# MISC | Highest Railway in the World (photo thread)



## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)

The world's highest railway,a trip to Shangri-la



> The line includes the Tanggula Pass, which, at 5,072 m (16,640 feet) above sea level, is the world's highest rail track. The 1,338 m Fenghuoshan tunnel is the highest rail tunnel in the world at 4,905 m above sea level. The 4,010-m Guanjiao tunnel is the longest tunnel from Xining to Golmod and the 3,345-m Yangbajing tunnel is the longest tunnel from Golmod to Lhasa. More than 960 km, or over 80% of the Golmud-Lhasa section, is at an altitude of more than 4,000 m. There are 675 bridges, totalling 159.88 km, and about 550 km of the railway is laid on permafrost.
> 
> The trains are specially built for high altitude environment. and the carriages are specially built and have an oxygen supply for each passenger.
> 
> ...


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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)




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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)




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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)




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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)




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## mopc (Jan 31, 2005)

Fantastic!


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

I would love to ride this railway some day 


This on is fake, BTW:


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## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

To be honest, I'm not at all a fan of this railroad.


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## particlez (May 5, 2008)

^to be honest, why should anyone care what you think?

or are you going to ape what you've heard in the media, and say a railroad is akin to colonialization?


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## ir desi (Dec 9, 2007)

To be honest, why should anyone care whether YOU care? People come here not only to gather information but to express opinions, and you ought not cry and scream when they aren't your own.


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## binhai (Dec 22, 2006)

They should make it 350km/h double track CRH HSR, currently it takes too long to go from Beijing to Lhasa, almost two full days!


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## 2co2co (Apr 8, 2008)

Are these pressurized compartments?


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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)

> The world’s highest railway line boasts high-tech engineering and luxurious pressurized train cars are used to help passengers cope with high altitude.


according to the reports,yes.if they are pressurized then they are more like airplanes than train cars.lol


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Impressive Canadian engineering meets spectacular Chinese scenery!


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## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

To be honest, I don't like it because (as you can see in the pics) it destroys a incredibly beautiful and unique landscape. It's not about colonization in the first place because unfortunately it's happening anyway although the railway will speed things up. Lhasa has become a city that looks just like any other Chinese city nowadays which is a shame imo. Btw. I'm not talking about what I've heard in the media, but you shouldn't bother.


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## octopusop (Feb 10, 2009)

2co2co said:


> Are these pressurized compartments?


Not pressurized, but with oxygen generator.

http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/中国铁路25T型客车


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## octopusop (Feb 10, 2009)

Some europeans are enjoying their high quality material life, at the same time, they hope Africans and Tibetans living as monkeys in zoo without any rights of developing in the name of cultural diversity .

Who can tell me why these europeans are so pretentious, hypocritical and extremely selfish self-centered?


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## YelloPerilo (Oct 17, 2003)

thun said:


> To be honest, I don't like it because (as you can see in the pics) it destroys a incredibly beautiful and unique landscape. It's not about colonization in the first place because unfortunately it's happening anyway although the railway will speed things up. Lhasa has become a city that looks just like any other Chinese city nowadays which is a shame imo. Btw. I'm not talking about what I've heard in the media, but you shouldn't bother.


Tibet province is about 3.5 times a big as Germany and there is only one railway connecting this poor and backward region with the more advanced regions of the whole country.

What is your proposal to improve the economic and cultural life of this region? How should this region be modernised? Or do you think Tibet province should stay in the past like an open air museum to please your curiosity of "exotism"?


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## He Named Thor (Feb 15, 2008)

Fantastic photos! About how much does this trip cost, and how long does it take? 


The locomotives are American by the way. They are built by General Electric.


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## octopusop (Feb 10, 2009)

He Named Thor said:


> Fantastic photos! About how much does this trip cost, and how long does it take?
> 
> 
> The locomotives are American by the way. They are built by General Electric.


Beijing-Lhasa Train# T27, 44h 34m, 4064km. Train fares: hard seat CNY389(US$62), hard sleeper lower berth CNY813, soft sleeper lower berth CNY1262. Hard sleeper middle/upper berth and soft sleeper upper berth are little cheaper than lower berth, i don't know the exact price.
http://www.seat61.com/China.htm


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## interesting monster (Feb 8, 2008)

Who makes the rolling stock, anyone know?


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## octopusop (Feb 10, 2009)

interesting monster said:


> Who makes the rolling stock, anyone know?


I have answered this question on #16 post of this thread.
first 361 cars made by Bombardier-Sifang-Power(Bombardier-Sifang now).
http://en.bsp.cn/docc/QZKC-YZ.asp

Another rolling stocks were made by Puzhen rolling stock, Tangshan rolling stock, and Changchun rolling stock.


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## maldini (Jul 5, 2003)

YelloPerilo said:


> Tibet province is about 3.5 times a big as Germany and there is only one railway connecting this poor and backward region with the more advanced regions of the whole country.
> 
> What is your proposal to improve the economic and cultural life of this region? How should this region be modernised? Or do you think Tibet province should stay in the past like an open air museum to please your curiosity of "exotism"?


These Europeans do not have any plans at all. They forgot that they colonized North America, Australia, New Zealand etc


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## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

Hm. Maybe the country wouldn't have needed Chinese "help" to develop their culture the way they want?  But there's really no point to try to "discuss" this topic with you yp, we both know that. 
It's not about being pretentious, it's about the right of people to decide for themselves what they want. Which Tibetans weren't able to do in the last 50 years and unfortunately won't be able to do in the near future either, obviously. There's a reason behind their protests in 2008.
So its not about how and why Europeans "civilised" the world (which I think wasn't the right thing either), there are more than 100 years of development between. You can be pretty sure that Europeans wouldn't have occupied other countries that way in the 1950ies.


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## corredor06 (Oct 13, 2008)

looks like a great trip


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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)

tibet is part of china long before europeans knew there were americas.do some research before try to claim moral high ground.but one thing that you are right,it is not the place that political issues should be disscussed about.so,please...


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## octopusop (Feb 10, 2009)

thun said:


> Hm. Maybe the country wouldn't have needed Chinese "help" to develop their culture the way they want?  But there's really no point to try to "discuss" this topic with you yp, we both know that.
> It's not about being pretentious, it's about the right of people to decide for themselves what they want. Which Tibetans weren't able to do in the last 50 years and unfortunately won't be able to do in the near future either, obviously. There's a reason behind their protests in 2008.
> So its not about how and why Europeans "civilised" the world (which I think wasn't the right thing either), there are more than 100 years of development between. You can be pretty sure that Europeans wouldn't have occupied other countries that way in the 1950ies.


It seems that you :speech: are the representitive of Tibetans. :tongue: :tongue:
Did you know the really thought of Tibetans?


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## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

xizhimen said:


> tibet is part of china long before europeans knew there were americas.do some research before try to claim moral high ground


Well, that's not completely true. Tibet was autonomous under Chinese protection for thousands of years. In the 50ies China ended that status by invading and forcing the Tibetan government to go into exile, and started to destroy systematically the Tibetan culture (the cultureal revolution which fortunately didn't succeed in the rest of China, too). Hardly an glorious aid to modernize another people, imo. It doesn't matter that it's the Cinese in this case or someone else in another case. It's wrong in any case to take autonomous decision power from someone else.
I don't claim moral high ground, I use my right of opinion and my right to express it. So deal with it!. If you're not able to do so it's not my problem at all.


And now, lets go btt and talk about this uber-awesome railway you guys have there. :lol:


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## sarflonlad (May 13, 2005)

How about sticking to the fantastic engineering feat that is this railway?

The Chinese don't get western political viewpoints and the fact westerners by and large, don't suffer from the phenomenon of keeping face. And the westerners don't get chinese political viewpoints and are generally ignorant about how easy it is to bring shame and break face with the Chinese on sensitive matters like these.


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## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

^^
:applause:


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## YelloPerilo (Oct 17, 2003)

thun said:


> Hm. Maybe the country wouldn't have needed Chinese "help" to develop their culture the way they want?  But there's really no point to try to "discuss" this topic with you yp, we both know that.


Wich country does not need help from China? Iraq or Afghanistan? Tibet hasn't been a country since the 13th century.



thun said:


> It's not about being pretentious, it's about the right of people to decide for themselves what they want. Which Tibetans weren't able to do in the last 50 years and unfortunately won't be able to do in the near future either, obviously. There's a reason behind their protests in 2008.


Who do you mean by Tibetans? The small thoecratic clique made of slave owners or the vast majority made of slaves and serf?

There is always a good reason to commit terrorist acts, particularly if they are financed and supported by the "free and demobcratic" "West".



thun said:


> So its not about how and why Europeans "civilised" the world (which I think wasn't the right thing either), there are more than 100 years of development between. You can be pretty sure that Europeans wouldn't have occupied other countries that way in the 1950ies.


Of course Europeans wouldn't occupy other countries like they did before. Their last attempt failed miserably in Vietnam. Freedom and demobcrazy is a much better excuse. Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan where destruction and death happens on a daily basis.



thun said:


> Well, that's not completely true. Tibet was autonomous under Chinese protection for thousands of years. In the 50ies China ended that status by invading and forcing the Tibetan government to go into exile, and started to destroy systematically the Tibetan culture (the cultureal revolution which fortunately didn't succeed in the rest of China, too). Hardly an glorious aid to modernize another people, imo. It doesn't matter that it's the Cinese in this case or someone else in another case. It's wrong in any case to take autonomous decision power from someone else.


Oh yeah, systematic destruction of the Tibetan culture by raising the literacy of the Tibetan language from merely 5% to over 50%, abolishing slavery, serfdom and an inhuman caste system. All these acts truly are hindering natural human progress.



thun said:


> I don't claim moral high ground, I use my right of opinion and my right to express it. So deal with it!. If you're not able to do so it's not my problem at all.


As your opinion is not based on historical facts, what is your opinion based on? If you don't base your opinion on moral high ground then your opinion has no positive contribution of a matter. In that case you might as well shut up, no?


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## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

YelloPerilo said:


> Wich country does not need help from China? Iraq or Afghanistan? Tibet hasn't been a country since the 13th century.


Your point being? Btw., of course Tibet wasn't a country before the 17th century. Neither was China. Why? Because our modern understanding of how to define a country started to develop in the 17th century. 




> Who do you mean by Tibetans? The small thoecratic clique made of slave owners or the vast majority made of slaves and serf?
> 
> There is always a good reason to commit terrorist acts, particularly if they are financed and supported by the "free and demobcratic" "West".


Believe me, I knew that Tibet used to be a feudal system and I don't think that this was better. But it does never justify taking independence from a people. It needs to develop itself. According to what I know, the society was far from what one would consider Western standards, but the people accepted it and were happy with it.
It's always foreigners thinking that they would be needed to "help" the barbars. Not only in this case! hno:





> Of course Europeans wouldn't occupy other countries like they did before. Their last attempt failed miserably in Vietnam. Freedom and demobcrazy is a much better excuse. Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan where destruction and death happens on a daily basis.


Unfortunately, you're right. Except for the point about permanent occupation. And about the Europeans, it's the Americans you mainly have to blaim (in all three cases). :lol:




> Oh yeah, systematic destruction of the Tibetan culture by raising the literacy of the Tibetan language from merely 5% to over 50%, abolishing slavery, serfdom and an inhuman caste system. All these acts truly are hindering natural human progress.


No. But the systematic destruction of thousands of pieces of arts, closing down hundreds of monastries, burning down temples and monastries and putting everyone into prison who owns religious symbols certainly does. (Btw. I'm not aware of any example during European colonisation)




> As your opinion is not based on historical facts, what is your opinion based on? If you don't base your opinion on moral high ground then your opinion has no positive contribution of a matter. In that case you might as well shut up, no?


Huh? Didn't you read the previous post? It's based on what I read, know and hear about a topic - any topic. And when I feel to express it, I do so. I certainly don't have the intention to make anyone here changing his opinion. But it doesn't hinder me expressing my opinion as this is my human right. And I certainly don't judge anyone about his opinion. That's the basic rules in the West, and you, living in Hamburg, should know and understand at least the way the Western people think. If you feel. If you can't accept other people having different opinions than yours and expressing it, you shouldn't hang around a forum (where the name implies exactly this: Discussing about opinions), no? I can accept that Chinese might have a different approach to the whole issue of personal opinion, but frankly, if you're in a world-wide forum, you should do so, too.

Maybe we can go btt, finally? You havn't contributed anything to it so far.


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## YelloPerilo (Oct 17, 2003)

thun said:


> Your point being? Btw., of course Tibet wasn't a country before the 17th century. Neither was China. Why? Because our modern understanding of how to define a country started to develop in the 17th century.


Neither was Tibet a country after the 17th century. And it does not matter whether there is a country or not, as from Chinese perspective Tibet has been part and parcel of China since the Qing dynasty and no subsequent gov. ever though differently.



thun said:


> Believe me, I knew that Tibet used to be a feudal system and I don't think that this was better. But it does never justify taking independence from a people. It needs to develop itself. According to what I know, the society was far from what one would consider Western standards, but the people accepted it and were happy with it.
> It's always foreigners thinking that they would be needed to "help" the barbars. Not only in this case! hno:


If there ever was independence in Tibet at all. China and other countries never saw Tibet as an independent entity until the communist came to power. "Western" standard does not matter, unless it's ok for you to impose "western" standard on China but it's wrong to impose Chinese standard in China. Chinese don't see themselve as foreigners in China.




thun said:


> Unfortunately, you're right. Except for the point about permanent occupation. And about the Europeans, it's the Americans you mainly have to blaim (in all three cases). :lol:


Not only is the USofA Europe's master, they are also the perversion of Europe.



thun said:


> No. But the systematic destruction of thousands of pieces of arts, closing down hundreds of monastries, burning down temples and monastries and putting everyone into prison who owns religious symbols certainly does. (Btw. I'm not aware of any example during European colonisation)


The destruction happened all over China and all 56 ethnics. Don't try to project your unconscious racist thinking on China.

Of course you are not aware of European atrocities during the age of imperialism. The heathen in the colonies all conveted to Christianity voluntarily, all of them still retain their culture up to today if they were not exterminated or eke out their miserable existence in some reserves. May I remind you the destruction of Yuanmingyuan?



thun said:


> Huh? Didn't you read the previous post? It's based on what I read, know and hear about a topic - any topic. And when I feel to express it, I do so. I certainly don't have the intention to make anyone here changing his opinion. But it doesn't hinder me expressing my opinion as this is my human right. And I certainly don't judge anyone about his opinion. That's the basic rules in the West, and you, living in Hamburg, should know and understand at least the way the Western people think. If you feel. If you can't accept other people having different opinions than yours and expressing it, you shouldn't hang around a forum (where the name implies exactly this: Discussing about opinions), no? I can accept that Chinese might have a different approach to the whole issue of personal opinion, but frankly, if you're in a world-wide forum, you should do so, too.


My opinion is based on history, culture, society and ethic. Yours is based on hot air and bullshit. Of course you can say whatever you want, I reserve the right to criticise your ignorance. Fiar game, mate!



thun said:


> Maybe we can go btt, finally? You havn't contributed anything to it so far.


Neither do I see any of your contribution besides your drivel.


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## mgk920 (Apr 21, 2007)

Cut the political crap, ok?

Anyways, what is the potential for this line to be extended further south to someday connect with other countries (knowing, of course, that there will be a break in standards to address along the way).

:|

Mike


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## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

> The destruction happened all over China and all 56 ethnics.


Obviously, you can't read. I wrote above that the Cultural Revolution wasn't successful in the whole of China, fortunately. It was probably the biggest perversion of a communist regime to try to systematically destroy the historical artefacts and traditions of its own country for ideological reasons in order to create a new kind of people. :nuts:



> My opinion is based on history, culture, society and ethic. Yours is based on hot air and bullshit. Of course you can say whatever you want, I reserve the right to criticise your ignorance.


Well, we can meet there! For me, your opinion is mainly based on propaganda of the Chinese gouvernment and nothing but hot air and ignorance, too. :lol: The point is: I don't criticise you for it (because I can accept people thinking differntly), but you do so. :bash:

I think sarflonlad summed up the whole issue pretty good, don't you?

But to come btt finally:

I don't think that there's any chance for an extension to the south for both economical and geographical reasons: First of all, Nepal doesn't have the money to build a railway (and doesn't run a railway system at all so far), Bhutan doesn't want a railway as it would probably counteract their "ideology" of progress, so that leaves only India. But the more important point is that the Himalaya is too high to cut a railway line through it. And the southern ascent of the mountain range is way too steep to come up to the passes (with the passes being over 4000m on the Chinese-Nepal boarder and a drop to the Ganges valley the railway would have to master a drop of basically 4000m within a few 100kms). So I'd say it can't be done.


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## YelloPerilo (Oct 17, 2003)

thun said:


> Obviously, you can't read. I wrote above that the Cultural Revolution wasn't successful in the whole of China, fortunately. It was probably the biggest perversion of a communist regime to try to systematically destroy the historical artefacts and traditions of its own country for ideological reasons in order to create a new kind of people. :nuts:


You were the one claiming that the Chinese systematically destroyed Tibetan culture seperating the Tibetans from the 55 other ethnics of China.

Nobody in their right mind praises what happened during the cultural revolution. But you have to see that period a s a sort of Bildersturm that could happen after a revolution and China is no exception to it.



thun said:


> Well, we can meet there! For me, your opinion is mainly based on propaganda of the Chinese gouvernment and nothing but hot air and ignorance, too. :lol: The point is: I don't criticise you for it (because I can accept people thinking differntly), but you do so. :bash:


Look into the mirror, change Chinese gov. with "the West" and repeat the same sentence again!


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## particlez (May 5, 2008)

^you think the issue of tibet is exploited and manipulated? 

remember, the issue is with 'cultural genocide', something that's highlighted about tibet, but occurs everywhere.

if people are going to use the whole propagandized idiocy of cultural genocide, we should examine why we're all typing in english.

what about the various minorities of europe and how they were forcibly assimilated and/or expelled? 

what about the natives of the new world. i sure as hell know nothing about whatever tribes inhabited my neighborhood before they were miraculously wiped out.

various independence movements are championed because they serve a political purpose. the dalai lama and his ilk are given rock star status. it's akin to the US cheering on various independence movements in the former yugoslavia or the soviet union. natan sharansky, anyone? at the same time, independence movements in allied state and domestically are dismissed or ignored. 'cept many of you guys just don't get it.

what about native hawaiians who have gone through colonization, disenfranchisement, and now have bits of their culture marketed as hula dances and luaus for tourists in t-shirts? the dalai lama lives in hawaii. if he were fair, he'd use his cultural genocide line on that too.


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## SqueezeDog (Sep 6, 2009)

thun said:


> Hm. Maybe the country wouldn't have needed Chinese "help" to develop their culture the way they want?  But there's really no point to try to "discuss" this topic with you yp, we both know that.
> It's not about being pretentious, it's about the right of people to decide for themselves what they want. Which Tibetans weren't able to do in the last 50 years and unfortunately won't be able to do in the near future either, obviously. There's a reason behind their protests in 2008.
> So its not about how and why Europeans "civilised" the world (which I think wasn't the right thing either), there are more than 100 years of development between. You can be pretty sure that Europeans wouldn't have occupied other countries that way in the 1950ies.


The Europeans had already occupied huge areas of land by that time, the Indians and the Aboriginies were basically wiped out by that time and the Europeans were far more developed than China, which was at medieval levels of development in the 1950s. So the job of wiping out the natives was done by the 1950s and there was a 500-year gap between China and the West in the 1950s. China today is still not at the same level of development as the Europeans was in the 1950s, even after 30 years of very fast economic growth. This is something you should think about.

BTW; The railway is glorious! Definitely a work of art.


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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)

you guys can open another thread and we can talk about it freely there,i want to keep this one clean.


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## RelaxInPireaus (Nov 2, 2008)

what are you people talking about here.... its an interesting railway, no politics


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## octopusop (Feb 10, 2009)

We are talking about values of a society.


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## YelloPerilo (Oct 17, 2003)

particlez said:


> ^you think the issue of tibet is exploited and manipulated?
> 
> remember, the issue is with 'cultural genocide', something that's highlighted about tibet, but occurs everywhere.


That's the hypocrisy of "the West". They have no problems to propagate their "standard" to the world and impose their values on the Chinese. But China trying to modernise her own country according to their cultural and socio-economical conditions is called "cultural genocide", a great propaganda slogan as the often claimed "genocide on 1.2 million Tibetans" turned out to be a fairy tale.


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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)

no use reasoning with him,he only believes what he wants to believe,just dont know why he follows every thread of mine and try to throw some dirt on them.


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## octopusop (Feb 10, 2009)

particlez said:


> ^you think the issue of tibet is exploited and manipulated?
> 
> remember, the issue is with 'cultural genocide', something that's highlighted about tibet, but occurs everywhere.


My answer.


octopusop said:


> Some europeans are enjoying their high quality material life, at the same time, they hope Africans and Tibetans living as monkeys in zoo without any rights of developing in the name of cultural diversity .
> 
> Who can tell me why these europeans are so pretentious, hypocritical and extremely selfish self-centered?


Are you monkey?


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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)

when you run out of arguements and reasons,you resort to name calling.


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## foxmulder (Dec 1, 2007)

wonderful railroad. I hope they build 100 like this in Tibet. I will go and visit there once for sure...





Tibet culture  A couple of people assigns child King-God and make people worship him. at the same time this couple of people live in a palace while regular people (servents) worships to a King/God, live like shit... Yeah right.. What a sophisticated life-style and culture!


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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)

nice,tibet is a good place to visit,and there life is changing too,young people no longer destined to become lamas,they love arts ,music,movies....like young people everywhere in the world.


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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)

Lhasa ，city on the roof of the world.


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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)




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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)

tibetan traditional costumes


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## xizhimen (Jan 16, 2009)

*young tibetan girls*










*tibetan singer阿兰·达瓦卓玛)Alan Dawa Dolma*


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## Lastresorter (Nov 24, 2004)

It's really getting out of topic!


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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)

Tibet is a part of China since Yuan Dynasty(1271-1368), what is Europe making at that time ? Dark middle ages? 

The Ming Dynasty （1368-1644）and the Qing Dynasty （1644-1911）are still managing Tibet.

In Feudal dynasty ,Tibet was Joint administration by the religious leader (Dalai) and the government official stationed in Tibet. 


Some westerners will look like the parrot to read aloud the Western media.


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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)

*Scenery rail line*

*Scenery rail line *


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## YelloPerilo (Oct 17, 2003)

loong said:


>


I like the minimalist no frills design of the station.


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

Could Tibet ever support a ski resort tourism industry? That would be a boon to the local economy. With the railway and airport it would be possible now. I don't know the nature of the mountains there or how much snow they get, perhaps its too dry. But then I bet its fine power then.

Anyways, as an American I never thought it was fair to criticize China. We did the same things as our country was growing. Ironic how much the scenery looks like the western USA. History must repeat itself, this is proof.


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## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

Wouldn't work at all because of the altitude. Lhasa is over 4000m, so the air is quite thin there already. Now imagine doing sports there for the whole day, most people would collapse. It might work for professional athletes (like Hans Kammerlander skiing down Mt. Everest without pressured air), but not for normal people.


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## He Named Thor (Feb 15, 2008)

have any more photos of the station?


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## plasmalover (Dec 11, 2006)

thun said:


> Hm. Maybe the country wouldn't have needed Chinese "help" to develop their culture the way they want?  But there's really no point to try to "discuss" this topic with you yp, we both know that.
> It's not about being pretentious, it's about the right of people to decide for themselves what they want. Which Tibetans weren't able to do in the last 50 years and unfortunately won't be able to do in the near future either, obviously. There's a reason behind their protests in 2008.
> So its not about how and why Europeans "civilised" the world (which I think wasn't the right thing either), there are more than 100 years of development between. You can be pretty sure that Europeans wouldn't have occupied other countries that way in the 1950ies.


Say what you want about the Chinese government interfering with Tibet; but if not for the assistance that China has given Tibet in terms of economic development, education, industrialization; Tibet would be the sh-ithole like the surrounding countries are; Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Afghanistan. Did China make the Tibetans lives better? Resounding yes.


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## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

But the question remains whether that is what the Tibetans want, and providing economic aid doesn't give an answer at all.
Bhutan e. g. is one of the poorest countries in the world on the sheet, but they don't bother being economical underdeveloped because it isn't part of their national agenda. Bhutan pursues a Buddhistic philosophy of happyness, economic strength in a Western understanding isn't important at all.


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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)

thun said:


> But the question remains whether that is what the Tibetans want, and providing economic aid doesn't give an answer at all.
> Bhutan e. g. is one of the poorest countries in the world on the sheet, but they don't bother being economical underdeveloped because it isn't part of their national agenda. Bhutan pursues a Buddhistic philosophy of happyness, economic strength in a Western understanding isn't important at all.



How do you know that the Tibetans do not want to develop economic?

we develop the econemy of Tibet ,you will say:They destroy the culture of Tibet.

we not develop the econemy of Tibet ,you will Cried：They Regardless of the survival of the Tibetan people.



I am fed up with it! 


Are You really have such a noble??


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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)

*Tibet was a part of China forever , the past is, the present is, in the future or.*

中国是一个多民族国家，西藏自元朝起就是中国的一部分，因为是一个少数民族区，所以历来中央政府都不会过多的干涉西藏事务，直到新中国建立。

1951年5月23日，新中国和平解放西藏。

由于西藏一直都是实行农民奴隶制度，5%的人占有西藏全部的土地和财产，其他人都是奴隶，依附于这些奴隶主。达赖就是西藏最大的奴隶主。

代表下层人民利益的共产党1959年在西藏实行民主改革和土地改革，解放奴隶并把土地分给他们，这触犯了西藏上层贵族的利益，所以得到美国中央情报局支持，并发动武装叛乱，他们的头领就是今天你们看到的笑眯眯的达赖喇嘛。讽刺的是，达赖喇嘛的父亲就是不愿意分裂国家而被分裂分子毒死的。

有空的话可以研究下西藏历史，看看达赖的人皮法器，人骨法器以及西藏过去的酷刑，看看真实的西藏，看看得到土地的奴隶们害怕失去土地而彻夜守候在土地旁边的情景。

林肯是为了获得更多的劳动力，中国共产党是本着人道主义，同样是解放奴隶，然而，林肯在你们眼中就是英雄，中国共产党在你们心中就是魔鬼。哈哈，果然是双重标准。


文化大革命中确实对干涉了宗教自由，并损毁了很多寺院，但这不仅仅在西藏，全国各地都是如此。这是中国共产党在特殊时期犯下的错误。

文革结束后，这些错误都得到了纠正，现在国家每年都投入巨资对西藏的文化进行保护，寺庙进行修缮，对西藏的牧民进行安家，并大力发展西藏的经济，全国每个省都对口支援西藏发展。

现在的西藏人民享有更好的生活和更好的宗教信仰自由。他们和你没有什么不同。



我们中国拥有五千年的文明，历来是世界文明的灯塔，历史上无数次强大，甚至到比较衰落的明朝，你们的哥伦布的船队也不及郑和船队的1/1000，即便如此，我们都一样怀着和平和全世界交往，而没有因为自己强大就去欺负别人。

相反，你们西方人这几百年在世界上做了什么？你们几乎杀光了美洲，澳洲的土著并占有他们的土地，你们贩卖非洲人为奴隶，你们在全世界殖民，仅仅一百年前，你的爷爷说不定还在中国的土地上杀人放火，大肆抢劫。

近100多年来，由于西方的侵略和剥削，中国死亡了无数的人民，丢失了无数的珍宝，失去了近600万平方公里的土地（比半个欧洲还大），3000多万件珍贵的文物流失海外，仅你们西方的博物馆里就有1000多万件中国的珍宝，你们难道不觉得羞耻吗？

不要告诉我，你们文明，你们是为了保护这些文物。成龙曾经说过：把别人的文物放在自己的博物馆，还说是帮别人保管，这是可耻的行为！！

100年前还是强盗，100年后居然以为自己洗白了，是绅士了。开始对世界上最古老的国家指手画脚，真是可笑。

我要说的是，西藏永远是中国一部分，以前是，现在是，将来还是。



历史已经过去，中国人并不是记仇的民族，过去的历史并不是今天的西方人的错，我们愿意与西方的人民做朋友，但是如果你和你们的媒体一样，总是对中国进行说教，甚至连西藏在哪里都不知道，那么，请你闭嘴并保持安静！！！！！


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China is a multinational country, Tibet is part of China since the Yuan Dynasty（1271-1368）, because it is a national minority area, so the central government will not interference Tibetan affairs too much until the new China .May 23, 1951, the New China liberation Tibet peaceful.
The old Tibet practices the farmer-slave system, 5% people hold the land and the property of Tibet completely , other people are the slaves, attaches in these slave-owners. Dalai is the biggest slave-owner of Tibet . 

The CCP who on behalf of the benefit of the depressed classes was executed the democratic reform and the land reform in Tibet, liberated slaves and apportions their land .this has Offended the upper formation aristocrat's benefit . therefore the armed rebellion started,and Obtains subsidization by CIA.Their leader is the smiles Dalai Lama you saw today.What satirizes, Dalai Lama's father was killed by Rebellion members with Toxicant Because of he was not willing to divided the country.

You can research history of Tibet if you have time ,have a look at Dalai's Buddhist musical istrument made by person-skin ,and made by human-bones . And the Brutal penalty of Old Tibet, Has a look at real Tibet .has a look at the slaves who Obtains the land Waits for all night in the edge Because of afraid lose the land Again.

Lincoln is In order to obtains more labor forces, the CCP is in line with the humanitarianism, It is similarly to liberate slaves, however, Lincoln is the hero in your eye, the CCP is a devil in your heart . Ha,It is really the double standards. 

The CCP has interfered the freedom of religion truly and damaged many templesIn the Great Cultural Revolution. but this not only in Tibet,The nation is so. This is Serious mistake which violates in the specific time of CCP. This is very hurtful.


After the Great Cultural Revolution ended, The mistake obtains the correction, now our country spends the large amount of money to protect the culture of Tibet every year , to Restores and maintains the temple ,to help the herdsman settles down the lives,and developed Tibet's economy vigorously.each province supports Tibet to develop their economy and the culture.


Now everyone in Tibet enjoy the good life and the better freedom of religious belief. They have no different with you.




Our China has 5000 years civilizations ,is always the civilization lighthouse of the world.we innumerable great strength in the history.Even in Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) that is not formidable,Columbus's fleet is inferior to the Zheng He 1/1000.Even if so,we also contact with other country equally and peacefully .Not bully others because we formidable. 

On the contrary ,what have your westerner doing in the world these several hundred years ?You nearly killed off the Aborigines of America and Australia , and hold their land.You trade the black slave ,you colonize in whole world. Just merely 100 years ago,maybe Perhaps your grandfather also kills and fire on our Chinese land, Robs massively.

Nearly 100 years ,as a result of Westner's aggression and the exploitation in China,There are Innumerable people died ,innumerable treasures lost,we Loss nearly 6,000,000 square kilometers lands (it is bigger than half Europe) ,more than 30,000,000 precious cultural relics drain the overseas ,Only in your West's museum there are more than 10,000,000 chinese treasures, some people will feel ashamed? 

Do not tell me, you are the civilized person, you are to protect these cultural relics. Jacky Chen had said: Places own museum others' treasure ,Added that is the faction life insurance tube ,This is the ignominious behavior !!!!

You are robber 100 years ago,Now actually thought that himself is the gentleman ,and to gesticulate The most ancient country in the world .it is really a joke.



What I must to say, Tibet was a part of China forever , the past is, the present is, in the future or. 


The history already passed, the Chinese is not the nationality which bore a grudge,we were willing to make friends with Western people, but if you even do not know where is Tibet in Actually Rigid theorizing to China like your media, then pls shut up and keep quiet.OK??



How do you know that the Tibetans do not want economic development?

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都是我自己写的，英文不好，翻的很辛苦，估计里面有很多很多错误。不过应该能看懂。如果英文好的兄弟，可以帮忙订正一下，有好的意见可以加进去，做成一个模板，以后谁再说西藏什么什么的，我们就往上贴，知道他不说为止。


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## snow is red (May 7, 2007)

Posts No.47-51 are so irrelevant.


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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)

*Potala Palace-Grand palace*

In 641, after marrying Princess Wencheng, Songtsen Gampo decided to build a grand palace to accommodate her and let his descendants remember the event. However, the original palace was destroyed due to a lightening strike and succeeding warfare during Landama's reign. In seventeenth century under the reign of the Fifth Dalai Lama, Potala was rebuilt. The Thirteenth Dalai Lama expanded it to today's scale. The monastery-like palace, reclining against and capping Red Hill, was the religious and political center of old Tibet and the winter palace of Dalai Lamas. The palace is more than 117 meters (384 feet) in height and 360 (1180 feet) in width, occupying a building space of 90 thousand square meters. Potala is composed of White Palace and Red Palace. The former is for secular use while the later is for religious.


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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)

*Potala Palace-Grand palace*


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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)

*Potala Palace-Grand palace*


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## snow is red (May 7, 2007)

Honestly I think this thread is useless, it's supposed to be about railway but now people post pictures of girls, dance, traditions, palace, fireworks, food....etc.....


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## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

^^
True. And as beautiful as the pics of the Potala are, they're irrelevant, too.

@ loong: It's not about being noble, wanting to keep development from someone or anything, it's about respecting the freedom of choice every people has according to the human rights. Might be a bit over the top to ask respecting it (especially in this case), but it's still my opinion about the topic (and about every other similar case, no matter in which country). And I stick to it, just like you will stick to your opinion. it's not my intention to make someone "convert" to my point of view and I accept you everyone having another opinion (as mentioned before).
So let's finish the matter and go on with the railway, ok?


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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)

I really don’t want to talk about politics here.

I know that Chinese progress development isn’t as great as The U.S. right now, but other than you guys have the citizen rights to vote for presidential election, Chinese have liberty and freedom too. China is not JUST a “county of police officers.”

There are improvement and development in XiZang too. They can’t always be like that, even though there are some economy problems, they can still choose the way they live. They can have their believes and religion, they can get their education, or jobs.

Being in part of the society right now isn’t something that you can choose, but that doesn’t mean XiZang developing their economy will destroy their old way or their tradition and culture. Chinese government is trying their best to protect XiZang’s culture so we don’t lose it in the future. 


I have some pictures of XiZang people’s daily life, but I don’t think just the pictures can explain everything clear. If you don’t agree with me, you can go to China, XiZang and experience it yourself. Please don’t take it for granted, and please don’t talk about the stuff you don’t know just because you heard something about this from someone that you don’t even know. 

Let’sjust talk about the railroad please. I have more PICS to share with you.


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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)

Aviation photography


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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)

Railroad


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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)




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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)




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## YelloPerilo (Oct 17, 2003)

thun said:


> But the question remains whether that is what the Tibetans want, and providing economic aid doesn't give an answer at all.
> Bhutan e. g. is one of the poorest countries in the world on the sheet, but they don't bother being economical underdeveloped because it isn't part of their national agenda. Bhutan pursues a Buddhistic philosophy of happyness, economic strength in a Western understanding isn't important at all.


This is one hell of a hilarious and self-rightous statement. Tibet is part of China and the Chinese gov. has the right to modernise her territory as she thinks it's good for the development of her citizen's livelihood. There is no need for the "West" to play the lawyer or spokes person for citizens of China. 

Where ever the "West" interferes outside of their cultural sphere it brough nothing but misery and destruction. From slavery, genocides, plunder, rape to drug peddling.

Bhutan and happiness, yeah right. Ask the millions of displaced ethnic Nepali who have been living in Bhutan for centuries but don't believe in lamaism. I don't see the "West" crying foul, racism, freedom of religion etc., because Bhutan is a quantité neglegiable whilst China is seen as the ONLY rival in ALL aspects having the potential to question the fundamental self-concept of the "West".


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## He Named Thor (Feb 15, 2008)

Those are some fantastic pictures! Do you have some of the rooms onboard, and the coach class seating (ie non-room)?


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## tuckerbox (Oct 15, 2007)

Stunning Pictures Loong, thanks for posting.
What an amazing beautifull Country.
I say, leave the politics asside. As always time will be the final Judge.


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## foxmulder (Dec 1, 2007)

Epic railroad  great pitures.. tnx for sharing.


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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)

yes ,there are some pics about the coach class seating 













There are two ways to provide oxygen to Passenger ：The air conditioning provide and independent ventilation Each seat 





















dining room on the train











open-type toilet





















refuse compactor











The Luxury Train / Trains worth 150 million U.S. dollars，there are just 96 seat on the train


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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)




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## loong (Aug 31, 2009)

He Named Thor said:


> have any more photos of the station?


YES，It is Naqu railway station(那曲站)


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