# Turkey, Europe's China?



## messiah (Sep 11, 2002)

*!!! I'll add only constructions... !!!*


I saw the media writing about Turkey as europe's China many times and finally I realized that this is not exaggerated. I just compare Turkey of 2006 to Turkey of 2000 and I realize we are well on the way to the top.
In 2000 we couldn't even dream about projects which get realized now and all that happened in 5 years!




*Just some statistics of the last years...*


















































*and then there are transport projects such as....*

_Turksih highspeed train newtork: All lines will be completed at the end of 2008 (in expection of the Izmir line which will take more time)_







































_Turkey already bought 10 sets of spanish made HS-train ( 250 km/h max. speed) They will be used between Ankara-Eskisehir which will be opened in October 2006._










_The production of korean-turkish made highspeed trains will start in 2007.The factory is under construction right now(located in Eskisehir, near Ankara)
Max. speed 350 km/h. They will be used on every line and they will be produced also for foreign markets!_ (I guess spanish CAFs are just provisional.)
































*In the last 3 years 6000 km of highway has been built!The number will increase to 15.000 km.Still much construction!*























*All major airports has been replaced/ are being replaced by new ones.*

Ankara Esenboga Airport:






















Izmir Adnan Menderes Airport:




















Opening of Terminal 2 in Antalya (total cap 22 million)































Dalaman Airport:











































_Sabiha Gökcen Airport:_





















*then there such urban transportation project...*

Istanbul Marmaray: A 80 km long metro construction crossing the bosphorus under the water.Deepest tube ever!













































































Izmir is adding 80 km of new metro line to its system too






































Ankara is expanding its network by 61 km
























































Bursa is expanding too.






































_Adana:_































Kayseri is building a LRT system:











































they will use the same vehicles as i Athens:














*Then we've got private investors such as...*

Dubai towers:










Diamond of Istanbul:










Mecidiyeköy:










Maslak Rezidans:









*Europe's biggest aquarium:*















































Ankara's new fair: 4 new skyscrapers, a new football stadium and many modern lowrises.










They showed these "forum" project at German Vox some days ago and said that they can't build such projects in Germany because of the weather  Pitty 

CMD Turkmall is going to build 7 open air malls in Turkey and ze germans are so fascinated about these projects! :cheers: Kampfy!

*Ankara:*











*Izmir:*



















The gulf bridge has been approved too! 3,2 km long! World's longest suspension bridge!









and there are MANY more that I can't post! It would take me days to post them here!!!


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## comrade7 (Nov 9, 2005)

Impressive. Especially this 6000 km of highways in only 3 years. Who built them - state or private invenstors? Are they all 'true' highways i.e. at least 2x2 lanes with highway junctions? How achieving such tempo was possible? Are they toll-free?


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## www.sercan.de (Aug 10, 2003)

messiah would know it better
you pay for a highway in Turkey


and this is the 2*2 new road project








^^^
this one is in Siirt
http://www.properties-in-europe.com/images/Turkey.gif
no 67

and this is Highway
*Tarsus-Adana-GaziAntep Motorway/Highway - SOUTH-EASTERN TURKEY*























































http://www.properties-in-europe.com/images/Turkey.gif
no 59-62


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## grachtengordeldier (Mar 7, 2006)

Beautiful and impressive. 
If you see all these things together looks a bit magalomane now and then.


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## messiah (Sep 11, 2002)

comrade7 said:


> Impressive. Especially this 6000 km of highways in only 3 years. Who built them - state or private invenstors? Are they all 'true' highways i.e. at least 2x2 lanes with highway junctions? How achieving such tempo was possible? Are they toll-free?


There are tow types of roads. Once the motorways which have 2x3 lanes and they *are not toll free*.The speed limit is* 130 km/h* on motowways



















and once the express ways which are 2x2 and toll free.The speed limit is 110 km/h on express ways. We call them "duble yol" double lane roads in Turkey.













some current express way construction:


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## *UofT* (Jul 25, 2004)

Turkey also has the human capital growing, They will add another 25million Turks to their population by the year 2050. Turkey will have close to 100 million people by then and if current trends continue its economy does have the potential to be on par with Spain's in a couple of decades.

Canada export web site (a gov of Canada site), is encouraging Canadians to Invest in Turkey. Turkey apparently at the moment being offers the highest return in all of europe per invested dollar.


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Hmm last time I checked it was located in Asia....


Nice pics and renderings btw!


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## *UofT* (Jul 25, 2004)

Mr_Denmark said:


> Hmm last time I checked it was located in Asia....
> 
> 
> Nice pics and renderings btw!



The Canadian Government views them as European on their Canexport site


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## Aquinas (Mar 19, 2006)

Mr_Denmark said:


> Hmm last time I checked it was located in Asia....
> 
> 
> Nice pics and renderings btw!


Both. 5% Europe, 95% Asia. According to CeBit's naming convention it is in Eurasia, which is pretty much correct.

Also, I doubt that the high growth rate in the population will continue. Unfortunately much of that growth right now is due to the uneducated rural population relying on their children as their retirement plans, so the more they make the better. 

As the agricultural sector in Turkey will shrink (which is pretty much inevitable) and education becomes more widespread, that mindset will slowly fade as well. More people will change to the services and production sectors, resulting in smaller families, so if a "typical" rural family right now includes 4 or 5 people in it's nucleus, that number will drop to 3 at most.

I would say that Turkey will count 90 million people at most in 2050.


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## messiah (Sep 11, 2002)

Don't you think Mr Denmark knows that 5% of Turkey is on the european continent! His aim was something different  It's something cool to cross the continents everyday  europe-asia asia-europe hehe!


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## System_Halted (Aug 14, 2004)

*TAV Takes 'Finance Oscar' for “Best Airport Infrastructure in Europe”*

The Turkish airport operating and management consortium, Tepe-Akfen (TAV), won an EMEA award, known as the “Finance Oscar” presented to the most successful finance projects.

The company was presented the award for *“Best Airport Infrastructure in Europe”* for its *Ankara Esenboga Airport* project.

Giving TAV the title becoming the first Turkish company to be awarded for the most successful finance project in Project International published by EuroMoney business magazine.

(Ref: Zaman Online)

New Ankara International airport will be completed and start functioning this year.


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## Tubeman (Sep 12, 2002)

Why is this in Citytalk?

I'd normally lock it, but its a good thread


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

:drool:


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## Bikkel (Jun 8, 2005)

Aye, Tubey good decision. But I'd say NO!!

China is Asia's Turkey!! I live in a city with a large Turkish community, seat of the Bank of Turkey and with all my experience, and now as a sometime consumer of Made in China produce, I can only say I much favour Turkey. Many brand name cars, TVs etc are manufactured in Turkey, and last longer than the Chinese imports. Remigration of former workforce from Germany must be particularly important for Turkey. Turkey's main cities are rather modern. The level of freedom in Istanbul is unmatched in China, perhaps the entire of Asia. Some of the worst wines I've tasted were from Turkey though.


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## sk (Dec 6, 2005)

turkey is a big country with lots of human resources, all these projects are something that turkey needs and should have had years ago.
progress and development should be first priority for turkey.
i hope we will see many more nice projects and i hope that the goverment of my country will take an example from turkey and start developing cyprus too.(political issues have nothing to do with development and progress and being an example for others)


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## LEAFS FANATIC (Dec 13, 2004)

Let me add something that explains why Turkey is not Europe's China:

*'Turkey, a Weak Link in Emerging Economies' 
By Cihan News Agency 
Published: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 
zaman.com*


The Globalist - an online magazine on global economics and politics - has warned that Turkey is the weak link in the emerging market chain across the globe.

An article titled,"Watch out for Turkey," written by economic strategist Joseph Quinlan claims that Turkey could face unexpected difficulties in 2006 which could rattles the emerging markets. 

Quinlan listed the *widening current account deficit, the high unemployment rate, the overvaluation of the Turkish liras, and the informal economy* as the main pitfalls of the Turkish economy. 

Turkey has staged an impressive economic recovery over the past four years, cutting inflation figures to eight percent from 60 percent and reducing interest rates to 13 percent from 45 percent. 


Source: http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20060321&hn=31155

And anyway, why would Turkey want to be like China? What are they envious of? China's excellent human rights record? China's excellent treatment of the environment? China's rural areas which make up over 85% of the nation and in which people live in 3rd world conditions? 

Beats me!


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## messiah (Sep 11, 2002)

> turkey is a big country with lots of human resources, all these projects are something that turkey needs and should have had years ago.



read the posts of Greek members and compra them to other forumer's posts and you will smell something like hmm envy mabye? I mean Greece EU member since moer then 20 years, why don't you own these things then?


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## messiah (Sep 11, 2002)

Leafs: Economist's forecats was -4.5% growth for Turkey. How did the reality look like? 9.9%!! :cheers:


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## LEAFS FANATIC (Dec 13, 2004)

messiah said:


> Leafs: Economist's forecats was -4.5% growth for Turkey. How did the reality look like? 9.9%!! :cheers:



That is great news.

All I am saying is that China should not be the model you want to compare to. They are too corrupt.

Also, I don't think you read the rest of sk's post. He wasn't being negative or envious against Turkey. Read his message again and you will see.


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## Lombak (Sep 29, 2004)

Messiah,you forgot to mention that we also have a major "Bottling" Industry for intrested parties.


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## Aquinas (Mar 19, 2006)

LEAFS FANATIC said:


> That is great news.
> 
> All I am saying is that China should not be the model you want to compare to. They are too corrupt.
> 
> Also, I don't think you read the rest of sk's post. He wasn't being negative or envious against Turkey. Read his message again and you will see.


I think you should not read too much into analogies.

When saying "Turkey is Europe's China" and then posting info about the economic and infrastructural growth, the person is obviously trying to compare both countries in those areas, not anything else.


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## wigo (Jan 23, 2006)

LEAFS FANATIC said:


> And anyway, why would Turkey want to be like China? What are they envious of? China's excellent human rights record? China's excellent treatment of the environment? China's rural areas which make up over 85% of the nation and in which people live in 3rd world conditions?
> 
> Beats me!


I don't encourage anyone to be like China. But since you throw in political issue here. Let me ask you, do you have a true understanding of human rights? Is it just to make some experts happy, or first to lift people out of poverty? I suggest before you bastard comment on China's human rights, ask any ordinary Chinese people in this regard. We may not be happy with everything our goverment does, but we can understand the underline reasons.

True me, we know that "human right experts" are nothing but hypocritical idiots.


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## LEAFS FANATIC (Dec 13, 2004)

Lombak said:


> Messiah,you forgot to mention that we also have a major "Bottling" Industry for intrested parties.



That was funny and clever!

I know exactly what you are reffering to. :cheers:


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## cyberjaya (Mar 21, 2006)

wigo said:


> I don't encourage anyone to be like China. But since you throw in political issue here. Let me ask you, do you have true understanding of human right? Is it just to make some experts happy, or first to lift people out of poverty? I suggest before you bastard comment on China's human right, ask any Chinese people in this regard. We may not be happy with everything our goverment does, but we can understand the underlining reasons.
> 
> True me, we know what "human right experts" are nothing but hypocritical idiots.


most people from EU know very little about China. but wigo you can't blame them for that. The only source they can get is the local China-bashing media. So you can't expect too much out of them.


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## wigo (Jan 23, 2006)

LEAFS FANATIC said:


> That is great news.
> 
> All I am saying is that China should not be the model you want to compare to. They are too corrupt.
> 
> .


You know, you are such a person who keeps showing your ignorance, please take a look at this corruption ranking http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html

pay attention to where are authoriterian China and decromatic India, Russia and Ukrain.


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## messiah (Sep 11, 2002)

Leafy the rest of his post is about his hopes that Cyprus realizes such projects too.It doesn't have anything to do with Turkey or my post. One doesn't have to study english in order to understand the context of his post!


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## messiah (Sep 11, 2002)

LEAFS FANATIC said:


> That was funny and clever!
> 
> I know exactly what you are reffering to. :cheers:


were you drinking Mthyos,Marathon or any amercian beer?


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## cyberjaya (Mar 21, 2006)

wigo said:


> You know, you are such an ignorant people keeps showing your stupidity, please take a look at this corruption ranking http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html
> 
> pay attention to where is authoroterian China and decromatic India, Russia and Ukrain.
> 
> It is obvious that corruption is more of economic issue.


oh, good to know. In terms of corruption, Turkey is better than China but very close. China is better than India and Russia. Greece is NOT MUCH better than them either


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## LEAFS FANATIC (Dec 13, 2004)

messiah said:


> were you drinking Mthyos,Marathon or any amercian beer?



Hehehehe....Beleive it or not, it was Budweiser and it cost 12 Euros for one damn bottle! Friggin thiefs!


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## Lombak (Sep 29, 2004)

LEAFS FANATIC said:


> That was funny and clever!
> 
> I know exactly what you are reffering to. :cheers:


Hehehe Ok lets try a mug this time. :cheers:


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## messiah (Sep 11, 2002)

LEAFS FANATIC said:


> Hehehehe....Beleive it or not, it was Budweiser and it cost 12 Euros for one damn bottle! Friggin thiefs!


Once I paid 19 € for two bottles beer (0.33 cl) in Paris! I was so angry that I didn't ask the price first!! :bash: It was a small pub, nothing special!!


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## icy (Dec 30, 2004)

Some people can never get rid of their antagonistic behaviors..How pity


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## LEAFS FANATIC (Dec 13, 2004)

messiah said:


> Once I paid 19 € for two bottles beer (0.33 cl) in Paris! I was so angry that I didn't ask the price first!! :bash: It was a small pub, nothing special!!



That's ludicrous man! I thought maybe the Mythos beer would be cheaper since it was domestic, but they were selling that for 10 Euros! In Toronto I can buy 3 beers for that price at any bar or club!


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## sk (Dec 6, 2005)

hm...i dont understand whats wrong with my first post and why some people misunderstood it...so just to make it clear....turkey is developing fast and this is good, lets hope it will continue.it has nothing to do with human rights or political issues
as for major projects in greece(bc someone had asked),many were made and many more are being made or planned ,eg. thessaloniki metro,new airports in iraklio,ioannina and thessaloniki, many motorways(check the greek threads for more info).as for the scale of some of these projects keep in mind that turkey is a big country so big projects are needed to be able to cope with the bigger population. also keep in mind that eu today is not the same like it was 15 or 20 years ago
i hope this post clears up any previous misunderstandings,if there were any...


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## wigo (Jan 23, 2006)

icy said:


> Some people can never get rid of their antagonistic behaviors..How pity


I assume you are referring the greek guy LEAFS. I only target someboy who attacks my country unreasonably.

Anyway, pity is overstating since I know everything has its reason behind. 

And I want to caution anyone who has problem with China to think, use your brain if you have one, "why in this forum none of those having problem with China's human rights are Chinese, but all westerners?"


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## Ozcan (Feb 4, 2005)

Greek gay ROFL.


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## icy (Dec 30, 2004)

I think China is doing very well in everything..I know electronics is cheaper in China..I know many Chinese people..China is developing for sure...

Wigo do you know that some people do not see the wrong things in their countries but try to put some dirt to other countries...You may call this jealousy, antagonism, or any word.. maybe paranoia too...


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## LEAFS FANATIC (Dec 13, 2004)

wigo said:


> I assume you are referring the greek gay LEEFS. I only target someboy who attachs my country unreasonably.
> 
> Anyway, pity is overstating since I know everything has its reason behind.
> 
> And I want to caution anyone who has problem with China think, use your brain if you have one, "why none of those having problem with China's human rights are Chinese, but all westerners, in this forum?"





My neighbour in Toronto is Chinese. He tells me all kinds of stuff from his days in China and it ain't pretty. Who are you trying to kid? You think calling me gay bothers me? Guess what? It doesn't.

So stop trying to convince us that China is some human rights paradise. Speak to the Tibetans or the poor people of Beijing who are being "moved" as the city prepares for the 2008 olympics. Then come talk to me.


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## LEAFS FANATIC (Dec 13, 2004)

Ozcan said:


> Greek gay ROFL.



Hey little girl....

Go crawl back into your little cave. Your pet weasel is getting lonely!

Punk.


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## LEAFS FANATIC (Dec 13, 2004)

icy said:


> Wigo do you know that some people do not see the wrong things in their countries but try to put some dirt to other countries...You may call this jealousy, antagonism, or any word.. maybe paranoia too...



And some people follow others and look for the first opportunity to attack them. You may call this jealousy, antagonism, or any word.. maybe paranoia too...

:cheers:


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## financial way (Jul 29, 2005)

yes mate, good luck to Turkey...


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## LEAFS FANATIC (Dec 13, 2004)

Artagun said:


> For this message you should be punished... Where are the moderators?



It's interesting that you want me punished for this message. I wonder if you read the post where wigo called me gay *UNPROVOKED*.

Of course you don't say anything about that. How convenient.

I can admit I may have over-reacted with my post so, for that, I will edit it.


However, I must point out how funny it is to see some people not being able to accept criticism and becoming so defensive whenever somebody points out shortfalls of their country. What is this site for? To pretend that our nations are perfect? HA! No nation is perfect!

And yes, I am of Greek background and if you visit the Euroscrapers forum you will see that I have posted over 1,000 messages along with thousands of pictures. Trying to paint me as being "inappropriate" is ridiculous because I can accept criticisms of Greece, unlike many others here who cannot accept my criticisms of China.

Oh well, back to the topic......

Turkey is growing and so is China. Good for them. I wish them both nothing but prosperity.

:cheers:


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## dono (Mar 17, 2006)

turkiye, turkiye!!


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## clavy (Mar 22, 2006)

LEAFS FANATIC said:


> My neighbour in Toronto is Chinese. He tells me all kinds of stuff from his days in China and it ain't pretty. Who are you trying to kid? You think calling me gay bothers me? Guess what? It doesn't.
> 
> So stop trying to convince us that China is some human rights paradise. Speak to the Tibetans or the poor people of Beijing who are being "moved" as the city prepares for the 2008 olympics. Then come talk to me.


When did he leave China? if it is 80s,I think maybe true,under planned economy,everyone had to work with order,such as house,work,healthcare,so people had to flatter leader or bribe to obtain things,so there was power eager or more.But now it is market economy,we can do things freely.We don't work under so many ordrers.
Now many people want to make money,so they made politics excuse.
About Tibet,the GDP per capital has passed 1000 dollars,much higher than India.There're some pictures of Tibet.


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## Monkey (Oct 1, 2002)

^ The people in Tibet who are earning all this additional GDP are ethnic Han Chinese who are being deliberately encouraged to move there by the Chinese government. The Chinese government aims to install a Han Chinese majority there who are loyal to Beijing. Meanwhile ethnic Tibetans are living in abject poverty and their culture is being systematically and deliberately destroyed. The whole world is digusted by China's actions in Tibet. Do not defend the indefensible!!


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## Chalaco (Aug 29, 2004)

Very Impressive! I hope dearly that Turkey joins the EU soon...I know it will! 

Greetings!


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## clavy (Mar 22, 2006)

Restaurant


















Some Bars


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## wigo (Jan 23, 2006)

Monkey said:


> ^ The people in Tibet who are earning all this additional GDP are ethnic Han Chinese who are being deliberately encouraged to move there by the Chinese government. The Chinese government aims to install a Han Chinese majority there who are loyal to Beijing. Meanwhile ethnic Tibetans are living in abject poverty and their culture is being systematically and deliberately destroyed. The whole world is digusted by China's actions in Tibet. Do not defend the indefensible!!


Did you do a serious research or you just heard it from your western media crap, and took if for granted? BTW, how can a monkey represent the whole world?


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## clavy (Mar 22, 2006)

Monkey said:


> ^ The people in Tibet who are earning all this additional GDP are ethnic Han Chinese who are being deliberately encouraged to move there by the Chinese government. The Chinese government aims to install a Han Chinese majority there who are loyal to Beijing. Meanwhile ethnic Tibetans are living in abject poverty and their culture is being systematically and deliberately destroyed. The whole world is digusted by China's actions in Tibet. Do not defend the indefensible!!


Han move there? If we can endure the extremely climate,4000 meters high,lack of Oxygen, more ultraviolet (UV) rays, the common cold can easily turn to pneumonia and difficult traffic.


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## Gravitas (Sep 24, 2005)

Monkey said:


> ^ The people in Tibet who are earning all this additional GDP are ethnic Han Chinese who are being deliberately encouraged to move there by the Chinese government. The Chinese government aims to install a Han Chinese majority there who are loyal to Beijing. Meanwhile ethnic Tibetans are living in abject poverty and their culture is being systematically and deliberately destroyed. The whole world is digusted by China's actions in Tibet. Do not defend the indefensible!!


Did you know the British killed over 200 Tibetan monks just before WWII as a warning to the Tibetans not to interfere with their hunting?

Indian-Killers crying for Tibet?

Really, the only people who ever try to literally take over the world and destroy everyone's culture and replace it with Western values lecturing the Chinese about Tibet? Look what the British did in Africa. And you cry about the one miilion Tibetans dead in 40 plus years. In 1965, the Indonesians under the orders of the US to deal with the communists in their country, interpreted that as an excuse to kill over a million Chinese, living there long before communism was ever conceived, in less than a month.

What hypocrisy!

If the world is disgusted by China's actions, why does the world actively hate the British and Americans?


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## messiah (Sep 11, 2002)

new developments! The construction of this terminal began yesterday. Bodrum Int. Airport!


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## Istanbullu (May 20, 2004)

Both China and Turkey are taking huge steps forward. Both are great countries with great culture, history and people. I can say our future is bright. 

My mother visited China recently, she was really impressed with the country.


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## dono (Mar 17, 2006)

Monkey said:


> ^ The people in Tibet who are earning all this additional GDP are ethnic Han Chinese who are being deliberately encouraged to move there by the Chinese government. The Chinese government aims to install a Han Chinese majority there who are loyal to Beijing. Meanwhile ethnic Tibetans are living in abject poverty and their culture is being systematically and deliberately destroyed. The whole world is digusted by China's actions in Tibet. Do not defend the indefensible!!



totally agree with half of it. I am not sure if tibetians are oppressed (just might be a typical western propaganda) but it's a fact that "tibetians" are becoming minority in their own "state".


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## Gravitas (Sep 24, 2005)

Just like Indians in the US.


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## dono (Mar 17, 2006)

Gravitas said:


> Just like Indians in the US.



you mean the INDIANS from India or..The other ones are called NATIVE americans. They are EVRYTHING but Indians. Don't confuse the real Indians.


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## Gravitas (Sep 24, 2005)

dono said:


> you mean the INDIANS from India or..The other ones are called NATIVE americans. They are EVRYTHING but Indians. Don't confuse the real Indians.


Just using the terminology. Native Americans call themselves Indians so it's okay. "Native" or "American" aren't Native American words either.


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## Pax Sinica (Dec 10, 2005)

Just as funny as "all white people should go back to Europe".


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## Artagun (Mar 6, 2005)

LEAFS FANATIC said:


> It's interesting that you want me punished for this message. I wonder if you read the post where wigo called me gay *UNPROVOKED*.
> 
> Of course you don't say anything about that. How convenient.
> 
> ...


According to my perception your insult was several times more severe than his saying "gay" to you, if you consider "gay" as an insult. Well, as a citizen of european union you should not feel insulted if somebody calls you "gay".


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## Artagun (Mar 6, 2005)

China is doing some dirty stuff... this is almost sure, yet I do not know the scale. Talking with the information we acquire from western media is not right, since western media is always biased, prejiduced and used as a means of propaganda. Serious research should be done before talking further about human rights issues in China.


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## messiah (Sep 11, 2002)

a new project has been published today!!

Tamer group is looking for a plot in order to found a new neighbourhood in Istanbul.According to the plans the populatin at the beginning will be 500.000.
If they find enough space in Istanbul they are going to realize this project!! 
The whlole project will cost 8 billion dollars! 

:eek2:


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## dono (Mar 17, 2006)

Gravitas said:


> Just using the terminology. Native Americans call themselves Indians so it's okay. "Native" or "American" aren't Native American words either.



Neither is "Indian". It's all "european" terminology and latest is native american.


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## Ozcan (Feb 4, 2005)

Artagun said:


> China is not really a country to take as a model in every issue, yet many things can be learned from china. First of all, they are breaking the rules of the international Euro-American economy game. They might have some human rights problems, so do all other countries. Well, they have more human rights violations, but I am sure they will deal with these during their development. Look to Turkey, it is growing, quite fast, but experiencing a lot of problems in this way since it is playing according to the rules which were set by mainly US and Europe, and which never let's you beat the rule-setters. China is not playing according to that and now all of the rule-setters are afraid. In my opinion, Turkey should be more rebel, since it has potential to overtake most of the for-now-economically-better countries, yet we are always partnering with them, and they prevent us to overtake them. It makes sense, since why would a country help another country to make it better than itself? Today's rich countries did not become rich with perfect human rights... Look all the history of today's rich countries and it is full with very severe human rights violations, disrespect and wars. As I say, buy being very nice, you cannot become rich... China is doing very well, yet not everything is perfect at the moment.


In my opinion, Turkey has benefitted a lot from its "partnership" with the EU and the US (in every aspect). Our democracy as well as our economy has improved a lot. I respect your opinion if you disagree, but this is what I truly believe.


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## Aquinas (Mar 19, 2006)

Ozcan said:


> In my opinion, Turkey has benefitted a lot from its "partnership" with the EU and the US (in every aspect). Our democracy as well as our economy has improved a lot. I respect your opinion if you disagree, but this is what I truly believe.
> 
> PS: BTW, what is all this "_punk_" talk here?


Correct.

Also, let's not forget that China bends the rules because it CAN. What are you going to do if China does not give a crap about the rules? Embargo them? That will make others more powerful whereas your economy will probably suffer. China is in a unique position of power, one which Turkey is not in by any means. If Turkey does funny business, all countries can pretty much safely and soundly ignore Turkey and revert their trade to China instead. To Turkey there are alternatives, to China there are not. That is the key factor here.


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## Ozcan (Feb 4, 2005)

^^I agree, China and India can't be compared to other nations.. they will probably lead the world in the future. But Turkey still has the potential to become a major power along with nations such as Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia etc..


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## Aquinas (Mar 19, 2006)

Ozcan said:


> ^^I agree, China and India can't be compared to other nations.. they will probably lead the world in the future. But Turkey still has the potential to become a major power along with nations such as Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia etc..


It will, there's no doubt. My point was just that if you want to play poker with the big boys, you need an ace up your sleeve.


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## Gravitas (Sep 24, 2005)

Double post. deleted.


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## Gravitas (Sep 24, 2005)

Aquinas said:


> Correct.
> 
> Also, let's not forget that China bends the rules because it CAN. What are you going to do if China does not give a crap about the rules? Embargo them? That will make others more powerful whereas your economy will probably suffer. China is in a unique position of power, one which Turkey is not in by any means. If Turkey does funny business, all countries can pretty much safely and soundly ignore Turkey and revert their trade to China instead. To Turkey there are alternatives, to China there are not. That is the key factor here.


Who makes those rules? The US has rules for the world to prevent anyone from aquiring nuclear power, yet can decide to sell nuclear technology to India who hasn't signed the non-proliferation treaty which according to the rules no one is suppose to sell nuclear technology to.

Those who are expected to follow the rules break them when they don't. Those that make up the rules and don't follow them is just called "changing their minds" but still expects everyone else to follow them.


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## cyberjaya (Mar 21, 2006)

Gravitas said:


> Who makes those rules? The US has rules for the world to prevent anyone from aquiring nuclear power, yet can decide to sell nuclear technology to India who hasn't signed the non-proliferation treaty which according to the rules no one is suppose to sell nuclear technology to.
> 
> Those who are expected to follow the rules break them when they don't. Those that make up the rules and don't follow them is just called "changing their minds" but still expects everyone else to follow them.


how can you challenge the masters of the world? they can decide what is right and what is wrong on this earth. they can criticize any country for its human right record. they can invade any country without any convincible reason. they can rape any other religions and show it on the pictures. The world is just their backyard.


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## wigo (Jan 23, 2006)

^ and, US sodiers can rape Japanese wamen without being prosecuted, hehe, deal with it.


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## Shogun (Jan 16, 2005)

China is a country with more than 1 bilions of peoples

Turchia have like 70 - 100 milions of people.

How can be comparate?

It is like if Turchia is a state inside China

Turchia is only in a fase of developement that is normal, it is becaming a normal state of Europe

It more easy compare European Union - China


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## messiah (Sep 11, 2002)

who compares Turkey to China here?


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## Giorgio (Oct 9, 2004)

Ofcourse Turkey is Europes China. 

A high population and low GDP Per Capita. 

I cant wait for Turkey to be rich! Greece will benefit too!


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## Timur (Nov 26, 2005)

All superbs projects!! amazing! Turkey is gonna be japan of europe not china.


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## dono (Mar 17, 2006)

Timur said:


> All superbs projects!! amazing! Turkey is gonna be japan of europe not china.



thats bad, considering the fact that we are talking about FUTURE.


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## messiah (Sep 11, 2002)

[Gioяgos] said:


> Ofcourse Turkey is Europes China.
> 
> A high population and low GDP Per Capita.
> 
> I cant wait for Turkey to be rich! Greece will benefit too!


Maybe some day Greece can *dream* of these projects too! :cheers:

Greece can already benefit! Just trade with Istanbul.Population and GPD is approximately equal!


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## mankawabi (Dec 30, 2005)

No. China is Europe's China. Turkey is Europe's Mexico.


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## Aquinas (Mar 19, 2006)

Timur said:


> All superbs projects!! amazing! Turkey is gonna be japan of europe not china.


Actually that would be more accurate.

If we take the PwC numbers for 2050, this seems more likely.

Japan's GDP right now is 30,500 and Turkey's GDP is then estimated to be around 40,000 (in terms of 2006 dollars). Of course Japan will grow as well (although I doubt that it will really take off, since Japan's population right now is shrinking), so that only means that Turkey will be in the future what Japan is right now.

I also agree with Turkey being more comparable to Mexico than China.


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## messiah (Sep 11, 2002)

Russia,Mexico,Brazil,China,Turkey and Vietnam will be among the "super powers" in the future! No need to discuss about it!


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## LEAFS FANATIC (Dec 13, 2004)

messiah said:


> Population and GPD is approximately equal!



Wow! You must be proud! Now tell me, excluding Istanbul what is the GDP of the rest of Turkey? More specifically, what is the GDP (per capita) of the entire eastern region of Turkey?


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## Monkey (Oct 1, 2002)

Gravitas said:


> Did you know the British killed over 200 Tibetan monks just before WWII as a warning to the Tibetans not to interfere with their hunting?
> 
> Indian-Killers crying for Tibet?
> 
> ...


No I'm not a hypocrite. Even at its worst (and Britain's worst was definitely the trans-Atlantic Slave Trade) The British Empire killed far fewer people worldwide than Communist China did in a much shorter time period. Communist China is a much bigger killer than Britain has ever been. Too often Chinese only ever complain about foreigners. For example it's true that Japan killed millions of Chinese very brutally in WWII. It's true that Koizumi is extremely insensitive visiting the Yakasuni Shrine and that Japanese school textbooks gloss over Japanese atrocities. However Mao is still lionised by Chinese tourists visiting his embalmed remains in Beijing even though Mao's regime killed far more Chinese, and completely unnecessarily, than Japanese Imperialism ever did. How is that different from Japanese paying their respects at the Yakasuni Shrine? And Chinese textbooks also gloss over the atrocities. How is that different from Japanese? Who's the hypocrite now?

And China has killed far more than 200 Tibetan monks and much more recently too!! Really I think you need to take a long hard look at China before you call me a hypocrite. China also keeps the vile military junta in power in Burma and supported the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia which killed a third of Cambodia's population in three years. They effectively prop up the vile regime in North Korea too and are aggressively threateneing to invade Taiwan against the wishes of the Taiwanese population. China has also aggressively attacked India and Vietnam since WWII. Britain is certainly not a lilly white innocent with a clean past but it's still a much lighter shade of grey than China.


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## Joya (Sep 3, 2005)

I'd rather prefer an economically equal or balanced world including Africa by 2050 than Turkey being one of the so called superpowers. A lot are starving around the world and the numbers are increasing day by day. I really wonder what I will see in 2050 if I can.


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## Aquinas (Mar 19, 2006)

[Gioяgos] said:


> What people dont understand is that yes, today a poor population is willing to work for very low wages to do even jobs that require very hard labour. But what happens in 2050 When the population is richer and demands better wages? Markets will miagrate to the poor nations with high populations in the year of 2050 and the poor nations of Today will rapidly decline.
> 
> The Economy will basically stall by 2030 with the growth that Turkey is making currently, but the growth will die down alot by 2010.


Your reasoning is correct, however, there are more factors than just human capital to be considered. Do not forget that automation is also important and rapidly being expanded in countries such as Japan. As Turkey approaches the limit at which people are basically being paid "European" wages, the growth in the production sector will obviously stall, but the effects of automation could have a large impact as well. Also, there are other sectors which do not depend on raw manpower, such as software development, Turkey could concentrate on them after reaching a low level of growth.

I think it is not too sound to make predictions when the growth will stall based on dates, the size of the economy and the population growth are the key factors here. I personally think that Turkey will continue growing quickly until it reaches the level of Italy or Spain right now, at which point the further growth rate will depend on the economic strategy the country is pursuing as well as the population growth.

Another (maybe unrelated) question of course is: Which alternatives are there? If the PwC prediction for 2050 is right, pretty much all countries which are now considered providers of "cheap labor" will de facto have reached almost European standards of wages and quality of life. The only underdeveloped places with a large population and low wages that I can think of right now are Africa and the middle east. Africa has too many ongoing conflicts and too ridiculous an extent of corruption to be a sound place for investments, but the middle east could, if it is somehow able to overthrow the current backwards governments, become another, although divided, powerhouse, but their problem would be dependency on oil reserves (much like it is right now already).



[Gioяgos] said:


> Greece and Turkey need to work together.
> I mean seriously now.
> If the Turkish economy stalls before it enters the EU, its bye bye to Turkey.
> Turkey needs to enter the EU if it believe it will be a superpower by 2050. The EU will serve as a safety net among other things such as further prospertity and economic stability.
> ...


Of course Turkey needs to join the EU. While a short-term drawback of doing so might be brain-drain and a shortage in cheap labor in Turkey (because of emigration), it will force Turkey to remain on a path of sound economic and social choices. I do not doubt that Turkey will be able to sustain growth until it joins the EU, since the IMF is currently watching Turkey with an eagle eye.

Concerning Greek-Turkish cooperation: Of course the countries need to cooperate. Personally, I see Greece as the "link" between Turkey and the EU, since it combines parts of the cultures of both.


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## bahar (Nov 10, 2004)

great statistics. I was initially shocked to see a 60% something hyperinflation in this 21st century. But I was really impressed with the speed at which things improve. Exports numbers are great. 

By the way, what sort of products are Turkish competitive at which make it able to export such a large amount? Any oil related products? Which market or countries are Turkish largest trading partners?

Thanks!


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## Aquinas (Mar 19, 2006)

bahar said:


> great statistics. I was initially shocked to see a 60% something hyperinflation in this 21st century. But I was really impressed with the speed at which things improve. Exports numbers are great.
> 
> By the way, what sort of products are Turkish competitive at which make it able to export such a large amount? Any oil related products? Which market or countries are Turkish largest trading partners?
> 
> Thanks!


Turkey has exactly 0 oil (as a matter of fact, Turkey has the highest gas prices on the planet), and as such the only money that Turkey makes from oil would come from the pipelines running through the country. I do not know about the size of the plastics industry in Turkey, however, the PVC business (especially windowframes) has been booming lately.

The main production sectors of Turkey are automobiles and textiles. Tourism is also a big sector, but that is obviously something you can't export.


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## Giorgio (Oct 9, 2004)

Aquinas said:


> Your reasoning is correct, however, there are more factors than just human capital to be considered. Do not forget that automation is also important and rapidly being expanded in countries such as Japan. As Turkey approaches the limit at which people are basically being paid "European" wages, the growth in the production sector will obviously stall, but the effects of automation could have a large impact as well. Also, there are other sectors which do not depend on raw manpower, such as software development, Turkey could concentrate on them after reaching a low level of growth.
> 
> I think it is not too sound to make predictions when the growth will stall based on dates, the size of the economy and the population growth are the key factors here. I personally think that Turkey will continue growing quickly until it reaches the level of Italy or Spain right now, at which point the further growth rate will depend on the economic strategy the country is pursuing as well as the population growth.
> 
> ...


I admit I have a limited knowledge in this field of economics and you certainly seem to know what you are talking about. I based my opinion on logical facts that I would really just assume. Sorry if I sounded very uneducated about it.


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## didu (Jun 13, 2005)

Aquinas said:


> Tourism is also a big sector, but that is obviously something you can't export.


Of course you can, the more foreign tourists you attract to your country, the
bigger your tourism export will be.


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## Giorgio (Oct 9, 2004)

didu said:


> Of course you can, the more foreign tourists you attract to your country, the
> bigger your tourism export will be.


You mean Tourism Revenue. 

Tourism Export if anything would be Turks leaving Turkey to travel to other nations.


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## Qingshui (Mar 25, 2006)

I'm sorry to be off topic but i got a little agitated reading this topis. 
Why are you china boys so defensive? I'm not denyning your claim that western countrys have done and stil do bad things, but why can't you accept that your government, like everybody's else government, is telling you lies about your country's history because it in there best interest?


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## bahar (Nov 10, 2004)

Aquinas said:


> Turkey has exactly 0 oil (as a matter of fact, Turkey has the highest gas prices on the planet), and as such the only money that Turkey makes from oil would come from the pipelines running through the country. I do not know about the size of the plastics industry in Turkey, however, the PVC business (especially windowframes) has been booming lately.
> 
> The main production sectors of Turkey are automobiles and textiles. Tourism is also a big sector, but that is obviously something you can't export.


thanks for your information. I hope there will be even more development in this part of the world.


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## wigo (Jan 23, 2006)

Qingshui said:


> I'm sorry to be off topic but i got a little agitated reading this topis.
> Why are you china boys so defensive? I'm not denyning your claim that western countrys have done and stil do bad things, but why can't you accept that your government, like everybody's else government, is telling you lies about your country's history because it in there best interest?


Because we know exactly that western countries are so nasty to use "human rights" as a tool to screw others, a good example is Falun Gong, which every Chinese knows very well. We have a post-doc here who has personally seen a practioner jumped from building. So we know what west "human rights" truely means to China although many westners simply are unaware of it.

Just another example, the "shock therapy" perscription by west to Russia which bankrupted this country is just a naive mistake or an intentional plot???

So before you come here talk about dirty of China, dig out that of your country first. As least China has never been like US, to orchastrate a coup in Chile and assasinate Chilean president Allende. Of course, with regard to this, none of the westners is interested.

Over.


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## Qingshui (Mar 25, 2006)

I completely agree with you on the Chili issue, but are you saying that China with its long history of tribute states never ever did a thing like that...putting it's own interrest before the interrest of the people of an other state? Open your eyes...!
I haven't been talking about human rights (which seems to be your stick to beat westerners with), only about how goverments lie to their own people, but you seem to believe the chinese government is an exeption.
You are very assumming telling me i do not know about recent history and the diffences between east and west, but you know what; i've spend a long time digging in my own country's dirty history (and in other country's), and i don't believe what there telling me, and now that i'm already "here" i still dont believe what everybody's telling me, but apparently you do...
When someone asks a question about a problem in China the reaction "there's problems in other places too" is NOT an answer.
Besides, your NOT answering my question... Because western goverment are hypocrit you dont have to challenge your own goverments motivations? Ohh please.....


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## Qingshui (Mar 25, 2006)

OHH and yes my signature is from a famous British comedyshow, in case you are offended...its just a joke


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## Qingshui (Mar 25, 2006)

In case you still dont understand; i'm not saying western goverments are not 'quote' so nasty to screw others 'end quote', i'm just saying chinese goverment is ALSO so nasty to screw others. But it seems that in your opinion because others do it it's a good thing to do it. Well, i don't agree.


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## wigo (Jan 23, 2006)

If every country is so nasty to screw each other, then what is the point to bring up the "human rights" issue, which your country is so enthusiatic about China.

China is the fastest growing economy, which is not a lie, and for a poor country, is what all matters. Although we know our goverment has many lies for sure, so what?


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## wigo (Jan 23, 2006)

Anyway, I hope the political issue should be put aside, because it is just purely a waste of time.


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## Qingshui (Mar 25, 2006)

Last thing, that i find british comedy funny or that i dont agree with some chinese politics doesn't mean i am british or american, and it certanly doesn't mean i agree with their politics!


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## Qingshui (Mar 25, 2006)

i wasn't bringing up the human rights question, you where.


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## Qingshui (Mar 25, 2006)

And i'm very happy China does economicly well, i think that is a good thing, not only for China but for the whole world, but i also think that its fair to have some critisism on Chinese politics, just as it is fair to have critisism on politics of other country's.


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## Qingshui (Mar 25, 2006)

Anyway, your right


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## I-275westcoastfl (Feb 15, 2005)

Intresting video and sounds true.


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## Ozcan (Feb 4, 2005)

Aquinas said:


> Turkey has exactly 0 oil (as a matter of fact, Turkey has the highest gas prices on the planet), and as such the only money that Turkey makes from oil would come from the pipelines running through the country. I do not know about the size of the plastics industry in Turkey, however, the PVC business (especially windowframes) has been booming lately.
> 
> The main production sectors of Turkey are automobiles and textiles. Tourism is also a big sector, but that is obviously something you can't export.


Turkey has a diverse industry, the electronics industry is also significant as well as food processing.


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## Ozcan (Feb 4, 2005)

houston_texan said:


> Superpowers of the 2050's are;
> 1-USA
> 2-China
> 3-India
> ...


In that order, Turkey the 4th largest economy? That's far from realistic. Countries like Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia etc. will most likely have larger economies than Turkey. Do you even know what the size of those nations' populations are? Besides, Germany, France and the UK will continue to have larger economies than Turkey by 2050.


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## Aquinas (Mar 19, 2006)

Ozcan said:


> Turkey has a diverse industry, the electronics industry is also significant as well as food processing.


Oh yes, I forgot the agricultural sector, which is also (unnecessarily, actually) big.

But electronics? Wouldn't know of that, but it might be. What exactly, in terms of electronics, is produced in Turkey?


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## Ozcan (Feb 4, 2005)

Aquinas said:


> Oh yes, I forgot the agricultural sector, which is also (unnecessarily, actually) big.
> 
> But electronics? Wouldn't know of that, but it might be. What exactly, in terms of electronics, is produced in Turkey?


tv's, refrigerators anything you can think of. This might give you an idea: 

http://www.ien-online.com/SpecialReportTurkeyInFocus/article3.htm

http://www.electronics.ca/reports/industrial/data_turkey.html


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## Aquinas (Mar 19, 2006)

Ozcan said:


> tv's, refrigerators anything you can think of. This might give you an idea:
> 
> http://www.ien-online.com/SpecialReportTurkeyInFocus/article3.htm
> 
> http://www.electronics.ca/reports/industrial/data_turkey.html


I was actually mostly wondering if Turkey produced computer parts, what with Bill Gates announcing a low-cost computer to drive Turkey's computer usage up to 80%.


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## Ozcan (Feb 4, 2005)

^^ to be honest, I do not know where Turkey stands in that field.


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## Nemo (Jul 5, 2004)

Yes, just another Turkey economy-boom/superpower-thread.........pfff..


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## Aquinas (Mar 19, 2006)

Good Nemo post.


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## Tekir (Jun 4, 2003)

Istanbul Metro system:


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## benedetton_alexandra (Jul 17, 2005)

LEAFS FANATIC said:


> My neighbour in Toronto is Chinese. He tells me all kinds of stuff from his days in China and it ain't pretty. Who are you trying to kid? You think calling me gay bothers me? Guess what? It doesn't.
> 
> So stop trying to convince us that China is some human rights paradise. Speak to the Tibetans or the poor people of Beijing who are being "moved" as the city prepares for the 2008 olympics. Then come talk to me.


ur too politically motivated i dont like ppl like u


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## DrasQue (Jan 10, 2006)

^^ You know he is Greek,so it is very normal to say such things...
But again I will say nothing,
I can only say,
I hope one day there will be same *dream projects * in his country,too.kay:


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## la bestia kuit (Aug 10, 2005)

wow


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## rj2uman (Sep 22, 2002)

A good friend and his wife just got back from Turkey. They said it was a beautiful, friendly country. And were surprised at how the modern and ancient mixed so easily. Being from Seattle they hated the coffee though. But loved the coffee/cafe culture.


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## yusef (May 20, 2006)

I actually do feel that Turkey will be a superpower by 2050 if not much earlier.

It's military is already very advanced, it's economy right now is the 17th largest in the world.....and growing and a very fast rate. And it's GDP per capita by then will be over 40,000 as forcasted. By then it's population will be around the range of 90-95 million, not to mention that it may be a member of the EU.


All that aside, I have a question I wish someone could answer. I want to know what the current GDP per capita in Turkey is. On the CIA website it says that 2005 figures have it at 7,800, but then I heard the Turkish government, earlier this year, speaking about how it had reached 5,000. And then a few months ago Turkish state minister claimed that the Turkey's actual GDP per capita figure could be somewhere between 10,000-15,000...if not higher. So, I hope you can appreciate why I'm confused.


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## jsogdi (Oct 31, 2006)

yusef said:


> I actually do feel that Turkey will be a superpower by 2050 if not much earlier.
> 
> It's military is already very advanced, it's economy right now is the 17th largest in the world.....and growing and a very fast rate. And it's GDP per capita by then will be over 40,000 as forcasted. By then it's population will be around the range of 90-95 million, not to mention that it may be a member of the EU.
> 
> ...


------------------------------------------------------------------------
The confusion lies in the difference between nominal numbers for GDP versus purchasing power parity (PPP) GDP. In Turkey, like many countries a dollar goes a lot farther than it will in the US, therefore, relative to the New Lira, the Dollar is overvalued in the international exchange market, so the dollar figure for gdp (nominal GDP) is an undervaluation. The PPP numbers account for the discrepancy and give an more realistic value of what goods can be bought in the country with its GDP.

Erdogan, and the Turkish government usually give numbers based on exchange rates, not PPP. in this sense, some of the most recent numbers I've heard said the nominal per capita GDP was over $5,500. In PPP terms, the CIA currently gives $8,900 for 2006. Given the given the growth of the economy and the recent discovery that the Turkish population is smaller then previously estimated (67-68 million as opposed to 70-73 million), the current PPP GDP per capita is probably ~$10,000. A figure of 15,000 would put it ahead of Poland and Russia, which, given the current state of affairs is not reasonable. This may be true for the western part and central parts of the country, but given the poverty of the east and southeast, Turkey still has a lot of work to do.


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## Whiteeclipse (Mar 31, 2005)

*UofT* said:


> Turkey also has the human capital growing, They will add another 25million Turks to their population by the year 2050. Turkey will have close to 100 million people by then and if current trends continue its economy does have the potential to be on par with Spain's in a couple of decades.
> 
> Canada export web site (a gov of Canada site), is encouraging Canadians to Invest in Turkey. Turkey apparently at the moment being offers the highest return in all of europe per invested dollar.



New registration system shows Turkey’s population smaller than thought
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=107942


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## Poryaa (Sep 26, 2004)

> Originally Posted by houston_texan
> Superpowers of the 2050's are;
> 1-USA
> 2-China
> ...


As for GDP the US will already be overtaken by China in 2050


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## googleabcd (Jul 22, 2006)

Considering Turkey's population, I would say it is Europe's Korea


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## Mekky II (Oct 29, 2003)

It's better to say that Turkey is the future european California : It is truth to say that Istanbul will be hit by an earthquake like Los Angelès ! :lol:


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## Shogun (Jan 16, 2005)

DrasQue said:


> ^^ You know he is Greek,so it is very normal to say such things...
> But again I will say nothing,
> I can only say,
> I hope one day there will be same *dream projects * in his country,too.kay:


Hu.. bad greek people...

Yeah, Turkey must be a real dream country.
For this there are millions of turkish immigrants in Europe.

Yeah is like China, the population try to escape


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## Influence (Sep 25, 2008)




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