# Help me decide which European city to move to! :o)



## Postmodern Miss (Sep 5, 2008)

Hey ppl,

I've just joined this forum and am quite impressed with how well-traveled and informed the members are. It makes for very interesting reading... 

Anyway, I'm quite sick of Sydney and am interested in relocating to a progressive city in Europe next year (I have an EU passport). 

*What I like about Sydney (and would like to experience again wherever I go)*: the multiculturalism, the gay-friendliness, the Asian food (esp. Thai and Vietnamese), the cleanliness (for a large city, anyway), the lack of pretentiousness, the warm weather, the proximity of the beach, the green spaces

Right now my top spots to move to are. Barcelona, Stockholm, Copenhagen and London. 

I have been to Barcelona and London, but not Copenhagen or Stockholm. 

I am interested in *Barcelona* because: of the bohemian elements, the legalisation of gay marriage and adoption, the architecture, the warm weather (for Europe), the Spanish language (I want to learn it) and the aesthetically pleasing people, the joie de vivre

However, the strong Roman Catholic influences kid of bug me (I'm an atheist), the lack of English speakers will probably leave me quite lonely as it's my No #1 language of choice, and I'm not a fan of the food

I am interested in *London* because: there's so much to see and do (including a fabulous music scene and top exhibitions in museums and galleries), it's more multicultural than Sydney, the proximity to continental Europe, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and North America, they speak English (although I have trouble understanding the accent, and it can sometimes annoy me), there's Asian food aplenty, the architecture can be quite appealing

However, I find the English people are too absolutist in their world views (I'm a postmodernist), the weather sucks, the class divides are worrying, and also the people can be too uptight and pessimistic for my liking

I haven't been to *Stockholm or Copenhagen* (hopefully that will change soon), but I am interested in them because I hear they are quite gay-friendly, progressive societies which value equality, human rights and personal happiness. Also, the people are gorgeous. I have a few friends in Sweden and Denmark who add to the appeal. I think both cities have visually appealing elements (the mixture of gold, blue and red buildings side by side), though I worry about the weather and the relatively small population of the capitals. 

Any suggestions? Perhaps there is a fifth option I'm not considering? All feedback would be appreciated!


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## Berris (Oct 8, 2005)

Postmodern Miss said:


> However, the strong Roman Catholic influences kid of bug me (I'm an atheist), the lack of English speakers will probably leave me quite lonely as it's my No #1 language of choice, and I'm not a fan of the food


Hey come on... strong Roman Catholic... :| The Church is not powerful over here.... Lack of English speakers, yes... but you can find a lot of British, American etc people living over here... and Germans etc who speak English... you can learn Spanish with the Spanish and when you feel "lonely"  you can join your future English-speaking group. And how can somebody not to like Spanish food? Tapas, tortilla, ham... and there are lots of Chinese, Syrian, Lebanese etc restaurants as well....

I think Barcelona is your best option. I live in London for 6 months, I enjoyed it but too dark! And Copenhagen... winter -10 and summer 18... never been to Stockholm but the same than Copenhagen.


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## DiggerD21 (Apr 22, 2004)

What about Amsterdam? If you are not dependent of a job, also Berlin might be your choice.

What is your professional area?


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## sarflonlad (May 13, 2005)

Postmodern Miss said:


> I am interested in London because: there's so much to see and do (including a fabulous music scene and top exhibitions in museums and galleries), it's more multicultural than Sydney, the proximity to continental Europe, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and North America, they speak English (although I have trouble understanding the accent, and it can sometimes annoy me), there's Asian food aplenty, the architecture can be quite appealing
> 
> However, I find the English people are too absolutist in their world views (I'm a postmodernist), the weather sucks, the class divides are worrying, and also the people can be too uptight and pessimistic for my liking


Maybe don't come to London then? We have enough over optimistic Aussies complaining about the weather already. Thanks. 

Can I quote this bit again:



> However, I find the English people are too absolutist in their world views (I'm a postmodernist)


:lol::lol:


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## Tubeman (Sep 12, 2002)

DiggerD21 said:


> What is your professional area?


A very important consideration...

Language is also very important, it's hard enough upping sticks and moving 10,000 miles as it is, but to have to learn a new language as well is a real challenge.

I think moving to London first, at least temporarily, will give you more of a 'soft landing'. You can use London as a base to travel to other European cities and decide which one you want to move to, whilst benefitting from being in an Anglophone country with a huge Aussie expat community.

If language were no barrier, then I'd say Barcelona... Definitely my favourite continental European city.


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## Timon91 (Feb 9, 2008)

Amsterdam would be a good choice. It is gay friendly. Two men walking hand-in-hand is not uncommon in the city. Most people speak English very well. However, it's not very clean and the weather is quite bad. The beach is close though (20 mins by train).


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## Postmodern Miss (Sep 5, 2008)

Berris - How much influence would you say the church does have? I got the impression that Spain was host to both very progressive and quite conservative attitudes, which co-exist side by side. Any new perspectives on this issue would be very interesting. 

I wish I did like the mainstream Spanish cuisine, but I find it too oily, with not enough fruits and vegetables... or maybe it was just the restraunts I selected? I was only there for five days. 

Digger - I have been to Amsterdam and while I generally like it, the architecture and the sound of Dutch have deterred me from a long-term stay. 

I'm a writer and singer, however I'm willing to work as an English teacher if I can't find work immediately. 

In regards to Sarflonlad's comment about me being 'Aussie' -

I should probably point out that I usually get mistaken for a North American in Australia and everywhere else (apart from North America, where they ask me if I'm British, lol). I see myself as a 'citizen of the world', as I've traveled to four continents and don't have a sense of national identity. 

Tubeman - Thank you for your very helpful suggestion!  Maybe I can move to London and start learning Spanish there so that I'm not a total beginner when I try Barcelona. 

Timon - I didn't know Amsterdam had a beach nearby, thanks for the info! I'll def keep it in mind when I visit...


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## Berris (Oct 8, 2005)

Postmodern Miss said:


> Berris - How much influence would you say the church does have? I got the impression that Spain was host to both very progressive and quite conservative attitudes, which co-exist side by side. Any new perspectives on this issue would be very interesting.
> 
> I wish I did like the mainstream Spanish cuisine, but I find it too oily, with not enough fruits and vegetables... or maybe it was just the restraunts I selected? I was only there for five days.


Church has influence 0 in my life and the lifes of 99% of people I know. If you want to go to the Church on Sunday... (my mother for example ). It's a personal option. Most of people are atheistic. There's no difference with other European countries... and come on, we have Zapatero as President!  Liberalism is in the air  

Spanish cuisine and vegetables... well... do you know gazpacho? it's a vegetable soup, and paella includes vegetables... well... mediterranean cuisine is the healthier in the world I think  You can find lots of vegetables in the supermarket, as I guess most of the days you would cook in the kitchen, or you go to restaurants everyday


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## Postmodern Miss (Sep 5, 2008)

Berris - 

Cool, it's nice to know that there's a sizable non-religious community as well... 

Maybe the best option is to live in London for six months of the year (including its 'summer') and spend the rest of the time in Barcelona? 
Hmmm, I wonder if I can actually make that compatible with some kind of steady income...


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## Brummyboy92 (Aug 2, 2007)

You should maybe look at other cities, I live in Birmingham and I would suggest anyone to come and live here.

It has a big gay community, loads of night life. Great shopping destination from big shop centres to large markets.

The canals are also lovley and if I had that much money I would move there in a flash.

Heres a few pictures, thanks to the birmingham forumers!














































And heres a little in sight into the future!


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

Hey as a Londoner I cannot more recommend the culture, mix of cultures, nightlife and gay scenes (said to be the best in the world, though Im sure Madrid and Frisco might have something to say about that). Apparently there are more GLBT bars and businesses than NYC and Sydney combined, according to the 2008 Time Out London guide. London is culturally and socially rich, and very mixed.
However your quality of life will drop in other aspects on moving here, the expenses, and that if youre not rich you will probably have to commute a long distance to work on often overcrowded transport, from a down at heel area, in a flatshare. This may be all part of the appeal as far as I know, but just don't expect to find a lovely spacious apartment or a walk to work.

Copenhagen has recently topped the list of best city in the world for standard of living according to Monocle magazine, though be warned Denmark is not as progressive and open a country as it once was, with some of the strictest anti immigration and intermarriage laws in Europe (that has seen intermarried couples moving to Swedish Malmo at the rate of 60 per week), introduced by the right wing Liberal-Conservatives and the far right People's Party.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4276963.stm

However,many of the voters for those parties were rural, not Copenhageners. The city is still brimming with creativity, multiculturalism, forward thinking and liveability.


For Barcelona the weather is great, it has a beach, and it's the one city that is the byword for urban regeneration and planning, a model for cities round the world from Manchester to Qingdao. It also has its problems as with anywhere, rising expenses in the centre, overcrowding, noisiness and petty crime:

http://www.xbarcelona.com/e_intro.htm


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## Timon91 (Feb 9, 2008)

Postmodern Miss said:


> Timon - I didn't know Amsterdam had a beach nearby, thanks for the info! I'll def keep it in mind when I visit...


It's 25 km west, at Zandvoort. It is on the North Sea shore, and every half hour there is a train going straight there, almost all the way to the beach! Good luck with your choice :cheers:


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## Mekky II (Oct 29, 2003)

You will choose Copenhagen... 

Because about your fears :

Oresund : 3.7 million inhabitants
Sydney : 4.2 million inhabitants

The only thing to manage is the weather... But danish will welcome you very well, don't forget that the Princess of Denmark is from Australia !


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## Berris (Oct 8, 2005)

Postmodern Miss said:


> Berris -
> 
> Cool, it's nice to know that there's a sizable non-religious community as well...
> 
> ...


of course there's a very big non-religious community, especially among young people (I don't know any young person who goes to the Church often). Old people tend to go more, but even most of old people DON'T go. For 90% of people the Church is just the place where we go when there's some marriage, funeral...

It's your personal option. Among the 4 cities you said, I'd personally choose Barcelona or London. Copenhagen and Stockholm may be good for visiting, but I can't see myself living there. Personally I like more Barcelona and that's why I live here (I'm not from Barcelona, but from another place in Spain). London is bigger, more museums, lots of parks... but well... I prefer Barcelona's weather, you can go to the beach by subway, you also have museums... and Barcelona is a quite big city as well, you've got around 5 million people in the metro area... but of course, all this is just a personal opinion...


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

Berris said:


> And Copenhagen... winter -10 and summer 18...


Hold your horses mate. Copenhagen weather rarely goes below 0 degrees, and snow is very rare too. In the summer it's usually around 25 degrees. 

In fact, Copenhagen is very mild in the winter, more so than many southern and central European cities. I'm sure FREKI has some nice diagrams for you, as he usually does.

Stockholm is a bit colder in the winter, but not by very much.


BTW, Copenhagen and Stockholm don't quite compare to neither London nor Barcelona in terms of big city atmosphere and vibrancy...


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## Postmodern Miss (Sep 5, 2008)

Brummyboy- Your home city does sound quite interesting, I will have to visit sometime and see what it's like when you breathe the air and interact with the locals... I really liked your fourth photo - very beautiful old architecture (I usually prefer the contemporary structures, but that building and monument looks terrific).

In a 2003 poll of the UK's most bohemian cities, Birmingham came 7th, so that's not bad. Here were the top 10:

1 Manchester
2= Leicester and London
4 Nottingham
5 Bristol
6 Brighton and Hove
7 Birmingham
8 Coventry
9 Cardiff
10 Edinburgh 

(Source: http://www.postmoderncritic.com/gay-bohemians/ - this is also on my website, so check it out  )

the_spliff_fairy - 

I hear your endorsement of London, I'm interested in living there for some time at some point in my life as it has a lot of things going for it. 

Thank you for your thoughts on Denmark and Barcelona (I found the links very helpful as well), perhaps I should divide my time equally between two or three of these cities? Or relocate to one of them every six months? Anything is possible... 

No one has endorsed Stockholm yet - I wonder why that is? Is it seen as less progressive than it's southern Scandinavian cousin?

Mekky II -

By Oresund do you mean Copenhagen and Malmo together? I don't know the area very well as I've never been there...

Berris -

I guess I should have guessed, what with all the hip appearance of a lot of the young people!



> Copenhagen and Stockholm may be good for visiting, but I can't see myself living there.


Why is that? Any thoughts are helpful to me in getting impressions...

Staff -

Thanks for the thoughts on the weather, I hope Freki makes it to this thread! 



> BTW, Copenhagen and Stockholm don't quite compare to neither London nor Barcelona in terms of big city atmosphere and vibrancy...


Can you think of any specific factors that create this atmosphere in L/B and not in C/S? All this is fascinating...


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Any particular reason why you're not considering a German-speaking city like Berlin, Munich, Zürich or Vienna? I personally really like the German-speaking world in Europe as it tends to contain my favourite European cities.


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## Postmodern Miss (Sep 5, 2008)

Svartmetall - 

The cities I've selected here area all known for being amongst the most quirky, innovative and unconventional in the world. 

Berlin is actually a city I'd like to hear more about - how would you say it compares to these four in terms of progressiveness?

I haven't been to any of the four cities you mention, but apart from possibly Berlin I haven't heard of them being particularly gay-friendly or nonconformative in spirit. But perhaps you can tell me something I don't know?


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## Mekky II (Oct 29, 2003)

Postmodern Miss said:


> Mekky II -
> 
> By Oresund do you mean Copenhagen and Malmo together? I don't know the area very well as I've never been there...


Yes that is.


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## Mekky II (Oct 29, 2003)

Postmodern Miss said:


> Berlin is actually a city I'd like to hear more about.


The wiki is good here, because Berlin is a long story :lol: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin

But the most important : "Berlin has evolved into a global focal point for young individuals and artists attracted by a liberal lifestyle and modern zeitgeist."

This is the berliner touch :lol:


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Berris said:


> Copenhagen and Stockholm are too small


The least you could do was look it up before making a fool out of yourself! :lol:

Same scale by Live Maps:

















A larger populaton, doesn't mean a larger city - just more people crammed into small apartments! :cheers:


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ I think they mean by population rather than geographical area. If anything it's a disadvantage to sprawl endlessly (this from someone who lives in a horribly sprawling city).


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

Go to Madrid mate . I lived there for a year . Also lived in Barcelona and have travelled most of Europe .
Madrid has an un-equalled lifestyle and nightlife . It's underground system would vie to be the best in the world . Great architecture , shopping and culture . 
Only negative point it gets tremendously hot in summer even for an Aussie . Apart from that i can't think of a city that you wake up in the morning busting to hit it's bars or shops or lively streetlife as much as this awesome city .


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Svartmetall said:


> I think they mean by population rather than geographical area. If anything it's a disadvantage to sprawl endlessly (this from someone who lives in a horribly sprawling city).


I'm not a sprawl fan as such, but the larger the area a city covers the more street km's you have and that is what makes a city large in my view, not how many you can cram into the smallest posible spot..

I have been to Barcelona and liked it, and I have no interest to start a vs thread here - but if Mr _"Copenhagen winter is -10C" _Berris feel like getting a dose of reality I will gladly provide him with it! And Copenhagen can match Barcelona on every point worth comparing with the exception of temperatures ( but they sure get some rain downthere!!! )

There's so many dumb stereotypical views of how Denmark is - I can accept such elsewhere - but here on SSC the least you can expect is that people do some research before making claims - something Mr Berris should learn ASAP if he wishes to be taken serious! 

And when urban Barcelona can fit 3 times within urban Copenhagen the last I want to hear is him calling Copenhagen small! :sly:


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Oh, I agree that his views are completely nonsensical in certain aspects concerning Denmark, worry not! :cheers:

The UK and Denmark have always had a close affinity and so I guess I have less stereotypical views of your country than some. Heck, I come from the town where Carlsberg is brewed in England!


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Svartmetall said:


> The UK and Denmark have always had a close affinity and so I guess I have less stereotypical views of your country than some. Heck, I come from the town where Carlsberg is brewed in England!


Glad to hear it - espeically the beer part 

:cheers1:


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

Svartmetall said:


> Any particular reason why you're not considering a German-speaking city like Berlin, Munich, Zürich or Vienna? I personally really like the German-speaking world in Europe as it tends to contain my favourite European cities.


I would also recommend to check out these ones. Don't know about Munichs gay friendliness. Bavaria is rather conservative, I know that Munich is not the same as the rst of Bavaria, but I don't think it is as liberal as the other of the list.

About my City Zürich in short:
+ Clean, high standard of living
+ Nightlife
+ Gay friendly
+ multi cultural, internationality (no problems to live here only speaking English)
+ Liberal
+ Countryside, Landscape and the Lake (it partially makes up for not having a beach at the sea)
+ Low taxes

- Expensive 
- Filled up, expect for a heard search for an apartment. 
- Weather, rainy summers, foggy/gray winters. But it gets warm in summers, and in winters you can go to the mountains where it is sunny.
- Rather small compared to the other cities, but it is very central.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Bavaria might be quite conservative, but Munich tends to buck this trend. Although their gay parade seems to be a little lacklustre compared to the one in Köln, the city still has a healthy scene. 

I'd still say that Munich has a reputation for being quite liberal these days despite how it used to be.

I also can't believe I forgot Hamburg! Hamburg has a lively gay scene and is an affluent, very green liberal city.


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## goschio (Dec 2, 2002)

Munich is quite a snob city. Don't think that is what the thread opener is looking for.


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## el casanovas (Jun 1, 2008)

Barcelona is rather expensive (the inflation is high and the wages are low), 50% of the metro area is commieblocks with nothing around (so it's not that big, there's absolutely no reason to go there if you aren't a local or have friends there), and postmodernism is frowned upon (although people is more or less open, there are many key issues people get very very very absolute about, there's a very prominent modernist left-wing, also a political situation which doesn't really lend itself to people thinking "history has ended". Even the multiculturality you can find in Barcelona doesn't come from global communication, instead it's pushed forward by the authorities as a modernist ideal.) Also, it's not really a clean city, far from it. And joie de vivre? Which joie de vivre? We're an industrial city of hard-working people, very disappointed and very worried about a number of things. People born and raised in Barcelona are usually not care-free, bohemian types. That's just stupid. You'll find PLENTY of "pessimistic, uptight people". Basically most natives, especially middle-class and middle-upper class people. Plus nowadays with the soaring disemployment rates you won't find a happy city. If you care about the city, of course, if you just care about its international part then please ignore this.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great city, it's very gay-friendly, it's got great architecture, you won't need to learn Catalan if you don't want to because everyone can speak Spanish (you'll probably need to read both Catalan and Spanish, especially Catalan, though, for street signs and such, also knowing how to pronounce names), and you won't have to learn Spanish because there's all those touristic zones and those hip zones popular with expats (also young people more or less understand English), so it's an international city and there's lots of cool things to see and do. But I'd say it's not the BEST city if that's what you're looking for. I'm sure you'll like it, though!


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## Berris (Oct 8, 2005)

FREKI said:


> The least you could do was look it up before making a fool out of yourself! :lol:
> 
> Same scale by Live Maps:
> 
> ...


ok man, stop laughing at me ok, I went to Copenhagen and I can say Barcelona is much bigger than it, maybe not surface, but population and "big-city-ambient". Copenhagen looks just as a normal medium city, the 3rd day I didn't know where to go. So I know the city, shut up your mouth now.


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## Berris (Oct 8, 2005)

FREKI said:


> I'm not a sprawl fan as such, but the larger the area a city covers the more street km's you have and that is what makes a city large in my view, not how many you can cram into the smallest posible spot..
> 
> I have been to Barcelona and liked it, and I have no interest to start a vs thread here - but if Mr _"Copenhagen winter is -10C" _Berris feel like getting a dose of reality I will gladly provide him with it! And Copenhagen can match Barcelona on every point worth comparing with the exception of temperatures ( but they sure get some rain downthere!!! )
> 
> ...


hey boy, -10 or -2, what's the difference, it's the same sh*t, I just meant it's a cold place, and that's it. Copenhagen can't match Barcelona, Barcelona is a bigger city (populated if you want) with more things to do and see. Only in the Barcelona metro area there are almost the same number of people living than in the whole Denmark. I know both cities so you shut up. I don't think you had to answer like that. Shut up.


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## DiggerD21 (Apr 22, 2004)




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## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

Berris is a young friendly man with a southern european temperament...:|


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## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

An interesting article from Spiegel Spezial about "second citys"...it's about Barcelona, Copenhagen and Amsterdam. In German:
http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/ima...08/06/21/ROSPC200800400660071.PDF&thumb=false


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## caminerillo (Jul 30, 2008)

Barcelona or London would be the best options. 

Barcelona is the major city in the european Mediterranium Sea, the capital of the Region of Catalonia and a very multicultural city. Both Barcelona and Sidney has hosted an Olympics in the last years. Barcelona is a very beatyfull city, and is very well conected with Madrid by the Air-Bridge and the High Speed Train. 

But, Barcelona Airport has not direct fly to Sidney, that's the worst for you.


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## Berris (Oct 8, 2005)

ØlandDK said:


> An interesting article from Spiegel Spezial about "second citys"...it's about Barcelona, Copenhagen and Amsterdam. In German:
> http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/ima...08/06/21/ROSPC200800400660071.PDF&thumb=false


yes, maybe both Barcelona and Copenhagen can be considered as "second cities". Probably that's because we don't have many multinationals and we don't have political power, while Copenhagen is the capital of a country. But I think 99% of people will think like me when saying that the feeling of big city is bigger in Barcelona, maybe not in surface as Copenhagen is full of houses as 100 villages together, but in looking, ambient and also population. That's just what I meant when I said that Copenhagen is too small for me, I thought it was clear that "big" and "small" also referred to that, not only the built-up area... and more if 70% of that built-up area is full of houses as in a village. Ok, of course I don't mean that's bad!!! Just it's not the best thing to create urban feeling, and I was talking about that. Everything alright?


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

FREKI said:


> I'm not a sprawl fan as such, but the larger the area a city covers the more street km's you have and that is what makes a city large in my view, not how many you can cram into the smallest posible spot..


I guess this means Atlanta is bigger than Tokyo then


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## Pickle33 (Feb 7, 2007)

Have you thought of Brighton on the South Coast of England. Its the gay capital of the UK and has beautiful regency architecture. Its a bohemian/artisan mecca. It has a popn of around 250,000, but its only 40 mins by commuter train to central London....its often referred to as "little London". Its also the sunniest place in the UK. You'll not find a more gay friendly/artistic place anywhere else in Europe. Brighton is also close to cross-Channel ferries and Gatwick Airport...most of the tolly-dollies at Gatwick call the town "Terminal 3" since they all live there, adding to the multicultural gay friendly mix.


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## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

Berris said:


> yes, maybe both Barcelona and Copenhagen can be considered as "second cities". Probably that's because we don't have many multinationals and we don't have political power, while Copenhagen is the capital of a country. But I think 99% of people will think like me when saying that the feeling of big city is bigger in Barcelona, maybe not in surface as Copenhagen is full of houses as 100 villages together, but in looking, ambient and also population. That's just what I meant when I said that Copenhagen is too small for me, I thought it was clear that "big" and "small" also referred to that, not only the built-up area... and more if 70% of that built-up area is full of houses as in a village. Ok, of course I don't mean that's bad!!! Just it's not the best thing to create urban feeling, and I was talking about that. Everything alright?


Don't really know what you are talking about. Didn't read most of your other posts. I just wanted to share a article with people.


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

_"London is all too similar to Sydney"_

It is? I've always thought of them as being very different, yet both
quite exciting in their own way.


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

monkeyronin said:


> Simple - it's denser. And when talking about city size, we typically use population as that measure, not land area


You said it had 4.3mil in it's urban area - something I'm still waiting to see :lol:



monkeyronin said:


> Wow...thats just sad...you have to deliberately lie to make it out to be that your city is bigger?


What the heck are you talking about? :sly:

I couldn't even fit Copenhagen within the Barcelona area.. all of Køge bay wasn't shown just as the entire northern area was cut off too, where Barcelona was primarily mountains and ocean..



monkeyronin said:


> The images are on a different scale (Barcelona's being from a higher altitude)...though I see you conveniently left out any indication of that scale. :|


No they are not, but you are right that I should have added the scale - so here's another set ( used Google Earth this time for more detail, making it even more clear )

Barcelona and Copenhagen both at 26,03km

















If you refuse to believe this one too I surgest you try comparing for yourself - as I said programs such as Google Earth, Google Maps, Live Local and Live Maps makes it very easy...

The areas shown have respectively 1,6mil and 1,1mil - so feel ever so free to include 90% of Catalonia to Barcelona if you feel like it - just be aware that such would be like me added all the people in a 200km radius too :lol:

An urban area stops when nature begins, and if you want to add more people than the 1,6mil to Barcelona you have to remove a butt load of mountains! kay:


*Now let's please leave it as this as VS threads are banned here on SSC!*

I like Barcelona, it's a really nice city and I certainly don't want to bad mouth it, I just wanted to clear up to Mr Berris that the stereotypical crap like size and temperature he have posted have nothing to do with reality..

Copenhagen isn't especially large, nor does it have especially many people living there - but the same goes for Barcelona, that is just how it is.. personally I think the size we share is a good size - not too much, not to little - juuuuust right


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## Anderson Geimz (Mar 29, 2008)

FREKI don't be ridiculous.
Barcelona is a city of over 5 million and Copenhagen has 1,8 million.
Don't know what you are trying to prove but that much is evident to anyone with an interest in cities and population (you will find many on this site).


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## goschio (Dec 2, 2002)

LtBk said:


> What conservative attitudes?


IMO Australia is more conservative than most of Europe. Especially in religious issues.
Europe is probably the most liberal place on this planet.


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Anderson Geimz said:


> FREKI don't be ridiculous.
> Barcelona is a city of over 5 million and Copenhagen has 1,8 million.
> Don't know what you are trying to prove but that much is evident to anyone with an interest in cities and population (you will find many on this site).


Okay, I'll answer one more - but it will be the last as I don't want this thread locked - it would be pointless and unfair to the thread maker who made an interesting thread..

*For anyone wanting to debate this further feel very free to PM me or link to a part of SSC where we can have such a thread without it violating the local rules!*

Now Mr Geimz - Barcelona is NOT a city of 5mil - the 5mil area you are thinking of is the Catalonian region "Àmbit metropolità de Barcelona" who do translates to "Barcelona Metro" but isn't it's metro - by normal city metro terms Barcelona Metro have a population of 3,150,380 devided over 36 municipals.. ( see link )

If we look at the Àmbit metropolità de Barcelona area you can see just how large an area it is - it's the blue area:










Now the dark blue area is the area where Barcelona city is located - an urban area surrounded by sea and mountains.. an area with 1.595.110 people and the actual Barcelona City..

Now if we take a closer look at Barcelona we get an urban area with several districts and 1.595.110 people :










*And that gives us a city size of: 1,59mil* roughly 400.000 more than Copenhagen City ( and around the same population as Copenhagen's urban area by the "50m" deffinition )

Now if we look at metro ( as in normal city metro's not a regional name ) Copenhagen has 3,583,842 and of those 2,431,145 is located in Denmark ( 2.130.541 on the island of Zealand ) as we share our metro with Sweden - see "Oresund region" 

This means that Copenhagen's metro is actually larger than Barcelona's by some 400.000 overall and 600.000 less than Barcelona in the Danish part alone..

Links: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Districts_of_Barcelona
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_Region_of_Barcelona
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresund_Region

Now there's no doubt Barcelona City is denser than Copenhagen City - I never refused that, nor do I refuse it has more people in the city part, but the figures people are using ( 5mil :lol: ) is crazy..

Like it or not but Copenhagen and Barcelona are simular in size - Copenhagen a bit larger, Barcelona a bit more densely populated..

Now this will be the last large comparison post from my side - I'd love to continue elsewhere if any local forum area allows for such, or over PM, but not here as it's not allowed!

I hope Berris learned a little and won't post dumb troll posts like that again and I hope others learned a little about the two cities too and hope that we'll see less stereotypical posts in the future about my city.. ( just because people don't know it doesn't mean you should make stuff up!  )


I'll also like to make it clear that I like Barcelona I will recommend everyone who haven't already to go there - no ill feelings what so ever - it's a nice place! :yes:


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## Pickle33 (Feb 7, 2007)

goschio said:


> IMO Australia is more conservative than most of Europe. Especially in religious issues.
> Europe is probably the most liberal place on this planet.


I think that Aus and Europe have a very similar atitude towards religion. The cities are secular and the rural areas are more conservative. The UK is one of the most secular societies in the World...perhaps because the state religion (Cof E) was only invented to allow an old pervert of a king to divorce and marry his young bit of totty. We have gay rights enshrined in the laws of the EU and many EU countires (incl the UK) allow gay marriage. Its all good!


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## Koen Acacia (Apr 17, 2007)

Pickle33 said:


> I think that Aus and Europe have a very similar atitude towards religion. *The cities are secular and the rural areas are more conservative.* The UK is one of the most secular societies in the World...perhaps because the state religion (Cof E) was only invented to allow an old pervert of a king to divorce and marry his young bit of totty. We have gay rights enshrined in the laws of the EU and many EU countires (incl the UK) allow gay marriage. Its all good!


Sounds a bit like the US then. Secular cities on the coast with conservative heartland in the middle.


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## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

Anderson Geimz said:


> How are CPH and AMS "second cities"?


They are second cities compared to cities like London, Paris, Istanbul, Moscow, Madrid etc.

It is not ment contry-wise but on a european scale.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

Quit the Copenhagen vs. Barcelona crap already. It's obvious that Barcelona is quite a lot bigger than Copenhagen (incl. Malmö). As far as size and big city-atmosphere go, Barcelona has the obvious edge.


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## Pickle33 (Feb 7, 2007)

I've lived in both Sydney and London and can say that London is far more hectic and fast paced than Sydney....which isn't a good or a bad thing, just a different way of life. If you're looking for an easy escape from urban life or wanting to chill out on a beach after work then London is not for you. London has parks and plenty of outdoor life, but not to the same extent as Sydney.

I loved Sydney for its freshness, walking around with the smell of gum trees in the air and warm breezes blowing off the harbour. If you want a change of life and to pick up the pace a bit and love to walk around streets that bustle with life and where history and culture seep through every crack in the pavement, then London is what you're looking for. There's a funkiness and urbanity to London that I've only ever experienced in NYC. They're dirty old b1tches of cities, but they are so energising and stimulating.

The one thing I would say is that if you really want to enjoy London to the max you're gonna have to be able to get reasonably well paid employment fast, which isn't necessarily an issue depending on what line of work you're looking for. If you want to "bum around" and chill out on a shoestring then I wouldn't touch London with a barge poll unless you have a lot of savings. This also applies to Ireland and most of the Scandinjavian countries as well....you really need money in your pocket to make the most out of life.

If you want to eek out your money and chill out before launching into a new life then head for southern Europe, at least in the first instance. I wouldn't underestimate how much of an issue the language thing is. Its extremely difficult to learn a language, even when you immerse yourself in it and jump in with both feet. The idea that you can make a life for yourself, on your own, in a non-english speaking country and be blissfully happy is a bit of a fantasay spread by people who are permanently stoned and live in squallour in stone shacks in Tuscanny.

The reason I mentioned Brighton is that it seems to me to be a reasonable compromise between Sydney and London and many of the things you are looking for in a place, in terms of arts, liberalism, a funky urban life, history, culture and warm sunny days and balmy evenings on the beach can be found there. London is only a short train journey away, so you get all that as well.


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## goschio (Dec 2, 2002)

Funky urban life LOL
Biggest lie ever.


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## Stifler (Apr 11, 2006)

I guess Barcelona, London and Berlin fit perfectly with what you are looking for. Justme's answer was extremely complete and spot on, so I don't feel the need to add anything.

I haven't been to Copenhagen and Stockholm (yet), so I cannot judge them properly. Obviously, the scale is different from the others, so they are hardly comparable.


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## MonsieurAquilone (May 12, 2007)

In terms of life and vibrancy, Barcelona is definitely a happening city, as I'm sure you can attest.

One thing you need to take into consideration if you were to choose Barcelona is that it would be useful to learn Catalan. Obviously you can get by with Spanish and indeed English but it may be helpful to add some Catalan lessons to your 'new city' inventory. It will help make assimilation easier, from my view.

Having been to Berlin and Copenhagen, I can also attest to their vibrancy and relative matching of your particular desires in a city - so I don't think I'm adding much there. I hope you make a good choice.


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## zazo (Dec 5, 2005)

Hey girl! SPANISH IS NOT SPOKEN in Barcelona, so if you want Spain for that reason i would tell you not to move to that city (many problems because of the language)


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## Pickle33 (Feb 7, 2007)

goschio said:


> Funky urban life LOL
> Biggest lie ever.


Care to ellaborate, or are you too busy f*cking yer sister?


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## MIBO (Aug 20, 2008)

^^ Spanish it is spoken in Barcelona, I'm Spaniard, believe me I know what I'm talking about. Catalonian and Spanish are both use.

Just saw this thread and...
I wanted to tell you that Bulgarian citizens have the right to live in other European Union countries BUT, they are given residence, not working permit.
This is actually done because many western European countries were afraid about massive immigration from Romania or Bulgaria.

About being English teacher in Europe, you would generally need a degree in English Language/Literature in order to find a job easily.

About cities....Barcelona is a great city. I would also recommend you Madrid, which in my opinion is one of the gayest cities in Europe. It's a city where anything is possible....very bohemian, multicultural, open-minded...
But.....no beach :lol:


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## Berris (Oct 8, 2005)

zazo said:


> Hey girl! SPANISH IS NOT SPOKEN in Barcelona, so if you want Spain for that reason i would tell you not to move to that city (many problems because of the language)


what the hell are you saying, all the foreigners CAN'T speak Catalan here and they have no problems. Don't lie.


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## Berris (Oct 8, 2005)

FREKI said:


> The areas shown have respectively 1,6mil and 1,1mil - so feel ever so free to include 90% of Catalonia to Barcelona if you feel like it - just be aware that such would be like me added all the people in a 200km radius too :lol:


the area showed for Barcelona has around 3 million people. A semi-circle of around 40km around Barcelona and you get 5 million. 
2,600,000 inhabitants in 120-130 sq km
4,900,000 inhabitants in 3,200 sq km
5,300,000 in 4,200 sq km (third belt, and the population of the whole Denmark in only 10% of the Danish territory)

We are the 6th most populated metro area in the EU. Full stop.


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## Stifler (Apr 11, 2006)

zazo said:


> Hey girl! SPANISH IS NOT SPOKEN in Barcelona, so if you want Spain for that reason i would tell you not to move to that city (many problems because of the language)


Don't lie, please. 100% of the people in Barcelona are fluent in Spanish and most of them have it as their mother tongue. Of course, it is also appreciated if you learn some Catalan too.



MIBO said:


> I wanted to tell you that Bulgarian citizens have the right to live in other European Union countries BUT, they are given residence, not working permit.


In Spain the moratorium ends next 31th Dec, so there won't be restrictions for those citizens in the future.


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## Postmodern Miss (Sep 5, 2008)

*Peshu* - 

Thanks for the input, I haven't been to Madrid but you make it sound it incredible... will add it in, with Berlin and possibly Cologne (I don't know enough about it yet). 

*earthJoker* - 

Zurich is an option to consider, I guess, but I don't think it will be the kind of contender the others are... it sounds lovely in its own way. 

*Svartmetall* - 

Hmm, Berlin I can take into account, but I'm not sure about Cologne, Munich and Hamburg - I simply haven't heard enough about them, which makes me wonder about how progressive they really are. That said, I'm not in the area, and I hadn't heard much about Barcelona before I went there either...

*el_casanovas* - 



> there are many key issues people get very very very absolute about


Oh, I'm used to that... I guess a good question would be: *which is the most postmodern-friendly city?*



> Even the multiculturality you can find in Barcelona doesn't come from global communication, instead it's pushed forward by the authorities as a modernist ideal.


What do you mean?

*Berris* - 

Why do you say that there is more to do and see in Barcelona than Copenhagen? Can anyone else comment on this? )

*OlandDK* - 

Thanks for the article, it's times like these I wish I knew more languages... I only do Bulgarian and some Japanese. 

*Caminerillo* - 



> Barcelona Airport has not direct fly to Sidney, that's the worst for you


Actually, that doesn't bother me at all... I've spent enough time in Sydney to last a good, long while, and when I want to return all I have to do is catch a connecting flight - or, better yet, do a road trip to a bigger hub!

*Pickle33* - 

I knew I should have gone to Brighton instead of Stratford-upon-Avon (although I loved it)... I've heard great things about it, and the Taj Mahal-inspired Pavillion looks divine. Well, I'll dedicate some time to getting to know it better on my next European trip... along with Copenhagen, Malmo, Stockholm, Berlin, Cologne and Madrid... It's a good thing I'm saving already! ;o)

The only thing about Brighton is that it is quite a while away from London... that said, I won't find that kind of proximity to London anywhere else, and it's a fabulous place to look for work with musicians. So many factors to take into account for each place!

*FREKI* -



> The Swede's accent sounds better if you ask me


Does this have anything to do with their more musical intonation, or something else, do you think?



> If the weather is important to you


It is important, but not as important as the culture of each place... which leads me to: _How do the Scandinavians see the Spanish, in general, and vice versa? What are the major cultural differences? _ (I hope this question provides some insights. ;oD )

Thanks so much for the links related to work, I checked them all out today, and found a few jobs to apply for! ) And if all else fails I can just go there and get a waitressing job to start with (apparently Denmark currently has a shortage of wait staff). 

Thanks for the info on the food, as long as they have sandwiches and Asian food I'll be fine... pizza and Italian is great too... regarding the Mexican food, I hope it tastes better than the Mexican food in Australia? I didn't know how delicious Mexican and South American could be until I went to California...

*earthJoker* - 

Barcelona is bi-lingual, and Spanish is very popular, so I think it would be a great place to learn Spanish... 

*DiggerD21* -

Well, I was born in Tripoli, have Bulgarian parents, grew up in Sofia and Sydney, have a Californian accent, have seen more of Asia than any other continent, and am now set to move to Western Europe, lol. 

Can you tell me more about the Street Parade?

*sk* -

I don't think Budapest meets my needs in terms of bohemianism, gay-friendliness and progressiveness... but thanks. 

*ranny_fash* - 

I'm guessing Derby is in the UK? If so, it didn't even make the 2003 Bohemian list, so...

*LtBk* - 

You know, sexism, racism, homophobia, xenophobia... they don't call it the 'Old World' for nothing... though i suppose I should have said old-fashioned instead of conservative

Onto page 5... 

;o)


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Anderson Geimz said:


> Barcelona is at least twice the size of Copenhagen in any apples to apples comparison.


Except urban area :|


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

goschio said:


> Berlin my suit you the best. Its full of alternatives, hippies and other liberals.


Those photos aren't a very fair representation of the city, Goschio! You just really don't like Berlin.


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## Fabrega (Jun 22, 2008)

If i was you i would take a trip to you top 3 cities before actually moving to one, it migth be expensive, but you would defetnitly know that you made the rigth choice, and the one that makes you happy. Barcelona sounds good, beach, out the box architecture good nightlife style, really dont know about the gay stuff doh, but i know Madrid has a part of the city were gay people hang out, by the way it was awesome when i went there 2 years ago, you migth wanna consider barcelona plus they are building a bullet train to barcelona-madrid 2:30 mins if you wanna change city lifestyle for a weekend just catch the train 2 great cities for 1.


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Copenhagen's Amager Strand:

Brdige to Sweden









Malmo City ( and Turning Torso ) in the horizon


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## cuica (Apr 8, 2007)

*Think Outside the Box?*

What about Perth or Canberra?

Just joking.

I am going to suggest Buenos Aires.

Learn Spanish? Check.
Gay friendly? Check. (Look for a Wong Kar Wai movie called, what else, "Buenos Aires".)
Asian food? Check. (Lots of Chinese/Korean/Japanese immigrants.)
Not too religious? Check. (Too far from the Vatican to be stuffy.)
Gorgeous women with legs wrapped around handsome men? Check. (It's called the Tango, have you heard of it?)
Direct flight from Australia? Check.
Simple class divides? Yes, the have and have-nots... like everywhere else? 
Same world view as Australia? Check. (Same upside-down southern hemisphere world view anyway.)

The only downside? People are uptight (what do you expect from the inventors of the Tango) and pessimistic (e.g. one look at Riquelme's face tells the story).

But hey, no place is perfect.

Regards.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Berris said:


> ^^ and warmer? Paris isn't much warmer than London, right?


Unfortunely the weather is as bad, cloudy, rainy, rainy, rainy, cloudy, rainy, sunny. :lol:


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

Postmodern Miss said:


> *Peshu* -
> 
> Thanks for the input, I haven't been to Madrid but you make it sound it incredible... will add it in, with Berlin and possibly Cologne (I don't know enough about it yet).


I was never terribly impressed with Cologne. I was looking forward to it when I first went there, but found a very architecturally run of the mill city. It's big highlight is the Cathedral which to be honest doesn't sound terribly exciting. It maybe on the Rhein river, but it effectively turns it's back to it, at least from a way you are experienced off, with how Australian cities make the most of their waterfronts. In fact, the best view of the city is from the otherside of the river and it's still a muddy track there.

The city does have a big carnival once a year, but unlike the Love Parade, it is quite a conservative and traditional one. People wear silly hats and listen to oom-pah music. Just watching it on TV makes me cringe.

The pubs are nice, and I like the unique tradition they have with the waiter staff walking around with tiny glasses of beer and just dropping them on all the tables. But a city needs more than nice pubs.

Personally, I would give Cologne a miss. It's great for other people, but from what you wrote and where you come from, I think you will tire of it rather quickly.

Hamburg on the other hand is a different story. It is a great port city and quite a beautiful one both architecturally and geographically. It does have Germany's most famous nightlife and is a very lively place for it's size. There are some lovely beaches not too far away on the Baltic sea which is a great way to spend a sunny summer weekend (and the Baltic really surprised me on how beautiful it is when I first visited)

But I still think if you were to choose a German city, Berlin would be more cup of tea for your interests and lifestyle. It's not a perfect city but a fascinating and exciting one. And it does serve the artistic circle better than most places in this world.

On another topic, as far as when you suggested that Europe was quite conservative, I found this to be the complete opposite. It was a breath of fresh air moving here from Australia. Australia may seem more modern and funky because of it's architecture, but it's culture is much more conservative than most places in Western Europe.

Also, finally, I would take heed of what someone else wrote about your Bulgarian passport. Yes, Bulgaria may be in the EU now, but it is not a full member as far as travel rights go. There maybe problems with some country's for you to get a work visa. Only the main 15 countries of Western Europe currently have complete freedom of work and travel within the EU. The others are on a "probationary" period to help prevent mass migration to the more wealthier countries. Some countries, like the UK was far more open to allow immigrants from the new 10 countries, but as so many have moved there they are now talking about restrictions as well. You should check out on the Bulgarian passport webpage. Or each countries immigration website (or even the EU web pages)


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## Postmodern Miss (Sep 5, 2008)

*Taller, Better* -



> I've always thought of [London and Sydney] as being very different, yet both quite exciting in their own way.


I guess if I wanted to I could come up with a list of differences. But I didn't experience the slightest smidgen of culture shock at during my 10 days in London... I'm still not sure whether that's a good or bad thing. ) 

*Pickle33* -



> The UK is one of the most secular societies in the World


This makes it very attractive to me... 



> We have gay rights enshrined in the laws of the EU and many EU countires (incl the UK) allow gay marriage.


Actually, the UK hasn't legalised same-sex marriage as such (yet) - the six countries that have are The Netherlands, Belgium, South Africa, Canada, Spain and Norway (effective Jan 1, 2009). Then there's California and Massachusetts in the USA. The gay marriage and adoption thing really draws me to Barcelona as well... though I'm sure that Sweden, Denmark (which was the first country to allow civil unions) and Germany will follow their neighbours' example without too much delay. 



> If you're looking for an easy escape from urban life or wanting to chill out on a beach after work then London is not for you


I like my urban life hard to escape from most of the time... I don't go to the beach that often either, but I like having it around because it purifies the city air. 



> If you want a change of life and to pick up the pace a bit and love to walk around streets that bustle with life and where history and culture seep through every crack in the pavement, then London is what you're looking for. There's a funkiness and urbanity to London that I've only ever experienced in NYC. They're dirty old b1tches of cities, but they are so energising and stimulating.


I tend to find Sydney too laid-back so I think I could find myself very happy in London. I love the way the old buildings is adorned with shiny, colourful shop fronts (it's a bit pomo), the splashes or red all around, the dainty streets choked by large traffic, the confidence of the natives, the multiculturalism, the big city feel... London can be as innovative and glamorous as it is old-fashioned and dilapidated. 

Thanks for your comments. )

*MIBO* -



> Madrid, which in my opinion is one of the gayest cities in Europe. It's a city where anything is possible....very bohemian, multicultural, open-minded...


Ooo, sounds very interesting... 

*Berris* -

Your pics of Barcelona made me salivate... D 
Casa Battlo is one of my favourite buildings in the world, and Parque Guell is amazing...

Anyone want to post up more pics of any of the cities I'm considering?

*Svartmetall* -

Thanks for the tips, again. I guess I hadn't paid enough attention to Germany. 



> The moniker "old world" simply refers to the age rather than the societal viewpoints.


I'm probably influenced by my parents and family who come from Bulgaria, and are very prejudiced and set in their ways.

*FREKI* -

I realise those are very general questions, thanks for working with them in an interesting way. ) 

Yes, I notice that the Spanish like to do things in groups, there's less of a sense of personal space, and they're more family and tradition loving... I think culturally I'm more in tune with the Scandinavians, Germans of UK-ers. That said, I loved Barcelona as a package. 



> the second you have a Danish adresse getting a job shouldn't be a problem


Hmm, does a hotel constitute a Danish address?

And I'll be glad to leave vegemite behind - ew! :lol:

*earthJoker* -

I'll have to go to Zurich to catch the Street Parade!

*DiggerD21* -

Thanks for the very informative look at Hamburg and Cologne

*Blackpool88* -



> If you're so liberal why are you so intolerant of religion?


Because it encroaches on my liberal, postmodern values? I have no use for metanarratives (universalising tales about the world), especially if they are used to justify stuff like homophobia and misogyny. 

Why am I not considering Paris? It's the people - they're not very pleasant, are they? I was there in June and I like visiting, but I wouldn't live there...

*Minato_ku* -

Why do you say 'sumimasen' (sorry) in your signature?

*Berris* -



> Paris isn't much warmer than London, right?


Not much, no. 

*Goschio* -

You really don't like Berlin, do you? Or is it a coincidence that half of those pics have garbage in them?

*Fabrega* -

Excellent advice, that's what I was thinking myself... the tricky thing will be deciding places to see first, because they all sound fab. 

*FREKI* -

That looks like a very decent beach! ) And how cool that you can see the Turning Torso building in Malmo... I found out about it when I was compiling a gallery of postmodern architecture for my 'I Love Postmodernism' group on Facebook. (And if anyone here wants to be my friend on Facebook, just look up 'Epiphanie Bloom'! ;o) )

*Cuica* -

Haha, your first suggestion made me laugh... according to Bill Bryson, he prefers to think of Canberra as 'The Gateway to Everywhere Else'. As for Perth, I can't say whether that is more or less boring because I simply wouldn't go... (sorry if anyone from those cities is reading this!)

I didn't know Buenos Aires had lots of Asian immigrants, that's very cool! I didn't know who that sportsman was either until I looked him up. I'll have to visit, and see if I like it enough to consider a longer engagement with it, however I do tend to prefer developed countries. Thanks for the suggestion. )

*Just Me* -

You've convinced me to leave Cologne off the list, though perhaps I'll visit it while I'm in the area. 



> [A]s far as when you suggested that Europe was quite conservative, I found this to be the complete opposite. It was a breath of fresh air moving here from Australia. Australia may seem more modern and funky because of it's architecture, but it's culture is much more conservative than most places in Western Europe.


I agree that many places in Western Eu are more progressive than most of Australia, then again, Sydney sets pretty high standards for liberalism and progressiveness itself. I sometimes forget that I'm in the most forward-thinking area of the continent. 

Thanks for reminding me to double-check the situation with the Bulg passport, English teaching is one of the areas where the restrictions are waived, not sure about waitressing. But hopefully I'll be able to get a better (hence more skilled, which is always seen as desirable) job if I look extensively before I leave, and the people I work for will take care of all of the paperwork for me. 

Thanks again for your in-depth feedback! D

Well, *ppl*, 

I've decided that I am going to apply for jobs in all these places (that is, Copenhagen, Barcelona, Stockholm, London, Berlin, Madrid and Hamburg, and maybe Brighton) see which one I get first! D Once I'm there I can explore the rest of the cities and see if one pulls me in more than another... 

I've learned a lot from the information you have shared with me, and I'd love to read more, so feel free to keep it going! :banana: :cheers:


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## Koen Acacia (Apr 17, 2007)

If you're going to job-hunt, perhaps eures will come in handy. It's got a pretty big set of vacancies all across the EU. Cheers, and good luck!


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## Berris (Oct 8, 2005)

Fabrega said:


> you migth wanna consider barcelona plus they are building a bullet train to barcelona-madrid 2:30 mins if you wanna change city lifestyle for a weekend just catch the train 2 great cities for 1.


it's working since months ago


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## Pickle33 (Feb 7, 2007)

@ postmodern Miss

We have Civil Partnerships in the UK which have the same status in law as a civil marriage. A couple of my friends have done the whole ceremony thing; you can do whatever you want whithin reason as long as you carry out the legal formalities. I'm having my civil partneship ceremony in October with family and friends present at the registry office and a reception afterwards. Civil Partnerships were legalised by parliament in 2006 and give same sex couples the same rights as married couples in terms of adoption, inheritaence and tax breaks. 

Personally I think your mad to leave such an amazing City. I LOVED Sydney, but could only stay for 1 year because of visa restrictions. Aus/UK culture is similar in many respects, but there are enough differences to keep you on your feet and give you that sense of change you are yearning for. One of my best friends left Sydney to come and live in the UK and she loves it, but she obviously misses home quite a bit from time to time....but she gets regular parcels with Tim Tams and Cherry Ripes in. She's open minded and has made a good life for herself here and says she has had far better career opportunities in the UK in her line of work than in Aus, but she intends to retire back to Aus when its time. If you're line of work involves music, then I can't think of a better place than London to pursue this line of work. You sound like a really open-minded person who would probably fit in anywhere. Whatever you decide...good luck.


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## N1V1 (Apr 20, 2008)

Just choose for Gent. Blegian's most cozy city. There's also a lot to see (historical) and to do (events and pubs).


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## zazo (Dec 5, 2005)

Oh yeah, spanish is spoken in Barcelona, but always i've been there i've been problems in some places, and in political terms everything is changing, even in the university, catalan is getting higher in everywhere of the city, so if you wanna move there ONLY BECAUSE OF THE LANGUAGE, (because that's what you've said about Barcelona) don't move, in a future you'll have problems, go to Valencia, Málaga,or even Madrid, but taking your point of view don't go there, if the point of view were that the city is fantastic, hot every year, good architecture, etc, i'd say move there now, but about the language, no.


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## Berris (Oct 8, 2005)

zazo said:


> Oh yeah, spanish is spoken in Barcelona, but always i've been there i've been problems in some places, and in political terms everything is changing, even in the university, catalan is getting higher in everywhere of the city, so if you wanna move there ONLY BECAUSE OF THE LANGUAGE, (because that's what you've said about Barcelona) don't move, in a future you'll have problems, go to Valencia, Málaga,or even Madrid, but taking your point of view don't go there, if the point of view were that the city is fantastic, hot every year, good architecture, etc, i'd say move there now, but about the language, no.


You don't have idea of what you are talking about. Don't lie. I live here and I know what I'm talking about. I live with a Swedish girl, she speaks Spanish 90%, no Catalan. She has no problems, she's working. Also with a British guy, Spanish 40%, no Catalan, he's working. I work with a lot of foreigners (Nepal, Japan, South Korea, Argentina, Colombia, Italy, Portugal, Bulgaria, Ecuador, Panama...), they DON'T speak Catalan, they are all working at the airport with me. Catalan is not getting higher in Barcelona, it's the same as always or getting down, so don't talk about you have no idea please.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

DiggerD21 said:


> What? The mayor of Cologne is also gay?


Any German mayors out there who aren't gay?


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## el casanovas (Jun 1, 2008)

Berris said:


> You don't have idea of what you are talking about. Don't lie. I live here and I know what I'm talking about. I live with a Swedish girl, she speaks Spanish 90%, no Catalan. She has no problems, she's working. Also with a British guy, Spanish 40%, no Catalan, he's working. I work with a lot of foreigners (Nepal, Japan, South Korea, Argentina, Colombia, Italy, Portugal, Bulgaria, Ecuador, Panama...), they DON'T speak Catalan, they are all working at the airport with me. Catalan not getting higher in Barcelona, it's the same as always or getting down, so don't talk about you have no idea please.


It is NOT going down. There's been lots of inmigration in the 2000-2007 period, and this HAS brought the numbers down (about 5% less Catalan) but intergenerational transmission has always been on the rise (that is to say, there are much more Catalan speakers with Spanish speaking parents than Spanish speakers with Catalan speaking parents, and the proportion has never stopped growing), and inmigration is decreasing. Even in areas where immigrants are on the majority, the amount of Catalan speakers is not inexistant (Ciutat Vella: 30%, Nou Barris 20% - compare with St. Gervasi which is over 60%, Les Corts which is around 60%, Sants 51%, Eixample 55%, St. Andreu 53%, Poblenou 55%, no need to go on.) Also, do you go to university? It's not that uncommon to find foreign Catalan speakers there. Not the most common thing, but you're bound to meet a few. What is certainly not uncommon is foreign students not asking the teacher to speak Spanish once they're used to our sociolinguistic situation.

I agree that reading/understanding Catalan is more than enough to get around (at least knowing the key words so you can read street signs or understand official announcements). Even though I'd say it's rather unpolite (that's up for debate, indeed), you can ignore Catalan if you want to. But it's not disappearing from the city. There's no need to lie about Spanish, but there's no need to lie about Catalan either.


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

staff said:


> Any German mayors out there who aren't gay?


The mayor of Frankfurt is female^^


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## Cymen (Jan 27, 2003)

ØlandDK said:


> They are second cities compared to cities like London, Paris, Istanbul, Moscow, Madrid etc.
> 
> It is not ment contry-wise but on a european scale.


Amsterdam is a "6 point" world city. That's better then Istanbul. 
Your opinion is nice, but Amsterdam is worlds 10th business city which is better then Madrid and Moscow. 


Anyway TS, about Amsterdam:
the multiculturalism
Some people even say Amsterdam was the first true multicultural city in the world. (I meanings of were other cultures accepted each other and live in the same city) Only in the last 30 years a weird type of muslim community tends to spoil it a bit.

the gay-friendliness, 
Today gays in Amsterdam are mostly ordinary people who have mostly straight friends. The gay community has integrated and therefore looks vanished, gay night-life hardly improved the last decades. Other then a weid type of muslim community gays are fully accepted. 

the Asian food (esp. Thai and Vietnamese), 
Lot's of Thai and Chinese restaurants in Amsterdam. Not so much Vietnamese, but the Chinese are more then a full replacement (and I have been to Vietnam...)

the cleanliness (for a large city, anyway),
For a big city, outside the crowded tourist center Amsterdam is relatively clean.

the lack of pretentiousness, 
Amsterdam has a lot of small, not a few a big. I think that's one of the best qualities of Amsterdam

the warm weather, 
If climate is really important, Amsterdam is not your place to be. The summers are not great, it rains a lot and freezes in winter.

the proximity of the beach, 
The beach is like 20 minutes by train. However, good weather is only a season of 5 months and max 2 months (in days) you can stay on the beach. However, if you like windy walks on the beach the Dutch coast is great. 

the green spaces
Amsterdam is a finger city with green "scheggen" penetrating into the city. It also has many parks and all the streets have trees. It has by far the most trees compared to other city's (I once read). Just lookup Google Earth!


Anyway, I'm not sure if I would suggest Amsterdam. The climate may be to big of an issue. I'd suggest Barcalona!


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## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

^^
I didn't write that article for the Spiegel. Write a mail to the author if you want to complain about it.


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## Darryl (Jan 14, 2007)

Miss- Thanks for being smart enough to not take goschio seriously regarding Berlin. Don't listen to goschio when it comes to Berlin. He seems to take every opportunity to neutralize any positive comment about Berlin with a smartass negative comment or two in response. Someone from Berlin must've dumped him or something. hno:

There are several Berlin-haters on here that seem to not be able to tolerate positive discussion about Berlin and goschio is one of them. :bash:

Envy doesn't look good on them. :lol:


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