# The PARIS of the XXIe century



## Metsada (Oct 22, 2006)

WolfHound said:


> Yea those weren't that great, sex shops have no appeal to me. Although nice cultural diversity however unfortunately most of the immigrants of Paris live a pretty poverty stricken life.


You can't compare poverty in Europe with poverty in the US.


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## tiger (Aug 21, 2004)

minato ku said:


> Nope hno:
> Those districts are popular not poor.
> People are not poor but they are not rich.


Is there any poor district in greater Paris?


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## le lyonnais du 81 (Aug 25, 2005)

There are different faces of Paris : Popular , Glamour , sexy , commercial , economic.....

Great thread


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## Karakuri (Dec 5, 2006)

tiger said:


> Is there any poor district in greater Paris?


It's relative. You can go anywhere in Paris, even if you may find junkies lying in their piss in Northern 20th arrondissement, there's no shanty town, no chance of being shot dead like in Crenshaw bvd in LA.
But there obviously are discricts poorer than others, and the 16th arrondissement compared to the 20th it's like day and night.


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## tiger (Aug 21, 2004)

Karakuri said:


> It's relative. You can go anywhere in Paris, even if you may find junkies lying in their piss in Northern 20th arrondissement, there's no shanty town, no chance of being shot dead like in Crenshaw bvd in LA.
> But there obviously are discricts poorer than others, and the 16th arrondissement compared to the 20th it's like day and night.


Thanks for your introductions.They should solve the suburb problem.


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## edubejar (Mar 16, 2003)

Hed_Kandi said:


> What a dump !
> 
> 
> The glitz and glamour of Paris has been lost and resembles nothing of its former self.
> ...


HEHE...well, you can still find glitz and glamour in Paris...you just have to head west, to 1st, 2nd, 8th, 7th and 16th arrondissements. It's just like NYC...you can't expect to find penthouses and living-it-up-high in every Manhattan neighborhood. 

The areas you see on these pics are mainly 11th, 12th, 13th, 18th, 19th and 20th arrondissements (out of 20) and small radius around Chatelet-les-Halles somewhere between 1st and 2nd arrondissements, where 3 RER stations connect, bringing teenagers from suburban housing projects north and east of Paris. Some pics may also be from northern and eastern suburbs, although it's not written in stone: there are good neighborhoods in northern and eastern suburbs, and there are unfavorable neighborhoods in southern and western suburbs, like Nanterre, but overall, southern and especially western suburbs are middle class, upper-middle class and upper-class.


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## edubejar (Mar 16, 2003)

minato ku said:


> Nope hno:
> Those districts are popular not poor.
> People are not poor but they are not rich.


minatu ku, I hear a lot of French forumers use the word "popular" to say quartier "populaire" but that word doesn't have the same meaning in English, at least not American English. 

What minatu ku means by "popular" before it's misunderstood is...well I don't know the English/American equivalent off the top of my head, but it sorta translates to working-class/low-class, which in today's Paris, translates often to immigrant neighborhoods...I think it comes from the base word "peuple"...as in "the people"...the "masses," (populous) which sorta goes back to the times when the "masses" were poor in feudal Europe...the word continued to be used well after that. I'm not too sure about this, but "popular" not = "populaire" from "quartier populaire". Just say working-class neighborhoods.


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## Karakuri (Dec 5, 2006)

edubejar said:


> minatu ku, I hear a lot of French forumers use the word "popular" to say quartier "populaire" but that word doesn't have the same meaning in English, at least not American English.
> 
> What minatu ku means by "popular" before it's misunderstood is...well I don't know the English/American equivalent off the top of my head, but it sorta translates to working-class/low-class, which in today's Paris, translates often to immigrant neighborhoods...I think it comes from the base word "peuple"...as in "the people"...the "masses," (populous) which sorta goes back to the times when the "masses" were poor in feudal Europe...the word continued to be used well after that. I'm not too sure about this, but "popular" not = "populaire" from "quartier populaire". Just say working-class neighborhoods.


Actually "populaire" is more linked to jobless that to working class. Populaire in French means the contrary of wealthy, but not this poor yet... :nuts: I mean not as poor as 3rd world...


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

what do you mean populaire is more linked to jobless than to working class???

Generally are considered "milieux populaires" the places who, in their majority are populated by both unemployed, "ouvriers" and "employés".


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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)

CLIGNANCOURT


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## aucklandman (Feb 4, 2005)

There is no point complaining about these images, they clearly show that Paris is actullaly a real city.


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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)

black panthers symbol ....



















SYMBOL OF ZAPATIST (EZLN)



















LES FRIGOS, BIGGEST ILLEGAL HOUSE LIVE BY ARTIST (BUT TOLERATED BY THE CITY-HOUSE OF PARIS)


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## koogle (Jan 24, 2007)

interesting, looks very multi-cultured


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## Andrew (Sep 11, 2002)

Paris is amazing, these pics show why Paris is, without doubt, one of the coolest cities on the planet! It's awesome!


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Les Frigos is not illegal. The artists pay a low rent at the city. hno:


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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)

ah ok, sorry, i don't know, "je croyais que c'étais un squat"


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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)




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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)




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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)




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## Expat (May 25, 2005)

Tremendous pics. Full of life and energy.


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## Mercenary (Feb 3, 2007)

What a Dump....

These foreigners have turned Paris into a ghetto from the middle east or africa

Sad Very Sad that one of the world's great cities has turned into such a dump


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## UrbanSophist (Aug 4, 2005)

You people know nothing of the history of Paris!


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## tiger (Aug 21, 2004)

Mercenary said:


> What a Dump....
> 
> These foreigners have turned Paris into a ghetto from the middle east or africa
> 
> Sad Very Sad that one of the world's great cities has turned into such a dump



I think every big city has such a side.The difference is Paris's this side is very artistic,and actually very attractive and charming.


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## edubejar (Mar 16, 2003)

Mercenary said:


> What a Dump....
> 
> These foreigners have turned Paris into a ghetto from the middle east or africa
> 
> Sad Very Sad that one of the world's great cities has turned into such a dump


Na...there are plenty of areas in Paris, particularly in the central and western districts of intra-muros Paris that do not look like this and have much much lower presence of immigrants, unless they are wealthy foreigners, or the often spotted maid on her way to the rich neighborhoods. 

Also, many of what you would consider foreigners were born in France, so technically they are not foreigners.

You know, Paris is a real city with real problems and real contrasts. It cannot all be the Paris postcard you and others may expect it to be. But if you want a postcard moment and romantically make potery with your beloved other like in the move Ghost, just go to any Seine bridge in Central Paris or somewhere cute like in Le Marais, or Le Quartier Latin...those places are still around.


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

Mercenary said:


> What a Dump....
> 
> These foreigners have turned Paris into a ghetto from the middle east or africa
> 
> Sad Very Sad that one of the world's great cities has turned into such a dump




The Paris you talk about has never existed. Never has Paris been reduced to the stupid postcard stereotype. The districts you see photographed have always been working class and gritty.

As a matter of fact, you couldn't be further away from the truth, Paris is, sadly, getting more and more gentrified. The working class populations, whatever the color of skin, has to flee to the suburbs because of housing prices.


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## Mercenary (Feb 3, 2007)

Dude, I have been to Paris 5 times.

Each time its getting worse.

At first these places were far away but now they are everywhere

Pretty soon European cities are going to resemble Brazilian cities with gated communities where the rich live and the poor areas where mostly non-white people live


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## myplayground_1900 (Feb 2, 2007)

Mercenary said:


> What a Dump....
> 
> These foreigners have turned Paris into a ghetto from the middle east or africa
> 
> Sad Very Sad that one of the world's great cities has turned into such a dump


how is the situation in Toronto?


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## tayser (Sep 11, 2002)

Paris, no matter how you look at it, is, always has been, and always be, an absolute gem.

next trip will be exploring areas like these.


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

Mercenary said:


> Dude, I have been to Paris 5 times.
> 
> Each time its getting worse.
> 
> ...



Dude I live there....

Tell, what "places" exactly are you talking about, which are the districts who are "getting worse"?


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## chris_maiden (Dec 3, 2006)

Great Photos!

I Love Paris.


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## Ian (Nov 26, 2006)

Mercenary: you are from??? ... ohh sorry Toronto hahaha :lol: :lol:


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## Karakuri (Dec 5, 2006)

Mercenary said:


> Dude, I* have been to Paris 5 times*.
> 
> Each time its getting worse.
> 
> ...


Nobody doubts you... :lol: !
It's the 3rd time it's said on this thread, but as two times seem not to be enough for some people to understand, let's explain one more time: these places have always been the working class side of Paris. It goes way back, for example you can read descriptions of them in 19th century novels.
By the way, why would someone go 5 times in a city he thinks to be getting worse, looking like a dump and crappy?


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

Paris is a city with multiple faces. Often tourists do not realize this and I can understand this. Indeed, in discovering Paris, what strikes the most are Haussmanian buildings which are rather mainstream in the City and can be seen a bit everywhere.

However, even if they look alike on first sight, they are actually very different. For instance, in the business district of the Opéra, they reach a quality which nearly makes of them real palaces. I think for instance about the Crédit Lyonnais building, which is a pure jewel. In popular districts, you still see stone façades but generally for smaller buildings having smaller windows. You also see bricks completing the façades making them not fully stone. And of course, when you get in areas such as the 19th or 20th appartment, your realize they are completely dominated by post-ww2 buildings, generally around 10 floors.

Personally, despite having spent my whole life in Paris, I'm still amazed by the quality of the architecture in the Opera business district. Knowing how the district is alive, I will certainly not consider it as "museum" simply because buildings façades are made of stone. Clearly, the Opera business district is among the most beautiful and vibrant business districts in the world. Simply go there at noon during weekdays and you'll see by yourself.

Here are some pictures from the Opera/Champs-Elysées business district:



































































































































And finally, here are some other pictures of street life in Paris.


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## Marek.kvackaj (Jun 24, 2006)

such a great pics...


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## rocky (Apr 20, 2005)

seriously this type of misrepresentations of paris are almost as annoying than the amelie poulain type of caricatures.

so tonio del barrio calls it "the paris of the 21st century" and purposely chooses pictures with only black faces and asians. whats the purpose, to make people think paris is 80 % black and 15% asian? theires a trend in this forum to take close pictures of non white people just to say "look my city is multicultural"


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## Narcisse (Aug 15, 2006)

Thank for this amazing photos.

The "multicultural" aspect is good to see. Yet I am also seeing "monoculture" like when I see a man wearing a US New York Yanqui hat. Why is US fashion consumed everywhere? It just looks funny. Well I think Paris is unique anyway.


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

rocky said:


> seriously this type of misrepresentations of paris are almost as annoying than the amelie poulain type of caricatures.
> 
> so tonio del barrio calls it "the paris of the 21st century" and purposely chooses pictures with only black faces and asians. whats the purpose, to make people think paris is 80 % black and 15% asian? theires a trend in this forum to take close pictures of non white people just to say "look my city is multicultural"


Actually, I had personally understood that the purpose of this thread was actually to show the multicultural aspects of Paris. Otherwise I fail to understand why posting some pictures of the Chinese New Year celebrations or pictures of rabbis... Anyway, I could agree that the title may be confusing, but frankly, this is only a matter of taste. People are free to describe things as they want.

Anyway, it's true that it would be interesting to also see other aspects of today's Paris in this thread. It's only up to us to post other kinds of images.


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## Bond James Bond (Aug 23, 2002)

The PARIS of the XXIe century: It looks like New York.

Maybe they should just call it French New York.


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## zzibit (Apr 17, 2006)

no thanks


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## Dhakaiya (Jul 26, 2006)

I had toured Europe in 1997 (I LOVED IT!!!!) with my family and my dad had to go for another office tour in 2006, but what he says is really disheartening, he says that the major cities like Paris, Hamburg etc. are not as clean as before, what is the reason can smn tell me please?


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## Bond James Bond (Aug 23, 2002)

Metropolitan said:


> Or call NYC the American Paris.
> 
> Anyway, more seriously, I've always considered that NYC and Paris shared many similar aspects actually. Both Paris and NYC have a well-managed urban planning in their center, with wide and vibrant boulevards. They are also organized the same way with a very dense center, dynamic "outer boroughs" (or "inner suburbs"), and an even larger sprawl beyond. They concentrate intellectuals (Greewich Village, Saint-Germain-des-Prés) and culture (Manhattan and Paris are the two cities with the largest concentration of cinemas). They're massively influenced by a golden age of architecture which gave them their most popular face (1880-1920 for Paris and 1900-1940 for NYC). They have both in their center a very dense subway network with stations very close to each others. They share the same kind of relationship with the rest of their country (a mix of disdain and fascination). Just like New Yorkers have the reputation to be arrogant among other Americans, French people feel the same way towards Parisians. Even their respective symbols have been both built by the same Gustave Eiffel ! :lol:


That's interesting, but not what I was thinking of.


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

Bond James Bond said:


> That's interesting, but not what I was thinking of.


Are you telling me that NYC and Paris have even more in common ? 

Actually, both are my favourite cities worldwide.


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## Bond James Bond (Aug 23, 2002)

Metropolitan said:


> Are you telling me that NYC and Paris have even more in common ?
> 
> Actually, both are my favourite cities worldwide.


No, I was wondering why we need to turn every city into a copy of New York.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Paris 's biggest Chinatown today (Sorry for the quality, I take these pictures with my phone  )


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## LSyd (Aug 31, 2003)

interesting collection of pics showing the city's life. it's too bad so many racist, snotty assholes have to post their opinion.

-


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

thanks for the amateur pics minato ku


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## Rem (Feb 26, 2006)

I post this message just to tell that somebody on one of the biggest Forum websites in France made a link to this Thread. Their reactions are very interesting, some people say they don't recognize paris in those photos, and consider that the "real paris" is not a huge african or arab area, they think paris looks more like a garbage on these photographs than the City of Light, some of them are pretty angry whereas other people think the pics are realy nice and show another aspect of Paris, a multicultural city that can be benefit and interesting for France. 
So if tomorrow, France is divided into two parts it will be your fault.
http://www.jeuxvideo.com/forums/1-69-593292-1-0-1-0-0.htm


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## Europa. (Jan 14, 2007)

wow paris so big, i never knew that even the china part of town looked good, im somewhat to a certain extend suprised


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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)

CHINATOWN-PARIS


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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)




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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)

GANESHA FEAST IN PARIS


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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)

beautiful french woman


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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)




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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)

CARNAVAL ANTILLAIS IN PARIS


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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)




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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)




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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:


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## coolink (Apr 20, 2005)

ey seine is the only river in paris or they have more rivers and canals?


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

Rem said:


> I post this message just to tell that somebody on one of the biggest Forum websites in France made a link to this Thread.


Don't be surprised by their reactions. Most of the bad comments come from French people who aren't actually from Paris. Actually, Paris has a very ambivalent relationship with the rest of the country. Generally, non-parisian French people regard that city with a mix of disdain and fascination. Some of them consider it as an overcrowded and perverted place, others are curious about a place where there seem to be things happening.

Actually, it's a bit the same as asking to people from Nebraska their opinion about New York City. Some will tell you that NYC is the road to hell, others will tell you they would be curious to spend some times in such a vibrant place.

Anyway, something which is very important to understand and to know. France is not Paris, and Paris is not France. It's been more than a century that Paris is a multicultural city. The majority of people in Paris have at least one grand parent born in a foreign country. As such, Paris is a place which have swallowed several generations of immigration. That's why I don't mind hearing a guy from the French countryside saying he doesn't recognize France in those pictures. In the 30's, his grand parents would have told the same thing in seeing pictures of Polish, Armenian, Russian or Italian districts in Paris.


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

bang said:


> ey seine is the only river in paris or they have more rivers and canals?


Seine is the main river and the only one in Central Paris. However, there are several canals on the Northeastern part of the city proper (canal St-Martin, canal de l'Ourcq, canal St-Denis). In the inner suburbs, the Seine makes large meanders, and meets other rivers such as the Marne and the Oise.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

And the bievre ?  
Yes now it is a sewer. :lol:


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## Rem (Feb 26, 2006)

Metropolitan said:


> Don't be surprised by their reactions. Most of the bad comments come from French people who aren't actually from Paris. Actually, Paris has a very ambivalent relationship with the rest of the country. Generally, non-parisian French people regard that city with a mix of disdain and fascination. Some of them consider it as an overcrowded and perverted place, others are curious about a place where there seem to be things happening.
> 
> Actually, it's a bit the same as asking to people from Nebraska their opinion about New York City. Some will tell you that NYC is the road to hell, others will tell you they would be curious to spend some times in such a vibrant place.
> 
> Anyway, something which is very important to understand and to know. France is not Paris, and Paris is not France. It's been more than a century that Paris is a multicultural city. The majority of people in Paris have at least one grand parent born in a foreign country. As such, Paris is a place which have swallowed several generations of immigration. That's why I don't mind hearing a guy from the French countryside saying he doesn't recognize France in those pictures. In the 30's, his grand parents would have told the same thing in seeing pictures of Polish, Armenian, Russian or Italian districts in Paris.


I don't completely agrre with you, what you say is pretty clumsy.



> France is not Paris, and Paris is not France.


First, we have a proverb in France which says exactly the contrary, it says " Paris is france, if you take Paris you take France"




> The majority of people in Paris have at least one grand parent born in a foreign country.


it's maybe the case of people living in some suburbs of Paris, but there are still a lot of people in paris who have lived in the City for several generations.



> It's been more than a century that Paris is a multicultural city. In the 30's, his grand parents would have told the same thing in seeing pictures of Polish, Armenian, Russian or Italian districts in Paris.


Not really, Paris has been a multicultural city since the 70's, and you give the explanation in your second sentence. the first immigration wave, a century ago, concerned the bretons, who left the brittany to work in Paris but we can't talk about multiculturalism at this time, because bretons were like Parisians, they were french, then in the 30's as you said, France needed workers, that's why many italians, polish and spanish emigrated to France. But even in the 30's after this new immigration, we can't say Paris was a multicultural city because these new comers were European, catholic, white, and belonged to the same culture, they learned French etc...

Paris became a multicultural city only in the 60's and 70's when people from our former colonies ( Senegal, Morocco, Algeria, Viet-nam, Cameroun ) came in France with totally different cultures, so you can't compare the xenophobia of the 30's with the situation today. And for your information, I live in the Val d'Oise, which belongs to the urban area of paris, and the Front National (a far-right, nationalist political party ) made one of the highest score in my department during the last presindential elections whereas many black and arab people live here, so as you can see, there's not only "a guy from the French countryside who says he doesn't recognize France in those pictures." People from the area of Paris say the same thing.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

I don't agree hno: 
Europeans of other countries in 30's at Paris create multiculturalism.
People can have same religion and race but they can have a different culture.
Russian or Polish have not the same culture than a french.
Don't confuse Multiculturalism and Multiethnicity.
A french "Black people" doesn't create multiculturalism if like the majority it has the same french culture.
But a french "white people" who born and lived at overseas departement when it go in Paris create multiculturalism because the culture in overseas departements is different.

*And the majority of French has foreign origin.*  

Paris is France and is not the France like London is U.K and is not U.K
Paris is France because it is the only big powerful city of the country but it is not France because it doesn't represent the others french cities. 
I agree with Metro when you visit Paris you don't visit France. hno:


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## tiger (Aug 21, 2004)

minato ku said:


> I don't agree hno:
> Europeans of other countries in 30's at Paris create multiculturalism.
> People can have same religion and race but they can have a different culture.
> Russian or Polish have not the same culture than a french.
> ...


:yes:


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## Rem (Feb 26, 2006)

minato ku said:


> I don't agree hno:
> People can have same religion and race but they can have a different culture.
> Russian or Polish have not the same culture than a french.
> Don't confuse Multiculturalism and Multiethnicity.
> ...


You're totally right, and I agree with you on that point. But saying, "Europeans of other countries in 30's at Paris create multiculturalism." is completely false, at this time immigrants came from Italy or Spain. What are the big and real differences between France and these countries ? none but language. that's why you can't say that today there's an italian, or spanish culture in France, that's no sense, it's not some spaghetti in a restaurant which constitute a real italian community and culture completely different of the rest of France. 
Maybe they had their own cultures, different of the French's but the differences were so little that we can't speak of a real multiculturalism society in these days. Paris, London and Berlin are today World-cities, very multicultural, speaking many languagues, with people from all around the world , and that explains in part why those cities are so interesting but by comparison with the long history of europe this phenomenon is pretty recent.


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## GM (Feb 29, 2004)

minato ku said:


> *And the majority of French has foreign origin.*



Je ne crois pas.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

No it is right indeed not foreign born but foreign origins. 

In 30's the Europe was more separated than now it was more difference between a french and an italian.
Italian or spanish had a lot problem because the xenophobism. :bash: 
_It was worse than now with problem of dicrimination in poor suburbs_ hno: 
Obvious now they are not many difference between an italian or etc and a french because the European Union.

_french It is not ethinic but cultural._


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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)

Yes, i think it is right for 80%. When i remenber, In my "lyçée", in paris suburbs, in the classroom, all the student have foreign name ... I'm italian (but my pseudo is spanish, i know ...), but there is so many people came from to east europa, north africa, asia ... and may be three or four people on 35 students, with french name, but may be, they have foreign origin ... i don't know ... may be, they came from to other side in france ....


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## Karakuri (Dec 5, 2006)

All this is so riduculous.
Not any industrialized country, except from Japan, has less than 10% of immigrants.
Besides, one race = one nation, is a concept, should it existed one day, that no longer exists, since a long time ago.
What you got to look at, is that except from a few fools, in big cities, that live in their community speaking only their languages, and some fools that want Corsica and Pays Basque to become independent, everyone in France speaks the same language, watch the same TV, learn the same things at school... Whereas, in China, where it looks like there are only Chinese, in fact there are almost as many languages as big cities. In Spain too, you don't exactly speak the same language in Barcelona as in Madrid...
Do you also know that many wealthy and middle class French buy big villas in Morocco? They only go there for summer vacations, and local store owners and services have to adapt, speaking French and accepting bikinis on beaches... Do you know that in Northern Italia many people have French family names and do speak French? Do you know that FD Roosevelt's mother was French? Do you know there are at least 2000 French expatriates in London?
See, we "invade" other countries too. 
Having an Italian name doesn't mean you're Italian. By the way my first name is Celt, but I was born in Lyon, does it matter?


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## Rem (Feb 26, 2006)

> Obvious now they are not many difference between an italian or etc and a french because the European Union.



:lol: :lol: Is it a joke ? it's the most stupid sentence I've ever read.


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## GM (Feb 29, 2004)

TONIO DEL BARRIO said:


> Yes, i think it is right for 80%. When i remenber, In my "lyçée", in paris suburbs, in the classroom, all the student have foreign name ... I'm italian (but my pseudo is spanish, i know ...), but there is so many people came from to east europa, north africa, asia ... and may be three or four people on 35 students, with french name, but may be, they have foreign origin ... i don't know ... may be, they came from to other side in france ....


Don't generalise the case of your highschool classroom to the whole France...

Actually, the vast majority of French people are from... French origin ! stunnning, isn't it ?


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

I agree
I am badly expresses hno: 
But with the European Union border are open.


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## le lyonnais du 81 (Aug 25, 2005)

actually 18 millions of french people have a grand grand father born in foreign country (france : 64 millions habitants) like me i had a spanish grand grand father but all my other french grand grand father and gran grand mother were french you socan't say a majority of french people have a foreign origin.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

GM said:


> Don't generalise the case of your highschool classroom to the whole France...
> 
> Actually, the vast majority of French people are from... French origin ! stunnning, isn't it ?


No
French origin doesn't exist in France because of the geographical situation of the country. (I speak about recent origin after the french revolution)

Exemple the biggest cities of France (about % of french population live in city)
The majority of French live near the sea or near a border a little part of french population live in the center principaly in Paris Orleans Tours and Clermont Ferrand.
Lyon near Switzerland 
Marseille near the sea
Lille near Belgium
Toulouse near Spain
Nice near Italy
Bordeaux near the sea
Strasbourg near the Germany
Nantes near the sea (It was a port before)
The only big city in the center is Paris.


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

Paris multi-culturalism is one of the least known in the world, but that doesn't make it less exciting. Paris multi-culturalism has always been a given, and Parisians themselves never praise themselves for it. However, the very-identity of Paris lies in it. The French cancan dancers which is so typical of Paris is based on musics from Offenbach, a Parisian which was originally a German Jewish. The cliché of the French "music Hall" is Josephine Baker, an American black dancer. Edith Piaf, the only internationally-known French speaking singer, had Italian and Kabyl origins. Her most famous songs have been written by George Moustaki, originately Greek. The most influential Paris painters from the 20th century are Italian such as Modigliani, or Spanish such as Picasso or Dali. Chopin has composed some of his best masterpieces in Paris. Even the scientists who made the most striking discoveries in Paris were often migrants... the best example being Marie Curie, George Charpak or Haroun Tazieff, who have all grown up in Poland. Who are the French sportsmen you know ? Yannick Noah, Zinedine Zidane, Michel Platini, Eric Cantona, Thierry Henry, Raymond Kopa ? All had foreign parents. Paris politics has also been made by people from all culture and origins... Leon Blum, Jewish, was leading France when Hitler was ruling Germany. Daniel Cohn-Bendit triggered a great youth riot in France in 1968. Most of these people are remembered as simply French. That's so true that most Parisians reading those lines wouldn't even be aware of this.

But anyway, multi-culturalism in Paris isn't simply about some famous people who have made its reputation. It's about the parisians themselves... the people who've built that city. When you are in Paris, you always come from somewhere else. It's been 150 years now that Belleville is peopled by people coming from the furthest and fleeing the worst misery. I won't make you the whole History of Paris, but people from all continents have made of Paris what it is.

Those waves of immigrations have never been a piece of cake. Since the early 19th century, people complain that newer migrants can't be compared with the older ones. In 1850, it was the Brittons who were considered as too different to the other French people to be assimilated. In 1880, it was the Jews from Central Europe who were considered as too different because of their religion, to be considered the same way as Britton immigrants. In the 1920's, it was the the fervently catholic Poles who lived in awful shantytowns and who were considered as too religious to be assimilated among a French working class which was already largely atheist. Nowadays, what a surprise, the argument is that European immigrants can be compared with the one of people from other continents. Actually, the only difference is that today's migrants are still poor, whereas older ones got richer and aren't a problem anymore. It's not migrants from some place that people reject, it's their poverty.

France is the country in Europe which started to welcome immigrants the earliest. And this for a simple and obvious reasons: From 1850 to 1950, all European countries have seen their population booming. All except France in which the population was stagnating. As such, when people were still leaving Germany, the UK or Italy, France was already welcoming migrants.

Every country in Europe has the lively remembrance of that period of emigration. In Italy, the main argument to accept immigration today is the remembrance of all those Italians who've left their country for another place. We simply cannot compare France's History towards migration to the one of any other in Europe.

Here is a nice website about the History of immigration in France: Histoire de l'Immigration en France (French)


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## TONIO DEL BARRIO (Dec 30, 2005)

very hardly to speak about that. I just agree to say, France is a country with contact with many european country and it is a great big city, so a part of people came from to an other country, but it is not a genarality, that's right. And, it is more easy to understand that in Paris, the capital of France, where there is many people who came from to foreign countries ... not the majority, not in all part of France even if in Toulouse, there is many people from Italia, Spain or North africa but it is not a majority, manu people came from the "region" Midi-Pyrénées" or the south west of France.

Sorry, perhaps i have make a generality with my highschool ... all that for say : Paris is so big, with a few of diffrent disctrict ... so interesting city, i thing, after, it is a boring discussion with no end ...

My own was to show the district which anybody to foreign of France don't know. After, tourist can't see that because it is not interesting to show that because they don't have make a travel to Paris to see that, they don't pay for that, that the reason, but it is a thing to know of Paris ... there is many people who came from to everywhere in world ...


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## GM (Feb 29, 2004)

minato ku said:


> No because french origin doesn't exist in France because of the geographical situation of the country. (I speak about recent origin after the french revolution)
> 
> Exemple the biggest cities of France (about % of french population live in city)
> The majority of French live near the sea or near a border a little part of french population live in the center principaly in Paris Orleans Tours and Clermont Ferrand.
> ...


?!???

I really don't see your point.
If I follow your logic, I can't say that I am from French origin, because Nantes (my hometown) is near the sea !?
Explain yourself, please.... 


I think it's cool to show off how multicultural Paris is, but it's pretty ridiculous to make people think that there is no such thing as "french origin" and that all French people are from immigrant descent...




minato ku said:


> Nantes near the sea (It was a port before)


Well, it's always a port (the 4th of France actually).


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

GM said:


> I think it's cool to show off how multicultural Paris is, but it's pretty ridiculous to make people think that there is no such thing as "french origin" and that all French people are from immigrant descent..


Once again, the point of view is totally different from a region to another.

11% of the French population is foreign born, but the differences are very big from a region to another. In Limousin, only 5% of the population is foreign born. In Ile-de-France, 21% of the population is foreign born.

When you're from Nantes, you can indeed consider that French origins mean something, but when you're in Paris, you don't view things in the same way. The thing is that all Parisians have origins. Those having French origins claim themselves as Britton, as Auvergnat, as Guadeloupean, as Savoyard, as Chtimi, as Provençal, as Corsican. Those having foreign origins claim themselves as Armenian, as Portuguese, as Algerian, as Malian, as Polish, as Ashkenazi Jewish, as Sefaradi Jewish, as Turkish, as Chinese, as Vietnamese, as Tamul, etc...

The truth is that, in Paris, no one actually claims himself as only "French". There's always mixed cultures in his blood.


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## Karakuri (Dec 5, 2006)

Great, I just learned that if you come back 2876097 generations before, you can find foreign origins in your family. Well, if you go that way, even my Japanese example doesn't make sense anymore.
A few months ago an Italian doctor helped someone in great pain, laid down in a hospital bed for years, to die. This doctor has a German sounding name, so must we say "the German doctor" because the father of his cousin's husband had a German grand father, or is he still Italian?

If you think that way, I guess nobody is American, or Bresilian, and even Algerian are a mix of Arabs, Berbère, Kabyles....
You'd better give up, you'll never find a 100% "pure" person (disgusting word, sorry).


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

Karakuri said:


> All this is so riduculous.
> Not any industrialized country, except from Japan, has less than 10% of immigrants.


That's wrong.

Proportion of Foreign born population in larger EU countries (source):
Sweden: 11.2%
France: 10.7%
Netherlands: 9.8%
Austria: 9.3%
Germany: 8.9%
Belgium: 8.5%
United Kingdom: 6.8%
Poland: 5.4%
Greece: 4.9%
Spain: 3.1%
Hungary: 3.0%
Italy: 2.8%
Portugal: 2.3%
Czech Republic: 2.3%
Bulgaria: 1.3%
Romania: 0.4%
But more than these figures, what is important to understand is that France has started a lot earlier than most other countries to welcome immigrants. I mean by that a lot of domestic born French people have actually foreign origins. For instance, only 12% of Americans are foreign born. That doesn't mean that the other 88% have English roots.


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## Karakuri (Dec 5, 2006)

^^ You're talking about foreign borns, that is to say real foreigners.
But what I read in this thread is that nobody is 100% French because we all have a forefather born overseas... That is a complete non sense.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

What I say it is that the majority of French are foreign origin not that nobody is 100% french because French is not an origin but a culture.
Per exemple I am 100% french but I have foreign origin.


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

Karakuri said:


> ^^ You're talking about foreign borns, that is to say real foreigners.
> But what I read in this thread is that nobody is 100% French because we all have a forefather born overseas... That is a complete non sense.


This thread is about cultural diversity and origins, it is not about citizenship or nationality.

Actually, as weird as it may sound, we can be 100% French and still feel we have an Armenian identity deep inside. This doesn't make you less French. The thing is that identities can't be divided in percentage. It is something a lot more complex than that. We can feel fully part of a society, we can identify ourselves to that society, but besides, this doesn't mean that we cannot also feel we belong or have ties with another culture, _in a different way_.

I'll give you a simple example. When two New Yorkers meet and have a chat. All of a sudden, one of them says that he's italian. Actually, it's been 4 generations that his family live in the US, he's 100% American, he has absolutely no connection with Italy and has never put a single foot in that country. Nevertheleass, he still considers himself, in a different way, as Italian. There's nothing illogical in this at all.

Sorry, I don't know if that's very clear. Anyway, I still hope you've got my point. 


To come back to the topic, those districts of Paris have always been poor and they have always been filled of immigrants. Actually, many of them are a lot cleaner nowadays than they were 30 years ago.


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

minato ku said:


> What I say it is that the majority of French are foreign origin not that nobody is 100% french because French is not an origin but a culture.
> Per exemple I am 100% french but I have foreign origin.


Funny, you've used exactly the same way to explain it than I did : _"I am 100% French but I have a foreign origin"_. And I hadn't read your post before writing ! 

I think you're right actually. This is somewhere about the difference between culture and identity. Of course, we can feel Portuguese and also have a Portuguese culture, but still have a mainstream French culture and identify ourselves as French ! :nuts: 

Anyway, all this to say that it's something very complex, but the fact is that it's not because we're not a 100% pure blood Burgundian that it means we can't be 100% French.


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## Karakuri (Dec 5, 2006)

I know many many people (including myself) who don't care if they have a forefather who was born in Slovakia or in Somalia in 1567ad. I was born in Lyon, but my family came from Nantes, though I've never been there and don't feel particularly "linked" to that town (even if it's a beautiful one).

I think we'd better consider who we are, than who our family was 200 years ago. For example France has several islands in the Caribbean, and I guess lots of those people on the pics are from these Islands, they thus are 200% French, even if they weren't born in mainland France. Moreover, all those 50/60 year old Northern African people, if they are from Algeria, don't forget Algeria was a French department until the 60's!!!

About Paris culture and Edith Piaf's origins: the violin was invented by copying an ancient arab string instrument, does this mean it's not a typically western instrument? Besides, the famous Herrenchiemsee castle in Germany (built by Louis II) is a replica of Versailles, full of French inspiration; does it mean it's not German's culture anylonger? Do you know that Marie Antoinette was from Austria? And do you know that a French King governed England several years, and that, at that time kings in Europe were always from foreign countries, or married to foreigners?


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

No one has ever told the opposite Karakuri !

Edith Piaf is 100% French. Who doubt this ? It's not because she had Italian and Algerian roots that she wasn't 100% French. Edith Piaf is a symbol of Paris. All the people I've mentionned were chosen because _they are_ symbols of France.

There's no opposition between multi-culturalism and French culture. The French culture feeds itself of multi-culturalism !


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## edubejar (Mar 16, 2003)

Rem said:


> I don't completely agrre with you, what you say is pretty clumsy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I myself thought your first comment was clumsy where you say you showed this thread in some other online forum of France, and that people there were shocked or surprised to see such multiculture, and how if France splits in two, blah blah blah. Rather, I think what Metropolitan said makes much more sense. Why would the majority of France be shocked? There is multiculture in the majority of other major French cities, if which there are several: Marseille, Lyon, Lille, Toulouse, Bordeaux, Nantes, Nice, Strasbourg, Rennes and the list goes on a bit further. They all have, more than anything, blacks and arabs, mainly from ex-French colonies and overseas territories, just like Paris, just at a much smaller scale. People watch TV where there is evidence of mutliculture Paris. Just in November 2005, headline news in the entire world showed the riots, which mainly involved youths of black and arab parents. It makes no sense that someone doesn't know about multicultural Paris, unless they are from a very rural town, and even then.

And while Italian, Spanish, and Eastern-European immigrants may not have caused similar cultural clashes than those of the 60s, 70s...up to today...it was all relevant to the time period. For French at that time, Europeans from Southern and Eastern Europe were different and they didn't have today's immigrants to compare them with and say "well, atleast the first ones are European."...they probably never concretely imagined anything "worse" coming along. It's all relative to the time period.


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## parisian (Mar 6, 2007)

well, look at france, its the middle of europe,
immigrants came from centuries into france romans, germans, celtics, the barbarian invasion fro russia an mongolia, the arabs during the 7th century should i go ahead?
in the last century we had 100 000 polish people that set in the north of france and 100 000 italians and spanisg people came in france to find a better life, that was in the begining of the 20th cenntury.
after that in the 60's and 70's, portuguese 800 000, arabs, chinese, vietnamese and black africans.


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## Maxim Prokopenko (Dec 1, 2006)

parisian said:


> well, look at france, its the middle of europe,
> immigrants came from centuries into france romans, germans, celtics, the barbarian invasion fro russia an mongolia, the arabs during the 7th century should i go ahead?
> in the last century we had 100 000 polish people that set in the north of france and 100 000 italians and spanisg people came in france to find a better life, that was in the begining of the 20th cenntury.
> after that in the 60's and 70's, portuguese 800 000, arabs, chinese, vietnamese and black africans.


Is it possible more in detail about barbarian invasion from Russia and Mongolia? :sly:


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## Nolke (Oct 25, 2003)

Metropolitan said:


> That's wrong.
> 
> Proportion of Foreign born population in larger EU countries (source):
> Sweden: 11.2%
> ...


This doesn't a lot to do with the matter you are discussing, but I found that data quite interesting, so let me show you the immigration figures for Spain for 2006, which were publicized the last week:

http://www.ine.es/prensa/np447.pdf

you can check it although is in Spanish, but I'll summarize it for you: 9,12% of the total population. The figures you put there are for 2000-2002. 

Knowing that the last massive regularizations of immigrants only affected to less than 200.000 people, you may agree with me if I say that it seems worrisome. I've been looking for up-to-date data for some European countries such as France, but couldn't find anything (to be honest, didn't search too much). I'm curious about how has the French population growin in the last years, mainly to see how it has evolved, and how has affected the situation in Spain to its neighbouring countries, because of the Schengen space.


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

rocky said:


> seriously this type of misrepresentations of paris are almost as annoying than the amelie poulain type of caricatures.
> 
> so tonio del barrio calls it "the paris of the 21st century" and purposely chooses pictures with only black faces and asians. whats the purpose, to make people think paris is 80 % black and 15% asian? theires a trend in this forum to take close pictures of non white people just to say "look my city is multicultural"


Don't worry, there are still a lot of "white French" Parisians in town.


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## Marek_VF (Aug 6, 2006)

^^ Quite lovely moreover


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## delirious&zen (Mar 28, 2007)

TONIO DEL BARRIO said:


> CLIGNANCOURT, A FAMOUS POPULAR MARKET


Paris looks like some periferic district of mexico city (I'm from mexico city)

:lol::nuts:


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## KAZAN RESIDENT (May 6, 2009)

La Defense in 80's









La Defense nowadays


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## Shezan (Jun 21, 2007)

nice urban shots kay:


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## christos-greece (Feb 19, 2008)

I made a research on this thread, yesterday... it needs some new updated photos, i think


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## Cyril (Sep 11, 2002)

La Défense has not really changed in 30 years. That's appalling 
(ok it might change within 10 years though..)


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## Kaiser (Oct 16, 2005)

Paris is ugly!


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## Indy G (Nov 19, 2007)

And U2


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## BabaORiley (Mar 17, 2013)

Interesting topic and very nice photos ! It's true that Paris has a long history of immigration and that poverty and lack of social ladder can create more issues, divisions and rejections than multiculturalism but can we summarize the current situation with that and compare it to older waves of immigrants ? 

I think that the immigration after WW2 in the region of Paris and Marseille is a special case by it's scale (millions), the category of most of these immigrants (poor & uneducated), the history behind it (colonisation), and like someone said the bigger cultural (including religion in some cases) and ethnic gap between France and Africa (Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Senegal, Ivory Coast, Mali, Congo, etc..) and Asia (China, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, etc...) than between France and Europe (Italy, Portugal, Spain, Poland, Belgium, etc...). In one case you had an easy cultural integration/mixing of the population and in the other you have communities (helped by isolation in ghettos) and a multicultural society or a ghetto subculture when the state was hoping for a sort of assimilation.

With the biggest Muslim and Jew population of Europe, lots of French citizen with roots in Africa and Asia, the biggest population of Europe from overseas departments, millions of tourists... don't be surprised to have diversity on your photos from Paris and not a Parisian moustachu with a beret on his bicycle :laugh: . 

Hope other people will post photos from Paris or "Greater" Paris to show it's true face today. I can only participate with a reminder of a time when France was really proud of exposing its diversity.


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