# Why many people say Arabian Gulf cities look "Fake " and "Soulless" ?



## aquaticko

Skyprince said:


> Indeed, but I can hardly name famous artists, entertainers, scientists, pets etc who are originally from say, Amsterdam? Or Seoul?


You're from Kuala Lumpur yet you are unaware of the Korean Wave? There are dozens of people from Seoul who are know by a global population, even if it remains relatively small in absolute number. There's also the fact that most globally-known Korean corporations are based in Seoul, and that the Seoul metro area is the second-most populated in the world. And Amsterdam is known for being a very artsy city, never mind that the Netherlands as a whole has produced a lot of art and innovation historically, and of course Amsterdam is the representative city of that country in most people's minds. Whether or not it's a fair picture of the UAE, the image is of being just an oil fiefdom.



> Dubai is Dubai... it is simply what it is- a city with small native population and huge number of expats who mostly coming in and out of it. The "newer" parts of Dubai actually feels really small when compared to older parts & districts of Dubai.


And even with your pictures, how often is the older side of Dubai shown? Most people know Dubai, if they know it at all, as the home of the tallest building in the world. Even most people on here, myself included, know it first and foremost as home to one of the most intense and immense skyscraper construction booms in history. 



> They look crap to many but they are highly functional, full of traditional facets,* it is what Dubai is about*. So what to be shamed about ?
> 
> My point is* not about how crap/ugly buildings/architecture looks like*- my point is *Dubai is what it is*- a city full of tradition, soul, a mix of different cultures which are well-represented.
> 
> Look at Dubai's pics 50-60 years ago, full of such streetshops.
> 
> Dubai is a mix of Gulf, Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, India etc. and many other cultures mixed together
> 
> And since I've been to Dubai for 7 times so far , I can simply say most of what u said about Dubai is wrong- it is hot with non-stop sunshine during daytime- but at night Dubai is full of street activities, extremely vibrant city with bustling dining and shopping activity.
> 
> Indeed Ronnie bro. When I first visited the Gulf back in 2006 I never expected such a vibrant, colourful, hospitable, dynamic and progressive place :cheers:


Again, this just gets back to the problem of how Dubai is often seen. It looks like an architectual playground, and is often advertised as such in the media, so people either don't bother to look further into it or assume it must be true. And I think that places that are crossroads ought to play themselves up as such, and try and make sure that _everyone_ sees such places the way they deserve to be seen. And progressive is a relative term; as an American, I still can't help but see Dubai, and the rest of the Emirates, as nothing more than a rich man's playground, with little concern for anyone or anyone else (the situation of immigrant laborers there is particularly disconcerting, as is the energy usage of a country that could probably get 100% of its electricity from solar power).

Any city, of any size, is probably going to be thought of as lifeless and dead unless people know for certain that that's not the case. If the only thing that you're worried about here is perception, a negative one about Dubai and the UAE with _you_ think is incorrect, then don't be concerned. The important thing is that Dubai and the UAE are seen as the most developed, progressive, and *important* country of all of the Middle East to people in the West, save perhaps for Israel, and people will eventually realize that that means it _must_ be lively and full of energy.


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## Dimethyltryptamine

Skyprince said:


> Emm but when I was in Dubai how could I found the opposite ? The whole of Dubai city seem to be crowded with people, its metro is highly utilized, shopping malls are packed especially at night, etc. I didn't get the impression of a sterile, soulless city at all. In fact, I found Dubai to be the most vibrant, the most cheerful and the most colourful major city I've seen .


I've been to Dubai and can say with confidence the 'whole Dubai city' is _not_ crowded... The shopping malls (Dubai Mall, mainly) may be crowded, but that doesn't make them any less gaudy and sterile. Give me busy streets with shop-fronts lining the footpath any day over a shopping mall with an ice skating rink, and an enormous aquarium. 

To be honest, if Dubai is all that (the most vibrant, cheerful and colourful major city you've seen), I have to question your travels... Have you been to cities such as Paris, London, New York, Chicago, Toronto, Melbourne, etc - if not, I suggest you do, and see how real cities work.


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## turigamot

Dimethyltryptamine said:


> You ask the question, then you refute every answer you're given. Why bother, lol


This.

New Dubai reminds people of Las Vegas. Which is, without a doubt, fake and soulless. Dubai built their skyscrapers as a way to show off; not because they actually needed them. This reeks of gimmickry. It doesn't matter what the old city is like. It is the "modern" part of Dubai that they present to the world as an example, and thus, this is what the world sees—and it leaves much to be desired.

As a counter-example of a booming economy, without the ostentatious, showoff supertalls, look at the Kurdistan region of Iraq. They are building to modernize, and doing it without supertalls and without vast amounts of government money. They are building because the market demands it; not because they feel the need to prove anything to the rest of the world.


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## musiccity

Dimethyltryptamine said:


> You ask the question, then you refute every answer you're given. Why bother, lol


I know, I don't get it. Why ask for people's opinions then bash every opinion that isn't the same as yours.


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## Messi

Skyprince said:


> But still* most of Mecca* is traditional or semi-traditional , free from those modern skyscrapers.
> 
> Low education ? Yet Saudis seem to be better educated than most other parts of developing Asia , many Saudis had their tertiary education in the West . But you never call poor countries in Asia and Africa with high illiteracy rate " Soulless" ?
> 
> Political system is very subjective- many Asian & Arabian Gulf countries develop fast under iron fist .


Nice for Mecca but I don't think it is full of historical buildings. Just around mecca you see hundreds of ugly high-rise apartments. Where is the history if not next to Mecca? Btw I am not talking specifically for Mecca. It was given as an example why cities in the region don't have a soul. It's because there is no respect for heritage, there is no civil society which is powerful enough to stop such demolition. Again I am not talking specifically about Mecca. If this is happening in Mecca imagine the rest.

Off topic: I really don't think that Saudi population is an educated and enlightened one. The tertiary education is more like a madrasah rather than accumulation of science.


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## Skyprince

musiccity said:


> I know, I don't get it. Why ask for people's opinions then bash every opinion that isn't the same as yours.


I'm not bashing, but the way many ppl speak of Dubai, Doha etc here is as if its only unique to them, when the truth is, the whole world is similar. 

Almost all major cities in the world also have older parts, *semi-old parts *( without any cultural influence ) and newer parts. Is this statement wrong ? We cannot take only the newer parts of Dubai and say the whole city "soulless" because of that. 

It's true what u said- that many buildings in Doha, Dubai etc were only built 3-4 decades ago, but IMO they are great representative of old Arabia, old Pakistan, old Persia and old India ( Kerala ) . The native of Dubai and Doha were nomads many years ago, and their population was very, very low in the past, thus the historical structure tend to be less. But still the different cultures that make up Dubai is very alive and vibrant.

Many landed houses and rooms in hotels in Dubai are built according to native Emirati architecture. There are many other examples.


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## Disturbing Reality

Skyprince said:


> Emm but since I live in Kuala Lumpur I must say that soo many buildings here aren't representative of anything- they are just built with random modern design etc.
> 
> It's same with all major cities in the world- there are historical areas, there are semi-historical areas, and the modern districts full of building design unrelated to any local influence ( is this what u call "Soulless" ?)
> 
> So why single out Dubai , Doha etc ?


please don't get me wrong, western architecture in asia (or vice versa) doesn't automatically mean "soulless".. french architecture in saigon, spanish in manila and dutch in jakarta are all results of history and cultural exchange..

i can't speak much for kuala lumpur.. if that's your observation, then it must be in the same league as dubai.. no offense, architecture is a non-issue, we are talking about constructions just for the heck of it..



Skyprince said:


> I'm not bashing, but the way many ppl speak of Dubai, Doha etc here is as if its only unique to them, when the truth is, the whole world is similar.


no, the whole world is not similar. there aren't a lot of places that builds just to show off. firstly, most nations aren't wealthy enough to afford showing off, secondly, most nations don't think it's necessary to show off.. in fact the world has never seen such extravagance as dubai's constructions..


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## Dimethyltryptamine

Skyprince said:


> I'm not bashing, but the way many ppl speak of Dubai, Doha etc here is as if its only unique to them, when the truth is, the whole world is similar.


First page... 



Dimethyltryptamine said:


> It's not something that is reserved only to Dubai. I've heard the Gold Coast labeled soulless, and Las Vegas the same.


Third page



turigamot said:


> *New Dubai reminds people of Las Vegas.* Which is, without a doubt, fake and soulless. Dubai built their skyscrapers as a way to show off; not because they actually needed them. This reeks of gimmickry. It doesn't matter what the old city is like. It is the "modern" part of Dubai that they present to the world as an example, and thus, this is what the world sees—and it leaves much to be desired.


Fact is though, Dubai has taken the soulless, instant city feeling to a whole new level.... A level far greater than Las Vegas, Macau, the Gold Coast.


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## Skyprince

Dimethyltryptamine said:


> I've been to Dubai and can say with confidence the 'whole Dubai city' is _not_ crowded... The shopping malls (Dubai Mall, mainly) may be crowded, but that doesn't make them any less gaudy and sterile. Give me busy streets with shop-fronts lining the footpath any day over a shopping mall with an ice skating rink, and an enormous aquarium.
> 
> To be honest, if Dubai is all that (the most vibrant, cheerful and colourful major city you've seen), I have to question your travels... Have you been to cities such as Paris, London, New York, Chicago, Toronto, Melbourne, etc - if not, I suggest you do, and see how real cities work.


Emm okay, but not the *whole* of London, New York, Tokyo, Singapore , New Delhi are crowded either. In every major city of course there are always crowded vs. sterile/dull/relatively empty streets/districts.

I've been to UK, Australia, France, Netherlands etc. and many big Asian cities but still I must say relative to its size, Dubai is the most bustling and vibrant major city I've seen, IMO the warm weather and the local culture of staying outdoor till midnight makes it feel very lively all the day. 

And "busy streets with shop-fronts lining the footpath "- Dubai has *soooo *many such places. Have you been to Deira ?  Even the photos I posted in 1st page of this thread show such bustling traditional district full of life :cheers:


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## Disturbing Reality

^^^^
so what are you trying to say? that you were right and the whole world is wrong?

you know, there's just a bunch of things that don't need much (over) analyzation, you go to some place, whatever first impression you have is basically beyond explanation..


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## Skyprince

aquaticko said:


> You're from Kuala Lumpur yet you are unaware of the Korean Wave? There are dozens of people from Seoul who are know by a global population, even if it remains relatively small in absolute number. There's also the fact that most globally-known Korean corporations are based in Seoul, and that the Seoul metro area is the second-most populated in the world. And Amsterdam is known for being a very artsy city, never mind that the Netherlands as a whole has produced a lot of art and innovation historically, and of course Amsterdam is the representative city of that country in most people's minds. Whether or not it's a fair picture of the UAE, the image is of being just an oil fiefdom.
> 
> 
> 
> And even with your pictures, how often is the older side of Dubai shown? Most people know Dubai, if they know it at all, as the home of the tallest building in the world. Even most people on here, myself included, know it first and foremost as home to one of the most intense and immense skyscraper construction booms in history.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this just gets back to the problem of how Dubai is often seen. It looks like an architectual playground, and is often advertised as such in the media, so people either don't bother to look further into it or assume it must be true. And I think that places that are crossroads ought to play themselves up as such, and try and make sure that _everyone_ sees such places the way they deserve to be seen. And progressive is a relative term; as an American, I still can't help but see Dubai, and the rest of the Emirates, as nothing more than a rich man's playground, with little concern for anyone or anyone else (the situation of immigrant laborers there is particularly disconcerting, as is the energy usage of a country that could probably get 100% of its electricity from solar power).
> 
> Any city, of any size, is probably going to be thought of as lifeless and dead unless people know for certain that that's not the case. If the only thing that you're worried about here is perception, a negative one about Dubai and the UAE with _you_ think is incorrect, then don't be concerned. The important thing is that Dubai and the UAE are seen as the most developed, progressive, and *important* country of all of the Middle East to people in the West, save perhaps for Israel, and people will eventually realize that that means it _must_ be lively and full of energy.


Wow, this is very interesting read :cheers:


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## Skyprince

Disturbing Reality said:


> ^^^^
> so what are you trying to say? that you were right and the whole world is wrong?


I don't want to explain anymore.. it's a simple logic that any major city on planet Earth are a combination of old, semi-old and new modern parts, and have both crowded/bustling and relatively empty spaces. 

Anyway, I don't feel this thread is a ground to discuss this simple issue.


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## Dimethyltryptamine

meh, I'm done in this thread. what a waste of time. we obviously have different views of what is bustling and what is not... those pictures you posted may be 'bustling' by Dubai standards (i.e. 3 people walking down a street lined carparks) but in no other world city would that hold up.


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## Disturbing Reality

Skyprince said:


> I don't want to explain anymore.. it's a simple logic that any major city on planet Earth are a combination of old, semi-old and new modern parts, and have both crowded/bustling and relatively empty spaces.
> 
> Anyway, I don't feel this thread is a ground to discuss this simple issue.


what logic? you mean dubai has old and new sections and classic and modern architecture? of course we know it.. c'mon..

all cities in the world has old, not-so-old, and new modern districts, yes! but none has ever brought showing-off to a higher level. i mean, look at all those half-empty supertalls..


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## Skyprince

The charm of Dubai :cheers:

Photos by SSC forumer Tom Green 
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=203569






























































Dubai Creek :cheers:











Most of Emiratis live in such landed house, in Emirati style architecture :cheers:


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## Dimethyltryptamine

great street level activity for a city of more than 2 million :lol:


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## Skyprince

Galro said:


> Libya also have (or perhaps used to have consider the recent war?) buildings like these too:
> 
> Do the Gulf countries have anything similar (genuine question as I don't know)?


Libya's location and history makes some of its architecture a mix of what we can see in Arabian Peninsula and in Southern Europe IMO..

In Gulf countries, say UAE, it's largely a mix of purely Arabian Gulf architecture with Pakistani, Indian and Persian influence


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## Manila-X

DiggerD21 said:


> Dining and Shopping = vibrant city? How sad, this commercialism.
> What about culture? Concerts, Theatre, Arts exhibitions etc. I don't speak of high profile (in other words: commercialized) stuff, but the more hidden, underground scene. Dubai is not known at all for that. And basically those few I met who went to Dubai or planned to go there, wanted to go for making lots of money in short time and then come back to their home countries.


Culture is what I'm talking about especially urban culture, the visual and performing arts, entertainment, poetry. This is what brings *life* to a city. 

This is what gave London, New York or Paris it's character. Same with HK, Manila, Mexico City or even KL.

Dubai can spend millions of Dirham bringing in big talents say Madonna or Ricky Martin but does not have it's own local talents to shine. 

How about arts, music, literature? Any prominent people from Dubai into this scene?


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## Manila-X

aquaticko said:


> You're from Kuala Lumpur yet you are unaware of the Korean Wave? There are dozens of people from Seoul who are know by a global population, even if it remains relatively small in absolute number. There's also the fact that most globally-known Korean corporations are based in Seoul, and that the Seoul metro area is the second-most populated in the world. And Amsterdam is known for being a very artsy city, never mind that the Netherlands as a whole has produced a lot of art and innovation historically, and of course Amsterdam is the representative city of that country in most people's minds. Whether or not it's a fair picture of the UAE, the image is of being just an oil fiefdom.
> 
> 
> 
> And even with your pictures, how often is the older side of Dubai shown? Most people know Dubai, if they know it at all, as the home of the tallest building in the world. Even most people on here, myself included, know it first and foremost as home to one of the most intense and immense skyscraper construction booms in history.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this just gets back to the problem of how Dubai is often seen. It looks like an architectual playground, and is often advertised as such in the media, so people either don't bother to look further into it or assume it must be true. And I think that places that are crossroads ought to play themselves up as such, and try and make sure that _everyone_ sees such places the way they deserve to be seen. And progressive is a relative term; as an American, I still can't help but see Dubai, and the rest of the Emirates, as nothing more than a rich man's playground, with little concern for anyone or anyone else (the situation of immigrant laborers there is particularly disconcerting, as is the energy usage of a country that could probably get 100% of its electricity from solar power).
> 
> Any city, of any size, is probably going to be thought of as lifeless and dead unless people know for certain that that's not the case. If the only thing that you're worried about here is perception, a negative one about Dubai and the UAE with _you_ think is incorrect, then don't be concerned. The important thing is that Dubai and the UAE are seen as the most developed, progressive, and *important* country of all of the Middle East to people in the West, save perhaps for Israel, and people will eventually realize that that means it _must_ be lively and full of energy.


Plus The Olympics as the case with Seoul.






Can Dubai show the same flair?


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## Manila-X

Skyprince said:


> The charm of Dubai :cheers:
> 
> Most of Emiratis live in such landed house, in Emirati style architecture :cheers:


This is where contrast shows. While there are native Emiratis who can live in luxury, the majority of the city, The South Asians have to live in drab conditions and have to deal with prejudice, hardships and to some extent violating their human rights especially those who construct the supertalls that you see in this city.

And riots do happen!


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## Skyprince

Well , Dubai is home to Emirati music/dance/entertainment :cheers:


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## Manila-X

Skyprince said:


> Well , Dubai is home to Emirati music/dance/entertainment :cheers:


But this is more traditional and those who are interested in this are mostly Arabs themselves or from any country within the Islamic cultural sphere.


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## Skyprince

Manila-X said:


> But this is more traditional and those who are interested in this are mostly Arabs themselves or from any country within the Islamic cultural sphere.


But its still the culture that Dubai could present to the world. Looking at their dance- it is almost exactly as what they carried from the past. 

Also, UAE's population is very small. South Korea has 50 times biugger population than native population of UAE ( about 1 million ) , this this partly explain why there is less chance of Emirati native singers/entertainers making big in the world.


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## Skyprince

Manila-X said:


> This is where contrast shows. While there are native Emiratis who can live in luxury, the majority of the city, The South Asians have to live in drab conditions and have to deal with prejudice, hardships and to some extent violating their human rights especially those who construct the supertalls that you see in this city.
> 
> And riots do happen!


Most of random South Asians I met in UAE are semi-professionals ( IT workers, shopkeepers, business-owners etc even many Engineers ) earning 3000-6000 Dirhams/month, which I think good salary. Most of them get free accommodation ( good housing/apartment ) and many other benefits. 

Also I met many ultra-rich Indians, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis living very high life in Dubai , in the most expensive apartments and driving posh cars. 

There are of course, many poorly -paid South Asians mostly in construction and customer-service jobs. But if given chance, almost all of them would ratehr stay in Dubai then returning to their own countries where pay is incredibly far less and working condition can be worse.

Dubai and the rest of Gulf , from what I saw there, is incredibly full of different faces and life stories


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## Sarcasticity

Maybe 'cause the buildings are as vacant as the streets. But I wouldn't say soul-less. The cities do look very superficial


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## Manila-X

To be honest, I would like to visit Dubai one of these days but I do not want to live nor work there. I'm happy with my career here in Manila.

But again, as a city, Dubai is becoming the hub of The Middle East and since it is an *open city* is one of the factors in its contribution.


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## RonnieR

Skyprince said:


> But its still the culture that Dubai could present to the world. Looking at their dance- it is almost exactly as what they carried from the past.
> 
> Also, UAE's population is very small. South Korea has 50 times biugger population than native population of UAE ( about 1 million ) , this this partly explain why there is less chance of Emirati native singers/entertainers making big in the world.


I would love to visit Dubai but I have no intention to work there.....interesting traditional dance.


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## turigamot

Manila-X said:


> Plus The Olympics as the case with Seoul.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can Dubai show the same flair?


Eh... I wouldn't really use that as an example. Because that is just as superficial as Dubai's built-for-no-reason supertalls.

The cultural dance that was shown *is* something that would make a city stand out, and be worth visiting. Like Rio's Carnival, or American street musicians.
















 (watch the whole thing) 

This is what makes cities *not* superficial and fake. Their unique cultural identity.

But the problem of Dubai is what Dubai itself presents to the rest of the world: they don't show old Dubai. They want people to see the skyscrapers. And the rest of the world isn't all that impressed.


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## Skyprince

Manila-X said:


> To be honest, I would like to visit Dubai one of these days but I do not want to live nor work there. I'm happy with my career here in Manila.
> 
> But again, as a city, Dubai is becoming the hub of The Middle East and since it is an *open city* is one of the factors in its contribution.





RonnieR said:


> I would love to visit Dubai but I have no intention to work there.....interesting traditional dance.


Actually, outside Malaysia my no.1 place to live in are Arabian Gulf states. There are so many reasons why I just love the lifestyle and people there.



turigamot said:


> Eh... I wouldn't really use that as an example. Because that is just as superficial as Dubai's built-for-no-reason supertalls.
> 
> The cultural dance that was shown *is* something that would make a city stand out, and be worth visiting. Like Rio's Carnival, or American street musicians.
> 
> This is what makes cities *not* superficial and fake. Their unique cultural identity.
> 
> But the problem of Dubai is what Dubai itself presents to the rest of the world: they don't show old Dubai. They want people to see the skyscrapers. And the rest of the world isn't all that impressed.


There is alot of truth of what u said !! :cheers: Indeed Dubai/UAE and Qatar especially, tend to showcase the modern side while even for tourism ads I've seen of Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Qatar, they solely tend to portray Desert and water activities. I haven't seen serious publisity of traditional/old districts .


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## citypia

Skyprince said:


> Indeed, but I can hardly name famous artists, entertainers, scientists, pets etc who are originally from say, Amsterdam ? or Seoul ?


Famous artists, entertainers from Seoul.
These are the example.
Sumi Jo

Flickr에서 Hyundaicapital님의 현대캐피탈 Invitational 조수미 파크콘서트

Kim Yunjin

Flickr에서 T.O.P_GDragon님의 Yunjin Kim (Sun Kwon)

The most famous person from Seoul. Do you know who he is?


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## citypia

turigamot said:


> Eh... I wouldn't really use that as an example. Because that is just as superficial as Dubai's built-for-no-reason supertalls.


I think that Manila-X is just trying to show the one of famost k-pop artists, which is very popular across the asia.
The dance on the video doesn't represent korean culture.
Also, there is no reason to be superficial on the video as long as boom boom dance or anything is for every one, every country. 




turigamot said:


> The cultural dance that was shown *is* something that would make a city stand out, and be worth visiting. Like Rio's Carnival, or American street musicians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (watch the whole thing)
> 
> This is what makes cities *not* superficial and fake. Their unique cultural identity.
> 
> But the problem of Dubai is what Dubai itself presents to the rest of the world: they don't show old Dubai. They want people to see the skyscrapers. And the rest of the world isn't all that impressed.


I want to ask one thing. Do you really think that those kind of video clips stand out the city(Washington D.C.) and make people think worth visiting. To me, not really.
Is it really a unique cultural identity of the city, which the other cities in the world don't have? 
I saw similar things many other cities in the world, for example, Paris in France.
Also, those kind of rhythm and music are not originally from Africa, Central or South America?


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## isaidso

Arab gulf state cities don't get a fair shake. People often just look at the new skyscrapers sprouting out of the desert when forming their opinions. They tend to over look the older more established parts of these cities. Having said that, when cities grow rapidly they have a tendency to look sterile, monotonous, and forced. This is true no matter where in the world they are built. 

An area where 30 skyscrapers are built in 5 years is going to have architecture of the same era and often similar materials used. It can leave a place looking fake, life less, and/or soul less. 

Areas that have built up over a century are going to have great layering, variety in the built form, and have grown organically. They tend to look and feel far more natural than any instant city. Even in Toronto, the new multi tower developments get lambasted by the locals. City Place on our waterfront is a good example of that. It's a 20 tower development consisting of 20-50 floor glass condo buildings. It's been widely criticized.

Places like Dubai, Doha, Abu Dhabi, etc, are being criticized for the exact same thing as modern developments in the west get criticized for. The only difference is that so much of these Arab cities (that people notice) are these huge multi tower developments rather than neighbourhoods that have grown over many decades.


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## citypia

Outsiders or visitors don't know the depth of the city.
They can have only shallow perception according to their standard and lifestyle.
Only the people who live in the city for long long time know the what the city about.

Only time heals all wounds of Dubai today.


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## Manila-X

citypia said:


> I think that Manila-X is just trying to show the one of famost k-pop artists, which is very popular across the asia.
> The dance on the video doesn't represent korean culture.
> Also, there is no reason to be superficial on the video as long as boom boom dance or anything is for every one, every country.


What I'm trying to show is with local Korean talents especially when it comes to popular music, they can promote their city (Seoul) in an exciting and entertaining way.

Dubai lack popular local artists or even if there are, they are not as popular nor have a cult following that K-Pop has.


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## Manila-X

edit


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## goschio

Skyprince said:


> I've been to *UK*, *Australia*, *France*, *Netherlands* etc. and many big Asian cities *but still I must say relative to its size, Dubai is the most bustling and vibrant major city I've seen*, IMO the warm weather and the local culture of staying outdoor till midnight makes it feel very lively all the day.


Just a bizarre statement.


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## turigamot

citypia said:


> I want to ask one thing. Do you really think that those kind of video clips stand out the city(Washington D.C.) and make people think worth visiting. To me, not really.


 Yes. Because it is a particular style known as Go-Go, unique to DC.



> Is it really a unique cultural identity of the city, which the other cities in the world don't have?
> I saw similar things many other cities in the world, for example, Paris in France.





> Also, those kind of rhythm and music are not originally from Africa, Central or South America?


 While it may have roots in African music (as a lot of American music does, considering the large number of Africans who were, more or less, forced to go to the Americas), music evolves over time. These rhythms are used in, as I said before, Go-Go, a particular style of music in DC, which also incorporates funk and hip-hop elements.

But you are completely missing the point. What I meant to demonstrate was that mass-produced, saccharine "culture" is not what gives a city it's "vibe". It is the street culture. It is what is on display as you travel the routes and do the things the natives do. It is their traditions and their quirks and their rich histories.

If I were to go to Japan, I would be interested in the festivals, and the swarms of Tokyo, and the cuisine, and the shikansen, among other things.

If I were to go to Korea, I would be interested in, again, the festivals, the cuisine, and seeing a Starcraft tournament. 

If I were to go to Germany, I would be interested in the castles, in the old breweries, in the oddness of Berlin, in watching a Bayern Munich soccer match, in the Landshuter Hochzeit. 

I don't care about pop music. I don't care about celebrities. And I don't care about skyscrapers built for the sake of telling the world, "hey, look at us! we are modern like you!".

I care about what makes that place special.


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## turigamot

Manila-X said:


> What I'm trying to show is with local Korean talents especially when it comes to popular music, they can promote their city (Seoul) in an exciting and entertaining way.
> 
> Dubai lack popular local artists or even if there are, they are not as popular nor have a cult following that K-Pop has.




I don't really understand that though. That is like a Canadian pointing at Justin Bieber and saying, "That guy! _He_ is representative of Canada! Aren't you interested in Canada now?"

Obviously, it doesn't work that way.


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## Skyprince

Manila-X said:


> What I'm trying to show is with local Korean talents especially when it comes to popular music, they can promote their city (Seoul) in an exciting and entertaining way.
> 
> Dubai lack popular local artists or even if there are, they are not as popular nor have a cult following that K-Pop has.


But K-pop isn't popular in Middle East, Africa, and even in most of Europe. They are popular in East Asia, most of Southeast Asia, and where else ??

Same with Dubai- their folk dance & Bedouin Music, while not popular in East Asia, is quite popular in almost every corner of Middle East and parts of Africa. Once u'r in Dubai and live there for few months u will get familiar with many local Emirati & expats celebrities.


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## HK999

It all depends. For some people the "best" city is the one where they find the love of their life. For others it's because of a highly paid job. I for one couldn't live in Dubai (or any Gulf cities for that matter), because of one simple reason: I'm not a Muslim, so I don't want Islam and its weird laws / culture to mix up with my daily life in any way.

And yeah I forgot: There are no (hot) girls on the streets of Dubai, all I see are men, men and men. I wonder how would everyone react if I approach a girl in a traditional tea / coffee shop, talk to her and ask her out lol?


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## Manila-X

HK999 said:


> It all depends. For some people the "best" city is the one where they find the love of their life. For others it's because of a highly paid job. I for one couldn't live in Dubai (or any Gulf cities for that matter), because of one simple reason: I'm not a Muslim, so I don't want Islam and its weird laws / culture to mix up with my daily life in any way.
> 
> And yeah I forgot: There are no (hot) girls on the streets of Dubai, all I see are men, men and men. I wonder how would everyone react if I approach a girl in a traditional tea / coffee shop, talk to her and ask her out lol?


Dubai is one of those *open cities* in The Middle East although traditional islamic laws still apply even to non-Muslims.

Hot girls? Belly dancers!


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## Manila-X

This is actually Dubai's first "action hero" :lol:


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## Skyprince

turigamot said:


> If I were to go to Japan, I would be interested in the festivals, and the swarms of Tokyo, and the cuisine, and the shikansen, among other things.
> 
> If I were to go to Korea, I would be interested in, again, the festivals, the cuisine, and seeing a Starcraft tournament.
> 
> If I were to go to Germany, I would be interested in the castles, in the old breweries, in the oddness of Berlin, in watching a Bayern Munich soccer match, in the Landshuter Hochzeit.


Then I can continue the same line, saying If I were to go to UAE, I would be interested to see the highly traditional & conservative Emirati/bedouin culture, the wonderful mix of people , the craziness on superlatives: having world's best, world's biggest, world's tallest etc, I can see a slice of Pakistan, India, Iran and Yemen in one modern place ( UAE ) , visiting exiotic Arabian Souqs, the great food culture, desert landscape and wonderful clean beaches everywhere I turn to etc.


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## Mr. Uncut

Was in Dubai several times, but im not really that impressed...no urban streetlife that would fit to the "wannabe-megacity-skyline", nightlife is dead and culture is blacked out by those big nonsense projects...how u can call that vibrant?...sry, but in several years Dubai will be a ghost town (exept maybe the old center), im quite sure about that! Dubai is nothing special, u will find much more impressive skylines all over the globe and if u like to see a melting pot of diffrent cultures try NYC, LA, SF or some western european cities, where those cultures actually are part of streetlife and city culture and not only there for low-wage-work !


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## SASH

For the Dubai haters. Check my DUBAI Photo Thread. It is in Dutch, but a Photo can say more than words. 
To get a got picture of it check al 4 pages!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1463042


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## SASH

Mr. Uncut said:


> Was in Dubai several times, but im not really that impressed...no urban streetlife that would fit to the "wannabe-megacity-skyline", nightlife is dead and culture is blacked out by those big nonsense projects...how u can call that vibrant?...sry, but in several years Dubai will be a ghost town (exept maybe the old center), im quite sure about that! Dubai is nothing special, u will find much more impressive skylines all over the globe and if u like to see a melting pot of diffrent cultures try NYC, LA, SF or some western european cities, where those cultures actually are part of streetlife and city culture and not only there for low-wage-work !


All US cities are as dull as it can be. Except NYC, LA, SF and Chicago


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## Mr. Uncut

SASH SCF said:


> Except NYC, LA, Chicago and SF all US cities are as dull as it can be.


^^:nuts:

Miami, Boston, New Orleans and so on? 

And the others are at least unique in geography and climate which leads to totally diffrent landscapes and activities! Also every bigger city has some streetlife...


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## SASH

Mr. Uncut said:


> ^^:nuts:
> 
> Miami, Boston, New Orleans and so on?
> 
> And the others are at least unique in geography and climate which leads to totally diffrent landscapes and activities! Also every bigger city has some streetlife...


I forgot to mention New Orleans. You are right. Miami and San Diego are okay.


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## Tom_Green

This is a skyscraper forum and Arabian Gulf cities are building their skyscrapers outside of the city center i.e. Dubai and Doha. That`s it.

A picture of 234sales.









Does this look urban? No, it looks fake. If you see many of that such pictures you will start to believe Dubai is fake.


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## eklips

HK999 said:


> It all depends. For some people the "best" city is the one where they find the love of their life. For others it's because of a highly paid job. I for one couldn't live in Dubai (or any Gulf cities for that matter), because of one simple reason: I'm not a Muslim, so I don't want Islam and its weird laws / culture to mix up with my daily life in any way.
> 
> And yeah I forgot: There are no (hot) girls on the streets of Dubai, all I see are men, men and men. I wonder how would everyone react if I approach a girl in a traditional tea / coffee shop, talk to her and ask her out lol?


So in other words you don't like Dubai because it's hard to be a sex tourist there? :crazy:


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## Fitzrovian

SASH SCF said:


> I forgot to mention New Orleans. You are right. Miami and San Diego are okay.


LOL... You forgot quite a lot: Boston, Philly, Washington, Seattle, Charleston... Even cities like Baltimore and Pittsburgh -- which are not exactly on the tourist map -- have plenty of surprises and a wealth of historic architecture.

And what about Vegas? Yeah... "as dull as can be" (for someone with no pulse).


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## Muttie

The problem with the Gulf Cities is they grew too rapidly. Most cities have some sort of normal expansion rate..growing slowly from old to new districts. Dubai has some very nice looking new districst, but most of them aren't really lively...just like the old parts, they aren't really that lively as well. 

Though, as some people seem to suggest, claiming it to be "fake" because of some sort of religious or cultural influence/differences - thats just plain nonsense.


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## Skyprince

SASH SCF said:


> For the Dubai haters. Check my DUBAI Photo Thread. It is in Dutch, but a Photo can say more than words.
> To get a got picture of it check al 4 pages!
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1463042


Wooowww yours is one of the best Dubai photo threads I've seen, just like Tom_Green's :cheers:

I hope you dont mind if I post some photos from your thread :





SASH SCF said:


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## Fitzrovian

Awesome picture:


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## Dimethyltryptamine

Omg NY and London have nothing on the bustling streets of Dubai. 




And while, yes, these photos prove the older district isn't totally void of any street life, it still proves it's really not even in the same league as other cities, even of similar size. My city is about the same size as Dubai yet certainly feels busier and looks busier than that photo shows.


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## eklips

^^ I've just toured a little bit of Brisbane on street view, to be honest it doesn't seem to be no Cairo or Tokyo either...


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## Fitzrovian

eklips said:


> ^^ I've just toured a little bit of Brisbane on street view, to be honest it doesn't seem to be no Cairo or Tokyo either...


You can't judge vibrance by streetview. How do you know when they were driving around? It could have been 7 am on a Sunday morning.

PS. The last thing Brisbane needs to aspire to is to be like Cairo.


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## AnOldBlackMarble

eklips said:


> So in other words you don't like Dubai because it's hard to be a sex tourist there? :crazy:


Actually he meant the exact opposite and the exact opposite is true. I've never been to Dubai but I have a good friend who worked there for several years and one of the things he did NOT like about Dubai is the massive "underground" sex industry. Essentially since single women are BANNED from walking around and going to clubs and bars on their own single men have no shot at meeting a woman, so they rely on prostitution which of course is underground, but everyone knows about it and tolerates. In fact it is an accepted practice among the local male population, INCLUDING married men, but of course it is hush-hush and everyone pretends it doesn't exist(except the poor girls most of whom are there as a result of sex trafficking).

I personally like the modern architecture of Dubai, but as a society I despise it. And yes the fact that in public you hardly see women(and when you do they are almost always foreign tourists) is nauseating. I will never travel to Dubai or spend a penny there as long as they have such a medieval culture in the 21st century, where they treat women like servants and sex slaves. :bash:

Here just one example from Al Jazeera. There are many more. 





It is only in societies where women are FREE that sex trafficking does not happen, but when you have a culture that denies men sexual activity before marriage, while at the same time teaching them that women are beneath them and subservient, well you have a recipe for sexual predation. I will never accept a society that is so willfully EVIL towards one half of humanity. They lock their own women away and bring in foreign women to rape. :bash:


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## Metro007

I was never in Dubai but i have to say, that for me also it looks like being very artificial, i'm sorry. The part i know from what Dubai wants to show us is a lot of exageration in my eyes. Building a huge city in the middle of the desert is just not normal if there is no need for it. They created an artificial city and tried to attract the more people to it with a lot of money, but it doesn't looks like a natural immigration.

I was in Doha in transit last month and what i could see from the airplane looked extremely artificial and over-clean too.

I believe that there must be some nice parts (old town). But why on hell having extended it (artificialy) with huge skyscrapers and artificial islands?


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## musiccity

SASH SCF said:


> All US cities are as dull as it can be. Except NYC, LA, SF and Chicago


Umm.. Nashville?


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## eklips

Fitzrovian said:


> You can't judge vibrance by streetview. How do you know when they were driving around? It could have been 7 am on a Sunday morning.
> 
> PS. The last thing Brisbane needs to aspire to is to be like Cairo.



Indeed, you can't judge it through a few pictures, but the same is true with the old Dubai pics posted here, which is exactly why I made this comment.

As for what Brisbane "should" aspire too, this was not my point, at all. 




AnOldBlackMarble said:


> Actually he meant the exact opposite and the exact opposite is true. I've never been to Dubai but I have a good friend who worked there for several years and one of the things he did NOT like about Dubai is the massive "underground" sex industry. Essentially since single women are BANNED from walking around and going to clubs and bars on their own single men have no shot at meeting a woman, so they rely on prostitution which of course is underground, but everyone knows about it and tolerates. In fact it is an accepted practice among the local male population, INCLUDING married men, but of course it is hush-hush and everyone pretends it doesn't exist(except the poor girls most of whom are there as a result of sex trafficking).
> 
> I personally like the modern architecture of Dubai, but as a society I despise it. And yes the fact that in public you hardly see women(and when you do they are almost always foreign tourists) is nauseating. I will never travel to Dubai or spend a penny there as long as they have such a medieval culture in the 21st century, where they treat women like servants and sex slaves. :bash:
> 
> Here just one example from Al Jazeera. There are many more.
> 
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> 
> It is only in societies where women are FREE that sex trafficking does not happen, but when you have a culture that denies men sexual activity before marriage, while at the same time teaching them that women are beneath them and subservient, well you have a recipe for sexual predation. I will never accept a society that is so willfully EVIL towards one half of humanity. They lock their own women away and bring in foreign women to rape. :bash:


I am not interested in debating the usual conflict of civilization crap with you here (no offense), my point was that refusing to travel to someplace because you can't try and screw the local girls was akin to sex tourism. Afterwards if you want to debate about whether we should ristrict the very idea of "sex tourism" to prostitution, that's another issue, I personnally think it goes much beyond.

Anyways, prostitution tends to be important in places where men are much more present than women, and since the sex ratio in the UAE is disproportionate, the consequences are understandable. It's not just a question of gender roles (well it is, but in the way you presented it). Also, forced prostitution happens in many areas including in western Europe and of course the United States. 


I am clearly not a fan of the Dubai neoliberal dream, and I have expressed my opinions on the issue of migrant workers a few times before. However I find the arguments that are used here to be ridiculous.


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## Fitzrovian

eklips said:


> Indeed, you can't judge it through a few pictures, but the same is true with the old Dubai pics posted here, which is exactly why I made this comment.


Well there is a difference between hand-picked photos, taken and selected for special effect, and random Google streetview snapshots. I am sure our friend from Brisbane could find pics of the Queen St area in Brisbane that would make it look like Times Square.

Anyway, even on Google you can tell that Brisbane is quite vibrant:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Brisb...d=Z-d-xiV6Wnx_gQo8rhDkEA&cbp=12,200.5,,0,-3.5

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Brisb...=lKmyyyiqH-V0T_x1_RFWCQ&cbp=12,232.03,,0,9.25


What were you expecting to see, Mumbai?


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## krnboy1009

Skyprince said:


> *More "old Dubai " pics*
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Nothing ugly about it, just typical average regular blue collar neighborhood to me.


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## eklips

Fitzrovian said:


> Well there is a difference between hand-picked photos, taken and selected for special effect, and random Google streetview snapshots. I am sure our friend from Brisbane could find pics of the Queen St area in Brisbane that would make it look like Times Square.
> 
> Anyway, even on Google you can tell that Brisbane is quite vibrant:
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Brisb...d=Z-d-xiV6Wnx_gQo8rhDkEA&cbp=12,200.5,,0,-3.5
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Brisb...=lKmyyyiqH-V0T_x1_RFWCQ&cbp=12,232.03,,0,9.25
> 
> 
> What were you expecting to see, Mumbai?


I actually looked at the center and even went through the spot you selected. It doesn't look any more frequented (I'm not going to say "vibrant" as this is a subjective, or at least cultural, term) then Dubai on the SASH SCF pics selected on this thread. Which is why I found this guy's argument about Brisbane being supposedly so much "busier" to be slightly arrogant and exaggerated :roll:


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## Dimethyltryptamine

eklips said:


> ^^ I've just toured a little bit of Brisbane on street view, to be honest it doesn't seem to be no Cairo or Tokyo either...


Lol I should hope not.... Brisbane is a city of 2 million, not 30.


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## Fitzrovian

eklips said:


> I actually looked at the center and even went through the spot you selected. It doesn't look any more frequented (I'm not going to say "vibrant" as this is a subjective, or at least cultural, term) then Dubai on the SASH SCF pics selected on this thread. Which is why I found this guy's argument about Brisbane being supposedly so much "busier" to be slightly arrogant and exaggerated :roll:


Again, I am not quite sure what you were expecting to see. People walking on top of each other?

This is Tokyo, couple of blocks from Shibuya Station:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Shibu...d=oXInCJeG6sJpTyO2taDvxQ&cbp=12,125.58,,0,1.5

New York, half a block from Times Square:

http://maps.google.com/?ll=40.75778...TPMvZBx-oFYUUuTNDWqA9Q&cbp=12,303.07,,0,-1.31

Your hometown, Paris, half a block from Champs Elysees:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris...id=R4YJ-xuLxznj7F0gird1Hw&cbp=12,49.5,,0,0.56

See what I mean?

Having been to Brisbane I can attest that it does indeed get very busy downtown, especially during peak hours. 

As for Dubai, I haven't been there but from the pics some of the street scenes looked busy and others not so much. But the overall impression is not one of an extraordinarily bustling city (considering these were supposed to be "showcase" photos). So it doesn't seem our friend from Brisbane was that far off the mark.


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## earthJoker

Fitzrovian said:


> Well there is a difference between hand-picked photos, taken and selected for special effect, and random Google streetview snapshots.


In street view it usually looks like they even intentionally tried to drive trough streets in empty hours. Of course those don't pics won't look busy.


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## Fitzrovian

earthJoker said:


> In street view it usually looks like they even intentionally tried to drive trough streets in empty hours. Of course those don't pics won't look busy.


 

That would certainly make sense, especially in cities like New York and London... Unless they wanted to sit in traffic all day.


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## Dimethyltryptamine

Thanks, man! I've been to Dubai a few times on my way to Europe, and from what I have seen, I can say with confidence that it is hardly a bustling city. It's not the end of the world because of that, I just can't stand when people make it out to be something it is not! Parts, very small parts can be very crowded, but all-in-all, it's not really a busy city. 

Now Brisbane isn't the busiest city in the world, I never tried to make claim to that, but as a city of comparable size to Dubai (in fact, it's a hell of a lot smaller when you factor in Dubai's transient population) but like most larg(er) Australian cities, it punches well above its weight. 










http://www.flickr.com/photos/craigjewell/








http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3386148733/sizes/l/








http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4867463214/sizes/l/in/photostream/
























Aussie Bhoy (ssc member)

On the average working day, this is what Brisbane looks like. Note: these aren't taken at peak-hour, either... that is even busier again.


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## Fitzrovian

Thanks for these great pics, they bring back some fond memories. Brisbane is awesome.



Dimethyltryptamine said:


>


Now that's what I call a bustling town.


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## Acosta

Great pics from Brissy.


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## Skyprince

I've been to Australia ( Perth & Fremantle ) and I found both Perth & Fremantle are* almost dead *after 8 pm . Someone told me other main cities in Australia ( except for biggest ones like Sydney & Melbourne ) are similar too. Vast majority of restaurants, shops, etc are closed by eight.

By contrast, Dubai is very alive till late midnight, the noise, the vibe, hustle & bustle are simply awesome , There are many restaurants, shops & hypermarkets opening 24-7 ! It could be the local Emirati tradition of having dining/shopping during nighttime and this could be a culture brought by South Asians- in India for example, cities are all alive till late midnight. From some of the most luxurious shops/restaurants in the world to the crappiest-looking ones, the choice in Dubai & UAE is* very very very very diversed*, something I didn't see in Australia ( with its quality control ) . 

This is not comparing, because it's a matter of different lifestyles , but just to deny the notion that Dubai is "hardly a bustling city ". In fact, the extreme opposite is true and Dubai is the *last place* ever you can call such.


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## Manila-X

Or San Antonio!


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## seaniscoming

Skyprince said:


> But K-pop isn't popular in Middle East, Africa, and even in most of Europe. They are popular in East Asia, most of Southeast Asia, and where else ??
> 
> Same with Dubai- their folk dance & Bedouin Music, while not popular in East Asia, is quite popular in almost every corner of Middle East and parts of Africa. Once u'r in Dubai and live there for few months u will get familiar with many local Emirati & expats celebrities.


I think that you underestimate k-pop.
Even thoungh I'm not a fan of K-pop, k-pop is gaining the world recognition more and more.

For example, there is even k-pop charts on Billboard in US.
http://www.billboard.com/#/charts/k-pop-hot-100

There are *Japan *hot 100, *Korea* hot 100, *UK* charts, *German* Charts, *canadian* charts but * There is NO UAE DUBAI CHARTS.*

Also, k-pop is spreading in latin america amd europe even if is still small.


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## Skyprince

Some people tend to say Arab Gulf cities lacks nightlife . 

But why Dubai, Doha etc needs nightlife ? :dunno: It's not part of local culture so why need to "fake" it with something brought from abroad ? I prefer to see a city in its original form as it can :cheers:


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## Skyprince

Dimethyltryptamine said:


> On the average working day, this is what Brisbane looks like. Note: these aren't taken at peak-hour, either... that is even busier again.


Because the climate , culture and lifestyle of Brisbane and Dubai are different.

Dubai is hot with non-stop sunshine ( which cannot be faulted ) thus part of the "crowds" are transfered into shopping malls and endless shops during daytime - But still many parts of Dubai are very, very bustling with pedestrians , again have u been to Deira ? Deira area is full of people during daytime, and even bigger ( and far more crowded ) than downtown Perth.

Also in the Gulf most people prefer to have "indoor shopping" thus the popularity of shopping malls . That said, street shopping is very popular at night.


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## Dimethyltryptamine

Skyprince said:


> I've been to Australia ( Perth & Fremantle ) and I found both Perth & Fremantle are* almost dead *after 8 pm . Someone told me other main cities in Australia ( except for biggest ones like Sydney & Melbourne ) are similar too. Vast majority of restaurants, shops, etc are closed by eight.


Perth has archaic trading laws. Most shops shut at 5pm. Though the bigger cities, even the Gold Coast and Adelaide allow trading later than that and feel busier at street level, despite the fact they're smaller cities. Sydney and Melbourne are a ways ahead when it comes to trading well into the night, but Brisbane is catching up to its southern counterparts. 



Skyprince said:


> Because the climate , culture and lifestyle of Brisbane and Dubai are different.
> 
> Dubai is hot ( which cannot be faulted ) thus part of the "crowds" are transfered into shopping malls and endless shops during daytime - But still most of Dubai are very, very bustling with pedestrians , again have u been to Deira ? Deira area is full of people during daytime, and even bigger ( and far more crowded ) than downtown Perth.
> 
> Also in the Gulf most people prefer to have "indoor shopping" thus the popularity of shopping malls . That said, street shopping is very popular at night.


I'm not doubting the difference in culture, but you can't say that Dubai is bustling, rah rah rah, when I know damn right it's not, then blame the cultural and climatic differences. I know Dubai is hot, that's generally the case when you build a city on the edge of a desert. _Most_ of Dubai is _not_ bustling with pedestrians lol... No, I haven't been to Deira and I wouldn't doubt it's busier than Perth. Perth isn't an example I gave because I knew it isn't busy, and is significantly lesser in size to Dubai.


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## Manila-X

seaniscoming said:


> I think that you underestimate k-pop.
> Even thoungh I'm not a fan of K-pop, k-pop is gaining the world recognition more and more.
> 
> For example, there is even k-pop charts on Billboard in US.
> http://www.billboard.com/#/charts/k-pop-hot-100
> 
> There are *Japan *hot 100, *Korea* hot 100, *UK* charts, *German* Charts, *canadian* charts but * There is NO UAE DUBAI CHARTS.*
> 
> Also, k-pop is spreading in latin america amd europe even if is still small.


If there are any known popular entertainers or musicians that are from Dubai, they would be part of *The Arab hot 100*.

MTV Arabia is based in Dubai though it mostly show popular music from all around The Middle East especially from Lebanon.

On the other than, the hip-hop scene in Dubai is growing though most of its rap artists / groups are from other Middle Eastern countries but live in this city.


----------



## oliver999

we should respect other cultures, these houses and streets may look not so good for us,but good for arab people.


----------



## Manila-X

Skyprince said:


> Some people tend to say Arab Gulf cities lacks nightlife .
> 
> But why Dubai, Doha etc needs nightlife ? :dunno: It's not part of local culture so why need to "fake" it with something brought from abroad ? I prefer to see a city in its original form as it can :cheers:


Majority of those participating in this thread are from the western world including Aus/NZ. 

And most westerners would expect the same culture and lifestyle of their cities in eastern and arab cities.

Nightlife may matter to westerners visiting this region but it does not to those native of this region especially to most Arabs.

As with Dubai, at least this city allows special permits for western expats to purchase and drink alcohol, and even some nightlife areas where they can hang out.


----------



## AltinD

jbkayaker12 said:


> ... Foreigners visit Vegas to enjoy and have fun in the city, foreigners that visit UAE come to Dubai to work as contract "slave" workers.


Go back to class, basic calculus is about to start


----------



## AltinD

Taller said:


> Skyprince, I'm assuming all the photos posted are your own, right?


Yes, no worries


----------



## Skyprince

Taller said:


> Skyprince, I'm assuming all the photos posted are your own, right?


On the first page yea all of them are mine. Forgot to mention this since my focus is on the topic, but now edited.


----------



## Skyprince

Fitzrovian said:


> I have no idea why you keep comparing Dubai to Perth. Perth is only the fourth or fifth most important city in Australia, roughly half the population of Dubai, and one of the most isolated cities in the world.
> 
> I mean if you want to tell us that Dubai is more vibrant than Perth I don't think you are gonna see anyone up in arms. But that's not a very ambitious benchmark for a city like Dubai, which is a global tourist destination, supposedly an alpha world city, and a major air hub.


I was just anwering Dimethyl. Still can take Bangkok's case in my post, which is far bigger than Dubai and itself a huge populous city & big tourism hub


----------



## jbkayaker12

AltinD said:


> Go back to class, basic calculus is about to start


Thanks but no thanks, Skyprince might be interested.:cheers:


----------



## Manila-X

AltinD said:


> Dubai has actually a very busy nightlife and not only restricted on weeknights, with World top DJs stopping by more often and regularely then in the cities of the majority of people who have posted here.


Compared to other Middle Eastern cities, yes.

But despite the world top DJs or entertainers visiting the city, Dubai is still new to that scene and has yet to produce local acts.


----------



## Manila-X

Skyprince said:


> Simple logic:
> 
> *Bangkok* is said to be the most vibrant city in Southeast Asia.
> 
> But actually, only a few places in Bangkok city are "bustling" - the 3 malls, Khao San Road, etc. while most of Bangkok are relatively calm and made of residential area.
> 
> Same with Dubai- there are places which are bustling like the Burj-Khalifa Dubai Mall, Deira, Bur Dubai , along the Dubai Creek etc. which are exactly comparable to places in Bangkok I stated . Most other parts of Dubai are either residentials or semi-vibrant, lesser-known districts
> 
> Since I've been to Perth I found only few places within the city area are vibrant- along St Georges Street, parts of Northbridge etc. The rest of Perth are calm.
> 
> In Dubai, the "vibrant" locations are alot more than Perth, and more widespread into different areas. Not only Dubai filled with huge record-breaking shopping malls, but also it also has loads of vibrant districts full of street-shopping activity during daytime ( and intensified at night !) :cheers:


Bangkok as said to be the most vibrant city in ASEAN? Most Manileños will not agree with that!


----------



## Skyprince

Manila-X said:


> Compared to other Middle Eastern cities, yes.
> 
> But despite the world top DJs or entertainers visiting the city, Dubai is still new to that scene and has yet to produce local acts.


Still I think the number of local artists etc don't really make a city full of soul .
*Muscat ( Oman ), Sana'a ( Yemen ), Damascus ( Syria )* ... we never call these cities fake /soulless but ask any SSC forumers who aren't from these cities, if they know any local acts from there ? :shifty::shifty:



Manila-X said:


> Bangkok as said to be the most vibrant city in ASEAN? Most Manileños will not agree with that!


Still due to its huge size, high tourism flow and very active street activity IMO Bangkok is the most vibrant.


----------



## kwonphilip

Skyprince said:


> ^^ No problem, there is always difference on how people from the West and people from the East perceive things


I am from the east, and has lived some years in Southeast Asia as well as Korea, and i still think your pictures are pretty bad


----------



## kwonphilip

Skyprince said:


> Indeed, but I can hardly name famous artists, entertainers, scientists, pets etc who are originally from say, Amsterdam ? or *Seoul ? *


Really? Like, I don't know, a great majority of K-pop singers, actors(some of the highest paid in the world outside of the USA), and idols? Or the man who cloned the first dog, or world's first metal typewrite a long time ago, and so on?
For the great majority of people in the USA, the western world, Japan and Korea, the only thing they know for the gulf cities are high buildings and oil money


----------



## SASH

Skyprince said:


> Wooowww yours is one of the best Dubai photo threads I've seen, just like Tom_Green's :cheers:


Thanx .

By the way. I think you can make a comparison between Perth and Dubai.
Dubai has more inhabitants, but the size (Area) of these cities is almost the same. Perth has more Family houses. That is why it has less inhabitants.

I posted a link to my Dubai Photo's and I also have one for Perth. Here you go:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1323211&highlight=


----------



## Manila-X

Skyprince said:


> Still I think the number of local artists etc don't really make a city full of soul .
> *Muscat ( Oman ), Sana'a ( Yemen ), Damascus ( Syria )* ... we never call these cities fake /soulless but ask any SSC forumers who aren't from these cities, if they know any local acts from there ? :shifty::shifty:
> 
> 
> 
> Still due to its huge size, high tourism flow and very active street activity IMO Bangkok is the most vibrant.


Tourism flow is only a small factor in measure of vibrancy. And the face Manila is bigger than Bangkok there is vibrancy in every part of the city. But anyway, both cities are equal in vibrancy.

For now, our focus is in Dubai which is still the economic hub of the Arab world. The cities you have mentioned is another story.


----------



## AltinD

Manila-X said:


> Compared to other Middle Eastern cities, yes.
> 
> But despite the world top DJs or entertainers visiting the city, Dubai is still new to that scene and has yet to produce local acts.


Nope, compared to many other places worldwide ... and what has the local acts to do with anything, not that there aren't any.


----------



## Suburbanist

By all matter and in any case, "vibrancy", "street life", "soul" are all extremely overrated concepts when applied to evaluate cities.


----------



## Muttie

Manila-X said:


> Tourism flow is only a small factor in measure of vibrancy. And the face Manila is bigger than Bangkok there is vibrancy in every part of the city. But anyway, both cities are equal in vibrancy.
> 
> For now, our focus is in Dubai which is still the economic hub of the Arab world. The cities you have mentioned is another story.


There are many economic hubs in the "Arab World".


----------



## d'.'b

Skyprince said:


> Still due to its huge size, high tourism flow and very active street activity IMO Bangkok is the most vibrant.


^^Manila is, without doubt, larger... and I don't think you need tourists to call a city vibrant.


----------



## Dimethyltryptamine

Suburbanist said:


> By all matter and in any case, "vibrancy", "street life", "soul" are all extremely overrated concepts when applied to evaluate cities.


No, they're not. I would explain it to you, but I figure there's little/no point. I'm honestly surprised you're on this forum some times. Your views are so out of touch with every single thing this forum stands for. Have you ever been into a city? Do you know what it takes to establish vibrant street life? It's not two story houses on quarter acre block with white picket fences - believe me.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I have never lived in a farm or mountain hut.

I just insist streets are merely functional spaces design to take people from A to B. And I do like nice buildings within each all activities can happen, as long as the public spaces are as sterile as an operating room, to make an analogy.


----------



## DiggerD21

^^ sterile streets? Welcome to boredom 2.0!

About "famous" acts in Dubai: Are the "Worlds Top DJs" there because they expect a big crowd receptive to their music sets or are they going there because of $$$? I suspect the latter. For me a city has soul when it attracts artists not because of the money, but because of all other factors (such as receptive audience, networking with other artists, getting inspiration etc.). A city doesn't need to produce world-famous artists. It would need to create space for artists simply being artists and not being money-making machines. This in turn would create an environment where these artists can create something new, through inspiration.


----------



## earthJoker

Cleanliness is next to fordliness! Praise our Ford.


----------



## Rinchinlhumbe

Cedar Teeth said:


> It's envy because most people in the West are forced to ride bicycles or overcrowded public tansport to work by their socialist governments.
> You hate what you can't have and the truth is most Europeans can't have the life of luxury people have in Dubai for example, so their natural defence mechanism is to convince themselves that having a spacious home with a private parking space for spacious cars and a being able to drive to work through properly built urban expressways (instead of killing your prostate in a bike or your lung in a mouldy metro station) is somehow fake and soulless.


Dont confuse 21st century Europe with 1970s Peoples Republic of China.


----------



## Rinchinlhumbe

Shanghai is a similar case, btw. 
Go to Pudong and you find something like Dubai, it just been developed and it has been developed to show off. Streets get empty after 7pm and there is not much to do. 
Puxi also has its skyline as well but it also has a past, some tradition, a lot of old buildings and atmoshpere.
That said, also Pudong was populated before the 1990s but nowadays you really have to look hard to find any relics from the Maoist era. In 1968 Dubais population was 20,000 people. This means there must be something like a history to this place but according to what you read, see and hear Dubai it is not something the locals seem to be proud of.


----------



## briker

Skyprince said:


> Indeed, but I can hardly name famous artists, entertainers, scientists, pets etc who are originally from say, Amsterdam ? or Seoul ?


ooh, bad comparison!! hno: 
Amsterdam, glorious capital of a former colonial power and still a vibrant, metropolis? 
Seoul, a 2000+year old city, capital of the Han dynasty, and now a world design mega world city of 10 million people?


----------



## Fitzrovian

Copperknickers said:


> The overarching reason is that people see the Gulf states as artificial. Being in a desert doesn't exactly help, the likes of LA, Las Vegas and Tel Aviv are all seen as 'artificial' because we in the West associate deserts with barrenness, places where life is not supposed to exist. There is nothing natural in Dubai: little history, few wild areas, and most importantly, everything is manmade and engineered. Whenever people try to create a 'utopia' people are always skeptical. In fact I suspect a big reason why Dubai is seen as soulless is that it is so perfectly engineered: there is no social competition, no real middle class, no rough areas, no intermediate areas of any sort. There are only the labourers and workers, and the super rich. Only the skyscrapers, and the desert. Only the sand, and the steel. Nothing in between, nothing which is uncertain or surprising or interesting.


 
Tel Aviv is seen as artificial?? First time I hear this. There is nothing artificial about LA either. Both cities have grown organically, and are every bit as natural as any city in Europe or Asia even though they are much younger.

Las Vegas, on the other hand, is a different story...


----------



## Spookvlieger

Probably worst examples of soulles and fake are sovjet cities that only consist of commies. Anotherone such city is Brasilia.


----------



## kwonphilip

Skyprince said:


> But Singapore, KL, Jakarta, Egyptian cities etc are full of such old structures, which aren't as solid as what u can find in South Korea, Japan, Europe etc.
> It could be the weather, as in hot climate, we don't need to consider weather-proofing too much .
> 
> 
> 
> But not many people from outside Middle East know about celebrities/pop-singers/ idols from *Yemen, Syria, Oman, Jordan *etc. but we never call these places "Soulless". Why is that ?


Yes, but like I said, I have lived or at least visited Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, and Vietnam, and, though i believe there are traditional areas in Dubai and such, I think there could have been much better pictures. Of course, this is just a hypothesis, and may not be true.


----------



## kwonphilip

Fitzrovian said:


> Tel Aviv is seen as artificial?? First time I hear this. There is nothing artificial about LA either. Both cities have grown organically, and are every bit as natural as any city in Europe or Asia even though they are much younger.
> 
> Las Vegas, on the other hand, is a different story...


Tel Aviv and LA is on the coast so that explains a little.
I do not believe Dubai is lifeless, but I do get what the person you responded to is saying. I mean, cities in the middle of the desert, such as Phoenix and LA, are pretty lifeless relative to other cities.


----------



## zdaddy233

kwonphilip said:


> Tel Aviv and LA is on the coast so that explains a little.
> I do not believe Dubai is lifeless, but I do get what the person you responded to is saying. I mean, cities in the middle of the desert, such as Phoenix and LA, are pretty lifeless relative to other cities.


I wouldnt call LA lifeless (or locate it in a desert either), it just has a very different vibrancy than any other place I can think of. Spot on with Phoenix though, that place is useless.


----------



## Manila-X

LA? Lifeless?

This is the one city where you would rather spend your time *outdoors*!


----------



## eklips

nomarandlee said:


> So easiness of chatting up local girls or even have a fling makes you a sex tourist. :nuts: Sometimes you try way to hard to fight ghost.


No, but ultimately deciding that a place is worth visiting only if their is a possibility to screw local girls kind of is.


----------



## earthJoker

Oh don't be such a []


----------



## AltinD

eklips said:


> No, but ultimately deciding that a place is worth visiting only if their is a possibility to screw local girls kind of is.


If by 'locals' he means the minority Citizens, then he hardly stands a chance, if he means the Residents, then depends how much of ... ahem ... 'nomarandlee' he's in real life too :lol:


----------



## Rinchinlhumbe

this threads gets way too lame

some nice alternative proposals for new flaming and bashing:
- Chinese cities look bland
- big German cities look ugly (because they were destroyed in WW2)
- US American cities look boring (they do not have snxy history)
- Russian cities look rundwon and consist of decrepit Soviet apartment blocks
- cities in Antarctica are nondescript, etc.


----------



## Spookvlieger

It's just all new cities around the world that where invented for the car that are bland and boring.... It's just a shame that cities on the Arabic peninsula didn't really look to the future and build car orientated cities of a past era while they had all the money and such to build better.

Bland 'new' car orientated cities around the world: Take a look at the age of these cities. That's why it's kinda sad cities on the Arabic peninsula are still build like that.

*Brasilia, Brazil (1956)*


















http://www.terracap.df.gov.br/internet/arquivos/0019200796.jpg









*
Milton keynes, UK (1960)*


















http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/d/13646-1/milton-keynes-aerial-aa13356b.jpg

*Gaborone, Botswana (1960)*









http://www.tourismtheworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Gaborone.jpg

*Dunaújváros, Hungary, (1950)*








http://www.dunaujvarospiac.hu/_articles/dunaujvaros_003.jpg

There are tons of those cities worldwide...


----------



## Spookvlieger

Rinchinlhumbe said:


> this threads gets way too lame
> 
> some nice alternative proposals for new flaming and bashing:
> - Chinese cities look bland
> - big German cities look ugly (because they were destroyed in WW2)
> - US American cities look boring (they do not have snxy history)
> - Russian cities look rundwon and consist of decrepit Soviet apartment blocks
> - cities in Antarctica are nondescript, etc.


The difference is also that cities on the Arabian peninsula all seem to copy themselves. "Lets all build supertalls in a net of highways with no correlation at all"

While those other countries you mentioned have cities enough that are not like you discribed. 

I think Arabic countries need to promote their old city centers more, wich are now neglected and kinda rundown in favor of a bunch of supertalls sitting in a desert...


----------



## Skyprince

joshsam said:


> It's just all new cities around the world that where invented for the car that are bland and boring.... It's just a shame that cities on the Arabic peninsula didn't really look to the future and build car orientated cities of a past era while they had all the money and such to build better.
> 
> Bland 'new' car orientated cities around the world: Take a look at the age of these cities. That's why it's kinda sad cities on the Arabic peninsula are still build like that.
> 
> 
> While those other countries you mentioned have cities enough that are not like you discribed.
> 
> I think Arabic countries need to promote their old city centers more, wich are now neglected and kinda rundown in favor of a bunch of supertalls sitting in a desert...


Those cities are "Bland" ? IMO many people feel they are bland because they have vast residential neighborhood and things are brand new. We cannot blame them for being "new".

I think that old parts of Dubai, Doha , Muscat are very well-kept and very charming ( I've been to Dubai and Muscat and I love their old districts ) :cheers: . I don't think u can promote older parts of Dubai , for example- they are already too packed and bustling with activities day and night, and due to husle & bustle and for preservation purpose I don't think many people should reside there .

With increased population and increased income, there is serious need to expand cities in the Arabian Gulf , thus we see new townships being built. There's no other way.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^You're reading next to my facts and keep on saying the same and the same like you did with other people here. Yes new townships should be build, but not in the way they are doing, they are not creating a city fabric at all. You can't blame cities for being new no, but you refuse to see that there are other ways to build cities.

Anyway I'm not going in discussion with you because that has no use. You obviously have never seen 'new towns' that where build for people, not for cars and skyscrapers. Compaired to those, these are bland, ugly, devoided of life and so on...


----------



## Jonesy55

I don't think either side is going to convince the other here. People just have different tastes and like different things, that's all there is to it.


----------



## Skyprince

joshsam said:


> ^^You're reading next to my facts and keep on saying the same and the same like you did with other people here. Yes new townships should be build, but not in the way they are doing, they are not creating a city fabric at all. You can't blame cities for being new no, but you refuse to see that there are other ways to build cities.
> 
> Anyway I'm not going in discussion with you because that has no use. You obviously have never seen 'new towns' that where build for people, not for cars and skyscrapers. Compaired to those, these are bland, ugly, devoided of life and so on...


But in what way Arabian Gulf cities are "not built for people" ? From what I saw, walking in some of the most unknown yet typical neighborhoods in Dubai & Abu Dhabi I don't see them being built for "skyscrapers and cars" but they are very real, built for human convenience.

Take Dubai for example- there are many people living in the most downtown parts ( in apartments, flats in different shape, etc ) well-served by metro lines and buses and there are also car-centric neighborhoods mostly far from downtown. Almost all major cities in the world have such mix. 

And I think Dubai, Doha cannot be compared to the likes of Brasilia, Astana, because they have much longer history than latter. I didn't feel Dubai a bland/ brand-new city at all, because huge % of downtown Dubai are *traditional* with decade/century-old structures. 



Jonesy55 said:


> I don't think either side is going to convince the other here. People just have different tastes and like different things, that's all there is to it.


Indeed people have different tastes but at least should not create new facts they aren't sure about ( e.g. saying Dubai only has rich citizens and poor South Asians/expats, which is nonsense, when the truth is Dubai has huge middle-class population ) . Or saying things are unique to Gulf cities when the truth is , all major cities in the world share the similar ( e.g. all major cities in the world have older and newer districts/neighborhoods , its clear-cut, so why single out Gulf cities ? ) 

I don't see anyone who has been to/live in Dubai ( except very few ) say it's a "fake" city ?


----------



## Dimethyltryptamine

Jonesy55 said:


> I don't think either side is going to convince the other here. People just have different tastes and like different things, that's all there is to it.


Makes you wonder why the question was asked in the first place


----------



## AltinD

Guys, cities evolve (grow) naturally around and near easy access routes. In the past were rivers, bays and valleys, today are existing highways. 

Also the fast expanding modern era cities face other challenges that those ''historical'' ''soulfull'' haven't like land ownership, zoning laws, airport restrictions and so on ..... so got a brain, use it 

PS: The lack of genuine old historical buildings in the Gulf is because they are new cities, the population before was really scarse, the desert conditions are very harsh on construction materials and since it's desert, there are no materials to use in the first place. Old buildings would simply not last. Actually here in Dubai it has been normal for buildings to be demolished after 20 - 30 years.


----------



## Disturbing Reality

Skyprince said:


> *so why single out Gulf cities ?* )
> 
> I don't see anyone who has been to/live in Dubai ( except very few ) say it's a "fake" city ?


it's not just dubai... american cities, east european, russian, chinese, brazilian.. and the list goes on.. and on.. and on... the only thing is, you're pushing it too much as if dubai is being singled out.. it's not! if only, you look beyond your beloved gulf cities!


----------



## Dimethyltryptamine

I feel like through out this entire thread I've been talking to a brick wall... one that argues back. If you're not willing to listen to the opinions of others, don't ask the question in the first place. 

As above said, it's not something that's native to Gulf cities... I've tried quite a few times to make the OP aware that Dubai isn't the only city labeled soulless/tacky/fake, etc, using other example cities. To no surprise, it appears to fall on deaf ears, and he just turns it around to make it look like everyone's attacking Dubai.


----------



## eklips

^^ Aren't you also acting like a brick wall? :crazy:


----------



## Dimethyltryptamine

This brick wall is going to crush you, son


----------



## garddemmet

Please change the title to why I say Arabian Gulf cities look "Real" and "Bustling" ! That would be more appropriate


----------



## henrique42

I suppose cities, like governments, are a good mirror of the mentality of its people


----------



## mw123

Sorry but those photos at the beginning of this thread have furthered my view on Dubai being soulless. There is hardly any people around and those streets and buildings do not look like 'old districts'. Those buildings look like boring 1970's concrete boxes with closed shops/nobody in them


----------



## megacity30

garddemmet said:


> Please change the title to why I say Arabian Gulf cities look "Real" and "Bustling" ! That would be more appropriate


 There is no such thing as "Arabian Gulf" cities. 
Since time immemorial and in contemporary times, the name is Persian Gulf.
Kindly refer to the following URL for more details on this controversy and why the name is always Persian Gulf:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf_naming_dispute


----------



## AltinD

mw123 said:


> Sorry but those photos at the beginning of this thread have furthered my view on Dubai being soulless. There is hardly any people around and those streets and buildings do not look like 'old districts'. Those buildings look like boring 1970's concrete boxes with closed shops/nobody in them


Those buildings are from the 70s, 80s and 90s ... and there are no people around and the shops are closed because the pictures are probably taken in between 1:30 and 4:00 PM that is siesta tiime in that part of town.

I personally am not attracted to that part of town, although they are the busiest streets in town (outside of the siesta time of course :tongue3


EDIT: By busiest I mean appart The Walk @JBR and Marina Walk in Dubai Marina and the Promenade around Dubai Fountain under the shadow of Burj Khalifa.


----------



## kwonphilip

zdaddy233 said:


> I wouldnt call LA lifeless (or locate it in a desert either), it just has a very different vibrancy than any other place I can think of. Spot on with Phoenix though, that place is useless.


Sorry, not sure where my mind was when i was typing this. I meant LV, as in Las Vegas.


----------



## kwonphilip

Rinchinlhumbe said:


> this threads gets way too lame
> 
> some nice alternative proposals for new flaming and bashing:
> - Chinese cities look bland
> - big German cities look ugly (because they were destroyed in WW2)
> - US American cities look boring (they do not have snxy history)
> - Russian cities look rundwon and consist of decrepit Soviet apartment blocks
> - cities in Antarctica are nondescript, etc.


Maybe so, but this thread was started by a person trying to defend the view that Gulf cities are not fake and soulless. If you want you may go start a thread on those subjects.


----------



## Skyprince

mw123 said:


> Sorry but those photos at the beginning of this thread have furthered my view on Dubai being soulless. There is hardly any people around and those streets and buildings do not look like 'old districts'. Those buildings look like boring 1970's concrete boxes with closed shops/nobody in them


But most of Cairo, Sana'a, Damascus, Amman, Aden, etc are filled with pretty similar structures. So based on what u said, vast majority of Middle Eastern cities are *soulless* then ? :dunno: Many if not most buildings that u will find in most Middle Eastern cities are not century-old but rather decade-old , and the definition of "historical buildings" vary between people 

I've been to Egypt and Yemen, and I must say their cities are full of such decade-old buildings, with *very little* structures built before 1900s ( in Cairo only the pyramids and very few buildings, same with Sana'a- only the Old Sana'a district is very old whereas the rest are decade-old structures ) . I don't see any difference with Dubai or Abu Dhabi - just that there are loads of new developments in UAE due to its prosperity :dunno:


This is the very old district of Dubai called "Bastakiya ", with Dubai Creek photos :cheers:









http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/al-bastakiya-dubai-a-quiet-and-charming-hideaway











http://www.google.com.my/imgres?q=d...=159&tbnw=205&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=0CEwQrQMwAw










http://www.google.com.my/imgres?q=d...&tbnw=195&start=175&ndsp=30&ved=0CL0GEK0DMLMB


----------



## Skyprince

More of Bastakiya, the old district of Dubai :cheers:









http://www.google.com.my/imgres?q=b...=164&tbnw=250&start=0&ndsp=17&ved=0CGcQrQMwCA











http://www.google.com.my/imgres?q=b...=164&tbnw=245&start=0&ndsp=17&ved=0CE0QrQMwAg










http://www.google.com.my/imgres?q=b...tart=86&ndsp=37&ved=0COoDEK0DMGM&tx=102&ty=44


----------



## AltinD

Bastakia is not really old though


----------



## Skyprince

^^ They were first built around 1890s , I think its historical enough for me , but others may find its not extremely old .

I think that Arabs and South Asians in general are very expressive and speak their mind quite freely ( assertive ) , and in Dubai I met different kind of people ( strangers ) who tend to share their experience, stories and problems with me . I got a very emotional and "soulfull" impression on Dubai & UAE in general


----------



## adam_india

I've never been to the Middle East so will not comment, but one thing in Europe is that you see more cars than people and it makes it feel soulless as you don't have this human interaction. This is of course not applicable to the older parts or the Pedestrian only zones where you see lot of people moving about. Perhaps has to do with the weather too, during the winters it gets dark early and you really don't see that many people around.


----------



## Skyprince

^^ I've been to India 4 times and I must say Dubai is just as bustling as Bangalore and Chennai - full of people and crowds all the time in many parts, full of noise , loads of street activities while many shops & restaurants open till midnight. Though Dubai is quite more orderly and neat.


----------



## Face81

Imre said:


> November 2009


[/QUOTE]










































































I love the completeness and city-like feel in this part of the city. No other area in Dubai is like this! :cheers:


----------



## El_Greco

These cities seem to have been put together with little to no thought ; sprawl, cars, highways, no public transport, no sustainability.


----------



## Aaronj09

^^ yup, all those pictures posted above aren't doing Middle Eastern cities any justice.


----------



## El_Greco

I wasnt talking about photos.


----------



## Federicoft

Skyprince said:


> Those cities are "Bland" ? IMO many people feel they are bland because they have vast residential neighborhood and things are brand new. We cannot blame them for being "new".
> 
> I think that old parts of Dubai, Doha , Muscat are very well-kept and very charming ( I've been to Dubai and Muscat and I love their old districts ) :cheers: . I don't think u can promote older parts of Dubai , for example- they are already too packed and bustling with activities day and night, and due to husle & bustle and for preservation purpose I don't think many people should reside there .
> 
> With increased population and increased income, there is serious need to expand cities in the Arabian Gulf , thus we see new townships being built. There's no other way.


One thing is for sure: their urbanization pattern is archaic. High rises, functional separation between zones, motorways between those zones, totally car-oriented system. 
This is how cities were defined in the Athens Charter in 1933. This concept was especially popular in the 1950s and 1960 among urban planners.

Building cities like that in the 21th century doesn't seem remotely interesting, at least in this part of the world. People here seem more interested in key points of our present and future, things that have a positive impact on our quality of life and even on the survival of mankind in the following centuries: smart growth, energy efficiency, conciliation of man and nature, equity, social and enviromental sustainability. Cities based on the Athens Charter are interestingly among the worst performers in these areas, they perform much worse than Medieval European city centres for instance.


----------



## Aaronj09

El_Greco said:


> I wasnt talking about photos.


You say the cities are put together with no thought, and I'm saying the photos aren't doing these cities any justice or disproving your point.


----------



## kwonphilip

El_Greco said:


> These cities seem to have been put together with little to no thought ; sprawl, cars, highways, no public transport, no sustainability.


This^
Even with the new tall buildings, although with many of them look good and stunning alone, I do not agree much with the way they are put together, and believe that some buildings should have been possibly spaced out more or built in a different area of the city.

To SkyPrince, now I wont say whether or not your pictures are old or young(as in the buildings within the pictures), but I will say that they do a much better job of proving your point than the pictures you originally posted. They may only be a few decades or a century old, but they look very pleasing to the eye, maybe even more so than the skyscrapers in the city, while also looking lively and real.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Thanks for the pics on the previous page. Those places definitely don't look like I'd like my cities to be.


----------



## Skyprince

kwonphilip said:


> This^
> Even with the new tall buildings, although with many of them look good and stunning alone, I do not agree much with the way they are put together, and believe that some buildings should have been possibly spaced out more or built in a different area of the city.
> 
> To SkyPrince, now I wont say whether or not your pictures are old or young(as in the buildings within the pictures), but I will say that they do a much better job of proving your point than the pictures you originally posted. They may only be a few decades or a century old, but they look very pleasing to the eye, maybe even more so than the skyscrapers in the city, while also looking lively and real.


Okay, but a real city should be *REAL* - thus Dubai cannot escape semi-old structures ( whether pleasing to eyes or not ) as in what I posted in the First page. 

I don't know what's wrong with architecture of the 70's and 80's ? :dunno: They are still part of city's REAL history , whether pleasing or ugly to eyes


----------



## AltinD

Federicoft said:


> One thing is for sure: their urbanization pattern is archaic. High rises, functional separation between zones, motorways between those zones, totally car-oriented system.
> This is how cities were defined in the Athens Charter in 1933. This concept was especially popular in the 1950s and 1960 among urban planners.
> 
> Building cities like that in the 21th century doesn't seem remotely interesting, at least in this part of the world. People here seem more interested in key points of our present and future, things that have a positive impact on our quality of life and even on the survival of mankind in the following centuries: smart growth, energy efficiency, conciliation of man and nature, equity, social and enviromental sustainability. Cities based on the Athens Charter are interestingly among the worst performers in these areas, they perform much worse than Medieval European city centres for instance.


When was the last time your country build a city? 18th century?


----------



## hejiunmasdf79

think it's cultural. 
A Werstern developement in an islamic context just doesn't


----------



## Spookvlieger

AltinD said:


> When was the last time your country build a city? 18th century?


Don't think so 

How long ago do you think Belgium build a new city?
It was in 1972 and it's a whole differend kind of city, and ofcourse a much smaller scale....It has only 12.000 inhabitants. But cars are underground, all shops are supllied underground, everything is walkable. It's build in several layers over a valley. Transportation being the lowest layer. Everywhere around the town there are elevators that bring you below ground to your car, busstop or the trainstation.

It's a bit outdated architecture by now, but the idea was great and it still is...
It's also a shame that recent suburbs around the town have cars on the streets...


----------



## NotTarts

AltinD said:


> When was the last time your country build a city? 18th century?


Canberra in Australia was built in 1915. It was unfortunately built in a period where the car was becoming the dominant form of transport so it has an extensive road network with few pedestrian areas but it's not nearly as bad as Dubai judging from those pics. In this modern age, though, people should know better. Dubai doesn't really have an excuse for this one unfortunately.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^ It has - oil


----------



## Skyprince

I believe every country is a victim of its own geographical and demographical condition.

Europe is a crowded continent, with high population density, with limited oil resources . The result ? Pedestrian-friendly compact cities with high usage of public-transport system.

UAE & Gulf is sparsely populated , has loads of available open land , and produce oil in huge quantity . The result ? The more car-oriented, very widespread & sprawling cities . 
But Dubai has good public transport system - I used Dubai metro and buses quite many times.

Of course, almost everyone will think urbanism style in his/her own country the best :wave:


----------



## Federicoft

AltinD said:


> When was the last time your country build a city? 18th century?


1930s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latina,_Lazio

I don't see how this is relevant, though. It's not like other cities stopped developing in the 18th century.


----------



## Face81

Dubai has evolved over time from a sleepy village to a metropolis of gigantic proportions. No where in the world is like it and no where can be or has been like it.


----------



## Dimethyltryptamine

lawl


----------



## Spookvlieger

Dubai is like hardcore porn :') always over the top. It's great for skyscrapers, nothing more. There I've said it.


----------



## mw123

Look at those photos above, certainly amazing stuff, but nobody is walking and out on the streets - It looks bland and soulless. I compare it to the Pudong area of Shanghai, an amazing place when it comes to skyscrapers and infrastructure like Dubai, however it is completely soulless at street level. Btw, I never said arab cities were all fake and soulless, cities like Cairo have _people_ in them. 

Is there even any footpaths in this photo?


----------



## mw123

Skyprince said:


> UAE & Gulf is sparsely populated , has loads of available open land , and produce oil in huge quantity . The result ? The more car-oriented, very widespread & sprawling cities .


Exactly! Just like the outskirts of most Australian cities - car oriented, widespread and sprawling tend to produce areas that are boring and generally soulless. It makes it even more so when you have huge skyscrapers and 10 lane motorways dividing everything.


----------



## Dallas star

mw123 said:


> Look at those photos above, certainly amazing stuff, but nobody is walking and out on the streets - It looks bland and soulless. I compare it to the Pudong area of Shanghai, an amazing place when it comes to skyscrapers and infrastructure like Dubai, however it is completely soulless at street level. Btw, I never said arab cities were all fake and soulless, cities like Cairo have _people_ in them.
> 
> Is there even any footpaths in this photo?


I think we just need to see what was around before there was oil. That is the true arabian style we are looking for.


----------



## funnyhouse88

because it doesn't has it's own culture...


----------



## Skyprince

mw123 said:


> Look at those photos above, certainly amazing stuff, but nobody is walking and out on the streets - It looks bland and soulless. I compare it to the Pudong area of Shanghai, an amazing place when it comes to skyscrapers and infrastructure like Dubai, however it is completely soulless at street level. Btw, I never said arab cities were all fake and soulless, cities like Cairo have _people_ in them.
> 
> Is there even any footpaths in this photo?


That pic is only the Sheikh Zayed road. Dubai has very huge downtown, and many districts of Dubai are pretty crowded with pedestrians & street activities.


----------



## Xusein

n/m


----------



## AltinD

Federicoft said:


> 1930s
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latina,_Lazio
> 
> I don't see how this is relevant, though. It's not like other cities stopped developing in the 18th century.


It is relevant because people who blindfully talks about the magical world of pedestrian ''friendliness'' put up examples of places that were conceived way before that. The newer areas on those places are as bland and soulless (whatever the frak that ever means) as what they accuse Dubai to be.

Yes, I've been to different places in Europe, and yes they are.

Plus, the ''sustainibility'' part that is also often get mention, is a propaganda concept that is not clear even to proffessionals using it, let alone to chest-thumping (SSC) forum n00bs. 

Waste of resources .... don't tell me you just don't want your own home have cooling in the summer and geatting in the winter,the talk how you're ok with wearing more clothes and putting more blankets is just apologistic BS.

As for the general ''opinion'' on wastfullness of A/C using in a hot desert enviroment, maybe these same people should ask themselves how much it costs the society to heat their homes in the winter and also repair and maintain their own vast road network from the devastating effect of ice, snow and rain.


----------



## AltinD

joshsam said:


> Dubai is like hardcore porn :') always over the top. It's great for skyscrapers, nothing more. There I've said it.


But sex (which porn glorifies), is something you've seen and practiced firsthand (no pun intended) yoursef, while ....

There I've said it. :troll:


----------



## AltinD

In short, there are boring and exciting, empty and full of people street scenes, as in any other place on Earth.

Crowds don't neccessarily bring excitements, and geographic locations, weather conditions, history, demographics and economics decide how inhabitatedplaces on earth would look like. They don't have to look and be the same, it's totally ignorant (to say the least) to pretend so. 

Things not being your cup of tea, is not reason enough to bash and put them down. :cheers:


----------



## travelworld123

Very interesting thread, i love these kind of discussions lol

Anyway, I have never visited Dubai, but from what I've seen and experienced over the past few years of the city whether over the internet, tv, media, general word of mouth and most importantly photos/videos etc... my impression of Dubai is unfortunately a sort of 'artificial' place that yes, seems to lack some sort of soul.

I understand there is old town and historical districts in the city, but from the photos and other pictures, even those areas don't seem that vibrant and it does seem to lack soul. 

Also, the 'main' area of Dubai that is advertised and what most people know (I assume) is the skyscraper rich area, the Burj Khalifa areas, and the marina areas. So these are the main focus areas of the city most people know of as 'Dubai' and hence we mainly think of that while we see 'soulless'.

Also comparing with other Arabian cities, a quick google search pretty much sums it up.

I typed this: 'Cairo street' and came up with these.






















































(source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tchik/1008827011/sizes/z/in/photostream/)

(all above images taken from google images)


and this one especially for Cairo - please watch it, in HD even better, but it's such an awesome video of a tourists point of view of a bus ride in Cairo.





(this guy has many other videos from around the world)



Now compare that with Dubai with a similar google search:





































(all above images from google images)

Now I'm not purposly picking and choosing ones that look as barren and soulless as possible. I'm literally choosing images that are on the first few of google image search.

Anyway, I'm not trying to compare in terms of which city is 'better' and bash Dubai, I'm just clearly trying to point out the level of vibrancy in Dubai is lacking and what a true, 'naturally' growing organic Arab city 'should' look like.


----------



## Federicoft

AltinD said:


> It is relevant because people who blindfully talks about the magical world of pedestrian ''friendliness'' put up examples of places that were conceived way before that. The newer areas on those places are as bland and soulless (whatever the frak that ever means) as what they accuse Dubai to be.
> 
> Yes, I've been to different places in Europe, and yes they are.
> 
> Plus, the ''sustainibility'' part that is also often get mention, is a propaganda concept that is not clear even to proffessionals using it, let alone to chest-thumping (SSC) forum n00bs.
> 
> Waste of resources .... don't tell me you just don't want your own home have cooling in the summer and geatting in the winter,the talk how you're ok with wearing more clothes and putting more blankets is just apologistic BS.
> 
> As for the general ''opinion'' on wastfullness of A/C using in a hot desert enviroment, maybe these same people should ask themselves how much it costs the society to heat their homes in the winter and also repair and maintain their own vast road network from the devastating effect of ice, snow and rain.


Meh. Areas conceived in the 1950s or 1960s are often bland and soulles, that was precisely what I said.
The problem is that Dubai was mostly built in the last 10-20 years or so, and if you look at areas built in the last 10-20 years in other parts of the developed world, you'll surely find plenty of dodgy planned areas, as much as you'll find many developmenets which respect the principles I was talking about. Or are you implying Europe looks like Dubai outside of historic areas? :laugh:

Sustainability and resource efficiency are also well defined concepts, I wonder if you have any clue.


----------



## potasio

the city without a soul is generally because these cities are not cities for family if not for business.


----------



## Skyprince

travelworld123 said:


> Very interesting thread, i love these kind of discussions lol
> 
> Anyway, I have never visited Dubai, but from what I've seen and experienced over the past few years of the city whether over the internet, tv, media, general word of mouth and most importantly photos/videos etc... my impression of Dubai is unfortunately a sort of 'artificial' place that yes, seems to lack some sort of soul.
> 
> I understand there is old town and historical districts in the city, but from the photos and other pictures, even those areas don't seem that vibrant and it does seem to lack soul.


Thanks for your insight and the photos too :cheers: 

I believe there are 2 different scenarios:

*1) For tourism / short-term visit* ( especially if you're a backpacker, myself is *extreme* backpacker  ) - of course I'd prefer to visit places which are exotic, full of traditional charm, as chaotic/full of sound as possible, with greater landscape. Something u cannot find in ur home country. 

*2) For long-term living*- I want to live in places which are orderly, neat, clean, world-class infrastructure, cosmopolitan, having restaurants/cuisines from allover the world. When I was in Sana'a I didn't find ANY restaurants seling pizzas, spaghetti, sushi, Chinese/Korean food, Naan, Tandoori, Fish & Chips etc   I desperately craved for international food   
In Cairo u can find them but choice is very limited, unlike in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha or Muscat which are full of dining options. 

For day-to-day life, *I certainly don't mind at all *whether a place is traditional or new- Brand-new buildings and brand-new neighborhoods are very pleasant to look at IMO, and on daily lives I certainly prefer relatively quiet neighborhoods with less sound & physical pollution and less traffic jam


----------



## AltinD

Federicoft said:


> Sustainability and resource efficiency are also well defined concepts, I wonder if you have any clue.


Yes they are, but it's not how they get used, often even by ''specialists''. More often then not, they're just used as sugar coating to ''win'' arguments. How else would you explain them being used by people living in suburban sprawls with blasting heatting inside their detached homes, with roads and utilities that must be repaired or redone completely after each winter :tongue3:


----------



## Jay

Cairo looks nice, like it has human charm, while Dubai is a bunch of big empty buildings in a desert. Some of them are cool looking, but overall it feels soulless I think


----------



## Skyprince

from tourist's point of view of course the human crowds, very old traditional charm etc are attractive, but for *long-term living *I prefer brand-new developments using brand-new latest design and technology in my day-to day life.

If we despise newer cities, brand-new development etc then we should despise at the use of modern technology i.e. internet, use of automobile, flying by airplane, etc too.


----------



## castermaild55

people imagines easily Dobai as a house built on sand , mirage in the desert or instant city
of course ,Dubai is a *global* city and rich
anyway 
1) more than 80% are foreigner
2)While there is already no oil in Dubai almost and there is oil money now, Dubai have to build the social system and city for which it does not depend on oil. 
３）Curiosity；　modern skyscrapers ｖｓ authentic　architecture 　and life
The situation which cannot be told in society is materialized.
The thing which Dubai is the most dangerous as for that 
4)Danger of a breakdown of a financial state 
５）When growth stops, can it maintain by a foreigner? 
6) as a Japanese , I would like to see the past historic ruins in Egypt ,Syria..
there is few in Dubai...
In Dubai which is only ten percent, nationals cannot depend on the past inheritance like Egypt or Iraq gathering people by tourist attractions. 
A shopping center and a beach resort newly must be built and visitors must be gathered. 
７）However a city may expand, it can imagine that there is likely to be no life rooted in the area. 
８）The businessman who is working by finance is also coming from the all the members foreign country, and they will return to their native country, if work finishes.Since all people that are working in construction or a service industry are also immigrations, they are also living temporarily. 
The cultural measure which judges one city, and the city which cannot be measured by social maturity 

so I think such a city can be told to a negative.....

It does not ripen in culture. 
A local community does not occur. 
It judges critically.
many famous skyscrapers are built by many famous architects
yes it is globalism..
Advertisement of the ＃1 is important　for Dubai 
The Japanese builder has proposed serious construction called eco Tower. 
Both differ in stance clearly. 
Especially I looks out for bubble construction and phenomenon very much.

hope not to be like a Tower of Babel
I think people think of Dubai like this ?and that is why people think it is "Fake " and "Soulless"?


----------



## Metro007

Just to ad a few words about Dubai. I am feeling very incomfortable when a city like this is building huge skylines and artificial islands departing from just nothing (or just because of the oil) in the middle of a desert. For me it looks like being extremely artificial and it seems that's also the way this city looks like for most of the people. Perhaps in 20 years it will be different?


----------



## DiggerD21

Skyprince said:


> but for *long-term living *I prefer brand-new developments using brand-new latest design and technology in my day-to day life.


For long-term living I wouldn't choose a desert city in the first place, but that is just my personal choice. I wonder how many of the expatriates went to Dubai because of it being a city worth living in and how many of them just went there for the money.


----------



## Cloud92

I'd love to visit Cairo one day maybe when the place becomes stable again when ever that will be. 
While other cities around the world try to turn themselves pedestrian friendly Dubai seems to be doing the opposite.


----------



## DiggerD21

To be honest, it is a bit unfair to compare a city with ca. 2 Million inhabitants (Dubai) with a city with ca. 7 Million inhabitants in city proper and 20 Million in its metro area (Cairo).


----------



## AltinD

DiggerD21 said:


> I wonder how many of the expatriates went to Dubai because of it being a city *worth living *in and how many of them just went there *for the money*.


Aren't both financial/monetary concepts?


----------



## Ashok

Here is why I have not been able to appreciate Dubai to its full extend. When I see the projects of Dubai, the intent seems to be to 'show off,' or bring the world's biggest type of building here.

So, often I see Dubai as an insecure city trying to assert itself in the world more then a great city.


----------



## firoz bharmal

Skyprince said:


> In many/most Australian and European cities of almost similar size ( like Brisbane , Perth etc ) the crowds seem to be centred in the very downtown , but other areas of the city are relatively quiet. Dubai is different- the crowd is dispersed/scattered into many different parts of the city area. In Perth we know exactly where the downtown is.. but where is the *"downtown of Dubai "* ? Dubai has many "downtowns" - the Sheikh Zayed Road, Deira, Bur Dubai, the area along the Creek , etc and in every downtown there is sizable crowd.
> 
> The concept/ the way cities are built in Arabian Gulf countries is different from that of Australia/Europe/North America.
> 
> For such a hot city with nonstop daytime sunlight, small population of around 2 million, Dubai feels very bustling with crowds scattered into many different districts, apart from usual spots. Soo many shops and restaurants , even hypermarkets open till late midnight , some even operational 24-hours ! I found the density of shops, restaurants, hypermarkets in Dubai and entire UAE really awesome.
> 
> Dubai feels like a city of 20 million instead of 2 million :cheers:


+1.......:cheers:


----------



## AltinD

Dimethyltryptamine said:


> Looks like a city of 20 million.... it certainly doesn't feel like one.
> 
> Do you use one of these?


Well, obviously you and him haven't visited the same spots


----------



## PadArch

if you think thats what a 20million city feels like... well... this is what REAL busy cities look like:
















some more london


----------



## SoroushPersepolisi

AltinD said:


> The 'western developers and investors' are the minority
> 
> .... you certanly suffer from a inferiority complex (while lack of real knowledge of the place is a given)


you suffer from a disability to read
im not talking about minorty / majority of the western populations in the uae , im talkinh about what they have done

but whatever , you are absolutrly right
it was probably the natives of the uae that developed oil drilling technology

you are right , westerners did nothing, uae is a self developed nation


----------



## Skyprince

I don't mind whoever brings the technology. I celebrate human achievement  Each group of people has something to be proud of , period. 

Dubai is the place where the world gets together. The natural meeting point of East and West. 

Many of the the world's best invention/innovation are displayed, demonstrated and being practically applied in daily lives in Dubai :cheers: This is one major reason why I love Dubai.


----------



## AltinD

SoroushPersepolisi said:


> you suffer from a disability to read
> im not talking about minorty / majority of the western populations in the uae , im talkinh about what they have done
> 
> but whatever , you are absolutrly right
> it was probably the natives of the uae that developed oil drilling technology
> 
> you are right , westerners did nothing, uae is a self developed nation



Since all of that is irrelevant, you definitelly suffer from a inferiority complex for insisting to bring it up. :nuts:



PS: FYI, the first to drill for, and use oil were the Chinese, almost 2 millenia before the others.


----------



## SoroushPersepolisi

AltinD said:


> Since all of that is irrelevant, you definitelly suffer from a inferiority complex for insisting to bring it up. :nuts:
> 
> PS: FYI, the first to drill for, and use oil were the Chinese, almost 2 millenia before the others.


thanks for noticing

and again u missed my point :nuts: 
if u cant handle or understand my comments dont come on such a thread anyway


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^He knows exactly what you mean, he's just playing with you...


----------



## Face81

PadArch said:


> if you think thats what a 20million city feels like... well... this is what REAL busy cities look like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> some more london



^^ You still don't get it, do you??

Dubai's climate is not conducive to walking and outdoor activities. People are lazy and drive EVERYWHERE, hence Dubai's major traffic problems until the Dubai Metro and new 12 lane highways were built. Malls and indoor spaces are where people congregate, not the streets.


----------



## nomarandlee

Face81 said:


> ^^ You still don't get it, do you??
> 
> Dubai's climate is not conducive to walking and outdoor activities. People are lazy and drive EVERYWHERE, hence Dubai's major traffic problems until the Dubai Metro and new 12 lane highways were built. Malls and indoor spaces are where people congregate, not the streets.


I don't think it is he who isn't getting it. You want Dubai to get a mulligan because of climate. We can't just imagine what Dubai would be _IF_ it had a temperate climate. Its not for people to imagine an alternative universe where Dubai has a temperate climate and Dubai builds streets oriented towards the pedestrian. 

The fact is much of Dubais malls and social life was built around malls and autocentric behavior and planning. This isn't conducive to having great bustling pedestrian crowds or aesthetically pleasing streetscapes according to many peoples taste.


----------



## nomarandlee

SoroushPersepolisi said:


> thanks for noticing
> 
> and again u missed my point :nuts:
> if u cant handle or understand my comments dont come on such a thread anyway


Don't you know you have an inferiority complex if you acknowledge the reality and peoples role in events. :lol: 

Never mind the fact you are Persian obviously having self-respect means thinking that Arabs and Emiraties envisioned, engineered, and built Dubai.


----------



## Face81

nomarandlee said:


> This isn't conducive to having great bustling pedestrian crowds or aesthetically pleasing streetscapes according to many peoples taste.


 ^^ or */ western tastes*



Dubai has bustling crowds, but mostly indoors. Nothing wrong with that!


----------



## nomarandlee

Face81 said:


> */ western tastes*
> 
> Dubai has bustling crowds, but mostly indoors. Nothing wrong with that!


Western taste? In terms of what? 

If people want to be indoors there indeed isn't anything wrong with that. That doesn't mean however that such preferences magically make for great bustling streetscapes though in most peoples eyes. There is simply nothing exceptional about such malls almost no matter how comfortable and nicefully furnished they are made. Great streetscapes don't close from 9pm-10am. Even the best malls do.

I may as well sit here and try to convince that Chicago suburbia with its malls and detached homes offers just as much aesthetic appeal to visitors as central London or Milan. Of course that would be just as ridiculous.


> This is what traffic was like before the Dubai Metro - people like to drive and stay indoors in Dubai. It's a way of life.


Awesome. A way of life which is really beside the point. It is a way of life that does have an effect on the built environment from a planning and aesthetic perspective.


----------



## DiggerD21

The pictures on the last pages prove, that Dubai is not "dead". But it is also nothing special in terms of bustle and density. Hamburg and Vienna with about 2 million inhabitants each in the urban area are similar in that regard (incl. busy shopping streets and malls all around the city), just the skyscrapers (OK, Vienna has some) and the extremely hot weather are missing.

I can understand the point with the hot weather tough.


----------



## AltinD

joshsam said:


> ^^He knows exactly what you mean, he's just playing with you...


I am DEFINITELLY not playing. I meant every word of it and I do stand by them .... actually I'm gone repeat them as needed!


----------



## Spookvlieger

I know that you mean what you where saying, but don't act like you couldn't at least follow a bit with what he was saying...
Although he on the other hand seems to be not knowing what you are trying to say.


----------



## AltinD

nomarandlee said:


> Great streetscapes don't close from *9pm-10am*. Even the best malls do.


HUH? Is there a State of Emergency and a declared night curfew where you live? :weird:


----------



## AltinD

joshsam said:


> I know that you mean what you where saying, but don't act like you couldn't at least follow a bit with what he was saying...
> Although he on the other hand seems to be not knowing what you are trying to say.


It's innacurate and totally irrelevant


----------



## Spookvlieger

My friend who went the USA found in USA and I found also UK pubs and such and even parks closing early...I think by law?


----------



## AltinD

And this friend (me), when was living in EU, found out that shops close in 6PM during the week, 3PM on Saturday, and not opening at all on Sundays .... PATHETIC!


----------



## Spookvlieger

True, on normal week days it's mostly between 6 and 7PM that normal shops close. But 3PM on Saturday? That's the most busy shopping day overhere... In Belgium every city can chose a number of Sundays on wich the shops will stay open...In some cities it's most sundays in others only a few. I have no idea how that is regulated.

In christian/jewish countries or countries with christian heritage culture, Sunday= restday. That's truly a part the christian believe....In muslim countries it's a working day. God rested on Sunday when creating the world... It's culture I guess. But the pubs in the Uk are closed by law.


----------



## AltinD

That was very long time ago, and I know it's more relaxed now .... and yes, bar/pubs/clubs timings are regulated by laws. Here (Dubai) are allowed max till 3 AM, except for NYE where they can stay till 4 AM

Here on Fridays shops/restaurants open on 2 PM (except supermarkets)


----------



## Skyprince

Face81 said:


> ^^ You still don't get it, do you??
> 
> Dubai's climate is not conducive to walking and outdoor activities. People are lazy and drive EVERYWHERE, hence Dubai's major traffic problems until the Dubai Metro and new 12 lane highways were built. Malls and indoor spaces are where people congregate, not the streets.


Indeed. Tropical cities like Singapore, KL, Jakarta also tend to be centred around indoor shopping. 

But still outdoor-wise, Dubai is very vibrant with many pedestrians around. Especially in older areas. The South Asians tend to be very active /stay outdoor at night , thus the whole Dubai is alive till late midnight.


----------



## megacity30

A city with "soul" assumes all fundamental human rights are in place.

In Dubai and other cities in the UAE, just being gay (female / male) is a crime, and has led to several years of imprisonment, deportation and even the death penalty. hno:

LGBT human rights are non-existent. Needless to say, we can imagine how open night life can be in such a place. 

Not a good place to live in until more compassionate laws are passed.

Money is secondary to fundamental human rights.

reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates


----------



## Skyprince

^^ It's not a problem at all unless if u exceptionally declare it too much ( which is extremely rare situation ) . Things on paper and the reality on the ground are totally different.

Plus, such restriction doesn't make a city becoming soulless IMO because it is truly living up into its native tradition ( I hope we don't discuss further on LGBT rights here since this is Citytalk & Urban issue  ) .


----------



## nomarandlee

AltinD said:


> HUH? Is there a State of Emergency and a declared night curfew where you live? :weird:


No. Why? 

Are the malls open 24/7 and 365 days per year where you are?


----------



## AltinD

^^ If they close by 9PM it certanly looks like it. :laugh:

Malls works 365 days a year here, open at 10 AM or earlier, and the shops start closing at 10 PM but the malls, depending from the traffic, stay open way after midnight. Hypermarkets, restaurants and coffee shops open till midnight (1 AM on weekends) many shops follow that timing too, and the last show on the cinemas starts at midnight or even 12:30 sometimes.

So yeah, you learn new things everyday :tongue2:


----------



## AltinD

Wait .... did someone just quoted wikipedia? :lol:


----------



## Face81

AltinD said:


> And this friend (me), when was living in EU, found out that shops close in 6PM during the week, 3PM on Saturday, and not opening at all on Sundays .... PATHETIC!





AltinD said:


> HUH? Is there a State of Emergency and a declared night curfew where you live? :weird:


^^ :rofl:




nomarandlee said:


> No. Why?
> 
> Are the malls open 24/7 and 365 days per year where you are?





AltinD said:


> ^^ If they close by 9PM it certanly looks like it. :laugh:
> 
> Malls works 365 days a year here, open at 10 AM or earlier, and the shops start closing at 10 PM but the malls, depending from the traffic, stay open way after midnight. Hypermarkets, restaurants and coffee shops open till midnight (1 AM on weekends) many shops follow that timing too, and the last show on the cinemas starts at midnight or even 12:30 sometimes.
> 
> So yeah, you learn new things everyday :tongue2:


^^ Dubai is open 24/7. Malls are open from 9am to 10pm on weekdays and 10am to 1am at the weekends. Retaurants and cinemas are open till 2am or 3am and there are loads of restaurants (mainly fast food places) and gas stations that are run 24/7. The same applies to the airport. Life in Dubai is different!



AltinD said:


> Wait .... did someone just quoted wikipedia? :lol:


^^ Yes!!! :lol:


----------



## nomarandlee

Face81 said:


> ^^
> ^^ Dubai is open 24/7. Malls are open from 9am to 10pm on weekdays and 10am to 1am at the weekends. Retaurants and cinemas are open till 2am or 3am and there are loads of restaurants (mainly fast food places) and gas stations that are run 24/7. The same applies to the airport. Life in Dubai is different!


You say Dubai is open 24/7 and then preceded to go on with what times places are closed. :lol:

Other then the times of malls on the weekends these times you listed are approximate of many similar times those venues stay open in parts of the US. Even in some suburbia. These are not so extraordinary. 

The point is that streetscapes never (or rarely every close). They don't have opening and closing times. They are very much a part of the public space you traverse to in going from one place to another. Streetscapes constantly make up the atmosphere and presence known to us. 

That is why most people having pleasant streetscapes are of more value then having a super plush mall no matter how shinny, glassy, or clean they are on the inside they can't make up for failed streets.


----------



## AltinD

^^ I bet you any sum of money that there are more people around my neighbourhood after midnight that are in yours.


----------



## Jonesy55

joshsam said:


> My friend who went the USA found in USA and I found also UK pubs and such and even parks closing early...I think by law?


Not sure about parks, you can go to the parks here at 0430 if you really want to, some inner city parks get locked overnight I think.

In terms of pubs many in smaller towns close at 11 or 12, maybe 1am at weekends because there isn't any demand for them to stay open later. In bigger cities though many pubs and bars in central areas will stay open until 2, 3 or 4 and of course nightclubs are open until late too.

Restaurants, again in smaller towns they might not stay open later than 2230 or so though the more fastfood types stay open until later, especially in areas with bars open late. For bigger cities you can push that back an hour or two and a few restaurants stay open until 3-4 in the morning.

Shops tend to open at 9, close at 5-6 in small places, 7-8 in bigger city centres and typical malls with maybe a day a week open later, Saturday is the busiest day for shopping, on Sunday big shops open 10-4 while smaller family shops often close. You will find convenience stores and supermarkets open until 10-11 everywhere with a few open 24/7. 

The bigger malls vary, here's the opening times of a few big ones.

http://www.traffordcentre.co.uk/openingtimes

http://www.bullring.co.uk/about/opening-hours

http://uk.westfield.com/london/centre-information 

Most cinemas start last screenings around midnight, theatre performances, concerts etc tend to end 1030-11.


----------



## diablo234

Face81 said:


> Dubai is open 24/7. Malls are open from 9am to 10pm on weekdays and 10am to 1am at the weekends. Retaurants and cinemas are open till 2am or 3am and there are loads of restaurants (mainly fast food places) and gas stations that are run 24/7. The same applies to the airport. Life in Dubai is different!


I hope you realize you just contradicted yourself with your statement. :doh:



joshsam said:


> My friend who went the USA found in USA and I found also UK pubs and such and even parks closing early...I think by law?


Many cities in the US do have last call hours where bars are not permitted to serve alcohol past a certain time (usually around 2am) so that is probably what you are thinking of. However certain US cities (namely NYC, New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami Beach, and Las Vegas) either don't have a "last call" or have it much later like around 4am.

Anyways outside of bars and nightclubs, plenty of businesses from supermarkets to wal-mart, coffee shops, restaurants, after hours clubs, etc operate either 24/7 or close at around 1-2am or even 3-4am here.


----------



## Federicoft

AltinD said:


> And this friend (me), when was living in EU, found out that shops close in 6PM during the week, 3PM on Saturday, and not opening at all on Sundays .... PATHETIC!


Where in the EU? I guess Northern Europe. There's a wide range of hopping hours across Europe.


----------



## AltinD

^^ I know there is, and I also mentioned in the post that followed that things have become better since then on that same location. As for where, look under 'Location' on the left.


----------



## AltinD

diablo234 said:


> I hope you realize you just contradicted yourself with your statement. :doh:


Yes and no. Half of the supermarkets, most of the petrol stations (that also have convinience stores and food/coffee corners, the Airport etc, are indeed open 24/7. Most of the hotels (and there are tons of them in any corner) would have a 24/7 eatery place too.


----------



## Face81

^^ The meaning of this thread is being skewed. 

I said Dubai is open 24/7, by which I meant the streets, which seems to be what everyone is banging on about. Shops are open way longer than any other city in the world, without exception. 

As for examples in Europe where it's like a ghost town at the weekends, particularly on Sunday are London (Sun evenings are VERY quiet) and Central Paris (where most things are closed on a Sunday) :weird:


----------



## Face81

A walk through one of Dubai's souq's...












And a walk around some of the busy back streets of the souq's around old Deira


----------



## megacity30

AltinD said:


> Wait .... did someone just quoted wikipedia? :lol:


All sources in the wikipedia article are authentic and very informative.

Maybe I shouldn't have to remind you about what happened the first and only time a gay night was held in the UAE. The Diamond Club was closed down indefinitely by Dubai's Crown Prince just because of trying to host the first gay night ever in the UAE. 

British and Canadian travel advisories warn its gay citizens about travelling in the UAE.

Try reading the article's references as well.


----------



## nomarandlee

Skyprince said:


> ^^ It's not a problem at all unless if u exceptionally declare it too much ( which is extremely rare situation ) . Things on paper and the reality on the ground are totally different.
> .


As long as you don't declare your "Muslimness" too much and practice your faith completely in private you will not prosecuted or even jailed for it. Sounds like a great hypothetical place for you to go right am I right? 


AltinD said:


> ^^ I bet you any sum of money that there are more people around my neighborhood after midnight that are in yours.


Er, OK. Probably. And? I don't live in one of the more bustling parts of the Chicago metro. 

I'm not interested in an apartment swap if that is what you were getting at.


----------



## Skyprince

Many in Middle East tend to go very personal in knowing strangers, right on Day one. Thus its quick for people from other cultures to blend in nicely among Arabs and feel very welcomed in places like Dubai.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^It might be considdered rude where I live to ask personal things from day one...


----------



## Jonesy55

That is just cultural difference, here it may be seen as intrusive and rude if strangers start asking uninvited personal questions to newcomers so they will normally respect their privacy until the newcomer makes the indication that they are interested in interacting and starts up a conversation.

Those different norms of interaction don't mean that people don't care about each other and of course people talk to each other all day every day.

I'm sure if you'd have started talking to neighbours, introduced yourselves, explained you were visiting for a month then you would have found many friendly people giving advice on how to have a nice trip, talking about themselves and the area etc.

If you didn't then they will just leave you to get on with it yourself.


----------



## Skyprince

For me, both ways are fine. I didn't mean Northern European way is bad or Middle Eastern way is better. There could be climatical explanation to this- people from hotter climate tend to be more social and more personal. Thus the difference u can see between average Italian from Sicily and average Norwegian from Bergen. 

But to me, the very high/exceptional curiosity and expressiveness of Emiratis and South Asians I met in Dubai toward one another/foreigners like me is really a BIG plus in making the place really full of soul and full of emotion. Many people in Dubai I met ( Emiratis and expats ) are very assertive they love to greet strangers and share their personal stories .


----------



## jpsolarized

Those Gulf cities are so full of new riches with no education and class, and building bigger things just to let the world know how rich they are and how important they feel, that they have gone way beyond tackiness in doing everything.

Dubai is so cheap-looking that seems to have an inferiority complex, and it shows by wanting to have "every single icon" of the world, going as far as builidng its own guggenheim museum, gross.

But one thing is for sure, in time Dubai will acquire prestige with newer generations and more old money (people of course) and will stop looking like Las Vegas aka. attention ***** city.


----------



## DiggerD21

AltinD said:


> And this friend (me), when was living in EU, found out that shops close in 6PM during the week, 3PM on Saturday, and not opening at all on Sundays .... PATHETIC!


Last time I was in Vienna (Dec. 2011) i was indeed shocked about the early closing times. It is not as bad as you mentioned, but still worse than in comparable German cities.

How long shops are (allowed to be) open depends on national or even regional/municipal regulations, not on the EU.
But that is another topic.


----------



## AltinD

jpsolarized said:


> Those Gulf cities are so full of new riches with no education and class, and building bigger things just to let the world know how rich they are and how important they feel, that they have gone way beyond tackiness in doing everything.
> 
> Dubai is so cheap-looking that seems to have an inferiority complex, and it shows by wanting to have "every single icon" of the world, going as far as builidng its own guggenheim museum, gross.
> 
> But one thing is for sure, in time Dubai will acquire prestige with newer generations and more old money (people of course) and will stop looking like Las Vegas aka. attention ***** city.


:doh:




megacity30 said:


> "sex life"? is that what you think about the LGBT community? There's a lot more to it, and it's not possible in the UAE.
> 
> Kindly remove your blinkers.


HUH, are you saying gay people are a different species altogether? :weird:

I'm sorry but if you say the difference between a straight and a gay men/women is not just the sexual preference, then you are opening a whole can of worms.


----------



## DiggerD21

joshsam said:


> In christian/jewish countries or countries with christian heritage culture, Sunday= restday. That's truly a part the christian believe....


Tell that to the faithful, (staunchly) catholic polish people! Most shops are open also on sunday. Big supermarkets and hypermarkets are open on sunday as long as on any other day of the week!


----------



## LtBk

Face81 said:


> ^^ The meaning of this thread is being skewed.
> 
> I said Dubai is open 24/7, by which I meant the streets, which seems to be what everyone is banging on about. Shops are open way longer than any other city in the world, without exception.
> 
> As for examples in Europe where it's like a ghost town at the weekends, particularly on Sunday are London (Sun evenings are VERY quiet) and Central Paris (where most things are closed on a Sunday) :weird:


Sundays tend to be quiet anyways. You can't everybody streets to be crowded every day.


----------



## Jonesy55

DiggerD21 said:


> Tell that to the faithful, (staunchly) catholic polish people! Most shops are open also on sunday. Big supermarkets and hypermarkets are open on sunday as long as on any other day of the week!


It's also so that people running small stores can get a day off each week to spend with their families. I don't think its the best way to do that though. Until the early 90s all shops used to be shut all day on Sundays, I don't think many would want to go back to that now....


----------



## megacity30

AltinD said:


> HUH, are you saying gay people are a different species altogether? :weird:
> I'm sorry but if you say the difference between a straight and a gay men/women is not just the sexual preference, then you are opening a whole can of worms.


Ever heard of gay marriage? It's about living a life of companionship as soulmates with another of the same gender. Sexual preference is just a part of it, albeit significant part of it.


----------



## AltinD

^^ Hm, I thought you were talking about what keeps you from visiting, so tell me again how gay marriage has anything to do with it?


... or the thread subject for that matter.


----------



## megacity30

AltinD said:


> ^^ Hm, I thought you were talking about what keeps you from visiting, so tell me again how gay marriage has anything to do with it?
> 
> 
> ... or the thread subject for that matter.


You may be interested to know I have already visited Dubai (and Abu Dhabi) a few years ago. I am an enthusiastic student of urban demography and I visit urban areas to study urban contiguity and spatial growth trends. Basically, whether an urban area has soul or not, it doesn't matter much for my studies, as long as I return home alive and sound. 
However, when people make something out to be that's definitely not true, as in this case, there is this thing missing in Dubai's soul. It's a fact, and not a subjective opinion.

I introduced LGBT human rights and gay marriage in this thread in an attempt to describe a significant thing missing in the soul of these urban areas.


----------



## AltinD

> people make something out to be that's definitely not true, as in this case


And what would that be?


----------



## megacity30

AltinD said:


> And what would that be?


...that this thing is not missing in its soul.


----------



## AltinD

Piece of advice: Stop worrying, start living ..... adapt, be creative, make the most out of what you have and life becomes suddenly much much better. You also slow down aging and live longer.


----------



## eklips

megacity30 said:


> You may be interested to know I have already visited Dubai (and Abu Dhabi) a few years ago. I am an enthusiastic student of urban demography and I visit urban areas to study urban contiguity and spatial growth trends. Basically, whether an urban area has soul or not, it doesn't matter much for my studies, as long as I return home alive and sound.
> However, when people make something out to be that's definitely not true, as in this case, there is this thing missing in Dubai's soul.* It's a fact, and not a subjective opinion.*
> 
> I introduced LGBT human rights and gay marriage in this thread in an attempt to describe a significant thing missing in the soul of these urban areas.


How can a subjective idea such as a city's "soul" can be considered fact?

And if Dubai is a "heterocentered" society, where gays and lesbians are marginalised, other forms of oppression and domination happen all around the world. Class, race or gender based forms of oppression are common _everywhere_, not just in Dubai or arabic cities. 

Does Paris have a "soul?" In Paris an older algerian man (Ali Ziri) was killed in the cave of a police station for absolutely no reason in 2009 while the responsible policemen of course are still free and have never had to worry about justice.
Oh and do spanish cities have "souls"? Since the spanish government right now is trying to pass a labour reform law which will basically transform workers into even stronger into easily exploitable and throwable labour without compensations?

However only singling out "LGBT" issues, and especially singling them out only when 'others' are concerned (here arabs and muslims, of course) is a form of gay imperialism. Ie using gay and lesbian rights as a pretext to justify racism and ethnocentrism, because this is what it is about in the end let's not kid ourselves.


----------



## megacity30

eklips said:


> *How can a subjective idea such as a city's "soul" can be considered fact?*


In order to minimize subjectivity, I had started off with the definition of "soul" that fit the context of this thread; yes, you're free to contest the definition of "soul" itself, but then provide an alternative definition (with source) so we can all examine it.

Now given the definition of "soul", the fact is what's missing in its "soul" which is a hard fact backed by lots of literature (some of which were referenced earlier). And yes, what's missing in its soul is a vibrant LGBT culture protected from oppression by the laws of the country / city and interwoven into the cities' socio-economic fabric.
Every city has a soul; the question I have raised is what's missing in its soul.




> And if *Dubai is a "heterocentered" society, where gays and lesbians are marginalised, other forms of oppression and domination happen all around the world. Class, race or gender based forms of oppression are common everywhere, not just in Dubai or arabic cities. *


Any form of oppression of human beings is condemnable. We cannot use one successful obstreperous riot to justify another one. We cannot use persecution and subjugation of one form as an excuse for other forms of persecution and subjugation. It is the laws of a country / city that prevent such justifications.



> *Does Paris have a "soul?" In Paris an older algerian man (Ali Ziri) was killed in the cave of a police station for absolutely no reason in 2009 while the responsible policemen of course are still free and have never had to worry about justice.* (Oh and do spanish cities have "souls"? Since the spanish government right now is trying to pass a labour reform law which will basically transform workers into even stronger into easily exploitable and throwable labour without compensations?)


Ali Ziri is the not only case. There are at least five Muslim "visible" ethnic minorities who have died under unconfirmed conditions while in police custody in the past three years in France. No police officer has been charged yet and no conclusive investigation on the condition of their bodies (mental / physical abuse) has been done. 
Amnesty International in France, Algeria, Mali, Morocco, Senegal and Tunisia have signed a joint open letter to the French Minister of Justice asking for human rights complaint investigations into all these cases in November 2011.

An English language reference in this regard is:

http://livewire.amnesty.org/2011/11/30/families-seek-truth-and-justice-over-french-custody-deaths/

Also, laws such as banning the burqa have been seen as violations of fundamental rights: right to freedom of religion and right to freedom of expression. LGBT human rights such as right to adopt and right to marry are still illegal in France and are also human rights violations.

There's no doubt that these incidents / violations cause something to be missing in the soul of Paris too, and I agree with you on this. However, as I said earlier we cannot use persecution and subjugation of one form as an excuse for other forms of persecution and subjugation.




> However only singling out "LGBT" issues, and especially singling them out only when 'others' are concerned (here arabs and muslims, of course) is a form of gay imperialism. Ie using gay and lesbian rights as a pretext to justify racism and ethnocentrism, because this is what it is about in the end let's not kid ourselves.


Yes, let's not kid ourselves. We all know why Arabian cities are being focused on in this thread. It all started with the OP. If the discussion was focused on Paris or Shanghai or Mumbai, it would have discussed the issues in those cities. 
Some of the later pages in the "gay imperialism" publication are corrupted so I was unable to read them, but I did read the initial part. No doubt an interesting read but not factual. It's a delusion to think LGBT rights are racist. Every human being in this world, irrespective of race and ethnic origin, must be allowed fundamental human rights, which include LGBT rights. Those choices belong to the individual.


----------



## Skyprince

very boring.. can we move on ? I already explained that LGBT ( + Asexuals ) are free in Dubai, as long as not preaching or expose it openly in media or high authority . 

Such issue is better clarified by first-hand experience, not based on articles u read. If ur a well-traveled person u should know this well.

And the fact is, this is Culture and religion-bashing, no doubt. You know it for sure, megacity . Such law in UAE is dictated based on religion and local norm. 

My pics taken in downtown Abu Dhabi... Abu Dhabi is far more quiet than Dubai and its malls/crowds tend to be smaller . 






















Beach in Al-Beri ( Abu Dhabi )


----------



## Skyprince

Many houses in Abu Dhabi are built with local design :cheers: ( my pics ) 

I found Emirati traditional architecture very captivating


----------



## Federicoft

eklips said:


> However only singling out "LGBT" issues, and especially singling them out only when 'others' are concerned (here arabs and muslims, of course) is a form of gay imperialism. Ie using gay and lesbian rights as a pretext to justify racism and ethnocentrism, because this is what it is about in the end let's not kid ourselves.


If you think that singling out LGBT rights is a form of gay imperialism we can very well talk about gender equality, or immigrants rights, or labor rights, or freedom of speech, or freedom of religion, or freedom of the press. I'm sure Dubai performs much better than Paris in these respects. :lol:


----------



## AltinD

^^ How about the freedom not to be vandalized, burgled, robed, raped, killed etc? :dunno:


----------



## Federicoft

AltinD said:


> ^^ How about the freedom not to be vandalized, burgled, robed, raped, killed etc? :dunno:


Yes, I think in the domain of the rule of law Dubai performs very well, but that is not what we were talking about.

I'm not bashing Dubai. As long as I'm not involved, everyone is free to live under the norms he chooses. 
I'm answering to someone implying that to say those norms are not the same all over the world is a form of racism and ethnocentrism.


----------



## henrique42

I think arabian gulf cities look fake and soulless.


----------



## AltinD

Federicoft said:


> I'm answering to someone implying that to say those norms are not the same all over the world is a form of racism and ethnocentrism.


He didn't say exactly that


----------



## AltinD

Skyprince said:


> Many houses in Abu Dhabi are built with local design :cheers: ( my pics )
> 
> I found Emirati traditional architecture very captivating


I don't think that's exactly Emirati traditional architecture, this one is more of a (modern) interpretation of it:


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^And I wouldn't mind living in that little oasis to


----------



## AltinD

^^ That pictured is actually one of many villas within a hotel complex (Medinat Jumeirah) so you can. 

... But yeah, I really like those kind of designs too.


----------



## sweet-d

better to have freedom from insanely strict and unfair laws.


----------



## megacity30

Skyprince said:


> very boring.. can we move on ? I already explained that LGBT ( + Asexuals ) are free in Dubai, as long as not preaching or expose it openly in media or high authority .


By a very wide margin, this is not freedom for LGBT individuals and couples. They are in hiding! 
For example, the LGBT community in Canadian cities (including a vibrant LGBT Arab community) are actually free. [/QUOTE]



> Such issue is better clarified by first-hand experience, not based on articles u read. If ur a well-traveled person u should know this well.
> 
> And the fact is, this is Culture and religion-bashing, no doubt. You know it for sure, megacity . Such law in UAE is dictated based on religion and local norm.


Although I have travelled to many places across the world, there are many many more places I haven't yet visited. However, in this case, I know it by first-hand experiences, but can only prove it online by providing links to articles.

This is not a question of culture-bashing, it is a question of basic human rights. If a culture or religion implementation is oppressing basic human rights, it is oppression. We're living in the 21st Century now.


----------



## AltinD

sweet-d said:


> better to have freedom from insanely strict and unfair laws.


Strict: Hm, ok, sometimes ... yeah

Unfair: in case by case basis, but yeah, I'd give you that

Insane: Not really


----------



## nomarandlee

AltinD said:


> He didn't say exactly that


No. He is talking about something even dumber with talk about "gay imperialism" and nonsensical tripe.

If the other forumers criticism was "gay imperialism" then eklipse rants could go no less ridiculous be called leftist or socialist imperialism or anti-Western racism for his predictable critiques. These are the characterizations for the supremely stupid that ekilpse has reduced himself to.

Not that I advocate reducing a places character to a few laws or practices regarding gay rights but to suggest that making any point of them or critiquing them or a host of other regressive laws is somehow tantamount to racism is just cheap rhetoric.


----------



## nomarandlee

Skyprince said:


> Many houses in Abu Dhabi are built with local design :cheers: ( my pics )
> /k612/malaysianboy4/UAE%20Oman%20Trip%202011/100_4905.jpg[/IMG]


Particularly given the amount of money presumably being thrown into those homes they are rather bland and uninspired. Yes America's plethora of McMansions built in the last three decades or so are approximately as bad. I don't see much in these buildings that reference local or Arabian design or motifs either (which is face saving for traditional Arabian design and motifs in this case).

The worst offense though is the walls. Why anyone would want to build a supposedly beautiful home and drape an ugly bland wall around it I have no idea. I could understand in places like South Africa or Brazil a bit where home invasions and burglary are common but in a place such as "law and order" Dubai where people supposedly don't burglarize I just don't understand it. I know the explanation will be that the natives are hypersensitive about a tradition of privacy but that doesn't change the fact


----------



## AltinD

^^ Privacy


----------



## ramendu.ganguly

Skyprince said:


> ^^ No problem, there is always difference on how people from the West and people from the East perceive things


haha, I don't think it's a East-West thing, cities like Dubai look pretty ugly to most Asians like myself too..Cities in South, South-east, and East asia are better any day


----------



## dösanhoro

Skyprince said:


> In many/most Australian and European cities of almost similar size ( like Brisbane , Perth etc ) the crowds seem to be centred in the very downtown , but other areas of the city are relatively quiet. Dubai is different- the crowd is dispersed/scattered into many different parts of the city area. In Perth we know exactly where the downtown is.. but where is the *"downtown of Dubai "* ? Dubai has many "downtowns" - the Sheikh Zayed Road, Deira, Bur Dubai, the area along the Creek , etc and in every downtown there is sizable crowd.
> 
> The concept/ the way cities are built in Arabian Gulf countries is different from that of Australia/Europe/North America.


I associate multiple different centres with most if not every city above a certain size. Dubai having more than 2 mio inhabitants that would be expected.

Also Dubai to my understanding is situated on the sea. That like being in a valley changes the urban landscape. I also think you should be careful with lumping western cities together too much like that. Stereotypically I have associated small downtowns surrounded by large areas of suburbanity as a more North American thing than an european thing. Sprawl of that type is hated on ssc , and it exists in europe too.


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## idnobleg

What are your opinions/views about Masdar city in respect of the quality of features it has.


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## oliver999

arab cities need more trees.


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## isaidso

Skyprince said:


> very boring.. can we move on ? I already explained that LGBT ( + Asexuals ) are free in Dubai, as long as not preaching or expose it openly in media or high authority .


So if 2 men hold hands and/or kiss in public what happens? Doesn't sound free to me. Sounds more like hell on earth.


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## zaphod

I think because these places are so new, they haven't developed layers of differently aged buildings and functions, or cultural traditions that bring out the best of the city. Idiosyncratic but endearing qualities often make a city less "bland".

As they age they will not seem as bland.


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