# So do you think the suburbs will die out soon?



## Taylorhoge (Feb 5, 2006)

I find in New York especially on Long Island the suburbs are eating away the island and its beauty.Houses are being built 100 miles away from New York and this is truley killing the land within the next few years theyre will not be a hamptons or potato farms LI is famous for it will all be strip malls,soccer moms are caffine and two car garages


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## Dallas star (Jul 6, 2006)

Nope they will just get bigger and bigger until the cities die out lol!!!!


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## SFPlanner (Feb 23, 2007)

No - -I don't think they'll die out - but I'll bet they change - -lots of people, including me, like cities and things that come with cities - - but lots of folks just can't afford living in a big metropolitan place so off they go to the surrounding lands - 

So, the changes that are happeing (in the US anyway) is that regions are at least begining to consider transit as a possible solution - - I know, I know, expensive and tough to get going, but people are trying - same with mixed use - townhomes etc over shops w/in walking dist of residents - - even nhood cafe's, bookstores, etc...

And a big change is in development density - - not city density, but more density - town homes, smaller lots etc and even 4/5 story podiums with apts or town homes - - again, compared to the City this seems barely noticable, but in suburban places, the changes are happening -

there is good and bad with density - some people are including many smaller nhood parks to make the places more livable and pretty nice - but others stick with clunky suburban stds - only a few big parks forced into what is essentially a big high density subdivision (housing more like public storage than nhoods), rather than a neighborhood with greens...


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## AndySocks (Dec 8, 2005)

Nope. As long as people are more willing to drop their 600 large on a big ugly house in the middle of relative nowhere instead of on a smaller but more tasteful house in the city then the suburbs will keep on growing.

When I see the McMansions going up in Culpepper County, Virginia, it makes me wonder how the original residents feel. If I were one of them, I'd probably be pissed. Big uglyass houses ruining the view, uppity suburban types either a) acting superior because they're from Fairfax or wherever, and thus more "cultured", despite the fact that NOW they LIVE in the same hick town as me or b) the joke of suburbanites suddenly sticking Conderate Flag stickers onto their brand new SUVs in a lame attempt to "blend in".

One way or the other, I guess, I'd probably resent them.


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

They're probably happy, because they could sell their houses/land for more money than they originally bought it for. Those newcomers always bring up the land value. And then they could move farther away.

I love urbanity and cities, but sometimes I just like thinking about the future (with my future wife ) living in a large house with a large yard with my kids, going to good suburban schools. Sounds better than living in a cramped townhouse for more money, with worse schools. But that's just me.

Sometimes, people like some breathing room.


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## Third of a kind (Jun 20, 2004)

prelude91 said:


> some parents want to raise their kids in a diverse environment. when i grew up in the suburbs of chicago, i didnt see my first "ethnic" person till i was like 12. kids who grow up in a city or urban environment are usually more well rounded and more aware of the different economic status' of different people (they realize that there are rich people and poor people). In the suburbs everyone is the same.


well I wouldn't neccesarily agree with that. I grew up for a good deal of my life in a suburb of ny, lived in a pretty urban and ethnic albeit poor neighborhood.

I'd just say suburbs are changing, although I think people will always have those cookie cutter type places. I think the whole "breathing room" thing depends on how much economic freedom you have. The thing I don't get is, i've seen people by houses far far far away from the city, like say 70 miles upstate or more..and yes they got good deals on these houses but the money they used going back to their jobs in the city didn't make any sense to me. I use to work with a woman who commuted from ONE of her jobs in dtwn brooklyn all the way up to poughkeepsie everyday, thats some shit right there. I'd never commit myself to that type of commute.


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## prelude91 (Oct 30, 2006)

kansas said:


> Lower class blacks/hispanics live in the guts of the cities. Whites educated minorities live out in the suburbs. Thats not changing in the next 5 generations at least.


i guess you have not noticed the revival of urban areas in cities such as Chicago, New York, LA, Miami, etc...

People are moving back to the city!



kansas said:


> Gas can go to $10 a gallon and middle/ upper middle class america will not integrate back into the cities with mess that is lower socio economic minorities..


If that is the scenerio in Kansas i feel bad for you. hno: 



kansas said:


> Most of the US cities the jobs are following the upper classes out into the suburbs.



Um...no they are not


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## plumbum (Mar 7, 2007)

I think the suburbs will change as energy prices increase and congestion becomes a big issue. Here in Toronto, the suburbs are becoming more and more urbanized. By this I mean, most of them are building downtowns and trying to increase transit usage. Mississauga, a suburb to the west of the city has a skyline and is increasingly building many high-rise condos and office buildings. The cost of congestion is catching up to all these suburban areas, and people are realising that living in a house in the middle of nowhere and driving several hours a day to get to work is a waste of time and money.

More people are moving to the cities, but the suburbs are also growing. In this respect I think Toronto is doing really well. We have one of the largest condominium market in North America, trailing only New York. 

People are realising that the good schools are not only in the suburbs, but the inner city has some great schools as well. Living in urban areas is a great place to raise a family. All amenities are nearby, and walking distance. It's healthy to raise kids in walkable communities than to train them to be shuffled around by their parents in cars everywhere. The generation growing up is realizing that owning a house in the suburbs is a dull and dreary existence. However, I do believe cities in the US are quite different than in Canada, as there isn't any racial segregation in Canadian cities and as such are a lot safer places to live than many US cities due to the generally low crime rates in Canada.

People are moving back to the cities. Come visit Toronto and you'll see all those condo cranes in the sky.


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## Sen (Nov 13, 2004)

aren't all the good private schools in the city?
Toronto's best schools are all in the city.


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## kansas (Jan 15, 2005)

prelude91 said:


> i guess you have not noticed the revival of urban areas in cities such as Chicago, New York, LA, Miami, etc...



The empheral city is 5-10% of the land area of the entire city if that. I went to school in Philly, which has an awesome downtown but its only 4 sq. miles of a city thats 135 sq. miles. Ditto Baltimore,Miami, Washington,Cleveland Detroit. NYC is an anomaly because of Manhattan. Chicago is definitely a notch above the other cities but if you think the vast majority of Chicago suburbanites are going to move back into the lesser socio economic areas you are in for a surprise. There may be a trickle of newcomers back to the city but the suburbs will never die at least not in the big cities east of the Mississippi. 



> People are moving back to the city!


Young hipsters/empty nesters are moving into very select areas of the big cities. Meanwhile the middle class continually gets pushed into suburbs by the spread of the lower class. Every city on the east loses middle class with each census period. What good is gaining 10,000 hipsters when you lose 100,000 middle class families who have to leave becasue the school districts are imploding.


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## Cristovão471 (May 9, 2006)

Suburbs are soo lame.


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## EtherealMist (Jul 26, 2005)

Sen said:


> aren't all the good private schools in the city?
> Toronto's best schools are all in the city.


Yes but the good _public_ schools are in the suburbs.



prelude91 said:


> i guess you have not noticed the revival of urban areas in cities such as Chicago, New York, LA, Miami, etc...
> 
> People are moving back to the city!
> 
> ...


There is a definitely a resurgance in our urban cores but I is it really the savior? Isnt it 90% young people, college kids, yuppies, people without families? I still feel that in the end the average person much rather raise a family in the suburbs than in a city and I cant really blame them for it.


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## Truepioneer (Feb 25, 2007)

Suburbia is very selfish considering it uses maximum space and resources without any consideration.


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## aussiescraperman (Apr 5, 2005)

suburbs rule :cheer:


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## liat91 (Apr 11, 2005)

Growth pie: 75% growth suburbs, 25% of growth cities.
I see the relationship between cities and suburbs as a very unstable pendulum. People just don't want to commute that far anymore. People want to have that dream house on an acre of land in an idyllic suburb/exurb. Whites chasing mayberry are finding that it is a futile attempt as the minorities follow them for the reasons of the (suburban american dream), which in turn is one of the reasons whites in particular are returning to the cities (choice neighborhoods only of course), since living in Suburbia (going to the mall in particular is where you will see that the suburbs are very diverse as well) isn't going to be white bubble they saw when they where children. (GASP) And then in turn the educated minorities who graduate college with educated whites with whom they associate with also find the excitement and opportunity of living in an urban environment. With this great upheavel we need lots of cheap labor, whom the traditional poor can't be relied upon because they aren't having tons of children like in the past. Bringing in all the illegals, who further convolute the whole situation, and are living in both city and suburbs. In a nutshell.....


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## kansas (Jan 15, 2005)

liat91 said:


> Whites chasing mayberry are finding that it is a futile attempt as the minorities follow them for the reasons of the (suburban american dream), which in turn is one of the reasons whites in particular are returning to the cities (choice neighborhoods only of course),


Cat and mouse game? I think you are overanalyzing things.

Whites and blacks of higher class will do whatever need be to distance themselves from the lower class(especially black lower class). If there is an approach of black lower class into a working class suburbs, the higher class(usually white) will move even further away 99% of the time. 

The select few empty-nesters or hipsters moving back into the glitzy downtowns are usually from well off white suburbs.They aren't being chased back into the cities , they are moving back to the cities by choice.

From my few years spent in the Philadelphia area its absolutely amazing and sad to see the segregation in that region. Center City 98% white, surrounding hoods 100% black, inner suburbs- older cities 75% black, outer suburbs 100% white.







> since living in Suburbia (going to the mall in particular is where you will see that the suburbs are very diverse as well) isn't going to be white bubble they saw when they where children.


You need to visit suburban Philadelphia.[/QUOTE]


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## prelude91 (Oct 30, 2006)

in chicago, neighborhoods outside the core of the city are still diverse, same with the inner suburbs. 

neighborhoods such as bridgeport, andersonville, rogerspark, ukranian village are very diverse. suburbs such as evanston, lincolnwood, skokie, oak park, oak lawn, evergreen park, etc... are all suburbs that border the city of chicago, and all are very diverse.


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## kansas (Jan 15, 2005)

Philadelphias inner ring suburbs like Upper Darby,Chester, Camden,Norristown are 99.9% black. 2-3 miles from those cities its 99.9% white.


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## liat91 (Apr 11, 2005)

kansas said:


> Cat and mouse game? I think you are overanalyzing things.
> 
> Whites and blacks of higher class will do whatever need be to distance themselves from the lower class(especially black lower class). If there is an approach of black lower class into a working class suburbs, the higher class(usually white) will move even further away 99% of the time.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Some points you pointed out are very accurate. I don't think it is necessarily a cat and mouse game. I meant that since many whites are seeing the suburbs become more diverse, then why they hell shouldn't they live in the city, you get diversity plus many conveniences. 

Also, Philadelphia and it's super white outer suburbs aren't the norm for America in general. For example, the newer cities such as Seattle has a CSA population which is 75% white, while Philadelphia's CSA population is 68% white. The thing is when you go into the suburbs of Seattle they seem very diverse, especially if you are comparing them to Philadelphia's suburbs. Seattle city however is considerably whiter than Philadelphia city.


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## liat91 (Apr 11, 2005)

kansas said:


> Cat and mouse game? I think you are overanalyzing things.
> 
> Whites and blacks of higher class will do whatever need be to distance themselves from the lower class(especially black lower class). If there is an approach of black lower class into a working class suburbs, the higher class(usually white) will move even further away 99% of the time.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Some points you pointed out are very accurate. I don't think it is necessarily a cat and mouse game. I meant that since many whites are seeing the suburbs become more diverse, then why they hell shouldn't they live in the city, you get diversity plus many conveniences. 

Also, Philadelphia and it's super white outer suburbs aren't the norm for America in general. For example, the newer cities such as Seattle has a CSA population which is 75% white, while Philadelphia's CSA population is 68% white. The thing is, when you go into the suburbs of Seattle they seem very diverse, especially if you are comparing them to Philadelphia's suburbs. Seattle city however is considerably whiter than Philadelphia city.


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## ramvid01 (May 31, 2005)

EtherealMist said:


> At least these homes are built pretty much right next to each other. The bad suburbs are the ones where each house is like 100 feet apart.


Yea the houses are pretty close and for the most part are pretty close to the road they are facing. I would suppose its not as urban as a downtown, but that really isn't that suburban (looks like parts of Queens).


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## prelude91 (Oct 30, 2006)

^^ 

not that suburban? whether or not the houses are close together or their proximity to the street, they are still suburban. most of these houses have three car garages and im sure there is no pedestrian traffic. 
i agree this "subdivision" isnt as bad as others ive seen, but no way would i say they are not suburban.


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## ShowMeKC (May 15, 2006)

The post-50s suburbs are going to die in this century, the only way it can be avoided is in single cities, and if those cities continue sprawling and continue building them. But luckily most of the trends today are against sprawl. Hopefully the current housing market slowdown will decrease sprawl even more. 
Also, hopefully cities will see that the future isn't in personal automobiles, but pedestrians and mass transit.

These neighborhoods that are monotonous with the same houses and big box retail, and auto-oriented designs will die out. However hopefully planners/architects will be smart enough to start redesigning these areas to make them more like their Pre-WWII suburban counterparts. Which were less auto-oriented and more walkable, dense and city/urban friendly.


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## dogbo (Jul 30, 2005)

Yeah…if there isn't any sign of mixed use within walking distance, it doesn't really matter how close the houses are IMO. It is suburbia at its not so finest! Everyone of life's conveniences and necessities are only a car ride away.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> Before anyone else starts player-hating on the suburbs, we have to determine what characteristics qualify something as being 'suburban' as opposed to 'urban'. The defintion can vary from region to region, and can be abstract or solid as necessary.



For me, it isn't a case of urban or suburban...or density at all. It's a case of lifestyle, which has a lot to do with details, and little to do with general demographics.



KGB


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## Sen (Nov 13, 2004)

KGB said:


> Me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


me 2

though i prefer having a swimming pools, some apartments have it, and it's way better than the "swimming pool" you have in your backyard.


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## prelude91 (Oct 30, 2006)

KGB said:


> For me, it isn't a case of urban or suburban...or density at all. It's a case of lifestyle, which has a lot to do with details, and little to do with general demographics.
> 
> 
> 
> KGB



all of these directly effect lifestyle


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> all of these directly effect lifestyle



No...these will be mostly indirect effects. Remember...I said DETAILS.

I can have a perfectly fantastic lifestyle experience in low density as I can in a high density setting...it all depends on many factors. Money could influence this a lot, but I'm not even taking that into consideration.....for the same money, I could enjoy living in a low density area...or find it pure hell....depends on the context.





KGB


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

Suburbs in the West are at least more dense than the ones around here.

If you look at a map of any large Northeast US metro, even the New York exurbs, you will see that the streets are horribly disjointed and hard to find. And there's the fact that homes are so far away from each other.


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

I just hope that when I graduate from college, I will move out the suburbs and into the cities.


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## CrazyAboutCities (Feb 14, 2007)

^^ You can do it!  I had that goal as you have and I achieved it by living in downtown Seattle area.


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## DarkLite (Dec 31, 2004)

*I do not think suburbs will just "die out". In the US, people with families have no incentive to stay in the cities. Besides, more space in the suburbs is better than cramped quarters for a family of 4. US isn't like Europe where people with no children constitute a large shar of the population, many American parents want the best for their children so they move them to areas with good schools. Another reason the burbs won't die is because having a nice, large house is a status symbol for many that shows they can attain an income that is greater than anyone would think. The suburban lifestyle is about conveniance too for many workers who do not want to battle traffic on their way to the home, so they have limited time to do things, where in large cities, is not possible for a limited timeframe (no Wal Mart, no quick gas stations, or easy parking, etc.)*


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## ShowMeKC (May 15, 2006)

I suppose you haven't read Jane Jacob's books have you? Might want to check them out. As well as check out various other things like anti-sprawl, smart growth, authentic urbanism, new urbanism, pedestrian/transit oriented development, etc... resources. Most of your statements have already been disproven joaquin.


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## Taylorhoge (Feb 5, 2006)

dogbo said:


> Yeah…if there isn't any sign of mixed use within walking distance, it doesn't really matter how close the houses are IMO. It is suburbia at its not so finest! Everyone of life's conveniences and necessities are only a car ride away.


 That so called Convenince will one day destroy our earth


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## dogbo (Jul 30, 2005)

Taylorhoge said:


> That so called Convenince will one day destroy our earth


That's a little dramatic for me. 

I say instead it helps lead to unhealthy and less fulfilling quality of life having to drive everywhere (both in lack of exercise and also time lost stuck in traffic/or just simply commuting).


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## jacobboyer (Jul 14, 2005)

Taylorhoge said:


> That so called Convenince will one day destroy our earth


 No nuclear weapons or spmething natural will desroy our earth not people in the burbs that drive suv's and have alittle bit of extra room. Not everyone gets high when they hear the word downtown like some people on here, deal with it.


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## ShowMeKC (May 15, 2006)

jacobboyer, it will eventually destroy earth if we continue in this fashion for hundreds of years. Sprawl has to be stopped eventually. We have more than just us humans to worry about.

Also, this is definitely worded wrong, suburbs aren't bad, but sprawl is the worst thing to happen to mankind ever in regards to planning/architecture. As well as in regards to our environment and cities. Sprawl has to be stopped, but suburbs just need to be redesigned and changed so they aren't automobile oriented, as well as other factors.


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## infernal (May 27, 2007)

In most asian and latin countries the suburbs are dieing out. But I still prefer the suburbs with peace and quiet.


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## Austraarabian (Jan 16, 2007)

Suburbs will grow even bigger and cities will begin to sprawl into the suburbs like in Sydney - we have suburban cities, like Parramatta and Chatswood. These two are probably growing just as fast as Sydney city. They are suburbs with a city. Its hard to explain. So I think suburbs will continue to grow at a faster rate than what we have ever seen.


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

Suburbs anywhere are just the continuation of the city, it's outskirts. As such, it cannot be though seperatly from the city itself, they are not seperate entities.

As such, 'suburbs' will never die out, any city will always have outskirts. However, suburbia as it exist today in it's different forms around the globe will surely evolve, like everything.


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