# MISC | Busiest air routes between European cities and cities outside Europe in 2010



## brisavoine

The EU's statistics agency has published fascinating detailed statistics about passager traffic between each European airport and all its counterparts in the world. The last fully available figures are from 2010.

I've compiled the busiest air routes between European cities and cities outside of Europe based on passenger traffic in 2010. Europe in this definition excludes Russia and Turkey, so Russian and Turkish cities appear as cities outside of Europe. I've also grouped all the airports of a given metropolitan area together, to better reflect the actual intensity of traffic between cities.

NOTE THAT there are no direct flights between Europe and Oceania. Therefore, passengers between London and Australia/New Zealand appear in the London-Dubai, London-Hong Kong, and London-Singapore air routes. Passengers between Paris and New Caledonia/French Polynesia appear in the Paris-Tokyo and Paris-Los Angeles air routes.

I tried to add up all the airports properly, but if you think I forgot something, please let me know.

Enjoy! :cheers:

Busiest air routes between Europe and outside Europe in 2010 (passenger traffic):
1- London-New York: 3,643,080 passengers
2- London-Dubai: 2,604,284 
3- London-Hong Kong: 1,801,520 
4- Paris-New York: 1,635,157 
5- London-Singapore: 1,507,032 
6- London-Los Angeles: 1,419,144 
7- Paris-Montréal: 1,242,821 
8- Frankfurt-New York: 1,235,660 
9- London-Toronto: 1,223,711 
10- Paris-Casablanca: 1,148,034 
11- London-Chicago: 1,138,579 
12- Paris - Pointe-à-Pitre: 1,098,322 
13- Düsseldorf/Cologne-Antalya: 1,072,463 
14- London-Washington: 1,017,830 
15- Paris-Tunis: 999,046 
16- London-Bangkok: 991,862 
17- London-Delhi: 979,146 
18- Paris - Fort-de-France: 976,978 
19- London-Mumbai: 958,103 
20- Paris-Algiers: 954,334 
21- London-Istanbul: 936,266 
22- Frankfurt-Chicago: 888,936 
23- Düsseldorf/Cologne-Istanbul: 887,986 
24- Paris-St Denis (Réunion): 887,251 
25- London-Johannesburg: 886,148 
26- London-Boston: 866,414 
27- London-San Francisco: 860,617 
28- Madrid-Buenos Aires: 857,851 
29- Rome-New York: 851,527 
30- Paris-Tokyo: 849,055 
31- Madrid-New York: 848,538 
32- Frankfurt-Singapore: 846,632 
33- Frankfurt-Istanbul: 842,809 
34- London-Miami: 821,983 
35- Amsterdam-New York: 812,399
36- London-Orlando: 792,418 
37- Paris-Marrakech: 772,409 
38- Paris-Istanbul: 767,802 
39- London-Tel Aviv: 730,168 
40- Paris-Tel Aviv: 724,104 
41- Paris-Dubai: 716,892 
42- Amsterdam-Istanbul: 703,112 
43- London-Tokyo: 682,830 
44- Frankfurt-Dubai: 679,173 
45- Frankfurt-Washington: 676,592 
46- London-Moscow: 671,258 
47- Frankfurt-Bangkok: 670,423 
48- Dublin-New York: 654,519 
49- Munich-Istanbul: 643,403 
50- Paris-Moscow: 642,729 

I'll add the 10 busiest air routes for each region of the world later.


----------



## krnboy1009

Moscow is technically in Europe.


----------



## Momo1435

That's also the case for Istanbul, but since these numbers are based on EU statistics it's only logical that they aren't counted.


But the numbers still show that London is the absolute uncontested #1 city in Europe. It has the busiest routes from Europe to the other top international cities in the world. 

Paris comes in second, but is much more focused on it's overseas territories and it's former colonies. It scores lower on routes to the big American and Asian cities then London except for Tokyo. But that's mainly because Paris is a much bigger tourist destination then London for Japanese people. 

In Germany international traffic is spread out over several cities, therefor the German airports are coming in lower in the list then London and Paris. But it's interesting that the routes from Frankfurt in the list are more "international" then the routes from Paris. 

Another interesting note, London - Hong Kong is the only Europe - China route in the list. 

btw, using yellow as a fond should be avoided as much as possible since it's unreadable.


----------



## brisavoine

Momo1435 said:


> Paris comes in second, but is much more focused on it's overseas territories and it's former colonies.


Same for London. All the top London routes are with ex-colonies (whereas the top Paris route is with a city that was never a French colony: NYC). The first route between London and a non-former British colonial city is London-Los Angeles (although of course LA is Anglophone and part of and Anglo-Saxon, otherwise it would be London-Bangkok).


Momo1435 said:


> But it's interesting that the routes from Frankfurt in the list are more "international" then the routes from Paris.


That sentence makes no sense.


Momo1435 said:


> Another interesting note, London - Hong Kong is the only Europe - China route in the list.


As I've already explained, a lot of the passengers on the London-Hong Kong route are in fact passengers between Australia/New Zealand and Britain. In terms of true traffic with Chinese cities, it's actually Paris and Frankfurt which dominate, but I'll post about that later.


----------



## brisavoine

Top 10 air routes between each region of the world and Europe. I'm starting with the Americas.

NORTH AMERICA:
1- London-New York: 3,643,080 passengers 
2- Paris-New York: 1,635,157 
3- London-Los Angeles: 1,419,144 
4- Paris-Montréal: 1,242,821 
5- Frankfurt-New York: 1,235,660 
6- London-Toronto: 1,223,711 
7- London-Chicago: 1,138,579 
8- London-Washington: 1,017,830 
9- Frankfurt-Chicago: 888,936 
10- London-Boston: 866,414

LATIN AMERICA:
1- Madrid-Buenos Aires: 857,851 
2- Madrid-Bogota: 577 843
3- Paris-São Paulo: 537,505 
4- Madrid-Mexico City: 519,611 
5- Paris-Rio de Janeiro: 510,719 
6- Madrid-Lima: 507,535 
7- Madrid-São Paulo: 494,359 
8- Frankfurt-São Paulo: 444,907 
9- London-São Paulo: 412,442 
10- Paris-Mexico City: 402,080

CARIBBEAN & GUIANAS:
1- Paris - Pointe-à-Pitre: 1,098,322 
2- Paris - Fort-de-France: 976,978 
3- London-Barbados: 492,221
4- Madrid-Havana: 401,312
5- Madrid-Santo Domingo: 330,293
6- Paris-Punta Cana (Dominican Republic): 309,950
7- Paris-Havana: 273,245
8- Paris-St Martin: 268,073
9- Amsterdam-Paramaribo: 264,489
10- Madrid-Punta Cana (Dominican Republic): 261,895


----------



## brisavoine

INDIAN SUBCONTINENT:
1- London-Delhi: 979 146 
2- London-Mumbai: 958,103 
3- Frankfurt-Mumbai: 373,632 
4- Frankfurt-Delhi: 318,130 
5- Paris-Delhi: 260,202 
6- Amsterdam-Delhi: 224,376 
7- London-Male (Maldives): 206,739 
8- Frankfurt-Bangalore: 200,270 
9- Manchester-Islamabad: 178,684 
10- London-Colombo: 169,469

EASTERN & SOUTH-EASTERN ASIA:
1- London-Hong Kong: 1,801,520 
2- London-Singapore: 1,507,032 
3- London-Bangkok: 991,862 
4- Paris-Tokyo: 849,055 
5- Frankfurt-Singapore: 846,632 
6- London-Tokyo: 682,830 
7- Frankfurt-Bangkok: 670,423 
8- Paris-Hong Kong: 601,638 
9- London-Kuala Lumpur: 596,877 
10- Frankfurt-Tokyo: 583,751

OCEANIA:
No direct routes. Passengers appear in the routes London-Dubai, London-Hong Kong, London-Singapore, Paris-Tokyo, Paris-Los Angeles, etc.


----------



## brisavoine

MIDDLE-EAST & NORTH AFRICA:
1- London-Dubai: 2,604,284 
2- Paris-Casablanca: 1,148,034 
3- Düsseldorf/Cologne-Antalya: 1,072,463 
4- Paris-Tunis: 999,046 
5- Paris-Algiers: 954,334 
6- London-Istanbul: 936,266 
7- Düsseldorf/Cologne-Istanbul: 887,986 
8- Frankfurt-Istanbul: 842,809 
9- Paris-Marrakech: 772,409 
10- Paris-Istanbul: 767,802 

SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA:
1- Paris-St Denis (Réunion): 887,251
2- London-Johannesburg: 886,148 
3- Paris-Mauritius: 505,684
4- London-Cape Town: 491,872 
5- London-Nairobi: 469,193 
6- London-Lagos: 452,434 
7- Frankfurt-Johannesburg: 416,903 
8- Amsterdam-Nairobi: 405,544 
9- Lisbon-Luanda: 345,438
10- Paris-Johannesburg: 320,006


----------



## brisavoine

Top 10 air routes towards the BRIC countries. @Momo1435: that's where you can see that the routes dominating mainland China are in fact Frankfurt and Paris, London-Hong Kong being a special case due in part to transit between Australia/New Zealand and Britain.

BRAZIL:
1- Paris-São-Paulo: 537,505 
2- Paris-Rio de Janeiro: 510,719 
3- Madrid-São-Paulo: 494,359 
4- Frankfurt-São-Paulo: 444,907 
5- London-São-Paulo: 412,442 
6- Lisbon-São-Paulo: 275,250 
7- Lisbon-Rio de Janeiro: 260,303 
8- Amsterdam-São-Paulo: 198,110 
9- Milan-São-Paulo: 184,132 
10- Rome-São-Paulo: 180,967

RUSSIA:
1- London-Moscow: 671,258 
2- Paris-Moscow: 642,729 
3- Frankfurt-Moscow: 610,595 
4- Munich-Moscow: 494,515 
5- Vienna-Moscow: 465,330
6- Barcelona-Moscow: 390,361 
7- Berlin-Moscow: 387,808 
8- Rome-Moscow: 324,935
9- Düsseldorf-Moscow: 322,561 
10- Amsterdam-Moscow: 314,206

INDIA:
1- London-Delhi: 979 146 
2- London-Mumbai: 958,103 
3- Frankfurt-Mumbai: 373,632 
4- Frankfurt-Delhi: 318,130 
5- Paris-Delhi: 260,202 
6- Amsterdam-Delhi: 224,376 
7- Frankfurt-Bangalore: 200,270 
8- Frankfurt-Chennai/Madras: 162,323 
9- London-Bangalore: 157,140
10- Amsterdam-Mumbai: 156,733

CHINA:
1- London-Hong Kong: 1,801,520 
2- Paris-Hong Kong: 601,638 
3- Frankfurt-Beijing: 539,620 
4- Frankfurt-Shanghai: 528,955 
5- Paris-Shanghai: 520,981 
6- Frankfurt-Hong Kong: 446,149 
7- Paris-Beijing: 435,857 
8- Amsterdam-Hong Kong: 428,666 
9- Amsterdam-Beijing: 335,157 
10- London-Shanghai: 331,511


----------



## [email protected]

The only surprises are the relatively low passenger numbers from all European airports to Tokyo and the fact that Frankfurt-Bangkok isn't significantly higher in the list.



brisavoine said:


> London-Hong Kong being a special case due in part to transit between Australia/New Zealand and Britain.


Actually the vast majority of flights from the UK to Australia/NZ go via Singapore and not via HK.


----------



## Momo1435

brisavoine said:


> Same for London. All the top London routes are with ex-colonies (whereas the top Paris route is with a city that was never a French colony: NYC). The first route between London and a non-former British colonial city is London-Los Angeles (although of course LA is Anglophone and part of and Anglo-Saxon, otherwise it would be London-Bangkok).


I hope you do understand that cities like Hong Kong, Singapore and Delhi are on a completely different level then cities like Pointe-à-Pitre, Fort-de-France and St Denis (Réunion). 

They might be big routes for Paris, but since they don't have direct flights to any other European city outside france they might be a big routes out of Paris but are internationally completely irrelevant.

And that's the same reason why Frankfurt seems to have bigger important international routes then Paris. Which is not that surprising since Frankfurt is the 2nd financial city in Europe after London. 

And that's reflected in the list when you take these smaller destinations plus the Mediterranean cities and Moscow, it has significantly less blue. 

1- London-New York: 3,643,080 passengers
2- London-Dubai: 2,604,284 
3- London-Hong Kong: 1,801,520 
4- Paris-New York: 1,635,157 
5- London-Singapore: 1,507,032 
6- London-Los Angeles: 1,419,144 
7- Paris-Montréal: 1,242,821 
8- Frankfurt-New York: 1,235,660 
9- London-Toronto: 1,223,711 

11- London-Chicago: 1,138,579 


14- London-Washington: 1,017,830 

16- London-Bangkok: 991,862 
17- London-Delhi: 979,146 

19- London-Mumbai: 958,103 


22- Frankfurt-Chicago: 888,936 


25- London-Johannesburg: 886,148 
26- London-Boston: 866,414 
27- London-San Francisco: 860,617 
28- Madrid-Buenos Aires: 857,851
29- Rome-New York: 851,527 
30- Paris-Tokyo: 849,055 
31- Madrid-New York: 848,538 
32- Frankfurt-Singapore: 846,632 

34- London-Miami: 821,983 
35- Amsterdam-New York: 812,399
36- London-Orlando: 792,418 



41- Paris-Dubai: 716,892 

43- London-Tokyo: 682,830 
44- Frankfurt-Dubai: 679,173 
45- Frankfurt-Washington: 676,592 

47- Frankfurt-Bangkok: 670,423 
48- Dublin-New York: 654,519


----------



## bangalore

brisavoine said:


> OCEANIA:
> No direct routes. Passengers appear in the routes London-Dubai, London-Hong Kong, London-Singapore, Paris-Tokyo, Paris-Los Angeles, etc.


The lion's share of the numbers on the Dubai routes are transit traffic - onwards mainly to Indian subcontinent followed by SE Asia, Oceania, China etc


----------



## brisavoine

Momo1435 said:


> And that's reflected in the list when you take these smaller destinations plus the Mediterranean cities and Moscow, it has significantly less blue.


And traffic from Paris to North Africa and Moscow is less "international" than from Frankfurt to the cities you listed? :laugh:

Besides, these top 50 routes are only the tip of the iceberg. Further down the list you find many other destinations (for example Paris has most of the traffic to Vietnam, much more traffic to Seoul and Osaka than London, more traffic to Latin America than London and Frankfurt, etc).

Overall, Paris has much more traffic than Frankfut: in 2011 there were 91,519,479 air passengers in Paris vs. 53,009,221 air passengers in Frankfurt. And even if we remove the domestic French flights and flights to overseas France, there were 71,307,512 air passengers on purely international flights to and from Paris, whereas there were only 49,477,184 air passengers on international flights to and from Frankfurt.

Paris and Frankfurt frankly don't play in the same category, whichever way you look at it.


----------



## [email protected]

brisavoine said:


> And traffic from Paris to North Africa and Moscow is less "international" than from Frankfurt to the cities you listed? :laugh:
> .


But neither of them are longhaul routes.


----------



## brisavoine

Looking at the 2010 figures from the European statistics agency, if we take only the non-European routes (incl. Russia and Turkey in the non-European routes), and if we exclude the French overseas departments from the non-European routes, we find the following figures:
1- London airports: 45,243,972 passengers to and from airports outside of Europe and the French overseas departments
2- Paris airports: 33,270,805
3- Frankfurt airports: 24,957,056
4- Amsterdam airport: 17,689,654
5- Madrid airport: 11,485,894

Now if we're even more strict and exclude Russia, Turkey, North Africa, and the French overseas departments, we find this:
1- London airports: 41,015,476 passengers to and from airports outside of Europe, Turkey, North Africa, and French overseas departments
2- Paris airports: 24,446,367
3- Frankfurt airports: 21,509,786 
4- Amsterdam airport: 14,956,793 
5- Madrid airport: 9,811,287

So I frankly can't see how we can say that Paris's air traffic is less international than Frankfurt's.


----------



## brisavoine

Traffic between each European metropolitan area and the regions of the world outside Europe in 2010. I give the top 10 for each region of the world. NOTE THAT I don't have data for Zurich airport, so it's missing from the lists here (but all the data that I posted before in this thread included Zurich).

NORTH AMERICA:
1- London airports: 17,086,856
2- Frankfurt airports: 7,956,297
3- Paris airports: 7,762,634
4- Amsterdam airport: 5,314,479
5- Rome airports: 2,515,727
6- Munich airport: 2,256,446
7- Madrid airport: 2,132,923
8- Manchester airport: 1,473,950
9- Dublin airport: 1,466,775
10- Brussels airports: 1,393,417

LATIN AMERICA:
1- Madrid airport: 5,138,366 
2- Paris airports: 2,267,208 
3- Lisbon airport: 1,454,568 
4- Frankfurt airports: 1,208,931 
5- Amsterdam airport: 842,653 
6- London airports: 792,892 
7- Rome airports: 655,204 
8- Milan airports: 308,588 
9- Barcelona airport: 190,921 
10- Manchester airport: 154,577 

CARIBBEAN & GUIANAS:
1- Paris airports: 3,419,938
2- London airports: 1,745,874
3- Amsterdam airport: 1,152,491
4- Madrid airport: 1,080,995
5- Frankfurt airports: 496,015
6- Manchester airport: 447,689
7- Milan airport: 233,533
8- Cologne/Düsseldorf airport: 158,775
9- Brussels airport: 121,351
10- Munich airport: 105,723


----------



## Momo1435

[email protected] said:


> But neither of them are longhaul routes.


Indeed, on international long haul routes that are offered to all major European cities Paris falls far behind London and is on par with Frankfurt.


----------



## brisavoine

INDIAN SUBCONTINENT:
1- London airports: 3,169,362
2- Frankfurt airports: 1,512,037
3- Paris airports: 691,508
4- Brussels airports: 438,566
5- Amsterdam airport: 398,091
6- Manchester airport: 347,642
7- Munich airport: 268,866
8- Milan airports: 159,558
9- Rome airports: 154,770
10- Helsinki airport: 136,139

EASTERN & SOUTH-EASTERN ASIA (this includes transit passengers to Oceania):
1- London airports: 6,532,208
2- Frankfurt airports: 4,921,368
3- Paris airports: 4,713,366
4- Amsterdam airport: 3,468,252
5- Munich airport: 1,436,718
6- Helsinki airport: 1,272,633
7- Rome airports: 1,091,675
8- Copenhagen airport: 807,414
9- Milan airports: 648,708
10- Vienna airport: 621,727


----------



## brisavoine

MIDDLE-EAST & NORTH AFRICA (this includes Turkey):
1- Paris airports: 19,956,614
2- London airports: 14,348,714
3- Frankfurt airports: 7,517,076
4- Amsterdam airport: 5,519,202
5- Brussels airports: 5,010,963
6- Cologne/Düsseldorf: 4,985,761
7- Rome airports: 4,901,403
8- Milan airports: 4,246,983
9- Manchester airport: 3,846,979
10- Munich airport: 3,832,578

SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA:
1- Paris airports: 4,417,876
2- London airports: 3,300,142 
3- Amsterdam airport: 1,559,497 
4- Frankfurt airports: 1,324,501 
5- Lisbon airport: 791,256 
6- Brussels airports: 632,687 
7- Rome airports: 477,620 
8- Madrid airport: 344,463 
9- Milan airports: 269,052 
10- Munich airport: 268,701


----------



## brisavoine

Traffic between each European metropolitan area and the BRIC countries in 2010. Zurich is missing.

BRAZIL:
1- Lisbon airport: 1,357,318
2- Paris airports: 1,156,940
3- Madrid airport: 707,392
4- Frankfurt airports: 528,980
5- London airports: 502,235
6- Milan airports: 247,983
7- Amsterdam airport: 222,883
8- Rome airports: 213,729
9- Porto airport: 105,649
10- Munich airport: 99,134

RUSSIA:
1- Frankfurt airports: 1,031,611
2- Paris airports: 822,170
3- London airports: 749,883
4- Prague airport: 734,847
5- Munich airport: 687,492
6- Vienna airport: 620,803
7- Barcelona airport: 613,292
8- Berlin airports: 564,928
9- Cologne/Düsseldorf airports: 548,843
10- Amsterdam airport: 423,763

INDIA:
1- London airports: 2,429,572
2- Frankfurt airports: 1,335,370
3- Paris airports: 523,102
4- Brussels airports: 434,167
5- Amsterdam airport: 384,487
6- Munich airport: 242,815
7- Helsinki airport: 136,139
8- Vienna airport: 115,874
9- Manchester airport: 51,701
10- Nottingham airport: 7,818

CHINA:
Mainland China:
1- Frankfurt airports: 1,184,511
2- Paris airports: 1,116,782
3- Amsterdam airport: 747,055
4- London airports: 606,294
5- Munich airport: 396,296
6- Helsinki airport: 307,398
7- Copenhagen airport: 156,238
8- Rome airports: 143,622
9- Stockholm airport: 114,693
10- Vienna airport: 108,251

Mainland China + HK (this includes transit passengers to Oceania):
1- London airports: 2,407,813
2- Paris airports: 1,718,368
3- Frankfurt airport: 1,630,660
4- Amsterdam airport: 1,175,721
5- Munich airport: 571,507
6- Helsinki airport: 468,000
7- Rome airports: 321,589
8- Milan airports: 178,512
9- Copenhagen airport: 156,514
10- Stockholm airport: 114,693


----------



## krnboy1009

Momo1435 said:


> That's also the case for Istanbul, but since these numbers are based on EU statistics it's only logical that they aren't counted.


Makes sense I suppose


----------



## brisavoine

I made this map based on the 2010 figures. It shows the relative domination of London and Paris on the air traffic.

Red: countries and territories where there were more passengers to and from London than to and from Paris in 2010.
Blue: countries and territories where there were more passengers to and from Paris than to and from London in 2010.


----------



## krnboy1009

Many of the reds are former British colonies. Interesting...


----------



## arran21

brisavoine said:


> I made this map based on the 2010 figures. It shows the relative domination of London and Paris on the air traffic.
> 
> Red: countries and territories where there were more passengers to and from London than to and from Paris in 2010.
> Blue: countries and territories where there were more passengers to and from Paris than to and from London in 2010.


Brisavoine, why are you purposely trying to lie to people, more people travel from London to China than from Paris to China, Hong long is not used as a stop over to Australia, people going from Britain to Australia go via Singapore, not Hong Kong, people going from Britain to Hong Kong are there for business and pleasure, and the number of British people traveling to China is much more than French traveling to China, so why would you porposely try to mislead people, is it because of your rabid nationalism, this forum is not the place for your insecurities, so from now on, try not to lie, Britain is the aviation capitol of the world, but I am not a nationalist like you who parrots on about false non achievments all the time


----------



## brisavoine

arran21 said:


> more people travel from London to China than from Paris to China


Uh, no. More people travel from London to Hong Kong than from Paris to Hong Kong, in part because of transfers to Australia/NZ, in part because of the ancient colonial links between HK and Britain (Hong-Kongese community in Great Britain, etc.), but more people travel from Paris to Mainland China than from London to Mainland China.

In 2010, there were 428,659 air passengers between Paris and Beijing vs. only 275,058 between London and Beijing. There were 520,981 air passengers between Paris and Shanghai vs. only 331,756 between London and Shanghai. There were 158,016 air passengers between Paris and Guangzhou vs. 0 between London and Guangzhou.

Paris now has 4 air connections with Mainland China (Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and Wuhan), and soon 5, whereas London has only 2 air connections with Mainland China (Beijing and Shanghai).

Several articles in the English press have actually lamented that. For example this one: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/9280832/Chinese-aircraft-giant-snubs-Britain.html


----------



## GTR66

That is a pretty colorful map. The British Empire was pretty large and cover more present day countries than France's empire. So it's natural that BA would dominant in former colonies countries and vice versa for AF.


----------



## Momo1435

China Southern has a Guangzhou – London flight, that's the 3rd Chinese destination from London. And later this year BA will also start Chengdu. 

BA hasn't focussed on China as Air France/KLM and Lufthansa, that's also because there is no mainland Chinese airline that is a member of Oneworld. And the slot restrictions at Heathrow prevent the Chinese airlines to open new routes to London's main airport. 

Talking about Lufthansa, it's Germany that has the most connections and passengers between Europe and China. 

Frankfurt has Beijing, Shanghai, Chengdu, Nanjing, Shenyang. Plus Munich has Shanghai and Beijing and Berlin & Duesseldorf have flights to Beijing. 

This article has a full analysis of the Europe to China market.
http://centreforaviation.com/analys...s-british-airwaysoneworld-play-catch-up-99050


Interesting fact, Amsterdam has the most direct mainland Chinese destinations, 6 in total. They also have Hong Kong and are the only European airport that has a direct flight to Taipei. It might not have the biggest capacity in seats between the city and China, it does have the most direct coverage.


----------



## brisavoine

Momo1435 said:


> They also have Hong Kong and are the only European airport that has a direct flight to Taipei.


Paris CDG also has direct flights to Taipei. In fact I flew on one of those flights.


----------



## arran21

brisavoine said:


> Uh, no. More people travel from London to Hong Kong than from Paris to Hong Kong, in part because of transfers to Australia/NZ, in part because of the ancient colonial links between HK and Britain (Hong-Kongese community in Great Britain, etc.), but more people travel from Paris to Mainland China than from London to Mainland China.
> 
> In 2010, there were 428,659 air passengers between Paris and Beijing vs. only 275,058 between London and Beijing. There were 520,981 air passengers between Paris and Shanghai vs. only 331,756 between London and Shanghai. There were 158,016 air passengers between Paris and Guangzhou vs. 0 between London and Guangzhou.
> 
> Paris now has 4 air connections with Mainland China (Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and Wuhan), and soon 5, whereas London has only 2 air connections with Mainland China (Beijing and Shanghai).
> 
> Several articles in the English press have actually lamented that. For example this one: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/9280832/Chinese-aircraft-giant-snubs-Britain.html


No, no and no, is lying a mental illness of yours, Hong Kong IS NOT used as a stop over to Australia, do you understand, or shall I draw you a picture, people going from Britain to Australia go via Singapore, not Hong Kong, I repeat, as you ate obviously not very intelligent, Hong Kong is not used as a stop over to Australia or new Zealand, Singapore is. People traveling from London to Hong Kong are going to stay in Hong Kong, do you understand now, gong Kong is China, so mote brits go to chins than French, now what will you say, I have the airline routes infringe of me, and Hong Kong IS NOT used as a stop over to Australia, singapore is, so that false map you made to try and make France look more important, was just another of your pathetic lies resulting from your massive inferiority complex about Britain, you can't hard Britain just because they are more powerfull and important, get over it and grue up, everyone is sick of your nationalistic nonsense, except ky, your just mediocre, so leave it at that and stop trying to ruin every thread with your constant trolling, or I will report you


----------



## arran21

brisavoine said:


> Uh, no. More people travel from London to Hong Kong than from Paris to Hong Kong, in part because of transfers to Australia/NZ, in part because of the ancient colonial links between HK and Britain (Hong-Kongese community in Great Britain, etc.), but more people travel from Paris to Mainland China than from London to Mainland China.
> 
> In 2010, there were 428,659 air passengers between Paris and Beijing vs. only 275,058 between London and Beijing. There were 520,981 air passengers between Paris and Shanghai vs. only 331,756 between London and Shanghai. There were 158,016 air passengers between Paris and Guangzhou vs. 0 between London and Guangzhou.
> 
> Paris now has 4 air connections with Mainland China (Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and Wuhan), and soon 5, whereas London has only 2 air connections with Mainland China (Beijing and Shanghai).
> 
> Several articles in the English press have actually lamented that. For example this one: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/9280832/Chinese-aircraft-giant-snubs-Britain.html


Hong Kong is part of China, so more British people go to China than French, its not my fault that you don't like to read the truth, Hong Kong is China, so more brits go to China that French, do you understand now, or are you still having difficulty, in nearly all the important aviation destinations in the world, more brits travel to them than French, that's a fact, France is eurocentric, but Britain is global, it always has been, that's why they created so many countries and had the biggest ever empire, started the industrial revolution, modern world, sport, inventions, medicine and have global language so it makes sense that Britain is the aviation capitol of the world, now the dark days of colonialism are over, thankfully, for Britain and France, Britain remains the world leader in aviation, with six airports in London, only two in Paris, we just built the most expensive airport terminal at heathrow, terminal five, and also have just completed another mega heathrow terminal, at terminal two, plus a new mega airport will also be built, our other cities also have much bigger and bussier airports than other French cities. You see if you want to constantly be an immature nationalist, others can be too, and as I'm British, it is obvious who will win, so please dont respond and try not to be so insecure and nationalistic, you have allready got a bad reputation on this forum, even amoung other French, peace, and learn to relax, France is also a great country and don't need you to constantly aggresively promote them, France will be just as great without your propoganda


----------



## arran21

brisavoine said:


> Paris CDG also has direct flights to Taipei. In fact I flew on one of those flights.


By the way, new airport routes between Britain and mainland China are opening every year, so we may allready have more routes than France, or at the very least, we soon will have, as London is chinas, and the worlds, number one investment as London is the financial capitol of the world, but I'm sure you know this


----------



## arran21

Momo1435 said:


> China Southern has a Guangzhou &#150; London flight, that's the 3rd Chinese destination from London. And later this year BA will also start Chengdu.
> 
> BA hasn't focussed on China as Air France/KLM and Lufthansa, that's also because there is no mainland Chinese airline that is a member of Oneworld. And the slot restrictions at Heathrow prevent the Chinese airlines to open new routes to London's main airport.
> 
> Talking about Lufthansa, it's Germany that has the most connections and passengers between Europe and China.
> 
> Frankfurt has Beijing, Shanghai, Chengdu, Nanjing, Shenyang. Plus Munich has Shanghai and Beijing and Berlin & Duesseldorf have flights to Beijing.
> 
> This article has a full analysis of the Europe to China market.
> http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/europes-airlines-in-china-lufthansa-and-af-klm-largest-as-british-airwaysoneworld-play-catch-up-99050
> 
> Interesting fact, Amsterdam has the most direct mainland Chinese destinations, 6 in total. They also have Hong Kong and are the only European airport that has a direct flight to Taipei. It might not have the biggest capacity in seats between the city and China, it does have the most direct coverage.


You're right, Frankfurt airport has a very bright future, that's why Britain is building a new airport (hopefully), but in Europe everything moves so slow unfortunately


----------



## arran21

brisavoine said:


> I made this map based on the 2010 figures. It shows the relative domination of London and Paris on the air traffic.
> 
> Red: countries and territories where there were more passengers to and from London than to and from Paris in 2010.
> Blue: countries and territories where there were more passengers to and from Paris than to and from London in 2010.


In that map, China should be red, not blue, east Asia is the future, and European countries need to increase flight routes from our cities


----------



## hkskyline

arran21 said:


> No, no and no, is lying a mental illness of yours, Hong Kong IS NOT used as a stop over to Australia, do you understand, or shall I draw you a picture, people going from Britain to Australia go via Singapore, not Hong Kong, I repeat, as you ate obviously not very intelligent, Hong Kong is not used as a stop over to Australia or new Zealand, Singapore is. People traveling from London to Hong Kong are going to stay in Hong Kong, do you understand now, gong Kong is China, so mote brits go to chins than French, now what will you say, I have the airline routes infringe of me, and Hong Kong IS NOT used as a stop over to Australia, singapore is, so that false map you made to try and make France look more important, was just another of your pathetic lies resulting from your massive inferiority complex about Britain, you can't hard Britain just because they are more powerfull and important, get over it and grue up, everyone is sick of your nationalistic nonsense, except ky, your just mediocre, so leave it at that and stop trying to ruin every thread with your constant trolling, or I will report you


Actually, Europeans and Australians have a fair bit of choice in how to structure their kangaroo route stops. New entrants include China Southern, who routes passengers through their hub in Guangzhou. Hong Kong has traditionally gotten a small slice of this traffic. Qantas used to run Australia-Hong Kong-London flights, with full 5th freedoms out of HKG. I actually took this 5th freedom leg a couple of years ago on their 747, and got upgraded to Y+ on my discount Y fare because the back was so full.

Virgin Atlantic still flies the kangaroo route with the Hong Kong stopover

A review on the different kangaroo route choices, from Abu Dhabi to Kuala Lumpur

Do you have any actual statistics on who are the main competitors on the kangaroo route? I would've thought Dubai has become the top stopover option by now.


----------



## Momo1435

^^ With the recent Qantas move to Dubai it surely has become the top stopover location, although Singapore with SA and BA is still big of course. 




brisavoine said:


> Paris CDG also has direct flights to Taipei. In fact I flew on one of those flights.


Direct flights via Bangkok, only KLM offers non-stop direct flights between Europe and Taiwan.


----------



## brisavoine

arran21 said:


> No, no and no, is lying a mental illness of yours, Hong Kong IS NOT used as a stop over to Australia, do you understand, or shall I draw you a picture, people going from Britain to Australia go via Singapore, not Hong Kong, I repeat, as you ate obviously not very intelligent, Hong Kong is not used as a stop over to Australia or new Zealand, Singapore is. People traveling from London to Hong Kong are going to stay in Hong Kong, do you understand now, gong Kong is China, so mote brits go to chins than French, now what will you say, I have the airline routes infringe of me, and Hong Kong IS NOT used as a stop over to Australia, singapore is, so that false map you made to try and make France look more important, was just another of your pathetic lies resulting from your massive inferiority complex about Britain, you can't hard Britain just because they are more powerfull and important, get over it and grue up, everyone is sick of your nationalistic nonsense, except ky, your just mediocre, so leave it at that and stop trying to ruin every thread with your constant trolling, or I will report you


----------



## brisavoine

arran21 said:


> in nearly all the important aviation destinations in the world, more brits travel to them than French, that's a fact


Uh, no.

In 2011, there were 1,136,703 air passengers between France and Russia vs. only 863,819 between the UK and Russia.

In 2011, there were 1,034,585 air passengers between France and Brazil vs. only 526,123 between the UK and Brazil.

In 2011, there were 1,198,228 air passengers between France and Mainland China vs. only 662,924 between the UK and Mainland China.

That's already 3 BRICs out of 4 where France dominates the UK. 

And then it doesn't stop there.

In 2011, there were 15,273,588 air passengers between France and Africa (not even counting the overseas departments in Africa!) vs. only 8,367,653 between the UK and Africa.

In 2011, there were 998,453 air passengers between France and Japan vs. only 653,121 between the UK and Japan.

In 2011, there were 459,867 air passengers between France and South Korea vs. only 311,096 between the UK and South Korea.

So that's quite a few emerging and developed markets where France dominates the UK.


----------



## dydyusa

arran21 said:


> No, no and no, is lying a mental illness of yours, Hong Kong IS NOT used as a stop over to Australia, do you understand, or shall I draw you a picture, people going from Britain to Australia go via Singapore, not Hong Kong, I repeat, as you ate obviously not very intelligent, Hong Kong is not used as a stop over to Australia or new Zealand, Singapore is. People traveling from London to Hong Kong are going to stay in Hong Kong, do you understand now, gong Kong is China, so mote brits go to chins than French, now what will you say, I have the airline routes infringe of me, and Hong Kong IS NOT used as a stop over to Australia, singapore is, so that false map you made to try and make France look more important, was just another of your pathetic lies resulting from your massive inferiority complex about Britain, you can't hard Britain just because they are more powerfull and important, get over it and grue up, everyone is sick of your nationalistic nonsense, except ky, your just mediocre, so leave it at that and stop trying to ruin every thread with your constant trolling, or I will report you


----------



## caserass

arran21 said:


> That false map you made to try and make France look more important, was just another of your pathetic lies resulting from your massive inferiority complex about Britain, you can't hard Britain just because they are more powerfull and important, get over it and grue up, everyone is sick of your nationalistic nonsense, except ky, your just mediocre, so leave it at that and stop trying to ruin every thread with your constant trolling, or I will report you


Lol
:lol:

Too much non-sense


----------



## Space Invader

Oh dear.. I thought the aviation forum would be the last one to see french-british rivalry.
How naive was I...


----------



## Avemano

arran21 is so cute :hug:


----------



## Momo1435

The fun thing about it that you can bend this fight in two ways.


Biggest European Airports in passenger numbers:

#1 London Heathrow
#2 Paris CDG

Biggest European Airports in aircraft movements:

#1 Paris CDG
#3 London Heathrow


~~

Biggest airline groups in Europe:

#2 AF/KLM
#5 IAG

Cumulative size of airlines per country:

UK > France


And so on....


----------



## brisavoine

^^Yeah, but in the future Paris will be ahead of London in terms of passengers too, because there is more capacity at CDG than at Heathrow.


----------



## GTR66

Momo1435 said:


> The fun thing about it that you can bend this fight in two ways.
> 
> 
> Biggest European Airports in passenger numbers:
> 
> #1 London Heathrow
> #2 Paris CDG
> 
> Biggest European Airports in aircraft movements:
> 
> #1 Paris CDG
> #3 London Heathrow
> 
> 
> London has bigger planes with more capcity. Paris-CDG has more runway space and smaller planes.


----------



## Momo1435

brisavoine said:


> ^^Yeah, but in the future Paris will be ahead of London in terms of passengers too, because there is more capacity at CDG than at Heathrow.


Well, if you don't count Gatwick, Luton, Stansted, Southend and City, or even a future new airport in the Thames estuary maybe, but... 

Currently the combined London airports see 45% more passengers then the combined Paris airports, in actual numbers that's a difference 40 million passengers. London is actually the #1 city on the list of the world's busiest city airport system. As the #5 on the same list Paris is still one of the biggest air travel markets in the world, but it's simply not as big as London.

The big difference in size might be for a good part explained by the large share of LCCs in London, EasyJet and Ryanair have there main bases in London. So that put London and Paris closer together when it comes to intercontinental travel, but with the difference of 40 million passengers I have no doubt that London still wins if you see it as a competition as you clearly do.

I don't really care, as long as my local airport Schiphol offers good connections to Tokyo either directly or with a connecting flight I'm perfectly happy.


----------



## hkskyline

We need to be a bit more careful with the number crunching. After all, we're talking about Europe to non-Europe flights.


----------



## brisavoine

hkskyline said:


> We need to be a bit more careful with the number crunching. After all, we're talking about Europe to non-Europe flights.


What do you mean?


----------



## noir-dresses

The London-Dubai route should jump up at least another 250,000 with the addition of Qantas's Falcon route.



brisavoine said:


> The EU's statistics agency has published fascinating detailed statistics about passager traffic between each European airport and all its counterparts in the world. The last fully available figures are from 2010.
> 
> I've compiled the busiest air routes between European cities and cities outside of Europe based on passenger traffic in 2010. Europe in this definition excludes Russia and Turkey, so Russian and Turkish cities appear as cities outside of Europe. I've also grouped all the airports of a given metropolitan area together, to better reflect the actual intensity of traffic between cities.
> 
> NOTE THAT there are no direct flights between Europe and Oceania. Therefore, passengers between London and Australia/New Zealand appear in the London-Dubai, London-Hong Kong, and London-Singapore air routes. Passengers between Paris and New Caledonia/French Polynesia appear in the Paris-Tokyo and Paris-Los Angeles air routes.
> 
> I tried to add up all the airports properly, but if you think I forgot something, please let me know.
> 
> Enjoy! :cheers:
> 
> Busiest air routes between Europe and outside Europe in 2010 (passenger traffic):
> 1- London-New York: 3,643,080 passengers
> 2- London-Dubai: 2,604,284
> 3- London-Hong Kong: 1,801,520
> 4- Paris-New York: 1,635,157
> 5- London-Singapore: 1,507,032
> 6- London-Los Angeles: 1,419,144
> 7- Paris-Montréal: 1,242,821
> 8- Frankfurt-New York: 1,235,660
> 9- London-Toronto: 1,223,711
> 10- Paris-Casablanca: 1,148,034
> 11- London-Chicago: 1,138,579
> 12- Paris - Pointe-à-Pitre: 1,098,322
> 13- Düsseldorf/Cologne-Antalya: 1,072,463
> 14- London-Washington: 1,017,830
> 15- Paris-Tunis: 999,046
> 16- London-Bangkok: 991,862
> 17- London-Delhi: 979,146
> 18- Paris - Fort-de-France: 976,978
> 19- London-Mumbai: 958,103
> 20- Paris-Algiers: 954,334
> 21- London-Istanbul: 936,266
> 22- Frankfurt-Chicago: 888,936
> 23- Düsseldorf/Cologne-Istanbul: 887,986
> 24- Paris-St Denis (Réunion): 887,251
> 25- London-Johannesburg: 886,148
> 26- London-Boston: 866,414
> 27- London-San Francisco: 860,617
> 28- Madrid-Buenos Aires: 857,851
> 29- Rome-New York: 851,527
> 30- Paris-Tokyo: 849,055
> 31- Madrid-New York: 848,538
> 32- Frankfurt-Singapore: 846,632
> 33- Frankfurt-Istanbul: 842,809
> 34- London-Miami: 821,983
> 35- Amsterdam-New York: 812,399
> 36- London-Orlando: 792,418
> 37- Paris-Marrakech: 772,409
> 38- Paris-Istanbul: 767,802
> 39- London-Tel Aviv: 730,168
> 40- Paris-Tel Aviv: 724,104
> 41- Paris-Dubai: 716,892
> 42- Amsterdam-Istanbul: 703,112
> 43- London-Tokyo: 682,830
> 44- Frankfurt-Dubai: 679,173
> 45- Frankfurt-Washington: 676,592
> 46- London-Moscow: 671,258
> 47- Frankfurt-Bangkok: 670,423
> 48- Dublin-New York: 654,519
> 49- Munich-Istanbul: 643,403
> 50- Paris-Moscow: 642,729
> 
> I'll add the 10 busiest air routes for each region of the world later.


----------



## hkskyline

brisavoine said:


> What do you mean?


Was referring to Luton, Stansted, and City figures. The number of non-Europe destinations amongst these 3 airports is miniscule, so it would not be fair to compare the aggregate total of all passenger use and add it up amongst the airports. The right and relevant data subset ought to be used.


----------



## Kolony

After seeing the conflict here, I have decided to show which regions are served mainly by which airport. 

Note - Turkey is included with the Middle East and Australasia & Oceania are flights with stopovers. 

Paris - CDG / London - LHR 

Europe (Other) - 198 / Europe (Other) - 94
Former USSR - 12 / Former USSR - 10
North America - 48 / North America - 60
Latin America - 19 / Latin America - 9
Caribbean - 16 / Caribbean - 3
North Africa - 48 / North Africa - 12
Middle East - 35 / Middle East - 28
Sub-Saharan Africa - 28 / Sub-Saharan Africa- 19
Indian Subcontinent - 9 / Indian Subcontinent - 17
Southeastern & Eastern Asia- 31 / S & E Asia - 26
Australasia & Oceania - 2 / Australasia & Oceania - 5

All the statistics are from the destinations each Airline at the airports serve.
P.S. There could be only one destination but a number of airlines serving it (i.e. Papeete).


----------



## brisavoine

^^There are more than 2 destinations in Oceania that are served from Paris CDG.


----------



## SE9

Kolony said:


> After seeing the conflict here, I have decided to show which regions are served mainly by which airport.
> 
> Note - Turkey is included with the Middle East and Australasia & Oceania are flights with stopovers.
> 
> Paris - CDG / London - LHR
> 
> Europe (Other) - 198 / Europe (Other) - 94
> Former USSR - 12 / Former USSR - 10
> North America - 48 / North America - 60
> Latin America - 19 / Latin America - 9
> Caribbean - 16 / Caribbean - 3
> North Africa - 48 / North Africa - 12
> Middle East - 35 / Middle East - 28
> Sub-Saharan Africa - 28 / Sub-Saharan Africa- 19
> Indian Subcontinent - 9 / Indian Subcontinent - 17
> Southeastern & Eastern Asia- 31 / S & E Asia - 26
> Australasia & Oceania - 2 / Australasia & Oceania - 5
> 
> All the statistics are from the destinations each Airline at the airports serve.


For some of those regions, other London airports serve more destinations than Heathrow.

For example, London Gatwick Airport serves more destinations in the Caribbean than London Heathrow Airport.

The lesser airports shouldn't be forgotten, especially in the case of London where the lesser airports constitute near half of London's total passenger numbers. My last 3 flights outside Europe have coincidentally all been from Gatwick (the last one being to Charlotte, USA).


----------



## fieldsofdreams

brisavoine said:


> ^^There are more than 2 destinations in Oceania that are served from Paris CDG.


First time contributing here, and I've looked at your claim. It looks like there is only one destination left operating between Paris/CDG and Oceania. It is operated by two carriers, Air France and Air Tahiti Nui, and the routing is *Paris CDG—Los Angeles—Papeete*. Before, though, Air Austral operated a long, multi-leg service from Paris/CDG, which not only served Saint-Denis in the Reunion, but also Sydney and Noumea in New Caledonia, but that flight has been axed. However, there is serious competition with the Middle Eastern airline market between Paris and Oceania, especially Australia, that it looks like all journeys require a stop or two somewhere to Down Under.


----------



## Kolony

@Brisavoine Noumea and Sydney are no longer accessible from CDG on an scheduled basis (You would be required to switch planes to do so).

@SE9 I right now have only done the two biggest ones.


----------



## Kolony

P.S. 2010 was long ago. This information should be updated to a more modern list (i.e. 2012).


----------



## brisavoine

fieldsofdreams said:


> First time contributing here, and I've looked at your claim. It looks like there is only one destination left operating between Paris/CDG and Oceania. It is operated by two carriers, Air France and Air Tahiti Nui, and the routing is *Paris CDG—Los Angeles—Papeete*.


So my friend who returns every year to his native New Caledonia by flying from Paris to Nouméa on Air France/Aircalin must be flying a ghost flight. :lol:

Seriously, if you post such research, at least try to do the research correctly. There are no direct flights from Europe to Oceania. All flights require a stopover somewhere. If you include the destinations which require one stopover, then I don't know how many Oceanian destinations are served from London Heathrow, but there are certainly more than 2 served from Paris CDG.

There is of course Papeete and Nouméa, which are both served from Paris with one stopover each, but I'm quite sure you can also reach Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Auckland, and Honolulu from Paris with just one stopover.

FYI, flights from Paris to Nouméa make a stopover in either Tokyo Narita or Osaka Kansai Airport, and they take 23 hours and 30 minutes to reach Nouméa La Tontouta Airport from Paris CDG. You can even buy the ticket on the AF website, so just check it.


----------



## city_thing

arran21 said:


> No, no and no, is lying a mental illness of yours, Hong Kong IS NOT used as a stop over to Australia, do you understand, or shall I draw you a picture, people going from Britain to Australia go via Singapore, not Hong Kong, I repeat, as you ate obviously not very intelligent, Hong Kong is not used as a stop over to Australia or new Zealand, Singapore is. People traveling from London to Hong Kong are going to stay in Hong Kong, do you understand now, gong Kong is China, so mote brits go to chins than French, now what will you say, I have the airline routes infringe of me, and Hong Kong IS NOT used as a stop over to Australia, singapore is, so that false map you made to try and make France look more important, was just another of your pathetic lies resulting from your massive inferiority complex about Britain, you can't hard Britain just because they are more powerfull and important, get over it and grue up, everyone is sick of your nationalistic nonsense, except ky, your just mediocre, so leave it at that and stop trying to ruin every thread with your constant trolling, or I will report you


HK is the main stop over for people flying Virgin on the 'Roo Route...


----------



## fieldsofdreams

brisavoine said:


> So my friend who returns every year to his native New Caledonia by flying from Paris to Nouméa on Air France/Aircalin must be flying a ghost flight. :lol:
> 
> Seriously, if you post such research, at least try to do the research correctly. There are no direct flights from Europe to Oceania. All flights require a stopover somewhere. If you include the destinations which require one stopover, then I don't know how many Oceanian destinations are served from London Heathrow, but there are certainly more than 2 served from Paris CDG.
> 
> There is of course Papeete and Nouméa, which are both served from Paris with one stopover each, but I'm quite sure you can also reach Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Auckland, and Honolulu from Paris with just one stopover.
> 
> FYI, flights from Paris to Nouméa make a stopover in either Tokyo Narita or Osaka Kansai Airport, and they take 23 hours and 30 minutes to reach Nouméa La Tontouta Airport from Paris CDG. You can even buy the ticket on the AF website, so just check it.


Sure, that works. However, that'd mean you'll need to swap airlines and aircraft at either NRT or KIX to get to Noumea. Unless you tell me AirCalin codeshares with Air France, I still say that there is only one direct flight (as opposed to nonstop, which is a different story) serving between CDG and Oceania at the moment. And by the way, AirCalin operates A330s between New Caledonia and Japan, while AF operates either a B772, B77W, or A380 to Japan from Paris. 

However, it's true that one needs to layover somewhere to get to and from Oceania... DXB, DOH, and AUH are aggressively selling their airports as wonderful stopovers, and they use very modern aircraft to get between Europe and Australia. Besides, their airports are becoming much more modern and their airlines provide more flights than ever before.


----------



## fieldsofdreams

city_thing said:


> HK is the main stop over for people flying Virgin on the 'Roo Route...


That's true, while SIN remains the stopover for BA for its LHR-SYD service. It looks like DXB is becoming the mega-hub for Europe-Oceania (especially Australia) flights.


----------



## Kolony

@brisavoine, I don't think you understand what @fieldsofdreams is saying. He is saying that There is only one "Vol direct" from Paris to Papeete including a "Escale" in Los Angeles. To reach Australia or New Zealand, you will need to "Vols du commutation" in Dubai, Singapore or Hong Kong. "Compris?"


----------



## brisavoine

^^If you wanna fly from Paris to Papeete, you need to land in LA and change the plane there. If you wanna fly from Paris to Sydney, you need to land in either Shanghai, Hong Kong, Singapore, and change the plane there. It's exactly the same thing. In both cases you buy a single ticket from Paris, and the flights have the same number (an AF number, because it's a codeshare agreement). You're even given both boarding passes in Paris.

For example here this lady flew on Air France/Aircalin from Paris to Nouméa, with a stopover in Osaka Kansai, and she was given her two boarding passes at CDG Airport, with the Air France logo on both passes:


----------



## brisavoine

fieldsofdreams said:


> Unless you tell me AirCalin codeshares with Air France


It does.

And on routes to Australia, Air France codeshares with China Southern. Air France also codeshared with Qantas, but the codesharing agreement ended in April due to the alliance between Qantas and Emirates. Air France has signed a deal wih Etihad Airways and will now codeshare with Etihad Airways on routes to Australia.


----------



## brisavoine

On the Air France website I can book tickets between Paris and 12 destinations in Oceania:
- Nouméa
- Sydney
- Melbourne
- Brisbane
- Adelaide
- Cairns
- Darwin
- Auckland
- Port Moresby
- Papeete
- Honolulu
- Kahului

For example you can fly from Paris to Darwin with a codeshare agreement between AF and Jetstar, with one stopover in Singapore. You can fly from Paris to Port Moresby with a codeshare agreement between AF and Air Niugini (the national airline of Papua-New Guinea, which signed a codeshare agreement with Air France in 2011), with one stopover in Singapore. You can fly from Paris to Kahului with a codeshare agreement between AF and Delta, with one stopover in either LA or Minneapolis.

For other destinations in the Pacific, you'll have to buy another ticket from either Nouméa, Papeete, or Honolulu. For example if you wanna fly to Port Vila (Vanuatu) or Suva (Fiji), you'll have first to buy an AF/Aircalin ticket from Paris to Nouméa (with a stopover in either Narita, Kansai, or Seoul), and then buy a second ticket on Aircalin from Nouméa to Port Vila or Suva.

The only permanently inhabited French territory that is not directly reachable from Paris is Wallis and Futuna. You'll have to fly first to Nouméa, then buy a ticket on Aircalin from Nouméa to Wallis. The outer islands of French Polynesia are also not directly reachable from Paris, so if you wanna fly to, say, the Marquesas, you'll have to fly first to Papeete, then buy a ticket on Air Tahiti from Papeete to the Marquesas.


----------

