# How much is your country dominated by its largest city?



## tablemtn (May 2, 2006)

Haiti is an interesting case - Port-au-Prince has around 3 million people, which is about 34% of the entire country's population. But since the road infrastructure is so rough, people in other parts of the country aren't always affected by what goes on in the capital. In fact, when the government collapsed in early 2004, the rebels didn't start in Haiti - they started in the northern city of Cap-Haitien, and moved south until the capital had been taken. 

Port-au-Prince is influential, but for its size, it has remarkably little hold over other parts of the relatively small country.


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## LMCA1990 (Jun 18, 2005)

Bogota's pop is only 1/5 of Colombia. We have 7 other million+ cities.


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## gonzo (Jul 30, 2006)

the Nigel Effect said:


> Toronto really does dominate Canada.





irutavias said:


> Basically, Toronto owns Canada! :lol:


Most 'largest cities' are the financial centres of countries. There are much better examples than Toronto for this thread.

Toronto doesn't "own"/"dominate" Canada....literally nor figuratively.

Torinto has ~5 million people. The rest of Canada has over 25 million...so you could use a better word than 'own' or 'dominate'.


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## noob(but not really) (Feb 3, 2007)

33 million now.

Still, that's about 1/6.


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

Toronto dominates Canada at a level much higher than any American city does with the US. (from a population standpoint).

The closest thing to that south of the border, is BosWash, with it's most liberal definition from Portland to Richmond, which comes up to 53 million people. While that sounds high, that's only about 17% of the nation.

But when it comes to dominating the country, this region is a beast.


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## gonzo (Jul 30, 2006)

noob(but not really) said:


> 33 million now.


I was referring to the "rest" of Canada (not including the GTA).


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## noob(but not really) (Feb 3, 2007)

You still wouldn't be accurate


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## Westsidelife (Nov 26, 2005)

TenRot said:


> But when it comes to dominating the country, this region is a beast.


While the BosWash corridor certainly is the most significant region in the United States, I wouldn't say it _dominates_ the country. There's also California, which happens to be the 6th largest economy in the world.


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## noob(but not really) (Feb 3, 2007)

He was referring to the Toronto area.


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## Westsidelife (Nov 26, 2005)

noob(but not really) said:


> He was referring to the Toronto area.


No, he was talking about the BosWash region.


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## gonzo (Jul 30, 2006)

noob(but not really) said:


> You still wouldn't be accurate


I said "*OVER*" 25 million.

...specifically to avoid this kind of numbers game!



noob(but not really) said:


> He was referring to the Toronto area.


Only a Torontonian could misinterpret what he said.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> Torinto has ~5 million people. The rest of Canada has over 25 million...so you could use a better word than 'own' or 'dominate'.



Naw...Toronto definetely dominates the rest of Canada, and it really has little to do with simply having a large percentage of the population, and more to do with the way it dominates in the media, culture, manufacturing and financial sectors (almost all sectors). 

The perception of this is amplified even more in the ROC because we also happen to be a highly decentalized country and it causes severe resentment of the city because of this.





KGB


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## Occit (Jul 24, 2005)

*Caracas has the most powerful economical and political influence over the rest, nevertheless has a low proportion of population in the country, about 14% of total (btw, urban population in Venezuela rise 94%). *


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

Westsidelife said:


> While the BosWash corridor certainly is the most significant region in the United States, I wouldn't say it _dominates_ the country. There's also California, which happens to be the 6th largest economy in the world.


I never said that there isn't any other regions that are dominant in the rest of the country or that the BosWash region is the most dominant. But there's a lot of evidence of this region being the most influential due to New York and DC alone. But that's if there was actually a region that dominated the US, which there obviously isn't. 

The US has been more evenly dispersed when it comes to population, making dominance of a certain area harder than other areas. Even this region doesn't have 20% of the population, which would be considered a minimum for dominance.

California obviously is very high on the list of significant regions. The San Diego-San Francisco corridor has to be an easy second when it comes to dominance.


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## gonzo (Jul 30, 2006)

KGB said:


> Naw...Toronto definetely dominates the rest of Canada, and it really has little to do with simply having a large percentage of the population, and more to do with the way it dominates in the media, culture, manufacturing and financial sectors (almost all sectors).
> 
> The perception of this is amplified even more in the ROC because we also happen to be a highly decentalized country and it causes severe resentment of the city because of this.
> 
> KGB


Naw...you haven't justified using the word "dominate" (as it pertains to the "ROC" as a whole).

Most 'largest cities' around the world would be better examples of "domination in their country" than Toronto.

Are you blind to the provocative tone you have?...using terms like ROC in an international forum (which nobody has heard of outside of Toronto, but I can guess what it means)....I can only conclude that you think I'm attacking Toronto and this some kind of knee-jerk defense.


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## Coneslammer (Jun 26, 2006)

Some would say that Sydney dominates overseas perception of Australia but domestically not so much. We're not the capital and Melbourne isn't much smaller than us.

However, 9 out of 10 of the richest postcodes in Australia are in Sydney.....


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## Joshapd (May 21, 2004)

Not at all, Amsterdam hardly has more power then Rotterdam, The Hague or even Utrecht. We don't have one big city.


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## nabob (Jun 7, 2006)

mij2 said:


> Not at all, Amsterdam hardly has more power then Rotterdam, The Hague or even Utrecht. We don't have one big city.


Although Amsterdam isn't a big city it is the financial capital of the Netherlands. And when it comes to culture then Amsterdam is the most important city. Maybe the domination of Amsterdam was bigger in the 17th century but you can say this domination still exists. But don't get me wrong; you can't compare the leading role of Amsterdam with the domination over 'their' countries of cities like Paris, London, Copenhagen and Vienna. But compared to the situation in Germany, where no city has all the dominance, you can consider Amsterdam on almost all fronts as the prime city.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> Naw...you haven't justified using the word "dominate" (as it pertains to the "ROC" as a whole).


Well, if you look at the percentage of what sectors I mentioned are located in/around Toronto, you will see it fits the description of "dominate" quite well, especially considering how spread out the country is, and how "regional" it is. 

This isn't a small country where the dominance of a "male monkey" city is not a big problem...this a vast country with wildly different regions that are thousands of kms apart, and are more like sovereign nations. 

This creates a big problem in Canada, and much anomosity all around...concentrating too much in one area creates "haves" and "have-nots", which lead to Toronto growing increasingly pissed-off over transfer payments, and the "Rest of Canada" (sorry for not realizing some of you might not be familiar with local acronyms) resenting us for looming too large on their radar. Toronto's nickname of "Centre of the Universe" was not coined in Toronto, and is not meant to be complimentary either.

Toronto's dominance isn't just physical...it's also highly psychological...and it's not all good.





KGB


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## Gerrad (Dec 17, 2006)

People in Toronto also have much larger penises on average than those in the Rest of Canada, and this causes much resentment as well.


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## MPOWER (Jun 12, 2007)

Berlin dont dominate Germany. In Germany we have a federalism structur. The federal States are dominated by the provincial capitals like Munich, Düsseldorf. But all together Berlin dominate only by Politic. Berlin is economical a dwarf (Per Head income ....). Munich and Munich County (around 1.6 million inhabitants) generate the same GDP as Berlin (3,4 million inhabitants).


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## DiggerD21 (Apr 22, 2004)

Springer has moved its HQ from Hamburg to Berlin already years ago, but Hamburg (and also Munich) remain very important office locations for the company.

As for Berlin's dominance in Germany:

- population of Berlin is 3,4 million, population of whole Germany is 82,3 million. That means 4,1% of Germany's population live in Berlin

- absolute GDP of Berlin is as high as the absolute GDP of Hamburg (1,8 million inhabitants): about 80 billion Euro

- EU-Index GDP/Capita (in PPP): Berlin 101,2 and whole Germany 115,8 (EU-27 = 100). Other cities like Munich, Hamburg, Düsseldorf, Frankfurt, Stuttgart are far wealthier

- Tourists in Berlin in 2006: 7,1 million guests (1/3 of them international guests) with overnight stays, 140 million daily visitors. With this Berlin is far ahead of the follow-ups Munich and Hamburg and is placed 3rd in the EU behind London and Paris.

- Unemployment: Berlin 15,6%, Germany 8,8%

In Conclusion: Berlin is just the political centre of Germany, but economically it pales in comparison to the other major german cities. Oh, and on the cultural aspect it is a big player.


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## tablemtn (May 2, 2006)

How do Germans think of the 'Metropolregion Rhein-Ruhr?' It has over 11 million people, but it includes many cities, and there is no center. It seems similar in some ways to the idea of the Randstad in the Netherlands. It isn't quite a single metro area, but the connections between the cities in the region are important.


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

^^ there's no single one that shines more than the others?


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## cpddavis (Apr 26, 2005)

Toronto is definately the big dog. But I don't think it dominates a la London, Paris, Tokyo or what have you. No North American city does, things are too spread out.

The two cities that most dominate their region in NA are New York and Chicago.


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## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

tablemtn said:


> How do Germans think of the 'Metropolregion Rhein-Ruhr?' It has over 11 million people, but it includes many cities, and there is no center. It seems similar in some ways to the idea of the Randstad in the Netherlands. It isn't quite a single metro area, but the connections between the cities in the region are important.


The randstad has fields in the middle, it's just a string of cities. The Ruhr area is densily populated, the randstad doesn't compare.

Germany is a federation, so by definition it shouldn't have a city dominating the country.


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## MPOWER (Jun 12, 2007)

Before the second WW Berlin dominated Germany but after the war and the divisiveness of Berlin, the biggest companies moved to other Cities and strengthened them. Thats the only reason why we are not dominated by Berlin. But its a tragedy what happened to Berlin, from the richest City in the world by per head capita (1938/1939 the war industry pushed the income) to a middle income city in german average ...


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## LosAngelesSportsFan (Oct 20, 2004)

cpddavis said:


> Toronto is definately the big dog. But I don't think it dominates a la London, Paris, Tokyo or what have you. No North American city does, things are too spread out.
> 
> The two cities that most dominate their region in NA are New York and Chicago.


i would think LA and Mexico City would have something to say about that..


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## LordMandeep (Apr 10, 2006)

I say NY, LA, Chic and then Mexico city


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## oliver999 (Aug 4, 2006)

most country dominated by the largest city in the country, except usa ,india and china.


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## LMCA1990 (Jun 18, 2005)

Argentina, Chile, Paraguay, Peru and Uruguay are very centralized. Their capitals are 1/3 of the country.


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## vanhattan (Aug 7, 2006)

*Vancouver*

I do not believe that Canada is dominated by its largest cities. I think Montreal and Toronto, primarily due to their population size, have a nice influence on the country. Having said that, I think that the western province cities and prairie cities are extremely independent and almost operate as city/province states. For example, I really don't think that Vancouver or Calgary really care what happens in the East, as long as it does not step on their toes.


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## Jibran (Jun 4, 2007)

*Karachi*

Karachi's current population is estimated to be 20 million Pakistan has an estimated population of 161,161,000 
Karachi is the financial capital of Pakistan; it accounts for the lion's share of GDP and revenue. It generates approximately 65% (as of 1999) of the total national revenue


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

Lima holds 27% of the Peruvian population, 40% of its GDP and 60% of its industrial output. 

In South America the centralized countries are the ones of the South Cone: Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and Paraguay. Plus Peru. 

While the non-centralized countries are Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador, Brazil and Bolivia.

Highest % of people living in a single city "The Economist- World in Figures 2005"

Beirut- Lebanon 60%
Kuwait City- Kuwait 46%
Brazzaville- Congo 43%
Panama City- Panama 41%
Montevideo- Uruguay 40%
Lisbon- Portugal 39%
Yerevan- Armenia 37%
Santiago-Chile 36%
San Juan- Puerto Rico 35%
Dubai-UAE 34%
Tel Aviv- Israel 33%
Tripoli - Libya 33%
Buenos Aires- Argentina 32%
Riga- Latvia 31%
Santo Domingo- Dominican Republic 31%
Ulan Bator- Mongolia 30%
Athens- Greece 29%
Auckland- New Zealand 29%
Guatemala City- Guatemala 28%
Lima- Peru 27%
.
.

Europe
Stockholm - Sweden 22%
Paris- France 21%
London - UK 17%
Madrid- Spain 14%
Rome - Italy 9%
Moscow - Russia 7%
Berlin - Germany 6% 

Latin America (others)
Guayaquil - Ecuador 25%
Bogota - Colombia 19%
Caracas- Venezuela 14%
Sao Paulo - Brazil 12%


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## GrigorisSokratis (Apr 6, 2005)

In Greece (a country of 12 millions), despite Athens (a city of 5 millions) holds the 40% of the population; almost every aspect of life is shared with the second largest city, Thessaloniki (1.1 millions) a city located 500 kms north of Athens, which dominates mostly in the northern regions of Greece like Macedonia, Thrace and parts of Epirus. This second city also holds a high economical and industrial influence.


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## flesh_is_weak (Jun 16, 2006)

very much. it sucks to hear foreigners say that "Manila is the Philippines"


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

Thailand is also very centralized in Bangkok.
Indonesia in Jakarta.
Egypt in Cairo (some small competition form Alexandria)

In South Africa almost everything is Jo´burg and Cape Town.
In Brazil Sampa and Rio dominate.
DF in Mexico recieves no competition from Guadalajara and Monterrey.
In India no city reaches Mumbai.
Nigeria is Lagos.
Turkey has Istambul dominating economically, socially, culturaly and commercially and Ankara making the political decisions.


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## irutavias (Jul 15, 2007)

vanhattan said:


> I do not believe that Canada is dominated by its largest cities. I think Montreal and Toronto, primarily due to their population size, have a nice influence on the country. Having said that, I think that the western province cities and prairie cities are extremely independent and almost operate as city/province states. For example, I really don't think that Vancouver or Calgary really care what happens in the East, as long as it does not step on their toes.


Montreal comes nowhere near Toronto in terms of importance. Sure, Western cities can be considered independent because they are so far away from the GTA. Toronto is definitely the commercial and financial capital of Canada. Toronto dominates Canada in almost every way (size/population/business/commerce), and this fact won't change anytime soon.


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## Riise (Nov 12, 2006)

vanhattan said:


> I do not believe that Canada is dominated by its largest cities. I think Montreal and Toronto, primarily due to their population size, have a nice influence on the country. Having said that, I think that the western province cities and prairie cities are extremely independent and almost operate as city/province states. For example, I really don't think that Vancouver or Calgary really care what happens in the East, as long as it does not step on their toes.


I completely agree with you, I think you've hit the nail on the head. While Toronto might dominate the media and have a lot of political influence due to their large size, I don't think you can say they have an outright domination of the nation. Although it may seem as though they get what they want during budget time, it's not as if what they say goes. In addition, people in the Pacific and West really don't care what goes on in the East. I guess it's a combination of learning to ignore and self-interest, that is due to our independence which is partially caused by the size of the country. Personally, I think Canada should split up into multiple sovereign countries and have a Canadian Union modelled after the E.U..

So in short, while Toronto demands a lot of attention and wields a certain amount of power, similar to cities that do dominate their countries, I don't think they dominate Canada. The size of other Canadian cities and the country itself prevents Toronto from being a completely dominant city. Close but no cigar...


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## Riise (Nov 12, 2006)

irutavias said:


> Toronto is definitely the commercial and financial capital of Canada. Toronto dominates Canada in almost every way (size/population/business/commerce), and this fact won't change anytime soon.


My friend, there is a difference between leading and dominating. You talk as if the activities you mentioned don't even occur in areas outside of Toronto.


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## LordMandeep (Apr 10, 2006)

I say Toronto leads in economic and cultural importance but of course commerce and culture does exist outside of it as well in Montreal, Vancouver and Calgary mostly. 


In Size the metro area is only comparable by Montreal really in size and in population really..

Vancouver and Calgary are still much smaller. 


However Montreal due it being the capital of French Canada is really important culturally really.

Toronto does not dominate Culturally imo but its the clear leader.


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## gonzo (Jul 30, 2006)

KGB said:


> Well, if you look at the percentage of what sectors I mentioned are located in/around Toronto, you will see it fits the description of "dominate" quite well,* especially considering how spread out the country is, and how "regional" it is.*


The thread title doesn't read in brackets "...(in relation to how spread-out your country is)".

*Riise* pointed it out well that there's a difference between leading and dominating an entire country. 

Your logic would suggest that ~30 years ago Montreal was "superior" to ROC(including the GTA) and then Toronto rather suddenly "owned" not only Montreal but the entire country to boot.

I can tell you as an Ottawa resident we view Toronto much like an 'Anglophone Montreal' and Montreal a lot like a 'Francophone Toronto'. The culture and media we get here is primarily New York/Los Angeles, often re-programed via Toronto and Montreal.

Some of the self-perceptions I'm hearing from Torontonians have been disappointingly unexpected and borderline nauseating....the perceptions, not reality.


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## phubben (Aug 5, 2005)

Paris (about 20% of the country's population) really dominates the rest of France!

Unlike the US there's almost no local media in France... The 2nd largest private TV channel (M6) just has a 10 minute (per weekday) local news edition (in Bordeaux, Lille, Lyon, Marseille, Nancy and Toulouse) and France 3 (2nd public TV channel) has really crappy ******* local shows.

We even have a word in French to describe everything that is not Paris, nor its suburbs : "Province" (they sometimes say "Régions" too).


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## Gaeus (Mar 21, 2007)

Gaeus said:


> In US, there are lots of competition between states and its cities so there are no domination here. However, regionally, there are some domination going on with cities.
> 
> Here is the list:
> 
> ...


Quoting my own post to clarify the issue :lol: 

Once again, I am not saying there are domination but its clear to say that there are regional cities that is always at the "top". I have to clarify the South Midwest. It is much more like South Central. I forgot to mention Houston in that region . For the Southwest, I always thought the whole CA so as the other states such NV, NM, UT and AZ. So I have put LA and SF but Phoenix is the top in the desert region. I am kind of surprise no one in Portland disagree with me putting Seattle on Northwest region. However, in case of Philly, I know you dominate the PA, central and south NJ area but regionally, which is compose of NY, CT, NJ, PA, OH, DE and even the New England area, I believe New York is always at the top or dominates but its just my opinion. I forgot to put Washington DC as the region the city thats always at the top of East Central (VA, WV, MD, DC) but Baltimore is fairly close. Again, this is just my opinion so free to reconsider other cities.


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## LeB-iT (May 3, 2006)

about 70% (about 2.5 million) of the Lebanese population lives in Beirut and it's surrounding areas...so basically Beirut=Lebanon


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

phubben said:


> Paris (about 20% of the country's population) really dominates the rest of France!
> 
> Unlike the US there's almost no local media in France... The 2nd largest private TV channel (M6) just has a 10 minute (per weekday) local news edition (in Bordeaux, Lille, Lyon, Marseille, Nancy and Toulouse) and France 3 (2nd public TV channel) has really crappy ******* local shows.
> 
> We even have a word in French to describe everything that is not Paris, nor its suburbs : "Province" (they sometimes say "Régions" too).


but there's local radio stations and newspapers...


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## phubben (Aug 5, 2005)

PeterGabriel said:


> but there's local radio stations and newspapers...


That's true, I was more thinking about the lack of investment of national media groups outside Paris.


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

phubben said:


> We even have a word in French to describe everything that is not Paris, nor its suburbs : "Province" (they sometimes say "Régions" too).


The same here in Peru, everything out of Lima is "Provincia", in recent years (due to decentralize process) they are called "Regiones", but most people still call them "provincias" although the official name for the political division of the country has been "departamentos".


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

According to World Gazeteer, the Mogadishu area has around *27%* of Somalia's population, with that area having around 3.3m out of total population of almost 12.5m. Somalia has one of the more centralized populations in East Africa, and is actually more urbanized than most countries there.

Economically, it's much more balanced due to Mogadishu's situation, the north is more richer, relatively speaking since the whole nation is quite poor.

I would take all population estimates of Somalia with a grain of salt. There hasn't been a census since 1975 (when the always posted population of ~7-10 was released) and due to the situation. It's likely more or less.


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## Mr. B (Feb 24, 2007)

Round about 45% of Scotlands Population lives in Greater Glasgow.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> Your logic would suggest that ~30 years ago Montreal was "superior" to ROC(including the GTA) and then Toronto rather suddenly "owned" not only Montreal but the entire country to boot.



That's not my "logic" at all. Far as i can tell, we are talking about presently...not 30 years ago...but even if we were, there's nothing much different about 30 years ago either...Toronto did not take over any roles from Montreal in the interim. Quebec is somewhat shielded by Toronto's influence because of the language barrier, but influences are not always obvious.




> Some of the self-perceptions I'm hearing from Torontonians have been disappointingly unexpected and borderline nauseating



Clearly proving my earlier point regarding attitudes towards Toronto....resentment and denial. Remember, I don't think Toronto's dominance is good at all for Canada...it's not something I'm bragging about, yet you react like it was.





KGB


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## clive3300 (Dec 30, 2006)

sebvill said:


> In South Africa almost everything is Jo´burg and Cape Town.


I would say just Joburg. Although the legislature sits in CapeTown, the country is administered in Pretoria which isnt far off a satellite city of Joburg. Joburg dominates pretty much everything else. Cape Town is very pretty and world famous, but its fame is relatively way out of scale to its real influence and importance.

Greater Joburg metro is something like 40% national GDP and something like 15% GDP of the entire continent of Africa.


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## pau_p1 (Apr 30, 2004)

Well.. Metro Manila holds about 20% of the 88.7M (2007 est) population of the Philippines.. and it's land area is just .5% of the whole country's land area...

Metro Manila is the capital region of the Philippines where the city of Manila, the capital city, is situated....


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## Avens (Jan 19, 2006)

clive3300 said:


> Greater Joburg metro is something like 15% GDP of the entire continent of Africa.


That's pretty phenomenal.

Your original point though, I'd say Cape Town has a fair cultural influence on the rest of the country.


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## Jünyus Brütüs (Jul 9, 2007)

Istanbul is meaning many things for Turkey and about 12% of the population live in Istanbul.


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## bryson662001 (Nov 3, 2005)

NY dominates the US only because it is the media capital......but if it disappeared tommorow most Americans wouldn't be affected. And if we could make the media disappear, no one would know NY was missing.


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## muc (Sep 29, 2005)

> How do Germans think of the 'Metropolregion Rhein-Ruhr?' It has over 11 million people, but it includes many cities, and there is no center.


That is a quite diverse region. It does not have any significant centralized administration. In fact there is often a notable rivalry between some of its cities.

The "Ruhr" area between Duisburg and Dortmund was the German center for coal mining and heavy industry. The decline of these industries after the 1960es gave this region the image of the "rust belt" of Germany with structural problems and high unemployment. This image still exists (to some extent) today in the minds of many Germans despite the fact that there has been quite some efforts to diversify the industry there and the steel industry running quite well again.

The situation is quite different along the Rhine with cities like Duesseldorf and Cologne that are quite wealthy and have a high media profile.

There is really no city or region that one could say being dominant in Germany. Berlin is of couse the political center and also culturally a heavyweight. Frankfurt is the city of finance. Munich and Stuttgart are economical powerhouses (but not the only ones). The federal courts reside in Karlsruhe. Several federal agencies are littered over Germany (though there is a tendency to move towards Berlin). Media are strong in Hamburg, Cologne, Munich and Berlin. Hamburg is of course strong in trade, being the main seaport.


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## gonzo (Jul 30, 2006)

KGB said:


> ...there's nothing much different *about 30 years ago* either...Toronto did not take over any roles from Montreal *in the interim.*
> KGB


:?...

Wikipedia:

_*The mid-1970s* ushered in a period of wide-ranging social and political changes, stemming in large part from the concerns of the French-Canadian majority about the conservation of their culture and language, given the traditional predominance of the English-Canadian minority in the business arena. The October Crisis and the election of the separatist political party, the Parti Québécois, resulted in major political, ethnic and linguistic shifts. *The extent of the transition was greater than the norm for major urban centres, with social and economic impacts, as a significant number of (mostly anglophone) Montrealers, as well as businesses, migrated to other provinces, away from an uncertain political climate*. Bill 101 was passed in 1977 and gave primacy to French as Quebec's (and Montreal's) only official language for government, the main language of business and culture, and enforced the exclusive use of French for public signage and business communication.

*By the 1980s*, Toronto had surpassed Montreal as Canada's *most populous city and the chief economic hub*. During this time, in part due to the political uncertainty raised by the resurgence of the Quebec sovereignty movement, many national and multinational corporations moved their head offices from Montreal to Toronto and other western Canadian cities._




KGB said:


> Clearly proving my earlier point regarding attitudes towards Toronto....resentment and denial.


Yes, I clearly resent and deny the *perceptions* of some Torontonians. I'm perfectly fine with *reality* though....Unfortunately, I don't think that was the point you were attempting to prove.



KGB said:


> Remember, I don't think Toronto's dominance is good at all for Canada.


But would it be good for Toronto itself (*if* Toronto were to dominate the 'ROC' in the distant future)?



KGB said:


> ...it's not something I'm bragging about, yet you react like it was.


Brag all you want. I just wouldn't want our forumers to be misinformed with exaggerations.

As an Ottawa resident, I would react the same if a fellow Ottawa forumer started saying "Ottawa controls Canada because the country's most important decision-makers are here"...when clearly certain Canadian cities such as Toronto are more important overall.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

> How much is your country dominated by its largest city?


Hmmmm, well where I live, it depends on which country up here's being spoken about . . .


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## Girlyman (Aug 8, 2006)

I think it is hard for any federation to be dominated by its largest city due to the decentralisation of power. This is why Germany, The US and Australia are not dominated at all by their respective largest cities. 

It is interesting that external perceptions can be very different from the actual situation. To an outsider, NY, Berlin and Sydney appear more important to their respective countries than they actually are.


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## vancouverite/to'er (Apr 22, 2007)

cpddavis said:


> Toronto is definately the big dog. But I don't think it dominates a la London, Paris, Tokyo or what have you. No North American city does, things are too spread out.
> 
> The two cities that most dominate their region in NA are New York and Chicago.


I would have to say Toronto definetly dominates central Canada (Ontario and Manitoba)


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## Gerrad (Dec 17, 2006)

Manitoba isn't central Canada. Ontario and Quebec are. Rife and petty regionalism in Canada prevents most Canadians outside of Toronto from understanding what dominance truly means. But culturally, economically, media and population wise, Toronto does dominate the English speaking (and whatever else -excluding French Canada) portion of the country by virtue of its size and CONCENTRATION in these areas. In terms of population it's closest rival Montreal has almost 2 million citizens less.

It's a monster (in Canada); comparably New York would have to have over 60 million people in its environs for the same situation in the U.S. to occur.

However, that dominance does not mean the rest of the country takes its cues from Toronto (which is probably the basis for most disagreement on this thread) -it just means when they turn on their t.v.s or read their papers, the vast majority of national stories or those about Canada have a Toronto-centric bent.

Canadians just need to get over it. Their regionalism is only second to their anti-Americanism as their most annoying trait.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

phubben said:


> Paris (about 20% of the country's population) really dominates the rest of France!


Yeah, I've been gathering that France/Paris has been having this really bad over the last few centuries. I gather it's most played out between the municipal and national governments right there in the capital. I'm left witht he impression that it can become *real* nasty there.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Gerrad said:


> Canadians just need to get over it. Their regionalism is only second to their anti-Americanism as their most annoying trait.


Canadians certainly do need to get over their petty unconstructive regionalism, but anti-American? Criticizing unacceptable behaviour from our neighbour doesn't make Canadians anti-American, it's called standing up for what you believe in. That characterization is so insulting and off the mark. If a friend (or stranger) is guilty of poor judgment or destructive behaviour, you call them on it. I expect the same from Americans regarding Canada, but wouldn't label an American anti-Canadian for doing so.

This irritating refusal to accept any criticism is getting so tiring. You make the bed you sleep in.

Back to the topic at hand: Canadians bemoan the extent to which Toronto dominates Canada, but it is a reality in most countries that the major city dominates. Very few countries have alot of major cities that compete for influence. Canada is actually less dominated by Toronto than France is by Paris, or Britain is by London. Toronto only surpassed Montreal 30 years ago as the nation's largest and most important city. The massive size of the nation has created spheres of influence that diminish Toronto's clout. Linguistic divisions further erode this position. Oil wealth has given rise to the emergence of Calgary which punches far above its weight due to staggering wealth, a booming population, and political ambitions. No city will rival Toronto any time soon, but there are other cities that have influence and lessen what would otherwise be, utter dominance by Toronto.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> Toronto only surpassed Montreal 30 years ago as the nation's largest and most important city.



Montreal was not a larger and more important city than Toronto 30 years ago. 

Maybe 130 years ago. 

People overestimate the affect of the move down the 401 when the PQ took power, and misunderstand CMA populations (Toronto being land-locked inside other CMAs).





KGB


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## Streuth (Jul 4, 2007)

Sydney is the international face of Australia. However, Australia like Canada and the US is a federal system and consists of six state and two territories. Each state has a capital city and these capital cities definitely dominate their respective state. I pulled the following numbers from the Australian Bureau of Statistics website showing the 2004 and projected 2051 populations for each capital city and there respective state.

This shows that, for example, Melbourne currently makes up 72% of the population of the state of Victoria, Adelaide is 73% of the state of South Australia, and Perth is 74% of the state of Western Australia. Sydney is the capital of New South Wales, which is a bit more decentralised with Sydney contribution 63% of the states population. Queensland is the most decentralised of the large states, Brisbane making up 46% of the population. By 2051, each of the capital cities is projected increase in size relative to the population of the states. The combined capita city population as a percentage of the total population of Australia is projected to increase from 64% to 66%. The largest growth is expected to occur in Brisbane. But overall, the population growth is only moderate by world standards.



```
2004	2051
	                                      Observed 	Series B 
Capital city/balance of state 	              '000 	'000 
Sydney 	                                       4,225	5,609
Total New South Wales 	                       6,721	8,743
Melbourne 	                               3,593	5,041
Total Victoria 	                               4,963	6,574
Brisbane 	                               1,778	3,355
Total Queensland 	                       3,888	6,899
Adelaide 	                               1,123	1,204
Total South Australia 	                       1,533	1,581
Perth 	                                       1,455	2,454
Total Western Australia 	               1,978	3,165
Hobart 	                                         202	  220
Total Tasmania 	                                 482	  453
Darwin 	                                         109	  232
Total Northern Territory 	                 200	  350
Total Australian Capital Territory 	         324	  402
Total capital cities(b) 	              12,809   18,516
Total balance of state 	                       7,280	9,650
Australia(c) 	                              20,092   28,170
```


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

KGB said:


> Montreal was not a larger and more important city than Toronto 30 years ago.
> 
> Maybe 130 years ago.
> 
> ...


I haven't been able to find any information to back that up. Could you find me a link. Every source I have found indicates the same thing: that Toronto surpassed Montreal in the late 1970's to become the largest city in Canada. 

It is true that Scarborough, North York, East York, Etobicoke, York, and Toronto merged to form one larger jurisdiction, but to the best of my knowledge, all surrounding areas that are relevant to the central city of Toronto have always been included in the figure used by Statistics Canada in compiling a Census Metroplitan Area total for Toronto. The smaller central City of Toronto figure that hovers around 600,000 has never been used in comparing the metro area of Toronto with that of other Canadian cities. All has been included in the total figure.

Even today, the separate jurisdiction of Mississauga is not given a CMA designation, but is included as part of the CMA of Toronto. Toronto is not boxed in by other CMA's, and has not been boxed in like that as you contend. The same is done for all metropolitan areas of Canada to avoid exactly what you are arguing.


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