# Did Boston just become the 5th largest metro in the U.S.??



## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

^^ Yeah, the independence is a little too much if you ask me...

But at least (AFAIK) Massachusetts and New Hampshire still have county governments that still give a semblance of unity, if there is no real unity is there in reality...Connecticut has not had county governments as long as I remember, if ever...

Here, every town is like it's own county, and every inter-town project takes longer to implement just because, unlike in other parts of the US, there is no single unit...if you ask me, it's what is holding New England back, except for the obvious high costs and low job growth...


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## Cloudship (Jun 8, 2005)

Mass no longer has County government. Which makes sense since other state's counties are more the size of our state anyway. I think the problem with inter-community projects comes down to just plain stubornness and that darn independence thing - people just won't share.

Personally I think that also makes New England better in some strengths. Yes, it does have some serious drawbacks, but it also means we have better (though not perfect) control on sprawl, personal identity, I would dare say better quality of life, and while I think more expensive, we have better schools and homes.


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

^^ All counties in Mass?...yesterday, I was in Springfield and I saw the Hampden County Courthouse and a cop car that was the county sheriff...

Connecticut has none of those...Hartford County does not exist, it's just on the map.


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## bayviews (Mar 3, 2006)

rotten777 said:


> ^^ All counties in Mass?...yesterday, I was in Springfield and I saw the Hampden County Courthouse and a cop car that was the county sheriff...
> 
> Connecticut has none of those...Hartford County does not exist, it's just on the map.


Counties are weak in all the New England states. But at least in Massachusetts, the county do run the courts, the jails, & of course voters elect the county sheriff. 

Do the cities run these functions in Connecticut?


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## bayviews (Mar 3, 2006)

rotten777 said:


> ^^ All counties in Mass?...yesterday, I was in Springfield and I saw the Hampden County Courthouse and a cop car that was the county sheriff...
> 
> Connecticut has none of those...Hartford County does not exist, it's just on the map.


Counties are weak in all the New England states. But at least in Massachusetts, the counties do run the courts, the jails, & of course voters elect the county sheriff. 

Do the cities manage these functions in Connecticut?


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

There are no county courts, there are state courts scattered throughout the state...the state also runs the jails as well...there are no sheriffs...

Every podnuk town has it's own police, fire department, school district, it's ridiculous...but some rural areas do share these services...no cities though.


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## Darrell (Oct 22, 2002)

Here is a link describing the changes to CSAs. This happened in December 2005. Interestingly enough, the addition of Providence to Boston did not include Providence in the title. The new CSA is named Boston-Worcester-Manchester, MA-RI-NH. That is a mistake IMO. It should either be:

Boston-Worcester-Providence or Boston-Providence-Manchester.

Link: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/bulletins/fy2006/b06-01_rev_2.pdf SEE PAGE 4


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## Darrell (Oct 22, 2002)

These are the new rankings of Combined Statistical Areas for 2005. Note that this ranking does not include Metropolitan Statistical Areas that are not part of Combined Statistical Areas such as Miami, Phoenix, San Antonio, etc.

Note that Boston is at #5, including Providence and Philadelphia has jumped back ahead of Dallas-Fort Worth due to the addition of the Reading MSA. Also notable is the jump in CSA population for Knoxville, TN and Youngstown, OH with their additions.

New York-Newark-Bridgeport, NY-NJ-CT-PA	21903623
Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside, CA	17629607
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City, IL-IN-WI	9661840
Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV	8125656
Boston-Worcester-Manchester, MA-RI-NH	7427336
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA	7168176
Philadelphia-Camden-Vineland, PA-NJ-DE-MD	6372799
Dallas-Fort Worth, TX	6171301
Detroit-Warren-Flint, MI	5428000
Houston-Baytown-Huntsville, TX	5380661
Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Gainesville, GA-AL	5249121
Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia, WA	3806453
Minneapolis-St. Paul-St. Cloud, MN-WI	3467108
Cleveland-Akron-Elyria, OH	2931774
Denver-Aurora-Boulder, CO1	2869377
St. Louis-St. Charles-Farmington, MO-IL	2840179
Pittsburgh-New Castle, PA	2478883
Sacramento--Arden-Arcade--Truckee, CA-NV	2187694
Charlotte-Gastonia-Salisbury, NC-SC	2120745
Cincinnati-Middletown-Wilmington, OH-KY-IN	2113011
Kansas City-Overland Park-Kansas City, MO-KS	2015282
Orlando-The Villages, FL	1997437
Indianapolis-Anderson-Columbus, IN	1958453
Columbus-Marion-Chillicothe, OH	1936351
Las Vegas-Paradise-Pahrump, NV	1751028
Milwaukee-Racine-Waukesha, WI	1708563
Salt Lake City-Ogden-Clearfield, UT	1586740
Raleigh-Durham-Cary, NC	1509560
Nashville-Davidson--Murfreesboro--Columbia, TN	1498836
Greensboro--Winston-Salem--High Point, NC	1490886
New Orleans-Metairie-Bogalusa, LA	1363990
Louisville-Jefferson County--Elizabethtown--Scottsburg, KY-IN	1342918
Grand Rapids-Muskegon-Holland, MI	1315319
Hartford-West Hartford-Willimantic, CT	1304067
Buffalo-Niagara-Cattaraugus, NY	1230213
Oklahoma City-Shawnee, OK	1225084
Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson, SC	1185534
Birmingham-Hoover-Cullman, AL	1170012
Albany-Schenectady-Amsterdam, NY	1145666
Rochester-Batavia-Seneca Falls, NY	1133140
Dayton-Springfield-Greenville, OH	1078634
Fresno-Madera, CA	1020372
Knoxville-Sevierville-La Follette, TN	993761
Tulsa-Bartlesville, OK	936864
Omaha-Council Bluffs-Fremont, NE-IA	849248
Little Rock-North Little Rock-Pine Bluff, AR	819469
Baton Rouge-Pierre Part, LA	756998
Syracuse-Auburn, NY	733217
Columbia-Newberry, SC	727128
Toledo-Fremont, OH	718372
Youngstown-Warren-East Liverpool, OH-PA	704096
Chattanooga-Cleveland-Athens, TN-GA	651489
Harrisburg-Carlisle-Lebanon, PA	647390
Lexington-Fayette--Frankfort--Richmond, KY	635642
Wichita-Winfield, KS	622353
Portland-Lewiston-South Portland, ME	622266
Madison-Baraboo, WI	594785
Des Moines-Newton-Pella, IA	593112
Deltona-Daytona Beach-Palm Coast, FL	566465
Fort Wayne-Huntington-Auburn, IN	565606
Mobile-Daphne-Fairhope, AL	564013
Jackson-Yazoo City, MS	550775
Lansing-East Lansing-Owosso, MI	528260
Lafayette-Acadiana, LA	526896
Huntsville-Decatur, AL	517006
York-Hanover-Gettysburg, PA	508550
Johnson City-Kingsport-Bristol (Tri-Cities), TN-VA	490238
Corpus Christi-Kingsville, TX	444727
Reno-Sparks-Fernley, NV	441461
Rockford-Freeport-Rochelle, IL	441433
Columbus-Auburn-Opelika, GA-AL	430363
Shreveport-Bossier City-Minden, LA	424589
Asheville-Brevard, NC	422457
Gulfport-Biloxi-Pascagoula, MS	412582
Montgomery-Alexander City, AL	409123
Peoria-Canton, IL	406869
Brownsville-Harlingen-Raymondville, TX	398693
Savannah-Hinesville-Fort Stewart, GA	382510
Macon-Warner Robins-Fort Valley, GA	379669
Appleton-Oshkosh-Neenah, WI	374625
Saginaw-Bay City-Saginaw Township North, MI	317385
Myrtle Beach-Conway-Georgetown, SC	287975
Lubbock-Levelland, TX	281757
Longview-Marshall, TX	264960
Midland-Odessa, TX	246710
Tyler-Jacksonville, TX	239058
Dothan-Enterprise-Ozark, AL	230909
Lake Charles-Jennings, LA	226249
Lafayette-Frankfort, IN	217431
Claremont-Lebanon, NH-VT	215064
Fargo-Wahpeton, ND-MN	208999
Monroe-Bastrop, LA	201127
Eau Claire-Menomonie, WI	195747
Albany-Corvallis-Lebanon, OR	187554
Fond du Lac-Beaver Dam, WI	187440
Lima-Van Wert-Wapakoneta, OH	182630
Santa Fe-Espanola, NM	181683
Sunbury-Lewisburg-Selinsgrove, PA	173948
Mansfield-Bucyrus, OH	173723
Salisbury-Ocean Pines, MD	164997
Lumberton-Laurinburg, NC	164766
Bend-Prineville, OR	163449
Wausau-Merrill, WI	159260
Jackson-Humboldt, TN	159005
Idaho Falls-Blackfoot, ID	157175
Williamsport-Lock Haven, PA	155834
Sioux City-Vermillion, IA-NE-SD	155566
Jonesboro-Paragould, AR	151485
Fairmont-Clarksburg, WV	148645
Ithaca-Cortland, NY	148640
Kokomo-Peru, IN	136982
Paducah-Mayfield, KY-IL	135708
Cape Girardeau-Sikeston-Jackson, MO-IL	133556
Findlay-Tiffin, OH	130986
Beckley-Oak Hill, WV	125990
Ames-Boone, IA	106554
Corbin-London, KY	94367
Fort Polk South-De Ridder, LA	83307
Columbus-West Point, MS	81118
Union City-Martin, TN-KY	73162
Clovis-Portales, NM	64084


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## Darrell (Oct 22, 2002)

This is the new ranking of all CSAs and MSAs over 1,000,000 based on 2005 estimates from the census bureau.

1. New York-Newark-Bridgeport, NY-NJ-CT-PA 21903623
2. Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside, CA 17629607
3. Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City, IL-IN-WI 9661840
4. Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV 8125656
5. Boston-Worcester-Manchester, MA-RI-NH 7427336
6. San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA 7168176
7. Philadelphia-Camden-Vineland, PA-NJ-DE-MD 6372799
8. Dallas-Fort Worth, TX 6171301
9. Detroit-Warren-Flint, MI 5428000
10. Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Miami Beach, FL 5422200
11. Houston-Baytown-Huntsville, TX 5380661
12.Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Gainesville, GA-AL 5249121
13. Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ 3865077
14. Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia, WA 3806453
15. Minneapolis-St. Paul-St. Cloud, MN-WI 3467108
16. San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA 2933462
17. Cleveland-Akron-Elyria, OH 2931774
18. Denver-Aurora-Boulder, CO1 2869377
19. St. Louis-St. Charles-Farmington, MO-IL 2840179
20. Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL 2647658
21. Pittsburgh-New Castle, PA 2478883
22. Sacramento--Arden-Arcade--Truckee, CA-NV 2187694
23. Charlotte-Gastonia-Salisbury, NC-SC 2120745
24. Cincinnati-Middletown-Wilmington, OH-KY-IN 2113011
25. Portland-Vancouver-Beaverton, OR-WA 2095861
26. Kansas City-Overland Park-Kansas City, MO-KS 2015282
27. Orlando-The Villages, FL 1997437
28. Indianapolis-Anderson-Columbus, IN 1958453
29. Columbus-Marion-Chillicothe, OH 1936351
30. San Antonio, TX 1889797
31. Las Vegas-Paradise-Pahrump, NV 1751028
32. Milwaukee-Racine-Waukesha, WI 1708563
33. Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC 1647346
34. Salt Lake City-Ogden-Clearfield, UT 1586740
35. Raleigh-Durham-Cary, NC 1509560
36. Nashville-Davidson--Murfreesboro--Columbia, TN 1498836
37. Greensboro--Winston-Salem--High Point, NC 1490886
38. Austin, TX 1452529
39. New Orleans-Metairie-Bogalusa, LA 1363990
40. Louisville-Jefferson County--Elizabethtown--Scottsburg, KY-IN 1342918
41. Grand Rapids-Muskegon-Holland, MI 1315319
42. Hartford-West Hartford-Willimantic, CT 1304067
43. Memphis, TN-MS-AR 1260905
44. Jacksonville, FL 1248371
45. Buffalo-Niagara-Cattaraugus, NY 1230213
46. Oklahoma City-Shawnee, OK 1225084
47. Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson, SC 1185534
48. Richmond, VA 1175654
49. Birmingham-Hoover-Cullman, AL 1170012
50. Albany-Schenectady-Amsterdam, NY 1145666
51. Rochester-Batavia-Seneca Falls, NY 1133140
52. Dayton-Springfield-Greenville, OH 1078634
53. Fresno-Madera, CA 1020372


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## great prairie (Jul 18, 2005)

rofl.....


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## Used Napkin (Sep 13, 2006)

Boston is nowhere near 7 million, under any definition.

It should be any year now when New York and Philly meld into a CMSA.


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## Shawn (Nov 12, 2002)

Under the Census' CMA definition - the same definition every other CMA in the country fall under - it most certainly is.


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## Used Napkin (Sep 13, 2006)

Shawn said:


> Under the Census' CMA definition - the same definition every other CMA in the country fall under - it most certainly is.


Umm, no.....unless they managed to change the definition in the span of a year to mean something else completely different, which tells me that is not the case since most of the other CSMA look OK.

If Boston has 7 million, then New York has 28 million.

The proposition is ridiculous to even entertain.


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## Shawn (Nov 12, 2002)

Sigh. 

CSMAs haven't existed since the 2000 Census. CSAs - Combined Statistical Areas - replaced CSMAs once New England states stopped using individual municipalities and started using counties like the rest of the country does to define its metropolitan areas.

A county is considered part of a CSA if 15% of its workforce commutes to a core county or an outlying county in which 15% of _its_ workforce commutes to the core county, etc. As at least 15% of Bristol County, Mass commutes to both Boston core counties _and Providence core counties_, the two areas have been combined.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/estimates/Estimates pages_final.html

Click on the last data grouping's CSV (CSA-alldata) and look for data set 148 (Boston-Worcester-Manchester, MA-RI-NH",Combined Statistical Area) for the complete breakdown of the new CMA, which does in fact have slightly less than 7.5 million people. And please note that the link above is to the US Census' official website.

EDIT: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/bulletins/fy2006/b06-01_rev_2.pdf

Much easier to read, see page 5, "New Components of Existing Combined Statistical Areas."


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## PeterSmith (Jul 6, 2005)

Darrell said:


> These are the new rankings of Combined Statistical Areas for 2005. Note that this ranking does not include Metropolitan Statistical Areas that are not part of Combined Statistical Areas such as Miami, Phoenix, San Antonio, etc.


I don't want to highjack this thread away from Boston, but can anybody explain to me why my home of Miami is not a CSA? The Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-Miami Beach "MSA" includes all people living in Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach Counties, which stretches roughly 140 miles north to south an encompasses a land area of 5,537 sq.mi. It includes several cities with populations over 100,000 (Miami, Miami Beach, Ft. Lauderdale, Boca Raton, Hollywood, West Palm Beach). What keeps this massive area from being split up, when smaller denser areas are divided all the time?


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## Used Napkin (Sep 13, 2006)

Shawn said:


> Sigh.
> 
> CSMAs haven't existed since the 2000 Census. CSAs - Combined Statistical Areas - replaced CSMAs once New England states stopped using individual municipalities and started using counties like the rest of the country does to define its metropolitan areas.
> 
> ...


Semantics.....CMSAs has not been replaced by CSAs, that still does not explain the inflated figure for Boston.

The Census is notorious for providing bad information, as they took forever in including the West Palm Beach into the Miami CSA. And, as Peter Smith correctly pointed out, Miami IS indeed a CSA (and they are a CSA as they are home to 3 large MSAs).

Referencing the PDF mentioned above, they say, "While a Metropolitan Division is a subdivision of a larger Metropolitan Statistical Area, it
often functions as a distinct social, economic, and cultural area within the larger region. Metropolitan Divisions retain their separate statistical identities."

There is nothing particularly distinct of Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties....in any realm, in relation to the "region." It is an ambiguous definition, and in this case, particularly wrong as well.

So forgive me if I disregard their ridiculous statistic on Boston, which is a very slow growth CSA, yet have managed to gain a million people almost overnight because of some tweaking of the counting rules.


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## bayviews (Mar 3, 2006)

Government buracracies are far from perfect & often less than consistent. It still seems a bit unreal to think of Boston as having a more popolous CSA than the San Francisco Bay Area. If the Bay Area were defined the same way, it would have over 10 million. But bringing New England into the standard countywide definations simplifies comparisons. So its understandable why Providence is now included within the Boston CSA. But whether or not Manchester is kept in the title, that really has to be modified to include Providence. Kinda surprised the Rhode Island politicians haven't raised an issue about that!


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## Shawn (Nov 12, 2002)

Used Napkin, I feel as though every American metro has inflated figures. If we were to apply the 15% commuter standard to Tokyo, then metro Tokyo would realistically have around 55 million people and Osaka would be bigger than metro New York. Nagoya is significantly larger than Atlanta, Miami, Dallas, and even SF and Boston, yet according to the way the US Census defines things, Nagoya is about the same size as the aforementioned metropolitan areas.

None of this changes the fact that New England metropolitan areas were held to a much stricter standard than the rest of the country prior to the 2000 Census. Boston’s 5.8 million 2000 Census number was calculated by including only portions of Bristol (a county that stands 10 miles south of the Boston _city limits_), Worcester, Hillsborough, Rockingham and Stratford counties, whereas places like Los Angeles would include entire counties such as Riverside and San Bernadino – places that stretched to the Nevada border. Granted, few people live in the hinterlands of these counties, but this doesn’t change that the entire counties’ populations were included in the Los Angels CSA.

I would prefer to see the entire country broken into metros as defined by the old New England definitions, but sadly large swaths of the rest of the country are unincorporated areas that do not lend themselves to calculation in the same manner by which towns and cities in Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Rhode Island do (every square inch of these states is incorporated as either a town or city). Thus, the only option is to calculate Boston’s CMA in the same manner that every other CMA in places such as Florida, Texas and California are calculated. 

Understand that these new definitions in no way add population to Boston “overnight.” Boston and Providence’s borders are only 28 linear miles apart; they are connected in a manner very similar to that of Washington and Baltimore or Seattle and Tacoma. The new definition is simply acknowledging something people in Boston and Providence have known for quite some time now. The same level of interconnected development that stood between Boston and Providence the day after the new definitions were applied existed the day prior.


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## unusualfire (May 26, 2004)

PeterSmith said:


> I don't want to highjack this thread away from Boston, but can anybody explain to me why my home of Miami is not a CSA? The Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-Miami Beach "MSA" includes all people living in Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach Counties, which stretches roughly 140 miles north to south an encompasses a land area of 5,537 sq.mi. It includes several cities with populations over 100,000 (Miami, Miami Beach, Ft. Lauderdale, Boca Raton, Hollywood, West Palm Beach). What keeps this massive area from being split up, when smaller denser areas are divided all the time?


Because it's a single urbanized area now. and not split up into 2-5 urban area's like in some metro area's.


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## Shawn (Nov 12, 2002)

Right, Miami's metro is a continuous urbanized area of 1000 pp sq mile or more between Miami and West Palm Beach. There is no need to split it into CSA components.


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## Bobdreamz (Sep 12, 2002)

Rank Urbanized Area 
2000 Population / 2000 Square Miles / 2000 Density / Density Rank 

1 New York--Newark, NY--NJ--CT
17,799,861 / 3,353 sq m / 5,309 psm / 3 

2 Los Angeles--Long Beach--Santa Ana, CA
12,492,983 / 1,859 sq m / 6,720 psm / 1 

3 Chicago, IL--IN
8,307,904 / 2,123 sq m / 3,914 psm / 11 

4 Philadelphia, PA--NJ--DE--MD 
5,149,079 / 1,799 sq m / 2,861 psm / 25 

5 Miami, FL
4,919,036 / 1,116 sq m / 4,407 psm / 8 

source: http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000compare.htm

PeterSmith Miami's Urbanized area is only 1,116 square miles even though the tri county land area is 5,537 sq. miles with the majority being Everglades & water conservation areas immediately to the metro's west. Density per sq. mile averages out to 4,407. By adding Palm Beach county the density average for the metro dropped as a whole.


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## PeterSmith (Jul 6, 2005)

Right. Well not to drive this argument into the ground, but I can understand if you're going by urbanized area, but Miami's MSA includes all people who live in all parts of Dade, Broward and Palm Beach. That density is not maintained continuously throughout all parts of those counties, so therefore the argument that it's a density issue is void, if you're going by MSA/CSA, I mean. If you're counting Urbanized Area, then it's a sound argument, I'm assuming. But to say that the entire population of Miami's MSA possesses such a high density is inaccurate.


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## hudkina (Oct 28, 2003)

An urbanized area is a contiguous set of block groups and blocks that have a density greater than 500 ppsm. The entire stretch from Miami to West Palm Beach is one contiguous set of block groups and blocks with a density greater than 500 ppsm, so the entire stretch is considered one urbanized area.

MSAs are derived using urban areas. Any urban area that has a population of at least 50,000 and is the largest urbanized area within a county is the basis for an MSA. The county is called the "core county". any counties that have at least 50% of their population or 5,000 people that are a part of the urbanized area are also considered "core counties". (Assuming that there isn't another urbanized area in the county that is larger.) Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach Counties all have at least 5,000 people that live within the Miami urban area, so all three counties are "core counties" and therefore a part of the MSA.

The reason there is not a CSA in south Florida is because none of the surrounding MSAs send a significant portion of their population to the Miami MSA.


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## PeterSmith (Jul 6, 2005)

Ah okay. Thanks for clearing that up, hudkina. I had no idea it was so in depth. I only remember that when I first moved down here, the three counties were their own separate MSAs (at least I thin they were) and now they are one single one, yet there hasn't really been any apparent change in their relationship with one another.


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## hudkina (Oct 28, 2003)

The change has only been in the way we define MSAs. The new method uses formulas and calculations down to the most minute detail. The only non-mathematical method is when they determine CSAs where the smaller MSA has a commuter exchange rate of between 15% and 25%. In that case local opinion determines whether or not an MSA is included. I'm not sure if there are any MSAs where local opinion doesn't favor inclusion, but it is possible there is one.


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## unusualfire (May 26, 2004)

hudkina said:


> The change has only been in the way we define MSAs. The new method uses formulas and calculations down to the most minute detail. The only non-mathematical method is when they determine CSAs where the smaller MSA has a commuter exchange rate of between 15% and 25%. In that case local opinion determines whether or not an MSA is included. I'm not sure if there are any MSAs where local opinion doesn't favor inclusion, but it is possible there is one.


It's hard to not be in favor of such a designation. The larger you are, the more federal money you're eligible for.


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## hudkina (Oct 28, 2003)

Which makes one wonder why they wouldn't just include all MSAs that meet the 15% requirement.


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## liat91 (Apr 11, 2005)

When Trenton was switched from Philadelphia to New York, my mother told me (she worked for the federal govt. in Trenton) that everone in her office where really pushing for it because the cost of living increases for pay where higher with New York.


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