# GERMANY - Stadium and Arena Development News



## Kampflamm

*GERMANY - Favorite FIFA World Cup 2006 Stadium*

*Berlin (capacity 76,000)*































































































































*Munich (66,000)*









































































*Dortmund (66,000)*

























































*Stuttgart (60,000)*

































































*Gelsenkirchen (52,000)*













































































































































































*Hamburg (50,000)*























































































































*Frankfurt (48,500)*










































































*Kaiserslautern (48,000)*









































































































































*Cologne (46,134)*























































































































*Nuremberg (45,500)*














































































































*Hanover (45,000)*










































































*Leipzig (44,000)*


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## brummad

berlin deffo...after the roof is done this place will be like a big couldron of noise..cannot wait for WC 2006 well done Germany


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## il fenomeno

im really pissed off for all the world cup finals are held in fucken athletic stadiums. the has not been a single real footbal stadium since the 80s world cups (i dont like to call stade de france and the thing in tokyo football stadiums).

therefore berlin sucks. munich is great. frankfurt, cologne and hamburg are second.
the others are quite good, except for the athletic stadiums. they just suck. the fifa should forbid them.


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## sam88

@ il fenomeno

Dann hätte Deutschland aber ein 70.000+ Stadion zur WC weniger und kein Spiel mehr in der Hauptstadt.


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## ManchesterISwonderful

Most of the them are very good 'football' stadiums. (bar the ones with the tracks)

Munich is the best..... but I do like Leipzig.


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## Kampflamm

Check out these new pics from the Allianz Arena

The roof:


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## Kampflamm

Hanover is coming along nicely as well:


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## Guest

amen


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## Kampflamm

Frankfurt




















Hanover


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## Kampflamm




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## Kampflamm




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## Kampflamm

Westfalenstadion before extensions began


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## Kampflamm

More Hanover pics:


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## Kampflamm

Berlin















































Munich


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## alexx02

I am a big fan of the Berlin stadium, but I believe the blue track is jarring, and does not go with the rest of the stadium. The roof is incredible though.


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## Raddie

Maybe you have to put it different, I don't like them because the Arena has one. 
But classic stands are part of clubculture.


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## teunster

Hamburg, the other ones are extremely repulsive.


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## Kampflamm

Borussia Park looks pretty cheap IMO


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## Kampflamm

More Frankfurt


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## dudz

i'd say munich followed by berlin. wow! they're really awesome structures. wish we have one or two of those, but football is not really popular in the philippines. we're more of a basketball country.


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## FrankWhite

*some more Frankfurt*


















@ checker: why should it be too low? everyboy can see the pitch and the cube


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## larved

5 Stadiums for the Confederations-Cup which starts tomorrow

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,PB64-SUQ9MTA0ODAmbnI9MQ_3_3,00.html


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## johnz88

dortmund actually fits around 83,000 not 66,000


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## il fenomeno

they said the video cube in frankfurt is as high as the fifa standarts require and as high as in the arena auf schalke for example. then again it really looks low


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## GASpedal

johnz88 said:


> dortmund actually fits around 83,000 not 66,000


Official Fifa capacity is about 66,000.
There is no standing area during the WC, no places with obstructed view are being sold, safety purposes... etc.


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## Kampflamm

It looks to be high enough imo


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## FrankWhite

*more pics*

*Leipzig* 

















*Koeln* 









*Hannover* 









*Nürnberg* 









*Frankfurt*


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## Mo Rush

WOW, germany must help south africa for 2010


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## FrankWhite

Mo Rush said:


> WOW, germany must help south africa for 2010


hey mo, i've seen the stadium models for 2010. 
if those are going to look only half as good in reality as they do on the computer screen; you guys will have the best stadiums ever for a world cup.


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## Kampflamm

I'm really not that impressed by the South African designs. They're nice but rather generic.


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## MoreOrLess

Kampflamm said:


> I'm really not that impressed by the South African designs. They're nice but rather generic.


They don't really stand out much to me either(although from what Mo's posted in the past I wouldnt be supprized to see a few changes) but they do look to have the capacity and decent facilities, that should always be the first priority IMHO. Just look at France 98, great main stadium but then only 1 not so great 50K plus stadium with almost half of the rest not even reaching 40k.


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## King-Tomislav

il fenomeno said:


> im really pissed off for all the world cup finals are held in fucken athletic stadiums. the has not been a single real footbal stadium since the 80s world cups (i dont like to call stade de france and the thing in tokyo football stadiums).
> 
> therefore berlin sucks. munich is great. frankfurt, cologne and hamburg are second.
> the others are quite good, except for the athletic stadiums. they just suck. the fifa should forbid them.


I agree. I hate athletic stadiums. They are renovating/building a new stadium in Zagreb (Dinamo Zagreb and National Team will play on it) and though they at first wanted to remove the athletic track, now they decided they are going to keep it! Damn! 

I only disagree on the Stade de France - I like it a lot!

German stadiums - Gelsenkirchen, Koln, Hamburg, Munchen, Frankfurt, Leipzig and Dortmund are great


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## FrankWhite

*Frankfurt @ Confed Cup*


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## SEED

Munich one looks  its unusual.. and i like it when its lit up durin night time..


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## Morten M

Nice hole in the roof in Frankfurt 
:hahaha: :rofl: 

A brand new stadium and a big hole in roof, some engineer must be very embaresed about that. :rofl:


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## il fenomeno

actually it wasnt a hole but an emergency valve, that opened because the gutters couldnt handle the water anymore.


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## Lares

Munich stadium is one of the best in the world.


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## Morten M

il fenomeno said:


> actually it wasnt a hole but an emergency valve, that opened because the gutters couldnt handle the water anymore.


What a stupid way to construct a roof, if the water can't slow away by it self, then whats the point with a retractable roof. I have been in a stadium with retractable when there was a snow storm outside, but nothing came in.


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## Zizu

Well, it's a completely new kind of roof construction for it consists of a special kind of fabric basically. Just like a giant canopy top. Thus there weren't many chances to test it, especially under such extreme conditions. Even Frankfurt Airport had to be closed down for about an hour due to the bad weather conditions there.


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## FCB_Flo

Although the roof in Frankfurt didn't worked out that good... 

Without the roof they wouldn't have been able to play the Confed-Cup-Final ! The weather-conditions were just to extreme !


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## FCB_Flo

AllianzArena in the media:



> *Dazzling arena*
> Munich's new Allianz Arena, created by Swiss architects Jacques Herzog and Pierre de Meuron for the 2006 World Cup, has been described as "the coolest football stadium in the world."


SATURDAY 2030HKT, 1730CET, 0730 & 1130ET
SUNDAY 1430HKT, 0930 & 2030CET, 1430ET

more on cnn.com
link to cnn - design 360


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## Mo Rush

an athletics track for a world cup final is just perfect..


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## MoreOrLess

Kaiserlautern would be in my top half dozen 2006 WC grounds along with Munich, Berlin, Dortmund, Gelsenkirchen and Frankfurt.

If were talking prem grounds then I'd personally say that the two best redevolped old stadiums are Old Trafford and Villa Park.


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## fman80939

Kaiserslautern per se is an excellent example for an intelligent, sound redevelopment of an existing structure under very difficult circumstances (original building, size of expansion, geological characteristics of the site).
However, in the end way too much money has been spent and the size of the ground is well out of proportion for Kaiserslautern's regular operation.


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## GNU

Kampflamm said:


> Lower part should be standing ground


are you sure? as far as I know Kaiserslautern will be a full-seater in the Bundesliga.


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## Kampflamm

On Stadionwelt it still says:

Capacity: 40.721

Seats: 27.982
Standing: 12.739


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## GNU

bubomb said:


> Have you seen Bundesliga average attendances!!! It's crazy - 40000 average per game, absolutely massive!! No country can get close to that!!


yes its great to see that the bundesliga managed to continually break its attendances records over the last 7 years or so.
But I think this year will be the last record breaking season.
A thing that helps to get these attendances is certainly the fact that many new stadiums have been built over the last years, and also that the prices for a ticket are very low compared to, lets say the premier league.

I recently watched the premier league and I was a bit shocked that, at some games the stadium wasnt even half full.
I also heard from the british media that the attendances are very low at the moment.
I think that this really has to do with the high prices (a premier league ticket costs around 3 times as much as a bundesliga ticket!!)
another reason is also that some clubs (chelsea,ManU) appear to be unbeatable for smaller clubs which takes a lot of the excitement connected with the game.

I think they should really take steps to lower the prices and maybe consider to bring back standing areas and go back to allow flags and other stuff in the stadiums again.also they shouldnt let the games start at ridiculous times just to achieve better viewing figures in asia.It kills the fanbases.

the premier league is a fantastic league and it really is a shame when the spectator figures drop.
some officials have to realize that the stadium audience is the most important thing to the game.


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## GNU

Kampflamm said:


> On Stadionwelt it still says:
> 
> Capacity: 40.721
> 
> Seats: 27.982
> Standing: 12.739


that must be the old figures for the start of the season.
The new capacity should be 48.500 seats.


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## MoreOrLess

Kampflamm said:


> On Stadionwelt it still says:
> 
> Capacity: 40.721
> 
> Seats: 27.982
> Standing: 12.739


Surely thats the current capacity? The stadium is going to hold 40,000+ as an all seater during the world cup afterall so with stadining room you'd expect it to be larger.


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## GNU

here:

http://www.fck.de/stadion/index.php

"Nach Abschluss der Umbau-Arbeiten Kapazität von 48.500 Sitzplätzen."


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## GNU

quite interesting that Kaiserslautern will have the same capacity as Frankfurt.


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## Kampflamm

Strange. I doubt FCK-Fans would accept that. 

Anyway, some other pics









































































Certainly looks like an all-seater in that pic


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## Kampflamm

This is what it used to look like:


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## ManchesterISwonderful

eddyk said:


> Looks old...not is.
> 
> 
> IMO St James in better, so is Old Trafford, The Emirates*, The Reebok arena, the City of Manchester Stadium, the Riverside Stadium, The Stadium of Light and maybe even Stamford Bridge.
> 
> But other than those 8...Kaiserslautern is better than any other stadium in the prem.
> 
> 
> 
> *UC.



Riverside and The NE stade da luz are very plastic. Riverside in particular. I like the Reebok, fantastic little ground. . . and the Council House is of course a quality stadium, if better from the outside. Reckon OT, St James, Reebok and CoM are better than Kaiserslauterns, but I do like this ground. Has character about it.


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## ManchesterISwonderful

Kampflamm said:


> This is what it used to look like:



Reminds me of Anfield, does that.


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## GNU

these old pics here perfectly show the transformation of the ground:

In the left front you can see the old height of the stand,and in the far background is the height to which all stands have been raised to by now.




























now:


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## GNU

Some nice pics from the Veltins-arena which I just found:

FC Schalke 04 vs. 1.FC Kaiserslautern










the team busses get a lot of attention


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## Kampflamm

Commercialism...


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## bubomb

Checker said:


> yes its great to see that the bundesliga managed to continually break its attendances records over the last 7 years or so.
> But I think this year will be the last record breaking season.
> A thing that helps to get these attendances is certainly the fact that many new stadiums have been built over the last years, and also that the prices for a ticket are very low compared to, lets say the premier league.
> 
> I recently watched the premier league and I was a bit shocked that, at some games the stadium wasnt even half full.
> I also heard from the british media that the attendances are very low at the moment.
> I think that this really has to do with the high prices (a premier league ticket costs around 3 times as much as a bundesliga ticket!!)
> another reason is also that some clubs (chelsea,ManU) appear to be unbeatable for smaller clubs which takes a lot of the excitement connected with the game.
> 
> I think they should really take steps to lower the prices and maybe consider to bring back standing areas and go back to allow flags and other stuff in the stadiums again.also they shouldnt let the games start at ridiculous times just to achieve better viewing figures in asia.It kills the fanbases.
> 
> the premier league is a fantastic league and it really is a shame when the spectator figures drop.
> some officials have to realize that the stadium audience is the most important thing to the game.



Chelsea are unbeatable to everybody in the Premiership. The league was decided before a ball was kicked, as is next season. I can guarantee you Chelsea will win the 2006/2007 league. The Premiership has turned into a really boring league with games rarely sold out.


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## GNU

bubomb said:


> Chelsea are unbeatable to everybody in the Premiership. The league was decided before a ball was kicked, as is next season. I can guarantee you Chelsea will win the 2006/2007 league. The Premiership has turned into a really boring league with games rarely sold out.


Thats true.
I think its dangerous if a billionaire comes along and financially outperforms everybody just for the fun of it.
a club should have a decent finance plan and not just somebody who poures in millions and millions of pounds.
Its not healthy for the rest of the league imo.


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## bubomb

There seems to be some confusion as to whether or not the ground will have standing. Even this good site below is unsure. If you look at the bottom of the page you can see question marks over the standing numbers???

I think it will have some kind of standing area.

http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/GER.html


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## GNU

bubomb said:


> There seems to be some confusion as to whether or not the ground will have standing. Even this good site below is unsure. If you look at the bottom of the page you can see question marks over the standing numbers???
> 
> I think it will have some kind of standing area.


i dont think so.
Im pretty sure that it will be a full seater.
I havent seen any standing areas during Bundesliga games this season


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## MoreOrLess

Checker said:


> yes its great to see that the bundesliga managed to continually break its attendances records over the last 7 years or so.
> But I think this year will be the last record breaking season.
> A thing that helps to get these attendances is certainly the fact that many new stadiums have been built over the last years, and also that the prices for a ticket are very low compared to, lets say the premier league.
> 
> I recently watched the premier league and I was a bit shocked that, at some games the stadium wasnt even half full.
> I also heard from the british media that the attendances are very low at the moment.
> I think that this really has to do with the high prices (a premier league ticket costs around 3 times as much as a bundesliga ticket!!)
> another reason is also that some clubs (chelsea,ManU) appear to be unbeatable for smaller clubs which takes a lot of the excitement connected with the game.
> 
> I think they should really take steps to lower the prices and maybe consider to bring back standing areas and go back to allow flags and other stuff in the stadiums again.also they shouldnt let the games start at ridiculous times just to achieve better viewing figures in asia.It kills the fanbases.
> 
> the premier league is a fantastic league and it really is a shame when the spectator figures drop.
> some officials have to realize that the stadium audience is the most important thing to the game.


I'd guess that in terms of total capacity usage the prem is actually much higher than the Bundesliga, really only Blackburn have a stadium thats often half empty. The main cause of the slight drop in attendances in the last couple of years is I'd guess down to the clubs who play in the league, most obviously that Leeds(40,000 seat stadium) have been religated and their place taken by the likes of Wigan(25,000 seat stadium). That said I agree they should bring back some kind of standing room offering lower prices and better capacities/atmosphere now that holiganism has been largely stamped out.


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## bubomb

That looks like seats that can also be used as a standing terrace -










similar to the type seen in Hannover -


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## bubomb

MoreOrLess said:


> I'd guess that in terms of total capacity usage the prem is actually much higher than the Bundesliga, really only Blackburn have a stadium thats often half empty. The main cause of the slight drop in attendances in the last couple of years is I'd guess down to the clubs who play in the league, most obviously that Leeds(40,000 seat stadium) have been religated and their place taken by the likes of Wigan(25,000 seat stadium). That said I agree they should bring back some kind of standing room offering lower prices and better capacities/atmosphere now that holiganism has been largely stamped out.


Simply not true. Sunderland is on average 14000 short of capacity, Aston Villa 8000 short, Man City and Middlesbrough both 6000 short, Everton 4000 short, Blackburn 10000 short, etc. 

You might argue that if Man United had a bigger stadium then this would help averages, but Bayern Munich could argue the same as well. Bayern could have easily have had 80000 sellouts for every game if the Allianz Arena was bigger.

Why can't English people never admit when somebody is better than them at something. It's a really annoying English habit that you constantly see on these forums. Germany has by far the biggest attendances, accept it, live with it and face the facts.


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## GNU

MoreOrLess said:


> I'd guess that in terms of total capacity usage the prem is actually much higher than the Bundesliga, really only Blackburn have a stadium thats often half empty.


The average attendancy is higher in the Bundesliga.

The overall spectator figures for the whole season have been slightly bigger in the premier league than for the Bundesliga.it differed only by a 3 or 4 thousand as afr as I know,whixh is basically no difference at all.
the reason for that is,that the premier league features 20 teams whereas the Bundesliga only features 18.
That means there is always one more game being played in the premiership on every gameday compared to the bundesliga.

but even with the overall viewing figures the Bundesliga will overtake the Premierleague this season.
Many big stadiums are now featured in the Bundesliga whereas last season there werent the likes of Frankfurt,Cologne or Nuremburg.
also many new stadiums have been introduced this year (allianz arena) which led to an increase in ticket sales.


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## bubomb

Allianz Arena should of been made bigger.What they should do is after the Word Cup, convert 5000 seats behind each goal into standing areas. You would then have 10000 standing instead of 5000 sitting behind each goal. You would still have 66000 for European games as the standing areas can be converted to seats, but for Bundesliga games you would have 76000.


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## Kampflamm

I think the city council made them have such a low capacity (because of the infrastructure around it). It'll have a capacity of 70,000 soon.


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## bubomb

Kampflamm said:


> I think the city council made them have such a low capacity (because of the infrastructure around it). It'll have a capacity of 70,000 soon.


Good news. They could then use my plan and have a capacity of 80000.


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## ManchesterISwonderful

bubomb said:


> You might argue that if Man United had a bigger stadium then this would help averages, but Bayern Munich could argue the same as well. Bayern could have easily have had 80000 sellouts for every game if the Allianz Arena was bigger.
> .



For the odd game perhaps. But they're behind Schalke and Dortmund in terms of average attendance. I think Bayern average around 50-55k. Well below their capacity. I reckon we'll average 76K next season. Anyway, if had my way, ticket prices would be a lot cheaper, which would allow younger people to afford the thus bigger stadiums and bigger crowds. Doubt it will happen though.


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## bravoman

Bundesliga has higher average attendance.

This is a very informative site:

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

and btw every bayern game in the allianz arena has been sold out so far...


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## Nils

@ManchesterISwonderful

WRONG!

All Bayern games are or will be totally sold out this season. So Bayern has and will have a n average attandance of 66.000 (100%) this seaon. Bayern ist No. 2 in Germany behind Dortmund(~75K - 93%) and in front of schalke (~61K - 100%)).

All Bayern Bundesliga games untill the end of the season are allready sold out.


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## Kampflamm

ManchesterISwonderful said:


> For the odd game perhaps. But they're behind Schalke and Dortmund in terms of average attendance. I think Bayern average around 50-55k. Well below their capacity. I reckon we'll average 76K next season. Anyway, if had my way, ticket prices would be a lot cheaper, which would allow younger people to afford the thus bigger stadiums and bigger crowds. Doubt it will happen though.


I think every single Bayern game has been a sellout this season.


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## ManchesterISwonderful

Top Ten:

1 BV 09 Borussia Dortmund 77.294	- 3,0%	83.000
2 FC Schalke 04 61.341 0,3%	61.524
3 FC Bayern München 53.294	- 3,9%	63.000
4 VfL Borussia Mönchengladbach	49.183 52,4%	53.466
5 Hamburger SV 48.825 1,1%	55.800
6 Hertha BSC Berlin 48.486 18,5%	74.500
7 VfB Stuttgart 1893 41.367	- 4,4%	49.471
8 SV Werder Bremen 39.853 6,3%	42.109
9 Hannoverscher SV 1896 35.989 53,6%	49.854
10 1. FC Kaiserslautern 35.706 - 7,5%	46.115


That's quite impressive.


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## Zizu

ManchesterISwonderful said:


> For the odd game perhaps. But they're behind Schalke and Dortmund in terms of average attendance. I think Bayern average around 50-55k. Well below their capacity. I reckon we'll average 76K next season. Anyway, if had my way, ticket prices would be a lot cheaper, which would allow younger people to afford the thus bigger stadiums and bigger crowds. Doubt it will happen though.


That's not true. Average attendance figure for Bayern is 66.000. Every single match was sold out. And this trend will continue because almost all return fixtures are already sold out.
Have a look at this
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwe...=Allianz%20Arena&stadt=M%FCnchen&news_id=1144


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## Nils

@ManchesterISwonderful

Your figures were the 2004/2005 figures!!!! You can see that easily when you take a look at the capacity (63K) which represents the capacity of the old olympic stadium.

2005/2006:
http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/aveger.htm


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## Zizu

ManchesterISwonderful said:


> Top Ten:
> 
> 1 BV 09 Borussia Dortmund 77.294	- 3,0%	83.000
> 2 FC Schalke 04 61.341 0,3%	61.524
> 3 FC Bayern München 53.294	- 3,9%	63.000
> 4 VfL Borussia Mönchengladbach	49.183 52,4%	53.466
> 5 Hamburger SV 48.825 1,1%	55.800
> 6 Hertha BSC Berlin 48.486 18,5%	74.500
> 7 VfB Stuttgart 1893 41.367	- 4,4%	49.471
> 8 SV Werder Bremen 39.853 6,3%	42.109
> 9 Hannoverscher SV 1896 35.989 53,6%	49.854
> 10 1. FC Kaiserslautern 35.706 - 7,5%	46.115
> 
> 
> That's quite impressive.


Those figures are old.
looks like season 2004/05.


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## bravoman

That's last season though


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## ManchesterISwonderful

This season (England)


Manchester United 67.852 5 0,2% 67.934


2 Newcastle United 52.155 6 0,6% 52.327

3 Liverpool 44.660 5 4,9% 44.917

4 Manchester City 42.590 6 -5,8% 43.647

5 Chelsea 41.797 6 -0,2% 42.146

6 Arsenal 38.058 6 0,2% 38.210

7 Everton 36.604 5 -0,6% 38.610

8 Tottenham Hotspur 35.983 6 0,2% 36.247

9 Sunderland 34.114 6 18,4% 39.085

10 Aston Villa 33.754 6 -9,6% 42.551


I reckon there's some scope from an increase in English attendances. United will have a bigger average attendance next year. So will Arsenal. Newcastle and Spurs both like United have 100% in the league, so there no reason why they couldn't fill bigger grounds. Fact remains though that it's cheaper for fans in Germany to goto games. I wonder what type of attendances English clubs could attract if we have a similarly priced tickets.


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## ManchesterISwonderful

Nils said:


> @ManchesterISwonderful
> 
> Your figures were the 2004/2005 figures!!!! You can see that easily when you take a look at the capacity (63K) which represents the capacity of the old olympic stadium.
> 
> 2005/2006:
> http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/aveger.htm



My mistake.

1 BV 09 Borussia Dortmund 74.863 9 -3,1% 81.264

2 FC Bayern München 66.000 8 23,8% 66.000

3 FC Schalke 04 61.306 8 -0,1% 61.524

4 Hamburger SV 50.378 10 3,2% 55.800

5 1. FC Köln 49.750 8 30,3% 50.000

6 VfL Borussia Mönchengladbach 45.906 9 -6,7% 53.466

7 SG Eintracht Frankfurt 44.075 8 85,5% 50.000

8 VfB Stuttgart 1893 41.778 9 1,0% 55.000

9 Hertha BSC Berlin 40.304 8 -16,9% 60.000 


Yes, the Scot is right. Bayern could easily fill 70k+.


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## ManchesterISwonderful

Zizu said:


> That's not true. Average attendance figure for Bayern is 66.000. Every single match was sold out. And this trend will continue because almost all return fixtures are already sold out.
> Have a look at this
> http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwe...=Allianz%20Arena&stadt=M%FCnchen&news_id=1144



Yes, you're right. My mistake.


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## MoreOrLess

bubomb said:


> Simply not true. Sunderland is on average 14000 short of capacity, Aston Villa 8000 short, Man City and Middlesbrough both 6000 short, Everton 4000 short, Blackburn 10000 short, etc.
> 
> You might argue that if Man United had a bigger stadium then this would help averages, but Bayern Munich could argue the same as well. Bayern could have easily have had 80000 sellouts for every game if the Allianz Arena was bigger.
> 
> Why can't English people never admit when somebody is better than them at something. It's a really annoying English habit that you constantly see on these forums. Germany has by far the biggest attendances, accept it, live with it and face the facts.


None of those are near "half empty" though, only blackburn is reasonabley close at around 2/3rds capacity on average which is why I mentioned it. If we look at the german stadiums then Herta Berlin(speical case I know) averages 32,000 below max capacity, Stuttgart 15,000, Nürnberg 18,000, Hannover 12,000 etc so perhaps the lesson is that Scots should not automatically disbelieve anything an Englishmans says.


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## Kampflamm

Hertha should have tried to get a halfway decent 45,000 seat stadium. The Olympiastadion is nice and all but it's a horrible place to watch a football game.


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## bubomb

MoreOrLess said:


> None of those are near "half empty" though, only blackburn is reasonabley close at around 2/3rds capacity on average which is why I mentioned it. If we look at the german stadiums then Herta Berlin(speical case I know) averages 32,000 below max capacity, Stuttgart 15,000, Nürnberg 18,000, Hannover 12,000 etc so perhaps the lesson is that Scots should not automatically disbelieve anything an Englishmans says.



It doesn't matter if a club is 4000 short of capacity on average, or 14000 short of capacity on average. In both cases a larger stadium would not increase averages as they cannot sell out the one the already have.

VfB Stuttgart have averaged 41778, Everton have averaged 36604. In both cases the stadium capacity is irrelevant as both teams cannot sell out 95% of their games. If both teams had 100000 stadiums, their averages would still be roughly the same as they cannot sell out their current stadiums.

Stuggarts ground as been under redevelopment all season, it's capacity at the beginning of the season was well below 55000, so its unfair to say they are 13000 short of capacity on average.


----------



## MoreOrLess

bubomb said:


> It doesn't matter if a club is 4000 short of capacity on average, or 14000 short of capacity on average. In both cases a larger stadium would not increase averages as they cannot sell out the one the already have.
> 
> VfB Stuttgart have averaged 41778, Everton have averaged 36604. In both cases the stadium capacity is irrelevant as both teams cannot sell out 95% of their games. If both teams had 100000 stadiums, their averages would still be roughly the same as they cannot sell out their current stadiums.
> 
> Stuggarts ground as been under redevelopment all season, it's capacity at the beginning of the season was well below 55000, so its unfair to say they are 13000 short of capacity on average.


Did I say anything about any of that? I merely stated that Prem grounds are on average fuller than Bundesliga grounds (in response to someones stating that they were often half empty) which is true. That said I would disagree with your point as a club with an average attendance of 29,000 in a 100,000 capacity stadium has likely sold as many tickets as they were able. A club with an average attendance of 29,000 in a 30,000 stadium on the other hand may well have been limated in the number of tickets they could sell for a bigger game.


----------



## bubomb

MoreOrLess said:


> Did I say anything about any of that? I merely stated that Prem grounds are on average fuller than Bundesliga grounds (in response to someones stating that they were often half empty) which is true. That said I would disagree with your point as a club with an average attendance of 29,000 in a 100,000 capacity stadium has likely sold as many tickets as they were able. A club with an average attendance of 29,000 in a 30,000 stadium on the other hand may well have been limated in the number of tickets they could sell for a bigger game.


I would agree for a 29000 average out of 30000, but not for a 36000 average out of 40000.


----------



## MoreOrLess

bubomb said:


> I would agree for a 29000 average out of 30000, but not for a 36000 average out of 40000.


I'd disagree as for big games theirs often a massive difference in demand, Barca for example averaged 73,000 last season yet their biggest attendance was 97,000. If your talking specifically about Everton this season then you may be correct however as they only sold 38,000 for the Merseyside derby.


----------



## bubomb

MoreOrLess said:


> I'd disagree as for big games theirs often a massive difference in demand, Barca for example averaged 73,000 last season yet their biggest attendance was 97,000. If your talking specifically about Everton this season then you may be correct however as they only sold 38,000 for the Merseyside derby.


but every team has a 'big game'. Stuttgart could have sold 90000 for the Bayern derby. However, these one or two 'big games' will make little difference to the overall average attendance.


----------



## MoreOrLess

bubomb said:


> but every team has a 'big game'. Stuttgart could have sold 90000 for the Bayern derby. However, these one or two 'big games' will make little difference to the overall average attendance.


Even one game out of 17-20 should have an impact on the average if its large enough, for most teams its more than 1 game a season aswell. As I said I don't see how that relates to anything thats has been dicussed in this thread though.


----------



## GNU

MoreOrLess said:


> Did I say anything about any of that? I merely stated that Prem grounds are on average fuller than Bundesliga grounds (in response to someones stating that they were often half empty) which is true.


But its not true.
the average attendancy per game is higher in the Bundesliga.

Bundesliga is somewhat around 40.000
Premierleague is around 33.000


----------



## GNU

Zizu said:


> That's not true. Average attendance figure for Bayern is 66.000. Every single match was sold out. And this trend will continue because almost all return fixtures are already sold out.
> Have a look at this
> http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwe...=Allianz%20Arena&stadt=M%FCnchen&news_id=1144


true.
the stadium is full for the whole season,and bayern will not have the slightest problem in repeating this success next season.
Rummenigge already stated that the enlargement to 70.000 is desperately needed.

On some occasions like for example against Juve the club could have easily sold 200.000 tickets!!

I think its really impressive that the allianz arena managed to attract 2.2 million visitors in less than a year.


----------



## GNU

bubomb said:


> Allianz Arena should of been made bigger.What they should do is after the Word Cup, convert 5000 seats behind each goal into standing areas. You would then have 10000 standing instead of 5000 sitting behind each goal. You would still have 66000 for European games as the standing areas can be converted to seats, but for Bundesliga games you would have 76000.


couldnt aggree more.
it was a mistake to limit the capacity to 66.000.
Even 70.000 will not be enough.
they should have built the stadium with a capacity of around 80 to 90k.
Bayern wouldnt have a problem with filling such a stadium.

just look at dortmund.They still get around 80k even though the club is really not doing well, and despite the fact that there are many other successfull clubs located in the same area.


----------



## Kampflamm

At some point the novelty will wear off though. Bayern had its "Juve moments" as well, against teams like Kiev if I remember correctly.

And you can't compare the dedication of Ruhrgebiet fans to the Bayern clients. Schalke managed to sell out pretty much every Intertoto-Cup match.


----------



## GNU

Kampflamm said:


> And you can't compare the dedication of Ruhrgebiet fans to the Bayern clients. Schalke managed to sell out pretty much every Intertoto-Cup match.


Maybe. but Schalke didnt managed to sell out every intertoto cup game when they were still playing in the old Parkstadion.
It just comes with it, that the club gets higher attendances when you move to a new ground.


----------



## bubomb

MoreOrLess said:


> Even one game out of 17-20 should have an impact on the average if its large enough, for most teams its more than 1 game a season aswell. As I said I don't see how that relates to anything thats has been dicussed in this thread though.



Not necessarily. Let's say Everton had a 50000 stadium. The only games that this would help them in terms of ticket demand would be games against Liverpool and Man United. Lets say they got 46000 for both these games. This is an increase of 6000 for each of these games compared to their current capacity (40000). So the average increase would be 12000 divided by 19 (number of home games), which is 632. A very small increase. In real life it would be much less as Everton couldn't sell out their present ground for the last Liverpool game.

So in my theoretical scenario, the average attendances of Everton would go from 36000 in their present stadium to 36632 in their bigger 50000 stadium. Hardly worth bothering about.


----------



## MoreOrLess

bubomb said:


> Not necessarily. Let's say Everton had a 50000 stadium. The only games that this would help them in terms of ticket demand would be games against Liverpool and Man United. Lets say they got 46000 for both these games. This is an increase of 6000 for each of these games compared to their current capacity (40000). So the average increase would be 12000 divided by 19 (number of home games), which is 632. A very small increase. In real life it would be much less as Everton couldn't sell out their present ground for the last Liverpool game.
> 
> So in my theoretical scenario, the average attendances of Everton would go from 36000 in their present stadium to 36632 in their bigger 50000 stadium. Hardly worth bothering about.


Its true in Evertons case so far this season(although they've yet to play Man Utd at home) but often clubs can have attendances tens of of thousands over average and for most clubs its not just one game per year but many that would outsell the average. Also you fail to take into account the effect that season tickets will have, as a clubs stadiums capacity increases its likely the number of season tickets on offer will also increase which should increase the number of people attending minor fixtures they normally wouldnt if forced to buy on a fixture by fixtire basis.


----------



## Iain1974

In addition, many places count ticket sales rather than true attendance.

The USA counts ticket sales so you may see a 'sold out' game with 10,000 empty seats.


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## bubomb

MoreOrLess said:


> Its true in Evertons case so far this season(although they've yet to play Man Utd at home) but often clubs can have attendances tens of of thousands over average and for most clubs its not just one game per year but many that would outsell the average. Also you fail to take into account the effect that season tickets will have, as a clubs stadiums capacity increases its likely the number of season tickets on offer will also increase which should increase the number of people attending minor fixtures they normally wouldnt if forced to buy on a fixture by fixtire basis.


but the same applies to German clubs. Schalke v Dortmund could easily be a 130000 sell out. So there is no point in comparing potential attendances in theoretical stadiums. All that counts is present day attendances, and Germany thrashes everybody else when it comes to average attendances.


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## fman80939

Kampflamm said:


> At some point the novelty will wear off though. Bayern had its "Juve moments" as well, against teams like Kiev if I remember correctly.
> 
> And you can't compare the dedication of Ruhrgebiet fans to the Bayern clients. Schalke managed to sell out pretty much every Intertoto-Cup match.


This "dedication" is mostly a myth, care to evaluate Schalke's attendance figures at their old ground ?
We'll most probably see the novelty factor wear off at Schalke before the same thing happens in Munich.... as long as they don't do a "Leeds".


----------



## GNU

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/0,1518,393810,00.html

hno:


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## bubomb

I think it's unfair to criticise Berlin for having an athletics track, as it is not a football only stadium, it is a multi-purpose stadium that will also be used for athletics. If I didn't have an athletics track then athletics fans would moan that it was useless for athletics. If it was a football only stadium then yes, criticisms would be justified. Criticising the Berlin stadium for having an athletics track would be like criticising the new Beijing stadium for having an athletics track!!


The question should be 'should it have been picked for the World Cup'?

I think Yes, as it really is monument of a stadium, a true beauty and a few games where the fans won't be close to the action is no big deal.

I've just booked my flights to Hamburg - I can't wait. Proper beer in one of the best countries in the world. Look out - here I come.


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## cianobuckley

munich is the most breathtaking and dortmund has the most character. im not a fan of nuremberg at all . they should be use borussia mochengladbachs stadium instead.


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## Kampflamm

Some more pics of Kaiserslautern



































]


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## Kampflamm

And more...


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## Kampflamm




----------



## GNU

^^ Im not sure about those video screens being mounted on ground level in the corners?

I dont think its very practical. Sure itll look good when a player takes a corner,but apart from that it would have been better to mount them to the roof I guess


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## Marco_

Alliaz Arena sucks! Well, inside it's very nice, but I don't like the architecture from the outside. I don't get the feeling it's a footballstadium everytime I see it on picture. 
Schalke Arena and AOL Arena are beautiful. I like them.

I heard something about a stadium that's build inside a stadium... Which one is that?


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## MoreOrLess

Marco_ said:


> Alliaz Arena sucks! Well, inside it's very nice, but I don't like the architecture from the outside. I don't get the feeling it's a footballstadium everytime I see it on picture.
> Schalke Arena and AOL Arena are beautiful. I like them.
> 
> I heard something about a stadium that's build inside a stadium... Which one is that?


Leipzig


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## bubomb

Leipzig is fantastic -


Old stadium -



















































New stadium -


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## vivayo

what was the capacity before, seem kind of big, maybe in the 70's or even 80's...

by the way it looks great, i like the concept, reminds me of Chicago's Soldier Field, not that look the same, just because the concept of building a new stadium within the old one


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## vivayo

what's Kaiserslautern capacity???


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## bubomb

The previous stadium was impressive enough. Over 100,000 bench seats, laid out in a natural bowl, surrounding an athletics track, it was one of the biggest stadiums in East Germany. It was used for show piece events including East German football matches, athletics meetings and the bi-annual East German games. However, after the fall of communism in 1989, the stadium started falling into disrepair. At the time, VFB Leipzig were flying high in the East German leagues, and had been runners up to Ajax in the 1987 UEFA Cup final, and were invited to take part in the first combined Bundesliga in 1993/94. 

However, as with most of the other great East German teams like Dynamo Dresden and FC Magdeburg, they found it difficult to adjust to life in the new top division. A slow downward spiral was halted in 2004 when the club was declared bankrupt with debts of over US$5m. A new club rose from the ashes in the form of Lokomotiv Leipzig, playing their games at Bruno Plache Stadion starting in the 11th division of the German football pyramid. 

The stadium construction began in late 2000 on the site of the old stadium, and was completed in March 2004. On the 17th November 2004, the German team played their first international in Leipzig for over 15 years when they took on Cameroon. The new stadium is certainly unique in terms of traditional German stadiums. It is built on the same lines as the Estadio Drago in Porto, and has a passing resemblance to the Telstra Stadium in Sydney, although on a smaller scale. The stadium is made up of two tiers, with the lower tier wrapping completely around the pitch. The upper tiers extend from corner to corner in a big arch, with the seating levels rising to the centre of the stadium. Entry to the stadium is quite unique as well. The turnstiles are located at the bottom of the outside bowl. Spectators then climb the steep steps to a pathway that formed the lip of the original stadium. 

From there a series of drawbridge-like walkways run downwards onto the central concourse. The concourse runs at the top of the lower tier, and runs around the stadium, meaning fans using the facilities can look down into the stadium. The seats themselves are set about 8 feet above the pitch allowing excellent views of the action from behind the goals. Leg room is very generous, especially when compared to some of the new build stadiums in Britain. Two screens hang down from the roof behind the goals allowing all the fans to follow the action as well.


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## Kampflamm

I went to the Veltins Arena last night to watch a boring 0-0 draw between Schalke and Borussia Dortmund. Here are some pics though.














































Dortmund fans:










Some other pics of the game


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## GNU

New Pics:



































































*gameday:* 1.FC Kaiserslautern - Schalke 04 (poorly attended)


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## EllasOle

Most of these stadiums are impressive, but a country like Germany shouldn't be hosting a WC with 3 stadiums with tracks. Berlin is fine because it is a historic stadium and is the biggest stadium that will be used with 75,000 seats. 

If it were up to me, I would replace Stuttgart with this.

http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/GER/LTU-Arena.html

and the one in Nuremburg with this.

http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/GER/Borussia-Park.html

Those 2 stadiums are fantastic and rival some of the better stadiums used in the bid. It's too bad they didn't go with those 2 stadiums instead.


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## Kampflamm

I agree with you. THe problem is that both LTU Arena and Borussia Park are located within like 40kms of each other. The entire region already has 3 stadiums with Cologne, Gelsenkirchen and Dortmund, so a couple of additional stadiums would be a bit unfair to the rest of the country.


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## Loranga

Well, I always have the opinion that the EUR240M that was spent to renovate the Berlin Olympic Stadium should have been used to build a completely new football stadium in Berlin. The Allianz Arena costed EUR320M, so....


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## GASpedal

I don't agree.

Football currently isn't that big in Berlin. With Hertha BSC attracting many but not too many fans I hardly see any reason why they'd need a stadium bigger than 40k or 50k on their own.

Second possibility for a complete new structure would have been a "Stade de France" or "Wembley" -thing which we don't need in Germany, since the national team fortunately travels to the fans - not the other way round.

Main reason is:
Berlin is probably the only city in Germany which really deserves a big athletic stadium. Furthermore the stadium needed to get renovated... so what should you do? Destroy it?
I think it's a great stadium now. 240M for renovating a 70 years old stadium isn't that much I guess...


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## Kampflamm

It is still a pretty impressive stadium. The only thing I hate about the new roof are those beams which hold it up. Couldn't they have found a way to build a roof without the support beams?


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## The Hunted

Kampflamm said:


> It is still a pretty impressive stadium. The only thing I hate about the new roof are those beams which hold it up. Couldn't they have found a way to build a roof without the support beams?


The roof supports are the only part of the olympic stadium I dislike. I thought the reason they were there was a money issue? If more money had been spent no they wouldn't be there, but the cost would have beeen very high.


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## yyyves

No, money wasnt a reason, they had to build the roof that it wouldnt affect the "1936's look" from the outside. Therefore unfortunately there was no chance of avoiding these pillars...


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## Loranga

GASpedal said:


> I don't agree.
> 
> Football currently isn't that big in Berlin. With Hertha BSC attracting many but not too many fans I hardly see any reason why they'd need a stadium bigger than 40k or 50k on their own.
> 
> Second possibility for a complete new structure would have been a "Stade de France" or "Wembley" -thing which we don't need in Germany, since the national team fortunately travels to the fans - not the other way round.
> 
> Main reason is:
> Berlin is probably the only city in Germany which really deserves a big athletic stadium. Furthermore the stadium needed to get renovated... so what should you do? Destroy it?
> I think it's a great stadium now. 240M for renovating a 70 years old stadium isn't that much I guess...



Why hold the final in Berlin then? Politically impossible?

What kind of renovations did it need? 240M is quite a lot of money, Allianz arena only costed 80M more. Why not just do the most basic renovations to keep it alive and build a new stadium somewhere else?


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## bubomb

It is daft to criticise Berlin for having an athletics track. It is not a football only stadium, so there is no problem with it having an athletics track. The roof supports were needed as it was the only way to do it. A total cantilever design was out of the question as this would have compromised the outer design of the stadium. The only way to have done it would be the use of air pressure in an enclosed stadium, but this would of involved enclosing the 'marathon gate', which was also unacceptable.


----------



## GASpedal

Loranga said:


> Why hold the final in Berlin then? Politically impossible?


Certainly because Berlin is the capital of the WC's host-country.
But also because of the huge capacity. Why host the most important match of the tournament in a smaller stadium? Atmosphere will still be very good. I think it's a perfect setting for the final. German Cup Finals are also hold there since the reunion and nobody ever complained.



Loranga said:


> What kind of renovations did it need? 240M is quite a lot of money, Allianz arena only costed 80M more. Why not just do the most basic renovations to keep it alive and build a new stadium somewhere else?


As far as I know, the Berlin stadium was near to a total collapse if they hadn't done serious renovations. I'm not an architect, but I guess the most expensive parts of a stadium are the roof (which is completely new), the concrete structure itself (which needed to be stabilized, renewed etc.) and the interior fittings (which look very impressive and high-class...).
Changing some seats only, just won't do it...

Maybe you get a better impression by looking at these pictures:

Reconstruction 2002
Reconstruction 2003

As I said, Berlin certainly has a need of a high-class athletics stadium. And that's what they got now.


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## Kampflamm

They lowered the pitch, added new seats, a roof and gave the stadium just a general make-over. It's still pretty expensive though.


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## bubomb

Kampflamm said:


> They lowered the pitch, added new seats, a roof and gave the stadium just a general make-over. It's still pretty expensive though.


They done a lot more than that. It was a massive reconstruction project.


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## The Hunted

GASpedal said:


> I'm not an architect, but I guess the most expensive parts of a stadium are the roof (which is completely new),



The roof cost 26 million euros.


----------



## MoreOrLess

I can certainly see both sides of the arguement, its a beautiful(which the renovation only adds to IMHO) historically important stadium in the captial that was part of both the east and the west but its also not ideal for football and I doubt it will be full very often after the WC. I'd guess the alternative would have been to build a 75-80,000 seat Allianz Arena and a new 40-50,000 seat football only stadium for Hertha Berlin.


----------



## bubomb

MoreOrLess said:


> I can certainly see both sides of the arguement, its a beautiful(which the renovation only adds to IMHO) historically important stadium in the captial that was part of both the east and the west but its also not ideal for football and I doubt it will be full very often after the WC. I'd guess the alternative would have been to build a 75-80,000 seat Allianz Arena and a new 40-50,000 seat football only stadium for Hertha Berlin.


It was full last week. I do agree 74000 is a bit big for Hertha Berlin, but I think they would be looking at a 60000 football stadium (50000 for internationals/UEFA, 60000 for Bundesliga games). Whether or not they build one doesn't matter, as the Berlin Olympic Stadium had to be rebuilt, it is more than a stadium, it is a monument.

http://dfb.de/bliga/spiel.php?art=s...bbl1m_3153&spieltag=20&saison=05&saisonl=2005


----------



## MoreOrLess

Thats was for Bayern's visit though, the biggest attendance before that was 60,000 with an average of 40,000 according to euro football stats plus I assume that German internationals will continue moving around the country after the world cup aswell. I spose its hard to say for sure if the massive demand AA tickets this season is perminant or merely down to the temporary thrill of a new stadium but it tends to suggest to me that an 80,000+ capacity would have been sustainable.

I don't think you can really criticize the Berlin Olympic Stadium that much though if you consider the Rose Bowl is the only football configured stadium to host the WC final in the last 16 years.


----------



## muc

Please keep things in perspective.

Of course a purpose built stadium is preferrable but it's not like there cannot be a great athmosphere in a statium with an athletics track.

I have been to many games in the Wilparkstadium of Karlsruhe. Back in the mid 90's when the KSC played Bundesliga and UEFA cup. A 40k stadium with athletics track and no roof over the curves. Still the athmosphere was fantastic when that place was sold out. And the view was still ok, even from the corners. We just screamed Valencia out of the stadium (7:0 hehe, and they were Spain's no. 1 back then).

So there is just no reason not to play in Berlin, Germany's capital, largest city and one of the largest stadiums as well. Or in Stuttgart and Nürnberg, whose stadia - while not being the prettiest - are all albsolutely suitable. And a simple look on the map should make it clear to eveyone why these cities were selected instead of Düsseldorf or Mönchengladbach.

It may be hard to accept in an architecture forum, but architecture was not the only criterium when the venues were selected, and probably not even one of top priority.


----------



## bubomb

muc said:


> Please keep things in perspective.
> 
> Of course a purpose built stadium is preferrable but it's not like there cannot be a great athmosphere in a statium with an athletics track.
> 
> I have been to many games in the Wilparkstadium of Karlsruhe. Back in the mid 90's when the KSC played Bundesliga and UEFA cup. A 40k stadium with athletics track and no roof over the curves. Still the athmosphere was fantastic when that place was sold out. And the view was still ok, even from the corners. We just screamed Valencia out of the stadium (7:0 hehe, and they were Spain's no. 1 back then).
> 
> So there is just no reason not to play in Berlin, Germany's capital, largest city and one of the largest stadiums as well. Or in Stuttgart and Nürnberg, whose stadia - while not being the prettiest - are all albsolutely suitable. And a simple look on the map should make it clear to eveyone why these cities were selected instead of Düsseldorf or Mönchengladbach.
> 
> It may be hard to accept in an architecture forum, but architecture was not the only criterium when the venues were selected, and probably not even one of top priority.


It would of been mad not to use the Olympic Stadium in Berlin for WC 2006. Same goes for Nuremberg as it is such a nice city. Nurembergs stadium is actually better than Stuttgarts stadium.


----------



## enjoi

definitely Munich.


----------



## Kampflamm

Looks pretty damn good for a parking garage (Berlin)



















I gotta say that after looking at some pics of Berlin I changed my mind about the stadium. It's a pretty nice fusion between old and new. It's certainly more impressive than your average run-of-the-mill football stadium. It's an architectural gem.


----------



## Kampflamm

The Hunted said:


> The roof supports are the only part of the olympic stadium I dislike. I thought the reason they were there was a money issue? If more money had been spent no they wouldn't be there, but the cost would have beeen very high.


I just bought a book about the wc stadia. As Yves mentioned, one of the regulations put forth by the Denkmalschutz (something like a heritage foundation), was that from the outside the original "Greek arena look" was supposed to be kept, hence a roof similar to the ones in places like Stuttgart or Vienna (Ernst-Happel-Stadion) was out of the question. Apparently the architect's also pretty pissed off about the blue running track because during the building process he had to go to great lenghts to preserve the 1930s look and then they added a blue running track later on.

I guess the most expensive part was the reconstruction of the lower bowl. If I read things correctly, the entire lower bowl was more or less reconstructed because it was in such a horrendous condition.



















So in a sense half of the stadium was built from scratch.


----------



## ManchesterISwonderful

Berlin's Olympic Stadium, though not perfect for football, looks bloody amazing. Now, it's not the most modern, but that's not important as you can just feel the history behind it. Looks like we've gone in a time machine and seen what the place looked like in 30's, just after being completed. Very strange.

I love it.


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## bubomb

There's loads of underground stuff that was also added in the Berlin reconstruction (media centre, warm up tracks/facilities, car parks etc) -


----------



## NorthPole

sam88 said:


> ...
> 2. Place would be Berlin
> The Stadium is over 70 Years old and still amzing


When I saw first pictures I immediately thought "strange, but it looks like a fascisc/nazi architecture". Now I know why :lol:
Bird-eye and inside pictures of this stadium are more neutral, but the first with "roman-like" pillars/columns and "Colosseum-like" shape, hmmm... :sly:


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## MoreOrLess

Purely on looks I'd personally take Berlin ahead of the AA.


----------



## 2005

Great to see that there will plaenty of seats that will have restricted veiws for the WC final!!


----------



## bubomb

2005 said:


> Great to see that there will plaenty of seats that will have restricted veiws for the WC final!!



The roof supports were needed as it was the only way to do it. A total cantilever design was out of the question as this would have compromised the outer design of the stadium. The only way to have done it would be the use of air pressure in an enclosed stadium, but this would of involved enclosing the 'marathon gate'. This was looked into, but enclosing the 'marathon gate' was also deemed unacceptable as again this was too much of a change from the original design.

For me, the roof supports are the only disappointment in an almost perfect multi-purpose stadium.

Obviously it is not an ideal football stadium, but it is not supposed to be a football only stadium. Saying the Berlin Olympic Stadium is not ideal for football is like saying the Bernabeu is poor for athletics!!


----------



## JimB

bubomb said:


> Saying the Berlin Olympic Stadium is not ideal for football is like saying the Bernabeu is poor for athletics!!


Not at all.

Because the Bernebau has never been used for athletics and will never be used for athletics. By contrast, the Berlin Olympic stadium is used for football and will continue to be used for football.

So saying that the Olympic stadium is not ideal for football is a valid comment. Saying that the Bernebau is poor for athletics is not valid.


----------



## bubomb

JimB said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Because the Bernebau has never been used for athletics and will never be used for athletics. By contrast, the Berlin Olympic stadium is used for football and will continue to be used for football.
> 
> So saying that the Olympic stadium is not ideal for football is a valid comment. Saying that the Bernebau is poor for athletics is not valid.


But the Bernabau cannot be used for athletics at all, which can be argued is even worse. Better to have a stadium that can do something reasonably than not at all.

The Berlin stadium was designed from day one to be a multi purpose stadium, and should be judged as one. It should not be judged as a football stadium as it is not a football stadium.


----------



## JimB

bubomb said:


> But the Bernabau cannot be used for athletics at all, which can be argued is even worse. Better to have a stadium that can do something reasonably than not at all.


And better to have a stadium that can do something excellently than reasonably.



> The Berlin stadium was designed from day one to be a multi purpose stadium, and should be judged as one. It should not be judged as a football stadium as it is not a football stadium.


I agree. But it is still, nevertheless, valid and reasonable to say that the Berlin Olympic stadium is not ideal for football. Because it isn't. That doesn't necessarily have to be interpreted as a criticism of the stadium. It is merely a recognition of the fact that the needs of athletics and football cannot be perfectly accomodated in one stadium.


----------



## bubomb

JimB said:


> And better to have a stadium that can do something excellently than reasonably.


and Berlin does do something excellently - athletics (with the added bonus of doing football reasonably).


----------



## JimB

bubomb said:


> and Berlin does do something excellently - athletics (with the added bonus of doing football reasonably).


Agreed.

And I'm glad to see that you've also conceded that the Olympic stadium is not ideal football. Only "reasonable"!


----------



## Kampflamm

Obviously it's not ideal but then again no football with an athletics track is. It has a certain wow-factor though.


----------



## kingdomca

The world cup does seem to have a strange idea about being played in many excellent new stadiums but the final itself played in a poor, sometimes old athletics venue in the capital city.

I dont think FIFA mind as long as there are plenty of their sponsor´s seats on the side where the track doesnt matter much and there probably is a desire to stage the final in the capital.

Its an ok setting for a world cup final, and indeed the german cup final.

Its far worse to have this sort of thing week in week out for average league games especially when it isnt full, so Hertha Berlin should really look to move.


----------



## bubomb

JimB said:


> Agreed.
> 
> And I'm glad to see that you've also conceded that the Olympic stadium is not ideal football. Only "reasonable"!



Of course. Only a madman would say it is 'ideal' for football. I have heard it is one of the better athletics stadiums to watch football in.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

bubomb said:


> and Berlin does do something excellently - athletics (with the added bonus of doing football reasonably).


but who would want the WORLD CUP final to be hosted "reasonably". its the pinacle of football it should be done excellently!


----------



## bubomb

Its AlL gUUd said:


> but who would want the WORLD CUP final to be hosted "reasonably". its the pinacle of football it should be done excellently!



In an ideal world yes, but we don't live in an ideal world. Berlin will be fine. 74000 fans enjoying a final in a superb stadium, it will be fine. 99.99% of people will be watching it on tv anyway.


----------



## bubomb

Good video of the AWD arena (Hannover) here -

rtsp://ras01.wdr.de/online/ard_sport/2006/fussball/wm2006/awd_arena_hannover_g.rm


----------



## bubomb

Here are the plans to turn Stuttgart into a football only stadium after the World Cup -


----------



## bubomb

*BayArena (Bayer 04 Leverkusen), Germany*

Thanks to Patrick

Stadiums and Arenas in Germany with its own thread:

BERIN | O2 World | 15,500 | Completed
DORTMUND | Westfalenstadion | 80,552 | Completed
GELSENKIRCHEN | Arena AufSchalke | 61,673 | Completed
MÜNCHEN | Allianz-Arena | 69,901 | Completed

BREMEN | Weserstadion | 43,000 | Under construction

STUTTGART | Neckarstadion | 60,000 | Proposed

Stadiums and Arenas in this thread:

BIELEFELD | Almstadion | 28,008 | Completed | Latest photos
COTTBUS | Stadion der Freundschaft | 22,528 | Completed | Some photos
MÜNCHEN | Olympiastadion | 69,250 | Completed | Some photos
OBERSTDORF | Schattenbergstadion and Heidi-Klopfer-Schanze (Ski-Jumping) | 27,000 and 40,000 | Completed | Some photos
SINSHEIM | Rhein-Neckar-Arena | 30,000 | Completed | Some photos here and at nearly every other page of this thread.

AACHEN | Neuer Tivoli | 32,000 | Under construction | Renderings | Latest photos
AUGSBURG | Impuls-Arena | 30,119 | Under construction | Renderings | Latest photos
BERLIN | Stadion an der Alten Försterei | 23,000 | Under construction | Renderings
DRESDEN | Rudolf-Harbig-Stadion | Under construction | Renderings | Latest photos
FRANKFURT | Stadion am Bornheimer Hang | 10,300 | Under construction | Latest photos
HAMBURG | Millerntor-Stadion | 27,000 | Under construction | Renderings | Latest photos
LEVERKUSEN | Bay-Arena | 30,000 | Under construction | Renderings | Latest photos

FRANKFURT | Rhein-Main-Arena | 12,500 | Proposed | Renderings
OFFENBACH | Stadion am Bieberer Berg | 29,300 | Proposed | Renderings

GELSENKIRCHEN | Parkstadion | 62,004 | Demolished | Latest photos

Stadium-Overview 1. Fußball-Bundesliga 2008/09
Stadium-Overview 2. Fußball-Bundesliga 2008/09 (new teams only)
Stadium-Overview 2. Fußball-Bundesliga 2007/08
Stadium-Overview 3. Fußball-Liga 2008/09
Stadium-Overview Fußball-Regionalliga 2008/09 (Nord, Süd and West)
Stadium-Overview Fußball-Oberliga 2008/09 (prominent teams only)


FRANKFURT | Rhein-Main-Arena | 12,500 | Proposed | Renderings
JENA | Ernst-Abbe-Sportfeld | 20,643 | Proposed | Renderings
OFFENBACH | Stadion am Bieberer Berg | 29,300 | Proposed | Renderings
------------------------------------------------------











Renderings for the three final proposals of Alemannia Aachens new stadium. 
Itll have a cap of 32.000

Option 1

Option 2

Option 3



-----------------------------------------------------
Home of Bayer 04 Leverkusen. It is one of my favourite little grounds, but may soon be going up to 30000. Currently holds 22500. It also has a drive-thru McDonalds!!


Current stadium -





















































































































































































































































Upgraded stadium -


----------



## JimB

Very average stadium, to be honest. The sides and one end are harmless but bland.

And the other end which is just a mass of corporate boxes stacked up over a few rows of seats is just horrible. If they're going to redevelop, then that end is where they should start.


----------



## Kampflamm

That end has just been redeveloped.


----------



## JimB

Kampflamm said:


> That end has just been redeveloped.


What do you mean?

Do these pictures show what that end used to look like before redevelopment?

Or were these pictures taken after redevelopment?

I very much hope that it isn't the latter.


----------



## Kampflamm

Those luxury boxes were added a couple of years ago.










If I remember correctly, in the old days the stands went up to the first row of luxury boxes.

Look at the lower left picture on that postcard:


----------



## GNU

Bayarena is great.

the arena will definitely be upgraded. Its just a question of time.
Bayer Leverkusen is one of europe's top clubs and a 22k stadium is just way too small for them.
Leverkusen is situated quite next to Cologne which has 1 million inhabitants.
With the metro population they would easily be able to fill a 60k stadium on a weekly basis.


----------



## Kampflamm

The problem is that Bayer has no fanbase. As you mentioned Cologne is nearby and any self-respecting human being is a fan of any of area's teams except for Bayer.

I don't have the exact #s but they haven't even sold out their tiny park for every game this season.


----------



## Kampflamm

> I also just noticed how boring Allianz Arena is on the inside. just a generic bland bowl with bland grey seats, it's really not that good.


Well, since the Coliseum all stadiums have more or less been "generic bland blows". The Allianz Arena isn't that generic though. If you look at the 3rd tier you'll notice a bit of a swoop.

And would you rather have those colored seats that have been put into some Portguese stadiums to hide low attendance figures?


----------



## matherto

bubomb said:


> Eh??


ah sorry, I meant the AWD-Arena, i always get them two mixed up, and just cause the Bayern fans are colourful doesn't detract from the fact it is just very boring

Kampflamm, I certainly wouldn't mind that, at least it would look a bit more exciting, I don't know why everyone raves on about that stadium, it's not that good


----------



## bravoman

matherto said:


> I don't know why everyone raves on about that stadium, it's not that good


Does that mean it is one of the decent ones or one of the extremely poor ones?


----------



## bubomb

bravoman said:


> Does that mean it is one of the decent ones or one of the extremly poor ones?


It must be one of the "extremely poor" ones. Possibly the worst stadium in the Milky Way. Even worse than Shawfield Stadium -


----------



## eddyk

MoreOrLess said:


> Purely on looks I'd personally take Berlin ahead of the AA.


I agree with this.

I've always loved the Berlin Olympic Stadium.

I have been debating with myself as to which I think is my faver Germany stadium.

I think the AA and Berlin Olympic Stadium are tied for first place in my mind.


----------



## 2zanzibar

matherto said:


> Only just noticed how shallow the AOL-Arenas' lower tier is, it's almost as bad as Emirates Stadiums'.
> 
> I also just noticed how boring Allianz Arena is on the inside. just a generic bland bowl with bland grey seats, it's really not that good.
> 
> Is Stuttgart finished by the way? any pictures of that last remaining stand, Stadionwelt doesn't have any new ones


I know this isn't the Arsenal thread, but.....


















Kind of worryingly similar!

anyway, back to the thread,

I lurve the steep monster stand at Kaiserslautern! and this stadium in general.
Nuremburg and Stuttgart are dog's dinners
The rest are VERY impressive, and very photogenic, except Dortmund, which all though not pretty like Berlin or AA, is gonna be an awesome venue!
For me though, and after reading the info on this thread, Leipzig is my fav, just for its audacious concept, fantastic!


----------



## Kampflamm

matherto said:


> ah sorry, I meant the AWD-Arena, i always get them two mixed up


Part of the AWD-Arena was built a fairly long time ago (west stand...or whatever it might be called in English). As you can see in these pics, the new stand is much steeper than the old one.

Old stand is the one with the AWD-Arena writing on the seats














































New stand has red seats





































I guess the areas in between couldn't be that steep because it would look somewhat akward.


----------



## bubomb

A lot depends on the photo. These ones show the gradient much more clearly -






































Nice photo -


----------



## bubomb

The old West Stand was heavily refurbished, although the basic structure is still the same.


----------



## Kampflamm

It is important to remember though that the reason why they didn't knock it down as well was that it wasn't all that old.


----------



## bubomb

I've found some nice new pics -


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

^^ Bubomb calm down with the amount of pictures you post the server is slow anyway.


----------



## Kampflamm

Frankfurt's stadium with the roof closed


----------



## bubomb

Its AlL gUUd said:


> ^^ Bubomb calm down with the amount of pictures you post the server is slow anyway.



I didn't know there was a picture limit!! Until I hear otherwise, you will have to suck my fat one!


----------



## Durbsboi

matherto said:


> I also just noticed how boring Allianz Arena is on the inside. just a generic bland bowl with bland grey seats, it's really not that good.


Wat were u expecting a Triangle? or floating stands? Its a freeken arena! & its marvellous!


----------



## Durbsboi

I must say Allianz is the best, but I quite like the frankfurt stadium, with the big screens in the middel & Berlin is amazing!


----------



## Kampflamm

The architects actually chose grey seats so that as you enter the stadium, the pitch stands out and you're immediately focused on it (at least something like that was their explanation). I don't really care about the color of the seats in a stadium, as long as you don't have this ridiculous Lego scheme that can be seen in some Portuguese stadiums and in Düsseldorf.


----------



## GNU

well the seats in the stadium in dortmund for example look shit.

There are still plenty of seats installed which date back to the 70s


----------



## Kampflamm

Didn't Dortmund have to install new seats before the world cup?


----------



## GNU

talking of new seats:

there are now new seats being installed in the stadium in Kaiserslautern. 










view from the city


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

^^Certain roofs make this type of thing worse such as that of the allianz but others reduce this effect such as that at st James park(newcastle) or Munichs olympic stadium or the new wembley


----------



## IcyUrmel

The postet picture is more result of poor photographing than due to poor architecture. In fact, the roof of the Allianz Arena allows maybe 50 % of the light to pass. If you watch matches on television or live in the stadium, you will not get the idea that something might not be perfect in this context.

What I personally wonder:

Why do people always post such a mass of pictures, if they only have few to prove their statement?

This one's crap:









this too:









I would say:
*Less is more*, more or less...


----------



## GNU

Ok for everybody who is interested heres a link where you can watch the german Sportschau. Its Germanys main weekly sport show in television.

The clip itself is a summ up of the Bundesliga league game between Schalke 04 and Leverkusen in the Veltins Arena
Result: 7:4

enjoy:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3021515901437513298&q=Sportschau&pl=true


----------



## HelloMoto163

sorry..but imo the allianz arena looks a bit boring and cheap


----------



## The_Hoops

The Allianz can let in lots of light due to moving blinds -


----------



## 2zanzibar

This one also is another great pic! In terms of photography, lets face it, the AA is one of the most photogenic


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

^^I think the AA is very clever but it so boring looking, looks like a pillow or a toilet seat


----------



## eddyk

I think it's class.

My main gripe with it is that you can't tell it's a stadium.

Still amazing though.


----------



## Durbsboi

I think it looks like a big cushion, you feel like running & jumping on it!


----------



## matherto

Rexfan2 said:


> Munich is the best. Berlin is outdated


hmmm, I doubt that Berlin is outdated, It's actually incredibly modern considering it was built in 1934(?). It has excellent facilities, and is among the best looking stadiums in the world.

Munich isn't the best. It has a crap pitch and looks very, very boring on the inside. No doubting it's a great stadium, but it's certainly not the best.


----------



## Kampflamm

Simple but good


----------



## Durbsboi

^^ I like this ground, simply because Liverpool won the treble here UEFA CUP


----------



## GNU

Kampflamm said:


> Simple but good



Its ok allright.

But those pillars in the corners dont look really good.


----------



## GNU

another nice pic of allianz arena


----------



## SkyLerm

Stuttgart :drool:


----------



## GNU

Pics from the game between 1.FC Kaiserslautern and 1.FC Koeln (Cologne)


----------



## antigr12

they should build another stand instead of this tiny one , that could raise the capacity to 55-60000 .


----------



## Kampflamm

Kaiserslautern isn't tiny. And I don't think they could have just built another 60,000 seater in the middle of nowhere. Interestingly enough, initially most cities just wanted to upgrade the existing track & field stadiums but when it became clear that some cities wanted to build new ones, all jumped on the bandwagon, knowing that a small upgrade wouldn't cut it (at least in a place like Northrhine-Westfalia).


----------



## antigr12

i talk about the little stand in the left side that looks small comparing to the others , they should rebuild it or increase it to have a symetric stadium .


----------



## SOLOMON

beautiful venues... Berlin's olympic stadium is my favorite!. for the World Cup it looks fantastic.
Munich, Allianz Arena in second place.


----------



## decapitated

Gelsenkirchen. and total cost of this arena was only about 190 million Euro


----------



## Durbsboi

I read an article in my paper yesterday, warning black people to NOT but tickets for matches played in certain areas in Germany due to Attacks on other race's there, is this true?


----------



## Kampflamm

Durbsboi said:


> I read an article in my paper yesterday, warning black people to NOT but tickets for matches played in certain areas in Germany due to Attacks on other race's there, is this true?


That's a load of bs. There've been attacks on foreigners in the past, but as a German I'm probably more likely to be beaten up by foreigners (or kids with migrant backgrounds) than the other way around.

One venue is in eastern Germany (Leipzig), but the city's fairly cosmopolitan and open-minded. It's not like games are staged in run-down commieblock ghettos.


----------



## Socrates

Most of the venues in this world cup are rubbish imo. Simply not big enough.

My top 3 though are:

Allianz Arena (Munich)
AufSchalke Arena (Gelsenkirchen) 
Westfalenstadion, renamed: Signal Iduna Park (Dortmund)


----------



## Kampflamm

Are you the same guy who's constantly singing the praises of the 94 world cup? Compare the size of the venues to the last one staged in Europe and you'll see the light.


----------



## Socrates

Kampflamm said:


> Are you the same guy who's constantly singing the praises of the 94 world cup? Compare the size of the venues to the last one staged in Europe and you'll see the light.


I'm not that guy actually. And I'm pretty sure that guy happens to love the German stadiums.


----------



## Kampflamm

> Most of the venues in this world cup are rubbish imo. Simply not big enough.


So how big should the venues be? Twelve 80,000 seaters? And a big, run-down stadium (like the ones you can encounter in South America) is more rubbish than a brand-new, state of the art 40,000 seater.

Anyway, nice picture from this week's game at Schalke


----------



## 2752

Kampflamm said:


> Are you the same guy who's constantly singing the praises of the 94 world cup? Compare the size of the venues to the last one staged in Europe and you'll see the light.


I love the new German stadiums young sausage!! I also thought 94 was a huge success (because it was).


----------



## Kampflamm

Kaiserslautern


----------



## Kampflamm

New lawn's being installed in Frankfurt (note that the roof is closed)


----------



## The Hunted

The temporary support columns have been removed from the south stand at the Fritz walter stadium.


----------



## Kampflamm

Martuh said:


> Berlin and those other athletic things suck. They just need to remove the fuckin athletics track by or lowering the pitch and building the stands to the field. I don't care even if they use retractable seats or something.
> 
> *GET RID OF THE ATHLETICS TRACK!*


I understand your anger, but at least in Berlin (and to a certain extent Stuttgart) that wasn't really an option.


----------



## Mo Rush

Kampflamm said:


> New lawn's being installed in Frankfurt (note that the roof is closed)


also not that there are no holes so u wont get soaked when it rains.


----------



## GNU

Dortmund :cheers:


----------



## antigr12

Kampflamm said:


> Kaiserslautern




the stadium could fit in the " poorest main stand " thread , like OT , st-james park and celtic park , one side plus behind the goals are hugely redevelopped and it stays a crappy part .


----------



## Rainier Meadows

Sorry 500 post limit.


----------



## jmancuso

reopened and pruned per request. you OWE me kampfy! :yes:


----------



## eddyk

Nice one :banana:


----------



## Durbsboi

Kampflamm said:


> New lawn's being installed in Frankfurt *(note that the roof is closed)*


no shit sherlock


----------



## GNU

Great that the thread has been reopened :cheers: 

I just found a nice website with nice pics from the wc venues:

pics from a Bundesliga game between Frankfurt and Leverkusen


















Schalke

the north curve:


















Hamburg:


















Munich:



















rainy Dortmund:


----------



## Kampflamm

jmancuso said:


> reopened and pruned per request. you OWE me kampfy! :yes:


Next time I'm in Houston, I'll buy you a beer.


----------



## Kampflamm

Kaiserslautern has been relegated to the 2nd Bundesliga, which means that two venues (Cologne and Kaiserslautern) will be home to league 2 teams next season.


----------



## GNU

new standard FIFA seats are being installed in Kaiserslautern.
















note that theres only one pillar left


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

^^ no offence, but that is one ugly looking stadium


----------



## David Byrne

Its alL gUUd said:


> no offence, but that is one ugly stadium


That comment will probably offend ugly people everywhere


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

David Byrne said:


> That comment will probably offend ugly people everywhere


so your offended?


----------



## David Byrne

Not in the slightest. I am a handsome devil


----------



## Durbsboi

LOL, funny basturds.

Dortmund aint ugly, thats where LIVERPOOL won the treble back in 2001, what a game, we won 5-4 that night in Extra time!


----------



## GNU

speaking of dortmund

This is the new training ground


----------



## SGoico

Back to poll, I voted for Gelsenkirchen which is nice from every angle. Can't say the same for Munich Stadium, the interior is great but don't like the exterior (like the color scheme, though) I'm not really get used to this shape...

Can't wait to the tournament!


----------



## Uncle Chop Chop

I wonder what Berti Vogts is doing for the World Cup.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

I've just watched a clip of the Berlin Olympic stadium on the FifaWC site and i have to say i can't believe it is hosting the final. How is this going to age well? it probably will need to be knocked down in a decade or so, and those pillars don't do anything for it at all. they should have Restored it more extensively then that


----------



## Kampflamm

What are you talking about? It's been around for 70 years now so why shouldn't it age well?

And the restoration was more than extensive. It cost more than twice as much as most new stadiums.

Before










After


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Why couldn't they get round putting in pillars for the roof? not extensive enough, its just an honest opinion that in a couple of years its gonna look dated again if you know what i mean. It already kind of does(sorry)


----------



## Kampflamm

Its AlL gUUd said:


> Why couldn't they get round putting in pillars for the roof? not extensive enough, its just an honest opinion that in a couple of years its gonna look dated again if you know what i mean. It already kind of does(sorry)


They wanted to keep the same sort of "coliseumesque" look that the old stadium had, hence they couldn't use pylons like the ones you see in Dortmund. Add to that the fact that the marathon gate was supposed to be kept w/o a roof as well and you can see why they had to use those pillars. This isn't a cost cutting measure.

Sorry, but what looks dated about it? I think the roof's pretty awesome.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

If u compare it with the last couple of Venues to host the final, they were better in comparison, don't get me wrong i understand they wanted to stay with tradition and all that but times have moved on


----------



## Kampflamm

I don't think they were that much better. I love the Stade de France but the stadium in Yokohama had a running track as well. What's more the Olympiastadion is state of the art in many respects. It's not like they just added a roof to a 70 year old stadium.


----------



## Ivan Drago

Berlin Olympic Stadium = poor man's Hampden.


----------



## Kampflamm

Ivan Drago said:


> Berlin Olympic Stadium = poor man's Hampden.


LOL. Scottish humor's almost as good as its English counterpart.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Nah, Berlin Olympic stadium is still streets ahead of Hampden (as are many stadiums)


----------



## Ivan Drago

No its not. 
Support poles all over the place blocking peoples views + track seperating fans from the action meaning the most spectators need binoculars = rubbish stadium, unfit to be hosting the World Cup final.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Ivan Drago said:


> No its not.
> Support poles all over the place blocking peoples views + track seperating fans from the action meaning the most spectators need binoculars = rubbish stadium, *unfit to be hosting the World Cup final.*


i agree with the last bit, but in general Berlin is better then Hampden.
lets face it Hampden isn't up to much


----------



## Ivan Drago

I know of Hampden's faults, and have expressed my disapproval of the current stadium. But based on undisputable evidence, Hampden > Berlin.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

LMAO!!!!!!

:hahaha: :lol: :laugh: :rofl: :hilarious


----------



## Ivan Drago

Its not funny, people will pay good money to see next to nothing. Here is what a Brazil v Germany game will look like










And thats me being generous - all the players in the above mock up are 8ft tall!


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

yes i know, but doesn't make hampden better though


----------



## Ivan Drago

Yes it does. Here's the same match from one of many restricted views










Hampden (the victor) can go and do its lap of honour now.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

you went through all that trouble for me? i am so flattered....


----------



## Ivan Drago

It often takes a lot of effort to enlighten the ignorant people of this world, but when they come round to the correct way of thinking it makes it all worthwhile.


----------



## Mo Rush

lets face it..berlin olympic stadium classier and overall a better stadium than hampden or ibrox...but to be honest a world cup for football should be held in a football stadium...where people pay to watch football..so for the olympics athens had basically almost every football stadium with an athletics track...but hey thats the olympics and nobody cares about the football as a sport in those games...but HELLOOOO this is the FOOTBALL WORLD CUP...emphasis on football..shud be played in football stadia...give the final to allianz...however this does not discredit the quality of the berlin olympic staidum...have those poles been removed yet!?
spot the small people on the field!!


----------



## Coventry Nutter

Berlin is much better than Hampden, and slightly better than Ibrox.


The reason for the poles has been explained many times. If you cannot understand it then you need to go back to school.


----------



## Kampflamm

Mo Rush said:


> lets face it..berlin olympic stadium classier and overall a better stadium than hampden or ibrox...but to be honest a world cup for football should be held in a football stadium...where people pay to watch football..so for the olympics athens had basically almost every football stadium with an athletics track...but hey thats the olympics and nobody cares about the football as a sport in those games...but HELLOOOO this is the FOOTBALL WORLD CUP...emphasis on football..shud be played in football stadia...give the final to allianz...however this does not discredit the quality of the berlin olympic staidum...have those poles been removed yet!?
> spot the small people on the field!!


Have you ever been to a football game? Then you'd know that in real life you can see the pitch much better.

Anyway, a number of finals have been held in stadiums with a running track. Munich would have been better but Berlin's the capital with the biggest stadium. And to most of the fans, it won't make a difference where the game's played because you'll be sitting in front of your tv.


----------



## Mo Rush

Kampflamm said:


> Have you ever been to a football game? Then you'd know that in real life you can see the pitch much better.
> 
> Anyway, a number of finals have been held in stadiums with a running track. Munich would have been better but Berlin's the capital with the biggest stadium. And to most of the fans, it won't make a difference where the game's played because you'll be sitting in front of your tv.


lol im not sure what ur point is..the visibility of the action might be exagerated in these few posts...again...it might not matter...but a football world cup and especially the final should be played in a football stadium without an athletics track...ive been to football matches played at stadia with and without athletics tracks...guess which one was better and closer to the action...


----------



## Kampflamm

> lol im not sure what ur point is..


The point is quite simple. In a picture the pitch looks pretty far away but in real life it won't appear to be that bad.

Now, there's no need to debate which stadium is more visitor-friendly, but as I said, to you, me and billions of other fans around the world this doesn't matter at all.


----------



## Coventry Nutter

Mo Rush said:


> lol im not sure what ur point is..the visibility of the action might be exagerated in these few posts...again...it might not matter...but a football world cup and especially the final should be played in a football stadium without an athletics track...ive been to football matches played at stadia with and without athletics tracks...guess which one was better and closer to the action...


but why would FIFA give a shit about 10000 fans with restricted views? In the real world, the final will always be played in the capital if the capital is the largest city with the biggest stadium. It's all about money/media/hotels/cities etc. FIFA couldn't give a monkeys about 10000 fans with restricted views, and why should they, it's irrelevant!! The stadium would be full even if there was 200 poles holding the roof up. The stadium will be full with or without an athletics track. The millions watching on TV will still watch the TV regardless of roof supports. Not one fan in the world will switch his telly off because he doesn't like roof supports in stadiums!! FIFA isn't a charity who's aim is to give 70000 fans a better view of a single 90 minute game. It's aim is to generate money.


Welcome to the real world!


----------



## Ivan Drago

Coventry Nutter said:


> Berlin is much better than Hampden, and slightly better than Ibrox.
> 
> 
> The reason for the poles has been explained many times. If you cannot understand it then you need to go back to school.


Theres a reason for revenge killings too, but that doesn't make them any less bad.


----------



## Coventry Nutter

Yes, it is true that the Poles didn't deserve such harsh treatment!!


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Coventry Nutter said:


> Berlin is much better than Hampden, and slightly better than *Ibrox.*
> 
> 
> The reason for the poles has been explained many times. If you cannot understand it then you need to go back to school.


OMG you have admitted that another stadium is better then that which is in Bold, i think your turning a corner


----------



## Kampflamm

Its AlL gUUd said:


> OMG you have admitted that another stadium is better then that which is in Bold, i think your turning a corner


Therapy is beginning to work.


----------



## Ivan Drago

This is why Berlin should not be hosting the World Cup Final.


----------



## Ivan Drago

The only real question is








OR


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Im just wondering when in the future are they planning on taking down those pillars and modernising it, kampy any idea?


----------



## Ivan Drago

Apparently they're a design feature! ^

:bash:


----------



## GEwinnen

Its AlL gUUd said:


> Im just wondering when in the future are they planning on taking down those pillars and modernising it, kampy any idea?


I ll try: The reason for the pillars is the gap in the roof.


----------



## Durbsboi

regarding this poles thing, they cant change it, its there, tough if you sitting infront of one. German engineering should be the worlds best, but it failed terribly in this stadium, they should have came up with a better support system for this stadium, seeing that it is a classic stadia, they should have designed a better roof support system, like athens (pleez dont attack me for saying that) all I can say is that the structural engineers for this job never opened thier eye to the fans perspective, take a look at most stadiums in england, all the roof support is above the sheeting, hence no need for poles, it does look ugly but nobody care as long as they enjoying the game, this would have been my proposal.


----------



## Kampflamm

How often do I have to explain this? They wanted to keep the original look of the stadium which was supposed to resemble Roman coliseums. Hence they couldn't add anything to the roof that could be seen from the outside. This was the best solution considering the regulations that were put in place (no roof over marathon gate, "coliseum look").


----------



## Kampflamm

Its AlL gUUd said:


> Im just wondering when in the future are they planning on taking down those pillars and modernising it, kampy any idea?


As soon as they find a solution on how the roof will stay up w/o any support from things that are added to the outside of the roof.

I think some people (eg the Greek Scotsman) aren't capable of understanding why these pillars are in place. This wasn't a cost cutting measure. They pretty much chose the best of the best for everything (hence the huge price tag). If it could have been done w/o pillars, it would have been done.


----------



## Durbsboi

Kampflamm said:


> They wanted to keep the original look of the stadium which was supposed to resemble Roman coliseums. Hence they couldn't add anything to the roof that could be seen from the outside. This was the best solution considering the regulations that were put in place (no roof over marathon gate, "coliseum look").


whats with the roman look? this is Germany, the home of porsche, bmw, mercedes benz, sausage, laderhosen, autobhans, Dietmier Hamman, why roman? Surely they knew that the finals were to be hosted here, why not throw in some German heritage here & there.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Durbsboi said:


> regarding this poles thing, they cant change it, its there, tough if you sitting infront of one. German engineering should be the worlds best, but it failed terribly in this stadium, they should have came up with a better support system for this stadium, seeing that it is a classic stadia, they should have designed a better roof support system, like athens (pleez dont attack me for saying that) all I can say is that the structural engineers for this job never opened thier eye to the fans perspective, take a look at most stadiums in england, all the roof support is above the sheeting, hence no need for poles, it does look ugly but nobody care as long as they enjoying the game, this would have been my proposal.


Great work


----------



## Durbsboi

^^Is that sarcasim or do you really like it?


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

well i think thats how it should look, and there would be no need for the pillars


----------



## bravoman

Durbsboi said:


> regarding this poles thing, they cant change it, its there, tough if you sitting infront of one. German engineering should be the worlds best, but it failed terribly in this stadium, they should have came up with a better support system for this stadium, seeing that it is a classic stadia, they should have designed a better roof support system, like athens (pleez dont attack me for saying that) all I can say is that the structural engineers for this job never opened thier eye to the fans perspective, take a look at most stadiums in england, all the roof support is above the sheeting, hence no need for poles, it does look ugly but nobody care as long as they enjoying the game, this would have been my proposal.



For the 100th time: There are very strict regulations about the protection of historical buildings in Germany. The Olympic Stadium was put under a preservation order, thus your unprecedented roof design was not possible, creative genius.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

its just a shame that those pillars need to be there


----------



## Loranga

Can you really say that this building is renovated? It looks like it is completely rebuilt (and can you then say it is renovated?)


----------



## Durbsboi

bravoman said:


> For the 100th time: There are very strict regulations about the protection of historical buildings in Germany. The Olympic Stadium was put under a preservation order, thus your unprecedented roof design was not possible, creative genius.


Sheesh relax Johnny boy, Kampflamm told us that already. I wasnt aware of that, until Kampflamm informed me. It still is my fav stadium from all, even with the running track.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

couldn't they rip out the track just for the WC and increase capacity with temporary seating and then reinstate the track after it was over?


----------



## Kampflamm

Durbsboi said:


> whats with the roman look? this is Germany, the home of porsche, bmw, mercedes benz, sausage, laderhosen, autobhans, Dietmier Hamman, why roman? Surely they knew that the finals were to be hosted here, why not throw in some German heritage here & there.


It was built by the Nazis and a lot of Nazi architecture was obviously inspired by the Romans. They wanted this look and since the building's on a heritage list not too much can be changed, which IMO is a good thing. The stadium looks pretty imposing from the outside and I think a fancy roof might have destroyed that look.


----------



## Ivan Drago

In all seriousness for a minute:

I was under the impression that any buildings designed or built by the Nazis and those that were damaged during the war were rebuilt to look exactly the same as before, but that the origins of the buildings and their history was a bit of a taboo subject among Germans, and very rarely - if ever - discussed? 

Is this true, or has my history teacher been spinning a yarn?


----------



## GNU

Durbsboi said:


> whats with the roman look? this is Germany, the home of porsche, bmw, mercedes benz, sausage, laderhosen, autobhans, Dietmier Hamman, why roman? Surely they knew that the finals were to be hosted here, why not throw in some German heritage here & there.


Southern Germany used to be occupied by the romans.
Many german cities have a heavy latin/roman influence especially in acrhitecture.

Btw: what would be your idea of german heritage in stadium design?
Maybe a stadium that resembles a sausage?


----------



## GNU

Its AlL gUUd said:


> couldn't they rip out the track just for the WC and increase capacity with temporary seating and then reinstate the track after it was over?


Why should they?


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Checker said:


> Why should they?


because football (especially the final) IMO shouldn't be played with an thletics track around it.


----------



## Durbsboi

Checker said:


> Btw: what would be your idea of german heritage in stadium design?
> Maybe a stadium that resembles a sausage?


no something more like those huge jugs of beer you get there


----------



## GNU

Its AlL gUUd said:


> because football (especially the final) IMO shouldn't be played with an thletics track around it.


name me the last wc final that was played in a stadium without a running track


----------



## GNU

Durbsboi said:


> no something more like those huge jugs of beer you get there


we got that already.

The Veltins Arena is one of the wc venues. Satisfied?


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Checker said:


> name me the last wc final that was played in a stadium without a running track


Stade de France, 98


----------



## Mo Rush

most people get that either way berlin was to host the final...whether it had a stadium or not...and i know its about making money in deciding the location of the final but at the end of the day a football match esp the world cup final shud be played in a football stadium whther you like it or not...while berlin remains an amazing stadium and all..and its def to host to host football matches...but its just not cool that it is played in a venue with an athletics track..something many are paying to watch...its not illegal or wrong to play football matches in a stadium with an athletics track..not at all...but seriously...its the world cup final..like yokohama etc...just not cool..


----------



## GNU

Its AlL gUUd said:


> Stade de France, 98


happens to have a running track. :|


----------



## Durbsboi

yes thank you. btw by german heritage I meant something germans are popular for like their engineering, so a nice type of roof, like a feature like the athens olympic stadium.


----------



## GNU

Mo Rush said:


> most people get that either way berlin was to host the final...whether it had a stadium or not...and i know its about making money in deciding the location of the final but at the end of the day a football match esp the world cup final shud be played in a football stadium whther you like it or not...while berlin remains an amazing stadium and all..and its def to host to host football matches...but its just not cool that it is played in a venue with an athletics track..something many are paying to watch...its not illegal or wrong to play football matches in a stadium with an athletics track..not at all...but seriously...its the world cup final..like yokohama etc...just not cool..


Right. 

So following your logic the world cup finals that were held in rome,yokohma,Paris were all uncool because there was an athletics track round the field.

I see...


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Checker said:


> happens to have a running track. :|


err no it happens to have retractable seating where a track can be put in e.g. the world champs, but in its normal state it doesn't have no athletic track, only for major events


----------



## Durbsboi

Checker said:


> happens to have a running track. :|


yes you are correct, but it also has a modern unique feature which allows them to bring the stands closer to the pitch, there by covering the running track, so whilst a soccer match is being played, there is no running track present 

oh I see Its all guud has all ready pointed that out :runaway:


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

the stade de france was built for the world cup so its main purpose is for football


----------



## GNU

Its AlL gUUd said:


> err no it happens to have retractable seating where a track can be put in e.g. the world champs, but in its normal state it doesn't have no athletic track, only for major events


Correct. It has retractable stands. Yet, if you look closely you'll see that the stands dont cover the whole of the athletics track, especially at both ends of the pitch. 










As you can see, the fans are considerably far away from the pitch.


----------



## GNU

Its AlL gUUd said:


> the stade de france was built for the world cup so its main purpose is for football



No it isnt.

It is the national stadium of France. 
Rugby,Football and athletics events are all being held there.

Not to mention that the Stade de France would have been the Olympic stadium if Paris wouldnt have lost the bid to London


----------



## Durbsboi

you know the old wembley was like this too, did that have a running track? cant remember?


----------



## Kampflamm

Checker said:


> name me the last wc final that was played in a stadium without a running track


The Rose Bowl didn't have a track either but that stadium's just crap, so the last decent stadium w/o a track was the Estadio Azteca.

I really don't understand why some people are so pissed off. Sure, if you've got tickets to the game I can understand your anger but to most of us the track won't make a difference.


----------



## GNU

Durbsboi said:


> you know the old wembley was like this too, did that have a running track? cant remember?


So whats your point?

I thought it mocked you guys that fans are too far away from the pitch in Berlin?
Yet you werent complaining about the finals in yokohama.Rome or the european championship finals in Brussels and London.


----------



## Durbsboi

Checker said:


> No it isnt.
> 
> It is the national stadium of France.
> Rugby,Football and athletics events are all being held there.
> 
> Not to mention that the Stade de France would have been the Olympic stadium if Paris wouldnt have lost the bid to London


But the catalyst to build the stadium was for the 98 world cup mate 
although it does host many other sports events, it was the main stadium for France 98, just like how we here in Durban SA are planning to build a multi disciplane stadium for 2010, primary reasoning for building the world cup & there after would host athletics & other sporting events.


----------



## Durbsboi

Checker said:


> So whats your point?
> 
> I thought it mocked you guys that fans are too far away from the pitch in Berlin?
> Yet you werent complaining about the finals in yokohama.Rome or the european championship finals in Brussels and London.


hey I wasnt complaining about it, it was Its AlL gUud, i was just talking about those poles. just thought i'd comment on the running track, thats all.


----------



## Kampflamm

Checker said:


> So whats your point?
> 
> I thought it mocked you guys that fans are too far away from the pitch in Berlin?
> Yet you werent complaining about the finals in yokohama.Rome or the european championship finals in Brussels and London.


Wasn't the EC 2000 final in Rotterdam?

The thing is that Berlin wants to host the Olympics in the future and it'll probably host an athletics wc in a couple of years as well. So totally doing away with the track wasn't really an option. Lowering the pitch and adding extra seats would have cost too much money. I mean how many games are played in Berlin? 5? Can you imagine the costs for all of that?


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Checker said:


> So whats your point?
> 
> I thought it mocked you guys that fans are too far away from the pitch in Berlin?
> Yet you werent complaining about the finals in yokohama.Rome or the european championship finals in Brussels and London.


wembley did not have an athletics track around it during euro96, the distance is not as bad as Berlins stadium, i just don't like stadium with athletics tracks hosting a final


----------



## Durbsboi

Heres some good news that we will all like about Berlin's stadium SHAKIRA the latin goddess will be performing her smash hit "hips dont lie" at the final of the FIFA World Cup in Berlin.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Kampflamm said:


> Wasn't the EC 2000 final in Rotterdam?
> 
> The thing is that Berlin wants to host the Olympics in the future and it'll probably host an athletics wc in a couple of years as well. So totally doing away with the track wasn't really an option. Lowering the pitch and adding extra seats would have cost too much money. I mean how many games are played in Berlin? 5? Can you imagine the costs for all of that?


i don't know if Berlin's stadium may even be able to host an Olympics, especially with the time involved, other stadias wil surpass it


----------



## NavyBlue

I wish people would get over this running track/fans too far from the pitch rubbish. Most of us won't be at the final and so the stands being a little further away will have no impact on our TV viewing experience. 

This is the only stadium worthy of hosting the final as it's in the capital, the largest and most historic venue in Germany.


----------



## GNU

Durbsboi said:


> But the catalyst to build the stadium was for the 98 world cup mate
> although it does host many other sports events, it was the main stadium for France 98, just like how we here in Durban SA are planning to build a multi disciplane stadium for 2010, primary reasoning for building the world cup & there after would host athletics & other sporting events.


So why isnt the stade de France a pure football stadium then?
why did they chose to install a running track?

Honestly: dont compare France 98 to Germany 2006. the french almost didnt invest anything in the other venues.
They put all their money in the stade de France in typical centralised fashion.


----------



## GNU

Its AlL gUUd said:


> wembley did not have an athletics track around it during euro96, the distance is not as bad as Berlins stadium, i just don't like stadium with athletics tracks hosting a final


What you like and dont like obviously is no basis for a fundamental discussion.
Fact is that the fans in the old wembly were atleast as much as far away as they are in Berlin.


----------



## Kampflamm

Its AlL gUUd said:


> i don't know if Berlin's stadium may even be able to host an Olympics, especially with the time involved, other stadias wil surpass it


Why? Athens practically had an old bowl as well. The new stadium has an indoor running track and lots of other modern features. It's not like you can really reinvent the wheel with stadiums. Just compare the coliseum to most modern stadia and you'll see that the basic design still is the same.


----------



## GNU

Kampflamm said:


> Wasn't the EC 2000 final in Rotterdam?


correct. Mistake on my behalf


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Kampflamm said:


> Why? Athens practically had an old bowl as well. The new stadium has an indoor running track and lots of other modern features. It's not like you can really reinvent the wheel with stadiums. Just compare the coliseum to most modern stadia and you'll see that the basic design still is the same.


its just the poles and everything make it look a bit......


----------



## GNU

Its AlL gUUd said:


> its just the poles and everything make it look a bit......


There were also poles in the old wembley btw :lol:


----------



## Durbsboi

Checker said:


> So why isnt the stade de France a pure football stadium then?
> why did they chose to install a running track?
> 
> Honestly: dont compare France 98 to Germany 2006. the french almost didnt invest anything in the other venues.
> They put all their money in the stade de France in typical centralised fashion.


read my post carefully, I am not here to attack you, calm down



durbsboi said:


> But the catalyst to build the stadium was for the 98 world cup mate
> although it does host many other sports events, it was the main stadium for France 98, just like how we here in Durban SA are planning to build a multi disciplane stadium for 2010, primary reasoning for building the world cup & there after would host athletics & other sporting events.


I like the Berlin stadium, & I was not comparing France 98 to Germany 06, thats just stupid to do so, I was just commenting on the poles & saw the post on the running track from *Its AlL GuUd*.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Checker said:


> There were also poles in the old wembley btw :lol:


Exactly, thats why its being rebuilt


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Durbsboi said:


> read my post carefully, I am not here to attack you, calm down
> 
> 
> 
> I like the Berlin stadium, & I was not comparing France 98 to Germany 06, thats just stupid to do so, I was just commenting on the poles & saw the post on the running track from *Its AlL GuUd*.


thats very good of you to pass the buck like that :sleepy:


----------



## Durbsboi

^^ Sorry bro, I already got into shit once today, twice & i'll be out of here 
I was geniunly here to comment on the roof & poles.


----------



## Kampflamm

Its AlL gUUd said:


> its just the poles and everything make it look a bit......


I don't like the poles either (that doesn't sound right coming from a German  ), but there's much more to the stadium than just the poles. 

I don't think Berlin will get the games anyway, Hamburg would be a much better choice.


----------



## GNU

Durbsboi said:


> read my post carefully, I am not here to attack you, calm down.


I read it and gave you an answer, which you obviously didnt read as carefully as I read your post. 
Btw: Im always calm. No need for you telling me that. :lol:




Durbsboi said:


> I like the Berlin stadium, & I was not comparing France 98 to Germany 06, thats just stupid to do so, I was just commenting on the poles & saw the post on the running track from *Its AlL GuUd*.


Fine so?
btw: You were commenting on the running track, and you were comparing the olympic stadium to the stade de France.


----------



## GNU

Its AlL gUUd said:


> Exactly, thats why its being rebuilt


...with our money :sleepy:


----------



## GNU

To change the topic a bit:

The wc pitch has been installed in Cologne :cheers:


----------



## Poor Man's Bubomb

Its AlL gUUd said:


> thats very good of you to pass the buck like that :sleepy:


Hate it when that happens


----------



## Durbsboi

Checker said:


> Fine so?
> btw: You were commenting on the running track, and you were comparing the olympic stadium to the stade de France.


btw: I was commenting on the running track but I did not compare it to the sta de Denis :cheers:

Whislt we busy with olympic stadiums, whats going to happen to the Munich olympic stadium now that Bayern have moved into Allianz?


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

ok you don't like admitting being wrong, fair enough


----------



## Dare to Love

England DO have no chance, so Seth is correct. These are the plain facts!!


----------



## Seth Gecko

Its AlL gUUd said:


> ok you don't like admitting being wrong, fair enough


I know "beating me" means the world to you, but I am not wrong. England have no chance. Thats what I said, and that is an unescapable fact. 11 robotic Peter Crouch's couldn't win you this world cup, and neither will the current crop of "stars".


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

err did i even say that England WILL win the WC?


----------



## Dare to Love

no, you said they have a chance....which they don't!!


----------



## Seth Gecko

Its AlL gUUd said:


> err did i even say that England WILL win the WC?


I said England had no chance, you said I was wrong.
:weirdo:


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

no the post asked.... im not getting into this


----------



## KiwiBrit

> I said England had no chance, you said I was wrong.


Of course England 'have a chance'. They have qualified for the finals, and for that reason alone they have a chance (no matter how small!).

Now a team, like for instance Scotland have NO CHANCE. Because they did NOT QUALIFY (again!).

I do hope this clears up this little squabble - Good night!


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

KiwiBrit said:


> Of course England 'have a chance'. They have qualified for the finals, and for that reason alone they have a chance (no matter how small!).
> 
> Now a team, like for instance Scotland have NO CHANCE. Because they did NOT QUALIFY (again!).
> 
> I do hope this clears up this little squabble - Good night!


Well Said!

sleep tight


----------



## Dare to Love

KiwiBrit said:


> Of course England 'have a chance'. They have qualified for the finals, and for that reason alone they have a chance (no matter how small!).
> 
> Now a team, like for instance Scotland have NO CHANCE. Because they did NOT QUALIFY (again!).
> 
> I do hope this clears up this little squabble - Good night!



No, you have the same chance of winning the 2006 World Cup as Scotland do - zero chance!

In fact, this year Scotland will have won more trophies than England!!!!


----------



## Seth Gecko

I've just decided I am going to go to Germany around the 19th and take in a game or two. Does anyone know a way of circumventing the 'personalised ticket' thing as I will most likely have to get one from a tout.

Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## KiwiBrit

> Originally Posted by *Dare to Love*
> No, you have the same chance of winning the 2006 World Cup as Scotland do - zero chance!
> 
> In fact, this year Scotland will have won more trophies than England!!!!


I'd give Scotland another trophy this season too. Having the biggest jerk of a supporter for 2006...you!
:cheers:


----------



## Kampflamm

> I've just decided I am going to go to Germany around the 19th and take in a game or two. Does anyone know a way of circumventing the 'personalised ticket' thing as I will most likely have to get one from a tout.


You're gonna have to pay a lot though...unless you're planning to see the Tunesia v Saudi-Arabia match.

I also don't think they're gonna be selling tickets outside of the stadiums. Maybe you should check ebay.


----------



## Seth Gecko

I was basing my choice of game on the status of the teams involved, the stadium its played in and the likelihood of getting a ticket. Was thinking Spain vs Tunisia, Paraguay vs Trinidad & Tobago, and then either Portugal vs Mexico or Ivory Coast vs Serbia & Montenegro (I want to see Munich). Not the most glamourous of games, but all being played in fairly large stadiums and so shouldn't be too much of a problem if I can get round the personalised ticket thing.

On ebay I only found 1 game: USA vs Italy, £300 for 2 tickets. But the seller can transfer the tickets into my name, which I may not be able to do otherwise.


----------



## decapitated

I'm going to see Poland against Costa Rica live in Hannover, so I guess it's my favourite stadium now


----------



## GASpedal

WC-lightshow in Frankfurt.


----------



## Giorgio

I could only imagine the feeling in Germany right now. It can even be felt in Australia!
About time the Aussies discovered the *world game.*


----------



## Dare to Love

Seth Gecko said:


> I was basing my choice of game on the status of the teams involved, the stadium its played in and the likelihood of getting a ticket. Was thinking Spain vs Tunisia, Paraguay vs Trinidad & Tobago, and then either Portugal vs Mexico or Ivory Coast vs Serbia & Montenegro (I want to see Munich). Not the most glamourous of games, but all being played in fairly large stadiums and so shouldn't be too much of a problem if I can get round the personalised ticket thing.
> 
> On ebay I only found 1 game: USA vs Italy, £300 for 2 tickets. But the seller can transfer the tickets into my name, which I may not be able to do otherwise.



Don't worry, you will get a ticket easily. I have never in my life travelled to a game and not got a ticket. Even the France 98 World Cup final I got a ticket for £50!! You just ask enough people and someone has always got a spare!!


----------



## Mo Rush

GASpedal said:


> WC-lightshow in Frankfurt.


sydney did that in 2000...


----------



## Durbsboi

thats looks freeken awesome! we dont have enough high rises to do that in SA


----------



## GNU

GASpedal said:


> WC-lightshow in Frankfurt.


that looks just awesome!!

Very well done Frankfurt!


----------



## GASpedal

Mo Rush said:


> sydney did that in 2000...


Sorry, if I knew that it's already been in Sydney I wouldn't have posted them.
Same old boring shit.

Floating videowalls already there in England, lightshow stolen from Australia, opening ceremony probably the same as in Greece with some thousands of years old Chinese fireworks... 31 out of 32 teams not German... Brasil winning the WC again ... nothing new over here in Germany.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

have you got pics of what other things German cities are doing to advertise/promote the WC?


----------



## Mo Rush

*Sydney 2000 did someting similar still very cool*


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

i wanted pictures from German cities?


----------



## Durbsboi

3 days to go


----------



## FCB_Flo

Checker said:


> that looks just awesome!!
> 
> Very well done Frankfurt!


Right now (for the next hour) it's on television ('Phoenix' on Astra-Satellite).

Or as a stream: http://www.hr-online.de/website/spe...p?rubrik=17292&key=standard_document_22770030


----------



## brummad

thats a bit cool !


----------



## dubaiflo

Berliner Fernsehturm:










(T-COM ad)


----------



## skaP187

Its AlL gUUd said:


> Berlin is only 2nd because of its history, no where near as good as the Munich


?????? You're a fucking Nazi or something?????????
Where would it be without the history according to you?
I don't like the history, I def. Like the architecture. I sepperate those two, for my own goodbeeing, but you can say what you want it is an impressive stadium in Berlin (I have to give that to the Nazi's, that's about it to to be hounest)

Berlin is only 2nd because of its history.... I do not think that is a real positive thing or am I :weirdo: 
I like the stadium very very much. The design, in and outside is perfect. 
as a football ground, well it has a runningtrack, so... :eek2: 
I know the tires are not very steep, so that goes a little bit against my norms but well, and no I def. do not live in Berlin, or Germany. (Dutch living in Spain)


----------



## Seth Gecko

Berlin sucks.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

skaP187 said:


> ?????? You're a fucking Nazi or something?????????
> Where would it be without the history according to you?
> I don't like the history, I def. Like the architecture. I sepperate those two, for my own goodbeeing, but you can say what you want it is an impressive stadium in Berlin (I have to give that to the Nazi's, that's about it to to be hounest)


wot the hell u talkin about???????????!!!!!!!


----------



## Durbsboi

^^He obviously lives in Berlin, hence the violent outburst.


----------



## Durbsboi

2 days to go


----------



## Kampflamm

Those world cup waves look somewhat alright in Hamburg.


----------



## Tobi

Berlin looks great, but I just hate FOOTBALL-stadiums with a running-track.

So I'll just have to vote for Munich. Especially the facade of the stadium looks incredible. The inside though is a shame for such a great design. Those nets behind the goals are definately from the past and who the hell puts grey seats in such an eyecatcher??? That looks so dull. Why not red and white? 
But besides that, it's an awesome venue!


----------



## skaP187

I know what you're saying, as a stadium it is allmost perfect (not so steep) and that goes for the inside and the outside. 
bye the way I am not German and I don't live in Germany (Dutch living in Spain, haha!)


----------



## www.sercan.de

Köln


----------



## www.sercan.de




----------



## www.sercan.de

This would have been better for Berlin
(Stade de France or Wembley system)
capacity~90,000


----------



## GNU

Does anybody know if the fences in Dortmund will be removed?
It would piss me off big time if they stay.
It looks crappy for the TV audience.


----------



## victory

Checker said:


> Does anybody know if the fences in Dortmund will be removed?
> It would piss me off big time if they stay.
> It looks crappy for the TV audience.


I think they have to be removed under FIFA regs.


----------



## Kampflamm

Durbsboi said:


> ^^Yes we know they lowerd the pitch, which idiot thought other wise?


Apparently Mo Rush did:

_"i mean manchester spent money on lowering the level to cater for football after the commonwealth games...germany isnt exactly short on money and lowering the level of the field would be a tough task but heck its the football world cup we talking about...so my question is would you have done anything about the distance between the field and spectators if it was in ur power??"_


----------



## Durbsboi

^hehehehe, dumbass


----------



## Mo Rush

Durbsboi said:


> ^hehehehe, dumbass


fine so was the pitch level lowered at the beginning of the remodel?


----------



## Seth Gecko

Oelanddk said:


> ...this event is going be gorgeous!


I'm sure I made a post like this but I can't find it. Who is this other guy supposed to represent?


----------



## www.sercan.de

skaP187 said:


> Very nice design Sercan, this they realy should do in Berlin (a bit of St Denis thing no?)
> I am afraid they can't, because the design is protected... but they should anyway!


IMO the Wembley system is the cheapest one

only a platform has to be built for Athletic events


----------



## Seth Gecko

Wembley looks like a bathroom sink in those line drawings


----------



## tv123

Seth Gecko said:


> I'm sure I made a post like this but I can't find it. Who is this other guy supposed to represent?


Argentina


----------



## Durbsboi

Mo Rush said:


> fine so was the pitch level lowered at the beginning of the remodel?


It was done before they put the new roof.


----------



## Nils

> when was the pitch lowered? at th beginning of the remodel?


Not at the beginning of the remodelling. they had to wait for the euro 2004 to have enough time after the season 2003/2004 to complete the pitch lowering before the season 2004/2005 started. the remodelling of the stadium started in 2003 if i remember correctly.


----------



## GASpedal

Its AlL gUUd said:


> well this construction pic shows no running track, why couldn't they keep it like this?


Are you kidding?

Pitch and distances are exactly the same right now. The only difference is blue paint on the running track, instead of unfinished grey. So you like grey..? Why the hell should they keep it like that?

Even if there was something like in Stade de France or if they lowered the pitch: The existing 76.000 seats will always be as far away from the pitch as they are! No matter what they do. There would be some additional 10.000 - 5.000 seats which would be a bit closer. That's all.
I think there is no other stadium with running track, where people are still sitting so close at the track and the pitch.

Look at this - WC Final 2002:











Mo Rush said:


> germany isnt exactly short on money and lowering the level of the field would be a tough task but heck its the football world cup we talking about...


The city of Berlin is virtually bankrupt.
Lowering the field would be a tough task for maybe 5-10.000 new seats nobody needs - and the distance to the existing seats remaining exactly the same. Does that make sense?


----------



## ManBags

GASpedal said:


> The existing 76.000 seats will always be as far away from the pitch as they are! No matter what they do. There would be some additional 10.000 - 5.000 seats which would be a bit closer.



Very good point young man!! Top marks from Bubomb for noticing this! 

You get the official 'Bubomb Stadium Seal Of Approval'!


----------



## Seth Gecko

GASpedal said:


> The existing 76.000 seats will always be as far away from the pitch as they are! No matter what they do. There would be some additional 10.000 - 5.000 seats which would be a bit closer.





ManBags said:


> Very good point young man!! Top marks from Bubomb for noticing this!
> 
> You get the official 'Bubomb Stadium Seal Of Approval'!


And he can also have the official 'Socrates seal of dissapproval'. Just because there are rubbish seats in a stadium doesn't mean they all have to be rubbish. Having every seat as crap as they are is not ok, especially since there is so much under utilised space available that could be used to install seats with a decent view situated a reasonable distance form the pitch. 

And just because the 2002 WC Final was in a crap venue doesn't mean its ok for Germany to follow suit.


----------



## ManBags

but his point was that digging downwards would not change a thing for the original 75000 seats (they actually would be slightly further away if the pitch was lowered!!). That was his only point, and he was correct in noticing it!


----------



## Seth Gecko

Just booked my flights to Germany. Flying out on the 16th for the weekend. Yipee!
And its safe to say I will not be venturing near this much discussed venue in Berlin!


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

Seth Gecko said:


> And he can also have the official 'Socrates seal of dissapproval'. Just because there are rubbish seats in a stadium doesn't mean they all have to be rubbish. Having every seat as crap as they are is not ok, especially since there is so much under utilised space available that could be used to install seats with a decent view situated a reasonable distance form the pitch.
> 
> And just because the 2002 WC Final was in a crap venue doesn't mean its ok for Germany to follow suit.


i can't believe this, but i actually agree with you


----------



## thiz_iz_disco

in my opinion, the best is gelzenkirchen stadium, because it is alomost like mix of some indoor arena and real footbal stadium...for me it has very intresting desicion of architecture...i don't know, just i am fasinated by this stadium...besides, very great are frankfurt and hanover stadiums...


----------



## Durbsboi

ManBags said:


> but his point was that digging downwards would not change a thing for the original 75000 seats (they actually would be slightly further away if the pitch was lowered!!). That was his only point, and he was correct in noticing it!


I'm sure I made this exact same point somewhere along the line, maybe you were banned at the time.


----------



## www.sercan.de

WC 1974 Stadiums, Germany

Berlin, Olympiastadion
83.168
3 matches









DORTMUND, Westfalenstadion
54.000
4 matches









DÜSSELDORF, Rheinstadion
67.861
5 matches









FRANKFURT, Waldstadion
63.000
5 matches









GELSENKIRCHEN, Parkstadion
70.600
5 matches









HAMBURG, Volkspark
62.000
3 matches









HANNOVER, Niedersachsenstadion
60.254
4 matches









MÜNCHEN, Olympiastadion
77.839
5 matches









STUTTGART, Neckerstadion
72.000
4 macthes


----------



## GEwinnen

*shadows*












shadows in Gelsenkirchen


----------



## GEwinnen

Kampflamm said:


> I'm fairly sure this was the first time that anybody's hit the screen in a game. Last April (ie a couple of weeks ago), Sevilla's goalkeeper was the first person to hit the videoscreen in Schalke, so it's not exactly a common occurence.



No, he was 2nd, first was Oliver Kahn (bundesliga schalke vs. Bayern)!


----------



## Quintana

Leipzig seems like a very nice venue as well. The stands could have been a few meters closer to the field and start off with a slightly smaller elevation but it still looks pretty cool with those blue seats. It looks slightly bigger than it actually is. I like the fact they kept the old Zentral Stadion and built the whole thing in the middle of it.


----------



## www.sercan.de

and the 2nd tier is very steep, i think 36 or 37°


----------



## christoph

I found an interesting report on elpais.es, which deals about the bad broadcasting quality due to shadows in Frankfurt/Gelsenkirchen. They might close the roofs next time to achieve better picture quality. However, that would create sauna feeling.

La FIFA estudia techar los estadios para mejorar las imágenes de televisión 
El problema es que entonces la temperatura de los estadios podría llegar a niveles perjudiciales para los jugadores y el público
EFE - Berlín 
ELPAIS.es - Deportes - 11-06-2006 - 13:25 
La FIFA estudia cerrar los techos de algunos estadios los días de sol para evitar los claroscuros en las imágenes de televisión, aunque antes se comprobará que esta medida no es perjudicial para los jugadores por una elevación de la temperatura.

Markus Siegler, director de Comunicación de la FIFA, reconoció hoy que la calidad de imagen del partido Inglaterra-Paraguay, disputado el sábado, fue bastante deficiente por los contrastes de sol y sombra. "Estamos evaluando cerrar el techo de los estadios de Fráncfort y Gelsenkirchen en los partidos a primera hora de la tarde, pero antes queremos saber si eso significará una subida importante de la temperatura", señaló Siegler.

El portavoz de la FIFA indicó que no quieren que se repitan "escenas tan dramáticas como las del Mundial de Estados Unidos'94, cuando en sitios como Detroit el termómetro alcanzó los 50 grados en el terreno de juego".

Siegler, con respecto al cambio de entrenador en la selección de Togo, afirmó que están a la espera de que la federación de ese país les confirme si definitivamente su sustituto será el hasta ahora tercer técnico Kodjovi Mawuena. "Lo que sí puedo asegurar es que no habrá huelga de jugadores y que Togo debutará, como estaba previsto, contra Corea del Sur el martes en Fráncfort", sostuvo Siegler.

Jiri Dvorak, responsable médico de la FIFA y presente en la rueda de prensa de hoy, reveló que no ha habido positivos en los dos primeros partidos del Mundial, Alemania-Costa Rica y Polonia-Ecuador, disputados el viernes. Asimismo, todos los controles antidopaje efectuados antes del torneo resultaron negativos.

Siegler negó que la audiencia televisiva del partido inaugural de Múnich fuera de 1.500 millones de espectadores. "Estamos a la espera de conocer los datos, pero esa cifra ofrecida por un medio de comunicación es incorrecta".


----------



## www.sercan.de




----------



## Kampflamm

They should close the roof in both places. It will probably get a bit colder towards the end of the week and the shadows in Gelsenkirchen are absolutely horrifying. That's what I hate most about the Arena.

BTW, today was the first time I actually saw a match in the Zentralstadion and I have to say it reminds me of the Estadio Dragao (obviously a bit smaller).


----------



## www.sercan.de

IMO the should make the stand closer
adn the wall will be shorter


----------



## www.sercan.de

BTW
only 37.216 at S&M vs. NED
Capacity is 43,000


----------



## GASpedal

Yeah... and I haven't got any tickets. Thanks Fifa.


----------



## Kampflamm

I wanted to get tickets for tonight's Angola v Portugal game...thank God I didn't get any.


----------



## I Like Cheese

You must all be puffs if a few shadows on a pitch put you off a game. I watched the England game and the Frankfurt stadium looked superb!! The shadows on the pitch didn't bother me at all!! You better get your eyes tested if something like that puts you off a game!! As for the ball hitting the cube? So what??? The keeper just took another kick out, and it very rarely happens anyway!

On another note - how shit were England!! Brazil would tear them a new arsehole! England are winning nothing.....last 8 at best! (which I pointed out for the last few months).


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

those shadows were pretty awful though


----------



## Seth Gecko

1. The goalkeeper did not get to take the kick again. 

2. The new Wembley has a sliding roof to prevent a staightforward rectangular shadow covering a portion of the pitch because it is alleged to infringe on the viewing pleasure of the spectator both at home and at the stadium - some of these German stadiums have shadows in the vein of exploding fireworks. If a no frills rectangle is distracting, how can this not be? 










And I'd be surprised if a few of the players weren't more than a tad worried about the screen thing falling on their heads.


----------



## I Like Cheese

Seth Gecko said:


> 1. The goalkeeper did not get to take the kick again.
> 
> 2. The new Wembley has a sliding roof to prevent a staightforward rectangular shadow covering a portion of the pitch because it is alleged to infringe on the viewing pleasure of the spectator both at home and at the stadium - some of these German stadiums have shadows in the vein of exploding fireworks. If a no frills rectangle is distracting, how can this not be?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I'd be surprised if a few of the players weren't more than a tad worried about the screen thing falling on their heads.



Well it didn't infringe on my viewing pleasure at all, I wasn't distracted at all.....I didn't even pick up on the shadows until my mate pointed out the shape of the big cubes shadow on the pitch!! I think people these days are a bit too fussy with all these LCD's, HD etc! Give me a telly, beer and a colour picture and i'm fine!! I was more distracted by the barmaids big tits at the pub at Loch Lomond where I was watching it...they were huge!!

I was sure the ref gave the ball back to the keeper....guess not! He should of and that would be the problem solved.


----------



## Seth Gecko

Had it been a better game it wouldn't have bothered me, but since the product on display was a mild lukewarm pish, I found my attention wandering to the stadium and fans in it. Thus the hanging cube and shadow over the pitch was a welcome distraction to the god awful commentary and dull uninspired football.

But for the record I happen to like Glenskirchen, one of my 3 favourite venues, so I am not overly bothered by the screens and shadows on the pitch, even though in this instance in Frankfurt I was. 

(And I'm not a puff either btw!)


----------



## I Like Cheese

Seth Gecko said:


> (And I'm not a puff either btw!)



but I am!!!!


only joking.......or am I?


----------



## Seth Gecko

Sometimes I wonder! Or do I?


----------



## I Like Cheese

Seth Gecko said:


> Or do I?


i'm not sure??


----------



## Seth Gecko




----------



## martiw

munich and berlin are breathtaking. hats off to the germans, i have to admit those two stadiums alone put Celtic park to shame. I still love it though.


----------



## Kampflamm

The roof in Frankfurt will be closed for tomorrow afternoon's game between Togo and South Korea. Should be interesting to watch because temps are supposed to hit 30°C.


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

the roof in Frankfurt will be closed due to the Shadows on the pitch, at least they are doing something to correct the problem.


----------



## Durbsboi

The shadows dont affect the players that much! but it will be nice to have another world cup game indoors.


----------



## NavyBlue

I want to change my vote to Kaiserslautern :cheers:


----------



## Seth Gecko

NavyBlue said:


> I want to change my vote to Kaiserslautern :cheers:


The Kaiserslaughtern stadium is rubbish - bottom 3


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

After watching the Brazil Game i can't belive that in this modern age that the Berlin Olympic stadium will host the final with massive pillars in the stands to support the roof.


----------



## victory

Seth Gecko said:


> The Kaiserslaughtern stadium is rubbish - bottom 3


I think he was saying that after australia's comeback vicotry over Japan.

As for the stadium, it certainly is bootom 3 in terms of stadium quality, etc, but the thing has got lots of character and plenty of charm.

I wouldn't be too dissapointed if she was in my city.


----------



## Harkeb

They all look magnificent. It sure is a very high standard set for us South Africans, coming WC2010


----------



## Durbsboi

^^No its not, apart from Allianz, Dortmund & Berlin, the other stadiums are pretty avg, okay some have retractable roof's but that aint everything, doubt all of SA's stadiums will be better thatn Germanys but all their venues are not that grand.


----------



## Kampflamm

What do you mean by average? Do you want a revolving pitch and a special laser show during the game? Cologne looks beautiful and the roof with the pylons is something special. Mmost of the other venues are pretty good as well.


----------



## www.sercan.de

^^^
yes
show me similiar stadiums


----------



## Kampflamm

Pano from the Czech Republic v USA game


----------



## Mo Rush

Kampflamm said:


> Pano from the Czech Republic v USA game


thats awesome cape town will also have a retractable roof..


----------



## Durbsboi

Kampflamm said:


> What do you mean by average? Do you want a revolving pitch and a special laser show during the game? Cologne looks beautiful and the roof with the pylons is something special. Mmost of the other venues are pretty good as well.


No I dont mean they're rubbish or anything, Harkerb said that Germany will be a though act to follow, but the stadiums are not that fancy that SA cant build stadiums almost equal or equal to that of Germany. Thats all that I was trying to say. No harm intended


----------



## andy01090

Yesterday, Tunisia - Saudi Arabia in Munich


----------



## www.sercan.de

the attendance is always xy,000
why not for example 66,324 
only Dortmund,TNT-SWE, 62.959 and Leipzig, SER-NED, 37.216


----------



## MoreOrLess

andy01090 said:


> Yesterday, Tunisia - Saudi Arabia in Munich


I could certainly see alot of empty seats at that game, tickets the touts couldnt sell I expect.


----------



## christoph

All tickets were sold. But obviously not everybody attended the game. Germany was playing right after that game and ,frankly said, Tunesia-SaudiArabia did not promise to be too great.


----------



## www.sercan.de

0-75 min i did not saw empty seats
after, because of the Germany game, there werde many empty seats
10.000-15.000 maybe


----------



## C-Beam

Ivan Drago regarding the Berlin stadion which was built by the NAZIs said:


> I was under the impression...that the origins of the buildings and their history was a bit of a taboo subject among Germans, and very rarely - if ever - discussed?


Hitler is hardly taboo but rather a hype subject in Germany. You are constantly bombarded with it by the German media, even worse than the situation in the UK. Whenever you switch on German TV you have a 50+% chance to hit something like "Hitler's helpers", "Hitler's women", "Hitler's dog", "Hitler's favourite food", "Hitler's secret weapons", "Hitler's UFO bases", "Hitler's flight to the moon", "Hitler reloaded", "Hitler resurrection", etc... YAWN!


----------



## Kampflamm

Don't forget "Hitler's 99 barely legal tax tricks". 

Interestingly enough, English tv stations had to mention Nazi rallies in Nuremberg during the first game that was played there (Iran v Mexico). hno: Seriously, the city's like 1000 years old but all the English reporters could talk about was that this was the city of Nazi party rallies.


----------



## C-Beam

On topic:

Allianz Arena is without question the best football venue of the lot. Architecture-wise however I like Berlin better.


----------



## C-Beam

Kampflamm said:


> Interestingly enough, English tv stations had to mention Nazi rallies in Nuremberg during the first game that was played there (Iran v Mexico). hno: Seriously, the city's like 1000 years old but all the English reporters could talk about was that this was the city of Nazi party rallies.


I watched Sky News frequently in the recent days and they constantly reported about the legality or illegality of goose stepping, Hitler salutes, war references, etc. They even showed footage from the Zeppelinfeld in Nuremberg (where the NAZI rallies used to be held). The Hitler trauma obviously seems to be at the center of the English identity. I just hope their team doesn't forget to score about all those worries.


----------



## The Concerned Potato

a lot of the exteriors are quite cheap-looking IMO. my favourite stadium is Berlin. i'm not afan of the Allianz Arena, looks to plasticky for me, it lights up well though


----------



## Seth Gecko

SO! How are the touts circumventing the 'personalised ticket' anti-tout mechanism? 

Need answers quickstyle people... the Soc man is due to arrive in Germany at 5pm local time tomorrow! 

Is Germany ready?


----------



## 2zanzibar

Mo Rush said:


> thats awesome cape town will also have a retractable roof..


And what may I ask is so special about a retractable roof on a gloriously sunny day???? Oh, is it so the players can boil in a giant hot tub...or is to counter the shadows cast by that stupid tv box in the sky?

give me the shadows any day!


----------



## Mo Rush

2zanzibar said:


> And what may I ask is so special about a retractable roof on a gloriously sunny day???? Oh, is it so the players can boil in a giant hot tub...or is to counter the shadows cast by that stupid tv box in the sky?
> 
> give me the shadows any day!


it rains in cape town in june...wanna get wet?


----------



## Seth Gecko

2zanzibar said:


> And what may I ask is so special about a retractable roof on a gloriously sunny day???? Oh, is it so the players can boil in a giant hot tub...or is to counter the shadows cast by that stupid tv box in the sky?
> 
> give me the shadows any day!


If Emirates had a retractable roof you'd be spunking all over it


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

retractable roofs are overated


----------



## Kampflamm

Just like Peter Crouch. 

Impressive showing by the Swedish fans tonight.


----------



## Spank

ooooh the have a flare! Impressive!


----------



## Kampflamm

Actually I didn't really notice that but it is impressive to get it into a world cup stadium nonetheless with all the security precautions that have been taken.


----------



## GNU

Kampflamm said:


> Don't forget "Hitler's 99 barely legal tax tricks".
> 
> Interestingly enough, English tv stations had to mention Nazi rallies in Nuremberg during the first game that was played there (Iran v Mexico). hno: Seriously, the city's like 1000 years old but all the English reporters could talk about was that this was the city of Nazi party rallies.


Do you watch/receive english television?


----------



## eddyk

Kampflamm said:


> Just like Peter Crouch.
> 
> Impressive showing by the Swedish fans tonight.


Certainly showing alot of flare (flair)



:runaway:


----------



## GNU

Ok heres my opinion on the tournament so far.

I think that all stadiums apart from Hannover,Berlin and Stuttgart look pretty good on television.
I have to say that the colour schemes look much better in reality.

Im still a bit pissed that Stuttgart, as being the capital of Baden-Wuerttemberg couldnt come up with anything better than a renovated Gottlieb Daimler Stadion.
This is the typical swabian cheap solution. They just do whatever the FIFA demands as a minimum.
In my opinion they should have built something in the category of the DaLuz stadium.
Baden Wuerttemberg is one of the richest regions in the world and its just a shame that theres not a single propper fotball ground in the whole state.

Berlin on the other hand is ok, but Im dissapointed by the light concept. Theres clearly something wrong. Ive read an interview with the guy who installed the lights in the stadium and he thought its a great idea to light up the pitch whilst keeping the audience in the dark to create a theater experience. :bash: 
that may sound nice but the problem is that football doesnt have anything to do with theater at all.
The spectators are taking part in the game whereas the spectators in a theater are just "observing".
the result is a strange picture during night matches.
The TV picture somewhat looks darkish,greenish and bleak.
The audience seems to sit in the dark which gives the game a rather cold atmosphere.
the history of the stadium deosnt help here.
the lights in the roof are dimmed down to a minimum for whatever reason 
(maybe to save energy).
Instead they should light up the ranks to show the TV viewers the atmosphere instead of hiding the spectators away.
And the lights in the roof should be powered up to the maximum to give the stadium a warmer atmosphere aswell.

I hope that theyll make some changes there until the final.


----------



## skaP187

but maybe the atmosphere is great inside the stadium?


----------



## FCB_Flo

Kampflamm said:


> Actually I didn't really notice that but it is impressive to get it into a world cup stadium nonetheless with all the security precautions that have been taken.


The 'security precautions' are just a joke! I easily could have smuggled in some bottles of beer.

First i had to go through the body search. Therefore i had to put down my rucksack. After the body search i had to wait in a line of 5 peoples where your bag/rucksack will be checked (only the baggage, no body search). In this 1-2 minutes i could easily put some things out of my rucksack into my pockets.
They only took the 'detergent' for my contact lenses from me... What a weapon :gunz: 

But inside the stadium you can be sure, that the policemen probably can see EVERYTHING through their cameras


----------



## tv123

^^ i totally agree,we(TV viewers) need much more light


----------



## GNU

skaP187 said:


> but maybe the atmosphere is great inside the stadium?


Yes, maybe.
But its important to make the fans inside the stadium visible to the TV-audience, and the players.
right now they are just sitting in the dark.
I couldnt see anything unless the camera zoomed in for a closer look.

In other stadiums the stands have enough light. (For example in the SDF)
But here it just doesnt look right.

and I think its worrying that the guy responsible for the light scheme actually prides himself in his achievement.
He said something like: This is now one of a kind in the world. the lights can be used with great accuracy. the pitch can be filled with light whilst the spectators remain in the drak so to give them a theater experience. hno:


----------



## Kampflamm

Checker said:


> Do you watch/receive english television?


Yeah, all BBC channels are free to air or something like that but I also have a decoder to watch other British channels.


----------



## skaP187

Never thought I would say it, but when I saw Poland-Germany I realy liked the 'power'of that stadium. Impressive as massive, damn it is solid and it has a very good atmosfere I think because the 'rings'are very big. Nothing small about that stadium!


----------



## The Concerned Potato

Its AlL gUUd said:


> retractable roofs are overated



never thought i'd hear such a comment from someone who expereinces English weather


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

The Concerned Potato said:


> never thought i'd hear such a comment from someone who expereinces English weather


London's weather is pretty good actually


----------



## Kampflamm

Checker said:


> Yes, maybe.
> But its important to make the fans inside the stadium visible to the TV-audience, and the players.
> right now they are just sitting in the dark.
> I couldnt see anything unless the camera zoomed in for a closer look.
> 
> In other stadiums the stands have enough light. (For example in the SDF)
> But here it just doesnt look right.


I agree. The first time I saw the new stadium (DFB-Pokalfinale 04 between Bremen and Aachen) I thought that they hadn't installed the lighting yet.


----------



## rantanamo

tv123 said:


> ^^ i totally agree,we(TV viewers) need much more light


This is why I'm wondering if this broadcast is upconverted from EDTV or Pal resolution or if its true HD, which actually requires stadiums to upgrade the lighting to a certain level. The picture is soft in HD sometimes, and sometimes excellent. The first match from Allianz certainly looked much better than some of the others.


----------



## LMCA1990

I say Munich because of the Allianz Arena.


----------



## Loranga

rantanamo said:


> This is why I'm wondering if this broadcast is upconverted from EDTV or Pal resolution or if its true HD, which actually requires stadiums to upgrade the lighting to a certain level. The picture is soft in HD sometimes, and sometimes excellent. The first match from Allianz certainly looked much better than some of the others.


If I recall correctly, the whole World Cup 2006 is produced natively in 1080i. Abd yes, the lighting is upgraded.


----------



## Giorgio

One of my faves is actually Leipzig.
I think Allianz looks crap from the inside.


----------



## eddyk

I actually don't like Leipzig because I think it looks rubbish on the inside.

The Kaiserslautern stadium has really grown on me, I like it alot.

I love the huge stands that seem to just keep going and going.

Nuremberg is wicked aswell....so unusual.


----------



## SkyLerm

I think grey seats in the Allianz make it a bit crap, the same colour in all the stadium, I do not like it hno:
Leipzig is a bad Dragao stadium don't you think it? but it doesn't dislike me at all.


----------



## Giorgio

eddyk said:



> I actually don't like Leipzig because I think it looks rubbish on the inside.
> 
> The Kaiserslautern stadium has really grown on me, I like it alot.
> 
> I love the huge stands that seem to just keep going and going.
> 
> Nuremberg is wicked aswell....so unusual.


I agree with you on all points.
It looks bad inside.

Btw, Allianz was made to look simple inside and colourless...aparently the architect is inlove with football and wanted nothing to be distracting spectators from the beautiful game.


----------



## Mo Rush

dont mock leipzig i like leipzig...


----------



## The Concerned Potato

Mo Rush said:


> dont mock leipzig i like leipzig...



...aka COM stadium  :jk:


----------



## Irish Blood English Heart

Leipzig looks more like EL Drago, and Im a city fan!


----------



## Kampflamm

I dislike the rather high wall that surrounds the pitch in Leipzig. It's a nice stadium nonetheless, even though it looks a bit like a cheap copy of the Dragao stadium.


----------



## 2zanzibar

Kampflamm said:


> I dislike the rather high wall that surrounds the pitch in Leipzig. It's a nice stadium nonetheless, even though it looks a bit like a cheap copy of the Dragao stadium.


I agree, I think the Leipzig stadium is one of my favourites, but the high wall is a real shame; is there another stadium that has this also? it reminds me of US 94


----------



## Kampflamm

Gelsenkirchen has a fairly high wall as well.


----------



## Seth Gecko

I don't like the high elevations on the German stadiums either. There is space for seats, and people would no doubt buy them if they could, so the seats should be there. 

I've just been to Cologne (Koln), very nice place and lots of nice people there. (Including a group of Derby County fans who loved us, and excluding quite a few Czechs, they were nice enough before the Ghana game, but after they got their arses kicked they were all moaping around in a huff!) I'm not overly keen on FC Koln's stadium, but it is decent enough. I didn't manage to get a ticket for a game there sadly, but I was just happy to find a room in a hotel. 

Other impressive things there: the transport system = A+. The German beer was good, although the head on some pints was outrageous, the McD's was better than here, and that big Cethedral was awesome (and more than a little scary too!)










(Since this is an architecture forum I thought I'd post a pic I took, which doesn't do it justice. A trully awesome feat of architecture.)


----------



## GEwinnen

*---*

the wall in Gelsenkirchen is not so high, as you can see here:


----------



## flares

Berlin for me....but that's because I've just come back from Ukraine v Tunisia and seen it in the flesh. Shame it was such a poor game though.

Kaiserslauten looks good/quirky


----------



## Durbsboi

Irish Blood English Heart said:


> Leipzig looks more like EL Drago, and Im a city fan!


yep i dig Leipzig too


----------



## pompeyfan

Gelsenkirchen or Munich for me


----------



## GNU

GEwinnen said:


> the wall in Gelsenkirchen is not so high, as you can see here:



I think the wall is high. I dont understand really why they have this feature.
As somebody else mentioned already: there could be some seats instead.

That said I think the stadium looks still great. The wall has been covered with a nice colour scheme which really works.
I thought it would look crap but I have to say that it looks very good in reality.

In the Bundesliga however it doesnt look good as the whole wall is covered in advertisement.
(Maybe thats the reason for having such a wall.)

Another stadium with this feature would be the Ostseestadion in Rostock which has also been built by the dutch company HBM.


----------



## www.sercan.de

the wall is 3,30m high
http://www.veltins-arena.de/portrait_daten.php


----------



## www.sercan.de

average attendance is 51,070


----------



## Torch

how high is the wall in leipzig?


----------



## Nils

www.sercan.de said:


> the wall is 3,30m high
> http://www.veltins-arena.de/portrait_daten.php



But you have to add that the moveble pitch is about 2 meters above the base. so the wall is only approx. 1,5 meters high compared to the pitch level. this is a big difference to leipzig. when you see the stadium in tv it seems to be higher because from the place of the cam yo look into the ditch between the stands and the "pitch drawer"


----------



## www.sercan.de

oh, it doesn't really look like 1,5m 

Leipzig is ~4m


----------



## GNU

Nils said:


> But you have to add that the moveble pitch is about 2 meters above the base. so the wall is only approx. 1,5 meters high compared to the pitch level. this is a big difference to leipzig. when you see the stadium in tv it seems to be higher because from the place of the cam yo look into the ditch between the stands and the "pitch drawer"


dunno. it looks higher than 1.5 meters.
and have a look at the Ostseestadion. there the wall is just as high even though the stadium hasnt got a moveable pitch.(both stadiums were built by HBM)
It doesnt look good in the Ostseestadion and I have no idea why they have done it.


----------



## Nils

From time to time you can see pictures made by a cam at the sideline of the pitch. from this angle you can see that the top of the wall at the veltins arena / arena auf schalke is not more than 1,5 meters above the pitch. but of course the wall itself is higher (i said it before)


i haven't found better ones right now:








































(the small advertising board in front is 0.75m high)


----------



## GEwinnen

I took this photo from the first row (before Champions-League Final 2004), you can see that the stewart seems to be taller than the wall.

The wall in the Veltins Arena is 3,15 m high, the pitch construction is 1,35 high.


----------



## pompeyfan

Can we have another 400 messages deleted?????


----------



## Durbsboi

what wall?


----------



## GNU

Ive just read an interview on Stadionwelt with a floodlight expert of the dutch company Phillips which is the world leader in this segment.

He proves my point that I made earlier about the *failed light concept in the Olympiastadion.*



> *"Wie sieht diese Betonung aus?*
> 
> Zunächst hilft das Flutlicht natürlich, die Bühne, also das Spielfeld, besonders hervorzuheben. Alles andere gerät vergleichsweise in den Hintergrund. *Dennoch ist es uns sehr wichtig, auch die Zuschauer als Rahmen der Veranstaltung einzubeziehen. Unser Lichtkonzept ArenaVision beinhaltet daher die gezielte Beleuchtung auch der Ränge,* zwar nicht so hell wie den Rasen, aber ausreichend, um Choreographien, Fahnen und ganz allgemein die Stimmung im Stadion erkennen zu können. *Eine Entwicklung wie in Berlin, wo bei Flutlichtspielen im Fernsehen praktisch überhaupt keine Zuschauer mehr zu sehen sind, empfinden wir als den falschen Weg."*


http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_business/index.php?template=specials&action=interview

Thank god that there are people out there who have realized this mistake.
I still cannot believe that this light concept in Berlin was allowed in the first place.
Its so stupid for crying out loud.
Why would you want to hide the fans/stands?
Just shows how many incompetent people are out there who are being allowed to make such decisions.
I really hope that they have changed something for the wc final otherwise it would be highly embarrasing and more importnadly it wouldnt show Berlin in its best "light"
The picture will probably look starnge/cold and overall not firendly.


another interesting point he makes in the interview:



> *"Was zeichnet die Arena AufSchalke besonders aus?*
> *Zum Einen die eben angesprochene Zuschauerbeleuchtung.* Gerade wegen des verschließbaren Daches waren die Verantwortlichen auf Schalke *besonders darauf bedacht, beim Fußball keine typische Hallenbeleuchtung, also einen völlig abgedunkelten Zuschauerraum, zu präsentieren.* Die Schalker kamen von sich aus auf uns zu und baten darum, *gezielt auch die Ränge anzustrahlen, um den Stadioncharakter zu wahren. * Außerdem hat die Arena mit dem letztjährigen Champions League-Finale, natürlich unter Flutlicht, die höchste Weihe des europäischen Clubfußballs genossen – und bravourös bestanden."



It seems that they are better informed in Gelsenkirchen than they are in Berlin 

heres another interesting interview by the way:

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_business/index.php?template=specials&action=interview2


I will also try to find the interview with the guy who installed the light system in Berlin.


----------



## Giorgio

Berlin Looked lovely last night and it didnt look like fans where too far from the action.


----------



## Kampflamm

Yeah it was really a great setting for the final. Much better than the Allianz Arena IMO.


----------



## Giorgio

Yes it was.
Its such an elegant stadium...its beautiful. 

I could say its a 50 year old bowl with a roof...but thats just ignorant.


----------



## Judazzz

Although I love the technical ingenuity of the Allianz Arena and the sheer massiveness of the stadium in Dortmund (especially during league games, when it houses more than 15.000 additional spectators), it's not really a contest in my opinion: the Berlin Olympia Stadion is one of the most beautiful and graceful stadiums I have ever seen, and the recent renovation in preparation of the World Cup only made it more beautiful.


----------



## GNU

[Gioяgos] said:


> Berlin Looked lovely last night and it didnt look like fans where too far from the action.


Yes, it looked good yesterday.
The roof is superb and the camera shots/angles were good too.

However it could have been better.
The lights in the roof could have been stronger and the stands should have gotten more light too.
It was good on a whole but there was room for improvement.


----------



## Demetrius

Berlin by far.....Magnificent and Elegant, Simple and Imposing, of true Teutonic style.....Doric in its proportions.And what a history....in fact the stadium in Berlin IS history itself...Too bad after Jesse Owens that the French National team could not revive with a victory the answer humanity gives to totalitarian & racist thinkers around the world. Anyway, congrats to Italy, they "stole" the victory in a convincing manner, suitable to all the sterotypes the world has for the squadra azzura.

Allianz Arena: Perfectly balanced and tuned, like a German piece of engineering, yet with lack of character.Unlike most of the new Portuguese stadiums, for instance, as we experienced them in 2004. Still the future rests ahead for its own history to be written.

P.S. I really missed Munich Olympic Stadium......


----------



## skaP187

Demetrius said:


> P.S. I really missed Munich Olympic Stadium......


Why? I realy did not like that stadium (the roof was okay), but for the rest... tell me


----------



## Giorgio

skaP187 said:


> Why? I realy did not like that stadium (the roof was okay), but for the rest... tell me


The roof is part of the stadium....when will people learn?


----------



## Demetrius

skaP187 said:


> Why? I realy did not like that stadium (the roof was okay), but for the rest... tell me


Taste is subjective......Munich Olympic Complex has been one of the excellent architectural landmarks of modern time and the stadium is its most profound element, not to mention all the great football history moments that took place in it, i.e. WC 1974 or EC 1988 to mention just a couple.It definately has character, not to mention capacity: 72.000


----------



## Kampflamm

[Gioяgos] said:


> Yes it was.
> Its such an elegant stadium...its beautiful.
> 
> I could say its a 50 year old bowl with a roof...but thats just ignorant.


Is the Coliseum just a 2000 year old bowl (w/o a roof)?


----------



## Giorgio

Kampflamm said:


> Is the Coliseum just a 2000 year old bowl (w/o a roof)?


Lol.

I said it because thats what they all say when they critizise a stadium...

"Athens Olympic Stadium is a 20 year old bowl with a fancy roof"
"Stade de France is a bowl with a shiny roof"
"Munich Olympic Stadium is ugly but I like the roof"
"Olympiastadion is just a crappy bowl with a fucking aweseme elegant roof"

Its insanity!!

Btw, the Colliseum had a roof!


----------



## matherto

well, it's over, and despite all the complaints of it being too old and so on, I thought the Olympiastadion looked magnificent throughout the tournament, easily the most elegant stadium in Germany, despite all the complaints it's still a great stadium, and one of my favourites.

this tournament was great to be honest, and the stadiums were all excellent, well done Germany


----------



## MoreOrLess

Some of those tracking shots though the gap in the roof above the olympic flame were pretty amazing last night.


----------



## GNU

Another nice panorama pic:










(what is that tree doing there?)


----------



## GNU

More wikipedia pics from various stadiums 

Signal Iduna Park:


















































Fritz-Walter-Stadion:


























Commerzbank-Arena










Rhein-Energie-Stadion


----------



## GEwinnen

Checker said:


> Another nice panorama pic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (what is that tree doing there?)



Oak tree near main entrance (klick 1914)


----------



## Whoopee Cushion




----------



## panamaboy9016

*Hmm..*

I definitely loved the one in Berlin and Munich. They were both my favorite stadiums. Had no choice and voted for both of them and it comes out to be that they are both the most voted from you all. The Munich one especially, is gorgeous!


----------



## Wezza

Allianz Arena. It's a no brainer!!


----------



## mikeeagle

*Arenas of the Handball World Championship 2007 in Germany*

Not being a Handball fan myself this collection of arenas still impresses me. Around 320,000 tickets are for sale which will make it by far the biggest Handball World Championship ever. The tournament starts january 19 and ends february 4th 2007.

Capacity numbers are taken from the official DHB site and ( stadionwelt.de ) . The stadionwelt numbers are for Bundesliga matches I guess, but I decided to post both.
I linked the arena names to more pictures of the arenas where possible.

Kölnarena capacity: 19,000 (19,250)




















Mannheim - SAP ARENA capacity: 13,200 (14,500)




















Hamburg - Color Line Arena capacity: 12,500 (13,800)





























*Westfalenhalle Dortmund* capacity: 12,000




















Halle - Gerry Weber Stadion capacity: 11,000 (12,300)





























more...


----------



## mikeeagle

... and the rest of 'em:

Kiel - Ostseehalle capacity: 10,200 (10,250)




















Berlin - Max-Schmeling-Halle capacity: 10,000 (9,000)




















Bremen - AWD-Dome capacity: 9,200




















Magdeburg - Bördelandhalle capacity: 7,850 (8,789)




















*Stuttgart - Porsche Arena* capacity: 6,100











Lemgo - Lipperlandhalle capacity: 5,000











Wetzlar - Mittelhessen-Arena capacity: 5,000











Surprisingly Hannovers mighty Tui Arena (capacity 13,800) is not a site:




















The arenas are spread all over Germany, so everybody has a chance to watch some games.
:runaway:


----------



## 40Acres

Porsche deserves a better arena than that!


----------



## mikeeagle

40Acres said:


> Porsche deserves a better arena than that!


It's brandnew! Don't judge by size only. For a car company Porsche is small, too. But it's got quality and that's what I expect from the Porsche Arena. I could only find a photo of an unfinished arena from the inside.

Porsche Arena homepage (english)


----------



## th0m

Those are some nice looking venues for handball. Do you reckon it will sell out? I don't know how big the Handball WC is really.


----------



## mikeeagle

th0m said:


> Those are some nice looking venues for handball. Do you reckon it will sell out? I don't know how big the Handball WC is really.


100,000 tickets have already been sold.

In february 2004 a world record for an indoor game of (club) handball was set in the match between VfL Gummersbach and SC Magdeburg with 19,154 in the Kölnarena. 
This record was broken when TBV Lemgo met THW Kiel in front of 30,925 fans in the Veltins Arean auf Schalke in september 2004.

So I guess they won't have problems selling tickets. Some unattractive matchups might not sell out.
The Handball Bundesliga which is said to be the best league in the world these days is booming and set a new record with an average attendance of 4,575 last season. VfL Gummersbach had the highest with 10.500 per game followed by Kiel with 10.250.

Okay, now I know more about handball than ever before :cheer: . And I'm much more into football, icehockey and basketball...


----------



## Mo Rush

i like it but prefer the current design


----------



## G.C.

Perhaps they just didnt want a carbon clone of every other new ground being built.


----------



## Benn

Seating bowl is basically da Luz version 3 or 4.


----------



## G.C.

Exactly! Every ground built now is just a copy of it. Emirates, COMS, Wembley, Allianz to a certain extent and this new Anfield, are just a few examples of non-imaginative design.


----------



## Benn

I wouldn't say that Allianz or Wembley copy it so much beyond being large three teir bowls. I put Allianz up near the top for most boring looking stadium for sure. I don't think HKS has released the renders for the new anfield yet, but they are promising a big steep Kop end last I heard.


----------



## G.C.

I'm on about the renderes in the public domain atm, but no doubt the new ones will have a curve somewhere in an upper deck.


----------



## GNU

Mo Rush said:


> i like it but prefer the current design


Do you honestly think that this looks better?


----------



## GNU

G.C. said:


> Perhaps they just didnt want a carbon clone of every other new ground being built.


Why?
Back then there was no Da Luz, Allianz or Emirates stadium.
The stadium in Cologne would have been one of the first of its kind in europe.
(Construction on the current stadium began in the beginning of 2002, and was finished in 2004)

Btw, the stadium has cost 119,5 Mio. Euro.
Thats quite a big sum for such a thing.


----------



## Mo Rush

Checker said:


> Do you honestly think that this looks better?


Yes, the other design is boring. It doesn't fit into the surrounds at all. Its just wrapped in that fancy glass which might be impressive to some but not to me.
I love the simplicity of the current design. The tall structures which rise from each corner. The lego like facade which is quite cool at night and the way in which the roof sort of hovers above the stadium.


----------



## GNU

My opinion is that a three tier stadium is just way better than a two tier one.
The design of the stadium is also outdated imo.
It should have resembled the classical english football ground.
However nobody in England is building these kind of stadiums anymore.
The exterior is also a bit bland imo and looks cheap.
A glass facade like in Dudlers proposal would have looked much more modern and sophisticated.
I also think that the stadium would have fitted well into the surroundings.
It has a lot of presence.
However it might have gotten a bit dark inside.


----------



## Irish Blood English Heart

I really like the existing stadium but it is too small, they sell out in the 2nd league. Are they going to add another tier anytime soon or will this be impossible? A 3rd tier on the main stand for an extra 7000 seats is needed I think.


----------



## GNU

yeah the stadium is way too small.
another reason why the current desing was wrong.
I dont think that any further expansions are being planned though.


----------



## Benn

G.C. said:


> I'm on about the renderes in the public domain atm, but no doubt the new ones will have a curve somewhere in an upper deck.


I see your point, but curving the sides up is quite common, the end lines comming up as sharp as they do a the da Luz and Emirates is what makes them so similar. They are virtual carbon copies. The upper deck in plan at those two is an exact elipse with the lower two be rounded in the corners and fairly strait along the side and end lines. Where as wembley and Allianz just round a little more on the side lines of the upper teir. These are definately in the same general family of large new abstract stadiums. I hate Allianz, mostly because it replaced, in my opinion the most beautiful stadium yet built. Emirates has a cool exterior, but the lower teir is way to shallow and the bowl is a basically the Da Luz. Which has a better bowl but a very utilitarian facade. Wembley a little dissapointing. I think that is mostly because because it is the most expensive ever built, and being Wembley if HOK did not deliver the best stadium in the world it would be dissipointing. i would hate to have to design a stadium with the bar set that high, because people will be by default dissapointed. You do have a point with the old stanley park proposal, although I definately liked it better than the afore mentioned facilities.


----------



## Sparks

The orginal Emirates Stadium design had been around since 2000.


----------



## carlspannoosh

This is a very smart stadium. I think it looks the business both inside and out. Quite a bit better than the other one.In fact one of the best new stadiums in Europe. Very cool.The terraced bit makes it look a bit half finished though.


----------



## michał_

Another Cologne design here , but this one isn't shown too much. From what I see here I still think the one that was built was far best of all bids.


----------



## Wezza

I actually like the current Cologne stadium. It's a bit kooky, but still cool at the same time. The other proposal is basically Emirates on the inside with a different facade outside.


----------



## skaP187

The stadium they have now, is a real football stadium, I prefer the present one every day.
Specialy the roof of the other design makes it a basketballarena...
from the inside it is a copy from the Emirates/ da Luz. No I prefer the one they have now any day. Maybe they can make it a bit bigger in the future...
but they play second division at the moment, so I think there is no need for that at the present time.


----------



## IcyUrmel

I followed the discussions about the Cologne WC Stadium from its very beginning, and I always prefered the Option which was finally realized. I just think it is the most beautiful, the most classical and the best fitting option of all.

- the "Abel-Bauten", the buildings behind the north stand, which had to be involved in the new construction, are straight, "square" (do you say so?). The stadium is the same, the one checker would have favoured is totally round.

- I like the idea of real "ends". Two stands, partly separated from the rest of the stadium, for two opposing fan groups.

- I love the light coloumns carrying the roof. They look smart at light and brilliant at night.

- The actual roof is perfect for a natural grass pitch. It covers the spectators and nothing else. So it lets as much light in as possible. In the project Checker prefers, the roof is curved and therefore covers big areas of the field. This means less rain, less sunlight ans less fresh air for the pitch!

- Also a "closed" glass fassade would have caused big problems for the pitch. The grass needs as much of air circulation as possible. The realised design takes care about this demand and offers five major "air tunnels" in and between the stands.

- The option preferred by Checker would have been far more expensive. This is what you see immediately when looking at the renderings, and this is what I saw when studying the proposals years ago. Checker, if you like, search for the figures in the former forum of Stadionwelt (2004800.homepagemodules.de). The model you like so much would have been a little bit bigger, but just unaffordable.


For me, the RheinEnergieStadion in is actual version was the best choice by far. For aesthetical, financial and technical reasons. And I never understood the euphoric statements about the "Colosseum" model.


----------



## www.sercan.de

hi urmel
i didn't know you were also here 

- IMO the current one was easier to built in 4 parts (which was a requirement)


----------



## IcyUrmel

www.sercan.de said:


> hi urmel
> i didn't know you were also here


Seldom, dear Sercan. Very seldom.



www.sercan.de said:


> - IMO the current one was easier to built in 4 parts (which was requirement)


Fine. Another point I should have added to my list.


----------



## www.sercan.de

why?
many old stadionwelt guys are here 


BTW is a 3rd tier possible?


----------



## GNU

skaP187 said:


> Maybe they can make it a bit bigger in the future...
> but they play second division at the moment, so I think there is no need for that at the present time.


They sell out all the time in the second division.
So its even too small for that.
Cologne is a big city and the stadium is just not appropriate size-wise.
I dont have any idea how they would ever manage to enlarge the thing.
Stupidly they have left out the corners which will make it very difficult like in Dortmund.

I also wonder why the stadium was so expensive.
The stands are being held up by concrete pilons.
There isnt a real glass exterior.
Its the cheapest way of building stands really.
So on what was all the money spent?


----------



## Wezza

Can they remove the roof & add another tier, then replace the roof? (If the foundations are strong enough that is!)


----------



## www.sercan.de

Checker said:


> They sell out all the time in the second division.
> So its even too small for that.
> Cologne is a big city and the stadium is just not appropriate size-wise.
> I dont have any idea how they would ever manage to enlarge the thing.
> Stupidly they have left out the corners which will make it very difficult like in Dortmund.
> 
> I also wonder why the stadium was so expensive.
> The stands are being held up by concrete pilons.
> There isnt a real glass exterior.
> Its the cheapest way of building stands really.
> So on what was all the money spent?


maybe because it was built in 4 parts?


----------



## GNU

www.sercan.de said:


> maybe because it was built in 4 parts?


the Commerzbank arena was also built in 4 parts.
Its also bigger and looks more sophisticated imo. 
The stadium in Frankfurt has cost 126 million compared to 119,5 million that the Rhein-Energy stadium has cost.


----------



## GNU

Wezza said:


> Can they remove the roof & add another tier, then replace the roof? (If the foundations are strong enough that is!)


Maybe.
but then the "futuristic" desing would collapse.
theyve also left out the corners which will make any expansion quite difficult.


----------



## Rohne

Checker said:


> the *Waldstadion* was also built in 4 parts.
> Its also bigger and looks more sophisticated imo.
> The stadium in Frankfurt has cost 126 million compared to 119,5 million that the *Müngersdorfer Stadion* has cost.


:bash:


----------



## www.sercan.de

according to my stadionwelt magazine frankfurts costs 188 mil euro?!?


----------



## GNU

www.sercan.de said:


> according to my stadionwelt magazine frankfurts costs 188 mil euro?!?


no thats with infrastructure costs.
In both cases (Cologne and Frankfurt) I have left out the infrastructure costs.


----------



## Stockholm_Rovers

Cologne's capacity is about right, maybe 60000 would be better but that would be the max. In division 2 they averaged 41900 this year which is very good but is still 8500 short of capacity. The previous year they sold out most their games in the top division...but Cologne have been shite for about 20 years, so the stadium designers probably took this into account as Cologne are always bouncing between the 2 divisions. Funnily enough, Cologne are now vastly inferior to their rivals Bayer Leverkusen and have been for about 15 years. Bayer Leverkusen have a very small stadium (lovely stadium though, 22500 capacity) yet have enjoyed far more success recently than Cologne (including a Champions League final that they came close to winning).


----------



## Irish Blood English Heart

yeah but they have Bayer's money to spend. Cologne are the real fans club.


----------



## Stockholm_Rovers

I don't see how having money makes you any less of a club?? If that's the case then half the Premiership are not real clubs because they get loads of money from big companies like Sky etc.


----------



## Benjuk

I went to 5 of the world cup stadiums last year - and Cologne was my favourite. It was the only one that felt like a football stadium rather than a sporting venue. The four stands made it feel like an old ground but the facilities and the space (especially the legroom and rake of the stands) was distinctly modern. The best of both worlds.

The alternative plan looks impressive, but as has been said elsewhere, it's not all that different to half the new stadiums going up in Europe over the last few years.


----------



## Rohne

Stockholm_Rovers said:


> Bayer Leverkusen have a very small stadium (lovely stadium though, 22500 capacity) yet have enjoyed far more success recently than Cologne (including a Champions League final that they came close to winning).


Ever been to this piece of crap? Leverkusen's stadium sucks. And together with Munich and Wolfsburg the worst supporters in the Bundesliga.
I don't like Cologne, but i wish they were in the first league instead of Leverkusen.
Concerning the stadium design: i don't like it very much, especially the open corners. I like ovals (like our Waldstadion) much more. But it's ok. No need for the alternative plan.


----------



## GNU

Stockholm_Rovers said:


> Bayer Leverkusen have a very small stadium (lovely stadium though, 22500 capacity) yet have enjoyed far more success recently than Cologne (including a Champions League final that they came close to winning).


Yeah, the Bayarena will be expanded at the end of this year to around 30,000-35,000.


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## IcyUrmel

www.sercan.de said:


> BTW is a 3rd tier possible?


I would say: NO! The stadium is "finished", all foundations, the roof, the accesses, the infrastructure, it was ll planned and constructed for 45.000 seats or 50.000 Bundesliga Fans.
Of course, impossible is nothing, but the expenses for maybe 10.000 additional seats would be horrifying.

The biggest Problem might be the roof which is a kind of "balanced" construction, just hanging like a suspension bridge. If you increase the roof's weight at its ends, I don't know if it might collapse, but I'm quite sure this balance would be disturbed.


When they planned the stadium, i suppose they just dis not expect this increase of interest in German football. The same problem they have in Hamburg and Schalke, partly also in Frankfurt and Munich. 50.000 like in Cologne sounded pretty much and definitely enough for decades, but know (as the stadium turns out to be such a beauty), they discover that 5.000 additional seats would have been a good investment.

Too late, bad luck. But could we expect this attendance boom? I really always was an optimistic guy, but THIS was even beyond my imagination. And I did not have to invest hundreds of Millions in stadia without knowing whether they might be too big in a few years. They had to make their decition, they had to pay for it immediately, and they had to take the risk of miscalculations at that time.

Just one figure: in the 2000/01 season, at the time the people in Cologne hat to decide about the reconstruction, cologne attracted an average attendance of 34.251, according to european-football-statistics.co.uk. Not the match against Bayern Munich was sold out, nor were the derbies against Leverkusen, Schalke or Dortmund.

Would anyone - at this time - have expected building "only" a 50.000-stadium could be a missed chance?


----------



## Benn

Rohne said:


> Ever been to this piece of crap? Leverkusen's stadium sucks. And together with Munich and Wolfsburg the worst supporters in the Bundesliga.
> I don't like Cologne, but i wish they were in the first league instead of Leverkusen.
> Concerning the stadium design: i don't like it very much, especially the open corners. I like ovals (like our Waldstadion) much more. But it's ok. No need for the alternative plan.


Yes its small, and the supporters aren't especially vocal (especially compared to places like Hamburg), but I really like the BayArena. The sightlines are phenominal and the legroom is good enough and everyone is very close to the pitch. I wish some of the MLS teams had/would use a plan like this for a model.


----------



## GNU

IcyUrmel said:


> When they planned the stadium, i suppose they just dis not expect this increase of interest in German football. The same problem they have in Hamburg and Schalke, partly also in Frankfurt and Munich.


Yeah, the same old problem.....:bash: 
This is what happens if you take into the account the average viewing figure that you get in a rathole like the Müngersdorfer stadion, and then think that in a brand new arena the attendance will be the same.
Simply stupid....




> 50.000 like in Cologne sounded pretty much and definitely enough for decades, but know (as the stadium turns out to be such a beauty), they discover that 5.000 additional seats would have been a good investment.


They could sell out 60,000 on many league matches in the first league if not way more...



> Too late, bad luck. But could we expect this attendance boom?


Yes absolutely.
I was one of them.
I always thought that Munich, Frankfurt, Cologne and Schalke (although to a lesser degree should have invested a bit more to make sure that they really come with a good cap.
I also remember a discussion that I had in the Stadionwelt Forum.
I stated that 50,000 is just not enough for Werder.
they need a proper 60k ground.
For that statement I was instantly heavily attacked by people who honestly think that 50k is way enough simply because of the average viewing figures that they get now.
Well, wake the hell up is my response. Look around.
Right now they are playing in an unattractive athletics bowl.
Its just common sense that the attendance will go up dramatically once theyll play in a proper football stadium.
But no-one would listen.
Instead of using common sense the stadium planners have used mathematical calculations to figure out the future attendances.
Big mistake.....



> I really always was an optimistic guy, but THIS was even beyond my imagination.


Why?
Cologne is a city with a million inhabitants.
Hamburg has around 2,5 million.
Just take a look at what stadiums are being built in other countries for that sort of city size.
The brits imo are fa more optimistic in this department.
And rightfully so.
We are just too bloody pessimistic.
Btw: Ive also stated that Bayer should built itself atleast a 40-43k stadium.
What response did I get in Stadionwelt?
People were claiming that I had no idea of what I was talking about......


----------



## IcyUrmel

Checker said:


> Btw: Ive also stated that Bayer should built itself atleast a 40-43k stadium.
> What response did I get in Stadionwelt?
> People were claiming that I had no idea of what I was talking about......


To be honest: I also and still think that 50.000 is a good size for Bremen and 30.000 for Leverkusen.

Bremen - realistcally - would have no chance to increase the stadium at its current site to more than the 50.000. Propably not financially, maybe not even technically, but mainly not politically. The protest of the neighbours was massive and could only be calmed down by the very "correct" way the club planned and announced the new stadium. For a 60.000-people-staduim there would not have been any chance for any agreement with the neighbours and therefore no bigger stadium at all. At least not at this site.
Besides that, I don't think Werder Bremen has the fan base for *regularily *selling out a 60.000-people-stadium. And adding seats on the top of a stadium of this size is just fucking expensive (huge ans complex supporting constructions, static needs, a bigger and higher roof, more parkings, better infrastructure, etc.), so it can only pay if you really sell them regularily. If you sell the seats number 50.001 to 60.000 only in six or eight, in good years maybe ten matches a season, you will never get your investments in return.


And Leverkusen with 40.000 seats even makes less sense. Did you have a closer look on the crowds in the last years? I was there personally three times last season (on company tickets, I would never pay for this), and in all those matches, the stadium was "sold out", but not full. You always see hundrets, if not even a thousand of those green plastic seats. The interest in Bayer Leverkusen playing football is just not big enough to fill a 40k-stadium. Even the 30k-BayArena won't be sold out very often. I am absolutely sure about this.


----------



## GNU

The Bayarena in Leverkusen will be enlarged to 30k until 2009.
Cost: 56 million Euros










































Video

Shame that they still want to put up that ugly Bayer cross. hno:
The exterior doesnt convince me either.


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## Kampflamm

What about the shadows? Wouldn't there be massive BAYER shadows on the field similar to what you're seeing in Schalke or Frankfurt?


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## GNU

Kampflamm said:


> What about the shadows? Wouldn't there be massive BAYER shadows on the field similar to what you're seeing in Schalke or Frankfurt?


Sure, and thats why I wonder why they want to put it up in the first place.


----------



## GNU

Construction progress in Bielefeld:


----------



## lpioe

^^
What's will be the new capacity?


----------



## GNU

^^ around 28k (going up from 26,5k) So it wont be a big change.

New renders from Radio Bremen for the new Weserstadion:

http://www.radiobremen.de/galerien/index.php?uga=32&pid=1

Aparently they are still planning to turn it into a pure football arena although that will happen in another renovation later.

http://s5.directupload.net/images/071120/z5b7e9ol.jpg


----------



## Mo Rush

GNU said:


> The Bayarena in Leverkusen will be enlarged to 30k until 2009.
> Cost: 56 million Euros
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video
> 
> Shame that they still want to put up that ugly Bayer cross. hno:
> The exterior doesnt convince me either.


London 2012 Olympic stadium twin.


----------



## GNU

Slightly redesigned exterior of the new stadium in Aachen:










The Echo Arena in Liverpool has been opened:










Construction pics from the Schüco-Arena in Bielefeld:



















Video on BayerTV showing the demolition works at the Bayarena:

http://www.bayer04.de/B04/de/_md_ba...E6BACC-8B63-4602-98C6-296DF3F8502F-620&id=880


----------



## Kampflamm

*GERMANY - Stadia and Arena Development News*

Hoffenheim, the home of football.














































^^ these pics are from December btw.


----------



## GNU

New southern stand in St.Pauli










Looks too messy for my taste since they seem to have incorporated a wall between the standing areas and the seats.


----------



## Kampflamm

Hoffenheim!


----------



## GNU

some more pics from Bielefeld:


----------



## lpioe

Kampflamm said:


> Hoffenheim!


Will it have terraces?


----------



## GNU

*GERMANY - Stadia and Arena Development News*

Just noticed that the SAP-arena seems to be getting those huge walls around the pitch aswell :no:


----------



## Carrerra

GNU said:


> Just noticed that the SAP-arena seems to be getting those huge walls around the pitch aswell :no:


GNU, does SAP Arena host football matches? As far as I know it hosts handball or other indoor sports...


----------



## GNU

Carrerra said:


> GNU, does SAP Arena host football matches? As far as I know it hosts handball or other indoor sports...


youre right.
sorry my bad, its actually called the TSG-Arena. 
the SAP arena would be in Mannheim:


----------



## Axelferis

i don't like the "huge walls" that a lot of germans stadiums have!! :bash:
who decided such stupid idea??


----------



## Patrick

*GERMANY - Stadia and Arena Development News*

Hi people! I'd like to present you the stadiums of this year's 2nd league football teams. Which do you like and which are awful?










the order is similar to the current place in the table (8th of April 2008)

_Team name, Stadium name (sponsor name), year built (latest renovation), city
Capacity: all (standing room capacity + seats); all-seater on international games
|city location|team logo|
|airview|
|cladding|
|inside filled|
|inside empty|
additional information and link_

Borussia VfL 1900 Mönchengladbach, Borussia-Park, 2004, Mönchengladbach
Capacity: 54067 (16145 + 37922); 46249









































TSG 1899 Hoff€nh€im, Di€tmar-Hopp-Stadion, 1999 (2007), Sinsheim
Capacity: 6350 (3350 + 3000)
















a new stadium is under construction, completion in 2009, capacity 30500

1. FSV Mainz 05, Stadion am Bruchweg, 1929 (2002), Mainz
Capacity: 20300 (9900 + 10400)

































a new stadium is planned, completion in 2010, capacity 35000

1. FC Köln, Müngersdorfer Stadion (RheinEnergieStadion), 2004, Köln (Cologne)
Capacity: 50374 (9168 + 41206); 46134









































SpVgg Greuther Fürth, Stadion am Ronhofer Weg (Playmobil-Stadion), 1910 (2007), Fürth
Capacity: 15500 (6000 + 9500)









































SC Freiburg, Dreisamstadion (badenova-Stadion), 1953 (2004), Freiburg
Capacity: 25000 (10500 + 14500)









































SV Wehen 1926 Taunusstein, (BRITA-Arena), 2007, Wiesbaden
Capacity: 12566 (5800 + 6766)
































if the club stays in the upper leagues, a new stadium may be built within the next 5 years

TuS Koblenz 1911, Stadion Oberwerth, 1936 (2007), Koblenz
Capacity: 15000 (7772 + 7428)








































a new stadium is planned, no further informations

Aachener TSV Alemannia 1900, Tivoli, 1928 (2004), Aachen
Capacity: 21300 (17600 + 3700)








































a new stadium is planned, completion in 2009, capacity 32900

TSV 1860 München, (Allianz-Arena), 2005, München (Munich)
Capacity: 69901 (13769 + 56132); 66000









































FC St. Pauli von 1910, Stadion am Millerntor, 1963 (under renovation now), Hamburg
Capacity: 22650 (12684 + 7966)








































the stadium is under renovation now, the capacity will be extended to 27000 in 2010

FC Augsburg, Rosenaustadion, 1951 (2006), Augsburg
Capacity: 31300 (24872 + 6428)
































a new stadium is under construction now, completion in 2011, capacity 49000

VfL 1899 Osnabrück, Stadion an der Bremer Brücke (Osnatel-Arena), 1931 (under renovation now), Osnabrück
Capacity: 18415 (15776 + 2639)








































the stadium is under renovation now, new seats will replace some standing places, the capacity will shrink to 16250

Offenbacher FC Kickers 1901, Stadion am Bieberer Berg, 1921 (2005), Offenbach
Capacity: 25200 (18500 + 6700)









































1. FC Kaiserslautern, Fritz-Walter-Stadion, 1920 (2006), Kaiserslautern
Capacity: 50754 (18617 + 32137); 48500









































FC Erzgebirge Aue, Erzgebirgsstadion, 1928 (2004), Aue
Capacity: 16350 (6200 + 10150)

































FC Carl Zeiss Jena, Ernst-Abbe-Sportfeld, 1928 (2007), Jena
Capacity: 15610 (6038 + 9572)

































SC Paderborn 07, Hermann-Löns-Stadion, 196X, Paderborn
Capacity: 12000 (8396 + 3604)
























a new stadium is under construction, completion in 2008, capacity 15000


----------



## NeilF

The stadium in Koln is an obvious favourite but for some reason, I also really like the current Alemannia stadium.


----------



## Cebolinha

Borussia-Park and Müngersdorfer Stadion are the best!! sure!


----------



## Samacado

Patrick said:


>


looks like a castle from lord of the rings in middle earth.

towers, flags = middle age :-D They just should add some drawbridges and a moat with gators, where they can push the visitor's supporters in. :lol:


----------



## GNU

Bielefeld:


----------



## Carrerra

GNU said:


> Bielefeld:


Is this a renovation of the old stadium? If so what happens to the capacity?


----------



## GNU

No its just a new stand 

http://www.stadionwelt.de/neu/sw_stadien/index.php?folder=sites&site=neubau_d_detail&id=53

some pics of the new stand in St.Pauli:


----------



## Carrerra

Isn't there any increase in the overall capacity? Just the modernization of the stand?


----------



## GNU

The cap will increase from 26,6k to around 28k. 
On this pic you can see the old stand (the small one) which now has been replaced:


----------



## Carrerra

GNU said:


> The cap will increase from 26,6k to around 28k.
> On this pic you can see the old stand (the small one) which now has been replaced:


I can't believe the replacement will cause only 1.4K increase. Supposing that the new stand is as tall as the other stand next to it, it looks like the stadium will get at least more than 3K seats additionally. 

You said the capacity before the replacement is 26.6K. Considering the stadium capacity, each touchline stand can hold at least 8,000 people because it is much longer than endline stands, which implies it's capacity is much bigger than a "simple mean" of the each stand - in this case 6.7K(=26.6K/4)


----------



## lpioe

^^ old stand was probably terraces.


----------



## GNU

Yes it was.
The new stand on the other hand will have 6.722 seats.


----------



## Kampflamm

Hoffenheim webcam










Looking good...


----------



## GNU

the new Tivoli of Alemannia Aachen. now uc


----------



## www.sercan.de

Like Hoffenheim IMO

The best 25-30k new german stadiums are IMO Duisburd and Wolfsburg

Bielefeds one became now a very good one with the new stand.


----------



## GNU

They put the stands right on pitch level in Bielefeld which is a good thing.
In Aachen it looks acceptable too (cant say for sure though). The new stadium in Sinsheim has a great exterior but the high walls which separate the stands from the pitch somewhat spoil the overall design.


----------



## Carrerra

GNU said:


> the new Tivoli of Alemannia Aachen. now uc


What's the capacity? Is this renovated from the old Tivoli or newly builit in its place? And when did the construction start and when is it expected to complete?


----------



## GNU

@ Carrera

Its a newly built stadium, just round the corner from the old one.
Construction started on the 17th of May and it will be finished to the start of the 09/10 season. It will have a cap of 32.900.


----------



## GNU

Lets hope so. The Bundesliga needs more 60k+ stadiums.
Seems to me that were usually a bit too conservative with future cap. estimations. Meanwhile the premier league is beefing up its stadium infrastructure.


----------



## Carrerra

Fantastic stadiums
Affordable ticket prices
Nearly 40,000 of average attendance

Anyway I think German Bundesliga is a ultimate target all domestic leagues on earth should go for. I hope I could see that in Korea before I die hno:hno:hno:


----------



## Kampflamm

Hoffenheim























































What are they gonna do with the seats behind the luxury boxes? Or will this space be used for something else?


----------



## www.sercan.de

maye for blind fans?


----------



## Kampflamm

Awesome gif animation of progress made in Hoffenheim over the last 2 weeks.


----------



## krudmonk

I really like Koln's facility, but they have the benefit (in one sense) of being a bigger city in the lower tier*. Freiburg certainly has the best views, though.

*EDIT: I forgot they were just promoted.


----------



## thun

@ Patrick:
Btw. The new Impuls Arena will be opened in May 2009 and have place for 30,000 fans.
The 48,000 you posted are the planned second step, but as far as I know it's not yet decided to build it.


----------



## Benjuk

Great stuff. Looking at some of the stadiums in the country, I'm stunned that Nurenberg's ground was used in 2006. Possibly the best example of a venue being chosen for it's location rather than the stadium itself.


----------



## Indiana Jones

Westfalen Stadion - big focus on atmosphere, maybe my favorite stadium in the world. Brilliant, cozy design. I would love to attend a game there.


----------



## Carrerra

As far as I konw southern stand of Westfalen Stadion is the biggest single stand in the world beyond Europe. Can anyone confirm it?


----------



## Patrick

that is right. the old Kop WAS bigger (in capacity), though.

and thun: it's SV Waldhof, not SG


----------



## Patrick

i will continue with the 20 stadia of the *3rd league* / 3. Liga:

Kickers Offenbach FC, Stadion am Bieberer Berg (26,500)

















FC Erzgebirge Aue, Erzgebirgsstadion (16,500)

















SC Paderborn 07, Paragon-Arena (15,300)

















FC Carl Zeiss Jena, Ernst-Abbe-Sportfeld (15,610)

















Fortuna Düsseldorf, LTU-Arena (51,500)

















1. FC Union Berlin, Stadion an der Alten Försterei (18,100)

























SV Werder Bremen II, Weserstadion Platz 11 (5,500)

















Wuppertaler SV Borussia, Stadion am Zoo (18,000 due to renovation, usually 28,300)

















FC Rot-Weiß Erfurt, Steigerwaldstadion (20,000)

















SG Dynamo Dreden, Rudolf-Harbig-Stadion (23,767 before renovation; 32,770 after renovtion)

























BSV Kicker Emden, Embdena-Stadion (7,200)

















TSV Eintracht Braunschweig, Stadion an der Hamburger Straße (23,500)

















SV Stuttgarter Kickers, Gazi-Stadion auf der Waldau (11,544)

















VfR Aalen, Waldstadion (11,183)

















SV Sandhausen, Hardtwaldstadion (10,600)

















SpVgg Unterhaching, Generali-Sportpark (15,053)

















SV Wacker Burghausen, Wacker-Arena (now 7,750; in the pic it was 12,000)

















FC Bayern München II, Stadion an der Grünwalder Straße (21,272)

















SSV Jahn Regenburg, Jahnstadion (10,724)

















VfB Stuttgart II, same stadium Stuttgarter Kickers


----------



## mbuildings

JUST STUNNING !!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## dudu24

Is this stadium where Bayern 2 plays the same stadium where 1860 used to play when they got relegated? (When Bayern 1st team was still on Olypiastadion) ?


----------



## Patrick

yes, it is. the second team of 1860 still plays there, too. this stadium is said to be the most used one in germany with around 80 games per year.


----------



## leomarques

GREAT STADIUMS

what I like most in german's stadiums are the standing areas.
And what I like most of standing areas is that they can be turned into seating areas!!
It's genial.
For bundesliga games the entusiastic supporters stay on the standing area which maximize the stadium capacity.
For UEFA games the standing are converted to seats!!!!
I JUST LOVE IT!!


----------



## GEwinnen

Benjuk said:


> Great stuff. Looking at some of the stadiums in the country, I'm stunned that Nurenberg's ground was used in 2006. Possibly the best example of a venue being chosen for it's location rather than the stadium itself.



Nuremberg is a very exciting city in Germany and it was the second host city in the important federal state of Bavaria, for that they accepted the "poor" stadium of Nuremberg.


----------



## GEwinnen

Iain1974 said:


> I love the Westfalen Stadion.
> 
> For me it defines what a football stadium is there for. While I would not dispute that the Allianze Arena is superior in many respects, for me many of the newer facilities are a little too clinical. I like my football a little more 'earthy'.


The Signal Iduna Park (the correct name of this thing) is completely overrated.
The facilities are realy old or too small for the crowd. 
The lengendary emotions on the south stand are history!


----------



## dudu24

Bulshit, its far better than some random bowl like Allianz Arena.


----------



## Patrick

GEwinnen said:


> The Signal Iduna Park (the correct name of this thing) is completely overrated.
> The facilities are realy old or too small for the crowd.
> The lengendary emotions on the south stand are history!


**** the "correct" names!


----------



## Irish Blood English Heart

I think Bundesliga stadiums slightly beat the Premiership, especcially in architectural terms. However the 3rd league stadiums in England are miles better then the equivilent in Germany (except Dusseldorf). Is all the support and money in German football concentrated towards the top league teams?


----------



## Iain1974

Irish Blood English Heart said:


> However the 3rd league stadiums in England are miles better then the equivilent in Germany (except Dusseldorf).


A few years ago I posted 2 threads with 2nd and 3rd division English stadiums. Perhaps someone with broadband could do an updated version?


----------



## Irish Blood English Heart

If no one has by the time the game is over then I will


----------



## Iain1974

Irish Blood English Heart said:


> If no one has by the time the game is over then I will


Thanks. I'd do it myself but I'm on a satellite connection. It'll be very interesting.


----------



## thun

The German third league (as 3. Liga) will start in its first season, keep that in mind. Until this year, the third division was formed by two semi-professional regional leagues (Regionalliga Nord and Regionalliga Süd). We'll have to see how it will develop.

The Grünwalder Staion (of Bayern II) is legendary. It was the home of Bayern before the opening of the Olympiastadion, too. And it still is in the hearts of the lion fans (TSV 1860) more favoured than the Allianz Arena will ever be.


Patrick, thank you for presenting the third league. I would have been too lazy to do that. 



@ Benjuk:
Regarding your opinion about Nuremberg, that's way more true for Leipzig! The citys club plays in the fourth league, and they've just choosen the city because they needed at least one in Eastern Germany and built a stadium that's not needed at all.
Nevertheless I'm planning to present the Zentralstadion in a few days because I actually like it quite much.


----------



## lpioe

*DRESDEN - Rudolf-Harbig-Stadion (32,770)*

Reconstruction of Rudolf-Harbig-Stadion (Dynamo Dresden):


















Very steep stands 

More here.


----------



## Carrerra

I can't believe that this is used by 4th division club. Stadia infrastructure of Germany always stunnes me, especially those of lower leagues. 

4th division stadiums in Germany >>> 1st division stadiums in Italy


----------



## Kampflamm

Dresden is actually playing in the new 3rd division.


----------



## dudu24

And it also has pretty big fanbase.


----------



## Kampflamm

Hoffenheim:


----------



## Carrerra

Hoffenheim arena has the larger capacity than the population there, right?


----------



## Kampflamm

Sinsheim (where the stadium will be built, Hoffenheim is just a borough of Sinsheim) has a population of 35,368, so the stadium will be slightly smaller.


----------



## Zeno2

berkshire royal said:


> I really hope they keep that stand behind the goal with 2 tiers of exec boxes it’s a very distinctive stand and more and more distinctive stands are disappearing so would be a shame to see another one going and I’m not quite sure but for me it is a symbol of Bayer Leverkusen. Does anyone have anyone know what is happening to that stand is the stadium becoming a complete bowl?


:nuts: You must be one of the very few who likes these aquariums. Constructions like these kill the atmosphere in a stadium.
Guess you like this one from Antwerp also :


----------



## GNU

*The new stand in Bielefeld:*


----------



## Kampflamm

Looks like Stamford Bridge now.


----------



## Skyline_FFM

He he he!


----------



## GNU

*impuls arena, Augsburg* 

total cap: 30.119 (49.000 after the 2nd phase)










*webcam:*


----------



## Carrerra

When is the 2nd phase expansion expected to happen? Maybe when the club gets promoted to 1st division? :lol:


----------



## GNU

Maybe. Theres no date set but Im glad that the stadium is expandable and that they have defined it as a goal.


----------



## Patrick

Aachen's new stadium, the "Neuer Tivoli" is also under construction. Capacity 32,900


----------



## renco

Any news about new Mainz stadium?


----------



## sibyl-vane

@GNU:

you'll find loads of Dresden (and other) construction pics here: http://www.stadionwelt.de/neu/sw_stadien/index.php?folder=sites&site=neubau_d_detail&id=59 (it's free)

@ renco:

there is a lot of resistance regarding the Coface Arena in Mainz. They found remains of a roman settlement underneath the building site, which might delay the start of construction work. Furthermore the population of the borough close to the planned stadium is forming up against the project. Latest report has it that the stadium can't be opened by 2010 as scheduled.


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## CiudadanoDelMundo

Germany's stadium infrastructure is simply amazing! World's nº 1 IMHO


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## sibyl-vane

@ Carrera:

I have a feeling that most parts of stadionwelt are free anyway...i think an annual subscription is 12 Euros or something. which would be 1 € per month then..


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## Patrick

Carrerra said:


> I can't believe that this is used by 4th division club. Stadia infrastructure of Germany always stunnes me, especially those of lower leagues.
> 
> 4th division stadiums in Germany >>> 1st division stadiums in Italy


are u sure? 

Here are the 4th league stadiums in 2008/09.
Unfortunately, we don't have an amateur league for the B-teams, so esepcially the fourth league is packed with B-teams. Some of these B-teams will play in the stadiums of their Bundesliga-teams, because their actual stadiums are mostly too old and unsafe.
these b-teams are not liked by the other clubs.

REGIONALLIGA NORD

1. FC Magdeburg
Ernst-Grube-Stadion (Magdeburg), capacity: 27,250

















SV Babelsberg 03
Karl-Liebknecht-Stadion (Potsdam), capacity: 10,499

















VfB Lübeck
Stadion an der Lohmühle (Lübeck), capacity: 17,869

















SV Holstein Kiel
Holstein-Stadion (Kiel), capacity: 11,981

















Altonaer FC 93
Adolf-Jäger-Kampfbahn (Hamburg), capacity: 8,000

















SV Wilhelmshaven
Jadestadion (Wilhemshaven), capacity: 7,500

















FC Oberneuland
Sportpark Vinnenweg (Bremen), capacity: 3,500

















Türkiyemspor Berlin
Friedrich-Ludwig-Jahn-Sportpark (Berlin), capacity: 19,708

















Hallescher FC
Kurt-Wabbel-Stadion (Halle), capacity: 23,860

















Chemnitzer FC
Stadion an der Gellertstraße (Chemnitz), capacity: 16,061

















VFC Plauen
Vogtlandstadion (Plauen), capacity: 12,000

















FC Sachsen Leipzig
Zentralstadion (Leipzig), capacity: 44,193

















FC Energie Cottbus II
Stadion der Freundschaft (Cottbus), capacity: 22,746. Also home of the Bundesliga-Team of Energie Cottbus.

















Hamburger SV II
Edmund-Plambeck-Stadion (Norderstedt), capacity: 7,000

















VfL Wolfsburg II
VfL-Stadion am Elsterweg (Wolfsburg), capacity: 17,600

















Hannoverscher SV 96 II
Niedersachsenstadion (AWD-Arena; Hannover), capacity: 49,000. Also home of the Bundesliga-Team of Hannover 96.

















Hertha BSC Berlin II
Stadion am Wurfplatz (Berlin), capacity: 5,400

















FC Hansa Rostock II
Ostseestadion (DKB-Arena; Rostock), capacity: 29,000. Also home of the Bundesliga-team of Hansa Rostock.


















REGIONALLIGA WEST

Rot-Weiss Essen
Georg-Melches-Stadion (Essen), capacity: 21,500

















SC Verl
Stadion an der Poststraße (Verl), capacity: 5,000

















SV Elversberg
Waldstadion Kaiserlinde (Elversberg), capacity: 6,008

















FSV Oggersheim
Südweststadion (Ludwigshafen), capacity: 41,383 (currently under renovation: 6,100)

















BV Cloppenburg
Stadion an der Friesoyther Straße (Cloppenburg), capacity: 8,000

















1. FC Kleve
Volksbank-Arena (Kleve), capacity: 5,000

















SC Preußen Münster
Preußenstadion (Münster), capacity: 15,050 (will be renovated)

















VfL Sportfreunde Lotte
Stadion am Lotter Kreuz (PGW-Arena; Lotte), capacity: 5,500

















VfR Wormatia Worms
Wormatia-Stadion (Worms), capacity: 16,000

















SV Eintrach Trier
Moselstadion (Trier), capacity: 10,254

















BV Borussia Dortmund 09 II
Kampfbahn Rote Erde (Dortmund), capacity: 28,000

























VfL Borussia Mönchengladbach II
Grenzlandstadion (Mönchengladbach), capacity: 10,000

















TSV Bayer Leverkusen II
Südstadion (Köln), capacity: 12,000

















1. FC Köln II
Franz-Kremer-Stadion (Köln), capacity: 5,000

















FC Schalke 04 II
Sportpark Wanne-Süd (Herne), capacity: 16,000

















VfL Bochum II
Lohrheidestadion (Bochum), capacity: 16,223

















1. FSV Mainz 05 II
Stadion am Bruchweg (Mainz), capacity: 20,300. Also home of the bundesliga-team of Mainz 05.

















1. FC Kaiserslautern II
Fritz-Walter-Stadion Platz 4 (Kaiserslautern), capacity: 3,000


















REGIONALLIGA SÜD

SSV Reutlingen 05
Stadion an der Kreuzeiche (Reutlingen), capacity: 15,228

















KSV Hessen Kassel
Auestadion (Kassel), capacity: 19,600

















SC Pfullendorf
Waldstadion an der Kasernenstraße (ALMO-Arena; Pfullendorf), capacity: 10,000

















SV Darmstadt 98
Stadion am Böllenfalltor (Darmstadt), capacity: 20,000

















SV Viktoria Aschaffenburg
Stadion am Schönbusch (Aschaffenburg), capacity: 8,000

















SSV Ulm
Donaustadion (Ulm), capacity: 19,500

















SV Waldhof Mannheim
Carl-Benz-Stadion (Mannheim), capacity: 27,000

















1. FC Heidenheim
Albstadion (Heidenheim), capacity: 8,000

















TSV Großbardorf
Willy-Sachs-Stadion (Schweinfurt), capacity: 15,000

















1. FC Eintracht Bamberg
Waldstadion (Weismain), capacity: 18,000

















TSV 1860 München II
Stadion an der Grünwalder Straße (München), capacity: 21,272

















Karlsruher SC II
Wildparkstadion Platz 2 (Karlsruhe), capacity: 5,000
















but I guess, they'll also play in the eal stadium next season, judging by the pic.

SV Wehen Wiesbaden II
Brita-Arena (Wiesbaden), capacity: 12,066. Also home of the Bundesliga-team of SV Wehen.

















SG Eintracht Frankfurt II
Stadion am Bornheimer Hang (Volksbank-Stadion; Frankfurt am Main), capacity: 10,300 after renovation

















SC Freiburg II
Möslestadion (Freiburg), capacity: 18,000

















SpVgg Greuther Fürth II
Sportpark Ronhof (Playmobil-Stadion; Fürth), capacity: 15,500. Also home of the Bundesliga-team of Greuther Fürth.

















1. FC Nürnberg II
Sportanlage Valznerweiher (Nürnberg), capacity: 7,000
















Judging by the pic, they'll also move to somewhere else.

SpVgg Unterhaching II
Generali Sportpark (Unterhaching), capacity: 15,053. Also home of the third league team of Unterhaching.


----------



## Rohne

trmather said:


> So Hoffenheim's stadium is like a mini *WALDSTADION*?


Don't even try to use this C-word again!


----------



## goschio

Commerzbank is a proud Frankfurt company. So calling it Commerzbank arena is completely fine.


----------



## GNU

Hertha Berlin is considering to move out of the Olympiastadion and to go for a new arena: (sorry only in german)

*Hertha bestätigt Pläne für Stadion-Neubau*

*Zwei Jahre nach Sanierung und Umbau des Berliner Olympiastadions verdichten sich die Hinweise auf einen geplanten Stadion-Neubau durch den Hauptmieter Hertha BSC. Der Verein bestätigte jetzt Berichte von Morgenpost Online, wonach zur Zeit der Bau eines reinen Fußball-Stadions geprüft werde.*

Das Olympiastadion ist riesig, die Ränge oft leer: Unter diesem Phänomen hat der Berliner Fußball-Bundesligist Hertha BSC meist zu leiden. Zwar kamen im Juli zum Testspiel gegen den FC Liverpool einmal 51.000 Zuschauer. Doch in der Regel sind es deutlich weniger. Am Samstag schauten gegen den hoch eingeschätzten VfL Wolfsburg (2:2) lediglich 38.900 Zuschauer im Olympiastadion zu. Im Uefa-Cup-Heimspiel gegen die Iren von St. Patrick's Athletic (2:0) am Dienstag verloren sich lediglich 13.000 treue Anhänger in der riesigen Arena mit ihren 74.400 Plätzen.

An der sportlichen Bilanz von Hertha kann es nicht liegen. Von zehn Pflichtspielen verloren die Berliner nur eines (1:4 beim FC Bayern). Stattdessen bewahrheitet sich auch in der vierten Saison nach der Sanierung der WM-Finalarena, was Eike Wenzel, Chefredakteur des Zukunftsinstituts, gesagt hat: „Das Olympiastadion ist ein Wettbewerbsnachteil.“
Darum denkt der Verein jetzt an Konsequenzen: Die Funktionäre erwägen ein neues, reines Fußballstadion zu bauen. Denn die Nachteile des Olympiastadions liegen auf der Hand.
Durch die Laufbahn ist die Distanz groß, der Funke vom Feld zu Fans entzündet sich nur schwer. So eindrucksvoll die Architektur ist, der Komfort ist nicht mehr zeitgemäß. Herthas Zuschauerschnitt der vergangenen Saison mit 44.000 ist ordentlich. Aber die Stadion-Auslastung von 59 Prozent ist die schlechteste der Bundesliga. Ein Insider sagt: „Egal, wie gut wir spielen, den Kampf um die Auslastung können wir im Olympiastadion nicht gewinnen.“
Die Pläne sind längst dem Anfangsstadium entwachsen. So werden gerade die Voraussetzungen für eine Machbarkeitsstudie geschaffen. Deren Inhalt: Wie sieht ein ideales Stadion aus? Wie groß sollte die Kapazität sein? Wie teuer ist ein Neubau? Wer soll das bezahlen? Wo soll das Stadion stehen? Am Donnerstag bestätigte der Bundesligist einen entsprechenden Bericht von Morgenpost Online.
Das Projekt wird intern schon länger vorangetrieben. So erfuhr Morgenpost Online von einem Treffen führender Hertha-Verantwortlicher mit Ehrhart Körting, dem für Sport zuständigen Innensenator. Hertha BSC, Hauptmieter des Olympiastadions, empfindet die Zusammenarbeit mit Peter von Löbbecke, Geschäftsführer der Stadionbetreibergesellschaft, als sehr schlecht.
Unter anderem ließ der Verein durchblicken, dass man nicht verheiratet sei mit dem Olympiastadion. Herthas Mietvertrag läuft bis 2017, die jährliche Miete beträgt 4,5 Millionen Euro. 

*Neubau kostet 150 bis 180 Millionen *

Die Kosten sind klar zu beziffern. Orientiert man sich an dem, was die Arenen in Hamburg, Wolfsburg oder derzeit in Sinsheim (für die TSG Hoffenheim) kosten, wird bei Hertha für einen Neubau eine Summe zwischen 150 und 180 Millionen Euro veranschlagt. Klar ist: Nachdem das Land Berlin von 2000 bis 2004 das Olympiastadion für 282 Millionen Euro komplett saniert hat, wird die öffentliche Hand zu einer neuen Lösung keinen Cent beisteuern. Die Finanzierung muss der Klub alleine stemmen.
Wie das gehen kann, soll die Machbarkeitsstudie zeigen: Wie teuer sind die Namensrechte zu verkaufen? Was ist über Bier- und Catering-Verträge zu erlösen? Gut möglich, dass als Konsequenz eines Neubaus, die Suche nach einem großen Investor eine neue Dimension erhalten wird.
Bleibt die Frage nach dem Standort. Bei Hertha denken sie über drei Alternativen nach. Die Königslösung wäre ein Neuaufbau auf dem Gelände, wo derzeit der Flughafen Tempelhof steht. Infrastruktur mit Autobahn, U-Bahn ist gegeben. Bekanntlich ist noch nicht entschieden, wie das Areal nach der Schließung des Flughafens genutzt werden soll.
Außerdem im Blickfeld sind zwei Standorte an der Peripherie der Stadt: Das Gelände des früheren Grenzüberganges Drei Linden im Süden von Berlin. Der FC Bayern hat eine solche Lösung gewählt und seine neue Allianz Arena im Norden von München an der Autobahn-Ausfahrt Fröttmaning errichtet. Eine Alternative hat Hertha BSC unmittelbar nördlich von Berlin ausgemacht: das Oranienburger Kreuz. Egal, wo es hingeht, das neue Stadion soll kleiner werden. Eine Kapazität von 60.000 Plätzen wird angestrebt. 
Die Planungen sollen eine Ausbaustufe vorsehen. Das würde die Option eröffnen, das Fassungsvermögen bei Bedarf aufstocken zu können.

*60.000 Plätze plus Ausbaustufe *

Auch die demographische Entwicklung hat Hertha im Blick. Die Menschen werden älter, Komfort wird noch wichtiger werden als bisher. Breite Zugänge, Rolltreppen statt Treppenstufen, ausreichende Sitzbreite.
Ein Stadion-Neubau beschäftigt Hertha nicht erst seit der Geisterkulisse gegen St. Patrick's. Angenommen, der Verein steigt 2017 aus dem Mietvertrag im Olympiastadion aus. Dann muss spätestens 2014 mit dem Bau der neuen Arena begonnen werden. Davor braucht es drei, vier oder gar fünf Jahre um Baugenehmigungen zu erlangen, um Fragen der Infrastruktur mit dem Land Berlin (oder Brandenburg) zu klären. Und davor steht eine öffentliche Diskussion um das gesamte Thema. Die ist hiermit eröffnet.

http://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/article889511/Hertha_bestaetigt_Plaene_fuer_Stadion_Neubau.html


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## Kampflamm

60.000 for Hertha. :lol: They couldn't even get a 5 figure attendance for their UEFA Cup game earlier this week. 35-40.000 should suffice for this boring, bland club.


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## GNU

60k sounds reasonable for a new stadium there.
However its been pretty much prooven now that the renovation of the Olympiastadion has been a giant waste of money.
The stadium was built for the 30's and not the 21st century.
Its a bit like renovating a 19th century railtrack and then putting a modern train on it.


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## www.sercan.de

60,000 is IMO to big for Hertha.
Maybe a 50,000 all-seater (55k with terraces) would be ok.


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## EPA001

Maybe it is too big, but maybe when the atmosphere is good in the new stadium, they might attract new fans who now dislike the experience they can have in the beautiful Olympiastadion. That stadium is beautiful, but is first and foremost an athletics stadium! The atmosphere can never be as good as in a real football stadium.

In the article the Allianz Arena is mentioned. That is an interesting comparison. Although also the Olympiastadion of München is a beautiful venue, compare the atmosphere and spectator comfort of that stadium with the Allianz Arena and the difference is clear.

Since the new stadiums of München and Gelsenkirchen (Schalke '04) are built too small, I think 60.000 seats for Hertha BSC is OK in my opinion. They can grow if the stadium becomes a success.


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## www.sercan.de

Our German friends will know it better, but for me Berliners are a lil bit "Mediterranean" like.
Team is good = full house
Match vs a big team = full house

otherwise nobody is interested. Only the ultras and the season ticket holders.


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## dudu24

Their attendance will increase once they move to normal stadium. Connection with Bayern is alright.. Bayern didn't sell out single game on old olympic stadium and now on new stadium its impossible to get tickets if you aren't season ticket holder.


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## Kampflamm

www.sercan.de said:


> Our German friends will know it better, but for me Berliners are a lil bit "Mediterranean" like.
> Team is good = full house
> Match vs a big team = full house
> 
> otherwise nobody is interested. Only the ultras and the season ticket holders.


And the problem is that the team is bad 9 out of 10 seasons. 

Schalke and Bayern both have good teams and dedicated supporters (at least in Schalke's case). 40.000 is more than enough for lowly Hertha.


----------



## www.sercan.de

Hertha do not have a big fanbase like Schalke or Bayern.
It was so clear that Schalke and Bayern's new stadiums will be sold out every game.
But Hertha? They invested so much, but no success. And Hertha isn't really a "big" club with such a glory history. 2x Champion in Germany (1930 and 1931). 
And it hasn't got this "religion flair" like Schalke. (Last championship 1958, but still big fanbase)

BTW Kampfy, do you think that it is possible to expand the Veltins Arena or are there any rumours?

Schalke and Hamburf need a 3rd tier. (65,000 as allseater)


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## Rohne

The sentence in the article "Am Samstag schauten gegen den *hoch eingeschätzten* VfL Wolfsburg (2:2) lediglich 38.900 Zuschauer im Olympiastadion zu" (means in english that there were only 38900 spectators watching against the *highly rated* VfL Wolfsburg on saturday) made me really laugh :lol: Nobody wants to see Golfsburg! :bash:




EPA001 said:


> Maybe it is too big, but maybe when the atmosphere is good in the new stadium, they might attract new fans who now dislike the experience they can have in the beautiful Olympiastadion.


Which atmosphere? Berlin was never known for good atmosphere and this won't change just because of a new stadium.
If they really build it, I hope they won't locate it far outside of the city (like Dreilinden or Kreuz Oranienburg - mentioned in the article).



> Although also the Olympiastadion of München is a beautiful venue, compare the atmosphere and spectator comfort of that stadium with the Allianz Arena and the difference is clear.


Yeah, the atmosphere in Munich's new stadium (or should I say cemetery?) is even worse than in the Olympiastadion :nuts:


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## Kampflamm

www.sercan.de said:


> Hertha do not have a big fanbase like Schalke or Bayern.
> It was so clear that Schalke and Bayern's new stadiums will be sold out every game.


I don't know if that was so clear in Schalke's case because attendance #s at the old Parkstadion were never _that_ high, but knowing what we know now, they probably should have built a 75.000 seater. Getting tickets is almost impossible these days, even if you're a member (which means you get a contingent of 4 tickets that can be bought before the sale to the general public begins).

I guess any sort of expansion would be quite costly because the entire roof would have to be removed, along with the glass facade. I wouldn't mind though since I hate that damn thing (the roof).


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## Kuvvaci

what will happen to Olympic stadium then?


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## GNU

dudu24 said:


> Their attendance will increase once they move to normal stadium.


True, Hertha was averaging 44k last season in the Bundesliga and it would be naive to assume that this figure wouldnt go up if theyd move to a modern purpose-built football stadium. We just need to look at the other clubs for confirmation.


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## GNU

Kampflamm said:


> And the problem is that the team is bad 9 out of 10 seasons.
> 
> Schalke and Bayern both have good teams and dedicated supporters (at least in Schalke's case). 40.000 is more than enough for lowly Hertha.


But thats hardly an argument considering that clubs like Cologne (what did they average back in the crappy Müngersdorfer Stadion?) or Dortmund sell out aswell despite bad performances.


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## Kampflamm

That's because they have a decent fanbase, something which Hertha lacks. They've been trying to get people interested in the club for over a decade now but it hasn't worked.

Anyway, some new pics of Hoffenheim


















































































Their new training HQ which will incorporate a baroque castle:


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## bing222

Cool photos any webcams


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## GNU

Kampflamm said:


> That's because they have a decent fanbase, something which Hertha lacks. They've been trying to get people interested in the club for over a decade now but it hasn't worked.


I dont know much about Colognes or Herthas fanbase, however Cologne was averaging 31.147 (Müngersdorfer Stadion) in the 2000/2001 season, compared to 40.455 for Hertha and 46.599 for Schalke (Parkstadion).

http://www.weltfussball.de/zuschauer/bundesliga-2000-2001/1/

Considering that Schalke and Cologne are now averaging much more in their new homes whilst selling out all the time, itd be strange to assume that nothing of the sort could happen in Berlin either.


----------



## kanye

bing222 said:


> Cool photos any webcams


http://www.tsg-hoffenheim.de/4news.php?d[abteilung]=Das neue Stadion&ueberschrift=Das+neue+Stadion

DRESDEN - Rudolf-Harbig-Stadion (32,296)
http://www.bauen-fuer-emotionen.de/index.php?id=5

AUGSBURG - impuls arena (30,119/49,000)
http://www.impuls-arena.de/pages/webcam_popup.htm
if fc augsburg gets into first league, they'll get the 49,000



GNU said:


> I dont know much about Colognes or Herthas fanbase, however Cologne was averaging 31.147 (Müngersdorfer Stadion) in the 2000/2001 season, compared to 40.455 for Hertha and 46.599 for Schalke (Parkstadion).
> 
> http://www.weltfussball.de/zuschauer/bundesliga-2000-2001/1/
> 
> Considering that Schalke and Cologne are now averaging much more in their new homes whilst selling out all the time, itd be strange to assume that nothing of the sort could happen in Berlin either.


2007/08
1st league avg:
schalke 61,274
hertha 45,482

2nd league avg
cologne 43,763 !


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## GNU

kanye said:


> 2007/08
> 1st league avg:
> schalke 61,274
> hertha 45,482
> 
> 2nd league avg
> cologne 43,763 !


Correct, that was the main point. A new purpose-built football stadium usually leads to higher attendances. Schalke and Cologne are the best examples.


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## JYDA

I agree. Track stadiums are awful places to watch a game and especially from behind the goal. You need binoculars from back there. A purpose built stadium would lead to an attendance jump for Hertha.


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## Carrerra

Wow, all German renderings I've ever seen here are taking shapes. If Germans show a certain rendering, it means they will build it soon for sure. German executions are great kay:


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## Demetrius

Zwei remarks:

1. I don't know whether it is the similarity with Karaiskaki or Kampflamm's persistent presentations, but Hofenheim is looking cute! :cheers:

2. The new stadion in Dresden will be the home of Dynamo Dresden (I can see the seats' colors!) ? What hapenned to this legenderay ossie team?


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## Patrick

unfortunately not for skyscrapers 

Bornheimer Hang, Frankfurt









New stadium in Augsburg


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## Patrick

Demetrius said:


> 2. The new stadion in Dresden will be the home of Dynamo Dresden (I can see the seats' colors!) ? What hapenned to this legenderay ossie team?


they are currently playing in the 3rd league of Germany.
Here is a picture from their latest home game, ca. 2 weeks ago, against Union Berlin. They play in the construction site, that's why the seats are already installed although not all stands are completed yet.









after the end of the DDR, they played in the Bundesliga until 1994, but relegated due to financial problems directly into 3rd league, and also played a short time in the 4th league. in 2004, they came back and promoted top the 2nd Bundesliga, but relegated to 3rd league two seasons later.


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## GNU

Bayarena:


----------



## likasz

I like new stadium in Hoffenheim
Has Bayer pharmacy at BayArena?


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## GNU

dunno, but theres a Mcdonalds outlet

http://schalker.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/leverkusen-schalke-23022008-004.jpg


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## Demetrius

Going back to Dynamo Dresden stadion, I realised that the construction appears to concern an extremely steep one-tier stadium:










Any available render about the final result? It seems it is going to be a hell of a homeground!


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## GNU

Demetrius said:


> Any available render about the final result? It seems it is going to be a hell of a homeground!


Heres one interior rendering:

http://www.bauen-fuer-emotionen.de/uploads/pics/Innen-Ansicht.jpg

stadium website:

http://www.bauen-fuer-emotionen.de/


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## renco

I'm amazed with progress on all German stadiums.:applause::master:


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## Kampflamm

Hoffenheim:

I think the video walls should have been placed a bit higher.


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## Demetrius

GNU said:


> Heres one interior rendering:
> 
> http://www.bauen-fuer-emotionen.de/uploads/pics/Innen-Ansicht.jpg
> 
> stadium website:
> 
> http://www.bauen-fuer-emotionen.de/



Vielen Dank!

It is indeed going to be very "warm" homeground!


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## Chimaera

Kampflamm said:


> Hoffenheim:
> 
> I think the video walls should have been placed a bit higher.


You're right, it looks like spectators on the top rows of one corner will not be able to see the screen at the opposite corner. I just hope the video walls don't block the views towards the pitch...


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## railcity

www.sercan.de said:


> Our German friends will know it better, but for me Berliners are a lil bit "Mediterranean" like.
> Team is good = full house
> Match vs a big team = full house
> 
> otherwise nobody is interested. Only the ultras and the season ticket holders.


I don't think this is "mediterranean" behaviour, but rather a phenomenon of big cities. In provincial towns, the number of spectators is less volatile.


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## www.sercan.de

But Cologne or Hamburg are always full.
London has got so many PL teams, but stadiums are sold out.

While in the Southern countries fans are sensitive


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## Indictable

NICE!


----------



## railcity

www.sercan.de said:


> But Cologne or Hamburg are always full.
> London has got so many PL teams, but stadiums are sold out.
> 
> While in the Southern countries fans are sensitive


Hamburg is not always full. And Cologne is not really a metropolis. Berlin is on a different level in this sense. 

In Paris people are also just visiting the big games. The same in Copenhagen, Stockholm, Zurich, Moscow,.....

In my impression number of spectators in provincial towns in southern Europe are quite steady (on a low level mostly). I have the impression you mean with "mediterranean" mostly Istanbul, Rome, etc. But these are big cities again.

England is a special case with its support your local team culture. But stadia of London teams are not really big after all, except the one of Arsenal.


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## Kampflamm

Berlin isn't a metropolis either. People don't go to the games because they can also visit other "cultural" sites but simply because Hertha is boring club.


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## Patrick

well, Cologne has 1 million inhabitants, and some cities +50,000 inhabitants are just behind the city's border 

better compare to Kaiserslautern, a city smaller than 100,000 inhabitants, and the Palatinate region is not really dense populated, but they averaged 27,000 spectators at their games in the 2nd league least season, although most of their games were crap and the club ranked mostly at the bottom of the table, but i think it is just natural that a game against 1. FC Köln or Borussia Mönchengladbach attracts more people than a game against SC Paderborn or SV Wehen.


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## www.sercan.de

But what about the spanish or portuguese ones?

Hamburg 2007/2008: 55.368 
To me its full


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## Kampflamm

Hoffenheim...currently at the top of the Bundesliga table.


----------



## EPA001

^^ I think they have build the stadium too small!   . It is a very nice stadium there in Sinsheim!


----------



## Kampflamm

View from the highest seat. You can see everything but I still think the video wall is a bit of a distraction.












> Not a single Hooligan battle could harm this sport, but this person can and he does it. And that's why everybody who calls himself a football fan has to hate Hoppenheim.
> Dietmar Hopp Hurensohn! F*** you!


hno:

How does he harm this sport? By buying players like Compper, Sahilovic or Ibisevic who sat on the bench for their old clubs? And Bayern fans should be especially quiet...or have they forgotten the secret deal they made with Kirch a couple of years ago?


----------



## GNU

You have an underdog who manages (currently) to keep up with some of the established clubs who have divided the turf between them. I think thats entertaining, especially here in Germany where Bayern doesnt really face any competition anyhow.


----------



## berkshire royal

I have been to Germany many times and have always kept a close eye on German Football and I have to say that I am envious of the way German Football is run. 

It's amazing that you get a mixture of brilliant stadiums, safe-standing, cheap tickets, good food and beer at decent prices, good fan culture, fan ownership and still have a decent standard of football on the pitch. 
And also you have one of the most exciting and unpredictable leagues out of the major European Leagues even with Bayern. I wish I could take some of those practices to England, Football across Europe should be more like it is in Germany. I really hope that Bayern or Hopp dont get their way and bully you into changing the ownership rules or changing the fan experience. 

On Topic I am actually not that impressed with Hoffenheims new stadium, the exterior is impressive but the interior is a copy of about 15 other stadiums. Not that it matters as soon as Hoff loses interest I'm sure they will end up like Gretna.


----------



## GNU

berkshire royal said:


> And also you have one of the most exciting and unpredictable leagues out of the major European Leagues even with Bayern.


Not sure about that. Whenever Bayern plays a halfway decent season you can be pretty sure that theyll win the league in the end.
In England you have a handful of decent teams who make sure that the standards are high. In Germany youll basically only have a chance to win the league if Bayern has messed up somehow. No team is really capable of continually challenging them and thats a weakness.


----------



## berkshire royal

^^
Maybe but there isn't a massive gap between the top 3/4 that has developed in England many teams can still win the league and cup in Germany. Spending on transfers and wages hasn't gone mental like in England so many teams can still aspire to finish right at the top. Here is a comparison in this decade there has only been 3 different winners of the league and for the last 3/4 years the top 4 has had the same teams finishing in those position. In Germany there have been 4, with a number of different teams coming close and maybe this year Hamburg or Schalke can win. Teams can come from nowhere and win the league without spending a small nations GDP on transfers and wages, which is the only way it can be achieved in England. Do you understand my point?


----------



## N1V1

GNU said:


> Not sure about that. Whenever Bayern plays a halfway decent season you can be pretty sure that theyll win the league in the end.
> In England you have a handful of decent teams who make sure that the standards are high. In Germany youll basically only have a chance to win the league if Bayern has messed up somehow. No team is really capable of continually challenging them and thats a weakness.


Germany has enough subtoppers to battle Bayern. For example; Hamburg, Werner Bremen, Schalke04, Stuttgart and Frankfurt.


----------



## Patrick

N1V1 said:


> Germany has enough subtoppers to battle Bayern. For example; Hamburg, Werner Bremen, Schalke04, Stuttgart and *Frankfurt*.


1 Hamburger SV 7 5 1 1 14:11 3 16
2 1899 Hoffenheim (N) 7 4 1 2 16:12 4 13
3 VfB Stuttgart 7 4 1 2 12:8 4 13
4 Bayer Leverkusen 7 4 0 3 18:11 7 12
5 FC Schalke 04 7 3 3 1 11:7 4 12
6 Borussia Dortmund 7 3 3 1 13:11 2 12
7 Werder Bremen 7 3 2 2 19:16 3 11
8 Hertha BSC 7 3 2 2 8:8 0 11
9 VfL Wolfsburg 7 2 4 1 14:11 3 10
10 1. FC Köln (N) 7 3 1 3 7:9 -2 10
11 Bayern München (M, P) 7 2 3 2 15:13 2 9
12 Karlsruher SC 6 3 0 3 7:9 -2 9
13 Hannover 96 7 2 2 3 7:11 -4 8
14 VfL Bochum 7 1 3 3 10:11 -1 6
15 Arminia Bielefeld 7 1 3 3 9:12 -3 6
16 Energie Cottbus 7 1 2 4 3:10 -7 5
*17 Eintracht Frankfurt 6 0 3 3 5:9 -4 3*
18 Borussia M'gladbach (N) 7 1 0 6 6:15 -9 3



and to come back to the topic:

Dresden today


----------



## rob18

What exactly do you intend with that "Hasta la vista, Hopp!"? That's a death threat?

Also I suppose the moderators on here don't understand german, right? Otherwise I don't understand
why such degenerated slogan's like "smeissen Stein um Stein auf das Pack vom Niederrhein!" and insults
like "Dietmar Hopp Hurensohn!" are allowed on this board.


----------



## christof79

*Webcams BayArena 2009*

here two webcams of BayArena 2009 Site...


http://www.bayer04.de/b04/de/bayarena2009_webcam1.aspx?guid=1409-C53D2F77-FD7B-4DF2-9FF9-

http://www.bayer04.de/b04/de/bayarena2009_webcam.aspx?guid=1298-923E8C21-7E96-471A-9165-2A67696B56EF-620


----------



## Iain1974

berkshire royal said:


> ^^
> Maybe but there isn't a massive gap between the top 3/4 that has developed in England many teams can still win the league and cup in Germany. Spending on transfers and wages hasn't gone mental like in England so many teams can still aspire to finish right at the top. Here is a comparison in this decade there has only been 3 different winners of the league and for the last 3/4 years the top 4 has had the same teams finishing in those position. In Germany there have been 4, with a number of different teams coming close and maybe this year Hamburg or Schalke can win. Teams can come from nowhere and win the league without spending a small nations GDP on transfers and wages, which is the only way it can be achieved in England. Do you understand my point?


We have a top 3 1/2 in the Premier League. Liverpool only half count.

Manchester City will do well and may even make it a top 4 (I forsee they'll replace Liverpool).

The weakness of the Premier League compared to Bundesliga is the parity. Yes, there's usually daylight between Bayern and the Rest but in the Prem there may as well be Prem 1 (4 teams) and Prem 2 (the other 16).


----------



## Kampflamm




----------



## kanye

BayArena (30,000) new photos











































more u'll find here
http://www.stadionwelt.de/neu/sw_st...&site=neubau_fotos_view&id=85&ordner=20081021


----------



## lpioe

Will the remodeled stadium have terraces?

As far as I know Bayarena was one of the few german stadiums without them.


----------



## erbse

Looking good, Hoffenheim!

Great to see this stadium built for such a tiny city - especially via donations.


----------



## christof79

*Update Pics BayArena 2009*



















two of the biggest (wheel driven) cranes in the world !!!

more Pics http://www.stadionwelt.de/neu/sw_sta...rdner=20081021

@Ipioe: yes, the remodeled BayArena will hace terraces


----------



## Kampflamm

Hoffenheim



























*
Nice Pano*


----------



## x-marien-x

*DRESDEN - Rudolf-Harbig-Stadion (32,770)*

very big for a club in the 3rd divison
http://www.bauen-fuer-emotionen.de/


----------



## Alle

There is already a thread for German stadium development.

A solid stadium, in either case...


----------



## x-marien-x




----------



## Patrick

This village is 26km southeast of Heidelberg (where Hopp tried to move the club by fusioning it with 2 other clubs in the region).


----------



## x-marien-x

10.10.08









10.10.08









10.10.08









10.10.08


----------



## x-marien-x

WEBCAM FOR IMPULS ARENA


----------



## x-marien-x

*KAMERA 1:*









*KAMERA 2:*









*KAMERA 3:*









*KAMERA 4:*


----------



## x-marien-x

*WEBCAM 1:*









*WEBCAM 2:*


----------



## JYDA

almost the exact same as Dresden


----------



## npmrsi

*New Millerntor (27,000)*



Bobby3 said:


> Are St. Pauli upgrading their stadium? If so, does anyone have pictures?


Yes they do


----------



## x-marien-x

*webacams in Leverkusen (Bay-Arena)*



















videos of Bay-Arena ===> Click here


----------



## kanye

What is this thread about? lol


----------



## Elensar77

How much this stadium cost?
I wonder, all german stadium looks like this.
Maybe very cheap?


----------



## BobDaBuilder

What's the nickname of the Dresden team? The Bombers?


----------



## kanye

BobDaBuilder said:


> What's the nickname of the Dresden team? The Bombers?


black-yellow's I think ?


----------



## Demetrius

You got to love this venue: Nice steep stands close to the pitch, one-tier, all roofed, IMO this is how a proper football field should be!


----------



## www.sercan.de

Yeah, stands are very steep. Any section plans 
BTW, whats the capacity as an all-seater?


----------



## npmrsi

Elensar77 said:


> How much this stadium cost?
> I wonder, all german stadium looks like this.
> Maybe very cheap?


It costs 42 Million Euro


----------



## www.sercan.de

Dou you have a cross section and a bowl plan?


----------



## Kaiser

Nice renders!

2011 FIFA Women's World Cup will be held in this city right? I think that's why they're refurbishing this stadium.


----------



## npmrsi

www.sercan.de said:


> Dou you have a cross section and a bowl plan?


The only other plan I have found:


----------



## novaguy

Last week while on my way to Berlin my train stopped in Dresden for a few minutes,looked interesting, next time I'll have to take a day or so and visit.


----------



## mihai_alex

novaguy said:


> Last week while on my way to Berlin my train stopped in Dresden for a few minutes,looked interesting, next time I'll have to take a day or so and visit.


IMO because of the reconstruction in the past years of all those destroyed districts in WW2,it became the most beautifull city in Germany.


----------



## Details

Cool updates:

31.10.08
http://www.schwarzgelb-dynamo.de/bildergalerie/RHS Umbaufotos 31.Oktober/index.html

3.11.08
http://www.schwarzgelb-dynamo.de/bildergalerie/RHS Umbaufotos 3.November/index.html


----------



## Kampflamm

Hoffenheim at night:


----------



## il fenomeno

ten years to bring hoffenheim into first league, one hour to burn down this pile of shit.


----------



## Zeno2

Great to see that Hoffenheim is doing so well in competiton. They truly are the champions! Respect for Dietmar Hopp !


----------



## Jenstz

Does anybody know if the stadium of hoffenheim is expandable?


----------



## mihai_alex

Of course not,just look at the stadium plans..


----------



## Kampflamm

The first seats have now been installed:










I think an expansion is possible but unlikely. I read somewhere that they can't add any additional parking spaces because of environmental reasons though. :dunno:


----------



## mihai_alex

It is possible,but do dismember that complicated and expensive roof...and don't forget about the frontage of the stadium.


----------



## JYDA

expansion? It's a village team folks. They'd need the entire population of the surrounding region to go to a game just to fill the place. If anything this stadium is an oversized white elephant that should never have been built this large in the first place.


----------



## mihai_alex

^^
You're quite mistaken,Hoffenheim is a suburb of Sinsheim,the city where the stadium is being built,and it's no village,even though it's just 35000 large,but Germany it's not Canada,people would come 30-40 minutes away from Mannheim(350k) where the team is temporarily being hosted,and they've made themselfs quite popular there this season.


----------



## DiggerD21

Hoffenheim is located in a Metro-Region with 2,4 million inhabitants. The next sizable cities are: Mannheim / Ludwigshafen (both cities with together 470.000 inhabitants, 50km by car), Heidelberg (145.000 inhabitants, 25 km by car), Heilbronn (120.000 inhabitants, 38 km by car) and Karlsruhe (290.000 inhabitants, 60 km by car). Apart of Karlsruhe (and Sandhausen, a small town in the region) none of these cities in the region is represented in the upper three leagues.

The stadium is built in a way that it fulfils all necessary requirements for international matches.

And the club sold more than 10.000 season tickets.

It is true that the club couldn't be so successful without Hopp's money, but Dietmar Hopp is not the owner of the club. He is "just" the main sponsor, who actually is bound emotionally to this club (he played in the club in his youth days). Any club would be happy to have such a sponsor.


----------



## Bobby3

They aren't in danger of doing a Gretna are they? That'd be awful.


----------



## mihai_alex

^^
What happened to Gretna?


----------



## Bobby3

mihai_alex said:


> ^^
> What happened to Gretna?


Gretna is a tiny town on the border of England and Scotland, they moved from the English regional leagues to the Scottish national leagues when a spot opened up. They rose quickly through the leagues thanks to the backing of Brooks Mileson.

When Gretna reached the Scottish Premier League Mileson fell ill and was unable to continue to write the checks, this together with Gretna being unable to use Raydale Park (there home of 50 years) due to ground standards led to Gretna collapsing and ceasing to exist.

Of course, Hoffenheim look a lot safer, especially with this new stadium (Gretna wanted one, but it never happened, Mileson died soon after Gretna did...he once claimed the club was keeping him alive) but it still scares me somewhat.


----------



## GNU

@ Sercan:
It doesnt make much sense to have all of these extra threads for the smaller stadiums. We should keep them in here imo.


----------



## www.sercan.de

Why?
It always confused me when i sae Aachen or Dresden. Too many 30k stadiums in Germany are u/c


----------



## GEwinnen

Bobby3 said:


> Gretna is a tiny town on the border of England and Scotland, they moved from the English regional leagues to the Scottish national leagues when a spot opened up. They rose quickly through the leagues thanks to the backing of Brooks Mileson.
> 
> When Gretna reached the Scottish Premier League Mileson fell ill and was unable to continue to write the checks, this together with Gretna being unable to use Raydale Park (there home of 50 years) due to ground standards led to Gretna collapsing and ceasing to exist.
> 
> Of course, Hoffenheim look a lot safer, especially with this new stadium (Gretna wanted one, but it never happened, Mileson died soon after Gretna did...he once claimed the club was keeping him alive) but it still scares me somewhat.


I guess, Gretna didn't have a billionaire , who paid the bills.....


----------



## flierfy

Patrick said:


> it's closer to the highway


It's closer to the motorway and not just a highway. There's a highway running through Hoffenheim as well. However, it's the proximity to a motorway junction the stadium developers were looking for.


----------



## Grasshopper Zurich

important is not the population of hoffenheim or sinsheim, but the potential of spectators and hoffenheim has nearly 30`000 fans per game, each game


----------



## Patrick

mihai_alex said:


> Maybe you don't understand districts in Germany,Hoffenheim is part of Sinsheim.


Maybe you didn't understand what I wrote in my post you have quoted where I explained the district situations in the Bundesländer and why it's somehow difficult for *me *to see villages being parts of other villages or cities which are few kilometeres away. It's not just limited to Hoppenheim.

@firefly: Of course, I meant the A6


----------



## Kampflamm




----------



## www.sercan.de

Thats nice
http://www.alemannia-stadion.de/3D/panorama.php?block=O3-2

Looks a bit like Hoffenheim


----------



## lpioe

^^ Yep, I like it too.
My favourite '30k-1tier-boxes on one side' stadium after Karaiskakis.
Hoffenheim looks nice on the inside too apart from the kink(?) in the middle of the stands.


----------



## berkshire royal

Nothing special just Hoffenheim with yellow seats, and Hoffenheim is just a more modern version of the Dnipro stadium. Bowls there really is nothing at all that is exciting, interesting or original about them. 
No matter how much each architecht tries to see that the bowl they designed will be state of the art and original it really is a load of bull and they always end up looking the same.


----------



## Kampflamm

Have there been significant changes since the days of the Coliseum? I guess not.


----------



## Patrick

Kampflamm said:


>


I don't like this "Hey-look-at-me-i-am-so-great"-attitude.


----------



## railcity

Patrick said:


> I don't like this "Hey-look-at-me-i-am-so-great"-attitude.


And you make conclusions on the attitude of a person out of one single photo out of the context? On me, he doesn't make such an impression. He has every reason to be proud. If he wouldn't be, he would have to make an appointment with a shrink.


----------



## mihai_alex

berkshire royal said:


> Nothing special just Hoffenheim with yellow seats, and Hoffenheim is just a more modern version of the Dnipro stadium. Bowls there really is nothing at all that is exciting, interesting or original about them.
> No matter how much each architecht tries to see that the bowl they designed will be state of the art and original it really is a load of bull and they always end up looking the same.


But how the f**k would you make a stadium differently?this is the most pragmatic,efficient,cheapest design,I don't understand you people.There are very few ways to design a stadium.:bash:


----------



## Kampflamm

Hoffenheim video:


----------



## Patrick

too much Hoppelheim in this thead...well, I will participate in 

An older pic from Dec 05


----------



## GNU

*impuls arena, Augsburg*


----------



## Carrerra

GNU, who's that guy in your avatar? Maybe Maradona in his Barcelona days?


----------



## GNU

yes, thats him


----------



## Patrick

"inside" view of augsburg:









dresden:









the stadium of union berlin (stadion an der alten försterei) is also under renovation at the moment. the special thing about it is, that many fans of the club help working.


----------



## www.sercan.de

What will be the capacity of the Union stadium?


----------



## Patrick

capacity was 18100, 1500 of these were seats (so capacity on the terraces: 16600).

it will be enlarged to 23000. terraces: 19300 :banana:. seats: 3700 (380 of these in 38 vip-boxes, and 748 business-seats).

source: http://www.stadiongruender.de/download/stadionprojekt.pps


----------



## Zeno2

Patrick said:


> capacity was 18100, 1500 of these were seats (so capacity on the terraces: 16600).
> 
> it will be enlarged to 23000. terraces: 19300 :banana:. seats: 3700 (380 of these in 38 vip-boxes, and 748 business-seats).
> 
> source: http://www.stadiongruender.de/download/stadionprojekt.pps


Strange stadium design in Berlin. It looks so old fashioned, esp. the roof. btw those terraces remind me of the old Communale in Turin.


----------



## Timon91

That Karlsruhe stadium is one of those typical older German stadiums. I didn't know that the Cottbus stadium has got roofs over all four stands, by the way


----------



## mihai_alex

Timon91 said:


> That Karlsruhe stadium is one of those typical older German stadiums. I didn't know that the Cottbus stadium has got roofs over all four stands, by the way


The way it used to look:


















Present(photos 2 and 3 are computer made,but the new stands were finished almost half a year ago):


----------



## Nikodem

Thanks @npmrsi.
This Karlsruhe stadium reminds me ŁKS Łódź stadium:



















And this one is one of the worst in Polish Ekstraklasa, it means football infrastructure must be almost the same in GER and POL.:banana: Naaa, just kidding of course. Anyway - I wouldnt expect such a crapy stadium in 1.Bundesliga.


----------



## JYDA

mihai_alex said:


> The way it used to look:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Present(photos 2 and 3 are computer made,but the new stands were finished almost half a year ago):



It's the 21st century so what's with the pillars??hno:


----------



## berkshire royal

^^
You're telling me normally Germany has top class stadium infrastructure and corners aren't cut. Are Cottbus planning to build a new stadium in the future or is the poor standard because they are in Eastern Germany (Poorer area)? I apologise if I offend people with that question I'm just wondering as to why they would build something so cheap.


----------



## erbse

GDR nostalgia. Beat that.


----------



## Patrick

I don't know where else to post, so here are the Top 100 attendance numbers for Germany 2008/09 until Dec 31 (german).

http://www.stadionwelt.de/neu/community/downloads/top_100/saison0809_05.pdf

The best overall is *football club* BV Borussia Dortmund, averaging 72,934 spec/game.
The best *second-league football club* is 1.FC Kaiserslautern with 34,492 spec/game, ranking at the 12th place.
The best *third-league football club* is TSV Eintracht Braunschweig with 13,559 spec/game, ranking at the 30th place.
The best *fourth-league football club* is 1. FC Magdeburg with 9,206 spec/game, ranking at the 40th place.
The best *fifth-league football club* is 1. FC Saarbrücken with 3,967 spec/game, ranking at the 74th place.
The best non-football club is the *icehockey club* Eisbären Berlin with 13,831 spec/game, ranking at the 29th place.
The best *second-league icehockey club* is Schwenninger ERC with 2,918 spec/game, ranking at the 96th place.
The best *third-league icehockey club* is EC Hannover Indians with 3,464 spec/game, ranking at the 85th place.
The best *basketball club* is Alba Berlin with 10,933 spec/game, ranking at the 34th place.
The best *handball club* is THW Kiel with 10,250 spec/game, ranking at the 36th place.


----------



## christof79

*BayArena 2009 Winter Impressions*


----------



## Carrerra

I feel like it's very snowy in Germany. I've seen so many German winter landscapes with snow here. It's quite good to see a football stadium or field covered with snow. On average how often does it snow there, German friends?


----------



## lpioe

Patrick said:


> I don't know where else to post, so here are the Top 100 attendance numbers for Germany 2008/09 until Dec 31 (german).
> 
> http://www.stadionwelt.de/neu/community/downloads/top_100/saison0809_05.pdf
> 
> The best overall is *football club* BV Borussia Dortmund, averaging 72,934 spec/game.
> The best *second-league football club* is 1.FC Kaiserslautern with 34,492 spec/game, ranking at the 12th place.
> The best *third-league football club* is TSV Eintracht Braunschweig with 13,559 spec/game, ranking at the 30th place.
> The best *fourth-league football club* is 1. FC Magdeburg with 9,206 spec/game, ranking at the 40th place.
> The best *fifth-league football club* is 1. FC Saarbrücken with 3,967 spec/game, ranking at the 74th place.
> The best non-football club is the *icehockey club* Eisbären Berlin with 13,831 spec/game, ranking at the 29th place.
> The best *second-league icehockey club* is Schwenninger ERC with 2,918 spec/game, ranking at the 96th place.
> The best *third-league icehockey club* is EC Hannover Indians with 3,464 spec/game, ranking at the 85th place.
> The best *basketball club* is Alba Berlin with 10,933 spec/game, ranking at the 34th place.
> The best *handball club* is THW Kiel with 10,250 spec/game, ranking at the 36th place.


Do you know what kind of Attendace Alba and Eisbären had before they moved into O2 World?


----------



## Patrick

Eisbären Berlin had 4,695 in 2007/08 as their former hall, the Wellblechpalast, isn't bigger than that 

Alba Berlin's former hall Max-Schmeling-Halle has a capacity of 8,861 and in 2007/08 the average attendance was 6,549.


----------



## lpioe

Thank you. 
So the move to O2 World was a big succes for the 2 teams.
Nice to see it still has terraces for icehockey.


----------



## railcity

Patrick said:


> I don't know where else to post, so here are the Top 100 attendance numbers for Germany 2008/09 until Dec 31 (german).
> 
> http://www.stadionwelt.de/neu/community/downloads/top_100/saison0809_05.pdf
> .



This table is really cool! Especially because it involves various sports. It would be great to have such a table also for other countries.


----------



## Nils

Carrerra said:


> On average how often does it snow there, German friends?



We have quite bad weather during the winter month of course but except for the mountain regions we don't have much snow. Right now we have the longest run of ice cold temperatures for the last 20 years.


----------



## Kampflamm




----------



## Maximus1962

^^ I'm not sure how many times I've said it already but that stadium is amazing!


----------



## Patrick

it's very steep, good for away fans to create atmosphere.

but i don't like the vip-box wall. as in leverkusen, it's too big for my taste.


----------



## www.sercan.de

How many suites will it have?


----------



## npmrsi

www.sercan.de said:


> How many suites will it have?


according to _tsg-hoffenheim.de_ it will have 35-40 suites


----------



## GNU

Suite:










Dressing Room:


----------



## www.sercan.de

Looks more like a meeting room


----------



## npmrsi




----------



## Zeno2

Fantastic stadium, simple and not boring at all. 

The recepy? Steep stands and an impressive roof. Perfect conditions for a good atmosphere.


----------



## Skycrap

Boring stadium. It's just to clean, to modern... I don't know, there is something that I just don't like. 

It reminds me of the AZ stadium:


----------



## mihai_alex

Skycrap said:


> Boring stadium. It's just to clean, to modern... I don't know, there is something that I just don't like.


I think you're just weird.


----------



## Skycrap

mihai_alex said:


> I think you're just weird.


Why? Because I just dislike a stadium? Modern is not always better. Ask Ajaxsupporters about the Amsterdam Arena and the former stadium De Meer.


----------



## mihai_alex

I know about the Amsterdam Arena problem,but this is clearly not the case,they have completely other issues with that stadium.

Some say it looks simple,but I disagree,simple is the AZ stadium,and it clearly doesn't look boring,and I don't really like it either,I said you're weird because you gave weird objections about this stadium(too clean,too modern,too simple)that seem,sorry for saying this,a little bit idiotic.
If you don't like a stadium do it for the right reasons not the wrong ones.


----------



## Patrick

every may like or dislike however he likes to. and if he thinks its too modern, too clean, to simple, no problem. there are people in this world, who prefer










to


----------



## railcity

mihai_alex said:


> Some say it looks simple,but I disagree,simple is the AZ stadium,and it clearly doesn't look boring,and I don't really like it either,I said you're weird because you gave weird objections about this stadium(too clean,too modern,too simple)that seem,sorry for saying this,a little bit idiotic.
> If you don't like a stadium do it for the right reasons not the wrong ones.


Why should that be "wrong" reasons? For many people too clean/too modern/too simple means no soul, no character, no freedom, no individuality.


----------



## mihai_alex

It's clean because it's NEW...and I don't know how could anyone think this stadium's simple.
People are crazy.


----------



## Andre_idol

Hoffenheim will only play in the new stadium next season right?


----------



## Patrick

they will play all the rest of the home games this season. will be opened in a few days.


----------



## Rohne

I can understand the 1860 supporters. Grünwalder Straße is a dream of a stadium while the rubber dinghy in Fröttmaning is just sh**.
My opinion bout Hoppenheim and their new stadium should be clear: no one needs this artificially hyped village club.


----------



## www.sercan.de

I thoight 1860 will move to their old stadium?


----------



## Patrick

their fans want to for understandable and obvious reasons, but the club's president is pro Fröttmaning.

Dresden


----------



## www.sercan.de

Allianz Arena is too big for 1860
Actually its also too small for Bayern.
They should demolish it. Its useless 

Does 1860 (fans) want a new 30k stadium or is it possible to use the old stadium?


----------



## Patrick

Augsburg


----------



## Patrick

I guess, most fans would prefer to use the old stadium (and I guess renovate it a bit), but I don't know exactly.



sercan, can you edit the entry posting in this thread? should be kind of an index-posting.

something like:

Stadiums and Arenas in Germany with its own thread:

BERIN | O2 World | 15,500 | Completed
DORTMUND | Westfalenstadion | 80,552 | Completed
GELSENKIRCHEN | Arena AufSchalke | 61,673 | Completed
MÜNCHEN | Allianz-Arena | 69,901 | Completed

BREMEN | Weserstadion | 43,000 | Under construction

STUTTGART | Neckarstadion | 60,000 | Proposed

Stadiums and Arenas in this thread:

BIELEFELD | Almstadion | 28,008 | Completed | Latest photos
COTTBUS | Stadion der Freundschaft | 22,528 | Completed | Some photos
MÜNCHEN | Olympiastadion | 69,250 | Completed | Some photos
OBERSTDORF | Schattenbergstadion and Heidi-Klopfer-Schanze (Ski-Jumping) | 27,000 and 40,000 | Completed | Some photos
SINSHEIM | Rhein-Neckar-Arena | 30,000 | Completed | Some photos here and at nearly every other page of this thread.

AACHEN | Neuer Tivoli | 32,000 | Under construction | Renderings | Latest photos
AUGSBURG | Impuls-Arena | 30,119 | Under construction | Renderings | Latest photos
BERLIN | Stadion an der Alten Försterei | 23,000 | Under construction | Renderings
DRESDEN | Rudolf-Harbig-Stadion | Under construction | Renderings | Latest photos
FRANKFURT | Stadion am Bornheimer Hang | 10,300 | Under construction | Latest photos
HAMBURG | Millerntor-Stadion | 27,000 | Under construction | Renderings | Latest photos
LEVERKUSEN | Bay-Arena | 30,000 | Under construction | Renderings | Latest photos

FRANKFURT | Rhein-Main-Arena | 12,500 | Proposed | Renderings
OFFENBACH | Stadion am Bieberer Berg | 29,300 | Proposed | Renderings

GELSENKIRCHEN | Parkstadion | 62,004 | Demolished | Latest photos

Stadium-Overview 1. Fußball-Bundesliga 2008/09
Stadium-Overview 2. Fußball-Bundesliga 2008/09 (new teams only)
Stadium-Overview 2. Fußball-Bundesliga 2007/08
Stadium-Overview 3. Fußball-Liga 2008/09
Stadium-Overview Fußball-Regionalliga 2008/09 (Nord, Süd and West)
Stadium-Overview Fußball-Oberliga 2008/09 (prominent teams only)

Of course, this list should be updated from time to time


----------



## www.sercan.de

Pillars?
hno:


----------



## Patrick

Patrick said:


> AUGSBURG | Impuls-Arena | 30,119 | Under construction | Renderings | Latest photos


@sercan: those pillars were already in the rendering that you can now easily find with that list


----------



## GNU

Bayarena:


----------



## SpicyMcHaggis

What will happen to the stand with suits? They will leave it as it is or they will crash it?


----------



## GNU

Theyll leave it as it is.

Webcams:

http://www.bayer04.de/B04/de/bayare...1298-923E8C21-7E96-471A-9165-2A67696B56EF-620
http://www.bayer04.de/B04/de/bayare...1409-C53D2F77-FD7B-4DF2-9FF9-62B0E19215B4-620


----------



## www.sercan.de

Watched the Hoffenheim game yesterday.
IMO the wall is too high. Looked more like Rostock or Schalke


----------



## Zeno2

GNU said:


> Bayarena:
> 
> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3417/3238672574_7058c783d1_b.jpg


I don't like it, not from the inside and not from the outside, just a junction of all kind of different shapes.


----------



## Zeno2

www.sercan.de said:


> Watched the Hoffenheim game yesterday.
> IMO the wall is too high. Looked more like Rostock or Schalke


Nearly all new German stadiums have high walls and little stairs as emergency exits. On TV it looks awful, but seen from the pitch itself it is not that bad.


----------



## Kampflamm

Maybe it's got something to do with the camera angle. It kind of reminded me of White Hart Lane. Just appeared quite steep. The walls definitely didn't look as bad as Rostock's though.


----------



## dande

Bayarena, as it is right now, kind of reminds of NFL stadiums.


----------



## raynsity

www.sercan.de said:


> Watched the Hoffenheim game yesterday.
> IMO the wall is too high. Looked more like Rostock or Schalke


oh come on guys, if you watch a football match no matter from tv or directly at the stadium your main goal is to watch how the game goes not how the stadium is. stop bragging about things that has already passed. the stadium is already built you can do nothing about it anymore.


----------



## Patrick

although it's thankfully already built, you can have an opinion about that.


----------



## SpicyMcHaggis

raynsity said:


> oh come on guys, if you watch a football match no matter from tv or directly at the stadium your main goal is to watch how the game goes not how the stadium is. stop bragging about things that has already passed. the stadium is already built you can do nothing about it anymore.


So he shouldn't have opinion about it then? What are you doing on this forum exactly then?


----------



## www.sercan.de

raynsity said:


> oh come on guys, if you watch a football match no matter from tv or directly at the stadium your main goal is to watch how the game goes not how the stadium is. stop bragging about things that has already passed. the stadium is already built you can do nothing about it anymore.


I like it when i see fans and not just a grey wall or big sponsor ads.

Bernabeu, english stadia or Porto / Benfica stadiums are IMO a better solution.
Allianz Arena has got just a 1,2m high wall.


----------



## Patrick

Patrick said:


> ERFURT | Steigerwaldstadion | 25,400 | Proposed | Renderings


The project will cost approx. 42 Mio. Euros.
Although they will keep the running track, the fans will be closer to the pitch, because they plan to use hydraulics to move the stands to the pitch and back, depending on usage.



> Mit der Hybridlösung möchte die Politik im Interesse aller Bürger handeln und im Zuge des Umbaus ein neues Sport- und Kulturzentrum schaffen.
> 
> Diese beiden Standpunkte schließen sich jedoch nicht aus. Das Erfurter Steigerwaldstadion wird auch in Zukunft eng mit dem Fußball, insbesondere dem Rot-Weiß Erfurt, verbunden sein. Zudem weist die Hybridvariante bisher ungeahnte Vorteile auf. Die neuen Zuschauertribünen sind frei beweglich und können damit viel näher am Spielfeldrand platziert werden – für die Fußballfans kein Vergleich mehr zur jetzigen Situation. Denn momentan sind die Tribünen des Erfurter Stadions nicht nur in einem untragbaren Zustand, sondern, aufgrund der alten Laufbahn, auch sehr weit vom Spielgeschehen entfernt. Dieser Missstand wird mit Hilfe einer Hydraulikanlage behoben, welche es ermöglicht, die Zuschauerränge je nach Nutzung zu positionieren. Dadurch können die RWE-Fans das Spielgeschehen hautnah verfolgen und die Leichtathletikbahn ist trotzdem bei Bedarf verfügbar.


http://www.stadion-erfurt.de/index.php/news/68-hybridloesung-fuer-stadion-gewinn-auf-allen-seiten


----------



## Wezza

Wow i wish we had a couple of stadiums like the Rhein-Neckar-Arena in Australia.


----------



## Patrick

Leverkusen's first game in Düsseldorf, their "home" ground for the next half year:

DFB-Pokal (German Cup), Round of 16 against Energie Cottbus, January 28:


----------



## Alle

One big advantage for Hoffenheim which may have them flying higher than expected, at least for some time, is that, and correct me if i this is not the case, they own their match facility, and they do not have any debts.

I have the impression that the Bundesliga unfortunately has relatively many indebted clubs, and furthermore, few clubs own their own stadiums it seems. Two factors which are large setbacks. Albeit for now it doesnt seem to have hindered them from keeping the best German players in the league.


----------



## Patrick

no, they don't own it.

well, de facto they do. just not on paper. the stadium is owned by an operating company lead by Dietmar Hopp.

of course, this club can't make debts as the billionaire pumps his own money into it.

as the stadium is built now, we can focuse on other projects now.


----------



## GNU

Only 16.000 attended that game in the LTU-Arena (cap. 51.500).
Will be interesting to see how many Bayer can draw in for league games.


----------



## Kampflamm

Alle said:


> One big advantage for Hoffenheim which may have them flying higher than expected, at least for some time, is that, and correct me if i this is not the case, they own their match facility, and they do not have any debts.
> 
> I have the impression that the Bundesliga unfortunately has relatively many indebted clubs, and furthermore, few clubs own their own stadiums it seems. Two factors which are large setbacks. Albeit for now it doesnt seem to have hindered them from keeping the best German players in the league.


I'd say compared to other major leagues (England, Italy, Spain) the levels of debt are actually relatively low in the Bundesliga.


----------



## Patrick

unfortunately most home games against nearby clubs have been in the 1st leg (schalke, köln, dortmund). maybe the dfl feared to see more away than home fans 
Mönchengladbach could do that, as Leverkusen will have their home game against them in the 2nd leg 

and Mönchengladbach is closer to the stadium in Düsseldorf (distance from Borussia-Park via car: ca. 38km) than Leverkusen is (distance from BayArena via car: 51km). Even the Ruhrstadium of VfL Bochum is closer to Düsseldorf than the BayArena (50km). But Bochum has not that many fans


----------



## www.sercan.de

Of course you can put more 
Just look at English stadium record


----------



## bigbossman

www.sercan.de said:


> Of course you can put more
> Just look at English stadium record


lol i mean nowadays, some of the numbers seem more than 2:1

In england they used to pack em in till they couldn't anymore.


----------



## www.sercan.de

IMI depends to city authorities.

BTW, as far as i know Dortmund Südtribüne s 25k at terraces and 12k at seated. But am not sure


----------



## bigbossman

^^ but wouldn't that put the seating capacity at 67,000, i thought it was 65,000?

Pre 2006
83,000 > 68,000

post 2006
80,000 > 65,000

???


----------



## Alemanniafan

*Picture update from the new Tivoli in Aachen*

From march 14th 2009:












































































































@bigbossman you can see the conversion ratio of 2:1 from terracing/seats pretty well here in the SE corner of the new Tivoli:








































































And here the view from the place where the TV camera will be located: (just imagine the big crane will be gone  )









Tons of more pictures to look at here, also from the interior like the Bar for the fans the lounge, toillets, but all only half finished:
http://alemannia-stadion.de/v2/bildergalerie/14_03_2009/575.bild.htm?pos=1&SetMuster=bildergalerie.htm


And now... the aerials!!!



















in the rear the two big equestrian stadiums: (left one of them is the worlds biggest)









in the rear the old Tivoli:



























Sunday march 15th: Alemannia Aachen vs. FC St.Pauli - 1:3 sadly:
(Alemannia Aachen in yellow and black, St.Pauli all in white)









A few more aerials may be viewed here:
http://alemannia-stadion.de/v2/bildergalerie/luftaufnahmen_15_03_2009/577.bild.htm?pos=1&SetMuster=bildergalerie.htm

Edit: And the new updated panoramas can be viewed here: 
http://www.itouring.de/diView/alemannia/neuerTivoliBau/


----------



## www.sercan.de

bigbossman said:


> ^^ but wouldn't that put the seating capacity at 67,000, i thought it was 65,000?
> 
> Pre 2006
> 83,000 > 68,000
> 
> post 2006
> 80,000 > 65,000
> 
> ???


UEFA capacity is 65.718
26 877 standing, but as far as i know the guest stands has got also a standing area.


----------



## bigbossman

www.sercan.de said:


> UEFA capacity is 65.718
> 26 877 standing, but as far as i know the guest stands has got also a standing area.


yeah it does.

80,552 with standing and 65,718 

so ther 26,877 standing places become, 12,043 seats. 

5:2.2 ratio

crude maths

Nice picks allemania fan


----------



## Alemanniafan

The guest Team gets a minimum amount of I think it was 10% of the overall tickets for their suporters. But I'm not quite sure about that official minimum amount. So if there would be lets say 20.000 terracing something like a minimum of 2.000 would have to be for the guests. So there's allways terracing for the guests also. Usually in a far corner on the opposite side of the homefans terracing, but that varies from stadium to stadium. In most stadia the guests terracing is pretty much located where the cheaper seats would be, often on the lower tier if there are two or more somewhere in a corner close to the pitch, but not necessarily.


----------



## Alemanniafan

bigbossman said:


> yeah it does.
> 
> 80,552 with standing and 65,718
> 
> so ther 26,877 standing places become, 12,043 seats.
> 
> 5:2.2 ratio
> 
> crude maths
> 
> Nice picks allemania fan


The ratio differs a little from stadium to stadium, because it's a geometric problem how many seats can ba placed where. If you have an uneven number of rows in the terracing, then you can might not be able to place seats in the last row and that would change the ratio. And the entrances, the stairways all those might not allow you to place "half a seat" or 3/4 of a seat, but the ratio is generally roughly about 2:1. 
Sometimes they cheat a little with the number of terracing also, because there might be some places with obstructed views that don't really matter because the people move a little closer then and legally everything is still fine then. that way they might sell a few more tickets when there's terracing, but when they mount seats they might not place any in those spots because of the restricted view there. It really depends on the stadium itself and what tricks the clubs use or not to "cheat" a little with the maximum capacity.


----------



## IcyUrmel

Alemanniafan said:


> If I really had to make a bet right now, I'd be betting on Leipzig and not on Dresden. As sad and ridiculous this weird szenario is.


I would bet against it. I say Dynamo will not host any official home match in Leipzig (matches removed because of bad fan behavour don't count...). Of course the contractors might continue with their political game for a while, but I have no doubts they finally will come to an agreement.


----------



## christof79

*"BIG LIFT" Part 2....BayArena2009*

*"BIG LIFT" Part 2....*




























more pics...see www.bl04.de


----------



## staff

Great update, Alemanniafan. Love these kinds of update series.


----------



## Alemanniafan

staff said:


> Great update, Alemanniafan. Love these kinds of update series.


 Thank's.



IcyUrmel said:


> I would bet against it. I say Dynamo will not host any official home match in Leipzig (matches removed because of bad fan behavour don't count...). Of course the contractors might continue with their political game for a while, but I have no doubts they finally will come to an agreement.


Well if you speak german, here's some more bad news from Dresden. The city of Dresden is really upset with the soccerclub Dynamo by now:
http://www.sz-online.de/_tools/kurzinfo/info.asp?id=5822&info=1

Those poor Fans there...

Edit: 
Some interesting letters, supposedly from the city of Dresden (the major) and the Soccerclub can be read here:
http://www.blickpunkt-sgd.info/?p=55


----------



## Alemanniafan

Another update from the Tivoli:
(just 5 days of progress)










I'll just post this one single picture because not all that much happened i those 5 days and the most visible progress is the roof seen here in this picture.

The rest of the 43 most recent pictures is viewable here:
http://www.alemannia-stadion.de/v2/bildergalerie/20_03_2009/P0-1-bild.htm?nID=579&SetMuster=bildergalerie.htm

It really is pretty amazing how fast things are advancing here, if you compare those most rencent pictures to those from 5 days before. But just have a look for yourself.


----------



## GNU

Its great that they keep the elements of the roof in club colours.
However the high walls around the pitch are annoying.


----------



## lpioe

Great stadium in AAchen. A stadium that really looks like one from the outside.
I also like the roof in the club colors.
I think though, they should have rounded the corners a bit more. Now some people look at the other stand when looking straightforward.

Thanks for the updates Alemanniafan, keep them coming!
Do you know how steep the stands are?


----------



## Alemanniafan

lpioe said:


> Thanks for the updates Alemanniafan, keep them coming!
> Do you know how steep the stands are?


There's no rea official info on how steep the stands are, but in an imnterview the clubs manager mentioned 35° which might probably be the maximum up in the rear.

Today I just have a link for you where you can view several more nice pictures taken by fans on march 21. They show several details and technical solutions really very nicely and are nice to look at, especially if you're interested in the technological details. I believe they're really worth watching even though naturally of course there's not all that much progress since the last pictures of course. But all those details are really nice to look at. But sadly I can't post comments and explanations on those photos, because I don't have that much time. 

They can be viewed here:
http://www.diekartoffelkaefer.de/bilder/stadionneubau/Tivoli%20Stadion%20Neubau%2027/slides/DSC_4061.html


----------



## IcyUrmel

Dynamo will stay in Dresden

Yesterday, after 9 hours of negotiation, Dynamo, the city and the constructor found a compromise how to finance the new stadium. So Dynamo will stay in its new ground and not move to Leipzig.

Source (in German)


----------



## Patrick

Finally a solution has been found. Would have been too crazy to built a stadium and not to use it.


----------



## Alemanniafan

It really looks like Dynamo will play in Dresden, but this recent compromise still has yet to be approved by each of the different parties. Hopefully this time it'll finally work out in the end and it really wil be signed.
But it surely is good news.


----------



## renco

great news


----------



## Alemanniafan

And another update from the new Tivoli in Aachen:
(pictures from march 25th)








































































The bar for the fans:


















The poor guy who has to drill all these holes:






















































The place in front of the stadium:



























The terracing for the guest fans in the nortwest corner:


















Lots of progress in those few days... :cheers:

A few more pictures can be viewed >>here<<.

And some more pictures from the road and the place in front of the stadium >>here<<.


----------



## bigbossman

I found these on the net. What do you guys reckon the best type of terracing is. 

The hamburg style, 


































the bremen style 

















or the orthodox style???


























dortmund and bayern have a hybrid, 

Bremen style right at the top of dortmund for those with vertigo...










And seats sold as standing places with terracing in the centre at the allianz 



















Hamburgs looks interesting and innovative, Bremens of all the crush barriers, and i like the orthodox style as it's orthodox...

How much would bayerns capacity be if that was all standing behind that goal??


----------



## Alemanniafan

I personally prefer the orthodox style, unless the stand is so extremely steep that you basically need to have the handrails every or every other row.
A hybrid is no good replacement, for terracing only since people stand far less dense in those places. Basically hybrids are hardly any different than standing in a seating area.
The what you call "Hamburg style" is innovative and may be good, if you have different events regularly, some with terracing some all seater and therefore need to convert the terracing area quite often. But I personally prefer standing on concrete steps instead of metal ones, even though that's no big deal, nothing important just a preference. But I prefer the good old orthodox style, since that style can also be converted into terracing. It just takes a bit longer and more effort, because seats have to be mounted and the handrails removed. But that way you get the best of all. You get a decent seating area, with basically no difference to any other in the stadium and you have a real classic terracing orthodox style. You don't need to make compromises and usually those terracing areals don't need to be converted into seating areas very often. So I definetely prefer the good old "orthodox" type of terracing. And I believe the orthodox style with extra seats mounted in case of a conversion is most likely also even less costly than the "Hamburg style".

Hybrids are nice in addition to real terracing, for older peole who don't want to stand 90 minutes or before the match and those that like to have the comfort of a seat and the atmosphere of terracing kind of at the same time, watching the match standing but being able to sit every now and then. 
But hybrids are naturally not a really good replacement for real terracing, just a great extra offer for all those that prefer something in between a seat and terracing for whatever reasons and that's usually exacty what they are, an extra offer. And that is a good way of increasing the amount of terracing for a club, while still being able to sell those places for the price of a seat or nearly the same price, often these hybrid seats just a bit cheaper. And then, if it's an additional option and increases the amount of standing people, it really helps improves the stadiums atmosphere, while still leaving the club with nearly the same income from the sold tickes.


----------



## bigbossman

surely there is just no point in the bayern style. Because if the ball is on thw other side you have stand up to see over the people standing. Why don't they just convert it all to terrracing surely it would also increase capacity by a good 5,000??


----------



## Alemanniafan

Well, the Allianzarena has very little terracing. And the atmosphere is rather poor also.
I guess they probably just wanted to maximize the profit.
And maybe, even if that's what they wanted, they now can't just convert it all into terracing afterwards, because the emergency exits might not be sufficient for the double amount of visitors in those areas, or they simply just don't have the overall stadium permission for more visitors for a larger overal capacity, who knows... (there are several aspects involved with a larger overal stadium capacity, like for example also the minimum number of required parkinglots and several other issues) 
But in the case of Bayern München and the Allianzarena, I guess it's just a matter of maximum profit rather than improving atmosphere or increasing the capacity. 5000 more terracing tickets wouldn't bring any more profit for Bayern München because of the low ticketprice for terracing, so probably just 1860 München might financially profit from such a change if at all, because they can't fill the stadium anyways, but they also might have less income instead, if the overall number of fans doesnt change much then, but just the amount of cheaper tickets. In that case 1860 would even make less profit, which is also not such an unlikely possible szenario.
But I totally agree with you that it would be nicer if they had more normal terracing in the Allianzarena.


----------



## bigbossman

i read that they sell the seats behind the goal as terracing though, surely that's not logical. I read that they do that at kaiserslautern too??

Also do you know if hamburg plan to extend their ground surely that's too small??


----------



## Alemanniafan

You're right they really do sell the hybrid places as terracing tickets for 12-15 €, weird... That surely is interesting.

In Aachen they'll have an extra category for those hybrid places. They're not reserved seats either, so anyone can sit anywhere. And the price is somewhere between the cheapest seats and terracing tickets. And here they decided to offer them additionally, because the fans wanted a larger amount of terracing and some requested a hybrid area, so that was a good compromise here for our new stadium.
In München that's really pretty weird, doesn't make much sense to me either, except for security reasons because the standing crowd isn't as dense.
Well, the Allianzarena isn't such a great stadium anyways. It just looks nice, but it does have a rather poor atmosphere and it doesn't meet the needs of the two clubs which are playing there all too well.


I haven't heard that The HSV in Hamburg is planing to extend their ground.
I don't know anything about such plans, but I'll keep an open eye and ear if I hear or read anything in the near future.
Kaiserslautern basically has a stadium that's a bit too big for the club, they rarely get it sold out and all filled, so they might do that to meet the fans demands for more terracing and cheaper tickets without investing any money into changing the stadium. They just rent the stadium anyways and the state and city do pump quiet a bit of money into the club, so they probably just don't have any interest in investing any more into the stadium, which is sufficient anyways, what the club FCK does and how it sells its tickets to the fans is its own matter and problem. So they probably just do it because of the reason that it's the cheapest and easiest way to meet the fans demands and requierements.


----------



## npmrsi

bigbossman said:


> Also do you know if hamburg plan to extend their ground surely that's too small??


According to Bild.de they currently check how they can expand the stadium but there are no concrete plans.

Bild.de (german)


----------



## www.sercan.de

That would be great
IMO a 3rd tier is possible because there is enough space.
They could go to 70k seats!!!


----------



## bigbossman

Alemanniafan said:


> You're right they really do sell the hybrid places as terracing tickets for 12-15 €, weird... That surely is interesting.
> 
> In Aachen they'll have an extra category for those hybrid places. They're not reserved seats either, so anyone can sit anywhere. And the price is somewhere between the cheapest seats and terracing tickets. And here they decided to offer them additionally, because the fans wanted a larger amount of terracing and some requested a hybrid area, so that was a good compromise here for our new stadium.
> In München that's really pretty weird, doesn't make much sense to me either, except for security reasons because the standing crowd isn't as dense.
> Well, the Allianzarena isn't such a great stadium anyways. It just looks nice, but it does have a rather poor atmosphere and it doesn't meet the needs of the two clubs which are playing there all too well.


Now that 1860 don't own the stadium, surely if they get their finances in order, they can look for their own sight with 50,000??



> I haven't heard that The HSV in Hamburg is planing to extend their ground.
> I don't know anything about such plans, but I'll keep an open eye and ear if I hear or read anything in the near future.





npmrsi said:


> According to Bild.de they currently check how they can expand the stadium but there are no concrete plans.





www.sercan.de said:


> That would be great
> IMO a 3rd tier is possible because there is enough space.
> They could go to 70k seats!!!


Hopefully, and if it has 70k seats, that's like 75,000 with standing places. Another champions league candidate, and they look like they can fill it. Second biggest club in Germany?? or is that Dortmund?



> Kaiserslautern basically has a stadium that's a bit too big for the club, they rarely get it sold out and all filled, so they might do that to meet the fans demands for more terracing and cheaper tickets without investing any money into changing the stadium.


The most i found they averaged was 40,000 in 1998 /99 the year after they won the league. given todays boost in attendance, if they ever got back to the Bundesliga surely they can fill 48,000. Maybe even add a terrace paddock which could up the capacity over 50,000?? Not many teams sell out outside of the top leagues.



> They just rent the stadium anyways and the state and city do pump quiet a bit of money into the club, so they probably just don't have any interest in investing any more into the stadium, which is sufficient anyways, what the club FCK does and how it sells its tickets to the fans is its own matter and problem. So they probably just do it because of the reason that it's the cheapest and easiest way to meet the fans demands and requierements.


I suppose, if demand increases, then obviously it makes sense not to sell seats at the price of standing places.

I'm just so intrigued with how germany is the only major nation that actually didn't bow down to UEFA and it's ban on terracing. It's a shame other countries didn't go the German route. And it's a shame German clubs don't try and fight to re allow terracing in UEFA comps, although i have heard Platini is considering it. Could it be contested in court??


----------



## www.sercan.de

As far as i know Dortmund and Schalke have got more fans.
But i think they cannot expand their stadiums.


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## bigbossman

www.sercan.de said:


> As far as i know Dortmund and Schalke have got more fans.
> But i think they cannot expand their stadiums.


schalke would need an insane amount of money to take off that roof, or to just lower the stands, except at the end where the pitch slides out...

dortmund built there corners terribly, they could've aligned them better imho, with more money of course, and reducing the side and pitch stands to where the pitch actuall ends...


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## Patrick

the Waldau-Stadion in Stuttgart, home of 3rd league team Stuttgarter Kickers, needs some maintenance. The view is pretty...shitty at at least half of the away fans sector. Pic is from today's afternoon at the march against Bayern München II.


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## bigbossman

who actually follows bayern munich 2?? i think it is so unfair that reserve teams can play in your league system.


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## Patrick

bigbossman said:


> who actually follows bayern munich 2?? i think it is so unfair that reserve teams can play in your league system.


for me, it was the first time that I watched a game of them. There were about 300 bayern fans. At leas the athosphere is said to be way better than at most games of the pro team...

But I would also prefer an own league above the fifth tier for the 2nd teams. Especially the 4th tier in our league system is packed with them which makes the Regionalliga pretty unattractive!

RL Nord: 5 of 18 teams are 2nd teams of bigger clubs.
RL Süd: 8 of 18
RL West: 8 of 18.

In the 3rd league, 3 of 20 teams are 2nd teams (VfB Stuttgart, Werder Bremen and Bayern München).


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## SpicyMcHaggis

In Spain they can go even as high as second league. In Germany it is third. It's good for developing youth players tho.


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## GNU

npmrsi said:


> According to Bild.de they currently check how they can expand the stadium but there are no concrete plans.
> 
> Bild.de (german)


It would be great if theyd do it. 70k should be the minimum for an expansion there I guess.



bigbossman said:


> who actually follows bayern munich 2?? i think it is so unfair that reserve teams can play in your league system.


I agree. It prevents other teams from having a chance whilst at the same time it is a financial burden for the established clubs. Its also less exciting.


----------



## IcyUrmel

*Hamburg*



npmrsi said:


> According to Bild.de they currently check how they can expand the stadium but there are no concrete plans.
> 
> Bild.de (german)



Well, that Article just says: "It is *almost obvious* that they are *thinking *how ti increase the capacity"

So I would say it's a typical Bild-style story. Creating lots of rumours without having named any fact at all.

I would say, except for small modifications in the existing stadium, like increasing the terracing capacity, or adding some rows in yet unused areas, nothing will happen in the nearer future. I think they would, if they could, add a third tier to one or two of the stands, but they can't because of the roof.
It is impossible to lift the whole roof the way it is, because this kind of construction is only stable when the whole structure is under permanent mechanic stress.
So, the only way is to remove the whole roof, add third tiers to every stand and every corner, and build a new roof. This would not only lead to at least 18 months without a roof st all, it would also lead to costs of around 100 Mio. €.


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## bigbossman

^^ isn't it worth it though??


----------



## IcyUrmel

bigbossman said:


> Now that 1860 don't own the stadium, surely if they get their finances in order, they can look for their own sight with 50,000??


50,000 is far too much, many of the problems of 1860 are actually caused by a stadium that was not based on the clubs real needs...


They are actually thinking quite intensively about leaving the Allianz Arena, not _*after *_they got their finances in order, but _*in order to*_ get them in order...

Weird sentence, I know.


In the moment, they are paying about 5 Mio. € per annum to play in the arena, and they would even pay more if they relegated to Bundesliga.
Ant they only pay a rent, nothing that creates any value. So, in case they stayed, after the contract ends in 2025 they still would not own anything.


So, 1860 just founded a "Stadium Comission" with experts, fans and club officials. First step is to analize the status quo and check all possible alternatives - including the possibility of staying in Allianz Arena! This is what is happening right now.
In case the comission recommends to leave Allianz Arena, second step would be to negotiate with Bayern FC about the conditions of a possible migration from Allianz Arena.


Of those fans who prefer to leave Allianz Arena, most would like to move back to the traditional venue at Grünwalder Straße, after having transferred the old Ground into a modern Stadium with a capacity of roundabout 35.000.

Nobody really knows if this is a realistic option, the only known thing is that it has been called "impossible" over the last 15 years for political reasons. But as the political structure in the club has changed (and is about to change even more in these days!), everybody is curious about the question what really is possible on the Grünwalder Straße site.


----------



## bigbossman

^^ haven't they got a lot of fans though?? if in the bundesliga surely 35,000 would be too small??

Also i understand why it would be better to build the stadium to get their finances in order


----------



## IcyUrmel

bigbossman said:


> ^^ isn't it worth it though??


The fan inside me thinks it is, but the rest just says: not realistic. 

If every additional seat costs something like 8.000-10.000 Euros, can they ever refinance these expenses? Even when saying that the stadium would be sold out every time (which is far from realistic), seats like that in the very last rows, just under the roof would not bring that much money. Don't forget that tickets in Germany are quite cheap compared to other countries.


----------



## IcyUrmel

bigbossman said:


> ^^ haven't they got a lot of fans though?? if in the bundesliga surely 35,000 would be too small??
> 
> Also i understand why it would be better to build the stadium to get their finances in order



Yes, in Bundesliga 35.000 would be quite small. But that is the mayor problem of the club: Every year, some officials and some fans say that they can't move out because they need the Allianz Arena to play Bundesliga - and every year, they have to sell their best and most talented players to survive with this rent. So, they are paying for a dream that becomes less realistic every year they are dreaming it.

In this moment, after years of disimprovement, 1860 stands exactly where it belongs: place # 10 in second division. Calculating a stadium on the needs of a first league club will just mean that they will never get the money needed for this, what means they will never manage to exit this vicious circle. So better once be a first league club playing in a second league stadium, than always keep a second league club dreaming of a first league stadium.

You see, Bigboss, again, as a fan I would love "my" 1860 to build a ground of 40-45.000. But as a realist (what you automatically become when you favour 1860 for a while) I prefer to dream dreams that have at least a small chance of becoming real once.


----------



## GNU

IcyUrmel said:


> So, the only way is to remove the whole roof, add third tiers to every stand and every corner, and build a new roof. This would not only lead to at least 18 months without a roof st all, it would also lead to costs of around 100 Mio. €.


Theres no doubt that they would need a new roof if theyd put up another tier. 
100 million sounds somewhat reasonable and if you ask me it would be a risk worth taking, especially since Hamburg didnt pay too much for the current stadium.
But youre right, itll probably take a long time until we see an extension there.


----------



## IcyUrmel

*Berlin -> Leipzig*

Finally to a third topic: Although the idea of Dynamo Dresden moving to Leipzig is out of discussion, the Zentralstadion of Leipzig is in the news again. And this time IMHO with some really realistic options.
This August the Athletic World Championchips take place in Berlin. This means at least two weekends in a row when Hertha BSC Berlin cannot host a home match in Bundesliga. It might even become worse, because media speculate that the Athletics OC might close the stadium already some days/weeks in advance for the WC preparations.
Now, the Bundesliga schedule might not be a problem. In some cases, in the past, this schedule was changed to offer the clubs the opportunity to host every match in the home stadium. But in mid August, also the last qualification round takes place, with Hertha if they finish 3rd, and it is unlikely that UEFA would guarantee Hertha the advantage of having the second match at home.
In Berlin, no other stadium matches the needs for Bundesliga football, and for a Champions League match even less. Therefore, it is quite logical that Leipzig is the first alternative.

So, Hertha BSC Berlin, not Dynamo Dresden might be the club travelling to Leipzig next summer to have some "home" matches there.


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## Patrick

But for UEFA-Cup football. Didn't Hertha play in a half empty Jahn-Sportpark in the first rounds this season?


----------



## christof79

*BAyArena 2009 Roof*

*Pics Update of BayArena 2009 Roof Construction....*

:nuts:*====**RING CLOSED**====* :nuts:


----------



## lpioe

I like the idea of the roof overlapping the street a bit.

Do you have a link for a site with all renders availabe for this stadium? On the official homepage I could only find this one:


----------



## Zeno2

I like the ring but not the concrete mess underneath it.


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## npmrsi

lpioe said:


> Do you have a link for a site with all renders availabe for this stadium?


http://www.stadionwelt.de/neu/sw_stadien/index.php?folder=sites&site=neubau_fotos_modell&id=85



IcyUrmel said:


> So, Hertha BSC Berlin, not Dynamo Dresden might be the club travelling to Leipzig next summer to have some "home" matches there.


Today both sides, Berlin and Leipzig, denied this report


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## npmrsi

The Hallesche FC (4. league) published the proposal for the renovation of the Kurt-Wabbel-Stadion. Capacity will be 15,000 and construction is supposed to start May 2010 and finished in July 2011 (costs 17,5 million €)










how it looks now


----------



## IcyUrmel

npmrsi said:


> IcyUrmel said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, Hertha BSC Berlin, not Dynamo Dresden might be the club travelling to Leipzig next summer to have some "home" matches there.
> 
> 
> 
> Today both sides, Berlin and Leipzig, denied this report
Click to expand...

No.

Yes, they deny some statements brought up by media. But no, they don't deny the sentence thay you quote. In fact, today they say almost exactly the same thing I said yesterday: That they expect to be able to have an influence on the Bundesliga schedule, but they don't expect to have the same influence on the Champions league draw - if they qualify. So also the Hertha Officials state that they might play in Leipzig under the certain circumstances.





Patrick said:


> But for UEFA-Cup football. Didn't Hertha play in a half empty Jahn-Sportpark in the first rounds this season?


Yes, they even had quite many matches there in the past: But as far as I can remember, only UEFA Cup Qualification and Intertoto Cup. But this time, we are talking about Champions League Qualification, what is a totally different thing, concerning the needs of UEFA and Club.


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## Patrick

npmrsi said:


> The Hallesche FC (4. league) published the proposal for the renovation of the Kurt-Wabbel-Stadion. Capacity will be 15,000 and construction is supposed to start May 2010 and finished in July 2011 (costs 17,5 million €)


more images:


----------



## Alemanniafan

*And the next update from the new Tivoli in Aachen*

And some more pics from the new Tivoli in Aachen:

(Have a nice tour!)











































































































































































































































One of the two elevators /entrances to the "press-roof":








































































































































































































































































































































































I find it absolutely incredible how fast things are going here on that construction site.

more pics here:http://www.alemannia-stadion.de/v2/bildergalerie/uebersicht/index.htm

Translated for those that don't speak german:
The first image /button on the left:"by date", the second one:"aerials", the third one: "from the locations of the webcams" and the last one: "nightshots"
You can basically find the whole picture-dokumentation there.

Edit: And >>here<< are some nice pictures taken from the top of the largest of the three blue cranes (Nr.1), the one from inside the stadium which has allready been dismantled and removed by now.


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## kazetuner

Alemanniafan said:


>


i dont get this...why are the steps at the end like that? the only thing i could think of i that they're trying to reduce the ammount of concrete used, instead of having a 90° angle between steps :dunno:


----------



## Alemanniafan

kazetuner said:


> i dont get this...why are the steps at the end like that? the only thing i could think of i that they're trying to reduce the ammount of concrete used, instead of having a 90° angle between steps :dunno:


Yes exactly, that's probably the main reason.
Another might be an aesthetic one. The downside of these concrete parts looks like this:








(three steps /rows of seats on the top per prefabricated concrete piece that each rests on one vertical edge at it's upper end. But the pieces from the terracing areas each have 6 steps and no concrete saving slopes on the top.) 
As you can see, there is a vertical edge on every prefabricated piece that rests on the support beams. Those are because of aesthetic reasons, just for the stadium look nicer. I was told that the architec didn't want the visible downside of the tribunes to be just flat. (The way it would have been without those vertical edges. On the 3D renderings the back of the tribunes has "steps" just like a normal tribune has on the top also, by the way.)
I guess basically it is technically just a halfway optimized construction, minimizing the amount of concrete used on one hand, while still giving the stadium an overall interesting look on the other hand, because the downside of those concrete prefabs is visible from outside and therefore architecturally quite an important aspect for the stadiums overall character. 
If you immagine the tribunes being all flat from the outside instead (simmilar to the new stadium in Dresden for example), you'd probably agree the stadium then wouldn't look quite as nice as it does now.
I belive it's sort of just a good way of minimizing the amount of concrete used for a more asthetic, but technically actually less optimal solution. If the main criteria would have been just to try using the minimum amount of concrete however possible, then the tribunes surely would also have looked a bit different than the way they do now.

On the main stand with the business seats and VIP-boxes, where the backside of the tribunes is not visible, the construction looks like this by the way: 








Probably not with "solid" concrete steps but flat "zigzag" pieces instead I suppose.


----------



## GNU

The walls are just too high. Its very reminiscent of the Ostseestadion.
Do they have any purpose aside from providing space for advertising?


----------



## Alemanniafan

GNU said:


> The walls are just too high. Its very reminiscent of the Ostseestadion.
> Do they have any purpose aside from providing space for advertising?


Actually they will end up being be about 1,80m high. The first row is elevated 80 cm above the pitch. The walls have to be there because of security reasons, so people don't run on to the pitch. It wasn't possible here in Aachen to place the first row lower or closer to the pitch than they did. If it would have been lower, the stands would have had to be moved a litlle further back, away from the pitch and 1,80 m isn't even all that high actually, in my opinion, it's definetely not going to bee like in the Ostseestadion in Rostock, more like in Dresden. The height of the walls in the pictures results from the fact that the level of the istadiums interior will be a bit higher than it is now. They'll be putting a heating system and draining in and then soil and the grasspitch on top. And in the front of the main stand there will come the places for the wheelchairs. That's why that particular stand also seems to look higher than the others.


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## GNU

Alemanniafan said:


> Actually they will end up being be about 1,80m high. The first row is elevated 80 cm above the pitch. The walls have to be there because of security reasons, so people don't run on to the pitch. It wasn't possible here in Aachen to place the first row lower or closer to the pitch than they did. If it would have been lower, the stands would have had to be moved a litlle further back, away from the pitch and 1,80 m isn't even all that high actually, in my opinion, it's definetely not going to bee like in the Ostseestadion in Rostock, more like in Dresden. The height of the walls in the pictures results from the fact that the level of the istadiums interior will be a bit higher than it is now. They'll be putting a heating system and draining in and then soil and the grasspitch on top. And in the front of the main stand there will come the places for the wheelchairs. That's why that particular stand also seems to look higher than the others.


Thanks for your explanation, however stadiums in the EPL dont seem to have many security problems which would result from an absence of high walls and fences. And if its about terraces then why are the walls not only in these specific areas of the stadium?
Personally I dont think a wall would stop a person from running onto the pitch, but if they want some sort of obstacle to deter people from doing it, then why not use low railings instead?


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## www.sercan.de

Alemanniafan said:


> If it would have been lower, the stands would have had to be moved a litlle further back, away from the pitch


Why?
Special regulation in Germany or NRW?


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## Alemanniafan

www.sercan.de said:


> Why?
> Special regulation in Germany or NRW?


Honestly I don't really know for sure.
But I'm absolutely sure and I trust our stadium projekmanager in that respect when he said it simply wasn't possible to get the fans closer to the pitch.
80 cm above the pitch is not very high. In most stadia here in germany the first row is in fact 1m or more above the pitch. Our first row is lower than in Cologne or Frankfurt for example.
If you look at the technical recommendations and requirements for stadia:
http://http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/football_stadiums_technical_recommendations_and_requirements_en_8211.pdf 
chapter 4 page 82 (diagram 4j) you can find several ways of ensuring the safety etc...
Here in aachen they chose the elevated seats with exactly the minimum distances of 6m from the side of the pitch and 7.5m behind the goals.
and the elevation isn't even much, it's 90cm elevated above the outer edge and 80cm above the pitch. They event tricked a little by "raising" the pitch 10cm in comparison to the outer edges. In germany you won't find a newly built stadium where the fans are closer to the pitch.
I don't know a bout the uk, some stadia seem to have lower first rows, but I don't know how close to the pitch those are. I actually think it's a really good solution to have the first row elevated 80cm, because that way the view ist better for those sitting in the first rows. If they had not elevated the seats they basically would have had to choose a different one of those options in the fifa requirements or the DFB requirements. I also don't really know why it wasn't possible to get any closer to the pitch and who sitting in what high chair wouldn't let us, but I do know that the ones responsible in our soccerclub even tricked with those 10 cm. 
Outside of the pitch the stadiums inner field is a little sloped. So there's difference in the height of 10cm over these 6m respectively 7.5m distances to the walls of the stands. They really optimized that for sure... they were pretty inventive. 80cm above the pitch is really low for german standards, that is newly build stadia of course. Maybe a reason why the first rows in many stadia might look a little lower than here right now at the moment is that those are all a little further back, like in Cologne or Frankfurt for example, where the first row is in fact higher than ours. And as I said the level of the inside of the stadium will be higher than it is now anyways, so we'll have to wait a little more to see what it'll turn out like in the end.
On the stand with the terracing there will be a fence towards the pitch by the way, but the first row there is also elevated 80cm above the pitch just like on all the other stands. On the renderings they allways had glass instead of concrete in the first rows as you can see here:








That might have been a little nicer, I suppose, but honestly it's not really much of a difference, especially not once there will be commercials placed there, or banners from the fans. But on those renderings you can really see pretty well how low the first row here actually really will be in comparison to other german stadia.

What's really special here by the way is that the substitute benches will be integrated into the main stand. when you look at the middle of the main stand these few extrarows sticking out in the front, that's where the teams will be sitting. And next to those, to the right and left the places for wheelchairs will come.

Maybe in the UK the local regulations are a bit different so the first rows can be placed lower, I don't know. Anyways our new stadium will meet all Uefa and DFB requierements, and that just by barely fulfilling the minimum standards for these distances.


----------



## www.sercan.de

Interesting. This wall is a lil bit special in Germany. Small like Aachen or Munih or huge one like in Gelsenkirchen or Rostock.

At the new Galatasaray stadiums the wall is 1,06m (0,86 above pitch level) and the first ro is just 6cm above pitch level.

But the stands are not so close as it is at Aachen.
goal stands 8,2 and site stands 6,2m


----------



## yyyves

actually, for being a spectator in the stadium itself id rather sit 1 m above the level than 6 cm......and stadium are built for spectators and not for tv cameras...my bit...


----------



## GNU

Alemanniafan said:


> On the renderings they allways had glass instead of concrete in the first rows as you can see here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That might have been a little nicer, I suppose, but honestly it's not really much of a difference, especially not once there will be commercials placed there, or banners from the fans.


Do you know why theyve opted for concrete?



yyyves said:


> actually, for being a spectator in the stadium itself id rather sit 1 m above the level than 6 cm......and stadium are built for spectators and not for tv cameras...my bit...


Personally Ive got nothing against seats that are elevated by 1m or so, however the walls themselves are usually being built fairly higher than the first row as is the case here, and I dont think that this is beneficial to the atmosphere in a stadium.


----------



## Alemanniafan

And new pics from the new Tivoli again (from yesterday, April 8th 09):

The remaining gap in the roof construction, soon to be closed:









The support for one of the two Video screens:













































The roof over the south stand with the terracing, allready almost half closed:









Draining:













































And as allways: more pics >>here<<.

I find the speed of the progress here on the constructionsite on these last days/weeks truely mindblowing.

Have some happy easter holidays!


----------



## Alemanniafan

GNU said:


> Do you know why theyve opted for concrete?
> 
> 
> 
> Ive got nothing against seats that are elevated by 1m or so, however the walls themselves are usually being built fairly higher than the first row as is the case here, and I dont think that this is beneficial to the atmosphere in a stadium.


Maximum should be 1,80m
90cm elevated seats in comparison to the very outer edge of the stadiums innner field + the usual 90 cm in front of the seats. But there seems to be a handrail or something like that yet still to come at the top end of this wall which would be those 90cm high then, so the wall should be a little lower, I'd guess 10 to 15 cm maybe?
So I suppose the wall would be somewhere between 1,65m 1,70m if there will be a handrail or 1,80 if not and there'll just be something flat on top.

I really don't know why they chose concrete instead of glass or a metal construction. I suppose because it's fairly cheap very solid and long lasting without any need for repairs in the next 10 000 years maybe?


----------



## GNU

Alemanniafan said:


> Maximum should be 1,80m
> 90cm elevated seats in comparison to the very outer edge of the stadiums innner field + the usual 90 cm in front of the seats. But there seems to be a handrail or something like that yet still to come at the top end of this wall which would be those 90cm high then, so the wall should be a little lower, I'd guess 10 to 15 cm maybe?
> So I suppose the wall would be somewhere between 1,65m 1,70m if there will be a handrail or 1,80 if not and there'll just be something flat on top.
> 
> I really don't know why they chose concrete instead of glass or a metal construction. I suppose because it's fairly cheap very solid and long lasting without any need for repairs in the next 10 000 years maybe?


Well I really do think that if the seats are already elevated, the walls should not be higher than the first row. From then on railings are better alternatives.


----------



## Alemanniafan

GNU said:


> Well I really do think that if the seats are already elevated, the walls should not be higher than the first row. From then on railings or glass are better alternatives.


Yes I agree, but they'll be putting advertisements there anyways. At least I expect that to be most likely. And if not, then this wall will surely be where the fans would place their banners. So on TV or real life it wouldn't really make much of a difference what's behind those advertisements or banners. So considering that, a concrete wall probably is a pretty reasonable and good thing also.
But I'm pretty sure the club will have to use that space for advertising. Because they really need the extra money since we decided not to sell the stadium name but to keep the old name Tivoli instead. And there is not all that much space for advertisements available in this stadium. So that wall will most definetely be used for that, I'm pretty certain about that anything else would be a surprise and rather stupid actually, after all we really need to generate some advertising income somewhere. Keeping the stadiumname surely is challenging enough allready. And the fans are allready lending the club over 4,2 mio € for the new stadium and being able not to sell the name, which is actually a really large sum for a soccerclub that just barely has 10.000 members in a city with about 250.000 inhabitants.

Ok, I gotta leave now.. 
You enjoy your easter holidays folks!


----------



## staff

Can't help comparing Tivoli to the new Malmö Stadium. 
What's the capacity, and how many seats and standing places are there respectively?

The stadium looks really great. I think I prefer one-tier for stadiums of this size, as it simplifies expansions. The Malmö Stadium will be difficult to expand when needed.


----------



## likasz

As I know for Bundesliga capacity will be ca. 33,000 (ca.19,500 seats) and for international games capacity will be reduced to 25,000 (all-seater)


----------



## staff

^^
Thanks.


----------



## Alemanniafan

staff said:


> Can't help comparing Tivoli to the new Malmö Stadium.
> What's the capacity, and how many seats and standing places are there respectively?
> 
> The stadium looks really great. I think I prefer one-tier for stadiums of this size, as it simplifies expansions. The Malmö Stadium will be difficult to expand when needed.


The new Tivoli surely won't ever be expanded, that's about a 100% sure for several reasons.
First the fan potential in the region isn't really much larger than filling the 32.900 places in the stadium frequently, because we have several big clubs fairly close near by, the two local main rivals: Borussia Mönchengladbach and the 1.FC Köln, plus right next door on the other side of the border in the Netherlands Roda JC Kerkrade and in Belgium Standard Lüttich.
So unless we play in the first Bundesliga for several years in a row, maybe even more than a decade, the stadiums capacity will surely be completely sufficient and probably even still then. 
The other possible reason that might actually provide the Alemannia Aachen with a definete larger fanbase, would be if Roda Kerkrade went bankrupt. Because there's a really big friendship between the fans of our two neigboring teams, once because of the history Roda Kerkrade originates from a dutch /german club founded by coalmine workers nearby in a town that still belongs to the wider area of Aachen. And most importantly, because the club gave us some of their old seats when they moved into their new stadium for our old Tivoli as a gift, around a time when our club was nearly bankrupt, and had very little money and only the really ancient wooden benches to sit on, that was just back in winter break 1999/2000  by the way.
Now Roda Kerkrade has some financial difficulties and the clubs officials even planed a fusion with Fortuna Sittard that was just called off a few days ago. 
So if they really would go bankrupt which i don't think will ever happen, but of ot would, then our fan potential on the oher side of the border theoretically would sure rise quite noticeably. The hardcore rfanbase from roda would surely come to Aachen then, like quite a large part was allready planning to do so, in the case of that fusion. 
But otherwise... it sure won't be likely go up much in the nearer future. Not unless we played in the Championsleague or Uefacup regularly.

But the main reason why the stadium most likely will never ever be expanded is that it is inside the city of Aachen, there are houses pretty close by. And with the new stadium it was allready quite a difficult task to meet all the legal standards. Noise- floodlight- pollution, the increase in traffic etc.... the new stadium is basically really on the edge of what's legally possible here at this location. And just the home matches of regular soccer season almost fill the legally possible list of events, that may be held in our stadium, two or three DFB cup matches in addition to that... and the amount is allready used up, all additional events need an additional extra permission and have to be declared as a "rare event" to be legally possible. Because the legal standards can't be met anymore then. So it's possible to have a little bit more events in the stadium, but only as an exception not as regular events.
A bigger stadium wouldn't meet the legal norms here inside the city anymore, because the influence on the housing area nearby would be inacceptable and actually illegal.
We allready have restrictions here with the new stadium on how many floodlights on all the various soccerfields, the stadium and the training places, may be turned on at the same time. And at what time of the day -evening etc. Plus the noise pollution and whatever else...
So it surely is more than unlikely that our new stadium could ever be expanded.
Not at any reasonable cost, since one would basically have to move the entire nearby housing area away.

We just chose a single tier layout, because the fans preferred it. 
a) because it's better for the atmosphere,
b) because the old Tivoli has only one tier also. 
and c) simply just because the Fans here wanted to have it that way the club asked which proposal the fans prefferre we voted for the proposal we're building now and so we got one single tier.
d) the architect of our stadium studied at the university here in Aachen and watched the clubs matches as a fan. So he just knew what suits our club best and really managed to design a stadium that really fits here perfectly. And that's probably exactly why so many fans voted for this proposal, about 65%, without even knowing who and what company was behind it.

At first the club used to plan with two options by the way a smaller one with 25.000 paces and a larger one with 32.000.
When we suddenly played in the first Bundesliga, the clubs officials decided to go with the larger 32.000 version. The proposal now even has some 900 places extra, for free basically, which interestingly is almost exactly the capacity the organized fans figured a new stadium should have in their first public and official stadium outline statement towards the club. 
We got organized very early here and allways took part in the process actively with official demands and suggestions. And most of those actually did come true with this new stadium. That's why the stands are so steep and close to the pitch for example and why the terracing has fairly large amount, about 35% of the overall capacity and some more minor things also, like not having these electronic payment cards for the guest fans, so they can pay with cash not like in several other new stadia here in germany, etc. etc. etc.
and most of all, the reason why we're building where we're building now and not out in the middle of nowhere by the freeway.
So we here really managed to get one of these very few brand new 
"Soccerfan stadiums" and not just a standard sterile-businessmachine-moneymaking-arena instead like they're so common elswhere. 
That is despite all the necessary modernisations and financial requirements of the entire project and that come with a modern stadium of course.

But now finally I'll really be gone offline for longer. 

@ staff I also allways compare Malmö and our Tivoli here  and I really like 'em both very much, they're both great unique and have plenty of local character. But naturally I sure prefer our Tivoli here of course, just like you surely prefer Malmö I suppose.  :cheers:


----------



## likasz

Are any plans to build a big (I mean 10,000+) new indoor arena somewhere in Germany?


----------



## npmrsi

likasz said:


> Are any plans to build a big (I mean 10,000+) new indoor arena somewhere in Germany?


Well, not really. In Kassel and Frankfurt there were some plans but right now it doesn't look like they will be realised in the next years.


----------



## amidcars

Like Hoffenheim IMO

The best 25-30k new german stadiums are IMO Duisburd and Wolfsburg

Bielefeds one became now a very good one with the new stand.


----------



## Kampflamm

The Bundesliga set a new record last weekend, when an average of 50,500 people attended the games.


----------



## GNU

Concept for a new stadium in Karlsruhe










Alternatively the old Wildparkstadion could be redeveloped










http://www.ka-news.de/fotos/Bilddetail/cme5837,226178.html
http://www.ka-news.de/fotos/Bilddetail/cme5218,193239.html?SORT=PRIO


----------



## staff

Thanks for the info, Alemanniafan. kay:


----------



## bigbossman

GNU said:


> Concept for a new stadium in Karlsruhe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alternatively the old Wildparkstadion could be redeveloped
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ka-news.de/fotos/Bilddetail/cme5837,226178.html
> http://www.ka-news.de/fotos/Bilddetail/cme5218,193239.html?SORT=PRIO


capacity?


----------



## npmrsi

bigbossman said:


> capacity?


The first proposal 42,000 (47,000 with terracing) and the capacity of the redeveloped Wildparkstadion was indicated with 35,000 but I don't know if thats still correct.


----------



## Kampflamm

Another pic from Stadionwelt


----------



## staff

Can't see the photo, Kampflamm. Could you link it, or rehost it?


----------



## bigbossman

npmrsi said:


> The first proposal 42,000 (47,000 with terracing) and the capacity of the redeveloped Wildparkstadion was indicated with 35,000 but I don't know if thats still correct.


47,000 nice, are karlsruhe a big club then or is that just the standard around 45,000 like 30,000 seems to be in England??


----------



## lpioe

^^ Their current stadium is really bad, probably the worst in the 1. Bundesliga:









Nevertheless they average more than 28k per game with a capacity of about 30k.
So I think they are right to build a stadium that is quite a bit bigger.


----------



## bigbossman

^^ that's one ugly stadium, and i agree definately should go larger.

what would be the time frame of the new stadium?


----------



## StoneRose

Still, I think 47.000 is too big for Karlsruhe.


----------



## Alemanniafan

next update from the new Tivoli in Aachen.
(pictures from 18.04.09)



















toillets:













































fanshop and fan bar:



























business lounge:



























The outer steel cables that are supporting the roof going through one of the boxes in the east facade:









Vip boxes:









Parkdeck and the equestrian stadium in the rear:









outer steel cables holding the roof and the construction site of the parkdeck:









The entire roof structure of the stadium is allready completed:









videoscreen:









Up on the top of the main tribune the police demanded a command/ surveillance center to be added:



























The transparent front of the roof (goes all the way around):




































big isn't it? 
(those large concrete parts at the very inner edge of the roof, between two support beams each weigh 7.5 tons)


















the second videoscreen:



















The parkdeck (it will have two soccerfields for training with artificial turf on top):


















clubcolours everywhere :lol::


















who ever:



























a lot of glass is allready installed:


















More pictures as allways >>here<< on the official website.

There's also a very nice gallery from a fan >>here<<. Especially if you speak german it's really wort looking at, because it has very nice explaining titles under every picture. I find his gallery even a little bit better than the one from the official website, but I couldn't post those pictures here.




Edit:
Here a few nice sunset protos from a fan:






























































































































Pictures from www.alemannia-luke.de


----------



## Robin

GNU said:


> Well I really do think that if the seats are already elevated, the walls should not be higher than the first row. From then on railings are better alternatives.


Absolutely! 
In Bundesliga games there will be advertisements there "anyway".. (bad enough..)
But what about those international games? German nationalteam playing in Aachen.. at those kind of games there is a certain advertisement (much smaller than thos ugly big Rostock/Schalke/...-like advertisements in Bundesliga games). And the ugly concret wall will be seen then! Why not have steel railings instead? 
In Bundesliga games you could put the big advertisements also there.. and international games would look sooo much better!

Just look at Munich's Allianz Arena. That's maybe the best you can build (with those strict fifa-regulations!)


----------



## Alemanniafan

Robin said:


> ...
> But what about those international games?


Well there probably won't be very many international matches here in the new Tivoli.
And if probably rather just the womens national team or youth teams U21 U19etc. If our mens national team should ever play here then probably just for a test match, simply because there are bigger stadiums nearby in Cologne and Gladbach. 
Maybe some other national mens team might play here in Aachen one day, like Turkey did in Frankfurt once. 
But surely international matches will most likely be a very rare exception.
Somewhere I read, the club doesn't even install any preparations for converting the terracing into a seating area. I don't know how serious that info is, but I heard that it'll only be done later sometime whenever the day might come that there is an international match held here in this stadium. 
I guess the seats will probably be installed for an equestrian event in this stadium before anything international happens soccerwise.


----------



## www.sercan.de

http://www.vize.com/?p=2
Mainz stadium animation


----------



## Alemanniafan

www.sercan.de said:


> http://www.vize.com/?p=2
> Mainz stadium animation


Probaly a proposal right?
Because as far as I know Mainz hasn't decided anything much yet, they're still in an early planing state.


----------



## Patrick

Alemanniafan said:


> Probaly a proposal right?
> Because as far as I know Mainz hasn't decided anything much yet, they're still in an early planing state.





Allgemeine Zeitung Mainz said:


> Keine Rolle in den Planungen der 05er spielt offenbar der Entwurf, der im Internet auf der Homepage der tschechischen Firma “Vize architectual renderings" (www.vize.com) zu sehen ist.


_The concept shown on the homepage of the czech company "Vize architectural renderings" are irrelevant in the plannings of the 05ers._


----------



## likasz

I have a little question:Is true that the arch of Koeln Arena were produced in Poland?I'm asking because I can't find a confirmation at polish websites.

Here is the info from the German Wikipedia:


> Der Bogen, der in Polen produziert wurde, ist im beleuchteten Innenraum für Wartungszwecke begehbar


----------



## npmrsi

Hamburg will upgrade their stadium. Capacity will go up from 57,000 to 61,322. In the Nordkurve 4000 new standing places will be created where seats were before and another 1,000 at the north end of the pitch. Additionally 1,500 seats under the roof will be transformed into 3,000 standing places.










On the Südtribüne 800 new business seats and 17 new suites will be built. 










The expansion will also include a "Kid's and Service World"










Construction starts this summer and will be done for the 2010/11 Bundesliga season. The total cost will be ca. 13 million euros.

More information in german: http://www.hsv.de/index.php?id=26013


----------



## Alemanniafan

But St. Pauli currently seems to have problems getting money from the banks to continue with the expansion of the Millerntor Stadion, because of the credit crisis.
Do other clubs around the world have simmilar problems getting money from the banks like St. Pauli has? Does anyone know of other clubs that have to delay/ postpone their expansion plans because of the current crisis?


----------



## www.sercan.de

So the all-seater capacity will be nearly the same?
Just new BS and Suites
So total suites will rise to 67.


----------



## GNU

Alemanniafan said:


> Well there probably won't be very many international matches here in the new Tivoli.


Cup games could be mentioned aswell.

As for Hamburg: I think its great that theyll get additional suites in and that Service World looks allright too. Just dont like the idea of replacing seats with terraces.



> _"Zusätzlich werden im unteren Bereich der Nordtribüne weitere Stufen gebaut, wodurch die Stehplatzanzahl weiter erhöht wird." _


Does that mean that they are they pulling the stand down to the pitch?


----------



## bigbossman

npmrsi said:


> Hamburg will upgrade their stadium. Capacity will go up from 57,000 to 61,322. In the Nordkurve 4000 new standing places will be created where seats were before and another 1,000 at the north end of the pitch. Additionally 1,500 seats under the roof will be transformed into 3,000 standing places.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the Südtribüne 800 new business seats and 17 new suites will be built.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The expansion will also include a "Kid's and Service World"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Construction starts this summer and will be done for the 2010/11 Bundesliga season. The total cost will be ca. 13 million euros.
> 
> More information in german: http://www.hsv.de/index.php?id=26013


Brilliant, would've been so easy for Hamburg to standstill, so glad they are recognising demand and catering too it. 

Now if Schalke could find away to take off that roof...


----------



## npmrsi

GNU said:


> Just dont like the idea of replacing seats with terraces.


That's what the fans wanted, so I think it's ok.



GNU said:


> Does that mean that they are they pulling the stand down to the pitch?


Sounds like that, but I'm not sure!


----------



## Qaabus

Compared to what Brazil seems to be planning for 2014, South Africa is doing awesome.


----------



## bigbossman

A couple of months ago in this thread someone said cologne were looking at trying to expand, any news??


----------



## Patrick

unfortunately not


----------



## bigbossman

^^ that's a shame, they shouldn't be standing still at this boom time. More fans through the doors = more money and more fans for the future!

What about the new hertha stadium mooted?? they have been getting 70,000+ for quite a few games in a row now!


----------



## Alemanniafan

There are also new updated 360° Panorama views available of the new Tivoli you can view them >>here<<.

If you click on the upper left (smaller) textline saying:" > anderen Standort auswählen " a map pops up and you can switch to other locations.
I really like these panoramas and think they're well worth having a look at. The yellow roof of course is much nicer and far more impressive in real life than it is on pictures, but it sure is kinda fun to zoom around and look at all the details.
And since you can also look at the inside from several differnt angles you really get a pretty good feel for what the stadium is /will be like, especially when you expand to full screen.
And when you change the date the current view switches to the same view of the chosen date, so you can see the construction progress really well also.
And it all loads pretty fast.


----------



## GNU

I do like that yellow theyve used for the seats in Aachen.


----------



## thun

About Hertha: that's because this year for the first time since at least 30 years they're somehow on the top (at least it feels like that... ). Regarding the fact that they play on a huge, beautiful ground only four years old, I think we'll have to wait for a long time to see a new stadium...


Btw., I don't know if it was mentioned already: It is planned that the Veltins Arena (Schalke) will soon hold the attendance world record for an ice-hockey match: Next year's World Championship (which will be played at Cologne and Mannheim) will be opened there, the capacity is some 75,000 people (and I think two thirds of he tickets are sold already) (current European record is some 30,000 at Stade de Suisse in the Bern derby, the world record an NHL match held in a football stadium with some 74,000 visitors).


----------



## bigbossman

^^ yes but only a couple of months ago they wanted a new stadium by all accounts!!


----------



## Kampflamm

I doubt Hertha can finance a new stadium. The city's broke and it's just renovated the Olympiastadion for over €200 mio so Hertha won't be getting any money from the mayor.

About Cologne...is it even possible to expand the stadium?


----------



## GNU

Bayarena


----------



## Carrerra

Ohhh it's almost done. It's approximately at 92.50052458% completion according to my calculation.


----------



## StoneRose

Gladbach's fans didn't like the seats in Düsseldorf's stadium aparently:

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8968/1605091752.jpg

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9641/1605091753.jpg


----------



## JYDA

Update from Augsburg's new stadium.




















What's the deal with the open corner??






















































Many more pictures here http://www.impuls-arena.de/pages/em.php?galerie=Eckhart/07.05.2009&page=1


----------



## metros11

StoneRose said:


> Gladbach's fans didn't like the seats in Düsseldorf's stadium aparently:
> 
> http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8968/1605091752.jpg
> 
> http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9641/1605091753.jpg


Perhaps it was the result, not the seats that the didn't like.


----------



## Alemanniafan

Next update from the new Tivoli in Aachen:
(pictures from 22.05.09)







































































































































The rainwater will flow through Pipes embedded into the concrete pillars.






































































































































































































More pictures, as allways >>here<<.


----------



## GNU

The yellow roof looks great.


----------



## Carrerra

No, all look great! Another masterpiece in football stadium history


----------



## Suomi 777

Wow! And how do you like our new stadium?


----------



## Andrew_za

Beautiful stadium!


----------



## Suomi 777

Andrew_za said:


> Beautiful stadium!


Thank you. This is a stadium in the town of Khimki, Russia.


----------



## Alemanniafan

Suomi 777 said:


> Thank you. This is a stadium in the town of Khimki, Russia.


Aha.
It looks like it has nice steep stands very close to the pitch and I also like that it's very classic with open corners and has a high main stand.
The only thing I don't like too much, is that the wall around the pitch looks like it really is very high.
And to me it sure looks bigger than a stadium with a capacity of 18.000 if that capacity I found is correct.


----------



## bigbossman

Is there any truth to rumour that the minimum capacity for champions league group games is 30,000?? IF so what are Wolfsburg gonna do?? Play in Hannover??


----------



## bigbossman

alemanniafan what sort of crowds are aachen expecting next season?? Full houses every week to welcome the new stadium in? or early/mid 20,000s


----------



## Suomi 777

this is one of the few classic stadiums in Russia. There is still Lokomotiv.


----------



## Alemanniafan

bigbossman said:


> alemanniafan what sort of crowds are aachen expecting next season?? Full houses every week to welcome the new stadium in? or early/mid 20,000s


In an interview the clubs manager said the club is calculating the financial plans rather conservatively with an average of 23.000 visitors which would be an increase of about 25% to the average of 18.400 in the current old stadium with a maximum capacity of only 21.200 places (of which just 3650 are seats). But he said they're also expecting that especially in the first season in the new Tivoli this number was pretty likely to be exceeded.

In another Interview the clubmanager also said the club Alemannia Aachen will have to pay about 6.5 mio€ in the first year to finance the stadium. 
They're planing to finance the stadium within 25 years. The next season the club is planing with an overall income of about 24 to 25 mio € of which about 1/3 rd, would be generated by the stadium (ticketing etc...). 1/3 rd via the TV money and 1/3rd via sponsoring which would be about 8mio € each.
(These numbers all without guarantee and only, if I understood the statements in this interview here correctly of course.  )

Edit: 
6.5 mio € per year (at least in the beginning) is quite a large amount, I believe. 1860 Munich pays less than than (I think it was around 5.2Mio€) for renting the Allianzarena, but the difference here is that the Alemannia Aachen really runs the stadium all by itself and therefore fully keeps all of the different incomes generated with it will. And it will of course own the stadium completely once it's fully refinanced.


----------



## JYDA

bigbossman said:


> Is there any truth to rumour that the minimum capacity for champions league group games is 30,000?? IF so what are Wolfsburg gonna do?? Play in Hannover??


I do know that Aalborg hosted group games in what looked like a League 2 ground


----------



## ØlandDK

JYDA said:


> I do know that Aalborg hosted group games in what looked like a League 2 ground


True...I think that you can get a dispansation if you play the CL for the first time. 10.500 seats:
http://www.aabsport.dk/aabfodbold/energinordarena

I don't really get the UEFA rules though.


----------



## bigbossman

what is i thought UEFA changed the rules recently, hence why villareal have been expanding their stadium...


----------



## kanye

bigbossman said:


> Is there any truth to rumour that the minimum capacity for champions league group games is 30,000?? IF so what are Wolfsburg gonna do?? Play in Hannover??


where's the problem in wolfsburg?

Volkswagen Arena in Wolfsburg 30,000


----------



## bigbossman

^^ it's not all seater...


----------



## likasz

^^ it can't come true because filled in 100% stadium with 15,000 seats is better than stadium with 30,000 seats filled in 50%.


----------



## bigbossman

^^ ??


----------



## lpioe

^^ he means a minimum cap of 30k would be stupid because some teams are just not big enough for such a stadium. And playing in a full 15k stadium is better for them than in a half full 30k stadium.

Btw Villareal capacity is still below 30k, it's about 25k now.


----------



## likasz

^^I used a wrong word - sorry
thank you for your help lpioe


----------



## bigbossman

lpioe said:


> ^^ he means a minimum cap of 30k would be stupid because some teams are just not big enough for such a stadium. And playing in a full 15k stadium is better for them than in a half full 30k stadium.
> 
> Btw Villareal capacity is still below 30k, it's about 25k now.


1. they're still expanding though i thought...

2. Whoever isn't big enough to fill 30,000 for champions league games, doesn't deserve to be in the tournament. Even FC Thun from Switzerland managed it when they had to play in Bern! 

3. It's about quality standards surely, regardless of whether they fill it or not...


----------



## Patrick

bigbossman said:


> 1. they're still expanding though i thought...
> 
> 2. Whoever isn't big enough to fill 30,000 for champions league games, doesn't deserve to be in the tournament. Even FC Thun from Switzerland managed it when they had to play in Bern!


Well, although I don't like Wolfsburg at all and hope, they won't survive the group stages, I have to disagree here.

Qualification for the Champions League doesn't not depend on fan base, but on sporting qualification. They managed to qualify pretty well.


----------



## ØlandDK

Patrick said:


> Qualification for the Champions League doesn't not depend on fan base, but on sporting qualification. They managed to qualify pretty well.


So did AAB last season and there were only 10500 in their stadium.


----------



## bigbossman

^^yeah but they qualified on the back of Volkwagens money, they can obviously fill 30,000 for big games, that isn't an issue. I am saying if a club couldn't then they shouldn't be allowed, and what self respecting club couldn't??


----------



## Marin Mostar

I think/hope that the quality of the stadium is the only thing that is/should be important. Isn`t it better to play at 15k modern stadium rather an old one with 30k??


----------



## bigbossman

A 10,500 seater stadium doesn't mean they couldn't fill 30,000 for 3 champions league games, 2 of which against former champions (Celtic and the holders man united)...


----------



## bigbossman

Marin Mostar said:


> I think/hope that the quality of the stadium is the only thing that is/should be important. Isn`t it better to play at 15k modern stadium rather an old one with 30k??


yeah of course, but that's not the point.


----------



## ØlandDK

bigbossman said:


> A 10,500 seater stadium doesn't mean they couldn't fill 30,000 for 3 champions league games, 2 of which against former champions (Celtic and the holders man united)...


I actually doubt that they could fill a 30.000 stadium...


But back on topic - this is about German stadiums


----------



## likasz

I have a few questions about Toyota Handball Bundesliga:

1.What is the averange attendance in the league
2.Which arena is bigger SAP Arena or Color Line Arena?I mean capacity for handball.
3.Why Gummersbach (one of the best teams in handball history) has so low attendance.When I'm watching HBL on TV I see that only the 1st tier of Koeln Arena is filled.


----------



## ØlandDK

likasz said:


> I have a few questions about Toyota Handball Bundesliga:
> 
> 1.What is the averange attendance in the league


This season: 4749.32 



likasz said:


> 2.Which arena is bigger SAP Arena or Color Line Arena?I mean capacity for handball.


SAP Arena: 13200
Color Line Arena: 12810



likasz said:


> 3.Why Gummersbach (one of the best teams in handball history) has so low attendance.When I'm watching HBL on TV I see that only the 1st tier of Koeln Arena is filled.


No idea actually. Guess handball isn't popular in that area. There's room for 19250 spectators in the arena and they have a average of 5008.

_all info is from www.toyota-handball-bundesliga.de_

That said - my favorite team is SG Flensburg-Handewitt. :banana:


----------



## christoph

^^

I think they play only top games in "Cologne Arena". The others are played in "Eugen-Haas-Halle" in Gummersbach (which hay a capacity of less than 2000).


----------



## Patrick

my guess is because VfL Gummersbach is actually a team from Gummersbach, a town, 50km away from Köln. Their own hall in Gummersbach has a capacity of only 2,100, that's why they play in Köln. I think, most Kölner just don't identify with a team from outside the city and don't want to support them in bigger numbers.


----------



## bigbossman

a question, have schalke ever thought of adding more terracing to increase the capacity?? Like behind the other goal or the upper tier of the current end. I read that Gladbach have an option to convert their other end to terracing if demand dictates, is this true?


----------



## GEwinnen

bigbossman said:


> a question, have schalke ever thought of adding more terracing to increase the capacity?? *Like behind the other goal or the upper tier of the current end.*



1. The lower tier is made from metal, it could be too slippy or to much weight for this part of the stadium:










This part is constructed like a bridge (85 m wide), it is retractable. During a game it is supported by movable pillars.

2. The upper tier is too steep for terracing.


----------



## bigbossman

^^ surely they could strengthen it?? How steep exactly is the upper tier, it doesn't look much steeper than the lower tier from pictures??


----------



## GEwinnen

bigbossman said:


> ^^ surely they could strengthen it?? How steep exactly is the upper tier, it doesn't look much steeper than the lower tier from pictures??


lower tier: 23°
upper tier: 34°


----------



## DaveyCakes

bigbossman said:


> 2. Whoever isn't big enough to fill 30,000 for champions league games, doesn't deserve to be in the tournament. Even FC Thun from Switzerland managed it when they had to play in Bern!


It's a football tournament, not a popularity contest.


----------



## metros11

bigbossman said:


> Is there any truth to rumour that the minimum capacity for champions league group games is 30,000?? IF so what are Wolfsburg gonna do?? Play in Hannover??


VW Arena seats just over 30,000 people.


----------



## metros11

bigbossman said:


> ^^ it's not all seater...


It is. The terraces have special seating that folds up when not needed.


----------



## Patrick

it's planned to re-fill the Zentralstadion in Leipzig. These days, a new club will be founded. Rasenball Leipzig (RB Leipzig). RB also stands for Red Bull, but investor names are forbidden (Bayer and Wacker are exceptions these clubs were founded as teams of the local factories back in the days). They take over SSV Markranstädt (the town borders Leipzig) in the 5th league (Oberliga Nordost-Süd) and I'm sure they will spend a lot of money to make it to the Bundesliga one day. uke:


----------



## metros11

Patrick said:


> it's planned to re-fill the Zentralstadion in Leipzig. These days, a new club will be founded. Rasenball Leipzig (RB Leipzig). RB also stands for Red Bull, but investor names are forbidden (Bayer and Wacker are exceptions these clubs were founded as teams of the local factories back in the days). They take over SSV Markranstädt (the town borders Leipzig) in the 5th league (Oberliga Nordost-Süd) and I'm sure they will spend a lot of money to make it to the Bundesliga one day. uke:


Do you have a link for this? I'm interested because my team is owned by Red Bull.


----------



## Patrick

unfortunately only in german (google translations are linked), more to follow maybe in the next days 

http://translate.google.com/transla...ontent/98712.html&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=

http://translate.google.com/transla...ontent/98980.html&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=


----------



## bumdingo

bigbossman said:


> 1. they're still expanding though i thought...
> 
> 2. Whoever isn't big enough to fill 30,000 for champions league games, doesn't deserve to be in the tournament. Even FC Thun from Switzerland managed it when they had to play in Bern!
> 
> This from an Arsenal supporter, there are only 15k in the stadium at kick off at the Emirates and barely 10k at the final whistle. This is a team that is given flags to wave to create an atmosphere!


----------



## metros11

Patrick said:


> unfortunately only in german (google translations are linked), more to follow maybe in the next days
> 
> http://translate.google.com/transla...ontent/98712.html&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=
> 
> http://translate.google.com/transla...ontent/98980.html&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=


Thank you.


----------



## ØlandDK

Patrick said:


> it's planned to re-fill the Zentralstadion in Leipzig. These days, a new club will be founded. Rasenball Leipzig (RB Leipzig). RB also stands for Red Bull, but investor names are forbidden (Bayer and Wacker are exceptions these clubs were founded as teams of the local factories back in the days). They take over SSV Markranstädt (the town borders Leipzig) in the 5th league (Oberliga Nordost-Süd) and I'm sure they will spend a lot of money to make it to the Bundesliga one day. uke:


Sad story... hno:


----------



## www.sercan.de

WTF
Rasenball?
Grass Ball Leipzig.


----------



## Alemanniafan

Here's the next update from the new Tivoli in Aachen:
(lots of pictures this time, taken on 17.06.09)



















In the front at the right the entrance to the tunnel through which the guestfans will enter the stadium. 









Entrance building to the Tunnel:


















The top of the tunnel and the exit inside the guests area of the stadium in the back:













































The acces road to the parking house:




































Toillets:



























The back of the fanshop and -bar:



























somewhere inside (probably in the fan bar or shop):




































The fanshop and -bar all in yellow (not wood :bash:









But anyways, it's still a nice stadium isn't it?



























South stand:



























The cages where those damn guestfans will get to watch the matches in :cheers::



























inside the main stand:






















































The upper level behind the vip boxes:



























One of the "boxes" in the face of the main stand part of the business club:









Steel cables supporting the roof going through the box:









business club:









Views from the balcony: 




































The parking house is supposed to be useable in less than two weeks for the CHIO (equestrian games):



























Vip box:









up on the press roof:



























Where the police and firefighters will be surveilling the stadium:


















entrance tunnel for the guestfans:


















The places for the wheelchairs in the first row will be right next to the substitute benches which are integrated into the main stand (quite unusual, no other german stadium has this type of substitute benches):


















The first Lights installed allready:




































separation fence guestfans and the homefans seating area will be here:


























































































surveillance center for the police and firefighters:































































The transparent corners of the are roof closed now:


















car parking 1233 Places on two levels with two soccerfields for training on the roof:



























ground level:


















Workers:



























More pictures as allways  >>here<< .


----------



## trmather

You'dve thought all that yellow would make the stadium look rediculous but it doesn't.

They've done a pretty damn good job, it looks solid and industrial to me, almost like it should be sponsored by Caterpillar or something.


----------



## www.sercan.de

why is thre a special guest fan tunnel?

the new GS satdium will have a same thing. New FIFA/UEFA rule?


----------



## Alemanniafan

www.sercan.de said:


> why is thre a special guest fan tunnel?
> 
> the new GS satdium will have a same thing. New FIFA/UEFA rule?


They're buliding the tunnel so the homefans can walk all around the stadium and not get to meet with the guest fans, for security reasons. The guestfans will arrive with busses and directed right in and out of the stadium via that tunnel without meeting the homefans, so the rivaling fangroups will be pretty strictly isolated to minimize troubles and violence.


----------



## www.sercan.de

i've understand it. like it will be at the new GS stadium.
But i thought it was done at our stadiums because of the tense derbies etc


----------



## Alemanniafan

www.sercan.de said:


> i've understand it. like it will be at the new GS stadium.
> But i thought it was done at our stadiums because of the tense derbies etc


I don't know if it's really a general requirement or not, but the police demanded the fans to be separated more than at the old Tivoli. The police did make a lot of demands here in Aachen, several things had to be changed to satisfy their demands, like those added surveillance sheds on the press roof, an extra elevator inside, an extra entrance etc. They were pretty demanding here in Aachen. But the new proposed stadium in Mainz (By the same architect as the new Tivoli Dr. Stefan Nixdorf) will also have the guestfans and homefans stricty separated in basically the exact same way, they'll have a bridge instead of a tunnel though. I think a tunnel is usually the better choice, simply because people can't throw anything down from the brige at the rivals fans that way. And a tunnel does look a bit nicer in most cases also I believe.


----------



## kazetuner

nice stadium, it's not state of the art but it will do its job.


----------



## Kampflamm

Dresden









































































Source


----------



## ØlandDK

Love the new Dresden stadium! :applause:


----------



## kanye

*20.06. BayArena*














































stadionwelt.de


----------



## xavarreiro

nice stadium


----------



## christof79

*BAYARENA 2009 update*


































































*BayArena Card: A “technological wonder” *










From the start of the 2009/2010 season Bayer 04 Leverkusen are introducing the BayArena Card. The special feature: The BayArena Card contains the charge card chip for electronic payments which provides an open system. Remaining credit on the card is not lost but can be used outside the BayArena at one of the 600,000 GeldKarte (charge card) outlets in Germany.

The BayArena Card will not only serve as means of payment but also as customer card, season ticket or Bayer 04 Club membership card for its 15,000 members.

Initial circulation of 60,000 cards

The BayArena Card and the associated system (stadium entry and electronic payment) was successfully tested on 250 fans and club members at the recent Bundesliga match against Arminia Bielefel. From the start of June there will also be a road show where fans will have the opportunity to try out this “technological wonder” at the Bayer 04 fan shop, at stadium site visits or at the offices of the Sparkasse Leverkusen.

Sparkasse Leverkusen has produced 1,000 cards for the test runs. The genuine BayArena Card will have an initial circulation capacity of 60,000. They will be sent out to season ticket holders and Club members before the new season kicks off and will be valid for four years.


----------



## Patrick

View into the construction side of the Stadion an der Alten Försterei (Berlin):


----------



## Maximus1962

The new BayArena is absolutely beautiful! Bonds the round roof with the rectangular stands! And it's so much better than the old one (no offense)!

Ah, and finally the seats match the club colours


----------



## ØlandDK

^^
Agree! But it's still a shame that the VIP boxes are behind the goal.


----------



## Alix_D

Looks very strange from the outside and their but excellent inside. Tough one really.


----------



## berkshire royal

I really like the Bay Arena they have come up with a decent design, it's a shame that they put in bucket seats rather then tip up don't ask me why but for me it is a major finishing touch for a stadium. I actually quite like the boxes behind the goal every time I see that I know that I am watching a game at Leverkusen and it is destinctive feature and sadly we don't have many of them nowadays. I also like the Union Berlin stadium it looks miles better then the renders showed it too. And the Dresden stadium is a replica of the Aachen and Hoffenheim stadiums.


----------



## Horatio Caine

bigbossman said:


> what is i thought UEFA changed the rules recently, hence why villareal have been expanding their stadium...


Sorry for the late answer, but you do NOT need 30 000 to play the UEFA Champions Leauge. 

Aalborg BK played in the 08/09-season with a stadium that takes about 10 000 spectators.


----------



## muc

As much as I applaud Bayer for using a standardized e-payment system (opposed to proprietary systems like the Allianz Arena Card) calling it a "technological wonder" is a bit ridiculous.
Systems like this have been in use since the late 90's.


----------



## bigbossman

Horatio Caine said:


> Sorry for the late answer, but you do NOT need 30 000 to play the UEFA Champions Leauge.
> 
> Aalborg BK played in the 08/09-season with a stadium that takes about 10 000 spectators.


i think you should read the thread and the posts...


----------



## Alemanniafan

>>Here<< is a video from a tour over the construction site of the new Tivoli with the clubs stadium project manager exlaining a few things. It's only in German of course. But you do get to see all the most important thing pretty well, so it might even be worth watching if you don't speak german.


----------



## Alemanniafan

And the next update from the Tivoli:
(Pictures from 23.06.09)

The stairs to the entrance of the main stand:


















Glass at the back of the stands:








































































The substitute benches are integrated into the main stand in the center:


















The separations between the blocks:













































One of the podests for TV cameras in the back:


















Handrails on the entrances:


















The same on the south stand with the terracing:


















The namingrights of the 4 stands are sold to sponsors, the south stand with the terracing is named "Bitburger Wall":






























































































































The players tunnel where they enter he pitch in main stand, the "Sparkassen Tribüne":


























































































The face of the main stand:









The car park will allready be used for the equestrian games next door to the stadium, the CHIO in a week:


----------



## Patrick

Stadion an der Alten Försterei, Berlin.

The first step of the renovation of the home of 1. FC Union Berlin (2. Bundesliga) is nearly complete. The stadium will be reopened tomorrow with a friendly game against Hertha BSC Berlin. The small main stand will be rebuilt next summer break (afaik). The special thing is, that the very vast majority are still terraces, only a few seats have been added. And about 2000 fans of Union helped at the work at a voluntary base to save costs for workers. kay:

















all pics

This is how it looked before the renovation:


----------



## lpioe

Interesting. 
Do you have a render of how the main stand is going to look?
I wonder why they placed the seats which are not on the main stand behind one of the goals though.


----------



## Chimaera

muc said:


> As much as I applaud Bayer for using a standardized e-payment system (opposed to proprietary systems like the Allianz Arena Card) calling it a "technological wonder" is a bit ridiculous.
> Systems like this have been in use since the late 90's.


Belgian invention, under the name "Proton". First it was a separate card and a separate charging device, now every bank card has it and you just charge it at an ATM or public phone booth.


----------



## Patrick

lpioe said:


> Interesting.
> Do you have a render of how the main stand is going to look?
> I wonder why they placed the seats which are not on the main stand behind one of the goals though.


see here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=29724944#post29724944
I have asked an Union-fan in another forum, I hope will answer soon


----------



## bigbossman

Union's stadium looks great!!


----------



## bigbossman

any pictures of augsburg?


----------



## npmrsi

bigbossman said:


> any pictures of augsburg?
















































More pics


----------



## bigbossman

Cheers npmrsi :cheers:

It's a bit bland though...


----------



## lpioe

^^Didn't they have to make the facade much simpler (or no real facade at all) because they didn't have enough money?
Interior looks good though, I like the color of the seats.



Patrick said:


> see here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=29724944#post29724944
> I have asked an Union-fan in another forum, I hope will answer soon


Thanks!


----------



## NMAISTER007

Germany have some really awesome stadiums right now, and the one's that are going to be completed!!!

greetz from ukraine


----------



## JYDA

npmrsi said:


>



Support pillars???hno:


----------



## Patrick

lpioe said:


> Thanks!


about the seats in Berlin:
right to the seats is the away area. and it seems that they have a regulation fpr the minimum number of seats. the current main stand is too small, so they had to add some seats anywhere else. they've chosenj this location because it is between the away sector and the home sector.



> _Original von proAF_
> 
> 
> 
> _Original von Bollo_
> sind das die sitzplätze für die auswärtsfans? sehen, finde ich, unter dne ganzen stehplätzen, irgendwie deplatziert aus
> http://www.union-foto.de/udb/albums...normal_bau_af_2009_07_06_18_31_15IMG_3000.JPG
> aber umgekehrt sind ja sonst die gaststehplätze so mitten unter sitzplätzen
> 
> 
> 
> nö..der Pufferblock wurde mit Sitzen gefüllt, um die Mindestzahl an Sitzplätzen zu erreichen
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## npmrsi

lpioe said:


> ^^Didn't they have to make the facade much simpler (or no real facade at all) because they didn't have enough money?


The facade will be done later and finished in early 2010.

Read more (in german)


----------



## Alemanniafan

npmrsi said:


> The facade will be done later and finished in early 2010.
> 
> Read more (in german)



The facade is going to look a bit like a cheap version of the birdsnest.

Kinda like this:









or like this:









and when it's illuminated it's supposed to look like this:









The original plans for the facade were with some differently coloured glass a bit like soccercity If I recall that correctly.
That was too expensive and then they also had some arguments with the cities officials over an illuminated commercial or the sponsorname or something of that sort at the side facing the nearby freeway, I believe. Anyways this birdsnest style alluminum facade is the final version that's going to come.


----------



## TowerDefense

wo i love german stadiums

ich liebe sie ^^


----------



## lpioe

Patrick said:


> about the seats in Berlin:
> right to the seats is the away area. and it seems that they have a regulation fpr the minimum number of seats. the current main stand is too small, so they had to add some seats anywhere else. they've chosenj this location because it is between the away sector and the home sector.


So they will remove them once the new main stand is completed?


----------



## Patrick

lpioe said:


> So they will remove them once the new main stand is completed?


unfortunately, my source doesn't know that. but he would find it also just lgical if those seats will diappear later when the new main stand will be completed.



> _Original von proAF_
> 
> 
> 
> _Original von Bollo_
> verschwinden die dann wieder, wenn die vergrößerte haupt fertig sein wird?
> 
> 
> 
> Kann ich nicht wirklich sagen. Logisch wäre es ja
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Alemanniafan

Here's the next update from the new Tivoli in Aachen:
(Photos were taken on 29.06.09, 01.07.09 and 07.07.09)

29.06.09:









main stand:









black business seats on the main stand, manufactured down under in Australia by the way:









The clubs officials said they chose them because they were by far the most comfortable to sit on









But I'm not really sure yet if it was all that clever... I wonder how anyone is gonna sit comfortably there??? :lol:









photos from 07.07.09:



























The CHIO was just taking place during that week right next door (it's main stadium is in the rear):


















the glass is allready installed exept where the pillars are. Who knows why?









the car park to the left is allready in use for the CHIO:



























The upper floor is not yet being used though:



























two training pitches with artificial turf will come here on the roof:













































southwest entrance:









south stand:









Emergency exits in the fence. one will be able to walk up to the stadium and the snackbars outside and all around the stadium, this fence between the snackbars will be the only barrier one will get behind only with a ticket, ip to that it's all publicly acessible. The entrances will be located in the four corners of the stadium. 


















a ticket sales shop:









the clubs own truck in team colours???









the snack bars and ticket shops will all be black soon, like those here on the right:













































from inside the stadium:




































The CHIO under way next door, with the worlds largest equestrian stadium all crowded:









working on the pitch:









block separations:


















the business seats in black, the standard seats in yellow:









ramps for the wheelchairs:


















Now the business seats are finished and ready to sit on, comfortably.And they're tip up seats. 


















the stairs in the terracing area are painted, first white:









the yellow on top of that:




































an antenna on the roof:


















seats allready numbered:












































































































the fence in front of the terracing:






















































on the press roof:




































main camera view:































































And six days later on the 07.07.09 it all allready looked like this:
They're putting in the heating sistem of the pitch:



























separation between guest and homefans:









the camera view on the north stand:



























camera view on the east stand opposite from the main camera:









The glass will go up all the way to the roof behind the south stand. It had to be closed because of noise pollution and the nearby housing area. On the west stand there will be a gap left open. you can see the difference here in this corner of the stadium:













































what we commonly call "wavebreaker" in german, these barriers which will be placed in the terracing area every here and there:









and the camera view from the south stand:


















the firts soil covering the heating system:


















tip up seats in the southwest corner the hybrid area where people can sit or stand at any time, whatever they prefer. ready to be mounted: 
(they obviously decided on a seat version without handrails in the back)




































more pictures als allways:
>>here<< (29.06.07), >>here<< (01.07.09) and >>here<< (07.07.09)


----------



## al74

Those black and blue seats are completely ugly............


----------



## RMB2007

al74 said:


> Those black and blue seats are completely ugly............


The seats are black. Those are the blue covers to protect the seats during the construction work.


----------



## Kampflamm

Dresden









































































Source


----------



## xavarreiro

good photos


----------



## Kampflamm

Leverkusen:














































Source


----------



## Andre_idol

A page full of awesome pics  thanks


----------



## Zeno2

Kampflamm said:


> Leverkusen:


they should have demolished that business wall :bash:


----------



## IcyUrmel

Zeno2 said:


> they should have demolished that business wall :bash:


Why that? Some always complain that all new Stadia look the same. Now there's one feature in one Stadium that is almost unique (I even suppose this is not only "almost", but "absolutely" unique since the clock end at Highbury doesn't exist anymore), ans now this is wrong again?

I don't think so. This end is the last reminder of the stadius (nearer) past, built in the mid-90ies. All the other stands look totally different now, also the roof has nothing to do with the old BayArena.

Did people complain about the Kop End at Anfield (which is in fact quite weird looking, offering worse sightlines than the other stands and being too small aswell)? Do we think that the former main stand at Stamford is :bash: because it's old-fashioned?


Replace this - I admit: anachronistic! - stand, and the BayArena will have nothing original anymore. Just annother 30.000-capacity Stadium like all the others (at least thats what those say who ignore the details).

Keep this anachronistic stand, and visiting BayArena means studying Stadium construction history on a living object. Not only the good progresses, but also the errors and irritations.
Like White Heart Lane with these pillars, like Hannover with this one flat stand, like Anfield or Stamford Bridge. Unlike Frankfurt, Wembley, all these other stadia that may be excellent as a sports venue, but (still!) lack any character.


----------



## Kampflamm

I like that wall as well. As Urmel mentioned, it gives the stadium a distinctive look. Kind of reminds me of a baseball stadium actually.


----------



## berkshire royal

Like all the above said I like it makes the stadium distinctive, when you see that you know that you are watching a game in Leverkusen. It fits in the with the rest of the stadium and gives it something very different. They have done a decent job with this expansion it look different to a lot of stadiums around at the moment. What did they average when they we're playing at Dusseldorf is it possible that we could see yet another expansion in the future?


----------



## Alemanniafan

I personally don't like the Bayarena too much. It's a good stadium somehow, but in comparison to other stadia in Germany this is not one of the better ones. I do kinda like the roof, which did look pretty nice in the plans with the gigantic Bayer cross, which sadly won't come though. It would have made the stadium a gigantic pill which would have been pretty cool. But now something is missing, it's not bad and looks kinda nice but not really very special anymore either, the main clue of the roof got lost leaving out that cross. 
The only thing about this stadium I really do like and find very nice is this aquarium stand, it would be a sin to tear that down and replace it with seats. That would take the one and only true unique feature of that stadium away and completely destroy it's character. I'm not exactly fond of the stadiums character, it's just not my thing personally, being an all seater and so on. But it's a stadium that does have a fairly distinguishable character unlike several others.
I personally believe this stadium even has quite a bit more character than the new Wembley arena for example. It really is unique, it's just not my personal taste and stadium philosophy.


----------



## IcyUrmel

berkshire royal said:


> What did they average when they we're playing at Dusseldorf is it possible that we could see yet another expansion in the future?



I don'T think further extensions are very likely in Leverkusen. They averaged 33.000, with some matches just having 45% of the seats occupied. Highest attendance 44.000, lowest 23.200.
So, of course, they could increase to 35.000 or more, but having said the above, it's obvious that with the big dependence on the away support (ant the attractiveness of the guest team), still they would not make more than 7-9 capacity crowds. Against Schalke, Dortmund, Köln or Bayern they might even sell out a 50.000-seater, but versus Bielefeld, Freiburg, ... not more than 30.000 would show up anyway.

So any further expansion would not pay and might spoil the cult around the always sold out "treasure chest" Bayer tried to establish over the last 10 years...


----------



## Kampflamm

Weserstadion:



















Source



















Source














































Source


----------



## Klimako

when the renewed weser stadium is gonna be able?? ..i personally think that before the expansion this stadium was one of the ugliest and old fashioned ones, and after that i dont know how it's gonna look..


----------



## Axelferis

Bayarena leverkusen is wonderful! i like very much the mix between small modern stadium and business part integrated!! very well done It has its originality


----------



## Kampflamm

Klimako said:


> when the renewed weser stadium is gonna be able?? ..i personally think that before the expansion this stadium was one of the ugliest and old fashioned ones, and after that i dont know how it's gonna look..


It's gonna look like this:


----------



## Luke80

It will be a massive improvement having all the stands near the pitch but I do worry about how good the joins will look.


----------



## RMB2007

Kampflamm said:


> It's gonna look like this:


I really hope they've changed those plans, as there will be some seriously restricted views in those upper tiers behind the goal.


----------



## Klimako

it looks like a great improvement but i agree with RMB2007 about the restricted views ...and when the works are gonna be finished??


----------



## FrankWhite

*Bay Arena*

Pitch is ready..


----------



## Alemanniafan

"Christmas" in the new Tivoli in Aachen:
(pictures from 03.08.09)


----------



## lindayrin

I like the buildings ,but I'm disappointed that the pics always unavailable .:nuts:


----------



## neckbang

FrankWhite said:


> Pitch is ready..


that roof is simply beautiful :cheers:


----------



## Kampflamm

Weserstadion:


----------



## smoo0okie

^^

Is that a temporary stand, because it looks like it.


----------



## ØlandDK

Agree. Looks like a temporary stand - Maybe because there are held concerts in the stadium? :dunno:


----------



## Maximus1962

I think the base is too strong for a temporary. They probably chose to do the first couple of rows on a steal base and that's it.


----------



## Mordaunt-S

Where is Werder going to play while the stadium is reconstructed ?


----------



## Rohne

It's a temporary stand for the away fans. I will be on it on saturday when Eintracht Frankfurt plays in Bremen. As far as I've heard the stand will be of concrete for Bremen's following home game, but not for us.


----------



## Kampflamm

Bremen:


----------



## Kampflamm

BayArena at night:


----------



## FrankWhite

*Bay Arena*


----------



## FrankWhite

*Rudolf Harbig Stadion | Dresden*


----------



## Nils

British Newspaper says Signal Iduna Park in Dortmund ist the best Football Stadium in the world.



> Das Fußballstadion von Borussia Dortmund ist nach Ansicht der „Times“ das beste und schönste der Welt. Die englische Tageszeitung kürte den Signal Iduna Park in einer Rangliste als Top-Arena. Das teilte der BVB am Donnerstag mit. Das Stadion sei ein Klassiker. „Gewaltige Ränge, die die Geräusche mit einer Ohren betäubenden Intensität auf den Rasen zurückwerfen. Dieser Platz wurde für den Fußball und für die Fans erbaut“, heißt es in der Begründung der Zeitung.


----------



## Alemanniafan

Nils said:


> British Newspaper says Signal Iduna Park in Dortmund ist the best Football Stadium in the world.


I agree with that newspaper. It's surely not a very beautiful stadium and it also has it's little flaws, but it definetely has the best atmosphere of all large stadia in the world.


----------



## FrankWhite

*Bay Arena ..again. Looks quite cool*


----------



## Alemanniafan

Pictures from an evening training before the opening match against St. Pauli which will be on Monday evening and is completely sold out (viewable live on the german free TV channel DSF).











































































































































































































































More als allways >>here<<.


----------



## kristo21

Sorry to say it but Bayarena is now full of seats with obstructed view.Entries cabinets are too high:/
At Neue Tivoli it was done excelent.


----------



## mihai_alex

Alemanniafan said:


> I agree with that newspaper. *It's surely not a very beautiful stadium* and it also has it's little flaws, but it definetely has the best atmosphere of all large stadia in the world.


It depends how you define beauty,IMO it's a brutal Beauty.It's my favorite stadium too,the perfect ground for football.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article6789326.ece

The only problem with that classification is that #8 of the best stadia in the world,is the Romanian Dinamo Bucharest`s stadium,which is considered by many,even Dinamo`s fans,the ugliest stadium in the country.
Here you can see this stadium.


----------



## Klimako

dammm Dinamo's sadium is the world's ugliest one!!!!


----------



## mihai_alex

They probably meant to say Dinamo Moskva or Dinamo Kiev,cause Dinamo Bucharest doesn't have any stalinist statues.


----------



## Patrick

Sad news from Aachen:

Today, Alemannia Aachen had their first game in the new stadium (they lost 0:5 to FC St. Pauli). But the result is not the matter.

A fan of St. Pauli fell over the balustrade, 10m into the depth. He had to get revitalized and came into a hospital.

Get well soon, man!


----------



## Alemanniafan

This entrance with the guest fans terracing above (in the right of this picture) is where the St. Pauli fan fell down.
I don't have any detailed news and I only saw the Ambulance drive into that section of the stadium. 
He's supposed to be in a serious condition with severe head injuries though. That's all I heard so far. I don't know how it happened and where exactly he fell down there, but It seems like he fell inside the stadium between the glass barriers on the side of this block, over the lower handrail in the front, when the fans where celebrating the vitory (probably with the players ???)
There was some advertisement hanging there also, just as you know them from other stadia entrances of this type, so I do hope that helped slowing down his fall a bit, but who knows...
I have no official information, but it seems that he does have some serious injuries.

I'm still pretty shocked and hope he survives it and gets well again.


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## ØlandDK

What a sad opening for such a nice stadium. 

Good luck to the St Pauli fan and Alemannia Aachen in the future.


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## christof79

*BayArena 2009 - FIRST match*

*BayArena 2009 - FIRST match*

Werkself - Hoppenheim 1:0






































*=======HOME SWEET HOME=======*


















































pics see www.bayer04.de


*Dream start for Werkself at new BayArena*
The fans, players and staff at Bayer 04 get the result they wanted. The Werkself seal a 1-0 win against 1899 Hoffenheim in front a 28,000 crowd in the first game at the redeveloped BayArena. Bayer 04's enthusiastic and well-organised approach sees the hosts dominate the game but an excellent performance by Timo Hildebrand in the Hoffenheim goal prevents the home side scoring more than the one goal from Stefan Kießling.


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## Maximus1962

BayArena looks amazing! The night shot right ^^ above first looked like a render to me. Serious beauty!


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## Alemanniafan

This is a picture of the St.Pauli fan who had the accident sitting on the balustrade. 








(The man with the black and red pants, sitting there on the balustrade is the one, picture from az-web.de) 

I'm not going to link the pictures of him on the floor after the accident that I've seen on some news websites. They really do look pretty horrible. He's supposed to be in a koma. I can only hope he'll get well. News say he will most likely survive. But an officcial Police statement says that his life is still in danger.


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## RMB2007

Will they change that area now then? I mean, surely they need to put something there to stop this happening again.

Can't say I'm surprised that this has happened, especially when I look at that picture. Why didn't the stewards tell the guy to get back behind the rail?


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## Alemanniafan

Well it's a bit early for conclusions, but the clubs officials stated that they'll have a look at the stadium with experts and that they're considering to close the front of that block up with glass completely. 
I personally think they should definetely do something to prevent that from happening again and I think they will. 
Also in the other corner next to the main stand where the homefans are, they should probably do something simmilar. And probably also in a number of other stadia with simmilar situations.
I presonally would think a net or someting to catch people that fall down there might even allready be sufficient and safe enough and that way it might be possible not having to close up the front of the guest block completely with glass and still have a safe situation. 
I'm certain they'll do something reasonable to prevent such accidents from happening again.


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## Luke80

A black net or something would be alright. Put signs up and ensure stewards are fully aware of the dangers etc. so they are more pro-active at cutting out this kind of thing in the future. That guy was an idiot for doing that - it was incredibly dangerous, but the stewards really should have been more vigilant and stopped him.


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## Kampflamm

LOL


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## Alemanniafan

^^They don't sell Tickets for people to stand there next to this wall, 
as you can see in the picture of the guest fans section taken before the accident I posted earlier.
So it's basically very simmilar to the corner at the opposite end:








The space next to this wall is basically just a bonus area instead of terracing, so to say, 
which in fact isn't all to bad because it really is fairly dense in all of the terracing sections when the stadium is sold out.

And then the stadium looks like in these pictures from the first match in the new Tivoli:


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## Alemanniafan

Concerning the accident.
Officials of several institutions had a look at the stadium again after the accident. The result of that check is that nothing about this stadium needs to be changed.
The clubs officials are discussing and working out what can be done to prevent such things from happening again despite of that conclusion anyways. Which surely does make a lot of sense to me.


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## Alemanniafan

Interesting news from the Bayarena in Leverkusen. 
All the seats in the first row of the upper tier will be raised 3 cm because they have a poor view onto the pitch there because of a high concrete ballustrade in front of them. hno:
They can't be raised more than 3 cm by the way, because of some safety restrictions.


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## thegaffer

Alemanniafan said:


> Concerning the accident.
> Officials of several institutions had a look at the stadium again after the accident. The result of that check is that nothing about this stadium needs to be changed.
> The clubs officials are discussing and working out what can be done to prevent such things from happening again despite of that conclusion anyways. Which surely does make a lot of sense to me.


I can't believe this - nothing needs to be changed? How did they work that one out.
I was also at this match sitting with the St.Pauli support to the right of where the standing ultras were. 
I saw what happened and if they don't put some protection in front of that open section at the front it's asking for a disaster to occur again.
It is a lovely stadium though and it was such a shame that the opening was such a sad event in the end.


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## Alemanniafan

thegaffer said:


> I can't believe this - nothing needs to be changed? How did they work that one out.
> I was also at this match sitting with the St.Pauli support to the right of where the standing ultras were.
> I saw what happened and if they don't put some protection in front of that open section at the front it's asking for a disaster to occur again.
> It is a lovely stadium though and it was such a shame that the opening was such a sad event in the end.


Well, they did make some changes of course, but sadly I don't have any pictures I can post here though. They installed safety nets, put marks on the floor to keep the front of the exit clear and covered the balustrade with metal to make it harder to climb up. They also did that in the hometerracing section. I'll post pictures as soon as I have any I can link here.
But since all the regulations were fully met the result of the safety check was of course that nothing "NEEDED" to be done, the club did take some pretty well thought out countermeasures anyways, as I mentioned. They managed to find a reasonable way without closing the whole front with glass and thus isolating the guest fans in a "terrarium" type of section.
I think they did really well with the carried out improvements. They're hardly noticeable at all and should be really effective. I'll see where I can find pictures, because they did find some pretty good and quite unique solutions to the problem.


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## danVan

They don't need to change anything at the stadium, they need to stop stupid people from going to stadiums.


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## metros11

danVan said:


> They don't need to change anything at the stadium, they need to stop stupid people from going to stadiums.


+1


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## SASH

Alemanniafan said:


> Pictures from an evening training before the opening match against St. Pauli which will be on Monday evening and is completely sold out (viewable live on the german free TV channel DSF).
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## SASH

Kampflamm said:


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Has there already been an opening match for this stadium?
They should ask Feyenoord Rotterdam for it. I heard they are pretty good in renovations of stadiums and especially ones in Leverkusen.


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## GEwinnen

The concept of the roof-ring is 2000 years old:


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## dande

Bay arena reminds me of NFL or NCAA stadiums from the inside. The broken up bowl, sky boxes. The roof looks really nice, a real aspirin!


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## Patrick

SASH SCF said:


> I thought Tivoli is in Kopenhagen?:lol:


the Tivoli is named after a neighboring estate (Gut Tivoli) which is named after the italian city of Tivoli.

And please: Don't fullquote posts with many pictures...


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## christof79

SASH SCF said:


> Has there already been an opening match for this stadium?
> They should ask Feyenoord Rotterdam for it. I heard they are pretty good in renovations of stadiums and especially ones in Leverkusen.



Yes, ther were already two Bundesliga matches in the "new" Bayarena.
Both were won. (not like in aachen ....:lol

And next saturday (05.09.2009) there is an "official" reopening match....
a friendly match between Germany and South Africa.

p.s maybe next time when we do a renovation again we will invite Rotterdam before that... :nuts:


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## Axelferis

Where leverkusen does play its matches now??


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## Kampflamm

In this stadium:
































































Cologne Cathedral and Bayer industrial plant to the south of the stadium:


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## Klimako

it's a shame that the Bayarena hadn't been sold out!


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## haggiesm

Don't know how I feel about those uncovered roofs cables. doesn't look finished. otherwise I like the stadium.


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## Alemanniafan

Klimako said:


> it's a shame that the Bayarena hadn't been sold out!


For decades that stadium only got filled, whenever the Aspirinfactory hands out tons of free tickets. The DFB doesn't really do that though.


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## christof79

Alemanniafan said:


> For decades that stadium only got filled, whenever the Aspirinfactory hands out tons of free tickets. The DFB doesn't really do that though.


^^

If the BayArena have been sold out in first two matches (against Hoppenheim & Bochum) everyone would be saying: The "upgrade" is to small :nuts:
Don´t blame Bayer or Leverkusen that the game of DFB was not sold out, that´s because the german team plays "wonderfull" football :lol:

p.s. even the stadium in cologne was not sold out yet in the bundesliga, despite of the return of prince poldi :bash:


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## Klimako

..uhmm i dont know if its just me but this start of season (09/10) it seems as if the attendance to the stadiums had felt in comparisson with the last ones...


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## Patrick

groundhopper2000 said:


> http://groundhopper2000.blogspot.com/2009/09/borussia-dortmund-ii-v-dynamo-dresden.html


I really don't understand why Stadion Rote Erde was not used. It's perfect for games like that. Security is not an argument for me.



christof79 said:


> ^^
> p.s. even the stadium in cologne was not sold out yet in the bundesliga, despite of the return of prince poldi :bash:


unfortunately we're arriving at english ticket price level.


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## Axelferis

this stadium is wonderful!! it fells good football bayerana! :cheers:


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## SSE

Patrick said:


> unfortunately we're arriving at english ticket price level.



You are still way off the ludicrous prices in England. 

I was in Germany in December, and was taken to see Arminia Bielefeld at home to Dortmund, I think I paid 16Euros50. 

For someone to go and see Crystal Palace play Blackpool in a few weeks (for what will be a pretty awful game in the second division) adult prices start at 28Euros.

Luckily my season ticket at Palace works out to much better value but it's still ridiculously expensive, and without the added bonuses of free public transport which I'm told happens on matchdays in some German cities?


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## Patrick

these are only the terraces, which are so quite cheep, and they are mostly always sold out.
For a seat in Cologne against Leverkusen eg., prices start at 25€ and go up to 58€.


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## Alemanniafan

Lots of technological information about the Rhein neckar Arena in Sinsheim. Sadly it's only in german though, but it sure does have some unusually detailed information about several technological aspects in a modern stadium. So if you speak german and are interested in modern stadia, it's likely to be worth reading:

http://www.agn.de/pdf/rna-tab-0909.pdf


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## lpioe

How big is the distance from the pitch to the stands in Aachen?


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## Alemanniafan

lpioe said:


> How big is the distance from the pitch to the stands in Aachen?


Exactly the minimum distances required by the UEFA,
6m at the sidelines and 7,5m behind the goals. (6m from the sidelines to the stand and 7,5 from the goal lines to the stand)
And the seats in the first row are elevated above the pitch by 80cm.


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## lpioe

^^ Thanks.
I heard it before but I wasn't sure anymore because I also read somewhere that Allianz Arena is as close as possible, but in reality it's 8m on the sides and behind the goals. 
Are there any other new stadiums (Dresden, Hoffenheim, Augsburg) that use the minimum distances?


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## Chiricano

..-


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## derzberb

bigbossman said:


> and why was it rejected?


Authorities have to treat such a building as a new construction. There is simply no chance to get it ratified, accoridng to laws of construction. There is no space there to evacuate 20.000 visitors in an appropriate way, to preserve vicinity from noise out of the stadium. This stadium was constructed more than 80 years ago. Law has not been that repressive then.
The problem ist, that the stadium is too closed to city-Autobahn and neighbourhood'S housing area (less than 10 meters!).

I'm Bayern-supporter, but i agree with '60ies longing for a home apart Bayern's stadium. Maybe they will move to Haching.


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## skaP187

Ugly 13 in 12 design anyway, nothing lost.
How are things at Sant Pauli?


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## derzberb

News for 1860 in Munich.

Mayor wants them to move to Olympiastadion. He enforces decision within this month.

http://newsticker.sueddeutsche.de/list/id/970087


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## raynsity

Do you guys know where can I find some pictures of German stadia when their terraces are converted to all-seated stands?


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## bongo-anders

I would try stadienwelt.de


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## Twister2010

New Millerntor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tqc39Pxqyg&feature=player_embedded


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## Kampflamm

Some pics from yesterday's game between Hannover and Schalke (AWD-Arena, Hanover)...


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## Zeno2

The Hannover Arena is one of the best German stadiums with an amazing roof structure.


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## Andre_idol

Amazing stadium


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## Kampflamm

Olympiastadion, Berlin


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## eofr33

nice.


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## eofr33

Zeno2 said:


> The Hannover Arena is one of the best German stadiums with an amazing roof structure.


agreed.


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## metros11

Best manager in Germany.


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## bongo-anders

@ Kampflamm

I think that i was in the same section as you at the Olympiastadion at the game vs. Schalke.

I was in section 21 on the upper level.


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## Kampflamm

Nice little fact: 484,910 people (avg.: 53,879) went to Bundesliga games this weekend, a new record for the league. The old record stood at 458,589 from last season.



> I think that i was in the same section as you at the Olympiastadion at the game vs. Schalke.
> 
> I was in section 21 on the upper level.


I was actually in 26.2. Took a couple of pics from a different block after the game though.


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## EPA001

^^ Dortmund is fantastic to visit. A really great stadium with a great crowd. 



metros11 said:


> Best manager in Germany.


A very good and succesful manager indeed. But this year that title also goes to Louis van Gaal and his team.


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## likasz

Guys, no big indoor arenas U/C in Germany?


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## thun

Afaik no. The O2 World in Berlin was the most recent, I think.


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## www.sercan.de

Actually which german city needs a big arena?
Maybe Munih and Frankfurt?


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## SpicyMcHaggis

www.sercan.de said:


> Actually which german city needs a big arena?
> Maybe Munih and Frankfurt?


I was just about to ask that  

More/less everyone has top notch arena in Germany.


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## Alemanniafan

In case you're interested, the Club Alemannia Aachen as the stadium owner is suppsoed to get 500.000 € for renting out the Tivoli to the DFB for this friendly match against Malta tomorrow.
The temporary conversion is supposed to cost about 150.000 €, the overall profit remaining for the Club by renting out the Tivoli for this match should end up being somewhere around 100.000 €, a clubs official said in an interview for the Lokal TV.


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## se12

Kampflamm said:


> Why are you mentioning Schalke in the same breath with Hoffenheim and Wolfsburg? Gazprom neither owns the team nor do they have a say in the day to day running of the club.


I also wonder why too . . .


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## derzberb

gavstar00 said:


> At first glance this picture looked like something from Germany in the late 30's/ early 40's, had to do a double take on it!
> 
> Have to say it is some sight seeing that many fans in for a hockey game, i would imagine the atmosphere was incredible


They raise *both* hands at one time


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## sali_haci

They're nazis! Right? ^^
:lol:


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## otherperson

Nice.


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## Twister2010

*HAMBURG - Millerntor(23 201)*










*FC.St Pauli 
1. Bundesliga *

_The Millerntor-Stadion is a multi-purpose stadium in Hamburg St. Pauli, Germany. It is mainly used for football matches and is the home stadium of FC St. Pauli. It is on the Heiligengeistfeld, near the Reeperbahn. The stadium had a capacity of 32 000 when it was built in 1961. Sometimes it is used for the American football team of the Hamburg Blue Devils and very rarely for concerts or festivals _


















































































http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3122/2486122450_28ec280025_b.jpg








http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2343/2348700219_9f9f1b6367_b.jpg









*
Millerntor and Hamburger Dom(Famous Funfair)*








http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2280/2546444340_5d041b6234.jpg
































http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2327/2370256165_214c126963_o.jpg

Finally in December 2006 the south stand was demolished after the game versus Wuppertal and has caused the capacity to be reduced to the level of 15 600. Some troubles in the club leadership deferred the reconstruction. Some fans speak cynically of the "Littman hole", with regard to the controversial chairman Corny Littmann and the fact that a tribune is lost. But in the spring 2007 the reconstruction work started. However, with the newly reconstructed south stand (nearly finished in March 2008) and a provisional seating area above the northern stand, the capacity increased to 22 648 (2:1 victory versus VfL Osnabrück 20 March 2008). When the south stand is completely finished, the capacity will 23 201. The capacity of the completely reconstructed Millerntor stadium will be 27 000 in 2014 or earlier, depending on the league results. The next tribune scheduled for rebuilding should be the north stand, according on the plans. However, it now looks like the rebuilding of the main tribune will start first, and the north stand will be used, for some time to come, with the provisional seating - which was originally booked for the season tickets holders of the main tribune.
A map of the surrounding area

The Main Tribune was demolished in mid-November 2009, with the new seating sections scheduled to be completed in time for the start of the 2010-2011 season.

Progress overview
1. South stand: 3000 standing places, 2600 seats (1000 business) and 10 Séparées (VIP Lounge)
2. Main tribune: 4800 seats and 200 Séparées
3. North stand: 1940 standing places for guest supporters, 3375 seats for home and guest
4. Back straight: 10 000 standing places, 1175 seats

With the reconstructed south stand the club fulfils their licence terms for the DFL, because all technical requirements (e.g. undersoil heating) are included. Further the old cult manual scoreboard is exchanged for a digital one. The old scoreboard might get a place somewhere at the stadium front.

*New Millerntor*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tqc39Pxqyg


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## Zeno2

^^
Love the Sankt Pauli stadium. Main stand has an English feel.
What are the future plans regarding the renewel of the 2 remaining stands?


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## MS20

What is with Germany and stadium upgrades? They may it seem like its nothing, while every other country struggles to get anything done. Seems like there is new construction news every week.


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## Alemanniafan

MS20 said:


> What is with Germany and stadium upgrades? They may it seem like its nothing, while every other country struggles to get anything done. Seems like there is new construction news every week.


That's indeed the first impression one gets. But there is a downside to it.
New stadia or upgrades and renovations are indeed quite costly.
And that lead to several clubs having financial problems getting nearly bankrupt.
*The Zentralstadion in Leipzig* used in the Worldcup 2006 has been nearly empty and only used by local lower league teams for some years, until Red Bull recently started their "RasenBallsport Leipzig" project which everyone expects to advance from the 5th league fairly quickly. They now rent the stadium from Mr. Kölmel it is being (or is very soon going to be) renamed into Red Bull Arena
*Schalke 04* as one of the big clubs for example has very high debts which also partially result from building the Arena in Gelsenkirchen. 
*Arminia Bielefeld* is badly strugling to survive right this moment because the modernisations of their stadium cost 12 mio€ more than expected. They are not unlikely to go bankrupt before the beginnig of the coming season.
*Dynamo Dresden* is strugling to survive for years allready just like *1860 München* which can't afford the 5 rent of 5 mio per year for the Allianzarena.
*Fortuna Düsseldorf* and *1.Fc Kaiserslautern* both got and are still getting financial help from the city or state even and both pay ridiculously low rent for their stadia.
*Alemannia Aachen* is also having financial problems because the new Tivoli cost a bit more than expected they just got a financial backup from the city of Aachen for a 5.5 mio€ loan. 
In Mainz the city of Mainz is currently building the new Coface Arena and not the soccerclub and noone knows how financial sucessfull that will be.
So as you can see here by these examples, quite often all these new stadia do in fact create serious financial problems for the owners especially for those clubs that don't constantly play in the first Bundesliga.


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## pmsbm

> Further the old cult manual scoreboard is exchanged for a digital one.


Where is this?
The one shown in the pics, between the South and Est stands seems to be digital already!


----------



## hugenholz

Alemanniafan said:


> That's indeed the first impression one gets. But there is a downside to it.
> New stadia or upgrades and renovations are indeed quite costly.
> And that lead to several clubs having financial problems getting nearly bankrupt.
> *The Zentralstadion in Leipzig* used in the Worldcup 2006 has been nearly empty and only used by local lower league teams for some years, until Red Bull recently started their "RasenBallsport Leipzig" project which everyone expects to advance from the 5th league fairly quickly. They now rent the stadium from Mr. Kölmel it is being (or is very soon going to be) renamed into Red Bull Arena
> *Schalke 04* as one of the big clubs for example has very high debts which also partially result from building the Arena in Gelsenkirchen.
> *Arminia Bielefeld* is badly strugling to survive right this moment because the modernisations of their stadium cost 12 mio€ more than expected. They are not unlikely to go bankrupt before the beginnig of the coming season.
> *Dynamo Dresden* is strugling to survive for years allready just like *1860 München* which can't afford the 5 rent of 5 mio per year for the Allianzarena.
> *Fortuna Düsseldorf* and *1.Fc Kaiserslautern* both got and are still getting financial help from the city or state even and both pay ridiculously low rent for their stadia.
> *Alemannia Aachen* is also having financial problems because the new Tivoli cost a bit more than expected they just got a financial backup from the city of Aachen for a 5.5 mio€ loan.
> In Mainz the city of Mainz is currently building the new Coface Arena and not the soccerclub and noone knows how financial sucessfull that will be.
> So as you can see here by these examples, quite often all these new stadia do in fact create serious financial problems for the owners especially for those clubs that don't constantly play in the first Bundesliga.


Didn't 1860 München had to pay to Bayern the rent because they already sold their stadium-shares to Bayern in 2006? Newspapers suggest 1860 Munchen will leave the Allianz-Arena and will go back to the old Olympiastadion.


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## Fizmo1337

Why are there always white pillars (with a web) behind each goal in german stadiums? It ruins everything.


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## Patrick

because these are the terraces, and people on the terraces seem to try to throw more things on the pitch than people on seats.


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## Alemanniafan

Fizmo1337 said:


> Why are there always white pillars (with a web) behind each goal in german stadiums? It ruins everything.


Officially the reason to introduce them once was to protect spectators from the hard shots on the goals.
But in reality they only serve to protect the players, especially the goalkeepers from objects the spectators throw.
And as Patrick mentioned, the terracing and thus the hardcore fans are usually located behind the goals. Those nets behind the goals are required in german stadia by some regulations somewhere in whatever guidelines and stadium requirements.

There are also solutions of nets being installed without pillars though, like in the impuls arena in Augsburg where the nets are hanging down from the stadium roof.
In the old Tivoli stadium here in Aachen there was an incident where a coach was hit by an object which led to the match being replayed without spectators and installation of nets all around the pitch for a while. To be visible on TV, the substitutes bench had been moved to the opposite side in front of the terracing stand where the hardcorefans where standing, just shortly before the incident. They were moved back in front of the seated section again afterwards.


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## eagle in sky

Does German federation think be candidate to 2020 European championship ?


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## MS20

I have a question for any Germans. Basically, why are Leipzig and Dresden such underachievers in footballing terms? Seems to be the only really large state in Germany that doesn't have a representative in the top flight; two big cities in one state and neither are making ground. Both are pretty big places, so whats the issue? I'd also like to know whether Dynamo Dresden and Leipzig are well supported overall? What is the feeling like in those cities when it comes to football? 

Thanks in advance!


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## Rohne

The problem was (or partly still is) simple: mismanagement. Dynamo Dresden played in the first league some seasons, but now they unfortunately are in 3rd league only. Leipzig is even more complicated. It has 2 clubs with great tradition: VfB/Lok and Chemie/Sachsen, both have been strong in GDR's football league, but after the reunification they relegated and relegated while having financial problems.


----------



## thun

The new club RB Leipzig will be in the top fly within a few years, that's for sure. Although lots of fans (including Rohne, I suppose) don't like to hear that.


----------



## npmrsi

*INGOLSTADT - Audi-Sportpark (15,000)*

The new home of FC Ingolstadt (2nd Bundesliga) opened last week.


----------



## Andre_idol

Looks great!


----------



## Werkself

Alemanniafan said:


> The old Tivoli and the old Bökelberg stadium had terracing on many sides. But in both stadia the hardcore supporters or the ultras were all together in one section.
> But in the old Tivoli and in the Bökelberg there were also other groups who were remarkably loud on other stands.


Now they are all on one stand and the atmosphere is bad. Is has nothing to do with terracing.

I have been a lot of times to the Signal Iduna Park in Dortmund and I can say atmosphere can be shit there as in the Allianz Arena. Südtribüne is most of the time crap if there aint big successes on the field.

Quantity can be louder, yes. But normally small stadia are better. 

Regarding Leverkusen, I dont want to do flamewars with a childish fanboy like you.


----------



## cmc

*my favorite 2 of Germany...*


----------



## derzberb

@allemmanniafan&werkself: what is your discussion about? the cutest, nicest, süßest, hüppschest athmosphere, best scampi&schampus are in Arroganzarena, the one and only, where the beautiful FC Bayern plays the football and all the others shit in their trousers. :banana:


----------



## Rev Stickleback

derzberb said:


> where the beautiful FC Bayern plays the football and all the others shit in their trousers.


you'd think the bayern players would learn to store their trousers somewhere more secure in future.


----------



## derzberb

Rev Stickleback said:


> you'd think the bayern players would learn to store their trousers somewhere more secure in future.


:rofl:


----------



## Patrick

The Düsseldorf thing hasn't been posted yet?

Ok, I will: Germany will host the 2011 Eurovision Song Contest (formerly known as Grand Prix d'Eurovision de la chanson), and the chosen location will be the Rheinstadion (EspritLTUwhatever-Arena) in Düsseldorf. But this event will take place in May...when the football season is not over yet. First, there were plans to move back to the old Paul-Janes-Stadion, but abandoned due to security reasons afaik...so a swiss company is currently building a new temorary stadium near the Rheinstadion, which will be demolished again after only 3 games will have played inside in April/May. Capacity: 20,000. Costs: 2.800.000 €.

www.rp-online.de
www.fortuna-duesseldorf.de


----------



## hmueller2

they are building a 2.800.000 stadium for 3 games?!?! :wtf:


----------



## Werkself

Yes, its crazy, but where should they go else?

Leverkusen & Mönchengladbach - Clubstadium, wont be leased to others
Cologne - Riots
Duisburg, Bochum - also playing 2nd league

The only possible option would be Wuppertal, but i think its too crappy for them. :nuts:


----------



## Alemanniafan

Werkself said:


> Yes, its crazy, but where should they go else?
> 
> Leverkusen & Mönchengladbach - Clubstadium, wont be leased to others
> Cologne - Riots
> Duisburg, Bochum - also playing 2nd league
> 
> The only possible option would be Wuppertal, but i think its too crappy for them. :nuts:


I'd say that's only half true.
Mönchengladbach rented their stadium out once to Weegberg Beek for a DFB Cup game against Aachen.

Leverkusen rented the Esprit Arena, where Düsseldorf regularly plays, themself and played there for about half a season while they modernized their own Bay-Arena. So why should they generally not rent it out to Düsseldorf in return as an exception for just three games?

Cologne rented out "their" stadium to Alemannia Aachen (just like Düsseldorf a lokal rival from Cologne with major antipathies) for Aachens UEFA-cup "homegames".

Duisburg and Bochum are both also playing second league, but they might still be useable as homevenues for Düsseldorf as long as they'd have a rotating schedule in the league, pairing the two clubs up, so having a homegame in Duisburg and an away match for Dusseldorf and vice versa for example (same with Bochum).
And Wuppertal would probably still have been better than the old Jahnstadion which originally was a serious option.

But as we see they build a temporary stadium now instead. A complete waste of money in my opinion, but an interesting project nevertheless.
And when I look at the pictures I ask myself why this temporary stadium used only in April and May needs to be fully covered with a roof?
Why not save the money and just cover the VIP and business seats on one or two of the stands? after all, it's just a temporary move for three homegames, does it really have to be that "fancy" then? For games in springtime, where chances are pretty good that the weather isn't all that bad?


----------



## Werkself

Alemanniafan said:


> Leverkusen rented the Esprit Arena, where Düsseldorf regularly plays, themself and played there for about half a season while they modernized their own Bay-Arena. So why should they generally not rent it out to Düsseldorf in return as an exception for just three games?


Yes, but Bayer Leverkusen rented it from the city of Düsseldorf. Now the club Fortuna Düsseldorf wants to rent the stadium from Bayer Leverkusen, but we dont rent our stadium to other clubs generally. In addition all the clubs infrastucture is in the BayArena, so its a security thing AND it could be a problem for the training there, especially when we are still in the Europe League.

To cologne, I know that Aachen is a rival, but I think with Düsseldorf it comes to a complete different level, especially with those hooligans. Did your games in cologne went out fine?

Whatever, the city of Düsseldorf has more than enough money, how they spent it I dont care. :bash:


----------



## Alemanniafan

Werkself said:


> Yes, but Bayer Leverkusen rented it from the city of Düsseldorf. Now the club Fortuna Düsseldorf wants to rent the stadium from Bayer Leverkusen, but we dont rent our stadium to other clubs generally. In addition all the clubs infrastucture is in the BayArena, so its a security thing AND it could be a problem for the training there, especially when we are still in the Europe League.
> 
> To cologne, I know that Aachen is a rival, but I think with Düsseldorf it comes to a complete different level, especially with those hooligans. Did your games in cologne went out fine?
> 
> Whatever, the city of Düsseldorf has more than enough money, how they spent it I dont care. :bash:


Well they surely wouldn't have rented Leverusens the clubs office rooms or training facilities for three matchdays.
But who cares... they build a temporary stadium anyway now.

Our UEFA Cup games in Cologne went all fine.
We had lots of fun singing: "Wir scheißen in die Südkurve!" 
Had record attendancies for Alemannia homegames and Cologne Fans didn't care all that much it seems to me, but I'm surely no expert on that question.
I personally had the impression Gladbach Fans were far more upset about the fact that the first DFB Cup match ever being held in the Borussia Park was one of their "friendly Club" Weegberg Beek. (they have some lokal cooperation with them) 
And of course that it happened to be against their so much hated lokal rival Aachen - and of course also won by Aachen.
They indeed made sure that the terracing area of the Borussiapark, the "Nordkurve" was strictly reserved for Weegberg Beeks Fans when they rented out the stadium to them. And publicly pointed out to their fans, that this way Alemannias fans wouldn't end up standing in their "holy" home territory.


----------



## imbee

why is there 

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1734

no topic about millerntor stadion?


----------



## thun

Afaik they pay the "stadium" with the money earned by hosting the Eurovision Song Contest. Apparently, they will still run a surplus. Nevertheless, it's crazy.


----------



## Alemanniafan

thun said:


> Afaik they pay the "stadium" with the money earned by hosting the Eurovision Song Contest. Apparently, they will still run a surplus. Nevertheless, it's crazy.


There probably won't be any surplus for the soccer club Fortuna Düsseldorf and maybe also not for the city.
The Esprit Arena where the Eurovision Song Contest is being held belongs to the city. They rent it out to the soccer club for very cheap.
The city will get the money from the Eurocision Song Contest for renting the stadium out to them for 6 weeks or so. 
Some of all that money, or most of it, or probably even more than that actually, will obviously go into building the temporary stadium. 
Would be interesting to know how much money the Eurovision Song Contest pays for renting the Esprit Arena and if that's more or anywhere near or considerably less than 2.8 mio € and how much the city of Düsseldorf earns through other generated incomes that come with hosting the song contest. 
As far as I know the soccer club Fortuna Düssldorf currently pays quite a bit less rent than that, for an entire season.


----------



## Alemanniafan

imbee said:


> why is there
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1734
> 
> no topic about millerntor stadion?


Probably because noone opened a thread on it there.

Maybe that's also because half of that modernized stadium would actually kinda belong here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1732

And the other half here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1736
:nuts:


----------



## imbee

the stadium is still in development or not?

would be great to have a special thread for it. does somebody have some plans about the final project?


----------



## Patrick

Alemanniafan said:


> Our UEFA Cup games in Cologne went all fine.
> We had lots of fun singing: "Wir scheißen in die Südkurve!"
> Had record attendancies for Alemannia homegames and Cologne Fans didn't care all that much it seems to me, but I'm surely no expert on that question.


I just saw that now, so sry for the late response.

My impressions are that Aachen is generally not seen as a major hatred rival in Cologne, at least not as big as Gladbach or Leverkusen (or Düsseldorf or Lautern), and so do I.


----------



## up5

Hamburg or Frankfurt.


----------



## imbee

*Essen - Stadion Essen (20.650)*










*RW Essen*

1x Champion:
1955

2x Cup Winner:
1953

Current stadium:Georg-Melches-Stadion








www.stadion-essen.de










http://www.derwesten.de


Render 1st stage








www.stadion-essen.de








www.stadion-essen.de

Capacity: 20.650
Seats: 11.320
Terrace: 9.040
Business seats: 1.100
Vip: 14 boxes (290 seats)

Render 2nd stage








www.stadion-essen.de

Capacity: about 25.000

In a 3rd Stage it is planned to add a 2nd tier to increase capacity to 35.000

Webcam
http://www.stadion-essen.de/multimedia


----------



## Benn

Kind of like it better with the corners open, very efficient, nicely proportioned little stadium. Good if you like a sort of crisp industrial feel.


----------



## MS20

thun said:


> *50,000 is not possible in the near future. This would mean that only the teams with the largest stadiums in the country would be in the first division*, something which is very unlikely (look e. g. at Fortuna Düsseldorf or Leipzig). There are quite a few teams with smaller stadiums which are too good to play in the second division.
> 
> This year, Gladbach will probably be relegated, having a stadium of 50,000. Maybe Frankfurt or Stuttgart will also be relegated, both having very large stadiums as well.
> 
> *An average of 50,000 would only be possible after huge investments in most stadiums* of the clubs in both the first and second division to guarantee a theoretical capacity large enough for it. And that won't happen in the near future, probably not at all.


Not necessarily. If Bundesliga CURRENTLY played at full capacity, they would be averaging *46,641*. Thats a meager 3,500 off 50k average. 

Now, let's add Mainz' new capacity from next year to that:

Average: 47,374.... now its 2,500 off. 

Now for the sake of the argument lets imagine St Pauli and Freiburg went down, and Augsburg and Hertha went up (can't happen because of Freiburg, but play along). Lets also assume that Hertha averaged 60,000 next year (capacity 75,000). 

Average: 49,500. And that still doesn't include the likes of Dusseldorf, Lepizig, 1860... 

Well, you get my point. Huge investments in most stadiums? I've made virtually no changes to any capacities that aren't already there to be filled up and I got it to 500 off.


----------



## Rev Stickleback

I think that was kind of his point. Although it's possible in theory, it would take a strange set of circumstances (such as all the best supposted sides being in the top flight) for it to happen.

And you'd need every game to sell out, which isn't the case currently.

Other than that you'd be requiring an average expansion of several thousand per club to achieve 50,000.


----------



## MS20

And yet I've made the point that it requires only 2 different sides than are currently in the Bundesliga (and both Hertha and Augsburg are almost certainly getting promoted). Hardly the stuff of fantasy.... and no, it wouldn't require all the best supported sides, which was another point I made. And no again, you wouldn't require an average expansion of several thousand at all, which is yet another point I made.

The only valid point you have is that it would need a sell out every game, something which I preempted and was the whole pretext for my original question (after that guy posted a link that had all Bundesliga games selling out for week 30). 

But thanks for your input.


----------



## thun

@ Rev Stickleback: My point exactly. It might be possible theoretically, but it won't happen in the near future. It would require a constellation which is just way too imporbable.

1860 almost went bankrupt and wants to play in a smaller stadium on the long run. In Leipzig, they would need to form a Spielvereinigung (a fusion of the three clubs), something which won't happen at all. RB Leipzig won't gain so much support that they would sell out the Zentralstadion in the forseeable future. And Fortuna Düsseldorf won't make it to the first division anytime soon, too.


----------



## Rev Stickleback

MS20 said:


> And yet I've made the point that it requires only 2 different sides than are currently in the Bundesliga (and both Hertha and Augsburg are almost certainly getting promoted). Hardly the stuff of fantasy.... and no, it wouldn't require all the best supported sides, which was another point I made. And no again, you wouldn't require an average expansion of several thousand at all, which is yet another point I made.


Hertha don't draw 60,000 though. Maybe next year things will be different, but their hightest average in recent history has been 52,000, and 45,000 is more typical.

Any rise in crowds from them would be offset by probably losing Borussia Mönchengladbach though, and maybe one of Eintracht Frankfurt or Köln too.

An average expansion of several thousand doesn't need to be across the board, but it would take significant expansion of several grounds. Adding 10000 to a capacity, and selling out, only nudges the average up by 500.

Stuttgart and Werder Bremen should draw better next year, when their rebuilds are complete. 



> The only valid point you have is that it would need a sell out every game, something which I preempted and was the whole pretext for my original question (after that guy posted a link that had all Bundesliga games selling out for week 30).
> 
> But thanks for your input.


That's a very big point though. Every league would improve its average by a few thousand if all the games sold out. 

In most places there's probably a higher chance of a sold-out stadium being expanded that a team not selling out starting to do so.

Overall, if any football league is going to break 50,000 then it'll be Germany. England is stagnant now, and even if it wasn't, there really aren't that many teams who could the pull 50,000+ crowds, let alone average that number.


----------



## the Ludovico center

Can somebody give me a LIST of Germany's (ex)Bundesliga football clubs that are now (anno 2011) still playing and will continue playing in a stadium with an athletic track around the pitch?

I already know two of them: FC Nuremburg and Herta B

I also already know that Vfb Stuttgart and W.Bremen are converting theirs into football-only so that doesn't count.


----------



## mrcabman

the Ludovico center said:


> Can somebody give me a LIST of Germany's (ex)Bundesliga football clubs that are now (anno 2011) still playing and will continue playing in a stadium with an athletic track around the pitch?
> 
> I already know two of them: FC Nuremburg and Herta B
> 
> I also already know that Vfb Stuttgart and W.Bremen are converting theirs into football-only so that doesn't count.


These former Bundesliga clubs are still playing in a stadium with an athletic track: Preussen Muenster, Fortuna Cologne, SSV Ulm, Tennis Borussia Berlin, SV Darmstadt, FC Homburg, Rot-Weiss Oberhausen, 1. FC Saarbruecken, SG Wattenscheid, Eintracht Braunschweig, Karlsruher SC


----------



## the Ludovico center

^ Thanks mate!

btw I've only known the existence of Herta & Union, never heard of Tennis Borussia Berlin (funny that a football club is has "tennis" in it's name)


----------



## imbee

good progress in offenbach










http://www.offenbach.de


----------



## Fenerbahce Sk

Stadion Essen Any update?


----------



## kanye

Fenerbahce Sk said:


> Stadion Essen Any update?


http://www.stadion-essen.de/


----------



## Jim856796

The Rudi-Sedlmayer-Halle has not been used since 2003 when it closed for unknown reasons.


----------



## thun

Apparently, the city administration and the FC Bayern Munich are thinking to renovate it and use it again for Bayerns basket ball division. However, due to costs for renovation (which the club would have to pay) rising, no decision was taken so far.


----------



## renco

Where can I find attendances numbers for lower leagues (oberligas 5.,6. tier of german football leagues)?


----------



## imbee

update

stadion offenbach









http://www.offenbach.de


stadion essen









http://www.stadion-essen.de


----------



## Alemanniafan

Eintracht Braunschweig are modernizing/ expanding their Eintracht-stadion.
But it will remain a multipurpose stadium with athletics track. 
Interestingly clubs Fans and locals got themselves organized and sucesfully retained local politicians in a referendum from building a far more costly modern soccer specific arena.

The plans are mainly to modernize the mainstand, add vip boxes and training, press facilities. build a cubic extra building with a fanshop, officespace kindergarden and restaurant. To close gaps in the stadium and extend the roof over the complete stands. As well as creating a modern plaza in front od the mainstand.

The costs of the project are planned to be € 14.5 million. 
I suppose that's the cost the city covers and doesn't include the cubic building the club fully finances itself.

The stadium capacity will be slightly over 25.000 and supposed to be finished by summer 2013. The club Eintracht Braunschweig currently advanced into the second Bundesliga from the 3rd league. Another tennant is a local american football team the, Braunschweig Lions. And it currently is the only modern category A athletics stadium in the state of Niedersachsen which is suitable for hosting international athletics competitions. 

Here is a PDF with the architects plans:
http://www.eintracht-stadion.com/fileadmin/downloads/stadion/Pressetexte/Kurz_Pr%C3%A4sentation.pdf

And here the stadium homepage with some more pictures and stadium info in German:
http://www.eintracht-stadion.com/index.php?id=259


----------



## bigbossman

Alemanniafan said:


> Eintracht Braunschweig are modernizing/ expanding their Eintracht-stadion.
> But it will remain a multipurpose stadium with athletics track.
> Interestingly clubs Fans and locals got themselves organized and sucesfully retained local politicians in a referendum from building a far more costly modern soccer specific arena.


why did they not want a proper football stadium? Seems stupid to me...


----------



## Alemanniafan

bigbossman said:


> why did they not want a proper football stadium? Seems stupid to me...


In the end I can also only guess, because it's just what someone from Braunschweig told me, that they really didn't want a soccer specific stadium there.

But fact is, that the city finances and modernizes the cities stadium and that the club just invests a minor portion into the whole project.
A real soccer specific stadium would have cost between 30 and 65 mio€ they argued. 
And with the examples of Dresden and Aachen and other clubs in mind they probably figured such an amount certainly could hardly be financed by the club without major financial support from the city.

Eintracht Braunschweig played in the third league last season and just advanced into the second league, so they also don't have a reasonable perspective ro play in the first Bundesliga anytime soon.

A small and cheap solution with the city covering most of the costs seems reasonable for the club and probably also for the city, because a modernisation is definetely necessary and anything else should certainly cost the city and the cub far more. And both aren't exactly the wealthiest with plenty of money to spend or waste, it seems very reasonable. And probably the maximum of financial support the club could expect from the city anyways, even if they wanted to build a far more expensive soccer only stadium.

But this guy (an Eintracht Braunschweig fan) mostly just talked about tradition and stuff like that, mostly arguments which I personally can't really share. But if that's what the clubs fans want, mostly a preservation of the status quo, with several additional upgrades and modernisations and everyone there is happy with it, why not?

It all makes sense and seems very reasonable or a smaller club. Far better than trying to build a fancy and overky ambitious soccerstadium and then soon after go bankrupt due to the lack of spectators - or have the taxpayers pay it all.

This project seems to give the club a basis for economical competitiveness.
A multipurpose stadium with VIP boxes and everything else that's needed, for relatively low costs. Seems like a pretty clever and good move for a second or third league club to me.


----------



## Gloin

http://www.isportconnect.com/index....stadia--venues-arena-infrastructure&Itemid=32

* Borussia Dortmund Stadium to Utilise Solar Power * 
Thursday, 30 June 2011 11:08

Borussia Dortmund have become the latest German soccer club to agree a partnership with a solar energy company.
Q-Cells, one of the world's largest manufacturers of solar energy products, are to install photo-voltaic panels to the roof of the Bundesliga champions' 80,720 capacity home Signal Iduna Park as part of a five-year deal worth a reported US$12.96m.
This follows similar deals between rivals Bayern Munich and Chinese firm Yingli Solar, and between Chaori Solar and FC Schalke 04. Reports suggest that the upgrade will make Signal Iduna Park energy independent and capable of producing electricity for the surrounding area.
Elsewhere in German soccer, BMW have extended their sponsorship of second-tier club Eintracht Frankfurt until the end of the 2012/13 season. The deal is likely to be worth a six-figure sum and entitles BMW to sector exclusivity as well as a strong presence on TV-visible advertising hoardings at the team's home Commerzbank Arena.


----------



## T3amgeist

Bayern Munich Basketball will play in the renovated Rudi-Sedlmayer-Halle, now named Audi Dome.


----------



## adeaide

*Mainz , Coface Arena*























if you want to see more stadia pictures , Please visit below URL.



http://cafe.daum.net/stade/Germany_future

http://cafe.daum.net/stade/Germany


----------



## Twister2010

New tribune for the Millerntor:uh:

Wave tribune


----------



## Twister2010

*The technical data:* Up to 14000 spectators find on to 11000 standing and 3000 seats hideout. „The wave “is to the playing field 136 meters long (to the holy spirit field 120 m), 27 meters highly, 32 meters low and goes over four ranks, whereby again back toward playing field graduates itself upper ranks. Behind the seat range of the Unterrangs withdrawn kiosk ranges for AFM, fan space/shop or the like are intended.

*„The doers “: *The engineer's office for structural design OSD under the direction of Professor Harald Kloft and the team of architects of Hamburg creative laboratories „Interpol + “, the 2008 based was developed and generally only client-independent projects. Responsible person architect are Timothy Pape (Interpol+) and Lutz duke (workshop 2).


*The idea:* Evenly no PR-Gag or megalomania (the grandstand e.g. is. 19 meters lower than the Munich alliance arena), as of critics subordinates, but a rudimentary construction without Schnick Schnack from the heart of a football fan see the responsible persons in their project, which is to transport the myth Gegengerade into a recent time. „The bribery at the basic form of the wave is the simple, elementary form, those the basic needs of the football fans after large proximity to the playing field, perfect view and common influence on the crews and the play takes up “, thus Professor Harald Kloft of OSD of engineers. „In the reason the draft is at the same time new and unusual, in addition, astonishing simply and in its clarity basicfunctionally developed. “The technical feasibility of the draft is from the beginning ensured „“.

http://de.babelfish.yahoo.com/trans...67040/9565360/-/&lp=de_en&btnTrUrl=Übersetzen


----------



## Alemanniafan

Twister2010 said:


> New tribune for the Millerntor:uh:
> 
> Wave tribune


That's just supposed to be leaked Information on one of two versions of possible proposals that are to be discussed behind cliosed doors within the club.

Rumors in the press say that one of the two versions is a classic one, just like the other new stands. And the other is supposed to be this wave stand
which If I remember correctly would end up being about 4,5 mio€ more expensive than the original plan.

I doubt it's a realistic proposal with a big chance of ever being built.
I guess it's just kind of an advertisement hoax the club and architects use to generate some press and a better image.

The club isn't exactly rich and therefore I seriously doubt they could ever afford anything more expensive than a classical and basic solution for the new opposite stand.

The general concept behind this wave stand isn't even exactly a completely new idea either. It has allready previously been discussed in Dublin to hang tiers underneath the roof for a stadium expansion, due to the lack of space.

It also seems to have some unsolved safety issues. Just immagine people on the upper tiers throwing with half filled beermugs for example.

The pictures do indeed look kinda neat though.


----------



## npmrsi

Alemanniafan said:


> That's just supposed to be leaked Information on one of two versions of possible proposals that are to be discussed behind cliosed doors within the club.


Actually, there has been an official press confererence today, where this wave stand was presented together with an alternative which would adapt to the already constructed stands.

The possibilities will be discussed and a decision will probably be made in late October.

You can read more on the official FC St. Pauli website (german):
http://www.fcstpauli.com/magazin/artikel.php?artikel=9566&type=2&menuid=57&topmenu=112


----------



## Deamond14

The President's Club Soccer (1.FCN) speaks of a new stadium for the club:

http://www.abendzeitung-nuernberg.de/default.aspx?ID=12396&showNews=1037161

The Easy Credit Stadion despite its renovation for the 2006 World Cup is water everywhere and fences collapsed. Not cool. The VIP seats are too many (about 1800) and the NCF is pitiful in relation to the club as Hoffenheim. So it is time to think about a new stadium for 2020.

Not really information in the article, except that it will not a common stadium with Furth (city on the outskirts of Nuremberg is the second division) and not located somewhere in the fields. At the moment no info on the location, capacity (50,000 in Nuremberg even in second division was full every weekends, so I think that will be the same size) or the shape of the future stadium.

Wait and see.


----------



## adeaide

*Bremen , WeserStadion*


----------



## Max BGF

I am positively surprised. Bremen made the optimum out of it. Hot roof!

Nuremberg won´t get a new stadium the next years, unless the club itself finances it.


----------



## trmather

Surely if Nuremberg can't look after the current stadium then they don't deserve a new one?


----------



## imbee

Chemnitzer FC to get new 15.000 stadium









http://www.chemnitzerfc.de









http://www.chemnitzerfc.de


----------



## japanese001

German stadium has been refined.


----------



## Matze20111984

*MUNICH - Audi-Dome (6,700) - former Rudy-Sedlmayer-Halle*

This is the Audi-Dome in Munich. The former name of the arena was Rudy-Sedlmayer-Halle, which hosted the basketball games during the summer olympic games 1972. 

From this year on, the arena will host the games of the BEKO-BBL basketball team FC Bayern München Basketball. Prior to this season, the arena was modernized for about 4-5 million € to fit new standards of security.

Here are some pictures of the arena today:






































Here is a short video of the start of a game:


----------



## MarqueeMoon

It turned out kinda cute, given the old UFO building at Westpark, of which I thought it was mainly inept to deliver anything. Enough for the team now. 
Hopefully in the remote future there will be done a lot more...


----------



## Quintana

Twister2010 said:


> *The technical data:* Up to 14000 spectators find on to 11000 standing and 3000 seats hideout. „The wave “is to the playing field 136 meters long (to the holy spirit field 120 m), 27 meters highly, 32 meters low and goes over four ranks, whereby again back toward playing field graduates itself upper ranks. Behind the seat range of the Unterrangs withdrawn kiosk ranges for AFM, fan space/shop or the like are intended.
> 
> *„The doers “: *The engineer's office for structural design OSD under the direction of Professor Harald Kloft and the team of architects of Hamburg creative laboratories „Interpol + “, the 2008 based was developed and generally only client-independent projects. Responsible person architect are Timothy Pape (Interpol+) and Lutz duke (workshop 2).
> 
> 
> *The idea:* Evenly no PR-Gag or megalomania (the grandstand e.g. is. 19 meters lower than the Munich alliance arena), as of critics subordinates, but a rudimentary construction without Schnick Schnack from the heart of a football fan see the responsible persons in their project, which is to transport the myth Gegengerade into a recent time. „The bribery at the basic form of the wave is the simple, elementary form, those the basic needs of the football fans after large proximity to the playing field, perfect view and common influence on the crews and the play takes up “, thus Professor Harald Kloft of OSD of engineers. „In the reason the draft is at the same time new and unusual, in addition, astonishing simply and in its clarity basicfunctionally developed. “The technical feasibility of the draft is from the beginning ensured „“.
> 
> http://de.babelfish.yahoo.com/trans...67040/9565360/-/&lp=de_en&btnTrUrl=Übersetzen


Can't imagine this ever getting build. Those top tiers are simply too dangerous, especially when used as standing area's.


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## Alemanniafan

Quintana said:


> Can't imagine this ever getting build. Those top tiers are simply too dangerous, especially when used as standing area's.


It definetely won't be built. Not very surprisingly, the club decided to build the traditional version which looks like this:


















(pictures from www.fcstpauli.com)

This decision was made in november 2011 and the very first minor preliminary preparationworks even allready started a few days ago, on 3rd of january this year. Right after the end of the season in may this year the major constructionworks will begin.

An interesting aspect about this stand is the limited space it is being built on and thus the difficulties they faced with providing propper emergency evacuation routes etc. 
Unlike the second rendered picture from the outside suggests, there is no space behind the stand available for fans to gather on. 
That space is a public fairground which will be in use during several of the matchdays, so fans will generally be entering and exiting this stand only from entrances in the corners of the stadium, not from the backside of the stand, as the rendering seems to suggest. And that does lead to some difficulties with the capacities of the emergency evacuation routes, because the stadium (especially this new stand) can't be evacuated onto an allready occupied fairground which itself could as well be filled up with masses of people during matchtimes.


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## GEwinnen

:shocked: extreme :shocked:


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## Andre_idol

That´s crazy :nuts:


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## Xtremizta

:O whaaaa!


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## SpicyMcHaggis

That's perfectly normal. Otherwise concrete blocks would crack  

Sign of a good engineering.


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## Rev Stickleback

SpicyMcHaggis said:


> That's perfectly normal. Otherwise concrete blocks would crack
> 
> Sign of a good engineering.


Yeah. It's one of those things that people see and assume must be dangerous, even though the bouncing is well within the safety levels of the structures. Engineers do often try to limit such bouncing though, because of the perception of danger.


It happens in the San Siro too. I was sat down the side of the middle tier, and you could feel the whole tier lifting and falling in time to the fans behind the goal jumping up and down.


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## ~Omri~

endrity said:


> There really isn't much new to build, pretty much every relevant club rebuild their stadium in the last decade or so.
> 
> I guess Freiburg could use a new stadium. Maybe Hertha move to a football-specific stadium but I am not sure they can finance that themselves. I would want to know a bit more about training grounds though. S04 launched this new plan but there have been no updates. BVB upgraded theirs and there were a few rumours about Bayern possibly wanting a new training ground as well.


What about Greuther Fürth and Karlsruher? Are these clubs planning to move to a new stadium?
In addition, what about the basketball club of Bayern Munich? Audi Dome is too old (even though its renovated).


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## endrity

omrivol said:


> What about Greuther Fürth and Karlsruher? Are these clubs planning to move to a new stadium?
> In addition, what about the basketball club of Bayern Munich? Audi Dome is too old (even though its renovated).


Furth is not really a big club, they are like a suburb of Nuremberg really. Karlsruher I guess could use a new stadium.


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## endrity

Leedsrule said:


> That dosent prove they prefer the new stadium. Tbh I'm with skaP187. Usually I prefer the new stadium and in most cases that's still true but I don't really like the Veltins and the old stadium was beautiful.


well if they liked the old one more, than the fans would have been going there more often than they did


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## ReNaHtEiM

omrivol said:


> What about Greuther Fürth and Karlsruher? Are these clubs planning to move to a new stadium?
> 
> In addition, what about the basketball club of Bayern Munich? Audi Dome is too old (even though its renovated).



As far as I know Red Bull made an offer to the city to build an arena at the current location of the olympic cycling arena for free which would be shared by Red Bull Munich (ice hockey) and Bayern Munich (basketball).

The only thing they want from the city is a prepared building site which includes the demolition of the cycling arena.

But to be honest i have no idea at which planning stage they are or if the project has been cancelled because of the failed olympic bid.


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## gazzaa2

endrity said:


> Furth is not really a big club, they are like a suburb of Nuremberg really. Karlsruher I guess could use a new stadium.


They stick out like a sore thumb with an 18,000 capacity in the Bundesliga (should they go up again). They need a renovation at least.

Braunschweig and Freiburg also have low capacities for the Bundesliga.


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## Lupin III

gazzaa2 said:


> They stick out like a sore thumb with an 18,000 capacity in the Bundesliga (should they go up again). They need a renovation at least.
> 
> Braunschweig and Freiburg also have low capacities for the Bundesliga.


The thing is Fuerth is famous as a club to be administered conservately, that means that its a club that never take chances to use too many money to risk going into red. That was why they cancelled their new stadium project, however they are as I understand it looking at modernize their current ground to a more modern 20k seater.

Karlsruhe new stadium is progressing but seems to become ridicuously expensive. This is the newest on Karlsruhe http://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadie...n&folder=sites&site=news_detail&news_id=10049

Regensburg and Chemnitz has just started on building theyre new stadiums however thats small stadiums with both 15000 seats.


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## GEwinnen

http://www.gelsenkirchener-geschichten.de/bild.php?bild=./userpix/44/44_flugplatz_swf_1.jpg

The area of Schalke 04 was an airfield during the war, as you can see in the picture (move the cursor over the image!)


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## Ladiesman020

Why do most german stadiums have a security fence round the pitch


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## Alemanniafan

Ladiesman020 said:


> Why do most german stadiums have a security fence round the pitch


We don't have these fences all the way around the pitch, but only in front of terracing sections. They're one of three possible solutions that are mandatory at the front of terracing sections (and only there) to prevent people in terracing sections from invading the pitch.

The fence or alternatively glass wall is simply the preferred and established way. Another theoretical option would be a ditch, which is nowadays considered unsafe though because it poses a health threat to fleeing spectators in case of a necessary evacuation onto the pitch and another theoretical alternative would be a wall type of barrikade. But the fence is widely and overal considered to be the best, safest and cheapest and the best accepted option by the fans.


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## Rev Stickleback

Has there not been thought to just not having fences, even if maybe only for home sections?

After all, how often do fans cause trouble and invade the pitch in their own ground?

There was a good few years in England when the fences came down, before grounds were all seater. There were predictions from some that taking down the fences would result in a lot of crowd trouble, but it didn't happen.


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## Alemanniafan

Rev Stickleback said:


> Has there not been thought to just not having fences, even if maybe only for home sections?
> 
> After all, how often do fans cause trouble and invade the pitch in their own ground?
> 
> There was a good few years in England when the fences came down, before grounds were all seater. There were predictions from some that taking down the fences would result in a lot of crowd trouble, but it didn't happen.


Now that you ask that, I must say it's a good question. But It somehow just hasn't ever been an issue here, at least not that I know of. The fans have just accepted the fenes which are sort of just there for ages which now. Discussions within fans and also between fans and authorities are much rather about finding ways to legalizing pyrotechnics or the so calles 50+1 rule preventing investors from taking over the majority of a clubs ownership shares, or about intorducing videoevidence etc. And every now and then some crazy politician or official comes along stating that he'd be wishing or planning stadia here should be turned into all seaters like in the UK. 


I personally must say, that even though I love historic photos with spectators standing and sitting right next to the pitches without any real separation at all, I'm actually pretty glad we do have these fences. 
My hometeam Alemannia Aachen for example have relegated down from the second league straight down into fourth league going bankrup and just recently coming out of bankruptcy. 
And in the past few years I've whitnessed more than one pitch invasion of guest fans here or at away matches. That was usually basically just possible because stewards and police let them invade the pitch to deescalate and control the situation trying to avoid a panic situation in the guest section. 
The result of all these guestfans pitch invasions were then automatically small groups of rampaging homefans also trying to get over to the guestfans to take the matter into theirn own hands, so to speak. 

And had the fences not been there, I'm certain that for example after Eintracht Frankfurts fans invaded the pitch here in Aachen and vandalized and tore down the goal net in our stadium into pieces for minutes and minutes, the homefans could not have been kept from invading the pitch as well, if the fences hadn't been there in place. 

And only god knows what could have happened if numerous homefans had also made it onto the pitch there. 
The police force, as large as their numbers were when they was present on the pitch, would have probably found themselves right in the middle of a complete disaster, virtually not having much of any chance to keep opposing fangroups separated on the pitch.

They allready were nearly helpless having to deal with the large crowd of vandalising guest fans from Frankfurt alone and certainly couldn't have managed the situation at all if an even larger number of Homefans had invaded the pitch as well. 

With all the Ultrafans and hools and these troublemaker issues, I personally find it pretty much out of the question to generally remove the fences in front of terracing sections. 

Of course usually nothing at all ever happens unless there is a high risk match between traditionally rivaling clubs or unless its some really extraordinarily important or extraordinarily emotional match. 

But you can never really say how a match develops in advance and how angry fans get at referees or players. Or in case of my own Club, which went through a pretty horrible time (or in the case of other clubs relegating a league down or not playing as successfull as expected), even also angry at the clubs own players or clubs own officials.

And if a situation heats up and and starts getting risky or partially out of control for whatever reasons (and be it only a very spectacular finish of a match), then you simply don't have the option of setting up fences all quickly. 

And unlike the large nets behind the goals, the fences here really only obstruct the views in the first rows. In case of the new Tivoli which has a steep stand about the 10 lowest terracing steps - maybe 12 steps if or 13 steps maximum you're not quite as tall as I am.

And to bring in a bit of history at the end of my posting:
In the now allready torn down old Tivoli which had been in use since the 1920ties where the stands were really really close to the sidelines Fans loved jumping onto the fences screaming and shouting atthe oponents players öole crazy maniacs, which was indeed not seldomly pretty scary and irritating for them.
That scaring and insulting the oppponents from the fences really close to the sidelines was quite a fun "sport" for Aachens homefans at those "good old days". :cheers:


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## gazzaa2

Padeborn's ground is way too small for the Bundesliga if they go up.


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## Lupin III

gazzaa2 said:


> Padeborn's ground is way too small for the Bundesliga if they go up.


As far as I know Paderborns ground comply with Buli rules. But yes its small, however just because Dortmund plays in front of 80.000 doesnt mean Paderborn cant play in front of 15000.


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## Guest

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/h...i-rhein-neckar-loewen-gegen-hsv-a-990255.html

If you have Chrome, use the translate extension like me 

After the new National Stadium in Warsaw broke a world record for volleyball attendance, yesterday it was Germany's turn to break the handball world record, with 44,189 fans attending Eintracht Frankfurt's soccer stadium.


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## Dan Caumo

5portsF4n said:


> After the new National Stadium in Warsaw broke a world record for volleyball attendance.





> The attendance record for a volleyball match is 95,000, achieved at Rio de Janeiro’s Maracanã Stadium in 1983. The Brazilians hosted the Soviet Union less than a year after falling to the Soviets in the 1982 World Championship. The Maracanã Stadium recently held the 2014 FIFA World Cup Final, while the Opening and Closing Ceremonies of the Rio 2016 Summer Olympic Games are also scheduled.


http://www.sportsfeatures.com/olymp...lleyball-at-2014-fivb-mens-world-championship


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## MaTTiC

^^
Back in 1983, was still allowed to use benches instead of single seats for each spectator... Old Stadion X-lecia which is now replaced by National Stadium, with benches has a capacity over 100 000 spectators... That`s just can`t be compared


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## Chris00

It was not a world record nevertheless.


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## Patrick

not much news here the last time. let's change this.

Saarbrücken plans to renovate its old stadium, renovation will begin next year in February.

























http://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadie...057&gal_id=587&bild_nr=0&gal_id=587&bild_nr=1









http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ludwigsparkstadion_Saarbrücken_001.jpg?uselang=de

the capacity will be reduced from 35k to 18k.


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## Patrick

Regensburg is currently building a new stadium (capacity 15.115):


























Progress on 11th of nov 2014









Webcam









Source: http://www.regensburg.de/neues-fussballstadion


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## Patrick

in December, Erfurt will begin to renovate its Steigerwaldstadion. capacity will sink from 19.4k to 18k.

















source: http://fanforum-deutschland.de/threads/laufende-stadionprojekte-in-deutschland.38283/

the running tracks and the main stand on the left have to stay








source: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Steigerwaldstadion_Panorama.jpg


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## bongo-anders

St pauli makes frequent updates on their new Nordtribune.

http://www.fcstpauli.com/home/stadion/stadionumbau/nord



And they also have a live webcam


http://millerntor.tv/


----------



## Ranma Saotome

Continental Arena, Regensburg - December 13, 2014:




























http://www.regensburg.de/neues-fussballstadion/webcam-bautagebuch/die-arena-baustelle-aus-der-luft-im-dezember


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## Spomasz

Does someone have visualisation of new St. Pauli stand ?


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## poguemahone

Ranma Saotome said:


> Continental Arena, Regensburg - December 13, 2014:
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Love that! What's the capacity?


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## Cager

^^

15.000.


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## smolki

I'm looking for information what is ratio in conversion seating to standing places. I've found, that it is from 1 seat=1,5 standing to 1 seat= 2 standing. Which one is more common in Germany?


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## Matze20111984

smolki said:


> I'm looking for information what is ratio in conversion seating to standing places. I've found, that it is from 1 seat=1,5 standing to 1 seat= 2 standing. Which one is more common in Germany?


In Dortmund it is 1:2,33.

In Munich it was 1:1,33 until this season, now it's higher after the renovation. But it is different in every stadium, it depends on the city regulations and what they allow.


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## Ranma Saotome

Continental Arena, Regensburg:

January 22




























January 31




























http://www.regensburg.de/neues-fussballstadion/webcam-bautagebuch/luftaufnahme-januar


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## Ranma Saotome

Millerntor Stadion - January 30:
































































Complete gallery: http://www.fcstpauli.com/data/news/stadion/nordtribuene/gallery/36859_6937


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## Lupin III

Ranma Saotome said:


> Millerntor Stadion - January 30:
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Any new pic on Chemnitz, Elversberg, Gazi and Heidenheim?

Also I heard that Saarbruckens new stadium (renovation starts i a few days)

How close are Freiburg, Karlsruhe and Zwickau to commence work?

What is the status of the plans in Aue, Furth, Darmstadt, Munster, Oldenburg, Krefeld, Post stadion and Wuppertal any chance of we will see any of those build in the nearest years?

Are Jena dead?
:lovethem:

Sorry for the many questions .


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## Ranma Saotome

Lupin III said:


> Any new pic on Chemnitz, Elversberg, Gazi and Heidenheim?
> 
> Also I heard that Saarbruckens new stadium (renovation starts i a few days)
> 
> How close are Freiburg, Karlsruhe and Zwickau to commence work?
> 
> What is the status of the plans in Aue, Furth, Darmstadt, Munster, Oldenburg, Krefeld, Post stadion and Wuppertal any chance of we will see any of those build in the nearest years?
> 
> Are Jena dead?
> :lovethem:
> 
> Sorry for the many questions .


Well, no problem for the questions  Lets see if I am able to reply them:

- *Chemitz*

West stand being built by now - Pics from January 21, 2015:




























Complete update here: http://www.cfc-fanpage.de/archiv/templates/news_detail_stadion.php?nid=5876&cp=0
Other older pics here: http://www.cfc-fanpage.de/archiv/templates/news_uebersicht_stadion.php

- *Elversberg*

Main tribune close to the completion - January 22, 2015:





































More pics here at the timeline: https://www.facebook.com/pages/SV-07-Elversberg/170953719623364

- *Gazi*

Works ongoing - February 19, 2015:




























More pics: http://www.stuttgarter-nachrichten.de/inhalt.stuttgart-degerloch-das-gazi-stadion-in-neuem-glanz.ccdc6525-f0da-4db3-a917-df276d1bc402.html
Previous updates here: http://www.stuttgarter-kickers.de/medien/umbau-gazi-stadion

- *Heidenheim*

Opened in September 4, 2010, currently being expanded form 13,000 to 15,000. Pics here: http://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadien/index.php?head=Aktuelle-Bilder-Ausbau-Voith-Arena&folder=sites&site=news_detail&news_id=11458&gal_id=623&bild_nr=1

- *Freiburg*

The referendum results given green light to the stadium construction on Wolfswinkel area, but that's not going to get ready before 2019.
There are planning and bureaucratic steps to go;

- *Karlsruhe*

http://stadiumdb.com/news/2014/03/germany_finally_solid_time_frame_for_new_karlsruhe_stadium

- *Aue*

http://stadiumdb.com/news/2014/11/new_design_the_cut_stadium_from_aue

- *Furth*

http://www.bild.de/newsticker-meldungen/sport/12-fuerth-23160388.bild.html

I'll look for info abou the other cities and update the post later.


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## MarcioHSG

Fc Ingolstadt leading 2.Bundesliga, any plans to increase Audi Sportpark capacity? 15k is too small for Bundesliga, they will lose too much money playing in a such small stadium.


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## ReNaHtEiM

Such a shame that they haven't built a bigger one 5 years ago. With all the Audi money they get it was foreseeable that they will end up in the Bundesliga sooner or later.


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## Matze20111984

Why should they build a bigger stadium, when they can't fill it? They already have problems to fill this stadium in their best season so far!

They only have an attendance of 8.789 per game this season!

And one should not forget, Audi is their sponsor yes, but not the owner like VW in Wolfsburg. So Audi isn't just paying for whatever Ingolstadt wants to build!


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## Guest

It's a shame some small teams get huge corporate backing (Wolfsburg, Leverkusen) while teams with big fanbases remain mediocre for decades (I'm looking at your Hamburg, Berlin, Koln, to name but a few).


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## gazzaa2

5portsF4n said:


> It's a shame some small teams get huge corporate backing (Wolfsburg, Leverkusen) while teams with big fanbases remain mediocre for decades (I'm looking at your Hamburg, Berlin, Koln, to name but a few).


A lot of the so called bigger clubs in Germany with the big fanbases are so badly run though. The likes of Stuttgart and Hamburg is a tale of epic mismanagement. Even Schalke to a degree although they make the CL. Even Dortmund ran themselves to the point of bankruptcy in the early 2000s.

We're starting to see more small clubs with small grounds making Bundesliga though. Padeborn, Furth and now Inglostadt and Darmstadt. Clubs like 1860 Munich and the bigger East German clubs all struggling. Although Karlsruhe could come back up, another club desperate for a modern stadium.


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## Ranma Saotome

March 10

Millerntor:
































































Complete album: http://www.fcstpauli.com/data/news/stadion/nordtribuene/gallery/37325_7169


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## Ranma Saotome

Millerntor's webcam:










http://millerntor.tv/


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## Ranma Saotome

March 27

Continental Arena, Regensburg:




























http://www.regensburg.de/neues-fussballstadion/webcam-bautagebuch/aktuelle-luftaufnahmen-vom-stadion


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## OnwardsAndUpwards

Really like that Regensburg stadium. The parking lots look to be really wasteful of space though.


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## gazzaa2

What happens with Darmstadt if they win promotion? That ground can't be up to Bundesliga standards.


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## Lupin III

gazzaa2 said:


> What happens with Darmstadt if they win promotion? That ground can't be up to Bundesliga standards.


They are currently working on a project for a new stadium, but I guess either some temporary stands (we have seen this before in germany) or play in Frankfurt, Darmstadt is basically just a suburb to Frankfurt.


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## GreenHornet553

Ranma Saotome said:


> Millerntor Stadion - January 30:
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Is that a flak tower in the background? What is that big concrete monstrosity?


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## Ranma Saotome

GreenHornet553 said:


> Is that a flak tower in the background? What is that big concrete monstrosity?


Yeah, a kind of it. That's a disco called Uebel & Gefährlich.


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## Ranma Saotome

April 14

Millerntor:























































Complete album here: http://www.fcstpauli.com/data/news/stadion/nordtribuene/gallery/41495_7383


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## Avangard-55

Paderborn want to expand the capacity for 3.000 to 18.000. Even if the go to the secong Liga, that are good news.


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## Ranma Saotome

May 10










https://twitter.com/fcstpauli


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## Ranma Saotome

Recent pictures (until May 12):





































Complete album here: http://www.fcstpauli.com/data/news/stadion/nordtribuene/gallery/41790_7560


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## Ranma Saotome

Recent pictures (until May 23):









































































http://www.fcstpauli.com/data/news/stadion/nordtribuene/gallery/41901_7629


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## Ranma Saotome

May 26

Continental Arena, Regensburg:





http://www.regensburg.de/neues-fussballstadion/webcam-bautagebuch


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## alexandru.mircea

^ what a lovely little stadium


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## Ranma Saotome

June 2










https://twitter.com/fcstpauli


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## bongo-anders

Is the new stand in angle with the 2 main stands, I'm thinking that if they ever wanted to close the gap between the stands will they match up.


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## gazzaa2

Darmstadt ground looks very modest for the Bundesliga.


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## Lupin III

gazzaa2 said:


> Darmstadt ground looks very modest for the Bundesliga.


Its just old. Darmstadt has on 2 other periods played in the 1.Bundesliga and the ground once held 32.000. The ground is looking at how a 1. Bundeliga ground typically looked in the 60s and the 70s.

They are however working on a plan to rebuild Böllernfaltor to a modern stadium, this club is a old traditionsverein that belongs up here and has been gone in some years and therefore needs to rebuild.


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## DimitriB

Question : I read rumours that 1860 München will leave the Allianz Arena and go back to the Stadion an der Grünwalderstraße.
Is the stadium still capabel for hosting games of 1860?
So yes, does someone has recent pictures of the stadium?


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## Matze20111984

DimitriB said:


> Question : I read rumours that 1860 München will leave the Allianz Arena and go back to the Stadion an der Grünwalderstraße.
> Is the stadium still capabel for hosting games of 1860?
> So yes, does someone has recent pictures of the stadium?


No it actually is not capable at the moment and it only hast 12500 places. So there is no chance to go back an play games in the 2. Bundesliga there.

But may be the Olympic Stadium might be an option in 2016


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## flierfy

DimitriB said:


> Question : I read rumours that 1860 München will leave the Allianz Arena and go back to the Stadion an der Grünwalderstraße.
> Is the stadium still capabel for hosting games of 1860?


They would have moved there apparently if they had been relegated. So, yes it is probably capable of hosting 1860 home matches in the 3rd division. But the club avoided relegation by a large chunk of luck. So they remain were they are.


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## darrenstrutt

I believe that 1860 still have long term plans to redevelop their old stadium, but they will always struggle to come up with the money whilst playing at the Allianz Arena. You're probably talking €40 million to bring that stadium up to the level that they would want.


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## Ranma Saotome

June 17










https://www.flickr.com/photos/martincroonenbroeck/18759725419/


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## Ranma Saotome

Some pictures of Millerntor's new nordtribüne (until June 5):


















































































More pics here: http://www.fcstpauli.com/data/news/stadion/nordtribuene/gallery/41964_7699


----------



## Ranma Saotome

Recent pics of Chemnitzer's:



















More pics here: http://www.cfc-fanpage.de/archiv/templates/news_detail_stadion.php?nid=5981&cp=0


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## MikeC9180

The posts /columns situated in St. Pauli's new Nord Tribune look to be quite permanent. That can't be right can it?


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## Ranma Saotome

MikeC9180 said:


> The posts /columns situated in St. Pauli's new Nord Tribune look to be quite permanent. That can't be right can it?


Yeah, those posts are permanent, since the nordtribüne's roof structure system is identical to that on sudtribüne.


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## forestforever

Ranma Saotome said:


> Yeah, those posts are permanent, since the nordtribüne's roof structure system is identical to that on sudtribüne.


That must be the most stupidiest thing, whoever decided this that must be a fool, you've got a chance to enhance the fans experience, you've just started the project and ok I'm not an expert but in this day and age, they couldn't find a way to have a post free standhno: and this is in Germany too, very strange.:bash:


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## smolki

They wanted to reduce costs


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## Ranma Saotome

July 16

Millerntor:










https://twitter.com/fcstpauli


----------



## usernametaken

So cute.


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## ddstr

forestforever said:


> That must be the most stupidiest thing, whoever decided this that must be a fool, you've got a chance to enhance the fans experience, you've just started the project and ok I'm not an expert but in this day and age, they couldn't find a way to have a post free standhno: and this is in Germany too, very strange.:bash:


if u hate this, check out charleroi's (belgian league) new roof.


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## Jim856796

*TSV 1860 Want to Build a New Home In Olympiapark*

TSV 1860 Munchen has revealed a new scheme to build a new stadium in the Olympiapark. A plot for the potential new stadium would be at the east of the Olympiapark, currently occupied by s dated ice hockey arena (the boxing venue for the 1972 Summer Olympics). Such a plot is very limited, so capacity for any stadium there would be in the lower 30Ks range.

People may ask why built a new stadium besides one that is left without association football use already? The existing Olympiastadion is far too big to balance cost and revenues, but it's also listed as a monument and it can't be altered in a way that would satisfy current association football needs.

Source: StadiumDB.com


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## Ranma Saotome

Continental Arena, Regensburg:

Lighting tests in the night of June 2:














































http://www.regensburg.de/neues-fussballstadion/webcam-bautagebuch/lichttest

Some pictures from June 30:














































http://www.regensburg.de/neues-fussballstadion/webcam-bautagebuch/30-juni-2015


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## Ranma Saotome

First test match in the stadium, July 7:














































http://www.regensburg.de/neues-fussballstadion/webcam-bautagebuch/testspiel


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## Ranma Saotome

Recent pictures:









http://www.br.de/nachrichten/oberpfalz/inhalt/stadion-regensburg-zahlen-zur-eroeffnung-100.html









http://www.ramasuri.de/195297/allgemein/eroeffnungsspiel-der-neuen-continental-arena/









http://www.regensburg.de/neues-fussballstadion/webcam-bautagebuch



















http://www.swr-regensburg.de/unternehmen/continental-arena/


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## Ranma Saotome

Finishing, the timelapse:


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## 1886

Jim856796 said:


> *TSV 1860 Want to Build a New Home In Olympiapark*
> 
> TSV 1860 Munchen has revealed a new scheme to build a new stadium in the Olympiapark. A plot for the potential new stadium would be at the east of the Olympiapark, currently occupied by s dated ice hockey arena (the boxing venue for the 1972 Summer Olympics). Such a plot is very limited, so capacity for any stadium there would be in the lower 30Ks range.
> 
> People may ask why built a new stadium besides one that is left without association football use already? The existing Olympiastadion is far too big to balance cost and revenues, but it's also listed as a monument and it can't be altered in a way that would satisfy current association football needs.
> 
> Source: StadiumDB.com


when TSV 1860 is willing to pay the new Stadium themselve, the Problem is resolved. but in the olympiapark ist is impossible. the City of munich is willing to give the Club a site at the fairground in Riem. why the Club do not take this possibility ? a naming right Partner could be found, i am sure


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## Jim856796

If any new stadium for TSV 1860 is developed within Munich's Olympiapark, then I think that small site can hold back the potential for the stadium's expansion past ~32,000. The reasoning for a capacity that small in the new stadium could be because of TSV 1860 having poor attendance in their current stadium (Alianz Arena).


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## canarywondergod

Could they not have splashed out on a bit more red paint for the standing only stand?


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## forestforever

ddstr said:


> if u hate this, check out charleroi's (belgian league) new roof.


You're not wronghno:I feel sorry for the Charleroi's supporters who've stuck with the club.


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## Ranma Saotome

July 24

Millerntor:










https://twitter.com/ReeceUTLR


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## Ranma Saotome

Millerntor by early July:









https://www.flickr.com/photos/matuman-hh/20471831481/









https://www.flickr.com/photos/matuman-hh/20465561945/









https://www.flickr.com/photos/matuman-hh/20292487509/


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## maurizio79

The Wildparkstadion in Karlsruhe will be rebuild. Club and City signed today the construction contract. Construction begin will be next year and concluded in 2019.
The new stadium will have a capacity of 35 and cost ca. 113 Mio €.


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## Rev Stickleback

maurizio79 said:


> The Wildparkstadion in Karlsruhe will be rebuild. Club and City signed today the construction contract. Construction begin will be next year and concluded in 2019.
> The new stadium will have a capacity of 35 and cost ca. 113 Mio €.


I'm going there in a few weeks. I'll be good to see it before it's knocked down.

I think it's the last of the old-style big oval type German grounds left (although there are smaller ones) and while the new ground will probably be good, it's a bit of a shame.


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## alexandru.mircea

^ it is. On the other hand, I remember watching Bundesliga highlights in the mid 90s when I got into football, and the look of the stadiums was a major put-off. I chose to focus on Spanish football instead, which was on the rise and the stadiums were so much prettier.


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## Spomasz

maurizio79 said:


> The Wildparkstadion in Karlsruhe will be rebuild. Club and City signed today the construction contract. Construction begin will be next year and concluded in 2019.
> The new stadium will have a capacity of 35 and cost ca. 113 Mio €.


Some photos ? 

And how is going construction of Freiburg new stadium ?


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## gazzaa2

alexandru.mircea said:


> ^ it is. On the other hand, I remember watching Bundesliga highlights in the mid 90s when I got into football, and the look of the stadiums was a major put-off. I chose to focus on Spanish football instead, which was on the rise and the stadiums were so much prettier.


Agree. It's a bit like with Serie A now and the state of their stadiums.

Freiburg and Darmstadt still have a nice old school feel. At least Freburg's is close to the pitch as well, a lot of the old German grounds weren't.


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## maurizio79

Spomasz said:


> Some photos ?
> 
> And how is going construction of Freiburg new stadium ?


not sure if this is the final design.
http://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadie...e&folder=sites&site=news_detail&news_id=15522


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## Ranma Saotome

Chemnitzer Stadion at July 7, 2016. Click to enlarge:















https://www.flickr.com/photos/fotografiestefanieoertel/


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## Ranma Saotome

https://www.flickr.com/photos/fotografiestefanieoertel/


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## Ranma Saotome

Steigerwaldstadion in Erfurt at December 16, 2016. Click to enlarge:

















https://www.flickr.com/photos/michael-panse-mdl/albums/72157677914677795


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## Ranma Saotome

https://www.flickr.com/photos/michael-panse-mdl/albums/72157677914677795


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## dinamo_zagreb

This one in Chemnitz is a gem, just love it!


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## Laurence2011

Great view for a track stadium!


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## Spomasz

Any uptade/ news from Sparkassen-Erzgebirgsstadion ?


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## Ranma Saotome

^^
Some pics from July 2016 to January 2017. Click to enlarge:

July 21



July 22



July 25



July 29



September 6



November 28



December 1



January 22



January 25



https://twitter.com/FCErzgebirgeAue

More pics here: http://www.fc-erzgebirge.de/verein-mitglieder/stadion/bilder/album1/stadionbau-aue/stadionbau-haupttribuene-2016/yag/Gallery/index/


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## Ranma Saotome

.........*FSV Zwickau*
________________________

Stadion Zwickau

- Capacity: 10,134;

- Cost: €21 million;

- Brokeground: February 6, 2015;

- Opening match: August 22, 2016 (FSV Zwickau 0 - 1 Hamburg).

_______________________________________________________

Some pictures, click to enlarge:























http://www.stadion-zwickau.de/stadion/mediengalerie/


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## Ranma Saotome

http://www.stadion-zwickau.de/stadion/mediengalerie/


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## Ranma Saotome

Progress in the works of Sparkassen Erzgebirgsstadion from April 27 to May 27. Click to enlarge:

April 27





April 28



April 30



May 10



May 14



May 23



May 24





May 27



https://twitter.com/FCErzgebirgeAue


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## nandoer

Any news on Freiburg? I thought they had plans for a new/redeveloped stadium?


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## Madiba

nandoer said:


> Any news on Freiburg? I thought they had plans for a new/redeveloped stadium?


They will start with the preparation for the new stadium in a few months (fall 2017). At the moment they are deploy the regulatory framework and choose the design.


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## luis.schlappkohl

Stuttgart announced its bid for the 2019 UEFA Europa League Final 
http://www.vfb.de/en/vfb/latest/news/internationals/2017/bewerbung-uefa-europa-league-finale-2019-/


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## Gadiri




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## RMB2007

> Entrepreneur Mey wants to help Munich 1860: "Building a stadium"
> 
> Entrepreneur Gerhard Mey will continue to invest as an investor at the TSV 1860 Munich and has already spent very ambitious goals. "I'm saying this very clearly: We are building a stadium for the TSV 1860 Munich!" Said Mey, who holds 50 percent of Webasto, an interview given by the Süddeutsche Zeitung (Friday). He has "two motivated investors on the side, who scratch with their feet and say: If you get it as you imagine everything, and if you are personally in front of the project 1860, then it is highly exciting for us, " An arena with 40,000 spectators was" realistic "for him in the long term.


https://www.tz.de/sport/fussball/ts...eigen-und-neues-stadion-bauen-zr-8568206.html


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## RMB2007

> 1860: Soon 15,000 in the stadium?
> 
> Munich's Lord Mayor Dieter Reiter announced at the home game of 1860 Munich against the SpVgg Oberfranken Bayreuth in Grünwalder Stadium that he wants to increase the stadium capacity to 15,000 seats.
> 
> Reiter told the evening newspaper that he wanted to make this possible in the coming winter break. As Stadionwelt reported , Mayoress Christine Strobel had also been in favor of expanding the number of spectator seats to 15,000. However, the expansion should start only in the summer break. "Funds are available in the budget, and we want to be able to afford them for the great fans and also for the young and aspiring team of the sixties," Reiter continued.
> 
> In the coming week, the mayor wants to meet with the sports department and clarify questions of statics. A large-scale concession of the currently not fully usable counter stands should help out and improve the problems with the static. But whether this work can be carried out in the winter, should result in discussions with experts.


https://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadi...n&folder=sites&site=news_detail&news_id=17167


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## RMB2007

> *Next week, the city council will vote on a capacity expansion of the Grünwalder Stadium , venue of TSV 1860 Munich. The city now inquired about an expansion to 18,500 seats.*
> 
> Now that it became known that a broken main fuse for the power outage and the associated game cancellation against the TSV Buchbach in the Regionalliga Bayern had the consequence, now Wednesday the city council will decide on the expansion to 15,000 spectator seats. Even though sections of the western curve in the Grünwalder Stadium are currently being opened up to fans, the audience restriction remains at 12,500 by the end of this season.
> 
> Although from a static point of view nothing would speak against an extension. Reason are the noise protection and the security concept. But a speaker of the department for sport and education told the "tz" that a small increase in capacity is well justifiable and also the noise emission would not be significant under licensing law. To ensure the planned 15,000 spectator seats, the club wants to build new soundproof doors, as well as reinforce the breakwaters and block separations.
> 
> The city had also inquired about an extension to 18,500 places, but more had to be repaired for this. For this, so the city, the entire west curve would have to be redeveloped and this would affect the game operation of 1860. However, the sports department says that a major refurbishment of the Lion Stadium would be urgently needed. For the club, a refurbishment in the long term would be good, since the stadium is currently "only" third-rate. Lord Mayor Dieter Reiter had recently declared a stadium capacity of 15,000.


https://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadi...n&folder=sites&site=news_detail&news_id=17239


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## Rover030

> *Construction work on Grünwald Stadium has begun*
> 15-12-2017
> 
> *Construction work on Munich's Grünwald Stadium is now underway. That's what the city announced. Accordingly, the blocks F1 and F2 are to be renovated first, then block J.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Munich - The Munich Building Department has started work on the reopening of the west curve. This was announced by the city on Friday. Accordingly, new breakwaters will be installed in blocks F1 and F2 and the grandstand steps will be repaired. Construction work is to continue as long as the weather permits, according to the city of Munich.
> 
> 
> Afterwards, block J is to be equipped with wave breakers, i. e. railings between the standing areas. It is planned to release the previously closed areas again after the winter break until the start of the match,"says construction supervisor Rosemarie Hingerl.
> 
> West curve to be put back into operation soon
> For the 2018/19 season, the stadium's capacity will be increased from 12,500 to 15,000 spectators. However, a new building permit is required for this, according to the city of Munich in its communication. The noise situation in the neighbourhood is therefore to be improved by noise protection measures. Beatrix Zurek, Sports Officer of the City of Munich, commented on the refurbishment:"Thanks to the planned construction measures, the western curve can be put back into operation soon. As a sports consultant, I'm very happy about that - after all, football depends not only on what happens on the pitch, but also on the atmosphere in the stadium."
> 
> In November, the Munich City Council gave the go-ahead for a redevelopment of the western curve. Since relegating from the 2nd Bundesliga to the Bavarian regional league, TSV 1860 Munich has played its home games in the Grünwald stadium. So far the crowd has been enormous, and the stadium is often sold out. The friends of the Sechzger Stadium had also stated that in theory up to 20,000 spectators would fit into the stadium. However, it would be a long way to go before then. However, the fact that the city has shown its willingness to talk and that the first construction works have now begun is a good sign for the future of the lions on Giesing's heights.


https://www.tz.de/sport/1860-muenchen/bauarbeiten-am-gruenwalder-stadion-haben-begonnen-9453068.html


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## Ranma Saotome

January 26

Sparkassen Erzgebirgsstadion. Click to enlarge:











https://www.mz-web.de/sport/fussball/umbau-fuer-20-millionen-euro-so-sieht-das-neue-erzgebirgstadion-in-aue-aus-29563464


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## d.henney

They should have integrated the main building better into the stadium structure. Those technical stuff ontop of the roof also looks aweful. Another thing that bothers me: That building, the main facade, isnt facing the city, it facing to a mountain, were it cant be seen by the most people passing by or going to the stadium. All other facades are ugly open concrete poles and stuff. Could have been better.


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## GEwinnen

*Gelsenkirchen - A new and smaller Parkstadion -15000*

Schalke 04 announced yesterday that the construction of the mini stadium on the grounds of the club is about to begin. Parts of the old, mostly demolished parkstadion will be integrated into the new stadium.
The completion of all buildings and pitches on the picture is planned for 2021.
In addition to the new stadium, a building that will serve as the transition between the training grounds and the Veltins Arena will be the heart of the complex. This building will be for the fans, a larger fan shop, a pub for the fans, the museum of the club and other facilities will be accommodated there.










The old Parkstadion (2000):


----------



## RMB2007

> Where does 1860 Munich play in the future?
> 
> After relegation from the 2nd Bundesliga in the Regionalliga Bayern drew 1860 Munich in Grünwalder Stadium. However, the stadium is not in second division - what is the long-term solution?
> 
> "I think the trend is back to the city stadium and the stadium is out of fashion on the green field. With a sixties stadium we have better marketing opportunities than with a new building in the prairie, where there is no relation to sixty. As far as lodges and business seats are concerned, we need to find creative solutions, "said Reisinger.
> 
> The desire is clear: The stadium on the Grünwalder road is to be rebuilt and expanded. A return to the Allianz Arena is completely excluded. Even a move to the Olympic Stadium is unrealistic, but not entirely off the table. "If we could find such a solution as in Leipzig, such a stadium in the stadium. That would have something. I would be there for that. Make everything a little tighter, lawn heating. It could also be a home, "Reisinger said.


https://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadi...t&folder=sites&site=news_detail&news_id=18704


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## RMB2007

*1860 Munich*



> *Munich Mayor Dieter Reiter has commissioned a feasibility study, which will analyze an expansion of the Grünwalder stadium. Three different scenarios are being examined.*
> 
> The Municipal Stadium on the Grünwalder Straße currently has a capacity of 15,000 - and is used at the home games of 1860 in the season so far always to 100 percent capacity. The Giesinger could probably easily sell more tickets, if it allowed the stadium then. Therefore, Munich's Mayor Dieter Reiter commissioned a feasibility study so that the question of the possible number of spectators in the Grünwalder Stadium can be answered. The call for tenders for the study runs until 31 January, three months after the award, the report will be presented.
> 
> *Three different scenarios are being examined for their feasibility and affordability: a possible expansion to 18,600, 25,000 or 30,000 seats.* Important aspects with regard to safety, traffic, noise protection and urban planning should be examined. The requirements of the DFL with regard to licensing for the second or first Bundesliga should also be considered. The time required for a conversion to the respective capacity is also examined in the study.
> 
> Although the current capacity of 15,000 is also sufficient for higher leagues, other requirements, such as in the area of ​​boxes and VIP areas, are not yet met. Also logistical problems because of the narrowness in the residential area or parking facilities for TV-broadcasting vehicles should be clarified by the study.


https://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadi...s&folder=sites&site=news_detail&news_id=18774


----------



## Rohne

Starting 2020 Waldstadion in Frankfurt will be modernized for Euro 2024. Also the capacity will be expanded. Exact numbers are not yet official, but it's expected to be an increase from 48500 to 53800 seats (for Bundesliga/DFB Pokal where standing is allowed capacity will increase from 51500 to 60-61000).
Eintracht and City of Frankfurt are still negotiating about which party will pay how much for this though.

Sources, i.e.:
stadionwelt.de
FAZ.net


----------



## derzberb

*SC Freiburg New Football Stadium (~35k)*

Freiburg im Breisgau:













































source: scfreiburg.com

Expected opening 2020


----------



## RMB2007

*1860 Munich*



> City Council receives feasibility study in June
> 
> Can the stadium be extended on Grünwalder Straße? And if so, how many viewers can find maximum space? The result will be presented to the City Council in Munich on June 24th.
> 
> At the last plenary session of the city council before the summer break, the theme of stadium expansion will be discussed. After the analysis, the city council must decide how to proceed with the home of 1860 Munich.
> 
> BILD reported in mid-June that the hoped-for capacity increase from 1860 to 30,000 seats was probably not feasible. The upper limit is apparently at 18,000 spectator seats, which would probably bring no great profitability for the club, since a first-line conversion would require enormous investment.
> 
> On July 19, 1860 opened the season of the 3rd league with a home game against Prussia Münster.


https://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadi...i&folder=sites&site=news_detail&news_id=19751


----------



## RMB2007

*1860 Munich*












> The long-awaited feasibility study for the expansion of the stadium on Grünwalder Straße is here. The stadium could be rebuilt Zweitligatauglich, the result is sobering for the club but.
> 
> The absolute upper limit for an expansion of capacity in the Municipal Stadium on Grünwalder Straße is 18,060 spectator seats. An increase in viewer capacity beyond that is not possible and would even jeopardize existing football operations. But even the increase of 3,060 seats from the current 15,000 to 18,060 is not readily possible.
> 
> These are the most important results of the feasibility study, which the architecture and planning office Albert Speer and Partner has created on behalf of the City of Munich. The feasibility study will be presented in the plenary meeting of the city council on Wednesday. The most important findings are:
> The capacity cap of the stadium is 18,060. An increase in seats beyond this number is not permitted for legal reasons (for example, planning law, sound insulation). Structural measures can only be inventory-oriented.
> 
> The goal of expanding capacity could even be reversed: the establishment of a new development plan, which is indispensable, leads to new tests (number of parking spaces, sound insulation), which according to the experts of Albert Speer and Partners "not completed successfully can "be. An increase of 18,060 seats would mean even the end for the professional football operation in the stadium.
> 
> The scope of recommissioning of previous authorized capacity can be assumed to be 18,060 places. So far there is no planning permission, but would be mandatory for the operation. Currently, the stadium is expanded and approved for 15,000 seats.


https://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadi...t&folder=sites&site=news_detail&news_id=19794


----------



## RMB2007

^^



> City Council decides on future
> 
> On July 24, the city council of Munich decides on the plans to rebuild the Grünwalder Stadium - several parties have already signaled their approval. The Olympic Stadium is still an option.
> 
> The result of the feasibility study on the conversion of the Municipal Stadium on Grünwalder Straße is on Wednesday topic in the Munich City Council. Already on Monday met the deputies of the individual city council factions to discuss the feasibility study. Both the CSU and SPD as well as the Greens and the Bavarian party have already announced that they want to agree to the plans.
> 
> *In addition to the Grünwalder Stadium, the Olympic Stadium will also be the topic of the city council session.* *The planning office Albert Speer und Partner, which has already designed the feasibility study for the Grünwalder Stadium, has also been working on a renewed upgrade of the Olympic Stadium.
> 
> The results show that it would be possible to use the stadium up to a capacity of 40,000 spectators.* According to the plans, the pitch will be moved closer to the covered grandstand - the counter would not be used in the game mode. In comparison to the municipal stadium on Grünwalder Straße, the necessary infrastructure would already be available in and around the stadium, so that no major investments would have to be made there.


https://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadi...t&folder=sites&site=news_detail&news_id=19803


----------



## Tlg_55

*Premier League Stadiums 2019/20*

Bundesliga Stadiums 2019/20

https://youtu.be/V4uatqsXPtg


----------



## sbarclay62

Hi all

Looking for some advice.

For a game at the Arena AufSchalke that kicks off at 6pm, would I make it back to Gelsenkirchen Main Station for 9.10pm? I have a train connection I have to make as its the last one. Not sure how busy the tram or roads are after the match.

Thanks :cheers:


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## aidan88

You should do, but don't hang about after the full time whistle, get straight into the queue for the tram back to the hbf.

I was at the hbf 30 mins after the final whistle when I went last season.


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## RMB2007

*1860 Munich*












> City of Munich announces expansion of Grünwalder
> 
> The city ​​of Munich has announced the expansion of the municipal stadium on Grünwalder Strasse to 18,105 spectators. However, objections to the city's plans can be raised until the end of February.
> 
> A feasibility study had identified this capacity as the maximum possible at this location. First, however, the audience capacity of 18,060 suitable for the Heimatverein 1860 was discussed, but now the maximum expansion is to follow.
> 
> The corresponding study was presented in July . Objections can be raised to the city until February 24th. It was recently announced that the residents around the stadium feel that they are insufficiently informed.


https://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadi...t&folder=sites&site=news_detail&news_id=20553


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## Salazar Rick

Really nice the last stadium in the images


----------

