# Most (urbanistically) decentralized countries.



## onosqaciw (Feb 13, 2011)

maybe it could make a run of money to tokyo greater area, the whole urban area as big as netherland


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## AmoreUrbs (Mar 6, 2013)

Austria also seems quite centralised on Vienna, or am I wrong? I guess it's important to count the fact that is the only big city in the flat part of the country.. but maybe Salzburg has its importance too (although not as big)?


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## AmoreUrbs (Mar 6, 2013)

Wapper said:


> Belgium has long been a very centralized country based on the French example. In the last decades, the country is being decentralized, but of course the inheritance of the past is clearly still there. Just look at the infrastructure: almost all roads lead to Brussels (like all road lead to Paris in France). There is no such city in Germany.


It looks like Flanders is becoming more and more decentralised (Wallonia is more unchanged); I would even say an invisible wall is being created between Flanders and Brussels by Flemish people (maybe you can confirm this).. as a matter of fact Antwerp and even smaller cities like Gent and Bruges are becoming more renown; It even looks like to me that they get more investment than Brussels, which looks less a bit less organised and clean.. France still looks more centralised than that


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## Eric Offereins (Jan 1, 2004)

The Netherlands are definitely very decentralized.
27 cities of over 100.000 inhabitants, of which Amsterdam is the biggest at 805.166 

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_grootste_gemeenten_in_Nederland


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

sebvill said:


> [/IMG]
> 
> According to this. China is the least centralized of the 5 and Brazil is the most centralized. But I think this would be better with GDP.


That's the most accurate way of doing it. I re-calculated Canada using 2012 data.

Canada

Toronto 5.94.........*****........*****
Montreal 3.96.........1.50.........1.50......2.25
Vancouver 2.46.........2.41.......1.61......3.88
Calgary 1.31............4.53.......1.88.......8.52
Ottawa 1.27............4.68.........1.03......4.82
Edmonton 1.23.........4.83.........1.03.......4.97

TOTAL SUM 24.44


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## 009 (Nov 28, 2007)

Troms said:


> I don't think Brazil and China are decentralized at all. In both countries you have rich and densely populated coastal areas (we could call them "megalopolis"), with cities like Rio or Shanghai that have a prominent role in the national economy, and on the other side huge poorer and sparsely populated regions. Do you remember, like, Tibet or Amazonas?
> 
> IMO the most decentralized countries are to be found mostly in Europe, probably because European countries are smaller on average. Italy, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark are good examples of decentralized countries. *UK is fairly decentralized*, though Northern Scotland is not as densely populated as Southern Scotland or England.
> Out of Europe, *I think Japan is well decentralized*, but we could see the island of Hokkaido as a sort of "Japanese Scotland".


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## I(L)WTC (Jan 30, 2010)

Japan, UK? Really? :rofl: Japan, UK, France, Argentina are very centralized


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## IThomas (Feb 11, 2011)

*Italy 59.7 million* 
Milan 7.5/8 million
Rome 4.5 million
Naples 4.0 million
Turin 2.0 million
...


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## AmoreUrbs (Mar 6, 2013)

Except that Italian decentralisation is almost a joke; there is a few big healthy economical cities, but they're located quite "close"; then you have parts of Italy like almost the entire the South, with a few big cities, but staling (just like the quite populated Northern England, which however is not as economically productive as Southern England) ; only Northern Italy and parts of the Centre can be called "healthy" (but especially Milan, even more than Rome), populated centres do not necessarily make a country decentralised, like we have seen in parts of industrial England, France and Belgium.. Germany is a much, much better example, with big economical centres in almost every geographical point, which should be taken as an example


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## AmoreUrbs (Mar 6, 2013)

Eric Offereins said:


> The Netherlands are definitely very decentralized.
> 27 cities of over 100.000 inhabitants, of which Amsterdam is the biggest at 805.166
> 
> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_grootste_gemeenten_in_Nederland


Very true, even though the main big cities are located very close together, between South and North Holland (and maybe Utrecht too), what is called "Randstad", with Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Den Haag as the main centres; still, other parts of Netherlands like North Brabant and Dutch Limburg are quite healthy too


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## calaguyo (Nov 28, 2008)

Meanwhile, in South East Asia decentralization is ongoing. 

Malaysia - besides KL and Penang, Malacca is now being an industrialized city and Johore Bahru is urbanizing due to its close proximity to Singapore.

Vietnam - Hanoi may be the capital city but there is more economic activities in Saigon. Not to mention the emerging cities like Da Nang and Hai Phong. 

Thailand - besides Bangkok and Phuket there is tourism boom in Pattaya, Chiang Mai and Hat Yai. 

Philippines - besides Metro Manila, Metro Cebu and Davao, cities like Iloilo, Baguio, Tagaytay and Clark are the next big cities for urbanization.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

calaguyo said:


> Meanwhile, in South East Asia decentralization is ongoing.
> 
> Malaysia - besides KL and Penang, Malacca is now being an industrialized city and Johore Bahru is urbanizing due to its close proximity to Singapore.
> 
> ...


Much of Thailand is still centralized around Bangkok.

Tagaytay and Angeles / Clark are both part of The Greater Manila Area.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

First countries I thought of were Germany and Italy.


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## tk780 (Jun 21, 2007)

I don't think there's any large country as demographically and functionally decentralized as Germany, probably not even the U.S.


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## VECTROTALENZIS (Jul 10, 2010)

tk780 said:


> I don't think there's any large country as demographically and functionally decentralized as Germany, probably not even the U.S.


China?


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## Robi_damian (Jun 15, 2008)

Spain
Italy
Germany
Switzerland
Netherlands
Poland
Ukraine
Slovakia
India
Pakistan
Vietnam
China
Australia
Morocco
South Africa
South Sudan :troll:


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## AmoreUrbs (Mar 6, 2013)

tk780 said:


> I don't think there's any large country as demographically and functionally decentralized as Germany, probably not even the U.S.


US comes close (although New York is the most influential, but there are other important cities like LA), but I repeat, not Italy; maybe in a cultural sense Italy is decentralised, but not economically; actually Milan (or other close cities) is where most economy is.. Rome plays a lesser role (still big, just not as big as Milan), while Germany has cities with almost equal influences (think about Münich, Hamburg, Frankfurt, Köln etc.) , in every geographical point; that's not Italy, which leaves entire parts of the country staling (not like Eastern Germany) for sure.. ; even Spain looks more decentralised with Madrid and Barcellona (and more autonomy for the "Autonomous communities), as both seem to have equally strong economical influences (especially economical, for Madrid)


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> China?


Much of China's economic developments *happen in the east*.


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## 009 (Nov 28, 2007)

gotta agree with Deutschland


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## null (Dec 11, 2002)

Manila-X said:


> Much of China's economic developments *happen in the east*.


There are lots of populous cities in Western China, even in Eastern China there are hundreds of cities with 1+ million people.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

That map itself just shows that China's urban development is much concentrated in the east.

The East is RED!


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

I agree with China being decentralized. But the trend goes into the other direction. Beijing is one of the fastest growing cities in China now. It is said to have the best universities and has the most rich people in China. 

Judging from the data of citypopulation.de, Beijing is growing at over 4.5% per year which is faster than any other metropolitan area over 2 million inhabitants in China but Xiamen.


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## null (Dec 11, 2002)

> That map itself just shows that China's urban development is much concentrated in the east.
> 
> The East is RED!



well, my point is the developments are not centered in one city, this is what we are discussing in the first place, isn't it?


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## Copperknickers (May 15, 2011)

China and the US of course, although they are so big they couldn't have one large city. 

Other than that: 

Germany - it has a largest city (Berlin), the financial capital (Frankfurt) and the largest urban area (the Ruhr) all at different ends of the country from each other. Then the next largest cities, Hamburg and Munich, also distinct entities. 

Pakistan - Islamabad, Karachi, Lahore, all major cities.

UAE - obviously divided between Dubai and Abu Dhabi, possibly one of the major examples of competition between two cities in the same country of similar sizes.

South Africa - Johannesburg is dominant in some ways, but its not the capital, and Cape Town and Durban are both pretty autonomous.

Morocco - an overlooked country, but a good example of decentralisation in terms of competing cities. I bet most people outside this forum couldn't even name the capital of Morocco, but have heard of Marrakesh and Casablanca.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

First country that came to mind for me is Italy. 

Canada is a bit of a unique case due to having two distinct languages and cultures. This has resulted in Montreal being completely dominant in Quebec and Toronto in English Canada. The Toronto area has one-third English Canada's population and is the undisputed leader in finance, industry, media, politics, and culture. 

All issue in Canada are considered regional unless they involve Toronto at which case it becomes a national issue.


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

^what's the dynamic between Toronto and Vancouver?


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## jacint.mif (Jan 24, 2014)

Switzerland, no city seems to dominate demographically or economically over the others.


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## 009 (Nov 28, 2007)

First that came to mind was Germany

China seems like a good answer as well, although the population is heavily concentrated on the east coast


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## 009 (Nov 28, 2007)

jacint.mif said:


> Switzerland, no city seems to dominate demographically or economically over the others.


Zurich has more than 20% of the population of the country in its metro area and a big chunk of the GDP


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

alexandru.mircea said:


> ^what's the dynamic between Toronto and Vancouver?


Canada is such a massive country that a city's reach and influence only stretches so far. Toronto largely ignores the rest of Canada and gets a lot of flack for it. That said, Torontonians increasingly look to Vancouver (and sometimes Calgary) as it's main Canadian rival despite Montreal being much larger than either. 

Toronto's dominance in Canada is undeniable but I don't sense much resentment from Vancouverites. The Toronto - Vancouver dynamic might mirror the New York - Los Angeles dynamic. They're cognizant of each other but are far enough removed that there's not all that much friction between the 2.


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## jacint.mif (Jan 24, 2014)

009 said:


> Zurich has more than 20% of the population of the country in its metro area and a big chunk of the GDP


Basel and Geneva are not much smaller than Zurich, both having close to 1 million inhabitants in their metropolitan areas, economically swell, they are very strong. In fact, even smaller cities like Lausanne and Zug are economically strong and have some clout. Quit e feat for a country with around 8 million people.


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

I wouldn't say that Switzerland is centralized, on the contrary I find a country to be centralized when a disproportionate amount of capital, human capital, power of decision etc. lies in a dominating city, compared to the population size as a percent of that of the country's. If Zurich holds towards a quarter of the country's population then it is to be expected for it to hold a proportionate power, on the contrary where I come from Bucharest holds only about 10% of the country's poipulation yet the dominance it exerts is extraordinary, to the level that the bigger provincial city are almost ten times smaller than it, and have always been caught in between the duality of dominant capital on one side and rural population on the other (around 50% of the population, a fact that is specific to poor agricultural countries), without being able to escape it and grow in size and importance.


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## Rascar (Mar 13, 2012)

As when this thread first surfaced, India seems to be overlooked... Two megacities of Mumbai and Delhi, the other two main metros Calcutta and Chennai approach 10million, plus Bangalore another big city globally renowned in its main industry.

It is also worth noting these cities are fairly evenly spread around the country.


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## Yuri S Andrade (Sep 29, 2008)

Population-wise, Brazil seems to be very decentralised. But when it comes to power, urban hierachy, São Paulo dominance is huge. Everything ends there.


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## Pals_RGB (Apr 1, 2013)

Most decentralised countries in my opinion:

India
China
Germany
US
Australia
Netherland

Some of the most centralised countries off the top of my head…

(in no order)
Japan 
UK
France
Russia
Thailand
Indonesia
Mexico
Argentina

Countries like Brazil, Colombia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa lies in the middle.


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## Copperknickers (May 15, 2011)

alexandru.mircea said:


> ^what's the dynamic between Toronto and Vancouver?


According to my family over there, Vancouver, although prestigious in some regards, is actually facing serious problems right now. It's getting so expensive that its facing a brain drain. A lot of ambitious young Vancouverites get out of the city as soon as they can, and go to Toronto or the US.


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## skyrocket2 (Jun 22, 2015)

Switzerland is very polycentric, I think it,s one of the few countries out there that doesn't have a major city, I can't even distinguish a major capital!

Germany is also extremely pokycentric. Not only do we see relatively equal major cities (Munich, Hamburg, Berlin), but we even get gems such as Rhine-Rhur!

Italy is spread out slightly, but it replicates UK (regional capitals tend to shine) rather than Switzerland. But you can't deny that Italy has several important cities (Triste, Milan, Venice, Florence, Rome, San Marino, Vatican, etc).

I think the UAE is quite polycentric?

The Netherlands actually has one large urban area with easy travel in between. saying City East + City West = polycentric country is incorrect.

In terms of polycenteic regions, I think Western Europe (between London and Paris) is very polyspcentric. London, Paris, Brussels, Strasbourg, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Rhine-Rhur, Cologne, etc... It's possible to extend north to Malmo even,



Skyprince said:


> But, China and India are *huge populous nations.* which cannot be compared to countries like Australia
> 
> Take certain Indian states:
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I prefer to think of countries such as China as more of an 'empire' rather than a country/kingdom. All of China's provinces and India's states have capitals similar to Paris.


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## gandhi.rushabh1992 (Dec 10, 2010)

A map to give a better perspective of India's urban spread:



>


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## Metro007 (Apr 18, 2011)

skyrocket2 said:


> Switzerland is very polycentric, I think it,s one of the few countries out there that doesn't have a major city, I can't even distinguish a major capital!


Well, Zurich and Geneva are both global cities and Zurich is an (Alpha-) global city (according to the Definition: Alpha and Alpha- cities are cities that link major economic regions into the world economy. Examples are Los Angeles and Moscow).

For comparaison, if you would exclude Paris, even the second city in France (Lyon) is less of a major city than Geneva or Zurich. So it's not as bad i think.


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## JHPart (Jun 23, 2015)

If you study on maps of Western Europe and you look also on local maps, it is possible to create a very big polycentric city. The city includes the whole région between Arras in France, Alkmaar in the Netherlands, the Rhur area, Bonn and the Sambre-Meuse area in Belgium.

This polycentric city is opposite to the Bleu Banana, because you can extend it through the North Sea Coast to Paris and through Bielefeld, Hannover and Magdeburg to Berlin.


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## Nicko9 (Dec 18, 2015)

Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia is extremely centralized. Serbia is in a class of its own tough.
*Stats are based on proper city population, not metropolitan area.

*Bulgaria

*Sofia... 1,228,282.........*****.......*****
Plovdiv... 341,567........ 3.60........ 3.60... 12.96
Varna... 335,949.......... 3.66....... 1.02... 3.73
Burgas... 198,725......... 6.18....... 1.69... 10.44
Ruse... 147,055............ 8.35....... 1.35... 11.27
Stara Zagora... 137,729.. 8.92...... 1.07... 9.54

Total Sum: *47.94*

*Serbia
*Belgrade... 1,166,763... ****... ****... ****
Novi Sad... 231,798..... 5.03.... 5.03... 25.30
Nis... 183,164............. 6.37.... 1.27... 8.09
Kragujevac... 150,835.. 7.74.... 1.21... 9.37
Subotica... 97,910....... 11.92... 1.54... 18.36
Zrenjanin... 76,511...... 15.25... 1.28... 19.52

Total Sum: *80.64*
*
Romania
*Bucharest... 1,883,425... ****... ****..... ****
Cluj-Napoca... 324,576... 5.80.... 5.80... 33.64
Timisoara... 319,279..... 5.90..... 1.02.... 6.02
Iasi... 290,422............. 6.49..... 1.10.... 7.14
Constanta... 283,872.... 6.63..... 1.02.... 6.76
Craiova... 269,506....... 6.99..... 1.05.... 7.34

Total Sum: *60.9*


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

Bulgaria is not that bad IMO, they might even be the least centralized (and most big city oriented) country in South-East Europe. They don't have as many secondary provincial cities in the 200-300K range of population like Romania, but the ones they have provide a better counterbalance to the size of the capital (which is also smaller), when also related to the total size of the country's population. I also never managed to get my head around to why the best and biggest secondary cities in Romania are still smaller than Plovdiv and even Varna. Given how dominant they could be inside their own regions, the likes of Cluj, Timisoara, Iasi, Craiova and Constanta are extremely underachieving - ideally they should be in a 500k to 700k range IMO, yet they've never looked like really challenging for 350k before the last wave of population decrease (by immigration) kicked in.


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## Robi_damian (Jun 15, 2008)

alexandru.mircea said:


> Bulgaria is not that bad IMO, they might even be the least centralized (and most big city oriented) country in South-East Europe. They don't have as many secondary provincial cities in the 200-300K range of population like Romania, but the ones they have provide a better counterbalance to the size of the capital (which is also smaller), when also related to the total size of the country's population. I also never managed to get my head around to why the best and biggest secondary cities in Romania are still smaller than Plovdiv and even Varna. Given how dominant they could be inside their own regions, the likes of Cluj, Timisoara, Iasi, Craiova and Constanta are extremely underachieving - ideally they should be in a 500k to 700k range IMO, yet they've never looked like really challenging for 350k before the last wave of population decrease (by immigration) kicked in.


Romania is considerably less urbanized than Bulgaria as well, to the tune of 15-20 pp difference in rural population share.


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## ayc35 (Jul 14, 2013)

France is the perfect exemple of a highly centralized country, with one out of five french living in Paris urban area (12,3 million inhabitants / 63,3 million). 

This fact is strenghtened by the complete lack of any significant "counter-power" to the parisian domination. The urban area of Lyon (France second city) is only populated by 2,2 millions inhabitants.

The title of the famous (at least among french geography students!) book "Paris and the french desert" published in 1947 is _in a sense_ still accurate today.


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

^ there are plenty of examples of centralized (in this sense) countries that are more striking. Over four million Greeks out of almost eleven million live in the Athens metro, for example.


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## Dober_86 (May 9, 2010)

Ukraine is pretty decentralized. First of all, Kiev, the largest city and the capital contains less then 10% of country's population. 

Second, the margin between Kiev and the second largest, Kharkiv, is two times, compare to any major European nation's largest cities difference, except Germany and Italy. 

Third, quite even geographical distribution of the largest cities: 

Kiev 2,9 mln - North
Kharkov 1,4 mln - North-East
Odessa 1 mln - South
Dnipro 1 mln - Center
Donetsk, under 1 mln - East
Lviv 0,8 mln - West


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

^indeed. Also, it was only with the occasion of EURO 2012 that I learnt how large Ukraine's total population is, which puts it among Europe's biggest countries and should normally mean that it has a great potential, which hopefully comes to fruition sometime. 

On an institutional level and on a general level of "things happening", how developed are Ukraine's secondary cities?


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