# Suburbs aren't in other countries



## NorthStar77 (Oct 8, 2003)

Most Norwegians, 87%, live in suburban style houses. The reason is that urbanism came 
relatively late in Norway, as in the US. 67% of Norwegians live in houses built after 1961.

Typical houses that most Norwegians would consider normal:









Some western Oslo suburbs I've googled, just to give some examples.

Parts of Oslo's biggest suburb, Bærum, with 105.000 inhabitants. 
I have my work in this suburb.









More Bærum









Bærum agian...









I've got several more of Bærum, but enough is enough. Here's part of Asker, with 55.000 people.









Asker..









This is outside the town of Drammen


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## Dezz (Mar 11, 2005)

This is another big suburb in The Netherlands. It's called 'Leidsche Rijn' and it's part of the city of Utrecht. 
In the future it will have some 100.000 inhabitants.


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

Dense parisian suburbs


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

Very nice pictures I must say. The pictures taken around the Bois de Vincennes park have almost a New York feel to them...


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Looks like American style suburban sprawl is becoming popular.


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## spongeg (May 1, 2006)

i think though now - American Cities are rediscovering their inner city as buildings are converted to lofts and condos or new apartment residences go up

people it seems are tired of the traffic and the suburbs and downtowns are being revitalized and city centres are becoming more lived in and densification seems to be the key word for a lot of city revitalizations


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## grachtengordeldier (Mar 7, 2006)

Suburbs like Leidsche Rijn (and many others) in the NL are not really sprawl. They are built much denser, with small gardens (if at all), very close to the mother city. We don't have as much space as in the USA, Canada etc. If we would build like that, the whole country would be one big suburban thing!


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## ROCguy (Aug 15, 2005)

Kiss the Rain said:


> Who said dense living has to be in dirty slums, i lived in apartment in china for 10 years and had the greatest time of my life, you wont believe the livelyness and the atomsphere of urbanity. If you love suburbs, then you might as well quit the forum, pretty sure none of us here dont like them.


I don't "love suburbs". But they aren't the culturless hell holes you people think they are. And my point was that suburbs weren't the worst places to live.... crime infested slums are much worse. No shit not everyone lives in the slums in the city, that wasn't what I was saying. And I have to ask to eveyone posting on here.... what's with these pre-decided populations. Do the suburbs in Europe just get ALL pre-built to accomadate a certain population and then just "open" for habitation or what? Suburbs and cities both have their positives and negatives. It's all a matter of preference and priority.


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## Æsahættr (Jul 9, 2004)

_le neuf-trois_


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## Accura4Matalan (Jan 7, 2004)

We have loads in the UK. The older ones are very different to American ones with semi-detached housing. New ones are almost the same. No wall in front garden, often a double garage, 4 bedrooms... (like the one you see in Harry Potter)


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## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

ROCguy said:


> what's with these pre-decided populations. Do the suburbs in Europe just get ALL pre-built to accomadate a certain population and then just "open" for habitation or what?


No they aren't. It's just like in the US actually. Some suburban districts are built all in the same time, with houses all looking the same in order to reduce costs and sell houses cheaper, but even if that practice tends to devellop it's still marginal in European suburban landscapes.


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

There are tons of suburbs in Switzerland, but it's not American style: these towns are mostly 1000 years old already and have still a core with some old houses. In the 1950 and 1960s some of them went under big development when the city planners started the London concept of "New Towns". Since then the country started a huge sprawl that connected all these towns (most of them have only an area <1000ha!) around the centers and the Swiss midlands is nowadays merged together 

Some examples:

Bremgarten-Mutschellen near Zurich (you see not less than parts of 6 municipalities)









Typical commieblock Banlieu suburbs from the 1950-1970s (Meyrin, Geneva)









The population development in the metro Zurich 1970-2000:








As you can see the central cities lost ut to 1/4 of the pop while some suburbs got more than 4 times bigger in the same time. Suburbanisation doesn't only result into urban sprawl, but also into the distruction of historic structures (dialects, religions, age and social structure of the pop...), example: Spretienbach:


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## Cloudship (Jun 8, 2005)

virtual said:


> Those are still uncomparable to american suburbs, and the majority of parisian suburbs are a mix between very small houses (on american standards), housing projects and low-rise buildings.


What do you consider american style suburbs, then?


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

The average american suburb I consider is something between this









and this 











When this is you average parisian suburb


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## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

warmaster08876 said:


> I've been to Europe many times, and one thing that I rarely see is suburb communities.


Neat, I've seen loads of them over there.



brisavoine said:


> Northwestern suburbs:


For a few seconds, I swore this was one of our burbs here -- I was trying to guess where it could be here . . . . 

Cheers,
Chris


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

elkram said:


> For a few seconds, I swore this was one of our burbs here -- I was trying to guess where it could be here . . . .


The picture was actually taken (not by me) in Montigny-lès-Cormeilles, a suburb located 19 km (12 miles) to the northwest of the center of Paris.


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

It all has to do with money.
I,ve lived in Melbourne for the best part of the last ten years.One of the most suburbanized and extended cities in the world.
I also lived in Madrid for over a year.One of the most compact capitals in Europe.
These are the two examples that i can use from knowing both of them well enough.And the fact that they are two complete opposites.
Just take a look at a map of Melbourne.I think that you would be able to fit Madrid twenty times over within its urbanised boundaries.The thousands of roads,parks,shopping centres and extended infrastructure cost an enormous amount not only to build but also to maintain.The only major hickup Melbourne seems to have is the not very effective public transport.It's great in the city centre.But try getting from a Melbourne suburb fifty kms in the west to a suburb that's 70 kms to the s/e.The enormous distance alone tells you that it's an absolute nightmare.
Madrid on the other hand has a metro which is just fantastic.But within a far more compact area.Melbourne would need to build a metro ten times the size to have any real positive effect.
So there is one point that Madrid easily wins.
Now let us look at lifestyle.In Melbourne you can live 20 kms from the city centre in a suburb that has absolutely everything at hand.In a good size low rise house,with large backyard,swimming pool,double garage etc....Which is pretty normal here in Melbourne.
Where as in Madrid a normal citizen would live in a very cramped piso.Most probably double-parking or even triple-parking his car in a far away street
With neighbours noise galore.
So basically in an area where one thousand inhabitants would live in Melbourne you would probably have twenty times the amount of people living in a similarly sized area in Madrid.Obviously because there are far less roads to build,parks,parking places etc....
So that's one where Melbourne kills Madrid.
So basically both styles of living have good and bad points.But there is no doubt that most people that can afford it would prefer to live the more affluent lifestyle of living the typical Melbourne way.
Another thing altogether is living in a luxury apartment in the centre of the city say in la Castellana in Madrid or docklands in Melbourne.But that is in a different class altogether.
I just laugh the way many Madrlenios categorize themselves to be living in a Castellana or Docklands scenario.When the truth is that the majority live in tiny,ugly,badly built pisos in terribly badly planned suburbs.


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## premutos (Mar 17, 2006)

European suburbs are better, they have transportation, they are accesible, they have supermarkets, theaters, all sort of stuff near them that allows you to have kind of like city atmosphere, on the other hand American suburbs are MASSIVE, without a single trace of culture........ car oriented, nothing but houses and highways not interesting at all!!!

A city of 500.000 people in the US is pretty much a dead city, a city of 500.000 people in Europe is a metropolis full of culture, entertainment etc.


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## DGM (Aug 8, 2005)

I think we can all agree that sprawl sucks. It is inefficient, boring and causes lots of traffic. Here is a good illustration of American sprawl from KCGridlock at SSP. The area shown in this picture is only a small fraction of the suburban sprawl in this city.


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

premutos said:


> European suburbs are better, they have transportation, they are accesible, they have supermarkets, theaters, all sort of stuff near them that allows you to have kind of like city atmosphere, on the other hand American suburbs are MASSIVE, without a single trace of culture........ car oriented, nothing but houses and highways not interesting at all!!!
> 
> A city of 500.000 people in the US is pretty much a dead city, a city of 500.000 people in Europe is a metropolis full of culture, entertainment etc.


A typical European suburb is total poverty compared to suburbs in Australia or Canada.And everything you mentioned that you can do in a European city can just as easily be done anywhere else.i.e theatre,supermarkets.What the hell makes you think those things only exist in Europe?
Europe has for a long time been the cradle of civilisation.Not anymore.You only have to see the laughable Eurovision contest.With non-English speaking countries singing in English with American accents.And songs about as intellectual as a dodo.We have a great laugh with Eurovision.European culture at its most intellectual.
The smart Europeans left Europe a long time ago.


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## grachtengordeldier (Mar 7, 2006)

By the way, Carola should have won! ;-)


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## Cloudship (Jun 8, 2005)

grachtengordeldier said:


> Funny to see how a thread goes to live it's own life...from suburbs to discussions about who's most intellectual...
> Could someone give me a definition of the word suburb?
> 
> In my idea a suburb is with detached houses (most at least), a bigger or smaller garden around it, totally depend on cars (no or little public transport), nothing to do in cultural things or the 'better' shops (whatever that may be). I think mostly of big, not densely populated countries as N. America, Australia...sometimes Europe.
> ...


I think we sometimes tend to measure things in terms of housing styles instead of anything else. As someone from New England, I tend to look at a suburb as a smaller community that regulates itself legally (anotherwords, has it's own town or city government), but tends to be thought of as an adjunct to another, larger city. For instance a suburb is it's own town, but people from there, when refering to home while someplace abroad, almost automatically say they are from the larger nearby sity. And in some ways a suburb can have it's own suburbs (for instance a large city might have satelite cities, which have their own suburbs). I think suburb is not synonymous with eith sprawl or housing developments.


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## Sideshow_Bob (Jan 14, 2005)

In my mind it's the location that defines what's suburbia and what's not. There are inner suburbs which can resemble the city core, and then there's the NA style suburbs aswell as others..


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

willo said:


> when did you live in Madrid??¿' in 1980?¿?¿¿?¿ :runaway:
> 
> not most of the people live in ugly pisos.furthemore there a lot of villages too in the suburbs area, mainly up to the north ant southeast.a Backyard?¿?¿ well, my quarter is full of gardens but if i want more i can go to many parks. swimming pool in every house¿?¿¿? i'm sorry to tell you that's a huge waste o water. anyway there are some public swimming pools in every quarter and some private others in people's houses (villages, new ''pisos''). the pisos you are talking about are being built with swimming pool and gardens since some years ago (don't know exactly, but since about 10 years ago, at least)
> 
> warning: i'm not saying madrid is more sprawl or has more villages than melbourne



I wish i knew Madrid in 1980.I hear it was a very exciting time with the Movida.I lived there about seven years ago.You just said it.What a waste of water??? I don't think wasting water is a primary concern for most Spaniards.
And when it comes to help protect the planet Spaniards aren't exactly the most enthusiastic people around.As you would know from the ease in which Spaniards are more then likely to throw rubbish on the ground without giving a rubbish bin a second thought.
Like i've said it has to do with un-affordability.And i don't think that most of the poorly planned pisos in Madrid are there due to the citizens choice.It's just due to greedy developers.
Just last Saturday the 27th of may there was an article in a popular Melbourne newspaper ''The Age''.That staed that just 23% of Madrilenios between the age of 25 and 29 could afford their own place.The rest had to live with their parents.It also stated that pisos in some areas of Madrid Madrid rose by 400% in the last five years.While wages hardly went up at all.
It's a problem that i remember too well when i was living in Spain.And unfortunately it looks as though things haven't changed much.
I also had a friend that lived in Villalba-Collado.And remember the much more pleasent surroundings and much better plannification as opposed to many other atrocitties found in that city.And i'm sure that city planners have learnt from their mistakes and are trying to make ammends these days.But the fact of the matter is that it is going to take many more new well planned developments and years before Madrid shakes of its reputation for being known as a badly planned metropolis (outside of the city centre) among foreigners..


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

By the way Willo.In what part of Madrid do you live.As i more then likely would know it.I know Madrid extremely well to be honest.


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

And just to give you another example an Argentinian friend of mine that lives in Melbourne was in Madrid last August (2005).I know that it is probably the worst month to have gone to Madrid.Hot and pretty dead.Unfortunately she stayed with a friend in ugly Torrejon de Ardoz.One of the first things she told me was that who could possibly have planned those horrible suburbs and that those barrios were absolutely ''Horrorrosos''.
I actually told her that Madrid was probably even nicer then Barcelona and that she didn't get the true picture of how wonderfull Madrid is due to lack of time.I know because i lived there for a year.
But unfortunately this is the idea many foreigners have of Madrid.


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

Just one other thing.Where do los galacticos of Real Madrid or the bussiness executives of corporations from Tres Cantos live?In La Moraleja or there abouts.In those large luxurious chalets.What's that telling you?


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## garpie (Jan 5, 2006)

It's a fact that land price in Spain (as in the rest of W.Europe) is way too high for american-ozzie style suburb-building... at least for urban developments close to city centres.

And yes, a middle-class-person could as well get one of those marvelous "adosados" at the same price as a piso... if you are ready to live 50 kms far from the city centre and bear car dependancy for every little move in your life (as for menial tasks such as buying bread n' paper) Which would set you into ozzie-american standards again (but with kms of crops and nature in-between instead of urban sprawl between your HOUSE and the city).






You humble middle classer could even afford an Unifamiliar if you go 50kms further (then you'll be only 100 kms away), so that you just commute 45 mins til you reach the city. You'll feel this car-given roadrider-greatness that only New World dwellers get in their vast and laaaarge countries 



Yes, they DO exist in Spain. And by just paying the same money you'd pay for a city piso. Or even less if you live in a pueblo. It's just depends on the distance travelling you can bear.


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## willo (Jan 3, 2005)

Peshu said:


> I wish i knew Madrid in 1980.I hear it was a very exciting time with the Movida.I lived there about seven years ago.You just said it.What a waste of water??? I don't think wasting water is a primary concern for most Spaniards.
> And when it comes to help protect the planet Spaniards aren't exactly the most enthusiastic people around.As you would know from the ease in which Spaniards are more then likely to throw rubbish on the ground without giving a rubbish bin a second thought.


this has changed a lot thankfully. and concerning the water, in madrid we can't waste that amount of water. the explanation is simple. In Madrid city hardly rains 400-500mm going up to 1000mm up to the north. teh ponds of the region are located in zones with 700 mm/year.



Peshu said:


> Just last Saturday the 27th of may there was an article in a popular Melbourne newspaper ''The Age''.That staed that just 23% of Madrilenios between the age of 25 and 29 could afford their own place.The rest had to live with their parents.It also stated that pisos in some areas of Madrid Madrid rose by 400% in the last five years.While wages hardly went up at all.


very true. the price od the houses have risen up a lot in last years. concerning the ''pisos'' and villages, as other forumer have said, a medium people could buy a village instead of a ''piso'' (apartment), but the fact is people likes to live in a Piso 5 km from the center than living in a village 20-30 km from the city center.




Peshu said:


> By the way Willo.In what part of Madrid do you live.As i more then likely would know it.I know Madrid extremely well to be honest.


Santa Eugenia. Maybe you don't know it. It's ok. i live in a 70's building and the quarter is quite good: full of gardens and parks,supermarkets,public pool(indoor one and outdoors ones)...very quite indeed.


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

garpie said:


> It's a fact that land price in Spain (as in the rest of W.Europe) is way too high for american-ozzie style suburb-building... at least for urban developments close to city centres.
> 
> And yes, a middle-class-person could as well get one of those marvelous "adosados" at the same price as a piso... if you are ready to live 50 kms far from the city centre and bear car dependancy for every little move in your life (as for menial tasks such as buying bread n' paper) Which would set you into ozzie-american standards again (but with kms of crops and nature in-between instead of urban sprawl between your HOUSE and the city).
> 
> ...


It's quite different in Spain to places like Australia.
I looked at properties (urbanizaciones de chalets adosados in far away places like around Aldea del Fresno).The urbanizaciones i saw had very few Chalets adosados and were pretty much in Between the middle of no-where.
With very limited facilities.
I live about 15 kms from the c.b.d.It takes me about ten minutes on the freeway to get to the city centre.And about half an hour by train.
It's a ten minute walk to a huge shopping mall from my place.With night-clubs,mega sized cinemas and every other facility imaginable with-in the shopping complex.
If i'm only after the basic.I'm only a five minute walk from another smaller shopping centre.Tennis courts,parks,gymnasiumns etc....are not even a fifteen minute walk from my house.Plus i have a bus stop about three hundred metres away.So let's not compare those smallish urbanizaciones 50 kms from Madrid to the suburbs that are virtual mini-cities that exist in places like Melbourne.
I think alot of you people get confused with comparing those tiny urbanizaciones to the suburbs of places like Melbourne.
When i lived in Mostoles the local supermarket was about a five minute walk just like it is here.Not every block of pisos has a shopping centre,theatre etc..two minutes away.There are as many facilities if not more in a typical Melbourne suburb then the are in many of those piso crazy suburbs in Madrid.
We just heven't got as many nightclubs here


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

@Willo.
I have to say Santa Eugenia doesn't really come to mind.
Which well known area is it next to?


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

@Willo.
By the way i remember little villages like Valmojado(40 kms from the city of Madrid) i bought some furniture over there.And Maqueda and Santa Olalla on the N/5.And believe me i wouldn't want to live there either.With their three shops and poor infrastructure.
Most of those roads look like they were made for Cabras :hahaha: 
And those villages are nothing like the suburbs in Melbourne :hahaha: 
I still remember seeing a tiny Urbanizacion in Santa Olalla.The chalets adosados were pretty average to be honest.And like i said i wouldn't live in those boring ugly places if they paid me :hahaha: 
I can certainly understand why any normal person would prefer to live in a piso in Madrid then in a village.But like i said Willo.The suburbs of Melbourne are nothing like those villages :hahaha:


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## willo (Jan 3, 2005)

Peshu said:


> @Willo.
> 
> I can certainly understand why any normal person would prefer to live in a piso in Madrid then in a village.But like i said Willo.The suburbs of Melbourne are nothing like those villages :hahaha:


no one is comparing these villages to the ones of melbourne but we are saying that there's a lot of villages too. there was a village boom since about 7 years ago






























































































Peshu said:


> @Willo.
> I have to say Santa Eugenia doesn't really come to mind.
> Which well known area is it next to?


here it's a photo from google earth. it's on km8 of A-3 freeway


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## ROCguy (Aug 15, 2005)

SuomiPoika said:


> Firstly let me make it clear to you that the fact that there wouldn´t be any lowrise family house suburbs in Europe is a bloody myth. There are plenty of such suburbs, but Europeans have usually found it more pleasant to live in the city centre. However now-a-days people more and more move to the suburbs and buy a house you would concider "typically American". Both American and European suburbs are great and i´m sure there´s a lot to do in both of them. Kuesel´s pointed out that European cities are much more alive than American ones and that´s true.
> 
> And what do you mean by saying Europe isn´t the cradle of civilisation any more? Do you think America is? More likely Europe, only the Asian culture can match the European one.
> As far as the eurovision is concerned, do you really think anyone here takes it seriously? It´s only a silly tradition, and we laugh at it too.
> ...



Yeah, you know, except for that one dude named Albert EINSTEIN, who fleed from Europe to America to escape mass genocide. I'm sure that most of the "samrt" people never left Europe, but plenty of smart ones sure did. Europe was never the cradle of civilization, that was Mesopotamia.


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## Paddington (Mar 30, 2006)

A lot of American morons go on a European trip and think every place in Europe is like Westminster in London or central Paris. :bash: 

Hell most of London is not like Westminster.


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

@Willo.
Sorry about the info on the villages as i actually meant to direct that info to the forumer Garpie who did seem to be comparing those Villages to Melbournes suburbs.Once again i ask for perdon.
Those shots of Santa Eugenia and surrounds are cool.And i obviously must have gone close to Santa Eugenia as i remember the A3 which i think was the N/5 when i was there is the highway which takes you to Valencia,which i went to by car twice while i was in Spain.
I guess you are not far away from Moratalaz which i have been to and remember not being far from the A3?
Anyway there still seems to be a fair bit of land around those parts which is probably a good thing.As this certainly means that the newly constructed suburbs will be well planned.
Anyway Willo.You should probably visit this part of the world one day as you would get to see just how different it is to Madrid.
The friend i stayed with that lives in Mostoles already came here in 2004.He was more surprised by how incredibly extensive,green and the houses that the people live in then anything else.Although the only thing he didn't like was how quite it is compared to Madrid.Although in that respect Madrid is Madrid,and i wouldn't be surprised at all if it is the loudest city on the planet.
So many of you guys are obssesed with partying  Although i know that many of you guys are also extremely hard working.


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

P.s i also remember Coslada which is in one of those photos.


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

Man.What an idiot.I meant that the A3 was known as the N/3 when i was there.Not the N/5.I'm still thinking about Valmojado
:runaway:


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## willo (Jan 3, 2005)

Peshu said:


> Man.What an idiot.I meant that the A3 was known as the N/3 when i was there.Not the N/5.I'm still thinking about Valmojado
> :runaway:


yeah. it was know as N-3. my quarter is just about 1 km or 2 from Moratalaz.maybe you remember that surpassing moratalaz by car there's a litlle hill and a pine forest (and now there's a zoo too in the surroundings). my quarter is on the other side of the highway, but i can access the forest (they are tracks to run or mountain biking) and the hill by two bridges.

on the other hand, i'd love to visit melbourne someday. those sprawl suburbs full of villages must be very cool


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## Peshu (Jan 12, 2005)

I can't exactly recall that bridge with the pine forest next to it.But i do clearly remember seeing suburbs in the distance and there was still a fair bit of vacant land around it which they will obviously build on in the future if they haven't already.I remember Moratalaz being a pretty good suburb.
You live only a couple of kms from Moratalaz?Who knows i may have bumped into you in a bar?  
Anyway if you ever decide to visit Australia just let me know :cheers:


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