# Amsterdam: Bicycling capital of the World?



## Nathanaelll (Feb 11, 2006)

I AMsterdam

Check this 3 English spoken vids about beautiful worldcity Amsterdam!
Mick Jagger: The world's smallest metropolis!

Bicycling capital Amsterdam


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

It's funny in the first video, that he's talking about bikes like it's the first time he has seen one

The song in the last video is just being elected to being the badest tune ever


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

In all honesty though, if the Netherlands weren't that flat, far fewer would cycle. Many young people don't cycle as lifestyle dictates otherwise.


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

God almighty! That last video .. that music. Which brainworm thought of 'we built this city on rock'n roll'?


----------



## Nathanaelll (Feb 11, 2006)

isnt it cool


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

I wouldn't consider it as being cool...reminds me of Copenhagen, so for me it's nothing special...


----------



## itsmevishal2k4 (Oct 30, 2006)

im sure china or vietnam not to mention other south asian and south east asian cities can compete for the title as well


----------



## Nathanaelll (Feb 11, 2006)

yes but bicycles in The Netherlands have their own roads and its really a part of the way of life and culture!


----------



## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

Same thing for Denmark and Scania in Sweden.


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Yep... that alone is NOT enough to make it a bike capital!


----------



## Joba (Sep 2, 2006)

staff said:


> Same thing for Denmark and Scania in Sweden.


Same thing in Belgium. Especially in Ghent bicycles dominate the streets.


----------



## Accura4Matalan (Jan 7, 2004)

This isnt unique to Amsterdam, or even the Netherlands. The UK has a very comprehensive cycling network with its own lanes or roads:
http://www.sustrans.org.uk/webfiles/general/Sustrans_National_Map_2007.pdf


----------



## sweek (Jan 30, 2006)

Accura said:


> This isnt unique to Amsterdam, or even the Netherlands. The UK has a very comprehensive cycling network with its own lanes or roads:
> http://www.sustrans.org.uk/webfiles/general/Sustrans_National_Map_2007.pdf


Haha, it's nowhere near what the Netherlands has, where every major road has got bicycle lanes. I've lived in both countries and bicycle culture in the Netherlands is completely different from the UK one. In the UK it's a recreation sport. You won't see business men commuting on cycles like in the Netherlands.
That map just shows some recreational routes, not commuter routes.



Joba said:


> Same thing in Belgium. Especially in Ghent bicycles dominate the streets.


Belgium has nowhere near the infrastructure for bikes that the NL have I'm afraid. Nor do you really see many people riding their kids to school on a bike or anything... it's mostly a student thing.

In how many countries can you find a bicycle parking garage, for example?









PS: just watch the first video, the other two are bad and not about the subject really.


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

Ministers cycle to work ...


----------



## Quintana (Dec 27, 2005)

^^ I saw former Minister Brinkhorst on his bike a few weeks ago as well. A colleague of mine saw him get into a small sportscar the other day though.


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

Geert Wilders claims that Aboutaleb had stolen Brinkhorst's bike.


----------



## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

That's a Bicycling city.
In Paris a cyclist is a kamikaze. :lol:


----------



## Joba (Sep 2, 2006)

sweek said:


> Belgium has nowhere near the infrastructure for bikes that the NL have I'm afraid. Nor do you really see many people riding their kids to school on a bike or anything... it's mostly a student thing.
> 
> In how many countries can you find a bicycle parking garage, for example?
> 
> ...


Riding to work on a bicyle is fairly common, though maybe not as much as in the Netherlands. I'm not sure.

The bicycle "garage" you show is very nice but it doesn't seem particularly bigger than the parking lot at Sint-Pieters railways station in Ghent. What's the capacity?


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

The Amsterdam garage is perhaps a little bigger. Not much indeed. University cities in Belgium (Ghent) and Germany (Münster a.o.) have good facilities for cyclists too. In the NL though, many cities have such railway station parkings. The distance to the platforms in other cities is much shorter, making your commute very quick. This is Zutphen, a city of only 30-35k:


----------



## mhays (Sep 12, 2002)

I've seen nothing even remotely Amsterdam-like in numerous trips to England. For all of England's greatness (much admiration), it seems US-like in terms of bicyling. Well, at least the more biking-friendly parts of the US. 

Other than Amsterdam and some other northern-European cities, I'd say China and a few other places in Asia might put up a good fight. But how much has China's biking culture fallen due to their massive car-ification?


----------



## Ribarca (Jan 28, 2005)

eusebius said:


> Amsterdam has a lot of inhabitants but the core is hardly any bigger than Groningen's. Most cyclists in Amsterdam only travel a couple of hundred of metres. Driving a car around old Amsterdam would be an entirely futile effort. It *is* a city of very small surface.


This seems fitting to make my 1st post on here. Have you ever visited Amsterdam. The historical core is one of the larger ones in Europe. Besides, outiside of that you have the 19th century expansions where everbody cycles around. Finaly there are the areas outside of that (outside of the ring road) where everybody owns a bike and cycles into the city centre.


----------



## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

carfentanyl said:


> No, it's not:
> 
> Amsterdam: 743,000 (metropolitan area 2,191,000)
> Copenhagen: 503,000 (metropolitan area 1,085,000)
> ...


I suggest you get your facts straight. Metropolitan Copenhagen is closer to 1,9 million.


----------



## Ribarca (Jan 28, 2005)

We seriously can't be comparing Amsterdam to Copenhagen.


----------



## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

Ribarca,
When it comes to... what? The amount of Coffee shops perhaps?


----------



## Ribarca (Jan 28, 2005)

Very funny. I'll finish this by saying the only city in Scandinavia that can really rival Amsterdam is Stockholm.


----------



## cphdude (Apr 18, 2004)

staff said:


> Ribarca,
> When it comes to... what? The amount of Coffee shops perhaps?


Well, we only sell coffee in ours, so they may have us beat there....


----------



## Valeroso (Sep 19, 2004)

It's so great that people are arguing over which city has more bikes! Bikes are my favourite way of commuting, and it'll be great if the entire world believed so also!


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Ribarca said:


> Very funny. I'll finish this by saying the only city in Scandinavia that can really rival Amsterdam is Stockholm.


What - Copenhagen is 200.000 people larger than Stockholm...

Wow man - there really are some ignorent people downthere! hno:


Anyway this is about bikes, so this will be be my last "vs" like post where we can compare sizes - both are 6km above using Google Earth..

I just feel like we need to get this straight as the size of Copenhagen is always underestimated - especially by Europeans!

As you can see you can't even fill the continues urban area of Copenhagen in the same space that can show all of Amsterdam
And then there's all the suburbs streatching out 30km+ in the socalled "finger" system...









This doesn't mean Copenhagen is better - but when it comes to size there's really no reason to ague this!

Both cities are great - I can't wait to go to lovely Amsterdam this summer and we both have tons of bikes so there's no need to ague about this!


*THERE IS NO BIKE CAPITAL - CASE CLOSED!*


----------



## Skykay (Feb 2, 2007)

Yes Mr. Denmark, Copenhagen is bigger in size. But there are living more people in Amsterdam than in Copenhagen.


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

Ribarca said:


> This seems fitting to make my 1st post on here. Have you ever visited Amsterdam. The historical core is one of the larger ones in Europe. Besides, outiside of that you have the 19th century expansions where everbody cycles around. Finaly there are the areas outside of that (outside of the ring road) where everybody owns a bike and cycles into the city centre.


:rofl:

Born in ......


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Skykay said:


> Yes Mr. Denmark, Copenhagen is bigger in size. But there are living more people in Amsterdam than in Copenhagen.


Emporis says:

Copenhagen 1.819.381 - http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/?id=copenhagen-denmark

Asmterdam 1.200.000 - http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/?id=amsterdam-nestreetrlands

And if looking at the city sizes that looks pretty right to me...



The Netherlands itself is no doubt more populated than Denmark... but between these two cities it's pretty clear to me... 

Not that it matters.. compared to Tokyo our cities combined would hardly make up a Ku


----------



## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

double post.


----------



## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

Ribarca,
I'd love to hear an explanation about your last statement.


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

Cycling in The Netherlands is something ceremonial. We've been given the stigma of being on our bikes but if you live in the country, like I have 8 years in Amsterdam, 38 around Arnhem, you know that we don't cycle that far, and that often.

You can take pretty pictures of the bike ferry crossing the IJ in Amsterdam of course, but if you'd go to the new business districts you'll see very few actually cycling to work. Amsterdam is notorious for having huge traffic jams each morning and afternoon.

There was a blighter a few months ago who posted a nice series of photographs and mentioned he was nackered from cycling to Utrecht and back. Amsterdam bikers are wusses.


----------



## Ribarca (Jan 28, 2005)

Mr_Denmark said:


> What - Copenhagen is 200.000 people larger than Stockholm...
> 
> Wow man - there really are some ignorent people downthere! hno:
> 
> ...


If you read properly I never mentioned the number of inhabitants as an argument for comparing the cities. Somebody was bringing forward silly arguments (coffeeshops) into the whole discussion. There's more to a city than just the number of inhabitants.

Regarding the size of the city. Amsterdam is obviously more dense. .

I have lived in Amsterdam for the last 12 years and cycling is not ceremonial here. It's the main means of transport for the majority as there is such a shortage of parking space and as it's so convenient in this relatively low traffic city.

Anyway, enjoy your stay in Amsterdam, the bicycling capital of Europe:cheers:!!!


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

But you didn't live in Copenhagen for 12 years, so how would you know?


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Ribarca said:


> Regarding the size of the city. Amsterdam is obviously more dense.


First allow me to say Amsterdam looks great, I love the canals and are going there on vacation this summer - so there's no ill will or anything - this is just for fun..

There is no winners or loser - I just like to show you that you seem ill informed about CPH...  

Amsterdam 200m








Copenhagen 200m









Ofcause by dense you could mean population vise...

In that case Copenhagen is numbered at 5.707/km² where Asterdam is 4.459/km² 

Links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_selected_cities_by_population_density / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen 

Now will you accept it? 



Ribarca said:


> Anyway, enjoy your stay in Amsterdam, the bicycling capital of Europe:cheers:!!!


Thanks - I'm looking forward to the CANAL capital of Europe!


----------



## Ribarca (Jan 28, 2005)

@Mr Denmark

I love the selective juggling with numbers. Then you selectively pick an area of Amsterdam. The historical core is obviously not the most populated. The density of Amsterdam lies in the areas outside that.

Anyway enjoy your stay in town.


----------



## hix (Jun 11, 2006)

Well, one thing is sure: Brussels is NOT the bike capital of the world. Here only 3 to 4 % of the people use bicycles. And it's improving because 5 years ago it was only 1 %!
Anyway, it's clear that the Netherlands win the competition, and Denmark is second. Maybe Belgium comes third with cities like Ghent en Leuven.
It's clear that Amsterdam is the Bike Capital of the world. Danish who do not want to admit this are only nationalistic.
And stop this discussion about witch city is bigger. You can never make a point there because there's always somebody who claims that this or that suburb should be considered as part of the city as well


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

hix said:


> It's clear that Amsterdam is the Bike Capital of the world. Danish who do not want to admit this are only nationalistic.


How in the world is that clear?

I've seen neither any proof nor any links comparing our cities - all I've seen is the thread names claim and a video I found unimpressive bike vise!



hix said:


> And stop this discussion about witch city is bigger. You can never make a point there because there's always somebody who claims that this


We all have eyes, we all can read and we can all use Google Earth - if you still think Amsterdam is larger than Copenhagen by all means do that ( we're used to misinformed people and the size issue )
Luckily all who looks can see the truth...

Not that it has much to do with bikes though... it's still just how it is!




Ribarca said:


> I love the selective juggling with numbers. Then you selectively pick an area of Amsterdam.


I picked the predestrian area because both cities have them and their are locate downtown in both...



Ribarca said:


> The historical core is obviously not the most populated. The density of Amsterdam lies in the areas outside that.


Neither is Copenhagens historic core...

I'd love nothing more that to compare Copenhagen's Vesterbro or Nørrebro district's desity with anything you can come up with...  

BTW - if you dislike my pics, how about doing it yourself - this thread is open to all!  


This is ofcause not a competition - but when the thread is called as this is and at best features a film that frankly isn't very impressive bike-vise ( the city looks lovely ofcause! ) I think it's fair to debate that claim... especially since the thread title features a questionmark!

So until I see the same level of bike-infrastructure and bike usage as I've grown up with here - I'll ofcause object to that claim...

( Biking among cars and trams - that's not a bike capital - that an early way to the grave! )


This is ofcause all in good fun - so let's keep it jolly and continue with the evidence shall we...


Here's some Copenhagen bike-infrastructure...

The ever present bike lanes









Bike lanes with road lines and bike traffic lights ( and the blue bikelane surface in the intersections )









Bike/pedestrian bridge over the habour









Bikes only roads









And ofcause bikes... bikes everywhere  



















And finally a pic of how people get's to their favorite spot in the parks


----------



## hix (Jun 11, 2006)

^^


> We all have eyes, we all can read and we can all use Google Earth - if you still think Amsterdam is larger than Copenhagen by all means do that (we’re used to misinformed people and the size issue)
> Luckily all who looks can see the truth...


@Mr Denmark
It's clear you absolutely want to proof Copenhagen is larger than Amsterdam. I don't care which city is, all I know is that it's pointless. It has nothing to do with the topic.
It is clear that your entire discussion is based on the fact that you want your city and country to win. The only facts you are taking into account are the facts that are prooving your points. For a neutral observer it's clear that no country can beat the Netherlands in cycling. In these posts only Danish are saying something different... 
On the other hand Copenhagen is indeed a cycling paradise. If only it could be like that in my city. As you have said, Copenhagen has build a nice infrastructure. It's sadly not enough to win this competition: Amsterdam wins...


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

lol - instead of telling me what I do - what about doing something yourself instead of just saying "X is this" and "Y is that"

Do I want to make people aware of Copenhagen's size in this case - yes I do since MANY MANY people seems ill informed about it - and in many cases will sort to all sorts of ridicules explanations to back up their claim...

As I have said about a zillion times already - there is NO bike capital... not Amsterdam, not Copenhagen not anywhere...

What there is, is several great cities with a lot of bikes... and what we can do here is compare those and let each person make up his own mind... ( you think it's Amsterdam, good for you - you want to claim it, prove it! )

But tell you what, as long as people like you keep claiming there IS a bike-capital I will prove that other places surpass it in many ways ( just as could be done had it been Copenhagen this thread claimed was a bike capital )


----------



## hix (Jun 11, 2006)

^^ I have been in many cities in many countries in different parts of the world. (Denmark included) And never have I seen a city where the bike is so much the queen of the street as in Amsterdam. There are a lot of cyclists in Denmark, much more than in Belgium or Germany... but it's not beating Holland. I'm sorry I don't have facts to back up my claim. Anyway Denmark is a very strong second place. Congratulations!


----------



## ikra (Jul 10, 2006)

another beautiful european city


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

hix said:


> ^^ I have been in many cities in many countries in different parts of the world. (Denmark included) And never have I seen a city where the bike is so much the queen of the street as in Amsterdam. There are a lot of cyclists in Denmark, much more than in Belgium or Germany... but it's not beating Holland. I'm sorry I don't have facts to back up my claim. Anyway Denmark is a very strong second place. Congratulations!


And I do have read surveys and reports that back up my claim, and that's why I was confident to provoke the usual suspects on this thread. I am a Netherlander and I * do not* see my people travelling by bike as much as the tourist information would tell you. On top of that the software used to control the bike traffic around here is *Danish*.

Many of you seem very eager to believe stereotypes.


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Howcome people in Amsterdam don't use jet-ski's btw?


----------



## nabob (Jun 7, 2006)

eusebius said:


> And I do have read surveys and reports that back up my claim, and that's why I was confident to provoke the usual suspects on this thread. I am a Netherlander and I * do not* see my people travelling by bike as much as the tourist information would tell you. On top of that the software used to control the bike traffic around here is *Danish*.
> 
> Many of you seem very eager to believe stereotypes.


Ga toch fietsen! 
In 2003 the average amount of cycling kilometers in the Netherlands was 13.9 milliard kilometers. This figure is higher than the Danish one. So the conclusion is that there are no stereotypes about travelling by bike as you believe.


----------



## sjon (Mar 12, 2007)

mr denmark......maybe you should start a treat about scandinavia vs benelux, where you can discus this.


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

nabob said:


> In 2003 the average amount of cycling kilometers in the Netherlands was 13.9 milliard kilometers. This figure is higher than the Danish one.


Indeed it is - *got a link?*

If this is real ( and "milliard" means "billiard" as I think it does ) then the Netherlands people bike twice as much as Danes in general... not bad at all!




sjon said:


> mr denmark......maybe you should start a treat about scandinavia vs benelux, where you can discus this.


Why?


The thread asks a question - and we are debating the answer... what's wrong in that?


Instead of bashing me for trying, how about doing the same yourself... the numbers must be out there for the two citites respectively!


----------



## DannyH (Nov 4, 2006)

nabob said:


> Ga toch fietsen!
> In 2003 the average amount of cycling kilometers in the Netherlands was 13.9 milliard kilometers. (..)





Mr_Denmark said:


> Indeed it is - *got a link?*
> 
> If this is real ( and "milliard" means "billiard" as I think it does ) then the Netherlands people bike twice as much as Danes in general... (..)


About the 'milliards' and the 'billiards'...

I think it should say: 'billion kilometers' (miljard in Dutch). Although actually I still don't believe that number, so it's probably 'million'.

For example, if a person were to cycle 13.9 'milliard' kilometers (if 'milliard' even exists and I think 'milliard' would be 10^15), he/she would have cycled around the world approx. 315 billion, or 315,000,000,000 times! :nuts: 

Yeah right!


----------



## hix (Jun 11, 2006)

DannyH said:


> About the 'milliards' and the 'billiards'...
> 
> I think it should say: 'billion kilometers' (miljard in Dutch). Although actually I still don't believe that number, so it's probably 'million'.
> 
> ...


actually it means that every Dutch cycles 866 km per year (13.9 billion divided by 15 million). I believe this is accurate. I also believe that the Danish cycle +/- 600 per person per year.


----------



## nabob (Jun 7, 2006)

The link is: http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas...aties/artikelen/archief/2004/2004-1470-wm.htm

So it is indeed milliard (or billion)


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

In 2002 danes cycled 2.344.000.000 km and there 5.400.000 people living in Denmark...in short the average dane cycled 434 km in 2002...that's the half of the dutch...

but still this is the whole country and not Amsterdam and Copenhagen...actually I don't care...I really enjoy riding a bike here in Copenhagen and couldn't imagine that the cycle-conditions in Amsterdam are better then here in Copenhagen...But to make a short long story short, they are both fantastic cities and it's surely great to ride a bike in both of them...end of discussion


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

Mr D. I understand you are coming to Amsterdam in the near future? (maybe I can show you the city!).
When you do, you will see for yourself that it in fact is bigger, busier, more dense and has more bicycles/cyclists than Copenhagen.

Both Amsterdam and Copenhagen are among my favourite cities in the world, indeed because they are so much alike!
While Copenhagen is more "grand" (the palaces and other grand architecture), has a great jem right in the city center with Tivoli and has a better/more modern subway, don't forget that Amsterdam is in a densely populated part of the world, the center of an area with 8 to 10 million people, a highly international city with a lot of tourists coming to it.

Emporis is not a great source to go look for population figures, especially not on metro areas. The below breakdown is more accurate:

*AMS*
city: 743,000
urban area: 1,2 million
metro area:2,1/2,5 million
Deltametropolis: 8 million

*CPH*
city: 505,000
urban area: 1,2 million
metro area: 1,8 million
Oresund: 3,5 million

I will give you that CPH is more centralised metro area wise, with the Amsterdam metro having multiple centers in Haarlem (think Oakland as to SF), Hoofddorp/Schiphol and a large suburb in Almere.

But if you visit both cities regurlarly like I do, it's clear that Amsterdam is a tad bigger/busier/more international/diverse.


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

There's no doubt the Netherlands is more populated ( or as a nation more dense ) - never said it wasn't - all I said was that if we have to compare AMS with CPH - Copenhagen is the largest of them...

And the way you talk about AMS metro is the way we talk Øresunds region..


Not that it matters but let me again point out that the 503K figue is for Copenhagen municipal only - not the "city"

Ingulfed in the muncipal you will find Frederiksberg municipal ( pop 90.000 ) - it was btw founded by Dutch immigrants - and that is very much a part of the inner city too ( pretty much the best part imo )

And you have to go trough several of the suburb municipals before finding farmland... all urban area ( and many parts pretty dense )


















So officially the number is 593.000 :yes: ( for the white zone on the map aka "city" )

From Radisson SAS Falkoner Hotel looking over Frederiksberg towards downtown CPH


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Just for the heck of it... here's Amsterdam and Copenhagen at "12km" by Google Earth...

AMS








CPH









In the Copenhagen one you can see the start of the "finger system " where it like a hand has several fingers going around 40km out from the City itself...


----------



## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

I think those maps shows that Amsterdam, as a whole, is quite a bit more dense than Copenhagen. 

I think the two cities are very similar in size - although there's no discussion which one is the busier of the two - it's obviously Amsterdam.

As for "bicycle capital"? Just let it go already.


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

AMS is no metro area, let alone it'd include the capital of the province: Haarlem :laugh: , the Deltametropolis is a only a forum ghost. There simply are a bit more people living in the core of CPH, that's all. Been acknowledged in each and every atlas that has ever appeared during the past 50 years.


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

Mr D...,

look at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen#Population
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Capital_Region

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam#Metropolitan_area

As you can see 
Amsterdam 2,191,259 on 1,896.97 km² (1,447.36 km² is land)
Copenhagen 1,823,109 on 2,926 km² (2,864.14 km² is land)



Also, the Oresund Region (3,584,000 population) is 20,869 km² which is larger than the whole Deltametropolis area with 8-10 million inhabitants (the entire Netherlands is 41,526 km²).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresund_Region

Now do you believe me?


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

Some visuals:

Amsterdam metro (blue) in Deltametropolis and Copenhagen and Oresund (same scale!)








Light blue is a part that's not included in the Amsterdam metro 2,100,000 figure but arguably should be (hence the 2,1/2,5 million figure and it could go even higher using even more liberal methods).


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

ORiHS said:


> Now do you believe me?


Ofcause - there never were any doubt about the Netherlands being more densely populated..

You guys pack 16.5mil in 41.526 km² 

We pack 5.4mil in 43.094 km²

So there's no way we can ever match that!  


We seem to look at what should belong to a metro area a bit differently - but I can accept the blue zone as long as Roskilde is counted too ( wich it is, but not shown on the drawings )


Anyway going over the links you postes in dawns for me just how close the numbers actually are despite our cities being very differently...

The Copenhagen/Frederikberg Municipals ( City ) packs 593.925 on 96 km² 

Amsterdam 743.027 219 km²

So on that level Copenhagen is clearly the densest... 


Moving out a bit we get:

Metropolitan Copenhagen 1,116,979 455.61 km² 

Amsterdam Urban area 1,209,419 896 km² 



From that in the Copenhagen urban area continues for quite so time ( and space - it get's very sprawly ) and totals at around 1.5mil +/- depending on how you define Urban area..

And from there on Amsterdam starts gaining big time as you territory-wise get's to cities like Haarlem... were we only get's to Roskilde and Køge


So I will still claim Copenhagen is the largest of the two.. even by quite a bit, both in population and density - but when it comes to metro and region you guys kick our asses!  

( PM incomming btw )


About the capital claim I'm still far from convinced - but on a national scale it seems the Dutch do bike twice a long as we do... making me quite interested in knowing about the car-ownership procentage in the Netherlands??


Anyway... I gotta get some sleep... so cheerios lads!


----------



## nabob (Jun 7, 2006)

Everything is nice about this comparison between Copenhagen and Amsterdam. In particular the population of these two cities but till so far I haven't found any argument against my claim that Groningen is the bicycle city of at least Europe. And let me be very clear about this, it's not only about figures of bicycle usage. The bike friendly policy of this city and its infrastructure for the bike and the great number of students (Groningen is the 'youngest city' in the Netherlands) makes Groningen, compared with other cities, a real and true capital of bicycle.


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

^If it has the bike infrastructure we been talking about ( bike lanes, lights, sensors and all that ) Groningen does indeed seem to be the winner...


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

Hehehe, not giving up so easily are you...

Anyway, you still come to the wrong conclusions...

Clearly when comparing the size of cities, it's most fair to include the suburbs. Otherwise Berlin would be larger than Paris and lines on a map would mean more than reality. So in that respect it is clear that Amsterdam is larger than Copenhagen 2,2 million (or even 2,5 million) versus 1,8 million on a smaller area (we agree about this right?)

On to urban area. Both cities are 1,2 million in this respect.
You say that the Amsterdam urban area takes up 896 km², but indeed this number is the TOTAL area of all municipalities included in the urban area NOT the total developed area!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam#Urban_area
The sentence "The size of the entire urban area is 896.96 km², whereof 718.03 km² is land" already hints at this.
If you look at the maps I posted and in fact at the Google Maps you yourself posted, you can see that Amsterdam's urban area is in fact SMALLER than Copenhagen's. Staff already pointed that out in an earlier post too.

On to the municipalities.
The numbers for these are:
Amsterdam 743,000 on 219 km² ( BUT! 166 km² land)
Copenhagen 503,000 on 88 km², 594.000 on 96 km² with Frederiksberg

You didn't account for the 219 km² not all being land much less developed land. In fact, municipal Amsterdam includes a lot of undeveloped land and a large port, so while municipal Copenhagen might be denser on paper, if you account for the build up area where people actually live, it is not.

So the conclusions to all this must be:

Amsterdam is the larger city metro wise.
Amsterdam and Copenhagen both have an urban area of 1,2 million people, but Amsterdam's has a smaller area making it more dense.
Amsterdam puts 743,000 people on about 100 km², while Copenhagen puts 503,000 on 88 km² (594.000 on 96 km² with Frederiksberg), making Amsterdam the denser city.
Yes you are right, Copenhagen municipality is denser on paper, but this is due to the fact that much of Amsterdam's municipality is either water, undeveloped land or port. Copenhagen is also denser than Madrid on paper and we all know that can't be true, right?(municipal Madrid includes a large forest and the international airport).

Anyway, I can see how you got confused about the density but not about the size. You cannot logically conclude that Copenhagen is the larger city without comparing apples to oranges...

:cheers:


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

nabob said:


> Everything is nice about this comparison between Copenhagen and Amsterdam. In particular the population of these two cities but till so far I haven't found any argument against my claim that Groningen is the bicycle city of at least Europe. And let me be very clear about this, it's not only about figures of bicycle usage. The bike friendly policy of this city and its infrastructure for the bike and the great number of students (Groningen is the 'youngest city' in the Netherlands) makes Groningen, compared with other cities, a real and true capital of bicycle.


Who says that "per capita" determines what city is the bicycle capital (if there even is such a thing)?
It's clear that there are way more bikes in Amsterdam, way more people biking and a far bigger bike network.


----------



## nabob (Jun 7, 2006)

ORiHS said:


> Who says that "per capita" determines what city is the bicycle capital (if there even is such a thing)?
> It's clear that there are way more bikes in Amsterdam, way more people biking and a far bigger bike network.


So, the bigger the better?
Then will Beijing or another big Chinese city be 'the bicycle capital of the world'. :lol: 
Groningen is a more bike friendly city than Amsterdam. Of course Amsterdam has more bikes and a bigger network. Amsterdam has, for example, a larger population as well but that doesn't make the city better for living. And for the 'per capita' argument: the people in Groningen make still more kilometers by bike than anywhere in the western world (and I can imagine that the municipality of Emmen has a larger bike network than A'dam).


----------



## DannyH (Nov 4, 2006)

hix said:


> actually it means that every Dutch cycles 866 km per year (13.9 billion divided by 15 million). I believe this is accurate. I also believe that the Danish cycle +/- 600 per person per year.


Exactly, 13.9 *billion*. That's the number that it should be. I found that 'Milliard' is not used anymore in English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales), but it it actually the same. If this is true, you must ignore my little calculation .


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

ORiHS said:


> Amsterdam and Copenhagen both have an urban area of 1,2 million people, but Amsterdam's has a smaller area making it more dense.
> Amsterdam puts 743,000 people on about 100 km², while Copenhagen puts 503,000 on 88 km² (594.000 on 96 km² with Frederiksberg), making Amsterdam the denser city.


Ehmm... just curious how 219 km² became 100 km² ???  

Copenhagen municipal has lots of water, canals and greenspaces too - should we deduct that too - or just keep to the official numbers?

Just look at the empty unsued area "Fællen" on the island of Amager - that only resently started seing construction ( "Ørestaden" )











About urban area Copenhagen's is way bigger than 1.2mil

Metropolitan Copenhagen is not the urban area - it's only a leftover from the time when Denmark used counties...


















Neither Northern Copenhagen nor the Køge bay area is included, just as a few dominant inland area are missing.... ( the finger system )


Once again I fully accept that once you start including nearby cities Amsterdam takes off do to the huge population in the Netherlands compared Denmark...

But between these two cities alone... both size and desity is still pretty clear to me...


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

There simply isn't that much bike traffic going beyond the 'grachtengordel' of Amsterdam. I seem to be the only person from Amsterdam on this thread. I've seen too many reports denying the fact that people in the NL cycle more than those in DK.

And once for all, you'd have to bear in mind that Amsterdam is not a capital in the sense that Brussels or Copenhagen are. The Hague is the #1 place for government buildings and embassies.


----------



## nabob (Jun 7, 2006)

eusebius said:


> There simply isn't that much bike traffic going beyond the 'grachtengordel' of Amsterdam. I seem to be the only person from Amsterdam on this thread. I've seen too many reports denying the fact that people in the NL cycle more than those in DK.
> 
> And once for all, you'd have to bear in mind that Amsterdam is not a capital in the sense that Brussels or Copenhagen are. The Hague is the #1 place for government buildings and embassies.


So, those 13,9 billion bike kilometers of the Dutch are mostly made within the so called 'grachtengordel' of Amsterdam?
'Capital' is not about politics in this thread. I think it's used to make clear what is the most bike orientated city in the world (like Jeruzalem is a religious capital and New york is/was a financial capital).


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

nabob said:


> So, the bigger the better?
> Then will Beijing or another big Chinese city be 'the bicycle capital of the world'. :lol:
> Groningen is a more bike friendly city than Amsterdam. Of course Amsterdam has more bikes and a bigger network. Amsterdam has, for example, a larger population as well but that doesn't make the city better for living. And for the 'per capita' argument: the people in Groningen make still more kilometers by bike than anywhere in the western world (and I can imagine that the municipality of Emmen has a larger bike network than A'dam).


No because you also have to take into account the number of bikes relative to other forms of traffic. There might be millions of bikes in Beijing, but the bike is (no longer) queen of the streets there like it is in Amsterdam. There isn't any real biking infrastructure either in the form of dedicated paths, traffic light, parking etc. If anything, Chinese cities are becoming more car dependent every day.
Groningen might be the most bike friendly city in the Netherlands/Europe, have the most bikes and biking kilometers per capita, I wouldn't call it the capital because it is simply too small. 
Besides, there is bound to be a smaller town somewhere which has even more bikes/biking kilometers per capita. Should we call that town the capital then?
"Capital" of anything (other than official capitals) usually doesn't make sense anyway, but in order to even qualify you have to have the numbers both relative and absolute.
The city that comes to mind is Amsterdam, not Groningen.

Silly argument anyway...


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

Mr_Denmark said:


> Ehmm... just curious how 219 km² became 100 km² ???


Look at a map of municipal Amsterdam.
A large chunk of it is water. And I don't mean the canals, etc. And there is a large port area, where no people live. And lots of undeveloped land on the north and west sides. I'm not talking parks, etc but empty land. These areas should not be counted when calculating densities. I'll see if I can find a map, haven't been able to so far.

EDIT- found a map, I highlighted Amsterdam municipality in blue.













> Copenhagen municipal has lots of water, canals and greenspaces too - should we deduct that too - or just keep to the official numbers?


Yes, but only the undeveloped land and open water. Just like we should deduct the forest and the international airport that are part of the city of Madrid. 





> About urban area Copenhagen's is way bigger than 1.2mil


Wikepedia claims otherwise and I believe you (and others) claimed 1,2 million also earlier in this thread. Anyway it doesn't matter. Amsterdam metro is 2,2/2,5 million on an smaller area than metro Copenhagen 1,8 million.
just because there are green buffers between Amsterdam and its suburbs doesn't mean that Copenhagen is larger.





> Once again I fully accept that once you start including nearby cities Amsterdam takes off do to the huge population in the Netherlands compared Denmark...


Those nearby "cities" are suburbs, totally dependent on Amsterdam and should be counted just like Copenhagen suburbs should be counted. If you do not agree with this you either have double standards or agree that Amsterdam indeed is larger 740,000 vs 503,000.
The only city that can be viewed as independent is Haarlem, it's a satelite city not a suburb, but even without it Amsterdam still is larger.





> But between these two cities alone... both size and desity is still pretty clear to me...


And I'm still puzzled how you still keep coming to this wrong conclusion.
Amsterdam city 740,000 vs Copenhagen city 503,000 --> Amsterdam is larger.
Amsterdam metro 2,2/2,5 million vs Copenhagen metro 1,8 million --> Amsterdam is larger.
I don't see how you can conclude any other way?

About the densities. It should be pretty close. Copenhagen municipality is more dense than Amsterdam municipality. In terms of build up area, Amsterdam is more dense.


----------



## hix (Jun 11, 2006)

Size is of no importance when you want to assign the title of (something)-capital of the world. Beer capital, cheese capital, sailboat-capital... it only means that a certain city is so important for a certain subject that you can give it that inofficial title. It can be a village of 100 people...or a metropolis of 10 million... Your discussion about the size of Amsterdam and Copenhagen has therefore nothing to do with this thread. The claim of eusebius that Amsterdam is not a real capital has no meaning at all. We are not looking for a real capital at all, but the question is, wich city is the most important bike city? Off course the answer will always remain subjective...


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

To me it doesn't matter which city is bicycle capital, but I am interested in population figures and size of cities (the subject of this forum among other city related subjects).
So if I see something inaccurate, I try to correct it. It's more important and on topic than discussing which city is "bicycle capital" in any case.
People might actually learn something as long as it doesn't turn into "versus" crap (which I don't think it has in this case).


----------



## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

^^
Did you read the topic title "Amsterdam: Bicycling capital of the World?", how can population figures be more on topic then a (IMO useless) discussion about which city has more right to be called "Bicycling capital of the World", Amsterdam, Copenhagen or any other city. And it doesn't really matter how big the city is, just as hix explained.


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

If you think it is a useless discussion (as do I) then what are you doing posting here.
Your post absolutely adds nothing.
At least the whole population discussion actually has something to do with cities and people might learn something.


----------



## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Useless but interesting!

And if you want a population discussion, start you own thread!


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

No I wont.
It is in this thread that the question was raised, so Mr D and I and a few others are having a friendly discussion about it.
Now kindly mind your own business...


----------



## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Then you shouldn't be so stupid to say in this specific thread that it's more on-topic to talk about population size then about bicycling. You can expect other people to react in the way I did, or that hix wants to try to get the thread back on topic. It's a public forum and everybody has a right to respond to any of your posts.


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

EDIT-

nevermind, haven't got time for this.

:|


----------



## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

ORiHS said:


> No because you also have to take into account the number of bikes relative to other forms of traffic. There might be millions of bikes in Beijing, but the bike is (no longer) queen of the streets there like it is in Amsterdam. There isn't any real biking infrastructure either in the form of dedicated paths, traffic light, parking etc.


Actually, ORiHS (!), that is quite wrong. Beijing, Shanghai and all other major Chinese cities I have visited sure has dedicated bike lanes (actually, there are tall fences to devide them from auto traffic), as well as huge bicycle parkings across the cities.

I agree though, that the bicycle isn't the "queen" in Beijing anymore - it definitely is (together with scooters) in Shanghai though, in my opinion.


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

ORiHS said:


> EDIT- found a map, I highlighted Amsterdam municipality in blue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not the best one of the Copenhagen|Frederiksberg municipals - but it does show the empty areas.. 









All the coloured lines are "green bike patchs" a kind of bike freeway where you bike trough green areas and don't have to worry about cars or crossing traffic...


Anyway if you would look down the left righ corner you will see Amager Fælled 

It's a huge old artillery range/landfill that is first now begin to see construction...


















Other than that there is also the habour and Utterslev mose

That 221 Hectars right there...









And the old defensed "The Lakes" ( Søerne )

















And all the parks.. some quite desent in size...


Oops sorry for all the large pictures


----------



## AM Putra (Dec 24, 2006)

Europe country is very concern with bicycle lane.


----------



## jmancuso (Jan 9, 2003)

mr_denmark, give me a round trip flight to CPH to let me get a first hand look to decide whether or not population density compares to amsterdam. oh, and bring me one of those red tins of royal dansk cookies too.

oh, and houston has bike lanes too on just about every street but people who value their lives never use them becuase motorists like to drive in them.


----------



## nabob (Jun 7, 2006)

ORiHS said:


> No because you also have to take into account the number of bikes relative to other forms of traffic. There might be millions of bikes in Beijing, but the bike is (no longer) queen of the streets there like it is in Amsterdam. There isn't any real biking infrastructure either in the form of dedicated paths, traffic light, parking etc. If anything, Chinese cities are becoming more car dependent every day.
> Groningen might be the most bike friendly city in the Netherlands/Europe, have the most bikes and biking kilometers per capita, I wouldn't call it the capital because it is simply too small.
> Besides, there is bound to be a smaller town somewhere which has even more bikes/biking kilometers per capita. Should we call that town the capital then?
> "Capital" of anything (other than official capitals) usually doesn't make sense anyway, but in order to even qualify you have to have the numbers both relative and absolute.
> ...


The problem with your argument (the relative and absolute importantce of the bicycle) is that there will remain only two cities in world that can claim this so called title of bicycle capital. And it's, at least for the relative figures, clear that Amsterdam would be the the first. But I think it is too easy to ignore other Dutch and Danish cities. Which cities are, in your opinion big enough and which cities are not? And besides that, Groningen is not that small and tiny. It is still a real city where people go for work, shopping and school. It's boundaries do not stop at the end of a university campus. So there' s not only bicycling by students. It's the same with Utrecht for example. 
In an absolute sense Amsterdam would be the bicycle capital but then this thread would end in a very trivial discussion. I mean, you take only
those arguments into account that can only lead to the city of...
Amsterdam!!
But still, the bicycle usage in Amsterdam is even a little lower than the Dutch average. :lol: 
('Beijing' was ironical by the way)


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

jmancuso said:


> mr_denmark, give me a round trip flight to CPH to let me get a first hand look to decide whether or not population density compares to amsterdam. oh, and bring me one of those red tins of royal dansk cookies too.


Yes Master!









( You finally got the cookie tin colour right! That alone is almost worth the ticket!  )


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

staff said:


> Actually, ORiHS (!), that is quite wrong. Beijing, Shanghai and all other major Chinese cities I have visited sure has dedicated bike lanes (actually, there are tall fences to devide them from auto traffic), as well as huge bicycle parkings across the cities.
> 
> I agree though, that the bicycle isn't the "queen" in Beijing anymore - it definitely is (together with scooters) in Shanghai though, in my opinion.


OK I stand corrected.
Serves me right commenting about a place I never been...

I of course saw pictures and videos of Beijing and though I know what you mean by totally seperated forms of traffic, I never saw the bike lanes how we know them to be in Europe (the blue or the red paths mostly next to the car lanes).


----------



## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

ORiHS said:


> I of course saw pictures and videos of Beijing and though I know what you mean by totally seperated forms of traffic, I never saw the bike lanes how we know them to be in Europe (the blue or the red paths mostly next to the car lanes).


Nah, they're never painted in a different colour here - just diveded from car traffic by a high fence, or there's even a small sidewalk in between the street and the bicycle lane. 
If I find some pics I will post them.


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

I pointed out Amsterdam is not a capital after the numbers for the entire Netherlands were posted. Because that was what a few people clung to. In Amsterdam, people will only jump on their bikes when there are tourists with cameras down their street.


----------



## redbaron_012 (Sep 19, 2004)

OK...I left me bike here thismorning in this quiet little spot all on its own ?????


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

^^
Why do dutch bikes have to be that ugly? This is from the netherlands right?


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

Netherlands' police consider bike theft low priority, is why.


----------



## Bibelo (Oct 15, 2002)

^^yep, and everybody has an average of 2,5 bikes per person or so. Also 1/5th of all bikes in Amsterdam get stolen every year, so why have a good looking, expensive bike? 
The general relationship between a Dutchman/woman and his/her bike is a functional one, not an aesthetic one. You use your bike (in the city) when you go shopping, visit your friends (and carry them on your luggage stand (bagagedrager?), go to work. So it must be strong and simple; goodlooking comes in second place.


----------



## Ramses (Jun 17, 2005)

..


----------



## Ramses (Jun 17, 2005)

..


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

Here's are some pdh files about the Copenhagen cykling policy:

http://www.vejpark2.kk.dk/publikationer/pdf/413_cykelpolitik_uk.pdf

http://www.vejpark2.kk.dk/publikationer/pdf/412_cykelregnskab2004_UK.pdf

...From this page


----------



## redbaron_012 (Sep 19, 2004)

Yes, Amsterdam...I am from Melbourne, Australia and was amazed to see all these bikes outside the main Railway Station in Amsterdam !!! Do you find your own when its time to go home or just take the next bike each day....??? As for over here we have built heaps of bike tracks and made bike lanes on most roads other than freeways but they often conflict with cars....I think it is too late for Australia....Europe has evolved with the pushbike, we are only now trying to get people to ride them..most kids used to ride till they brought in helmet rules so now lots of kids wont ride because they don't think the helmets are cool.....????? Then there are the Lycra racers who get alot of bad press when they collide with a pedestrian at high speed.


----------



## atom (Dec 13, 2003)

Ramses said:


> Beautiful bikes get stolen. Crap bikes are not very attractive for thieves.


Totally True  2nd hand bike also good.


----------



## atom (Dec 13, 2003)

Ramses said:


> Beautiful bikes get stolen. Crap bikes are not very attractive for thieves.


Deleted


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

EDIT :doh: ( double post )


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Copenhagen's City Bikes - free "rental" bikes - fresh from the cam  


You insert a 20 DKK coin to get the bike and when you return it to the dock you get your coin back..


----------



## hix (Jun 11, 2006)

How long can you keep them? In Brussels we have something similar, but it's not free! It coasts 1 euro per hour.


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

hix said:


> How long can you keep them?


In theory indefinatly - but the "season" ends in the late fall... and the meaning with them would be that you only use them for a few hours and then return them to some random docking station...

There's plenty of them around, so it's not a problem to find a new one the next day...


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

Love the 100 new Adidas bikes...had a ride on one today (where's the pic from? Axeltorv?)


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

Now, thàt's an Amsterdam concept, bikes for borrowing. The 'witte fietsenplan' dating back to 1965! I guess that with a little effort, you Danes understand this:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witte_fiets


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Oelanddk said:


> where's the pic from? Axeltorv?


Right next to Palads...


----------



## JaakkoSuomi (May 3, 2007)

I really encourage bike use! It is not a very pleasant experience trying to ride to school with all parents dropping off their children in cars in the big school rush. I am glad to see that bike riding has not become an ancient thing in countries like Denmark and the Netherlands though. In Finland, it is a bit of both. Some do, some don't. Hopefully in the future, it is "most do", not just in Finland but in most countries. People have to realise the great experience of bike riding.


----------



## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

eusebius said:


> There simply isn't that much bike traffic going beyond the 'grachtengordel' of Amsterdam. I seem to be the only person from Amsterdam on this thread. I've seen too many reports denying the fact that people in the NL cycle more than those in DK.


People do cycle a lot beyond the historic "grachtengordel". I have friends who live in the suburbs (Bijlmer, Ijburg, Osdorp) and they go everywhere by byking.
Bike traffic is perhaps more visible in the old city core, because the streets are narrow there and the traffic seems more concentrated, but it doesn't mean that there isn't much bike traffic going outside of that area.


----------



## hix (Jun 11, 2006)

These are the Brussels rent-a-bike:


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

^^
Looks good...what's the price for a ride?


----------



## hix (Jun 11, 2006)

Oelanddk said:


> ^^
> Looks good...what's the price for a ride?


1 euro per hour, i think that's quite expensive. It should be free like in Denmark.


----------



## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

AMS guy said:


> People do cycle a lot beyond the historic "grachtengordel". I have friends who live in the suburbs (Bijlmer, Ijburg, Osdorp) and they go everywhere by byking.
> Bike traffic is perhaps more visible in the old city core, because the streets are narrow there and the traffic seems more concentrated, but it doesn't mean that there isn't much bike traffic going outside of that area.


Actually, they don't! I'm from Amsterdam myself and many members of my family and friends still live there. To be honest with you, many Amsterdam bikers are just wimps.


----------



## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

^^ I've been living here for 15 years, but if you know better, it's ok with me.


----------



## hix (Jun 11, 2006)

Eusebius knows everything better.:applause:


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

hix said:


> 1 euro per hour, i think that's quite expensive. It should be free like in Denmark.


Maybe, but the bikes surely looks better then the ones in CPH


----------



## hix (Jun 11, 2006)

Are people respecting the bikes? In Belgium when something is free, people don't respect the material. A couple of years ago they tested a system where you could get free bikes at the major train and subway stations in Brussels. It was not a succes. The bikes where degrading rapidly and it was to expensive to repair them all the time.


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

Many of the frre-bikes here in CPH get stolen and never return to one of the docks...every year they have to buy new ones, but the sponsor money is a great help there...adidas had to pay ~20.000€ for getting their name on 100 bikes and there are 2000 bikes in whole Copenhagen, so I don't think that the city loss money on it...


----------



## hix (Jun 11, 2006)

The city-council of Brussels didn't want any publicity on the bikes. They said there's allready enough pub-pollution. I think I will visit Copenhagen soon to test the free bikes and the new metrosystem. How's the weather at the moment?


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

hix said:


> I think I will visit Copenhagen soon to test the free bikes and the new metrosystem. How's the weather at the moment?


Sunny like hell - like it has been for months now :happy:

Expect it to be around ~ 2-3C under Amsterdam temps...


----------



## sydney_lad (Dec 6, 2005)

^^^^

They're thinking of implimenting those free rental bikes in Sydney too....

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=256968

*Sydney could get free ride with rent-a-bike proposal*

Sydney is taking a hint from Europe and considering a massive project that could link the CBD transport grid with a network of free bicycle-borrowing stations. 

The ambitious eco-friendly proposal — similar to the one recently approved for construction in Paris — would cut traffic, combat global warming and perhaps even save the city's lackluster public transport system. 

"We're aiming to increase cycling by 500 percent, and make it an acceptable and normal mode of transport that people would consider in the inner city," said Josh MacKenzie of the Sydney City Council. 




"The bicycle renting and borrowing program in Paris is something that we are looking at." 

Outdoor advertising conglomerate JCDecaux is behind the Paris scheme, which will launch on July 15 as the largest bicycle rental network in the world. 

"There's a very high level of interest (in Sydney), and that interest is now being converted into action," said Steve O'Connor, CEO of JCDecaux Australia. 

How does the system work? In Paris, thousands of rental bikes will be available for use at hundreds of high-tech bicycle stations located in key parts of the city. A user will be able to rent a bike at a small fee, and then ride it to any other station in the city and drop it off. 

Like the Paris venture, JCDecaux's Sydney proposal is aimed at the budget commuter. 

"The first hour is free of charge, and there's a charge after that hour. As a consequence of that pricing structure most rides end up being free," O'Connor explained. 

The company expects to make the bulk of their money by selling billboard-style advertising at the various cycling stations. 

As a way of warding off potential thieves, bicycle-renters will be required to swipe their credit card or leave a refundable deposit at the station. 

The bikes themselves will be outfitted with a cutting-edge self diagnostic system that will alert bicycle station workers to any damage or vandalism encountered during the rental. 

O'Connor said that connecting the Circular Quay ferry port with other parts of the CBD by bicycle routes is one of the company's initiatives. 

"[The network] should form part of an integrated transport plan," O'Connor said. "The groups that tend to use the bikes more are executives and students, so clearly you need bike stations where these people congregate." 

Melbourne city council is also being approached by JCDecaux, but O'Connor said the negotiations in Victoria are "not as far down the track" as they are in New South Wales.

If everything is to go as planned, O'Connor speculates that a bicycle network for Sydney could be only 18 months away. 

"It's healthy, it combats a lot of obesity issues that are being discussed at the moment," he said. "This is clearly an initiative that will reduce carbon emissions." 

"The general climate is right for it." 

The push for the rent-a-bicycle network comes as an innovative plan to build up to 55 kilometres of separated cycle lanes in Sydney is passed by the city council's Planning Development and Transport Committee. 

"The reason people are not cycling in Sydney is because they don't feel safe riding on shoulder lanes near cars, and that there's too much traffic in the city," said council spokesman Josh MacKenzie. 

"So if we can provide more cycle lanes and more safe cycling options for people then more people are going to bicycling." 

After being approved by the committee last night, the cycle-lane proposal will go before a full meeting of Council on Monday 2 April.


----------



## Wuppeltje (Jan 23, 2008)

FREKI said:


> As Øland showed last page Copenhagen was awarded by the UCI ( International Cycling Union ) to be the first *Bike City* in the world - something I doubt was without reason..


The UCI is an organisation for all kinds of professional sport cycling. Considering that Copenhagen has several large sport cycle events, and many others don't it is not strange that Copenhagen is the first *UCI* Bike City in the world.


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Number of trips done by bicycle:








source


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

Nice stats. I actually thought Münster would be higher than Copenhagen. Heard there should be crazy many bikes there.


----------



## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

^I wonder why the stats differ by 7% for what DST/CPH municipal reports and why no Danish statistic sites are used at source... :dunno:


----------



## Wuppeltje (Jan 23, 2008)

The following Danish source has been used for the cities: Andersen, T. (2005) Odense: The National Cycle City of Denmark. 

You can play with numbers. For example these numbers are based on the total amount of trips of each type of transport (including walking). Leave walking out of it and you get a different number. Say daily commute and the percentages are different. Leave a group out, and it is different. They can all be true, but they can also be very deceptive.


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Yes, you can present stats any way you want them to be presented, and can be misleading....


----------



## xlchris (Jun 23, 2006)

Groningen: bicycling capital of the world 


refluS said:


>


----------



## cphdude (Apr 18, 2004)

Wuppeltje said:


> The UCI is an organisation for all kinds of professional sport cycling. Considering that Copenhagen has several large sport cycle events, and many others don't it is not strange that Copenhagen is the first *UCI* Bike City in the world.


Actually the events came with the awards. Before the awards, there were no great cycling events in Copenhagen...


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 17, 2004)

Thanks for the stats. I was actually expecting to see Leiden as No.1


----------



## MarkusErikssen (Oct 4, 2005)

That video is so funny!


----------



## Maarten (Nov 28, 2004)

cphdude said:


> Actually the events came with the awards. Before the awards, there were no great cycling events in Copenhagen...


Idd, the only cycling history in Copenhagen is a track stadium.

In a couple of years the world championships will be in Copenhagen, on one of the most boring circuits ever.hno:


----------



## error98 (Mar 11, 2009)

Dieren is the capital actually. Dieren is home to the fabulous Gazelle Bicycle factory. Dieren über alles in der Fahrradwelt ; Best place with cycle paths in the world. People in Amsterdam are too lazy to actually walk. Amsterdam is only a few square kilometres wide. Amsterdam is a huge village.


----------



## Paddington (Mar 30, 2006)

Don't you hate getting to your destination all hot and sweaty though, with your hair wet? hno:


----------



## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

SimsPlanet2 said:


> That video is so funny!


lol yeah.its great too. the weird thing is people dont talk to each other. if that was here, and people in bikes waiting, people would start chatting, and would even block the hole system, cause no one would move even when the light turned green. 

that system is not that expensive to be done. they just painted some portions of the street in some areas. the issue here is that streets are small. but we use roundabouts instead of crossroads, so it is better. Its a good video, that gave me a good idea!!!!! 

awesome video!!!


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

Paddington said:


> Don't you hate getting to your destination all hot and sweaty though, with your hair wet? hno:


It's not a tour de france - it's just transportation...



PedroGabriel said:


> lol yeah.its great too. the weird thing is people dont talk to each other. if that was here, and people in bikes waiting, people would start chatting, and would even block the hole system, cause no one would move even when the light turned green.


Guess it's siesta 24/7 in Portugal :jk:



PedroGabriel said:


> that system is not that expensive to be done. they just painted some portions of the street in some areas. the issue here is that streets are small. but we use roundabouts instead of crossroads, so it is better. Its a good video, that gave me a good idea!!!!!
> 
> awesome video!!!


Narrow streets are probably the biggest problem when it comes to bike lanes. Roundabouts pretty much just makes it easier implement.


----------



## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

ØlandDK said:


> Guess it's siesta 24/7 in Portugal :jk:


siesta time is just for some people. it's not a fair society. ehehe



ØlandDK said:


> Narrow streets are probably the biggest problem when it comes to bike lanes. Roundabouts pretty much just makes it easier implement.


not quite. the city hall wants some more streets for pedestrians, my idea is closing the smaller ones, and those would include a bicycle lane in the middle, when the way reaches a larger street, they just need to paint it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

ØlandDK said:


> It's not a tour de france - it's just transportation...


He has a point though. Cycling into 5 - 6 bft is already not really pleasant anymore.



> Narrow streets are probably the biggest problem when it comes to bike lanes. Roundabouts pretty much just makes it easier implement.


And a grid-layout like in many US and other cities. Cycling is not really attractive when you have to stop or slow every block.


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

ChrisZwolle said:


> He has a point though. Cycling into 5 - 6 *bft* is already not really pleasant anymore.


bft?


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Beaufort...

Wind force scale. You don't know that? I thought it was a common measure


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

I think that you normally meassure it in m/sec. here... :shifty:


----------



## Koen Acacia (Apr 17, 2007)

Paddington said:


> Don't you hate getting to your destination all hot and sweaty though, with your hair wet? hno:


Most of the time rain is a bigger problem than high temperatures really. 10 Months out of 12, it would take quite a bit of effort to get "hot and sweaty" from riding a bike.


----------



## dösanhoro (Jun 24, 2006)

Paddington said:


> Don't you hate getting to your destination all hot and sweaty though, with your hair wet? hno:


How long do people ride at all? I think a lot of the trips are not long. I think the biggest problem with this is the bikes itself a big percentage of people ride. Amsterdam and the various similar places are good but others not so. Some places are a lot worse.

People ride bikes which don't fit them. Some bikes were never really properly adjusted in the first place. Extremely low pressures in the tires. Worn out tires which get flats easily from the smallest piece of glass . Rusty chains. Years of neglegt with the brakes. Sometimes the entry level 'full suspension' which most people don't really need anyway eats away the efficiency even further. Bad saddles. Cheap bikes are really heavy too. The combination is something which many people into bikes would not touch with a 10 m pole. 

A extremely wrong size bike can really wear down endurance athletes after a hour or two.

I think the mountain bike fashion and the one size fits all bikes have had their effect. Ok maybe not all bikes have all these issues at the same time. Yet far too many people try such sadomasochistic 'bicycles' once and loudly proclaim they don't like bikes , when they have not once in their life tried a fitting bike in good working order.


----------



## amidcars (Mar 26, 2009)

I have been in many cities in many countries in different parts of the world. (Denmark included) And never have I seen a city where the bike is so much the queen of the street as in Amsterdam. There are a lot of cyclists in Denmark, much more than in Belgium or Germany... but it's not beating Holland. I'm sorry I don't have facts to back up my claim. Anyway Denmark is a very strong second place.


----------



## Mr_Dru (Dec 15, 2008)

dösanhoro said:


> How long do people ride at all? I think a lot of the trips are not long.


It depence. Like highschoolstudents between 13-17 years old, living in the rural areas and have to cycle to a highschool in an nearby city. The distance to cycle could be 15km or more.

Then you have people who living in the suburbs. Most suburbs are connected with the byciclenetwork to the citycentres or trainstations. The distance could be between 6-10km. 

The semi-electricbike is gaining popularity for longdistance cyclist


----------



## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

Anybody got some links to Dutch bike brands?


----------



## Wuppeltje (Jan 23, 2008)

http://www.batavus.com/
http://www.sparta.nl/
http://www.koga.com/uk/
http://www.gazelle.nl/nl/
http://www.union.nl/
http://www.defietsfabriek.nl/


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Mr_Dru said:


> The semi-electricbike is gaining popularity for longdistance cyclist


My grandparents have such semi-electric bikes. They don't have a car, and they can still get around without being exhausted after 1km.


----------



## andrelot (Aug 6, 2008)

Well, I'm Italian (where cycling is risky and dangerous) and recently moved to The Netherlands. What I could find is that not only cities are organized to support cycling as a mean of transportation but also the flat terrain helps it a lot.

However, there's three major downsides. First, the makeup and dress-style level of Dutch girls (and man for that purpose) is far, far below Italian or French ones, which is really sad. People dress in a extremely casual fashion, wich is good for biking, though I just don't like the final result (senior officers arriving in Univeristy Rector's office hall in cargo pants and with backpacks, for instance). Women just don't pull up a lot of makeup to work even in bank offices, for sake! Second, you lose a lot of time if you don't have a car and need to bike to supermarkets. Even with a large side-bag AND a front bag (which makes the bike unstable anyway), you could never buy stuff in bulk for, say, 2 weeks, like you had a car - even a small one. Third, with some exceptions trams, light rail and even buses systems have limites coverage only - they assume people will regularly bike to/from train stations.

So, I really don't like the idea of biking as mean of transportation. Never liked it before, and now I'm not happy to see the results of its implementation in large scale. It's a romantic idea not suitable with modern life standards.


----------



## Mscraper89 (Feb 14, 2008)

andrelot said:


> Well, I'm Italian (where cycling is risky and dangerous) and recently moved to The Netherlands. What I could find is that not only cities are organized to support cycling as a mean of transportation but also the flat terrain helps it a lot.
> 
> However, there's three major downsides. First, the makeup and dress-style level of Dutch girls (and man for that purpose) is far, far below Italian or French ones, which is really sad. People dress in a extremely casual fashion, wich is good for biking, though I just don't like the final result (senior officers arriving in Univeristy Rector's office hall in cargo pants and with backpacks, for instance). Women just don't pull up a lot of makeup to work even in bank offices, for sake! Second, you lose a lot of time if you don't have a car and need to bike to supermarkets. Even with a large side-bag AND a front bag (which makes the bike unstable anyway), you could never buy stuff in bulk for, say, 2 weeks, like you had a car - even a small one. Third, with some exceptions trams, light rail and even buses systems have limites coverage only - they assume people will regularly bike to/from train stations.
> 
> So, I really don't like the idea of biking as mean of transportation. Never liked it before, and now I'm not happy to see the results of its implementation in large scale. It's a romantic idea not suitable with modern life standards.


Holland is just one of a kind, and I think we are far ahead of any other countries, so I completely dissagree. 

The fact that people don't want to ride a bike to go to their work or to school has ruined our planet and our own health. Dutch people and children are the most happy people on earth according to some researches and I am convinced that the bike has a part in this. 

You also mus not forget that crime-safety plays a big role in this, I bet in many italian cities it is not even safe enough to cycle back home in the midle of the night after a party or night out; in our country it is safe!


----------



## andrelot (Aug 6, 2008)

I'm not questioning safety, which is higher in Northern Europe for a variety of reasons, and I'm not saying I don't like the country (otherwise, I'd not have moved here).

Happiness is something I don't think the state (aka, public policies) should aim at. It is hard to measure, very relative (give a s*** house to a (former) homeless and she/he will be the happiest person on Earth for a while, same for offering a banquet for someone who was on the brink of death by starvation).

Topography plays a role, also. For obvious reasons, 90% of Dutch lands are completely flat! In Italy, this is not the case for most of the country.

What I (really) don't like are the side effects of large-scale biking: car parks are expensive, and to the extent of my knowledge politicians are afraid of giving green light to big, massive comercial complexes and shopping malls. The supermarkets here are expensive and have a smaller assortment than big Carrefours you could find in France. Even the "XL"-sized supermarkets here don't have an electronics section, they're rather small. So far, I've never been in any shopping mall here with more than 400 stores, if such one ever existis.

Anyway, I cope, as I moved and knew life here would be like that. Following year I'm planning to rent a house in a medium nearby city (32 km) and commute by car to University every day. It will bit a chunk of my budget, but ok.


----------



## Ni3lS (Jun 29, 2007)

andrelot said:


> I'm not questioning safety, which is higher in Northern Europe for a variety of reasons, and I'm not saying I don't like the country (otherwise, I'd not have moved here).
> 
> Happiness is something I don't think the state (aka, public policies) should aim at. It is hard to measure, very relative (give a s*** house to a (former) homeless and she/he will be the happiest person on Earth for a while, same for offering a banquet for someone who was on the brink of death by starvation).
> 
> ...


I don't really get what Dutch girls/women and their make up have to do with cycling in Holland?


----------



## Anderson Geimz (Mar 29, 2008)

andrelot said:


> Even the "XL"-sized supermarkets here don't have an electronics section, they're rather small.


Off course they don't. We have electronics stores for that, don't we?


----------



## dutchmaster (May 23, 2007)

As most here, i'm totally disagree what andrelot said..

It's ridicolous prefer cars as main transportation than bikes. As we know earth it's getting weak every day and one of the big reasons for that is the insane pollution caused by cars. And it's not only this, look how many cars accident kill thousands of people each year worldwide. Unfortunatly, mainly of countries seems not care about ciclism structure in the cities, what's a shame. 

Netherlands could be use as example for others countries. Imagine if the US would follow countries as Denmark and The Netherlands in therms of transportation, using bikes..

For things like that i'm in love with Netherlands!!


----------



## Mr_Dru (Dec 15, 2008)

Roadwatch for cyclist.
Beside the excellent Dutch cycle infrastructure, It's convinient that almost every city or municipality has a mobile cycle-repair-vehicle. 

Especially for elderly people and tour cyclist it's very handy.


----------



## dutchmaster (May 23, 2007)

^ Good opportunity to make some money..


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Anderson Geimz said:


> Off course they don't. We have electronics stores for that, don't we?


Yeah, but I don't like paying € 2 ($ 3) for just picking up a keyboard because all damn electronic stores are around the city center (= parking fees). With a nice XL supermarket, that would be much easier, plus you don't need to get to the city center with your car.



dutchmaster said:


> It's ridicolous prefer cars as main transportation than bikes.


Why would that be ridiculous? It's reality, but as usual it ends up in a reality vs ideology discussion. Cars are still the majority of the travel in Dutch cities. That won't change. 



> As we know earth it's getting weak every day and one of the big reasons for that is the insane pollution caused by cars.


The "insane pollution" is mostly history. Yeah, the 70's had bad air quality, while nowadays the air quality is much better, even with millions cars more on the road. Stage One smog alert was issued over a hundred times a year in Los Angeles in the 70's, while they issue it only one or two times a year these days, while the metropolitan area easily doubled in size, also doubling the amount of traffic. Let's not exaggerate the pollution problem, air quality is better than it ever was since industrialization. 



> And it's not only this, look how many cars accident kill thousands of people each year worldwide. Unfortunatly, mainly of countries seems not care about ciclism structure in the cities, what's a shame.


One of the most dangerous forms of transportation is cycling. Many more people get killed every 1 billion kilometers in cycling than cars, trains, buses or airplanes. 



> Netherlands could be use as example for others countries. Imagine if the US would follow countries as Denmark and The Netherlands in therms of transportation, using bikes..


Can't disagree with that though. Cycling is great, but it's use shouldn't be overestimated. It's too much to expect a significant cycling share in the 5+ km range. Denmark's cycling infrastructure is still far behind the Dutch one though. Germany is picking up on cycling too, but it has, like Belgium, a significant backlog on the Netherlands.

However, the U.S. will never see a high cycling share. It's topography is different, many booming areas in terms of population are in either hot humid or hot desert areas (CA, NV, UT, AZ, TX, GA, FL, NC etc), which are not favorable for cycling, not to mention the size of those cities.


----------



## woutero (Jan 14, 2008)

@Andrelot and @Chris: 
When the scale of retail gets bigger, the average trip length of shopping gets bigger. This means that it is less convenient for people to bike or walk to the store. Which means that you have to drive to all of these places. Which means that large parking lots are needed. Which drives retail to places with more space and lower land cost. Which means cycling and walkling gets even less attractive, less safe, etc. Thus starting a trend/cycle of development that most people in The Netherlands see as negative.

It is political, but that means it is what people want.

I have lived in the US and in NL, and for me, walking 2 minutes to a small supermarket with everything you need, on a street with all kinds of other shops (I have a choice of where I buy my meat and vegetables) is much more attractive and easier than driving for 10 minutes to a gigantic store that has killed street life, and makes the time you spend in the store about 10 times as long.

Chris, I know that you favor cars over other modes of transport. And I understand your arguments when you have to fight over budget against public transport. But come on, cycling is low cost, no pollution, takes up almost no space, serves a purpose exactly where it is needed most: dense urban areas. And safety? Yes, maybe not as safe when compared on a per (billion) KM scale, but I hope you see the irony in this as well. How about accidents per trip? Moreover, cycling only gets safer when more people cycle. And cyclists hardly ever get hurt by other cyclists. For the accidents we do need cars.


----------



## lawine (Jul 24, 2006)

woutero said:


> I have lived in the US and in NL, and for me, walking 2 minutes to a small supermarket with everything you need, on a street with all kinds of other shops (I have a choice of where I buy my meat and vegetables) is much more attractive and easier than driving for 10 minutes to a gigantic store that has killed street life, and makes the time you spend in the store about 10 times as long.


Quoted for truth.


----------



## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

ChrisZwolle wants the whole world to be car dependent as the US in major cities.


----------



## xlchris (Jun 23, 2006)

According to a Virgin Vacations (US holiday company) survey Amsterdam is the most bike friendly city in the world. Followed by Portland (US) as #2 and Copenhagen as #3.

Source


----------



## xlchris (Jun 23, 2006)

A nice movie goes with it 






With some (probably) known facts.
- Own bicycle paths & signs
- Pass for a test on a certain age to get a license 
- Every kid has a bicycle and learnes to drive it


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Nah, probably a selection of major cities, just like those quality of life indexes. 

There are a lot of Dutch cities which are more bicycle-friendly than Amsterdam. It probably doesn't sound cool if Leiden or Groningen would be the most bicycle-friendly city, because people have never heard of those cities outside our region.


----------



## julesstoop (Sep 11, 2002)

I actually edited Amsterdam's Wikipedia page in the transport section for this reason. It used to spell:
"Amsterdam is one of the most bicycle-friendly cities in the world..."
Which I changed to:
"Amsterdam is one of the most bicycle-friendly large cities in the world..."


----------



## Anderson Geimz (Mar 29, 2008)

xlchris said:


> - Pass for a test on a certain age to get a license


Since when do you need a license to ride a bike? :dunno:


----------



## Fuzzy Llama (Jan 24, 2009)

^^
In Poland, for example, kids aged 10 - 18 need a bike (or a moped) license (however the possibility that you will be stopped and checked is almost zero). I've always thought that similar rule applies in majority of European countries...


----------



## Mr_Dru (Dec 15, 2008)

Fuzzy Llama said:


> ^^
> In Poland, for example, kids aged 10 - 18 need a bike (or a moped) license (however the possibility that you will be stopped and checked is almost zero). I've always thought that similar rule applies in majority of European countries...


In the Netherlands childrens get cycle lessons at elemantaryschools. There is a practical and theorical exam. With the practical exam children needs to do sum manouvres and cycle 3-5 km around in the city/village. The theorical exams consist the traficregulations for cyclist.



























For the moped or scooters, from the age of 16 a licence is needed. Only a theorical exam.


----------



## Newropean (Jan 15, 2010)

andrelot said:


> Well, I'm Italian (where cycling is risky and dangerous) and recently moved to The Netherlands. What I could find is that not only cities are organized to support cycling as a mean of transportation but also the flat terrain helps it a lot.
> 
> However, there's three major downsides. First, the makeup and dress-style level of Dutch girls (and man for that purpose) is far, far below Italian or French ones, which is really sad. People dress in a extremely casual fashion, wich is good for biking, though I just don't like the final result (senior officers arriving in Univeristy Rector's office hall in cargo pants and with backpacks, for instance). Women just don't pull up a lot of makeup to work even in bank offices, for sake! Second, you lose a lot of time if you don't have a car and need to bike to supermarkets. Even with a large side-bag AND a front bag (which makes the bike unstable anyway), you could never buy stuff in bulk for, say, 2 weeks, like you had a car - even a small one. Third, with some exceptions trams, light rail and even buses systems have limites coverage only - they assume people will regularly bike to/from train stations.
> 
> So, I really don't like the idea of biking as mean of transportation. Never liked it before, and now I'm not happy to see the results of its implementation in large scale. It's a romantic idea not suitable with modern life standards.


Never mind that he's banned - here it goes.
I couldn't disagree more with this. I found that in many Italian cities in the (extremely flat, dutch-style) Po Valley in Norther Italy, people were as likely to use bikes as in the Netherlands, no matter how stylish their clothes were. I meant especially Padova. This is not to say that it is better for cycling than Amsterdam, far from it - but generalizing a whole country like this (and wrongly!) drew my ire.


----------



## chrisnyce (Nov 10, 2009)

i love bicycling. i used to be a messenger in new york city. when i visited amsterdam it was a bicyclers paradise. although mountain bikes with multiple gears aren't so common I was fine with the upright, cruising style of bike i rented. the dutch are so courteous to bikes. such a breath of fresh air coming from the streets of new york.

it was so romantic. i was at the rokery coffeeshop. my bike locked up outside. i met the bartender. she was a hot hot hot girl from surinam. we talked. she asked if i had a bicycle. i said i rented one for the week. we rode to her house together and spent the rest of my vacation together. it was the best!


----------



## snowman159 (May 16, 2008)

Mr_Dru said:


> For the moped or scooters, from the age of 16 a licence is needed. Only a theorical exam.


Are there no helmet laws in the NL or don't they apply to low-powered motorcycles?


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

snowman159 said:


> Are there no helmet laws in the NL or don't they apply to low-powered motorcycles?


Yes, they all ought to wear helmets on mopeds, scooters or whatever you want to call them.

Cyclists do not need to wear helmets, and if they should, it's something the police can't enforce. You can always pick out those German tourists because they're the only ones that wear helmets :lol:


----------



## Anderson Geimz (Mar 29, 2008)

Again no! Lowpowered mopeds (snorfietsen, <25 kph) do not require helmets.

Why are my compatriots telling such nonsense about bike licenses and helmets on "all" mopeds?


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

All mopeds/scooter drivers on that picture not wearing a helmet should wear one.

The "snorfiets" isn't used that much in NL compared to scooters. 

Scooter (helmet required)









moped >25 km/h (helmet required)









moped <25 km/h ("snorfiets") helmet not required


----------



## Anderson Geimz (Mar 29, 2008)

ChrisZwolle said:


> All mopeds/scooter drivers on that picture not wearing a helmet should wear one.


How do you know that since you can't see the license plates?
In one of the older pics you see the orange markings of a < 25 kph scooter and indeed the guy is not wearing a helmet since he doesn't have to. presumably the guy riding in front of him also is riding a < 25 kph.

Your pics are incorrect. The model doesn't matter, only the speed.


----------



## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AFAIK, mopeds in The Netherlands have license plates only on their back. Am I correct?


----------



## xlchris (Jun 23, 2006)

^^
Yes. Blue = <25km/h & Yellow = >25km/h. Yellow with blue NL sign = able to drive on highway or N roads.

@ChrisZwolle - How would you know? You can't see the licenseplate 

I, for instance, used to drive this one









Mine went >25km/h so I used to have a helmet. But you can also change it to <25km/h and than you don't need to wear a helmet


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

The Netherlands 2009:

1.3 million bicycles sold
€ 950 million
Average price per bicycle: € 713
number of electrical bicycles: 150,000
average price of e-bike: € 1,900
e-bike share: 10%
number of bicycles in NL: 18,000,000


----------



## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

^great stats. Id love to live in a place like that


----------



## xlchris (Jun 23, 2006)

18 million? Damn that's a lot  Not realy suprised by it though


----------



## Messi (Nov 18, 2007)

Average price 713€? I can't believe that. Most of the bikes in NL look as if they costed about 50-100€.


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

That is the average price of all bikes sold. 

Funny thing is, there are 18 million bikes on 16.5 million people, yet Amsterdam has 550,000 bikes on 750,000 people. It seems like bicycle ownership in Amsterdam is actually below average.

Also, 50,000 bikes end up in the Amsterdam canals every year. That is 10%.


----------

