# TORONTO | Subway & Light Rail



## KGB

Hmmm...this must be Toronto....we bitch about the 905's suburban nature...and we bitch about them wanting to invest in mass transit.

Let's just change the name to Humeville.






KGB


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## Homer J. Simpson

I don't deny that investing in transit in York Region is important to the future developement of that area. But this funding for expantion in the 905 seems a little misplaced when considering 90% of PT trips in the GTA are taken on the TTC.


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## KGB

And unless the 905 starts promoting public transit, it's going to remain 90%...while the 905 continues to grow bigger than the 416.

Serious initial transit infastructure is always expensive...you shoulda heard Torontonians gripe when they wanted to build the first subway line...and that was built entirely with TTC profits!!






KGB


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## hkskyline

November 27, 2004
*TTC on board for smart fare card*
Kevin McGran, Toronto Star

We may have to start calling it The Better e-Way.

After initial resistance, the Toronto Transit Commission is now fully on board with a $200 million provincial plan that would create a single high-tech fare system from Hamilton to Oshawa. "It's going to happen and we know the province is going to invest in it. We want to get it right," Brian Ashton, a Toronto councillor and TTC commissioner, said in an interview yesterday.

Ashton made his comments at a meeting of the Canadian Urban Institute, which drew leaders from around the Greater Toronto Area to talk about the future of transit. Ashton said in an interview that the about-face came after a closed-door meeting of TTC commissioners last week.

GO Transit chairman Gordon Chong called the decision "terrific," adding: "They had to be dragged kicking and screaming, but I guess they've seen the future."

Electronic smart card systems are already in place in several American, Asian and European cities. A microchip in the card counts off transit rides. Depending on the technology used, the cards, which can be purchased with a set number of rides on them, are topped up at kiosks and wickets, and in some systems via a secure website.

When riders enter a station or step on to a vehicle, a card reader scans the chip, verifying that the fare is paid and deducting it from the number of trips on the card. Some transit smart cards don't even require removing them from a pocket, wallet or purse.

The chips can be adjusted to allow for the price of an adult, senior or child's fare, or sliding-scale fares like GO's zone system. Some can even instruct a door to stay open longer for a disabled passenger or someone who travels with a seeing-eye dog.

It will take about two years to implement a pilot project - likely to include GO Transit, parts of Mississauga Transit and the TTC's Union Station, which
is the primary transfer point for commuters arriving by GO. If successful, the project would roll out across the GTA, between Hamilton and Oshawa.

GO Transit has been the biggest backer of the smart card technology, because its proof of payment machines - in which tickets are inserted so the travel date can be stamped on them - are old, breaking down and too expensive to replace.

GO hired smart card expert Robert Hollis a year ago to run the project. But the Dalton McGuinty Liberals, who campaigned on a promise to integrate fares in the GTA, pushed GO to work faster and ultimately brought Hollis on board to work directly for the government.

The government plans to issue a request for proposals to smart card suppliers in the next few months - with or without the TTC - and the City of Toronto didn't want to be left behind.

The TTC, by far the largest transit system in the GTA carrying 80 per cent of all riders, had resisted the smart card because it had more pressing issues to
spend money on: namely new bus purchases and maintenance of tracks, streetcars and subways.

But without the TTC's participation, the Liberal promise of integrated transit would have been empty.

The TTC's chief general manager, Rick Ducharme, said yesterday the TTC is on board now because financial promises from Queen's Park and Ottawa, through the gas tax and other measures, mean its future is more stable.

"We're in the camp," said Ducharme. "Our commitment is to fully co-operate and take this much more seriously."

Queen's Park is expected to pay for GO's part of the bill, about $60 million, and at least one-third of the remaining $140 million, with the municipalities and
the federal government paying the rest.

Ashton said the city is not so concerned about seamless travel between transit authorities but about the smart card's economic benefits. People could use the card to pay for coffee, lunch or other goods at subway stations and corner stores.

"Think of the things you can do," said Ashton. "You're into advertisers on your smart cards or aeroplan miles if you want. The marketing capabilities are enormous.

"We think there's a potential beyond transit. E-transit will become e-city," Ashton added. "There's a huge opportunity and not only to serve the transit
system but potentially to make Toronto an e-city (and) we're far behind in a whole number of areas."

The TTC has been accused of dragging its feet on the issue, and admits it has problems with passengers buying tokens, tickets and Metropasses. It's considering a huge move toward vending machines to dispense tickets and tokens. A smart card could simplify fares and simplify the counting of cash.

"Our equipment, though it's old-fashioned, it still works," said Ashton. "However, we know we have problems moving cash around. We know we have problems with fare media fraud. People around us are becoming more modern, we don't want to be seen as some city Luddite."

Ducharme said it's too early to tell whether the TTC would entirely eliminate the "gravity box" which collects tickets, tokens and coins, but he said he's
gone from a cynic to a believer, in part because of a trip to Hong Kong where the smart card is a smashing success.

"Can we do it? Once you see it you believe it. I was in Hong Kong and I was very impressed," said Ducharme, adding that smart card suppliers have had a decade to work out the kinks. "Just because I didn't push it doesn't mean I don't believe strongly in it. I believe we can do it."


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## Guest

I guess since I'm 13, I can't make comments on other transit systems, but I like the TTC. The Scarborough RT is REALLY ugly. It looks fake. The subways, however, look real. The idea of putting coloured stripes on the cars is impractical beacuse it would mean that the TTC could not move wagons between the diffrent lines.


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## Nick

Very impressive.

I rode the Toronto system in 2001.I was pretty happy with the serivce


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## hkskyline

*Spadina subway study nearing finish
Advocates can select preferred routes online Subway to link York University to Downsview *
Hicham Safieddine 
Toronto Star 
19 May 2005

Time is running out for public transit enthusiasts to select their preferred route for a Spadina subway extension. 

The last public workshop to discuss the pros and cons of four possible routes for the proposed extension was held yesterday at an education centre in the city's west end. 

But transit advocates who missed the meeting can still have their say with a click of a button, thanks to a new online service launched on the TTC website Tuesday. 

The deadline for submissions is June 1. 

"The online commentary is great for us," TTC chief engineer Tom Middlebrook said. 

"The information is put in and we don't have to interpret what the participants submitted into the computer like we do with handwritten forms." 

The workshop is part of Phase II of a $3 million environmental assessment study of the project, which is designed to link Downsview Station with York University and beyond in York region, one of the fastest growing regions of the GTA. 

Members of the public will also get a chance to comment on the locations of the proposed stations along their chosen routes, and any additions or modifications they think will enhance the service. 

The four currently proposed stops are: Downsview Park, Keele and Finch station, York University station, and Steeles station between Jane St. and Keele St. 

Christian Quezada, who took part in yesterday's workshop, said he was looking forward to travelling on the new subway extension if the proposal goes through. 

"I bike all around the city all the time, but I can't go too far with my bike," Quezada said. 

"With the new extension, I can go wherever I want." 

But the 22-year-old airport employee said he will recommend that the last proposed stop, currently planned near the northern edge of York University, is built at the Jane and Finch intersection. 

The last and third phase of the study is expected to conclude this fall. 

The results will be sent to the TTC board for approval. The Ministry of the Environment will then have seven months to review, and approve or reject the study's findings, Middlebrook said. 

York University had lobbied hard for a new subway but was less enthusiastic about a busway currently under construction and expected to open in 2006. 

Middlebrook said the university administration supports the choice of York Commons as the campus stop on the line. 

"When we did our study we looked at student movement, concentration and convenience," Middlebrook explained. 

"The centre of the university was at the commons and so that was pretty much a slam dunk." 

Middlebrook said the cancellation of a project to build a football stadium helped more than it harmed. 

"For our planning purposes the stadium was inconsequential," he said. 

"It actually frees up space for possible high density and commercial growth."


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## hkskyline

*TTC welcomes its 25 Billionth Rider*

TORONTO, May 26 /CNW/ - The TTC today named its official 25 Billionth Rider at a draw at Eglinton Station bus terminal. Parkdale-High Park MP, the Honourable Sarmite Bulte drew the winning name, Mouris Moussa, and along ith TTC Chair Howard Moscoe, escorted Mr. Moussa to push the button to become the official 25 Billionth rider since the TTC was formed in 1921.

Mr. Moussa, who was accompanied by his wife, Anritte Hanna, received a first-class VIA rail trip for two to any Canadian destination, a free TTC Metropass each month for one year and a TTC leather varsity-style jacket. His name was drawn from the 25 finalists' stories, selected from the 2,000 entries in the TTC's 25 Billionth Rider Contest. His story follows:

"Me and my wife were seniors, new immigrants to CANADA. Our first ride to Union station from Sheppard was by the subway. My wife catched last car but I missed the subway. One of the employees of the TTC watched my very bad situation. Quickly he contacted the subway driver and took me with his car to Eglinton station where my wife was waiting me. I never forget this kind help from them."

The 25 finalists each received a TTC sling pack, a corgi model collector streetcar, an official TTC T-shirt, a spring jacket and a thermal travel mug.

One billion customers ride the TTC every 30 months.


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## ssiguy2

I don't quite understand this smartcard thing. 
It seems to be almost like a debit card.........but $100 then the card keeps deducting until there is no money left on it. 
That part I get. What I don't understand is that if they eventually get rid of transfers then does that not mean that the card will have to be used everytime they use the bus/streetcar/subway?. If so, you would be paying a lot more. 
I'm sure they have thought of this but how will that work?


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## hkskyline

The smart card can automatically charge 0 for a transfer. For example, I swipe once on the subway entering and swipe again when I leave. At the time I leave, the smart card will store an electronic transfer valid for a certain period of time so the next time I swipe as I board the bus it'll know and not deduct anything. 

Technically riders will have to swipe at every boarding - bus / streetcar / subway. Current technology allows contactless swiping (ie. put the card in your bag and swipe your bag) or even embed the chip in a watch or cell phone plate to make it as convenient as possible.


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## usernames suck

I'd take the stainless steel, industrial looking subway trains (like the ones found in TO, Phili, Chicago, and NYC) over any other subway train in the world, i just love the look.


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## Booyashako

Stainless steel subways are awesome! The look is very 'big-city-ish'.


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## NY1

The trains in Toronto may not look beautiful, but believe me that they are very clean and spacious.


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## samsonyuen

There are free transfers amongst tube lines here in the London Underground, and you don't have to exit and enter again using your Oyster or Travelcard. However, on buses, there are no transfers, and you have to pay for each journey.


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## Homer J. Simpson

The transfers between surface routes to subway was impemented in TO along time ago. I won't go so far as to say it was done here first but the TTC was certainly one of the firsts systems to do this.

The smart cards are a great idea, I can't wait for them to be implemented.


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## Reflex

Some nice stations, but don't really like any trains, neither the modern ones...:|


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## rise_against

i like th e Toronto subway cars as well, how old are they now? I was looking at the monorail system in Seattle, thats sweet. Do u think that theres a chance of toronto (or any canadian city) gettin that? Maybe they could use that $200 000 000 influx? Is this a good idea?


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## DrJoe

Well most were built from 1997-present.


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## rise_against

so whats the life of these cars? 30-40 years?


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## hkskyline

*Grand piano in the subway??? *

TORONTO, June 27 /CNW/ - Decked out in white tie and tails, seated at a candelabra-lit baby grand piano ... TTC riders traveling through Finch Station this morning will ask themselves "Could this be Liberace?"

In fact, the pianist who is wiping away TTC customers' Monday morning funk is Gordon Murray playing from his wide repertoire: from Chopin, Mozart and Beethoven to popular tunes made famous by Lionel Ritchie, Diana Ross and the Bee Gees. From 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday, June 27th, Mr. Murray will entertain in the rotunda below the TTC bus platform at Finch Station. About 90,000 customers travel through Finch Station each weekday.

Over the summer months, the TTC will provide a series of small entertainments for customers at various subway stations, on bus platforms, in TTC parking lots and on streetcars. Mr. Murray's performance is one of these events.

Mr. Murray has a Bachelor of Music degree from the University of Toronto.


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## addisonwesley

For those of you that didnt know:










I noticed this today on the subway - haven't heard any other news though. Still good news though. That wall isn't really curved, it's just my messed up camera.


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## Jaye101

Yeah, I ride the 116Morningside, and in 6 months they completely went WheelChair Accesible. One day the LCD said "I'm a new bus, 800 more of me will be here by 2008"

"are any sections of the lines in Toronto elevated?"
Yeah, many areas are, but they arent extensive.









"At best. It took them a decade to build the measly Sheppard line. In the same period, Madrid built 100km of subway."
My name is the TTC, and I am the train who can. I think I can, I think I can, I think I can.


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## York Transit

*TTC Subway - The Amazing Race? *

http://www.culturehole.com/blog_commento.asp?blog_id=14

Take a look, I think anyone's welcome as long if you have a cellphone and a unlimited travel pass.


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## addisonwesley

Ahaha, only in Toronto...heehee.


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## addisonwesley

*Toronto's Subway: 51 Years Yonge!*

*Canada's First Subway:*

Running along Toronto's main thoroughfare, Yonge Street (hence the title), the subway ran from Union Station at the southern point of Toronto, to Eglinton Avenue in the north of the city, which was then in suburbia. The first subway in Canada ran on March 30, 1954 - taking 12 minutes from Eglinton Station to Union. The original Yonge Line stations include (in order from north to south):

Eglinton
Davisville
St. Clair
Summerhill
Rosedale (affluent neighbourhood)
Bloor (now Bloor-Yonge)
Wellesley
College
Dundas
Queen
King
Union

*Subway and Station design*

The first subway cars were 'Gloucesters', which were common in London's Underground at the time. They were painted red for the reason that the cars were steel and so needed protection (rusting), paint served this purpose well until aluminum bodied Gloucesters were ordered soon after. The staions as you will see, are quite simple in design. Today the designs of the stations are still sleak and clean, as they were at the time of design, but the designs are far from modern (save the Sheppard subway which opened recently). "They look like giant restrooms" many a TTC subway rider have commented, and you no doubt will think exactly the same when you see the stations. Others say it looks boring, a comment with which most would agree - but looking beyond that first impression, one sees that this 'public restroom' design unifies the subway system (in stations constructed between 1954-1966). The look: "a solid background colour relieved by a stripe of darker contrasting colour about 7 feet up". The design may be simple, but it makes identifying a station easy (without reading the name). Even a new font was commissioned for the subway and to this day, that little known fact allows it to elude those who have 'fallen in love' with the font. Unfortunately, the tiling of the majority of the 1954 stations was replaced at sometime with more 'modern' designs which totally undid the original design scheme.


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## addisonwesley

*Station Pictures [to be continually expanded until complete]*

YUS = Yonge-University-Spadina
BD = Bloor-Danforth

Bloor-Yonge station (interchange of the BD and YUS lines)
Below: Yonge Trains Platform, approx. 2:35 PM

Comments: One of the busiest stations of the TTC subway. A crowd of people emerges from the trains afterwards.

Islington Station (former end-station of BD line)
Below: West most entrance to platform, approx. 1:20 PM

Comments: Very empty. You must ascend two flights of stairs from the main entrance to get to the platform.

Below: View on Islington platform (Eastbound Side), approx. 1:22 PM

Comments: The train had just left, leaving the platform empty.

Below: Sign showing next station and direction of travel, approx. 1:23 PM

Comments: None.

Royal York Station
Below: Royal York

Comments: Steel girders dividing eastbound and westbound trains.

Below: View on Royal York platform (Eastbound side), time unknown

Comments: Also very empty.

Below: Eastbound train entering station, time unknown

Comments: None.

Old Mill Station
Below: Looking towards the windowed section of the platform (Eastbound side), time unknown

Comments: Because part of the station extends over the edge of a ravine, half was windowed for structural and aesthetic reasons.

Below: Looking out towards the wooded ravine (facing westbound platform), time unknown

Comments: Looking out at the eastbound platform's side, one can see another bridge crossing the ravine.


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## NYC2ORDGuy

You call that disrepair? I wanna move to Toronto! I want to move to Toronto!


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## DrJoe

No they arent in disrepair they are just getting older...it happens.


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## York Transit

*TTC Bomb Scare; Subway evacuated...*

http://www.canada.com/toronto/video/072805ttc.html


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## zonie

I find Vancouver's Skytrain is more secure system than Toronto's subway against terrorist attacks. As most of the stations are elevated rather than underground, explosions would be less devestating, being in relatively open air. Also, there's higher visibility, as even people outside the station can see what's going on within.


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## Falubaz

don't be so sure. if there is an attack inside a train, the elevated stations can't help people sitting inside. of course in that case it is much easier to run away or to help the passangers injured.


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## zonie

That above post was a little tongue in cheek and mainly written because the topic starter just posted a link without any discussion. However, Vancouver's system also has another advantage with its armed transit police. Not to mention, elevated systems aren't as susceptible to toxic gas attacks.


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## hkskyline

Elevated systems also trap the occupants of the train in a disaster. A bomb blast may be so powerful it will derail the train and it will plunge to the streets below, causing more casualties.


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## KGB

Ok...so using this logic, i will move to suburbia, where the likelyhood of damage on non-existant subways is quite minimal. LOL

If there's a point to be made here, i wish somebody would fill me in.







"I find Vancouver's Skytrain is more secure system than Toronto's subway against terrorist attacks."


They are both equally secure against them....as in nothing could stop them on either system. 

London has the most secure subway system in the world....in fact the whole city...the whole country is covered with security cameras catching every movement every person makes. There are 4.2 million spycams watching 60 million britons...the average Briton is caught on camera an average of 300 times a day.

And this does dick in stopping the attacks.

Perhaps you should worry about something else instead. 





KGB


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## hkskyline

Who knows what the terrorists may think of next? If they really want to stir up fear, they'll hit where people won't expect them to hit. A few years ago the Americans were worried that terrorists would send explosives-packed trucks into cities.

Then there are the bus bombs, which can explode anywhere and are commonplace in Israel and as recently as London. Perhaps people would fear riding the bus now, too?


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## KGB

"THE TERRORISTS!!!!! "


ha ha ha

oooooooooh...I'm worried now...you really got me scared.


You know who you should be concerned with?

Not "The Terrorists"....the dipshit suburban housewife in her SUV...yacking on the cell phone, not paying attention to the road....and is about to cause an accident on the highway.





KGB


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## hkskyline

So ignore the London bombings, then blame everyone for complacency after an attack has occurred. The first step to prevention is education, unless people are so ignorant that many more lives shall perish because of it.


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## jeicow

I think it depends on how you mean secure.

Toronto does have the disadvantage of being underground therefore making it harder to get resucers to stuck trains, while the SkyTrains elevatedness (i make up words) makes it a lot easier to help.

On the other hand, because Vancouver is elevated, it could be less secure so it could be possible to plant bombs on track support and stuff during the night. It'd almost be impossible to get to the tracks/ a station on Toronto's subway (some exceptions in the old boroughs) during the night because it's underground, and therefore (hopefully) more secure.

Due to the fact Vancouver is elevated, tt'd be possible to launch a rocket or something at a station/platform more easily and cause major damage from a distance. To shot a rocket at the platform on the subway, you'd have to be in the station (some exceptions), and it'd be obivous what you were doing if you had a rocket launcher with you.

Vancouver though would likely be able to survive a gas attack because most of the gas would just float away, while Toronto would be compressed in a smaller space.

Overall, both systems are screwed if there's a terrorist attack. Luckily there are alternatives:
Cars: Pros: No strangers in your cars. Cons: Pollutes, terrorists could attack bridge/highway/street
Bus: Pros: Enviromentally friendly Cons: most smell funny, sucks when you get a bus driver with attitude, a bomber would be just as likely
Walking: Pros: exercise, no pollution Cons: Kill your lungs with all the pollution from the cars and buses, more likely to be shot/stabbed/robbed when walking than a terrorist attacking you.

Conclusion => The safest way to travel in Canada: No matter what we're screwed. To be safest walk with 50 Cent, that way to attract the bullets from you towards him.


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## KGB

"So ignore the London bombings, then blame everyone for complacency after an attack has occurred."

It's not a case of ignoring or not ignoring. And the only people to blame for attacks...are the attackers.





"The first step to prevention is education, unless people are so ignorant that many more lives shall perish because of it."


I suggest you sign yourself up for some then...cause you make about as much sense as tits on a hen.







KGB


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## Bitxofo

Barcelona Airport, Terminal A was evacuated the day before yesterday (28/7/2005), because of 2 abandoned suitcases...
:eek2:
I work here, these are the photos I took:
































500 people evacuated for 1 hour!
:runaway:


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## Taller Better

To 'catch' a peeping Tom??????!!!!!!!!!!????? Sounds to me like they were trying to
'create' a peeping Tom. I find the whole concept disgusting and filthy-minded. I hope
the cretins responsible get their marching orders.


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## spsmiler

Naughty - anywhere, whether at a transit related location or otherwise.

Simon


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## hkskyline

*TTC Holiday Season Schedule *

TORONTO, ON--(CCNMatthews - Dec. 19, 2005) - This holiday season avoid downtown driving hassles, as well as the high cost of parking, by taking The Better Way. Here are service changes that reflect TTC riders' holiday travel demands from Monday, December 19th, 2005 to Monday, January 2nd, 2006. On New Year's Eve, most subway trains leave downtown at about 2:30 a.m. The specific details are below:

*Monday, December 19 to Thursday, December 22*

* Regular service
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* Reduced peak period service on 191 Highway 27 Rocket, 44 Kipling South and 134 Progress

*Friday, December 23*

* Regular morning peak service, reduced afternoon peak period service
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* Afternoon peak period from 12:00 noon to 5:00 p.m.
* Reduced peak period service on 191 Highway 27 Rocket, 44 Kipling South and 134 Progress

*Saturday, December 24 - Christmas Eve*

* Saturday service
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.

*Sunday, December 25 - Christmas Day*

* Sunday service.
* Subway and most routes start at 9:00 a.m.

*Monday, December 26 - Boxing Day and Tuesday, December 27*

* Saturday service
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* 196 York University Rocket cancelled

*Wednesday, December 28 and Thursday, December 29*

* Regular service.
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* Reduced peak period service on 191 Highway 27 Rocket, 44 Kipling South and 134 Progress

*Friday, December 30*

* Regular morning peak period service, reduced afternoon peak period service.
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* Reduced peak period service on the 191 Highway 27 Rocket, 44 Kipling South and 134 Progress

*Saturday, December 31 - New Year's Eve*

* Saturday service extended until later than usual.
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* Most bus and streetcar routes with late-evening service continue until 3:00 a.m.
* Extra trips on all Blue Night routes between 3:00 a.m. and 4:00 a.m.
* Last trains on the Yonge-University-Spadina Subway leave Union Station at 2:31 a.m. for
Finch Station, and 2:36 a.m. for Downsview Station.
* Last trains on the Bloor-Danforth Subway leave Bloor-Yonge Station at 2:38 a.m. for Kipling Station, and at 2:38 a.m. for Kennedy Station.
* Last train on the Scarborough RT leaves Kennedy Station at 3:04 a.m. for McCowan Station.
* Last train on the Sheppard Subway leaves Sheppard-Yonge Station at 2:58 a.m. for Don Mills Station.

*Sunday, January 1, 2006 - New Year's Day*

* Sunday service
* Subway and most routes start at 9:00 a.m.

*Monday, January 2, 2006*

* Saturday service. Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* 196 York University Rocket cancelled

From December 26th, 2005 to Monday, January 6th, 2006, for just $8.00 a day, a TTC Day Pass provides unlimited travel all day long for group of up to six people, maximum two adults over 19.

For more information on holiday transit schedules, the public should call 416 393-4636 (INFO), seven days a week, or log on to www.ttc.ca.


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## jeicow

How can Vaughan be the first 905 city to get a subway station? I guess this is TOs way of giving the finger to Missy/Richmond Hill/Markham.


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## Bertez

^^Naw, that's just his "dream" TTC map.....but the TTC first priorities aren't to the 905 region....so any extention into the heart of the 905 won't be seen in a long time.


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## mopc

Toront´s system does indeed seem a little too small.


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## Jaye101

Yeah... But I do beleive Vaughan will be the first. There pushing so hard for it.


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## mike_feng90

I cant believe the incompleted Sheppard-subway took 8 years for those 5 stations!!!!


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## samsonyuen

jeicow said:


> How can Vaughan be the first 905 city to get a subway station? I guess this is TOs way of giving the finger to Missy/Richmond Hill/Markham.


I think because there is more continuous "density" north of the current termini for the Yonge and Spadina lines than west of the Bloor line. I don't think we'll see a station to Sherway, which is on the edge of Toronto.


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## rise_against

Vote me PM and i promise that "dream map" will be reality!


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## Skybean




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## hkskyline

* TCF Subway Station Revitalization Project Gets $1 Million Boost From Budd Sugarman Foundation
$1.75 Raised to Date for Museum Station Renovations *
16 February 2006
Canada NewsWire

TORONTO, Feb. 16 /CNW/ -- TORONTO, Feb. 16 /CNW/ - The Toronto Community Foundation (TCF) today announced it has received a gift of $1 million from the Budd Sugarman Foundation for TCF's "Arts on Track" initiative to revitalize three Toronto subway stations. 

"This generous donation from the Budd Sugarman Foundation adds tremendous momentum to the initiative of other seed funders. It shows their transformational vision for Toronto's public transit, arts, environment and tourism," said TCF President and CEO Anne Swarbrick. 

"We are thrilled to support this project in Budd's memory because it represents the perfect marriage of his two passions: the Arts and the City of Toronto," said Gerald Soloway, Trustee of the Budd Sugarman Foundation. "It creates a gateway between key Toronto cultural institutions located above ground with the below ground platforms through which thousands of adults and children pass everyday." 

Mr. Sugarman was known as "the unofficial mayor of Yorkville" because of his efforts to preserve heritage buildings and architectural landmarks in the area. Upon his death a year and a half ago, Mr. Sugarman left a large portion of his estate to the Budd Sugarman Foundation. One of the directives given to its trustees was that he wished to make a significant contribution to the Arts and the City of Toronto. 

TCF's "Arts on Track" project will revitalize Museum, Osgoode and St. Patrick subway stations to boost cultural tourism and public transit in Toronto. The platform levels of the three subway stations will be renovated to provide transit riders with a visual experience linking them to the major cultural institutions in the area, such as the Royal Ontario Museum, Art Gallery of Ontario, Ontario College of Art and Design and the Four Seasons Centre for the Performing Arts, which will be the home of the National Ballet of Canada and the Canadian Opera Company. 

"The Budd Sugarman Foundation donation shows that our city's leaders share our vision of a stronger Toronto with a unique and world-class transit system linked to its outstanding cultural institutions," said Mayor David Miller. "I encourage others to support this project, which represents an important partnership in the City of Toronto." 

Today's donation brings the early commitments raised by TCF for the project to $1.75 million. An estimated $4.5 million is required to complete renovations at Museum Station, where work will begin later this year and be completed in 2007. 

The Toronto Transit Commission has endorsed "Arts on Track" and provided $1.5 million towards the total cost of the initiative, as part of a matching program to help TCF leverage private contributions. 

TCF is working with its philanthropic donors, governments, the cultural institutions and Toronto's business community to gather the financial support to complete the project. Donations and gifts to support the "Arts on Track" project can be made through the Toronto Community Foundation. 

"What impresses us is the role of the Toronto Community Foundation as the honest broker that creates an effective interface between private and public funders. TCF helps private philanthropists who want to make Toronto a better place, but who find it daunting to find a place to start," said Jason Soloway, advisor to the Budd Sugarman Foundation, who works for the Andrea and Charles Bronfman Philanthropies in New York. 

"Toronto's leaders in business, tourism, culture and public transit are invited to join us in support of this project. Its economic, cultural tourism and environmental impact will provide lasting benefit for the whole community," Ms. Swarbrick said. "This project represents an investment in public spaces that will substantially improve Toronto's quality of life." 

TCF is a charitable organization dedicated to making Toronto the best place to live, work, learn and grow. TCF helps philanthropic citizens and families establish endowment funds for charitable giving and identifies community opportunities to ensure that grants have the greatest impact on improving Toronto's quality of life. 

Paul Howard, Vice President, Communications & Marketing, Toronto Community Foundation, (416) 921-2035 ext. 232


----------



## DrJoe

*Toronto Transit - Pictures!*

From flickr. Toronto has a pretty bare-bones system. Moves you from A to B and nothing more, the way its supposed to be.

*Subway*































































































































*Streetcars*









































































end/


----------



## dchengg

so artistic~!


----------



## bayviews

Great pictures of Toronto's TTC. While the TTC has has struggled to keep up with Toronto's growth, it's still one of the very best transit systems anywhere in North America!


----------



## Skybean

Subway service is good. Bus service is horrid (compared with similar systems worldwide)


----------



## Bertez

My favourite pic.....


>


----------



## micro

The subway pics are great!


----------



## MelbourneCity

Does the TTC subway run above ground too, or is it entirely underground?
Are the doors on the streetcars only on the one side?


----------



## TRZ

MelbourneCity said:


> Does the TTC subway run above ground too, or is it entirely underground?
> Are the doors on the streetcars only on the one side?


The subway is mostly underground, but runs above ground around Keele, High Park, Old Mill, Islington, Kipling, Victoria Park, Warden, Kennedy, Rosedale, Davisville stations, between Broadview-Castle Frank stations (Bloor Viaduct, somebody's favourite picture  ), and north of Eglinton West Station is almost entirely above ground except for the terminating (but not terminating for long) station; Downsview. I think that's the lot. If you count the Greenwood Yard separately, that's above ground too (the other yards are in the vicinity of existing above ground stations already listed).

Streetcars open on only one side. All streetcar operations require a turn-around loop terminal. Sometimes these loops integrate directly into the fare-paid area of a subway station (Dundas West, St.Clair West, St.Clair, Broadview, Main Street, Spadina stations), but not always (any subway station south of the Bloor-Danforth subway line that connects with a streetcar line except Union Station).


----------



## Accura4Matalan

Toronto's subway was great. Very clean and very functional.


----------



## Coffee Stain

great pics there :cheers: 

And finally Subway is being extended to and even past York University!!


----------



## jeicow

The streetcar cables always seem so strange. W/e I'm downtown I never notice them, but in pictures they always stand our. strange.


----------



## DonQui

Thanks for the pics, but those subway cars look hideous! This is more than compensated by those streetcars though. :drool:


----------



## Skybean

Well, they are very simplistic. If you take a look at those used in Europe or even Asia, they are more aesthetically pleasing in my opinion. They get the job done and frequency is OKAY.

The problem is that the system lacks funding. Bus service is bad. 20+ minutes for some routes (if one bus does not come.. you can wait for 30+ minutes). Sometimes walking is faster.


----------



## DonQui

Skybean said:


> Well, they are very simplistic. If you take a look at those used in Europe or even Asia, they are more aesthetically pleasing in my opinion. They get the job done and frequency is OKAY.
> 
> The problem is that the system lacks funding. Bus service is bad. 20+ minutes for some routes (if one bus does not come.. you can wait for 30+ minutes). Sometimes walking is faster.


Well in Manhattan that is not as much of a problem, but the outerburroughs you sometimes get that. I think every North American system is like that to a certain extent, when compared to our counterparts in developed Asia and Europe.

Toronto still has a fantastic system, although we must judge it in a North American context. That are several cities that are larger (*COUGH* LA *COUGH*) that have much shitter systems in the US, and some that are comparable in size to GTA (although probably a little bit smaller) that Toronto literally wipes the floor with in terms of quality and access to public transport.

If I had my way, I'd have Spaniards run our systems if only for one reason: growth. I mean, 30 miles of tunnel in 5 years? Piece of cake for them! And with more tunnels comes better systems. We have been talking about a new line under Second Avenue in Manhattan for literally HALF A CENTURY. Had we been Madrid, it would be built in the span of 2 years.


----------



## Gil

DonQui said:


> If I had my way, I'd have Spaniards run our systems if only for one reason: growth. I mean, 30 miles of tunnel in 5 years? Piece of cake for them! And with more tunnels comes better systems. We have been talking about a new line under Second Avenue in Manhattan for literally HALF A CENTURY. Had we been Madrid, it would be built in the span of 2 years.


No one seems to have posted this article from the Globe yet. Apparently Spanish red tape is a lot easier to cut through than Canadian.



> Dr. Gridlock
> 
> *Need for speed drives Madrid miracle*
> JEFF GRAY
> 
> The provincial government, about to hand over a $670-million cheque to extend Toronto's subway system deep into the wilds of York Region, proclaimed in its budget last week that the move, along with money for bus ways in Brampton and Mississauga, was the beginning of "a new era" for public transit in the Greater Toronto Area. And perhaps it is.
> 
> But opening day for the subway extension to Vaughan is, officials estimate, still at least 10 years away, provided Ottawa agrees to pay its share. And waiting another 10 years for eight measly kilometres of subway, after building only about that much in total over the previous 25 years, hardly sounds like a new era. What it sounds like is more of the same.
> 
> So what would a real new era in public transit look like? Consider Madrid, population 3 million, at the centre of a region with 5.8 million people. While Toronto took eight years to produce the stub-like, 5.5-kilometre Sheppard subway, this Spanish city and public-transit paradise has built more than 120 kilometres of subway in 10 years. And more tracks, along with new light rail lines and buses, are on the way.
> 
> Madrid's new era arrived in the mid-1990s, explains Carlos Cristobal-Pinto, director of planning for Madrid's regional transportation authority, just as the city's suburban population began to expand with increased immigration from Latin America, Eastern Europe and North Africa.
> 
> It started slowly, with a 10-kilometre extension of Madrid's circle subway line completed in 1995. But then centre-right politician Alberto Ruiz-Gallardon, now Madrid's mayor, became president of the regional government, after elections in which his party promised to build 28 kilometres of new subways in four years.
> 
> Officials in Mr. Cristobal-Pinto's agency thought the scheme was ridiculous, he said: "Twelve, 15, 20 kilometres maybe, but 28 is impossible to build in four years."
> 
> Then the government decided it really wanted 55 kilometres, not 28. And still in four years -- in time for the next election, of course. You can almost see Toronto Transit Commission engineers' heads exploding. But the unthinkable happened. Madrid actually built 56.3 kilometres, 38 new stations, all completed on time in 1999 at the cost of €1.6-billion ($2.25-billion), including vehicles.
> 
> Now, after building almost an entire TTC subway system (which has 62.6 kilometres of track), Madrid did not sit back and relax. Driven by Mr. Ruiz-Gallardon, Mr. Cristobal-Pinto said, the government promised yet another 55 kilometres, again before elections in four years. And, in 2003, at a cost of €2.8-billion ($3.9-billion), 54.6 kilometres of new subway opened for business, much of it linking suburbs southwest of central Madrid.
> 
> How can this be? Mr. Cristobal-Pinto said the government's four-year political deadlines were very clear, so his team simply found a way to make it happen. Plus, environmental assessments in Spain take only three or four months. Here in Ontario, that alone can take two years or more.
> 
> The TTC's website on the Spadina subway extension lays out the rest of Toronto's slow-motion process: After an environmental assessment, the design stage can take two to three years. Construction can take as long as four. One TTC official told me that, on the Sheppard line, designing the Sheppard-Yonge station alone took two years.
> 
> So perhaps some Spanish-style red-tape cutting over here is in order. There are other things Madrid does differently, too. While this doesn't explain the whole Madrid miracle, the transit agency has been willing to experiment with public-private partnerships. One of the new subway lines is operated by a private firm with a long-term lease, and Madrid is now building several massive underground bus interchanges, with tunnels to whisk buses out of traffic, with private investment. Many bus routes in the region are also run by private firms.
> 
> And there is also Mr. Cristobal-Pinto's agency, a broad regional transit body with, it seems, much broader powers than the proposed Greater Toronto Transit Authority, which was again promised in the provincial budget.
> 
> Back in Madrid, now with 220 kilometres of subway, they just can't stop building public transit. A €4.4-billion ($6-billion) plan, set for completion by 2007, will build another 47.4 kilometres of subway and 45 kilometres of light rail in suburban areas. And the national government, responsible for highways, plans to build 200 kilometres of bus-only lanes.
> 
> "I could keep listening to you all day," said Toronto transit consultant Ed Levy, as Mr. Cristobal-Pinto finished his presentation to a transit conference here. "And crying more copiously as I listen."
> 
> But Mr. Cristobal-Pinto seemed to have no magic secret to share with his audience. The reason for the public transit miracle seems actually quite simple: Governments in Spain have simply made public transit a priority, and voters have too.
> 
> Mr. Levy added: "The motto is strike while the iron is hot, and strike hard."


----------



## invincible

jeicow said:


> The streetcar cables always seem so strange. W/e I'm downtown I never notice them, but in pictures they always stand our. strange.


You should listen to people complain about how messy Melbourne looks for the same reason. But looking at old photos, it seems that it was once the norm to just have posts in the middle of the road to hold the cables up. Then again, horses are generally smarter at avoiding obstacles than cars.


Having doors only on one side is weird though. I'm just wondering if it's a hinderance to expansion because a lot more room is needed to turn around compared to just having a set of points at termini. The area around the unused doors provides heaps of standing room capacity too.

It's obviously a bit hard to refit the existing fleet - apart from adding doors, you'd need to add a driver's cab on the other side too.


----------



## TRZ

invincible said:


> Having doors only on one side is weird though. I'm just wondering if it's a hinderance to expansion because a lot more room is needed to turn around compared to just having a set of points at termini. The area around the unused doors provides heaps of standing room capacity too.
> 
> It's obviously a bit hard to refit the existing fleet - apart from adding doors, you'd need to add a driver's cab on the other side too.


That's the thing though, the one-side doors are ONLY an issue for termini design. Usually, the easiest way to deal with it, and is done very frequently in the downtown core, is to have the streetcar go around the block. Simple, done, and everybody is happy. 
The system is using tracks that were once using horses, keep in mind (well, technically not true since tracks get relaid, but the routes were the same streets). I think there are extremely old pictures predating the almagated TTC where some transit providers were horse driven and others streetcar run, in the same photo.
There hasn't been a lot of expansion since the Spadina Line streetcar (known to locals as the 510, its route number (all streetcar lines are 500-series numbers)). Upgrading the lines has been more of a concern since most of the network has no ROW. A lot of track repair has been happening over the last decade too, eating up available funds that might have allowed some small expansion. The big project right now is turning the St. Clair line (the 512) into a ROW, which it currently isn't.


----------



## Jayayess1190

www.emdx.org





chrisnolan.ca/archive/ID/00000581


----------



## furrycanuck

This is gorgeous DrJoe but I don't see why you describe the TTC as "bare bones." It's fantastic.


----------



## UD2

for those who complain about the "sometimes" 20 minutes plus wait for TTC busses.

I live on Leslie street, go and check the time table for the Route 51 Leslie bus. if we only have to wait for 20 minutes then we're lucky.

But on the bright side, TTC is on the trend of replacin the entire fleet with with hybird busses. At least the entire Flyer 84-87s. 

I think when they said barebone, it's meant in a functional manner. No fancy deesigns or anything, just a box that moves people. Be it an advanced box.


----------



## ♣628.finst

UD2 said:


> I think when they said barebone, it's meant in a functional manner. No fancy deesigns or anything, just a box that moves people. Be it an advanced box.


TTC uses mainly old stock... they certainly need to be replaced within 15 years.

Even Edmonton metro looks a bit more modern than TTC--- as well as functional.


----------



## UD2




----------



## UD2

Xäntårx said:


> TTC uses mainly old stock... they certainly need to be replaced within 15 years.
> 
> Even Edmonton metro looks a bit more modern than TTC--- as well as functional.


The TTC didn't make a single order between 1991 and 1999.

But they are seriously stressing now.

Between 2002 and 2005, they ordered 800 Orion 7s. I mentioned before they were going to replace the Flyer D-901s, I was wrong. Looks like they are on their way of finally loosing their GMC New Looks and Classics. Ofcourse The D-901s will be gone, along with the D-40-87/88/90

TTC did order some Flyer D-40 LFs, but it looks like they are favouring the Orion 7s.

New Flyer D-40 LF











Orion 7


----------



## UD2

the TTC got around 50 Nova RTS series busses. They were built to New York Transit standards. I wouldn't be surprised if these are NY surplus orders. The TTC was so desperate in that period that they would've taken anything.

There are beautiful busses, only had the chance to take them once. Loved it. 

Only one order was made, after than the TTC moved on to low floor models.


----------



## GO_Rider

*New Hybrid bus for TTC!*

http://www.orionbus.com/orion/0-867-557917-1-607400-1-0-0-0-0-1-10609-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html

Toronto Transit Commission Today Received First Vehicle for Fleet of 150 Orion Hybrid Buses


Orion VII Hybrid Electric
Toronto, Ontario (April 20, 2006) – Today, the Toronto Transit Commission receives the first hybrid electric bus from Orion Bus Industries, a division of DaimlerChrysler Commercial Buses North America. In a ceremony held today at Nathan Phillips Square, Member of Parliament Mike Wallace, Ontario Minister of Transportation Harinder Takhar, and Toronto Mayor David Miller will accept the first vehicle of a fleet of 150 hybrid electric buses. These buses will be the TTC’s first hybrid models and will give Toronto the largest hybrid electric bus fleet in Canada.










----
By the time all 800 or so Orion VII buses are delivered, this will replace the GM New Look as the most represented type in the TTC fleet.


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## elkram

I just stumbled across somebody's photo from March 2006 of an older subway car that had an orange stripe below the passengers windows. Does anybody know why the new livery?

Cheers,
Chris


----------



## York Transit

They're subway cars from the 1960-1970's that were retired and brought back to life as work cars.


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## Bertez

^^so they are using those rust-buckets now??


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## Smelser

Whatever it's faults may be, I am sure that the Toronto Transit system is much more mature and much more functional than Vancouver's.

What is the availability of washroooms to TTC users? This is a beef of mine because suburban transit users in Vancouver may have to endure as much as a 1.5 to 2 hour trip without access to washrooms. If that's not doable, they had better get back in their cars!


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## York Transit

ratoronto said:


> There is a rumour circulating that the Toronto Transit Commission is in negotiations to donate a large number of their old TTC Streetcars to Havana, Cuba. Anyone have more info?


Yep, it was the recently retired 1991 CNG Buses. The ones with the humps on the roof. A lot of them got vandalized when they were parked in a parking lot in the north end of Toronto.


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## Skybean

I don't really like the low floor buses. 

For one, it seems as if there is less standing room. Also visibility is poorer for passengers inside the bus (you can no longer look over the top of surrounding cars if you on the lower plane). On the otherhand, accessbility for the handicapped is much greater due to the ability to kneel.


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## allurban

Smelser said:


> What is the availability of washroooms to TTC users? This is a beef of mine because suburban transit users in Vancouver may have to endure as much as a 1.5 to 2 hour trip without access to washrooms. If that's not doable, they had better get back in their cars!


Well, there are washrooms at all terminal stations and the main interchange at Bloor/Yonge....

cheers, m


----------



## hkskyline

*TTC to reconsider controversial seat layout
Second look prompted by recent arrests of 17 terrorism suspects in Toronto area *
18 July 2006
The Globe and Mail

The recent arrests of 17 terrorism suspects in the Toronto area, along with deadly bombings on rail transit around the world, have led the Toronto Transit Commission to take another look at a controversial seat layout for its new subway cars. 

Called perimeter seating, the proposed arrangement would line the sides of the next generation of subway cars with bench-like seats, removing the nooks and crannies of the current layout where, TTC officials say, terrorists could more easily hide bombs. Common on new subway systems in Europe and Asia, the layout was panned when first proposed in March to the nine-member commission of city councillors that oversees the TTC. Howard Moscoe, chairman of the TTC, said then that the change would turn Toronto's subway vehicles into “cattle cars.” The design of the new cars went ahead without it. 

But the TTC's acting chief general manager, Gary Webster, said the TTC felt duty bound to reintroduce the idea after the arrests of 17 terrorism suspects in the Toronto area last month. He wants the commission, at its meeting tomorrow, to reconsider perimeter seating. “When the events occurred, the recent arrests in June occurred in Toronto . . . that was the final issue for us,” Mr. Webster said yesterday, adding that the TTC hoped to get more input from the public on the proposed change. 

He said police, fire and ambulance workers favour perimeter seating, because it is easier to move through subway cars quickly in an emergency. The cars are also easier to evacuate than the current fleet, Mr. Webster said. 

The cars would have a little more standing room and would be easier to navigate, he said. And if done right, he added, passengers wouldn't feel like animals: “We don't want a cattle car in Toronto.” 

But the TTC's outspoken chairman remains opposed. Mr. Moscoe said yesterday he isn't convinced that making it easier to spot packages would make the transit system any safer, given that the TTC finds 30,000 unattended parcels on the system every year. 

“So, we make packages visible, what then? Everyone can see the bomb explode?” 

He predicted a public outcry if the TTC installs perimeter seating. 

“If they need to look into nooks and crannies, put up mirrors,” Mr. Moscoe said. “But to make thousands of passenger rides uncomfortable and essentially degrade the system, for alleged reasons of safety, unless you can actually do something about safety, means nothing.” 

Terrorists have targeted commuter rail lines or subway systems in Madrid, London and, most recently, Mumbai. However, the TTC was not identified as a target in the arrests of the Toronto suspects. 

Toronto's plan to buy 234 subway cars, at a cost of up to $705-million, has also been controversial because of the commission's decision to enter exclusive talks with Bombardier to build the cars at its Thunder Bay plant without seeking bids from other firms. 

Mr. Moscoe and Mayor David Miller defend the deal as a way to protect jobs in Ontario. Several right-leaning critics on city council have demanded that the contract be opened up to competition after German-based competitor Siemens said it could save the city at least $100-million, partly by building the cars in China. 

The first new cars, to replace the chunk of the fleet that dates from the 1970s, are supposed to go into service in 2009. Talks with Bombardier on the design of the car, extended after a six-month deadline came and went, are now up against a tight timeline as the TTC hopes to have the project approved at city council's September meeting — the last chance before the Nov. 13 election. 

Also tomorrow, Mr. Moscoe, a key ally of Toronto's left-leaning mayor, is expected to face a no-confidence motion in his leadership of the TTC. 

The call for Mr. Moscoe to step down, which is expected to fail, comes in the wake of the illegal strike that shut down the TTC in May and the abrupt departure of TTC chief general manager Rick Ducharme.


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## Skybean

Nice. I think the TTC should take design cues from the MTR - the epitome of efficiency


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## kashyap3

ttc should expand its subway or build other forms of mass transit, like the scarbough rt
if subways aren't a reality, look at other rail options


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## hkskyline

*TTC turns down perimeter seating*
Commission rebuffs engineers' request to consider terrorism in planning new cars 
JEFF GRAY 
With a report from Oliver Moore
20 July 2006
The Globe and Mail

The Toronto Transit Commission rebuffed a request from its engineers yesterday to consider the threat of terrorism in deciding on the seating layout of the next generation of subway cars. 

Plans for so-called perimeter seating, which would see the walls of the new subway cars lined with benches, were dismissed earlier this year by TTC chairman Howard Moscoe and other commissioners. Mr. Moscoe likened the design to a “cattle car.” 

Yesterday, TTC staff asked them to reconsider, arguing that perimeter seating would eliminate the nooks and crannies of the current layout and make it more difficult to conceal a bomb. 

Mr. Moscoe and other commissioners said they doubted whether the seat layout would make Toronto any safer from terrorists. 

“We're going to make the car a safe as possible, but we're not doing it at the expense of the riding public,” he said. 

Even as the commission considered the relevance of terrorism to the TTC, the bomb squad was busy on Dundas Street West where police cordoned off the normally busy block on the north side of the Eaton Centre for more than two hours at midday. 

“It was just a suspicious package, there was no threat called in,” said 52 Division's Staff-Sergeant Alex Belgrade. 

The item turned out to be harmless: A non-descript pair of dark trousers falling from a yellow No Frills bag as it was lifted off the ground by the bomb squad's robot. Traffic was allowed through the area again shortly after 1:30 p.m. 

“The pants were probably entered as property,” Staff-Sergeant Belgrade said. 

Meanwhile, Mr. Moscoe survived an attempt to knock him from his post as commissioners voted down a no-confidence motion accusing him of meddling in the TTC's troubled labour relations. 

The motion from commissioners Bill Saundercook and Mark Grimes urged the TTC to dump Mr. Moscoe for interfering in relations between the union and management before and after the illegal strike that paralyzed the system on May 29. 

TTC chief general manager Rick Ducharme resigned shortly after, accusing Mr. Moscoe of “political interference” in labour relations. 

The motion failed 5-3, after commissioners loyal to the outspoken chairman — a key ally of Mayor David Miller — voted to keep him in his post. 

After the vote, Mr. Grimes stood up and resigned as a commissioner, saying he could no longer serve with Mr. Moscoe as chair. 

“Obviously my voice is not going to be heard,” Mr. Grimes said. 

Also at yesterday's meeting, the commission members voted to cover $1,189 in travel expenses for commissioner Sandra Bussin, an ally of Mr. Moscoe's. 

She flew back from a personal trip to Florida to attend an emergency TTC meeting called to deal with Mr. Ducharme's resignation.


----------



## samsonyuen

I like the permiter seating. It lets more people in the car (or more room for each person).


----------



## edubejar

I've only read so far the first messages on this thread, which I entered bc I'm visiting Toronto for the first time and I'm all about seeing things in advance about Toronto. Some Toronto members need to calm down about comments regarding the Toronto subway cars which some didn't like. While it's true that the primary purpose of a subway train is to carry people from point A to point B, there is nothing wrong with aspiring to a nicer, more sleak look. I'm POSITIVE that most people from Toronto (as well as NYC and Chicago) would prefer to have nicer, sleaker looking trains if they could. And just because it runs undergound doesn't mean that it can't look better...there is ALWAYS room for improvement.


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## monkeyronin

King Station as planned in the 1920s.









The proposed map from the same era.









Early perimeter seating as it would have appeared on one of the older trains. looks good, but why so narrow?









The old Gloucesters.









Back in the 70s when the silver metallic train design first came into use.


----------



## Skybean

Surprisingly this is not too far off from what most stations look like today...


----------



## degnaw

monkeyronin said:


> Early perimeter seating as it would have appeared on one of the older trains. looks good, but why so narrow?


Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the scarborough rt?


----------



## Smelser

KGB said:


> "The RT cars are indeed a piece of shite, no idea how anyone can like them."
> 
> Well, their linear induction motors and driverless automation was a novelty back in the day I guess (and this was a compromise from the mag lev technology the Ontario government was working on). You should check out what some of the Vancouverite forumers have to say about it (they have the excact same thing)...they are calling it "the most advanced transit system in the world" LOL!!!
> 
> KGB


I realize that this comment was made several years ago, but I just noticed this thread today and couldn't help myself. This is so very true, Vancouverites live in total denial about Skytrain's capabilities, and that of LRT generally. 

Here we got the automated LRT system designed by UTDC, a once-upon-a-time Ontario Govt Crown Corp as Skytrain in time for the 1986 Expo, which was officially a transportation exhibition! Why was this system chosen, and why was it put into service over a nearly 30km distance from downtown Vancouver to North Surrey. The answer of course is politics. Premier Bill Bennett had won the 1979 provincial election by a narrow margin, and wanted to secure his position by hiring new, highly talented political operatives. These he obtained from the Ontario Conservatives, the Big Blue Machine, in the persons of Jerry Lampert and Patrick Kinsella. In exchange, the BC Govt decided, over objections from local officials, to purchase the Ontario Crown Corp's ALRT system, which to that point had no significant sales.

Bennett's Science Minister, UBC Professor Pat McGeer also liked the fact that the trains would be automated. There would be no bus drivers who could go on strike. It was the same decision making criteria McGeer postulated in touting a fixed link to Vancouver Island, there would be no ferry workers who could go on strike. The fixed link project was later shown in BC Govt studies to require tolls of around $200, instead of the current $50 or so on the BC Ferries. Here was another, explicitly political rationale for choosing the Ontario ALRT equipment. 

The Toronto Transit Commission was leery of the system and never let it get beyond one small spur line. And I understand that the Scarborourgh RT line does have drivers, because in Ontarion they didn't want to spook the riders by asking them board pilotless craft.

I hope this will help spur discussion, but I have to go now.


----------



## LordMandeep

Vancouver is a nice city but even having a small highway would have solved all of the city's traffic problems.


----------



## Jayayess1190

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_subway_and_RT*



*http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/spadina_extension/prefered_alignment.htm*



http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5511.shtml

 

*This artists conception, taken from the TTC’s website, illustrates one feature the mockup car was unable to encapsulate. The proposed trains are to feature cabs which stretch the width of the car. The TTC official on duty admitted that a number of people had complained about the loss of the “railfan” window allowing passengers to look out the front of the train.*



* Another shot of the gangway effect. Photo by Gordon Keith.*



* This image, taken from the TTC website, illustrates possible internal colour schemes that passengers could choose between. Scheme 1 is obviously closest to that of the T-1, and the internal appearance of the mock-up. The other schemes do not match the internal configuration of the mockup or feature only unpopular side-facing seats. One wonders which scheme passengers favoured.*



*Another feature of that the mock-up car was not able to simulate was the evacuation ramp out of the front of the train, allowing passengers, including those on wheelchairs, to quickly reach track level.*



One of the bells and whistles displayed on the mockup is this LED version of the TTC’s subway map. Coloured lights will tell riders where they are on the network, where they are going, and where the doors will open at the next stop.



The red X indicates that doors will open on the opposite side. The green arrow indicates the doors will open on this side.


----------



## monkeyronin

degnaw said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the scarborough rt?


hmm, I guess it would be now that you mention it.


----------



## Skybean

Regarding "bells and whistles" of animated signboard maps: Many modern subway systems have had this for *years. *


----------



## degnaw

That is a lot of people...

How would everyone even fit on the train (I am in favor of perimeter seating, as it makes it less of a cattle car for those who can't get a seat), even if everyone was standing? how many trains would have to go by (which might already be full) before everyone in the picture could get on?


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## yin_yang

degnaw said:


> That is a lot of people...
> 
> How would everyone even fit on the train (I am in favor of perimeter seating, as it makes it less of a cattle car for those who can't get a seat), even if everyone was standing? how many trains would have to go by (which might already be full) before everyone in the picture could get on?


that's probably an isolated incident...i've lived here for 10 years and i've only seen it like that a few times. but to answer your question, if the train cars were empty, it would probably take 2 or 3 of them to get everybody on...


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## mr.x




----------



## allurban

Ive been told by the Transit Toronto people that there is a lot of side-side shaking and vibration.

Anyone have any information or experience riding the peopel mover?

I wont get to ride it until december, unfortunately.

Cheers, m


----------



## allurban

toronto has a lot of ravines and river valleys...some oriented north-south, and some oriented east-west 

So the roads often go up and down whereas the subway stays pretty level...but can be above or underground as needed.

Bloor-Danforth line, for example, is "above" ground between Old Mill and Jane (the Humber River Valley), between High Park and Dundas West (dunno the valley name), and between Castle Frank and Broadview (the Don River Valley)

At other points it is reasonably "at grade" (west of Islington, between Runnymede and High Park, Victoria Park to Warden) or under ground.

Cheers, m


----------



## gutooo

Is that new?


----------



## samsonyuen

It opened this year. It looks really nice, the stations not ceaped out. The track looks neat. What technology does it use?


----------



## allurban

Operating since April 2006, I believe.

Cheers, m


----------



## degnaw

mr.x said:


>


What is that bus? it doesnt match the livery of ttc (red and white), mississauga (orange and white), GO (green-ish), brampton, york, etc transit systems


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## DrJoe

I think it is just an airport (GTAA) bus.


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## Martinsizon

it opened on July 6, 2006


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## Gil

^^ The blue bus does the shuttle runs where the People Mover does not go, linking Terminal 2 to the other two terminals, cargo terminals, infield terminal, administration building, plus the on-street stops along the internal roads to pick up walk-in traffic.


----------



## alta-bc

How is it powered? It looks like it is drawn by a cable... how does it work? Are the trains permanently attached to the cable?

Someone please enlighten me!


----------



## DrJoe

Yes I believe they are drawn by cable but have no idea on how it all works.


----------



## allurban

I believe it is a GTAA 'Link' bus. If you look at the bus window closely I think you can see the shadow of the luggage racks. I think the bus is a newer model Orion low-floor model.

As for the GTAA rail 'Link'...

two completely separate trains on two completely separate tracks pulled by two independent cable systems.

Doppelmayer Cable Car designed it.

Cheers, m


----------



## Filip

That thing shakes incredibly! Dear God, if I hadn't sat down I'd be somewhere on that window...


----------



## hkskyline

*Subway deal in for rough ride: critic: 
Council still must vote on untendered contract for cars *
James Cowan 
National Post
2 September 2006

Toronto city council is unlikely to "rubber stamp" a $674-million untendered contract for new subway cars, an opponent of the deal said yesterday. 

Transit commissioners unanimously approved the contract with Bombardier this week, but Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong said the issue will not receive the same easy ride when council debates it this month. 

"Councillors are a lot more critical of the deal than the commission is," Mr. Minnan-Wong said, noting a motion calling for the contract to be opened to competitive bids came within a few votes of passing at July's council meeting. 

"If that vote is any indication, it is not going to be a cakewalk," Mr. Minnan-Wong said. 

The decision to negotiate a deal with Bombardier for 234 subway cars without accepting competing bids sparked months of heated debate. Rick Ducharme, the TTC's former chief general manager, cited the decision to "sole source" as a reason for his resignation this summer. 

Mr. Minnan-Wong said some of his colleagues are concerned about Mr. Ducharme's allegations that TTC chairman Howard Moscoe meddled in the contract process while others simply object to a multi-million deal going untendered. 

"There's a lot of money on the table," Mr. Minnan-Wong said. "It's $700-million, which means the potential savings could be $10-million, $50-million, some people have even suggested $100-million." 

Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker, a transit commissioner, conceded many of his fellow politicians were worried at first about the untendered contract. 

"I think, at the face of it, a lot of councillors said, 'Let's put it out to public tender. I don't want to get ripped off,' " Mr. De Baeremaeker said. 

A review of Bombardier's final bid by a pair of independent consultants should alleviate their concerns, he said. 

An analysis prepared by Booz Allen Hamilton Inc. concluded that the price was "fair and reasonable by industry standards." The consultants also say there is "no guarantee" of a better price if the process were opened to competition. 

"Bombardier's overall price is already in the public domain, so all firms bidding will start with that as a price," they argued. 

Mr. De Baeremaeker predicted councillors will vote "two-to-one" for the deal, thanks to the assurances offered by the consultants' reports, along with an endorsement from TTC staff. 

"Those are very powerful reports," he said. "What Bombardier did was give us a really good product at a really good price." 

According to TTC staff, the Canadian manufacturer's final bid of $2.1-million per car means the city will pay $45-million less than budgeted. 

Mr. De Baeremaeker accused right-wing councillors of exploiting the debate over the contract to attack Mayor David Miller as November's municipal election approaches. 

"They are doing everything they can to make this guy look bad," the councillor said. 

But Mr. Minnan-Wong suggested the Mayor has endorsed the Bombardier deal for his own political reasons. 

"I think he has made some commitments to the CAW to try and win this contract. He relies on them for a great deal of support," the councillor said. 

The subway cars will be manufactured in Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant. They will be on Toronto tracks by 2009.


----------



## allurban

Just wanted to remind people about the GTA transit forum beginning November 3.

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/transitforum/ has more information about it

Cheers, m


----------



## allurban

*http://transitforum.ca/*



allurban said:


> Just wanted to remind people about the GTA transit forum beginning November 3.
> 
> http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/transitforum/ has more information about it


more information can also be found at http://transitforum.ca/

Cheers, m


----------



## hkskyline

*The commuter blues
Can public transit ever truly compete with the car?
*JEFF GRAY 
28 October 2006
The Globe and Mail

WHY IT MATTERS 

Traffic congestion costs commuters time, businesses money, and hurts the environment. And if you think it's bad now, the city's traffic problems are set to dramatically worsen. 

In the 416 area code alone, the city expects at least half a million new residents by 2021; hundreds of thousands more are expected to settle in the 905. If most of them drive to work, the road network — already at capacity, for the most part — could grind to a halt. Meanwhile, widening roads attracts more cars, city traffic planners say, merely creating a wider traffic jam. 

And it's not just a headache for drivers. 

A recent study suggested traffic jams cost the city's economy close to $1.8-billion a year in lost productivity. And a survey for the Board of Trade of 100 Toronto-area chief executive officers said they were more likely to cite public transit and transportation as a top priority for municipal politicians — even more pressing than lowering taxes or fighting crime. 

Downsview subway station, where Mayor David Miller chose to tell the media about his public-transit policies this past week, has almost no workplaces or homes within walking distance. It is, for now, a subway to nowhere. 

“We're standing at the end of the subway line,” Mr. Miller told a dozen shivering reporters, as cars whizzed by on Sheppard Avenue West. “But this isn't where Toronto ends.” 

His point: The province has pegged the Spadina subway line for a $2-billion expansion north to York University and beyond, but vast swaths of the Toronto suburbs and the 905 belt will still remain lengthy bus rides away from anything resembling rapid transit. 

Toronto's official plan calls for an end to “car dependency” and says the expected new growth in population must be accommodated on public transit, with higher-density land-use planning. 

But that would require massive amounts of new money for the Toronto Transit Commission — money the city doesn't have. Excluding the proposed Spadina extension, the cash now coming from the federal and provincial governments, the transit agency says, is only enough to maintain the current system for the next few years — not expand it. 

“You can do that [add population], but if you don't add more transit, you're going to make our riders feel like sardines,” said Michael Roche, the TTC's chief financial officer. “Many already do.” 

The recession and the funding cuts of the 1990s, which forced the transit agency to hike fares faster than inflation, sent ridership into a downward spiral. But now, with the economy growing, ridership is shooting up well ahead of TTC predictions. The last three years have seen the TTC raise fares twice. But it has also frozen its monthly passes, effectively making them cheaper, and begun allowing multiple people to use the same pass. 

In addition to replacing hundreds of aging buses, the TTC has ordered 100 extra new ones in an effort to attract riders. The new buses are meant to make service more frequent on forlorn suburban routes outside of rush hour. But attracting more riders also means more demands on the service. 

Transit systems in the sprawling 905 belt around Toronto, which are dwarfed by the TTC, have started modest expansions, such as York Region's Viva rapid bus system. GO Transit continues to grow each year, its new parking lots filling up almost as soon as they are paved. It remains to be seen what effect the province's new regional transportation authority will have. It's meant to co-ordinate transit systems and establish a common high-tech fare-collection system. 

WHAT THE CITY SHOULD DO 

Mr. Miller's proposed plan for public transit assumes that senior levels of government won't shower Toronto with billions more in cash for public transit, on top of the hundreds of millions in gas-tax funds. So he wants to do something much cheaper than billion-dollar subways, with the potential to give far more people, especially those who live far from the subway line, the option of leaving their cars its home. 

Based on existing TTC plans, his scheme involves building special lanes, separated from traffic, for buses and streetcars or newer, larger light-rail vehicles, on Yonge Street north of Finch, Kingston Road, Don Mills Road, on the waterfront and elsewhere. (The savings are attractive: Light-rail can cost as little as one-tenth the price of a subway line, and is enjoying a boom in cities across North America.) 

The mayor's projects would resemble the right-of-way lanes now being built on St. Clair Avenue, where the idea has proven controversial; some businesses and residents fought it tooth and nail, arguing that it would put a chokehold on traffic flow. 

Both of Mr. Miller's main mayoral opponents, Jane Pitfield and Stephen LeDrew, insist subways are still the answer. Ms. Pitfield, who announced her transportation platform amid the construction on St. Clair, wants the city to build two kilometres every year, which she says would cost $100-million a kilometre — way below most projections, which put the price at more than $200-million a kilometre. She argues she would be better able than Mr. Miller to persuade other governments to help pay for it. 

Ideally, says long-time transit consultant Edward Levy, a senior partner at the BA Consulting Group, the city should be building both light-rail systems and new subways, if it somehow found the money. 

In some places, he says, going underground is necessary. Along Eglinton Avenue, for example, a light-rail line wouldn't work; the street crosses the centre of the city, where the street is narrower but densities are higher. “You have to go underground [for a distance of] about six kilometres, at least,” Mr. Levy says. “And it ain't cheap.” 

But in suburban areas like Vaughan, he argues, the promised high-density development is unlikely to materialize in the quantity required to justify an expensive underground train. 

On other streets, light-rail or buses in their own rights-of-way are smart ways to spread rapid transit around the city, Mr. Levy says, agreeing with Mr. Miller's plan. But subways needn't be so expensive either, he said. He blames TTC inefficiencies and a molasses-like environmental assessment process, as well as bickering between levels of government, for the sluggishness of Toronto's ability to build new transit lines. 

And he agrees with an idea put forward by Ms. Pitfield: The TTC should have citizen representatives — preferably with some business expertise — on the commission, which is now made up solely of city councillors. Or better yet, he argues, empower a regional agency with its own sources of revenue to build transit across the greater Toronto area. This would amount to a souped-up version of the province's new Greater Toronto Transportation Authority, which Mr. Levy says is for now “just a shell” with little power. 

Meanwhile, no politician — and certainly no leading mayoral contender — is going so far as to suggest looking at the other side of the transportation ledger, and consider measures aimed directly at drivers, such as tolls. Mr. Miller, who was roundly criticized for musing about tolls in the 2003 election, now routinely dismisses any suggestion of charging drivers. 

Mr. Levy believes drivers are going to have to accept some changes in order to keep the streets moving as the city grows. But at the end of the day, he says, public transit will always have to co-exist with the car: “Let's face it, auto culture is not going to go away.” 

CASE STUDY 

Blood on the tracks: The battle over St. Clair 

If Mayor David Miller wants a firsthand look at how neighbourhoods across the city might respond to his public transit plans, he only has to head to Ward 21, St. Paul's, where the furor over dedicated streetcar lanes is the No. 1 election issue. 

There, St. Clair Avenue has been turned into a giant, traffic-snarling ditch as crews build two right-of-way lanes, separated from traffic, in a controversial project that is still opposed by a vocal group of residents and businesses and was even delayed by a court challenge. 

Championing the project is incumbent councillor Joe Mihevc, a TTC commissioner and key ally of Mr. Miller. Mr. Mihevc's most prominent challenger, former Toronto mayor John Sewell, opposes the lanes, saying the new street will be hostile to pedestrians and arguing there are better ways to boost public transit. 

A main street torn up by construction is clearly not what Mr. Mihevc wants to be talking about on doorsteps in the middle of an election campaign. “I foresaw this, right, that this was going to be construction hell, and that I was going to wear it,” Mr. Mihevc says. “My counterparts, colleagues in this campaign are basically making hay of it.” 

He says the new system, which he describes as “almost an above-ground subway,” will dramatically increase the reliability of streetcars, since they will no longer get stuck in traffic. That will mean fewer long waits and a time savings, on average, of 15 per cent of a rider's trip, he said. 

The new lanes, Mr. Mihevc asserted, are needed to keep pace with higher-density development along St. Clair, which he says would otherwise mean gridlock. 

Mr. Sewell couldn't disagree more. His campaign is getting a lift from members of Save Our St. Clair, an anti-right-of-way group that fought the project in court. He says the current plan reduces the size of sidewalks and reduces parking (things Mr. Mihevc disputes). Mr. Sewell instead proposes that cars should only be banned from the streetcar lanes, and prevented from making left turns, during rush hour. 

“You can't cross the street,” he says of the new St. Clair. To build the dedicated lanes, “you have to widen the road space, narrow the sidewalk, get rid of the parking.” 

In Mr. Mihevc's view, nothing short of the future of public transit in Toronto is at stake in his ward. If he loses the election over the St. Clair battle, he thinks councillors in other wards where the lanes are proposed — many of which are in the suburbs — may lose their nerve. 

“I think I'm going to win,” he said recently. “But if I lose, then you tell me: Who's going to have the guts? Politicians by nature are not gutsy people.” 

TWO CITIES, TWO SOLUTIONS 

London: In 2003, Mayor Ken Livingstone brought in a controversial £8 ($17) “congestion charge” for motorists entering the central city in an effort to clear up traffic paralysis in the British capital. The government credits the move with reducing congestion by 30 per cent. At the same time, London brought in hundreds of new buses that could now actually move on its streets. A public-private partnership is also overhauling some of the city's subway lines. 

Madrid: 

The Spanish capital, with a population of 3 million, at the centre of a region with 5.8 million people, has become the wonder of the public-transit world for building 120 kilometres of subway — or almost twice the length of Toronto's current total tracks — in just 10 years, at a fraction of the cost estimated for subways here. TTC officials and transit experts on this side of the Atlantic have been scratching their heads and are studying how the Spaniards did it.


----------



## Jean Luc

Homer J. Simpson said:


> Scarborough RT - 6.4 km, 6 stations, partly elevated and partly at grade (around Ellesmere and Lawrence East stations)


Why was this line built, instead of the subway line simply being extended along the same route? As it is now passengers have to make a change from one to the other, which they wouldn't have to if the subway had been extended.


----------



## allurban

Jean Luc said:


> Why was this line built, instead of the subway line simply being extended along the same route? As it is now passengers have to make a change from one to the other, which they wouldn't have to if the subway had been extended.


It's a long, sad, yet interesting story.

Basically, the subway reached their terminals at the relative end of what was then Metropolitan Toronto, in the early 1980s.

The east end terminus was at Kennedy Rd., and the west end terminus was at Kipling Ave. TTC had planned for a light rail network using light rail technology based on the CLRV design (the streetcars running through downtown Toronto). The service would extend north and east into Scarborough from Kennedy Station, and north and west into Etobicoke from Kipling Station.

The provincial government seized on this as an opportunity to demonstrate a new railway technology developed by a government-linked corporation, UTDC. The new technology was higher cost and TTC said no...so the Provincial Government offered to fully fund the line if it were converted from Streetcar technology to the new LIM technology.

Check out the whole story here at

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5107.shtml

There are many different views on the use of this technology...the TTC never used it fully, by keeping drivers on the trains. It also cost more, and some say it prevented further expansion of the system into Scarborough. The west end LRT never came into being either. 

Now the SRT is breaking down (gone by 2015). A committee examining the issue made a recommendation to adopt the modern ART Mark II technology, again rejecting the CLRV option, and rejecting the idea of a subway to Scarborough Town Centre.

As for not extending the subway further...well, in 1980 it didnt seem necessary to build a subway further east or west...as for today, subways are now being viewed by some as being too costly for Toronto, which has no capital funding and no operations subsidy from higher levels of government.

Cheers, m

ps. The LIM technology in its original form was later sold to Vancouver and Detroit. The modern form, now designed by Bombardier, is being used as an ICTS in Vancouver and Kuala Lumpur and will also be used for ICTS by a city in Korea. It also operates in the Aerotrain at JFK Airport in New York, and the future link between Beijing's Airport and Railway station.

You can get the information about the system from Bombardier's website.mya


----------



## CANAUS

^^^ 95% of construction to be completed by 2020 as well.


----------



## Electrify

> GO Richmond Hill rail line extension to Aurora Road


Shame it will probably be completed after I move out, but there were/are plans to build a GO Station where the tracks pass 19th and Bayview Ave, which is about a 20 minute walk away from me at most. Even if it didn't have all day trains, it would most likely have all day buses, and it would make getting into Toronto so much easier than the Viva/TTC combo.

Besides that, it looks good. I just wonder if there should be more investment in BRT, since I am skeptical of LRT's performance through right of ways in the middle of the road (separated grade though is okay). I also think the light rail plans for Hamilton should be merged into the GTA, or be run as BRT.

Though I must admit, it is kind of cute to see Hamilton try and be its own city rather than a suburb


----------



## Electrify

Another thing which I think would be a good idea, though received little fanfare in the Toronto forum would be to replace a couple of lanes on the 401 with a LRT. In theory, it would be like adding another 10 lanes to the widest expressway on earth, and would be the most efficient way of connecting Toronto with its suburbs with rapid transit.


----------



## samsonyuen

Yeah, I wonder how the air-rail link will go, and who will run it. Are the Blue 22 people still in it?


----------



## Xusein

Wow, pretty ambitious.


----------



## hamiltonguyo

Electrify said:


> I also think the light rail plans for Hamilton should be merged into the GTA, or be run as BRT.
> 
> Though I must admit, it is kind of cute to see Hamilton try and be its own city rather than a suburb



Yes because Hamilton is THAT small. 

We are the 9th Largest Census Metropolitan Area in Canada, and only 7% or so commute to the GTA. Just for your info the Hamilton CMA includes Grimsby and Burlington. 

The density of Hamilton's CMA is one of the highest in Canada.

Considering that certain areas (south of Mohawk Road, Ancaster, Upper Stone Creek, Burlington, and Grimsby) are sprawlville, and large areas are Farmland, the lower city (Where the first line is) NEEDS LRT, as it is so dense. The Cities plan is for BRT on both right now, however the Mayor has opened up the possibility of LRT on the lower city corridor now that the Province will actually pay something towards the cost.

Our City has needed Rapid Transit for a long time, and it's about time the Province wised up to the long left out 3rd city of Ontario.


----------



## TRZ

elkram said:


> Congratulations, Ontario! this all seems quite promising:
> 
> *GTA, Hamilton transit systems get $17.5B in Ont. funding*
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/06/15/transit-subway.html
> 
> I particularily like the prospect of your Lakeshore GO line becoming electrified . . .


Wanna wait until after the election before expecting anything? Like anybody takes Buddy Dalton seriously anymore... 
I mean, McGuinty chronicles, a synopsis:
2003? Poor! 
2004? POOR! 
2005? DIRT POOR! NEW TAXES! 
2006? Spare change? 
2007 (Election year)? RICH!!!! RICH I TELLS YAH! WHO'S YOUR BUDDAAAAAAY?!kay: 

hno: Election promises :blahblah: 

Even if they started construction before the election, if John Tory wins (heaven forbid), all construction would be halted immediately and all work be undone restored to the state prior to groundbreaking. That's what happened in 1995 and it would happen again. We need to learn from our history and make sure the same mistakes are not repeated. The only government that has been serious about building subways in a non-political-oriented fashion in the past 2 decades is the Rae NDP.


----------



## elkram

TRZ said:


> Wanna wait


Sorry, I wish I'd care to read the dreadful points you seem to be making. The scale of these wished transit improvements thought up by Ontario had been unheard of in this country, so I'm REALLY pleased the subject of necessary expansion's finally being brought up . . .

Yeah, I guess even beyond period(s) of construction, there's bound to be a sizably additional factor to waiting further (further, and further).


----------



## jeicow

samsonyuen said:


> Yeah, I wonder how the air-rail link will go, and who will run it. Are the Blue 22 people still in it?


From what I've been hearing on some other boards, it will likely end up being GO Service, but whether it will be the Crosstown Line or the line leading to Union, a combination of both, or a completely separate new line stub is still up in the air from what it seems. Also, the Eglinton LRT line option to run to Pearson will likely be used now that the city isn't cutting the bill for 1/3 of the costs.


----------



## Siopao

Oh gosh, up to Barrie!? this definitely knocks off Dubai's projects! haha


----------



## TRZ

samsonyuen said:


> Yeah, I wonder how the air-rail link will go, and who will run it. Are the Blue 22 people still in it?


Blue 22 died officially the other month. The Weston Community Coalition was pretty happy about the motion passing in the legislature that separated GO Transit from any involvedment with Blue 22's plans and EAs. The result means GO can go ahead with its improvements along the corridor and basically monopolize it while Blue 22 is left out to dry in the cold.

It's a pretty impressive story that shows that there is some hope out there in the system... with a catch 22 (instead of Blue 22  )- the system lets you make sure some things don't happen but it does not allow you to make sure some things do happen. You can make them stop projects but you can't make them start projects.


----------



## DrT

Great news. The way to better future. Many cities woefully underinvesting in infrastructure.
I hope that the Feds come up with their third so that construction can begin.


----------



## KGB

123 kms of new LRT lines for the City of Toronto (plus some subway extensions).

With this new provincial money (and some fed money to come), it might actually get built.







KGB


----------



## allurban

CANAUS said:


> ^^^ 95% of construction to be completed by 2020 as well.


better than that...some of the construction (for some of the GO routes) has already started...and according to sources, the government is in the process of changing the regulations for environmental assessment...which should help save time in the EA process.

stevemunro.ca has alot of interesting comments too.

Cheers, m


----------



## TRZ

The EA process has such a stupid beauracracy to it. I agree with what it is supposed to accomplish, but their method sucks tremendously and they must expedite the process considerably, it is horrible for business.

:lol: The peanut on Don Mills is so visible in that map :lol:


----------



## ssiguy2

Much of the EA process is simply a make-work project. 
As far as I'm concerned there should be no EA process on any LRT or GO rail expansion. Any tunneling EA process should be not done axssell { that word was at all.........my keyboard is swrewed up due to me spilling coffee on it} except there is an actual concern brough forward by an enviornmental group with a legitimate concern. 
htf


----------



## algonquin

KGB said:


> 123 kms of new LRT lines for the City of Toronto (plus some subway extensions).
> 
> With this new provincial money (and some fed money to come), it might actually get built.
> 
> 
> KGB


I have a dumb question here.... when they say light rail, do they just mean streetcars with ROW's? Which would be fine by me.

Man, nothing short of a subway line is suitable for Eglinton. To me, that's short-sighted.


----------



## Xelebes

LRT = like subways, just a wee bit slower I think. Also smaller? Dunno, we can have 5 cars in Edmonton in our underground LRT parts.


----------



## KGB

> I have a dumb question here.... when they say light rail, do they just mean streetcars with ROW's?



Well, since there is no universal hard and fast definition, I can only make assumptions based on the "Toronto" context. Here, the difference between a "streetcar" and an LRT, is defined by road geomentry, not vehicles or stop/station placement......basically, a streetcar runs in mixed traffic, and an LRT runs on a ROW...that's why the Harbourfront/Spadina line is/was officially refered to as LRT, and not the other streetcar routes, even though it's the same vehicles.

Remember, up til now, Toronto has used "first generation" or old school LRT....the new lines will obviously use the new second generation LRT "trains".

Another difference is that most new LRT lines are not running right down exsting streets (ROW or not), and tend to have "stations" spaced farther apart, rather than the short distances between stops that Toronto has. But all of Toronto's new lines will be replacing bus routes, and I'm not sure whether the existing stops will be the same once it's converted to LRT.

The purpose of our old streetcars are "inter-neighbourhood" transit...not high speed transit like the subways. I'm assuming these new LRT lines are intended to provide service somewhere between streetcars and subways, but to do that would require less frequent stops than exist on the routes they replace...which could be a problem, as walking distances to stops will be greater, and could have a negative effect on ridership. 

I'd be interested in knowing how they intend to handle this.





KGB


----------



## ssiguy2

I think one thing the TTC will have to do is have a different colour scheme or some such thing so that people can easily differentiate between regular streetcars and the LRT lines. 
Maybe a different vehicle, train length, different clour, or different name like TTrain or whateveer/. 
As an example GO buses are visually different from regular TTC buses or VIVA. In NA its not an issue because LRT is their own light rail system but Toronto is unique with still having an elaborate streetcar system. Translink has their successful BLines which are also very distinguishable from any other bus in the whole system due to their articulated cars and blue clour yet all other buses are red. The colour lets everone know the special bus coming without even having to wait to see the number/destination sign at the front.


----------



## TRZ

noob(but not really) said:


> Um, no. Your post is proof that you don't want serious discussion about anything. You just say "you don't know, bla bla bla".


:|

I say you don't know because I can prove you don't know. If you want to get your world smashed by a nuclear weapon's worth of backup, I'll gladly blow your argument back to the stone-age. What you posted are only small fish. The _real reasons _are in the quoted source below:



James Bow on Transit Toronto ( [url said:


> http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5104.shtml[/url] )]
> *References*
> Bromley, John F., and Jack May, _Fifty Years of Progressive Transit_, Electric Railroaders’ Association, New York (New York), 1978.
> Brown, James A. and Brian West, ‘All about the Bloor-Danforth Subway’ _UCRS Newsletter, March 1966, p50-56,_ The Upper Canada Railway Society, Toronto (Ontario), 1966.
> _Progress Report No 5: Bloor-Danforth-University Subway_, Toronto Transit Commission, Toronto (Ontario), July 1964.
> 
> Construction began on the Yonge subway in 1949 with a streetcar-subway station roughed in beneath Queen station on the Yonge line. After the Yonge subway opened in 1954, attention turned to the east-west line, but things had changed since 1946.
> 
> For one thing, streetcars had fallen out of favour as a rapid transit medium, and the City of Toronto’s plans for a Queen subway now called for heavy-rail equipment to be used. For another, the TTC was having second thoughts about locating the cross-town line along Queen.
> 
> *Queen versus Bloor*
> 
> Politically, the City of Toronto wanted a subway on Queen Street. Queen was the main east-west street running through the downtown, and on that basis the east-west subway had to go there. However, the TTC’s figures showed that ridership on the Bloor streetcar line was increasing rapidly, to almost 9000 passengers per direction per hour. Automobile traffic on Bloor Street and Danforth Avenue was increasing as well, pushing the multiple-unit PCCs to their limits, just as Yonge’s Witt trailer trains had been when the decision had been made to build the first subway beneath them.
> 
> The ‘Flying-U’ Proposal.
> 
> So, the TTC felt it had no choice but to build the cross-town subway along the Bloor-Danforth corridor. But this change in plan was controversial. The City of Toronto, backed by the towns of Long Branch, New Toronto and Mimico, continued to push for a Queen subway. At one point, the city proposed a ‘flying U’ compromise, running from Keele along Bloor, Grace, Queen, Pape, and Danforth Avenue to Woodbine. Dundas would have had four subway stops in total had this route been built, and the TTC were hard pressed to name them. From west to east, these stations would have been named ‘Vincent’ (now Dundas West), Bellwoods Park, Dundas and Dagmar.
> 
> Eventually the TTC proposal won out. Although I have not been able to find out how the TTC convinced the City of Toronto to accept its proposal, I speculate that the fact that the TTC was still financially independent helped. The Yonge subway had been built almost entirely from farebox revenues, and it looked as though the cross-town subway was going to be built from farebox revenues as well. Since the TTC did not require subsidy from Metropolitan Toronto, they may have been shielded from political pressure.






noob(but not really) said:


> Actually, that's a very efficient use. A center platform for exiting, and the two side platforms for entering. Then two levels of course, for the two lines. There shouldn't have to be renovations after this arrangement is in place.


:lol: Do some research buddy, the TTC already looked into a platform on the north side of the north track at Union Station. Do you know what the north wall happens to be? *THE FOUNDATIONS OF A SKYSCRAPER!*:rofl: Good luck getting a platform there. There is a very good reason for the TTC putting a platform on the south end instead of the north (had the north been available, it might have been favourable over the south with more options available for improved access, but this is simply not realistic). As for the two levels, you'd raise hell during construction. The current tracks would have to be completely removed and relaid after the lower level is made. You cannot simply go under the existing tracks as their foundations are not capable of acting as a span. You, of course, are incapable of considering these important details. The platform would also have a difficult time being kept open during construction, but they can do this in manageable chunks. Your Union Renovations proposal would require, at a bare minimum, running one-track service through Union Station for extended periods of time with reduced platform space to allow room for construction workers and reduced train serviced due to the one-track limitation - a completely unacceptable proposal as Union is already having such capacity issues today that the TTC is already installing a south platform. 

You'd actually have an easier time building directly under the historic Union Station.

Honestly, when you have ideas this absurd, I wonder why I should make the effort to keep this civil.


----------



## Epi

Gil said:


> In defense of hkskyline, the majority of the articles are just trawled off the internet from newspaper sites. There hasn't been much in terms of good press for the TTC lately. The only source of occasional good press for the TTC usually comes from Ed Drass' column in the Tuesday and Thursday Metro paper. Hkskyline is simply the messenger. I appreciate the work to sort through all the various press stories and then post them in their appropriate threads, it saves me from having to search through all of them.
> 
> If you think the news here is bad, you should see some of the stuff the press in New York write about the MTA!


To further this point, if you read the other forums on skyscraperforums, you'd notice that hkskyline reposts a lot of articles about a lot of different cities and things on every subforum on this place. I don't think he has any particular bias.


----------



## Epi

**


----------



## noob(but not really)

KGB said:


> "Um, no. Your post is proof that you don't want serious discussion about anything. "
> 
> I'm not trying to get in the middle here, but com'on noob...his posts are waaaay to indepth and topic specific to make an arguement that he isn't interested in a serious discussion about the topic....he obviously takes it *very* seriously.


I didn't say he's not serious, he just doesn't like my posts, and thus doesn't want a serious discussion with *me*.





TRZ said:


> :|
> 
> I say you don't know because I can prove you don't know. If you want to get *your world smashed by a nuclear weapon's worth of backup*, I'll gladly blow your argument back to the stone-age. What you posted are only small fish. The _real reasons _are in the quoted source below:


LMAO. I know about Lower Queen and that Flying U crap. You are also oblivious to the fact that I covered the most noteworthy of those issues in my post. But I decided not to quote Transit Toronto verbatim. :tongue2: 





> :lol: Do some research buddy, the TTC already looked into a platform on the north side of the north track at Union Station. Do you know what the north wall happens to be? *THE FOUNDATIONS OF A SKYSCRAPER!*:rofl: Good luck getting a platform there. There is a very good reason for the TTC putting a platform on the south end instead of the north (had the north been available, it might have been favourable over the south with more options available for improved access, but this is simply not realistic). As for the two levels, you'd raise hell during construction. The current tracks would have to be completely removed and relaid after the lower level is made. You cannot simply go under the existing tracks as their foundations are not capable of acting as a span. You, of course, are incapable of considering these important details. The platform would also have a difficult time being kept open during construction, but they can do this in manageable chunks. Your Union Renovations proposal would require, at a bare minimum, running one-track service through Union Station for extended periods of time with reduced platform space to allow room for construction workers and reduced train serviced due to the one-track limitation - a completely unacceptable proposal as Union is already having such capacity issues today that the TTC is already installing a south platform.
> 
> You'd actually have an easier time building directly under the historic Union Station.
> 
> Honestly, when you have ideas this absurd, I wonder why I should make the effort to keep this civil.


Perfect. You know what this means? We can still have the three platform configuration if we realign the tracks and expand southward. I know you'll start complaining about cost, but this will allow for a better turning radius on both sides. And don't even get me started on capacity. This is one of the busiest stations on the network, and it already can't handle just one narrow platform. Pretty soon it wouldn't be able to handle a second one either. The current renovations are only a band-aid solution.

The two levels of course, are necessary because this will be the future interchange with DRL. Why splitting up the lines? So that commuters from either Don Mills or Weston can access downtown easier(especially the northern part) instead of getting dropped off at Union and being forced to walk a long ways to their destination. This arrangement also uses University a lot better. Yonge was pretty much extended haphazardly, and because of this, you get the odd phenomenon of empty seats downtown as you make the loop. This will put an end to that.


----------



## hkskyline

Being a follower of TTC news regularly, it's very obvious that the general trend of coverage is negative, and there are plenty of concrete reasons behind it, which leads to the big picture over how government is involved in investing in cities across the country.

I'm highly critical of how the TTC is run. I don't have that much positive to say about them at all. While I constantly hear arguments that the TTC is the most self-sufficient system on the continent and all that, making it seem like a good thing, the fact is it's not. Being self-sufficient is not the same as providing good service. We need to be clear on what the TTC's objective and mandate should be.


----------



## AmiDelf

hkskyline said:


> Some history ...
> 
> Source : http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5701.shtml


These are from Toronto ? ;p





































These are from Oslo, Norway.


Oslo wagons were built from 1960s to 1980s. Is Toronto inspired by Oslo design or the other way? In Oslo wagons you can also look at the track ahead of you, while the cabin is on the right side.

Also, the pre-metro wagons was all red also, before they choose this design.


----------



## TRZ

noob(but not really) said:


> I didn't say he's not serious, he just doesn't like my posts, and thus doesn't want a serious discussion with *me*.


If I liked your posts (implying rather "If I didn't disagree with noob"), then there'd be no debate. Disagreeing with you has nothing to do with not being serious. It'd be far easier to have a serious discussion with you if the contents of your posts weren't so absurd. 







noob(but not really) said:


> LMAO. I know about Lower Queen and that Flying U crap.


:lol: The man who wants the Queen Subway so bad refers to the Flying U as "crap", when it would have run along Queen :nuts:. OK, so you don't support a Queen Subway? The Flying U wasn't that bad of an idea - as Jaye on here has pointed out before, and I think he has a point on this, is that if the Flying U had been built, we wouldn't have the over-capacity issues at Yonge/Bloor and south of Bloor on Yonge. This is hard to argue against, and gives added truth to the old saying of hindsight is 20/20, the Flying U may have actually been smarter in the end, if only we had a crystal ball in the late 1950s. I think the Flying U might have faced some potential alignment difficulties, but then again, the city worked in a completely different manner back in those days, where tough decisions were actually made by politicians, unlike these days where all politicians suck out and look for the easy [cheap, low-risk, poor-on-return] way.



noob(but not really) said:


> You are also oblivious to the fact that I covered the most noteworthy of those issues in my post. But I decided not to quote Transit Toronto verbatim. :tongue2:


:nono: Transit Toronto is a respectable source, as are the additional hardcover references I also pointed to. You, on the other hand, are far from a reliable source.

As for your issues being "noteworthy", puh-leeze.:| Don't take my word for it though, take a look for yourself in a proper comparison and you'll see the error of your ways: :lol:



noob(but not really) said:


> Bloor was chosen due to the fact that east of Queen, only Kingston would feed into the line, while there were already several routes terminating at Luttrell Loop(near today's Main Street station), to feed into the streetcar.
> 
> Queen in the east is also cut off by the lake, and Kingston Road provides the only alignment to extend the line.


VS.



TRZ said:


> TTC’s figures showed that ridership on the Bloor streetcar line was increasing rapidly, to almost 9000 passengers per direction per hour, pushing the multiple-unit PCCs to their limits, just as Yonge’s Witt trailer trains had been when the decision had been made to build the first subway beneath them.


It is obvious that the need to maintain current service at an acceptable and attractive level and provide adequate supply to meet the crushing demand is a far higher priority than looking at potential extensions. To suggest otherwise, as you did try to argue that potential extensions was a major reason, is simply crazy talk. The limited options for extensions had squat to do with the decision, the most important reason was the PCCs being unable to meet the current demand in the very-near future at the time - Bloor had already turned into a Yonge was the reality of the day. Queen hadn't turned into Yonge, still hasn't, and perhaps never will (King on the other hand, is already just about there).

Thus, you did not state the most noteworthy reason, not by a long shot. 



noob(but not really) said:


> The reason there is no talk of extending B-D right now is because the SRT is in the way, and they apparently decided to replace the current fleet. If it weren't for that, B-D would've already been extended to STC and maybe even Malvern.


We've been over the physical impossibility of this one already. The SRT is not "in the way" as the current Kennedy Subway Station cannot turn onto the SRT's alignment, nor would it be able to turn at the Ellesmere/Midland area.








noob(but not really) said:


> Perfect. You know what this means? We can still have the three platform configuration if we realign the tracks and expand southward. I know you'll start complaining about cost, but this will allow for a better turning radius on both sides.


The change in turning radius would be negligible, you don't understand how slight such a realignment actually is and does not address the issues with the curve between King and Union. "Perfect" is hardly the word I'd use.


noob(but not really) said:


> And don't even get me started on capacity. This is one of the busiest stations on the network, and it already can't handle just one narrow platform. Pretty soon it wouldn't be able to handle a second one either. The current renovations are only a band-aid solution.
> 
> The two levels of course, are necessary because this will be the future interchange with DRL. Why splitting up the lines? So that commuters from either Don Mills or Weston can access downtown easier(especially the northern part) instead of getting dropped off at Union and being forced to walk a long ways to their destination. This arrangement also uses University a lot better.


Well, it might be a band-aid 20-years from now, I can agree with that. However, if you wanted to make a Wye interchange and remove the problems of the curve, and imporve connectivity with Union Station in general, why not go all out, especially if you are not concerned about cost? Frankly, your proposal would cause so much disruption that building a new alignment could actually be cheaper and easier since the complications of keeping service running during construction would be virtually a non-issue - and that's enormous savings in time, project management details, construction phases, co-ordination, among other things. Service would be disrupted for a weekend or two, and that's about it (to install new junctions).

To Illustrate:










The Yellow Line is obviously the current alignment. The Purple branches are your DRL. The Green outlines are rough outlines of the new Stations - East Teamway (Union Station East Exit) and West Teamway (Union Station West Exit). The brackets are displaying text in the same style as "Yorkville" appears under Bay (so if I were describing Bay here I would type it as "Bay (Yorkville)"). The West Teamway Station is two levels segregated by direction. The East Teamway Station is most likely two islands, not sure if it should be segregated by Line or Direction though (I'd prefer by Direction). The U around the ACC is where the Wye would be. The light blue line is LRT - the one on Bay Street by East Teamway is existing. The West Teamway one is a possible alignment the WWLRT would be using (maybe, this is of course not yet known). The dark yellow station along the Yellow Line is of course the existing Union Station. This space, I propose, be converted into a small yard for the downtown. Since downtown has seen a residential explosion, there is now a good argument to have a yard in the core, and this is a very recent development. The original Yonge Line terminated at Eglinton, so it is no surprise that the yard was put towards the northmost end of the line, since peak travel times would make that the best place to put it - same for Wilson, Greenwood, and Keele area yards. With downtown now not only a place to work but to live as well, a yard in the core makes sense.

The two new stations will also provide way better GO Train connections as platform access can be obtained directly from the fare gates. East Teamway would also result in an exceptionally convenient Subway Connection for the GO Bus terminal.

It also gets rid of the King Curve.

It also provides a solution to the possible capacity conflicts with the existing Union Station LRT station when WWLRT opens. The two lines would still connect at Queen's Quay and Bay, so the two lines serving two different subway stations would not result in a loss of connection between the two lines themselves.

Given that this also provides even more capacity than you had originally proposed noob, I think you'd agree with something like this.

This is a prime solution for Union Station, but extremely expensive (but whether or not it is as expensive as noob's proposal is debatable).




noob(but not really) said:


> Yonge was pretty much extended haphazardly, and because of this, you get the odd phenomenon of empty seats downtown as you make the loop. This will put an end to that.


??? What are you talking about?


----------



## TRZ

hkskyline said:


> I'm highly critical of how the TTC is run. I don't have that much positive to say about them at all. While I constantly hear arguments that the TTC is the most self-sufficient system on the continent and all that, making it seem like a good thing, the fact is it's not. Being self-sufficient is not the same as providing good service. We need to be clear on what the TTC's objective and mandate should be.


I agree with this somewhat - not as strongly as hkskyline, but the TTC does have problems despite its good standing.


----------



## canadave87

AmiDelf said:


> Oslo wagons were built from 1960s to 1980s. Is Toronto inspired by Oslo design or the other way? In Oslo wagons you can also look at the track ahead of you, while the cabin is on the right side.
> 
> Also, the pre-metro wagons was all red also, before they choose this design.


Those are the Gloucester cars, which the TTC ran from the subway's first opening in 1953 up until the late-1980s. Can't find any info on if Norway used the same trains at all, though.


----------



## AmiDelf

No, they didnt. As the wagons in Oslo was produced in Norway. But the design is pretty alike. Maybe some travelled to Toronto or to Oslo in 1960s ;=) Who knows, hehe


----------



## Gil

TRZ said:


> To Illustrate:


The WWLRT, I thought was supposed to continue through the ACC to Bay St. and then turn up into Union Station. I've wondered if they could possibly add a station at Lake Shore to serve both the ACC and the new condos in the area. There's been some discussion as to where the line would go underground.

A relocated Union Station with a rough-in for a DRL station would also require a new, hopefully larger streetcar station to serve the various routes which will eventually run into Union once all the waterfront development has happened.

I've considered a DRL as well with a tie-in with Union. One option, which would be less than ideal but still offer transfers is to run it parallel to the Yonge-University line and have the transfer through the mezzanine level. (Similar to the Berri-UQAM station in Montréal or a bit like the Spadina stations.) It'd mean that they wouldn't have to support the Y-U Union while they dig the DRL Union. Tie it all in with whatever Union train and streetcar station redevelopment plans that eventually make it to reality. This way the DRL can run under the rail corridor/Esplanade.


----------



## UD2

AmiDelf said:


> No, they didnt. As the wagons in Oslo was produced in Norway. But the design is pretty alike. Maybe some travelled to Toronto or to Oslo in 1960s ;=) Who knows, hehe


non whatsoever

just because they look the same doesn't mean they're the same cars. 

Plus, the Toronto train has a different gauge.


----------



## allurban

TRZ said:


> To Illustrate:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a prime solution for Union Station, but extremely expensive (but whether or not it is as expensive as noob's proposal is debatable).


Interesting ideas, TRZ...

would there be room for a TTC yard in the area tho, with the current GO yard to the west and the future GO yard to the east?

I can imagine that this would be expensive and yet, I just think that it would be worth it if it just makes the turn quieter.

besides, Lower Toronto (ie. south of Front Street) is getting busier and busier. This would be an interesting solution.

Cheers, m


----------



## TRZ

Gil said:


> The WWLRT, I thought was supposed to continue through the ACC to Bay St. and then turn up into Union Station. I've wondered if they could possibly add a station at Lake Shore to serve both the ACC and the new condos in the area. There's been some discussion as to where the line would go underground.


Yes, you are correct, the discussions are still going and no final decision is yet made (AFAIK). An EA is currently in progress for Bremner which includes investigations for a new portal, and before it is finished, no final decisions will be made as I understand it. While it is true that running it up Bay into the current loop is what they want, there is an awareness at the TTC already that this will put too much strain on the current loop at Union and something needs to be done to expand capacity, not easy with an underground station like this one. 

One of the other LRT projects in the works though, is the Queen's Quay East-Cherry St route, which I am running with as an extension of the WWLRT (eventually dropping the "West" from its name and just making it the Waterfront LRT), but this is a presumption on my part in the above schema. For that through service, I am running it down York to allow it to serve (close to) Harbourfront in addition to the ACC and the new subway station in the schema.



Gil said:


> A relocated Union Station with a rough-in for a DRL station would also require a new, hopefully larger streetcar station to serve the various routes which will eventually run into Union once all the waterfront development has happened.


I believe we are thinking alike here. I am proposing with the above the 509 (plus occasional 510) continue to use their current loop, while the WWLRT and Cherry routes use the new loop by West Teamway. This way the old loop can continue to function in its current state, although a new platform will probably be recommended to extend to the new station as it is on the opposite side of the loop from the current station. The existing platform need not be discontinued though (necessarily, it needs to be conceded that it would not be conveniently located relative to the new station at East Teamway).



Gil said:


> I've considered a DRL as well with a tie-in with Union. One option, which would be less than ideal but still offer transfers is to run it parallel to the Yonge-University line and have the transfer through the mezzanine level. (Similar to the Berri-UQAM station in Montréal or a bit like the Spadina stations.) It'd mean that they wouldn't have to support the Y-U Union while they dig the DRL Union. Tie it all in with whatever Union train and streetcar station redevelopment plans that eventually make it to reality. This way the DRL can run under the rail corridor/Esplanade.


You mean run parallel on the south side of the existing subway station? That might be too tight a fit. I strongly suspect you'd encounter interference with the foundations of Historical Union Station (specifically, the foundations of the Great Hall). The new platform being added to the existing station is going to at least come up to the moat's north edge, if not protrude under the moat already, and there is no way to fit both two tracks and a new platform within the width of the moat (the moat's foundations are workable, as the main concern here are the retaining walls). Dealing with a Heritage Structure, there's gonna be a lot of opposition to something that could potentially threaten its foundation supports (lord forbid there were ever an accident in that scenario).


----------



## TRZ

allurban said:


> Interesting ideas, TRZ...
> 
> would there be room for a TTC yard in the area tho, with the current GO yard to the west and the future GO yard to the east?


Thanks  The yard would be small, but the space for such I believe is there. The GO yards would not conflict since the existing Union Station is where the new yard would go. This allows the existing to track to remain in use for non-revenue purposes after the new south-side swing is in service. Using the two existing tracks, you should be able to squeeze in 4 trains. Take out the island platform to squeeze in at least 1 more train. Take out the new platform being built and run a new track there and store another 2 trains. If there is room, which is unclear, add one more track, which would bring it right up to the foundations of Heritage Union Station (but not modify or otherwise disturb the foundations), which would allow 1 more train. So you should be able to store 8 trains in this little yard. Keele's yard is also about this size, though certainly not as cramped as this one would be. This yard would be for marshalling only, no vehicle maintenance could occur here. I believe Keele is the same story, as is GO Bathurst Yard (as Willowbrook is where vehicle maintenance occurs)



allurban said:


> I can imagine that this would be expensive and yet, I just think that it would be worth it if it just makes the turn quieter.
> 
> besides, Lower Toronto (ie. south of Front Street) is getting busier and busier. This would be an interesting solution.
> 
> Cheers, m


----------



## hkskyline

What's the cost going to be like to build such an alignment?


----------



## Gil

TRZ said:


> You mean run parallel on the south side of the existing subway station? That might be too tight a fit. I strongly suspect you'd encounter interference with the foundations of Historical Union Station (specifically, the foundations of the Great Hall). The new platform being added to the existing station is going to at least come up to the moat's north edge, if not protrude under the moat already, and there is no way to fit both two tracks and a new platform within the width of the moat (the moat's foundations are workable, as the main concern here are the retaining walls). Dealing with a Heritage Structure, there's gonna be a lot of opposition to something that could potentially threaten its foundation supports (lord forbid there were ever an accident in that scenario).


Wasn't one of GO's proposals for Union Station if they had their way to excavate their concourse to give it some more headroom? How would lowering the concourse to the TTC's level affect the foundations? Assuming they got the approval, how low can they go without drastically affecting the foundations of the Great Hall and the rest of the building?

Given the amount of stuff the DRL would have to go around (sewage, hydro, the LRT lines), would it be possible to build the station deep enough say at or below the old lake bed that was filled in? Given the complexities of trying to thread another line downtown there aren't much options other than to dig deep or go above ground.


----------



## noob(but not really)

TRZ, you selectively quoted me to back up your allegations. Here's where I covered that most noteworthy issue:



noob(but not really) said:


> Bloor was chosen due to the fact that east of Queen, only Kingston would feed into the line, while there were already several routes terminating at Luttrell Loop(near today's Main Street station), to feed into the streetcar. The suburbs were growing out of Danforth Road in the east, and *traffic on Bloor-Danforth(both transit and cars) was increasing more rapidly*. Queen in the east is also cut off by the lake, and Kingston Road provides the only alignment to extend the line. It was felt(and with good reason) that Kingston is too far south to adequately serve Scarborough with HRT, so for these reasons, Danforth was chosen.


Of course, I didn't provide statistics, but I did cover it to some degree. BTW, I've read that article on TT several times.




TRZ said:


> We've been over the physical impossibility of this one already. The SRT is not "in the way" as the current Kennedy Subway Station cannot turn onto the SRT's alignment, nor would it be able to turn at the Ellesmere/Midland area.


You proposed a way that this can be done though.





> The change in turning radius would be negligible, you don't understand how slight such a realignment actually is and does not address the issues with the curve between King and Union. "Perfect" is hardly the word I'd use.


It would still affect it to a noticeable degree.


As for that Union proposal you posted, I am speechless. That would definitely be an improvement. However, my preferred alignment for DRL is incorrect. I'd have it come in from the west along the rail corridor(sloping downwards from the viaduct west of Jarvis to dip underground), then continue along Front Street.





> ??? What are you talking about?


You know when you get past King, everyone has gotten off, then the subway is empty as you go around the loop, then takes a while to fill up again? This is an inefficiency in the system. If the lines are split at Union(either the current one, or your proposal), then both University and Yonge will be used to their full potential.


----------



## TRZ

Gil said:


> Wasn't one of GO's proposals for Union Station if they had their way to excavate their concourse to give it some more headroom? How would lowering the concourse to the TTC's level affect the foundations? Assuming they got the approval, how low can they go without drastically affecting the foundations of the Great Hall and the rest of the building?


Modifying floor levels within the foundations (i.e. within the building footprint) can be done without modifying the foundation walls or footings themselves, this is quite safe to the structure so long as you are not going to or below the footings. Also, small openings (such as those used for pedestrian traffic) can be made in the foundation walls to allow travel perpendicular to the axis that the foundation wall runs along and still be structurally sound with some reinforcement at jambs and lintels. 
Union Station's foundations are actually quite deep, as there's a basement level that is not widely known, and apparently there's a generating station within said basement.
While small openings can be made in a foundation wall, a subway along the same axis as the foundation wall is pretty much impossible. 
Going under the footings is also not recommended. Not only would it be a very deep station to do so, but it is complicated and risky redesigning the load-transfer system of Union Station's structure, unless you go to unreasonable depths to avoid that being necessary. I'd argue it is not worth it. 
As for going in on one end of the building footprint and out the other, also no good since you'd encounter column footings to navigate around as well.

EDIT: Or, if not columns, stairwell foundations



Gil said:


> Given the amount of stuff the DRL would have to go around (sewage, hydro, the LRT lines), would it be possible to build the station deep enough say at or below the old lake bed that was filled in? Given the complexities of trying to thread another line downtown there aren't much options other than to dig deep or go above ground.


Sewers and hydro and gas lines can be relocated. This is not uncommon for subways. As for the LRT, the current subway's current depth is already almost low enough to go under anyway, another meter deeper and it'll probably be able to clear it. Going below the old lake bed should not be a requirement. The best option, I'd argue, is to go under existing streets and parking lots (while they're still there), where foundations of buildings are not going to be a problem - anything underneath those can be worked with, somehow.


----------



## TRZ

noob(but not really) said:


> TRZ, you selectively quoted me to back up your allegations. Here's where I covered that most noteworthy issue:


You did not cover the most noteworthy issue. You sited *traffic, not ridership,* and that is the big difference. Traffic added insult to injury, true, but the main reason was the fact that the multi-unit PCCs would simply be unable to cope with the demand, far more serious than just "an increase in traffic", and you did not identify this issue. You did not identify the fact that Bloor had more or less turned into a Yonge, and this is the most noteworthy issue, which you completely missed.




noob(but not really) said:


> Of course, I didn't provide statistics,


You should try it some time.






noob(but not really) said:


> TRZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> We've been over the physical impossibility of this one already. The SRT is not "in the way" as the current Kennedy Subway Station cannot turn onto the SRT's alignment, nor would it be able to turn at the Ellesmere/Midland area.
> 
> 
> 
> You proposed a way that this can be done though.
Click to expand...

No, I did not propose a way that the CURRENT Kennedy Station can turn into the SRT's alignment, there is no way, to do it would require a new Kennedy Station to be built, but that is not practical at all unless an Eglinton Line is available to take over the existing B-D station. Nothing was proposed for the Ellesmere curve either - I challenged you to solve it.

A New Kennedy:












noob(but not really) said:


> It would still affect it to a noticeable degree.


No, it wouldn't solve it all, the green line in this large image would be your only feasable option, and it does absolutely nothing to address the curve. Not mentioned in the last reply to you, but mentioned in a reply to Gil and illustrated rather clearly in the above linked image, your triple track idea also does not have enough space as the new south track is more or less already at the foundations of Union Station's Great Hall which you simply cannot possibly carve a platform into (Union Station would fail structurally).


noob(but not really) said:


> As for that Union proposal you posted, I am speechless. That would definitely be an improvement. However, my preferred alignment for DRL is incorrect. I'd have it come in from the west along the rail corridor(sloping downwards from the viaduct west of Jarvis to dip underground), then continue along Front Street.


Well, wasn't too concerned about what alignment you want, East Teamway station's alignment is so close to the same apprach it is compatible. I can tell you right now though that you cannot turn from the West Teamway station onto Front, I'd suggest using the rail corridor until Spadina, at which point you can easily slide onto Front. The main concern is Yonge-Uni, and that's what I was focused on in the idea. In anycase, glad you like it, I'm surprised you actually agree :lol::cheers:







noob(but not really) said:


> You know when you get past King, everyone has gotten off, then the subway is empty as you go around the loop, then takes a while to fill up again? This is an inefficiency in the system. If the lines are split at Union(either the current one, or your proposal), then both University and Yonge will be used to their full potential.


What you are talking about is entirely dependent on the time of day.


----------



## TRZ

hkskyline said:


> What's the cost going to be like to build such an alignment?


Excluding the DRL components (although space could reserved for it in the design), and including the conversion of the current Union into a small yard, I'm guessing around 350 million.


----------



## hkskyline

*City looking for private partner for Union Station
Shopping mall proposed for under train tracks *
15 November 2007
National Post

Standing on the cracked marble in the soaring great hall of Union Station yesterday, Mayor David Miller announced a grand plan to transform the station by excavating a shopping mall underneath the train tracks, to be operated by a private real estate company the city has not yet found. 

The City of Toronto, which has owned Union Station since 2000, also wants to turn over all the station's office and retail space to a private operator, and use the proceeds to fix up the 80-year-old landmark. 

"This is the most important transportation hub in Canada," the Mayor said. "Unfortunately, Union Station economically is not sustainable. Now we have a made-in-Toronto approach to revitalizing Union Station." 

Close to 200,000 commuters use the station every day, most of them GO train passengers. 

The city wants to put the underground mall south of the station, connecting it to the condominium community now growing around the Air Canada Centre. 

J.C. Williams, a retail consultant hired by the city, calculates that the retail will generate enough rent to keep the train station in good repair, said George Wheeler, project director of the Union Station Revitalization. 

However, he also confirmed that a sewer the Toronto Transit Commission is rerouting under Front Street -- which has left much of the station's plaza torn up all year -- will have to moved again to make the new scheme work. 

Toronto has $85-million in its capital budget to fix Union Station over the next five years. The city says truly restoring the station will cost $176-million over 20 years. 

That total does not include the cost of the massive excavation project. Yesterday, no one at the city would put a price on building the underground mall or say how long that job would take. 

The city also doesn't know who would run the mall; city staff have talked with a few big pension funds. 

"We want to deal with the top tier, the companies with billions of dollars in assets," said Jodie Parmar, the city's director of business and strategic innovation. 

The plan involves lowering the floor of the station's east and west concourses, putting them at the same level as the subway station under Front Street. To the south of the concourse, the new mall would spread under the stairs that now lead up to the trains. 

Union Station is also becoming a node of the city's underground PATH network, linking the business district to condos and offices south of Front Street. 

The station has huge untapped potential. For example, on the station's west wing are 135,000 square feet of office space on four floors, now vacant. Mr. Parmar said they would make a perfect head office for GO Transit, the station's main user; the words "Railway Offices" are cut into the limestone above the entrance. But he said GO so far has not expressed interest. 

Already, the city has begun the repair job. In the past week, workers put back the hands on the west face of the clock that stands in the station's centre. The Post had published a picture of the broken clock two weeks ago. 

"Apparently, city staff read the National Post," Mr. Miller said. 

Yesterday, train buffs, Via Rail employees and commuters crowded around as the Mayor made his announcement, and stuck around to listen and comment and study a series of boards set up with drawings of the plans. The city invites the public to comment by e-mailing [email protected]. Tony Turritin of Transport 2000 said he loves the new plan. "It keeps the elegance of the heritage building and at the same time increases the functionality for GO Transit," he said. 

But Catherine Naismith, a heritage building advocate, worried about the logistics of the job. Anybody who has ever lowered their basement knows how complicated excavation can be under existing structures. 

"It's very expensive space to create because there is a huge amount of underpinning to do," she said. "I mean, you've got trains overhead." 

And she asked, "Why are they sending everybody underground? You should be able to flow through these grand public spaces." 

Frank Consiglio, who works at customer service for Via Rail, added that, "retail has taken a priority over transportation."


----------



## noob(but not really)

TRZ said:


> You did not cover the most noteworthy issue. You sited *traffic, not ridership,* and that is the big difference. Traffic added insult to injury, true, but the main reason was the fact that the multi-unit PCCs would simply be unable to cope with the demand, far more serious than just "an increase in traffic", and you did not identify this issue. You did not identify the fact that Bloor had more or less turned into a Yonge, and this is the most noteworthy issue, which you completely missed.


I did cover ridership under traffic - they needed to increase headways to 45 secs, so that would be _streetcar_ traffic.





> No, I did not propose a way that the CURRENT Kennedy Station can turn into the SRT's alignment, there is no way, to do it would require a new Kennedy Station to be built, but that is not practical at all unless an Eglinton Line is available to take over the existing B-D station. Nothing was proposed for the Ellesmere curve either - I challenged you to solve it.
> 
> A New Kennedy:


Of course Eglinton would interchange here, so the current station would still be used either way. As for Ellesmere, I said a new curve would be built. It would curve under the Ellesmere/Midland intersection, with a new station there.





> No, it wouldn't solve it all, the green line in this large image would be your only feasable option, and it does absolutely nothing to address the curve. Not mentioned in the last reply to you, but mentioned in a reply to Gil and illustrated rather clearly in the above linked image, your triple track idea also does not have enough space as the new south track is more or less already at the foundations of Union Station's Great Hall which you simply cannot possibly carve a platform into (Union Station would fail structurally).


Ok.





> Well, wasn't too concerned about what alignment you want, East Teamway station's alignment is so close to the same apprach it is compatible. I can tell you right now though that you cannot turn from the West Teamway station onto Front, I'd suggest using the rail corridor until Spadina, at which point you can easily slide onto Front. The main concern is Yonge-Uni, and that's what I was focused on in the idea. In anycase, glad you like it, I'm surprised you actually agree :lol::cheers:


Yeah it's really a great idea. I think it's your best so far. That area is growing like crazy, and Union is just going to keep handling more and more passengers. Something like this would be a good permanent fix.





> What you are talking about is entirely dependent on the time of day.


Ok, but how silly is it to have that loop. Hardly anyone uses it, and the phenomenon I described does happen quite a bit.


----------



## allurban

TRZ said:


> Excluding the DRL components (although space could reserved for it in the design), and including the conversion of the current Union into a small yard, I'm guessing around 350 million.


Would the DRL be located above/below the Yonge line in the same structural arrangement that gave us St. George and Bay?

If so I hope they do something to reduce noise and vibration....

actually, I wish they could do that for St. George (and Bay) as well.

I suppose that if the TTC really wanted to do it, they could...but it would mean a serious disruption of St. George for many weeks or months at a time....

Cheers, m


----------



## hkskyline

*City explores cellphone use in subways
Wiring System
In trains, stations or both? TTC chairman asks *
14 November 2007
National Post

The TTC is exploring wiring its subways for cellphone use. 

The idea emerged yesterday as the commission updated reporters on a five-year plan to install customer-service technology that is already standard in major public transit systems around the world. 

Councillor Adam Giambrone, chairman of the TTC, said commission staff is working on a report for early next year looking at whether and how the public transit authority could take the cellphone network underground. 

The TTC would have to consult the public before going ahead, he said, because while the idea might thrill cellphone addicts, it risks disturbing subway riders seeking a quiet trip. 

"The question will be, of course, when we say rolling [cellphone use] out in the subways, what do we mean?" Mr. Giambrone said. "That's why we have to look at it. Do we mean on the trains or in the stations? … The question is do you want to sit next to somebody talking on their cellphone?" 

New York City recently decided to wire its 277 underground subway stations -- but not its trains or tunnels -- for cellphone use. 

It contracted a third-party company to build and pay for the system. The company, Transit Wireless, will charge cellphone carriers a fee to use its signal. 

Gary Webster, the TTC's chief general manager, said Toronto's transit authority would also look to a private company, possibly a cellphone carrier, to foot the bill for installing underground cellphone service here. 

The cellphone idea, however, is a long way off when compared to some of the high-tech projects the commission touted yesterday. 

Beginning on Monday, the TTC will post service interruption alerts on the electronic screens on its subway platforms and on its Web site. 

Once that $1.1-million project is evaluated, the transit authority will explore sending such alerts to cellphones and BlackBerrys. 

The TTC plans to spend $5.5-milion installing electronic signs and back-up equipment to tell bus and subway passengers when the next vehicle will arrive. 

The commission will begin testing the idea on subway platforms -- using existing electronic screens --next summer. A bus and streetcar pilot project is expected to launch in November, 2008, the commission said. 

The TTC will unveil a $375,000 makeover to its 10-year-old Web site in the spring, but transit riders will still have to wait until July, 2009, to plot their transit trips over the Internet and buy all their transit passes online. 

Those two projects will cost a combined $3.5-million. 

Mr. Giambrone conceded that the TTC is behind the times when it comes to offering basic services like an Internet trip planner, which would allow customers to plug locations into the TTC's Web site and learn the best combination of bus, streetcar and subway routes to get to their destinations. 

"Clearly this is something we should have done in the past," Mr. Giambrone said of the trip planner. "There's really no excuse for that. The commission directed this last year and now, I think if you talk to other transit authorities that have rolled out trip planners, it is a two-year process."


----------



## TRZ

noob(but not really) said:


> I did cover ridership under traffic - they needed to increase headways to 45 secs, so that would be _streetcar_ traffic.


You did not specifically refer to ridership in the orginal post, and that is exactly my point. You are focusing _entirely _on *vehicular traffic*, not ridership. If 45 second headways can satisfy the demand, then there's not as much of a problem, but even at that, the demand was projected to overpower that arrangement in the near-future if the growth pattern observed for the last while were to continue, which indicators would support would happen.







noob(but not really) said:


> Of course Eglinton would interchange here, so the current station would still be used either way.


No, you said that the only reason B-D has not been extended is because the SRT is in the way, you did not cite the missing existence of an Eglinton Subway line to take over the existing station.


noob(but not really) said:


> As for Ellesmere, I said a new curve would be built. It would curve under the Ellesmere/Midland intersection, with a new station there.


Except you can't curve under the intersection like that. Too much expropriation. There is a way to do it without expropriating, however you think expropriation is simple and popular.hno:



noob(but not really) said:


> Ok, but how silly is it to have that loop. Hardly anyone uses it, and the phenomenon I described does happen quite a bit.


Well, it is designed to serve a specific purpose, and it still is a much needed purpose today - alleviating Yonge south of Bloor. That's its principal function. The phenomenon you cite is not really a "problem". It is not designed to act as a loop and doesn't need to have people ride continuously through the loop. This is not a loop line - what I've propsed elsewhere is a loop line .


----------



## TRZ

allurban said:


> Would the DRL be located above/below the Yonge line in the same structural arrangement that gave us St. George and Bay?


No. I've been thinking about how to do the East Teamway layout. It is an interesting location and position with a lot of popular potential in various directions from the platform. As such, a very unconventional staggered/split-level arrangement of platforms and tracks is what I would propose for the East Teamways station. It is hard to describe and I may provide a sketch. This would provide good noise control and vibration isolation design opportunities.

However, after reading up on some of the Union Redevelopment proposals, I am having second thoughts about the naming, and just leaving it as Union for East Teamways Station (as it shares the existing LRT loop anyway, combined with the GO Bus terminal, it is much more appropriate this way), and making the West Teamways Station to "York (Bremner)" instead. This is more conventional and what the system is used to. Uni-Spadina would become the York Line :lol: (York(Bremner) to York Uni)



allurban said:


> If so I hope they do something to reduce noise and vibration....
> 
> actually, I wish they could do that for St. George (and Bay) as well.
> 
> I suppose that if the TTC really wanted to do it, they could...but it would mean a serious disruption of St. George for many weeks or months at a time....
> 
> Cheers, m


Actually, the amount of isolators in question that would be required might not be practical since they could theorhetically require a change in track levels. I cannot think of a way they could do it without shutting the service down for a while.


----------



## noob(but not really)

TRZ said:


> You did not specifically refer to ridership in the orginal post, and that is exactly my point. You are focusing _entirely _on *vehicular traffic*, not ridership. If 45 second headways can satisfy the demand, then there's not as much of a problem, but even at that, the demand was projected to overpower that arrangement in the near-future if the growth pattern observed for the last while were to continue, which indicators would support would happen.


I just wanted to point out that both vehicular AND streetcar traffic was increasing, and ridership would be included in the latter. We both know this, so there's no point in arguing.





> No, you said that the only reason B-D has not been extended is because the SRT is in the way, you did not cite the missing existence of an Eglinton Subway line to take over the existing station.


If there was no SRT, they would extend it in no time.





> Except you can't curve under the intersection like that. Too much expropriation. There is a way to do it without expropriating, however you think expropriation is simple and popular.hno:


Opposition to this type of expropriation is nothing short of NIMBYism. But do tell us, what is this "way to do it w/o expropriation"?





> Well, it is designed to serve a specific purpose, and it still is a much needed purpose today - alleviating Yonge south of Bloor. That's its principal function. The phenomenon you cite is not really a "problem". It is not designed to act as a loop and doesn't need to have people ride continuously through the loop. This is not a loop line - what I've propsed elsewhere is a loop line .


Wait, it's needed because people riding Yonge south need to take University to relieve Yonge? :nuts:

I know what you mean, but my plan won't change its function as a relief line. Rather, it would solidify it, because it would also relieve Yonge to the east. Yonge would also be full coming into Union, instead of empty. So it's a better use of the system.


----------



## TRZ

noob(but not really) said:


> I just wanted to point out that both vehicular AND streetcar traffic was increasing, and ridership would be included in the latter. We both know this, so there's no point in arguing.


No, you're making assumptions and trying to weasel out of your delivering misinformation. You should be a politician. 

Vehiclar volume _does _give a measure of capacity supplied, but it *does not *give a measure of capacity demanded, and that is why yours was an erroneous and ill-informed statement. Capacity demanded can _only _be conveyed by *ridership figures*, _not vehicluar headways_. If you fail to understand this, that's your handicap.






noob(but not really) said:


> If there was no SRT, they would extend it in no time.


No, if there was no SRT, it'd be a streetcar line like originally planned - that's why the loop is useless for the SRT, it was designed for a streetcar's turning radius.






noob(but not really) said:


> Opposition to this type of expropriation is nothing short of NIMBYism. But do tell us, what is this "way to do it w/o expropriation"?


It's shocking that you can take expropriation so lightly. If you enjoy kicking people out of their homes and depriving them of their property that much, why don't you become a terrorist?:nuts:

Here's an expropriation-free alternative:

Lawrence East Re-align:









Ellesmere-McCowan (North is Left, East is Up):









The single-line portion indicates an stretch where the two directions are one on top of the other rather than side-by-side. This is needed to maneuver some foundations of existing structures.





noob(but not really) said:


> Wait, it's needed because people riding Yonge south need to take University to relieve Yonge? :nuts:


It's needed for diverting Bloor traffic from Yonge. Originally Bloor users wouldn't need Yonge at all to get downtown, that was the point of the design, as both directions on B-D would flow into University without transferring. It was a great design, but the TTC fucked it up.



noob(but not really) said:


> I know what you mean, but my plan won't change its function as a relief line. Rather, it would solidify it, because it would also relieve Yonge to the east. Yonge would also be full coming into Union, instead of empty. So it's a better use of the system.


Yonge is not empty coming into Union, although many do get off at King. I see what your argument is though, and partially agree with it, the part where I disagree is that it doesn't do anything that the system is not already designed to do anyway - the TTC just doesn't use the Wye anymore, because they can't manage it.


----------



## noob(but not really)

TRZ said:


> No, you're making assumptions and trying to weasel out of your delivering misinformation. You should be a politician.
> 
> Vehiclar volume _does _give a measure of capacity supplied, but it *does not *give a measure of capacity demanded, and that is why yours was an erroneous and ill-informed statement. Capacity demanded can _only _be conveyed by *ridership figures*, _not vehicluar headways_. If you fail to understand this, that's your handicap.


We're arguing over breadcrumbs. I read that article on TT several times, so don't act like I don't know what I'm talking about.





> No, if there was no SRT, it'd be a streetcar line like originally planned - that's why the loop is useless for the SRT, *it was designed for a streetcar's turning radius*.


I'm not the noob you think I am.





> It's shocking that you can take expropriation so lightly. If you enjoy kicking people out of their homes and depriving them of their property that much, why don't you become a terrorist?:nuts:
> 
> Here's an expropriation-free alternative:
> 
> 
> 
> The single-line portion indicates an stretch where the two directions are one on top of the other rather than side-by-side. This is needed to maneuver some foundations of existing structures.


That's nice and all, but if a station is going there, the houses would be going anyway. Think about it.





> It's needed for diverting Bloor traffic from Yonge. Originally Bloor users wouldn't need Yonge at all to get downtown, that was the point of the design, as both directions on B-D would flow into University without transferring. It was a great design, but the TTC fucked it up.


Yes, University relieving Yonge from the west, doubling its capacity. BUT that's not what I was referring to. Go back and look at the post.





> Yonge is not empty coming into Union, although many do get off at King. *I see what your argument is* though, and partially agree with it, the part where I disagree is that it doesn't do anything that the system is not already designed to do anyway - the TTC just doesn't use the Wye anymore, because they can't manage it.


Ok, I'm glad you understand. Think about the setup... you have Yonge in the middle, with relief on either side(University-Spadina, Don Mills), then a western spur of Yonge going to Weston, sort of acting as additional relief for U-S. With this setup, both lines are used from each direction coming into downtown.


----------



## TRZ

noob(but not really) said:


> We're arguing over breadcrumbs. I read that article on TT several times, so don't act like I don't know what I'm talking about.


Doesn't matter how many times you read it if you don't understand the information being conveyed. If you know what it is conveying, then accurately do so yourself. You did not accurately convey the right information, even if unintentional.







noob(but not really) said:


> I'm not the noob you think I am.


You're the same noob that said if there was no SRT that a B-D extension to STC would have materialized, aren't you?







noob(but not really) said:


> That's nice and all, but if a station is going there, the houses would be going anyway. Think about it.


If there's a bus terminal, yeah, absolutely, but what station are you referring to? The alignment stays clear of subdivisions of detatched houses in general.







noob(but not really) said:


> Yes, University relieving Yonge from the west, doubling its capacity. BUT that's not what I was referring to. Go back and look at the post.


You were referring to the east, I know, and University was designed to take people from the east as well - it's called Lower Bay. 






noob(but not really) said:


> Ok, I'm glad you understand. Think about the setup... you have Yonge in the middle, with relief on either side(University-Spadina, Don Mills), then a western spur of Yonge going to Weston, sort of acting as additional relief for U-S. With this setup, both lines are used from each direction coming into downtown.


U-S doesn't need a relief line, it already is a relief line in and of itself. That doesn't mean that more subway lines are bad, per se, but priorities must be set accordingly considering funding.


----------



## noob(but not really)

TRZ said:


> Doesn't matter how many times you read it if you don't understand the information being conveyed. If you know what it is conveying, then accurately do so yourself. You did not accurately convey the right information, even if unintentional.


I understand it perfectly, but I tried summarizing it in one sentence. Guess I wasn't precise enough for YOU, but Electrify seems fine with it. 





> You're the same noob that said if there was no SRT that a B-D extension to STC would have materialized, aren't you?


Pretty much. A streetcar line would've been easier to replace, as it wouldn't have cost as much. And it's undeniable that more capacity is needed.





> If there's a bus terminal, yeah, absolutely, but what station are you referring to? The alignment stays clear of subdivisions of detatched houses in general.


I mean density.





> You were referring to the east, I know, and University was designed to take people from the east as well - it's called Lower Bay.


Didn't bring Lower Bay into this, I was saying that as you get past King, the subway is empty, then it takes almost the entire length of University, if ever, to fill up. This is worse during off peak times. If U-S became part of a different line(instead of an awkward appendage), then this would cease. 





> U-S doesn't need a relief line, it already is a relief line in and of itself. That doesn't mean that more subway lines are bad, per se, but priorities must be set accordingly considering funding.


Wow, you are so nitpicky! Obviously it won't be a relief line, but it is an alternate route downtown, so I could see that some ppl would take it, and thus it could be a relief line. But it can get by on its own.


----------



## TRZ

noob(but not really) said:


> I understand it perfectly, but I tried summarizing it in one sentence. Guess I wasn't precise enough for YOU, but Electrify seems fine with it.


Electrify wasn't the one who asked the question. The person who asked's opinion is irrelevant anyway, because they don't know, the opinion on the quality of your response of people that are familiar with the facts in detail do matter. If you're not clear and precise, why should you be taken seriously? The fact remains is that you mentioned everything but ridership specifically.







noob(but not really) said:


> Pretty much. A streetcar line would've been easier to replace, as it wouldn't have cost as much. And it's undeniable that more capacity is needed.


Whether it is a streetcar line or an ICTS being replaced, a subway replacing either is going to be the same cost since the same alignment can't be used regardless. The streetcar line would not be having this problem in the first place though, as LRT has a considerably higher capacity than the ICTS, and wouldn't need the subway replacement at all.







noob(but not really) said:


> I mean density.


That's considerably different, but you don't make the land available by expropriation for a transit corridor. Let the developers do their work.







noob(but not really) said:


> Didn't bring Lower Bay into this,


It's relevant.






noob(but not really) said:


> Wow, you are so nitpicky!


More like you aren't picky enough. Like I said before, if you are not clear and precise, why should you be taken seriously?


----------



## noob(but not really)

TRZ said:


> Electrify wasn't the one who asked the question.


No one asked the question, but Electrify wasn't clear enough, so I added to what he said.





> The person who asked's opinion is irrelevant anyway, because they don't know, the opinion on the quality of your response of people that are familiar with the facts in detail do matter. If you're not clear and precise, why should you be taken seriously? The fact remains is that you mentioned everything but ridership specifically.


Ridership increase is implied if streetcar traffic is increasing.





> Whether it is a streetcar line or an ICTS being replaced, a subway replacing either is going to be the same cost since the same alignment can't be used regardless. The streetcar line would not be having this problem in the first place though, as LRT has a considerably higher capacity than the ICTS, and wouldn't need the subway replacement at all.


A streetcar line would not have cost so much time, nor money to build or operate. It would also be a much more attractive service, which would've increased ridership, putting it in the same position as the current ICTS. People would still complain about the Kennedy transfer.

For these reasons, I'm 100% sure that if the SRT was never built, we'd be taking B-D to STC by now.





> That's considerably different, but you don't make the land available by expropriation for a transit corridor. Let the developers do their work.


You'd partner with the developers for them to build on top.





> It's relevant.
> 
> More like you aren't picky enough. Like I said before, if you are not clear and precise, why should you be taken seriously?


Lower Bay hasn't been relevant since 1966. I may not have been precise enough for you a few times, but the same goes for you.

The rest of those two comments... flawless! :cheers:


----------



## TRZ

noob(but not really) said:


> No one asked the question, but Electrify wasn't clear enough, so I added to what he said.


Wrong, isaidso asked the question. Electrify wouldn't need to explain if the request for such information was not made.







noob(but not really) said:


> Ridership increase is implied if streetcar traffic is increasing.


It doesn't illustrate the strain on the system though, and that's the point. You did not point at all to the fact that Bloor was in a situation not unlike Yonge.







noob(but not really) said:


> A streetcar line would not have cost so much time, nor money to build or operate. It would also be a much more attractive service, which would've increased ridership, putting it in the same position as the current ICTS. People would still complain about the Kennedy transfer.


The cost to build would have been cheaper as a product, but it would have been much more expensive to the TTC. When the SRT was built, the province paid for a vast majority of it, saving huge sums of money for the TTC, making it much MUCH cheaper than building it as a streetcar line. However, while the Kennedy transfer would have been the same, that's true, even if the service was more popular (not necessarily, although I'd be inclined to agree better planning principles would probably have been applied as a streetcar line), it would have been far easier and cheaper to adjust the service as a streetcar line than the ICTS is capable of and would still not require a subway.



noob(but not really) said:


> For these reasons, I'm 100% sure that if the SRT was never built, we'd be taking B-D to STC by now.


You could 200% sure and you'd still be wrong.







noob(but not really) said:


> You'd partner with the developers for them to build on top.


Not without large protests. You don't understand that these types of opposition are in fact capable of killing a project - they did kill the Don Mills Busway, and they almost killed St.Clair West. You should worry about these kinds of problems because they can destroy your little schemes. It's an important part of the strategy, and a key point to why I am lightyears ahead of you in route planning.







noob(but not really) said:


> Lower Bay hasn't been relevant since 1966.


Try several months ago, genius, when they were doing structural repair work between Bay and St.George.hno:

Lower Bay is relevant because it exists and is possible to restore to service if the TTC wants.


----------



## noob(but not really)

TRZ said:


> Wrong, isaidso asked the question. Electrify wouldn't need to explain if the request for such information was not made.


Isaidso didn't ask anything. If you actually read his posts, you'd know that. You should try it sometime - actually reading people's posts, instead of just believing certain ignoramus forumers who propose MCC extensions that put words in my mouth I didn't utter.





> It doesn't illustrate the strain on the system though, and that's the point. You did not point at all to the fact that Bloor was in a situation not unlike Yonge.


Face it, you're wrong. I do know what I'm talking about afterall. You're the only one complaining about this(apparently because I dislike your Jane subway )





> The cost to build would have been cheaper as a product, but it would have been much more expensive to the TTC. When the SRT was built, the province paid for a vast majority of it, saving huge sums of money for the TTC, making it much MUCH cheaper than building it as a streetcar line. However, while the Kennedy transfer would have been the same, that's true, even if the service was more popular (not necessarily, although I'd be inclined to agree better planning principles would probably have been applied as a streetcar line), it would have been far easier and cheaper to adjust the service as a streetcar line than the ICTS is capable of and would still not require a subway.
> 
> You could 200% sure and you'd still be wrong.


If the ridership were triple(which I think it would be), then a subway would be needed.





> Not without large protests. You don't understand that these types of opposition are in fact capable of killing a project - they did kill the Don Mills Busway, and they almost killed St.Clair West. You should worry about these kinds of problems because they can destroy your little schemes. It's an important part of the strategy, and a key point to why I am lightyears ahead of you in route planning.


You can't assume that. Knowing how long the public has been shortchanged, they'd be more inclined to welcome it than protest.





> Try several months ago, genius, when they were doing structural repair work between Bay and St.George.hno:
> 
> Lower Bay is relevant because it exists and is possible to restore to service if the TTC wants.


Try revenue service without any structural work. hno:

And I already told you I don't care for interlining.


----------



## TRZ

noob(but not really) said:


> Isaidso didn't ask anything. If you actually read his posts, you'd know that.





isaidso said:


> Bloor should have a subway. I think what you are saying is that Queen should have gotten one first.


Not a question, true, but this statement is what effectively started the topic, and was what I was referring to. This was in response to Electrify stating Bloor shouldn't even have a subway at all. I put no words in your mouth, I only quote your own posts without re-writing them, unlike some people I debate with.





noob(but not really) said:


> Face it, you're wrong. I do know what I'm talking about afterall. You're the only one complaining about this(apparently because I dislike your Jane subway )


The Jane Subway debate is a separate thread (and I suggest we leave it there). I am correcting your misconveyance on the facts of history - because you did make a mistake. Just admit it and thank me for pointing out the error. I'm the only one pointing this out because not many people care about history (I used to be among such people at one time, they are indeed a majority too if you check statistics on how familiar Canadians are with their own history).







noob(but not really) said:


> If the ridership were triple(which I think it would be), then a subway would be needed.


I don't think it would be triple. Double, maybe, a bit optimistic but I wouldn't rule it out. Double though, would still be manageable by LRT (with the proper design).

With a multi-unit LRT vehicle, with the proper track and station design (which the TTC wasn't going to implement, FTR), can reach about 1/3 of the capacity a 6-car subway can with ATC (which none of the current system has except Sheppard, and Sheppard can't really take advantage of it due to lack of demand), 1/2 or more the capacity of a 6-car subway without ATC. The difference is coming from variations in the headway limitations and, directly related to that, signal system differences.







noob(but not really) said:


> You can't assume that. Knowing how long the public has been shortchanged, they'd be more inclined to welcome it than protest.


Didn't work for the ROWs (they went through anyway, yes, but not without a fight or in St.Clair's case, a court battle), and they didn't even require expropriation, so why would it work for your subway? Expropriating property is NOT popular, this is simply common sense. You should only be doing this if you have to, not because it's convenient. You have no sense of humanity.

You have to assume and prepare for the worst. Nothing goes without a hitch in these kinds of projects.







noob(but not really) said:


> Try revenue service without any structural work. hno:
> 
> And I already told you I don't care for interlining.


You may not care for interlining, but the TTC has it in their system, which is what matters (the fact that it is there), it is also there for Sheppard I'll point out (has never been used for carrying passengers, but it used use for yard access), and the streetcar system is interlined like crazy - you think the streetcars should cease the interlining practice? You're crazy.


----------



## noob(but not really)

TRZ said:


> I put no words in your mouth


ScrapeTheSky did, in the St. Clair thread, and you believed him. But I already posted there, so we'll leave it at that.





> The Jane Subway debate is a separate thread (and I suggest we leave it there). I am correcting your misconveyance on the facts of history - because you did make a mistake. Just admit it and thank me for pointing out the error. I'm the only one pointing this out because not many people care about history (I used to be among such people at one time, they are indeed a majority too if you check statistics on how familiar Canadians are with their own history).


I will not admit to a mistake, because there wasn't one. The most I'll give you is not elaborating enough for your tastes.





> I don't think it would be triple. Double, maybe, a bit optimistic but I wouldn't rule it out. Double though, would still be manageable by LRT (with the proper design).


If it's between double and triple(or just double) I think it would be enough(but I still think ridership would be triple) to build a subway when you factor in that transfer, and that the situation wouldn't be as desperate with LRT. 





> With a multi-unit LRT vehicle, with the proper track and station design (which the TTC wasn't going to implement, FTR), can reach about 1/3 of the capacity a 6-car subway can with ATC (which none of the current system has except Sheppard, and Sheppard can't really take advantage of it due to lack of demand), 1/2 or more the capacity of a 6-car subway without ATC. The difference is coming from variations in the headway limitations and, directly related to that, signal system differences.


Oh crap. My theory is looking more plausible now, because the TTC would'nt have went with this "proper design". 





> Didn't work for the ROWs (they went through anyway, yes, but not without a fight or in St.Clair's case, a court battle), and they didn't even require expropriation, so why would it work for your subway? Expropriating property is NOT popular, this is simply common sense. You should only be doing this if you have to, not because it's convenient. You have no sense of humanity.


But it would happen anyway. Look at Sheppard. My plan just speeds up the process.





> You have to assume and prepare for the worst. Nothing goes without a hitch in these kinds of projects.


Good idea. We can fall back on your plans if mine fail.





> You may not care for interlining, but the TTC has it in their system, which is what matters (the fact that it is there), it is also there for Sheppard I'll point out (has never been used for carrying passengers, but it used use for yard access), and the streetcar system is interlined like crazy - you think the streetcars should cease the interlining practice? You're crazy.


I meant an interlined service, not connecting lines to one another via tracking. And of course there is a wye for Sheppard, how else would the trains get stored at Davisville? :nuts:


----------



## Epi

noob(but not really) said:


> But it would happen anyway. Look at Sheppard. My plan just speeds up the process.


They built Sheppard under the road. They didn't take away people's homes for this.

I think they should just take away your home and build something on top of it, maybe then you will understand that expropriation kind of sucks.


----------



## TRZ

noob(but not really) said:


> ScrapeTheSky did, in the St. Clair thread, and you believed him. But I already posted there, so we'll leave it at that.


Everybody believes him, and they're right - your poor communication skills had you make an ass of yourself, congratulations, suck it up and show a little humility and then everyone will forgive and forget about it.







noob(but not really) said:


> I will not admit to a mistake, because there wasn't one. The most I'll give you is not elaborating enough for your tastes.


Look, this isn't even the fault of your use of language, it is the fact that you managed to list everything but the most important point in the whole matter, and act like those were the main reasons. The fact is that Electrify was closer to the main issue than you ever were - Electrify referred directly to _transit usage_, a more relevant factor than vehicular traffic. Like I already said, vehicular traffic only shows the capacity supplied. If ridership on that line is stable and not near, at, or over capacity at the 45-second headways, then the situation may not have required a subway and the TTC would have been agreeable to the city's proposal. The key point was that ridership was already at capacity and forecasted to continue to increase. That's the single most important reason, and traffic on Bloor-Danforth does not illustrate this at all, nor do the future extensions and stuff that you mentioned matter compared to that either. Get over it, you messed up, just like in the St.Clair thread, now show a little humility and everyone will forgive and forget about it.

Everybody makes mistakes every so often. Myself included, I concede when I'm proven wrong - I not sure whether or not _you've _proven me wrong yet though, but other forumers have caught me slip up. It happens to everyone sometimes, accept it, shrug your shoulders, and carry on. You act like a child who is completely undisciplined and used to always getting his way with his parents. That's why I asked how old you are. Show some maturity here. We're supposed to be adults. I'm not interested in dealing with a 12 year-old.







noob(but not really) said:


> If it's between double and triple(or just double) I think it would be enough(but I still think ridership would be triple) to build a subway when you factor in that transfer, and that the situation wouldn't be as desperate with LRT.


The situation wouldn't be as desperate with LRT because LRT has the capacity to keep up.




noob(but not really) said:


> Oh crap. My theory is looking more plausible now, because the TTC would'nt have went with this "proper design".


Well, the original design can be modified at a later date for the most part, except for Kennedy, the most complicated part (that would be back to square one for that station... no MCC references ). Kennedy's not cheap, but way cheaper than doing a new subway station and extension. Your theory is no more plausible now as a result of this. It would have been a much easier situation to work with than the reworking the RT is facing right now - and would be possible to keep the Streetcars in service with a small amount of temporary trackage since the infrastructure required for them can be minimal if needed - ICTS can't be as accomodating, and that's what would keep LRT going instead of replacing it with a subway. On what grounds do you think ridership would be triple, btw?







noob(but not really) said:


> But it would happen anyway. Look at Sheppard. My plan just speeds up the process.


You totally missed the point. Unbelievable. See Epi's post.







noob(but not really) said:


> Good idea. We can fall back on your plans if mine fail.


Why not save 10s of billions of dollars and over a decade of time and just skip your plan altogether, we know it will fail anyway.







noob(but not really) said:


> I meant an interlined service, not connecting lines to one another via tracking. And of course there is a wye for Sheppard, how else would the trains get stored at Davisville? :nuts:


Streetcars? Hellooo? Do you oppose interlined streetcar routes?


----------



## hkskyline

*TTC revamps approved 
Transportation agency recommends province give the TTC $424 million for signal system, new trains*
November 24, 2007
Tess Kalinowski
Toronto Star Transportation Reporter

The TTC has received fresh support to expand capacity on its overburdened Yonge-University subway line in a large package of transit improvements approved yesterday by the Greater Toronto Transportation Authority.

The province's new transportation planning body is recommending the province give the TTC $424 million over the next five years to install an automated signal system and add 21 trains and crossover tracks on the 55-year-old Yonge line.

Together, the improvements would allow Canada's oldest and busiest subway line to handle 30 to 50 per cent more passengers by 2017.

Work on the signal system, known as automatic train control, has already begun as part of keeping the TTC in good repair.

The computerized system, considered the international standard, replaces the colourful wayside signals that tell train operators whether to speed up, slow down or stop.

But as the TTC tries to keep up with a backlog of renovations, items like that have contributed to a massive shortfall predicted to hit the commission's long-term capital budget.

If the province agrees to pay for the subway improvements, it would alleviate that shortfall – an estimated $698 million to $1.5 billion between 2008 and 2012 – according to TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

The new trains, to be delivered starting in 2009, can accommodate about 10 per cent more people – 1,200 to 1,300 passengers – and are considered about three times as reliable as the existing model.

They also come ready to use the new signal system, which will make it possible to run them at higher frequency, said Giambrone, who also sits on the GTTA.

"You take all of that together and we have up to a 50 per cent capacity increase. You could run a train every 10 seconds but you wouldn't be able to get people on and off trains, so you have to be realistic," he said.

The Bloor-Danforth line, which isn't quite as crowded yet, will eventually be converted to automatic train control too, he said.

The GTTA also is recommending $7.1 million for startup costs on the Transit City light rail network and a designated bus lane on Yonge St. between Finch and Steeles Aves. that would give mass transit vehicles from around the region priority on the heavily congested stretch.

The subway improvements, including the new Toronto Rocket trains, are a prerequisite to expanding the Yonge subway into York Region, TTC chief general manager Gary Webster told the GTTA.

The TTC projects were among more than a dozen selected by the authority as the next round of transportation priorities among a $9 billion regional wish list.

Others include bus rapid transit along Hurontario St. in Mississauga, another BRT line along Dundas St. in Burlington and Oakville, and service expansions on York Region's VIVA transit.

There's no guarantee Queen's Park will fund the projects, but all are among the 52 improvements called for in Premier Dalton McGuinty's MoveOntario 2020 plan, announced in June.

An earlier list of so-called "quick wins" – projects chosen because they could be initiated quickly and demonstrate the GTTA's seriousness about getting the region moving – was released in July.

It included a series of GO Transit expansions, improved bus service in Hamilton and a new Cornell transit terminal in Markham.

In September, McGuinty endorsed that list.

The GTTA has also committed to creating an integrated web-based trip planner that would allow transit users to easily plot trips that require transferring across the various regional transit systems.


----------



## TRZ

^^ It isn't mentioned in the article, but that signal system improvement on the Yonge will also allow all-night service on the Yonge (trains would probably be turning back at Union at first during the initial operation period?)


----------



## hkskyline

*Still a subway to nowhere? 
Construction booms, but opinions remain sharply divided as the often-derided Sheppard line turns 5 *
24 November 2007
The Toronto Star










The futuristic chrome plating in Sheppard-Yonge station already looks a little scuffed. But it was only five years ago - Nov. 22, 2002 - that then-mayor Mel Lastman cut the ribbon to open Toronto's northern east-west subway line, accompanied by a phalanx of dignitaries, reporters, children and musicians. Even the U of T's infamously discordant engineering department band came out to crash the event in the former North York, piling onto the subway cars with tubas and drums in tow. 

The new line was always central to Lastman's long-held dream, going back before amalgamation, to when he was mayor of North York and wanted it to have a downtown - an urban focal point that could compete with the big one in the old city of Toronto. The Sheppard line would not only spur development along its path, but speed commuters into North York City Centre. 

There were tall buildings in the area before this subway opened, but five years of operation has transformed the landscape. Both Yonge St. and Sheppard Ave. E. are dotted with construction sites and billboards announcing new projects. Tens of thousands of residents have moved into the corridor, with tens of thousands more to come. 

But old questions still dog the billion-dollar line. Why is it still so easy to get a seat on the trains? Why are the sidewalks on Sheppard so empty? Are we creating urbanity or merely plunking a lot of tall buildings into a suburban landscape where residents are more likely to drive than walk or use transit? 

It depends who you ask. 

"A very definite urban design theme has emerged," says Niall Haggart, vice-president of the Daniels Corp., which has brought more than 2,500 condo units to the corridor. "I think that someone will be able to walk out of their building and have eyes on the street." 

He adds that when the NY Towers project was introduced, "it was marketed with the Sheppard subway clearly front and centre." 

Dianne Braun, who lives in a condo near Bayview Ave. and Sheppard, says the subway is a pleasant amenity - but she doesn't use it. She drives to her job as an executive assistant even though her office is right on the subway, too, at Yonge and Eglinton. 

"I get free parking at the office, and it's underground parking, so I prefer it," she says, though she thinks the Sheppard subway has made her neighbourhood more desirable. 

Jane Renwick, editor of Urbanation, a quarterly that tracks Toronto's condo market, is among those impressed by downtown North York's transformation. 

"There's a lot of highrise residential," she says. "You look at it, and you think, 'This could be any small city in the U.S.' ... it's becoming a bigger centre, and I think that's ultimately because it's a transportation hub." 

Then there's Brian Harvey, a librarian who lives in a condo near Yonge and rides the Sheppard line to work every day. 

"There's absolutely nothing along Sheppard that's worth going to, except for IKEA, if you're an IKEA person, and I'm really not," he says. "Other than that, there's about 25 blocks between anything of note." 

Harvey might be exaggerating a bit, but Sheppard today still has the feel of a high-speed suburban arterial - an adolescent road in the midst of a sudden and painful maturation. New towers loom behind single-family bungalows. Parkettes front onto six uncrossable lanes of speeding traffic. And nearly everywhere you look, there's construction. 

Near Sheppard and Leslie St., giant piles of earth mark the site of the biggest project of all: Concord Park Place, a 17-hectare master-planned community that is expected to eventually hold 10,000 residents. It's so big it will have its own shuttle bus to ferry people to and from the nearest TTC stations - Bessarion and Leslie, the two least-used subway stops in Toronto. 

Change hasn't been easy. The scale and speed of the developments that followed the subway took both residents and elected officials by surprise. The city found its land-use plans being overturned by the Ontario Municipal Board, the provincial panel that has the last word on what gets built in Toronto. Meanwhile, neighbourhood associations waged trench warfare against developers who wanted to build towers - almost literally - in their backyards. 

"We didn't really care for the subway along Sheppard," says Poonam Jain, president of the Bayview Village Association. "It didn't seem to make sense. Even now, people are talking about how Mel Lastman managed to wrangle it, even though there were other places in Toronto that needed subways." 

Jain says residents knew there would be some development along the way, but not this much. With development comes noise, disruption and traffic - traffic that overflows from Sheppard and infiltrates the winding, residential streets nearby. 

"We had a lovely peaceful place here - an island of serenity - and it's being destroyed," she says. 

In response, groups such as the Bayview Village Association and the Sheppard-Leslie Homeowners Association - a group formed specifically to fight another new development - dug in their heels, insisting that the condo towers be scaled back, if not cancelled. 

But the subway is also the reason some condo-dwelling, transit-riding newcomers have chosen to make the area home. 

"When we moved to Toronto, we basically lived here for the subway," says Nori Bradley, a former Vancouverite and now a University of Toronto medical student who lives at Bayview and Sheppard. Like her husband, she commutes to the old downtown every day. Bradley says that living on the subway lets her leave her car in the garage 80 per cent of the time, except for trips to Costco and her husband's hockey games. 

This summer, during the budget crisis at city hall when Mayor David Miller mulled mothballing the Sheppard line as a cost-saving measure, the story hit home. 

"Closing it down would totally change our lives," Bradley says. "To shut it down would be like shutting us off from everything." 

In the end, the line was spared, but the so-called "subway to nowhere" remains a subject of debate and an object of derision, even if daily ridership has risen steadily over the past five years to 43,260 from 34,700 (Projections had called for 48,000 in Year 1). 

The line was originally meant to run out to Scarborough, but was truncated to its current five stations. Construction started in parallel with another line along Eglinton West - a project that many continue to argue was a much bigger priority. But after the provincial Conservatives came to power in 1995, work was halted and the Eglinton pit filled in. Lastman and others, however, won a reprieve for Sheppard. 

The fact that Sheppard was never built to its full length still rankles city councillor David Shiner. A committed supporter of the line, Shiner pins the neighbourhood's growing pains on the line's curtailment, and the OMB, which let development run beyond what the city had planned for. 

"We've ended up in a situation where there's almost double the development that was proposed, the traffic impacts have been horrendous and the subway line does not carry people anywhere but to Yonge St. and downtown," he says. 

"I think the No. 1 priority of the city right now should be to complete the Sheppard line out to Scarborough. The residents of Scarborough and the residents of North York deserve to have a better trans link into the centre of the city." 

To the dismay of Shiner and other subway boosters, finishing the line doesn't seem to be in the cards any time soon. The TTC's latest plan for the corridor calls for a streetcar right-of-way, or LRT, to complete the route along Sheppard. 

"Instead of spending a billion dollars to finish the line, we can do (about) 10 times as much LRT for that same amount of money," TTC chair Adam Giambrone says. 

Giambrone adds that he'd like to see the subway finished, but it could be decades before enough ridership and money are in place. 

Meanwhile, many still ask whether Sheppard - with its asphalt-surrounded malls, long blocks and suburban cul-de-sacs dotted with occasional highrises - was ever a good candidate for a subway. 

Among those is veteran transportation consultant Ed Levy. 

"A few highrise towers on the skyline does not indicate subway-type density," he says. 

"There's hardly a building more than 20 or 25 storeys high in all of Brooklyn," he says, "but it's lined with neighbourhoods that have townhousing and four- to six-storey apartments solidly, mile after mile after mile. They're able to fill up subway lines running about a mile apart." But here, he says, single-family neighbourhoods are sacrosanct. 

"Any time someone dares breathe something over three, four, five storeys, there's general hysteria." 

Ken Greenberg, a local planning consultant, points out that Sheppard is "relying on bus feeder lines, as opposed to a large walking population around it." 

To truly be successful, he says, the city needs to allow intensification away from the major intersections where towers are currently sprouting, and into the entire catchment area for the subways - including the quiet neighbourhoods, whose residents want none of it. 

But for the people, like Bradley, who bought a home to be on the subway, the subway means one thing: a way to get downtown - the real downtown. 

"The state of transit in Toronto is a joke. I mean, it's the biggest city in Canada; if you don't live on the subway line, you can't get anywhere."


----------



## Electrify

> Dianne Braun, who lives in a condo near Bayview Ave. and Sheppard, says the subway is a pleasant amenity - but she doesn't use it. She drives to her job as an executive assistant even though her office is right on the subway, too, at Yonge and Eglinton.


$10 bucks says she would be able to get to her work about 10 times faster at rush hour on the subway than by driving, save a ton in gas too.

Anyways, they should not have built Bessarion, and instead built a station at Willowdale Ave, or even closer to Yonge St. This I think would have spread out downtown North York into an actual area, rather than simply a strip.

Also, allow metropass or even free parking at Don Mills station. This would be great for car commuters from Aurora, Newmarket, Georgina, etc. where taking the Viva or driving to Finch or York Mills may not be practical (if you are to drive to Leslie to park, you might as well drive to York Mills and skip the transfer).

And of course, Eglinton or a DLR would have made much more sense than Sheppard.

(How Harris got re-elected is totally beyond me)


----------



## Electrify

Also, if they had designed it as a branch of the Yonge line from downtown Toronto, it would have made so much more sense than to make passengers transfer needlessly, not to mention help relieve congestion on the Yonge line through midtown.


----------



## TRZ

Electrify said:


> And of course, Eglinton or a DLR would have made much more sense than Sheppard.
> 
> (How Harris got re-elected is totally beyond me)


Yep. Nooo contest. How did he get re-elected? One number: 905.

I have proposed incorporating Sheppard into a DRL in other threads, turning it south along Vic Park until Eglinton Square area, then swinging through Flemingdon Park and Pape Village on the way to downtown along Richmond and Adelaide (and reconnecting to the B-D at Dundas West). This would see its ridership skyrocket since it would allow it to be used as a transfer-free access into downtown along many locations that are popular but not serviced directly by Yonge.


----------



## TRZ

Electrify said:


> Also, if they had designed it as a branch of the Yonge line from downtown Toronto, it would have made so much more sense than to make passengers transfer needlessly, not to mention help relieve congestion on the Yonge line through midtown.


There was a reason for this: Finch Station alone sees twice as many rides as the entire Sheppard Line. 

The infrastructure is already designed in a way that would allow Sheppard trains to run directly through on the Yonge, so it is not a question of it not being designed to do so. It is an operations decision to keep as many trains going to Finch as possible. The math would certainly suggest that this is a smart move.


----------



## allurban

Electrify said:


> (How Harris got re-elected is totally beyond me)


Harris got re-elected for 3 reasons. The 905 area, as TRZ mentioned...the fact that there was very little strong opposition against him...and because people were shell-shocked...here was a politician who actually did what he said he was going to do...cut spending even (especially?) if it hurt people...some people wanted to see what he would do next....:bash:

Reminds me of the Simpsons again

Mayor Quimby: "I cant stand you people, you're all crazy"
Springfield resident: "Give us hell, Mayor! Wooo hoo!"

Cheers, m


----------



## TRZ

allurban said:


> some people wanted to see what he would do next....:bash:


It's the same reason people who hate Howard Stern listen to his show more on average than people who love him.


----------



## UD2

Electrify said:


> $10 bucks says she would be able to get to her work about 10 times faster at rush hour on the subway than by driving, save a ton in gas too.
> 
> Anyways, they should not have built Bessarion, and instead built a station at Willowdale Ave, or even closer to Yonge St. This I think would have spread out downtown North York into an actual area, rather than simply a strip.
> 
> Also, allow metropass or even free parking at Don Mills station. This would be great for car commuters from Aurora, Newmarket, Georgina, etc. where taking the Viva or driving to Finch or York Mills may not be practical (if you are to drive to Leslie to park, you might as well drive to York Mills and skip the transfer).
> 
> (How Harris got re-elected is totally beyond me)


1. When you get a chance to drive on Shapperd Ave. from Bayview to Younge St. at anytime, you'll realize that there is no such thing as rush hour traffic. 

2. Bessarion station was built for the Canadian Tire/shopping complex and future development. Also to shorten the gap between Bayview and Leslie, which is much larger than Bayview and Younge. Plus, a station at willowdale would be too close to Younge to be justifiable. There is a cost issue involved. 

3. Don Mills station is built on top of Fairview mall, there are planty of parking spaces there. There are usually always spaces near the TTC entrance. Otherthan that, there are no other parking locations around Don Mills station.


----------



## TRZ

UD2 said:


> Also to shorten the gap between Bayview and Leslie, which is much larger than Bayview and Younge. Plus, a station at willowdale would be too close to Younge to be justifiable. There is a cost issue involved.


Incorrect. The distance between Bayview and Leslie is comparable to Bayview and Yonge's distance - while it is true that Bayview to Leslie is longer, it is not by a wide margin. Willowdale has no spacing issues as it would be about equal to the distance from Bessarion to the next station in either direction. Willowdale would frankly have had more value than Bessarion in terms of ridership since Willowdale is a far more recognized street and holds more activity potential than Bessarion. While stations are indeed expensive and the costs must be evaluated, if Bessarion made the cut, one wonders how Willowdale didn't, particularly since there is some recongizable commercial activity in the area of Willowdale and Sheppard.

Also, it is spelled Yonge, not Younge.


----------



## Electrify

UD2 said:


> 1. When you get a chance to drive on Shapperd Ave. from Bayview to Younge St. at anytime, you'll realize that there is no such thing as rush hour traffic.
> 
> 2. Bessarion station was built for the Canadian Tire/shopping complex and future development. Also to shorten the gap between Bayview and Leslie, which is much larger than Bayview and Younge. Plus, a station at willowdale would be too close to Younge to be justifiable. There is a cost issue involved.
> 
> 3. Don Mills station is built on top of Fairview mall, there are planty of parking spaces there. There are usually always spaces near the TTC entrance. Otherthan that, there are no other parking locations around Don Mills station.


1. Even if that stretch has little traffic, getting from Yonge to Eglinton is a nightmare, especially compared to the subway underground. Even if she took Bayview to Eglinton and across, Eglinton's traffic into midtown is hardly an open road.

2. See TRZ's post. Besides that, I think the higher density of stations contrasting with the lower density would help to widen downtown North York from more than a mere strip, and help to extend it along Sheppard Ave. Kenneth or Dudley might even be a little better, as they would help to minimize a "dead zone" between stations.

3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Fairview Mall's parking open at 10AM, making it useless for 9-5 commuters?


----------



## UD2

Electrify said:


> 1. Even if that stretch has little traffic, getting from Yonge to Eglinton is a nightmare, especially compared to the subway underground. Even if she took Bayview to Eglinton and across, Eglinton's traffic into midtown is hardly an open road.
> 
> 2. See TRZ's post. Besides that, I think the higher density of stations contrasting with the lower density would help to widen downtown North York from more than a mere strip, and help to extend it along Sheppard Ave. Kenneth or Dudley might even be a little better, as they would help to minimize a "dead zone" between stations.
> 
> 3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Fairview Mall's parking open at 10AM, making it useless for 9-5 commuters?


1. I don't know enough about Yonge St. during rush hours, but I do know that the sectino from the 401 all he way down to Lawrance is a breeze. So anyways, the speeds are probabley comparable, and she's just lazy and likes her car.

2. Each side as its arguments, but i hold that the people who made the decisions for the TTC are smart people who knows more than us. I'm not going to second guess on their choice of locations. After all, we don't know what's going to come 10-15 years from now, but they have an idea.

3. Fairview Mall's parking don't close. The mall opens at 10, parking doesn't have a gate. At least non that I know of.


----------



## TRZ

UD2 said:


> 2. Each side as its arguments, but i hold that the people who made the decisions for the TTC are smart people who knows more than us. I'm not going to second guess on their choice of locations. After all, we don't know what's going to come 10-15 years from now, but they have an idea.


The people at the TTC are smart people indeed, but building the Sheppard subway was not a decision made by the TTC, it was forced to build it by Mel Lastman and Council at the time, in conjunction with Mel's salvaging the project from Mike The Knife. If only the former borough of York made some noise, but no signs of opposition came from them, and the Eg was buried. Mel Lastman among other politicians shoved Sheppard down the TTC's throat. They know jack about what they are doing. The TTC did not want it. It is all politics screwing things up. Mel Lastman is not a smart person, not even close. Many people on this forum, myself included, know more about what's good for the TTC better than Mel Lastman. Mel Lastman was only after his wet-dream of NYCC becoming the next Union Station, without a care in the world about the impacts of his selfish stupidity would be on the rest of the TTC and city.


----------



## UD2

TRZ said:


> The people at the TTC are smart people indeed, but building the Sheppard subway was not a decision made by the TTC, it was forced to build it by Mel Lastman and Council at the time, in conjunction with Mel's salvaging the project from Mike The Knife. If only the former borough of York made some noise, but no signs of opposition came from them, and the Eg was buried. Mel Lastman among other politicians shoved Sheppard down the TTC's throat. They know jack about what they are doing. The TTC did not want it. It is all politics screwing things up. Mel Lastman is not a smart person, not even close. Many people on this forum, myself included, know more about what's good for the TTC better than Mel Lastman. Mel Lastman was only after his wet-dream of NYCC becoming the next Union Station, without a care in the world about the impacts of his selfish stupidity would be on the rest of the TTC and city.


North Yorker loved him. 

And in all fairness, Mel was hoping that the province or Ottawa will kick in the funding for the remainder of the line to Scarb Town Center, which at that point will make alot of sense. 

It was a very good plan, the onlything that didn't work out is that everybody in Queen's park and above hated Mel's guts, so he couldn't get any money from anybody. 

Which is the same problem with Miller's government ATM, which is NDP leaning. Toronto just hasn't been in luck when it comes to ties with upper level governments.


----------



## Electrify

UD2 said:


> 3. Fairview Mall's parking don't close. The mall opens at 10, parking doesn't have a gate. At least non that I know of.


_The Don Mills station at Fairview Mall has also sparked further controversy because the commuter lot requires a fee even if one holds a monthly Metropass transit pass; the parking charge was required in order to prevent the limited garage space from being overwhelmed (the regular mall parking is cordoned off until the shopping centre opens)._ 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheppard_subway


----------



## TRZ

UD2 said:


> North Yorker loved him.


And that makes everything so much better :nuts:

Doesn't change the fact that he was a senile retard.



UD2 said:


> And in all fairness, Mel was hoping that the province or Ottawa will kick in the funding for the remainder of the line to Scarb Town Center, which at that point will make alot of sense.


The more this is closely looked at, the more it seems to be a stretch. I used to think that an STC extension would make it prove its worth, but I have doubts now after taking a closer look at various elements of the picture, particularly at the reality of the state of the corridor today - as a corridor, it is extremely weak and not worth a subway, period. Sheppard Subway should never have been built. Two hub termini alone do not a good subway make.



UD2 said:


> It was a very good plan,


No, it wasn't, because it was shoved down people's throats when there were much higher priorities in this city that needed the attention (Eg) far more than Sheppard - Sheppard actually didn't need subway attention at all (LRT would have been plenty for the corridor), and that's the critical failing point of this plan.


----------



## UD2

TRZ said:


> And that makes everything so much better :nuts:
> 
> Doesn't change the fact that he was a senile retard.
> 
> The more this is closely looked at, the more it seems to be a stretch. I used to think that an STC extension would make it prove its worth, but I have doubts now after taking a closer look at various elements of the picture, particularly at the reality of the state of the corridor today - as a corridor, it is extremely weak and not worth a subway, period. Sheppard Subway should never have been built. Two hub termini alone do not a good subway make.
> 
> 
> No, it wasn't, because it was shoved down people's throats when there were much higher priorities in this city that needed the attention (Eg) far more than Sheppard - Sheppard actually didn't need subway attention at all (LRT would have been plenty for the corridor), and that's the critical failing point of this plan.


Different planning philsophies, Sheppard line serves the people in the burbs, while Eglinton serves the city. there's gonna be the argument that why serve future development while the current ones are left unmet, but here is why. 

It was redundent to build a line at Eglinton because the bus lines that run on the road would have to run anyways. Not just the 34 Eglinton East, but also the 100 Flemington Park, 51 Leslie, 54 Lawrance East, and the 56 (I forgot where). You can't build a Eglinton line without significant desruptions to existing travel patterns, where as a Sheppard line only affects the 84 Sheppard. 

Plus, the Sheppard line have brought great convinence to me, (I live on Leslie and York Mills), and I thank the mayor for that. 

Again, as silly and stupid you think Mel Lastman is, he was still mayor of North York and then Toronto for over a decade. I'm not going to second guess him on whatever his plans are, and I don't believe he's dumb.

Maybe once you become mayor, I'll realize that I was mistaken =-)


----------



## Electrify

UD2 said:


> Different planning philsophies, Sheppard line serves the people in the burbs, while Eglinton serves the city. there's gonna be the argument that why serve future development while the current ones are left unmet, but here is why.
> 
> It was redundent to build a line at Eglinton because the bus lines that run on the road would have to run anyways. Not just the 34 Eglinton East, but also the 100 Flemington Park, 51 Leslie, 54 Lawrance East, and the 56 (I forgot where). You can't build a Eglinton line without significant desruptions to existing travel patterns, where as a Sheppard line only affects the 84 Sheppard.
> 
> Plus, the Sheppard line have brought great convinence to me, (I live on Leslie and York Mills), and I thank the mayor for that.
> 
> Again, as silly and stupid you think Mel Lastman is, he was still mayor of North York and then Toronto for over a decade. I'm not going to second guess him on whatever his plans are, and I don't believe he's dumb.
> 
> Maybe once you become mayor, I'll realize that I was mistaken =-)


_`North York Mayor Mel Lastman says the (Sheppard) route should be rejected because it would spell an end to many of the quiet, residential neighbourhoods lining Sheppard Avenue. Instead, he says, Metro should ease traffic congestion for commuters heading downtown by building a transit line next to the Don Valley Parkway.'

...

The Downtown line was criticized for "focusing development pressure on the core (which) would violate Metro's strategy of decentralizing office growth and throw a wrench into North York's plan for a satellite downtown of office towers and high-rise housing in the Yonge Street-Sheppard Avenue Area".

...

Had the Bill Davis Conservatives remained in Queens Park a year longer, this plan might have become reality. Ever since the opening of the Yonge Subway in 1954, Conservative governments of the day had provided strong support to the TTC and its major capital projects. However, the release of Network 2011 coincided with the defeat of the Conservatives and the formation of the first Liberal government in 42 years. The Liberals, wary of the $5 billion price tag attached to Network 2011, put the plan under review. Infuriatingly, it was at this time that Highway 407 received provincial funds and took the first steps towards construction._

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5111.shtml

So Mel was AGAINST the Sheppard line, Toronto was focused on developing suburbs rather than downtown, and the CONSERVATIVES were for transit while the LIBERALS were for suburban highways?!?

25 years ago, I think Toronto was stuck in Bizarro World or something :nuts:


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## ssiguy2

I think the Sheppard line is a complete failure. 
It would be an effective transit corridor if it went anywhere but it doesn't. If it went to STC in the east and joined up with the Spadina ext or preferably the coming Jane LRT. 
Now all it will do is slow people down from getting from one end of North York to the other. 
Going from Malvern to YorkU will now require LRT to DonMills then Sheppard line to Yonge then transfer to a bus to Spadina and then head north. 
It will be slow, tiresome, and require endless transfers. Thios is exactly the thing that inhibits people from taking transit. This kind of a thing not only makes transit slower but is also viewed as "work" by its patrons. 

Reconfigure TransitCity so that the Sheppard Line is transfered to LRT and goes to Jane to make it a true rapid transit corridor. It would be a crosstown LRT line and be truly rapid. You can have all the rapid transit systems in the world but if they are short with endless transfers to other lines the patron gets tired and the ride is anything but rapid.


----------



## hkskyline

*TTC commits to saving on its energy bills*
Last Updated: Monday, December 3, 2007 | 1:41 PM ET 
CBC News 

The TTC frequently reminds people of the cars it keeps off the roads every day simply by having subway, bus and streetcar service. But now it says it will go even further in its environmental campaign.

The commission says it will begin introducing new subway cars and streetcars with technical improvements that will lower electricity use.

Electricity consumption is the main focus for the public transportation system, which hopes to save money by cutting its use.

The TTC is the second-biggest consumer of electricity in Toronto — after the city's water department — and they're trying to conserve, partly to save money and partly to help reduce greenhouse gas emissions and reduce pollution.

The TTC is also committing that it will get 25 per cent of its electricity from the purchase of more expensive renewable sources, even though that commitment may increase costs by as much as $2.5 million per year.

TTC chair Adam Giambrone says people want renewable energy and he's predicting they are willing to pay for it.


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## TRZ

Electrify said:


> _`North York Mayor Mel Lastman says the (Sheppard) route should be rejected because it would spell an end to many of the quiet, residential neighbourhoods lining Sheppard Avenue. Instead, he says, Metro should ease traffic congestion for commuters heading downtown by building a transit line next to the Don Valley Parkway.'
> 
> ...
> 
> The Downtown line was criticized for "focusing development pressure on the core (which) would violate Metro's strategy of decentralizing office growth and throw a wrench into North York's plan for a satellite downtown of office towers and high-rise housing in the Yonge Street-Sheppard Avenue Area".
> 
> ...
> 
> http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5111.shtml
> 
> So Mel was AGAINST the Sheppard line, Toronto was focused on developing suburbs rather than downtown,_


_


Transit Toronto seems to have conflicted sources on this... the more widely accepted version of the story is here, found at this link also on Transit Toronto - http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5110.shtml



Transit Toronto said:



The fact that Toronto has a Sheppard subway at all is due to the efforts of Mel Lastman. When he was Mayor of North York, he had a grand vision of turning his sleepy suburban borough into a city in its own right, with a downtown to challenge that of the City of Toronto. To his credit, he understood, more than many other people who have tried similar feats, that a downtown can’t be just for cars — pedestrians must be accommodated, as must people who use public transit. So he located his downtown on a major rapid transit line, the Yonge subway, and convinced the TTC to build an additional station, North York Centre, to service it. To further enhance his downtown, he latched onto the proposal to build a subway along Sheppard Avenue between the Spadina subway and the Scarborough Town Centre. By building a rapid-transit crossroads, he believed that development would bloom in his new downtown.

The Network 2011 proposal might have been built had Bill Davis stayed on as premier of Ontario one more year. The fall of the Conservative government of 1985 brought the Liberal Party to power, and they blanched at Network 2011’s $2.1 billion sticker price. The Sheppard line itself was priced at one billion 1985 dollars. The proposal was delayed and deferred, until a scaled-down version was proposed by the Liberals in 1990. Then the Liberals too were defeated, by the NDP and Bob Rae. The Sheppard subway was delayed for another four years.

By the time the NDP granted enough funding to get the shovels into the ground, 1994, the price tag had ballooned and both Queen’s Park and Metro Toronto were reeling from the effects of a major recession. There wasn’t enough money to build all of the needed subways at once, so to get construction started, and to make sure that all of the players within Metro were satisfied with the spending they received, the first phase of the Sheppard subway was cut back from Victoria Park to Don Mills. A shortened Eglinton West subway started construction from the Spadina line to Black Creek Drive at the same time. This political compromise was all for naught, however. As soon as the Conservatives under Mike Harris won the 1995 election, the Eglinton West subway project was cancelled and the province dropped all capital funding of public transit. Sheppard was itself almost cancelled, but Mel Lastman’s lobbying saved the line. After considerable political jockeying (where, at one point, Metro council agreed to build the Sheppard subway tunnels but not the tracks or the stations), the line’s future was confirmed. Construction continued unabated through to 2002.

Click to expand...

_


----------



## TRZ

ssiguy2 said:


> I think the Sheppard line is a complete failure.
> It would be an effective transit corridor if it went anywhere but it doesn't. If it went to STC in the east and joined up with the Spadina ext or preferably the coming Jane LRT.


No, this ship has (for better or for worse) sailed, and it is obvious that the corridor cannot sustain a subway. I'd have liked to see it, but a change of strategy is badly needed - especially considering the competitive tax incentive/advantage the downtown
core can be expected to re-capture after tax reforms start to come into full force in 2015 (or 2012 from the federal level, 2015 is for the municipal level controls). Sheppard should go towards Vic Park as originally planned, but then swing down Vic Park on the way to downtown, via Flemingdon, and via Pape.




ssiguy2 said:


> Now all it will do is slow people down from getting from one end of North York to the other.
> Going from Malvern to YorkU will now require LRT to DonMills then Sheppard line to Yonge then transfer to a bus to Spadina and then head north.
> It will be slow, tiresome, and require endless transfers. Thios is exactly the thing that inhibits people from taking transit. This kind of a thing not only makes transit slower but is also viewed as "work" by its patrons.


OMG!!! You said something I agree with!!!  All hope is not lost on the LRTs though. Transit City's "as is" proposal right now should not be considered the final picture. I have yet to see anything to confirm the rumour, but some people have suggested the TTC is out to build the Sheppard LRT as quickly as possible to get rid of any future pressure on extending the subway further east. I don't know what their take on extensions further south would be though (probably a lot more favourable than eastward though, at anyrate). 
The LRTs are not a lost cause though, because if the Finch West LRT is extended east of Yonge-Finch Terminal, to Don Mills (still along the Hydro Corridor, I'd imagine), the Sheppard and Finch (via Don Mills LRT interline/overlap service) and Jane lines can all interline into one another. Interline with Morningside and Kingston Road and you can almost have a complete loop (just missing the part from Jane Bloor to Roncesvalles), terminating the rest of the Finch West line at York University (as it is a subway connection-to-be), or alternating their interlining (not necessarily recommended, but doable)



ssiguy2 said:


> Reconfigure TransitCity so that the Sheppard Line is transfered to LRT and goes to Jane to make it a true rapid transit corridor. It would be a crosstown LRT line and be truly rapid. You can have all the rapid transit systems in the world but if they are short with endless transfers to other lines the patron gets tired and the ride is anything but rapid.


I am starting to see this idea come up in increased frequency, and people just don't understand that it is not so simple. First off, it is difficult to justify the decomissioning of relatively new infrastructure at great cost to decomission as well as after the great cost to commission in the first place, especially if the long-term forecast is going to see such infrastructure restored at a future date. Yes, the Eglinton Line is being designed as a subway-upgrade-compatible LRT, however, that hardly means for a second that Sheppard is a LRT-downgrade-compatible subway, far from it. Lowering the platforms (among other things, as services such as plumbing are likely inside the platform) is complicated and time consuming - and cannot take place while service is still running (which is the most important part). If the designers are fly, they can design the Eglinton LRT to have most of the necessary upgrades put into place while the thing is still in service. If done in pre-cast concrete component platforms (they could probably do up to 2m wide components, which would require somewhere around 75 components per platform), they might be able to do the cross-over in a week or two. This is a comparatively short service disruption. Converting the Sheppard HRT into LRT, which not only requires lowering the platforms, but heightening the tunnels (streetcars with pantographs require taller tunnels... I can confirm this first hand as I can compare to the Tokyo subway, which do use pantographs on a supreme majority of the system), would surely take close to a year (best case), or more. The bus operations that would be required to supplement the subway provide no meaningful savings and the bus fleet hardly has any vehicles to spare to send such a large platoon to the Sheppard corridor.


----------



## TRZ

UD2 said:


> It was redundent to build a line at Eglinton because the bus lines that run on the road would have to run anyways. Not just the 34 Eglinton East, but also the 100 Flemington Park, 51 Leslie, 54 Lawrance East, and the 56 (I forgot where). You can't build a Eglinton line without significant desruptions to existing travel patterns, where as a Sheppard line only affects the 84 Sheppard.


No, it was not just the 84 Sheppard. Also, you are talking about Eglinton EAST routes, the subway that got cancelled was for Eglinton WEST... HELLOOOOOOOOO :nuts:



UD2 said:


> Plus, the Sheppard line have brought great convinence to me, (I live on Leslie and York Mills), and I thank the mayor for that.


Yep, because the whole city revolves around you, as long as you benefit from the subway it justifies the billion dollar investment the city made in this line, and its 10-million dollar annual shortfall thereafter every year. Nice to know you think so highly of yourself.



UD2 said:


> Again, as silly and stupid you think Mel Lastman is, he was still mayor of North York and then Toronto for over a decade. I'm not going to second guess him on whatever his plans are, and I don't believe he's dumb.
> 
> Maybe once you become mayor, I'll realize that I was mistaken =-)


Well, Mel Lastman was stupid enough to tell then-Councillor David Miller that he'd never be mayor because he "says stupid things"... in response, I believe, to him proposing a motion to renovate the transit connection between TTC Dundas West and GO Transit Bloor stations. Many people are familiar with this quote, and it is a testamate to Mel Lastman's overall stupidity - as Miller has proven himself to be a far better Mayor than Lastman ever was. Lastman was regarded as a clown. Miller has gotten city hall to be taken more seriously, although not without problems of his own, far less problems than those that plagued Mel Lastman. If the smartest man is the man that admits he knows nothing, the dumbest man is the man who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Lastman, obviously used to being Mayor for far too long and had the power consume his sanity long ago, thought he was smarter than everyone else. Obviously, he was wrong, and he's clearly proven he's an idiot. The Sheppard Subway is only one example in a long list of embarrasing screw-ups thanks to Mel Lastman. Other embarassments include his mishandling of Union Station's UPG contract, and those abomidable Mooses. "This is the greatest city in the world!"... it's like a doll with a fucking pullstring. Complete buffoon.


----------



## UD2

TRZ said:


> No, it was not just the 84 Sheppard. Also, you are talking about Eglinton EAST routes, the subway that got cancelled was for Eglinton WEST... HELLOOOOOOOOO :nuts:
> 
> Yep, because the whole city revolves around you, as long as you benefit from the subway it justifies the billion dollar investment the city made in this line, and its 10-million dollar annual shortfall thereafter every year. Nice to know you think so highly of yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, Mel Lastman was stupid enough to tell then-Councillor David Miller that he'd never be mayor because he "says stupid things"... in response, I believe, to him proposing a motion to renovate the transit connection between TTC Dundas West and GO Transit Bloor stations. Many people are familiar with this quote, and it is a testamate to Mel Lastman's overall stupidity - as Miller has proven himself to be a far better Mayor than Lastman ever was. Lastman was regarded as a clown. Miller has gotten city hall to be taken more seriously, although not without problems of his own, far less problems than those that plagued Mel Lastman. If the smartest man is the man that admits he knows nothing, the dumbest man is the man who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Lastman, obviously used to being Mayor for far too long and had the power consume his sanity long ago, thought he was smarter than everyone else. Obviously, he was wrong, and he's clearly proven he's an idiot. The Sheppard Subway is only one example in a long list of embarrasing screw-ups thanks to Mel Lastman. Other embarassments include his mishandling of Union Station's UPG contract, and those abomidable Mooses. "This is the greatest city in the world!"... it's like a doll with a fucking pullstring. Complete buffoon.


1. If we're talking about Eglinton West, when how does Sheppard East even come into play? They're for different purpose. So Plz stop

2. If you're so passionate about the Eglinton Subway, then you certainly are not thinking about the people who live in my area are you? So why does everything have to revolve around in stead? And if the Sheppard line has a 10 million deficit, what do you think the deficit of many other TTC services are? Why don't we just cancel them all? In fact, forget TTC, why don't we cancel health care as well? And public education? Those have deficit too

3. Again Mel Lastman was mayor for over a decade, and he did no worse than what Miller is doing now. And he had much harder times during his term than Miller does right now. He eased the amalgamation of the 5 cities into Greater Toronto very well. You think the city is short of money now? 

now... people have opinions, please stop trying to make everyone think the way you do. It doesn't really matter that much. You now know how i think, and I know what your standpoint is. Please lets stop arguing.


----------



## TRZ

UD2 said:


> 1. If we're talking about Eglinton West, when how does Sheppard East even come into play? They're for different purpose. So Plz stop


hno: You're not very familiar with the history here, obviously. Eglinton was scrapped while Sheppard was allowed to proceed, when this should have been reversed. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about east or west in this case (it does matter really, and it makes Eglinton's case even stronger still, since it would put more action onto U-S than Y, which doesn't need any extra stress like the Sheppard Line supplies), the point is that the corridor gets _started_, and after it is started, it can get _extended_. Both were to be extended as time went on.



UD2 said:


> 2. If you're so passionate about the Eglinton Subway, then you certainly are not thinking about the people who live in my area are you?


Neither are you, actually, as there are a lot of people that lived there before the subway-spurred condo boom that never wanted the subway there in the first place - they still live there, and are not impressed by the change in the corridor. This is probably why Mel Lastman was against Sheppard in the early 80s but 10 years after that had turned into a supporter for it. You can write them off as NIMBYs, but some of their arguments are valid, and more importantly, there are far better places to drop a subway - Eglinton being a big one.


UD2 said:


> So why does everything have to revolve around in stead? And if the Sheppard line has a 10 million deficit, what do you think the deficit of many other TTC services are?


Yonge and Bloor-Danforth Lines turn profits, smart-guy. 


UD2 said:


> Why don't we just cancel them all?


Because some lines do make money - these lines are outnumbered by the lines that lose money though. The main problem in balancing it out is that the loss-incurring lines feed the profitable ones, so you can't cut the loss-making lines without dragging the profitable ones into the red and hurting the system overall. Given the current management of the system, there is no way to realistically trace detailed patterns of where routes are getting fed from.


UD2 said:


> In fact, forget TTC, why don't we cancel health care as well? And public education? Those have deficit too


Health care and public education (excluding post-secondary) are not pay-to-use. The TTC is pay-to-use, so don't compare apples to oranges.



UD2 said:


> 3. Again Mel Lastman was mayor for over a decade,


This is so central to your argument because, why?



UD2 said:


> now... people have opinions, please stop trying to make everyone think the way you do. It doesn't really matter that much. You now know how i think, and I know what your standpoint is. Please lets stop arguing.


 You're posting opinions because you want others to hear your opinions and see if other people agree with your opinions. However, you, on several occasions in other threads, are very prone to spreading bad information - you run around talking like you're in the know but the majority of your so-called facts are actually outright false. I will speak up if I see a false statement try to be passed off as a fact. Mel Lastman being a total retard may be an opinion, but the Sheppard Subway being a bad idea is not an opinion, it is now an established fact as the TTC is clearly trying to abandon the line's future prospects.


----------



## UD2

TRZ said:


> hno: You're not very familiar with the history here, obviously. Eglinton was scrapped while Sheppard was allowed to proceed, when this should have been reversed. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about east or west in this case (it does matter really, and it makes Eglinton's case even stronger still, since it would put more action onto U-S than Y, which doesn't need any extra stress like the Sheppard Line supplies), the point is that the corridor gets _started_, and after it is started, it can get _extended_. Both were to be extended as time went on.
> 
> Neither are you, actually, as there are a lot of people that lived there before the subway-spurred condo boom that never wanted the subway there in the first place - they still live there, and are not impressed by the change in the corridor. This is probably why Mel Lastman was against Sheppard in the early 80s but 10 years after that had turned into a supporter for it. You can write them off as NIMBYs, but some of their arguments are valid, and more importantly, there are far better places to drop a subway - Eglinton being a big one.
> Yonge and Bloor-Danforth Lines turn profits, smart-guy.
> Because some lines do make money - these lines are outnumbered by the lines that lose money though. The main problem in balancing it out is that the loss-incurring lines feed the profitable ones, so you can't cut the loss-making lines without dragging the profitable ones into the red and hurting the system overall. Given the current management of the system, there is no way to realistically trace detailed patterns of where routes are getting fed from.Health care and public education (excluding post-secondary) are not pay-to-use. The TTC is pay-to-use, so don't compare apples to oranges.
> 
> This is so central to your argument because, why?
> 
> You're posting opinions because you want others to hear your opinions and see if other people agree with your opinions. However, you, on several occasions in other threads, are very prone to spreading bad information - you run around talking like you're in the know but the majority of your so-called facts are actually outright false. I will speak up if I see a false statement try to be passed off as a fact. Mel Lastman being a total retard may be an opinion, but the Sheppard Subway being a bad idea is not an opinion, it is now an established fact as the TTC is clearly trying to abandon the line's future prospects.


Eglinton was abandoned because it was unfeasiable to build a line there. I have already provided some of the reasons, and there are many many more. Let's get over this fact, if you don't like it, file a negligent lawsuit against the pervious government. 

You repeatedly insult a mayor who has done great things for a city, and who is responsible for the entire transformation of NYCC. If you don't like him, fine, don't spread false claims about him either. BTW, he can pretty much sue you for defamation at this point (if he sees your posts) and he will have a very good chance of winning. But I hope he won't. So please watch what you say over public forums. 

Not gonna respond to the majority of your pots because they too are opinions.

But prove to me how the TTC is clearly trying to abandon the line's future prospects. Seeking alternative due to lack of funding is not the same as abadoning future prospects.


----------



## TRZ

UD2 said:


> Eglinton was abandoned because it was unfeasiable to build a line there. I have already provided some of the reasons, and there are many many more. Let's get over this fact, if you don't like it, file a negligent lawsuit against the pervious government.


This is what I was talking about with your statements being false when you claim they are facts. The Eglinton subway was not abandoned because it was unfeasable. That's got to be one of the biggest pieces of BS you've posted. If it was unfeasable, it would never have gotten to the point where construction had started. It was already under construction when it was cancelled, so obviously it had been studied and argued feasable, although the methods of these studies are questionable since they gave Sheppard a green light as well. The only reason Eglinton was abandoned was because its provincial support was withdrawn. What happened to the Spadina Expressway happened to the Eglinton Subway in a sense, they were killed by the exact same political mechanics, although in different eras and under very different circumstances with completely opposite motives and results. You have not provided any actual reasons, either, since you failed to even focus on the proper portion of route. Eglinton has long been a priority corridor across its entire length on the TTC's map of expansion priorities - there are multiple such maps among report documents on its website. The TTC has studied numberous corridors and is in the process of other studies - always is. Sheppard is not as important as Eglinton, not even close.



UD2 said:


> You repeatedly insult a mayor who has done great things for a city, and who is responsible for the entire transformation of NYCC. If you don't like him, fine, don't spread false claims about him either.


They're not false, these have already been through the news, if they were false, the news stories would have been retracted, which never happened, nor were any libel suits filed. NYCC is not that significant anyway - if it were, the Sheppard Line would have been more successful, but it isn't. Things may still change over the next 5 years, but that was also said 5 years ago. The Sheppard Line has yet to meet its ridership projection for its first year - that's sad.


UD2 said:


> BTW, he can pretty much sue you for defamation at this point (if he sees your posts) and he will have a very good chance of winning. But I hope he won't. So please watch what you say over public forums.


No, he wouldn't, because I'm backing it up with actual facts, things that he actually did. Yeah, he would have preferred them to be kept secret since they surely are of no benefit to his reputation, but that's too bad for him. Don't act like he has some moral superiority over anybody, he's a very corrupt politician.



UD2 said:


> Not gonna respond to the majority of your pots because they too are opinions.


hno: You totally do not know the difference between fact and opinion. To you, facts are what you agree with and anything you disagree with is an opinion. You just don't want to take part in a debate you can't win.



UD2 said:


> But prove to me how the TTC is clearly trying to abandon the line's future prospects. Seeking alternative due to lack of funding is not the same as abadoning future prospects.


If the TTC was serious about extending the line, they would have pushed for an extension of that subway line in Transit City's proposal - and they would have gotten it too with the provincial spending spree in effect. Also, the transfer in the middle of the corridor is a big deal, that's not conductive to ridership at all. I suspect that this has some relationship to the Don Mills line and Finch line should the Finch line get extended east of the York Region Terminal. The people at the TTC are clearly not impressed with the performance of the Sheppard Subway Line so much that they are prepared to cut their losses and improve suburban access to the system by other, lower-risk methods. Not continuing the subway is a big deal, that is a decision that would have been carefully weighed, especially given the priority they had been placing on it in earlier years. They would have at least tried to pull a partially underground LRT at its connection point at Don Mills, but that is not something I would expect to happen at this point - the fact that they want to do the Sheppard Line first in Transit City, another mystery since that is not in sync with the reports published for the evaluations of each line (the report strongly points to Jane before Sheppard, but Jane is not getting first dibs), is further evidence that they want to put a cork in the subway extension's public pressure. They are going to tunnel Eglinton in the same manner as a subway would be tunneled for that LRT though, which shows that the TTC is indeed *very *serious about the Eglinton subway coming, probably sooner rather than later, as that is unquestionably the next Bloor-Subway-in-waiting (...except for the Etobicoke portion).


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## allurban

TRZ said:


> They are going to tunnel Eglinton in the same manner as a subway would be tunneled for that LRT though, which shows that the TTC is indeed *very *serious about the Eglinton subway coming, probably sooner rather than later, as that is unquestionably the next Bloor-Subway-in-waiting (...except for the Etobicoke portion).


Therein lies an interesting point...why did network 2011 include an Eglinton "West" and a Sheppard "east" line? Was TTC looking at a trying to build a subway in a different way from Bloor Danforth (which was built across the city then extended at both ends)?

One wonders why the planners didnt want to build the Eglinton and Sheppard lines the same way as Bloor Danforth, extending east and west from Yonge, and reducing pressure on Yonge and Spadina as well?

Perhaps they were keen on Eglinton West and Sheppard East for other reasons? The first phase of the Eglinton West line would have ended at Black Creek Drive, and would have lots of space for parking or a future yard. The Sheppard East line would end at Don Mills road, again, with space for future yards and lots of parking....or development as needed...

I expect that the initial costs of tunneling east and west from Yonge....would have been alot higher, but the result would be very effective at completing a network...and reducing pressure on Yonge.

I believe that the TTC would be in a better network position today if they had built Eglinton and Sheppard extending east and west of Yonge.

Even if they stopped subway construction and moved to LRT, it would not be so bad...this would be following the tried-and-true success of bloor-danforth, which still ran streetcars at the ends of the lines for some years before extensions happened. 

Any thoughts?

Cheers, m


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## TRZ

allurban said:


> Therein lies an interesting point...why did network 2011 include an Eglinton "West" and a Sheppard "east" line? Was TTC looking at a trying to build a subway in a different way from Bloor Danforth (which was built across the city then extended at both ends)?


My understanding is that this was partially to do with politics (serving both east and west ends equally), and partly to do with the plans for sub-downtowns - of which Sheppard-Yonge is supposed to be one of them. Eglinton would have seen additional use go into the Spadina subway, underused at the time, arguably still is today although it is showing stronger signs lately these days. Eglinton I believe was also supposed to be a boom for Mount Dennis area - back then, a GO Station at that location had already been proposed, and the environmental assessment for that station is already complete, GO just has to make a RFP (or do it in-house at their engineering dept.). 



allurban said:


> One wonders why the planners didnt want to build the Eglinton and Sheppard lines the same way as Bloor Danforth, extending east and west from Yonge, and reducing pressure on Yonge and Spadina as well?


There's a good argument that if both Sheppard and Eglinton both went in both directions from Yonge, Yonge would not be able to handle it. Too much demand, not enough capacity. There isn't enough capacity already today - capacity south of Bloor has been maxed out for years. The ridership on that portion has been steady, but would have actually gone up if there was capacity to absorb the demand, but there isn't, so ridership is flat at its max-out point. I have raised serious concerns about Transit City causing this problem before as well.



allurban said:


> Perhaps they were keen on Eglinton West and Sheppard East for other reasons? The first phase of the Eglinton West line would have ended at Black Creek Drive, and would have lots of space for parking or a future yard. The Sheppard East line would end at Don Mills road, again, with space for future yards and lots of parking....or development as needed...


Sheppard East was supposed to end at Victoria Park, not Don Mills. If Sheppard did need its own yard, it probably would have gone just south-east of Leslie, across the East Don. But you are absolutely correct about Eglinton West, a yard could easily be worked into either the rail corridor or the Flats.



allurban said:


> I expect that the initial costs of tunneling east and west from Yonge....would have been alot higher, but the result would be very effective at completing a network...and reducing pressure on Yonge.


I beg to differ. How do you figure they would not add pressure on Yonge? I totally do not see the logic in that statement.



allurban said:


> I believe that the TTC would be in a better network position today if they had built Eglinton and Sheppard extending east and west of Yonge.


There's a good argument that skipping Sheppard and doing just Eglinton in both directions would have had the most network "oomph". The projections in the Transit City reports certainly seem to strongly support this, Eglinton is a ridership cow waiting to be milked. The thing with Sheppard though, as others have pointed out before either in this thread or others, is that Finch would have been better than Sheppard for a subway north of Eglinton. Indeed, Transit City's reports show the Finch West line performing stronger than Sheppard East's corridor by a confortable margin.



allurban said:


> Even if they stopped subway construction and moved to LRT, it would not be so bad...this would be following the tried-and-true success of bloor-danforth, which still ran streetcars at the ends of the lines for some years before extensions happened.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Sorry, this is not the same as Bloor-Danforth at all. The biggest difference is one that you already have mentioned: Bloor-Danforth went in both directions from Yonge. Also, Bloor-Danforth also had a strong streetcar presense comparable to Yonge's before it became a subway and had to turn itself into a subway too in order to meet demand. The demand in Sheppard did not warrant a subway. Eglinton is such a rich corridor though that even though its not got the streetcar presense already, the high demand and high-development pockets along it, make it a very safe bet that Eglinton would be far stronger than Sheppard and would likely see high use in a much sooner timeframe than Sheppard will take to build up.


----------



## Electrify

I was reading up on Transit City on Wikipedia, and it appears that other lines are going to be tunneled in high density areas as well. So from what I can gather, the TTC hopes for their LRT to be very fast and rapid throughout the city.


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## TRZ

Electrify said:


> I was reading up on Transit City on Wikipedia, and it appears that other lines are going to be tunneled in high density areas as well. So from what I can gather, the TTC hopes for their LRT to be very fast and rapid throughout the city.


It's not confirmed. Some corridors have pockets that are challenging. Jane for example is encountering concerns from residents along sections where the road is narrower. Only Eglinton has been confirmed to have a significant amount of tunnels. Others are currently being studied, but it is true that some other parts have problems. That said, Sheppard I doubt will be one of them, it has been encountering some of the least amount of opposition surprisingly enough.


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## UD2

TRZ said:


> It's not confirmed. Some corridors have pockets that are challenging. Jane for example is encountering concerns from residents along sections where the road is narrower. Only Eglinton has been confirmed to have a significant amount of tunnels. Others are currently being studied, but it is true that some other parts have problems. That said, Sheppard I doubt will be one of them, it has been encountering some of the least amount of opposition surprisingly enough.


Why would that be surprising? It was fielded as an alternative to the subway, which is holds very high in opinion to the people who lives in North York, Scarb and even Markham. Only it costs 10 times less, so it could actually happen. 

The TTC wants to push it through because it also saves them some embracement from the ATM useless Sheppard line. 

And the province have little problem with it because they have to fund something anyways. 

The only people who would not like the Sheppard LRT are the ones who don’t get their lines built as early. But that's how the system works, you can't make everyone happy. Everyone is going to think that they're more important than the other guy, so what determines priority comes down to politics. 

The Eglinton line will never be prioritised just because of the cost of its underground section. The TTC would rather build twice the distance at grade at other locations, than build the Eglinton line at a near subway cost. It really doesn't matter how important the Eglinton line is or becomes, its cost pretty much dooms it to the end of the line. 

First 3 should be Sheppard, Jane and Finch.


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## ssiguy2

I STILL hold firmlyabout transferring Sheppard subway over to LRT and then ext it to Spadina or prefferable to Jane. 
Yes, transferring Sheppard to LRT wouldn't be easy but a hell of a lot cheaper than ext Sheppard to STC or west Spadina/ Jane. 
It could be started in the east first closing Don Mills and when that is transferred the LRT could run that far and so on. It wouldn't have to be done all at once. 
Also if kept to its current configuration I think Sheppard will DECREASE in riidership due to being an ineffective crosstown as people start to realise that getting from STC to York is acttually longer than it will be now. This is because right now due to Sheppard you take the line to DonMills and then transfer ONCE to get on the bus to STC but when the LRT comes on stream you will transfer TWICE because you will get on the LRT but then have to take a bus from the Sheppard LRT down to near STC but have to TRANSFER on to a bus south over the 401 to get STC. 
If the line was just LRT was a complete LRT to Spadin one would only take the bus north to LRT and then enjoy a comfortable NON-TRANFERABLE trip to Spadina. 

Remember transferring Sheppard to LRT will be an added cost but extending to Spadina/Jane will be hundreds of millions cheaper than ext Sheppard subway all the way over to Jane. 

Why do people hate the ScarRT? Thats becuase it is too busy and requires than long walk transfer. Note the word TRANSFER. People hate to do it. If they keep the current configuration Sheppard is niothing but a group of transfers. 

Also as said Sheppard subway will decrease in ridership as not only will be a bigger pain in the ass than it already is but also much of the traffic takes the line to get to the Yong line but that traaffic will be as heavy when they will be able to take the coming DonMills LRT to the Bloor line. 

Transferring the whole line from on end to Malvern to Jane to complete LRT would save a small fortune than extending the Sheppard line to Spadina little alone than Jane. 

It would non of the fuckin transfers that people hate..................faster, more comfortable seemless ride, cheaper, and be an effective RT line from one end of the city to the other.


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## splashflash

*Sheppard LRT*

I have heard that conversion of the Sheppard subway into an lrt would not be possible since the tunnel is too low for pantograph operation. Perhaps a retracting pantograph could be devised so that the system could be similar to the Boston subway Blue Line. The Blue Line has pantographs and third rail. The pantographs are used on the outskirts of the city centre.

I doubt this would be practical. The Spadina Line should be extended to Yonge along Sheppard, costing $1 B, so that Sheppard is a spur of Sheppard. Eglinton subway should revert to a Eglington West line. The savings of the Eglinton line (subway) east of the Allen Rd would pay for the Sheppard West extension. An lrt tunnel would be even more costly than a third rail subway tunnel to account for pantograph; however the stations could be smaller, but would need to be enlarged later at great expense.

I think that Transit City purposely left Sheppard as a stubway to prove their point politically, that the subway would never work. Also, lrt is not 10x cheaper than subways. The lrts are about $40 M / km and the subways about $150 / km, and at most $200 M / km. That is a fifth. LRT poponents such as Giambrone are out by a factor of two. If they were looking at busways versus subway, they would be correct.


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## UD2

splashflash said:


> Also, lrt is not 10x cheaper than subways. The lrts are about $40 M / km and the subways about $150 / km, and at most $200 M / km. That is a fifth. LRT poponents such as Giambrone are out by a factor of two. If they were looking at busways versus subway, they would be correct.


dispatching, signalling, stations, transfers, stock, maintenance and the extra electricity cost all cost money (when compared to overhangs, the third rail is a very inefficient way of transferring energy). When you add those up, it comes to 8 or 9 times the cost. I may have played it up a bit, but that’s exactly how the people who make the decisions are gonna tried to spin it. And they're not exactly wrong about it either. 

When you build LRT, you do the road work, put the wires in and you're pretty much done with it other than the scheduled maintenance. A subway would require alot more extra background operations.


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## splashflash

> dispatching, signalling,


If an lrt is worth anything it will have dispatching and signalling; otherwise it will be like the streetcars, little better than buses. LRTs have both, just as subways do, and those systems are expensive



> stations, transfers


,
I agree, if the stations are simply made. The Calgary LRT stations on the north lines are no cheaper to build than SRT stations, as they travel in the middle of fast paced arterials. If Toronto avoids this, and builds a glorified bus stop similar to the stations on St. Clair, costs will stay down.



> stock,


If the stock is similar to the new streetcars, not at all. $5 M each, the price being heard in advance of final tendering, is very costly. The replacement subway cars from Bombardier, of which I was critical since there was no competitive bidding, look like a good deal, considering the number of people the carry compared to the proposed streetcars.




> maintenance


If you want cheap maintenance, stick with buses, especially hybrids. 

Station maintenance is costly for subway, but so is it for space lost (ie taxes not paid because of lost paid parking spaces or building space). Unfortunately, land taxes are lost to road space and rail space kept in the public domain; whereas, if buildings were there, taxes would be collected.




> and the extra electricity cost all cost money (when compared to overhangs, the third rail is a very inefficient way of transferring energy).


Peanuts really. Electrical squirrel cage motors are similar, and the conductive path is not that different.



> When you add those up, it comes to 8 or 9 times the cost.


You have to do better than that, and so should politicians who are managing a lot of taxpayer money.

It was rather ironic to see all the talk about having to shut down the Sheppard subway to save money. When it came down to the studies, not much at all would be saved. It was interesting that Sheppard was chosen in the first place, and I think that shows how much politics has been played.





> When you build LRT, you do the road work, put the wires in and you're pretty much done with it other than the scheduled maintenance. A subway would require alot more extra background operations.


Again, this is all spin. With this logic, buses are what should be run since they are the cheapest to maintain and don't need any rails, wires or signalling systems. I am not at all against lrt, and I especially agree with you that Eglinton should be at the end of the queue, not the front, because it is essentially a subway. I am strongly against people, especially people who are highly paid, the chair of the TTC and should know better, making specious arguments with regard to public money.


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## allurban

TRZ said:


> I beg to differ. How do you figure they would not add pressure on Yonge? I totally do not see the logic in that statement.


The point is that by going east and west from Yonge, the Eglinton and Sheppard subways would link both Yonge and Spadina.

Essentially, this would mean reduced pressure on Yonge and greater use of the Spadina line...

Sheppard perhaps could have run from Bayview to York University, (or as you suggested, a Finch line instead of Sheppard). Eglinton would have been very successful running from Bayview to Dufferin or Caledonia.

With these lines in place there would probably been more demand for GO Train connections, and a push for improved, higher frequency GO services...so that would also reduce some of the pressure on the Yonge line...by encouraging commuters to opt for GO Transit when traveling longer distances.

Had this been done, there would be 3 east-west subway lines, 2 north-south subway lines, and two north south GO lines offering frequent service...a complete network with lots of potential for expansion

Cheers, m


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## TRZ

allurban said:


> The point is that by going east and west from Yonge, the Eglinton and Sheppard subways would link both Yonge and Spadina.
> 
> Essentially, this would mean reduced pressure on Yonge and greater use of the Spadina line...


This depends on their final destination. I don't think it would actually work that way given what current travel patterns look like. It becomes an argument of 2 transfers versus no transfers, which are riders going to opt for?


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## TRZ

UD2 said:


> Why would that be surprising? It was fielded as an alternative to the subway, which is holds very high in opinion to the people who lives in North York, Scarb and even Markham. Only it costs 10 times less, so it could actually happen.


That's the logic behind all of TC's lines, but some do run into opposition, like Jane, and I think Don Mills might fight against some parts of it (based on the opposition of its busway to Castle Frank that got defeated by community opposition). The thing with Sheppard is that it has more space than other corridors along most of the route, since development is so low along that line east of Vic Park, with the exception of the Agincourt GO Station perhaps.



UD2 said:


> The TTC wants to push it through because it also saves them some embracement from the ATM useless Sheppard line.


It's not going to help it become useful since the transfer remains. The TTC is trying to send a different message, I think, mainly that there should be no subway along this corridor.



UD2 said:


> And the province have little problem with it because they have to fund something anyways.


There's an ignorant comment. They don't have to fund anything they don't feel like funding. The current provincial government has offered to fund all of Transit City as a package deal. The TTC could have put whatever plan they wanted and the province would have funded it in its MoveOntario2020 announcement. This was done as a vote-buying scheme, and it seems to be working. The TTC was actually expecting it to take a lot longer to get the province on board, they were totally caught off-guard. The province actually hasn't looked at the proposal in that much detail, I'd wager. They just looked at the price tag and then assumed the city that did the planning behind the proposal had looked after the rest of the issues surrounding it, since McGuinty's job here is just to shovel the cash - the real work happens at the municipal and commission level. The province doesn't really care as long as they get elected thanks to the transit funding - and can cut the ribbon with photo ops. MoveOntario2020 basically said "money is no issue".



UD2 said:


> The only people who would not like the Sheppard LRT are the ones who don’t get their lines built as early. But that's how the system works, you can't make everyone happy. Everyone is going to think that they're more important than the other guy, so what determines priority comes down to politics.


Not in TC's case. The queue has been decided on strongest projections of ridership to the system, and what kinds of locations each corridor services, including connections to other operators. The relationship to the Official Plan is also weighed in, such as, for example, servicing "priority neighborhoods". Sheppard is the only anamoly, as its queue number doesn't match these qualifiers. I will agree that in Sheppard's case, politics is playing into it, but for the others, its projections and other qualifiers deciding it, not politics. The funding has already been promised, so politics is not as important now.



UD2 said:


> The Eglinton line will never be prioritised just because of the cost of its underground section. The TTC would rather build twice the distance at grade at other locations, than build the Eglinton line at a near subway cost. It really doesn't matter how important the Eglinton line is or becomes, its cost pretty much dooms it to the end of the line.


Thank you for proving you know absolutely nothing about the TTC. Eglinton is already the number one priority. Eglinton is by far the line of choice for pretty much everyone on TTC staff, and probably a majority of the commission from city council (since it cuts through a very large number of wards) and the reports prove that it is a ridership-cow waiting to be milked. The Eglinton Line has the strongest projections almost across the board. Its biggest failing is its cost, yes, but its projections are strong enough that its worth the investment. The TTC has been after a solution to Eglinton for a long time, as it has long been a priority across its entire length as needing higher order transit in previous (and current) studies of corridors.



UD2 said:


> First 3 should be Sheppard, Jane and Finch.


Eglinton, Jane, and Finch. Sheppard should be sent to at least 4th place, I'd say 5th since the West Waterfront Line should also go ahead of Sheppard, but the TTC is eager to end the subway issue once and for all.


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## TRZ

ssiguy2 said:


> Yes, transferring Sheppard to LRT wouldn't be easy but a hell of a lot cheaper than ext Sheppard to STC or west Spadina/ Jane.


You might be surprised actually. Renovating an existing structure is more expensive than tearing down the old structure and building it new. 


ssiguy2 said:


> It could be started in the east first closing Don Mills and when that is transferred the LRT could run that far and so on. It wouldn't have to be done all at once.


Hey genius, only at Sheppard-Yonge and Don Mills stations can trains turn around. Switches are not present at the rest of the in-between stations, IIRC, so that means _yes, you do have to do it all at once._



ssiguy2 said:


> Remember transferring Sheppard to LRT will be an added cost but extending to Spadina/Jane will be hundreds of millions cheaper than ext Sheppard subway all the way over to Jane.


Except you haven't explained how the service disruption would be handled - which would be at least a year. 



ssiguy2 said:


> Also as said Sheppard subway will decrease in ridership as not only will be a bigger pain in the ass than it already is but also much of the traffic takes the line to get to the Yong line but that traaffic will be as heavy when they will be able to take the coming DonMills LRT to the Bloor line.


Actually, the Don Mills LRT could become the Sheppard Subway's saving grace - far moreso than the Sheppard LRT.



ssiguy2 said:


> Transferring the whole line from on end to Malvern to Jane to complete LRT would save a small fortune than extending the Sheppard line to Spadina little alone than Jane.


You're still underestimating both the costs of the conversion itself and the costs associated with a year's (or more) disruption of service - and the lost ridership that would result from that disruption.


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## hkskyline

*TTC pair tell riders where to get off
Two staffers are the voices of automated system *
National Post
7 December 2007

There are more than 13,000 bus stops in this city, and Cheryl Bome has said each and every one of them; some several times over. 

Ms. Bome, a hardworking single mother from the west end, is one of the unlikely voices of the TTC's new $6.6-million automated stop announcement system. She can be heard on buses and streetcars across the city, letting riders know when to get off in a perfectly calm and measured tone--at least, by the time she was finished recording. 

"Fortunately, we have the opportunity to record them perhaps two or three times if I get tongue-tied," Ms. Bome said. 

Exactly 11,202 bus stops and 1,347 streetcar stops have been geo-coded on the TTC's GPS system so far; the remaining are to be completed by February. 

Many of the stops have the same names -- there's a Finch East stop on all the north and south routes that cross the road, for instance -- so Ms. Bome had only about 5,500 voice files to record. She has already done 4,669, which are in use on buses throughout the city. 

The task was big, but, in keeping with the transit system's perpetual money crisis, the recording process wasn't a costly operation. Both Ms. Bome, a TTC administrative assistant, and Sue Bigioni, a TTC communications assistant who taped the stop announcements for the 70-station subway system, are regular TTC staffers plucked from the crowd after a little market testing. 

Interestingly, the two women say their voices are so much alike that even people who know them sometimes mistake Ms. Bome's announcements for Ms. Bigioni's, and vice versa. 

"It's kind of funny that two independent focus groups picked voices that are very similar," Ms. Bigioni said. 

The announcements were recorded in a makeshift studio in the office of the Talking Buses project manager, Steve Perron. 

Some routes were more of a mouthful than others -- Lawrence East, for instance, has a whopping 207 stops. 

Once recording was underway, the women realized many of Toronto's street names have multiple potential pronunciations. 

One street Ms. Bome stumbled on was Fifeshire, a windy road in the area of York Mills and Bayview Avenue -- it turned out that the commonly preferred pronunciation of the second syllable was "sure," not "shire." 

"It's all in the pronunciation," Ms. Bome said. "That's where a lot of the calls will come back in if you've mispronounced a particular street name." 

Trethewey Drive, a street near Black Creek Drive and Eglinton Avenue West, is technically pronounced "Tretha-way," but is known to most Torontonians as "Tre-thoo-ey." Ultimately, the decision was made to record the names the way they were commonly spoken by locals or radio and television traffic announcers. 

"You're not going to say 'Treth-a-way,' because no one's going to know to get off at the stop," Ms. Bome said. 

Though neither woman plans to make voice work a future career, Ms. Bigioni has already been offered a paid job recording the English announcements on a transit system in China. The Mayor of Chongqing noticed her voice while visiting Toronto, and contacted Ron Wandel, the city's manager of investment attraction, to find out how to contact her. The Chinese city is currently preparing scripts for her. 

Programs to automate announcements began about two years ago at both the TTC's surface and subway systems, when the commission decided all stops should be announced regularly. The plan was sped up in July, when the Ontario Human Rights Commission ruled the TTC had just 30 days to start announcing all surface route stops. 

Ms. Bome says that with so many passengers listening in so many different places, it's hard not to get a little stage fright. But she has learned a few tricks through the recording process. 

"If I thought about the millions of people that might hear it, I would get nervous," Ms. Bome said. "So I picture myself on the bus, and how clearly I would want to hear the voice announce the stop that I needed."


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## UD2

TRZ said:


> Eglinton, Jane, and Finch. Sheppard should be sent to at least 4th place, I'd say 5th since the West Waterfront Line should also go ahead of Sheppard, but the TTC is eager to end the subway issue once and for all.


I don't think the Eglinton line was included in the Move Ontario 2020 Quick Win head start EAs. I think the initial report said Sheppard, Jane and one more. I forgot which it was. But it shouldn't have been Eglinton.

I'm sure the TTC sees it as important, heck I see it as important. But what determines first place? Certainly not TTC, they're not paying for the entire thing. And the Eglinton along with Down Valley West and York South raiding ridings (which the Eglinton line will eventually run through) already votes liberal. 

However, Parkdale on the Jane line votes NDP. Zimmerman in Willowdale still holds a shaky lead in willowdale along the Finch line. The Don Valley East long the Don Mills line has been very safe liberal, and everything along the Sheppard line are Liberal. Morningside line has a couple iffy ridings and the rest are pretty much safely liberal as well.

I'd think Jane Finch and Morning side are good vote winning start-ups for the next time around. And people's needs aside, it's not like Eglinton Lawrence and York South are going to vote Tory the next time around. And plus, if they do their things right they can probably hold on to Don Valley West for one more time around as well. After all, Tory did piss off the Jews with his catholic School thing.

I'm sure public transit affects more than just one riding. But it affects the ridings that it passes through the most.


----------



## TRZ

UD2 said:


> I don't think the Eglinton line was included in the Move Ontario 2020 Quick Win head start EAs. I think the initial report said Sheppard, Jane and one more. I forgot which it was. But it shouldn't have been Eglinton.


But it IS Eglinton, these first three were the TTC's (and City Council's commissioners in particular) to decide, not Queen's Park's decision. I've read the report you're referring to, I know.



UD2 said:


> I'm sure the TTC sees it as important, heck I see it as important. But what determines first place? Certainly not TTC, they're not paying for the entire thing.


They're not paying for it, true, but given the exceedingly large scope of MoveOntario2020, the province is simply not capable of trying to micromanage anything at this scale. They are going to be leaving it to the local level to make these decisions. They may prefer not to, I'll agree to that, but they are being forced to since it would require far too many resources among other problems for them to get too deeply involved themselves. They are being forced to do the smart thing and leave it to the municipal level and operator agencies to do the fine details, and we should be grateful it is playing out that way, because it results in the Eglinton Subway getting the green light as soon as possible.



UD2 said:


> However, Parkdale on the Jane line votes NDP. Zimmerman in Willowdale still holds a shaky lead in willowdale along the Finch line.
> 
> I'm sure public transit affects more than just one riding. But it affects the ridings that it passes through the most.


As long as it isn't already on a subway line like Willowdale's and Parkdale's hno:


----------



## allurban

hkskyline said:


> *TTC pair tell riders where to get off
> Two staffers are the voices of automated system *
> 
> 
> Trethewey Drive, a street near Black Creek Drive and Eglinton Avenue West, is technically pronounced "Tretha-way," but is known to most Torontonians as "Tre-thoo-ey." Ultimately, the decision was made to record the names the way they were commonly spoken by locals or radio and television traffic announcers.
> 
> "You're not going to say 'Treth-a-way,' because no one's going to know to get off at the stop," Ms. Bome said.


Now that is interesting...I remember reading that "Yonge" is actually supposed to be pronounced "Yawnj"

But like "Treth-a-way" no one would get off at "Yawnj" station

Cheers, m


----------



## TRZ

allurban said:


> Now that is interesting...I remember reading that "Yonge" is actually supposed to be pronounced "Yawnj"


What year? :lol: As long as I've been around, it's always been "Yuhngh" to me... is that phonetic spelling right? :nuts:


----------



## hkskyline

*Free ride home New Year's Eve *
7 December 2007
The Globe and Mail

Whether you're sweating in a packed nightclub, freezing at Nathan Phillips Square, or watching Dick Clark on TV with friends, if you pop too much bubbly on New Year's Eve, the TTC will get you home for free. 

The Toronto Transit Commission voted in favour of a suggestion by chairman Adam Giambrone to offer free service after midnight on Dec. 31, as well as to extend the subway's hours to 4 a.m., in an effort to reduce drinking and driving. 

The TTC last offered free New Year's admission in the late 1970s. 

“Hopefully, what it will mean is that people will make the right decision when they are out having a good time on New Year's Eve, and decide to use the ‘Better Way' to get home,” Mr. Giambrone said. 

He said the move will cost the cash-strapped transit agency – which had to raise fares by 15 cents this fall – only $80,000 to $90,000 in lost revenue. 

(Last year, he said the idea wasn't possible, suggesting it would cost between $500,000 and $1-million.) 

Mr. Giambrone added that the transit agency is now looking for corporate sponsors, observing that beer companies have picked up the tab for free New Year's Eve service for other transit agencies in the past. 

The idea initially ran into resistance from the TTC's lawyer, Brian Leck, who argued that it might be necessary to charge a nominal fee, such as a penny, for legal reasons. For example, riders enter into a contract when they pay their fare, he said, giving the TTC power to eject people who are “unruly.” But the TTC later said all legal concerns were satisfied. 

TTC chief general manager Gary Webster also said he doubted the move to free fares would result in a large number of new riders. 

Many transit systems across the country, including Vancouver, Edmonton and Halifax, and other smaller bus services in the Toronto area, as well as GO Transit have offered free rides for New Year's Eve.


----------



## UD2

TRZ said:


> What year? :lol: As long as I've been around, it's always been "Yuhngh" to me... is that phonetic spelling right? :nuts:


youngh??


----------



## UD2

hkskyline said:


> *Free ride home New Year's Eve *
> 7 December 2007
> The Globe and Mail
> 
> Whether you're sweating in a packed nightclub, freezing at Nathan Phillips Square, or watching Dick Clark on TV with friends, if you pop too much bubbly on New Year's Eve, the TTC will get you home for free.
> 
> The Toronto Transit Commission voted in favour of a suggestion by chairman Adam Giambrone to offer free service after midnight on Dec. 31, as well as to extend the subway's hours to 4 a.m., in an effort to reduce drinking and driving.
> 
> The TTC last offered free New Year's admission in the late 1970s.
> 
> “Hopefully, what it will mean is that people will make the right decision when they are out having a good time on New Year's Eve, and decide to use the ‘Better Way' to get home,” Mr. Giambrone said.
> 
> He said the move will cost the cash-strapped transit agency – which had to raise fares by 15 cents this fall – only $80,000 to $90,000 in lost revenue.
> 
> (Last year, he said the idea wasn't possible, suggesting it would cost between $500,000 and $1-million.)
> 
> Mr. Giambrone added that the transit agency is now looking for corporate sponsors, observing that beer companies have picked up the tab for free New Year's Eve service for other transit agencies in the past.
> 
> The idea initially ran into resistance from the TTC's lawyer, Brian Leck, who argued that it might be necessary to charge a nominal fee, such as a penny, for legal reasons. For example, riders enter into a contract when they pay their fare, he said, giving the TTC power to eject people who are “unruly.” But the TTC later said all legal concerns were satisfied.
> 
> TTC chief general manager Gary Webster also said he doubted the move to free fares would result in a large number of new riders.
> 
> Many transit systems across the country, including Vancouver, Edmonton and Halifax, and other smaller bus services in the Toronto area, as well as GO Transit have offered free rides for New Year's Eve.


Only if they advertise this properly. Let people know about it. It'll be the best idea to get in contact with bars and nightclubs and have them channel the message through.

And exactly how are they going to deal with promissory estoppel entangled with a "gift" offer, when they need to refuse someone entrance onto the bus? Unless they found other forms of consideration? How do other free transit services operate? anyone know?


----------



## allurban

TRZ said:


> What year? :lol: As long as I've been around, it's always been "Yuhngh" to me... is that phonetic spelling right? :nuts:


This goes back further than you do...

It goes back 215 years, back to the British general who they actually named the street after.

According to my textbook in Urban Toronto, his name was pronounced...as "Yawnj"

It makes me wonder, when did people start referring to Yonge St. as "Yuhngh" rather than "Yawnj"

Cheers, m


----------



## TRZ

allurban said:


> This goes back further than you do...
> 
> It goes back 215 years, back to the British general who they actually named the street after.
> 
> According to my textbook in Urban Toronto, his name was pronounced...as "Yawnj"
> 
> It makes me wonder, when did people start referring to Yonge St. as "Yuhngh" rather than "Yawnj"
> 
> Cheers, m


That's interesting, and a good question indeed.


----------



## Northern Lotus

HELP:
I seem to have difficulty finding the exact length of TTC subway system, only vaguely remember it is 64 miles of km.
Thanks.


----------



## Electrify

^^68.3 km (including SRT)

Wikipedia is your friend 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_subway


----------



## sumisu

Electrify said:


> ^^68.3 km (including SRT)
> 
> Wikipedia is your friend


Wrong! Wikipedia is like crack, I can't stop clicking random page. I think I need to go to rehab or somethin' :nuts::nuts::nuts:


----------



## Electrify

> Man critical after bus platform beating
> 
> A man was taken to hospital in critical condition this afternoon after being severely beaten on the bus platform at the Sheppard subway's Don Mills station.
> 
> The man, whose name hasn't been released, was standing waiting for a bus at the station at about 3 p.m. when he was attacked by another man, said Toronto police Staff Sgt. David Simpkins.
> 
> The attacker robbed the victim, but police aren't yet saying what was taken.
> 
> The attacker then fled.
> 
> The victim was taken to hospital with critical injuries.
> 
> There have been no arrests.
> 
> Buses and trains are still operating at the station, which sits in North York at the far east end of the Sheppard subway line, TTC spokeswoman Marilyn Bolton said.
> 
> Buses are dropping passengers off outside the station, but aren't driving up to the bus platform while police investigate.
> 
> Anyone with information is asked to call police at 416-808-3300 or Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-TIPS (8477).


http://www.thestar.com/News/article/292907

Pretty scary, especially cause that station is near me and I sometimes use it during the midday...

Here's hoping they catch that SOB


----------



## hkskyline

*Kennedy subway closed *
Toronto Star
February 05, 2008

Commuter headaches will continue today as Kennedy Station remains closed in the wake of yesterday’s train derailment.

Though repair crews worked throughout the night to open the section for today’s rush hour, the damage proved too extensive, forcing officials to keep the line closed for at least for the morning.

Buses will continue to shuttle passengers between the Warden and Kennedy stations, but commuters are being asked to factor the additional time into their trip.

Danny Nicholson, public affairs officer for the TTC, said it’s not known how long the station will remain closed, adding everything is being done to return subway service.

Service at the station was shut down around 1 a.m. Monday when a train was beginning its last westbound run along the Bloor-Danforth line. It was changing directions at the Kennedy subway station when the last car of a six-car train tipped off the track inside the tunnel.

Although it isn’t known what caused the accident, TTC Chair Adam Giambrone speculated yesterday something being dragged along the line was possibly to blame.

He said a section of the car’s undercarriage or a metal ceiling tile caught up underneath the train could have forced the car off the track.

The leaning car damaged the interior wall of the tunnel as well as switches, signals and portions of the track.

The train was travelling at a slow speed and none of the four riders, or two crew members, were injured.

With service stopped between Kennedy and Warden stations yesterday, the TTC scrambled 30 buses to shuttle passengers between the stations adding, on average, an extra 30 minutes to the commute. Kennedy station is a busy stop along the line as it connects the Bloor-Danforth line to the Scarborough RT and provides access to GO Transit.

With files from Tess Kalinowski


----------



## Skybean

It's a shame that such a critical station would be shut down for two days in a row. Buses simply cannot makeup for a missing subway train. In effect the whole system was slowed because of this incident due to buses being rerouted to ferry passengers traveling past the derailment. 

I'm disappointed that maintenance crews couldn't catch this... but then again, I'm not surprised at all. "Maintenance" is obviously kept at a bare minimum on the TTC. There's garbage floating around the tracks like strewn newspaper, water bottles and rodents running around the tracks all of the time. Broken escalators are routinely left for "repair" for 3 months in already antiquated stations which were not designed for the passenger flows that exist today.

All in all, the city has become all too reliant on an antiquated system with too few subway lines.


----------



## ale26

Bottom line...Toronto subways are crap.


----------



## urbanfan89

If it weren't for the fact that City Hall keeps plodding on between cutbacks and budget crises, I would have complete faith that Transit City would vastly improve the TTC. But not so, obviously.


----------



## LordMandeep

> All in all, the city has become all too reliant on an antiquated system with too few subway lines


yet ridership grows from 444 million last year to 460 million this year. 

Clearly shows the city, if we had a better system, ridership would be huge, and prehaps already way past 500-600 million riders a year...


----------



## TRZ

hkskyline said:


> Time to do some research before making your points.


Yeah, you being so smart and all that, you go ahead and prove my point for me (bravo!):



hkskyline said:


> _Fleet Sizes per 2006 TTC Annual Report_
> 2006 - 1543 +50
> 2005 - 1491 *-11*
> 2004 - 1502 +13
> 2003 - 1489 +21
> 2002 - 1468 *-12*
> 2001 - 1480 +12
> 2000 - 1468
> 
> So your argument that the fleet size is actually going down is not valid at all. In fact, the trend points to an increasing direction, and as of 2006 there were more buses than ever before.


No, it did go down some years, and that was the point I was making, it means that they are losing more buses than they can replace. How many buses arrived for 2005? 249? So if they are keeping the old ones, how do they net lose 11 in the total fleet? Yeah, exactly, it is because you don't know what you're talking about, like we've been telling you. Same goes for 2002.



hkskyline said:


> Quite easy to understand how new orders are affecting the fleet size movements over the years. Hence. *it is logically incorrect* to blindly remove all the old buses from the aging analysis. There definitely is no 1:1 swap to retire the old fleet. The numbers tell that quite balatantly. Try to learn the concept of differences and ratios.


You can't do math, it is as simple as that. You do not simply add the number of vehicle years in the one year to the previous year, you are incompetent. You are completely neglecting the new orders that arrive replacing the old ones that retire, thus your numbers are totally useless, and as a bonus, you get to look like an idiot. See, in ratio, if you have 1502 buses in 2004 and then 1491 buses in 2005 when 249 new arrivals debut, how many buses retired? Yeah, that's right wise one, learn rate and ratio, it means 260 of the oldest in the fleet are gone and your numbers are total fabrications from your little fantasy land.




hkskyline said:


> I'm not at all surprised at this kind of reaction. Full of inconsistencies and weaknesses. I suggest learning more and researching from what the TTC has published to better understand how their fleet modernization is structured, and to learn some more math. This should be basic stuff.


Indeed it is basic stuff, it is amazing you screw it up with such a blantant oversight and incapacity to account for the concept of "replacements" that obviously do take place by the very fact that the fleet numbers go DOWN as new buses arrive. What more proof could you possibly need? Also, don't waste your time trying to act like you know anything about the TTC, we are Toronto natives and transit advocates too, we know far better than you'll ever know, there's just no comparison, you cannot possibly compete. The only weaknesses and inconsistencies are coming from you, as only your math has been proven wrong here... repeatedly I might add (you do remember "addition", don't you?).


----------



## KGB

> If you check the 2006 Annual Report, your argument falls apart immediately. The bus fleet actually increased from 1491 in 2005 to 1543 in 2006, and is different from the 2004 and 2003 figures as well. So if it was a buy and retire program strictly speaking, then there is no way the fleet size could've had that variability over the past few years when there were new deliveries year after year.



Well, first of all, I never said they did a syncronized 1-for-1 swap...it doesn't work that way.

But let's do some simple math shall we?

According to your numbers, in 2002 the fleet size was 1468, and in 2005, it was 1491, for a net increase of 23 vehicles.

We also know that 482 new Orion 7 Diesel Low Floors were added to the fleet from 2002-2005. The only way the fleet size could increase by only 23, is if 459 buses were retired from the fleet.

Same goes for 2006...fleet size is 1543, for a net increase of 52 buses over 2005. Yet we know that 150 Orion 7 Hybrid Low Floors and 80 Orion 7 Diesel Low Floors were added to the fleet in 2006. Again, this means that 178 were retired.

Same goes for 2007...same will go for 2008.

I'm afraid you've run out of old buses to give you your 15 year average age. Even if by the end of this year there are still a few "old" buses (as in more than 5 years old), they will be ones that were completely rebuilt in 2002, and not quite ready for retirement.

Why don't you just stop your tap-dancing and simply back up what you were called on. If you claim the average age of a TTC bus is 15 years, then give us all the buses...when they were built, and do the simple math to arrive at your claim.




KGB


----------



## Top Gear

KGB said:


> most of the TTC's bus fleet is less than 5 years old


Hahaha very funny


----------



## Homer J. Simpson

I was under the impression that this was the Toronto Subway thread....... I must have made a mistake somewhere.


----------



## canadave87

^^ To say this thread meanders from topic to topic, only some of which are related to the subways in Toronto, is an understatement at best.


----------



## hkskyline

TRZ said:


> Yeah, you being so smart and all that, you go ahead and prove my point for me (bravo!):
> 
> No, it did go down some years, and that was the point I was making, it means that they are losing more buses than they can replace. How many buses arrived for 2005? 249? So if they are keeping the old ones, how do they net lose 11 in the total fleet? Yeah, exactly, it is because you don't know what you're talking about, like we've been telling you. Same goes for 2002.
> 
> You can't do math, it is as simple as that. You do not simply add the number of vehicle years in the one year to the previous year, you are incompetent. You are completely neglecting the new orders that arrive replacing the old ones that retire, thus your numbers are totally useless, and as a bonus, you get to look like an idiot. See, in ratio, if you have 1502 buses in 2004 and then 1491 buses in 2005 when 249 new arrivals debut, how many buses retired? Yeah, that's right wise one, learn rate and ratio, it means 260 of the oldest in the fleet are gone and your numbers are total fabrications from your little fantasy land.


New Order Deliveries (TTC Annual Reports)
2003 deliveries : 100
2004 deliveries : 119 + 17 = 136
2005 deliveries : 237 + 12 = 249
2006 deliveries : 150 + 80 = 230

Fleet Changes (TTC Annual Report)
2003 - 2004 net change : +13 buses
2004 - 2005 net change : -11 buses
2005 - 2006 net change : +52 buses

Notice for every year since 2003, when the large orders were starting to be filled, more buses came online than the net change, which means that there are some new buses that have not yet replaced an old bus, meaning some old buses remained on the fleet despite the new buses coming in. Exception is from 2004-2005, whereby there were 136 deliveries yet the fleet went down, meaning it was likely a 1:1 swap plus some more buses were retired without replacement.

However, looking at the 2005 and 2006 stats as well, it's very clear that when 249 new buses were delivered in 2005 yet the fleet went up by 52 buses only, that some of the old stuff remained.

Thus, your belief that it was a 1:1 swap and hence a 1:1 subtraction of the old buses' age totals from the average calculation is not only incompetent, it's reckless and wrong. 

Here is a simple reconciliation to make the point come home even further, and how obvious a 1:1 swap is a logical error. Yet only a simple addition and subtraction can reveal it.

2005 year-end fleet size : 1491
2006 deliveries : 230
2006 removals : 178
2006 year-end fleet size : 1543

Simple subtraction. Don't understand how that is so difficult to comprehend. It's quite logical that a 1:1 swap is not even feasible or logical to begin with considering there was service expansion. Perhaps fantasy land has set in.

In fact, how would you subtract the retired buses' total age from the average computation when we don't know which buses were retired and how old they were? That has always been the caveat to my calculations and I made that very clear in an earlier post already in #455. Since you have forgotten already here it is again :



hkskyline said:


> In fact, my 15 includes keeping the old buses, as there is no evidence so far to suggest how much bus scrapping is taking place, hence it is logically flawed to assume the best case scenario without appropriate evidence. That mathematical computation is still correct.


So if you want to interpret my numbers again, then it would be a conservative figure assuming all the old buses were kept. Removing all the old buses is definitely out of the question. That's not a valid assumption to begin with. Unless we get fleet information, we cannot make that calculation. However, what is very clear is that the actual true number is not likely to be near 5 at all as first claimed by *KGB*. That was what my calculation referred to - to make it very clear how illogical that estimate is.

And I doubt you can come up with a better estimate given the data available either. I think this part we both agree. 

I suggest you look into the context of my calculations and see what they're trying to achieve. This isn't an exercise of oh my number is the one true number in the universe, but rather a response to a very crude estimate from *KGB* that doesn't make much sense and cannot be backed up by a reasonable calculation. It doesn't take rocket science math to detect these major errors.

In fact, I'll bring a more hypothetical example to show how wrong that 5-year figure is.

From the year-end number and delivery reconciliation like I did for 2005-2006 above, I come up with the following fleet removals :
2005 : -260
2006 : -178

We know at the end of 2004 the average age is 14 years from the article. At the time the fleet size was 1502, so the total number of vehicle years = 21,028.
*Assuming* the very old buses were taken out of the system, like the 30 year-old ones you alluded to before, you will subtract 30 * (260+178) = 13,140 vehicle years (assuming that in 2005 all the buses taken out were 30 years old and the same in 2006 - big assumption, but it will be a conservative estimate).

End of 2004 : 21,028 - 13,140 = 7888 vehicle years
2005 vehicle years = 1491
2006 vehicle years = 1543
Total @ 06 year-end = 10,922
2006 # Fleet = 1543
Average = 7 years (this is likely the best case scenario)

Let's do a sensitivity analysis as I doubt there are 438 30-year old buses in the fleet even at the end of 2004.

If the average age of the bus taken out of the system is 20 years old :
Calculation becomes : 
Total Vehicle Years : 21,028 - 438*20 + 1491 + 1543 = 15,302
2006 # Fleet = 1543
Average = 9.9 years

Even in the likely best case scenario, the estimate is 7, and I think the likely actual figure is around 10 as in the 2nd calculation.

I'll keep scanning the media and the TTC website for more recent fleet figures when they're available.

The point of all this is, you need to know exactly what you should take out (yes, you know this), but also how you should take that out (no, you don't know this, not after you claim it's a 1:1 swap).


----------



## city_thing

ohhhhhhhhhhhhh my gaaaawd will you two quit yo bitchin'! 

This thread is so dull as well! There's never any pictures or anything, only articles about how the system's underfunded. Can't you show us the cool things about the Subway, not just the depressing articles? You don't make this thread very exciting for outsiders, this thread might as well be in the Toronto section. Spice it up!


----------



## hkskyline

Feel free to add your photos in here as well. You're all welcome to do so. 

Source : http://www.pbase.com/ssahmed/root


----------



## TRZ

hkskyline said:


> New Order Deliveries (TTC Annual Reports)
> 2003 deliveries : 100
> 2004 deliveries : 119 + 17 = 136
> 2005 deliveries : 237 + 12 = 249
> 2006 deliveries : 150 + 80 = 230
> 
> Fleet Changes (TTC Annual Report)
> 2003 - 2004 net change : +13 buses
> 2004 - 2005 net change : -11 buses
> 2005 - 2006 net change : +52 buses
> 
> Notice for every year since 2003, when the large orders were starting to be filled, more buses came online than the net change, which means that there are some new buses that have not yet replaced an old bus, meaning some old buses remained on the fleet despite the new buses coming in. Exception is from 2004-2005, whereby there were 136 deliveries yet the fleet went down, meaning it was likely a 1:1 swap plus some more buses were retired without replacement.


Reposting the numbers is useless since I posted those very recently, but still proves my point, but you are oh-so-conveniently leaving out 2002 when the was a net change of -12, this is done on purpose to try to prop your argument up. The point is that in 2002 and 2005, *the swap was virtually 1:1, just like we told you but you are refusing to accept this clear and obvious fact.*




hkskyline said:


> However, looking at the 2005 and 2006 stats as well, it's very clear that when 249 new buses were delivered in 2005 yet the fleet went up by 52 buses only, that some of the old stuff remained
> Thus, your belief that it was a 1:1 swap and hence a 1:1 subtraction of the old buses' age totals from the average calculation is not only incompetent, it's reckless and wrong.
> 
> Here is a simple reconciliation to make the point come home even further, and how obvious a 1:1 swap is a logical error. Yet only a simple addition and subtraction can reveal it..


Sure, by 2006 over 1000 of the buses in the fleet are relatively new, so the oldest clonkers have already been disposed of, that's why they could afford to keep some of the buses and actually increase the fleet size and service levels, since those buses are not on their dying breath. However, 197 buses were still used for a 1:1 swap, and that is about 4:5s of the order used for 1:1. Thus, for an average, there is nothing incompetenet, reckless, or wrong in the average calculation through doing a 1:1, because the overwhelming majority does indeed have that happening, meaning the numbers would be within an acceptable margin of error if one does it that way. Your adding the vehicle years consequetively in the previous post is what is reckless and wrong and incompetent because that takes the existing old clonkers that have in fact been retired and keeps them in the average, giving you a figure that is way outside any acceptable margin of error, but you fail to recognize this obvious flaw in your calculations and logic, but that's because you know nothing about this subject.




hkskyline said:


> Simple subtraction. Don't understand how that is so difficult to comprehend. It's quite logical that a 1:1 swap is not even feasible or logical to begin with considering there was service expansion. Perhaps fantasy land has set in.


Over 1000 of the buses have already been replaced by this point, this means that the old buses, actually are not that old, and may also be rebuilds. The overwhelming majority of the 1000 new arrivals over the last few years have gone towards a 1:1 swap, this is very obvious from the math and in all practical contexts/perspectives and applications, that is exactly what is happening, the order coming in 2008 is further proof.



hkskyline said:


> In fact, how would you subtract the retired buses' total age from the average computation when we don't know which buses were retired and how old they were?


OK, you're so smart, why would the TTC retire anything other than the oldest in the fleet, as you are clearly implying that the TTC is retiring newer buses instead of old ones?
hno: You are hopeless.




hkskyline said:


> So if you want to interpret my numbers again, then it would be a conservative figure assuming all the old buses were kept. Removing all the old buses is definitely out of the question. That's not a valid assumption to begin with. Unless we get fleet information, we cannot make that calculation. However, what is very clear is that the actual true number is not likely to be near 5 at all as first claimed by *KGB*. That was what my calculation referred to - to make it very clear how illogical that estimate is.


Again, why would anything but the oldest buses be retired? You are clearly insane to be posing this question. We know which buses were retired, the oldest ones were retired because some at the time were past their lifespan! The point is that you keeping the old buses in your calculation is a blatantly flawed process and completely inaccurate. It is not only valid, it is OBVIOUS that the oldest buses get retired as the new ones arrive to replace them, that's just simple common sense and not an assumption. I agree that the number isn't necessarily 5, my number posted has consistently been 13 worst case, likely less, depends how old the remaining 500 are (13 years assumed 25-30 years old, those have likely been long since retired), something closer to 10 is more realistic, your figure of over 15 is absurd in the reality of the new deliveries in recent years.


hkskyline said:


> And I doubt you can come up with a better estimate given the data available either. I think this part we both agree.


No, we don't, you're assuming incorrectly that the TTC for some inexplicable reason would defy all logic and keep the oldest buses instead of not-so-old ones when doing replacements. That's fantasy land there, you must be high or something to have ideas that far out there and non-sensical. Get mental help.


hkskyline said:


> I suggest you look into the context of my calculations and see what they're trying to achieve. This isn't an exercise of oh my number is the one true number in the universe, but rather a response to a very crude estimate from *KGB* that doesn't make much sense and cannot be backed up by a reasonable calculation. It doesn't take rocket science math to detect these major errors.


The major error is your statement of over 15 years old. That isn't rocket science either when 2/3rds of the fleet is about 5 years old or less. You are out to lunch, your calculations don't have any realistic context, you're trying to achieve bullshit, and waste everyone's time with your overblown ego.



hkskyline said:


> We know at the end of 2004 the average age is 14 years from the article.


So how come you said the average was over 15 years as new arrivals come in? 



hkskyline said:


> End of 2004 : 21,028 - 13,140 = 7888 vehicle years
> 2005 vehicle years = 1491
> 2006 vehicle years = 1543
> Total @ 06 year-end = 10,922
> 2006 # Fleet = 1543
> Average = 7 years (this is likely the best case scenario)


This also the most realistic since the oldest are the ones that get replaced. This is also close enough to 5 years just like KGB said... DUH! Go away now, you're done.



hkskyline said:


> Let's do a sensitivity analysis as I doubt there are 438 30-year old buses in the fleet even at the end of 2004.


The TTC had some REALLY old buses throughout their fleet before the vehicle replacement program kicked in. The TTC has been putting this off for 10-15 years or so, at which point many buses were already well over 10 years old, but being screwed by the conservatives and the recession before then, they had to stretch the life of the fleet, meaning many MANY 25-30 year old buses in the fleet at the end of the 90s.



hkskyline said:


> Even in the likely best case scenario, the estimate is 7, and I think the likely actual figure is around 10 as in the 2nd calculation.


Like I kept saying the whole time, 13 is the worst case possible - that assumes all 500 or so old ones are 30 years old. That is unlikely. 10, sure, I'll believe that, my bone has been with the over 15 years average age uninformed comment you made.



hkskyline said:


> The point of all this is, you need to know exactly what you should take out (yes, you know this), but also how you should take that out (no, you don't know this, not after you claim it's a 1:1 swap).


You don't know how to trace the differences, that much is obvious. You don't understand cause and effect either, because if you take that into consideration, you really become the laughing stock. The purpose of the program is a 1:1 swap, service expansion if possible, but primarily a 1:1 swap first and foremost, and the overwhelming majority prior to 2006, during which service expansion actually started to kick in, the replacments were indeed going 1:1, only 23 out of several hundred were not in a 1:1 swap between 2001 and 2005, which means to argue otherwise is pointless and absurd. 23 is a negligible remainder given the volume, it's like not even 5% of the orders that came in over the 5-year time period in question. Give up, you're toast. What a crock.


----------



## Skybean

city_thing said:


> Can't you show us the cool things about the Subway, not just the depressing articles?


Honestly, there is nothing exciting about Toronto subways.


----------



## KGB

> However, looking at the 2005 and 2006 stats as well, it's very clear that when 249 new buses were delivered in 2005 yet the fleet went up by 52 buses only, that some of the old stuff remained.
> 
> Thus, your belief that it was a 1:1 swap and hence a 1:1 subtraction of the old buses' age totals from the average calculation is not only incompetent, it's reckless and wrong.



Holy shit...what part of plain english do you not understand?

Every new bus ordered is to replace a bus that is scheduled to be retired...it's that simple. 

Once all replacements have been made for every bus that is scheduled to be retired, they will have an extra 100 new buses on top of that.

This does not mean that scheduled retirement of every bus coincides with the excact moment a new one arrives. TRZ's 1:1 ratio is absolutely correct...it just doesn't mean it happens simultaineously in real time.

Need to hear it from the horses mouth? Here's a couple of paragraphs from The Coupler (TTC newsletter)



> 262 new buses arriving
> in 2005
> 
> The TTC has started accepting 262 new buses this year. The new, low-floor, 40-footers are arriving from Orion Bus Industries at a rate of six to eight per week. A total of 37 new vehicles were already operating out of Arrow Road Division at the beginning of February.
> 
> *Although the TTC is receiving more than 260 new buses, the Orion VIIs do not represent additional buses. They are replacement buses to take over from the nearly identical allotment of older models that are due – or overdue – for retirement.*





KGB


----------



## city_thing

hkskyline said:


> Feel free to add your photos in here as well. You're all welcome to do so.
> 
> Source : http://www.pbase.com/ssahmed/root


Thanks HK, you've made this thread worth visiting. I would post my own photos, but unfortunately I've never been to Toronto, so I don't have any.


----------



## cementationfurnace

city_thing said:


> ohhhhhhhhhhhhh my gaaaawd will you two quit yo bitchin'!
> 
> This thread is so dull as well! There's never any pictures or anything, only articles about how the system's underfunded. Can't you show us the cool things about the Subway, not just the depressing articles? You don't make this thread very exciting for outsiders, this thread might as well be in the Toronto section. Spice it up!


Personal testimonial time: I took to subway in Toronto on Friday. I arrived where I wanted to with a minimum of excitement but with great efficiency.


----------



## smokiboy

Can anyone tell me if there is thread dedicated to the Toronto airport transit link?
Thanks


----------



## Skybean

*Sick transit: TTC dirty, leaky, decaying
JACK LAKEY/TORONTO STAR*









A bucket placed inside the entrance to the Donlands subway station catches water leaking from the roof. Unresolved leaks are a common complaint.
*
'War zone' stations appall subway users
Mar 08, 2008 04:30 AM
Jack Lakey
Staff Reporter
*
Dingy, decaying, depressing, and definitely not The Better Way.

That's the verdict of readers about the condition of TTC stations, and the reason we're launching a full week of stories about it.

We recently asked for comments and examples of problems to do with cleanliness, maintenance and overall appearance of TTC stations, which touched a painful nerve with its customers.

About 200 calls and emails – the largest response we've ever had – poured in from riders appalled by grimy, litter-strewn floors, leaky roofs, stalled escalators, abominable washrooms, abandoned repairs and a dispiriting deterioration in the appearance of stations that conveys indifference and neglect.

Of the hundreds of thousands of people who use the system daily, most will end up in one of the 69 stations, often as their point of entry. The importance of a good first impression seems lost on the TTC, based on readers' responses.

Many recall when the stations were spotless and set the standard for North American public transit. People took pride in that reputation. Their memories may have grown rosier over time, but it makes the current state of affairs even harder for them to fathom.

"*Go to any station and you will see a thick black coating of grime on the platforms*," emailed Leo Gonzalez. "I still remember when those terrazzo floors used to shine, and I'm only in my 30s."

"Shabby is an understatement," wrote Jeff Harvey. "*The bus depot (at Eglinton station) is dark, dingy and dirty – a dungeon*. *Donlands station appears out of a war zone, with a leaky roof and ripped-open ceiling that's been like this for years. It is usually carpeted with litter*."

"The roof has leaked for a long time, but (lately) it has been an* indoor rainstorm*," wrote Sara Lipson of Kipling station. "The problem is so widespread that the temporary fixes do little to stop raindrops from falling on our heads."

"If I was a city health inspector, I would close down the washrooms," wrote Andrew Murphy. "*They are absolutely disgusting. At least I can stand up. I wouldn't want to sit on any toilet seat*."

One reader complained the inside bus platforms at Kipling are cleaned, "but not the outside ones. *Vomit from the weekend is still there Tuesday or Wednesday*."

Shawn McCabe, a TTC janitor, called to say "you're taking a shot at us, as usual, and it's a one-sided affair. But the public has to take some responsibility. Sometimes they sit on a bench next to a garbage can and just dump garbage on the floor. The public has to take pride in the stations."

A reader who asked not to be named said he worked as a TTC janitor for two summers, and "*there is a culture of apathy and laziness," among cleaning staff*.
*
"Sleeping, playing Frisbee across the tracks, two-hour-long smoke breaks, all of these are not uncommon. Heck, I've seen afternoon shift employees go watch movies at Cineplex in the middle of their shifts."* :bash:

Comments from readers were so vivid we totalled up some of the descriptions. "Filthy" came up 23 times and "disgusting" 15 times.

Dirt was the most frequently raised problem at 76 times, followed by 47 garbage complaints, 15 of which mentioned the need for more litter receptacles. There were 28 complaints about escalators, elevators and doors, 24 about station repairs, 25 about service and staff, 18 about leaky roofs and water, 14 about snow, 11 about free newspapers, eight about unfinished construction, eight about washrooms and seven about signage.

Councillor Adam Giambrone, who chairs the TTC, says the people who've complained about deteriorating conditions are wrong, and that the stations are cleaner than they were a couple of years ago, according to system audits.

"It takes a while to move people's perceptions," said Giambrone. "You can't reverse the trend overnight. People do see cleaner stations (but) they don't register it.

"People are coming in and saying they do see a difference because there used to be more paper on the tracks. Is it as clean as they'd like? No. But the fact is, things are getting better. It's measurable."

TTC managers are understandably touchy about the criticism.

"Sure, we know the washrooms are bad," says Gary Shortt, the TTC's superintendent of plant maintenance, stressing that a program to replace old plumbing fixtures with automated ones in the system's 10 washrooms is nearing completion. Customer complaints about washrooms have since dropped by 36 per cent, he said.

Janitorial staff is stretched thin, with a total of 248 cleaners to cover the entire system. The total number of dayshift cleaners during the week is just 38. To make matters worse, 2008 *TTC budget documents show a daily absentee rate of 12 per cent among cleaners.*

There's a lot more to cleaning a subway station than it might seem, said Shortt. For example, the black grime coating so many surfaces is a fine dust created when the brakes on trains are applied as they slow while pulling into stations.

Over time, brake dust builds up on everything and special equipment is needed to remove it in some areas, he said.

"People notice that the tiles on the wall across from the platform are covered with it, but we can't just send a janitor over there," with a brush and a bucket of soapy water said Shortt.

Cleaning staff are not allowed to work at track level due to the electrified third rail in the tracks, which means a flatbed rail car is needed, which can only be used late at night, when the subway has stopped running.

When a flatbed car is available, the cleaning must be done by maintenance workers instead of janitorial staff, which further complicates the job because the first priority for maintenance staff is usually track repairs, which must also be done when the subway isn't running, he said.

Despite the cash squeeze, the TTC has substantial plans for improvements, which will be the subject of a feature article next Saturday.

We're not doing this just to dump on the TTC or proffer outrageous quotes. We're hoping it will compel the TTC and the city councillors who oversee it to take the problem more seriously and move it much higher up on the list of priorities.

And we'll be asking each commissioner what they personally intend to do to fix the problem.

*
Voices*
_"I use the Finch terminus on a regular basis and it's filthy. You should take a look at the stairs leading from the main level to the bus terminal. The dust and dirt on these stairs is absolutely appalling and the ceiling has been open for months. It's a disgrace!"_


----------



## UD2

Top Gear said:


> Hahaha very funny


that is actually the case. A very large portion of the TTC's fleet is less than 5 years old. The other large portion have been in service since around 1996.


----------



## LordMandeep

its simple privatize the cleaning staff.

They are over paid and clearly not doing their job.


----------



## Electrify

^^ Especially if this part is true...



> A reader who asked not to be named said he worked as a TTC janitor for two summers, and "there is a culture of apathy and laziness," among cleaning staff.
> 
> "Sleeping, playing Frisbee across the tracks, two-hour-long smoke breaks, all of these are not uncommon. Heck, I've seen afternoon shift employees go watch movies at Cineplex in the middle of their shifts."


If this is the case, then no words can express how stupid the TTC and city management is. I'm all for unions, but if they don't do their jobs and shut down the system with an illegal strike, then the TTC should have gone all Reagan on their asses and fired the entire lot!


----------



## UD2

LordMandeep said:


> its simple privatize the cleaning staff.
> 
> They are over paid and clearly not doing their job.


privatization doesn't work. Take OPG as a grand example, the province is paying more now for the privatized sector of OPG than when it was still public.

You add in the profit factor that a private company needs to make, the ineffeciency of a public institution will seem cheap. 

There is a reason why no large institutions privatize or contract out their cleaning staff.

TTC hires students during he summer as cleaning crews, which explains the lack of work dedication. It's understandable because nobody really gives a damn about their summer job anyways. These guys are probably also underpaid for the job that they are asked to do, so simply economics will consititute poor porformance.


----------



## LordMandeep

However there is a problem of laziness. 

I was waiting for a bus at a a subway stop and a full grown man,took 15 mins (taking breaks and such) to pick up 3 garbage bags and to put new ones...

Clearly the problem is that they are not doing the work and prehaps scarring some of them with outsourcing could work.


----------



## Vancouverite

The TTC should accelerate its plans to transition to an automated train control suite. Robots don't strike. During Vancouver's summer-long transit strike in 2001 SkyTrain kept running while the buses were ground to a halt. As an aside, the 2001 nat'l census occurred during the strike and this utterly skewed Vancouver's transit stats for half a decade.


----------



## lena5538

toronto is a city of s tudents.. i think that they should improve the railway!


----------



## urbanfan89

Vancouverite said:


> The TTC should accelerate its plans to transition to an automated train control suite. Robots don't strike. During Vancouver's summer-long transit strike in 2001 SkyTrain kept running while the buses were ground to a halt. As an aside, the 2001 nat'l census occurred during the strike and this utterly skewed Vancouver's transit stats for half a decade.


Not really: even if the trains are ATC you can still have an operator who just sits there opening and closing doors. That's the way in many cities.


----------



## deasine

Vancouverite said:


> The TTC should accelerate its plans to transition to an automated train control suite. Robots don't strike. During Vancouver's summer-long transit strike in 2001 SkyTrain kept running while the buses were ground to a halt. As an aside, the 2001 nat'l census occurred during the strike and this utterly skewed Vancouver's transit stats for half a decade.


SkyTrains would've continued running regardless of the bus strike. Remember, Coast Mountain Bus Company and SkyTrain are two complete divisions and unions, despite being under TransLink.

I don't think it's necessary for the TTC to be completely automated. Just partially like the Scarborough RT would be fine.


----------



## TRZ

Vancouverite said:


> The TTC should accelerate its plans to transition to an automated train control suite. Robots don't strike.


You still need staff to monitor the system. This is a task that can be carried out by management staff though (they don't strike either, unlike their underlings). However, if the stations are not manned, then the trains can't be accessed by passengers, since the stations would be locked. 

That said, the TTC is moving as fast as it can afford to without disrupting service on the Yonge Line. As for Bloor, I agree with you. As an aside, Sheppard is already fully equipped to handle automation, they just don't have demand for such a service.


----------



## FK

The TTC union is crap, their on strike every year I believe, just today our company was busy arranging pick/drops for employees that use TTC because their 100% certain that they will go on strike.

Its really getting _old_ now, seriously!


----------



## LordMandeep

The sad thing the people who will get hurt are the people who can only dream of having the services that the TTC employees get. 
Like when the Reporters ask the TTC people, won't this hurt people. They sort of indirectly say, so what??? 

A lot of people now work in places where they can be gone Tomorrow.


----------



## sumisu

unions... so 1800s.


----------



## TRZ

^^ Aren't unions a 1900s invention?



Anyway, from the globe and mail:

"Mr. Kinnear insists workers should not be forced to pay for the consequences of what he thinks is an unsafe workplace. Workplace Safety and Insurance Board data show 538 lost-time claims due to injury by TTC workers last year, *an average of one for every 17 employees.* 

By far, the most common causes were sprains, strains and tears, which accounted for 137 claims, followed by post-traumatic stress, and contusions, bruises and fractures. *Vehicle operators made 42 per cent of the claims*, compared with less than 6 per cent by mechanical and maintenance workers."


----------



## FK

They shouldn't be working there if its not safe for them, this is seriously more like joining the army but asking for monetary compensation after being hit by a mortar.


----------



## LordMandeep

Getting even 50% of your wage after your hurt is non-existent in many workplaces.


----------



## TRZ

FahadKhan said:


> They shouldn't be working there if its not safe for them, this is seriously more like joining the army but asking for monetary compensation after being hit by a mortar.


TTC doesn't employ basic training in the same way the army does though, they have a different training regiment, and taking physical punishment, AFAIK, is not part of that curriculum, although customer service skills are. This is the Toronto TRANSIT Commission, not the Toronto TACTICS Commission.

I think Kinnear is an idiot, but I do agree with the principle that workers be safe in the work they do. Operators have enough stress with the traffic they fight on a daily basis, excluding subway drivers, they don't need to be victimized by their patrons. This is not a job that warrants danger pay, but by that same token, they should be out of harm's way with such being the case. Programs to achieve such results are in progress, but they take time.


----------



## sumisu

if customer service is part of their training then it must be taught by a former soviet gulag prison guard.


----------



## kelw

TRZ said:


> I think Kinnear is an idiot, but I do agree with the principle that workers be safe in the work they do. Operators have enough stress with the traffic they fight on a daily basis, excluding subway drivers, they don't need to be victimized by their patrons. This is not a job that warrants danger pay, but by that same token, they should be out of harm's way with such being the case. Programs to achieve such results are in progress, but they take time.


Of course in an ideal world, workers shouldn't be victimized by patrons. But how is more pay going to fix that problem and how is that an excuse to go on strike? Honestly, every service-related job will involve stress and the occasional mean customer. It's just a fact of life for other workers like waiters and call centre agents.


----------



## Skybean

I was surprised to learn that the union members *DO NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR the ONTARIO HEALTH TAX.*

*From a 2007 article:*
_
"The decision by the high court, which did not give a reason for not hearing the case, puts Toronto taxpayers on the hook for $6 million a year.

TTC Chairman Adam Giambrone also said the cash-strapped city expects to pay $15 million in back pay to workers. He was disappointed by the ruling.

"Well $6 million is a lot of service and we would have much rather have invested it in more drivers and more buses out there on the street moving people," Giambrone told CTV's Paul Bliss.

When Premier Dalton McGuinty's Liberal government introduced the Ontario health premium on July 1, 2004, *the union said the TTC, not individual employees, should pay the health tax. *

Unionized employees will now receive a refund of between $500 and $700, money owed to them dating back to July 1, 2004, said Local 113 president *Bob Kinnear, who was excited by the legal victory*.
"_

Honesty, how could the city and the TTC be so weak. The arrogance of the TTC union is disgusting. These union members are getting benefits above and beyond what most private sector employees are getting for a comparable workload. With declining service, decrepit stations, a bankrupt city there is really no reason why they should be getting MORE benefits. hno:

Tax payers are ALREADY paying for their medical costs and days off! Their new demands are merely meant to torment riders.


----------



## Skybean

The TTC says it will threaten to employ a work to rule campaign where they will deliberately slow service. My question is... can the service be any worse? 
-------------
I saw a headline today in The Star that says 'TTC union considers slowdown of service.' Has anyone travelled the 'better' way lately? *You couldn't get any slower or more inefficient. *I have no sympathy for the workers. They want to strike because they only get 75% of their pay if they are off on disability, while *the rest of us have to contend with 60 to 70% (if we're lucky) when we are on disability.*
_Michael Quintin, Toronto_

I truly believe that TTC workers should be banned from striking. Take the words directly from their current ad campaign, "One million reasons to make a deal," should also equate to, "One million reasons not to go on strike." The fact is that * these workers chose to work for an industry that provides a service to the people of Toronto and should be held accountable to that*. We, as riders, really don't appreciate being held hostage during these negotiations.
_Crystal Gerichter, Toronto_

No, *I think TTC workers should be allowed to strike, as long as those of us who miss work and don't get paid for days off, are reimbursed by the TTC. Does the union provide "Riders Employment Insurance" for us customers?*
_Louise Amm, Toronto_

*TTC workers live in the Twilight Zone. Fifty-thousand-dollar salaries, benefits, pension plan -- what else do they want? We, low-income taxpayers are forking out their union paycheques every day.* I am a retail associate and get $10/hr plus commission. No benefits, no sick leave/nor sick days. No matter how many years we work, the 2-week vacation time never changes. I cannot afford a car, so during strike I will park at home in front of the TV. Will David Miller compensate me?
_Sam Butera, Toronto_

I do not condone violence under any circumstances, but having endured many "verbal assaults" by belligerent TTC employees for no good reason, it does not surprise me that there are people who retaliate. Many of them are certainly not afraid, and go out of their way to provoke confrontation. *Where is the compensation for riders that are traumatized and inconvenienced by these overpaid bullies? Not to mention the appalling service and filthy stations we have to put up with.*
_Jeff Lazare, Toronto_

*Two words: "Essential Service." *The union has done a very good job convincing me of the importance of the TTC. It is so important to the health and vitality of the city that it cannot be allowed to close for even one day. The wildcat and illegal strike of last year proved that.
_Simon Wookey, Toronto_

I have been taking the TTC since I was 3 and was carried on by my father. No one in my family has ever owned a car. I spend 20 hours a week on the TTC travelling to my 2 jobs (one full-time and one part-time)*. I have never seen a TTC operator being attacked or spat upon*: the worst I have seen is a self-identified veteran using every four letter word on a female TTC operator who refused to accept his small change. Perhaps we could get more information about this physical abuse. I would like to see statistics. I would think that TTC operators had a greater chance of injury 30 or 40 years ago when they were allowed to eject drunks and other troublemakers from their vehicles. The fear of lawsuits against the TTC has stopped this practice.
_May Uusberg, Toronto_

For thousands of Torontonians, the TTC isn't merely an alternative to their car or a convenient way to get around the city, but a real and absolute necessity. It is their only means of getting to work, school, doctor's appointments, etc. By taking that away, *the employees of the TTC jeopardize the financial, educational and social welfare of people who are likely already disadvantaged. When the average salary of a TTC working is $26 an hour, it's selfish, greedy and simply wrong for these people to strike* and make those less fortunate than them suffer.
_Lauren Ellis, Toronto_

*source:* http://www.thestar.com/comment/Speakout/article/404696


----------



## Electrify

> No, I think TTC workers should be allowed to strike, as long as those of us who miss work and don't get paid for days off, are reimbursed by the TTC. Does the union provide "Riders Employment Insurance" for us customers?
> Louise Amm, Toronto


I like this idea. Last the there was the illegal strike, the TTC reimbursed Metropass users for that day. I think if there is a strike, they should do the same: Only out of TTC employee pockets.


----------



## Ni3lS

wow. I like the subway of Toronto


----------



## TRZ

kelw said:


> Of course in an ideal world, workers shouldn't be victimized by patrons. But how is more pay going to fix that problem and how is that an excuse to go on strike? Honestly, every service-related job will involve stress and the occasional mean customer. It's just a fact of life for other workers like waiters and call centre agents.


I agree more pay isn't going to fix anything. The programs that I was referring to was stuff like barriers between operator and patron in surface vehicles. However, you can't brush aside the issues that threaten the safety of workers like you are suggesting by stating "life's harsh, deal with it". Doesn't work that way, and the law would actually agree with the union on that, so the TTC is in a difficult position on this because if they try to take it to court they'd lose, and they know this. I think the union is being a bunch of ingrates by not taking things like the barriers program into consideration as these talks proceed, but since the program has not reached the implementation stage yet, the TTC doesn't have much to show for it yet, and thus is at a handicap at the bargaining table.

Call center agents can't get physically assaulted by people on the other end of a phone line, btw.


----------



## kelw

TRZ said:


> I agree more pay isn't going to fix anything. The programs that I was referring to was stuff like barriers between operator and patron in surface vehicles. However, you can't brush aside the issues that threaten the safety of workers like you are suggesting by stating "life's harsh, deal with it". Doesn't work that way, and the law would actually agree with the union on that, so the TTC is in a difficult position on this because if they try to take it to court they'd lose, and they know this. I think the union is being a bunch of ingrates by not taking things like the barriers program into consideration as these talks proceed, but since the program has not reached the implementation stage yet, the TTC doesn't have much to show for it yet, and thus is at a handicap at the bargaining table.
> 
> Call center agents can't get physically assaulted by people on the other end of a phone line, btw.


I understand what you are saying. But I still think mean customers are just a fact of life in this and many other occupations, and there really is no way to change that. I find it hard to sympathize with the union's position, since they seem mainly interested in getting more pay.


----------



## TRZ

BYS2 said:


> seriously, and the it looks so cheap, why can't they make it nice like hk or japan subway system..


Depends which part of the Japan subway system you're talking about. Most of the Japan subway system looks about as poche as Toronto, both have some examples that are above par.

Commuter stations are another matter, they look better, but GO ticket counters aren't that cheap looking IMO.


----------



## KGB

> ttc is a piece of shit man... seriously, those collectors there should be making $8/hour max.. they're pretty much homeless people who dropped out of high school. if i ever get the chance, those collectors are all gonna get fired and thrown out on the streets.


Needless to say, I'd guess your odds of ever getting that chance is is...none.



KGB


----------



## Bartolo

BYS2 said:


> ttc is a piece of shit man... seriously, those collectors there should be making $8/hour max.. they're pretty much homeless people who dropped out of high school... seriously, and the it looks so cheap, why can't they make it nice like hk or japan subway system.. if they're gonna keep jacking up token prices every year, they should give us better facilities..
> 
> this is bs, if i ever get the chance, those collectors are all gonna get fired and thrown out on the streets.


ok, well $8 an hour is below minimum wage, which is $8.75, and you can't live off of $8.75 in Toronto. Plus they have to deal with assholes and all that, so id expect them to get paid pretty well. Plus a lot of them work a lot of OT. Sure they have a pretty decent job, not having to do much, but can still be stressful, hence the pay rate. And also the fact they are in a union


----------



## isaidso

TRZ said:


> You contradict yourself in that statement.
> 
> Like I told sumisu, it IS pronounced EglinGton. You cannot say that I - or anyone in my family actually, have poor language skills, all of us are at least tri-lingual and lived in different countries that don't speak english, but as a Toronto native since childhood, I have ALWAYS known the pronounciation of it to be EglinGton, and most people would agree. This is not some immigrant bullshit like you try to proclaim, you were right at the start of your post: some names are not pronounced phonetically.
> 
> No, it is just that your ass is backwards. This is not some sub-standard English horseshit. The TTC is being very smart (and avoiding ridicule by the locals) by making the effort to make sure they pronounce the name the same way as the locals in that area. The locals of each area would unquestionably know best, they've lived there, many must have grown up there, surely some have been there for a generation in most of these places. They know how to pronounce these names. These are not "immigrant retards" like you try to pass them off as. The TTC IS using the proper pronounciation. You need to realize that in every language, there are enough names that don't follow the rules to the letter. There is no conflicting message being sent by the TTC on this, the TTC has done their homework, and if anything, they will be helping set the record straight on the pronounciations because they got the proper pronounciations straight from the horse's mouth.
> 
> Frankly, it is the person that tries to pronounce it as EgliNton, phonetically, that looks like the foreigner. The natives pronounce it EglinGton.
> 
> That's a completely different topic (not the same thing at all, completely unrelated to pronounciation) and you are being absurd.


My ass is backwards? I understand your crude attempt at English, but that isn't proper English either. It doesn't mean anything. You are being rude, arrogant, and narrow minded. Perhaps, you should think this through systematically rather than resort to a knee-jerk response because you don't like the criticism. Just because the people around you can't say Eglinton correctly doesn't make it correct. If 20,000 non-English speakers move into your neighbourhood and start calling it Egli-ton and no one ever points out the error, how would they know if it's right? They probably aren't going to take it too lightly if someone tells them 20 years later that they have been saying it incorrectly the whole time. I am not saying your English skills are deficient, only that your mastery of the language isn't perfect. That is certainly the case if you say 'EglinGton'.

All of you are tri-lingual in your family? Well now it's starting to make sense that there are certain subtleties of the language that weren't mastered. This isn't immigrant bullshit, but a very obvious repurcussion from not having English as a mother tongue. With mass immigration in this country, it's only natural that huge swaths of the population say certain words wrong. I can assure you that residents of Toronto who have English as a mother tongue, and were schooled at reputable institutions certainly don't put a second 'G' in Eglinton.

It is you who are being absurd if you are too proud to acknowledge normal and understandable deficiencies in people's skills with a 2nd or 3rd language. This is a city and nation that uses cinema and theatre to mean the same thing. That, is a result of a huge population who's first language was not English whether that hurts your feelings or not.


----------



## TRZ

isaidso said:


> My ass is backwards?


Yes. Any other questions?


isaidso said:


> I understand your crude attempt at English, but that isn't proper English either. It doesn't mean anything.


Actually it does. Where is it written that names follow standard pronounciation rules? It isn't written anywhere, and it is a well-known realm where exceptions are accepted in pronouciation. As I told you before, it is not restricted to English. You could probably find examples in any language if you wanted to look. 
Examples in English, for example, would be Jesse, Isaac, Sean, among others. Examples in Japanese include 菅原 or　須藤, both have more than one reading despite being written the same, one of the two pronounciations deviate from what would "proper" pronounciations, and names are a common place of confusion in the language actually, because the rules don't always apply to names in this language.　　八幡 is another example that can cause confusion.


isaidso said:


> You are being rude, arrogant, and narrow minded.


Because I am the one who is open to the reality that names can be exception to standard pronounciation rules, I'm narrow-minded? :lol: Good one bud, got another there?


isaidso said:


> Perhaps, you should think this through systematically rather than resort to a knee-jerk response because you don't like the criticism.


I welcome criticism, but I ask that you back it up with something substantial, which you haven't and I have.


isaidso said:


> Just because the people around you can't say Eglinton correctly doesn't make it correct.


Just because the name doesn't follow the rules doesn't mean the rules must be imposed upon it, that's what I keep telling you but you are too narrow-minded to consider this reality.


isaidso said:


> If 20,000 non-English speakers move into your neighbourhood and start calling it Egli-ton and no one ever points out the error, how would they know if it's right? They probably aren't going to take it too lightly if someone tells them 20 years later that they have been saying it incorrectly the whole time. I am not saying your English skills are deficient, only that your mastery of the language isn't perfect. That is certainly the case if you say 'EglinGton'.
> 
> All of you are tri-lingual in your family? Well now it's starting to make sense that there are certain subtleties of the language that weren't mastered. This isn't immigrant bullshit, but a very obvious repurcussion from not having English as a mother tongue. With mass immigration in this country, it's only natural that huge swaths of the population say certain words wrong. I can assure you that residents of Toronto who have English as a mother tongue, and were schooled at reputable institutions certainly don't put a second 'G' in Eglinton.


Well, way to make yourself look stupid, English is my mother tongue. You can stop making assumptions now that you've learned that lesson the hard way. If people that have lived in a neighborhood for most of or all of their life, they know how to pronounce it. The TTC researched these, they got the pronounciation right, I've pointed this out how many times? Hey, look at Queen's Quay for the best example. Only the locals get that one right, huge swaths, quite possibly a majority, of the city mispronounces that one because, like Eglinton but worse, it doesn't follow the rules either! It isn't pronounced "Kwae" like you would insist it is by the very nature of your argument, it is pronounced "Kee" because it is an exception. Likewise, Eglinton is an exception. If you're too narrow-minded to accept that, that's your problem. Don't delude yourself into thinking that you're right though.



isaidso said:


> It is you who are being absurd if you are too proud to acknowledge normal and understandable deficiencies in people's skills with a 2nd or 3rd language. This is a city and nation that uses cinema and theatre to mean the same thing. That, is a result of a huge population who's first language was not English whether that hurts your feelings or not.


Don't worry about hurting my feelings bud, you're being schooled here by someone who's 1st language is English. Shows what you know.


----------



## kelw

_Toronto Star _Apr 21, 2008 04:30 AM 

*The Agreement*

*WAGES*

Tentative agreement gives 8,900 TTC workers a 3% wage increase in each year of a three-year deal, which will have them making $27.38 an hour in the first year. Under the old contract, operators made less than their Mississauga counterparts but a "GTA clause" ensures that, throughout the contract, they are the highest-paid in the region. 

*INJURY COMPENSATION*

A sticking point throughout negotiations, the union wanted workers hurt on the job to get a top-up to the 85 per cent provided under the Workplace Safety and Insurance Board. The new contract will give those workers 100% of their wages.

*BENEFITS*

Improvements to insurance, dental and other benefits.

*PREMIUMS*

Extra compensation for shift workers and skilled trades.

*NEW HIRES*

New TTC workers will retain the same pay and benefits as their long-term counterparts.

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/416592


----------



## KGB

> It is you who are being absurd if you are too proud to acknowledge normal and understandable deficiencies in people's skills with a 2nd or 3rd language. This is a city and nation that uses cinema and theatre to mean the same thing. That, is a result of a huge population who's first language was not English whether that hurts your feelings or not.


This theory of people with non-english first language not speaking "proper" english is futile, as some of the worse dialects I've ever heard...are ones from _England_ itself.

And then there's the fact that English is mostly just a bastardized derivative of French in the first place.

Does anybody really relate the street or the area (Yonge & Eg) to the Earl of Eglinton anyway? So it less a case of "right and wrong" than it is a case of general custom. The fact that an error in the official spelling that did indeed include the second g in the 1800's has obviously affected the "traditional" way of saying it in a historical sense. 

So I really think it's more of a Beach vs Beaches thing, rather than some empirical pronunciation thing. I love it when people get riled over such nit-picky things (and I do plenty of it, so I can't complain).




KGB


----------



## Electrify

BYS2 said:


> ttc is a piece of shit man... seriously, those collectors there should be making $8/hour max.. they're pretty much homeless people who dropped out of high school... seriously, and the it looks so cheap, why can't they make it nice like hk or japan subway system.. if they're gonna keep jacking up token prices every year, they should give us better facilities..
> 
> this is bs, if i ever get the chance, those collectors are all gonna get fired and thrown out on the streets.


As you have already been humiliated about the minimum wage comment, I would say starting pay at $15/hour would be more than generous.


----------



## KGB

> As you have already been humiliated about the minimum wage comment, I would say starting pay at $15/hour would be more than generous.


What...does that make you next in line. LOL

So, first tell me how you have evaluated what jobs are worth when you aren't qualified, and tell me how you would go about implementing this.




KGB


----------



## BYS2

Electrify said:


> As you have already been humiliated about the minimum wage comment, I would say starting pay at $15/hour would be more than generous.


i do believe those ttc workers should be paid below minimum wage.. most of the time they're just rude and not that helpful.. especial those damned token collectors who just sit on their asses and jack off the whole day... you say $15/hour would be more than generous, well guess what: ttc workers already get paid $27.83 per hour plus a 3% increase per year under the new deal.. $50/hour is not far off now if they keep striking every year or so...

seriously, those ttc collectors don't even have basic social etiquette.. they look like a bunch of crazy homeless dudes they just pulled off the streets and put them in uniforms...

plus, a few of the token collectors actually made over 100k/year which is completely ridiculous.. i don't care if they're pulling double OT and have 10 years experience, 100k+/year for sleeping in a chair is outrageous.. soon, i'm gonna find out that that crazy homeless "can-you-spare-some-change" lady at queen's park is making $200k/year


----------



## Electrify

BYS2 said:


> i do believe those ttc workers should be paid below minimum wage.. most of the time they're just rude and not that helpful.. especial those damned token collectors who just sit on their asses and jack off the whole day... you say $15/hour would be more than generous, well guess what: ttc workers already get paid $27.83 per hour plus a 3% increase per year under the new deal.. $50/hour is not far off now if they keep striking every year or so...
> 
> seriously, those ttc collectors don't even have basic social etiquette.. they look like a bunch of crazy homeless dudes they just pulled off the streets and put them in uniforms...
> 
> plus, a few of the token collectors actually made over 100k/year which is completely ridiculous.. i don't care if they're pulling double OT and have 10 years experience, 100k+/year for sleeping in a chair is outrageous.. soon, i'm gonna find out that that crazy homeless "can-you-spare-some-change" lady at queen's park is making $200k/year


I've seen nice token collectors and rude ones. But I won't discuss this any further cause I don't feel like feeding trolls today.

On a side note, does anyone know where I can get a full list of job opportunities at the TTC? The website just lists bus drivers and other specialized positions.


----------



## trainrover

BYS2 said:


> those ttc workers should be paid below minimum wage.. most of the time they're just rude and not that helpful..


You're being harsh and making me reckon that you're patronising in the way you relate to the *station masters*. Therefore, does this mean you yourself win negative $15 per negative hour, coz that's the only value worth fishing for from your pathetically snidy comments . . . I mean, how can you gauge their helpfulness if you yourself are too lazy to do your own flipping homework? As I pass by, I often blurt out "Get a map!" to twerps like you who appear to think nothing of harrassing *station masters* in your tedium-filled ways . . .

The TTC employs the most straightforward transport staff I've come to meet in life, I liked them. They were playful; their clever sarcasm's what I remember the most about them!


----------



## BYS2

trainrover said:


> You're being harsh and making me reckon that you're patronising in the way you relate to the *station masters*. Therefore, does this mean you yourself win negative $15 per negative hour, coz that's the only value worth fishing for from your pathetically snidy comments . . . I mean, how can you gauge their helpfulness if you yourself are too lazy to do your own flipping homework? As I pass by, I often blurt out "Get a map!" to twerps like you who appear to think nothing of harrassing *station masters* in your tedium-filled ways . . .
> 
> The TTC employs the most straightforward transport staff I've come to meet in life, I liked them. They were playful; their clever sarcasm's what I remember the most about them!


what's a station master... you mean those useless homeless people they hire at ttc? i think the ttc must be a new type of welfare for them...

and were your high when you said they were playful? cause seriously, i don't think that crazy lady at queen's park station who asks for change is playful.. nor have i experienced any 'clever sarcasm'..

i mean, if the ttc staff has any training at all, they should at least dress in a respectable manner and not look like they just came to work after rummaging through a few garbage cans..


----------



## Electrify

KGB said:


> What...does that make you next in line. LOL
> 
> So, first tell me how you have evaluated what jobs are worth when you aren't qualified, and tell me how you would go about implementing this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KGB


Well, many front end customer service clerks (ie: cashiers) do not make much more than minimum wage, so I don't see a problem lowering their pay a tad bit. Seeing as they work for a public service, I don't feel minimum wage is appropriate, but neither is $30 hour.

Besides, with annual wage increases, that $15/hour would be $30 soon enough.


----------



## KGB

> Well, many front end customer service clerks (ie: cashiers) do not make much more than minimum wage, so I don't see a problem lowering their pay a tad bit.


But you have no idea what the duties and responsibilities of a collector is, so how do make this _cashier_ comparison? Needless to say, it's absurd.

Wage parody for TTC collectors isn't determined by looking at what _cashiers_ make, it's done by looking at what other collectors for other transit agencies make. This is pretty simple stuff yea? 

And I was asking how you would actually implement this idea of yours...like exactly how are you going to either fire all the current collectors, or lower their wages legally with just cause? How are you going to get rid of the union...or prevent new ones from forming? How are you going to hire, train and maintain staff of any value even if you could, knowing the same job in every other transit system is paid way more?

What you are suggesting makes little sense...so I'm asking why even entertain it?




KGB


----------



## BYS2

KGB said:


> But you have no idea what the duties and responsibilities of a collector is, so how do make this _cashier_ comparison? Needless to say, it's absurd.
> 
> Wage parody for TTC collectors isn't determined by looking at what _cashiers_ make, it's done by looking at what other collectors for other transit agencies make. This is pretty simple stuff yea?
> 
> And I was asking how you would actually implement this idea of yours...like exactly how are you going to either fire all the current collectors, or lower their wages legally with just cause? How are you going to get rid of the union...or prevent new ones from forming? How are you going to hire, train and maintain staff of any value even if you could, knowing the same job in every other transit system is paid way more?
> 
> What you are suggesting makes little sense...so I'm asking why even entertain it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KGB


privatize it... wages will go down by at least a half.. ttc is currently money fat


----------



## LordMandeep

I agree with privatizing but imo service will go down though.
Sure the buses may be paved with gold, but it would be useless if they start cutting frequencies and the number of bus routes. Seeing buses come every 2-3 mins on Eglinton would be gone, see buses run every 10-15 mins in far flung suburbs will be gone. 

Hate the TTC all you want and I do as well, they provide high frequencies unlike any NA transit system apart from NY especially for buses.


----------



## Skybean

^^Not every route is frequent. The route that I would use most comes every 30 minutes normally; 20 minutes rush hour.

Just today I had another TTC driver stop at a bus stop and leave as I was walking / jogging to the bus stop (literally 5 steps away). Over the years the quality of service has worsened. I'm not sure if it's because of the attitude of new hires and the loss of older ones who have left, but this is how I feel about the state of transit in this city. Kinnear agrees that service is "substandard"... so why should everyone be getting a raise at almost 2x inflation? Is there no accountability?

I really don't see how $29.00/hr salaries + unmatched benefits (100% injury topup, no paying Ontario Health Premium) + perks (new shoe allowance, unlimited transit pass...) can be sustained without significant fare increases and increases in property taxes. As salaries are sticky upwards, passengers continually get shafted. Also, due to this GTA clause, if Mississauga increases pay by some absurd amount, say -- 5%, the TTC will automatically follow suit! There's just no way out of this death trap.


----------



## kelw

So Bob Kinnear, who was called an idiot by everyone in this thread, got pretty much everything he asked for. hno: The moral of the story seems to be that you can get paid ridiculously above your market worth if you have a union to hold the city hostage.


----------



## KGB

> Not every route is frequent. The route that I would use most comes every 30 minutes normally; 20 minutes rush hour.



That's unusually long for peak and non-peak frequency. In most cities, a route like that would have longer wait times, and most likely not exist period.




> I agree with privatizing but imo service will go down though.


So why would you agree with privatizing? There really is no up-side to privatizing.




> I really don't see how $29.00/hr salaries + unmatched benefits (100% injury topup, no paying Ontario Health Premium) + perks (new shoe allowance, unlimited transit pass...) can be sustained without significant fare increases and increases in property taxes.


Because the TTC can provide a most-effective product than anyone else, where the costs are the same or even higher.




> The moral of the story seems to be that you can get paid ridiculously above your market worth if you have a union to hold the city hostage.


But you are talking about market values...and you haven't looked at the market. They aren't being paid above market value. Don't expect anyone to take anything you say seriously if even the basics escape you.




KGB


----------



## Electrify

Skybean said:


> ^^Not every route is frequent. The route that I would use most comes every 30 minutes normally; 20 minutes rush hour.
> 
> Just today I had another TTC driver stop at a bus stop and leave as I was walking / jogging to the bus stop (literally 5 steps away). Over the years the quality of service has worsened. I'm not sure if it's because of the attitude of new hires and the loss of older ones who have left, but this is how I feel about the state of transit in this city. Kinnear agrees that service is "substandard"... so why should everyone be getting a raise at almost 2x inflation? Is there no accountability?
> 
> I really don't see how $29.00/hr salaries + unmatched benefits (100% injury topup, no paying Ontario Health Premium) + perks (new shoe allowance, unlimited transit pass...) can be sustained without significant fare increases and increases in property taxes. As salaries are sticky upwards, passengers continually get shafted. Also, due to this GTA clause, if Mississauga increases pay by some absurd amount, say -- 5%, the TTC will automatically follow suit! There's just no way out of this death trap.


What route do you take? That frequency sounds like what virtually all YRT routes run at, even through dense areas.

I think the only way out of this 'death trap' is to remove their right to strike, period. When most US cities were building highways through the inner city, Toronto was investing in transit. Because of this, transit really is an essential service, and the TTC's unions know that. Unless this right is removed, they will continue to demand above market wages (now the most paid transit workers in North America) regardless of how it will effect the TTC, economy, city, or passengers.

EDIT: Even Montreal, a city that has managed to have both transit and highways coexist in the inner city, requires some transit service during 'strikes.' So how can a city like Toronto, that only has two highways heading into downtown supporting a metro area population of 5 million, allow their transit workers to strike?


----------



## TRZ

It needs to be an essential service.


----------



## KGB

> I think the only way out of this 'death trap' is to remove their right to strike, period.


I agree with making it an essential service...this city can't afford to have transit shut down for the two days it would take to legislate them back to work.




> Unless this right is removed, they will continue to demand above market wages


Why do you keep spouting this "above market" nonsense...what are you...deaf (or worse). The TTC is paid less than Miss or Brampton transit workers, and they have a more difficult job, work harder and have better performance. It only makes sense that make at least the same (or even marginally more based on this latest contract). That's the "market" they are in.




> So how can a city like Toronto, that only has two highways heading into downtown supporting a metro area population of 5 million, allow their transit workers to strike?


Again...you're barking up the wrong tree...don't blame the city...blame the province (who's really responsible for most of the TTC's woes anyway)




KGB


----------



## Electrify

KGB said:


> Why do you keep spouting this "above market" nonsense...what are you...deaf (or worse). The TTC is paid less than Miss or Brampton transit workers, and they have a more difficult job, work harder and have better performance. It only makes sense that make at least the same (or even marginally more based on this latest contract). That's the "market" they are in.


I heard from a comments blog on a news site that they were the highest paid transit workers in North America now. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any official source confirming this, so I will retract this comment for the time time being. I, along with others, still feel that they generally overpaid and that this contract is much too generous.

Another way to take some steam out of the TTC would be to build more roadways into downtown. Right now many people take the TTC because it is the most convenient and fastest way into downtown, especially from the central corridor. If there was better access to downtown by vehicle, then there would be less need for the TTC.

Of course, this would create a social and economic nightmare. But it would be nice to see the TTC unions be put in their place.


----------



## KGB

> I, along with others, still feel that they generally overpaid and that this contract is much too generous.



Based on what...your expertise on labour issues, union contract negotiations and wage parody? I don't think so....you're just some average person who has uninformed, emotionally motivated opinions about high profile issues like this. 

We have to deal with reality here...not your vision of how things should be. I think the price of bananas is too high, but what does that have to do with the reality of what the price of bananas are?




> Another way to take some steam out of the TTC would be to build more roadways into downtown.
> 
> Of course, this would create a social and economic nightmare. But it would be nice to see the TTC unions be put in their place.


See what I mean..._cut our nose off to spite our face_ ideas is not useful in any way in a discussion about the topic.




KGB


----------



## trainrover

BYS2 said:


> what's a station master...


It, being a profession that the likes of immature passengers like yerself there could never necessarily dream of, pegs onto what I commented earlier . . . better hold onta yer wits shouldja take to snarkiness, twit....





BYS2 said:


> those useless


The uselessness lies solely with your aimless whining . . . my neighbour's even lousy with her pointless, fake crying...





BYS2 said:


> you said they were playful?


Never imagined a robot being capable of second guessing . . . somebody balked at programming you _just right_.


----------



## trainrover

(wrong thread)


----------



## Skybean

*TTC spending millions on consultants

System needs to resist new technologies, commission member says
BY DAVID NICKLE
April 22, 2008 04:48 PM*

The Toronto Transit Commission needs to manage its information technology resources better, reign in its use of outside consultants and work more closely with the city, according to a report from Toronto's auditor general.

*The report into the TTC's IT operations criticized the commission's use of outdated technology and its reliance on consultants and contractors to deal with its ongoing information technology needs.
*
Auditor General Jeff Griffiths found that the* TTC had spent a total of $40 million on consultants over the past five years, and is currently over budget on 13 projects.*

Griffiths urged that both the TTC and the Toronto Police Service work more closely with the city's own information technology division, and start using a city financial and information system known as SAP.

The report, which went before Toronto's Audit Committee Tuesday, April 22, was a source of frustration for politicians and TTC officials alike.

Toronto Transit Commission General Secretary Vince Rodo maintained the commission had looked at the cost of engaging in wholesale upgrades of information technology software and hardware - for managing everything from payroll to bus and train scheduling - but determined it to be actually more costly than hiring consultants to come in and refine existing equipment.

"From our perspective we haven't seen a remarkable business case on any SAP program, that if you spend $25 or $30 million that you get savings to justify the expenditure," he said. "And we think that implementing SAP is in the order of something like $35 million. It's big, it's not inexpensive and it's not easy."

Ward 2 (Etobicoke North) Councillor Rob Ford was less forgiving.

*"If this was the private sector these people would be out of business," he said. "You can't go out and spend $40 million on consultants for five years and you can't be over budget on 13 projects by $120 million. *You go out there and say we've got to have a fare increase because we need more money? I won't be very sympathetic."

Ward 8 (York West) Councillor Anthony Perruzza, who is also a TTC commissioner, took a more philosophical approach - arguing that the TTC and the city needed to be "resistant" to technological improvement.

"We need to resist as much as possible all of these new technologies and the people coming and trying to sell them to us," said Perruzza. "That is the reality - that we're going to pay hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars because of our addiction to technology."

*source:* http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/04/22/166502.aspx
---------------------------------

TTC management is just a disaster.


----------



## TheCat

KGB said:


> And then there's the fact that English is mostly just a bastardized derivative of French in the first place.


Incorrect  While English has absorbed many words of French origin at certain points in history, it is not even in the same group of languages as French.


----------



## Taller Better

BYS2 said:


> ttc is a piece of shit man... seriously, those collectors there should be making $8/hour max.. they're pretty much homeless people who dropped out of high school... seriously, and the it looks so cheap, why can't they make it nice like hk or japan subway system.. if they're gonna keep jacking up token prices every year, they should give us better facilities..
> 
> this is bs, if i ever get the chance, those collectors are all gonna get fired and thrown out on the streets.


oooooooooooh they are shakn' in their boots now, I'll bet. :lol:


----------



## TRZ

KGB said:


> Wage parody for TTC collectors isn't determined by looking at ....
> 
> KGB





KGB said:


> your expertise on labour issues, union contract negotiations and wage parody? I don't think so....
> 
> KGB


You mean wage _parity_, right?


----------



## KGB

> You mean wage parity, right?



Yea...whatever. If you are going to waste a post every time I make a typo, this thread will be many pages long. As long as you know what I mean...why worry so much about it. Hmmm....thinking about it, perhaps I was actually making a Freudian slip?





> Incorrect While English has absorbed many words of French origin at certain points in history, it is not even in the same group of languages as French.


Yea...english is considered Germanic, and French a Romance language...big deal. The fact remains that half of the English vocabulary is derived from French, and until nearly the 15th century, the official language of law, government and the upper classes....was *FRENCH*.

But at any rate, the point behind what i was trying to get across, is that Toronto is a city of mostly immigrants of highly varied backgrounds, and therefore proper pronunciation of english words is just not high on the priority list. 


KGB


----------



## TRZ

KGB said:


> Yea...whatever. If you are going to waste a post every time I make a typo, this thread will be many pages long. As long as you know what I mean...why worry so much about it. Hmmm....thinking about it, perhaps I was actually making a Freudian slip?
> 
> KGB


I only brought this one up because you made the exact same typo twice in separate posts on different days (so it isn't exactly a typo at that point), but what I found particularly funny was the very concept of "wage parody", given the farce that Bob Kinnear is, that's actually not far from the truth.


----------



## Electrify

KGB said:


> Based on what...your expertise on labour issues, union contract negotiations and wage parody? I don't think so....you're just some average person who has uninformed, emotionally motivated opinions about high profile issues like this.


http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...ne-says-mississauga-transit-union-leader.aspx
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080422.TTC22/TPStory/TPNational/Ontario/
http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/416867

Yup, just average joes who dislike this contract. hno:


----------



## KGB

> I only brought this one up because you made the exact same typo twice in separate posts on different days (so it isn't exactly a typo at that point)


I generally do...I type very fast, and because it's just a chat forum, don't care about it as long as the message is getting through (normally quite fastidious about details for more important things). A common one of mine is always typing _it's_, whether it's _its_ or _it's_. Or perhaps I have some kind of dyslexia? At any rate, I know the correct spelling, and know how to use spell-check...just don't give a shit. Didn't figure anybody else did either.






> Yup, just average joes who dislike this contract



My point is, you don't know enough about the issue to really have an opinion one way or the other.


----------



## isaidso

TRZ said:


> Don't worry about hurting my feelings bud, you're being schooled here by someone who's 1st language is English. Shows what you know.


I didn't bother reading past your first comment. It was obvious that the contents would continue with the predictable dribble and I've wasted enough time trying to convey very basic truisms to you. 

I'm not your bud and I'm not worried one little iota about hurting the feelings of a troglodyte. You know what you know and to expect anything beyond that is foolhardy. The level of intellect of your peers is probably good validation for you. It's not my place to point out that they are cave people. You should continue to spend as much time as possible with them.

Refrain from making any contact of ANY kind with me. I have as much interest in that as talking to a blade of grass. Consider yourself BLOCKED. I'll make it easy for you to understand: you're on the IGNORE list.

You're really really smaRt. There. You're world has been restored.


----------



## Tuscani01

*Surprise Toronto Transit Strike!*

All subways, streetcars and buses will be out of service as of midnight, (10 minutes from now) and thousands of people will be stranded downtown as clubs begin to empty and people find themselves waiting for transit that wont be there.



> TTC workers reject contract; strike to begin at midnight
> 
> UNNATI GANDHI AND JEFF GRAY
> 
> Globe and Mail Update
> 
> April 25, 2008 at 11:22 PM EDT
> 
> TORONTO — The TTC's largest union has voted not to ratify a tentative agreement reached with management last weekend and the *transit system will grind to a halt at midnight.
> *
> Sixty-five per cent of TTC union members voted to reject the tentative agreement, which required a 50-per-cent plus one vote to pass. Bob Kinnear, the union president, said he had no choice but to call an immediate strike for the safety of his members.
> 
> “We have assessed the situation and decided that we will not expose our members to the dangers of assaults from angry and irrational members of the public,” Mr. Kinnear said in a statement. “We have a legal responsibility to protect the safety of our members and so does the TTC.”
> 
> The union executive will meet on Saturday morning to determine its next step.
> Related Articles
> 
> Andrew Specht, a TTC passenger who was waiting for a streetcar at the corner of Queen Street and Spadina Ave late last night, said he hopes the Ontario government will step in and order workers back to work.
> 
> “This is the perfect time for [Premier] Dalton McGuinty to step in and make it an essential service,” he said.
> 
> “More people have contact on a daily basis with the TTC than hospitals and police and they're an essential service. We were already waiting on tenterhooks ... right down to the 11th hour ... and now they say they're going to strike? At this point, I have no sympathy for them.”
> 
> Mr. McGuinty floated the idea of short-circuiting the union's right to strike by declaring transit an essential service last week.
> 
> Student Dave Rider from Barrie, Ont., wrote in to The Globe upon hearing news of the strike late Friday night. “Thank you TTC, for going on strike during my exams. You're going to make commuting to my final exams so much fun.”
> 
> Last week's eleventh-hour deal came just in time to avert a strike that would have paralyzed the city on Monday morning.
> 
> But after a meeting held for union members to discuss the deal Wednesday night, reports of discontent among union executive board members and the transit agency's maintenance workers began to circulate.
> 
> Last night's vote confirmed that.
> 
> Text of the agreement and all of its details have not been made public.
> 
> The deal, which critics of Mayor David Miller have criticized as being too generous, offers TTC workers improved health benefits and three years of 3-per-cent annual wage increases, that will make TTC drivers the best paid in the Greater Toronto Area.
> 
> But in a clause seized on by critics, the deal also offers bus drivers an additional raise in December of 2009 if their pay falls behind that of other Toronto-area drivers, something the union says it deserves because of the demands of driving a bus or a streetcar in the city.
> 
> Tight votes by the union are nothing new.
> 
> Just 60 per cent of voting union members approved the last contract in 2005, with two-thirds casting ballots, the union said at the time.
> 
> In 1991, 58 per cent of voting union members turned down a contract negotiated by their leaders and went out on strike.
> 
> With a report from Melissa Whetstone
> 
> Recommend this article? 23 votes


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## Electrify

I can't wait to see the mess of drunk driving accidents, gas price increases, cab rides to the suburbs, assaults on unknowing people waiting for a transit bus that will never show up, etc.

All this strike will do is:

- have the public lose all respect and support for the TTC union
- remove the TTC's right to strike
- push forward highway proposals through the inner city
- chase more people and business out of the city and into the suburbs... or maybe Alberta

On the plus side, this may cause Mr. Miller to resign as mayor.


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## urbanfan89

There are highway proposals in the inner city?


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## Electrify

urbanfan89 said:


> There are highway proposals in the inner city?


There were. Toronto was supposed to look like this once upon a time:










Instead, we focused on improving transit and frequency to world class levels, even on the outskirts of the city. As car prices increased and now as gas goes to $1.20 per litre (will be $1.30 by dawn I'm willing to bet) this plan ended up having excellent foresight.

Unfortunately, this asinine and irresponsible move is only going to push more people to cars, regardless of cost or impact on the environment. These people can also vote, and this may put pressure to in fact build highways over transit.


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## vancouverite/to'er

Nay, further I say! Why don't we just scrap Eglinton altogether, tunnel under Lake Simcoe and retrofit a couple Gondolas to create a northern Loop at Blue Mountain Resort!!


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## Electrify

DENTROBATE54 said:


> This is precisely the slippery slope we're opening ourselves up to by extending the YUS line any further north than York University. There'll always be these: "why not extend it just a little bit further" remarks until we have a line extending upto Lake Simcoe. :nuts: Sometimes we must just allow buses to take over.


Well, back in the early 1900s you could take a streetcar from Lake Ontario to Lake Simcoe... 

Yes, but there are several new high density condos being developed Jane north of Highway 7. And as stated, there is both Canada's Wonderland and Vaughan Mills Mall (not to mention the Village of Maple, which is currently the closest thing Vaughan has to a "downtown").

From a "transportation" network standpoint, the extension to Vaughan is long overdue. The Spadina Expressway was to connect the 407 to the Gardiner. However the government chose to scrap the expressway in favour of the subway. Therefore, for this "transportation" corridor to be complete, the subway must go at least as far as the 407... for better or worse.


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## yin_yang

Homer J. Simpson said:


> ^How about we build a popsicle stick skyscraper while we are at it?
> 
> Any money and time being spend on subways should be done to best serve the most amount of people. By building in York Region, this objective would not be achieved.


as the world turns :runaway:


----------



## DENTROBATE54

Electrify said:


> Well, back in the early 1900s you could take a streetcar from Lake Ontario to Lake Simcoe...
> 
> Yes, but there are several new high density condos being developed Jane north of Highway 7. And as stated, there is both Canada's Wonderland and Vaughan Mills Mall (not to mention the Village of Maple, which is currently the closest thing Vaughan has to a "downtown").
> 
> From a "transportation" network standpoint, the extension to Vaughan is long overdue. The Spadina Expressway was to connect the 407 to the Gardiner. However the government chose to scrap the expressway in favour of the subway. *Therefore, for this "transportation" corridor to be complete, the subway must go at least as far as the 407... for better or worse*.


But why can't BRT feeders not terminate at Steeles West Stn (you know, that place where they intend to build a whopping *30 bus bays*, to serve what I don't know-- there's Keele, Jane, York U and Steeles routes but what else :?)? Steeles is only a half-kilometre south of Jane/407 and there's nothing significant in-between those points that'd slow traffic/commutes down. That's why the Vaughan part of the extension is wasteful, it's serving nothing. The YRT 360 bus that currently feeds into Yorkdale Stn, could now route into Steeles West instead, creating the same accessibility for VMM, CWL and the Vlg of Maple without wasting billions more extending the YUS line upto them.

And VCC? Give me a break! hno: The fracking VIVA bus runs half-empty all-day and it routes in the direct path of this future subway corridor. Jane/Interchange Way rivals Kipling/7 as the most underused stop. Yeah, a real winner there. :| The subway to _Hilton Inn/IKEA/FutureShop/Walmart Supercentre and Colossus Theatre_ is sickening when one considers there's as of now still no subway to the airport, or across the CBD/downtown Toronto core, or to several postsecondary campuses around the city or one satisfactorily serving the inner-416 suburbs (Scarborough, Etobicoke, North York). 

If the Sheppard "stubway" fiasco has taught us anything, it's that a cluster of condominums and/or big-box stores (both car-oriented forms of development) will never generate a consistent, high-yielding subway ridership base. Only building in preexisting built-up areas can!! :doh:


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## TRZ

DENTROBATE54 said:


> But why can't BRT feeders not terminate at Steeles West Stn (you know, that place where they intend to build a whopping *30 bus bays*, to serve what I don't know-- there's Keele, Jane, York U and Steeles routes but what else :?)?


I believe that is 37 bus bays. From what I read in the EA, there's 3 terminals, one of the terminals is for TTC, one for 905 systems, and one for GO Transit buses.


DENTROBATE54 said:


> Steeles is only a half-kilometre south of Jane/407 and there's nothing significant in-between those points that'd slow traffic/commutes down. That's why the Vaughan part of the extension is wasteful, it's serving nothing.


Nothing but parking spots. The Steeles terminal is going to count as the new York U service point because York U wants buses removed from the commons; that's why the TTC station there is pedestrian access only, no bus routes no nothing to connect to there. This idea that the transitway station will become the connection point between the 407 corridor and the subway then become muddled since the 407 corridor is used heavily by the York U crowd, so to force a transfer at the 407 onto the subway is rather retarded. I actually don't think the transitway should connect to this station at all; I'd say don't build the station there and build a small detour to Steeles West instead. I reject the idea of building a station in the middle of nowhere purely for parking expansion.


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## DENTROBATE54

^^ Wow, we're actually seeing eye-to-eye on an issue for once!  IMO, the Vaughan extension makes no practical sense when you break it down. Steeles West/NW Gt to Jane/407 is 0.8 miles. The 407 to VCC is only a mere 0.4 - 0.5 miles. So we're attributing BD levels of proximity to a region which boasts as signs of modernity and urbanization-- a cemetary, an apple orchard, a heritage museum/estate, industrial sprawl, rolling meadows and car-oriented big-box chains? I know...

:wtf:

Before Vaughan even thinks it's ready for a bonafide subway line, it needs to find a way to fill VIVA Orange buses. I'm never in lack of multiple seating options when riding them. The fact that even during rush hour these buses are undercapacity, in spite of the influx of Brampton and Woodbridge customers, tells me the "high" demand for metro in this area is nothing but a platitude. I also think the whole fare zone tariff at Steeles West Stn will further discourage commuters from even wanting to ride this extension. They'll opt instead to ride the bus in, knowing they'll receive a usable transfer POP.


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## TRZ

DENTROBATE54 said:


> I also think the whole fare zone tariff at Steeles West Stn will further discourage commuters from even wanting to ride this extension.


That zone boundary isn't going to apply on the subway, I can't imagine how they'd design it in to the infrastructure in any practical manner.


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## hkskyline

*TTC to curb train delays with help of paramedics
Pilot project will have EMS worker posted at Bloor subway to reach ill passengers faster *
27 August 2008
The Toronto Star

The TTC is posting paramedics at the system's busiest subway station to try to reduce train delays caused by sick passengers.

Rider illness is the top cause of rush-hour delays, accounting for more than 49 hours of lost service time last year.

So this week, the TTC and Toronto EMS launched a 19-week pilot project in which a paramedic and TTC supervisor are posted at the Bloor subway station, with the option to travel quickly to nearby stops, in hopes of shaving a couple of minutes off the usual 8- to 10-minute ambulance response time.

Ambulances will still be called in each case, but they may be redeployed if the on-site paramedic is able to handle the problem alone without assistance.

As subway ridership has grown, so have illness-related delays, TTC chair Adam Giambrone told a news conference yesterday.

"None of this is the fault of the individuals who are experiencing these, of course. No one chooses to have a medical emergency," he said.

"At the end of the day, though, these medical emergencies end up causing a large number of delays - in total 2,983 minutes of delays (annually)," Giambrone said.

"If you think of the Yonge line, which carries 35,000 people between 7: 45 and 8: 45 a.m., running a train every two minutes, an eight-minute delay is the equivalent of four trains passing by, each train carrying somewhere between 1,300 and 1,400 people."

The TTC will cover the $50,000 cost of the pilot project. If it proves effective, the service is likely to be incorporated into next year's operating budget.

EMS responded to 4,182 calls at TTC stations and on trains last year, according to EMS deputy chief Mike Neill. Of those, 1,241 incidents were because riders were sick or injured. Each means an average two-minute delay to service.

Most calls are not life-threatening; they typically range from simply feeling sick to experiencing chest pain, Neill said.

It's hoped that as passengers become aware paramedics are on hand at the busy transfer station, they'll leave the train there and seek assistance before they collapse or get sicker somewhere down the subway line, he said.

The on-site paramedics are equipped with a 14-kilogram "jump pack" that includes a cardiac monitor, blood pressure equipment, cardiac drugs and painkillers, and an oxygen canister, said Wayde Lansing, one of three paramedics assigned to subway duty.

"I have everything we would need to deliver advanced life-support care in an emergency situation," he said.

Cities around the world place paramedics on their subways, said TTC chief general manager Gary Webster.

"Over the years we've always been monitoring our performance on the subway. ... We've done a good job in the last 10 years of addressing all the equipment problems," he said.

"The customers are more of the issue. What can we do? You want to minimize the number of times it happens, but when it happens you want to minimize the impact."

Subway delays increased by 84 hours last year over 2006, but those blamed on mechanical and maintenance issues declined about 2 per cent. Some 40 per cent more delays were caused by passengers who were either ill or disorderly.


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## hkskyline

*Metropass users will lose free parking *
August 28, 2008
Tess Kalinowski
Toronto Star

Metropass users accustomed to driving to the subway in the morning may need to reconsider their commute next year when they will no longer be able to park free in TTC lots.

Elected transit commissioners voted last night to charge pass holders between $2 and $6 a day to park in any of the TTC's 16 car lots, starting in the first quarter of 2009.

The changes won't alter the free parking offered at many lots after 3 p.m. daily and on weekends and holidays.

The fees will go ahead even though some commissioners wanted the TTC to wait and study other pricing structures such as a premium Metropass that would cover parking. It was also suggested that parking rates penalize suburban riders who have less bus service to subway stations.

But TTC chair Adam Giambrone said it's time to be pragmatic about parking fees.

"It's not appropriate for the average TTC rider to be subsidizing between 10 and 15 cents out of their fare for parking lots. We will still be providing a subsidy to each rider who uses these spots. Even with these charges, we will be bringing in (only) 50 per cent of the cost of operating these parking lots," he said.

The TTC spends $6.3 million a year to operate its parking lots, including payment to the Toronto Parking Authority, which operates them; lease payments to Hydro One and property taxes. But the transit authority recovers only $2.7 million in fees.

The parking lots run at 97 per cent capacity but end up costing the TTC money because four out of five spots are taken up by Metropass holders who don't pay for them.

The average parking fee under the new plan will be about $3 to $4 a day for Metropass holders but could run as high as $6 at suburban stations such as Finch. It's expected the fees will raise between $2.9 million and $3.9 million a year – money that will be pumped into more bus service to get TTC riders to the subway.

A report before the commission suggests the parking charges could cost the TTC between $2.5 million and $3.5 million in lost fares.

But Giambrone said the transit service will be ahead in the long run.

"We know we can attract more riders with increased bus and streetcar service. We cannot provide enough parking to grow our ridership to where we want to be," he said.

A Metropass costs $109 a month for an adult and $91.25 for a senior, with reductions for annual purchases.


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## hkskyline

*Mingling intimately or standing on subway like cattle? *
1 September 2008
The Globe and Mail

Transit overlords in New York – revealing the universal and sometimes endearing transit-engineer impulse to treat people like freight – are preparing to test a low-tech way to jam more passengers onto packed rush-hour subway trains: Lose the seats.

According to local media reports, New York plans to test a subway train with flip-up seats in four of its 10 cars. The seats would be locked upright in rush hour, allowing 18 per cent more passengers to fit inside, mingling rather intimately.

With ridership rising, the move is meant to allow a boost to the system's capacity that could only otherwise be achieved by the installation of new multimillion-dollar signalling systems – the kind earmarked for Toronto's packed Yonge subway line in coming years – which allow for computer-controlled trains to be run more closely together than now possible.

Imagine, in the meantime, the boost to the efficiency of the increasingly crowded TTC subway if just a couple of cars on each six-car train had seats that disappeared in rush hour, creating a standing-room-only ride for some, but leaving the rest of the train for those who really need to sit down. If you are going to be standing anyway, it might be more tolerable without all of those seats, and the lucky people sitting in them, just getting in your way.

The Toronto Transit Commission has proven surprisingly resistant to suggestions it should stopping coddling passengers who insist on sitting down. In 2006, its commissioners overrode pleas from the agency's engineers to install “perimeter seating” in the next generation of subway cars. This is a layout common in Europe and Asia that would allow for more stand-up types and easier movement with seats set along each wall, instead of the TTC's current, obstructive “conversation nook” arrangement.

Then-TTC-chair Howard Moscoe derided the idea, saying it would turn the city's subway trains into “cattle cars.”

It seems obvious that public transit, in a growing city that is supposed to be getting much denser and less car-dependent in the coming years, is simply going to get more and more crowded. We are going to have to get over some of our hang-ups about personal space, as have subway riders in other major cities. Think of it as a tax break: The more people you cram into an existing subway, the less governments have to spend on new public transit.

While he wouldn't endorse New York's seat-lockup idea, Adam Giambrone, the city councillor who chairs the TTC, did point out that when the new subway cars – called Toronto Rockets – start arriving at the end of next year, they will be equipped with seats that fold up when they are not being used. (The new subway cars will also allow passenger to walk from car to car while the train is moving, which the TTC says will ease crowding.)

It is hard to imagine the TTC ever having the gall to bolt the seats up in rush hour as New York is proposing. Instead, Toronto's approach, Mr. Giambrone said, will preserve an element of customer choice, allowing the pressure of group behaviour to govern who sits and who stands.

Mr. Giambrone said that passengers on other systems with similar flip-up seats that he has ridden, such as in Paris, intuitively understand that when the subway car is really crowded, it is time to stand. Unless, of course, you are in one of those categories of passengers that really needs a seat.

“People are really good about it,” Mr. Giambrone said. “People get it.”

Dr. Gridlock appears Mondays.


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## hkskyline

*When's the next subway train? Look up
TTC tries out signs offering real-time info*
5 September 2008
The Toronto Star

It's one more sign that the TTC is getting a foothold in the information age.

Riders at the Dundas station can now tell how long they'll wait for a train by checking the screens on the northbound and southbound platforms. The next-train-arrival information is part of a three-month pilot project experimenting to see what kind of information riders want before the notifications appear in all 69 subway stations - sometime by the end of 2009.

TTC officials acknowledge that next-train information isn't that valuable during rush hour, when trains run about every two minutes. But the system is a way to notify riders of delays, so they can plan their time better. It also reminds riders that when the system is packed at rush hour, the next train is only two minutes down the tunnel.

"If that prevents somebody from jamming in a door, which then causes an eight-minute delay, you begin to think about it being a pretty good investment," said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

Transit Control already knows where all the trains are in the tunnels, Giambrone said. "This is about taking the information we have already and giving it out to the public. This is really about customer service enhancement today."

Unlike cities with more extensive systems, where trains moving through a line may have more than one destination and may run less frequently, Toronto probably doesn't need sophisticated notifications, acknowledged TTC chief general manager Gary Webster.

"If it were more expensive, you wouldn't do it," he admitted. But the $330,000 price tag is small compared with the $8 million bus-arrival notification system that will roll out on the Harbourfront line and in Spadina station in November. It will provide surface riders with real-time information on the next bus or streetcar's arrival, using LED technology similar to that being used on York Region's popular VIVA system.


----------



## Skybean

Another embarrassment for the mismanaged TTC. Total chaos ensued as no one knew what was going on. No crowd management, no disaster planning whatsoever. 

*Toronto subway delay keeps getting longer

JOSH WINGROVE

Globe and Mail Update

September 25, 2008 at 11:31 PM EDT

TORONTO *— TTC riders stranded by a power outage along the city's busiest subway track Thursday night could again face delays Friday morning, as crews worked overnight in a frantic attempt to restore service.

Trains on the Yonge line, between the Bloor and Lawrence stations, stopped just after 4:30 p.m. Thursday after* a bundle of cables came off the wall along the northbound tracks between the Davisville and Eglinton stations. That caused a chain reaction, pulling some 46 metres of different types of communications and signal cables from the wall, forcing the TTC to close that section of track, which carries 60,000 people in a typical evening rush hour.*

The damage proved worse than crews first thought. Around 7 p.m., the TTC said the track would reopen by 8:30 p.m.; that was later bumped back to 10 p.m.; and shortly after, TTC spokesman Brad Ross announced they'd keep the tunnel closed until 6 a.m. Friday morning.

“They said to us, it's going to take us all night to fix this,” he said. “The odds are better than good than we'll have normal service in the morning … there are no guarantees,” he said.

*Thousands of Toronto commuters were stranded Thursday when electrical cables fell onto the tracks near Eglinton station just before 5 p.m.*, forcing TTC staff to shut down the Yonge subways between Bloor and Lawrence stations.










At 11 p.m. Thursday night, crews opened the tracks from Bloor up to Davisville, leaving only Eglinton closed. Shuttle buses were running between Davisville and Lawrence, where subway service continued.

TTC staff still hoped to have full service running normally Friday morning.

Service could likely run at a slowed pace Friday morning, if signalling systems haven't been repaired and crews are forced to manually signal trains along the stretch. Mr. Ross acknowledged a worst-case scenario – trains not running, replaced by shuttle buses – is a possibility.

After trains stopped Thursday afternoon, thousands of passengers spilled onto sidewalks and roads near Yonge and Bloor streets, searching for other options to get home. The influx of pedestrians brought traffic to a standstill across the downtown core. As many as 60 buses provided shuttle service, but “certainly, one bus does not replace one subway train,” Mr. Ross said. Buses hold a few dozen people, while a full subway train holds 1,500.

That stretch of the subway line carries 500,000 people each day, peaking during, naturally, the morning and evening rush hours.

“You couldn't imagine a worse time for something like this during rush hour,” Mr. Ross said Thursday night.

It was one of two delays that stalled trains Thursday. About 45 minutes earlier, trains on the Bloor-Danforth lines were stopped briefly as two people were found carrying knives. They were arrested and now face charges. Those delays lasted only a few minutes.

source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080925.wttc0925/BNStory/National/home


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## hkskyline

*Police board turns down TTC request for more constables *
17 October 2008
The Globe and Mail

The Toronto Police Services Board yesterday put on the brakes, for now, on a request to add more special constables to patrol the city's subway system.

The move comes amid growing concern by the civilian police oversight body and the Toronto Police Service over the Toronto Transit Commission's plans for a significant expansion of its unarmed special constables who have police-like powers to arrest.

“Why are we doing this?” board chairman Alok Mukherjee asked after yesterday's meeting. “Are we building another police force?”

At issue is that special constables, approved for duty by the police board, are not governed by the same rules as the police, such as the oversight by the province's Special Investigations Unit, civilian complaints or codes of conduct. The TTC has its own less formal rules without the legislative punch applicable to the police.

“We want to examine if the current arrangement is the best arrangement and what are the alternatives to it,” Mr. Mukherjee said, with the board set to debate the options at its next meeting in November.

The board had approved 15 more TTC constables in August, but yesterday turned back a request for another 10 this year, pending further talks with the TTC to set out new rules on oversight.

“The TTC's core business is not policing, but running a safe public transit system,” Mr. Mukherjee said. “The policing function is to provide policing to the city.”

That view was echoed yesterday by Police Chief Bill Blair.

“The police are responsible for doing the police job and I don't think we need to have multiple police services in the city of Toronto,” he said, adding “if it is a police job, the police should do it and if it is a security job, the security people should do it.

“We need a legislative framework that clearly defines the difference.”

Despite the temporary rebuff by the board, TTC chief general manager Gary Webster was upbeat about being able to carry out commission plans to boost the number of special constables to 176 in 2011, up from 95 last year.

“The special constable program is a very effective one,” he said. “At this point, there is no consideration being given to changing the policing model.”


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## swaugh3

hkskyline said:


> *Police board turns down TTC request for more constables *
> 17 October 2008
> The Globe and Mail
> 
> “Why are we doing this?” board chairman Alok Mukherjee asked after yesterday's meeting. “Are we building another police force?”


They might as well.


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## trainrover

^^ If they were to 'might as well', then I could guarantee that city upstream that their additional officers' lone mandate would be to catch fare evaders -- since Montreal's own patrol revision, loads of Montreal coppers virtually velcro themselves alongside the metro turnstiles.....nary an officer is seen patrolling an underground passageway, platform or train in Montréal...


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## hkskyline

*TTC marks ridership record as it improves bus-subway links *
21 November 2008
National Post

The Toronto Transit Commission has set a ridership record, topping a 20-year high, at the same time that it announces improved bus service in a bid to handle even more riders. The transit commission announced yesterday its 12-month ridership hit 465 million rides in mid-November, surpassing 1988's 463.5 million. ''The service improvements that go into effect this Sunday will reduce crowding and improve the quality of service,'' the TTC said in a release. Starting on Sunday, the TTC is aligning all bus routes with subway operating hours, and riders can take almost any bus route between 6 a. m. and 1 a. m. all week long. ''Routes that used to only operate during peak periods, or midday, will now run during the same hours that the subway operates, with a maximum of 30-minute waiting times,'' the TTC said. ''An increase in the number of buses during peak periods will mean an increase in service for customers across Toronto.''


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## Ramako

Two questions:

1) Will be building of light rail preclude the city from building more subways in the future? I mean, if the demand and the money where to became available, could they bury the tracks of existing lines or are we always going to be stuck with light rail on, say Eglington or Sheppard.

2) Are these light rail line going to show up on the traditional subway maps as new routes? I.e. to the lay person, will this essentially look like an extension of the subway system?


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## hkskyline

I thought the whole purpose of using LRT is because there isn't enough money for subways. I'd argue that once the tracks are in-place, unless the density profile substantially changes, there's no longer a need to build a subway (ie. preclude case).


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## Ramako

hkskyline said:


> I thought the whole purpose of using LRT is because there isn't enough money for subways. I'd argue that once the tracks are in-place, unless the density profile substantially changes, there's no longer a need to build a subway (ie. preclude case).


Well, I mean in the future, like 20 or 30 years.

Also, I meant technically, not practically.


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## hkskyline

Ramako said:


> Well, I mean in the future, like 20 or 30 years.
> 
> Also, I meant technically, not practically.


I don't think even the busy corridors along King / Queen have ever warranted a subway service although the streetcars are busy running at frequent intervals. I can't find a recent example of LRT turned subway either in Toronto.

I don't think LRT infrastructure can be easily adapted into subways, and the TTC is not going to dig tunnels to put streetcars in them either until subways become feasible. It contradicts the cost argument.


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## hkskyline

*TTC retains paramedics in subway *
28 November 2008
The Toronto Star

A pilot project that stationed a paramedic at the Bloor subway station on weekdays has reduced rush-hour train delays, delivered faster care to sick riders and persuaded the TTC to continue the program next year.

Ill passengers are the leading cause of delays on weekday rush hours, accounting for more than 49 hours of lost service last year.

Paramedics from Toronto Emergency Medical Services on hand at the station during the morning and afternoon rush hours have been able to respond to 70 per cent of all subway passenger illness and injury calls since the pilot began. The hope is to increase that to 95 per cent, said Paul Raftis, manager of EMS operations.

"The trains are running on about a two-minute cycle. For us to get from a surface route down into the TTC, it could take us eight, nine, 10 minutes to get right down to the train. With a TTC paramedic on the scene, it may only take them two minutes to get there. So you're saving in some cases six or eight minutes," he said.

An eight-minute delay on the Yonge line at rush hour is the equivalent of four trainloads, each carrying about 1,300 people.

It's not clear whether another team will be added in the future.

The number of calls a single paramedic and TTC supervisor handle is "extraordinary," said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

"I thought we'd need four or five teams to cover the system, but apparently that's not the case. What that tells us is the (emergency) calls are concentrated in the downtown and they're concentrated in rush hour."

The 2009 TTC budget will cover the $150,000 cost of the program, Giambrone said.


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## trainrover

What's the likelihood of a TTC passenger changing trains three times along the subway & RT there?


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## sumisu

slim to nil.


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## Homer J. Simpson

trainrover said:


> What's the likelihood of a TTC passenger changing trains three times along the subway & RT there?


It does happen and I would say more often then people may think.

I used to take the Sheppard line from Don Mills to Yonge/Sheppard station then go via Yonge/Bloor station to Sherbourne station to commute to work.

That was a three line trip though I have to admit it was the best commute I have ever had!


----------



## Gil

^^

A three-line commute could also be made from anywhere on the Sheppard Line (say Leslie station) to Dupont if you cut across on the Bloor-Danforth instead of riding all the way around past Union.


----------



## Homer J. Simpson

^Or any trip involving the SRT which although not actual subway is considered a part of the overall subway network.


----------



## allurban

hkskyline said:


> I don't think LRT infrastructure can be easily adapted into subways, and the TTC is not going to dig tunnels to put streetcars in them either until subways become feasible. It contradicts the cost argument.


The lines that have the potential for greater density within the next, say, 10-20 years, are Eglinton and Sheppard.

Eglinton will be built with an underground tunnel and designed for conversion to a subway in the future. The cost of the Eglinton line alone is a great chunk of the Transit City budget because of that tunnel.

Sheppard east will be a surface LRT but would be integrated with the existing Sheppard subway.

Now, if the integration of the SRT with the Eglinton line (as proposed by Metrolinx) takes place, then things will be quite different.

Cheers, m


----------



## trainrover

Gil said:


> A three-line commute





Homer J. Simpson said:


> a three line trip


By changing trains three times, I meant a four-line journey.


----------



## Skybean

*Miller freezes TTC fares
TTC riders will see ticket prices remain unchanged for now.
Vanessa Lu
Staff Reporter*

Toronto Mayor David Miller promised today to freeze TTC fares for next year.

"The growing economic crisis is having a profound effect on all of us. Many people have lost their jobs," he told reporters just before city council's special meeting to debate the $1.6 billion capital budget.

"People who are looking for work need to get around to find work."

Miller conceded that a fare freeze will put pressure on the TTC's budget, but argued TTC riders need a break.

The cash fare is now $2.75, or 10 tokens for $22.50. Last November, when fares were increased, the monthly Metropass jumped from $99.75 to $109.

"The economic situation has been nothing short of unpredictable. The scope of what we're witnessing is unprecedented and worldwide," Miller said.

City officials will continue to work toward the goal of a 2 to 4 per cent residential property tax hike when the operating budget is tabled next year.

He also argued that action is needed both locally and nationally, calling on the federal government to earmark funding for infrastructure and transit projects when Parliament resumes at the end of January.

He touted the city's plan to create and protect 35,000 jobs next year through capital spending on road repairs, bridge construction and new bike lanes. As well, the city plans to buy 360 new subway cars, 130 new buses and possibly more streetcars, if Ottawa agrees to kick in cash.

Opposition councillors including Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong will be calling on the city today to consider selling some real estate assets and reinvesting those funds in road construction and recreation facilities.

"I think a number of the city's assets are being underutilized and there's hidden value. We have to look at our real estate assets, which are worth over $16 billion," Minnan-Wong said.

source: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/551451


----------



## Tuscani01

trainrover said:


> What's the likelihood of a TTC passenger changing trains three times along the subway & RT there?


I used to take the Spadina line to the Bloor line, Bloor line to the Yonge line and down the Yonge line to Dundas.


----------



## Skybean

*Faulty turnstiles impede subway traffic









JACK LAKEY/TORONTO STAR
Two turnstiles at the TTC's Finch station have not worked for months.
Dec 10, 2008 04:30 AM
Jack Lakey
Staff Reporter*

Broken-down turnstiles are causing rush-hour bottlenecks at the TTC's Finch station.

If there is anything that requires all its components to work smoothly to provide optimal service, it's the subway.

Trains and tracks are at the heart of a system designed to quickly move people across large distances, but small things like d*oors, escalators and automated equipment must be in good order for it to be efficient during peak periods, when hundreds of thousands of people cram the subway at the same time.*

Michael Sheiner emailed to say tw*o turnstiles at the south entrance to the sprawling Finch subway station, at Yonge St. and Finch Ave., have been cordoned off for months. *When they're working, the turnstiles accept tokens and Metropasses, which makes it much easier to get in during rush hour by allowing riders to bypass the collector's booth. "You have to either wait in line to see the person in the booth, or use one of the two `token-only' turnstiles that are in working order, which is very inconvenient," he said.

Finch is the north terminus for the Yonge subway line, with buses from York Region's Viva service and GO Transit dropping off riders, as well as the TTC's own buses, making it one of the busiest stations in the system.

All that commuter traffic creates wear and tear on the infrastructure, which is painfully apparent at Finch. When we were there Monday,* stairs descending from the northwest corner of Yonge and Finch were littered with trash and narrowed at the bottom by plywood hoarding.*

Just a few metres from the out-of-service turnstiles was an area of floor next to a wall that is closed off by barricades. *Some floor tiles have been removed within the area, with a bunch of sand bags in the middle of it. We were told it's been that way for six months.*

The TTC is trying hard to improve the appearance of stations, which is evident at some, like the downtown Museum station. But there's a long way to go at Finch.

STATUS: A TTC employee working in the collector's booth next to the turnstiles said they haven't been fixed due to a delay in obtaining parts. Danny Nicholson, who deals with media for TTC, is getting back to us with a timeline for repairs.

UPDATE: Our Monday column detailed how The Fixer got a $39.80 wagering voucher from a self-serve betting terminal at a Champions horse racing teletheatre that couldn't be cashed. Jane Holmes, of Woodbine Gaming and Entertainment, called to say it was due to an error by a mutuels clerk, and has since refunded us the money. We'll round it up to $50 and donate it to the Sportsmen's Corner of the Star's Santa Claus fund.

What's broken in your neighbourhood? Wherever you are in Greater Toronto, we want to know. To email us, go to www.thestar.com/thefixer and click on the submit a problem link. Or call us at 416-869-4823.

source: http://www.thestar.com/GTA/Fixer/article/551288

=====

*New TTC signs confusing for visitors
JACK LAKEY/TORONTO STAR
Union Station sign now shows TTC logo, not symbol for subway trains.









Oct 28, 2008 04:30 AM
Jack Lakey
Staff Reporter*

The TTC may be The Better Way, but not if you can't find it.

Few services are more dependent on good signage than large-scale public transit. With all its stations, bus and streetcar routes, the TTC relies on signs to steer people in the right direction.

Toronto's main public transit terminus is Union Station at Bay and Front Sts., where the TTC subway and trains operated by GO Transit and VIA Rail converge. A huge number of people stream in and out of Union Station each day.

Most of the ground floor at Union Station is occupied by GO's concourse, where riders are funnelled to the right train platform or enter on their way from a GO train to the subway or a VIA train.

Alan Fenton has called twice to complain about signage in the GO concourse, noting many of the signs that send commuters in various directions were changed recently.

*"They used to have signs that indicated `subway' with the international symbol for subway trains," which is a silhouette of the front of a subway car sitting on tracks, said Fenton, but have changed all of them to the TTC's corporate logo.*

*When Fenton pointed this out to GO staff at Union Station, he says they were hostile and blamed the city*, which owns the station, for the new signs. While many of us in Toronto know that TTC stands for Toronto Transit Commission, Fenton said many visitors wouldn't have a clue know what it means and would have to ask for directions instead of being guided by a sign. *"I was told by another GO Transit official that it was the responsibility of tourists to ask for directions ...*

"My point is, who on earth besides people who live in Toronto know what the stylized TTC logo stands for? The concourse is very crowded and busy and you would think GO would want people to move quickly and efficiently."

STATUS: Mike DeToma, who deals with media for the TTC, checked and confirmed that GO revamped its signage at Union Station about a month ago. DeToma also checked with TTC's customer service to confirm that so far, nobody's complained to them about it. But he agreed that it could be confusing for tourists.

We're waiting to hear from Ed Shea, who deals with media for GO.

What's broken in your neighbourhood? Wherever you are in Greater Toronto, we want to know. To email us, go to www.thestar.com/thefixer and click on the submit a problem link. Or call us at 416-869-4823.

source: http://www.thestar.com/GTA/Fixer/article/525646
======

The Fixer has complaints regarding the TTC almost every week! hno:


----------



## Skybean

Embarrassing. hno:

*Story spawns growing list of complaints about TTC

Now readers tell of escalators broken down for 6 months – a pain for elderly, disabled passengers
Dec 13, 2008 04:30 AM
Jack Lakey
Staff Reporter*

It doesn't take much to light a fire under the seats of TTC riders. Mention doors or escalators and watch the sparks fly.

On Wednesday, we reported on two automated turnstiles that had long been out of service at the Finch subway station, causing delays for people who would otherwise be able to use tokens or Metropasses.

*By Thursday, about a dozen emails and calls had arrived from readers pointing out similar problems at other stations*, along with a few choice words about delays in repairing them and inconvenience to seniors and people with reduced mobility.

Mark Orfus sent an email saying *an escalator at the Sheppard station that ascends to the southwest corner of Yonge St. and Sheppard Ave. has been out of service since last summer*. "Every so often they have people tinkering with it, but *it has never been operational in six months. It's unheard of.*"

*Ingrid Auer's email said five escalators at Wilson station weren't working during November, adding a notice was recently posted saying they won't be operational until the new year.*

"I have a damaged knee and am waiting for surgery," said Auer. "I know for myself that going down three flights, walking across a corridor and going up two flights of stairs every morning is quite painful. I can only imagine the discomfort for the elderly and disabled."

STATUS: The TTC likely has plans and timelines to fix those problems, but haven't shared them with riders. We forwarded all the complaints to Mike DeToma, who deals with media for the TTC. DeToma said he'd find out what the plans are to fix them and get back to us with the details.

source: http://www.thestar.com/article/553262
====


More useless expenditure by the TTC. 

*TTC urges hiring of 60 supervisors
Putting more traffic managers out on the street would improve flow of buses, Giambrone argues
Dec 13, 2008 04:30 AM

Tess Kalinowski
Transportation Reporter
*
All that bus service Toronto added this year will run more efficiently if 60 new supervisors are hired to manage the routes, says TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

They would do the same job as those who manage difficult streetcar lines such as Queen – keeping an eye on where buses are down the line and minimizing the short turns and bunching that occurs when too many buses arrive at a stop at about the same time.

Bunching means packed buses are often followed closely by others that are nearly empty.

Passengers who miss the "bunch" can end up waiting too long for the next bus.

"It's unacceptable, our route management right now. It's a real source of customer complaint," said Giambrone.

Those 60 new supervisors would cost the TTC $6 million.

But with 2009 expected to be another difficult budget year in Toronto and the mayor promising a fare freeze, hiring more staff is expected to be a tough sell with the city's budget committee.

*Already nearly half – $782 million – of Toronto's capital budget has been devoted to the TTC*. So the commission's requests for operating funds are likely to face close scrutiny in the new year.

The commission is asking the city for a $330 million subsidy on its $1.2 billion operating budget – including $27 million over last year to cover increased labour costs.

It's already being suggested that the TTC's plan to ramp up bus service to ensure 20-minute intervals across the system – an improvement on the 30-minute service introduced last month – could be in jeopardy.

Street supervisors improve the efficiency of existing service, argues Giambrone.

Equipped with hand-held GPS devices, they can do things the TTC's control centre can't – ensure buses pull out of designated waiting spots on time, and curtail bunching.

"You can see 180 people waiting to board buses only if you're on the street," he pointed out.

Of 129 supervisors tracking TTC routes, 59 work on computers, 35 are roving supervisors and 35 deal directly with operators on the street, Giambrone said.

In 2000, the ratio of operators to supervisors was about 20:1.

In the unlikely event that the TTC hires no new operators until 2011, that ratio would then rise to about 33:1.

But if more supervisors are hired, the proportion would be about 24:1.
*
Supervisors earn about $70,000 a year.*

source: http://www.thestar.com/article/553206


----------



## isaidso

Skybean said:


> *I was told by another GO Transit official that it was the responsibility of tourists to ask for directions ...*


That is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time, but indicative of the mentality of so many government run organizations. Isn't that the point of having a sign in the first place? I suppose that GO Transit official has 20 staff who can each speak over 100 languages at every station looking for lost tourists.

I doubt that. That official is far too stupid to be working anywhere. Put him in a home.


----------



## trainrover

isaidso said:


> Isn't that the point of having a sign in the first place?


It's been written a few times that Expo '67 has been the only time that --indigenous communities excluded-- properly sufficient signage existed anywhere coast to coast to coast here.


----------



## isaidso

^^ Canada gets many things right, but signage has always been one of those small things that always irritates me here. It's usually inadequate, confusing, or non-existent.


----------



## Skybean

isaidso said:


> That is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time, but indicative of the mentality of so many government run organizations. Isn't that the point of having a sign in the first place?


I agree totally. This is directly discouraging tourists from visiting Toronto. It's absolutely embarrassing and unacceptable.

Check this "new" TTC feature. It has been implemented in virtually all other world metro stations since the early 1990s. 



> *TTC wait times on texts, screens
> AARON HARRIS/TORONTO STAR
> The first screens in a $5.2 million GPS-based system show when the next Spadina streetcars will arrive Dec. 15, 2008.
> 
> Dec 16, 2008 04:30 AM
> Tess Kalinowski
> TRANSPORTATION REPORTER*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If information is power, then the TTC is about to put a little bit more of it into the hands of riders.
> 
> A new $5.2 million GPS-based screen system means TTC patrons will have access to next-vehicle-arrival information on streetcar and bus platforms by early 2010.
> 
> But even before that system is fully installed, riders will be able to get information about when the next bus or streetcar will arrive via text messages on their cellphones.
> 
> LCD displays inside stations will show when the next several vehicles are due to arrive and map where other streetcars and buses are located down the route. LED screens, which are less susceptible to weather conditions, will announce next-vehicle-arrival information on platforms.
> 
> By late next year, similar information will be available on LED screens at about 350 outdoor transit shelters across the city.
> 
> Giving riders the ability to learn how far down the line the next vehicle is means they can grab a cab instead or take time to get a coffee, depending on their schedule.
> 
> "It will give people more information to make intelligent decisions about how they travel and move around the city, and that's critical," said TTC chair Adam Giambrone, who showed off the new screens at the 510 Spadina streetcar platform yesterday.
> 
> The system is expected to become increasingly accurate as it records data based on variations in the vehicles' travel pattern and calculates the differences, he said.
> 
> Also coming to the TTC next year is a text-based system that will allow riders to receive next-vehicle-arrival information for the more than 10,000 bus and streetcar stops in the city via text messaging. Each stop will post a number that riders can use to access that information.
> 
> About 6,000 of the TTC's surface stops have shelters. The new shelters being installed as part of the city's street furniture project are wired to work with the LED signs. But it's not clear yet which shelters will get the displays, said TTC spokesperson Brad Ross.
> 
> "There's a criterion that needs to be established with respect to which shelters those go in. There are about 3,000 stops that are fairly major intersections," he said.
> 
> A next-train arrival system for the subway will be installed on subway platforms around the city early next year.
> 
> "No matter where you are, you will have access to real-time information at your stop," Giambrone said.
> 
> The same information will be available on the TTC's web page.
> 
> More is coming in the next year, including the opportunity to sign up for email alerts on problems in the system. Next summer, the TTC hopes to launch a trip planner that will help riders map and time a route anywhere on the system.
> 
> source: http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/554383


While frivolous upgrades are being done to the system, even maintaining the basic sanitary conditions of stations are a challenge. Most are in a deplorable state with litter strewn everywhere and no working elevators or escalators. Disabled? Forget it, you won't be using the TTC.



> *TTC turnstiles are working, but garbage at Finch lingers
> 
> Fixer's Guide to Getting Things Done
> Dec 15, 2008 04:30 AM
> Jack Lakey
> STAFF REPORTER*
> 
> Broken-down turnstiles that caused commuter bottlenecks at the TTC's Finch Station are back in service, but a trash-strewn area near the entrance needs to be cleaned up at once.
> 
> Our Wednesday column was about two automated turnstiles at the south entrance that had long been cordoned off, creating backups at the collectors' booth during peak periods.
> 
> Danny Nicholson, who deals with media for the TTC, called Friday to say the problem was corroded wiring, which was fixed the day after the story.
> 
> The column also mentioned a small, fenced-in area across from the turnstiles where floor tiles had been removed, which a TTC employee said had been that way for six months.
> 
> *Aside from several sandbags in the area that serve no clear purpose, it is strewn with coffee cups, cigarette packages and other refuse. Worse, there's a revolting layer of liquid on the floor with greasy, congealed stuff floating on top, to which large fuzz balls have attached themselves.
> *
> We know the TTC's cleaning staff is stretched thin, but the mess inside the fence is indefensible.
> 
> source: http://www.thestar.com/GTA/Fixer/article/553766


The TTC is a system fit for a third world city.


----------



## flesh_is_weak

Skybean said:


> The TTC is a system fit for a third world city.


exactly.

Seoul and Hong Kong are better


----------



## hkskyline

*Light-rail plan favoured over Yonge line extension *
Dec 18, 2008 04:30 AM
Toronto Star

It's not that the TTC doesn't want to extend the Yonge subway line 6.8 kilometres into York Region. It's just that Toronto doesn't want it built at the expense of the city's other priorities.

After listening to a lengthy update yesterday on the $2.4 billion plans for the extension from Finch station to Richmond Hill Centre, north of Highway 7, councillors on the Toronto Transit Commission are still looking for projected ridership when the proposed extension opens – as soon as 2017.

There are various projections for ridership in 2031, but they're based on potential intensification around some of the proposed stations, and the existing cost estimates don't take into account multi-million-dollar items such as train yards and expanding platform capacity at Bloor station.

Dollar for dollar, the TTC's Transit City light-rail plan will serve more riders than a subway extension, said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

Unlike the Spadina extension, funding is not yet attached to the Yonge extension.

The $2.4 billion estimated cost could climb as high as $4 billion, said Giambrone.

But the project is on the Metrolinx list of priorities anticipated to get part of the $11.5 billion the province has pledged to transit by 2020.

Yesterday's TTC report says only $5 million is expected for the Yonge extension in the province's spring budget.

Meanwhile, planning for the extension, to this point steered by York Region, is progressing quickly. It's possible shovels could go in the ground by 2012.

The first three of seven Transit City light-rail lines into the suburbs also have been designated as Metrolinx priorities, but some councillors fear the money won't suffice for everything on that list.

"It may be the perfect time to be (building) two or three Transit City lines at once, (a Scarborough rapid transit line), two subway lines, both the Spadina extension and the Yonge extension," Giambrone said.

"All we're saying is, fund your state of good repair, fund Transit City, and then, if we want to talk about other projects, we're happy to go ahead and do them.

"We have the capacity to do that, but we have to make sure the funding's in place. I can't run the system on a hope and prayer. I have to have committed capital dollars."

A public meeting on the Yonge extension is expected in January.


----------



## allurban

Skybean said:


> I agree totally. This is directly discouraging tourists from visiting Toronto. It's absolutely embarrassing and unacceptable.
> 
> Check this "new" TTC feature. It has been implemented in virtually all other world metro stations since the early 1990s.
> 
> 
> 
> While frivolous upgrades are being done to the system, even maintaining the basic sanitary conditions of stations are a challenge. Most are in a deplorable state with litter strewn everywhere and no working elevators or escalators. Disabled? Forget it, you won't be using the TTC.
> 
> 
> 
> The TTC is a system fit for a third world city.


It is easy to say that but do remember that the TTC system started operating in 1954 and most of the stations were finished by 1965. Aside from the Sheppard Line and Downsview station, the rest of the TTC is more than 25 years old.

TTC would be able to do anything and everything that the newcomer cities could do if they had the funds. They have been starved of proper funding since 1994, that is 15 years of lost opportunities.

Cheers, m


----------



## ssiguy2

I think Yonge is a good investment and FAR superior than subway ext north of Steels on the Spadina Ext. 

That said I think the TTC has a point. With thosee kinds of extra funds they could make a REAL Sheppard cross-town route whether that be elevate a subway or preferably switch the stubway to LRT and then have the Sheppard line continue east to Jane. Sheppard is a mess. 

Also some of those extra funds could be used to ext the DonMills line south of Bloor to Queen and eventually turn down Queen to an DRL beginning at the DVP. 

Jane could also be extended south past Bloor to hook up onto the Waterfront LRT and further east down Steeles to not only YorkU but all the way to Yonge. 

TransitCity could use $2billion to fill a lot of the LRT gaps.


----------



## spongeg

the Toronto system does look pretty grubby from what I remeber of using it - but a lot of it dates to when it was done/built/reno'd etc.

they need more moneyto really update it

found this article about the line though...



> *Man charged with attempted murder after teens pushed onto subway tracks*
> 
> TORONTO (CBC) - A Toronto man accused of pushing three teenagers at a west-end subway station, sending two onto the tracks in front of an oncoming train, has been charged with attempted murder.
> 
> Adenir DeOliveira, 47, appeared in a Toronto court on Saturday and was ordered to undergo a psychiatric evaluation. He will remain in police custody until his bail hearing.
> 
> 
> DeOliveira is charged with three counts of attempted murder and two assault charges.
> 
> 
> Toronto police allege two teens were deliberately pushed onto the tracks in front of an eastbound train at the Dufferin subway station at about 4:50 p.m. on Friday.
> 
> 
> "Totally unprovoked. We didn't know the guy," one of three teens who was pushed told CBC News.
> 
> 
> A court order was also issued on Saturday preventing the naming of the victims or their relatives.
> 
> 
> The youth said the group of teens didn't have any interaction with the man who pushed them.
> 
> 
> He was pushed by the man but was able to regain his balance and did not fall off the platform and onto the subway tracks. Two of his friends, however, did tumble into the path of a train.
> 
> 
> One of the teens, 14, was able to crawl under the platform, and pulled his friend, 15, along with him, out of the way of the approaching train. But his friend's left foot was clipped by the train.
> 
> 
> Some of the teen's friends chased after the man believed to have pushed the boys, who fled the scene.
> 
> 
> A ticket collector and another bystander were allegedly assaulted by the man and joined the pursuit. They were able to apprehend the man a few blocks away from the station and hold him until police arrived and arrested him.
> 
> 
> The father of the injured 15-year-old told CBC News on Saturday that reports the boy's foot and toes were crushed are untrue.
> 
> 
> "He's doing well. He's in good spirits. He had some surgery last night on his foot," the father of the injured boy said.
> 
> 
> His son had just turned 15 on Thursday and was out celebrating with a group of four friends from elementary school on Friday afternoon.
> 
> 
> The father said his son surviving the incident is the best birthday gift anyone in the family could have received.
> 
> 
> The father said there are some concerns about blood supply to his son's foot that are being examined by medical staff. But the family has been told any damage will be cosmetic.
> 
> 
> The boy was expected to be released from hospital by Saturday night.
> 
> 
> A pushing incident on Toronto's subway system has not occurred since 1997, when a woman was killed after being thrown in front of a subway at Dundas station.
> 
> "We're just grateful these children were not killed and we wish them nothing but a speedy recovery both physically and mentally," said Toronto Transit Commission spokesman Brad Ross said, adding it was a rare and isolated incident.
> 
> "I can not imagine the fear and the complete terror that they must have felt at that time. The act of that 14-year-old to pull his friend over and to think so quickly is quite impressive," Ross said.
> 
> Every subway platform in Toronto has yellow tactile tiles that indicate the edge of the platform.
> 
> Other safety measures include an intercom to the collectors, a video camera and pay phone.
> 
> But the mother of one of the teens said the TTC should be looking at installing a barrier system after Friday's incident.
> 
> "Occasionally when these matters happen and they don't happen frequently at all we're asked questions about platform screen doors," said Gary Webster, chief general manager for the TTC.
> 
> Webster said the transit commission is studying installing a barrier system at its 69 stations but that it would likely cost more than $6 million.
> 
> Each day, more than 1.5 million rides are taken via the Toronto subway system.


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/090214/canada/canada_toronto_subway_push_1


----------



## Skybean

*Subway barriers a long way off for TTC
Attack on teens renews call for platform screens, but city says installation is at least 15 years away
Feb 16, 2009 04:30 AM
Robyn Doolittle
STAFF REPORTER*

Toronto is $800 million and* at least 15 years away from constructing platform screens in city subway stations.* :nuts:

In the wake of Friday's unprovoked attack at Dufferin station, where a stranger pushed two teenage boys onto the tracks, the debate surrounding subway barriers is once again brewing in the city.

TTC chair Adam Giambrone says while he supports the idea, erecting screens isn't as easy as securing Plexiglas panels along the tracks.

"Platform screen doors require what's called Automatic Train Control. That's what drives the train automatically," he said. "A computer can stop at precisely the same spot every time."

A little over a year and a half ago, Toronto began a massive project to retrofit the entire subway system with this new technology, but until that's completed, platform screens would be impossible.

The first phase of the project, the Yonge-University line, will cost about $400 million. By 2012, officials are expecting a number of stations between Union and Eglinton will be automated. The entire loop could be done as early as 2016.

"Although until all the stations are done, commuters won't really see the benefits," said Giambrone.

Those benefits are extensive.

For one thing, computer-operated trains eliminate a margin of error. At present, platform lengths allow each train to carry an additional car, but the possibility of human error prevents it. The automated system would also allow for increased runs.

The Bloor-Danforth line is the second phase of construction. It carries a $400 million price tag and won't be completed until the mid-2020s. Once the system is upgraded, *city officials will have to make the decision whether to dole out between $5 million and $8 million more per station to install barriers*. (??????? The doors are being constructed out of gold?)

The province offered to fund a large portion of the initial project, but money is still an important factor in selecting which stations, if any, would come equipped with screens. King, Union, and Bloor are top candidates, said Giambrone.

*The barriers will also help prevent small track fires. Litter that lands on the electrified third track can sometimes briefly ignite. Even that small burst of flames can trigger smoke alarms and prevent a car from entering a station, causing significant delays.*

"We'd like to have (the barriers) ..., but it is a fairly long process and unfortunately they are not a solution we can employ in the short run," Giambrone said.

Meanwhile, the investigation into Friday's attack continues. Giambrone and other TTC officials were briefed on the incident and learned that transit officials have had no previous altercations with Adenir DeOliveira. DeOliveira, 47, has been charged with attempted murder in connection to the incident.

source: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/588204

====

I won't be holding my breath for this. hno:


----------



## hkskyline

Can't they just put a sign on the track saying 'trains stop here'? I thought they already have that (eg. 6-car train stop place, 8-car train stop place).


----------



## Electrify

I'm at the point where I think the TTC should just revamp current stations and give up on expanding transit lines. I mean, we can't get ANYTHING done without it being hijacked politically, so why bother? Let's invest millions/billions into making the stations not look like public washrooms, and simply throw more buses on to the streets.

If this ever gets done (not enough people have died from jumping or being pushed on to the tracks for a government operation, I suppose), stations like Yonge need this first. In some places, it can be dangerous crossing the narrow platform with so many people using it.


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## cazswell

Does it honestly matter what a subway station looks like? Service is the most important thing when it comes to public transit - not what city has the best looking subway stations/busses/street cars.

Subway platform barriers simply are not a priority right now for the TTC - how often does an incident like this happen? Rarely. As unfortunate as it is, it's not as big as a problem as is expanding the transit system overall. Electrify does have some point in what he says, that "not enough people have died from jumping or being pushed onto the tracks." Working in a government transportation job right now, issues are addressed when problems happen, for the most part. It sounds stupid (and yes, it can be), but that's just how it works, and it's not going to change unless the Ontario Gov't wins some sort of multi-billion (trillion?) dollar lottery.

I agree that some minor (and some major) cosmetic work needs to be done at several stations - painting, new tiles, postponed repairs etc. - for general upkeep of the station, but what's wrong with the turnstiles, bland interiors, or even the use of a streetcar pole instead of a modern pantograph (I've heard many complaints from others about this). If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Turnstiles aren't broke, bland interiors aren't broke, and the streetcar poles ain't broke either. The upgrades will come eventually once their needed, and honestly, they aren't needed right now.

Toronto isn't Beijing with mass amounts of cash getting funnelled in from the federal government (read: it gets zip), and there are a LOT more rules in terms of building ANYTHING here - environmental assessments, contract bidding, public consultation, property acquisition (even getting the smallest piece of property can be a hassle thanks to one NIMBY, and there's a NIMBY for everything), etc. etc., so it's not fair in the slightest to compare the two. It would be fair to compare the two based on the service they provide based on the assets available to them, and I'm sure the outcome here would at least put Toronto on par with Beijing.


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## Skybean

*Councillors urge TTC fare hike instead of tax hike

Updated: Tue Feb. 17 2009 6:35:45 PM

ctvtoronto.ca
*
Toronto city council is debating increasing the cost of a TTC fare in exchange for a lowered property tax.

The debate comes a week after Mayor David Miller proposed a four per cent property tax increase in the 2009 operating budget.

Some *councillors say homeowners have paid enough and that transit riders should have to face some of the tax burden as well.
*
"*Why should taxpayers who already get to pay other inflationary costs now have to pay this while riders get a free ride?*" said councillor Doug Holiday in an interview with CTV Toronto. (LOL free ride...:cheers

Critics of the proposed property tax hike say a 10-cent TTC fare increase would raise about $20 million for the city. That is the same amount that would be generated by a one per cent property tax increase.

Shelley Carroll, Toronto's budget chief, said that raising fares would cost the TTC millions of riders.

"*We did increase fares during the last recession and 45 million riders left the system. It took decades to get them back*," she said.

In the budget Miller proposed on Feb. 11, the mayor vowed not to raise TTC fares in 2009.

Many homeowners told CTV Toronto they also use the TTC so they'll have to pay more on both ends.

With a report from CTV Toronto's Naomi Parness

source: http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...TC_debate_090217/20090217/?hub=TorontoNewHome
===

Which councillor actually takes the TTC? Probably one or two at most. The talk is now of a fare increase of 25 cents. Way to prey on the vulnerable - the city's blue collar workers, students and poor who cannot afford cars.


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## UD2

And yet we sit around everyday teaching others how run their countries. Arn't we just truly great.


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## Homer J. Simpson

I am probably one of the few here who actually directly pays property tax in Toronto.

At first my knee jerk reaction was to agree because it does irk me that the 905 masses use the system at a discounted rate. Then my common sense resurfaced and I realized I would rather pay a tax hike than scare those people and Torontonians off of the TTC and into their cars.

It is a small price to pay to keep people using the TTC. I would actually support a slightly higher P-Tax increase to knock off the cost on fares or to add to service as well.


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## Electrify

^^ Haven't read it, but the Sun published an editorial supporting the TTC fare increase along with a smaller property tax hike. I can just imagine how angry those retards would have been if that was the original plan in Miller's budget. Seriously, can the writers of that paper think for themselves, or do they just suck the dick of any right winged politician?


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## sumisu

$2.85? I think there should be a law stating a maximum minimum number of coins to take the subway. right now it's 4, that's fine. but 5 is beyond the pale. I'll go back to driving my SUV for all I care!


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## Nozumi 300

sumisu said:


> $2.85? I think there should be a law stating a maximum minimum number of coins to take the subway. right now it's 4, that's fine. but 5 is beyond the pale. I'll go back to driving my SUV for all I care!


That's nothing compared to $3.25 for YRT (and thats standarization)


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## go_leafs_go02

Nozumi 300 said:


> That's nothing compared to $3.25 for YRT (and thats standarization)


you can do that with 3 coins.


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## allurban

Electrify said:


> ^^ Haven't read it, but the Sun published an editorial supporting the TTC fare increase along with a smaller property tax hike.


Maybe a fare increase combined with a subsidy for residents of Toronto? Or vouchers or free metropasses, for example for poorer residents of Toronto?

Cheers, m


----------



## hkskyline

*Man, 24, charged in subway pushing *
6 April 2009
The Globe and Mail

TORONTO -- An alleged pusher in yet another stranger-on-stranger subway attack has been arrested, one week after new surveillance cameras generated crucial leads for police.

Police say the footage from a subway station led them to arrest a suspect on the weekend, one week after a predawn pushing at the Dundas West station. The attack occurred just as the subway line was about to resume weekend operations on March 28. Few eyewitnesses appear to have been around at the time.

The victim tumbled onto the tracks after a stranger shoved him from behind, police say, but was not seriously hurt as there were no trains coming.

Meanwhile, a suspect got on a streetcar bound for Parkdale, as cameras were rolling. Video cameras, only recently installed on all Toronto buses, street cars and subway trains, filmed a stocky young man in a hoodie sitting down on the southbound 504.

Police credit the images with generating tips from the public. On Saturday, a 24-year-old man was charged with assault and mischief endangering life.

The accused also has been charged with failing to comply with the terms of a judge's release order from a previous case. Though a staff sergeant at 11 Division said last night she didn't know what the man had been previously charged with, she said it did not involve a subway attack.

In February, a 47-year-old man was charged with three counts of attempted murder following a similar attack.

During a Friday rush hour, he shoved a group of teenagers into the path of an oncoming subway train, the victims barely managing to roll away from the tracks in time. A TTC collector tackled the suspect and the accused's lawyers later told court his client had been hearing voices.

Last night the chair of the Toronto Transit Commission said that the millions of dollars taxpayers have recently invested in surveillance technology is paying off.

“The security cameras have proven an incredibly valuable investigation tool in a number of cases … including shootings and pushings and assaults,” Adam Giambrone said.


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## hkskyline

* Subways are coveted in suburbs *
29 January 2009
The Toronto Star

Councillor Howard Moscoe yesterday described his colleagues, in full debate about the viability of a subway to Richmond Hill, as "a bunch of plumbers debating brain surgery."

In other words, leave the weighty matter of transit planning to council's chosen few - including Moscoe, of course.

Despite the put-down, the debate on the proposed extension of the Yonge subway to Highway 7 shows you can learn a lot by listening. Among the first lessons is there's still a lot to learn on this issue.

How best to carry an extra 12,000 commuters 32 kilometres to downtown? By GO transit or subway? Is the subway technology an exorbitantly expensive relic, and light rapid transit, like the line on St. Clair, the future because it involves one-tenth the cost, as Councillor Joe Mihevc claims?

"The subway's day is over; everybody is building light rail," he said.

"Absolutely not so," retorted Councillor Anthony Perruzza.

Is Councillor Adam Vaughan correct that it's "insane" to take a subway out to a low-density area like Richmond Hill in anticipation of future growth? Or is Peruzza on the mark to say such construction is best because it is done at a fraction of the cost and development is sure to follow?

"Any time anybody expands public transit, that is a good thing," several councillors maintained.

"It's foolishness," said Councillor Gord Perks, of a subway to a low-density area. "You don't use a chainsaw to cut butter and don't use a butter knife to cut down trees."

In general, downtown politicians are more inclined to object to subway expansion. For one, subways gobble up oodles of cash they want diverted to beefing up already enhanced but over-subscribed service in their wards.

Suburban councillors, perennially jealous of the ease and comfort of inner-city travel, see subways as an earned right. Their general view is: Why change the rules just as suburban densities are nearing a critical mass to support a subway?

In Toronto, the downtowners have won. The new Transit City plan envisions modern light rail lines along Sheppard East, Finch West, and all along Eglinton in the next 10 years or so.

But city council has another battle on its hands - with the outer suburbs, bolstered by provincial and federal governments.

Left to Toronto council, proposals to extend the Spadina line to Highway 7 and Weston Rd. would have stalled. Ditto for the Yonge line to Richmond Hill.

But the province supports both. So does Ottawa. They are paying 80 per cent of the cost, so their opinions count. And they see new subways across the 416-905 boundary as providing a political boost to their fortunes in a vote-rich region.

So, despite the personal politics, city council voted to support the subway to Richmond Hill - with many caveats. The conditions are instructive and could double the $2.4 billion cost:

The TTC must own and operate the line and commuter lots, but wants no part of the added construction or operating costs. Do the Spadina extension first, to help divert commuters from the congested Yonge line. Fix the congestion at Bloor-Yonge, a perennial problem. Get new trains that allow riders to move between cars. Implement computerized train operations. Provide all this and, in Perks' words, the city will hold its nose and support a subway link.

Subway supporters can take comfort that the projects are administered by Metrolinx, the cross-border transportation agency set up to fly above parochial interests.

Royson James usually appears Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.


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## JustinB

Gotta love Royson James :bash:

This article is full of errors, and inconsistencies. Since when is Sheppard, Finch, and Eglinton downtown? 

What's conveniently left out is York wants a subway, but are not willing to pay for it, or the operating costs. The Spadina extension north of Steeles is a huge waste of money. York will not be paying a cent of the operating costs when it opens.


----------



## UD2

JustinB said:


> Gotta love Royson James :bash:
> 
> This article is full of errors, and inconsistencies. Since when is Sheppard, Finch, and Eglinton downtown?
> 
> What's conveniently left out is York wants a subway, but are not willing to pay for it, or the operating costs. The Spadina extension north of Steeles is a huge waste of money. York will not be paying a cent of the operating costs when it opens.



That's fine. The TTC'll just run one train every 15 minutes until the point where the tunnels need an overhaul. At that point, either somebody else step in to pay for the refurb or the TTC could just shut the York strech down.


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## Skybean

Greedy bastards!



> *3 collectors charged in TTC fare scam
> 
> Crime Stoppers
> Up to $20,000 stolen at subway stations
> Jul 29, 2009 04:30 AM
> Robyn Doolittle
> Staff Reporter*
> 
> Three TTC employees are accused of stealing as much as $20,000 in fares over the course of a year – less than three dollars at a time.
> 
> In the past week, three ticket collectors at some of the city's busiest subway stops – Union, Queen and Eglinton, all on the Yonge line – have been charged with theft under $5,000, as well as multiple counts of failing to collect a fare.
> 
> Toronto Transit Commission officials were alerted to the alleged fraud by a concerned rider, who noticed that after paying cash, they were simply waved through the turnstile by the collector. The employee is supposed to pass the fare back through the booth's window for the customer to deposit in the collection box.
> 
> "There's a couple of scenarios," said Toronto police Det. Rob Ermacora. "Someone will come up and give $5, but instead of breaking the bill, what happens is they'll give back the two and a quarter and keep the $2.75 (cash fare)."
> 
> Similarly, he continued, if someone bought four tokens, the suspect would pass the rider three, then pocket the fourth instead of putting it in the fare box.
> 
> The TTC's special constables launched an investigation with the assistance of Toronto police using surveillance cameras – there are two pointed at every collection booth – and undercover officers.
> 
> Yesterday morning, Toilane Fountain, 57, of Toronto, was arrested at the Queen station. Anthony Alfano, 65, of Whitby, and *Kiran Sachdev, 56, of Toronto, were charged last Wednesday.*
> 
> Each has been suspended without pay and will be fired if convicted, an official said.
> 
> *Sachdev made more than $125,000 last year, earning a spot on the Ontario government's so-called sunshine list of public-sector salaries published annually.
> *
> He is to appear in court Sept. 3. The other two accused are scheduled to appear Aug. 31.
> 
> The transit commission estimates tens of thousands of dollars have been stolen, said TTC chair Adam Giambrone, who added the agency collects $900 million a year in fares.
> 
> With files from Tess Kalinowski


source: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/673264


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## hkskyline

*Single-use drills to cost TTC $58M
Hefty price tag for new tunnel-boring machines needed to finish Spadina-York Region line on time*
22 July 2009
The Toronto Star

The TTC plans to spend $58 million on four giant tunnel-boring machines that will be used only once - to dig a 13.5-kilometre twin tunnel as part of the Spadina subway extension to York Region.

City councillors who sit on the Toronto Transit Commission approved the expense July 10, but only after questioning the number of machines.

The machines will be custom-built by Lovat Inc., which bid about $555,000 less than a competitor. The same company sold the TTC two similar machines for $15 million to tunnel the Sheppard subway about six kilometres between Yonge St. and Don Mills Rd.

The TTC sold the Sheppard machines to two construction companies in Russia for $2.5 million each once the line was complete. Nicknamed Rock and Roll, each weighed about 235 tonnes and could drill through about 15.7 metres of ground in eight hours.

Here are some answers transit commissioners got from TTC staff on the purchase:

Q: Would the machines used on Sheppard have worked on the Spadina extension?

A: No. The newer machines are more technologically advanced and work faster and more efficiently. They're a relatively minor part of the total construction cost of about $400 million, according to Andy Bertolo, project manager of the York-Spadina subway.

Also, the Sheppard tunnel was 5.2 metres wide. The new machines will build a 5.4-metre tunnel to accommodate a sharper curve on Spadina and new fire protection standards that require wider train walkways, he said.

Q: Couldn't the TTC buy second-hand tunnel boring machines?

A: "We have not found suitable machines in this diameter," said Bertolo.

Q: How much could the TTC recoup on its investment if it resold the machines?

A: Not more than 30 per cent.

Q: When will the machines arrive?

A: The first pair arrive in October 2010. "Machines of this type take a long period to manufacture," Bertolo said.

Q: Couldn't the TTC work with fewer machines?

A: One less machine would extend the construction schedule by five months over the anticipated 2015 completion date, according to Bertolo.

Q: Why can't the same machines be used on the new Transit City lines, including a 10-kilometre tunnel planned for the Eglinton Crosstown line?

A: The TTC doesn't yet know how wide the Transit City tunnels will be because it hasn't been decided which cars will run on those lines.

The TTC has commissioned Bombardier to build 204 light-rail vehicles (LRVs) to run on the 11 existing streetcar lines. That contract includes an option to build up to 368 more cars for Toronto's new Transit City lines, said Gary Webster, chief general manager of the TTC.

"Because (Metrolinx is) going to have involvement in all aspects of Transit City, including the car, the lines, the yards - they want to be satisfied that exercising the option from Bombardier is the right thing to do," he said.

The Transit City Eglinton Crosstown line will require 129 LRVs; the renovation of the Scarborough Rapid Transit will need 62; Finch West, 37 and Sheppard, 35.


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## Flight-FGB

*Transit City: Sheppard East LRT*

The Sheppard East EA has been completed.

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/proje..._lrt/index.htm


Comments:

Unsurprisingly, it's geared to making the case for LRT. There are few surprises. They recommended close (~400m) stop spacing.

They cite peak point ridership projections to make their case. Apparently they're expecting 3,000 per hour to ride the streetcar. 5,000 per hour would ride the route if it used subway technology. There's a catch, though: the forecast is for their insane route out to Rouge Park and the agricultural preserve. If they actually build the subway the way it's supposed to be built, to Scarborough Centre, thousands more riders per peak hour would certainly be attracted and it would benefit from major destinations at both ends.

They trot out their little chart to claim that subway only "works" above 10,000 per hour. Of course, they never look at ridership at places other than the peak point (i.e. out near Rouge Park), which I guarantee would fall well below the minimum for LRT on the chart.

They haven't come to a conclusion about whether to extend the LRT in a tunnel west from Consumers to Don Mills, or to extend the subway east one stop to Consumers. Intriguingly, they have this to say about a subway extension: "Option 3b is a much more effective 'catalyst' for denser, transit-oriented development in this development node." Perhaps it might be an interesting idea to consider just how much development could be catalyzed if the subway were extended more than just one stop.

Apparently they've also determined that single vehicles would require a headway of under 3 minutes, and the TTC apparently claims that it can't manage a route that frequent. Instead, they're going to couple them into trains to get closer to a five minute headway.


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## JustinB

I found a quote that is appropriate to this debate: "The moRe valuable you perceive your time is worth, the less valuable it actually is." So true, if people are complaining of a few extra minutes on the train.


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## Electrify

UD2 said:


> spacing is on par with simliar lines in other places.
> 
> people in this city whine and cry too much...


What other LRT "rapid transit" lines have stops spaced 450 meters apart in suburbia? Please make sure to list rapid transit lines (which is what this line is supposed to be), and not streetcar ROW lines.



JustinB said:


> I found a quote that is appropriate to this debate: "The moRe valuable you perceive your time is worth, the less valuable it actually is." So true, if people are complaining of a few extra minutes on the train.


OR... one can drive themselves as well, which ends up turning "a few extra minutes" into 2.5x the travel time. No worries though, it is not as if anyone has ever complained about transit being slow or anything...


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## JustinB

Electrify said:


> What other LRT "rapid transit" lines have stops spaced 450 meters apart in suburbia? Please make sure to list rapid transit lines (which is what this line is supposed to be), and not streetcar ROW lines.


The Tramways in Paris(except T2, which was built in an existing rail ROW). Lyon, Zurich.....




> OR... one can drive themselves as well, which ends up turning "a few extra minutes" into 2.5x the travel time. No worries though, it is not as if anyone has ever complained about transit being slow or anything...


Only you, Miketoronto, and a few others who seem to forget about the people who actually live along the transit corridor and do not park at the terminal stations, or are willing to take a bus to a station 2 km away. Either way, the Sheppard Line as been fast-tracked for completion! Good news.


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## GL_abxt

Looks really nice!


----------



## Skybean

> *Thousands caught in commuter chaos
> Police have closed Yonge St. between Charles St., south of Bloor, and Davenport Ave., north of Bloor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TTC passengers line up for northbound shuttle buses at Bloor Station.
> DAVID COOPER/TORONTO STAR*
> 
> TTC chair Adam Giambrone appeared at Yonge and Bloor on Wednesday evening and apologized to riders - many of whom approached him personally to complain - but said the TTC is doing its best to cope with the mistake of a "third-party contractor."
> 
> He said the number of shuttle buses going up and down Yonge St. between the closed stations was increased from 50 to 70 or 80 and they became much more efficient once police closed parts of Yonge north and south of Bloor to speed their passage.
> 
> But, he added, "we cannot replace 30,000 people an hour moving on the subway. You just can't move that many people up Yonge St. on buses. That's why we have a subway."
> 
> "Tonight's a complete write-off," but the TTC hopes to have full service resumed in time for Thursday morning rush hour, he said.
> 
> Engineers are assessing damage at the Jackes Ave. site where a contractor made a series of cuts in the tunnel line.
> 
> "Nothing's collapsed but you always play it safe on these things," he said.
> 
> Giambrone said that going after the contractor for TTC staff overtime and other costs associated with the disruption will be considered later. He said it's not the first time something like this has happened, noting that a couple of years ago a hotel repairing its parking deck cut through the tunnel liner near Museum Station.
> 
> TTC repair crews are working hard to fix a section of the Yonge subway line pierced by a road saw in time for tomorrow's rush hour.
> 
> "We're hopeful it will be (open in the morning). I can't say for sure. That's what our plan is, that's all I can say at this point," TTC spokesman Brad Ross said just before 6 p.m.
> 
> An estimated 1,000 people are lined up at Bloor and Yonge Sts., waiting for shuttle buses that can't keep up with the flood of people spilling out of Bloor station. Police have put up yellow tape to separate the waiting commuters from regular pedestrians trying to navigate the crowded sidewalk.
> 
> Police have closed Yonge St. between Charles St., south of Bloor, and Davenport Ave., north of Bloor, to regular traffic to ease passage for the 50 shuttle buses pressed into service. That has left east-west streets that are getting diverted traffic, including Davenport, with total gridlock.
> 
> The disruption began at 2:30 p.m. and is affecting as many as 300,000 commuters, with no service at the Davisville, St. Clair, Summerhill and Rosedale stations. Bus stops along the closed route are all packed with people and the sidewalks are crowded with commuters who decided to walk.
> 
> *"Why didn't I drive today,"* shouted an exasperated man trying to find his way into a line in the amorphous mob clamouring for a spot on one of the packed shuttles on the Eglinton station bus platform.
> 
> Hundreds of people crowded onto the platform, where special shuttles were heading southbound on Yonge.
> 
> "It's shameful," said Cora McPhail, who was scrambling with her 80-year-old mother, Maria Volkhamer, to catch the Rockettes at the Air Canada Centre.
> 
> The show started in less than an hour, so McPhail was stressed.
> 
> And angry. *She said there was no mention of the disruption when she and her mother got on the subway at Finch.
> *
> "If they had told us at Finch, I would have drove. I had my car parked there."
> 
> Ross told reporters just before 5 p.m. that buses were being pulled off other routes to act as shuttles up and down Yonge St., but commuters should think of other options. He noted a bus can hold about 60 people compared to a subway train holding 1,600.
> 
> "You can't rely on (the shuttles) if you really need to get somewhere. You'll have to find alternatives," he said.
> 
> Most of the city's cab companies were reporting a 20-minute minimum wait in the area affected by the subway closure. Taxis were "pretty scarce" according to one operator.
> 
> The TTC said the damage to the tunnel was caused by a "third-party contractor" doing work on Jackes Ave. near Yonge St. and south of St. Clair station.
> 
> The Star's Brendan Kennedy visited the scene and said the only construction crew visible belonged to Link-Line, on contract to Enbridge. Workers were busy drilling and paving Wednesday evening.
> 
> *Asked if the crew was responsible for the TTC tunnel damage, a foreman, who would not give his name, said it was a TTC issue and he didn't know what the reporter was talking about.*
> 
> "There's no accident," he said.
> 
> On its website, Link-Line refers to itself as the "largest Canadian-owned natural gas distribution contractor in Ontario."
> 
> Debbie Boukydis, a spokeswoman for Enbridge, couldn't confirm their contractor was involved in the incident.
> 
> "I do know that Link-Line was relocating a main in the area, but we're waiting to hear the same as everybody else," she said.
> 
> Link-Line could not be reached for comment.
> 
> *The disruption comes one day after city councillors hiked fares effective in the New Year, fuelling anger among those left stranded and waiting for shuttle buses.*
> 
> Sam O'Connor, after waiting in a crowd for about a half-hour, hoping to get a shuttle bus north from Bloor to Sheppard station, fumed: "I don't feel good about the TTC. The service is not getting better.
> 
> "We've got to pay $3 (starting Jan. 3) and take a shuttle? I'm not happy."
> 
> A 71-year-old pedestrian was struck and seriously injured at Yonge and Eglinton during the rush hour, causing further traffic delays.
> 
> Hamid Ghaemi, heading home to Richmond Hill from his job at Ryerson University, said he has been taking the TTC to Yonge and Finch Ave., for 23 years.
> 
> *"Get (TTC chair) Adam Giambrone to quit," Ghaemi said. "This is absolutely ridiculous. There are daily breakdowns, daily delays ... All I've seen is more riders and less efficient service."*
> 
> Phil Clerk, 54, got on the subway at St. George station, travelled down to Union, and later went north intending to go to a doctor's appointment near Davisville station. He said at no point did he hear an announcement about a disruption until he was kicked off at Bloor, adding he was cancelling the doctor's appointment and walking home to Bloor and Spadina Ave.
> 
> "I'm already late. I was thinking of walking but it's what, a 30 or 40-minute walk? My doctor's office will be closed," he said.
> 
> The TTC was suggesting as subway alternatives the 512 St. Clair streetcar from St. Clair Station to St. Clair West Station and the 32 Eglinton West bus from Eglinton Station to Eglinton West Station.
> 
> Aludia Philp, who lives at Nielson Rd. and Finch Ave. in Scarborough, is regretting her decision to take the TTC downtown to fight a parking ticket instead of driving.
> 
> "How am I going to get home now? It's a long, long way."
> 
> Dale Blackwood had to cancel a meeting at Sheppard Centre.
> 
> "I'm not going – there's no way. This is crazy. It's ridiculous."
> 
> Tonya Malcolm, a downtown office worker normally has a 90-minute commute to Finch station and then a bus to Markham Rd. in Scarborough. She couldn't guess when she'll get home tonight after waiting 15 minutes at Yonge and Bloor, watching a shuttle bus on the south side that haven't moved.
> 
> *"This really sucks. Can you imagine raising the fare to $3 for this?,"* she said.
> 
> At St. Clair station, Anthony Clayton, 27, and Brett Strong, 26, both students at the nearby National Institute of Broadcasting, were stranded outside their classroom.
> 
> They watched as packed shuttle buses zoomed by every minute or so, too full to pick up more than a few passengers at a time.
> 
> "I'm considering strapping myself to the top of one of those buses so I can get to Finch," Clayton said.
> 
> When told the problem may keep the subway shut through Thursday morning, Clayton and Strong both sighed.
> 
> "I guess I'll try to find a ride somehow," Strong said. "I'll have to ride my bike," Clayton said. "But that's a long way."
> 
> Jessica Martin, a communications adviser for the TTC, said earlier this afternoon: "We are sending our TTC engineers to look at the situation and once they determine it is safe we will resume service."
> 
> With files from Katie Daubs


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/727602--thousands-caught-in-commuter-chaos?bn=1


----------



## UD2

JustinB said:


> The Tramways in Paris(except T2, which was built in an existing rail ROW). Lyon, Zurich.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only you, Miketoronto, and a few others who seem to forget about the people who actually live along the transit corridor and do not park at the terminal stations, or are willing to take a bus to a station 2 km away. Either way, the Sheppard Line as been fast-tracked for completion! Good news.


... yup Good news, I'm happy... as we all should be.


----------



## trainrover

Skybean said:


> http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/727602--thousands-caught-in-commuter-chaos?bn=1


I don't understand why the newspaper gets all caught up at reporting *so many *passengers with where they were headed...it *really* detracts from the root of the problem and makes people out to be country bumpkins or whatnot when in fact they are not...that part of their reporting's totally redundant after already having reported that (tens) of thousands of folks were stranded; I mean, what else is a reader to expect? Just like the Gazette downstream here, I'd say the Star oughtta smarten up.


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## Electrify

JustinB said:


> The Tramways in Paris(except T2, which was built in an existing rail ROW). Lyon, Zurich.....


If we ignore the fact that the area these trams run through is _slightly_ more dense than northeast Scaborough, these routes play second fiddle to the metro and RER services. The difference between "LRT" and "streetcar ROW" is that one is the backbone to the transit infrastructure, while the other is designed for local commutes and to funnel people to the backbone services. *YES*, I am aware that technically it is all "light rail transit," but many cities refer to their "streetcar/tramways" differently from their "LRT" services.

Also take note that these cities have FAR more established "rapid transit" services compared to Toronto. The TTC offers very good local transit service, and right now the priority should be on improving longer distance transit.



> Only you, Miketoronto, and a few others who seem to forget about the people who actually live along the transit corridor and do not park at the terminal stations, or are willing to take a bus to a station 2 km away. Either way, the Sheppard Line as been fast-tracked for completion! Good news.


And you seem to forget that Toronto shares more in common with LA than it does with Paris. When it can take over an hour by transit to make a commute that can take 20 minutes by car, it is clear that something is wrong (unless Toronto's transit goal is to provide service only to teenagers and low income people, which is more in line with a small city or town than with a major urban center).

Also, for the Sheppard LRT/tramway, I proposed stops every 1 kilometer on average (so the halfway point between stops would be on average 500m). This is a good difference to satisfy local needs, while ensuring a quality travel speed.


----------



## UD2

Electrify said:


> If we ignore the fact that the area these trams run through is _slightly_ more dense than northeast Scaborough, these routes play second fiddle to the metro and RER services. The difference between "LRT" and "streetcar ROW" is that one is the backbone to the transit infrastructure, while the other is designed for local commutes and to funnel people to the backbone services. *YES*, I am aware that technically it is all "light rail transit," but many cities refer to their "streetcar/tramways" differently from their "LRT" services.
> 
> Also take note that these cities have FAR more established "rapid transit" services compared to Toronto. The TTC offers very good local transit service, and right now the priority should be on improving longer distance transit.
> 
> 
> 
> And you seem to forget that Toronto shares more in common with LA than it does with Paris. When it can take over an hour by transit to make a commute that can take 20 minutes by car, it is clear that something is wrong (unless Toronto's transit goal is to provide service only to teenagers and low income people, which is more in line with a small city or town than with a major urban center).
> 
> Also, for the Sheppard LRT/tramway, I proposed stops every 1 kilometer on average (so the halfway point between stops would be on average 500m). This is a good difference to satisfy local needs, while ensuring a quality travel speed.


then by all means... go out and make it happen. 

gogogo...


otherwise I'll still be happy with my 800 meter stops... I think it'll be great. 5 minute walk max to the next LRT stop from anypoint on the street I think is the perfect distance.


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## Electrify

the stops are going to be 400m apart...


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## JustinB

I do not know what to say. It's the same song, and there is no point in repeating myself. 

Sheppard's going to get built, people will use it. 

The TTC, and Metrolinx thinks the station spacing will attract the most riders, and I'll take their word over your assumptions.


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## hkskyline

*The 10-second solution *
11 December 2009
The Toronto Star

A few seconds saved can mean a lot, and not just in the 200-metre dash. The Toronto Transit Commission has successfully shaved about 10 seconds from subway "dwell time" at its Bloor station, and that could get thousands of commuters to work more quickly.

It all comes down to passenger flow: if people move faster to get on and off, the train spends less time in the station and, consequently, more time in motion transporting riders where they need to go. For the TTC, a 10-second reduction in train standing time at Bloor station means it can move up to three additional trains through this notoriously jammed location in a typical rush hour.

That's the outcome of a recent two-week crowd control pilot project, and TTC officials have rightly decided to make their temporary experiment a permanent feature at Bloor. The system's 10-second solution turns out to be deceptively simple: cordons have been installed to better channel passengers, and a few staff are on hand shepherding commuters to less crowded sections of the platform.

This basic approach could increase capacity by 3, 4 or even 5 per cent, according to TTC chair Adam Giambrone, all without buying a single new subway car. "That's huge," he concluded.

The much criticized TTC needs more bright ideas like this.


----------



## hkskyline

*A transit station set to bring a taste of Europe to the heart of Vaughan
Proposed terminal designed to be the gateway to revitalized, reimagined city core*
16 December 2009
The Globe and Mail

It's a transit junkie's field of dreams – a subway station designed to serve a dense, vibrant urban centre that doesn't yet exist.

The conceptual design for the Vaughan station, the approval for which the Toronto Transit Commission is set to vote on today, looks extremely out of place.

And that's the idea.

Right now, the area destined for the Vaughan Corporate Centre Station is a flat, low-density haven for big-box stores. The $177-million station, designed by Grimshaw architects features a glass-ceilinged “X” where the building's four entrances converge. It's meant to let in natural light, make the station easily navigable, less of a target for crime and to create a distinctive architectural footprint. The TTC is working with Toronto artist Paul Raff to include public art around the station.

And it's meant to be the gateway to Vaughan's revisioned, high-density urban core – a catalyst of “transit-oriented development” vaunted as the utopian solution to urban sprawl.

“European” is the word Vaughan Councillor Sandra Yeung Racco uses.

“[Commuters] can come out of the subway, they can go and get their groceries, they can go to work, to their homes, or they can do whatever,” she said. “It's a very pedestrian-oriented type of downtown. Very European: Bicycle paths, walking trails, that kind of thing.”

She wants to see a metropolitan centre mixing residences, green space and businesses that would take advantage of the “knock-out” panels in the station's design that would allow it to meld seamlessly into future store fronts.

The station is still in the nascent stages, its designers emphasize.

But the ambitious design is an essential antecedent to urban revitalization, says TTC architect David Lawson.

“It sounds cliché, but a world-class city has to pre-build the infrastructure as it grows.”

Urban planners have sworn by the concept of developing urban centres around transit nodes for years, says Ryerson University urban planning professor David Amborski. But the city's latest, ambitious transit expansion is the region's first real shot at making it work.

“You need to make an appropriate number of users to make the transit system run effectively,” Prof. Amborski said. “You need to have the ability to entice people to get out of their cars.”


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## trainrover

^^ article reminded me of the 1920s era poster-size photos of the 4-track el trailblazing into clearcut Queens -- more American than Euro, _Globe_! :colgate:


----------



## Skybean

> *If nature calls at TTC's Kennedy Station, don't answer
> 'Stinging stench' at station is not transitory
> By Jack Lakey The Fixer
> Published On Sat Jan 09 2010
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Public washrooms at Kennedy subway station fail the nose test. (Jan. 8, 2010)
> JACK LAKEY/TORONTO STAR*
> 
> No one expects to find the scent of lavender potpourri filling a public washroom, but the Kennedy subway station facilities are at the absolute opposite end of the scale.
> 
> No other washrooms in all of the GTA welcome more people daily than those in TTC stations, and readers have been complaining regularly about them for years.
> 
> Kapilan Yohanathan emailed his disgust at the Kennedy washrooms, saying: "Every single day I notice the men's room is just plain dirty. This is a health risk."
> 
> Yohanathan said he complained once to a station supervisor, who "coolly" told him the room would be cleaned up. On his return trip through the station, he says it was even worse.
> 
> "If you pass by it, you get the stinging stench of urine in your nostrils," said Yohanathan, adding the problem goes beyond repugnance "with the new strains of viral diseases out and about."
> 
> "I've travelled to many countries in the world and was critical of their washrooms, but this is the worst."
> 
> Yohanathan's vivid denunciation was enough to convince, but on Friday we did our duty and went, uh, to nose into the matter ourselves.
> 
> Wow. Nearing the side-by-side men's and women's, we caught a whiff from 10 metres away of feeble air freshener overwhelmed by many calls of nature. The complaint was not overstated.
> 
> Pity the poor souls given the miserable task of cleaning such high-traffic public sites; how could they ever stay ahead of the mess?
> 
> STATUS: We were aware from previous cases that public washrooms pose a problem not easily fixed, but we called the TTC's Jennifer Martins to report it. Martins said she'd get back to us.


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/fix...e-calls-at-ttc-s-kennedy-station-don-t-answer


----------



## Skybean

LOL!



> *Is he sleeping? Photo of McCowan TTC booth goes viral
> Raveena Aulakh Staff reporter
> Published On Fri Jan 22 2010
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A TTC ticket collector is shown apparently catching a quick 40 winks between customers.
> Jason Wieler Photo
> *
> He's inside the ticket booth, reclining on a chair, his arms draped over his stomach.
> 
> And that was enough to send this photograph of a Toronto Transit Commission collector – who appears to be snoozing – viral Thursday, sweeping around the world after it was tweeted by a transit rider.
> 
> It was enough to prompt TTC authorities to start an inquiry.
> 
> The photo was taken by Jason Wieler on Jan. 9 around 10 p.m. at McCowan Station. On Thursday, he posted it on Twitpic with this caption: "Yup, love how my TTC dollars R being spent ... "
> 
> Wieler was leaving the station when he saw the ticket agent catnapping in full view. "I stood by for at least five minutes and he was sleeping," said Wieler.
> 
> Some riders were laughing while others were talking about him, he said. A few even went through without paying their fare or showing their Metropass. "I thought here we are, with a fare hike, and look how the money is being wasted."
> 
> As soon as the photo was posted, the comments began piling up, mostly from annoyed transit users.
> 
> "I didn't post to get anyone in trouble, but to highlight TTC problems," said Wieler.
> 
> The TTC is taking it seriously, spokesman Brad Ross said.
> 
> "Employees have a responsibility with respect to safety of the station and the system," said Ross. "We expect them to be always alert on their jobs. This is unacceptable."
> 
> But he said there might have been extenuating circumstances.
> 
> "We are asking for an explanation."


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc...-of-mccowan-ttc-booth-goes-viral?bn=1#article


----------



## Skybean

> *We’re sorry, says the TTC
> ‘There’s a higher expectation today and the TTC needs to line up to that expectation’
> Published On Wed Jan 27 2010
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *A mishap on the Yonge line in November sent TTC passengers into the streets to line up for shuttle buses.
> DAVID COOPER/TORONTO STAR
> Tess Kalinowski
> Transportation Reporter*
> 
> Calling its recent crisis a “wake-up call” the TTC has announced a series of measures it says will raise the bar on customer service across the transit system.
> 
> The changes range from a rider “bill of rights” and new technology to communicate better with passengers, to customer service training for staff and even a review of their uniforms.
> 
> They’re meant to raise the bar on the transit system’s customer service after two months of consistently bad news for the TTC. A significant fare increase, a disastrous subway disruption, token shortages and highly publicized photos of sleeping employees have resulted in what TTC chief general manager Gary Webster called “a feeding frenzy” of criticism.
> 
> “There’s a higher expectation today and the TTC needs to line up to that expectation,” said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.
> 
> He also issued an apology for the “missteps of the last couple of months.”
> 
> Details of a previously announced advisory panel, including private sector customer service experts, won’t be available until next week, said Giambrone.
> 
> Meantime, he said, “I expect TTC staff will act quickly to restore the customers’ confidence.”
> 
> TTC chief general manager Gary Webster acknowledged that the technological changes cited at a city hall press conference Wednesday might be the easier part of the customer service equation.
> 
> “The most challenging part of our job is the people side. Some of the real challenges are the one-on-one interfaces of our employees,” he said.
> 
> Among the customer service improvements outlined Wednesday were:
> 
> • 50 new fare vending machines to make sure there’s alleviation from the monthly line-ups for passes across the system
> 
> • Improved customer assistance and more emergency transfers when there are major subway delays.
> 
> • Text messaging from all 800 streetcar stops by July to let riders know when the next couple of cars are expected to arrive
> 
> • Video screens at station entrances and collector booths with system status
> 
> • New microphones in the collector booths
> 
> • A 24/7 customer assistance and complaints line
> 
> • More TTC ambassadors at stations to help direct riders
> 
> • An overhaul of customer service training and performance evaluations for all 13,000 TTC employees.
> 
> The TTC received 31,532 complaints last year. The top two complaints were 5,513 for surface vehicle delays and 3,851 complaints about discourteous employees.


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc/article/756688--we-re-sorry-says-the-ttc


----------



## hkskyline

Workers' mindsets need to change. Is it so hard to understand such that you need to train people the fact you shouldn't sleep on the job and you face the customer with the least bit of courtesy?

These are the kinds of incidents that should prompt questions on why don't we privatize the workers. Holding them to private sector standards should force a major turnaround.


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## yin_yang

Former rider that has been walking/driving everywhere for the past two years. Why not privatize and subsidize? That is one thing I wouldn't mind Harper getting his nose into.


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## deasine

You think the TTC Union would let you? I don't think there is a need to privatize everything... even contracting out some of the services would be good enough.


----------



## Skybean

> *TTC driver’s coffee break caught on video*
> 
> Published On Wed Feb 03 2010
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tess Kalinowski Transportation reporter
> 
> Transit officials are investigating after a bus driver is caught on video spending seven minutes in a doughnut shop while his late-night riders wait.
> 
> The TTC is investigating and once again apologizing after an employee was caught on video taking a lengthy, unscheduled break.
> 
> Reuven Politi posted a dark, grainy video he shot Jan. 29 after being repeatedly delayed on the bus he takes up Bathurst St. on the way home from his job as a security guard in North York.
> 
> The 310 Blue Night bus usually stops at Finch and Bathurst at 2:46 a.m., where Politi gets on, and at Wilson Ave. the driver often leaves the bus, according to Politi.
> 
> The seven-minute video shows the driver exiting the bus and entering a doughnut shop, where he uses the restroom and then buys a drink. The bus is left idling, the door open. When a rider complains about the delay, the driver can be seen putting his finger to his lips in a gesture meant to silence her.
> 
> Politi said he only posted the video early Wednesday after politely asking the driver Tuesday night not to take his accustomed break when the bus was already 15 minutes late. According to Politi, the operator replied, “This is the 21st century, kid, not the ’60s; I can do whatever I want.”
> 
> Politi alleges that, after the driver again left riders shivering on the bus while he went into the doughnut shop, he confronted Politi on his return and dared him to complain. Politi said the operator gave his bus and badge numbers and told him that the union would protect his job. Politi alleges that the driver swore at him and noted that the video camera in the bus was recording the whole incident.
> 
> The TTC’s security images wouldn’t be used in an investigation of the driver because those cameras are only accessible by police and the operator’s conduct is an internal personnel matter, said TTC spokesman Brad Ross.
> 
> Like similar incidents, including recent photographs of subway collectors caught snoozing on the job, this one will be thoroughly investigated, he said, adding that he immediately brought the video to the attention of the TTC’s top executives.
> 
> “It is not acceptable for a TTC operator to leave passengers on a running bus to get a coffee,” he said. “Our operators and collectors are public servants. They deal directly with customers ... in the jobs they do. They need to think about the passenger who is waiting on the bus at 3 a.m. while they’re taking seven minutes to get a coffee.
> 
> “To those customers, we apologize. We have a lot of work to do here,” said Ross, adding that the TTC needs to bolster the supervision of frontline staff.
> 
> Politi, who moved to Toronto six months ago from Israel via Copenhagen, takes three buses to work each night, including one York Region Transit bus. Although he is irked by the driver’s regular unscheduled breaks on the 310, and can’t understand why TTC riders leave their buses so dirty, transit here is otherwise excellent, he said.
> 
> “It’s the best transportation. I can go on TTC to any place in Toronto.”


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/760176--ttc-driver-s-coffee-break-caught-on-video?bn=1


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## urbanfan89

I saw a subway driver read a novel while driving the train and leaving the door open. I got out my cellphone camera to record him but he noticed.

Too bad he noticed.


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## sumisu

I'm sure they're all looking out for big brother right now!


----------



## hkskyline

urbanfan89 said:


> I saw a subway driver read a novel while driving the train and leaving the door open. I got out my cellphone camera to record him but he noticed.
> 
> Too bad he noticed.


The driver has no authority to take the video from you. You can still report it and send it to the Star for a news item.


----------



## Skybean

> *TTC workers urged to fight back
> Facebook group hints at work-to-rule campaign
> 
> Brendan Kennedy and Adrian Morrow
> Staff Reporters*
> 
> Toronto transit workers—tired of the public-relations thrashing they have taken over the past few weeks from discontented riders—are showing signs they will fight back.
> *
> Rumours are swirling on the Internet of a potential work-to-rule campaign by TTC employees after a Facebook group was launched for transit operators to share “suggestions on how to fight back to the recent photo and video harassment from passengers just looking to make trouble for us.”*
> 
> The group, “Toronto Transit Operators against public harassment,” also encourages transit workers to post their own photos of passengers who break the rules.
> 
> The group’s membership is now restricted, but media reports over the weekend refer to a post made by a woman named Ruth at 8 p.m. Sunday, suggesting a possible work-to-rule campaign.
> 
> “Reminder to work to rule on Monday. Check out ATU site,” the post allegedly stated.
> 
> The Amalgamated Transit Union’s website has no information about any work-to-rule campaign, but parts of the site are restricted to members only.
> 
> The Facebook group was created after TTC management issued a terse memo to staff over the weekend, decrying the “complacency and malaise” within the organization and demanding that workers be held accountable when they demonstrate poor customer service.
> 
> In a statement to all staff, TTC chief general manager Gary Webster wrote that he is getting “increasingly tired of defending the reputation of the TTC; tired of explaining what is acceptable and what is not.”
> 
> Webster goes on to express his frustration that, two weeks after management demanded better customer service from front-line workers, the organization is still under fire for photos and videos showing TTC workers slacking off.
> 
> He says that expectations need to be clear and that customers deserve better for their fare.
> 
> The note to staff comes after a slew of customer complaints related to lacklustre performance by TTC workers, sparked by a video shot on a cellphone camera last month that showed a collector asleep in his booth at the McCowan subway station.
> 
> TTC spokesman Brad Ross the commission will no longer be commenting on such individual photos and videos, but Webster didn’t mince words in sharing his opinions with TTC staff.
> 
> “We are in the customer service business, but some of the behaviour our customers have encountered recently would suggest otherwise,” Webster wrote in his statement to staff. “Our customers pay a fare and the city provides hundreds of millions of dollars every year to the TTC. This public transit agency belongs to the very people we serve.
> 
> “As chief general manager, I am ultimately accountable to our customers. As employees, you – and you alone – are accountable for your actions,” he added.
> 
> “The culture of complacency and malaise that has seeped into our organization will end,” Webster vowed. “I hold all of management responsible to make this happen. Reviews and plans are under way to address systemic issues regarding customer service, but real change starts with you.


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/762105--ttc-workers-urged-to-fight-back?bn=1

When will the TTC operators learn that riders are not trying to "make trouble". They are trying to make trouble for themslves by sleeping on the job, taking breaks while on the job and being rude to the customer. If none of this is done, there is nothing to post to YouTube.




> *Behaviour 'unacceptable,' TTC manager tells employees
> 
> Letter comes after incident involving a driver who confronted passenger filming on bus
> 
> Toronto — The Canadian Press Published on Saturday, Feb. 06, 2010 11:08PM EST Last updated on Monday, Feb. 08, 2010 1:13AM EST*
> 
> The chief general manager of the Toronto Transit Commission has sent a second notice to all employees stating he is tired of “unacceptable behaviour” and a “culture of complacency.”
> *
> The letter comes after the latest incident involving a TTC driver who confronted a passenger shooting video on a cellphone.
> 
> CP24 reports the driver shut the bus down after the passenger refused to turn off his phone.
> *
> In the letter, Gary Webster says employees need to be accountable for their poor performance.
> 
> The TTC recently apologized to riders after a photograph surfaced of a subway collector caught napping on the job.
> 
> Another transit driver was suspended after video showed the driver taking an unauthorized break.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...e-ttc-manager-tells-employees/article1458997/


----------



## hkskyline

Work to rule to support inappropriate behaviour on the job?


----------



## Skybean

hkskyline said:


> Work to rule to support inappropriate behaviour on the job?


Yes, and honestly, it is difficult to tell if there has been work to rule imposed....even if it was, the level of service would be the same. :lol:



> *TTC work-to-rule pitch fizzles
> 
> Brendan Kennedy and Adrian Morrow
> Staff Reporters*
> 
> A work-to-rule campaign proposed by some TTC workers appears to have fizzled, but the city’s transit union says its members remain frustrated at “having to work under the microscope.”
> 
> *“We’ve got 13 and 14-year-olds that feel that they have an entitlement to film our operators in the performance of their duties, and that’s not acceptable,” said Bob Kinnear, president of the Amalgamated Transit Union Local 113, which represents Toronto’s transit workers.
> *
> Rumours of a TTC work-to-rule campaign started Sunday with posts made on a Facebook group after a stern memo from TTC management criticized the “culture of complacency and malaise” in the organization.
> 
> The note to staff came after a slew of customer complaints related to lacklustre performance by TTC workers, sparked by a photo shot on a cellphone camera last month that showed a collector asleep in his booth at the McCowan subway station.
> 
> Adding to the beleaguered transit system’s troubles, a bus driver was suspended indefinitely last week, pending an internal investigation, after a YouTube video shot by a frustrated rider showed the man taking a seven-minute coffee and washroom break while driving the 310 Blue Night bus south on Bathurst.
> 
> The TTC says it ran “problem-free” Monday morning, and there were no reports of any employees “working to rule.”
> 
> Kinnear said the call for working to rule was not initiated by the union, but by individual members who are frustrated by how they are being treated by TTC management and the public.
> 
> He said he had not heard of any specific work-to-rule actions occurring Monday.
> 
> The Facebook group, “Toronto Transit Operators against public harassment,” was formed to give TTC workers the opportunity to share “suggestions on how to fight back to the recent photo and video harassment from passengers just looking to make trouble for us,” according to its description. It also encourages transit workers to post their own photos of passengers who break the rules.
> 
> “Reminder to work to rule on Monday. Check out ATU site,” stated a post on the group’s wall, according to media reports.
> 
> The Amalgamated Transit Union’s Toronto website had no information about any work-to-rule campaign, but parts of the site are restricted to members only.
> 
> The Facebook group was created after TTC chief general manager Gary Webster sent a terse memo to staff over the weekend, demanding that workers be held accountable when they demonstrate poor customer service.
> 
> In a statement to all staff, Webster wrote that he is getting “increasingly tired of defending the reputation of the TTC; tired of explaining what is acceptable and what is not.”
> 
> Webster goes on to express his frustration that, two weeks after management demanded better customer service from front-line workers, the organization is still under fire for photos and videos showing TTC workers slacking off.
> 
> He says that expectations need to be clear and that customers deserve better for their fare.
> 
> “We are in the customer service business, but some of the behaviour our customers have encountered recently would suggest otherwise,” Webster wrote. “Our customers pay a fare and the city provides hundreds of millions of dollars every year to the TTC. This public transit agency belongs to the very people we serve.
> 
> “As chief general manager, I am ultimately accountable to our customers. As employees, you – and you alone – are accountable for your actions,” he added.
> 
> “The culture of complacency and malaise that has seeped into our organization will end,” Webster vowed. “I hold all of management responsible to make this happen. Reviews and plans are under way to address systemic issues regarding customer service, but real change starts with you.
> 
> Kinnear said Webster’s memo makes it appear as if “he has given up.”
> 
> “He seems to be putting all the problems and all the ills of the TTC on the backs of the frontline employees, when that’s just not reflective of what’s going on out there,” Kinnear said.
> 
> He added that Webster has a responsibility to defend the TTC.
> 
> “We do recognize that improvements have to be made, but for the (chief general manager) to simply put the onus on the frontline employees is irresponsible as far as we’re concerned.”
> 
> Kinnear said the union will be holding a news conference Tuesday morning, but he would not elaborate on the details.


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/762105--ttc-work-to-rule-pitch-fizzles?bn=1#article


----------



## sumisu

Wrong Skybean, if work to rule were imposed, there would be an improvement in service!


----------



## Skybean

sumisu said:


> Wrong Skybean, if work to rule were imposed, there would be an improvement in service!



I suppose there would be less sleeping on the job... finally TTC operators would get to work


----------



## trainrover

^^ maybe the staff's acquired that syndrome that causes sufferers to involuntarily fall asleep sometime since the day he was hired.....ain't it puzzling how that was even remotely newsworthy?


----------



## WrightTurn

KGB said:


> I wouldn't "slag" you over it...I just think it's a bad analogy to use for the city at large. New York's subway system is a hell of a lot worse.
> KGB


Do you mean aesthetically or in terms of providing service?


----------



## Skybean

> *TTC learning from Philly's transit revival
> U.S. city offers lessons on how to turn around a system plagued with problems, rider complaints
> 
> Published On Fri Mar 05 2010
> 
> Tess Kalinowski Transportation Reporter*
> 
> Complaints about old-fashioned tokens, dirty stations and surly service aren't unique to the TTC.
> 
> Officials at Philadelphia's SEPTA (Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority) system were hearing them long before Torontonians began publishing pictures of sleeping subway collectors.
> 
> But when Joe Casey became general manager of SEPTA two years ago, he decided it was time riders knew their gripes had been heard by those at the top of the system, which includes regional rail similar to GO Transit, as well as buses, trolleys and a subway.
> 
> Casey's innovations – from making information kiosks more visible in stations to creating "quiet cars" on the regional rail – have transformed some of SEPTA's harshest critics into constructive allies.
> 
> "Communication, cleanliness, convenience and courtesy – those were the areas that our customers ranked us as lower in our customer surveys," he said.
> 
> Toronto officials, plagued with similar complaints, have been in touch with Philadelphia in their search for solutions, said Gary Webster, the TTC's chief general manager.
> 
> To transform SEPTA's culture, Casey named a general manager of customer service, Kim Heinle, who has a background in the hospitality industry. They introduced weekly classes in customer service for transit workers.
> 
> The system still gets just as many complaints – and Casey admits it's hard to gauge the success of that program. But on the other side of the equation, in two years, customer commendations have doubled.
> 
> SEPTA tries to follow up with customers on complaints and compliments within two days. Employees receive gift cards as rewards for good service. Managers also regularly visit train and bus stations to survey customer satisfaction.
> 
> Administrators assist on the front lines during service disruptions, and everyone's job review has a customer-service performance goal. Even retirees have been tapped to help assist riders at major community events.
> 
> SEPTA is also introducing some of the technology the TTC is trying to expedite in the wake of its recent troubles, including next-bus-arrival notifications. A proposal for a smart fare card is expected to roll out in the spring.
> 
> "Joe (Casey) is a commuter. He's ridden the railroad for years so he sees the system from a commuter's perspective," said Matthew Mitchell of the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers. The group, which lobbies for transit funding and accessible service, used to have a more adversarial relationship with SEPTA.
> 
> Although the group is still critical, Mitchell says, "We don't have to make a public stink about things to get action."
> 
> When he got the job, Casey said he was going to clean up the system. Before a single cleaner had been deployed, people were congratulating him on the improvement.
> 
> "We had a negative image before I took over," he said. "That's slowly changing, but a lot of it is image."


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc/article/775339--ttc-learning-from-philly-s-transit-revival?bn=1


----------



## Skybean

> *TTC paid executive's friend $50,000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin Donovan Staff Reporter*
> A senior Toronto Transit Commission official helped his long-time female friend – an amateur photographer – get a plum contract taking photos of public meetings and proposed building sites.
> 
> Project manager John Cursio recommended Robin Thoen for the job, then personally approved payments of public money to her totalling at least $50,000 over the past year. One of Cursio's grown children worked part-time for Thoen editing photos during this period.
> *
> The TTC said Cursio is in a conflict of interest and never should have recommended Thoen for the work. Senior transit officials are investigating. Though Thoen received payments, there is no contract setting out the terms of the job.*
> 
> Cursio has been off work since the Star raised these matters with him and the TTC just over a week ago.
> 
> "That's a personal matter," Cursio said when asked by the Star about his relationship with Thoen and payments of public money to her. "You do what you have to do," Cursio said, before recommending the Star contact TTC public relations.
> 
> Thoen has not responded to questions about her contract or the relationship with Cursio. As to the photo contract, she told the Star she has no idea what the pictures are used for. "I don't know what they do with the photos," Thoen said.
> 
> "I go to the sites. They want before and after shots. I am sorry, I really don't have much information on this."
> 
> Cursio, who is married and lives in Etobicoke, has allegedly lived a double life for years, according to people who have socialized with him. They said Cursio participated in many discussions about renovation plans at Thoen's former East York residence and frequently hosted social occasions with her. The people who have socialized with him work in contracting jobs and fear they would lose government contracts if they spoke on the record.
> 
> Cursio is a veteran civil servant, who has been with the TTC since the spring of 2008. Prior to that he was at the Ontario Realty Corporation, a Crown agency that owns and manages Ontario government property. He met Thoen in the early 2000s and the two struck up a relationship.
> 
> The relationship was an open secret among some contractors and ORC officials. In 2004 Thoen purchased a home on Dunkirk Rd. in East York for $230,000 and Cursio often stayed there. Cursio and Thoen frequently entertained contractors at the home. During this time he helped Thoen plan the renovation of the home, which Thoen sold in 2008 for $705,000. She then purchased a house in Etobicoke for $710,000 on a quiet court, just over one kilometre from Cursio's matrimonial home.
> 
> *At the TTC, Cursio is the project manager overseeing part of the ambitious new Transit City project to build eight new Light Rail Transit (LRT) lines to neighbourhoods not served by rapid public transit. His main responsibility is managing the design and construction of three massive "carhouses" to maintain and store new LRT vehicles.*
> 
> As a senior official with Transit City, Cursio is supposed to sign a "conflict of interest declaration," which he and other officials are reminded of every few months by email. TTC spokesman Brad Ross said he cannot say for certain that Cursio signed the document.
> 
> The policy asks senior staff to declare any association they have with consultants or contractors who will receive payments of public money, not sign any invoices or cheques, and remove themselves from the conflict, said Ross.
> 
> In 2008, the TTC issued a tender call looking for a technical consulting company to design the carhouses. Cursio played a key role in evaluating bids for the project, which was awarded in December 2008 to design company AECOM Canada. AECOM will be paid about $8 million to plan the carhouses, and Cursio as project manager is one of three people who approves payments to subcontractors hired by AECOM.
> 
> Shortly after AECOM won the bid, Cursio was at a meeting with AECOM officials. Cursio told AECOM that "we need professional photography" on this project, said TTC spokesman Ross. The bid documents provided by AECOM do not list photography as work they are to do for the TTC.
> 
> According to Ross, AECOM officials at the meeting asked if Cursio had a recommendation. Cursio recommended West Point Photography.
> 
> Ontario records show that West Point Photography was only a few months old at the time, incorporated in August 2008, based out of Thoen's new home in Etobicoke. On her website, Thoen features numerous photographs of what she describes as "creative studies." Among the photos: dogs, shells in water, "water birds," and an orchid.
> 
> "Robin's creative photography is an eclectic array of focus that include abstract works, portraitures and studio art," her website states. A second section of the website describes her experience in construction photography. "Tracking the progress of construction projects is a specialty that West Point Photography has pursued for over many years," the website states, describing the fledgling company.
> 
> The TTC's Ross, who has been looking into the allegations of conflict of interest, said there is no written contract between AECOM and West Point. He said that between May 2009 and the present, Cursio approved payments to West Point of at least $50,000.
> 
> Thoen has taken photos of potential construction sites and streetscapes and also has photographed ratepayers at public meetings the TTC has held. At one recent meeting, over the proposed site near Lake Shore Blvd. and Leslie St., Cursio and Thoen were present and residents and community journalists who attended say Thoen took numerous pictures of residents critical of the TTC plans.
> 
> "A lot of people were concerned about the photographer," said Leslieville resident Caron Court, who attended the meeting to object to the plan that will have the rail line running close to her home. "We did not understand why she was taking our picture." Court said she argued with Cursio at the meeting, and described him as "rude and arrogant."
> 
> AECOM would not discuss the matter with the Star. In a written statement, communications manager Laura Soucek said AECOM "is not aware of any association between Mr. Cursio and West Point Photography."
> 
> Soucek said West Point was selected "after following a thorough assessment and evaluation process" and AECOM did not feel it was under "any obligation to use" the company. The Star pointed out West Point's slim resumé and AECOM's Soucek then said "we undertook what we believed to be an appropriate level of due diligence prior to retaining West Point."
> 
> When the Star first approached Cursio last week, he said, "West Point is doing a contract for us through AECOM" and would not answer further questions. The Star informed him it was investigating allegations of conflict of interest.
> 
> Next, the Star contacted the TTC and asked if officials there were aware of the Cursio-Thoen connection.
> 
> TTC officials, including a lawyer, met with Cursio, who denied any connection with Thoen, but did say they "have had lunch," Ross said.
> 
> After the Star did further research, and posed numerous questions to Cursio through the TTC, Cursio's story changed a bit.
> 
> "He has had coffee in her home," said Ross, after speaking with Cursio. Ross said Cursio also said, after being asked about his children working for Thoen, that his daughter had worked for her over a summer period.
> 
> Ross said Cursio had also recently tried to get Thoen a full-time job as a community liaison for the TTC, but hiring officials did not select her.
> 
> "We have told Mr. Cursio that this conflict should have been declared" and he should not have signed any documents relating to the West Point payments.
> 
> Cursio has now told his boss at the TTC that he will not answer any more questions.
> 
> "We are looking at all invoices from West Point now and we want to make sure (the TTC) got value for its money," Ross said.


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc/article/776171--ttc-paid-executive-s-friend-50-000?bn=1


----------



## hkskyline

Time to get the auditor general in there!


----------



## allurban

hkskyline said:


> Time to get the auditor general in there!


He got fired and the photographer was told that her services were no longer needed.

Cheers, m


----------



## Skybean

> *TTC listens as riders vent
> ‘Operators do slack off a lot,’ TTC employee says
> Published On Sun Apr 11 2010*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Tess Kalinowski Transportation Reporter
> *
> Anger brought them together.
> 
> But when the TTC's union met face-to-face with riders at a town hall Sunday, there were few signs of the animosity that badly strained riders' relationship with frontline transit workers a couple of months back.
> 
> The first of three meetings organized by the transit workers' union proved that “the frustration we've been hearing about over the last few months isn't necessarily directed only at the frontline employees,” said Bob Kinnear, president of Local 113 of the Amalgamated Transit Union.
> 
> “Yes there have been disappointing incidences, which the union does not condone in any way. But I think there's been some clarity that it's the underlying issues with service and lack thereof that more important issues,” he said.
> 
> The meetings were organized when anger at transit workers boiled over earlier this year. Already annoyed by a fare hike and token shortages, riders were outraged by published photos of a sleeping subway collector and video of a bus driver taking an unauthorized coffee break.
> 
> The 480-seat auditorium at Downsview Secondary School was more than half full as riders waited turns at the microphone to ask about why buses and streetcars don't arrive on schedule and why, after a long wait, they turn up in bunches.
> 
> They wanted to know:
> 
> • Who ordered new buses with a step up to the back so that strollers block access to the rear?
> 
> • Why doesn't the TTC order people to take off bulky backpacks?
> 
> • Why don't fare vending machines work?
> 
> • And why do buses seem to pull away when drivers can see someone running toward them?
> 
> The union spokespeople on the panel moderated by talk radio host John Tory, were apologetic.
> 
> The normally defiant Kinnear, who had earlier this year warned riders against abusing drivers and threatening to take transit workers' pictures, acknowledged that his members had a role to play in the customer service crisis.
> 
> He started the meeting by recalling his own frustration as a subway collector when a rider seeking directions couldn't understand what he was being told through the speaker.
> 
> Kinnear said he opened the door to his booth and pointed to a sign.
> 
> “Can't you read?” he asked the rider.
> 
> Kinnear said he's never forgotten the customer's apology because he couldn't read.
> 
> “We can take some responsibility for the dissatisfaction of frontline customer service,” he conceded.
> *
> “Operators do slack off a lot,” driver John Bethune told the audience, later stressing, “I didn't say anything that wasn't true.”*
> 
> “TTC management need to go back to train us so we can do the job properly,” panelist and driver Anthony Wallace said after the meeting. “We need to make sure we serve the public to the best of our ability.”
> 
> While riders praised the union for organizing the meeting, several said they were frustrated because TTC management wasn't allowed to respond to many of the broader queries.
> 
> “It would have been a more productive meeting,” said Wilson bus rider Claudette Passby.
> 
> “The union leader is good at taking responsibility. But the union leader is not the one who should be up on the stage,” she said.
> 
> “I was looking for more about why more funding is not put into (the TTC), and why we don't have a better fare system,” said Carrie McLean, whose brother is a TTC worker.
> *
> She says the TTC's old-fashioned fare system should be replaced by the kind of smartcards available on other major transit systems such as London and Hong Kong.*
> 
> “It was a waste of time for me to come. Management should have been up there because there's a big problem,” said McLean.
> 
> But Tory Moote, who attended the town hall with two friends from York University, said the threesome plan to go to the other meetings scheduled in the coming weeks because they want to hear more discussion of broader issues such as transit funding.
> 
> “We're angry and we want to ride the TTC. We don't want to drive,” said Alex, who didn't want her last name used. “These are all on the periphery of what's going on. Where's our money going? Why are a third of TTC employees being paid over $100,000?”
> 
> Senior TTC officials were on hand, however, to listen to rider comments.
> 
> The information will be considered along with other customer service initiatives underway at the TTC, including an expert panel that will be making recommendations for improvements in June, said chief general manager Gary Webster.
> 
> The public will have an opportunity to ask managers questions later, said Giambrone.
> 
> “What's exciting is you're beginning that dialogue,” he said. “It was frustrating for me because there were some answers I was wanting to give and talk about. There's some questions that might be better answered by TTC management and the commission. The customer service panel will be making an announcement over the coming weeks about their own customer engagement.”
> 
> But those events will not be in competition with the union-sponsored meetings, he said.
> 
> Prior to Sunday's event Kinnear said that he didn't know how many people to expect. The cafeteria next to the auditorium had been opened up with fruit and beverages prepared for those who might have to watch the meeting on monitors. But in the end, only a few TTC workers sat and watched there and the refreshments were packed away.
> 
> The session did, however, run overtime, with Tory allowing questions to continue for more than 30 minutes after a cable broadcast was scheduled to end.
> 
> Another town hall takes place on Sunday in Scarborough and in May 2 at Ryerson University. Information and other queries and comments can be directed to the union's website at wemovetoronto.ca.





> *
> Audience nuggets:*
> 
> Riders who attended the transit workers' union open house Sunday at Downsview Secondary School were equipped with clickers so the audience could be immediately polled on transit concerns.
> 
> *Among the results:*
> 
> • 32 per cent said their commute required riding on three TTC vehicles;
> 
> • 31 per cent said they had regularly seen avoidable cases of poor customer service by frontline transit workers in the last two or three years;
> 
> • 31 per cent said they had occasionally seen poor customer service within the last two or three years;
> *
> • 95 per cent answered “yes” when asked if TTC technology is out of date;*
> 
> • 60 per cent answered “yes” when asked if they had experienced problems such as broken vending machines on the TTC;
> 
> • 75 per cent said they had seen TTC employees being threated or abused;
> 
> • 44 per cent said they strongly agree or agree with paying tolls or other taxes if the money was devoted to improving transit; 42 per cent disagreed or strongly disagreed;
> 
> • 63 per cent agreed or strongly agreed that there is a problem with the way strollers are handled on the TTC;
> 
> • 59 per cent said they were frustrated by bunching of buses and streetcars;
> 
> • 42 per cent of the audience said they were regular TTC users.


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc/article/793630--ttc-listens-as-riders-vent?bn=1


----------



## Skybean

> *TTC driver charged after passenger assaulted, police say
> 
> Incident on bus near Bayview and Lawrence happened at 10:45 a.m., police say
> 
> Richard Blackwell
> 
> Globe and Mail Update Published on Wednesday, Apr. 14, 2010 12:16PM EDT Last updated on Wednesday, Apr. 14, 2010 2:15PM EDT*
> 
> Toronto police have charged a TTC bus driver with assault, after an incident involving a dust-up with a passenger near Bayview and Lawrence.
> 
> Constable Wendy Drummond said the incident happened at about 10:45 a.m. when the driver and the passenger allegedly got into a verbal dispute.
> 
> An eighteen year-old student got onto the bus, she said, and got into an argument with the driver over the fare.
> 
> “During that dispute the driver is alleged to have assaulted the patron,” she said. “The assault actually caused one of the windows on the bus to break.”
> 
> The student received some injuries, but these were not life-threatening, she said.
> 
> The 30-year-old driver, Hagos Bereket, has been charged with assault. He will be released after processing and will appear in court at a later date to face the charges, Const. Drummond said.
> 
> TTC spokesman Brad Ross said the video recording from the camera on the bus is being downloaded so it can be sent to the police.
> 
> Mr. Ross said he had no details of the incident, but when this kind of dispute takes place there is a protocol where TTC supervisors are called and the police are dispatched. “Operators ... are not to engage in physical altercations with customers,” he said.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...assenger-assaulted-police-say/article1534321/


----------



## Skybean

> *Louder crowd, a call for Giambrone's head at TTC town hall
> Published 46 minutes ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TTC Chair Adam Giambrone reflects as transit rider Mai Cheng, 72, demands his resignation at a town hall meeting Sunday. The meeting was the second of three sessions sponsored by the transit union to hear from riders. *
> 
> Tess Kalinowski Transportation Reporter
> 
> Their numbers were similar to last week’s transit workers union town hall designed to foster better relations between frontline TTC workers and riders, but Sunday’s crowd of about 200 transit riders at a Scarborough high school were more vocal and more confrontational.
> 
> Although there were some questions about how the transit system works — or doesn’t work — riders were focused this week on the behaviour of transit workers rather than individual bus routes or personal issues with the TTC.
> 
> Those who attended the second in the series of union-organized meetings at Stephen Leacock Collegiate Institute wanted to know why some drivers and collectors behave rudely, take breaks while passengers sit on the bus, apply some of the rules inconsistently and why the system is so dirty.
> 
> Several objected loudly to the format of the meeting.
> 
> “Throughout this meeting your answers have been taking over our questions,” said Ryan Endoh, who came with a prepared statement complaining about the “profane language” and “gross indifference” he had experienced on the system.
> 
> Questions and comments from the audience were confined to a minute, while panelists and TTC union head Bob Kinnear were taking four minutes to respond, he said.
> 
> Endoh told the auditorium about being verbally assaulted by a transit worker when he tried once to explain that he didn’t have his student pass because he had been ill and taken to the hospital.
> 
> For the second week, the panel of TTC drivers on the stage, were quick to apologize for the rude behaviour of some of their co-workers.
> 
> Nine out of 10 times when a passenger pleasantly explains they haven’t got the correct fare, driver Laverne Snagg said she lets the person on without argument.
> 
> She encouraged riders to note the bus number, the route and time and complain to the TTC when they encounter similar situations.
> 
> “We are reprimanded. It is normally addressed,” she said.
> 
> “Are drivers allowed extended breaks when there are people on board?” said Venesse Lewis, who compared rider frustration in such incidents to the bus arriving 20 minutes late.
> 
> She too was frustrated by the format of the two-hour meeting in which only people whose names were drawn from a box by the meeting moderator were allowed to speak.
> 
> “I wish more people were able to say things,” said Lewis.
> 
> York University graduate student Leia Toledo wanted to know if drivers have access to anger management.
> 
> They do but everybody has bad days, she was told.
> 
> After the meeting, Toledo said the exercise was valuable but riders have to demand a follow-up meeting with a report on what’s changed on the TTC.
> 
> Last week a TTC driver was charged following a dispute with a passenger over an allegedly unpaid fare.
> 
> While several speakers thanked the union for the opportunity to gather, one woman complained that it should have been organized by TTC management.
> 
> She drew applause for calling for the firing of TTC chair Adam Giambrone, who was sitting nearby.
> 
> Although he maintained a cordial approach to riders in the room, union president Bob Kinnear used the meeting to take some shots at TTC management, saying that an automated signalling system on the subway is responsible for large overtime bills.
> 
> A recent proposal to install platform edge doors that would prevent people from jumping or falling on the tracks is more about justifying the signal system, said Kinnear.
> 
> “Overtime rates have gone through the roof because trains are late. Operators are forced to go beyond their schedules every day,” he said, noting when that happens the worker gets double time.
> 
> “Maybe next time we’ll have to negotiate triple time,” he said.
> 
> TTC chief general manager Gary Webster, who was in the audience, later denied that the signalling system called speed control was responsible for climbing overtime.
> 
> “(Speed control) has been in operation on the Sheppard line. It’s not working properly. We have not put it in place on the other two lines. There’s no question we’ve struggled with the reliability of speed control and we’re not going to work it until we can get it to run properly,” said Webster.
> 
> But that has no bearing on the new automatic train control signalling system being installed on the Yonge line in the next four or five years, he said.
> 
> In the morning rush hour, the Yonge subway is at capacity, said Webster. “Automatic train control will deal with that,” and new subway trains coming later this year will also help.
> 
> Speed control, which cost about $15 million, was introduced on Sheppard in the last two years. Automatic train control is a $300 million system.
> 
> One rider complained about a driver’s failure to take a valid transfer when it was proffered.
> 
> “I don’t touch the transfers either,” said Jeff Gill, a driver on the union panel. “You see people coming up the steps with the transfer in their mouth. I don’t want that in my hand. There are too many communicable diseases.”
> 
> Some complained that not all drivers and collectors required seniors and students to show their passes.
> 
> “There are major inconsistencies out there with the enforcement of fares because it’s a judgement call (by individual transit workers),” said Kinnear.
> 
> When one rider complained that TTC patrons have to pay to park at stations, while GO passengers park for free, Kinnear suggested that the parking fees introduced last year are an attempt to penalize commuters from the 905 communities around Toronto.
> 
> “There needs to be a recognition that people are utilizing our service — the cost is absorbed solely by Torontonians,” he said.
> 
> A third town hall takes place May 2 in Etobicoke. Details and an opportunity to comment are available on the union’s website, wemovetoronto.ca.
> 
> Meantime, the TTC’s external panel of customer service experts is also hosting a series of meet-and-greet sessions in the subway system starting later this months in advance of the recommendations it will be delivering to improve customer satisfaction.
> 
> The outreach efforts by the union and the commission follow a rash of bad publicity on the system that started with the announcement of a fare hike late last year. That was followed by token hoarding and shortages and then widespread images of a sleeping subway collector and video of a driver taking an unauthorized break while riders cooled their heels on the bus.
> 
> “There’s a latent demand,” said Webster. “The public wants to talk to us. Management, union, we all need to get out and engage the public more.”





> *Quick Fax
> *
> An electronic audience response system in the transit union town hall, allows organizers to almost instantly guage riders’ concerns. Here are some of the results from Sunday’s meeting.
> 
> • 49 per cent of the audience were regular TTC users, with an additional 11 per cent using the TTC to get to school
> 
> • 49 per cent of the audience at the Stephen Leacock Collegiate meeting took the TTC to get there
> 
> • 41 per cent of those at the meeting use two TTC vehicles and 23 per cent used three in their normal commute
> 
> • 66 per cent said they had used another transit system in the last couple of years and 54 per cent of those riders said the other system was better than the TTC
> 
> • 53 per cent of riders at th meeting said they have seen cases of unsatisfactory customer service by transit workers that was avoidable in the last two or three years on the TTC
> 
> • 65 per cent of the audience said their jobs require them to interact face-to-face with the public
> 
> • 37 per cent of the riders said drivers should always enforce fare payment and 57 per cent said enforcement should be based on individual circumstances
> 
> • 62 per cent said the operators should be allowed to decide whether to allow an adult to ride the TTC if they haven’t paid the correct fare
> 
> • 57 per cent said food and drink should be banned on the TTC


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc...ll-for-giambrone-s-head-at-ttc-town-hall?bn=1


----------



## Skybean

While I have seen drivers taking unscheduled coffee breaks, there are also many very good drivers. Today, the driver of the bus I was on helped look for a lost wallet and assisted a tourist couple who didn't know how to go to their destination. I think the bigger concern is the overall (lack of) maintenance of stations. Frequently I have seen escalators down for months, drifting garbage causing fire on the tracks and leaking stations. 



> *TTC commuters can't stand rude, crude staff
> Published On Mon Apr 19 2010
> 
> Robyn Doolittle Urban Affairs Bureau*
> 
> A driver who refuses to move the bus because a baby is crying on board. A streetcar operator referred to by at least one rider as the “Blonde Dragon.” A toll collector who calls a customer “brain dead” when asked for change.
> 
> On Monday, the TTC released hundreds of customer complaints to the Star through a freedom of information request.
> 
> Page after page, the stories are similar: Drivers throwing tantrums when people don’t shuffle to the back fast enough. Collectors doing crosswords while ignoring customer questions. Drivers shouting at riders and swearing at passing cars.
> 
> It seems poor people skills, not delays or fare disputes, are the main concern for transit customers.
> 
> Riders say they are verbally abused and harassed by TTC staff on a daily basis. In the most extreme of allegations, some claim to have been victims of sexual advances and racism.
> 
> The vast majority of the more than 300 written complaints obtained by the Star — among more than 2,000 lodged last year — paint a picture of a transit system troubled by a culture of indifference and disdain towards customers.
> 
> “In my honest opinion, I believe those issues happen. I have no doubt,” said Steven O’Brien, the hotelier tasked with rescuing the TTC’s reputation through a recently created customer service advisory panel. “I’m not condoning the behaviour. (For some) it’s the culture. And you can’t change culture overnight.”
> 
> But the TTC is banking on his ability to help change it eventually.
> 
> In February, O’Brien was named chair of the new panel, an initiative meant to defuse mounting tensions between the public and its transit system.
> 
> Things came to a head in January, two months after the TTC announced a 25-cent fare hike, when a photo of a fare collector sleeping on the job went viral. “Yup, love how my TTC dollars R being spent” said the Twitpic caption. Next, a video surfaced of a bus driver who left late-night riders twiddling their thumbs while he took an unauthorized break at a coffee shop to use the washroom, then buy a drink.
> 
> Over the past two weeks, hundreds of riders have shown up at union-sponsored town hall meetings to vent their frustrations. And by the end of June, O’Brien’s independent panel hopes to release a comprehensive customer relations evaluation.
> 
> The system needs it.
> 
> Last year, the TTC received roughly 2,000 written complaints through traditional mail, email, and online complaint forms. The Star requested a sample of these letters from February, July and October. The majority, about 250 of the 312 complaints we received, were submitted online.
> 
> The identities of the riders and employees were protected and, for privacy reasons, the TTC said it cannot disclose what action, if any, came of the individual grievances.
> 
> “This morning,” one letter began, “I boarded the #113 bus at Corvet ... At the next stop … another bus was parked with a flashing light. Riders who were on that bus got on to our bus all complaining that they were waiting 20 minutes because the driver refused to move the bus as a baby on board was crying ...
> 
> “Passengers continued to vent about the situation on the last bus. At the next stop our operator asked the passengers who came on at the last stop and were discussing the crying baby issue to please leave the bus … It seemed that no one had a right to condemn his colleague in his presence.”
> 
> In another letter, a rider writes: “On several occasions I have had the misfortune of boarding (the streetcar) only to realize that the driver for the first leg of my journey to work is this miserable woman . . . (I have) witnessed her verbally kick a paying passenger off this eastbound route . . . for calling her rude, which she IS consistently.”
> 
> On this January morning, the rider continues, “I became the target of her vileness … I always try to be courteous and exit via the rear doors (but) my position on the car this morning had me directly beside the front door, so I decided to exit via this way instead of pushing my way through other passengers. Well I guess this made her day because it allowed her the opportunity to yell … she yelled at the top of her lungs four times ... “EXIT AT THE REAR DOOOOORS!!! …
> *
> “I turned around and calmly asked her, “Why are you such a bitch to the passengers?” Her loud reply: BECAUSE I ENJOY IT!!!* ... I do have to say that the majority of the TTC employees I encounter on a daily basis are courteous and a good number of them are downright friendly. What a delight! But not the Blonde Dragon!”
> 
> TTC spokesperson Brad Ross said whenever there is identifiable information, such as specific incident times, route and bus numbers, or employee badge numbers, the complaints are investigated.
> 
> A range of responses is available, from a verbal warning to a note in a personnel file or even suspension.
> 
> “Just remember there are two sides to every story,” said Ross. “Certainly we don’t condone rudeness or curtness. Certainly our expectation is that employees greet customers with a smile, and thank them for their fare. (But remember), not every customer is polite, either.”


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc/article/797775--ttc-commuters-can-t-stand-rude-crude-staff


----------



## Ni3lS

Wow.. Staff problems?


----------



## isaidso

I believe it's the Eglinton crosstown that will use narrower gauge.


----------



## IrishMan2010

New subways look great, have any of you guys been on one yet?


----------



## allurban

isaidso said:


> I'll do it for $400,000. Seriously, the TTC has completely lost it. First changing the gauge width so now there are 2 different systems, then blowing money on ads to tell the public about new trains you can see by just getting on one, and now this. Why not a normal pay scale like $45,000 each year?


Scarborough RT also runs on a different gauge (1435mm) from the standard TTC gauge (1495mm) that used on subway trains & streetcars. And the SRT is almost 30 years old.

Oh, and the TTC's original plan was to build a network of suburban streetcars using TTC gauge (1495mm). Then the Ontario Government led by Bill Davis came in and said "if you build it using our special brand-spankin new technology we will pay for the entire line"

So blame the Ontario Government ... for something that happened 30 years ago ... instead of blaming the TTC now.

Oh, and the reason why Transit City lines were going for Standard (1435mm) gauge is because the lines are separate from the remainder of the TTC system. 

It also is because Metrolinx (and agency of the Province of Ontario) is paying for the lines and wanted to get the greatest number of choices and lowest available cost.

Funny how history repeats itself. But this time instead of pushing their own proprietary transit system the Ontario Government is pushing for more competition in the selection of the LRVs. 

And still people complain.

Cheers, m


----------



## hkskyline

*Mallick: TTC fare hike like poison for the poor*
Published On Sun Aug 21 2011
Toronto Star

The experience of taking the subway downtown — normally a zippy 20 minutes, if that — has noticeably changed in the past year.

The trains stop, inexplicably. Then they give a metaphorical sigh and start up again. Fuzzy announcements drone on about the Spadina line closing south of Eglinton West, but TTC buses are waiting at the station. Lines are regularly closed for maintenance at times that are inconvenient for passengers but the TTC seems to feel it a matter of urgency.

The TTC is not in good health, and this is visible each day. What Torontonians endure is more telling than consultants’ reports about cheaper modes of people transport and Mayor Rob Ford’s incoherent plans for more subways even though the system we already have isn’t being sufficiently fed and watered. Our watchword is “cheap.”

Streetcar advocate Steve Munro says on his blog that this won’t do. And he’s right, as he often is, but I can’t agree with his proposal to raise fares.

“There’s no point in soaking up new subsidies with fare freezes,” he writes. “Just as Toronto creates headaches for itself with tax freezes and forgone revenue, the TTC is hurt by the absence of small, regular fare increases to cover, at least in part, its increasing costs.”

But what is a small, regular fare increase? It depends on who you are. If you’re poor, you probably can’t afford the TTC at all. If you work a minimum wage job, no increase is small. You factor an extra dime into your survival sums, gasp, and recalculate.

Two dimes a day at least five times a week adds up to a dollar you don’t have. It’s hard for many to imagine that. But when I look around the subway car, I see people who barely made it on. I see people shocked and distressed when they can’t conjure up the cash to get on the streetcar.

These scenes happen daily. Put yourself in another person’s worn shoes, a person who doesn’t have an extra dollar. Students and the elderly get help with TTC fares. But people who don’t have the money get no help at all.

The TTC is the bloodstream of this city. Using it keeps pollution down and the clogged streets less hateful than they might be. It gets us to work, it makes us look at our fellow citizens (though not straight in the eye, if we’re being polite about it) and rub shoulders with them. There is nothing about the TTC that is not socially useful and practical.

Raising fares rather than subsidizing them is a false economy that does great harm. For the TTC shouldn’t raise fares, it should abolish them.

It shouldn’t have to make a profit or break even, because it justifies its existence in ways that go far beyond money. And that’s the problem: when you provide a social good, it’s very often in ways that are not visible or easily quantifiable.

On the TTC, students from poverty-stricken or violent neighbourhoods can escape to a good school in minutes. You can lose your loneliness in a distant suburb and head to Dundas Square. You can get to a farmer’s market outside your area and pack a better lunch for your children. You can make it home safely late at night when you’re in a terrible state, thanking the city for the Vomit Comet.

You can escape your life, or race back to it, in a way that is nobody’s business and costs the planet almost nothing. You see your city as a unit, each part of it offering a welcome to strangers. You are no longer lonely in your own city.

I buy 10 tokens for $25, but the single fare is $3. When you’re poor, you don’t have $25 to hand. So you’re already paying six bucks a day to get to your job and the experts are suggesting a “small, regular” fare increase.

Suggestions that seem superficially rational should be studied with care. They can turn out to be counterproductive, and worse, heartless.


----------



## trainrover

^^ It would be respectful --not to mention helpful to us readers :uh:-- were you to simultaneously lob as the corresponding hyperlinks to --uhm-- news reports you share


----------



## hkskyline

trainrover said:


> ^^ It would be respectful --not to mention helpful to us readers :uh:-- were you to simultaneously lob as the corresponding hyperlinks to --uhm-- news reports you share


I can provide the links, although the current format is already properly sourced with respect to copyright legislation.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

If the poor are such a concern, then the ttc and/or city should provide some type of discounted rate or rebate for people below a certain income level rather than not have any fare increase for a system that is financially struggling.


----------



## trainrover

I wouldn't reckon it be struggling financially; I'd suspect it possess a deficit as far as vested policies go :dunno:


----------



## trainrover

hkskyline said:


> I can provide the links, although the current format is already properly sourced with respect to copyright legislation.


I think it courteous indicating its op-ed angle, thus revealing its nonexistent newsworthiness :yes:

Moreover, duly referencing the links is obligatory (not optional in the slightest).


----------



## hkskyline

trainrover said:


> I think it courteous indicating its op-ed angle, thus revealing its nonexistent newsworthiness :yes:
> 
> Moreover, duly referencing the links is obligatory (not optional in the slightest).


I think a lot of people don't have sufficient understanding of the fair use doctrine of copyright law and think a link is obligatory in properly referencing other people's work. I won't criticize their ignorance here, but in substance, having a link to, say, the Toronto Star article, is no different than referencing the article to the Toronto Star.

However, if people think seeing the link that will lead them to the exact same text can help them understand the topic somehow better, then I can most certainly help them achieve a better understanding, albeit with a bizarre smirk.


----------



## trainrover

If you were so bloody precautious for copyrighting blah-blah-blah, then you'd have lobbed us links upon composing little (respective) introductory summaries :yes:


----------



## hkskyline

trainrover said:


> If you were so bloody precautious for copyrighting blah-blah-blah, then you'd have lobbed us links upon composing little (respective) introductory summaries :yes:


You should read up copyright law first. You don't understand what proper sourcing encompasses.


----------



## trainrover

No art to your --uhm-- persuasion hno: Shame about your post-secondary education having no effect on your proprietary faculties.


----------



## trainrover

Wikipedia is now claiming the Toronto subway no longer being the country's busiest network (by roughly 200,000 daily passengers :uh Is this true? :?


----------



## hkskyline

trainrover said:


> No art to your --uhm-- persuasion hno: Shame about your post-secondary education having no effect on your proprietary faculties.


Obviously you couldn't be persuaded if you don't understand the topic in the first place. Feel free to share the sections of copyright legislation that restrict the types of proper sourcing.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

The issue is not with general copyright law, but instead with the rules on this website which state that when people post an article, only a portion may be posted in the thread and with a link pointing to the rest.


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> The issue is not with general copyright law, but instead with the rules on this website which state that when people post an article, only a portion may be posted in the thread and with a link pointing to the rest.


I'm going to raise this to the mod team on what exactly is the risk that we're trying to deal with regarding these links. I find it very confusing because the original intention is likely copyright issues, but posting a link does not necessarily address that. I had a discussion about this in the Aussie forum earlier this year, where I found incorrectly-sourced links posted with the content but it seems that's OK because a link is present. Let me bring this up for more clarification. Thanks.


----------



## trainrover

Me, I've lately limited my sharing of news by hyperlinking their corresponding headlines to the originators' online versions (for instance, fully replicating them here and then claiming their representing a balanced indication of --say-- the state of Canada's railways would be excessive ).


----------



## hkskyline

trainrover said:


> Me, I've lately limited my sharing of news by hyperlinking their corresponding headlines to the originators' online versions (for instance, fully replicating them here and then claiming their representing a balanced indication of --say-- the state of Canada's railways would be excessive ).


I doubt a news report in isolation can paint a full picture of a company, or an industry. That's why experts need to keep aware of what's happening and piece all the bits together.


----------



## trainrover

Oh! so all these pages serve as hunting grounds for formulating experts' decisions aided by slanted reports :weird:


----------



## SoroushPersepolisi

RC8 said:


> Who would return change? The bus driver?
> 
> I believe both of those systems are supposed to be used primarily by presto smart card holders by now. I don't know many countries/cities where someone would give you change at a bus. Many places with smart cards have stopped taking cash altogether!


the bus drivers and the ticket machines! cash is widely used yet they dont return change


----------



## Gil

SoroushPersepolisi said:


> the bus drivers and the ticket machines! cash is widely used yet they dont return change


Interesting thing I learned from someone in a retailing program. By law change does not need to be provided by a vendor. It's just a courtesy to the shopper. Most newspaper boxes and payphones don't give change either. In most cases it's stated as such. The automated machines that GO Transit uses only take coins, so you're more likely to pay the exact amount unless you're using credit or debit.


----------



## SoroushPersepolisi

^^ thats what im protesting at! what kind of law is that ? its straight up stealing/fraud


then they (authorities) say "we respect all people and their property and equality " blah blah blah

point is, you must return peoples' money if they want it back


----------



## isaidso

Just don't do business with them. No change? I'll gladly go somewhere else and I have a very very long memory.


----------



## Gil

SoroushPersepolisi said:


> ^^ thats what im protesting at! what kind of law is that ? its straight up stealing/fraud
> 
> 
> then they (authorities) say "we respect all people and their property and equality " blah blah blah
> 
> point is, you must return peoples' money if they want it back


At the risk of derailing this topic, the principle is why would you pay more than the asking price? Yes it's your property, one should be more careful with it.


----------



## SoroushPersepolisi

^^ i only had two dollar coins 
but that shouldnt be an issue in the first place if the system was proper!
and its not that they "forgot" to implement change return, its done on purpose, god knows how much extra money they generate from the potential hundreds of people that dont get their money returned to them per day
you get change back in the store, in the mall , in a restaurant, so why should it be any different for such services?


----------



## Svartmetall

RC8 said:


> Who would return change? The bus driver?
> 
> I believe both of those systems are supposed to be used primarily by presto smart card holders by now. I don't know many countries/cities where someone would give you change at a bus. Many places with smart cards have stopped taking cash altogether!


In Auckland, all buses give change, as do trains as the conductors carry money. Stockholm, however, doesn't even allow cash fares on their buses at all and the public transport system is totally cashless. Both are extremes and neither are great, but personally I prefer the cashless thing - stops issues with drivers or conductors having to carry extreme amounts of money - violence against bus drivers was a bit of an issue in Auckland according to drivers I spoke to.


----------



## dj4life

The cashless system in Stockholm seems to be fair, however it is not very flexible. For instance, the tourists who come by ferries usualy struggle to purahse a single ticket from the ticket machine or by sms (it should also be noted that this operation is not allowed for the ones who do not have a (swedish) mobile phone card conjugated with the personal swedish bank account anymore).


----------



## krnboy1009

Whats the progress on the airport rail link construction?


----------



## trainrover

The spur to the airport's not been mentioned for ages.


----------



## krnboy1009

Isnt it under construction?


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## hkskyline

Source : http://www.photofans.cn/blog/showarticle.php?threadyear=2012&threadid=72277


----------



## trainrover

Like Montreal's Dorval and Mirabel airports, I wonder if any Toronto's airport's been equipped with a station shell and how old it must be by now ...


----------



## Gil

trainrover said:


> Like Montreal's Dorval and Mirabel airports, I wonder if any Toronto's airport's been equipped with a station shell and how old it must be by now ...


Terminal 3 is the only surviving original structure left at Pearson. Everything else was razed for the redevelopment. That would include any original station shell. A new station shell if you will was set aside when they built the new buildings. I believe it's in the vicinity of the multi-level parking garage at Terminal 1.

As for construction, they're still going about securing the right-of-way (i.e. creating all the necessary grade separations). Once that's in place and the spur line is built it'd just be a matter of putting the trains on the tracks.


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## trainrover

05 July 2012 '







':
_...starts construction on Toronto airport rail link_​:sly: @ publisher


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## SoroushPersepolisi

guys does anybody know what they are building on highway 7 close to leslie ? a tram line?


----------



## JustinB

A busway. Might be converted to Light Rail later.


----------



## Suburbanist

JustinB said:


> A *busway.* Might be converted to Light Rail later.


Canadians going 3rd World now? Why not build LRT right now?


----------



## SoroushPersepolisi

JustinB said:


> A busway. Might be converted to Light Rail later.


wow, over a year work digging and building such stations for a brt lane?


----------



## saiho

^^ well to be fair they had to widen the entire highway 7 by 3ish lanes to keep the original 6 lanes of car traffic and to squeeze in a bike lane. Unlike other median BRT lines which just take away lanes and slap on some platforms.


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## ssiguy2

It's only better than taking a cab if you are by yourself. 2 people will cost atleast $50 plus a possible $6 for 2 transit tickets to get to the station. 

This is not, under any consideration, a public transit service. The only thing public about this line is that the public are paying 100% of the cost of it.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

I thought that the diesels are only temporary.. as in no more than 3 years of them. only enough to get through the pan-ams and then have them converted to electric, as the infrastructure for EMU's could not be built by 2015.

and suburbanist, toronto is building 50km of LRT right now, and another 27km will probably receive funding in the next couple of years. Hardly 3rd world. on top of that we have probably close to 50km of BRT being built.


----------



## Marcanadian

I think Metrolinx is claiming that they're temporary, but there's no guarantee that electrification will happen anytime soon as they're desperate for funding. A funding model for their 'Big Move' projects is supposed to be released within the year, which will likely include road tolls and possibly a regional sales tax.


----------



## saiho

Innsertnamehere said:


> I thought that the diesels are only temporary.. as in no more than 3 years of them. only enough to get through the pan-ams and then have them converted to electric, as the infrastructure for EMU's could not be built by 2015.


They are its just ssiguy2 making a big deal about the diesel part of it.



Innsertnamehere said:


> and suburbanist, toronto is building 50km of LRT right now, and another 27km will probably receive funding in the next couple of years. Hardly 3rd world. on top of that we have probably close to 50km of BRT being built.


no complaining from me here, the ball in Toronto has started to roll... after 10 or so years of searching for that ball.


----------



## trainrover

Innsertnamehere said:


> toronto is building 50km of LRT right now


Any picture :?


----------



## ssiguy2

I don't know how you could say I'm the only person making a big deal about running diesel trains. City councillors don't want them and nor does anyone living even remotely close to the line. Remember this will be the ONLY rail service to an airport on this planet that will run diesel trains. 

Metrolinx say they want to electrify the line "at some point" which in Toronto means within this millenium. Also even if the electrify the line it is still just a line for tax right-offs. 

This line will not offer anymore transit service to Torontonians than the Maid of the Mist does to the people of Niagara.


----------



## krnboy1009

^Well not really. Alaska Railroad runs service to ANC with diesel. Although that service is for cruise passengers only.

Metra technically runs train service to ORD with diesel engine.


----------



## trainrover

Diesel electric rail service to an airport tells me that the city mustn't take transit seriously, which is how come I doubt the construction of LRT there not be real.


----------



## saiho

trainrover said:


> Any picture :?





trainrover said:


> Diesel electric rail service to an airport tells me that the city mustn't take transit seriously, which is how come I doubt the construction of LRT there not be real.


actually its only ~25km of LRT all which belongs to the Eglinton Crosstown it broke ground in 2011 and TBMs will start tunnelling this year.



ssiguy2 said:


> I don't know how you could say I'm the only person making a big deal about running diesel trains. City councillors don't want them and nor does anyone living even remotely close to the line. Remember this will be the ONLY rail service to an airport on this planet that will run diesel trains.
> 
> Metrolinx say they want to electrify the line "at some point" which in Toronto means within this millenium. Also even if the electrify the line it is still just a line for tax right-offs.
> 
> This line will not offer anymore transit service to Torontonians than the Maid of the Mist does to the people of Niagara.


City councillors don't understand how long it takes to design an electrification system even if its what engineers call custom off the shelf (COTS) technology. The line has to be done by 2015 and they are still in the pre-planning phase. Also GO is a growing system once the ARL is electrified i don't think it will just stagnate like the AMT Deux-Montagnes line.


----------



## trainrover

Stagnate? Just what makes you think that that Canadia/en term be Quebec, since, after all, neither deux nor montagne -- let alone mountain-- had appeared anywhere in this here thread? Should your accusatory stance be indeed compulsive, then do/get it right, e.g., I must be the first to be informing you of la Jonction de l'Est, never mind the *equivalently* double-stacking  of its very rakes . . .

You see, it's exactly this imprecisely and overly infrequent cdn-anglofilic snippiness of this, e.g., member's, that induces me to lean toward separatism verly-fed-up: :|


----------



## saiho

trainrover said:


> Stagnate? Just what makes you think that that Canadia/en term be Quebec, since, after all, neither deux nor montagne -- let alone mountain-- had appeared anywhere in this here thread? Should your accusatory stance be indeed compulsive, then do/get it right, e.g., I must be the first to be informing you of la Jonction de l'Est, never mind the *equivalently* double-stacking  of its very rakes . . .
> 
> You see, it's exactly this imprecisely and overly infrequent cdn-anglofilic snippiness of this, e.g., member's, that induces me to lean toward separatism verly-fed-up: :|


Whoa, I meant stagnate in the field of electrification, AMT has improved its service like GO transit but they haven't really expanded their electric traction capabilities. My point is that the electrified ARL will look as lonely as the deux-montagne if GO didn't follow though with more electrification.


----------



## trainrover

Whoa deflected right back atcha, you're wrong, coz the 2 mtns line underwent a major retrofit to its power & traction ... funny your making nothing outta the conversion from 2700DC to 25000AC + all its consequential benefits...


----------



## saiho

OK i didn't know about AMT's vision 2020 electrification plan. so AMT is not stagnating. But on the contrary still proves my point earlier, with a small stretch of electrification such as future ARL or deux montagnes and the future prospect ridership growth will provide the impetus to expand the electrified network. There is a good chance GO will follow though with the electrification of the Georgetown and both Lakeshore lines in the midterm. 



trainrover said:


> Whoa deflected right back atcha, you're wrong, coz the 2 mtns line underwent a major retrofit to its power & traction ... funny your making nothing outta the conversion from 2700DC to 25000AC + all its consequential benefits...


ironically, compared to vision 2020 is not a big deal at all. The shanghai metro line 1 converted from DC to AC and the entire London subsurface network will run from the awk. 630V to the more normal 750V. No one is doing flips over that.


----------



## trainrover

Good chance? around Can-o'-duh? :hahano: You're a muddled person ... the AMT flipped the switch to its voltage yestermillenium.

You see, Canadia/ens oughtta first become accustomed to scoring truth prior to taking to the practise of stretching it


----------



## saiho

trainrover said:


> Good chance? around Can-o'-duh? :hahano: You're a muddled person ... the AMT flipped the switch to its voltage yestermillenium.


Ironic that a person who claims that Canadians stretch the truth is making a big deal out of a voltage change which happened almost 20 years ago, that I am also fully aware of. Regardless of the time it was converted my response is still valid; a change in volts and current type is not a big deal, not in the 90's not today. The correct idea is that the Deux-Montagnes Line had a complete overhaul in infrastructure. Not some measly voltage change. :yawn:



trainrover said:


> You see, Canadia/ens oughtta first become accustomed to scoring truth prior to taking to the practise of stretching it


Well I do admit I am an optimist these days. The past 10-20 years of Toronto's transit has been a stagnating mess and Canada is possibly the worst developed country when it comes to railway based transit. I too back then had a pessimistic view on Toronto transit but you know what things are starting to look up... in terms of intra city mass transit. There is no embellishing of facts. Firstly there is no facts stated just qualitative observations and speculation. Note the use of "Good Chance" instead of say "definitely", "will", "certainly", or "promised". I am well aware that many projects get lost and hopes dashed in Toronto and that this is no exception. I am just merely saying that GO is working on designing the electrification system and moving forward with it. As this time the EA is done and they moved on to pre-planning. Still plenty of opportunities for the project to get axed and/or denied of funding, whatever floats your boat. :cheers:


----------



## trainrover

trainrover said:


> Stagnate?


It wasn't all that long ago that 2-mtns trains had cowboy trains for its stock ... kiddo, once somebody cocks up at making statements, it often turns out my abandoning the remaining 4/5 of what s/he bothered to attempt relating ...


----------



## Innsertnamehere

saiho said:


> actually its only ~25km of LRT all which belongs to the Eglinton Crosstown it broke ground in 2011 and TBMs will start tunnelling this year.


the eglinton crosstown is 19km, but then there is the sheppard east LRT line, (12km) the finch west LRT line (10km) and the SRT conversion and extension. (9km, with 6.3km of it replacing an existing service) That is 50 km, and 44km of new service. plus the 8.6km subway extension.


----------



## saiho

Innsertnamehere said:


> the eglinton crosstown is 19km, but then there is the sheppard east LRT line, (12km) the finch west LRT line (10km) and the SRT conversion and extension. (9km, with 6.3km of it replacing an existing service) That is 50 km, and 44km of new service. plus the 8.6km subway extension.


yes, but of all those only the eglinton crosstown and the subway is actually under construction the rest still hasn't broken ground.


----------



## trainrover

trainrover said:


> :cripes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wouldn't be sharing it were it not for Telly + subway yard shots (ending)


...


----------



## saiho

http://torontoist.com/2012/09/spotted-torontos-brand-new-streetcars/

new streetcars have arrived (with pics):banana:

:dance:


----------



## IanCleverly

So, um, this video is doing the rounds:-






*Contains LOTS of Swearing*


----------



## IanCleverly

Toronto Transit Commission said:


> The Toronto Transit Commission has set a new 12 month ridership record. From October 3, 2011 to October 2, 2012, the TTC carried just over 510 million riders. By the end of this year, the TTC expects to have carried 514 million riders, with a projected ridership of 528 million in 2013.
> 
> The TTC has taken steps to add extra service to meet the increase in ridership. In September and October, the TTC increased service on 77 subway, streetcar and bus routes, with approximately 50 of these increases during peak times. More service will be added in the new year to meet ridership demand.
> 
> In addition, the new Toronto Rocket subway trains continue to be pressed into service on the Yonge-University-Spadina line, adding an additional 10 per cent passenger capacity. As well, a new signal system is being installed on the line that will allow for more trains and greater frequency of service, further increasing capacity.
> 
> In 2014, Toronto’s next generation of streetcars will begin serving TTC customers. The accessible, low-floor streetcars will be more comfortable, spacious and reliable, and equipped with air conditioning and the PRESTO smartcard system.


Continues Here




Toronto Star said:


> A TTC study on the potential for a new "downtown relief" subway line paints a near-apocalyptic vision of commuting to Toronto’s core by 2031 — if transit officials don’t come up with a relief valve.
> 
> The level of overcrowding, with demand up by a projected 50 per cent, will dwarf today’s discomfort on the Yonge subway. Existing plans to increase GO and TTC capacity won’t be enough to stem the overflow of commuters trying to get into the downtown core every day, according to the report that goes before the TTC board on Wednesday.
> 
> By then, the population living south of College St. between Bathurst and Parliament will nearly double. Employment is projected to grow 28 per cent, and demand for transit downtown will jump to 236,000 trips in the morning peak, from 155,000 now.
> 
> “The most serious capacity issues are related to long- and medium-distance trips from the east and north", says the Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study. Crowding on the Yonge-University-Spadina subway line, which carries about 30,000 people an hour in the morning rush, will be further exacerbated by riders boarding at new stations on the Spadina subway extension into York Region, set to open in 2016.
> 
> A second phase of the study will look at what route and stations the relief line would use. But maps in the report suggest a DRL running south from Pape, west along King St. to St. Andrew Station. A second phase would continue west to about Roncesvalles and head north connecting to the Bloor subway. The first phase would cost about $3.2 billion, the western extension, an additional $3 billion.


News story taken from Here


----------



## Innsertnamehere

some of the first documents released in the DRL feasibility study, showing ridership.




























and the PDF which includes much more information:

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2012/October_24/Reports/Downtown_Rapid_Trans.pdf


----------



## trainrover

Odd that no diagram captures the Queen tunnel.


----------



## Gil

trainrover said:


> Odd that no diagram captures the Queen tunnel.


They haven't completely decided on a routing through downtown and simply chose King in order to do their modelling.

There are a few factors leading to something more southerly like King vs. Queen. A lot of development both residential and commercial is occuring at the south end of downtown (south of Front St.). In order to try and capture that ridership the line has to be within easy walking distance. King is two blocks north of Front, with the development occurring at least one to two blocks further south. A line on Queen, about two blocks north would not really attract that traffic. 

There are other ideas for the line to use Wellington or even Front (which would complicate the construction now underway at Union Station). 

The tunnels left for the original Queen streetcar subway (think Boston's Green Line) are too small, and likely too shallow to be used as a larger line along Queen St. There are underground utilities, passages and garages in the way at that depth.

There is also the issue of disturbing the above street while construction is going on. One concern is St. Michael's hospital which is a major trauma centre downtown whose non-emergency entrance is on Queen. Having the entrance blocked for an extended period of time would be problematic.

Queen does have some high-traffic generators along its route, which are already served by the existing subway stops at Osgoode and Queen like the Eaton Centre, City Hall, Osgoode Hall and the Four Seasons Centre for the Arts. While a King line would cut right through the Financial District (the destination for most transferring southbound at Yonge) it would also serve St. Lawrence (if a stop were placed at Jarvis rather than Sherbourne) and the Distillery District (with a station at Parliment).

Businesses along both streets aren't looking forward to the disruption the project will cause but agree something needs to be done. King St. is currently proposed to go through some massive development changes if approved by City Hall. Those changes would bring additional density to the corridor and if approved would probably include some sort of provision in terms of foundation setbacks to adequately allow a line to run beneath King St. The stations themselves are still up for debate, and if the developers are willing to chip in for their construction, all the more reason for that routing.


----------



## trainrover

Huffing a further 300m wouldn't kill anybody, overly bunching up the lines would be much. I wonder if the King option is also more for commuters using the Union depot, not much thought for having them change trains at the extremities of the new line seems to be illustrated into the diagrams.


----------



## Jim856796

About Toronto's proposed Union Station-Pearson Airport railway line, the name "Air Rail Link" was just a placeholder. The official name, *"Union Pearson Express"*, was revealed on 29 November 2012, per this news release.


----------



## Woonsocket54

*TORONTO | Union-Pearson Express*

photos from urbantoronto. ca user *drum118* as of March 15

Source http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showth...n-Pearson-Express-(Airport-Rail-Link)/page172:


----------



## n20

^^ Very nice pictures.
Thanks for sharing, Woonsocket54!
The wiki source states the projected date of commencing operation is in 2015.


----------



## MK Tom

Great pictures!!

Why would anyone still use wooden sleepers (ties) on a new line built for passenger use? Concrete or steel ones last far longer; I had thought wooden ones were only ever used for junctions these days.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

Turns out that Metrolinx will be releasing a preliminary report on possible taxes to implement that are needed to fund the Big Move. If funded, Toronto will get 20km of new subway lines, 3 electrified urban rail lines, 2 way all day GO train service on 2 additional lines, 37km of LRT, and 86km of BRT.


----------



## Falubaz

^^ Where exactly will these extentions go and which corridors will be served by LRT and BRT? Btw. Will the BRT be just a buslanes or fully segregated?


----------



## Innsertnamehere

brt will mostly be reserved lanes, but one line will be completely grade seperated. (the one in the second image standing alone around the middle of the image)

as for where they will go, here is a map:
-red is BRT
-thin black lines are all day 2 way GO commuter lines (about a train every hour, more 
during rush)
-Thick black is all way 2 day Electrified GO trains running on around 15 minute frequencies, more during rush hour
- Thick coloured lines are Grade seperated lines, whether that is subways or LRT running under ground
- Thin coloured lines are LRT lines


Our current transit map:










our currently funded transit map: ( I noticed I made a mistake with this one, the blue line should be extended to the light green line like in the third image)










and what our map would look like with the transit tax:


----------



## Gil

Innsertnamehere said:


> brt will mostly be reserved lanes, but one line will be completely grade seperated. (the one in the second image standing alone around the middle of the image)
> 
> as for where they will go, here is a map:
> -red is BRT
> -thin black lines are all day 2 way GO commuter lines (about a train every hour, more
> during rush)
> -Thick black is all way 2 day Electrified GO trains running on around 15 minute frequencies, more during rush hour
> - Thick coloured lines are Grade seperated lines, whether that is subways or LRT running under ground
> - Thin coloured lines are LRT lines
> 
> our currently funded transit map: ( I noticed I made a mistake with this one, the blue line should be extended to the light green line like in the third image)


You're missing the western segment of the Mississauga BRT which GO is paying for. As such, they are using the bus bypass shoulder lanes between Mavis and Erin Mills. There will be an off-road dedicated roadway between Erin Mills and Winston Churchill. One of the two stations, from the look of the plans is slated to become a regional hub. It's just not yet clear which one.

In the grand scheme of things, if more funding were available, the western segment would be entirely separated like the eastern segment being built by the City of Mississauga. Due to its nature stops were axed at Mavis and Creditview. The land is still available for the corridor, but I think the Credit River crossing was one factor for piggybacking on the 403.


----------



## Yardmaster

^^ Looks like things are looking up.


----------



## isaidso

Neat photo of Toronto's GO Train rail stock:


Fleet of Toys by Jack Landau, on Flickr


----------



## ssiguy2

Those trains are massive!


----------



## Sopomon

isaidso said:


> Neat photo of Toronto's GO Train rail stock:


Any plans to electrify? Does Canada have similar weight regulations to the US?


----------



## Innsertnamehere

ssiguy2 said:


> Those trains are massive!


yep, they hold 1500+ passengers.

as for electrification, there are plans for 3 of the 7 GO lines. They rely on a transit tax for funding though (which is mentioned in the map I posted above)



Big news for GO..



> http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/04/19/go_trains_to_run_every_30_minutes_all_day_on_lakeshore_lines.html
> 
> In the largest single service expansion of its 44-year history, GO transit is increasing train service along the lakeshore — from Oshawa to Aldershot — to every 30 minutes, seven days a week.
> “This is the final step in turning GO from a bedroom commuter service into full, regular transit,” said Ontario Transportation Minister Glen Murray. Some 263 trains a week will be added on the Lakeshore East and West lines, starting June 29.
> The announcement comes as the provincial Liberals prepare the ground for new taxes to pay for an unprecedented Toronto region transit expansion.


----------



## saiho

Innsertnamehere said:


> yep, they hold 1500+ passengers.
> 
> as for electrification, there are plans for 3 of the 7 GO lines. They rely on a transit tax for funding though (which is mentioned in the map I posted above)
> 
> 
> 
> Big news for GO..


Very big news indeed now GO can start acting like a real non-american regional/commuter rail system.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Innsertnamehere said:


> yep, they hold 1500+ passengers.
> 
> as for electrification, there are plans for 3 of the 7 GO lines. They rely on a transit tax for funding though (which is mentioned in the map I posted above)
> 
> 
> 
> Big news for GO..


I wonder why GO only has 7 lines when even cities like Boston and Philly have 11 and 13 respectively. And GO has far higher ridership than either of them with lower trip frequency.


----------



## saiho

Nouvellecosse said:


> I wonder why GO only has 7 lines when even cities like Boston and Philly have 11 and 13 respectively. And GO has far higher ridership than either of them with lower trip frequency.


Its because per line and per train GO on avg. carries more people thats why the trains are so long.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

I know why it has higher ridership. What I'm curious about is why they don't expand services.


----------



## Gil

Nouvellecosse said:


> I know why it has higher ridership. What I'm curious about is why they don't expand services.


They'd like to, and they've identified additional corridors they'd like to operate but they have to fight tooth and nail with CN and especially CP for rights to use their tracks. Even the act of adding an additional train can be a long drawn out process.

Bolton, Seaton and Locust Hill/Cornell as well as a Mid-town line are all places GO wants to add service in the long-run.

There are also extensions of existing routes into Niagara, Bowmanville, Uxbridge, Vandorf/Gormley and possibly Cambridge.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-budget-to-include-funding-to-expand-public-transit-in-toronto-hamilton/article11458558/



> *Ontario budget to include funding to expand public transit in Toronto, Hamilton*
> 
> Ontario's budget will lay out the province’s plan for paying for transit expansion, adding financial teeth to the government’s infrastructure-building ambitions, Finance Minister Charles Sousa said Monday.
> 
> In a speech to the Economic Club at a downtown Toronto hotel, Mr. Sousa set the budget date for Thursday, May 2, and revealed that the Liberals have slashed $5-billion off the deficit over the last year. He revised the provincial deficit for last year to $9.8-billion, down from the $14.8-billion projected in the 2012 budget.


----------



## saiho

Not really much commentary on urban design and transport planning but a good summary of the legal and financial challages, goals, and accomplishments with transit expansion in Toronto.

To Immediate Controversy, Toronto Region Unveils Potential Revenue Sources to Promote $34 Billion in New Transit


----------



## Jim856796

The trains of Toronto's GO Transit are about as long as the trains of any country's intercity/high-speed rail system.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

yep, platforms are often over 350 meters long to accommodate the 12 car trains that run.

The Eglinton crosstown LRT officially started tunnel boring last week.. (the line comes in at $4.9 billion)

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...own_crews_launch_giant_tunneling_machine.html

Union station is starting to take shape, with the first fully renovated platform open. full completion is scheduled for 2015.










some old trainshed demo:










by Drum118 from here


a good overview shot from may 25th










by Jasonzed here




New Hamilton GO station:












In expectation of doubling the tracks in this corridor from 4 to 8, Metrolinx has completely cleared the corridor of trees, some over 50 years old.









k10ery


The airport link is taking shape:


Continued progress at Terminal 1 of Toronto Pearson International Airport for the Union Pearson Express by Metrolinx, on Flickr


----------



## isaidso

Union Station is going to be beautiful when it's done.


----------



## saiho

Some pictures of the VIVA rapidway BRT U/C in York Region. (northern suburb of Toronto) by Urban Toronto member Reaperexpress









Saddlecreek Lights by Reaperexpress, on Flickr

Fare Machines








Fare Payment by Reaperexpress, on Flickr

Chalmers VivaStation








Chalmers VivaStation by Reaperexpress, on Flickr


----------



## saiho

More

Saddlecreek Looking East








Looking East from Saddlecreek by Reaperexpress, on Flickr

Leslie Looking West








West from Leslie by Reaperexpress, on Flickr

West Beaver Creek Looking West








West from West Beaver Creek by Reaperexpress, on Flickr


----------



## Minato ku

What is the route of this BRT?


----------



## urbanfan89

Minato ku said:


> What is the route of this BRT?


This particular one is between Richmond Hill and Markhan on Highway . It opens June 30.


----------



## saiho

Minato ku said:


> What is the route of this BRT?


On Hwy 7


----------



## saiho

More on Valleymede Vivastation

Front








Valleymede Drive by Reaperexpress, on Flickr

Side








Valley Meed Drive by Reaperexpress, on Flickr

Back








Valleymede VivaStation backside by Reaperexpress, on Flickr


----------



## Innsertnamehere

Minato ku said:


> What is the route of this BRT?


it is the first portion of the highway 7 BRT in the northern Toronto suburbs. the portion opening next week is only 3 or so km long, but when completed in 2018 (there will be more openings slowly between now and then) the entire line will be 27km long, with a similar style BRT stretching up Yonge street (The busiest bus corridor in the northern suburbs) for another 8km. overall Toronto has 56km of BRT funded right now, with another portion opening in October in Mississauga (a suburb to the west of Toronto)


----------



## ode of bund

:hmm:Gee, I thought this would be a trolley BRT.


----------



## hkskyline

Night Train by ~EvidencE~, on Flickr


----------



## Falubaz

Just came back from Toronto. 
I like the metro there. The trams are ok, but the buses are really old. How come such a big city doesnt invest in new bus flet?
plus the old fashioned fare.










The metro trains are pretty wide which is very good.
the new ones train sets are even better.


----------



## SoroushPersepolisi

saiho said:


> More on Valleymede Vivastation
> 
> Front
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valleymede Drive by Reaperexpress, on Flickr
> 
> Side
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valley Meed Drive by Reaperexpress, on Flickr
> 
> Back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valleymede VivaStation backside by Reaperexpress, on Flickr


sooooo much god darn traffic there evertime i go 

i really hope they finish as soon as possible especially at the highway 7 leslie junction


----------



## Innsertnamehere

... Presto. Once the TTC gets it fully rolled out Metrolinx is going to start integrating fares more than it currently does.


----------



## JustinB

I don't get it. What's so hard about paying a fare, getting a transfer, and using that transfer to board another agency's bus within the 2 hour time limit?

This is going to fall on deaf ears, but not many transit user in the GTA use more than 2 transit systems, and many transit systems run routes into neighbouring municpalities. 
Not only that, there is a handy pass called the GTA pass that covers MiWay, TTC, Brampton Transit, and YRT. 

I guess it's easy to whine about a system you don't use.


----------



## saiho

JustinB said:


> I guess it's easy to whine about a system you don't use.


Actually non local non frequent users are the best measure of the usability of the system. If the GTA wants to have a truly world class public transit system such as hong kong or Paris it better heed complaints like this.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

The key is that they be occasional users, not people who constantly complain about the system from the other side of the continent and without even taking the time to figure out what the actual setup is.


----------



## JustinB

^^Exactly!


----------



## saiho

Innsertnamehere said:


> The key is that they be occasional users, not people who constantly complain about the system from the other side of the continent and without even taking the time to figure out what the actual setup is.


For sure I agree in that respect but for a system that is touted to be good, I hardly think it is very user friendly. You know there is a problem if even the locals need an explanation of how the fare system works. Regardless like I said before truly user friendly systems extend their ease of use to beyond the occasional user. Of course when presto rolls out it will be a lot better but i'm pretty sure the TTC will find a way to mess it up like they always do.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

TTCs full implementation, after transition will be very simple. every bus and streetcar will operate on POP, and you tap on with presto. if you do not have presto, you get on the bus, and there will be a fare machine on board. you pay your fare, and you get a POP receipt. that simple. The transition period is much more complicated, as every person will have to get a POP receipt at first (including PRESTO riders), and the fare machines will accept both TTC tokens and cash.

I expect the TTC to implement a $0.75 cent fare to GO like most suburban municipalities currently do (provided you have PRESTO), and once the TTC is PRESTO ready, Metrolinx will probably start to implement more substantial fare integration.


----------



## JustinB

saiho said:


> For sure I agree in that respect but for a system that is touted to be good, I hardly think it is very user friendly. You know there is a problem if even the locals need an explanation of how the fare system works. Regardless like I said before truly user friendly systems extend their ease of use to beyond the occasional user. Of course when presto rolls out it will be a lot better but i'm pretty sure the TTC will find a way to mess it up like they always do.


But what is wrong with the current system? The transfer policy is needlessly complicated, but I don't see any confusion regarding fares. Pay a flat $3.00, or use a pass. It's pretty straightforward..

Are you talking about the fare barrier? Even with Presto, it's unlikely the barrier will go away. It's extra revenue for Toronto, and the surrounding agencies. Has anyone used Presto on YRT,BRT, MT, and then at a subway station? I can only assume you get charged twice.


----------



## saiho

JustinB said:


> But what is wrong with the current system? The transfer policy is needlessly complicated, but I don't see any confusion regarding fares. Pay a flat $3.00, or use a pass. It's pretty straightforward..
> 
> 
> 
> Are you talking about the fare barrier? Even with Presto, it's unlikely the barrier will go away. It's extra revenue for Toronto, and the surrounding agencies. Has anyone used Presto on YRT,BRT, MT, and then at a subway station? I can only assume you get charged twice.


Yes you do get charged twice but that's not the problem the problem you could say is that there is no presto; which I said should in theory fix everything. User friendliness goes beyond just fares. Buying a fare seems unnerving to the non-locals. Token machines don't except fives, I saw someone drop a twenty in the fare box at a subway station and asked for 3 tokens and change and the fare collector flipped out. Transfer system inefficient and convoluted it took me 10 min to explain the red "T" system and the queen POP etc. TTC through operations with YRT and Miway are another story.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

Completely agree, the TTC fare system is still a complete mess. This will of course change with PRESTO to what I explained, and it can't come fast enough.


----------



## MafaldaBoy

Union Station Revitalization


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Why haven't they raised the platforms? What is wrong with these wooden slabs? Strange arrangement, very outdated (concrete is much better and should have been used in an extensive renovation project).


----------



## JustinB

^^Because passengers board the bi-level cars at that level? There are platforms for easy accessibilty. It's not a big issue. The trainshed is a listed building, so it's can't be demolished. I would have preferred the glass roof go over all the platforms, but it still looks really good.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

There is a high level platform for a short distance to ensure accessibility. (you can see it in the third last photo) There is no point in using concrete "slabs" as wood is just as effective and much cheaper. Concrete tends to only be used in places where wood is scarce. Every other platform on the GO network is not raised, so it would be silly to have raised train platforms here. (As well as the fact that VIA trains do not use raised platforms)


----------



## Zack Fair

Some photo of TTC subway station


Don Mills Subway Station by roken-roliko, on Flickr


Finch Subway station by AshtonPal, on Flickr


York Mills Station, Toronto by Photolifer, on Flickr


Museum TTC Subway Station, Toronto by Davoud D., on Flickr


Green walls by AshtonPal, on Flickr


----------



## isaidso

I like Museum Station, but wondering when they're going to finish it. The ceiling is still the concrete and steel pipe mess it was before. Did they run out of money? :dunno:


----------



## Zack Fair

It's been 5 years since the renovation. It's a shame the station looks like incomplete.


----------



## MafaldaBoy

*Enterprise Station* | Markham | VIVA Purple, Pink, Green



Nexis said:


> Where are the ticket machines?



Warden Station by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr

*Cedarland Station *| Markham | VIVA Purple, Green


Cedarland Station by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


Cedarland Station by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


----------



## ssiguy2

The VIVA fare system is ridiculously expensive and it looks like the frequency will not be good but the system of their BRT looks like a lot of effort and planning went into it. It looks like it has all the bells and whistles to make the system run effectively and quickly with attractive stations and streetscape. 

As for the TTC fare system there is no way in hell why the GTA should have such a huge number of different transit agencies which makes fares complicated, transfers difficult, routes unconnected, planning uncoordinated, and very bureaucratic. The GTA should have, at most, five transit systems and GO namely TTC, Peel, Halton, York, and Durham.


----------



## Gil

ssiguy2 said:


> As for the TTC fare system there is no way in hell why the GTA should have such a huge number of different transit agencies which makes fares complicated, transfers difficult, routes unconnected, planning uncoordinated, and very bureaucratic. The GTA should have, at most, five transit systems and GO namely TTC, Peel, Halton, York, and Durham.


PRESTO Card aside, aside from the TTC all of the other suburban transit agencies had transfer agreements accepting each other's transfers. There is a lot more cross-border route penetration (aside from York and Durham who only just recently introduced a connecting route, albeit at the far north end of both jurisdictions). The suburban agencies also have arrangements with GO Transit offering discounted fares.

The integration works so well that when I was much younger I made a trip from Hamilton to Thornhill on a single $2 fare. I remember at the time there were a few stories in the media about making similar trips across the GTA.

Consolidating transit agencies for greater efficiencies of scale sounds good, but with Halton and Peel there are large rural areas which have been much less enthusiastic towards regionalized transit compared to York and Durham. It could be a matter of reaching a critical mass to support transit. The various agencies already place joint orders for new vehicles. 

Within Peel, Mississauga and Brampton seem to be at odds over the future of the LRT project. Sorting out funding between the municipalities in any regional agency is always the trickiest part. Do you fund based on population, service coverage, split evenly?


----------



## Innsertnamehere

VIVA fares are ridiculous. especially once January comes around, they will be $4.00.

Still $0.75 when you connect to GO though. (though that is a minimum $5.00 cash fare there as well)

I hope the TTC introduces $0.75 cent fares to GO once they get PRESTO, it would be a great advantage for people coming from Union to hop on the subway briefly to get to where they are going in the core.


----------



## Gil

Innsertnamehere said:


> VIVA fares are ridiculous. especially once January comes around, they will be $4.00.
> 
> Still $0.75 when you connect to GO though. (though that is a minimum $5.00 cash fare there as well)
> 
> I hope the TTC introduces $0.75 cent fares to GO once they get PRESTO, it would be a great advantage for people coming from Union to hop on the subway briefly to get to where they are going in the core.


I'm torn between the discounted fare with GO and having a time-based transfer with the TTC. If ALL the subway stations were equipped with PRESTO readers and they gave you a two-hour window that'd definitely help encourage migration to PRESTO. If you need to make a transfer to a surface route regular transfers would still be used. Granted, it's not a perfect solution, but it would encourage more use if say you could run a few errands downtown on your lunch break or after work with a 90-minute or two hour window. Hell, if you timed it properly you could squeeze in a trip to Ikea, Yorkdale, Fairview or Scarborough Town Centre!


----------



## Zack Fair

The new TTC articulated Nova Bus 

Wikipedia:


> In 2012, the TTC placed an order for 27 articulated buses from Nova Bus, to arrive late in 2013. Early in 2013, the TTC expanded that order for another 126 units, to arrive in 2014. In May 2013, 9000 was photographed at Nova’s plant in Saint-Eustache, Quebec, generating excitement in the media.



New TTC Articulated Nova Bus #9000 @ Wilson! by SkyRail Productions Photography, on Flickr


New TTC Articulated Nova Bus #9000 @ Wilson! by SkyRail Productions Photography, on Flickr


New TTC Articulated Nova Bus #9000 @ Wilson! by SkyRail Productions Photography, on Flickr


New TTC Articulated Nova Bus #9000 @ Wilson! by SkyRail Productions Photography, on Flickr


New TTC Articulated Nova Bus #9000 @ Wilson! by SkyRail Productions Photography, on Flickr


New TTC Articulated Nova Bus #9000 @ Wilson! by SkyRail Productions Photography, on Flickr


New TTC Articulated Nova Bus #9000 @ Wilson! by SkyRail Productions Photography, on Flickr


----------



## trainrover

^^ That's odd coz Montreal's own (3-year-old fleet) is equipped with rear windshields by this (Queerbec-based) manufacturer.


----------



## MafaldaBoy

*Eglinton Crosstown LRT* | Under Construction


----------



## MafaldaBoy

*Union Pearson Express* | Under construction

Project website: upexpress.com | UrbanToronto database: Union Pearson Express





































via UrbanToronto


drum118 said:


> Had a meeting up by the airport on Thursday and since it was a nice day, decided to some catchup on the UPX line, since I am month behind doing so.
> 
> Tracks are in place for about 50% of the guide way and pour concrete anchor. Can't get a good shot of the new terminal from the Link trains.
> 
> The Link trains are 7 section and move slower before the shut down and not a rough ride as well. Train 1 had door problem and was taken out of service to deal with it, but was put back into service later with those door out of service as well not opening.
> 
> A few videos with the first one from Viscount to Terminal 1, Backward view from Terminal 1 and one of the elevated UPX line from the parking deck. Photos should be on line in the next few days.





drum118 said:


> Yes. There is only 6 doors going in with glazing in between them


----------



## isaidso

I was surprised to see Union Station listed as 1 of Canada's 2 busiest transit hubs along with Pearson airport. Upon Googling it, Union is actually #1 handling 91 million passengers/year or 250,000/day.


----------



## trainrover




----------



## MafaldaBoy

*Eglinton Crosstown LRT* | Under construction | _19 kilometres_

Project website: http://thecrosstown.ca/

*Preliminary Designs for Yonge-Eglinton Stations Released:*
via Metrolinx board document | PDF


----------



## MafaldaBoy

*Spadina Subway Extension* | Under construction | _8.6 kilometres_

Project website: spadina.ttc.ca

*Completion of Spadina Extension Tunnelling*
via  ttc.ca


----------



## MafaldaBoy

*Bixi Toronto*










*Bixi bike-share program to pedal forward under a new name*
via thestar.com



> Rescued from the brink of death, Toronto’s bike sharing program is going to survive — but don’t say the B word around Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong.
> 
> “We don’t mention Bixi anymore,” Minnan-Wong said at city hall Wednesday. “It’s the public bike share system, until some sponsor comes up with a very large cheque that we can use and apply to the program to keep it sustainable.”
> 
> Two days ago, the city came to a deal with Quebec-based Public Bike System Company — the creators of Bixi — to transfer all assets associated with the Toronto program.
> 
> As of next spring, Toronto’s bike sharing network will be run by the Toronto Parking Authority. Between now and then, the TPA will be seeking out a private company to operate the system, as well as a big-name sponsor to offset some of the operating costs.
> 
> Currently, the program is about $100,000-$200,000 short of breaking even on its $1.5-million operating expenses, but TPA president Lorne Persiko thinks the funding gap is manageable. Part of that will be bridged through better sponsorship deals, and Persiko thinks the rest can be found through better management.
> 
> “We will have a private-sector company who, I think, we’re going to gain efficiencies from,” he said. “We’re going to pay a fee for them to manage it. And that’s it. And then participate only in the revenues if it’s successful. We’re not going to participate in losses.”
> 
> Earlier this year it looked like the entire Bixi network was on the verge of collapse. Bixi Toronto informed city officials that it was in serious financial trouble. This wasn’t a huge surprise, given the fact that in 2011, Montreal was forced to give Bixi a $108-million bailout package.
> 
> Apart from the danger of losing the bike network, Bixi’s financial issues posed another problem. Toronto City Council agreed to guarantee a $4.8 million start-up loan — enough to help get 1,000 bikes and 80 stations on city streets.
> 
> If Bixi went under, Toronto would be on the hook for millions.
> But then Minnan-Wong, the city’s public works chair, came up with an odd idea to save the network: pay down Bixi Toronto’s loan — currently about $3.9 million — with money that had previously been earmarked to build public washrooms.
> 
> Under a 2007 street furniture contract with Astral Media, the company was supposed to build 20 self-cleaning public toilets at a cost of $450,000 each. They proved impractical for various reasons, and Bell Media’s Astral agreed to move its dollars from toilets to bikes.
> 
> “It came very close to dying,” Minnan-Wong said of the bike-share program. “This was a creative solution.”
> 
> In the next year, the City of Toronto plans to expand the bike-sharing network to 102 stations, with the help of some Pan Am Games legacy funding.


----------



## MafaldaBoy

*Union-Pearson Express* | Under construction | _25 kilometres_

Project website: upexpress.com

*November 2013 Progress*
via flickr.com | Metrolinx


Hoarding in the APM by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Lower level of Pearson Station by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Pearson Station progress by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Pearson Station progress 6 by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Pearson Station progress 7 by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Pearson Station progress 2 by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Rail and plinths on the deck 2 by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Looking south-east from the highest point on the deck. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


----------



## MafaldaBoy

*Union Station Shed Replacement* | _Under construction_

Project website: gotransit.com

*10 December 2013 Progress*
_Photos by me_


Union Station Revitalization by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


Union Station Revitalization by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


Union Station Revitalization by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


Union Station Revitalization by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


Union Station Revitalization by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


Union Station Revitalization by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


Union Station Revitalization by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


Union Station Revitalization by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


Union Station Revitalization by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


DSC_00Union Station Revitalization17_1 by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


----------



## Zack Fair

Source: Urban Toronto

*TTC Launches Free WiFi at Two Subway Stations*
by Jack Landau



> If you ride the Yonge subway line through central Toronto, you have most likely seen half of your subway train’s passengers simultaneously scramble for their cellphones when traversing the short stretch of outdoor track between Summerhill and Bloor-Yonge stations. It may seem like a puzzling coincidence to tourists from New York, Hong Kong, or other cities with WiFi-enabled underground rapid transit, but in reality it is more than just a mass Pavlovian response to the blast of sunlight experienced upon exiting a subway tunnel.
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> Image courtesy of *BAI Canada* from *Urban Toronto*
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> More: http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2013/12/ttc-launches-free-wifi-two-subway-stations



Read more:
http://www.baicanada.com/transit-partnership/


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## MafaldaBoy

*Eglinton Crosstown LRT* | Under construction | _19 kilometres_

Project website: http://thecrosstown.ca/

*Preliminary Designs for Kennedy Station Released:*
via Metrolinx board document | PDF


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## Innsertnamehere

First two are Pharmacy, not Kennedy. They are preliminary surface station designs.


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## Gil

Innsertnamehere said:


> First two are Pharmacy, not Kennedy. They are preliminary surface station designs.


:bash: No, not quite. Take another look:

The top one is PHARMACY.


MafaldaBoy said:


>


The bottom one is VICTORIA PARK.

The repetition of the station name along the canopy is a nice nod to the station names along the trim in the subway stations. It's just missing the larger station name at eye level. I realize it's preliminary, perhaps they'll consider some sort of directional signage (eastbound/westbound) as well. Even with streetcars there are people who are unsure as to which direction the vehicle is headed! Try and incorporate as many of the features of the subway in this project to try and foster familiarity and ease of use and eventual acceptance of this technology.

I'm kinda torn about having the canopy extend over the entire length of the platform. Granted it will provide complete coverage against rain and snow, but depending on how it's constructed it will also block daylight.

Would it be possible to incorporate supports for the overhead wiring into the station structure/canopy itself so that you don't have the poles at the station? It cleans up the appearance of the station somewhat.


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## Innsertnamehere

I would really like it if they could include an indoor area as well for winter months.


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## dimlys1994

Today on Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...iew/more-bilevels-ordered-for-go-transit.html
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> *More BiLevels ordered for GO Transit*
> 29 Jan 2014
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> CANADA: Toronto area transport authority Metrolinx announced a C$481m order for further 65 Bombardier Transportation BiLevel double-deck coaches on January 24. Ontario's Ministry of Transportation said the order is 'an important step toward introducing two-way, all-day service on all seven GO rail lines.'
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> The coaches are scheduled to be delivered from Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant between June 2016 and July 2017, taking GO Transit's fleet to 743 coaches.
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> There are two options for an additional 75 coaches.


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## ssiguy2

What a stupid idea, buying more bi-levels. 

Toronto is never going to get a true City Rail system with bi-levels. 

They are slower than regular EMUs even when electrified, take longer to board and much longer to empty at busy stations like Union. More short-sighted thinking from Metrolinx and furthers their belief that GO rail should be nothing more than a 905 to Union service.


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## Innsertnamehere

Nouvellecosse said:


> Let's not forget though that there are already limits imposed by the track and signalling system that determine how many trains per hour can come in and out of a station and use the rail corridors leading up to it. so increasing the number of trains isn't always an option without incurring huge expense. Most metro systems usually only have one or two branches per line that feed the stations in the centre of the network, but mainline rail stations may have many more services - both commuter rail lines and intercity passenger routes - all converging into the same station and central track corridor. So in that sense, being able to serve the same number of passengers with fewer train movements can actually reduce the strain on the tracks at the station and central rail corridor.
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exactly. anything other than the current model would involve huge amounts of money. DMU or EMU service will become increasingly possible in the coming years (and GO seems to be considering switching its Lakeshore corridors to it once they are electrified) but as GO stands now and has stood for the last 50 years its not really possible.


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## Nouvellecosse

XAN_ said:


> *Nouvellecosse*, double-deckers are common practice, but the problem is the fact that classic NA bi-levels are relatively heavy and have low power to weight ratio - http://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/train-weights-bilevel-version/


FRA compliance has added unnecessary bulk to mainline passenger operations of all types across NA for a long time now, and even though the FRA is a US agency, railroads in Canada tend to follow the guidelines as well. But the recent announcement that the requirements will be relaxed means there is light at the end of the proverbial tunnel.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=208274


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## rdgnrdgn

I watched a video on Youtube. A man takes a video while the front door is open in H5 or H6 car.
How he could open the door?


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## trainrover

rdgnrdgn said:


> How he could open the door?


Funny, I think the federal requirement that the rear door on any Canadia/en inter-city train remain unlocked during passenger service still stands.


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## rdgnrdgn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bp1ECiBAL8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_ijt7961Jg&list=WL17E81A7012593F92
These are the videos i said.
In the first video, he/she is pulling door left, and the door is opening.
But in Ankara's H6 cars; there is a lock on the door, and there is no instruction for how to open that door, or in which situations we can use it. It's totally prohibited.
TTC's H6 and the other subway cars dont have locks on the doors?


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## trainrover

What part of deregulation slips by you?


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## saiho

rdgnrdgn said:


> I watched a video on Youtube. A man takes a video while the front door is open in H5 or H6 car.
> How he could open the door?


The doors in Toronto are unlocked, even though you are not allowed to move between cars.


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## Zack Fair

Big update of the second platform expansion at Union Station, by salsa from Urban Toronto.



salsa said:


> Site tour, Friday March 21
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## trainrover

^^ How is the original platform to be used?


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## saiho

trainrover said:


> ^^ How is the original platform to be used?


used for trains bound to Downsview.


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## trainrover

Good news  Might the same sort of platform configuration be brought about for the Yonge stop, do you know?


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## Zack Fair

^^ Not likely to happen in the near future.



CTV aerial footage of the new streetcar:

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=312467&playlistId=1.1743536&binId=1.815892&playlistPageNum=1


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## trainrover

^^ What cheek! that FOREVER-DAFT channel lobbed me some dynamic advert of one of their competitors yet, as usual, the actual video couldn't be played














Astonishing that that operator still give no priority to squelching their screechy wheels, especially in their underground concourses there hno:

There's a thread in this forum dedicated to the trams there, by the way.


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## dimlys1994

As for me, I would like to see Waterfront West LRT. As far as I know, Ford cancelled it, isn't it?


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## Urbanista1

cancelled all of the LRT's and even removed some bike lanes...he wants everyone to be as morbidly obese as him


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## Scizoid.Trans.Prog.

What brand are these new streetcars?


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## Gros Matou

Scizoid.Trans.Prog. said:


> What brand are these new streetcars?


Bombardier Flexity Freedom

http://www.bombardier.com/en/transp...cles/light-rail-vehicles/flexity-freedom.html


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## Klausenburg

Gros Matou said:


> Bombardier Flexity Freedom
> 
> http://www.bombardier.com/en/transp...cles/light-rail-vehicles/flexity-freedom.html


Do you have any idea why Flexity Freedom is more aproppriate for North America then Flexity 2 ?


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## Gros Matou

Klausenburg said:


> Do you have any idea why Flexity Freedom is more aproppriate for North America then Flexity 2 ?


Other than they are built in North America, I could't find any differences with the Flexity 2.


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## saiho

trainrover said:


> Good news  Might the same sort of platform configuration be brought about for the Yonge stop, do you know?


FYI the existing platform will be walled off from the tracks for finch bound trains. It will not be a Spanish Solution setup.


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## Innsertnamehere

most of that is for the GO concourse expansion, not the second platform, but yes.


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## Innsertnamehere

dimlys1994 said:


> As for me, I would like to see Waterfront West LRT. As far as I know, Ford cancelled it, isn't it?


Waterfront West LRT is dead as a doornail, it never had funding and Ford didn't cancel it. All of Fords cancellations have been reinstated, with the addition of upgrading to one of the LRTs to a subway.



Klausenburg said:


> Do you have any idea why Flexity Freedom is more aproppriate for North America then Flexity 2 ?


The Streetcars are actually Flexity Outlooks, custom built for the TTC from my understanding at Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant. (Is essentially a plant built exclusively to supply Toronto with all of its train needs, every train run in the city is built by Bombardier) The streetcars have single side doors, custom gauge, modifications to fit the extremely tight turn radii in Toronto, and other things such as a trolley pole for the first couple of years of operations as the electrical supply system is upgraded for pantographs.

Toronto will be using Flexity Outlooks on the new build LRT lines such as the Eglinton Crosstown (the largest infrastructure project in Toronto's history), train selection was done in 2008, but I don't know why exactly they chose Freedoms over Flexity 2's. These LRTs will have double side doors, standard gauge, etc. They will essentially be off the shelf.


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## Tramwayman

Gros Matou said:


> Bombardier Flexity Freedom
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> http://www.bombardier.com/en/transp...cles/light-rail-vehicles/flexity-freedom.html


They are Bombardier Flexity Outlook Toronto.

Flexity Freedom is another model, they are not even made.


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## Gros Matou

Tramwayman said:


> They are Bombardier Flexity Outlook Toronto.
> 
> Flexity Freedom is another model, they are not even made.


I stand corrected. The Flexity Freedom is the model that will run on the Eglinton LRT.


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## dimlys1994

Innsertnamehere said:


> Waterfront West LRT is dead as a doornail, it never had funding and Ford didn't cancel it. All of Fords cancellations have been reinstated, with the addition of upgrading to one of the LRTs to a subway.


So when all projected LRTs will be completed, there is a chance to see WW LRT in about 2020s in the event of proper funding?


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## Innsertnamehere

not really, it has dropped off of all planning documents. Like the don mills and jane LRTs it is for all purposes dead. The next couple of projects that they want to fund are more subway expansions to deal with the existing system overloading.


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## dimlys1994

Innsertnamehere said:


> not really, it has dropped off of all planning documents. Like the don mills and jane LRTs it is for all purposes dead. The next couple of projects that they want to fund are more subway expansions to deal with the existing system overloading.


So, where new subway lines will be?


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## Innsertnamehere

DRL, a subway running roughly along King street through downtown from roughly Pape station to Dundas west. It'll relieve the overloaded yonge line south of bloor and fix the problem of station overcrowding at Bloor-Yonge, as well as providing a reliable link east west on the south end of downtown which currently relies on overcrowded and unreliable streetcars. $7+ billion dollar project, 13km long subway line. Also the Yonge extension north to Richmond hill to deal with bus system overloads in that area.


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## swimmer_spe

I still think that the Young like should only be extended up to Steeles.

Make a new line up Bay-Avenue-Bathurst to Steeles, then jog it over after The Promenade to go north to Richmond Hill Centre.

The Young side cannot carry much more.


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## saiho

swimmer_spe said:


> I still think that the Young like should only be extended up to Steeles.
> 
> Make a new line up Bay-Avenue-Bathurst to Steeles, then jog it over after The Promenade to go north to Richmond Hill Centre.
> 
> The Young side cannot carry much more.


That line would serve no one it just saturates the area "well" served by subways with more subways. A DRL would relive crowding of the Yonge line and East West streetcar lines while servicing under serviced neighborhoods.


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## Innsertnamehere

there are major capacity increases coming to the yonge line to deal with increased demand on the corridor, building another subway line right beside it has no point.


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## swimmer_spe

saiho said:


> That line would serve no one it just saturates the area "well" served by subways with more subways. A DRL would relive crowding of the Yonge line and East West streetcar lines while servicing under serviced neighborhoods.


A DRL needs to be built prior to extending the Young line.


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## swimmer_spe

Innsertnamehere said:


> there are major capacity increases coming to the yonge line to deal with increased demand on the corridor, building another subway line right beside it has no point.



Have you ever rode it during peak times? How can they actually increase capacity?


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## Innsertnamehere

increased frequency, the new signalling system will increase capacity by up to 35%.

The spadina extension is also expected to divert a bit of the load coming from the north end of the city.


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## swimmer_spe

Innsertnamehere said:


> increased frequency, the new signalling system will increase capacity by up to 35%.
> 
> The spadina extension is also expected to divert a bit of the load coming from the north end of the city.



Those would be nice, if they work.


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## saiho

swimmer_spe said:


> A DRL needs to be built prior to extending the Young line.


yes and it serves as a better relief plan.


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## MrAronymous

Now all you to is have to pretend it's in service.


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## trainrover

saiho said:


> not be a Spanish Hispanic Solution


But of course, what else might somebody expect .. it's only Canada.


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## Innsertnamehere

couple of big announcements today when the Premier announced $29 billion in new infrastructure spending. pretty vague on a lot of things still, but these are the projects we know of so far:


Downtown Relief subway line

15 minute electrified GO service on all lines except Milton

HSR between Toronto, Kitchener, and London

Hurontario LRT

Hamilton LRT

GO expansion into Niagara

Durham BRT


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## swimmer_spe

Innsertnamehere said:


> couple of big announcements today when the Premier announced $29 billion in new infrastructure spending. pretty vague on a lot of things still, but these are the projects we know of so far:
> 
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> Downtown Relief subway line
> 
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> 
> HSR between Toronto, Kitchener, and London
> 
> Hurontario LRT
> 
> Hamilton LRT
> 
> GO expansion into Niagara
> 
> Durham BRT



"IF" They get reelected.


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## dimlys1994

Construction of detour tracks as part of new South Blair St underpass at Whitby. This underpass will remove level crossing on the street, providing benefits both for cars and GO trains on Lakeshore East line. Map link:

1. Construction of the new south detour track is underway; looking west. by Metrolinx, on Flickr

2. Looking east at the new south detour track and track surfacing equipment. by Metrolinx, on Flickr

3. Construction of the new south detour track is underway; looking east. by Metrolinx, on Flickr

4. Installation of spikes in the new south detour track. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


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## Urbanista1

nice to see transit improvements in the outlying GTA. step by step we'll get there.


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## Innsertnamehere

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=354416&playlistId=1.1798460&binId=1.815892&playlistPageNum=1

video of Eglinton LRT construction


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## dimlys1994

Union Station bus terminal renovation works:


May 2014 - Union Station Bus Terminal by Metrolinx, on Flickr


May 2014 - Union Station Bus Terminal by Metrolinx, on Flickr


May 2014 - Union Station Bus Terminal by Metrolinx, on Flickr


May 2014 - Union Station Bus Terminal by Metrolinx, on Flickr


May 2014 - Union Station Bus Terminal by Metrolinx, on Flickr


May 2014 - Union Station Bus Terminal by Metrolinx, on Flickr


May 2014 - Union Station Bus Terminal by Metrolinx, on Flickr


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## Innsertnamehere

$14 billion in Toronto transit expansion funding over the next 10 years was announced by the Province today, though the money still needs to be approved by the legislature. This requires opposition support in the minority government's position, and there are many rumours swirling of an incoming provincial election. We should know whether the money will be approved or not in the coming days.


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## Gil

^^
^^

With the renovations at Union Station Bus Terminal, it makes me wonder why they didn't have the overhead covering run the entire length of the station so that all the platforms get coverage. The poor passengers on the Route 71 to Markham, Stouffville and Uxbridge have had to wait exposed to the elements since the station opened.

The enclosed area could have been a little bigger too. There's all that room left over. They should have just enclosed everything from the East Teamway all the way to the existing station building. More ticket windows, bigger washrooms and probably room for another retail or fast food outlet.


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## Innsertnamehere

the bus terminal is insanely over capacity, when it was built in the early 2000's it was barely used as off peak GO bus service was very limited. Its since exploded in use and is underbuilt. The 71 route bus bay isn't technically a bus bay, they just stuck up a digital sign and let the buses pull up to the curb, it doesn't have a curb indent like all the other bays do.

It was fine for when the built it, and the bus terminal likely won't even be needed in a decade anyway. I expect it to just become progressively more over capacity until they can introduce off peak train services on a new line in 2 or 3 years.


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## Urbanista1

Innsertnamehere said:


> $14 billion in Toronto transit expansion funding over the next 10 years was announced by the Province today, though the money still needs to be approved by the legislature. This requires opposition support in the minority government's position, and there are many rumours swirling of an incoming provincial election. We should know whether the money will be approved or not in the coming days.


sadly an election has been called, although Liberals are leading, if the right wing conservative party of Tim Hudak wins, there will be no money for transit in Toronto. existing projects may or may not be completed, there is a chance the eglinton crosstown might be halted just like Harris did in late 90's. For sure there will be no more transit projects. Let's hope a Lib majority or atleast a coalition with NDP wins and then we'll make some real progress.


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...erloo-ion-light-rail-ppp-contract-signed.html
> 
> *Waterloo ION light rail PPP contract signed*
> 15 May 2014
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> CANADA: The Region of Waterloo and the GrandLinq consortium of Keolis, Plenary Group, Meridiam, Kiewit and Aecon have achieved financial close on the 33-year public-private partnership contract to design, build, finance, operate and maintain Stage 1 of the ION light rail project.
> 
> GrandLinq was selected as preferred bidder in March, with financial close announced on May 9. Construction of the 19 km Stage 1 from Conestoga Mall in Waterloo to Fairview Park Mall in Kitchener with 16 stops is scheduled to start this month for completion in 2017.
> 
> The region is providing C$253m, the province of Ontario C$300m, and the federal government one-third of eligible costs up to C$265m. Financing was arranged by Alberta Treasury Branches as lender and CIBC World Markets as senior bond underwriter. The region said favourable interest rates meant final construction financing costs were C$2·5m lower than had been expected in March, and the 30-year financing costs have been reduced by C$11·5m.
> 
> The project includes a three-year construction phase, with the GrandLinq Contractors partnership of Aecon and Kiewit to undertake the work. Aecon's share of the construction contract is expected to be C$250m. The GrandLinq consortium will then operate and maintain the line for 30 years.
> 
> The Region of Waterloo will own the infrastructure and vehicles, set fares and service frequencies, be responsible for customer service and system-wide integration, receive all fare revenue and monitor performance. In August 2013 it ordered 14 five-section 100% low-floor Flexity Freedom light rail vehicles from Bombardier Transportation at a cost of C$66m.
> 
> Keolis values its share of the PPP contract at C$550m. ‘We are very proud to have been chosen by Region of Waterloo and we look forward to developing a strong partnership,’ said Bernard Tabary, CEO, International at Keolis. ‘Bringing the operator’s perspective from the design and construction phase is essential to delivering an efficient and sustainable system. By using our “think like a passenger” approach we will bring a new travel experience to local citizens.’


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## Innsertnamehere

Waterloo ain't Toronto, you would probably be better off creating a Waterloo transit thread.


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## dimlys1994

Innsertnamehere said:


> Waterloo ain't Toronto, you would probably be better off creating a Waterloo transit thread.


I don't know, but when I published this in Toronto Streetcar forum, *Suburbanist* said that I could publish this news here


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## Urbanista1

It is kindof in the Greater Toronto Area or the Golden Horseshoe so may we could change thread title to Greater Toronto Area....in the spirit of Metrolinx


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## Innsertnamehere

except Metrolinx doesn't have control over Waterloo. Waterloo is an independent city of 500,000 people over 50km from Toronto.


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## isaidso

50 km from the *outskirts of* Toronto at that. Waterloo is as far (and as removed) from Toronto as Milwaukee is from Chicago. That said, the LRT proposal is great news for Waterloo.


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## dimlys1994

Latest progress on Toronto Union station upgrade - this photo shows last steel piece that was installed on the new roof:

May 2014 - Union Station Revitalization Train Shed by Metrolinx, on Flickr

And roof itself:

May 2014 - Union Station Revitalization Train Shed by Metrolinx, on Flickr


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## dimlys1994

^^At night:

May 2014 - Union Station Revitalization Train Shed by Metrolinx, on Flickr


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## Urbanista1

Toronto will finally have a railway gateway befitting it's greatness. Those old sheds have always been an embarrassment, our actual Union Station is very impressive, not like Penn Station that was demolished sadly in NYC but on a Canadian scale.


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## isaidso

It's starting to come together. Airports and major rail terminals are often a travelers first impression of a city, and we finally have a rail shed that sets the right tone. What's the time line on the green roofs on either side of the glass atrium?


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## dimlys1994

Progress on rebuilding of Bloor Go station, in prepared of Union Pearson Express:


Rebar for stair foundation Bloor by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Adding more shelters Bloor station by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Adding more accessibility elevator shaft at Bloor by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Progress in the excavation pit Bloor by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Excavation pit from east side by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Excavation pit at Bloor GO station almost the length of a GO train. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Excavation pit and GO train Bloor by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Looking south to Union from Bloor by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Below the lightbox Bloor by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Bloor St entrance and feature lightbox by Metrolinx, on Flickr


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## Innsertnamehere

some arial pictures of the new BRT that opened in Markham last year (suburb of Toronto), the second phase is later this year.


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## swimmer_spe

Gil said:


> It really helps keep the traffic volume down coming in before and heading out after games. The Rogers Centre/Skydome is just down the street. The trains are always full of fans in various paraphernalia. Beats paying the parking premium whenever there's a game downtown!
> 
> There was an early proposal when they were trying to figure out where the new stadium/arena would be built to place it on top of Union Station similar to Madison Square Garden/Penn Station.


BMO Field is at Exhibition. Really, in Toronto, why not take transit?


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## Gil

swimmer_spe said:


> BMO Field is at Exhibition. Really, in Toronto, why not take transit?


Exhibition, aside from for special events, requires a transfer at Union from the other lines which can be a deterrent for some people who can't easily get to the Lakeshore Line. GO is slowly catching on, and when large crowds are expected at Exhibition they do through-route some of the other lines that normally terminate at Union.

Not sure if they'll be doing that this year with the construction work taking place in and around the station.


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## dimlys1994

From Metrolinx, improvements works at Ajax Go station:

1. Installation of a snow-melting system on the east side of the platform. by Metrolinx, on Flickr

2. Installation of a snow-melting system on the east side of the platform. by Metrolinx, on Flickr

3. Installation of a snow-melting system on the east side of the platform. by Metrolinx, on Flickr

4. Grading overtop the snowmelt tubing; ready for paving. by Metrolinx, on Flickr

5. Grading on top of the new accessibility platform; ready for paving. by Metrolinx, on Flickr

7. Paving the top coat of asphalt. by Metrolinx, on Flickr

8. Paving the accessible ramp; according to CROR (Canadain Rail Operating Rules), workers must cease their activities while a train is making its way through the site. by Metrolinx, on Flickr

9. Top coat of asphalt. by Metrolinx, on Flickr

10. Rehabilitation of the east pedestrian tunnel continues. by Metrolinx, on Flickr

11. Construction of an entirely new staircase linking the pedestrian tunnel and the east side of the platform. by Metrolinx, on Flickr

12. Construction of an entirely new staircase linking the pedestrian tunnel and the east side of the platform. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

July update on new Union station:


July 2014 - Union Station Revitalization Train Shed by Metrolinx, on Flickr


----------



## Zack Fair

*UP Express*

Renderings of the new platform at Union Station.



























Rendering of the new UP Express Bloor Station









DMU being tested in Rochelle, Illinois.


----------



## MrAronymous

Holy hell. That DMU looks like it's come straight from the 70s.


----------



## Zack Fair

Yeah, I hope we'll get something better looking once the line will be electrified.

They're getting the same type of DMU for the S.M.A.R.T. in California.


----------



## 00Zy99

Apparently those things are set up for easy conversion to electric operation.

Guess they'll be retained under wire.


----------



## billfranklin

I like the design. This is for a powerhouse Toronto. I like the tough, yet nice, style. Reminds me of a well designed wallet that will carry credit cards and cash very well.

(I often wonder about Toronto- do the movers and shakers have any real comprehension of just how huge and important the City is becoming?")


----------



## Zack Fair

I guess this is what we get with the current crash-worthiness standards and regulations. I don't mind the color scheme, BTW.


----------



## Zack Fair

Dundas


Upcoming WiFi installation at Dundas station by randyfmcdonald, on Flickr


----------



## zaphod

> Holy hell. That DMU looks like it's come straight from the 70s.


It looks like a late 1970s or early 1980s Winnebago. Even has the same color scheme.


----------



## Zack Fair

UPExpress' Nippon Shayro DMU being tested by Metra in Chicago.

Bound for Gresham by Robby.Gragg, on Flickr

35th Street DMU by Robby.Gragg, on Flickr


----------



## Zack Fair

Union

Things are getting together.


Union Station Second Platform by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


Union Station Second Platform by MafaldaBoy, on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ress-trains-arrive-in-canada.html?channel=542
> 
> *Toronto airport express trains arrive in Canada*
> Friday, August 15, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE FIRST two of 18 DMU cars being supplied by Sumitomo to Toronto transport authority Metrolinx for use on the Union Pearson Express (UP Express) airport rail link have arrived in Canada.
> 
> The fleet will be formed into two or three-car sets seating up to 180 passengers and comply with US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Tier 4 emissions standards
> 
> -etc-


----------



## ainvan

Omg, so ugly. What's up with the color scheme? It reminds me of something from North Korea.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Reminds me a bit Dallas DART which was made by the same company.


----------



## Scizoid.Trans.Prog.

The design of the box itself is very outdated, but the color scheme is making it even more bad... 

Ahh btw - anyone know where they will be serviced?


----------



## Zack Fair

Scizoid.Trans.Prog. said:


> The design of the box itself is very outdated, but the color scheme is making it even more bad...
> 
> Ahh btw - anyone know where they will be serviced?


It was mentioned in the last dimlys1994's post, three posts above yours, and we have been talking in the last pages as well... :| 
Those trains will be sere the Union-Pearson rail link.










About the design, these DMU are FRA complaint and they meet the same crashworthiness standards of larger, heavier locomotives. That's why we don't have (unfortunately) lighter and faster cool looking trains like those in Europe.


----------



## aznichiro115

Nouvellecosse said:


> Reminds me a bit Dallas DART which was made by the same company.


No they are not, the Dallas DART light rail trains are made by Kinki Sharyo, these are made by Nippon Sharyo, which are 2 different companies.


----------



## Zack Fair

I'm going to drop some pics of York Region Transit and its BRT service, VIVA. YRT provides service in the north eastern suburbs of Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham, and in general in the whole York Region.

York Region Transit 803 by YT | transport photography, on Flickr

York Region Transit 1036 by YT | transport photography, on Flickr

York Region Transit 520 by YT | transport photography, on Flickr

York Region Transit 1401 by YT | transport photography, on Flickr

York Region Transit 981 by YT | transport photography, on Flickr

*VIVA*

Viva 5130 by YT | transport photography, on Flickr

Viva 5223 by YT | transport photography, on Flickr

Viva 1392 by YT | transport photography, on Flickr

Viva 52xx - Interior by YT | transport photography, on Flickr

VIVA stations on Highway 7

Valleymede Viva Station by Sean_Marshall, on Flickr

2013 - VivaNext Highway 7 East Rapidways in Markham by Metrolinx, on Flickr

IMG_1825 by wyliepoon, on Flickr


----------



## Zack Fair

Testing of the Union Pearson Express DMU spotted at GO Mimico Station.

Union Pearson Express - Entering Mimico by SkyRail Productions Photography, on Flickr

Union Pearson Express - TMC by SkyRail Productions Photography, on Flickr

Union Pearson Express - Back to TMC by SkyRail Productions Photography, on Flickr


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## dimlys1994

^^Too ugly - give EMU fast


----------



## 00Zy99

dimlys1994 said:


> ^^Too ugly - give EMU fast


It'll be the same vehicles, just converted to electric propulsion.


----------



## Urbanista1

very ugly, and looks old.


----------



## Zack Fair

Urbanista1 said:


> very ugly, and looks old.


I'm more interested about the service they will provide rather than how they looks 

That said, the design is OK for me, nothing groundbreaking but it's solid. Althought, not a fan of the color scheme used.


----------



## dimlys1994

Union station, September:


Sept 2014 - Union Station Revitalization Train Shed by Metrolinx, on Flickr


----------



## naimabep

Zack Fair said:


> I'm more interested about the service they will provide rather than how they looks
> 
> That said, the design is OK for me, nothing groundbreaking but it's solid. Althought, not a fan of the color scheme used.


its not about the design which I think horrendous, its the colour scheme. Too many colours in one train is quite distracting.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Well I agree with both of you! The appearance is unattractive AND how they function is more important.


----------



## dimlys1994

Finally, TBMs for Eglinton Crosstown project arrived to launch site at Brentcliffe:


Sept 2014 - Eglinton Crosstown by Metrolinx, on Flickr

Plus some works on site:


Sept 2014 - Eglinton Crosstown by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Sept 2014 - Eglinton Crosstown by Metrolinx, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

What happened to the TBMs that built a few tunnels along the now-defunt Eglinton subway line? Are these the same ones?


----------



## saiho

hkskyline said:


> What happened to the TBMs that built a few tunnels along the now-defunt Eglinton subway line? Are these the same ones?


They never arrived. The Eglinton west subway line only got as far as excavating the launch box for the TBMs and I think a station box.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

just a note, but over 2km of the tunnel has been dug already, the new TBMs are for the second tunnel drive from the east instead of from the west.


----------



## dimlys1994

Already published in Canada Railways thread, but...:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...quires-toronto-commuter-line.html?channel=542
> 
> *Metrolinx acquires Toronto commuter line*
> Friday, September 26, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _TORONTO and Hamilton transit authority Metrolinx has announced it will acquire a 53km stretch of Canadian National's Guelph Subdivision from Georgetown to Kitchener in a deal worth $C 76m ($US 69m)_
> 
> The line is primarily used by Go Transit commuter services, although CN will retain running rights for freight trains following the transfer of ownership.
> 
> "Ontario is taking the next step towards two-way, all-day Regional Express Rail service along the Kitchener line," says Metrolinx president and CEO Mr Bruce McCuaig. "Ownership and control of our infrastructure is key to improving the existing service and planning for even more service on this line in the future."
> 
> Metrolinx has also acquired land in Kitchener for future train stabling facilities.
> 
> Go Transit will double its Kitchener - Toronto services in 2016.


So, there will be _RER.TO_


----------



## isaidso

Developments with GO Transit and Metrolinx are going to transform the Greater Golden Horseshoe. I think some of these cities on the periphery on Toronto are going to encounter mini population booms as a result; Hamilton especially.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

I wonder if it means growth downtown will slow as there will be less incentive for people to live downtown to avoid traffic congestion. Or maybe it will just mean a slowdown of residential growth that will be replaced with an upswing in office growth as the downtown will be a more appealing place to work for suburbanites.


----------



## isaidso

Nouvellecosse said:


> I wonder if it means growth downtown will slow as there will be less incentive for people to live downtown to avoid traffic congestion. Or maybe it will just mean a slowdown of residential growth that will be replaced with an upswing in office growth as the downtown will be a more appealing place to work for suburbanites.


Downtown growth won't slow as it's a highly desirable place to live and cuts down on commutes to work. It's places like North York, Scarborough, Etobicoke, and Mississauga that might see some of their growth move to points further out. Hamilton, Milton, Guelph, etc. are cheaper and great places to live, but weren't ever feasible if one worked in Toronto. They are too far and transit too restrictive. 

Improvements to GO Transit and Metrolinx will be a game changer for places further out. They will make commutes to Toronto faster with better service. These places will become viable options for people. It will be a shot in the arm for businesses. One can base a company in Guelph and have good access to everything else in the GGH. Integrating Waterloo Region more closely with Toronto will be a boon for tech. Overall, the whole region will benefit tremendously from these transportation upgrades.


----------



## isaidso

Integrating the GGH is smart planning. We're much stronger working together as one. The cities and towns it connects are home to 9.3 million people. It's an economic juggernaut with GDP around $500 billion.

*Greater Golden Horseshoe Transit Network, Spring 2012*


----------



## Innsertnamehere

what GO RER will likely do is increase employment growth in the downtown, as it will suddenly become extremely accessible for around 8 million people, though residential growth will likely stay the same or shrink slightly.
GO RER will be huge for regional nodes as well, due to its bi directional service. Currently there is little advantage to have a regional centre on a GO line as the trains only go into downtown in the mornings, while with GO RER people will be able to "go backwards" out towards these regional centres. Its actually a huge reason why all day 2 way GO service to Kitchener makes sense, as there is a large amount of people actually taking GO to Kitchener for work. Also interestingly, currently only around 20% of people who get on the GO train at Kitchener actually travel all the way downtown. Union will become much less important in the grand scheme of things for GO, currently over 90% of GOs trips start or end there but that will change with frequent service in both directions.

The crazy thing to think about is how fast GOs ridership will increase with this, its currently around 70 million annual trips (compare to the TTC at around 550 million), and its current annual growth rate is around 6%, well above population increases and other GTA transit agency growth rates (closer to 2%). I wouldn't be surprised if annual growth goes up towards 10-12% as RER begins to be implemented. GO will be a lot more important and a much more well used service in Toronto in the coming years.


----------



## isaidso

Agree. Hamilton, Waterloo, and Oshawa will become bigger regional nodes with GO RER. A lot of business people in these cities set up in Toronto instead because their own cities are too far from everything in downtown Toronto. This will allow many of them to grow their businesses where they're from. 

Waterloo is an especially interesting case because it has one of the highest start up rates in the world. Better connections to Toronto will only make them stronger.


10 Busiest Regional Rail Systems in north America (Average Weekday Q4 2013)

1. Long Island Rail Road - New York City/Long Island: 334,100
2. New Jersey Transit Rail Operations - North Jersey/New York City/Philadelphia/Atlantic City: 302,000 
3. Metro-North Railroad - New York City/New Haven/Poughkeepsie: 298,700
4. Metra - Chicago: 292,600
5. GO Transit - Toronto: 197,000
6. SEPTA Regional Rail - Philadelphia: 130,900
7. MBTA Commuter Rail - Boston: 124,400
8. Agence métropolitaine de transport - Montreal: 74,100
9. Caltrain - San Francisco/San Jose: 50,800
10. Metrolink - Los Angeles: 40,800


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commut...ist_of_North_American_commuter_rail_operators


----------



## Gil

Markotic said:


> What? What??? What drugs are you on? Let me know, because my friend may be very interested in them, for I have not heard such a wrong statement.
> 
> The sheppard subway indeed gets huge ridership.


Does it just seem like huge ridership because they run with shorter trains and as a consequence the stations have been temporarily shortened to accommodate them? When the City and TTC were in dire financial straits why did they consider shutting the line down?

Despite all of the condos lining Sheppard, there's still horrendous traffic along the street and the cross-streets. Weren't they supposed to be attracted to the subway running along the street?


----------



## Markotic

Gil said:


> Does it just seem like huge ridership because they run with shorter trains and as a consequence the stations have been temporarily shortened to accommodate them? When the City and TTC were in dire financial straits why did they consider shutting the line down?
> 
> Despite all of the condos lining Sheppard, there's still horrendous traffic along the street and the cross-streets. Weren't they supposed to be attracted to the subway running along the street?


I don't see why shortened stations have anything to do with anything relevant here. The stations are absolutely fine. 
The article was written in a time when times were hard, and of course they need to scream little to get a little. Notice that they say that the ridership was some 40,000 at the time - now ridership on sheppard is 50,000ish. Those are very respectable numbers. For one to call that empty is downright very troubling. 
The problem with Sheppard is that it is not longer. It needs to be longer. For example, it should connect to the spadina line, and it should go further east also. That way it would have much more use, much more value, much more ridership. As a stub line it is doing great and amazing.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

The Eglinton bus currently handles more people than the Sheppard subway... Look, around 90% of Sheppard's ridership goes from Don Mills to Yonge, the intermediate stations get very little use. This essentailly says that by extending it you simply let the same people get on at the end of the line further down.

Sheppard is very underused, period if the full line was constructed ridership would probably double, but then you would end up with a line running at half the capacity as bloor but with the same length. Eglinton is going to be even more lightly used, thus the LRT.


----------



## Zack Fair

From Urban Toronto



agoraflaneur said:


> *Dundas West + Bloor UPX Station* Oct. 11:


----------



## Zack Fair

Streetcars back on the Queen's Quay and at Union Station, videos by drum118 at Urban Toronto.


----------



## Nexis




----------



## skyfann

How long is the undergroundtram route?


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## dimlys1994

skyfann said:


> How long is the undergroundtram route?


Eglinton Crosstown line will be 19 km long. Plus approximately 1 km of underground streetcar tracks. (700 m for Union-Queens Quay/York St section, appr. 100 m of St. Clair West tunnel and appr. 200 m for Spandina loop). The results measured with help of Google Maps measuring


----------



## dimlys1994

Construction of new BRT lane in Mississauga, western part of Greater Toronto. Erin Mills station:


October 2014 by Metrolinx, on Flickr


October 2014 by Metrolinx, on Flickr


October 2014 by Metrolinx, on Flickr


October 2014 by Metrolinx, on Flickr


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## Innsertnamehere

Eglinton will be comprised of 7 portions, 4 underground sections, 2 surface portions, and elevated portion. Heading east from Kennedy station, the LRT runs underground for around 400 meters, and then comes to the surface. It then runs in median, crossing 13 stoplights over 5.6km before dropping underground again to cross under Don Mills Avenue. The tunnel under Don Mills lasts for around 400 meters, and emerges again on the surface. It runs 1.2km on the surface again, crossing a single stoplight, before going underground for the central tunnel. The tunnel runs 10.6km, emerging just east of Black Creek. It then transitions into an elevated section over Black Creek Drive, which is roughly 400 meters long, and then dives underground for a final time for around 150 meters to reach the terminal station.


Once all of the LRT lines are constructed Toronto will have roughly 12.7km of new tunnels, as the Sheppard LRT also contains a 1km LRT tunnel in it. 

Toronto currently has 29km of underground transit funded, technically. 

Total funded:

27km Rapid Transit (subway / grade seperated LRT)
31km LRT (in median not grade seperated)
1.4km Streetcar 
36km BRT


----------



## jay stew

How does tonight's mayoral election affect the future of Toronto transit?


----------



## saiho

jay stew said:


> How does tonight's mayoral election affect the future of Toronto transit?


Nothing really, in 4 years we will vote in another mayor that will undo what the previous mayor did, for better or for worse.


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## Zack Fair

saiho said:


> Nothing really, in 4 years we will vote in another mayor that will undo what the previous mayor did, for better or for worse.


You sound delusional.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

sounds cynical to me, not delusional. A jab at how nothing ever gets done because the next mayor just changes it.


What it does mean for sure is that the Scarborough subway is safe, but beyond that it is unknown really. Tory was very vague on his transit platform beyond Smart-Track which is impossible to build in its proposed form, so I really think we will see in the next year or so what this election actually means for transit.


----------



## Zack Fair

Innsertnamehere said:


> What it does mean for sure is that the Scarborough subway is safe, but beyond that it is unknown really. Tory was very vague on his transit platform beyond *Smart-Track which is impossible to build *in its proposed form, so I really think we will see in the next year or so what this election actually means for transit.


Care to explain it? I'm not really into transit discussion, did I miss something? Why do you think it's so difficult to build? Smart track looks like a GO RER on steroids, with more stops and (maybe?) subway rolling stock.


----------



## Gil

Zack Fair said:


> Care to explain it? I'm not really into transit discussion, did I miss something? Why do you think it's so difficult to build? Smart track looks like a GO RER on steroids, with more stops and (maybe?) subway rolling stock.












The proposal called for the Smart Track line to come off the rail corridor at Eglinton and then head west. With a stop at the Mt. Dennis where the switch is made. In order to complete that line as depicted homes and businesses would need to be expropriated. If the line uses the same type of trains that GO Transit uses on the corridor even more will need to be expropriated as they require a larger turning radius. It has also been noted that several plots of land along Eglinton which the line would run had already been sold off for development, requiring the line to either run deep below them or be shoehorned into the Eglinton Ave. ROW.

There's been little in terms of details regarding whether or not this is an independent plan or if he's just piggybacking on a Metrolinx project hoping to get the credit for it. The central and western portions of the route seem anemic in terms of the number of stations compared to what Scarborough will get coupled with the subway City Council had earlier agreed on. 

There are also concerns about whether or not Union Station can handle the additional traffic. The City's Downtown Relief Line was mindful of this issue and was looking at the best place to distribute passengers though downtown. That particular project appears to have been relegated to the back burner with Mr. Tory's scheme.

Had the Smart Track continued along the rail corridor into northern Etobicoke it would not only serve more people who need the improvement, but it would also free up the Eglinton LRT to continue westwards as a natural extension of the line. Hopefully once they actually see the obstacles in creating the line as is they will reconsider and fine tune the design.


----------



## AbstractEntity

So is there any chance an Eglinton heavy rail subway line is still in the planning?

I think extending the Bloor line to Square One would be a good idea.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

Smart Track is proposing this:

15 minute service using EMUs, so not GO trains or subway trains.

Something like this:










Now, there are 3 major problems with the proposed alignment, and a ton of illogical choices (though possible choices) for station placements.

Number 1 of the three is the alignment on Eglinton. It presumes to use what is known as the Richview expressway corridor, a stretch of land along Eglinton that sits empty as Eglinton was originally planned to be upgraded to a freeway to meet up with the 400 extension, both of which never happened. Now this makes sense on the surface, however this land has in fact recently been sold off, and there are several townhome projects underway along it. This mistake was apparently made due to the election crew using outdated satellite imagery from 2009, not even a site visit.

This causes issues of course now as there is no land to run the trains, and will require tunnelling through many sections. Then there is the issue of getting off the rail corridor onto Eglinton though Mount Dennis, a historic main street community. The train will have to enter a tunnel at some point, arrive at an underground station somehow constructed below the neighborhood to interchange with the Eglinton LRT, and then turn almost 90 degrees underground and navigate a valley before popping up again on Eglinton. Then it will probably have to duck down underground again to go under the aforementioned townhome developments. Probably a $2 billion or more project, to run a small train every 15 minutes through a low density neighborhood. 

For comparision, the Eglinton LRT extension through the area is expected to cost around $500 million, and has no tunnelling issues as it runs in the middle of the street and the station around Mount Dennis is already being constructed as part of phase 1. 


Number 2 of issues is Union station. Union Station is currently undergoing over a Billion dollars in upgrades to increase capacity and deal with GO transits 6%+ annual ridership growth for the coming decades, up to around 2035. Smart Track was obviously not accounted for in these upgrades, and is expected to bring it up to capacity on opening day. Forget capacity increases, Union will be just as overloaded as today with Smart-Track (provided the ridership projections for Smart-Track are true, which I find unlikely, but that is another issue). on opening day, apparently 2021 (unlikely given the need for extensive tunnelling which is at minimum a 10 year process), 15 years ahead of schedule. Union will then have to start some other form of capacity expansion, or still languish in a severely over capacity state.

Issue number 3 is the Stouffville corridor, the part that Tory wants it to run on through Scarborough and up to Markham. This corridor is wide enough to fit 2 tracks in it, which is enough for the planned GO service on the corridor, but not the GO service plus Smart-Track. Now Tory could argue to cancel the GO service, but that would do nothing but piss off the people who live north of Unionville on the line. The two simply cannot fit together on the line, period. No amount of money, unlike the last two problems, can fix this one.


Then there is the issue of budget, ridership, capacity, etc. that all hit immediate and fairly obvious issues. A budget that at first glance appears far overestimated (Metrolinx is talking about electrifying and bringing the entire GO network up to 15 minute frequencies for $12 billion, how the hell does it cost $8 billion to do the same on 2 lines?), Ridership is way too optimistic given how the line hits almost 0 trip generators and generally runs through low density areas (especially the stupidly expensive Eglinton Spur), but even then, if the ridership projections did turn out to be true, the line would be horribly over capacity with 15 minute frequencies, etc.


Then of course the part where GO transit is already planning to do most of what Tory is planning to do, making most of the project redundant.

What I am thinking will happen / hoping to happen is that we will see smart track sort of quietly rolled into GO electrification with a few extra stations and integrated fares (both of which GO is already planning, but they can play it up as though it is Smart-Track), the Eglinton spur die a quiet death, and the city can move on to getting the DRL built.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

AbstractEntity said:


> So is there any chance an Eglinton heavy rail subway line is still in the planning?
> 
> I think extending the Bloor line to Square One would be a good idea.


Eglinton is getting the LRT, so no, no heavy rail subway.

Subway to Square One is also a dumb idea and will not be happening.


----------



## saiho

Innsertnamehere said:


> Number 1 of the three is the alignment on Eglinton. It presumes to use what is known as the Richview expressway corridor, a stretch of land along Eglinton that sits empty as Eglinton was originally planned to be upgraded to a freeway to meet up with the 400 extension, both of which never happened. Now this makes sense on the surface, however this land has in fact recently been sold off, and there are several townhome projects underway along it. This mistake was apparently made due to the election crew using outdated satellite imagery from 2009, not even a site visit.


I think the move to Eglinton was so they don't have to build phase 2 of the Crosstown LRT. If I remember correctly he didn't support any LRT in early days of his campaign and then he supported Finch and Sheppard LRTs near the end from Oliva Chow's pressuring questions about it. 



Innsertnamehere said:


> Issue number 3 is the Stouffville corridor, the part that Tory wants it to run on through Scarborough and up to Markham. This corridor is wide enough to fit 2 tracks in it, which is enough for the planned GO service on the corridor, but not the GO service plus Smart-Track. Now Tory could argue to cancel the GO service, but that would do nothing but piss off the people who live north of Unionville on the line. The two simply cannot fit together on the line, period. No amount of money, unlike the last two problems, can fix this one.


They could put passing tracks at the stations for Regional / Local service. From what I seen Kennedy and Agincourt have parking lots that can be removed for it. IDK if there is enough room for 4 tracks + platform just an idea. 



Innsertnamehere said:


> Ridership is way too optimistic given how the line hits almost 0 trip generators and generally runs through low density areas (especially the stupidly expensive Eglinton Spur), but even then, if the ridership projections did turn out to be true, the line would be horribly over capacity with 15 minute frequencies, etc.


There are or will be some big trip generators saying 0 is a little harsh:
*Markham City Center* - Huge tech center with lots of blue chip companies based there along the Viva BRT
*Airport Corporate Center* - Lots of offices
*Airport* - given how close it will be shuttles will probably operate to and from it. Unless UP express or the GTAA bars that from happening due to lost revenue.
*Liberty Village* - Didn't they have one the world's first _crowdfunded_ bus route paralleling the 504 King Car because even areas "well served" by transit are not actually getting good service. 
*Pacific Mall Area* one of the GTA's eight Chinatowns with 1 million SF of Asian retail in 3 adjacent malls. Not including the numerous other retail that surrounds it. It is planned to expand to 2 million SF with each mall drawing up expansion plans. One of the biggest concerns of building that much mall space is the poor transit options of the area. FYI for comparison Yorkdale is 1.5 million SF and has a subway connection.
*DOWNTOWN * no need to explain here.
*Agincourt* - Toronto's other Chinatown with significant amount of retail and medium density along the Sheppard LRT. Long time residents of Toronto knows what its nickname is. 



Innsertnamehere said:


> Then of course the part where GO transit is already planning to do most of what Tory is planning to do, making most of the project redundant.


Well Tory "brought in" the idea of using the GO lines to serve the 416. Something GO acknowledges it can do but it really hesitant about even post - electrification. Also using EMUs (assuming he had EMUs in mind he was very vague about it) GO transit's electrification report states that they prefer to use electric locos with double deck consists a la NJ Transit. These 2 decisions probably affected GO's direction on how to improve the network. (If they got additional 416 stations they would prefer EMUs and vice versa) Also timeline advantages. GO says it will eventually electrify its rail lines but the completion timeline is very loose or non-existent, falling under the subject to funding pitfall. Tory has a time-frame and funding strategies for it. (however extremely questionable they both will be, it's the thought that counts )

On the TTC side the idea fare integration with GO. Transit Advocates have been talking about it for years and the media for months but it's nice to see it being official in mayoral platforms. Not saying Smart track is revolutionary or original (well it is to the general public) or the best plan but it does bring ideas to the forefront. 



Innsertnamehere said:


> the Eglinton spur die a quiet death, and the city can move on to getting the DRL built.


+1 no need for political Bullcrap


----------



## swimmer_spe

What will happen to the ROW of the SRT once the extension is built? Why are they not able to keep the SRT running while they dig the tunnels?


----------



## jay stew

I'm going to Toronto in a few weeks and I need to know where I can buy a weekly pass at.


----------



## Nexis

dimlys1994 said:


> Toronto-York Spadina Subway Extension tunnel:
> 
> 
> Tunnel vision by @416Shots, on Flickr


Why is the 3rd rail on both sides?


----------



## Innsertnamehere

jay stew said:


> I'm going to Toronto in a few weeks and I need to know where I can buy a weekly pass at.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=TTC+weekly+pass


The SRT primarly runs in the ROW of the Stouffville GO line, actually, so the ROW will be returned for GO transit's use. The section which is elevated and runs outside of that row has yet to be determined, but it will presumably be abandoned. the SRT will remain operational during construction, BTW.

There is not a second 3rd rail as that photo would suggest, its a modified image which has been reflected in the middle. Notice both sides of the tunnel wall are the exact same. Photoshop.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

York University subway station is progressing, set to open in late 2016 or early 2017.


----------



## Scizoid.Trans.Prog.

Nexis said:


> Why is the 3rd rail on both sides?


That is a photoshop - someone did a photo, cropped it in halfway (deleted one side), then duplicated the other side and pasted it symmetrically in the place of deleted side.


----------



## dimlys1994

Renewed facade of Union station:
http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2015/01/years-work-revealed-union-station-gets-unwrapped


----------



## Innsertnamehere

interesting how the inscription says that it was built in 1919 (MCMXIX), but it didn't actually open until 1927..


----------



## city_thing

dimlys1994 said:


> More clearer map of Fastrack:


There's a station called "Old Cummer"? lol!

And that proposed station looks really fantastic.


----------



## isaidso

If you're referring to Vaughan Centre station I'd agree. It's a welcome step up from what we normally get.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

city_thing said:


> There's a station called "Old Cummer"? lol!
> 
> And that proposed station looks really fantastic.


I always had to laugh at that name too! It makes me imagine some perverted old man doing inappropriate things in the bushes.


----------



## Nexis

Nouvellecosse said:


> I always had to laugh at that name too! It makes me imagine some perverted old man doing inappropriate things in the bushes.


It seems to have Erupted :lol: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/water-main-break-at-old-cummer-go-station-capped-1.2898814


----------



## Innsertnamehere

lol, there is a subway station in the planning phases named Cummer too, but it will probably be renamed Drewry when it reaches construction as the road that is its namesake changes name as it crosses over. All the current planning documents call it Cummer though.


----------



## dwdwone

I'll bet that guy got teased a lot at school.


----------



## dimlys1994

Breaking news - Crosstown's West tunnel TBM broke through into the extraction shaft at Allen Road:


----------



## jay stew

I've been in Toronto for a few days now and I'll just say that I haven't been on the new streetcars but I've only seen them running on Spadina Avenue.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

they are only on spadina right now, there have been delays in delivery from Bombardier meaning that there are a lot fewer in service than there were supposed to be at this point.


----------



## Jim856796

Two-part post about the Union-Pearson Express:

1. The Mount Dennis Station on the Eglinton Crosstown Line will potentially have a connection with the GO Transit Kitchener Line. Will the Union-Pearson express serve any Mount Dennis station on the Kitchener Line or bypass it?

2. The Union-Pearson Express will be the most expensive airport rail link to ride in North America. Most Toronto-based customers would pay $19; Those without a PRESTO card would pay $27.50. A "family" ticket (which is only available to non-PRESTO customers) would be $55.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ects-nomad-wi-fi-for-seamless-experience.html
> 
> *UP Express selects Nomad wi-fi for seamless experience*
> 05 Feb 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CANADA: Nomad Digital is to supply station and passenger wi-fi technology for the Union Pearson Express service, which will provide a direct link between Toronto’s main station and international airport when it launches this year.
> 
> Announcing the contract on February 5, Nomad said it would offer a ‘best-in-class’ wi-fi service, including seamless platform-to-train roaming, a portal with multi-lingual and wide device support, and real-time customer support for passengers
> 
> ...


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Wow, that picture is right out of the 70s.


----------



## jay stew

I saw an UP Express train moving last week, didn't get a picture though.


----------



## ssiguy2

The colours remind me of the horrid light green and yellow-beige fridges of the 1970s. 
Those trains already look like they are 40 years old.


----------



## jay stew

Pics I took:


Hockey Knights in Canada by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Hockey Knights in Canada by JE Smooth, on Flickr


GO Transit trains by JE Smooth, on Flickr


North York Centre by JE Smooth, on Flickr


501 Streetcar on Queen Street West by JE Smooth, on Flickr


St. George Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


St. George Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


St. George Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Osgoode Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Osgoode Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Osgoode Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


St. George Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Bathurst Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Untitled by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Spadina Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


510 Spadina Streetcar on Spadina Avenue by JE Smooth, on Flickr


510 Spadina Streetcar on Spadina Avenue by JE Smooth, on Flickr


510 Spadina on Spadina Avenue by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Untitled by JE Smooth, on Flickr

I have more coming soon...


----------



## Nexis

Oh my , someone had a Transit adventure eh...


----------



## jay stew

Nexis said:


> Oh my , someone had a Transit adventure eh...


Believe it or not, it was my first time on a rapid transit system.


----------



## Nexis

jay stew said:


> Believe it or not, it was my first time on a rapid transit system.


Well , you certainly covered it well. Did you ride any Go commuter lines?


----------



## jay stew

Nexis said:


> Well , you certainly covered it well. Did you ride any Go commuter lines?


No, just the subway and streetcars. I only rode the bus when I was coming and going to the airport.


----------



## Falubaz

https://flic.kr/p/r6XsWN
Did Toronto number its metro lines? No more colors?


----------



## MrAronymous

Last time I checked yellow, green and purple are colours.


----------



## jay stew

Falubaz said:


> https://flic.kr/p/r6XsWN
> Did Toronto number its metro lines? No more colors?


The TTC started numbering the lines last year.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

yellow, green, purple, and blue. The Eglinton Line will be orange, apparently.

Yellow and Green are the two main ones, the other two are short, underused lines.

Also, before they numbered them, the lines went by names instead of colours. Line 1 (Yellow) was the Yonge-University-Spadina Line, Line 2 (Green) was the Bloor-Danforth Line, Line 3 (Blue) was "the Scarborough Rapid Transit Line, and Line 4 (Purple) was the Sheppard Line.

What Toronto's map looks like today:










Future (apologies for the small size). Note that this map is old, the Blue line will now be replaced with an extension of the green line. 

Orange is the Eglinton LRT, of which roughly 1/2 of which will run underground as a subway. The other half will run above ground in the middle of the road in exclusive lanes. The other two line additions, Sheppard and Finch, are both in median LRT lines running in exclusive lanes.


----------



## jay stew

Untitled by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Untitled by JE Smooth, on Flickr


You had one job by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Yorkdale Shopping Centre by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Yorkdale Shopping Centre by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Bloor-Yonge Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Our Nell by John Boyle at Queen Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Our Nell by John Boyle at Queen Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Our Nell by John Boyle at Queen Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Queen Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


----------



## Gil

Here's the new numbering scheme:










The 7 Finch West line is missing:









They've also renamed (shortened) the 1 Yonge-University-Spadina to just Yonge-University Line and the 3 is now simply the Scarborough Line.










The new signs with the line number (above the St. George in the foreground) have the directional arrow missing compared to the previous version. There's certainly room for it on the new sign.










They're not exactly necessary, but it helps if there are no trains in the station tell you which direction the train is heading in. Especially if you're new to or unfamiliar with the system.


----------



## jay stew

Last batch:


King Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


King Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


King Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


King Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Untitled by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Untitled by JE Smooth, on Flickr


St. Clair West Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


St. Clair West Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Museum Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Museum Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Museum Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


Eglinton Station by JE Smooth, on Flickr


----------



## Falubaz

So the '6' will be a totally new, independend from the Shepards Line? No just the extension of the '4'?


----------



## saiho

Falubaz said:


> So the '6' will be a totally new, independend from the Shepards Line? No just the extension of the '4'?


6 is an LRT and 4 is a subway


----------



## swimmer_spe

saiho said:


> 6 is an LRT and 4 is a subway


I wonder if they could make it like the Blue Line in Boston. It has both cantenary and 3rd rail. It switches to the other at one station between the tunneled and at grade portions of the line.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

I'm sure they could physically do it, but there are challenges that would make it expensive. The subway is high floor and the LRT is planned as low floor so they either have to change what is planned for the LRT and make it high floor (which would take more street space in addition to the expense) or renovate all the subway platforms. Also the subway cars are 3.2m wide and most LRT cars are about 2.6m wide so they'd either have to make the LRT wider (and take up more road space than planned) or make the subway platforms narrower through yet another tunnel modification. Such renos would no doubt require subway closure which would be disruptive. And the rolling stock would be unique to that line rather than being the same as the subway or the other LRT sections which would add cost and maintenance complexity.

Just depends on how much trouble and cost is worth while just to save a single transfer.


----------



## swimmer_spe

Nouvellecosse said:


> I'm sure they could physically do it, but there are challenges that would make it expensive. The subway is high floor and the LRT is planned as low floor so they either have to change what is planned for the LRT and make it high floor (which would take more street space in addition to the expense) or renovate all the subway platforms. Also the subway cars are 3.2m wide and most LRT cars are about 2.6m wide so they'd either have to make the LRT wider (and take up more road space than planned) or make the subway platforms narrower through yet another tunnel modification. Such renos would no doubt require subway closure which would be disruptive. And the rolling stock would be unique to that line rather than being the same as the subway or the other LRT sections which would add cost and maintenance complexity.
> 
> Just depends on how much trouble and cost is worth while just to save a single transfer.


You do know that currently the Subways and Streetcars run at a special Toronto Gauge. The SRT is Standard Gauge. The Eglinton Crosstown is also being built to Standard Gauge.

They already have different cars for different lines. There is no reason they could not do it for the Sheppard LRT. It would still have the same rail gauge as the Streetcars and Subways, it would just have a dual power system.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

The rail gauge means the width between the rails. That has nothing to do with either of the things I mentioned which is total width and boarding level of the vehicles.


----------



## swimmer_spe

Nouvellecosse said:


> The rail gauge means the width between the rails. That has nothing to do with either of the things I mentioned which is total width and boarding level of the vehicles.


You are correct. 

However, what I am trying to point out is that the TTC already has cars of different designs.

Since the Sheppard Line is underused, they could close it, modify the height and then it will be at LRT levels. They may even be able to put in overhead wires if there is space.

I just think that the Sheppard line and LRT are going to be like the Bloor line and the SRT.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Well I'm sure all this is certainly doable. A politician in Montreal also proposed to make the blue line into an LRT to allow it to continue at street level to the east toward Anjou and to the west into NDG but nothing ever came of it. But I agree that all those transfers certainly isn't ideal.


----------



## swimmer_spe

Nouvellecosse said:


> Well I'm sure all this is certainly doable. A politician in Montreal also proposed to make the blue line into an LRT to allow it to continue at street level to the east toward Anjou and to the west into NDG but nothing ever came of it. But I agree that all those transfers certainly isn't ideal.



Is there much of a difference between the Streetcar tunnels and the Subway tunnels in Toronto?


----------



## Nouvellecosse

There aren't really any full streetcar tunnels yet, just a couple of short sections where the streetcar goes underground to connect with a subway station, but has it's own separate platform. The Eglinton line will be the first tunnel that the streetcar actually uses to travel underground between stations (although not the same streetcars in the rest of the system). The only one that I've used is at Union which has very low platforms which are basically just like the curb on a street.


----------



## swimmer_spe

Nouvellecosse said:


> There aren't really any full streetcar tunnels yet, just a couple of short sections where the streetcar goes underground to connect with a subway station, but has it's own separate platform. The Eglinton line will be the first tunnel that the streetcar actually uses to travel underground between stations (although not the same streetcars in the rest of the system). The only one that I've used is at Union which has very low platforms which are basically just like the curb on a street.


Why could they not build a higher curb on the Sheppard LRT? Build it only at the stations.


----------



## saiho

swimmer_spe said:


> Why could they not build a higher curb on the Sheppard LRT? Build it only at the stations.


There is not enough room for a high platform on the street. Like the posts above its not impossible to merge the subway and the LRT, just not worth the effort.


----------



## swimmer_spe

saiho said:


> There is not enough room for a high platform on the street. Like the posts above its not impossible to merge the subway and the LRT, just not worth the effort.


Look at how they did the platforms on Roncesvalles Ave. They could make them higher.

To make the Sheppard line more than just a stubline, why would it not be worth the effort?


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Well to be clear, it isn't just a matter of effort (time, planning, etc) but also of money. There is a finite amount of money you can spend and planners just have to make the judgment call as to where to spend it - either to serve more people with rail transit by devoting all the money to the new lines, or more conveniently serve fewer people after spending so much on modifying an existing line that we can't afford to extend the new line as far. 

They seem to have made that judgment, and maybe they're right or maybe you're right. Hard to say!


----------



## Innsertnamehere

the transfer at Don Mills will literally involve walking 10 feet across a platform.


----------



## swimmer_spe

Innsertnamehere said:


> the transfer at Don Mills will literally involve walking 10 feet across a platform.


Or, stay on the train and go further.


----------



## saiho

swimmer_spe said:


> Look at how they did the platforms on Roncesvalles Ave. They could make them higher.
> 
> To make the Sheppard line more than just a stubline, why would it not be worth the effort?


Roncesvalles Ave stops are more like streetcar bulbs or curb extensions. Sheppard is more akin to Spadina with islands as platforms. Engineers didn't want a narrow high platform. What you are comparing is two different things. In addition Roncesvalles Ave would still be very tight for high platforms. You don't just simply make the platform higher the additional starts and ramps take up alot of space and the structure's girth with impact the neighborhood streetscape.


----------



## Woonsocket54

*Installation of platform screen doors and ticket vending machines for the airport rail link*









https://www.facebook.com/UnionPears...8209359203442/929450910412619/?type=1&theater









https://www.facebook.com/UnionPears...8049460552764/928049153886128/?type=1&theater









https://www.facebook.com/UnionPears...8049460552764/928049157219461/?type=1&theater

Source: Union Pearson Express anglophone Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/UnionPearsonExpressEN)


----------



## Gil

Woonsocket54 said:


> https://www.facebook.com/UnionPears...8049460552764/928049153886128/?type=1&theater
> 
> Source: Union Pearson Express anglophone Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/UnionPearsonExpressEN)


Question: What is that supposed to be in the hand with the 1 and 2? Tickets? We did away with $1 and $2 bills before the turn of the millennium and $2 bills are a rarity in the US if it came from the manufacturer. Isn't the icon for tickets the upright hand holding a ticket like this?


----------



## dimlys1994

Website launched for Bloor-Danforth line extension to Scarborough:
http://www.scarboroughsubwayextension.ca/index.html


----------



## dimlys1994

Plus some progress on GO Transit station upgrading - Malton station, these photos taken by Metrolinx in December last year:


Completing electrical work to support the new shelter, stairs, etc. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Demolishing the old stairwell to build a glass-enclosed one with more natural light by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Compacting material to preparation for caisson drilling. Caissons will support the new stairs, mini-ramp, canopy, etc. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


Foundation for a new shelter, one of which will be integrated into platform-length canopy by Metrolinx, on Flickr

One more progress - on new James North station in Hamilton:
http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2015/02/metrolinx-begins-early-works-go-transit-expansion










And another upgrade:



> http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2015/02/metrolinx-begins-early-works-go-transit-expansion
> 
> *Metrolinx Begins Early Works for GO Transit Expansion*
> February 12, 2015 3:00 pm
> 
> ...
> 
> The biggest news to come out lately for GO Transit's early works on the GO RER program was the addition of 5km of track to the Stouffville Line. The line already has a roughly 1.5km long "passing track", running to the south of the 407, although it is considered too short for any truly useful purposes. The construction of an additional 5km of passing track will allow GO transit to introduce all day train service to the line. Construction of the additional track, which will upon completion run from Unionville to Agincourt stations, is expected to begin in the spring, with the full double tracking of the line from Kennedy to Unionville to begin in 2016. Upon completion of the initial passing track, GO will be able to provide hourly off-peak services on the line to Mount Joy station, and upon completion of the full double tracking, capable of 30 minute service to Unionville and hourly to Mount Joy. Eventually, GO plans to electrify the line and provide 15 minute service, however details on that portion of the project are still forthcoming
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Original Service plan for the Stouffville line, from the Stouffville Railway Corridor Expansion Study_
> 
> ...


----------



## Falubaz

>


Is the airport link going to have a dedicated platform at Union St.?


----------



## dimlys1994

Falubaz said:


> Is the airport link going to have a dedicated platform at Union St.?


Exactly, at SkyWalk walkway


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Gil said:


> Question: What is that supposed to be in the hand with the 1 and 2? Tickets? We did away with $1 and $2 bills before the turn of the millennium and $2 bills are a rarity in the US if it came from the manufacturer. Isn't the icon for tickets the upright hand holding a ticket like this?


The person is holding the two tickets they've just purchased for themself and a travel companion and the tickets are labeled first and second in case members of the general public can't count. :crazy2:


----------



## swimmer_spe

Is it time to bring back Interlining, but, do it right?

Riding the subway, I noticed that most of the train empties at the transfer with lines 1 and 2. Decades ago, they tried to run 2 lines on one set of tracks. As I understand it, it was an abysmal failure.

So, that got me thinking. What if they did it right?

Here is my vision of it:
1) dig 2 tunnel under line 1 from Bloor down to Union on both sides of the U.
2) on the U, the new tunnels would have stations on Queen and College Streets.
3) Line 2 would go through Bay, then turn onto the U, then turn back towards bay and continue. 
4) Bay would have 2 levels(They already exist). The top level would be for east west traffic to their terminals, the lower level would be east or west, going to Union.

This would ease congestion on line 1 south of Bloor.


----------



## Woonsocket54

*2015.03.09 - Union Pearson Express (airport rail link) test ride*









Laura Pedersen/National Post
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/0...irst-look-at-torontos-downtown-airport-train/









Laura Pedersen/National Post
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/0...irst-look-at-torontos-downtown-airport-train/









Laura Pedersen/National Post
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/0...irst-look-at-torontos-downtown-airport-train/

airport station








Laura Pedersen/National Post
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/0...irst-look-at-torontos-downtown-airport-train/









Laura Pedersen/National Post
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/0...irst-look-at-torontos-downtown-airport-train/









Laura Pedersen/National Post
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/0...irst-look-at-torontos-downtown-airport-train/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-117/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-097/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-197/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-041/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-196/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-073/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-119/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-232/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-167/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-150/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-050/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-201/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-070/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-059/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-001/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-113/









http://torontoist.com/2015/03/riding-the-union-pearson-express/slide/20150309-torontoist-up-026/


----------



## Nouvellecosse

swimmer_spe said:


> Is it time to bring back Interlining, but, do it right?
> 
> Riding the subway, I noticed that most of the train empties at the transfer with lines 1 and 2. Decades ago, they tried to run 2 lines on one set of tracks. As I understand it, it was an abysmal failure.
> 
> So, that got me thinking. What if they did it right?
> 
> Here is my vision of it:
> 1) dig 2 tunnel under line 1 from Bloor down to Union on both sides of the U.
> 2) on the U, the new tunnels would have stations on Queen and College Streets.
> 3) Line 2 would go through Bay, then turn onto the U, then turn back towards bay and continue.
> 4) Bay would have 2 levels(They already exist). The top level would be for east west traffic to their terminals, the lower level would be east or west, going to Union.
> 
> This would ease congestion on line 1 south of Bloor.


That would ease congestion but wouldn't be much (if any) cheaper than building a separate "downtown relief line" that's been talked about for years, but this plan would probably disrupt current operations on both existing lines more, and wouldn't have stations serving any new areas.


----------



## swimmer_spe

Nouvellecosse said:


> That would ease congestion but wouldn't be much (if any) cheaper than building a separate "downtown relief line" that's been talked about for years, but this plan would probably disrupt current operations on both existing lines more, and wouldn't have stations serving any new areas.


I still do not understand how the DRL will actually relieve congestion on the downtown portion of line 1.

Yes, there will be new stations, and yes, there iwll be new connections to line 2, but, I do not see it actually relieving the line 1


----------



## Nouvellecosse

The main source of overcrowding on line 1 is that people coming into downtown on line 2 often transfer onto line one particularly at Yonge-Bloor station. So you have the trains already full on line 1 coming in from the north from places like North York, and then a huge number of additional people trying to transfer onto the downtown section of line 1 to go farther south. The relief line is intended to allow people from line 2 to get to the southern part of downtown like around Front, King or Queen without having to squeeze onto the already full line 1. The transfer points would be further east and west on line 2.


----------



## hkskyline




----------



## dimlys1994

More on Union station renovation:


Staircase from University Avenue to the new North-West PATH tunnel by Metrolinx, on Flickr


New stairs between the York East Teamway and Front Street by Metrolinx, on Flickr


New North-West PATH tunnel by Metrolinx, on Flickr


A newly created staircase between the concourse and platform levels by Metrolinx, on Flickr


York Concourse taking shape by Metrolinx, on Flickr


GO Customer Service desk in the new York Concourse by Metrolinx, on Flickr


GO Customer Service desk in the new York Concourse by Metrolinx, on Flickr


GO Customer Service desk in the new York Concourse by Metrolinx, on Flickr


York East Teamway looking north towards Front Street by Metrolinx, on Flickr


----------



## blacktrojan3921

Now that Scarborough RT is going to be absorbed into the Bloor-Danforth; I wonder which of these proposed lines is going to take the number 3.


----------



## swimmer_spe

blacktrojan3921 said:


> Now that Scarborough RT is going to be absorbed into the Bloor-Danforth; I wonder which of these proposed lines is going to take the number 3.


Maybe the DRL


----------



## Innsertnamehere

thats essentially the assumption. The DRL willl likely be completed 2-5 years after the Bloor Danforth Extension opens, which means Toronto will go a few years without a "line 3".

It also means that it is pretty safe to assume that the DRL will be blue on the subway map.


----------



## dimlys1994

February progress on South Blair Street underpass:


1. Rebar and formwork for the west abutment footing in the foreground, pier columns for the median lane of the future underpass at centre and a concrete pump in the background, pouring concrete into the formwork for the east abutment wall. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


2. Looking south at the shoring wall which supports the train tracks while we build the west abutment wall footing (on the right) and the median lane of the future underpass on the left. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


3. Stainless steel rebar for the median pier cap; using stainless steel will improve the longevity of the structure. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


4. Concrete pump used to pour concrete into the formwork for the future east abutment wall. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


5. Concrete pump used to pour concrete into the formwork for the future east abutment wall. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


6. The concrete pour into the east abutment wall continues as a VIA train speeds by in the background. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


7. Looking north at the east side of the formwork for the future east abutment wall. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


8. Looking west over the formwork for the east abutment wall and the stainless steel rebar for the median pier cap as a freight train passes by. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


9. Looking down into the formwork and rebar inside the future east abutment wall. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


10. The concrete pour into the east abutment wall continues as a freight train speeds by in the background. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


11. Looking west; a westbound GO train passes by the worksite; the heater on the left heats the formwork to prevent concrete from freezing. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


12. The concrete pour into the east abutment wall continues. by Metrolinx, on Flickr


----------



## blacktrojan3921

Innsertnamehere said:


> thats essentially the assumption. The DRL willl likely be completed 2-5 years after the Bloor Danforth Extension opens, which means Toronto will go a few years without a "line 3".
> 
> It also means that it is pretty safe to assume that the DRL will be blue on the subway map.


Of course it may also be possible that it will go the way of Montreal, and make line 3 non-existent lol.


----------



## trainrover

*Help!*

Dear Torontonians,

I now think it beyond time that your TT commissioners revisit their Terms of Engagement; far too many videographs of TTC staff WICKEDLY behaving out of control are circulating around the Net, at least the past few years 

FYI, Montrealers got their boot-strapped fare inspectors to relieve themselves of their thuggery-borne tactics, approximately now the past 3 years .. phew .. And this all occuring in the province that decade after decade was being documented (probably by Statistics Canada) as bearing the country's highest share of work-induced stress, and by a margin just beyond +10% at that.

For crying out loud, let Canadians drop their bossy attitudes and become more settled like Canadien/nes are at just letting the BS roll off you .. heck, none of us (nous) get paid enough to be barging yours and others' adrenalin too upward as it is, right? Country's most stressed-out city bus drivers remain recognizing that excessive bossiness would have unremitting vulnerabilty bearing down on themselves .. phew.

Good luck, bonne chance .. I'm appreciating the opportunity here at helping to relate a most distressing state of travelling affairs occurring around greater Toronto


----------



## Nouvellecosse

You're back!! :hug:


----------



## trainrover

^^ Hi

Turns out I'm wrong about Montreal fare inspections. Undercover :uh: agents have been filmed after having lunged at and pounced on their --uhm-- quarry. Plus many such filmed stings show subsequent arrests being performed unlawfully, because arriving 'cops' show up without their serialized badges..:nono: tut tut.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...w/view/toronto-subway-extension-contract.html
> 
> *Toronto subway extension contract*
> 15 Apr 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CANADA: Toronto Transit Commission has awarded Bechtel Canada Co a contract worth ‘up to C$80m’ for project management of the Spadina subway extension to York, it announced on April 13. The contract runs until March 31 2018 and will see Bechtel staff join an integrated team with TTC.
> 
> The 8·6 km extension of Line 1 is due for completion by the end of 2017. It will run north from Downsview beyond the city’s boundary to Vaughan Metropolitan Centre in York. Six stations are under construction, including an interchange with GO Transit commuter rail services at Downsview Park
> 
> ...


----------



## Urbanista1

can't believe how many construction delays we have seen here, originally supposed to have opened in 2014.


----------



## dimlys1994

Two Eglinton Crosstown line TBMs, Dennis and Lea, are arrived at Allen Road shaft. Will be removed from the shaft this weekend:
http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1518607/eglinton-crosstown-tbms-on-the-move-april-17-20


April 2015-Eglinton Crosstown by Metrolinx, on Flickr


April 2015-Eglinton Crosstown by Metrolinx, on Flickr


April 2015-Eglinton Crosstown by Metrolinx, on Flickr


----------



## krnboy1009

Are they extending the Sheppard line?


----------



## Nouvellecosse

^ No plans at this time.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2015/04/20/ontario-reveals-massive-10-year-rail-investment/
> 
> *Ontario reveals massive 10-year rail investment*
> 20 APR, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario’s Premier, Kathleen Wynne, has presented a 10-year, $31.5 billion programme of investment in rail.
> 
> The Regional Express Rail scheme will invest in major transit infrastructure projects including electrification of the core GO rail network and a second track for the Barrie line.
> 
> The six-kilometre section of track, which will double-track the railway between York University GO Station and Rutherford GO Station, is already under construction and is due to be completed in 2017
> 
> ...


----------



## MrAronymous

The RER scheme is such a great idea.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2015/06/10/ontario-awards-eglinton-crosstown-lrt-designbuild-contract/
> 
> *Ontario awards Eglinton Crosstown LRT design/build contract*
> 10 JUN, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Crosslinx Transit Solutions consortium is to finance, design, build and maintain a new light rail line in Greater Toronto.
> 
> The consortium, which includes SNC-Lavalin, ACS Infrastructure Canada, EllisDon, and Aecon, has been formally announced as the preferred bidder for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT Project
> 
> ...


----------



## MrAronymous

eastadl said:


> what's the go with these big, infrequent double decker trains serving the outer suburbs only in peak. How about smaller, more efficient electric, more frequent, trains all day long


Don't worry, that's their long term plan. Transforming their suburban rail to a City Rail/RER.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

eastadl said:


> what's the go with these big, infrequent double decker trains serving the outer suburbs only in peak. How about smaller, more efficient electric, more frequent, trains all day long


Many commuter rail in NA use rail lines built mainly for freight and owed by the freight companies so they're often not double tracked for their full route and the freight companies only give limited access for passenger service. To have frequent all day service would require the route be owned and controlled by the the passenger carrier which takes time and money. Often a lot of new tracks need to be laid. 

Keep in mind that the current arrangement of peak hour service tends to work quite well as the large trains cover the high passenger volumes during peak travel times and off peak service is provided by express buses that travel on the highways. They can handle the lower off-peak passenger volumes and off peak traffic volumes are much lower so the buses don't get stuck in traffic as much as during rush hour. And this type of investment requires very little capital investment as the rail routes already exist. To have frequent all day electric requires several times the investment to serve just a fraction of the passenger volume.


----------



## jay stew

Not sure if this was already posted before.


----------



## ssiguy2

eastadl said:


> what's the go with these big, infrequent double decker trains serving the outer suburbs only in peak. How about smaller, more efficient electric, more frequent, trains all day long


You have to remember that Toronto has a subway system as well which alone carries a million passengers a day. 

Toronto's GO commuter rail system in currently undergoing a massive overhaul. Buying of huge amounts of track so that they have priority over freight. GO rail now owns 89% of it's 440km commuter rail system. 

Rail overpasses, total grade separation, electrification, Union Station expansion, all day 15 minute service in each direction, new single level EMU trains, new stations, better fare integration, weekend and late night service, larger park-n-rides, double tracking. Within 10 years it will be the most advanced system in NA even more so than NYC. 

Conservatively the system should be carrying over 500,000 in 15 years up from it's current 220,000/day


----------



## ssiguy2

^^ sorry, meant to say 80% of the current rail corridors not 89% but the goal is 100%.


----------



## dimlys1994

SmartTrack is soon become reality as federal funding approved, from Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...iew/view/federal-funding-for-toronto-rer.html
> 
> *Federal funding for Toronto RER*
> 19 Jun 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Prime Minister Stephen Harper (right) announced the funding, which is part of the SmartTrack plan of Mayor John Tory (left)_
> 
> CANADA: Federal funding is to be made available for Toronto’s proposed SmartTrack Regional Express Rail project, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced on June 18, when he set out details of a Public Transit Fund which is being established to support transport infrastructure investment.
> 
> The RER is included in Mayor of Toronto John Tory’s SmartTrack plan for public transport investment, and envisages using existing GO commuter rail corridors to develop all-day electrified suburban rail network. Federal funding would be subject to the submission and approval of a formal application, and would cover up to one-third of the costs of the C$8·5bn project, which is to be managed by regional transport authority Metrolinx
> 
> ...


----------



## ssiguy2

How do you spell vote buying in a federal election just 4 months off and Tory support falling in populace Ontario? 

Just a bit more of GO rail expansion. Currently the system of 440km of line has about 1500 trains per week in service levels. In 5 years that figure will rise to 2200 and in 8 years after full electrification that figure will soar to 6000 weekly trips. That does not include the new Smart Track program which will run about every 10 minutes on average over 53km of track.


----------



## yin_yang

toronto so badly needs this...dvp and 401 are always jammed. 7 days a week daytime.


----------



## urbanfan89

Harper promised full funding of the Scarborough subway extension a few months ago. Both the subway and Smart Track cannot be built. So one of these two promises must be broken - probably by an NDP government, which can claim to be more urban transit-friendly not just before elections.


----------



## jay stew

One of the new streetcars derailed and collided with another on Queen's Quay on Saturday.























































Pics courtesy of r/Toronto and CBC Toronto.


----------



## dimlys1994

From yorkregion.com:



> http://www.yorkregion.com/news-stor...to-put-subway-to-richmond-hill-back-on-track/
> 
> *Councillors applaud next step to put subway to Richmond Hill back on track*
> Jun 29, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _This proposed map of the Yonge North Subway Extension shows current Finch subway terminus in red, with six potential subway stops north to Richmond Hill, including Cummer, Steeles, Clark, Royal Orchard, Langstaff and finally Richmond Hill_
> 
> _‘Will unleash significant economic benefits’ say Vaughan, Markham politicians_
> 
> Metrolinx has recommended moving ahead with plans to build the Yonge Street subway north to Richmond Hill, a step heralded by councillors from York’s southern municipalities.
> 
> “This is an important moment for both this project and transit development in the GTA,” said Vaughan Councillor Alan Shefman.
> 
> “For years, we have been meeting with virtually everyone involved in the planning and development of transit in the region, attempting to convince them to move to the next step in this critical project. We are very hopeful that a decision to fund this recommendation will be announced shortly to allow the work to begin.”
> 
> Metrolinx (previously the Greater Toronto Transportation Authority) manages and integrates road transport and public transportation in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton area
> 
> ...


----------



## Woonsocket54

Service has commenced at West Harbour GO station in Hamilton, ON as of this morning.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5...from-new-west-harbour-station-early-thursday/

updated GO Transit map:










Notice that Lakeshore West line splits into two at the west end of Lake Ontario


----------



## Nexis

from a friends recent Canadain vacation

*GO UP at Bloor*







*A Quick Look Inside the UP Express*


----------



## 00Zy99

I remember a while back that there were photos of a new busway that they were opening. I seem to remember that it had two lanes, ran along the side of a highway, and had bridges over streets. It opened in winter, if I remember correctly.

Does anyone remember which busway that was?


----------



## JustinB

You're talking about the Mississauga Transitway. Phase 1 opened last winter, two more stations are scheduled to open early 2016, and the rest of the station at the end of 2016.

Here is a blog with some construction pics:

http://miwayblog.ca/

and the website:

http://www.mississauga.ca/portal/miway/transitway


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-lrt-reaches-financial-close.html?channel=535
> 
> *Eglinton Crosstown LRT reaches financial close*
> Friday, July 24, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _CROSSLINX Transit Solutions, the consortium selected in June by Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario to finance, build, and maintain Toronto's Eglinton Crosstown light rail line has reached financial close on the $C 5.3bn ($US 4.3bn) project_
> 
> The consortium comprises Aecon, ACS Infrastructure Canada, EllisDon, and SNC-Lavalin and each member is an equal partner in the group with a 25% stake in the alternative financing and procurement (AFP) contract.
> 
> Construction is expected to begin in the first quarter of next year and Crosslinx will supply trackwork, signalling, telecommunications and rolling stock for the project. It will also maintain the line for 30 years
> 
> ...


----------



## fieldsofdreams

Woonsocket54 said:


> Service has commenced at West Harbour GO station in Hamilton, ON as of this morning.
> 
> http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5...from-new-west-harbour-station-early-thursday/
> 
> updated GO Transit map:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice that Lakeshore West line splits into two at the west end of Lake Ontario


I've thought of this idea, in which I shared with a fellow mod here at SSC: is it possible that GO Transit could have a train service to travel as far southwest as Windsor? I mean, it can cause some competition from VIA Rail, but, with that service, not only it will slash fares on that long service, but it will open an even larger market for commuters traveling as far as Detroit, giving them an opportunity to travel by rail instead of driving (or even flying) to and from Toronto.


----------



## saiho

fieldsofdreams said:


> I've thought of this idea, in which I shared with a fellow mod here at SSC: is it possible that GO Transit could have a train service to travel as far southwest as Windsor? I mean, it can cause some competition from VIA Rail, but, with that service, not only it will slash fares on that long service, but it will open an even larger market for commuters traveling as far as Detroit, giving them an opportunity to travel by rail instead of driving (or even flying) to and from Toronto.


The tracks exist to Windsor via the Kitchener line, Milton, and Lakeshore West Lines. However I don't think GO should be doing it. Toronto - Windsor pair is more intercity than regional rail. The distance is more comparable to travel between New York and Boston. Or in other words extend the MTA metro north to Boston's South Station. You are better off just directly improving VIA service.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Yes they already extended service as far as Kitchener, and beyond that the commute is so far and time consuming that there wouldn't be enough people interested in doing it that it would warrant a dedicated commuter service. The distances on that GO map don't look very far, but it's actually a pretty long way...


----------



## Nouvellecosse

All new lines have higher ridership in the first week - or sometimes first few weeks - than immediately after. Ridership can take a good year or more for it to be at expected long term levels. There's nothing new or shocking here. We'd need to evaluate it after at least a year, or preferably over several years, to draw any relevant conclusions. The projected ridership is 5000/day (double the current) after a year and remember, this is only after the first year of service.


----------



## dimlys1994

Another TBMs for Eglinton Crosstown line started boing on west side of line:


----------



## dimlys1994

Video about future station names for Eglinton line:


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...it-driving-cars-enter-service.html?channel=00
> 
> *Go Transit driving cars enter service*
> Tuesday, October 20, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _THE first of 67 Bombardier double-deck driving trailers ordered by Toronto and Hamilton transport authority Metrolinx entered passenger service with Go Transit on October 9_
> 
> The BiLevel vehicles are being built at Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant in Ontario and feature a number of improvements over previous generations of Go Transit double-deck coaches including cab crash energy absorption zones, better driver visibility, and improved train monitoring capability
> 
> ...


----------



## Homer J. Simpson

^ I had no idea GO was getting new trains.


----------



## yin_yang

mw123 said:


> As a comparison, the airport lines in Sydney and Brisbane took a few years to build up patronage too. Takes time to build awareness and change habits it seems.
> 
> Are there cheaper competing buses in Toronto? The train does seem really expensive.


yes, there is an airport express bus that is cheaper and more convenient because it stops at union station and then travels through the entire downtown core to places many people need to get to but the train can't go to.


----------



## Montrealer

hkskyline said:


> You think 10% ridership is self-sustainable?
> 
> 90% empty is the overall figure, not the most empty part of the day, which means quite dismal performance if you say rush hour patronage is more respectable. They key point is ridership has dropped since it opened. If it consistently was low, at least you can blame lack of awareness or lack of signage at Pearson as more reasonable excuses.
> 
> 2500 riders a day is pathetic when a subway can carry at least 250 per train (http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects/New_Vehicles/New_Subway_Train/index.jsp) and the Yonge Line gets 733,000 riders a day (based on station usage, so can halve the figures to account for entry and exit).


Just as a comparison, Montreal's 747 Airport Express bus, which links the airport to the city centre, carries 4000+ riders a day (2011 numbers, I couldn't find anything more up-to-date)


----------



## Urbanista1

the problem is price, TTC will get me fast from the airport to my subway stop for a $3. I will not be taking this rip-off service, plus it uses diesel fuel and pollutes are air.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ton-crosstown-light-rail-contract-signed.html
> 
> *C$9·1bn Eglinton Crosstown light rail contract signed*
> 04 Nov 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CANADA: Infrastructure Ontario, transport authority Metrolinx and preferred bidder Crosslinx Transit Solutions signed the C$9·1bn fixed-price construction and maintenance contract for Toronto’s Eglinton Crosstown Light Rail Transit project on November 3. Opening is scheduled for 2021.
> 
> Crosslinx was named preferred bidder on June 9. The consortium comprises ACS Infrastructure Canada, Aecon, EllisDon, SNC-Lavalin and Dragados Canada. A rival bid had been submitted by the Crosstown Transit Partners consortium of Fengate Capital Management, OHL Concesiones, Strabag, Bechtel and Obayashi Canada Holdings
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994




----------



## hkskyline

Token prices are going up by 10 cents to $2.9 in the new year to address a budget shortfall. Metropass prices won't be affected for now. 

They really need to look into the property development model to build a decent cushion and hold off these price hikes.


----------



## dimlys1994




----------



## saiho

hkskyline said:


> Token prices are going up by 10 cents to $2.9 in the new year to address a budget shortfall. Metropass prices won't be affected for now.
> 
> They really need to look into the property development model to build a decent cushion and hold off these price hikes.


No, they just need to get better subsidies from all levels of government which is at an all time low.


----------



## hkskyline

saiho said:


> No, they just need to get better subsidies from all levels of government which is at an all time low.


That means charging higher taxes, which is what users now have to do through the farebox.


----------



## saiho

hkskyline said:


> That means charging higher taxes, which is what users now have to do through the farebox.


So be it. If taxes subsidize road and expressway construction and maintenance then it has to subsidize transit too. Transit like our healthcare, is no place for an extensive Neoliberal out of pocket model. It is not a business it is a social good.


----------



## hkskyline

saiho said:


> So be it. If taxes subsidize road and expressway construction and maintenance then it has to subsidize transit too. Transit like our healthcare, is no place for an extensive Neoliberal out of pocket model. It is not a business it is a social good.


The problem is people are fed up with continuous fare increases and minimal service improvements. Adding taxes to fund a badly-managed system or increasing fares to support it are the same thing. Clearly the government is not good at running the thing and cannot think of better revenue sources to reduce the burden on the average joe.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Clearly that's not true. The places with both lower fares and equal or higher farebox recovery ratios are more densely populated and have higher transit usage. Your suggestion that increasing subsidies means higher taxes also isn't necessarily true. Government can sometimes shift their priorities and reduce funding for things like road capacity while increase funding for things like transit without needing to increase their total revenue. But even if they did increase their total revenue by raising taxes, Canada and Toronto in particular don't have very high tax rates in a global context, and certainly lower than many parts of Europe that are known for their robust public transit. 

The fact is, all money has to come from somewhere, and infrastructure ends up being paid for by the citizens of a society either directly or indirectly. If the government gets into the real estate business and develops lucrative land near transit stations, then that land is not available to the private sector to develop and profit from. And all those profits are diverted away from shareholders of the development companies and away from investing in other developments and employing other workers, and instead are used to fund transit. Not a bad use of funds, but they've still been diverted from other parts of the economy. There's no such thing as a free lunch.


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> Clearly that's not true. The places with both lower fares and equal or higher farebox recovery ratios are more densely populated and have higher transit usage. Your suggestion that increasing subsidies means higher taxes also isn't necessarily true. Government can sometimes shift their priorities and reduce funding for things like road capacity while increase funding for things like transit without needing to increase their total revenue. But even if they did increase their total revenue by raising taxes, Canada and Toronto in particular don't have very high tax rates in a global context, and certainly lower than many parts of Europe that are known for their robust public transit.
> 
> The fact is, all money has to come from somewhere, and infrastructure ends up being paid for by the citizens of a society either directly or indirectly. If the government gets into the real estate business and develops lucrative land near transit stations, then that land is not available to the private sector to develop and profit from. And all those profits are diverted away from shareholders of the development companies and away from investing in other developments and employing other workers, and instead are used to fund transit. Not a bad use of funds, but they've still been diverted from other parts of the economy. There's no such thing as a free lunch.


Who pays taxes? Taxpayers. You can shift funding around but the taxpayer bears the price. Will people be willing to move tax dollars from other priorities to transit? Won't they then complain their other services are being neglected, which will prompt tax increases?

Government should not be doing business. They are not good at it. The transit-property development model is very well established and they can sell the rights to private developers for the shovel and paint works.

Canada's income and corporate tax rates are high. You are just comparing a bunch of countries with insanely high tax rates and think they are low, which is not true.

The whole issue at hand is Canada is not planning its cities to be sustainable for public transit. Perhaps government officials need to have the guts to cut transit where it is not economical to run, or add density to the point where transit is viable.


----------



## ssiguy2

Canada's income taxes are relatively high but we have amongst the lowest corporate tax rates.


----------



## saiho

hkskyline said:


> The transit-property development model is very well established and they can sell the rights to private developers for the shovel and paint works.


This kind of thinking is what trashy right wing politicians use to trick the public that there is free money to create transit. 

When Rob Ford said the Sheppard subway would be funded by private sector developers. Planners and Engineers looked into how much up zoning was needed around the stations fund such a huge project. They found that they would have to create a sea of 60-40 story condos around each station to collect enough development charges to fund major parts of the subway. The surrounding community of NIMBYs was appalled.

Now John Tory is proposing his transit plan be partly funded by a form of Land Value Capture but studies show that the neighbourhoods around the stations are too stable and lack development potential to get any major revenue from. 



hkskyline said:


> The whole issue at hand is Canada is not planning its cities to be sustainable for public transit. Perhaps government officials need to have the guts to cut transit where it is not economical to run, or add density to the point where transit is viable.


That is what Rob ford did when he cut a lot of lower performing bus routes, crowding was up ridership was down. Adding density? Outside of neighborhoods in the downtown core, Toronto freaks out when a 6 story condo gets proposed. As much as Hong Kong is a great success in public transit its techniques can not be blindly replicated everywhere.


----------



## hkskyline

saiho said:


> This kind of thinking is what trashy right wing politicians use to trick the public that there is free money to create transit.
> 
> When Rob Ford said the Sheppard subway would be funded by private sector developers. Planners and Engineers looked into how much up zoning was needed around the stations fund such a huge project. They found that they would have to create a sea of 60-40 story condos around each station to collect enough development charges to fund major parts of the subway. The surrounding community of NIMBYs was appalled.
> 
> Now John Tory is proposing his transit plan be partly funded by a form of Land Value Capture but studies show that the neighbourhoods around the stations are too stable and lack development potential to get any major revenue from.
> 
> 
> 
> That is what Rob ford did when he cut a lot of lower performing bus routes, crowding was up ridership was down. Adding density? Outside of neighborhoods in the downtown core, Toronto freaks out when a 6 story condo gets proposed. As much as Hong Kong is a great success in public transit its techniques can not be blindly replicated everywhere.


All this point to NIMBYism ... people expect their little garden in the city although they forget to realize they live in an urban area. Then they will drive everywhere and pollute their air with that type of unsustainable lifestyle.

There is free money to be had through development fees, but some people don't like free money shoved right into their faces.

This is why subway coverage remains pathetic for a city of this size, and proportion of transit use just as bad, not just in Toronto, but across the continent. The solutions will roll once people wake up.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

hkskyline said:


> Token prices are going up by 10 cents to $2.9 in the new year to address a budget shortfall. Metropass prices won't be affected for now.
> 
> They really need to look into the property development model to build a decent cushion and hold off these price hikes.


Metrolinx is getting into it for GO transit, and they are developing a bit of land around Downsview Station. any money from that one would go into general revenues for the city though, the land is being developed through Build Toronto, the cities real estate arm.

Metrolinx has a couple of development sites along the Eglinton Crosstown, and is in talks with quite a few developers for several GO transit stops. Port Credit GO is about to close on a P3 that would see an 800 spot parking garage constructed with office and condominiums constructed above, for no cost to the transit agency. Maple GO station is in talks for a similar project, high density condos on top of a new parking structure.

The development model works on a large scale for Hong Kong due to the hyper densities involved in the city. That model won't work here. That's not to say that development can't play some roll, but I see any cash coming from that going to capital works (see Port Credit GO) instead of operating, which needs a more reliable revenue stream than real estate.

Toronto's transit rates are fairly good for its size, at 27%. Its the second highest in NA behind only NYC.

As others have said, there is literally no such thing as "free money". Development fees end up increasing housing costs as the cost of constructing new housing units increases significantly. Not to say they don't have a use, they are partially being used to finance the Scarborough Subway extension, but they are far from "free".

Toronto's planning regime is currently all about adding density, it just takes decades to do so. Its not like you can go from a sprawling LA style city like the suburban GTA is to a transit freindly haven over night, it takes a long time to build density, and it is happening. The housing market has shifted from 60% detached housing and 30% apartment housing in 2005 to 30% detached and 60% apartment today. There are an insane amount of highrises going up across the city right now.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

hkskyline said:


> Who pays taxes? Taxpayers. You can shift funding around but the taxpayer bears the price. Will people be willing to move tax dollars from other priorities to transit? Won't they then complain their other services are being neglected, which will prompt tax increases?


If you start providing more service in one manner rather than another manner, then of course you can shift the funding. If you're generating more electricity through hydro than through coal, you can spend less on coal and more on hydro. If you're providing more transportation through public transit than through automobile infrastructure, you can shift some funding from one to the other. There will always be someone who complains about every government decision. That's not something you can avoid. All a government can do is try and make the best decisions and most efficient use of tax dollars.

Another thing to consider is that we shouldn't just be looking at taxes as an expense and complaining about the burden on Joe taxpayer if they go up. You should be looking at the overall costs to Joe and what he's getting for them. If you keep taxes low by under funding the public transit and spend on roads, then look how much the average Joe has to spend on cars, gas, maintenance, etc. If you fund it using land development fees, look at how much Joe is spending on housing. It's about the amount a society is spending, not just the funding mechanism. Same thing with other government services like health care. If you only look at Joe's taxes under public healthcare and not look at his insurance rates and user fees under private, then of course it will seem like he's under a greater burden with higher taxes, when in reality, his overall costs could be lower.



hkskyline said:


> Government should not be doing business. They are not good at it. The transit-property development model is very well established and they can sell the rights to private developers for the shovel and paint works.
> 
> Canada's income and corporate tax rates are high. You are just comparing a bunch of countries with insanely high tax rates and think they are low, which is not true.


I didn't say they were low, I said they aren't very high in a relative (global) context. Which of course includes those "bunch of countries" where taxes are much higher. If you're making an honest comparison, you don't just compare to the places that are lower in order to prove the taxes are high, you compare to everyone to get an honest comparison.



hkskyline said:


> The whole issue at hand is Canada is not planning its cities to be sustainable for public transit. Perhaps government officials need to have the guts to cut transit where it is not economical to run, or add density to the point where transit is viable.


A big part of planning is encouraging transit usage and discouraging automobile usage, and the main tool for that is determining how much funding each receives. You can't add density to places where the transit isn't already capable of handling it, or else people will drive. Or if the traffic is too bad to drive, people won't want to live there.


----------



## hkskyline

Innsertnamehere said:


> The development model works on a large scale for Hong Kong due to the hyper densities involved in the city. That model won't work here. That's not to say that development can't play some roll, but I see any cash coming from that going to capital works (see Port Credit GO) instead of operating, which needs a more reliable revenue stream than real estate.


The Hong Kong model is only for land on top of stations or adjacent if they are part of the transit works, which is similar to the Metrolix works you mentioned. These developments have nothing to do with the overall density zoned for the surrounding areas, although planners generally have a good idea what density they need to build to justify a heavy rail line in their town planning studies. These are merely piecemeal developments in the grand scheme of things.

The hope is the people living on top of stations will then use the trains, so that is where the sustained cash flow for operations come from. Plus the existing residents can benefit from more convenient transit options.



Innsertnamehere said:


> Toronto's transit rates are fairly good for its size, at 27%. Its the second highest in NA behind only NYC.[/qupte]
> North America is not a good place to look for good transit coverage or usage to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> Innsertnamehere said:
> 
> 
> 
> As others have said, there is literally no such thing as "free money". Development fees end up increasing housing costs as the cost of constructing new housing units increases significantly. Not to say they don't have a use, they are partially being used to finance the Scarborough Subway extension, but they are far from "free".
> 
> 
> 
> It is natural to expect a premium to live so near a train line. Existing residents get a free lunch when their properties appreciate in value once the line is announced and completed. Having the private sector bear part of the burden reduces the fare and tax increases, and is more "free" than the current model.
> 
> 
> 
> Innsertnamehere said:
> 
> 
> 
> Toronto's planning regime is currently all about adding density, it just takes decades to do so. Its not like you can go from a sprawling LA style city like the suburban GTA is to a transit freindly haven over night, it takes a long time to build density, and it is happening. The housing market has shifted from 60% detached housing and 30% apartment housing in 2005 to 30% detached and 60% apartment today. There are an insane amount of highrises going up across the city right now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's why heavy rail and increased density developments go hand in hand with this new urban planning strategy.
Click to expand...


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> Another thing to consider is that we shouldn't just be looking at taxes as an expense and complaining about the burden on Joe taxpayer if they go up. You should be looking at the overall costs to Joe and what he's getting for them. If you keep taxes low by under funding the public transit and spend on roads, then look how much the average Joe has to spend on cars, gas, maintenance, etc. If you fund it using land development fees, look at how much Joe is spending on housing. It's about the amount a society is spending, not just the funding mechanism. Same thing with other government services like health care. If you only look at Joe's taxes under public healthcare and not look at his insurance rates and user fees under private, then of course it will seem like he's under a greater burden with higher taxes, when in reality, his overall costs could be lower.


The problem is the government is not in the business of operating transit and hence the usage of tax dollars is inefficient. So are these continuous fare increases going to service improvements, expansion, and fleet renewal? We all see TTC's improvements have been lacklustre yet we see the fat cats survive on the sunshine list every year. Should ticket agents earn over 100k a year while everyone has to pay more per ride on a marginally different network? Is there something wrong with how this agency is run?

I don't think the cost of the private sector running the TTC would be much worse than the current model of fare increases and tax subsidies.



Nouvellecosse said:


> I didn't say they were low, I said they aren't very high in a relative (global) context. Which of course includes those "bunch of countries" where taxes are much higher. If you're making an honest comparison, you don't just compare to the places that are lower in order to prove the taxes are high, you compare to everyone to get an honest comparison.


Here is a global comparison : http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26327114

Whether high taxes are spent with the best value for money, especially on the transit front, is highly questionable. Perhaps by taking so much of your money, the government ranks don't appreciate the need to prudently use it. 



Nouvellecosse said:


> A big part of planning is encouraging transit usage and discouraging automobile usage, and the main tool for that is determining how much funding each receives. You can't add density to places where the transit isn't already capable of handling it, or else people will drive. Or if the traffic is too bad to drive, people won't want to live there.


I've stated before you build a transit line by adding density on top of the new stations. You are not building a line to nowhere (Vaughan .. haha). There are also existing residents in the area who can use it. Whether lines are planned with these in mind is another story!


----------



## Innsertnamehere

hkskyline said:


> The Hong Kong model is only for land on top of stations or adjacent if they are part of the transit works, which is similar to the Metrolix works you mentioned. These developments have nothing to do with the overall density zoned for the surrounding areas, although planners generally have a good idea what density they need to build to justify a heavy rail line in their town planning studies. These are merely piecemeal developments in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> The hope is the people living on top of stations will then use the trains, so that is where the sustained cash flow for operations come from. Plus the existing residents can benefit from more convenient transit options.



Yes, but the densities Hong Kong constructs on top of their stations are far and away higher than anything that could be done in Toronto. Maple GO is looking at putting up maybe 10 floors of apartments, Port Credit two 20 floor towers, etc. Hong Kong would see four 40 floor towers, not two twenty.

As for operating profitability from fare revenue, the TTCs fares are too low for that to occur. A bus stuffed to the gills still operates at a loss from my understanding, and while a full subway line does operate at a slight profit, presuming 100% of the riders didn't transfer from a bus, it needs to be packed to the point of overcapacity. More riders simply means more expenses, which is half the reason fares have been increasing so much lately, operating costs are skyrocketing to serve growing demand.


----------



## hkskyline

Innsertnamehere said:


> Yes, but the densities Hong Kong constructs on top of their stations are far and away higher than anything that could be done in Toronto. Maple GO is looking at putting up maybe 10 floors of apartments, Port Credit two 20 floor towers, etc. Hong Kong would see four 40 floor towers, not two twenty.
> 
> As for operating profitability from fare revenue, the TTCs fares are too low for that to occur. A bus stuffed to the gills still operates at a loss from my understanding, and while a full subway line does operate at a slight profit, presuming 100% of the riders didn't transfer from a bus, it needs to be packed to the point of overcapacity. More riders simply means more expenses, which is half the reason fares have been increasing so much lately, operating costs are skyrocketing to serve growing demand.


That's why the urban planners need to really think whether the catchment area can support a heavy rail line even if they plan to build a few tall towers above the stations. At least they can reduce government dependency if they can at least lose a bit less, so not to overburden the taxpayer. A 20-storey tower is better than a station in the middle of nowhere with the bills to pay.

There are very few profitable transit operators. Japan has a few good examples, but they are also developers at key stations and operating malls plus the like. Hong Kong runs at a profit because of property development, which balances out the need to raise fares. We actually pay a lot less than Toronto but with newer trains and more reliable service. Don't see why Toronto can't replicate at least part of that as another fare increase looms.


----------



## saiho

hkskyline said:


> We all see TTC's improvements have been lacklustre yet we see the fat cats survive on the sunshine list every year. Should ticket agents earn over 100k a year while everyone has to pay more per ride on a marginally different network? Is there something wrong with how this agency is run?


First, of all the ticket collectors have to pull lots of overtime to reach that number. They normally make only 55,000K to 65,000K per year. 
Secondly, the TTC has over 12,000 employees so even if a few thousand of them make it on the sunshine list most don't make it, the number drops particularly quick if you don't factor in any overtime contributions.
Thirdly, people think everyone at the TTC is a driver, ticket collectors or some blue collar job. The TTC has a large in-house team of engineers, lawyers and doctors, these occupations easily make over 6 figures and make up a lot of the TTC sunshine list. 
Fourthly, the sunshine list was created by some hack who wanted to expose and put a check on government spending, a worthy cause and good idea (I am all for it) but the problem is its 100,000, IN 1996. Today, in real terms accounting for inflation that threshold is over 140,000. 



hkskyline said:


> I've stated before you build a transit line by adding density on top of the new stations. You are not building a line to nowhere (Vaughan .. haha). There are also existing residents in the area who can use it. Whether lines are planned with these in mind is another story!


I'm not even going to talk about that. Let's just say that many politicians got a bit too close to owners and developers of that area. So much for the government not taking any of the taxpayers money leading to them prudently using it


----------



## hkskyline

saiho said:


> First, of all the ticket collectors have to pull lots of overtime to reach that number. They normally make only 55,000K to 65,000K per year.
> Secondly, the TTC has over 12,000 employees so even if a few thousand of them make it on the sunshine list most don't make it, the number drops particularly quick if you don't factor in any overtime contributions.
> 
> Thirdly, people think everyone at the TTC is a driver, ticket collectors or some blue collar job. The TTC has a large in-house team of engineers, lawyers and doctors, these occupations easily make over 6 figures and make up a lot of the TTC sunshine list.


Means there is a governance issue that some people get to pull OT on a ticket collector job to get over 100k a year when the median income is only 32k and only 12% of the country makes over 100k (source). 

Means this governance issue is ongoing if supposedly temporary OT needs become permanent. Has service improved to justify this significant figure?

I would expect senior management and highly-skilled workers on the sunshine list. If you read my post carefully, you will see I was referring to ticket agents making the sunshine list.

It is also useless to compare only partial income figures. The taxpayer is on the hook for their total salaries, including overtime, right? Is OT not taxable income? So why would anyone want to exclude OT in any meaningful analysis?

Keep in mind median income hasn't moved much over the years from the Statcan source above.


----------



## saiho

hkskyline said:


> It is also useless to compare only partial income figures. The taxpayer is on the hook for their total salaries, including overtime, right? Is OT not taxable income? So why would anyone want to exclude OT in any meaningful analysis?


Becuase OT is what saves the TTC money. Instead of hiring more people on to payroll, paying their benefits and pensions they work the existing ones harder. If they did former then none of the front line workers would have made the sunshine list (which I already pointed out is flawed as it is) but cost to the taxpayer would be higher. So it is really not worth looking at the sunshine list and screaming "OMG LOOK @ ALL DA PPL". At the end of the day, it saves money.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

hkskyline said:


> The problem is the government is not in the business of operating transit and hence the usage of tax dollars is inefficient. So are these continuous fare increases going to service improvements, expansion, and fleet renewal? We all see TTC's improvements have been lacklustre yet we see the fat cats survive on the sunshine list every year. Should ticket agents earn over 100k a year while everyone has to pay more per ride on a marginally different network? Is there something wrong with how this agency is run?


I think this statement is the root of our disagreement. You have an anti-government bias, and are making unsubstantiated assumptions about it.

Fare increases are caused by cut backs in subsidies, changes in fuel prices, and keeping up with inflation. 

The TTC may be a government agency, but it is not the government, and it is extremely effective at operating in an efficient manner given the conditions under which it operates. 

Of course, transit expansions are often political decisions, and I disagree with several of the choices that have been made pertaining to new lines (like Sheppard) or extensions, like Vaughan. But these decisions were not made by the TTC.


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> I think this statement is the root of our disagreement. You have an anti-government bias, and are making unsubstantiated assumptions about it.
> 
> Fare increases are caused by cut backs in subsidies, changes in fuel prices, and keeping up with inflation.
> 
> The TTC may be a government agency, but it is not the government, and it is extremely effective at operating in an efficient manner given the conditions under which it operates.
> 
> Of course, transit expansions are often political decisions, and I disagree with several of the choices that have been made pertaining to new lines (like Sheppard) or extensions, like Vaughan. But these decisions were not made by the TTC.


The model is inefficient to begin with. So it is irrelevant whether it operates optimally or not given its means. The TTC operates inefficiently as a government agency, being dependent on funding that comes intermittently, and out-of-sync with the long-term transit needs of the users. That's the biggest issue when politics get into play. We should question its fundamental flawed business and funding model. By using a private partnership approach and adding density to stations for expansions, it can somewhat break this political link and actually address the needs of its users more efficiently.

We all know if the status quo continues, the TTC will continue be out of sync with the city's transit needs. Adding another layer of government agency on top will only make the problem worse.


----------



## hkskyline

saiho said:


> Becuase OT is what saves the TTC money. Instead of hiring more people on to payroll, paying their benefits and pensions they work the existing ones harder. If they did former then none of the front line workers would have made the sunshine list (which I already pointed out is flawed as it is) but cost to the taxpayer would be higher. So it is really not worth looking at the sunshine list and screaming "OMG LOOK @ ALL DA PPL". At the end of the day, it saves money.


So you are saying ticket agents earning 100k or more is normal considering the average median income in Canada is 1/3 of that and the skills required for this job?

Seems like a great easy job to have.


----------



## zaphod

> The TTC operates inefficiently as a government agency, being dependent on funding that comes intermittently


I guess whether or not transit is better or worse as a direct government activity depends on what role mass transit serves and why it even exists.

In most of North America, transit is a public service meant to provide a minimal level of alternative mobility in a car-dominated culture. It would always be dependent on subsidies and never be that lucrative for a private operator, who would also ignore the people who need this kind of transit the most. Privatization in this context would just create a middleman with less accountability while service quality would suffer.

In the biggest NA cities, and the rest of the world, it can be a more serious business or necessity to prevent gridlock. If there was a chance that a network could make decent money on the operations side and private interests could add to the infrastructure too so long as the government did the heavy lifting, then operators would be lining up and putting in their best effort. It would be fine if that were true.

Toronto perhaps finds itself at the crossroads, operating under a model designed to fill the former role but really should be filling the latter.

Maybe a compromise is for the TTC to become a umbrella agency and privatize certain functions like the Subway, but still directly operate certain bus routes and fund service frequencies in any gaps that private operators might leave behind.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ives-first-tier-4-locomotive.html?channel=528
> 
> *First Tier 4 locomotive for Go Transit on test*
> Monday, December 14, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _TORONTO commuter rail operator Go Transit has taken delivery of its first locomotive to comply with the latest US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Tier 4 emissions regulations_
> 
> Go Transit placed a $C 45m ($US 32.8m) order with Wabtec subsidiary Motive Power Industries (MPI) in 2012 for 11 repowered MP54AC locomotives. Toronto and Hamilton transit authority Metrolinx and MPI subsequently signed a $C 63m contract for an additional 10 new-build MP54ACs, which will take the fleet to 21 units
> 
> ...


----------



## Nouvellecosse

hkskyline said:


> The model is inefficient to begin with. So it is irrelevant whether it operates optimally or not given its means. The TTC operates inefficiently as a government agency, being dependent on funding that comes intermittently, and out-of-sync with the long-term transit needs of the users. That's the biggest issue when politics get into play. We should question its fundamental flawed business and funding model. By using a private partnership approach and adding density to stations for expansions, it can somewhat break this political link and actually address the needs of its users more efficiently.
> 
> We all know if the status quo continues, the TTC will continue be out of sync with the city's transit needs. Adding another layer of government agency on top will only make the problem worse.


I disagree that it's a fundamentally inefficient model. The things that you're talking about don't require a complete remake of the system and are not inherent parts of the current model, and correcting them only requires the current policies to be updated and for the system to be properly and reliably funded. Public transit in Canada is a public service and many people in here are wary of public private partnerships because the private partners are concerned more with profit than with service, and siphon off any profitable aspects of the operation leaving the public side to handle the burdensome parts. If we had the density to support public transit without subsidy like seen in places such as Hong Kong, I would be open to a fully private model. But not a public private partnership.


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> I disagree that it's a fundamentally inefficient model. The things that you're talking about don't require a complete remake of the system and are not inherent parts of the current model, and correcting them only requires the current policies to be updated and for the system to be properly and reliably funded. Public transit in Canada is a public service and many people in here are wary of public private partnerships because the private partners are concerned more with profit than with service, and siphon off any profitable aspects of the operation leaving the public side to handle the burdensome parts. If we had the density to support public transit without subsidy like seen in places such as Hong Kong, I would be open to a fully private model. But not a public private partnership.


I don't see how the current public model is focused on service either with infrastructure issues (aging), fatcat ticket collectors, a stagnant network, falling ridership growth into the low single digits, yet increasing fares.


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## Nouvellecosse

Other than the so called "fatcat" ticket collectors which as someone else already explained was due mainly to overtime which doesn't necessarily cost the company extra, the other issues are one of proper investment. So then let's fix the problems. No need to waste public money by ceding control of the system to private companies.


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> Other than the so called "fatcat" ticket collectors which as someone else already explained was due mainly to overtime which doesn't necessarily cost the company extra, the other issues are one of proper investment. So then let's fix the problems. No need to waste public money by ceding control of the system to private companies.


And I already pointed out that explanation of the sunshine list is wrong. OT doesn't cost the company extra? Then why is the salary so big?

If you look at the sunshine list's criteria, you will quickly see it is taxable income plus more that is not even on the T4 : http://www.ontario.ca/page/public-sector-salary-disclosure-background-and-faq#section-8

_The $100,000 figure means salary before taxes, and does not include taxable benefits. However, for those who are paid $100,000 or more, the total value of these taxable benefits must be disclosed. Beginning with 2012 salaries, the definition of salary now also includes per diems and/or retainers paid to employees, in addition to amounts reported as employment income on the Canada Revenue Agency T4 slip. _


----------



## Nouvellecosse

It doesn't necessarily cost extra because OT is only offered by a company when extra labour is needed, and it's cheaper to pay an existing employee a lot more to perform the labour than to hire a new worker in order to cover these busy times when there are other times that they'll be under utilized. Not to mention that having more workers means having more people they would need to hire through an expensive worker acquisition process. Not to mention the cost to train (often ongoing), supervise, and offer benefits to an additional person. In other words, the cost to hire and employ a worker is not just in their compensation. Even if their salary was double, having two people each making $50,000 is often costlier than one person making $100,000, or even $125,000 depending on the needs or the organization.

Not to mention that if the labour need is expected to not be long term, it can be hard to lay off a worker and the worker may be owed expensive severance pay.


----------



## Balkanada

twentyfivetacos said:


> LRT is marketing bullshit


Agreed. It's just the forcing of making people believe it's anything more than just a tram. I guess that's fine for cities who don't already have a tram/streetcar, however that is not the case for Toronto


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Balkanada said:


> Agreed. It's just the forcing of making people believe it's anything more than just a tram. I guess that's fine for cities who don't already have a tram/streetcar, however that is not the case for Toronto




I would argue it would make a lot more sense for Toronto specifically because it already has a very different service that's referred to as a streetcar. You wouldn't want to label something very different with the same name and confuse people. If it was the same type of setup and performing the same type of service, sure. But in this case where it's almost unrecognisably different, trying to use the same name would be confusing and doesn't make sense.

In a city where streetcars don't already exist, there wouldn't be anything for people to confuse the new "streetcar" with. Although it could still be confusing if they were familiar with services in other places.


----------



## ssiguy2

Things can get blurry and some streetcar routes go underground or have their own ROW. 

There is usually the accepted idea that LRT is for more fast transit with larger stations which are further apart but this can pertain to streetcars as well.

There is, technically, one big difference between streetcars and LRT which helps define them..........the vehicles themselves. While they use the same technology and track the vehicles for LRT are different. The 2 main difference between the LRT and streetcar/tram vehicles is that LRT have doors on BOTH sides of the train and LRT vehicles can be couple together while streetcars can't. Streetcars can certainly be articulated {like Toronto's} but one different vehicle cannot be attached to another different vehicle. 

These are the 2 things that separate LRT and streetcars/trams universally throughout the world.


----------



## Ontario1

Streetcars can't be driven from both ends. When they get to the end of the line they turn around in a loop. Streetcars only have doors on one side of the vehicle. LRT cars can be driven from both ends and they turn around in the same manner as subways do. The LRT cars have doors on both sides of the vehicle and can load at centre platforms or side platforms. Streetcars only load on the right side of the car either into traffic or at a small platform.


----------



## Swede

ssiguy2 said:


> There is, technically, one big difference between streetcars and LRT which helps define them..........the vehicles themselves. While they use the same technology and track the vehicles for LRT are different. The 2 main difference between the LRT and streetcar/tram vehicles is that LRT have doors on BOTH sides of the train and LRT vehicles can be couple together while streetcars can't. Streetcars can certainly be articulated {like Toronto's} but one different vehicle cannot be attached to another different vehicle.
> 
> These are the 2 things that separate LRT and streetcars/trams universally throughout the world.


Where'd you get that from? doesn't mesh with reality here in Europe.


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## Nouvellecosse

It isn't universally true in NA either; it's only true in terms of the older streecar stock. In terms of modern stock, it's still generally true, however, that LRT in NA use larger and faster rolling stock than streetcars, and that streetcar aren't normally coupled here.


----------



## hkskyline

Red Rocket by Nicoli OZ Mathews, on Flickr


----------



## Innsertnamehere

Spadina has been fully the new streetcars for a few weeks now, and I took a ride on Monday.

Its the busiest I've ever seen the new streetcars, I've only ever rid them along Queens Quay otherwise, which is a much less busy route, so it was the first time I saw it crush loaded. First off, much better environment when crush loaded than on the old streetcars. Doesn't feel nearly as cramped, and you can see out the windows much easier when standing than you can on the old ones. Also feels much more like you are on the subway.. The huge amount of people, being able to look far down the length of the streetcar, and the interior is generally the same style as the TRs on the Yonge line. Plus a bonus of no streetcar driver yelling at passengers that they can't get on if they can't get behind the yellow line. Overall, a much more pleasant experience than the old streetcars. Makes me wish they were on the 501, which is my regular commuter line.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/john-torys-smarttrack-transit-plan-for-toronto-getting-smaller-cheaper/article28208774/



*John Tory’s SmartTrack transit plan for Toronto getting smaller, cheaper*












> Mayor John Tory’s SmartTrack transit plan is becoming smaller and cheaper, with the promise of more frequent service, The Globe and Mail has learned.
> 
> Staff with the city and the regional transit agency Metrolinx have been working on how to integrate SmartTrack with plans to expand GO Transit rail service, and, according to sources and a draft government document, a revamped version of the plan is taking shape.
> 
> The latest estimate is that the proposed integration of SmartTrack would add $2-billion to $3.5-billion to the existing GO plans.
> 
> Although details have not been finalized, Metrolinx staff are expected to recommend adding only four or five new stations along the Kitchener and Stouffville corridors, and an LRT – instead of heavy rail – along Eglinton Avenue West to Pearson airport. The plan originally called for three stations along that stretch, but with an LRT, staff are looking at between six and 17 stations.
> 
> SmartTrack was central to Mr. Tory’s successful mayoral campaign – featured on his lawn signs and referenced in nearly every appearance – even though his policy was not spelled out. As a candidate, and then as mayor, he argued that he didn’t have the resources to hire engineers to work out all the details of what he thought would be an $8-billion project.
> 
> Those studies were approved by city council, with the results expected to appear in the coming months.
> 
> At city hall, staff are expected to concur with Metrolinx that LRT is the best way to serve the western portion of Mr. Tory’s plan. And they will suggest that the service from the Mount Dennis neighbourhood in the west to Kennedy station in the east be prioritized, with this U-shaped section and the LRT forming Phase 1 of the project. The northeastern section up to Markham would be pushed into the future.


----------



## Nexis

Will Smartrack be similar London's Overground network?


----------



## Nexis

*3rd Quarter Public Transit Ridership numbers for the GTA *

Brampton / Brampton Transit - 72,300 (2015) : 4.09% 
Oakville / Oakville Transit - 12,200 (2015) : -7.35%
Richmond Hill / York Region Transit - 71,600 (2015) : -3.86%
Toronto / TTC Heavy Rail - 974,700 (2015) : 2.20%
Toronto / TTC Intermediate Rail - 31,600 (2015) : -22.83%
Toronto / TTC Light Rail - 269,800 (2015) : 0.21%
Toronto / TTC Bus - 1.282 Million (2015) : -6.67%


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## jay stew

What happened to the Downtown Relief Line?


----------



## Nexis

jay stew said:


> What happened to the Downtown Relief Line?


Isn't that the Smart track plan?


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## Innsertnamehere

Downtown relief line is currently in the Environmental Assessment phase. Its not Smart Track, its a new subway line running roughly from Pape station to King Station. A report is supposed to be out this month with the preferred alignment, with the EA finishing by the end of the year. Funding for construction has not been secured.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/major-revamp-of-contentious-scarborough-subway-plan-includes-fewer-stops/article28280303/

*New proposal for Scarborough subway plan includes fewer stops, New LRT to UTSC*












> A major revamp of the contentious $3.5-billion Scarborough subway is heading to council, The Globe and Mail has learned.
> 
> The plan drafted by city staff would lower the cost of the subway project by having fewer stations – one stop instead of three – by running the train directly from Kennedy station to Scarborough Town Centre and then stopping. According to a high level source who has been briefed on the proposal, the savings could be ploughed into extending the Eglinton Crosstown LRT to the University of Toronto campus in the east end.
> 
> Combined with other changes related to Mayor John Tory’s SmartTrack plan, the idea offers the prospect of an LRT eventually running from Pearson International Airport in the west to the U of T Scarborough campus in the east.
> 
> Sources said that shortening the subway and eliminating two stations would shave $1-billion off the cost of roughly $3.5-billion. Subway builders would avoid the costly exercise of tunnelling under the 401 highway to Sheppard Avenue, which was to have been the terminus of the subway.
> 
> The subway would no longer stop at Lawrence Avenue, but nearby stops on Mayor John Tory’s ‎proposed SmartTrack line would take up some of the ridership slack.


----------



## saiho

Innsertnamehere said:


> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/john-torys-smarttrack-transit-plan-for-toronto-getting-smaller-cheaper/article28208774/
> 
> *John Tory’s SmartTrack transit plan for Toronto getting smaller, cheaper*





Innsertnamehere said:


> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/major-revamp-of-contentious-scarborough-subway-plan-includes-fewer-stops/article28280303/
> 
> *New proposal for Scarborough subway plan includes fewer stops, New LRT to UTSC*


I find it really funny how though all the arguing and flip flopping they are slowly gravitating back towards the original RER + transit city plan.


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## Innsertnamehere

^ I enjoyed this tweet from a Toronto journalist today:


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## Urbanista1

this age old Toronto flip flop, it's getting tiring and spending $2.5 billion for one stop is nuts. Give Scarboro a real subway and let development intensify.


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## ssiguy2

McCowan road is quite thin and SFH residential so there is actually very little TOD potential along it. Since there will be no intermediate stations, why they don't save another billion by using the existing SRT corridor is anybody's guess.


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## Woonsocket54

TTC to introduce five new express bus routes in March 2016.

https://ttc.ca/News/2016/January/0125_express_bus.jsp


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## Innsertnamehere

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...posed-for-new-toronto-subway/article28460818/
*
City proposes Queen Street route for Toronto’s downtown relief line*

Plans for downtown Toronto’s first subway in decades are taking shape, with the city’s planning department urging that it run below Queen Street.

Details of the long-awaited downtown relief line – a route that has been discussed in various permutations for a century – emerged on Friday. According to information obtained by The Globe and Mail, staff have concluded that the best approach involves a connection from Pape Station near Danforth Avenue to the area around City Hall.

Although the plan is primarily about diverting passengers from the overcrowded Yonge subway line, a briefing for councillors made clear the value of the new line to the city centre as well. According to a draft staff presentation, the subway plan would “fill [a] rapid transit void in the core” and “recognizes that downtown is 24/7.”

The proposal pencils in stations along Queen Street around Sherbourne Street, Sumach Street and Broadview Avenue, and one near Gerrard Square. These would allow access to Regent Park and Moss Park, and offer the chance of a connection to the Stouffville GO corridor, which is expected to get much more frequent service under provincial and city plans.


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## isaidso

I hope they don't choose Queen as it will mean we'll likely never get a subway running along Queen all the way to Etobicoke on the Queensway and in the other direction to the Beaches. (I doubt we'll get 2 subway lines on Queen.)


----------



## dimlys1994




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## mrsmartman

Woonsocket54 said:


> TTC to introduce five new express bus routes in March 2016.
> 
> https://ttc.ca/News/2016/January/0125_express_bus.jsp


_Superbus_ would be cool. :cheers:


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## Maximalist

Toronto has such a pathetic record when it comes to public transit. Plans come and go but not a whole lot ever gets done. A relief line on Queen is at least a decade overdue and if it ever gets built it will be so many years down the road that it will already be overcapacity thanks to the huge towers being built in the downtown core. (I don't begrudge the towers, just the fact that public transit hasn't kept pace.) When projects proceed, like the Sheppard subway and the St. Clair dedicated street-car line, they are scandalously over budget, take far longer than promised (disrupting neighbour hoods and putting small businesses out of business) and really don't deliver the promised safety and efficiency gains. I really feel sorry for the folks on Eglinton if that line has half the problems of St. Clair. Meanwhile the Mayor's FastTrack plan is far too modest - and they're already cutting back on it! I don't know what it is about Toronto (well, bad leadership, uncoordinated planning and lack of financial support from senior levels of government, to begin with) that makes terrible public transit one of the city's defining qualities.


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## jay stew

Toronto needs to take some pointers from Montreal on how to run public transit.


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## isaidso

Maximalist said:


> I don't know what it is about Toronto (well, bad leadership, uncoordinated planning and lack of financial support from senior levels of government, to begin with) that makes terrible public transit one of the city's defining qualities.


It's partly the culture and the Canadian tendency to think modestly/small. Toronto exists in the most auto intensive region of north America. Michigan/Ontario was ground zero for the auto industry and spawned things like Highway 401, the busiest freeway on the planet. Mass transit has historically been viewed as a frivolous European thing we need not bother with. The huge population increase over the last few decades has forced people here to grudgingly accept that we need mass transit.

Then you have a population that's not used to making grand plans or aiming high. Toronto has historically been a blue collar city where ambition was frowned upon and modesty applauded. Transit demands thinking big but that's just not something that Toronto has ever been good at. Build it as basic as possible and never let it look like a waste of taxes by building it too lavish or extensive. The population is more interested in not rocking the boat and trying to satisfy lots of different interest groups at the same time. In end up serving none all to well in our continuous compromise 'solutions'. 

It's only because we're now in panic mode to fix our gridlock that anything is getting done. Sadly, few here seem to be able to look to the needs of Toronto 20-30 years into the future so we end up with the piece meal patch jobs. Rather than recognizing that we need a DRL and a Queen we'll build a DRL through Queen only to realize 15 years from now that we need a Queen Line as well. By then, it will be too late of course so we'll end up with another patch job to try and serve the Queensway and blend it into the DRL somehow.

London thinks big because they had an Empire. Toronto still thinks its a giant Winnipeg and behaves accordingly. It's maddening but this is just one area where we're absolutely hopeless.


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## saiho

isaidso said:


> I hope they don't choose Queen as it will mean we'll likely never get a subway running along Queen all the way to Etobicoke on the Queensway and in the other direction to the Beaches. (I doubt we'll get 2 subway lines on Queen.)


Why would you want a subway to the beaches area? That area is extremely interested in keeping its small town charm a subway there would go against everything it's BIA and residents value. On the Humber or New Toronto side, you can achieve better service at a lower cost with a GO Lakeshore West rapid transit line or local RER service. So I don't see how moving the Relief Line for this Queen line makes any sense. Anyways, either Queen and King are the good corridors for the line. I think the city did a pretty good job with the alignment. However, I would prefer a dual interchange that directly connects to the Yonge and University sides of the line instead of that single City Hall station kind of hanging out in limbo.


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## Urbanista1

the problem is that at every level of government politicians have played the anti-Toronto card to get elected and they then push for more highways and wasteful infrastructure in the burbs to service low density sprawl where their electorate live all built by their biggest supporters, the developers. Harris was the worst he even had the few sections of Eglinton Ave subway tunnels that were built buried. Such was his contempt for Toronto. Sadly, all of Ontario and Canada is now paying the price for this. And then there's Rob Ford, against any form of transportation except cars (massive suvs with one passenger preferred) and all the anti-pinko gay lesbian bike and transit-riding socialist tax and spend liberal commies that live in Toronto. It's very sad how we keep tearing up good plans. 

I think the route of the east relief line is ok with only a few stops in areas where intensification could occur and thereby offset stable mature neighbourhoods. Let's just do this already.


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## Black Cat

Metrolinx troubles: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ggling-union-pearson-express/article28661965/


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## dimlys1994

Options for Toronto RER system:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...sets-out-toronto-rer-options.html?channel=535










*Option A:* 4-6 minute peak frequencies and 7.5-minute off-peak frequencies with new stations serving Gerrard, Unilever, Bathurst-Spadina, Liberty Village and St Clair West

*Option B:* express and local services operating at 20-minute headways to give 10-minute frequencies at key stations in the core. Express services would only serve existing stations, while local services would call at existing stations and eight new stations: St Clair, Liberty Village, Bathurst-Spadina, Unilever, Gerrard-Carlaw, Ellesmere, Lawrence, and Finch

*Option C:* the funded and committed Go Transit/RER service of 5-10 minute peak and 15-minute off-peak frequencies with seven or eight new stations (as option B), and

*Option D:* 5-10 minute peak and 15-minute off-peak services with four or five new stations serving St Clair, Liberty Village, Unilever, and Gerrard- Carlaw.

All four options assume through operation between the Kitchener and Stoufville lines.

Also Metrolinx officials also provided an update on network electrification plans. Electrification will be on all of the five core RER corridors, UP Express, and other Go Transit lines that are 100% owned by Metrolinx (in means of track owning, some passenger services are shared with freight tracks). These include the Barrie Line to Allandale Waterfront, the Stouffville Line to Lincolnville, and the Lakeshore East Line to Oshawa.


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## 00Zy99

Any particular reason why the Richmond Hill and Milton lines are not being included? What about the rest of the very busy Lakeshore West line? Or service to Kitchener? I assume that the Bowmanville extension will be electrified?


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## saiho

00Zy99 said:


> Any particular reason why the Richmond Hill and Milton lines are not being included? What about the rest of the very busy Lakeshore West line? Or service to Kitchener? I assume that the Bowmanville extension will be electrified?


Major portions of the Milton line is not owned by GO and CP rail (the owner of the tracks) is not very receptive of GO putting wires over their assets. The Richmond Hill Line I think has issues with CN on the Doncaster diamond grade separation. Electrification to Hamilton and Kitchener is part of the vision but at the moment it is not cost effective to electrify them now.


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## Innsertnamehere

Richmond Hill has issues with it mainly running through the Don Valley. Any major changes to that line will have large environmental effects, especially if they want to fix the issue of the tracks flooding.

Milton is CP's mainline, so GO needs to spend billions to essentially build its own parallel corridor if it wants to electrify it. Its the same reason for Hamilton and Kitchener, they hit privately owned tracks.

There is a plan to build a freight bypass track to shift freight off of the Kitchener and Milton lines, which would allow GO to electrify them. Its in its early stages, but it would involve a roughly 20km long new rail line along the 407 corridor connecting CN's current bypass track to CP's mainline between Mississauga and Milton.. removing freight entirely from central Toronto and letting Metrolinx electrify and upgrade the existing GO lines.

Current setup of rail traffic in Toronto:










with the "missing link" freight bypass:


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## Nexis

> *Thousands line up for up to 3 hours to try UP Express on Family Day*
> 
> Thousands of people have been lining up for up to three hours or more in Toronto on Monday to take a train that normally struggles to fill more than 10 per cent of its seats: the Union Pearson Express (UPX).
> 
> They're taking advantage of the opportunity to ride the train for free on Family Day weekend, courtesy of Metrolinx. And according to the regional transit agency, many of them say they're doing it just to try it out.
> 
> Metrolinx spokesperson Anne-Marie Aikins told CBC News that Metrolinx made the move to show people how easy the train is to get to and how quick it is to make the trip between Union Station and Pearson airport, and she said Torontonians have responding in record numbers. The free rides are scheduled to end at 1 a.m. Tuesday.
> 
> [...]
> 
> On Saturday, more than 10,000 people rode the train. Aikins estimated that as many as 15,000 people had taken the train on Monday by the middle of the afternoon.


Read more Here


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## Falubaz

The high fare for this line is a joke. When will they get that finaly? The 'free ride day' wont change it. People will try and come never again.


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## jay stew

https://twitter.com/fenixconnexion/status/699627102325207040/photo/1


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## ainvan

*Toronto Unveils 6 and 15 Year TTC and GO RER/SmartTrack Plans*


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## Nexis

jay stew said:


> https://twitter.com/fenixconnexion/status/699627102325207040/photo/1


I hate when they cover the windows with wraps like that...hno:


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## jay stew

^^ The streetcar was used as a pop-up Nike shop for NBA All-Star Weekend.


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## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> I think this was really the problem. They were expecting the project to recoup the initial investment, when most public transport projects do well to just cover their operating costs. If UPX was expected to be so lucrative that the farebox would cover not only the operating costs but also the initial investment to build it, then the private sector could and should have done it without government help.
> 
> But with many infrastructure projects, the benefits aren't direct financial benefits (profit), but rather indirect economic benefits and quality of life enhancements. If that's the case, then the farebox recovery ratio shouldn't be as important in terms of judging the project's benefits and overall success. Perhaps this is just a case of unrealistic expectations.


You can't repay interest and principal by touting the non-financial benefits. The reality is they need to break even and not have this drain government resources for years to come. It was not a sound financial decision to build it in the first place, but now that the thing is open and running, it is time to turn this UPX into a typical TTC commuter service and hopefully minimize the losses.


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## Nouvellecosse

hkskyline said:


> You can't repay interest and principal by touting the non-financial benefits


Much in the same way that you can't repay the cost of your other worthwhile expenditures like food, shelter, clothing or recreation by touting the non-financial benefits. You don't need to prove that something doesn't cost anything or pays for itself in order for it to be worthwhile. 



hkskyline said:


> The reality is they need to break even and not have this drain government resources for years to come. It was not a sound financial decision to build it in the first place, but now that the thing is open and running, it is time to turn this UPX into a typical TTC commuter service and hopefully minimize the losses.


If that was the case, it would apply equally to all public transport services, and all public services in general. The vast majority of public transport services outside eastern Asia don't cover their total operating cost or any of their capital cost. Such investments aren't a "drain on government resources", they're the reason governments exist and gather resources though tax dollars in the first place. Governments' main purpose is to provide services whose benefit is something other than a direct financial return. Services whose benefit is a direct financial return don't usually need government assistance.

Not to mention the irony in how you suggest that the UPX should be GO branded to help it recoup the investment, when GO transit itself has a farebox recovery ratio under 80%. It doesn't pay for any capital costs either, so that's a complete non-issue.


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## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> If that was the case, it would apply equally to all public transport services, and all public services in general. The vast majority of public transport services outside eastern Asia don't cover their total operating cost or any of their capital cost. Such investments aren't a "drain on government resources", they're the reason governments exist and gather resources though tax dollars in the first place. Governments' main purpose is to provide services whose benefit is something other than a direct financial return. Services whose benefit is a direct financial return don't usually need government assistance.
> 
> Not to mention the irony in how you suggest that the UPX should be GO branded to help it recoup the investment, when GO transit itself has a farebox recovery ratio under 80%. It doesn't pay for any capital costs either, so that's a complete non-issue.


Well, if providing "services whose benefit is something other than a direct financial return", then the money for UPX should have gone to other lines that have a far more pressing need but would have lost money anyway, instead of building dedicated airport line perceived to be for rich business people and not for the average joe getting to work. But then, a lot of these decisions are political and not necessarily align to the biggest need.

As alluded to previously, the fact that the private sector stepped away from this in the first place probably hinted the government can drain their tax dollars and lose money for more worthwhile causes. It is now a sunk cost so the next step is to make it more suitable for the average joe and hopefully cut some of the losses at the same time.


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## Nouvellecosse

Whether or not this line was the best use of funds compared to other potential projects is a great question, but it's a totally separate question from how line should be administered now that the investment has been made. The fact is, the decision was made to invest in a line designed to be a low passenger volume airport express service, and trying to use it for something that it wasn't designed for and is totally unsuitable for, such as a high volume commuter service, does nothing to add value to it. That would simply cost a lot more money that would be better spent upgrading the Kitchener GO line.

There's an old saying in the West, which is "Locking the barn door after the horse has escaped" which basically just means that it's pointless to take actions that would have been useful to prevent something negative before it happened, but does nothing to correct it once it occurs.


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## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> Whether or not this line was the best use of funds compared to other potential projects is a great question, but it's a totally separate question from how line should be administered now that the investment has been made. The fact is, the decision was made to invest in a line designed to be a low passenger volume airport express service, and trying to use it for something that it wasn't designed for and is totally unsuitable for, such as a high volume commuter service, does nothing to add value to it. That would simply cost a lot more money that would be better spent upgrading the Kitchener GO line.
> 
> There's an old saying in the West, which is "Locking the barn door after the horse has escaped" which basically just means that it's pointless to take actions that would have been useful to prevent something negative before it happened, but does nothing to correct it once it occurs.


So people know UPX is not going to work the way it is now. People know it needs to embrace commuter service in order to succeed and stop bleeding. The solution is to upgrade another line that can achieve the same rather than easily increase frequencies on the UPX to at least provide some sort of minimal but improved commuter service.

Sounds like Western inertia and incompetence. Who is getting paid to make these decisions?

I eagerly await ridership statistics a few months from now to see whether commuters have embraced the cheaper fares. If that doesn't work out, then even upgrading GO won't achieve much for the residents along the line within 416's borders.


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## Nouvellecosse

hkskyline said:


> So people know UPX is not going to work the way it is now.


People know it wasn't getting the expected ridership with the previous prices, but I haven't heard anyone suggest that the lower prices won't allow it work better. I'm not sure what you're drawing this conclusion from. 



hkskyline said:


> People know it needs to embrace commuter service in order to succeed and stop bleeding.


I haven't heard anyone suggest this other than you, and I've explained several reasons why it isn't true.



hkskyline said:


> The solution is to upgrade another line that can achieve the same rather than easily increase frequencies on the UPX to at least provide some sort of minimal but improved commuter service.
> 
> Sounds like Western inertia and incompetence. Who is getting paid to make these decisions?



If it actually were easier and more cost effective to alter the UPX to handle high passenger volumes than to upgrade another adjacent line, then that might be true. But it would be harder, more expensive, and less practical. To spend more money on one line to accomplish the same thing that could be accomplished by spending less money on another line would definitely be silly.



hkskyline said:


> I eagerly await ridership statistics a few months from now to see whether commuters have embraced the cheaper fares. If that doesn't work out, then even upgrading GO won't achieve much for the residents along the line within 416's borders.


Well the UPX is intended to provide an express connection between downtown and the airport for travellers, so as long as the lower fares capture more of that traffic then it will be a success. It isn't intended for commuters like GO is, so the UPX not appealing to a market that it isn't intended for has nothing to do with whether GO will appeal to a market that it actually is intended for. No matter how hard someone tries to connect it, there's just no connection.


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> If it actually were easier and more cost effective to alter the UPX to handle high passenger volumes than to upgrade another adjacent line, then that might be true. But it would be harder, more expensive, and less practical. To spend more money on one line to accomplish the same thing that could be accomplished by spending less money on another line would definitely be silly.
> 
> Well the UPX is intended to provide an express connection between downtown and the airport for travellers, so as long as the lower fares capture more of that traffic then it will be a success. It isn't intended for commuters like GO is, so the UPX not appealing to a market that it isn't intended for has nothing to do with whether GO will appeal to a market that it actually is intended for. No matter how hard someone tries to connect it, there's just no connection.


The government bureaucrats said othewrise. Premier Kathleen Wynne suggested the possibility of better using the intermediate stations to passengers to reach downtown and told Metrolinx to look into it. So this is not going to survive as a dedicated airport express line.

City Councillor Josh Matlow also commented in the same article that is is shameful to spend half a billion for a business traveler's luxury train in light of the city's transit needs.

So the success factor is not more airport passengers taking UPX, but for it to be a service for city residents. Needless to say, the ultimate result is a popular line that can break even. 

A 12-coach GO train can seat 1800 passengers. During the weekday rush, trains stop inside 416 borders only about every 30 minutes. 

A 3-car UPX train can accomodate 173 seated passengers. If service is modestly improved from 4x an hour to 8x an hour, the line's capacity jumps to almost 1400 passengers, which is comparable to a GO train, but spreads the load over time and offers more choice / frequency for customers. 

So I don't see why people think turning UPX into a commuter line isn't sustainable, and that the infrastructure cannot handle it. This is assuming the 3-car UPX trains stay, so there are no station modifications whatsoever. Run the same trains more frequently. Simple.

Keep in mind GO's Kitchener line, which is a commuter service, runs at quite sparse frequencies.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

City councillors and provincial Premiers aren't government bureaucrats, they're politicians. A bureaucrat is someone who works in the background to organize and manage things, and a politician is someone who works in the foreground to gain public support for the government and its agenda. 

The article and Premier's comments don't give any indication that such an option is a good idea, or will ever happen. They're simply non-committal, off-the-cuff comments by a non-expert after a critical report was released, in order to calm public criticism. Obviously she's taking heat in terms of the service's cost in light of the ridership numbers, so she said that Metrolink needs to "look at all the options" in order to appease the public (damage control). That doesn't mean such an option is feasible or even preferable, nor does the article suggest in any way that it is. She admitted right in the same article that the line isn't designed to be a commuter service.

Of course, it is possible that politicians could interfere with transit planners and impose impractical political decisions (something that you criticised earlier in the thread) but I suspect you'll be much more forgiving if they're decision you personally agree with. 



hkskyline said:


> A 12-coach GO train can seat 1800 passengers. During the weekday rush, trains stop inside 416 borders only about every 30 minutes.
> 
> A 3-car UPX train can accomodate 173 seated passengers. If service is modestly improved from 4x an hour to 8x an hour, the line's capacity jumps to almost 1400 passengers, which is comparable to a GO train, but spreads the load over time and offers more choice / frequency for customers.
> 
> So I don't see why people think turning UPX into a commuter line isn't sustainable, and that the infrastructure cannot handle it. This is assuming the 3-car UPX trains stay, so there are no station modifications whatsoever. Run the same trains more frequently. Simple.
> 
> Keep in mind GO's Kitchener line, which is a commuter service, runs at quite sparse frequencies.


If you're going to spend the money needed to increase the number of train trips that the corridor can handle, it makes much more sense to increase the number of longer trains than the number of shorter trains. It's much easier to add an extra two trains per hour than four trains per hour, and two more GO trains adds much more capacity (3600) than four more UPX trains (692). And the airport doesn't need the extra service, but stop further along the Kitchener line such as Bramlea could use it. If the central corridor actually can handle an extra 4 trains per hour, then it makes sense for them to be longer rather than shorter trains. That's why.


Btw, doubling the service frequency (100% more) of a line isn't a modest increase.


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## 00Zy99

The UPX operates over tha section of line with the most tracks, which means that the line can better absorb more trains, with less work. Also, UPX and GO use different platforms heights (GO really needs to go to high-platforms), and therefore it would be easier in some ways to use UPX, if the fleet is already available.


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## Nouvellecosse

Increasing service on the Kitchener line doesn't mean the entire line. There's no reason that GO needs to extend the service increases further than the tracks can handle (unless of course passenger volume further out demands it). But if it does, then UPX service doesn't help with that either. There are alady cases when GO trips only extend part way, such as on Lakeshore West, which has trips that only run between intermediate stations such as between Oakville and Union.

Would definitely be nice for GO to get high platforms though. Maybe someday...


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> The article and Premier's comments don't give any indication that such an option is a good idea, or will ever happen. They're simply non-committal, off-the-cuff comments by a non-expert after a critical report was released, in order to calm public criticism. Obviously she's taking heat in terms of the service's cost in light of the ridership numbers, so she said that Metrolink needs to "look at all the options" in order to appease the public (damage control). That doesn't mean such an option is feasible or even preferable, nor does the article suggest in any way that it is. She admitted right in the same article that the line isn't designed to be a commuter service.


When the government that funded this thing speaks out that things will change, it is good indication that something will indeed change ahead. We saw the fares go down. Let's see what more comes next. 

You can't deny there has been a lot of rumblings against keeping the UPX as a dedicated airport line for business travelers in light of the city's transit needs.

According to the latest UPX passenger numbers just released a few days ago, commuters accounted for 17% of ridership on the first day of the new cheaper price. 

The different levels of government committed, re-committed, but never gave funding when it comes to infrastructure in Toronto over the past few decades. But with UPX failing, the Premier made a good suggestion that they look at commuter traffic when airport traffic failed to materialize. This is strong indication that the dedicated airport line for business travelers is over.

So the change will be turning this dedicated airport line to commuter service, which she said needs to be explored.



Nouvellecosse said:


> If you're going to spend the money needed to increase the number of train trips that the corridor can handle, it makes much more sense to increase the number of longer trains than the number of shorter trains. It's much easier to add an extra two trains per hour than four trains per hour, and two more GO trains adds much more capacity (3600) than four more UPX trains (692). And the airport doesn't need the extra service, but stop further along the Kitchener line such as Bramlea could use it. If the central corridor actually can handle an extra 4 trains per hour, then it makes sense for them to be longer rather than shorter trains. That's why.


Not all GO trains stop within 416. GO service is not intended to serve 416 commuters, but rather bring long distance commutes into Union within a reasonable amount of time. That being said, the TTC and GO can most certainly work with UPX on fare alignment, which has been suggested and is the right step for transit integration (so much for a dedicated airport line for business travelers). 



Nouvellecosse said:


> Btw, doubling the service frequency (100% more) of a line isn't a modest increase.


Looking at the passenger numbers, the increase is modest.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

hkskyline said:


> When the government that funded this thing speaks out that things will change, it is good indication that something will indeed change ahead. We saw the fares go down. Let's see what more comes next.


But based on the article you posted, the government has not committed to any changes. It only says that Metrolink will be looking at "all the options". That's basically government speak for wanting to pacify the public's current anger by appearing to take action, so that they can decide later on to do whatever is most appropriate after people have mostly forgotten about the issue.



hkskyline said:


> You can't deny there has been a lot of rumblings against keeping the UPX as a dedicated airport line for business travelers in light of the city's transit needs.


There were people who weren't pleased about the original decision to build the line to begin with who I'm sure will use the low ridership numbers as an excuse to attack the project further. But the people who were open to the project to begin with seem to be satisfied with the fare re-structuring. 

Personally, I didn't consider this route the most important priority, but I do understand that when it comes to big events like the Pan Am games, there is a certain amount of momentum that a city can capitalize on to accomplish things that may not be possible otherwise. Such events can help create the sense of urgency to dislodge political deadlock. So it may not have been a choice between this project and something else, but rather between this and further stagnation. And from that perspective, something is much better than nothing.



hkskyline said:


> According to the latest UPX passenger numbers just released a few days ago, commuters accounted for 17% of ridership on the first day of the new cheaper price.
> 
> The different levels of government committed, re-committed, but never gave funding when it comes to infrastructure in Toronto over the past few decades. But with UPX failing, the Premier made a good suggestion that they look at commuter traffic when airport traffic failed to materialize. This is strong indication that the dedicated airport line for business travelers is over.
> 
> So the change will be turning this dedicated airport line to commuter service, which she said needs to be explored.


UPX isn't failing; the previous pricing structure was failing. That kind of dramatization seems to be popular among those who disliked the project to begin with, but something being popular doesn't make it true.

And about those ridership numbers, 17% commuters seems extremely low which is exactly what I'd expect for a line not intended for commuter service. And the article doesn't even say if that percentage actually increased after the price drop. For all we know, the new pricing just attracted more airport travellers, and commuters made up an even smaller percentage than before!



hkskyline said:


> Not all GO trains stop within 416. GO service is not intended to serve 416 commuters, but rather bring long distance commutes into Union within a reasonable amount of time. That being said, the TTC and GO can most certainly work with UPX on fare alignment, which has been suggested and is the right step for transit integration (so much for a dedicated airport line for business travelers).


Not all GO trains stop in the 416, but all GO routes have stops within the 416. And there's no reason why further investment couldn't be made to enhance the service to those stops or even create new ones. What's clear is that investing additional funds in GO would provide capacity to far more passengers than if the same additional investment were made to UPX.



hkskyline said:


> Looking at the passenger numbers, the increase is modest.


Not according to the article you posted! That article said:

"A week after the provincial agency cut fares by more than half, early estimates show that ridership is holding steady at about 5,000 a day.
Before the price drop, the UPX was only drawing about 2,000 to 2,200 riders."

That's an increase of OVER 100%. Just imagine if someone who weighed 150lbs gained over 150lbs and called it a modest weight increase. Or someone who made $25,000 per year had their pay increase to over $50,000, and said they got a modest pay raise. 

I wouldn't call anything beyond a 25% increase modest. That would mean a service with 4 trains per hour increasing to 5.


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> But based on the article you posted, the government has not committed to any changes. It only says that Metrolink will be looking at "all the options". That's basically government speak for wanting to pacify the public's current anger by appearing to take action, so that they can decide later on to do whatever is most appropriate after people have mostly forgotten about the issue.


But UPX is indeed changing. Fares went down significantly and is not staying as the premium service for business travelers. It is not just some BS political talk amounting to nothing. The rumblings about empty trains pushed management to act unexpectedly early.



Nouvellecosse said:


> There were people who weren't pleased about the original decision to build the line to begin with who I'm sure will use the low ridership numbers as an excuse to attack the project further. But the people who were open to the project to begin with seem to be satisfied with the fare re-structuring.
> 
> Personally, I didn't consider this route the most important priority, but I do understand that when it comes to big events like the Pan Am games, there is a certain amount of momentum that a city can capitalize on to accomplish things that may not be possible otherwise. Such events can help create the sense of urgency to dislodge political deadlock. So it may not have been a choice between this project and something else, but rather between this and further stagnation. And from that perspective, something is much better than nothing.


The problem with Toronto is it needs big ticket one-offs to push through vital infrastructure developments that were needed 20 years ago. When Olympic bids failed, the promises fell apart. At least this one did come into fruition while the Gardiner remains a decaying eyesore as is the Portlands. 

I wouldn't give any applause they got a useless line which is considered better than nothing. Who pays for its construction? Who pays for its operation? Ultimately, the taxpayer is on the hook, so is anything better than nothing really a good thing?



Nouvellecosse said:


> UPX isn't failing; the previous pricing structure was failing. That kind of dramatization seems to be popular among those who disliked the project to begin with, but something being popular doesn't make it true.


Both pricing and the concept failed, and it is easy to see why. Check the passenger numbers at Pearson. 

Average daily passenger volume (based on 2015 YTD September data published by GTAA) at Pearson was over 116,000 passengers (31.4 million total). Yet, ridership on the UPX bounced from 2000 to 5000 only. Isn't that a pitiful figure? So is the dedicated airport express line successful when such a tiny fraction of the airport's passengers get there by a half billion dollar train?



Nouvellecosse said:


> And about those ridership numbers, 17% commuters seems extremely low which is exactly what I'd expect for a line not intended for commuter service. And the article doesn't even say if that percentage actually increased after the price drop. For all we know, the new pricing just attracted more airport travellers, and commuters made up an even smaller percentage than before!


Actually, 1 in 5 riders being commuters is very high given the UPX is a much more expensive alternative to the TTC even after the fares went down and there is no fare or route integration whatsoever with the TTC or GO. This shows commuter use has good potential. Combined with the above stats on airport usage, it shows how insignificant UPX is for passengers using the airport. So it is time to look beyond the airport.

5000 passengers, or which only 83% are for the airport, for an average daily airport usage of 116,000 is pitiful. 



Nouvellecosse said:


> Not all GO trains stop in the 416, but all GO routes have stops within the 416. And there's no reason why further investment couldn't be made to enhance the service to those stops or even create new ones. What's clear is that investing additional funds in GO would provide capacity to far more passengers than if the same additional investment were made to UPX.


Those that live in the far areas of the GTA that use GO, and what GO was intended to be used for, won't be happy their long commutes are about to get much longer by adding many stops within 416.

So if investing in GO is the answer, then UPX should go away and its infrastructure converted to GO.



Nouvellecosse said:


> Not according to the article you posted! That article said:
> 
> "A week after the provincial agency cut fares by more than half, early estimates show that ridership is holding steady at about 5,000 a day.
> Before the price drop, the UPX was only drawing about 2,000 to 2,200 riders."
> 
> That's an increase of OVER 100%. Just imagine if someone who weighed 150lbs gained over 150lbs and called it a modest weight increase. Or someone who made $25,000 per year had their pay increase to over $50,000, and said they got a modest pay raise.
> 
> I wouldn't call anything beyond a 25% increase modest. That would mean a service with 4 trains per hour increasing to 5.


5000 a day is nothing when the 504 King's average daily usage is > 56,000 passengers (http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/reports/operating-statistics-2012.pdf). I won't put subway ridership stats here to make it even more pitifully depressing. The UPX hasn't made any spectacular improvement in the grand scheme of things, half a billion later. They haven't even reached breakeven ridership yet.


----------



## ainvan

^^You guys are killing this thread 

Every time I opened this thread, I thought I was going to read the latest news of TTC.


----------



## dimlys1994

Two videos on Crosstown project:


----------



## Nouvellecosse

hkskyline said:


> But UPX is indeed changing. Fares went down significantly and is not staying as the premium service for business travelers. It is not just some BS political talk amounting to nothing. The rumblings about empty trains pushed management to act unexpectedly early.


The price being lowered doesn't change the service. It only changes who is willing and/or able to afford the service. People are paying less for the same thing, but at this point in time, it is still in fact the same thing. Just like lowering the price for a dozen of eggs doesn't change the eggs either.



hkskyline said:


> The problem with Toronto is it needs big ticket one-offs to push through vital infrastructure developments that were needed 20 years ago. When Olympic bids failed, the promises fell apart. At least this one did come into fruition while the Gardiner remains a decaying eyesore as is the Portlands.
> 
> I wouldn't give any applause they got a useless line which is considered better than nothing. Who pays for its construction? Who pays for its operation? Ultimately, the taxpayer is on the hook, so is anything better than nothing really a good thing?oth pricing and the concept failed, and it is easy to see why. Check the passenger numbers at Pearson.
> 
> Average daily passenger volume (based on 2015 YTD September data published by GTAA) at Pearson was over 116,000 passengers (31.4 million total). Yet, ridership on the UPX bounced from 2000 to 5000 only. Isn't that a pitiful figure? So is the dedicated airport express line successful when such a tiny fraction of the airport's passengers get there by a half billion dollar train?



You seem to be forgetting that not everyone passing through the airport is even going downtown. The airport serves a metro area of over 6 million in a region of several million more, and perhaps a few hundred thousand live downtown. Not to mention that UPX has only been active for a few months which isn't much time to become engrained in people's lifestyles. But despite the small percentage of people living downtown, having an express, congestion-free connection to downtown is obviously important for economic reasons.

What it comes down to, is that no conclusions about the overall success or failure of the service can be drawn at such early stage (unless a person's mind is already made up of course). Once the service has been active for a few years and things like pricing and promotion have had time to be optimized, then it's time to judge.



hkskyline said:


> Actually, 1 in 5 riders being commuters is very high given the UPX is a much more expensive alternative to the TTC even after the fares went down and there is no fare or route integration whatsoever with the TTC or GO. This shows commuter use has good potential. Combined with the above stats on airport usage, it shows how insignificant UPX is for passengers using the airport. So it is time to look beyond the airport.
> 
> 5000 passengers, or which only 83% are for the airport, for an average daily airport usage of 116,000 is pitiful.


You can't say the high fare means that the 17% commuter number shows "good potential" without also agreeing that having 83% as airport traffic despite the also high fare doesn't show that segment has far better potential. The fare is high for both commuters and travellers, yet 83% are travellers. 




hkskyline said:


> Those that live in the far areas of the GTA that use GO, and what GO was intended to be used for, won't be happy their long commutes are about to get much longer by adding many stops within 416.
> 
> So if investing in GO is the answer, then UPX should go away and its infrastructure converted to GO.


 That doesn't even make sense. Obviously I was talking about making physical improvements to GO infrastructure to allow for better service on those routes. That has nothing to do with UPX. If UPX "went away" then the investment in the airport spur and the airport station would go to waste.

As we'e already recently discussed, not all GO trains stop at all stops even now. I have no idea why you'd assume adding extra service to stops in more central areas would have to impact any trains running express to outer areas. Why would all trains suddenly have to call at all stops? If UPX trains can serve just the section between downtown and the airport, there's no reason GO services can't be added to run only between downtown and Weston, Malton, or Bramlea, with infill stops added in between. 




hkskyline said:


> 5000 a day is nothing when the 504 King's average daily usage is > 56,000 passengers (http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/reports/operating-statistics-2012.pdf). I won't put subway ridership stats here to make it even more pitifully depressing. The UPX hasn't made any spectacular improvement in the grand scheme of things, half a billion later. They haven't even reached breakeven ridership yet.


Whether an increase in service is modest or significant depends on how the new service level compares to the previous, not how it compares to some other unrelated service. That would be like saying a person gaining 100kg is a modest weight gain since it would barely be noticeable on a whale. A 100% increase in service or ridership is a huge increase regardless of how you want to spin it.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

ainvan said:


> ^^You guys are killing this thread
> 
> Every time I opened this thread, I thought I was going to read the latest news of TTC.


Keeping a discussion thread active with lively discussion when it would otherwise be buried for days, weeks, or even months is killing it? It may not be convenient for those not interested in discussion, but that's about it. 

I suspect the Steve Munro blog, urban toronto, ttcriders.ca, or the TTC website itself would probably be better for pure news.


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> The price being lowered doesn't change the service. It only changes who is willing and/or able to afford the service. People are paying less for the same thing, but at this point in time, it is still in fact the same thing. Just like lowering the price for a dozen of eggs doesn't change the eggs either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to be forgetting that not everyone passing through the airport is even going downtown. The airport serves a metro area of over 6 million in a region of several million more, and perhaps a few hundred thousand live downtown. Not to mention that UPX has only been active for a few months which isn't much time to become engrained in people's lifestyles. But despite the small percentage of people living downtown, having an express, congestion-free connection to downtown is obviously important for economic reasons.
> 
> What it comes down to, is that no conclusions about the overall success or failure of the service can be drawn at such early stage (unless a person's mind is already made up of course). Once the service has been active for a few years and things like pricing and promotion have had time to be optimized, then it's time to judge.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't say the high fare means that the 17% commuter number shows "good potential" without also agreeing that having 83% as airport traffic despite the also high fare doesn't show that segment has far better potential. The fare is high for both commuters and travellers, yet 83% are travellers.
> 
> 
> That doesn't even make sense. Obviously I was talking about making physical improvements to GO infrastructure to allow for better service on those routes. That has nothing to do with UPX. If UPX "went away" then the investment in the airport spur and the airport station would go to waste.
> 
> As we'e already recently discussed, not all GO trains stop at all stops even now. I have no idea why you'd assume adding extra service to stops in more central areas would have to impact any trains running express to outer areas. Why would all trains suddenly have to call at all stops? If UPX trains can serve just the section between downtown and the airport, there's no reason GO services can't be added to run only between downtown and Weston, Malton, or Bramlea, with infill stops added in between.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whether an increase in service is modest or significant depends on how the new service level compares to the previous, not how it compares to some other unrelated service. That would be like saying a person gaining 100kg is a modest weight gain since it would barely be noticeable on a whale. A 100% increase in service or ridership is a huge increase regardless of how you want to spin it.


Not sure why you like to play with words. UPX has always been a heavy rail service and will continue to be. The fact that commuter ridership is gaining traction means it is helping the taxpayers that paid for it to use it beyond a dedicated airport express service. Even with expanded platforms, increased service, and longer trains, it is still a heavy rail service. 

I don't buy the ignorance and settling in period. There are signs at the airport indicating the new service. There was a huge marketing campaign that even got the international press going. Theoretically, ridership should improve as time progresses, but it didn't, which was why they had to re-design the whole concept. The fact that not all airport users would need a service to downtown means this dedicated airport rail needs to be less of that in order to be successful.

Hence, commuter service is key.

Looking at the numbers so far, the UPX is an underused service, not even the preferred way to get to the airport. That is a failure. People may make excuses to give it more time, but UPX management seems to have realized this, forcing to make drastic changes to pricing in order to be less of a dedicated business traveler premium service that it was initially built for. 

A dedicated airport rail link indeed has economic significance, just as a commuter service for West End residents can also bring tremendous economic benefits as well. We look at Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect as a good example of how the same set of tracks can cater for both types of customers to maximize use of the infrastructure.

83% is the positive spin but patronage of 2-5k a day for an airport serving an average of 116k passengers is also a reality. The latter set of statistics is far more worrying, and should not be ignored. 100% increase may seem big but the actual ridership of 5000 is nothing to be proud of for a half billion invested.

The current frequencies along that corridor can cater for both UPX and GO sharing the same set of tracks. They didn't build it this way to save money for some reason. But GO should always be a fast service to sprawl land. After the improvements, even if some GO trains call at a subset of 416 stations, it will definitely impact the schedule of the express trains stuck behind it (in mathematics this is called network flow theory), unless GO doesn't intend to run frequent all-day service as it envisioned.

This is where the UPX can help with its dedicated tracks.


----------



## Woonsocket54

major accident at Crosstown LRT subway construction site

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...-as-bathurst-eglinton-building-collapses.html


----------



## Nouvellecosse

hkskyline said:


> Not sure why you like to play with words. UPX has always been a heavy rail service and will continue to be. The fact that commuter ridership is gaining traction means it is helping the taxpayers that paid for it to use it beyond a dedicated airport express service. Even with expanded platforms, increased service, and longer trains, it is still a heavy rail service.


Are you implying that the only type of transportation that taypayers need or benefit from is for getting to and from work? Taxpayers don't travel to other places like the airport? And taxpayers don't benefit from the economic impacts of an airport rail link?



hkskyline said:


> I don't buy the ignorance and settling in period. There are signs at the airport indicating the new service. There was a huge marketing campaign that even got the international press going. Theoretically, ridership should improve as time progresses, but it didn't, which was why they had to re-design the whole concept. The fact that not all airport users would need a service to downtown means this dedicated airport rail needs to be less of that in order to be successful.
> 
> 
> hkskyline said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't buy it? You do realise that this affects every new rail service don't you? YOu think UPX is somehow magically immune? As we've discussed multiple times, being new is but one factor, which does indeed affect every new line, but the pricing was another major factor which as already been corrected. Are you suggesting that things can only be caused or affected by a single factor?
> 
> 
> 
> Hence, commuter service is key.
> 
> Looking at the numbers so far, the UPX is an underused service, not even the preferred way to get to the airport. That is a failure. People may make excuses to give it more time, but UPX management seems to have realized this, forcing to make drastic changes to pricing in order to be less of a dedicated business traveler premium service that it was initially built for.
> 
> A dedicated airport rail link indeed has economic significance, just as a commuter service for West End residents can also bring tremendous economic benefits as well. We look at Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect as a good example of how the same set of tracks can cater for both types of customers to maximize use of the infrastructure.
> 
> 83% is the positive spin but patronage of 2-5k a day for an airport serving an average of 116k passengers is also a reality. The latter set of statistics is far more worrying, and should not be ignored. 100% increase may seem big but the actual ridership of 5000 is nothing to be proud of for a half billion invested.
Click to expand...

One thing that it's important to remember, is that during peak times the service isn't underused, and it's only at off-peak times that the trains are mostly empty. In that sense, trying to attract commuter service which is very peak-period focused, may actually be detrimental to operation of the line.



hkskyline said:


> The current frequencies along that corridor can cater for both UPX and GO sharing the same set of tracks. They didn't build it this way to save money for some reason. But GO should always be a fast service to sprawl land. After the improvements, even if some GO trains call at a subset of 416 stations, it will definitely impact the schedule of the express trains stuck behind it (in mathematics this is called network flow theory), unless GO doesn't intend to run frequent all-day service as it envisioned.
> 
> This is where the UPX can help with its dedicated tracks.


Do you have anything which which to back up this claim? Just thinking that something sounds logical doesn't necessarily make it true. GO service to outer areas isn't that frequent that there's going to be major issues with more trips that serve just the central areas. Especially if there are bypass tracks at the stations. Not to mention that an inner suburban GO service could also share the UPX tracks if GO chose to use highfloor trains. And this would avoid expensive platform extensions and increased frequency at the airport where the capacity is totally unneeded.


----------



## Nexis

*4th quarter daily public Transit Ridership for Toronto Subways*

Toronto / Toronto Transit Commission - 1,037.4 Million (2015) : 0.07%


----------



## mrsmartman

Toronto is one of the major urban centers in Canada.


----------



## Nexis

*New fare gates at TTC's Main Street Station - time lapse*


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> Are you implying that the only type of transportation that taypayers need or benefit from is for getting to and from work? Taxpayers don't travel to other places like the airport? And taxpayers don't benefit from the economic impacts of an airport rail link?


Are you saying a premium dedicated airport link takes priority over commuter transit for average people getting to/from work? I don't think the taxpayers would like that prioritization. The passenger numbers also don't support such a prioritization.



Nouvellecosse said:


> One thing that it's important to remember, is that during peak times the service isn't underused, and it's only at off-peak times that the trains are mostly empty. In that sense, trying to attract commuter service which is very peak-period focused, may actually be detrimental to operation of the line.


You don't build transit just to address the peaks. The overall patronage figures are pitiful, which is interesting because air traffic tends to space out throughout the day rather than have marked peaks like regular commuter rush hours.



Nouvellecosse said:


> Do you have anything which which to back up this claim? Just thinking that something sounds logical doesn't necessarily make it true. GO service to outer areas isn't that frequent that there's going to be major issues with more trips that serve just the central areas. Especially if there are bypass tracks at the stations. Not to mention that an inner suburban GO service could also share the UPX tracks if GO chose to use highfloor trains. And this would avoid expensive platform extensions and increased frequency at the airport where the capacity is totally unneeded.


I don't understand why they need to build a lot of new infrastructure to add by-pass tracks and maybe even add extra tracks for inner city service when there is already infrastructure built on an under-used airport line that could adapt itself to cater for inner city service. Seems like a waste of valuable tax dollars that could otherwise be used for many other transit priorities screaming for money in Toronto.

This Apr. 17 article from the Globe once again highlights just how bad this line is performing even at lower fares, requiring indefinite taxpayer subsidies : http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...n-at-lower-fare-report-finds/article29657207/

The lesson is if the private sector thinks it is a dud, the government shouldn't think they can make a better analysis.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

hkskyline said:


> Are you saying a premium dedicated airport link takes priority over commuter transit for average people getting to/from work? I don't think the taxpayers would like that prioritization. The passenger numbers also don't support such a prioritization.


No, like I mentioned before, this would not have been my first choice in terms of transportation spending priorities. But at this point, the discussion isn't about whether we should build this line instead of some other project; it's about how to move forward now that this line has already been built. I agree that if we could go back in time and make this project a lower priority than some of the other transit projects, then that would be preferable. What I don't agree with is saying we should spend extra money on this project to use it in a way that it isn't well suited for when we could put the extra spending to better use elsewhere.



hkskyline said:


> You don't build transit just to address the peaks. The overall patronage figures are pitiful, which is interesting because air traffic tends to space out throughout the day rather than have marked peaks like regular commuter rush hours.


The big problem with this statement is that if you want a service to serve commuters and have high total passenger volumes, you DO need to focus on peak period service. There are several GO train lines that only have trains in the peak period in peak direction, and simply use buses for off-peak service since the passenger volumes are so low off-peak. The Milton line for example has ridership of some 30,000 per weekday, yet has a total of only 9 trips going into town in the morning and 9 trip going back out in the afternoon and evening. But it manages to have high ridership compared to the UPX since it has such large trains. 

If you want to put a focus on attracting commuters, this is what your service will look like. Much larger and/or more frequent trains than UPX during peak periods, and under used trains outside peak if they remain as frequent..

And that's the very reason I said we should be focusing on attracting more airport users rather than commuters. In one of the articles you posted, they said that 17% of UPX riders are commuters. This may not be much of the total, but since commuters are very peak period focused most of them would be using it during a couple hours at peak period, so those full peak hour trains would likely have been predominantly commuters. So adding more commuters is just going to make those trains uncomfortably crowded and leave the rest nearly as empty.



hkskyline said:


> I don't understand why they need to build a lot of new infrastructure to add by-pass tracks and maybe even add extra tracks for inner city service when there is already infrastructure built on an under-used airport line that could adapt itself to cater for inner city service. Seems like a waste of valuable tax dollars that could otherwise be used for many other transit priorities screaming for money in Toronto.



The problem is that it CAN'T adapt itself to commuter service without significant new money being spent. That's the whole point of our disagreement. If the UPX could fulfil a different role serving as a commuter service without significant money being spent on upgrades, then I'd be all for it. But it would definitely require more money since it is already near capacity during peak periods, and would need significant expansion in either train lengths or service frequency. And since it would need more money, the question is how to spend that money the most effectively and you'd get more bang for your buck by using the money to upgrade one of the services that was actually designed for commuter use.



hkskyline said:


> This Apr. 17 article from the Globe once again highlights just how bad this line is performing even at lower fares, requiring indefinite taxpayer subsidies : http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...n-at-lower-fare-report-finds/article29657207/
> 
> The lesson is if the private sector thinks it is a dud, the government shouldn't think they can make a better analysis.



And that article is very interesting, especially the quote, "Boosters once said that the troubled airport-to-downtown train would recoup both its capital and operating expenses. But the struggling project, which was given to transit agency Metrolinx under the expectation that it would at least break even on day-to-day costs, now appears destined to require ongoing taxpayer funding." 

If the lesson is that the success of public transit services should be judged based on private sector expectations of recouping operating expenses and capital investments, there are very few that wouldn't qualify as "duds" including a GO branded version of the line adapted to commuter service, if we're going to take other GO services as any indication.


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> No, like I mentioned before, this would not have been my first choice in terms of transportation spending priorities. But at this point, the discussion isn't about whether we should build this line instead of some other project; it's about how to move forward now that this line has already been built. I agree that if we could go back in time and make this project a lower priority than some of the other transit projects, then that would be preferable. What I don't agree with is saying we should spend extra money on this project to use it in a way that it isn't well suited for when we could put the extra spending to better use elsewhere.
> 
> The big problem with this statement is that if you want a service to serve commuters and have high total passenger volumes, you DO need to focus on peak period service. There are several GO train lines that only have trains in the peak period in peak direction, and simply use buses for off-peak service since the passenger volumes are so low off-peak. The Milton line for example has ridership of some 30,000 per weekday, yet has a total of only 9 trips going into town in the morning and 9 trip going back out in the afternoon and evening. But it manages to have high ridership compared to the UPX since it has such large trains.


UPX's 4 trains an hour cannot even generate a fraction of GO's 9 roundtrips a day on the Milton Line. The cause is not because of train size. It it because UPX is not being used while GO is. 

I don't agree letting a broken line rot rather than improving it is the right solution. The problem is they are spending money to enhance the parallel tracks used by GO when this existing infrastructure that was ill-conceived but built already could be better utilized. While GO trains probably can't run on UPX tracks for technical reasons, if the objective is to enhance inner city service, then UPX can take that role. Once UPX trains fill up with the existing service, then they can think of how to increase capacity, such as adding frequencies or adapting for longer trains. They have a long way to go before this happens.



Nouvellecosse said:


> If you want to put a focus on attracting commuters, this is what your service will look like. Much larger and/or more frequent trains than UPX during peak periods, and under used trains outside peak if they remain as frequent.


The irony is you keep saying the trains are full during peak periods but the overall patronage figures don't show this. The latest figures show 17% commuter use on average daily patronage of 5000 passengers. That is 850 people. For a 2-hour rush hour period in each direction, 4 trains an hour can handle 173*4*4 = 2768 passengers. Seems there is plenty of room, and flights don't have as marked a peak period as commuter traffic.

Commuters may not necessarily be downtown-bound. It could also be commuters heading to the airport to work. Airport workers are mostly shift-based, hence don't have the same movement patterns as downtown-bound work. So your concept of peak period use may not apply. The airport has a huge workforce, so it won't be surprising they take the train to work, although at the old prices, it would be cheaper to drive.

You don't need to upgrade the infrastructure to handle a reasonable commuter service. Just up the frequencies to every 5 minutes to see how that goes first. Once those trains fill up, remove seats in parts of the train for standing-only. Add a baggage car in the reverse direction which doesn't need platform access at the intermediate stations. There are plenty of ways to increase capacity with minimal capex. Whether the authorities have the competence to think of a solution and to execute it is another problem.



Nouvellecosse said:


> And that's the very reason I said we should be focusing on attracting more airport users rather than commuters. In one of the articles you posted, they said that 17% of UPX riders are commuters. This may not be much of the total, but since commuters are very peak period focused most of them would be using it during a couple hours at peak period, so those full peak hour trains would likely have been predominantly commuters. So adding more commuters is just going to make those trains uncomfortably crowded and leave the rest nearly as empty.
> The problem is that it CAN'T adapt itself to commuter service without significant new money being spent. That's the whole point of our disagreement. If the UPX could fulfil a different role serving as a commuter service without significant money being spent on upgrades, then I'd be all for it. But it would definitely require more money since it is already near capacity during peak periods, and would need significant expansion in either train lengths or service frequency. And since it would need more money, the question is how to spend that money the most effectively and you'd get more bang for your buck by using the money to upgrade one of the services that was actually designed for commuter use.
> 
> And that article is very interesting, especially the quote, "Boosters once said that the troubled airport-to-downtown train would recoup both its capital and operating expenses. But the struggling project, which was given to transit agency Metrolinx under the expectation that it would at least break even on day-to-day costs, now appears destined to require ongoing taxpayer funding."
> 
> If the lesson is that the success of public transit services should be judged based on private sector expectations of recouping operating expenses and capital investments, there are very few that wouldn't qualify as "duds" including a GO branded version of the line adapted to commuter service, if we're going to take other GO services as any indication.


If there are sufficient airport users then we don't need to be discussing how to rescue this ailing service. Simply put, a bleeding line that needs taxpayer support is not successful. The TTC keeps boasting about its farebox revenue sources for funding. In our capitalist world, it is about profit. Everyone is concerned about balancing the books - from all levels of government to the individual household. Whether it is correct for others to subsidize an unprofitable line for the sake of a community's transport needs is an urban planning question.


----------



## Woonsocket54

Update on Eglinton Crosstown LRT

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2016/05/tunnelling-complete-western-leg-crosstown-lrt


----------



## hkskyline

*Fare bargain triples ridership on UPX*
Airport train’s popularity surges since price was cut in half, but Metrolinx doubts it can break even. 
Toronto Star _Excerpt_
May 12, 2016

Two months after the Union Pearson Express slashed its fares, ridership on the troubled airport rail link has tripled, according to a spokeswoman for the provincial transit agency.

Metrolinx spokeswoman Anne Marie Aikins said Wednesday that as of the end of April, 6,500 people on average now use the service on weekdays. Including weekends, when ridership is lower, the daily average is about 6,000, she said. About 80 per cent of the riders are coming to or from Pearson International Airport, and the rest are commuters.

Before UPX lowered the cost of tickets in March, daily ridership hovered between 2,000 and 2,200 people. Immediately after the price change, that number increased to about 5,000 a day. Aikins said since then, ridership has grown at a rate of about six per cent a week.

“It’s very, very nice to see. I can tell you that,” Aikins said in an interview. “Staff worked very hard to get this service out on time and on budget, and they want to see it utilized.”

She added that there was “every indication” ridership will continue to grow. “We’re still a very young service, and we are still doing marketing to spread the word.”

The numbers Aikins provided were based on passenger head counts; she said they are reasonably accurate despite being less precise than the official figures reported every three months to the Metrolinx board.

But even as the UPX becomes more popular, Aikins conceded that it may not be possible for the service to break even. Metrolinx originally projected UPX revenue would cover the train’s costs within three to five years when ridership was to reach 7,000 a day, but the agency is now reviewing its cost-recovery strategy with the province, Aikins said.

“It was a goal set to say we didn’t want this service to cost the taxpayers any more money, to be self-sustaining through the fare box. And that was an admirable goal, but whether or not it’s . . . realistic now is difficult to say,” Aikins said.

A study commissioned by Metrolinx in 2012, but not made fully public until last month, suggests that at current fare levels, revenues could fall more than $20 million short of covering operating costs each year.

The rest : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/05/12/fare-bargain-triples-ridership-on-upx.html


----------



## ainvan

*Relief Line: Preferred Alignment Now Includes Unilever Stop *



> Today, the Province also pledged $150 million towards the Relief Line's planning, following the federal government's $840 million state-of-good-repair pledge to Toronto transit last month. Though the Relief Line planning process is still in its early stages, the latest plan is an important step forward in setting out a more finalized corridor and precise station locations. Notably, the new plan also presents meaningful revisions to the preferred corridor identified earlier this year.
> 
> In March, a preferred alignment connecting Downtown to Pape Station via Queen Street was announced. The City's initial preferred corridor terminated at 'City Hall' station on Queen, bypassing the Unilever site. However, the proposed station at Nathan Phillips Square would not provide direct transfers to either side of Line 1 at Queen or Osgoode stations, requiring transit users to walk long hallways in order to change trains. Meanwhile, although the Unilever station would boost ridership and be a major socio-economic boost to the formerly industrial area, the added cost was cited as a prohibitive factor. The new plan presents a different approach to both issues.
> 
> Although the general Queen-Pape alignment is maintained, the "emerging" preferred corridor jettisons the City Hall station in favour of direct connections to Line 1 at Queen and Osgoode. In lieu of the placemaking benefits of a station at—referred to as "the psychological heart of Toronto" by City Planning—direct transit connections are now preferred. Likewise, the plan now includes a station at the Unilever site, facilitating a more complete multi-modal hub, and helping advance one of the country's largest developments.


The new corridor









A conceptual rendering of the new transit hub at the Unilever site









UT


----------



## isaidso

I still think we need a Queen Line running from the Beaches all the way down the Queensway. In addition, we should build a Downtown Relief Line that loops down a few blocks south of Queen to hit the Distillery, Esplanade, St. Lawrence market, convention centre, CN Tower, Skydome, City Place, the CNE, BMO Field, Liberty Village, then looping up Roncesvalles. 

If we build the DRL on the route proposed above we'll never get a subway to the above places, nor will we get a subway to the Beaches or down the Queensway. That's a big mistake imo. They're all major attractions (with the exception of the Queensway) and will only become more important moving forward. The Queensway is a major artery that connects Etobicoke to downtown. Surely it needs service... especially with what's happening down at Humber Bay.


----------



## isaidso

I do like that giant rail station at the Unilever site though. It's too large for our present day needs but shows a lot of foresight. Planning, like the word implies, should plan for the future... and the future Toronto will need other big rail stations besides Union.


----------



## ainvan

*Google Maps launches real-time transit updates for the TTC*



> Google Map’s real-time transit info feature has just launched for the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) on both Android and iOS, giving Torontonians more accurate and timely information about public transit.
> 
> With the update, Google Maps can now instruct users on what the best route is according to transit conditions and inform them when their subway, bus or streetcar will arrive (not just when it’s supposed to arrive). Maps will also continually update estimated arrival times throughout a trip and alert users to service disruptions, detours and stops that are under construction.
> 
> This update is a welcome addition to Maps, especially for daily commuters in Canada’s largest city. Google notes in its press release that transit is one of the most googled issues in the city, and says that the top question on the subject for the last six months is: “How to plan a TTC trip?” while other popular searches are, “When is the next TTC bus?” and “Where is my streetcar?”


Mobile Syrup


----------



## dimlys1994

Track installation is now complete on the Toronto-York Spadina Subway Extension:


----------



## dimlys1994

Video on proposed Hamilton LRT network called BLAST (every letter of this abbreviation is name of each LRT line):


----------



## Balkanada

Anyone have an idea of what the symbol for the LRT will look like on all TTC signage once it's up and running?


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...town-lrt-tunnelling-completed-in-toronto.html
> 
> *Eglinton Crosstown LRT tunnelling completed in Toronto*
> 18 Aug 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CANADA: Tunnel boring for Toronto’s Eglinton Crosstown Light Rail Transit project was completed on August 17 when TBMs Don and Humber broke through at Yonge Street after a 3·3 km journey from a site just east of Brentcliffe Road.
> 
> Each of the two TBMs boring the eastern tunnel section installed 26 178 precast concrete tunnel segments, which formed 4 363 rings. They started tunnelling in September 2015
> 
> ...


----------



## Nouvellecosse

hkskyline said:


> UPX's 4 trains an hour cannot even generate a fraction of GO's 9 roundtrips a day on the Milton Line. The cause is not because of train size. It it because UPX is not being used while GO is. .


No, it's because UPX is used for a totally different purpose than GO lines are.



hkskyline said:


> I don't agree letting a broken line rot rather than improving it is the right solution. The problem is they are spending money to enhance the parallel tracks used by GO when this existing infrastructure that was ill-conceived but built already could be better utilized. While GO trains probably can't run on UPX tracks for technical reasons, if the objective is to enhance inner city service, then UPX can take that role. Once UPX trains fill up with the existing service, then they can think of how to increase capacity, such as adding frequencies or adapting for longer trains. They have a long way to go before this happens..


Just because a line is used for a different purpose with different ridership stats doesn't make it broken. It makes it different.

The problem that no matter how much anyone tries to explain, you can't seem to understand, is that regardless of how much we want inner city service, UPX _can't_ fulfil that role in an any way effective or functional manner. That's the problem. If it could do this effectively, we wouldn't have such a major disagreement.



hkskyline said:


> The irony is you keep saying the trains are full during peak periods but the overall patronage figures don't show this. The latest figures show 17% commuter use on average daily patronage of 5000 passengers. That is 850 people. For a 2-hour rush hour period in each direction, 4 trains an hour can handle 173*4*4 = 2768 passengers. Seems there is plenty of room, and flights don't have as marked a peak period as commuter traffic..


Where are you getting the idea that the trains are full during peak periods due to commuter traffic? Trains being full during peak periods is a fact, as reported by the transit agency itself, so that is not debatable. And the stats that you've mentioned would clearly indicate that the majority of riders even during peak periods are not, in fact, commuters. Flights may not have as marked of a peak period, but obviously it's marked enough to make the difference. 



hkskyline said:


> Commuters may not necessarily be downtown-bound. It could also be commuters heading to the airport to work. Airport workers are mostly shift-based, hence don't have the same movement patterns as downtown-bound work. So your concept of peak period use may not apply. The airport has a huge workforce, so it won't be surprising they take the train to work, although at the old prices, it would be cheaper to drive..


One of the biggest reasons people choose to live downtown despite the higher costs, is to be closer to work and cut down on the time and money spent on a long commute. I'm sure you could probably find someone doing it, but I doubt it would be significant numbers.

But even if you were right and these people were to provide more off-peak patronage, it still wouldn't do anything to address the crowding in the peak direction.



hkskyline said:


> You don't need to upgrade the infrastructure to handle a reasonable commuter service. Just up the frequencies to every 5 minutes to see how that goes first. Once those trains fill up, remove seats in parts of the train for standing-only. Add a baggage car in the reverse direction which doesn't need platform access at the intermediate stations. There are plenty of ways to increase capacity with minimal capex. Whether the authorities have the competence to think of a solution and to execute it is another problem..


This whole premise that you wouldn't need to upgrade the infrastructure to handle 5 minute frequencies is false. That would require a significant infrastructure upgrade, so I'll have to stop you right there. If you're interested in the details as to why, Steve Munro goes into great detail into the capacity restraints on his blog which I linked to a few pages ago.




hkskyline said:


> If there are sufficient airport users then we don't need to be discussing how to rescue this ailing service. Simply put, a bleeding line that needs taxpayer support is not successful. The TTC keeps boasting about its farebox revenue sources for funding. In our capitalist world, it is about profit. Everyone is concerned about balancing the books - from all levels of government to the individual household. Whether it is correct for others to subsidize an unprofitable line for the sake of a community's transport needs is an urban planning question.


So then none of the GO train commuter lines are successful. And that's despite them having far lower prices than UPX.

Fortunately the pricing changes that have already been made seem to have done the job of improving the ridership numbers (tripled) without needing the changes that you're advocating.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/05/12/fare-bargain-triples-ridership-on-upx.html

And according to the article, 80% of the riders are still airport users rather than commuters. So attempting to attract commuters has been proven unnecessary. I didn't bother explaining all of this before and figured it would be best to just wait and see, and show you once the numbers were in. I knew otherwise you'd never believe it.


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> No, it's because UPX is used for a totally different purpose than GO lines are.
> 
> 
> 
> Just because a line is used for a different purpose with different ridership stats doesn't make it broken. It makes it different.
> 
> The problem that no matter how much anyone tries to explain, you can't seem to understand, is that regardless of how much we want inner city service, UPX _can't_ fulfil that role in an any way effective or functional manner. That's the problem. If it could do this effectively, we wouldn't have such a major disagreement.
> 
> 
> 
> Where are you getting the idea that the trains are full during peak periods due to commuter traffic? Trains being full during peak periods is a fact, as reported by the transit agency itself, so that is not debatable. And the stats that you've mentioned would clearly indicate that the majority of riders even during peak periods are not, in fact, commuters. Flights may not have as marked of a peak period, but obviously it's marked enough to make the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> One of the biggest reasons people choose to live downtown despite the higher costs, is to be closer to work and cut down on the time and money spent on a long commute. I'm sure you could probably find someone doing it, but I doubt it would be significant numbers.
> 
> But even if you were right and these people were to provide more off-peak patronage, it still wouldn't do anything to address the crowding in the peak direction.
> 
> 
> 
> This whole premise that you wouldn't need to upgrade the infrastructure to handle 5 minute frequencies is false. That would require a significant infrastructure upgrade, so I'll have to stop you right there. If you're interested in the details as to why, Steve Munro goes into great detail into the capacity restraints on his blog which I linked to a few pages ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So then none of the GO train commuter lines are successful. And that's despite them having far lower prices than UPX.
> 
> Fortunately the pricing changes that have already been made seem to have done the job of improving the ridership numbers (tripled) without needing the changes that you're advocating.
> 
> https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/05/12/fare-bargain-triples-ridership-on-upx.html
> 
> And according to the article, 80% of the riders are still airport users rather than commuters. So attempting to attract commuters has been proven unnecessary. I didn't bother explaining all of this before and figured it would be best to just wait and see, and show you once the numbers were in. I knew otherwise you'd never believe it.


If a line is not working, like UPX, you need to *change* it. That's something you don't seem to be able to grasp. Clearly, the status quo is not the solution. It is broken because it is bleeding. Being different is irrelevant. Of course the UPX can fulfill the role as a suburban service. It means changes need to happen.

It shouldn't be surprising that an infrastructure upgrade will cost money, but that will also mean more revenues to help lessen the bleeding. The infrastructure upgrade to enhance frequencies is relatively minor compared to building new tracks, installing a new signaling system, or some of what they are trying to do with the parallel GO line.

What significant upgrade do you envision should not happen but instead let the UPX continue to operate in an unusustainable and tax-draining way now?

The key point is this line is bleeding tax dollars. Whether it is 80% airport traffic or 80% commuter traffic is irrelevant as long as it can at least breakeven and not rely on government hand-outs. As of now, traffic needs to go up, and commuter traffic is easier to capture than trying to boost airport patronage to indirectly boost airport users. Airport workers living along the line, and not necessarily in the expensive downtown area, can most definitely help out at the right price. They would complement the other type of downtown-bound commuter traffic and keep loads healthy in both directions.

You need to stop believing the UPX needs to be different from GO. That premise, as we have seen by the financials and patronage stats, has failed. At least by bringing it to GO's operating standard, it won't be bleeding over 52 bucks a ride, maybe a bit less, which would still be a marked improvement. To put things into perspective 52 is a lot bigger than the less than 1 buck per ride subsidy needed by the TTC.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Urban Toronto:


----------



## dimlys1994




----------



## geogregor

dimlys1994 said:


>


What so special about this building that it had to be moved? Normally such obstructions are simply demolished.

Is it historically significant? Do they want to use it for something?


----------



## dimlys1994




----------



## jay stew

geogregor said:


> What so special about this building that it had to be moved? Normally such obstructions are simply demolished.
> 
> Is it historically significant? Do they want to use it for something?


It was part of a large Kodak campus, which shut down in 2006. Building 9 is the last one standing.

The building will be part the new Mount Dennis station when Line 5 opens.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...t-rail-request-for-qualifications-issued.html
> 
> *Hurontario light rail request for qualifications issued*
> 19 Oct 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CANADA: Infrastructure Ontario and Greater Toronto transport agency Metrolinx have issued a request for qualifications seeking parties interested in a contract to design, build, finance, operate and maintain the planned Hurontario Light Rail Transit project.
> 
> The 20 km line to the west of Toronto would run from Port Credit GO station in Mississauga to the Gateway Terminal at Steeles Avenue in Brampton. The 22 stops would include connections to GO Transit’s Milton and Lakeshore West commuter rail routes and local bus services
> 
> ...


----------



## Woonsocket54

^^ a map of the proposed Hurontario LRT










http://www.progressiverailroading.c...to-build-Hurontario-light-rail-project--49805


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## Urbanista1

that's great news. I hope it will be in its own R.O.W.


----------



## dimlys1994




----------



## skyfann

Hello,

The project is a good idea.


----------



## FloatingSzczecin

*Metrolinx Boring machine move for Eglinton LRT - Mammoet*



> *Metrolinx Boring machine move for Eglinton LRT*​


----------



## hkskyline

*Report outlines steep costs of running new Toronto transit lines*
A new report explains the outcomes of negotiations between the province and City of Toronto on a number of transit projects.
Toronto Star _Excerpt_
Oct. 31, 2016

The City of Toronto is on the hook for tens of millions of dollars in transit costs that many believed the province would pay for.

According to a city report released on Monday, Toronto will be responsible for funding the operation and day-to-day maintenance of new LRT lines that the province is paying to build.

The report outlines the outcomes of negotiations between the province and city on a number of transit projects, including the Eglinton Crosstown, Finch West, and Sheppard East LRT lines, as well as Mayor John Tory’s SmartTrack plan. It was originally supposed to go before Tory’s executive committee last week but wasn’t completed in time. The terms of the agreement have still to be approved by council.

The report estimates that the gross operating and maintenance costs for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT will be $80 million a year when it opens in 2021. The cost will be offset by increased fare revenue and savings the TTC will reap by not running bus service on Eglinton, bringing the net cost to the city down to $39 million a year.

Estimates for the gross operating costs of the other provincially funded LRT lines are: $51.5 million in 2022 dollars for the Finch West LRT, and $38.1 million in 2025 for the Sheppard East LRT.

It’s not clear how the city will raise the funds to operate and maintain these lines. 

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...sts-of-running-new-toronto-transit-lines.html


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## Innsertnamehere

The city has the more immediate issue of funding for the Spadina subway extension.. It opens next year, the city needs to figure out how to fund the $15 million annual subsidy needed for it. Eglinton is still 5 years off.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

some spadina subway photo updates:

Vaughan Metropolitian Centre Station










reaperexpress at UT

Highway 407 Station



















Pioneer Village Station:



















York University Station:










JoeParez at UT



















Finch West Station:



















Downsview Park Station:










The Downsview Park contract looks substantially complete, the first portion of the project to finish. Apparently test trains will begin running in April. Project opening is scheduled for end of year, 2017 (December 31).


----------



## Urbanista1

wow, we're finally getting some world class looking subway stations. :cheers:


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...nate-bombardier-lrv-contract.html?channel=535
> 
> *Metrolinx moves to terminate Bombardier LRV contract*
> Friday, November 04, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _TORONTO and Hamilton transit authority Metrolinx confirmed on November 3 that it has filed a notice of intent to terminate a contract worth up to $C 770m ($US 574.2m) for up to 182 Flexity Freedom LRVs_
> 
> Metrolinx awarded Bombardier the contract to supply LRVs for new light rail lines in the Toronto region in June 2010, with delivery scheduled to take place between 2013 and 2020. However, the order has suffered repeated delays and despite the revision of the delivery timetable, remains behind schedule
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Transitdrum118, a look inside of new ION LRT Maintenance Yard And Complex:


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## swimmer_spe

Urbanista1 said:


> wow, we're finally getting some world class looking subway stations. :cheers:


Why not use the space above the station for a building that can be more useful for urban development?

I like how south of Bloor, you do not have any stations above the ground. The stations tie into existing buildings and make it more pedestrian friendly.

Just think of the money that could be made by renting or selling the air rights to those stations.


----------



## isaidso

swimmer_spe said:


> Why not use the space above the station for a building that can be more useful for urban development?
> 
> I like how south of Bloor, you do not have any stations above the ground. The stations tie into existing buildings and make it more pedestrian friendly.
> 
> Just think of the money that could be made by renting or selling the air rights to those stations.


Normally I'd agree with that but these stations are so far north that we'd have to see decades of growth before these areas will get stitched into the urban fabric. It's suburbia in every sense of the word. 

I suppose there's an argument that one has to start urbanizing the suburbs even if that sort of density looks out of place today. That said, I'm pleased that these peripheral areas are getting connected to the rail network and impressed with the beautiful stations. Normally (especially on the outskirts) Toronto just builds something functional with little attention to visual appeal.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

They are doing it on Eglinton for a few of the new underground LRT stops.

KPMG building has a direct connection to the vaughan subway station too, so employees can get to the subway without walking outside.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

A photo of the first LRV leaving the Thunder Bay factory for testing in Kingston. Exciting to see what will be running on Eglinton in a few short years!










http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/metrolinx-flexity-freedom-lrvs-bombardier.18819/page-45


----------



## swimmer_spe

isaidso said:


> Normally I'd agree with that but these stations are so far north that we'd have to see decades of growth before these areas will get stitched into the urban fabric. It's suburbia in every sense of the word.
> 
> I suppose there's an argument that one has to start urbanizing the suburbs even if that sort of density looks out of place today. That said, I'm pleased that these peripheral areas are getting connected to the rail network and impressed with the beautiful stations. Normally (especially on the outskirts) Toronto just builds something functional with little attention to visual appeal.


If you build it, they will come.

I am trying to think of a subway station that has not seen major growth since first opened.


----------



## saiho

swimmer_spe said:


> If you build it, they will come.
> 
> I am trying to think of a subway station that has not seen major growth since first opened.


Um. Most of the stations along the Bloor-Danforth Line have not seen major growth. All stations apart from Scarborough Town Center (where growth was going to happen SRT or not as it was government backed) on the SRT have not seen major growth. Only the Yonge University Line fits the bill with most stations attracting major growth. However even on that line you have the York Mills, Wilson, Lawrence West, Dupont, Downsview, etc who have not seen much growth and increase in density. I'm all for transit expansion but poor capital expansion prioritization does not give you an excuse to hedge bets on urban development which may or may not materialize.


----------



## Ontario1

A photo of the first LRV leaving the Thunder Bay factory for testing in Kingston. Exciting to see what will be running on Eglinton in a few short years!


Isn't Metrolinx cancelling the contract for these? Maybe these will end up in Kitchener-Waterloo instead.


----------



## hkskyline

*14 years ago the subway line to nowhere opened*
On Nov. 22, 2002, Sheppard subway line was born, the first new Toronto subway line in almost 40 years.
Toronto Star _Excerpt_
Nov. 22, 2016


Sheppard Subway Train by Wiley Wolf, on Flickr

On Nov. 22, 2002 at 11:00 a.m. a train carrying Ontario Premier Ernie Eves, Toronto Mayor Mel Lastman, Transport Canada Minister David Collenette and TTC Chair Betty Disero broke through a banner across the track at Don Mills station, officially opening the Sheppard subway line.

Following the inaugural ride, there was a public open house, and the public was able to ride the new Line 4 free of charge while enjoying entertainment provided by bands and performing arts students. There were also gifts handed out, including complimentary tote bags.

Toronto’s first new subway line since 1966, the Sheppard line cost around $1 billion to construct and took 7 and a half years to build. 

It was Toronto’s first fully accessible subway line with elevators at every station and was the first subway in Canada constructed entirely by tunnel boring machines. While it was criticized as ‘the line that goes nowhere,’ it also ushered in new thinking about infrastructure incorporating public art.

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/11/22/14-years-ago-the-subway-line-to-nowhere-opened.html


----------



## swimmer_spe

hkskyline said:


> *14 years ago the subway line to nowhere opened*
> On Nov. 22, 2002, Sheppard subway line was born, the first new Toronto subway line in almost 40 years.
> Toronto Star _Excerpt_
> Nov. 22, 2016
> 
> 
> Sheppard Subway Train by Wiley Wolf, on Flickr
> 
> On Nov. 22, 2002 at 11:00 a.m. a train carrying Ontario Premier Ernie Eves, Toronto Mayor Mel Lastman, Transport Canada Minister David Collenette and TTC Chair Betty Disero broke through a banner across the track at Don Mills station, officially opening the Sheppard subway line.
> 
> Following the inaugural ride, there was a public open house, and the public was able to ride the new Line 4 free of charge while enjoying entertainment provided by bands and performing arts students. There were also gifts handed out, including complimentary tote bags.
> 
> Toronto’s first new subway line since 1966, the Sheppard line cost around $1 billion to construct and took 7 and a half years to build.
> 
> It was Toronto’s first fully accessible subway line with elevators at every station and was the first subway in Canada constructed entirely by tunnel boring machines. While it was criticized as ‘the line that goes nowhere,’ it also ushered in new thinking about infrastructure incorporating public art.
> 
> More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/11/22/14-years-ago-the-subway-line-to-nowhere-opened.html


So, why was it built in the first place?


----------



## saiho

swimmer_spe said:


> So, why was it built in the first place?


because people thought this:



swimmer_spe said:


> If you build it, they will come.
> 
> I am trying to think of a subway station that has not seen major growth since first opened.


----------



## ainvan

*TTC map in 2021*









Blog TO


----------



## hkskyline

swimmer_spe said:


> So, why was it built in the first place?


They intended to build a full line all the way to Scarborough, which would have made sense. But they didn't have enough $.


----------



## isaidso

swimmer_spe said:


> So, why was it built in the first place?


The mayor at the time (Mel Lastman) was a little shady. There are whispers that he was paying off business friends who stood to benefit financially from a subway running along Sheppard. None of it has been proven but at least I can get to IKEA by subway now.


----------



## isaidso

ainvan said:


> *TTC map in 2021*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blog TO


When the Scarborough RT is re-worked as a subway will it just be part of Line 2? An extension of Line 5 to Pearson would make a lot of sense.


----------



## ainvan

isaidso said:


> When the Scarborough RT is re-worked as a subway will it just be part of Line 2? An extension of Line 5 to Pearson would make a lot of sense.


Yes, eventually it would be like this, hopefully before 2028 Olympics


----------



## Balkanada

isaidso said:


> When the Scarborough RT is re-worked as a subway will it just be part of Line 2?


I guess that would depend on whether or not there would be a short turn on Kennedy. I think it would make more sense anyway


----------



## ssiguy2

Please not that the new Orange line is NOT a Metro. It is an LRT and although 10km of the busiest central section will be underground, the rest I at-grade going down the middle of a busy street in ROW. 

None of the Finch or Sheppard line is Metro either but just street running LRT in ROW. It just makes the map look better but even with the soon to be open Spadina subway extension, Toronto's subway system has grown by only 14 km in 30 years. 

The real action in Toronto transit is the massive GO rail commuter system that will be turned into a RER in it's inner areas and will be electrified and totally grade separated.


----------



## swimmer_spe

ainvan said:


> Yes, eventually it would be like this, hopefully before 2028 Olympics





ssiguy2 said:


> Please not that the new Orange line is NOT a Metro. It is an LRT and although 10km of the busiest central section will be underground, the rest I at-grade going down the middle of a busy street in ROW.
> 
> None of the Finch or Sheppard line is Metro either but just street running LRT in ROW. It just makes the map look better but even with the soon to be open Spadina subway extension, Toronto's subway system has grown by only 14 km in 30 years.
> 
> The real action in Toronto transit is the massive GO rail commuter system that will be turned into a RER in it's inner areas and will be electrified and totally grade separated.


So, should the Streetcar lines that are built the same way as the Crosstown and future LRT lines be all on this map? It would really boost the (L)RT the city has already.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Personally I would put them on the map but not with the same prominence as subway except for the underground portion of Eglinton. I think they should handle the surface lines like Paris does with its trams, by including them but with a finer line style compared to heavy lines for metro and rer.


----------



## saiho

^^ I agree, the surface running sections of the LRT network should get a thinner line but I think transit technology politics are at play here. If the TTC did show the non grade separated sections differently then the subways, subways, subways crowd will start crying foul over them being relegated to "second class" citizens getting lesser transit.


----------



## swimmer_spe

Nouvellecosse said:


> Personally I would put them on the map but but with the same prominence as subway except for the underground portion of Eglinton. I think they should handle the surface lines like Paris does with its trams, by including them but with a finer line style compared to heavy lines for metro and rer.





saiho said:


> ^^ I agree, the surface running sections of the LRT network should get a thinner line but I think transit technology politics are at play here. If the TTC did show the non grade separated sections differently then the subways, subways, subways crowd will start crying foul over them being relegated to "second class" citizens getting lesser transit.


Only have the lines that are in their own ROW. Have the LRT/Streetcar lines thinner and the Subways thicker. It would really showcase the transit Toronto really has.


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## Innsertnamehere

ssiguy2 said:


> The real action in Toronto transit is the massive GO rail commuter system that will be turned into a RER in it's inner areas and will be electrified and totally grade separated.


GO RER is going to be far from grade separated, They have something like 170 at grade crossings on the GO network today and only something like 10 of them are being separated as a part of the program.


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## ssiguy2

Most of the GO commuter lines have few grade separations but as I understand it the entire RER system itself will be.


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## Woonsocket54

The track map was recently posted to the "Transit Toronto" weblog

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/weblog/2016/11/13-new_transi.shtml


----------



## swimmer_spe

Woonsocket54 said:


> The track map was recently posted to the "Transit Toronto" weblog
> 
> http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/weblog/2016/11/13-new_transi.shtml


What software is used to make these types of maps?


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## isaidso

The TTC seems to like cream coloured walls. It always reminds me of a ceiling that's been stained from decades of cigarette smoking. Not a good choice imo.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Metro Report

http://www.metro-report.com/news/ne...iew/toronto-pearson-transit-hub-proposed.html

*Toronto Pearson transit hub proposed*
08 Feb 2017










CANADA: Greater Toronto Airports Authority has announced plans for a regional transit centre to be developed at Toronto Pearson International Airport.

GTAA says that more than 300 000 people work in the area around the airport, making it the second-largest employment zone in Canada. However, poor public transport options mean that around 90% of people travelling to or from the area use private cars or taxis

...


----------



## hkskyline

*Bombardier taking Metrolinx to court*
Toronto Star _Excerpt_
Feb. 10, 2017

Bombardier is taking Metrolinx to court over the transit agency’s “threat” to cancel a $770-million contract for light rail vehicles.

According to a statement from Bombardier, the Quebec-based company filed an injunction against Metrolinx with the Ontario Superior Court on Friday.

The statement cited Metrolinx’s “unjustified threats to terminate our contract.”

“Bombardier has taken this action to protect our employees, protect our legal rights and to allow for the on-time delivery of light rail vehicles to the people of Toronto,” it said.

Metrolinx responded in a statement of its own, in which the provincially-owned transit agency said it was “disappointed” Bombardier had taken legal action.

“We have been frank in sharing our reservations about their ability to deliver vehicles on time and to a level of quality we expect,” the statement said.

“Bombardier’s focus should be on getting the all the vehicles delivered on schedule and with the quality expected, not on legal proceedings of this nature.”

Bombardier’s legal gambit comes three months after Metrolinx issued the company a notice of intention to cancel its contract for up to 182 light rail vehicles.

The two parties reached a deal in 2010 for Metrolinx to purchase the cars, which were to run on the Eglinton Crosstown, Finch West and other Toronto-area light rail lines.

But the order has been plagued by delays.

Bombardier has not yet delivered a pilot vehicle Metrolinx says was scheduled to arrive almost two years ago, and the transit agency has publicly expressed concerns about allowing any problems with the order to affect the opening of the Crosstown, which is scheduled for 2021.

In its statement, Bombardier blamed Metrolinx for the setbacks, asserting that the agency has changed the scope and technical specifications of the project “countless times.”

The company claimed the pilot vehicle was finished, but Metrolinx has refused to take delivery.

“The simple truth is (Bombardier is) fully capable of delivering its trains on time,” the statement said. 

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/02/10/bombardier-taking-metrolinx-to-court.html


----------



## Arizoner

Seems good. Hope American cities could build more rail transit


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## Woonsocket54

"*Cost of Scarborough subway extension rises to $3.35B*"

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...arborough-subway-extension-rises-to-335b.html


----------



## Balkanada




----------



## hkskyline

*Scarborough subway moves forward as Tory rejects value-for-money analysis*
Subway advocates say the time for study is done, even as city staff confirm they have never compared the one-stop subway extension with a competing plan for light-rail transit.
Toronto Star _Excerpt_
March 28, 2017

Mayor John Tory and his allies have rejected a request for a value-for-money comparison between the proposed one-stop subway extension and a light-rail alternative before voting to move forward with the $3.35 billion subway plan.

“We’ve got to get on with this,” Tory told reporters after the vote Tuesday night, following arguments he made at council that no one would doubt it was a wise investment decades from now. “I think there’s been plenty of sources of information put in front of people.”

For hours earlier on the floor of the council chamber, city staff — including the head of the public service, city manager Peter Wallace — repeatedly explained they had been directed by council to bring forward a subway plan and that they had never been directed to do the comparison with an LRT, nor had it ever been provided.

Asked if it was possible to conclude the subway is better value for money, Wallace said, “We obviously would not know the answer to that in advance of doing the work.”

Councillor Josh Matlow made a motion to ask staff to provide that business case analysis. The motion failed 27 to 17 without Tory’s support.

Council voted 26 to 18 to advance the design work of a 6.2-kilometre subway tunnel aligned with McCowan Ave. to the Scarborough Town Centre. 

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...xt-steps-on-scarborough-subway-extension.html


----------



## towerpower123

They absolutely have to have at least one additional stop on that subway extension. That is why so many are advocating for Light Rail, to have more local stops. Does the plan at least consider the possibility of infill stops?


----------



## isaidso

towerpower123 said:


> Does the plan at least consider the possibility of infill stops?


I'd like to know too. This needs to get built so that extra stations can be added if needed.


----------



## saiho

isaidso said:


> I'd like to know too. This needs to get built so that extra stations can be added if needed.


Seems unlikely, the only other site for an intermediate station has been ruled out. 



> Council also voted against a motion to study "roughing in" a Lawrence Avenue East station on the subway line.


Source


----------



## isaidso

Good grief, why can't we build things right the first time. The whole reason we're in this multi-billion dollar re-do is because Toronto and Scarborough didn't have the sense to build a continuous line in the first place. In 10 years from now we'll start a new debate about how to add stations to this thing ...if that debate hasn't started already. 

Tax payers shouldn't have to do the same piece of infrastructure twice. This one will end up being done 3 times at the minimum. hno:


----------



## Urbanista1

still can't swallow the idea of a 7 km tunnel with a station at the end and not even a study on how to add stations down the line. But I like how they are determined to build this and other projects. I find our ways strange though: lines we have studied and refined ad nauseum never get built, haphazard poorly thought out projects move fast.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

a Lawrence station can be added later a la North York Centre. When the subway was first built in the 1970's it ran straight to Finch, but they later dug out the tunnel and built an additional station.

Also, the existing line to Scarborough centre has local stops, and they have essentially no ridership. Or at least very, very low. 90% of the ridership at minimum is going to Scarborough Centre.


----------



## Urbanista1

I think ridership is more a planning issue. Areas around stations probably need to be rezoned to add clusters of high density.


----------



## saiho

Innsertnamehere said:


> a Lawrence station can be added later a la North York Centre. When the subway was first built in the 1970's it ran straight to Finch, but they later dug out the tunnel and built an additional station.


North York Centre was only possible because the the alignment and design planned for the station to be built in the future. In addition to that section being shallow cut and cover which is not the case here. The Scarborough line will be deep bore and the nearby West Highland Creek is already making things complicated without a station. Sure a station can be shoehorned into any section of the line but it will not be as easy, cheap and simple as North York Center.


----------



## hkskyline

Sleeping cars by Bruce Reeve, on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

From Metro Report

http://www.metro-report.com/news/li...-backs-bombardier-in-ontario-lrv-dispute.html

*Court backs Bombardier in Ontario LRV dispute*
20 Apr 2017










CANADA: Ontario provincial transport authority Metrolinx cannot immediately cancel a contract with Bombardier Transportation for the supply of 182 light rail vehicles without compensating the manufacturer, a court ruled on April 19.

Metrolinx had launched legal proceedings against Bombardier over what it claimed were a series of delays to the production of the LRVs, which would be used on a series of new and expanded urban rail corridors around Toronto, including the Eglinton Crosstown line. Metrolinx and Bombardier signed the C$770m contract in 2010

...


----------



## 35thVidal

Bombardier said it was "very pleased" about the decision, per the article. :cripes:

I've only ever visited Toronto a few times and certainly heard enough stories on here about the city's history with transit blunders but the scale of this one is a bit impressive. 

Anyone with a legal background want to do an 'explain it like i'm five' on this? All I can think of is how many times both of them are late on the delivery of their projects, Bombardier especially. A public development agency is usually wrong about their completion dates from the outset. Something is delayed by funding sources, NIMBYS, or during construction. 

Whole story sounds like something out of the Seattle / Bertha project... though did they actually sue or threaten?


----------



## Jim856796

Earlier this month (on April 3), Toronto Mayor John Tory stated that the proposed Downtown Relief Line will not begin construction without any funding from the provincial government of Ontario, given the magnitude of the project.
http://www.680news.com/2017/04/03/tory-says-downtown-relief-line-wont-happen-without-provincial-money/

It was also reported (on April 12) that part of the new Relief line will now run under Carlaw Avenue. This is because the initial route under Pape Avenue has more single-family homes, and Carlaw Avenue is a minor arterial road with mid-rise residential and retail offices, and therefore it has twice as many residents as Pape Avenue.
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/04/12/downtown-relief-line-subway-will-now-run-under-carlaw-ave.html

I hope everything regarding the Relief Line (stations, alignment, etc.) will get finalized before any construction starts on it.


----------



## FloatingSzczecin

*TBM Toronto - Heavy Lift*



> *TBM Toronto - Heavy Lift.​*









> *The 400-tonne tunnel-boring machine that's dug more than three kilometres through the city for the Eglinton Crosstown project started to be pulled out of the ground Monday - 13.03.2017.*​















> *Eglinton Crosstown LRT tunnel boring machines heading from Eglinton Crosstown construction to the new Yonge and Eglinton LRT line.*​










> *The Eglinton Crosstown light rail transit (LRT) project marked another significant milestone. On March 13, 2017, Metrolinx began the process of extracting the tunnel boring machines (TBM) from the completed east tunnels near Yonge Street and Eglinton Avenue. TBM Don was the first to ascend, his cutter head taking the first step. Watch this great time-lapse video of cutter head’s journey to the surface.*​


----------



## dysharmonica

Abhishek901 said:


> The initial question was why do we have subway in suburbs instead of having more subway in downtown. You are indirectly agreeing to my view that we need subways in suburbs too.


Actually you are still wrong in your statement. Metropolitan areas everywhere in the world often have 2-3 rail systems in various degrees of serving suburbs, vs serving the city. Of them metro is the mot expensive and thus focused on heavily urbanized routes that will have the needed ridership to justify the cost of building a metro and is characteristics high frequency, all day, frequent, dense-stop service. Electrified commuter surface rail (maybe with a tunnel in the city center) serves a wider spread region with lower frequency and wider stop spacing. Finally, light rail and streetcars supplements these services in secondary routes in the city, connecting a ring around the city in the burbs (often connetitng multiple radial commuter rail lines) or providing transit density in the core for short-haul trips. 

NYC is a prime example (NYC Subway/PATH vs MetroNorth/LIRR/NJ Transit), as is Paris, Berlin, Stockholm, London ... and on and on and on. 

Here is one of my favorite maps of this (just because it's easy to see - unlike, say Berlin, where the sheer scale of the system obfuscates the relationship on a map): 
Copenhagen (blue = metro (some under construction), red = commuter ail, yellow = light rail, green = regional)









In fact you use London and and example, and completely misrepresent its services. the Underground does serve "Suburbs" in London parlance, but really these are cities with a density far north of most North American "cities". It's the much cheaper-to-build overground and emerging services like crosslink that serve the actual suburbs (along with much service on the actual natioanl rail network). Finally light rail runs in the curburbs to provide service that does not go to the center. 

The fact that places like Seattle, or SF and others ignore this tried and true practice is ... irrelevant. 

*One thing you are right about is the time cost of accessing grade separated transit* -- it's the reason why dense cities do not replace surface transit with subways -- but use them together ... however the cutoff is not 5km, but in my experience about 1-2km.


----------



## hkskyline

Abhishek901 said:


> The initial question was why do we have subway in suburbs instead of having more subway in downtown. You are indirectly agreeing to my view that we need subways in suburbs too.


We need public transport to cater for changing commuting patterns, such as suburb-to-suburb commutes. It doesn't have to be a heavy rail line if the density doesn't justify such. The fact that the line was extended up to Vaughan even though there are far more pressing heavy rail needs elsewhere in the city just highlight politicians' inability to grasp reality. This and the UPX show the wrong priorities are being executed in light of few infrastructure funds been given to the city.

But if there is plenty of money, then there's nothing wrong to extend the subway into 905 land. Hope this also brings urban planning changes to intensify density to make best use of the new stations.

In fact, for a city of such a size and sprawl, Toronto has a very poor heavy rail network. This comment probably applies to most of North American cities as well except New York.


----------



## Abhishek901

dysharmonica said:


> Actually you are still wrong in your statement. Metropolitan areas everywhere in the world often have 2-3 rail systems in various degrees of serving suburbs, vs serving the city. Of them metro is the mot expensive and thus focused on heavily urbanized routes that will have the needed ridership to justify the cost of building a metro and is characteristics high frequency, all day, frequent, dense-stop service. Electrified commuter surface rail (maybe with a tunnel in the city center) serves a wider spread region with lower frequency and wider stop spacing. Finally, light rail and streetcars supplements these services in secondary routes in the city, connecting a ring around the city in the burbs (often connetitng multiple radial commuter rail lines) or providing transit density in the core for short-haul trips.
> 
> NYC is a prime example (NYC Subway/PATH vs MetroNorth/LIRR/NJ Transit), as is Paris, Berlin, Stockholm, London ... and on and on and on.
> 
> Here is one of my favorite maps of this (just because it's easy to see - unlike, say Berlin, where the sheer scale of the system obfuscates the relationship on a map):
> Copenhagen (blue = metro (some under construction), red = commuter ail, yellow = light rail, green = regional)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact you use London and and example, and completely misrepresent its services. the Underground does serve "Suburbs" in London parlance, but really these are cities with a density far north of most North American "cities". It's the much cheaper-to-build overground and emerging services like crosslink that serve the actual suburbs (along with much service on the actual natioanl rail network). Finally light rail runs in the curburbs to provide service that does not go to the center.
> 
> The fact that places like Seattle, or SF and others ignore this tried and true practice is ... irrelevant.
> 
> *One thing you are right about is the time cost of accessing grade separated transit* -- it's the reason why dense cities do not replace surface transit with subways -- but use them together ... however the cutoff is not 5km, but in my experience about 1-2km.


So in your opinion, subway should be limited from Bathurst to Castle Frank on line 2 and Spadina to Bloor-Yonge on line 1? Or maybe a station or two here and there since that area qualifies as downtown?


----------



## dysharmonica

Abhishek901 said:


> So in your opinion, subway should be limited from Bathurst to Castle Frank on line 2 and Spadina to Bloor-Yonge on line 1? Or maybe a station or two here and there since that area qualifies as downtown?


Pick the highest ridership bus / streetcar corridors and convert them to rail. Simple as that. 

Metro definitely should not exit the dense urbanized areas. In fact where metro ends, BRT and streetcars (in dedicated ROW) should take over .. once that runs out of capacity, build a subway.


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## hkskyline

*TTC unveils strategy to grow transit ridership*
Proposals include partnering with ride-hailing services and replicating the King pilot project, but advocates question whether it’s enough to reverse three years of stalled growth.
Toronto Star _Excerpt_
Jan 21, 2018

After three years of stalled ridership growth, the TTC has unveiled a plan to attract more passengers to public transit.

The document, released last week ahead of a special meeting of the transit agency’s board on Thursday, proposes a mix of measures big and small that could be implemented over the next five years to both increase the number of trips existing customers take, and to draw new users to the TTC.

The roughly 20 proposals include partnering with services like Uber to provide “micro-transit” as part of TTC trips, emulating the King St. pilot project by giving buses and streetcars priority on key surface routes, and launching public relations campaigns in different languages to reflect the city’s population.

“The initiatives in the (growth strategy) will enable the TTC to continue providing a high quality public transit service to its diverse customers in an increasingly competitive environment with multiple travel alternatives,” the report states.

Despite Toronto’s growing population, TTC ridership has been frozen since 2014, with annual trips hovering around 535 million. The agency believes the driving factors behind the stagnation are mostly issues outside of its control, including slower-than-anticipated employment growth, and the rise of Uber and similar companies.

The last time the transit agency launched a growth plan was in 2003, when ridership was on the decline. The strategy has been credited with helping spur a decade of annual ridership increases, but some are skeptical this edition will have the same effect.

“It didn’t dazzle us,” said Shelagh Pizey-Allen, executive director of TTCriders, a non-profit transit advocacy group.

She argued that the best way to attract people to public transit is simple: add more service, and do it immediately.


----------



## MF-01

So if I'm correct it's only when all the ALRV/CLRV are going to be replaced by the Flexity and the catenary changed that the Flexitys will use the pantograph instead of the trolley pole ?


----------



## CrazySerb

I don't get it....on the same page we're talking about subway overcrowding & ridership stagnation, even decline? Weird.

Personally, I don't see any of that overcrowding - my work hours are a bit strange, outside of rush hour (from 11am to 7pm). Besides, the Spadina line is like a ghost line most of the time.


----------



## ainvan

*TTC Future map*


----------



## Tågälskaren

^^
Thanks. kay:

How big would Toronto's Subway become ?


----------



## Svartmetall

That future map is wishful thinking or is it committed projects?


----------



## ainvan

Svartmetall said:


> That future map is wishful thinking or is it committed projects?


The lines with * are future plans. The rest are operational, u/c or fully funded.


----------



## ainvan

Tågälskaren said:


> ^^
> Thanks. kay:
> 
> How big would Toronto's Subway become ?


I'm not sure, I'm in Vancouver. I'm sure Torontonians can answer that


----------



## saiho

Svartmetall said:


> That future map is wishful thinking or is it committed projects?


A mix of both. The map was lifted from this report from the TTC being a 25 year vision on what the transit system could look like. The timeline looks like this (below) from what I can see in the report and what I know about the phasing of the projects.

2021 Eglinton Crosstown LRT between Kennedy and Mount Dennis opens
2022 Line 6 Finch West LRT between Finch West and Humber Opens
2023-2027 Scarbrough subway opens replacing SRT.
2028-2032 Relief Line between Pape and Osgoode, Sheppard LRT and Yonge Subway extension to Richmond Hill Center opens.
2033-2037 Waterfront Transit opens

FYI the GO RER is supposed to finish by 2025 but was not mentioned in the report as it is under GO Transit. Same for other projects that are not under the TTC that will connect to the greater network (VIVA, Miway Transitway, HuLRT, Dundas BRT, etc)

The other projects shown on the map have no timeline. For example the full Relief Line from Don Mills to Dundas West? Could be 2035-2040+ when that is complete (I'm not joking).



ainvan said:


> The lines with * are future plans. The rest are operational, u/c or fully funded.


Not 100% true. Many lines without the * are shown with extensions that are not funded. For example both ends of Line 5 (Kennedy to UTSC and Mount Dennis to Airport) are not funded. Line 6 between Finch West to Finch is not funded. Line 1 from Richmond Hill Center to Finch is not funded.



Tågälskaren said:


> ^^
> Thanks. kay:
> 
> How big would Toronto's Subway become ?


For the foreseeable future the network will remain at around 76.9 km of subway as there are no active subway projects but 30km of LRT (first phases of Line 5 and 6) will open in the next 5 years. Everything else is up in the air.


----------



## CrazySerb

It's already 2018...is Finch West LRT even U/C?


----------



## Tågälskaren

saiho said:


> For the foreseeable future the network will remain at around 76.9 km of subway as there are no active subway projects but 30km of LRT (first phases of Line 5 and 6) will open in the next 5 years. Everything else is up in the air.


Thank you so much for your answer.


----------



## saiho

CrazySerb said:


> It's already 2018...is Finch West LRT even U/C?


No Line 6 Finch West LRT is not U/C yet, it is under contract tendering. So I am being optimistic that it will be done in five years (2022). So really only 19km of LRT (first phase of Crosstown LRT) is guaranteed to be finished in 5 years.


----------



## hkskyline

*TTC struggling with Presto fare gate capacity*
The agency has not yet completed a software platform to support the new gates at subway stations, making it difficult to detect when one of the devices is out of service.
Toronto Star _Excerpt_
Jan. 27, 2018

With just months to go before the TTC intends to shift its 1.8 million daily customers onto the Presto fare card system, the transit agency is struggling to get a software platform in place that has enough capacity to support the new payment method.

The problem lies with the Presto fare gates that the TTC has been installing in its subway stations. As the agency has rolled out more of them across the system, they’ve overloaded the capacity of the existing software platform, causing a glitch that means the TTC is often unable to detect when a gate fails.

TTC spokesperson Heather Brown said that has made it difficult for the agency to quickly fix gates that go out of service, meaning some of the devices remain out of commission for longer than they should.

“We do need the ability to monitor it more. I don’t know what the percentage of gates truly out of service (is),” she said, noting that the problem has “been a bit of an ongoing issue” since the TTC began replacing its old turnstiles with Presto fare gates in 2016.

Brown said that by its nature it was difficult to determine how many fare gates are affected by the problem.

She acknowledged the issue was “troubling” but said it wouldn’t affect the TTC’s switch to Presto. She noted that when gates are in service they have no problem processing transactions.

“I’m confident as we’re working very closely with the gate manufacturer that we’ll get this solved and we’ll be fully ready at the end of this year when everything is fully implemented over to Presto.”

The Presto system, which allows riders to pay their fares with the tap of a fare card, is owned and operated by Metrolinx, the provincial transit agency for the Toronto and Hamilton region.


----------



## CrazySerb

I was watching the other day people passing through the gates at a TTC station (St. Andrew) - literally none were tapping Presto, everybody was using tokens.
It looks like this card they tried to impose on the public hasn't taken off after all, at least on the subway. It might be different on the GO trains, which I don't use.


----------



## Abhishek901

I usually see many more people using Presto instead of cash or tokens. It is especially useful for carrying transit passes. If you lose your regular pass, your money is gone but you can recover your monthly pass if you lose your Presto card.


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## saiho

905 agencies and GO Transit have much higher Presto penetration, they had Presto longer so the transition is much more mature. If you go to Finch or Union, a significant portion of payments at the faregates are made via Presto.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

Tokens will be gone by the end Of the year. Presto is at 18% adoption right now, but will soon increase to 100% as legacy media is phased out.

The finch LRT currently has utility relocations occurring. Construction will begin in the next 6 months.

I believe there are about 32km of actual subway extensions on that map planned, with a lot of LRT and RER service as well. The total subway network would be about 110km, with another 10km in the underground part of the Eglinton LRT.


----------



## hkskyline

Birthday Balloons by Jason Cook, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

*Dangerous over-crowding on Toronto subway underlines need for Downtown Relief Line*
Toronto Star Editorial _Excerpt_
Jan 31, 2018

You didn’t want to be riding the Toronto subway system on Tuesday morning. Breakdowns, signal problems and dangerous overcrowding at the Bloor/Yonge and St. George transfer stations. Even the Toronto Transit Commission called the service “abysmal.”

Wednesday morning brought fresh problems. A cracked rail at Bloor station forced trains to slow to a crawl, making thousands late for work.

This is what you get after years – decades, really – of underfunding Toronto’s transit system and a collective failure to build subways where they’re needed most.

It’s what you get when politicians make low-taxes-at-any-cost their top priority and all levels of government fail to come up with the money to pay for first-class transit in a fast-growing city.

The TTC went out of its way to stress that the problems that hit the system during the Tuesday morning commute weren’t a result of lack of money. A “perfect storm” of breakdowns crippled the Bloor-University line, it said, resulting in masses of riders abandoned on packed platforms. It was ugly.

But step back a bit and the picture becomes clearer, though no less ugly. It’s more than a couple of bad days. Over-crowding at the subway’s choke points is chronic, and it will only become worse as more riders pour in from the newly opened stations on the Spadina line extension to Vaughan.

It’s obvious that the much-discussed Downtown Relief Line, which would let subway riders bypass Bloor/Yonge on their way to the central business district, is badly needed. It would ease the crushing pressure on that one crucial transfer point.

Everyone agrees – in principle. The mayor and city council support it. Andy Byford, as he bade farewell to Toronto and the TTC last month on his way to tackling New York City’s transit problems, said providing relief for the Yonge line must be the commission’s “top priority.”

But, hey, why rush? The politicians and planners have been debating some form of a relief line to downtown for fully a century. Since at least the mid-1980s they’ve been drawing up detailed plans (one was called Network 2011 – on the rosy assumption that it and other lines would be in place by that year, now well in the rear-view mirror).

Instead, the TTC has been opening beautifully designed new subway stations in the suburbs while the relief line to downtown, the line transit users need most, is still a distant dream.


----------



## hkskyline

Queen subway by Edward Lin, on Flickr


----------



## isaidso

hkskyline said:


> *Dangerous over-crowding on Toronto subway underlines need for Downtown Relief Line*
> Toronto Star Editorial _Excerpt_
> Jan 31, 2018
> 
> You didn’t want to be riding the Toronto subway system on Tuesday morning. Breakdowns, signal problems and dangerous overcrowding at the Bloor/Yonge and St. George transfer stations. Even the Toronto Transit Commission called the service “abysmal.”
> 
> Wednesday morning brought fresh problems. A cracked rail at Bloor station forced trains to slow to a crawl, making thousands late for work.
> 
> This is what you get after years – decades, really – of underfunding Toronto’s transit system and a collective failure to build subways where they’re needed most.
> 
> It’s what you get when politicians make low-taxes-at-any-cost their top priority and all levels of government fail to come up with the money to pay for first-class transit in a fast-growing city.
> 
> The TTC went out of its way to stress that the problems that hit the system during the Tuesday morning commute weren’t a result of lack of money. A “perfect storm” of breakdowns crippled the Bloor-University line, it said, resulting in masses of riders abandoned on packed platforms. It was ugly.
> 
> But step back a bit and the picture becomes clearer, though no less ugly. It’s more than a couple of bad days. Over-crowding at the subway’s choke points is chronic, and it will only become worse as more riders pour in from the newly opened stations on the Spadina line extension to Vaughan.
> 
> It’s obvious that the much-discussed Downtown Relief Line, which would let subway riders bypass Bloor/Yonge on their way to the central business district, is badly needed. It would ease the crushing pressure on that one crucial transfer point.
> 
> Everyone agrees – in principle. The mayor and city council support it. Andy Byford, as he bade farewell to Toronto and the TTC last month on his way to tackling New York City’s transit problems, said providing relief for the Yonge line must be the commission’s “top priority.”
> 
> But, hey, why rush? The politicians and planners have been debating some form of a relief line to downtown for fully a century. Since at least the mid-1980s they’ve been drawing up detailed plans (one was called Network 2011 – on the rosy assumption that it and other lines would be in place by that year, now well in the rear-view mirror).
> 
> Instead, the TTC has been opening beautifully designed new subway stations in the suburbs while the relief line to downtown, the line transit users need most, is still a distant dream.


The congestion and lack of subway lines into the downtown will increase the demand for downtown condos even further. Fed up with over crowding or no subway to the downtown at all, people are moving to the downtown as the only option that makes sense. If you live and work downtown you don't need to get on the TTC at all. 

I got fed up of no subway into the core from Parkdale. No way was I taking the King or Queen streetcar. I still won't. Since moving to the core I walk everywhere.


----------



## Abhishek901

But that's going to hurt businesses. Some of the companies may not expand in downtown and some may choose to relocate in the suburbs. Govt should have built the DRL already instead of expanding the subway to Vaughan. It's a nightmare changing the train from Line 2 to Line 1 at Bloor-Yonge.


----------



## isaidso

Abhishek901 said:


> But that's going to hurt businesses. Some of the companies may not expand in downtown and some may choose to relocate in the suburbs. Govt should have built the DRL already instead of expanding the subway to Vaughan. It's a nightmare changing the train from Line 2 to Line 1 at Bloor-Yonge.


Businesses are heading downtown though. They're building/re-locating there because it's easier to attract quality talent if they're in the core. 

I'll agree that the DRL should have been built first but can we not build 2-3 subway lines at the same time? We're so backed up that we'll need to tackle multiple lines concurrently.


----------



## Abhishek901

While Montreal is adding 60+ km of light metro in next few years.


----------



## lezgotolondon

I know Toronto has plenty of streetcars but wouldn't be better if there was another line running along the lakeside and crossing the line 1 in Queen and Osgoode?

As far as I know almost all the streetcar lines are old style therefore not much better than regular buses.

More modern lines with right of way and higher frequencies.
I've read that one of the new lines has a frequency of 15 minutes.
That's the frequency of a second tier bus line.

Toronto city is one of the fastest growing cities in the west and is getting densier and densier, a grea thing but transports issue could heavily backfire.


Plus please explain me this:
- The top two metro lines are very long. They mainly go through low density areas and they even lack services for commuters in most cases such as big free parking areas.
line 1 has gaps of 2.4km between stations. Why aren't they or were built as commuter rail lines?
- Line 2 has a much higher station density yet it lacks both commuter services and is not serving high density areas for the most part. How is the service? I bet it's very slow. 
- Line 2 is too long? let's add 6.4km to connect Scarborough city centre! You want to use the metro to go to Union Station? that's 23km of metro away. Journey time? Google maps tells me 1 freakin hour. Insane.
- What line 3 and 4 connect?
3) Scarborough to: an industrial area (not even in Europe we have and use to travel to such places) , some super low density suburbs and line 2.
4) 3 malls and a hospital and some higher density areas being built. Still more than 40 minutes away from Union Station.

I know that Toronto is building a lot but everything is along small cores, perfect for a suburban rail network.
Right now the old underground of London has a better performance, more station and serves more dense areas.

Meanwhile where Toronto is really growing, the urban core, not much has been built and is being built.
Why?


Sorry If I have been a bit harsh but it's hard for me to understand both because I'm used to the superior european public tranports and I've never been to Toronto.


For reference: in Stuttgart a similar distance in a suburban line that has is not even remotely straight, has a mandatory change and 7 stops, is covered in only 27 minutes.
Another one with several turns, no change and 13 stops in around 30 minutes.


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## Scizoid.Trans.Prog.

Streetcars in Toronto are the worst nightmare. Very slow and inefficient...

Toronto needs another subway line going more closely to the waterfront.


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## MrAronymous

The streetcars themselves aren't inefficient. It's how the system as a whole is organised that makes it inefficient:

-(idiot) car (driver)s
-(lack of) own lanes
-(shitty) signals
-stop spacing 

All this can be fixed at 1/10 the price of a subway. In other words, making it into a surface light rail. But that requires actual investment and taking away car lanes. And you know how much Canadians love their cars.


----------



## hkskyline

lezgotolondon said:


> I know Toronto has plenty of streetcars but wouldn't be better if there was another line running along the lakeside and crossing the line 1 in Queen and Osgoode?
> 
> As far as I know almost all the streetcar lines are old style therefore not much better than regular buses.
> 
> More modern lines with right of way and higher frequencies.
> I've read that one of the new lines has a frequency of 15 minutes.
> That's the frequency of a second tier bus line.
> 
> Toronto city is one of the fastest growing cities in the west and is getting densier and densier, a grea thing but transports issue could heavily backfire.
> 
> 
> Plus please explain me this:
> - The top two metro lines are very long. They mainly go through low density areas and they even lack services for commuters in most cases such as big free parking areas.
> line 1 has gaps of 2.4km between stations. Why aren't they or were built as commuter rail lines?
> - Line 2 has a much higher station density yet it lacks both commuter services and is not serving high density areas for the most part. How is the service? I bet it's very slow.
> - Line 2 is too long? let's add 6.4km to connect Scarborough city centre! You want to use the metro to go to Union Station? that's 23km of metro away. Journey time? Google maps tells me 1 freakin hour. Insane.
> - What line 3 and 4 connect?
> 3) Scarborough to: an industrial area (not even in Europe we have and use to travel to such places) , some super low density suburbs and line 2.
> 4) 3 malls and a hospital and some higher density areas being built. Still more than 40 minutes away from Union Station.
> 
> I know that Toronto is building a lot but everything is along small cores, perfect for a suburban rail network.
> Right now the old underground of London has a better performance, more station and serves more dense areas.
> 
> Meanwhile where Toronto is really growing, the urban core, not much has been built and is being built.
> Why?
> 
> 
> Sorry If I have been a bit harsh but it's hard for me to understand both because I'm used to the superior european public tranports and I've never been to Toronto.
> 
> 
> For reference: in Stuttgart a similar distance in a suburban line that has is not even remotely straight, has a mandatory change and 7 stops, is covered in only 27 minutes.
> Another one with several turns, no change and 13 stops in around 30 minutes.


Political incompetence. No money to actually build something meaningful and useful so they loop around study after study to realize the obvious while traffic congestion worsens.


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## hkskyline

*Mayor John Tory announces 10-point plan to alleviate TTC crowding*
But many of the proposals were measures the transit agency was already exploring or had planned to carry out.
Feb 12, 2018
Toronto Star _Excerpt_

Mayor John Tory has unveiled a 10-point plan to address crowding on the TTC, two weeks after subway delays almost prompted the evacuation of a busy downtown station.

Ahead of a council meeting Monday to decide on the city’s 2018 budget, the mayor announced at a city hall press conference he would support a motion to add $3 million to the TTC’s budget to address crowding.

Tory said it would be up to the transit agency, which, before the meeting, was set to receive a city subsidy of about $577 million this year, to decide how best to use the extra money.

“I’m dedicated to making sure that the TTC is doing everything possible to minimize delays, and to ease crowding, and doing those things as soon as possible,” the mayor said.

“I understand how frustrating delays and crowding can be for people. I know that people want an expanded transit system as soon as possible. I know how maddening it can be when traffic and transit don’t move properly in this city.”

The mayor’s announcement came three weeks after the city budget committee, which is chaired by Tory’s hand-picked budget chief, voted down a similar motion that would have added $3.2 million to the budget to tackle crowding.

Since then, the subway network’s capacity has come under renewed scrutiny, thanks to a series of delays on Line 1 (Yonge-University-Spadina) during morning rush hour on Jan. 30.

Bloor-Yonge station became so overloaded that the TTC came close to taking the unprecedented step of shutting down the stop and evacuating passengers.

Councillor Gord Perks (Ward 14 Parkdale-High Park), a vocal critic of the mayor, said that Tory’s administration was “four years late and tens of millions of dollars short” in addressing the crowding problem.


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## Abhishek901

How will $3 million dollars help? That's like a drop in the ocean.


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## Urbanista1

unfortunately trashing Toronto and denying it the investments it needs has been politically an effective way of getting votes from those outside Toronto and federally outside Ontario. Even though the children of many of these usually conservative anti-Toronto anti-urban (hence anti-cosmopolitan elitist - whatever that is) mind set voters' children are in fact moving to Toronto.

I think the best short term solution would be to give streetcars their own r.o.w (guardrails) and get rid of parking, let cars have the rest. Aside from that get relief line approved asap.


----------



## isaidso

Scizoid.Trans.Prog. said:


> Toronto needs another subway line going more closely to the waterfront.


Toronto arguably needs 3 east-west subway lines south of Bloor all built at the same time. The idea that we can build just the Downtown Relief Line is naive. It will be full as soon as it opens. I like streetcars but in the core they're painfully slow during rush hour. 

*COLLEGE LINE* - from Dundas West station along College to Little Italy continuing down Carlton to Cabbagetown, down Parliament, then along Gerrard to Little India.

*QUEEN LINE* - from the Queensway in Etobicoke down Queen to the Beaches in the east end.

*DOWNTOWN RELIEF LINE* - adjacent to the main GO Train line passing through the CNE/Liberty Village, Parkdale, then up to Dundas West. In the other direction passing through St. Lawrence, Distillery, and the Unilever site then north.


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## Abhishek901

I don't see any sense in building Sheppard line, Vaughan extension, Finch West LRT, Eglinton LRT, Yonge line extension or Scarborough subway before DRL. They should focus where it's already a mess and is going to be unmanageable in future.


----------



## ssiguy2

RER could certainly do a lot to relieve the Yonge and Bloor lines but only if they have TTC fares.


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## hkskyline

*Scarborough RT could be shut down for 'at least a year', internal documents reveal*
City and provincial officials say they think a shutdown can be avoided, but they have yet to agree on a solution.
Feb 12, 2018
Toronto Star _Excerpt_


Line 3 by Adrian Badaraco, on Flickr

The Scarborough RT would need to be shut down before a planned subway extension opens, leaving residents and commuters on the bus for at least a year, internal documents say.

Emails obtained in a freedom of information request made by the advocacy group Scarborough Transit Action and provided to the Star, reveal that in July 2017, Metrolinx told the city there was no way to build a new, contentious Lawrence East GO station and keep the SRT operational.

City and provincial officials have both told the Star that they now think a shutdown can be avoided, but they have not yet agreed on a possible solution.

The aging Scarborough RT is meant to be replaced by an underground, one-stop Scarborough subway extension of the Bloor-Danforth line, currently estimated to cost at least $3.35 billion.

Council has also endorsed the concept of building six new GO stations within the city’s limits, at the city’s cost, to add to the electrified network planned by the province’s transit agency Metrolinx. The stations form part of what remains of Mayor John Tory’s campaign “SmartTrack” promise.

One of those stations, Lawrence East, would take the place of the existing Lawrence East SRT station.

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...t-least-a-year-internal-documents-reveal.html


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## hkskyline

swirls and arch by Harvey K, on Flickr

stairs and escalators by Harvey K, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

The TTC Way by Jason Cook, on Flickr


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## isaidso

I hope those DRL stations are big and airy like the new stations on the Yonge - University Line.


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## Balkanada

That Yonge North extension is such a bad idea hno:


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## hkskyline

Museum Station Toronto by Shawn Kent, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

009 -1crpvib1stpf by citatus, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*TTC’s conversion to Presto delayed until end of 2019*
Toronto Star _Excerpt_
June 6, 2018

A key effort to modernize Toronto’s transit system has suffered another setback, with the TTC now saying it doesn’t expect to complete the conversion to the Presto fare card system until the end of 2019, at least two years later than previously scheduled.

According to a new timeline in the latest monthly report from acting CEO Rick Leary, the agency will stop accepting older fare options such as tickets and tokens in favour of the Presto card at the end of next year.

In 2015, the TTC promised it would phase out tickets and tokens midway through 2017. The deadline was later pushed back to 2018.

Councillor and TTC board member John Campbell called the latest delay “very disappointing.”

Presto machines have been installed on all buses and streetcars, as well as throughout the subway system, meaning riders who opt to use the fare card have little problem doing so.

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/06/06/ttcs-conversion-to-presto-delayed-until-end-of-2019.html


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## ainvan

*TTC seeking new CEO with salary up to $356Gs*



> Think you have what it takes to run the Red Rocket?
> 
> Six months after Andy Byford left his CEO post at the Toronto Transit Commission to run New York City’s transit system, the TTC has published a job posting for his replacement.
> 
> The listing for chief executive officer was posted to the TTC’s careers site with a June 22 deadline to apply. It comes with some perks, including a massive annual salary ranging from $247,556 to $356,046.
> 
> http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/ttc-seeking-new-ceo-with-salary-up-to-356gs












Interested? Apply here: https://ttc.talentnest.com/en/posting/35564


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## hkskyline

Prairie Drive Pedestrian Bridge - Scarborough, Ontario by Richard Adams, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*Doug Ford loves subways so much he's vowing to build them to Pickering, Markham*
Incoming premier also attacks light rail as an alternative
CBC News _Excerpt_
Jun 21, 2018

Incoming premier Doug Ford says his government will one day build subways to Pickering and Markham — cities that are already served by GO Transit's above-ground rail lines. 

Ford made the claim at a Pickering news conference where he was asked about a dubious British study that suggests Toronto has the worst commute in North America.

"We've been preaching for 10 years in Toronto … we love subways. Rapid underground transit," Ford told reporters.

He then attacked light rail, a less expensive form of transit being built in municipalities across Ontario.

"They rip up two lanes of road traffic and they clunk along the street — antiquated system," he said.

Ford, who has committed to building three-stop subway to Scarborough, as well as the downtown relief line — projects that both come with multi-billion dollar price tags — then suggested the PCs subway dreams stretch beyond Toronto's borders.

"We're going to focus on being the most modern transit system in the world. We're going to build rapid underground transit that's going to extend, not only in Toronto, but we're the first government that's going to run a regional transportation system. So folks in Pickering eventually will be able to hop on a subway and get to downtown Toronto. People of Markham and the outlying areas, over time, will be on a subway, to make sure that we get traffic moving."

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-subways-1.4715880?cmp=rss


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## MrAronymous

Delusional.


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## hkskyline

034 -1strcrpvib by citatus, on Flickr


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## FabriFlorence

How would you rank Toronto's public transport system on a 0-10 scale?


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## Paulo Magalhães

FabriFlorence said:


> How would you rank Toronto's public transport system on a 0-10 scale?


i rate with a 9


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## Ontario1

FabriFlorence said:


> How would you rank Toronto's public transport system on a 0-10 scale?


Rate: 4


----------



## Dreiländereck

Ontario1 said:


> Rate: 4



Agree with a 4, for a town with this dimensions I would expect a better metro/tube system. Not used/required, when visited the city center in 2013.


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## CB31

Dreiländereck said:


> Agree with a 4, for a town with this dimensions I would expect a better metro/tube system. Not used/required, when visited the city center in 2013.


I agree.

I rate it with a 2.

Because its Light Rail system (streetcars) also SUCKS (it isn't separate from car traffic, and the streetcars vehicles are very old).


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## Nouvellecosse

I would go with a 7.5. 

The subway isn't large enough for the populated area but it's fairly clean and very frequent and well integrated with the other modes. Its aesthetics are unremarkable but functionality is good. And even then, a metro system isn't the only aspect of transit which some people seem to imply. Even if there was no metro system the transit would be stronger than several major cities in NA. There is also the America's largest streetcar network which is very frequent and has good central coverage (although some parts can be slow) with the new streetcars being very modern and attractive and there's also the buses which are very frequent, extensive coverage and have quite a few transit lanes. 

There is also some commuter rail services with the Lakeshore corridor having all day, two way service with intervals of no less than 1/2 hr but the other commuter rail is very focus on the peak period/direction. However, there are commuter buses that provide service running express on the highway outside of peak. Overall it loses points for the higher grade transit not being as expansive as it could be creating some crowing issues and extending trip times. But overall the transit service is very solid despite excessive focus on the downsides.


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## ReginaMills

hkskyline said:


> Prairie Drive Pedestrian Bridge - Scarborough, Ontario by Richard Adams, on Flickr


Why do these trains look so ugly?


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## Abhishek901

Because they are ugly (like most of NYC subway trains). The one posted by hkskyline a few posts above are new.


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## ReginaMills

Those in East Asia (Japan, South Korea, China) and South East Asia (Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia) look so modern and futuristic. Aren't US and Canada one of the wealthiest nations on the planet?


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## hkskyline

*Presto card balances could be coming to TTC vehicles soon *
TTC spokesperson confirms talks with Metrolinx, but no timeline confirmed
CBC News _Excerpt_
May 23, 2019

If you ever find yourself nervously wondering if you have enough money in your Presto account to pay for your TTC trip, your daily scare may soon be a thing of the past.

Toronto's transit agency is in talks with Metrolinx staff to change the card readers across the city's transit system so they can display Presto balances.

But it's still unclear when that change will happen.

The two sides are discussing logistics, "but no definitive timeframe has been identified for when this will be available," TTC spokesperson Heather Brown said in an email to CBC Toronto.

Presto card balances are already visible when riders tap on GO Transit and the UP Express.

"Presto staff can make it happen for TTC as well upon request," Metrolinx spokesperson Anne Marie Aikins said in an email. She added that including the fare-display feature has always been available, but it's at the discretion of each transit agency.

The TTC had previously cited privacy concerns among its reasons for not showing riders their balance.

However, TTC Chair Jaye Robinson said many riders have been asking for that ability as more and more people begin using the cards.

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/presto-balances-ttc-1.5146713


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## hkskyline

* Liberal leadership candidate would cut transit fares, take over Gardiner and DVP*
22 May 2019
The Toronto Star _Excerpt_

The front-runner for the leadership of Ontario's Liberal Party says he would upload responsibility for the Gardiner Expressway and the Don Valley Parkway to the province and introduce half-price TTC and GO Transit fares at off-peak hours.

Steven Del Duca, who served as transportation minister from 2014 to 2018, also said a government led by him would restore a planned doubling of provincial gas tax revenue for municipalities, which was recently cancelled by the Progressive Conservatives.

"The most important thing we can do for commuters ... is to provide urgent relief to both their commutes and their bank accounts as soon as possible," Del Duca said Wednesday.

Styling himself in contrast to Conservative Premier Doug Ford, the Liberal hopeful said Queen's Park must work with local communities instead of imposing its will upon them.

"What I'm pushing forward is what we can produce when we're working in partnership with municipalities," he said.

Asked why the Liberals did not take over maintenance of the highways and slash TTC fares when they were in office, Del Duca said "we actually achieved a lot," including the extension of the subway to Vaughan.

"But the bottom line is progress never stops, progress never ends," he said.

Under his plan, all transit systems in Ontario could provide a 50 per cent discount for off-peak fares - with peak hours being defined solely as one hour in the morning and one hour in the afternoon on weekdays.

All other times and all weekend and holiday transit would be considered off-peak.

More : https://www.thestar.com/politics/pr...transit-fares-take-over-gardiner-and-dvp.html


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## hkskyline

Interior Shot of #5104 by Edward Brain, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

Untitled by Howard Yang Photography, on Flickr


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## citysquared

Been quiet about transit plans for a while, has government realized there isn't enough money in the coffers for such a massive upload?


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## hkskyline

*TTC, Metrolinx strained by Raptors parade crowd*
Transit agencies scrambled to accommodate huge turnout celebrating city's first NBA title
17 June 2019
The Toronto Star _Excerpt_ 

Toronto's public agencies struggled to cope on Monday as hundreds of thousands of basketball fans descended downtown to join in the Raptors' victory parade.

Transit providers were overwhelmed as crowds inundated surface routes and rail stations, and while emergency services initially reported the situation was challenging but manageable, a shooting near the parade's end point at Nathan Phillips Square caused momentary panic to which police and paramedics scrambled to respond.

In the early afternoon, three TTC subway stations - Queen, Osgoode and Dundas - were temporarily closed due to what transit agency spokesperson Stuart Green said were concerns about crowding at street level.

"People were finding it difficult to exit the station and we didn't want crowds filling stations," he said.

At one point, the agency announced online it had cut overhead power in the area of Queen St. W. and University Ave. "due to unsafe behaviour and people climbing #TTC infrastructure." The power cut affected the 504 King and 501 Queen streetcar routes, and although the TTC later restored power, the routes continued to be disrupted by the crowds.

"As awesome as today is, it has put additional strain on our service. We planned as best we could with additional subway service and staff to monitor crowding," Green said.

Green couldn't put a number on how many people took the TTC Monday, but said ridership was much higher than usual. As many as two million people were expected to attend the parade.

Green said many fans would have taken the TTC, which on a normal weekday moves 1.7 million people across the entire city.

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ggling-to-cope-with-raptors-parade-crowd.html


----------



## hkskyline

Toronto, ON by Dan Gaken, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

Summerhill by Howard Yang, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*A big number': 550 Bombardier workers in Thunder Bay to lose their jobs Nov. 4*
Union calls on federal, provincial governments to help plant secure new contracts
CBC News _Excerpt_
Jul 10, 2019 

The president of the union local representing Thunder Bay's Bombardier workers is calling on the provincial and federal governments to "get together soon" and help the local plant secure more contracts as the company announced it would lay off nearly half of its workforce in the city.

Bombardier confirmed Wednesday it would lay off 550 workers at its Thunder Bay plant effective Nov. 4. The news was also delivered by the company to employees at a town hall Wednesday morning.

"Today's announcement is not an easy one. However, we remain hopeful that we can secure new work to ensure the commercial viability of the important presence of a northern manufacturing plant," Eric Prud'Homme, Bombardier's head of public relations and communications for the Americas region, said in a statement issued Wednesday morning.

Prud'Homme said the layoffs are the result of the "cyclical nature" of the company's business, and the winding down of two major contracts: the creation of bi-level cars for the Metrolinx GO Transit service, and streetcars for the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC).

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/bombardier-union-government-1.5206434


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## hkskyline

Toronto, ON by Dan Gaken, on Flickr


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## citysquared

Wish government would hurry up with transit projects to keep those jobs alive. Happy to see streetcars have survived obsolete now plans to rip them up and make more room for cars.


----------



## hkskyline

T-1 #5030 east of Kipling Station by Edward Brain, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*Let subway workers use face masks, unions say *
1 August 2019
The Toronto Star _Excerpt_

Toronto's public transit unions are demanding that their workers be allowed to use face masks after rejecting a recent TTC report on the subway's air quality.

In a news release Wednesday, the unions called on the TTC to do more research on a fine particulate matter called PM2.5, create parameters to reduce exposure to all known pollutants and to permit the use of face masks until a permanent solution is in place.

The unions said the TTC did not address the cumulative effects of these pollutants or the high levels of PM2.5. Researchers linked PM2.5 to the metallic "rail dust" that is generated when a train's wheels rub against the tracks.

"If we had any reason to believe the conditions posed a risk to employees, they would be addressed," TTC spokesperson Stuart Green said.

The TTC said it treats the health and safety of its employees with the utmost importance, and that the study and analysis were more than a year in the making and involved employees on the health committee.

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...air-quality-concerns-transit-unions-urge.html


----------



## hkskyline

bloor subway station by foto orange, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

Eastound T-1 Subway Train by Edward Brain, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*Community group doesn’t want Ontario Line trains going by every 90 seconds*
Toronto Star _Excerpt_
Aug. 19, 2019

It could be almost a decade until the Ontario Line is up and running, but already some residents along its proposed route are opposing the plan to have trains operate 90 seconds apart on an elevated track through their neighbourhoods.

A community group in the east downtown Riverdale area says in addition to the high frequency of the trains, they’re worried about the impact the construction of the $11-billion provincial transit project will have on their community.

In an Aug. 9 letter to Metrolinx, the Lakeshore East Community Advisory Committee, an arms-length group set up to communicate with the provincial transit agency and the City of Toronto about transit projects, warns that if constructed as planned, the Ontario Line “will harm the quality of life of the very people it’s meant to serve.”

The letter cites construction noise, vibration and dust, as well an “unprecedented increase in train activity” on the Lakeshore East GO corridor as major sources of concern.

Riverdale resident Darcie Garand, acting vice-chair of the committee, said in an interview many locals supported the previous plan for the relief line subway, which also would have served her neighbourhood but run entirely below ground.

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...io-line-trains-going-by-every-90-seconds.html


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## Nouvellecosse

The Ford proposal is for an elevated line? Somehow I assumed it would be underground.


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## blacktrojan3921

That is rather odd.


----------



## hkskyline

Nouvellecosse said:


> The Ford proposal is for an elevated line? Somehow I assumed it would be underground.


Probably a cost cutting measure. Using the existing rail corridor would likely be far cheaper.


----------



## slaz

Nouvellecosse said:


> The Ford proposal is for an elevated line? Somehow I assumed it would be underground.












Latest plans are for the line to be partly elevated, partly tunnelled.


----------



## hkskyline

145 -1crpstrvibfwlcon by citatus, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

Broadview Avenue Tour by wyliepoon, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

M U S E U M by Mike, on Flickr


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## isaidso

slaz said:


> Latest plans are for the line to be partly elevated, partly tunnelled.


It needs to be underground the whole way. I usually don't agree with NIMBYs but a train going by their house every 90 seconds isn't a small inconvenience. And it would permanently cut these neighbourhoods in half. Spend the money and build it properly.


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## MrAronymous

Buying these people out will be cheaper than underground.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Underground is superior for the built form of a city though. I can see taking cost-cutting shortcuts such as buying out homes out in suburban areas (BD line extension would have been a perfect candidate) but this far in should be done right if the city wants to create a dense, cohesive and inviting urban fabric.


----------



## hkskyline

*Out of the darkness *
The Toronto Transit Commission is pushing ahead with a controversial strategy of going public about subway suicides to try to prevent them. And to show how seemingly simple things can stop a tragedy.
CBC _Excerpt_
Sep 14, 2019

On any day, at any moment, Toronto’s subway can transform into a tragic stage. It's a place where every year people try to end their lives. Those acts of private despair become public spectacles that force transit workers and commuters to bear horrible witness, a collective trauma that for decades was shrouded in silence.

A silence the Toronto Transit Commission is breaking.

Talking openly about suicide is incredibly difficult and some consider it nothing short of dangerous. The Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) has a different perspective — that acknowledging what's going on is a crucial part of preventing people from taking their own lives, and showing how simple things can head off tragedy.

"We are worried," says John O’Grady, who's been in charge of safety at the TTC for the past 21 years, referring to the fear of a contagion effect if people talk about suicide.

"But not talking about it hasn’t worked."

It was the death of 27-year-old Michael Padbury three years ago that marked a cautious turning point for the TTC. In a series of tweets, a spokesperson told frustrated commuters the delays were the result of someone’s mental health anguish.

More : https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/subway-suicide-prevention-ttc


----------



## hkskyline

*Metrolinx creates team to take over subway development *
1 September 2019
The Toronto Star _Excerpt_ 

The provincial transit agency has established a subway department that will oversee the construction of new lines in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area, marking a significant milestone in the Ontario government's plan to take control of transit planning from the Toronto Transit Commission.

In an email sent to Metrolinx employees on Thursday and obtained by the Star, agency president and CEO Phil Verster announced Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario (IO) "have formally created a team to work on the subway program."

According to the email, which was co-signed by Infrastructure Ontario president and CEO Ehren Cory, the program includes Metrolinx, IO, the TTC and York Region Rapid Transit Corporation staff, as well as consultants.

Staff working on the program will "operate as a single integrated team" out of the Adelaide St. W. office of Metrolinx, which is the provincial Crown corporation responsible for transportation in the GTHA.

The program will be led by IO president of program delivery Michael Lindsay, who Premier Doug Ford's government also appointed as its special adviser on its subway upload plan, as well as Metrolinx chief capital officer Matt Clark and chief planning officer Mathieu Goetzke.

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...tes-team-to-take-over-subway-development.html


----------



## hkskyline

Subway Musician by Mike, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

Toronto Star_Excerpt_
*TTC aims to speed up subway service with markings on platforms indicating where doors will open *
19 September 2019

The TTC is rolling out decals on the platform of some subway stations as part of a pilot project to speed up service and encourage passengers to be more considerate when entering the train.

Each decal has arrows indicating where the train doors will open and where passengers should wait as they allow others to exit. TTC spokesperson Stuart Green told the Star they were added to persuade people to stop rushing into other passengers trying to get off the train.

“It's just a way for us to speed up the subway system, and make it run more efficiently,” he said.

Decals have been used on the southbound platform at St. George station since early September. The decals are supposed to line up with the doors of each car when the train stops, though the system hasn't been perfected yet.

The decals were first introduced in April at the Bloor-Yonge station. Green said they intend to keep rolling them out at other high volume stations in the near future.

Expanding them across the TTC will be time consuming, Green said, since only some stations have the “automatic train control signal system,” which allows trains to stop at a predetermined place on the platform.

At most stations, drivers have to stop the train manually, making it difficult to line up the doors with the decals once the train has stopped.

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...atforms-indicating-where-doors-will-open.html


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## Polak_w_Kanadzie

hkskyline said:


> *Metrolinx creates team to take over subway development *
> 1 September 2019
> The Toronto Star _Excerpt_
> 
> The provincial transit agency has established a subway department that will oversee the construction of new lines in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area, marking a significant milestone in the Ontario government's plan to take control of transit planning from the Toronto Transit Commission.
> 
> In an email sent to Metrolinx employees on Thursday and obtained by the Star, agency president and CEO Phil Verster announced Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario (IO) "have formally created a team to work on the subway program."
> 
> According to the email, which was co-signed by Infrastructure Ontario president and CEO Ehren Cory, the program includes Metrolinx, IO, the TTC and York Region Rapid Transit Corporation staff, as well as consultants.
> 
> Staff working on the program will "operate as a single integrated team" out of the Adelaide St. W. office of Metrolinx, which is the provincial Crown corporation responsible for transportation in the GTHA.
> 
> The program will be led by IO president of program delivery Michael Lindsay, who Premier Doug Ford's government also appointed as its special adviser on its subway upload plan, as well as Metrolinx chief capital officer Matt Clark and chief planning officer Mathieu Goetzke.
> 
> More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...tes-team-to-take-over-subway-development.html


Perfect, take it over from TTC - irresponsible socialist company


----------



## lezgotolondon

It's crazy that a massive city like Toronto with population and density booming doesn't have a third proper metro line in sight yet.


----------



## hkskyline

One Bloor East by wyliepoon, on Flickr


----------



## TheMann2000

hkskyline said:


> *Metrolinx creates team to take over subway development *
> 1 September 2019
> The Toronto Star _Excerpt_


And here comes what could be a boon for the TTC or the beginning of its destruction.

Let's all hope its the former.


----------



## hkskyline

* Uploading Toronto's subway could be step toward 'true regional approach,' say U of T profs*
 Critics warn subway upload doesn't fix funding crunch, could leave residents in the dark 
CBC _Excerpt_
Oct 3, 2019

The provincial government's hotly-debated plan to "upload" Toronto's subway network could spark much-needed dialogue about getting regional transit back on the rails, according to a pair of University of Toronto professors.

In a new report from the Institute on Municipal Finance and Governance on GTA transit, which was released Thursday, the authors note Toronto transit planning is often deemed "uniquely dysfunctional."

"A city-region as big as the Greater Toronto Area ... requires a system of transit governance equal to the scope of the territory and the task at hand," according to Drew Fagan, a professor at the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, and Matti Siemiatycki, Canada Research Chair in Infrastructure Planning and Finance and interim director of the university's School of Cities.

According to Fagan, a former Ontario deputy infrastructure minister, it could be beneficial to run both subways and rapid transit on a regional basis through Metrolinx, the provincial agency tasked with managing transit throughout the Golden Horseshoe. 

"The upload is just part of what's necessary. I'm not even certain it's absolutely necessary," he said. "That is just one piece of a conversation that needs to be held to have a true regional approach."

The authors argue evidence-based decisions should trump political manoeuvring, with a focus on improving service coordination among transit agencies for "all modes of transportation" beyond subways and rapid transit, be it bus routes that cross regional boundaries or car-sharing programs.

If done properly, the authors write, the dialogue could improve transit across the board, "not just the TTC subway system."

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...-regional-approach-say-u-of-t-profs-1.5299789


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## TheMann2000

hkskyline said:


> The authors argue evidence-based decisions should trump political manoeuvring, with a focus on improving service coordination among transit agencies for "all modes of transportation" beyond subways and rapid transit, be it bus routes that cross regional boundaries or car-sharing programs.
> 
> If done properly, the authors write, the dialogue could improve transit across the board, "not just the TTC subway system."
> 
> More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...-regional-approach-say-u-of-t-profs-1.5299789


I can't hardly disagree with this point, but with who's in charge at Queens Park and their screwing with GO Transit plans and the Ontario Line's rapid descent into stupidity, this isn't gonna be a 'dialogue', it's gonna be the meatheads in the Premier's Office making life more difficult for Toronto.

Transit planning in Toronto is dysfunctional because the people running the system are never the ones making the decisions, it's perpetually being changed and re-changed and re-changed again by the politicians. And when you combine that with a Premier who is yanking the chain of his cabinet and who actively hates everything to do with the places in Toronto that need transit improvement the most. 

If these people want to talk about 'dialogue', get Ford out of the Premier's Office and then, and only then, start having that conversation.


----------



## Woonsocket54

*Crosstown LRT update*

source: https://blog.metrolinx.com/2019/10/...work-for-rail-installation-photos-of-the-day/ and https://blog.metrolinx.com/2019/10/...r-three-year-long-epic-dig-photos-of-the-day/

Laird station










Fairbank station (concrete pour for station roof)










Caledonia station










Keelesdale station (tracklaying has commenced)










Mount Dennis station (future bus terminal)


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## Woonsocket54

*Crosstown LRT update*

west portal near Mount Dennis station










https://blog.metrolinx.com/2019/10/...ted-guideway-is-looking-up-photos-of-the-day/


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## hkskyline

*Ford government pulled plug on Ontario Line event after city objections, internal emails show*
10 October 2019
Toronto Star _Excerpt_

Metrolinx planned to release details of the contentious Ontario Line project this past summer, but Premier Doug Ford's office directed the agency to pull the plug on the event after Toronto's top bureaucrat objected, according to internal emails obtained by the Star.

The provincial transit agency had scheduled a July 18 event at the Toronto Region Board of Trade (TRBOT) to present a preliminary study of the major new transit line, which the Ford government unveiled in April but about which it had provided few technical details.

Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster wanted to use the event in front of a business audience to help kick-start procurement for the Ontario Line, but Toronto's city manager opposed the idea, arguing the city should be allowed to review the proposal before it was made public.

Under pressure from the city, Ford's office told Verster to stand down, and Metrolinx abruptly cancelled the event.

The correspondence appears to show that while the Progressive Conservative government has been accused of running roughshod over Toronto in its attempt overhaul the city's subway plans, behind the scenes the premier's office was wary of doing anything that would risk derailing transit talks with the municipal government.

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ver-city-objections-internal-emails-show.html


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## hkskyline

*City, Ford government strike deal on Ontario line, province agrees to drop TTC upload*
$10.9B transit plan would provide ‘real relief’ to city’s subway system, Tory says
CBC News _Excerpt_
Oct 16, 2019

Mayor John Tory says he'll support the Ontario Line subway plan in exchange for Queen's Park dropping its plan take control of Toronto's entire subway system.

Tory called the Ontario Line "viable," even though it's still in the early stages of its development. The major transit project, he said, would provide "real relief" for the city's existing subway lines.

The mayor said Wednesday the only way to get transit built quickly is for the city to be a partner at the table with the province.

"We have defended our TTC, we have found a way to move forward on transit expansion and to invest in improvements in our existing system, and we have done so with an increased financial commitment from the provincial government," he said.

"That is tremendously good news for the residents of the city of Toronto."

Premier Doug Ford drew up the Ontario Line earlier this year. It's set to run from Ontario Place across the downtown core and up to the Ontario Science Centre and cost some $10.9 billion to build.

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/tory-province-transit-deal-1.5322491


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## TheMann2000

Great news for the city indeed.  Now they need to shift it back to running along the TTC's planned-out route under Queen Street (avoiding that unwise jog down to the Lakeshore East corridor, which is already congested) and we'll be back to where we should be.


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## hkskyline

*TTC to shut down subway service between Lawrence and St. Clair at 10 p.m. for repairs*
Crews are plugging hole drilled through tunnel wall by private contractor
CBC News _Excerpt_
Oct 22, 2019

Subway service has resumed between Lawrence and St. Clair stations on Line 1 after construction work damaged a tunnel wall on Monday — but that stretch will have to be shut down again later tonight for repairs.

Northbound trains are moving at 15 kilometres per hour between the two stations. Southbound trains, meanwhile, are moving at regular speeds.

The TTC says it will close Line 1 between Lawrence and St. Clair stations for emergency repairs at 10 p.m. on Tuesday night.

"Sorry, Raps fans. But safety first," TTC spokesperson Stuart Green said in a tweet.

Engineers examined the tunnel to determine if any structural damage was done and crews are now ready to plug and "grout" the hole, Green added.

The damage is believed to have occurred between Lawrence and Eglinton stations after a private contractor drilled through a concrete subway tunnel liner.

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ttc-subway-service-disruption-lawrence-st-clair-1.5331189


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## hkskyline

Dog On Train by Jeff Bowen, on Flickr


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## Woonsocket54

Track installation at Keelesdale station on the crosstown LRT










https://blog.metrolinx.com/2019/10/...ntos-crosstown-lrt-project-photos-of-the-day/


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## isaidso

TheMann2000 said:


> Great news for the city indeed.  Now they need to shift it back to running along the TTC's planned-out route under Queen Street (avoiding that unwise jog down to the Lakeshore East corridor, which is already congested) and we'll be back to where we should be.


Toronto needs 2 subway lines (Downtown Relief Line and Queen Line) down there not one. They're trying to kill 2 birds with one stone and will end up missing the mark on both. When the City finally figures this out it will be too late. We'll end up spending tens of billions more to fix this mistake 20-30 years from now. For once it would be nice if Toronto built it right the first time around.


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## Nouvellecosse

I think you're probably right, but the problem is that they allowed themselves to fall so far behind that it would need two lines at once to begin with, when even a single line is a huge undertaking. In other words, it isn't a current mistake but rather one made over several previous decades of relative inactivity and that the city is now just doing its best to correct given the situation.

What I'm really uncomfortable about is how they're squeezing the subway into the rail corridor which I fear will lead to a pinch point when they inevitably need to increase the number of mainline rail tracks with the huge expansions of ridership and service planned.


----------



## hkskyline

Out of the Bowels of the City (p.m.) by MapleLeafBryon, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

DSC_5166 by Boris T, on Flickr


----------



## BillyF

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAWEX-fKtmWoUplYVW7j-_DcGCeigk4dt


----------



## BillyF

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAWEX-fKtmWoUplYVW7j-_DcGCeigk4dt


----------



## hkskyline

* Metrolinx paying Instagram influencers to promote Ontario Line, prompting concern ads are 'premature' *
CBC _Excerpt_
Nov 23, 2019

Posing in front of a Leslieville mural, a young woman with a wide smile is holding her baby. The pair are clad in matching tan fleece — a jacket for her, a onesie with ears for him.

In the corresponding photo caption on Instagram, the on-trend mom says she's "excited" to have more public transit options when the Ontario Line is completed.

Another shot shows a different woman in a pink coat (and hat, and skirt) clutching her coffee cup on Queen Street West. Beside it, her Instagram caption claims the province's Ontario Line will "significantly reduce congestion and travel time" through the downtown core.

Search the hashtag #mxitshappening and you'll find more Instagram posts just like these.

They're all part of a new Metrolinx ad campaign featuring young, diverse influencers from across the GTHA who are all praising various transit projects — a move that's got some critics concerned the posts are "premature," and could be misleading residents about the level of design work completed for proposed routes like the Ontario Line.

Since late October, the posts have been popping up from a mix of 11 popular local personalities, from bloggers to YouTubers to fitness trainers, all with follower counts ranging from around 8,000 to more than 174,000.

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...prompting-concern-ads-are-premature-1.5369895


----------



## BillyF




----------



## dysharmonica

Nouvellecosse said:


> I think you're probably right, but the problem is that they allowed themselves to fall so far behind that it would need two lines at once to begin with, when even a single line is a huge undertaking. In other words, it isn't a current mistake but rather one made over several previous decades of relative inactivity and that the city is now just doing its best to correct given the situation.
> 
> What I'm really uncomfortable about is how they're squeezing the subway into the rail corridor which I fear will lead to a pinch point when they inevitably need to increase the number of mainline rail tracks with the huge expansions of ridership and service planned.


It's pretty sad watching Totonto, be incapable of actually admitting it is a major city and acting like one with the long term planning and actually building the infrastructure it needs. (Obvs it's not alone in this on the continent) A city the size of Toronto needs to be able to build the rail it needs, not squeeze in band-aids barely adequate for midsize cities like Cleveland or Buffalo. 

This is something Vancouver and Montreal have figure out much better.


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## Polak_w_Kanadzie

Toronto is a mess guys...


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## ssiguy2

It's true that Toronto has fallen well behind where it should be considering it's size and high ridership levels, the current level of expansion throughout greater Toronto right now is staggering. The Eglinton LRT {with a 10km tunnel} is nearly complete, having started construction on the 12 km Finch LRT, they have built an excellent nearly grade separated 18km BRT in suburban Mississauga, built the Union to Pearson International rail link, and the downtown relief Ontario Line is finally going ahead. 

One of the biggest game changers however is not the expansion of subways or LRT but rather GO RER. GO is a 450km diesel commuter rail system and has had a huge expansion in service. Just 10 years ago it didn't even run 1000 trains a week but that has doubled and will triple by 2025 to 6,000 weekly trips MINIMUM. It will be electrified and run for 200 km each way/all day every 15 minutes as well as more and expanded traditional commuter rail service. They have bought all the needed rail lines so they can increase frequencies anytime and Union station is undergoing a seemingly never-ending $800 million expansion. Most of the 200km is already totally grade separated with more to come and mega-bucks have been spent to add and renovate new/existing stations The region is spending $30 billion to serve the 10 million in the region.

GO has already introduced each-way all day service on a few routes and this will grow exponentially over the next few years. They have greatly reduced fares for shorter distances and brought in partial fare integration with the TTC. Ridership is soaring. Toronto needs more subways but it is the RER system that will be the true game changer.


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## Axelferis

What? I was considering Toronto as a serious planified city! It's not the case?


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## urbanflight

^^

In therms of urban planing/buildings Toronto is good, concerning transportation Toronto is an absolute disaster.


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## Polak_w_Kanadzie

GO RER will be a good thing but they will need to add much more stops and would be great to have a rolling stock with higher "exchange rate" - more doors on each side. Local trains should not stay long at each stop. for smooth flow it need 3 or 4 doors for people to exit and enter the train fast. Usual European rolling stock on a local lines have mentioned 3 or even 4-door train cars. 
Paris had standard and 2-door double decker rolling stock back in the days, but now those standard trains were partially switched to a new type of double decker trains which have more doors and that's what Toronto also should consider.


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## ssiguy2

Pari's RER system is similar but there are some key difference. The Paris RER has relatively few stops within 15 km of the city because Paris has such a huge inner city Metro system where Toronto's is smaller even with the 14 km downtown Ontario Line subway finally going ahead. 

Even the politicians are calling it "subway-lite" because the city is adding more stations especially in the inner city to make it a de-facto subway service. The MINIMUM of 15 each-way, all-day service is exactly that, a minimum. That means Sunday night at 11 PM so obviously during the week they will probably be running at twice that level. Also remember that Toronto, unlike Paris, is on a lake so the trains will converge the closer to the downtown they get meaning even higher frequencies for the inner city. 

The RER will also be totally grade separated within about 20km of the downtown on all the corridors and because Metrolinx owns all the track, they can run at subway level frequencies. The trains, although not decided, will probably be single-level with more doors much like Melbourne's Metro trains so they will have the same dwell station times as any subway service. 

Although not completely grade separated in the outer suburbs {and even then there are relatively very few non-grade separated sections and more grade separations are still being built}, Torontonians are basically getting a 200km subway extension by 2026 but because they are not "technically" standard Metro/subway cars, they don't get mentioned as subway expansions. This with currently funded standard subway extensions/new line by 2030 will effectively bring Toronto's subway system to over 300 km within the decade.


----------



## hkskyline

Crosstown Line @ Eglinton 

Eglinton West with new Crosstown Line tracks, by Black Creek Drive and Weston, with future Mount Dennis Station by Jeremy Gilbert, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

* Staff recommend that Scarborough RT be shut down in 2023, seven years ahead of subway completion * 
CP24 _Excerpt_
Feb 4, 2021

TTC staff are recommending that the Scarborough RT be shut down and replaced with buses by 2023, a full seven years ahead of the expected completion date for the Line 2 subway extension.

Staff were considering three different options on what to do with the increasingly derelict rapid transit line, including a partial overhaul that would have allowed it to remain in service until 2030, albeit with fewer trains and the associated need for supplementary bus service.

But in a report that will go before the TTC board next week, staff rule out another overhaul of the SRT due to the costly price tag of $522.4 million and the “high risk of not achieving the required service reliability.”

More : Staff recommend that Scarborough RT be shut down in 2023, seven years ahead of subway completion


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## hkskyline

Jane Station (4) #toronto #ttc #subway #janestation by Randy McDonald, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

* DO THE RIGHT THING: Motion breathes new life into SRT right-of-way *
Toronto Sun _Excerpt_
Feb 6, 2021

He wants council to forget politics and just do the right thing.

While Josh Matlow’s motion ended up being one of many deferred to council’s next meeting after the clock ran out this week’s marathon three-day session, he’s hopeful his ask to examine alternatives for the ailing Scarborough RT will garner enough support to move forward.

“Scarborough residents have been left with a mess,” Matlow told the Sunon Friday. “The subway proponents asked city staff to put a square peg into a round hole, and it didn’t work out very well.”

His motion requests staff examine repurposing the existing SRT right-of-way to accommodate either new rail-based light transit vehicles or convert it into a transitway for bus-rapid-transit.

“The Premier (Ford) says the three-stop subway is coming, but practically speaking, looking at he history of this, does anyone really believe that?” he said.

More : DO THE RIGHT THING: Motion breathes new life into SRT right-of-way


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## hkskyline

*Scarborough RT to close in 2023 *
Toronto Sun _Excerpt_
Feb 11, 2021

It’s official — Scarborough will be without rapid transit options in 2023.

TTC commissioners voted against keeping the ailing Scarborough RT on life support, replacing it with peak 60-second bus service until the still-decades-away Scarborough Subway opens.

A staff report recommended three options: hybrid bus and SRT service until 2030, a 2023 closure and filling the gap with existing buses, or replacing the service outright in two years with newly-purchased buses.

TTC staff urged commissioners to go the bus route.

More : LAST RIDE: Scarborough RT to close in 2023


----------



## hkskyline

Northbound to Finch by klementsp, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

Eglinton station by Roozbeh Rokni, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

*With the Scarborough RT closing, residents say they’re tired of being ignored. It’s time they had a voice in the future of their transit*
Toronto Star _Excerpt_ 
Feb 21, 2021

With the Scarborough RT officially slated to close in 2023, attention is back on how public transit works in the east side of the city.

And if you ask the riders, they have a lot to say.

The Star asked residents from Scarborough to share voice notes about what using the TTC is like for them. One called it the worst, yet “most reliable” option they had. Some barely used the RT to begin with. Another wondered if the TTC could deal with the sewage smell inside Kennedy Station while they were at it.

More : With the Scarborough RT closing, residents say they’re tired of being ignored. It’s time they had a voice in the future of their transit


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## hkskyline

*WARMINGTON: Councillor Michael Thompson vows to fight to save Scarborough RT * 
Toronto Sun _Excerpt_ 
Feb 25, 2021

So they now want to turn the Scarborough Rapid Transit system into a farmer’s market?

Bike route, garden walk or New York style High Line park?

But there is something Councillor Michael Thompson wants bean counters and non-Scarborough residents behind decisions to derail the SRT line to understand.It won’t happen without a fight.

“We are drawing the line in the sand to ensure the infrastructure here is protected,” the Scarborough Centre councillor and deputy mayor declared Wednesday. “Remember, 35,000 people a day ride the SRT.”

Not only is the 18-year member of council not happy with the decision outlined in a recent TTC report to eliminate the SRT, he is determined to either keep it running as is or create a new concept to serve Scarborough travellers.

More : WARMINGTON: Councillor Michael Thompson vows to fight to save Scarborough RT


----------



## citysquared

Is the Scarborough RT really that obsolete and unreliable that it has to be torn down? Just wondering. I know its exposure to the elements has caused problems and probably in our climate all urban rail should be buried like the Ontario Line probably should be. 

Why not keep this line and its 6 stations, modernize it at a far lower cost than building a $3 billion subway with only 3 stations. The savings can then be used to completely bury the Ontario Line going through dense urban areas or build other transit such as the Lakeshore East LRT into the Portlands.


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## hkskyline

citysquared said:


> Is the Scarborough RT really that obsolete and unreliable that it has to be torn down? Just wondering. I know its exposure to the elements has caused problems and probably in our climate all urban rail should be buried like the Ontario Line probably should be.
> 
> Why not keep this line and its 6 stations, modernize it at a far lower cost than building a $3 billion subway with only 3 stations. The savings can then be used to completely bury the Ontario Line going through dense urban areas or build other transit such as the Lakeshore East LRT into the Portlands.


The line has actually reached its life expectancy. It was intended to run only 30 years when it opened in 1985.









Scarborough RT fleet reached ‘critical’ vehicle shortage last month


The TTC operated the line for five days with no spare trains, risking delays and overcrowding if a single car broke down.




www.thestar.com


----------



## hkskyline

* This 26-year-old Toronto man is the youngest-ever TTC commissioner * 
CTV _Excerpt_ 
Feb 25, 2021

Fenton Jagdeo has been riding the Toronto subway since he was a baby.

“My parents were avid subway riders and their belief was if you want to see the city, you have to do it through transit,” he said.

Jagdeo is from Guyana, but he was born and raised in the city’s North York neighbourhood. He still lives there today.

At 26 years old, Jagdeo is the youngest-ever commissioner to serve on the TTC board. He also adds diversity to the board of 10 members.

He is only the third Black man to serve as a member of the commission, followed by Frederick Langdon Hubbard in 1929 and more recently Michael Thompson – Toronto's only Black city councillor.

Jagdeo said his new position has come with its share of doubters with people questioning his credentials, but he doesn’t let it get to him.

More : This 26-year-old Toronto man is the youngest-ever TTC commissioner


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## hkskyline

Toronto, Winter 2020-2021 by rodrigj050, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

* Metrolinx to demolish stretch of community-designed murals in north Etobicoke to build Finch West LRT * 
CBC _Excerpt_
Mar 16, 2021

A north Etobicoke neighbourhood is losing a massive collection of community art along Finch Avenue West to make room for the Finch West light rail transit line.

The provincial transit agency Metrolinx says the approximately 175-metre-long stretch of murals that sits on a noise barrier wall between Islington and Kipling avenues is set to be demolished this week — something the display's organizer says came as a surprise. 

"We produced this mural understanding that it would be a permanent piece of public art and it would live on for the community to enjoy and view," said John Del Rosario, the special projects manager at Arts Etobicoke

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...h-community-led-murals-construction-1.5950679


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## citysquared

Metrolinx seems to be reneging on promises made to community groups a lot lately, a big reason Leslieville community doesn't trust them to keep promise about not demolishing its most important community centre, Jimmy Simpson, to make way for an above ground Ontario Line section through this dense historic neighbourhood, something that in itself is astonishing.


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## hkskyline

At first glance, there are quite a lot of stops for such a short distance, given the typical 2km spacing north of Eglinton with a small exception at North York Centre.

* Proposed Yonge-North subway extension will see fewer stations, above-ground routes in bid to cut costs *
CBC _Excerpt_ 
Mar 18, 2021

Amid increasing cost projections for the proposed Yonge-North Subway Extension (YNSE), Ontario has revamped its plans for the new stretch of subway to include fewer stations as well as an altered route, part of which will be above ground.

Metrolinx, the province's transit agency, released a 152-page initial business case Thursday, suggesting alternative options for the roughly eight-kilometre extension of the Toronto Transit Commission's Line 1 subway, extending north from Finch Station to Richmond Hill.

The analysis shows that if the six-station plan were to go ahead as planned, the price of the project would reach $9.3 billion, as estimated by the TTC in 2019. The province's provisional budget is $5.6 billion.

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...tension-fewer-stations-above-ground-1.5955340










Graphic source : Updated plans for Toronto’s Yonge North Subway Extension released


----------



## hkskyline

* Man who murdered stranger at TTC subway station should have 15-year parole ineligibility, Crown argues *
Global News _Excerpt_
Mar 23, 2021

John Reszetnik, the man who pleaded guilty to second-degree murder for pushing a complete stranger in front of a TTC subway train in 2018 in a “brutal and cowardly” act should spend life in prison with no chance of parole for 15 years, Crown Attorney Sean Doyle told a judge Tuesday.

On the first day of a two-day sentencing hearing, in front of Justice John McMahon, Doyle told the judge that 55-year-old Reszetnik’s actions were not impulsive on the morning of June 18, 2018 when he pushed Yosuke Hayahara in front of an eastbound subway train at Bloor-Yonge subway station, but called it targeted.

Doyle said the main principles of sentencing that apply to this case should be denunciation and deterrence in order to convey society’s condemnation of acts of violence that occur on the TTC and endanger the public’s sense of safety. 

More : Man who murdered stranger at TTC subway station should have 15-year parole ineligibility, Crown argues


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## citysquared

Truly evil. I've never felt comfortable standing too close to arriving trains. Always stand way back because over fear of nutcases like this.


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## hkskyline

Too bad there is no money to install platform screen doors to prevent these freak attacks.


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## hkskyline

* Beaver wandering inside Toronto subway station prompts rush hour closure *
CTV _Excerpt_
March 25, 2021

An entrance to a Toronto subway station was temporarily closed due to a wandering beaver.

According to the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC), the beaver strolled into Royal York Subway Station on Bloor Street, near the Humber Marshes, early Thursday morning.

As a result, the TTC temporarily closed the Grenview entrance to the station “due to an animal in distress.” The station entrance has since reopened.

More : Beaver wandering inside Toronto subway station prompts rush hour closure



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1375043845256282113


----------



## hkskyline

York University Station by jmaxtours, on Flickr


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## Pierre50

hkskyline said:


> P6170078 by B Toronto, on Flickr


Superb picture !!


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## hkskyline

The TTC is turning 12 subway stations into time capsules from the last 100 years


This September marks the 100th anniversary of the TTC, and the agency has decided to commemorate the special occassion in a super cool, interactive...




www.blogto.com


----------



## hkskyline

Davisville Station by A Great Capture, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

* Details made public about near disaster in Toronto subway tunnels *
Toronto Sun _Excerpt_
July 8, 2021

One metre closer and Toronto would have witnessed one of the city’s worst subway disasters.

The TTC made public details about a June 2020 near miss that nearly saw two subway trains collide on Line 1 — one that only came to light after details of the incident were leaked to a media outlet last month.

The incident began after 114Run, a northbound train stopped at St. Andrew Station, held at the platform for a passenger emergency alarm.

More : Details made public about near disaster in Toronto subway tunnels


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## hkskyline

IMGP2973 by B Toronto, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

* Ontario plans to build more than $60B in transit projects in the next decade. Will a pandemic, looming labour shortage and cost overruns derail them? *
July 12, 2021
Toronto Star _Excerpt_

Speaking at the groundbreaking ceremony for the Scarborough subway extension last month, Ontario Transportation Minister Caroline Mulroney had a message for the doubters.

When Premier Doug Ford announced his subway expansion plan two years ago, she said, critics scoffed that it couldn’t be done.

“But look where we are today … We’re building transit for the people, and we’re full steam ahead,” Mulroney said at the June 23 event at an East Toronto work site. “To the critics out there: Premier Ford has made the impossible possible.”

But while the groundbreaking marked a milestone for the Ontario government’s subway program, it still has a lot of work to do before it can claim it’s turned its transit plans into reality.

Those plans are massive and far from finished. Over the next decade or so the province hopes to deliver more than $60 billion worth of transit projects in Toronto and the surrounding area, including completing at least eight new subway and LRT lines or extensions, and making major upgrades to the regional rail network.

More : Ontario plans to build more than $60B in transit projects in the next decade. Will a pandemic, looming labour shortage and cost overruns derail them?


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## Woonsocket54

News | Metrolinx


It is Metrolinx’s official news channel, providing stories and updates on progress to transform how the region moves.



blog.metrolinx.com














The stations in gray have not yet been confirmed.


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## hkskyline

Highway 407 Station by Marcanadian, on Flickr

Highway 407 Station by Marcanadian, on Flickr

Highway 407 Station by Marcanadian, on Flickr

Highway 407 Station by Marcanadian, on Flickr

Pioneer Village Station by Marcanadian, on Flickr


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## Nouvellecosse

The upper part of the station looks spectacular but I wish they carried the colour and texture down to the platform level. While the stark look of the bare concrete has aesthetic value in the right context, in this case the contrast is quite jarring.


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## Canucklehead83

Nouvellecosse said:


> The upper part of the station looks spectacular but I wish they carried the colour and texture down to the platform level. While the stark look of the bare concrete has aesthetic value in the right context, in this case the contrast is quite jarring.


They all look like unfinished basements! I mean I'm a fan of brutalism and minimalism but they just look unfinished and unkempt..


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## hkskyline

* TTC investigating video of man riding on outside of Line 2 subway train *
Aug 23, 2021
CP24 _Excerpt_

The TTC says it is investigating a video posted by a man who hung from the back of a moving subway train for more than three minutes along Line 2 sometime earlier this month.

In the video posted on Sunday, the man climbs onto the back of a subway train as it is about to depart Bathurst Station, heading eastbound.

He carries a selfie stick with a device using an extreme wide-angle or “fisheye” lens. He waves at a passenger on the platform at Bathurst.

More : TTC investigating video of man riding on outside of Line 2 subway train


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## hkskyline

* TTC marks 100 years of service across Toronto *
Sept 1, 2021
Global News _Excerpt_

The Toronto Transit Commission marked a significant milestone on Wednesday as officials commemorated the service’s 100th anniversary.

It was on Sept. 1, 1921, when the publicly-owned Toronto Transportation Commission began operations. The corporation was created by merging a mix of private and public companies: the Toronto Railway Company, the Toronto Civic Railway and parts of the municipality-owned Toronto and York Radial Railway, a move that also brought together nine different fare systems.

During a celebration event on Wednesday, TTC chair and councillor Jaye Robinson said in 1921, adult fares at the time of operation were seven cents and tickets were four for 25 cents. Since the service launched 100 years ago, she said it’s estimated more than 32 billion passengers have been transported.

More : TTC marks 100 years of service across Toronto - Toronto | Globalnews.ca


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## hkskyline

I'm going to concentrate the 100th birthday-related items in this thread although it applies to the streetcars and buses as well.


----------



## hkskyline

TTC, Toronto by jbjelloid, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

* Toronto transit union wants TTC CEO turfed over Osgoode near-miss *
Toronto Sun _Excerpt_
Sep 15, 2021

Alleging a cover-up, the city’s transit union wants the TTC’s chief executive on the next train out of town over a shocking near-miss last year in Toronto’s subway system.

In a statement issued Wednesday, ATU Local 113 President Carlos Santos insisted somebody in the transit commission’s management needs to be held accountable for the near-collision between two Subway trains last June near Osgoode Station.

“That someone could only be the CEO,” Santos said. “Who else would have the authority to keep such a major incident under wraps?”

Even TTC commissioners had no idea about the June 2020 incident — a subway train apparently disobeyed a red signal and nearly ran into the side of a passing train — until details were leaked to the Toronto Star three months ago.

A northbound train had stopped at St. Andrew station for a medical call when it was cleared of passengers and ordered by rail traffic controllers into a “pocket track” to allow a second northbound train to pass.

More : Toronto transit union wants TTC CEO turfed over Osgoode near-miss


----------



## Woonsocket54

Construction of Hurontario LRT underground portion at Port Credit in Mississauga
























News | Metrolinx


It is Metrolinx’s official news channel, providing stories and updates on progress to transform how the region moves.



blog.metrolinx.com


----------



## hkskyline

*TTC union calls on employees to follow vaccine mandate*
680 News _Excerpt_ 
Sep 28, 2021

The TTC has accused its largest union of employees of illegal strike action for opposing the transit agency’s vaccine disclosure mandate.

The Toronto Star is reporting that the TTC filed an application with the Ontario Labour Relations Board on Tuesday afternoon, saying Amalgamated Transit Union Local 113 violated labour laws by directing its members to not share their vaccination status with management.

The application claims that the directive from the union is illegal and interferes with the TTC’s ability to “manage the public transportation system in a safe manner.”

More : TTC union calls on employees to follow vaccine mandate


----------



## hkskyline

We&#x27;ll Get There Together ❤ by A Great Capture, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

Toronto: On (and under) the Street - 7 (of 8) - Olympus OM-D E-M10 Mark II with Lumix G 14mm F2.5 Prime (M43 mount) &amp; Polarizer by Russell McNeil, on Flickr

Toronto: On (and under) the Street - 6 (of 8) - Olympus OM-D E-M10 Mark II with Lumix G 14mm F2.5 Prime (M43 mount) &amp; Polarizer by Russell McNeil, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

Davisville Yard by A Great Capture, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

* Metrolinx and TTC tout their safety to entice riders back *
Toronto Sun _Excerpt_
Oct 4, 2021

It’s been a rough 18 months for transit as people avoided GO Trains, subways, buses, and streetcars during the pandemic.

Now Metrolinx and the TTC are running campaigns to try to reassure customers their services are safe.

Both released videos spelling out safety measures put in place for customers and employees.

“Yes, it is safe to return to public transit,” said Metrolinx spokesperson Nitish Bissonauth. “One thing that hasn’t changed is our commitment to your safety.”

Part of that safety push includes mandatory masks for everyone, all staff have to be vaccinated, barriers between seats, and hand sanitizer dispensers on board.

More : Metrolinx and TTC tout their safety to entice riders back


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## Woonsocket54

Scarborough subway extension in eastern Toronto










TBM during testing in Germany last week












https://blog.metrolinx.com/2021/10/07/digging-deep-on-the-new-scarborough-subway-extension/


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## Venantio

Woonsocket54 said:


> Scarborough subway extension in eastern Toronto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TBM during testing in Germany last week
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://blog.metrolinx.com/2021/10/07/digging-deep-on-the-new-scarborough-subway-extension/


it has started... Hope no delay and will finish on time according to the schedule.


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## hkskyline

* When you get down to it, Toronto transit’s not that bad *
The Globe an Mail _Excerpt_
Oct 10, 2021

I have a confession: I love to ride the TTC. I love gliding along in those big red-and-white streetcars, gazing out the picture windows at the passing scene. I love climbing onto a double-carriage bus on Dufferin Street, watching a galaxy of human types come through the doors. I even love the big-city feeling of riding the subway at rush hour.

I say confession because this is a far-from-universal sentiment in Toronto. The Toronto Transit Commission, which marks its 100th anniversary this year, is the city’s favourite punching bag. The complaints about it are legion. It’s too slow, too unreliable, too crowded. The subway is always being shut down for repairs and track fires. The buses drive like stock cars; they come in packs, then not at all. The drivers are cranky. Those big new streetcars block up the roads. And on and on.

Some of those knocks are richly deserved. The service has many faults, as any rider can tell you. But it has some virtues, too – quite a few, in fact. Now is a good time to remember them.

More : When you get down to it, Toronto transit’s not that bad


----------



## hkskyline

*TTC reaching out to retired staff to replace unvaccinated workers *
680 News _Excerpt_
Oct 12, 2021

The TTC is reaching out to retired workers as it braces for a potential labour shortage ahead of its mandatory vaccination deadline for employees.

By Oct. 30, all TTC employees need to be fully vaccinated and in the event there is a staffing shortage they are looking at a number of options to ensure service will not be impacted.

“What we did over the weekend was we started reaching out to some recent retirees and pensioners to see if they would be interested in coming to work for us on a temporary basis,” says TTC spokesperson Stuart Green.

More : TTC reaching out to retired staff to replace unvaccinated workers - 680 NEWS


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## hkskyline

*TTC says employees must be vaccinated by year's end or will be fired *
CBC _Excerpt_
Oct 15, 2021

The TTC announced Friday it is pushing back the deadline it has imposed on employees to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19, while also revealing that unvaccinated employees will be fired as of the end of 2021.

Workers who are unvaccinated or who have not shared their vaccination status by Nov. 20 will be placed on unpaid leave until they get their shots, the agency said in a news release. Those who don't comply by Dec. 31 will be fired.

Those measures don't apply to employees with an approved Ontario Human Rights Code accommodation or a medical exemption, the agency said in a news release, adding that no decision has been made yet on how to accommodate those workers.

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ttc-mandatory-vaccination-deadline-1.6212806


----------



## Woonsocket54

Construction on Humber College station (underground) on Finch West LRT.

































News | Metrolinx


It is Metrolinx’s official news channel, providing stories and updates on progress to transform how the region moves.



blog.metrolinx.com


----------



## hkskyline

*This new Crosstown LRT station in Toronto is a half-kilometre long*
blogTO _Excerpt_
Oct 22, 2021

As the last track comes together and shiny trains ply Toronto streets for testing, the Eglinton Crosstown LRT is looking a bit closer to its 2022 opening every day. The line will run 19 kilometres with 25 stops and stations, including a few that stand out from the pack.

One of these is the enormous underground station being built deep below the Laird Drive and Eglinton Avenue East intersection.

Commuters descending into Laird Station from either of its two surface entrances may not notice anything out of the ordinary at first glance, but on closer inspection, they'll find that the station is surprisingly long.

More : This new Crosstown LRT station in Toronto is a half-kilometre long


----------



## isaidso

Union Station​
Union Station by Marcanadian, on Flickr


Union Station by Marcanadian, on Flickr


Union Station by Marcanadian, on Flickr


Union Station by Marcanadian, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

* TTC says investigation underway amid ransomware attack*
Global News _Excerpt_
Oct 29, 2021

The Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) says an investigation is underway amid a ransomware attack that has impacted some services and systems.

The TTC said in a statement that staff learned the transit agency was the victim of a ransomware attack on Friday.

The statement said IT staff first detected “unusual network activity” Thursday night and began investigating.

“Impact was minimal until midday today (Friday) when hackers broadened their strike on network servers,” the statement said.

Due to the attack, online Wheel-Trans bookings are unavailable, as is next vehicle information on platform screens, apps and on the TTC website.

More : https://globalnews.ca/news/8337090/ttc-ransomware-attack/


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## hkskyline

* Union seeks court injunction on implementation of TTC's vaccine mandate *
CityNews _Excerpt_
Nov 4, 2021

The union representing TTC employees is asking an Ontario court to pause the transit agency’s mandatory vaccination policy.

ATU Local 113 filed an injunction with the Ontario Superior Court asking that the TTC not be allowed to put any employee on unpaid leave or terminate their employment later this month until an arbitrator makes a final decision on their grievance previously filed.

“To be clear, this injunction is not about vaccinations. This is about protecting 2,000 members’ jobs and their means to provide for themselves, their families and loved ones,” union president Carolo Santos said in a statement on Thursday.

More : CityNews


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## hkskyline

Through Rosedale by A Great Capture, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*TTC ransomware attack may have stolen personal information of up to 25,000 various employees *
CityNews _Excerpt_
Nov 8, 2021

The TTC fell victim to a cyberattack a week and a half ago and now officials say it affected hundreds of more people than initially thought.

According to transit officials, the personal information of about 25,000 of its employees, former employees and pensioners may have been stolen in the October 29 incident.

The agency says the data in question may include names, addresses and social insurance numbers.

More : CityNews


----------



## hkskyline

*TTC warns of longer wait times with service cuts imminent due to staffing shortages*
CityNews _Excerpt_
Nov 17, 2021

This weekend, service cuts are coming to the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) due to staffing shortages caused by the agency’s COVID-19 vaccine mandate.

The TTC confirms that one subway line, a streetcar route, and 57 other bus routes will be impacted by service cuts starting Nov. 22. Daytime riders of Line 2 — the Bloor-Danforth line — can expect only about a minute’s delay, but nighttime riders will see their wait times go anywhere from six to eight minutes.

Those riding the 512 St. Clair streetcar could be waiting up to nine minutes, depending on the time of day.

More : CityNews


----------



## hkskyline

*Court hears union's injunction to halt TTC vax mandate *
Nov 17, 2021 
Toronto Sun _Excerpt_

Lawyers for the city’s transit union have made their case in court to halt the TTC’s vaccination mandate , with suspensions of non-compliant workers set to begin Saturday.

Superior Court Judge Jasmine Akbarali heard Monday that a key argument of Amalgamated Transit Union Local 113 is that of irreparable harm, specifically experienced by those left unemployed by the policy.

“To suggest they have a choice between becoming vaccinated and losing their employment … they don’t have a real choice, it’s an illusory choice,” Local 113 counsel Dean Ardron said.

More : Court hears union's injunction to halt TTC vax mandate


----------



## hkskyline

Stuck at Lawrence West by Enoch Leung, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

* Hundreds of TTC workers face suspension after union loses court bid to halt Toronto transit agency’s vaccine mandate *
Toronto Star _Excerpt_
Nov 20, 2021

The TTC is set to suspend hundreds of employees starting Sunday, after the transit workers union lost a bid to block the agency from enforcing its COVID-19 vaccine mandate.

Amalgamated Transit Union Local 113 filed an application with the Ontario Superior Court of Justice on Nov. 4 asking for an injunction preventing the TTC from disciplining members who didn’t comply with its mandatory vaccination policy, which goes into effect Nov. 21. The union argued enforcement should be suspended until an arbitrator rules on a grievance the union has filed against the mandate.

In a decision released Saturday, Justice Jasmine Akbarali denied the union’s request, concluding Local 113, which represents about 12,000 TTC workers, hadn’t proven that not granting the injunction would cause members irreparable harm. She also found the TTC would suffer greater negative repercussions than the union if the court granted the injunction.

More : Hundreds of TTC workers face suspension after union loses court bid to halt Toronto transit agency’s vaccine mandate


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## hkskyline

* TTC: 92% of employees have shared their vaccine status as mandatory policy takes effect *
CityNews _Excerpt_
Nov 21, 2021

The TTC says 92 per cent of its more than 15,000 workers have shared their COVID-19 vaccine status as the agency’s mandatory policy takes effect on Sunday.

The transit agency adds that the “vast majority” of unionized and non-union employees are now fully vaccinated.

Employees who did not provide proof of vaccination as of November 20, with an approved Ontario Human Rights Code accommodation or medical exemption, have been suspended without pay. Anyone who does not comply with the mandate by the end of the year will be fired.

More : CityNews


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## hkskyline

* TTC extending employee vaccine deadlines after new public health recommendations*
CityNews _Excerpt_
November 29, 2021

Some TTC employees set to be fired if they don’t provide proof of COVID-19 vaccination will now have a bit more time to comply before the pink slips start flying.

But the reprieve isn’t just the TTC cutting unvaccinated employees some sympathetic slack. The transit commission says it’s simply following updated public health guidelines when it comes to optimal dose intervals.

“The National Advisory Council on Immunization (NACI) has changed the recommended optimal interval time between first dose and second dose of a COVID-19 vaccine to eight weeks,” the TTC explained in a memo to employees obtained by CityNews, adding that Toronto Public Health has also adopted NACI’s recommendation.

More : CityNews


----------



## hkskyline

* Traffic delays of up to 29 minutes are possible downtown for the next seven years due to Ontario Line construction, other city-led projects: report *
CP24 _Excerpt_
Dec 1, 2021

Downtown gridlock is set to “significantly worsen” for the better part of the next decade as the construction of Ontario Line stations coincides with a number of major city-led infrastructure projects, a new staff report warns.

The report, which will go before Mayor John Tory’s executive committee next week, estimates that commute times along several downtown arteries could increase by as much as 29 minutes between 2022 and 2029 while construction on six new Ontario Line stations takes place.

Drivers along Richmond Street would see the biggest delays with the average journey time from Parliament to Bathurst streets going from 22 to 51 minutes during the afternoon peak.

Drivers, however, will also face significant delays on several other major east to west routes during the afternoon hours, including Adelaide Street (plus 24 minutes), Wellington Street (plus 23 minutes), Dundas Street (plus 14 minutes eastbound, plus 11 minutes westbound) and Front Street (plus five minutes).

More : Traffic delays of up to 29 minutes are possible downtown for the next seven years due to Ontario Line construction, other city-led projects: report


----------



## Jim856796

A few questions about the Ontario Line:

1. Will the people who would have been served by the Sumach, Broadview, and Carlaw stations of the previous Relief Line be deprived of rapid-transit access under the new Ontario Line?

2. I feel like the new Ontario Line is going to take away one of the three tracks of the Lakeshore East line in the elevated portion east of Downtown.

3. If the Ontario Line is to use shorter trainsets than the existing two subway lines, can anyone guess/estimate/predict the size of the Ontario Line's rolling stock?

4. Could there be any extension of the Ontario Line to the west in a future phase so it could connect with the Bloor-Danforth Line for a second time?


----------



## hkskyline

* Accused TTC subway pusher appears in court for attempted murder *
Toronto Sun _Excerpt_
Apr 19, 2022

A Toronto woman accused of attempted murder after a horrifying subway pushing incident appeared in court Tuesday morning, as video of the alleged platform incident has also emerged.

Edith Frayne, 45, made a very brief court appearance by telephone from 55 Division.

She was arrested Monday at 6:18 p.m. by Toronto Police at Finch GO Station.

She was wanted after a 39-year-old woman was pushed onto the tracks Sunday just after 9 p.m. at Bloor-Yonge Station.

After landing on the track, the woman rolled under the platform into a space that allowed her to not get struck by an approaching train.

More : Accused TTC subway pusher appears in court for attempted murder


----------



## hkskyline

* Toronto police to boost visibility on TTC after violent incidents *
CP24 _Excerpt_
Apr 21, 2022 

Toronto Police will be increasing their visibility on the TTC in the coming days in order to reassure riders that the transit system is safe in the wake of several disturbing incidents of violence.

Toronto Mayor John Tory met with TTC CEO Rick Leary and Toronto Police Chief James Ramer Thursday morning to discuss safety on the TTC in the wake of the incidents.

“We all agreed on the paramount responsibility we have together – the TTC CEO, the police chief and myself – to keep the TTC safe,” Tory told CP24 in an interview. 

More : Toronto police to boost visibility on TTC after violent incidents


----------



## hkskyline

* Tory pledges more police on TTC but mental health advocates say more supports needed *
CBC _Excerpt_
Apr 21, 2022

Toronto Mayor John Tory announced Thursday there will be a stronger police presence on the TTC following recent attacks — but more mental health supports might be a bigger help, advocates say.

After two recent attacks on the subway system, Tory met with Toronto Police Chief James Ramer and TTC CEO Rick Leary before announcing an increase in "the visibility of police officers." 

Tory appeared to link the incidents to mental illness.

"Our discussion today did focus a great deal on mental health," Tory wrote in a statement.

"TTC and Toronto Police officials made it very clear just how often these types of incidents on the TTC can be traced back to mental health and addiction issues," he added.

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/john-tory-ttc-police-violent-incidents-1.6426983


----------



## hkskyline

20220413_154551_HDR by B.Toronto, on Flickr


----------



## BoulderGrad

Toronto: Where the homeless have hockey bags.


----------



## hkskyline

Davisville Station by A Great Capture, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

* More than 100 people rally in Scarborough to demand better transit*
CBC _Excerpt_
May 7, 2022

More than 100 people gathered in Scarborough on Saturday to demand better transit in Toronto's easternmost district ahead of the Ontario election.

TTCriders, an advocacy group that organized the rally, said in a news release that 11 provincial election candidates showed their support for transit improvements in Scarborough by walking on a red carpet that had been rolled out to symbolize a bus lane. The candidates were from the New Democrat, Liberal and Green parties.

TTCriders said the candidates also signed a pledge to fund more bus service, to support an integrated fare system between the Toronto Transit Commission and GO Transit, and to build the Eglinton East light rapid transit line. 

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/transit-rally-scarborough-1.6445750


----------



## hkskyline

Subway trains, Keels-Dundas West by Jeremy Gilbert, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

Queen's Park Station by Jack Landau, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

* Woman pushed on train tracks at Toronto subway station sues TTC for $1M *
Toronto Sun _Excerpt_
May 13, 2022

The woman who was pushed onto the subway tracks last month at Yonge and Bloor station is suing the TTC for $1 million.

Shamsa Al-Balushi, represented by Diamond and Diamond Lawyers, filed the statement of claim on Wednesday saying that even though the assailant who pushed her wasn’t a TTC employee, the TTC is liable for the incident.

On the evening of Sunday, April 17, Al-Balushi was pushed onto the tracks and rolled over under the station ledge to avoid being hit by and oncoming train.

More : Woman pushed on train tracks at Toronto subway station sues TTC for $1M


----------



## hkskyline

Christie Station by Marcanadian, on Flickr

St. George Station by Marcanadian, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

Bay Street Station by Chris, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

*Rail Deck Park has stalled, but a similar plan is now being proposed for TTC’s Davisville yard*
Toronto Star _Excerpt_
May 27, 2022

The city’s plan to build a massive park over a rail corridor downtown may be stuck in limbo, but a similar dream is alive and well in midtown, albeit on a smaller scale.

The city is studying a proposal to deck over the Davisville TTC yard to create a “multi-functional signature public park” near Yonge Street and Davisville Avenue. The city would also redevelop the transit agency’s headquarters in the McBrien Building at 1900 Yonge St., adding highrises that would contain office space and housing, including affordable rentals.

The proposal is modest compared to Rail Deck Park, which was championed by Mayor John Tory as a legacy project and would have created 8.3 hectares of green space above the rail corridor north of Front Street downtown. That dream was frustrated last year when a provincial planning tribunal ruled in favour of private developers who intend to build a mixed-use development over the corridor.

More : Rail Deck Park has stalled, but a similar plan is now being proposed for TTC’s Davisville yard


----------



## hkskyline

Narrow Platform by Chris, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

* Transit riders react, officials urge caution as mask mandates set to end*
CBC _Excerpt_
June 9, 2022

Officials are still recommending mask-wearing on public transit, though some people who take transit every day say the end of mask mandates on Saturday is welcome news.

"I think it's nice to get back to a more normal rhythm," said Nikolette Herrera, a healthcare worker who uses the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) to get to and from work every day.

"That being said, I feel like it will take a while for myself and I'm sure a lot of other people to get used to it after wearing masks in everywhere for so long."

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/transit-mask-mandate-lifting-1.6483016


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## hkskyline

Bay Station by Jack Landau, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

* A bicycle tire thrown onto the tracks shut down TTC subway service for almost 2 hours * 
CBC _Excerpt_
June 20, 2022 

A bicycle tire thrown onto the track shut down TTC subway service on a stretch of Line 1 for more than 90 minutes Monday morning.

Stuart Green, spokesperson for the transit agency, said security video showed a person chuck the tire onto the northbound track near Queen Station shortly after 6:30 a.m.

The metal rim made contact with the power rail, which has 600 volts of electricity running through it. That caused the rubber to start smoking. The incident was initially reported as a fire.

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ttc-bicycle-tire-service-line-1-shut-down-1.6494556


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## APOQUINDO

I guess the logo would need a more updated look


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## FabriFlorence

hkskyline said:


> Queen's Park Station by Jack Landau, on Flickr


I'm surprised that a city with very cold and snowy winters like Toronto, doesn't have all metro stations with covered entrances. I think it's uncomfortable for passengers.


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## hkskyline

* TTC facing nearly $3M in lawsuits filed by former employees over vaccine policies *
CP24 _Excerpt_
June 24, 2022

The Toronto Transit Commission is facing nearly $3 million worth of wrongful dismissal lawsuits filed by former employees in conjunction with its mandatory COVID-19 vaccination policy implemented late last year.

Court documents obtained by CTV News Toronto show at least four former employees are suing the TTC for a total of $2.9 million, which could come at a cost to taxpayers at a time when the TTC is attempting to recover from historically low ridership and revenue.

The TTC first announced an incoming mandatory COVID-19 vaccination policy on Aug. 19, initially requiring all employees to disclose their vaccination status by Sept. 20 and show proof of full vaccination by Oct. 30.

More : TTC facing nearly $3M in lawsuits filed by former employees over vaccine policies


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## hkskyline

St Andrew Station by Chris, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

Highway 407 subway station by Worrawat Engchuan, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

Toronto Transit Commission 3022 by SNLFan80, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

TTC 2 by Michael Garstin, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

Museum Station by Chris, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*Subway service resumes on Line 2 after Bloor-Yonge Station fire*
CBC _Excerpt_ 
July 26, 2022

Subway service has resumed between St. George and Pape stations after an electrical fire forced the TTC to close a portion of Line 2 early Tuesday morning.

The fire broke out at Bloor-Yonge Station, according to police, and service along that stretch was shut down shortly after 7 a.m.

Toronto Fire Services and TTC officials worked to resolve the issue and were able to put the "main body of fire" out in the late morning.

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/line-2-st-george-pape-service-suspended-1.6532254


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## hkskyline

Davisville by Howard Yang, on Flickr

Untitled by Howard Yang, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

* Months of construction set to begin on major downtown artery to make room for Ontario Line work *
CP24 _Excerpt_
Aug 5, 2022

A months-long street renewal project is set to get underway on a major downtown artery this month in order to make way for the expected start of construction on the Ontario Line.

Work on the new subway line is expected to start in 2023 and will require the long-term closure of a stretch of Queen Street near the Eaton Centre.

Because of that work, streetcars will need to divert along Richmond and Adelaide between York and Church streets for at least five years.

Starting this month, the city will begin the work of reinstalling streetcar tracks on Adelaide between Charlotte and York streets so that can happen.

It is essentially the first of what could be a series of disruptions for downtown residents as part of work on the 15.6-kilometre Ontario Line.

More : Months of construction set to begin on major downtown artery to make room for Ontario Line work


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## hkskyline

Davisville Station, Looking South by Chris, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

DSC_4219 by B.Toronto, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

Bloor/Danforth subway, near Pharmacy by Jeremy Gilbert, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

At Warden Station by Jeff Stewart, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

Davisville by A Great Capture, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

Lean left. Lean right. Since forever. by Enoch Leung, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

Finch-bound subway train arriving at Union by Jacob G., on Flickr


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## hkskyline

* TTC restoring 3-minute subway service on Lines 1 & 2, boosting service on several routes *
CityNews _Excerpt_
Aug 30, 2022

With the school year set to begin for many in the first full week of September, Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) staff have announced they are ramping up certain subway, bus and streetcar services to match an expected surge in riders.

All of the changes will begin coming into effect as of Sept. 4. TTC CEO Rick Leary and agency staff said in a statement issued Tuesday afternoon that without new COVID-19 pandemic restrictions, it’s anticipated there will be a 10-to-15-per-cent jump in ridership. Currently, the number of customers on the TTC has been around 55 to 60 per cent of pre-pandemic levels.

“As students return to school and more people return to in-office work after Labour Day, we know our ridership will increase as it typically does in September,” Leary wrote.

More : CityNews


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## hkskyline

Interior of a TTC Line 2 train by Jacob G., on Flickr


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## Balkanada

The Eglinton LRT will not open this fall as planned. Of course, no new date has been provided






Statement regarding the Eglinton Crosstown LRT


Metrolinx President & CEO Phil Verster statement regarding the Eglinton Crosstown LRT



blog.metrolinx.com


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## hkskyline

In The Eyes by A Great Capture, on Flickr


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