJ7_XDDFM3Ig!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


Peracense castle is not far away











Daroca will deserve more than a day for a whole visit










and by the way, a SSC banner











Teruel, always Teruel

(it is a fake, the four Teruel towers in a collage)











and SSC banner











and... every corner you would want, but motorway is strongly boring compared with those secrets you can find just in a walk from A-23


And, please... avoid Calamocha. One day CNGL and me will agree or disagree if it is the ugliest or second ugliest town in Aragon


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## CNGL

^^ The ugliest town in Aragon is Alfamen (8 km off A-23), and you know it (_Y lo sabes_, a famous Spanish meme). I even conducted a poll on Twitter asking what is uglier, if that town or the back of a fridge. About Calamocha, the only time I ventured on its streets was in 2009 (many years ago), and that was during an orienteering race, so I cannot conclude if that is ugly or not.


ChrisZwolle said:


> Zaragoza - Teruel runs through a wide valley, but there are continously mountain ranges in sight on either side of the motorway. The motorway sure took the path of the least resistance. The section between Cariñena and Daroca is quite nice though.


Even so, it is because the valley is so wide which explains why I find A-23 between Calamocha and Teruel boring. Sure, there are mountain ranges in sight, but the motorway is flat. Also, A-23 runs nowhere near Daroca, perhaps you meant Romanos. Daroca isn't even signed Northbound.


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## Highway89

Yes, Dutch cars are somewhat common even in La Rioja, even on the most off-the-beaten-track places. And so are German camper vans. Quite a long way from home.


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## adevahi

ChrisZwolle said:


> I took a two-week vacation in Spain. It was extremely hot, with temperatures in the high 30s almost every day, on some days even exceeding 40 °C. I wanted to go to Madrid but it was 42 °C, that's a bit too much. So I traveled from mountain range to mountain range, first in the Pyrenees, then to the Teruel/Castellón/Valencia area, then to the Sierra de Gredos west of Madrid and then to Picos de Europa, where it was also 37 °C. Then I went to the Basque Coast but the forecast for Bilbao was also 37 °C while the average June high in Bilbao is only 23 °C.


The combination of your comment and the photo of your route made me impossible not to post this meme:










Translation: when andalusians see other people complaining about the high temperatures of their respective regions.


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## ChrisZwolle

I'd say 40°C is quite hot for June.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'd say 40°C is quite hot for June.



Last Wednesday, little village of Mequinenza in Aragon, boundaring with Catalonia got the European record: 41ºC (measured with standard weather conditions... this is, any car parked on the sun will have 45-48 degrees)



And, it is not Andalusia... it is Ebro valley, less than 100m osl but inner

https://www.google.es/maps/place/50...5b15e59fcd!8m2!3d41.3719971!4d0.3007533?hl=es


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## ChrisZwolle

The average high in June is 32 °C in Sevilla. I looked at the forecast and they had a week-long streak of 40-44 °C, which is quite close to the record high in June in Sevilla (45 °C).


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## CNGL

Well, you picked the wrong time to take a trip to Spain. Temperatures are going down this week. For example, the forecast max for my hometown for late this week is only 21°C. It has already gone down from 36.1°C on Thursday to 25.9°C today.


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## ChrisZwolle

*CV-10 Autovía de la Plana*

A couple of photos of CV-10, which is an extension of A-7 around the Castellón area.

1. At Nules, A-7 splits into N-340 and CV-10.

CV-10-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. The next 5 kilometers is signed as CV-10, but kilometer posts and exit numbers are those of A-7.

CV-10-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

CV-10-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. The actual CV-10 appears to start at Artana, as the exit numbering restarts at 1 and this sign is installed indicating it is operated by the Generalitat Valenciana.

CV-10-9 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. Castellón is served by three exits on CV-10, though it passes fairly far outside of the city, even AP-7 runs west of Castellón as well.

CV-10-25 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. We hit low mountain ranges north of Castellón.

CV-10-37 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. Major cities being indicated here as control cities (not). CV-10 serves an inland route to northern Castellón Province, but there are no sizable towns in that region. Sant Mateu has a population of only 2,000.

CV-10-41 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. Funny comic book style sign.

CV-10-42 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. An unusual sign I'd say.

CV-10-45 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. CV-10 exits here and becomes a decent-standard two-lane road with little traffic. Most toll avoiding traffic uses CV-13 to get to N-340.

CV-10-54 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## alserrod

CV-10 is supossed to be A-7 in future. It will join N-232 at La Jara (hence, change of name)


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## Reivajar

^^ Will it be transferred to Fomento (Spanish Ministry of Public Works) from the regional government?


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## alserrod

Reivajar said:


> ^^ Will it be transferred to Fomento (Spanish Ministry of Public Works) from the regional government?


AFAIK, yes.

Plans are to cross N-232 at La Jana and later, away from coast instead of paralel to N-330

A-68 is supposed to arrive only until La Jana (despite it is only projected, at the moment until Valdealgorfa)


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-15 Autovía del Urumea*

Some photos of A-15 near San Sebastián, the segment between Andoain and San Sebastián is known as the Autovía del Urumea, named after the Urumea River. It opened to traffic in stages between 2009 and 2013, creating a bypass for traffic from France to inland Spain, relieving N-I from this traffic. It was previously numbered as GI-131, but renumbered around 2011.

A map:









1. The A-1 (N-I) / A-15 split at Andoain. It features palm trees. :cheers:

A-15-44 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. The motorway split. 

A-15-45 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

A-15-48 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. Urnieta.

A-15-51 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. Hernani. I like the fact that you can drive 120 km/h on such motorways. In France such 'metropolitan' motorways would be reduced to 110 or even more likely 90 km/h.

A-15-53 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. Hernani is served by two exits.

A-15-56 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

A-15-57 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. We are approaching the AP-8 interchange. AP-1 is also signed. I find the AP-8/AP-1 concurrency between Eibar and Irun a bit superfluous. It is also not entirely consistently signed. AP-1 is not signed everywhere.

A-15-58 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. Traffic to France branches off.

A-15-60 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. Then traffic to the west.

A-15-61 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Reivajar

A bit of inconsistency on signaling Baiona/Bordeaux/Nothing for pointing to France... tricky. It is obvious that in recent years the criteria have been changing a lot.


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## CNGL

I once did some calculations, and when A-15 is completed all the way to Medinaceli (Currently there's a gap between South of Soria and Tudela, except near Agreda where it's already built) exit 168 will be renumbered to exit 323 (If Guipuscoa decides to do so).

Also, Baiona is signed the wrong way, as it is in Pontevedra province not far from Portugal. They should have signed Bayonne instead, as _Baiona_ is not official.


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## alserrod

The hint is that if you find any Catalan or Basque speaking cities in France, they will be pointed in that language.

They are mainly Bayonne (Baiona) and Perpignan (Perpinyà).

And in Galicia it exists a town called Bayona in Spanish and Baiona, official name, in Galician.



As a hint, it has one out of the prettiest "parador" (luxurious hotels, property of state and shettled in historic buildings or heritage ones or special locations).











This one has a pretty view over the Atlantic ocean and a history.... in 1492, they were three ships that departure to discover America. When come back, one of them, instead of arriving Andalucia arrived to that castle. I do not know reason.


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## ChrisZwolle

*CV-363*

I stumbled across this sign in Valenciana.

Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.967...4!1sKyT3WAUnrfEvXShS4POCEw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

How old would it be? And what does the 'L' mean?









In another observation, CV-363 runs across Aragón territory for almost 13 kilometers between Valenciana and the Ademuz exclave. There are CV-363 kilometer posts on Aragón territory. There is no access to the rest of the Aragón road network in this area, nor are there any people living there. Hoya de la Carrasca had a population of 2 in 1999.


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## VITORIA MAN

L- = local ?


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## CNGL

The L stands for local road. Not that hard. And yes, since that section of road is isolated from the rest of Aragon (A-1514 doesn't quite reach it, instead hitting the Valencian community (herein referred to as "Valencia") border a few km to the East), it makes sense for Valencia to maintain it. The Rincon de Ademuz may be a geographical exclave, but is not a road exclave . I'll have to find if a CV-363 exists in Zaragoza province, so there would be two instances of the same road number in Aragon (although I would refer to the one in Zaragoza as _Z_V-363, if it exists).

BTW, it drives me crazy that there are no "green" roads in Valencia, so it appears all regional roads are either almost national or local, with no _comarcal_ roads. However, some time age I discovered they have an unified numbering system for regional and provincial roads, so if it was to draw a map of Valencia I'd mark the CV-xxx roads owned by the region in green. Also, for the ones owned by the provinces the CV has double meaning, both as referring to the region and as _camino vecinal_, as used by other provinces such as Zaragoza.

Also, there is no region called "Valenciana". It's always _Comunidad Valenciana_ in Spanish .


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## Highway89

"L-" stands for "Local". That kind of signs was used between 1939 and 1962. Here you have more information: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=129761171&postcount=1215


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## ChrisZwolle

So these 'L' signs actually never had a number indicated?


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> So these 'L' signs actually never had a number indicated?


Most of them did. Here's an example from Álava: https://goo.gl/maps/yoVdFnFnEFU2

If I'm not mistaken, those "L-" roads were later renumbered with the provincial prefix. E.g. the L-450 in Albacete became AB-450. But in the case of Álava, I think the prefix remained "L". "CV-" (Camino Vecinal) roads were also renumbered in most provinces to _XX_-V-1234.

For instance, here's a legal text from 1978:


> ALAVA
> SE PROHIBE CIRCULAR POR LA CARRETERA COMARCAL C-6210, ENTRE CIORROGA (KILOMETRO 30) Y VALMASEDA (KILOMETRO 68).
> SE AUTORIZA LA CIRCULACION POR LAS CARRETERAS LOCALES L-121, DE ZAMBRANA AL LIMITE DE BURGOS; L-126, DE OYON AL LIMITE DE LOGROÑO; L-6212 ENTRE CIORROGA (CRUCE CON LA C-6210) Y EL LIMITE DE VIZCAYA, Y L-621, ENTRE VITORIA Y EL KILOMETRO 4.
> 
> ALBACETE
> 
> CN-322. ENTRE ALCARAZ Y BALAZOTE LA VELOCIDAD NO EXCEDERA DE 40 KILOMETROS POR HORA, Y ENTRE ALBOREA Y EL LIMITE DE LA PROVINCIA DE VALENCIA (KILOMETROS 10 AL 20) LA VELOCIDAD MAXIMA SERA DE 20 KILOMETROS POR HORA, POR EXISTIR NUMEROSAS CURVAS DE PEQUEÑO RADIO.
> 
> CC-415 ENTRE ALCARAZ Y ELCHE DE LA SIERRA, P.K. 147 A 239, LA VELOCIDAD NO EXCEDERA DE 20 KILOMETROS POR HORA.
> 
> 
> SE AUTORIZA LA CIRCULACION CON VELOCIDAD LIMITE DE 20 KILOMETROS POR HORA POR LAS SIGUIENTES CARRETERAS LOCALES:
> 
> AB-450, DESDE CN-330 A CAUDETE.


^^ Notice that, for some reason, "C-" (Comarcal) roads appear as "CC-" (Carretera Comarcal) and "N-" (Nacional) as "CN-" (Carretera Nacional), although officially they were C- and N-.


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## Reivajar

Highway89 said:


> ^^ Notice that, for some reason, "C-" (Comarcal) roads appear as "CC-" (Carretera Comarcal) and "N-" (Nacional) as "CN-" (Carretera Nacional), although officially they were C- and N-.


This inconsistent way of naming roads is as well observed sometimes in France (RN for _Route Nationale_ instead of the simpler and oficial N for _Nationale_, and the same for the RD instead of D for _Routes Departamentales_).

Similar case in Germany, where sometimes I've seen some _Autobahnen_ named as BAB for _Bundesautobahn_ instead of the more common A for _Autobahn_. 

Actually, I would say that the only country which names roads this way is Italy with the SS, SR and SP (for _Strade Statali_, _Regionali_ and _Provinciali_).

Just weird... :lol:


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> In another observation, CV-363 runs across Aragón territory for almost 13 kilometers between Valenciana and the Ademuz exclave. There are CV-363 kilometer posts on Aragón territory. There is no access to the rest of the Aragón road network in this area, nor are there any people living there. Hoya de la Carrasca had a population of 2 in 1999.


La Cervera belongs to Abejuela municipality and they are only two people indeed. Less than 100 (maybe 50) in the whole municipality, a very small village.

These kind of boundary villages have always their own story. For instance, Abejuela citizens are the only one with a health Valencian card and an Aragonese valencian card.

Due to its location it is much cheaper for a doctor going ONCE per week to the village coming from Valencia region rather from Aragon. It is very common in these boundaries villages (for instance all Ademuz exclave has Teruel hospital as main nearest hospital instead of Valencia and surroundings). Administrations calculate how much money does it means and just pay between them and offer service who can do it for less cost. Therefore, Valencian doctor to Abejuela.

So then, they were given a Valencian health card as well they were under cares of Valencian doctors.

Aragon set in pharmacies an electronic system and for a single prescription it could be a nightmare at the begining (not now, they have improved, I am talking about 12-14 years ago) for asking any medicine due to having an outside Aragon health card and being under test phase.

They quarrel due to they said they were also Aragonese and were entitled to have an Aragonese health card. Therefore, administration gave them a health card for all citizens (50ish...) to make them easier to buy in pharmacies at the begining.

Today it doesn't matter this kind of issue because electronic systems are connected but they keep their right to have both health cards... only living at Abejuela (and those two people at La Cervera due to it is officially Abejuela municipality) and nobody else!!.



In terms of roads, there are a lot of roads that could cross a territory, owner doesn't care and neighbour can say that they will take care about the whole road if it doesn't matter. This helps to improve roads in exclaves or in boundaries territories.


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## alserrod

For instance, this road, connecting Sos del rey catolico and Uncastillo (two very pretty villages indeed) crosses a Navarran enclave and it was refurbished by Aragonese administration and remains maintained by them. There are nobody living in that enclave, Navarra doesn't matter almost anything can happen there and do not worry to have an enlarged road.
By the way, this enclave belongs to Petilla de Aragon, the another enclave located in the north and where Santiago Ramon y Cajal (Nobel medicine award) was born by hazard.


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## MichiH

Reivajar said:


> Similar case in Germany, where sometimes I've seen some _Autobahnen_ named as BAB for _Bundesautobahn_ instead of the more common A for _Autobahn_.


Sure? I know BAB from documents* only but never saw it on signs. Maybe on "Stationszeichen"/"kilometric points" which we are about?

*e.g. plan approval documents.


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## ChrisZwolle

Buying out a concession is more expensive than to build a new autovía alongside it...

Though what happens when the concession ends? Then the state may have to maintain two parallel motorways... 

At € 0.12 per kilometer, the AP-7 is super expensive.


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## alserrod

Be sure they will make any extra works providing they enlarge concessions...


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## CNGL

arctic_carlos said:


> As alserrod points out, construction has started today on the new section of A-68 between Gallur and Mallén (15.1 km). It will have a cost of €49.75M (€3.29M/km). Current AADT is 13,000, 50% of which are trucks. Opening to traffic is expected in 2020 (source).
> 
> When completed (together with its neighboring Figueruelas - Gallur section, under construction since late 2015), there will be a continuous 83 km section of toll-free A-68 between Zaragoza and south of Alfaro, parallel to tolled AP-68 (Spanish style :crazy.
> 
> Map of the new section:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Official press release (in Spanish): http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...ra-de-de/6e9470be-1e56-48f9-917d-0c2ddd490672


I'd like to know from where Fomento get their map data, since A-1301 doesn't run on that road (which is CV-620, or ZV-620 as I call it as CV-620 is a section of old N-340 near Xativa in Valencia) but instead to Ainzon, and A-1302 doesn't exist at all (the road in question actually being CP-1 provincial road), that sign at the infamous stop in Borja is a goof.


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## ChrisZwolle

alserrod said:


> Be sure they will make any extra works providing they enlarge concessions...


I wonder if some concession companies are willing to give up their concession at the end of their period. AP-68 will be parallelled by A-68 for a long stretch, meaning AP-68 has almost no benefit to drivers anymore, why drive AP-68 at a high toll rate while you can drive the exact same speed on a toll-free autovía right next to it? These concessions will become increasingly unviable to finance for concession companies.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ I'd rather say that the main problem for concession companies is that the Spanish government is not willing to renew their concessions once they expire. It's an issue that has been subject to political debate for a long time, but we will see its development in a couple of years, when some of the concessions (AP-2, some parts of AP-7) start to expire.

The regional government of Catalonia, for instance, plans a vignette system for all motorways in its territory to replace the current toll system (including AP-2 and AP-7), but the Spanish government doesn't agree. So we'll have to wait a little until a solution is found. What seems quite likely is that the current system with private concession companies will no longer continue. Toll motorways will either become toll-free or tolled but with lower fares and managed by the State (à la basque).


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder if some concession companies are willing to give up their concession at the end of their period. AP-68 will be parallelled by A-68 for a long stretch, meaning AP-68 has almost no benefit to drivers anymore, why drive AP-68 at a high toll rate while you can drive the exact same speed on a toll-free autovía right next to it? These concessions will become increasingly unviable to finance for concession companies.




Current "Recajo" exit seems will have booths for a while only. It is supposed to have main booths before and after Logroño, incluiding before Navarrete and after Agoncillo. This is, for a Bilbao-Zaragoza, taking ticket at Bilbao, paying at Navarrete, free till Agoncillo, ticket again and paying at Alagon (25 km ahead Zaragoza).

I guess they will take it asap providing they will enlarge concessions... this country works in this way always. A little strech untolled, a long time tolled for the rest of streches.


In the case of A-68, there is free motorway in Navarra... and using it means leaving at Gallur, having 80 km/h for 7 km, later full motorway but about 8 km to take again AP-68.

What you can do now is leaving at Recajo, taking LO-20 - A-12 and taking again AP-68 at Navarrete (2 km detour) only.


If high traffic or a lot of local traffic I think two paralel motorways, with first with a lot of exits, second with barely exit is not a bad idea.

It not enough traffic, one motorway should be enough.

That's why I consider A-68 should be built and AP-2 should be untolled.


----------



## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> If high traffic or a lot of local traffic I think two paralel motorways, with first with a lot of exits, second with barely exit is not a bad idea.
> 
> It not enough traffic, one motorway should be enough.
> 
> That's why I consider A-68 should be built and AP-2 should be untolled.


I agree, but we also have to bear in mind another issue: with every new section of toll-free motorway built parallel to a toll motorway, more and more long-distance traffic diverts from the toll motorway to the parallel free-of-toll route, that includes sections that are conventional national roads. As a result, congestion and accident rates increase in those sections, so the government has to turn them also into motorways. It's a vicious circle.

An example: N-340 and AP-7 in Tarragona. The construction of A-7 as a toll-free motorway around Tarragona was fully justified because AP-7 has few exits and the urban area has a lot of traffic. However, after a few years they extended A-7 on both ends (to Vandellòs and to La Móra), which made the toll-free itinerary attractive to long-distance traffic that formerly used AP-7. As a result, N-340 has become congested in sections that weren't planned to become part of A-7 (between La Móra and Torredembarra and between Vandellòs and L'Ametlla de Mar). Now it's necessary to extend A-7 to solve that issue, but in the future it's quite likely that the same happens again and they have to extend A-7 until it becomes a 100% parallel motorway to AP-7. And AP-7 will then become a useless 2x3 motorway that the government will have to bail out. Does it make sense?


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## ChrisZwolle

*Ma-19, Mallorca*

The media report that the Consell de Mallorca will formally approve the motorway extension of Ma-19 from Llucmajor to Campos tomorrow. It is a € 42 million project that would go into the tender phase soon, perhaps construction by late 2017 or early 2018?

http://www.mallorcadiario.com/el-co...-el-desdoblamiento-de-la-via-campos-llucmajor


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## arctic_carlos

*A-23*

I just saw that the Minister also announced new opening dates for these two sections:



MichiH said:


> *A23:* Caldearenas – Alto de Monrepos ~5km (< 2009 to 2018) – ? – map


May 2019. Official lentgh is 3.9 km, according to the _Fomento_ website.



MichiH said:


> *A23:* Lanave – Caldearenas 14.4km (< 2009 to ?) – ? – map


Spring 2018. Official length is 12 km, according to the _Fomento_ website.

Source: http://www.diariodelaltoaragon.es/NoticiasDetalle.aspx?Id=1070541


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## alserrod

Regarding "A-23 Caldearenas - Alto de Monrepos"...

Direction Huesca will be an upgrade of current road 1x1 which will be 2x0 only in that direction

Direction Jaca will have a new long tunnel... and will not pass exactly by Monrepos summit

Therefore it could come differences on distances. It will be longer direction Huesca than direction Jaca (I do not know which milesign will take on)


----------



## rpc08

ChrisMuenchen said:


> Hi. In a few weeks i will travel from Munich to Valencia. One part of my trip should be from Orthez in France to Pamplona. I would like to use the D933 on the French site and the N-135 on the spanish Side. Did somebody ever use the same roads and could tell me something about the current condition. are they smooth to ride? Thank you.


Made those roads some years ago trying to escape the usual summer jams in the Basque Country and my evaluation is: if you're going in a touristic mood with some time to waste it is a nice option, landscapes are pretty specially in the Spanish side. But if not, it will take you a significant load of time. From A64 to Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port D933 is not brilliant, I remember it has quite some roundabouts, but it's still nice to drive. From there to Pamplona is very curvy, and you will have to go up and down the Ibañeta Pass which is not exactly enjoyable if your time is limited. Travelling through A64 and A63 to the border and then taking N-121A is certainly faster (this, if you're travelling out of the problematic summer weekends).

Both roads were in very decent condition, still.


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## ChrisMuenchen

rpc08 said:


> Made those roads some years ago trying to escape the usual summer jams in the Basque Country and my evaluation is: if you're going in a touristic mood with some time to waste it is a nice option, landscapes are pretty specially in the Spanish side. But if not, it will take you a significant load of time. From A64 to Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port D933 is not brilliant, I remember it has quite some roundabouts, but it's still nice to drive. From there to Pamplona is very curvy, and you will have to go up and down the Ibañeta Pass which is not exactly enjoyable if your time is limited. Travelling through A64 and A63 to the border and then taking N-121A is certainly faster (this, if you're travelling out of the problematic summer weekends).
> 
> Both roads were in very decent condition, still.


Thank you. i would say i will be in a touristic mood  it is calculated with about 3 hours. I will be there around 6 o' clock in the morning. In the last years i took all know main-roads (more or less) from France to Spain and vice-versa. Tunnel de Vielha, Tunnel de Cadi, tunnel de somport. is the route comparabable to these three routes? But the Ibaneta pass is "only" 1.100 meters or has it nothing to do with the curvy road?


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## alserrod

That road is St. James pilgrim lane indeed.











There are four main lanes. Three of them join together in the last French village before entering Spain in Roncesvalles, the fourth one will enter via Somport summit and all will join together not far from Pamplona. They chose those mountain passes due to they are the lowest in each area (they weren't silly in the middle age).

I reccomend you a short visit to Roncesvalles and be aware they will be "different Pyrenees". Navarran mountains are lowest than in Aragon and in Catalonia and are also more wet. Therefore, you will not find these kind of mountainscapes but will find a lot of forest. They are "more green" but do not know how they will be in summer. Each season has a different colour and this year has been quite dry.

The hardest point you will cross is "Erro mountain pass". I have glanced in google maps and seems not bad (also not good) nowadays... be patient and after Pamplona, maybe motorway to any direction.

I really do not know more about there. I have been only when teenager with high school and I guess it will have changed so much...


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## Highway89

Yesterday the N-232 and the access to the AP-68 in Agoncillo, La Rioja had to be closed due to the floods caused by a severe storm. The weather station located in the airport recorded 82,6 mm of rain in a few hours, almost twice as the previous record.









Source: http://www.larioja.com/la-rioja/nuevo-oyon-20170708173548-nt.html

A few hous later:


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## ChrisZwolle

arctic_carlos said:


> According to the _Fomento_ website, construction has also started on another motorway section: GJ-20, the motorway access to the port of El Musel, in Gijón (Asturias).
> 
> The section currently under construction is 3.46 km long, between Lloreda and Veriña, following current AS-19 road. It will have a cost of €33.08M (€9.56M/km).
> 
> Map of the new section:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Official press release (in Spanish): http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...-de-de-y/0bbad73b-e061-4a22-99aa-8780a2c390cc



GJ-10 according to this tiny photo:









But GJ-10 seems weird. When following the Spanish ring road numbering, a XX-10 would generally be a ring road very close or directly around the city center, with higher numbers for routes farther out. Not many XX-10 autovías exist. For example in Madrid it starts at M-30, in Logroño it is LO-20, in San Sebastián it is also GI-20, in Valladolid it is VA-30, and in Sevilla it is SE-30. Off the top off my head, I can only think of B-10 in Barcelona for now.


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## alserrod

In Zaragoza there is a criteria about "rings". Nowadays they exits Z-30 as a 2x2 or 3x3 street (limited to 50) and Z-40 as 2x2 or even 2+3x3+2 limited to 120 (except in one tunnel)

But... in a old photo which was posted somewhere we can see how the streets around Roman city are called "ring". That would be Z-10, but never used that word.

Second ring was never pointed but it is clear where it crosses

Therefore, when a street ring and a motorway ring where built, they took Z-30 and Z-40


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## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> GJ-10 according to this tiny photo:


It's weird, in the Fomento website it's named GJ-20. :dunno:

According to the local press, it will take 39 months to complete this section (opening in October 2020), although the Minister said he hopes the construction companies in charge of building it can complete it sooner.

Source: http://www.lne.es/gijon/2017/07/09/fomento-inicia-primer-tramo-viales/2132794.html


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## ChrisZwolle

They are also building a six lane tunnel under the Plaça de les Glòries Catalanes in Barcelona. 










A lengthy video detailing the construction progress:






The area used to look like this:









Then they removed the viaducts, making a 10-lane surface street.


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## verreme

^^ About this tunnel: when finished (works are currently stopped due to some legal issues in the tendering process), construction should start on a second tunnel further east, which would allow free-flow traffic between the current terminus of C-31 and the end of the tunnel that's now U/C. This square has seen many iterations, with three different flyover layouts between the 1950s and today.


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## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> They are also building a six lane tunnel under the Plaça de les Glòries Catalanes in Barcelona.


Oh yes. Never thought of it as a road project. In SSC Spain it's usually treated from the urban planning perspective.

Anyway the tunnel works were suspended a couple of months ago due to a conflict between the city council and the contractor (there were some problems with the project due to the existence of several rail tunnels beneath the square). According to official plans, works should be restarted in January next year. The tunnel was supposed to be completed in 2019 but it won't be ready before 2020.

This how the are looks like at the moment:


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> El País reports that it will indeed be PPP projects with availability payments:
> Se planean actuaciones "en más de 20 corredores importantes del país" y que abarcarán más de 2.000 kilómetros y las obras se ejecutarán entre 2017 y 2021. Se usará el llamado "pago por disponibilidad"​https://economia.elpais.com/economia/2017/07/14/actualidad/1500029089_186919.html
> 
> *I haven't seen a list of projects to be executed though.* € 5 billion over a period of 5 years would be fairly consistent with regular Fomento spending on new roads (€ 950 million in the 2017 budget).


All I've been able to find is this piece of news, but it's full of mistakes so I don't know if it's reliable.

Basically:
*The ring roads of Murcia and Seville (SE-40).
*Third lane on the A-5 and A-1 in Madrid and A-8 from Santander to Bilbao.
*A-73 Burgos-Aguilar and a new A-1 between Alcobendas and the Jarama Circuit.



> *Lista de proyectos*
> 
> Aunque la lista de proyectos aún no es oficial, el Ministerio de Fomento ha tenido en cuenta algunas de las obras que ya se encontraban en fase de planificación o que en el pasado fueron suspendidas por falta de presupuesto público.
> Por volumen, entre los proyectos más importantes figura la circunvalación de *Murcia*, cuyo presupuesto de inversión supera los 300 millones de euros.
> El Gobierno también está dispuesto a acometer el viejo proyecto de la Radial 1 de *Madrid*, una alternativa a la salida hacia Burgos (A-1). En la lista de actuaciones en Madrid también podría figurar la ampliación con un tercer carril de la A-5 (Madrid-Extremadura) y de la A-1 a su paso por la urbanización Santo Domingo. La mayor parte de estos proyectos están incluidos en el catálogo de proyectos que la patronal Seopan entregó al Gobierno en abril.
> En *Andalucía*, la obra más potente será el cierre de la circunvalación S-40 de Sevilla. Destacan también las obras en *Cantabria* como, por ejemplo, el tercer carril en la Autovía Norte (Santander-Vizcaya) y la ampliación de carriles en el corredor entre Burgos y Aguilar de Campoo. En *Galicia*, el Gobierno trabaja en el corredor Vigo-Porriño.


http://www.expansion.com/empresas/inmobiliario/2017/07/14/59686b9922601d44328b4593.html


Many of the projects were "suggested" by the trade association SEOPAN in April. The report can be found here: http://seopan.es/informe-sener/


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-3 Buñol - Requena*

A couple of photos of A-3 between Buñol and Requena, in western Valenciana.

1. The viaducto de Buñol. It is two kilometers long, A-3 gains 100 meters in altitude on the bridge. It opened on 2 December 1993.

A-3-21 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. N-III (not N-111) to Ventamina.

A-3-23 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. Seven waters

A-3-26 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. The Source of Umbria 

A-3-30 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

A-3-31 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. The centro de conservación of Fomento. They do everyday maintenance and operations on a number of national roads in the region.

A-3-33 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. At Requena.

A-3-35 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. Utiel is the next sub-control city.

A-3-38 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Highway89

^^

#2: I've actually read/heard many times "N-III" when referring to the N-111, usually when the Piqueras mountain pass was closed due to the snow :nuts:

#4: More likely "shady source/spring"


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> A couple of photos of A-3 between Buñol and Requena, in western Valenciana.
> 
> 
> 7. At Requena.
> 
> A-3-35 by European Roads, on Flickr


I like how in Valencia they paint Jersey barriers black-and-white. It's something I haven't seen in any other part of Spain but I see it everywhere in Valencia and Castellón. They do the same with curbs, too.

Red-and-white curbs used to be very popular in Barcelona province, but now many of them are gone. IMO I don't think they make a big difference road safety-wise, but they break the monotony of a long motorway drive.


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## verreme

sponge_bob said:


> AFAIR the last lot of PPPs in the 2000s were a combination of Tolls (Radiales and AP7) and availability payments of some sort from Fomento called an "RPA" in Spain. When many of these toll roads entered bankruptcy in the past few years the "RPA" was no longer payable annually as I understand and Fomento thereby saved some money. But the PPP model from the 2000s is a dead duck after the minimum €2.5bn of losses incurred on the Radiales and the AP7 (south of Cartagena)


AFAIK most, if not all, PPP road projects in Spain were shadow tolls. This includes regional motorways (notably those built in Catalonia and Murcia -not sure about Galicia and Castilla-La Mancha) and projects executed by Fomento (modernisation of first-generation _autovías_).


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## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> A couple of photos of A-3 between Buñol and Requena, in western Valenciana.


Once again, there's no region in Spain called just "Valenciana", it's _Comunidad Valenciana_ (Valencian Community). The shorthand form is Valencia, but it's seldom used as the community also comprises Castellón and Alicante.


ChrisZwolle said:


> 2. N-III (not N-111) to Ventamina.


Yup. N-111 runs from Medinaceli to Pamplona (or at least used to run, since Navarre has renumbered most of its section after A-12 was built, so N-111 now ends at Viana). I once drove the Soria to Logroño section, it's a scenic drive especially in Rioja.


ChrisZwolle said:


> 3. Seven waters


Here are two more waters for a total of nine, also in Valencia . And in my province there's just waters.


ChrisZwolle said:


> 7. At Requena.


Notice N-330 which runs through my hometown . It used to run from Alicante all the way to the French border at the Somport pass, although now A-31 has caused it to be truncated to Almansa, and it also has been/is being replaced by A-23 through most of Aragon. Only the Almansa-Requena, Utiel-Teruel and Jaca-France sections will remain as a regular road.


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## alserrod

N-330 is these kind of roads that have nonsense. Nobody would take it to go from Alicante to Teruel via inner territory. They would take A-7 (or whatever, they can choose other free and tolled options) till Sagunto and turn Teruel.

When nobody takes a road corner to corner, it really have nonsense and I would "break them" into several little more roads.

In addition, every milestone refers to start point, km.0. Therefore we could see for a while that in the north of Zaragoza there were 501 km to Alicante should we took a road that nobody takes and, if you enter in Spain through Somport tunnel, instead of seeing milestones referring Huesca or Zaragoza, they will point Alicante at all!!!!! even when nobody cross that border to reach Alicante.

And... as a welcome, first milestone is km.666, a nice devil welcome coming from France.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ N-420 (Tarragona - Córdoba) is another good example of an extremely long national road that currently sees little long-distance traffic from end to end. AP-7 + A-3 + A-43 + A-4 is by far the fastest route.


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## ChrisZwolle

I don't think it's a problem if a number takes a route that few - if any - traffic uses from end to end. The motorway network is dense enough that not many trips in excess of 100 - 150 kilometers are made on the carretera nacional network nowadays. 

The long-distance national roads are a thing from the past, but it is still heavily used for locating businesses, for example business x on km 321 of N-100. 

Since the route numbering plan is currently detached from actual ownership in some autonomous regions, they could transfer roads to a lower government without having to renumber it. In France it resulted in a mess with many former national roads now having 4-digit route départementale numbers. In this day and age of GPS not that many people care about numbering anymore, so why go through the effort of changing it all? N83 is more identifyable than D2083.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-125 Aragón*

I was looking at A-125 in Aragón, a 73 kilometer east-west road from the Navarra border via Ejea de los Caballeros to Ayerbe.

Aragón classifies this road as a 'Red Arterial I', the highest class of carreteras autonómicas in Aragón. However the eastern half of A-125 is very substandard for a major route, it has a narrow carriageway, no center line and is quite curvy at times. It used to be a carretera comarcal (C-125). 

You can see the effect of this poor road in the traffic volumes, Ejea - Huesca traffic takes A-124, A-1209 and A-23 instead of A-125 / A-132 (they are about the same distance). The eastern part of A-125 hardly carries more than 200 vehicles per day while some 1.600 - 3.600 vehicles per day use A-125 / A-124 / A-1209. 





































I've seen a similar effect on A-228 in Teruel province. One section looked like the photos above (or worse) where you can drive maybe 40-60 km/h at best, while another section has a wide carriageway where you can drive 90 km/h.


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## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was looking at A-125 in Aragón, a 73 kilometer east-west road from the Navarra border via Ejea de los Caballeros to Ayerbe.
> 
> Aragón classifies this road as a 'Red Arterial I', the highest class of carreteras autonómicas in Aragón. However the eastern half of A-125 is very substandard for a major route, it has a narrow carriageway, no center line and is quite curvy at times. It used to be a carretera comarcal (C-125).
> 
> You can see the effect of this poor road in the traffic volumes, Ejea - Huesca traffic takes A-124, A-1209 and A-23 instead of A-125 / A-132 (they are about the same distance). The eastern part of A-125 hardly carries more than 200 vehicles per day while some 1.600 - 3.600 vehicles per day use A-125 / A-124 / A-1209.


You guessed it, when I go to Ejea de los Caballeros and points West (like Calahorra back in March) I use A-23 to A-1209 to A-124 to A-125. Last year I decided to drive A-125, and what a torture between Erla and Ardisa (but at least I have driven all of it). The section in Huesca province, while still narrow, at least is more straight.

Also, C-125 suddenly ended at Ardisa. It was planned to meet N-330 there, but it was never built, and moved to its current routing in 1982. So, for the final years of its existence C-125 was extended from Ardisa to Jaca, using a previously provincial route and then over the former N-330 routing, now A-1205. Also, after Aragon renumbered its roads A-125 also ended at Ardisa for a while, with the rest to Ayerbe being A-124. This meant the old N-330 project (or at least the Southern part of it as by that time a dam in Biscarrues was also planned, which would have flooded the Northern part) was still alive as a road near Zuera was also designated A-124. But then they decided to rebuild the road to Erla, which was at first numbered A-1103, and provide another route from Ejea de los Caballeros to Zaragoza (I suspect this had to do with the construction of N-330 motorway, now A-23. In fact this is the best route now, although people still go on A-127/N-232/A-68). This left A-1103 with a 'wrong' number (it should be A-12xx now).


ChrisZwolle said:


> I've seen a similar effect on A-228 in Teruel province. One section looked like the photos above (or worse) where you can drive maybe 40-60 km/h at best, while another section has a wide carriageway where you can drive 90 km/h.


Yup, A-228. Even though I haven't driven nothing of it yet (although I've gone past both termini), I know it's a good road from Albentosa to Gudar, then a goat track to Camarillas, and then again a good road (built in the 90s) to Cañada Vellida. However this is changing now, as I've read it's now being rebuilt from Gudar to Allepuz. Another example is A-220, with two good sections at the extremes (La Almunia de Doña Godina to Cariñena, repaved last year; and Fuendetodos to Belchite) and a goat track in the middle. This is also slated for reconstruction soon, at least the first few km East of Cariñena are beginning works this year.


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## alserrod

A-125 is one out of those main roads I have pointed as priority but forgotten. Just to link main cities in Aragon, except Zaragoza, it is important (Huesca-Ejea in this case, enlarged to Tudela.

It is a pity becase absolutely all citizens take motorway A-23 with a little detour

Edit... and... it is not the worst among all main roads in Aragon


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## sponge_bob

MMMmmmmm What a _Lovely_ _*Spanish A Road*_. 



ChrisZwolle said:


> I was looking at A-125 in Aragón,


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## CNGL

^^ That's because you haven't seen A-1505 . I've already suffered both.


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## sponge_bob

CNGL said:


> ^^ That's because you haven't seen A-1505 . I've already suffered both.


Ahh but I did the A-7207 which is busier than those Meseta specials of yours.


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## alserrod

OK, my bet is longer than Chris one!!!

A-219

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.8367...838&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

It was supposed to enlarge this road and build a new bridge over Cinca and have a direct connection between Zaragoza/Monegros center and La Litera area, and new brigde over Cinca river.

Between Monzon and Fraga (N-240 and N-II and obviously A-22 and A-2 & AP-2) there's only one brigde where two cars cannot cross at same time (and high speed railway brigde, forbidden for cars and pietons!!)

It appeared on maps in 95 and forgotten!!!


Be sure you will not find a new record

(and in Aragon, main regional network road is A-XXX with three digits and orange plate, thus this is a main road)

Another record could be this one

A-228
https://www.google.es/maps/@40.4437...857&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

just look southern and northern Gudar but I do not say many things about it because it is proposed to have on works at least until Allepuz cross asap (and plans to enlarge all the road)


There's a third case but I let CNGL to talk about it...


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ I drove A-228 from Allepuz to A-23 last month. There is even a ski resort of some sort, which is hard to believe when you walk through that dry forest at 35 °C. 

Has A-129 ever extended from Sariñena to Monzón? It's called the 'Carretera de Zaragoza - Monzón' and Google Maps also signs it as A-129 east of Sariñena, but there are no actual signs in the field confirming that route. It is also a lower standard road. The Plan General de Carreteras only defines A-129 from Zaragoza to Sariñena (69 km). 

The Wikipedia list of former carreteras comarcales only lists C-129 from Zaragoza to Sariñena as well. But when you leave Zaragoza, both Barbastro and Monzón are signed on the distance tableaux.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ I drove A-228 from Allepuz to A-23 last month. There is even a ski resort of some sort, which is hard to believe when you walk through that dry forest at 35 °C.


And the municipality it belongs that ski resort is, indeed, the highest village in Spain (Valdelinares, 1692m ovl).

In summer it will be hot... maybe 7-10 degrees less than in Zaragoza but it will be hot too... remember that we are in southern Europe

But in winter, ski resort is at 2000ish mosl, it really doesn't snow too much but it is enough with some snow and it is so cold that they will keep snow for all season.

Some years ago, a well-known car company took an ad in Spain and wanted to prove in the hardest area. They chose that little village and, providing they would cooperate for the ad (this is, the 80 inhabitants they live there appeared in the ad) they gifted an off-road car to the village.

Once I glanced a news about bus routes in Aragon and the one that crosses this area, three times per week in the morning to Teruel (only one per week in Valdelinares) and back afternoon, is the one that requires more money to keep service. Just guess about how many people live there...





> Has A-129 ever extended from Sariñena to Monzón? It's called the 'Carretera de Zaragoza - Monzón' and Google Maps also signs it as A-129 east of Sariñena, but there are no actual signs in the field confirming that route. It is also a lower standard road. The Plan General de Carreteras only defines A-129 from Zaragoza to Sariñena (69 km).
> 
> The Wikipedia list of former carreteras comarcales only lists C-129 from Zaragoza to Sariñena as well. But when you leave Zaragoza, both Barbastro and Monzón are signed on the distance tableaux.



Well... they have punt milestones... but everyone will make a detour to get better roads. Sariñena-Fraga is fine


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## Highway89

One of the worst "orange" roads I know is the A-447 between Alanís and the A-3275 intersection in Andalusia. Here's a video I've found.






The other part of it looks fairly good, though:










In La Rioja we have the former C-113, which looks like this for the most part:









...but then becomes a treacherous 5 m wide road. Apparently it has remained unchanged since it was built as a bypass for the Mansilla reservoir in the early 1950s.










Then it becomes the typical 6 m wide road designed with the same pre-1980s (?) standards as others N and C roads.










In Castilla y León it was renamed to BU-825 and downgraded to a lower category (green - provincial). This part used to have center line indicating passing and no-passing zones, but it's used so little that the last time it was chip-sealed they just painted broken outer lines.












sponge_bob said:


> Ahh but I did the A-7207 which is busier than those Meseta specials of yours.


Just for clarification: Aragón doesn't lie on the _Meseta_


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## ChrisZwolle

Highway89 said:


> Then it becomes the typical 6 m wide road designed with the same pre-1980s (?) standards as others N and C roads.


The Plan REDIA was approved in 1960 to upgrade N-roads to 12 meters wide (7 m driving lane an 2.5 + 2.5 m shoulders). Originally it included only the radiales and a few other major N-roads, but later 9 and 12 meter wide carriageways became more or less the standard design for carreteras nacionales in Spain wherever possible.


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## CNGL

sponge_bob said:


> Ahh but I did the A-7207 which is busier than those Meseta specials of yours.


Erm... Aragon ain't part of the plateau, except maybe the extreme Western part around Ariza. I really like A-2 near Contamina towards Madrid, as you descend out of the Jalon canyon into what may be already the Castilian plateau while still in Aragon!


ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ I drove A-228 from Allepuz to A-23 last month. There is even a ski resort of some sort, which is hard to believe when you walk through that dry forest at 35 °C.


Yup, Valdelinares ski resort, but that is not directly accesed from A-228, but instead from A-2705 (a newly-designated road which came into existence only in 2015), which branches off A-228 near Alcala de la Selva. Also, did you see works between Allepuz and Gudar? According to this website they are working on it.


ChrisZwolle said:


> Has A-129 ever extended from Sariñena to Monzón? It's called the 'Carretera de Zaragoza - Monzón' and Google Maps also signs it as A-129 east of Sariñena, but there are no actual signs in the field confirming that route. It is also a lower standard road. The Plan General de Carreteras only defines A-129 from Zaragoza to Sariñena (69 km).
> 
> The Wikipedia list of former carreteras comarcales only lists C-129 from Zaragoza to Sariñena as well. But when you leave Zaragoza, both Barbastro and Monzón are signed on the distance tableaux.


I remember seeing a map where C-129 was shown to extend to what is now the N-240/A-130 junction across the river from Monzon, mostly paralleling the railway. But actually it never went past Lastanosa. The Sariñena-Lastanosa section became A-2212 in the 80s, with the rest of C-129 becoming A-129. A-129 ends at Sariñena and does not go further despite what many maps show, and a extension to Binefar (not Monzon) has been long planned. It would include a bridge over Cinca river, which has only one crossing between Monzon and Fraga (another one is planned further dowstream at Zaidin, it would be an extension of A-1241). To reach Barbastro and Monzon from Sariñena one has to go on A-131 (which has been recently upgraded) and A-1223, and A-1226 if one wants to go to Barbastro.


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## ChrisZwolle

CNGL said:


> Also, did you see works between Allepuz and Gudar? According to this website they are working on it.


They probably just started when I passed there, the only thing I saw was some brush clearing.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-228*

I even took two photos of the 40 kilometer post. Are these new style 10 km posts? I don't recall seeing them on other A-roads in Teruel province.

These photos were taken at Gúdar, where the narrow road becomes much more modern. I just parked on the middle of the road, I did not encounter any car from Allepuz to Gúdar... The AADT is only 200 according to Aforos 2015.


A-228 Aragón-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

This one was a bit out of focus unfortunately.

A-228 Aragón-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## alserrod

Yes, they are new. It is the first time I see these kind of 10km milestones


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Plan REDIA was approved in 1960 to upgrade N-roads to 12 meters wide (7 m driving lane an 2.5 + 2.5 m shoulders). Originally it included only the radiales and a few other major N-roads, but later 9 and 12 meter wide carriageways became more or less the standard design for carreteras nacionales in Spain wherever possible.


True. The new standards (_3.1-IC Trazado_) were approved in 1964 according to this website: http://carreteros.org/normativa/trazado/trazado.htm

However, most national roads weren't upgraded until the 1980's. It must had been a hell of an improvement. I recently drove the old N-625 (Madrid-)Pancorbo-Bilbao, the main connection before the AP-68 was opened. A stretch of it remained as it was in 1980. It was a lovely rollercoaster full of narrow bridges and tight curves at blind hills. No wonder Spain had such a sky-high road death toll back then. However, I'm accustomed to driving on modern roads with good alignment, so I kind of enjoy roads that just follow the terrain and force you to be alert.


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## Highway89

Here's a video of the recently opened bypass of Font de la Figuera on the A-33:



Stepi said:


> Ahí va un vídeo de la nueva variante....
> 
> https://youtu.be/nShjMk8s_14


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=141227982&postcount=87


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## arctic_carlos

*A-14*

5 years later, A-14 is no longer a motorway to nowhere:



MichiH said:


> *A14:* Alguaire – Lleida (A2) ~8km (October 2013 to Late June 2017) – ? – map


Opened today! Official press release (in Spanish): http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...eida-y-A/e8325586-b91d-49ba-964a-4f7a15fe41db

Some pictures from the Minister's twitter account:


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## arctic_carlos

*A-1051*



MichiH said:


> *A1051:* Las Losas – Cortijos de Marin 4.9km (2011 to Summer 2017) – ? – map


The Andalusian regional president, Ms. Susana Díaz, visited today the 4 km section that will finally open to traffic tomorrow. The remaining 1 km section to complete Roquetas de Mar bypass will open in September.

Official press release from the Junta de Andalucía: http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/pres...rimer/nivel/fruto/colaboracion/institucional#










Source: http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/309...riante-roquetas-que-se-completara-septiembre/


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## ChrisZwolle

arctic_carlos said:


> 5 years later, A-14 is no longer a motorway to nowhere:
> 
> Opened today! Official press release (in Spanish): http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...eida-y-A/e8325586-b91d-49ba-964a-4f7a15fe41db


Fomento minister Íñigo de la Serna also announced that N-240 duplication between Lleida and Les Borges Blanques has the highest priority. That would be A-27.

https://www.segre.com/noticies/coma...autovia_entre_lleida_rossello_23784_1091.html

So A-27 seems to have a higher priority than a further extension of A-14 now. 

Interesting though, that Fomento maps show the 'Enlace de Roselló'. That interchange does not exist. The first interchange is Alguaire.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ The Roselló interchange was originally planned, but subsequently ruled out in order to save costs. It wouldn't have been very useful, since reaching A-2 from Roselló would have been faster via N-230 than via A-14, and northbound traffic to/from Roselló can use the Alguaire interchange without a considerable detour.

So here it's the newspaper (_Segre_) fault to be still using an outdated map.

Regarding N-240 duplication between Lleida and Les Borges Blanques, it's not clear whether that section will actually be part of A-27 or just a widening of N-240 to 2x2 with roundabouts. The Minister also announced today that the construction of 3 roundabouts on that section will be tendered soon, so it's quite likely that the duplication won't meet motorway standards.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A14R2 at Almenar. This is the kilometer post for the link road between A-14 and N-230 north of Almenar.


----------



## alserrod

I bet, nothing to do in N-240 next three years. Fomento has to deal with a lot of issues in these years, already started. Another issue is to put above in the list for next minister


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-14*

Some pictures of A-14 between Lleida and Almenar (16 km), including both the old and the new sections:



Sky said:


> https://www.segre.com/multimedia/ga...acio_del_tram_l_14_entre_lleida_rossello.html


----------



## alserrod

Can be caught as signals about neighbour countries, indeed


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-32*

Fomento has reactivated the works on three sections of A-32 in northeastern Andalusia:

http://www.europapress.es/andalucia...zobispo-finalizacion-2019-20170718135907.html

* Úbeda - Torreperogil (16,3 km)
* Torreperogil - Villacarril (13,6 km)
* Villacarril - Villanueva del Arzobispo (17,2 km)

It was announced earlier that these sections would be under construction in 2015, but evidently that did not come through. These sections (47.1 km) will be completed in 2019. 

Úbeda - Torreperogil has seen the most works before they were ceased in 2010, they built a substantial amount of the embankment and 8 or 9 bridges that carry A-32 over other roads. Torreperogil - Villanueva del Arzobispo hasn't seen much more than some expropriation according to April 2016 imagery in Google Earth.


----------



## alserrod

Crossed there first time in 2003 and section until Ubeda was u/c...

seemed a good corridor but 14 years later, keeps seeming good corridor

Hope it runs


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Hallelujah!

Construction of these sections of A-32 was becoming a never-ending story! They were among the few suspended works during the May 2010 budget cuts whose construction had not been resumed yet.

Later I'll check which ones are still officially suspended.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

arctic_carlos said:


> Some pictures of A-14 between Lleida and Almenar (16 km), including both the old and the new sections:


This is a new sign on the section that opened in 2012. As of September 2016, this sign was installed:


A-14 Alguaire - Almenar-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

So Almenar has been removed and Toulouse and Alfarràs were added.

The removal of Almenar is remarkable, given that it is right next to this exit and also a sizable town with a population of 3,600 (even larger than Alfarràs, which is arguably a more important hub). 

The addition of both Alfarràs and Toulouse also suggests they don't plan for an extension of A-14 within the foreseeable future.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Yes, basically that's what the Minister announced yesterday. If A-14 is ever extended to Alfarràs, then Almenar will probably reappear on the signs.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-32*



ChrisZwolle said:


> Fomento has reactivated the works on three sections of A-32 in northeastern Andalusia:
> 
> http://www.europapress.es/andalucia...zobispo-finalizacion-2019-20170718135907.html
> 
> * Úbeda - Torreperogil (16,3 km)
> * Torreperogil - Villacarril (13,6 km)
> * Villacarril - Villanueva del Arzobispo (17,2 km)
> 
> It was announced earlier that these sections would be under construction in 2015, but evidently that did not come through. These sections (47.1 km) will be completed in 2019.
> 
> Úbeda - Torreperogil has seen the most works before they were ceased in 2010, they built a substantial amount of the embankment and 8 or 9 bridges that carry A-32 over other roads. Torreperogil - Villanueva del Arzobispo hasn't seen much more than some expropriation according to April 2016 imagery in Google Earth.


In addition we already have a brand-new press release from the Fomento guys. 

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...l-tramo-/a869abe8-0abc-430d-8cd3-9b1fdfdce6ba

To sum up the most important information:



MichiH said:


> *A32:* west of Ubeda – east of Torreperogil 16.3km (? to 2018) – ? – map


Works have been resumed. Opening in 2019. Total cost: €85.7 M.



MichiH said:


> *A32:* Torreperogil – Villacarrillo 15km (? to _suspended_) – ? – map


Works will be resumed next month. Opening in 2019. Total cost: €64 M.



MichiH said:


> *A32:* Villacarrillo – Villanueva del Arzobispo 19km (? to _suspended_) – ? – map


Works will be resumed next month. Opening in 2019. Total cost: €87 M.

Besides, the Minister announced that in 2018 they plan to tender the new Baeza interchange on the section of A-32 that opened in 2012 (Ibros - Úbeda). It's quite striking that this town didn't get its own access to the motorway, given it's listed as a UNESCO World Heritage site!


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## arctic_carlos

^^ http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...oyecto-y/8a010693-40f4-4c58-b401-d39182788a12

Sorry, I forgot before to link it.


----------



## CNGL

arctic_carlos said:


> Due to the construction of Mularroya reservoir on the river Grío, a new 6 km alignment for N-IIa is currently being built south of La Almunia de Doña Godina (province of Zaragoza), to replace the current road, which will be covered by water. It includes a 445 m impressive bridge over the future reservoir.
> 
> It's somehow curious to see this costly project for a road that only plays a secondary role since the opening of A-2.
> 
> Some pictures: http://www.ideam.es/?a=3&aa=2&project_id=362&project_category_id=11


I was about to say that, they are building a "new old" N-II near La Almunia de Doña Godina due to a new dam. My claim of having been to all national roads in Zaragoza province is thanks to the closure of that section of N-II, but that won't last long. Anyway I think they should have built A-2 on the alignment of the new road, instead of adding a fourth mountain pass (La Perdiz) to the three existing ones (Cavero, El Frasno, Morata).

Now I'm closer to clinch every national road in my province, after having taken N-230 all the way to Vielha (or _Viella_ in both Spanish and Catalan, the official name Vielha being Occitan) last Saturday. It's a nice crossing of the Pyrenees, however the the section between the tunnel and Vielha is still narrow.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*CV-245*

Just a random mountain pass in the Valencia back country. CV-245 across the Alto de Montmayor.


CV-245 Alto de Montmayor-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


CV-245 Alto de Montmayor-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

I was driving on CV-245 to Segorbe to find a supermarket bigger than a studio apartment and came across this roundabout, which serves 3 buildings and an unpaved road... According to Google Earth imagery, it was built in 2014 or 2015.


----------



## alserrod

CNGL said:


> I was about to say that, they are building a "new old" N-II near La Almunia de Doña Godina due to a new dam. My claim of having been to all national roads in Zaragoza province is thanks to the closure of that section of N-II, but that won't last long. Anyway I think they should have built A-2 on the alignment of the new road, instead of adding a fourth mountain pass (La Perdiz) to the three existing ones (Cavero, El Frasno, Morata).
> 
> Now I'm closer to clinch every national road in my province, after having taken N-230 all the way to Vielha (or _Viella_ in both Spanish and Catalan, the official name Vielha being Occitan) last Saturday. It's a nice crossing of the Pyrenees, however the the section between the tunnel and Vielha is still narrow.



A-2 (former motorway of Aragon N-II indeed) was finished in december 1991, Mularroya section was opened in 1993 though. 
There were a lot of accidents in that area. People didn't remember that it wasn't limited to 120 there....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Fomento has approved the awarding of six contracts for road construction, worth € 305 million.

http://fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPrensa/N...ación-de/d36b29c7-4d4e-4d23-be0f-ada0057272a1

* North access to the airport of Málaga
* A-22 Siétamo - Huesca
* A-21 Sigüés - Tiermas 
* N-338 duplication to the airport of Alicante
* V-21 expansion to six lanes (Carraixet - Valencia)
* A-33 N-344 to A-31 section at Caudete (second to last section of A-33)


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Fomento has approved the awarding of six contracts for road construction, worth € 305 million.
> 
> http://fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPrensa/N...ación-de/d36b29c7-4d4e-4d23-be0f-ada0057272a1
> 
> * A-22 Siétamo - Huesca


FINALLY! A-22 has been completed from Alpicat (near Lleida) to Sietamo for five years now. This is a eyesore of a gap, caused by NIMBYism* first and the financial crisis later.


ChrisZwolle said:


> * A-21 Sigüés - Tiermas


Nearby Yesa reservoir is being enlarged, and thus this section is needed since N-240 will get flooded. It's also a very twisty road.


ChrisZwolle said:


> * N-338 duplication to the airport of Alicante


This will be the double A road: AA-11 .

* Actually there was no opposition to A-22 motorway, but rather to the routing of it. Some wanted it further away from a town, others wanted it further away from a castle. In the end the latter won, but then the financial crisis hit.


----------



## Highway89

The refurbishment of the A-1 between Madrid and El Molar. It includes a bypass of the current A-1 between the R-2 and the Jarama circuit.

(From south to north)










































































Source: http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG...NO/PARTICIPACION_PUBLICA/EI-M-075/default.htm


----------



## arctic_carlos

The construction of several motorway sections has been tendered today by the Spanish government:

A-21: Tiermas - Sigüés (6.6 km)
A-22: Huesca - Siétamo (12.7 km)
A-33: Caudete - A31 (6.9 km)
Northern access to Málaga Airport (1.6 km)
Duplication of N-338 (access to Alicante Airport)


----------



## alserrod

Until I wouldn't see A-22 u/c, will not believe it!!!


----------



## arctic_carlos

arctic_carlos said:


> The construction of several motorway sections has been tendered today by the Spanish government:
> 
> A-21: Tiermas - Sigüés (6.6 km)
> A-22: Huesca - Siétamo (12.7 km)
> A-33: Caudete - A31 (6.9 km)
> Northern access to Málaga Airport (1.6 km)
> Duplication of N-338 (access to Alicante Airport)


Official press releases:

A-21: http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...ción-del/2ed3ae25-7ce4-40fe-887b-19d7d8e97171

A-22: http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...ción-del/d2f654a6-b4a2-43e7-ad22-6eeb760e035a

I couldn't find the one about A-33 on Fomento's website, but there's a press article with a map:

https://www.albaceteabierto.es/alba...amo-que-enlaza-la-a-31-con-la-a-33-en-caudete










As you can see, only the section between Caudete and A-31 has been tendered, so there's still a missing section between Yecla and Caudete (16 km). Hopefully it will be tendered later this year, so the whole A-33 can be under construction (some sections already completed) next year.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was browsing through Aragón again. I noticed A-222, a 90 kilometer north-south route from El Burgo de Ebro to Montalbán. I wonder why they built such a high-standard road, all but one village along the route have a population under 1,000 (some around 100 people). It bypasses all but one village and it seems to be a 100 km/h kind of road. It's a very sparsely populated area. In France or Portugal you'll surely won't get a road as good as this.


Have driven today on A-222 till Lecera (40 km) and a bit of traffic (main traffic was yesterday) and later, turn left to A-223.

Road is wide but tiny shoulders. Limited to 90 but very good route. Asphalt until Albalate is absoluuuuutely perfect. It is the fact in Aragon. You refurbish a road and it is enough to change asphalt every 10 years or so. In the meanwhile, some other main regional roads will be in the lost of years (for instance, Erla-Ayerbe have the same grade than these two ones...)


BTW, Albalate has a little overpass that avoids to cross over a tiny road between several houses. Nice one and doesn't appear in google maps


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Does anyone know where the Andalusian road numbering is based on? The A-xxx numbering in Aragón is clearly based on the old carretera comarcal network for the most part, but none of the A-xxx numbers in Andalusia match with former carreteras comarcales. 

Apparently they did try to avoid duplicate A-xxx numbers with Aragón, as the Andalusian A-xxx numbers are in a different range (300s and 400s, while Aragón is in the 100s and 200s). Though some A-xxx numbers have been floated for planned Castilla y León autovías which would conflict with those in Aragón and Andalusia. None of them have been built so far except for A-231.


----------



## Farnan

Answer: The main regional roads in Andalusia are numbered between A-300 and A-499. Historically, A-3XX roads are put in sector 3 and A-4XX roads in sector 4 but with the change of 2005 (that caused that almost all Andalusia roads are in green) they out A-40X roads and a few others in sector 3.

Note: Sector 3: between N-III and N-IV.
Sector 4: Between N-IV and N-V.
If there's no N-IV visible, the roads use the A-4 freeway (N-IV before 2004).

Castilla y Leon has other A-XXX freeways in their network (A-601 Valladolid-Segovia and A-610 Palencia-A62 (Burgos)). And yes, A-231 Alcañiz-Valdealgorfa-Catalonia/Aragon border was first.


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## CNGL

Same for Aragon, but only for "orange" roads. In this case they mostly follow the Plan Peña numbering, with notable exceptions being A-176, there's no way to put a 7 as the middle digit but was numbered to match Navarre; and A-131 which runs transverse to Madrid but got its number by truncating C-1310; A-202 and A-211 were formerly C-202 and C-211 respectively. And so does Alava, leading to several duplicated roads: A-124, A-126, A-132, A-2602 (the last one it's due to different numbering rules). Recently I played this composite image of both A-132s at km 19 facing downwards (kmpost-wise) in the Spanish edition of Guess the Highway, the top one is Alava's A-132, the bottom one is Aragon's:


----------



## adevahi

ChrisZwolle said:


> Apparently they did try to avoid duplicate A-xxx numbers with Aragón, as the Andalusian A-xxx numbers are in a different range (300s and 400s, while Aragón is in the 100s and 200s).


As Farnan said, is not about "trying to avoid duplications". Is mostly because of the sectors:










What I don't know and I wonder since I saw this picture is... what about the islands? Does the Balearic ones belong to sector 2 and the Canary islands belong to sector 4 (or 3 according with this map :lol? Or maybe they don't belong to any sector, considering that this was created when Spain had more overseas possessions far away.


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## CNGL

^^ Actually the boundaries were defined by the roads with roman numerals (N-I, N-II, N-III, N-IV, N-V and N-VI), not by these straight lines. For example there was C-260 in Girona province, which this map places in sector 1. The Balearic islands were sector 7, the Canary islands were sector 8 and the African possesions (Equatorial Guinea, Western Sahara, and the area around Ifni in Morocco) were sector 9, but I don't think any C-9xx roads were ever assigned.

Also, see how the 33x zone covered a lot of land, which meant a lot of C-33xx existed (up to C-3331!).


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## Highway89

^^ That map is wrong. Borders between sectors are defined by the 6 main national roads, not by straight lines.

The Balearic islands were the 7th sector and the Canaries the 8th.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

adevahi said:


> As Farnan said, is not about "trying to avoid duplications". Is mostly because of the sectors:


The sector numbering is clear to me. But the Andalusian carreteras autonómicas are not based on the former C-roads, despite being given numbers in the same range of 300-499. I wonder why they did that, and not simply attempted to re-use the old numbering of the carreteras comarcales like they did in Aragón. 

It seems to me that Andalusia just somewhat randomly renumbered the roads. It's also interesting that Andalusia has a relatively small network of 'red básica' routes, for example there is only one in the province of Almería (A-334).

Also, the Red Básica / Red Intercomarcal division appears somewhat arbitrary to me. Both have the same green A-xxx numbers and their importance also seems similar. Many routes of the Red Básica only connect small towns and have low traffic volumes. Some regions have no autonomous roads of the base network, for example there is not a single A-xxx part of the Red Básica north of A-4. For example, why is A-301 'Red Básica' and A-424 'Red Intercomarcal'?

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Red_de_Carreteras_de_Andalucía


----------



## alserrod

adevahi said:


> As Farnan said, is not about "trying to avoid duplications". Is mostly because of the sectors:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I don't know and I wonder since I saw this picture is... what about the islands? Does the Balearic ones belong to sector 2 and the Canary islands belong to sector 4 (or 3 according with this map :lol? Or maybe they don't belong to any sector, considering that this was created when Spain had more overseas possessions far away.





I read 7 for Balearic, 8 for Canary islands and 9 for African territories (never mind if in the North of Africa or Guinea).

Nowadays, all Balearic and Canary islands are managed by island government. Therefore, one or two letters depending of island. There are no national roads in Melilla, despite several "local" roads ML-XXX are managed by Fomento and two ones in Ceuta are N-3XX


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> The sector numbering is clear to me. But the Andalusian carreteras autonómicas are not based on the former C-roads, despite being given numbers in the same range of 300-499. *I wonder why they did that, and not simply attempted to re-use the old numbering of the carreteras comarcales like they did in Aragón. *


Probably because the 33 sector was quite big, so there were several four-digit _Comarcales _(C-33xx). I guess they wanted to use 3-digit road numbers only. However, that wouldn't explain why three-digit C- roads were also renumbered.



ChrisZwolle said:


> It seems to me that Andalusia just somewhat randomly renumbered the roads. It's also interesting that Andalusia has a relatively small network of 'red básica' routes, for example there is only one in the province of Almería (A-334).
> 
> Also, the Red Básica / Red Intercomarcal division appears somewhat arbitrary to me. Both have the same green A-xxx numbers and their importance also seems similar. Many routes of the Red Básica only connect small towns and have low traffic volumes. Some regions have no autonomous roads of the base network, for example there is not a single A-xxx part of the Red Básica north of A-4. For example, why is A-301 'Red Básica' and A-424 'Red Intercomarcal'?
> 
> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Red_de_Carreteras_de_Andalucía


Yes, it's quite weird:
A-301 -> Red básica
A-302 -> Red intercomarcal
A-303 -> Red intercomarcal
A-304 -> Red básica
A-305 -> Red intercomarcal
A-306 -> Red básica
A-307 -> Red básica
A-308 -> Red básica
A-309 -> Red básica
A-310 -> Red intercomarcal

I guess they put the numbers first, and then classified each road according to God-knows-what criteria.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Also an Andalusian exception seems to be the color coding. Almost all 3-digit carreteras autonómicas (both Red Básica and Red Intercomarcal) have green shields, except for three routes; A-316, A-318 and A-381. In other autonomous communities they have much more orange shields or equivalent. 

Evidently, these are separated based on the _Red Básica estructurante_ and _Red Básica de articulación_. But it seems weird to create a separate class for just 3 routes, with A-316 and A-318 planned to become the Autovía del Olivar.

The Spanish road numbering and classification pecularities are endless


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*CV-129*

CV-129 is a short east-west road in Castellón province. It runs in the Albocàsser area. It serves 480 vehicles per day. 

1. The 582 meter high Puerto de la Mirona. It is not signed.

CV-129 Albocasser-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. westbound view

CV-129 Albocasser-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. The Greenwich Meridian just west of Albocàsser.

CV-129 Albocasser-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

CV-129 Albocasser-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## alserrod

Stunning road will be going ahead of Villafranca. You will be in the middle of Maestrazgo hills. Cantavieja is 90 km to Alcañiz, Teruel and Castellón and, when needed in winter, ambulancies go to "easiest hospital". They should go to Teruel but they belong to Alcañiz due to direction Teruel there are five mountain passes in 90 km (reaching 1700m)... and sometimes road to Alcañiz is not good at all.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> CV-129 is a short east-west road in Castellón province. It runs in the Albocàsser area. It serves 480 vehicles per day.
> 
> 3. The Greenwich Meridian just west of Albocàsser.


I wonder if they have signed the International Reference Meridian (or "Berbegal Meridian" as I call it) or the actual Greenwich Meridian, which is sightly to the West. (Edit: it is the actual Greenwich Meridian, as the Google Street View link shows a sightly negative longitude coordinate at the sign)

BTW, immediately to the North is the Castellon II jail, just found it :lol:.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've noticed these prisons are quite well signed in Spain. Are they typically located near main roads? I've seen quite a number of 'centro penitenciario' signs along autovías. Some prisons appear to have a dedicated interchange. I don't recall seeing them signed so prominently in other countries. 

For example on A-7 near Valencia:

A7-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## alserrod

Janovas Medirian for me (N-260)


----------



## CNGL

I have another reference meridian, the Ariza Meridian which is defined by the railway station of that town in extreme Western Aragon. I've defined the Berbegal Meridian as the meridian passing through a road intersection located at 41° 57' 39", 2° 3' 34" (with respect to Ariza Meridian), which is just outside Berbegal in Huesca province and happens to lie right at the International Reference Meridian. 


ChrisZwolle said:


> I've noticed these prisons are quite well signed in Spain. Are they typically located near main roads? I've seen quite a number of 'centro penitenciario' signs along autovías. Some prisons appear to have a dedicated interchange. I don't recall seeing them signed so prominently in other countries.
> 
> For example on A-7 near Valencia:


Well, the trend of building prisons in the middle of nowhere near main roads is relatively recent. Before that, they were located inside the provincial capitals (like the Teruel one). For example, the Zuera prison, located barely in Zaragoza province, also a practical exclave as its access is from Huesca (exit 328 off A-23); replaced both the Zaragoza and Huesca ones.


----------



## Kanadzie

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've noticed these prisons are quite well signed in Spain. Are they typically located near main roads? I've seen quite a number of 'centro penitenciario' signs along autovías.* Some prisons appear to have a dedicated interchange*.r


Better for quick escaping :lol:


----------



## jdb.2

The prison probably has more inhabitants than the average village served by the Spanish autovia's.

Apparently it even has a golf terrain!
https://goo.gl/maps/2MWk7zKiJ552


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-54 Lugo - Santiago de Compostela*

The next section of A-54 was officially started today with a 'primera piedra' (first sod) for the 11.7 kilometer section between Palas de Rei and Melide. The complete cost (including planning, design and right of way acquisition) amounts to € 82 million (€ 7 million per kilometer). The deadline for the project is 51 months (4 years, 3 months) so a completion in October/November 2021.

http://fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPrensa/N...de-Rei--/9efeeecf-7848-4a2a-b602-0406a44ae7c5


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ The official press release includes this map showing the current situation of the different A-54 sections:










Dark blue: in service
Dotted dark blue: under construction
Light blue: start of construction
Yellow: tendering after the summer

Besides, during the official ceremony the Minister announced updated completion dates for other motorway sections currently under construction in Galicia:



MichiH said:


> *A54:* Lavacolla – Arzua-West 18.5km (? to 2018) – ? – map


October 2018.



MichiH said:


> *A56:* A Barrela-North (Estivada) – As Lamas (OU901) 8.8km (2008 to _suspended_) – project – map


October 2018.



MichiH said:


> *A57:* A Ermida – Vilaboa 6.5km (October 2015 to 2018/19) – ? – map


November 2018.

Source: http://www.eldiario.es/economia/Fomento-inicia-Palas-Rei-Melide-A-54_0_670883385.html


----------



## alserrod

jdb.2 said:


> The prison probably has more inhabitants than the average village served by the Spanish autovia's.
> 
> Apparently it even has a golf terrain!
> https://goo.gl/maps/2MWk7zKiJ552


Wrong place

That prison is here

https://www.google.be/maps/@41.9534895,-0.7031881,602m/data=!3m1!1e3

As you can see, it is inside Zuera municipality but A-23 exit is in Huesca province yet and have to make a U turn to reach there.

It has a 1.900 prisoners capacity and town is 8.000, one out of biggest in surroundings of Zaragoza.

In the same town, not far away, you have one "car delivery hub". This is, a lot of companies send by train cars to different plances in Spain to deliver into Spain and Portugal by truck since there. In the same town you have one of them

https://www.google.be/maps/@41.8760446,-0.7605168,628m/data=!3m1!1e3
(barely empty in the moment of picture but just calculate how many cars it can have at the same moment) and several manufacturing areas. It is not a desert. Not an urban space but not a desert at all.

Huesca-Zaragoza in A-23 has, slowly, slowly, growing with their towns and villages, despite other sides of the region come down.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

arctic_carlos said:


> Source: http://www.eldiario.es/economia/Fomento-inicia-Palas-Rei-Melide-A-54_0_670883385.html


They also mentioned Monforte de Lemos in that article. I took a look there on Google Earth and that town is served by high-standard roads in 5 directions; N-120, CG-2.1 and CG-2.2. These appear to be the old 'vía rápida' style highway, two-lane, but control of access through interchanges. 

But they are called a 'Vía de Altas Prestacións'. Is this a Galicia thing? I don't recall having seen that anywhere else on my trips to Spain so far. Galicia and La Rioja are the only autonomous communities on the mainland I haven't been to.


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> They also mentioned Monforte de Lemos in that article. I took a look there on Google Earth and that town is served by high-standard roads in 5 directions; N-120, CG-2.1 and CG-2.2. These appear to be the old 'vía rápida' style highway, two-lane, but control of access through interchanges.
> 
> But they are called a 'Vía de Altas Prestacións'. Is this a Galicia thing? I don't recall having seen that anywhere else on my trips to Spain so far. Galicia and La Rioja are the only autonomous communities on the mainland I haven't been to.


Due to historical reasons, Galicia has a particular kind of urbanism. There are thousands of hamlets spread out all over the region. From what I've read, the 1991 road plan of the Galician government proposed the construction of several "vías rápidas" throughout the region in order to allow faster trips by avoiding having to cross so many villages.

Many of these "vías rápidas" turned out to be quite dangerous roads. Some of them had to be transformed into "autovías" just a few years later. Here's an article (in Spanish): http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/opinion/2006/01/25/vias-rapidas-autovias/0003_4455418.htm

A Spanish association called Stop Accidentes has been since 2000 trying to eliminate the name "Vía Rápida" because they claim that it encourages people to drive faster. Eventually the name was changed to "Vía para automóviles" in the Spanish highway code.

If I'm not mistaken, in Galicia they changed from "Vía Rápida" (VG-) to "Corredor" (CG-), which sounds just as bad (correr = to run, to go quick). It seems that eventually they've chosen a more politically-correct name: "Vía de Altas Prestacións"


Also:


ChrisZwolle said:


> Galicia and La Rioja are the only autonomous communities on the mainland I haven't been to.


:colbert:


----------



## alserrod

OK Chris... you have a new spot to discover


https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4892...DMWMeM0NruKv_4CHCgAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


Road is in Navarra. Building in the left is Basque country, shires in the right are in Navarra.

Three regions in a picture. Easy to say to have crossed all of them.


In addition... should you want to discover La Rioja routes, avoid AP-68 (it will be compulsory but not main one). Try to go through A-12, to Soria via tunnel and over mountains near Iberian mountains. Quite stunning.

Here you are a random one

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.2327...R-kJgeOToxg-PuUyalFQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


(obviously, if you wanna make tourism at same time, there is a great deal of heritage in the region)


----------



## alserrod

In addition... have glanced and, on september 5th, Spanish cycling tour will cross exactly in that point

http://www.lavuelta.com/la-vuelta/2017/es/etapa-16.html


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Galicia and La Rioja are the only autonomous communities on the mainland I haven't been to.


For me they're Extremadura and Andalusia. Also overall, as I have been to both to the Balearics and the Canaries (the latter as a 5 year old child).

Anyway, as mentioned by alserrod Rioja is worth exploring. It's much more than wine. All its tripoints with other regions are reachable by car: The Castile and Leon/Basque Country/Rioja one is in the Ebro river, but is flanked by BU-725/LR-306, former C-122, on the left bank and by N-124 on the right one; the Navarre/Rioja/Basque Country one has been mentioned by alserrod (but he made a mistake: the road is in Rioja), and the Aragon/Navarre/Rioja and Aragon/Castile and Leon/Rioja ones are along N-113. Also mentioned by alserrod is N-111, a quite scenic road through Old Camero Valley.


----------



## Aokromes

alserrod said:


> OK Chris... you have a new spot to discover
> 
> 
> Road is in Navarra. Building in the left is Basque country, shires in the right are in Navarra.
> 
> Three regions in a picture. Easy to say to have crossed all of them.
> 
> In addition... should you want to discover La Rioja routes, avoid AP-68 (it will be compulsory but not main one). Try to go through A-12, to Soria via tunnel and over mountains near Iberian mountains. Quite stunning.
> 
> Here you are a random one
> 
> (obviously, if you wanna make tourism at same time, there is a great deal of heritage in the region)


"Oyon La Rioja"? And people wants to use google maps to fix boundaries?


----------



## CNGL

A quick update on these (nb: added dash to A–23 and flipped the sections to match kmposting):
*A–23:* Congosto de Isuela – Arguis 3km (2007 to March 2019) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
*A–23:* Alto de Monrepos – Caldearenas 3.9km (< 2009 to May 2019) – ? – map
*A–23:* Caldearenas – Lanave 12km (< 2009 to Spring 2018) – ? – map

They are working in all three sections. They have established two temporary detours, one where Arguis exit will be located and the other one atop the Monrepos pass, partly using the old C-136 road. In addition it seems they are working on another detour using the old road to bypass the second tunnel so they can renovate it, much like they did on the one down the road (in the Arguis–Monrepos "summit" [sic] section).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*CM-420*

What was the reasoning behind the 2007 transfer of N-420 to the Junta de Castilla-La Mancha? A 79 kilometer section of N-420 between Daimiel and Mota del Cuervo was transferred to the Junta.

I could guess that the Junta wanted to build an autovía along this alignment. CM-420 is one of the busiest main roads in Castilla-La Mancha. The lack of a 'competing' autovía on this corridor seems like an argument to keep it under control of Fomento. 

An 11.2 kilometer bypass of Alcázar de San Juan opened to traffic in 2011. But it was built with 7 roundabouts, not exactly the kind of intersection you would want on a corridor that is supposed to become an autovía. 

A similar issue was the transfer of N-320 from La Gineta to Cuenca to the Junta de Castilla-La Mancha. It is a major road with no competing autovía. 

A transfer of a road to a lower government seems most logical when a new infrastructure becomes available, rendering the old road of no national importance. But that was not the case with N-420 and N-320.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-23*



MichiH said:


> *A23:* Lanave – Caldearenas 12km (< 2009 to Spring 2018) – ? – map
> *A23:* Caldearenas – Alto de Monrepos 3.9km (< 2009 to May 2019) – ? – map


Works in the Monrepós pass are also advancing at a very good pace. Pictures from last month:




























More pictures can be found here: http://lasfotosdebeatrizbm.blogspot.com.es/2017/07/obras-en-el-puerto-de-monrepos-julio17.html


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## ChrisZwolle

Google Earth suggests a 540 meter altitude difference between the river valley and the Monrepós Pass over a distance of 6 kilometers (southbound, climbing). That would be a 9% grade on average!

Google Earth added imagery from July 2016, originally this area had only very low resolution base imagery (virtually useless).


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-11*

The Spanish government approved last week the projects of two new A-11 sections east of Valladolid:

- Olivares de Duero - Tudela de Duero (20.2 km). Estimated cost: €102.6 M.










http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...l-de-del/f8e380fc-2125-4952-a3ff-b57e89abd0f8

- Quintanilla de Arriba - Olivares de Duero (14.5 km). Estimated cost: €127.16 M.










http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...l-de-del/c2bb4c5a-c9e7-485f-a051-1084a9538c7e

The new motorway will be built far from current N-122, in order to avoid any impact on the renowned vineyards of the region (_Ribera del Duero_).


----------



## MichiH

arctic_carlos said:


> Besides, works are about to start on *A-12* between Burgos and Ibeas de Juarros (4.2 km, 45M€ - it includes in addition 3 km of connecting roads and flyovers at the interchange with A-1).
> 
> http://burgosconecta.es/2016/11/29/...to-de-obra-del-tramo-ibeas-burgos-de-la-a-12/


According to wikipedia, the status is still "Obras adjudicadas (pendiente inicio de obras)" which means "Works awarded (pending start of works)" according to Google Translate. Is there any news when construction works should start?



MichiH said:


> CNGL said:
> 
> 
> 
> and the duplication of N-338 near Alicante, that upon its completion will have yet another prefix: AA-11!
> 
> 
> 
> *AA11:* Los Picapiedra (A70) – Alicante-Airport (N332) ~4.5km (2016? to ?) – ? – map
> 
> Is the entire 4.5km section planned to be upgraded?
Click to expand...

Any news if this section is already u/c or when it is expected to be started?


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> According to wikipedia, the status is still "Obras adjudicadas (pendiente inicio de obras)" which means "Works awarded (pending start of works)" according to Google Translate. Is there any news when construction works should start?


No news yet. According to this press article from last April, construction works were supposed to start during this summer, but they must be still busy with the necessary expropriations. 

In any event, an official ceremony is usually held at the beginning of the construction works, so it's quite likely we'll get the usual press release from the Ministry, which I'll post here, of course. 



MichiH said:


> Any news if this section is already u/c or when it is expected to be started?


Construction works were tendered 2 weeks ago: http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...ción-del/1f68a065-d3e1-4e06-a5bc-9eb5ba354049

Therefore, construction will not likely start before 2018. According to the press release, the section is 4.75 km long and will have an estimated cost of €29.3 M.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Google Earth suggests a 540 meter altitude difference between the Guarga river valley and the Monrepós Pass over a distance of 6 kilometers (southbound, climbing). That would be a 9% grade on average!
> 
> Google Earth added imagery from July 2016, originally this area had only very low resolution base imagery (virtually useless).


Of note is that there's a section where traffic will be British style, i.e. on the wrong side. So the straight shot from near the summit is actually northbound. And it won't pass through the summit, as it will run across a 2.8 km long tunnel while southbound will still go up, and I don't know how they'll handle a situation where they have to close down the Monrepos pass due to a snowstorm like it happened in early March 2014.

BTW, as I've said several times Jaca will be closer to Huesca than Huesca to Jaca (by at least 3 km) :nuts:.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Aha, that will reduce the grade for uphill traffic. N-330 is quite steep. I filmed it in June, maybe I should make a video of it. 

The tunnel will not really reduce that much altitude compared to the Monrepós summit, but it will help reduce some of the steep grade by cutting through the mountain. The existing tunnels are only slightly lower than the summit.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Aha, that will reduce the grade for uphill traffic. N-330 is quite steep. I filmed it in June, maybe I should make a video of it.
> 
> The tunnel will not really reduce that much altitude compared to the Monrepós summit, but it will help reduce some of the steep grade by cutting through the mountain. The existing tunnels are only slightly lower than the summit.


Maybe not more than 50m

When it was really opened (middle 90ish), someone said it was a mistake... tunnels are usually made to cross mountains, not to reach mountain passes... and it is becase the altitude of former Monrepos pass... is the same one than nowadays. Different traject, but same summit.

Now they have made twice same mistake. First, a 1,5 km tunnel to approach summit (you will not cross summit direction Jaca), second, a 3 km tunnel to go down and avoid curves.

In addition, direction Jaca highest point, I think it will be.... in a little bridge!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ChrisZwolle

A base tunnel to cross the Monrepós Pass would need to be approximately 15 kilometers long. Traffic volume on A-23 doesn't have such great potential to justify an expenditure of that magnitude. 

The traffic volume on N-330 - which is a decent standard road - is only 6,500 vehicles per day. Many other countries wouldn't build a motorway for such traffic volumes, especially given the fact that N-330 is not a particularly bad road. It has wide curves, 3 lanes and no built-up areas.


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## alserrod

Maybe... and since a long time ago, a single tunnel 
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.3282...fVvY1JHpMHyGmja4tTow!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es
existed to reach summit. It is not easy to arrive there without it.

But the issue is... why they didn't build a first tunnel to approach summit and a second one to cross mountain instead of a second one to reach tunnel (this is... more or less what they are going to do now direction Huesca but with lower points)


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## ChrisZwolle

*Ma-13*

The Ma-13 six-laning on Mallorca has been completed. At a cost of only € 2.6 million, a 5.7 kilometer section of the autopista to Inca has been widened from four to six lanes, between the Ma-30 interchange and Marratxí.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Speaking of Mallorca: Ma-19 will be upgraded to motorway standards between Llucmajor and Campos (9 km). Construction works should start next year.

Source: http://www.diariodemallorca.es/part...da-derecha-suman-votos-autopista/1230456.html


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## pai nosso

*A-6 (Astorga » Ponferrada)* – July of 2017

1-


2-


3-


4-


5-


6-


7-


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## pai nosso

8-


9-


*(Ponferrada » Lugo)*

10-


11-


12-


13-


14-


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## pai nosso

15-


16-


17-


18-


19-


20-


21-


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## pai nosso

22-


23-


24-


25-


26-


27-


28-


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## pai nosso

29-


30-


31-


32-


33-


34-


35-


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## pai nosso

36-


38-


39-


40-


41-


42-


43-


44-


45-

Source: pai nosso


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## Highway89

The A-6 between Villafranca del Bierzo and Becerreá was one of the last stretches of "radial" (A-1 to A-6) to be opened to traffic, in the early 2000s. As can be seen in the photos, it was quite a difficult stretch, full of tunnels and viaducts. I even remember seeing adverts about its opening on the TV and in the newspapers.


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## ChrisZwolle

There was a large gap of A-6 by the time the other radiales were completed. Before 1997, the entire stretch from Benavente to Lugo was missing. It was opened in sections until the final section opened in 2002.


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## Highway89

I'm checking out the Spanish Wikipedia and there were also other stretches of "radial" that were opened in the 2000s: A-1 Altsasu-Idiazabal (18.2 km between 2002 and 2003) and the A-2 Cervera-Igualada (41.4 km between 2000 and 2004). I'm not counting stretches that had a parallel tolled motorway alternative. 

It's also worth pointing out that the A-52 (Vigo) and the A-31 (Alicante) were prioritized over the A-6 (Coruña) and the A-3 (Valencia). Although Madrid-Valencia could be done entirely on _autovía _via Almansa.


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## ChrisZwolle

Some things I like about the Spanish signage plans are its - sometimes elaborate - kilometers post and signs like this:

N-234 Viver by European Roads, on Flickr

Other countries don't post such signs. Usually it displays the name of the road, but N-234 has no name so it's just 'Carretera N-234'.


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## CNGL

^^ I know N-234 as Murviedro (i.e. Sagunto) to Burgos road. Simple as that. Although now it only makes sense from Calamocha, as South of there has been replaced by A-23.


Highway89 said:


> I'm checking out the Spanish Wikipedia and there were also other stretches of "radial" that were opened in the 2000s: A-1 Altsasu-Idiazabal (18.2 km between 2002 and 2003) and the A-2 Cervera-Igualada (41.4 km between 2000 and 2004). I'm not counting stretches that had a parallel tolled motorway alternative.
> 
> It's also worth pointing out that the A-52 (Vigo) and the A-31 (Alicante) were prioritized over the A-6 (Coruña) and the A-3 (Valencia). Although Madrid-Valencia could be done entirely on _autovía _via Almansa.


Don't forget several A-2 sections in Girona, and a A-4 section currently U/C South of Seville.


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## arctic_carlos

Highway89 said:


> I'm checking out the Spanish Wikipedia and there were also other stretches of "radial" that were opened in the 2000s: A-1 Altsasu-Idiazabal (18.2 km between 2002 and 2003) and the A-2 Cervera-Igualada (41.4 km between 2000 and 2004). I'm not counting stretches that had a parallel tolled motorway alternative.


Well, A-2 had AP-2 as an alternative for long-distance traffic, so although being an important route for internal traffic in Catalonia, it wasn't the first priority, given that Zaragoza - Barcelona could be done entirely via a tolled motorway.

As for A-1, I guess the detour via Bilbao (AP-68 + AP-8) was somehow an alternative. Completing A-1 was of course important, but maybe not as urgent as other motorways.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> There was a large gap of A-6 by the time the other radiales were completed. Before 1997, the entire stretch from Benavente to Lugo was missing. It was opened in sections until the final section opened in 2002.


In the A-5 there was another gap and A-2... you could consider that with AP-2+AP-7 there was a link or they need a different motorway. In this case, I remember driving those 1x1 60 km in year 2000


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some things I like about the Spanish signage plans are its - sometimes elaborate - kilometers post and signs like this:
> 
> N-234 Viver by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> Other countries don't post such signs. Usually it displays the name of the road, but N-234 has no name so it's just 'Carretera N-234'.




I would state that, after "State road network", they need to put "road" to enlarge the pannel


(btw, before A-23 I drove from Caminreal to Burgos at one time, longest journey I have done entirely in the N-234)


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## arctic_carlos

*V-21*

Construction works to widen V-21 to 2x3 between Carraixet and Valencia (4.8 km) were tendered yesterday (estimated cost: € 29 M). It's the only section of V-21 that is still 2x2. The remaining sections between Carraixet and Puçol (AP-7) were widened a few years ago.










http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...a-tres-V/3049ee86-97a3-4f1b-86b6-4c8149b2b795


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## ChrisZwolle

*N-330 / A-23 Puerto de Monrepós*



ChrisZwolle said:


> N-330 is quite steep. I filmed it in June, maybe I should make a video of it.


Here it is


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Autovía A-43*

Some photos of A-43, between Atalaya del Cañavate and San Clemente.


1. Typical landscape in Castilla-La Mancha; rolling plains.

A-43-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

A-43-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. Vara de Rey.

A-43-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. San Clemente-Norte.

A-43-9 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. km 154.

A-43-12 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. There is even a rest area with a fuel station.

A-43-13 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. San Clemente-Sur.

A-43-15 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. The AP-36 interchange. You can drive AP-36 untolled from here in the direction of Albacete. The toll station on AP-36 is just west of this interchange.

A-43-16 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. 

A-43-19 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## CNGL

They'll need to replace all kmposts and renumber every exit of A-43 if they ever build the Merida-Ciudad Real (Royal City? ) section, as currently its km 0 is placed at the latter (which is roughly halfway between Merida and Atalaya del Cañavate).


ChrisZwolle said:


> Here it is


I'm thinking of asking YouTube to take this down, it's my area and it's exclusive to me.

Jokes aside, the road at the very summit doesn't exist anymore. A detour is in place now.


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## alsama

Spain: N-330 and A-23 Huesca to Candanchu.


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## alserrod

Breaking news about A-23 works

Related to last post above, minute 12:00 or so, Arguis cross is down (bridge over little road to Arguis is down indeed), I guess because works for tunnel coming from Huesca.

It is easy to see where it will end there but no where it will start in the southborn. I guess that where a machine is set besides the road.

After the cross, direction north, motorway is a little shorter because these works, not so much.

No changes direction south except a detour in that point and limited to 60


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## arctic_carlos

*N-338*

Duplication of N-338 (access to Alicante Airport) between A-70 and N-332:










http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...de-en-el/638d70d9-d586-4e35-ac1f-cefd72f1a643


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## Reivajar

^^ From the Fomento press release, it doesn't say explicitly if it will be upgraded to _autovía_, just to dual carriageway. Will it be considered and renumbered as _autovía_ A-xx?


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## ChrisZwolle

N-roads (not counting Basque Country) can have autovía status. For example: N-322 near Albacete.


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## Reivajar

^^ Yes, nonetheless, I consider it kind of out of standard and good practice, which anyway is extremely common on Spanish road network numbering.


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## arctic_carlos

Reivajar said:


> ^^ From the Fomento press release, it doesn't say explicitly if it will be upgraded to _autovía_, just to dual carriageway. Will it be considered and renumbered as _autovía_ A-xx?


According to this post, it will be renumbered as AA-11, so we'll have yet another prefix in our network. :banana:


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## Reivajar

arctic_carlos said:


> According to this post, it will be renumbered as AA-11, so we'll have yet another prefix in our network. :banana:


No, please, stop... :lol::nuts:

And what's the meaning? Autovía Alicante? Autovía Aeropuerto? :lol:


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## arctic_carlos

^^ I guess it has something to do with Alicante. Given that the natural prefix for urban motorways in Alicante should be "A", and this one is already used by interurban motorways, a new prefix is needed ("AL" is reserved for Almería). 

So if they want to be strict, even A-70, A-77 and A-79 (other urban motorways in Alicante) should be renamed using the "AA" prefix, because currently they use the interurban "A" prefix.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> N-roads (not counting Basque Country) can have autovía status. For example: N-322 near Albacete.


There's also N-II near Zaragoza. The lack of blue signage along it is what makes me not to classify it as a motorway, instead constituting a rare example of an expressway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

alserrod said:


> In the first picture you can see a non paved path but good for cars.


It is actually paved. Not thet best condition, but paved. It is not paved beyond the scenic overlook, but that part is not open to motorized travel.



Suburbanist said:


> Is there any snow left in June at Picos de Europa?


Not when I was there last June, but 2017 was very hot early in the summer, I had 35°C in Potes. The Picos de Europa are very exposed to weather systems from the Atlantic (the north side is called the Costa Verde for a reason), so I'd guess this area gets lots of snow during the winter.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> It is actually paved. Not thet best condition, but paved. It is not paved beyond the scenic overlook, but that part is not open to motorized travel.


Have gone trekking there when kid (after overlook area). I remember that from that point I could take Santander radio FM despite distance!!!!!




> Not when I was there last June, but 2017 was very hot early in the summer, I had 35°C in Potes. The Picos de Europa are very exposed to weather systems from the Atlantic (the north side is called the Costa Verde for a reason), so I'd guess this area gets lots of snow during the winter.



Potes 300m osl
San Glorio 1609 osl and only 28 km away

Fuente De... 1100ish (I think) and much more with cable.

You can reach 2.000 m after cable and walking for a while and... see the Ocean in different directions!!!!!!!


----------



## CNGL

^^ Bitch, please. This weekend I picked up a radio station out of La Almunia de Doña Godina near the Aragon/Navarre border... along A-21! I've also picked up some stations out of Huesca just Northeast of Calatayud. But my personal record was picking up a radio station out of Tarragona somewhere in Central Aragon (and exactly at the frequency of a Zaragoza station, which was the one I expected to pick up).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I hardly ever listen to the radio anymore. I usually have a memory stick with music in the USB port. I don't know about Spain but in the Netherlands you have to keep up with a repetitive music selection from a narrow range of hits, with DJs who think they're so funny and great. FM frequencies are auctioned off so only the standard commercial stations can afford to broadcoast nationwide. So you get the same music over and over again with only the standard hits. Less commercial genres are not available on radio nationwide except for some tax-funded public radio stations.

I think the DAB+ transition has limited future, with in-car entertainment systems and greater data plans for 4G, everyone will stream music, radio and traffic information via Apple Carplay or Android Auto.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^To me, local media are part of the travel experience. That said, Europe really needs more decent rock stations. (The RTBF's "Classic21" isn't bad. Was able to listen to that as far south as Reims in the car.)


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## alserrod

Regarding to CNGL info, not far from his homecity (centre of here https://www.google.es/maps/place/Pi...d5734c1ed!8m2!3d42.2997983!4d-0.4020939?hl=es) there are a lot of antennas. They were built for Football World Cup in 1982 and remain in use. Due to they "look" forward south, in several sides it is easier to catch radio from there even than nearest station. For TV not so easy because they need more antennas and nearer.

I do not remember building new antennas in Spain but keeping current ones. The point is TV antennas... and at the same time they use for FM (There are only four AM radios in Spain)


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## arctic_carlos

*A-21*

Construction of the missing A-21 section between Tiermas and Sigüés (province of Zaragoza) was finally tendered yesterday. It's just 6.6 km long, but it's of great importance as it will connect two completed motorway sections, and because current N-240 is supposed to be covered by the Yesa Reservoir waters in the mid term.

It will have three tunnels and two viaducts:










http://www.fomento.es/MFOMBPrensa/N...-Tiermas/00bc13fd-b731-4d17-a25a-36572f03a5e4

Now there's only a single A-21 section left to be tendered. It's the 11 km section between the Zaragoza/Huesca boundary and Puente la Reina de Jaca. The remaining sections between Pamplona and Jaca are either tendered, under construction or open to traffic.


----------



## alserrod

¨They will be 77 km with continuity from Pamplona to near Berdun, full motorway 120 km/h

Later, a bit of road, still not started and later, expected for next year until Jaca


----------



## pai nosso

ChrisZwolle said:


> Puerto de San Glorio is a 1609 meter high mountain pass of N-621 in Northern Spain, on the border of Cantabria and Castilla y León. It is located in the Picos de Europa range.
> 
> 
> There is a side road which leads to a viewpoint over Picos de Europa
> 
> N-621 Puerto de San Glorio-4 by European Roads, on Flickr





Suburbanist said:


> I am planning going there next July




I made a road trip of one day all around the Picos da Europa Mountain Range and i loved but i only saw fog and rain...:mad2::lol: [on the Asturias and Cantabria region, sun on the Castille & Leon region:nuts::nuts::lol:]


Photos of my road trip on the SSC-Portugal


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ I know what you mean, I was driving on A-8 in June 2015, the entire route from Gijón to Bilbao had low-hanging clouds, I had no idea the scenery was so mountainous until I drove it this year.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ I know what you mean, I was driving on A-8 in June 2015, the entire route from Gijón to Bilbao had low-hanging clouds, I had no idea the scenery was so mountainous until I drove it this year.


It is the touristic area with less foreing people in Spain since it is raining all the year.

For Spaniards it is fine to choose even mountain, beaches, heritage, peaceful villages, (maybe the best in Spain) food, and green landscape.

I reckon that for someone who needs more than one day travel to approach, will prefer sandy dry and sunny beaches in Mediterranean... thus Atlantic is full of tourist but barely foreing.


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> It is the touristic area with less foreing people in Spain since it is raining all the year.
> 
> For Spaniards it is fine to choose even mountain, beaches, heritage, peaceful villages, (maybe the best in Spain) food, and green landscape.
> 
> I reckon that for someone who needs more than one day travel to approach, will prefer sandy dry and sunny beaches in Mediterranean... thus Atlantic is full of tourist but barely foreing.


How close is it to the Camino de Santiago - you know, the old pilgrimage route now used by many as a long-distance hiking trail (I'm not sure I have the name right)? I hear a lot about that and know people who've done it, so I'm surprised you'd say there aren't many foreigners up there.


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> How close is it to the Camino de Santiago - you know, the old pilgrimage route now used by many as a long-distance hiking trail (I'm not sure I have the name right)? I hear a lot about that and know people who've done it, so I'm surprised you'd say there aren't many foreigners up there.


Main routes are those that enters in Spain through Roncesvalles and Somport. They appear in four ancient books about pilgrimage










There are too many and, for instance, there is a branch in San Glorio and a person who worked in a tourism office said me that she was surprised about how many people requested her just to stamp their "passports" (you have a sort of passports and getting stamps here and there you will have a souvenir and will provide you have reached Santiago walking or by bike, compulsory to get official document of pilgrim).

Other secondary lanes to Santiago are northern and "Via de la Plata" (from Seville), but Portuguese or whatever are easy to find.

In the "main route", in N-120 approaching Burgos, Lane is besides road and in summer morning (never in evening) you can see many pilgrims, some of them alone, some of them in little groups but never more than 500 m from one to another.

In summer in Galice, some sides of Santiago Lane is "an avenue" about people walking there.


----------



## OBAuto

A video about CL-615 on the section between Palencia and Carrión de los Condes (A-231 connection roundabout). It's remarkable the 8.2 km straight section between Villoldo and Carrión de los Condes and the green line painted next to the road shoulder line which remembers that you are on a radar controlled section.





by OBAuto on YouTube


----------



## alserrod

I cannot see the video

They marked green lines one year ago or so, but indeed cameras are only 15ish km. away after Carrion roundabout with A-231 (hint, perfect place to stop and change driver, to re-fuel in petrol station or so... therefore, will never overpass radar there)

There are two long and straight over roads controlled in the area. People used to drive strongly faster and nowadays they are more careful.

By the way, driving to north, you can see away mountainscape and seeing how you are approaching.
Quite scenic being in the middle of Meseta but moutains ahead


----------



## alserrod

Had google but street view has 2014 images, before that radar

First camera is, more or less, here

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.3517...A5GQ_2vOQD_5VjsbURSQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


----------



## OBAuto

^^ In this section there are only three cameras:

1 - Almost under A-65 bridge after passing CL-613 and CL-615 interchange roundabout.
2 - Villoldo's gas station straight some meters southbound with the gas station as reference.
3 - Carrión de los Condes entrace just before the first roundabout towards Guardo. 

People usually ran about 120 km/h because the road is almost straight with little curves and nicely made crossings, exits and entrances. Now is easy to know who comes from previous camera section or not, because the people who exits from intermediate villages still running about 120 km/h while others run about 90-100 km/h. Biggest crashes on this road always happened on the crossings, almost never due to overspeeding. I think the only reason for installing this section radars is to increase public earnings.


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## Highway89

Penn's Woods said:


> How close is it to the Camino de Santiago - you know, the old pilgrimage route now used by many as a long-distance hiking trail (I'm not sure I have the name right)? I hear a lot about that and know people who've done it, so I'm surprised you'd say there aren't many foreigners up there.


I live in Logroño and I usually go for a stroll or bike ride to a nearby lake. The road happens to be part of the Camino Francés, the most popular route, so I've had the chance to notice how the route has evolved througout the years. Every year I see more and more foreign pilgrims, especially Brazilians, Japanese, Koreans and North Americans. According to some sources, 278k pilgrims sealed its passport in Santiago in 2016, 55% of which were foreigners. Still nothing compared to the Mediterranean coast of Spain or the islands.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Highway89 said:


> I live in Logroño and I usually go for a stroll or bike ride to a nearby lake. The road happens to be part of the Camino Francés, the most popular route, so I've had the chance to notice how the route has evolved througout the years. Every year I see more and more foreign pilgrims, especially Brazilians, Japanese, Koreans and North Americans. According to some sources, 278k pilgrims sealed its passport in Santiago in 2016, 55% of which were foreigners. Still nothing compared to the Mediterranean coast of Spain or the islands.




I didn't realize there were so many versions of the route. I do have a friend who started at Oviedo; I told him that was "so far west it's cheating."


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Yeah the route along the northern coast is less crowded than the traditional one, the so-called "camino francés" (via Logroño, Burgos and León).


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> * VF-TE-02: according to the Aragón road map, it runs from TE-V-6006 to Torrijas or even the Valencia border. It is a gravel road past the Javalambre ski area, which requires a 4x4.


I guess VF stands for Vía Forestal? I wonder if they even put kilometer markers for forest tracks. 

Also, was it Javalambre or Valdelinares that you park on the _summit_, ski down the mountain and get on the chairlift to get back up?



Reivajar said:


> Really? Is that motorway useful for any rational reason?


Has that ever been a problem? :troll:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-33 Jumilla - Yecla*

A-33 Jumilla - Yecla will open 'in the next few days'.

El presidente Fernando López Miras anunció hoy, durante la inauguración de la 56 edición de la Feria del Mueble de Yecla, que el tramo de la autovía A-33 que conecta Jumilla con Yecla “abrirá al tráfico en los próximos días, respondiendo así, con hechos, a un compromiso que habíamos adquirido, y adelantándonos un año a la fecha prevista de finalización de las obras”.​
https://www.carm.es/web/pagina?IDCONTENIDO=93326&IDTIPO=10&RASTRO=c$m122,70


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Highway89 said:


> I guess VF stands for Vía Forestal? I wonder if they even put kilometer markers for forest tracks.


That would be my guess. The road is not really suitable for regular cars or maybe even SUVs past the ski area. It's a gravel road with large rocks and deep ruts. Only heavy duty trucks and 4x4 seemed to use it. I'm not even sure if it is open to the general public.



Highway89 said:


> Also, was it Javalambre or Valdelinares that you park on the _summit_, ski down the mountain and get on the chairlift to get back up?


There are two stations at Javalambre, close to the summit and one farther down in the valley. TE-34 connects both, it appears to have been paved rather recently. 

What kind of road is TE-34? I couldn't find any kilometer markers on Street View but it seems a fairly high-standard road for the average traffic. TE-34 is not listed in the Aragón road catalogue (nor is any two-digit TE-route). Is it provincial? And why is it then not a TE-V-xxxx number?


----------



## Suburbanist

Is the Canyon de Añysclo permanently closed to traffic? I am finding conflicting information online. That was one of the most fun and scenic drives I ever did.


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> What kind of road is TE-34? I couldn't find any kilometer markers on Street View but it seems a fairly high-standard road for the average traffic. TE-34 is not listed in the Aragón road catalogue (nor is any two-digit TE-route). Is it provincial? And why is it then not a TE-V-xxxx number?


It's provincial, according to the Spanish wikipedia: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Red_de_carreteras_de_Aragón

Also, all I've been able to find about provincial roads in Teruel is this piece of news: https://www.dpteruel.es/DPTweb/la-d...vinciales-2017-2019-dotado-10-millones-euros/

Some road numbers are mentioned, but only TE-V-XXXX. Whenever the road number is not mentioned, it seems to be a TE-XX road. For instance:


> 5.- Refuerzo firme ctra. De Molinos a la N-211 300.000 euros


^^This is actually the TE-41.


----------



## CNGL

^^ I wrote about that and a few other provincial roads that are going to be renovated in the Aragonese forums (in Spanish, of course): http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=142347713&postcount=9095. Among the roads included is also TE-44, which Google Maps has very wrongly as CV-175 (which obviously ends at the regional border between Villahermosa del Rio and Puertomingalvo).


ChrisZwolle said:


> That would be my guess. The road is not really suitable for regular cars or maybe even SUVs past the ski area. It's a gravel road with large rocks and deep ruts. Only heavy duty trucks and 4x4 seemed to use it. I'm not even sure if it is open to the general public.
> 
> There are two stations at Javalambre, close to the summit and one farther down in the valley. TE-34 connects both, it appears to have been paved rather recently.
> 
> What kind of road is TE-34? I couldn't find any kilometer markers on Street View but it seems a fairly high-standard road for the average traffic. TE-34 is not listed in the Aragón road catalogue (nor is any two-digit TE-route). Is it provincial? And why is it then not a TE-V-xxxx number?


Both TE-V-xxxx and TE-xx are provincial roads. I believe TE-xx roads are previously unpaved roads and thus did not receive a TE-V-xxxx back in the day.


Suburbanist said:


> Is the Canyon de Añysclo permanently closed to traffic? I am finding conflicting information online. That was one of the most fun and scenic drives I ever did.


It appears so, due to rockslide risk.


Highway89 said:


> I guess VF stands for Vía Forestal? I wonder if they even put kilometer markers for forest tracks.
> 
> Also, was it Javalambre or Valdelinares that you park on the _summit_, ski down the mountain and get on the chairlift to get back up?


Yup, _Via Forestal_. They appear to be managed by the regional government since parts of two of them have since become part of A-2520 and A-2705 respectively and they weren't transferred from Teruel province, but not by the Territorial backboning*, Movility and Housing department (which is in charge of all A-xxx and A-xxxx roads). Also, per the old map I have it appears VF-TE-02 splits at the Javalambre summit, with one branch heading to Torrijas and the other to Arcos de las Salinas :nuts:.

The ski area in which one parks atop it and skies down is Valdelinares, BTW.

* Or whatever word _vertebración_ translates to.


----------



## alserrod

Strongly amazing that video.

First of all... southernmost eastern ski resort?
No....

Providing mainland Spain centre is in Getafe near A-4 (not in Madrid as many people guess but in Getafe), Sierra Nevada is eastern side thus... southernmost.

But in that area it is, indeed. There is another ski resort not far from there, and it was considered as a ski resort in 1995 despite it was already used for skiing.


About road, I went a long time ago in summer, drove through after parking (no cars ahead) and kept toward summit (2019m, by one mettre, second peak in province).

I reached in a "quarter-paved" path until near the summit and walked for several metres.

Teruel take main infrastructure for TV, radio and all communication in that mountain. Depending of your position you could have strong mobile service or nothing since distance to your company antenna could be longest or shortest (and other services around).

There is a family that it is payed to live there all the year and solve any problem for TV and so. Maybe no problems in a week, maybe a lot of work in the same day.
You have to cross (absolutely, with a chairlift above you) a red ski track to arrive there and that family is prepared to live isolated if strong snow when winter.

Not far from there, in "Pico del Buitre" (Vulture peak) threre is an astronomy observatory.

Little SSC thread
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1617029

And I guess that a small picture spotted by me five years ago is the only picture taken by a forumer here.

Despite tiny distance, best way to approach observatory is from Torrijas. No problem with a single car even if unpaved (except if snowed or rain)... but that area claim for a direct road to ski resort!!.





ChrisZwolle said:


> I filmed road A-2520 to the Javalambre ski area in Teruel province.
> 
> I think it's the southernmost ski area in eastern Spain. There is another ski area at Valdelinares in southern Teruel province.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The numbering of A-2520 is interesting. Various sources attribute the numbers TE-620, TE-V-6006 or VF-TE-02 to parts of the route.
> 
> * TE-620: according to Google Maps it runs for 12 km from La Puebla de Valverde to TE-V-6006 to Camarena de la Sierra. According to the official road log, it runs only 2 km between La Puebla de Valverde and the train station
> 
> * TE-V-6006: according to the Aragón road map, it runs from La Puebla de Valverde to Camarena de la Sierra. It is not listed in the Aragón autonomous road catalogue, I suspect this route number would be owned by the province of Teruel?
> 
> * VF-TE-02: according to the Aragón road map, it runs from TE-V-6006 to Torrijas or even the Valencia border. It is a gravel road past the Javalambre ski area, which requires a 4x4.
> 
> * A-2520: there are kilometer markers from at least km 3-20 posted, all the way to the Javalambre ski area. Google Maps, the official road map and the Aragón road catalogue do not list this number.
> 
> So it seems like A-2520 is newly introduced road number. Google Street View shows both TE-620 and TE-V-6006 being posted along the route.


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## arctic_carlos

Reivajar said:


> Really? Is that motorway useful for any rational reason?


As most of you know, in Spain the dream of every politician _from the provinces_ is to have its capital connected to Madrid with a motorway and a HSL. Ciudad Real has its HSL since 1992, but surprisingly it doesn't have any direct motorway connection with Madrid. 

Of course A-43 + A-4 is a valid alternative, but not enough for those who claim a motorway on the most direct route, which currently is N-401. At least only a Ciudad Real - Consuegra motorway is planned, instead of a 100% new motorway between Ciudad Real and Toledo.


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## alserrod

Madrid-Ciudad Real

Direct way through Toledo (and obviously UNtolled motorway): 186 km

Via A-4 and turning at Puerto Lapice to Daimiel: 206 km
With 25-30 km you can join these cities and full motorway.


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## Reivajar

^^ Yes, for sure is a non-sense.

Even the motorway proposed between Ciudad Real and Consuegra is a whole piece of nonsense. You affect the natural area around Montes de Toledo, and you get closer to the route via Puerto Lápice... At this point, if they want a motorway, upgrading the CM-420 to Puerto Lápice should be more than enough. 









Source
I guess the red line is the motorway to Consuegra arctic_carlos mentioned.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Building a motorway between Daimiel and Puerto Lápice (30 km) would indeed make sense for traffic between Madrid and Ciudad Real, but it wouldn't be attractive for traffic between Toledo and Ciudad Real, which would still use N-401 (118 km vs. 153 km).

They route they have selected for a new motorway between Ciudad Real and Consuegra via Malagón and Urda (71 km) may seem a little redundant, but is useful for both Madrid - Ciudad Real and Toledo - Ciudad Real traffic. Who knows if it will ever get built.


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## alserrod

Toledo-Ciudad Real hasn't enough traffic. Providing all traffic is between both cities (not from Madrid), enough with bypasses. Road is fine and it is not most important point for Ciudad Real.

They should ask for a link from Puertollano to Merida, forgotten since more than a decade ago!! (and direct route Valencia-Lisbon)


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## Suburbanist

alserrod said:


> Toledo-Ciudad Real hasn't enough traffic. Providing all traffic is between both cities (not from Madrid), enough with bypasses. Road is fine and it is not most important point for Ciudad Real.
> 
> They should ask for a link from Puertollano to Merida, forgotten since more than a decade ago!! (and direct route Valencia-Lisbon)


That is indeed a major gap, like Cuenca -teruel


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## KRX_69

*Sevilla - Jaén (12.09.2017)*

*A4*

01.

A4 - saída Brenes by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

02.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

03.

A4 - saída SE-40 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

04.

A4 - saída Brenes by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

05.

A4 - saída Carmona by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

06.

A4 - saída Carmona by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

07.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

08.

A4 - saída Carmona by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

09.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

10.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

11.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

12.

A4 - saída La Campana by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

13.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

14.

A4 - saída La Luisiana by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

15.

A4 - saída La Luisiana by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

16.

A4 - saída Villanueva del Rey by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

17.

A4 - saída Marchena by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

18.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

19.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

20.

A4 - saída Ecija by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


----------



## KRX_69

21.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

22.

A4 - saída Ecija by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

23.

A4 - saída Cerro Perea by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

24.

A4 - saída Montilla by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

25.

A4 - saída Los Algarbes by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

26.

A4 - saída La Carlota by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

27.

A4 - saída La Carlota by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

28.

A4 - saída El Arrecife by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

29.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

30.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

31.

A4 - saída N331 Málaga by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

32.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

33.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

34.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

35.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

36.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

37.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

38.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

39.

A4 - saída CO-32 Córdoba oeste by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

40.

A4 - saída CO-32 Córdoba oeste by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

41.

A4 - saída Córdoba by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


----------



## KRX_69

42.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

43.

A4 - saída Córdoba by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

44.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

45.

A4 - saída centro histórico by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

46.

A4 - saída Córdoba by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

47.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

48.

A4 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

49.

A4 - saída A306 Jaén by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A306*

50.

A306 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

51.

A306 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

52.

A306 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

53.

A306 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

54.

A306 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

55.

A306 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

56.

A306 - Cañete de las Torres by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

57.

A306 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

58.

A306 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

59.

A306 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

60.

A306 - Porcuna by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


----------



## KRX_69

61.

A306 - Porcuna by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

62.

A306 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

63.

A306 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

64.

A306 - Higuera de Calatrava by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

65.

A306 - Escañuela by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

66.

A306 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

67.

A306 - Santiago de Calatrava by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

68.

A306 - Torredonjimeno by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

69.

A306 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A316*

70.

A316 - saída Alcaudete by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


----------



## KRX_69

71.

A316 - saída Torredonjimeno by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

72.

A316 - saída Torredonjimeno by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

73.

A316 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

74.

A316 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

75.

A316 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

76.

A316 - saída Torredonjimeno by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

77.

A316 - saída Torredelcampo by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

78.

A316 - saída Torredelcampo by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

79.

A316 - saída Torredelcampo by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

80.

A316 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

81.

A316 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

82.

A316 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

83.

A316 - saída Jaén centro by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

84.

A316 - saída Jaén centro by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

85.

A311 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

:cheers:


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> That is indeed a major gap, like Cuenca -teruel


I agree with both cases


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## Reivajar

Yes, I would say the current exchanges between Toledo and Ciudad Real are well served by a road which in many sections allows speeds up to 100 km/h. It has modern bypasses and tunnels. There are still some urban areas when crossing some towns, but it could be improved easily by new bypasses.


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## Penn's Woods

KRX_69 said:


> 71.
> ....
> :cheers:


So unlike what I think of as typically European. Wide open spaces and all.


----------



## Reivajar

Penn's Woods said:


> So unlike what I think of as typically European. Wide open spaces and all.


Yes, in many areas of Spain you can find landscapes closer to what you may expect in Texas, some areas of California, Arizona, Utah and in general areas close to the Rockies. Not exactly what you may expect to find in PA or on the East Coast. Anyway, it can be pretty diverse even within the Iberian Peninsula, not only open spaces.


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## alserrod

Let me copy a post I made about a route in Monegros desert, not far from my homecity and a movie recording one week later...


Is it Texas?, no... it is Aragón, 



alserrod said:


> En uno de mis últimos post sobre los Monegros hablaba de la ruta de Jubierre
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hoy sale que es escenario de rodaje de película
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.heraldo.es/noticias/ocio...gar-rodaje-pelicula-miau-1196128-1361024.html


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## Highway89

The landscape around Teruel is also quite [US] Western-looking, especially the badlands.


RAMBLA VALDECIERVOS. by Juan Joaquin Marques Garzarán, en Flickr


Rambla de Barrachina-19 by Sergio Romeo, en Flickr




I remember a TV program about foreigners living in each region of Spain. In the one about La Rioja, they interviewed a photographer from Oregon. She said that the landscape reminded her of Eastern Oregon and Washington.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Someone commented on my Javalambre video how it looked similar to Eastern Oregon


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Someone commented on my Javalambre video how it looked similar to Eastern Oregon


But only HERE
https://www.google.es/maps/@40.3191...X8yCS8g87C4kkrBrE_Yw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

quite near to Teruel city


More about the area... there are two ski resorts (nowadays, partially from Aragon Government, at first, they belonged to the same company which was bought)

The second one is here
https://www.google.es/maps/@40.388106,-0.6389827,2402m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es

and it could be the only ski resort where first going down is free.... why?. Because you have to park ATOP, take skies to go down and take lift to get back (instead of parking on base, getting a lift and going down skiing).

Car park is in a mountain pass... which will be 1990m osl (and strongly near, highest peak in the province: 2020, one metter more than Javalambre). It is quite weird because in these hills you start going up, up and up and do not notice you took so much high until you see a pannel.... and best path between two villages is through summit. There aren't valleys nor mountain passes there!!!!!!

https://www.google.es/maps/@40.388106,-0.6389827,2402m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*C-12 Balaguer*

Construction on the second phase of the western bypass of Balaguer (Lleida province) will start on 28 September. It is a 2 kilometer section that will cost € 3.6 million. This way through traffic on C-12 can entirely bypass Balaguer. The first phase opened to traffic in 2005.

https://www.segre.com/noticies/coma...es_variant_nord_oest_balaguer_28938_1091.html

I spent a late summer vacation in Balaguer last year. The current C-12 through the city is not ideal, it is partially a one-way street. Though the amount of through traffic is low, according to a 2015 traffic count, the AADT was only 1,900 north of Balaguer, of which a portion will have an origin or destination in Balaguer because it is the only town with services and shopping in the region.


----------



## alserrod

Crossed Balaguer through C-26 (coming from norht, going to west) and I thought I would find urban area but barely houses in that part of town.

It is weird how some roads join


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-33*

The section between Jumilla and Yecla, whose opening was yesterday announced for the coming days, is apparently completed since last Thursday, but they're still waiting until the Minister of _Fomento_ has a free spot in his agenda to come and open it. They say that won't happen before next week, given the particular political circumstances of the moment.

Meanwhile, some pictures: 





































Source: http://www.elperiodicodeyecla.com/la-autovia-yecla-jumilla-esta-terminada/


----------



## Penn's Woods

Reivajar said:


> Yes, in many areas of Spain you can find landscapes closer to what you may expect in Texas, some areas of California, Arizona, Utah and in general areas close to the Rockies. Not exactly what you may expect to find in PA or on the East Coast. Anyway, it can be pretty diverse even within the Iberian Peninsula, not only open spaces.


I've never been to Spain. Unfortunately.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Spain has a very diverse geography, perhaps the most diverse of any country in Europe. You can find deserts, lush green forests, high mountain ranges, endless plains, major river valleys, canyons, long beaches, rocky coastlines with cliffs, major urban areas, ghost towns, etc.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An article by the Voz de Asturias about 2+1 roads. They claim the first one in Spain was built in 'Gerona' (the province I presume), but they show a caption of that under a photo that was taken in Sweden.

https://www.lavozdeasturias.es/noti...rreteras-perdonan/00031506319865518158476.htm

So where is the first 2+1 road in Spain located? We're talking about alternating passing lanes, not climbing lanes on hills (as for example on N-II around Girona).


----------



## ajch

Not sure about the first, but 2+1 is a type of road that i have only seen in Galicia (two times)

First I did, was the CG-1.5 west of Santiago, and clearly you can see that is designed to be transformed into a motorway in the future.
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.8141142,-8.7766115,615m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

The other was the N-120 east of A Rua, until near of the border with Leon. This was a surprise because it allowed me to go all the route at 100 km/h.
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4518481,-6.9303945,484a,35y,5.59t/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en


----------



## Vignole

ChrisZwolle said:


> An article by the Voz de Asturias about 2+1 roads. They claim the first one in Spain was built in 'Gerona' (the province I presume), but they show a caption of that under a photo that was taken in Sweden.
> 
> https://www.lavozdeasturias.es/noti...rreteras-perdonan/00031506319865518158476.htm
> 
> So where is the first 2+1 road in Spain located? We're talking about alternating passing lanes, not climbing lanes on hills (as for example on N-II around Girona).


First ones are C-55 and C-58 in Catalonia.



https://goo.gl/maps/Zz8ykzhh2V62
https://goo.gl/maps/zjjxJA2u8Nn
https://goo.gl/maps/wRBYXAnQuiN2


----------



## CNGL

I know another 2+1 road: N-121-A in Navarre.

Anyway, I came here to show the shortest road in Aragon: HU-301. It starts at the intersection with HU-300 (which at this point becomes an unclassified road, both are slated to become A-2201 in the future), crosses the Huesca-Canfranc railway at a level crossing and then becomes HU-V-3011. Its length is only 50 meters: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4408...4!1snyYBxu43BpECN7aRO2ge3g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


ChrisZwolle said:


> Someone commented on my Javalambre video how it looked similar to Eastern Oregon


And Aragon and Oregon sound similar. There is even a program in the regional TV channel called Oregon TV (itself a play on the channel's name, Aragon TV).


----------



## Highway89

I'm not sure if the N-121-A, or the _Vías Rápidas_ (or whichever politically-correct name they have now) count as 2+1 roads. One of the main advantages of a 2+1 road, according to the article, is that head-on collisions are avoided. Therefore they should have some kind barrier separating both directions (but not just plastic poles, which seem to be more common in Portugal). Also, some 2+1 roads in Sweden have at-grade intersections.

The roads posted by *Vignole* are indeed better examples, even though they are 1+1 at some points. Also, they seem to have some direct accesses, so they wouldn't qualify as Vía Rápida.

BTW, I've noticed that the crashbarrier in the first two links provided by Vignole lacks the motorcyclist protection barrier "covering" the pillars. Maybe it's just because the photos were taken before they were installed? Swedish 2+1 seem to have cable barriers, something I judge impossible here.


On a completely unrelated note, the works for the repavement of the LO-20 A-13 and A-12 around Logroño start today. The cost is about €4M and the works are expected to last 10 months: http://www.larioja.com/logrono/obras-mejora-firme-20170926181612-nt.html


----------



## verreme

^^ Crashbarriers in that road do have protection for motorcyclists, but only in bends.

It's indeed the first "proper" Swedish-style 2+1 road in Spain (with a physical divider, but no access restriction). BTW, it's in Barcelona province, not Girona. There are lots of climbing lanes in Spain, but that's another concept.


----------



## Highway89

verreme said:


> ^^ Crashbarriers in that road do have protection for motorcyclists, but only in bends.


That makes sense. I had seen the protection only in some stretches so I thought they had yet to set up the rest.




verreme said:


> It's indeed the first "proper" Swedish-style 2+1 road in Spain (with a physical divider, but no access restriction). BTW, it's in Barcelona province, not Girona. There are lots of climbing lanes in Spain, but that's another concept.


Yep, I'm reading the report and it mentions the C-55 between Castellbell and Manresa (page 45).



> Asimismo, se deben descartar aquellos tramos en los que ya ha sido aplicada la solución, como el tramo de la C-55 entre Castellbell y Manresa (pK 18 al pK 27).


The whole PDF can be downloaded here, where it says "Descarga Informe “Seguridad en carreteras convencionales: un reto prioritario de cara al 2020”": http://seopan.es/seguridad-carreteras-convencionales-reto-prioritario-cara-al-2020/

The photo of the Swedish 2+1 appears on page 47. Apparently the journalist who wrote the article just copied the photo (and didn't even bother to check out where Castellbell and Manresa actually are).


On page 48, there's a table comparing different features of 2+1 roads in Europe:










Translation:
Speed limit
AADT
Length of passing lane
Lane width
Shoulder width
Length of critical transition zone (?)
Length out of critical transition zone (?)
Type of separation

This is the list of the roads they suggest that should be converted into 2+1.



Code:


CC.AA Provincia Carretera Longitud del tramo Pkinicio Pkfinal IP
Asturias Asturias AS-19 7,000 10,700 17,700 7,28
Cataluña Barcelona B-140 5,300 0,000 5,300 20,16
Cataluña Tarragona C-31 5,253 135,283 140,536 8,77
Cataluña Barcelona C-31 12,822 165,000 177,822 6,84
Cataluña Gerona C-35 5,708 61,985 67,693 14,01
Cataluña Barcelona C-55 8,930 18,870 27,800 7,38
Cataluña Lérida C-55 9,900 50,100 60,000 9,20
Cataluña Lérida C-55 5,345 60,000 65,345 12,02
Cataluña Barcelona C-58 14,233 25,008 39,241 11,92
Cataluña Gerona C-66 10,500 42,300 52,800 9,92
Madrid Madrid M-100 7,600 15,400 23,000 9,28
Madrid Madrid M-501 7,700 42,850 50,550 14,91
Madrid Madrid M-505 15,250 12,700 27,950 7,66
Madrid Madrid M-505 9,390 38,000 47,390 9,73
Madrid Madrid M-600 7,700 1,000 8,700 7,97
Madrid Madrid M-608 7,700 0,000 7,700 6,66
Madrid Madrid M-608 7,300 7,700 15,000 13,83
Castilla León Burgos N-1 14,050 249,880 263,930 9,23
País Vasco Álava N-124 7,230 31,420 38,650 11,02
Valencia Valencia N-332 5,210 220,850 226,060 10,79
Valencia Valencia N-332 9,970 236,960 246,930 13,30
Andalucía Cádiz N-340 6,680 10,290 16,970 11,41
Andalucía Granada N-340 18,560 335,540 354,100 7,45
Valencia Alicante N-340 6,910 678,780 685,690 7,82
Valencia Valencia N-340 9,950 827,300 837,250 37,77
Cataluña Tarragona N-340 10,170 1097,920 1108,090 7,08
Andalucía Sevilla N-4 6,060 579,380 585,440 10,55
Andalucía Sevilla N-4 9,640 585,440 595,080 9,18
Andalucía Cádiz N-4 11,970 615,900 627,870 6,66
Galicia Pontevedra N-550 12,200 84,400 96,600 9,12
Galicia Pontevedra N-550 7,840 108,040 115,880 9,89
Navarra Navarra PA-30 5,780 3,620 9,400 7,19


I also found this presentation (PDF) from 2015 by Ferran Camps Roqué about the new 2+1 in Catalonia.

Four stretches (in red) were under construction in 2015. The others (in green) were under study.
C-55 Castellbell-Manresa
C-58 Viladecavalls-Vacarisses
C-58 Vacarisses-Castellbell
C-16 Berga-Bagá


















Metal crashbarriers are used in curved stretches, while New Jersey barriers are used in straights. Transitions between each stretch look like this:


----------



## Suburbanist

How are plans to extend AG-55 to Noia going on? When will it reach Cee?


----------



## verreme

^^ AG-55 will not reach Noia, since Noia is not on its route. There's a _corredor_ (single-carriageway expressway) that links AG-56 with Noia that opened a few years ago.

As for AG-55, the stretch between Baio and Berdoias is U/C, but works are suspended due to financial difficulties. There are talks to extend it until Cee, but no serious plans for the moment (source).


----------



## KRX_69

*N-332*

43.

N332 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

44.

N332 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

45.

N332 - Torrevieja by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*CV-95*

46.

CV95 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

47.

CV95 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*AP-7*

48.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

49.

AP-7 - saída Los Montesinos by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

50.

AP-7 - saída Torrevieja norte by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

51.

AP-7 - saída Algorfa by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

52.

AP-7 - saída Algorfa by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

53.

AP-7 - saída Guardamar by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

54.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

55.

AP-7 - saída Catral by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

56.

AP-7 - saída Crevillent by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

57.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

58.

AP-7 - saída Crevillent by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-7*

59.

A7 - saída Elche by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

60.

A7 - saída Elche by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


----------



## KRX_69

61.

A7 - saída A31 Albacete by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

62.

A70 - saída Elche by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

63.

A70 - saída Torrellano by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

64.

A70 - saída A31 Madrid by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

65.

A70 - saída A31 Alicante by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

66.

A70 - saída A31 Alicante by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-31*

67.

A31 - saída Torrellano by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

68.

A31 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

69.

A31 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

70.

A31 - Alicante by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

71.

Calle México by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

:cheers:


----------



## arctic_carlos

Due to a strike in Catalonia, several motorways have been occupied and blocked to traffic. This was C-32 this morning in my hometown:



















http://www.lavanguardia.com/politic...o-pais-catalunya-violencia-referendum-1o.html


----------



## Suburbanist

Cabo de las Gatas looks an interesting place, I want to visit it in person.


----------



## jdb.2

KRX_69 said:


> 71.
> 
> Calle México by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


Is this an eye test?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm looking into the highway numbering history of the Comunitat Valenciana.

So far I found;
* 1984: carreteras comarcales were transferred to the autonomous region
* 1991: new law on autonomous road system
* 2013: renumbering with CV-routes?

I found this regarding the 2013 Catálogo del Sistema Viario de la Comunitat Valenciana.

I'm wondering if the CV-numbering was implemented in 2013 or earlier. The Spanish Wikipedia article isn't clear on this. Edit: I found a 2008 news article using the current CV-numbering so it must be older than 2008.

I'm interest in seeing original highway catalogues of the Comunitat Valenciana. I couldn't find one.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-33*

The new A-33 section between Yecla and Jumilla (23.4 km) will most probably open tomorrow:

http://www.elperiodicodeyecla.com/manana-jueves-inaugurara-la-autovia/


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm looking into the highway numbering history of the Comunitat Valenciana.
> 
> So far I found;
> * 1984: carreteras comarcales were transferred to the autonomous region
> * 1991: new law on autonomous road system
> * 2013: renumbering with CV-routes?
> 
> I found this regarding the 2013 Catálogo del Sistema Viario de la Comunitat Valenciana.
> 
> I'm wondering if the CV-numbering was implemented in 2013 or earlier. The Spanish Wikipedia article isn't clear on this. Edit: I found a 2008 news article using the current CV-numbering so it must be older than 2008.
> 
> I'm interest in seeing original highway catalogues of the Comunitat Valenciana. I couldn't find one.


Before AP-7 between Crevillente and Cartagena was built, part of it through Southern Alicante was initially built as a regular road numbered CV-90. So CV-xxx numbers were already in place in the 90s, as that particular section of AP-7 was opened in mid 2001 and initially as A-37.

Also of note is that some provinces, including Zaragoza, also use CV-xxx for their provincial roads (In this case meaning _Camino Vecinal_, not Valencian Community). In those cases I replace the C with the provincial code to avoid confusion. Interesting enough, the Valencian Community numbering system is unified for regional and provincial roads, so the "CV" of those CV-xxx roads maintained by the provinces has both meanings!


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-33*



MichiH said:


> *A33:* Jumilla – Yecla 23.4km (December 2014 to Early October 2017) – ? – map


It has opened this morning (10 months ahead of schedule):










http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/315...l-trafico-ahorrara-entre-11-15-minutos-viaje/

The newly opened section:










And an overview of A-33:










In blue: opened to traffic.
In yellow: (from north to south) under construction, tendered and to be tendered next year.

Official press release (in Spanish): http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...en-de-la/ae40da1e-098f-44a4-aca2-4c0089bf7bd7


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*RM-1, Murcia*

It was also announced that Fomento will finance € 160 million to construct the last 11 kilometer segment of RM-1 between Zeneta and A-7 north of Santomera. 










Why will Fomento finance RM-1, which is an autovía of the autonomous community. Is it considered to be a part of MU-30 / Autovía del Reguerón?

A part of Autovía del Reguerón is already under construction:


----------



## Reivajar

^^ Maybe you are right and Fomento is thinking on that section as a big orbital highway around Murcia for interconnecting the national network crossing the metropolitan area: A-7 and A-30. The capacity of the current connector through the city is pretty limited, so it makes sense to consider to enlarge the capacity for through traffic in the city.

Arco Noroeste + MU-30 as future A-30
Arco Norte as future A-7
And then the section you commented of the RM-1 + Autovía del Regueron as a bypass from A-7 northbound to A-30 southbound.
Then, eventually, all the existing sections of those highways through the inner part of the city will be considered as urban motorways (MU-3X, MU-7X, or whatever), or even transferred in some cases to the autonomous government.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*SE-40*



MichiH said:


> *SE40:* Coria del Rio – El Copero ~3.5km (? to _suspended_) – ? – map


Construction of the planned SE-40 tunnels under the Guadalquivir river could be reactivated next year. They were suspended in 2012. Let's see.

http://sevilla.abc.es/sevilla/sevi-...s_source=tw&ns_linkname=noticia.foto&ns_fee=0


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-68*

_Fomento_ has announced today the start of the project writing of a 25.5 km section of A-68 (duplication of N-232) in La Rioja, between Calahorra and the border with Navarre (where A-68 already exists).

Together with the remaining A-68 sections currently in service or under construction west of Zaragoza, there will be more than 100 km of toll-free A-68 parallel to toll motorway AP-68. :nuts:

Official press release (in Spanish): http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...de-de-la/e91e6fbb-0727-4115-b7f9-221bf4b5861d


----------



## verreme

^^ This will be a very funny situation if they decide not to renew the concession of AP-68. Two toll-free, parallel motorways.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-33*

A regional newspaper has published this interesting map of the different routes between Valencia and Murcia:










http://www.laverdad.es/murcia/itinerarios-entre-murcia-valencia-20171006003226-in.html

All of them are (or will be) 100% motorway with the exception of the orange route (the shortest one). A-33 is of course the best alternative.


----------



## alserrod

About A-68, a hint.... there's a gap between motorway and Navarra bound. It ends in the cross with AP-15, near bound but not in the bound


----------



## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> ^^ This will be a very funny situation if they decide not to renew the concession of AP-68. Two toll-free, parallel motorways.


Yes, and if they do renew the concession, it will be a ghost motorway with no traffic. With this continuing duplication of N-232 into A-68, the toll road will quickly lose its added value.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes, and if they do renew the concession, it will be a ghost motorway with no traffic. With this continuing duplication of N-232 into A-68, the toll road will quickly lose its added value.


There are still people who takes GPS and just because one minute less... tolled motorway, be sure!!!


----------



## KRX_69

*Alicante - Benidorm - Murcia (15.09.2017)*

01.

Av. Universitat by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-70*

02.

A-70 - saída Alicante norte by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*AP-7*

03.

AP-7 - saída La Vila Joiosa by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

04.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

05.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

06.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

07.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

08.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

09.

AP-7 - saída La Vila Joiosa by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

10.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

11.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

12.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

13.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

14.

AP-7 - saída Benidorm poniente by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

15.

AP-7 - saída Benidorm poniente by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

16.

AP-7 - saída Benidorm levante by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*N-332*

17.

N-332 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


----------



## KRX_69

18.

Av. Papa Juan Pablo II by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*AP-7*

19.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

20.

AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

21.

AP-7 - saída A-70 Alicante by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

22.

AP-7 - saída A-70 Alicante by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-70*

23.

A-70 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

24.

A-70 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

25.

A-70 - saída A-77 Alcoi by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

26.

A-70 - saída A-31 Madrid by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

27.

A-70 - saída Torrellano by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-7*

28.

A-7 - saída Elx/Elche by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

29.

A-7 - saída Crevillent by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

30.

A-7 - saída AP-7 Torrevieja by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

31.

A-7 - saída Crevillent by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

32.

A-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

33.

A-7 - saída San Isidro by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

34.

A-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

35.

A-7 - saída Santomera by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

36.

A-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

37.

A-7 - saída A-30 Murcia by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

38.

A-7 - saída A-30 Murcia by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

39.

Av. Don Juan de Borbon by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

40.

Av. Don Juan de Borbon by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

41.

Av. Don Juan de Borbon by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

42.

Ronda de Levante by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

:cheers:


----------



## Highway89

A couple of aerial pictures of the *A-12* from the local newspaper of La Rioja. They've been taken from the new toy of the local Spanish army base: A NH90 helicopter.

Crossing the river Ebro and joining the LO-20.









Bypassing the town of Nájera and crossing the river Najerilla.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Región de Murcia*

The Spanish route numbering system makes road mappers crazy. :lol:

I found RM-422 (or is it RM-423) in Región de Murcia. It used to be a part of C-3223 (Almansa - Yecla - Murcia). It was officially renumbered in 2008. 

The 2008 road list shows no RM-422, but lists that route as RM-423 (which is a 'green' or second level autonomous road).









The official road map has listed it as an orange RM-422 (first level autonomous road). It is also signed like this on the kilometer markers.









Google Maps applies a red number to it. Which is wrong, but...









... it is based on a red RM-422 shield! :lol:









However the only other road sign with a number on it shows the old C-3223 :lol:









That concludes our daily dose of Spanish route numbering. :cheers:


----------



## CNGL

You should check Cantabria. Its numbering makes absolutely no sense, with roads changing numbers at random intersections (You come on an "orange road", then suddenly it becomes a "green" one while the intersecting road is an "orange" one with a different number!), new alignments receiving new numbers instead of inheriting pre-existing ones (check around Santillana del Mar), and the Villaverde exclave, where its two main roads have different numbers to those of their implied continuations in the main territory.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-334*

The Andalusian regional government plans to tender in the coming months the construction of the two missing sections of A-334 (_Autovía del Almanzora_) between Albox and A-7 (Almería province). 

The section between El Cucador and La Concepción should be tendered before the end of the year, while the section between La Concepción and A-7 should follow in April 2018.

Source: http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/315...ovia-almanzora-antes-fin-ano-otro-abril-2018/


----------



## Suburbanist

I don't know how would I manage to navigate Spain secondary roads if I did not have GPS navigation devices (before) or phone apps (now). Even with a detailed-ish atlas, all this numbering schemes would be horrible for pre-GPS printed map navigation.


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> I don't know how would I manage to navigate Spain secondary roads if I did not have GPS navigation devices (before) or phone apps (now). Even with a detailed-ish atlas, all this numbering schemes would be horrible for pre-GPS printed map navigation.


Before GPS I remember that no so many overpasses existed (but roads in the middle of towns or so), thus it was easy to know that in one town, direction XX, later in XX direction YY... and so on.

Wasn't hard at all. Main problems where (a loooong time ago) with crosses in countryshire when maybe a national road had the same standard than a local one or so and wasn't so easy to guess correct directions.


But with single maps haven't had problems to reach anywhere.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*EX-A1*

Autovía EX-A1 in Extremadura. The section on these photos opened to traffic in 2005 & 2006.

1. 

EX-A1-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

EX-A1-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. Autovía del Norte de Extremadura.

EX-A1-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. (CC = Cáceres).

EX-A1-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

EX-A1-10 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. Majadas.

EX-A1-13 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

EX-A1-16 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. 

EX-A1-18 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. 

EX-A1-22 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. Malpartida de Plasencia.

EX-A1-25 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. 

EX-A1-29 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. Plasencia-Este.

EX-A1-33 by European Roads, on Flickr

13. 

EX-A1-35 by European Roads, on Flickr

14.

EX-A1-37 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## alserrod

I explain the case where you say CC= Caceres


Until year 2000 car plates had one or two lettres depending of their name.
There were some changes. For instance Ourense changed from OR to OU, Girona changed from GE to GI and Islas Baleares changed from PM (Palma de Mallorca, btw, nowadays only "Palma") to IB .

SH was for Sahara, IF for Sidi Ifni, and there were always for Equatorial Guinea too.


But, regarding only current 50 provinces (plus 2 cities), cases where name wasn't first letter or first two letters were:

SG = SeGovia (S = Santander, SE = Sevilla), 
CS = CaStellon (C = La Coruña, CA = CAdiz)
CC = CaCeres (same case)
ML = MeLilla (M = Madrid but didn't exist ME btw)
AB = AlBacete (A =Alicante, AL = ALmería)

and well... CR = Ciudad Real. There were two words, and it is an exemption.

They were quite known because car plates, today they keep being used for other purposes but not so much.


----------



## CNGL

IIRC Equatorial Guinea used FP (Fernando Poo, the island) and RM (Rio Muni, the part on African mainland). There's also (Santa Cruz de) Tenerife, which used TF despite TN being free. At first the Canaries used TE, which stood for _Territorio Español_, and was split into TF and GC (Gran Canaria). Then Teruel started using TE.


----------



## alserrod

a hint....

road names are after car plates according to former province lettre code (for number code it is from 01 = Alava to 50 = Zaragoza plus 51 = Ceuta and 52 = Melilla).

For all of them they took capital province instead of province name.

At first there were several exemptions...

African territories (For instance, Sahara was SH insteade of AA... from El Aaiún, the capital, Layaaoune in French but look at airport code is named after Spanish: EAN), Navarra (NA, when capital is Pamplona) and Las Palmas (capital: Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, province Las Palmas, with three islands: Gran Canaria, Fuerteventura and Lanzarote. They had GC as car plate)


----------



## arctic_carlos

According to some forumers (and wikipedia), the traditional Roman numerals used in radial national roads (N-I to N-VI) have been abandoned and now these roads are officially signposted with Arabic numerals (N-1 to N-6). However, the change will of course take place in actual road signs only gradually.

In my opinion, they could also rename N-340 as N-7, N-634 as N-8 and N-550 as N-9.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Hmmm, I kind of liked that oddity...


----------



## Reivajar

^^ Mee too. Kind of classy.


----------



## jdb.2

Well 1492 is now more than 500 years ago, so it's safe to switch back to Arabic numerals.


----------



## verreme

arctic_carlos said:


> According to some forumers (and wikipedia), the traditional Roman numerals used in radial national roads (N-I to N-VI) have been abandoned and now these roads are officially signposted with Arabic numerals (N-1 to N-6). However, the change will of course take place in actual road signs only gradually.
> 
> In my opinion, they could also rename N-340 as N-7, N-634 as N-8 and N-550 as N-9.


Well it turns out that the officials in Fomento's road numbering department, if there's such a thing, are soulless, square-minded individuals with absolutely no love for roads.

What a surprise


----------



## alserrod

Another issue is... when they started building motorways, they set same road system (except for A7, A8 and A9) but only two numbers.

I guess that in some years, not enough numbers for all motorways


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## Boltzman

^^ I'm sure Fomento will find new empty road prefixes to fill up.


----------



## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> I guess that in some years, not enough numbers for all motorways


Probably you're right in the long term, but for the next 20-30 years there shouldn't be any problems.

We have to take into account that from A-10 to A-99 there are 90 possible numbers for State-owned motorways. Currently only 50 of these possible A-XX motorways exist (including those still under construction, and those numbers so far only used for AP-XX toll motorways).

That means we still have 40 free A-XX motorway numbers. Around 10 of them have already been allocated to projected motorways, which means there are still 30 free numbers. We shouldn't worry at the moment.


----------



## sotonsi

I make it 51 numbers currently in use on roads that are open (including the non-autovia A79 in Alicante). And there's a few more allocated onto proposed/under-construction routes.

Numbers used for national Autovias or Autopistas* including plans that haven't happened (only about 6 numbers)
1-15, 21-28, 30-33, 35-38, 40-46, 48-68, 71-76, 81, 83, 91

Numbers used for city routes of Alicante (part of national scheme)
70, 77, 79

Number used for Andalucia Autovia (and clearly would have that number if national)
92

That leaves 16-20, 29, 34, 39, 47, 69, 78, 82, 84-90 and 93-99. 26 numbers in total that haven't been allocated under this numbering scheme (so the old numbers for Catalonia aren't included).

*As same numbered Autovia-Autopista pairs are either parallel, or part of the same freeway, the numbers used won't be reused for a different corridor.


----------



## CNGL

A-16 to A-19 were formerly used in Catalonia. (A-16 and A-19 are now C-32, A-17 is C-33 and A-18 part of C-16). The original A-10 was in Madrid, it was changed to M-11 and then the number got picked up by Navarre (Incidentally I drove all of current A-10 last month). There used to be an A-36 unrelated to AP-36 which is now part of A-7. At one point there was an A-47 planned, which would have run along N-433. A-78 was used for a duplicated section of N-340 between Elche and Crevillente, but it has been dropped since.


----------



## alserrod

Well.... in that case, LZ-602 is also tolled. It is the road to reach the centre of Timanfaya national park. There is a big parking in the middle and a nice restaurant that cooks.... with Earth heat!!!! (no fire, no gaz, no electricity) and obviously a bus guided tour around vulcanoes but just to enter there and reach the parking only for a meal costs 8 euro per person (later, if you want, bus tour included)


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-67*

The Spanish government has authorized the tendering of a new 2.95 km section of A-67 near Torrelavega (Cantabria). Currently, A-67 and A-8 share the same 2x2 alignment north of Torrelavega, which causes traffic congestion very often. The construction of this new alignment of A-67 will put an end to this problem. It has an estimated cost of € 165 M.

Official press release (in Spanish): http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...ción-del/ff89bee9-152f-4fd0-9ea4-4f9a3d59dc00

New A-67 alignment northeast of Torrelavega:


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-67*

^^ This has been fast. :lol:

After the Spanish government authorized the tendering last Friday, today _Fomento _has already tendered the construction of this new A-67 section.

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...tinuidad/3071b86e-e329-4a29-963c-8fd5085b963c


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A slightly better map:


----------



## Reivajar

Will be the current alignment of the A-67 North of Torrelavega renumbered between the new Barreda Interchange and the A-8? TR-XX?


----------



## Eulanthe

Thoughts from the Costa del Sol:

1) The coast road (A-7) from Fuengirola to the end of the AP-7 west of Estapona is a mess. They really should eliminate many junctions and replace it with a proper collector/distributor road - there's space to do it in many areas, at least going west. 

The new-ish bit of A-7 west of Estapona is also horrible. It's not an old road, but the countless roundabouts means that it really should be signed N-340 and not A-7. 

2) The A-7/AP-7 outer Malaga bypass is...well, why on earth is there a 100km/h limit from the AP-46 all the way to the merge with the MA-30? It's a beautiful road, and there's no reason whatsoever for traffic to be held at 100km/h. 

3) The AP-46 still seems completely useless to me, and having used it several times (my wife is scared of the A-45 :/) over the last few days, it's clear that it doesn't really offer any advantages at all. It's also very clear that the speed limits were lowered intentionally on the A-45 to encourage traffic onto the AP-46.

4) Spanish speed limits seem to be completely and totally arbitrary. I noticed today when driving between Malaga and Seville that the A-92 in particular has some strange 100 sections that simply don't justify it, while some bad corners remain 120km/h. 

And so, my questions:

1) When did the Fuengirola bypass open? I mean, not the new AP-7, but the current A-7/old N-340. 

2) Is there anything new and major planned to be built road-wise on the Costa del Sol? 

3) What's the story with the access to La Linea? It seems that both motorways end very suddenly and deposit traffic onto roads that are completely unsuitable.


----------



## verreme

^^ Spain is very zealous with speed limits. Those apparently pointless 100 and 80 km/h zones are all over the country. Essentially every corner tighter than some very strict criteria must have a speed restriction. Every offramp has signs descending from 120 to 60 or 40 in 20 km/h steps. Other countries are not that strict.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Eulanthe said:


> 1) When did the Fuengirola bypass open? I mean, not the new AP-7, but the current A-7/old N-340.


1990:


----------



## CNGL

So I've watched ChrisZwolle's A-21 video again, and now I've realized both times I've driven it all the way to its end instead of taking AP-15 North to Pamplona I took the loop into Noain. Once again what attracted me to that Pamplona suburb was the trail running event that took place the Saturday I was headed towards Urbasa ridge, even though this time I didn't take part in it as I was going to run an orienteering course that afternoon. One odd fact about Noain's streets is that one can legally drive on this boardwalk!!! :crazy::nuts: And even better, the street to the left is now closed to general traffic, so if one ends up in that street will have no choice but to use the boardwalk.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-7*

A-7 is planned to be widened to 2x3 between exits 438 (west of Almería) and 429 (Aguadulce, interchange with A-1051 - which  will be refurbished). The project writing has just been tendered.

The widening has an estimated cost of €31.5 M. Fortunately the Aguadulce tunnels are already prepared to 2x3.

Source (in Spanish): http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...e-del-en/856c8a6f-c61e-4e8f-99d4-234256b2a2b4

Map (sorry for the bad quality):


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are also three viaducts which have support columns wide enough to expand the bridges inward. This explains the low cost of the expansion project (€ 3.5 million per km).


----------



## arctic_carlos

*SE-40*

Google Earth has updated its aerial footage of the Seville area with images taken last July, which means we can get a general overview of the current state of the 3 SE-40 sections currently under construction.



MichiH said:


> *SE40:* Espartinas (A49) – Almensilla ~7km (? to Late 2017) – ? – map
> *SE40:* Almensilla – Coria del Rio ~7km (? to Late 2017) – ? – map
> *SE40:* Carretera de la Isla (A4) – Torrequinto (A376) 8.1km (? to March 2018) – ? – map


^^ The two first sections are quite advanced. There shouldn't be any problems to open them on time.

Unfortunately, the section between A-4 and A-376 seems less advanced. They should work hard to get it done by March 2018.



MichiH said:


> *SE40:* Coria del Rio – El Copero ~3.5km (? to _suspended_) – ? – map
> *SE40:* El Copero – Carretera de la Isla (A4) ~2km (? to March 2018) – ? – map


^^ I'd personally merge these two sections, because there won't be any partial opening until the tunnels beneath the river Guadalquivir are built. In Google Earth it's now pretty clear where the current construction works end, about 1 km west of A-4.


----------



## Suburbanist

Which Island has more impressive roads? Gran Canaria or Tenerife?


----------



## Highway89

^^ Tenerife IMO. The roads in and around the Teide National Park are stunning.


----------



## alserrod

In addition, highest Spanish mountain pass (not a point where to arrive by car but a road that comes from a village, climbs a mountain, cross a pass and go ahead) is in Tenerife


----------



## Suburbanist

I am on the early stages of planning a trip July next year. Options are the hinterland of Portugal, Galicia and Andalucia, or Madeira, one of the Canary Islands and Wales or Scotland.


----------



## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> 1990:


Wow, thank you very much for this!

I'm shocked, to be honest. I thought much of the infrastructure dated from earlier, possibly even the 1970's. It's hard to imagine traffic using the old N-340 through Fuengirola in the 1980's, especially as many of the big hotels and apartments were built in the 1970's and 1980's.

It's a shame to see how Fuengirola and Benalmadena have wrecked the old coast road, too. The exit from the A-7 towards Benalmadena now has some really intolerable limits, including large sections of 30km/h which is just far, far too slow.

I wonder if there were already plans for the current AP-7 to be built when they were planning the Malaga-Marbella section? It would make sense as to why they upgraded the N-340 in such a poor way, because it only had to last 10 years before being replaced by a proper motorway. I used the Fuengirola-Malaga section of the old N-340 a lot in the 1990's, but I don't remember if the Fuengirola-Benalmadena section was signed as autovia or not.


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> I am on the early stages of planning a trip July next year. Options are the hinterland of Portugal, Galicia and Andalucia, or Madeira, one of the Canary Islands and Wales or Scotland.


If you have enough time and just wanna to drive with stunning landscapes... choose El Hierro by far.

There are only 30 km corner to corner (15 km north-south) but can see that arriving to airport, to reach Valverde have to climb 1.500ish mountain passes or tiny one way tunnels (barely traffic, only one lane with traffic lights)

When a vulcano started some years ago 2 km ahead from the coast (coming from 2000 m below sea level it made a mountain that kept only 500m under sea. Should it had continue, a new island in Canaries), they had to isolate some areas and other ones had forbidden to cross tunnels, therefore, a long detour through mountains.

https://www.google.es/maps/place/38...aaeec4a0!8m2!3d27.8097786!4d-17.9150422?hl=es



Important!!!!

To reach there, providing you do not want to have a long ferry journey, the only way to reach El Hierro is by plane via Tenerife *NORTH *airport.
(almost all international flights arrive to Tenerife south. They are in the same island but will have to find how to link from airport to airport... or hire a car and drive through Teide mountain pass btw!!!!).

Nowadays, in winter season I can see, 3 daily journeys, 4 in friday, less ones in weekends.

In summer I think 4 daily ones at least from Tenerife North and sometimes per week from La Palma island


The island has 10.000 population and that's all service


----------



## adevahi

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ The two first sections are quite advanced. There shouldn't be any problems to open them on time.


The first one, Almensilla-Espartinas, haven't changed since (at least) 2014. It's finished (nearly) but not opened, probably because that section doesn't make a lot of sense without the tunnels and it makes absolutely no sense without the second section, so I bet Almensilla-Espartinas will not be opened at least until Coria del Río-Almensilla is opened or maybe even until the tunnels are finished (which probably means 2022 or later :bash
hno:



arctic_carlos said:


> Unfortunately, the section between A-4 and A-376 seems less advanced. They should work hard to get it done by March 2018.


Yes, some structures are not still built. I think, every pillar is finished, but a lot of beams aren't in their place, so... 2018 still seems to be the most likely date of opening, but it will not be in March.

For detailing better this information:
Beams of the bridge over Av. Leopoldo Calvo Sotelo are collocated since months ago, Google Maps still doesn't show it, but on Google Earth it can be seen that the bridge is finished:
(https://www.google.es/maps/@37.3007708,-5.924364,148m/data=!3m1!1e3)
Beams over the A-4 haven't still been collocated, this will probably be the last bridge to be built, but in Google Earth is possible to see that it is more advanced than the picture shown by Google Maps:
(https://www.google.es/maps/@37.294779,-5.9791196,288m/data=!3m1!1e3)

Aaaaand the new that I can offer that can not be seen even in Google Earth is that over Avenida de las Universidades (https://www.google.es/maps/@37.2994402,-5.9431782,424m/data=!3m1!1e3), the beams are being collocated. There are beams just over the lanes of the avenue below (these ones will be colocated soon), and some betweent the previous one and the sand (these one were colocated very few days ago), and is the last advanced that could be seen on SE-40.
I have photos of them, if someone wants them I can send through email or telegram, and later they can be upload here, but I prefer to don't upload them by myself.



MichiH said:


> *
> SE40: Espartinas (A49) – Almensilla ~7km (? to Late 2017) – ? – map
> SE40: Almensilla – Coria del Rio ~7km (? to Late 2017) – ? – map
> SE40: El Copero – Carretera de la Isla (A4) ~2km (? to March 2018) – ? – map
> SE40: Carretera de la Isla (A4) – Torrequinto (A376) 8.1km (? to March 2018) – ? – map
> SE40: Coria del Rio – El Copero ~3.5km (? to suspended) – ? – map
> *


*

I don't know if MichiH read this conversation, but I'd recommend him to rename the sections, like this:
Almensilla-Espartinas
Coria del Río-Almensilla
Carretera de la Isla (A4)-El Copero
Torrequinto-Carretera de la Isla
El Copero-Coria del Río.

The km0 of SE-40 is near the airport, and increasing direction of kms go in clockwork direction, not in the opposite.

Edit: 2019 is a year with local elections in May, but in Andalousia we will likely have regional elections even before (March), so maybe the end of 2018 will have lot of new opened roads.*


----------



## geogregor

Suburbanist said:


> and Wales or Scotland.


Sorry for OT but go for Scotland. It has way more interesting drives. 

And Tenerife is fun to drive. Has anything, from busy motorways to some crazy narrow mountain roads, like TF-436, road to Masca.

There are plenty of flight there and car rental is cheap and easy to arrange.


----------



## verreme

^^ Opening dates are usually scheduled to meet election years. Just look at the amount of motorway mileage opened in 2015 and compare it to 2014 and 2016. Currently, it looks that almost all ongoing projects are going to be finished in 2019-2020.


----------



## CNGL

sponge_bob said:


> How did Aragon manage to 'steal' the road off the waterworks people? (I take it A-1207 is an Aragonese designation not an Autovia here)


Probably it has never been part of the regional network. A-1207 starts at A-132 near Esquedas and suddenly disappears near Tormos (La Sotonera dam, the large lake North of Zaragoza). This is reflected in the 2013 log, which also names it as Esquedas-Gurrea de Gallego road. This suggests it is planned to be extended to A-1209 near Gurrea de Gallego (and indeed there is a sign pointing to A-1207), but it is currently unsigned. I remember seeing a old map with another "green" road running from Ardisa to Almudevar on what is now HU-521 and CHE-1429, I believe this was originally planned to be A-1208 (which is now assigned to some former waterwork roads in the Five Towns _comarca_ that became part of the regional network some time ago).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Construction on the 2 kilometer Son Ferriol section of Ma-30 on Mallorca will be restarted in January. The deadline is 15 March 2019.

http://www.conselldemallorca.net/?id_section=1&action=news&id_article=28984&id_parent=1


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Just before the next elections, of course.


----------



## alserrod

Have read that finally, Soller tunnel will be toll-free before year ends


----------



## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Construction on the 2 kilometer Son Ferriol section of Ma-30 on Mallorca will be restarted in January. The deadline is 15 March 2019.
> 
> http://www.conselldemallorca.net/?id_section=1&action=news&id_article=28984&id_parent=1


They have been scratching away at upgrading the MA-13 near Palma to 3+3 in recent years and need to widen it as far as Inca now.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*SE-40*

New opening dates were announced yesterday by the Minister during a visit in Seville:



MichiH said:


> *SE40:* Coria del Rio – Almensilla ~7km (? to 2019) – ? – map
> *SE40:* Almensilla – Espartinas (A49) ~7km (? to 2019) – ? – map


First quarter 2018.



MichiH said:


> *SE40:* Torrequinto (A376) – Carretera de la Isla (A4) 8.1km (? to March 2018) – ? – map


Sometime in 2018.



MichiH said:


> *SE40:* Carretera de la Isla (A4) – Coria del Rio ~5.5km (? to ?) – ? – map


Construction will be resumed in summer 2018, but only in a reduced way: of the 4 planned tunnels below the Guadalquivir river, only construction on the 2 northern tubes will be resumed. That means the section will probably open with a 2+2 configuration instead of 2+2+2+2, as originally planned. The 2 southern tubes will be resumed at a later stage.

Source:

http://m.diariodesevilla.es/sevilla/Fomento-retomara-tuneles-norte-SE-40_0_1201380448.html

http://sevilla.abc.es/sevilla/sevi-...0-provincia-sevilla-201712191556_noticia.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It makes sense not to go all-out on an expensive 4-tube tunnel, but use a phased construction, with the addition of two more tubes when traffic volumes warrant them.


----------



## adevahi

arctic_carlos said:


> Construction will be resumed in summer 2018, but only in a reduced way: of the 4 planned tunnels below the Guadalquivir river, only construction on the 2 northern tubes will be resumed. That means the section *will probably open* with a 2+2 configuration instead of 2+2+2+2, as originally planned. The 2 southern tubes will be resumed at a later stage.
> 
> Source:
> 
> http://m.diariodesevilla.es/sevilla/Fomento-retomara-tuneles-norte-SE-40_0_1201380448.html
> 
> http://sevilla.abc.es/sevilla/sevi-...0-provincia-sevilla-201712191556_noticia.html


I don't think so. Construction of the tunnels will take so many years, they will start with the northen ones because the project of the southernmost is invalid and must be fully changed (by the way, the projects for the northernmost need partial changes also). However, I don't think they will open firstly some of them and later the others... still left so many time for their completion (and even for the start of workings), so nothing can be sure.

Source:

Also the ones posted in the quote (edit)


----------



## CNGL

So I still find more duplicates. In addition to the already known A-124, A-126, A-132 and A-2602 I've found two more designations that are both in Aragon and Alava:
A-2521: Old N-234 section near Albentosa/AP-68 exit 5 to Biscay exclave border.
A-2522: Manzanera to Alcotas/Areta to Biscay border towards Zubiaur (a.k.a. Orozko).


----------



## arctic_carlos

Google Earth has been extensively updated with recent images covering many motorway projects under construction throughout Spain (especially the north of the country).

Just to mention some of them: A-54 near Santiago, A-23 in Monrepós (the whole mountain pass for the first time), A-21 near Jaca, A-56 in Galicia, A-57 near Pontevedra, A-60 near León, A-63 in Asturias and AG-46 near Vigo.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

arctic_carlos said:


> A-23 in Monrepós (the whole mountain pass for the first time),


Awesome! I was hoping for a recent imagery update. The satellite photo is of high quality and dated 8 September 2017. For the first time you can clearly see the plan for A-23 across Monrepós. 

There is still a short section south of the Arguis exit where no works have commenced. It seems that they are building a single tube tunnel there, but there is only a tunnel portal on the north side so far. 

Also, they are building a better curve on the current N-330, so it is not just the case of building 1 modern carriageway and make the old road a one-way carriageway without improvements. 










How is this area during the winter? Does it get frequent snow? There is a really long climb on A-23 where you have to overcome 500 meters in altitude difference on both sides of the pass.


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is still a short section south of the Arguis exit where no works have commenced. It seems that they are building a single tube tunnel there, but there is only a tunnel portal on the north side so far.












The southern portal is also under construction. In this other forum some users confirmed it a few months ago:

https://www.nevasport.com/phorum/read.php?75,2170394,page=10


----------



## alserrod

I drove there last time on November 1st.

Curve on current N-330 is finished (it will be direction south!!) and you can see it while you are driving. What it is hard to see is the new tunnel and link to the other carriageway. There is another long brigde already finished and they are in the phase of asphalt.

If you ask me I would state that they could open short streches instead of all the motorway at once.. There area, at least, two crosses where you have to deviate through exits and "take motorway/road" again. One of them is just in Arguis (just in the north of last picture above, after yellow line).

Works go until Lanave. After Lanave they haven't started yet

On winter... it depends. It takes a lot of people on weekends because it links to a lot of ski resorts. At the begining of December all ski resorts open and there are two holidays in Spain (thus one free day and 5 consecutive days for free). There were several death in the summit.

It hasn't many problems due to snow. Pass is not so high... but every winter you can find some of them. There is a good maintenance but prudence is required, and sometimes recommended to go over former road just because it takes 100m less.





ChrisZwolle said:


> Awesome! I was hoping for a recent imagery update. The satellite photo is of high quality and dated 8 September 2017. For the first time you can clearly see the plan for A-23 across Monrepós.
> 
> There is still a short section south of the Arguis exit where no works have commenced. It seems that they are building a single tube tunnel there, but there is only a tunnel portal on the north side so far.
> 
> Also, they are building a better curve on the current N-330, so it is not just the case of building 1 modern carriageway and make the old road a one-way carriageway without improvements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is this area during the winter? Does it get frequent snow? There is a really long climb on A-23 where you have to overcome 500 meters in altitude difference on both sides of the pass.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-63*



arctic_carlos said:


> It seems they're gonna make it:
> 
> http://www.elcomercio.es/asturias/tramo-autovia-dorigacornellana-20171215004801-ntvo.html


It will open to traffic on Tuesday, 26 December: http://lavozdeltrubia.es/2017/12/21...-de-la-autovia-a-la-espina-se-abre-el-martes/

This October 2017 satellite image shows that they needed to do quite a bit of work on the Cornellana connection:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Excma.*

Why do they use the abbreviation 'Excma.' (Excelentísima?) for the Diputación of Burgos? What does it imply? I haven't seen this in other provinces I've been to.


PB233330 by J GM, on Flickr


----------



## Highway89

Today was one of those winter days with clear skies on which you can see the Pyrenees from Logroño. So I decided to go to the Alto de La Grajera, west of the city along the LO-20 and take some pictures with a zoom lens and a polarising filter.

The Camino de Santiago pilgrimage route passes through this little "mountain pass" between Logroño and Navarrete. Some pilgrims make a cross with two sticks and put it up on the fence. You can also see the La Grajera, originally a lagoon. In the 19th century, farmers built a **** to make the lagoon bigger and use it for irrigation. Nowadays it is a big park with deer, swans, donkeys and other animals.

Logroño desde el alto de La Grajera (1) by J GM, en Flickr

That arid hill dominating the town is the 500-m high Monte Cantabria, where the celtic tribe of the Berones build the town of Vareia.

Logroño desde el alto de La Grajera (2) by J GM, en Flickr

Detail of the cable-stayed bridge of the LO-20 over the Iregua and the arch bridge of the A-12 over the Ebro. That part of the Pyrenees is already in the province of Huesca.

Logroño y los Pirineos de fondo by J GM, en Flickr


Looking east. That weird effect in the blue signs is caused by the polarising filter, I guess.

LO-20 La Grajera by J GM, en Flickr

On the background you can see the AP-68, which has become more _popular_ among truck drivers now that through truck traffic has been banned from the N-232.

AP-68 by J GM, en Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Highway89 said:


> That weird effect in the blue signs is caused by the polarising filter, I guess.


It seems that they changed destinations and road numbers without replacing the entire sign. You'll end up with panels with different shades of blue due to the difference in age.


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> Why do they use the abbreviation 'Excma.' (Excelentísima?) for the Diputación of Burgos? What does it imply? I haven't seen this in other provinces I've been to.


I think it's something traditional. All _Diputaciones_ are _Excelentísimas_ AFAIK, but most of them just don't use the "Excma." thing.

There's some weird stuff behind historical titles. For instance, Madrid and Bilbao don't have the official title of "ciudad", but "villa" (a lower category). However, Frías (pop. 258) is rightfully a "ciudad".



ChrisZwolle said:


> It seems that they changed destinations and road numbers without replacing the entire sign. You'll end up with panels with different shades of blue due to the difference in age.


Yeah, but the difference didn't stand out to the bare eye. At night, however, you can indeed see different degrees of reflection.


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## alserrod

Excma.... there are some words in Spanish where it is often to write first and last words for abbreviations instead of only first ones.



Randomly took one in google. This is Ciudad Real municipality logo


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## Highway89

^^ Between 42k and 52k, according to this piece of news: 



> El objetivo, según ha destacado Rajoy este miércoles en su discurso, es "resolver el cuello de botella" que se producía en este punto, en la circunvalación de la capital gallega, que soporta un *tráfico diario de unos 42.000 vehículos con picos de más de 52.000.*


http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...tiago/idEdicion-2018-01-03/idNoticia-1092351/


Edit: arctic_carlos was faster than me


----------



## Highway89

According to the press, at least 8 projects of the Plan Extraordinario de Inversión en Carreteras (PIC) could be awarded this year via _payment for availability_ deals.


1) A-30 Arco Noroeste de Murcia 32.8 km / 279 M

2) A-7 new bypass of Valencia (CV-32 - A-3) 22 km / 288 M

3) Extension of the A-7/CV-10 in Castellón 366 M

4) A-73 Burgos-Aguilar de Campoo 79 km / 263 M

5) A-32 Linares-Albacete 48 km / 396 M

6) Refurbishment of the A-4 (R-4 Puerto Lápice) 70.5 km / 200 M

7) Refurbishment of the A-4 (in Andalusia) 146 km / 340 M

8) Dualling of the N-2 Girona-La Jonquera 38 km / 199 M


The total amount of the plan is 5,000 million € for about 20 projects, but there seems to be some controversy as for which ones should be included in the plan.

Some widenings to 3 lanes are also being considered:
* A-7 Crevillent and Orihuela-Benferri
* A-62 around Valladolid
* A-66 in Asturias
* A-8 or A-67 in Cantabria


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## ChrisZwolle

What is that new bypass of Valencia project? Is it CV-50?


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## arctic_carlos

^^ No, it’s just the widening of the current bypass (A-7) by adding new side lanes, in order to have a configuration similar to AP-7 + B-30 in Barcelona bypass.


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## ChrisZwolle

Aha. A-7 carries a huge amount of truck traffic, but most of it seems to have an origin/destination within 100 km of Valencia, probably tied to the citrus industry.


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## alserrod

and automotive. There's a factory 25ish km southern Valencia


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## Highway89

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ No, it’s just the widening of the current bypass (A-7) by adding new side lanes, in order to have a configuration similar to AP-7 + B-30 in Barcelona bypass.


Ah, that makes sense. The article didn't specify so I thought it was a new bypass. This other article, however, clearly refers to the existing bypass: http://www.lasprovincias.es/comunitat/contratistas-piden-plan-20171128152122-nt.html

It says that the current bypass has an AADT of 96k (with peaks up to 120k) and a 29.5% of truck share.


Also, there seems to be a lot of motorway projects around Murcia: The Arco Noroeste (new bypass of the A-30), the Arco Norte (new bypass of the A-7), the Autovía del Bancal (kind of an eastern bypass) and the widening of the A-7 on both sides of the metropolitan area.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *FV2:* south of Costa Calma – north of El Salmo 4.4km (? to Late 2017) – ? – map


Any news on this?


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Nothing. hno:


----------



## arctic_carlos

Highway89 said:


> Ah, that makes sense. The article didn't specify so I thought it was a new bypass. This other article, however, clearly refers to the existing bypass: http://www.lasprovincias.es/comunitat/contratistas-piden-plan-20171128152122-nt.html
> 
> It says that the current bypass has an AADT of 96k (with peaks up to 120k) and a 29.5% of truck share.


After doing some research I've managed to find two renderings of the planned widening of A-7:



















In the last picture you can see that in some sections the new lanes for local traffic will be built on the same side of the current motorway (which will be left for long-distance traffic). That's mostly due to lack of space to build one carriageway on each side of the current motorway.

Besides, south of A-3 there would actually be a new alignment, if they ever decide to widen that part of A-7:










Source: http://www.levante-emv.com/comunita...sbloquea-circunvalacion-valencia/1296198.html


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## CNGL

Where it says "Sagunt" it should say "Morvedre" :troll:.


Highway89 said:


> According to the press, at least 8 projects of the Plan Extraordinario de Inversión en Carreteras (PIC) could be awarded this year via _payment for availability_ deals.
> 
> 6) Refurbishment of the A-4 (R-4 Puerto Lápice) 70.5 km / 200 M
> 
> 7) Refurbishment of the A-4 (in Andalusia) 146 km / 340 M


So they are restarting the old refurbishment plan. Great. Only A-1 between El Molar and Santo Tome del Puerto and A-3 between Madrid and Tarancon remain without news.


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## alserrod

Should they let an exit from AP-7 to A-23 there (where it is yet free), they will avoid congestion and save some km.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-226 Teruel*

A couple of photos of A-226 between Fortanete and Allepuz in Teruel province. I like desolate landscapes like this.


A-226 Teruel-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-226 Teruel-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-226 Teruel-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-226 Teruel-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-226 Teruel-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-226 Teruel-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Highway89

Did you continue up to Teruel through the Cabigordo pass, near Corbalán? I loved that part, it looks even more desolate.


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## ChrisZwolle

I took A-228 south from Allepuz, to Mora de Rubielos. A-228 is partially a very outdated road (now to be upgraded) and partially a decent road. There is virtually no traffic on it.

Almost any road in Teruel province is scenic. The area between N-420 and A-226 also seems worth a visit. But my campsite at that time was in Viver (Valencia) so I didn't want to go too far away. There aren't many campsites in Teruel province. Tourism is very underdeveloped in that province.


----------



## CNGL

I have that area unexplored as well. I only drove N-420 last year. Teruel doesn't exist (it's our version of Bielefeld after all xD).


----------



## Attus

I see some "recommended speed" (blue square, white number) signs in Chris' pictures. Are they common in Spain?


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes, they are all over the place, to the point of being overkill.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I took A-228 south from Allepuz, to Mora de Rubielos. A-228 is partially a very outdated road (now to be upgraded) and partially a decent road. There is virtually no traffic on it.
> 
> Almost any road in Teruel province is scenic. The area between N-420 and A-226 also seems worth a visit. But my campsite at that time was in Viver (Valencia) so I didn't want to go too far away. There aren't many campsites in Teruel province. Tourism is very underdeveloped in that province.


A-228 is the shortest road between Valencia and Zaragoza indeed, even if I would never get it (takes several mountain passes).

It is refurbished from Gudar village through south. The rest of road... I have read several news about new road but still no works... but guess it will be one out of next ones.

Scenic roads anywhere in that area. Anyway, next time go to Valdelinares ski resort (1992m osl) and later highest municipality in Aragón (Valdelinares, 1692m in town hall).

There are two points where you can reach and see the sea even so far away. One of them, northern Nogueruelas, near km.9 just try to find the sea (not easy)

Second one (deviated with an unpaved path for a while)
From here https://www.google.es/maps/@40.3094...uzhsmcgYEop1VISXvsZA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es
if sunny, you will see sea, although distance


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## ChrisZwolle

AP-6 has become inaccessible due to heavy snow.


----------



## verreme

^^ That is a myth. It has never worked.


----------



## Peines

verreme said:


> ^^ That is a myth. It has never worked.


Not a myth: *all official documents in Spain must be in Spanish* (at least).

That fine must be void.


----------



## verreme

^^ I have yet to see a fine that's declared void because of this reason


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## alserrod

verreme said:


> ^^ I have yet to see a fine that's declared void because of this reason


In that case, it is not a fine, it is an advice!!!. This is, as said, driver not available when ticket delivered.

That is only an advice and they must send you by mail. Should you are in the car, it is enough to give a written bulletin in hand and tell you your rights (days to pay with discount, where to apply any form and so on). But the fault you may go to court or your rights must be told/writen in the language you wanna. In case of a region with a second official language, they must tell you in the language you request (even regional language, even Spanish). Should they do not, you can request to be declared void because your rights and fault weren't told you (or not understood).



A long time ago, Catalan police took all bulletins in their language and made some samples in a looooot of languages. They have a lot of foreing drivers in their roads and they always had copies of the bulletin in any language (about 20 different languages).

Is it cool... but they are NOT requested to give you a fine in Catalan and a sample translation into Hungarian or Danish, for instance but it is MANDATORY to give a copy in Spanish if requested. Should they do not do it, reason to void.

It was known that some patrols called drivers and Spanish copies were gone because not enough (is it so hard to guess that they will give 100 copies more in Spanish than in Danish and... no problem if no copy in Danish but legal problems if no copies in Spanish?).
No driver went out without copies because... they always called nearest patrol to ask for more copies.

Easy solution: take more copies in Spanish


----------



## Corvinus

To be fair, the reverse of the fine had information in both Catalan and Castellano.
I hardly believe it was just an "advice". In that case, there would be no amount indicated.

The question of validity did not really come up, since the vehicle was registered outside Spain and there was never anything sent by mail to the owner afterwards. I suspect the fine has prescribed since.


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## OriK

^^ also if you argue that the fine is not in Spanish they would probably just resend it translated.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

AP-36 has now also been taken over by SEITT S.A. At 150 kilometers, it is the longest toll road to be taken over by the government. The plan is to retender these motorways.

http://fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPrensa/N...pista-AP/a2741321-750e-42e0-91ca-a483ee4e5478

New website: http://www.seitt-ap36.es/


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## ChrisZwolle

*N-502*

N-502 in southern Ávila province, towards the Sierra de Gredos.


N-502 Sierra de Gredos-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-502 Sierra de Gredos-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-502 Sierra de Gredos-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-502 Sierra de Gredos-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*CL-626 Guardo*

I stumbled upon this project, a bypass of Guardo (Palencia province). It includes a large bridge, 840 meters long and 75 meters high. Construction started in March 2011 and was planned to be completed in September 2013. However a worker was killed in an incident in April 2013, the works have not resumed since...


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## CNGL

IIRC the Eastern part of it (that's it, CL-615 towards Aguilar de Campoo, not including the bridge) was then made into a temporary road in record time after a landslide blocked CL-615 at the entrance of Guardo. This happened in 2016.


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## alserrod

For a while, coming from Palencia towards Guardo road broken down. They prepared bypass to be used and avoid works and dangers in road.
It was a detour for almost all trajects but for some small ones (from Palencia to Cervera avoiding Guardo) they saved time

Current road was set on again and... by pass cut to traffic again!!!!
I do not know why they never prepared it to traffic, just for these ones when works weren't not only finished but under service for some months


Bridge... guess five years, at least, to keep on again


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## arctic_carlos

*A-76*

The easternmost section of A-76 (6.4 km) is now under public information.










http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...oyecto-A/546e9a65-4345-430d-8a47-9af9d4304984

When completed, A-76 will link A-6 near Ponferrada with A-52 near Ourense, thus creating a third motorway connection between Galicia and Castilla y León.

It will mostly follow the existing corridor of N-120.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-54 Lugo - Santiago*

The final 16.4 kilometer segment of A-54 started construction today, between Melide and Árzua. The cost is € 103 million (€ 6.3 million per kilometer). It has 19 bridges. This is the last segment of A-54 between Lugo and Santiago de Compostela to start construction. 

low-res map of Fomento:


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## CNGL

And the A–21 gap on the North side of Yesa reservoir is now contracted! Currently traffic has to detour to the curvy N–240 between West of Sigües and Tiermas, 6 damn km, but after 10 min of torture one is back to the motorway all the way to Noain.









*A–21:* Tiermas – west of Sigües 6km (Late 2018 to 2022) – ? – map (Not sure of exact completion date)


----------



## Highway89

CNGL said:


> Yesterday I went to Highway89's territory. I was on a Riojan "orange" route (LR-1xx) for the first time ever, and on two of them: LR-134 and LR-123. I also visited to the least populated municipality in Spain (or to be more exact one of the two claimants of the title as there is a tie), Villarroya, where election days last only one minute. Now I regret having turned South to Cervera del Rio Alhama instead of taking LR-285 into Navarre, due to the curves just past Cervera.


Today I also drove the LR-134 and LR-123. The LR-123 between Arnedo and Villarroya is quite a beautiful drive.


LR-123 PK 40 D by J GM, en Flickr


LR-123 PK 38 D 2 by J GM, en Flickr

As you said, the area is quite sparsely populated. The road passes next to the abandoned village of Turruncún (I guess one of the reasons for the abandonment was its name :troll: )


LR-123 PK 37 C by J GM, en Flickr

More pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157691689455002


----------



## clickgr

CNGL said:


> And the A–21 gap on the North side of Yesa reservoir is now contracted! Currently traffic has to detour to the curvy N–240 between West of Sigües and Tiermas, 6 damn km, but after 10 min of torture one is back to the motorway all the way to Noain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *A–21:* Tiermas – west of Sigües 6km (Late 2018 to 2022) – ? – map (Not sure of exact completion date)


When this part is it expected to be finished and when the rest of the under construction parts of the A-21 and A-23 on the way between Pamplona and Huesca? 

I will be very happy if one day I can fly to Pamplona instead of using Barcelona Airport when I travel from Germany to Huesca.


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## alserrod

If I were you, I would fly since today. This is... there are some pending small streches to be built. We do know that around Lanave is to be open in next months, soon from east of Jaca and the next one will be this to continue with long tunnel on Monrepos pass.

Obviously you will not have 100% motorway but will be faster Pamplona-Huesca than Barcelona-Huesca (where you do not have full motorway, A-22 remains without finishing and no news, bad news!!!)


In addition, you can consider flying from Charleroi to Zaragoza or from anywhere to Madrid and High speed train. One per day, two on weekends Madrid-Huesca, easy to shuttle Madrid-Zaragoza (one every hour) and regional train or bus (bus every hour, peak hours every 30min, and to be taken in same building).
In Huesca station you can hire cars


----------



## CNGL

clickgr said:


> When this part is it expected to be finished and when the rest of the under construction parts of the A-21 and A-23 on the way between Pamplona and Huesca?
> 
> I will be very happy if one day I can fly to Pamplona instead of using Barcelona Airport when I travel from Germany to Huesca.


Where in Huesca province you go? If you go to Huesca city you can already fly to Noain (I prefer to name that town over Pamplona as I like it ) and avoid the curves on N-240 near Yesa by taking this route: AP-15/N-121 (depending on if you want to pay a toll, AP-15 around Tafalla is toll free), NA-5330, NA-1240, NA-128 which becomes A-1201 upon reaching Aragon, A-127, A-125, A-124, A-1209 and A-23. I always take this route when returning from Pamplona, they are all good roads, and also gets one to every road category that exists in Spain  (even though the "green" category has not existed in Navarre since the mid 2000s).


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## MichiH

^^ clickgr is from Friedrichshafen (Lake Constance) and there is a direct connection from Friedrichshafen Airport (FDH) to Pamplona Airport.


----------



## MichiH

*A54*



ChrisZwolle said:


> The final 16.4 kilometer segment of A-54 started construction today, between Melide and Árzua. The cost is € 103 million (€ 6.3 million per kilometer). It has 19 bridges. This is the last segment of A-54 between Lugo and Santiago de Compostela to start construction.
> 
> low-res map of Fomento:


To be completed by 2022. Source.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is there a reason why A-231 (Burgos - León) wasn't developed as a part of the RCE (national road network)?
> 
> Did Castilla y León not want to wait on the development from the national government? This autovía strikes me as a bit odd in the network. It replaced a carretera nacional (N-120). Construction began in the mid-1990s, which is considerably earlier than most other large autovía projects by autonomous communities, except perhaps A-92 in Andalusia. Most autonomous autovías were built after 2000.
> 
> Are there still plans to transfer it to the RCE and renumber it A-12?


Another oddity is I've been on A-231 recently... though not between Burgos and Leon. There's another road with exactly the same number in Northeastern Teruel province. So I wonder how the Leon-Burgos motorway got its number.


----------



## sotonsi

^^ Road numbers aren't necessarily unique in Spain.


----------



## alserrod

sotonsi said:


> ^^ Road numbers aren't necessarily unique in Spain.


Don't tell that point to CNGL please :nuts::nuts::nuts:

In the Spanish thread guess the road he uploaded "one road" with two pictures and they were same number and milestone despite different place!!!

Now... guess the road!!


----------



## CNGL

^^ I'm currently playing a doctored sign taking advantage of something . I'll explain it once it's guessed.

In other news, a favorable EIS has been issued for the A-15 between Fuensauco and Agreda West in Soria province, so the project can continue. The 34.2 strecht has been divided into two sections at Villar del Campo. The Agreda bypass has been built for quite some time now, but as the exact length of A-15 between Los Rabanos (South of Soria) and Agreda West was unknown at the time it inherited N-122's kmposts, which are in the wrong way with respect to the rest of A-15. This section was originally to be tolled (as AP-15), however they decided to build a toll-free motorway instead.


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## alserrod

I guess Agreda bypass was built in 2007. They needed a bypass and directly they made motorway, therefore, 10ish km motorway


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## CNGL

Okay, here is the picture I've been playing in Guess the Highway Spain:









Since this is a junction with A-231 I deleted everything on the sign (except the red rectangle as a hint), and then put Burgos and Leon from elsewhere. But, as you can see (the sign is white, not blue), this is not the motorway but the "orange" road. This is actually on N-232 near Valdealgorfa. I passed through here on Good Friday.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

sotonsi said:


> ^^ Road numbers aren't necessarily unique in Spain.


It seems though, that the "red básica" of the autonomous communities are based on unique numbers. For example the A-xxx series in Aragón don't conflict with the A-xxx series in Andalucía. This is probably based on the old carretera comarcal network, which had zones similar to the N-roads. 

However Castilla y León implemented some A-xxx numbers that conflict with the rest of Spain. A-231 is the best known but they also planned A-125 and A-403.


----------



## OBAuto

A video about N-332 on the section between El Campello and Benidorm (Llevant).





by OBAuto on YouTube


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> It seems though, that the "red básica" of the autonomous communities are based on unique numbers. For example the A-xxx series in Aragón don't conflict with the A-xxx series in Andalucía. This is probably based on the old carretera comarcal network, which had zones similar to the N-roads.
> 
> However Castilla y León implemented some A-xxx numbers that conflict with the rest of Spain. A-231 is the best known but they also planned A-125 and A-403.


All A-xxx duplications I know involve Aragon with either Alava, Andalusia (only 4-digits) or Castile and Leon (only A-231). I know some provinces use CV-xxx for its provincial roads (Zaragoza is one) and thus may cause duplication with the Valencian Community (I know for sure there are two CV-620s). And then there's Ma-20 and MA-20.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^:nuts:


----------



## CNGL

I forgot to add N-622, N-633 and N-636. There are also two pairs of all three. In all pairs one is truly National (i.e. owned and maintained by Fomento) and the other is not (all of them in Basque Country). I don't include N-121 and N-240 because they are actually related (though I refer to Fomento's N-121 as N-121-C).

I've been out this weekend, this time on the pine forests of Northwestern Soria province. So far this year I've got new "orange" roads in four different regions. And speaking of duplicates, here's another one. This is A-1204 through Rivas, Aragon; there's another A-1204 in Eastern Andalusia (the old alignment of A-334 through Albox), both have arisen from different numbering systems. It also shows another thing that bothers me, as I've seen just plain "Rivas" when referring to Rivas Vaciamadrid (a Southeastern suburb of Madrid), however there's a "just plain" Rivas near Ejea de los Caballeros, Zaragoza (which I know as "Rivas by Ejea de los Caballeros" for disambiguation purposes).


----------



## Uppsala

Is this the original exitnumbers in Spain? No symbol? Just a text "SALIDA" and the number.

When did they started with the modern symbol for exitnumers in Spain?


----------



## alserrod

I reckon they started with 1st "autovia" generation.

I explain it. With first tolled motorways, before planning it it was known where they went to build an exit. Therefore, all exits had their number. If you travel within several tolled motorways nowadays you can still see they have their own number. Maybe there are extra exits, with -A or so... but not so many.

When new free highways were built, in most of cases, as known, old roads were used as first platform. That made having so many exits... as crosses had former road. Therefore they started pointing with milestones as exit number. Just because it was really hard to know how many exits they had and... a new exit will change those numbers.

but as an example, randomly AP-2 in Pina de Ebro
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.523...4!1sKtP3N7IqAGzpJOWeEIAc3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Exit n.2

Some km before, exit to ARA-A-1, opened in 2008 is 1B
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.581...4!1siYgBBnEDjvtGnKvsZwHq5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

(exit 1 is where toll starts)


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## Uppsala

alserrod said:


> I reckon they started with 1st "autovia" generation.
> 
> I explain it. With first tolled motorways, before planning it it was known where they went to build an exit. Therefore, all exits had their number. If you travel within several tolled motorways nowadays you can still see they have their own number. Maybe there are extra exits, with -A or so... but not so many.
> 
> When new free highways were built, in most of cases, as known, old roads were used as first platform. That made having so many exits... as crosses had former road. Therefore they started pointing with milestones as exit number. Just because it was really hard to know how many exits they had and... a new exit will change those numbers.
> 
> but as an example, randomly AP-2 in Pina de Ebro
> https://www.google.com/maps/@41.523...4!1sKtP3N7IqAGzpJOWeEIAc3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> Exit n.2
> 
> Some km before, exit to ARA-A-1, opened in 2008 is 1B
> https://www.google.com/maps/@41.581...4!1siYgBBnEDjvtGnKvsZwHq5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> (exit 1 is where toll starts)



Thank you! So the modern signs in Spain started around 1990?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Repsol vs. Cepsa*

The vast majority of the Spanish fuel stations appear to be either a Repsol or Cepsa. 

Which do you prefer? 

Most Repsol's I've been to were newer, cleaner and better equipped than the Cepsa's I've visited. So my vote goes to Repsol.


----------



## ajch

Repsol also, but only when i drive out of my living area. Where I live I have an agro cooperative that also sell gas, and its cheap and good (repsol brand or cepsa brand). Full tank allow me to do 1000 kms.

Reason: Repsol allow to pay with the "El Corte Ingles" shopping card, and this card delay the charge in the bank for a month. So I can divide the expenses of trips in two different months.

And also inside Repsol network (repsol, petronor, campsa) I try to use the one with the cheap prices. I use one app for that.

In Madrid I use a Repsol in the A-4 Exit 29
https://www.google.es/maps/@40.1657896,-3.669064,18z?hl=en


----------



## OBAuto

^^ I also prefer Repsol because allows paying with "El Corte Inglés" shopping card and you earn the 4% of the total price of each refueling as a discount for purchases at El Corte Inglés supermarket, Hipercor, Supercor or Opencor. 

The reason why there are lots of Repsol fuel stations is because Repsol bought Campsa and Petronor and lots of this fuel stations were rebranded to Repsol, but I don't know why some still maintain old branding, specially Petronor which is fairly easy to see.


----------



## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> Most Repsol's I've been to were newer, cleaner and better equipped than the Cepsa's I've visited. So my vote goes to Repsol.


Cepsa Gib is particularly horrible, while Respol's are usually quite fine and modern inside. What's fascinating for me is the huge price differential between self service and normal petrol stations in Spain - I saw a differential of nearly 16 cents in Fuengirola between two stations that were 200m apart. 

On a related note, just WTF is with the petrol stations in Spain at night? I was trying to fill up with fuel before returning a hire car, and they were all closed at night except for self-service. It wouldn't be a problem, but you had to apparently choose how much fuel you wanted before filling up, which...well, I had no idea whatsoever how much I needed. The guy in the BP petrol station was clueless, and said that we just had to 'guess' how much we needed. Any idea if this was just a language problem, or is it an actual problem?

Even on the A-7 service station at Arroyo de la Miel, the Respol there was shut between 10-6am! Coming from Poland, where petrol stations are open and staffed 24/7 in many places, it was an absolute shock. I thought for sure that the BP at Malaga Airport would be open, but that was also closed.

==

On unrelated notes, I've been driving around Andalusia again, and the A-7 is an absolute disaster between Fuengirola and Estepona. 

The "special fare" is ridiculous on the AP-7, especially between Fuengirola and Marbella. I barely saw any traffic enter the tolled sections, while the ridiculous destruction of the old N-340 means that the AP-7/A-7 is becoming dangerously overcrowded at times between Malaga and Fuengirola. 

But something else that I can't understand - what's going on with the road numbers in Malaga? Why does the AP-7 head towards the MA-20/21 junction instead of following the A-7 round the Malaga outer bypass?

More moans to come...


----------



## alserrod

Uppsala said:


> Thank you! So the modern signs in Spain started around 1990?


I guess so but not 100% sure. Do not know if small highways had those milestones exit numbers before 1990, but they were not so many.

All motorways build before 1990 have exit numbers (and later exits like 1A or so to double some one else between 1 and 2). I am not sure about next tolled ones


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> The vast majority of the Spanish fuel stations appear to be either a Repsol or Cepsa.
> 
> Which do you prefer?
> 
> Most Repsol's I've been to were newer, cleaner and better equipped than the Cepsa's I've visited. So my vote goes to Repsol.


Laboil :troll:. A local unmanned fuel station. I have a client card so I get even cheaper gas on top of the already lower prices compared to Repsol and Cepsa. Before I switched to the local provider I used Repsol, and at the time their station off A-23 in Gurrea de Gallego was cheaper than the ones in Huesca, so I refueled there.

PS: should have I to refuel elsewhere, I'd go to a Repsol.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's quite a significant slide over both the old road and the new temporary road. This will take some time to mitigate. The cause is heavy rains / snowmelt?










A-132 is not exactly a very good detour route for high volumes of traffic:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Evidently this bridge across the Peña reservoir on A-132 dates back to 1913. That must be one of the oldest non-medieval, larger bridges still in use on a main road in Spain?


----------



## alserrod

About river, this is one out of a lot of pictures take this morning. Top flood will take saturday night, therefore, more pictures on sunday-monday










It is a village located 40ish km besides river before Zaragoza

Spotted today


Sunday was ready to have yearly marathon in Zaragoza but cancelled too to use all forces for river overflood too.


In picture, take a look to tower ahead.


Now let's compare with February 2015










That tower is in the middle of the picture. It is from city centre spotted to west. Left middle-down white building is railway station. In the middle of overflood you can see.... Z-40 bridge!!!! (wasn't cut off to traffic indeed!!!!!!)

It is expected to have a similar situation


----------



## alserrod

About A-132, do not know exact date but Sangüesa (Navarra) brigde is quite similar

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.577...4!1sVHs5ylJCFXs0EaiY2JTqRg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A62:* Nuevo Poblado (P/E border) – Fuentes de Onoro 5km (2nd half 2015 to April 2018) – ? – map


Delayed. To be opened in 2020 now. Source.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*BI-635*

The 703 meter long twin-tube tunnel Urdinbide of BI-635 opened to traffic today. It is part of a 6 kilometer upgrade to de-facto autovía north of Amorebieta. 

http://web.bizkaia.eus/es/web/area-...erviceportlet_redirect=/es/web/area-de-prensa

I drove this road last year on my way from Mundaka to France, I was not expecting this short autovía near Amorebieta.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The 703 meter long twin-tube tunnel Urdinbide of BI-635 opened to traffic today. It is part of a 6 kilometer upgrade to de-facto autovía north of Amorebieta.
> http://web.bizkaia.eus/es/web/area-...erviceportlet_redirect=/es/web/area-de-prensa


The article reports that the entire length is 3.4km from the roundabout. The section opened today has a length of 1.6km. I've measured it on wikimapia and I think it's correct. Construction period of the tunnel was 5 years.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The next phase is a 2.5 km section, which will be largely tunneled. Evidently there are plans to extend it to Muxika or Gernika (Guernica, historically significant town).


----------



## alserrod

N-330 expected more than one week off traffic

Next weekend is a 3days weekend in the region of Aragon and a lot of people was supossed to go to Pyreneed


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The next phase is a 2.5 km section, which will be largely tunneled. Evidently there are plans to extend it to Muxika or Gernika (Guernica, historically significant town).


Only plans or is anything already u/c? It would (generally) be nice if you could indicate your sources. Thanks.


----------



## alserrod

A-132, alternative route for Pyrenees is cut off due to rocks of road.

Central Pyrenees are barely isolated (A-132 and N-330 off for more than one week)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> Only plans or is anything already u/c? It would (generally) be nice if you could indicate your sources. Thanks.


It's planned, they don't have a start date yet: http://www.deia.eus/2018/04/14/bizkaia/la-diputacion-comienza-los-tramites-del-siguiente-tunel


----------



## ChrisZwolle

alserrod said:


> N-330 expected more than one week off traffic
> 
> Next weekend is a 3days weekend in the region of Aragon and a lot of people was supossed to go to Pyreneed


They hope to have a temporary two-way road in place in 10 days: https://www.heraldo.es/noticias/ara...visional-monrepos-antes-dias-1235094-300.html


----------



## alserrod

All roads are off and people doesn't remember that small railway still operates without any problem

Have checked schedules and Canfranc-Jaca-Sabiñanigo-Ayerbe-Huesca-... will arrive at 12:40 on time to Zaragoza this morning, for instance


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> Delayed. To be opened in 2020 now. Source.


I wonder what the status is on the Portuguese side. 

This base imagery in Google Earth from 2016 shows some construction on the Spanish side, but nothing on the Portuguese side. Of course it's 2018 now, but if there is no or little progress on the Portuguese side, that may explain why the Spanish government only allocates small amounts of money towards A-62 construction. There is no point spending a lot of money now only to have the new motorway collecting dust until the Portuguese side is completed.


----------



## pai nosso

^^
There is no progress on the portuguese side. Each year the portuguese goverment promisses to tender the contruction, but so far nothinhg has happened.

As we are going to have national elections in September of 2019, perhaps next year we will Know something.:nuts::nuts:


----------



## CNGL

As explained by alserrod, a rockslide on A-132 has caused Northwestern Huesca province to be further from Huesca city than the furthest out area of Zaragoza province (its Westernmost reaches, about halfway between Huesca and Madrid) for some hours :crazy:. They have already cleared one lane so traffic can alternately pass. It happens another rockslide ocurred in the same area on Thursday, but was already cleared out when N-330 broke apart.


----------



## OBAuto

A video about A-31 _Autovía de Alicante_ on the section between Atalaya del Cañavate (highway start/end and diverging point with A-3) and Albacete.





by OBAuto on YouTube


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-8 Asturias*

Some photos of A-8 in eastern Asturias, from Ribadesella to Unquera.

The landscape is interesting, the mountain ranges look similar to the high Pyrenees or the Alps, while they are only some 700 meters high in reality. The tree line is at 150 meters in some areas. 

1. 

A-8-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2.

A-8-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

A-8-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

A-8-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

A-8-12 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

A-8-13 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

A-8-15 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. 

A-8-23 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. 

A-8-26 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. 

A-8-30 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. 

A-8-33 by European Roads, on Flickr

12. 

A-8-39 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## alserrod

Last 4 km in Asturias direction France were opened in 2014. I crossed there two weeks later another 4 km were in service but still not finished.


----------



## CNGL

And in both Aragon and Castile and Leon, since their regional days were both last Monday, people can decide to have two long weekends of 3 and 4 days respectively _in a row_! I spent the first one in Malaga, unfortunately no new roads for me since I went there by the most hated means by me: the high-speed train. At least I managed to go through the A-357/MA-20 interchange.


CNGL said:


> Fun fact: There were actually two roads numbered Z-310. One of them (N-240, now A-132, to the provincial border towards Riglos railway station) is still numbered that way, the other (N-2, now A-2, to Calatorao) is now part of A-1304.


Now I read the entry for HU-310, it says _De N-240, Lim. Zaragoza, a Estación F. C. Riglos_. So it appears that road was numbered HU-310 all the way to what is now A-132, and Aragon changed the section that is _de iure_, but not _de facto_, in Zaragoza province to Z-310 when the original Z-310 became part of A-1304. Not to mention I've driven both.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N-621*

Some photos of N-621 between Potes and Riaño, on the south side of the Picos de Europa range, in León province.



N-621 Picos de Europa-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-621 Picos de Europa-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-621 Picos de Europa-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-621 Picos de Europa-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-621 Picos de Europa-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-621 Picos de Europa-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some photos of N-621 between Potes and Riaño, on the south side of the Picos de Europa range, in León province.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N-621 Picos de Europa-7 by European Roads, on Flickr



Spotted 13 years ago...


----------



## CNGL

My next big road trip will see me crossing the infamous Etxegarate Etzegarate* pass . Luckily it won't be on the direction of the hairpins, but in the other, towards Donostia/San Sebastian. And I as always I'll be driving my car (van, actually), so no tolls either (maybe there are some trolls).

* The name of the pass was changed based on old documents: back in the 13th Century the pass was mentioned as _Eiçagarate_, which today would be written _Etzegarate_. This was translliterated into Spanish as _Echegárate_ in the 19th Century, which was then translated back into Basque as _Etxegarate_. The "correct" Spanish translation would be _Ecegárate_.


----------



## MichiH

arctic_carlos said:


> the second carriageway of FV1 (in Spain) only opened between Caldereta and Lajares (12 km). The second carriageway between Lajares and Corralejo (6 km) will open later, in late 2017 or early 2018.


The latter was announced to be opened in April according to a news article from Mid March. I think it didn't happen but expect that it might be opened "soon".


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *AG46:* Meira – Domaio 4km (June 2016 to May 2018) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
> *AG46:* Domaio – Domaio (AP9) 3.3km (October 2015 to May 2018) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


According to a news article from early April it was still planned to open the expressway in May but if I got it right, there might be a delay?!?



> Las empresas constructoras de estos dos tramos -Copasa y Dragados- se están encontrando con la dificultad de la intensa lluvia, aunque según las previsiones que maneja la Xunta no impedirán que se cumplan con los plazos establecidos de apertura par el mes de mayo.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ 11 May is the planned opening date: https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/33...zo-abriran-al-trafico-viernes-proxima-semana/


----------



## KRX_69

*Ayamonte - Sanlúcar de Guadiana (07-05-2018)*

*A499*

01.

A-499 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

02.

A-499 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

03.

A-499 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

04.

A-499 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

05.

A-499 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

06.

A-499 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*HU-4401*

07.

HU-4401 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

08.

HU-4401 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

09.

A-499 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

10.

HU-4401 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

11.

HU-4401 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-499*

12.

A-499 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

:cheers:


----------



## Highway89

Some pictures I took today of the *LR-232*, a regional road in La Rioja that connects the *N-111* and the *LR-113* (former C-113) through the 1,412 m high Peña Hincada mountain pass.

1. The first part, between the N-111 and Ortigosa de Cameros, goes around a reservoir and looks like this.

LR-232 PK 1 C by J GM, en Flickr

2.

LR-232 PK 1 D by J GM, en Flickr

3. From Ortigosa de Cameros, as we begin the ascent to Peña Hincada, the road turns into a 4-meter-wide, bumpy track.

LR-232 PK 7 C by J GM, en Flickr

4. Some hairpins have been _chipsealed_ more recently

LR-232 PK 9 D by J GM, en Flickr

5.

LR-232 PK 12 C by J GM, en Flickr

6. Peña Hincada

LR-232 PK 15 C 3 by J GM, en Flickr

7. The pass is named after this stone, which has been there for more than a thousand years.

LR-232 PK 15 Peña Hincada by J GM, en Flickr

8. Looking back. Actually, I came across more horses than cars.

LR-232 PK 15 D 2 by J GM, en Flickr

9. We begin the descent.

LR-232 PK 16 C by J GM, en Flickr

10. The landscape on this side is much more barren. All trees were cut down in the middle ages in order to create pasture land for Merino sheep. Erosion has just made it worse.

LR-232 PK 16 C 2 by J GM, en Flickr

11. 
LR-232 PK 17 C by J GM, en Flickr

12. The sign warning of falling rock has fallen.

LR-232 PK 18 by J GM, en Flickr

13. A couple more hairpins and we make it to Brieva de Cameros.

LR-232 PK 18 4 by J GM, en Flickr

14. From Brieva to the LR-113 the road goes along the river Brieva.

LR-232 PK 24 C by J GM, en Flickr

15. And after 30 km we reach the LR-113.

LR-232 PK 30 C by J GM, en Flickr



More photos are available here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157693458755342


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Cool scenery. La Rioja looks nice, but it's not really well-known beyond the wines I think.


----------



## Suburbanist

Nice mountain road. It does need some repaving.


----------



## verreme

^^ Awesome pictures! They make me want to go there so much.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Cool scenery. La Rioja looks nice, but it's not really well-known beyond the wines I think.


Western La Rioja we could say that A-12 is southbourn of wine area.

This village is where mountains starts and located only 10 km away from that area

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.326...4!1s43vhTtw3k27pfxY1ZXTxsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

There's a small ski resort over there, but the only one in a long distance around


----------



## Highway89

Thanks for the comments! 



ChrisZwolle said:


> Cool scenery. La Rioja looks nice, but it's not really well-known beyond the wines I think.


Well, most of inner Spain is relatively unknown. Even the non-coastal areas of the coastal provinces are little known considering the millions of tourist that stay in the coastal towns. 



alserrod said:


> There's a small ski resort over there, but the only one in a long distance around


The road to the ski resort (LR-416) is fun to drive too and is kept in a better shape than most mountain roads in the region.

LR-416 Valdezcaray 3 by J GM, en Flickr


----------



## Highway89

After the LR-232 I took the LR-113 southbound. This stretch of road was refurbished in two phases between 2005 and 2009 IIRC.

1.

LR-113 PK 31 C by J GM, en Flickr

2.

LR-113 PK 30 D by J GM, en Flickr

3. A rest area where the old road used to be.
LR-113 PK 29 D by J GM, en Flickr

4. I stopped there in order to visit this medieval bridge with a curtain of ivy.

Puente de Hiedra by J GM, en Flickr

This bridge is featured on the logo of the regional government:









5.

LR-113 PK 25 D by J GM, en Flickr

6. Venta de Goyo.

LR-113 PK 25 D 2 by J GM, en Flickr

7. From here to the next junction (LR-334), the road looks like this. Refurbishment works are supposed to start this year.

LR-113 PK 24 D by J GM, en Flickr

More pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157694877021741


----------



## Highway89

The last part of our trip is the LR-333, which connects the LR-113 with the N-111 a bit further south than the LR-232.

1.

LR-333 PK 33 D by J GM, en Flickr


2. A nice rest area between Viniegra de Abajo and Viniegra de Arriba

LR-333 PK 29 D by J GM, en Flickr


3. A very twisty stretch inside a canyon.

LR-333 PK 28 D by J GM, en Flickr


4. Looking back after we crossed Viniegra de Arriba.

LR-333 PK 17 C 2 by J GM, en Flickr


5. The 1,592 m high Montenegro mountain Pass, which is also the border between Castilla y León and La Rioja.

Puerto de Montenegro 4 by J GM, en Flickr


6. The beautiful village of Montenegro de Cameros. The road is still LR-333, despite the fact that we are not in La Rioja anymore.

LR-333 PK 11 D by J GM, en Flickr


7. From Montenegro to the border with La Rioja the road has been renumbered to SO-830 and some green stickers have been placed over the yellow kilometre posts.

SO-830 PK 29 C by J GM, en Flickr


8. We enter La Rioja again.

LR-333 PK 6 D by J GM, en Flickr


9. Villoslada de Cameros.

LR-333 PK 3 D by J GM, en Flickr


10. From here to the N-111 the road becomes wider.

LR-333 PK 2 D by J GM, en Flickr

More pictures here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157693482260162


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice!

I wonder why La Rioja is a separate autonomous community and not a part of Castilla y León. It is my understanding that it was historically divided by Burgos and Soria, which are both part of CyL.


----------



## Highway89

Prepare for a long post...


"Rioja" was originally a geographical term that referred to certain lands of the upper Ebro Valley. Nowadays some of those lands belong to Burgos (Riojilla Burgalesa) and Álava (Rioja Alavesa). See this map from 1769: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Mapa_de_La_Rioja_de_Tomás_López_1769.jpg

In the middle ages, La Rioja was a disputed territory between the kingdoms of Navarre and Castile. In fact the Peña Hincada (see post #8108 photo #7) was used to mark the border between the two kingdoms. 


Geographically, La Rioja is located in the Ebro basin, unlike most of Castilla y León, which lies in the Duero basin. In 1833, trying to rationalise the territorial division of Spain, the current provinces were created and most of La Rioja was included in the _Provincia de Logroño_. 

This division had some mistakes, however. For instance, Montenegro de Cameros (post #8115, photo #6) is separated by the rest of the province of Soria by the 1,753 m high Santa Inés pass (as you can see in the background of the photo), while it's just some minutes away from Villoslada following the river. In fact, they have the same post code (26) and phone prefix (941) as La Rioja, because telegraph and telephone lines arrived there first from La Rioja.











> 1. Ebro River. 2. Piqueras Pass. 3. Conchas de Haro. 4. Iberian Mountain Range. 5. Oncala Pass. 6. Cantabria and Codés Mountain Ranges. 7. Alhama Valley. 8. Linares Valley. 9. Cidacos Valley. 10. Jubera Valley. 11. Leza Valley. 12. Iregua Valley. 13. Najerilla Valley. 14. Oja Valley. 15. Tirón Valley. 16. Logroño.



When the Spanish autonomous communities were being created in the late 1970s, people of the _Provincia de Logroño_ demanded an autonomous region. First, the name of the province was changed to _Provincia de La Rioja_ and a year later it was granted autonomy.



Culturally (accent, traditional dances, food) La Rioja is closer to the south of Navarre and part of Aragón. But of course we also have things in common with Burgos and Soria. La Rioja is a mix of all its surrounding provinces but at the same time it's none of them


----------



## alserrod

+1 for explanations.

In addition, territory was shared by Navarre and Castille, but more relation with Burgos rather than Soria indeed. They set final Castillian bounds and Navarre was conquered by Castille in the early 16th century.

Logroño, the capital, is bounding at the same time with Basque country and Navarre. From city centre, crossing river, 4 km northwest you have Basque country and 4 km northeast you have Navarre. I remember last year the cycling Spanish tour passed besides the tripoint, even when few people know it.

When regions were created, some out of them got to be an unique province region. It was the case of them

Well-known because wines, unknown because mountains, they aren't Pyrenees but they have wonderful landscapes, and in Iberian mountains, difference between valley (wines) and mountain can be 5 km or so.

It is quite small, second last region in land (first is Balearic islands and will never grow, obviously), and last in population.
They share a lot of costumes even with Navarre, Basque country, Aragon and maybe more with Castilla despite it is a different valley.

As a hint, first (oldest) written texts even in Basque and in Spanish were found in a monestry in this region.


----------



## Nolke

The old jurisdictional-historical borders within the former crown of Castile, dating back to the middle ages, have been progressively reajusted to fit geographical, functionally meaningful regions. That's why you can have some of the oldest parts of the kingdom of Castile united with some of the oldest parts of the kingdom of León in a single region today. La Rioja (not the current autonomous community, but the historical region of that name) being a different geographical region (a wide valley between the openness of the Duero and the Ebro plains, not properly belonging [geographically] to neither of the two), it just made sense as a different administrative region. For the same reason Cantabria isn't part of CyL either, etc. It's a historical process of administrative boundaries adjusting to geographical barriers (a process that began in the late middle ages, as seen in cases like, for example, the fragmentation of the kingdom of León in three geographical parts, each divided by a mountain range from the central one).


----------



## adevahi

In the division of regions during the franquism, La Rioja was part of the same entity than Soria and Burgos (Castilla la Vieja, which is some kind of predecessor of Castilla y León):


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-76*

The plans have been published for an 8.5 kilometer section of A-76 in Ourense province, between A Veiga de Cascallá and O Barco de Valdeorras. The project is mainly an upgrade of the existing N-120 to an autovía. N-120 already is a high-standard road in this area, with 2+1 lanes and tight interchanges. 

The cost is estimated at € 41.8 million (€ 4.9 million per kilometer).

The plans can be found here:

https://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LAN...IUDADANO/PARTICIPACION_PUBLICA/T2-OR-5120.htm


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-11*

Plans have also been approved for a 42.6 kilometer section of A-11 between Castrillo de la Vega and Quintanilla de Arriba. They call it a duplication of N-122 with a bypass at Peñafiel, but the map below shows that most of A-11 will be constructed on a new alignment. 

The estimated cost is € 325 million including VAT (€ 7.6 million per kilometer).

If I'm correct this means that all remaining sections of A-11 between Aranda de Duero and Valladolid are now approved.


----------



## alserrod

In Spanish threads, streches proposed from Peñafiel to west has been debated. Two options, 
- direct one
- a little detour to save wine areas

the hint is that is is a high-power wine area. Maybe the most known and expensive wine (over you can find in restaurants, not about those small caves with specific wines) is done 2 km northern Peñafiel, and those lands could cost more than if destroying part of a city to build a motorway in the middle.


In other words... it is said that in Spain, land cost is so small in country that it makes motorways quite cheaper than in the rest of countries
THIS is one out of those exemptions depending of traject chosen


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I was reading up to that. The A-11 construction had people concerned in the early 2000s, I found some articles from 2002 that discussed the impact of N-122 duplication on the Ribera del Duero wine production as opposed to an alignment further away.

For example: http://www.abc.es/hemeroteca/histor...viñedos-para-la-autovia-del-duero_110798.html

At € 7.6 million per km, A-11 is on the higher side of cost for a rural Meseta autovía, which typically cost 3 - 6 million per kilometer if no major bridge or tunnelworks are involved.


----------



## alserrod

Amazon says only 2 units on stock,

https://www.amazon.es/Vega-Sicilia-...D=31E9%2BJvaY4L&preST=_SY445_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

(and not a fake price, in a high-level restaurant it can be doubled even in the area)

Just calculate price of lands to make that wine. They are located northern Peñafiel (from its castle it is possible to see all of them)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-73*

Minister of Fomento, Iñigo de la Serna, has announced this evening that A-73 will become a part of the PIC, the extraordinary road investment plan.

https://twitter.com/idlserna/status/995002292876316672

It is a 61.4 kilometer section of A-73 between Quintanaortuño and Aguilar de Campóo that will be constructed as a PPP project with a duration of 30 years. After completion, the concessionaire will operate the entire A-73 from Burgos to Aguilar de Campóo.

This article explains it: https://www.burgosconecta.es/provincia/fomento-apuesta-contrato-20180511191755-nt.html


----------



## ajch

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was reading up to that. The A-11 construction had people concerned in the early 2000s, I found some articles from 2002 that discussed the impact of N-122 duplication on the Ribera del Duero wine production as opposed to an alignment further away.


I remember signing against that motorway because my siblings asked me to do it, all being wine lovers. Even myself (being more from beer tham wine) knew of the famous Vega-Sicilia wines. We could not destroy that vineyard when we had bad lands south or north that could be used instead.


----------



## alserrod

Remember driving there several years ago and only a part under works. Two years ago, could drive in first (and only) side.

It is fastest way Madrid-Santander and full free. Therefore, people doesn't bother to drive 1x1 for 60 km


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Gipuzkoa*

AP-8 in Gipuzkoa used to have sequential exit numbering, while Bizkaia had distance-based exit numbering. 

Gipuzkoa switched to distance-based exit numbering in 2015, sometime between June and October that year. I have photos from June that show the old sequential exit numbering while Street View from October shows stickers with distance-based exit numbering.

They even did not change this old sign at Zarautz:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-12*

The A-12 exit numbering west of Logroño has been changed in 2016 or 2017. The exit numbering used to run from 8 to 44 from N-232 to Santo Domingo de la Calzada. It has been changed sometime between August 2016 and September 2017 to match the exit numbering of the Pamplona - Logroño section. Google Maps has it on Street View, but the new exit numbering is not yet implemented in Google Maps itself.


----------



## Highway89

^^ Yes, to be more precise it was changed in November or December 2016: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=137330370&postcount=940


----------



## Highway89

I still have some pictures of the N-111 from the other day.

1. The junction between the N-111 and the LR-333 is now (after Piqueras tunnel was opened) halfway between Soria and Logroño.

N-111 PK 278 D 2 by J GM, en Flickr


2. 

N-111 PK 278 C 2 by J GM, en Flickr


3. Heading towards Logroño

N-111 PK 280 C by J GM, en Flickr


4. 

N-111 PK 281 C by J GM, en Flickr


5.

N-111 PK 281 C 2 by J GM, en Flickr


6. Crossing the river Iregua at Villanueva de Cameros. 

N-111 PK 283 C 2 by J GM, en Flickr


7. The next village we cross is Pradillo. There are 14 benches with old advertisements (7 on each side). The pelota court wall was inaugurated on the 18th September 1935, according to an inscription on top of it. I guess the benches were made around that time.

P1018755 by J GM, en Flickr

8. Unfortunately many of the tiles are broken hno:

Garage Elías by J GM, en Flickr

9.

Grand Hotel by J GM, en Flickr


----------



## alserrod

In the A-2 motorway, there were some signs that took 20 years old... When renaming from N-II to A-2, some stick labels where set but no more.

That made ... in the middle of night some signs could be read only with "A-2" and nothing else. Too old and out of date


----------



## Highway89

Provincial roads in Soria. The _Diputación Provincial_ uses purple instead of the traditional yellow.

1. SO-P-6016

SO-P-6016 PK 1 C by J GM, en Flickr

2. SO-P-1004

SO-P-1004 4 by J GM, en Flickr

3. SO-P-1103

SO-P-1103 by J GM, en Flickr


----------



## alserrod

Is it overall record of villages on same sign?


----------



## Highway89

Some photos of the LR-123 (former C-123 from Valverde to Estella) between Arnedo and El Villar de Arnedo (N-232)

1.

LR-123 PK 49 C by J GM, en Flickr

2.

LR-123 PK 50 C by J GM, en Flickr

3. Junction with the LR-134 towards Calahorra

LR-123 PK 52 C by J GM, en Flickr

4.

LR-123 PK 53 C by J GM, en Flickr

5.

LR-123 PK 56 C by J GM, en Flickr


----------



## Highway89

The N-232 is now almost completely empty of trucks. This is the bypass of Ausejo, opened in the early 2000s.

1.

N-232 PK 373 C by J GM, en Flickr


2.

N-232 PK 374 C by J GM, en Flickr


3.

N-232 PK 376 C by J GM, en Flickr


4.

N-232 PK 378 C by J GM, en Flickr


5.

N-232 PK 379 C by J GM, en Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So the AP-68 toll reduction for trucks seems to work?


----------



## alserrod

I drove in february. It was saturday but seemed to work a lot.
Some long distances aren't able to overpass another vehicle nowadays. They had a lot of accidents and banned it.
But I found a barely used road, only a 6 wheels little truck and a bus for service in villages in surroundings appeared. Nothing about long distance trucks or so.


----------



## KRX_69

*Motril - Granada - Sierra Nevada (07.06.2018)*

*GR-14*

01.

GR-14 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

02.

GR-14 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-7*

03.

A-7 - saída A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

04.

A-7 - saída A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-44*

05.

A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

06.

A-44 - saída Vélez de Benaudalla by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

07.

A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

08.

A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

09.

A-44 - saída Vélez de Benaudalla by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

10.

A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

11.

A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

12.

A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

13.

A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

14.

A-44 - saída Izbor by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

15.

A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

16.

A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

17.

A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

18.

A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

19.

A-44 - saída Cónchar by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

20.

A-44 - saída Padul by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

21.

A-44 - saída Granada sur by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

22.

A-44 - saída Granada sur by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-395*

23.

A-395 - saída Huétor-Vega by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

24.

A-395 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

25.

A-395 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

26.

A-395 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

27.

A-395 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

:cheers:


----------



## Aokromes

ChrisZwolle said:


> I see. The previous government was a bit ambiguous over that aspect.


Yeah other paid roads expired the contract but instead remove toll they continued to be paid roads (IE A-8 on basque country)


----------



## Highway89

KRX_69 said:


> *Motril - Granada - Sierra Nevada (07.06.2018)*
> 
> 
> 27.
> 
> A-395 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr
> 
> :cheers:



There still was a lot of snow in Sierra Nevada those days. This is what the road to the Veleta peak looked like:


















Source: https://twitter.com/websierranevada/status/1004351413122748416


----------



## Highway89

Some photos of the *AP-68* between Logroño and Haro.


1. Entering on the exit #12A (Logroño Sur)

AP-68 entrada 12A 2 by J GM, en Flickr


2. Weirdly enough, Bilbao is not signed as a control city on distance signs. Instead, Burgos and Vitoria are -as well as the next exit: Navarrete.

AP-68 PK 126 D by J GM, en Flickr


3. There are distance signs for Santander, Valladolid and Madrid

AP-68 PK 123 D by J GM, en Flickr


4. Passing below the *A-12*. There's no direct connection with it. You have to take the *LR-137* for a few km.

AP-68 PK 119 D by J GM, en Flickr


5. The Sierra de Cantabria is always in the background

AP-68 PK 117 D by J GM, en Flickr

6. We're about to cross the river Najerilla

AP-68 PK 105 D by J GM, en Flickr

7. Exit #9: *N-126* to Haro

AP-68 PK 88 D by J GM, en Flickr


Now the way back:

8. The clouds hanging over the Sierra de Cantabria

AP-68 PK 94 C by J GM, en Flickr


9. On this direction there are distance signs for Huesca, Lleida and Barcelona, as well as Teruel, Valencia and Alicante

AP-68 PK 100 C by J GM, en Flickr


10. Typical Rioja landscape

AP-68 PK 106 C by J GM, en Flickr


11. 

AP-68 PK 110 C by J GM, en Flickr


12. Exit #11: *LR-137* to Navarrete and Fuenmayor. Lighting conditions were getting quite poor.

AP-68 PK 118 C by J GM, en Flickr


More photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Highway89 said:


> 2. Weirdly enough, Bilbao is not signed as a control city on distance signs. Instead, Burgos and Vitoria are -as well as the next exit: Navarrete.


That's stupid... It's probably based on the N-roads in that corridor, N-120 and N-232. There is no carretera nacional going to Bilbao. N-625 ran farther west. 

I think Spain needs to revise its control city approach, it based too much on the old situation before the motorways were built and long-distance traffic wasn't common outside of the radiales de Madrid. 

On A-6 you will get A Coruña all the way from Madrid but on similarly long distance A-66 you will have to do with smaller cities and nothing beyond that until you reach the next city. 

I'm not saying they should sign Gijón all the way from Sevilla, but there are way too many nearby control cities with nothing beyond it on the signs.

This isn't very indicative of a cross-country route:

A-66-143 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*AP-1*

Fomento has issued a press release where they state that AP-1 (Burgos - Armiñón) will become toll-free at the end of concession, which is 30 November 2018.

http://fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPrensa/N...ón-del-1/de09b0e5-bb03-41af-8f9c-ea7bd5febc8b


----------



## Aokromes

Also it looks DFA/AFA will ask the transfer of AP-68 toll on Araba.

http://www.elcorreo.com/alava/araba/alava-reclamara-fomento-20180619125234-nt.html


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Fomento has issued a press release where they state that AP-1 (Burgos - Armiñón) will become toll-free at the end of concession, which is 30 November 2018.
> 
> http://fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPrensa/N...ón-del-1/de09b0e5-bb03-41af-8f9c-ea7bd5febc8b


and in 31st December 2019, all AUMAR motorways: Salou-Valencia, Valencia-Alicante and Dos Hermanas-Cadiz


----------



## Nikolaj

alserrod said:


> and in 31st December 2019, all AUMAR motorways: Salou-Valencia, Valencia-Alicante and Dos Hermanas-Cadiz


Will there be any ned for the parallel A7 Autovia currently in planning from Castellon de la Plana to the north, when AP-7 will be free of toll?


----------



## alserrod

Nikolaj said:


> Will there be any ned for the parallel A7 Autovia currently in planning from Castellon de la Plana to the north, when AP-7 will be free of toll?


Good question because there were some plans (15 km inner coast, when AP-7 is almost paralel to coast) but I guess that an upgrade of roads will be enough. No need to 2x2


----------



## adevahi

Well, in AP-4 Dos Hermanas-Cádiz, there are parallel workings being done in N-IV (N-4 for dummies) for the first 20 kilometers, Dos Hermanas-Los Palacios.
So if toll of AP-4 ends, there will be two parallels _autovías_ for some kilometers. These workings have already advance and they started when it was already known than tolled road in AP-4 were going to finish in 2019.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They should definitely scrap the A-7 project in Castellón province if AP-7 will become de-tolled by late 2019. That project is adopted in the PIC at a tune of some € 350 - 400 million, which is unnecessary if AP-7 becomes toll-free.

I wonder if they will change the number of AP-7 though. Especially the Alicante - Castellón section will have two A-7s running parallel if they discontinue the 'AP' prefix for de-tolled motorways.


----------



## alserrod

It is one question made in another forum. I always say the same thing...

Near my homecity, when N-232 shifted to A-68, and 3,5 km of AP-68 were toll-free with a new junction, they shifted again to N-232 despite it was 3x3.

Therefore, I guess 
AP-7 ==> A-7
A-7 ==> N-340 (2x2)
N-340 ==> N-340a


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is a precedent for short autovías having an N-number. But for longer distances it is uncommon (except Basque Country). 

They could also renumber Alicante - Valencia to A-38. The parallel N-332 upgrade to A-38 is signed as N-332 in many places. The section around Castellón is signed as CV-10, it could remain that way.


----------



## arctic_carlos

I wonder whether a toll-free AP-7 between Castelló and Salou will have to be expanded to 2x3 once it absorbs most N-340 long-distance traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Here are the traffic volumes:










Combined traffic on AP-7 and N-340 is around 30,000 vehicles per day. That's an annual average, summer traffic is likely higher, though 30,000 is a low volume, and not all traffic on N-340 would switch to the motoway (local traffic remains).


----------



## Vignole

There's another issue. AP-7 from Barcelona to Salou shares the same toll system with AP-7 from Salou to Valencia. So, are they going to reconstruct the dismantled trunk toll of l'Hospitalet de l'Infant. Honestly, I don't think so.


----------



## alserrod

Chris, in those maps, when there are three blue numbers: percentage of motorcycles, cars and trucks/buses

Vignole. They couldn't there (you could make a L'Hospitalet-Cambrils or Salou). They should take again booths in Tarragona where they existed since some years ago


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Actually they would have to build new toll booths in Salou. The location of the former toll booths in L'Hospitalet de l'Infant and in Tarragona is not useful in this new scenario, as they were too far from the concession limit.


----------



## Vignole

^^
Yes it's useful, you have to use the old configuration of Cambrils interchange: free acces to/from Valencia and tolled to/from Barcelona.
But that's not the issue. What I think is that they are not going to remove toll booths before december 2021.


----------



## alserrod

Vignole said:


> ^^
> Yes it's useful, you have to use the old configuration of Cambrils interchange: free acces to/from Valencia and tolled to/from Barcelona.
> But that's not the issue. What I think is that they are not going to remove toll booths before december 2021.


if you came from Valencia, you payed till Salou. If you get off in Cambrils, you had payed 5 km extra for nothing...

The hint is even Cambrils - Salou should be free in that situation, therefore, any booth, at Salou (or general booth in Tarragona as it existed)


----------



## Vignole

OK, I get it, but I'm not worried about the exact location. What I'm trying to say is that I think they will not remove toll booth inmediatly. There's another example: AP-1/AP-68 interchange at Miranda de Ebro. AP-1 and AP-68 share toll system, so do you think that they are going to rebuild a new toll booth before november?


----------



## alserrod

they must.

This is, it is an unique case where two different companies joined to share payments (for instance they do not share with AP-15 and do not accept AP-15 first credit cards payment in AP-68).
Easy for drivers but cheaper for companies. They avoided booths.
Nowadays, they must prepare booths... or providing you do not have ticket, you have entered there, not in the fastest entrance


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's stupid... It's probably based on the N-roads in that corridor, N-120 and N-232. There is no carretera nacional going to Bilbao. N-625 ran farther west.
> 
> I think Spain needs to revise its control city approach, it based too much on the old situation before the motorways were built and long-distance traffic wasn't common outside of the radiales de Madrid.
> 
> On A-6 you will get A Coruña all the way from Madrid but on similarly long distance A-66 you will have to do with smaller cities and nothing beyond that until you reach the next city.
> 
> I'm not saying they should sign Gijón all the way from Sevilla, but there are way too many nearby control cities with nothing beyond it on the signs.


What makes it even more stupid is the fact that Santander, Valladolid and Madrid are signed. At least the ETA to Bilbao appears in almost every variable message sign.

Also, the fact that A Coruña appears on the A-6 from Madrid is somehow an exception to the rule, which I think is to sign the first province capital, and that would be Lugo. Same with some signs on the A-2 ignoring Guadalajara.




alserrod said:


> It is one question made in another forum. I always say the same thing...
> 
> Near my homecity, when N-232 shifted to A-68, and 3,5 km of AP-68 were toll-free with a new junction, they shifted again to N-232 despite it was 3x3.
> 
> Therefore, I guess
> AP-7 ==> A-7
> A-7 ==> N-340 (2x2)
> N-340 ==> N-340a





ChrisZwolle said:


> There is a precedent for short autovías having an N-number. But for longer distances it is uncommon (except Basque Country).
> 
> They could also renumber Alicante - Valencia to A-38. The parallel N-332 upgrade to A-38 is signed as N-332 in many places. The section around Castellón is signed as CV-10, it could remain that way.


But the A-38 goes along the coast. If we want to keep the old "sectors" they could be renumbered to A-39 south of Valencia and A-29 north of it. Or even use A-70 or any A-7x.

The A-4 could become the A-47. It's the only number that's not used in the 4th sector.



Vignole said:


> OK, I get it, but I'm not worried about the exact location. What I'm trying to say is that I think they will not remove toll booth inmediatly. There's another example: AP-1/AP-68 interchange at Miranda de Ebro. AP-1 and AP-68 share toll system, so do you think that they are going to rebuild a new toll booth before november?


They could set up something provisional in the place where the old toll plaza was.









Besides, as I said in the Spanish forum, the junction between the A-12 and A-1/AP-1 near Castañares (Burgos) was designed with two toll plazas in mind. The works should start this year, so the project will likely have to be modified.


----------



## Highway89

Some pictures of the *AP-1* between Pancorbo (exit #4) and the junction with the AP-68 (exit #6).



1.
P6228856 by J GM, en Flickr

2. Approaching the Túnel de San Nicolás (L = 173 m)
P6228858 by J GM, en Flickr

3.
P6228862 by J GM, en Flickr

4.
P6228864 by J GM, en Flickr

5. Túnel de Barrio (L = 262 m)
P6228868 by J GM, en Flickr

6. Túnel de Hontoria (L = 238 m)
P6228871 by J GM, en Flickr

7.
P6228872 by J GM, en Flickr

8. _Área de Servicio "Desfiladero"_
P6228881 by J GM, en Flickr

9. From Ameyugo (exit #4a) there are 3 lanes
P6228894 by J GM, en Flickr

10. Armiñón-Miranda-Ameyugo is toll-free
P6228916 by J GM, en Flickr

11. Exit #5
P6228920 by J GM, en Flickr

12. Entering the Basque Country, but still in the Red de Carreteras del Estado (AP-1 and AP-68 are the only exceptions, AFAIK)
P6228931 by J GM, en Flickr

13. Spanish signage is not good in these cases
P6228934 by J GM, en Flickr

14. Leaving AP-1 towards AP-68
P6228937 by J GM, en Flickr

15. This is where the old (and future?) toll plaza used to be. You can see the space to the right of the picture.
P6228943 by J GM, en Flickr




More photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157670467468258


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Pancorbo crossing is really nice. It's fairly short though. According to Google Earth, the actual mountain crossing is only 5 or 6 kilometers before you get on the great plains again.


----------



## alserrod

yes, it is. There is a hill line from there to Mediterranean. All mountain passes you can find near Teruel, Cuenca or Castellon start there (when studied, geographs consider line of hills or mountains). Hint is the fact of begining and tiny side. But they are same mountains than A-2 between Medinaceli and La Almunia, for instance


----------



## verreme

Highway89 said:


> 15. This is where the old (and future?) toll plaza used to be. You can see the space to the right of the picture.
> P6228943 by J GM, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157670467468258


These are some really old signs! They must have been there since the motorway was first built


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Pancorbo crossing is really nice. It's fairly short though. According to Google Earth, the actual mountain crossing is only 5 or 6 kilometers before you get on the great plains again.


The real water divide between the Duero (Atlantic) and Ebro (Mediterranean) basins is the much less spectacular Puerto de la Brújula, near Burgos. Pancorbo crosses the Obarentes mountains, which separate the Bureba plains from the _hoya_ of Miranda. Further north you have the _Conchas de La Puebla de Arganzón_, which separate the hoya of Miranda from the _Llanada Alavesa_ plain. Along the AP-68, you have the Subijana pass too. So the whole area is full of short yet beautiful passes.

Here are some pictures of the A-1 between Miranda and Vitoria-Gasteiz.

1. The A-1 in Álava is managed by the province. The AP-1 Armiñón toll is on the right.
P6062650 by J GM, en Flickr


2.
P6062655 by J GM, en Flickr


3. We enter the Condado de Treviño, an enclave of Burgos in Álava. We are now again in the Red de Carreteras del Estado.
P6062663 by J GM, en Flickr

4. Crossing the Condado de Treviño. Álava is again behind those mountains.
P6062667 by J GM, en Flickr


5. This area is known as the Conchas de La Puebla
P6062679 by J GM, en Flickr


6. Túnel de Peña María (L = 500 m)
P6062684 by J GM, en Flickr

7. We are now in the Llanada Alavesa (Plain of Álava). The name of the industrial area is quite clear (Los Llanos = The plains)
P6062689 by J GM, en Flickr



verreme said:


> These are some really old signs! They must have been there since the motorway was first built


Indeed, most sings along AP-1 seem to have been there since the motorway was built. You can still find exit signs that say "SALIDA 2" instead of using the pictogram. Many of them aren't reflective anymore. Check out this one, for instance: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/42937436142/in/album-72157670467468258/


----------



## Highway89

Some photos of the AP-68 from the junction with the AP-1 to Haro, through the _Conchas de Haro_ pass.

1.

P6228947 by J GM, en Flickr

2.

P6228950 by J GM, en Flickr

3. The AP-68 ("Autopista del Ebro") is part of the _Red de Carreteras del Estado_, even in the Basque Country. Usually, in bilingual regions they translate "Red de Carreteras del Estado", but in this case there's no Basque version (_Estatuko Errepide Sarea_?).

P6228962 by J GM, en Flickr

4. Other signs are bilingual, though.

P6228971 by J GM, en Flickr

5.

P6228975 by J GM, en Flickr

6. Crossing the Ebro and entering La Rioja :banana:.

P6228977 by J GM, en Flickr

7. 

P6228989 by J GM, en Flickr

8. The Chapel of San Felices, where the people of Haro celebrate the Battle of Wine on St. John's day.

P6228995 by J GM, en Flickr

9. The Sierra de la Demanda and the town of Santo Domingo de la Calzada (A-12 corridor) are visible in the distance. I always get mixed feelings when I drive this stretch: I like the views but I realise how small La Rioja is...

P6229002 by J GM, en Flickr

10. Haro

P6229008 by J GM, en Flickr

11. Ezcaray is on the foothills of the Sierra de la Demanda

P6229019 by J GM, en Flickr

12.

P6229028 by J GM, en Flickr


----------



## CNGL

Highway89 said:


> Some photos of the AP-68 from the junction with the AP-1 to Haro, through the _Conchas de Haro_ pass.
> 
> 3. The AP-68 ("Autopista del Ebro") is part of the _Red de Carreteras del Estado_, even in the Basque Country. Usually, in bilingual regions they translate "Red de Carreteras del Estado", but in this case there's no Basque version (_Estatuko Errepide Sarea_?).


This lack of translation may be due to that there are no roads managed by Fomento (other than AP-68, of course) in both Navarre and the Basque Country.


Highway89 said:


> 6. Crossing the Ebro and entering La Rioja :banana:.


Fun fact: AP-68 here briefly touches Castile and Leon before entering Rioja for good . This can be seen in both Google Maps and OpenStreetMap. For four years this was my only exposure to Burgos province.


----------



## alserrod

that's true. It is AP-68 company who holds about signs, not Fomento.

I remember in the case of AP-2, more than one decade ago, that in Catalonia, shires were exactly pointed and in Aragon, after one decade with new shires, they just pointed historical regions as part of signs (let's say, in case of no signs, there will be lack of signs somewhere in Aragon and strongly boring).
They replied me and said they will point Aragonese shires. They made in a couple of months and with accuracy.
National roads do not point shires, neither in Catalonia or Aragon as well as regional roads point them in both regions.

I made same request to AP-68 company and never got an answer. They really do not have to... but providing they offer so much information... just accuracy


----------



## CNGL

Some fresh news: The Fomento minister, José Luis Ábalos, is opening 5.5 km of A-23 motorway this Monday. Two sections are opening: a 4.5 km section between the switchover and Lanave (thus bypassing several horseshoe curves, to which I said farewell a few days ago), and another km near Arguis. I believe they will also open the Southbound carriageway of the Monrepos summit-Caldearenas-Lanave sections, as it was complete with signage a few days ago (but still without the new bridge over the landslide that happened in April, which is being built this week). Also some other dates have been set: the new 3 km tunnel (Northbound carriageway of the Monrepos summit-Caldearenas section) will open by the end of the year, and the Isuela gorge-Arguis will open in March 2019. No word has been given about when works on the last section of A-22 will start, though.
Source (in Spanish)


----------



## ajch

So we now have from Huesca to Jaca

Motorway - Road - Motorway - Road - Motorway (new open) - Road - Motorway - Road - Motorway

a nightmare in a busy day of traffic.


----------



## MichiH

CNGL said:


> Some fresh news: The Fomento minister, José Luis Ábalos, is opening 5.5 km of A-23 motorway this Monday. Two sections are opening: a 4.5 km section between the switchover and Lanave (thus bypassing several horseshoe curves, to which I said farewell a few days ago), and another km near Arguis. *I believe they will also open the Southbound carriageway of the Monrepos summit-Caldearenas-Lanave sections*, as it was complete with signage a few days ago (but still without the new bridge over the landslide that happened in April, which is being built this week).


I'll hold off with my update because I'm not 100% sure what will be opened tomorrow. It would be great if you could clarify what's really open.

Here my current A23 list from north to south (grey *A23 *indicates sections not yet u/c):



MichiH said:


> *A23:* Canfrane-Estacion – Jaca-North (A21) 19km (? to ?) – ? – map
> *A23:* Jaca-North (A21) – Jaca-East ~3km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
> *A23:* Sabinanigo-West – Sabinanigo-East 6.9km (? to ?) – ? – map
> *A23:* Sabinanigo-East – Sabinanigo-South 3km (< 2009 to 14th July 2014) – ? – map
> *A23:* Sabinanigo-South – Jabarella 2.2km (? to ?) – ? – map
> *A23:* Jabarella – Lanave 7km (? to ?) – ? – map
> *A23:* Lanave – north of Caldearenas 5km (< 2009 to Late June 2018) – ? – map
> *A23:* north of Caldearenas – Alto de Monrepos 5km (< 2009 to May 2019) – ? – map
> *A23:* Alto de Monrepos – Arguis 3.2km (2012 to 10th October 2014) – ? – map
> *A23:* Arguis – Congosto de Isuela 3km (2007 to March 2019) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
> *A23:* Congosto de Isuela – Nueno 3km (2012 to 18th June 2014) [1st c/w] – ? – map
> *A23:* Congosto de Isuela – Nueno 3km (2012 to 30th July 2014) [2nd c/w] – ? – map





CNGL said:


> Also some other dates have been set: the new 3 km tunnel (Northbound carriageway of the Monrepos summit-Caldearenas section) will open by the end of the year,


Late 2018 instead of May 2019? Only 2nd c/w (and both c/w where the landslide was) if you are right that the southbound c/w will be opened tomorrow. If so, will the southbound c/w have one-way traffic or (temporarily) two-way traffic.



CNGL said:


> and the Isuela gorge-Arguis will open in March 2019.


It was already reported earlier.

Any status about tender procedure / construction start for the next sections?


----------



## CNGL

^^ Your list misses Sabiñanigo West-Jaca East, which was opened in 2011. Also, A-23 won't go further than Jaca, and the Lanave-Jabarrella reservoir-Sabiñanigo South sections are to be tendered as a single 9 km section (First they have to rewrite the project in order to remove the possible temporary connections in between). No news about the other section of the Sabiñanigo bypass, and the Jaca bypass is facing strong NIMBYism, so we may end up having to cross Jaca to get from A-23 to A-21 for quite some time.

As for the new tunnel, the late 2018 date was in the source given. The opening of the Southbound carriageway (for two-way traffic for the time being, obviously) is only a guess from me, but since it was complete with signage a few days ago I won't be surprised if they do so. Finally, the 1 km section to be opened near Arguis: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=es&lat=42.310196&lon=-0.424347&z=16&m=o. The other from "North" (actually sightly South and way East) of Caldearenas to Lanave is correct.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Arguis section is basically a re-working of the old interchange to motorway standards. 

There is a tunnel south of there that bypasses the narrowest section of the gorge.

A-23 will be one of the most scenic motorways in Spain once it is completed from Huesca to Jaca.


----------



## MichiH

CNGL said:


> Your list misses Sabiñanigo West-Jaca East, which was opened in 2011.


My list only contains all new motorway and expressway sections in Europe which have been opened for traffic since 1st January 2014 



CNGL said:


> The opening of the Southbound carriageway (for two-way traffic for the time being, obviously) is only a guess from me, but since it was complete with signage a few days ago I won't be surprised if they do so.


Just keep us up-to-date 



CNGL said:


> Finally, the 1 km section to be opened near Arguis: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=es&lat=42.310196&lon=-0.424347&z=16&m=o.


Ah, got it!



ChrisZwolle said:


> A-23 will be one of the most scenic motorways in Spain once it is completed from Huesca to Jaca.


I think I have to travel A23 on my next road trip to Spain (maybe 2019 or 2020). First, I have to travel other regions, e.g. Western Balkans and Italy


----------



## alserrod

Opening will be today at 17:30

MichH, I strongly recommend you to drive there BEFORE 3km tunnel opening.

this is... gorgeous views are in the summit northbound. It is scenic to go and stop in the pass (*) and see all the Pyrenees. It's mountain wellcome.
When new tunnel will open, that view will be possible only when going through south... to say goodbye.

(*) If you are going to do it, have a glance at google maps. 20-50 metres BEFORE mountain pass it is possible to stop safely but after mountain pass, no stops allowed for several km.


There are other scenic roads in the area. If you wanna, we can prepare a tour


----------



## Stuu

A question for the Spanish motorway experts:
I'm driving from Barajas airport to Válor in the Sierra Nevada in a couple of weeks - the obvious route is A4-A44-A308-A92... but is there any reason to try and find a different route - long-term roadworks or anything else? 

Thanks


----------



## alserrod

Stuu said:


> A question for the Spanish motorway experts:
> I'm driving from Barajas airport to Válor in the Sierra Nevada in a couple of weeks - the obvious route is A4-A44-A308-A92... but is there any reason to try and find a different route - long-term roadworks or anything else?
> 
> Thanks


There's not.

There are mountains north of Andalusia and it makes you taking the few motorways you will find. Therefore all routes drive to Despeñaperros pass . If you haven't driven there in the last years, go and visit. Even can stop somewhere and guess how it was 20 years ago 2x2 but limited to 50 km/h and before... 1x1 limited to 40, the main entrance to Andalusia.

Wanna go in one way, return in different one?. Try road Linares-Albacete. It is planned to be upgraded to motorway. In the nearest area to Linares, different scape. Approaching to Albacete, really, it is absolutely the same scenic than in the A-4. You can be in the middle of nowhere 100 km away and will not know which road it is.


Another hint... you can try to take a high speed train to Cordoba, for instance and hire a car there. Train takes 1h40m Madrid-Cordoba only and every 30 minutes or so


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Big crash on AP-7 at La Jonquera.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Clap your hands*

A-23 opening ceremony:


----------



## MichiH

^^No pics shown here.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ It should work now (damn those Twitter urls).

Evidently it has also been announced that A-21 around Jaca and A-21 Puente la Reina de Jaca - Zaragoza border will be tendered before the end of the year.

http://www.aragondigital.es/noticia.asp?notid=168272&secid=31


----------



## CNGL

In addition to today's opening (which has the side effect of leaving me without a full clinch of all (physical) toll-free motorways in Aragon, a feat which I had done from November 2016 until today), it has been announced the contract for the final A-22 section will be signed this Friday, so construction can begin by the end of this month (however no earthworks will be visible for some time after that).


----------



## alserrod

MichiH said:


> ^^No pics shown here.


Surely, CNGL will post them in less than one week (it is 20ish km away from his hometown)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-23*

A-23 at Lanave


----------



## alserrod

It is a pity because Lanave-Sabiñanigo south has no date.

Lanave through south remains u/c

Will try to drive there this july


----------



## clickgr

Last Christmas I drove all the way from Huesca to Jaca and a bit further up to San Juan de la Peña. It seemed to be an enormous project, many bridges, tunnels etc. But at that time for the most part, the traffic was still on the old road. The only long part that was ready and in traffic it was between Jaca and Sabiñanigo and a little bit from Sabiñanigo to the south. 

When it will be finished there is no doubt that it will change radically the transportation in the region, but until that time due to the way the works are progressing, there is almost no improvement for the traffic.

I am wondering, why they do contraction simultaneously in the entire length of the new highway, and not finish it in parts so that the traffic can be benefited as long as the construction lasts.


----------



## alserrod

In 2001 motorway until Nueno was finished. Just before mountains.
In 2011 one more km after Nueno was opened and started opening in several areas. Between Jaca and Sabiñanigo it is quite easy to do it, southern Sabiñanigo too. With more hills or less but until start of nothern bound of mountain pass.
In 2012, 3,5 km southern Sabiñanigo were opened too and it was already open Nueno-Gorge with a new tunnel direction south. Later, they had a problem in the old carriageway (direction north) and made 1x1 in the new carriageway direction south for several months.
First tunnel (1,45 km) was doubled (2x2), making a refurbishment of old one.
And nowadays they have opened 4,5 km more. It is a stretch that belongs to tunnel but obviously it is quite easy. This is, company that has build it is still working in the longest tunnel and work is not considered finished because contract is since begining of new tunnel.

About companies... in 2010 all works were halted and found a decission for each stretch. Each one had a different contract. Nowadays, from northbound of this stretch (tiny village of Lanave) until Sabiñanigo south, works aren't on going at all. The rest of motorway, faster or slower, remains u/c


Hint, about San Juan de la Peña... the three first Aragonese kings are in that monastery. Last month they finished a 35 years work. They took all bones to analyse them. They considered they will find more than three people (maybe siblings, or so) and they have found 70 people. Could make DNA analysis and C-14 probe to know the era. They know that there are people before of kings and a sort of life tree but they aren't able to know which bones belongs to each king. In addition, last one dead without children, next kings were his two half-siblings (born from second wife after his mother dead too) and DNA was known too... but not enough to accurate it.
Anyway, all bones were set in original situation last month after 35 years in an university.

There are several buildings and natural spaces that can take you one full day to visit just some km around.

In addition, Jaca has the former standing cathedral in Spain (and I do not know if in the world, this is, it is not the first one in the world that was built but all of them were down or changed so much that they do not keep anything from beginings. Jaca cathedral is as it was when built and one out of few romanesque style cathedral, not gothic)


----------



## Boltzman

Stuu said:


> A question for the Spanish motorway experts:
> I'm driving from Barajas airport to Válor in the Sierra Nevada in a couple of weeks - the obvious route is A4-A44-A308-A92... but is there any reason to try and find a different route - long-term roadworks or anything else?


This route should be total smooth. A4 gets congested southbound on Friday afternoons and evenings, so try to avoid specifically this day. Northbound gets quite congested on Sunday afternoons and evenings.

If you drive with enough spare time, let me suggest you arriving Válor on the opposite way, that is, A4-A44 passing Granada until A348 to Lanjarón-Órgiva and then a local road Pampaneira-Trevélez-Bérchules. The scenery is impressive, but probably you'll already have planned this route during your stay


----------



## MichiH

CNGL said:


> The opening of the Southbound carriageway (for two-way traffic for the time being, obviously) is only a guess from me, but since it was complete with signage a few days ago I won't be surprised if they do so.



Any info on this? OSM is not yet updated...


----------



## adevahi

From what I've heard, works in SE-40 are advancing so far. There is a section in the sector A-376/A-4 south, where the new highway must pass over an avenue, a railway, the national road and a water course, so so many beams must be collocated there.

This is how this sector looked like since months ago:









And in the last weeks, nearly all beams have been colocated (all except the ones over the railroad, exactly in this point.

I expect this speed in the workings is maintain until the opening of the road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-60*

A-60 from Villarente to Santas Martas is planned to be inaugurated on 18 July.

El miércoles, día 18, a las 17.30 horas, el nuevo ministro de Fomento, José Luis Ábalos, inaugurará el trazado comprendido entre Puente Villarente y Santas Martas tras una inversión de algo más de 130 millones​
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...ervicio-miercoles-21-anos-espera_1263039.html


----------



## alserrod

I remember first time I drove there, crossing villages and under construction...

no plans to enlarge even from Valladolid nor Leon


----------



## alserrod

Some pics about A-23 recently open


----------



## alserrod

and other ones about stretch under works


----------



## MichiH

alserrod said:


> Some pics about A-23 recently open


Only the northern-most 5km section is indicated open on OSM now.



CNGL said:


> As for the new tunnel, the late 2018 date was in the source given. The opening of the Southbound carriageway (for two-way traffic for the time being, obviously) is only a guess from me, but since it was complete with signage a few days ago I won't be surprised if they do so.


Not yet opened on OSM, I guess it didn't happen, did it?



CNGL said:


> Finally, the 1 km section to be opened near Arguis: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=es&lat=42.310196&lon=-0.424347&z=16&m=o.


Updated but not all ramps seem to be in service.


----------



## CNGL

MichiH said:


> Not yet opened on OSM, I guess it didn't happen, did it?


Per alserrod's photos it appears not to be open yet. I'll be passing through this section next Sunday anyway.


----------



## alserrod

Arguis ramps are open 2x2 nowadays


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> *18 July 2018*
> 
> A 20 kilometer section of autovía has been inaugurated today in Northern Spain, a portion of A-60 from Santas Martas to Puente Villarrente, south of León. It has cost € 137.6 million (€ 6.9 million per km) and includes an interchange with A-231.
> 
> https://www.leonoticias.com/leon/leon-acerca-valladolid-20180718180308-nt.html












Source: http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPren...tramo-de/a6a83817-d05d-4d0a-b99e-6d1cb10eb012


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> *18 July 2018*
> 
> A 20 kilometer section of autovía has been inaugurated today in Northern Spain, a portion of A-60 from Santas Martas to Puente Villarrente, south of León. It has cost € 137.6 million (€ 6.9 million per km) and *includes an interchange with A-231.*
> 
> https://www.leonoticias.com/leon/leon-acerca-valladolid-20180718180308-nt.html


I wonder how, since A-60 is nowhere near Northeastern Teruel, where A-231 is located. :troll:


----------



## pai nosso

*Extremadura Region

A-5 -- July of 2018*

1-


2-


3-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

A-66 – July of 2018

1-


2-Entering Andaluzia


3-


4-


5-Media Fanega Tunnel


6-KM 800

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*SE-30 – July of 2018*

1-Seville


2-


3-


4-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*Andaluzia Region

A-49 – July of 2018*

1-


2-


3-


4-


----------



## pai nosso

5-


6-


7-


8-


9-


10-


11-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## adevahi

What kind of workings are being done in the Puente Internacional of Ayamonte?


----------



## alserrod

by the way, outer -ring at Badajoz remains u/c . It will bound border


----------



## pai nosso

adevahi said:


> What kind of workings are being done in the Puente Internacional of Ayamonte?


I found this news article:



> The paving of the trays, the rehabilitation of river and road lighting, together with the decorative lighting of the towers and tie rods, as well as the installation of orientation panels are some of the works planned for the Guadiana International Bridge, which links Portugal to Spain, with work to start this Monday, June 5.


----------



## verreme

alserrod said:


> by the way, outer -ring at Badajoz remains u/c . It will bound border


https://www.hoy.es/badajoz/firmado-inicio-obra-20180719104423-nt.html

https://www.hoy.es/extremadura/millones-ronda-badajoz-20171211150119-nt.html

The project includes a bridge over the Guadiana river, as well as two grade-separated interchanges (the rest of the junctions will be roundabouts). As quoted in the article, project speed is 100 km/h.

Interestingly enough, one of the articles even cites the future A-81 motorway (Badajoz-Granada), of which only the section closest to Granada is under construction -and it's not even called A-81 but GR-43. It's very unclear to me whether this monstruous project (400 kilometers) will see the light some day.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Badajoz - Granada first appeared in the ambitious PEIT of 2005. Many road projects of the PEIT are still not in development, the economic crisis killed / delayed many projects and some were maybe over the top, with some 6,000 kilometers (!) of new autovía to be constructed. A-81 is still adopted in the 2012 PITVI though (which is the current road plan).


----------



## CNGL

I've now reclaimed a full clinch of A-23 and all non-physically tolled motorways in Aragon (A-2 except the Fraga bypass and ARA-A1 are shadow-tolled), so now I can answer this:


MichiH said:


> Not yet opened on OSM, I guess it didn't happen, did it?


The viaduct is not open yet, all traffic is still on the not-so old road (the _truly_ old road in the area is former C-136). Maybe it will open with the 3 km tunnel by the end of this year, maybe earlier.


MichiH said:


> Updated but not all ramps seem to be in service.


All ramps (on exit 381) are in service. The old interchange to the South has been demolished.


----------



## pai nosso

*A-66 -- Mérida»Seville*


Last week i went from the EX-300 south of Mérida to Seville using the A-66 and there was a lot of heavy traffic and trucks.


I was suprise that the motorway with such traffic, with few exceptions didn`t had a lot of zones with 3 lanes when going up hill. 

Are there plans to expand the motorway??


----------



## alserrod

I do not think so. It is several years A-66 was finished and you can drive from Gijon to Cadiz by motorway (or tolled motorways)... and nowadays, direct way Madrid-Seville is via A-66 for instance. It is 3 km shorter than by A-4. Providing centre to centre.

Traffic took that way but I guess they would build first Merida-Cordoba, for instance, That will take part of traffic out of motorway


----------



## pai nosso

^^
Thanks for the answer!!


----------



## alserrod

There are a lot of routes that have been "new". For instance, 20 years ago, few people considered A-66, but nowadays... it is faster for Madrid-Seville

I guess they would enlarge Puertollano-Merida or Merida-Cordoba prior to enlarge to 3 lanes Merida-Seville.

Northern Merida hasn't so much traffic.


----------



## arctic_carlos

Yesterday I drove A-66 between Cáceres and Plasencia. I was surprised by the amount of French and Belgian cars driven by people from Moroccan origin. 

I guess AP-8 + A-1 + AP-1 + A-62 + A-66 + AP-4 + A-381 has become a popular route to go from the French border at Irún to the crossing of the strait of Gibraltar.


----------



## alserrod

Lol.... in an African thread, someone asked some years ago about roads and I recommended that way. Less traffic, avoiding Madrid and cool...


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-33*



MichiH said:


> *A33:* south of La Font de la Figuera – Caudete (A31) 6.5km (? to Late 2019) – ? – map


A new 4 km section of A-33 is ready to open sometime this week. It's a partial opening of the section on MichiH's list (just the northern part), as it is shown in red and green in the following map:



Jorge vlc said:


> Y esto es como va a quedar en cuanto abran estos 4 kilómetros nuevos de autovía, azul actualidad (parte norte de lo azul ya es autovía), rojo y verde nuevo. (foto abajo)


That means that the whole A-33 section between A-35 and A-31 will be ready with the exception of the interchanges with both motorways.


----------



## verreme

^^ This is completely absurd. Are they going to open it meter by meter? The interchange with A-31 is crap and it's in very poor condition. Totally unsuitable for heavy traffic as trucks have to drive 10 km/h to enter the onramp to A-31 southbound.


----------



## adevahi

I can't contain myself of happiness.

I just received a photo taken from A-49 where it can be seen that the road signs showing direction to Almensilla through SE-40 have been uncovered. I also heard that Abalos (infrastructure minister) is coming tomorrow to visit Sevilla.

Will Almensilla-Espartinas be opened tomorrow? Highly likely. Will Coria-Almensilla will open also tomorrow? Maybe, I really hope so, since Almensilla-Espartinas is useless if other sections opened.

Only few days ago I told Andrex1986 in the Spanish forum that I didn't expect this sections to be open in 2018. How happy I am of being wrong!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ You're right!

Fomento: 
El ministro de Fomento, José Luis Ábalos, asistirá mañana miércoles,25 de julio, en Sevilla, a la puesta en servicio de dos tramos del Sector Suroeste de la nueva autovía de circunvalación de Sevilla SE-40. En elacto estará acompañado por el consejero de Fomento y Vivienda de la Junta de Andalucía, Felipe López, y el delegado del Gobierno en Andalucía, Alfonso Rodríguez de Celis.​
The opening ceremony is at 10 a.m.


----------



## adevahi

Where have you seen this text? Any link?

Edit: I just found it: https://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LAN...COMUNICACION/CONVOCATORIAS/conv-180724-01.htm


----------



## pai nosso

*Extremadura Region*

*BA-20 – July of 2018*



*EX-300 – July of 2018*

1-


2-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*Andaluzia Region*

*A483 – July of 2018*

1-


2-


3-


4-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*Andaluzia Region

A-494 – July of 2018*

1-


2-


3-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## adevahi

pai nosso said:


> *Andaluzia Region
> 
> A-494 – July of 2018*


This one is a lovely road to be driving. The forest of pines never ends, and when is not summer there is few traffic.


----------



## Aokromes

arctic_carlos said:


> Yesterday I drove A-66 between Cáceres and Plasencia. I was surprised by the amount of French and Belgian cars driven by people from Moroccan origin.
> 
> I guess AP-8 + A-1 + AP-1 + A-62 + A-66 + AP-4 + A-381 has become a popular route to go from the French border at Irún to the crossing of the strait of Gibraltar.





alserrod said:


> Lol.... in an African thread, someone asked some years ago about roads and I recommended that way. Less traffic, avoiding Madrid and cool...


You can blame google maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Bru...787302a7!2m2!1d4.3517103!2d50.8503396!1m0!3e0


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Applause for SE-40*


----------



## FabriFlorence

arctic_carlos said:


> Yesterday I drove A-66 between Cáceres and Plasencia. I was surprised by the amount of French and Belgian cars driven by people from Moroccan origin.
> 
> I guess AP-8 + A-1 + AP-1 + A-62 + A-66 + AP-4 + A-381 has become a popular route to go from the French border at Irún to the crossing of the strait of Gibraltar.


Why are you surprised? Hundreds of thousands of Moroccans live in France and Belgium. It's normal that a lot of them come back to their motherland on summer to see their relatives. 

Of course who goes by car has to pass from Spain.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ I’m not surprised at all to see Moroccans driving on our motorways. I used to live in Catalonia and as a child I went often to Andalusia in summer and all the AP-7 rest areas along the Mediterranean coast were always packed with Moroccans who traveled from France, Belgium or even the Netherlands to their country or origin.

Seeing for the first time all these people in Extremadura is what surprises me, because until recently that region wasn’t part of the usual route between France and the strait of Gibraltar. It’s clear to me now that the opening of A-66 has changed that.


----------



## MichiH

Is any SE-40 section really in service now?


----------



## adevahi

MichiH said:


> Is any SE-30 section really in service now?


All of them :lol:.


Well, talking serously, I suppose you meant SE-40.

Since this morning, is possible to go from A-49 to Autovía de Coria using SE-40. Not very useful if the tunnels beyond the river Guadalquivir aren't done, but yet is better than nothing.
Sincerely, I don't expect more than 20,000 cars per year in these 2x3 highway while tunnels are not built.

This tunnels that I'm talking about plus the section A-376 to A-4 south (or Alcalá de Guadaíra to Dos Hermanas) would connect the section opened this morning with the two sections opened years ago, at the east of the city.


----------



## MichiH

adevahi said:


> All of them :lol:.


True, I drove the whole ring last year 



adevahi said:


> Since this morning, is possible to go from A-49 to Autovía de Coria using SE-40.


Ok:



MichiH said:


> *SE40:* Coria del Rio – Almensilla ~7km (? to Fall 2018) – ? – map
> *SE40:* Almensilla – Espartinas (A49) ~7km (? to Fall 2018) – ? – map


Any info when the next section might be opened?



MichiH said:


> *SE40:* Torrequinto (A376) – Carretera de la Isla (A4) 8.1km (? to 2018) – ? – map


----------



## adevahi

MichiH said:


> Any info when the next section might be opened?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SE40: Torrequinto (A376) – Carretera de la Isla (A4) 8.1km (? to 2018) – ? –
Click to expand...

Workings are progressing. However, there are two structures still being constructed (bridge over _Av. de las Universidades_ and bridge over N-IV, railway and some more items).

Look at photos taken few days ago in this post of the 2nd bridge (the one over N-IV and railway):
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=150369887&postcount=813
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=150264805&postcount=809

In the other bridge there have to be done also a roundabout for the traffic of Avenida de las Universidades. For not affecting to the traffic of this road, the workings are being done now in the first half of this roundabout and the first half of the bridge over it. Second half of boths haven't still started.


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## alserrod

Moroccans are choosing crossing border via Irun or La Junquera depending of origin to avoid km.
After those border crossing, natural way to south was via Madrid (from Irun) or via Alicante (from La Junquera)

In the first case, after you can drive to Salamanca-Merida-Seville with free motorway, avoiding Madrid and some congestions it is quite used.
From La Junquera, there's an option to avoid congestions from Valencia to Manzanares (A-4), but not saving time and not so much congested.

In addition you could have three more options to avoid traffic. Spain can be a nightmare in summer some days.

- Irun to Pamplona-Soria-Medinaceli-A-2-Madrid-...

- crossing via Somport tunnel. 4,5 km of A-23 were opened this month. No tolls in this stretch. A bit longer but less traffic

- Valencia to Albacete and... Linares. A long way Albacete-Linares with a good road but 1x1. Will be 2x2 in future but not now. Anyway, peaceful


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-33*

A 4 kilometer section of A-33 south of La Font de la Figuera opens to traffic today:


----------



## Suburbanist

soil there looks almost a desert


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## ChrisZwolle

Nearby Caudete receives only some 400 mm of rain per year.


----------



## pai nosso

*Andaluzia Region

N-442 – July of 2018*

1-


2-

Source: pai nosso


*A-5050*



*A-5052*


*N-431*

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*Andaluzia Region

A-497 – July of 2018*

1-


2-


3-


4-


5-


6-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*Galicia Region

A-55 – July of 2018

Vigo » Tui*

1-


2-


3-


4-


5-


6-


----------



## pai nosso

7-


8-


9-


10-


11-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## arctic_carlos

After the wave of motorway openings that we've witnessed in the last few weeks, it's time for the usual bath of reality:



MichiH said:


> *A54:* Lavacolla – Arzua-West 18.5km (? to October 2018) – ? – map


2019.

Source: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...tas-tramo-a-54-melide/0003_201807S15C8991.htm



MichiH said:


> *A56:* A Barrela-North (Estivada) – As Lamas (OU901) 8.8km (2008 to October 2018) – project – map


Mid 2019.

Source: http://www.laregion.es/articulo/our...abara-mediados-2019/20180528224358796728.html



MichiH said:


> *A57:* A Ermida – Vilaboa 6.5km (October 2015 to November 2018) – ? – map


Late 2019 (or early 2020). 

Source: https://www.farodevigo.es/portada-p...-inicia-nuevas-expropiaciones-57/1925839.html


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-352*



MichiH said:


> *A352:* south of Vera – Garrucha 4.3km (2009 to November 2018) – ? – map


Probably the last deadline won't be respected, given that the current level of execution is just 45%. Some pictures from last month:










http://www.europapress.es/andalucia...ajar-desdoble-antigua-via-20180625133858.html










http://www.europapress.es/esandaluc...rucha-rondan-45-ejecucion-20180613165953.html










http://levante.ideal.es/actualidad/desdoble-veragarrucha-cerca-20180614193358-nt.html










http://levante.ideal.es/actualidad/desdoblamiento-veragarrucha-obliga-20180426235841-nt.html


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-11*



MichiH said:


> *A11:* El Burgo de Osma-East – Santiuste 9.4km (2009/10 to 2018) – ? – map


September 2018.



MichiH said:


> *A11:* Venta Nueva – La Mallona 6km (2009/10 to 2018) – ? – map


May 2019.

Source: https://www.lavanguardia.com/politi...-en-2018-se-podra-abrir-algun-tramo-a-11.html

Besides, construction of 2 new A-11 sections will be tendered early next year:

- Tudela de Duero - Olivares de Duero (20,2 km)
- Olivares de Duero - Quintanilla de Arriba (14,5 km)

Source: https://www.elnortedecastilla.es/valladolid/obras-quintanilla-tudela-20180726202427-nt.html


----------



## verreme

arctic_carlos said:


> After the wave of motorway openings that we've witnessed in the last few weeks, it's time for the usual bath of reality:
> 
> 
> 
> 2019.
> 
> Source: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...tas-tramo-a-54-melide/0003_201807S15C8991.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Mid 2019.
> 
> Source: http://www.laregion.es/articulo/our...abara-mediados-2019/20180528224358796728.html
> 
> 
> 
> Late 2019 (or early 2020).
> 
> Source: https://www.farodevigo.es/portada-p...-inicia-nuevas-expropiaciones-57/1925839.html


2019 is election year and construction was scheduled accordingly . We're very likely to see another year like 2015 with 300+ km of openings.

However the Government that programmed all this construction didn't expect to be kicked out earlier this year so they will not be the ones on the ribbon-cutting picture. What a shame! :lol:


----------



## MichiH

Is A44 Granada bypass still expected to be opened this year?


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ That’s a good question. I tried to find information about it but I found almost nothing. Just some statements from a local PP politician (now in the opposition) from a couple of months ago saying it would be completed in 2019. 

However, he was most probably talking about the whole project (including the southernmost section, where construction only started in late 2016), so I wouldn’t rule out a partial opening in 2018 of the other two sections, which were pretty advanced a few months ago.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is A-59 still a thing? It is in the same general corridor as A-57 from Pontevedra to Vigo. I haven't read anything about A-59 in recent years. 

https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-2015-10439


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Apparently A-59 is no longer a priority, even for the Galician regional government:

http://www.atlantico.net/articulo/v...ita-vigo-pontevedra/20180109231119626212.html

A-59 would link Vilaboa with Vigo Airport (Peinador) via Redondela, along the eastern shore of the Ría de Vigo (AP-9 runs on the western shore), while A-57 would follow another alignment to the east of A-59 from Vilaboa towards A-52 via Sotomayor, if the information in the Spanish wikipedia is right.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autovía_Pontevedra-Vigo

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-57

In my opinion A-59 makes more sense than the southern section of A-57.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Fomento has redesigned its website: https://www.fomento.gob.es/


----------



## alserrod

Using mobile devices when driving is -3 points in driving licence.

It will be 4 to 6 (I do not know when 4 or 6 will apply) in the future


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Plan Extraordinario de Inversión en Carreteras*

The Rajoy government announced the _Plan Extraordinario de Inversión en Carreteras_ (PIC) on 14 July 2017. It is a € 5 billion plan to build and improve 2,000 kilometers of motorways using public-private partnerships. The projects were initially not named, but as time progressed, projects for the PIC were announced, as they are a great publicity tool. 

However, the Rajoy government ended on 1 June 2018 before the end of its term and now the socialists are running the government. 

The new PSOE minister of the Ministerio de Fomento, Ábalos, has announced that the new government will proceed with the PIC as proposed under the previous government. 

>> https://cincodias.elpais.com/cincodias/2018/07/12/companias/1531397458_919230.html

Until the collapse of the Rajoy government, the following projects were announced;

* A-7 expansion to six lanes between Alhama de Murcia and Crevillente, including the Arco Norte of Murcia. It is a 73 kilometer expansion and construction project.
* A-7 construction of 48 kilometers from Vilanova d'Alcolea to Traiguera. This project appears superfluous to me if they are going to de-toll AP-7.
* A-8 expansion to six lanes from Colindres to the Bizkaia border (35 km)
* A-30 / Arco Oeste of Murcia. New autovía (33 km)
* A-32 construction between the Andalucía border and Albacete (91 km)
* A-52 new route from O Porriño to Vigo (10 km)
* A-73 construction between Quintanaortuño and Aguilar de Campóo (61.4 km)

These are generally all very useful projects that have been planned for a long time, both by PP and PSOE governments. Unlike their SPD counterpart in Germany, PSOE does not seem to be opposed to PPP financing for road projects.


----------



## alserrod

I bet second project (A-7) is drop down


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## arctic_carlos

Construction has started on a new 2.95 km A-67 section in Cantabria, northern Spain, between Sierrapando and Barreda. Its purpose is to create an independent alignment for A-67, given that currently A-67 and A-8 share the same alignment north of Torrelavega, which causes congestion.

https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/mar-31072018-1754


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## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> Is A44 Granada bypass still expected to be opened this year?


Today I saw the works of the new bypass from A-92G near Santa Fe and I can confirm it won’t be ready in 2018. They haven’t started the overpass and the interchange with A-92G is still at an early stage. They’re now working on a temporary alignment for A-92G to build said interchange.

I guess an opening in 2019 before the next local and regional elections is the most likely option.


----------



## ajch

arctic_carlos said:


> Construction has started on a new 2.95 km A-67 section in Cantabria, northern Spain, between Sierrapando and Barreda. Its purpose is to create an independent alignment for A-67, given that currently A-67 and A-8 share the same alignment north of Torrelavega, which causes congestion.
> 
> https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/mar-31072018-1754


Map with the future alignment









https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/43.3591/-4.0412


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## Stuu

:nuts:

Thanks, yes I figured out what happens, it's just the idea of signing both routes to one location that is weird... 

And thanks for your example! It makes even less sense to say go either way there, the M50 route is obviously shorter so send traffic heading for Valencia that way. What is the logic behind it? Also some compass points would be useful as well, although I guess having well-known cities makes up for that a bit


----------



## Highway89

adevahi said:


> Never saw a signal like that before, is it new?


Yep, it's one of the new measures being tested in La Rioja by the DGT (Spanish Traffic Authorities).









http://revista.dgt.es/es/noticias/n...minoso-presencia-ciclistas.shtml#.W2sfttIzaUl
https://www.larioja.org/comunicacio...ja-estrenan-nuevo-sistema-guias-sonoras-insta


They also built rumble strips along the shoulders:

LR-250 PK 12 D by J GM, en Flickr


In some cases, the shoulder is so narrow that they had to paint a "cebreado" (don't know the word in English) so that cyclists use the lanes instead.


LR-259 ciclistas 1 by J GM, en Flickr

(That white thing in the middle of the lane is supposed to be the symbol of a bicycle)

LR-259 ciclistas 2 by J GM, en Flickr


----------



## Carretero

Stuu said:


> And thanks for your example! It makes even less sense to say go either way there, the M50 route is obviously shorter so send traffic heading for Valencia that way. What is the logic behind it? Also some compass points would be useful as well, although I guess having well-known cities makes up for that a bit


The only logic one could find is that M-45 was there before, so it was the only outer ring road for a few years, and long-distance traffice used to take it to bypass Madrid between A-2/A-3/A-4/A-5. When M-50 was completed, I think they directly "added" the new directions.

My opinion is that M-45 sign should be modified in order to show destinations inside Madrid metropolitan area, like:
- Coslada
- R-3/A-3 Madrid city center
- Vicálvaro
- Getafe / Leganés


----------



## adevahi

Carretero said:


> That is relatively easy; that is a division in two carriageways (main M-45/M-50 and service carriageway), they run parallel for a few kilometers and you can go take these destinations by both of them.
> https://www.google.es/maps/@40.4292...4!1sT4VZR6Ri3JLJVfOeAmtGlw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> But you will love this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :cheers:


Wait for the future, when public administration will impose to all authorities to write Valencia/València :lol:. Maybe in 10 or maybe in 30 years.


----------



## pai nosso

*AP-9 -- July of 2018*

*Vigo» Corunha*

1-Rande Bridge


2-


*Corunha » Vigo*

3-


4-


5-


6-


7-


----------



## pai nosso

8-


9-


10-


11-


12-


13-


14-


----------



## pai nosso

15-


16-


17-


18-


19-


20-


21-


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## pai nosso

22-Santiago de Compostela


23-New Exit being built to Culture City at Santiago de COmpostela


24-


25-


26-


27-


28-


----------



## pai nosso

29-


30-


31-


32-


33-


34-Rande Bridge


35-Rande Bridge


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## pai nosso

36-Rande Bridge


37-


38-


39-


40-

Source: pai nosso


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## Highway89

The "new" bypass of Santiago looks great.

Also, I must admit that I don't quite like the new look of the Rande bridge. I though I'd grow used to it, but it still feels to me like they just added a weird temporary structure they'll have to remove at some point in the future and just build a new parallel bridge.


----------



## Highway89

Highway89 said:


> Some pictures of the *AP-68* around Logroño. This stretch is to be expanded to 3 lanes and some new junctions will be built:
> 
> 
> *1*
> Towards Bilbao. The A-12 crosses over the AP-68, but there's no direct connection. A new junction will be built when the AP-68 is expanded.


Some more photos of the area where the AP-68 and A-12 meet. Taken from a hill in Navarrete.

1. A-12 (above), AP-68 (below)

AP-68 A-12 by J GM, en Flickr


AP-68 A-12 by J GM, en Flickr

3. AP-68 (foreground), LO-20 over the La Grajera pass (where the giant bull billboard is) towards Logroño.

LO-20 AP-60 N-120 by J GM, en Flickr

4. A-12 west of Navarrete towards Burgos.

A-12 by J GM, en Flickr

Some other pictures.

5. The N-120a has returned to its original number: N-120. It had had the 'a' added when the A-12 was built.

P7113136 by J GM, en Flickr

6. The AP-68 meandering through the Rioja landscape.

P7113172 by J GM, en Flickr

7.

P7113280 by J GM, en Flickr


----------



## pai nosso

Highway89 said:


> The "new" bypass of Santiago looks great.
> 
> Also, I must admit that I don't quite like the new look of the Rande bridge. I though I'd grow used to it, but it still feels to me like they just added a weird temporary structure they'll have to remove at some point in the future and just build a new parallel bridge.


I agree with you, the new look of the Rande Bridge looks weird i doubt and I have doubts that on days with traffic jams it can manage the traffic!


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## adevahi

There is in Sevilla a similar bridge (Puente del Centenario, more typically known as Puente del V Centenario), which is also a suspension bridge with two towers. It has twice the traffic of Puente de Rande and 5 lanes, but each one is really narrow.
The government is studying the possibility of adding more space so that it gets 6 lanes (still not excessive for more than 100,000 AADT), however Fomento still didn't explain if the workings will be like in Rande, with two new lanes suspended and independent of the others, or if it will be done in a different way.


----------



## adevahi

MichiH said:


> *SE40:* Torrequinto (A376) – Carretera de la Isla (A4) 8.1km (? to 2019?) – ? – map


A political charge of the spanish government has released a new date: spring 2019, I see it realistic:



> —Ya están abiertos dos tramos más de la SE-40, ¿se estrenará pronto el tramo en obras de Dos Hermanas?
> 
> —El tramo de Alcalá y Dos Hermanas está al ritmo adecuado y se estima que, salvo un arranque de año tremendamente lluvioso, esté acabado en la primavera de 2019.


http://elcorreoweb.es/sevilla/sevilla-lleva-estancada-siete-anos-pero-com-DE4431225


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## Highway89

An aerial video of the stretches u/c of the A-11 in Soria province as of 19th of May 2018.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Thanks so much!

To be more precise, this video shows, from east to west, the 3 A-11 sections betwen La Mallona and El Burgo de Osma bypass. Only the westernmost section (El Burgo de Osma - Santiuste) is supposed to open in 2018. The easternmost section (Venta Nueva – La Mallona) will open in 2019, while the middle section (Santiuste – Venta Nueva) is less advanced and I guess it won't open until 2020, at least.



MichiH said:


> *A11:* El Burgo de Osma-East – Santiuste 9.4km (2009/10 to September 2018) – ? – map
> 
> *A11:* Venta Nueva – La Mallona 6km (2009/10 to May 2019) – ? – map
> 
> *A11:* Santiuste – Venta Nueva 17km (2009/10 to ?) – ? – map


----------



## arctic_carlos

It's time again for the usual announcement of new delays in the opening dates of new motorway sections: 

First we start with the never ending story: Vallirana N-340 bypass, whose construction started in 2004. 



MichiH said:


> *B24:* Vallirana-West – Vallirana-East 2.1km (2005 to 2018) – project – map


Delayed to mid 2019.

Some pictures from June can be found here (I can't copy them in the post): http://www.vallirana.cat/ca/visita-a-les-obres-de-la-variant

And a video showing a visit to the construction site last June:






Now we head south to the Canary Islands:



MichiH said:


> *FV2:* south of Costa Calma – north of El Salmo 4.4km (? to Late 2018) – ? – map


Delayed to early 2019.










Source: https://www.canarias7.es/siete-isla...-la-autovia-del-sur-esta-finalizado-BK4936113



MichiH said:


> *A44:* Las Gabias (A338) – Alhendin 6.1km (September 2016 to Late 2018) – ? – map


Delayed to 2019, like the other sections of Granada outer bypass. Actually, this was the last section to be started and its degree of execution is thus lower, so an opening in 2018 is by no means possible.

That means that, hopefully, until the end of 2018 we'll witness the following openings:



MichiH said:


> *A11:* El Burgo de Osma-East – Santiuste 9.4km (2009/10 to September 2018) – ? – map
> *A2:* Macanet de la Selva (C35) – Sils 2.7km (July 2015 to Late 2018) – ? – map
> *A23:* north of Caldearenas – Alto de Monrepos 5km (< 2009 to Late 2018) – ? – map
> *FV1:* Corralejo – Lajares 6km (? to Late 2018) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
> *GC3:* Arucas (GC2) – Arucas 2km (2007 to Late 2018) – ? – map
> *N-II:* Terradelles – Vilafreser (AP7) 3.3km (June 2015 to >= 2018) – ? – map


----------



## MichiH

^^ Thanks! Do you really think there's a chance for N-II opening in 2018? I would bet FV1 and/or GC3 are also delayed as it's usual with the island projects...


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ N-II is quite a mystery, I haven’t found any news on local newspapers nor official statements. It’s a very short section and it’s not a difficult terrain, so maybe they open it together with the A-2 section.

GC-3 is quite advanced, 90% degree of execution according to an official source from last month. And I hope FV-1 isn’t delayed again, we’ll find out in the next months.


----------



## alserrod

Sometimes the same word is used for "minor works"


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> Ábalos announced that public consultation would begin on the N-629 upgrade at Puerto de los Tornos, which is a 920 meter high pass at the Cantabria border.
> 
> I wonder what they have planned here. A tunnel? A realignment?
> 
> N-629 is quite steep on the Cantabria side. Do you see that tiny hairpin turn just over the wall in the distance? That's also N-629, 400 meters lower in altitude.


The press release just says "mejora" so it should be a widening of the road with minor realignments. Tunnels or other major works are usually announced with most fanfare .


----------



## Highway89

There were some works to improve the N-629 in Cantabria, but they were stopped. Perhaps they could use some of the "new" allignment.










--------

Stetches of autopista and autovía > 1,000 m above sea level:


ajch said:


> Tramos de la red de autovias y autopistas por encima de 1000 metros de altitud


----------



## Little

I think that they want to start again the works in this road but maybe there is a need of changing something not included in the original impact evaluation.


----------



## Highway89

Some photos of the A-12 west of Logroño, from Navarrete to Santo Domingo de la Calzada (towards Burgos) taken on the 25th of June.

1.

A-12 4 by J GM, en Flickr

2.

A-12 6 by J GM, en Flickr

3.

A-12 10 by J GM, en Flickr

4.

A-12 12 by J GM, en Flickr

5.

A-12 17 by J GM, en Flickr

6.

A-12 18 by J GM, en Flickr

7.

A-12 24 by J GM, en Flickr

8.

A-12 27 by J GM, en Flickr

9.

A-12 29 by J GM, en Flickr

10.

A-12 30 by J GM, en Flickr


More photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157672035611707


----------



## Highway89

I spent last month walking the _Camino de Santiago_ pilgrimage route from the French-Spanish border in Somport to Santiago de Compostela. I had the chance to take some pictures of roads and motorways.

1. *N-330a* right at the border.

20180831_091336 by J GM, en Flickr

2. *N-330*. The facilities at the southern portal of the Somport tunnel (looking south)

20180831_114538 by J GM, en Flickr

3. Looking north

20180831_114731 by J GM, en Flickr

4.

20180831_115140 by J GM, en Flickr

5.

20180831_115143 by J GM, en Flickr

6. km 666 

20180831_115522 by J GM, en Flickr

7. Old defensive buildings next to the road.

20180831_120118 by J GM, en Flickr

8.

20180831_131434 by J GM, en Flickr

9.

20180831_150814 by J GM, en Flickr

10. The Peña Oroel in the background, which means we're approaching Jaca.

20180831_171515 by J GM, en Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice. And familiar! I stopped there for photos last year too


----------



## alserrod

I strongly recommend you to go from Canfranc to Jaca by train. You can do a return journey by bus (two daily trains about six buses) or in the evening, there is an option to make Canfranc-Jaca, stop there and wait for while to the evening Zaragoza-Canfranc

Reason?
Road go besides river, railway go over it and landscape is much nice from train


----------



## alserrod

Strongly agree

Sorry because I know this is a road thread but.... let me make a short off-topic


Wanna trek?

this middle age castle is 12 km on foot from railway (not easy to "find" but can be seen from train)












BONUS

Just to glance, enough to see Ridley Scott movie: Kingdom of Heaven with Orlando Bloom













Wanna climb?

350m rock, highest in Spain, just BESIDE railway track. There's a station in this small village. Mountaniards can be seen every weekend











La Peña and its station (small village away). This landscape can be seen












Jaca, cathedral... not in the railway track, obviously, but it is the oldest cathedral in the world (not the first one built but the oldest one built and not refurbished later. Hence it is romanesque style, not gothic, for instance!!)











Let's go to Canfranc!!

Cenarbe viaduct. Can anyone think how it was designed more than one century ago providing it is almost impossible to reach by carruages?











Seems a single viaduct but in the early 1900 wasn't so easy and nowadays you can go... even by train, even walking. No off-road can approach still!!



Villanua, small station (it is so far from village that a lot of people go to Canfranc and return by car or so) but in those times where the most important was to have a near station, doesn't matter road or path...











and reach to Canfranc station. I will not write about it because it deserve a thread (it has several ones, indeed, in SSC)


Today's trains











Side behind main building (THESE tracks are international gauge because French trains arrived till here, building was for exchange currency, customs, passports, buying both tickets, both post offices and so on)











It is planned to change all this area to touristic use (and railway museum) and there will be several tracks behind all buildings to remain traffic

and...

ready to continue here











It goes almost paralel to road tunnel (conversely, it was opened 80 years before). 14 out of 16 safety galleries connect both tunnels



It really deserve a journey.

Wanna go to Somport summit pass?

- with valley buses, 6 per day, you can stop in the Astun cross, 50m before. Can surf for schedules

- with SNCF it remains service to Bedous but nowadays it is Somport-Canfranc-via tunnel-Urdos-Bedous. You may surf on www.sncf.fr and look for schedules. Stop will be in France by several metres.


----------



## KRX_69

*A66 Sevilla - Mérida (07.10.2018)*

01.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

02.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

03.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

04.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

05.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

06.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

07.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

08.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

09.

A66 - saída Almadén de la Plata by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

10.

A66 - saída El Real de la Jara by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

11.

A66 - saída Cala by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

12.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

13.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

14.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

15.

A66 - saída Monesterio by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

16.

A66 - saída Fuente de Cantos by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

17.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


----------



## KRX_69

18.

A66 - saída Calzadilla de los Barros by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

19.

A66 - saída N432 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

20.

A66 - saía Los Santos de Maimona by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

21.

A66 - saída Villafranca de los Barros by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

22.

A66 - saída Villafranca de los Barros by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

23.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

24.

A66 - saída Almendralejo by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

25.

A66 - saída Almendralejo by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

26.

A66 - saída Torremejia by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

27.

A66 - saída Torremejia by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

28.

A66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

29.

A66 - saída Calamonte by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

30.

A66 - saída Mérida oeste by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

31.

A66 - saída Mérida oeste by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

32.

A66 - saída A5 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

:cheers:


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## alserrod

cool.... FYI, Madrid-Seville is a little faster via A-66 rather than A-4. After that road was upgraded with a motorway, most people prefer to use that route.
In addition, it is known, Moroccan people use it to avoid Madrid coming from Irun.


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## Highway89

I think KRX_69 must know Spanish roads better than many Spaniards :lol:

Anyway, some more pictures I took last month:

1. *N-240* west of Jaca

20180901_123643 by J GM, en Flickr

2.

20180901_125325 by J GM, en Flickr

3. Junction with *A-132*

20180901_133829 by J GM, en Flickr

4. *A-21* near Monreal, Navarre.

20180904_114804 by J GM, en Flickr

5. *AP-15* near Tiebas

20180905_123100 by J GM, en Flickr

6. *A-12* near Cirauqui/Zirauki

20180906_082234 by J GM, en Flickr

7.

20180906_082244 by J GM, en Flickr

8. *N-120* near Grañón, ready to be dualled

20180912_075616 by J GM, en Flickr

9. *N-120* near Villafranca Montes de Oca, the start of La Pedraja mountain pass

20180913_093854 by J GM, en Flickr

10.* AP-1* east of Burgos.

20180914_095551 by J GM, en Flickr


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## alserrod

picture number 3 is a weird junction. For a long time, if you came from Pamplona in the national road you had to make a stop. Nowadays, you haven't, but you will cross it at 40 km/h or so..

Luckely, with A-21 it will be gone and as easy as a little roundabout there


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## KRX_69

Highway89 said:


> I think KRX_69 must know Spanish roads better than many Spaniards :lol:


In Andaluzia, you bet :lol:


----------



## Highway89

Last round.

1. The *A-231* crossing the river Arlanzón just west of Burgos. 

20180915_102132 by J GM, en Flickr

2. There's this plaque in one of the pillars. Rough translation: _Pilgrim: Excuse us for this little detour. May your wishes of infinite walking come true. The river Arlanzón and us say: Forward!_
20180915_102111 by J GM, en Flickr

3. The *BU-P-4013* passes _through_ the ruins of the 15th century San Antón monastery.

20180916_075601 by J GM, en Flickr

4. The *A-67* near Frómista. The resurfacing works started a couple of days ago.

20180917_081031 by J GM, en Flickr

5. The *P-980*. Many local roads along the Way of St James include Santiago as a destination.

20180917_112147 by J GM, en Flickr

6. A local road in León province and the High Speed Line Valladolid-Palencia-León.

20180919_084219 by J GM, en Flickr

7. A recently opened strecht of the *A-60* near Mansilla de las Mulas

20180919_145022 by J GM, en Flickr

8. The *A-6* west of Astorga.

20180924_080915 by J GM, en Flickr

9. The *LE-142* near Foncebadón. The Meseta (central plateau) can be seen in the distance.

20180924_164818 by J GM, en Flickr

10. The *A-6* again, west of Ponferrada (between Camponaraya and Narayola, I think).

20180926_094955 by J GM, en Flickr

11. The *A-6* seen from the *N-006a* (license to kill be incogruously numbered?) in Ruitelán.

20180927_105708 by J GM, en Flickr

12. The *LU-633* and the *A-6* in the background, from O Cebreiro.

20180927_153453 by J GM, en Flickr

13. The *LU-633* at San Roque mountain pass

20180928_084037 by J GM, en Flickr

14. The *N-547* near Santa Irene, in A Coruña province.

20181003_105353 by J GM, en Flickr

15. The *AP-9* around Santiago de Compostela.

20181004_103021 by J GM, en Flickr

All (100+) pictures can be seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157672062885547


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Very nice! Interesting that they sign Santiago so far away along routes part of the Camino de Santiago. 

In my opinion, Spain is the best country in Europe for driving.
* generally good roads (alignment of secondary roads is often superior to France)
* reasonable speed limits, not infested with speed cameras
* great scenery
* low traffic volumes outside of urban areas
* affordable fuel prices


----------



## Highway89

^^ There's a sign for Santiago in Roncesvalles, the other "access" of the Camino de Santiago to Spain (apart from Somport): Santiago de Compostela 790. I don't remember seeing such a sign in Somport, but the distance would be 867 km.

One of the things I loved the most is how the scenery can change in just a few km. The first stage was already astonishing: In just about 30 km you go from the central Pyrenees to the dry plains of the Aragón valley in Jaca. But in fact I loved every bit and every piece of scenery I saw, including the never-ending flatlands on the Meseta.


----------



## CNGL

There's a sign for Santiago on N-240 near Puente la Reina de Jaca, distance is 820 km.

In other news, this Saturday I was able to confirm there are earthworks visible on the last section of A-22, mostly near the current end near Sietamo. Now I can believe on the completion of the motorway.


----------



## Highway89

Some photos of the last (westernmost) part of the *N-232*, between Haro (La Rioja) and Cabañas de Virtus (Burgos, Castilla y León).

The following pictures have been taken driving westbound.

1. The bypasses of Tirgo and Casalarreina opened in the 2000s with a expressway setup.

P6153948 by J GM, en Flickr

2. Some long straights in the Rioja Alta region.

P6153960 by J GM, en Flickr

3.

P6153965 by J GM, en Flickr

4. Entering the Bureba region in Burgos province (Castilla y León).

P6153996 by J GM, en Flickr

5. The _Montes Obarenes_ in the background.

P6154005 by J GM, en Flickr

6. Passing under the *AP-1* as we approach the junction with the *N-1*, with which the N-232 runs concurrent for some kilometers.

P6154019 by J GM, en Flickr

7. The *N-232* separates from the *N-1 *again at Santa María de Ribarredonda.

P6154045 by J GM, en Flickr

8. Long straights in La Bureba

P6154058 by J GM, en Flickr

9.

P6154086 by J GM, en Flickr

10. The road becomes more curvy as we approach Oña

P6154143 by J GM, en Flickr

11. Oña

P6154153 by J GM, en Flickr

12. After Oña begins the _Desfiladero del Oca_, (the canyon of the river Oca)

P6154155 by J GM, en Flickr

13. 

P6154160 by J GM, en Flickr

14.

P6154165 by J GM, en Flickr

15. The road narrows from here. This stretch wasn't refurbished in the 80s or 90s, unlike the rest of the road.

P6154169 by J GM, en Flickr

16. Junction with the *N-629*. You can reach Santander via N-232 (_El Escudo_ mountain pass) or via N-629 (_Los Tornos_ mountain pass).

P6154177 by J GM, en Flickr

To be continued...


----------



## Highway89

17. We enter the Valdivielso valley. 

P6154187 by J GM, en Flickr

18. The river Ebro has carved interested rock formations on the limestone.

P6154195 by J GM, en Flickr

19. Some hairpins.

P6154248 by J GM, en Flickr

20. The 735 m high _La Varga_ pass.

P6154253 by J GM, en Flickr

21. We're 520 km away from Vinaròs, on the Mediterranean coast. The way towards the sea is a bit longer for the river Ebro, though.
P6154258 by J GM, en Flickr

22.

P6154286 by J GM, en Flickr

23. Some scattered little villages here and there.

P6154303 by J GM, en Flickr

24.

P6154313 by J GM, en Flickr

25.

P6154367 by J GM, en Flickr

26. Approaching Valdenoceda, where the N-232 traffic has to yield to the *CL-629* coming from Burgos.

P6154375 by J GM, en Flickr

27.

P6154377 by J GM, en Flickr


----------



## Highway89

28. Between Valdenoceda and Incinillas the road goes through the _Desfiladero de los Hocinos_.

P6154395 by J GM, en Flickr

29.

P6154396 by J GM, en Flickr

30.

P6154398 by J GM, en Flickr

31.

P6154407 by J GM, en Flickr

32.

P6154429 by J GM, en Flickr

33. TOTSO

P6154442 by J GM, en Flickr

34. We begin the ascent to the 1,010 m high _Portillo de Manzanedo_ pass

P6154445 by J GM, en Flickr

35. This stretch features climbing lanes and truck runaway ramps, but the asphalt is a bit rough.

P6154460 by J GM, en Flickr

36. Some pictures from (almost) the top. Looking back. The old and the new roads.

P6154477 by J GM, en Flickr

37. New (1990s?) road

P6154493 by J GM, en Flickr

38. Old road

P6154504 by J GM, en Flickr


----------



## Highway89

The weather on the other side of the Manzanedo pass was rather bad, so I'll post these other pictures I took on a different day. 

39. Some kilometres ahead of Soncillo.

P7022392 by J GM, en Flickr

40. 

P7022397 by J GM, en Flickr

41. Exit to Virtus.

P7022406 by J GM, en Flickr

42. Leaving Las Cabañas [de Virtus]. In the background, the junction with the *N-623* and the first slopes of the El Escudo pass. To the left, on the top of a hill, you can also see a pyramid in which some Italian soldiers were buried.

P7022413 by J GM, en Flickr

43. The very end of the *N-232*.

P7022414 by J GM, en Flickr


Bonus: Some pictures of the Soncillo-Portillo de Manzanedo stretch that I could not photograph the first day. Please note that the following pictures were taken eastbound (towards the opposite direction than the previous ones).

44. Bilbao is signed because the former *C-6318* (Bilbao-Reinosa) intersects the *N-232* right at Soncillo.

P7022311 by J GM, en Flickr

45. 

P7022673 by J GM, en Flickr

46. This area feels quite empty.

P7022677 by J GM, en Flickr

47. 144 km to the next province capital: Logroño.

P7022697 by J GM, en Flickr

48.

P7022689 by J GM, en Flickr

49.

P7022709 by J GM, en Flickr

50. Portillo de Manzanedo again.

P7022715 by J GM, en Flickr


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## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *A2:* Macanet de la Selva (C35) – Sils 2.7km (July 2015 to Late 2018) – ? – map


November 2018.



MichiH said:


> *N-II:* Terradelles – Vilafreser (AP7) 3.3km (June 2015 to >= 2018) – ? – map


April 2019.

Source: https://www.diaridegirona.cat/comarques/2018/10/07/puigdemont-ha-mal-president-catalunya/939145.html


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## ChrisZwolle

Heavy rainfall around Valencia has disrupted traffic. This is V-31 near Silla:


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## Highway89

The highest paved road in La Rioja is the 1,855 m (6,085 ft) high Cruz de la Demanda. It is in fact a forest track that was paved in order for trucks to get better access to timber. At the end of it, it just turns into a gravel road. This road has been used for some stages of the _Vuelta a España _cycling race.










1. We first take the LR-415 from Ezcaray

P6259730 by J GM, en Flickr

2. The last village is Posadas. Here, the LR-415 officially ends. But you can continue on a paved track.

P6259770 by J GM, en Flickr

3. For the first kilometres we go along the river Oja.

P6259774 by J GM, en Flickr

4. Then we start to climb the side of the mountain.

P6259791 by J GM, en Flickr

5.

P6259839 by J GM, en Flickr

6. The last part is the most boring. Almost-straight allignments connected with hairpins and surrounded by pines.

P6259867 by J GM, en Flickr

7. The top.

P6259888 by J GM, en Flickr

Some views from the top:
8. To the East

P6250172 by J GM, en Flickr

9. To the South

P6250107 by J GM, en Flickr

10. To the West (This part belongs to Burgos, in Castilla y León)

P6250331 by J GM, en Flickr

11. To the North

P6250326 by J GM, en Flickr

Now some photos of the descent (which is actually the same side as the ascent, but the lighting conditions were different, so I could take better pictures):

12. I wonder why they even bothered to put this speed limit sign.

P6250227 by J GM, en Flickr
13.

P6250553 by J GM, en Flickr

14. There's a little hydroelectric power station nearby. 

P6250561 by J GM, en Flickr

15.

P6250578 by J GM, en Flickr

16.

P6250581 by J GM, en Flickr

17.

P6250590 by J GM, en Flickr

18. Posadas. We're back on the LR-415

P6250669 by J GM, en Flickr

19.

P6250671 by J GM, en Flickr

20. Back to Ezcaray

P6250719 by J GM, en Flickr

More photos are available here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157702424653954


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## Highway89

Current status of the new bypass of Granada near Las Gabias:


hydrogen said:


> Quisiera compartir el estado en el que se encuentra la Segunda Circunvalación de Granada a su paso por Las Gabias, concretamente en el cruce con el Camino de las Herraduras, vista hacia el norte:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Le queda (opinando desde lo más profano) alguna capa de asfalto más, (aunque el piso ya es lo bastante bueno como para poder circular a unos 40-60km/h), vegetación, quitamiedos, señalización y accesos.


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> Heavy rainfall around Valencia has disrupted traffic. This is V-31 near Silla:



Today it's the area between Málaga and Sevilla that's being affected by heavy rainfall.


This is the A-7 near Estepona:https://twitter.com/malagadiurna/status/1053992980128915456

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1053992980128915456

The A-92 is also affected.


----------



## adevahi

A-92 was cut yesterday night, between Estepa and Osuna for several hours. Some hundreds cars were stopped until the Guardia Civil allowed to go back by opening the crash barriers.

New in Spanish about that.


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## CNGL

Some fresh news about roads in my province... and it's not about A-21, A-22 or A-23, but national road N-260. There is one section that is still a goat path in between two up to standard ones, that runs from the Balupor tunnels (West of Boltaña) to Fiscal. This 14 km section is so long it doesn't fit into just one hemisphere  (it crosses the IERS Reference Meridian or as I call it the "Berbegal Meridian", which isn't quite the same as the Greenwich Meridian). Fomento has finally unlocked this section as they have put it up to public information for the update of the EIS, which originally was negative and now they have replaced two short tunnels with a long (1,760 meter) one at the Eastern end. If I was in charge of Fomento I'd start this section ASAP, as it is already part of my preferred route to L'Ainsa since the Caldearenas-Lanave section of A-23 opened.


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## alserrod

It is indeed faster route Huesca-L'Ainsa . Natural path is through Barbastro but after N-260 opened Sabiñanigo-Fiscal, later some extra more A-23 and nowadays this upgrading, it will be faster to reach central Pyrenees.


----------



## clickgr

This would be a good alternative also for reaching Benasque and the ski resort of Cerler from Huesca and avoid the dangerous and tiring narrow road near the cliffs via Barbastro and Graus.


----------



## alserrod

Yes and no...

You will avoid Graus-Campo road but it is not bad at all

Campo-Benasque will be the same in both paths. This is, routes will join till Campo and same road till ski resort.

Campo-Castejon de Sos is really undergraded nowadays (Balupor-Fiscal too and will be upgraded). Barbastro-Graus-Campo doesn't have any problem except crossing Graus.
In addition, A-22 in the nearbies of Huesca is on going nowadays.

Fiscal road will be fine to go to L'Ainsa but guess not far away (well, fine if you come from Bilbao/Pamplona)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Ábalos said some things about investment in infrastructure in and around Barcelona. 

Asimismo, Ábalos anunció que habrá un impulso de los estudios y proyectos de:

O el anteproyecto de adecuación de la A-2 entre Igualda y Martorell (34 km; 512,5 millones de euros).​
>> https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/mie-24102018-0804

I don't recall having read about this project before. That is quite a serious upgrade if they plan to spend € 500 million on 34 kilometers of autovía. That is more money per kilometer than most autovías are built brand new for. I wonder what the plans are.


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## CNGL

That section was previously announced to be in a 2nd phase of the old 1st generation expressway (_autovía_) reconstruction plan, which in the end only saw the rebuilding of parts of A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4 and A-31 (A-2 got lucky and was rebuilt all the way from Madrid to Alfajarin just past Zaragoza). At least it's not forgotten.


----------



## Highway89

Some updates:



> *A56:* A Barrela-North (Estivada) – As Lamas (OU901) 8.8km (2008 to Mid 2019) – project – map


*-> Late 2019*
https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...233457216123854.htm?__twitter_impression=true












> *A54:* Lavacolla – Arzua-West 18.5km (? to 2019) – ? – map


Videos:


facedeobraspordios said:


> Boa noite,
> 
> Vistas as carencias da miña reportaxe anterior, hoxe subo os vídeos pendentes máis outro do enlace -moi avanzado- entre a antiga A-54 e a nova.
> 
> 1) Obras do enlace da A-54 coa nacional cerca de Arzúa:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2) Obras do enlace da antiga A-54 co novo treito de Arzúa cerca de Lavacolla:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3) Obras A-54 en Pedrouzo:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4) Viaducto de Furelos. Día 22 de outubro de 2018:







> *SE40:* Torrequinto (A376) – Carretera de la Isla (A4) 8.1km (? to Spring 2019) – ? – map


Photos and comparison between September and October 2018:


> EuroBetis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Volvemos de nuevo, ahora con más resolución
> 
> Por lo general, el cambio viene porque la mayor parte ya está recibiendo las últimas capas de asfalto. Las fotos no hacen honor a lo que se percibe en persona. Hay movimiento en todas las zonas, coches pasando, obreros de un lado para otro, y sobre todo apisonadoras de un lado para otro.
> 
> 
> Septiembre 2018
> 
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> Octubre 2018
> 
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> EuroBetis said:
> 
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> 
> Septiembre 2018
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Octubre 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EuroBetis said:
> 
> 
> 
> En las dos ultimas fotos de Octubre este mensaje se pueden apreciar los pilares que pasan por encima de la via del tren, e incluso la zona de la carretera que pasa entre la N-IV y la A-4. Coincide justo con una torre de alta tensión. A simple vista se ve muy bien, pero en la foto de septiembre apenas se notaba y ahora con mas resolucion pienso que se ve bastante mejor lo que comento
> 
> Septiembre 2018
> 
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> Octubre 2018
> 
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> 
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> EuroBetis said:
> 
> 
> 
> El cambio aquí es evidente. En septiembre no justo habian comenzado las obras y acaban de desviar un carril. Pero solo eso.
> 
> En Octubre sin embargo, han levantado completamente la carretera que pasa por debajo para hacer la rotonda, que ya se esta haciendo. Han colocado los pilares de la SE-40, y como veis, los tramos de alrededor ya estan bien asfaltados. Solo queda colocar las vigas y se nota que queda muy poco para que eso ocurre. Puede ser cualquier dia de estos.
> 
> Septiembre 2018
> 
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> Octubre 2018
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> Click to expand...
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> EuroBetis said:
> 
> 
> 
> La parte que pasa por encima de la via del tren no ha avanzado nada. Esta exactamente igual que en septiembre. Asi que pongo fotos desde otros puntos.
> 
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> A su paso por la N-IV
> 
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> Click to expand...
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> EuroBetis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Y otra zona que ha avanzado mucho, la interseccion con la A-4
> 
> Septiembre 2018
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> En esta puede verse el puente que viene justo despues de la A-4 y antes del rio. Hice foto de el en Septiembre.
> 
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> Todos los puentes para las salidas e incorporaciones estan ya hechos. En el ultimo de ellos pusieron las vigas el finde pasado
> 
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> En esta foto puede verse a lo lejos el puente que pasa por la N-IV. La gracia es que estoy en la A-4 asi que lo poco que se ve de carretera es entre ambas
> 
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> Click to expand...
Click to expand...





> *A12:* Burgos-East (AP1) – Ibeas de Juarros 4.2km (November 2017 to Spring 2020) – ? – map


The works are stopped. I think they are waiting for the tolls on the AP-1 to end so that they can modify the project. On the Spanish forum we've been discussing this issue. My proposal is that they build the A-12 north of the Montes de Oca mountains and use part of the future toll-free A-1 north of Burgos:


----------



## Highway89

There is a project for the current AP-68 south of Logroño to become a bypass by taking out the tolls and adding new junctions.

These are some highlights from the project. Please note that the North is pointing downwards (more or less):

1. Eastern new toll plaza and new junction with the N-232. Location: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.39114,-2.2243473,1873a,35y,180h/data=!3m1!1e3

24-10-2018 14.10.15 51 by J GM, en Flickr

2. New junction with the LR-459. Location: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4164191,-2.2602346,1916a,35y,240h/data=!3m1!1e3

24-10-2018 14.10.52 52 by J GM, en Flickr

3. Slight modification of the junction with the LO-20/A-12 to Pamplona. Location: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.448485,-2.3499652,1914a,35y,180h/data=!3m1!1e3

24-10-2018 14.10.33 53 by J GM, en Flickr


24-10-2018 14.10.51 54 by J GM, en Flickr

4. New junction with the LR-250 near Villamediana. Location: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4423454,-2.4175574,2585a,35y,150h/data=!3m1!1e3

24-10-2018 14.10.2 55 by J GM, en Flickr

5. Modification of the junction with the N-111. Location: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4331356,-2.465026,2553a,35y,180h/data=!3m1!1e3

24-10-2018 14.10.57 56 by J GM, en Flickr

6. Western new toll plaza and new _autovía _A-68. Location: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4295381,-2.5254516,1740a,35y,210h/data=!3m1!1e3

24-10-2018 14.10.55 57 by J GM, en Flickr

7. New junction with the A-12 and the future bypass of Fuenmayor (N-232). Location: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4364629,-2.5422973,2518a,35y,210h/data=!3m1!1e3

24-10-2018 13.10.55 48 by J GM, en Flickr

For more details, you can see: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=153459600&postcount=301


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## Highway89

Let's better jump to the next page.


----------



## Highway89

Some photos of the A-1 bypassing Vitoria-Gasteiz direction France.

1. The western branch of the old N-I through Vitoria-Gasteiz was renumbered as N-102. In this kind of situations (when 3 lanes become 4 just before splitting) the Spanish signage is extremely confusing -and this isn't even the worst example









2. Old autovía signage: Blue over white









3. Álava/Araba kilometer posts










4. More old signs









5. France in Spanish and Arabic, but not in French (nor Basque)









6. The future Basque "Y" High Speed Line









7. The eastern branch of the old N-I through Vitoria-Gasteiz was renumbered as N-104









8.









9. This looks like a more compressed version of the FHWA-E font









10.









More photos: https://imgur.com/a/LV9LNyL


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice photos. N-I was twinned to a four lane road between Miranda de Ebro and Vitoria-Gasteiz during the 1970s, but I believe it was too substandard to be considered even a first generation autovía. It followed present-day N-102 into the city.

The bypass of Vitoria was opened mostly in 1990, but the eastern end not until 1997. The Vitoria bypass - despite being built in the "first generation autovía" era, was built with modern standards, including cloverleafs with collector lanes with N-622 and N-240. 

It wasn't until the 2000s that the 1970s N-I between Armiñón and Vitoria was upgraded to a six lane motorway, which was basically an entirely new road, except immediately west of Vitoria where the existing four lane road was expanded to a modern motorway.

Google Earth has a satellite image of this area dating back to 1991, so you can see how it all used to be.


----------



## MichiH

Highway89 said:


> Let's better jump to the next page.



No. Why? I don't see any reason! And you can setup a personal number of posts per page, pages do not end/start exactly where they end/start for you. It's just a useless behavior and a useless post in-between (like my post too).


----------



## Aokromes

MichiH said:


> No. Why? I don't see any reason! And you can setup a personal number of posts per page, pages do not end/start exactly where they end/start for you. It's just a useless behavior and a useless post in-between (like my post too).


post of people uses default posts per page settings, making a new page before a big amount of photos allows people with bad connections faster load.


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## alserrod

I read some news about booths in AP-68 junction with AP-1 are almost all ready to be used again.

It just remain one month (and three days) for toll free


----------



## alserrod

+1

if larger pictures I prefer not more than 2-3 per post

I remember one Spanish motorway already finished. One forumer made a complete documentary with a lot of pictures. After that post, really, nothing to say about it (motorway finished, info in the thread, no more works...). From time to time a new post , you opened thread and... the post with huge pictures was atop in the page, therefore, everytime, loading pictures. I always avoided to open it from a mobile, for instance


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Lots of snow has fallen in Northern Spain. Pajares reports 60 centimeters. This is AP-66 in Asturias. All truck traffic is stopped from going across the mountains from the coast to the Meseta.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm looking at the history of the road plans of autonomous communities in Spain.

In case of Madrid, I could not find any road plans. I did found news reports about the _Plan de Carreteras de la Comunidad de Madrid 2007-2011_ but I could not find the plans themselves, nor any reference to earlier or later road plans. 

Have they stopped making road plans? Other autonomous communities still make new ones. Sometimes there appear to be gaps in them, with an investment plan between official road plans as a stopgap measure. But in case of Madrid, the 2007-2011 plan was the only one I could find. The website of the autonomous communities only talks about a road conservation plan.


----------



## Little

On national level, they are infrastructure plans, they are not separated into roads, railway, etc.

This is a link for the current PITVI

https://www.fomento.gob.es/planes-e...ucturas-transporte-y-vivienda-pitvi-2012-2024

Another link for the PEIT. This one has an English version

https://www.fomento.es/plan-estrategico-de-infraestructuras-y-transporte-peit

But I can't find the complete document of previous plans.


----------



## Highway89

This is the current (2010-2021) road plan for La Rioja: https://www.larioja.org/carreteras/es/destacados/plan-carreteras-rioja-2010-2021

The previous one (2000, click on "PDF"): https://www.larioja.org/normativa-autonomica/es?modelo=NA&norma=43

Both are ridiculously unrealistic. Basically, they plan to turn every road into a 6 m (or more) wide one with modern allignment standards, which most of the times means wasting millions of Euros on local roads with almost no traffic at all. Thankfully they're never fulfilled.


----------



## Highway89

Some photos of the N-120 between Burgos and Santo Domingo de la Calzada. This is an important road for East-West traffic on the northern half of the Iberian peninsula.

1. Leaving the A-1









2. The first town we have to pass through is Castañares









3. Lots of traffic here









4. Passing under the AP-1









5.









6. Second town: Ibeas de Juarros









7. If you fancy archaeology, you can visit the Sierra de Atapuerca site: _The caves of the Sierra de Atapuerca contain a rich fossil record of the earliest human beings in Europe, from nearly one million years ago and extending up to the Common Era. _ (http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/989)









8.









9.









10. We start to climb the 1,150 m high La Pedraja pass. On this side, the climb is almost unnoticeable









11. If there's such a thing as the Continental Divide in Europe/Iberia, La Pedraja is one of the passes.









12. We've just crossed from the Duero (Atlantic) to the Ebro (Mediterranean) basin









13. Loaded HGVs struggling to climb, which causes queues on the other side









14. Another town: Villafranca Montes de Oca (Frankish village on the Goose mountains :lol: )










15.









16.









17. Back to flat terrain









18. This narrow medieval bridge in Belorado is still in use.









19.









20.









21. The last town in Castilla y León: Redecilla del Camino. That breast-shaped hill has always been the sign that we're approaching home









22.










23.










24. Driving eastbound, you'll find this bunch of grapes which means we're in La Rioja. If you drive westboud, you'll see shells representing the Way of St. James (pilgrimage route to Santiago de Compostela)









25. Santo Domingo de la Calzada in the background














More photos: https://imgur.com/a/KpTiTOr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There seems to be quite a bit of truck traffic. I looked at AADT data, the 2016 traffic volume on N-120 in Burgos province ranges from 4,300 to 7,800 vehicles per day, but the truck share is quite high: 22-37%.


----------



## verreme

^^ Speaking of N-120, I wonder why the AP-1 bridge over the road has a space reservation for another carriageway. Were they planning to widen N-120 already in the 1970s? A motorway between Logroño and Burgos has had to wait almost 40 years (and counting...) and it won't be a duplication of the existing road but an all-new alignment.


----------



## CNGL

About for regional plans, here's the Aragon one for 2013-2024: https://transparencia.aragon.es/sites/default/files/documents/plangeneralcarreteras_2013-2024.pdf. Includes a road log as it was back in 2013, so the newest additions aren't there.


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> There seems to be quite a bit of truck traffic. I looked at AADT data, the 2016 traffic volume on N-120 in Burgos province ranges from 4,300 to 7,800 vehicles per day, but the truck share is quite high: 22-37%.



There was indeed a lot of trucks, most of them long-distance traffic. This, combined with the lack of climbing lanes and the narrowing of the road at certain villages made the trip uncomfortable, especially if you're been driving on the A-231 or A-12 before.


The same happens with the N-122 (future A-11 & A-15):


Valle de Olid said:


>





Valle de Olid said:


> En Alcañices :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aceras de 50cm y balcones llenos de pintura de rozones de camiones.




These two cases are good examples that AADT figures don't always tell the whole truth. I've driven on roads with higher AADT that feel comfortable and safe because you can keep a good speed. However, on the N-120 and N-122, drivers (including truck drivers) become impatient and sometimes try dangerous overtakings.




verreme said:


> ^^ Speaking of N-120, I wonder why the AP-1 bridge over the road has a space reservation for another carriageway. Were they planning to widen N-120 already in the 1970s? A motorway between Logroño and Burgos has had to wait almost 40 years (and counting...) and it won't be a duplication of the existing road but an all-new alignment.



That's something I've always wondered too. In Logroño, the AP-68 & AP-1 have since the beginning been signed as the motorway connection to Burgos (example). A dualling of the N-120 has always found opposition (and still does) on the concessionaire companies of the AP-68 and AP-1.


----------



## CNGL

When I did the infamous N-2 between Alfajarin and Fraga I managed to keep a good speed and didn't got stuck behind a truck. The trick? Doing it on a Sunday . However I passed a convoy of 5 trucks on the other direction.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Logroño*

Logroño via A-8 / AP-68 or N-629.


A-8-127 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Highway89

^^ According to Google Maps, via N-629 it takes ~40 minutes more. I've always used the A-8/AP-68. However, from what I've heard, on Sunday evenings the A-8 becomes a car-park all the way from Castro Urdiales to Bilbao, so taking the N-629 could be better.

Now I've just noticed that the N-629 is one of the "new" national roads that appeared in the 1980s. Maybe the previous road was upgraded to N-629 because of that. It also allowed a faster connection between eastern Cantabria and Burgos, avoiding the El Escudo pass.


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## ChrisZwolle

The bypass of Jaca (A-21, A-23) could be tendered in December, with construction starting late 2019 or early 2020.

>> https://www.heraldo.es/noticias/ara...on-proximo-mes-diciembre-1275962-2261127.html


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## CNGL

How I've missed that? I follow regional newspaper Heraldo on Twitter... I hope they do so fast despite NIMBYism in the area, there's a row who want the bypass on the South, but the project is already done on the North, and has less enviromental impact.


----------



## Highway89

^^ I remember seeing some banners hanging from balconies in Jaca opposing to the bypass. Not many, but it certainly is uncommon that people actively express their opposition to motorway projects in Spain.


By the way, this post by ChrisZwolle on the Romanian thread about the Sideling Hill road cut made me wonder which cut might be the biggest in Spain.

One of the most spectacular I've seen is this one along the A-2 near Contamina: 








https://goo.gl/maps/AbTtudvd1k82


Edited: Some recent pictures of the works on the A-23 in the Monrepós area: https://www.nevasport.com/phorum/read.php?75,2170394,page=19


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## CNGL

I'll be passing through it next Sunday. It's one of my favorite spots as it is the first place I can glimpse one of my favorite towns, which lies 15 km after that point. However this time unless I do something weird I won't reach Ariza :lol:.


----------



## alserrod

Highway.... you have spotted the corner in the world where it... wouldn't be weird to find CNGL on route!!


----------



## Highway89

Some photos of the *BU-550*, a 57 km long road in Burgos province, commonly known as the road _from Burgos to Bilbao via Peña Angulo pass_. 

1. We start in Pedrosa de Tobalina










2. Near Quintana Entrepeñas. A "Quintana" is basically a farmhouse. Entrepeñas means "between rocks". 









3. The road passes through the _Cañón del Jerea_. There are a few high-voltage power lines, which in the past were used to carry electricity from the Garoña nuclear power plant to the Bilbao area.









4. Quintanilla La Ojada. This area is called "Merindades" - a "Merindad" is a group of very small villages or farmhouses usually belonging to the same valley o having another geographical feature in common, each of which were managed by a Merino (that's the origin of the name of the breed of sheep).









5. The old bridge is still in use.









6. We're now in the Valle de Losa. The chapel of San Pantaleón is visible from the road.









7.









8.









9. 









10. Arriving at the roundabout where the BU-550 meets the *BU-552*.









11. Driving westbound on the BU-552









12.









13.









14. Castrobarto









15. Descending into the Merindad de Montija









16. In the background, the mountains that separate us from Cantabria (which is covered by clouds, as usual :lol









17. Arriving at the junction with the *N-629*.









18. We now take the* BU-542* to Espinosa de los Monteros









19.









20.











More photos: 
https://imgur.com/a/aFdEvBM
https://imgur.com/a/ZO35Sew


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## ChrisZwolle

It looks like a decent standard road.


----------



## Highway89

Most roads managed by the Junta de Castilla y León are pretty good. Many of them were refurbished in the 1990s and 2000s. There are exceptions, of course, but they're generally better than La Rioja's or Aragón's.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*AP-1*

Minister of Fomento, Ábalos, has confirmed today that AP-1 between Burgos and Armiñón will become free of charge on 1 December.

https://www.larioja.com/la-rioja/gratis-partir-diciembre-20181108155438-nt.html


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## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> Minister of Fomento, Ábalos, has confirmed today that AP-1 between Burgos and Armiñón will become free of charge on 1 December.
> 
> https://www.larioja.com/la-rioja/gratis-partir-diciembre-20181108155438-nt.html


Does the parallel N-1 have a lot of long-distance traffic just avoiding the tolls?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

According to 2016 data, there are some 9,000 - 9,500 vehicles per day on N-I, which is higher than you would expect from the small communities served. The truck share is 50%, which gives you the idea how many trucks avoid the tolls.

On the other hand, AP-1 has a fairly decent amount of traffic for a toll road with such high tolls and a good alternative: nearly 20,000 vehicles per day. 

The toll rate is € 12.25 for only 82 km of toll road.


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## Highway89

I have some photos of the *N-1* in the stretch between Pancorbo and Cubo de Bureba (i.e., where it runs concurrent with *N-232*)

1. This sums it up pretty well: Speed cameras, lots of trucks and impatient drivers overtaking dangerously









2.









3. Several parts have a super-two configuration









4.









5.


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Does the parallel N-1 have a lot of long-distance traffic just avoiding the tolls?


I often take A-12 at least one per year in each direction.

I am wondering to take A-12 until Santo Domingo, turn north, take N-232 and free A-1 next time. A small detour but absolutely for free. Therefore, less traffic in N-120 (let's wait they get up with works again)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-5 Paseo de Extremadura, Madrid*

The city of Madrid has plans to convert the first few kilometers of A-5 to a four lane road with traffic lights and bus lanes. This has angered the southern municipalities, as studies have shown that congestion would increase by 350%.

This part of A-5 is a weird kind of urban expressway. I don't think it has actual autovía status but it is a six lane roadway with no stops despite running through some densely built areas. The easternmost section to M-30 is tunneled, but the rest is not.


----------



## CNGL

Meanwhile in Huesca province...









A rockslide has blocked N-260 near Sabiñanigo, forcing drivers to detour along the old, narrower, curvier alignment through Cotefablo pass. Pic from provincial newspaper Diario del AltoAragón.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The bypass of Jaca (A-21, A-23) could be tendered in December, with construction starting late 2019 or early 2020.
> 
> >> https://www.heraldo.es/noticias/ara...on-proximo-mes-diciembre-1275962-2261127.html


The same was announced two years ago:



CNGL said:


> In other news, the Jaca bypass is going to be put up for tender soon.


Is it delayed by two years or was a tender started and stopped?


Any news about the tender for Sigüés - Tiermas? A22 is already u/c now.



arctic_carlos said:


> Besides, two new sections will be tendered during the summer:
> *A21*: Sigüés - Tiermas (6.6 km)
> *A22*: Huesca - Siétamo (13.2 km)
> 
> Source: http://www.lavanguardia.com/local/a...truir-el-tramo-huesca-sietamo-de-la-a-22.html


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ And so it is Sigüés - Tiermas, which is already on your list since last May.


----------



## MichiH

icard: sorry


----------



## CNGL

MichiH said:


> The same was announced two years ago:
> 
> Is it delayed by two years or was a tender started and stopped?


Short answer: NIMBYs. Fomento won't be changing the project since it would require doing all paperwork again.


----------



## MichiH

^^ So, what happened in the past 2 years? They've discussed the documents with the NIMBYs and convinced them?


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## Highway89

Burgos is probably the only "small" (<200k) city in Spain to have a complete ringroad, the *BU-30*. The first stretches were built in 1984, but it wasn't completed until 2016.

1. Clockwise, starting from the junction with the A-73 (north of Burgos). Entering the "Túnel de Fuentebuena", opened in 2015









2.









3.









4.









5.









6. "Ceinture est obligatoire", in French









7.









8. Counterclockwise, again starting from the junction with the A-73 (north of Burgos)









9.









10.









11.









12. Merging with the *A-231*









13. One would think that you can reach Madrid via *N-234*... but in fact it means that you have to take the *A-1* if you want to reach the *N-234*









14.









15. The "nudo de Landa" or Landa junction. Here begins the oldest part









16. It was built to "Autopista" standards, although it was toll-free









17.









18. And we take the AP-1











More photos: https://imgur.com/a/G33I0gE


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## ChrisZwolle

Ah, the infamous "Bingo" signs.


----------



## alserrod

One year ago I tried to know if corner to corner would be faster northbound or southbound in Burgos, providing more traffic in south but a bit longer in north.

First journey, southbound, took times
Return, northbound, accident and congestion...

Another day I...will take times :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*SE-40*

The media report that the Fomento commission in parliament has approved plans / urged the government to include the SE-40 tunnels under the Guadalquivir near Sevilla in the PIC - _Plan Extraordinario de Inversión en Carreteras_, the plan of extraordinary highway investment. The PIC includes a number of large projects, the PIC was originally a PP plan of the Rajoy government but the inclusion of SE-40 was also sponsored by PSOE. 

Maybe we'll finally see some progress on this dossier.


https://www.diariodesevilla.es/sevilla/Congreso-impulsar-obras-SE-40-tuneles_0_1300070460.html


----------



## Little

ChrisZwolle said:


> The media report that the Fomento commission in parliament has approved plans / urged the government to include the SE-40 tunnels under the Guadalquivir near Sevilla in the PIC - _Plan Extraordinario de Inversión en Carreteras_, the plan of extraordinary highway investment. The PIC includes a number of large projects, the PIC was originally a PP plan of the Rajoy government but the inclusion of SE-40 was also sponsored by PSOE.
> 
> Maybe we'll finally see some progress on this dossier.
> 
> 
> https://www.diariodesevilla.es/sevilla/Congreso-impulsar-obras-SE-40-tuneles_0_1300070460.html


As far as I know, the PIC is no longer a plan. The new minister apparently have decided to abandon it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ It was reported that Ábalos wants to continue the PIC: https://cincodias.elpais.com/cincodias/2018/07/12/companias/1531397458_919230.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-63*

Minister of Fomento, Ábalos, visited Asturias today. Among the announcements is that a tender will start for the second carriageway of A-63 between Salas and "El Regueirón" (I assume this is La Espina). Some bridges on this section are already built.


----------



## Little

ChrisZwolle said:


> Minister of Fomento, Ábalos, visited Asturias today. Among the announcements is that a tender will start for the second carriageway of A-63 between Salas and "El Regueirón" (I assume this is La Espina). Some bridges on this section are already built.


No, it's right. It's impossible to build a second carriageway further than the Regueiron bridge, without demolishing some existing bridges, so they decided to finish the motorway there.

There might be the possibility of finishing the motorway again passing those bridges but it seems that they don't have any plan about that.

All the bridges from Salas to La Espina are already built, except those I mentioned above, for the second carriageway.


----------



## Little

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ It was reported that Ábalos wants to continue the PIC: https://cincodias.elpais.com/cincodias/2018/07/12/companias/1531397458_919230.html


Yes, but the Minister of Economics seems to think differently. I have heard in Fomento that the PIC is practically death.


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> Minister of Fomento, Ábalos, visited Asturias today. Among the announcements is that a tender will start for the second carriageway of A-63 between Salas and "El Regueirón" (I assume this is La Espina). Some bridges on this section are already built.


What sort of traffic volumes does that section get? Surely not enough to justify a second carriageway?


----------



## Reivajar

Little said:


> No, it's right. It's impossible to build a second carriageway further than the Regueiron bridge, without demolishing some existing bridges, so they decided to finish the motorway there.
> 
> There might be the possibility of finishing the motorway again passing those bridges but it seems that they don't have any plan about that.
> 
> All the bridges from Salas to La Espina are already built, except those I mentioned above, for the second carriageway.


Where is this bridge?


----------



## Little

Reivajar said:


> Where is this bridge?


I hope I'm doing it right.

Chincheta
cerca de N-634, 33860 Salas, Asturias
https://maps.google.com/?q=43.415086,-6.274267

It's the only bridge wide enough for both carriageways.

No, this road has barely 1000 vehicles per day. But it is a compensation for the closing of coal mining in the area...


----------



## adevahi

ChrisZwolle said:


> The media report that the Fomento commission in parliament has approved plans / urged the government to include the SE-40 tunnels under the Guadalquivir near Sevilla in the PIC - _Plan Extraordinario de Inversión en Carreteras_, the plan of extraordinary highway investment. The PIC includes a number of large projects, the PIC was originally a PP plan of the Rajoy government but the inclusion of SE-40 was also sponsored by PSOE.
> 
> Maybe we'll finally see some progress on this dossier.
> 
> 
> https://www.diariodesevilla.es/sevilla/Congreso-impulsar-obras-SE-40-tuneles_0_1300070460.html


There will be elections in Andalousia december the 2nd, and Sevilla is located there. Now, the importance for these new get another POV.

BTW, these tunnels are divided in two projects, both with a couple of tunnels, and each tunnel with two lanes.
The north ones (don't get wrong about the name: they are also at the south of the city of Sevilla, between N-IV and A-8058) can't be included in the PIC, as far as I know, because the workings already started (there were works only between 2009-2010 more or less) and the project (obviously) is done.
The south ones, however, can be included in the PIC as far as I know, because even considered that also some working were already done years ago, their projects must be changed to new ones due to some new requirements imposed by CHG (the public authority for the river that these tunnels are crossing, Guadalquivir).


----------



## Highway89

The *A-2128* is a road in Álava province, Basque Country, which links the A-1 at Salvatierra/Agurain with the A-132 in Santa Cruz de Campezo via the 1,020 m / 3,350 ft Opakua mountain pass. Opakua, similarly to the Urbasa and Lizarraga mountain passes to the west (already in Navarre) is one of the mountain passes of this area that is most likely to be closed due to snow in winter.


1. Going southerly, from Salvatierra/Agurain









2. The town of Opakua









3.









4. Old mileposts have been kept in Álava. This one indicates 40 km to Estella. On the other side, the distance to Vitoria-Gasteiz is posted.









5. Entering a new Cuadrilla (~shire, in other parts of Spain called Merindad or Comarca)









6. The pass itself. The first time I see parentheses being used in this kind of signs









7.









8. This road is quite fun to drive









9. The town of Kontrasta in the background









10. We are now in the Valle de Arana (_Arana_ means valley in Basque so it's a redundancy)









11. Approaching Alda









12. San Vicente de Arana / Done Bikendi Harana









13. The road narrows...









14. ...as it gets into a canyon









15. And once we're out of it, we can see Santa Cruz de Campezo. In the background, the Ioar mountain. My homwtown (Logroño) is on the other side, some 20 km from here in a straight line









More pictures: https://imgur.com/a/Rm9Y2zX


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-8 Cantabria*

Autovía A-8 along the north coast of Spain, in eastern Cantabria, between Laredo and Castro Urdiales. It is a scenic section of autovía, there are plans to expand it to six lanes.

The mountains appear much higher than they actually are (300-500 m). If this was in the Alps, you'd guess some 1500 m or even more.

There are some views of the Atlantic Ocean. This portion is called the Cantabrian Sea in Spain (Mar Cantábrico). This name is not really known in the Netherlands, the whole thing is generally referred to as the Gulf of Biscay. Though the name Biscay (Bizkaia) is also pretty unknown in the Netherlands. I think most people don't even know it refers to something in Spain because it is usually used in connection to France.


A-8-137 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-8-139 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-8-144 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-8-147 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-8-149 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-8-151 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-8-152 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-8-155 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Highway89

^^ If you ever decide to visit Cantabria again, you shouldn't miss some spectacular mountain passes such as Estacas de Trueba, Collados del Asón, Las Alisas, La Sía, Lunada or Matanela. Eastern Cantabria has some of the most beautiful mountain passes in Spain IMO.

This is an example: https://goo.gl/maps/yYSW7f3QUyQ2


Collados del Asón by Javier Nistal, en Flickr


Lunada by Antonio Ruiz, en Flickr


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## pai nosso

Highway89 said:


> ^^ If you ever decide to visit Cantabria again, you shouldn't miss some spectacular mountain passes such as Estacas de Trueba, Collados del Asón, Las Alisas, La Sía, Lunada or Matanela. Eastern Cantabria has some of the most beautiful mountain passes in Spain IMO.


Good to know!!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've been following the Fomento press releases for a long time now.

It seems to me that the press releases are becoming increasingly politicized since Ábalos took office. They used to be factual reporting about projects, policy, funding announcements, opening ceremonies, etc. They are increasingly political discourse. 

I don't think official institutions should be used as a personal broadcasting machine. That's what the party website, parliamentary debates and media reporting are for. 

Though Spain is not alone in this. You should read Australian press releases :nuts:


----------



## adevahi

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've been following the Fomento press releases for a long time now.
> 
> It seems to me that the press releases are becoming increasingly politicized since Ábalos took office. They used to be factual reporting about projects, policy, funding announcements, opening ceremonies, etc. They are increasingly political discourse.
> 
> I don't think official institutions should be used as a personal broadcasting machine. That's what the party website, parliamentary debates and media reporting are for.
> 
> Though Spain is not alone in this. You should read Australian press releases :nuts:


I could answer to you and explain few things about the government of Spain now, but politics are banned in the forum... what a pitty.
Anyway, I don't think this government will take longer than half a year more.


----------



## verreme

adevahi said:


> I could answer to you and explain few things about the government of Spain now, but politics are banned in the forum... what a pitty.
> Anyway, I don't think this government will take longer than half a year more.


Pity? We're lucky politics are not allowed in this thread. Have you seen the Balkan threads?

In this thread there are people with _very_ different points of view on the current situation of Spain that talk on a friendly manner because politics are not allowed. This would become a constant catfight if we started talking about some sensitive issues everyone knows but no one mentions. There are plenty of places to talk about politics. And as far as Spain is concerned, our road construction machinery has managed to detach itself from the daily debates that take place in our parliaments. So there's no need to bring them out either.

About Fomento press releases: the current government won't be in office for very long before the next elections, maybe just a few months, so they want to publicize their work as much as they can because they'll not be able to do much. To me it makes sense (in the wicked, sometimes absurd ways politics work).


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## ChrisZwolle

They should open a new motorway, it works better than trashing your opponent in a press release


----------



## verreme

^^ I honestly don't think they will have time to open many motorway kilometers before the elections.


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## adevahi

verreme said:


> Pity? We're lucky politics are not allowed in this thread. Have you seen the Balkan threads?
> 
> In this thread there are people with _very_ different points of view on the current situation of Spain that talk on a friendly manner because politics are not allowed. This would become a constant catfight if we started talking about some sensitive issues everyone knows but no one mentions. There are plenty of places to talk about politics. And as far as Spain is concerned, our road construction machinery has managed to detach itself from the daily debates that take place in our parliaments. So there's no need to bring them out either.


Never entered in Balkans threads until date. Anyway, I totally agree with you than it's better if this discussions don't take place in the forum. My previous wish was just an utopical desire were I could express myself without somebody else reproaching me later :lol:.



ChrisZwolle said:


> They should open a new motorway, it works better than trashing your opponent in a press release


It will not happen now in Andalousia (elections 2nd of december, with some chances of repeating them in May of 2019 because of impossibility to create a new government), and it will not happen between March and 26th May because as "verreme" suggested, there will be local elections in every municipality, regional elections for most regions, insular elections for islands...

Moreover, IMO there are some chances of having elections in Catalonia (yes, one more time) in 2019.


----------



## CNGL

Two sections of A-23 are expected to open until March . But then there's nothing more U/C, the remaining two and a half sections are still in paperwork.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some sections of A-11 could open in early 2019, according to reports.


----------



## Highway89

The *LR-124*/*A-124* is a road that links Logroño and Haro along the northern shore of the river Ebro. IIRC, it was once numbered as *N-124* and, more recently, *N-232a*, as it's parallel to the *N-232* but on the other side of the river.

1. Leaving Logroño and entering Álava.









2. In the background the Sierra de Toloño, aka Sierra de Cantabria (not in the namesake region). Those limestone mountains reach about 1,450 m, 900 m higher than us (and ~1,000 m higher than the river Ebro in a distance of about 10km)









3.









4. Approaching the beautiful town of Laguardia, capital of the Rioja Alavesa _cuadrilla_.









5. A beautiful straight









6. 









7. Can you see, on the right, climbing up the mountain,the *A-2124*? That's the Herrera mountain pass, where the big antenna is.









8. The route via *A-2124* is 20 km shorter, but you have to cross the mountains. It's one of the most fun drives in the area, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GeESBbxlxg









9. Back in the Autonomous Community of La Rioja.









10. The Toloño peak in the background as we approach the town of Ábalos (that's the name of the town, seriously).









11.









12. Entering Rioja Alavesa again (Autonomous Community of the Basque Country, province of Álava). Also, a red kilometerpost which should be orange.









13.










14. We enter La Rioja for the last time









15. The end of the road at the junction with the *N-124*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The concession of AP-41 (Madrid - Toledo) will be taken over by the government in early 2019. It's the only remaining radial toll road of Madrid that is not yet taken over by the government after a succession of bankruptcies.

>> https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/jue-22112018-1636


----------



## CNGL

Highway89 said:


> The *LR-124*/*A-124* is a road that links Logroño and Haro along the northern shore of the river Ebro. IIRC, it was once numbered as *N-124* and, more recently, *N-232a*, as it's parallel to the *N-232* but on the other side of the river.


This section has never been N-124. It was always N-232, which confusingly was also applied to its current alignment (which originally was C-122 up to Gimileo and then C-120, but were renumbered in the 50s).

Also, this cannot be A-124, as it is a road in Aragon running from Zuera to Erla. Or can it be? Anyway, it has been a full decade since I went on A-231 but I was on A-231 back in March. And I haven't contradicted myself.


Highway89 said:


> 10. The Toloño peak in the background as we approach the town of Ábalos (that's the name of the town, seriously).


I like to make fun of towns that also are surnames of famous people, especially politicians. The most prominent until not too long ago was Soria. 


Highway89 said:


> 12. Entering Rioja Alavesa again (Autonomous Community of the Basque Country, province of Álava). Also, a red kilometerpost which should be orange.


It seems Alava has gone the Catalan way, signing a "orange" road as a national one. Also, it seems kmposts on (Alava's) A-124 go opposite those of LR-124, and that can be very confusing given the road weaves between Rioja and Alava.


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> The concession of AP-41 (Madrid - Toledo) will be taken over by the government in early 2019. It's the only remaining radial toll road of Madrid that is not yet taken over by the government after a succession of bankruptcies.
> 
> >> https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/jue-22112018-1636


Are they still collecting tolls on all those roads taken by the government in the recent years? Some of them had very low AADT, because of those tolls. Did it change?


----------



## OriK

^^ yes although they are planning to decrease the prices.


----------



## Highway89

CNGL said:


> This section has never been N-124. It was always N-232, which confusingly was also applied to its current alignment (which originally was C-122 up to Gimileo and then C-120, but were renumbered in the 50s).


Oh, I though that it was the original N-124 before the current one.



CNGL said:


> It seems Alava has gone the Catalan way, signing a "orange" road as a national one. Also, it seems kmposts on (Alava's) A-124 go opposite those of LR-124, and that can be very confusing given the road weaves between Rioja and Alava.



Nah, it's just that specific kilometer post that is red. It seems to me that someone at the traffic sign company messed up and chose the wrong colour.

Indeed, the km 0 of the A-124 is in Vitoria, while the one of the LR-124 is in Logroño, so in each province the "kilometrage" grows in opposite directions.




geogregor said:


> Are they still collecting tolls on all those roads taken by the government in the recent years? Some of them had very low AADT, because of those tolls. Did it change?





OriK said:


> ^^ yes although they are planning to decrease the prices.



Yep, here's a piece of news about that: https://translate.google.es/transla...iales-para-fomentar-su-uso&edit-text=&act=url




BTW, the new toll booths of the AP-68 at the junction with the soon-to-be-toll-free AP-1 are almost ready.



alsama said:


> Hoy


----------



## verreme

Speaking about tolls, this government wants to introduce some kind of road charging for toll-free _autovías_:

https://www.europapress.es/economia...-uso-autovias-legislatura-20181113105252.html

How and when they are going to do it is unclear, especially given the political climate, but minister Ábalos cites a "wide majority" in the parliament is in favour so this so-called "new road maintenance scheme" (what a way to disguise it) so this should go ahead no matter who is in charge after the next elections.

Of course, Spanish construction/road maintenance companies are very happy about this since they're smelling lots of money in tenders to implement whatever tolling system they choose.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I find it hard to believe they want to introduce tolls on autovías given how wildly unpopular toll roads are in Spain. No political party is going to gain votes with such a proposal. 

There are a couple of ways to raise funding:
* introduce or raise taxes on car sales / car ownership
* raise the fuel tax
* introduce a vignette
* introduce tolls (similar to Portugal's former SCUT tolls)

It should be noted though, that the need for new autovía construction in Spain is diminishing, changing expenditures to maintenance instead of greenfield projects. Spanish road spending is in fact not that high, the cost of capital projects is generally low. 

I don't see how they would need to dramatically increase spending on roads while the amount of new autovía construction is going down. Maintenance costs are much lower than new construction, and Spain is still far from a maintenance cycle where they need to completely replace bridges on a large scale like in Germany, which is obviously more expensive than just resurfacing the autovías.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-2 Catalunya*

A 2.75 km section of A-2 has opened to traffic today between Maçanet de la Selva and Sils.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1066284579865153536

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1066276846436851712
I assume this does not yet include the A-2 / C-35 interchange? 

A news report also says;
* Tordera - Maçanet will be put to tender in December or January
* Vilademuls - Orriols will open in April 2019
* N-II twinning to La Jonquera is still a priority
* A-26 construction between Besalú and Cabanelles is a priority
* they plan a N-260 bypass of Olot

>> https://www.aldia.cat/catalunya/ter...desdoblament-fins-tordera-20181124121221.html


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## Suburbanist

What about a truck-only toll system with electronic vignettes/plate recognition?


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> I assume this does not yet include the A-2 / C-35 interchange?


Yes it does. However the new stretch terminates at the interchange so there's no change for through traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The interchange works were awarded 2 years after the main A-2 works, so I assumed it wouldn't be completed. Google Earth shows there is construction south of C-35 as well, that is still ongoing?


----------



## Highway89

Suburbanist said:


> What about a truck-only toll system with electronic vignettes/plate recognition?


It could be a start, but truck drivers are already quite upset.

The main problem for implementing a toll on motorways in Spain is that the alternatives, i.e. national roads, are generally quite good. Therefore, if you introduce a "Portuguese style" toll on motorways, many people would say "OK, I'll just take the national road like I used to do 10-15 years ago". And there are some first-generation autovías which haven't been refurbished yet and sometimes have no alternative, as the previous national road was used for one of the carriageways. I'm doubtful that any government can ask for a direct toll on those substandard autovías. And of course, Spanish autovías have plenty of exits. The cost of putting gantries with cameras for plate recognition would be quite high.

On the other hand, a vignette wouldn't be fair for people of places where tolled motorways are basically the only alternative, as they'd have to pay both the vignette and the tolls. An option would be a vignette for the whole of the "Red de Carreteras del Estado", including national roads, and an implementation of discount programs for certain tolled motorways.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> The interchange works were awarded 2 years after the main A-2 works, so I assumed it wouldn't be completed. Google Earth shows there is construction south of C-35 as well, that is still ongoing?


Construction on the section inmediately south of the C-35 interchange started more than 10 years ago and is stopped since at least 2008 after some earthworks and structures had been done. I guess this is the stretch minister Ábalos says is going to be tendered soon (Tordera-Maçanet). However the municipality of Tordera is huge so this stretch will very likely not reach C-32. I guess it'll just be these 3 or 4 km where works started more than a decade ago.

South of there, Fomento improved the existing road recently by building two new grade-separated intersections and re-aligning the road. Previous ministers said that they wanted the Catalan regional Government to undertake construction of the stretch between Tordera and C-32 -which seems unlikely given that environmentalists have opposed any new road in the area, and have actually managed to stop the extension of C-32 towards Lloret (not for very long though, since it will go ahead when they redo the bureaucracy).

It's a pity since the Alt Maresme region, with a population that may quadruple in summer, lacks a connection with AP-7 and thus a gateway to the north (where most tourists come from). There's a lot of heavy traffic, too, and even more now with the new Inditex logistic center in Tordera.


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## ChrisZwolle

Fomento made a nice video detailing the new section of A-2:






It shows they haven't done much to the A-2 / C-35 interchange, there are no four lanes through the interchange.


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## arctic_carlos

The A2 - C35 interchange is part of another project. Construction started later, and they haven’t advanced much. The most significant improvement will be eliminating the 270° ramp to access A2 northbound coming from AP7 (they know that many people will leave AP7 in Maçanet to continue towards Girona via toll-free A2).


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## Highway89

According to some media, Fomento will refurbish the A-1/AP-1 junction at Armiñón: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.7249391,-2.8663299,1430m/data=!3m1!1e3

Currently, traffic from/to AP-1 has only one lane, while the main trunk continues to the N-1. As the AP-1 will become toll free, it's clear that most traffic will prefer the AP-1, so that only lane will become saturated.


----------



## adevahi

From Spanish forum of SE-40:



EuroBetis said:


> Hoy han comenzado a poner las vigas que faltaban para completar el tablero en la salida de Dos Hermanas.
> 
> Y aparte, en la zona del tren también han comenzado a colocar grúas
> 
> Parece que esta semana se cierra el circulo señores


Translation: "Today (it means, _yesterday_) the last beams of SE-40 over Avenida de las Universidades, were being placed.

Moreover, near the future bridge over the railway there were cranes being installed.

It seems like in this week all structural works will be finished".

He is talking about this and this locations. If all the beams can be placed soon (that is, if there are no rains in the following days), SE-40 section from A-376 to A-4 south, will finally be finished by begginings of 2019, and finally, SE-40 will be a useful highway for a lot of traffic (it will be possible to do the trip Madrid-Cádiz, Córdoba-Cádiz, Antequera-Cádiz etc without using SE-30). Less congestions for the main ringroad of Sevilla city.


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## ChrisZwolle

*FV-1 Fuerteventura*

FV-1 on Fuerteventura. This autovía opened in 2017.


----------



## ajch

Spanish Ministry of Public Works (Ministerio de Fomento) has published the yearbook of 2017 (partial). Chapter 7 is for the road network (Capitulo 7: carreteras)

https://www.fomento.gob.es/el-ministerio/informacion-estadistica/anuario-estadisticas-de-sintesis-y-boletin/anuario-estadistico/capitulos-2017

At 31 December 2017 the lenght of Spanish network is:

3.039 kms of tolled motorways (autopistas de peaje)
12.484 kms of expressways (autovias)
1.640 kms of multilane roads (carreteras multicarril)

For international comparisons the lenght of motorways is 15.523 kms (tolled motorways + expressways).

In the year 2017 79 kms were added to the network.


----------



## Highway89

Highway89 said:


> Some photos of the *LR-250*, in La Rioja.


And now some pictures of its sister road, the *LR-261*, which follows the Jubera valley. These were taken from south to north, i.e. from lower AADT / worse quality to higher AADT / better quality.

1. This is the end of the paved road, somewhere between the abandoned villages of Antoñanzas and Oliván. New gravel roads were built in order to allow access to wind turbines, so you can drive to Munilla, in the opposite valley.









2. Driving north/downstream









3. Official start/end of the road, right at the junction with the LR-476 to San Vicente de Robres









4. Robres del Castillo. And a Citroën C-15, of course.









5.









6.









7. The castle of Jubera









8.









9.









10.









11. Ventas Blancas









12.









13. The _Sierra de Codés_ in the distance









14. Near Murillo de Río Leza. A bypass for this town is being built: https://www.larioja.org/carreteras/...iones/variante-murllio-rio-leza-lr-259-lr-261









15. Arriving in Murillo de Río Leza, where both rivers Leza and Jubera meet.









16. Then we took the *LR-259*









17.









18.









19. We join the *LR-250* near Villamediana de Iregua for a few meters.









20. The *LR-255* follows the eastern side of the river Iregua, parallel to the *N-111*









21. In Alberite we took the *LR-254*









22. Crossing the river Iregua









23. Entering Lardero









24. And then we took the *N-111a* to Logroño









25. Bonus: Another picture of the *LR-261*, this time going southbound










More pictures: https://imgur.com/a/p4n4TQg


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## ChrisZwolle

Nice scenery. Does La Rioja get a lot of foreign tourists? I've never heard anyone saying they're going on vacation to La Rioja.


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## Highway89

^^ The total number of foreign tourists was ~140k in 2017. Considering that Spain as a whole received >82 million foreign tourists, that's less than 0.2%.

Wine tourism in La Rioja is somehow popular among British people. There's a ferry connection between England and Bilbao, which isn't far from here, so sometimes you even see British license plates. That, and the Way of St. James (if it counts as tourism), are the main sources of foreign visitors. Sometimes you see campers form France, Italy, the Netherlands or Belgium.


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## ChrisZwolle

There are only 7 campsites in La Rioja.

Most tourists of course go to the beaches or the historic cities. But I find the rural landscapes very attractive in Spain, long lonely drives through scenic areas. It's interesting though, that I've always seen one or two other Dutch people on campsites in the interior of Spain, even on campsites that aren't listed by ACSI or ANWB. Once, I was on a campsite near Viver in Castellón province in June 2017. There were only two guests: me and another Dutch couple.

Over the last few years I've visited several parts of the interior of Spain: the provinces of Huesca, Lleida, Teruel, Castellón, Ávila, Salamanca, Navarra, inland Cantabria. Not counting the many provinces I've traveled through. 

Car magazines also like to do car reviews and tests in Spain: quiet, scenic roads. Almost every second new car review of the Dutch Autoweek magazine seems to be in Spain (most near Barcelona though). I've recently read an article about the Autozine magazine going on a road trip to Navarra with a Porsche. They raved about the great roads and scenery, yet this area is so unknown to the masses.


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## alserrod

In those areas it is more common to go to countryhouses instead of camping.

Inner campings are only near historical cities or in high mountains.

But if you look for into specific rental houses for holidays, even for a weekend, these areas are plenty of them


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## Highway89

I remember when one of the times I climbed up the Cruz de la Demanda I came across a car (not a camper/caravan) with Dutch plates. Dutch people are everywhere 

The interior of Spain is almost unknown to the foreign public, but not so much for Spanish drivers. I follow several Spanish MotoVlogs and even people from Barcelona, Valencia or Bilbao take most road trips around the interior. Every weekend bikers from Madrid invade Gredos or the Cuenca mountains.

Indeed, many car adverts are filmed in Spain. Someone posted the new Porsche ad in the Spanish forum. It was almost completely filmed in Madrid region, except for the last bridge which is La Serena reservoir in Extremadura:



Patinir said:


> El anuncio oficial del nuevo Porsche 911 (992) está rodado en Madrid, se ven varios edificios reconocibles.


I think it's because Spain (and Portugal) has a very distinctive landscape, where you can find rough/dry areas, sometimes even resembling the Western US. Also, in some areas the landscape changes a lot in just a few km, so you can e.g. take a picture of a car in a dense beech forest, drive for half an hour and then take a picture of the same car in the middle of a desert-like landscape.


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## General Maximus

This makes Spain one of the most beautiful and varied countries in Europe! 

Always happy to be there, and even partly live there. It has many advantages as well, my own private car has Spanish plates. Very cheap to keep. Within three months I'm moving there permanently.


----------



## alserrod

General Maximus said:


> This makes Spain one of the most beautiful and varied countries in Europe!
> 
> Always happy to be there, and even partly live there. It has many advantages as well, my own private car has Spanish plates. Very cheap to keep. Within three months I'm moving there permanently.


Along all Spain or to any specific city?


As said.. inner Spain is barely unknown out of Spain. Maybe main heritage cities, but barely more.... and as you can see, except in Meseta, you will find mountains (higher or not so great peaks but mountainscape) in all Spain within no more than 100 km.

As an example... not spam, just top webpage for these kind of accomodation is called Toprural (hence, guess webpage, they have some out of Spain in the web but barely). It is not like booking or so... it is only for ads about houses. You may call or write owner and deal how to book (once I had ... to send reservation fee via post office, only time in life has sent money by post!!!! but owner was over 70 years old!!)
They must be registered as touristic house (and up to 12 people, over 12 is considered a hotel) and pay taxes as that.

As an example, if you enter in that page, just try to find for a house. Only in La Rioja you have 112 houses to hire for a week in holidays, for a weekend out of season, and so on...

Problem... they have only national tourism


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## General Maximus

Officially I'm registered in Pineda de Mar (Barcelona), which is also where my car is registered. My favourite place, however, to reside is in the Almeria region. I do prefer to live by the sea. But for work driving a van I'm all over Spain, and I enjoy as much being in Madrid, Toledo, Valladolid, Burgos, the Basque Region, Lanzarote (where I was last week) and all the varied landscapes. 

I'm not that much in favour of being anywhere where mass tourism is, but the Vera area in Almeria is somewhere in between....


----------



## alserrod

Lucky for you to be able to drive so much...

Guess that for Lanzarote you took a plane to Arrecife and hired a car. Obviously stunning landscapes. IMHO each island in Canaries has something special and Lanzarote is known after their urbanism (they had a local architech who set an island programs quite strict but respected till today, You would have seen his name just as soon as you landed in the airport).


If you must drive anywhere and ask for several options we can help you or even point a Spanish thread specific for this topic, also if you have a weekend and wanna make tourism or you have time for coming back home and doesn't matter taking a different road instead motorway and discovering something.


----------



## General Maximus

^^ Indeed. This the car I hired. And the landscapes and architecture are absolutely stunning. Big difference to Pineda de Mar...












Thank you for the offer! I'd like that very much!


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## alserrod

OK... you hired with CICAR (they write randomly the name of an island in each car!!!!)

Everytime I have gone there have hired with cicar, they only operate within islands but have offices in the most unknown corners
(btw, for next time, it could be the best company in insurances in Canaries, they do not have extra charges or fees and I guess it is the only company allows you to move within islands providing you return to previous one. This is, with Cicar, and I guess only with cicar, you are entitled to go to Fuerteventura by ferry and cross all the island if you have time but must return to Lanzarote. With other companies must leave car in harbour and hire another one after ship)


----------



## General Maximus

We did think about taking the ferry to Fuerteventura, but stayed on the island instead, and went to all corners, visited several beaches and generally had a nice and relaxing time. Our hotel was in Puerto del Carmen, not far from the airport.

This is my own car by the way, up on a mountain in Tirol, Austria. I've got it parked in Holland at the moment, because I normally drive a van, but I need to go to Spain in it soon for my ITV...


----------



## alserrod

Last time I was in Lanzarote, was in a Puerto del Carmen hotel too. Remember arrived too late and asked for a taxi instead of hiring a car. About 12 euro (providing it is more expensive because night and because leaving airport).

If you wanna go to Fuerteventura, there are two companies and offer one ship every hour among both. Providing you are not in peak season, no problem to have place but online is a bit cheaper. 
Later return from FV at 19:00

If you wanna know island I can point you a based-driven route with 3-4 calls only (full day), have relatives in that island and I guess there are no routes in the island I haven't ever been


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## alserrod

For ITV controls...

- first one is 4 years after car bought
- up to 10 years every 2 years
- later, every year

- when going to a control, they will say nothing if ITV card is expired, they will just check again, but enough police checks it is expired (and nowadays it is quite easy with cameras and so on, or even someone crash you and they ask documentation to both), fine is the same one day expired, all life expired

controls are the same anywhere in Spain (and prices can be different in each region, not big differences, but...)
in case you have something to repair (enough a light off), second check is for free within one month IN THE SAME control station


----------



## General Maximus

Mine is older than 10 years, so it'll have to go in every year. I've been told that if I don't bring it in in time, I'll automatically be subjected to a 200€ fine. 

Last time the vehicle was actually in Spain, was in July, by the way. I normally go all over Europe in a van...


----------



## General Maximus

alserrod said:


> Last time I was in Lanzarote, was in a Puerto del Carmen hotel too. Remember arrived too late and asked for a taxi instead of hiring a car. About 12 euro (providing it is more expensive because night and because leaving airport).
> 
> If you wanna go to Fuerteventura, there are two companies and offer one ship every hour among both. Providing you are not in peak season, no problem to have place but online is a bit cheaper.
> Later return from FV at 19:00
> 
> If you wanna know island I can point you a based-driven route with 3-4 calls only (full day), have relatives in that island and I guess there are no routes in the island I haven't ever been


That's good to know. I'm planning to go again in January.


----------



## MichiH

Talking about island roads. Any news on this:



MichiH said:


> *A23:* north of Caldearenas – Alto de Monrepos 5km (< 2009 to Late 2018) – ? – map
> *FV1:* Corralejo – Lajares 6km (? to Late 2018) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
> *GC3:* Arucas (GC2) – Arucas 2km (2007 to Late 2018) – ? – map


Is there any estimation when the roads / carriageways might be opened? Still expected to be opened in 2018?


----------



## alserrod

General Maximus said:


> Mine is older than 10 years, so it'll have to go in every year. I've been told that if I don't bring it in in time, I'll automatically be subjected to a 200€ fine.
> 
> Last time the vehicle was actually in Spain, was in July, by the way. I normally go all over Europe in a van...



It is true... and a new "problem" is that any camera can send data about cars crossing any point. They are worried about having insurance and ITV check. They can warn police if you do not have them.

If you are catched with ITV expired, 200 euro fine, 100 if you pay without discussion within 15 days (or even in the moment) and you will have some days to go to ITV control.





MichiH said:


> Talking about island roads. Any news on this:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any estimation when the roads / carriageways might be opened? Still expected to be opened in 2018?



FV1 was u/c last summer but do not know how much they would have enlarged them


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*SE-40 Sevilla*

I found these photos of SE-40 on Twitter. They are taken on the new stretch south of A-49.


----------



## pai nosso

^^
Does the road authoraties tkink that they are going to have just a high volume of traffic that justifies 3 lanes??


----------



## Little

pai nosso said:


> ^^
> Does the road authoraties tkink that they are going to have just a high volume of traffic that justifies 3 lanes??


When the complete bypass is finished, it will carry enough traffic for three lanes.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Guadalquivir crossing is still missing (and will be for years...) so it only carries traffic to two exits on the periphery of Sevilla for now. 

I think it was also designed with a very large expansion of suburbs around Sevilla in mind. 

It makes you wonder though, if a downscaled 2-tube / 4 lane tunnel under the Guadalquivir will be sufficient for a long time, instead of the all-out 4 tube / 8 lane tunnel that was planned.


----------



## adevahi

After the tunnels will be done, yes, sure. Before doing the tunnels, totally not.
Even if the government decides to build the sections from A-49 to the north, the traffic of SE-40 in Aljarafe will not be high enough for the three lanes, as it hasn't been in the two sections opened in 2011 and 2013. However, with this two sections, AADT will increase so much after the opening of section between A-376 and A-4... will be in two-three months, I hope!!!
And, one more time, the tunnels... *we need the tunnels*. They will increase also the AADT of the two sections opened in 2011 and 2013.

For clarifying (green and black are opened, photos posted by ChrisZwolle were taken in the black section, in red the tunnels, dotted black will open in 2019, I hope it will be in February or March, dotted red is not even under construction):


----------



## TM_Germany

ChrisZwolle said:


> I found these photos of SE-40 on Twitter. They are taken on the new stretch south of A-49.


I always wondered about these big concrete ditches in Spain. When I was there, they seemed extremely common. What's the point of them exactly? You can have just an earthen ditch that collects the water and instantly lets it seep into the ground. Is it so that it gets collected and then sent to a water treatment plant somewhere else, so that the ground isn't "contaminated"? I was travelling with my father at that time (who is abit of a cynic sometimes) and he just said "looks like a councilperson owns a cement factory" :lol:

Does somebody know the reasoning behind that design?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Interesting observation, there are often concrete ditches on the outside as well. 

There don't seem to be any retention ponds along this stretch of SE-40, according to recent Google Earth imagery.


----------



## Little

TM_Germany said:


> I always wondered about these big concrete ditches in Spain. When I was there, they seemed extremely common. What's the point of them exactly? You can have just an earthen ditch that collects the water and instantly lets it seep into the ground. Is it so that it gets collected and then sent to a water treatment plant somewhere else, so that the ground isn't "contaminated"? I was travelling with my father at that time (who is abit of a cynic sometimes) and he just said "looks like a councilperson owns a cement factory"
> 
> Does somebody know the reasoning behind that design?


The point is to keep the water outside the base of the road. And the design codes tends to make bigger the concrete ditches in the area between the roads. 
SUDS are practically unknown in Spain, specially in roads. On some roads they made a type of drained ditches by chance to avoid the "hole" of the ditch in order to improve the security of a vehicle which might have lost control. Instead of using a security barrier, they fill the ditch with gravel.


----------



## adevahi

Floor in the area of Sevilla is mostly clay, and this clays take new shapes everytime that their humidity conditions change, and one of the most commons kind of clays here is "margas azules", which can take new shapes affecting to the road - even if you replace some meters around the surface with another kind of terrain - by pushing.
You can't just make a SUDS in Sevilla, it will be terribly expensive as you would need to remove all the terrain for so much meters.
If you want to know more, just drive through A-66 between Santiponce and Monesterio, it's more likely to be a rollescoaster than a road, even if the government is always spending money trying to repair it.


----------



## adevahi

By the way, the water is sent directly to rivers without treatment.


----------



## pai nosso

Little said:


> When the complete bypass is finished, it will carry enough traffic for three lanes.





ChrisZwolle said:


> The Guadalquivir crossing is still missing (and will be for years...) so it only carries traffic to two exits on the periphery of Sevilla for now.
> 
> I think it was also designed with a very large expansion of suburbs around Sevilla in mind.
> 
> It makes you wonder though, if a downscaled 2-tube / 4 lane tunnel under the Guadalquivir will be sufficient for a long time, instead of the all-out 4 tube / 8 lane tunnel that was planned.





adevahi said:


> After the tunnels will be done, yes, sure. Before doing the tunnels, totally not.
> Even if the government decides to build the sections from A-49 to the north, the traffic of SE-40 in Aljarafe will not be high enough for the three lanes, as it hasn't been in the two sections opened in 2011 and 2013. However, with this two sections, AADT will increase so much after the opening of section between A-376 and A-4... will be in two-three months, I hope!!!
> And, one more time, the tunnels... *we need the tunnels*. They will increase also the AADT of the two sections opened in 2011 and 2013.
> 
> For clarifying (green and black are opened, photos posted by ChrisZwolle were taken in the black section, in red the tunnels, dotted black will open in 2019, I hope it will be in February or March, dotted red is not even under construction):



Thank you for the answers everyone.


----------



## Eulanthe

verreme said:


> ^^ I wonder if it's the same on other untolled "AP"s. For example, AP-4 between Cádiz and Jerez, AP-7 (Málaga-Fuengirola) or AP-9 in Vigo.


I don't know for certain, but I think AP-7 between Malaga and Fuengirola is part of the concession, as well as the Marbella and Estapona bypasses. The toll is always listed as Malaga-Marbella, not Fuengirola-Marbella, and it's Autopista del Sol, not Autovia (as the old N-340 was). If you look on the Autopista del Sol page, it seems clear that there are tolled sections that aren't paid at the point of use. 

Personally, I don't like the way that the AP-7 was designed there. The tolls are just so high on most sections (with the exception of the final Manilva Troncal toll) that it's not worth using, even during busy times. The most ridiculous is the 7.50 special toll between Fuengirola and Marbella, which is only 28km. 

What would make the most sense there would be for the AP-7 tolls to be transformed into variable pricing for cars to encourage traffic to use it. I used it once last April and it was completely empty at 7pm in the evening, while the A-7 was jammed.


----------



## Stuu

TM_Germany said:


> Does somebody know the reasoning behind that design?


Isn't it that in southern Spain rainfall tends to be very heavy but not very often, so the ditches have to be heavy duty to cope? Compared with more steady rainfall that we 'enjoy' further north?


----------



## adevahi

^^
True, that can also affects, but that happens mostly on eastern Spain instead southern Spain.


----------



## Highway89

According to what I've read in the _5.2-IC Drenaje superficial_, concrete ditches (_cuneta revestida_ in Spanish) must be used as a general rule, unless it's justified in the project.




















Narrow medians (_mediana estricta_):










Also on the outside when the terrain is higher:










Example: https://www.google.es/maps/@41.6708...4!1swa-R_L3p11jTYnEhCK74fw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Source: The first link in https://www.fomento.gob.es/carreteras/normativa-tecnica/07-drenaje








Anyway, Fomento has approved the project of a new stretch of the *VA-30* west of Valladolid, it's almost a bypass of the current A-60/N-601:










Source: https://www.elnortedecastilla.es/valladolid/ministerio-fomento-aprueba-20181212212903-nt.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ the VA-30 extension seems pretty unnecessary for now. The travel time saving is only minimal and the amount of traffic using it would be very low.

There are currently only 11,800 vehicles per day on A-60 near Vilanubla. I think it's safe to say that most of that traffic has an origin or destination in Valladolid, say 70-80%. That would mean only 2,400 - 3,500 vehicles would use the VA-30 bypass - and that is a scenario where all non-Valladolid traffic would travel to the south (A-62) or east (A-11) and not north (A-62). 

I think it's sufficient to preserve a right-of-way for a future VA-30, which could be constructed once traffic volumes justify it.


----------



## Little

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ the VA-30 extension seems pretty unnecessary for now. The travel time saving is only minimal and the amount of traffic using it would be very low.
> 
> There are currently only 11,800 vehicles per day on A-60 near Vilanubla. I think it's safe to say that most of that traffic has an origin or destination in Valladolid, say 70-80%. That would mean only 2,400 - 3,500 vehicles would use the VA-30 bypass - and that is a scenario where all non-Valladolid traffic would travel to the south (A-62) or east (A-11) and not north (A-62).
> 
> I think it's sufficient to preserve a right-of-way for a future VA-30, which could be constructed once traffic volumes justify it.


There are other things that justify this bypass. Nowadays you need to cross 3 km of an urban road to go from A62 to A60. There are even 3 traffic lights.
It might include the remodeling of the current junction between A62 y VA20, which is one of the more dangerous in Spain.
Although you might be right with the numbers of traffic, I think this bypass would get 2500 vehicles from A62, which would be better without this traffic. Those cars usually travel very slow, because people expect the distance between the two junctions too short to get the common speed on the road at this moment.


----------



## alserrod

wouldn't be more interesting to enlarge A-60 instead of VA-30?


----------



## Little

It's the same, you can see it on the other way.

You are following the regional thread about it and you can see there a graphic about this bypass.

I post the link to the thread for others.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...share_tid=119674&share_fid=68605&share_type=t


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Arco Noroeste de Murcia*

Fomento has approved the awarding of 3 contracts totaling € 178.4 million for the construction of the 21.7 kilometer long "Arco Noroeste", which forms the northwestern beltway of Murcia.

>> https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/vie-14122018-1413

It's interesting that the contracted value is almost exactly the same as a cost estimate in 2015: the difference is only € 0.5 million on a € 178 million project. This as opposed to many projects in Western Europe where cost escalations of 20-50% during planning are not uncommon. 

A map of the planned motorways around Murcia, including the Arco Noroeste. No road number has been announced yet. It is a continuation of MU-30 but can also be seen as a rerouting of A-30.


----------



## Highway89

There must be some kind of agreement between La Rioja and Navarra so that the latter can sign it as NA-134 and take charge of its maintenance.


The LR-412 crosses the province of Burgos and there are no signs about it: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4164...4!1snyuOZZJV_8twRv577mNv-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Same with the A-2124 entering La Rioja for a few meters: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.5936877,-2.6802341,17.25z

I'm sure there are plenty of cases like this.


----------



## CNGL

It's indeed NA-134, it was signed as such when I drove that road in 2015 (Nowadays I'd take N-232 in Rioja instead). It's a section along the Ebro river where both banks belong to Rioja. Since it doesn't connect to any other Riojan roads it makes more sense for it to be NA-134 instead of LR-131. Only the short section near Logroño is signed LR-131 (and why not LR-134? Because that is assigned to another road which runs on a collision course with NA-134, fortunately the regional border stops it from doing so).

As for unsigned regional borders, I can think of N-113 which runs for about half a kilometer in Aragon (it's even recognized in the log as such) without any sign.


----------



## alserrod

In the case of N-113, you can see here how it reach Valverde

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.977...aps/@41.9773795,-1.8632195,686m/data=!3m1!1e3

and crosses Aragon for about 500ish metres. This time Google is more or less accurate. You can see a former railway station that was partially in Aragon, partially in La Rioja.

The majority of population live in the Riojan side, but some of them in the Aragonese. It is a "shared" village, belonging to two regions. Almost all services come from Riojan side and Aragonese municipality just pay some issues yearly (maybe the only service they have from Aragon..... is the priest 'cos the municipality they belong has cathedral and is major city for Church in that area)


A little far away in the North, Google remains accurate

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.007...4!1sfncfujARZ_cUpXmgBg84oQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

N-113 crosses for 50 metres (or less) Aragon region. They just point you have shifted from La Rioja to Navarra but in the image you can see, there's a stone pointing "provincia de Zaragoza". This is, that little area belongs to Zaragoza province (Aragon region). It is the tripoint and located just away from road.

Maybe to avoid so many signs they forget to point Aragon, but in the case of Valverde they should (in case anyone lives in that area, pay taxes to different region and driving 50 is not a problem for an extra sign)


----------



## alserrod

More...

AP-68

From THIS point to Ebro river (where Basque country is signed ahead in the picture), territory belongs to Castilla y Leon. Small strech and not pointed

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.637...4!1sROzqIEBv8MecpROOssTNZQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Minister of Fomento, Ábalos, made some announcements for Castilla-La Mancha.

>> https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/mie-09012019-0951

Project studies are underway for A-40 Ávila - Maqueda and A-40 Cuenca - Teruel. Toledo - Ocaña is not mentioned, but he stated:

_o los tramos de la A-40 entre Ávila-Maqueda; y Toledo-Ávila, entre otras._

Those are the same route. Maybe he meant Toledo - Ocaña. 

In addition, there are apparently still plans for an autovía from Toledo to Ciudad Real (A-41?)

He also mentions progress on the A-32 and A-33 in Albacete province. 

The problem with the A-40 extension is the lack of traffic, in particular the Cuenca - Teruel route has extremely low traffic volumes (under 2,000 vehicles per day for the most part). I don't think an autovía can be justified here, especially since the terrain isn't super easy.


----------



## General Maximus

The toll-free AP-1 is just as quiet as it always was. The tollbooths are still there, but rusting away, and has a speed limit of 20 km/h going through. Confused Frenchmen camp within the booths waiting for a ticket to come out. All other traffic drive straight through...


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> The problem with the A-40 extension is the lack of traffic, in particular the Cuenca - Teruel route has extremely low traffic volumes (under 2,000 vehicles per day for the most part). I don't think an autovía can be justified here, especially since the terrain isn't super easy.


They're talking about "Estudios Informativos" which is the first step of planning. Construction is at least 10 years away from that. I don't think we'll ever see a complete A-40 as envisioned in the PEIT of the early 2000s. The Cuenca-Teruel motorway will mostly be deemed too expensive when this study is finished.

However, in my opinion the Toledo-Ocaña stretch should be built in order for the existing Maqueda-Toledo and Ocaña-Tarancón stretches to serve their original purpose, which was taking away east-west transit traffic from the road network of Madrid.

It's good news to see progress in A-32 and A-33 anyway. The first one will be a huge improvement in terms of road safety and travel times, and the second one will mean smooth, almost-uninterrupted 120 km/h cruising between Valencia and Murcia -a dream.


----------



## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Minister of Fomento, Ábalos, made some announcements for Castilla-La Mancha.
> 
> >> https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/mie-09012019-0951
> 
> Project studies are underway for A-40 Ávila - Maqueda and A-40 Cuenca - Teruel. Toledo - Ocaña is not mentioned, but he stated:
> 
> The problem with the A-40 extension is the lack of traffic, in particular the Cuenca - Teruel route has extremely low traffic volumes (under 2,000 vehicles per day for the most part). I don't think an autovía can be justified here, especially since the terrain isn't super easy.


If there is one obvious missing new motorway link in all of Spain it is an east west motorway south of Madrid. I was thinking of the A43 line further south via Ciudad Real to Merida though. 

Bit like the finishing the A66 finished the north south routes a few years back and also provided a north south bypass of Madrid.


----------



## alserrod

The problem in Teruel-Cuenca is Cuenca-Ademuz is cool to drive but not good to make a fast route and Ademuz-Teruel has 34 km where two national roads join and it is hard to overpass 60 km/h.

It was announced to refurbish 7 km after more than one decade waiting. Still not started and easiest to build indeed


In addition, best way to go from Teruel to Madrid is via Alcolea del Pinar, A-2. Just 100 km of road 1x1


----------



## verreme

sponge_bob said:


> If there is one obvious missing new motorway link in all of Spain it is an east west motorway south of Madrid. I was thinking of the A43 line further south via Ciudad Real to Merida though.
> 
> Bit like the finishing the A66 finished the north south routes a few years back and also provided a north south bypass of Madrid.


IIRC environmental concerns prevented A-43 to go ahead through Extremadura. The existing roads are being upgraded instead (N-430, some stretches of which have already been overhauled, is also mentioned in the press release quoted by Chris). Also, the route of A-40 is much easier; it's mostly uninterrupted plains on a vast extension of nothing.

A-40 is the only section of the "Pentagon" around Madrid envisioned by the PEIT plan that has more or less made it to construction. These "super-ringroad" of Madrid was a bit overkill though, which some stretches serving no actual purpose since there are other routes further from the capital that carry transit traffic to various "off-center" points of the Iberian Peninsula.


----------



## sponge_bob

verreme said:


> IIRC environmental concerns prevented A-43 to go ahead through Extremadura. .


Gotcha, so it has to be an A40 solution further north instead.


----------



## alserrod

south indeed. Crossing Ademuz corner via south and catching current N-330 to turn North


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Cantabria*

I was browsing on Google Earth and found this high road in Cantabria, the CA-916 to the _Mirador de la Fuente del Chivo_. It is quoted as being the highest road in Cantabria, it also appears to be substantially higher than any mountain pass in Cantabria, at around 2000 meters altitude, in fact it may be one of the highest roads in Spain not in the Pyrenees or Sierra Nevada (or Canarias). It's higher than some ski areas I visited before (Javalambre in Teruel and Béjar in Salamanca)

Another thing for my to-do list. 

Has anyone ever been here?


----------



## alserrod

It is a small ski resort (in Spain only Pyrenees and one in Andalusia there are medium-big resorts)

According to wikipedia, downer point, 1650, upper 2100m

Guess parking will be down


In Cantabric mountains you can find a mountainscape like Alps despite there's lack of altitude, the only difference is flora.


I have been in surroundings but not there, maybe because I am used to visit higher peaks a little more in the west


----------



## General Maximus

This is unusual...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are several signs like that in the Basque region. 


A-15 AP-15 Pamplona-Irurtzun-27 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-1-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## General Maximus

I only saw that one on the AP-1/AP-8 with Paris on it. There were loads with Baiona and Bordeaux...


----------



## CNGL

Notice how Navarre uses exonyms while Guipuscoa uses the endonym for Bordeaux, however since Bayonne is in the (French) Basque Country they use its Basque name, _Baiona_, and as such it appears to be signed in the wrong direction, as there is another Baiona in Galicia.

Then there is this sign along A-138, which has since been replaced and now uses Toulouse instead of the now unused exonym _Tolosa_ (which is also the name of a town in Guipuscoa).


----------



## Highway89

Weren't there signs for Perpignan on the AP-7 in Catalonia too? (Maybe the Catalan version, Perpinyà?)





ChrisZwolle said:


> I was browsing on Google Earth and found this high road in Cantabria, the CA-916 to the _Mirador de la Fuente del Chivo_. It is quoted as being the highest road in Cantabria, it also appears to be substantially higher than any mountain pass in Cantabria, at around 2000 meters altitude, in fact it may be one of the highest roads in Spain not in the Pyrenees or Sierra Nevada (or Canarias). It's higher than some ski areas I visited before (Javalambre in Teruel and Béjar in Salamanca)
> 
> Another thing for my to-do list.
> 
> Has anyone ever been here?



The stage 14 of the 2015 Vuelta a España finished there:







If you visit Fuente del Chivo, you can also try and drive the road to Golobar, an abandoned mountain shelter: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.9674...4!1sAGOm5kch4j_xrg3Cz-CJ_w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Also, around the same area, there's the road to Picón Blanco, an abandoned military station. This one has been featured in the Vuelta a Burgos. It's also very close to the Estacas de Trueba-Lunada-La Sía _trio_ I recommended a few weeks ago.

If you want to find mountain passes or high roads I recommend altimetrias.net, it's designed for cyclists but it's quite helpful as it's very thoroughly made.

The 20 highest roads would be:


> altitud *nombre*
> *3367* m *Sierra Nevada-Pico Veleta** <= SIERRA NEVADA/FILABRES/BAZA*
> *2400* m *Roque de los Muchachos <= CANARY ISLANDS*
> *2356* m *Teide** <= CANARY ISLANDS*
> *2325* m *Teide** <= CANARY ISLANDS*
> *2257* m *Navacerrada-Bola del Mundo*
> *2155* m *Calar Alto <= SIERRA NEVADA/FILABRES/BAZA*
> *2144* m *Vallter 2000 ** <= PYRENEES*
> *2078* m *Velefique-Tetica de Bacares** <= SIERRA NEVADA/FILABRES/BAZA*
> *2041* m *Ragua, La** <= SIERRA NEVADA/FILABRES/BAZA*
> *2031* m *Boí-Taüll** <= PYRENEES*
> *1982* m *Alto Campoo-Fuente del Chivo*
> *1973* m *San Rafael-Valdelinares*
> *1968* m *Ramal, Collado del - Venta Luisa** <= SIERRA NEVADA/FILABRES/BAZA*
> *1968* m *Venta Luisa ** <= SIERRA NEVADA/FILABRES/BAZA*
> *1968* m *Venta Luisa - Calar Alto ** <= SIERRA NEVADA/FILABRES/BAZA*
> *1962* m *Covatilla, La*
> *1947* m *Port-Ainé** <= PYRENEES*
> *1946* m *Morredero - Portillinos*
> *1946* m *Peña Aguda-Llano de las Ovejas*
> *1930* m *Pico de las Nieves **<= CANARY ISLANDS*


http://www.altimetrias.net/aspbk/20altitud.asp


Taking into account that in Bola del Mundo (also featured in the Vuelta) cars aren't allowed, Alto Campoo would indeed be the highest.


Also, don't dismiss other roads just because they don't reach as high. Peña Cabarga in Cantabria (566 m) and El Fitu in Asturias (590 m) have breathtaking views too, provinding the weather isn't very bad.


----------



## verreme

Highway89 said:


> Weren't there signs for Perpignan on the AP-7 in Catalonia too? (Maybe the Catalan version, Perpinyà?)


Yes there are a lot of them. And Montpellier is signed at the very exit of Barcelona.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Termurcianator*

The International Airport of Murcia has officially opened today, 6-7 years after it was completed but couldn't open due to being in a no fly zone. :nuts:

Two autovías were built for access: RM-16 and RM-17. For some time they were pretty pointless since the airport wasn't open for business. 

In July 2018, scenes for Terminator 6 were shot on RM-16, Google Earth imagery happened to have caught that.


----------



## alserrod

I drove between Adanero and Avila to avoid Madrid in a peak weekend for traffic (going from A-6 to A-4) and it was a nightmare after Avila (to A-5

In those years absolutely nothing of motorway. Nowadays, there's a regional motorway from Toledo to south A-4, A-40 and so on... but hardest point is between Avila and A-5


----------



## arctic_carlos

*FV-1*



MichiH said:


> *FV1:* Corralejo – Lajares 6km (? to Early 2019) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


Opening on February, 28th.

Source: https://www.diariodefuerteventura.c...el-enlace-parque-holandés-sigue-sin-tener-una


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> The selected alternative for an autovía between Ávila and Adanero (A-40?). It will be a 23 km long autovía, with a cost estimate of € 126.5 million (€ 5.5 million per km).


The blueprints:































































Viaducts:



















One thing I noticed is that the median is 6 m wide instead of the "traditional" 10 m used in flat terrain. 









They say it's the optimum width considering visibility, environmental impact, land cost, drainage systems and crash barriers. A 10 m wide median doesn't require crash barriers but requires more land. A 2 m wide median requires more expensive drainage systems. 

It may seem irrelevant, but I think it's a proof that Fomento has adopted a new policy of restricting costs... Something they probably should have done 25 years ago?


----------



## Little

Highway89 said:


> The blueprints:
> 
> 
> They say it's the optimum width considering visibility, environmental impact, land cost, drainage systems and crash barriers. A 10 m wide median doesn't require crash barriers but requires more land. A 2 m wide median requires more expensive drainage systems.
> 
> It may seem irrelevant, but I think it's a proof that Fomento has adopted a new policy of restricting costs... Something they probably should have done 25 years ago?


For each meter of motorway, a median 2 meters wider are 20 euros of land adquisition with very expensive land prices, but around 400 euros on safety barriers. On bridges over the motorway would be 10.000 euros each structure. This is not an economical decision, except in the case that might be gradients that would require safety barriers.


----------



## alserrod

About Fuerteventura, what media release says is

- North bound, to be finished

here

https://www.google.com/maps/place/3...b001352b65dd9a1!8m2!3d28.500821!4d-13.8628367

- South bound

will remain ending just in a cross and will not continue to south for a long time. Will have to take current 1x1 FV1

https://www.google.com/maps/place/3...b001352b65dd9a1!8m2!3d28.500821!4d-13.8628367


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## ChrisZwolle

*Valladolid*

Incomplete roundabout in Valladolid :lol:


----------



## adevahi

^^ Exact location?


----------



## ajch

^^^^^^^^
https://goo.gl/maps/LiduHPWJtvB2


----------



## CNGL

At first I thought that happened due to a municipal border being located there, but OpenStreetMap shows both what is built of the roundabout and the land where the remainder would go are in the same municipality, Arroyo de la Encomienda (a suburb to the Southwest of Valladolid). Thus, this can be only explained by either planning or expropiation disputes.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I was browsing on Google Earth (again :lol: ) and noticed this big traffic shift in Málaga. Going back through older images, it becomes clear that this road has been under non-stop construction since 2010. What are they doing here that requires 8+ years of construction? It's Avenida Andalucía, one of the main thoroughfares of Málaga.


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## Highway89

^^ The Metro: https://www.google.es/maps/@36.7162...4!1sv3QVUFHNMEHOYHNx_EsHWg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

In my hometown there's another "expropiation dispute", here: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4489...4!1sAEj-z2CRcqP2PKnfrwE_Ew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Litterally "not in my backyard" https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4490244,-2.4513787,156m/data=!3m1!1e3


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## Highway89

Some pictures of the BU-561, from Santelices to Villarcayo. It goes next to the Santander-Mediterráneo railway line following the river Nela.

1.









2.









3.









4.









5.









6. Places named Quintana-something everywhere









7. Approaching Puentedey









8. Puentedey means God's bridge









9.









10.









11.









12.









13.









14. Arriving in Villarcayo


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Oviedo*

Wow, this is ridiculous. A 50 km/h speed limit on a road that is built like a motorway and doesn't end until 3 km further down the road...

It is former A-66a in Oviedo, it was ceded to Asturias in 2008, which later reduced the speed limit from 90 to 50 km/h.


----------



## alserrod

Yesterday, January 17th, it was 16 years ago, Somport tunnel was open to traffic


----------



## CNGL

And back on 28 December I was about to say, but somehow forgot to post it, that it was 20 years since the then-N-330 motorway (now A-23) between Zaragoza and Huesca was completed and open to traffic.


ChrisZwolle said:


> Wow, this is ridiculous. A 50 km/h speed limit on a road that is built like a motorway and doesn't end until 3 km further down the road...
> 
> It is former A-66a in Oviedo, it was ceded to Asturias in 2008, which later reduced the speed limit from 90 to 50 km/h.


And I thought entering Huesca from A-23 was bad, with a 40 km/h limit from right after you exit the motorway despite being a while until one hits the built-up area.


----------



## adevahi

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was browsing on Google Earth (again :lol: ) and noticed this big traffic shift in Málaga. Going back through older images, it becomes clear that this road has been under non-stop construction since 2010. What are they doing here that requires 8+ years of construction? It's Avenida Andalucía, one of the main thoroughfares of Málaga.


As Highway89 said, it's metro, but you know what? The workings will still remain for more time: 3-4 years more, I think.


----------



## arctic_carlos

It's time for a general update. If I don't mention a given section, that means there are no changes (or I haven't been able to find them).



MichiH said:


> *A23:* south of Arguis – Congosto de Isuela 2km (2007 to March 2019) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


It will be opened in 2 phases. In the first one, the northbound carriageway (mostly a newly built tunnel) will enter into service for both directions, while the current national road is refurbished to become the future southbound carriageway. In any event, the complete opening of the two carriageways in its final configuration will be after the summer, although the first one will open earlier.

Source: http://www.diariodelaltoaragon.es/NoticiasDetalle.aspx?Id=1151150



> *A23:* north of Caldearenas – Alto de Monrepos 5km (< 2009 to Spring 2019) – ? – map


It should open in April 2019. Same source as above.



> *N-IV:* Dos Hermanas-South (AP4) – Los Palacios-North 8.4km (2015/16 to Summer 2019) – project – map


Delayed to 2020, when AP-4 will be already toll-free. What a waste of money. :bash:

Source: http://elcorreoweb.es/provincia/el-...a-2020-cuando-la-ap-4-ya-sea-gratis-LI4497940



> *SG20:* Segovia-North (A601) – Segovia-South (AP61) 15.5km (May 2016 to Summer 2019) – project – map


The southern section, between N-110 and CL-601, will be ready in Spring.

The northern section, between CL-601 and A-601 is delayed and will be completed later.

Source: https://www.infobierzo.com/castilla...19-tras-una-inversion-de-100-millones/434237/



> *A11:* Langa de Duero – San Esteban de Gormaz 11.4km (2009/10 to 2019) – ? – map


Not opening in 2019.

Source: https://www.infobierzo.com/castilla...19-tras-una-inversion-de-100-millones/434237/



> *A32:* west of Ubeda – east of Torreperogil 16.3km (? to 2019) – ? – map
> *A32:* Torreperogil – Villacarrillo 13.6km (? to 2019) – ? – map
> *A32:* Villacarrillo – north of Villanueva del Arzobispo 17.2km (? to 2019) – ? – map


Only the first one will open in 2019. The other two are less advanced. 

https://cadenaser.com/emisora/2019/01/09/radio_ubeda/1547056551_310662.html



> *A44:* Atarfe (N432) – Santa Fe (A92G) 3km (2007 to 2019) – project – map
> *A44:* Santa Fe (A92G) – Las Gabias (A338) 8.7km (2009 to 2019) – project – map
> *A44:* Las Gabias (A338) – Alhendin 6.1km (September 2016 to 2019) – ? – map


Delayed to 2020. Source: https://www.ideal.es/granada/segunda-circunvalacion-retrasara-20190102205008-ntvo.html



> *A63:* La Espina – Salas-East 11.7km (? to 2019) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


Construction of 5 km of the second carriageway (El Reiguerón - Salas) has just been tendered. That means that it won't open in 2019. Maybe in 2020. But the missing 6 km (La Espina - El Reiguerón) haven't been tendered yet.

Source: https://www.lne.es/asturias/2019/01/15/licitadas-obras-adaptar-segunda-calzada/2411102.html



> *A68:* south of Gallur – west of Figueruelas 14.1km (December 2015 to 2019) – project – map


Delayed to 2020. Source: https://www.elperiodicodearagon.com/noticias/temadia/carreteras-eternas_1335606.html



> *A352:* south of Vera – Garrucha 4.3km (2009 to 2018?) – ? – map


Spring 2019. Source: https://www.diariodealmeria.es/prov...an-espera-Autovia-Almanzora_0_1288671584.html


----------



## Little

arctic_carlos said:


> It's time for a general update. If I don't mention a given section, that means there are no changes (or I haven't been able to find them).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It will be opened in 2 phases. In the first one, the northbound carriageway (mostly a newly built tunnel) will enter into service for both directions, while the current national road is refurbished to become the future southbound carriageway. In any event, the complete opening of the two carriageways in its final configuration will be after the summer, although the first one will open earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.diariodelaltoaragon.es/NoticiasDetalle.aspx?Id=1151150
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It should open in April 2019. Same source as above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delayed to 2020, when AP-4 will be already toll-free. What a waste of money. :bash:
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://elcorreoweb.es/provincia/el-...a-2020-cuando-la-ap-4-ya-sea-gratis-LI4497940
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The southern section, between N-110 and CL-601, will be ready in Spring.
> 
> 
> 
> The northern section, between CL-601 and A-601 is delayed and will be completed later.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://www.infobierzo.com/castilla...19-tras-una-inversion-de-100-millones/434237/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not opening in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://www.infobierzo.com/castilla...19-tras-una-inversion-de-100-millones/434237/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only the first one will open in 2019. The other two are less advanced.
> 
> 
> 
> https://cadenaser.com/emisora/2019/01/09/radio_ubeda/1547056551_310662.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delayed to 2020. Source: https://www.ideal.es/granada/segunda-circunvalacion-retrasara-20190102205008-ntvo.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Construction of 5 km of the second carriageway (El Reiguerón - Salas) has just been tendered. That means that it won't open in 2019. Maybe in 2020. But the missing 6 km (La Espina - El Reiguerón) haven't been tendered yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://www.lne.es/asturias/2019/01/15/licitadas-obras-adaptar-segunda-calzada/2411102.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delayed to 2020. Source: https://www.elperiodicodearagon.com/noticias/temadia/carreteras-eternas_1335606.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spring 2019. Source: https://www.diariodealmeria.es/prov...an-espera-Autovia-Almanzora_0_1288671584.html


Two quotations about your information.

There won't be any opening in SG-20 this spring.

It's not expected any tender for the remaining 6 km further the new tender of Salas El Regueiron in A63.


----------



## adevahi

arctic_carlos said:


> Delayed to 2020, when AP-4 will be already toll-free. What a waste of money. :bash:
> 
> Source: http://elcorreoweb.es/provincia/el-...a-2020-cuando-la-ap-4-ya-sea-gratis-LI4497940


Obviously a waste of money if you ignore how dangerous this road is, which would be still the most direct connection from Sevilla and Dos Hermanas to Los Palacios, even if it remains as a national road.
Moreoever, the junction from AP-4 to Los Palacios, doesn't let you to enter inside this town faster than N-IV.

Is not a waste of money, this road will still be used, and more each year, since Dos Hermanas is the town in Sevilla metropolitan area that increases faster its population


----------



## arctic_carlos

Highway89 said:


> I've been browsing through some interesting road projects in the Canary Islands.
> 
> The completion of the insular ring of Tenerife will feature a very long tunnel in Erjos: 4,855 m + 120 m of cut-and-cover tunnel at both ends. That would make it one of the longest tunnels in Spain after Somport and Vielha. It'd be even longer than the Cadí if we count the cut-and-cover at both ends.
> 
> The estimated cost is almost €311M


I'm glad they follow again what I call the "Canarian approach": building an expressway (usually 2+1) but with twin tube tunnels (2x2), so if they ever want to upgrade the expressway to motorway standards, the tunnels are already prepared for that.


----------



## Highway89

Aragón wants to build a 38 km long regional autovía between Gallur (N-232) and Ejea de los Caballeros. It will be a dualling of the A-127.

They're going to spend €723k on the blueprints. Source 










Source: https://contrataciondelestado.es/wp...tIdParam=2fdfcb4c-5753-4c0e-944d-c6a9fcae5939


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It was planned as ARA-A3 in the past. Ejea de los Caballeros is one of the largest towns not on an autovía in Aragón (it is slightly larger than Alcañíz).


----------



## tfd543

Thanks again guys. Hope Malaga gonna be nice.


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## alserrod

Yeah. Indeed, for a long time Monzón, Barbastro (both in A22) and Ejea have had similar population.


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## Highway89

Some photos of the BU-526 between Espinosa de los Monteros and Soncillo in northern Burgos province, Castilla y León.

This was the former C-6318 Bilbao-Reinosa. Yes, a four-digit road, because all other C-63x numbers were already used. This is a proof of how impractical the former Plan Peña was: In theory you have room for 1,000 numbers, but the rules were so restrictive that they had to resort to four-digit numbers.

1.









2.









3.









4.









5. This seems to be the old allignment. It's now used as a car park for visitors of the Museo de Sotoscueva









6.









7.









8. After a quick stop to see "El Ventanón" (_the big window_), we enter Merindad de Valdeporres









The following pictures were taken on a different day on the opposite direction

9.Bilbao was the beginning of the former C-6318 (now BI-636, CL-629, BU-526, BU-574, BU-642 and CA-730).









10.









11.









12.









13.









14.










More photos:
https://imgur.com/a/dI6fUUQ
https://imgur.com/a/4smdoKM


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## ChrisZwolle

How common were 4-digit carreteras comarcales?

Spanish Wikipedia only lists a few of them in the C-1000 and C-3000 range but I believe there were more.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Carreteras_Comarcales_de_España


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> How common were 4-digit carreteras comarcales?
> 
> Spanish Wikipedia only lists a few of them in the C-1000 and C-3000 range but I believe there were more.
> 
> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Carreteras_Comarcales_de_España



From the 1940 _Plan Peña_. Probably the list was modified over the years.

C-1xxx


























C-2xxx











C-3xxx













































C-4xxx
The C-4311 doesn't appear on the 1940 list, but it does on Wikipedia's


C-5xxx - None


C-6xxx








^^ There's a mistake. The last shoud say C-6213.


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## CNGL

Missing from the Plan Peña is C-3331, which was created later in order not to leave C-341 with a hanging end at Jimena de la Frontera after most of C-346 was cancelled. The latter ended up running only from Chiclana de la Frontera to Medina Sidonia, it was planned to continue to Estepona via Jimena.

Note that the Wikipedia list is highly unreliable and full of mistakes. For example what they have as C-231 was actually C-2310, and was current N-211 between Alcañiz and Fraga what really had the number C-231. On the C-22x range no routes beyond C-225 existed. Here is a more reliable list of all _comarcal_ roads that ever existed: https://route-1963.blogspot.com/p/antiguas-carreteras-comarcales-espana.html


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## ChrisZwolle

Isn't there a list of carreteras comarcales from an official source, like BOE? Maybe some law that defined them?


----------



## MichiH

Is there a list of Red Primaria Básica de Galicia routes?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes: https://infraestruturasemobilidade....n_Xeral_Infraestruturas/Estradas/seccion.html

Galician primary autonomous roads are numbered by province, but operated by the community.


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> Isn't there a list of carreteras comarcales from an official source, like BOE? Maybe some law that defined them?



The list in the link posted by CNGL is derived from official sources, like the 1940 Plan Peña and the Royal Decrees that transferred roads to Autonomous Regions.


These Royal Decrees are available here. Just pick a region and search (CTRL+F) for the keyword "carreteras". E.g. for La Rioja, it's *Real Decreto 1591/1984*. The quality of the PDF is so poor it's almost unreadable:












For instance, the second line reads:
C-113 | De Salas de los Infantes a Cenicero por Nájera | En su totalidad


The last lines are unreadable even for someone familiar with La Rioja's placenames like me.


----------



## CNGL

The same site from which I linked the _comarcal_ roads list also has a complete list of national roads as they existed until 1988: https://route-1963.blogspot.com/p/antiguas-carreteras-nacionales-espana.html. It doesn't list N-124, and as result it has a nice mess with all the N-232s in the upper Rioja area.

In another site I found several maps of the Plan Peña, they are linked in this post: https://lascarreterasdeextremadura.blogspot.com/2011/12/denominacion-de-carreteras-ii-plan-pena.html. Apart from the originally planned routes for several roads and some typos (Another route for C-129 in Huesca province? Not to mention C-152 was typoed as C-125 all the way), it shows the following:
- C-222 already starting in Perales del Alfambra (Teruel). The Plan Peña logbook didn't include the initial section, and started it in Vivel del Rio Martin.
- An unnumbered _comarcal_ road running from Grazalema to Algeciras. Definitely C-3331 was planned from the beginning (I thought it was created in order to end C-341 on a road of the same level after C-346 was cancelled), however somehow it was ommited from the Plan Peña. It also got the wrong number (it should have been C-34x with x odd, maybe C-345? That designation would eventually get used, see below).
- The route which A-45 follows between Las Pedrizas pass and Malaga was back then... a local road! :crazy: N-321 went on what is now A-4152 and A-7000, and N-331 on A-7075 (however this didn't last for long, as N-331, and N-334, was soon rerouted to follow current A-7204 to meet N-321, with the originally planned route becoming part of C-3310). It wasn't until 1973 when the national roads were rerouted to follow the route over which A-45 was built, and the previous route became C-345.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

C-602 was the first numbered ring road of Madrid. This was its route:


----------



## Highway89

Traffic on the AP-1 increased a *40%* in December 2018 (first month without tolls) compared to December 2017 - 26,516 vpd (2018) vs. 18,899 vpd (2017). Truck share increased from 16.6% (3,138) to 24.1% (6,400).

The busiest month in 2018 was August, with 38,981 vpd, while February was the quietest (13,976). For comparison, the AP-7 Tarragona-Valencia, along the Mediterranean coast, had an AADT of 33,975 in August 2018.

If the increase in December is extrapolated to August, the AADT in August 2019 could reach ~55,000 vpd. But I think it could be even higher, because some people weren't still aware that the AP-1 had become toll-free in December.

Source:
https://www.fomento.gob.es/recursos_mfom/comodin/recursos/2_peajes17.pdf
https://www.fomento.gob.es/recursos_mfom/comodin/recursos/2_peaje_18_0.pdf

I had to use the AP-1 the other day (Wednesday, 23rd) and I don't think we stayed on the right lane more than half of the time. There were lots of trucks. I wonder how much longer the asphalt is going to last.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> It was planned as ARA-A3 in the past. Ejea de los Caballeros is one of the largest towns not on an autovía in Aragón (it is slightly larger than Alcañíz).


About this issue... easy to explain in euro

Aragon is paying a high part for tolled motorways for cars and trucks. One of those motorways ends as tolled in middle 2021, the second one in 2024.

This is, they can start with projects, they will not been before middle 2021 and same funds for a new motorway. 2024 when opening (or later) more funds, same budget


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> C-602 was the first numbered ring road of Madrid. This was its route:


C-602 originally went through El Pardo. This would have meant it would have plunged right through La Zarzuela palace! 

Also, the Plan Peña maps have answered my wonders on where on "The Ridge" (_La Sierra_) C-601 from Madrid to "The Ridge" would have gone: Navacerrada, junctioning then-N-601 (now M-601). Anyway, the El Pardo wilderness (_Monte de El Pardo_) would become private property in the 60s, causing C-601 to be truncated to El Pardo (near Madrid) and leading to the creation of C-607.


----------



## Stuu

Highway89 said:


> Aragón wants to build a 38 km long regional autovía between Gallur (N-232) and Ejea de los Caballeros. It will be a dualling of the A-127.


A question about converting roads like this one to autovia: in the UK, if a road is upgraded to motorway (don't laugh...), then an alternative route has to be provided for bikes and tractors etc. that are banned from the motorway. For example, the A44 north of Granada has been converted from the previous N road, but there is no alternative route for non-motorway traffic. Or is that not considered a problem in Spain?


----------



## alserrod

In first motorways, strongly didn't

Nowadays, ir alternative is quite expensive (or not enough traffic) they Will make as at you said but speed will not be 120


----------



## Highway89

Stuu said:


> A question about converting roads like this one to autovia: in the UK, if a road is upgraded to motorway (don't laugh...), then an alternative route has to be provided for bikes and tractors etc. that are banned from the motorway.



It's the same in Spain:


> TÍTULO IV
> Vías de servicio y accesos a las mismas
> CAPÍTULO I
> Definiciones y codiciones generales
> [...]
> 67. Documentos relativos a las vías de servicio.-En todos los estudios y proyectos de construcción o de trazado de nuevas carreteras, variantes, duplicaciones de calzada, acondicionamiento, ensanche de la plataforma u ordenación de accesos, etc., que se redacten por los Servicios dependientes de la Dirección General de Carreteras se incluirán las vías de servicio que se consideren necesarias, aplicando los preceptos de la presente norma. *Con dichas vías de servicio debe asegurarse la ordenación de los accesos y la continuidad de recorrido para los vehículos cuya circulación por la carretera principal se encuentre limitada (tractores y maquinaria agrícola, ciclomotores, etc.).*


https://boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-1998-1457




Stuu said:


> For example, the A44 north of Granada has been converted from the previous N road, but there is no alternative route for non-motorway traffic. Or is that not considered a problem in Spain?


But _there is_ an alternative route :dunno: : https://www.google.com/maps/@37.359...4!1s1lvr5zQw_whVvd1SGhn9uw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656




Maybe you are referring to a paved alternative route? Then no, a _vía de servicio_ is not considered a _carretera_ but a _camino_, therefore there's no need for it to be paved.



> TÍTULO IV
> Vías de servicio y accesos a las mismas
> CAPÍTULO I
> Definiciones y codiciones generales
> 65. Definición.-La vía de servicio, o calzada de servicio, *es un camino sensiblemente paralelo a una carretera*, respecto de la cual tiene carácter secundario, conectado a ésta solamente en algunos puntos y que sirve a las propiedades o edificios contiguos.
> 66. Clasificación de las vías de servicio.-Las vías de servicio pueden ser unidireccionales o bidireccionales.
> Por sus características, las vías de servicio son elementos funcionales y, como tales,* no tienen la consideración de carreteras*, si bien puede haber carreteras que hagan la función de la vía de servicio, en cuyo caso prevalece la condición de carretera sobre la de vía de servicio.


The only stretch without _vía de servicio_ that comes to my mind right now is the A-1 between San Agustín de Guadalix and Venturada: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7723461,-3.6069769,263m/data=!3m1!1e3


(obviously, excluding bridges and tunnels)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The general speed limit on wide single carriageway roads will be reduced from 100 to 90 km/h, starting tomorrow, 29 January 2019.


----------



## g.spinoza

Hard time for motorists in Europe...


----------



## Stuu

Highway89 said:


> It's the same in Spain:
> 
> But _there is_ an alternative route :dunno: : https://www.google.com/maps/@37.359...4!1s1lvr5zQw_whVvd1SGhn9uw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> Maybe you are referring to a paved alternative route? Then no, a _vía de servicio_ is not considered a _carretera_ but a _camino_, therefore there's no need for it to be paved.


Ok thanks for answering. I did see those routes on the map and streetview but I didn't realise they were official routes, as they are more like farm tracks and there are no signs or anything at either end


----------



## slickman

ChrisZwolle said:


> Wow, this is ridiculous. A 50 km/h speed limit on a road that is built like a motorway and doesn't end until 3 km further down the road...
> 
> It is former A-66a in Oviedo, it was ceded to Asturias in 2008, which later reduced the speed limit from 90 to 50 km/h.


Maybe noice reduction due to people living nearby


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Flooding is reported in Northern Spain, apparently especially in Asturias and Cantabria.

This is reported to be N-625 in the Desfiladero de los Beyos. I drove this road a few years ago, it looks scary.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1089967169008484352


----------



## Peines

ChrisZwolle said:


> C-602 was the first numbered ring road of Madrid. This was its route:












Someone has restored n milestone of the C-602 in Aravaca, Km 13.

It’s here, https://goo.gl/maps/y1BwYk1FHWU2


----------



## adevahi

Stuu said:


> Ok thanks for answering. I did see those routes on the map and streetview but I didn't realise they were official routes, as they are more like farm tracks and there are no signs or anything at either end


Even if they are not paved, and their maintenance sometimes looks like non-existing, these alternative routes need to accomplish some requirements, like they have to be continuous enough so they can't have obstacles and they have to be wide enough for a vehicle.

In Spain, the legislation also forces to don't delete any _vía pecuaria_ when a new infrastructure is done. _Vías pecuarias_ are the "official" routes used by domestic animals (ranchings is the name?) and depending on the category of the vía pecuaria (_cañada real_, _cordel_, _vereda_ or coladas) they must be very wide or not (only coladas can be less wide than 20 meters wide). If a new road, railroad, water canal or any other structure intersect with a _vía pecuaria_ (which surely happens if the working have few kms long), an alternative route for _vía pecuaria_ must be done.


----------



## alserrod

It comes from late Middle Age, mainly from early Modern Age... there are some routes are entitled to walk with domestic animals. Nowadays they are barely used (anyway I have seen some documentaries about some families that farmer stays in my region five months per year, another five months in southern Spain, one month for going and back with animals and his family lived all the year in the south because school but asap they ended, they went to northern side. I am talking about 500 km or more of distance)

These routes can cross even cities and to have rights to keep them, they must use at least one day per year.
Sometimes they will call police to advice them they are going to cross and will choose to make early morning or late night to avoid traffic jams... but they will always cross them once per year not to lose rights


----------



## Suburbanist

Spanish cities are surprisingly compact for their population, which only compounds a sense of "vastness" given the fact its population is already more concentrated in a few larger areas compared to France or even more Italy and Germany.

It appears from historical imagery that only in the mid/late 1980s they started to greatly expand the footprint of major metros (with exception of the Mediterranean coast).

I'm not even talking about necessarily suburban developments, but just developments in general. Seems the "city boundaries" did not change that much between WW2 and 1980. Cities grew, but nowhere near as the horizontal expansion of Paris metro, or Milano metro.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think Spain is relatively polycentric, there are large cities (100,000+) all across the country. However the density of its smaller towns is also surprising, even small towns with under 30,000 people are densely built, what's the reason for that? They had plenty of land available in most cases. 

I was Street Viewing the town of Oliva (Valencia). N-332 goes through a street canyon. The municipality has a population of 26,000, the town perhaps 20,000 on only 1.5 km². Towns of that size in France, Benelux or Germany would not have such a population density.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

land is very expensive here in spain ( for the prize of a flat in spain you get a pavillon in france , but this density is similar in italy , greece or portugal
Durango (E) Durango, Bizkaia by In Memoriam 1960-1978, en Flickr

braganza (P) Ventimiglia (i) Ventimiglia - Italia by Antu, en Flickr
Bragança - Portugal by Vitor Oliveira, en Flickr Larisa (GR) Ρεπορτάζ στην ομίχλη by Dimitrios Maimaris, en Flickr


----------



## adevahi

Suburbanist said:


> Spanish cities are surprisingly compact for their population, which only compounds a sense of "vastness" given the fact its population is already more concentrated in a few larger areas compared to France or even more Italy and Germany.
> 
> It appears from historical imagery that only in the mid/late 1980s they started to greatly expand the footprint of major metros (with exception of the Mediterranean coast).
> 
> I'm not even talking about necessarily suburban developments, but just developments in general. Seems the "city boundaries" did not change that much between WW2 and 1980. Cities grew, but nowhere near as the horizontal expansion of Paris metro, or Milano metro.





ChrisZwolle said:


> I think Spain is relatively polycentric, there are large cities (100,000+) all across the country. However the density of its smaller towns is also surprising, even small towns with under 30,000 people are densely built, what's the reason for that? They had plenty of land available in most cases.
> 
> I was Street Viewing the town of Oliva (Valencia). N-332 goes through a street canyon. The municipality has a population of 26,000, the town perhaps 20,000 on only 1.5 km². Towns of that size in France, Benelux or Germany would not have such a population density.


Maybe something as simple than the weather, which let us to go walking to so many places, that we prefer to have a compact city where distances are short. In fact, northwest Spain (most rainy place in Spain) is where towns are less compact.
Is just a guess.


----------



## Stuu

I have wondered about this too... I would expect it is a combination of land ownership, and the type of agriculture. In the south where vineyards and olives dominate, the countryside is relatively empty, with larger dense towns. In Galicia the settlement pattern is similar to northern Europe, with many more villages and ribbon development along roads. Even there the towns are dense though e.g. picking a random small town Vilalba has a population of 15000, and has 8 floor buildings in the centre. No town of that size in northern Europe has buildings that tall, so it must also be a function of land ownership


----------



## Highway89

It's basically due to historical and climatic reasons.

Historically, in Galicia, the northern coast, the Cordillera Cantábrica and the Pyrenees the villages were more scattered. In the northern plateau and the mid and lower Ebro Valley, many towns were built in places that were easy to defend in the so-called "Reconquista" (i.e. expansion of the Christian kingdoms to the South). Usually there was a castle on a hill and the houses were built around it - all of it surrounded by a wall. Then, in the southern half of Spain, most of the land was given to certain landlords ("hidalgos") or military orders, so there were fewer villages.

The other important factor is climate. Water is scarce in many parts of the country, which leads to fewer and more compact villages.

If you look at a map of municipalities in Spain, you'll see that the biggest ones are in the South. The exception are some regions in the North, where villages are so small that they're grouped into larger municipalities:










Of course, most recent urban planning can differ. Basque towns are particularly dense, as they had to adapt to the hilly terrain, but are very livable. Some towns in La Mancha are less dense but have a worse urban planning IMO (more chaotic, fewer parks, etc). The first look like small cities, the second like big villages.

Oñati, Basque Country, pop. 11k:



















At the same zoom level, Tomelloso, La Mancha, pop. 37k:



















Edit:
Galicia is considered to have a very chaotic urban planning. Ribbon development, building with very different heighs next to each other...

Generally, most recent urban developments in towns with a population around 10k are indistinguishable from those in bigger cities, including province capitals. E.g. Haro (pop. 11k) vs. Logroño (pop. 150k).



















As you'll notice, builidings are lower and there are more green spaces than in super-dense 1960's Spanish urban planning.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How big are those apartments in Spain?

There appears to be a strong correlation between the population living in apartments and birth rates, aside from economic crises. East Asian apartment cities have very low birth rates and a high cost of living.


----------



## Highway89

Usually it ranges from 70 m2 (750 sq ft) to 150 m2 (1,600 sqft).
https://www.idealista.com/alquiler-viviendas/logrono/san-adrian-la-cava/
https://www.idealista.com/alquiler-viviendas/la-rioja/rioja-alta/

I now live in a 75m2 apartment with 2 bedrooms, but I grew up in a 100m2 apartment with 3 bedrooms - and I have one brother and two sisters.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's pretty big. I also live in an apartment, 50 m² and 2 bedrooms. But out of the 30-something apartments here, only 4 have more than 1 person living there, and only 1 has a baby. And this is a reasonably nice neighborhood (no crime, ruckus, plenty of parking, etc.)


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> I hint here because... providing after Brexit, it will happen the same in Gibraltar.
> 
> (thus more queues because non EU citizens)


I've got a good friend in Gibraltar who says that there is intense diplomacy going on between Gibraltar and Madrid about border issues. The word right now is that Spain will apply the same controls as with Andorra, but on condition that Gibraltar continues to work closely with the Guardia Civil on immigration issues.

Both Spain and Gibraltar are apparently very keen to avoid a hard border there, and as Gibraltar has an independent immigration policy to the UK, there's no reason for them not to cooperate. 

From a customs point of view, Gibraltar has actually made a deal with Spain to increase certain taxes (particularly fuel and tobacco) in exchange for a light customs regime at the border. The gossip mentioned right now is that there's very serious consideration in the Gibraltar government to apply for Schengen entry, provided the UK agrees.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> How big are those apartments in Spain?
> 
> There appears to be a strong correlation between the population living in apartments and birth rates, aside from economic crises. East Asian apartment cities have very low birth rates and a high cost of living.


They haven't been smaller after crisis, mainly because a lot of unselled appartments were built before crisis.

I remember, when studying high school that an explanation given was in heat areas, narrow streets (and white walls) to shadow all around and no hot wind

Conversely in wet areas


In Spain we can find Atlantic, Continental and Mediterranena weather and it will be important in urbanism


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> I've got a good friend in Gibraltar who says that there is intense diplomacy going on between Gibraltar and Madrid about border issues. The word right now is that Spain will apply the same controls as with Andorra, but on condition that Gibraltar continues to work closely with the Guardia Civil on immigration issues.
> 
> Both Spain and Gibraltar are apparently very keen to avoid a hard border there, and as Gibraltar has an independent immigration policy to the UK, there's no reason for them not to cooperate.
> 
> From a customs point of view, Gibraltar has actually made a deal with Spain to increase certain taxes (particularly fuel and tobacco) in exchange for a light customs regime at the border. The gossip mentioned right now is that there's very serious consideration in the Gibraltar government to apply for Schengen entry, provided the UK agrees.


Problem is smuggling in both cases. 
In addition, it doesn't bother passport control with Andorra because absolutely all people crossing borders have been before sometimes in France or in Spain (except babies born in Andorra and taking out country for first time).

With Andorra mainly problem is money cash. It is known there are a lot of hidden bank accounts and people try to re-cash all funds. They are entitled to cross up to 10K euro 
(I have seen a program where a person crossed with a lot of money. Police catched him and sent to tax offices in the border. He had below 10K but... it was second time he had crossed border with Andorra that day. He said he had to return and carried always same money but... in first control tax office had scanned bank-notes, therefore, they knew they were different ones because serial number... thus fraud)

In the case with Gibraltar, numbers are easy... providing local population, each citizen, including minors and babies should smoke six packs every day... or all tobacco is smuggled.

Last week there was a dispute between gangs in the Spanish side and even tiny border, smugglers go and back again. Therefore, strong controls in cars when exit. 

That's why I recommend to cross on foot. They will just check your luggage and enough. In a car they can take you all the luggage and look for in the most incredible sites for a while even if long queues


----------



## Highway89

Some pictures of roads in the Valle de Tobalina area.


First, the, *A-2122* and *BU-530* (former *C-122*) between Miranda de Ebro and Trespaderne, along the Ebro.


1.









2.









3. Junction with the former N-625, which now has to yield to us.









4. Lots of power lines, going mostly from the Garoña power plant (now closed) to the Bilbao area.









5.









6.









7. Entering Castilla y León, more specifically the "Castilla" part of it. In Spain, vandalising regional border and direction signs is as popular a sport as football.









8.









9. BU-530 is the backbone of Valle de Tobalina. Many local roads intersect with it.









10. One of those Spanish placenames with the word "barco" (ship) on them despite not being anywhere near the coast. Weird.









I left the road shortly after, but took the following pictures of the remaining section on a different day. On the opposite direction, though.
11. 









12.









13.









14. Narrow bridge over the Jerea.









15.









16. Old milestone painted in yellow, as BU-530 used to be a provincial road.









17.


----------



## Highway89

*BU-532* is another road in Valle de Tobalina. It's narrower, but a bit more fun to drive.

18.









19. The municipality of Valle de Tobalina (pop. 948) has 38 villages.









20.









21. 









22. This road was even emptier than BU-530









23.










Last, but not least, we'll drive the *BU-504*, which will take us out of Valle de Tobalina via the 1,003 m high Portillo de Busto pass via the beautiful town of Frías.

24. Frías (pop. 254) is the smallest _city_ in Spain. Officially, it was given the title of "ciudad" in 1435. In reality, this means nothing. Madrid and Bilbao, for instance, don't have the title of "ciudad", but "villa" (town).









25. Crossing the Ebro









26. It's quite a charming village city. Also, there couldn't lack a placename with "Quintana" on it.









27. Now we start to climb up to Tobera









28.









29. 









30. After this crossing, we start to climb up again. This time, towards the Portillo de Busto.









31.









32.









33. Time to update the 'camera' pictogram, maybe?









34. Downhill! as we behold the plains of La Bureba









35.









36. 









37.









38. We've just crossed from the Ebro valley to the Meseta











More photos:
https://imgur.com/a/pzzPE6u
https://imgur.com/a/OLcDceX
https://imgur.com/a/xRMFJr7


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## Stuu

Highway89 said:


> 5.


Great photos as usual... what does this sign mean though? The google translation makes no sense


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## Little

Stuu said:


> Great photos as usual... what does this sign mean though? The google translation makes no sense


A lot of curves and although the central line might make you think overtaking is allowed, you must be careful.


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## ChrisZwolle

There are a lot of those signs in Northern Spain, are they as common in Southern Spain? I don't recall seeing them as often in the south.


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## Highway89

Stuu said:


> Great photos as usual... what does this sign mean though? The google translation makes no sense


Thanks! It means that the dashed line in the middle only marks the centre of the road - i.e. it doesn't imply that overtaking is safe.




ChrisZwolle said:


> There are a lot of those signs in Northern Spain, are they as common in Southern Spain? I don't recall seeing them as often in the south.


I remember the A-357 between San Pedro de Alcántara and Ronda, which has quite a lot of traffic in the summer: https://goo.gl/maps/Fk5p1Eye7bm


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## Highway89

A couple of news about tunnels:

The Arguís tunnel (*A-23*) is almost finished:



>


https://jacetaniaexpress.com/la-sub...as-obras-del-tunel-de-arguis-casi-finalizado/


The project of the tunnels under the Guadalquivir river (*SE-40*) is being redone. Apparently the _Confederación Hidrográfica del Guadalquivir_ (river basin management authority) asked for a modification. The northern tunnels need to be longer and the southern tunnels need even more requirements.



> En ese foro explicó que los túneles Norte precisaban un recrecimiento de las bocas del túnel (los llamados emboquilles) a petición de la Confederación Hidrográfica del Guadalquivir (CHG). Y que las obras de ese emboquille comenzarían por la parte más próxima a Coria y Gelves para conectarlos con el tramo a Almensilla (ya terminado) como paso previo a que se pusiera a funcionar la tuneladora.
> 
> El verdadero problema lo plantean los túneles Sur de la SE-40 porque, como explicó hace más de un año De la Serna, son los que tienen mayor complejidad en su construcción para adaptarlos a las condiciones de la Confederación Hidrográfica. El contrato que se adjudicó en su día tenía que rescindirse, actualizar el proyecto y volver a licitar la obra. De ese anuncio ha pasado ya más de un año.


https://www.diariodesevilla.es/sevilla/SE-40-modificado-tuneles-estara-meses_0_1323468053.html


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are a lot of those signs in Northern Spain, are they as common in Southern Spain? I don't recall seeing them as often in the south.


I do not know but I am really used to see those signals un Nothern Spain. They are mainly not just on narrow roads but with a lot of curves (thus mountains)

About translation, first sentence is in Basque. Hard to use in Google


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## adevahi

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are a lot of those signs in Northern Spain, are they as common in Southern Spain? I don't recall seeing them as often in the south.


I'm from south Spain and I don't remember having seen it again. We have mountain ranges too, you know, but maybe our urbanism (less villages and more medium-size towns) make less common the need of so many narrow roads.



Stuu said:


> Great photos as usual... what does this sign mean though? The google translation makes no sense


Well, I didn't understand the meaning in the same way as the other users explained, even being a spanish speaker. I thought the signal was meaning something like "due to the road being very narrow, you can overpass the middle-line if you want, but be caution". And yes, I have driving license :lol:.


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## Highway89

adevahi said:


> I'm from south Spain and I don't remember having seen it again. We have mountain ranges too, you know, but maybe our urbanism (less villages and more medium-size towns) make less common the need of so many narrow roads.


Narrow roads in Andalusia seem to have the edge lines only: https://goo.gl/maps/k7Eh1rki6rN2



adevahi said:


> Well, I didn't understand the meaning in the same way as the other users explained, even being a spanish speaker. I thought the signal was meaning something like "due to the road being very narrow, you can overpass the middle-line if you want, but be caution". And yes, I have driving license :lol:.


Actually, you are allowed to cross a center dashed line if the lane is narrower than 3 m.


> b) Marca longitudinal discontinua. Una línea discontinua en la calzada está destinada a delimitar los carriles con el fin de guiar la circulación, y significa que ningún conductor debe circular con su vehículo o animal sobre ella, *salvo, cuando sea necesario y la seguridad de la circulación lo permita, en calzadas con carriles estrechos (de menos de tres metros de anchura)*.


https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2003-23514


Take for instance this road: https://goo.gl/maps/pAVFkyMntD52. It's physically impossible to fit a car in the right lane (let alone overtake) so you normally use all of its width. The middle line is still there in case you encounter an incoming vehicle, so that both drivers know where the middle of the road is.


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## Aokromes

alsama said:


> Variante de Berantevilla.
> 
> La variante esta abierta desde la nueva rotonda de acceso a la AP-68 incluido el nuevo puente sobre la N-124
> 
> Dirección Treviño. Puente de acceso a Berantevilla
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desdoblamiento N-124
> 
> 
> Abierta la calzada dirección Vitoria en todo el tramo de las obras, de forma provisional.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Demolido el puente sobre el río Ayuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Así era el puente antes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abierto también el nuevo acceso al polígono de Lacorzanilla, solo sirve para lo que vienen desde Vitoria.
> A la derecha se puede ver el nuevo puente del río Ayuda dirección Vitoria y el puente de la N-124 demolido.


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## Highway89

I had some photos stored in an external hard drive whose USB port eventually got damaged. Fortunately I've just been able to salvage the data. Here are some of the pictures, taken mostly between 2015-2017. Some of them are overly post-processed (i.e. too much Adobe Lightroom), but anyway. Also, it's possible that some of them have already been posted - sorry about that. Almost all of them were taken in La Rioja, unless specified otherwise.

1. LR-113 near Canales de la Sierra









2. LR-113 near Ventrosa









3. A-2124 climbing up the Herrera pass, Álava









4. LR-432 near Matute with the Peñas de Tobía in the background









5. LR-472 near Los Molinos de Ocón









6. LR-475 near Las Ruedas de Ocón









7. LR-471 near Santa Lucía de Ocón









8. LR-404 near Cellorigo









9. LR-312 near Foncea









10. NA-7210 La Aldea pass, Navarre









11. The AP-68 through the Conchas de Haro









12.









13.









14. LR-323 near Grañón









15.









16. LR-412 near Villarta









17.









18. The road to Moncalvillo mountain









19. 









20. NA-7291 in the Valle de Lana, Navarre. The whole valley is surrounded by these rocky walls and has only two narrow entrances.









21. N-111 near Torrecilla en Cameros









22. N-111 near Villanueva de Cameros - former and current allignments









23. LR-331 near Villaverde de Rioja









24. Country lanes near Villaverde de Rioja









25. N-629 between Oña and Trespaderne, Burgos










More: https://imgur.com/a/KdTqHG3


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## Highway89

It's very likely that tomorrow the Prime Minister announces new elections in Spain due to the Parliament's refusal of the 2019 Budget. The date is still unknown, but some sources say they'll be held in late April.
https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2019/02/14/5c648e62fc6c83d7318b45d3.html
https://elpais.com/politica/2019/02/14/actualidad/1550140372_756809.html

This could affect some important decisions, such as not extending the concessions of the AP-7 between Tarragona and Alicante and the AP-4 between Sevilla and Cádiz.


Anyway, some pictures of roads in Burgos and La Rioja I took last year. I find winter a bit depressing, so I enjoy watching pictures I took during the other seasons of the year 

1. *N-120* between Santo Domingo de La Calzada and Navarrete. The *A-12* runs parallel so it carries very little traffic now.









2.









3.









4.









5.









6.









7.











8. *N-629* between El Crucero de Montija and Trespaderne









9.









10.









11.









12.









13.









14. *LR-111* between Santo Domingo de la Calzada and Haro. 









15. The bypass of Castañares is a super-two.









16.









17.









18.









19. *BU-V-8133* near Arlanzón. The future A-12 is planned to go through this area in order to avoid the archeological sites of Atapuerca.









20. *BU-V-7012* near Santovenia de Oca









N-120: https://imgur.com/a/QWqQcI5
N-629: https://imgur.com/a/1nbaVMZ
LR-111: https://imgur.com/a/c0OD9i7
BU-V roads: https://imgur.com/a/uW8BdY2


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## ChrisZwolle

I like reorganizing my summer photos as well  Winter photos are generally depressing, though a nice winter wonderland can be interesting.

If a change of government occurs (which appears to be rather certain), is there a chance that they will roll back the 90 km/h speed limit (to the situation like on photo #1)?


----------



## Highway89

I'm quite unsure about the political future of Spain. IMO, the chances are high that the situation of the first half of 2016 will occur again - i.e. the current government will remain as an acting one as long as the political parties fail to reach an agreement. Anyway, if a new government is elected by the Parliament, I don't really believe that they'll restore the 100 km/h speed limit. The discomfort hasn't been big compared to France, for instance. Most people just (reluctantly) accepted it.


----------



## adevahi

Highway89 said:


> It's very likely that tomorrow the Prime Minister announces new elections in Spain due to the Parliament's refusal of the 2019 Budget. The date is still unknown, but some sources say they'll be held in late April.
> https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2019/02/14/5c648e62fc6c83d7318b45d3.html
> https://elpais.com/politica/2019/02/14/actualidad/1550140372_756809.html
> 
> This could affect some important decisions, such as not extending the concessions of the AP-7 between Tarragona and Alicante and the AP-4 between Sevilla and Cádiz.


I'm pretty sure no political party will accept to extend more the toll of AP-4. That road will be surely free in 2020 (or was it 2021?), no matter how many more times we have to vote before having a government.


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## Highway89

^^ I really hope you're right. The last news I've read about the AP-4/AP-7 was a week ago: Fomento confirms that AP-4 and AP-7 will become toll-free by the end of the year


----------



## GmoRioJaneiro

What so beautiful landscapes!!!


----------



## ajch

Old photos from 2018. Easter in the Pyrenees. From Torla to Fiscal and Sabiñanigo (N260A and N260)

1 - Village of Torla-Ordesa. Door to the National Park of Ordesa








2 - N260A - going down from Torla to Fiscal. Road is very narrow








3 - N260A - going down from Torla to Fiscal








4 - N260A - going down from Torla to Fiscal








5 - N260A - going down from Torla to Fiscal








6 - Roundabout of fiscal. N260A becomes N260








7 - Roundabout of fiscal. N260A becomes N260. Right exit for us








8 -Going up to the tunnels. Road becomes wide.








9 - Going up to the tunnels








10 - Going up to the tunnels. Snow is starting to become a problem








11 - Entering Tunnel de Berroy (short one)








12 - Between tunnels








13 - Entering Petralba tunnel (large one)








14 - Tunnel de Petralba (signal say stop (in the tunnel) forbidden)








15 - Tunnel de Petralba








16 - No more photos. It was becoming dangerous.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*EX-100 Badajoz - Cáceres*

The _Junta de Extremadura_ wants to transfer the EX-100 between Badajoz and Cáceres to the national government to be converted into an autovía.

>> http://www.juntaex.es/comunicacion/noticia?idPub=27267#.XH-2mWsUlrQ

The EX-A4 was originally planned in this corridor. It would be substantially shorter than A-66/A-5, but traffic volumes are very low (3,000 - 4,000 vehicles per day) which don't require an upgrade to autovía. 

I think it's kind of unusual to transfer an autonomous road to the central government, normally it is the other way around. In fact, EX-100 used to be a national road (N-523) and was transferred to the Extremadura government in 1984 and renumbered to EX-100 to 1997.


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## alserrod

In Catalonia, N-260 and C-26 have been shifted because same reason (well, not highway, just upgrading)


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> The EX-A4 was originally planned in this corridor. It would be substantially shorter than A-66/A-5, but traffic volumes are very low (3,000 - 4,000 vehicles per day) which don't require an upgrade to autovía.



It could attract traffic from the A-5/A-66. Not only traffic between Cáceres and Badajoz, but also long-distance (Portugal-Madrid), because Trujillo-Badajoz is slightly shorter via Cáceres. Also, the A-5 is for the most part a first-generation autovía.











The main problem is bypassing Cáceres. 











But this will be avoided once the southern bypass is built.









--------------------------------
I forgot to mention that Castilla y León built the A-231 on its own instead of "waiting" for Fomento to build an autovía parallel to the N-120. The mileage, unlike the N-120 starts in León. Maybe it's time for Fomento to take over the A-231 and renumber it to A-12 with an east-west mileage.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

former N523 cáceres badajoz 








https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OGR7lx7MYik/Tl-49jyHqhI/AAAAAAAAAGU/NBUfI7UX5Z0/s1600/DSC06015.JPG


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## alserrod

In Spain it is weird because nor N-1, N-2, N-4 not N-5 are shorter roads to go from Madrid to Irun, La Junquera, Cadiz and Badajoz


----------



## Carretero

ChrisZwolle said:


> The projects not completed from the first phase are:
> * A-1 Madrid - Santo Tomé del Puerto
> * A-3 Madrid - Tarancón
> * A-4 Ocaña - Puerto Lapice
> * A-4 Venta de Cárdenas - Sevilla


The following project was not completed, at least not totally:
A-4 Madrid-PK 67,5 (R4)

Only the refurbishing of Aranjuez bypass (from km 37 to 48, aprox.) was done, I think that it was not related to these projects, but with other different contract.


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## ChrisZwolle

A sign battle on the Catalonia - Aragón border.










>> https://www.diaridetarragona.com/eb...an-en-la-frontera-en-Arnes-20190306-0045.html

I think there should be an A-231 sign. The road ahead is A-231, T-330 ends at this point. The bridge is on the border but is maintained by Catalonia. 

On the other hand Aragón could just installed the A-231 sign 100 meters down the road.


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## Peines

ChrisZwolle said:


> A sign battle on the Catalonia - Aragón border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >> https://www.diaridetarragona.com/eb...an-en-la-frontera-en-Arnes-20190306-0045.html
> 
> I think there should be an A-231 sign. The road ahead is A-231, T-330 ends at this point. The bridge is on the border but is maintained by Catalonia.
> 
> On the other hand Aragón could just installed the A-231 sign 100 meters down the road.


:lol:

The person who signposted that sign is my hero.
.

Here is a typical example in the typical catalonia :


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## Highway89

^^ What's the problem with that?


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## ChrisZwolle

Probably that Catalonia is not monolingual, but bilingual. I've read a story about a Dutch guy who moved to Catalonia decades ago and learned Spanish, but had trouble as government correspondence began to be only in Catalan.


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## Vignole

^^
Can I talk about politics here?


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## g.spinoza

No.


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> Probably that Catalonia is not monolingual, but bilingual. I've read a story about a Dutch guy who moved to Catalonia decades ago and learned Spanish, but had trouble as government correspondence began to be only in Catalan.


Please do _not_ start a conversation on Catalan language politics, it can trigger a nuclear war.


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## ChrisZwolle

Okay, sorry


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> A sign battle on the Catalonia - Aragón border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >> https://www.diaridetarragona.com/eb...an-en-la-frontera-en-Arnes-20190306-0045.html
> 
> I think there should be an A-231 sign. The road ahead is A-231, T-330 ends at this point. The bridge is on the border but is maintained by Catalonia.
> 
> On the other hand Aragón could just installed the A-231 sign 100 meters down the road.



I chatted about it in several threads. Regarding bounds Aragon-Catalonia, most of them are in a river, therefore it is quite easy to point where each territory starts.
In those cases I found that only in one case, signals were accurate in place. In almost all of them, incluiding local non paved paths, Catalan signs in Aragon territory as in this one (and I found one conversely, BTW). 

Today, sign that says you are entering Aragon came down...










In any case... there was a signal with distance to nearest towns and... there's another signal but with Aragonese standards, inside Aragon (after 5m or so since bound)




ChrisZwolle said:


> Probably that Catalonia is not monolingual, but bilingual. I've read a story about a Dutch guy who moved to Catalonia decades ago and learned Spanish, but had trouble as government correspondence began to be only in Catalan.


Not politics, just administration....

Catalan administration will answer always in Catalan except in case
- you have requested to be answered in Spanish
- you have pointed an address in Spain coming from a non-Catalan speaking area

in case of speaking, first sentence they will say will be in Catalan but it is mandatory to keep citizen language (issue is, let's consider an officer asking anything to any citizen, first sentence in Catalan, should he's bilingual, surely will answer in Catalan and will keep on. Should he doesn't understand, question would be the same in Spanish)
I remember asking something to an administration and receiving answer in Catalan. I learnt that law and I always remember to be answered in Spanish each time I write to any Catalan administration. Sometimes is by default. I remember receiving a letter in Catalan from a small village and it was enough to call them and ask for a translation. They said they missed up letters and languages and in a couple of days I had same letter translated




Peines said:


> :lol:
> 
> The person who signposted that sign is my hero.
> .



I guess, requested by Territory Aragonese minister, Mr. Soro, belonging to Chunta Aragonesista


----------



## alserrod

and not far away from A-231...

N-232 to be opened in one week in Monroyo

https://www.google.com/maps/place/4...1b1b4ee702a3dd5!8m2!3d40.7874171!4d-0.0332365

google street view is not updated in that area since one decade, BTW


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## MichiH

arctic_carlos said:


> They haven't announced a new A-XX numebering for this section, but I guess it's quite likely that the current N-338 numbering is abandoned once the project is completed.


It was reported in 2015 to be AA-11



CNGL said:


> Several new sections have been put for tender last week: [...] and the duplication of N-338 near Alicante, that upon its completion will have yet another prefix: AA-11!


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## VITORIA MAN

from catalonia , new stop sign in torrelameu village








https://www.ccma.cat/multimedia/jpg/8/3/1552122418138.jpg


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## Highway89

Some pictures of the A-21 taken by Vertical at Nevasport forum, from the access to the Santa Cilia landing strip.



> Looking west (towards Pamplona)
> 
> December 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 11 March 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Looking east (towards Jaca)
> 
> December 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 11 March 2019


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## ChrisZwolle

*N-232 Monroyo*

This Friday a 14 kilometer segment of upgraded N-232 opens to traffic near Monroyo in eastern Aragón.

The € 70 million project has reduced driving distance by 3 km and driving time by much more, as it rebuilt N-232 on a completely new alignment that is much straighter and allows for significantly higher speeds.


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## clickgr

I mean about the tomorrow opening day and the upcoming dates, not about the project. EDIT: I just saw there are dates. thanks


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## alserrod

clickgr said:


> I mean about the tomorrow opening day and the upcoming dates, not about the project. EDIT: I just saw there are dates. thanks


To resume

Arguis gorge (tunnel 3) will be 1x1 for a while. They will work on current road (further lanes to Huesca when 2x2). It was the same situation when tunnel 1 opened to traffic

Caldearenas tunnel (tunnel 7 and 8) will open direction Jaca. 
Direction Huesca, for 3 weeks they will remain current road (it is 2x1, thus they can use 2 lanes but with restrictions on works to join a little current stretch with new road)

Therefore, for several months (expected in late summer, I reckon Autumn), Zaragoza-Lanave will be 2x2 except for 2 km in Arguis where we will have a new tunnel but still 1x1 with a bottle neck


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *A23:* north of Caldearenas – Alto de Monrepos 5km (< 2009 to Early April 2019) [1st c/w] – ? – map
> *A23:* north of Caldearenas – Alto de Monrepos 5km (< 2009 to Late April 2019) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


The first carriageway (only for northbound traffic) has opened today. :banana: It's *6.3 km* long.

The second carriageway (for southbound traffic), which will open next month, is *8.5 km* long, as it reuses the old national road (while the northbound carriageway uses a newly-built alignment, including a 3 km long tunnel).

Some pictures of the new section:



Andrex1986 said:


> Buenas:
> 
> Hoy por la mañana, el primer conductor estrena en el interior de los dos túneles de Monrepós 7 y 8, el video es alucinante, véaselos ustedes mismos:
> 
> https://www.heraldo.es/multimedia/v...vesar-los-tuneles-de-monrepos-buah-que-chulo/
> 
> Mientras, en el interior del túnel mas largo de Monrepós, allí sale otro video que venia del primer conductor:
> 
> https://www.heraldo.es/multimedia/v...nuevos-tramos-de-la-autovia-a-23-en-monrepos/
> 
> Así que, no hay sentido bidireccional, porque le sigue circulando como autovía... Veo en la nota de prensa de ayer del Ministerio de Fomento, comenta de que el próximo día 25 de Marzo, va a haber afecciones del trafico de la carretera N-330, que actualmente esta circulando de único sentido a Nueno… ¿va a cerrar la carretera N-330 durante 3 semanas para el reacondicionamiento o podría circularse en ella, con limitación obligada de 80 km/h?. Es algo que no comprendo lo que anuncia en la nota de prensa de ayer...
> 
> Bien, por otro lado, hay una mala noticia sobre el tramo Puente la Reina-Santa Cilia, que no va a inaugurar en este año 2019, sino, nuevo retraso a principios del año 2020 …, lo confirma en esta noticia: https://www.radiohuesca.com/comarca...entre-jaca-y-santa-cilia-21032019-122216.HTML
> 
> Bueno, lo que si estará listo es el tramo Santa Cilia-Jaca que podría inaugurarse entre finales de verano o principios de otoño del año 2019 (que casualidad, coincidirá con la apertura de la calzada sentido Nueno en Arguis de la autovía A-23)…
> 
> Le paso las 4 fotos mas chulas del Twitter oficial del Ministerio de Fomento:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=157611468&postcount=461





MichiH said:


> *A23:* south of Arguis – Congosto de Isuela 2km (2007 to Fall 2019) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


The first carriageway has opened today for all traffic, still in a 1+1 configuration. I reckon you should add it as well to the opening list, because it's a completely new alignment (and the neighboring section, opened in 2014, was also opened in two stages with the same configuration and it's included twice on the list :lol. The second carriageway (again, reusing the existing national road) will actually open in Autumn.

Source: https://www.fomento.gob.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/mie-20032019-1147



MichiH said:


> *A21:* Puente la Reina de Jaca – Santa Cilia 7.2km (? to Late 2019) – ? – map


Delayed to early 2020.

Source: https://www.radiohuesca.com/comarca...entre-jaca-y-santa-cilia-21032019-122216.html


----------



## KRX_69

*Madrid - Zaragoza (08.03.2019)*


A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Ajalvir by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Torrejón de Ardoz by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Alcalá de Henares by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída R-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Azuqueca de Henares by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Cabanillas del Campo by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Guadalajara by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Tórtola de Henares by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Torre del Burgo by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Brihuega by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Ledanca by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Torremocha del Campo by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Sauca by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Alcolea del Pinar by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


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## KRX_69

A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Esteras de Medinaceli by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Medinaceli by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Medinaceli by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída A-15 Soria by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Lodares de Medinaceli by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Arcos de Jalón by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Montuega de Soria by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Santa Maria de Huerta by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Granja de San Pedro by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Monreal de Ariza by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Ariza by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


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## KRX_69

A-2 - saída Cetina by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Contamina by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Ateca by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Calatayud by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Calatayud by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Calatayud by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Calatorao by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Épila by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída La Muela by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Base Aérea by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída feria de Zaragoza by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-2 - saída Z-40 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

:cheers:


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## alserrod

In the Alcolea del Pinar exit you can see HSL in the right. You will not see it until somewhere between Terrer and Calatayud where it crosses over motorway. Later, if you know where it is, it will be possible to glance sometimes.

Further, in the last before picture, that's railway by-pass in Zaragoza (there are four or five non-stop Madrid-Barcelona trains that use those tracks. The rest of them go via city centre)


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## alserrod

I quote myself about A-23. I guess third or fourth thread where I write about it. If google translator doesn't run, ask for any detail




alserrod said:


> Las fotos de google street view son de hace casi cuatro años
> 
> Aclaramos
> 
> Desde hoy, en el congosto de Arguís, todo el tráfico está pasando por aquí
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@42.305...4!1sqKopn7EDvMTnpi-Ygqj5Wg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> en doble dirección (1x1)
> 
> y este tramo (fotografiado en julio 2018, ya estaba en obras entonces) está cerrado por unos cuantos meses para adaptarlo (y repasar a estructura) a dos carriles sentido sur
> https://www.google.com/maps/@42.302...4!1s9gKE2WyWbr6pcxBiKvpqOA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> Desde otoño se abrirá y por lo tanto ya será 2x2 en esta zona
> 
> 
> Por su parte
> en la cara norte del Monrepós,
> 
> sentido Jaca
> 
> Es aquí donde empieza el pedazo túnel de 2,95km sentido norte y todo el tráfico ha sido desviado por allí
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@42.335...4!1s0ak8ZY6QCZoyWYjowotG6g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> Sentido sur tienen que adaptar los enlaces donde se reaprovecha la calzada y donde hay tramos nuevos así como cambiar la señalización. Por ello subirá por el trazado actual aunque con dos carriles. Eso sí, precaución pues puede haber limitaciones de velocidad.
> Estimación, tres semanas


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## CNGL

I mostly ignore KRX_69's posts as they are just a bunch of photos without description. I won't doing so this time, as he has gone right into my domains, from Ariza onwards. I went on a day trip to Madrid a few days ago, and I thought we would go on A-2 (I haven't been on it past Monreal de Ariza since 2011) but finally we went on the most hated thing by me: The high-speed train.


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## verreme

So it looks like this summer the whole Monrepós pass will be a motorway . Good to see that works tendered and started in the 2007 follie are being finished little by little, even with years of delays. Now the only remaining stretch to Sabiñánigo is a rather pathetic 9 km which is not even tendered and will be a big bottleneck on winter weekends.

IMO until Jaca doesn't have a bypass road A-132 via Ayerbe will still be a tempting option for the Huesca-Pamplona route. I like driving too much.


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *GI632:* Bergara – Antzuola 5.3km (2010 to 28th March 2019) – ? – map


Finally opening on March 26th, 2 days earlier than expected.

By the way, GI-632 will be renamed *A-636*. That means we have a new numbering pattern in Gipuzkoa province, similiar to the one used in Castilla y León (A-XXX motorways).

Source: https://www.noticiasdegipuzkoa.eus/...tovia-de-deskarga-se-abrira-el-proximo-martes


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## arctic_carlos

*Ma-30*



MichiH said:


> *Ma30:* north of Son Ferriol-North – Son Ferriol-South (Ma15) ~2km (2015 to March 2019) – ? – map


It opened on March 9th! We missed it.










Source: https://www.ultimahora.es/noticias/...tora-entre-carretera-manacor-son-ferriol.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

arctic_carlos said:


> By the way, GI-632 will be renamed *A-636*. That means we have a new numbering pattern in Gipuzkoa province, similiar to the one used in Castilla y León (A-XXX motorways).


It's likely based on N-636, which is in Bizkaia province. I suppose they eventually meant to connect both autovías, which would probably require a longer tunnel at the provincial border.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> I like driving too much.


Me too, and I have two weeks off at the end of April so I'm thinking about driving down to southern Spain.

But I realized it is partially during Semana Santa. Do you know if campsites in rural areas are going to be packed in that week? I normally never reserve a spot because I often don't have a pre-planned itinerary. But I've never been to Spain during Semana Santa before.


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## alserrod

A-132 has a cool mountainscape and next time you drive through, try to have a little detour to Loarre castle. It is the most visited monument in Aragon out of main cities and towns... and it really deserves it (castle, just 12 km away from road).

And the iron bridge is a really icon in the area. It is proposed to have a second bridge to have different lanes, but remaining current one direction Pamplona.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Me too, and I have two weeks off at the end of April so I'm thinking about driving down to southern Spain.
> 
> But I realized it is partially during Semana Santa. Do you know if campsites in rural areas are going to be packed in that week? I normally never reserve a spot because I often don't have a pre-planned itinerary. But I've never been to Spain during Semana Santa before.


Holy Week . Which by the way according to actual full moon and equinox it should have been this week (Astronomical Easter on 24 March), yet somehow it ended at the next full moon in April (Western Easter on 21 April).


----------



## Little

CNGL said:


> Holy Week . Which by the way according to actual full moon and equinox it should have been this week (Astronomical Easter on 24 March), yet somehow it ended at the next full moon in April (Western Easter on 21 April).


Sorry for the off topic, but yesterday at home we talked about it. It seems that the equinox can be defined in different ways which determines that it can be defined between 20 March and 22 March. To define the eclesial dates, it's used a method that concluded that the equinox was yesterday, instead of Wednesday. And that's the reason of the change of dates.


----------



## g.spinoza

Little said:


> Sorry for the off topic, but yesterday at home we talked about it. It seems that the equinox can be defined in different ways which determines that it can be defined between 20 March and 22 March.


There is one definition of equinox, and it's the moment when the Sun is at the Zenith over the equator. The date shift happens because the year length is not equal to an integer number of days.


----------



## alserrod

I have posted this list about tunnels over 200m in the region of Aragon


Somport 8608m
Bielsa 3070m
Caldearenas 2995m
Petralba 2598m
Monrepós II y II 1484m
Llauset 1450m
Arguís 900m
Campo 740m
Cotefablo 683
Monrepós III 650m
Escarrilla 525m
Monroyo 495m
Nueno 494m
Escusaguas 394m
Consolación 290m
El Frasno I y II 260m
Olvena 5 246m
Morata 222m (privado)
San Just 220m


and there are four planned in Ventamillo gorge, longest would be about 900m. Two more ones in the N-230 to Viella (partially in Aragon or fully in Aragon. More than 1 km long each one.)

There are some roads with several lined-up tunnels but short ones. Only Olvena5 is longest than 200m

As you can see, five out of those tunnels have been opened in the last 15 days


----------



## Little

g.spinoza said:


> There is one definition of equinox, and it's the moment when the Sun is at the Zenith over the equator. The date shift happens because the year length is not equal to an integer number of days.


There are different ways of considering this moment of the equinox, the Vatican has its own and that's the way it runs the liturgical dates. If you don't like it, go to Rome and get an appointment with the pope and talk with him. There are a lot of information on Internet about this topic. But, please, don't treat me as an ignorant.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> ^^ Bear in mind that this is only a very preliminary step.


Interesting, in the Netherlands or Germany this would be considered the final and most important step in the process of getting a project approved and shovel-ready. 

Do you think this project will be called off? 

There were also plans to upgrade sections of N-I between Burgos and Miranda de Ebro. Which is now pretty pointless since AP-1 became toll-free.


----------



## Aokromes

ChrisZwolle said:


> Interesting, in the Netherlands or Germany this would be considered the final and most important step in the process of getting a project approved and shovel-ready.
> 
> Do you think this project will be called off?
> 
> There were also plans to upgrade sections of N-I between Burgos and Miranda de Ebro. Which is now pretty pointless since AP-1 became toll-free.


well, the N-I between towns is quite bad on some places.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> Interesting, in the Netherlands or Germany this would be considered the final and most important step in the process of getting a project approved and shovel-ready.
> 
> Do you think this project will be called off?
> 
> There were also plans to upgrade sections of N-I between Burgos and Miranda de Ebro. Which is now pretty pointless since AP-1 became toll-free.


"Información pública" is not even the final step of planning. The final design has not even started and what they have published is the selected route, as well as the land that will be impacted. In order for the final design (_proyecto_) to be tendered, money has to be allocated for it -and that can even trigger a discussion in the Parliament. When the design is finished, construction has to be tendered. Of course, tenders can be cancelled, or the Ministry can simply not choose any of the offers. That can happen in both tenders -the one for the _proyecto_ and the one for the actual construction.

Elections are near and every gesture of Fomento other than actually opening a road for business can be seen as a political stunt. For more than a decade, every now and then there are news about A-7 in northern Castellón province but the motorway hasn't gained an inch since the completion of CV-10 in 2011. My theory is that the only purpose of these "mock-up" projects is both to keep the employees at Fomento busy and to have something for politicians to promise when the elections are near.

The rest of A-7 north of Castellón province (it should meet B-40 in Abrera!) is more or less in the same situation, though the stretch in the press release is the only that has got through the _información pública_ phase. B-40 is also stalled: it even got the environmental approval, but it expired.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ A short section of A-7 north of Tarragona, in Torredembarra, is in a very advanced design phase, if I’m not mistaken. Its purpose is to link the Tarragona bypass with AP-7, so it will be probably built even if AP-7 becomes toll-free, as it will be the northern access to Tarragona coming from Barcelona.


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## arctic_carlos

*A-23*

A very recent video of A-23 between Lanave and Nueno. It shows the ongoing works between Caldearenas and Monrepós summit to upgrade the old N-330 so it becomes the southbound carriageway. The brand-new northbound carriageway is not seen, but you can have an idea of the different heights of both carriageways... 

Maybe in 20 years they'll build a new tube of the Caldearenas tunnel for the southbound carriageway, and what's going to open next month as the southbound carriageway (old N-330) is abandoned, who knows (something similar was done in Despeñaperros pass in the past).



Andrex1986 said:


>


----------



## Stuu

Aokromes said:


> well, the N-I between towns is quite bad on some places.


I just had a look at this on streetview - it seems to be almost entirely a super 2, which bits are bad?


----------



## alserrod

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.953...4!1sZCwIUZ6k5YwOnQWaV8MCGA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> "Información pública" is not even the final step of planning. The final design has not even started and what they have published is the selected route, as well as the land that will be impacted. In order for the final design (_proyecto_) to be tendered, money has to be allocated for it -and that can even trigger a discussion in the Parliament. When the design is finished, construction has to be tendered. Of course, tenders can be cancelled, or the Ministry can simply not choose any of the offers. That can happen in both tenders -the one for the _proyecto_ and the one for the actual construction.


I see.

This is very different in the Netherlands: they don't start plan approval procedures unless funding is allocated for the project. This avoids the problem you describe: politicians start plan approval just for exposure and votes, without actual funding committed to the project. 

If they start the plan approval in the Netherlands there is a near-100% chance it will get built. A project is very unlikely to not be tendered, since funding is already allocated. I think this is the same in most of Northwestern/Northern Europe. Except perhaps in Germany, where plan approval doesn't seem to be tied to a sure funding source.


----------



## KRX_69

*Salamanca - V. V. da Raia (10.03.2019)*


SA-20 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


SA-20 - saída A-66 Cáceres by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


SA-20 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-62 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-62 - saída Salamanca by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-62 - saída Salamanca by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-62 - saída A-66 Zamora by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 - saída Castellanos de Villiquera by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 - saída Valdunciel by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 - saída El Cubo de Tierra del Vino by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 - saída Corrales by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 - saída Morales del Vino by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 - saída Morales del Vino by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 - saída Zamora by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 - saída A-11 Zamora by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 - saída A-11 Zamora by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 - saída Zamora by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


----------



## KRX_69

A-66 - saída A-11 Zamora by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 - saída Roales by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 - saída Montamarta by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-66 - saída San Cebrián de Castro by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


N-631 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


N-631 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


N-631 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


N-631 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


N-631 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


N-631 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


N-631 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


N-631 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


N-631 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 - saída Palacios de Sanabria by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


----------



## KRX_69

A-56 - saída Puebla de Sanabria by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 - saída Requejo by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 - saída Padornelo by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 - saída Lubián by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 - saída Chanos by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 - saída Vilavella by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 - saída Vilavella by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 - saída Erosa by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 - saída Fumaces by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 - saída Verín by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 - saída A-75 Chaves (P) by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-52 - saída A-75 Chaves (P) by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-75 - saída Mandín by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-75 - saída Mandín by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-75 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-75 - saída V. V. da Raia by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


A-75 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

:cheers:


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> Blue A-636 signs, interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >> https://www.noticiasdegipuzkoa.eus/...r-hacer-el-doble-de-viajes-en-el-mismo-tiempo


Gipuzkoa has been rationalizing their road numbering system. They also renumbered GI-121 to the much more logical A-15 when they finished it. As for A-636, it's a move towards connecting it with Bizkaian BI-636. However, this corridor will not be completed anytime soon, as Bizkaia has yet to tender the most complex stretch (Kanpazar pass). This corridor is vital for Mondragon, the world's largest cooperative business.



arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ A short section of A-7 north of Tarragona, in Torredembarra, is in a very advanced design phase, if I’m not mistaken. Its purpose is to link the Tarragona bypass with AP-7, so it will be probably built even if AP-7 becomes toll-free, as it will be the northern access to Tarragona coming from Barcelona.


Works should be tendered this year, as the _proyecto_ is ready. We'll see, but it looks like this is no "ghost" project and there are serious plans to build it no matter who is in charge after the elections.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I see.
> 
> This is very different in the Netherlands: they don't start plan approval procedures unless funding is allocated for the project. This avoids the problem you describe: politicians start plan approval just for exposure and votes, without actual funding committed to the project.
> 
> If they start the plan approval in the Netherlands there is a near-100% chance it will get built. A project is very unlikely to not be tendered, since funding is already allocated. I think this is the same in most of Northwestern/Northern Europe. Except perhaps in Germany, where plan approval doesn't seem to be tied to a sure funding source.


It would be interesting to list the pros and cons of every model since this is something most people are unaware of when they vote.


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> 26 March 2019
> 
> A 5 kilometer segment of the Autovía de Deskarga (A-636, formerly GI-632) opens to traffic in Basque Country, Spain today. It extends the motorway from Antzuola to near Bergara.
> 
> >> https://www.eitb.eus/es/noticias/ec...ara-la-autovia-deskarga-abrira-26-marzo-2019/



Buer Mir has uploaded a driving video of this. The new section starts at 9:15.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFnLOcY39mk

And a beautiful picture of the A-23 near Barracas, in the Valencian region.

"Estelas" by Javier Perea, en Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-1a*

Interesting, I wasn't aware that there is an A-1a, it's the old alignment of A-1 through the town of El Molar north of Madrid. It was bypassed by a more modern alignment in 2009, but the old route still exists.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Tenerife*

TF-1 near Santa Cruz de Tenerife, 1974 and 2018.


----------



## alserrod

Amazing... I drove there last summer.

BTW, TF-5 to airport was one out of first motorways in Spain to acoid crossing San Cristobal to reach Santa Cruz from airport


----------



## alserrod

Amazing... I drove there last summer.

BTW, TF-5 to airport was one out of first motorways in Spain to acoid crossing San Cristobal to reach Santa Cruz from airport


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-11*



MichiH said:


> *A11:* El Burgo de Osma-East – Santiuste 9.4km (2009/10 to 2019) – ? – map


Drone footage of the new section, which will be opened to traffic in the next weeks:


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-33*



MichiH said:


> *A33:* Caudete-East – Caudete (A31) 2.5km (? to Late 2019) – ? – map


Let's welcome another partial opening (the third one on the short section between A-31 and A-35). *For now it's only the first carriageway, for northbound traffic*. It's 3.2 km long.

Official press release, in Spanish:



> *El Ministerio de Fomento pone en servicio el ramal de conexión Alicante (A-31)- Valencia (A-33) de la variante de La Font de la Figuera*
> 
> 04-04-2019
> El Ministerio de Fomento ha puesto en servicio el ramal de conexión Alicante (A-31)-Valencia (A-33) de la variante de La Font de la Figuera.
> 
> Se trata de un tramo de 3,2 km de longitud que permite conectar directamente el tráfico que, procedente de Alicante por la A-31, se dirige a Valencia por la A-33, sustituyendo al ramal existente en el enlace de conexión de la A-31 con la N-344.
> 
> Características técnicas
> La calzada dispone de características de autovía, con dos carriles para el sentido del tráfico puesto en servicio e incluye tanto un ramal directo unidireccional de 1,2 km como 2 km adicionales de nuevo tronco de autovía en sentido Valencia.
> 
> Está previsto que sobre la nueva calzada circulen unos 7.500 vehículos diarios sentido Valencia, de los cuales casi la mitad serán vehículos pesados. Con este nuevo tramo ahora puesto en servicio, estos vehículos con sentido Valencia reducirán su recorrido de 5 km (la mayoría de ellos por carretera convencional) a 2 km y el tiempo de recorrido se reducirá de 5 a 2 minutos respecto al tramo que se sustituye.
> 
> Con esta nueva apertura, son ya 12 km de autovía sentido Valencia y 8 km sentido Alicante los que se han puesto en servicio dentro de las obras de la Variante de la Font de la Figuera.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.fomento.gob.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/jue-04042019-1620


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Alicante > Valencia connector doesn't cross the high-speed rail, while the Valencia > Alicante connector does cross it, requiring longer construction time. In fact, it crosses it twice, but the second one is an underpass with the high-speed rail bridge already being designed for it. However it also has to cross A-31, so southbound traffic requires more bridgework.

Any idea when Valencia > Alicante could open? The most recent imagery in Google Earth is from July 2016, which only shows earthworks. 

There's quite a bit going on in that area, two motorways, a large rail junction, a solar panel farm, a prison, a truck stop. All in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## alserrod

Hi Chris,

Economically the way is this one following

- each region manages a number of roads. Usually all regional and local ones. National roads are managed by the State (Fomento). Regions can offer a regional tolled motorway (as regional motorways they exists only in Galicia and Catalonia, and of course Basque country and Navarra, after Soller tunnel is free).
Reason why each road is for a region or isn't... is a nightmare, really. For instance, N-420 from Cordoba in Andalucia to Tarragona in Catalonia, belongs to Castilla La Mancha (as CM-420) in the middle of the road.

- all taxes are payed to the State EXCEPT if you live in Navarra or Basque Country. You will pay taxes to your province (not to the region, Basque citizens will pay to their provincial government)

- State calculates how much money they must fund to regions according to number of issues to deal (building hospitals, schools, funds for people working which it is the bigges amount and so on. Here you may add roads)

- In that amount it is included money for roads managed by regions. Each region can choose for more money for roads, less for other buildings or conversely

- In the case of Basque country and Navarra, it will be conversely. They will pay to State according to issues dealed by central government in those territories (it is a 19th century system)

Hope it helps


PS. Navarra has only AP-68
Basque country has all their roads and motorways. The special case is N-629
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2258513,-3.4682252,14z
The part inside Basque country must be maintaned by them but it is really State who works on all the road and later Basque country will pay according to the kilometres inside their territory

In the rest of regions, I guess there are no exemptions, N-XXX belongs to state, the rest to regions. Sometimes a road is shifted from State to region.
In my homecity this road is really A-120 from A-2 to airport after a big logistic area was built
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6545301,-1.0150024,14z
Therefore, N-125 starts on airport and first km is km.3

Balearic and Canary islands manage all their roads (they are managed by island government... AFAIK)

Ceuta and Melilla roads are managed by State and streets by city government. Where it starts a road and where it ends a street... it is sometimes matter of opinion


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*EX-100 / N-523*

Extremadura autonomous road EX-100 will also turned back to the national government, who will apply the old number N-523.

EX-100 connects the two provincial capitals: Badajoz and Cáceres. 

The press release also talks about a possible A-58 in this corridor. 

>> https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/vie-26042019-1610


----------



## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> The press release also talks about a possible A-58 in this corridor.


I would have thought that one of the _very_ few obviously missing motorways in Spain was from Badajoz (actually Merida) east to Ciudad Real and the A-58 seems to be too far north to fill that role.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-43 is supposed to fill that role. However it would travel long distances through very sparsely populated areas. Though it would fill a gap in east-west routes, from Portugal & Extremadura to the southern Meseta and Valencia. 

Traffic volumes are too low to justify an investment of hundreds of millions of euros though. There are very long stretches of N-430 that carry only 1300 - 1500 vehicles per day.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Well, sooner or later A-43 will be completed. Its northern equivalent (A-11, connecting Portugal with the Ebro valley) will be probably a reality between 2025 and 2030, so the difference between the northern and the southern _mesetas_ will be too obvious. And let's not forget the missing A-40 section between A-42 and A-4, which would also partially fulfill that role, connecting A-5 with A-3.

By the way, A-81 (Badajoz - Córdoba - Granada motorway) also has chances of being built. It's not exactly an alternative to A-43, but it can compete against it in terms of funding. It was recently reactivated:

https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/mie-24102018-1715


----------



## alserrod

I remember when first works on A-43. Traffic was lower even!!

Sometimes you need to have a corridor point to point and will see how some long journeys would take a different route

For instance, nowadays people is going from Madrid to Seville via Merida (better motorway and 3 km less providing centre to centre). 2 decades ago no one would take this route


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N-621*

N-621 through the Desfiladero de la Hermida at the Asturias and Cantabria border will be upgraded to higher standards. The 17.2 km upgrade is estimated at € 96.5 million, which is some serious money for a national road upgrade.


----------



## alserrod

PRC (Cantabrian regional party) has got one deputy for parliament. He will be E.Revilla, former Cantabria president (belonging to PSOE). He's open to talk with P.Sanchez to make possible to make him president (let's remember, Spain had general elections last Sunday) but before asking he has said "what about N-621 and high speed train!!!!"

I have read so many news about N-621... and crossed several times.

About options, there's a sample not far from there (Chris, write it for your next journey)

Cain road

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.208...4!1sBmUDI9_MqzernZxXawx-cA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It is the second option (and BTW, guess how it was before 2007. It was so narrow without being enlarged!!!!)


----------



## alserrod

And about A-22 near Huesca, works keep on. As expected to open in 2021


----------



## arctic_carlos

*AG-46*



MichiH said:


> *AG46:* Cangas – Meira 3.9km (August 2017 to August 2019) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


Early June 2019.

Source: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...ira-trafico-junio/00031554305544961743888.htm


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *N-II:* Terradelles – Vilafreser (AP7) 3.3km (June 2015 to April 2019) – ? – map





arctic_carlos said:


> April 2019.
> 
> Source: https://www.diaridegirona.cat/comarques/2018/10/07/puigdemont-ha-mal-president-catalunya/939145.html


It was announced in January that the section should be opened this spring:



> Afirma que durante la próxima primavera se inaugurará el tramo desdoblado de Vilademuls-Orriols de la N-II


I guess it might be opened "soon"


----------



## Highway89

A little update on the *A-21* thanks to Vertical and matute at Nevasport forum. In order to see the whole set of pictures, please visit the Nevasport forum.

https://www.nevasport.com/phorum/read.php?75,501534,4031772#msg-4031772



Vertical said:


> Santa Cilia junction, looking east towards Jaca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking west towards Puente La Reina de Jaca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bridge over the river Aragón Subordán





https://www.nevasport.com/phorum/read.php?75,501534,4031736#msg-4031736



matute said:


> Bridge over the river Aragón (Junction Jaca-West)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Áscara junction
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Santa Cilia junction
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bridge over the river Aragón Subordán


----------



## alserrod

They say to open in early 2020 but it seems that part can be open this summer (half of works)

Pity is... there are u/c only those km. 4 more ones besides Navarra and A-23 in Arguís remain till autumn. Nothing else at the moment


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-11*



MichiH said:


> *A11:* Venta Nueva – La Mallona 6km (2009/10 to May 2019) – ? – map


Opening next week.

Source: https://www.lavanguardia.com/politi...ovia-del-duero-en-la-proxima-legislatura.html


----------



## Ale92MilanoSpA_

*A-49 SE-30 A-92 A-45 A-7 MA-20 MA-23*
Driving through Andalucía (Spain) from Sevilla to Málaga 9.07.2018 Timelapse x4


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *A11:* Venta Nueva – La Mallona 6km (2009/10 to May 2019) – ? – map


It didn't open last week, but it should open before the end of this month.



MichiH said:


> *A54:* Lavacolla – Arzua-West 18.5km (? to 2019) – ? – map


Opening on Friday, May 24th. :banana:

Source: https://www.fomento.gob.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/lun-20052019-1144


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-11*

A 6 kilometer segment of A-11 between La Mallona and Venta Nueva in Soria province is scheduled to be opened to traffic on 24 May. It does not yet connect with other autovía segments. 










A satellite view. Construction was halted in 2010, then restarted in 2016. 









View from the adjacent N-122









Fomento: https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/mie-22052019-1114


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Hopefully, when the neighboring section between Santiuste and Venta Nueva (17 km) opens next year, there will be a continuous A-11 segment between Langa de Duero and La Mallona (60 km), which will be extended to 100 km when construction of the currently suspended section between Langa de Duero and Aranda de Duero is completed, conencting with the existing Aranda de Duero A-11 bypass, opened in 2015.


----------



## Highway89

Some pictures of the recently opened stretches from Fomento's twitter account:

*A-54*


















Still using dashed shoulder lines









*A-11*
Solid shoulder lines and thicker center lines.
































Highway89 said:


> The _Consejo de Ministros_ has authorized Fomento to tender the project of the A-12 between Santo Domingo de la Calzada and Villamayor del Río.
> 
> Length: 14.4 km. The first 4 km will be a duplication of the existing N-120.
> Estimated cost: € 97.7 M (80.7+VAT) (€ 6.8 M/km)
> 3 junctions (Santo Domingo Oeste, Grañón, and Bascuñana), 3 viaducts, 6 overpasses, 6 underpasses.
> 
> This stretch goes next to the _Camino de Santiago_ pilgrimage route (World Heritage), which will need to be refurbished too.
> 
> https://nuevecuatrouno.com/2019/04/12/autovia-camino-a12-consejo-ministros-licitacion/
> 
> From what the piece of news says, I reckon the route will be something like this. East of Grañón if follows the N-120, as the dotted red line indicates.


Some blueprints of this project have been submitted to public information:

Anuncio de la Demarcación de Carreteras del Estado en la Rioja de información pública y convocatoria para el levantamiento de Actas Previas a la Ocupación de los bienes y derechos afectados por las obras del Proyecto de Construcción “Autovía A-12, del Camino de Santiago. Tramo: Santo Domingo de la Calzada – Villamayor del Río, Provincias de La Rioja y Burgos. Clave del Proyecto 12 – LO– 5440.”


Keep in mind that these are meant for land occupation/acquisition, so they aren't readable as well as we'd like.

Blueprints are often orientated so that they're read from left to right from the starting point, which means the North was pointing downwards in this case. Therefore I've turned them upside down so that the North points upwards.



1. Beginning









2. Junction with LR-201 and N-120a east of Santo Domingo - https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4514776,-2.9768587,1019m/data=!3m1!1e3









10. The future junction at Grañón will be closer to the village - my previous drawing was wrong here









11.









15. Wildlife crossing, I guess?









18. Bridge over the river Reláchigo









19. Junction Redecilla del Camino / Castildelgado









20. Castildelgado gets a new bypass "for free"









21. Bridge over the river San Julián and crossing with the current N-120









24.









25. End near Villamayor del Río, some 5 km away from Belorado - https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4334166,-3.125561,1441m/data=!3m1!1e3









The rest of the pictures are available here:
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=159520507&postcount=1123

Or here:

https://imgur.com/a/HUFDBy8


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-11*

Construction of the A-11 section between Tudela de Duero and Olivares de Duero has been tendered today. It's 20.2 km long and it has an estimated cost of €105.5M.










https://www.fomento.gob.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/jue-30052019-1359


----------



## arctic_carlos

Two new motorway sections will open next week (probably on Friday, June 21) in Spain:



MichiH said:


> *N-II:* Terradelles – Vilafreser (AP7) 3.3km (June 2015 to Spring 2019) – ? – map


Source: https://www.lavanguardia.com/ocio/v...edinya-y-orriols-listo-antes-de-san-juan.html

Photo gallery: https://www.diaridegirona.cat/multi...eballs-finals-la-2-entre-medinya-orriols.html



MichiH said:


> *AG46:* Cangas – Meira 3.9km (August 2017 to Late June 2019) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


Source: https://www.farodevigo.es/gran-vigo/2019/06/09/ultiman-trabajos-corredor-o-morrazo/2120622.html


----------



## alserrod

Not a main road but a nice road to save time

Aragonese government is to enlarge A-121 between Ricla and Fuendejalon. They will shift from a 7,5 wide road to a 10m wide road(1.5+3.5+3.5+1.5m).

It is located here

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.598...0&yaw=320&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

It is in the middle of nowhere. There aren't villages in the middle and traffic just point to point is small... but it has a lot of trucks due to they save time from Pamplona to Madrid (avoiding going to Zaragoza)

They just say
(free news. It is able to be posted entirely 'cos has no copyright but it is Spanish only http://www.aragonhoy.net/index.php/mod.noticias/mem.detalle/id.244967#14-06-2019) they will work every three kilometres. This is, they will enlarge shoulders in both sides in a 3km strecht and will keep on with next 3 km.


----------



## pai nosso

*A-11 -- June of 2019*


*Zamora area*

1-


2-


3-


4-


5-


6-


7-


8-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*A-66 – June of 2019*


*Zamora » Salamanca*

1-


2-


3-


4-


5-



*Salamanca » Cáceres*

6-


7-


----------



## pai nosso

*Salamanca » Zamora*

8-


9-


10-


11-


12-


13-


14-


----------



## pai nosso

15-


16-


17-


18-


19-


20-


21-


----------



## pai nosso

22-


23-


24-


25-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*A-62 – June of 2019*


*Salamanca » Ciudad Rodrigo*

1-


2-


3-



*Salamanca » Valladolid*

4-


5-


6-


7-


8-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*SA-20 – June of 2019*


*Salamanca ring road*

1-


2-


3-


4-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## Highway89

pai nosso said:


> *SA-20 – June of 2019*
> 
> 
> *Salamanca ring road*
> 
> 3-
> 
> 
> 
> Source: pai nosso


That's strange. I thought urban roads (XX-XX) had their own mileage, but this one seems to follow the mileage of the N-501.



On a side note, the works on the A-62/A25 at the Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso border crossing are almost finished on the Spanish side (satellite picture from 06-06-2019):










As regards the situation at the San Miguel del Pedroso border (A24/N-122), it is the opposite: The motorway is finished on the Portuguese side, but there are no signs of the Spanish A-11... I'm afraid we'll have to wait for at least 10 years.


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## pai nosso

Highway89 said:


> On a side note, the works on the A-62/A25 at the Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso border crossing are almost finished on the Spanish side (satellite picture from 06-06-2019):


Thanks for the info of the A-62, the portuguese side will take a while.




Highway89 said:


> As regards the situation at the San Miguel del Pedroso border (A24/N-122), it is the opposite: The motorway is finished on the Portuguese side, but there are no signs of the Spanish A-11... I'm afraid we'll have to wait for at least 10 years.



I get it that it is more important from the spanish perspective to finish the rest of the sections of the A-11, but i got to say it that with the construction of the Marão Tunnel and all of the A4, the portuguese trucks from the northern region all goes by that route, and travelling on the N-122 behind a "procesión" of trucks, is not easy:lol::lol:, and also passing Alcanizes.


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## alserrod

I am afraid, I am not sure if 10 years would be enough for A-11. It is a pity because it is the direct route between Barcelona and Porto, for instance


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## pai nosso

*AV-20 -- June of 2019*


*Ávila ring road*

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## pai nosso

*A-50 – June of 2019


Salamanca » Ávila*

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## pai nosso

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## pai nosso

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17-Ávila



*Ávila » Salamanca*

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## pai nosso

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28-New Rest Area


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## pai nosso

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## pai nosso

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## arctic_carlos

Highway89 said:


> On a side note, the works on the A-62/A25 at the Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso border crossing are almost finished on the Spanish side (satellite picture from 06-06-2019):


I guess the new A-62 section on the Spanish side could be opened before the Portuguese A25 is completed, as there's an interchange right before the border. However, it looks like the completed section would only be useful to traffic going towards Aldea del Obispo, as cross-border traffic would still need to use the current border crossing.

But what about all traffic using the northern bypass of Fuentes de Oñoro and Vilar Formoso - currently only used by trucks - instead of the current border crossing for cars and buses? Both Portugal and Spain are in Schengen, so I don't see why those large facilities are needed nowadays...


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## Highway89

I think it's the resizing that makes those photos look awful - just note how those cables aren't straight lines but appear to be "broken" and blurry.

There is a number of old narrow bridges still being in use, some of them along important national roads.

One of the worst that I know is this one just west of Belorado along the N-120.








https://www.google.com/maps/@42.417...4!1smEPA4BNDku7qbptTvXmZeQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

This one in Villanueva de Cameros (La Rioja) along the N-111 isn't as narrow but it has two sharp bends at each end of the bridge. That house must be one of the most (in)famous in La Rioja. I think it's abandoned nowadays.








https://www.google.com/maps/@42.166...324.75858&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


The N-631 is a former C- road but it's an important shortcut between the A-52 and the A-66. It features 2 narrow bridges over the Agavanzal reservoir.









https://www.google.com/maps/@41.977...4!1sdxbZD5QV1H13pTxbkU1q9g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The viaduct in the background is the new HSL to from Madrid to Galicia. Fomento could have used a little bit of money to upgrade these two narrow bridges...









https://www.google.com/maps/@42.417...4!1smEPA4BNDku7qbptTvXmZeQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

This bridge along the N-623 used to be a source of trouble too, but since the A-67 was built, most traffic takes the N-627 instead, so traffic intensities have decreased a lot.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8012551,-3.7691296,169m/data=!3m1!1e3


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## alserrod

I cross N-120 in Belorado several times a year.

Coming from Burgos there's a radar that, nowadays it has non-sense because a new roundabout was built (and all drivers reduce compulsory speed).

Two decades ago, all pedestrians (few ones, there aren't houses beyond that brigde) had to cross the road. Nowadays there's a small bridge


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-334 Autovía del Almanzora*

The _Junta de Andalucía_ has awarded a € 25.3 million contract to construct a 3.3 kilometer segment of A-334 (Autovía del Almanzora) in Almería province. It is an extension of the existing motorway to AL-7106, just short of A-7. It has a deadline of 30 months (January 2022).

>> http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/pres...o/obra/ElCucadorLaConcepcion/autoviaalmanzora


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## arctic_carlos

*SE-30 & SE-40*

News from Seville. The "Quinto Centenario" bridge (SE-30) will be affected by major reparation works in the coming months and there will be important lane closures. As a result, an alternative itinerary has been envisaged for long-distance traffic going from A-4 (Cádiz) to A-49 and A-66:



Jujo said:


> Las obras de urgencia en los tirantes del Quinto Centenario harán cerrar este puente durante meses con los que el estado acaba de desembolsar una partida de urgencia para construir un itinerario alternativo a todos el inmenso tráfico que pasa por esta vía de la SE-30.
> Y aquí está lo relacionado con la SE-40, que esta alternativa (provisional) unirá la SE-40 con la SE-30...............................................


As you can see, the idea is to use an unopened 2 km section of SE-40, between the A-4 interchange and the river Guadaíra. That short section, part of the controversial river crossing (nobody knows whether the planned tunnel will be finally replaced by a bridge), was quite advanced when construction was suspended.

Needless to say, in order for this alternative to make sense, they should first open the SE-40 section between Dos Hermanas and A-4, which is still delayed and should have opened a long time ago.


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## Highway89

The Spanish Tribunal Supremo has annulled the Royal Decree that forbade heavy vehicles on the N-232/N-124 in La Rioja and forced them to take the AP-68 (tolled motorway) instead.

El Supremo anula la prohibición de circular a los camiones por las carreteras convencionales de La Rioja

This means that we go back to the previous situation: Long-distance truck traffic using the national roads, while the parallel tolled motorway is almost empty


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## CNGL

Highway89 said:


> The N-631 is a former C- road but it's an important shortcut between the A-52 and the A-66. It features 2 narrow bridges over the Agavanzal reservoir.


N-631 has never been a _comarcal_ road. Before 1988, it was part of N-525 (as part of the old Madrid-Vigo road, which split from N-VI at Villacastin and went via Avila, Salamanca and Zamora). It was current N-525 between Benavente and near Santa Eulalia de Rionegro what was actually a _comarcal_ road, C-620, which extended to Becilla de Valderaduey along what is now N-610 (which in turn originally only ran between Palencia and Becilla). It appears C-620 was already the preferred route for Vigo-Madrid (the Western half) and Vigo-France (all of it) traffic, and thus the Public Works Ministry (now Fomento) chose to keep it instead of handing over to Castile and Leon.


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## ChrisZwolle

Little said:


> Fomento usually don't produce any kind of digital material.


Evidently they do produce digital material, but I don't understand why they do that in low resolution. Their maps, photos and videos look like they were created with 15 year old equipment.

They released a video of N-435 near Huelva today, at 480p.


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## Little

They don't produce this material. Maybe they are returning to those times when the constructor "was invited" to prepare this kind of material. As it was used those days, it was made with the minimum budget, and it resulted in a very low quality material. The difference between 10 years ago and today is that today there is a way to use it to show the people what you are doing.


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## ChrisZwolle

Just look at this. Surely there must be a better quality map available? It appears as if they are reducing quality on purpose?


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## sponge_bob

It could be a map licencing issue from the Spanish state mapping agency, they should use OSM from now on and be done with it.


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## ajch

^^If anyone is wondering...

its a map of the bypass of Caceres from A-58 to A-66 with a possible extension to the future expressway Badajoz-Caceres.


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## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *A21:* Santa Cilia – Jaca-West 9.0km (? to Summer 2019) – ? – map


Opening tomorrow! :banana:

Source: https://www.radiohuesca.com/comarca...cilia-de-la-autovia-a-21-10072019-126983.html


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## Highway89

Traffic growth (2018Q1-2019Q1) for _Red de Carreteras del Estado_ tolled motorways.









*AP-6 Ferrol-Tui should read AP-9. And this comes from a Galician newspaper...

Source: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...ar-fomento-peajes/00031562611646794558603.htm

The orange bar means that those motorways were bailed out by Fomento. Tolls were reduced a 30% -and they're toll-free from 12 pm to 6 am.


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## ChrisZwolle

A 24% growth on AP-41 probably means only some 150 or 200 vehicles per day in real terms. Traffic volumes on AP-41 were extremely low, there was basically almost no traffic using it, most sections carried under 900 vehicles per day.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Even if it were toll-free, traffic wouldn't increase significantly. :crazy:


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## alserrod

I guess so too


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## alserrod

Tomorrow, some km of A21 west from Jaca will be open to traffic!!!!!!!


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## CNGL

I've scheduled a road trip this afternoon in order to reclaim for the 4th time a full clinch of all non-physically tolled motorways in Aragon . A-21 in Aragon exists in two provinces, but only one _comarca_ (a division between province and municipality, mostly informal but they are full-fledged entities in Aragon and Catalonia), and this will be still true once A-21 is completed.


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## arctic_carlos

*A-21*



MichiH said:


> *A21:* Santa Cilia – Jaca-West 9.0km (? to Summer 2019) – ? – map


It has already opened to traffic. A nice video:






And the official press release: https://www.fomento.gob.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/jue-11072019-1455

By the way, the Minister also announced that, if everything goes well, its neighbouring section will also be opened this year, in November / December:



MichiH said:


> *A21:* Puente la Reina de Jaca – Santa Cilia 7.2km (? to Early 2020) – ? – map


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## ChrisZwolle

CNGL said:


> I've scheduled a road trip this afternoon in order to reclaim for the 4th time a full clinch of all non-physically tolled motorways in Aragon . A-21 in Aragon exists in two provinces, but only one _comarca_ (a division between province and municipality, mostly informal but they are full-fledged entities in Aragon and Catalonia), and this will be still true once A-21 is completed.


Maybe you can tell us the exit numbers for the new A-21


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## ChrisZwolle

A-2 confirmed. But II-N? 










And, for once, a high-definition video


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## arctic_carlos

^^ They clearly placed the red "N-II" shield upside down. :lol:


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## Highway89

It should be N-*2* anyway...

I wonder what Fomento's policy is when it comes to signposting foreign destinations. To date, I've seen:

-Country name in Spanish or Catalan: Francia/França, Portugal.
-City name in Catalan: Perpinyà
-City name in local language without country oval: Bragança (it'd be Braganza in Spanish) or Perpignan.
-City name in local language with country oval: Chaves (P).

Anyway, given that they can't even be consistent when signposting Spanish cities (Talavera vs. Talavera de la Reina vs. Talavera|de la Reina) maybe I'm asking for too much.


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## alserrod

I've seen somewhere other cases with a long town name and part of it in smaller letters


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## pai nosso

*A-52 – July of 2019


Verín » A-66 (Benavente)*


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33-Km 0



*A-66 (Benavente) » Verín *


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## pai nosso

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Source: pai nosso


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## verreme

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ They clearly placed the red "N-II" shield upside down. :lol:


God almighty :cripes:

I thought this kind of stuff didn't happen in Spain anymore.


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## CNGL

II-N? Shouldn't be that 2-N? :troll:

Anyway that section of A-2 is nowhere near me. Especially with other sections only 40 minutes away from me.


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## Eulanthe

Haven't seen it mentioned here, but the AP-7 on the Costa del Sol will become toll-free at the end of the year. It's a great piece of news, but I wonder if they won't end up having to build a 4th lane between the MA-20/AP-7-A-7 junction and Fuengirola as a result of this. It should at least relieve the A-7 considerably, especially in summer.

Hopefully they'll also construct some new junctions, such as with the A-7053 in Las Lagunas.


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## ChrisZwolle

I haven't heard about AP-7 in Costa del Sol becoming toll-free. But there has been a recent confirmation by the government that the concession of AP-7 between Tarragona and Alicante will not be extended at the end of this year. But that's not the Costa del Sol.


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## Highway89

Eulanthe said:


> Haven't seen it mentioned here, but the AP-7 on the Costa del Sol will become toll-free at the end of the year. It's a great piece of news, but I wonder if they won't end up having to build a 4th lane between the MA-20/AP-7-A-7 junction and Fuengirola as a result of this. It should at least relieve the A-7 considerably, especially in summer.
> 
> Hopefully they'll also construct some new junctions, such as with the A-7053 in Las Lagunas.


It's the AP-7 between Alicante and Tarragona that will become toll-free.

It will take many more years until the AP-7 along the Costa del Sol becomes toll-free. Concessions end in 2046 (Málaga-Estepona) and 2054 (Estepona-Guadiaro): https://www.cintra.es/es/espana/ausol/#cifras-1


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## alserrod

It is between Salou and Valencia (north) and Valencia (south) and Alicante, plus A-4 Seville-Cadiz

AP-7 La Junquera-Salou (and AP-2) will be in september 2021


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## Eulanthe

The claim is here: https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-...el-sol-toll-charges-to-be-scrapped-this-year/

https://global.fm/news/toll-road-charges-will-be-scrapped-on-the-costa-del-sol/ - there are claims here that new junctions will also be built.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ That’s clearly wrong. It looks like some expats living in the Costa del Sol who run those websites heard the news about AP-7 becoming toll-free and automatically thought it affected “their” AP-7, when it only affects some sections in Valencia and Catalonia.

Of course, it’s better to rely on information provided by Spanish-language media outlets than on data published in a website called “the olive press”. The tittle says everything... :lol:


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## Eulanthe

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ That’s clearly wrong. It looks like some expats living in the Costa del Sol who run those websites heard the news about AP-7 becoming toll-free and automatically thought it affected “their” AP-7, when it only affects some sections in Valencia and Catalonia.
> 
> Of course, it’s better to rely on information provided by Spanish-language media outlets than on data published in a website called “the olive press”. The tittle says everything... :lol:


Where does the information come from about the additional accesses at Benahavis and so on? It can't have come out of thin air, surely. 

Edit: found it. It comes from some sort of development plan for the Costa Del Sol, in which the AP-7 would become toll free, and the A-7 would be transformed into a boulevard, similar to what happened to the old N-340 between Fuengirola and Benalmadena. The additional exits on the AP-7 would be created as part of this plan, as it would allow them to transform the A-7 coastal road. 

I don't like the plan at all. The A-7 with a 70km/h limit is fine as it is.

So yes, it seems that the English-language press got it completely wrong. Having said that, it's not impossible that a Sanchez-led government would buy it out, as the PSOE need to regain their credibility in Andalucia. Making the AP-7 "free" would be a huge vote-winner there.


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## Highway89

Eulanthe said:


> So yes, it seems that the English-language press got it completely wrong. Having said that, it's not impossible that a Sanchez-led government would buy it out, as the PSOE need to regain their credibility in Andalucia. *Making the AP-7 "free" would be a huge vote-winner there.*


I seriously doubt it. Andalusia is big, diverse and traditionally the Costa del Sol isn't exactly PSOE's "fishing ground" - unlike the rural areas of the interior and certain suburbs of bigger cities. There sure are other infrastructures with a better cost-to-[vote]benefit ratio. Not to mention how upsetting this could be to people from other areas that have been dealing with tolls for much more time, e.g. Galicia (AP-9). Such a measure would only fuel other parties' speech about _agravios comparativos_ (unfair treatments).


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## alserrod

It is not matter of territory, it is just matter of contract.

Contracts to manage tolls have different dates. Last year we could see how in Castilla y León (and a corner of Basque country) AP1 was free.

Nowadays is is time for another contract. 
After buying themselves, the same company manage from France to Alicante but will have booths only to Salou (Spanish press said to Tarragona, they were wrong too)

Territory?. Not at all. Ap7 contract around Valencia is joined to AP4 Seville Cadiz in Andalusia...

Both will be for free after January, even in Andalusia that motorway.

Worst place is for Galicians. Their tolled Ap9 seems to be last to be free


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## ChrisZwolle

It would be very expensive to buy out a concession that has another 30+ years to go. I believe this basically means that the government pays the tolls of all traffic until the end of the concession. That's a huge amount of money down the toilet that could've been spent on something more useful.


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## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> It would be very expensive to buy out a concession that has another 30+ years to go. I believe this basically means that the government pays the tolls of all traffic until the end of the concession. That's a huge amount of money down the toilet that could've been spent on something more useful.


Not really. Fairly buyout rules would tell the government has to pay the net present value (NPV) of the concession. This discounts all future cash flows with a given rate or set of rates: revenue and expenses.

The disputes always come down to what assumptions should be built-in, such as traffic growth, construction costs (for maintenance purposes) growth etc.

Concessions with front-loaded investments will always be expensive to buy out because most of the outlaws have been done, but just a few of the revenue over the life of the concessions.

Very low interest rates currently in place also make it more expensive to buy out anything.


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## verreme

Eulanthe said:


> Where does the information come from about the additional accesses at Benahavis and so on? It can't have come out of thin air, surely.
> 
> Edit: found it. It comes from some sort of development plan for the Costa Del Sol, in which the AP-7 would become toll free, and the A-7 would be transformed into a boulevard, similar to what happened to the old N-340 between Fuengirola and Benalmadena. The additional exits on the AP-7 would be created as part of this plan, as it would allow them to transform the A-7 coastal road.
> 
> I don't like the plan at all. The A-7 with a 70km/h limit is fine as it is.
> 
> So yes, it seems that the English-language press got it completely wrong. Having said that, it's not impossible that a Sanchez-led government would buy it out, as the PSOE need to regain their credibility in Andalucia. Making the AP-7 "free" would be a huge vote-winner there.





Highway89 said:


> I seriously doubt it. Andalusia is big, diverse and traditionally the Costa del Sol isn't exactly PSOE's "fishing ground" - unlike the rural areas of the interior and certain suburbs of bigger cities. There sure are other infrastructures with a better cost-to-[vote]benefit ratio. Not to mention how upsetting this could be to people from other areas that have been dealing with tolls for much more time, e.g. Galicia (AP-9). Such a measure would only fuel other parties' speech about _agravios comparativos_ (unfair treatments).


And many, if not most, residents of Costa del Sol aren't Spanish nationals and don't vote. Politically speaking, it would be much more profitable to finish SE-40.


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## g.spinoza

verreme said:


> And many, if not most, residents of Costa del Sol aren't Spanish nationals and don't vote. Politically speaking, it would be much more profitable to finish SE-40.


They don't vote but they bring money. Maybe they will bring their money somewhere else where the roads are cheaper


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## verreme

g.spinoza said:


> They don't vote but they bring money. Maybe they will bring their money somewhere else where the roads are cheaper


My experience (as a home insurance broker) tells me that most expats living in Costa del Sol are wealthy enough not to worry about road tolls, unlike in other parts of Spain such as the coast of Murcia and Alicante where it's mostly middle-class people who own cheap apartments.


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## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> They don't vote but they bring money. Maybe they will bring their money somewhere else where the roads are cheaper


I guess people flying to Malaga and having a rental car or so do not bother about tolls.

Anyway, reason to make it free is not for territory but just when toll motorway contract expires.

Here you are the best map I have found (source: La Vanguardia)

It says the year, no the month but we can surf











Companies will manage tolled motorways until that date. AP-1 is already free.

After that date, government can choose if enlarging and request for further investments... or as first time in history, return to public network for free.

As you can see, "problem" is really in Galicia


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## arctic_carlos

There's a new motorway project under construction in the island of Mallorca. It's the upgrade to motorway standards of *Ma-19* between Llucmajor and Campos (9 km). Construction started in October-November 2018 and should be ready in 22 months (Fall 2020).

Source: https://www.elmundo.es/baleares/2018/11/09/5be531f3e5fdeafe258b466e.html

On the other hand, construction of 5km of the second carriageway of *A-63* between Salas and El Regueirón (halfway between Salas and La Espina) was awarded last week. It will be completed in 12 months (maybe Fall 2020). The missing section between El Regueirón and La Espina will be completed at a later date.

Source: https://www.elcomercio.es/asturias/occidente/fomento-adjudica-segunda-20190717001226-ntvo.html



MichiH said:


> *A63:* La Espina – Salas-East 11.7km (? to _suspended_) [2nd c/w] – ? – map


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## alserrod

BTW, I drove last weekend over road N-232 opened last April.

It was a long time I didn't cross that area and it was amazing to go so fast. Easy to drive, peaceful...


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## arctic_carlos

The construction of two new motorway sections has been tendered today:

*A-11*: Quintanilla de Arriba - Olivares de Duero (14.5 km). € 134.9 M.










https://www.fomento.gob.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/mar-23072019-1048

*A-12*: Santo Domingo de la Calzada - Villamayor del Río (14.4 km). € 97.67 M.










https://www.fomento.gob.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/mar-23072019-1113

When completed, both A-11 and A-12 will greatly contribute to the creation of East-West high capacity corridors in Northern Spain, improving the connections of Galicia and Northern Portugal to France and the Ebro valley.


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## ChrisZwolle

Is it tendered (awarded) or has the tender been opened?

The BOE release appears to be the latter: https://boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-B-2019-32724

19. Plazo para la recepción de ofertas o solicitudes de participación:
Hasta las 15:00 horas del 23 de agosto de 2019.​
This seems like the deadline for offers is 23 August. 

The deadline is 36 months (presumably from the time of signing the contract).


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Yes, the tender for both sections has been opened, and now companies will present their bids. 

I thought the verb “to tender” (licitar) could be used to say that (the contract has been tendered = se ha licitado el contrato), while “to award” (adjudicar) was the verb used to specify which is the company that has been selected (the contract has been awarded to X = se ha adjudicado el contrato a X).


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## pai nosso

*A-66 – July of 2019


A-52 (Benavevte) » A-231 (South of Léon)*

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## pai nosso

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*AS-I (Mieres) » Campomanes*


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## pai nosso

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*A231 (South of Léon) » A-52 (Benavente) *


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## Stuu

Driving along the A44 through Granada province last week I noticed this unfinished junction. Any ideas why it is there? It doesn't seem to be a temporary junction, and the local towns seem well served by the junctions which do exist. The section from Granada down to Motril is quite a piece of engineering, especially as it doesn't really link anywhere significant


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## Aokromes

^^ For me it looks as non-build service area.


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## ChrisZwolle

I would say so yes.

A-44 may not directly link two large cities, but it is a rather important route to the coast. Motril has a port and the coast east of Málaga has a lot of large-scale tourism. There is also a lot of agricultural production east of Motril (up to the 'sea of plastic' around El Ejido) that would use A-44 to transport produce inland.


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## Stuu

Aokromes said:


> ^^ For me it looks as non-build service area.


Yes that would make sense from the aerial image, but I didn't think autovia had services of their own normally? The next junction south has petrol stations on both sides of the road anyway


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## Aokromes

^^ maybe original plans where to put service area there but towns asked to put on a better place for them.


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## Aokromes

^^ Dunno, older historical photos on that area are back to 2004 and the petrol stations and that place are there.


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## pai nosso

*A-67 – July of 2019


A8 (Torrelavega) » Santander*


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## pai nosso

7-


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*S-20 (Santander) » A8 (Torrelavega)*


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Source: pai nosso


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## pai nosso

*S-20 (Santander ring road) – July of 2019


A-67 » Santander*


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Source: pai nosso


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## Highway89

Stuu said:


> Driving along the A44 through Granada province last week I noticed this unfinished junction. Any ideas why it is there? It doesn't seem to be a temporary junction, and the local towns seem well served by the junctions which do exist. The section from Granada down to Motril is quite a piece of engineering, especially as it doesn't really link anywhere significant





Aokromes said:


> ^^ For me it looks as non-build service area.





Stuu said:


> Yes that would make sense from the aerial image, but I didn't think autovia had services of their own normally? The next junction south has petrol stations on both sides of the road anyway


Many of the newer autovías have been built with such pieces of land reserved for future service areas. See also:

A-12 
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.5501707,-2.1953101,428m/data=!3m1!1e3

A-8 
https://www.google.es/maps/@43.5444473,-6.8456929,841m/data=!3m1!1e3

A-67 
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.1473331,-4.4686516,1721m/data=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.5145793,-4.3836714,831m/data=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.8129069,-4.2151694,852m/data=!3m1!1e3


Every now and then Fomento grants concessions for them:


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## ChrisZwolle

A fatal crash on A-66 near Casar de Cáceres. A French driver crashed into a signage assembly and was killed. It's an example how you can drive for a significant distance behind the crash barriers and still have fatal outcomes. The car drove approximately 200 meters through the ditch, with 100 meters of that behind the guardrail. 










>> https://www.hoy.es/caceres/accidente-mortal-altura-20190805130600-nt.html


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## Highway89

The Spanish DGT has started to use drones to enforce traffic laws. They can't measure speed, but they can record other traffic offences.














The first 3 drones are now being used in the Canary Islands, where the DGT has no _Pegasus _helicopters. There will be a total of 30 drones. Most likely they'll be used in the areas which aren't covered by the Pegasus helicopters:


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## EMArg

From the bus: traveling from *Catalonia* to *Andorra*. Timecodes of the towns and routes within the spanish territory:


0:09 - Catalonia: La Rodonella (C-16 Highway)
2:22 - Catalonia: Guardiola de Berga
3:04 - Catalonia: Bagá
4:43 - Catalonia: Túnel del Cadí
5:00 - Catalonia: Peaje Túnel del Cadí
5:26 - Catalonia: Riu
6:16 - Catalonia: Route N-1411
6:35 - Catalonia: Baltarga
7:49 - Catalonia: Route N-260
8:10 - Catalonia: Bellver de Cerdaña
9:41 - Catalonia: Martinet
10:25 - Catalonia: Seo de Urgel
11:14 - Spain-Andorra Border


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## ChrisZwolle

*N-124*

I was looking for an update of the N-124 widening near Zambrana, which is supposed to be completed soon. 

I found out that the government of Álava province has also approved the widening of the northernmost segment of N-124 to an autovía up to the A-1 interchange. It will cost € 15.6 million

Source: https://www.gasteizhoy.com/n124-dos-carriles-reforma/


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## pai nosso

*A-64 -- July of 2019


Corujedo (N-634) » AS-I*


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Source: pai nosso


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## pai nosso

*AS-I -- July of 2019


A-64 » Mieres (A-66)*


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## pai nosso

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## pai nosso

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Source: pai nosso


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## Highway89

I've seen this video about a couple (85 & 79 year-old) who are walking from Soria to Aranda de Duero (120 km) asking for the completion of the *A-11*.






Besides, I've been travelling through the N-122 on Google Street View and it seems that every building along the road is full of these banners asking for a "motorway now!". Having read dozens of stories of locals protesting *against* motorways in other European countries, this may be shocking.
































































Even this official building has a banner 









The AADT in 2017 was only around 5k vpd but with a >30% of truck share. However I've heard that the truck traffic has increased greatly on the N-122 over the last two years due to the opening of the Marão tunnel in the Portuguese A4.


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## ChrisZwolle

I've seen this ¡Autovía ya! popping up on Google News articles quite frequently, also for the N-432 > A-81 conversion in Andalusia:


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## arctic_carlos

Highway89 said:


> I've seen this video about a couple (85 & 79 year-old) who are walking from Soria to Aranda de Duero (120 km) asking for the completion of the *A-11*.
> 
> Besides, I've been travelling through the N-122 on Google Street View and it seems that every building along the road is full of these banners asking for a "motorway now!". Having read dozens of stories of locals protesting *against* motorways in other European countries, this may be shocking.
> 
> The AADT in 2017 was only around 5k vpd but with a >30% of truck share. However I've heard that the truck traffic has increased greatly on the N-122 over the last two years due to the opening of the Marão tunnel in the Portuguese A4.


Well, if nothing goes wrong, in a couple of years there will be a continuous A-11 section between Langa de Duero and La Mallona (61 km). However, between Langa de Duero and Aranda de Duero (22 km), the construction contract was cancelled and needs to be tendered again. And the 19 km section between La Mallona and Los Rábanos (future A-11 <-> A-15 junction south of Soria), construction needs to be tendered as well.


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## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've seen this ¡Autovía ya! popping up on Google News articles quite frequently, also for the N-432 > A-81 conversion in Andalusia:


It's a bit odd that the A32 is under construction whilst the N432 hasn't been funded, presumably local politics?


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## Highway89

A little update by alsama on the A-73 Burgos-Aguilar de Campoo(-Santander), more specifically the Pedrosa de Valdelucio-Báscones de Valdivia stretch.


alsama said:


> Unas fotos del tramo Pedrosa Báscones.
> 
> Cerca de Pedrosa, por encima pasara la N-627
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enlace con la BU-621.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cerca de Fuencaliente de Lucio.




Location of the photos:


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## Highway89

And now the A-63 Cornellana-Salas, by *Little*

The photos have been taken from East to West:








https://apps.sentinel-hub.com/senti...9-02-01|2019-08-23&atmFilter=&showDates=false



Little said:


> Buenas a todos. Aunque ha costado un poco, por fin pude acercarme a hacer fotos del tramo y he podido subirlas para que las veais todos. El recorrido lo hice el pasado 15 de agosto, salvo unas pocas que hice un par de dias antes.
> 
> Como estaba de camino a otro sitio, tengo fotos a la ida y a la vuelta. No obstante, las voy a poner en orden de obra primero y luego unas panoramicas.
> 
> Para comenzar, esta el viaducto del Nonaya. Aqui, como ya se habia comentado, faltaban un estribo (que ya esta hecho) y una pila (que todavia no se ha levantado), a la vez que avanza la ejecucion del tablero.
> 
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5fCwB
> 
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5fCnU
> 
> Viaducto del Reguero Puerco, ya ejecutado antes de parar las obras
> 
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5hrsX
> 
> Viaducto del Barredo, donde estan ampliando el tablero.
> 
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5iceW
> 
> 
> Mas o menos a mitad del tramo, encontre un punto al que se podia acceder a tomar buenas fotos. En este punto estan haciendo un desmonte bastante importante.
> 
> Vista hacia Salas (se ve un viaducto pendiente de ejecutar un tablero)
> 
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5fDnj
> 
> Vista del citado desmonte y hacia Cornellana. En esta zona hay un tramo que no parece haber ningun movimiento por el momento.
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5fDzt
> 
> Vista del tronco hacia Camuño. El viaducto parece terminado.
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5fCY8
> 
> Y desde el mismo punto, vemos el tronco hacia Salas. Bastante avanzado.
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5fD5L
> 
> Ya al final del tramo, se ve que han comenzado la ejecucion de un desmonte bastante grande que, imagino, requiere la retirada de la linea electrica en este punto, a la vista de la localizacion de todos los elementos.
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5hqtN
> 
> De las panoramicas, tengo varias desde un camino proximo a la obra.
> 
> - Viaducto Barredo
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5ibbi
> 
> - Mas o menos desde el Nonaya hasta el Barredo
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5ibfX
> 
> - Despues del Barredo esta este desmonte que parece bastante avanzado. Ademas, se ve una pilotadora. Ahi ira, entonces, el viaducto de Pandiella.
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5fE4z
> 
> - De la Pandiella al desmonte de mitad de tramo que comente mas arriba (no hay practicamente actividad en esta zona)
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5fE8h
> 
> - Vista del desmonte de mitad de tramo con mas detalle
> https://flic.kr/p/2h5fEf6
> 
> Hay algo mas de actividad en otras zonas, pero es un tramo de carretera nacional donde es bastante dificil parar para hacer fotos. Si quereis preguntar algo, estoy disponible para las dudas que tengais.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-21 Jaca - Santa Cilia*

I took a couple of photos of the new A-21 west of Jaca today::


A-21 Jaca - Santa Cilia by European Roads, on Flickr


A-21 Jaca - Santa Cilia by European Roads, on Flickr


A-21 Jaca - Santa Cilia by European Roads, on Flickr


A-21 Jaca - Santa Cilia by European Roads, on Flickr


A-21 Jaca - Santa Cilia by European Roads, on Flickr


A-21 Jaca - Santa Cilia by European Roads, on Flickr


A-21 Jaca - Santa Cilia by European Roads, on Flickr


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## alserrod

Thank you very much.

BTW, Ascara is linked nowadays only by motorway. If you wanna go on foot, country machines or bike, for instance, you may use paved paths.
Reason is brigde over river is halted and on works (this is, this stretch is not fully finished)

If you get out at Ascara you can go to Ascara little village only. In the future, coming from Jaca, would be the natural way to San Juan monastery, one out of best heritage in that corner of Aragon.


Did you drive over new A-23?


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> I took a couple of photos of the new A-21 west of Jaca *today*::


I assume you're around here in Spain? Great! Don't hesitate to ask for any kind of advice if you need it! :cheers:


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## alserrod

I assume also Chris was smart and... just in case, avoided Biarritz!!!

😁


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## CNGL

I drove that section literally hours after its opening . There's an annoying 30 km/h section to get from the motorway back to N-240 in Santa Cilia, at least it will no longer be necessary in a few months when the section to Puente la Reina (literally "Queen's bridge") de Jaca opens.


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## ChrisZwolle

I traveled on N-111 yesterday & today, from Logroño to Soria. The lack of traffic is astounding, I totally understand that A-13 is not planned there as was suggested in the past. It would’ve been very expensive for very low traffic volumes.

I also drove the new sections of A-11 from Soria to Aranda de Duero, the under construction segment from San Esteban de Gormaz to Langa de Duero looks very advanced, most of it already has asphalt on it.

There were a lot of Dutch license plates on A-1 from Aranda to Burgos, all of them had a female with a hijab on the passenger seat, a lot of Moroccans traveling back to the Netherlands (and Belgium). There were signs in French with a ferry symbol and the advice to take a break every 2-3 hours.

I also drove A-231 from Burgos to León, the pavement quality is still very good, it almost looks like it was resurfaced across the entire length recently. It looks the same as the newly opened A-60, and also much better than some autovías that are 10-15 years old. Settlement seems to be a problem in Spain, especially around bridges.


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> I traveled on N-111 yesterday & today, from Logroño to Soria. The lack of traffic is astounding, I totally understand that A-13 is not planned there as was suggested in the past. It would’ve been very expensive for very low traffic volumes.


Nice to hear that . Did you take the Piqueras tunnel, the mountain pass, or both? If you are still in the area, there are some interesting mountain roads around there, but beware of the road works on the LR-113, LR-232 and LR-250: https://www.larioja.org/carreteras/es/incidencias-red-carreteras



> LR-113 Canales de la Sierra-Intersección con LR-333, p.k. 20+250 al p.k. 24+500. Ensanche y Mejora. Trabajos de desmonte. Estrechamientos puntuales. Cortes intermitentes.
> LR-232 Villanueva de Cameros, p.k 0+0700. Reparación de estructura del puente sobre el río Iregua.
> LR-250 Soto en Cameros a Terroba p.k. 27+420. Acondicionamiento de la carretera. Estrechamientos puntuales. Cortes intermitentes.


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## ChrisZwolle

I took the pass 😁 I was the only traveler. Apart from a logging truck at the summit. I also drove to Puerto de Montenegro. The area seems very isolated. A lot of placenames have Cameros in them.


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## Highway89

^^ Cameros was a medieval lordship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_of_Cameros 

Nowadays it refers to the mountainous area south of La Rioja in the valleys of Iregua and Leza rivers.


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## CNGL

I drove N-111 back in October 2015, also going Logroño to Soria and over two days (I overnighted in Lumbreras, I had an extra hour for sleep due to DST ending that weekend ). However I took the tunnel instead of the pass. A nice drive, especially on the Riojan side.

Now I see that Terroba, I like the name of that town as it can be taken as "It robs you". I like to ask Google for directions from that place to any village that happens to be the surname of some politician or banker :colgate:.


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## ChrisZwolle

It appears that León wants to be its own thing, and not combined with Castilla del Norte. I’ve noticed that nearly all signs that say ‘Junta de Castilla y León’ were vandalized, with ‘Castilla’ removed. This is the case on nearly every 10 km marker and the other signs at the beginning of a road and after major intersections that say ‘Red de Carreteras de Castilla y León’. 

I also drove CL-631 from Villablino to Ponferrada today. Wow that area looks rundown. Lots of abandoned industrial estates and empty houses. The road surface is also very poor on the northern half and also nearly every directional sign has panels missing or is otherwise damaged. It looks like Wallonia.

On the subject of poor road surface, I noticed that maintenance levels seem to have fallen behind significantly, both on the national roads and autonomous roads, many have a surface that required a significant repair years ago. There seems to be a lot of deferred maintenance, which is hard to catch up once you lost 5-10 years of maintenance on many roads.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> It appears that León wants to be its own thing, and not combined with Castilla del Norte. I’ve noticed that nearly all signs that say ‘Junta de Castilla y León’ were vandalized, with ‘Castilla’ removed. This is the case on nearly every 10 km marker and the other signs at the beginning of a road and after major intersections that say ‘Red de Carreteras de Castilla y León’.



If you ask any citizen how much they are identified with their region, Castilla and Leon ones will give the poorest results. Historically they were two different regions (Cantabria and La Rioja belonged to Castilla BTW) and some of them even think they have lost opportunities due to they have just changed for a government based in Madrid to another one based in Valladolid.

In Castille you would had seen "y Leon" vandalized too.

Another point... in some signals pointing direction to Leon they are vandalized with "solo" (Leon solo = Only Leon)


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## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> Another point... in some signals pointing direction to Leon they are vandalized with "solo" (Leon solo = Only Leon)


I've seen a lot of those last year.

But.. does "Leon solo" mean "only Leon"? I think it is more accurate as "Leon alone".


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## alserrod

Leon alone, better translation


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## ChrisZwolle

I was in Riaño, which is near the Picos de Europa and has a lot of foreign tourists. However otherwise you don’t see many foreign tourist in the mountainous regions of León. The tourist infrastructure could be developed more like France, similar mountainous areas of France are more lively, for example most passes I drove today had no services at all at the summit, in France there are often 1-3 bars / restaurants. Maybe they simply lack the traffic. 

I drove a number of passes on the Asturian border, as well as several canyons on the southern edge of the Cantabrian Mountains, which rise rather abruptly from the Meseta. Very impressive vistas, yet almost no foreign tourists. 

I also noticed that the main roads have very few places to stop and take photos / enjoy the scenery. There are almost no pull-outs, most roads have guardrails or a very high drop to the side. The few pullouts that do exist are not signed in advance, so you have to do a hard brake once you spot one. It’s a pity, because there are many very scenic overviews in this region. This is generally much better in France and elsewhere in the Alps.


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## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> It appears that León wants to be its own thing, and not combined with Castilla del Norte. I’ve noticed that nearly all signs that say ‘Junta de Castilla y León’ were vandalized, with ‘Castilla’ removed. This is the case on nearly every 10 km marker and the other signs at the beginning of a road and after major intersections that say ‘Red de Carreteras de Castilla y León’.


It was Castilla la Vieja (Old Castile) , not "Northern Castile". And it didn't include the three Westernmost provinces of Castile and Leon, which where instead its own region of Leon, that explains the regionalist movement there. On the other hand, Old Castile included Cantabria and Rioja. And yep, there used to be a "New Castile" (Castilla la Nueva) as well, which corresponds mostly to today's Castile La Mancha, it also included Madrid but not Albacete (which was attached to Murcia region).


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was in Riaño, which is near the Picos de Europa and has a lot of foreign tourists. However otherwise you don’t see many foreign tourist in the mountainous regions of León. The tourist infrastructure could be developed more like France, similar mountainous areas of France are more lively, for example most passes I drove today had no services at all at the summit, in France there are often 1-3 bars / restaurants. Maybe they simply lack the traffic.
> 
> I drove a number of passes on the Asturian border, as well as several canyons on the southern edge of the Cantabrian Mountains, which rise rather abruptly from the Meseta. Very impressive vistas, yet almost no foreign tourists.
> 
> I also noticed that the main roads have very few places to stop and take photos / enjoy the scenery. There are almost no pull-outs, most roads have guardrails or a very high drop to the side. The few pullouts that do exist are not signed in advance, so you have to do a hard brake once you spot one. It’s a pity, because there are many very scenic overviews in this region. This is generally much better in France and elsewhere in the Alps.



There's an old project about a small ski resort in the area but halted due to environmental issues.

And... in mountain sites, they mainly survive due to winter (ski) and have infrastructure for summer. Nearest ski resort is small too and only for 1-2 days skiing for people in the nearby.

Nevertheless it is known administration gives its back to Riaño area. It belongs to Picos de Europa too... you go to Covadonga or Bulnes and you see sites that invite you to visit. You go to Fuente De and you have the cable. You enter into Leon region and you see nothing special

Hint, if you wanna walk between Cain and Puente Poncebos, nearest path to Cain (Leon) is, by far, more scenic. It is enough to go to Cain, walk for 4 km and return (if coming from Puente Poncebos, 12 km to Cain and back to enjoy it)


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## pai nosso

ChrisZwolle said:


> I also noticed that the main roads have very few places to stop and take photos / enjoy the scenery. There are almost no pull-outs, most roads have guardrails or a very high drop to the side. The few pullouts that do exist are not signed in advance, so you have to do a hard brake once you spot one. It’s a pity, because there are many very scenic overviews in this region. This is generally much better in France and elsewhere in the Alps.



When i went last July i also notice that, and the fact that in Spain there are few places with picnic areas. I manage to found one between the La Remolina Dam and Riaño. 

Perhaps it is a cultural aspect of the country, i noticed that in Galicia (similar to Portugal in some cultural aspects) there are more pull-outs areas and picnic areas that Asturias, Cantabria, Asturias or Castille and Léon.





alserrod said:


> Nevertheless it is known administration gives its back to Riaño area. It belongs to Picos de Europa too... you go to Covadonga or Bulnes and you see sites that invite you to visit. You go to Fuente De and you have the cable. You enter into Leon region and you see nothing special
> 
> Hint, if you wanna walk between Cain and Puente Poncebos, nearest path to Cain (Leon) is, by far, more scenic. It is enough to go to Cain, walk for 4 km and return (if coming from Puente Poncebos, 12 km to Cain and back to enjoy it)



Now that you say that, i realize that you are correct. On the Picos da Europa Park, the part belonging to Castille & and Léon region is very poor when compared to Asturias and Cantabria.





ChrisZwolle said:


> It appears that León wants to be its own thing, and not combined with Castilla del Norte. I’ve noticed that nearly all signs that say ‘Junta de Castilla y León’ were vandalized, with ‘Castilla’ removed. This is the case on nearly every 10 km marker and the other signs at the beginning of a road and after major intersections that say ‘Red de Carreteras de Castilla y León’.



Most of the signs at the portuguese border that indicates Spain are vandalized with the word Spain crossed out and replaced by Galicia.


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## Highway89

CNGL said:


> Now I see that Terroba, I like the name of that town as it can be taken as "It robs you". I like to ask Google for directions from that place to any village that happens to be the surname of some politician or banker :colgate:.


In fact, there's a saying in La Rioja: "Cuidado: entre Soto y San Román, Terroba", which could be translated as _Be careful, you may be robbed between Soto and San Román_ - Terroba is located between Soto and San Román.



ChrisZwolle said:


> It appears that León wants to be its own thing, and not combined with Castilla del Norte. I’ve noticed that nearly all signs that say ‘Junta de Castilla y León’ were vandalized, with ‘Castilla’ removed. This is the case on nearly every 10 km marker and the other signs at the beginning of a road and after major intersections that say ‘Red de Carreteras de Castilla y León’.





alserrod said:


> In Castille you would had seen "y Leon" vandalized too.


Indeed. But it's not as common. 




























This was the old border sign at the Piqueras mountain pass, someone wrote "Castilla" on the La Rioja sign. Note the bullet holes too. 










Bilingual signs are sometimes vandalised too. In this case, the Basque text on a sign located in a non-Basque-speaking area was crossed out.














ChrisZwolle said:


> I was in Riaño, which is near the Picos de Europa and has a lot of foreign tourists. However otherwise you don’t see many foreign tourist in the mountainous regions of León. The tourist infrastructure could be developed more like France, similar mountainous areas of France are more lively, for example most passes I drove today had no services at all at the summit, in France there are often 1-3 bars / restaurants. Maybe they simply lack the traffic.


I don't think people in Spain have this concept of drive tourism or whatever it's called. A road is just a means to go from point A to point B. Only a few (myself included) see the road as an attraction on its own.

Besides, many people fear tourism. Especially mass, foreign tourism. They don't want northern Spain to become another Mediterranean coast / island with drunk foreigners jumping from hotel balconies and urinating over historical monuments. Or they don't want their towns to become _pastiche_ medieval towns filled with strangers taking pictures of locals as if they were in a zoo.

An example of this is the "Beach of the Cathedrals" in Lugo province. It was unknown by almost everybody, but after it appeared on the TV, flocks of strangers started to fill the beach up to the point that the access had to be restricted.


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## arctic_carlos

This is the old regional map of Spain (before 1978). Its author forgot to include the Canary Islands (and the name of Murcia). :lol:










In any event, these regions weren't political entities, as Spain was then a heavy centralized State. Only provinces had some relevance as administrative divisons. So these regions were mere groups of provinces, only used for statistical purposes, I guess.

And this article explains how the current autonomous regions were created: https://www.abc.es/espana/la-transi...rto-mapa-autonomico-201804260147_noticia.html. Not many people are aware that the province of Segovia also tried to become an autonomous region of its own.


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## alserrod

Highway89 said:


> I don't think people in Spain have this concept of drive tourism or whatever it's called. A road is just a means to go from point A to point B. Only a few (myself included) see the road as an attraction on its own.



In Aragon a website pointing several "slow routes" was created and further, was enlarged with more information. Those scenic routes just to enjoy landscapes around you. Somewhere to stop, to visit and never mind if you take shorter or longer to drive the full route

English version

http://www.slowdrivingaragon.com/en/


May anyone is going to drive there, please MP me and I will point as much information as I can


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## ChrisZwolle

pai nosso said:


> Perhaps it is a cultural aspect of the country, i noticed that in Galicia (similar to Portugal in some cultural aspects) there are more pull-outs areas and picnic areas that Asturias, Cantabria, Asturias or Castille and Léon.


I noticed that too. Galicia also seems to have more rest areas directly on the autovía. Maybe because the area doesn’t get so hot that people want to spend it outside instead of in an A/C bar or cafeteria.

But the difference with Portugal is substantial, I just drove N103 from Chaves to the west and there were pullouts every 300 meters or so. The road is of a much lower design standard though...



Highway89 said:


> I don't think people in Spain have this concept of drive tourism or whatever it's called. A road is just a means to go from point A to point B. Only a few (myself included) see the road as an attraction on its own.
> 
> Besides, many people fear tourism. Especially mass, foreign tourism. They don't want northern Spain to become another Mediterranean coast / island with drunk foreigners jumping from hotel balconies and urinating over historical monuments. Or they don't want their towns to become _pastiche_ medieval towns filled with strangers taking pictures of locals as if they were in a zoo.


These areas won’t become the next Costa del Sol or Costa Brava, as it is a different kind of tourist that visit such areas of natural beauty. Usually older / families / hikers. They typically don’t engage in binge-drinking and other antics. 

Many villages on the south side of the Cantabrian divide don’t look like they’re thriving. Most appear deserted, with only a few elderly sitting on their doorstep judging passerby’s. :lol: They could benefit from some small-scale tourism. 

By the way what is the deal with the forests in Galicia? There is a huge amount of forest - in fact there hardly seems to be any traditional farming, but a large proportion of the forest is planted neatly in lines. Is there a big logging industry? I haven’t seen any logging trucks or piles of trees or companies that would process them though....


----------



## g.spinoza

Highway89 said:


> Besides, many people fear tourism. Especially mass, foreign tourism. They don't want northern Spain to become another Mediterranean coast / island with drunk foreigners jumping from hotel balconies and urinating over historical monuments. Or they don't want their towns to become _pastiche_ medieval towns filled with strangers taking pictures of locals as if they were in a zoo.


I don't think it ever will be. The weather is key, and simply put, northern Spain is too cold and rainy in summer. 


> An example of this is the "Beach of the Cathedrals" in Lugo province. It was unknown by almost everybody, but after it appeared on the TV, flocks of strangers started to fill the beach up to the point that the access had to be restricted.


I tried to go there last year but the tide was up and it was already overcrowded.
But I discovered many wonderful beaches, all basically deserted: Comillas, Bares, Corrubedo, Carnota...


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> By the way what is the deal with the forests in Galicia? There is a huge amount of forest - in fact there hardly seems to be any traditional farming, but a large proportion of the forest is planted neatly in lines. Is there a big logging industry? I haven’t seen any logging trucks or piles of trees or companies that would process them though....


Eucalypt and pine forests for the paper industry. See: ENCE

Rural properties in Northern Spain are usually too small to be profitable, but pretty much every family owns a piece of land. So, they usually plant eucalypts and sell the wood every 15 years. They can get from € 8k to 12k per ha (source: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...camino-invertir-monte/0003_201804G15P9991.htm )

This is also one of the reasons why forest fires are so common in NW Spain.:


----------



## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> These areas won’t become the next Costa del Sol or Costa Brava, as it is a different kind of tourist that visit such areas of natural beauty. Usually older / families / hikers. They typically don’t engage in binge-drinking and other antics.


Places like Laredo or Sanxenxo, though very far away from Lloret or Benidorm, are slowly starting to become ruined by certain types of tourists.

Then you also have villages like Potes or Santillana del Mar, which have basically turned into tourist traps. I even noticed this when I did the Camino de Santiago. The first village in Galicia was O Cebreiro. Every house had been turned into a restaurant or souvenir shop, many times owned by non-locals, many times showing what tourists want to see, not the real traditions. Do they really want that? More importantly: Is there actually enough market for that? France or Italy are light years ahead when it comes to that kind of tourism. How many Europeans would choose Montaña Palentina over Tuscany or Dordogne for their holidays? Unironically, many local authorities thought this could be achieved. The result was dozens of almost unused airports scattered all along the country and millions of Euros wasted on subsidising Ryanair and the like.



g.spinoza said:


> I don't think it ever will be. The weather is key, and simply put, northern Spain is too cold and rainy in summer.


There are places such as the Rias Baixas which have quite a pleasant climate in the summer. Same for certain places in Cantabria. Not to the point of attracting millions of Northern Europeans, but enough to get hundreds of thousands from the northern half of Spain.






ChrisZwolle said:


> Many villages on the south side of the Cantabrian divide don’t look like they’re thriving. Most appear deserted, with only a few elderly sitting on their doorstep judging passerby’s. :lol: They could benefit from some small-scale tourism.


In La Rioja, most mountain villages are basically deserted throughout the year. Even though dozens of people are registered, only a few actually live there on weekdays, mostly retired people who refuse to go to a retirement home. On weekends and other holidays (Holy Week, 1st November, etc), however, people return to the village from Logroño. Basically they have become second residences.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The French side of the Pyrenees is much more developed with nature-oriented tourism, while the Spanish side is arguably more spectacular. There is a clear difference in the same region, depending on which side of the border you’re on. The Spanish side has some ski resorts but apart from the occasional campsite, not much more. It doesn’t help that services like decent supermarkets are often a long drive away.

The weather divide at the Cantabrian Mountains is gigantic. You can have persistent clouds and rain on the north slope and clear skies and higher temperatures on the south slope, this can change from one to the other in literally 5 kilometers. You also notice this with the vegetation at mountain passes, the CyL side is above the tree line and quite dry, while the Asturias or Cantabrian side is much greener and has lush forests at higher altitudes (not just pine trees).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> But I discovered many wonderful beaches, all basically deserted: Comillas, Bares, Corrubedo, Carnota...


I stayed at a campsite near Carnota yesterday. They have great beaches and no mass tourism. I liked it. The bar had a direct view over the sea, yet no crowds. I prefer this over Costa Brava or Costa del Sol, not to mention Benidorm...


----------



## g.spinoza

Highway89 said:


> There are places such as the Rias Baixas which have quite a pleasant climate in the summer. Same for certain places in Cantabria. Not to the point of attracting millions of Northern Europeans, but enough to get hundreds of thousands from the northern half of Spain.


In Ezaro I had the chance to talk to a local guy who spoke good Italian because he was studying in Florence.
He was really surprised to find non-Spaniards there. He told me that the place was too far away and too "particular" to attract foreigners, not to mention the unpredictable weather.
But indeed, I found much worse weather in Cantabria and northern Galicia.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Apart from the thunderstorms, you can clearly see the weather divide at the Cantabrian Mountains. This is a frequent occurrence.


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> The weather divide at the Cantabrian Mountains is gigantic. You can have persistent clouds and rain on the north slope and clear skies and higher temperatures on the south slope, this can change from one to the other in literally 5 kilometers. You also notice this with the vegetation at mountain passes, the CyL side is above the tree line and quite dry, while the Asturias or Cantabrian side is much greener and has lush forests at higher altitudes (not just pine trees).


The interior (CyL) side has harsher, longer winters, which leads to worse conditions for vegetation to grow ( => shorter growing season). 

Average date of the first frost:









Average date of the last frost:









Average minimum temp in winter:









Average number of hours with temps below zero per year:









Source: https://climaenmapas.blogspot.com/


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## Stuu

Highway89 said:


> Besides, many people fear tourism. Especially mass, foreign tourism. They don't want northern Spain to become another Mediterranean coast / island with drunk foreigners jumping from hotel balconies and urinating over historical monuments. Or they don't want their towns to become _pastiche_ medieval towns filled with strangers taking pictures of locals as if they were in a zoo.


Entirely understandable, but as others have said those regions are not ever going to attract that kind of tourism. 

Earlier this year I went to Santander and took the train to Bilbao, it's not quite Switzerland but it's a lovely part of the world. And it seems to be barely known, certainly in the UK. Coming into Santander by boat from Plymouth was really something, a normal prosperous seeming working city with the mountains behind and huge empty beaches could surely handle a few more visitors? Spain is for me is the country with the most contrasting experiences possible, and spreading the visitors out a little should be possible without turning everywhere into Venice

Edited to add: Completely agree with Chris, there are many many scenic routes in Spain but finding somewhere to stop and enjoy them is much harder than elsewhere. Perhaps because the population take it for granted and don't pay it much attention. Sorry to go on but somewhere like the Sierra Mágina would be a tourist hotspot in many other countries. Spoilt for choice perhaps


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## ChrisZwolle

I drove the Puerto de Pajares (N-630) today. The approach from the CyL side is easy and scenic. However the Asturian side is a sheer dropoff, a 17% grade, and there are large semi trucks travelling across it! 

A-52 has a number of 5% grades and there are trucks going 40 km/h there. A-52 is a very scenic route, an unknown gem, as there aren’t many foreigners driving there except for some Portuguese and a bit of French going to Portugal east of Verín. Surprisingly, A-52 is signed as an autopista from Requejo to Benavente. Why is that? It was built around the same time as the rest of A-52, but the character is different: the eastern part of A-52 is flat and has long distances between exits compared to the rest of A-52.


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## verreme

^^ In the late 1980s and early 90s Spain built some toll-free _autopistas_, like A-52, A-7 (Alicante-Murcia), A-8 (Santander-Bilbao) or A-66 (Benavente-León). The reason why they were conceived as such was that _autovías_ used to have a much lower standard back then. Even signage was different (blue on white for _autovías_). This distinction is pointless today. Signage on these "secretive" _autopistas_ is a mix of both road categories.


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## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove the Puerto de Pajares (N-630) today. The approach from the CyL side is easy and scenic. However the Asturian side is a sheer dropoff, a 17% grade, and there are large semi trucks travelling across it!


Pajares pass is a well known one, both from cycling and the live snow reports during Winter. It was the main access to Asturias, and still is if one doesn't want to pay the AP-66 toll. I remember when I travelled through it, I approached it from the Leon side and we said what a pity, until we reached the summit and encountered the 17% grade just after it. The descent into the Lena valley (Yes, that is Asturias, not Siberia :lol is quite dramatic, especially after the gentle ascent from Leon.


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## arctic_carlos

verreme said:


> ^^ In the late 1980s and early 90s Spain built some toll-free _autopistas_, like A-52, A-7 (Alicante-Murcia), A-8 (Santander-Bilbao) or A-66 (Benavente-León). The reason why they were conceived as such was that _autovías_ used to have a much lower standard back then. Even signage was different (blue on white for _autovías_). This distinction is pointless today. Signage on these "secretive" _autopistas_ is a mix of both road categories.


Also A-49 between Seville and Huelva, IIRC.

One of the most characteristic features of this kind of "autopistas" is that, contrary to most "autovías" built at the same time, they were fully built on new alignments, instead of using the old national roads as one of their carriageways (which was the case in most interurban sections of autovías). Just compare A-7 west and south of Murcia.

Nowadays "autovías" are also usually built on completely new alignments, unless they take advantage of previously upgraded sections of national roads.


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## ChrisZwolle

A-52 seems to have been built entirely on a new alignment, but only the eastern segment is an autopista. I drove a section of N-525 next to A-52 near the regional border. It also has a tunnel, there are three generations of roads there: the old pass, the N-525 tunnel and the A-52 tunnel. 

A-52 was one of the grand projects of the 1990s, built slightly after the first generation autovias, but on an entirely new alignment, much like A-6 from Astorga to A Coruña.


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## adevahi

Announced published of two new sections of SE-40.

It looks like a great new... but maybe is not.

First thing: they are not considering to make the tunnels. With this two sections, they would connect A-49 (Autovía Sevilla-Huelva) with A-66 (Sevilla-Mérida-Cáceres-...-Gijón). It's an interesting section, since it will give some sense to long distance trips, such as people of Extremadura going to the beaches of Huelva, or even reducing time from Madrid to Huelva in... maybe 20-30 minutes?

Second thing: I will explain with a quote translated from the link above:



> This section will have autovia's standard. The total widening of each "calzada" will be 10.5 meters, that will correspond to *two lanes* of 3.5 meters, to which there will be added two shoulders of 2.5 meters in the outside and 1.0 meters in the inside.
> 
> Moreover, there will be a central reservation of soil of 10 meters wide between both directions.


So, 2x3.5+2.5+1.0=10.5 meters

Now, the word "calzada" normally doesn't include the shoulders, so it's maybe an error of the writing, so we would have: 3x3.5=10.5 meters (+2.5+1.0 for shoulders, out of "calzada").

What do you think? Are they including shoulders inside "calzada" or there is an error in the press?

Some of you have read announces of fomento for roads during years, can you tell me your opinion? It would be insane to make SE-40 with just two lanes, more insane even in sections like this two, in the largely populated area of Aljarafe.


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## Highway89

^^ It's clearly a mistake. It will be 3 lanes wide per direction:


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## ChrisZwolle

The word _calzada_ seems to have the same meaning as carriageway. I would assume this is the entire asphalt width (including shoulders).


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## adevahi

^^ Not really. I didn't translate that word in purpose because when traslating, there is always a loss of significance in my opinion.

Let's see what appears if you put "calzada" in google from Spain:




























































I'm going to trust on Highway89, where have you obtained this screenshot?


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> The word _calzada_ seems to have the same meaning as carriageway. I would assume this is the entire asphalt width (including shoulders).


These previous graphics are really good.

Anyway, in addition, you can glance wikipedia. I guess, it is short but complete in Spanish

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calzada

- It comes from Latin
- It meant "paved path" (stoned path indeed)
- It is where traffic drives. This is... shoulders AREN'T "calzada" (they are most usually paved but could be unpaved)
- In cities/towns, in a street, pedestrian area is NOT "calzada" and all area for cars are "calzada" (even areas to park)


If you follow St. James Lane, there are some places (main one is "Santo Domingo de la Calzada") with the name of Calzada reminding Lane crosses it. In other corners in Spain, it is not often but should any town, village or just an area is called "calzada...." be sure a main lane crossed there a long time ago.


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## ChrisZwolle

I've seen signs for a 'calzada romana' many times in Spain.


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## alserrod

Correct... and as you can see, road EX-117 remains with the same bridge than 2000 years ago

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.723...4!1sKKyDzkppfrqpZsO8OMdMOg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656



There's an unknown history about Roman roads in Spain. One out of most famous was Via Augusta more or less, paralel to Mediterranean

In Barcelona, it had a curve, nowadays with line 7 of subway under it. The same street called "Via Augusta" is former Roman path

https://www.google.com/maps/place/B...44b0fb3d4f47660a!8m2!3d41.3850639!4d2.1734035


But quite far in the south...

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9891215,0.9162868,17z

you can find where it was Via Augusta too

And obviously, it had some monuments

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.173...4!1sBYA629VIJvVUQAgiw3WTYQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I found once a historical picture with N-330 UNDER this arch


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## pai nosso

*AG-41 – October of 2019* [Galicia]


0-
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## pai nosso

7-


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## pai nosso

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## pai nosso

21-


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Source: pai nosso


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## sponge_bob

alserrod said:


> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calzada
> 
> - It is where traffic drives. This is... shoulders AREN'T "calzada" (they are most usually paved but could be unpaved)


In English the phrase is "Running Carriageway" . The hard shoulder is for stopping rather than running, be it paved or not. 

Both the hard shoulder and the running carriageway together is called "the carriageway" or "the roadway" or sometimes the "paved area" or simply "pavement"


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## alserrod

Green signals in Spain?

I thought they didn't exist anymore


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## ChrisZwolle

All VG and CG routes in Galicia have green signs from what I've seen.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-74*

The first stage of A-74 (11.1 km) is estimated at € 241 million.


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## Highway89

^^ That's pretty expensive for Spanish standards, but it will feature several viaducts and a tunnel.


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## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> Green signals in Spain?
> 
> I thought they didn't exist anymore




Have you changed the numbering system again?!


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## Penn's Woods

*[E] Spain | road infrastructure • autopistas y autovías*



sponge_bob said:


> In English the phrase is "Running Carriageway" . The hard shoulder is for stopping rather than running, be it paved or not.
> 
> 
> 
> Both the hard shoulder and the running carriageway together is called "the carriageway" or "the roadway" or sometimes the "paved area" or simply "pavement"




British (Australian? New Zealand?) English, I suppose. I’ve never heard “running carriageway.” We don’t use “carriageway” at all (and my auto-“correct” just broke it into two words). Although I can’t think of a good way to say it...”roadway” I guess.


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## sponge_bob

Highway89 said:


> ^^ That's pretty expensive for Spanish standards, but it will feature several viaducts and a tunnel.


It is intended to go to Ferrol in the end but the A74 will be the eastern bit and the rest has a pile of different names like A Marina, CG-1.3 , CG2.3 and VAC ( on Openstreetmap) so it looks like the Galicians will end up building most of it and not Madrid, some time.


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## ChrisZwolle

Most of it is planned as the 'Vía de Alta Capacidad de la Costa Norte'. These are CG-1.3 in A Coruña province and CG-2.3 in Lugo province. 

However through traffic can already conveniently access Ferrol via AG-64. The _Vía de Alta Capacidad de la Costa Norte_ is mostly to provide better access to seaside towns along the north coast.


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## ChrisZwolle

A-32 around Torreperogil seems to have opened to traffic around 1 p.m. today, if I read this correctly: https://cadenaser.com/emisora/2019/10/30/radio_ubeda/1572439524_769348.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-32 Torreperogil*



ChrisZwolle said:


> A-32 around Torreperogil seems to have opened to traffic around 1 p.m. today, if I read this correctly: https://cadenaser.com/emisora/2019/10/30/radio_ubeda/1572439524_769348.html



The press release from last week talked about a 7.5 km segment of A-32 to open around Torreperogil.

I think it is this section, which measures 7.5 km. Which makes it more like an Úbeda - Torreperogil section than an actual bypass of Torreperogil, though the exit is named 'Torreperogil este'. I doubt if it even is faster than the old N-322.









So it's not the entire bypass of Torreperogil, and there also seems to be an incomplete section west of Úbeda to near Baeza (A-316).

Unfortunately there is no recent satellite imagery of this area in Google Earth (April 2016).


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## ChrisZwolle

Hmmm, that doesn't look right.

I located the press release from last week: https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/jue-24102019-2001

_El trazado se inicia en el P.K 150+000 de la N-322, en el enlace de Torreperogil. A partir de aquí, el trazado discurre en variante al norte del núcleo de “El Campillo”, cruzando la “Cañada Real del Paso” cuya continuidad se mantiene mediante un paso inferior. Hay otro enlace que conecta con la A-6011 y permite el acceso a Sabiote y la zona norte de Torreperogil. Posteriormente se sitúa el viaducto, con una longitud de 101,2 m. El trazado retorna al corredor de la N-322 situándose al norte de la misma, pero sin afectarla, dado que se mantiene como vía de servicio. Se conecta con la N-322 en el P.K. 158+900, en el paso inferior existente en este punto._

So the new route is from km 150 to km 158.9 of N-322. Which is indeed a bypass of Torreperogil, but with a temporary endpoint near km 158.9. 

That would make the new motorway longer than 7.5 km though, around 8.7 km.










This means that the upgrade around Úbeda isn't complete yet.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I think it's the whole bypass, from the connection with N322a between Ubeda and Torreperogil, to the east of Torreperogil.


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## arctic_carlos

g.spinoza said:


> Why don't they use AP-7 which goes the same direction and is just few km north?


Obviously because AP-7 is a toll motorway and N-340 is free of charge. :lol:


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> So the new route is from km 150 to km 158.9 of N-322. Which is indeed a bypass of Torreperogil, but with a temporary endpoint near km 158.9.
> 
> That would make the new motorway longer than 7.5 km though, around 8.7 km.
> 
> This means that the upgrade around Úbeda isn't complete yet.


I also struggeled with the location last week 

The bypass of Torreperogil was opened today, and west of it, a 7km subsection is not yet completed. There seems to be another ~1.5km subsection east of the bypass. The whole section has a length of 16.3km. Is there any info when these subsections should be opened?


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## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> So the new route is from km 150 to km 158.9 of N-322. Which is indeed a bypass of Torreperogil, but with a temporary endpoint near km 158.9.
> 
> That would make the new motorway longer than 7.5 km though, around 8.7 km.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This means that the upgrade around Úbeda isn't complete yet.


That's indeed the opened section. There is either a mistake in the press release from last week or, as MichiH points out, there's a 1 km unopened section east of the bypass.


----------



## verreme

g.spinoza said:


> Why don't they use AP-7 which goes the same direction and is just few km north?


Because the area around N-340 is very developed and connections with AP-7 are poor. Vallirana and Ordal are basically outer suburbs of Barcelona with very poor infrastructure; streets are steep and there are no shops of services. Just like your average American suburb, but on top of a mountain.

This pattern is repeated in many areas this far from Barcelona, such as the Maresme or Vallès regions. North American-like suburbs with little or no infrastructure and/or services. This leads to local police forces not being able to patrol all streets, for example, and robberies being a very common issue.

Also, municipalities can't afford the maintenance of most streets and many are torn apart by ruts and pothols. Something a bit shocking given the income level of the people that live there.

IMO, the sprawl of these towns in the 1980s and 90s is the biggest urban planning mistake in the metro area of Barcelona. It has made many people totally dependent on car transport and infrastructure is very difficult to build because of the terrain.



ChrisZwolle said:


> There seem to be multiple quarries in that area, as well as some warehouses west of Vallirana, they are dependent on N-340.
> 
> Vallirana is located in such a way that almost all traffic in the urbanized area ends up on N-340 at some point.
> 
> There are a lot of suburban areas in the hills there, I wonder how traffic in La Palma de Cervelló and Corbera de Llobregat is, as those areas also have limited infrastructure to get from A to B.


Traffic inside the villages is low because there are many ways to get from A to B, but you must have a car since bus lines don't reach the most distant areas. in fact, it's a bit eerie there at night because there are no shops or services at all and people just don't walk around.


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## arctic_carlos

*A-62*



> *A62:* Fuentes de Onoro – east of Fuentes de Onoro 2km (2nd half 2015 to October 2019) – ? – map


Opening next Wednesday (November 6th). :banana:










(only the section in yellow: 1.85 km).

Source: https://www.fomento.gob.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/jue-31102019-1454


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## ChrisZwolle

RM-16 near Murcia Airport :cheers:


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## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> RM-16 near Murcia Airport :cheers:


Sure about that?


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ It is. That section has so little traffic that it is often used for movie shootings. :lol:


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## Stuu

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ It is. That section has so little traffic that it is often used for movie shootings. :lol:


Oh right! I didn't think of an explanation like that, in which case apologies to Chris for questioning it :nuts:


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## arctic_carlos

^^ This is the place: https://www.google.es/maps/@37.8209...4!1sCKR4znCTTZFD6V3xcHtzGA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


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## CNGL

At first I was puzzled. I thought, wrong thread, this should be on the Mexican thread, Spain is not Mexico. Only with that Google Maps link I realized it's actually Spain. The sign should actually say "A-30 Cartagena".


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## arctic_carlos

*A-21*



MichiH said:


> *A21:* Puente la Reina de Jaca – Santa Cilia 7.2km (? to Late 2019) – ? – map


Pictures from last week:




























Source: https://www.nevasport.com/phorum/read.php?75,501534,page=127

This section is very advanced and could be opened by late November, according to users from Nevasport forum.


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## Kanadzie

It is funny how the fake Mexican road sign looks so much nicer than actual Mexican road signs with the fat-arrow and other issues...


----------



## MichiH

*A32 Torreperogil*



ChrisZwolle said:


> Hmmm, that doesn't look right.
> 
> I located the press release from last week: https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/jue-24102019-2001
> 
> _El trazado se inicia en el P.K 150+000 de la N-322, en el enlace de Torreperogil. A partir de aquí, el trazado discurre en variante al norte del núcleo de “El Campillo”, cruzando la “Cañada Real del Paso” cuya continuidad se mantiene mediante un paso inferior. Hay otro enlace que conecta con la A-6011 y permite el acceso a Sabiote y la zona norte de Torreperogil. Posteriormente se sitúa el viaducto, con una longitud de 101,2 m. El trazado retorna al corredor de la N-322 situándose al norte de la misma, pero sin afectarla, dado que se mantiene como vía de servicio. Se conecta con la N-322 en el P.K. 158+900, en el paso inferior existente en este punto._
> 
> So the new route is from km 150 to km 158.9 of N-322. Which is indeed a bypass of Torreperogil, but with a temporary endpoint near km 158.9.
> 
> That would make the new motorway longer than 7.5 km though, around 8.7 km.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This means that the upgrade around Úbeda isn't complete yet.





MichiH said:


> I also struggeled with the location last week
> 
> The bypass of Torreperogil was opened today, and west of it, a 7km subsection is not yet completed. There seems to be another ~1.5km subsection east of the bypass. The whole section has a length of 16.3km. Is there any info when these subsections should be opened?


OSM indicates the whole 8.7km in service now: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/38.0434/-3.2925
In addition, about 1.5km west of it. Have 10km been opened instead of the reported 7.5km? hno:

Aerials of the eastern end as of October 31: https://apps.sentinel-hub.com/senti...9-04-01|2019-10-31&atmFilter=&showDates=false There is no temporary access to the old alignment at "the 7.5km" but I think it might confirm OSM with a short temporary road "at 8.7km".


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ The PDF version of the official press release by Fomento has a map of the section:

https://www.fomento.gob.es/recursos_mfom/sala_prensa/191030-02.pdf

In the press release it is stated that the eastern end of the opened section is located where old N-322 has an underpass. https://www.google.es/maps/@38.0461829,-3.2493719,586m/data=!3m1!1e3 That's roughly km 15.2 in that map. 

And the western end is approximately located in km 6.5 of that map.

So I guess that the opened section is 8.7 km long.


----------



## Boltzman

MichiH said:


> OSM indicates the whole 8.7km in service now: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/38.0434/-3.2925
> In addition, about 1.5km west of it. Have 10km been opened instead of the reported 7.5km? hno:


As I understand it, OSM has got it right: there is still a gap around Úbeda, the motorway A-32 ends on the West side at the junction with A-316 (for Baeza and Jaén) and is resumed on the East side after crossing (without a junction) the A-6103 road (Úbeda to Sabiote).

This N-322 gap around Úbeda will be upgraded to motorway standards.


----------



## Highway89

The stretch of the SE-40 between A-376 and A-4:



javi el geo said:


> Las fotos están tomadas desde la cubierta del micro-falso-túnel que cubre la SE-40 a la altura del parque Dehesa de Valme.
> 
> Mirando hacia la autovía de Cádiz. Se observan los carilles de aceleración/deceleración del enlace con la avenida de las Universidades de Dos Hermanas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hacia la de Utrera





javi el geo said:


> Otra mirando dirección a la A-4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esta es la plataforma reservada para autobús rápido que está construyendo el Ayuntamiento de Dos Hermanas y que sustituye al nonato tranvía. Cruza sobre el falso túnel citado antes y unirá el núcleo principal de Dos Hermanas, la ciudad de toda la vida, con Montequinto a través de Entrenúcleos.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B-40*

An agreement has been reached to construct the Sabadell segment of B-40. The construction of the motorway has been included in the _Pla de Mobilitat del Vallès_.

>> https://cat.elpais.com/cat/2019/11/30/catalunya/1575135750_293906.html


----------



## 437.001

ChrisZwolle said:


> A new bridge of N-403 opened south of Ávila.
> 
> How is it possible to construct a bridge of this size for only € 4,8 million? It is a 210 meter long bridge with a 120 meter main span and 18 meter high pylons. It has an 11.3 meter wide deck.
> 
> A bridge of these dimensions would likely cost at least € 50 million in the Netherlands... :?


The other day I was discussing in the railway subforum exactly the same thing with a British forumer who was surprised to find that an extension of the Madrid metro will cost much less than a near-equivalent extension of the London Underground.

I guess it is a sum of many things.

-Overall cost of life being higher in the Netherlands and the UK than in Spain.
-Population density in Castile being MUCH lower than in the Netherlands and the UK (or England at least).
-Less population density also leading to less NIMBY's.


----------



## 437.001

*B-40*



ChrisZwolle said:


> An agreement has been reached to construct the Sabadell segment of B-40. The construction of the motorway has been included in the _Pla de Mobilitat del Vallès_.
> 
> >> https://cat.elpais.com/cat/2019/11/30/catalunya/1575135750_293906.html


Yeah, but at the same time, here are a few Google Maps images that show there are serious geological problems in the section between Olesa and Viladecavalls, which is absolutely crucial to take away thousands of vehicles away from the AP-7:

Let's follow the works from west (Olesa) to east (Viladecavalls).

*1)* Let's begin with the westernmost point: the Olesa tunnel.
All seems to be okayish and work in progress...












*2)* The section between the Olesa tunnel and the Torrent del Frare viaduct seems to be okay too...












*3)* Right after the Torrent del Frare viaduct, we bump into this.
Not sure wether this is a delay in the works, an instability being treated, or a lansdlide.












A zoom on the former :












*4)* Between that point and the Riera de Gaià viaduct, everything seems to be okayish...












*5)* Sadly, in the section beyond the Riera de Gaià viaduct, between that point and the Viladecavalls interchange, where it will join C-16, C-58 and the part of B-40 itself already in use between Viladecavalls and Terrassa, there are geological problems.
These problems are to be found all along the section, no exception...  Cracks on the ground, sometimes very long, landslips, a landslide... Doesn't look good at all.












The following images are zooms on image 5 (or zooms of those zooms).
You don't need much of a zoom to see the cracks on the road. Many are very long, some long and wide. And there is at least one large landslip.





































^^
Zoom of this last image:



















^^
Zoom of this last image:






































*6)* The Viladecavalls interchange, being remodelled to make way for the B-40 extension arriving from bottom left. 












^^
As you can see, there is no way this can open anytime soon (and I'm not even sure about the mid or even long term).
The problems are serious, affecting over 1km continuously.
The area around Vacarisses, Olesa, Viladecavalls, Ullastret, Rubí, Castellbisbal... is sadly known for its geological instabilities, which every now and then cause landslides or landslips.
Actually this year there has been one of them, mortal, on the neighbouring R4 suburban rail line, at Vacarisses, as a train crashed into it and derailed.


----------



## verreme

^^ These images are old and B-40 works were abandoned for a very long time, with no maintenance. To me these cracks and slides are a logical consequence of that. I don't know about the current state of works but the contractor should have rebuilt the section between the tunnel and the C-16 interchange.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

437.001 said:


> The other day I was discussing in the railway subforum exactly the same thing with a British forumer who was surprised to find that an extension of the Madrid metro will cost much less than a near-equivalent extension of the London Underground.
> 
> I guess it is a sum of many things.
> 
> -Overall cost of life being higher in the Netherlands and the UK than in Spain.
> -Population density in Castile being MUCH lower than in the Netherlands and the UK (or England at least).
> -Less population density also leading to less NIMBY's.


While these are certainly factors, they mostly explain the lower cost of land acquisition, not the construction of the bridge itself. A bridge like that would normally cost at least several tens of millions of euros in the Netherlands. While wages are lower in Spain, they are not _that_ low.


----------



## Highway89

Those costs are common in Spain. In my region they built a 1.2 km long bypass including a 132 m long, 11 m wide, much simpler bridge for €3.7 *M* total: https://nuevecuatrouno.com/2019/04/25/variante-murrillo-rio-leza-apertura-trafico/


----------



## 437.001

verreme said:


> These images are old and B-40 works were abandoned for a very long time, with no maintenance. To me these cracks and slides are a logical consequence of that.


These images can't be that old, as Google Maps gets updated regularly.
In the area, yearly, usually.

Btw, big landslips usually do not happen because of "no maintenance".

They usually happen because of unstable soils.



verreme said:


> I don't know about the current state of works but the contractor should have rebuilt the section between the tunnel and the C-16 interchange.


Well, I guess that first they have to see what they can do about the landslips...


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ In Google Earth (not Google Maps) you can check the date the images were taken. IIRC, these ones are 1-2 years old. Construction of the tunnel and the C-16 interchange is where most progress can be seen since construction was resumed, but the section where the landslides are located hasn’t changed much in the last few years...


----------



## adevahi

Highway89 said:


> Those costs are common in Spain. In my region they built a 1.2 km long bypass including a 132 m long, 11 m wide, much simpler bridge for €3.7 total: https://nuevecuatrouno.com/2019/04/25/variante-murrillo-rio-leza-apertura-trafico/


That would be more than an awesome cost. You forgot a capital M :lol:: 3.7M€.


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> While these are certainly factors, they mostly explain the lower cost of land acquisition, not the construction of the bridge itself. A bridge like that would normally cost at least several tens of millions of euros in the Netherlands. While wages are lower in Spain, they are not _that_ low.


I wonder how much of this is down to the planning process. This is a list of the document submitted for one 5km segment of dual carriageway in the UK - including, for example, a 47 page document about water voles and otters... The cost of this scheme is £170m, of which the construction contract was let for £135m, which implies planning and design cost £35m, or £5m per km. Does Spanish planning law require anything like this detail?


----------



## CNGL

Breaking news: A new section of A-21 is opening on Thursday, 5 December. From Puente la Reina de Jaca to Santa Cilia, thus continuing the section opened back in July. This is the last of the sections that were started before the budget cuts to open to traffic, it was started in 2008 but was stopped for five years (2012-17). There are still 6 sections on the Lleida-Pamplona (or as I call it, Alpicat-Noain) motorway not open, two of them are U/C (Sietamo-Huesca -the last on A-22- and Tiermas-Sigües), another starting soon (Sabiñanigo East-West), a fourth I don't know for what they are waiting to put it for tender (the Jaca bypass), and the last two are still not yet approved for tender (Lanave-Sabiñanigo South -this actually was started as two separate sections, but soon the budget cuts hit and subsequently they were merged- and Huesca/Zaragoza border-Puente la Reina de Jaca).

In other news last month works started on widening and straightening N-260 between the Ventamillo gorge and Campo a bit. It will still be bad, but not as bad as it is now. To make things worse, the very same day construction started a rockslide happened in the gorge itself, but was soon cleared.


----------



## sponge_bob

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ In Google Earth (not Google Maps) you can check the date the images were taken. IIRC, these ones are 1-2 years old. Construction of the tunnel and the C-16 interchange is where most progress can be seen since construction was resumed, but the section where the landslides are located hasn’t changed much in the last few years...


Openstreetmap had this overall section of B40 marked as under construction in 2014.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Let me clarify this: construction on the B-40 section between Olesa de Montserrat and Viladecavalls (the one we're talking about) started back in 2007-08, together with the other two sections that were opened in June 2010 (Abrera - Olesa de Montserrat and Viladecavalls - Terrassa). 

However, the middle section (Olesa de Montserrat - Viladecavalls) includes a very expensive 1.2 km tunnel, and that's why it was hit by budget cuts in May 2010. At that time, the long section affected by the cracks and landslides had already been built (almost 10 years ago!), but works had not started on the tunnel, and the C-16 interchange was at a very early construction stage. Construction of the whole section was resumed in spring 2015, and the digging of the tunnel was completed in 2017. Then they announced an opening in October 2019, a deadline which has of course not been met. I guess an opening in late 2020 could be possible if they manage to find a solution for the landslides and complete the C-16 interchange. But taking into account the recent experience with the Vallirana bypass, safety issues in the tunnels can delay the whole thing.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

CNGL said:


> Breaking news: A new section of A-21 is opening on Thursday, 5 December. From Puente la Reina de Jaca to Santa Cilia, thus continuing the section opened back in July.


Google Earth also features new imagery of this area from September 2019. You can see the motorway quasi completed.

In other 'breaking news', the remainder of A-32 around Úbeda will open to traffic tomorrow.

Fomento: https://www.fomento.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/mar-03122019-1708


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-11*

Fomento has also announced today the beginning of construction on the 20.2 km A-11 section between Tudela de Duero and Olivares de Duero (estimated cost: € 79M):

https://www.fomento.gob.es/el-ministerio/sala-de-prensa/noticias/mar-03122019-1103

It will be ready in 36 months (opening in December 2022), according to the local press:

https://www.elnortedecastilla.es/valladolid/provincia/comienzan-obras-tramo-20191203120552-nt.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B-224*

Upgrades are planned for B-224 in Catalonia.

A bypass of Piera is planned. And a 2 kilometer segment of B-224 between A-2 at Martorell and an industrial area is planned to be 'twinned' (some media speak of an autovía).

The traffic volumes on B-224 are pretty high: 18,500 vehicles per day at Sant Esteve and 25,000 approaching Martorell.

I wonder if this will be the first autovía on a secondary road in Catalonia? 

Press release: http://territori.gencat.cat/ca/inici/nota-premsa/?id=380785

Article: https://www.regio7.cat/anoia-baix-l...itter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=dogtrack

Location: https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.4781&mlon=1.8961#map=14/41.4781/1.8961


----------



## verreme

^^ That's great news. B-224 is under heavy pressure, due to the traffic generated by the SEAT plant and the auxiliary industry around it. However this is only a "Redacció de projecte" (design contract). Construction will be tendered separately.

I don't know if an "autovia" will be built since Departament de Territori i Sostenibilitat often refers to plain dual-carriageway roads as "autovies". For example, road C-260 in Figueres was referred to as "autovia urbana" when it's clearly a dual-carriageway road with roundabouts and a 50 km/h speed limit.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A tanker truck carrying LNG rolled over in the ditch along A-7 near Níjar. It looks like it rolled over from the service road, perhaps it went too far in the shoulder to let someone pass and the roadside collapsed under the weight, causing the tanker to roll over.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-23*

The Fomento website already considers that the new A-23 section Sábiñanigo west - Sábiñanigo east (8.6 km) is under construction. An official press release hasn't been published yet, but I guess it will be uploaded on Tuesday or Wednesday (we have a very long weekend ahead in Spain, from tonight until Sunday - in Madrid until Monday). In any case, actual construction must start before next Thursday, December 12, or the Environmental Impact Assessment for that section will expire...

According to the local press, the section will be ready in 40 months (opening in Spring 2023).


----------



## arctic_carlos

*FV-2*



MichiH said:


> *FV2:* south of Costa Calma – north of El Salmo 4.4km (? to 2019?) – ? – map


The regional government of the Canary Islands announced last week that construction of this section will be completed before the end of December. :banana:



> La obra completará otras ya realizadas para mejorar la conectividad y movilidad en todo ese territorio, como lo son el tramo Corralejo-La Caldereta en la FV-1 o *el tramo Costa Calma-Pecenescal en la FV-2* o carretera del sur, *cuyas obras concluirán este mismo mes de diciembre*.
> 
> https://www.canarias7.es/siete-isla...rto-del-rosario-recibe-129-millones-EE8336314


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This guardrail along an offramp of AG-56 at Brión, Galicia was not rated for 40 ton trucks. :nuts:



















https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...lca-autovia-brion/00031575566798867208319.htm


----------



## Highway89

CNGL said:


> Breaking news: A new section of A-21 is opening on Thursday, 5 December. From Puente la Reina de Jaca to Santa Cilia, thus continuing the section opened back in July. This is the last of the sections that were started before the budget cuts to open to traffic, it was started in 2008 but was stopped for five years (2012-17). There are still 6 sections on the Lleida-Pamplona (or as I call it, Alpicat-Noain) motorway not open, two of them are U/C (Sietamo-Huesca -the last on A-22- and Tiermas-Sigües), another starting soon (Sabiñanigo East-West), a fourth I don't know for what they are waiting to put it for tender (the Jaca bypass), and the last two are still not yet approved for tender (Lanave-Sabiñanigo South -this actually was started as two separate sections, but soon the budget cuts hit and subsequently they were merged- and Huesca/Zaragoza border-Puente la Reina de Jaca).
> 
> [...]


A nice video of the recently opened stretch of the A-21 between Santa Cilia and Puente la Reina de Jaca:







The stretch of the A-12 between Santo Domingo de La Calzada and Villamayor del Río has been provisionally awarded for € 72.4M (~5 M/km).

https://www.diariodeburgos.es/notic...la-A-12-junto-a-La-Rioja-costara-724-millones

Apparently the next stretch to be put out to tender will be Villafranca Montes de Oca - Ibeas de Juarros, through the Montes de Oca mountain range. The estimated cost is € 191.3M for 16.6 km (11.5 M/km), one of the most expensive in the Ábalos term. The western part of this stretch will follow the BU-820 to Arlanzón, in order to avoid the archaeological site of Atapuerca and the military training grounds and facilities around Zalduendo and Ibeas: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.3553134,-3.3771366,13273m/data=!3m1!1e3


----------



## alserrod

and CNGL "d'ailleurs" and not spotting about it!!!!!


----------



## Highway89

A Spanish trucker has uploaded a recent video of the Desfiladero de la Hermida (N-621). At around ~9:30 you can see some of the widening works


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's a terrible road to be stuck behind a truck. They drive 20-50 km/h and there are almost no possibilities to pass them.


----------



## alserrod

I have seen few, few, few trucks over the mountain pass.

A long time ago there was a daily bus Leon-Santander and return just on summer for 3 months. Nowadays you have point to point through Osorno via motorway.

You could see 3 axes trucks or so from Leon to the nearbies or from Santander, but crossing pass is strongly weird.


----------



## CNGL

N-260 across the Ventamillo gorge is another such road. For even more fun, try to ride the Zaragoza-Benasque bus a weekday. Those buses have CB radios to coordinate the passage through the gorge with any incoming trucks. I once rode it on a Thursday, and we passed the gorge in a convoy of two trucks and the bus. That bus goes through what is perhaps the widest variety of roads possible, ranging from a motorway (A-23 between Zaragoza and Huesca) to a goat path (the Ventamillo gorge itself).


----------



## alserrod

There's a water plant there and you can see a lot of trucks with bottled water to be sent from Pyrenees to a warehouse not far from Lerida


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's a terrible road to be stuck behind a truck. They drive 20-50 km/h and there are almost no possibilities to pass them.


I was stuck there in a queue of cars behind two buses when I drove there in September. Really annoying.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*AP-1*

AP-1 is now toll free for one year on the Burgos - Armiñón segment.

Traffic figures show a huge shift of truck traffic from N-I to AP-1. The number of trucks on AP-1 grew from 3,700 per day to 8,100 per day, while truck volumes on N-I declined from 5,200 to 800 per day. 

Car traffic increased by 12%, from 16,700 to 18,800 per day. 

Diario Vasco reports: https://www.diariovasco.com/sociedad/autopista-absorbe-millones-20191209211027-nt.html


----------



## Highway89

Another video by Fomento, this one about the A-32 Úbeda-Torreperogil.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is even a six lane section at Úbeda.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

FV-2 Costa Calma:



arctic_carlos said:


> The regional government of the Canary Islands announced last week that construction of this section will be completed before the end of December. :banana:


This radio station claims it will open to traffic tomorrow: https://www.surfm.es/en-servicio-de...mo-de-autovia-entre-costa-calma-y-pecenescal/


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Nice!

On the other hand, SE-40 between Dos Hermanas and Alcalá de Guadaíra will possibly open next week:



arcatrix said:


> Se prevé que la semana que viene entre en servicio el tramo entre Alcalá y Dos Hermanas
> 
> https://elcorreoweb.es/sevilla/el-t...preve-en-servicio-la-proxima-semana-MA6121592


----------



## adevahi

^^ It's not clear if it will be complete section until A-4 or only semi-section until Avenida de las Universidades.

Reading the news ("8 kilómetros", "tráfico de Córdoba a Cádiz"...) it seems that it will be open the full section, but I still doubt it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

19 December is the date for SE-40: https://andaluciainformacion.es/sev...ramo-de-la-se-40-entre-dos-hermanas-y-alcala/


----------



## AvB

*Mallorca*

*Arta - Drach Caves (Porto Cristo) x3.2*





*Arta - Drach Caves (Porto Cristo) x3.2*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*FV-2 Fuerteventura*

The missing link of FV-2 south of Costa Calma on Fuerteventura (Canarias) opened to traffic today.

It looks like a true desert motorway.

I scooped some pics from Twitter:


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Why on google map fv1 is signed in yellow as a local road and fv1 and fv2 in red as a main road ?


----------



## verreme

^^ Because Google Maps gets it wrong very often.


----------



## MichiH

arctic_carlos said:


> The Fomento website already considers that the new A-23 section Sábiñanigo west - Sábiñanigo east (8.6 km) is under construction. An official press release hasn't been published yet, but I guess it will be uploaded on Tuesday or Wednesday (we have a very long weekend ahead in Spain, from tonight until Sunday - in Madrid until Monday). In any case, actual construction must start before next Thursday, December 12, or the Environmental Impact Assessment for that section will expire...
> 
> According to the local press, the section will be ready in 40 months (opening in Spring 2023).


Any news on this? Is the section "under construction" now or did building permits expire?


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Construction is about to start. The contract for the control and surveillance of the works (dated December 5) was published yesterday in Spain's official gazette: https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-B-2019-53483

There's no official press release yet about the beginning of the works, but I guess that they will make some kind of legal fiction to declare that construction started before December 12.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*TF-1 & TF-5*



arctic_carlos said:


> Changing from one island to another, completion of the Tenerife upgraded ring road (_Anillo insular de Tenerife_) is now closer, after the construction contract of the 11.3 km missing section (connecting TF-5 in El Tanque with TF-1 in Santiago del Teide) was awarded yesterday (€ 240 M).
> 
> The section will mostly be a 1+1 road, but there will be a *5 km twin-tube tunnel* (called Erjos tunnel), with 2 lanes in each tube. Construction is supposed to start in late November (the environmental assessment report expires in December).
> 
> Source: https://www.eldia.es/tenerife/2019/10/18/gobierno-canario-adjudica-ute-fcc/1017649.html


Construction started on November 25. The 5 km long Erjos tunnel (2 tubes with 2 lanes in each tube) will have motorway standards.

Source: https://www.eldia.es/tenerife/2019/11/25/comienzan-obras-anillo-insular-tenerife/1027820.html


----------



## g.spinoza

I fail to see the point of a 1+1 road with 2+2 tunnel.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> I fail to see the point of a 1+1 road with 2+2 tunnel.


According to EU regulation, you need emergency tubes et cetera. And in case of construction works / renovation of a tube et cetera, you can still use one tube with two-way traffic. But you could also do it the _German way_: Buidling a new route with a full road tunnel tube plus an emergency tube which costs almost as much as a full second tube. For a road with AADT of about 20,000 vehicles/day :lol:

If the AADT is "low", it can make sense to build the road outside of the tunnel with one carriageway only. You can save some money by building just bridges or viaducts for one carriageway only. Not that much money though.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Directive 2004/54/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on minimum safety requirements for tunnels in the Trans-European Road Network

However this directive only applies to the Trans-European Road Network (TERN). 

This tunnel is not part of the Trans-European Road Network. TF-1 was adopted into the 1996 version of the TERN, but only between Santa Cruz and Tenerife South Airport. More recent versions of TERN do not show TF-1/TF-5 on the west side of Tenerife to be part of the TERN.

However it may be possible that Spanish implementation of the directive into national legislation made it apply to all tunnels, or at least a wider scope of tunnels than those defined in the 1996 version of the TERN. 

For example; the Netherlands has implemented this directive to apply to every single tunnel over 250 meters in length, which is a much more strict than only tunnels over 500 meters within the TERN.


----------



## g.spinoza

My point is, the tunnel is going to be the most expensive part of that route, so making all the road directly 2+2 is not going to cost dramatically more.


----------



## CNGL

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Construction is about to start. The contract for the control and surveillance of the works (dated December 5) was published yesterday in Spain's official gazette: https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-B-2019-53483
> 
> There's no official press release yet about the beginning of the works, but I guess that they will make some kind of legal fiction to declare that construction started before December 12.


They declared the section as being under construction also on December 5, even though no works are to be seen yet. At least that was reported on Nevasport forum (which is chiefly a skiing one).

Meanwhile during the long weekend last week once again traffic jams formed despite the motorway across the Monrepos pass being already open. They just have moved to the Lanave-Sabiñanigo South section, where construction is still to be put up for tender (again).


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## ChrisZwolle

*AP-9 Puente de Rande*

I visited Galicia this summer and I stopped by the Rande Bridge of AP-9 to take some photos. Which wasn't so easy, as the area has dense foliage. Luckily, there was a stair leading down to the sea and it was low tide so the shore was more exposed and accessible. 

The Rande Bridge opened in 1981 with 4 lanes. It was recently expanded with new outer carriageways in 2017. There is a 1+2+2+1 configuration on the bridge. 

1. The underside, you can see the new outer spans. 

AP-9 Puente de Rande 01 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. Seen from N-554.

AP-9 Puente de Rande 05 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

AP-9 Puente de Rande 07 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

AP-9 Puente de Rande 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Peines

*M-40 / M-607 Interchange demolition and works*

*M-40 / M-607 Interchange demolition*

Some updates about the demolition of the flyover link between the M-40 and the M-607 due to structural problems, the works started on August as maintenance works but some structural problems were detected so is decided by _fomento _to demolish and rebuild the entire flyover (M-607 to M-40 North A-1, Airport, A-2...).









*
Quoted posts from Asfaltolandia | Autopistas de circunvalación, M-40, M-45, M-50, M-60 *



juanantz said:


> Cortes este fin de semana en un ramal de la M40 para el desmontaje del tramo de mayor longitud del puente:
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> https://www.madridiario.es/afecciones-trafico-en-la-m-40-por-obras-en-el-nudo-con-la-m-607.html





juanantz said:


> Aquí se ve justamente como están desmontando el puente a la altura de la M40, pero la imagen solo se actualiza cada varios minutos:
> 
> http://www.dgt.es/es/el-trafico/camaras-de-trafico/madrid/m-40/pk-058.000-d.shtml
> 
> 
> Y aquí se ve el desvío que han hecho este fin de semana en la M40 para pasar el tráfico de un sentido a otro mientras lo desmontan:
> 
> http://www.dgt.es/es/el-trafico/camaras-de-trafico/madrid/m-607/pk-013.100-d.shtml
> 
> 
> 
> Ahí están dándole ahora, las piezas del lado derecho ya desmontadas y apiladas a un lado para ser despiezadas:
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> 
> Tiene que ser curioso ver como trocean el puente para bajarlo con la mega grúa. ¿Como harán para cortar las secciones? Paso por ahí todos los días M40-->M607 Sur y en el giro de incorporación se veían las secciones cortadas con bastante precisión (que no es una demolición a porrazos vaya). Luego ya en el suelo lo trocean para llevárselo.
> 
> 
> Edit
> 
> Bajando la primera pieza del lado izquierdo:





juanantz said:


> Estado hoy por la mañana hace unos minutos, retirando la estructura que había sobre la M40 para el cortado de las piezas y su retirada:
> 
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> 
> Lo que hay en imagen ya no creo que tarden mucho más, durante el día de hoy imagino. Ahora tienen que avanzar hacia el tramo sobre la M-607 que precisamente es el que está más congestionado (imagino que lo harán también en fin de semana) y el fin del puente sobre las vías del tren.


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## ChrisZwolle

What is the reason for the 'structural problems'? If I'm correct, that flyover is only 25 years old (opened in 1994 when M-40 opened between M-607 and A-1).

This is a rather significant problem, it is a 2-lane flyover that carries a lot of commuter traffic, arguably the busiest turning movement at that interchange.


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## alserrod

Last Spring, Aragonese government cut down this brigde

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.398...81.926216&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

it was supposed to be for 5 months and I think it will be longer for 7 or 8 months. It had some defaults and they wanted to repair and enlarge at the same time.

Gelsa and surroundings were isolated with their neighbours. Bus service is driving via north and they have to make a detour to reach there.


Last load test are ready and it is supposed to be opened this week.

It is 90 years old and hope another 90 years without major works


heraldo.es source


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## sponge_bob

g.spinoza said:


> My point is, the tunnel is going to be the most expensive part of that route, so making all the road directly 2+2 is not going to cost dramatically more.


You also have ~10km-12km of existing 1+1 south of the TF1 scheme. The TF5 north of the tunnel is also 1+1 for a bit. Can't remember how long that is. 

So even though the contract is for 6km of 1+1 road either side of the Erjos tunnel, with 5.5km of 2+2 Motorway grade tunnel in the middle, you would have at least 20km of 1+1, and a few short 2+2 tunnels elsewhere, to address.

The junctions on the 1+1 sections of the road are pretty hefty too so they all need to be upgraded as well as adding the extra carriageway. It would not surprise me if all this required another €240m of expenditure, should it prove necessary in future.


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## sponge_bob

I forgot to mention one other thing, the Erjos tunnel is being built on the steep side of Spains highest mountain at 3-400m above sea level (and only around 5km from the last volcano in Tenerife around 100 years ago) . This ain't Meseta.


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## Highway89

Dualling of the access to the Valencia-Manises airport (N-220)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205547871635947522


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## ChrisZwolle

Another project I find amazing they can do for only € 91 million.


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## verreme

A bike lane. That's a first for such a project in Spain. I hope it's not a last, too.


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## Highway89

Opening of a new stretch of the SE-40 (€103.6M). Now it's possible to go from Madrid to Cádiz without using the SE-30.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207634167569297409


MichiH said:


> *SE40:* Torrequinto (A376) – Carretera de la Isla (A4) 8.1km (? to 19th December 2019) – ? – map








Also, toll booths are starting to be dismantled on the AP-7 in the Valencia Region: https://www.lasprovincias.es/comunitat/empieza-desmantelamiento-20191219235827-ntvo.html


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## ChrisZwolle

It appears to be somewhat common that the official names are not signposted, or they use a different name in reality.

For example, the official name of SE-40, as defined by law is _Circunvalación del área metropolitana de Sevilla._

However the signs show _Circunvalación exterior de Sevilla_.


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## Highway89

Fomento has announced that they've been authorised to put out to tender a stretch of the A-68 east of Zaragoza. It's mostly a dualling of the N-232 between El Burgo de Ebro and Fuentes de Ebro, 18.7 km for 65.8M


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1208080709975457793

Besides, the ministry of environment is studying a refurbishment of the Cuenca-Teruel national road, including bypasses, etc. Maybe the Spanish administration has put an end to its autovía-or-nothing (® verreme) policy?










Source: https://www.miteco.gob.es/es/calidad-y-evaluacion-ambiental/temas/evaluacion-ambiental/default.aspx

(Go to Consulta de Proyectos>Tipo>Carreteras>Buscar)


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## 1772

This might be slightly off-topic, but a question for our spanish forumers; if one is to take a car from Madrid to Marbella in early January; are winter tyres needed or is there no chance of snow? 
I haven't gone there but I assume the road goes in some high altitute terrain. I'm taking a sports car so I hope I won't have to risk going through snow. 

Thanks.


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## alserrod

No, you needen't have to take them. It is not mandatory and recommended only in areas where it will snow. 
They are so few days that chains or other device to let you cross any snowed road are enough...if it snows.

99,99% surely you will not see snow.
Just in case you can buy them in any petrol station (cheaper than adding to your rental car) but for sure, except in the case you go to Sierra Nevada, forget about them and enjoy the sun


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## verreme

N-232 in Fuentes de Ebro was built with space reservation for a second carriageway and you can see there's room for it so this should be an extremely cheap job.

It's good that they are upgrading the Cuenca-Teruel road instead of building a motorway. There were plans to extend A-40 back in the 2000s but times have changed.


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## ChrisZwolle

€ 65.8 million for 18.7 kilometers = € 3.5 million/km. Yes that's cheap 

Though I believe we've seen entirely new autovías been built for that price per kilometer in some locations.


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## ChrisZwolle

*N-625 Riaño*

N-625 crosses the Riaño Reservoir in León province. The reservoir was built over a prolonged period from 1965 to 1987, it is my understanding that not much happened in the 1960s and 1970s and most of the reservoir was built between 1982 and 1987. I assume the bridge is from that period.

The original village of Riaño disappeared under water, it was rebuilt higher up the bank in its present form. It has a population of 470, though is a village of regional significance due to being on the crossroads of N-621 and N-625.


N-625 Riaño 08 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-625 Riaño 10 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-625 Riaño 11 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-625 Riaño 15 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-625 Riaño 16 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-625 Riaño 17 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## alserrod

The bridge was built LATER ( and cars had to make a detour via Guardo for a while)

If you wish, I will look for time and write the full history


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## 1772

alserrod said:


> No, you needen't have to take them. It is not mandatory and recommended only in areas where it will snow.
> They are so few days that chains or other device to let you cross any snowed road are enough...if it snows.
> 
> 99,99% surely you will not see snow.
> Just in case you can buy them in any petrol station (cheaper than adding to your rental car) but for sure, except in the case you go to Sierra Nevada, forget about them and enjoy the sun


Thank you. That's what I thought, but it's nice to get it confirmed. kay:


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## alserrod

It is enough to glance weather forecast around some towns in your journey.

It is not the best app but search for "aemet" in play store. They are official data (and most of newspapers use that source).

If temperature is over 5 in all locations besides motorway (choose randomly one every 50 km) really no problems


In addition, traffic app is quite bad but it has some online webcams and weather info


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## alserrod

The full history about Riaño

Riaño damn was projected in the 1960ish or maybe earlier. AFAIK, all lands and houses were bought and payed according to prices in those years. Main social problem was people didn't was really awared they would have to leave their houses 20 years later and hadn't enough information about what to do. They could even have bought an appartment in a city but they were allowed to have their properties until damn was finished.

In the early 1980ish it was known some power plants in the North were halted because politics and even terrorism. This damn was under slow construction (there was a little tunnel besides the damn and this was former N-621: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.931...4!1s5wXjU9KSM6kj3oEW994pDA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 )

Suddenly, due to some attacks, government required to demolish all houses. Nine villages were down (eight and a half, in the case of Buron, only partially: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.024...4!1sJO5ujmEWpV7DP0SRSNlQ1Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 In maps picture is late Spring and damn is full... half of village was under waters and the village has developped houses in the opposite direction). 
Riaño was built again just above in the hill, Pedrosa refused and their territory was divided between Boca de Huergano and Riaño, and Buron remained building in the opposite side).

Beams for the Riaño bridge were moved to Palencia surroundings by train and later by truck. It was the only possibility (not available from Leon due to the tunnel, nor from Santander or Oviedo due to mountain passes).
The most difficult point to cross was this small bridge

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.970...4!1sI5Gr8kOlaKMDJid5FPBufg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Trucks had a head-booth and a rear-booth with a huge beam in the middle. They were able to elevate beams over bridge stone fence.... but being a child, I remember once a truck was blocked in the middle of the bridge and isolated all the area for half a day.

15 years later... current bridge was built (I would have built that bridge before all works, for sure!!!).

Being Riaño bridge under construction and houses demolished, the damn was closed on December 31st 1987. On 1988 they would have to make more procedures according to EU regulations, thus... New Years' Eve.

N-621 was shut down in the damn for a while. I do not remember for how long... maybe 3-4 months. I will ask.

In those months, Riaño damn had few water. Water couldn't reach Riaño while the works... and when bridge was finished, damn increased just for a while due to some storcks in the area. They waited till they were gone with their babies to fill all the damn.

Some other details

Horcadas and Carande are quite small villages which depends from Riaño municipality. They are the only two ones that remain and those who "won" in the area (nobody won indeed). They didn't had road, just a paved path from Riaño and since 1988 they had national road and public transport.


This small road coming from Prioro
https://www.google.com/maps/place/2...e46696edd49a44c!8m2!3d42.9727528!4d-4.9253082

was built around 1994 or so, a lot of years after damn was finished. Reason was Prioro village was almost isolated. They had to cross one mountain pass to go to Riaño via Pedrosa del Rey (under waters nowadays, just 4 km away from Riaño), and they had to cross... three ones.

They have to make a detour according to 1980 but at least no longer mountain passes (except last one) with this road.


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## ChrisZwolle

Thanks. 

Just to add, it's called a dam, not a damn


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## alserrod

LOL

DAMM indeed!!!!


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## geogregor

^^

I like that beer, had quite a few when I was in Galcia in September


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-1*

What is the deal with the changeable name signs on A-1 between Madrid and Burgos? Almost all of them appear to be mechanical rotational signs that would be able to display a different message. Autovía Madrid - Burgos vs. Autovía del Norte?


A-1 Aranda de Duero - Burgos 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## alserrod

To be crazy.

When first "autovías" where built, almost all of them had any city, region, area name (A-2 = Autovía de Aragón, A-3 = Autovía de Valencia, A-4, Autovía de Andalucía and so on. Even Autovía de Castilla Tordesillas-Burgos). They were renamed to points (North motorway, north-east motorway and so on).

I see... no standarized!!


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> What is the deal with the changeable name signs on A-1 between Madrid and Burgos? Almost all of them appear to be mechanical rotational signs that would be able to display a different message. Autovía Madrid - Burgos vs. Autovía del Norte?
> 
> []https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49222323947_fc3cf0fb61_b.jpg[/]
> A-1 Aranda de Duero - Burgos 05 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> []https://i.imgur.com/rOHnhoz.jpg[/]


The other side tells truck drivers to take the next exit to an "aparcamiento de emergencia" (emergency parking area or whatever they're called in English). So, it's only in case of snow and other adverse weather conditions that they turn around.

Examples:
Lerma emergency parking area (the 2nd picture you posted):
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.0405936,-3.7556041,834m/data=!3m1!1e3

Villariezo emergency parking area:
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.284282,-3.7039548,831m/data=!3m1!1e3
Sign:
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.2799...4!1sXygxRvttWrtqNRW0Gro6QA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Location of _aparcamientos de emergencia_:








Source: http://beta.sigcar.es/sigc.php


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## ChrisZwolle

*AS-117 Puerto de Tarna*

I took some photos of the _Puerto de Tarna_, a 1490 meter high pass on the border of Asturias and Castilla y León. These photos are from the Asturian side.

1. View from the road

AS-117 Puerto de Tarna 02 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. A rock landform

AS-117 Puerto de Tarna 03 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. AS-117.

AS-117 Puerto de Tarna 04 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. View over AS-117 and the Asturian highlands.

AS-117 Puerto de Tarna 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Peines

*M-40 / M-607 Interchange demolition and works*

More updates on M-40 North & M-607... they just cut the flyover into pieces!

_Quoted post from Asfaltolandia | Autopistas de circunvalación, M-40, M-45, M-50, M-60._



Andy_43890 said:


> Le faltaban las primeras imágenes nocturnas de la demolición del viaducto desde los primeros vanos de hace dos semanas:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202902373951250433
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> 
> Lo podemos mirar mas cerca de que se le ha cortado un trozo del tablero. Desconozco cual es la técnica del corte de tablero.





cgvillar said:


> Con cadena de diamantes





juanantz said:


> Parece que están a punto de bajar la última pieza del lado izquierdo de la M40 (entre la M40 y la entrada desde la M607):
> 
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> Después de esto imagino que tendrán que pasar la tochogrúa al otro lado de la M40.
> 
> 
> 
> Nuestros amigos de la DGT nos enfocan a la máquina que está troceando las piezas que se han ido depositando tras ser bajadas de los pilares:





juanantz said:


> Ya están preparando el terreno entre la M40 y la M607, ahora mismo con focos trabajando en esa zona (a la derecha de la imagen):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Están poniendo las estructuras de soporte provisionales bajo el tablero.
> 
> 
> Y la DGT que ya nos enfoca una de las cámaras para tener buenas vistas de la operación:
> 
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> 
> En la imagen la M40 (la que tiene la fecha impresa sobre ella), por debajo de esta la M607 con su atasco dirección Madrid y al fondo el puente a desmontar. A la derecha se ve como están allanando el terreno.


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## alserrod

Last time I was in Tarna I reached from Leon side to the summit to play with snow (part in Leon, part in Asturias) and have a snack in the little bar there's there.

The pass has another road that remains up an up in the Leon side.

By hearth, there are 4, 180º curves in the Asturias side, aren't they?


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## adevahi

About last section opened of SE-40 (few days ago): it seems that the signage located in Avenida de las Universidades indicates the different directions uncorrectly. If you go from Dos Hermanas to Montequinto, it does say to take right side of a roundabout to go to Cádiz (while it should indicate left), and it says left side to go to Utrera (it should be indicated at right). Is it a very common fail?


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## Highway89

A real-time on board video of the Eastern branch of the SE-40 counter-clockwise (first 12 minutes)


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A33:* Caudete-East – Caudete (A31) 3.2km (? to Late 2019) [southbound] – ? – map


It's indicated on wikipedia that the southbound carriageway will be opened in 2020. I couldn't find any proof in the linked sources though.



MichiH said:


> *SG20:* Segovia-North (A601) – east of Segovia-South (AP61) 8.4km (May 2016 to December 2019) – ? – map


It was reported in Mid November that they were optimistic to finish the section by the end of the year as contracted but due to bad weather, there is a delay of a few weeks.


I don't expect any additional motorway (or expressway) opening by December 31. In total, about 130km have been opened in 2019 (including 2nd carriageway openings)


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## MichiH

DEL (I got an error message 'no thread specified', I wrote it again and then realized, that the first attempt worked...)


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## ChrisZwolle

*León*

There are a lot of signs of the _Junta de Castilla de León_ which are vandalized. I visited the northern portions of León and almost every sign like this was vandalized.


Carretera autonómica Castilla y León 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


Carretera autonómica Castilla y León 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Carretera autonómica Castilla y León 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


Carretera autonómica Castilla y León 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


Carretera autonómica Castilla y León 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are a lot of signs of the _Junta de Castilla de León_ which are vandalized. I visited the northern portions of León and almost every sign like this was vandalized.


They all seem to be CL roads, are there any CL roads in Castille or are they all located in the province of Leon???


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## ChrisZwolle

CL roads are owned by the _Junta de Castilla y León_, so they can be found throughout the entire autonomous community. 

3-digit LE roads are also owned by the autonomous community. 4-digit LE roads are owned by the León provincial government.

Here's one in Ávila province. While having the AV prefix, this road is owned by the Castilla y León government.


AV-941 Castilla y León by European Roads, on Flickr

Generally speaking, there are several tiers of autonomous roads;

* tier 1: basic network, CL prefix
* tier 2: secondary network, provincial prefix (AV, BU, LE, etc.)
* tier 3: tertiary network, provincial prefix

Then you have the actual provincial roads, I guess you can call those tier 4 roads, they usually have a 4-digit number with a provincial prefix, though this may vary by region.


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## adevahi

Several people from the province of León (one of the nine provinces of Castilla y León) want León to be separated from the others, or to be separated from some others except Salamanca and Zamora, or to be separated from the others and joining Asturias.
It's like an internal independence problem, and it comes from years ago. In 19th Century until 1983, Castilla y León didn't exist like today, it was like shown below (Castilla La Vieja):










In the map, Canary Islands and the name of Murcia are missing.


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## Highway89

^^ Some maps even include Valladolid and Palencia as part of León.


1956 - Enseñanza Elemental, mapa by Archivo Digital Lliones, en Flickr


1970 - Juego de Iluminacion by Archivo Digital Lliones, en Flickr

Historically, the western border of the county of Castile was the Pisuerga river.



















Anyway, *FELIZ NAVIDAD* :cheers:


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## ChrisZwolle

>> https://www.ccma.cat/324/la-incogni...el-manteniment-de-lautopista/noticia/2973739/

According to a map in this article, C-32 and C-33 north of Barcelona will also become toll free in August 2021. Not just AP-2 and AP-7. 

Apparently this is one single concession?


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## alserrod

I really do not know. I think I have read no expiring was considered in Catalonia


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## ChrisZwolle

*V-21 Valencia*

I found this photo on Twitter. It is what is today V-21 north of Valencia. 

It shows that there already was a higher standard road before the motorway was constructed in the 1970s. My guess is that this was a bypass of the original N-340 which travels through many towns between Valencia and Puçol. I wonder when it was constructed.

This was the major transit route through Valencia until A-7 was built around the city in 1990-1992 (as discussed recently). It became N-221 after Valencia was bypassed, and was later renumbered to V-21, I assume with the 2003 renumbering of Spanish roads.


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> >> https://www.ccma.cat/324/la-incogni...el-manteniment-de-lautopista/noticia/2973739/
> 
> According to a map in this article, C-32 and C-33 north of Barcelona will also become toll free in August 2021. Not just AP-2 and AP-7.
> 
> Apparently this is one single concession?


Yes it's called Invicat and it's managed by Abertis.

There's a hot political debate on this. The Catalan Regional Government (Generalitat de Catalunya) wants to introduce a vignette for these roads based on each car's environmental sticker (yes, we also have stickers :nuts and it wants the Spanish Central Government to follow this model in _all_ roads (not only former toll motorways but all of them). However the Spanish Central Government (well the one in charge since there's no formal Government yet) hasn't decided anything yet.


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## ChrisZwolle

I found this photo of the new toll station on AP-7 near Vila-seca / Salou. It will be put into service 1/1/2020, after the rest of AP-7 to Valencia becomes toll-free so they needed a new mainline toll station at the end of the remaining concession.









https://www.diarimes.com/es/noticia...uita_entre_vila_seca_alicante_74479_1093.html

Are there any photos of a new toll station on AP-7 near Alicante? The mainline toll plaza to Alicante is on A-70, but traffic continuing on AP-7 around Alicante must receive a ticket to pay the toll.

Unless they have devised a system similar to AP-9, where through traffic doesn't get a ticket, but is assumed to have traveled the entire length of the toll road. Traffic that does have a ticket came from one of the intermediate interchanges.


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## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> Unless they have devised a system similar to AP-9, where through traffic doesn't get a ticket, but is assumed to have traveled the entire length of the toll road. Traffic that does have a ticket came from one of the intermediate interchanges.


That's actually an incredibly clever idea. No chance of it happening in Poland, then


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## Highway89

ChrisZwolle said:


> [...]
> 
> Are there any photos of a new toll station on AP-7 near Alicante? The mainline toll plaza to Alicante is on A-70, but traffic continuing on AP-7 around Alicante must receive a ticket to pay the toll.
> 
> Unless they have devised a system similar to AP-9, where through traffic doesn't get a ticket, but is assumed to have traveled the entire length of the toll road. Traffic that does have a ticket came from one of the intermediate interchanges.


It will be toll-free temporarily, until the new toll plaza is built:



> El Ministeri de Foment aplicarà _*bonificacions i gratuïtats temporals*_ als vehicles en determinats trajectes i trams de la circumval·lació d'Alacant a partir de l’1 de gener, davant de la supressió del peatge en el tram de l'AP-7 que dona continuïtat a la via fins a València.
> 
> Es tracta d'una *mesura temporal per la necessitat de construir una nova àrea de cobrament a l'altura del Campello* que Foment aplicarà per a “no generar un perjuí als usuaris de l'autopista”.


https://apuntmedia.es/va/noticies/s...e-dalguns-trams-de-la-circumvallacio-dalacant


----------



## Highway89

*1,098* people died in traffic accidents in 2019. That's 90 fewer people than in 2018.

Of whom:
115 pedestrians (-22)
40 cyclists (+4), 16 of whom weren't using a helmet
264 bikers (+47), 11 of whom weren't using a helmet
116 car/van drivers (20%) weren't using the seat belt































__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1212721437410283521


----------



## g.spinoza

Highway89 said:


> *1,098* people died in traffic accidents in 2019. That's 90 fewer people than in 2018.


Yes but only "in vias interurbanas", so out of cities.


----------



## alserrod

True...

Number of fatalities has been considered always out of cities or towns (may a road cross a city it will be considered, but nothing inside their streets)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> Yes but only "in vias interurbanas", so out of cities.


Indeed, that makes these figures pretty impossible to compare with statistics from other countries. 

However you do see one trend all across Western Europe: the reduction of fatalities has stalled. Norway posted preliminary figures yesterday and they also had no further decline for the third year. Austria also posted figures from the motorway network and they also saw a slight increase compared to a steep decline earlier.

I think there are a couple of important factors;
* smartphone adoption means more distracted driving. This is the leading cause for fatal accidents in many countries now.
* passive safety equipment has been introduced in the vast majority of the car fleet compared to 10 or 20 years ago. Active safety equipment has yet to make a significant impact on the overall figures.
* driving under influence remains a problem, maybe less so for alcohol than in the past, but increasingly drugs and other substances (nitrous oxide in the Netherlands for example).


----------



## Highway89

g.spinoza said:


> Yes but only "in vias interurbanas", so out of cities.


True, also they're only counting those who died no later than 24 h after the accident.

I've been able to find the 2018 statistics including vías urbanas (streets) and people who died within 30 days after the accident: http://www.dgt.es/es/seguridad-vial...s/accidentes-30dias/tablas-estadisticas/2018/


In 2018, *1,806* people died in a traffic accident in Spain (1,306 1,317+489), not counting those who died more than 30 days after the accident.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*N-4*



MichiH said:


> *N-IV:* Dos Hermanas-South (AP4) – Los Palacios-North 8.4km (2015/16 to 2020) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


Even though AP-4 became toll-free yesterday, construction goes ahead on the delayed N-IV twinning (actually, a new motorway alignment) between Dos Hermanas and Los Palacios. It's expected to open in summer 2020.

I guess that the new section will open as A-4, unless the current AP-4 is renumbered as A-4.

Source: https://www.doshermanasinfo.com/fom...-iv-dos-hermanas-los-palacios-para-el-verano/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's progressed too far to make it worthwhile to cancel it? This section seems superfluous now that AP-4 became toll-free, on the other hand a large part of Los Palacios is not well served by the AP-4 exit. Most of the commercial / industrial base is on the west and north side of town (near N-IV) and traffic would have to drive through dense parts of the town to reach AP-4.


----------



## Highway89

Two new junctions will be built in Málaga province:


-AP-46 x MA-3404 in Casabermeja:








https://www.google.es/maps/@36.9029672,-4.453758,1795m/data=!3m1!1e3


-A-7 x MA-20 in Málaga:








https://www.google.es/maps/@36.7410149,-4.4488978,1799m/data=!3m1!1e3



arctic_carlos said:


> Even though AP-4 became toll-free yesterday, construction goes ahead on the delayed N-IV twinning (actually, a new motorway alignment) between Dos Hermanas and Los Palacios. It's expected to open in summer 2020.
> 
> *I guess that the new section will open as A-4, unless the current AP-4 is renumbered as A-4.*
> 
> Source: https://www.doshermanasinfo.com/fom...-iv-dos-hermanas-los-palacios-para-el-verano/



Or maybe it'll open as N-4?


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ That's indeed the other option. If AP-4 is renumbered A-4, the section currently under construction could remain N-4. But if AP-4 stays AP-4, I guess A-4 will be used for the new section (that's the number assigned for that section in the Fomento website for motorways/roads under construction: https://portalweb.fomento.es/VisorGeograficoDGT/PrincipalesObras).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

AP-1 has not been renumbered so far. 

AP could still mean 'Autopista' instead of 'Autopista de Peaje'. Some APs had toll-free sections already.


----------



## alserrod

Full free (not with Via-T or so)?????


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> AP-1 has not been renumbered so far.
> 
> AP could still mean 'Autopista' instead of 'Autopista de Peaje'. Some APs had toll-free sections already.


 You're right, there were already some short toll-free sections in AP motorways (at least in AP-7 and AP-9), but I hope they find a way to keep a coherent system (maybe just renumber with A-XX numbers all the AP-XX motorways that become toll-free?), because otherwise the system would lack any consistency... (not that it has much, nowadays, when it comes to motorways managed by the autonomous communities :lol.

As I said in the Spanish forum, in my opinion AP-7 between Salou and Alicante (including Alicante outer ring) should become *A-7*, A-7 between Xàtiva and Alicante outer ring should become *A-77* (it's already numbered that way between Alicante and Alicante outer ring), and A-7 between Valencia and Xàtiva should become *A-35*. 

The existing A-7 sections near Castellón could get a *CS-XX* number, while the A-7 sections near Tarragona could become *T-20*.


----------



## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> Full free (not with Via-T or so)?????


Yes. AP-7 is completely toll-free between El Papiol and Mollet and between Fuengirola and Torremolinos, but it's not numbered A-7.


----------



## adevahi

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's progressed too far to make it worthwhile to cancel it? This section seems superfluous now that AP-4 became toll-free, on the other hand a large part of Los Palacios is not well served by the AP-4 exit. Most of the commercial / industrial base is on the west and north side of town (near N-IV) and traffic would have to drive through dense parts of the town to reach AP-4.


I agree that is not the most needed thing in Sevilla, but don't forget it's only 8km long this new highway. Not a really high waste of money.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Puerto de San Isidro*

The _Puerto de San Isidro_ is a 1520 meter high mountain pass on the border of Asturias and León. Roads AS-253 and LE-331 run across it. There are ski areas at the pass. 

This was a really nice mountain pass, you look at it on a map and you don't always get a good idea of what it will look like, even on satellite imagery. This one didn't disappoint.

Location










AS-253 Puerto de San Isidro - Asturias 16 by European Roads, on Flickr


AS-253 Puerto de San Isidro - Asturias 12 by European Roads, on Flickr


AS-253 Puerto de San Isidro - Asturias 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


AS-253 Puerto de San Isidro - Asturias 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


AS-253 Puerto de San Isidro - Asturias 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


AS-253 Puerto de San Isidro - Asturias 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## alserrod

Hi Chris, as you said... Spanish road number deserves an own thread!!!

Here you are another nicetie!!
ALL snow-bars for winter in Spain are red or red-white-red-white... EXCEPT in Asturias where they are YELLOW

Have a glance in Leon side not far from San Isidro pass

It is red
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.064...4!1sofmpsdX4NCNSRlfYorTIIA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


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## Highway89

alserrod said:


> Here you are another nicetie!!
> ALL snow-bars for winter in Spain are red or red-white-red-white... EXCEPT in Asturias where they are YELLOW



Hold my beer...

Navarre, black & yellow (click to enlarge):


La Rioja, N-111 (State-owned road), red & yellow:


Same on the other side of the Piqueras pass (Soria, Castile & León)


These are used to mark the expansion joints. Also in La Rioja, AP-68


These have the same purpose, but are different (A-73, Burgos, Castile & León)


Also in Burgos (N-623) I saw these, in red, blue & white




The other poles along the N-623 are normal (red & white), but those on the right side have yellow reflective stripes


Same in the Cantabria side of the N-623



Other red & white poles:

Burgos, BU-V-xxxx road


Burgos, national roads


Soria, SO-xxx road


Álava (Basque Country), A-2xxx road


La Rioja, LR-xxx roads


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ In Catalonia they're red, white and green. Port de la Bonaigua (C-28):

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.6493...151.96512&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


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## ChrisZwolle

*Balcón de la Cardosa, Cantabria*

The _Balcón de la Cardosa_ is a scenic overlook along CA-280 in Cantabria. It's a pretty remote road, there was virtually no traffic on it.

Location










CA-280 Balcón de la Cardosa 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


CA-280 Balcón de la Cardosa 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


CA-280 Balcón de la Cardosa 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


CA-280 Balcón de la Cardosa 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Highway89

Works on the Ibeas de Juarros-Burgos stretch of the A-12 have been stopped for more than 2 years, so former landowners who had had their lands expropriated have the right to ask for them back -and are starting to do so.

The _autovía_ was to be built 8 m above the ground in order to avoid all existing roads and country lanes. Apparently the Contractor companies, once they won the bid, asked Fomento to lower the platform in order to save costs.




> Así que la estrategia fue clara, _*primero había que garantizarse las obras y después negociar un incremento del presupuesto con Fomento*_. Nada nuevo. Lo que ocurre es que ese diálogo con el Ministerio parece no tener fin, porque han transcurrido ya dos años y no hay noticia del reinicio de los trabajos. La obra ejecutada en el tramo se limita al desbroce de algunas fincas, un trabajo que a buen seguro habrá que repetir en el futuro, dado el tiempo que ha pasado desde que se llevó a cabo. *Lo que pretende la UTE en principio es bajar la cota del trazado, de forma que ello reduzca de forma drástica tanto el coste del movimiento de tierras como el de nuevas estructuras a ejecutar.*


https://www.diariodeburgos.es/notic...uelo-de-la-A-12-exigen-recuperar-sus-terrenos


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Wouldn't it be a good idea to rethink the current A-12 plans east of Burgos? Evidently they wanted A-12 close or over N-120, which passes over the 1150 meter high _Puerto de La Pedraja_.

However now that AP-1 is toll free, a new alignment farther north, on lower elevation, may be a better solution. It is 200 meters lower in elevation, wich reduces winter weather impact and it doesn't impact the forestry areas. And the amount of motorway kilometers to be constructed could be slightly less.

In addition, A-12 could feed into the underused BU-30 north of Burgos, instead of the busier A-1/A-62 on the south side of Burgos, meaning east-west traffic is distributed better around the city.


----------



## Little

Highway89 said:


> Works on the Ibeas de Juarros-Burgos stretch of the A-12 have been stopped for more than 2 years, so former landowners who had had their lands expropriated have the right to ask for them back -and are starting to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> The _autovía_ was to be built 8 m above the ground in order to avoid all existing roads and country lanes. Apparently the Contractor companies, once they won the bid, asked Fomento to lower the platform in order to save costs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.diariodeburgos.es/notic...uelo-de-la-A-12-exigen-recuperar-sus-terrenos


It's not that easy. The norm says that when it has passed 2 years, you can show your intentions of asking for your property back, but the government has the right to wait for another 2 years.


----------



## Reivajar

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Wouldn't it be a good idea to rethink the current A-12 plans east of Burgos? Evidently they wanted A-12 close or over N-120, which passes over the 1150 meter high _Puerto de La Pedraja_.
> 
> However now that AP-1 is toll free, a new alignment farther north, on lower elevation, may be a better solution. It is 200 meters lower in elevation, wich reduces winter weather impact and it doesn't impact the forestry areas. And the amount of motorway kilometers to be constructed could be slightly less.
> 
> In addition, A-12 could feed into the underused BU-30 north of Burgos, instead of the busier A-1/A-62 on the south side of Burgos, meaning east-west traffic is distributed better around the city.


Yes, I agree with you. Upgrading maybe the capacity of the current N-120 West of Ibeas de Guarros should be enough for commuting traffic. But for the A-12, expanding the current A-1 East of Rubena via Cerratón de Juarros for joining the N-120 close to Belorado should be a good option too. And I fell it can be cheaper if the Eastern access to Burgos becomes expensive because of the croplands as stated in the news.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Average speed check*

Apparently there are average speed checks on CL-613 and CL-615 in Palencia province since October 2017. They have additional green road markings.


----------



## Highway89

We talked about that (edit: the A-12 east of Burgos) on the regional forum of Castilla y León - La Rioja.




















The N-120 could be upgraded by adding some bypasses, service roads and grade-separated junctions, just like what they did on the N-111 south of Logroño:


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## adevahi

That is really close to famous Despeñaperros pass road. There is not a safe alternative route for the higwhay in this place.

(Examples:
https://www.google.es/maps/@38.3095...344.50287&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.es/maps/@38.3820...171.09865&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656)


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## ChrisZwolle

AP-7 recorded a 77% increase in traffic in the first week that tolls were scrapped: https://www.elperiodico.com/es/econ...to-un-77-tras-la-liberacion-de-peajes-7826827


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> Angry farmers are blockading (and demolishing) A-4 near La Carolina


Which reminds me, I have been meaning to ask what this pillar is doing here a few kms up the road from La Carolina, I noticed it last summer and forgot to ask.. It doesn't appear to be high enough to be part of a bridge over the motorway


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## ajch

Its a monument


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The media report that Gipuzkoa province is planning to introduce electronic tolls on A-636 (formerly: GI-632), the _Autovía de Deskarga_, in 2022. 

There are already electronic tolls on N-I and A-15 in Gipuzkoa province, but those are only for trucks. The tolls on A-636 will apply to passenger cars as well. 

Three toll gantries are planned:

* Beasain: € 0.38
* Ezkio: € 0.74
* Deskarga: € 1.41

Article: https://www.naiz.eus/en/actualidad/...vehiculos-en-la-a-636-entre-beasain-y-bergara


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## adevahi

ajch said:


> Its a monument


:lol::lol::lol:

Modern art increases its shocking effects every day. That reminds me that few days ago it happened exactly the opposite to me: I thought that there was a monument in the center of this roundabout but in fact it was a pillar for a future pedestrian bridge.


----------



## verreme

Stuu said:


> Which reminds me, I have been meaning to ask what this pillar is doing here a few kms up the road from La Carolina, I noticed it last summer and forgot to ask.. It doesn't appear to be high enough to be part of a bridge over the motorway





ajch said:


> Its a monument


It's actually a pillar of a former A-4 bridge that was kept as a memorial after the old alignment was decommissioned.

I believe there's a similar relic on the Monrepós pass along N-330, or perhaps was on N-III... I don't have the time to find it right now on Google Maps.

So it's not "pointless modern art" but actually some kind of awareness for road history


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> The media report that Gipuzkoa province is planning to introduce electronic tolls on A-636 (formerly: GI-632), the _Autovía de Deskarga_, in 2022.
> 
> There are already electronic tolls on N-I and A-15 in Gipuzkoa province, but those are only for trucks. The tolls on A-636 will apply to passenger cars as well.
> 
> Three toll gantries are planned:
> 
> * Beasain: € 0.38
> * Ezkio: € 0.74
> * Deskarga: € 1.41
> 
> Article: https://www.naiz.eus/en/actualidad/...vehiculos-en-la-a-636-entre-beasain-y-bergara


hno: Tolls on Deskarga motorway were the reason for a ridiculous catfight between Basque political parties and as usual it has turned out to be completely pointless.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Jaén unused bridge monument:


----------



## MichiH

My motorway u/c list has some projects with *unknown construction start date*. I'd like to add the date when it was u/c to the best of our knowledge, e.g. indicating "<= 2017". The u/c projects with unknown construction start date are:



MichiH said:


> *A33:* Caudete-East – Caudete (A31) 3.2km (? to 2020) [southbound] - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


On the list from the beginning in January 2014.
Should I indicate "<= 2013" or does anyone have a more precise date?




MichiH said:


> *A63:* Salas-East – Cornellana 7.3km (? to 2020) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


On the list from the beginning in January 2014.
Should I indicate "<= 2013" or does anyone have a more precise date?




MichiH said:


> *A32:* Torreperogil – Villacarrillo 13.6km (? to 2020?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


On the list from the beginning in January 2014.
Should I indicate "<= 2013" or does anyone have a more precise date?




MichiH said:


> *A32:* Villacarrillo – north of Villanueva del Arzobispo 17.2km (? to 2020?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


On the list from the beginning in January 2014.
Should I indicate "<= 2013" or does anyone have a more precise date?




MichiH said:


> *A33:* La Font de la Figuera (A35) – north of La Font de la Figuera 1km (? to 2020?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


On the list from the beginning in January 2014.
Should I indicate "<= 2013" or does anyone have a more precise date?




MichiH said:


> *A38:* Cullera – Favara (AP-7) 10km (? to 2020?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


On the list from the beginning in January 2014.
Should I indicate "<= 2013" or does anyone have a more precise date?




MichiH said:


> *GR43:* Pinos Puente – Atarfe (A44) 10.6km (? to 2020?) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


On the list since 2014 but works were already suspended.
Should I indicate "<= 2013" or does anyone have a more precise date?




MichiH said:


> *A63:* west of Salas – Salas-East 5km (? to Fall 2020) [2nd c/w] - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


On the list since 2017 but works were already suspended.
Should I indicate "<= 2016" or does anyone have a more precise date?




MichiH said:


> *SE40:* Carretera de la Isla (A4) – Coria del Rio ~5.5km (? to ?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


On the list from the beginning in January 2014.
Should I indicate "<= 2013" or does anyone have a more precise date?




MichiH said:


> *A63:* La Espina – west of Salas 7km (? to _suspended_) [2nd c/w] - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


On the list since 2017 but works were already suspended.
Should I indicate "<= 2016" or does anyone have a more precise date?




MichiH said:


> *CM41:* Illescas (CM43) – Borox-East 12km (? to _suspended_) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


On the list since 2016 but works were already suspended and it's indicated being a _real estate bubble times_ project.
Should I indicate "<= 2015" or "<= 2010?" or does anyone have a more precise date?




MichiH said:


> *CV50:* north of Vilamarxant – Benaguasil-West 3km (? to _suspended_) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


_According to Google Earth aerial footage, construction has been suspended since at least 2009_.
Should I indicate "<= 2009" or does anyone have a more precise date?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think these could be retrieved searching for news, as these type of works are typically widely reported in the Spanish media, pretty much every press release by Fomento got significant traction in the newspapers. 

My guess is many of these contracts were awarded just prior to the financial crisis, I think mostly in 2007-2009 and got canceled in 2010. 2010 was the year that many contracts got canceled, and most of those projects weren't very advanced at that time. 

See this report by El País: https://elpais.com/economia/2010/07/22/actualidad/1279783974_850215.html


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## ChrisZwolle

A-33: Caudete - A31 started on 28 May 2018: https://www.lavanguardia.com/local/...n-344-enlace-con-a-31-de-a-33-en-caudete.html 

This is also a longer section of A-33, from the west side of Caudete to A-31 (6.98 km). See the map in a press release. 

Satellite imagery shows that construction is underway along this alignment. Satellite imagery also shows that no construction commenced before this groundbreaking event in 2018, so while there may have been an earlier contract for that section, construction hadn't started at that time. 

Some contracts were canceled in 2010 that hadn't started construction yet.

----

A63: Salas - Cornellana: awarded on 21 March 2007: https://www.lne.es/general/1583/adj...alas-empresa-dragados-60-millones/504117.html

----

A-32 Torreperogil - Villacarillo: awarded in December 2008: https://lasvillas.mforos.com/372624/7624890-adjudicadas-obras-autovia-torreperogil-villacarrillo/

However no construction seems to have started until at least 2016 (latest available imagery). Only some expropriation of agricultural land is visible in satellite imagery.

A-32 Villacarillo - Villanueva del Arzobispo: awarded on 30 January 2009: https://www.europapress.es/andaluci...obispo-32-mas-64-millones-20090130125340.html

However, similarly, no construction has started until at least 2016.

Construction on those two segments was announced to have restarted in July 2017: https://www.europapress.es/andaluci...zobispo-finalizacion-2019-20170718135907.html


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-33: Caudete - A31 started on 28 May 2018: https://www.lavanguardia.com/local/...n-344-enlace-con-a-31-de-a-33-en-caudete.html


That's the neighboring section south (or west) of A31:



MichiH said:


> *A33:* Caudete (A31) – Caudete-West 7.0km (May 2018 to ?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


----------



## adevahi

MichiH said:


> My motorway u/c list has some projects with *unknown construction start date*. I'd like to add the date when it was u/c to the best of our knowledge, e.g. indicating "<= 2017". The u/c projects with unknown construction start date are:
> 
> *(...)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *SE40*: Carretera de la Isla (A4) – Coria del Rio ~5.5km (? to ?) - / OSM / prop / GM / SP
> 
> 
> 
> On the list from the beginning in January 2014.
> Should I indicate "<= 2013" or does anyone have a more precise date?
Click to expand...

They started in 2009. Source: https://www.diariodesevilla.es/sevi...lleva-esperando-10-anos-rio_0_1420358521.html
North tunnels: https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2009/06/05/pdfs/BOE-B-2009-19230.pdf
South tunnels: https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2009/04/23/pdfs/BOE-B-2009-13215.pdf

The precise date of opening will be the 22nd September 2041.

Talking seriously, the most important highway today in all southern Spain, and some far-leftist politicians are saying now that it shouldn't be built, meanwhile other leftist politicians are saying that it must be changed the whole project and built a bridge instead of the four tunnels already projected and which their construction started. Crazy.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's debatable whether SE-40 should be in the list of under construction motorways. I would suggest removing it, hardly any works have been executed for that project and the last works were done ~10 years ago with no new developments since, except for reconsidering the entire project or the scope of the project.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's debatable whether SE-40 should be in the list of under construction motorways. I would suggest removing it, hardly any works have been executed for that project and the last works were done ~10 years ago with no new developments since, except for reconsidering the entire project or the scope of the project.


I add projects when earth works start or the construction of a bridges starts. There is even a "completed" bridge on that SE40 section: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.302444,-5.9946697,238m/data=!3m1!1e3


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-38 Cullera - Favara: awarded in April 2008: https://www.lasprovincias.es/valencia/20080426/ribera/fomento-adjudica-obras-variante-20080426.html

----

GR-43 Pinos Puente - Atarfe: awarded in August 2008: https://www.granadahoy.com/granada/Fomento-adjudica-millones-Pinos-Puente-Atarfe_0_175783104.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*AS-260 Mirador del Fitu*

AS-260 is a road between Colungas and Arriondas in Asturias. It passes over an almost 600 meter high mountain pass, which has a scenic overlook, the _Mirador del Fitu_. It offers amazing views over the ocean on one side and the Cantabrian Mountains on the other.


AS-260 Mirador del Fitu 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


AS-260 Mirador del Fitu 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


AS-260 Mirador del Fitu 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


AS-260 Mirador del Fitu 08 by European Roads, on Flickr


AS-260 Mirador del Fitu 10 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## CNGL

Now that we are determining dates of construction start for several sections, I suggest to list the Lanave-Sabiñanigo South section of A-23 as started in 2010 when the contract is finally awarded (and God knows when, since it's not even up for tender), since expropiations and even some works were done back then, albeit as two separate sections. Yes, this 1.5 km section which is basically two bridges was previously intended as one contract!


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## MichiH

^^ I don't see any construction on that section (b/n the interchanges). Contracts are for lots, not for sections. A lot can be "more" than a section or "less" than a section.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A-6 Madrid*

A-6 in Madrid. No traffic due to the lockdown.


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## adevahi

The same in all the country. This is the link for the webcams of DGT installed in some motorways (firstly click on the province, later on the roda, and lastly on the picture you want to see):
http://www.dgt.es/es/el-trafico/camaras-de-trafico/


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## CNGL

Note that doesn't include Catalonia or the Basque Country, as they are competent over traffic matters in their respective territories.

It will be funny to see the empty roads tomorrow during what normally is rush hour. And now I notice, they haven't updated the camera atop the Monrepos pass, which is no longer on N-330 but on A-23. Also, in the camera description, the "direction" field only indicates the side of the road the camera is, as it can be turned to show the other (as it now happens with the one on A-2 near Cetina :naughty.


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## Highway89

A quick review of some Spanish roads the first working day under the national lockdown.

Madrid
M-40 ringroad









Barcelona

























Valencia

























Seville









Bilbao









Zaragoza









Málaga/Costa del Sol area









Murcia









Vigo









Oviedo









San Sebastián









Granada









Burgos (yep, it's snowing)









Logroño










Some rural motorways at specific places

A-1 Somosierra









A-1 Etzegarate









A-2 Medinaceli (A-15 junction)









A-2 Castellolí (near Montserrat)









A-3 leaving the Madrid metro area









A-3 Contreras









A-4 Despeñaperros









A-5 Miravete









A-6 Guadarrama









A-6 Pedrafita do Cebreiro









A-45 Pedrizas









A-52 Padornelo


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## Highway89

Once more, freight traffic seems to be the only one on rural motorways. And the number of trucks seems to be relatively similar to a normal day.


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## adevahi

I'm pretty sure truck drivers must be driving very confortably these days .


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## MacOlej

Yeah, as long as they don't have to cross any border. 

Visiting public toilets and bathrooms at fuel stations and rest areas must also be very comfortable for them...


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## alserrod

Is A-1 picture with a police control on motorways????


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## CNGL

Road construction is one of the very few things that continue at this moment. As expected, earthworks have already started on the Sabiñanigo East-West section of A-23.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Traffic congestion in Spain*

Spanish cities ranked by congestion index in Europe:

https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffi...ES,SE,CH,TR,UA,UK&population=LARGE,MEGA,SMALL

_1: Moscow 59%_
_19: Paris 39%_
81: Barcelona 29%
124: Granada 25%
135: Palma de Mallorca 24%
147: Madrid 23%
148: Santa Cruz de Tenerife 23%
169: Sevilla 21%
170: Murcia 21%
178: Valencia 20%
181: Málaga 20%
189: A Coruña 19%
198: Las Palmas 18%
199: Alicante 18%
209: Santander 17%
217: Gijón 16%
218: Pamplona 16%
221: Vigo 15%
227: Córdoba 14%
229: Vitoria-Gasteiz 14%
230: Cartagena 14%
231: Zaragoza 14%
232: San Sebastián 14%
234: Valladolid 13%
236: Oviedo 13%
237: Bilbao 13%
239: Cádiz 10%

Spain is notable due to the lack of traffic congestion compared to other European countries. The highest ranking city Barcelona is only the 81st worst congested city in Europe. Madrid ranks 147th. It is also ranking far lower than any other urban area with a similar population. 

Zaragoza and Bilbao are among the least congested urban areas in Europe, despite being sizable cities. Zaragoza has a population of 667,000 and Bilbao 345,000 and a sizable metro area of 1 million people.


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## D K

^^
Interesting. Any explanatory factor(s)?


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## g.spinoza

They have much more fast intra-city connections than other comparable cities in Europe.


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## adevahi

g.spinoza said:


> They have much more fast intra-city connections than other comparable cities in Europe.


That's not the reason, that's another consequence of the real reason, which in fact is the absence of low density areas in Spanish cities.


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## Suburbanist

adevahi said:


> That's not the reason, that's another consequence of the real reason, which in fact is the absence of low density areas in Spanish cities.


I think that helps too. Most Spanish metro areas have very little 'outer commuter belt' communities. Even when geography wouldn't be a challenge like in Zaragoza or Sevilla.

Among the large European countries, Spain also has (I believe) the highest share of households living in multi-story/multi-unit (>2) buildings. Twin houses or single houses are very rare.

Yet, they do have relatively good intra-city connections as pointed out, large avenues with 3 lanes per direction and over/underpasses and the like.


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## ChrisZwolle

adevahi said:


> That's not the reason, that's another consequence of the real reason, which in fact is the absence of low density areas in Spanish cities.


On the other hand, the only other cities that consistently rank low in the TomTom Congestion Index are many American cities, which are almost exclusively low density. And in fact many high-density cities world-wide rank worst in traffic congestion, Spain is an outlier in this regard.

Normally, the higher the density, the more trips generated per km². Except for the densest areas, this doesn't compensate for lower car usage.


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## Attus

Public transport in Madrid has quite a high modal share, and it helps obviously to keep congestions low. Public transport covers round 40% of all movements in the city itself, and round 30% is taken by car. I.e. even a 1:1 share could mean 1/6 more cars on the roads. 
Madrid has a very decent public transport network, 12+1 metro lines in round 300 km, and a metro-like commuter railways network (Cercanías), together delivering more than 3 millions of passengers daily. 
Barcelona has a similar situation. In Barcelona it's remarkable, that the amount of car movements has a strict sinking trend, there are significantly less car movements in Barcelona than ten years ago. Public transport has a dominant role, metro lines take passangers even from the suburbs into the city.

However, it does not explain low congestion rates of several other Spanish cities. Public transport has a pretty low share in Seville and has only a supplementary role in Zaragoza, for example.


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## alserrod

Zaragoza remains as one out of less congested cities despite to be the fifth city in population in Spain.

Reasons?. 
- it has a high density of population. It doesn't have skyscrapers but not single houses or small buildings of appartments. That means people can move to a lot of places on foot and, public transport has good frecuencies (with one medium range bus line you have the same population than in other cities)
- it has a small metropolitan area
- I bet there are more commuting movements centre-outside than outside-centre


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## Highway89

Seeing those numbers one can understand how important the new B-40 (Barcelona), A-44 (Granada), the SE-40 crossing over the Guadalquivir river (Seville) or the motorways around Murcia are.


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## ChrisZwolle

Attus said:


> Public transport in Madrid has quite a high modal share, and it helps obviously to keep congestions low. Public transport covers round 40% of all movements in the city itself, and round 30% is taken by car. I.e. even a 1:1 share could mean 1/6 more cars on the roads.
> Madrid has a very decent public transport network, 12+1 metro lines in round 300 km, and a metro-like commuter railways network (Cercanías), together delivering more than 3 millions of passengers daily.
> Barcelona has a similar situation. In Barcelona it's remarkable, that the amount of car movements has a strict sinking trend, there are significantly less car movements in Barcelona than ten years ago. Public transport has a dominant role, metro lines take passangers even from the suburbs into the city.


The public transport system alone doesn't explain why Spanish cities have much lower congestion than other European cities with similar public transport systems. 

Smaller cities do have less congestion, even relative to population, as you can clearly see in the congestion ranking. However Spanish cities are much lower (better) ranking than similar-sized cities elsewhere in Europe. 

Valencia ranks similar to much smaller cities like Bern, Leuven, Tilburg or Apeldoorn. By comparison, medium-sized urban areas like Dublin, Edinburgh or Poznan rank extremely high. 

For example, Germany has 2 cities ranking in the lowest 200-239 range. Spain has 12 cities. Likewise, Germany has 9 cities in the upper 100, Spain just one.


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## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> The public transport system alone doesn't explain why Spanish cities have much lower congestion than other European cities with similar public transport systems.
> 
> Smaller cities do have less congestion, even relative to population, as you can clearly see in the congestion ranking. However Spanish cities are much lower (better) ranking than similar-sized cities elsewhere in Europe.
> 
> Valencia ranks similar to much smaller cities like Bern, Leuven, Tilburg or Apeldoorn. By comparison, medium-sized urban areas like Dublin, Edinburgh or Poznan rank extremely high.
> 
> For example, Germany has 2 cities ranking in the lowest 200-239 range. Spain has 12 cities. Likewise, Germany has 9 cities in the upper 100, Spain just one.


Would the higher unemployment rate be a factor? The rate in Spain is 5% higher than Italy and a lot more than France, Germany and the UK. Which might mean there is 5-10% less demand on the roads than in an equivalent size city elsewhere


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## MacOlej

How many people in Spain really go back home during lunch breaks? I know it's a cultural thing that we here in Poland can't quite understand.

From transportation and ecology point of view it seems like a bit of a waste cause it doubles the commutes, fuel/energy spend etc.
Are there any green movements with slogans like "save the earth, spend your lunch break at the office or in a local restaurant around the corner"?


----------



## MattiG

adevahi said:


> So.... when I read you (before the maintenance of the forum), I thought about one more reason why Spanish figures are less affected by congestion according with the models, and it's related on what I'm quoting.
> ...


Very interesting chart. Finland lies somewhere between Germany and Sweden. The blue collar non-shift-work workday is usually 7-16, including a 60 minute lunch break. The white collar people typically have a 7:30 hours average work day plus a 30-minute lunch break. The working hours of the white collar people are typically flexible, usually varying from 7-15 to 9-17. The tradition of having a family dinner at 17 after the Patron has returned home has virtually gone. Both adults of the family usually work outside home, the work hours vary a lot, everyone has their hobbies at the evenings, thus no common time. Family lunches take place on weekends. (Or brunches: Adults have their brunch while the teenagers have their breakfast.)

There is not such a strict meal-time culture as in France, Italy and Spain, for instance. No problem to find a restaurant open in the afternoon before 20. The prime dinner time in restaurants is about 19-21.


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## alserrod

MacOlej said:


> How many people in Spain really go back home during lunch breaks? I know it's a cultural thing that we here in Poland can't quite understand.
> 
> From transportation and ecology point of view it seems like a bit of a waste cause it doubles the commutes, fuel/energy spend etc.
> Are there any green movements with slogans like "save the earth, spend your lunch break at the office or in a local restaurant around the corner"?



For 1 hour break people don't return home


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## ChrisZwolle

Some time ago we were discussing the highest paved roads in Spain and CA-916 to the Mirador Fuente de Chivo in Cantabria came up. This is the highest road in Cantabria and one of the higher ones in all of Spain. The parking area at the end of the pavement is at circa 1990 meters altitude. 

Location: OpenStreetMap

I visited this area in September and also hiked to the top of the Pico de Tres Mares (2174 m). The view is excellent, you can see the highlands of the upper Ebro, of Palencia, the Picos de Europa and the Cantabrian Sea.


Mirador Fuente del Chivo 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


Mirador Fuente del Chivo 08 by European Roads, on Flickr


Mirador Fuente del Chivo 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## alserrod

BTW, do you know the reason after which it is called "tres mares"?

It was a primary school question in geography for exams


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## ChrisZwolle

The Three Seas. At first I thought you can see three seas from there, but only the Cantabrian Sea is in sight. I wonder if this has to do with drainage, the water on that location drains to the Cantabrian Sea, Atlantic and Mediterranean? 

The Ebro has its source a bit to the east, I actually visited that as well (it's next to the main road there). And Palencia drains to the Duero. And most of Cantabria to the Cantabrian Sea.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Three Seas. At first I thought you can see three seas from there, but only the Cantabrian Sea is in sight. I wonder if this has to do with drainage, the water on that location drains to the Cantabrian Sea, Atlantic and Mediterranean?
> 
> The Ebro has its source a bit to the east, I actually visited that as well (it's next to the main road there). And Palencia drains to the Duero. And most of Cantabria to the Cantabrian Sea.




Absolutely correct.

Rivers in Spain are divided to Atlantic, Mediterranean and Cantabrian. Each creek or river will reach one or other Sea / Ocean. All river maps have lines dividing which areas go to each main river and which rivers go to each sea. Obviously there's a tripoint and... it is Pico Tres Mares. Three rivers in opposite directions.

Another detail... Turia river and Jucar river doesn't start far away one from another. Maybe 40 km by road, shorter in a straight line. But if you go from one to another point you will cross.... Tajo river (which ends in Lisbon!!)


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## FabriFlorence

MacOlej said:


> How many people in Spain really go back home during lunch breaks? I know it's a cultural thing that we here in Poland can't quite understand.
> 
> From transportation and ecology point of view it seems like a bit of a waste cause it doubles the commutes, fuel/energy spend etc.
> Are there any green movements with slogans like "save the earth, spend your lunch break at the office or in a local restaurant around the corner"?


In mediterranean countries it's quite normal going back home during lunch breaks (of course for who works near home). Also italians does it. 

Probably it's a question of habits.


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## g.spinoza

FabriFlorence said:


> In mediterranean countries it's quite normal going back home during lunch breaks (of course for who works near home). Also italians does it.
> 
> Probably it's a question of habits.


Do they?
I've never met anyone who does.


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## FabriFlorence

g.spinoza said:


> Do they?
> I've never met anyone who does.


When I worked near my house, I did.


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## ChrisZwolle

Snow on A-52 in Galicia. It's pretty late in the season to have snow there I suppose. This is around 1000 meters altitude though.


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## alserrod

Some small villages around Cantavieja, Aragon, have remained isolated but... in these days they are absolutely isolated.

It is an area where they have one weekly bus Cantavieja-Teruel... and that's all. Minimal services

Weather reports to have upper 22ºC next week in this region


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## Aokromes

ChrisZwolle said:


> Snow on A-52 in Galicia. It's pretty late in the season to have snow there I suppose. This is around 1000 meters altitude though.


I have seen snow here on late may (around 500-600m over sea level)


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## ChrisZwolle

A-30 in Murcia.


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## ChrisZwolle

Semana Santa travel (or lack thereof)


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## arctic_carlos

^^ However, yesterday afternoon there were some traffic jams near Madrid due to police controls.


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## alserrod

It's true. At first it seemed people wanted to leave home but in fact, it was just controls with congestion.


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## ChrisZwolle

The motorways are still totally empty throughout Spain.
































































I wonder though, is everyone at home, not working? I've noticed that even the government hasn't published any road news for a month now. Don't they work from home? In the Netherlands we work from home and preparing tenders and plan approvals so that the line of construction work won't dry up over the next few months. The number of published tenders increased by 25% over the past 4 weeks in the Netherlands. 

When we first starting working from home, we expected that the amount of work would recede, but the opposite is true, there is a lot of work to do, perhaps even more than usual. Planning video conferences short-term has become quite difficult as everyone's agenda is loaded.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ It depends. People employed in essential services (healthcare, supermarkets, police, truck drivers, etc.) are of course working in normal conditions. And people who have jobs in which working from home is possible (namely office jobs, but also in others sectors such as education) are also working from home. But in Spain retail, hospitality (hotels and restaurants) and domestic service employ a large chunk of the population. And the majority of these people are not working at all since a month ago. On the other hand, construction and factories have been completely shut down for the last 2 weeks, but their activity will resume tomorrow.

Regarding government activity. I'd say it depends. The general rule is work from home. In some ministries the amount of work is higher than usual, but in others there's less activity. I don't know exactly how things are going on in the MITMA, but perhaps they're working from home and it's just that road-related news aren't being published on their website because that's not considered a top priority at the moment. It's only my personal impression, but maybe they prefer not to act like they are working in normal conditions when the message given by the government to the population is the opposite...


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## alserrod

Non-essential activities have halted in Spain for 2 weeks. Tomorrow they will be entitled to operate.
That will mean an increase of urban traffic but will remain more or less the same on motorways


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## Attus

alserrod said:


> Non-essential activities have halted in Spain for 2 weeks. Tomorrow they will be entitled to operate.


Did you forget that tomorrow is Easter, or is Easter Monday a working day in Spain?


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## MichiH

Attus said:


> Did you forget that tomorrow is Easter, or is Easter Monday a working day in Spain?


It's not a holiday in whole Spain. I think it's a working day in Zaragoza.


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## arctic_carlos

Attus said:


> Did you forget that tomorrow is Easter, or is Easter Monday a working day in Spain?


Easter Monday is only a holiday in the Balearic Islands, Cantabria, Castilla-La Mancha, Catalonia, Valencia, Navarra, Basque Country and La Rioja.

That means tomorrow is a working day in Galicia, Asturias, Castilla and León, Aragón, Madrid, Extremadura, Murcia, Andalusia, the Canary Islands, Ceuta and Melilla.

The country is almost split 50-50.


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## alserrod

By law it is a working day. Each region is entitled to change to holiday...but at first, official holiday is Easter Thursday.

The full list appears previously.

BTW, Easter Monday has been the worst day in traffic in Zaragoza by far among all the day.

It is a working day in the region and...in almost all neighbour regions (including the 2 French ones) remains last holiday day. Therefore, it is the day with greater congestions.

Every year I always answer someone how to avoid it (funny but getting out the tolled motorway one exit before and in a parallel way no faster than 80-100 you can drive instead of having 10 km congestion).

But this year I bet there will not be many problems.

BTW, tomorrow I'll go back job again. I remember less traffic than usual 3 weeks ago...maybe 25% only.
I cross besides main hospital and that point can have more traffic


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## Attus

OK, thank you all!


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## Vignole

Empty roads in Catalonia:









Carreteres perdudes


Carreteres buides, desorientades, perdudes. El coronavirus també s’estén per tota la xarxa viària catalana. Els vehicles es queden a casa




www.lamira.cat


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## ChrisZwolle

I took some photos near the Puerto del Escudo, which is the border of Cantabria and Castilla y León.


N-623 Puerto del Escudo - Cantabria 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-623 Puerto del Escudo - Cantabria 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-623 Puerto del Escudo - Cantabria 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-623 Puerto del Escudo - Cantabria 07 by European Roads, on Flickr

Signs have a projected lifespan of 10 years. Produced in September 2018, recommended replacement in September 2028.

N-623 Puerto del Escudo - Cantabria 08 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Ale92MilanoSpA_

*A-49 From Sevilla to Huelva*


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## ChrisZwolle

There are a couple of exits on A-49 with extremely short (40-50 meter) merging and exit lanes. What is up with that? I thought A-49 was originally built to autopista standards and these had higher design standards than autovías at that time.


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## alserrod

It is the first time I see a picture about replacing time on signals in Spain.

I always remember A-2 that took 20 years to be replaced. When it was named A-2 instead of N-II a label was fixed and... some years later whilst night, you could only read A-2 in all signals


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## ChrisZwolle

It sounds like they are going to reconsider twinning the entire N-IV between Dos Hermanas and Jerez de la Frontera to a four lane autovía.









El Gobierno duda ahora desdoblar la N-IV entre Jerez y Los Palacios


El Ejecutivo admite que está analizando los datos de tráfico para valorar la necesidad del nuevo trazado al disponer ya de la autopista libre de peaje




andaluciainformacion.es





I'd say, complete the under construction segment to Los Palacios, build a link between AP-4 and A-4 on the north side of Jerez, and call it a day.


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## SRC_100

Ale92MilanoSpA_ said:


> *A-49 From Sevilla to Huelva*


I like these bushes and small trees in the median, between carriageways...


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## ChrisZwolle

alserrod said:


> Non-essential activities have halted in Spain for 2 weeks. Tomorrow they will be entitled to operate.
> That will mean an increase of urban traffic but will remain more or less the same on motorways


I've been looking at DGT webcams around Madrid and a few other places. Traffic seems to have increased only minimally. It's a little more than 'no traffic at all', but the motorways are still very empty, most webcams show less than 3 cars in view.


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## alserrod

I drive through a main avenue 3x3 and I haven't opervassed other cars these days. I can see someone in front and back ..but sometimes I stop in a traffic light....and I am alone in that way!!!


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## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Signs have a projected lifespan of 10 years. Produced in September 2018, recommended replacement in September 2028.


10 years is too little IMHO. I'm not saying that signs should be kept until they get impossible to read, but I've seen signs older than 10 years still in a more than acceptable shape. In Italy you can still see the occasional pre-1992 sign (and very old ones from the 1960s or 1970s are very rare, but not impossible to encounter).


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## alserrod

As an example of traffic, I have glanced some out of lines in my homeregion

I hope not to have mistakes.

Madrid-Zaragoza, 2 buses (instead of 21 every day)
Zaragoza-Barcelona, 1 bus
Huesca-Barcelona, 1 bus
Huesca-Lerida, 1 bus
(there's no Zaragoza-Lerida by bus. You have 6 daily high speed trains)

Non metropolitan or commuter buses in the region...

Huesca has 1 train Pyrenees-Zaragoza and 1 bus Jaca-Huesca-Zaragoza plus 1 Huesca-Barbastro-Benasque and 1 Huesca-Barbastro-Lerida (they call only on major towns)
Teruel has 1 train Zaragoza-Valencia plus 1 daily direct bus non-stop. All towns and villages besides A-23 have only train service. There's no bus service.
It never minds it you look at Albarracin, Calamocha, Daroca, Cariñena, Mora de Rubielos or wherever. One daily train and that's all.
Teruel is not linked not Madrid, nor Barcelona (at first 2 per week to Barcelona)
Anyway, the small village of Cantavieja (the smalles county capital in Aragon) remains one weekly bus to Teruel, and all smaaaaall villages in the road.
Montalban and surroundings have 2 weekly Zaragoza-Montalban-Teruel and some villages have one weekly bus to Teruel

Soria-Tarazona-Borja-Zaragoza has two weekly buses plus 3 ones Tarazona-Zaragoza in addition
Ejea-Zaragoza has 1 weekly bus

Calatayud has 1 daily bus to Zaragoza. At first they had two ones plus several lines with one or two weekly buses. Nowadays, all towns and villages around Calatayud (except Illueca) are isolated except by train. There are 4 daily Madrid-Barcelona trains that call at Calatayud plus 1 regional train that calls in absolutely all little villages to give service

Alcañiz is not bad, Daily 1 to Teruel, 2 to Zaragoza, 1 to Barcelona and something for small villages in the surroundings (never on weekend)

And... I do not know if there's more extra movement.

In the Sariñena area buses are cancel after some weekly service (you have a station 4 km away from centre with a daily train).

In all that area, from N-232 to north there's absolutely no other service than the daily train. Bus to Barcelona across AP-2 is non-stop, no longer buses in the north of AP-2 and in the A-22, Huesca-Barbastro is non-stop too.


I would bet, major towns without service are Andorra and La Almunia (they have train 6 km away in Ricla). Ejea, being one of major towns in the region, has one weekly service only


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## arctic_carlos

Construction of the new N-232 alignment in the Querol mountain pass is progressing, despite the current situation.



Andy_43890 said:


> Avanzadas las obras del nuevo tramo de la carretera N-232 en el puerto de Querol (Castelló):
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> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1251204157303926791
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> Autopistas | A-68 y N-232 Vinaròs - Santander
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> Forma parte de acuerdo electoral que ese tramo y el del cruce de Andorra a Valdealgorfa estén en obras durante 2020 ¿Ya se ha licitado, redactado y aprobado el proyecto constructivo de ese tramo (cruce de Andorra a Valdealgorfa)? No me suena que se haya licitado en los últimos años ningún...
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> www.skyscrapercity.com


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## alserrod

In the same road, Figueruelas-Gallur will be opened as A68 on Autumn and Gallur-Mallen on 2021 Autumn.


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## ChrisZwolle

There is a quite serious subsidence on RM-1 in Murcia.









Fotos: Parcheo de emergencia en la 'autovía del bancal'


Los hundimientos de la calzada empeoran debido a las últimas lluvias y hacen que los coches salten si no se extreman las precauciones




www.laverdad.es


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## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are a couple of exits on A-49 with extremely short (40-50 meter) merging and exit lanes. What is up with that? I thought A-49 was originally built to autopista standards and these had higher design standards than autovías at that time.


If you mean the exits closest to Seville, wasn't this opened in the late 1960's? I have a feeling that the autopista standards weren't so strict at the time...


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## pascalwithvespa95

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is a quite serious subsidence on RM-1 in Murcia.
> 
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> Fotos: Parcheo de emergencia en la 'autovía del bancal'
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Is there a speed limit? Maybe those people are speeding. Still, the road looks quite bad.


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## ChrisZwolle

The _Puerto de El Escudo_ (or _del Escudo_ if you will). It's on the border of Cantabria and Castilla y León, but not quite. The actual border is slightly south of the pass. The pass is part of N-623.


N-623 Puerto de El Escudo 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-623 Puerto de El Escudo 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-623 Puerto de El Escudo 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Boltzman

^^ Traditionally the Cantabric mountains had three main passes, linking coastal towns with the central Plateau (and thus, Madrid): pass of Pajares to Oviedo, pass of El Escudo towards Santander and pass of Orduña on the way to Bilbao. The present routes to Santander and Bilbao avoid these passes as the motorway links were built through another corridors; as for Pajares, it's avoided by means of a tunnel.

Even though the motorway stretches to Oviedo and Bilbao are tolled, their respective road have hardly any traffic, even the old route to Bilbao was downgraded and it's not a national road anymore.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Most of the motorways are still deserted. Only the urban motorways have a light volume of traffic.


----------



## verreme

^^ We're still quarantined so it's normal. Most activities will not resume until May the 12th, though this will be an especially quiet summer given that tourism will likely drop to pre-1970s levels.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I was hoping to contribute something to the Spanish tourism sector in late summer.  I guess we'll have to wait and see...


----------



## alserrod

Sadly I may say no option nowadays.

Last Saturday, president had a question about German people who have a house in Balearic islands, they want to go there to have a look if everything is all right and they cannot (question came from a German journalist, hence the nationality).
Answer was, even Spanish people (nor those who live in Balearic) can move to their holiday houses yet!!! 

Anyway, tourism is one question a lot of people make about due to economic impact. We maybe will have some answers in the next weeks

Nevertheless, if you are worried about covid19 rates, best destination is, by far, Canaries (and mainly small islands). Later, all coast regions except Basque Country and Catalonia (this is, from Cantabria to Galicia and from Valencian community to Andalusia plus Canaries and Balearics) plus Extremadura plus Aragon have the lower rates today.

Will it be possible to have a bath (and distance between people in the beach) is another question, but in those regions you can find mountains, scapes, empty lands and heritage as you know.


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## ChrisZwolle

MITMA has started a consultation for the new norms for road markings: 8.2-IC marcas viales | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana

_norma "8.2-IC marcas viales" de la Instrucción de Carreteras _

It says that the road markings along autovías and autopistas should be continuous in all cases. So no more 'French-style' discontinuous lines on the right side of the motorway. 

page 32 in the PDF:
_M-2.5, para autopistas y autovías.
Línea continua de 0,20 m de anchura._

M-2.5 are road markings on the right side of motorways. It will be continuous and 0.2 meter wide.

page 4 in the PDF:
_Línea de borde continua en autovías y autopistas: el borde derecho en autovías y autopistas pasa a ser continuo en todos los casos._

The edge marking along motorways on the right side will be continuous in all cases.


----------



## Adrian.02

Off topic:But Mallorca also has quite a low number of cases,right?
I'm also planning to go there in the middle of the summer.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> MITMA has started a consultation for the new norms for road markings: 8.2-IC marcas viales | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana
> 
> _norma "8.2-IC marcas viales" de la Instrucción de Carreteras _
> 
> It says that the road markings along autovías and autopistas should be continuous in all cases. So no more 'French-style' discontinuous lines on the right side of the motorway.
> 
> page 32 in the PDF:
> _M-2.5, para autopistas y autovías.
> Línea continua de 0,20 m de anchura._
> 
> M-2.5 are road markings on the right side of motorways. It will be continuous and 0.2 meter wide.
> 
> page 4 in the PDF:
> _Línea de borde continua en autovías y autopistas: el borde derecho en autovías y autopistas pasa a ser continuo en todos los casos._
> 
> The edge marking along motorways on the right side will be continuous in all cases.



We had a thread (nowadays no operational) about guess the road. I remember all roads in Guipuzcoa province are non-continuous like in France. In other cases, several options... but non-continous = Guipuzcoa


----------



## alserrod

Adrian.02 said:


> Off topic:But Mallorca also has quite a low number of cases,right?
> I'm also planning to go there in the middle of the summer.



I have no data per island.

Here you are some easy-to-read data. They are in Spanish but I hope Translator + charts would be easy to understand.

They are Spanish data charted per region. Focus on "Baleares". It will take Menorca+Mallorca+Ibiza+Formentera together. They are 1,19 million people









Coronavirus | La evolución de la pandemia hasta la desescalada


Analizamos día a día el número de casos y fallecidos con coronavirus en cada comunidad autónoma. Descubre los datos. Más noticias en RTVE.es



www.rtve.es





(covid19 infection and deaths per day per region)


In the case of Formentera, starting today (and as well as three islands in Canaries) they are entitled to walk at any hour respecting separation, opening shops (in the rest of Spain small shops can open only for online shopping, phone shopping or deliver since today) and even a terrace in a bar with only 50% seats (the rest of Spain will wait till Monday).
Menorca, Mallorca and Ibiza are having the same restrictions as the rest of Spain
(I remember in March when some visitors "discovered" Canary islands where in Spain and all Spanish restrictions apply there too... same for Balearic)

As a sum-up, going down strongly fast in covid-19 infections (first chart), 6 PCR positive tests yesterday (we awared data for weekends could be lower), 3-4 deaths on hospitals everyday (incluiding all islands) since two weeks in Balearic islands.

Mobility

Mallorca airport (PMI), departures for tomorrow
1 plane to Menorca
1 plane to Ibiza
2 planes to Madrid

that's all. I think there are operating some days to Barcelona and Valencia but not sure.


----------



## arctic_carlos

Adrian.02 said:


> Off topic:But Mallorca also has quite a low number of cases,right?
> I'm also planning to go there in the middle of the summer.


I don't think international tourism will be possible this summer in Spain. I've heard rumors that our borders (including airports) will be closed for international travelers at least until Autumn.

The Canary and Balearic islands will only be able to receive national tourism this summer, if we're lucky and there isn't a new outbreak.


----------



## alserrod

Regarding AP-7, this month it is supposed to erase all former toll booths. Some exits may have restrictions due to works


----------



## arctic_carlos

As many of you perhaps remember, in May 2010, exactly 10 years ago, the Spanish Government was compelled to carry out massive spending cuts in order to redress the financial situation of the country. One of the most well-known measures was the suspension of the works of many infrastructures. That affected, of course, hundreds of kilometres of new motorways, which were already under construction

Since 2014, the situation got better and the construction of many of these motorway sections was gradually resumed. Many of them have been completed and opened to traffic in the last years. However, as of today, when a new crisis is hitting the country, there are still around 20 incomplete projects. Construction was resumed in almost all of them, and many sections are now very advanced and should open between 2020 and 2021, despite the new crisis.

I've used MichiH's fantastic list (I'm sorry that he can no longer update it) to compile all the projects that were started before 2010 and are still under construction. I've excluded suspended motorway projects by the regional governments (which can be found in Madrid, Castilla-La Mancha, Galicia and Valencia), since they weren't affected by the May 2010 decision by the central government. I've also excluded sections started after 2013 that were later also suspended due to other reasons.

This is the list:



MichiH said:


> *A11:* Langa de Duero – San Esteban de Gormaz 11.4km (2009/10 to Spring 2020) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A33:* Caudete-East – Caudete (A31) 3.2km (<= 2013 to 2020) [southbound] - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A44:* Atarfe (N432) – Santa Fe (A92G) 3km (2007 to 2020) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A44:* Santa Fe (A92G) – Las Gabias (A338) 8.7km (2009 to 2020) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A63:* Salas-East – Cornellana 7.3km (2007? to 2020) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A32:* Torreperogil – Villacarrillo 13.6km (2009? to 2020?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A32:* Villacarrillo – north of Villanueva del Arzobispo 17.2km (2009? to 2020?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A33:* La Font de la Figuera (A35) – north of La Font de la Figuera 1km (<= 2013 to 2020?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A38:* Cullera – Favara (AP-7) 10km (2008? to 2020?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A56:* A Barrela-North (Estivada) – As Lamas (OU901) 8.8km (2008 to 2020?) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *B40:* Olesa de Montserrat – Viladecavalls (C16) 6km (2007 to 2020?) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *GR43:* Pinos Puente – Atarfe (A44) 10.6km (2008? to 2020?) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A63:* west of Salas – Salas-East 5km (2007? to Fall 2020) [2nd c/w] - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A2-AP7:* Castellbisbal (A2) – Castellbisbal (AP7) 1km (2007 to Late 2020) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A11:* Santiuste – Venta Nueva 17km (2009/10 to Early 2021) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A11:* San Esteban de Gormaz – El Burgo de Osma-West 11.1km (2009/10 to >= 2021) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A27:* Montblanc-East – Valls-North 7.3km (2008 to Late 2022) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A11:* Fresnillo de las Duenas – Langa de Duero 21.4km (2009/10 to ?) [contract canceled] - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *SE40:* Carretera de la Isla (A4) – Coria del Rio ~5.5km (2009 to ?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A23:* Sabinanigo-South – Lanave 9km (Early 2010 to _suspended_) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A63:* La Espina – west of Salas 7km (2007? to _suspended_) [2nd c/w] - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *B25:* Cornella (A2) – Sant Boi de Llobregat (C32) 2km (2009 to _suspended_) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


I hope that by the end of 2021 the list will have considerably shortened. However, due to the ongoing situation, it doesn't look like the construction of the SE-40 tunnels or the short B-25 section near Barcelona will be resumed in the short term. In some cases, the construction company in charge of the project went bankrupt, so they need to retender it. In other cases, the project needs to be modified due to changes in legislation (the B-40 tunnel, for instance). So let's see what the future brings about.


----------



## arctic_carlos

Important news:

The Spanish government has approved today the resumption of contracting procedures by the public sector. They were suspended since March 14 (I wasn't aware of that), when the state of alarm was declared. Link to the official source (in Spanish).

Today, several new road maintenance contracts have appeared on the MITMA website, so I guess that indeed the activity related to new contracts has been kind of frozen in the past weeks, even though they were being prepared.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

CL-631 has a 12 kilometer autovía segment north of Ponferrada. It is the only autovía in Castilla y León with a CL-number instead of an A-number.

There is a view of the Compostilla II coal-fired powerplant. Its chimneys are one of the tallest structures in Spain, at 270 and 290 meters.


CL-631 Villablino - Ponferrada 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


CL-631 Villablino - Ponferrada 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


CL-631 Villablino - Ponferrada 10 by European Roads, on Flickr


CL-631 Villablino - Ponferrada 14 by European Roads, on Flickr


CL-631 Villablino - Ponferrada 18 by European Roads, on Flickr


CL-631 Villablino - Ponferrada 19 by European Roads, on Flickr


CL-631 Villablino - Ponferrada 22 by European Roads, on Flickr


CL-631 Villablino - Ponferrada 24 by European Roads, on Flickr


CL-631 Villablino - Ponferrada 27 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## verreme

^^ A video of the same road:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A couple of photos of SC-20 in Santiago de Compostela.


SC-20 Santiago de Compostela 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


SC-20 Santiago de Compostela 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


SC-20 Santiago de Compostela 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


SC-20 Santiago de Compostela 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Ale92MilanoSpA_

*Driving through Andalucía (Spain) from Sevilla to Málaga 8.07.2019 Timelapse x4
A-49 SE-30 A-92 A-45 MA-20*


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## ChrisZwolle

A-6 in Galicia has a lot of signs indicating distances to destinations via two different routes:


A-6 Ponferrada - A Coruña 88 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-6 Ponferrada - A Coruña 95 by European Roads, on Flickr

Even an AP-9 sign.

A-6 Ponferrada - A Coruña 101 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-6 Ponferrada - A Coruña 114 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-6 Ponferrada - A Coruña 118 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## diegogalban

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-6 in Galicia has a lot of signs indicating distances to destinations via two different routes:


Happens also in A-52, also in Galicia, just after Ourense, half of this sign is under an overpass (built for the AG-53 intersection), and it's hardly legible at driving speeds. Also the "ATENCIÓN" sign seems to be removed.


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## ChrisZwolle

Construction has started on the AP-7 / N-332 connection at Oliva (Valencia province). Both roads will be linked up, so that AP-7 can form the bypass of Oliva for N-332 traffic. That way they don't have to construct a separate bypass for N-332.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259814696565256192


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## verreme

^^ That's great. Even with a toll-free AP-7, Oliva is a bottleneck and I think every holidaymaker in Western Europe knows.


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## arctic_carlos

AP-7 toll gates in the Alicante province are being dismantled:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260144474770092032


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## ChrisZwolle

An unusual sight. The rerouted M-30 through the former Vicente Calderon Stadium in Madrid.


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## ChrisZwolle

N-232 through the 'Desfiladero de los Hocinos', a canyon of the Ebro River, approximately 60 kilometers north of Burgos.

Location: OpenStreetMap


N-232 Desfiladero de los Hocinos 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-232 Desfiladero de los Hocinos 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-232 Desfiladero de los Hocinos 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


N-232 Desfiladero de los Hocinos 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> An unusual sight. The rerouted M-30 through the former Vicente Calderon Stadium in Madrid.


 and visible on Streetview!


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## sponge_bob

Is the rerouting not temporary so they can finally put the M30 under the ground just where that stand is being demolished...



ChrisZwolle said:


> An unusual sight. The rerouted M-30 through the former Vicente Calderon Stadium in Madrid.


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## ChrisZwolle

Interesting, there used be a complex of viaducts at Atocha (Madrid). It was built in the 1960s and demolished in 1985 after M-30 was built.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ The viaducts were (fortunately) replaced by a tunnel linking Ronda de Atocha to Avenida Ciudad de Barcelona. 

However, I think the urban reform of the area in the late 80s had more to do with the preparations of the arrival of HSR to Atocha station in 1992, which entailed a massive upgrade of the station and its surroundings.


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## MichiH

Any news on these projects?



MichiH said:


> *SG20:* Segovia-North (A601) – east of Segovia-South (AP61) 8.4km (May 2016 to Early 2020) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A11:* Langa de Duero – San Esteban de Gormaz 11.4km (2009/10 to Spring 2020) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


I guess works are temporarily suspended?


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## Eulanthe

I've just found a very strange example of tolls that I can't make sense of, relating to the R-4 south of Madrid.

If you come off the R-4 here for the A-4, you pay 2.75 Euro. If you then re-enter here, you pay 2.20 Euro. Otherwise, if you stay on the mainline, you'll pay 7.35 Euro. It's a difference of 2.40 Euro if you use the A-4 for 3km, with identical speed limits (120km/h). 

It seems to be the same situation coming from the south as well - if you use the A-4 until exit 47, it's a saving of nearly 5 Euro as opposed to using the R-4, despite it being essentially the same quality of road.

What's the story here?


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## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> Any news on these projects?
> 
> I guess works are temporarily suspended?


I don't know exactly the current situation of these two particular projects, but in Spain this kind of works were only suspended for 2 weeks (form the 30th of March to the 13th of April), which partly coincided with Easter holidays, in any event. So for the last month they must have been working on them, although probably with a slower pace due to the necessary precautionary measures.

I guess they will both open in the coming weeks.


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## ChrisZwolle

A construction company sent out tweets that they are working on those projects:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1261319814439735296

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1257239376884576256

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1250712512607268864


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## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> I've just found a very strange example of tolls that I can't make sense of, relating to the R-4 south of Madrid.
> 
> If you come off the R-4 here for the A-4, you pay 2.75 Euro. If you then re-enter here, you pay 2.20 Euro. Otherwise, if you stay on the mainline, you'll pay 7.35 Euro. It's a difference of 2.40 Euro if you use the A-4 for 3km, with identical speed limits (120km/h).
> 
> It seems to be the same situation coming from the south as well - if you use the A-4 until exit 47, it's a saving of nearly 5 Euro as opposed to using the R-4, despite it being essentially the same quality of road.
> 
> What's the story here?



I know situation about R-5. When it was projected, people trended to buy a biggest house far away from Madrid providing it will be faster to reach by car (thus all you save in less price for home, you pay in tolls and fuel). Free motorway was unsafe and congested and you could see a lot of traffic through centre in the morning, outside in the afternoon.
Even in the times with more money, it didn't worth a lot.

Nowadays, ... you can see that it doesn't worth so much (except for those houses in a town located besides a motorway exit and they have to cross all the town for the free motorway. This is, niceties). They remain. I wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper to make it for free and that's all


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## alserrod

Works on A-23 Sabiñanigo by pass (Sabiñanigo east-west ) goes on

Source, DdAA newspaper


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## ChrisZwolle

I was looking in the 1961 atlas of provincial road systems of MOP.

It turns out that N-321 to Málaga didn't actually run in the A-45 corridor (opened 1992), but followed what is today A-7000 via Colmenar. This road looks narrow and very curvy, and reaches over 900 meters in elevation. Road MA-431 is a very curvy road to Casabermeja, and didn't run through the valley either. Satellite images also show no remains of a former main road through the valley.

This means that Málaga was quite poorly accessible from the interior before A-45 opened in 1992. This must've revolutionized travel to the city.


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## arctic_carlos

I'm almost sure that, at least between Villanueva del Cauche and Málaga, A-45 was built as a twinning of an older national road (*N-331*), reusing it for one of its carriageways. Just look at some of the old-style restaurants along the current motorway. They don't look as having been built in the 90s. And if there had been no national road before 1992, these restaurants wouldn't have been built...









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.es













Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.es













Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.es


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Maybe N-331 was built through there between the 1961 MOPU map and the 1992 opening of A-45. 

If that is the case, N-331 must've been somewhat of a higher standard road since almost no remnants of older alignments are visible. Usually that means that they expanded the existing road to four lanes, in particular during that period of road construction in Spain (The 1984 Plan General de Carreteras upgrades).

The tunnels also show no sign of a previous route. But you can see that the tunnel portals have a different design. 

It would be interesting to know when N-321 / N-331 was built through there. Perhaps as part of the Plan REDIA upgrades during the 1960s? A major alignment change like that usually means brochures, plans, news articles. Maybe I can dig something up in the archives of ABC.


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## ChrisZwolle

Aha, I already found something. A 31 kilometer new road opened to traffic on 13 July 1973. This must be it according to the description. They say it shaved half an hour off the drive already.


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## arctic_carlos

I found it almost at the same time.  The different design for the tunnel portals of each carriageway was a good hint. 

I guess the Costa del Sol tourist boom in the 70s had something to do with the construction of this new road.


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## CNGL

I was about to say sometime in the 70s a new road between Las Pedrizas Pass and Malaga was built, but we managed to pinpoint exactly when it was opened.

Also notice how roads had changed from the Plan Peña to 1961. In the Plan Peña, N-331 was supposed to follow what in 1961 was C-3310 (present day A-7075, a section of it was still missing in 1961), while N-334 was to follow MA-401 and MA-402 (today's A-7054) and then a then-unbuilt route to Carratraca (today present as A-357, this explains the hanging end of C-337 -now A-343- at Pizarra). The section labelled as N-334 Northwest of Antequera was to be C-3310 (which extended to Ecija). In addition C-340 was supposed to start at Alora, but that plan was never fully realised, only the section between Casabermeja and Colmenar was built (most likely after N-331 was realigned).


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## ChrisZwolle

I was looking at the history of N-601. It used to be a longer route from Collado Villalba (Madrid) to León. It ran across the Puerto de Navacerrada (present-day M-601 and CL-601). Its route was swapped with N-403 in the 1980s. N-403 was truncated to Adanero and N-601 rerouted to there. 

However, the Puerto de Navacerrada is pretty high. A sign says 1880 meters, other websites indicate an altitude of 1858 meters (which corrresponds to the altitude data in Google Earth).

Here's a list of highest roads in Spain: Las carreteras más altas de España - Viajo en Moto

It appears that N-601 across the Puerto de Navacerrada was the highest national road in Spain, being over 350 meters higher than N-VI across the Alto de León. It also seems that N-260 across the 1790 meter high Collada de Toses in Catalonia is currently the highest national road in Spain.


----------



## CNGL

And unlike most of N-260, the Collada de Toses has been always on a national road, as it was part of N-152 which used to run from Barcelona to the French border at Puigcerda (and which now has been reduced to a 2 km long road in Puigcerda connecting N-260 to the French border. I would merge N-152 and N-154 to Llivia into a single road).


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *SG20:* Segovia-North (A601) – east of Segovia-South (AP61) 8.4km (May 2016 to Early 2020) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


The deadline was May 31st but there is a delay due to the lockdown. The ministry and the company say that works should be completed in the last week of June or first week of July.









Segovia y San Cristóbal, conectadas por una pasarela que salva la SG-20


El paso peatonal sobre la futura autovía permitirá la conexión a pie entre el municipio del alfoz y el barrio de San Lorenzo




www.elnortedecastilla.es


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was hoping to contribute something to the Spanish tourism sector in late summer.  I guess we'll have to wait and see...


According to our President borders will open for foreigners starting from July:





__





Sánchez: "Turistas, España os espera desde julio"


El Gobierno empieza a escuchar al sector turístico y ya va perfilando la forma en la que los turistas internacionales podrán volver a nuestro país para salvar, al menos en parte, l




www.elmundo.es


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## alserrod

Chris... to know how situations is dealing, this will be tomorrow's update










light green = phase 2
light blue = phase 1

Today (Sunday), almost all Castilla y Leon, all Madrid and Barcelona surroundings are in phase 0. Tomorrow they will be allowed to make more activities in those territories.

Next week, only four smaller islands could cross to phase 3 (and some parts could ask for phase 2). Each Friday there will be a decission and changing phase to phase requires 2 weeks.

It is just to make you an idea to know which areas have more resources nowadays against covid19 or which ones have been beated more by virus

Canaries doesn't appear but all is in phase 2 and in one week three islands could reach phase 3


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *AP8:* Bilbao-Penascal – Buia (AP68) 4km (January 2019 to 2023) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


Construction progress (pictures were taken last week near the junction with AP-68):



4lexperez said:


> Ayer pasé por la zona de Venta Alta en Arrigorriaga y aproveché para ver un poco como iban las obras. Lamentablemente, a la hora que la población adulta puede salir no salen las fotos muy bien.
> 
> Cabe destacar que eran las 20:30 y se veía mucho movimiento de excavadoras y maquinaria. Cuando se trata de proyectos ferroviarios o de metro-tranvía el ritmo de construcción es más lento que cuando se trata de obras de carreteras...


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## arctic_carlos

The government of Navarre plans to upgrade N-121A between Pamplona and the French border (well, the last 5 km before Behovia are in the Basque Country) to expressway standards (mostly 2+1), although a 7 km section (including the Almandoz and Belate tunnels) will have motorway standards (2x2 in different carriageways).


















Las obras para convertir la N-121-A en una vía 2+1 se iniciarán en Ezkaba-Olabe


El Departamento de Cohesión Territorial del Gobierno de Navarra prevé licitar la actuación en verano y que los trabajos comiencen a finales de este año - Los cuatro tramos restantes ya se encuentran en redacción




www.noticiasdenavarra.com













Cohesión Territorial saca a licitación la redacción del proyecto de duplicación de los túneles de Belate y Almandoz


Las empresas interesadas pueden presentar ofertas hasta el 17 de junio




www.navarra.es





In order to finance the project, a toll for trucks will be implemented in the high capacity roads of the region that currently are toll-free or don't have a shadow toll system (A-1, A-10, A-15, N-121A and A-68):









Navarra podría ingresar hasta 45 millones al año con un peaje a vehículos pesados en vías de alta capacidad


El Gobierno foral dice que esta opción permitiría financiar obras urgentes como la N-121-A o los túneles de Belate y Almandoz PAMPLONA, 15 (EUROPA PRESS) Navarra




www.lavanguardia.com


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## ChrisZwolle

The tolling system sounds similar what Gipuzkoa province has implemented.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

pai nosso said:


> A25 - Vilar Formoso
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: Conduril - Engenharia, S.A. | Algumas das principais obras


The Portuguese section of the A-62 extension looks like it will require quite a while before it is completed.

Meanwhile, the section of A-62 appears to be completed right up to the border. Why wouldn't they open it? Perhaps too many left turning trucks on that intersection with the old bypass of Fuentes de Oñoro?


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## arctic_carlos

^^ The whole section on the Spanish side of the border is officially completed since last year.

However, when that short section was opened to traffic, they announced that, considering traffic flows, they would only open the section up to the border when the Portuguese section had been completed as well. So I guess the amount of left turns play an important role.

And now, of course, we have the added problem of renewed border controls due to Covid-19. It's easier to carry out those controls in the old border facilities, which are roofed, than in the middle of nowhere. So I guess the delay in the opening of the Portuguese A25 is even welcomed in these weird times for cross-border traffic.


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## Eulanthe

arctic_carlos said:


> I guess the Costa del Sol tourist boom in the 70s had something to do with the construction of this new road.


Almost certainly, I'd say. They would have needed a more reliable route, and the transformation of the Costa del Sol between the 1950s and the 1970s was quite remarkable. 

In somewhat related news, I'm struggling to see why anyone would bother with the AP-46 now that the toll is at the high rate for most of the year, and 5.25 Euro for 28km is really extortionate.


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## alserrod

Look at this way.... someone drives from Madrid to Malaga. Providing he drives on A-4 instead of R-4, it will be tolled-free until those 28 km.
You arrive tired, you wanna reach and 5,25 euro is quite expensive but people thinks usually in full traject.

It is not the only case. I know people who pays for strongly expensive tolls saying.... well but the rest if for free, not so much for whole traject!!!
WTF!!


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## arctic_carlos

These newer toll motorways (R2, R3, R4, R5, AP-36, AP-41, AP-46) that run parallel to older free-of-charge _autovías_ are mostly used in weekends and holiday peak times, especially by occasional long-distance drivers who don't mind to pay an extra amount of money to avoid traffic jams. On the other hand, its use by daily commuters is very scarce.


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## Carretero

Eulanthe said:


> I've just found a very strange example of tolls that I can't make sense of, relating to the R-4 south of Madrid.
> 
> If you come off the R-4 here for the A-4, you pay 2.75 Euro. If you then re-enter here, you pay 2.20 Euro. Otherwise, if you stay on the mainline, you'll pay 7.35 Euro. It's a difference of 2.40 Euro if you use the A-4 for 3km, with identical speed limits (120km/h).
> 
> It seems to be the same situation coming from the south as well - if you use the A-4 until exit 47, it's a saving of nearly 5 Euro as opposed to using the R-4, despite it being essentially the same quality of road.
> 
> What's the story here?


I don't know where you have obtained that information about toll prices. Here are the official ones:





AUTOPISTA RADIAL 4


Autopista de peaje R-4. Autopista R - 4. Más rápida, más cómoda, más segura




www.seitt-r4.es





I don't see any significant "price gap" in the intermediate stretches. Please note that the price for the complete motorway stretch is 6,00€, and that some interchanges are not open in both ways.


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## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *A11:* Langa de Duero – San Esteban de Gormaz 11.4km (2009/10 to Spring 2020) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


Opening in late June. Source:









El tramo San Esteban-Langa prepara su apertura para finales de junio


La Autovía del Duero sumará «en semanas» 13 kilómetros más / Las precipitaciones pueden demorar la previsión / Queda el riego bituminoso, pintar las marcas viales y adecuar accesos




diariodecastillayleon.elmundo.es


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## arctic_carlos

Construction of the new N-232 alignment in the Querol mountain pass (near Morella, Castellón province) is also progressing. Works started in June 2017 and should have been completed by now, so there's a considerable delay. I guess the new section will open in late 2021, if everything goes well.



Sentinel said:


> Los nuevos viaductos de la N-232 avanzan a buen ritmo
> 
> 
> Esta semana finaliza la colocación de vigas en el primer viaducto y comenzarán las del segundo en este conjunto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cope.es


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting tweet:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266636613335101440
It appears that the A-7 tunnels at Olleria were built one at a time and not simultaneously. The first tube opened on 30 May 1992, bypassing the substandard C-3316 mountain pass, but the second one didn't open until March 2002.









Los dos túneles de La Ollería se podrán utilizar como autovía en marzo de 2002


La autovía central estará en funcionamiento en 2004, según declaró ayer el conseller de Obras Públicas, José Ramón García Antón, quien asistió a la finalización de la perforación del nuevo túnel de La Ollería. Dicha obra se abrirá al tráfico en octubre pero en doble sentido, dado que se cerrará...



www.abc.es





The old road is also a small open-air museum.


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## verreme

^^ That's cool! Originally the motorway opened as CV-40 only to be transferred to the Spanish central government later as A-7. The same happened with CV-10 north of Castelló.


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## CNGL

Google still labels it as CV-40, even though it was changed sometime between July 2015 and June 2017 (And I passed through there last year). It also labels N-340 as such between Albaida and near Rotgla i Corbera when it is no longer so, it is now CV-62 from Albaida to Montaverner, CV-620 from there to Xativa (not to be confused with the Pedrola-Fuendejalon provincial road in Zaragoza, which I refer to as ZV-620) and finally CV-58 back to A-7.

In other news, as the country reopens we are allowed to travel through the province again (only in those territories that have reached phase 2), and thus on Saturday I was able to see the works on the Sabiñanigo East-West section of A-23, which started construction right before what I've called the "s*** period". Earthworks were already quite visible on satellite imagery (thanks, Sentinel Playground ), but this was the first time I was able to see them on the ground.


----------



## alserrod

It is also cool to be warned not to overspeed more than 40 for.... 3250m
You are driving, being careful with speed... are you going to focus on 3250m exactly?????


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## ChrisZwolle

I was looking at the history of A-7 / CV-40 / C-320 in the Ontinyent area. 

Evidently it is older than assumed on Wikipedia. According to Spanish Wikipedia the 12.5 km segment between Albaida and L'Ollería opened in 2004. However I think they misread the source, which states an opening between L'Ollería and Bèlgida, which is CV-60. A 2004 opening for CV-60 is consistent with historical satellite imagery in Google Earth that shows that segment under construction in 2003 imagery.

It looks like the segment between Albaida and Ollería was expanded as C-320 in the 1990s, if you look at the 1996/1997 historical satellite image available on the IGN website, you can see that Albaida - Ontinyent already was a four lane autovía at that time, but not entirely to L'Olleria, it is visible as a super two road north of CV-81. I'm guessing the Ontinyent - L'Ollería segment was expanded to four lanes when the second tube of the Ollería Tunnel was built in 2002.









Comparador Mapas del IGN CNIG


El Comparador de Mapas del IGN CNIG permite consultar los mapas del Archivo Topográfico del IGN con diversas fuentes cartográficas y ortofotos.




www.ign.es


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A 'frenetic' pace on the GR-43 (A-81) construction near Granada. The Pinos Puente - Atarfe section is now being paved with asphalt. No possible opening date is mentioned.









Ritmo frenético en la ‘autovía de Pinos Puente’


En el tramo desde Atarfe ya se están colocando las primeras capas de firme El proyecto de salida de Granada aún se redacta y el resto hasta Badajoz se estudia




www.granadahoy.com


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## arctic_carlos

They have also published today an interesting article about Granada outer bypass (expected opening in late 2020). Current degrees of execution:


Albolote - Santa Fe: 97% (up from 93% last December))
Santa Fe - Las Gabias: 77% (down from 91% last December - the project has been modified)
Las Gabias - Alhendín: 87% (up from 79% last December)

In total, the degree of execution of the project is 87%. The first and most advanced section could open earlier.









Problemas geotécnicos ralentizan un tramo de la Segunda Circunvalación de Granada


El 28 de abril se aprobó un modificado de las obras que amplía el presupuesto en 10,81 millones de euros para solucionar estos contratiempos, aunque Transportes dice que no afecta a los plazos




www.granadahoy.com





And a photo gallery:









Fotos de las obras de la Segunda Circunvalación de Granada en junio de 2020


Problemas de índole geotécnico han obligado a incrementar la inversión en el tramo Santa Fe-Las Gabias de la Segunda Circunvalación, que de estar al 88% de ejecución se ha retraído al 77%. Un contratiempo que el Ministerio de Transportes afirma que nos afecta a los plazos de finalización, que el...




www.granadahoy.com


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-57 near Pontevedra:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268471299178991616
It looks different compared to Open Street Map. The map tweeted shows a roundabout right on the motorway, not as an interchange.


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## ChrisZwolle

MITMA has obtained a favorable environmental declaration (DIA) for the construction of 34.5 kilometer A-15 between Ágreda and Tudela. 

This motorway won't follow the shortest route via N-113, but shifts to the east via Tarazona before heading north to AP-15 near Tudela. This way Valladolid - Zaragoza traffic can join A-15 for a while.





__





Mitma obtiene declaración de impacto ambiental favorable al tramo Ágreda-Tudela, de la autovía A-15 de Navarra | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.gob.es


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> MITMA has obtained a favorable environmental declaration (DIA) for the construction of 34.5 kilometer A-15 between Ágreda and Tudela.


What sort of traffic volumes does that road get? I know it will only cost €6.50 per km as it's in Spain but it's pretty remote


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## ChrisZwolle

In the future it will carry both Valladolid - Zaragoza and Pamplona - Madrid traffic. 

I would suspect that traffic volumes would eventually be in the 10,000 - 15,000 range. This is a sparsely populated region of Spain and regional traffic volumes are generally low.


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## alserrod

The route was planned since a long time ago. They will approach Tarazona, the main city in the area (despite 10.000 inhabitants... Tarazona has cathedral and bishop, thus city). It is the shortest way Zaragoza-Valladolid too and Madrid-Pamplona.

It will join to junction AP-15+AP-68.

Road in Castilla y León and in Aragón will be delivered by ministery and in Navarra by regional government


Anyway, it is a weird area. It is not hilly despite it cross besides the highest mountain in the Iberian system (from Miranda to near Valencia, Moncayo mountain is the hightest)


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> In the future it will carry both Valladolid - Zaragoza and Pamplona - Madrid traffic.
> 
> I would suspect that traffic volumes would eventually be in the 10,000 - 15,000 range. This is a sparsely populated region of Spain and regional traffic volumes are generally low.


Oh ok, I hadn't thought about Madrid traffic - it looks it could be the shortest route from Madrid towards Hendaye, and by extension everywhere southwest of Madrid as well, so could actually end up as a busy route


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## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> In the future it will carry both *Valladolid - Zaragoza* and Pamplona - Madrid traffic.
> 
> I would suspect that traffic volumes would eventually be in the 10,000 - 15,000 range. This is a sparsely populated region of Spain and regional traffic volumes are generally low.


There were plans to complete the gap between Tarazona and Gallur for Valladolid - Zaragoza traffic with a regional motorway: ARA-A4. I think the central government should build that section instead as part of A-11, with A-11 and A-15 sharing the common section between Soria and Tarazona.


----------



## CNGL

I've driven both N-113 and N-121-C going to/coming from the pine forests in Northwest Soria, so if A-15 gets built I would drive it as well. In fact I think the best route from Huesca to Soria is A-23, A-1209, A-124, A/NA-125, around Tudela on NA-134 and A-68 (although going through Tudela might be actually quicker), NA-160, N-113, A-15 around Agreda and finally N-122. There are many town crossings along N-121-C (Cascante, Tulebras, Monteagudo, Novallas -sounds like "Don't go!"-, Tarazona), which really slow down, that's why I prefer to take NA-160 to N-113, which has just one (Valverde, which lies in the short Aragon/Rioja border).

BTW, I see the Navarre section is being projected by the chartered regional government (no surprise, since they own every numbered road other than AP-68). Knowing what happened with both A-12 and A-21, I won't be surprised if they end up building the motorway before MITMA does so, thus giving us an abrupt end in the middle of nowhere.


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## alserrod

CNGL, btw, you haven't still chatted about it as a road in the region


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## ChrisZwolle

CNGL said:


> Knowing what happened with both A-12 and A-21, I won't be surprised if they end up building the motorway before MITMA does so, thus giving us an abrupt end in the middle of nowhere.


Those were built with shadow tolls. I'm not sure if the Navarra government has money to spend on another motorway project. The proposed N-121-A upgrade is also financed through truck tolls, this indicates that they may not have as much cash on hand to build big projects like they used to.


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## alserrod

Navarra route is not so long and... looking at any journey, 90% of people who will drive Tarazona-Tudela will have as destination anywhere of Navarra, thus they are the most interested. It doesn't worth for most of other journeys


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## arctic_carlos

The construction contract of a new *A-11* section (Olivares de Duero - Quintanilla de Arriba) has been awarded. It's 14.5 km long and will cost € 98M. It will be ready in 3 years, once the works start. So I guess it will open to traffic in late 2023.

Map:










Source: Adjudicado por 98M€ el tramo de la A-11 entre Olivares y Quintanilla


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## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> *A38:* Cullera – Favara (AP-7) 10km (2008? to 2020?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


Opening in late October 2020:









El tramo de la A-38 Cullera-Favara entrará en servicio a finales de octubre


El Ministerio de Fomento trabaja para adaptar la salida del antiguo peaje de la AP-7 y enlazarlo a través de una glorieta con la nueva autovía




www.lasprovincias.es





This section is not really necessary now that AP-7 is toll-free, but at least it will be useful in the summer months for beach traffic.



MichiH said:


> *A56:* A Barrela-North (Estivada) – As Lamas (OU901) 8.8km (2008 to 2020?) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


Opening very soon:









El primer 10% de la autovía A-56 ya está casi construido


El resto de los tramos del nuevo vial entre Lugo y Ourense llevan diez años esperando que Fomento contrate las obras



www.lavozdegalicia.es





This is the first A-56 section to open. A-56 will eventually connect Lugo with Ourense, replacing N-540. However, this first section will not have much traffic because it's only connected to N-540 at its northern end (towards Lugo); the southern end of this section is only connected to a local road towards Carballiño. As a result, Lugo-Ourense traffic won't be able to use this first section of A-56, at least until additional sections towards Ourense are built.



MichiH said:


> *A57:* A Ermida – Vilaboa 6.5km (October 2015 to 2020?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


The project needs to be modified. I doubt an opening in 2020 is still possible.









El primer tramo de la circunvalación se modificará por segunda vez


La Demarcación de Carreteras del Estado prevé la expropiación de 472 parcelas en el trazado de la A-57 entre Vilaboa y A Ermida, que acumula un año y cuatro meses de retraso ►El sobrecoste del proyecto se incrementa en más de 2,7 millones de euros




www.diariodepontevedra.es







MichiH said:


> *B40:* Olesa de Montserrat – Viladecavalls (C16) 6km (2007 to 2020?) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


The project needs to be modified. I doubt an opening in 2020 is still possible.









El tramo del Cuarto Cinturón entre Olesa y Viladecavalls, retrasado ‘sine die’


Fomento asegura que varios imprevistos técnicos y burocráticos han obligado a modificar el proyecto




elpais.com


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## verreme

^^ As for the Cullera-Favara stretch of A-38, even with a toll-free AP-7 it makes a lot of sense since Cullera and Sueca are far away from the motorway.

The B-40 article mentions a landslide that was discussed in this thread a few pages ago. However this doesn't seem to be the biggest obstacle, as this title goes to the infamous C-16 interchange. I honestly don't know whether they actually plan to finish this road or not.


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## arctic_carlos

verreme said:


> ^^ As for the Cullera-Favara stretch of A-38, even with a toll-free AP-7 it makes a lot of sense since Cullera and Sueca are far away from the motorway.


The most necessary part of A-38, between Sollana (AP-7 interchange) and Cullera, was completed more than a decade ago. I agree with you that that section was very necessary, since Sueca and Cullera are far from AP-7 and they generate a lot of traffic towards Valencia. 

On the other hand, the section they're now about to open only connects Cullera with N-332 south of Favara. With long-distance traffic not using N-332 anymore, this new section will not see a lot of traffic. Even Cullera - Favara local traffic will still have to use the old national road. Or Cullera - Gandia traffic, given where the current AP-7 Favara interchange is located. In my opinion, the new section would only start to be useful if they built a new AP-7 interchange south of Favara. 

By the way, they should consider building a CV-510 bypass in Favara. Maybe they could reuse the old AP-7 interchange, now that the old toll gates are not necessary. In the summer months, CV-510 traffic in Favara can be quite problematic due to the people from Alzira going to the beach in Cullera. Another option would be to build a new AP-7 interchange in Corbera, of course.









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.es







verreme said:


> The B-40 article mentions a landslide that was discussed in this thread a few pages ago. However this doesn't seem to be the biggest obstacle, as this title goes to the infamous C-16 interchange. I honestly don't know whether they actually plan to finish this road or not.


Other articles (in Catalan) also mention the need to adapt the tunnel to new regulations:









Una modificació del projecte del Quart Cinturó entre Olesa i Viladecavalls pot endarrerir més les obres


L'objectiu és adaptar les instal·lacions del túnel a la normativa vigent i millorar la connexió amb la C-16 i la C-58




www.regio7.cat


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## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> *A73:* Aguilar de Campoo (A67) – Bascones de Valdivia 6.0km (Early 2017 to ?) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP





MichiH said:


> *A73:* Bascones de Valdivia – Pedrosa de Valdelucio 12.0km (Early 2017 to 2021) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


There is satellite imagery from 17 June 2019 of this area.

It shows the Bascones de Valdivia - Pedrosa de Valdelucio segment under construction, but not the Aguilar de Campoo - Bascones de Valdivia section.

Construction was reported to be at 44% progress in February 2020.









Escasos avances en la A-73


El pasado verano los trabajos agotaban el plazo inicial planteado de 24 meses, sin que llegue la inyección presupuestaria que permita culminar esta fase y las que siguen sobre el papel




elcorreodeburgos.elmundo.es


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## arctic_carlos

Construction on the Aguilar de Campoo - Bascones de Valdivia section actually never started.


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## ChrisZwolle

I found this interesting report about the N-630 in the Béjar area: https://proerectus.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/puente-de-bc3a9jar.pdf

I haven't been able to pinpoint an exact opening date, but a ~35 kilometer segment of N-630 was upgraded to a super two (grade-separated) road from the north side of Guijuelo to the Puerto de Béjar. This was a huge upgrade project prior to the construction of A-66, my guess is that this was the largest upgrade to the entire N-630 between Gijón and Sevilla.

Google Earth historical imagery isn't very clear, it appears that construction began in the late 1980s on the bypass of Guijuelo, and then proceeded south to the Béjar bypass in the early 1990s. The PDF is from the _Ministerio de Obras Públicas, Transportes y Medio Ambiente_ which only existed between 1993 and 1996, so it must've been built in the early 1990s, it was likely opened in several stages considering the total upgrade length (35 km).

This high-standard road was eventually absorbed into A-66 in 2008-2010.

The super two highway is also visible on historical aerial imagery from 1997-1998, which can be accessed here: Comparador Mapas del IGN CNIG


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## CNGL

Wow, the area around Bejar has historical Street View imagery dated January 2011. Until now, I thought the first imagery Mr. Google took in Spain after the Wi-Fi scandal in May 2010 had been in Zaragoza in February 2011, and that is a month earlier (maybe a few days earlier, but we don't know the exact date).


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## sponge_bob

Google had no satellites of its own before 2014 and they sold them again in 2017 Satellite imagery before the Skysat birds was expensive and it is only really since the later Skysats were launched in 2016/7 that it became _relatively_ cheap and can be updated regularly. Another 6 Skysats are to go up this year, the next SpaceX launch in fact.

There is another lot of good free imagery here and if you click on the map it gives you the imagery data (mostly in the last 3 years in Europe)



https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=c1c2090ed8594e0193194b750d0d5f83


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## ChrisZwolle

The 12.8 kilometer segment of A-11 between San Esteban de Gormaz and Langa de Duero (Soria province) will open to traffic at the end of the week.






Mitma pone en servicio un nuevo tramo de la Autovía del Duero (A-11) entre San Esteban de Gormaz y Langa de Duero | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es


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## ChrisZwolle

I took some photos of VG-1.5 last year. This is a "vía de altas prestacións' in A Coruña province in Galicia. It is basically a short extension of AG-55 around Baio. Most of it would've been part of AG-55, but the construction of that motorway was stopped during the financial crisis. VG-1.5 allows through traffic to AC-552 to bypass Baio, which is the last exit on AG-55 for now.



VG-1.5 Baio 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


VG-1.5 Baio 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


VG-1.5 Baio 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


VG-1.5 Baio 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


VG-1.5 Baio 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


VG-1.5 Baio 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> I took some photos of VG-1.5 last year. This is a "vía de altas prestacións' in A Coruña province in Galicia. It is basically a short extension of AG-55 around Baio. Most of it would've been part of AG-55, but the construction of that motorway was stopped during the financial crisis. VG-1.5 allows through traffic to AC-552 to bypass Baio, which is the last exit on AG-55 for now.
> 
> 
> 
> VG-1.5 Baio 01 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> VG-1.5 Baio 02 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> VG-1.5 Baio 03 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> VG-1.5 Baio 04 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> VG-1.5 Baio 05 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> VG-1.5 Baio 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


There are plans to extend it 5.8 km to Vimianzo (interchange with AC-432 towards Camariñas), also as a 2-lane expressway, using the partially-built alignment of what was supposed to be AG-55. This is approximately 1/3 of the total section Baio - Berdoias, where construction was suspended 8 years ago. Source:









La autovía seguirá como un corredor hasta la carretera a Camariñas


El proyecto sale a información pública: seis kilómetros y 28,7 millones



www.lavozdegalicia.es







MichiH said:


> *AG55:* Berdoias – Baio 17km (2011 to _suspended_) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


----------



## sponge_bob

Anyone want to predict the chances of this being built???









El pacto con Teruel Existe recupera una autovía prohibida por su impacto ambiental


El PSOE acepta negociar una obra que tumbó hace una década como símbolo de su política ambiental. La obra afectaba a paisajes y especies de flora y fauna




www.elconfidencial.com


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## alserrod

In the future

Teruel Existe claimed for some halted investment but in that case it is just to have a new project


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## CNGL

A-40 between Cuenca and Teruel? Absolutely no need. Even though Teruel now exists in the Congress as well xD. It has already been overturned once.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-40 looks good on a map, but the traffic demand just isn't there to justify a motorway. Even A-40 west of Cuenca carries only 5,000 vehicles per day, in most countries that's not even half of a minimum level of traffic to build a motorway for.

The red numbers indicate the AADT.


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## alserrod

Glance somewhere between Teruel and Torrebaja in google maps and you will find why people avoid this route.

Nevertheless, it is expected to have a Alcolea-Monreal stretch on works in these 4 years


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-27 update:









El tÃºnel del Coll de Lilla ya estÃ¡ perforado casi en un 20%


Tras la puesta en funcionamiento de la variante ferroviaria de VandellÃ²s, el pasado 13 de enero, las obras del tÃºnel del Coll de Lilla son la actuaciÃ³...




www.diaridetarragona.com





The tunnel under the Coll de Lilla is now 20% bored since they started in October. A completion in spring 2022 appears likely, according to the article. 

Coll de Lilla is a low mountain pass of N-240 between Valls and Montblanc in Tarragona province. The tunnel under the pass will be 1.5 km long.


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## ChrisZwolle

A-74 update









Los trabajadores de Alcoa San Cibrao cortan el tráfico para protestar contra el cese del 85% de la plantilla


Las movilizaciones se han repetido desde que el anuncio de despido por parte de la empresa fue hecho público hace dos semanas



www.abc.es






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271368461336313857
A-74 is a planned autovía in Lugo province, from A-8 at Foz to San Cibrao. The largest single incentive for this motorway is the Alcoa steel plant in San Cibrao, which is by far the largest industrial asset in northern Lugo. However they have announced that 85% of the workforce will be laid off, I think this casts serious doubt on A-74. The first stage around Foz alone was projected to cost € 241 million.


----------



## alserrod

A-11 opened today (Langa-San Esteban)


----------



## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> A-11 opened today (Langa-San Esteban)


Official video:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271383708625403905
And some pictures:









Abre al tráfico el tramo de la A-11 entre Langa de Duero y San Esteban de Gormaz


El Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana (Mitma) ha puesto en funcionamiento este viernes el...




www.europapress.es













 El nuevo tramo abierto de la A-11 en la provincia


El Mitma ha abierto este viernes al tráfico el tramo de 12,8 kilómetros de la autovía del Duero, entre San Esteban de Gormaz y Langa de Duero. Lo puedes recorrer en este video.




elmirondesoria.es


----------



## Kolerus

Hello,

Are there plans expand north section of C-32 in Catalunya between Tordera and LLoret?


----------



## arctic_carlos

Kolerus said:


> Hello,
> 
> Are there plans expand north section of C-32 in Catalunya between Tordera and LLoret?


Yes. Not as a motorway, but as a 2+1 expressway (some tunnels would be twin tube - 2x2). It would be 6 km long, form the current end of C-32 in Blanes to C-63 in Lloret de Mar. In a second phase it would be extended up to road towards Tossa de Mar. Preliminary construction of the extension even started in May last year, but opponents to the project (ecologists and nimbysts) managed to get a judge stop it just a few months later, last July. The future of the project is quite uncertain right now.









Se intensifica la oposición a la prolongación de la C-32 en Lloret de Mar


El proyecto está recurrido dos veces en el Tribunal Superior de Justicia




elpais.com













Paralizadas las obras de prolongación de la C-32 de Blanes a Lloret de Mar


El tribunal ha tomado la decisión como medida cautelar debido a que el estudio de impacto ambiental no se ajusta a la ley




www.lavanguardia.com


----------



## SRC_100

Some kind of OT:
is in Spain quite easy to get LPG ( _liquefied petroleum gas - propan-butan, gazol _) fuel?


----------



## sponge_bob

10 years ago 2 large (14m) tunneling machines were ordered to drill under the river in Seville as part of the SE-40 ring road project. While the machines were built the project was suspended and they were never used. 

In April 2020 the company that made them closed down permanently. 









Judicial liquidation for the last manufacturer of French tunnel boring machines - Archyde


Judicial liquidation without continuation of activity! The Commercial Court of Chalon-sur-Saône decided for Tunneling Equipment, ex-Mülhauser, ex-NFM Technologies whose workshops are in Creusot (Saône-et-Loire) and ... Read more




www.archyde.com





It would be unwise to launch a TBM bore with no manufacturer there any more to support you if something broke down. 

Does anybody know what happened to the two tunneling machines by any chance or are they c.€100m worth of scrap metal already??? They were not on the liquidators list ....going cheap here.


----------



## arctic_carlos

sponge_bob said:


> Does anybody know what happened to the two tunneling machines by any chance or are they c.€100m worth of scrap metal already??? They were not on the liquidators list ....going cheap here.


According to this article from May last year, only one of the TBMs was eventually built (the one for the northern tunnels). It's still there, at a storage facility near Coria del Río (of course, disassembled). And allegedly, it has a maintenance cost of €1.4M per year...



> Cabe recordar que estos subterráneos, con los que se sortearía el río en el tramo que discurre entre Dos Hermanas y Coria, ya están adjudicados a dos uniones temporales de empresas con las que hay un contrato firmado. En el caso del *túnel norte*, que construirá la UTE formada por OHL, Azvi y Sando, será necesaria una actualización de los planos para incluir los nuevos cálculos de inundaciones realizados por la Confederación Hidrográfica de Guadalquivir. La Dirección General de Carreteras trabaja en la redacción del modificado y los análisis medioambientales que estarán listos en los próximos meses. Este mismo grupo de empresas es el que adquirió hace casi siete años la tuneladora por casi 40 millones de euros.
> 
> La gigantesca taladradora, de 14 metros de diámetros y 150 de longitud, permanece desmontada en un almacén de Coria a la espera de que la obra se reactive algún día. Pero esa falta de actividad no sale gratis. Su mantenimiento tiene un coste de unos 120.000 euros al mes, a razón de 1,4 millones de euros al año, que van sumando a la cuenta del sobrecoste. Desde que se encargó hasta hoy acumula ya más de nueve millones de euros que Fomento tendrá que abonar.
> 
> La máquina se ha conservado porque fue diseñada exclusivamente para este proyecto, lo que impide que pueda venderse o alquilarse para cualquier otro.
> 
> Al menos solo hay una tuneladora en este estado, la segunda que debía haber encargado la UTE adjudicataria de los *túneles sur* no llegó a fabricarse. Precisamente este grupo de empresas que forman Copisa, Aldesa y la desaparecida Brunesa, están a la espera de la liquidación del contrato, pues una de las firmas no existe y el proyecto del túnel sur necesita un rediseño completo. La intención del Ministerio es buscar una fórmula para resolver este acuerdo con el menor coste posible y volver a sacarlo a licitación.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fomento dice ahora que el subsuelo es un problema para la tuneladora
> 
> 
> A ello se suma la actualización de los contratos, necesaria para reactivar la obra de los túneles de la SE-40
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sevilla.abc.es


----------



## sponge_bob

arctic_carlos said:


> According to this article from May last year, _only one of the TBMs _was eventually built


That's good, only €50m was wasted instead of €100m then.No sensible contractor would ever use a machine which is completely unsupported though, the risk is too great.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-21 near Yesa. The best used wildlife crossing in the world? 🙃


----------



## alserrod

A-68 El Burgo-Fuentes will start soon and works will live for 3 years









El desdoblamiento de El Burgo a Fuentes de Ebro estará listo en tres años y costará 51,3 millones de euros


Transportes preadjudica las obras a la gallega Copasa y a la catalana Comsa con una rebaja económica del 25%. El resto de la autovía de Castellón sigue pendiente de que se liciten los proyectos.




www.heraldo.es





They are 51,3 M€ only for 18,7 km

Is there any sheet about other works in Spain, and average cost per km of motorway in Europe to compare?

Thanks


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That segment is a bit of an outlier situation because the N-232 bypasses of El Burgo de Ebro and Fuentes de Ebro have been designed with a future motorway expansion in mind. So the cost is pretty low.


----------



## alserrod

The most difficult point is this bridge









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





It is to reach the main factory in the area (paper manufaturing). Due to it is located besides the railway, if you are going through Zaragoza nowadays you may cross the opposite way and go over bridge. For a long time I have seen there's no other option than demolishing it and preparing a new bridge.

I remember (circa 10 yrs ago or so) when El Burgo bypass was still under works, an announcement for 2x2 redaction was published.


Is there any sheet to compare prices?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I would say that in the range of € 4 - 7 million per kilometer is standard for an autovía through regular terrain. In Poland or Romania, the cost of rural (non-mountain) motorways appear to be around € 7-9 million per kilometer. I've seen a quote of € 20 million per kilometer in Germany. In the Netherlands or Switzerland it is likely closer to € 50 million per kilometer because most of those are urban / mountain motorway projects. And these countries don't build many new motorways, so what they do build is generally expensive. 

Of course the cost of motorway construction is not always that clear;

does it include VAT or not
does it include land acquisition or not
does it include planning cost or not

These variables could change the outcome significantly.


----------



## alserrod

Thank you very much


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-352 Vera - Garrucha*

The twinning of A-352 between Vera and Garrucha (Andalusia) has officially been inaugurated today. It is a 4.3 kilometer segment that includes two interchanges. I don't know if it actually has autovía-status, but it looks motorway-like.

Location: OpenStreetMap









Moreno destaca la apuesta del Gobierno andaluz por la provincia de Almería desbloqueando grandes infraestructuras pendientes


El presidente andaluz ha inaugurado el desdoble de la carretera A-352 Vera-Garrucha y la variante sur de Berja en Almería




www.juntadeandalucia.es


----------



## verreme

^^ If it is on MichiH's list, it counts as a motorway to me


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I couldn't spot an autovía sign in this clip. It does appear to have white signage, not blue.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1280909513114222592


----------



## verreme

^^ There doesn't seem to be any blue signage, but the fact that there are parallel/service roads next to the mainline suggests that there's some kind of restriction for non-motor vehicles, such as here.


----------



## g.spinoza

But I can't see any service road in the video...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A € 19.3 million contract has been awarded to expand 11.5 kilometers of CG-2.2 to a four lane autovía, between A Pobra de San Xiao and Sarria. Construction will take 2 years.









Adjudicado el primer tramo de la autovía a Sarria a una UTE de cuatro empresas


La actuación cuenta con un presupuesto de 19,3 millones y un plazo de ejecución de 24 meses



www.lavozdegalicia.es





This likely means that CG-2.2 will be renumbered to an AG-number.


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> A € 19.3 million contract has been awarded to expand 11.5 kilometers of CG-2.2 to a four lane autovía, between A Pobra de San Xiao and Sarria. Construction will take 2 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adjudicado el primer tramo de la autovía a Sarria a una UTE de cuatro empresas
> 
> 
> La actuación cuenta con un presupuesto de 19,3 millones y un plazo de ejecución de 24 meses
> 
> 
> 
> www.lavozdegalicia.es
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This likely means that CG-2.2 will be renumbered to an AG-number.


Yes, AG-22 (Lugo - Monforte de Lemos). It has its own thread:









LUGO | AG-22 Autovía de Lugo-Monforte de Lemos


Que desdoblen todos os corredores de Galicia e xa. Acabouse a historia.




www.skyscrapercity.com


----------



## VITORIA MAN

most of these high capacity roads are marked as local ones in google ( yelow )


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They closed a number of exits on A-2 through the Lleida area due to a local lockdown in the comarca of Segrià.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281517769054248961


----------



## verreme

g.spinoza said:


> But I can't see any service road in the video...


If you look at it on Google Maps, you'll see them.


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> They closed a number of exits on A-2 through the Lleida area due to a local lockdown in the comarca of Segrià.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281517769054248961


Finally some information on the current situation of A-14 towards Val d’Aran. Given that the motorway ends just south of Alfarràs, and that town is part of el Segrià “comarca”, I wasn’t sure whether its crossing (N-230) for through traffic was allowed as a transit route or not.

On the other hand, later today I will board a Madrid - Barcelona train that has a scheduled stop in Lleida. I don’t know whether there will be police officers in the platforms checking whether people alighting from the train are allowed to enter Lleida, or if the train will skip the city.


----------



## verreme

^^ They seem to be in no hurry at all to build further stretches of the motorway, though. The one that was just opened is totally useless for Lugo-Ourense traffic, in fact signage diverts drivers away from A-56.

The stretches closest to Ourense (which are the ones that have priority right now, and also the ones that are more necessary) are going to be much more expensive.


----------



## Aokromes

ChrisZwolle said:


> One half of the bridge has been demolished:


imho they can use the demolition to allow width for 3+3 road.


----------



## alserrod

Starting since tomorrow, N-260 will be down near Campo due to works to enlarge road until December.

There's a daily bus Barbastro-Campo-Castejon-Benasque, twice per day monday-friday, daily weekends.
Since tomorrow

monday-friday one Barbastro-Benasque making a tour over El Turbon mountain (Campo-Bonansa-Castejon!!), second one, same timetable but only Barbastro-Campo
weekend same schedule but only Barbastro-Campo.

October 12th and November 2nd (Monday) are bank holidays. Those long weekends road will remain open. The rest of days, a long detour will be compulsory.

It is expected to remain 2 more years under works after these ones.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The construction of the Autovía del Almanzora (A-334) in Almería province passes its halfway point: 









Las obras del tramo El Cucador-Concepción de la Autovía del Almanzora superan su ecuador


Marifrán Carazo anuncia que el tramo que conectará con la Autovía del Mediterráneo se licitará antes de que finalice el año



www.noticiasdealmeria.com





Completion of the first segment between El Cucador and Concepción in early 2022, to A-7 in late 2022. Those dates aren't changed.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What could this be? GC-1 AM?


----------



## Nikolaj

Las Palmas in the morning (AM)!


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> What could this be? GC-1 AM?


Avenida Marìtima (Seaside avenue)


----------



## alserrod

Metropolitan area????


----------



## CNGL

I wonder where is GC-1 PM (a.k.a. GC-13) xD.


----------



## sponge_bob

Or GC1 _A_venida _M_etropolitano to indicate an urban motorway section perhaps???? It looks substandard for an Autovia.


----------



## g.spinoza

I already answered few posts above.

It's *Avenida Maritima*:






Avenida Marítima (Las Palmas de Gran Canaria) - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre







es.wikipedia.org





It is posted as Autovia, has no at-grade intersections - although ramps are very short, and a limit of 80.

EDIT: It seems that sign is either new or no more (depending on when that pic was taken, before or after December 2018):









Google Maps


Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.




www.google.it


----------



## alserrod

BTW, Benasque valley and surroundings remains with a "lockdown" due to works on N-260 near Campo

Castejon de Sos-Campo requires a 45m extra detour. Therefore... it may be quite important to move by car
there's only one daily bus monday-friday that reachs Benasque (the rest finish at Campo in these months).

for holidays they will reopen road twice in these months. It is expected to finish on December 1st (before ski season) and there will have two extra years under construction


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A roadsign error on A-52 near Ourense. E-1 is not on this route (it follows AP-9).


A-52 Porriño - Benavente 34 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## CNGL

I noticed that error over a decade ago when I was in the area.


g.spinoza said:


> I already answered few posts above.
> 
> It's *Avenida Maritima*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Avenida Marítima (Las Palmas de Gran Canaria) - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> es.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is posted as Autovia, has no at-grade intersections - although ramps are very short, and a limit of 80.
> 
> EDIT: It seems that sign is either new or no more (depending on when that pic was taken, before or after December 2018):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.it


These signs are pretty new, they were installed some time after December 2018 (as they don't appear yet on Street View). A different set of signs were posted at the same place, but vanished at some point in between November 2016 and December 2018: Google Maps


----------



## Ale92MilanoSpA_

*A-4*
*Driving from Madrid to Sevilla (Spain) 22.08.2020 Timelapse x4*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A-68*

The Figeruelas - Gallur section of the N-232 expansion to A-68 won't be completed until April 2021. The schedule used to be late 2020.









El tramo Figueruelas-Gallur de la N-232 no se inaugurará hasta abril


El Ministerio de Transportes calcula aún seis meses más de obras / El cierre de la autovía de Logroño se producirá en otoño del 2022




www.elperiodicodearagon.com


----------



## alserrod

I just only understand budget issues... it was really advanced this summer


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The 1961 'Atlas provincial' shows this map of roads in Madrid.

There used to be an N-601, C-601 and M-601 in Madrid, all on the north side of the city. 

C-601 was never completed through the Monte de El Pardo. M-601 later became M-607. It appears that present-day M-603 used to be a part of N-I between Madrid and Alcobendas. 

N-601 was moved out of Madrid in the 1980s, when it was rerouted south of Valladolid. The old route became M-601 and CL-601 across the Navacerrada Pass.


----------



## CNGL

M-601 was upgraded to C-607 when the original project of C-601 along the Manzanares was cancelled some time in the 60s, as the El Pardo wilderness became private property. And yes, M-603 used to be part of (using present-day notation) N-1 (I know the exact routes all 6 radial highways, as well as N-401, took from the Puerta del Sol to the outskirs of Madrid).

Also notice N-320 is missing as at the time it ended in Guadalajara, it was extended over C-102, C-100 and M-103 in 1988. And the map was already outdated, since Chozas de la Sierra had been renamed Soto del Real in 1960.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's also interesting that C-604 became a secondary _carretera autonómica_. Usually they became primary ones (belonging to the _red básica_ or base network). Except maybe the 4-digit ones.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-8 crosses over the 698 meter high mountain pass 'Fiouco', which is between Mondoñedo and Abadín in Lugo province. This area is notorious for dense fog. They have tried multiple solutions to this problem, A-8 is closed an average of 600 hours per year due to fog at this location.

They're now trying more options:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317136932502183936
Laser lights:









LED projections:









_Un sistema de difusión automático por aspersores de materiales higroscópicos._ No idea what this is.














Mitma inicia la fase de experimentación con prototipos en campo frente a la niebla en un tramo de prueba anexo a la A-8 | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es


----------



## alserrod

AFAIK, it is not first time anti-fog system is activated in A-8, but I do not remember if first time was there or somewhere in Galice


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-8 crosses over the 698 meter high mountain pass 'Fiouco', which is between Mondoñedo and Abadín in Lugo province. This area is notorious for dense fog. They have tried multiple solutions to this problem, A-8 is closed an average of 600 hours per year due to fog at this location.
> 
> They're now trying more options:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317136932502183936
> Laser lights:
> 
> 
> LED projections:
> 
> 
> _Un sistema de difusión automático por aspersores de materiales higroscópicos._ No idea what this is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mitma inicia la fase de experimentación con prototipos en campo frente a la niebla en un tramo de prueba anexo a la A-8 | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mitma.es


This is beyond absurd. They knew the area is extremely prone to fog yet they decided to build A-8 at a much higher altitude than N-634, thus maximizing the fog risk. Inmediately after opening a series of crashes in thick fog began. As of today the speed limit has been reduced to 100 km/h (even when there's no fog!) and there's average speed cameras.

In my opinion they should downright close the motorway in the event of heavy fog. N-634 is safer under these conditions. AP-2 in Lleida province may also be closed when there's thick fog which is understandable. People will just drive 80 or 90 km/h thinking they're being cautious and when visibility is that low (we're talking about 10 meters) this is suicidal.


----------



## KRX_69

*N-620*

01.

N-620 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

02.

N-620 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

03.

N-620 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

04.

N-620 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

05.

acesso A-62 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

_*A-62*_

06.

A-62 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

07.

A-62 - saída Espeja by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

08.

A-62 - saída Fuentes de Oñoro by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

09.

A-62 - saída Fuentes de Oñoro by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

10.

A-62 - saída Fuentes de Oñoro by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

11.

A-62 - saída Fuentes de Oñoro by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

12.

A-62 - saída Fuentes de Oñoro by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

13.

acesso A-62 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

_*N-620*_

14.

N-620 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*DSA-470*

15.

DSA-470 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

16.

DSA-470 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

17.

DSA-470 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

18.

acesso A-62 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

19.

acesso A-62 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

20.

Av. de Portugal by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

21.

Fronteira PT-ES by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

👍


----------



## sponge_bob

verreme said:


> This is beyond absurd. They knew the area is extremely prone to fog yet they decided to build A-8 at a much higher altitude than N-634, thus maximizing the fog risk. Inmediately after opening a series of crashes in thick fog began. As of today the speed limit has been reduced to 100 km/h (even when there's no fog!) and there's average speed cameras.
> 
> In my opinion they should downright close the motorway in the event of heavy fog.


A motorway _has to be safe at some speed_ and a combination of average speed cameras, variable speed limits and no overtaking rules should be able to deal with the fog problem......_together with stiff fines_.

It cannot be safer to send traffic onto an S2 N road_ in all cases_. Modern road management has to come into it.


----------



## pai nosso

KRX_69 said:


> 19.
> 
> acesso A-62 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr
> 
> 👍


Envy is something ugly! 😆😂

Because we had a stupid sign, there was no need to copy and put one even worse! !😆😂 [A6 em Elvas]


----------



## CNGL

In fact once completed that on-ramp will cross into Portugal (and go back one hour in time) _before_ hitting the main lanes of the motorway! It won't reach A-62, but Portuguese A25 instead xD. They should have put E80 (or "E-80" as they like to sign it).


----------



## verreme

sponge_bob said:


> A motorway _has to be safe at some speed_ and a combination of average speed cameras, variable speed limits and no overtaking rules should be able to deal with the fog problem......_together with stiff fines_.
> 
> It cannot be safer to send traffic onto an S2 N road_ in all cases_. Modern road management has to come into it.


We're talking about fog so thick that a safe driving speed would be less than 50 km/h. This is terrible for driving fatigue. I would much rather drive on a 2-lane road with less fog, or no fog at all. Which is the case in the alternate road because it is at a much lower altitude.


----------



## sponge_bob

verreme said:


> We're talking about fog so thick that a safe driving speed would be less than 50 km/h.


Believe me, I have driven on a motorway where I was waiting to be smacked up the ass while doing less than 50kph and it was difficult to see any signage or even powerful street lights at junctions. It would be much less fatiguing if there were average speed cameras. I note the A8 section in question is around 20km - 25km long so it would take half an hour to get through it at a safe average speed in thick fog.

I don't believe a nearby, if lower, S2 would be entirely clear of fog either.


----------



## id037

sponge_bob said:


> I don't believe a nearby, if lower, S2 would be entirely clear of fog either.


I've passed trough there many times, A-8 closed and N-634 with clouds but 100% free of fog. When they were building it you could already see from the old road that it would be problematic because there was always fog there.

There are already variable speed limits, average speed cameras and LEDs everywhere but it only takes one idiot to create a massive problem, so they prefer to close it. And they don't close it every time there is a bit of fog, only when visibility is less than 40m.

I think that in those cases N-634 is indeed safer. 1 death on A-8 only 5 months after being opened (and on its first two months of summer, which is when this fog is more common). That isn't a good statistic.

I hope they can solve the issue without covering the motorway, because when it's clear, the views are beautiful from up there.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-8 is closed 600 hours per year at Fiouco. That's quite significant.









Â¿Final de la niebla en O Fiouco, en la A-8?


Por fin, todo apunta a que se vislumbra una posible soluciÃ³n tÃ©cnica innovadora para acabar con la bruma que cierra al trÃ¡fico, unas 600 horas al aÃ±o ...




www.elcorreogallego.es


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> _Un sistema de difusión automático por aspersores de materiales higroscópicos._ No idea what this is.


Hygroscopic means something which absorbs water, so spraying something into the air to remove the moisture, like tiny sponges. Seems a bit unlikely... but then if the road is closed for the best part of a month every year then they need to do something. LED strips along the edges of the road and bright lit cat's eyes?


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Aranda de Duero , former tourist national board motel 1930 on NI Location


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Aragón*

The government of Aragón has published studies for 10 corridors to be upgraded using the 'availability payment' concession model. It includes 1673 kilometers of road at a cost of € 540 million. Construction is planned between 2023 and 2025.

The plan is called the _Plan Extraordinario de Inversiones en Carreteras de la Red Autonómica_






Estudios de viabilidad en relación con las carreteras de Aragón. Gobierno de Aragón


Información sobre los Estudios de Viabilidad que contienen los Contratos de concesión de Obras para la ejecución, conservación y explotación del Plan Extraordinario de Inversiones en Carreteras de la Red Autonómica Aragonesa (RAA). Información sobre los Estudios de Viabilidad que contienen los...



www.aragon.es





Unfortunately all reports are poorly scanned documents.This is a map of all 10 corridors:









I've browsed through some of it. It appears that most upgrades are local / small upgrades to improve safety and travel speeds to around 90 km/h.


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## alserrod

Got it before @CNGL !!!

Briefly (we could chat, kilometre per kilometre)

Number 1... Caspe deserves a bypass. It is 2 km over the town. In addition, Sastago bridge is still under works because maintenance and it would deserve a new road Sastago-Escatron (Escatron-Caspe is more than fine!!=

Number 2... It is ready for 90 (it was for 100) except east bound from A-23 where 7 km or so are under construction and the rest will remain (till the pink road)

Number 3... it requires new asphalt... and remove three curves besides A-2 only, West roads. In case of east roads... I bet nothing but new asphalt.


Number 4... almost absolutely new road in all those ones. It would be basicly 6m wide or less except one road out of them

Number 5... Northern road in the Pyrenees requires nothing AFAIK, the rest... it was a former national road and no changes has had since 30 years or more. Several km are restricted to 30 because a gorge.

Number 6...All those roads are ready to 90 except in case of gorges (a scenic road and quite cool BTW). Nothing to do except reasphalt.

Number 7. I do not know all those roads but north-west road has only 10 km enlarged (and it is regional level). It remains the rest of stretch till N-123. 
I bet nothing to do in other roads except a new asphalt.

Number 8. It just requires new asphalt (and northern side is a mountain pass limited to 50 but I bet they will not change it)

Number 9. Providing it is a hilly road area (in both directions, always over 1000m and it reach 1700m in those roads) I would bet... nothing. It is the most isolated area in Spain, road is fine and I would ask for other roads to be improved

Number 10. North-east one just asphalt
In the southern side, north-south road requires to be wider in 30ish km. It is a former project



To sum-up, basicly asphalt, rather than new roads. Some regional roads no wider than 6m aren't in that map


----------



## CNGL

Wow @ChrisZwolle, you have beaten me to post this! In fact I didn't knew this plan until now. I'm going to do a more exhaustive post in the regional board (and in Spanish, obviously). It baffles me that the following roads haven't been included:

A-125 Erla-Ayerbe, a goat track especially up to the provincial border.
A-126 Navarre border-Tauste, another narrow road but at least it's pretty straight
A-129 Sariñena-Binefar, this currently doesn't exist, but has been planned for a loooooong time.
A-130, another narrow road (except for the Pomar de Cinca bypass). Granted, it has the better A-1234 across the Cinca river, but there are no bridges between them
A-131 Sariñena-near Huesca, there are still a couple of narrow sections. Unless they make A-1213 part of A-131 (which would need a short connector between A-131 and A-129 north of Sariñena to be classed).
A-137, one of many roads that suddenly improves upon crossing the regional border, NA-137 is better.
No glaring ommisions in Teruel. I guess thanks to its existence in the Congress xD.
I deliberately ommited A-135 since that shouldn't be an "orange" road, as it doesn't go anywhere. And although it cannot be discerned on the map, A-132 between Concilio and the Longas (or "Longares (Cinco Villas)" as I like to call that village xD) turnoff is indeed included, it wouldn't make sense for that section to be excluded. I'm going to download the documents like I did with the (far better done BTW) ones for the new intercity bus concessions a couple years ago.


----------



## alserrod

A-125 would join two out of main Aragonese cities: Huesca and Ejea but, being part of first regional network it is so narrow that everybody makes a detour


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## ChrisZwolle

Does this plan include any autovía construction? The ARA-Ax routes? They are scanned so searching for names or numbers isn't feasible.


----------



## alserrod

I have read 10ish news in last months and this is 1st one about Gallur-Ejea...but it was considered a long time ago

I bet...not to start in next years


----------



## CNGL

BTW, reading the documents I've found the Valderrobres bypass is included among the projects (in number 10 to be exact). This is the only notable project of the plan, although of course it won't be a motorway like other sections of A-231 xD.


----------



## alserrod

And no news about Valderrobres bypass, just to work on current bridge


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An overheight combination caught fire underneath an overpass of B-23 in Sant Joan Despí, which is a suburb of Barcelona. 

Fires like these could compromise a structure, but maybe the fire wasn't big enough to close it all down. Google Maps shows the motorway open.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1320763248766058498

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1320757905621192704


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## alserrod

La Vuelta cycling tour finished near Portalet pass last Sunday.

It was quite clear to watch in TV that it required an asphalt refurbishment. Somewhere near Formigal there were signs for cyclers to avoid some sides of the road to avoid accidents


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## ChrisZwolle

Cartagena 😅 


















La única carretera con pico esquina está en Cartagena: la chapuza para no invadir otro terreno


Los vecinos se quejan por el bordillo triangular. "Es un riesgo para la seguridad vial. Se van a producir accidentes", se quejan a EL ESPAÑOL.




www.elespanol.com


----------



## verreme

^^ hno:



alserrod said:


> La Vuelta cycling tour finished near Portalet pass last Sunday.
> 
> It was quite clear to watch in TV that it required an asphalt refurbishment. Somewhere near Formigal there were signs for cyclers to avoid some sides of the road to avoid accidents


The Portalet/Pourtalet pass is indeed in bad condition on the Spanish side:


----------



## CNGL

I knew a video of the Portalet pass wouldn't be only French D934 (N134bis until 1973), but also A-136 (C-136 until early 90s). IDK if that was the error in the trip's preview.

BTW, the waters flowing down the North side of that part of the Pyrenees don't reach the Garonne river, but rather the Adour, which enters the Bay of Biscay at Bayonne.

_N.b.: translation of my own comment I wrote for that video in YouTube itself. The video description already addreses the river error._


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A boatload of EU funding allows the Spanish government to present a spending spree in 2021:

Infrastructure receives € 4.7 billion in EU funding. The railroad expenditure will be € 5.8 billion and € 2.3 billion on roads.

Maintenance will get a boost in 2021:









The ministry funding is the highest in a decade.









EU funding amounts to € 26.6 billion in 2021.


----------



## geogregor

During my driving tours of Tenerife I noticed they are starting construction of a tunnel north of Santiago del Teide:


DSC01284 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01275 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01276 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

After a bit of googling I found out that they are finally completing the ring road around Tenerife. The tunnel will be the longest on Canary Islands:


Works for Erjos Tunnel in Tenerife begin - tunnelbuilder.com News



> The works to complete Tenerife’s motorway ring road started on the 25th November 2019. The project, which has an investment of EUR 240.4 million and has to be completed within 48 months, is a fundamental infrastructure, to alleviate traffic congestion on the TF-5 motorway in Santa Cruz de Tenerife. The new 11.27 km section will link north and south, joining the end of the TF1 at Santiago del Teide 22,609 km with the end of the TF5 in the town of San Juan del Reparo, in the municipality of El Tanque 11,270km. The project will include the 5.1 km twin-tube Erjos tunnel, running under the Teno Massif. The tunnel will be the longest in the Canaries and one of the longest road tunnels in Spain.


Erjos tunnel to link Santiago del Teide and El Tanque, and complete Tenerife motorway ring road, has started to be excavated – Janet Anscombe



> *Updated 7 October: *A considerable amount of preparatory work has been taking place over the past couple of months and today the Canarian Government and Cabildo have jointly announced that the Erjos tunnel that will link Santiago del Teide and El Tanque has finally been started.
> 
> Canarian Government public works Minister Sebastián Franquis said that today was historic because this area had been the victim of much talk and no action for far too long and, with the tunnel actually starting to be excavated today following the preparation of the ground for the heavy machinery needed, at last the tunnel was actually happening. At *5.1km*, *it will be the longest in the Canaries*, crossing the Teno massif without any surface effects on the Teno Rural Park. Works are estimated to take around 32 months, with the road to be completed and in use within four years in all.
> 
> Some 70 workers, 27 of them excavation specialists, will now proceed in a constant form of rotating shifts to tunnel an average of four metres a day at each of the tunnel mouths. They will be using a dozen specialized machines including the so-called jumbo, vehicles that drill and prepare the holes for the bores, as well as normal excavators, to advance in stages blasting and dilling mechanicallly to create the tunnel’s two tubes. Each of these will be 13m wide to facilitate two carriageways and a pavement for emergency evacuation: the width is intended, clearly, to allow for a third lane in the future. There will also be 19 transversal galleries connecting both tubes for emergency situations. The spoil from the excavations will be used to fill former quarries which will be restored as required by environmental requirements stipulated in the licensing granted for the works.
> 
> The regional Government says that the tunnel’s budget of €240,370,796 makes the closing of the Tenerife ring road not only the largest project currently being undertaken by the Canarian Government but the most valuable in the whole of Spain.


----------



## geogregor

Roads of Tenerife:

DSC00203 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00228 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00235 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00244 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00245 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00246 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00248 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## sponge_bob

Hear is a photo I took up around Teide last year where a road was driven through a lava field. 

The plateau is at 2000m or so with the mountain sticking up another 1000m. The trees disappear at around 1800m and then you find yourself on the moon.


----------



## TarRoad

What on earth happened here?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That is MP-203. A concession was awarded to Cintra in 2005 to build the first toll road in ownership of the Madrid community. Construction was ceased in 2007 after about 70% completion. Most crucially, the bridge over the high-speed railway was never built. 

A very short section near Loeches was put into service in 2013.


----------



## alserrod

sponge_bob said:


> Hear is a photo I took up around Teide last year where a road was driven through a lava field.
> 
> The plateau is at 2000m or so with the mountain sticking up another 1000m. The trees disappear at around 1800m and then you find yourself on the moon.



2200m to be accurate. I recommend to "climb" driving from San Cristobal de La Laguna. It is where you will see the peak easily and in a lot of corners you will have points to enjoy landscape. It is easy to see La Palma and Gran Canaria islands from there.

There's a plateau in 2200m indeed due to mountain was, in origin, higher and it got down. Rocks were fallen (a long time ago) through Puerto de la Cruz. Therefore, you can use an app in your mobile and notice altitude. Always increasing till 2200m... and you will find you are in a sort of "bowl" besides Teide.

As general information, may a student (never mind which level) be asked about highest peak in Spain, the only correct answer accepted is Teide (second is Mulhacen in Andalucia, third is Aneto in Aragon but highest is Teide).
It belongs to municipality of La Orotava and I do not know how they calculate weather forecast there since they reach from 200m osl till Teide peak


Happy to read about the tunnel. I drove there two years ago and it was a nightmare to make a ring in the island. You have to drive until 1100m!!!!


Bonus, it wasn't the last one but the most known one. 1000 pesetas banknote, the most used in Spain.

It is a picture of Teide peak spotted from 150m or so away from Parador de Turismo.
To be honest, picture is a fake. This is... it is impossible to have those rocks in that position over the peak. I was there and... they were partially moved inside the picture


----------



## geogregor

alserrod said:


> 2200m to be accurate.


That's what I wanted to write, and the peak of El Teide is still 1.5 km higher than that.




> Happy to read about the tunnel. I drove there two years ago and it was a nightmare to make a ring in the island. You have to drive until 1100m!!!!


Oh, it will definitely improve transport there. But as a tourist I love those mountain roads.



> I recommend to "climb" driving from San Cristobal de La Laguna. It is where you will see the peak easily and in a lot of corners you will have points to enjoy landscape. It is easy to see La Palma and Gran Canaria islands from there.


I drove in the opposite direction, from El Teide down to La Laguna. Fantastic road, up there with some of the most scenic I ever drove. And the views:


DSC00623 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Anyway, a few more shots from surroundings of El Teide:


DSC02016 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02019 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02020 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02022 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02023 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02024 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02031 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02032 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02093 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02095 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm under the impression that Tenerife is also interesting for tourists that aren't looking to stay in a resort in Maspalomas for 10 days like on Gran Canaria?


----------



## sponge_bob

The roads up on the Tenerife plateau are great but you gotta climb 2000m in a short time to get up there first. Can anyone think of any similarly high plateau in Europe, 

I think there is one around the Swiss/Italian/Austrian border at 2000m but you won't be going up that one on christmas day where you could do the Teide plateau in Tenerife any time


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm under the impression that Tenerife is also interesting for tourists that aren't looking to stay in a resort in Maspalomas for 10 days like on Gran Canaria?


To be honest you can say it about most of the Canary Islands. They have mass tourisms ghettos but also things interesting for people like myself. I hate beach holidays etc.

I would like to go hiking in mountains of La Palma and Gran Canaria.

Next time, when they let us travel again...


----------



## sponge_bob

geogregor said:


> I would like to go hiking in mountains of La Palma and Gran Canaria.


Go to Gomera then, west of Tenerife. It is a sort of weird tropical island in Europe because it is in the cloud not above it like the Teide plateau. And it is off topic because you cannot really drive anywhere there.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

El Hierro by Alessio Rodinò, en Flickr
La Gomera by Pavel, en Flickr

La Palma by Jan de Wit, en Flickr

Parque nacional Timanfaya - Lanzarote island by lucianopadin, en Flickr


Mountain Road, Gran Canaria Spain by Chris van Kan, en Flickr
Towards the coast - Ajuy, Fuerteventura by Zaphod Beeblebrox 1970, en Flickr
La Graciosa by Piotr Lewandowski, en Flickr


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm under the impression that Tenerife is also interesting for tourists that aren't looking to stay in a resort in Maspalomas for 10 days like on Gran Canaria?


I've just tried to glance in the Canary statistic institute web and it was a really nightmare of databases...
Therefore, and unofficial, this web could be fine too









Número de turistas por isla en Canarias en 2021 | Statista


En 2021, cerca de la mitad de los turistas que llegaron a Canarias por vía aérea lo hicieron a las islas de Tenerife y Gran Canaria.




es.statista.com





Briefly and AFAIK:

Tenerife and Gran Canaria are the most populated islands.
Tenerife and Lanzarote are those chosen by Spanish population (Spanish PM remains one week or so in Lanzarote)
Fuerteventura is the island with more foreign tourism in percentage by far (each island is known for any situation and Fuerteventura is known after its beaches. Spanish people doesn't fly just for beaches... you can find similar ones by car
La Palma has barely flights to Madrid
El Hierro and La Gomera only ferries and some flights inside Canary islands (El Hierro has around 10.000 people only)

Anyway, as one mate who was born there and has relatives in all islands told me, each one is know after anything. Fuerteventura after beaches and surely Tenerife after Teide because beaches... few ones (and it is always cloudy)




geogregor said:


> To be honest you can say it about most of the Canary Islands. They have mass tourisms ghettos but also things interesting for people like myself. I hate beach holidays etc.
> 
> I would like to go hiking in mountains of La Palma and Gran Canaria.
> 
> Next time, when they let us travel again...



Last time I was in Canary islands I was in 3 islands in 13 days and... no beach!!!!!!
Some pools, some seascapes and a lot of relax and tourism but no beach at all!!!




sponge_bob said:


> Go to Gomera then, west of Tenerife. It is a sort of weird tropical island in Europe because it is in the cloud not above it like the Teide plateau. And it is off topic because you cannot really drive anywhere there.


on topic and mode ad=on

- hire a car with CICAR. It is a local rent a car company with offices in ALL islands. I think it is the only one that lets you leave the car in a different office without extra charge (I hired in Tenerife north airport and departed from Tenerife south) and it is also the only company that lets you move the car within islands for free providing you return to the origin. This is... you can go from Tenerife to Gomera AND RETURN (ask for price if you do not return, they will allow but not for free).
The issue is, may you have a crash or any problem, car remains in a different island and they have enough infrastructure in each island.

I booked a return ticket for car+4 people. It had, more or less, similar price than a day-tour incluiding ferry, bus and single meal. I could drive in La Gomera to any destination I wanted and ... I would be sure that explanations inside the car would be in six or seven languages at least.

La Gomera hasn't beaches at all. It is hard to find where to have a bath. Opposite, scapes to Teide are.... BETTER than from Tenerife!!!
In some km you reach from the beach to inside Garajonay national park


Back to roads and nowadays La Gomera roads

This road is interesting to drive while night








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





If no moon... absolute darkness. It is inside a national park and as you can see, not far from the beach.


There are 3 main GM-X roads. East-west via centre GM-2, east-west via north GM-1 and north-south GM-3

This is GM-2








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





You will be able to drive 70 km/h more or less... just fine to drive and enjoy scapes. Big works are done to build it. It is not easy to build roads in that island

Easy to see Teide peak (easier from San Sebastian de la Gomera but day Google car drove, it was cloudy)








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





It has an airport in the southern side. 40 minutes by car from the capital. I bet it doesn't worth at all!!!








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





There are two daily flights to Tenerife norte airport. May you buy a ticket by ferry, a direct bus to Santa Cruz harbour is included (50 minutes ferry)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A preliminary figure for traffic deaths on the interurban roads has been published: 870, a drop of 21% compared to 2019. They also note that traffic volumes were 25% below normal due to the restrictions, lockdowns and absense of tourist traffic.









La Moncloa. 07/01/2021. Los accidentes de tráfico se cobran la vida de 870 personas durante el año pasado [Prensa/Actualidad/Interior]


jueves, 7 de enero de 2021. Durante el año 2020 se han producido en las vías interurbanas 797 accidentes mortales en los que han fallecido 870 personas y otras 3.463 requirieron ingreso hospitalario, lo que supone un descenso de un 21 por ciento en el número de accidentes y fallecidos (-213...




www.lamoncloa.gob.es





The official definition of a traffic fatality by Eurostat is a death within 30 days of a crash. Since the new year isn't 30 days old yet, the figure should be treated as preliminary. Furthermore, the figure only includes the 'vías interurbanas', which normally amount to around 60-65% of all traffic deaths in Spain, so the data is still incomplete. Statistical agencies across Europe typically publish the definitive figures in March, April or May.


----------



## Reivajar

Snapshot on 08.01.2021 at 21:25

Guess where there are some issues due to weather conditions:


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## Reivajar

Motorways accessing Madrid:
































































M-40 ring road:









Motorway A-42 close to Toledo









Motorway A-31 in Albacete


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's a _Madridlock








_


----------



## x-type

It seems that it has reached Zaragoza tonight, the traffic there seems to be collapsed too.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Madrid motorway system is now deserted.


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## id037

M-30 is now a playground 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347892956511002624


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## spoortje nijverdal

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Madrid motorway system is now deserted.


Maybe the best way to beat covid-19....


----------



## Bender

I guess there is no word for "winter tires" in spanish


----------



## alserrod

Bender said:


> I guess there is no word for "winter tires" in spanish



"Ruedas de invierno" (o neumáticos de invierno)

They exist but they are not often used. Be sure most of territory doesn't have any snow drop in the whole year.
I live in the fifth largest city, it was two years ago without snow and... It was barely 2cm in some hours and gone.
I just remember 2005 as last "big snow" and not so big as this one.


My father has winter tires. There's a garage where they keep them and replace in November and April. They stay in a village over 1000m (and nowadays with more than 1m snow). In that area it is often to have them... but in the rest of the country, be sure they will not.

In addition, rental car companies doesn't offer winter tires, just chains if requested


----------



## Reivajar

Well, after all they are commenting on media that this is the heavier snowfall in the last 50 years in Madrid. May climate change bring more frequent extreme episodes? Who knows.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

alserrod said:


> Be sure most of territory doesn't have any snow drop in the whole year.


There are quite a bit of ski areas scattered around Spain though, outside of the Pyrenees. I've been to Alto Campoo, San Isidro, Pajares, Leitariegos, Javalambre, Valdelinares and Béjar, all during the summer.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are quite a bit of ski areas scattered around Spain though, outside of the Pyrenees. I've been to Alto Campoo, San Isidro, Pajares, Leitariegos, Javalambre, Valdelinares and Béjar, all during the summer.



Sure (and I know quite well some out of them). In these areas... people will have winter tires surely.

But as said, in areas where it doesn't snow, people avoid them


----------



## Reivajar

This is interesting in a broader sense regarding how Google Maps traffic data collection and algorithms work.

Snapshot on 10.01.2021 at 2:26 am










Virtually Google Maps is not collecting data from a large part of the newtrok, arguably because there are no people moving, hence there are not mobile devices collecting data.

















Technically, it is a data blackout in central Spain.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You can see this effect at night in sparsely populated regions of the United States and Canada, when there is not enough traffic for Google to calculate travel times. The roads show up as 'no data' or only in one direction.


----------



## alserrod

Traffic staff are doing the best to make trucks advancing through after 48 hours stopped. It is known in which roadside areas they are every one (I have read 1400ish in Aragon).
One point is... supply, they can have basic goods that couldn't arrive to destination. Therefore, and as fas as snow is not so great in some corners, they try to see if advancing to next node makes them continuing for free to destination


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## Reivajar

There are some interesting images of vehicles just abandoned on the motorways because of the intense snow 2 days ago.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348239769122336768


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## verreme

Bender said:


> I guess there is no word for "winter tires" in spanish


Spain is ill-prepared for snow becaue it's very uncommon. Winter tires are not an issue, there are places where it snows regularly (the US Midwest for example) and people do not fit winter tires such as in central and northern Europe. The problem with us is that we lack snowplows, salt and workforce to clear the snow.

Which is not that much of a problem anyway since this amount of snowfall happens every 50 years or so. In Madrid, of course, because there are places in Spain where there's snow every winter (the Pyrenees, the Cantabrian mountains to name the biggest ones) and it doesn't create havoc.


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## ChrisZwolle

Snowy Madrid, as seen from the south/southeast. You can pinpoint all the motorways.


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## ChrisZwolle

verreme said:


> Spain is ill-prepared for snow becaue it's very uncommon. Winter tires are not an issue, there are places where it snows regularly (the US Midwest for example) and people do not fit winter tires such as in central and northern Europe. The problem with us is that we lack snowplows, salt and workforce to clear the snow.


I'm wondering though, the northern Meseta does seem to get snow semi-regularly down into the motorway and populated altitudes. Much of the land in that area is at 800 - 1100 meters altitude. These areas do have snow clearing equipment I assume? They've also built these dedicated truck parkings for winter storms on major routes across the Meseta. 

On the other hand the snow cover may not last very long outside of the real mountain ranges, so I assume that means that most drivers that don't go into the mountains regularly, also do not have snow / winter tires. Winter tires were succesfully marketed in the Netherlands even though the amount of days they really make a difference are very limited. Critics here argue that there is no need for winter tires for 3 or 5 days of snow per year.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Given that tolls are immensely unpopular in Spain, how is a vignette or electronic tolling system politically feasible?
> 
> I think it'll result in the same problems that Portugal is having: a massive shift to the old national roads. Which defeats its purpose.



Every car pays a mandatory tax. It is payed to the municipality where it is located owner on January 1st every year (except new cars, of course...)

I bet it would be enough to increase that tax


----------



## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> Every car pays a mandatory tax. It is payed to the municipality where it is located owner on January 1st every year (except new cars, of course...)
> 
> I bet it would be enough to increase that tax


But then you will target also cars that would never take motorways.


----------



## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> But then you will target also cars that would never take motorways.


Of course, but in that messy-system located on Spanish administrations, motorways and national roads are managed by Ministry, despite regional ones (even motorways) are by regional governments and can set vignette, tolls or shadow tolls (they make indeed)

Nevertheless, few, few cars would never get a motorway. OK, you will always find people with a second car only for off-road, for cities or something else as well as foreing plate cars don't pay it.

Anyway... let's consider before untolling, ministry had a budget for all motorways and roads. It is easy to ckeck that in AP-1 they had to set a budget as well as N-1 decreased too fast for instance. Traffic remains the same.


----------



## verreme

sponge_bob said:


> These are the same feckers who lobbied to get the Radiales built out of Madrid in the 2000s so I would ignore them. They got paid but he taxpayer had to bail the roads out in the end. It's like putting heroin addicts in charge of drugs policy.


Well these f*ckers are the ones who finance the major Spanish political parties. Politicians are their puppets. Construction companies owned by large Spanish banks had politicians bail out roads they convinced politicians to build in the first place. They do the same in the US (HOT lanes anyone?) or Latin America. Is it a bit like putting the wolf to care for the sheep? Well capitalism works that way.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Given that tolls are immensely unpopular in Spain, how is a vignette or electronic tolling system politically feasible?
> 
> I think it'll result in the same problems that Portugal is having: a massive shift to the old national roads. Which defeats its purpose.


Spanish politicians do not care about tolling being popular or not. The only reason why they haven't implemented nationwide road tolling is because the current government coalitions are too weak and this issue could trigger a _moción de censura_ to topple the President. When Spain returns to bipartidism (which is happening right now), whatever government in charge will come up with some road tolling scheme to please Cintra, Abertis, Acciona and their other friends.

And if traffic shifts to national roads and there are more accidents, they'll come up with reports saying that people speed more and more because the pandemic or the recession or whatever (this has happened in the past: the media says whatever they are told to) and they'll lower the speed limit and ban overtaking. If it doesn't work, they'll do it over and over again until all roads are restricted to 50 km/h. It's what they always do.

In Portugal this happened earlier than in Spain because Portugal is a small economy and had nothing to say against the Troika. Spain is a bigger country and has more power in the EU. But this power can only buy time. Sooner or later the big Spanish banks will claim their chunk of the country and the State will give them the roads. Am I pessimistic? Maybe. But this has been the history of Spain since the early 2000s.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-7 is still closed near Castell de Ferro.


----------



## alserrod

Spoted by myself.

It is Gallur-west junction in A-68 and looking forward where A-68 ends nowadays


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A set of aerial photos showing the progress of A-33 at Caudete:









Reportaje de las obras de la autovía A-33 en Caudete a vista de pájaro


Reportaje de las obras de la autovía A-33 en Caudete a vista de pájaro | Caudete Digital




caudetedigital.com


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Tres Caminos interchange near Cádiz will be reconstructed for € 89 million. This interchange is located at the end of A-4, where CA-33 meets A-48. It is presently a modified trumpet interchange.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A landslide has affected the under construction A-63 east of Salas in Asturias. It also blocked N-634. This could mean significant delays for the construction of A-63. Construction of this segment started around 2007 but was shut down in 2010 due to the budget crisis. Construction was restarted in 2019 with an estimated opening in 2021 at that time. I'm pretty sure that won't be possible.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-7 has reopened to traffic today near Castell de Ferro, six weeks after the landslide. It turns out that most of the motorway is still blocked, they routed westbound traffic across the exit ramp and onramp, while eastbound traffic uses the shoulder of the opposite carriageway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A southeast bypass of Cáceres in Extremadura will open soon. They did a static load test today:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1386738607705165827
It's not visible in Google Earth imagery yet. Open Street Map shows it as an urban four lane road with roundabouts: OpenStreetMap


----------



## Reivajar

Sentinel picture taken on April 6 shows the whole new section.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Madrid - El Molar*

The plans for the A-1 expansion north of Madrid have been published: Clave: AO-M-0071 | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana

Of interest is the _Trazado planta general cartográfico_, which is an 80 MB PDF that contains the design of the wider A-1.

The collector system of A-1 will be extended north. It currently ends at the south side of Alcobendas, but will be extended much farther north, all the way to the south side of El Molar, though they seem to become a progressively lower standard farther north. It appears to be a full standard collector lane until M-50, then somewhat substandard features up to near San Agustín del Guadalix and with lots of driveway access on the northernmost part.

However they are not service roads like in most places where they go through intersections or roundabouts at interchanges. These service roads continue along the main lanes underneath each overpass of an interchange, so they are free-flow all the way from Madrid to El Molar. This means that A-1 remains 10 lanes wide all the way from Madrid to El Molar. (2+3+3+2 configuration).

Examples:

M-12 interchange in Alcobendas









M-50 interchange in San Sebastián de los Reyes









RACE interchange









San Agustín del Guadalix


----------



## Reivajar

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A1 Madrid - El Molar*
> 
> The plans for the A-1 expansion north of Madrid have been published: Clave: AO-M-0071 | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana
> 
> Of interest is the _Trazado planta general cartográfico_, which is an 80 MB PDF that contains the design of the wider A-1.
> 
> The collector system of A-1 will be extended north. It currently ends at the south side of Alcobendas, but will be extended much farther north, all the way to the south side of El Molar, though they seem to become a progressively lower standard farther north. It appears to be a full standard collector lane until M-50, then somewhat substandard features up to near San Agustín del Guadalix and with lots of driveway access on the northernmost part.
> 
> However they are not service roads like in most places where they go through intersections or roundabouts at interchanges. These service roads continue along the main lanes underneath each overpass of an interchange, so they are free-flow all the way from Madrid to El Molar. This means that A-1 remains 10 lanes wide all the way from Madrid to El Molar. (2+3+3+2 configuration).
> 
> Examples:
> 
> M-12 interchange in Alcobendas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M-50 interchange in San Sebastián de los Reyes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RACE interchange
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San Agustín del Guadalix


What I have noticed in this upgrade is the completely lack of HOV lanes. Particularly, when at some point there were plans for adding them to every single mayor motorway accessing Madrid. But now here it has dissapeared that interest. Maybe they consider that the service roads should be anough for ensuring high service level for mas transit?


----------



## verreme

Looks like they're doing what they did on A-2 between Madrid and Guadalajara with service roads/collector lanes. I would like to see this setup be implemented on more _autovías_ as the number of mainline junctions could be reduced and you'd get rid of local traffic hoping on the freeway for 2 kilometers.

As for HOV lanes, I'm happy not to see them in the plans, politicians love them but in reality they are just soccer mom lanes. I'd rather see bus lanes, or some kind of bus bypass at busy junctions.


----------



## Reivajar

verreme said:


> Looks like they're doing what they did on A-2 between Madrid and Guadalajara with service roads/collector lanes. I would like to see this setup be implemented on more _autovías_ as the number of mainline junctions could be reduced and you'd get rid of local traffic hoping on the freeway for 2 kilometers.
> 
> As for HOV lanes, I'm happy not to see them in the plans, politicians love them but in reality they are just soccer mom lanes. I'd rather see bus lanes, or some kind of bus bypass at busy junctions.


Well, to be precise, my worry about the lack of dedicated lanes is because of mass transit, not for private vehicles (the soccer mom SUV's lanes you were refering to, LOL). Maybe busways would be a better way to name them, although later on, their management can be different and may be just generic HOV lanes. Anyhow, I agree that just adding bypasses where necessary can be effective with a smaller cost.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A section of CV-35 has been widened to six lanes to Llíria (northwest of Valencia). The new lanes opened yesterday: Nota informativa sobre las obras de la CV-35 tramo Pobla de Vallbona-Llíria (apertura tráfico)


----------



## g.spinoza

Spain plans to introduce tolls on all state and regional highways


The executive has told Brussels that the system will be in place on high-capacity motorways by 2024, affecting both passenger cars and trucks, and may later be rolled out to national roads




english-elpais-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Tolling seems so wildly unpopular, why would the government risk this?


----------



## zyro2012

ChrisZwolle said:


> Tolling seems so wildly unpopular, why would the government risk this?


by an huge economic crisis? I think Portugal did it after the rescue.

Pensions are also in danger, but I have already seen a politician say that you cannot ask a grandmother to finance the highways.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Expenditures on highways are about € 2 billion per year. That is an insignificant figure compared to social spending.


----------



## zyro2012

ChrisZwolle said:


> Expenditures on highways are about € 2 billion per year. That is an insignificant figure compared to social spending.


the comparison will be made by the politician to justify the measure and make it less unpopular.

In any case, other countries took that measure, Spain would not be the first. Politicians will already invent a way "to sell" it better.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Expenditures on highways are about € 2 billion per year. That is an insignificant figure compared to social spending.


The fact that it's insignificant compared to other spending does not automatically mean that I would be prepared to spend it.

Besides, maybe that 2b€ expenditure has already been judged insufficient and tolling would be a way to increase it.

Just making and hypotesis


----------



## verreme

zyro2012 said:


> by an huge economic crisis? I think Portugal did it after the rescue.
> 
> Pensions are also in danger, but I have already seen a politician say that you cannot ask a grandmother to finance the highways.


Yeah don't ask her to finance schools either, she won't be using them anyway.

That politician is the director of Dirección General de Tráfico, Pere Navarro. Who is not a politician (he is not elected at any election) but designated by a ministry. As I have said multiple times, tolls will definitely come sooner or later, Spain wants to "compensate" big construction companies with concessions now that no massive infrastructure is being tendered anymore yet they (these companies) keep financing political parties


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The motorway extension of Ma-19 from Llucmajor to Campos on Mallorca will open to traffic next Monday, 17 May: La autopista de Llucmajor a Campos se inaugura el próximo lunes


----------



## alserrod

I drove there last summer.

There's a strong difference between MA-15 (dual carriageway and with many roundabouts) and MA-19 or MA-13

Depending on destination I would try to use the most MA-13 instead of MA-15


----------



## verreme

This doesn't happen often: two motorway openings that consist on second carriageways being added to single-carriageway expressways that were designed to be duplicated.

Oddly enough  the Spanish project was much faster despite being a bit longer. Works started in end 2019 so it's only been 18 months. CV-35 has a shadow toll concession so I guess the paperwork is much simpler. It's good however that the expansion of this motorway was not ransom to the recent court ruling against Sacyr regarding the toll they charge to Generalitat Valenciana for every vehicle. Sacyr wanted to increase this toll based on the feasibility studies of CV-35 having been made before the 2008 recession, and thus traffic being lower than expected. They had also postponed the start of the works to enlarge the motorway, because the contract stated they should haven been finished by end 2016.

Fortunately enough, for once the court has understood that concessionnaires have to take risks of their own because that's what business is about. I say "for once" because court rulings tend to favour the big Spanish contractors. 



Kemo said:


> *S1 E75, Poland*
> 
> Second carriageway of S1 motorway between Pyrzowice-Airport and Podwarpie has been opened yesterday. This section is 10 km long.
> It is a part of the ringroad around the Silesian Metropolis and also a part of international route E75 from Gdańsk to Slovakia.
> 
> Construction took 27 months.
> 
> 
> Map: Driving Directions - GraphHopper Maps





ChrisZwolle said:


> *CV-35 Autovía del Túria, Valencian Community, Spain
> 
> 18 May 2021*
> 
> The concession holder Sacyr has announced that the four lane expansion of CV-35 from Casinos to Losa del Obispo has been completed. This project has turned a 15.4 kilometer stretch of controlled-access two-lane road into a four lane autovía. This road originally opened in 2008 and was also built by Sacyr, it has a shadow toll concession for this road. Part of the project was a 6 kilometer long six lane expansion of CV-35 near Llíria. Both project only have cost € 35 million combined.
> 
> News report: Sacyr acaba les obres d'ampliació de la CV-35 després d'una inversió de 35 milions d'euros
> 
> Press release: fin-obra-autovia-turia-CV-35 • Sacyr
> 
> Map: OpenStreetMap


----------



## ChrisZwolle

For those interested in Spanish road numbering system: Cáceres province renumbered their entire network: http://www.juntaex.es/filescms/con07/uploaded_files/dgi/BORRADOR_DECRETO.pdf

The decimal routes have now been replaced by 3-digit CC routes. It seems that all roads were renumbered.

A quick scan on Street View shows me that these decimal numbers weren't signed. I looked at a dozen intersections and I haven't seen any CC-route signed.


----------



## alsama

*A-73


































































































*


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> For those interested in Spanish road numbering system: Cáceres province renumbered their entire network: http://www.juntaex.es/filescms/con07/uploaded_files/dgi/BORRADOR_DECRETO.pdf
> 
> The decimal routes have now been replaced by 3-digit CC routes. It seems that all roads were renumbered.
> 
> A quick scan on Street View shows me that these decimal numbers weren't signed. I looked at a dozen intersections and I haven't seen any CC-route signed.


Apparently this numbering was decreed by Extremadura, but Caceres province didn't bother to renumber their roads according to this until now. Badajoz already did so when the mandate came out. I only knew this renumbering was happening thanks to Wikipedia.


----------



## alserrod

WTF about roundabouts!!!









Segovia · Segovia, Spain


Segovia, Spain




www.google.com


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Today is the first time a new system is tested on AP-4 / A-4 south of Sevilla, where the southbound carriageway is reduced to a single lane, so that the left lane becomes an additional Sevilla-bound lane for traffic returning from the beaches. That means 3 lanes northbound and 1 lane southbound on Sunday evenings. The additional lane begins near Las Cabezas de San Juan (where A-471 traffic joins AP-4) and ends south of Sevilla, where A-4 widens up to 3 regular lanes.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1401559208747753474

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1401560914617372680


----------



## verreme

^^ This has been done for decades on AP-7 and C-32 in the approaches to Barcelona. Before the opening of C-32, it was also done on C-31 (Barcelona-Castelldefels).

They only do it on especially busy weekends but it works smoothly. The Spanish driving code mandates a speed limit of 80 km/h in the carriageway where a contraflow lane is used, and you must turn on your traffic lights.


----------



## arctic_carlos

verreme said:


> ^^ This has been done for decades on AP-7 and C-32 in the approaches to Barcelona. Before the opening of C-32, it was also done on C-31 (Barcelona-Castelldefels).
> 
> They only do it on especially busy weekends but it works smoothly. The Spanish driving code mandates a speed limit of 80 km/h in the carriageway where a contraflow lane is used, and you must turn on your traffic lights.


At least now they only do it in motorways. 15 years ago they used to do it in normal 1+1 roads with wide shoulders, where an additional lane was created reducing the width of each lane with traffic cones.

I remember that being used on summer sundays in the Costa Brava road between Palamós and Maçanet (now a motorway) and honestly it was quite scary.


----------



## verreme

arctic_carlos said:


> At least now they only do it in motorways. 15 years ago they used to do it in normal 1+1 roads with wide shoulders, where an additional lane was created reducing the width of each lane with traffic cones.
> 
> I remember that being used on summer sundays in the Costa Brava road between Palamós and Maçanet (now a motorway) and honestly it was quite scary.


Yes this is correct. 

In this 1967 newsreel you can see two-lane roads functioning exceptionally as one-way (I believe one of them is road M-305, former N-IV, north of Aranjuez).


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## ChrisZwolle

The rockslide on A-7 near Castell de Ferro (Granada province) has been cleared. The motorway is back in service with four lanes.


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## ChrisZwolle

The southeastern bypass of Cáceres has been inaugurated today. It links EX-206 to N-521 on the east side of the city. The construction cost was € 22 million.






Fernández Vara destaca la importancia de que las empresas de la región hayan ejecutado la obra de la Ronda Sureste de Cáceres


...




www.juntaex.es













La ronda sureste de Cáceres entra en servicio


Tras tres años de obras desde hoy se podrá circular por ella




www.ondacero.es


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## ChrisZwolle

The N-338 four lane upgrade near the airport of Alicante will be inaugurated tomorrow (18 June). 

N-338 is now a four lane autovía from A-70 to N-332 and 4.5 kilometers long. Here's some footage from FCC. It shows autovía signs but not a new A-number. It remains N-338, making it one of the few N-roads with autovía status outside of Basque Country.


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## alserrod

Here you have another N-XX motorway (too short also)









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


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## ChrisZwolle

And this one near Albacete: Google Maps

I don't think there are many more (except Basque Country).


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## ChrisZwolle

Apparently the A-4 / N-IV duplication between Dos Hermanas and Los Palacios y Villafranca has been put into service yesterday or today.

Given that AP-4 is now toll free and lack of motive for further construction, it wouldn't surprise me that if is signed as N-IV and not A-4. I guess we'll have to wait and see for photos or videos.









El Gobierno pone en servicio el desdoble de la carretera entre Dos Hermanas y Los Palacios


La ministra de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana, Raquel Sánchez, ha anunciado el fin de las obras



sevilla.abc.es






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1420465545107976205


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> The supreme court has dismissed the appeals against the construction of the bypass of Jaca (A-21). Construction could start next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El Supremo da luz verde a la variante de la autovía por Jaca
> 
> 
> Los opositores al proyecto, que pasa por el norte de la ciudad, dicen que destruirá el paisaje
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.elperiodicodearagon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it common for road projects to be appealed against at the high court? I don't read a whole lot about such issues.



Yeah, it is uncommon but at anytime a Court dismiss your case, you can appeal upper Court.

AFAIK, in this case there were two issues

south solution would be the best because there aren't any small villages around, but Sabiñanigo-Jaca was built focused to the North
there are small villages who have appealed. They know they were going to lose and they agreed not to have an exit around. I do not know where the exit will be on but they do not want their roads as main road through motorways. They are basicly tiny villages and they prefer to have a detour to reach the motorway (10 minutes for instance) rather than just 1 minute and a lot of traffic (they are people who have gone there exactly to be away from people and traffic indeed)

BTW, it was a surprise for me, I thought this issue was already over


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A contract has been awarded for the construction of the N-432 bypass of Zafra in Badajoz province:





__





Mitma licita las obras de la variante de la N-432 en Zafra | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





This will be a two-lane bypass. But it is also located in the corridor of A-81 (Badajoz - Córdoba - Granada). The fact that this is not built to autovía standards indicates that A-81 is still a long way off, if it will be constructed at all. A-81 would be over 400 kilometers long, but there seems to be very little planning for it.


----------



## arctic_carlos

“Licitar” means to tender, “adjudicar” means to award. So the contract hasn’t been awarded yet.



ChrisZwolle said:


> A contract has been awarded for the construction of the N-432 bypass of Zafra in Badajoz province:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mitma licita las obras de la variante de la N-432 en Zafra | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mitma.es
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This will be a two-lane bypass. But it is also located in the corridor of A-81 (Badajoz - Córdoba - Granada). The fact that this is not built to autovía standards indicates that A-81 is still a long way off, if it will be constructed at all. A-81 would be over 400 kilometers long, but there seems to be very little planning for it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I always get those two mixed up.

A tender has also been started for the plan approval of the westernmost part of A-43 in Extremadura, an 11 kilometer segment between A-5 at Torrefresneda and the bypass of Santa Amalia. The estimated construction cost is € 62 million.





__





Mitma licita el contrato de redacción del proyecto de la A-43 entre Torrefresneda (A-5) y Santa Amalia | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es


----------



## J N Winkler

In fact, the Zafra bypass was advertised just this morning.

Deeplink to 23-BA-4110 contract page on the PCSP

I wonder if this reflects a trend toward expensive (tens of millions of euros) single-carriageway improvements. In the spring MITMA advertised an €87 million contract in Cantabria province (20-S-5930.A) to upgrade a segment of the N-621 that closely follows the Deva river within its gorge. The project features numerous curve straightenings and long lengths of sidehill viaduct, yet will increase the design speed only modestly.

On an unrelated note, I've just searched unsuccessfully for the _proyecto de construcción_ for the Ronda Sur de Badajoz, mentioned upthread. The contract currently in progress does not have an anchor page on the PCSP. I've learned it was advertised in July 2017, before the major reform of public sector contracting later that year that seems to have prompted many agencies to overhaul their contracting platforms. Junta de Extremadura is the owning agency for the Badajoz bypass, and they seem to have dumped the contractor profiles they used to host before 2018. I did finally find an advertisement in the official gazette.

I've returned to looking more closely at highway construction in Spain after a hiatus of several years, and aside from the 2017 contracting reform, the biggest change I've seen is that documents for large projects are no longer distributed on optical media. Instead, they are often uploaded to online file-transfer platforms, often cloud-based, and download links are included in the contract advertisements. This is certainly more convenient than asking for a DVD to be sent in the mail, but the links are often set to expire with the closing date for tenders (you snooze, you lose), and I've run into many examples of new links having to be posted when the original ones stop working.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> The supreme court has dismissed the appeals against the construction of the bypass of Jaca (A-21). Construction could start next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El Supremo da luz verde a la variante de la autovía por Jaca
> 
> 
> Los opositores al proyecto, que pasa por el norte de la ciudad, dicen que destruirá el paisaje
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.elperiodicodearagon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it common for road projects to be appealed against at the high court? I don't read a whole lot about such issues.


Yes it is, though not as much as in other countries; usually, disputes are solved before getting to court. 

An example I know of in Catalonia the extension of C-32 towards Lloret de Mar, which is stuck in a long-lasting legal battle. There was also a court case for A-2 in Cervera, which also delayed the construction of the final stretch of C-25 (which opened in 1999 or 2000, a bit later than the rest of the road).


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> I always get those two mixed up.
> 
> A tender has also been started for the plan approval of the westernmost part of A-43 in Extremadura, an 11 kilometer segment between A-5 at Torrefresneda and the bypass of Santa Amalia. The estimated construction cost is € 62 million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mitma licita el contrato de redacción del proyecto de la A-43 entre Torrefresneda (A-5) y Santa Amalia | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mitma.es


"Redacción de proyecto" means the detailed design; the preliminary studies have already been approved.

I wonder whether they will actually push forward this project; AFAIK the western sections of A-43 went through environmentally sensitive areas and the Spanish Government was never very interested on it. However if "Redacción de proyecto" is tendered this means that the environmental impact assessment has been already been issued and is positive.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

J N Winkler said:


> In the spring MITMA advertised an €87 million contract in Cantabria province (20-S-5930.A) to upgrade a segment of the N-621 that closely follows the Deva river within its gorge. The project features numerous curve straightenings and long lengths of sidehill viaduct, yet will increase the design speed only modestly.


This is an extremely curvy road and many curves have a terribly poor radius. Any upgrade to 90 - 100 km/h design speed or better would require almost an entirely underground route. 

N-621 runs to Potes, which is a main service center for the western interior of Cantabria, but its function as a major through route is limited, so they probably cannot justify to spend more money on it than this.


----------



## J N Winkler

ChrisZwolle said:


> This is an extremely curvy road and many curves have a terribly poor radius. Any upgrade to 90 - 100 km/h design speed or better would require almost an entirely underground route.
> 
> N-621 runs to Potes, which is a main service center for the western interior of Cantabria, but its function as a major through route is limited, so they probably cannot justify to spend more money on it than this.


Yes--I can't imagine that the business case is there for an increase in lane count or open-road design speeds. Nevertheless, €87 million is quite a sum. This makes me wonder about a shift in priorities away from motorway construction.


----------



## alserrod

J N Winkler said:


> In fact, the Zafra bypass was advertised just this morning.
> 
> Deeplink to 23-BA-4110 contract page on the PCSP
> 
> I wonder if this reflects a trend toward expensive (tens of millions of euros) single-carriageway improvements. In the spring MITMA advertised an €87 million contract in Cantabria province (20-S-5930.A) to upgrade a segment of the N-621 that closely follows the Deva river within its gorge. The project features numerous curve straightenings and long lengths of sidehill viaduct, yet will increase the design speed only modestly.
> 
> On an unrelated note, I've just searched unsuccessfully for the _proyecto de construcción_ for the Ronda Sur de Badajoz, mentioned upthread. The contract currently in progress does not have an anchor page on the PCSP. I've learned it was advertised in July 2017, before the major reform of public sector contracting later that year that seems to have prompted many agencies to overhaul their contracting platforms. Junta de Extremadura is the owning agency for the Badajoz bypass, and they seem to have dumped the contractor profiles they used to host before 2018. I did finally find an advertisement in the official gazette.
> 
> I've returned to looking more closely at highway construction in Spain after a hiatus of several years, and aside from the 2017 contracting reform, the biggest change I've seen is that documents for large projects are no longer distributed on optical media. Instead, they are often uploaded to online file-transfer platforms, often cloud-based, and download links are included in the contract advertisements. This is certainly more convenient than asking for a DVD to be sent in the mail, but the links are often set to expire with the closing date for tenders (you snooze, you lose), and I've run into many examples of new links having to be posted when the original ones stop working.




Do you have any N-621 information link?

I am used to go somewhere 50 km around that point (it is not an easy road, indeed)


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I always get those two mixed up.
> 
> A tender has also been started for the plan approval of the westernmost part of A-43 in Extremadura, an 11 kilometer segment between A-5 at Torrefresneda and the bypass of Santa Amalia. The estimated construction cost is € 62 million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mitma licita el contrato de redacción del proyecto de la A-43 entre Torrefresneda (A-5) y Santa Amalia | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mitma.es



After environment issues

1- Tender project (licitar redacción de proyecto)
2- Award project (adjudicar redacción de proyecto)
3- Tender works (licitar obras)
4- Award works (adjudicar obras)

and 5- Picture with politicians in inauguration, of course


----------



## J N Winkler

alserrod said:


> Do you have any N-621 information link?


Yes!

Deeplink to 20-S-5930.A contract page on the PCSP

The _proyecto_ (links under _Pliego_/_Prescripciones Técnicas_) adds up to about 7.2 GB. It seems I misremembered the estimate, which is closer to €79 million.



alserrod said:


> I am used to go somewhere 50 km around that point (it is not an easy road, indeed)


I had a look at it on StreetView and it appears to be popular with motorcyclists.


----------



## alserrod

Yeah. I am going to travel to N-621 in the next weeks but reaching the opposite side of San Glorio pass.

I remember in 2008 I read first news about Potes by pass and never again!!


----------



## arctic_carlos

J N Winkler said:


> I wonder if this reflects a trend toward expensive (tens of millions of euros) single-carriageway improvements. In the spring MITMA advertised an €87 million contract in Cantabria province (20-S-5930.A) to upgrade a segment of the N-621 that closely follows the Deva river within its gorge. The project features numerous curve straightenings and long lengths of sidehill viaduct, yet will increase the design speed only modestly.


In my opinion, there’s no strategic long-term planning in Spain when it comes to road. Projects are simply tendered based on the availability of funds and when there’s enough political pressure in the area, regardless of whether it is a motorway or a conventional road. 

In the last few years the number of new projects (both motorways and conventional roads) is so ridiculously low, that a bypass on a conventional road in a small town in Extremadura can get so much attention. I can understand it, because, when its construction starts, the Zafra bypass will be the single road project in Extremadura being built by the central government.

Just take a look at ongoing projects in other Spanish regions: in Andalusia you can just find two A-32 sections in Jaén province, whose construction started before 2010, plus the refurbishment of the A-49/SE-30 interchange near Seville. In Castilla-La Mancha just the southern bypass of Albacete and the missing A-33 section near the tripoint between Valencia, Murcia and Castiilla-La Mancha. And in Madrid just the refurbishment of the A-6/M-40 interchange…


----------



## verreme

^^ In fact there are still many roads the construction of which was awarded before 2010 that have not been completed (A-32, A-73, B-40).

AFAIK these are the main state road projects U/C in all _Comunidades Autónomas_. Feel free to correct me as I will certainly forget some:


*Catalonia*: A-27 Túnel de Lilla, B-40 Abrera-Terrassa, N-II improvements b/n Tordera and Vidreres, A-2/AP-7 junction in Castellbisbal
*Comunitat Valenciana*: A-33 Yecla-Caudete, N-332 Benissa bypass, N-232 Querol pass
*Murcia*: MU-30 Beniaján-RM-1
*Andalucía*: SE-30/A-49 interchange, A-32 Torreperogil-Villanueva del Arzobispo
*Extremadura*: none
*Galicia*: A-54 Arzúa-Palas, A-57 A Ermida-Vilaboa
*Asturias*: A-63 Cornellana-Salas and Salas-La Espina
*Cantabria*: A-67/A-8 interchange
*Euskadi and Navarra*: none
*Aragón*: A-21 Tiermas-Sigües, A-22 Huesca bypass, A-23 Sabiñánigo bypass, A-68 Gallur-Mallén/Fuentes de Ebro-El Burgo de Ebro
*La Rioja*: A-68 Logroño bypass (AP-68 overhaul and widening)
*Castilla-La Mancha*: A-32 Albacete bypass
*Castilla y León*: A-73 Pedrosa de Valdelucio-Báscones de Valdivia, A-11 (4 stretches)
*Madrid*: A-6/M-40 interchange

This may seem a lot but it's nothing compared to the pre-2015 situation. Plus, many of these projects have been under construction for 10+ years. The tendering pace is extremely slow now so once these roads open there will be less and less kms U/C. Right now the Government is only commited to finish missing links such as A-21 and A-23, but new corridors like A-56, A-72 or A-32 seem to be in a limbo as they have been ready to be tendered for years but nothing has happened.

As for regional projects, there are almost none except for Galicia which remains pretty active as their road network is huge.


----------



## SeñorGol

I'd add the A-12 between Santo Domingo de la Calzada and Villamayor del Río (La Rioja and CyL). Also the A-12 Ibeas de Juarros-Burgos has been stopped for years... I'm not even sure whether works actually started or not.


----------



## verreme

^^ You can see they did nothing: Rescinden el contrato de la A-12 sin ningún metro construido


----------



## arctic_carlos

verreme said:


> ^^ In fact there are still many roads the construction of which was awarded before 2010 that have not been completed (A-32, A-73, B-40).
> 
> AFAIK these are the main state road projects U/C in all _Comunidades Autónomas_. Feel free to correct me as I will certainly forget some:
> 
> 
> *Catalonia*: A-27 Túnel de Lilla, B-40 Abrera-Terrassa, N-II improvements b/n Tordera and Vidreres, A-2/AP-7 junction in Castellbisbal
> *Comunitat Valenciana*: A-33 Yecla-Caudete, N-332 Benissa bypass, N-232 Querol pass
> *Murcia*: MU-30 Beniaján-RM-1
> *Andalucía*: SE-30/A-49 interchange, A-32 Torreperogil-Villanueva del Arzobispo
> *Extremadura*: none
> *Galicia*: A-54 Arzúa-Palas, A-57 A Ermida-Vilaboa
> *Asturias*: A-63 Cornellana-Salas and Salas-La Espina
> *Cantabria*: A-67/A-8 interchange
> *Euskadi and Navarra*: none
> *Aragón*: A-21 Tiermas-Sigües, A-22 Huesca bypass, A-23 Sabiñánigo bypass, A-68 Gallur-Mallén/Fuentes de Ebro-El Burgo de Ebro
> *La Rioja*: A-68 Logroño bypass (AP-68 overhaul and widening)
> *Castilla-La Mancha*: A-32 Albacete bypass
> *Castilla y León*: A-73 Pedrosa de Valdelucio-Báscones de Valdivia, A-11 (4 stretches)
> *Madrid*: A-6/M-40 interchange
> 
> This may seem a lot but it's nothing compared to the pre-2015 situation. Plus, many of these projects have been under construction for 10+ years. The tendering pace is extremely slow now so once these roads open there will be less and less kms U/C. Right now the Government is only commited to finish missing links such as A-21 and A-23, but new corridors like A-56, A-72 or A-32 seem to be in a limbo as they have been ready to be tendered for years but nothing has happened.
> 
> As for regional projects, there are almost none except for Galicia which remains pretty active as their road network is huge.


Your list is almost complete, but there are some missing motorway projects. The official list with all MITMA road projects (also including conventional roads, motorway interchange refurbishments and motorway widening projects) can be found in the following link: Visor Geográfico DGC

It was last updated a few weeks ago, so it still includes the two A-4 and A-33 sections that have recently opened. However, it doesn’t include any projects which were under construction but whose contracts were terminated (B-25 near Sant Boi, A-11 Aranda-Langa de Duero or A-12 Burgos-Ibeas de Juarros).


----------



## alserrod

I remember first works on A-12 started by 2001 in Navarrete, near current LO-20. There wasn't any bypass and thx to motorway they had it.

20 years later they do not know where it will reach (and when)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The GC-3 / Las Palmas bypass on Gran Canaria has opened to traffic today. This completes the bypass of Las Palmas.


----------



## Stuu

A question re tolling on AP7: last week I drove from Alicante airport to San Javier, I was charged €12.20 for the privilege, that seems quite expensive to me, is that segment different to others? I have driven down the AP7 west of Malaga and I'm sure it wasn't very expensive


----------



## alserrod

Stuu said:


> A question re tolling on AP7: last week I drove from Alicante airport to San Javier, I was charged €12.20 for the privilege, that seems quite expensive to me, is that segment different to others? I have driven down the AP7 west of Malaga and I'm sure it wasn't very expensive



It is, more or less, average toll in Spain. I have glanced distance and compared with another I know.

And difference is fatality on paralel road is really high.

The fact is euro/km as cost. Let's add something if extra tunnels or special bridges or so... but nothing relevant.

BTW, less than one month to have untolled from France to Salou and from Mediterranean to Zaragoza


----------



## ChrisZwolle

AP-7 west of Málaga has variable tolls (higher tolls in the high season). I'm not sure of AP-7 to San Javier.


----------



## Stuu

alserrod said:


> It is, more or less, average toll in Spain. I have glanced distance and compared with another I know.


That's surprising, it works out at just less than €1 per km for the tolled segment, which seems high, no wonder there was hardly any traffic!

Also, on that section of AP-7, what was the justification for the tunnel past Pilar de la Horadada? There doesn't seem much around there which needs the motorway hidden from


----------



## alserrod

Stuu said:


> A question re tolling on AP7: last week I drove from Alicante airport to San Javier, I was charged €12.20 for the privilege, that seems quite expensive to me, is that segment different to others? I have driven down the AP7 west of Malaga and I'm sure it wasn't very expensive





ChrisZwolle said:


> AP-7 west of Málaga has variable tolls (higher tolls in the high season). I'm not sure of AP-7 to San Javier.


I am glancing this PDF



https://www.mitma.gob.es/recursos_mfom/autopista_ap-7_alicante_-_cartagena_2021.pdf



Maximal toll seems to be 8,1 euro for a car. I really do not understand 12,20 euro.

Anyway, there are fares depending on season

low-season, october-may except Easter
high-season, june-september AND Easter (Easter means 17 days, Friday before Easter, all Easter week plus next week according to document, each year it will change)





Stuu said:


> That's surprising, it works out at just less than €1 per km for the tolled segment, which seems high, no wonder there was hardly any traffic!
> 
> Also, on that section of AP-7, what was the justification for the tunnel past Pilar de la Horadada? There doesn't seem much around there which needs the motorway hidden from


I have never driven in AP-7, thus I cannot reply you to that question.

Each motorway has its own tolls. Just one question, was it to get a ticket and pay on exit or to pay in different booths?

Most expensive toll in Spain was located in Mallorca. Soller tunnel.
Nowadays, most expensive one is C-32, Garraf tunnels (coming from Barcelona it is free until last exit before tunnels and since next exit after tunnels, there are four tunnels and toll.... is only for them, therefore, terribly expensive if you compare euro/km)


----------



## Boltzman

Stuu said:


> That's surprising, it works out at just less than €1 per km for the tolled segment, which seems high, no wonder there was hardly any traffic!


The fun fact for AP-7 is that the tolled segment is way smaller than the whole AP-7 in the area (Elche-Cartagena, some 100 km apart), so at the toll plaza you are paying for the whole stretch not just for the tolled section. Locals know this quite well so they may enter and exit the motorway without paying a cent as long as their trip doesn't go through any toll booth.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I found a toll overview of AP-7: https://www.mitma.gob.es/recursos_mfom/autopista_ap-7_alicante_-_cartagena_2020.pdf

The tolls are indeed based on high and low season. There are two toll plazas, so you indeed pay for the whole stretch on those two plazas.

The toll rate is € 4 + € 8 = € 12 in the high season, but only € 2,25 + € 4,50 = € 6,75 in the low season.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*North-South motorway, Fuerteventura*

Construction of the 17.5 km section La Caldereta - Puerto del Rosario - Airport started in September 2020, with a cost of €92 M and an expected execution time of 54 months.









En marcha las obras del nuevo tramo de 17 kilómetros de autovía en Fuerteventura







www.diariodefuerteventura.com





However, it's gonna open in stages, with the northernmost section (La Caldereta - Guisguey, 5 km, part of FV-1) expected to open in June 2022:









El tramo de la autovía La Caldereta-Guisguey entrará en funcionamiento en junio de 2022


El consejero de Obras Públicas del Gobierno de Canarias, Sebastián Franquis, supervisa el ritmo de las obras del eje norte-sur que ascienden a un total de 92 millones de




www.canarias7.es





The remaining section between Guisguey and the airport (including the motorway upgrade of Puerto del Rosario bypass, FV-3) will open in 2024.

The next motorway section to be tendered will be the 18 km-long Airport - Pozo Negro (FV-2) strectch, through an environmentally-sensitive area, with an expected cost of €161 M:









Así es la autovía del aeropuerto a Pozo Negro: 18 kilómetros, 161 millones y aves







www.diariodefuerteventura.com


----------



## arctic_carlos

*La Aldea - Agaete road, Gran Canaria*

Construction is underway on the second phase of the new La Aldea - Agaete road (GC-2), an expensive almost entirely underground road project along the western coast of Gran Canaria. Out of 8.5 km, 7.6 km will be underground (8 tunnels in total, including the twin-tube 2 km-long Faneque tunnel). So far, 3 km of the planned 7.6 km underground sections have already been dug.

The opening of the westernmost section is planned for the early 2022, with the complete project opening in 2025. More information:









La vía de El Risco a Agaete ya tiene tres kilómetros bajo tierra


Las perforaciones mantienen un buen ritmo y ya se han abierto 3.000 de los 7.500 metros que suman los ocho túneles planeados




www.laprovincia.es


----------



## arctic_carlos

*Tenerife island ring road*

Construction of the second to last section of Tenerife's "anillo insular" (El Tanque - Santiago del Teide, 11.3 km, € 240 M) is also underway, including the twin-tube 5.1 km-long Erjos tunnel, which currently has a 20% degree of execution. Opening expected in 2023:














Las obras del túnel de Erjos alcanzan el 20 por ciento del total


El proyecto unirá la autopista del norte y del sur de la isla con una vía más segura, más rápida y con mayor capacidad que la actual, la TF-82




rtvc.es





Once this section opens, the only missing one to complete the island ring will be the 11 km section between Los Realejos and Icod de los Vinos.


----------



## Eulanthe

Stuu said:


> I have driven down the AP7 west of Malaga and I'm sure it wasn't very expensive


AP-7 is also horrifically priced in-season - 7.65EUR from Fuengirola to Marbella for 28km, or the entire section is 14.50EUR for around 70km. It's only reasonable if you count the entire section from the Airport to Sotogrande.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*A-23 Sabiñánigo bypass*

You can follow the detailed construction progress of that section on the following thread, full of recent pictures:





__





A-23 - Autovía Nueno-Sabiñánigo-Jaca


Como no todos los que vamos a Jaca venimos de Navarra, País Vasco, Cantabria y demás, supongo que habrá gente de Zaragoza, Valencia, Madrid, etc... que le gustaría saber qué va ocurriendo con la A-23. Ahora mismo están en obras todos los tramos salvo el de Sabiñánigo Est



www.nevasport.com


----------



## Boltzman

From 1st September on, 550km of motorways end their concesion to Abertis so they won't be tolled anymore, mostly in Catalonia.

National owned: 
-AP-2, Alfajarín (Zaragoza) - El Vendrell (Tarragona), (215 km, 25,95 euro),
-AP-7: Tarragona-La Junquera (245 km, 20,05 euro) and Montmeló-El Papiol (31 km, 2,60 euro)

Regional owned:
-C-32 Barcelona-Lloret (75 km, 4,95 euro)
-C-33 Barcelona-Montmeló, (18 km, 1,7 euro).









Las autopistas gratis desde septiembre: 220.000 vehículos al día y 752 millones de euros de ahorro


Desde este miércoles 1 de septiembre, 550 kilómetros de autopistas que hoy son de pago se convertirán en gratuitos una vez ha finalizado el periodo de concesión que no será...




www.elmundo.es


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This'll save a lot of money, until they come up with a new nationwide tolling system?

I'm wondering about the other bankrupt toll roads that were taken over by the government in 2018 (mostly around Madrid). What's the progress to turn them into privatized concessions? Is there any operator interested in it? This seems like an unprofitable business, so maybe no companies are interested in taking up that toll road.


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## verreme

They will probably come up with a nationwide road tolling scheme in less than 5 years that is going to cost the average driver more than the old tolls so I am for sure gonna drive the f*ck out of these roads before they are tolled again.


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## arctic_carlos

Boltzman said:


> From 1st September on, 550km of motorways end their concesion to Abertis so they won't be tolled anymore, mostly in Catalonia.
> 
> National owned:
> -AP-2, Alfajarín (Zaragoza) - El Vendrell (Tarragona), (215 km, 25,95 euro),
> -AP-7: Tarragona-La Junquera (245 km, 20,05 euro) and Montmeló-El Papiol (31 km, 2,60 euro)
> 
> Regional owned:
> -C-32 Barcelona-Lloret (75 km, 4,95 euro)
> -C-33 Barcelona-Montmeló, (18 km, 1,7 euro).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Las autopistas gratis desde septiembre: 220.000 vehículos al día y 752 millones de euros de ahorro
> 
> 
> Desde este miércoles 1 de septiembre, 550 kilómetros de autopistas que hoy son de pago se convertirán en gratuitos una vez ha finalizado el periodo de concesión que no será...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.elmundo.es


The new A-2 / AP-7 connection (a new 2.4 km motorway section, including an impressive bridge and a partial interchange with C-1413a) in Castellbisbal (near Barcelona) also opens to traffic on September 1st. Construction took around 14 years, with several interruptions, and was supposed to be an alternative to connect both motorways avoiding the Martorell toll plaza. Although works on the new link actually finished 2 months ago, its opening to traffic has been postponed so the government does not have to pay any compensation to Abertis for the loss of traffic on its concession before it expires, something that of course has sparked controversy among locals.









El eterno enlace entre la A-2 y la AP-7 se abre el 1 de septiembre


Tras catorce años de obras, dos grandes parones en los trabajos y un aumento del presupuesto de 46,4 millones de euros a 74,6, el enlace entre la A-2 y la AP-7, entre




www.lavanguardia.com


----------



## sponge_bob

arctic_carlos said:


> *Tenerife island ring road*
> 
> Once this section opens, the only missing one to complete the island ring will be the 11 km section between Los Realejos and Icod de los Vinos.


On the TF5. Is that to be half profile like the TF5 west of there leading into the new tunnel section?









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## CNGL

I've spent the last few days travelling through Northern Spain. I've now clinched A-8 for good (I had done so back in 2010 but at the time over 100 km of it were still missing). I was worried to find the Lourenza-Abadin section closed due to fog, but it was sunny all they way through. I've also done A-64, AC-14, and AS-II; as well as parts of A-6 and AP-9 (Ferrol branch, not the tolled part xD).


----------



## Niemiec w Polsce

Great news. As from today on several concessions ended after 47 years and 55 years in Catalonia and Aragon. Following sections of national autopistas (AP) and regional autopistas (C) went to the ownership of the state and tolls were lifted effective from 1st of September.

The tolls for the AP-7 from Tarragona to Alicante were already lifted end of 2019.






National autopistas:







AP-2 - Pina de Ebro (Zaragoza) - AP-7 (between Tarragona and Barcelona)







AP-7 - Salou (Tarragona) - La Jonquera (Border FR/ES)

Regional autopistas:







C-32 - Vilassar de Mar (Barcelona) - Santa Susana (Lloret del Mar)







C-33 - Barcelona - Montmeló


Despite this great news the government is planning to introduce a toll on all state owned autopistas and autovias from 2024 on. EU claims that Spain needs to reduce its deficit of road maintance in order to qualify for the EU Corona funds. Planned costs will be likely between 3 and 5 cents/kilometer as it should cover only the maintance costs. It is planned to introduce a fully electronical system. Let's see how those plans develop. Last word isn't spoken yet.


----------



## g.spinoza

Niemiec w Polsce said:


> Great news. As from today on several concessions ended after 47 years and 55 years in Catalonia.
> National autopistas:
> View attachment 1992061
> AP-2 - Alfajarín (Zaragoza) - El Vendrell (Tarragona)
> View attachment 1992066
> AP-7 - Salou (Tarragona) - La Jonquera (Border FR/ES)
> 
> Regional autopistas:
> View attachment 1992078
> C-32 - Vilassar de Mar (Barcelona) - Santa Susana (Lloret del Mar)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> C-33 - Barcelona - Montmeló


Excellent.
I'm planning an "on the road" vacation in Spain for the last two weeks of September. AP-2 is unfortunately out of my route, but I will be driving the other three autopistas and save some good money 😉


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm currently in Spain, I drove all the ring roads of Madrid. M-30 is mightily impressive compared to Dutch or German motorways, with all those skyscrapers and towering apartment blocks lining the massive motorway, which often has 12 lanes or more on the east side of Madrid. 

M-50 has some very poor concrete pavement on the south side, apparently this is the oldest part of M-50, opening in 1994. It looked like the original pavement, it was super bumpy.

A-2 might be high up in the list of most scenic motorways in Europe (between Zaragoza and approximately 100 km before Madrid). Other motorways from Madrid briefly cross the mountains, but A-2 is a mountain motorway over a distance of 200 kilometers. And it has already been improved from its first generation autovía standard, though it is still pretty curvy.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-2 might be high up in the list of most scenic motorways in Europe (between Zaragoza and approximately 100 km before Madrid). Other motorways from Madrid briefly cross the mountains, but A-2 is a mountain motorway over a distance of 200 kilometers. And it has already been improved from its first generation autovía standard, though it is still pretty curvy.


I drove that, to and fro, but it didn't impress me much. Or, at least, I don't remember.
I was much more in awe driving A-92 in Andalucia.


----------



## Niemiec w Polsce

g.spinoza said:


> I drove that, to and fro, but it didn't impress me much. Or, at least, I don't remember.
> I was much more in awe driving A-92 in Andalucia.


I remember A-92 as well. Most scenic highway I have driven all across Europe.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-2 has a circa 200 kilometer stretch that snakes its way through mountain ranges and over mountain passes. It has a lot of wide views and several very curve alignments (even after upgrade from the original 1980s design). The landscape is party desert, party dry forest with mountains. I really enjoyed driving there.

I've been on A-92, that road is awesome as well, east of Granada. Spain has a lot of scenic motorways, but they tend to be lesser known than those in de Alps, as it is farther away from many Europeans, often beyond what most people are willing to drive.


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-2 has a circa 200 kilometer stretch that snakes its way through mountain ranges and over mountain passes. It has a lot of wide views and several very curve alignments (even after upgrade from the original 1980s design). The landscape is party desert, party dry forest with mountains. I really enjoyed driving there.
> 
> I've been on A-92, that road is awesome as well, east of Granada. Spain has a lot of scenic motorways, but they tend to be lesser known than those in de Alps, as it is farther away from many Europeans, often beyond what most people are willing to drive.


Yes, there's a lot of choice when it comes to scenic motorways. The A44 from Jaen to the coast is pretty much a mountain road the whole way, especially the section south of Granada. A7 along the coast between Malaga and Almeria too. The one I have wanted to drive since seeing it on here/streetview is the AP66 south from Gijon to Leon, with the tunnels and cable-stayed bridge in the mountains which look like something from an arcade game


----------



## sponge_bob

,


ChrisZwolle said:


> I've been on A-92, that road is awesome as well, east of Granada.


My abiding memories of the A92 are the cave houses alongside around Guadix IIRC and a french bloke who sped past me in a hurry and I found him again 20km along the road stopped dead as he hit a low flying vulture who fair mangled his car.


----------



## olarreaga

Stuu said:


> Yes, there's a lot of choice when it comes to scenic motorways. The A44 from Jaen to the coast is pretty much a mountain road the whole way, especially the section south of Granada. A7 along the coast between Malaga and Almeria too. The one I have wanted to drive since seeing it on here/streetview is the AP66 south from Gijon to Leon, with the tunnels and cable-stayed bridge in the mountains which look like something from an arcade game


You can try de A-67 as well. Also unlike the AP66 there is no toll.


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-2 might be high up in the list of most scenic motorways in Europe (between Zaragoza and approximately 100 km before Madrid). Other motorways from Madrid briefly cross the mountains, but A-2 is a mountain motorway over a distance of 200 kilometers. And it has already been improved from its first generation autovía standard, though it is still pretty curvy.


A-2 has to be one of my favourite motorways thanks to its many quirks. Starting by the fact it isn't quite accurately kmposted, it is actually shorter. This is especially noticeable around Aluenda (East of Calatayud), in which kmposts are only 600 meters apart. Between kmposts 244 and 255 there is a nominal distance of 11 km, however my measurements showed it is actually only 7.2 km long. In fact I measured the entire motorway from kmpost 193 to 312 (that's it, from Ariza all the way to Z-40) and it turned to be just 113.2 km long, somehow almost 6 km are missing.

It also comes very close to the Westernmost point in Aragon, though not exactly. That point is actually up the hill by the motorway, and I reached it earlier this year (on the first weekend we were allowed to go outside our regions again). I exited at exit 181, park by the limit sign, and then go up on foot to that point. That day, it was the first time ever I skipped exit 193 while driving, as I had taken it the five previous times...

Also, A-2 crosses the aptly called "empty Spain", since it doesn't hit any municipality with over 1000 people from Guadalajara all the way to Arcos de Jalon, a distance of over 100 km! (And thanks to missing Sigüenza about halfway) It doesn't hit any municipality with over 10000 people until Calatayud.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-2 has a circa 200 kilometer stretch that snakes its way through mountain ranges and over mountain passes. It has a lot of wide views and several very curve alignments (even after upgrade from the original 1980s design). The landscape is party desert, party dry forest with mountains. I really enjoyed driving there.
> 
> I've been on A-92, that road is awesome as well, east of Granada. Spain has a lot of scenic motorways, but they tend to be lesser known than those in de Alps, as it is farther away from many Europeans, often beyond what most people are willing to drive.



Maybe because I have driven on A-2 for long (just having driving licence, I drove every month there more or less) I wouldn't say so scenic. It is just matter of opinion.
Nevertheless, Guadalajara-Madrid is full of traffic, industry and... nothing and La Almunia-Zaragoza is flat, dry, desert... and nothing too.
I agree it is scenic how to approach Calatayud coming from several small but continuous passes on mountains (hills, got it) and the small city appears in a tiny valley.

Well, let's say among all E-X0 or E-X5 (main European axes) it is one out of main scenic motorways but as it has been said, A-67 is more scenic. I remember driving from Torrelavega to Reinosa. I think they were about 8 km or so on tunnels, some out of them quite cool.

Wanna see another scenic motorway (always 2x2), just drive on A-23

Look at








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





It is (not pointed) Monrepos summit northbound (may you get southbound, you will really "climb" Monrepos summit, but direction north, highest point is in the middle of both tunnels.

A bit of history in this picture

Just looking to the picture, left tunnel, open in late 2010ish, 1,45 km long to drive direction Jaca
middle tunnel, open (1x1) in early 1990ish, 1,45, nowadays 2 lanes direction Huesca
upper right, former tunnel (close to traffic) open in 1946!!!

Just back on picture, 2,97 km tunnel which makes second longest in Aragón. Second longest WAS international Bielsa tunnel but this is a bit longest. First longest it is.... by far Somport tunnel

Coming back, on A-23, (direction south) try to stop here (Google Maps) and spot all the Pyrenees to say good bye them (in just 500m they will be gone after summit). Play to search peaks. It is strongly easy Oroel peak (besides Jaca) but you can see Monte Perdido summit (3rd highest peak)
Hint, looking this picture move the camera until the truck, get truck back side, think on a vertical line to the mountains and... a bit to the right. I took this scene to focus on that peak

Have you driven there?


----------



## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> Excellent.
> I'm planning an "on the road" vacation in Spain for the last two weeks of September. AP-2 is unfortunately out of my route, but I will be driving the other three autopistas and save some good money 😉



Nowadays they are for free

AP-7 from France to Alicante
AP-2 full (entrance to Barcelona and Zaragoza-Mediterranean)
C-33 and C-32 nord (Barcelona surroundings)
AP-1 from Miranda to Burgos
AP-4 from Seville to Cadiz

The rest of tolled motorways remain their fares.

It will take about five years to have next free motorways (out of tolls) according to dates

PS. May you would get AP-2, do not hesitate to ask CNGL or myself about any issue on destination


----------



## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> Nowadays they are for free
> 
> AP-7 from France to Alicante
> AP-2 full (entrance to Barcelona and Zaragoza-Mediterranean)
> C-33 and C-32 nord (Barcelona surroundings)
> AP-1 from Miranda to Burgos
> AP-4 from Seville to Cadiz
> 
> The rest of tolled motorways remain their fares.
> 
> It will take about five years to have next free motorways (out of tolls) according to dates
> 
> PS. May you would get AP-2, do not hesitate to ask CNGL or myself about any issue on destination


Thanks, but my route will be Turin-Perpignan-Alicante-Marbella one way and Marbella-Valencia-Roses-Montpellier-Turin for the return, so AP-2 is not included.


----------



## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> Thanks, but my route will be Turin-Perpignan-Alicante-Marbella one way and Marbella-Valencia-Roses-Montpellier-Turin for the return, so AP-2 is not included.



Got it,

BTW,

I bet you will know, via Mediterranean, fastest way (between Valencia and Alicante) is not besides coast but inner motorway (A-7, A-35, A-33, A-31, a lot of numbers for a Valencia-Alicante but... faster!!). The point is A-31 doesn't reach Alicante but closer to Elche than to Alicante thus km saving.

Via Granada (A92) is faster than via Almeria (A7) but... according to google, via Manzanares (A43 and A4) is 20 km longest (over more than 1000km) but same time than via Granada.

I have lived in that area. Valencia-Manzanares-Cordoba is fine (you will cross Despeñaperros pass which is scenic) and there will not be traffic. 
I remember moving in Valencia through Madrid via A-3 and, just several kilometres before congestions on peak dates I had to get off that motorway and take direction Manzanares avoiding all traffic. In Manzanares you get A-4 direction south after all kind of congestions.


I would recommend you to get one motorway to go on and another to come back and share scenics.

In both cases, untolled until nearby of Malaga


----------



## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> Got it,
> 
> BTW,
> 
> I bet you will know, via Mediterranean, fastest way (between Valencia and Alicante) is not besides coast but inner motorway (A-7, A-35, A-33, A-31, a lot of numbers for a Valencia-Alicante but... faster!!). The point is A-31 doesn't reach Alicante but closer to Elche than to Alicante thus km saving.
> 
> Via Granada (A92) is faster than via Almeria (A7) but... according to google, via Manzanares (A43 and A4) is 20 km longest (over more than 1000km) but same time than via Granada.
> 
> I have lived in that area. Valencia-Manzanares-Cordoba is fine (you will cross Despeñaperros pass which is scenic) and there will not be traffic.
> I remember moving in Valencia through Madrid via A-3 and, just several kilometres before congestions on peak dates I had to get off that motorway and take direction Manzanares avoiding all traffic. In Manzanares you get A-4 direction south after all kind of congestions.
> 
> 
> I would recommend you to get one motorway to go on and another to come back and share scenics.
> 
> In both cases, untolled until nearby of Malaga


I know.
I've already driven through Granada and the A-4 through Manzanares several years ago so this time I decided to take the coastal route. A Jaen-Albacete-Valencia motorway would be tops, but I think on the way back I could take Granada-Guadix-Almeria then the unfinished A-33.
What I like about Spain is that you have generally several alternatives, and they are almost never congested.


----------



## alserrod

It's true, BTW, Jaen-Albacete is scenic too over all Andalusian olives. It is, by far, the fastest route, although there's a gap for a 1x1 only


----------



## SeñorGol

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm currently in Spain, I drove all the ring roads of Madrid. M-30 is mightily impressive compared to Dutch or German motorways, with all those skyscrapers and towering apartment blocks lining the massive motorway, which often has 12 lanes or more on the east side of Madrid.
> 
> M-50 has some very poor concrete pavement on the south side, apparently this is the oldest part of M-50, opening in 1994. It looked like the original pavement, it was super bumpy.
> 
> A-2 might be high up in the list of most scenic motorways in Europe (between Zaragoza and approximately 100 km before Madrid). Other motorways from Madrid briefly cross the mountains, but A-2 is a mountain motorway over a distance of 200 kilometers. And it has already been improved from its first generation autovía standard, though it is still pretty curvy.


One of my favourite views along the A-2 is this one near Contamina. Kind of resembles Southwestern US










Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.es


----------



## dirdam

alserrod said:


> It will take about five years to have next free motorways (out of tolls) according to dates


R-2 toll ends November 5th 2024.


----------



## alserrod

dirdam said:


> R-2 toll ends November 5th 2024.



I didn't know it. TBH, It is a long time I do not hear about R-x motorways


----------



## Vignole

According to this report https://apps.fomento.gob.es/CVP/handlers/pdfhandler.ashx?idpub=ICW039 (page 80), it will end on March 25th, 2039. The report was done before Madrid's Radiales bailout, so, something changed?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I drove A-4 today, from Madrid to Bailén, almost 300 kilometers. This is an outdated motorway which can use a tune-up. There is old asphalt and bumpy concrete at a lot of locations. The geometry also leaves to be desired at many locations. 

The Despeñaperros is much more modern despite the challenging terrain. I also drove the old N-IV through there. It's hard to believe that it once carried motorway traffic.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove A-4 today, from Madrid to Bailén, almost 300 kilometers. This is an outdated motorway which can use a tune-up. There is old asphalt and bumpy concrete at a lot of locations. The geometry also leaves to be desired at many locations.
> 
> The Despeñaperros is much more modern despite the challenging terrain. I also drove the old N-IV through there. It's hard to believe that it once carried motorway traffic.



For some years (a long time ago) I was living near Despeñaperros, north side.
My boss was quite older than me and he was born in Linares. He chatted me about former pass and remembered some times with a 2 hours queue because congestion in that pass. Therefore, old 2x2 was fantastic for him.

I always drove quite slowly there and IMO, this was the worst curve









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## alserrod

News from Teruel

N-330 built-up is going on. 
Construction has been awarded (I do not know company and times yet) and let's hope it will not get delays

It concerns to one km of N-234 (nowadays bypass) and 5 km of N-330 on this area








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





I will be shaped-up to a 3,5x2 +1,5+2 shoulders


----------



## SeñorGol

A video about the dualling of the former N-IV in Despeñaperros





And some 'onboard' videos showing some of the former carriageways


----------



## arctic_carlos

In Almería province (southern Spain), construction started in late July on the easternmost section of _Autovía del Almanzora_ (A-334), between La Concepción and A-7 (3.6 km). The new stretch will be ready in 22 months (spring 2023) and cost € 24M.









La Junta inicia las obras del tramo que conecta la Autovía del Almanzora con la del Mediterráneo en Almería


Las consejeras de Agricultura, Ganadería, Pesca y Desarrollo Sostenible, Carmen Crespo, y de Fomento,...




www.europapress.es





On the other hand, according to the same source, its neighboring section (El Cucador - La Concepción) will open to traffic throughout this month of September, 6 months ahead of schedule. However, I guess the new section will be of little use until the connection with A-7 is ready in 2023.

Once both sections are ready, there will be a continuous 28 km motorway between Fines and A-7. The are no news of the upgrade to motorway standards of the remaining 56 km of A-334 between Fines and Baza (A-92N).


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove A-4 today, from Madrid to Bailén, almost 300 kilometers. This is an outdated motorway which can use a tune-up. There is old asphalt and bumpy concrete at a lot of locations. The geometry also leaves to be desired at many locations.
> 
> The Despeñaperros is much more modern despite the challenging terrain. I also drove the old N-IV through there. It's hard to believe that it once carried motorway traffic.


For a lot of the route south from Madrid, its obvious that the southbound carriageway is older as it's a lot worse than going north


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's interesting to see and drive all these road projects we discussed and tracked over the years. I'm pretty far from home (2400 km one way). I drove the new A-44 around Granada and the new A-1051 around Roquetas de Mar. 

I went into the mountains north of Almería today. This region is so scenic, but there are hardly any tourists, or motorists for that matter. It's interesting to see that the 'white' mountain roads in the Michelin atlas are far better designed than those in France. The Spanish really know how to build roads properly.


----------



## arctic_carlos

The eastern section of the _Autovía del Reguerón_, near Murcia, will open to traffic next Thursday, September 9. The new stretch is 7 km long and connects Murcia to _Autovía del Bancal_ (RM-1) near Zeneta. I guess we'll have to wait until its opening day to know its official numbering. In the future, it will be extended to El Palmar, (while RM-1 will be extended to A-7), thus completing a full motorway ring around the city of Murcia.









El Ministerio abre al tráfico el jueves día 9 la autovía del Reguerón


Los vehículos podrán circular desde la avenida de Levante (Beniaján) hasta Zeneta, donde conectará con la 'autovía del bancal' hacia el Mar Menor




www.laverdad.es


----------



## SeñorGol

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's interesting to see and drive all these road projects we discussed and tracked over the years. I'm pretty far from home (2400 km one way). I drove the new A-44 around Granada and the new A-1051 around Roquetas de Mar.
> 
> I went into the mountains north of Almería today. This region is so scenic, but there are hardly any tourists, or motorists for that matter. It's interesting to see that the 'white' mountain roads in the Michelin atlas are far better designed than those in France. The Spanish really know how to build roads properly.


You should drive the AL-4404 along the Calar Alto observatory if you have the chance 








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.es


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've been there today! I also went up the 'Tetica de Bacares'. What a view!


----------



## Boltzman

ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove A-4 today, from Madrid to Bailén, almost 300 kilometers. This is an outdated motorway which can use a tune-up. There is old asphalt and bumpy concrete at a lot of locations. The geometry also leaves to be desired at many locations.
> 
> The Despeñaperros is much more modern despite the challenging terrain. I also drove the old N-IV through there. It's hard to believe that it once carried motorway traffic.


The stretch through Ciudad Real province is fully refurbished though, the only stretch along Madrid province to get some kind of refurbishmment works in the whole A4; so the infamous Puerto-Lápice pass is now not so bad designed as it was, and tiny Santa Cruz de Mudela (less than 5000 inhabitants) got a new bypass, the former A4 with their 2+2 lanes, so crazy.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I drove A-33 today, all of it that is now open. The western section has very light traffic, most of the time there wasn't more than 1 other car one kilometer behind or ahead of me. The scenery is quite okay if you like desolate mountain ranges. 

The Caudete bypass looks nearly finished. The missing link from Yecla to Caudete has most earthworks complete (from what I could see) but there were still some bridges in early stages of construction. The current starting point at Caudete-Est is almost immediately at the A-31 interchange.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove A-33 today, all of it that is now open. The western section has very light traffic, most of the time there wasn't more than 1 other car one kilometer behind or ahead of me. The scenery is quite okay if you like desolate mountain ranges.
> 
> The Caudete bypass looks nearly finished. The missing link from Yecla to Caudete has most earthworks complete (from what I could see) but there were still some bridges in early stages of construction. The current starting point at Caudete-Est is almost immediately at the A-31 interchange.


I guess traffic will switch to A-33 from A-7 once the whole corridor is complete. A-7 between Alicante and Murcia can be very congested, plus there's a long winding section with 80 km/h speed limits between Xàtiva and Alcoi. A-35, A-33 and A-30 are mostly trouble-free.


----------



## dirdam

Vignole said:


> According to this report https://apps.fomento.gob.es/CVP/handlers/pdfhandler.ashx?idpub=ICW039 (page 80), it will end on March 25th, 2039. The report was done before Madrid's Radiales bailout, so, something changed?


I took data from here: Iridium Concesiones de Infraestructuras


----------



## dirdam

Boltzman said:


> The stretch through Ciudad Real province is fully refurbished though, the only stretch along Madrid province to get some kind of refurbishmment works in the whole A4; so the infamous Puerto-Lápice pass is now not so bad designed as it was, and tiny Santa Cruz de Mudela (less than 5000 inhabitants) got a new bypass, the former A4 with their 2+2 lanes, so crazy.


A-4 is not really refurbished in any stretch. 5-10 years ago, some improvements were made near Aranjuez (Google Maps) and Santa Cruz de Mudela (Google Maps). A-4 is one of the worst autovías in Spain, and Puerto Lápice pass is as infamous as ever.


----------



## Vignole

dirdam said:


> I took data from here: Iridium Concesiones de Infraestructuras


Interesting. Henarsa was the concession company that operated before the bailout, nowadays R-2 is operated by state-owned company SEITT. So your data and my data are both not updated. 😕


----------



## arctic_carlos

verreme said:


> I guess traffic will switch to A-33 from A-7 once the whole corridor is complete. A-7 between Alicante and Murcia can be very congested, plus there's a long winding section with 80 km/h speed limits between Xàtiva and Alcoi. A-35, A-33 and A-30 are mostly trouble-free.


The opening of the _Arco Noroeste de Murcia_ motorway will also help. It’s a new connection between A-7 and A-30 west of Murcia, which will enable Almería - Valencia traffic to completely avoid the usually congested A-7/A-30 shared section of Murcia bypass.


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## ChrisZwolle

I drove AP-7 from Alicante to Tarragona. Traffic was significantly heavier than on my previous trips when it was still a toll road. This free AP-7 saves me 70 euros. 

I also drove A-31 into Alicante. I found it surprising that it has a 120 km/h speed limit considering the last 40 or so kilometers are pretty curvy, it felt fast going 115 km/h. Traffic was very light though, Alicante has much less traffic on a Sunday than Murcia.


----------



## dirdam

Vignole said:


> Interesting. Henarsa was the concession company that operated before the bailout, nowadays R-2 is operated by state-owned company SEITT. So your data and my data are both not updated. 😕


Your data were right. End year is 2039 (21 years from 2018, the date of this BOE):

BOE.es - BOE-A-2018-17836 Resolución de 21 de diciembre de 2018 de la Secretaría General de Infraestructuras, por la que se publica el Acuerdo del Consejo de Ministros de 14 de diciembre de 2018, por el que se aprueban las tarifas aplicables en determinadas autopistas de la Red de Carreteras del Estado.


----------



## Vignole

ChrisZwolle said:


> I also drove A-31 into Alicante. I found it surprising that it has a 120 km/h speed limit considering the last 40 or so kilometers are pretty curvy, it felt fast going 115 km/h. Traffic was very light though, Alicante has much less traffic on a Sunday than Murcia.


I agree, I had the same feeling about 10 years ago. I also have a similar feeling on C-16 between Terrassa and Manresa, although is much better designed and safer.


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## SeñorGol

This is something I can't understand, that the almost-perfect AP-68 in La Rioja has the same speed limit as some old autovías such as e.g. the A-1 north of El Molar, which has direct accesses like this: Google Maps


----------



## montealberi

SeñorGol said:


> A video about the dualling of the former N-IV in Despeñaperros
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And some 'onboard' videos showing some of the former carriageways


----------



## arctic_carlos

It’s confirmed, the new _Autovía del Reguerón_ (6.8 km) has opened to traffic today in Murcia, and it’s officially part of MU-30:




__





Mitma pone en servicio el tramo este de la Autovía del Reguerón en la Circunvalación de Murcia MU-30 | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.gob.es


----------



## sponge_bob

arctic_carlos said:


> It’s confirmed, the new _Autovía del Reguerón_ (6.8 km) has opened to traffic today in Murcia, and it’s officially part of MU-30:


Why is it MU-30 rather than a continuation of RM-1 ?? EDIT, found out since. 









MU-30 - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre







es.wikipedia.org


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The A-73 Pedrosa de Valdelucio - Báscones de Valdivia section will likely open in a few weeks.


















A-73: Doce kilómetros de autovía que acercan más Santander a Burgos


El tramo Pedrosa de Valdelucio-Báscones de Valdivia, en el límite con Palencia, aún no tiene fecha de inauguración oficial pero será cuestión de pocas semanas




www.diariodeburgos.es


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I took a big trip through Spain this month, I've traveled from the Bielsa Tunnel via the Monrepos Pass to Zaragoza & Madrid, drove all the ring roads of Madrid, visited Segovia, then traveled south to Almería (via Motril), then via A-92N & A-33 to Alicante, and then AP-7 north to France. 

Some things I've noticed;


traffic in cities is quite doable, maybe even easier than France. Most of the time there wasn't heavy traffic.
the 30 km/h urban speed limit is low, but it applies only to single lane streets. Most arterials have four or more lanes, thus the more reasonable 50 km/h applies.
50 km/h can even be fast if there isn't a good view on pedestrian traffic wanting to use the pedestrian crossings. You might need to brake hard.
settlement is quite a problem across Spain, especially around bridges.
bridge joints were quite often gone, sometimes wider than the lane. Apparently this doesn't warrant an emergency repair like in Germany?
some older motorways have poor pavement. I recall A-23 near Huesca and portions of A-4 on the Meseta with very deteriorated pavement
most motorways around Madrid have excellent pavement, except for a section of M-50 which has poor quality concrete west of A-4.
M-30 is awesome. Traffic was flowing really well, even light at times. Unthinkable in Paris.
Traffic on AP-7 has noticeably increased since the tolls were lifted.


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## alserrod

What's your opinion about N-260?

(Ainsa - Tunnels near Janovas ==> narrow to Fiscal ==> new tunnel through Sabiñanigo)

Have you ever gone on N-260 in the opposite direction? (providing you drive on full N-260 or N-260a I bet it will be, by strongly far, the national road over 200km more, more stunning and scenic... and it is longer than 500 km)

PS Ordesa national park away








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## ChrisZwolle

__





Plataforma de Contratación del Sector Público


Dirección General del Patrimonio del Estado - Junta Consultiva de Contratación Administrativa




contrataciondelestado.es













El Gobierno aparca la autovía A-43 y propone mejorar la N-430


Pretende llevar a cabo actuaciones de mejora de la plataforma, acondicionamiento de trazado y variantes que supriman las travesías de poblaciones.




www.canalextremadura.es





An update of the A-43 project between Santa Amalia and Ciudad Real (nearly 180 kilometers). It will now be developed as an upgraded N-430 (possibly a 2+1 road) and not as a greenfield autovía. 

This corridor has long been debated with an on/off status as a planned motorway. No segment has been built to date. However the traffic volumes just aren't there to justify a motorway. A large part of the route carries only 1,300 - 2,100 vehicles per day. Only the westernmost and easternmost segment carry a higher traffic volume. They say that only the A-5 to Santa Amalia segment is viable as a motorway. 

N-430 is a relatively good standard road in Extremadura. The eastern part in Castilla-La Mancha has a lower design standard, it also runs through more mountainous terrain. 

One of the key debates was whether to build it on its shortest route along the N-430 corridor, or pull it southward via Almadén, or maybe build a connector road to Almadén. Almadén is one of the most isolated towns in Spain, being outside of the major transportation corridors.


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## alserrod

I remember 20 years ago driving on A-43 just built.

A long time later, one mate drived from Lisbon to Valencia. Fastest way? via Madrid (via Toledo indeed). He preferred to have a detour and full motorway for a so long journey instead of travelling by road for so many kilometres.

It is the fact of some motorways in Spain. They cross lands absolutely isolated and they will not have traffic unless they are finished. If so... you can think, for instance, on A-66 (where population is more or less the same)


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## CNGL

The history of N-430 is a quite weird one. Per the Plan Peña, N-430 was supposed to run on (using current numbers) EX-206, Carretera Entrerríos, an unbuilt section, EX-103R and EX-103. But in the 50s a straighter road, resembling an American highway, was built and N-430 was realigned into it, and thus parts of the old alignment became C-413 and C-520 extensions (why they extended C-520 producing a crazy route instead of C-420 is beyond me, the nonsensical route is still seen today as EX-206). The new N-430, however, stopped abruptly near Puerto Peña, needing local roads to connect to the section towards Ciudad Real, the gap wasn't filled until as recently as 2005!


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## ChrisZwolle

Badajoz - Valencia is approximately 75 kilometers shorter via N-430 than via Toledo. However the travel time is nearly identical due to the long gap in the motorway network via Ciudad Real.

However I do not believe that this corridor has such a big potential to attract long-distance traffic. Even if all long-distance traffic would shift to A-43, it would likely boost the traffic volumes by 1,000 - 1,500 vehicles per day, maybe even less. There just isn't that much traffic traveling such distances. So even if traffic volumes would double, it would still be far too low to justify a motorway.

I believe the general planning horizon is 12,000 vehicles per day for an autovía. Many autovías were built in the previous decade with such an assumption in mind, but the traffic growth did not materialize as much, there is presently still quite a bit of autovía with traffic volumes not reaching 12,000. For example almost all of A-66 between Mérida and León is below that. Even A-5 has sections with only 10,000 vehicles per day. But in that case, the larger amount of truck traffic would justify its existence. 

The truck share on N-430 is 25-30%. Which is high, but the volume is only 1,500 - 2,000, which means the amount of trucks is only about 500. This would warrant a higher-standard road, but not necessarily a full motorway. Which, combined with ecological impact, is obviously the reason why A-43 has not come to fruition yet.


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## alserrod

That's true but for instance, Benavente-Salamanca gets 136 km on A-66 instead of 171 km via Tordesillas.
Traffic is not congested and trips such as France-Burgos-Valladolid-...-Merida-Seville or Madrid-Tordesillas- Leon-Gijon or La Coruña/Vigo doesn't travel between Salamanca and Benavente indeed.

And it was built. Does it worth?. It is matter of opinion. I just considered the same criteria. Obviously, Ciudad Real-Merida is longer than that A-66 stretch


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## ChrisZwolle

The construction of A-11 is progressing very slow and the deadlines most likely won't be met.


Olivares de Duero - Tudela de Duero: awarded December 2019, 15% progress
Quintanilla de Arriba - Olivares de Duero: awarded August 2020, 6% progress
El Burgo de Osma - San Esteban de Gormaz, 40% progress
Venga Nueve - Santiuste, 85% progress









La obra de los tramos entre Tudela y Quintanilla no avanzan


Los trabajos de Tudela a Olivares han avanzado un 15% en 20 meses y comienza a vislumbrarse la dificultad de que estén terminadas antes de que acabe 2022




www.eldiadevalladolid.com


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> The construction of A-11 is progressing very slow and the deadlines most likely won't be met.
> 
> 
> Olivares de Duero - Tudela de Duero: awarded December 2019, 15% progress
> Quintanilla de Arriba - Olivares de Duero: awarded August 2020, 6% progress
> El Burgo de Osma - San Esteban de Gormaz, 40% progress
> Venga Nueve - Santiuste, 85% progress
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La obra de los tramos entre Tudela y Quintanilla no avanzan
> 
> 
> Los trabajos de Tudela a Olivares han avanzado un 15% en 20 meses y comienza a vislumbrarse la dificultad de que estén terminadas antes de que acabe 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.eldiadevalladolid.com



Related to Venta Nueva, this is a late August picture from SoriaTV
















Chris... hint, "Nueva" and "Nuevo" mean "new". "Nueve" means.... "nine"!!!


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> N-430 is a relatively good standard road in Extremadura. The eastern part in Castilla-La Mancha has a lower design standard, it also runs through more mountainous terrain.


I've never driven that road but I have driven similar ones in Andalucia and Castilla-La Mancha. The sheer emptiness of Spain means that you can manage very good average speeds, probably not far off autovia speeds. There is no comparison between travelling along the average N road in Spain and somewhere similar elsewhere, even France is much busier on average. And they tend to be fairly well enginereed too, which is why routes like the A11 astonish me: I can think of winding narrow roads through small villages that carry 10 times the traffic.

So really, I don't think it's that big a deal that the A43 is cancelled, there must be far worse places in Spain ahead in the queue


----------



## g.spinoza

I'm currently in Alicante. Drove all ap-7 from la jonquera, including the part after Valencia.
Few considerations:


yes, traffic was higher than usual after the toll has been abolished. However, only the Barcelona-Tarragona stretch was really trafficked.
I remembered better service stations. We stopped at one near Benicarló and it was underwhelming. The outside was dirty and neglected, and the food was terrible.
the section Gandia-Benidorm was really nice and scenic.
who is the madman who let Benidorm become this monstrosity?

Today I'm driving to Marbella, trying to drive all Ap-7 again. Still unsure if also the part near Cartagena, it seems a rather long detour


----------



## SeñorGol

Pedro Zaragoza Orts is the madman who made Benidorm as we know it today. Quite an interesting biography: Pedro Zaragoza - Wikipedia

About A-43, I remember there were plans for a motorway between Badajoz, Córdoba and Granada (N-432 or A-81), and also between Puertollano and Córdoba (A-41). I was wondering if they could build a T-shaped network of 2+1 expressways linking all those cities, including the "southern corridor" of the A-43. It would require upgrading the N-502

Badajoz-Zafra probably requires a full motorway, providing faster connection between central Portugal and Seville. Same with the Córdoba-Granada route. There are some medium-sized towns in the middle (Alcalá la Real, Alcaudete, Baena, Castro del Río and Espejo)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> I remembered better service stations. We stopped at one near Benicarló and it was underwhelming. The outside was dirty and neglected, and the food was terrible.


I've noticed this as well. The Spanish toll road service areas are no match for the French ones. Despite the fact that they should be pulling in more revenue due to a substantially higher amount of travelers using AP-7.


----------



## SeñorGol

French service areas are arguably the best in Europe. In Spain, I always try to avoid them. Instead, I usually plan my trips so that I stop at shopping centres for lunch and fuel. The restrooms are also cleaner. But I understand such planning isn't doable for most people, especially foreign tourists.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've noticed this as well. The Spanish toll road service areas are no match for the French ones. Despite the fact that they should be pulling in more revenue due to a substantially higher amount of travelers using AP-7.





SeñorGol said:


> French service areas are arguably the best in Europe. In Spain, I always try to avoid them. Instead, I usually plan my trips so that I stop at shopping centres for lunch and fuel. The restrooms are also cleaner. But I understand such planning isn't doable for most people, especially foreign tourists.



I always always try to avoid motorway roadside areas. Food is not good and it is quite expensive at all.

In one journey last August I remember it was dinner time, my wife was driving and I surfed on google... and I found a small Burger in a town besides a motorway exit. It was really fantastic to get off, drive for 1 km or so, park in front of the small restaurant and burger and fries for everyone.

But, at last, main roadside areas focused on truck drivers are, by far, the best ones.


----------



## Stuu

The Abades service areas are good, but French ones are generally better. Is there a nicer service area anywhere than the Baie de la Somme on tha A16?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Stuu said:


> Is there a nicer service area anywhere than the Baie de la Somme on tha A16?


I stopped there on my way to Spain last month. It's nicely landscaped but I expected somewhat of a spectacular view. If you're traveling south from Calais, I'd recommend the _Aire des Falaises de Widehem Ouest. _It has a great view of the seaside town and the Channel.








Aire des Falaises de Widehem Ouest · Autoroute A16 Km 228 Sens Boulogne > Paris, 62630 Widehem, France


★★★★☆ · Rest stop




www.google.com


----------



## CNGL

As already said, in Spain it's better to get off the motorway and look in the towns along the route. We did that in my recent Northern Spain road trip, the first day we got off A-8 near Laredo while my brother searched for a roadside restaurant along the way in Google Maps. We eventually stopped in Beranga.

One hint, especially on weekdays: Look for trucks. They are a good indicator of the quality of a roadside restaurant.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A volcanic eruption is ongoing on the western slope of the Cumbre Vieja volcano on La Palma (Canary Islands). The eruption is close to populated areas. Road LP-212 appears to be the nearest road, LP-2 may be in the danger zone of a lava flow as well.

Cumbre Vieja is a large ridge with many volcanic craters. This one was not a classic violent stratovolcano type eruption. It's also not on the Caldera de Taburiente, the defining feature of La Palma. This is the first eruption of the Cumbre Vieja in 50 years. The last two eruptions since 1712 were on the southern tip of La Palma: Global Volcanism Program | La Palma


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439607825140002821

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439594117521186816


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> I stopped there on my way to Spain last month. It's nicely landscaped but I expected somewhat of a spectacular view. If you're traveling south from Calais, I'd recommend the _Aire des Falaises de Widehem Ouest. _It has a great view of the seaside town and the Channel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aire des Falaises de Widehem Ouest · Autoroute A16 Km 228 Sens Boulogne > Paris, 62630 Widehem, France
> 
> 
> ★★★★☆ · Rest stop
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


Yes, been there too, that is a nice place to stop.

Re Cumbre Vieja, I watched a documentary years ago about how if it erupts the whole mountain could collapse and cause a huge tsunami in the Atlantic


----------



## g.spinoza

Second spanish leg of my trip (third overall): Alicante-Marbella, all through A-7 and AP-7.
Few considerations:


the Cartagena stretch of AP-7 is a nice scenic drive, but there is something I didn't understand. Near Torrevieja there are two toll barriers, very close one another (2 km or so) where my European Telepass system didn't work. It bipped a few times but the bar didn't raise. The first time I think it was raised by the operator, in the second barrier I stopped and paid 4.05 by credit card. In the first barrier the price was 4.05 as well, but I really don't know what happened, if I will receive a ticket in my mail or not.
the Almeria section is not that nice, the autovia is substandard and you pass through a lot of ugly places (El Ejido, for example). Greenhouses as far as the eye can see. I will get back to this at the end.
Motril-Malaga is beautiful but demanding, a lot of ascents, descents, tight curves, tunnels and high viaducts. The view of the sea from ~300 m of altitude is gorgeous.
I don't understand the Malaga bypass of A-7. Four lanes per direction, completely empty, limited to 100 km/h.
A-7 Fuengirola-Marbella is outrageous.

I would like to share, especially with Spanish forumers, an impression I had during this trip. I don't want to offend anyone, so if you feel insulted please accept my apologies: it wasn't my intention.

The impression I had is that Spain lags a little behind, with respect to the rest of Europe, in terms of environmental planning and sensitivity to these matters. I think all these examples are faces of the same coin:

Benidorm, with its absurd skyscrapers which ruined a wonderful location;
the greenhouse district in Almeria, which resembles a temporary camp of Alaskan gold diggers, with every square meter of territory, even on top on mountains, covered by white plastic fabric;
the uncomprehensible fascination with 4 or 6 lanes urban motorways even in the most beautiful parts of towns (which I found a couple of years ago in A Coruña, Santander and San Sebastian, and I found today in Alicante and Marbella). I mean, I was strolling through the seaside paseo in Alicante, after a nice dinner in the city, and found myself overwhelmed by the noise: to cross the street you only had 17 seconds of green light, while the red lasted for 2 minutes.

Many other towns across Europe have such large urban motorways in tourist spots, but it seems they're moving to a different priority systems (Paris closing the boulevards along the Seine, Milan with the Area C, other cities closing some lanes and creating more bike and pedestrian paths). Maybe it's because the Spanish democracy is so young, as the economic prosperity? It seems like Spain is still in the "construction madness", like Italy was in the 70s and 80s.

PS: At lunchtime I was near El Ejido, I exited the Autovia to find a place to eat but it was so ugly I reentered the autovia immediately. Drove a few km, then I was so hungry I decided to stop anyway, ugly or not.
So by absolute chance, I found this tiny little gem:










La Ràbita de Albuñol.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I drove through the El Ejido area as well, that's really something else. It might be one of the ugliest places in Europe. It's not tiny either, the core area is already some 35 kilometers but the plastic greenhouses (Mar del Plástico) stretch all the way from way east of Almería to near Motril, a distance of 140-150 kilometers. 

I once spent a few days in the Las Negras area (Cabo de Gata), which is really scenic but the hinterland is full of plastic greenhouses. I noticed that all the houses had bars before the windows and there were a lot of Africans walking around, I assume they are (illegal?) immigrants looking for work there.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove through the El Ejido area as well, that's really something else. It might be one of the ugliest places in Europe.


I was about writing the very same! "one of the ugliest places in Europe". Well, it was also cold and heavily raining when I was there back in May 2017.


----------



## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> Second spanish leg of my trip (third overall): Alicante-Marbella, all through A-7 and AP-7.
> Few considerations:
> 
> 
> the Cartagena stretch of AP-7 is a nice scenic drive, but there is something I didn't understand. Near Torrevieja there are two toll barriers, very close one another (2 km or so) where my European Telepass system didn't work. It bipped a few times but the bar didn't raise. The first time I think it was raised by the operator, in the second barrier I stopped and paid 4.05 by credit card. In the first barrier the price was 4.05 as well, but I really don't know what happened, if I will receive a ticket in my mail or not.
> the Almeria section is not that nice, the autovia is substandard and you pass through a lot of ugly places (El Ejido, for example). Greenhouses as far as the eye can see. I will get back to this at the end.
> Motril-Malaga is beautiful but demanding, a lot of ascents, descents, tight curves, tunnels and high viaducts. The view of the sea from ~300 m of altitude is gorgeous.
> I don't understand the Malaga bypass of A-7. Four lanes per direction, completely empty, limited to 100 km/h.
> A-7 Fuengirola-Marbella is outrageous.
> 
> I would like to share, especially with Spanish forumers, an impression I had during this trip. I don't want to offend anyone, so if you feel insulted please accept my apologies: it wasn't my intention.
> 
> The impression I had is that Spain lags a little behind, with respect to the rest of Europe, in terms of environmental planning and sensitivity to these matters. I think all these examples are faces of the same coin:
> 
> Benidorm, with its absurd skyscrapers which ruined a wonderful location;
> the greenhouse district in Almeria, which resembles a temporary camp of Alaskan gold diggers, with every square meter of territory, even on top on mountains, covered by white plastic fabric;
> the uncomprehensible fascination with 4 or 6 lanes urban motorways even in the most beautiful parts of towns (which I found a couple of years ago in A Coruña, Santander and San Sebastian, and I found today in Alicante and Marbella). I mean, I was strolling through the seaside paseo in Alicante, after a nice dinner in the city, and found myself overwhelmed by the noise: to cross the street you only had 17 seconds of green light, while the red lasted for 2 minutes.
> 
> Many other towns across Europe have such large urban motorways in tourist spots, but it seems they're moving to a different priority systems (Paris closing the boulevards along the Seine, Milan with the Area C, other cities closing some lanes and creating more bike and pedestrian paths). Maybe it's because the Spanish democracy is so young, as the economic prosperity? It seems like Spain is still in the "construction madness", like Italy was in the 70s and 80s.
> 
> PS: At lunchtime I was near El Ejido, I exited the Autovia to find a place to eat but it was so ugly I reentered the autovia immediately. Drove a few km, then I was so hungry I decided to stop anyway, ugly or not.
> So by absolute chance, I found this tiny little gem:
> 
> View attachment 2079562
> 
> 
> La Ràbita de Albuñol.



It is sad but the sentence "the most interest in money, the weakest interest in environment" will go on here for sure.
This is, in areas where urbanity has developped business (mainly in the coast) you will see ugly zones and non-sense works.
In isolated and inhabitated areas you will see problems to build some kilometres of motorway because environment issues


----------



## alserrod

CNGL said:


> As already said, in Spain it's better to get off the motorway and look in the towns along the route. We did that in my recent Northern Spain road trip, the first day we got off A-8 near Laredo while my brother searched for a roadside restaurant along the way in Google Maps. We eventually stopped in Beranga.
> 
> One hint, especially on weekdays: Look for trucks. They are a good indicator of the quality of a roadside restaurant.


I strongly agree. On weekdays, the greatest number of trucks, the best quality in an affordable price!!

If you travel on A-2 / E-90 I bet this is the greatest roadside area








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com




It is located in Almadrones cross on A-2. Called "Area 103" but nowadays located on km. 101,5 (instead of km. 103). I would bet they have the higher number of stops everyday.
After the motorway was build, the roadside area was doubled (former one is located direction Madrid, new one, in early 90s is direction Zaragoza).

I heard a podcast about that corner. They work as two different roadside areas due to they have different customers, or at least, different services. This is, as far as they are 101 km away Madrid, that one towards Zaragoza will be busy on Friday evening with some late snacks, whilst direction Madrid will be busy on Sunday.
And a hint... both restaurant and cafeteria cheff in each area are siblings!!!!




Stuu said:


> Yes, been there too, that is a nice place to stop.
> 
> Re Cumbre Vieja, I watched a documentary years ago about how if it erupts the whole mountain could collapse and cause a huge tsunami in the Atlantic


Last time a volcano erupted in Spain was in 1824








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





I bet it is not needed to explain where it was volcanos location!!


Regarding to La Palma volcano it has been requested to population not to move by road to make easier for emergency cars and trucks to drive on, but no other measures (still)




Bonus, may you wanna go to Lanzarote, you could be in a restaurant without any kind of carbon emissions for cooking

In this "hole", it is known temperature 7m deep is over 700ºC, therefore, they cook just with Earth heat.

It is located in the middle of national park. You must pay to get inside (8 euros for the park and it includes a tour by bus, cheaper if you buy a bonus for several other resorts in the island) plus the meal you would have (it is affordable, strongly affordable regarding its location, just in the middle of volcanoes).

May you wanna just drive, get this road. It crosses national park but out of restricted area. Absolutely all mountains and hills you will see right, left and ahead are all of them volcanoes









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## arctic_carlos

MichiH said:


> I was about writing the very same! "one of the ugliest places in Europe". Well, it was also cold and heavily raining when I was there back in May 2017.


Well, maybe you all find that ugliness useful when you go to a northern European supermarket in winter and can buy tomatoes or cucumbers…


----------



## g.spinoza

arctic_carlos said:


> Well, maybe you all find that ugliness useful when you go to a northern European supermarket in winter and can buy tomatoes or cucumbers…


So you think it's smart to have intensive, water-guzzling crops in the dryest place in Europe?

Maybe we should restart eating seasonal fruits and vegetables...


----------



## Stuu

arctic_carlos said:


> Well, maybe you all find that ugliness useful when you go to a northern European supermarket in winter and can buy tomatoes or cucumbers…


You are right that it is hypocritical for people to complain about its ugliness whilst buying tomatoes etc. However, I do agree about the whole gold rush vibe. Why aren't the greenhouses permanent and made of glass? The amount of plastic waste from torn down greenhouses is incredible, and the way they are creeping further inland and along the coast just adds to the impression that it is all about making money while they can.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A lava flow has crossed road LP-2 on La Palma, which is one of the main roads on the island.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439726374886027265


----------



## g.spinoza

Stuu said:


> You are right that it is hypocritical for people to complain about its ugliness whilst buying tomatoes etc. However, I do agree about the whole gold rush vibe. Why aren't the greenhouses permanent and made of glass? The amount of plastic waste from torn down greenhouses is incredible, and the way they are creeping further inland and along the coast just adds to the impression that it is all about making money while they can.


I don't think it is hypocritical. There are several ways to do things, and while I appreciate fruit and vegetables, it doesn't mean you have to ruin a whole region to produce them.

The problem here is not the thing per se. It's the lack of planning. The land is completely covered in greenhouses plastic, even on top of mountains, on steep slopes. From the motorway you can clearly see the small roads to get there, steep as hell, with no safety protections. How do you think it is, driving a truck full of vegetables, down these 30% steep paths on a narrow ridge, with no guardrail? Do you think it is legal?
I think nobody cared in the last years, they let this business develop uncontrolled: in this sense, it is much like the gold rush, when there was basically no law.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> I think nobody cared in the last years, they let this business develop uncontrolled: in this sense, it is much like the gold rush, when there was basically no law.


I believe there was also an issue of a couple of unfinished hotels built without a proper permit in protected areas in Almería province. 

But maybe this type of desert terrain is perceived to be unvaluable by regional standards, so they might not see it as a destruction of rural / natural areas like outsiders who think desert areas are rare and worth protecting.


----------



## Attus

arctic_carlos said:


> Well, maybe you all find that ugliness useful when you go to a northern European supermarket in winter and can buy tomatoes or cucumbers…


I for sure don't buy them. Spanish strawberries early April? No way.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> But maybe this type of desert terrain is perceived to be unvaluable by regional standards, so they might not see it as a destruction of rural / natural areas like outsiders who think desert areas are rare and worth protecting.


Agreed. But people do live there. El Ejido alone has 80k inhabitants. You can argue that it would not be so populated if there weren't so many greenhouses, but that doesn't mean that people should live in such ruined land.


----------



## Vignole

ChrisZwolle said:


> A lava flow has crossed road LP-2 on La Palma, which is one of the main roads on the island.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439726374886027265


Here's a map of the spread of lava.

Source: ArcGIS Web Application


----------



## Eulanthe

g.spinoza said:


> I don't understand the Malaga bypass of A-7. Four lanes per direction, completely empty, limited to 100 km/h.
> A-7 Fuengirola-Marbella is outrageous.


1) The Malaga bypass is completely illogical. They still haven't opened the connection to the airport, and the 100km/h limit makes absolutely zero sense. The 100km/h limit also encourages drivers to use the M-20. The only situation where the bypass actually makes sense is if you're going towards the AP-46 or if it's rush hour. If it's a normal time, then it's 5km shorter and 2 minutes faster to use the M-20 rather than A-7. 

2) This is a more problematic issue. The AP-7 tolls are absolutely ridiculous, so everyone is crowding onto the A-7. The end result is an overcrowded road, not helped by the truly huge amount of development alongside the A-7 in the past 15-20 years. There's no solution here at all, beyond removing the tolls for the AP-7. Even then, because of the huge amount of uncontrolled development, the A-7 will still be choked throughout the day. It should be said though - the A-7 for most of the year is quite okay. 

One option to improve the A-7 would be to close off the small exits and only leave the larger junctions in place, which would at least reduce the huge amount of weaving on that section.


----------



## g.spinoza

Eulanthe said:


> 1)
> One option to improve the A-7 would be to close off the small exits and only leave the larger junctions in place, which would at least reduce the huge amount of weaving on that section.


I agree. 
There are entrances with a stop sign, onto a road with 80 km/h limit (but most drive well beyond that: I drove 82 and trucks were overtaking me all the time...)

Today I went hiking into the Sierra de las nieves, then to Ronda for an afternoon of sightseeing.

Ronda is absolutely amazing. It's a must see.
the A397 Marbella-Ronda is a solid road, very well designed, with a great scenery. It climbs to more that 1000 m in few km but it never feels narrow, steep or otherwise dangerous.
A367 Ronda-Ardales is a dream. Perfect tarmac, great alignment that allows very high speed, scenery seems it came out of a painting.
A357 Ardales-Coìn is nice, but not nearly as scenic as the previous two.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The problem with several sections of A-7 on the Costa del Sol is that A-7 is the only access in and out. Many hotels, resorts and even whole subdivisions can only be accessed through A-7. 

A-7 is basically an urban arterial there, made free-flow by only allowing the right in, right out movement. There are only a handful of full interchanges between Fuengirola and Marbella. 

Estepona - Torreguadiaro is still mostly a single level road, with roundabouts, despite being signed as A-7.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> The problem with several sections of A-7 on the Costa del Sol is that A-7 is the only access in and out. Many hotels, resorts and even whole subdivisions can only be accessed through A-7.
> 
> A-7 is basically an urban arterial there, made free-flow by only allowing the right in, right out movement. There are only a handful of full interchanges between Fuengirola and Marbella.
> 
> Estepona - Torreguadiaro is still mostly a single level road, with roundabouts, despite being signed as A-7.


One solution could be narrowing the road to 1+1, and using the freed space to build frontage roads.
It must be used only for local movements, not as a through road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Another anomaly in the Spanish system is A-79 near Alicante. It is part of the national road network (RCE), is listed in the official catalogue among the other A-roads of the national government, but it is not an autovía. It is a dual carriageway with roundabouts, most of it also has service roads. It opened in 2007. The speed limit is mostly 100 km/h, which is standard for non-autovía dual carriageways.


A-79 Alicante 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-79 Alicante 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-79 Alicante 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-79 Alicante 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-79 Alicante 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-79 Alicante 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-79 Alicante 12 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Another anomaly in the Spanish system is A-79 near Alicante. It is part of the national road network (RCE), is listed in the official catalogue among the other A-roads of the national government, but it is not an autovía. It is a dual carriageway with roundabouts, most of it also has service roads. It opened in 2007. The speed limit is mostly 100 km/h, which is standard for non-autovía dual carriageways.
> 
> 
> A-79 Alicante 01 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> A-79 Alicante 02 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> A-79 Alicante 04 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> A-79 Alicante 05 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> A-79 Alicante 07 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> A-79 Alicante 09 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> A-79 Alicante 12 by European Roads, on Flickr


There are a lot of A-numbered non-autovias, like the ones I mentioned around Ronda, but I agree the one near Alicante has one of the lowest numbers.


----------



## CNGL

That is because it is an urban route instead of an interurban motorway. And since Alicante's plates used to be A (which is also the code for interurban motorways) the urban routes there ended up being in the 70s (e.g. A-70, other cities would have had X-20 instead) However the 2015 road law included an AA-11 for the N-338 upgrade, but that is now finished and the road somehow remains N-338. At least no province used AP for their plates, that would have been funny.


----------



## Stuu

g.spinoza said:


> There are a lot of A-numbered non-autovias, like the ones I mentioned around Ronda, but I agree the one near Alicante has one of the lowest numbers.


That's A standing for Andalucia, Chris' example is A standing for autovia, probably.

It is strange that Andalucian roads don't use AN or something else to differentiate them from national autovia, which is why you end up with anomalies like this, where both the A44 and A316 are named as autovia but the A stands for different things:


----------



## alserrod

According to DGT, 51% less traffic con N-2 between Alfajarín and Fraga in this month

(one fatality this month, though)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> There are a lot of A-numbered non-autovias, like the ones I mentioned around Ronda, but I agree the one near Alicante has one of the lowest numbers.


Yes that's true, but they are part of a different system: the autonomous road network of Andalusia. Similar in Aragón. But A-79 is not an autonomous road, it is a national road and numbered within the autovía scheme (A-1 to A-91). But it is the only A-road in that system not to be a motorway. 

Nearby A-70, A-77 and A-77a are autovías. But A-79 is not and wasn't planned as one either. This makes it a strange anomaly, even by Spanish standards. 🙃


----------



## CNGL

Add Alava to the entities to use A. And Castile and Leon for regional motorways. Not bad. There are several duplicated numbers as a result: A-124, A-126, A-132, A-231, A-1101, A-1102, A-1103, A-1201, A-1202, A-1203, A-1204, A-1205, A-1207, A-2101, A-2201 (one is allocated but not yet signed), A-2202 (same, IDK if already signed), A-2302, A-2304, A-2521 and A-2522. All of them have one iteration in Aragon and another elsewhere.

In addition to A-79 there used to be a non-motorway A-78 between Elche and Crevillente, but that has been reverted to N-340 since.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Aragón and Andalucía A-roads are based on the former _carretera comarcal_ class of roads. This is in fact the case in many autonomous communities. Since this was a national scheme, the numbers in both of them should not conflict with each other. The Aragón numbers are mostly in the 100 and 200 range while the Andalusia numbers are mainly in the 300 and 400 range.

In both cases, the 'A' prefix means something different. In Andalusia it is the name of the autonomous community and they are all 3 or 4 digit numbers (except A-92, another anomaly but at least that one is an actual autovía).

A-79 is just strange. It's not part of N-332 or N-340, but because it is a national road, it cannot be a part of CV-86 either. But the A prefix for a non-motorway is weird.


----------



## alserrod

In the case of Aragon, formerly they existed shire roads C-XXX (Peña plan) and Z-XXX, TE-XXX and HU-XXX

regional roads A-XXX in green remain Peña plan and as far as possible they get C-XXX name shifted to A-XXX



This C-136 stone











is located not far from here









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





C-136 was Huesca-Portalet pass 
It was the only road crossing Monrepos pass (all national roads were via Ayerbe) full of tunnels. After Escarrilla it took current "old road" by Lanuza and Sallent through Formigal and the border.

Nowadays, valley road is named as A-136 but km. 0 is in Biescas. Huesca-Sabiñanigo is N-330 (A-23) and Sabiñanigo-Biescas is N-260


----------



## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> I agree.
> There are entrances with a stop sign, onto a road with 80 km/h limit (but most drive well beyond that: I drove 82 and trucks were overtaking me all the time...)


Quoting myself, today I drove again for a brief stretch of A-7 from Calahonda to Marbella proper (12 km).
I drove at 85 and 3 (three!) long trucks overtook me at more than 95.

At least they should banish long trucks on this route and force them through AP-7. It's madness here.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Truckers avoiding tolls are notorious in Spain. That's why we got the parallel autovías to tolled autopistas. I believe N-II had a truck share of up to 90% because they all avoided AP-2.

Maybe these truckers would have to pay the tolls themselves. Or their companies tell them to avoid toll roads. Even large discounts from the government doesn't seem to solve much. 

The problem is that buying out these toll road concessions is unbelievably expensive, in many cases it was cheaper to build a new toll-free autovía than to buy out the concession.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Truckers avoiding tolls are notorious in Spain. That's why we got the parallel autovías to tolled autopistas. I believe N-II had a truck share of up to 90% because they all avoided AP-2.
> 
> Maybe these truckers would have to pay the tolls themselves. Or their companies tell them to avoid toll roads. Even large discounts from the government doesn't seem to solve much.
> 
> The problem is that buying out these toll road concessions is unbelievably expensive, in many cases it was cheaper to build a new toll-free autovía than to buy out the concession.


Ok, but I don't think it is impossible to put a ban on the most critical stretches of A-7 and enforce it (cameras and the like).
But maybe the problem is Spanish OCR with foreign plates. I used a lot of underground parkings these days and all of them use plate recognition (I really don't know why, never seen them anywhere else, nor did I feel the necessity). Not a single time my car's plate was recognized correctly.


----------



## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> I used a lot of underground parkings these days and all of them use plate recognition (I really don't know why, never seen them anywhere else, nor did I feel the necessity).


Several Hungarian parking lots have it, but where I first saw such a thing was in your country, in Padova ;-)


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## ChrisZwolle

Speaking of La Palma. The island has to main cities: Santa Cruz in the east (where most facilities are) and Los Llanos in the west (which has the greatest population). Between them is a mountain range (Cumbre Nuevo). There were two roads between east and west: LP-301 through the mountains over a circa 1480 meter high pass, or LP-2 around the southern tip of the island.

In 1970, a tunnel was built for LP-3, creating a much quicker route between both sides. In 2003, another tunnel was built at a lower elevation. They are both one-way roads. Both also had two lanes, so they were basically two sets of two-lane one-way roads. However in 2019 the old tunnel was narrowed to single lane traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some highway history!

N-IV was the main road from Madrid to Andalusia. On the border to Andalusia there is a canyon called the 'Desfiladero de Despeñaperros'. However this is a somewhat unusual canyon from the N-IV perspective, the lowest point is not at either end, but halfway. 

N-IV was a two-lane road that snaked its way across the canyon. A project began in 1977 to build a new, higher standard roadway through the canyon, which was completed in 1984. It enabled N-IV to be a four lane road, as the old two-lane road was converted to a one-way road. 

This meant that traffic going uphill had a high-standard (motorway-like) roadway, but that downhill traffic had a very curvy roadway with two lanes. Which of course isn't very safe. All of this was replaced by the modern A-4 in 2011-2012. The old 1984 roadway was put out of service, the southern half was demolished, the northern half still exists.


The 1984 roadway in red (right = north). The lowest point is near J-6110. The Santa Elena side in Andalusia has the highest altitude. 









A comparison of satellite images from 2004 and 2020 of the southern portion near Santa Elena. The 1984 carriageway has been demolished since A-4 was completed. 









A viewpoint along old N-IV where you can view the 1984 roadway.

N-IV Despeñaperros 14 by European Roads, on Flickr

This panorama photo gives some more context of the terrain the road was built through. The modern A-4 is not in view (in tunnels).

N-IV Despeñaperros 16 by European Roads, on Flickr

The 1984 roadway had motorway characteristics.

N-IV Despeñaperros 17 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## g.spinoza

I've noticed that the A-7 West and East of Marbella is marked as N-340 in road markings. I've not noticed those in Marbella proper (Avenida Ochoa, Avenida Ramon y Cajal etc).
Is A-7 really concurrent with N-340 or is it some relic of the past?


----------



## verreme

A-7 used to be called N-340 before 2004. Back then most state autovías had their old N-numbers because they were literally built on top of the existing roads. A- numbers were reserved to autopistas like present-day AP-7 (back then just A-7).


----------



## g.spinoza

verreme said:


> A-7 used to be called N-340 before 2004. Back then most state autovías had their old N-numbers because they were literally built on top of the existing roads. A- numbers were reserved to autopistas like present-day AP-7 (back then just A-7).


Yes, I know that.
What I was asking is whether A-7 denomination replaced N-340 or they both still apply, given that N-340 markings are still visible (and some of them seem quite new).


----------



## verreme

g.spinoza said:


> Yes, I know that.
> What I was asking is whether A-7 denomination replaced N-340 or they both still apply, given that N-340 markings are still visible (and some of them seem quite new).


No it doesn't, except in the urban stretches (Torremolinos and Málaga for example) which have an A-7 bypass.


----------



## g.spinoza

Today I drove from Marbella to Valencia, with a non-direct by very scenic route.


Marbella-Malaga by A7. Malaga was congested for the morning rush hour so I couldn't take the A-357 from MA-20 to A-7. I had to go further north, then come back to take A-7 towards AP-46.
AP-46 is very scenic but also very steep. 5 € something is pricey but I guess such a mountain route does not come free.
A-92M and A-92 to Granada and Guadix. Great drive, great scenery, totally free. What's not to like?
A-92 Guadix towards Almerìa is fantastic. I was alone for the greater part of the drive and the scenery was magnificent, a high plateau surrounded by beautiful mountains and very few settlements.
N-340a is also a nice drive on a US West-like scenery. There is also an Old West theme park, and I think many spaghetti-western movies were shot here. The first half is basically straight and tailored for high-speed drive, while the eastern half is more curvy and passes nice towns like Sorbas.
A-7 through Lorca, Murcia, Alicante, not much to mention here. Lot of traffic around the cities.
A-7 Alicante-Valencia was really a surprise: a very steep ascent up to +800 m asl with nice scenery and towns like Alcoi. Fun to drive.
Valencia's V-31 and V-30 almost locked and I don't know why (at 15:00 on a Monday?)


----------



## CNGL

I've driven this weekend as well as I attended the Spanish Orienteering Championships in and around Albarracin, and I returned on a indirect route as well, without touching A-23 at all. In order to accomplish so I went via Alcañiz, the Alcubierre ridge has suprisingly too few crossings (there aren't many villages in that area either): Only the mostly East-West A-129 and the goat track that is A-230 (Too substandard for an "orange" road IMO). The next time I'm down in Teruel I'll do A-226 as the return route.


----------



## alserrod

A226 is great indeed.

I agree A-230 is substandard. And unfortunately there are not any plans to upgrade it.


----------



## OriK

g.spinoza said:


> Ok, but I don't think it is impossible to put a ban on the most critical stretches of A-7 and enforce it (cameras and the like).
> But maybe the problem is Spanish OCR with foreign plates. I used a lot of underground parkings these days and all of them use plate recognition (I really don't know why, never seen them anywhere else, nor did I feel the necessity). Not a single time my car's plate was recognized correctly.


Some cities ban cars in the city centre but allow you to go by car if you use a parking, the list of plates is sent to the authorities to remove the cars from the list of fined cars.

Other than that, it's mostly for pure convenience, if you have paid, the exit barrier will open without you showing or inserting the ticket.

Some others include it for security in the payments process. They might be integrated with the electronic toll-payment system so you don't have to pay in the machines if you have the device for paying the tolls without stopping. I once saw one in which you could pay with card at the exit barrier.

I guess some parkings get often asked about stolen cars and if they have a database they can collaborate more efficiently.

And those are all the use cases I can think of.


----------



## alserrod

I agree.
It is not just matter of payment (only) but also collaborating with stolen cars. I am not sure but petrol stations can (could) collaborate too.
AFAIK, police asks always about fuel in a stolen car just to calculate how long did they traveled (because thiefs try to avoid petrol stations).

In addition there are some cities who ban (and fine) not allowed cars just because plates (may you go to a hotel you must book your plate, they are allowed to book customer's plates).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

__





Mitma aprueba el expediente de información pública y definitivamente el proyecto de trazado del tramo Fuensaúco – Villar del Campo, de la Autovía de Navarra (A-15) | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





A definitive alignment project (proyecto de trazado) has been submitted for a 15 kilometer segment of A-15 east of Soria (Fuensaúco – Villar del Campo). The estimated cost is € 97.5 million = € 6.5 million per kilometer.

This'll be a greenfield motorway, to be constructed south of the existing N-122.

This motorway will be at a relatively high elevation by European standards, in the range of 1,000 - 1,150 meters above sea level. The highest point is similar in altitude to the Gotthard Tunnel or the Altos de Radona on another part of A-15. This means the motorway is more susceptible to winter weather than the area it leads to (Ebro Valley).


----------



## arctic_carlos

OriK said:


> Some cities ban cars in the city centre but allow you to go by car if you use a parking, the list of plates is sent to the authorities to remove the cars from the list of fined cars.
> 
> Other than that, it's mostly for pure convenience, if you have paid, the exit barrier will open without you showing or inserting the ticket.
> 
> Some others include it for security in the payments process. They might be integrated with the electronic toll-payment system so you don't have to pay in the machines if you have the device for paying the tolls without stopping. I once saw one in which you could pay with card at the exit barrier.
> 
> I guess some parkings get often asked about stolen cars and if they have a database they can collaborate more efficiently.
> 
> And those are all the use cases I can think of.


Besides, at least in Barcelona, in many public underground parkings access from the outside is restricted only to people who can prove that their car has been parked there; all the pedestrian entries are permanently closed with gates, and the gates will only open if the bar code of the ticket is scanned in a small safety device next to the gate or the numbers of the car plates are introduced in the screen of that device. It’s a measure designed to increase safety and reduce the risk of thefts in car parkings, although a thief can still of course wait outside the ramps, note the car plate of a car that is entering the parking and then introduce it on the safety device.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Satellite imagery from March 2021 shows the southern bypass of Albacete to be almost completed. This project seems to have stayed under the radar, I haven't read much news about it. 

It's unclear to me if this will be an extension of A-32 or a separate autovía. The western interchange with future A-32 is built in a way that A-32 > southern bypass is the through route. Traffic following the western bypass will have to turn off.

The imagery shows the bypass to be nearly completed, with the exception of the A-30 interchange.










A-30 interchange:


----------



## g.spinoza

Last Spanish leg of my trip: Valencia-Roses


Valencia's V-21 is a nice road, but again it completely ruins many km of seaside. Many beaches have the motorway just on their back: I guess they must be not very pleasant.
not much to say about AP-7 Puçol - el Vendrell: nice road, nothing particular to signal.
I was under the impression that C-32 El Vendrell-Barcelona was made toll-free as the norther part, but I was wrong: toll is still there. It's quite scenic, but I think it's completely useless: paying such hefty tolls, for a road limited at 80 km/h for a large part, makes no sense. As southern access to Barcelona, one should use the AP-7; locally, one uses C-31. Only people from Vilanova or Sitges wanting to go to Barcelona may use it, but ony when they're in a hurry.
Ronda littoral B-10. Although signed as a motorway, is far from being one. Closest thing that comes to mind is Munich's Ring, but much slower.
C-31/C-32 Barcelona - Tordera. Well it's nice, but after many km of driving, the curves and the steep ascents/descents don't make it a relaxing drive.
N-II/A-2 Tordera - Girona heavily influenced by A-2 works, even though I didn't see anyone working on it.
N-II Girona-Figueres. Nice and not empty at all, despite the AP-7 being free now. It ends abruptly near Olives with a roundabout, where you are redirected on the A-2... in the wrong direction! Almost arrived at the toll booth, they make you do a U-turn to remain on A-2 on the right direction. Never saw anything like that...
C-260 Figueres-Roses. A 100 km/h 4-lane expressway with lots of roundabouts. To my eyes, this is madness.


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## alserrod

C32 is not only tolled but one month ago was even more expensive than AP-7.

One friend told me it was a sort of a natural filter. No queue but expensive


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## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> Valencia's V-21 is a nice road, but again it completely ruins many km of seaside. Many beaches have the motorway just on their back: I guess they must be not very pleasant.


V-21 was built over an older two-lane highway. Maybe this was a realignment of N-340, and later widened to an autovía in the 1970s, back in those days all through traffic in the Valencia area used this road because the A-7 bypass of Valencia did not open until 1990-1992.


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## arctic_carlos

g.spinoza said:


> Last Spanish leg of my trip: Valencia-Roses
> 
> 
> I was under the impression that C-32 El Vendrell-Barcelona was made toll-free as the norther part, but I was wrong: toll is still there. It's quite scenic, but I think it's completely useless: paying such hefty tolls, for a road limited at 80 km/h for a large part, makes no sense. As southern access to Barcelona, one should use the AP-7; locally, one uses C-31. Only people from Vilanova or Sitges wanting to go to Barcelona may use it, but ony when they're in a hurry.


There are currently only two toll motorways left in Catalonia: C-32 south of Barcelona (the tolled section is El Vendrell-Castelldefels) and C-16 (Barcelona-Manresa + Cadí tunnel).

I used to live in Sitges, and although expensive, C-32 is the only real alternative to commute to Barcelona by car in a decent travel time (30-35 minutes). The coastal road (C-31) is very scenic but very winding and always congested with trucks, so in a normal day choosing it means at least 10-15 minutes more than the motorway (and it's only a 10 km section). Besides, there are discounts in the tolls for frequent travelers, so it's not that expensive for commuters. But if you really want to save money, you choose the train.

Besides, C-32 is limited to 90 km/h only in the tunnel section between Sitges and Castelldefels (10 km). Between El Vendrell and Sitges (30 km) the maximum speed is 120 km/h, although in some short sections it can be limited to 100 km/h. Between Castelldefels and Sant Boi (20 km), there's a variable speed limit (80-120 km/h) depending on traffic conditions and air quality, but out of peak times it usually remains 100-120km/h. I think only the short section between Sant Boi and Barcelona has a permanent 80 km/h speed limit.


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## ChrisZwolle

I took a photo of M-505 with a view of El Escorial:


M-505 El Escorial 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


M-505 El Escorial 02 by European Roads, on Flickr

Nearby M-512

M-512 Navas del Rey - El Escorial 04 by European Roads, on Flickr

Brand-new pavement.

M-512 Navas del Rey - El Escorial 06 by European Roads, on Flickr

Interesting landscape, it felt a bit like Australia.

M-512 Navas del Rey - El Escorial 08 by European Roads, on Flickr


M-512 Navas del Rey - El Escorial 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## SeñorGol

Those kilometre posts in Madrid look awful... If you want to make it different from the rest, at least make it better  The road looks fun to drive though.


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## g.spinoza

arctic_carlos said:


> There are currently only two toll motorways left in Catalonia: C-32 south of Barcelona (the tolled section is El Vendrell-Castelldefels) and C-16 (Barcelona-Manresa + Cadí tunnel).
> 
> I used to live in Sitges, and although expensive, C-32 is the only real alternative to commute to Barcelona by car in a decent travel time (30-35 minutes). The coastal road (C-31) is very scenic but very winding and always congested with trucks, so in a normal day choosing it means at least 10-15 minutes more than the motorway (and it's only a 10 km section). Besides, there are discounts in the tolls for frequent travelers, so it's not that expensive for commuters. But if you really want to save money, you choose the train.
> 
> Besides, C-32 is limited to 90 km/h only in the tunnel section between Sitges and Castelldefels (10 km). Between El Vendrell and Sitges (30 km) the maximum speed is 120 km/h, although in some short sections it can be limited to 100 km/h. Between Castelldefels and Sant Boi (20 km), there's a variable speed limit (80-120 km/h) depending on traffic conditions and air quality, but out of peak times it usually remains 100-120km/h. I think only the short section between Sant Boi and Barcelona has a permanent 80 km/h speed limit.


I don't remember any 120 section on C-32, but maybe I remember wrong.
I'm sure, though, that the tunnel section is limited to 80, not 90.


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## arctic_carlos

g.spinoza said:


> I don't remember any 120 section on C-32, but maybe I remember wrong.
> I'm sure, though, that the tunnel section is limited to 80, not 90.


I drove that section of C-32 every single day of my life for 15 years, and although I don’t live there anymore, I still go regularly to Sitges (at least twice a year; last time 3 months ago) and I can assure you that the speed limit on the tunnel section between Sitges and Castelldefels is 90 km/h. Here’s a link to Google Street Maps showing the speed sign just after the toll plaza:









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl





And here the speed sign in one of the tunnels:









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl


----------



## g.spinoza

arctic_carlos said:


> I drove that section of C-32 every single day of my life for 15 years, and although I don’t live there anymore, I still go regularly to Sitges (at least twice a year; last time 3 months ago) and I can assure you that the speed limit on the tunnel section between Sitges and Castelldefels is 90 km/h. Here’s a link to Google Street Maps showing the speed sign just after the toll plaza:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goo.gl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here the speed sign in one of the tunnels:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goo.gl


Ok for the first, but the second is a variable sign, and I assure you it was set at 80.

However, after this trip I clinched A7 in its entirety. About AP-7 I only miss the section San Pedro de Alcantara-Sotogrande, and almost all the Alicante bypass.
Moreover, I think I drove more km of autovia/autopista in Spain than autostrada in Italy...


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## ChrisZwolle

I found some photos of A-334 in Almería province. The autovía section between Zurgena and La Concepción looks practically completed. Earlier, it was said that the autovía would open in March 2022, but this seems like a matter of weeks (or less?)





__





OCTUBRE 2021 info AUTOVIA ALMANZORA- La conexion de la autovia del Almanzora con la A7


Ir a la página: 1 · 2 · 3 Usted esta en la Pagina 1 Pagina 1 NOTICIAS Y fotos de la Autovia Almanzora y puente sobre el Rio Almanzora a su paso por Zurgena Julio 2020.Pagina 2 fotos Octubre 2021 de la Autovia Almanzora y puente sobre el Rio Almanzora a su paso por Zurgena Pagina 3 Autovía del...




albox.mforos.com





Interestingly, they signed A-334R4. I think this is 'ramal 4' of A-334, a connector ramp. Normally these numbers do not appear on directional signage but they are sometimes indicated on kilometer posts.


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## CNGL

A-1101? I've been on that today. And it's a "green" road, not a "yellow" one.


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## alserrod

bogdymol said:


> I have read an article recently that many motorways in Catalonia will be toll-free as of now, including the entire Barcelona-Valencia motorway. I thought this has been already implemented.
> 
> Today I drove on C-32 and at Barrera de Vallcarca just south of Barcelona the toll was 7,26 €, quite expensive for this short stretch (although I admit it is full of tunnels in hard landscape).
> 
> Barrera de Vallcarca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barrera de Vallcarca · 08872 Sitges, Barcelona, Spain
> 
> 
> ★★☆☆☆ · Toll booth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goo.gl



All tolls in Catalonia have been dropped except

C32 south (Airport-El Vendrell)
Vallvidrera tunnel
Cadi tunnel

in that motorway, most of toll is just for tunnels indeed (this is, may you get out just before first tunnel, drive at 50 in a shore road and get it just after tunnels, you will save a lot of money. They are 15ish km only... but try to do it...)


----------



## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> All tolls in Catalonia have been dropped except
> 
> C32 south (Airport-El Vendrell)
> Vallvidrera tunnel
> Cadi tunnel
> 
> in that motorway, most of toll is just for tunnels indeed (this is, may you get out just before first tunnel, drive at 50 in a shore road and get it just after tunnels, you will save a lot of money. They are 15ish km only... but try to do it...)


Let me correct you. The following tolls remain in Catalonia as of today:


C32 south (Castelldefels-El Vendrell)
C16 (Barcelona-Sant Cugat, Rubí-Terrassa, Terrassa-Manresa and Cadí tunnel).


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## arctic_carlos

The A-3 / A-40 interchange east of Tarancón will be upgraded to a free-flow interchange (similar to the one west of Tarancón), and at the same time A-40 will get its own carriageways on the shared section with A-3 between west and east of Tarancón:

Current situation:










Future situation:










It seems the government is finally willing to get rid of the few motorway-to-motorway interchanges that aren’t free flow yet. Besides this one, there are plans to upgrade the A-62/A-66 interchange in Salamanca and the A-7/A-92 interchange in Almería, that I’m aware of.


----------



## SeñorGol

Also the VA-30/A-11 junction in Valladolid will be redesigned:





__





Mitma adjudica la redacción del proyecto de remodelación del enlace de la Ronda Exterior de Valladolid VA-30 con la autovía A-11 y la N-122a por 441.630 euros | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es














I could add the A-12/AP-68 west of Logroño, currently nonexistent.


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## arctic_carlos

And the Z-40/A-68 interchange east of Zaragoza will also be upgraded, although it won’t become free flow: an underpass for A-68 will be built below the existing roundabout, so through traffic won’t have to enter the roundabout; but traffic between the two motorways will continue to use the roundabout.


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## alserrod

A-68 in Zaragoza takes for long. There are no budgets at the moment in the ministry.

Local forumers love to have a project but dislike THAT project. Coming from Z-40 to Zaragoza there will be two lanes that will merge in 1 in a dangerous cross


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## ChrisZwolle

The government of the Canary Islands has authorized to start a € 117 million tender to expand the capacity of TF-1 through Playa de las Américas on the south side of Tenerife and create an artificial tunnel through this resort town.









Autorizado un gasto de 117M€ para licitar proyecto y obra ...


El gasto plurianual autorizado implica la licitación inmediata de la contratación conjunta del proyecto y obra contemplada en el Convenio de Carreteras 2018-2027 El Consejo de Gobierno de Canarias ha autorizado en su reunión de hoy el gasto plurianual hasta el ejercicio 2025 -y por un importe...




www3.gobiernodecanarias.org


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## SeñorGol

Guess the motorway. Hint: It's "A-", not some city code prefix, although it's rather short and runs completely within one municipality


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## CNGL

I know it . I clinched it in 2015, the only time I drove all the way there.


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## ChrisZwolle

It's A-13 in Logroño.

I've been looking at the previous road plans, as some sources suggested that A-13 was to replace N-111 between Logroño and Soria. That would make this number more sensible than just the current 4 kilometer route.

However A-13 was defined in the 2003 road numbering as only Logroño - border of Navarra, which was reaffirmed in the 2015 road law (37/2015). Also, no road plan has adopted plans for an A-13 between Logroño and Soria.

This leaves the question why this was numbered as A-13 and not just LO-20 as the Logroño circular road.


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## SeñorGol

Probably the original idea was for the motorway between Logroño and Pamplona (N-111), and leave A-12 for Logroño-Burgos (N-120). A motorway between Logroño and Soria would be very expensive and environmentally hardly justifiable

Nowadays, probably the A-13 would be a good number for the current A-68 (dualling of the N-232) between Zaragoza and Castejón, if/when the AP-68 becomes toll-free and therefore _loses_ the "P":


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## geogregor

New highway bypassing lava flows in La Palma:


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## ChrisZwolle

A contract has been awarded for the southernmost 1.7 km of A-56 near Ourense. It is basically an extension of the existing spur from A-52 to Ourense. The contract value is € 29.3 million.





__





Mitma adjudica el contrato de obras del tramo Eirasvedras – Quintela de la Variante Norte de Ourense por un importe de 29,3 millones de euros | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es














The Miño River crossing already exists:


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## alserrod

geogregor said:


> New highway bypassing lava flows in La Palma:



Nice

Asphalt is always almost perfect in Canary islands


no rain
no temperature gradient

thus, asphalt remains as the first day for long.
I just remember one road in regular conditions (not bad at all)
and some local or less than local ones in the best situation


----------



## geogregor

alserrod said:


> Asphalt is always almost perfect in Canary islands
> 
> no rain
> no temperature gradient
> thus, asphalt remains as the first day for long.
> I just remember one road in regular conditions (not bad at all)
> and some local or less than local ones in the best situation


Not everywhere though. Some roads are in bad condition. There might not be much rain or temperature gradient but there is a lot of erosion and subsidience.

I just came back from La Palma. Here are some bits of LP-4, admittedly a high altitude road:

P1110702 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110705 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110715 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

There are actually a bits of snow on the left:

P1110818 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110841 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110844 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Really heavy erosion in places:

P1110961 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110962 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

LP-403

P1110960 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

But it is fun territory for driving, and in most places surface is indeed good:

P1110806 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


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## geogregor

More roads of La Palma.

LP-2

P1110274 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110275 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

LP-5 approaching airport:

P1110279 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Roads around the airport, quite impressive engineering for the size of the airport:

P1110292 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110298 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110304 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

LP-207 on the far south of La Palma:

P1110403 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110452 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110457 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


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## geogregor

Still LP-207

P1110464 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110471 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110475 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110477 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110483 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110492 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

LP-211:

P1110566 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110575 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1110578 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

geogregor said:


> P1110471 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


These are all banana plantations if I'm not mistaken.


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## arctic_carlos

geogregor said:


> P1110578 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


I know it’s still too early, but I hope they find a solution to connect this road with the houses on the background, through the lava fields. I don’t know whether the current safety and environmental regulations allow the construction of a new road or it’s forbidden in the short term.


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## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> These are all banana plantations if I'm not mistaken.


Yes, those are bananas, local variety, much smaller than standard supermarket stuff. There even is museum  

20220303_175058 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


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## Ryme Intrinseca

The proposed A-2/C-15 cloverleaf east of Igualada. While there are C/D lanes on both roads, on the C-15 there appear to be no physical dividers (only paint) between the C/D lanes and the mainline, and between different directions on the mainline.









You can also see that the loops will be much bigger than the existing ~55m radius one.


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## geogregor

Again in La Palma. LP-1 in the north east of the island:

P1120297 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1120326 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1120328 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1120331 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1120340 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1120463 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1120540 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


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## geogregor

And in the far north. In places it is a really twisted road along the heavily eroding cliffs:

20220304_173159 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1120545 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20220304_173351 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20220304_185513 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20220304_185933 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20220304_190107 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Side road to the promotory:

20220304_184603 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

It was my rental friend. I chose automatic. It drove really well, had enough power for all the endless climbs. La Palma in small island but roads are really fun to drive.

P1120582 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


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## SeñorGol

Construction of the A-11, Valladolid-Quintanilla












La autovía del Duero intensifica su ritmo con casi la totalidad de los pasos superiores ya construidos


Disparidad de opiniones entre los alcaldes del corredor del Duero por el desarrollo de las obras Tudela-Olivares y Olivares-Quintanilla, con un 30% del presupuesto ejecu




www.elnortedecastilla.es


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## ChrisZwolle

Some A-32 news:





__





Raquel Sánchez presenta un paquete de actuaciones que reafirman el compromiso de Mitma con la provincia de Jaén | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





A-32 Torreperogil - Villacarrillo will open in summer 2022
A-32 Villacarrillo - Villanueva del Arzobispo will open in late 2022

Progress appears to be slow. Last year it seemed that it would've been open by now. Construction on these segments commenced in August 2017.

They also mention that tenders for the construction of A-32 Villanueva del Arzobispo - Beas del Segura and Beas de Segura - Arroyo del Ojanco will be launched before summer.

It also mentions that the project documents for a new A-32 / A-316 interchange near Baeza will be approved soon. This interchange is a low-standard half diamond interchange. 

Some photos that were attached to the press release:


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## ChrisZwolle

Heraldo reports that the construction of A-22 at Huesca is behind schedule, with a new completion date in November 2023.









La conclusión de la autovía Huesca-Lérida se retrasa un año más


El Ministerio alarga hasta noviembre de 2023 el plazo de entrega del tramo de Siétamo por complicaciones de la obra. Para entonces habrán pasado casi 19 años desde que se puso la primera piedra de este eje de 108 km.




www.heraldo.es


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## keber

verreme said:


> Unofficial advice from an untrustworthy source (me): don't bother buying the sticker. The police turn a blind eye with foreign-registered cars, and as you will see in Barcelona, many locals haven't put the stickers in their cars yet.
> 
> Besides, a recent court ruling outlawed the ZBE. It's still being fought in court and fines are still being issued but as I said on the last paragraph these restrictions are not fully implemented yet.


Thank to all for the answers. I decided to take a hotel just outside emision zone, close to motorway network and few minutes of walk of the nearest metro station. Less hassle and cheaper too.

Not to be completely offtopic, I was surprised that tolls practically don't exist on dual carriageways in Spain. I know of EU Commission demands of tolling all dual carriage roads, but how will that be really tolled long-term? Are any plans?


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## geogregor

keber said:


> I know of EU Commission demands of tolling all dual carriage roads,


Where is that info from? Poland builds shit loads of expressways, none of them will be tolled.


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## sponge_bob

There is no such EU rule. It is up to every country to decide itself.

Economics often lead to a Vignette system to recover OPEX, maintenance costs in other words, but capital costs are from state budgets or else from PPP type concession schemes going back to the 1920s in Italy or the 1950s in France which are sometimes shared expenditure and sometimes all private cash. 

Since ~= the late 1980s the EU has funded capital costs in poorer areas, as well as governments, but the EU never funded OPEX.


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## Attus

geogregor said:


> Where is that info from? Poland builds shit loads of expressways, none of them will be tolled.


And Germany, the Netherlands, etc., have a lot of motorways, not tolled. 
I assume that info is wrong, there is no such EU rule.


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## keber

I've read about EU demands here:








MAP: The Spanish motorway routes that become toll-free in September 2021


From September 1st, more than 400km of motorways in Spain (mainly in Catalonia) will become toll-free.




www.thelocal.es


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## ChrisZwolle

I believe a 'reform' is necessary to be eligible for EU funds from the recovery package. Apparently the Spanish government wanted to introduced tolls on all autovías and autopistas as a reform. 

However electronic tolling systems are not cost-effective for most Spanish motorways, as their upfront and operational cost is too high relative to the traffic volumes. They would need to install very large numbers of toll gantries, similar systems have proven to be very expensive elsewhere in Europe, such as the failed French truck tolls, the German truck tolls and the Czech truck tolls. Not to mention the effects in Portugal. And the Spanish traffic volumes are lower than in Germany or France, which means the cost per user is higher, making it unprofitable.

The problem is that Spain spends far too less on roads. The maintenance budget is only about a billion euros per year, which is really small for 26,500 kilometer network of national roads and motorways. They need to significantly increase spending on maintenance to prevent the network from deteriorating. They had the luxury of minimal maintenance because so many motorways were relatively new, but most of them are now over 10 - 15 years old and need resurfacing. If you wait too long, it will be more expensive than just resurfacing the top layer.


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## Stuu

keber said:


> I've read about EU demands here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MAP: The Spanish motorway routes that become toll-free in September 2021
> 
> 
> From September 1st, more than 400km of motorways in Spain (mainly in Catalonia) will become toll-free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thelocal.es


I think they are confused. The EU has decided that heavy vehicles should be tolled according to distance rather than an annual carnet or whatever, but only for existing schemes, not everywhere


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Heraldo reports that the construction of A-22 at Huesca is behind schedule, with a new completion date in November 2023.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La conclusión de la autovía Huesca-Lérida se retrasa un año más
> 
> 
> El Ministerio alarga hasta noviembre de 2023 el plazo de entrega del tramo de Siétamo por complicaciones de la obra. Para entonces habrán pasado casi 19 años desde que se puso la primera piedra de este eje de 108 km.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.heraldo.es



I drove there three weeks ago

Sietamo - Loporzano is near to be finished. They started first and it is easy to enlarge motorway and connect again with road. Just three kilometres but...

Loporzano - Huesca and Huesca bypass is running slowly, even junction with A-23 is not started yet


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## SeñorGol

Satellite images of the A-22 dated 18th April. The junction with the A-23 hasn't even started, indeed



Today it's snowing in Somosierra, the highest point in the Spanish motorway network at 1444 m. Not really common this time of the year.


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## alserrod

Thanks for A-22 pictures
Let me share them

As I wrote

Right area Loporzano - Sietamo, advanced
the rest, slowly
A-23 junction not started yet


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## arctic_carlos

Recent pictures of A-23 Sabiñánigo bypass:





__





A-23 - Autovía Nueno-Sabiñánigo-Jaca


Como no todos los que vamos a Jaca venimos de Navarra, País Vasco, Cantabria y demás, supongo que habrá gente de Zaragoza, Valencia, Madrid, etc... que le gustaría saber qué va ocurriendo con la A-23. Ahora mismo están en obras todos los tramos salvo el de Sabiñánigo Est



www.nevasport.com


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## ChrisZwolle

The Alto de Velefique (1820 m) in Almería province. Maybe one of the best motoring roads in Spain?


Alto de Velefique 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


Alto de Velefique 11 by European Roads, on Flickr


Alto de Velefique 14 by European Roads, on Flickr


Alto de Velefique 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

I came across an aerial photo of what is now TF-5 between Santa Cruz and La Laguna on Tenerife. This photo is supposedly dated from 1956, which means that TF-5 is one of the oldest high-standard roads in all of Spain.

In fact, maybe it already opened in 1946 when the Los Rodeos became an international airport?










I believe this building is now the university of La Laguna









A map, but of unknown date (source: Iberpix )


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## SeñorGol

That map is from 1957, here's some detail, you can see some grade-separated junctions:


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## Mietold

geogregor said:


> It looks like it has happened during some works being done on the bridge.


Google already has Streetview images from May 2022, and you can see the works already underway, but before the collapse.









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.pl


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## ChrisZwolle

Another problem on that road, several high lighting masts have fallen over:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1531926111428431873


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## pai nosso

*A-11

Tordesillas » Zamora -- May of 2022 *


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## pai nosso

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## pai nosso

15-


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Source: pai nosso


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## ChrisZwolle

A-11 between Tordesillas and Zamora is showing its age a bit, it was built between 2003 and 2005.

It was one of three toll-free motorways that were built as part of the 1997 _Programa de Autopistas de Peaje_, launched by the Aznar government. This programme was a stop-gap measure between the first generation autovías of the 1980s and early 1990s and the massive autovía boom in the mid-2000s.


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## alserrod

BTW, I do not know if it was said in this thead

AFAIK, A-11 near Soria to open within two weeks


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## ChrisZwolle

A span of the Viaducto del Castro of A-6 near the CyL & Galicia border has collapsed!


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## alserrod

Updating N-260 works

Pictures taken by Newspaper Heraldo de Aragón










More pics here








Imágenes: Fotos de las obras de la N-260 entre Campo y el Congosto del Ventamillo


El Ministerio de Transportes ha ejecutado ya la mitad de la inversión tras perforar dos túneles y colocar 1,3 km de voladizos.




www.heraldo.es


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## SeñorGol

ChrisZwolle said:


> A span of the Viaducto del Castro of A-6 near the CyL & Galicia border has collapsed!


And again, it happened while works to "strengthen" the bridge were being carried out. Fortunately the bridge was closed to traffic since July 2021

Street view, August 2021:








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





Here's a video, see from 4:00


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## ChrisZwolle

It's worth mentioning that this bridge is only 20 years old. It was completed in 2002 as part of the final segment of A-6 built between Ponferrada and Lugo.


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## pai nosso

*SG-20 *[Segovia ring road] -- May of 2022

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## pai nosso

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11- AP-61

Source: pai nosso


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## Reivajar

I do not understand why they do not use the official name of the HS station (Segovia-Guiomar) instead of "estacion AVE", which is a type of HS service within Renfe (and in fact not the most frequent service calling at this station).


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## ChrisZwolle

Plans have been announced to expand 65 kilometers of AP-7 to six lanes between Vila-seca and Amposta:






Xavier Flores anuncia el tercer carril de la AP-7 entre Vilaseca y Amposta | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





Priority will be given to the L`Hospitalet del Infant - Amposta segment (because A-7 ends at L'Hospitalet).


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## bogdymol

I drove there several times. I didn’t find the traffic so heavy to require a 3rd lane. 

Next Monday I will drive again there, both ways. I will pay more attention to traffic.


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## SeñorGol

A local newspaper has filmed the new N-232 east of Morella. Travel times will be cut from 20 to 5 minutes. It is expected to be opened in July.








VÍDEO | Así es la nueva N-232 de Morella: con 68 curvas menos y se recorre en solo cinco minutos


'Mediterráneo' es el primero en testear el nuevo trazado en el puerto de Querol




www.elperiodicomediterraneo.com








bogdymol said:


> I drove there several times. I didn’t find the traffic so heavy to require a 3rd lane.


Was it before of after tolls were lifted? Traffic has increased a lot now that it's toll-free


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## bogdymol

SeñorGol said:


> Was it before of after tolls were lifted? Apparetly traffic has increased a lot now that it's toll-free


I drove there this year, in February and several times in April. So this section was free to drive for everybody.


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## ChrisZwolle

SeñorGol said:


> Traffic has increased a lot now that it's toll-free


I've driven AP-7 several times, including a few days after it became toll-free in September 2021. It was already noticeably busier and traffic counts confirm this, in Castellón province the traffic volumes increased by 77%.


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## alserrod

Thx for sharing about N-232

To be accurate, new road doesn't start at Morella but 5 km away.

those 5 km are on going to be refurbished too


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## Stuu

geogregor said:


> Do you have links to some sources? Especially in English?
> 
> It is interesting engineering question, how modern bridge can collapse so catastrophically, even if during works.


It's a post-tensioned viaduct, the segments are cast and then brought to the site, and then tied together with steel cables. It is a very common construction method but you have to keep the cables from rusting. Hammersmith flyover in London came close to having to be demolished as the cables had been corroded - it cost £100m to mend. However it had been there for 40 years before getting to that stage, so I would suggest there are serious questions to be asked about the construction and quality assurance, and/or the materials used vs specification in the A6 example


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## geogregor

Bastiaan85 said:


> I can recommend the Simple Translate browser extension, which allows you to easily select->translate text in a page. Or translate the whole page with a click of a button, without having to visit Google Translate and paste the link there and so on. That way I never bother on finding specifically English sources anymore.


I do it for basic news stuff but when checking something related to engineering such translations can be "clunky" at best



ChrisZwolle said:


> Not in English, but this article mentions it: El viaducto de O Castro sufre un nuevo derrumbe


Thanks, still nothing more detailed what was really going on during refurbishment when the spans failed. Did they de-tension them etc.



Stuu said:


> It's a post-tensioned viaduct, the segments are cast and then brought to the site, and then tied together with steel cables. It is a very common construction method but you have to keep the cables from rusting. Hammersmith flyover in London came close to having to be demolished as the cables had been corroded - it cost £100m to mend. However it had been there for 40 years before getting to that stage, so I would suggest there are serious questions to be asked about the construction and quality assurance, and/or the materials used vs specification in the A6 example


Something definitely had to go wrong. How did they go from signs of cable corrosion to total collapse, especially during works?


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## Stuu

geogregor said:


> Something definitely had to go wrong. How did they go from signs of cable corrosion to total collapse, especially during works?


Somebody screwed up is most likely, perhaps over-estimated how many cables could be changed out at a time? Possible that the cables weren't strong enough in the first place, so maybe when some were removed the others weren't as strong as they should have been. Possibly the engineers doing the checking didn't realise how bad the corrosion was...Or perhaps it was worse in places they couldn't check. It really shouldn't happen on a bridge that new, built in a tried-and-tested way

I agree about auto-translate on technical articles, it's often completely pointless


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## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> However electronic tolling systems are not cost-effective for most Spanish motorways, as their upfront and operational cost is too high relative to the traffic volumes. They would need to install very large numbers of toll gantries, similar systems have proven to be very expensive elsewhere in Europe, such as the failed French truck tolls, the German truck tolls and the Czech truck tolls. Not to mention the effects in Portugal. And the Spanish traffic volumes are lower than in Germany or France, which means the cost per user is higher, making it unprofitable.


The system can be done cheaply. You only need to have licence plate recognition cameras at every entry and exit, with a mobile system that connects once a day to upload the licence plate data. From there, you have a simple online system, which for instance requires you to pay the bill by the xx day of the next month. For people that are digitally excluded, you use the post office where you can give your licence plate number and a password and pay the bill with a small surcharge. You can issue the passwords by sending letters to the address where the car is registered, and provide for a simple method of getting a new password if you don't receive the letter. 

It doesn't need to be a very complicated or difficult system to install. The problem in other countries is that they've chosen difficult systems with a huge amount of tracking involved. You don't need to know what the Polish car WE 32J12 is doing between Barcelona and Valencia, you only need to know where the car entered and where the car left. Foreign cars are a little bit trickier, but you can handle it by simply requiring a one-time visit to the post office to pick up a password for the online system. 

If someone doesn't pay the bill on time, then they get a paper bill with a small admin fee, like 3 Euro. 

At least in the Czech case, it's well known that corruption was involved there. With Portugal, they devised a complicated system that was far too difficult to use.


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## Attus

Eulanthe said:


> Foreign cars are a little bit trickier, but you can handle it by simply requiring a one-time visit to the post office to pick up a password for the online system.


What means, I can not visit Spain in a weekend or at night, when post offices are closed.


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## geogregor

Attus said:


> What means, I can not visit Spain in a weekend or at night, when post offices are closed.


You should be able to pay later. In Dublin there is toll on M50 motorway around Dublin. You can pay, in different ways, until 8pm the following day (after your journey):






Pay a Toll -


There are a number of options for paying toll charges in Ireland.



www.tii.ie







> The M50 is a motorway around Dublin without a plaza. The eFlow Barrier-Free toll system between Junction 6 and Junction 7 records trips by photographing a vehicle's licence plate number. Drivers without an electronic toll tag or video account must pay for their journey before 8pm the following day to avoid late payment penalties. Payment options include:
> 
> Online at www.eflow.ie
> Calling 0818 50 10 50 / +353 1 461 0122 to pay by credit card
> Paying in Payzone branded outlets nationwide
> Registered drivers can use their electronic toll tag or video account


I was driving rental car and paid easily at one of the gas stations along the way.

It should be possible to give folks entering Spain an option to pay a bit later.


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## pai nosso

*CL-605 -- May of 2022*

Arévalo » Segovia

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## pai nosso

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Segóvia » Arévalo

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## pai nosso

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Source: pai nosso


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## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A-8009 Acceso Norte de Sevilla*
> 
> The _Junta de Andalucía_ reported that the A-8004 interchange of the A-8009 _Acceso Norte de Sevilla_ has opened to traffic on 25 July. This replaces a silly roundabout in the middle of the motorway while an overpass was already built some time ago.
> 
> They also announced that a € 24.3 million contract has been tendered / awarded to construct the _Viaducto del Pago de Enmedio_, which is the missing link of A-8009 north of Sevilla. It has a deadline of 24 months.
> 
> Can someone explain the name _Viaducto del Pago de Enmedio_? Viaduct of the Middle Payment? Does that name makes any sense?
> 
> Source: Abierto al tráfico el nuevo enlace de la autovía de Acceso Norte a La Rinconada


24 months... Well they didn't manage to meet that deadline. But construction is ongoing at the viaducts.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1546388648521760768


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## ChrisZwolle

Mitma licita la redacción del proyecto del cuarto carril de la autopista AP-7 entre el enlace de Sant Celoni hasta Montornès del Vallès | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es










 Mitma licita la redacción del proyecto del cuarto carril de la autopista AP-7 entre los enlaces de Martorell y Vilafranca Centro | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





There are plans to expand AP-7 north and south of Barcelona to 2x4 lanes.


Martorell (A-2) - Vilafranca (C-25): 23 kilometers, € 140 million
Sant Celoni - Montornès del Vallès (C-33): 22 kilometers, € 115 million


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## ChrisZwolle

There is a pretty significant wildfire near the Miravete Pass of A-5 / N-V in Cáceres province. The NASA FIRMS application shows it has jumped both A-5 and N-V. 

N-V travels over a mountain pass while A-5 passes through a tunnel. A-5 was completed in 1995, this was the final segment to be constructed.


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## bogdymol

I want to share with you some roadpics I took during my recent trip to Lanzarote island.

The highest-standard road on the island was Arrecife bypass, an expressway with 100 km/h speed limit:


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## bogdymol

Some scenic rural roads:





































Interesting tree species:


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## bogdymol

Driving through lava fields and between old volcanic cones:





































There are a few unpaved roads, leading only to some tourist attractions. Traffic was almost non-existent (I saw 2 other cars on this 5-km long stretch in a span of about 2 hours):


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## ChrisZwolle

bogdymol said:


> Interesting tree species:


This is an Agave. 

They grow in the Mediterranean region as well, including mainland Spain.


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## alserrod

Great, It is a long time I am not in Lanzarote. I remember first time driving accross national park


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## zyro2012

ChrisZwolle said:


> This is an Agave.
> 
> They grow in the Mediterranean region as well, including mainland Spain.


Considered an invasive species in Spain.
As a curiosity, it dies after flowering.


BiObserva - Agave americana


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## ChrisZwolle

The new N-232 at Puerto de Querol will be inaugurated on Wednesday:









La N-232 que se inaugura el miércoles, un proyecto de todos y todas


El miércoles 20 de julio tendrán lugar los actos de inauguración y apertura del nuevo trazado de la carretera N-232 a su paso por el término de Morella en el tramo del Puerto de Querol, el cual separa el barranco de La Bota ...




www.elperiodic.com


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## alserrod

It is possible for me to be there in a couple of days.
It is some years ago I do not drive on N-232


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## ChrisZwolle

A Dutch reforestation company accidentally sparked a massive, 14,000 hectare wildfire along A-2 near Ateca.


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## ChrisZwolle

Mitma aprueba provisionalmente el proyecto de trazado de la A-56 entre Ourense y el enlace de Cambeo | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





The draft plans for a segment of A-56 north of Ourense have been approved. It's an 8.4 km segment from Ourense to Cambeo.

The cost estimate is € 129.5 million. This is relatively expensive due to an 870 meter viaduct being planned on this stretch, which will span the entire valley of Malvedo.


----------



## SeñorGol

The new N-232 Port de Querol bypass


----------



## SeñorGol

A new viaduct will be built at the junction between the A-15 and N-1 south of San Sebastián.

Current status. Traffic coming from France towards Vitoria or Pamplona has to go through this ridiculous interchange











Some other stretches will be improved too.


Kepa_Jametxo said:


> La Diputación de Gipuzkoa construirá un viaducto para unir la A1 y la A15 en el Nudo de Bazkardo, Andoain. Además, añadirán otro carril hasta la entrada de la A15 en Sorabilla, constuirán una cubierta en Mimendi, mejorarán la curva de la Ikastola de Aita Larramendi y mejorarán los accesos de Sorabilla.
> 
> La obra empezaría en 2024 y terminaría en 2026, y el presupuesto sería de unos 75 millones de euros.
> View attachment 3494442
> 
> View attachment 3494443
> 
> View attachment 3494449
> 
> View attachment 3494452
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Un viaducto de doble carril sustituirá al 'scalextric' entre la A-15 y la N-I en Andoain
> 
> 
> La obra, que agilizará y hará más seguro el nudo de Bazkardo y que impulsa la Diputación de Gipuzkoa, comenzará a comienzos de 2024 con un plazo de ejecución de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.diariovasco.com


----------



## alserrod

I drove on N-232 on Thursday.
Cool, without traffic, peaceful day

It still has several kilometres to be upgraded


----------



## ChrisZwolle

alserrod said:


> It still has several kilometres to be upgraded


This has just been announced to be upgraded:






Mitma aprueba el proyecto de trazado de acondicionamiento de la N-232 entre Masía de la Torreta y Morella Sur | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





They say it's the last segment of N-232 to be upgraded in Castellón province.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The bypass of N-332 at Benissa has finally been completed and opened to traffic today. Construction began in 2007, was then ceased during the financial crisis, relaunched in 2017 but progress was still pretty slow.






Mitma pone en servicio la Variante de Benissa en la carretera N-332 con una inversión de 38 millones de euros | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





The bypass is less important now, considering that AP-7 is toll-free and functions as a bypass for Benissa as well. Other parts of N-332 in this area are not particularly high-standard roads.


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> The bypass of N-332 at Benissa has finally been completed and opened to traffic today. Construction began in 2007, was then ceased during the financial crisis, relaunched in 2017 but progress was still pretty slow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mitma pone en servicio la Variante de Benissa en la carretera N-332 con una inversión de 38 millones de euros | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mitma.es
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bypass is less important now, considering that AP-7 is toll-free and functions as a bypass for Benissa as well. Other parts of N-332 in this area are not particularly high-standard roads.


AP-7 has very few exits in the area, so even now that the motorway is toll-free, the new N-332 bypass will be very useful for traffic going from Calpe (a very touristic town with no AP-7 exit) towards the AP-7 exit north of Benissa, which until now was routed via the urban center of Benissa.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A couple more photos:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552933761490325504
And a video. I've read so many press releases from the ministry that I could actually understand most of what she narrated in the video.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The ministry of transport has announced a massive € 1 billion programme with 40 projects to upgrade AP-7 / AP-2 in Catalonia. 

AP-2 and AP-7 became toll-free in 2021, which means they have to be reconstructed and expanded to accommodate the changed traffic flows.






Raquel Sánchez presenta un programa con más de 40 actuaciones para mejorar la funcionalidad y accesibilidad de la AP-7 y la AP-2 tras eliminar los peajes | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es






widening of AP-7 over three segments (2x3 and 2x4 lanes). 133 km, € 687 million
new interchanges on AP-2 and AP-7. € 75.9 million
reconstruction of interchanges on AP-2 and AP-7. € 52.6 million
expansion of roads nearby AP-2 and AP-7, including a dualization of N-240, reconstruction of A-2 near Abrera/Martorell, N-II four laning around Figueres and more. € 233.7 million


----------



## SeñorGol

Edit: Oops, that was probably too many pictures? Moderators, feel free to edit my post, maybe cut it into 3 parts?

*A-12*

Santo Domingo de la Calzada - Villamayor del Río (currently u/c)






Details: StoDgo-VdR


Villamayor del Río - Villafranca Montes de Oca






Details: VdR-VMdO


Villafranca Montes de Oca - Ibeas de Juarros








Details: VMdO-IdJ

This is how the A-12 will bypass the current "Puerto de la Pedraja" mountain pass


----------



## verreme

^^ So three tunnels?

Has there been any recent development regarding the sections not yet U/C?


----------



## SeñorGol

Three viaducts, actually 

I don't know if there's been any development. The projects were approved years ago, but no works are on sight yet

I got the documents from this webpage, there's other interesting projects in other provinces:





Principales proyectos de construcción aprobados | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A wildfire is traversing A-52 in western Zamora province:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Escalating prices for the A-73 construction between Quintanaortuño and Montorio (north of Burgos).

2016: Fomento somete a información pública el trazado del tramo Quintanaortuño-Montorio de la A-73

€ 67.7 million


2022: Mitma aprueba definitivamente el proyecto de construcción del tramo Quintanaortuño-Montorio de la autovía A-73 | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana

€ 121.5 million


----------



## SeñorGol

I can't remember exactly where, but I heard about public tenders somewhere in Spain ending up null and void, whitout any bidders. This happened due to the estimated budget being too low for current prices (after April '22).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Footage of a wildfire traversing the A-52 motorway, with traffic stopping. Apparently this is near Verín in Galicia, which is a little farther west than the image above which was near Puebla de Sanabria in Zamora province.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555123425018056706


----------



## pai nosso

*AG-41 -- July of 2022 *[Galicia region]

1-


2-


3-


4-


5-


6-


7-


----------



## pai nosso

8-


9-


10-


11-


12-


13-


14-


----------



## pai nosso

15-


16-


17-


18-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*VG-4.1 -- July of 2022 *[Galicia region]

1-


2-


3-


4-


5-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Consell de Mallorca is going to scrap 26 'right-wing megaprojects' from the masterplan.






El conseller Sevillano anuncia l'inici de la redacció del nou Pla Director Sectorial de Carreteres, que «implicarà un nou model, més verd, resilient, que planificarà tota una xarxa de carrils bici i per a vianants, i que preservarà el territori i el paisatge de Mallorca»


Iván Sevillano, conseller de Mobilitat i Infraestructures Iván Sevillano, conseller de Mobilitat i Infraestructures Iván Sevillano, conseller de Mobilitat i Infraestructures Comparteix El...




web.conselldemallorca.cat


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Consell de Mallorca is going to scrap 26 'right-wing megaprojects' from the masterplan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El conseller Sevillano anuncia l'inici de la redacció del nou Pla Director Sectorial de Carreteres, que «implicarà un nou model, més verd, resilient, que planificarà tota una xarxa de carrils bici i per a vianants, i que preservarà el territori i el paisatge de Mallorca»
> 
> 
> Iván Sevillano, conseller de Mobilitat i Infraestructures Iván Sevillano, conseller de Mobilitat i Infraestructures Iván Sevillano, conseller de Mobilitat i Infraestructures Comparteix El...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> web.conselldemallorca.cat


Wow! The amount of propaganda... on an official press release!

The "megaprojects" they're talking about are mostly two-lane bypasses. I guess some of them will eventually be built if there's enough pressure from locals. I would also be very happy to see an island network of bike lanes, as they announce. Intercity bike lanes are very rare in Spain, even in large metro areas.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Traffic chaos at the French border near La Jonquera. The reason: a wildfire.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

La continuación hasta A Estrada de la AG-59 supera el trámite ambiental


La Consellería fija condicionantes al proyecto para garantizar la mínima afección



www.lavozdegalicia.es





The Xunta de Galicia has obtained an environmental clearance to extend AG-59 to A Estrada.

AG-59 is a short autovía south of Santiago de Compostela. The first 6 kilometers opened in 2008 and a continuation was planned at that time, but the plans were temporarily shelved due to the economic crisis. In the meantime, the original environmental approval for the project expired so they needed to update it.

Location of AG-59: OpenStreetMap


----------



## ChrisZwolle

France has closed to the border for trucks coming in at Biriatou / Irun, due to a large wildfire which has closed A63 south of Bordeaux. 

This causes big problems at the border on AP-8:


----------



## alserrod

N-122 was cut between Borja and Tarazona


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Old sign on bu -v -5613.
I suppose DP means Diputación provincial.
I 've never seen this kind of road signs before.
Does anybody know the date or something about them? 
( Pic by me )


----------



## SeñorGol

The current numbering system XX-X-XXXX for provincial roads dates back from the times of Plan Peña, so this sign must have been made before 1940. DP indeed stands for Diputación Provincial (de Burgos).

Nearby I found another pole of the kind, but without the sign
















Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.es


----------



## alserrod

I have driven on A-68 works

Gallur (current A-68) to Gallur cross (N-122) should open in the next days
Gallur cross N-122 to Mallén by pass seems to need a bit more time
Mallén by pass (just 2 km) is currently slow on works


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The A-32 segment between Torreperogil and Villacarillo (13.6 km) will apparently open in mid-September.









El Gobierno anuncia para septiembre la puesta en servicio del tramo de la A-32 hasta Villacarrillo


El Ministerio trabaja en los remates y en trámites administrativos, y ultima el siguiente hasta Villanueva del Arzobispo, previsto para fin de año




www.ideal.es


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Tenerife:










Location: Google Maps


----------



## g.spinoza

I hope the rent is negative (they have to pay me to live there).


----------



## Vignole

ChrisZwolle said:


> Tenerife:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Location: Google Maps


According to Catastro (sedecatastro.gob.es), this building was built in 1965 and has 62 apartments.













g.spinoza said:


> I hope the rent is negative (they have to pay me to live there).


I agree. I have the same feeling with buildings in Italy beneath bridges (I remember those under Polcevera bridge)










Google Maps


----------



## g.spinoza

Vignole said:


> I agree. I have the same feeling with buildings in Italy beneath bridges (I remember those under Polcevera bridge)
> 
> View attachment 3712585
> 
> 
> Google Maps


Sure. They were right about that.

I am much more impressed about the buildings under the viaducts of A22, near the border with Austria. I mean, that Genoa neighborhood is ugly with or without the bridge; but what are the odds that you live in a dream valley and all of a sudden your house finds itself under a sun-blocking huge bridge?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Vignole said:


> According to Catastro (sedecatastro.gob.es), this building was built in 1965 and has 62 apartments.


The nearby hotel on sea level was built in 1968 and this would be the only access road, so my guess is the road was built at the same time as the apartment building. Google Earth also shows that the parking lot in front of the apartment building was built around 2006, but the road on top already existed before that.


----------



## alserrod

About "under the bridge"

Not exactly under the bridge but....











This street was in my city until 2007 or so!!!!

The bridge was an "axe" inside a neighbourhood. There was a railway (Zaragoza-Teruel) under the bridge

There wasn't any house under the bridge but in some of those houses it was enough to get off the house and you really was under it.

After a new line to Teruel, that area was demolished with a new design.

You can compare









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com







Have a look to the first three roofs in the right side. They are the same ones!!!!!

Old railway tracks are now a pedestrian corridor (sometimes with car lanes, but enough enough space for pedestrian) plus bike lanes and parks.
It is a beautiful place to walk inside the city (the rest of the neighbourhood isn't, btw)

In the left side (according to picture) of the old tracks they made "The tunnel". Amazing studios for amateur music groups. They can rent studios for just some hours per week (or more), save there all instruments (instead of carrying back home), recording hall, concert hall.... and they will not disturb anyone. It is a tunnel indeed.


----------



## id037

There is a similar street in my town, but afaik it's offices/businesses under the road.


















Google Maps


Busca negocios locales, consulta mapas y consigue información sobre rutas en Google Maps.




www.google.es


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think it needs more road numbers. 17 is not enough.


----------



## CNGL

Yes, because A-42, R-5, A-5 and A-6 are missing .


----------



## KRX_69

*SE-30*

01.
SE-30 - saída SE-40 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-92*

02.
A-92 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

03.
A-92 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

04.
A-92 - saída Archidona by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

05.
A-92 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

06.
A-92 - saída GR-43 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

07.
acesso GR-43 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*GR-43*

08.
GR-43 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

09.
GR-43 - saída A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

10.
GR-43 - saída A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-44*

11.
A-44 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

12.
A-44 - saída A-92 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

13.
A-44 - saída A-92 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


----------



## KRX_69

*A-92*

01.
A-92 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

02.
A-92 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

03.
A-92 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-92N*

04.
A-92N - saída Parque Natural Sierra de Baza by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

05.
A-92N - saída Freila by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

06.
A-92N - saída Baza by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

07.
A-92N by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

08.
A-92N by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

09.
A-92N - saída Puerto Lumbreras by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-7*

10.
A-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

11.
A-7 - saída Lorca by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

12.
A-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

13.
A-7 - saída La Ñora by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

14.
A-7 - saída A-30 Murcia by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

15.
A-7 - saída A-30 Murcia by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

16.
A-7 - saída A-30 Murcia by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

17.
A-7 - saída Fortuna by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


----------



## alserrod

Newspaper Heraldo has published some recent pictures about A-22 between Huesca and Sietamo

They say, works are on 45%









Imágenes: Obras del tramo Huesca-Siétamo de la A-22


Las obras del último tramo de la autovía Huesca-Siétamo alcanzan el 45% de grado de ejecución.




www.heraldo.es





Some of the pics are


----------



## KRX_69

*N-332*

01.
N-332 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

02.
N-332 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*N-338*

03.
N-338 - saída aeroporto by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

04.
N-338 - saída Torrellano by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

05.
N-338 - saída Torrellano by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

06.
N-338 - acesso A-70 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-70*

07.
A-70 - saída A-31 Alicante by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

08.
A-70 - saída Alicante by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*AP-7*

09.
AP-7 - saída El Campello by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

10.
AP-7 - saída La Vila Joiosa by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

11.
AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

12.
AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

13.
AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

14.
AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

15.
AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

16.
AP-7 - saída Benidorm by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

17.
AP-7 - saída Benidorm by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


----------



## KRX_69

*N-332*

01.
N-332 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

02.
N-332 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*AP-7*

03.
AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

04.
AP-7 - saída San Pedro del Pinatar by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

05.
AP-7 - saída Los Tárragas by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

06.
AP-7 - saída RM-11 San Javier by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

07.
AP-7 - saída Los Alcázares by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

08.
AP-7 - saída AP-7 Murcia by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

09.
AP-7 - saída AP-7 Murcia by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

10.
acesso AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

11.
AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

12.
AP-7 - saída A-30 Murcia by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

13.
AP-7 - saída Cartagena by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

14.
AP-7 - saída Fuente Álamo by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

15.
AP-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

16.
AP-7 - saída Mazarrón by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

17.
AP-7 - saída Cañada de Gallego by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

18.
AP-7 - saída Calabardina by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

19.
AP-7 - saída Águilas by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

20.
AP-7 - saída Pulpí by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

21.
AP-7 - saída Cuevas del Almanzora by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

*A-7*

22.
A-7 - saída Los Gallardos by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

23.
A-7 by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

24.
A-7 - saída Carboneras by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

25.
A-7 - saída Campohermoso by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's not going so well at A-54 in Galicia, both segments are approximately 2 years behind schedule:









El Gobierno confirma que la autovía Lugo-Santiago estará finalizada en el 2024


Isabel Pardo de Vera anunció la apertura del tramo Palas-Melide el año próximo, y el de Melide-Arzúa, el siguiente



www.lavozdegalicia.es






Palas de Rei - Melide (11.7 km), construction start July 2017, originally planned for late 2021, now 2023
Melida - Arzúa (16.4 km), construction start March 2018, originally planned for 2022, now 2024


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The plans for A-14 continue to be scaled back.

MITMA presented the agenda for the N-230 corridor from Lleida to the French border, which runs through the Pyrenees. In this plan, A-14 will only be extended to Alfarràs, which is 4-5 kilometers north of the existing terminus of A-14.






Mitma presenta la agenda de actuaciones para mejorar la carretera N-230 entre Almenar y la frontera francesa | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





In the 2000 road plan, it was planned to extend A-14 all the way to the Viella/Vielha Tunnel. This was scaled back to Sopeira in 2005, then Benabarre in 2021 and now Alfarràs in 2022.

Instead, N-230 will be upgraded to a 2+1 road. I've driven this entire route a few times, it has low traffic volumes but especially the Benabarre - Sopeira - Vielha segment is difficult due to the terrain. Many parts of N-230 are extremely curvy and there are some steep segments with slow traffic. So 2+1 with improved geometry will provide significant safety and travel time benefits.


----------



## alserrod

10 km on A-68 will open this Thursday

(before Autumn, minister said!!)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Confirmed by Heraldo. The Gallur - Mallén segment will open on 22 September.









La A-68 se abre el jueves de Gallur a Mallén y los 4 km hasta Navarra estarán en un año


La autovía de Logroño suma otros 10 kilómetros tras ejecutarse el 70% del tramo final en la provincia de Zaragoza. La bonificación de la autopista se suprimirá ya al solventarse el nudo con la N-122 y la A-127.




www.heraldo.es





Also reported: A-32 between Torreperogil and Villacarrillo will open this week.









El tramo de la A-32 Torreperogil-Villacarrillo, en la provincia de Jaén, entrará en servicio "en esta misma semana"


El tramo de la A-32 (Bailén-Albacete) entre Torreperogil y Villacarrillo, en la provincia de Jaén,...




www.europapress.es


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Spanish government has decided to build SE-40 south of Sevilla across the Guadalquivir River by a large bridge, and not by a tunnel as was originally planned.

The new bridge will be 3.6 km long and have a draft of 71 meters, this would make it one of the highest non-mountain bridges in Europe. 

The cost is estimated at € 458 million and it could be completed by 2029.






Mitma presenta el Anteproyecto para cerrar la SE-40 entre Dos Hermanas y Coria del Río con un viaducto para cruzar el Guadalquivir | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es


----------



## Little

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Spanish government has decided to build SE-40 south of Sevilla across the Guadalquivir River by a large bridge, and not by a tunnel as was originally planned.
> 
> The new bridge will be 3.6 km long and have a draft of 71 meters, this would make it one of the highest non-mountain bridges in Europe.
> 
> The cost is estimated at € 458 million and it could be completed by 2029.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mitma presenta el Anteproyecto para cerrar la SE-40 entre Dos Hermanas y Coria del Río con un viaducto para cruzar el Guadalquivir | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mitma.es


Spanish government has decided to put into consideration the option of a bridge, instead of a tunnel. Now it has to go through ambiental evaluation. The estimated date to finish the construction, at the moment, might be considered as a political date, because next year it's election year.


----------



## zyro2012

At the end of the note it says:


> una vez aprobado definitivamente el anteproyecto, se licitará de forma conjunta el proyecto y la obra.
> 
> Once the preliminary project has been definitively approved, the project and the work will be tendered jointly.


Can the work be tendered at the same time as the project?


----------



## zyro2012

*Attention! includes new VIDEO about the bridge: (spanish)*
I don't know why half of the video has been published on the official twitter of the ministry, and the press has it in its entirety.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572911996336766977


----------



## Little

zyro2012 said:


> At the end of the note it says:
> 
> Can the work be tendered at the same time as the project?


Yes, but I think it would be the first time for the minister.


----------



## zyro2012

Little said:


> Yes, but I think it would be the first time for the minister.


I do not understand how a work can be tendered at the same time as the project is tendered.
Could it be a note typo?
it would not be the only one, because in the same note it mentions 2028 and 2029 as commissioning of the section.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I haven't seen a confirmation that A-68 Gallur - Mallén opened to traffic today.

However A-32 Torreperogil - Villacarrillo is confirmed for opening tomorrow: Raquel Sánchez preside la puesta en servicio del nuevo tramo de la A-32 entre Torreperogil y Villacarrillo | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> The new bridge will be 3.6 km long and have a draft of 71 meters, this would make it one of the highest non-mountain bridges in Europe.


These dimensions are similar to the Suez Canal Bridge in Egypt. Which is 3.9 km long and 70 meters high above the water. 

This is a colossal bridge in context to the flat landscape, it would be similar in Sevilla. The approach spans are pretty huge.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> I haven't seen a confirmation that A-68 Gallur - Mallén opened to traffic today.


Heraldo reports that the opening date has moved to 29 September:









La A-68 entre Gallur y Mallén se abrirá finalmente al tráfico el 29 de septiembre


El secretario general de Infraestructuras acudirá a la puesta en servicio de los 10 kilómetros y habrá que esperar otro año para circular por los poco más de 4 kilómetros pendientes hasta Navarra.




www.heraldo.es


----------



## dirdam

ChrisZwolle said:


> These dimensions are similar to the Suez Canal Bridge in Egypt. Which is 3.9 km long and 70 meters high above the water.
> 
> This is a colossal bridge in context to the flat landscape, it would be similar in Sevilla. The approach spans are pretty huge.


We have a similar bridge much nearer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Constitución_de_1812_Bridge


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Heraldo reports that the opening date has moved to 29 September:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La A-68 entre Gallur y Mallén se abrirá finalmente al tráfico el 29 de septiembre
> 
> 
> El secretario general de Infraestructuras acudirá a la puesta en servicio de los 10 kilómetros y habrá que esperar otro año para circular por los poco más de 4 kilómetros pendientes hasta Navarra.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.heraldo.es



Same news in another newspaper based in Aragón









La autovía A-68 entre Gallur y Mallén se estrenará por fin el próximo jueves


La obra está totalmente terminada y solo quedará por concluir el tramo de 4 kilómetros que conecta con Navarra, que será una realidad en el último cuatrimestre de 2023




www.elperiodicodearagon.com


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Spanish government has decided to build SE-40 south of Sevilla across the Guadalquivir River by a large bridge, and not by a tunnel as was originally planned.
> 
> The new bridge will be 3.6 km long and have a draft of 71 meters, this would make it one of the highest non-mountain bridges in Europe.
> 
> The cost is estimated at € 458 million and it could be completed by 2029.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mitma presenta el Anteproyecto para cerrar la SE-40 entre Dos Hermanas y Coria del Río con un viaducto para cruzar el Guadalquivir | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mitma.es


The report talks about the different tunnelled options, but they are all bored with TBMs. It's not a very wide river, odd that they aren't considering an immersed tube solution - are there any of those in Spain?


----------



## verreme

^^ A-8 at the estuary of Villaviciosa.


----------



## Stuu

That looks like a cut and cover tunnel to me - immersed tubes are where segments are built away from the tunnel route and floated to the site and sunk


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MITMA released some renders of the cable-stayed bridge to be built across the Guadalquivir south of Sevilla.

The press release stated 'cuatro carrilles', but apparently that is not 2x2, but 4 lanes each way.
The original plan was to build a four tube tunnel (4x2 lanes). The adjoining segments of SE-40 have 2x3 lanes.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574091090868805635


----------



## zyro2012

ChrisZwolle said:


> The press release stated 'cuatro carrilles', but apparently that is not 2x2, but 4 lanes each way.
> The original plan was to build a four tube tunnel (4x2 lanes). The adjoining segments of SE-40 have 2x3 lanes.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574091090868805635


And in addition to the 4 lanes in each direction for motor vehicles, let's not forget that a cycle-pedestrian path is also planned, of course separated from the main road.

The general secretary of infrastructures, Mr. Xavier Flores, has also declared that a tram could be incorporated, something that the administrations must propose in the period of allegations, which will begin just after the period of public exhibition that will begin in a few days.


----------



## geogregor

Fascinating operation:









Strand jacks lower Spanish viaduct into place in delicate balancing act


Mammoet has used its highest-capacity strand jack equipment to install a 162 metre-long twin viaduct over a protected natural habitat in northern Spain.




www.theconstructionindex.co.uk







> The viaduct links road tunnels on either side of the Bolintxu valley, a protected area of natural beauty and ecological importance near the port of Bilbao.
> 
> The valley sits on the route of the new Supersur relief road which is being built so that traffic heading to the port can avoid travelling through the city.
> 
> Much of the Supersur is now complete and the viaduct over the Bolintxu valley is the last link in the chain. Because of the valley’s ecological importance, the client required that not only should any structure crossing it have minimal footprint, but also that the construction process should not intrude on the valley floor.
> 
> So instead of erecting temporary scaffold towers to support the viaduct during construction, it was decided to assemble each bridge arch in two sections, one on each side of the valley, and then slowly lower them down to meet in the middle.
> 
> Each semiarch was built upright, supported by a temporary scaffolding tower and mounted on top of a large swivel. Once both semiarches were completed, they were simultaneously tilted down and lowered, rotating on their swivels in a smooth and controlled strand jack operation


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I wonder how common this is in Europe, I can't think of any similar project off the top off my head, but I don't know every single arch bridge ever built.

This construction method is used fairly frequently in China.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Video of the new segment of A-68 between Gallur and Mallén, inaugurated today.


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder how common this is in Europe, I can't think of any similar project off the top off my head, but I don't know every single arch bridge ever built.
> 
> This construction method is used fairly frequently in China.


Arch bridges at all are pretty rare, especially at this scale. Generally it would have been a cable-stayed bridge, but presumably they wanted the minimum visual impact


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A desert? In Europe? Yes!

I took a couple of photos of the former N-340 in the Tabernas Desert, which is north of Almería. A-92 was built alongside it.


Antigua N-340 Tabernas 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


Antigua N-340 Tabernas 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Antigua N-340 Tabernas 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


Antigua N-340 Tabernas 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## SeñorGol

There's an arch bridge for the A-66 near Arcos de Alconétar in Cáceres (very appropriate name for an arch bridge BTW)





Also, arch bridges have been used in Spain for High Speed lines


----------



## SeñorGol

The works on the A-12 Burgos-Ibeas never really started, but some expropiations were made. Google Earth shows the route of the future motorway due to the difference between the arable and the expropiated land. The whole stretch is being redefined, especially the connection with the AP-1, which is now toll-free.

Connection with the AP-1.


Some houses resist


A bend to avoid a military area


Roundabouts west of Ibeas


----------



## SeñorGol

New painting schemes are being tested all around Spain.

Lately I've seen that new arrows painted on motorways are smaller. They used to be around twice as long as the ones on normal roads, but now they look similar. Probably they want to save money?

They used to look like this, sort of British-style (but mirrored)


Then, some were changed into this:


Now they're like this


Compare the length, new (left) vs old (right)



From Street view, at the A-2 / A-15 junction near Medinaceli. A different style of arrow: shorter, but not "British"






Any thoughts on this? Better or worse, what do you think? I admit that, as a motorbike rider, I don't quite like excessive painting...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is quite a large variation in the application of road markings. Evidently, every country thinks they have the best design, otherwise they wouldn't make it a design standard. 

The Netherlands uses a 9-3 system for lane markings (3 meter stripe, 9 meter gap, 3 meter stripe, 9 meter gap, etc.)


----------



## SeñorGol

The problem in Spain is that roads markings change every 10 years 🤯

I wonder if the EU has ever tried to standardise road markings...


----------



## bogdymol

SeñorGol said:


> I wonder if the EU has ever tried to standardise road markings...


On one side I would support an EU-wide standardization. It is practical to have all details the same as at home, makes accommodation piece of cake.

On the other side, I always like when I drive in a new country and the road markings are just slightly different, to remind me I am in a new place. I like that.


----------



## alserrod

I have just posted this information in another thread

Works on going and planned (and just open) in Aragon




alserrod said:


> A-68 Gallur - Mallén. INAUGURADO. Nota MITMA. Sep'22
> 
> A-22 Huesca - Siétamo. En obras 45%. Heraldo. Sep'22
> A-23 Sabiñánigo Este - Sabiñánigo Oeste. En obras. Diario AA. Ene'22
> A-21. Pantano de Yesa. En obras
> A-68 Mallén, restan 4 km, previstos 2023 (Sep'22)
> A-68 El Burgo de Ebro - Fuentes de Ebro. En obras (Inicio obras 2020 Heraldo)
> N-211 Variante de Alcorisa. Adjudicada Sep'19 Nota MITMA.
> N-260 Congosto de Ventamillo. Adjudicada Nov'19 Nota MITMA. Obras 50% Heraldo Jun'22
> N-330 Teruel - Villastar. En obras. Adjudicada Mar'22 Nota MITMA. Obras Diario Teruel Sep'22
> 
> A-68 Alcañiz - Valdealgorfa. Redacción de proyecto. Nota MITMA Dic'21
> A-68 Regallo - Alcañiz. Redacción de proyecto. Nota MITMA Jun'22
> A-68 Fuentes de Ebro - Quinto. Redacción de proyecto. Nota MITMA Jun'22
> N-420 Variante de Utrillas. Redacción de proyecto. Nota MITMA Dic'21
> 
> A-23 Lanave - Sabiñánigo sur. Aprobación trazado. Nota MITMA Jul'22
> A-15 Agreda - Tarazona - Novallas. Aprobación trazado. Nota MITMA  Ago'22
> A-68 Quinto - Azaila. Aprobado estudio informativo. Nota MITMA Ene'19
> A-68 Azaila - Híjar. Aprobado estudio informativo. Nota MITMA Ene'19
> A-68 Híjar - Regallo. Aprobado estudio informativo. Nota MITMA Ene'19


----------



## alserrod

Current picture of N-260 at Ventamillo gorge by Heraldo












and Maps picture about N-211 Alcorisa bypass


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The 8.6 km segment of A-23 around Sabiñánigo appears to be substantially behind schedule.

The construction was awarded in September 2019 with a completion in early 2023, however as of now, the progress is only 44%, so at this pace we're likely looking at 2024-2025 for completion.









El tramo Sabiñánigo Este-Oeste de la A-23, ejecutado al 44 %


El proyecto fue aprobado con un presupuesto de 106,3 millones




www.diariodelaltoaragon.es


----------



## CNGL

Psst, don't say that loud, 2023 is election year so anything is possible.

In other news, this weekend I claimed a full clinch of all existing sections of A-15, after driving it between Medinaceli and Almazan which I still had missing. I also drove the newly opened section of A-68 between Gallur and Mallen, but I'll need to go to that area again as it isn't finished yet.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The 11 kilometer segment of A-11 between El Burgo de Osma and San Esteban de Gormaz is delayed to 2023. The progress in August 2022 was 66%. The cost escalation is 25%. 

Location of the project: OpenStreetMap









El tramo El Burgo-San Esteban de la A-11 se encarece un 25% por los materiales


El presupuesto se eleva a 41 millones tras la revisión de precios aprobada en junio / El porcentaje de ejecución de la obra es del 66% y se abrirá al tráfico en 2023




heraldodiariodesoria.elmundo.es


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The A-21 completion to Jaca is delayed to 2027.

The Sigüés - Tiermas segment, awarded in September 2017, was originally scheduled for completion in mid 2021, but has been delayed to sometime 2023.

The other two segments west of Jaca don't have allocated sufficient funding to start construction in 2023.

Insufficient funding in the state budget has delayed virtually all construction projects in Spain.









La finalización de la Autovía a Jaca se retrasa al menos hasta 2027


Faltan 3 tramos por construirse, y 6 en todo el eje de vía rápida hasta Lleida




www.diariodenavarra.es


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Construction works for the N-536 / N-120 link road at O Barco in Galicia will resume at the end of this month.

This project started in 2019 with an initially planned completion in late 2022, however works were stopped in May 2021 due to geotechnical problems and slope stability, which affected the design of the project.

It's unclear when this project will be finished, but the project contains 5 bridges and a 490 meter long tunnel, which has apparently not started construction yet, so an opening would likely be several years into the future.









Las obras de la circunvalación de O Barco se reanudarán a finales de mes


El ministerio de Transportes y la empresa adjudicataria han llegado a un acuerdo sobre los cambios en el proyecto



www.lavozdegalicia.es





N-536 is the former route of N-120 between Ponferrada and O Barco, which was built on a new alignment during the 1980s to improve Ponferrada - Ourense traffic. N-536 is therefore not a major route anymore, however there is large-scale open pit mining in the mountains east of O Barco, so this bypass would take heavy truck traffic out of town.

There are a couple of photos in this article: La circunvalación de O Barco, la carretera que nunca llega


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some more news;

The B-25 autovía works will resume, the Ministerial Council has greenlit plans to tender the works to complete B-25. It is estimated at € 63 million.






El Gobierno autoriza las obras en el Baix Llobregat para prolongar la autovía y mejorar la movilidad por más de 63 millones de euros | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





This autovía is located at Sant Boi de Llobregat, west of Barcelona. It will link A-2 and C-32. Works started in 2009 but were stopped at some point.





















The ministry has approved the publication of the definitive project for the 13 kilometer Puertollano bypass. They call this N-420, but it is an extension of A-41, and will be built to autovía characteristics. The project includes a 1.7 km twin tube tunnel. The cost estimate is € 110 million.






Mitma aprueba el expediente de información pública y definitivamente el proyecto de trazado de la Variante de Puertollano | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> The ministry has approved the publication of the definitive project for the 13 kilometer Puertollano bypass. They call this N-420, but it is an extension of A-41, and will be built to autovía characteristics. The project includes a 1.7 km twin tube tunnel. The cost estimate is € 110 million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mitma aprueba el expediente de información pública y definitivamente el proyecto de trazado de la Variante de Puertollano | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mitma.es


They already say that it will be part of A-43:

"_La variante de la carretera N-420, a su paso por Puertollano, se integrará en la autovía A-43 Extremadura - Comunidad Valenciana_."


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That is odd. A-43 is not planned anymore (they want to improve N-430 on its existing alignment). And N-430 is farther north (from Ciudad Real).

A-43 would only make sense if they decided to construct A-43 via Puertollano to Alamadén, which was one of the variants studied in the past.


----------



## verreme

^^ They might be intending to integrate A-41 into A-43 now that the eastwards extension of A-43 towards Extremadura has been cancelled. It's also highly unlikely that they will build anything south of Puertollano given the environmental value of the area.


----------



## alserrod

Or just having a good bypass for Puertollano


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A 9.7 kilometer segment of the upgraded CG-2.2 will open to traffic tomorrow between A Pobra de San Xiao and Sarria in Lugo Province (Galicia). This has been upgraded to a 120 km/h four lane autovía.

Normally when a Corredor Gallego is upgraded to an autovía, it will receive an 'AG' number (Autovía Gallego), however this is not mentioned in the press release.

The location of this project (Exit 13 to 24): OpenStreetMap










La Xunta pondrá en servicio desde mañana un tramo de la nueva autovía Nadela-Sarria desde el enlace de A Pobra de San Xiao hasta el de Sarria centro


La Xunta pondrá en servicio desde mañana un tramo de la nueva autovía Nadela-Sarria desde el enlace de A Pobra de San Xiao hasta el de Sarria centro




www.xunta.gal


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Normally when a Corredor Gallego is upgraded to an autovía, it will receive an 'AG' number (Autovía Gallego), however this is not mentioned in the press release.


Because the neighboring sections are still 2-laned only?


----------



## verreme

^^ It's AG-22 according to Wikipedia. It's not on the official road numbering catalog of Xunta de Galicia, but it may be added soon, we'll have to check for updates.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

AG-22 confirmed:


----------



## alserrod

Estimated time to Finish A-22 between Sietamo and Huesca

March 2024









El tramo Siétamo-Huesca de la A -22 finalizará el primer trimestre de 2024


Los plazos de fin de obra, que ejecuta la UTE Copcisa-Vidal siguen acumulando retrasos tras varios años en obras | Cadena SER




cadenaser.com


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The six laning of the final 4 kilometers of V-21 north of Valencia is pretty much complete.

The three lanes into Valencia opened yesterday, the three lanes northbound will open next week.

V-21 is the northern access road to Valencia. It was built in the 1970s and used to carry all through traffic in Eastern Spain until A-7 around Valencia opened in 1992. It is now mainly a commuter route.


----------



## verreme

^^ And at the same time they widened the first stretches they lowered the speed limit to 100 km/h because you know, six lanes makes the road less safe right? They did the same with the A-7 bypass. Maybe the same person is making these super logical decisions.


----------



## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> V-21 is the northern access road to Valencia. It was built in the 1970s and used to carry all through traffic in Eastern Spain until A-7 around Valencia opened in 1992.


Chris, what was the route through Valencia before 1992?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-7 around Valencia was built in 1990-1992. 

Before that, this road V-21 and V-31 south of Valencia carried through traffic, with traffic then proceeding through the city of Valencia. Valencia was called the 'biggest traffic light of Europe' in some news articles at that time.

Article from 1986 calling Valencia the stop light of Europe: Valencia, 'el semáforo de Europa'


----------



## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> Before that, this road V-21 and V-31 south of Valencia carried through traffic


Thank you! I was under the (obviously wrong) impression that the V-31 - V-30 - CV-31 - CV-35 - A-7 was the main route. I cannot imagine the level of traffic through Valencia, especially as the 
Pont l'Assut de l'Or hadn't been built and most traffic presumably went through Placa d'Europa. And from what I know, Pont de Montolivet only opened in 1988 (I think?), so I assume the main route was across the Pont d'Aragó or the Pont de l'Àngel Custodi.


----------



## Vignole

This is the 1986 Michelin map of Spain edition:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That map also shows the planned El Saler - Silla connection south of Valencia. It was never completed, the north half is now CV-500, previously numbered V-15.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

La segunda calzada de la autovía A-63 entre Salas y El Regueirón entra en servicio el lunes día 7


El tramo, muy esperado en la zona, suma 4,9 kilómetros de longitud y en su construcción se han invertido 8,17 millones de euros




www.lne.es





A 4.9 kilometer segment of A-63 in Asturias will open to traffic on 7 November.

This is basically the four laning of the bypass of Salas, from the exit near Casazorrina to the El Regueirón Viaduct on the west side of Salas.

A-63 has a strange history in this region, it was planned as a four lane autovía and most structures were also built for four lanes, including several large bridges, but not all. Eventually only one carriageway was put into service in 2012. As this is not a real motorway, it's basically an upgraded N-634 for the time being. It is also signed as N-634 despite being built as one carriageway of A-63.

The segment now four laned is an easier part around Salas, which was already half built as an autovía.

The traffic volumes in this area don't really justify expanding the rest to four lanes, especially since N-634 is a low standard road from La Espina to A-8 near Luarca. Like many secondary roads in Asturias, this is a very curvy road.


----------



## Stuu

Is the gap in A63 going to be finished anytime soon?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've noticed some ramps of autovías have the express road sign (_vía para automóviles_).

My thinking is that they install this sign because it is more restrictive than the autovía sign in banning slow traffic. Autovías normally allow cyclists if not specifically prohibited by a sign. This _vía para automóviles_ sign seems to be a way to easily prohibit all types of slow vehicles.










Traditional ban on slow vehicles:


----------



## verreme

Stuu said:


> Is the gap in A63 going to be finished anytime soon?


Next year according to this source.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> That map also shows the planned El Saler - Silla connection south of Valencia. It was never completed, the north half is now CV-500, previously numbered V-15.


It was actually set to become A-7. However there was great opposition to a potential motorway through the Albufera.

What is now called V-31 served as the main gateway to Valencia as a duplication of N-332. This primitive "autovía" ran through Silla; I'm not sure about the existance of at-grade intersections at the town. You can see the planned N-332/A-7 split just before Silla. It is now a local road.

I made a video about this a few years ago.


----------



## Eulanthe

verreme said:


> I made a video about this a few years ago.


Do I understand rightly, that this was the former terminus of AP-7?





__





39°20'27.9"N 0°24'24.8"W · Plaça Numero 32-DIS, 25, 46460 Silla, València, Spain


Plaça Numero 32-DIS, 25, 46460 Silla, València, Spain




www.google.com





Thank you for the video, it was very informative!


----------



## Little

verreme said:


> Next year according to this source.


Be sure that this gap won’t be ready next year. The works of landslide reconstruction are very high from the definitive level of the motorway. Let’s hope it will be finished by 2024


----------



## panda80

Drove end of september on N-I and A-1 between San Sebastian and Vitoria. A very interesting road, signed as N-I until Etxegarate Pass, then as A1, but a free-flowing dual-carriageway road on the whole distance, with a spectacular landscape around. There are many tights exits and curves on the N-I, I guess that's why it is not signed as autovia (A-1) on the whole distance?


----------



## verreme

Eulanthe said:


> Do I understand rightly, that this was the former terminus of AP-7?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 39°20'27.9"N 0°24'24.8"W · Plaça Numero 32-DIS, 25, 46460 Silla, València, Spain
> 
> 
> Plaça Numero 32-DIS, 25, 46460 Silla, València, Spain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the video, it was very informative!


Yes this was indeed the motorway terminus until the bypasses of Silla (and Valencia) were built.



panda80 said:


> Drove end of september on N-I and A-1 between San Sebastian and Vitoria. A very interesting road, signed as N-I until Etxegarate Pass, then as A1, but a free-flowing dual-carriageway road on the whole distance, with a spectacular landscape around. There are many tights exits and curves on the N-I, I guess that's why it is not signed as autovia (A-1) on the whole distance?


The Basque road numbering system still keeps old N- numbers for motorways. Despite its low standard, N-I is still considered an "autovía" (motorway). Another Basque N- motorway is N-637 in Bilbao.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The exit numbering on A-63 is also changed at Salas. This was exit 451 (based on N-634). It is now exit 37. The photo seems to have been taken from the under construction segment from Cornellana to Salas.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1589611950564028416


----------



## Little

ChrisZwolle said:


> The exit numbering on A-63 is also changed at Salas. This was exit 451 (based on N-634). It is now exit 37. The photo seems to have been taken from the under construction segment from Cornellana to Salas.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1589611950564028416


No, this photo is made from the inaugurated segment.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think so, the power line and background don't match with that direction: Google Maps


----------



## sponge_bob

Was it signed A1, once, maybe in the 1980s and then downgraded by the Basque region later???



panda80 said:


> There are many tights exits and curves on the N-I, I guess that's why it is not signed as autovia (A-1) on the whole distance?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

sponge_bob said:


> Was it signed A1, once, maybe in the 1980s and then downgraded by the Basque region later???


The original autovías were considered to be upgrades of national roads and were signed with a national road number (in this case N-I) nationwide until 2003. The entire country then renumbered these routes with A-numbers, except for Gipuzkoa province. A-1 is signed as A-1 in the other Basque province it travels through (Álava), so it's only Gipuzkoa and not the other two Basque provinces.

Basque Country is a bit of an exception, it's the only autonomous community in mainland Spain that doesn't own any roads. All road ownership has been transferred to the provinces there.


----------



## Eulanthe

verreme said:


> Yes this was indeed the motorway terminus until the bypasses of Silla (and Valencia) were built.


Thanks! That explains why there were two petrol stations at that roundabout, because it would have made sense to have them on entry/exit from the AP-7. 

I found something fascinating on Av. del Cid in Valencia - Google Maps - this sign was removed between 2017-2018, but it shows Barcelona in the direction of the city centre. It must be from before the opening of the Valencia bypass, right?

Also these signs: Google Maps

Would these signs also be quite old? They've been removed between 2019 and 2021.


----------



## Little

ChrisZwolle said:


> I don't think so, the power line and background don't match with that direction: Google Maps


No, its 1 km back. They started the exit lane before the Nonaya’s bridge


----------



## alserrod

sponge_bob said:


> Was it signed A1, once, maybe in the 1980s and then downgraded by the Basque region later???



No, it is a weird situation but...


In Guipuzcoa province, it is signed as N-I instead of A-1
It finish in San Sebastian nowadays. Guipuzcoa province has signed San Sebastian-Irun with another number


----------



## verreme

Eulanthe said:


> Thanks! That explains why there were two petrol stations at that roundabout, because it would have made sense to have them on entry/exit from the AP-7.
> 
> I found something fascinating on Av. del Cid in Valencia - Google Maps - this sign was removed between 2017-2018, but it shows Barcelona in the direction of the city centre. It must be from before the opening of the Valencia bypass, right?
> 
> Also these signs: Google Maps
> 
> Would these signs also be quite old? They've been removed between 2019 and 2021.


The signs on the first link were really old! Definitely older than 1992. As for the ones on the second link, they can be later. Valencia signs motorways everywhere around the city and the easiest way to Barcelona from that location is obviously V-21, with or without the bypass.


----------



## SeñorGol

sponge_bob said:


> Was it signed A1, once, maybe in the 1980s and then downgraded by the Basque region later???


It was never signed A-1, and I don't think it ever will. The provincial government of Gipuzkoa wants people to use AP-1 because they invested a lot of money there. Also they refuse to improve the southbound carriageway of the Etzegarate pass.

That's why all signs show Vitoria and Burgos via AP-1, while N-I show just smaller towns like Lasarte-Oria or Tolosa. So if you aren't familiar with it and just follow the signs to the bigger cities, you'll always end up in the tolled AP-1.


















^^ This one is ridiculous. You can get to Vitoria via N-I but the signs tell you to go back north to San Sebastián and then take AP-8 and AP-1.









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com












Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## Little

Little said:


> No, its 1 km back. They started the exit lane before the Nonaya’s bridge


A photo took today, you can see both the signal on the place of the inauguration and the landslide on the back.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

3 nuevos kilómetros de Supersur en 3 minutos


El tramo final de la autopista que conectará con la AP-68 se abrirá en seis meses ya se puede recorrer en uno de sus sentidos




www.deia.eus





A gallery of the 3 kilometer AP-8 segment which is under construction at Bilbao. It will link the Supersur bypass directly to AP-68. It's a rather extensive project, pretty much everything is in tunnels or on bridges.

An opening in April 2023 has been announced as well.


----------



## SeñorGol

New traffic signs, to be implemented next year

































































This 19-century-style camera remains the same though
















Las nuevas señales de tráfico que prepara la DGT para 2023


El trenecito que parece del siglo XIX y que avisa, en una señal de peligro, de la proximidad de un paso a nivel sin barreras abandonará antes o después las carreteras. En su lugar, la misma amenaza la simbolizará una locomotora de alta velocidad que mira de frente al conductor. Las nuevas...




motor.elpais.com





PDF: https://www.interior.gob.es/opencms...6_2022_Borrador_Tomo_I_Definicion_senales.pdf


----------



## verreme

I love the multi-lane rounda


SeñorGol said:


> New traffic signs, to be implemented next year
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PDF: https://www.interior.gob.es/opencms...6_2022_Borrador_Tomo_I_Definicion_senales.pdf


Love this! Multi-lane roundabouts are very abundant in Spain and signage is always unclear. Many drivers do not know how to navigate them and this leads to countless accidents among those who use the left lane to turn left and those who only use the right lane.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wasn't there a rule that you are not allowed to exit from an inner lane on a multi-lane roundabout?


----------



## SeñorGol

The rule exists, but many people just don't obey it


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Generalitat de Catalunya has paid the bill to take over the concession of Cedinsa, which operates the C-25 'Eix Transversal' motorway (153 km) under a shadow toll concession. This concession ends on 1 January 2023, meaning the shadow toll payments also end at that date.

It was decided in May 2022 to use € 479 million out of a budget surplus to pay off Cedinsa and end the concession. This means that the government (generalitat) doesn't have to keep paying shadow tolls until the original end of the concession in 2040.

They calculated the cost saving at € 781.5 million, however the maintenance burden of C-25 will now increase every year since the four lane project was completed in 2013 and the original asphalt surface is approaching the end of its service life. This is why concessions usually run for about 30 years, to include several cycles of regular maintenance, and pay the upfront cost back over a period of 30 years.









La Generalitat recupera la gestión directa del Eix Transversal y se ahorra 781,5 millones de euros


La Generalitat de Catalunya recuperará la gestión de la autovía C-25 (Eix Transversal) a partir del 2023.




www.elnacional.cat





C-25 was originally built as a super two highway in the 1990s, it opened in 12 phases between 1993 and 1997. It runs through the foothills of the Pyrenees. As many high-speed two-lane roads, this road also had a poor traffic safety record. It was decided pretty quickly to expand the entire route to a 2x2 autovía. A concession was awarded to Cedinsa in 2007 to execute this project, which was completed in 2013.

The concession allowed extremely fast construction of such a large project: 153 kilometers were expanded in 6 years time, which could've taken decades under conventional funding and procurement (just look at any other autovía project that is funded conventionally).


----------



## Little

ChrisZwolle said:


> Wasn't there a rule that you are not allowed to exit from an inner lane on a multi-lane roundabout?


There is not such rule. In Spain you can go forward within the lane that better fits your way. 

It exists one that forbid driving from right lane to turn left which is the cause of the malfunctioning of roundabouts in Spain.


----------



## Little

SeñorGol said:


> The rule exists, but many people just don't obey it


This video must be presented to court to retire the licence to the “police”. There is no rule on the law to support all the ideas that this video pretend to make good.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Little said:


> There is not such rule. In Spain you can go forward within the lane that better fits your way.


What about this?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402528681449426947


----------



## alserrod

According to Heraldo there's a new delay on A-22 in Huesca

Nevertheless, Heraldo says November 202 and I had written in another post March 2024









El último tramo de la autovía Huesca-Lérida suma otro sobrecoste y se resiente por la lentitud de las obras


El Ministerio, que ha aprobado un segundo modificado de casi 5 millones de euros, solo gastó hasta el mes de septiembre un 14% de lo previsto inicialmente en la A-22




www.heraldo.es


----------



## verreme

Little said:


> This video must be presented to court to retire the licence to the “police”. There is no rule on the law to support all the ideas that this video pretend to make good.


See? Every time someone mentions multi-lane roundabouts we have a debate about them, because the rules aren't clear. Not even the authorities seem to agree. When I passed my driving test, my instructor told me to use the left lane when turning left; I later discovered that friends of mine were told otherwise.

I would appreciate lane-specific signage to be a common thing, like it is in the UK or Germany. Road markings would also help.


----------



## Little

ChrisZwolle said:


> What about this?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402528681449426947


This is a graphic which contains a lot of errors and none of them are mentioned in the law, which is necessary to be complimented by people. Neither DGT neither the police are allowed by the constitution to have an opinion. And this is the opinion of DGT, which is against the law.

Reasons, you can’t enter into the roundabout when other vehicle is inside. The upper right sector “invites” people to do so, when the blue car is doing correctly even when the red car is there. It’s not my opinion, many drivers behave this way since the publication of the graphic.

You don’t have any rule on law which says in which lane you have to exit an intersection. Saying that you have to exit by the right lane it’s only an opinion, and that’s again , unlawful.

At least in Spain in cities you are allowed to use any lane in intersections, if not stated another thing. In Spain, roundabouts usually don’t state another thing.

Finally, in terms of construction, a roundabout can’t have more lanes that the streets entering them. If the roundabout needs a third lane, at least one entry must have a third lane created in the meters before the entry.


----------



## SeñorGol

verreme said:


> See? Every time someone mentions multi-lane roundabouts we have a debate about them, because the rules aren't clear. Not even the authorities seem to agree. When I passed my driving test, my instructor told me to use the left lane when turning left; I later discovered that friends of mine were told otherwise.
> 
> I would appreciate lane-specific signage to be a common thing, like it is in the UK or Germany. Road markings would also help.


Same when I passed my _car_ driving test.

However, when I passed my *motorbike* driving test, my instructor told me to always use the rightmost lane, so that people could see me better and whatever exit I wanted to take I'd be always ready


----------



## Stuu

SeñorGol said:


> New traffic signs, to be implemented next year


Bit surprised they are changing the train one, of course there aren't any steam trains but surely no one alive can be unaware what this means?









And they have made a big mistake here, the pedestrian should be staring at his/her phone, if they are bothering to update it


----------



## g.spinoza

SeñorGol said:


> Same when I passed my _car_ driving test.
> 
> However, when I passed my *motorbike* driving test, my instructor told me to always use the rightmost lane, so that people could see me better and whatever exit I wanted to take I'd be always ready


And be regularly hit by drivers who use the innermost lane and go straight, given that they - understandably - think you would exit at the first junction.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A quick drone video of A-334 (Autovía del Almanzora) in Almería province.

The progress seems good, but the A-7 interchange has a long way to go.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1591718385632661504


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I was driving near Granada last year, my in-car GPS did not have the new bypass mapped yet.











A-44 Bailén - Motril 111 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was driving near Granada last year, my in-car GPS did not have the new bypass mapped yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A-44 Bailén - Motril 111 by European Roads, on Flickr


But yet, it knows its speed limit


----------



## ChrisZwolle

AP-7 near Tarragona has probably the only rest area in the world with a Roman aqueduct. It was built circa 2,000 years ago. There is direct access from the rest area to the aqueduct, it's only a 3 minute walk.


AP-7 Les Ferreres Aqueduct 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


AP-7 Les Ferreres Aqueduct 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


Les Ferreres Aqueduct 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Les Ferreres Aqueduct 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


Les Ferreres Aqueduct 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> AP-7 near Tarragona has probably the only rest area in the world with a Roman aqueduct. It was built circa 2,000 years ago. There is direct access from the rest area to the aqueduct, it's only a 3 minute walk.
> 
> 
> AP-7 Les Ferreres Aqueduct 01 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> AP-7 Les Ferreres Aqueduct 03 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Les Ferreres Aqueduct 02 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Les Ferreres Aqueduct 04 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Les Ferreres Aqueduct 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


Wonderful.
In Italy there is a dolmen, accessible from a rest area on the A14, and an important Roman site (Luni) from a rest area on the A12.


----------



## alserrod

Hi Chris, I am a really enthusiastic of Roman engineering.
Wanna drive under another Roman aqueduct?

Just near Pamplona, N-121 drives southbound, AP-15 drives northbound and this little road crosses in the middle









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





Well.... in the middle, in the middle... that's railway

Alvia Madrid-Pamplona, most of Barcelona-somewhere in the North or North-west and regionals Zaragoza-Pamplona cross in that point


----------



## alserrod

and news relating N-232 in Morella, those 5 km missing in N-232 are going on






Mitma aprueba el proyecto para mejorar el trazado de la carretera N-232 entre Masía de la Torreta y Morella, donde se invertirán cerca de 19 millones de euros | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.gob.es













El Ministerio da luz verde al trazado de la segunda parte de las obras de la N-232 en Morella


Con una inversión de 18,7 millones de euros se completará el último tramo de la carretera N-232 que queda por acondicionar en la provincia de Castellón después de la mejora del Puerto de Querol




www.lacomarca.net


----------



## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> Hi Chris, I am a really enthusiastic of Roman engineering.
> Wanna drive under another Roman aqueduct?
> 
> Just near Pamplona, N-121 drives southbound, AP-15 drives northbound and this little road crosses in the middle


Sorry to rain on your parade, but that aqueduct was built in 1790, so nothing Roman about it.



https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acueducto_de_No%C3%A1in


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## ChrisZwolle

I've noticed that many such structures in Spain are called Roman but date from the 18th century. Maybe it's a generic name in Spanish because it looks like the historic Roman arch bridges / aqueducts.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've noticed that many such structures in Spain are called Roman but date from the 18th century. Maybe it's a generic name in Spanish because it looks like the historic Roman arch bridges / aqueducts.


They should more correctly be called Neo-Romanic (as Romanic already indicates a style that was used during the Middle Ages).


----------



## Reivajar

"Roman" was a generic adjective used popularly in many places due to the lack of certain knowledge. Somehow, old (i.e., whose origin has been forgotten), well built and well-design structures for local standards used to receive this name in many places, whether they were built in the Middle Ages, during the Renaissance, or really during the Antiquity or Late Antiquity. The perspective of history back in the 1600s, particularly in rural areas, was rather different to how we understand it now.


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## alserrod

1st, I was really wrong with the Aqueduct
2nd, bonus, not an aqueduct but a Roman dam with a current road in the middle. 

It was built in the 1st century, it just worked for two centuries as a dam and some extra uses in the Arabic era. Nowadays it is just a (very unknown) monument
The road to the small bridge crosses in the middle. It has barely traffic

AFAIK it is the bigges Roman dam in Iberia









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> 1st, I was really wrong with the Aqueduct
> 2nd, bonus, not an aqueduct but a Roman dam with a current road in the middle.
> 
> It was built in the 1st century, it just worked for two centuries as a dam and some extra uses in the Arabic era. Nowadays it is just a (very unknown) monument
> The road to the small bridge crosses in the middle. It has barely traffic
> 
> AFAIK it is the bigges Roman dam in Iberia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


Very interesting.
I didn't know anything about Roman dams.


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## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> Very interesting.
> I didn't know anything about Roman dams.



There aren't so many (one Roman dam, more than a century aqueducts). Water was strongly important for Romans but there wasn't so many population as today, thus no need to have so many reservoirs.

This is second Roman dam in my region (but this one is not in a road)









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## alserrod

Another Roman Aqueduct near a road

Romans build an aqueduct from Albarracin (7 km after the city) to Cella, joining Turia and Jiloca rivers.

I hasn't water-bridges but it as other ones but it was a long ditch plus part of it as a tunnel (near Cella)

There are parts strongly easy to visit from a road

Just point satellite view in this A-1512 image









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





The ditch you will see just north of the road was built by Romans

More info in wikipedia (I am afraid, not in English)



https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acueducto_romano_de_Albarrac%C3%ADn-Cella


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## ChrisZwolle

A poster of AG-22 in Galicia. They have now reconstructed the existing roadway to proper motorway layout, it opens to traffic today.


----------



## arctic_carlos

The Aranda de Duero bypass (A-11) will be extended a few km to the west to connect it directly with N-122 towards Valladolid.






Mitma aprueba el proyecto de construcción para mejorar la conexión de la A-11 con la N-122 en Castrillo de la Vega donde se invertirán más de 18 millones de euros | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.gob.es





This means of course that A-11 between Quintanilla de Arriba and Castrillo de las Vega won’t be built anytime soon. A-11 between Tudela de Duero and Quintanilla de Arriba has been under construction for quite some time, but I guess it won’t open to traffic until 2024/25 (works are advancing very slowly).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Utebo is the town of three parallel motorways. 

N-232 has been duplicated and partially built to motorway standards. I'm not sure when this occured, but I found a plan / project referring to a N-232 duplication between Zaragoza and Alagón in 1967 and 1969, so it may have been built in the 1970s. 

N-232 was later bypassed by AP-68 (opened 1978) to the north and by A-68 (opened 1992) to the south. However N-232 was never downgraded, until now.









La N-232 en Utebo se convertirá en una avenida urbana


El Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana invertirá 6,2 millones de euros en la operación, que pretende aumentar la seguridad y eliminar las barreras de paso para los peatones




www.elperiodicodearagon.com


----------



## alserrod

Utebo bypass opened in December 1993 to be accurate. I remember crossing it just some weeks after opening.

We could say N-232 bypassed Utebo but it crossed by the middle to Casetas.

From Zaragoza to Figueruelas it had only two bridges!!!!. The rest of them were cross in the same level. Alagon was the third one (about 1990).
Last ones dissapeared on 2012 or so.


----------



## sponge_bob

Erjos Tunnel breakthrough in Tenerife is expected next summer with a completed road in 2024. 









Robots have now drilled 60% of the new tunnel to complete the Tenerife ring road


The new tunnel will be one of the longest in Europe and will link the north and south of the island...




www.canarianweekly.com


----------



## CNGL

Up to this day the section of A-68 between the end of the Casetas bypass and where the dual carriageway used to end isn't considered a motorway. For this reason I decided to refer to this section as N-232.


----------



## CNGL

So by chance I came across the log of all Aragonese regional roads. They must have put it online recently, because it wasn't there before. This confirms A-129 ends in Sariñena (no continuation beyond as many maps claim), gives the reason why A-2404 starts up seemingly randomly (A-68 is planned to cross at this point), and also lists several roads classed at the turn of the century but they haven't gotten control of yet (A-2201, A-2222, A-2610 and A-2616; all of which are still provincial roads; the Province of Huesca already ceded the roads now known as A-2202, A-2206 and A-2615 in 2010). I've noticed A-2412 and A-2413, both short roads in the Northeast of the Province of Teruel, have been deleted; and that the 74 metre section of C-1311 in Aragon is listed as A-1607.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An elevated roundabout was recently put into service on A-67 in the Port of Santander, near the northern terminus of the motorway.


----------



## alserrod

A-1605 is a nice local Aragonese road near Pyrenees. I recommend you to drive in early Autumn to have best roadscapes but, nevertheless, all the year is perfect.

You will cross besides some stunning monuments. Capella bridge (best Middle Age bridge in a huge area), Obarra monastery, some nice villages and.... of course Roda cathedral (a 40 people village had a bishop for near 200 years and the "church" remains as cathedral, always beautiful) and of course .... Obarra gorge.

But today wasn't best day to drive in Obarra gorge, at least to drive alone and peaceful.

Since yesterday, N-260 is closed between Campo and Castejon. It requires a detour via Isabena valley
and today... N-230 was closed near Sopeira and requires a detour via Isabena valley too!!

Google maps points somewhere of heavy traffic in the valley (when it has barely traffic among all the year)









Un desprendimiento corta la N-230 en Sopeira


Los vehículos son desviados en Puente de Montaña hacia el norte y, desde Pont de Suert, hacia el sur




www.diariodelaltoaragon.es


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## ChrisZwolle

N-523 in Extremadura is cut due to a flash flood washing out a culvert (classic road damage scenario). This is between Cáceres and Badajoz.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602612277202534405


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Raquel Sánchez anuncia la puesta en servicio del tramo Valls-Montblanc de la autovía A-27 en menos de un año | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





The extension of A-27 between Valls and Montblanc (Tarragona province) will be completed in 'less than a year'.

While this seems like it is nearing completion, it's likely another delay for this project.

Construction originally began in 2009 but was stopped due to the economic crisis in July 2010. 

Works were restarted in May 2017 (the tunnel in February 2019) and was then scheduled to be completed by early 2022. This was then moved up to early 2023, but the fact that they don't mention that now leads me to believe that it will take a while before A-27 is completed, not in early 2023 as previously thought.

Spain has serious problems with funding and executing road projects nowadays. Virtually every project is completed years behind schedule, and I think the lack of funding allocated to projects that are under construction has become a pervasive problem. 

There are a number of remaining motorways to be constructed, some have a higher priority than others but even the higher priority projects are in a continuous state of delay. The government is not delivering these projects as they used to.


----------



## verreme

^^ What you point out is unfortunately true, though for this section in particular the project had to be changed due to unexpected issues with the soil. IIRC the AVE railway through this area had similar problems.

The project of the last section to connect Tarragona with AP-2 (Valls-Montblanc) is now being done and a tender for works should follow. I guess we'll have more information about it when Túnel de Lilla finally opens to traffic.


----------



## arctic_carlos

ChrisZwolle said:


> Raquel Sánchez anuncia la puesta en servicio del tramo Valls-Montblanc de la autovía A-27 en menos de un año | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mitma.es
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The extension of A-27 between Valls and Montblanc (Tarragona province) will be completed in 'less than a year'.
> 
> While this seems like it is nearing completion, it's likely another delay for this project.
> 
> Construction originally began in 2009 but was stopped due to the economic crisis in July 2010.
> 
> Works were restarted in May 2017 (the tunnel in February 2019) and was then scheduled to be completed by early 2022. This was then moved up to early 2023, but the fact that they don't mention that now leads me to believe that it will take a while before A-27 is completed, not in early 2023 as previously thought.
> 
> Spain has serious problems with funding and executing road projects nowadays. Virtually every project is completed years behind schedule, and I think the lack of funding allocated to projects that are under construction has become a pervasive problem.
> 
> There are a number of remaining motorways to be constructed, some have a higher priority than others but even the higher priority projects are in a continuous state of delay. The government is not delivering these projects as they used to.


However, more than 650 million euros will be spent in burying a railway line in Montcada i Reixac (a suburb of Barcelona with 20,000 inhabitants), just because its residents don’t like to have trains on the surface and blame the railway line for all the casualties resulting from people crossing the tracks where it’s forbidden (there’s a level crossing which could be removed for a much smaller cost).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A-32 news:






El Gobierno autoriza licitar las obras del enlace CM-313-Balazote Oeste de la autovía A-32 por más de 94 millones de euros | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





The Council of Ministers has approved the tender for the construction of 16.8 km of A-32 in the Balazote area (from CM-313 to east of Balazote). This seems to be the next segment to start construction.

The 17.2 km segment of A-32 between Villacarrillo and Villanueva del Arzobispo will be put into service in the coming days.


----------



## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> A-32 news:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El Gobierno autoriza licitar las obras del enlace CM-313-Balazote Oeste de la autovía A-32 por más de 94 millones de euros | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mitma.es
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Council of Ministers has approved the tender for the construction of 16.8 km of A-32 in the Balazote area (from CM-313 to east of Balazote). This seems to be the next segment to start construction.
> 
> The 17.2 km segment of A-32 between Villacarrillo and Villanueva del Arzobispo will be put into service in the coming days.


They are finally attacking the Jardín river stretch. This is a painful drive. West of there N-322 is okay, there are many bypasses and grade-separated intersections.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> The 17.2 km segment of A-32 between Villacarrillo and Villanueva del Arzobispo will be put into service in the coming days.


Scheduled for tomorrow: Raquel Sánchez preside la puesta en servicio del tramo entre Villacarrillo y Villanueva del Arzobispo de la A-32 | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> Scheduled for tomorrow: Raquel Sánchez preside la puesta en servicio del tramo entre Villacarrillo y Villanueva del Arzobispo de la A-32 | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana


I have driven along some of the N322, it was deserted. I just had a look at the traffic figures and some segments get down to 1000 vpd, even this section only carries around 4000. Fairly astonishing that an autovia is justified, Spain really is a different world


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## ChrisZwolle

The 17.2 km segment of A-32 between Villacarrillo and Villanueva del Arzobispo has been inaugurated today:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1605980116252626950
This is the final stage of a project that was actually started in 2009 to construct A-32 from Linares to Villanueva del Arzobispo. These contracts were canceled in 2010 as a response to the financial crisis. So it eventually took 13 years to complete this.

The ministry says that they plan to put two additional segments out to tender by late 2023, from Villanueva del Arzobispo to Beas de Segura, and from Beas de Segura to Arroyo del Ojanco.


edit: a couple of photos:


----------



## verreme

Stuu said:


> I have driven along some of the N322, it was deserted. I just had a look at the traffic figures and some segments get down to 1000 vpd, even this section only carries around 4000. Fairly astonishing that an autovia is justified, Spain really is a different world


Remember that these motorways through such sparsely-populated regions are extremely cheap to build, so you get the same cost-benefit ratio than the average, let's say, French or German motorway.


----------



## sponge_bob

verreme said:


> Remember that these motorways through such sparsely-populated regions are extremely cheap to build, so you get the same cost-benefit ratio than the average, let's say, French or German motorway.


I remember in the 2000s that Spain could build meseta motorways for €2m a km but the A-32 that just went into service cost €87m or more like €5m a km. It is still pretty cheap at that price but if traffic is really only 4k AADT a half profile would be enough.


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## verreme

sponge_bob said:


> I remember in the 2000s that Spain could build meseta motorways for €2m a km but the A-32 that just went into service cost €87m or more like €5m a km. It is still pretty cheap at that price but if traffic is really only 4k AADT a half profile would be enough.


High-standard half-profile roads are not half as expensive, and they are notoriously unsafe. This has been proven many times across Spain. I don't believe building a full-profile motorway is a waste of money.


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## ChrisZwolle

Here's a video detailing the A-32 project. They also say that current N-roads have problems with agricultural traffic. But building service roads everywhere has a low cost/benefit ratio compared to an autovía upgrade.

A problem with N-roads which still carry long-distance traffic is that road users are more likely to engage in risky behavior (dangerous passing). Drivers are more willing to take chances if they know they have another 80 or 150 kilometers to go on such a road. These type of roads are usually the most dangerous roads.

Other projects of N-roads in Spain show that motorways are not that much more expensive compared to N-road upgrades. This is a hugely different factor in almost all other parts of Europe.


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## sponge_bob

There is a study looking at converting the N430 gap between motorways, 200km+ of it from Ciudad Real to near Badajoz, into a 2+1 .One of the few strategic gaps left in the Spanish network, along with the A11, as it also allows traffic to completely bypass Madrid on long journeys.









Transportes abre la puerta a que la N-430 sea autovía


El Ministerio destina dos millones a tener un proyecto para que la nacional tenga tres carriles, nudos de acceso y variantes y que, de ser necesario, «obtener una sección 2+2»




www.latribunadeciudadreal.es


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## Stuu

verreme said:


> Remember that these motorways through such sparsely-populated regions are extremely cheap to build, so you get the same cost-benefit ratio than the average, let's say, French or German motorway.


True but lots of the existing road is already pretty good and often grade-separated, and more than capable of carrying 4,000 vehicles per day. I would like to see the cost benefit ratio


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## verreme

Stuu said:


> True but lots of the existing road is already pretty good and often grade-separated, and more than capable of carrying 4,000 vehicles per day. I would like to see the cost benefit ratio


In this particular case (A-32), part of the stretch that was recently opened was a duplication of a grade-separated bypass. Half of it was a greenfield bypass of a village the road went through.

This is quite an exception, though. Most "carreteras nacionales" are not grade-separated. Existing bypasses often make for one carriageway of new motorways (i.e. A-68 Fuentes de Ebro) which drives the cost even lower.

Of course, this is not the only reason why Spain has more motorways than all other European countries. Road construction in Spain has been, for a variety of reasons, one of the main motors of the national economy since the Franco regime opened up to foreign markets in the 1960s. In a roundabout way, local politicians lobby strongly for new roads in their region and turn them into a campaign point, as the central Government is always eager to spend money in road construction.

And there are many other reasons we could discuss. The low cost is obviously not the only reason why Spain builds so many roads. By no means I'm defending this approach -just explaining it.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Spanish geography also explains it. Unlike Italy or the UK, most larger cities cannot be connected by just a small number of corridors. This is how it started in the late 1980s by duplicating the radial routes. This resulted in very large parts of the country being far from the motorways, and most cities were only connected to Madrid, i.e. a centralized system but not an actual interlinked system where all larger cities are connected to each other by direct motorway routes. 

Even today, with Spain having the largest motorway network of Europe, there are still very large areas without motorways. Not all of them would need one, but these gaps between motorways are quite large compared to most of the rest of Western Europe. 

France, for the same reason, has built an almost as large motorway & expressway network to cover all its major towns and cities. 

Spain has the benefit of having the lowest construction cost in Europe. It seems like Spain is spending lavishly on roads, but in fact its road budget is really not that big, especially in relation to the 26,000 kilometer national road system (_Red de Carreteras del Estado_). Spain has been spending more on railways than the national road system for almost 20 years now.


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## ChrisZwolle

MITMA launched a number of tenders today;

A-73 Quintanaortuño - Montorio (11.5 km): € 126.9 million. 





Mitma licita por 126,9 millones de euros las obras de un nuevo tramo de la autovía A-73 entre Quintanaortuño y Montorio | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





A-11 near Castrillo de la Vega (2.4 km): € 18.1 million. 





Mitma licita por 18,1 millones de euros las obras de mejora de la conexión de la A-11 con la N-122 en las proximidades de Castrillo de la Vega | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es





A-32 CM-313 - Balazote-oeste (16.8 km): € 113.2 million. 





Mitma licita por 113,25 millones de euros las obras del tramo de autovía A-32 entre el enlace con la CM-313 y Balazote Oeste | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana







www.mitma.es


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## alserrod

A-21 in Jaca bypass option north has been released by a Court









La variante de Jaca salva el último escollo judicial y deja vía libre al Ministerio para licitar las obras


La Audiencia Nacional rechaza el recurso de la Asociación Jaca sin Perder el Norte y avala la declaración medioambiental. Los PGE tienen una partida de 2,5 millones y podría haber máquinas a mediados de 2023.




www.heraldo.es


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## ChrisZwolle

Drone photos of the recently six laned V-21 at Valencia.

































Inaugurado el primer carril Bus-VAO de Valencia y terceros carriles en la autovía V-21 – OHLA







ohla-group.com


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## verreme

^^ The leftmost inbound lane will be used as an HOV lane, the first of its kind in the Valencia metro area, between Massalfassar and Valencia.


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