# Former trunk roads



## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

This thread is dedicated to all these roads, which do not meet their initial purpose anymore. Routes, which some time in the past, worked as trunk roads carrying huge number of vehicles every day and now, in many cases are not even important in regional terms. Do you know such road in your or neighbouring country? If so, do not hesitate to tell us its history or even post its picture. 

One of the best example would be French N1. That road, until construction of nearby motorway A16, worked as main corridor connecting Northern France with Paris, as well as in some parts connecting United Kingdom through Calais with Benelux and Germany. Some time go I had captured some pics of the latter also its Belgian sister N39. By the way, French bit is not numbered N1 anymore, its D601 now.

A map.









And another much pricier map (comes from pmaciej7's archives and hopefully he does not mind I use it here). We can see exact N1 track on it.



> source


Some pictures.






















































Aerial. There is a canal in between carriageways.


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

The entire world is full with roads that used to be main roads and became 2nd class (local-regional) roads after motorways, expressways, city bypasses had been built.


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

That's true, however although I experienced plenty of them, still have not seen many and think it might be a good idea to group and put most interesting examples in one designated section. Such an idea may inspire some to see unknown. 

Cigacice, Poland.

A bridge seen in the background was a most dangerous part of former European route E14. There was large hump on the entrance to the bridge. Many cars lost their suspension there. Since S3 opening and constructing new bridge over Odra river this road lost its importance. 




























Sourced from Panoramio.


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## OulaL (May 2, 2012)

Well, pick any motorway in the world, look at the map and ask yourself: how would you drive from one end of the motorway to the other, if there were no motorway? >90 % of the cases, you'll find the road you were asking.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

I present the Netherlands:


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

OulaL said:


> Well, pick any motorway in the world, look at the map and ask yourself: how would you drive from one end of the motorway to the other, if there were no motorway? >90 % of the cases, you'll find the road you were asking.


Well, would you found this ancient sign or this one if I have not posted those pictures? Would you know about the hump on the bridge I mentioned about? Or do you know which of them lost its importance in favour to another: A30 to A 303 or the other way round. None of them is motorway.

If we think this way it wouldn't be an obvious reason to open threads about border crossings, trucks, fuel prices or roads in Africa. All information and pictures can be found in the internet and countless number of roads can be followed using street view.

I do not know if the thread will last or will die soon, but for now I am going to share my knowledge and experience related to the subject, also ask questions in case I do not know something. Unless moderators will decide to close this section.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Frankly, I'm only interested in the former main roads in Slovenia and to the first city behind the border, but sometimes I'm interested in them in cases where new motorways were built during my lifetime. For example, I was in Split (HR) in 2005 for the first time in my life. I went there on the new A1, but went back to Ljubljana on D8 (map nostalgia ). I have yet to drive there on D1. I'm much less interested in former Italian main roads, because they built their motorways very early (and the Po Valley is flat and boring anyway). I find former main roads through cities more interesting.


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## JB1981 (May 16, 2008)

Breda, Netherlands, in the 70s:










(Former) E37 and E38 used to run straight through the city.

Same location today: http://goo.gl/maps/1329K
And the A58/E312 motorway that "replaced" the old route: http://goo.gl/maps/wZ51Z


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## MattiG (Feb 11, 2011)

*Finland*

Finland introduced the first version of the road classification scheme in 1938. It was a two-level one: The primary main roads carried numbers 1-29, and the secondary ones numbers 51-82. The current scheme contains five levels: Those mentioned (the lower limit of the secondary main roads is nowadays 40), and regional roads (three digits), and two levels of connection roads (four and five digits).

As the network of 1938 was old-fashioned basd of agricultural requirements, the whole network was rebuilt mainly in the years 1946-1970. Thus, it is rather easy a task to say which of the main roads of 1938 are in their initial use: None of them, with a few exceptions of some pre-1938 brigdes still in use.

What happened to the old roads after the new ones were ready: Some of those have survived as part of the lower network, some of them are local roads or streets, or as private roads, and some of those are just abandoned.









_Section of an ancient road dating back to middle-ages in Hattula. Road 3 in 1938-1962. Abandoned in about 1970 when the current road 57 was complete._

I have done some research on what is the current state of the intersections of the old main roads. Samples:









_Helsinki, Pitäjänmäki. The intersection of roads 1,2 and 3 until late 1950's. Nowadays intersection of the regional road 110 and a street._









_Pälkäne, Kyllö: The earlier intersection of the roads 3 and 12. Helsinki to the right (now a private road), and Lahti to the left (now road 13959)._

BTW, the current interchange of the same roads in Nokia looks somewhat different:


















_Hämeenlinna, Kankaantaka. The earlier intersection of roads 3 and 10. Helsinki behind and Turku to the left (currently road 2862)._

There are a few places which have retained their status as the intersection of two main roads, but the number of both of the roads have changed. A few to mention: Padasjoki (earlier 4 and 58, now 24 and 53), Viinijärvi (was 17 and 70, now 9 and 23), and Tampere West (was 3 and 9, now 12 and 65).

Another interesting topic is to follow if downgraded routes have been able to resume their status as a main road. Only two cases show an earlier primary main road returning back after being downgraded: The road 9 Tampere-Turku was dowgraded to 41 after the current alignment was complete. In 1996, the section Tampere-Huittinen received its current status of a primary main road after extending the route 12 to the west coast. The second one is a complex case: The southeast section of the road 18 was dropped because the south part of the road was lost to the Soviet Union. The replacement road from Lappeenranta to Joensuu got the number 6 and the remaining section to the border got the number 490. Later, if was upgraded to 70, and nowadays it is the eastmost section of the road 9.¨

A few of downgraded primary main roads are now secondary main road after their years of lower grade roads, such as Helsinki-Tuusula-Hyvinkää (4-137-45), Kangasala-Orivesi (9-324-58), Lammi-Padasjoki (4-319-53), and Hämeenlinna-Pälkäne (3-305-57).


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## snowdog (Mar 27, 2011)

JB1981 said:


> Breda, Netherlands, in the 70s:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Annoying how they downgrade roads even though there is no point, from the drivers perspective, even if it's not a main road 2x2 is nicer to drive on than a crappy 2x1 road!


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## verreme (May 16, 2012)

Former Spanish N-I motorway through Alcobendas:










It was re-routed in the 90s through a bypass further from Alcobendas and San Sebastián de los Reyes. Some parts are more recognizable, but most of it has been turned to an urban boulevard and through traffic has to turn off the main road to follow former N-I. These is one of the most untouched stretches:










This is former N-III freeway through Arganda del Rey:










And this is former N-IV close to Aranjuez:










Former Spanish trunk roads that lead nowhere (stretches that cross no towns or villages and thus have been replaced by a motorway) are mostly in derelict condition, as no maintenance is performed on them anymore. Some towns have refurbished the roads going through them when these have been bypassed, adding parking spaces, fancy furniture and lower speed limits. It's sad though how badly it has been done in some other places. Check out the approach of old N-IV to Ocaña:










These used to be a freeway in which both carriageways followed separate routes. It was bypassed long ago, so the local council decided to just "throw" a bicycle lane... on both carriageways! So there are now two lanes for cars and *four *for bicycles. The road hasn't even been repaved.

I just wonder how easy it is to have a road suitable for all kinds of traffic (with a separate path for bicycles and pedestrians, like in The Netherlands or Germany) and how many wrong approaches have Spanish traffic authorities done to it. It's just nonsense.


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## OulaL (May 2, 2012)

https://maps.google.fi/?ll=61.451281,21.845713&spn=0.012224,0.042272&t=m&z=15

Here's an old cloverleaf (!) interchange in Pori, Finland, built for the highways 2 and 11. 11 is still there, 2 has been moved by 1 km to west and the old road has been renumbered 2551. Street view can be used. The design is pretty outdated, all ramps have level crossings with bicycle ways...

It's hard to imagine that a cloverleaf has ever been justifiable. Highway 11 was built here in the 1950s, when Pori population was about 50,000 - now it is about 80,000. For comparison's sake, the current interchange between 2 and 11 can be seen on the same map.

Current AADTs: 2 north of 11: 18,000; 2 south of 11: 13,000; 11 east of 2: 5,000. 11 terminates here, to west there's only a minor local road. I've no idea what the AADTs were back then. Considering the changes of population and the amount of cars, they were probably just a fraction of today's.

The highways 2 and 11 connect Pori with Helsinki and Tampere, respectively. Locally, 2 and 2551 both serve the neighbour city Ulvila (population about 13,000).


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## MattiG (Feb 11, 2011)

OulaL said:


> https://maps.google.fi/?ll=61.451281,21.845713&spn=0.012224,0.042272&t=m&z=15
> 
> Here's an old cloverleaf (!) interchange in Pori, Finland, built for the highways 2 and 11. 11 is still there, 2 has been moved by 1 km to west and the old road has been renumbered 2551. Street view can be used. The design is pretty outdated, all ramps have level crossings with bicycle ways...
> 
> It's hard to imagine that a cloverleaf has ever been justifiable. Highway 11 was built here in the 1950s, when Pori population was about 50,000 - now it is about 80,000. For comparison's sake, the current interchange between 2 and 11 can be seen on the same map.


Unfortunately, this is not 100% correct.

That intersection is not the interchange of the road 11 and the former release of the road 2. As you can see on the map from 1962, the current road 2551 does not exist, but the roads 11 (SW-E in the middle) and 2 (at the lower left corner) are at their current position. The current road network is show in dashed blue:










The older route of the road 2 was located more eastward (S-N turning to W), and it was later cut into pieces because of expansion of the industrial area:










The junction in question was not a cloverleaf initially. I do not have a record about its original year of construction. Anyway, in the maps up to 1982, its type is a parclo 2. It will need some research to find out when it was upgraded to its current shape.

Even if the topology of the junction is a cloverleaf, geometrically it is not a cloverleaf but a grade-separated intersection without crossing conflicts for motor verhicles. In practice, it is a junction between a road and a street, without proper acceleration and deceleration lanes, with sharp 90 degree turns, and at-level crossing of bicycles.



















Similar (but usually only partly separated) junctions were built in 1960's and 1970's. In those days, the Finnish Road Admin followed a strict doctrine to forbid making decent ramps to other roads than motorways. There still are fruits from this thinking to enjoy, like this juction of Helsinki Ring 3 and the road 120 (ex-2). The ramps have been somewhat improved, and the fifth ramp (S to E) was built later:


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## Exethalion (Dec 23, 2008)

In a lot of these cases the road authorities are shooting themselves in the foot by downgrading former motorways or dual carriageways. Even if it is barely used any more, to have a high capacity road as an alternative in case its replacement is closed is useful. It is also ready for further infrastructure expansion. All you need to do is lower the speed limit.

It is also sad to see some former A-roads in the UK lose traffic when bypasses are built. An example is the A30 in Cornwall which was over time entirely replaced by a Dual Carriageway. The cafes, petrol stations and shops along the former alignment all closed and the villages lost a lot of business, along with through traffic.


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## albertocsc (Dec 28, 2009)

I can find an example near home, and also and example of the opposite way, a series of local and regional roads becoming an important motorway in Spain.



First is the Puerto Lápice-Daimiel-Ciudad Real road, that was constructed as a main road between XIX-XX centuries, named "Madrid-Ciudad Real", in 1st category of roads.

With Franco, a new classification of roads (colloquially Plan Peña) came into existence. This road kept its 1st category status (from then, carretera Nacional), and was integrated in N-420 from Córdoba to Tarragona. In those years they also built Daimiel-Manzanares road (N-430 Badajoz-Almansa-Valencia), continuing to Ciudad Real with N-420.

In late 1980's, lots of roads were given to new regional goverments, but these roads were kept in national network. The only change here was the creation on N-310, which also shared track with this road.

Since 2002/04, they have been constructing A-43 motorway (the first part built was the one parallelling the said road), that has taken traffic out of N-310/420/430, so this part is now with little traffic, most of it local.

In 2007, the part of N-420 in central La Mancha was given to CLM Regional goverment, renaming it as CM-420, which includes the non-duplicated part of this former trunk road

So this former route is now divided between a locally used (triple-)national road and a medium used regional road. If you want to search in Google Maps, it appears as N-420.



The other one I want to write about is N-310, which has been already introduced. It shares track with Ciudad Real-Daimiel N-420 and Ciudad Real-Daimiel-Manzanares N-430. Signalling starts in Manzanares.

The history of this highway started in the 80's, with the above mentioned road-giving. Government soon though about a new corridor between Extremadura and Andalucía to Valencia, so they recovered some of the local and regional roads (between Manzanares and Villanueva de la Jara) they had given and converted them to N-310. In mid-90's some parts were Vía Rápida (single carriageway expressway).

With time, now all of the original N-310 has been converted to motorway A-43 (Ciudad Real-Atalaya del Cañavate), so this is the story of some local roads which were converted to a west-east main motorway in Spain. I already expanded this information in Spanish Wikipedia, and I'll share the picture here.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-310


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## OulaL (May 2, 2012)

MattiG said:


> Unfortunately, this is not 100% correct.


Ok. Thanks for correction.

Whatever the name for the junction type could be, I still find four two-way ramps in this place kind of exaggerating.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

ChrisZwolle said:


> I present the Netherlands:


I love how some of the users blame the EU for downgrading the roads. Idiots.


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## KiwiGuy (Jul 9, 2009)

Not sure if this counts but there is a part of former State Highway 60 which ran through the village of Mapua west of Nelson which was bypassed a couple of years ago. The stretch through the town is hardly used anymore aside from those that live along it. 

There are also some former state highways which have since had their classification revoked.


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

LtBk said:


> I love how some of the users blame the EU for downgrading the roads. Idiots.


I really like the way Dutch prevent drivers from overtaking on single carriageways. Much of such infrastructure should be implemented in some Eastern Europeans countries.


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

piotr71 said:


> This thread is dedicated to all these roads, which do not meet their initial purpose anymore. Routes, which some time in the past, worked as trunk roads carrying huge number of vehicles every day and now, in many cases are not even important in regional terms. Do you know such road in your or neighbouring country? If so, do not hesitate to tell us its history or even post its picture.
> 
> One of the best example would be French N1. That road, until construction of nearby motorway A16, worked as main corridor connecting Northern France with Paris, as well as in some parts connecting United Kingdom through Calais with Benelux and Germany. Some time go I had captured some pics of the latter also its Belgian sister N39. By the way, French bit is not numbered N1 anymore, its D601 now.
> 
> ...


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

Second link does not show, I am afraid.

As far as I remember they got rid off older A4 there, didn't they?


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

piotr71 said:


> Second link does not show, I am afraid.
> 
> As far as I remember they got rid off older A4 there, didn't they?


The western part of the older A4 serves as the local Bundestrasse to Eisenach. They "only" got rid off the eastern part of the motorway in Hoerselgebirge section.....(so called renaturalisation of the landscape....)


It should be available now. The all savings were not so fast


Now, I could add some pictures (summer 2011) from quite known old Brenner road between Matrei and Sterzing/Vipiteno (national roads No.183 and SS12):

https://picasaweb.google.com/106508...sseNachSterzing?authkey=Gv1sRgCIbDyrvAlKjxogE


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## mediar (Dec 13, 2008)

Trunk road in Bulgaria:
http://goo.gl/maps/m3asw

Build in 1985 and used as a main route till 1999, before the bridges on A2 in the background to be completed.


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

Moravian said:


> The western part of the older A4 serves as the local Bundestrasse to Eisenach. They "only" got rid off the eastern part of the motorway in Hoerselgebirge section.....(so called renaturalisation of the landscape....)
> 
> 
> It should be available now. The all savings were not so fast
> ...


If you want you can paste the pictures directly to the post. They are worth doing so.



> Moravian's pic


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## ElviS77 (Aug 3, 2007)

www.riksvei.no 

is an interesting site (only in Norwegian, unfortunately) dedicated to the old rv 1, i.e. the Oslo-Svinesund road before the introduction of E numbers. With that, the entire road numbering scheme was changed as well.

There are some interesting films on the site, lots of pictures and anecdotes.


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

piotr71 said:


> If you want you can paste the pictures directly to the post. They are worth doing so.


o.k, it is certainly possible:

old Brenner road between Matrei in Tirol and the AT/IT border in Brenner


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

piotr71 said:


> If you want you can paste the pictures directly to the post. They are worth doing so.


....and the Italian section of the old Brenner road (final section of the SS12) between Brenner and Sterzing/Vipiteno:


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

piotr71 said:


> If you want you can paste the pictures directly to the post. They are worth doing so.





Luki_SL said:


> Old road no. 1 between Cieszyn - Bielsko-Biała. The new expressway S1 (E75/E462) you can see on the right side of the picture
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and to be compared the evening pictures from 2006, just before S1 opening....:


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Former trunk road E59 (B303) in Austria - section in Jetzelsdorf behind the CZ border. Nowadays there is new bypass road (future S3/B303) and the old road holds only its local traffic importance...

Pictures from 2006:


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Czech Republic: the old road (former road No.46) between Vyskov and Prostejov (route: Brno-Olomouc). Nowadays it is only a local road coming very parallel with the motorway R46

pictures/2007:
































































https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-TTwT_OCfe6s/UYGPQuPxGzI/AAAAAAAAAaA/0qlIiuZDJfo/s800/IMG_6945.JPG[/IMG

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EAM6jGWHRwQ/UYGPWzfigaI/AAAAAAAAAaI/UTmt8Gt5Kxg/s800/IMG_6952.JPG


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Czech Republic: the old road No.47 in the section Brno - juction Holubice (No.50/E50 route). Nowadays, it is the road No.430.

Pictures/2007:


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Some in my region:

Old N722 Hasselt-Sint-Truiden became grid locked in the 70ties.
They build the N80 Hasselt-Sint-truiden back then wich now forms a parralell 2x2 expressway with speed limit 120km/h 

Old N75 Hasselt-Genk also became gridlocked in the 70ties 
Now most traffic to Genk travels via 2x2 N702 expressway, speed limit 90/120km/h

The old N715 was replaced by the new N74


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Czech Republic: the old road No.47 (Part II) in the section junction Holubice (No.50/E50 route) - Vyskov. Nowadays, it is the regional road No.430.

Pictures/2007:


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

piotr71 said:


> Nice one  I know this road very well and drove there many times until it was declassified. And, as far as I can remember, It was always really busy, even in the communist times when it was part of the European corridor E7.
> 
> The reststation "Gumna" between Cieszyn and Skoczów located between new expressway S1 and the discussed old road No.1. (pictures issued in 2008)


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## albertocsc (Dec 28, 2009)

*N-III in Contreras (replaced by a new N-III and then by A-3)*



Here are some pictures about Spanish N-III (and A-3) in Contreras. My engineering school made a study some years ago about this pass, and I have read and searched about it since I saw it.

I have added all pictures of it I had taken in some years, so it would be better to look at them slowly.

It is situated between provinces of Cuenca and Valencia, divided by Cabriel River (formerly it was Cuenca province in both sides) and more recently by Contreras dam.

First road built, then just called Highway Madrid-Valencia via Las Cabrillas, was designed in this stretch (Cabrillas Pass) by Lucio del Valle (as Puerta del Sol in Madrid or water supply to Madrid too), between 1840 and 1850.
In last times, this N-III has been regionalized, to Valencian Land and Castilla-La Mancha.






























































































































































































































































Here you can see some information that my teacher shows in a blog about former trunk roads and highways (in Spanish): http://carreterashistoricas.blogspot.com.es/2012/02/caminos-ordinarios-segunda-mitad-del.html

And a book by another teacher of mine: http://www.cehopu.cedex.es/es/un_libro.php?ID_pub=108

In 1969, with the construction of Contreras dam, N-III (European E-101 by then) trunk highway then started to use two tunnels and the top of the new dam, leaving such dangerous curves alone. I think that at least the Valencian half of this stretch has been also regionalized.


















































































































































Here you can see information of a blogger devoted to this road, in Spanish too: http://nacional3rutahistorica.blogspot.com.es/2013/03/domingo-en-la-carretera-antigua-n-iii-2.html
http://route-1963.blogspot.com.es/2012/02/antigua-n-iii-una-ruta-historica-asi-va.html


Construction of the stretch of motorway in this area was the subject of long discussions between national Ministry of Public Works and regional government of Castile-La Mancha (sometimes also backed from that of Valencia Land, sometimes not), as the motorway was to cross Cabriel Narrows. Finally, with the change of sign of the national government, the regional government (although of different political sign), got their desires fulfilled.

http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1994/08/31/055.html

http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1994/09/05/058.html

http://elpais.com/diario/1994/09/07/espana/778888823_850215.html
http://elpais.com/diario/1994/12/31/espana/788828416_850215.html

http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1995/10/18/057.html

http://elpais.com/diario/1996/06/13/portada/834616803_850215.html


The A-3 (European E-901) motorway was finally built over the Contreras reservoir, near to both N-IIIs, a more expensive option, but more nature-friendly too, entering in full operation in year 2002. Some years later, the high-speed rail line from Madrid to Valencia was also built over that reservoir. I just think this is a beautiful place to see while driving.




































































































You can also find some abandoned and regionalized stretches of N-III near Alarcón dam in Júcar River, as the construction of the dam (1950-1970) required the construction of a new road south of it. Usable parts of the old stretch became with time CM-2103, CM-2151 and CM-2100, with N-III using from then the top of the new dam, and A-3 passing further south.


This first pic is taken from Castile-La Mancha official road map (2008):


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

new page in 4...


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

...3...


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

...2...


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

...1...


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

...0,5...


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

*Main road Razdrto - Ljubljana (409)*

map:https://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=V...cAA&mra=dpe&mrsp=4&sz=13&via=1,2,3,4&t=m&z=11

crossroad The coast/Vipava valley/Ljubljana

DSC02124 by hofburgh4, on Flickr

once upon a time a terminus of A1 motorway

DSC02125 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

DSC02126 by hofburgh4, on Flickr

Postojna

DSC02128 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

DSC02130 by hofburgh4, on Flickr

Ravbarkomanda


DSC02133 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02134.JPG by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02137.JPG by hofburgh4, on Flickr


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

Planinsko polje


DSC02139 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02140 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

Logatec - Vrhnika


DSC02142 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02143 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02144 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02145 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

Vrhnika - Ljubljana

DSC02146 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02149 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

A1

DSC02150 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02152 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

I remember travelling under U\C motorway viaducts in 2005 (I think) near Postojna.
Since they introduced vignette, those are "current trunk roads".


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

you remember expressway H4 U/C. motorway near Postojna exists from 72' (Postojna-Vrhnika) and '74 (Razdrto-Postojna).  and as you see, there is little transit traffic on that road.  It is also a difficult drive, especially for passangers, compared to motorway.


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

hofburg said:


> you remember expressway H4 U/C. motorway near Postojna exists from 72' (Postojna-Vrhnika) and '74 (Razdrto-Postojna).  and as you see, there is little transit traffic on that road.  It is also a difficult drive, especially for passangers, compared to motorway.


Great pictures and nice summer memories of former 10.yu road for me. It is certainly not any fast route however it could be funny to drive it there. I like the twisting road sections near Vrhnika and Planina..... I would remark also the crossing with the road 102 in Gor.Logatec. I am not sure however there is (empty) building on the road in the forest behind Postojna (in direction Planina). It might have been former Italian border crossing.(??)


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Former trunk road in CZ: Praha - Brno

Road No.12 in Praha


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Former trunk road in CZ: Praha - Brno

Road No.12 in the section Praha - Cesky Brod


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Moravian said:


> Former trunk road in CZ: Praha - Brno
> 
> Road No.12 in the section Cesky Brod - Kolin


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Former trunk road in CZ: Praha - Brno
Road No.38 in Kolin (before opening of the bypass)


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Former trunk road in CZ: Praha - Brno
Road No.38 Kolin - Jihlava


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Former trunk road in CZ: Brno - Praha
Road No.38 Jihlava - Kolin


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Former trunk road in CZ: Brno - Praha
Road No.12 Kolin - Praha


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

Moravian said:


> Great pictures and nice summer memories of former 10.yu road for me. It is certainly not any fast route however it could be funny to drive it there. I like the twisting road sections near Vrhnika and Planina..... I would remark also the crossing with the road 102 in Gor.Logatec. I am not sure however there is (empty) building on the road in the forest behind Postojna (in direction Planina). It might have been former Italian border crossing.(??)


I didn't notice it, maybe I will investigate some other time


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

hofburg said:


> I didn't notice it, maybe I will investigate some other time


You see, based on the Treaty of Rapallo signed in 1920 there was border crossing Caccia (Kačja Vas)-Planina after ww1....


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Road 170, DK parallel road to the E45


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Very nice. Thanks a lot!^^
If I remember well (my trip from Portugal to Montserrat), in summer 2002 this section of the A2 motorway was not completed. There was the last gap between 517.km and 542.km....In the morning, it is very nice mountains countryside when you leave the lowlands round Fraga and Lleida....


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## MattiG (Feb 11, 2011)

*Road 4,Finland*

Finland implemented the first road classification scheme in 1938. In those times, almost the whole trunk road network consisted of windy and narrow rural gravel roads. The whole network was rebuilt between late 1940's and mid 1970's. Since that, the most focus has been in removing bottlenecks and making new routes.

The longest road is the road 4 running from Helsinki in the South to the far North in Utsjoki at the Norwegian border. The current length of the road is about 1300 kilometres. The alignment of the road has changed significantly at the both ends, while the middle 900 kilometres follow rather well the original route.

http://www.mattigronroos.fi/Tiet/Vt4.htm

Last summer, I made a research trip with my wife. The purpose was to find and drive as many road fragments of the original route of 1938 as possible. A number of fragments have disappeared, but an amazingly high number of fragments are still in use as public roads, streets, private roads, and forest roads. Some fragments are nowadays underwater because of hydroelectric power plants.

The trip took five days. It ended at the Russian border, and the final section in Russia is not open to the public. Our car was like a data center (a laptop, two tablets, a video camera, old and new paper and electronic maps, GPS devices, etc). I made an extensive report about the trip. Unfortunately, the text is in Finnish, but the maps, photos and videos talk a lot:

http://www.mattigronroos.fi/Tiet/Petsamo2014


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## volodaaaa (Apr 9, 2013)

Old trunk 2+2 road leading to Hungary in Bratislava. I mean leftovers. 










Location on map:









The solid layer is from 2014, the transparent one from 1974.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi (Jan 8, 2014)

The Belgrade's urban motorway:




Before opening of the so-called bypass this motorway was used by trucks.Now it's not allowed for them to use Gazela bridge,so they can't use this road.


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## bigic (Aug 29, 2014)

Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/16713695
Downtown Bela Palanka, Serbia. The photo is from 2006, but not much has changed. Here used to run the main road from Beograd and Niš towards Sofia, untill the construction of the single carriageway bypass in the 90s. The new A4 motorway is under construction, and when completed, Bela Palanka will have 2 bypasses.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi (Jan 8, 2014)

Once A4 gets completed it's going to have 2 bypasses like Leskovac.Anyway i can only guess how downtown of Bela Palanka looked like .It was probably very bussy road for sure.


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

As the former trunk road we should mention the old gastarbeiter route from Germany via Austria and former Yugoslavia to the Balkan (E5) too. At that time before the beginning of Yugoslavian war in 1991.....This topic was already noted in other section (Historical photos...) however why not to
highlight this route here again.....

More details (in German language etc.):

http://www.dasbiber.at/content/münchen-istanbul-todesstrasse-der-touristen

http://dastandard.at/1355459908504/Blut-und-Blech-auf-der-Gastarbeiterroute?_slide=1

http://www.spiegel.de/einestages/eu...-der-todesstrasse-in-den-urlaub-a-947660.html


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## Kemo (Jan 22, 2012)

https://maps.google.pl/maps?ll=51.6...C0wA9h_oKV4GliB4xt-IQA&cbp=12,237.54,,1,-1.05

Part of former DK8/E67 route in Poland (the busiest road in the country, connecting two biggest agglomerations).
It now looks weird without all the traffic - an empty 2x2 road going through a village


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

I find it silly how you had to drive from the Trieste bypass to Koper until 2008.

http://goo.gl/maps/6QmbH


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

Moravian said:


> As the former trunk road we should mention the old gastarbeiter route from Germany via Austria and former Yugoslavia to the Balkan (E5) too. At that time before the beginning of Yugoslavian war in 1991.....This topic was already noted in other section (Historical photos...) however why not to
> highlight this route here again.....
> 
> More details (in German language etc.):
> ...


It's worth to post some pics from your links.

Road of death.


















Family of foreign workers by E5.









Overloaded immigrants vehicles.









Foreign workers awaiting in the queue on a bordercrossing near Salzburg. Waiting time could take 30 hrs.









Accident on 'Gastarbeiter-route"



















Most dangerous road in Europe (they probably meant Western Europe ) Warning signs in Turkish.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

http://goo.gl/maps/1fbCS

Serbian Orthodox church in Ljubljana on the former main road Villach-Zagreb (until 1988), Maribor-Trieste (until 1983), and Villach-Rijeka (until 1981) (trying to get a few _likes_ from Serbs ).


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

Verso said:


> I find it silly how you had to drive from the Trieste bypass to Koper before 2008.
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/6QmbH


Before 2008 you did this route between A4 and Rabuiese:
https://www.google.it/maps/dir/45.6.../@45.6377898,13.7802232,12z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0
Back then, also the section Padriciano - Cattinara (connection RA13-SS202, with the long Carso tunnel), was missing. This section was planned since the 1980s, but it was long delayed because they found undiscovered caves.
Before Schengen, the whole road between the motorway terminus in Padriciano and the Dragonija border crossing (SLO-HR) was an endles traffic jam during summer weekends, that spanned three different countries. I remember having done Trieste-Novigrad (around 50km) in 2 hours.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi (Jan 8, 2014)

That road E5, was very dangerous and still is ,because there is a missing link in Serbia from Nis to Bulgarian border.Curently new motorway is U/C and it should be completed this year.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi (Jan 8, 2014)

Part of that road in 1987 near Sremska Mitrovica in Serbia,then known as Yugoslavia.
In 1989 i think,A3 was constructed and those crashes were gone.


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Kemo said:


> https://maps.google.pl/maps?ll=51.6...C0wA9h_oKV4GliB4xt-IQA&cbp=12,237.54,,1,-1.05
> 
> Part of former DK8/E67 route in Poland (the busiest road in the country, connecting two biggest agglomerations).
> It now looks weird without all the traffic - an empty 2x2 road going through a village


Yes, it is weird. It is the fate of those former trunk roads. It depends. If a new road is just the bypass of town/village or there are two parallel options. The new motorway and old road for more kilometres. At least some sections of the ex-DK8 (E67) could be the road 98, not only local street. There might be some narrowing adjustment of the old road in villages (with additional parking, more trees, bicycle lines etc.). It depends if there are some restrictions for lorries etc. As S8 is toll-road for them. However the old parallel road keeps usually its important function. For local traffic + backup route for motorway.....as the emergency option to divert the traffic.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

http://goo.gl/maps/uHG54

Guest house "Russian Tsar" from 1821 in Ljubljana on the main road Ljubljana-Maribor (until 1981).


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> That road E5, was very dangerous and still is ,because there is a missing link in Serbia from Nis to Bulgarian border.Curently new motorway is U/C and it should be completed this year.


You are right. What is the current situation regarding ex-E5 in ex-Yugoslavia:

1/Šentilj - Pesnica: new toll-motorway A1.sl, former road No.10.yu, nowadays 437.sl (who is avoiding tolled motorway), parallel with the railway,
2/Pesnica - Maribor: toll-motorways A1 or H2, former road No.10.yu, nowadays only local road to Maribor
3/Maribor - Miklavž - Ptuj: new toll-motorway A4.sl, former road No.3.yu, it way the road No.1.sl
4/Ptuj - border crossing SLO-HR Gruškovlje/Macejl - still missing motorway, nowadays the national road No.9 (11/12.yu)
5/Macelj - Durmanec - Krapina - new toll-motorway A2.hr, former road 11/12.yu, national road (državna cesta) D1
6/Krapina - Zabok - new toll-motorway A2.hr (I do not now if there is parallel former trunk road)
7)Zabok - Zagreb/Zaprešič - new toll-motorway A2.hr, former road 11/12.yu, nowadays D1.hr
8)Zagreb-bypass - part of Autoput Bratstvo i jedinstvo, road No.1.yu, nowadays (no toll) motorway A3
9)Zagreb - Slavonski Brod - border crossing HR-SR Bajakovo/Batrovci - toll-motorway A3, former Autoput Bratstvo i jedinstvo, road No.1.yu
10)Batrovci - Sremska Mitrovica - Beograd - toll-motorway No.1 (E70), former Autoput Bratstvo i jedinstvo, road No.1.yu,
11)Beograd - nowadays is there new southern-bypass road
12)Beograd - Nis - toll-motorway No.1 (E75), former Autoput Bratstvo i jedinstvo, road No.1.yu, without any parallel road.

And there are two options from Nis:
a)via Macedonia - former former Autoput Bratstvo i jedinstvo, road No.1.yu, to border crossing Gevgelija (Bogorojca) to Greece (E75) or
b)to Bulgaria: Nis - Pirot - Dimitrovgrad (E80), former 1h.yu, first new section was the bypass of Nis...It is going to be replaced by motorway too.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi (Jan 8, 2014)

In Serbia we have " A " signs .
A1:Horgos(SRB-HU)-Presevo (SRB-FYROM)
A2:Belgrade-Cacak
A3:Batrovci(CRO-SRB)-Belgrade
A4:Nis-Gradina(SRB-BG)


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

http://goo.gl/maps/VWzCA

My relative lives in that old "Greek" mansion in the centre of Lendava on the old road to Hungary (until 1999).


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> In Serbia we have " A " signs .
> A1:Horgos(SRB-HU)-Presevo (SRB-FYROM)
> A2:Belgrade-Cacak
> A3:Batrovci(CRO-SRB)-Belgrade
> A4:Nis-Gradina(SRB-BG)


Hvala! I was not sure. In Serbia, I noted E-signs and partial old yu numbering, like 22 for route to Horgos. However the number one for the corridor E75 Horgos-Novi Sad-Beograd-Nis-Presevo is fully and nowadays all right. I tried to summarize the current status of the Gastarbeterroute E5 behind Spielfeld because the links had been focused on Austrian section.....


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## Autoputevi kao hobi (Jan 8, 2014)

Some signs still need to be replaced,but everything is doing fine.Anyway A1 section from Nis to FYROM border is getting more and more popular because you have more motorways E75 + E90.A4 (E80) still has a lot of traffic ,but i really hope that number will go down.


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Verso said:


> http://goo.gl/maps/VWzCA
> 
> My relative lives in that old "Greek" mansion in the centre of Lendava on the old road to Hungary (until 1999).


Well, it is still important route for tourist coming for their holiday at Adriatic Sea and who do not want to purchase the label for motorways in Slovenia. We are talking about short section in eastern Slovenia - between Rédics (HU) and Mursko Središče (HR). There is bypass of Lendava - A5+H7. As there is no toll gate - it is free for lorries and coaches however - it is weird cars need the label. At first roundabout behind Hungarian border you have to leave H7 road and use the former trunk road in Prekmurje - via Dolga Vas and Lendava.
In Lendava there were two options: Mursko Središče (and Čakovec) or the local border crossing in Pince and Letenye/Goričan border crossing. However since 1st January 2015 cars need Hungarian motorway label on M70 motorway too. So without label you need to pass spa-town Lendava or keep the E65-route: Szombathely - Zalaegerszeg - Nagykanisza - Letenye/Goričan. Or to use the local road Lenti-Letenye anyway.
The significant advantage is that there are no fix controls in Dolga Vas and no more customs control in Mursko Središče. In the past the double-check was the bottleneck.


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## Kanadzie (Jan 3, 2014)

The old Spiegel article is worth reading, the language is so fun  "brakes are extras!"


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Some signs still need to be replaced,but everything is doing fine.Anyway A1 section from Nis to FYROM border is getting more and more popular because you have more motorways E75 + E90.A4 (E80) still has a lot of traffic ,but i really hope that number will go down.


That the fact. Almost all people who are travelling from Central Europe to Greece choose the option via FYROM nowadays......It is the shortest option. However it was not so in the past. For more reason. Yes, former Titov autoput has been up-grading for regular motorway, no more visas for Macedonia, the motorway in Macedonia is definitely not so bad and so expensive and you see there was bad reputation of Presevo+Bujanovac valley region at the Kosovar border etc.....There is no motorway in Bulgaria (Sofia - Blagoevgrad - Greek border) comparing with Vardar valley. The E80-route (Dimitrovgrad/Kalotina) remains the best option to Istanbul or for holiday makers at Black Sea in Burgas.


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Kanadzie said:


> The old Spiegel article is worth reading, the language is so fun  "brakes are extras!"


Well, I am happy to hear that. The current summer rush hours at motorway border crossing in Horgos is almost no adventure....The fact is that the route (100% motorway) Wien - Budapest - Horgos - Beograd is the up-dated Gastarbeiterroute. Or - at least - one of the option which was originally hidden behind the iron curtain.

Yes, it was the adventure to pass the Alps that time, avalanche of various cars, almost no motorways, no Schengen, lack of infrastructure (motorway rest stations etc.)......


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## Autoputevi kao hobi (Jan 8, 2014)

In the 80's and 70's all gasterbeiters from Turkey and Greece who worker in Germany,Italy,France...
Were going thru today's Slovenia,Croatia and Serbia,because Hungary didn't had proper roads(motorways) as Yugoslavia.
This is on of the routes:https://www.google.rs/maps/dir/46.9918446,15.412478/43.3645925,21.8208387/@45.522412,20.0779974,7z


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Lendava - old road:

from Hungary to Croatia: night drive (to follow all of those GPS suggestions) hno:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4869cjH4r0M

from Croatia to Hungary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMnDp5m3qHE


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> In the 80's and 70's all gasterbeiters from Turkey and Greece who worker in Germany,Italy,France...
> Were going thru today's Slovenia,Croatia and Serbia,because Hungary didn't had proper roads(motorways) as Yugoslavia.
> 
> Yes, and nowadays e-matrica in Hungary is also cheaper than all charges in Slovenia+Croatia.....
> ...


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> This is on of the routes:https://www.google.rs/maps/dir/46.9918446,15.412478/43.3645925,21.8208387/@45.522412,20.0779974,7z


I can't understand why Google Maps suggests those non-sense routes as 2nd option. Graz-Belgrade via Budapest? 200km longer?


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Old road Ljubljana-Koper by Črni Kal (until 2004):

http://goo.gl/maps/BHPAU


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

http://goo.gl/maps/7rJ1h

Old road Slovenska Bistrica-Ptuj (also Ljubljana-Budapest) in Pragersko (until 2004). It's unfortunately situated on a railway station, so when a freight train comes, you can wait up to half an hour (unsurprisingly, Google Street View as well). Also, the road crosses 4 rails.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi (Jan 8, 2014)

italystf said:


> I can't understand why Google Maps suggests those non-sense routes as 2nd option. Graz-Belgrade via Budapest? 200km longer?


Because that's Google.They found 3 digit number motorway in Austria.That road is a single carriageway.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Ljubljana-Maribor:









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/57578527

The motorway was built in 2002, while the 3-lane middle viaduct was built in early 1990s or in 1980s, I'm not sure. In any case, early enough that I don't remember driving on the road on the ground.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi (Jan 8, 2014)

Is that 3-lane middle viaduct in use?


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Of course.

http://goo.gl/maps/O3lMQ


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## Autoputevi kao hobi (Jan 8, 2014)

Was that road supposed to be A1?


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

No, it just eliminated this curve.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

http://goo.gl/maps/gx03C

Old road Ljubljana-Kranj (until 1985). A part of it still has the original concrete pavement from 1938.  This was the first modern road in Yugoslavia. It was financed by Croatia. :troll:


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## Moravian (Oct 4, 2010)

Verso said:


> http://goo.gl/maps/gx03C
> 
> Old road Ljubljana-Kranj (until 1985). A part of it still has the original concrete pavement from 1938.  This was the first modern road in Yugoslavia. It was financed by Croatia. :troll:


Yes, it is the former Yugoslavian road no.1 and the shortest connection between Ljubljana and Kranj. Not bad road and nice countryside. In the past you could avoid the toll gate in Vodice at A2 motorway. So in the past it was the non-toll option if you come to LJ from Krajská Gora, Bled, Jezersko or Ljubelj. With the opportunity to visit historical town Škofja Loka. That time the direct connection between A2 and LJ-bypass H3 was missing, so you had to pass this old Celovska road in LJ anyway. I remember long straight between Kranj and Medvode upon Sava river.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

^^ It's still the main toll-free alternative. The motorway isn't as short as this road because it had to avoid Kranj and Medvode (and it serves the Ljubljana airport). Anyway, when you reach Ljubljana, you might be surprised at pine trees on the left.


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