# Byzantine | Art | Architecture



## Architecture lover

Matka is a canyon located west of central Skopje, Macedonia. Covering roughly 5,000 hectares, Matka is one of the most popular outdoor destinations in Macedonia and is home to several medieval monasteries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matka_Canyon

Matka Canyon by Bojan Rantaša, on Flickr

Matka Canyon by Mark Orfila, on Flickr


Matka Canyon by Krystian, on Flickr

St. Andrew's Monastery

St. Andrew's Monastery - Matka by carlos.tejo, on Flickr

St. Andrew's Monastery by Jaime Pérez, on Flickr

St. Andrew's Monastery, founded 1389 by David Lewis, on Flickr

St. Andrew's by David Lewis, on Flickr


St. Andrew's Monastery by Markus Paco, on Flickr


----------



## Architecture lover

Guys and Girls! Prepare for something truly exceptional, truly magnificent, no words can actually describe the beauty of this as genuine as it can get Byzantine church. By now we had examples from Macedonia, then from Greece and it's time for one marvel from Italy. The whole place, every angle is covered with mosaics, so delicate, so beautiful. On the outside we can see the unobtrusive terracotta, just like I prefer! No place for tacky, or cheap, only highest quality art, it's Italian after all, we all know how dedicate these people are when it comes to art and architecture. It's also one of the most respected remaining pieces of Byzantine art and architecture.
Basilica of San Vitale.


Basilica of San Vitale in Ravenna by Roy Luck, on Flickr

The Basilica of San Vitale (Ravenna, Italy) by John Breit, on Flickr

Basilica of San Vitale, Ravenna by Scott D. Haddow, on Flickr

San Vitale in Ravenna by Lawrence OP, on Flickr

Basilica of San Vitale Mosaic Detail by rgb48, on Flickr

Basilica of San Vitale, Ravenna by Scott D. Haddow, on Flickr

Basilica of San Vitale by Rob Hawke, on Flickr

Ravenna - Basilica of San Vitale by vancouvergirl, on Flickr

2011-09-05 -- Basilica of San Vitale, Ravenna, Italy - 038 by Jim W, on Flickr

Two worlds... by Claudio Cantonetti, on Flickr

Basilica of San Vitale DSC05324.ARW by Chris Belsten, on Flickr

Basilica of San Vitale - Ravenna by Loren Clark, on Flickr


Lamb of God (San Vitale) [CC BY-SA 3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0) or GFDL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html)], by Testus (Own work), from Wikimedia Commons


----------



## ayanamikun

I'll post some examples from my threads, starting from Athens.

Athens' medieval heritage lies in the shadow for her ancient glory and is generally omitted from tourist guides. 
The city's surviving Byzantine architecture is substantial and follows a characteristic style.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bill_i_am/14385391790/sizes/h/









*Hagioi Apostoloi, (Apostle Saints), Ancient Agora-Athens

Area: Athens, Ancient Agora
Type: Cross-in-Square-Tetraconch
Date: 1000 A.D.*











http://www.eie.gr/archaeologia/gr/06_DELTIA/file7.aspx
*Description: *

The church is situated in the Ancient Agora of Athens. It is a cross-in-square church with certain elements that distinguish it from a typical cross-in-square plan. The simple, four-columned, cross-shaped center is covered with a dome. The four cross-arms end in semicircular conches. Between them are interposed four smaller ones, which constitute the corners of the square that inscribes the cross. The unknown architect combined elements of a central plan building, a tetraconch and a cross-in-square one. 


















In fact, the church plan is a unique combination of a circular building and a cross-in-square naos. The monument, in terms of architecture, could be considered as an experimental “application” of the early Christian octagon to the aesthetic vocabulary of the middle Byzantine period. This circular design conveys a strong impression of unity in the interior. In the ordinary cross-in-square Byzantine church this is only restricted to the lower level of the building: the usually low roofs of the corner-base as well as the small dome of the cross-in-square plan break the unity of the interior, destroying the up-lifting effect of the architecture.










The masonry of the church is cloisonné.

The monument is decorated with cufic ornaments and dentil courses. It is dated to the end of the 10th century. The church is not mentioned in any historical medieval sources.











(Part of the interior, photos are actually not allowed and is usually closed too. The corinthian column capitals are probably reused ancient ones from the nearby area)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameliatwu/3898059377/sizes/z/in/set-72157622133910155/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameliatwu/3898838382/sizes/z/in/set-72157622133910155/


----------



## ayanamikun

*HagioiTheodoroi

Area: Klauthmonos Sq., Athens
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: 1049 or 1065 A.D.*
Details: http://www.eie.gr/archaeologia/gr/06_DELTIA/file9.aspx









https://odosell.blogspot.com/2010/08/blog-post_28.html
*Description: *

The church is near Klathmonos Square, in Evripidou and Skuleniou Street, in the center of Athens. It is an eminent Byzantine monument of Greece dated to the middle of the 11th century. 

It is a simple, distyle, cross-in-square church. The historical evidence on the church is a founder’s inscription walled above its entrance in the west. 

The foundation date is mentioned in the inscription, 1049 or 1065 – specialists disagree on the reading of the date. Nikolaos Kalomalos, spatharocandidatus (Byzantine official), is its founder. 
The monument is characterized by heavy proportions and massive three-sided apses. In general, it has ancient features since it was built on an older church, which must have influenced the present one.
Its masonry is cloisonné. The bell-tower is posterior and fragments from the marble screen of the church were incorporated into it. 
The frescoes are much more recent (20th century) and they have been painted by Athanasius Kandris.








https://odosell.blogspot.com/2010/08/blog-post_28.html


----------



## ayanamikun

*Soteira Kottakis

Area: Plaka, Athens
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: beginnings of the 11th century*










*Description: *

The church is situated in Kydathinaion Street in Plaka, between Sotiros and Drakou Street, in the district Alikokko, like Hagia Aikaterini. It is thus named after the Kottakis family, who used to own it. It is a complex, four-columned, cross-in-square church dated to the first half of the 11th century. It has been severely damaged, while no wall paintings from the Byzantine period are preserved.









(This church is hard to find. Along with the Saint Apostles in the Agora, one of the oldest Athenian type churches.)


----------



## ayanamikun

*Ioannis Theologos*

*Area: Athens, Plaka
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: beginning of the 12th century
*










*Description: *

The church is situated in Erechtheos and Erotokritou intersection in Plaka. It is a two-columned, cross-in-square church with an Athenian dome. Fragments of Byzantine wall paintings are preserved in the interior. Stylistically they relate to other wall paintings in various churches of Attica such as the small churches in Pentelis Cave or Hagios Petros in Kalyvia dated to the beginning of the 13th century.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Georgios, Hagios (Omorfoekklissia)

Area: Galatsi, Veikou Avenue, Athens
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: end of the 12th century
*

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5121386069/sizes/l


----------



## ayanamikun

*Kapnikarea

Area: Ermou Street, Athens
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: circa 1050 A.D.*

https://www.flickr.com/photos/twiga_swala/2880222782/sizes/l









*Description: *

The most well known Byzantine church of Athens is situated in Ermou Street and is dated to the 11th century. It is a complex, four-columned, cross-in-square church. 

http://humorinio.blogspot.gr/2011/12/blog-post_06.html

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8032448298/sizes/l









The exonarthex extending all over the western side of the church was added in the third quarter of the 11th century. A chapel has been incorporated in the north of the church. It is dedicated to Hagia Barbara and is dated towards the end of the Turkish domination. The name may derive from the tax kapnikon. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetaipanofhongkong/14012724700/sizes/l










Therefore, it may be related to the founder, á tax collector, the kapnikarius. However, it could be related to the valuable textile, kamouha. The surviving wall paintings are recent; in fact have been painted in the 20th cenury by Fotis Kontoglou and his pupils, a school mainly influenced by Byzantine tradition.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeanpauldrapier/8504029620/sizes/l









PDF about the history and architecture of the building
http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-1361/2006-2007/0350-13610731015G.pdf


----------



## ayanamikun

*Hagioi Pantes,

Area: Tsocha St, Ampelokipoi - Athens
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: Before the 12th century
*










*Description:* 

It is the small, elegant church situated in Tsocha Street in Ampelokipoi, very close to the hospital Hagios Savvas and to Panathinaikos’ field. 
It is a cross-in-square church, which is mentioned as the Monastery of the Confessors in the historical sources - more specifically in Michael Choniates’ epistles. 
Nowadays, it is dedicated to Hagioi Pantes.

(Another typical example of the "Athenian type" dome and masonry.)


----------



## ayanamikun

My personal favorite Byzantine Building in Athens

*Panagia Gorgoepikoos

Area: Mitropoleos Sq, Athens
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: end of the 12th century, possibly around 1182-1204 * 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/24201351363/sizes/l







[/QUOTE]

http://www.eie.gr/archaeologia/gr/06_DELTIA/file11.aspx

*Description: *

The church is also known as Hagios Eleutherios or the Small Metropolis. It is situated next to the southern side of the Cathedral of Athens, in Mitropoleos Square. It is a cross-in-square church. The monument incorporates in a unique way 90 sculptures of different eras in its external walls. 










It resembles an open-air exhibition of sculptures, which are dated to the ancient, roman, early Christian centuries, but also to the middle Byzantine period. M. Chatzidakis associated the church with the bishop of Athens, Michael Choniates. The wall paintings are dated to the 20th century.

(The church is built completely out of ancient pieces of marble, recycled and placed in an orderly fashion. Very characteristic is the reuse of classical, roman and early byzantine decorative sculptures, taken from the ruins nearby)



















https://www.flickr.com/photos/pjhphotos/7700432256/sizes/l


----------



## ayanamikun

*Metamorphosis

Area: Plaka, Athens
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: 11-12th century*










*Description: *

The church, which is dated to the 11-12th century, is situated in the north of the Akropolis, in Klepsydras street. It is named Sotirakis (Metamorphosis Sotiros – Mikros Sotiras – Sotirakis) due to its small dimensions. It is a cross-in-square church with an Athenian dome.

(It is situated directly under the Erechtheion on the road that circumnavigates the acropolis)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/agiontzis/12078883746/sizes/l








https://www.flickr.com/photos/andreakirkby/4771987425/sizes/l


----------



## ayanamikun

*Kaisariani, Monastery,

Area: Hymettus, Attica, Athens
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: 2nd half of the 11th century*

This one is outside the city and doesnt follow the Athenian dome 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetaipanofhongkong/13972663508/sizes/l/









https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3473618245/sizes/l









*The wall paintings date from 1682*

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetaipanofhongkong/13972869067/sizes/l









https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetaipanofhongkong/14136328126/sizes/l


----------



## ayanamikun

*Soteira Lykodemou

Area: Philellinon St. Athens
Type: Octagon
Date: Between 1015-1031 A.D.*










It is the largest surviving building from the Middle Ages in Athens. It does not have the Athenian type dome, but rather a more typical polygonal Byzantine, perhaps due to the larger area it has to cover. 
It suffered some damage from an earthquake in 1701. During the 19th century, apart from the new wall paintings, a new templon was also made. The bell tower was finally added in 1855, copying the style of the building)

*Description: *
http://www.eie.gr/archaeologia/gr/06_DELTIA/file10.aspx

The church is a domed octagon. It is best known as Russian church, since it was bought by the Russian community of Athens in the 19th century. An inscription places it around 1031.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15388566110









It is situated in Filellinon Street. No wall paintings are preserved, while the more recent ones are painted by Loudovikos Thirsios (1847). 
The high bell-tower was added at the time the Russian community obtained it for its religious needs.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Nikolaos, Hagios, (Rangavas)

Area: Plaka, Athens
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: 1st half of the 11th century*

*Description: *

http://www.eie.gr/archaeologia/gr/06_DELTIA/file12.aspx

The church is situated in Stravon Street in Plaka and, as indicated by its name, it must have belonged to the aristocratic Rangava family. It is a simple, four-columned, cross-in-square church dated to the first half of the 11th century. It has been damaged, especially during the 19th century, but it was restored – at least in its largest part – in the end of the 70’s.









https://www.flickr.com/photos/andrew_annemarie/5698424946/sizes/l









Ok enough, tomorrow more from Athens byzantine churches.


----------



## ayanamikun

Oh well, I'm copying my old posts anyway so, 

*Asomatoi Monastery Church, (Petraki)

Area: Kolonaki Sq., Athens 
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: 900 A.D.*











*Description:* 

The church is situated close to the hospital “Evangelismos”. Nowadays, it is surrounded by a Monastery where the offices of the Synod of the Church of Greece are housed. It is one of the oldest surviving churches in Athens dated to the end of the 10th century. It is dedicated to Hagioi Taxiarches. The name Petraki derives from the doctor and philosopher Peter Papastamatis, who renovated it in the 17th century. It is a complex, four-columned, cross-in-square church with many architectural traits that attest its age. The wall paintings are more recent (18th century) and have been attributed to George Markos.









https://www.flickr.com/photos/ioannisdg/13946385574/sizes/l


----------



## ayanamikun

*Hagia Aikaterini

Area: Athens, Plaka
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: 11th century*

*Description: *

The church, which is dated to the second quarter of the 11th century, is one of the oldest churches in Athens (of the same architectural type). It is a complex, four-columned, cross-in-square church with an Athenian dome. Initially it must have been dedicated to Hagios Theodoros, as indicated by the votive inscription preserved in a fragment of a big, cylindrical column supporting the altar.
(In 1908 a series of unfortunate additions were build, an extension around 3 sides of the building and a new cover for the dome.)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/405630443/sizes/l









Nowadays, it has undergone vulgar alterations. It is situated in the district Alikokko in Plaka, close to the monument of Lysikrates. It has been frescoed by G. D. Kaphis or Kaphetzidakis in the end of the 19th century.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dslewis/4188192265/sizes/z/in/photostream/








http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8360944110/in/photolist-dJQ2oN


----------



## ayanamikun

Ok, so Athens doesn't have the most impressive speciments in Greece, but they do have their interest, especially considering their age. Another very old example:

*Pantanassa

Area: Monastiraki, Athens
Type: Basilica
Date: disputed, as early as 600 A.D. possibly 8th – 9th century *










*Description: *

http://www.eie.gr/archaeologia/gr/arxeio_more.aspx?id=261

The church, which is one of the oldest and less known churches in Athens, is dedicated to Panagia Pantanassa. It is celebrated on the 15th of August, the day of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary. It is located in Monastiraki Square, which is named after it.

The church is referred to as Big Monastery in a post Byzantine sigillium of 1678 and it is thus named during these years. Furthermore, in the same document it is mentioned that during the period of the Frankish rule it was annexed as a men’s monastery to Kaisariani Monastery. During the period of the sigillium the monastery functioned as a convent. From 1690 onwards the church became parish, same as the Kaisariani Monastery. From the revolution onwards, the church was no longer called Big Monastery but Mikromonastiro (Small Monastery) or Monastiraki. The monastery cells used to be in the location of today’s Square, while the whole area was full of small shops, many of which can still be found in the neighboring Pandrosos Street.










The church is a barrel-vaulted basilica, namely a church type characteristic of the transition from the early Christian basilica to the cross-in-square church. In general, it signifies the transition from Late Antiquity to the Byzantine and Medieval World.

The wall paintings are more recent.

The church has undergone many modifications. Characteristic is the bell-tower, which is a more recent construction and annex.

According to Orlandos, the church is dated to the 10th century. However, based on its masonry Sotiriou has dated it to the 7th – 8th century, while Wulff to the 8th – 9th century like all the barrel-vaulted basilicas of Athens.

(The bell tower was added in 1911, along with some other additions now removed.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Daphni Monastery

Area: Aigaleo park, Athens
Type: Octagon
Date: 11th century*

Ok, this is the last one from Athens, Daphni Monastery is a Unesco World Heritage Site. 


















Mosaics from the early 12th century survive in good condition, the church is built on top of a temple to Apollo, using columns and materials from it.

The ancient temple was destroyed in 395 AD by the Goths, the monastery was founded soon afterwards.










Gothic portico was added after the sack of the site by the crusaders, who took over the monastery in 1205.

Its restoration is now more or less complete


----------



## ayanamikun

A large concentration of Byzantine architecture is the fort city of Mystras, which is also an UNESCO World Heritage Site. 
The extensive ruins are being restored; they represent the late Byzantine period. 

http://www.exploresparta.gr/tourism/en/mystras-antiquity-byzantium/


----------



## ayanamikun

Before presenting more specific examples, Its important to highlight the very hard work which goes into the restoration of the last vestige of the Byzantine state in Mystras. 




















Reality7 said:


> Before and after:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is another building under construction ‘Laskaris’ house :


----------



## ayanamikun

*Agia Sophia 

Area: Mystras, Sparti
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: 1350
*

Once the Catholic of the Zothochou Christou monastery


----------



## ayanamikun

*Agioi Theodori 

Area: Mystras, Sparti
Type: Octagon
Date: 1296*


----------



## ayanamikun

*Pantanassa

Area: Mystras, Sparti
Type: Three aisled basilica and Cross-in-Square
Date: 1428*

Murals are original, circa 1430


----------



## ayanamikun

*Perivleptos

Area: Mystras, Sparti
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: around 1350*

Its murals are one of the most important remnants of Byzantine art, as not even in Constantinople are there examples of such preserved condition.
Their date is between 1350-1375




















No point posting more photos as there is an interactive 360 interior shot of the murals:










http://www.360cities.net/image/peribleptos-monastery-church-mystras


----------



## Architecture lover

They all look extremely beautiful and genuine. Thank's for contributing in this thread. My personal favorite is Pantanassa, because the dome of the church bell looks very unique, also it has some marble details which we don't see a lot in Byzantine exteriors.


----------



## Architecture lover

As far as Byzantine art here's one example Saint George the Victorious monastery, Rajchica, Macedonia.
The interior is lovely, most of the interiors in the Byzantine churches look like this, or have similarities.


Олтарот на црквата „Св. Ѓорѓи Победоносец“ - Рајчица [CC BY-SA 3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0)], by Stotosenik (Own work), from Wikimedia Commons

In the church there are parts of the remains of the hand of St George. The remains of Saint George from the 4th century are embedded in gold-plated silver in the form of a hand.









Source: http://whereismacedonia.org/where-to-go-in-macedonia/churches-and-monasteries-in-macedonia/718-monastery-st-george-the-victorious-rajcica-debar
Rakata na Sv.Gorgija od Rajcica by Stojče Bogdanovski, on Flickr


----------



## ayanamikun

*St Dimetrius

Area: Mystras, Sparti
Type: Three aisled basilica and Cross-in-Square
Date: 1270*

In this church, the last Byzantine Emperor was crowned, in 1449


----------



## ayanamikun

*Odigitria

Area: Mystras, Sparti
Type: Three aisled basilica and Cross-in-Square
Date: 1322*

Note that the masonry in most of the churches is the typical in Byzantine Greece, with stones encased in bricks
The domes are different of the Athenian Type.
Another important aspect of the monuments of the Fortress City of Mystras is the original surviving murals, meaning pre-1453


----------



## Architecture lover

^^ I absolutely adore the domes, especially the dancy edges. 
It's weird how people doesn't seem to be familiar with this particular style, I've seen revivals in the recent decades, but from most of them I'm not impressed, I always prefer the originals. Maybe if a new Hagia Sophia look-alike church is constructed with the same size and proportions it will get people interested in this particular style. In this thread, so far we have so many genuine examples, we should get our inspiration from them. The outside of such church should be terracotta, the smaller domes should be terracotta too and the biggest central dome should be some sort of metal, for example bronze. Now if we only had the possibility to construct such architectural marvel again.


----------



## ayanamikun

Indeed. Modern examples try to mimic some features, but fail miserably. Thats because the materials themselves are crucial, stone and brick that by itself gives the decorative elements.


----------



## Architecture lover

I agree completely with your attitude. That's why I've been saying for quite some time on the forums that I don't like postmodern architecture, because no matter how hard it tries to mimic historical styles it almost always fails to bring the care for delicate details and materials. Only real expertise and passion for historical styles could bring some architectural revivals. Knowledge is the most important aspect and then the implantation with carefully planed use of materials.


----------



## skymantle

http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/design-delta-architects-pantanassa-monastery-australia










[URL="http://neoskosmos.com/news/en/pantanassa-Australias-first-Byzantine-monastery"]Australia's first Byzantine monastery[/URL]

http://www.pantanassamonastery.org/


----------



## Architecture lover

That's precisely the sort of 'revivals' we discuss with ayanamikun. I mean you can see yourself the obvious differences with the originals that we posted.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Evangelistria

Area: Mystras, Sparti
Type: simple Cross-in-Square
Date: early 1400s*

Ok, so there is a repeating pattern here, but we are almost done with Mystras. 
The small scale of the churches is somewhat characteristic of Byzantine Architecture, or to be more precise its later phase 
Even in cases where there is a large population the demand is covered by building more churches than bigger ones.


----------



## Architecture lover

ayanamikun said:


> Before presenting more specific examples, Its important to highlight the very hard work which goes into the restoration of the last vestige of the Byzantine state in Mystras.


This example is extremely beautiful, the reconstructed parts look very nice. In my country, the most important reconstruction process goes to Ohrid, they try to reconstruct the university around Plaošnik, the church is posted on the first page of this thread. The whole site is 250 meters below Samuil's Fortress. In the future, the whole complex will have konaks as in the time of Saint Clement of Ohrid, together with several surrounding objects.
Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plao%C5%A1nik


----------



## ayanamikun

I'll post some other examples before moving to Thessaloniki

Not sure if it is canonical to consider post 1453 buildings as Byzantine, because the scope of the research widens and blurs significantly. ..

*Kosmosoteira

Area: Feres, Thrace
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: 1151*

Not much of the interior decoration survives though. Similar in style with examples in Constantinople


----------



## skymantle

Architecture lover said:


> That's precisely the sort of 'revivals' we discuss with ayanamikun. I mean you can see yourself the obvious differences with the originals that we posted.


 What do you mean? It's modelled exactly on Byzantine design, a church in Greece and of course there's going to be some difference, I mean the weathering of materials for starters, but it's authentic as far as traditional Byzantine design is concerned, no? It's not 'modernist Byzantine', which I understand can look odd. 

contemporary neo-Byzantine...somewhat odd but interesting nonetheless.


----------



## ayanamikun

The Australian building is certainly far more faithful; the shape of the building is undoubtedly closer to the original.

The problem however is the choice of materials, colors and details. The perfectly cut stone, the strange color of it, the random choice of masonry, the plain and undecorative dome. there is also the problem that the building is made of concrete and just covered in stone tiles, and the overall choice of decoration doesn't hide it.


----------



## TimothyR

Wonderful thread. The Byzantine Empire fascinates me. The architecture is stunning


----------



## skymantle

ayanamikun said:


> The Australian building is certainly far more faithful; the shape of the building is undoubtedly closer to the original.
> 
> The problem however is the choice of materials, colors and details. The perfectly cut stone, the strange color of it, the random choice of masonry, the plain and undecorative dome. there is also the problem that the building is made of concrete and just covered in stone tiles, and the overall choice of decoration doesn't hide it.


 Of course the building will not be identical to a church built over a thousand years ago, but it still follows the strict canons of Byzantine architecture and was in fact co-designed by Greek architects from Greece and it used vernacular materials (as it should) and didn't hold back in expense with generous donations from the Greek community which is very affluent in Australia. Some would argue that it's even better and more attractive than other originals which look somewhat 'primitive', too rustic and haphazard, all a matter of taste really. BTW, the very best of Byzantine architecture is neither in Greece or FYROM but Anatolia and modern-day Turkey. :cheers:


----------



## ayanamikun

skymantle said:


> Of course the building will not be identical to a church built over a thousand years ago, but it still follows the strict canons of Byzantine architecture and was in fact co-designed by Greek architects from Greece and it used vernacular materials (as it should) and didn't hold back in expense with generous donations from the Greek community which is very affluent in Australia. Some would argue that it's even better and more attractive than other originals which look somewhat 'primitive', too rustic and haphazard, all a matter of taste really. BTW, the very best of Byzantine architecture is neither in Greece or FYROM but Anatolia and modern-day Turkey. :cheers:


That is true. Only Thessaloniki has architectural examples that approach a bit that of Asia Minor/Constantinople.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Koimiseos Theotokou

Area: Argolida, Nafplio
Type: Cross-in-Square, octagonal dome
Date: 1200-1250
*
Some remnants of murals from the 1300s

Build using recycled stones from the ancient ruins nearby.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Koimiseos Theotokou* (same as above)

*Area: Argolida, Chonika
Type: complex Cross-in-Square
Date: 12th century 
*

Typical masonry of the hellenic tradition, stones encased in bricks. Note the dome and part of the roof look like repairs of an unknown later period
Marble stones in Byzantine churches is almost certainly reused material from ancient ruins. They even did this with Hagia Sophia in Constantinople.


----------



## ayanamikun

Staying roughly in the region

*Koimiseos Theotokou *(three times the charm)

*Area: Arcadia, Tegea
Type:Cross-in-Square
Date: 11th century (?)*

This was build on top of a temple of Alea Athena. 
The stones come from the ancient theatre of Tegea.
Roof and dome collapsed in an earthquake in 1846, the top half rebuild in neobyzantine style by Ernst Ziller in 1889









several millennia of building phases in one photo.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Metamorphosis Sotira

Area: Messenia
Type: Complex Octagon
Date: late 11th century *

A large church built by Emperor Alexios I Komnenos and used to be a cathedral
Encased masonry, use of marble lower on the walls.
Damaged from an earthquake in 1886, it remained unused ever since. Recently restored, sadly nothing from the interior decoration survives.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Hagia Sofia 

Area: Monemvasia 
Type: Octagon
Date: 1150*

The surviving murals date from late 12th early 13th centuries
The exterior shows the scars of countless repairs and additions over the centuries.
Masonry style is therefore all over the place, the interior has also faded away


----------



## ayanamikun

*Metamorphosis tou Sotiros

Area: Phocis, Amfissa 
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: early 12th century (?)*

Another small gem, encased masonry, Athenian Type dome with reused marble pieces, well preserved and recently restored. No surviving murals.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Panagia Skripous

Area: Orchomenos, Boeotia
Type: Cross-in-Square
Date: 873 AD*

A very old and architecturally significant building, one of the very first examples of the "Cross-in-Square" style of floor plan.

The church is build using materials of the ancient ruins around it, including circular column drums.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Panagia Vlacherna

Area: Vlacherna, Arta
Type: three aisled basilica with domes
Date: last phase in 1250-1260*

Several building phases, a basilica turned into a cross-in-square look alike, note the bizarre roof configuration 
Some walls date as far back as the 800s


----------



## ayanamikun

My search is slowed down by the endless number of small/tiny churches that don't seem interesting to be honest. I am trying to post the most important examples, thats for sure. 
There is also the issue with post byzantine architecture. There is an endless number of churches that follow the architectural tradition but date to the ottoman empire years. Especially the monasteries, that most date after the 15th century. I'm not in favor of posting examples build after the end of the Byzantine state tbh..


----------



## Architecture lover

skymantle said:


> Of course the building will not be identical to a church built over a thousand years ago, but it still follows the strict canons of Byzantine architecture and was in fact co-designed by Greek architects from Greece and it used vernacular materials (as it should) and didn't hold back in expense with generous donations from the Greek community which is very affluent in Australia. Some would argue that it's even better and more attractive than other originals which look somewhat 'primitive', too rustic and haphazard, all a matter of taste really. BTW, the very best of Byzantine architecture is neither in Greece or *FYROM* but Anatolia and modern-day Turkey. :cheers:


I really don't want to turn this thread into one of those infamous threads. Please show some respect and you'll get it back. That's all, because I always say leave the misery to the politicians, people should respect each other as human beings.
As far as the church you posted, I wouldn't say it looks bad, but I can claim with a lot of certainty that it can look much much better. This next example is already posted, it's the church of Saint Panteleimon, in Ohrid. It's foundations are quite genuine and they date back in the centuries, but the structure above is actually completely new (infact early 2000), there is a metal bracing dividing the old with the new structure which can be seen in person, believe it or not it's organizations such as UNESCO that protect this heritage and when they see a reconstruction project they ask for it to be completely faithful to the originals. Enjoy the photos, try to learn to respect others no matter what some say, and of-course learn that it can always look better and more faithful to the originals, you only need good materials which don't seem economically too expensive.

Church in Ohrid by Peter Hahndorf, on Flickr

Lake Ohrid Church by Joseph Ferris III, on Flickr

More photos of the "recently" reconstructed beauty. A lot of other objects around her are being reconstructed.
Here you can even see the original faundations.
plaosnikk by Macedonia Travel, on Flickr

Sv.Kliment - Ohrid,Macedonia by vvv.kos, on Flickr

The ruins around.

IMG_8288 by Pamela Kuo, on Flickr


----------



## Architecture lover

ayanamikun said:


> My search is slowed down by the endless number of small/tiny churches that don't seem interesting to be honest. I am trying to post the most important examples, thats for sure.
> There is also the issue with post byzantine architecture. There is an endless number of churches that follow the architectural tradition but date to the ottoman empire years. Especially the monasteries, that most date after the 15th century. I'm not in favor of posting examples build after the end of the Byzantine state tbh..


You should continue the good work, thanks to you this thread appears much better, I love all the examples that you posted, some of them have the most unique domes I've ever seen! I especially like Hagia Sofia in Monemvasia, the contrast between the blue waters and the orange-brownish terracotta is striking.


----------



## Architecture lover

Here's another one from Ohrid. St. Bogorodica Bolnicka
Macedonia-02756 - St. Bogorodica Bolnicka - Interesting Legend by Dennis Jarvis, on Flickr


----------



## ayanamikun

*Parigoritisa

Area: Arta
Type octagonal (unique)
Date: 1285-1289*

A large church built by Emperor Nikephoros I Komnenos.
A simple in shape but impressive two-story exterior.


























The interior is very bizarre to say the least, and has no other similar example in byzantine architecture.


















The dome is supported by upside down pyramid of protruding columns, (taken from ancient buildings)
which increases the floor area under the dome otherwise occupied by pillars.
If this was planned from the start is unknown. It does look strange and rather uncanny and was never repeated in any other building.
Perhaps they thought the span was too big for a dome and so they tried to decrease it, who knows. 
It is an engineering feat though, whether by calculation or trial and error.
Some wall decoration survives


----------



## Architecture lover

Wow it looks impressive! Imagine how nice it would look if it had some renovations, it looks impressive even without them.


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

> This church & the monastery dedicated to *St. Leontius* is located in the village of *Vodoča* (Vodocha) about five kilometers from the town of *Strumica, Macedonia*, and was built in multiple phases. This monastery is often referred to as the *Vodočki monastery* (Vodochki monastery).
> 
> The origins of the church begin in the 7th century and included marble floors and a marble iconostasis. Unfortunately, the monastery would be demolished in 1018 due to the defeat of King Samuel’s forces near the Strumica river by the army of Byzantine emperor, Basil II.
> 
> Parts of the church were rebuilt in the 11th and 12th centuries with the western narthex built in the 14th century. This monastery once served as a bishop’s basilica and as the main office for the Strumica bishopric.a



source





































On the links you have 360 degree panoramas of the monastery and it's interior

http://www.360macedonia.com/%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B0-%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%80-%D0%A1%D0%B2-%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%98/

http://www.360macedonia.com/%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B0-%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%80-%D0%A1%D0%B2-%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%98-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%80/

the interior

http://www.360macedonia.com/%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B0-%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%80-%D0%A1%D0%B2-%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%98-%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5/


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

> *Saint Nicetas* (Nikita) is an 11th Century monastery & church located on the *Skopska Crna Gora Mountain* about 400 meters from the village of Gornjane, and 17.5 kilometers north of *Skopje* (30 minute drive).
> 
> In the late 12th century and early 13th century during the Serbian-Bulgarian wars, a large number of monasteries, including St. Nicetas were destroyed. In 1282 Serbian King Stefan Milutin took control of northern Macedonia, including the Skopje area and in 1299 King Milutin had the St. Nicetas Monastery restored.
> 
> The church was renovated gain in the early 14th century. Many of the Frescoes date to the 1310s & 1320s and the frescoes of this period were painted by Michael Astrapas and Eutychios (Mikhail and Eutihije).


source & more photos (too big photos, not suitable for this thread)


----------



## ayanamikun

*Panagia Ekatontapiliani complex

Area: Paros Island, Aegean Sea

Type: Crossed Domed Basilica with chapels and baptistery
Date: circa 550 A.D.*

A paleochristian basilica, possibly the most important Byzantine monument on the Aegean islands.
The main church structure was build under Emperor Justinian I, its age and scale suggests direct imperial financial support. 
Build out of stone and marble, using a lot of ancient building materials, especially evident in the impressive interior. This
sets it apart from later styles, under the Makedonon and Komnenon Era. 

Exterior

















Interior. Reused ancient architectural parts everywhere, marble pilasters, columns, reliefs, the architraves too.


































Note the ancient layout of the sanctuary 

















The baptistery









The chapel has ancient Doric columns and architraves


----------



## Architecture lover

The interior is as Byzantine as it can get, I love the grey pillars.


----------



## ayanamikun

I'll continue with the large basilicas of Thessaloniki before going back to the more traditional cross in square examples


----------



## ayanamikun

Thessaloniki was the second city of the Byzantine empire, both in size and importance.

This restoration shows the city in the 5-7th centuries. The style and architecture of the early Byzantine Empire was significantly different than the more familiar later periods, due to the long duration of the realm, that spanned from late antiquity, to late middle ages.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Acheiropoietos 

Area: Makedonomachon square, Thessaloniki 
Type: three-aisled wooden roofed basilica
Date: 450–470 A.D. *

Perhaps the earliest of the city's surviving churches, an monument of UNESCO. It was modified in the 7th and again in the 14th–15th centuries
Fragments of 5th-century mosaics and 13th century frescoes survive, depicting the Forty Martyrs of Sebaste


















The single piece columns are green marble from Thessaly and the central nave pavement is still original from the 5th century, made by Proconnesian marble. The Ionic capitals are of the late antiquity - Constantinopolitan type. The central nave probably had a third level with windows, but subsequent fires reduced the building into what survives today.








[/QUOTE]

http://www.inthessaloniki.com/el/naos-panagias-axeiropoiitou-thessalonikis

The interior walls were covered in frescos, some of which survive and give an idea. 


















Under the northern aisle' floor 3 layers of mosaics exist, from bath buildings of late antiquity


----------



## ayanamikun

*Agios Demetrios, Thessaloniki

Area: Agiou Dimitriou St
Type: five-aisled wooden roofed basilica
Date: 634 A.D. *

The most important church in the city, and among the largest surviving byzantine buildings. Also UNESCO monument.










The few surviving mosaics represent a rare example of art from the Dark Ages in Europe that followed Justinian's death.









An inscription below one of the images glorifies heaven for saving the people of Thessaloniki from a pagan Slavic raid in 612 A.D.
The rest of the wall art was lost when the building functioned as a mosque.
A fire in 1917 gutted it completely. A recurring theme in wooden roofed basilicas. It wasn't reopened until 1949. 

The long repairs however revealed an extensive crypt under the basilica. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/glasseye/4466453293/sizes/l








https://www.flickr.com/photos/ccrrii/3767080920/sizes/l


----------



## ayanamikun

I know the last few basilicas are a departure of the more familiar brick and stone buildings of the later period, but we are almost done with them and will return to our usual cross-in-square churches after this one.
For me, one of the most important buildings of the first half of the Byzantine era

*Hagia Sophia 

Area: Hagias Sophias sq., Thessaloniki 
Type: Domed Basilica
Date: between 620-700 A.D. *



















UNESCO world heritage site, with very well preserved mosaics that cover various periods. The mosaic of virgin Mary dates from 787-797 A.D, on the dome from late 9th century with an inscription of a bishop dating 880-885 A.D., the murals from 1037 A.D. etc.

It shares a lot of similarities with the Hagia Irene in Constantinople, but in this case the interior survives.


----------



## Architecture lover

ayanamikun said:


> I know the last few basilicas are a departure of the more familiar brick and stone buildings of the later period, but we are almost done with them and will return to our usual cross-in-square churches after this one.
> *For me, one of the most important buildings of the first half of the Byzantine era*
> 
> *Hagia Sophia
> 
> Area: Hagias Sophias sq., Thessaloniki
> Type: Domed Basilica
> Date: between 620-700 A.D. *
> 
> UNESCO world heritage site, with very well preserved mosaics that cover various periods. The mosaic of virgin Mary dates from 787-797 A.D, on the dome from late 9th century with an inscription of a bishop dating 880-885 A.D., the murals from 1037 A.D. etc.
> 
> It shares a lot of similarities with the Hagia Irene in Constantinople, but in this case the interior survives.


Sure it is a very important looking building. The exterior is stunning, but the interior is truly divine, I just love the shades of green stone that the pillars have, the walls are quite amazing too, it floats perfectly between the esoteric and the mystic, that's quite an ambient, keep up the good job.


----------



## Architecture lover

This one was already shared, but I love this photo so much. The contrast between the nature and the landmark looks amazing.

Church of St. John at Kaneo, Ohrid by Sven Landmeter, on Flickr


----------



## JMGA196

Beautiful, it's a shame how byzantine architecture is usually ignored instead of being compared with that of western Europe. Maybe because the only trully monumental buildings were located in Constantinople and only small shrines survive in eastern Europe, Greece and the rest of Turkey.


----------



## Emma Goldman-Sachs

JMGA196 said:


> Beautiful, it's a shame how byzantine architecture is usually ignored instead of being compared with that of western Europe. Maybe because the only trully monumental buildings were located in Constantinople and only small shrines survive in eastern Europe, Greece and the rest of Turkey.


This is a usual misconception and not thoroughly true. Byzantine church architecture is in its core more humane and down to earth in contrast with the western one. Apart from the well known example of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople the typical byzantine church is not a monumental basilica but rather a place of worship of human proportions that aims to bring the congregation together and impose the mysticality that characterizes the eastern orthodox tradition.


----------



## shijja

Amazing thread, keep up the good work !
I don't know that in those terracota coloured brick building, there are(and were) beautiful mosaics. It looks like they keep the grandeur of the building in inside.
And about the smaller church and monastery, did they still used ?


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

^^

Yes, the smaller churches are still in use, at least in Macedonia.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Panagia Chalkeon

Area: Dikastirion Square, Thessaloniki 
Type: cross-in-square
Date: 1028*

UNESCO World Heritage Site
Also called "Red Church", as it is made out of bricks. Only fragments of murals survive, circa 11th-14th century.


----------



## JMGA196

Emma Goldman-Sachs said:


> This is a usual misconception and not thoroughly true. Byzantine church architecture is in its core more humane and down to earth in contrast with the western one. Apart from the well known example of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople the typical byzantine church is not a monumental basilica but rather a place of worship of human proportions that aims to bring the congregation together and impose the mysticality that characterizes the eastern orthodox tradition.


Exactly, but I was referring about how since there are very few monumental byzantine constructions, they are usually ignored. When you compare it with Western Roman, Romanesque, Gothic architecture and other styles of the time, you can see most of these styles have hundreds of monumental buildings known all around the world. I really like Byzantine architecture though.

Any buildings survive that are not necessarily religious?


----------



## ayanamikun

JMGA196 said:


> Any buildings survive that are not necessarily religious?


Hmm there are some examples. Several city walls and forts of course. The Keep in Mystras. 
Of course life and state orbited around the church in those times. 
As we are in Thessaloniki, here is the Byzantine Bath in the Upper Old Town.

Late 12th/early 13th century. Follows the Roman example with the different temperature rooms. It was recently restored.


----------



## JMGA196

By the way, we should really start to talk about the amazing Basilica di San Marco, in Venice. Completed in 1092. You can see the mix between Byzantine architecture and the Gothic influence of the time in that part of Europe. Take into consideration that the facade was altered in the 13th Century.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Saint Catherine

Area: Old district, Thessaloniki 
Type: cross-in-square
Date: unknown, before 1315*

UNESCO World Heritage Site, the fragments from the murals date in 1315, but the date of the construction is unknown.


----------



## Emma Goldman-Sachs

Probably a typo, but the church right above is the one of Saint Catherine in Thessaloniki, a perfect example of late byzantine palaeologian architecture.

As for non religious buildings there are also the basilica cistern, the palace of Porphyrogenitus, which underwent an unfortunate "restoration", the anastasian and theodosian walls all in today Istanbul. Is there any member from turkey intrested in posting these?


----------



## ayanamikun

Yes yes, of course.


----------



## Architecture lover

The last church of Saint Catherine, has to be one of the finest examples of remaining Byzantine architecture, i love the domes and the arches around the windows.


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

Monastery Holy Mother of God near the village of Matejche, Macedonia (XI century)



> The monastery was built in the 14th century on the ruins of an older, Byzantine Greek church built in 1057–59, evident in preserved Greek inscriptions.[1][2] It was mentioned for the first time in 1300 in a chrysobull of Serbian king Stefan Milutin (r. 1282–1321). In the mid-14th century, Serbian emperor Stefan Dušan (r. 1331–55) started reconstructing the monastery, finished by his son Stefan Uroš V in 1357 (becoming his endowment). Coins of Uros V has been found at the site.[3] Isaiah the Serb and Vladislav Gramatik lived in the monastery. In the 18th century the roof was removed by the Ottomans and put on the Eski Mosque in Kumanovo, after which it deteriorated. In 1926–34 the monastery was renovated.
> 
> It is designed in the cross-in-square plan (as is also Marko's Monastery and the Banja Monastery).[4] The dome bears the same exonarthex technique as Hilandar.[5] It was painted in 1356–57.


more info


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

And one small church from the city of Prilep, Macedonia - St. Nickolas (XIII century)



> The church is situated in the village of Varosh in the vicinity of the city of Prilep. It is one-nave building with extremely defined vertical, with richly decorated facades of brickwork. According to the inscription in the naos, the building and the wall paintings were finished in 1298 by the donation of the local nobleman named Vekos and his wife Maria. The wall paintings from the period of the erection of the church are preserved in the naos (full-length figures, scenes from Passions and Great Feasts). During the 1380s the west part of the interior was painted by the assistants of the painter – Metropolitan Jovan.


source & more info


----------



## ayanamikun

*Prophet Elijah 

Area: Prophet Elijah street, Thessaloniki 
Type: cross-in-square, Athonite type
Date: unknown, around 1300s (?)*

UNESCO world heritage site.
Unknown date of construction, certainly in the Palaiologan period
Few murals survive, in the narthex mostly.
The dome is leaning to the east, I see no reference to it, but as the interior is restored and shows no deformation, so this might have happened during construction.


----------



## Architecture lover

So far that has to be the most beautiful building we have in this thread, I really really like the triangular details around the edges of the window's arches, also the "columns" around the windows, in a way, resemble some Corinthian aspects if you pay attention more closely. Stunning. The front part is looking great with the smaller domes.


----------



## ayanamikun

Indeed, you know your "bricks" as they say. Hadn't noticed that. it is similar to other examples as like on Saint Catherine now that I look back.


----------



## Architecture lover

This summer I've noticed for the first time that they resemble Corinthian columns when I visited the Monastery of Saint Naum, in Ohrid, in person it's much easier to notice such delicate details.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Saint Panteleimon

Area: Iasonidou and Arrianou streets, Thessaloniki 
Type: tetrastyle cross-in-square
Date: 1295*

Its original dedication is disputed. Only fragments of murals survive.


----------



## ayanamikun

Some smaller examples

The tiny church of the Saviour, Thessaloniki. 
Of a rare square type, with preserved murals. Circa 1300s 



























*
Saint Nicholas Orphanos

Area: Irodotou and Apostolou Pavlou streets, Thessaloniki 
Type: Single, later 3 aisled edifice
Date: 1310–1320*

Surviving murals in good condition, from the time of construction


----------



## ayanamikun

*Vlatades Monastery

Area: Upper city, Thessaloniki 
Type: ? Domed square? 
Date: 11th century (?) (the church)*

We are almost done from Thessaloniki.










The obvious additions are from later eras (17th 18th centuries ? )
The monastery continued to operate throughout the ottoman empire era, this Italian influenced portico was a bizarre choice.


----------



## ayanamikun

Although not very sure its admission in this thread, the Rotunda in Thessaloniki is considered part of its byzantine past. Also it is one of the most important buildings in the history of architecture and technically relevant to this thread

*Rotunda, Church of Agios Georgios

Area: city center, Thessaloniki 
Type: domed circular 
Date: 306 A.D.*

UNESCO world heritage site 

Built by Roman Emperor Galerius in similar fashion to the Pantheon in Rome, in this case using bricks instead of concrete. 

For what it was originally intended for is unknown, but Galerius died in 311 A.D. before it was finished. Perhaps a mausoleum, or a temple of Zeus, none knows, but it remained half finished after the emperor died for some years. When Emperor Constantine I moved the capital to Constantinople and made Christianity the official religion, he ordered it finished as the Church of the Archangels, finally being completed in the year 326 A.D. The diameter of the dome is 24,50 meters, and its height 30 meters. It was covered in mosaics, fragments of which survive. 

The Rotunda is therefore a serious contender for the title of the oldest church building in the world, although today it is owned by the Ephorate of Byzantine Antiquities and not the Church. 


































General view today









As it was built. Today the central part survives and the protruding sanctuary. 
The dome suffered damage during the centuries and was encased in further brickwork, possibly to counter the outward pushing forces that no longer vented to the outer aisle, that was removed either from damage or intend.


----------



## ayanamikun

Interior

The original design called for an oculus in the dome and the interior covered in marble
It was finished as a church, with a enclosed dome and covered in gold mosaics. 
These date from the time it was built. 

Note the walls that are 6.3 meters thick, that give the building tremendous mass inertia and torque, that helped it withstand 1.710 years of earthquakes


----------



## Architecture lover

What I always liked about the Rotunda was/is the side arches which appear to be both structural (they probably give support) and decorative.



ayanamikun said:


> Although not very sure its admission in this thread, the Rotunda in Thessaloniki is considered part of its byzantine past. Also it is one of the most important buildings in the history of architecture and technically relevant to this thread
> 
> *Rotunda, Church of Agios Georgios
> 
> Area: city center, Thessaloniki
> Type: domed circular
> Date: 306 A.D.*
> 
> UNESCO world heritage site
> 
> Built by Roman Emperor Galerius in similar fashion to the Pantheon in Rome, in this case using bricks instead of concrete.
> 
> For what it was originally intended for is unknown, but Galerius died in 311 A.D. before it was finished. Perhaps a mausoleum, or a temple of Zeus, none knows, but it remained half finished after the emperor died for some years. When Emperor Constantine I moved the capital to Constantinople and made Christianity the official religion, he ordered it finished as the Church of the Archangels, finally being completed in the year 326 A.D. The diameter of the dome is 24,50 meters, and its height 30 meters. It was covered in mosaics, fragments of which survive.
> 
> The Rotunda is therefore a serious contender for the title of the oldest church building in the world, although today it is owned by the Ephorate of Byzantine Antiquities and not the Church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As it was built. Today the central part survives and the protruding sanctuary.
> The dome suffered damage during the centuries and was encased in further brickwork, possibly to counter the outward pushing forces that no longer vented to the outer aisle, that was removed either from damage or intend.


----------



## ayanamikun

I don't think that Rotunda's exterior has anything that resembles decoration to begin with. Not today at least.


----------



## Architecture lover

Oh come on, it looks great, the arches appear simple, yet decorative. If I'm not wrong Hosios Loukas also has such supportive arches? They look simple, structural, yet decorative, isn't that why we love Byzantine architecture, like it was said it might not be as wealthy as other types of churches, styles but it certainly has its charms.


----------



## Architecture lover

Prilep, church of St. Transfiguration. It is not Byzantine (built in 1871), but it takes some inspiration and the clock tower also seems to take some inspiration.

Prilep by Natalie, on Flickr

Prilep by Natalie, on Flickr


----------



## ayanamikun

*Porta Panagia

Area: Pyli, Arta 
Type: three aisled cross-roofed basilica with cross-in-square domed narthex 
Date: 1283*

This is rare compilation of two/three types into one that is very rare, in fact unique, I don't know of another example like that. 
The oldest part, the basilica, is from 1283, while the rest was added in 1300s


----------



## ayanamikun

*Iasonos Sosipatrou 

Area: Anemomylos, Corfu
Type: two-columned cross-in-square
Date: around 1000 A.D.*


----------



## ayanamikun

*Agios Athanasios Pantanassas

Area: Monemvasia, Peloponnese 
Type: 5 domed octagonal
Date: 12th century*


----------



## ayanamikun

Too many examples, every time I search one, two more come up near by, Greece is literally covered by these small churches and I am getting a bit fatigued with this routine. 
This thread is turning into a list. In any case, you got the idea, and the general architectural culture of these structures.
Stone and brick masonry, in latter ages irregular, ceramic roofs with small diameter domes. Small windows, and few surviving decorations due to the nature of Byzantine murals.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Panagia Krinas

Area: Vavilon area, Chios
Type: octagonal
Date: 1197 A.D.*

This one is off the trail, recently restored but hard to find. Very good example of masonry. 
Note that many of these byzantine churches in Greece are closed and you cannot enter them.
Usually they held mass once a year if at all, or they get rented for weddings or sth.


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

It would be nice if we could see some examples from the other neighboring countries like Serbia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Albania (?) - I believe there are some very interesting churches and other buildings from the Byzantine era.


----------



## ayanamikun

Indeed. Although I still have a large list of churches that I will try to post. There is also the issue with the many monasteries, of which usually only their main church dates to the byzantine era, a byproduct of the "monasterization" of the ottoman era.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Agios Nikolaos

Area: Kyriakoselia, Chania
Type: cross-in-square
Date: 11th century*


----------



## ayanamikun

*kokini ekklisia

Area: Vourgareli, Arta
Type: cross-in-square without dome
Date: 1281*


----------



## ayanamikun

*Panagia Mprioni

Area: Neochoraki, Arta
Type: cross-in-square 
Date: 1238
*


----------



## ayanamikun

*Agios Dimitrios Katsouri

Area: Plisious, Arta
Type: cross-in-square 
Date: late 9th century*

This is the oldest example from Arta


----------



## ayanamikun

*Agios Vasilios

Area: Arta
Type: single aisled basilica 
Date: 13th century*


----------



## ayanamikun

*Agios Dimitrios monastery

Area: Preveza
Type: three aisled cross-roofed basilica 
Date: 1242*


----------



## ayanamikun

*Agioi Apostoli 

Area: Leontari, Arcadia
Type: three aisled basilica cross-in-square second level 
Date: late 1300*

Similar to the Mystras types


----------



## ayanamikun

*Zoodochou Pigis

Area: Kalogerorachi, Messinia
Type: cross-in-square
Date: 12th century*


----------



## Architecture lover

Have you ever considered sharing the examples from Metéora? They look truly iconic, especially surrounded with such landscape!


----------



## ayanamikun

Indeed, although the problem with monasteries is that most of them date after the end of the Byzantine era.
Oh well, perhaps this doesn't matter though


----------



## Architecture lover

I didn't know that they were built after the Byzantine era, oh well they still have the recognizable style so I still think they are worth of sharing.


----------



## ayanamikun

Most orthodox monasteries in general date from the 16th-17th centuries due to the dissolution of the state and the special decrees with the ottomans that made their formation the only alternative for christianity. There was far less point to monasteries when the state and the church was one and the same. Of course many church buildings in them are far older.


----------



## JMGA196

Byzantine architecture is so simple yet so impressive, I think this is a way to show good architecture doesn't necessarily has to be ornamented without falling into many examples of the modernist and minimalist crap.


----------



## skymantle

^^ Byzantine architecture may be simple on the outside but usually much more elaborate than other houses of worship on the inside. 

Cross-in-square design or cross of equal arms length is also often referred to as the Greek-cross style as depicted on the Greek flag. 




ayanamikun said:


> *Most orthodox monasteries in general date from the 16th-17th centuries* due to the dissolution of the state and the special decrees with the ottomans that made their formation the only alternative for christianity. There was far less point to monasteries when the state and the church was one and the same. Of course many church buildings in them are far older.


 This is not true...most monasteries are 'leftover' congregations going back to the Greek philosopher Epicurus' time when he championed communal living. 


Watch til the end and you will also see that Epicurus was the main influence on Marx, although his ideas were distorted and corrupted to communism and totalitarianism later...


----------



## ayanamikun

The buildings which are my focus point are still from that time and not Epicurus'
After all the "Byzantine empire" is a neologism. It was called by name and substance the Roman Empire and had a continuation since classical times. 



JMGA196 said:


> Byzantine architecture is so simple yet so impressive, I think this is a way to show good architecture doesn't necessarily has to be ornamented without falling into many examples of the modernist and minimalist crap.


Well said!


----------



## ayanamikun

*Agioi Apostoloi

Area: Kalamata, Messinia
Type: cross-in-square
Date: 1050-1150 (?)*

A good followup of this thread is the neobyzantine architecture, of which I'm sure there must be a thread already


----------



## skymantle

ayanamikun said:


> The buildings which are my focus point are still from that time and not Epicurus'


 That's not what we were talking about, but the advent of monasteries...:nono:


----------



## ayanamikun

This argument is off the topic. You are bothered because I didn't make clear I was referring to the the building rather than the institution. Frankly I don't care about the institution, so obviously I wan't talking about that. I know that monasteries flourished well only during the ottoman empire years due to the excellent relations they had and church had in general with the Turks. Thusly, the vast majority of monastic architecture, in Greece which most examples are anyway, but also elsewhere date from the ottoman empire years, and you can see this from the time of construction.


----------



## skymantle

^^ you're quite wrong again and not very well informed in Greek history, but believe what you want to believe sweetie-pie. The information you supply I would say is not very reliable. :nono:

Greece's three most important UNESCO listed monasteries all built before the Ottoman occupation. :cheers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosios_Loukas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Moni_of_Chios

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphni_Monastery


----------



## Emma Goldman-Sachs

skymantle said:


> ^^ you're quite wrong again and not very well informed in Greek history, but believe what you want to believe sweetie-pie. The information you supply I would say is not very reliable. :nono:
> 
> Greece's three most important UNESCO listed monasteries all built before the Ottoman occupation. :cheers:


First of all this is not a history contest but an architecture thread on byzantine art. 
Secondly, monasticism in byzantine Greece started flourishing well after the era of the Iconomachy, when such dogmatic struggles ceased for a time, and the empire saw an age of spiritual and political stability under the amorian, macedonian and komnenian dynasties. This imperial protection and sponshorship, led to monastic communities being established statewide, with such examples as the ones you mention above, and many others such as the Great Lavra on Mount Athos, the monastery of the Apocalypse on Patmos, the Hozoviotissa monastery of Amorgos etc. After the fall of Constantinople (1204) and in the years that followed, the empire was in disarray and new strife arose in orthodoxy (see hesychasts for example, or the split between unionists and anti-unionists after the Council of Florence), that naturally affected the monastic communities as well. The ottoman era and the fact that the patriarchate and the monastaries enjoyed the personal protection of the Sultan led to a golden age in monasticism, that saw monasteries restructured and many others established. Even the monasteries you mention above have a common charecteristic: the only thing that survives from their byzantine past, structuraly and architecturaly speaking, is the katholikon at best. All the surrounding buildings, the monks cells, the dining halls (trapeza) and fortifications are usually subsequent structures dating back to ottoman and venetian era restorations and extentions.


----------



## Architecture lover

Santa Maria e San Donato | Murano | Venezia | *ITALY*






















Murano. Cathedral of Santa Maria and San Donato by Cornell University Library, on Flickr











Church of Santa Maria e San Donato by Brian, on Flickr











Church of Santa Maria and San Donato,;Murano, Venice by danaz99, on Flickr












Murano - Church of Santa Maria e San Donato by Karlis Blums, on Flickr


Murano - Church of Santa Maria e San Donato by Karlis Blums, on Flickr


Church of Santa Maria e San Donato by ramislevy, on Flickr











Murano: campo Santa Maria e Donato by HansHolt, on Flickr











16010466 by Carola Bieniek, on Flickr











16010469 by Carola Bieniek, on Flickr​


----------



## Architecture lover

Palace of the Porphyrogenitus | Istanbul - *ex Constantinople*

Previously someone asked for a secular Byzantine building - well here you have it. 
_This is a late 13th-century Byzantine palace in the north-western part of the old city of Constantinople (present-day Istanbul, Turkey). 
An annex of the greater palace complex of Blachernae, it is the best preserved of the three Byzantine palaces to survive._
It was renovated as of recently but not in a genuine way, 
therefore I am not posting photos of the renovation, weirdly enough it looked better as a ruin. 

*Purple was the color of Byzantium Royals.
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_the_Porphyrogenitus













Istanbul: Porphyrogenitus Palace (Blachernae Palace) by zug55, on Flickr​


----------



## Architecture lover

*• Actualizing Byzantine Art •*

As stated in the title Art was one of the aspects I wanted to include initially in this thread. To actualize what was a point of interest for the Byzantines. Ofcorse thanks to the Slavic little do we have left of it. The Iconoclast were the people who supported ruining imaginary and lavish decorations of the Byzantine Empire. The Slavic were one of those, they used to found their believes more similar to the growing Middle Eastern powers of the time, and the Muslims certainly disliked Christian imaginary. That is why not much Byzantine art survives.

Byzantine Empire | *KOMNENOS DYNASTY*









Alleged emblem of the Komnenos Family


The lamentation of Christ fresco

According to Andrew Graham-Dixon, British art historian and writer, these frescoes with their "...physical, electric presence..." 
are proof that there was more to Byzantine art than the formality and otherworldliness of its mosaic and icon tradition. 


Meister von Nerezi 001 [Public domain], by Meister von Nerezi, from Wikimedia Commons​
As for my opinion - I adore how they painted the Halo. Ever since antiquity the native people of this peninsula were obsessing with the idea that smart people have a golden bright light around their head, which makes them heroic. First noticeable in Hellenic period pottery, they've embraced this symbol - the Halo, completely in Byzantine times. For those interested, the Iconic Fresco is painted on the walls of the Church of St. Panteleimon constructed on the mountain above Skopje in 1164 as a foundation of Alexios Angelos, a son of Constantine Angelos. 
Here's the Church, that's basically how I've started the thread:


Architecture lover said:


> Church of St. Panteleimon, near Skopje by David Lewis, on Flickr​
> 12th Century Byzantine Church by David Lewis, on Flickr​
> Church of St. Panteleimon, Gorno Nerezi, near Skopje by David Lewis, on Flickr​


----------



## Architecture lover

Sarcophagi of Helena | *ROME *
*☩*​*I.* The Sarcophagus of Helena is the red porphyry coffin in which *Saint Helena*, the mother of *emperor Constantine* the Great, was buried (died 329). 
*II.* The coffin, deprived of it contents for centuries, was removed from the *Mausoleum of Helena at Tor Pignatarra*, just outside the walled city of Rome,
and ultimately moved to the *Vatican museums* in the 18th century.
*III.* The Sarcophagus is carved in the *Egyptian porphyry*, used only in the finest *Byzantine imperial monuments.*
*☩*​










Sarcofago di Elena by Spiros I., on Flickr​










Musei Vaticani by @@@@@, on Flickr​










[/url]Porphyry sarcophagus of St. Helena, mother of Constantine, 4th cent., Vatican Museums (3) by Richard Mortel, on Flickr​










Porphyry sarcophagus of St. Helena, mother of Constantine, 4th cent., Vatican Museums (2) by Richard Mortel, on Flickr​










Sarcophagus of St. Helena by Timo Hannukkala, on Flickr​


----------



## Architecture lover

Sarcophagi of Constantina | *ROME*
*☩*
*I.* The Sarcophagus of *Constantina *is in the same room as a second porphyry work that once housed the body of Constantina, 
*daughter of Constantine the Great* (died 354), which was once in her mausoleum on *Via Nomentana*, 
which became the church of *Santa Costanza *in 1254, and later to this museum. 
*II.* The decoration is a *semi-pagan* depictions of *cupids in Dionysic harvesting of grapes to make wine*. 
*III.* It has been interpreted as an *early Christian* reference to the eucharist.
*☩*











Sarcofago di Costantina by Spiros I., on Flickr
☩

Constantina's Sarcophagus by Mary Ann B, on Flickr











Vatikanische Museen, Museo Pio-Clementino, Sala a Croce Greca, Sarkophag der Konstantina, Tochter des Kaisers Konstantin I. (sarcophagus of Constantina, daughter of Emperor Constantin I.) by HEN-Magonza, on Flickr











Vatikanische Museen, Museo Pio Clementino, Sala a Croce Greca, Sarkophag der Konstantina, Tochter des Kaisers Konstantin I. (sarcophagus of Constantina, daughter of Emperor Constantin I.) by HEN-Magonza, on Flickr











Red Porphyry Marble Sarcophagus of Constantina daughter of Constantine by David McSpadden, on Flickr

A replica was placed on the initial place, after the original went to Vatican.











Santa Constanza by Jim Forest, on Flickr​


----------



## Architecture lover

Pammakaristos Church | *Constantinople *

Built in the XI century, it is now a Mosque (ever since the XVI century)











Monastery of Theotokos Pammakaristos / Fethiye Mosque by Jürgen Järvik, on Flickr


Pammakaristos Church, Balat, Istanbul #pammakaristos #byzantine #architecture #orthodox #church #balat #istanbul #cultural #heritage #ontheroad #discoveringtheworld #bbctravel #lonelyplanet #beautifuldestinations by Ata Gur, on Flickr











Fethiye Camii, or Church of Theotokos Pammakaristos, 12th cent (3) by Richard Mortel, on Flickr











Fethiye Camii from the air by Pi István Tóth, on Flickr​


----------



## Architecture lover

Chora Church | *Constantinople *

XI Century Church turned into a XVI Mosque. 




















Chora Church by rsetia67, on Flickr












Chora Church by Gayle, on Flickr











Chora Church by Ron Ellison, on Flickr











Chora Museum by Jill, on Flickr











Chora Museum by Jill, on Flickr











Chora Museum by Jill, on Flickr











HSX Koimetesis [GFDL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html), CC-BY-SA-3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/) or CC BY 2.5 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5)], 
by No machine-readable author provided. Marsyas assumed (based on copyright claims)., from Wikimedia Commons











Chora Church by Diane Homewood, on Flickr​


----------



## Architecture lover

Bridge of Arta | Greece | Arachthos River - *ΑΡΑΧΘΟΣ*

*I.* The bridge was first built under the Roman Empire. 
*II.* Some traditions say it was rebuilt when Arta became capital of the Despotate of Epirus, possibly under Michael II Doukas (r. 1230–1268). 
*III.* The current bridge is Ottoman, probably from 1602–06 or perhaps 1613.











Το Γεφύρι της Άρτας [CC BY-SA 3.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0) or GFDL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html)], 
by The original uploader was Harrygouvas at Greek Wikipedia., from Wikimedia Commons











Bridge of Arta (Greece) by Gor Tamazyan, on Flickr











Bridge of Arta (Greece) by Gor Tamazyan, on Flickr











Bridge of Arta - Το γεφύρι της Άρτας by Dimitris Kamaras, on Flickr











Άραχθος, Άρτα by Dimitris Kamaras, on Flickr


Arta's old bridge-6 by karagiann-photo, on Flickr











το γεφύρι της Άρτας by Γιάννης Χουβαρδάς, on Flickr


Arta's old bridge-7 by karagiann-photo, on Flickr











The Bridge of Arta by Petros Bratanis, on Flickr

A rather bizarre medieval story from Byzantium was written about the bridge and its construction, that's still being told, I believe almost everywhere across the Balkans:

A total of 45 masons and 60 apprentices, under the leadership of the Head Builder, were building a bridge, but its foundations would collapse each night. Finally a bird with a human voice informed the Head Builder that, in order for the bridge to remain standing, he should sacrifice his wife. As she is being buried alive in the foundations of the construction, she curses the bridge to flutter like a leaf, and those who pass it to fall like leaves also.
She is then reminded that her brother is abroad and might pass the bridge himself, so she changes her curses so as to become actual blessings: "As the tall mountains tremble, so shall the bridge tremble, and as the birds of prey fall, so shall passers fall".​


----------



## Architecture lover

The bridge itself inspired tons of other such bridges across all of the Peninsula, but especially in the region of Epirus, in Greece, whose people continued constructing bridges over the wild rivers of Epirus in a similar matter very well after the liberation from the Ottomans. Some of these date from the 19th century. 
Epirus is famed for the raw Greek beauty. 











Kokkoris old bridge. by Theophilos - Θεόφιλος Vossinakis, on Flickr











Kalogeriko by kzappaster, on Flickr


Kalogeriko by kzappaster, on Flickr











traditional bridge in zagorohoria by bill, on Flickr











Γεφύρι Κόκκορη by Achi Guitar, on Flickr


Old bridge by Giorgos~, on Flickr











Τhe Bridge of Plaka,Epirus by vasiliki2009, on Flickr











The bridge of Plaka in the river Arachthos , Epirus by Amalia Lampri, on Flickr











ΓΕΦΥΡΑ ΠΛΑΚΑΣ (2) by Fanis Man, on Flickr











Αραχθος ποταμος DSC02684 by Sotiris Marinopoulos, on Flickr​


----------



## Architecture lover

In case you were wondering why the examples in Turkey are in such bad shapes here you have the answers:

"Ms Ahunbay says the reconstructions encapsulate two of Mr Erdogan’s chief characteristics during his time in office — a nationalist brand of Islamism and a strong emphasis on construction. “They don’t care about Byzantine heritage; they don’t consider it as their own,” she says of the country’s rulers."
https://www.ft.com/content/e697a0b2-0a97-11e5-a8e8-00144feabdc0

The Monastery of the Pantocrator was turned into the Zeyrek Mosque, again, just now. 










Image-ZeyrekCamii20061230 02 [GFDL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html) or CC-BY-SA-3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/)], by A. Fabbretti, from Wikimedia Commons











Zeyrek Mosque by Cihan Gülbudak, on Flickr











Zeyrek Camii - former pantokrator church by Bora Arasan, on Flickr


----------



## Architecture lover

Remember the Porphyrogenitus Palace?



Architecture lover said:


> Istanbul: Porphyrogenitus Palace (Blachernae Palace) by zug55, on Flickr


This is what the Turkish made out of it, just now. They've covered the famed Byzantine arches to make the windows rectangle, so that they can look like a 17th century Ottoman building, and not a Byzantine and a European one.
UNESCO reacted for them to stop the 'renovation' process, but they didn't.
UNESCO now considers to remove both the Porphyrogenitus Palace and the Monastery of the Pantocrator from its protection, although it now lists them as extremely endangered pieces of the very scarce remains of Byzantine architecture.

Being illiterate was always the worst. They'll never know what they've just ruined.


----------



## Architecture lover

*☩*
*ΑΓΙΑ ΣΟΦΙΑ | SANCTA SOPHIA
**☩*

*I.* On the 23 of February, in the year 532, Emperor *Justinian *(born near Skopje FYRMacedonia, a native Latin speaker) 
decided to build an entirely different basilica, larger and more majestic than its predecessors.
*II. *Justinian chose geometer and engineer *Isidore* of Miletus and mathematician *Anthemius *of Tralles as architects.
*III. *It took them 5 years and 10 months to finish the construction, only the mosaics of the interior took some more time.






















Hagia Sophia Mars 2013 [CC BY-SA 3.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0)], 
by Arild Vågen, from Wikimedia Commons











Hagia Sophia from the air by Pi István Tóth, on Flickr











Hagia Sophia from the air by Pi István Tóth, on Flickr











Hagia Sophia from the air by Pi István Tóth, on Flickr











AyaSofya Top view from the air by Pi István Tóth, on Flickr











Blue mosque view from the top of the Hagia Sophia by Pi István Tóth, on Flickr​


----------



## Architecture lover

Now I know the minarets may confuse many, but you can't really expect the building to look Christian, or European after what happened.
Just try to envision the massive dome as a central point of view, I do realize the minarets are distracting, but the Church was supposed to look like a Byzantine bell, and that's why the minarets ruin the aspect where the dome is the peak in a harmonious way.
Edit: An equal cross placed in a circle was towering the very top of the dome.


----------



## Architecture lover

Anyways, what was lost is in the past, and unlike others I'm not willing to whine about it.
Here's something super pretty and unlike the examples above it is protected, already posted.

Манастир Свети Пантелеjмон | Μοναστήρι Αγίου Παντελεήμονα 
Church of Saint Panteleimon | *ОХРИД*





















Saint Panteleimon Monastery by Daniel Skjeldam, on Flickr











Church of Saints Clement and Panteleimon in Ohrid by Alen Šajina, on Flickr​


----------



## Architecture lover

Another far away aerial from the same place. 
The Neo Traditional buildings with glass pyramids on top of them will be the new Theological University of the Macedonian Orthodox church.
Once announced, it was a mega scandal because of the ancient ruins all around, 
but they somehow negotiated with UNESCO, to build the buildings in an unobtrusive way (for real?), so that when you're on street level the old Byzantine Church still dominates the view.




















Ohrid - Old Town by Chuck Altomare, on Flickr​


----------



## Architecture lover

This next church from France is usually labeled as Romanesque, but for me it's fairly Byzantine, it can be a transit from Byzantine into Romanesque in the 11th Century.



Architecture lover said:


> Palace of the Porphyrogenitus | Istanbul - *ex Constantinople*
> 
> *Purple was the color of Byzantium Royals.
> *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_the_Porphyrogenitus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Istanbul: Porphyrogenitus Palace (Blachernae Palace) by zug55, on Flickr​


Note the obvious similarity with the Palace of the people born in purple. ^

Cathédrale Notre-Dame du Puy | Le Puy Cathedral | Le Puy-en-Velay | *FRANCE*

*I.* Constructed over centuries, it contains architecture of every period from the 5th century to the 15th, 
which gives it an individual appearance. 
*II. *The bulk of construction, however, dates from the first half of the 12th century.











Le Puy en Velay 03 [CC BY-SA 1.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/1.0)], 
by GIRAUD Patrick, from Wikimedia Commons













Le Puy-en-Velay - Cloître de Notre-Dame du Puy - JPG1 [CC BY-SA 3.0 
(https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0), GFDL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html) or CC BY 3.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0)], 
by Jean-Pol GRANDMONT, from Wikimedia Commons











248 août 2018 - Auvergne, Le Puy-en-Velay, la Cathédrale Notre-Dame du Puy by Pascal POGGI, on Flickr











242 août 2018 - Auvergne, Le Puy-en-Velay, le cloître de la Cathédrale Notre-Dame du Puy by Pascal POGGI, on Flickr


Le Puys-en-Velay Cathedral Cloister by Stephen Shankland, on Flickr











Le Puy-en-Velay-007 by Simon, on Flickr​


----------



## franciscoc

Architecture lover said:


> This is what the Turkish made out of it, just now. They've covered the famed Byzantine arches to make the windows rectangle, so that they can look like a 17th century Ottoman building, and not a Byzantine and a European one.
> UNESCO reacted for them to stop the 'renovation' process, but they didn't.
> UNESCO now considers to remove both the Porphyrogenitus Palace and the Monastery of the Pantocrator from its protection, although it now lists them as extremely endangered pieces of the very scarce remains of Byzantine architecture.
> 
> Being illiterate was always the worst. They'll never know what they've just ruined.



It would be about the year 2011 when I visited the Porphyrogenitus Palace. An exciting afternoon, walking the perimeter of the mythical walls of Constantinople. Upon arriving at the palace, I was surprised by the state of one of the few civil buildings of the late Byzantine period. There was no guard and next to it there was a bus parking lot. The only possibility of visiting him was with a neighbor of the palace that had the key to open the gate. This neighbor offered me access to the palace and with great emotion and unconsciousness (because there was danger of collapse in some parts) we went up to the top where there was an amazing view of the Golden Horn. One of those moments that are not forgotten in life. 
Later I spoke with some people from Istanbul about this subject, about how abandoned were Byzantine monuments that were authentic gems of world history and art (Theodosian Walls, Porphyrogenitus Palace, Monastery of Stoudion, Magnaura,Boukoleon Palace....) and they were aware of this and the negligence of the authorities. 
The restoration that was made later was a shame, done without any rigor, and that has happened in other monuments of Istanbul of different times.


----------



## Architecture lover

When the British, French and Italian forces took the city back in WWI, they warned the Turkish to take good care of these scarce buildings, later when the city was given back to the Turks, they agreed they'll never convert them into mosques again, since if they cannot be churches, then they cannot be mosques too. The solution: Museums.
Now they started turning them into mosques all over again, that's so harmful for the mosaics covered interiors. The peak will be if they make Agia Sophia a mosque again, which they've been considering for a while now. A shame. UNESCO reacted on plenty of occasions, but with some people, having a word about the value that's already on the place, is not enough.


----------



## franciscoc

In Spain, as in France (Notre-Dame du Puy, Saint Front de Périgueux, Saint- Pierre de Angouleme), there are some examples of Romanesque architecture with a strong Byzantine influence. One of them is the Cathedral of Zamora (XII century).


----------



## Architecture lover

Yes, about the Cathedral Saint-Front, the French claim it was inspired by Constantinople's rooftops, which the French people saw for the first time in the Crusades.
It is definitely a church very Romanesque in its sense, but yeah the top is built as a Greek Cross (Cross in Square). 
They did build the cathedral right after they came back from Constantinople. 
The French people still list the building as Byzantine.


cathédrale de Périgueux by LaurPhil, on Flickr











Repos à Riberac by Lesley Hickman, on Flickr









*Source:*http://www.hotelroomsearch.net/city/saint-front-france











*Source:*http://www.labechade.com/La-Bechade-ENGLISH/Perigueux.php









*Source:*https://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/nouvelle-aquitaine/dordogne/perigueux/perigueux-voies-coupoles-cathedrale-st-front-sont-toujours-impenetrables-1526400.html​


----------



## ayanamikun

Hello, again, I'll post a few more of the same.
Not impressive buildings, but there are hundreds of them in Greece, so..

*Taxiarchis church (Ai Strategos)

Area: Niokastro, Kastania
Type: cross-in-square
Date: 13th century*

Another magnificent restoration. 
I just wished they could double down their efforts on the huge ruins of Mystras  that still require a lot of work..

Before: 









after:


----------



## ayanamikun

*Andromonastero Monastery

Area: Messinia
Type: complex cross-in-square
Date: 12-13th century*

The church is from the 12th century, as well as the tower next to it.
Dome is of Athenian type.










It was restored recently as well


----------



## Architecture lover

Beautiful places *ayanamikun*!
I believe we both did an amazing job at actualizing genuine Byzantine architecture.
Built by various Constantinopleans: Komnenos, Palaiologos, and the Macedonian dynasty (people of possible Armenian + Greek descent). 
Because if this is how the actual late styled buildings across the Empire looked like:











Church of St. John at Kaneo, Ohrid by Sven Landmeter, on Flickr​
Then the successors, or Byzantine Revivals can only look like this. ↓
It is foolish from us to expect from people who can't understand Byzantine, to understand this, even better, we shouldn't even try to explain them.
Such people aren't worth of our precious time + thoughts. 
I adore this genuine Revival from Thessaloniki. 










​


----------



## ayanamikun

There are indeed many such neo byzantine examples, that even though much bigger, they do try to follow some traditional patterns. I shall try to post examples from Athos, mostly the churches inside the monasteries that date from the era.


----------



## Cameraman89

Architecture lover said:


> It is foolish from us to expect from people who can't understand Byzantine, to understand this, even better, we shouldn't even try to explain them.
> Such people aren't worth of our precious time + thoughts.


:applause:

I just tried to explain to you it is stupid to be angry at forum's users and to demand something from them just 'cause you're unhappy with current church architecture of your country. Nobody impose to you someone else’s view of Byzantine architecture, no one says this "Russian" cathedral in Skopje is Byzantine, but this is your internal affair, sort it out yourself.

:gossip: And we know and understand what Byzantine is.


----------



## Architecture lover

No you don't. Otherwise your Revivals would've looked like this University in the US. I really don't want to spoil this thread too. 
I understand some are bothered by my posts. But I never promised to be good. Besides which person that glorifies himself as a Byzantium's Pig in his signature, can be considered an angel?
I just advocate Byzantine architecture, because this is how I want for the Revivals to look. Someone obviously got it right. The dedication of Americans to Byzantium and its famous and infamous events is one of a kind.
They even filmed TV series about Emperor Basil the Macedonian in the 90's. Who was a homosexual. Technically bisexual (he and Michael III and then another courtier, Basiliskianos) Would you believe that an Orthodox Christian, accepted by the church herself? And the people loved him, and we still do, regardless of his personal affinities. The architecture wasn't the only thing that was different. Life in the Empire was different.
This is about a lot more than just architecture, do you understand that? It's about life ideals. There were times when our Orthodox church wasn't so dogmatic and loved the people, her believers, with less judgment, and more understanding. An institution that was willing to Revive Classical times. We never reached that point. And with your rulers coming to seat in the ancient Byzantine thrones (yes that actually happened with your adored supreme god Putin), we're more far away than ever, from being who we were.











Rice University - Lovett Hall by Whiskey Maker, on Flickr


Rice University Door by Enes Çakir, on Flickr​
Obviously inspired from this Palace in Constantinople. The Americans even managed to find Purple Marble for the front pillars, knowing that the Byzantines were getting themselves obsessed with the purple color, using it in Byzantium silk (Empress Theodora's most favorite, don't even let me started on her story, lets say she started as a person who sold sex services and managed to become an Empress), and desperately searching for the lost ancient Roman mine for Porphyry (purple marble) in Egypt, which the Byzantines managed to rediscover eventually. 











Impression by Antoine Helbert | Constantinople​
Well, at least someone managed to Revive Byzantine in a decent way.
Not just the architecture, but the society too. 
You just can't understand anything of what I wrote, and why I wrote it. A waste of both mine and your time. Differences.


----------



## Architecture lover

Ayanamikun, these are Revivals right? They look recent. Perfection. Symmetry. Originality.


----------



## AnOldBlackMarble

Romania is currently building one of the largest neo-bizantine churches in the world. Sorry, video is in Romanian. 






This is not exactly classical byzantine but rather the Romanian version of Byzantine called Brancovenesc which evolved from 15th and 16th century Byzantine starting with this church from 1517.


----------



## Architecture lover

Architecture lover said:


> Ayanamikun, these are Revivals right? They look recent. Perfection. Symmetry. Originality.



It reminded me of this one, maybe where they borrowed the inspiration from, posted on the first page from the XIV century.
People in Macedonia claim it was built in the XI century instead.

St. Archangel Michael and St Hermit Gabriel of Lesnovo | *ЛЕСНОВО*​

Lesnovo monastery by Martin Dimitrievski, on Flickr


Lesnovo monastery-Monastery of St Archangel Michael and St Hermit Gabriel of Lesnovo - Свети Архангел Михаил и пустиножителот Гаврил Лесновски by boban onosimoski, on Flickr

Famed for the medieval frescoes on the walls. Unfortunately the eyes were scratched by Bulgarian soldiers during the 1915–18 occupation of Macedonia.
Have no idea why people decide to degrade art, especially something so old truly a shame.









Jovan Oliver [Public domain], by UnknownUnknown author (From this page, this image.), from Wikimedia Commons​


----------



## Notgnirracen

*Hagia Sophia Museum*

_Trabzon, Turkey_

Built: *1238-1263*

Commissioned by: *Manuel I of Trebizond*

Converted to Mosque: *1584*









Pi István Tóth, on Flickr









Pi István Tóth, on Flickr









Pi István Tóth, on Flickr









Pi István Tóth, on Flickr









Pi István Tóth, on Flickr









Pi István Tóth, on Flickr









Pi István Tóth, on Flickr









Pi István Tóth, on Flickr









Pi István Tóth, on Flickr









Pi István Tóth, on Flickr









Alexanyan, on Flickr









Alexanyan, on Flickr
​


----------



## Notgnirracen

*Church of the Holy Mother of God*

_Asen's Fortress, Bulgaria_

Built: *12th century*









annachytravels, on Flickr









annachytravels, on Flickr









annachytravels, on Flickr
​


----------



## Notgnirracen

*Holy Trinity Church*

_Berat, Albania_

Built: *13th century*

Commissioned by: *Andronikos Palaiologos (local governor)*









Claude Petitjean, on Flickr









Claude Petitjean, on Flickr









Claude Petitjean, on Flickr
​


----------



## Cameraman89

Architecture lover said:


> No you don't. Otherwise your Revivals would've looked like this University in the US. I really don't want to spoil this thread too.


This thread is precisely about Byzantine architecture, and not only for posting photos.



Architecture lover said:


> I understand some are bothered by my posts. But I never promised to be good. Besides which person that glorifies himself as a Byzantium's Pig in his signature, can be considered an angel?
> I just advocate Byzantine architecture, because this is how I want for the Revivals to look. Someone obviously got it right. The dedication of Americans to Byzantium and its famous and infamous events is one of a kind.
> They even filmed TV series about Emperor Basil the Macedonian in the 90's. Who was a homosexual. Technically bisexual (he and Michael III and then another courtier, Basiliskianos) Would you believe that an Orthodox Christian, accepted by the church herself? And the people loved him, and we still do, regardless of his personal affinities. The architecture wasn't the only thing that was different. Life in the Empire was different.
> This is about a lot more than just architecture, do you understand that? It's about life ideals. There were times when our Orthodox church wasn't so dogmatic and loved the people, her believers, with less judgment, and more understanding. An institution that was willing to Revive Classical times. We never reached that point. And with your rulers coming to seat in the ancient Byzantine thrones (yes that actually happened with your adored supreme god Putin), we're more far away than ever, from being who we were.


You as usual mix everything in one.. architecture, orthodoxy, russians, putin, god........ I tell you once again, no one in Russia considers as true Byzantine architecture what you mean. For that there is the prefix "pseudo": pseudo-Byzantine, pseudo-Russian, pseudo-Gothic and so on. Of course, not everyone is obliged to understand architecture, therefore confusion often arises, e.g. someone cannot even distinguish Gothic from Baroque, it depends on education and hobbies, but not everyone is obliged to know it. We have our own national stone architecture, and it formed already in the 11th century (look at St. Sophia Cathedral in Veliky Novgorod). And why did you start talking about politics and rulers here, if you don't want to have "Russian" churches at home, just use civilized ways to express your displeasure in your country, and without hysteria, please.


----------



## Architecture lover

I know what this thread is all about. I've started it, check the first page. *grins in a cringe way*
This thread is not about the Russian Pseudo - Byzantine as you say it. So we can quit the conversation now and focus on Byzantine architecture from Turkey, Greece, Macedonia and Albania - the regions with genuine ancient christian architecture. Because if you read the first post of this thread, that was exactly the initial idea. Everything else is offtopic.


----------



## Cameraman89

oh my gosh, I didnt say this thread is also about Russian architecture.


----------



## Notgnirracen

*St. Nicholas Monastery Church*

_Mesopotam, Albania_

Built: *1224 or 1225*









jordan pickett, on Flickr









jordan pickett, on Flickr









jordan pickett, on Flickr









jordan pickett, on Flickr









jordan pickett, on Flickr









jordan pickett, on Flickr









jordan pickett, on Flickr









jordan pickett, on Flickr









jordan pickett, on Flickr









jordan pickett, on Flickr
​


----------



## Cameraman89

^I thought all old churches in Albania were demolished by the dictator Hoxha.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Agios Petros Kalivion 

Area: Attika
Type: cross-in-square
Date: 12th century*

Not an impressive building, but in this case the interior decoration still partial survives, with a date on the murals reading the year 1232 A.D. 
Despite being near Athens, it doesnt have the Athenian type dome.


----------



## Architecture lover

Same over here, the Orthodox church tends to build nothing but Byzantine Revivals, except, compared to the Greek examples these are almost always much smaller, pretty much the size of the originals. The Greek examples are actually rather popular and admired here. Sometimes the Revivals here are far from faithful, but oh well, in pace with their dogmatic believes.



























None of the photos are mine I just share them.​


----------



## ayanamikun

Architecture lover said:


> Same over here, the Orthodox church tends to build nothing but Byzantine Revivals, except, compared to the Greek examples these are almost always much smaller, pretty much the size of the originals. The Greek examples are actually rather popular and admired here. Sometimes the Revivals here are far from faithful, but oh well, in pace with their dogmatic believes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of the photos are mine I just share them.​


That one looks very authentic indeed, from the late Byzantine era.


----------



## Architecture lover

I think the roof would be terracotta tiles, as usual.
There was another one very close to that one, of a small scale but super cute, I forgot the name, tried to search for it various times and couldn't find it again. The domes of that one were similar to those unusual ones at Mystras, nothing but forest around it, pity I couldn't find it again.
There are countless of these smaller churches being built all across the place, most of the time the quality is too low, no one takes count. It's the same with the Albanians, they built mosques all over the place, it's like competition between the two. Awful.

Recently the capital saw the construction of these completely windowless churches. Well at least they follow the cross in square plan. 
No light should be allowed in. icard:


Свети Три Светители, Скопје / Three Holy Hierarchs, Skopje by george k. 1981, on Flickr










​


----------



## Architecture lover

That's not Byzantine, nor are the two churches above you, can't you truly realize I posted them as a critic? Or you just test me, to see if I'll ever get exhausted of repeating that's not Byzantine. 
It'll never be.
This is Byzantine.
It's not intended to offend you, this is the style we seem to prefer in the south. This is how we want for our Revivals to look.











Saint John Kaneo by Ljupcho Gjorgjijoski, on Flickr











Hosios Loukas - Ιερά Μονή Οσίου Λουκά by dadofekl, on Flickr












Ohrid - St Sophia by Malcolm Bott, on Flickr












Church of St. Panteleimon, Gorno Nerezi, near Skopje by David Lewis, on Flickr


The Basilica of San Vitale (Ravenna, Italy) by John Breit, on Flickr​
Also to get one thing straight clear: the only style that's successor of the Byzantine is the Romanesque. Just like the only rightful successor of Romanesque is Gothic. 
*These three* were the major architectural styles for centuries in Christendom - Europe, one following the other.
Everything that was developed later, cannot be a rightful successor of Byzantine. Whoever states the opposite has a serious issue with architectural illiteracy.
After the fall of the Byzantine Empire, Europe decided to usher into an era of Renaissance, the fall of Constantinople was taken as a serious shock across Europe. End of story.


----------



## Architecture lover

*Byzantine Mosaic Art*

Basilica of Sant'Apollinare Nuovo | Ravenna | *ITALY*

It was reconsecrated in 561 AD, under the rule of the Byzantine emperor *Justinian I*, under the new name "Sanctus Martinus in Coelo Aureo".











Sant'Apollinare Nuovo Ravenna by raffaele pagani, on Flickr











processione delle Sante vergini - Sant'Apollinare nuova - Ravenna by raffaele pagani, on Flickr











Mosaico Madonna in trono col bambino e angeli - Sant'Apollinare Nuovo - Ravenna by raffaele pagani, on Flickr











Basilica of Sant'Apollinare Nuovo by Rob Hawke, on Flickr​


----------



## Architecture lover

*Byzantine Fashion on display in the Mosaics of Empress Theodora and Emperor Justinianus*

Basilica of San Vitale | Ravenna | *ITALY*

Mosaics of Emperor Justinianus I and Theodora.









Mosaic of Theodora - Basilica San Vitale (Ravenna, Italy) [Public domain], by Petar Milošević, from Wikimedia Commons









Sanvitale03 [CC BY-SA 3.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0)], by Roger Culos, from Wikimedia Commons​


----------



## Architecture lover

Also, here's the first post of the thread for those too lazy to go and read it. From now on we all stick to its rules. 



Architecture lover said:


> While reading the forums I've realized few people seem to be familiar with the Byzantine art and architecture. Every time they mention some tacky golden domes, I've seen that across the forums for quite awhile. So in this thread it's allowed to post only south European examples of churches and monasteries with preferable terracotta architecture.
> *SSC it's time for some esotericism.
> *Church of St. Panteleimon, near Skopje.
> 12th Century Byzantine Church, by the *Komnenos Dynasty*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Church of St. Panteleimon, near Skopje by David Lewis, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 12th Century Byzantine Church by David Lewis, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Church of St. Panteleimon, Gorno Nerezi, near Skopje by David Lewis, on Flickr​


----------



## ayanamikun

How did I miss that? Anyway:

*Hosios Meletios monastery

Area: Kitherona, Attica
Type: complex cross-in-square with additions
Date: 12th century
*

Source: http://www.religiousgreece.gr/monasteria/-/asset_publisher/0bMEUXPQRK0A/content/iera-mone-osiou-meletiou-kithairona

The center of the church dates from the 12 century. Of the original murals, few survive, the current ones date from the 17th century.


----------



## ayanamikun

*Asteriou monastery

Area: Immitos mountain, Attika
Type: cross-in-square with additions
Date: 10th century*

Another older structure, though the dating to the 10th century is a bit disputed.
Athenian Dome, ruble masonry, the murals are 16th century. 
Some reused ancient material like column capitals. Foundations sit on an unidentified ancient structure. 

http://www.byzantineathens.com/muomicronnueta-alphasigmatauepsilonrhoiotaomicronupsilon.html


----------



## Architecture lover

ayanamikun said:


> How did I miss that? Anyway:


Are you referring to the first post? :lol:
I'm sure you didn't miss that, but some others kept ignoring it, rightfully reported.
You can tell I'm sassy to an unhealthy point. :colgate: But have you seen those two examples from the capital? My question, that doesn't even need an answer is, who wouldn't be sassy after such unfaithfulness.



Architecture lover said:


> I think the roof would be terracotta tiles, as usual.
> There was another one very close to that one, of a small scale but super cute, I forgot the name, tried to search for it various times and couldn't find it again. The domes of that one were similar to those unusual ones at Mystras, nothing but forest around it, pity I couldn't find it again.


Also I found this tiny revival that I wrote about previously, not a lot of photos on the internet. 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Holy+Mother+of+God/@41.6120714,20.6002286,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipMUguOaiq5MceHghTfwKGPQH5zZS3BlAPPWqoql!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipMUguOaiq5MceHghTfwKGPQH5zZS3BlAPPWqoql%3Dw203-h152-k-no!7i2816!8i2112!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x13516cba2ce783b1:0x2b4dd34194992d1!2sRostushe!3b1!8m2!3d41.6092427!4d20.6012488!3m4!1s0x13516cbbf3934495:0x6d9dbb582aa2f574!8m2!3d41.6120714!4d20.6002289


----------



## Jolly Vlad

I agree with Architecture lover. I think in the case of a building belonging to foreign missions of the Russian Church, it may be built in a style that is more common in Russia, but other Orthodox countries also have their own historical architecture, it shouldn't be replaced by something alien.



Cameraman89 said:


> We have our own national stone architecture, and it formed already in the 11th century (look at St. Sophia Cathedral in Veliky Novgorod).


Oh no, I found, that's how it originally looked, it was built clearly led by Byzantine architects:


















and this is what's become of it by the 19th century:










Sorry for offtopic, I just wanted to say on the matter.


----------



## Architecture lover

Jolly Vlad said:


> I agree with Architecture lover. I think in the case of a building belonging to foreign missions of the Russian Church, it may be built in a style that is more common in Russia, but other Orthodox countries also have their own historical architecture, it shouldn't be replaced by something alien.


Those from the capital aren't even missions of the Russian Orthodox church.
I don't exactly understand the need for Russian Orthodox churches in FYRofMacedonia. There isn't any Russian population over here, this is not Montenegro. 
I believe it's very important for people to know that I wasn't the only one to react. Plenty of people reacted over here, it does not mean that'll stop the construction of Russian looking churches in the capital, financed by suspicions people that some would definitely call oligarchs.
Truly a shame, an actual usurpation of the cultural identity and belongingness to the very South of Europe, that did had its own very distinctive and admired christian architecture.
Ayanamikun, you say people in Greece complain because of the oversized revivals, but at least they follow the simplicity of materials you know, no such experiments as domes made of gold, in places where people struggle with far more serious problems. It does look totalitarian and out of touch with reality.
What I liked about our original Byzantine architecture is exactly the simplicity in the use of materials. It somehow corresponded with our actuality.


----------



## Architecture lover

Both of the buildings bellow look unfaithful to the originals. But if you ask me to choose, I'd gladly take the first one from Albania.
The second one from Skopje is really over the top, what were they thinking.











Korca, Albania 2017 - 2 [CC BY-SA 2.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0)], 
by Morice Olivier, from Wikimedia Commons

If you pay attention they've tried to mimic a terracotta tiles roof with the golden/brass alloy. icard:
What you can't see in the photos, but you can notice in person is that, the cracks of the stone are filled with gold.


Church of Sts Constantine & Elena 1 by Jonathan, on Flickr









^ It does however capture the church as an institution in a good light - gold obsessed creatures. 
You should see the massive cars they drive + the smartphones they use. ​


----------



## ayanamikun

I'm in the process of finding more examples to post from the various monasteries. In the meantime, here is another picture of Agios Eleutherios next to the Cathedral of Athens
(circa 1182-1204) posted before. 









EDIT: hmm the second one I have posted before, sorry. I'll try to fix the photos on page 2 as well


----------



## Architecture lover

*BYZANTINE ACHIEVEMENTS*

Now this post is purely educational,
so it doesn't exactly include any church, or secular building, or artwork by the Byzantines, 
but it mentions some of their architectural and technological achievement. 
Plus you have 12 centuries of Byzantine Bliss covered in 5 minutes.


----------



## melads

Some great looking churches. It would be great to see a neo-Byzantine style in modern buildings.


----------



## Architecture lover

I agree, especially in secular buildings, for example Universities. The style could fit very well an academic institution in my opinion. They've already done it in some places in the US - take a look at Stanford University in California for instance.
However I wish that we make our own such buildings, with terracotta that was baked from our own soil.

A melt of Byzantine and Romanesque very common across North America.

Stanford Memorial Church - *STANFORD UNIVERSITY* 












Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stanford_Memorial_Church_May_2011_001.jpg









Source:https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stanford_Memorial_Church_Interior_2.jpg​


----------



## Architecture lover

As someone who has voiced himself as a lover and protector of the late Byzantine era architecture, I do love how they made the chandeliers to look like a priest's thurible.


----------



## artObserver

Unfortunately, the earthquake destroyed its magnificent tower which was not restored













































Interior









Also, the arch at the quad's entrance was destroyed during the 1906 earthquake



































https://quake06.stanford.edu/centennial/gallery/structures/memchu/index.html#20
http://quake06.stanford.edu/centennial/gallery/structures/memarch/
http://quarriesandbeyond.org/cemeteries_and_monumental_art/quarry_to_cemetery_stone/calif_quarries_ca.html
https://125.stanford.edu/then-and-now/memorial-church/


----------



## Architecture lover

Didn't know about the earthquake, with the central tower it is definitely more Romanesque than Byzantine, that way only the front mosaic and the interior stay Byzantine. 
Love the arch though, it appears it might've been inspired by the arch of Galerius in Thessaloniki (4th century Byzantine).


----------



## melads

Even residential would be great. Maybe not too ornate, but some architectural elements that would be compatible with modern living. 

A bit like what the neo-traditional style that is growing in Berlin, but with a more Byzantine flare.


----------



## Architecture lover

This has to be my favorite Byzantine mosaic, love the representation of Emperor Leo, his facial expression, 
the Byzantine fashion displayed in the patterned silk robe he's wearing. 
Pretty much everything about this mosaic is captivating to me.

*Leo VI the Wise* | Macedonian Dynasty - 867 to 1056











Hagia Sophia - Imperial Gate Mosaic by Chris Bertram, on Flickr











Source​


----------



## Architecture lover

The guy who made this great reconstruction (Mustafa Kulle) will get an 'A' or a '10' (depending on the different grading systems) on architectural drawing.

A thing that bothers me a lot about the video however is the Greek Orthodox song behind. I might've been born an Orthodox too, but that will never stop me in realizing: this was a Latin church, it was built by Justinian Primus, and he was a native Latin speaker born near Skopje (a place called Tauresium). 

Byzantium was an Eastern Latin Empire (always put an emphasis on *Latin*). 

Sancta Sapientia | Hagia Sophia | Ayasofya

*Beginning date:* 532.
*Completion date: *537 - 1482 years ago.

*Interesting facts:*
_Hagia Sophia survived many earthquakes.
The round tower located on the North East of the church is called the Skeuophylakion - the Patriarchal treasure was kept there.
The small building on the South side of the building was the Baptistery._











Cypher of the last dynasty - Palaeologus


----------



## Architecture lover

On the right we can notice Hagia Irene and parts of the walls. 









Source


----------



## Chariton

Quick history lesson again (unfortunately):

The Divine Liturgy of Saint john Chrysostom (349-407 CE) Archbishop of Constantinople was the liturgy that became the norm that spread throughout the churches of the Byzantine Empire from the 6th century onward as the divine liturgy of the Church of Holy Wisdom, Hagia Sophia, the Imperial Cathedral of the Patriarchate. Also during the years of Justinian Byzantine hympnography flourished with the likes of composers like Romanus the Melodist.

Justinian's mother tongue may have been latin but that doesn't make the Empire a Latin Empire. The native language of Belisarius, Justinian's greatest general and head of his army, was probably Thracian but that doesn't make the imperial army a Thracian army. The architects of the church of Hagia Sophia, Isidorus of Miletus and Anthemius of Tralles were of probably Greek but that doesn't make Hagia Sophia a Greek church.

Since at least the 4th century BCE the dominant culture and everyday language of the people inhabiting the eastern Mediterranean, regardless of "ethnicity" was Greek. Also, the Christian Bible was written in Greek, the Ecumenical Councils that set the rules for ecclesiastical affairs were conducted in Greek and the religious rituals at the time were mainly performed, especially in the predominantly Greek speaking city of Constantinople, in the Greek language.

To whomever is interested, there is a little known writer called Edward Gibbon, that has written a humble little book called The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. I know it is old and antiquated, maybe also too "western", biased, anti-catholic etc, but it is a very nice introduction to the history of the era. Of course there are very interesting scholars after him. I would also recommend, Alexander Vasiliev, Steven Runciman and Robert Browning.


----------



## Architecture lover

Byzantium was a Roman Empire. 
It fall apart when the Greeks made a genocidal massacre on the Latin population in the city of Constantinople - on April 1182, they killed around 60.000 Latin inhabitants of the city, leaving only a Greek population of 40.000 - one that was so easily conquerable by the Turkish Sultans.

Read it yourself: Massacre-of-the-Latins. 

Why is this event so important in Byzantine history? Today a population of 60.000 Latins may not be considered important, but back then the most important cities of Europe didn't had a population larger than around 80.000.

For instance the population of London in that time was...get ready for it - 18,000.

So I know your inner Orthodox is triggered everytime you see educated people calling Byzantium a Roman Empire, but you won't change the course of history this time. You can't wipe those events from the pages of history books.
After that unfortunate moment when that church and that city stopped being Latin - Roman, they became Greek, only for a brief moment of history, because the Turkish people were already approaching you.

Do not attempt to dress this Empire in Greek-only robes, because for most of its existence it was dressed in actual Roman drapes. 

Just look at that architecture of the original model - it's round terracotta arch after round terracotta arch, supporting massive domes - are you so architectural illiterate when you fail to realize it's Roman architecture in its purest essence?

Like, BBC had a video of a 360 degree view of the church called *Hagia Sophia: a Roman church*, and there were so many triggered Orthodox people bellow the video.

It's simple history: two Italian girls came to my University on my freshman year, they were from Sicily, they showed me pictures of some ancient temples they have over there (Valley of the Temples), I noticed and concluded: they look Greek (Doric pillars), they both exclaimed with zero bitterness - that's because they're Greek.

Why is it so hard for us to admit this monumental church is a Roman marvel, just like those two wonderful girls did with Greek architecture?

It's because the Orthodox are spoiled, bitter, illiterate. I was growing up as an Orthodox man, "who could know better than me myself" is the attitude of the Orthodox. Rather disgusting.


----------



## Chariton

> Architecture lover;162613954]Byzantium was a Roman Empire.
> It fall apart when the Greeks made a genocidal massacre on the Latin population in the city of Constantinople - on April 1182, they killed around 60.000 Latin inhabitants of the city, leaving only a Greek population of 40.000 - one that was so easily conquerable by the Turkish Sultans.
> 
> Read it yourself: Massacre-of-the-Latins.
> 
> Why is this event so important in Byzantine history? Today a population of 60.000 Latins may not be considered important, but back then the most important cities of Europe didn't had a population larger than around 80.000.
> 
> For instance the population of London in that time was...get ready for it - 18,000.


I did read the article, in fact I already knew all about it. Did you?

Massacre of the Latins


> *From the late 11th century, Western merchants, primarily from the Italian city-states of Venice, Genoa and Pisa, had started appearing in the East.* The first had been the Venetians, who had secured large-scale trading concessions from Byzantine emperor Alexios I Komnenos. Subsequent extensions of these privileges and Byzantium's own naval impotence at the time resulted in a virtual maritime monopoly and stranglehold over the Empire by the Venetians.[5]


So as stated in the article those "Latins" were not native inhabitants of the city but migrated there after the 11th century, due to financial privileges and gradually build a strong community of 60.000. What does this have to do with the 6th century era of Justinian? How is it relevant?

Also, another fun read for you from wikipedia, which apparently is a great portal for historical research:
1081–1185: Constantinople under the Comneni


> Toward the end of Manuel I Komnenos's reign, the number of foreigners in the city reached about 60,000Â–80,000 people out of a total population of about* 400,000 people*.[64] In 1171, Constantinople also contained a small community of 2,500 Jews.[65] In 1182, all Latin (Western European) inhabitants of Constantinople were massacred.[66]


Are you sure the remaining population of the city after the massacre was 40.000 Greeks? Will you try to do the math again? Also, how on earth is this relevant with the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople 3 centuries later? And again, what does this have to do with the 6th century era of Justinian? How is it relevant?



> So I know your inner Orthodox is triggered everytime you see educated people calling Byzantium a Roman Empire, but you won't change the course of history this time. You can't wipe those events from the pages of history books.
> After that unfortunate moment when that church and that city stopped being Latin - Roman, they became Greek, only for a brief moment of history, because the Turkish people were already approaching you.
> 
> Do not attempt to dress this Empire in Greek-only robes, because for most of its existence it was dressed in actual Roman drapes.


I am sorry I cannot get in touch with my inner orthodox to ask him why he was triggered since I am an atheist, but I can reassure you that I very much like the educated people. Those people are saying, as I stated above that the predominant language of the church and the everyday people of what we call today the Byzantine Empire was Greek and not Latin. I am not trying to rewrite or "dress" anything, just trying to study and understand history, despite the nationalistic fables going around the Balkan peninsula as a whole. 



> Just look at that architecture of the original model - it's round terracotta arch after round terracotta arch, supporting massive domes - are you so architectural illiterate when you fail to realize it's Roman architecture in its purest essence?
> 
> Like, BBC had a video of a 360 degree view of the church called *Hagia Sophia: a Roman church*, and there were so many triggered Orthodox people bellow the video.
> 
> It's simple history: two Italian girls came to my University on my freshman year, they were from Sicily, they showed me pictures of some ancient temples they have over there (Valley of the Temples), I noticed and concluded: they look Greek (Doric pillars), they both exclaimed with zero bitterness - that's because they're Greek.
> 
> Why is it so hard for us to admit this monumental church is a Roman marvel, just like those two wonderful girls did with Greek architecture?


Can you please explain to me when and where did I exactly state anything about the architecture of the church of Hagia Sophia? How did you come about to the conclusion that I cannot admit that this monumental church is not a roman marvel?



> It's because the Orthodox are spoiled, bitter, illiterate. I was growing up as an Orthodox man, "who could know better than me myself" is the attitude of the Orthodox. Rather disgusting.


Completely agree with you there. Also you can replace orthodox with terms like racist, nationalist or brainwashed and it will work just fine.


----------



## Architecture lover

Chariton said:


> So as stated in the article those "Latins" were not native inhabitants of the city but migrated there after the 11th century, due to financial privileges and gradually build a strong community of 60.000. What does this have to do with the 6th century era of Justinian? How is it relevant?



Does them not being "native" normalizes the genocide they went thru?
As someone who has read the Byzantine history vividly, this south Empire was called Romania by its inhabitants, for either this way, or the other way it was always related to something containing the word Roman in it. 
It is extremely relevant since the guy who actually built this church was a native Latin speaker, I am not sure how many times will I have to repeat: this Roman Emperor spoke Latin as his native language, but I shall keep repeating it as long as it's needed for you to learn the importance of his native language, that's why it means so much. You see, no Haghia Sophia, no actual Byzantine legacy, but as long as this Roman monuments stands, it will keep us all reminded that the guy who build it - was a Roman.
It might actually do something with the fact, why those inhabitants refereed to themselves as Romans, not Greeks. 



Chariton said:


> Are you sure the remaining population of the city after the massacre was 40.000 Greeks? Will you try to do the math again? Also, how on earth is this relevant with the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople 3 centuries later? And again, what does this have to do with the 6th century era of Justinian? How is it relevant?


Many reliable sources state that the avengeful 4th Crusade damaged the city just enough for it to become Ottoman soon after. I'd sum it up to you: end of everything Roman related to the Empire meant the Empire will soon after have to fall apart, because it no longer represented what it was supposed to represent. That's how all this is related to the term Roman, and especially to the name Justinian. 
Which is ironic enough because that's where Andronikos Komnenos sold some of the few alive Latins as slaves - to the Ottomans.



Chariton said:


> I am sorry I cannot get in touch with my inner orthodox to ask him why he was triggered since I am an atheist, but I can reassure you that I very much like the educated people. Those people are saying, as I stated above that the predominant language of the church and the everyday people of what we call today the Byzantine Empire was Greek and not Latin. I am not trying to rewrite or "dress" anything, just trying to study and understand history, despite the nationalistic fables going around the Balkan peninsula as a whole.


You see we have another misunderstanding. Most educated people I come across to, mostly in the West note Byzantium as an Eastern Roman Empire till this day, I can't find a single one that states Byzantium as a Greek and not Roman empire as you say, I surly always come across the name Eastern Roman Empire right after I read Byzantium. 



Chariton said:


> Can you please explain to me when and where did I exactly state anything about the architecture of the church of Hagia Sophia? How did you come about to the conclusion that I cannot admit that this monumental church is not a roman marvel?


You need to re'read everything you wrote then. Byzantium being a Greek Empire? Neglecting the importance of the native language of the actual Roman Emperor that build this church, to name a few?

To me it's quite simple, after one gets to visit the monument, he/she sees how unmistakably Roman the architecture feels and looks up-close in person. Even with after what the Ottomans did to the place.
You see it's very odd, bellow that BBC video that stated this was a Roman church, the Greek people were the only one whining about it.
Even the Turkish people in the comments tried to reassure them, originally, this was a Roman church.


----------



## Notgnirracen

Sorry to go more off-topic into history here, but I'll just quickly point out something that I found interresting while reading your discussion, and that I haven't really thought about before. Namely - the possible connection between the massacre of the Latins and the emergence of someone like Gemistos Plethon, who advised the emperors to reform the Byzantine (Roman) Empire into a Hellenic one, based on ancient precedent. Now, admittedly he lived several centuries after the massacre, just at the end of the empire, and I have no idea to what degree the two might be related. Just a bit for food for thought.


----------



## Chariton

Architecture lover said:


> Does them not being "native" normalizes the genocide they went thru?
> As someone who has read the Byzantine history vividly, this south Empire was called Romania by its inhabitants, for either this way, or the other way it was always related to something containing the word Roman in it.
> It is extremely relevant since the guy who actually built this church was a native Latin speaker, I am not sure how many times will I have to repeat: this Roman Emperor spoke Latin as his native language, but I shall keep repeating it as long as it's needed for you to learn the importance of his native language, that's why it means so much. You see, no Haghia Sophia, no actual Byzantine legacy, but as long as this Roman monuments stands, it will keep us all reminded that the guy who build it - was a Roman.
> It might actually do something with the fact, why those inhabitants refereed to themselves as Romans, not Greeks.


Can you point out where and when exactly in my comments I have stated that the massacre of the latins (who were actually Pisan, Genoese and Venetian merchants that moved to Constantinople in the late 11th century and probably spoke Italian) should be considered normal because they where not native inhabitants of the city?
And again to ask the same question as I did before, why is the massacre of the Latins, that occurred in the 12th century relevant to emperor Justinian who reigned in the 6th century?
You don't have to repeat that Justinian's native language was probably Latin. I have already stated the same thing in my first comment if you bother to read it again. My question is, does the fact that the Emperor's native language was probably Latin, makes the Empire a Latin Empire? 
You are very correct that the inhabitants of the Empire refereed to themselves as Romans. Actually there is an article on wikipedia, that you so "vividly" read, about the fact:
Byzantine Greeks 


> The Byzantine Greeks were the Greek-speaking Christian Romans of Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages.[1] *They were the main inhabitants of the lands of the Byzantine Empire (Eastern Roman Empire)*, of Constantinople and Asia Minor (modern Turkey), the Greek islands, Cyprus, and portions of the southern Balkans, and formed large minorities, or pluralities, in the coastal urban centres of the Levant and northern Egypt. Throughout their history, *the Byzantine Greeks self-identified as Romans (Greek: Ῥωμαῖοι, romanized: Rhōmaîoi)*, but are referred to as "Byzantine Greeks" in modern historiography.





Architecture lover said:


> Many reliable sources state that the avengeful 4th Crusade damaged the city just enough for it to become Ottoman soon after. I'd sum it up to you: end of everything Roman related to the Empire meant the Empire will soon after have to fall apart, because it no longer represented what it was supposed to represent. That's how all this is related to the term Roman, and especially to the name Justinian.
> Which is ironic enough because that's where Andronikos Komnenos sold some of the few alive Latins as slaves - to the Ottomans.


Many historians trace the fall of Constantinople in 1453 to the conquest of the city in 1204. There are actually many of them that consider the latter as the real endpoint of the Imperial state, and the reconquest that followed as a frugal and unstable successor state phase. But what does the massacre of the Latins of 1182 has to do with that? You clearly stated in your comment above that:


> Byzantium was a Roman Empire.
> It fall apart when the Greeks made a genocidal massacre on the Latin population in the city of Constantinople - on April 1182, they killed around 60.000 Latin inhabitants of the city, leaving only a Greek population of 40.000 - one that was so easily conquerable by the Turkish Sultans.


Again I am asking you, what is the historical relation between the the Massacre of the Latins of 1182 with the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople?
You can argue that it helped as a pretext for the 4th Crusade, but how can it be considered the cause of the conquest of 1453? And again I will politely ask you, will you care to do the math again, regarding the population of the city in 1182 CE?
You also state that the event caused the end of everything Roman in the Empire. Will you care to elaborate on how this event occurred? Did the people stop considering themselves Romans or more accurately Ῥωμαῖοι afterwards?



Architecture lover said:


> You see we have another misunderstanding. Most educated people I come across to, mostly in the West note Byzantium as an Eastern Roman Empire till this day, I can't find a single one that states Byzantium as a Greek and not Roman empire as you say, I surly always come across the name Eastern Roman Empire right after I read Byzantium.


Can you point out where and when exactly in my comments have I stated that Byzantium, the Eastern Roman Empire is a Greek and not a Roman Empire?



Architecture lover said:


> You need to re'read everything you wrote then. Byzantium being a Greek Empire? Neglecting the importance of the native language of the actual Roman Emperor that build this church, to name a few?


I did read everything that I have written, but have you read everything that I have written? I have already stated that Justinian's native language was probably Latin in my first comment if you bother to read it again. My question is, does the fact that the Emperor's native language was probably Latin, makes the Empire a Latin Empire? As I stated above, giving you specific examples: 
The native language of Belisarius, Justinian's greatest general and head of his army, was probably Thracian but that doesn't make the imperial army a Thracian army. The architects of the church of Hagia Sophia, Isidorus of Miletus and Anthemius of Tralles were of probably Greek origin but that doesn't make Hagia Sophia a Greek church.



Architecture lover said:


> To me it's quite simple, after one gets to visit the monument, he/she sees how unmistakably Roman the architecture feels and looks up-close in person. Even with after what the Ottomans did to the place.
> You see it's very odd, bellow that BBC video that stated this was a Roman church, the Greek people were the only one whining about it.
> Even the Turkish people in the comments tried to reassure them, originally, this was a Roman church.


And I am going to ask you again, as in my comment above: Can you please explain to me when and where did I exactly state in my comments anything about the architecture of the church of Hagia Sophia? How did you come about to the conclusion that I cannot admit that this monumental church is not a Roman marvel?

I apologize for the off topic, but what I am reading here is something that has to be challenged.


----------



## Chariton

Notgnirracen said:


> Sorry to go more off-topic into history here, but I'll just quickly point out something that I found interresting while reading your discussion, and that I haven't really thought about before. Namely - the possible connection between the massacre of the Latins and the emergence of someone like Gemistos Plethon, who advised the emperors to reform the Byzantine (Roman) Empire into a Hellenic one, based on ancient precedent. Now, admittedly he lived several centuries after the massacre, just at the end of the empire, and I have no idea to what degree the two might be related. Just a bit for food for thought.


Georgius Gemistus Plethon is a very interesting figure indeed. He is considered the last of the neoplatonist philosophers and he actually argued for the abolition of Christianity the the reintroducing of the ancient greek olympic Pantheon. To make a connection with the massacre of Latins and his philosophical work is a bit of a stretch. The event that skyrocketed the hatred and resentment of the East toward the West, was the 4th Crusade and the frankish rule over the former empire that followed. In fact the hate was so much that the last Great Duke of the Empire Loukas Notaras, expressing the views of many of the empire's citizens and especially clergy, allegedly stated that: "_κρειττότερον ἐστὶν εἰδέναι ἐν μέσῃ τῇ Πόλει φακιόλιον βασιλεῦον Τούρκου, ἢ καλύπτραν λατινικήν_" which roughly translates to "It would be better to see the turban of the Turks reigning in the center of the City than the Latin mitre".
This expression has survived in a slightly different context across western Europe also, for example in the Netherlands during the dutch revolt it was a popular slogan: _Liever Turks dan Paaps_ ("Rather Turkish than Papist").


----------



## Architecture lover

Notgnirracen said:


> Sorry to go more off-topic into history here, but I'll just quickly point out something that I found interresting while reading your discussion, and that I haven't really thought about before. Namely - the possible connection between the massacre of the Latins and the emergence of someone like Gemistos Plethon, who advised the emperors to reform the Byzantine (Roman) Empire into a Hellenic one, based on ancient precedent. Now, admittedly he lived several centuries after the massacre, just at the end of the empire, and I have no idea to what degree the two might be related. Just a bit for food for thought.


I respect your point of view Notgnirracen. For me, you truly are an intellectual. For only an intellectual can note there have been efforts to Hellenize, to turn this Roman Empire, and show it of as a Greek one instead.

When I think of Byzantium as of something worth of your study, I usually think of Justinian I - Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Iustinianus Augustus, a man worth of all your attention, truly a great statesman. 

When I think of the Byzantine Empire, I think of the stunning mosaics found in actual Byzantine Basilicas in Ravenna, Italy. For me - that's Byzantium, not a Greek-Serb Orthodox construct, that happened, and it's happening now that the Empire had fallen and it's so easy for them to re-shape and re-write the history of the Empire as it fits their contemporary Orthodox purposes. 

I sure hope Italy, Albania, and the Vlachs-Aromanians of North Macedonia will pick up some interest in this issue and stop this trend of showing of everything that happened on this peninsula as Greek, it's a very damaging Orthodox trend that has nothing to do with the actual Eastern Roman Empire. The Vlachs might be a minority nowadays, but they're recognized in Macedonia and they're allowed to study in their own language and even up to this day - their native language is Latin, and these people relate much more to North Macedonia, to Albania and especially to Italy, than to Greece itself. I have no problem to realize this Empire was multicultural and for a good percent of its time the inhabitants were also a significant Greek population, yet, these other nations, the Illyrians and the Romans situated their capital - Constantinople north east of the actual Greece.

That's where I trace the problem with the Orthodox, it's all Greek to them, while infact it was a very multi cultural Empire, spanning in its peak all the way to the province of Spania, on the other side of the Mediterranean - leading me to a conclusion: it was much more of a Roman Empire than a Greek one.
For me - that's what Byzantium is all about. Not a Greek-only modern Orthodox construct.


----------



## Chariton

Architecture lover said:


> I respect your point of view Notgnirracen. For me, you truly are an intellectual. For only an intellectual can note there have been efforts to Hellenize, to turn this Roman Empire, and show it of as a Greek one instead.


Will you care to elaborate on that? Who are those evil people who tried to hellenize the empire? Can you give examples? Is Pletho one of them? Does hellenize mean abolish Christianity and go back to paganism? Who else advocated that? Was it a popular belief in the years of the Byzantine Empire? And again what does this have to do with the era of Justinian and the 6th century CE?



Architecture lover said:


> When I think of Byzantium as of something worth of your study, I usually think of Justinian I - Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Iustinianus Augustus, a man worth of all your attention, truly a great statesman.
> 
> When I think of the Byzantine Empire, I think of the stunning mosaics found in actual Byzantine Basilicas in Ravenna, Italy. For me - that's Byzantium, not a Greek-Serb Orthodox construct, that happened, and it's happening now that the Empire had fallen and it's so easy for them to re-shape and re-write the history of the Empire as it fits their contemporary Orthodox purposes.


There are also stunning mosaics found in actual Byzantine Basilicas in Modern Greece like Hosios Loukas, Dafni Monastery, Nea Moni (all Unesco world heritage monuments). There are also fantastic examples of Byzantine Architecture in Bulgaria, Turkey etc. Are these less important? Les Byzantine?
Also I have never heard of o Greek-Serb Orthodox construct that happened? When did it happen? Care to elaborate?



Architecture lover said:


> I sure hope Italy, Albania, and the Vlachs-Aromanians of North Macedonia will pick up some interest in this issue and stop this trend of showing of everything that happened on this peninsula as Greek, it's a very damaging Orthodox trend that has nothing to do with the actual Eastern Roman Empire. The Vlachs might be a minority nowadays, but they're recognized in Macedonia and they're allowed to study in their own language and even up to this day - their native language is Latin, and these people relate much more to North Macedonia, to Albania and especially to Italy, than to Greece itself. I have no problem to realize this Empire was multicultural and for a good percent of its time the inhabitants were also a significant Greek population, yet, these other nations, the Illyrians and the Romans situated their capital - Constantinople north east of the actual Greece.


I surely hope that that all these people do pick up interest in Byzantine history it is indeed very interesting. As a matter of fact I have a couple of Vlach friends from Trikala, and I have also visited many places in Greece with strong Vlach present and traditions. I have been twice to vlach festivals around Greece where people sing vlach songs, but nobody there told me that they relate much more to North Macedonia, to Albania and especially to Italy, than to Greece itself. Have you? Are there any scholars that I haven't read that are supporting that view?
Who expressed an opinion different of the fact that the Byzantine Empire was a multicultural empire? Are there any scholars supporting that view? Also are you saying that the city of Nova Roma was founded where it was founded just to be placed north east of the "actual greece"? Why? Is that the reason for the move of the capital and the choice of it's location? Also the people leaving there already in the former city of Byzantium where did they come from?



Architecture lover said:


> That's where I trace the problem with the Orthodox, it's all Greek to them, while infact it was a very multi cultural Empire, spanning in its peak all the way to the province of Spania, on the other side of the Mediterranean - leading me to a conclusion: it was much more of a Roman Empire than a Greek one.
> For me - that's what Byzantium is all about. Not a Greek-only modern Orthodox construct.


How does the fact that Justinian manage to reconquer part of the old province of Hispania for a brief period of time leads to the conclusion that the Byzantine Empire was "much more Roman"? Care to elaborate on that?
Also no reliable scholar that I know of ever questioned the fact that the Byzantine Empire was a multicultural Empire. But let me ask you again and please point me to the scholarly opinions around: What was the everyday language used by the vast majority of the people of the Empire through the years it spanned? What was the language used by the church and clergy of the Empire throughout the years it spanned? Was it Latin?


----------



## Architecture lover

Chariton said:


> which roughly translates to "It would be better to see the turban of the Turks reigning in the center of the City than the Latin mitre".
> This expression has survived in a slightly different context across western Europe also, for example in the Netherlands during the dutch revolt it was a popular slogan: _Liever Turks dan Paaps_ ("Rather Turkish than Papist").


I'd say something along this way - the Latins realized the Empire was no longer Roman after the Massacre, raided the city in the 4th Crusade taking back to Venice Byzantine riches (they were the ones ruling the successful finance before the genocide after all), they even took back their purple marble pillars in order to dress their new San Marco Basilica, and left the city to the mercy of whoever finds it.

If this city was ever meant to be Greek, it should've been one right after the Romans left, infact it would've probably been Greek up to this day. 
But it's not. I don't think it's ever going to be one.

This stunning Round Arched Cathedral above, it was either a church of a Roman Empire, or either a mosque.


----------



## Architecture lover

Chariton said:


> How does the fact that Justinian manage to reconquer part of the old province of Hispania for a brief period of time leads to the conclusion that the Byzantine Empire was "much more Roman"? Care to elaborate on that?
> Also no reliable scholar that I know of ever questioned the fact that the Byzantine Empire was a multicultural Empire. But let me ask you again and please point me to the scholarly opinions around: What was the everyday language used by the vast majority of the people of the Empire through the years it spanned? What was the language used by the church and clergy of the Empire throughout the years it spanned? Was it Latin?


I won't be answering any of your questions anymore. If one gets to read solely this post of yours, a breeze of Latin antagonism comes straight out of it, a breeze of carelessness about Justinian and his achievements, and yet it's his church you so desperately want to reclaim, and I am so desperately sorry for you, but that's just not going to happen.

The only thing you can do is build cheesy, try hard, unreliable replicas of this original Roman church, like the one they have in Belgrade for example, they are everything but not quite Byzantine.

The Byzantine ones are in Ravenna.


----------



## Chariton

Architecture lover said:


> I'd say something along this way - the Latins realized the Empire was no longer Roman after the Massacre, raided the city in the 4th Crusade taking back to Venice Byzantine riches (they were the ones ruling the successful finance before the genocide after all), they even took back their purple marble pillars in order to dress their new San Marco Basilica, and left the city to the mercy of whoever finds it.
> 
> If this city was ever meant to be Greek, it should've been one right after the Romans left, infact it would've probably been Greek up to this day.
> But it's not. I don't think it's ever going to be one.
> 
> This stunning Round Arched Cathedral above, it was either a church of a Roman Empire, or either a mosque.


:lol::lol::lol:

I am sorry for laughing but this is honestly hopeless.
When did the Venetians realize the Empire was not Roman anymore? Would they respect it more if that was the case? Was the reason for the 4th crusade the fact that the Empire has become "deromanized"? Can you please point me to the scholarly debate that supports these views?
Also, what do you mean by "they left the city to the mercy of whoever finds it"? Who left what exactly? Why was the Latin Empire of Constantinople established then afterwards?
Lastly, who are the Romans that left and where did they go? Did the people "left behind" not consider themselves Roman or more accurately Ρωμαιοι anymore? Plus Constantinople is called Istanbul today and is inhabited by Turkish people. Which scholar exactly challenges that?

P.S Don't know if you noticed, I have more questions above and I am expecting answers based on SOLID arguments.


----------



## Chariton

Architecture lover said:


> I won't be answering any of your questions anymore. If one gets to read solely this post of yours, a breeze of Latin antagonism comes straight out of it, a breeze of carelessness about Justinian and his achievements, and yet it's his church you so desperately want to reclaim, and I am so desperately sorry for you, but that's just not going to happen.
> 
> The only thing you can do is build cheesy, try hard, unreliable replicas of this original Roman church, like the one they have in Belgrade for example, they are everything but not quite Byzantine.
> 
> The Byzantine ones are in Ravenna.


No dear I am afraid it doesn't work like that.
It was you that stated that you are bothered by the Greek "song" in the video you posted and also stressed the fact that we should emphasize on the Latin character of the Eastern Roman Empire, without providing any solid arguments why we should do that and why it is all right to be bothered by the Greek "song" (musical taste is irrelevant).

I am personally neither trying to reclaim anything, nor build any replica and I am certainly not careless. Can you point when and where exactly in my comments have I tried to do any of these stuff?

I am still expecting answers to my questions based on SOLID arguments.


----------



## Architecture lover

Chariton said:


> I surely hope that that all these people do pick up interest in Byzantine history it is indeed very interesting.
> As a matter of fact I have a couple of Vlach friends from Trikala, and I have also visited many places in Greece with strong Vlach present and traditions.
> I have been twice to vlach festivals around Greece where people sing vlach songs, but nobody there told me that they relate much more to North Macedonia, to Albania and especially to Italy, than to Greece itself.
> Have you? Are there any scholars that I haven't read that are supporting that view?


Well, isn't their Vlach Latin language more of a proof to their actual belongingness to Italian-Roman affairs? 
I mean you do know this so much of a taboo minority in Greece originally speaks a Latin language? 
Oh I forgot it's only Macedonia and Albania that allows this minority to study on their own language, in Greece their language is forbidden.
They're being assimilated right? Right. Some genocidal tendencies just never change regardless of time.


Valens Aqueduct


Aqueduct of the grey falcon by Cap'n Jules @ Snickarbon, on Flickr


----------



## Architecture lover

Chariton said:


> :lol::lol::lol:


According to the 19th century philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, “All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as self-evident.”

I see you're still at the first stage. Worry not, the Vlachs of Macedonia might be too insignificant in numbers to speak their truth.

But Albania seems to be on a very bright road indeed. Amazing people in Italy, Switzerland, UK, and across the Atlantic are very interested in hearing their version of the story. I myself am ecstatic and can't wait to hear it. 
Soon enough, everything in its time.


----------



## Chariton

Architecture lover said:


> Well, isn't their Vlach Latin language more of a proof to their actual belongingness to Italian-Roman affairs?
> I mean you do know this so much of a taboo minority in Greece originally speaks a Latin language?
> Oh I forgot it's only Macedonia and Albania that allows this minority to study on their own language, in Greece their language is forbidden.
> They're being assimilated right? Right. Some genocidal tendencies just never change regardless of time.


What are the Italian-Roman affairs? Are they still going on? Who and when has forbid the Greek Vlachs to take part in them? Who told you that it is a taboo to be a Vlach speaker in Greece? Have you read any scholarly debate on the matter? Who told you that the Vlachs are forbidden to study the Vlach language, which everybody accepts that is descended from vulgar latin. Have you ever heard of the many Vlach cultural associations all around Greece, where people study their language, organize music festivals with songs in the Vlach language, showcase their culture in museums? Have you been to Metsovo to hear Vlach been spoken all around the town? Have you been to Greece at all? Have you read all the stuff that you are claiming somewhere so I can read them too?

Also, I am going to repeat that again and again and as many times that it takes to get an answer based on solid arguments. What does this have to do with the 6th century era of Justinian? How is this relevant?


----------



## Chariton

Architecture lover said:


> According to the 19th century philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, “All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as self-evident.”
> 
> I see you're still at the first stage. Worry not, the Vlachs of Macedonia might be too insignificant in numbers to speak their truth.
> 
> But Albania seems to be on a very bright road indeed. Amazing people in Italy, Switzerland, UK, and across the Atlantic are very interested in hearing their version of the story. I myself am ecstatic and can't wait to hear it.
> Soon enough, everything in its time.


What on earth are you saying man? What is happening?

Anyway, I am going to repeat it: how are the Vlach communities relevant to the predominant language of the people inhabiting Constantinople and the Eastern Mediterranean during the 6th century era of Justinian?


----------



## Chariton

Architecture lover said:


> The guy who made this great reconstruction (Mustafa Kulle) will get an 'A' or a '10' (depending on the different grading systems) on architectural drawing.
> 
> A thing that bothers me a lot about the video however is the Greek Orthodox song behind. I might've been born an Orthodox too, but that will never stop me in realizing: this was a Latin church, it was built by Justinian Primus, and he was a native Latin speaker born near Skopje (a place called Tauresium).
> 
> Byzantium was an Eastern Latin Empire (always put an emphasis on *Latin*).
> 
> Sancta Sapientia | Hagia Sophia | Ayasofya
> 
> *Beginning date:* 532.
> *Completion date: *537 - 1482 years ago.
> 
> *Interesting facts:*
> _Hagia Sophia survived many earthquakes.
> The round tower located on the North East of the church is called the Skeuophylakion - the Patriarchal treasure was kept there.
> The small building on the South side of the building was the Baptistery._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cypher of the last dynasty - Palaeologus


Since I am not getting any answers to my questions, I will try to keep reposting the initial questions that I posed (just to try to keep the conversation on track) on this thread, for as long as I am able until I get some answers based on SOLID arguments.

My arguments:
The Divine Liturgy of Saint john Chrysostom (349-407 CE) Archbishop of Constantinople was the liturgy that became the norm that spread throughout the churches of the Byzantine Empire from the 6th century onward as the divine liturgy of the Church of Holy Wisdom, Hagia Sophia, the Imperial Cathedral of the Patriarchate. Also during the years of Justinian Byzantine hympnography flourished with the likes of composers of Romanus the Melodist. 

Hymns very similar to the "greek song" played in the background of the video, based in the same musical tradition and certainly in the same language were performed for hundreds of years in the aforementioned church, and in all probability were even performed in 537 CE during the inauguration of the cathedral by Emperor Justinian.

Justinian's mother tongue may have been Latin but that doesn't make the Empire a Latin Empire. The native language of Belisarius, Justinian's greatest general and head of his army, was probably Thracian but that doesn't make the imperial army a Thracian army. The architects of the church of Hagia Sophia, Isidorus of Miletus and Anthemius of Tralles were of probably Greek origin but that doesn't make Hagia Sophia a Greek church. 

Since at least the 4th century BCE the dominant culture and everyday language of the people inhabiting the eastern Mediterranean, regardless of "ethnicity" was Greek. Also, the Christian Bible was written in Greek, the Ecumenical Councils that set the rules for ecclesiastical affairs were conducted in Greek and the religious rituals at the time were mainly performed, especially in the predominantly Greek speaking city of Constantinople, in the Greek language.

So:
Why should we feel bothered by the "greek song" played in the background of the video you posted? Should we hear something else instead and why? (musical taste is irrelevant)
Why should we "realize" that the Byzantine Empire is an Eastern Latin Empire, and always emphasize on Latin? Where should we base such a realization? 

I am expecting answers founded on SOLID counter arguments.

Bonus question: Can you solve this, totally irrelevant with the subject, mathematical equation of medieval genocide? 400.000 - 60.000 = x


----------



## Notgnirracen

Good idea! Considering that I could make a whole thread about the variations of the classical Doric capital (which are really minimal by comparison), this could definitely work. There's a lot to be discovered!


----------

