# PORTUGAL | High Speed Rail



## checco24 (Jul 31, 2004)

According to Jornal de Negócios the State will put forward five concession for the High Speed Train: two along the Lisbon-Porto line and two for the line between Lisbon and Madrid and another between Porto and Vigo. 

The concessioners will be responsible for the planning, building, financing and management of each concession. Besides these a further concession will be launched for signalling and telecommunications. 

The Government has set the end of 2013 as the target for the completion of the Lisbon-Madrid which is to be used both for high speed and regular trains (350 Km/H), with stops at Évora and at the border Elvas/Caia. The estimated cost is of 2.4 billion euros and it includes a new bridge over the Tejo river, between Chelas and Barreiro. In Spain the stops are at Badajoz, Mérida, Caceres, Talavera de La Reina and Madrid. 

The Lisbon-Porto line (300 Km/h)will be completed by 2015 with stops at Aveiro, Coimbra and Leiria and at the future airport at Ota. The total investment is of 4.7 billion euros. 

The Porto-Vigo, Aveiro-Salamanca and Évora-Faro-Huelva lines are projects which the Government will only entertain once the other lines are up and running and their profitability has been gauged.

here is a map of future high speed lines in Portugal


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## Trainman Dave (Mar 30, 2007)

Checco24, thank you for the update kay:


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## sdf11 (Nov 12, 2006)

Ojalá se haga pronto, porque realmente sería muy importante para el crecimiento de la economia portuguesa.

y no estaría mal hacer un Barcelona-Lisboa en 5 o 6 horitas a 350km/h...:nuts:


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## sdf11 (Nov 12, 2006)

I hope that this HSL will be real, and not another dream of governments, it's approved now? This would be fantastic for the portugal economy and development!


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## tugavalenciano (Mar 28, 2007)

sdf11 said:


> Ojalá se haga pronto, porque realmente sería muy importante para el crecimiento de la economia portuguesa.
> 
> y no estaría mal hacer un Barcelona-Lisboa en 5 o 6 horitas a 350km/h...:nuts:


un ejemplar unico de un español ( no gallego) qué no habla mal de portugal!

Gracias!


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## josema_call (May 14, 2007)

tugavalenciano said:


> un ejemplar unico de un español ( no gallego) qué no habla mal de portugal!
> 
> Gracias!



Aquí tienes otro, somos vecinos y casi hermanos. Ya va siendo hora de que vivamos juntos y no de espaldas, cuando no peleados. Estamos condenados a tener lazos históricos, esperemos que de ahora en adelante de amistad.

Obrigado


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## Julen_arbe (Aug 24, 2006)

Aupa Portugal!

Esperemos que se haga realidad ya que supondría un avance muy importante para Portugal! El proyecto tiene buena pinta.

Benga, agur!


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## tugavalenciano (Mar 28, 2007)

Pero que españoles tan simpaticos...


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## Cicerón (May 15, 2006)

You have a very bad _preconceito_ of Spaniards. We don't eat Portuguese people .


Now, seriously, I hope that Portugal can built soon the Lisbon-Madrid HSL. I'm sure it will be great for Portuguese economy.


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## Paulo2004 (Oct 13, 2004)

Nice project.


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## growingup (Feb 25, 2007)

Amazing project! It would be great for Portugal. HS is the way to go when talking about railway.
I hope Madrid-Lisboa HSL works doesn't take too much time. The first steps have already been done and some parts of the line are going to start works soon. Doesn't it also stop at Toledo?. There's already a HSL there and I thought the route was changed to make it go through Toledo and take advantage of that HSL already built.
Anyway, great job Portugal!


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## Trainman Dave (Mar 30, 2007)

growingup said:


> Amazing project! It would be great for Portugal. HS is the way to go when talking about railway.
> I hope Madrid-Lisboa HSL works doesn't take too much time. The first steps have already been done and some parts of the line are going to start works soon. Doesn't it also stop at Toledo?. There's already a HSL there and I thought the route was changed to make it go through Toledo and take advantage of that HSL already built.
> Anyway, great job Portugal!


I am fairly sure that the station in Toledo is a "stub terminal" and the hills would make very difficult to adapt it to a through station. I have read one proposal which would have the new line joining the Toledo spur to avoid disrupting the AVE mainline to Sevilla again.


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## Bitxofo (Feb 3, 2005)

tugavalenciano said:


> un ejemplar unico de un español ( no gallego) qué no habla mal de portugal!
> 
> Gracias!


We are more than one!

Congratulations!!
:wink2:


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## Sergu (Jul 8, 2005)

Me alegro por Portugal, solo he ido una vez, hace 10 años, pero me encanto, es todo precioso y tan verde. Los proyectos son interesantes e ilusionantes, y un tren de alta velocidad siempre ayuda a comunicarse más y a conocerse mejor.
I hope the portuguese dreams can be true.


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

Some pictures and videos of current and past infraestructure improvement works in portuguese railway network:

The entire network (almost entire actualy) is like this:










Currently the High Speed network is like this: 









timeline of "upgrades" to the network:









Legend:
Grey = where the HS services/trains run
blue = lines at 200km/h or more
Red = Porto-Lisboa-Madrid new HSL (works to begin soon)
Orange = Porto-Vigo new HSL (works to begin soon)
Green = "lines under construction" (take it with a grain of salt here)
Black = Major service withrawall (passenger traffic only)

There are 3 major lines currently at speeds equal or higher than 200km/h ... they are:

Linha do Minho /Ramal de Braga (Porto-Braga)
Linha do Norte (Lisboa-Porto)
Linha do Sul (Lisboa-Algarve) 

The high sped trains are "tilting" Alfa Pendular of FIAT/Siemens technology .. .they run Braga-Porto-Lisboa , Porto-Lisboa and Porto-Lisboa-Faro services.
Non "true" HS trains included are:
190/200(?) km/h "Intercity" to Guimarães and Guarda(?)
160km/h "InterCity" to Guarda (?or is it 200?) , C.Branco , Faro
120km/h "Intercity" to Evora , Beja (hauled by diesel locomotives over partly 200/220km/h routes)
Talgo Tren-Hotel "Lusitania": 160km/h in northern line , 120/140 km/h on the rest of the route
"Sud Express" 140km/h in portugal/spain ... french part was replaced by a regular TGV service long time ago

Pictures will follow soon:


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

Southern Line is a NEW line linking Lisboa (Capital) with the touristic algarve down south ... It mostly runs on "upgraded" tracks on most of its journey and NEW( lets call them "recent" instead) tracks in some few cases. 

The "upgraded" tracks are in fact 100% new track either they were built on the same place of the old track or not.

The Lisboa-Coina-PinhalNovo is an entire NEW line:
- wich was partly built in early 90's (10km single track not electrified) ... 
- another large part built in late 90's (20km double track electrified wich included the "tagus" crossing over 25 de abril bridge , and large viaducts) ... 
- and a 3rd "new" part (wich includes an almost 1km long tunnel and a 500m viaduct)
- the line is full of restrictions on it's 10km northern side:
º "tagus" crossing is limited to 60 km/h (40km/h for heavier trains)
º a couple of curves limited to only 45 km/h 
º the viaducts and stations are not designed to high speeds so limits ranging from 130km/h to 160 km/h are abundant 
- the new intermediate section and the original noe electrified section were completely built/rebuilt to HSL standards (speeds above 230km/h were reached in tests with LOCO HAULED rolingstock) :cheers:
- since the train leaves Lisboa and goes in a complete circle before runing south it stops (comercialy) at Pinhal Novo wich a) sits in the middle of a 220km/h zone and b) is faster to acess from central lisbon than Oriente (its a 20 minute bus/car trip or a 40/50 minute train runabound journey.

This line is operated by "Fertagus" (private company) urban/comuter doubledecker trains and by CP (statecompany) long distance and freight trains.

From Pinhal Novo we can eithwer follow directly south to Setubal (the old "Sado line" now upgraded to 200 km/h up to setubal) or continue ahead to Poceirão (the old "South line") where the lines diverge again ... the old "South line" (now Alentejo line) continues to Evora and Beja and the "poceirão-agualva variant" (now a part of the new "south line" turns (at speeds od 220km/h) to the right where it meets the line from setubal.

From Agualva/Aguas de Moura and down south theres a mixture of single track High speed 220km/h , double track high speed 220km/h and single track "unrenovated" ... work still continues on upgrading the old track to HSL ... all "new" HSL is built to 250 km/h mixed traffic usage over there. 

The south part of the "new" south line is only at some 110/140 km/h due to the sinuosity of the terrain ... it will be upgraded/replaced in the near future by a new HSL. 

The "old" south line while mostly single track was built to allow for 2 tracks in the future ... 150 years and only the 30km in the Lisboa/Barreiro side are double track ... only the 15km P.Novo-Poceirão is up to standards (220km/h) while the rest is either at 140km/h or even at 100 km/h (from Beja to Funcheira) ... 50km of it are electrified (40 in the north and 10km in the south). 

From poceirão the "old" south line continued to Vendas Novas (its electrified up to there) and then on to Casa Branca where it diverges in Y , one arm to Evora and the other south to Beja.

C.Branca-Evora will be a part of the NEW direct freight line to the border ... it is already renewed and prepared t oheavy freight and (optionaly) High Speed trains at up to 200/250 km/h.

In Beja a new airport will open this late summer (or before the end of the year) and there are plans to upgrade the line to 200/250 km/h also ... and even in due time to connect with Faro and Sevilla in a new HSL direct alignement. 

A new HSL is to be built joining Lisboa to Madrid passing thru Evora and Badajoz ...
A New airport is also to be built south of the tejo (10km north of Poceirão) ....

So they joined both projects and a new cross Tejo railway bridge (4 tracks) will be built to connect Lisboa to the NAL (novo aeroporto de lisboa) , take 20/30 minutes of Lisboa-South trains , prvide more direct connections Lisboa-Setubal and serve as an exit to the HSL to Madrid.

The 180km between the Tejo south bank and the Border at Badajoz are entirely of almost FLAT terrain with nothing of importance to worry about ... a "mixed" freight/passenger HSL with speed of 300 km/h are due to star engeneering works before the summer ends. :cheers:


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

*Pinhal Novo Station*:

Old north exit:









Old Station:









Old south exit:










New north exit:








Photo by José Sousa @ railfaneurope.net

New Station:








Photo by José Sousa @ railfaneurope.net
^^ Notice the TOWER in the middle of the tracks ... this is what happens when someone wants to IMPOSE something to the local populace ... :lol: 

New South exit:








Photo by José Sousa @ railfaneurope.net


Poceirão station:

Looking west to Pinhal Novo:









Looking south to Ag. Moura/Funcheira/Algarve:









The station:









Looking East to Evora/Beja:









^^ over there will be a MAJOR freight/container terminal in the near future and the new HSL will pass to the left of it.



Southbound Alfa Pendular speeds up:









full tilt passing by Poceirão curve:









Something coming fast at us:








^^ Amoreiras viaduct ... some 140km south of lisboa ... 220km/h double track "upgraded" line (actualy the viaduct is a variant)


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## Trainman Dave (Mar 30, 2007)

Thank you for the photographs in your last post. They are not only impressive but really indicative of the the modern Portugese railway.

I posted a respose to your comments on my opinions on another thread a while ago and I am still reasearching all your comments in post #2.

In post #2 you do not provide any detailed citations for the operating speeds on the various segments which you discus. If you look at my history on SCC you will discover that most of my comments relate claims of high speed operations which are not substantiated.

I don't believe that that you have substantiated the operating speeds which you have quoted


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

Treat the topic as _"work in progress" _ ... as I gather information I'll be putting things together and in a more orderly fashion. (even I lost myself when I read it today) :lol:


A funny in the current timetables is that the AP has 50 minutes given for Lisboa(Oriente) to Pinhal Novo while IC have 45 minutes with more intermediate stops.

It takes an Alfa Pendular 1h53 to make the 220km between Pinhal Novo and tunes (only half are run at 220km/h) ... the intercity trains (loco hauled old sorefame coaches limited to 160km/h) run the same route in 2h35/2h4 (with 5 intermediate stops).


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

Found some photos of Alfa Pendular trains in norhtern line laying around in imageshack:

Notice: Authors referenced in the pictures (or unknown)

Pendulating on "unrenovated" tracks









Pendulating at high speeds in Northern line:



























Crossing the Tejo Bridge (Almada-Lisboa):

















São João Bridge (Gaia-Porto):


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## 437.001 (Mar 27, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> Don't they have a line there today?


No.



> Is there any chance they'd let ADIF build a line inside Portugal with standard gauge?


*NO*.


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

Will Portuguese High Speed Rail mean the end of TAP domestic flights? Curious...


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## Ribarca (Jan 28, 2005)

ferrobico said:


> Portugal: No money, no line :lol:


That nevers has stopped spain from building:nuts:.

The biggest issue for Portugal is that the "troika" decides on things like these in the end.


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## Ribarca (Jan 28, 2005)

FM 2258 said:


> Will Portuguese High Speed Rail mean the end of TAP domestic flights? Curious...


It never ended flight traffic between Madrid and Barcelona either (50% market share as far a I know it). It's often been more econimical to fly for some people.


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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

Hi there, 

It makes a longue time that we did not about the HSR Madrid-Porto is there any timing for that? 


I could find this map :












I think this line is an upgraded to V200 am i wrong?


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

There will never be a HSL Porto-Madrid, not even on a long term!!



In a far, far future (at least not before 2020) there will be no HSL in Portugal!! If some day the portuguese goverment decides to implement that network, the first line to be made will be Lisbon-Madrid, the second Lisbon-Porto and the third Porto-Vigo!!



The lines Aveiro-Salamanca and Évora-Faro-Huelva probably will never be made as HSL, particularly the Aveiro-Salamanca!!



Weeks ago the portuguese government presented a set of intentions for Eight rail projects that have been included in a list of 30 investment schemes.



One of the intentions is to complete the modernisation of the Beira Alta corridor linking Aveiro and Vilar Formoso on the Spanish border, that includes the instalation of bi-gauge beams, elimination of the constraints of the track in way to be possible freight trains of 750 meters and a northern direct link to the North Line in the Pampilhosa area!! 


*Map of the Beira Alta Line:*


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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

pai nosso said:


> There will never be a HSL Porto-Madrid, not even on a long term!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks nosso, 

I found that the line Porto-Lisboa is a V220 like many HSR in Germany so there is no need to higher speed on this line.


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

Not really!!


There are sections that the portuguese pendolindo can travel at 220 Km/h, but there are sections like Gaia-Ovar that are very badly maintained and with level crossings on urban areas, and on that section, the trains travel on a slow speed line (SSL)!!!:lol::lol::lol:

Another reason is for that the actual Northern Line (Lisbon-Porto) need it to be upgraded to 4 tracks, and there are sections were that is impossible due to the bad portuguese urbanism history/laws.



According to the economical-financial studies at the time, i think that the HSL Lisbon-Porto would be the only one to give profit at the long run, the problem was that it was the more expensible (4 MM€)!!




*Map in 2011 of the portuguese railroad network:*


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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

pai nosso said:


> According to the economical-financial studies at the time, i think that the HSL Lisbon-Porto would be the only one to give profit at the long run, the problem was that it was the more expensible (4 MM€)!!



No 4 MM€ is too expensive for a link less than 200 km untill Fuentes de oñoro,


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

Sunfuns said:


> It would be helpful a Sevilla-Faro HSL, but I don't think the Portuguese have any projects to build a line there..


At the time of big money:lol::lol: a fifth line of HSL would be built between Évora & Faro, with the possibility of extension to Andalusia (Sevilla)!!!


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## 437.001 (Mar 27, 2009)

pai nosso said:


> There will never be a HSL Porto-Madrid, not even on a long term!!


Someone spoke on the Spanish forum about a possible Madrid-Porto service via Vigo, once the whole Galicia HSL gets finished (by 2018, they say).
Anyway, the current state of things, it would still need some work (probably a chord between Redondela and Pontevedra), since the trains coming into Vigo from the HSL or from Corunna will end up at Vigo-Urzáiz station, while all trains on the Minho lines (Ourense via Ribadavia, and Porto via Valença and Viana do Castelo) will end up at Vigo-Guixar station. 



pai nosso said:


> In a far, far future (at least not before 2020) there will be no HSL in Portugal!! If some day the portuguese goverment decides to implement that network, the first line to be made will be Lisbon-Madrid, the second Lisbon-Porto and the third Porto-Vigo!!


Well, in the case of Lisbon-Madrid, the main thing, the essential, is to build the missing section between Evora and Elvas, whatever the speed.
The rest is Spain´s task to build.

Given the fact that the speed on the current line between Evora and Lisbon is acceptable, and that in the not too distant future the HSL between Navalmoral de la Mata and Badajoz will be partially open, the construction of that missing link becomes more and more urgent. 



pai nosso said:


> The lines Aveiro-Salamanca and Évora-Faro-Huelva probably will never be made as HSL, particularly the Aveiro-Salamanca!!


Aveiro-Salamanca as a new line... I just don´t see it, rather an upgrade of the current line from Pampilhosa.

As for Faro-Huelva... that will simply never happen. Andalusia and the Algarve don´t have much relationship. There never was a rail bridge between Ayamonte and Vila Real de Santo António (and the road bridge wasn´t built till the 1990s!!), and the line between Ayamonte and Gibraleón (next to Huelva) was closed and dismantled in 1987, so that speaks by itself.



pai nosso said:


> One of the intentions is to complete the modernisation of the Beira Alta corridor linking Aveiro and Vilar Formoso on the Spanish border, that includes the instalation of bi-gauge beams, elimination of the constraints of the track in way to be possible freight trains of 750 meters and a northern direct link to the North Line in the Pampilhosa area!!


Including something around Vila Franca das Naves? There´s a serious bend there. 



pai nosso said:


> There are sections that the portuguese pendolindo can travel at 220 Km/h, but there are sections like Gaia-Ovar that are very badly maintained and with level crossings on urban areas, and on that section, the trains travel on a slow speed line (SSL)!!!:lol::lol::lol:


What´s the best travel time between Lisbon and Porto on the Alfa Pendular? 



pai nosso said:


> Another reason is for that the actual Northern Line (Lisbon-Porto) need it to be upgraded to 4 tracks, and there are sections were that is impossible due to the bad portuguese urbanism history/laws.


Is there any real need for that, are the current tracks that strained?



pai nosso said:


> At the time of big money:lol::lol: a fifth line of HSL would be built between Évora & Faro, with the possibility of extension to Andalusia (Sevilla)!!!


Between Évora and Faro? :crazy: Who´d travel on such line, me? 
Why not extending the current upgraded line from Grândola to Faro?


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## 437.001 (Mar 27, 2009)

error post, wrong thread.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

437.001 said:


> Someone spoke on the Spanish forum about a possible Madrid-Porto service via Vigo, once the whole Galicia HSL gets finished (by 2018, they say).
> Anyway, the current state of things, it would still need some work (*probably a chord between Redondela and Pontevedra*), since the trains coming into Vigo from the HSL or from Corunna will end up at Vigo-Urzáiz station, while all trains on the Minho lines (Ourense via Ribadavia, and Porto via Valença and Viana do Castelo) will end up at Vigo-Guixar station.


Isn't Redondela-Pontevedra stretch already finished as part of the currently ongoing upgrade of Santiago-Vigo line? All you'd need to do would be to build a connection somewhere near Redondela between the new line and the old. 

Of course even better would be to find a way for trains from Portugal to reach Vigo-Urzaiz allowing through service via Vigo, but that's not going to be cheap. As I've said it before I think it was a mistake not to plan for it from the beginning.


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

437.001 said:


> As for Faro-Huelva... that will simply never happen. Andalusia and the Algarve don´t have much relationship. There never was a rail bridge between Ayamonte and Vila Real de Santo António (and the road bridge wasn´t built till the 1990s!!), and the line between Ayamonte and Gibraleón (next to Huelva) was closed and dismantled in 1987, so that speaks by itself.


It something that makes me astonish, the fact that never was a rail bridge between between the towns Ayamonte & Vila Real de Santo António!! 



437.001 said:


> Including something around Vila Franca das Naves? There´s a serious bend there.


They intend to invest 900 M€ on the track between Pampilhosa and Vilar Formoso€!!




437.001 said:


> What´s the best travel time between Lisbon and Porto on the Alfa Pendular?


Porto-Campanhã»»Lisbon-Oriente it is 2h35!

Porto-Campanhã»»Lisbon-Santa Apolónia it is 2h43!




437.001 said:


> Is there any real need for that, are the current tracks that strained?


Yes they are!!

I saw a graphic with the actual capacity of the Northern Line by section, but i can`t find it now!!




437.001 said:


> Between Évora and Faro? :crazy: Who´d travel on such line, me?
> Why not extending the current upgraded line from Grândola to Faro?


I also never understand that idea, but that was the initial project!!

Perhaps the idea was to get passengers from Évora!!


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## 437.001 (Mar 27, 2009)

Sunfuns said:


> Isn't Redondela-Pontevedra stretch already finished as part of the currently ongoing upgrade of Santiago-Vigo line? All you'd need to do would be to build a connection somewhere near Redondela between the new line and the old.


Like I said, between Redondela and Pontevedra. And no, the section Redondela-Pontevedra is not yet finished.



Sunfuns said:


> Of course even better would be to find a way for trains from Portugal to reach Vigo-Urzaiz allowing through service via Vigo, but that's not going to be cheap. As I've said it before I think it was a mistake not to plan for it from the beginning.


It´s a mistake, yes. But we´re going off-topic, this is the thread about Portugal.


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## AngeloSoares (Aug 14, 2014)

*Portugese freight trains*

Português: , Eu tenho uma pergunta: Eu estou aqui em Portugal em Vendas Novas e viver perto da estação, eu sou às vezes por horas na estação, mas não vejo nenhuma carga.Quem por acaso sabe se existem mercadorias provenientes locomotivas soltas ou?


Englisch: Portuguese: I have a question: I'm here in Portugal in Vendas Novas and live near the station, I'm sometimes for hours at the station, but I see no cargo .who know if there are freighttrains or locomotives that come true Vendas Novas?


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## boidapascoa (Jan 30, 2014)

www.bitblitz.net/refer


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

ATTENTION »» this project has been suspended/canceled for the moment, but a portuguese forumer posted the render of the projected Évora Station for the HSL between Lisbon and Madrid.





DiogoBaptista said:


> High-Speed Station Évora
> New InterModal Station Évora
> EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA, ADRIANO PIMENTA ARQUITETOS
> 
> ...


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## VITORIA MAN (Jan 31, 2013)

nice but too big for a small town as evora ??


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## PRB (Dec 27, 2009)

VITORIA MAN said:


> nice but too big for a small town as evora ??



^^
Portuguese megalomania... That's why we bankrupt...
I'm glad that the high-speed project (as it is) never started, otherwise we probably could have ended up worse than Greece...


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

437.001 said:


> That's useless. It would be quite expensive and Spain is already building the HSL to Badajoz and the HSL to Vigo.


What will be the travel time between Vigo and Madrid when the HSL is completed??

Currently between Porto-Campanhã and Vigo-Guizar, the travel time is 2h15, with the future electrification the time may be cutted in 15 minutes, maybe! »» See here


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## 437.001 (Mar 27, 2009)

Battuta said:


> So Madrid-Lisbon via Badajoz. And Madrid-Porto via vigo ..


Yes, at the moment these are the most feasible options.

On the other hand, the moment Salamanca-Vilar Formoso will be electrified, things could dramatically change, but the Beira Alta line is not the best line on Earth. :sleepy:
Which is the travel time between Pampilhosa and Vilar Formoso, calling just at Mangualde and Guarda? 
_Edit: 3h03min best current time (calling at some other stations, I guess)._
And which are the fastest travel times from Lisbon and Porto to Pampilhosa? _Edit: Pampilhosa-Porto 1h, and Pampilhosa-Lisbon 2h04min._
_Medina del Campo-Vilar Formoso takes somewhere around 2h20min. Medina del Campo-Madrid on the HSL takes some 40 min._

:hmm: _I thought the travel times from Pampilhosa to Porto and Lisbon were longer._



pai nosso said:


> What will be the travel time between Vigo and Madrid when the HSL is completed??


Somewhere between 3h30min and 4h.



pai nosso said:


> Currently between Porto-Campanhã and Vigo-Gui*x*ar, the travel time is 2h15, with the future electrification the time may be cutted in 15 minutes, maybe! »» See here


So Madrid to Porto in somewhere between 5h45 and 6h15min could be feasible.
Not a very interesting travel time point to point, but still far better than what we have now, which is no direct train at all, and serving also Vigo, Viana do Castelo, Nine and maybe also Barcelos, as well as Pontevedra, Vilagarcía de Arousa, Ourense, Zamora and Segovia (not Santiago de Compostela though, as the train should take a by-pass right before Santiago that leads to Ourense).

That, given the case that a chord between the Vigo-Guixar to Guillarei and Vigo-Urzaiz to Santiago lines was built. Otherwise there's no way the train could be direct. This chord would be interesting not only for Madrid-Porto services, but also and in particular for potential Corunna-Lisbon services, which would have a stronger business case.

The other option would be to reverse at Vigo-Guixar and take the classic line to Ourense, with a slightly longer travel time, and the possibility of calling at Salvaterra (next to Monçâo) and/or Ribadavia, but leaving behind the possibility of the Pontevedra and Vilagarcía potential passengers (which are much bigger towns). 



Sunfuns said:


> I was thinking via Vigo and Santiago after Galicia HS line is finished, but now I checked and realised that I was too optimistic about getting from Porto to Santiago in 2.5 h. Particularly considering change of station in Vigo. It could be done with a car though, so in principle some modest further improvements might deliver that travel time.
> 
> Which route do you think will be the fastest five years from now?


Madrid-Porto via Vigo-Pontevedra. But that will mean the compulsory construction of the chord and also the electrification and upgrade of Nine-Valença-Guillarei, otherwise there's no point.
_Edit: Madrid-Porto via Vilar Formoso IF Salamanca-Vilar Formoso is electrified would still take some 7 hours, Madrid-Lisbon around 8 hours._


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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

437.001 said:


> That's useless. It would be quite expensive and Spain is already building the HSL to Badajoz and the HSL to Vigo.



Through Badajoz to Lisbon is ok, but through Vigo to Porto i think there is possibility to do better

Via salamanca it seems it was a priority european coridor one time .. 












@ pai nosso look the map above it seems there is no hilly regions between Salamanca and Coimbra if it will be calqued on the highway E80 traject..


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## 437.001 (Mar 27, 2009)

^^
That map is rather old. It's quite outdated in many cases.
And the fact that the Salamanca line is a priority for Brussels doesn't mean that the priority is given to passengers over freight.

You are not completely wrong, though, the thing is that the obvious Madrid to Porto route is the one via Vilar Formoso, but in that case, the only section on HSL would be Madrid to Medina del Campo, the rest on classic line. To fill the train, compulsory stops at Segovia, Salamanca, Ciudad Rodrigo, Guarda, Mangualde (for Viseu), Pampilhosa (reversal), and Aveiro. Any more stops would be playing too much with the travel time. Problem: Coimbra would be left out, although Pampilhosa is not far.

Once the HSL to Galicia is finished, the travel time will be shorter via Vigo, and serving a much more populated area: Ourense, Vilagarcía, Pontevedra, Vigo, Viana do Castelo, Barcelos, Nine (for Braga), Trofa (for Guimarães). Plus Zamora and Segovia.


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## VITORIA MAN (Jan 31, 2013)

Battuta said:


> Through Badajoz to Lisbon is ok, but through Vigo to Porto i think there is possibility to do better
> 
> Via salamanca it seems it was a priority european coridor one time ..
> 
> ...


we are crazy , a hst to teruel , soria...


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

pai nosso said:


> By car: 5h16
> 
> By train: 9h40 (having lucky:lol::lol »» click here


But in car you must spend your active daytime to drive, while in a train you are sleeping, so you only spend one or two hours of your active daytime. ^^


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## 437.001 (Mar 27, 2009)

XAN_ said:


> But in car you must spend your active daytime to drive, while in a train you are sleeping, so you only spend one or two hours of your active daytime. ^^


Night trains are dying in all of Europe.


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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

437.001 said:


> Night trains are dying in all of Europe.


Yep what i was thinking about the ones they were serving Paris are all dead  Toute une epoque how we say .. 

Better skeep in a Hotel next to a High speed rail station than in a train.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Porto-Madrid would be around 4 h door to door by a plane, less if you happen to live close to the airport. Cheaper too than driving if you are not at least three people.


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

437.001 said:


> Somewhere between 3h30min and 4h.


Thanks for answering!!





Battuta said:


> Via salamanca it seems it was a priority european coridor one time ..
> 
> @ pai nosso look the map above it seems there is no hilly regions between Salamanca and Coimbra if it will be calqued on the highway E80 traject..



*Portugal`s Orographichal Chart*











Very hilly terrain that would imply building a lot of tunnels and viaducts for a HSL of 250 Km/h.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Is there any possibility of lowering travel time between Porto and Vigo to 1.5 h (average of 100 km/h) or less without building an entirely new line?


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## DKF01 (Jan 3, 2014)

Sunfuns said:


> Is there any possibility of lowering travel time between Porto and Vigo to 1.5 h (average of 100 km/h) or less without building an entirely new line?


Electrifying the Minho Line would allow to lower the time travel and according to the news the electrification starts in 2017.


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

Sunfuns said:


> Is there any possibility of lowering travel time between Porto and Vigo to 1.5 h (average of 100 km/h) or less without building an entirely new line?


No!!

Thanks to bad portuguese urban planement, the line has a lot of constraints, then there is the problem that in Portugal the trains have to pass on the stations at 80 Km/h or less (normally less), several bridges limitations, Barcelos, Viana do Castelo, Caminha, Valença do Minho, and limitations on the trains timetables.


Another bullet points given by user Oponopono:

*track velocitys at km/h...*

-São Bento to Campanhã: 60

-Campanhã to Ermesinde: 80

-Ermesinde to Nine: 100-120 with a short 140 (4km). For the pendolindos there two more little stretches at 140 between Lousado and Nine.

-Nine to Viana: 90-100 with two 110 and one small 120 (3km). Stations passes at 80

-Viana to Caminha: 120-140 and some parts at 80-100 and the 80 at the stations

-Caminha to Valença: 100 with the stations at 80.




*P.S.:* 1)there is a Portuguese former that uses the line between Lisbon and Barcelos that defines this line very well: From Porto to Nine » XXI century, from Nine to Valença do Minho »XIX century.

2)thread on the SSC-Portugal with photos of the Minho line »» Click here


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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

pai nosso said:


> Thanks for answering!! Portugal`s Orographichal Chart Very hilly terrain that would imply building a lot of tunnels and viaducts for a HSL of 250 Km/h.


There is sole valeys where the highway 80 pass


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

Battuta said:


> There is sole valeys where the highway 80 pass


Probably that was the place where the 4th HSL (Aveiro-Viseu-Guarda) was idealized!


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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

pai nosso said:


> No!!
> 
> Thanks to bad portuguese urban planement, the line has a lot of constraints, then there is the problem that in Portugal the trains have to pass on the stations at 80 Km/h or less (normally less), several bridges limitations, Barcelos, Viana do Castelo, Caminha, Valença do Minho, and limitations on the trains timetables.
> 
> ...



Every speed exceeding 80 km/h is good the bus average is usually estimed to 70 km/h on highway and not 100 km/h and the great advantage of the train is when it arrives to city suburbs no traffic jump (no atasco) so it becomes better than the bus. 


One question about speed of trains :



Battuta said:


> Did someone calculated some speed trains by Waze here ?
> 
> N.B. to add the speedometer in Waze it is possible to do as folows :
> 
> ...


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

ATTENTION »» this project has been suspended/canceled for the moment, but a portuguese forumer posted the render of the projected Campanhã Station for the HSL between Lisbon and Porto.


*Campanhã Station - Porto*


Hugoferreiraleite said:


> A estação de Campanhã seria toda ela remodelada.
> Assim de cabeça ficaria como a gare do Oriente, com os acessos rodoviários no piso -2, conectados diretamente à VCI, AV no piso -1, e serviços atuais no piso 0.
> 
> Podes ver a foto partilhada pelo nosso colega Pelha, aqui do forum:



Legend:

Road acess »» Sub-level -2;

HSL »» Sub-level -1;

Conventional Railroad lines »» Level 0


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

ATTENTION »» this project has been suspended/canceled for the moment, but i found this information for the HSL between Lisbon and Madrid.


1-









2-









3-









4-








Source: http://ferropedia.es/wiki/LAV_Madrid_-_Extremadura_-_Lisboa


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## overdrive1979 (Jan 4, 2014)

Hello everyone.
I would like to ask to Portuguese train enthusiasts about the expected timeline to swicht the old iberian gauge to standard one.
Are there any plans for it within the next years?
If they are waiting for the first link to the new standard Spanish rail network coming to the Portuguese border, it will be Valença do Minho once the high speed line Zamora - Galicia has been accomplished.


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

overdrive1979 said:


> Hello everyone.
> I would like to ask to Portuguese train enthusiasts about the expected timeline to swicht the old iberian gauge to standard one.
> Are there any plans for it within the next years?
> If they are waiting for the first link to the new standard Spanish rail network coming to the Portuguese border, it will be Valença do Minho once the high speed line Zamora - Galicia has been accomplished.


There is no timeline to change the iberian gauge to standard one because the portuguese politics do think in long term or medium term.:nuts::nuts: They only think in 4 on 4 years when there are elections and they promise somthing for the railroads if they win and after the victory they do not comply, and this goes on, and on....

They will only think about that when Portugal becomes a complete islan fo the iberian gauge and even then, most likeky they will only change gauge if the E. U. pays fot it!!


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## overdrive1979 (Jan 4, 2014)

pai nosso said:


> overdrive1979 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello everyone.
> ...



Well, I hope things will improve faster as in 2023 it is expected the entire rail standard gauge link between Valladolid and the French border through Irún.
So, at that time I guess that the link Medina del Campo - Salamanca - Vilar Formoso will be upgraded to standard gauge as well.
Perhaps 2025 would be the year when Beira Alta and Beira Baixa will begin to 
install the standard gauge for fast trains.

What are your thoughts?
Cheers from the neighbourg country of Spain.


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

*THIS THREAD IT IS ALIVE,😆😂 AGAIN:😆😂


NEWS


High-speed line will connect Lisbon and Porto in 1h15m*

The first phase of the new infrastructure will serve Aveiro, Coimbra and Leiria, will be built in Iberian gauge and cross the Northern line at several points allowing an articulation with the conventional network. Project costs 4500 million.

The PNI - National Investment Program 2030 - which will be announced this Thursday in Lisbon with the presence of the Prime Minister and the Ministers of Infrastructure, Environment and Agriculture - includes as main project a new line Lisbon - Porto, which in a second phase will be prepared for speeds of 300 km / hour in order to connect the two cities in a travel time of approximately 1 hour and 15 minutes. According to the PUBLIC, in a first phase, this infrastructure will be built in Iberian gauge and articulated with the conventional network to receive trains with speed levels between 220 and 250 km / hour.

*The planned investment is 4500 million euros.*

The construction of this line will be phased, which will allow its use as the successive sections are opened as it will cross the North line in some points. Priority will be given to the Gaia - Soure section, which represents half the route between Lisbon and Porto, and the line must then touch Leiria and continue to Lisbon on a channel already studied by RAVE (the company created in 2000 under António Guterres to study the high-speed network) west of Serra dos Candeeiros.

Based on the RAVE corridor, this means that from Leiria to Lisbon the new infrastructure should pass in the vicinity of Rio Maior and Ota and enter Lisbon through the Arruda dos Vinhos area, in a section of difficult execution that requires several tunnels and viaducts.

Hence, priority is given to the northern half, easier, between Gaia and Soure.

This project makes the construction of two more bridges over the Douro and the Tagus inevitable in the longer term. The S. João bridge will become congested when absorbing more trains coming from the new line and, to the south, a “railway highway” that connects Porto to Lisbon in 1h15 will require a third crossing of the Tagus to make the time gains pass to the Setúbal peninsula, Alentejo and Algarve.

When building the new infrastructure in Iberian gauge, the Government intends that it will be used, in whole or in part, by other passenger services with a greater number of stops (for example, the Intercidades) or that have no origin and destination in Lisbon and Porto. Lisbon services to Braga, Guimarães, Viana do Castelo, Régua and Guarda will be able to use this new corridor. Conversely, Porto will be closer to Setúbal, Beja and Faro.

In the end, the new Lisbon - Porto line will be the central corridor of the Atlantic axis that will connect Galicia to the Algarve and Andalusia.

Although built in Iberian gauge, the sleepers on which the rails will rest will be versatile, that is, they will be prepared so that, in the future, the line can migrate to European gauge. And only then - when the whole line is in European gauge - will trains be able to actually run at 300 km / hour and Porto and Lisbon are 1h15 away.

This is because high-speed trains are only approved for use in European gauge. Its homologation for Iberian gauge would be too expensive for a government or manufacturer to invest in it. For this reason, the new Lisbon - Porto line will be limited to 250 km / hour in the first phase (which already allows noticeable reductions in journey times compared to the North line) and only in the long term will be a high speed line.

*The seasons*

Taking advantage of the studies done by RAVE, the high-speed line will leave Gaia and should not pass through Aveiro, whose station will be served through a variant to the main line. That is: there will be Lisbon - Porto trains that will pass off Aveiro and others that will use that detour to stop in that city.

Coimbra, on the other hand, will have the new infrastructure passing through the current Coimbra B station while in Leiria a “Leiria / Marinha Grande” station is planned at a point next to the West line. Once again, it is a matter of articulating at high speed with the conventional network, thus allowing trains coming from Torres Vedras and Caldas da Rainha to proceed north through the new corridor.

Following the RAVE route, the line continues through Rio Maior (where a station was planned for which only a few services would stop) and Ota, which is no longer a fixed point on the map, now allowing another route to be decided on. near Santarém.

This approach of articulating the high speed line with the conventional network is in line with one of the Government's premises in the elaboration of a National Railway Plan “based on a network model, which includes lines, branches and interconnected routes”.

*Financing*


In order to obtain the 4500 million euros needed for this project, the executive must use Community funds, namely from the MFF (Multi-annual Financial Framework) and CEF (Connecting Europe Facility). The strategy is based on taking advantage of the European availability for railway projects (both in infrastructure and in rolling stock) to obtain Community funds and to save the non-refundable money from the European “bazooka” for road projects, which are no longer financed by the EU. That is why the Recovery and Resilience Plan recently presented does not include investments in the railroad, with the exception of the subway and light meters, whose responsibility, incidentally, is the Ministry of the Environment and not that of the Infrastructure.

In this uneven game, Matos Fernandes takes the lost money from the “bazooka” and Pedro Nuno Santos with conventional community financing.

*The "T" lying*

Bringing Lisbon and Porto together and creating a large coastal metropolitan area was an early strategy taken by the Minister of Infrastructure, Pedro Nuno Santos, who considers a high-speed line indispensable for this purpose. In an interview with PÚBLICO on 27 November 2019, the government official said that “the country would have a lot to gain” with a connection between the two cities with a speed between 250 and 300 km / hour. “On the day when the trip between Lisbon and Porto can be made in just over an hour, we will be thinking about the way this country is organized, the way the economy articulates, the way we work, completely different".

20 years ago, his counterpart João Cravinho said the same thing when he announced a high-speed line between Lisbon and Porto, also in 1h15m. The minister said that this line was necessary to oppose the Spanish centralism of considering Madrid the center of a star from which high-speed lines radiated to all points of the Iberian Peninsula.

In Portugal, instead of Madrid being connected to a point (Lisbon), it would be connected to a Lisbon-Porto corridor, to a large coastal metropolis. Hence the idea of the “lying T” as a vertical axis from which a line would leave for Spain. Cravinho was even talking about a Pontevedra - Setúbal axis.

But also for 20 years, the reasons for building a new Lisbon - Porto line were linked to the fragility of the Northern line in responding to the future challenges of mobility between the two cities. The line was starting to be modernized and already added delays. The aim was for the commuters to connect the Tagus to the Douro in 2h15, but it was decided to stay by 2h30 as the bet would be at high speed.

20 years have passed. Modernization of the Northern line has not progressed and commuting takes three hours between Lisbon and Porto. A new minister announces that it is time to resume high speed and the 1h15 target between the two capitals. But pragmatically, it does not announce a segregated project, to be built in one go like its predecessor, but a phased construction that provides time savings as it is done.

Quadruplication between Roma-Areeiro and Silver Arm advances
The PNI 2023 contemplates the quadruplication (four ways) of the Cintura line between Roma-Areeiro and Braço de Prata, thus resolving the biggest bottleneck in Lisbon. The line that crosses the city has four lanes, but there is a small section of four kilometers left between Roma-Areeiro and Braço de Prata which has only two lanes. By moving to four lines, you can increase the number of trains between the North line and the Cintura line and from there to the Sintra line and the South line.

However, passengers from the South Margin will not benefit from this investment of 110 million euros because Fertagus (which operates between Lisbon and Setúbal) will continue to have its station ending in Rome-Areeiro. The company does not have enough trains to extend the operation to the East, so this infrastructure improvement is of no use to you.

This Lisbon bottleneck has its equivalent in Porto, between Campanhã and Ermesinde, where eight kilometers of double track are insufficient to cover all the rail traffic coming from the Douro, Minho and the Braga and Guimarães branches. Its quadruplication is also foreseen in the PNI 2030.
Source (in portuguese): Linha de alta velocidade vai ligar Lisboa e Porto em 1h15m


Porto Canal reveals *that Porto and Vigo* will also be connected by a new high-speed rail link.

The trips that currently take 2h22m, are made in just one hour. The investment will be 900 million euros.
Source (in portuguese): Porto e Vigo vão estar ligadas através de uma nova ligação ferroviária de alta velocidade


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

Ideas presented at the Portugal Railway Summit 2021:









In Orange, are marked the connection points with the current North Line (Porto »Lisbon).


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

News article from the portuguese newspaper Público:

*
Train can connect Porto and Lisbon without stops in 1h10*


The direct line between Porto and Lisbon may have diversions to Aveiro, Coimbra and Leiria. Solutions for intermediate cities are still being studied. 

Infraestruturas de Portugal is studying a direct line between Porto and Lisbon, with diversions to Aveiro, Coimbra and Leiria, says Público. The solution will already be decided for Aveiro, being thus under analysis for the other two cities. 

between Porto and Lisbon and others with stops in the three cities. This is because, with the construction of diversions from this line to the Northern line, to serve the stations of Aveiro, Coimbra and Leiria, cities can have fast trains and have faster routes to Lisbon and Porto. 

The non-stop train between the capital and Invicta can take 1 hour and ten minutes and if it serves the intermediate cities, around 1h30. The solution to serve intermediate stations with high-speed trains without the new line having to pass through the city is still being studied for Coimbra and Leiria.
Source (in portuguese): Comboio pode ligar Porto e Lisboa sem paragens em 1h10


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

News article from the portuguese newspaper Observador:


In Aveiro, for example, it will be the stations of Oiã (south) and Canelas (north) that will facilitate the diversion of high-speed trains to the Northern line, allowing them to serve the Aveiro station and then return to the main high-speed line. 

In Coimbra, Infraestruturas de Portugal says that “two alternative scenarios are being considered”, one that involves the construction of a tunnel or viaduct to cross the Mondego and another that supposes the creation of a detour “somewhere between Alfarelos and Taveiro” so that the train can join the Northern line, reach Coimbra B and then return to the “Souselas area where another detour would allow them to continue again along the high-speed line”. 

In Leiria, whose studies have not yet advanced, but IP admits that the solution previously studied by RAVE (High Speed Railway Network) may be resumed, that is, following what is being planned for Aveiro and Coimbra, they may be created two deviations on the west line (implying the doubling of the line in that specific section). More certain seems to be the hypothesis that the high-speed line starts only at Carregado. Instead of building a completely new section between Lisbon and Carregado, the idea is to use the existing Northern line to circulate high-speed trains as it takes just over three minutes. 
Source (in portuguese): Alta velocidade. Em estudo ligação direta entre Lisboa e Porto em 1 hora e 10 minutos


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## 437.001 (Mar 27, 2009)

I have a couple questions.

The new Porto-Vigo HSL will create some side effects.
Namely, the improvement of travel times all along the country, which will increase the passenger numbers. Say, Porto-Leiria-Caldas da Rainha, Lisbon-Figueira da Foz, Porto-Faro, Lisbon-Braga, Lisbon-Guimarâes, Lisbon-Viana-Vigo, etc.
But this could also create some new bottlenecks, or worsen already existing ones.

I'm thinking about the 25 of April bridge, which is already rather congested.
Do you think the construction of Porto-Lisbon will make the TTT (Third Tagus Crossing, in Portuguese "Terceira Travessia do Tejo") necessary?

I'm also thinking of the Douro bridge between Porto and Vila Nova de Gaia.
Is it very saturated?


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

Sorry for the late reply. 



For the Porto-Lisbon connection to TTT is not necessary.

TTT is only needed (🤣) for HSL Lisboa Madrid and to improve intercity connections with the Alentejo (Évora & Beja) and Algarve (Faro) regions and increase the frequencies of suburban services south of Lisbon.

When people started thinking about the high-speed network at the beginning of 2000, they thought about a hypothesis that consisted of making the connection between Porto and Lisbon, first crossing the Tagus from the Santarém area, going to the supposedly futuristic New Lisbon Airport and then crossing the TTT to Lisbon. But that idea was abandoned.










The current problem is entry into Lisbon, because from the Carregado/V. Franca de Xira area literally has no room to implement new lines. Until a few years ago the quadrupling of the North Line in V. Franca de Xira was failed by the EIS (Environmental Impact Study)



In relation to Porto, a problem in Portugal is the almost complete inexistence of urban planning or any type of medium and long term planning.

The current São João railway bridge has been completely saturated for about 10 years. In November 2020, the Público newspaper reported that the new bridge would cost 500 M€ and that the cost would be high because:

" The cost will be high, justifies the same newspaper, since the span of the bridge will have approximately two thousand meters and the access to the bridge is complex. According to the project, the future line should pass under Vila Nova de Gaia, through a tunnel, leaving directly for the new bridge to be built between Ponte do Freixo and Ponte de S. João. This form allows the entry of high-speed trains straight from the Campanhã station." Source:


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

A study was carried out on a High Speed Line in the Trás-os-Montes region, linking Porto » Vila Real » Bragança » Zamora (Spain):



sfreitas9 said:


> *ZIP file is available at:* Linha de Alta Velocidade de Trás-os-Montes (in portuguese)
> 
> View attachment 2137420


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

*NEWS


High speed forces the new Porto-Gaia bridge *










Railway structure will pass over Areinho beach (Gaia) and Mota-Engil land near Campanhã (Porto) 
Photo: André Gouveia/Global Imagens 


New Porto-Lisbon line implies the third rail crossing. Campanhã station needs an underground stop and Sá Carneiro Airport will be a railway terminal. 


The new Porto-Lisbon line will require the construction of a new railway bridge between Cidade Invicta and Vila Nova de Gaia. Infraestruturas de Portugal (IP) confirmed to JN/Dinheiro Vivo that the new crossing will be necessary for high-speed trains to stop in the city of Porto. The work on rails will also lead to the expansion of the Campanhã station. 

IP requested a "study of options for a new crossing of the Douro River" from the Edgar Cardoso laboratory, according to a contract published on January 10 on the Base portal. The company's official source claims that it will be necessary to build a new crossing because the current São João bridge "is at the limit of its capacity" and will not be able to "accommodate the high-speed service". 

Not quite. The São João Bridge project provided for a maximum of 400 train circulations per day. Last year, according to IP itself, there was a daily average of 147 trains (goods included) crossing the Douro between Porto and Gaia. It is less than half of the allowed capacity.

However, the new crossing will be necessary for technical reasons. At the end of Ponte de São João, on the Gaia side, it is not possible to insert a new high-speed line completely in a curve. Because of this, the third railway bridge over the Douro is mandatory.

Located between the Ponte de São João and the Freixo road bridge, the new railway crossing will give access to the Campanhã Station, passing over the river beach of Areinho (in Gaia) and the land of Mota-Engil (in Porto). The height of the deck will be below the height of Ponte do Freixo. 

Accommodating high-speed trains implies expanding the main train station in Porto. The expansion of Campanhã, however, will have to be underground, due to the construction of the intermodal road terminal and the project to convert the old slaughterhouse into a business center. Under the platform, there will be a station below ground level with two to four lines, similar to what happens with the central station in Berlin. 

Terminal Sá Carneiro 

In Porto, the high-speed terminal station will be at Sá Carneiro Airport, which will also have space to accommodate the fast train maintenance workshops. From Campanhã, the connection will be made in a tunnel towards the north, then curve towards Guifões until reaching the airport. 

For now, there is no budget for the new railway bridge (and respective accesses), although it is known that it will be below the 500 million euros mentioned in November 2020 in an article in Público. The costs, at the time, included the possibility of a high-speed station in Gaia, which is out of the question. 

Contacted by JN/DV, Câmara de Gaia sent comments after the presentation of the studies. The municipality of Porto declined to talk about the matter.
Source (in portuguese): Alta velocidade obriga a nova ponte Porto-Gaia


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

Powerpoints recently released by IP in a presentation:



Tomás Ribeiro said:


> Numa apresentação da IP de 21 de Fevereiro


P.S.: in the future Braga Vigo connection, a Valença AV station and a south branch and a north branch connecting to the Minho Line are represented.

What it implies is that IP is studying the different solutions. But a first observation suggests that the south branch will be almost impossible to be completed because it crosses a protected environmental area.

According to local users in Braga, it also suggests that a new Braga AV station will be built outside the city and in the Gondizalves area.

Gondizalves on Google Maps

The new line to be built will leave the current Minho Line at Tadim.


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

*NEWS*


Porto, Gaia and IP are negotiating the crossing of the Douro river with a dual function, which will prevent the crossing of D. António Francisco dos Santos from being carried out. Connection will have the bishop's name.






















Instead of two new bridges on the Douro River downstream of the Freixo crossing, we will have only one with two decks: one for the high-speed train and the other for road. The solution, which is being negotiated between the Gaia and Porto councils and Infraestruturas de Portugal (IP), will allow, instead of building the crossing to the TGV and the D. António Francisco dos Santos Bridge a few meters from distance from each other, there will be only one connection with a dual function, similar to what happens with the Luís I Bridge (metro on the upper deck and car traffic on the lower deck).


This dossier should be closed in the next few days and is dependent on the analysis of the engineers working on the design of the new crossing. By opting for the crossing with two decks, the municipalities of Porto and Gaia will contribute financially to the project, in the same way they would if they proceeded with the construction of the D. António Francisco dos Santos bridge. In fact, the public tender for the design and construction of the road crossing is underway and the winner will be announced in mid-October. The decision on crossings in the Douro is crucial to define the outcome of this procedure, which could be annulled.


Next Wednesday morning, the Prime Minister António Costa and the Minister of Infrastructure and Housing, Pedro Nuno Santos, will be at Invicta (at Campanhã station) to present the new high-speed line between Porto and Lisbon, which , starting in 2030, will connect the two cities in an hour and 15 minutes.


*DISPOSED THE TWIN BRIDGE*


JN found that there are good prospects for the new bridge, which will serve the TGV line between Porto and Lisbon, having an upper deck to accommodate high-speed trains and a lower deck for road transport and pedestrians, approaching Campanhã, in Porto. , from Oliveira do Douro, in Gaia. This being the option, the new bridge would then adopt the name of the former Bishop of Porto who died suddenly in September 2017.


Totally removed is the construction of a twin crossing, attached to the São João bridge (it would be just 25 meters from the current railway crossing), for the TGV. In addition to this proximity, it would have a significant impact on the banks, especially in Gaia, forcing two dozen demolitions in the Quebrantões district to install the pillars and because of the overflight of the deck.


The possibility of widening the deck of the Ponte de São João was also considered and discarded. In addition to de-characterizing one of the engineering gems of Greater Porto (the crossing was designed by engineer Edgar Cardoso, author of Ponte da Arrábida), it would have a very high impact on the operation of the rail network.


At this moment, the new TGV bridge will cross the Douro at about 150 meters from the railway crossing (see infographic) to minimize the visual impact on this work, moving away from the neighborhood and the Quebrantões quay. On the slopes of Gaia, it enters an area practically free of constructions, allowing the tunnel section to be shortened towards Santo Ovídio.


*Impact on the Porto side*


On the bank of Porto, the impact of the new route of the TGV bridge is very similar to that of the twin bridge, however discarded. The high-speed track will be implemented along the North Line (to the south). At Campanhã Station, a new platform will be built between lines 10 and 11, 10 meters wide and 420 meters long, for the TGV. The platform between lines 8 and 9 will also be extended. From here, the TGV leaves for the airport.


*Road crossing*


Announced in 2018, the D. António Francisco dos Santos Bridge would appear a few meters from the new TGV crossing, between the São João and Freixo bridges. The base price of the public design and construction tender is 38.5 million.
Source: Ponte do TGV no Porto deverá ter tabuleiro para automóveis


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

Today the Portuguese Prime Minister held a presentation in Porto (Campanhã Station) of the deadlines for the implementation of High Speed in Portugal.


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*Posted by z0ltan*


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## pai nosso (Sep 4, 2009)

PDF file of the presentation: [Click Here]


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## kokomo (Sep 29, 2009)

So, if I understood correctly, Portugal will built its first true HSL on Iberian gauge rather than UIC, which is the case in Spain. 
Was this always the decision when the project of connecting Lisboa-Badajoz was still up and under development?


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## davide84 (Jun 8, 2008)

It may make sense on the short and probably even medium term, but I hope they somehow took 1435 mm into account for the project...


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## DKF01 (Jan 3, 2014)

The original plan was supposed that all hsl would be in UIC but the financial crisis happened and the project was cancelled.
Now the new project uses iberian gauge as it allows using the alfa/Intercity rolling stock on the line and switch to the conventional line and vice versa. Also its a little less heavy on the budget. Its is expected that the hsl will be converted to UIC in the long term.


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