# Are this countries going to be considered developed in 2018?



## George W. Bush (Mar 18, 2005)

-Corey- said:


> Where would you prefer to live?


It depends whether I belong to the 10 or the 90 percent.


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## VECTROTALENZIS (Jul 10, 2010)

Look at Scandinavian countries, it's rich and quite equal. There is not much difference salary wise between a cleaner or teacher.


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

So whats the reward for being a teacher then? Years and money in preparation for the pleasure of teaching? Lets all be cleaners!

Cleaners should earn a salary that permits them to live but teachers should be better rewarded. The World needs good professionals teaching, and money is a good incentive to attract the best.


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## VECTROTALENZIS (Jul 10, 2010)

sebvill said:


> So whats the reward for being a teacher then? Years and money in preparation for the pleasure of teaching? Lets all be cleaners!
> 
> Cleaners should earn a salary that permits them to live but teachers should be better rewarded. The World needs good professionals teaching, and money is a good incentive to attract the best.


That's the problem in Sweden, nobody wants to become a teacher. I really mean nobody, those who become teachers nowadays are the leftovers who can't come into any other program. Teacher is one of the jobs with least reputation.


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## Yuri S Andrade (Sep 29, 2008)

sebvill said:


> So whats the reward for being a teacher then? Years and money in preparation for the pleasure of teaching? Lets all be cleaners!
> 
> Cleaners should earn a salary that permits them to live but teachers should be better rewarded. The World needs good professionals teaching, and money is a good incentive to attract the best.


Totally agree. Equality is not a good thing per se. At all. People are very different from each other, so why should they make the same ammount of money?


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## KeanoManu (Mar 1, 2012)

This is just big lies. Completely wrong. There IS a difference between the salary of high-income jobs and low-income jobs. The problem for Sweden is that teacher isn't really considered as a high income job. A teacher will still earn much more than a cleaner, but it's still not enough considering the amount of time and money it takes to educate yourself to a teacher.

A teacher will have enough money to buy a nice villa in the suburbs or a large apartment. A cleaner will only have enough money to buy/rent an apartment of smaller size. But he will at least have money for an apartment with all services and comforts that could be desired. A teacher will have enough money to travel once or twice a year. A cleaner may not be able to travel EVERY year, but he will have money for food, partying during the weekends and every day leisure and such things. He doesn't have to work two jobs and 80 hours a week to pay his bills. He can put in the same amount of hours as the teacher or those guys earning more than the double that he does. In other words: There are differences but both will have a pretty good life.

If you have an education or a skill that's rare or specific you will earn more than enough money even in the equal Scandinavian countries. The difference between unequal countries doesn't come in that end of the scale. The big difference is that a guy working at McDonald's, or that guy cleaning toilets at the public library, will earn enough to survive and still have some money left for leisure.

But I guess you guys prefer the cleaners to live in the favellas outside Rio de Janeiro with no running water or electricity...


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## Yuri S Andrade (Sep 29, 2008)

KeanoManu said:


> But I guess you guys prefer the cleaners to live in the favellas outside Rio de Janeiro with no running water or electricity...


2,143,672 out of 2,144,445 (99.96%) households in Rio de Janeiro have eletricity. 2,133,811 (99.50%) have running water. _(Census 2010)_

Oops...


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## KeanoManu (Mar 1, 2012)

Wow, I use one metaphor and that is everything you have an answer for. Good job.


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## Yuri S Andrade (Sep 29, 2008)

A bigoted metaphor, you mean.


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## Yuri S Andrade (Sep 29, 2008)

KeanoManu said:


> If you have an education or a skill that's rare or specific you will earn more than enough money even in the equal Scandinavian countries. The difference between unequal countries doesn't come in that end of the scale. The big difference is that a guy working at McDonald's, or that guy cleaning toilets at the public library, will earn enough to survive and still have some money left for leisure.


That's because you're wealthy. Nothing to do with equality. An unequal society can have all that, as long as it's rich enough.


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## KeanoManu (Mar 1, 2012)

Yuri S Andrade said:


> A bigoted metaphor, you mean.


Not really. That sentence was really unimportant to the general message. I don't understand why you had to focus on that small thing. But as you do. The part about no water or electricity don't matter. The important part of that unimportant sentence was the general living standard in the favellas. Do you think the living standard in those are good? Do you think the people there have a good economical situation?



Yuri S Andrade said:


> That's because you're wealthy. Nothing to do with equality. An unequal society can have all that, as long as it's rich enough.


Partly, yes. But the upper and middle class in many/most countries have a good quality of life. The upper and middle class in the Scandinavian countries do not have it worse than the upper or middle class in countries with large unequality. But the lower income classes has a much better standard of living than in most (all?) other countries. Something you said was a bad thing.


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## Yuri S Andrade (Sep 29, 2008)

KeanoManu said:


> Not really. That sentence was really unimportant to the general message. I don't understand why you had to focus on that small thing. But as you do. The part about no water or electricity don't matter. The important part of that unimportant sentence was the general living standard in the favellas. Do you think the living standard in those are good? Do you think the people there have a good economical situation?


No, the sentence was important and tells us a lot about your perceptions which matter for this discussion. You assumed the conditions in Rio de Janeiro's favelas were much much worse than actually is. Of course people there don't have a good economical situation, but that's beside the point. If Brazil had a GDP per capita comparable to the Swedish, they would certainly have much more economical confort.




KeanoManu said:


> Partly, yes. But the upper and middle class in many/most countries have a good quality of life. The upper and middle class in the Scandinavian countries do not have it worse than the upper or middle class in countries with large unequality. But the lower income classes has a much better standard of living than in most (all?) other countries. Something you said was a bad thing.


As I said: Scandinavian GDP per capita (Denmark/Sweden/Norway) is around US$ 70,000 now. I would be very surprised to learn poverty was a big deal there. Again, nothing to do with equality/inequality. It's only a matter of wealth.


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## KeanoManu (Mar 1, 2012)

Yuri S Andrade said:


> No, the sentence was important and tells us a lot about your perceptions which matter for this discussion. You assumed the conditions in Rio de Janeiro's favelas were much much worse than actually is. Of course people there don't have a good economical situation, but that's beside the point. If Brazil had a GDP per capita comparable to the Swedish, they would certainly have much more economical confort.


You still don't get the concept of metaphores. Just as you didn't get the concept of PPP.

But let's stop talk about a poor country like Brazil now. We have already established that they have nothing to do with a thread like this.




Yuri S Andrade said:


> As I said: Scandinavian GDP per capita (Denmark/Sweden/Norway) is around US$ 70,000 now. I would be very surprised to learn poverty was a big deal there. Again, nothing to do with equality/inequality. It's only a matter of wealth.


The wealth of a country is not the same a equality/unequality.
Your figures for Denmark and Sweden are very exaggerated though... But they shouldn't be discussed in this thread neither as they already are very developed.

Please get back on topic now.


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

sebvill said:


> So whats the reward for being a teacher then? Years and money in preparation for the pleasure of teaching? Lets all be cleaners!
> 
> Cleaners should earn a salary that permits them to live but teachers should be better rewarded. The World needs good professionals teaching, and money is a good incentive to attract the best.


Your logic is correct when there are less resources and you need to spend wisely in order to generate growth. But if the wages are good already, like I suspect it is in Sweden, then you don't need to discriminate between jobs in order to assign jobs different arbitrary valorisations. At that point it is more important to bring up to acceptable levels the living standards of the lowlier jobs. If the money are good, then the rewards for teachers will be centered around the sheer joy of educating and forming other people, perfecting yourself at it, having a good chance of upwards mobility inside the profession, etc. All of the teaching friends I have are into it _despite_ being aware from the start that money will be scarce (unfortunately they don't live in Sweden). For that matter it's the same with my friends who are doctors, too. If they were paid decent money they would be 100% happy, as they already love their jobs.


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## Yuri S Andrade (Sep 29, 2008)

KeanoManu said:


> But let's stop talk about a poor country like Brazil now. We have already established that they have nothing to do with a thread like this.


That's childish. 

In any case, by 2018, according to IMF estimates, Brazil will not be very far from developed countries like Portugal and Greece. Actually, the Centre-South Brazil (122 million people as 2012) will have a GDP per capita as high as the Portuguese.




KeanoManu said:


> The wealth of a country is not the same a equality/unequality.


Surely. And what set Scandinavia apart from the rest, it's not its "egalitarian nature", but how much wealthier than the rest it is.

You end poverty by getting rich, not by becoming egalitarian.




KeanoManu said:


> Your figures for Denmark and Sweden are very exaggerated though... But they shouldn't be discussed in this thread neither as they already are very developed.


I meant Scandinavian GDP, not Swedish or Danish individually.


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

Yuri S Andrade said:


> You end poverty by getting rich, not by becoming egalitarian.


I totally agree with this.

Equality in opportunities only. And for that you need to have an excellent public education system and good infraestructure. Things that can be done only by getting richer.


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## Alex Roney (Apr 22, 2007)

Skyprince said:


> Have to look at inequality too.
> 
> Just returned from Mexico and visited Turkey last year. Both have nearly similar PPP per capita. But Turkey's development seems distributed well across the whole country I hardly spot "wealthy" or "Lower middle income/poor" neighborhoods , even in rural cities in Eastern Turkey I visited deemed "backward" by many in Istanbul , while Mexico has quite visible gap between minority elite and majority (?) lower middle-income group.
> 
> ...


Did you go to the Kurdish areas? Istanbul isn't exactly representative of Turkey.


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## Alex Roney (Apr 22, 2007)

isakres said:


> Taking inequality into the equation must say even Chile drops a bit below Eastern Europe / the Baltic countries but given the relatively small Chilean population of ~16million, pulling those extremely poor Chileans must not be such a huge task to accomplish in the short term.
> 
> Inequality is a challenge in the Americas (including the USA), the southern countries of Africa and even in China and if we dont properly fight inequality, we will need higher GDP Per Capita to minimize poverty levels.


That's why to say that Chile is developed or about to be developed is a bit ridiculous. People are so caught up on GDP per capita as if that's a true parameter of development when they forget Chile has a high inequality even among Latin American countries.

Heck I'd argue for the bottom 50% of the population it's better to be Uruguayan than Chilean. I also think in terms of measuring povery it's far better to use the MPI than HDI with the former have far more variables


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## Alex Roney (Apr 22, 2007)

-Corey- said:


> You don't see slums in the US... Where would you prefer to live? In a country where the 10% make $500K annually and the rest $50k (and less than 10% making $20k)... Or in a country where 90% earn $10k while the rest earn $900k? I'm just making those figures up, but you get the idea... The US might not be that equal, but the US still is one of the richest countries on Earth.


The U.S blows if you're in the bottom 50%, at least compared to Europe. For those in the top 15-20% it's probably better than Europe with more opportunities to earn more. 

Some inequality is totally needed in order to incentivize people but the levels you see in the U.S and definitely Latin America is terrible. Not only does it not make economic sense but it creates so many social problems.


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## cercalisrael (May 18, 2013)

No way that Chile will be a developed country in 2018! Numbers show that Chile it's shown as a rich country, but it isn't. They don't have a signifcant and strengthened economy to assume a position of a developed country, also, they have to win a lot of barriers like poverty, financial instability and aggravating social problems to to be called a developed country.


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

Chile has a stronger economy than many countries already considered developed as lets say Greece or Portugal. They have high credit penetration, solid enterprises (Lan, Falabella, Ripley, Cencosud, etc.), large investments outside, low unemployment, low inflation, strong economic growth, etc. In 2012 Chile, with only 17m people recieved USD 30 billion in foreign investment while Brazil with 190m recieved USD 60 billion and China with 1,200 millions recieved USD 80 billion. Financial Inestability? Chile (as many other Latin American countries) are more financial stable than the whole of Europe. Social problems in Chile? Not worst than those in developed countries.



Alex Roney said:


> That's why to say that Chile is developed or about to be developed is a bit ridiculous. People are so caught up on GDP per capita as if that's a true parameter of development when they forget Chile has a high inequality even among Latin American countries.
> 
> Heck I'd argue for the bottom 50% of the population it's better to be Uruguayan than Chilean. I also think in terms of measuring povery it's far better to use the MPI than HDI with the former have far more variables


Actually even in the HDI adjusted by inequality Chile scores higher than Uruguay.

Inequality in Chile is high, but is not an actual problem as in poorer countries in our region like Brasil, Colombia or Peru. Gini Index is a tricky thing.


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## FNNG (Jul 25, 2011)

LillianHannan said:


> defintily these 3 countries would be ranking in developed nations in 2018


which 3 country?


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## Orionol (Feb 13, 2009)

FNNG said:


> which 3 country?


:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

Look at the first page.
Poland, Hungary & Chile.


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## alejandro.ags (May 21, 2012)

cercalisrael said:


> No way that Chile will be a developed country in 2018! Numbers show that Chile it's shown as a rich country, but it isn't. They don't have a signifcant *and strengthened economy* to assume a position of a developed country, also, they have to win a lot of barriers like poverty, *financial instability* and aggravating social problems to to be called a developed country.


where?


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## CarltonHill (Dec 11, 2011)

I could see Poland and Chile to be developed on 2018 then Hungary by 2020.

While Argentina and Malaysia will be developed on or before 2025...


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## ArchiMos (Jan 18, 2011)

World Bank Statistics: 


GDP per capita (current US dollars),


*COUNTRY:* 2000: ->	2011, GROUTH:

*USA:* 35.082 ->	48.112, 37%
*Germany:* 22.946 ->	44.021, 92%
*Spain:* 14.414 ->	31.985, 222%
*Greece:* 11.396 ->	25.630, 224%

*Czechia:* 5.725 ->	20.677, 361%

*Chile:* 5.145 ->	14.395, 280%
*Hungary:* 4.543 ->	14.043, 309%
*Poland:* 4.454 ->	13.352, 300%

*Russia:* 1.775 ->	12.995, 732%
*Brasil: * 3.696 ->	12.594, 341%

*Malasia:* 4.006 ->	9.977, 249%


So Czech republic will defenetly achieve the developed country status very soon, Poland, Chile and Hungary, not so soon, it´ll take them, mayby 8 - 10 years

Malasia - no way in near future.


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## right1 (Feb 8, 2013)

*GDP per Capita PPP in 2011 of OECD countries according to this organization*

South Korea: US$29.833
Israel: US$28.905
Greece: US$25.836
Portugal: US$25.362
Hungary: US$21.455
Poland: US$21.138
Chile: US$20.831

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_GDP_per_capita


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## right1 (Feb 8, 2013)

ArchiMos said:


> World Bank Statistics:
> 
> 
> GDP per capita (current US dollars),
> ...


That's nominal, depends to much on the exchange rate. You should look at the PPP per capita.


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## ArchiMos (Jan 18, 2011)

right1 said:


> *GDP per Capita PPP in 2011 of OECD countries according to this organization*
> 
> South Korea: US$29.833
> Israel: US$28.905
> ...


Excuse me but I took my statistics directly from the www.worldbank.org not from wiki

And even if you prefer GDP per capita PPP (but converted to int-l dollars), the numbers are like this for 2001, -> 2011:

*United States:* 36.460 -> 48.820
*Germany:* 26.410 -> 40.190
*Spain:* 22.220 -> 31.440
*Greece:* 19.900 -> 25.110

*Czechia:* 16.350 -> 24.490

*Russia:* 7.260 -> 21.210

*Hungary:* 12.720 -> 20.310
*Poland:* 10.930 -> 20.260

*Chile:* 9.820 -> 16.300
*Malasia:* 8.780 -> 15.650

*Brasil:* 6.920 -> 11.420


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## George W. Bush (Mar 18, 2005)

^^
Those numbers are total bullshit (or rather: they may even be correct, but do not serve the intended purpose).

It's helpful to learn the ABC of economic terms before playing number games based on crazy calculations.


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

^^ Most international organizations such as UN, World Bank, IMF, OECD, etc. use PPP figures to compare between countries. Although its not a perfect figure either, since its base is the nominal GDP per capita, from which it adjust prices but not exchange rates (over or undervalued currencies), its more precise.

However, if you want to go micro and compare the purchase power of families, its better to use the Income per capita adjusted by prices. Thats a figure little used but very revealing and more in touch of living standards than GDP.


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## Yuri S Andrade (Sep 29, 2008)

^^
PPP, besides being a fantasy, with no place in the real world, has another problem yet: who, when and how it's calculated? I mean, every street of São Paulo, for instance, could have its own PPP...

Anyway, it's completely, useless BS.


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

Is nominal adjust by prices. Its not that hard to understand Yuri.

GDP is production, its calculate on the sum of Prices*Quantities. If two countries A and B produce only one sock, but in B is expensier due to higher costs of production, the GDP of B will be larger than the one of A, althought they produce exactly the same.


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

Btw, for those who say Inequality is an impediment for development. The USA is more unequal than many Latinamerican countries, long known for being some of the countries with the highest inequality.

However the USA is incredibly rich, which allows them to be Top 5 in HDI. And Top 10 in HDI adjusted by inequality.

Uruguay is where theres less inequality and Honduras where theres most.



bolix23 said:


> *U.S. Income Inequality Worse Than Many Latin American Countries* Latin America has long been viewed as a region plagued by some of the worst wealth inequality in the world. But in recent years, those figures have turned around, while in the United States income inequality is on the rise. Adam Isacson, analyst for the Washington Office on Latin America, notes the change on his blog. According to recent figures on income published by the U.N. Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean, the U.S. income gap now exceeds that of several countries in the Americas. As Isacson writes:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/27/us-income-inequality-wors_n_2561123.html?utm_hp_ref=tw


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## ArchiMos (Jan 18, 2011)

George W. Bush said:


> ^^
> Those numbers are total bullshit (or rather: they may even be correct, but do not serve the intended purpose).
> 
> It's helpful to learn the ABC of economic terms before playing number games based on crazy calculations.


Well, dude, if YOU tells us it´s bullshit, then all that staistics of World bank economists shurely is not more than a bullshit


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## George W. Bush (Mar 18, 2005)

^^
Ok, then let me ask you: Do you know what these numbers mean? Did you even care to explain what you thought they should mean?

As an example: The German GDP per capita for sure did not expand by 50% in real terms in those 10 years. Average year on year growth was more or less 1%. This was the period of lowest growth in German history since 1945, even before the world financial crisis battered the German economy in 2009.


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## ArchiMos (Jan 18, 2011)

Let´s continue:

*Gross Domestic Product based on PPP per capita*, Current international dollar, *2011*:

(The International Monetary Fond statistics)


*United States*: 48.328
*Germany*: 38.077
*Spain*: 30.478

*Czechia*: 27.112
*Greece*: 25.510

*Poland*: 20.013
*Hungary*: 19.571

*Chile*: 17.310
*Russia*: 16.768
*Malasia*: 16.009

*Brasil*: 11.666

P.S. Well, George you win, it wasn´t very accurate of me to put this percent of grouth based on 2001 - 2011 figure comparison.


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## Raymondzhydra (Aug 25, 2008)

I thought Chile was already a rich country...I lived in Northern Europe (Holland and visited almost all countries in the neighborhood) and never saw a capital city as clean and well-organized as Santiago.


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

*Life Satisfaction – OECD Better Life Index*


```
1. Australia
2. Sweden
3. Canada
4. Norway
5. Switzerland
6. United States
7. Denmark
8. Netherlands
9. Iceland
10. UK
11. New Zealand
12. Finland
13. Austria
14. Luxembourg
15. Ireland
16. Belgium
17. Germany
18. France
19. Slovenia
20. Spain
21. Japan
22. Czech Republic
23. Italy
24. Israel
25. Poland
26. Slovak Republic
27. Korea
28. Portugal
29. Hungary
30. Greece
31. Estonia
32 Russia
33. Brazil
34. Chile
35. Mexico
36. Turkey
```
Link HERE


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## right1 (Feb 8, 2013)

A little update. According to a new methodology, the World Bank says that this were the GDP's per Capita of this countries in 2012.

Chile: US$22,363
Poland: US$22,162
Hungary: US$22,119

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

Yeahh last homophobic law showed how Russia respects human rights.

BTW, you've mentioned that Russian population is not rapidly declining, so you must have a real high birth rate since life expectancy is extremely low in Russia, even lower than in Bangladesh.


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## Juni (Feb 11, 2010)

high birth rate is stimulated by the goverment and the benefits. and a lot of migrants.


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## Nonoka (May 13, 2010)

object704 said:


> Don't believe your media, when it comes to Russia.


Funny you say that when Russia itself is one of the lowest ranked countries when it comes to press freedom 




object704 said:


> *People from a country of Gebbels* should understand this - especially when it comes to Russia.


Don't you think it's rather pathetic to come up with such phrases which don't apply since 80 years, multiple generations and dozens of crucial changes? hno: I see you guys over there are so knowledgeable and tolerant!


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## Iluminat (Jan 16, 2008)

Nonoka said:


> Funny you say that when Russia itself is one of the lowest ranked countries when it comes to press freedom


Don't believe your rankings either!


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## void0 (Oct 8, 2008)

markfos said:


> Yes but only around 600 km of such roads have motorway/expressway standard in Russia, other have u-turns, pedestrian and collision crossings.


Where from do you take your information?


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## lowenmeister (Oct 1, 2012)

Russia took mankind to space,their weapons are second only too the US in the tech department.Russia is a hightech nation in those regard. 
Russia has issues but they need to really mess up to not become atleast as "developed" as Poland or the Baltic countries are today. 
Russia is also the size of a continent and kind of underpopulated so even if natural resources are all they've got they should still become developed eventually. 
They should soon overtake Germany as Europes largest economy.
We Europeans still respect and fear Russia,even with a declining population it is still as much a Superpower as countries like India and Brazil.


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

markfos said:


> Yeahh last homophobic law showed how Russia respects human rights.


It showed how many brainwashed zombies and trolls are in the west.  This law doesn't change anything - no matter how much you troll about it.



> BTW, you've mentioned that Russian population is not rapidly declining, so you must have a real high birth rate since life expectancy is extremely low in Russia, even lower than in Bangladesh.


70 years is a lot better than record breaking 80 years, if population is much younger. 

Plus national projects aimed to boost birth rate.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=211076&page=598

In 2007 there were 500,000 more deaths than births. In 2013 - 1500 less.

A great demonstration how rapidly Russia changes, and that it can't be judged by some historical data.

Plus Russians moving home from abroad, plus immigrants.



Nonoka said:


> Funny you say that when Russia itself is one of the lowest ranked countries when it comes to press freedom


It is so low that we have tons of media, from tiny newspapers to national TV channels, that exist solely to trash the government. 

Some pushed people to support the last year's coup de tat (attempt to overthrow the government) - they haven't even been punished.



> Don't you think it's rather pathetic to come up with such phrases which don't apply since 80 years, multiple generations and dozens of crucial changes? hno: I see you guys over there are so knowledgeable and tolerant!


Sorry, I didn't mean to blame Germans for your country's past - only that you should be aware well enough, how politicians can make people believe just about anything. And lots of Nazi propaganda targeted Russia.



lowenmeister said:


> Russia has issues but they need to really mess up to not become atleast as "developed" as Poland or the Baltic countries are today.


If it becomes as developed as Baltic states, half of Russians will declare Russia dead. 

Pribaltica has extreme problems. They fool people by publishing GDP growth not adjusted for inflation. Westerners assume that inflation is low (it's EU, after all), but it is not - all growth is inflationary.

Plus a lot of people are forced to work abroad - that's totally 3rd world.

Same for Poland, but to a lesser degree.

Russia, on the other hand, is one of the world's largest employer of immigrant workers. They earn $2000-$2500 (PPP) per month on average, aftertax.

Please don't wish us to "catch up" with Pribaltica or Poland.


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

Life expectancy in Russia is one of the lowest in the world, 118th position and its only 63 years for males (sic!).
You mentioned sth about inflation, check data, Russia has higher inflation.
About immigration, Russians can't travel like Balts to western countries without permissions, if they had such an opportunity the exodus of Russians would be huge, that is one of the main reasons Russians need visas to EU. Yes, you have immigrants but they are mostly from poor ex-soviet states, you were after all one country, so they know language, often have families in Russia. Of course if the had a possibility they would rather work in much richer western Europe.
Almost anybody from Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia would emigrate to Russia since average salary is higher in those countries, and we can travel without passport to any western rich country and get a job there without any permissions.

And stop with this bs that avarege salary in Russia after taxes is $2500

This is reality: 

Avarege salary $

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_in_Europe_by_monthly_average_wage

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/05/09/russian-wages-vary-enormously-by-region/

And the latest article from Russian site, comparision between salaries in Russia and Poland.

http://kaliningrad.ru/news/item/298...otnyh-plat-v-polshe-i-kaliningradskoj-oblasti


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

markfos said:


> Life expectancy in Russia is one of the lowest in the world, 118th position and its only 63 years for males (sic!).


Sure, something like that, but with women the average is 70. 



> You mentioned sth about inflation, check data, Russia has higher inflation.


Nobody uses Russian nominal GDP growth. While Baltic states do this.



> About immigration, Russians can't travel like Balts to western countries without permissions, if they had such an opportunity the exodus of Russians would be huge


1. Russians can easily travel abroad - and many millions do every year.
2. Europe is full of immigrant workers from outside EU, so your argument is null.



> Yes, you have immigrants but they are mostly from poor ex-soviet states, you were after all one country, so they know language, often have families in Russia. Of course if the had a possibility they would rather work in much richer western Europe.


They have an opportunity and they work there.



> And stop with this bs that avarege salary in Russia after taxes is $2500
> 
> This is reality:


My official income is $0. I spend a few thousand $ a month. *That's* reality.

And please, don't quote BS that uses exchange rate for wages - PPP should be used, and it is totally different.

Here's a calculation of real median household incomes in Russia and US:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=105671914&postcount=4550

This is a third time I gave you this link. Continue trolling and I'll ignore you, reporting your every troll post.


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

I gave you an official data about salaries even from Russian site!!! Who is troll here?
Who would believe in such a bs that average salary after taxes is higher than in UK, Austria or Belgium, really you have some mental problems. You would have hordes of westerners applying for job in Russia.
And life expectancy for women is also extremely low and ranks you at 102th position in the world.
And no you can't travel free, or work in EU, you need visas and work permissions for job wich are very difficult to get.


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

markfos said:


> I gave you an official data about salaries even from Russian site!!! Who it troll here?


You, because you ignore what you don't like, and cherry pick everything bad.

How hard it is to comprehend this:

My official income is $0. I spend a few thousand $ a month. *That's* reality. 

I explained the informal sector already, provided its estimates, and gave (three freaking times!) meaningful income stats for Russia and US, to make comparison easy.



> And life expactancy for women is also extremely low and ranks you at 102th position in the world.


Life expectancy in Russia is about 70 years. That's what I've said, not that it is not low.



> And no you can't travel free, or work in EU, you need visas and work permissions for job wich are very difficult to get.


There are tons of immigrant workers from outside of EU. In 1990's there were quite a few Russians too. Not anymore. Cut your BS already.


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## ArchiMos (Jan 18, 2011)

object704 said:


> Here's a calculation of real median household incomes in Russia and US:
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=105671914&postcount=4550
> 
> This is a third time I gave you this link. Continue trolling and I'll ignore you, reporting your every troll post.


First of all this link is in russian, how do you think he can read it? Second this is your own comparisons of the incomes in the USA and Russia, totally inaccurate and with absolute lacking of sense of reality.

Personally I think, both of you are a bit insane hno:, one of you is proving how Russia is the greatest of all, another - how Russia is bad and miserable - both present a lot of pretentious headings and manipulating statistics.


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

ArchiMos said:


> First of all this link is in russian, how do you think he can read it?


Didn't you notice that he just gave a link to an article in Russian?  There's google translate, also.



> Second this is your own comparisons of the incomes in the USA and Russia, totally inaccurate and with absolute lacking of sense of reality.


Then go to that thread and provide some other data!


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## calaguyo (Nov 28, 2008)

wrong thread!


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## Treka (Jan 26, 2013)

object704 said:


> You, because you ignore what you don't like, and cherry pick everything bad.
> 
> How hard it is to comprehend this:
> 
> ...


You do know that informal sectors are much larger in DEVELOPING nations(Such as India and Russia) whereas in developed nations(United States,Japan,Czech Republic) most business is conducted formally right?

And as for life expectancy the Russian Federation is 118th.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
Thats all!


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

Treka said:


> You do know that informal sectors are much larger in DEVELOPING nations(Such as India and Russia) whereas in developed nations(United States,Japan,Czech Republic) most business is conducted formally right?


It doesn't mean that high informal sector = developing country. Actually, the list of informal sector by country suggests that it correlates with how much a police state the country is. 

USSR was a developed country, even if judged by official stats - and it had a huge informal sector.

Some republics were very 3rd world, but they were subsidized, so the average income for USSR was nice. The level of development was extreme - absolutely unmatched by most developed countries.

RF is USSR minus poor republics.

This study explains problems that informal economy creates:

http://www.internal-displacement.org/8025708F004CE90B/%28httpDocuments%29/82E00CC12B6D5F8EC1257944005CF017/$file/OECD+2011.pdf

They don't really apply to Russia - the state had almost a century to mitigate them, and it did. There are charts that show that the nature of Russian informality is very different from developing countries - it is even better (less complications) than in some EU countries.

I'm impressed that some people still have the nerve to argue. I can understand that numbers are hard for some to comprehend, but there are so many pictures...

The closest from SSC homepage non-capital thread:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=732972

Ordinary Ekaterinburg
































It's not just *some* of Russia - that *is* Russia. That's what people see around them. That's how "undeveloped" the country is. 

There are tons of other pics on SSC.


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

^^ Yeahh ugly looking commies are the prove of development, at least we renovated them here.


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

Russia success...

in 1997 oil price was 15 dollars in 2008 was 140 dollars, even now hovering about 104 dollars. So Russia saving money from export oil and gas and thats was all sound economic decision made by Russia.. 

Russia’s budget - "Oil and gas revenues provide for about 70% of the entire Russian export money" RT News link here

60 percent of Russian budget in 2012 according to Russian statistical office is made by oil and gas export money... some estimate that non-directly oil and gas money accounts for 80 percent of Russian budget.. 

let alone Putin last year said that Governement budget is made by at least 50 percent from oil and gas money..  - Russia is basically basic commodity export country... just as Nigeria, Irag, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia..


*Russia industry in the collapse stage - Industrial production in Russia per capita is 10 times less than in developed countries. Russia seriously do not invested in fixed assets in last twenty years - if this continues, then Russia will soon finds in the pre-industrial phase *Expert Ru - link - think do you even know any Russian brand? just Gasprom company exporting gas coming to mind...

ease of doing business in Russia vs developed countries *aka bank charge interest rate for investment* 

in developed countries by an average of 1.2%
in Russia - 8.25% - off course then industry of Russia is in collapse stage


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

BTW - USA multinationals are all over the world... what's Russian multinationals?

Soviets were sending people to space but for what price... majority of Soviet GDP was bound to army spending and as a result Soviets in late 90's collapsed ... Russia now its very capitalist country, dominated by oligarch and Putin, living from export of oil and gas to Eastern EU countries and Germany 

http://www.mapcrunch.com/ you can compare development here .. there are RANDOM pictures to choose from urban environment.. 

btw...PPP GDP is meaningless when Russia import all consumer goods -cars, electronics or when Germans, Japanesse assemble cars and electronics over there...how much cars, phones, tv, fridges can you buy for those PPP salaries.. no more than in USA, because products sold in USA or Russia shops have comparable prices BUT russian average wage is a fraction of USA average wage


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

*closest allies Belarus and Ukraine are turning away from Russia*

Belarus issues arrest warrant for Russian tycoon (with ties to Kremlin)

Belarus said yesterday it had formally accused the top shareholder in Russia's Uralkali of abuse of power on Monday, deepening a diplomatic and trade dispute between Belarus and Russia after the collapse of a potash sales alliance.

Russian CEO Jailed in Potash Dispute

Belarus wont be backmailed by Russia

Ukraine urges Russia to accept 'reality' on EU relations 
Speaking to press in Kiev on Wednesday, Azarov said: "After signing the association agreement with the EU, Ukraine will create a free trade zone with the EU - this has to be inevitably accepted as a reality."

He added: "The whole world is changing, the global system of economic relations. But to build a fence to protect yourself from changes using artificial barriers is simply pointless."

Earlier this month Russia imposed extra customs checks on Ukrainian imports for several days, causing a near standstill at the border.
Russian President Vladimir Putin also warned Ukraine that the Customs Union - a Russia-led trade bloc with Belarus and Kazakhstan - might take "protective measures" if Ukraine goes ahead with the EU move.


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

OECD official website - disposable incomes

OECD USA dataIn the United States, people earn 54 450 US dollars per year on average, much more than the OECD average of 34 466 USD and the highest rate across the OECD. Not everyone earns that amount however. Whereas the top 20% of the population earn 70 927 USD per year, the bottom 20% live on 24 080 USD per year.

RUSSIA OECD dataIn Russia, the average household net-adjusted disposable income is 15 286 USD a year, less than the OECD average of 23 047 USD a year. But there is a considerable gap between the richest and poorest – the top 20% of the population earn nine times as much as the bottom 20%.


basically after adjustment - PPP price, the Russian average disposable income is UNDER poverty rate of USA... and even Russian inequality is worse than in USA


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

markfos said:


> Yeahh ugly looking commies are the prove of development, at least we renovated them here.


Tastes are different. And yes, they are a proof of development. Much more so than American housing - almost all of which, including apartments, are timberframe, with almost no sound insulation. And they generally look like shit too. Much of EU is not picture perfect as well.



Name user 1 said:


> BTW - USA multinationals are all over the world... what's Russian multinationals?


Ever heard about WW2 and how US jumped to the opportunity, and about Cold War, when USSR was blockaded? You sure should have heard about World Trade Organization, to which the West refused to accept Russia, until it understood that labor here is very expensive, so there is not much risk in heavily industrialized Russia to flood their markets.



> Soviets were sending people to space but for what price... majority of Soviet GDP was bound to army spending and as a result Soviets in late 90's collapsed


SU had a diverse economy that provided people with all necessities and lots of luxuries. And it collapsed artificially by Gorbachev/Eltsin.



> Russia now its very capitalist country, dominated by oligarch and Putin, living from export of oil and gas to Eastern EU countries and Germany


Our rich own a pretty low amount of national wealth, unlike in US, where most people have negative net worth, and rich own a lion's share of everything.



> btw...PPP GDP is meaningless when Russia import all consumer goods


BS.



> how much cars, phones, tv, fridges can you buy for those PPP salaries.. no more than in USA, because products sold in USA or Russia shops have comparable prices BUT russian average wage is a fraction of USA average wage


$2000 - $1900 for basic things = $100 for electronics and the like.
$1000 - $800 = $200 to spare.



> 60 percent of Russian budget in 2012 according to Russian statistical office is made by oil and gas export money...


Government uses oil revenues to finance economic, social, and military development. Nothing bad about it.



> Russia industry in the collapse stage - Industrial production in Russia per capita is 10 times less than in developed countries. Russia seriously do not invested in fixed assets in last twenty years - if this continues, then Russia will soon finds in the pre-industrial phase


Great source. 

By industry:
Natural resources: $485 bln.
Energy and water: $222 bln.
Other: $1351 bln, including:

Food processing: $218 bln.
Oil processing: $277 bln.
Chemical: $104 bln.
Metalurgy: $219 bln.
Electronics: $79 bln.
Equipment: $71 bln.
Auto, avia, space transport: $149 bln.

Almost $15,000 per capita.

Investments in fixed assets (2011): $555 bln.

Source - Rosstat, www.gks.ru.

Doesn't include the informal sector, which accounts for 50% of GDP. Much of it is in services, but a lot in goods production and construction.

Official construction is $317 bln. Not included in the above figures.



> in Russia - 8.25% - off course then industry of Russia is in collapse stage


No logic.



> basically after adjustment - PPP price, the Russian average disposable income is UNDER poverty rate of USA...


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=106625639&postcount=119

Approx. real median household aftertax (including local) incomes per member:

US: $1600
Russia: $1300

Some US household expenses that are many times smaller in Russia: housing - $1000, health insurance - $100, pension - $200, transport - $400. $1700 per month.

Median Russian household has a lot more cash to spare.



> and even Russian inequality is worse than in USA


My official income is $0, which places me at the bottom. I spend a few thousand dollars a month - on par with those not far from the top. This is how Russia lives.

Why should I repeat same things every day? Read at least the latest posts in the thread, to avoid posting the same BS that was posted before - and just a day or two before.



> http://www.mapcrunch.com/ you can compare development here .. there are RANDOM pictures to choose from urban environment..


An expert on Russia, who doesn't know that Russian city borders include lots of undeveloped areas? 

In Vladivostok, for example, maybe only a quarter has some development, including not very pretty industries and warehouses - the rest are hills, forests, and lots of vacation homes, including thousands and thousands abandoned.

Good luck comparing populated areas.


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

btw... OECD disposable income of Russia is already transferred in power purchase pricing ... so your rant is BS 

and famous informal sector... how you actually measure it when is informal .. it just show that russian institution are unable to collect money and total anarchy of Russia


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

Name user 1 said:


> btw... OECD disposable income of Russia is already transferred in power purchase pricing ... so your rant is BS


I posted real median household incomes - this is what matters, not stats that you can't even comprehend. 



> and famous informal sector... how you actually measure it when is informal ..


It is estimated.



> it just show that russian institution are unable to collect money and total anarchy of Russia


Lets record this: there was total anarchy in USSR. :lol:


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

*anyway do you know that 1/3 of the WORLD death from heroin addictions occurs in Russia?- this country is in collapse*


Heroin addiction kills a third of global addicts of the Heroin in the World + The UN and local NGOs say there are probably closer to a million HIV-positive people in Russia, maybe even more.


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

object704 said:


> I posted real median household incomes - this is what matters, not stats that you can't even comprehend.


off course median household incomes in Russia will be lower than you claim because according to OECD inequality in Russia higher than in USA... simple logic


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

btw those median household incomes in Russia and USA you calculated by yourself? 

perhaps some official websites instead of your bollocks will help ...because I cannot comprehend why you added INFORMAL economy into Russian median household income...

Informal economy is basically measurement of corruption in a country and ability of country government to deal with theft...

by cheating by businessmens and oligarchs they actually don't contributing toward health care, pension care, public expenses in towns, public transport... but average Russian must contribute ... and you even think is a good ;-)


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

object704 said:


> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=106625639
> 
> For Russia add the informal sector - 50%. For US add 8% informal and substruct 15% GDP imputations.
> 
> ...


how on earth you added to Russia 50% of informal economy to Real median household after tax income per member?

so basically if oligarch cheat and don't pay tax and as a result informal economy is higher -as you claim close to 50% of Russia economy then it will somehow improve Russian median household income? :lol:

as far as I know tax avoidance of rich in Russia it will improve western bank assets or London prices of mansons... where Russian oligarch transfer all stolen money


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

here is the proof of famous Russia informal economy - Russia’s 20 Biggest Billionaires Keep Riches From Putin

“Offshores are the main tool for Russian businessmen to protect their assets from state authorities, rivals and all kinds of raiders,”


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## KeanoManu (Mar 1, 2012)

The fact that there even is a noticeable informal sector is a telling sign that the country is nowhere near being developed.


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

Name user 1 said:


> anyway do you know that 1/3 of the WORLD death from heroin addictions occurs in Russia?- this country is in collapse


US has decided to wage an opium war against Russia. Heroine comes from Afganistan - no wonder the bulk of it goes to Russia.

But if you think that drug addicts dying, rather than commiting crimes, will kill Russia - you are out of your mind. 

Anyway, your obsession about the death of Russia is definitely ill.



> off course median household incomes in Russia will be lower than you claim because according to OECD inequality in Russia higher than in USA... simple logic


Repeat for the 3rd time: My official income is $0, which places me at the bottom. I spend a few thousand dollars a month - on par with those not far from the top. This is how Russia lives.

Also, the poorest people are rural - almost all of them produce food for personal consumption that is not included in official stats, and even in informal - because they are not avoiding taxes, they don't have to pay them.

Estimates are $300-$600 bln. Lets be conservative - $300 bln divided among 30 mln people = $10,000 per capita. In addition to their incomes - a big chunk of which is informal.

Russia has serious inequality, but it doesn't come even close to US. Especially, if you measure it some meaningful way, not the one US government wants you to use.

The difference between average and median incomes is about 30% - just like in good old Soviet days.



> by cheating by businessmens and oligarchs they actually don't contributing toward health care, pension care, public expenses in towns, public transport... but average Russian must contribute ... and you even think is a good ;-)


Russian economy is very different from western - don't try to compare apples with oranges. Anyway, we are talking about incomes.

Informal incomes go to ordinary people, not oligarchs.



> btw those median household incomes in Russia and USA you calculated by yourself?


Russian data from Rosstat, American from the links in this post:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=105671914&postcount=4550



> because I cannot comprehend why you added INFORMAL economy into Russian median household income...


Because that's the most correct way to take account of it. Know a better way - share it. But you don't even understand what we are talking about...



> Informal economy is basically measurement of corruption in a country and ability of country government to deal with theft...


You insist that in USSR the government was powerless?  And it has nothing to do with corruption, absolutely.



> here is the proof of famous Russia informal economy - Russia’s 20 Biggest Billionaires Keep Riches From Putin
> 
> “Offshores are the main tool for Russian businessmen to protect their assets from state authorities, rivals and all kinds of raiders,”


This is formal economy - down to every single cent.

And oligarchs moving their capital offshore to avoid taxes, not government prosecution.

You are making a fool of yourself, to the very least.


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

KeanoManu said:


> The fact that there even is a noticeable informal sector is a telling sign that the country is nowhere near being developed.


Care to share a proof of this statement? 

Also, you sure Italy is not a developed country?


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

Russia will never become developed as long as it's run by mafia and oligarchs. Corruption is everywhere, it does destroy this country, spreading like cancer.


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

markfos said:


> Russia will never become developed as long as it's run by mafia and oligarchs.


Fine, USA is not a developed country. 



> Corruption is everywhere, it does destroy this country, spreading like cancer.


Corruption = bribing an official to get a profit that you wouldn't get otherwise.

I've got the money - please tell me whom I can bribe for profit? :lol:


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

object704 said:


> Also, the poorest people are rural - almost all of them produce food for personal consumption that is not included in official stats, and even in informal - because they are not avoiding taxes, they don't have to pay them.
> 
> Estimates are $300-$600 bln. Lets be conservative - $300 bln divided among 30 mln people = $10,000 per capita. In addition to their incomes - a big chunk of which is informal.


producing for itself its not an informal economy...  all over the world people grow foodstuff for themselves... you don't pay tax from that anyway


- you telling me that producing and not selling potatoes, apples on average earns you by your conservative estimates in Russia - $300 bln divided among 30 mln people = $10,000 per capita.  

those few bags of grown potatoes, apples, tomatoes which average Russian take care after coming home from work I can buy in mall for 200 euros


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

object704 said:


> Fine, USA is not a developed country.
> 
> 
> Corruption = bribing an official to get a profit that you wouldn't get otherwise.
> ...


You've just proved that Russia is like Banana Republic, you have money but your income is officially $0. Perhaps this is the reason you have such an extremely low life expectancy (118th place) because country is so corrupted and ppl don't pay taxes so there is not enough money for medical healthcare.


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

Name user 1 said:


> producing for itself its not an informal economy...  all over the world people grow foodstuff for themselves... you don't pay tax from that anyway


No need to repeat my words that this is not an informal sector. 

The extent of this is a lot higher than in other developed countries.



> what does numbers means got them from your head or you want to tell me that producing and not selling potatoes, apples on average earns you by your conservative estimates in Russia - $300 bln divided among 30 mln people = $10,000 per capita.


This for example:

http://www.profile.ru/items_21104

Half of all Russian farming production. That means 100% of official. There are other opinions and estimates.

Food has a financial value - no need to count kilograms. 



> for few bags of potatoes, apples, tomatoes which you can buy in shops for 200 euros to eat for whole year but I presume In Russia its otherwise wll in short good fairytale


Average Russian household spends about $1500 a month on food, if memory serves me right. Rural households are much bigger (and rural folks are fat, despite walking much more  ). But food there is not necessarily cheaper - it is very common for rural stores to sell imported food (nobody grows everything they need), while local goes to cities, where people are willing to pay the premium price.



> so according to you in Ethiopia and Somalia poor farmers because they do produce for themselves are actually rich ..


If they produce for $1000 a year then they earn $1000 more than official stats show. I wouldn't call them rich.


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## Spavo (Sep 21, 2008)

object704 said:


> Care to share a proof of this statement?
> 
> Also, you sure Italy is not a developed country?


Object, by your messages I understood that I should emigrate to Russia as soon as possible and get a high paid job as I would be one of the few persons willing to work. I just hope that Saha Belov doesn't kill me if I try to make a big company 


Anyway, there is a huge error in your calculations and as an economist i must point it out. The estimated 50% informal sector is INCLUDED in the official GDP datas. this means that you don't have to add it to it to get the real income, but just that you have to sottract this 50% from the GDP to calculate the formal economy (that which pays taxes and contributes to the state budget.)

It is the same for Italy, someday Berlusconi told that adding the informal sector to italian GDP would make it bigger than that of the UK. He made your same error, you are justified as just a forum member but for a prime minister that was a really huge mistake. review your calculations and go on. I will no more interfere.


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

object704 said:


> Average Russian household spends about $1500 a month on food, .


Average Russian salary is around $800 so how is it possible that average russian according to you spends $1500 only for food. Even rich Germans, Brits or French ppl don't spend so much.
If avarage salaries in Russia are so extremely high as you claim why ppl from western countries don't emigrate there?


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

markfos said:


> You've just proved that Russia is like Banana Republic, you have money but your income is officially $0.


The term means a lack of diversification. 



> Perhaps this is the reason you have such an extremely low life expectancy (118th place) because country is so corrupted and ppl don't pay taxes so there is not enough money for medical healthcare.


There are billions and billions and billions of corporate taxes, plus oil - they finance healthcare and lots of other goodies.

The federal budget has an extreme proficit - which is spent on so called national projects (family subsidies to boost birth rates; school, health, farm, military reforms; development of huge Eastern Siberia and the Far East; and some others - that's trillions $ of budget money (+ many more trillions of private). Money is something Russia has.


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

I can also write that average salary in Poland is 2500 $ after taxes but its not official. I gave you link to Russian site which clearly shows that average salary is about 25% higher in Poland than in Russia is, so why would we believe in your 2500$ after taxes but not in official Russian data?


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## Rascar (Mar 13, 2012)

> The estimated 50% informal sector is INCLUDED in the official GDP datas. this means that you don't have to add it to it to get the real income, but just that you have to sottract this 50% from the GDP to calculate the formal economy (that which pays taxes and contributes to the state budget.)


Interesting, I never knew this. Is this the same for all countries GDP figures that appear in the media? It must be hard in some cases to make the calculation with largely agrarian economies.


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

Spavo said:


> Object, by your messages I understood that I should emigrate to Russia as soon as possible and get a high paid job as I would be one of the few persons willing to work.


It doesn't work this way.  Sure, you can earn some nice money, but to get a really high paying job you'll have to compete with those, who don't mind working. 



> The estimated 50% informal sector is INCLUDED in the official GDP datas.


It's not and can't *possibly* be - GDP is a very exact measure (insane imputations aside - Russia is not USA to falsify its data, though somebody from the government has proposed this recently). You are not a macroeconomist, I guess. 



markfos said:


> Average Russian salary is around $800 so how is it possible that average russian according to you spends $1500 only for food. Even rich Germans, Brits or French ppl don't spend so much.
> If avarage salaries in Russia are so extremely high as you claim why ppl from western countries don't emigrate there?


1. Not all households have one earner.
2. Salary is only a part of income.
3. The average salary exceeds $2000 (PPP, of course). Average household income is about $5000.



> Even rich Germans, Brits or French ppl don't spend so much.


Did I ever say that food (and drinks) is cheap in Russia?  For example, the cheapest meat is US, Brazilian, Australian, and EU (I've seen Danish mostly).



> If avarage salaries in Russia are so extremely high as you claim why ppl from western countries don't emigrate there?


Russia is not an immigrant country.  It also has an image of not being European. Japan has nice incomes too...

Though, this didn't stop 45,000 people from non-CIS countries (migration inside USSR is a different matter) to immigrate to Russia in 2011 - a 100% increase over 2010.

http://www.gks.ru/free_doc/new_site/population/demo/migr2.xls

Mostly from poor countries, but Germany is among the top. 187 from Poland. 

And more importantly - only 14,000 people emigrated to non-CIS countries (81 to Poland  ). In 1999 - 89,000. And it's waaaay easier to emigrate today - home prices alone have changed by about 10 times, and almost all Russians own homes.



> I can also write that average salary in Poland is 2500 $ after taxes but its not official.


It doesn't make any sense not to include informal incomes. It is simply laughable, because then I'm totally dead. 

Same for Poland - but do this yourself, if you are interested. You fare much better, relative to the richest countries, than your stats show.


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## Magistraler (Aug 12, 2011)

object704 said:


> I
> 
> 1. Not all households have one earner.
> 2. Salary is only a part of income.


Good points.


object704 said:


> 3. The average salary exceeds $2000 (PPP, of course). Average household income is about $5000.


some data to back this claim up?


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

object704 said:


> Same for Poland - but do this yourself, if you are interested. You fare much better, relative to the richest countries, than your stats show.


it's not the same, cheating on taxes is a very serious crime in Poland, you can go for many years to the prison, we have many institutions to fight with corruption and they work efficiently,corruption is relatively low and so is grey sphere.


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## object704 (Jan 3, 2013)

Rascar said:


> Interesting, I never knew this. Is this the same for all countries GDP figures that appear in the media?


Informal sector is not included in the GDP.

I know of only one country with fake GDP - USA, that includes imputations, estimated at about 15% of GDP (though Obama has increased them). There may be more, but I don't know.

For Baltic states, that are being touted as great examples of neoliberal policies success, GDP growth, that's being often quoted, is not adjusted for inflation - which equals their "rapid growth".

The rule of thumb is to pay no attention to GDP, unless you know what you are really looking at. Anyway, since the boom of a financial sector (virtual economy) it is rather meaningless.



> It must be hard in some cases to make the calculation with largely agrarian economies.


Yes, if there are lots of small farmers, who don't specialize (eating only corn or only tomatoes is no fun). But it won't help poor countries much - productivity of their small farmers is awful.

Food prices also matter. In Russia ipod = a ton or two of potatoes - that's nothing, only 200-400 m2 (1800-3600 sq feet), not many man hours at all. So here it matters significantly - at least for the sake of inequality measure.


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## Galro (Aug 9, 2010)

KeanoManu said:


> The fact that there even is a noticeable informal sector is a telling sign that the country is nowhere near being developed.


Depends on what you count as noticeable I guess, but even here in Nordics the informal sector is estimated to take up slightly less than 20% of the economy.

Source: https://docs.google.com/viewer?doce...58349_20101014160704/Rendered/PDF/WPS5356.pdf

(Admittedly 5 years old numbers but I don't think much have changed since then. At least not here.)


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Sorry, but this thread is a train wreck. :lock:


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