# The most densely-populated place on Earth



## Chrissib

The highest density in Europe is the la Florida district in L'Hospitalet de Llobregat, Catalonia in Spain. It's got a density of 77,000/km², but it stood at 150,000/km² 30 years ago.

Link to the source: http://www.l-h.cat/anuarisEstadistics_2.aspx?id=2 

It's the statistical yearbook of the city, just click on Anuario 2007.


I Think highest in the first world country is Santo Antonio parish in Macau with a density of 102,615/km².


Pictures of La Florida:


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## the spliff fairy

Hong Kong all the waaaay


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## clive3300

That is insane. Looks like a city from Star Wars or something.


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## lordcreso

The *Santutxu* neighbourhood in Bilbao (Basque Country, Spain) is the most densely populated neighbourhood of Bilbao and Europe, at 41,430 hab/km2, as Wikipedia says.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santutxu


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## Chrissib

lordcreso said:


> The *Santutxu* neighbourhood in Bilbao (Basque Country, Spain) is the most densely populated neighbourhood of Bilbao and Europe, at 41,430 hab/km2, as Wikipedia says.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santutxu


La Florida in Hospitalet in Catalonia is 77,000/km². see Post #21.


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## Substructure

Wikipedia contradicts itself, the most densely populated place IS Paris, especially the 11th district.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_arrondissement_of_Paris



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris said:


> Paris is the most densely populated city having a population of more than 1,000,000 in the Western world[citation needed]. Its density, excluding the outlying woodland parks of Boulogne and Vincennes, was 24,448 inhabitants per square kilometre (63,320/sq mi) in the 1999 official census. Even including the two woodland areas its population density was 20,164 inhabitants per square kilometre (52,224.5/sq mi), the fifth most densely populated commune in France following Le Pré-Saint-Gervais, Vincennes, Levallois-Perret, and Saint-Mandé, all of which border the city proper. The most sparsely populated quarters are the western and central office and administration-focussed arrondissements. The city's population is densest in the northern and eastern arrondissements; the 11th arrondissement had a density of 40,672 inhabitants per square kilometre (105,340/sq mi) in 1999, and *some of the same arrondissement's eastern quarters had densities close to 100,000/km² (260,000/sq mi)* in the same year.


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## Skybean

Küsel said:


> but I thought Macau has the highest density:





Chrissib said:


> I Think highest in the first world country is Santo Antonio parish in Macau with a density of 102,615/km².


Mong Kok, Hong Kong 160,000 / Km^2 (400,000 / mile^2)


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## PedroGabriel

Male is not the most beautiful thing but looks cool.



Küsel said:


> Well because maybe it's the original one in the revolutionary meaning of the early 1800s
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> but I thought Macau has the highest density.


I also thought it was Macau. it must have been in the past. Anyway, for some shots that I've seen of HK and this, it must be one of the countries with the lowest quality of living in the developed world. It is full of huge concrete walls.


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## gladisimo

For those saying Macau, you are technically right because Macau is much smaller, and almost all of it is developed. Thus, if just given territory figures, Macau's figure is very high, and HK's figure is actually quite low. 

But, HK has a lot of land that is undeveloped, and thus, the overall figure for HK is skewed way lower than the actual situation.


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## gincan

Chrissib said:


> The highest density in Europe is the la Florida district in L'Hospitalet de Llobregat, Catalonia in Spain. It's got a density of 77,000/km², but it stood at 150,000/km² 30 years ago.


La Florida is 0.38km² so it's not that large, there are several small areas within Barcelona that have similar or even higher densities. Some of the blocks in Eixample have close to 300 apartments. On 0.01km² with on average 3.5 persons per apartment, that gives a density of more than 100.000.


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## Küsel

gladisimo said:


> For those saying Macau, you are technically right because Macau is much smaller, and almost all of it is developed. Thus, if just given territory figures, Macau's figure is very high, and HK's figure is actually quite low.
> 
> But, HK has a lot of land that is undeveloped, and thus, the overall figure for HK is skewed way lower than the actual situation.


Macau is the densest "country" in the world, Monaco second. But they are city states. Interesting here are neighbourhoods and then probably some parts of Paris could actually lead. Even though what about Favelas as Rocinha or Heliopolis or the big slum in Mumbai? They all have over 100'000pop on a very tiny area:


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## BrickellResidence

yeah but it is really ugly mexico city doesn't even have those kind of slums.


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## the spliff fairy

er this aint a beauty contest. The fact is 1 million people live in places like Dharavi. That makes them more dense whether theyre pretty or not.


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## NYCboy1212

think that cities that become toooooo dense, they are unlivable and unhealthy. It also tends to make a city look like they have no living standards.


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## Chrissib

gincan said:


> La Florida is 0.38km² so it's not that large, there are several small areas within Barcelona that have similar or even higher densities. Some of the blocks in Eixample have close to 300 apartments. On 0.01km² with on average 3.5 persons per apartment, that gives a density of more than 100.000.


OK, but teh neighboring areas also have densities over 40,000/km².


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## Saigoneseguy

Saigon streets are the densest on Earth
everyday traffic:




























Sometimes u just wish ppl to disappear at your finger snap.


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## brisavoine

The densest urban district in Europe is the 11th arrondissement of Paris, at 41,598 inh. per km² in 2005. La Florida in L'Hospitalet de Llobregat is not an urban district, it's a small neighborhood. There was a thread about this issue and it was all discussed already. The second densest district in Europe is Chamberi in Madrid, and the third densest is the Eixample in Barcelona.


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## gincan

Chrissib said:


> OK, but teh neighboring areas also have densities over 40,000/km².


True, but the area is still relatively small, the 11th arrondissement of Paris is 3.7km² with 40.000 on average.

In Barcelona you find three very dens neighbourhoods.

1 Sagrada Familia
area 1.04km² 
Population 53.000 

2 Gracia village
area 2.05 km²
population 84.000

3 Raval
area 1.08km²
population 47.000


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## gincan

brisavoine said:


> The densest urban district in Europe is the 11th arrondissement of Paris, at 41,598 inh. per km² in 2005. La Florida in L'Hospitalet de Llobregat is not an urban district, it's a small neighborhood. There was a thread about this issue and it was all discussed already. The second densest district in Europe is Chamberi in Madrid, and the third densest is the Eixample in Barcelona.


Chamberi has lower density than Eixample, 31.000km² to 35.500km². Actually, Las Delicias district in Zaragoza is more dens than Chamberi with 33.600/km².


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## brisavoine

This map shows the population density in central Paris at the 1999 census. The 11th arrondissement, the Central Business District (QCA in French), and La Défense are highlighted. Some neighborhoods (with green borders) in the eastern part of the of the 11th arrondissement indeed have densities reaching 100,000 inh. per km². The overall density of the 11th arrondissement is lower due to neighborhoods with lower densities, especially in the western part of the 11th.










The highest floor density is not to be found in the 11th arrondissement however. The highest floor density in Paris, and I suspect also in Europe, is to be found in the CBD, particularly around Opéra-Haussmann. La Défense also has a very high floor density due to the skyscrapers there, but it is not shown on the map.


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## Küsel

SaiGoNeseKiD said:


> Saigon streets are the densest on Earth
> everyday traffic:
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How is it possible that Saigon's economy WORKS? I mean Bangkok is already horrible and they loose billions of GDP in traffic jams every year. But here they must loose 70%! 

Check this up: http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/20/wo...rm_1221congested_slide_2.html?thisSpeed=15000
http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html
But it's not very accurate numbers and strange comparisments but interesting to read


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## Chicagoago

the spliff fairy said:


> The Square Mile in London has a residential population of 3000 by night, rising to near 400,000 by day.


Yeah, I've always been facinated by that in Chicago as well. No natural or physical reasons why the area isn't more spread out, but the central business district (the Loop) is a tightly packed cluster of highrises smashed together. From what I've found it's estimated that from a population of maybe 1,000 at night, the area has over 500,000 people working, 54,000 going to school and thousands more shopping, visiting and doing business in an area of roughly 1 mile. 

So for every person sitting downtown at 4am, there are up to 600 a few hours later.





































Of course many places are like this though, but it's always interesting that some of the highest density places on earth (if only for part of the day) are actually the safest areas of an entire city. This is true for Chicago. 

As far as residential populations, we don't really come close. I believe the Near North is the densist with around 48,000 per square mile, or 124,300 per sq km.


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## gincan

brisavoine said:


> The densest urban district in Europe is the 11th arrondissement of Paris, at 41,598 inh. per km² in 2005. La Florida in L'Hospitalet de Llobregat is not an urban district, it's a small neighborhood. There was a thread about this issue and it was all discussed already. The second densest district in Europe is Chamberi in Madrid, and the third densest is the Eixample in Barcelona.


Well, what an urban district really means is debatable. You know the urban districts of L'Hospitalet might be small (0.8-0.9km²) but they are non the less urban and with densities of 57.000, 53.000 and 45.000 there are three urban districts in this small city that are denser than the 11th arrondissement.


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## Cymen

SaiGoNeseKiD said:


> Saigon streets are the densest on Earth
> everyday traffic:


Only most crowded (dense) because everybody takes a motor cycle! Indian city's like Bombay(Mumbai) and Madras(Chennai) are much more busy. Traffic in Vietnam was acceptable to me, but in India it was horrible. 


Anyway, we all know the answer of this thread. Most dense built land = Hong Kong.


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## Saigoneseguy

^^ lol, and I thought it's one of its kind of a hellhole here, I guess i should travel to India then. 

Last year Saigon lost nearly one billion dollar due to traffic, and that was the number from the city council.


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## mhays

Hong Kong's lack of scooters, cars, and even bicycles is part of what makes it liveable. There are no scenes like the Saigon pictures. Nearly everyone uses transit or walks. Plus they have a lot of skybridges, particularly in Central. I don't like skybridges in general but they have helped solve the street-level jam.


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## gladisimo

We have underground tunnels as well, particularly in the bigger MTR stations. You can literally live your daily life without ever going outside in HK


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## Inconfidente

^^ Interesting, but don't you feel oppressed some times?


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## Wey

Right now, I don't know... but pretty soon the most densely populated area in the world will be this darling right here...










(I don't mean Dubai, but more especifically, the Burj)


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## romanamerican

Wow, by looking at the pictures (especially the housing in Hong Kong) I'm extremely happy that the US, and some parts of Europe, have such a low density. People look like chickens in cages stuck on each other for mass production, absoloutly horrible.
Suburbia development, even though not ecologically intelligent (at least for the way it spreads, but perfect for home-generated electricity) is by far the most relaxing and family oriented development. Try letting your children play in the street in a place like HK (and let's not bring NY as a counter-example because even NY has a major suburbia development).
But I guess not everybody can live like that: apart from obvious luxury (that is, living in a suburb), if every chinese lived the american way, the entire planet would be covered. How sad...


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## mhays

Often, cities of vastly higher density than US suburbia have tons of parks, and quiet streets. Those are way better for raising kids than places where even older kids need to be driven everywhere. Boredom and isolation are reportedly why drug use is so high among suburban teenagers. 

I'd take it a step further, and say suburban kids' dependence on mommy is related to the dependence some college kids and even 30-year-olds have on mommy.


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## el casanovas

gincan said:


> Well, what an urban district really means is debatable. You know the urban districts of L'Hospitalet might be small (0.8-0.9km²) but they are non the less urban and with densities of 57.000, 53.000 and 45.000 there are three urban districts in this small city that are denser than the 11th arrondissement.


What really baffles me is how somebody can say La Florida isn't "urban". The whole municipality of L'Hospitalet is conurbated with the city, served by tube lines, insanely dense, etc. It's just another district of Barcelona, really. Of course, this might mean it'd be a better idea to consider L'H as a single neighbourhood, but first of all it isn't: the different neighbourhoods were built at different times, with different planning criteria (or in most cases absence thereof, but that's another story), and they have different sociological traits, different areas of influence, etc. You also have to keep in mind that there are TWO railway tracks cutting through the city and pretty much acting as a barrier you can't get through. So at least you'd have to separate Samontà (Northern Hospitalet) from Marina (Southern Hospitalet). Actually, it'd be more like Old Hospitalet (Centre and Sta. Eulàlia), Northern Hospitalet (La Florida, Can Serra, Pubilla Cases, Collblanc, Torrassa, etc.) and Marina (Bellvitge and Gornal, basically. The area around Plaça Europa has become quite distinct, although future operations on Gran Via Ave. will prolly integrate Gornal into Districte Econòmic somewhat.) And it'd be a wise idea to separate Collblanc and Torrassa as well, as they have a special relationship with Les Corts and Sants in Barcelona. They also have some old town parts, which is kind of weird in L'Hospitalet (most of L'Hospitalet was built after 1960 and populated with inmigrants, so the presence of "old town" parts is sociologically and urbanistically relevant: the fact that in Collblanc and Torrassa they are way smaller than in Centre or Sta. Eulàlia, and the fact that their original population is fleeing to Martorell or Barcelona is also relevant of course.)

Bottom line is: if you merge La Florida with Les Planes, Can Serra and Pubilla Cases, the density figures won't really change much at all, they'd probably stand around 50000 inhabitants/km^2 or so. This is still denser than the 11ème arrondissement as a whole: but of course if you're just gonna take the densest parts of the 11ème then the whole debate doesn't make any sense at all (not that I care about Catalonia holding the title: actually I wish we could just demolish L'Hospitalet and build a better planned city in its place... but we'd have to tackle Badalona, St. Adrià and Sta. Coloma first, now that's poor urban planning.)

Also: there's no way Manhattan is so dense unless you are completely ignoring the existance of Central Park.

By the way, I'm curious about the density of Sants, Les Corts, etc., especially Sants as it's where I'm from. I think Sants, Hostafrancs and Bordeta are over 100000 inhabitants so they must be pretty dense... I've found data for the Sants-Montjuïc District, but that's not really useful as it includes other neighbourhoods and most importantly Montjuïc.


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## urbanjim

Svartmetall said:


> Département 75 (Paris City Proper) has a very close density than New York at 24,448people/km squared (63,320/sq mi). The 11th arrondisment has a density of 40,672 people/km squared (105,340/sq mi) with some areas close to 100,000 people/km squared (260,000/sq mi) which beats New York, thus New York doesn't have the most dense district in the world. This data is also based upon the 1999 census data - populations in central Paris have probably increased since then.


I apologize for jumping to an incorrect conclusion. Manhattan doesn't have the highest population density in the world. Clearly, it's Hong Kong. But Manhattan is probably the densest place in the Western hemisphere, right?


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## -Corey-

Küsel said:


> Well because maybe it's the original one in the revolutionary meaning of the early 1800s
> 
> Well Sampa also has its share of density (but the city area is quite huge that's why it is seldom mentioned...)


That's ugly


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## the spliff fairy

urbanjim said:


> I apologize for jumping to an incorrect conclusion. Manhattan doesn't have the highest population density in the world. Clearly, it's Hong Kong. But Manhattan is probably the densest place in the Western hemisphere, right?


I heard it was central Paris in the West (check out the scale of the Eiffel Tower; its only one third the panorama):


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## bayviews

urbanjim said:


> Mind-boggling fact: The place with the highest population density in the world is Manhattan, New York City, with 66,940 persons per square mile.
> 
> More specifically, the Upper East Side is the densest portion of Manhattan, and the zip code 10162 has a density of 152,798 persons per square mile!
> Obviously, the reason this is possible is due to the fact that everyone there lives in high-rises.
> 
> Outside of New York, I am curious as to what the next-densest place would be. Hong Kong, perhaps?


We've already been though this before. Nope, its not Manhatten or anywhere in NYC. Its Dhakia, capital of Bengladesh. Hong Kong, Mumbai, Kalcatta, & a few other, mostly Asian, cities are up there.


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## gincan

el casanovas said:


> Bottom line is: if you merge La Florida with Les Planes, Can Serra and Pubilla Cases, the density figures won't really change much at all, they'd probably stand around 50000 inhabitants/km^2 or so. This is still denser than the 11ème arrondissement as a whole


If you combine the three adjacent districts (2,4 and 5) north of the railway you get an urban area of 2.6km² with an average density of 48.500. The 11th arrondissement has an average density of 41.500 over 3,7km². If you combine Gracia with Sagrada Familia (they are next to each other) you get an urban area of roughtly 3km² with a density of 46.000km². So it is not as simpe as saying the 11th arrondissement is the densest, I'd say they are all very dense areas but to say any of them are denser than the other is difficult since they all have unequal density distribution within them.


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## el casanovas

gincan said:


> If you combine the three adjacent districts (2,4 and 5) north of the railway you get an urban area of 2.6km² with an average density of 48.500. The 11th arrondissement has an average density of 41.500 over 3,7km². If you combine Gracia with Sagrada Familia (they are next to each other) you get an urban area of roughtly 3km² with a density of 46.000km². So it is not as simpe as saying the 11th arrondissement is the densest, I'd say they are all very dense areas but to say any of them are denser than the other is difficult since they all have unequal density distribution within them.


Yeah, I guess that's right. I don't see why would you merge Gràcia with Sgda. Família, though, there's a small part of Gràcia which follows the Eixample grid (this is specifically called Gràcia Nova) but other than that there's little relation between the two neighbourhoods, while in Hospitalet it kind of makes sense to merge districts 2, 4 and 5 since there's a high degree of mobility between the three (district 2 is sort of more related to Les Corts and Sants, but 4 and 5 must definitely go together as for example people from La Florida might want to catch the tube at Pubilla Cases and people from Pubilla Cases might go to Les Planes to buy stuff, etc. District 2 does have some relation with 4 and 5, too. It's also the biggest comercial area in Hospitalet, and while it's not too popular with people from Barcelona it's always pretty crowded so it must attract people from other districts of l'Hospitalet)

But yeah, I think you're right, they're very uneven and it's not so simple.


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## CborG

Anyone ever heard of Hashima Island?


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## gincan

el casanovas said:


> I don't see why would you merge Gràcia with Sgda. Família, though, there's a small part of Gràcia which follows the Eixample grid (this is specifically called Gràcia Nova) but other than that there's little relation between the two neighbourhoods


It was only to show that there are urban areas in europe that have comparable size and density to the supposed holy grail of european urban density that is the 11th arrondissement.


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## jjsheed

^^ compare those densities with Dhaka:

City Population: 7,000,940
Density: 45,508/km2 (117,865.2/sq mi)


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## the spliff fairy

cardinals1 said:


> *Hong Kong*
> - City 6,708,389
> - Density 6076.4/km2 (15,737.9/sq mi)
> ]



ad nauseum...

Hong Kong is made up of thousands of km of open countryside, and 236 outlying islands. Not only that but that countryside is entirely empty - the percentage of the population that is urban is 100%.


Hong Kong *urban area*: 137 km2
Population: 7,018,636
Density: *51,230/ km2 (132,685/ sq mile)*



.


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## Shera

cardinals1 said:


> *New York City*
> - City 8,363,710
> - Density 10,606/km2 (27,440/sq mi)
> 
> *Hong Kong*
> - City 6,708,389
> - Density 6076.4/km2 (15,737.9/sq mi)
> 
> *Tokyo*
> - City 12,790,000
> - Density 5,847 /km²
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> *Manhattan*
> - Total 1,634,795
> - Density 27,490.9/km2 (71,201/sq mi)
> 
> *Paris*
> - Total	2,203,817
> - Density 25,360 /km2 (65,700 /sq mi)
> 
> 75, 92, 93, 94 is what counts as "city" (2,2 mil) and we have density data for that only and not for the entire metro area of Paris (12 mil). That's why I put Paris next to Manhattan until we get metro data so we can compare it to NYC.


I'm wondering why the urbanized area directly north of Paris is not considered part of the metro area of Paris, but it's closer to Paris than the rest of other parts around it that are considered metro Paris?!? 



jjsheed said:


> ^^ compare those densities with Dhaka:
> 
> City Population: 7,000,940
> Density: 45,508/km2 (117,865.2/sq mi)


Ouch! 7 million people in such a small area, denser than Manhattan or central Paris!




the spliff fairy said:


> ad nauseum...
> 
> Hong Kong is made up of thousands of km of open countryside, and 236 outlying islands. Not only that but that countryside is entirely empty - the percentage of the population that is urban is 100%.
> 
> 
> Hong Kong *urban area*: 137 km2
> Population: 7,018,636
> Density: *51,230/ km2 (132,685/ sq mile)*


LOL, exactly ad nauseum! Some people do not give statistics too much thought! Thanks for the data..


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## cardinals1

^^ I was wrong about the city limits. Only 75 is "city" (2,2mil) and I've also found density data for Paris metropolitan area.

- Total 11,794,000
- Density 973.5/km2 (2,521.4/sq mi)

And NYC metro:

- Total 18,815,988 (2007 est.)
- Density 1,077/km2 (2,792/sq. mi)

Perhaps French people would like to answer the question about Paris metro limits? Anyone here?


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## Shera

the spliff fairy said:


> ad nauseum...
> 
> Hong Kong is made up of thousands of km of open countryside, and 236 outlying islands. Not only that but that countryside is entirely empty - the percentage of the population that is urban is 100%.
> 
> 
> Hong Kong *urban area*: 137 km2
> Population: 7,018,636
> Density: *51,230/ km2 (132,685/ sq mile)*


However.. the data that you used for urban area was very old. It has expanded quite a bit after a lot of development (new buildings). So many 30-40 floor buildings have been built within the last decade--perhaps as much as 70% of all the existing 40+ floor buildings are less than 10 years old. Many of them have been built on hillsides, resulting in less forested areas.

Some other sources state that the current urban area of HK is anywhere between 100 and 130 square miles, which makes much more sense after looking at Google Earth. The total land area of Hong Kong is just over 400 square miles.

Interestingly, Kowloon has been becoming less dense as HK continued to expand. 

The urban area density of the entire developed area of HK is anywhere between 55,000 per sq. mile and 66,666 per sq. mile after taking the newly expanded urban area into consideration.


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## Saltwater_Sydney

I was watching a show on Mumbail (Bombay) Railway the other day and they said certain parts of that city exceed one million people per square mile, which would be right up there!


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## the spliff fairy

Interesting...

http://www.huawei.com/success_stories/umts/simpleres.do?id=662&type=general_catalog

"The main urban area of Hong Kong has a complicated radio environment with a population density of 250,000people/km2, a building density of 630 buildings/km2, and an average building height of 45 meters."


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## the spliff fairy

Shera said:


> However.. the data that you used for urban area was very old. It has expanded quite a bit after a lot of development (new buildings). So many 30-40 floor buildings have been built within the last decade--perhaps as much as 70% of all the existing 40+ floor buildings are less than 10 years old. Many of them have been built on hillsides, resulting in less forested areas.
> 
> Some other sources state that the current urban area of HK is anywhere between 100 and 130 square miles, which makes much more sense after looking at Google Earth. The total land area of Hong Kong is just over 400 square miles.
> 
> Interestingly, Kowloon has been becoming less dense as HK continued to expand.
> 
> The urban area density of the entire developed area of HK is anywhere between 55,000 per sq. mile and 66,666 per sq. mile after taking the newly expanded urban area into consideration.


What source please?

So youre saying HK has tripled in size in 8 years?


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## Shera

the spliff fairy said:


> What source please?
> 
> So youre saying HK has tripled in size in 8 years?


Here's one source that gathers data from like 8 different sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_by_population

Wiki links to several sources that link to several others. I've personally seen it from 3 different sources. Looking at Google Earth and judging for self also does some good.

272 square km translates to 105 square miles, which is roughly 1/4 of the total land area of Hong Kong territory, which looks exactly right after observation.











I could also try to subtract all the park area from the total land area of Manhattan to do similar adjustments. Manhattan and the Bronx are two city districts that are the most highly consisted of parks--the percentage is among the top for the large cities of America (if not the top 2, IIRC..). 

Anyways, here's some exciting data: http://www.demographia.com/db-hkca.htm


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## Skybean

Why don't you use district information for Hong Kong? You can clearly see the dramatic difference in density from district to district. 









source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Districts_of_Hong_Kong









Aerial of Mongkok



> Mongkok is not only Hong Kong’s most populated area, but the world’s. According to the Guinness Book of Records Mongkok is the most densely populated place on the planet, squeezing in over 130,000 people per km2.
> 
> That translates to 336,000 ppl/sq mi


In comparison with some central Shanghai districts

New Huangpu - 12.41 km² with 574,500 = 46293 ppl / sq km
Luwan District - 8.05 km² with 350,000 = 43478 ppl / sq km
Jing'an - 7.62 km² with 305,300 = 40000 ppl / sq km
Zhabei - 29.26 km² with 810,211 = 27690 ppl / sq km
Hongkou - 23.48 km2 with of 799,700 = 34058 ppl / sq km


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## the spliff fairy

the spliff fairy said:


> What source please?
> 
> So youre saying HK has tripled in size in 8 years?


#


I misread your post Shera, I thought you said HK _urban_ was 400 sq. miles (hence why the city would have grown 3x it's size)


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## Shera

Skybean said:


> Why don't you use district information for Hong Kong? You can clearly see the dramatic difference in density from district to district.
> 
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> source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Districts_of_Hong_Kong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aerial of Mongkok
> 
> 
> 
> In comparison with some central Shanghai districts
> 
> New Huangpu - 12.41 km² with 574,500 = 46293 ppl / sq km
> Luwan District - 8.05 km² with 350,000 = 43478 ppl / sq km
> Jing'an - 7.62 km² with 305,300 = 40000 ppl / sq km
> Zhabei - 29.26 km² with 810,211 = 27690 ppl / sq km
> Hongkou - 23.48 km2 with of 799,700 = 34058 ppl / sq km


Unfortunately, Mongkok is no longer an "official" district. It was combined with another district in 1996, into Yau Tsim Mong, which is a bigger and less dense area overall (less dense than the entire urban Kowloon). 

Anyway, you missed out on the link that I provided in my previous post, which stated an SAR constituency area (Tsuen Wan Centre) with 1,127,686 per square mile!!! That's probably the world record for a census tract! 

Here's the link again:

http://www.demographia.com/db-hkca.htm


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## urbane

Gukanjima is fascinating, same with the former Kowloon Walled City.


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## gooseberry

At it's peak, the ancient city of Rome is thought to have had a population of 1 million in an area of about 426 hectares (1.64 sq miles). The population density would have been about 609,756/sq mile.

About Kowloon Walled City... Were the ceiling heights in some levels about 5 feet high or less? If you look at the ground level it looks normal height, but the floors above look like you would have to crawl around your apartment.


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## the spliff fairy

This is what remains of the Walled City now, the centuries old buildings and foundations of the original village under the illegal add-ons:


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## the spliff fairy

^ I think that's normal camera distortion, things closer appear larger than normal.


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## the spliff fairy

This is what remains of the Walled City now, the centuries old buildings and foundations of the original village under the illegal add-ons:




























village plan:










rebuilt pavilions:


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## mhays

Even those HK-provided numbers clearly include a lot of wilderness in many of the districts. That's obvious when you see that they call Wan Chai 9 sq km for example.


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## atmada

is it a repost?










Bungin island, Sumbawa Regency, Indonesia
The most densely island in the world
*8 hectare (0.08 km2) 2800 people*


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## chrisnyce

Shera said:


> I guess the government just wants to respect the privacy rights of companies and workers, in refraining from giving out exact population figures for each block. Some blocks are entirely occupied by a single company.
> 
> 
> 
> Lennox Hospital? I'm not exactly sure. Lots of people in a hospital, eh?!? :lol: Hunter college? That's all I can remember on Lexington/Park Ave in upper east side--the richest people live there. Super-expensive hotels there also. That hospital is like the richest hospital in the world, only for millionaires.. LOL
> 
> Hmm, now it doesnt make sense for a hospital to have so much more during daytime, when it's nearly as active during night. Gotta look it up.. yeah, the hospital is a bit further north than that red spike in upper east side. Looks like Hunter college?


It's not Lenox Hill hospital, that's further up. Maybe it's the Guggenheim Museum. It's along 5th Avenue on the E. side of Central Park. But I can't see it being that packed.


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## Shera

chrisnyce said:


> It's not Lenox Hill hospital, that's further up. Maybe it's the Guggenheim Museum. It's along 5th Avenue on the E. side of Central Park. But I can't see it being that packed.


Yeah, I already said, nah, it can't be the millionaire's hospital, but perhaps Hunter college???


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## miami305

Shera said:


> That made you sound uncertain when you said "I think". I took your words at face value, that's it. No need to blow things out of proportion.
> 
> I was just voicing out my guesses too. Then I googled it afterwards and gathered some info. It was just my wild guess.
> 
> 
> 
> Take it easy-- personal attacks are a waste of time.. let's just be cool and friendly here, and once again, I do read your posts. When I said "Really", I meant it as a compliment, in a friendly way, dude.


Don't mind him.....Most British tend to always pick a fight towards Americans (USA). Not sure why they dislike us so much!!?? hno:


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## chrisnyce

the spliff fairy said:


> I heard Gukanjima (Battleship island), also known as Ghost island, off Japan was one of the worlds most densely populated places, during the 1950s? Residentially it reached 360,000 per sq. mile.
> 
> It's now deserted, and forbidden to enter the place due to dangerous buildings, but some photographers have made it:
> 
> Thanks Seyman, here some pix:
> 
> the abandoned islet, once home to 1,391 people per hectare on the built up district, or 139,100 per sq km.
> 
> 
> 1974, the last year before it was abandoned:


thanks for sharing those pics - those were great shots.




> Yeah, I already said, nah, it can't be the millionaire's hospital, but perhaps Hunter college???


Ahhh Hunter College, yes I'd bet on that!


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## Get Smart

India has to be the most densly populated country in the world


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## cardinals1

^^ I think Bangladesh is densest with 1.100/m2 while India's density is 364/m2.


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## Shera

miami305 said:


> Don't mind him.....Most British tend to always pick a fight towards Americans (USA). Not sure why they dislike us so much!!?? hno:


LOL.. :lol: yeah, it's no big deal! Some people just misunderstand each other, some just have a bad day, and some are just emotional a lot, but he's not bad really. He does post some very good stuff.


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## mhays

cardinals1 said:


> ^^ I think Bangladesh is densest with 1.100/m2 while India's density is 364/m2.


Monaco would be what, 20x that density? (Edit, it was 43,000/sm per http://geography.about.com/od/populationgeography/a/popdensity.htm)

When a city is its own country and much of it is highrise residential, it's hard to beat.


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## isaidso

Let's just say that Bangladesh is the densest country that's not a city state. It's almost 3 times denser than the Netherlands.


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## Shera

Here's some more information on Kowloon in this awesome .pdf showcase on Hong Kong, including some education stuff and pictures: 

http://demographia.com/rac-hk.pdf

Another one here with more statistics and pictures (on the density and transportation of HK):

http://www.rentalcartours.net/rac-hkfreeway.pdf

One on the density of Shenzhen:

http://www.rentalcartours.net/rac-shenzhen.pdf


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## particlez

^you do realize, demographia is a libertarian website funded by land developers and the oil companies? 

ANY person visiting hong kong will use public transit. ANY. the fact that these boobs twist facts with their own pre-determined conclusions speaks to their objectivity, or lack thereof. 

the fact that you've written several pages full of these posts (about a place you've never visited) makes your perspective suspect at best.


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## Shera

I would have also liked to see more of Hong Kong than limit myself to public transit (rails and buses). It was clearly stated that not every area was accessible by bus--having your own rental car would save so much time from having to wait for buses and walk from bus stops to explore the entire territory. If you have read the whole paper without being clouded by too much cynicism, perhaps you would have understood that one is able to see a lot more during the limited vacation schedule (3 days or even 7 days is still not enough to see everything by bus). 

Particlez, that's all there is to it. I would have done it the same way as Wendell Cox. I do not either endorse or support Demographia. You do not know where I have visited any more than I know stuff about you.

Let's keep the discussion civil without resorting to personal attacks.


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## Shera

To quote from the .pdf showcase file:



> The urbanized area is estimated to have a population density of 52,500 per square mile (20,700 per square kilometer). Among urbanized areas for which Demographia has data, only Hong Kong, Cairo, Chongquing and Tianjin are more dense. Seoul is slightly more dense than Mumbai, though Mumbai’s core densities are much higher.


source: http://demographia.com/rac-seoul.pdf

Of course, I do not take Demographia's estimates as words written in stone, but it's an interesting read nonetheless about how dense this mega-city Seoul is. 14,600,000 people in contiguous urban Seoul, in an area of only 278 square miles is way more than New York City's official city area of more than 300 square miles.


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## particlez

> I would have also liked to see more of Hong Kong than limit myself to public transit (rails and buses).
> 
> Particlez, that's all there is to it. I would have done it the same way as Wendell Cox. I do not either endorse or support Demographia. You do not know where I have visited any more than I know stuff about you.


dear god wendell cox is a paid spokesperson for the sprawl industry. and, just about every inch of road in hong kong is traversed not only by bus, but also by minibus, some with fixed routes, others with flexible routes. thus the vast majority of the local population does not have access to private car, yet gets along fine. 

there's absolutely no need for a car. 

if you had visited hong kong (as you implied in your PM), you would have known this.


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## Shera

The pictures in the .pdf showcase file of Shenzhen that I linked in 3 posts ago shows how the older residental areas in Shenzen is really dense, similar to Kowloon Walled City. Really neat, I guess.


(to Particlez, you've been added onto my ignore list.. I asked you to try to keep this discussion friendly and civil, and this is the last time I'm replying to you) Yes, I read that there is like a 100% tax on cars in HK, but if I had only 3 days to visit HK, I would hire a taxi to see as much as I can without having to waste my time waiting for buses to explore every inch of roads, including some the islands which apparently do not have buses. This is off-topic anyways.

Back to density!


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## particlez

^if you're going to be efficient enough to take wendell cox's advice and RENT a car in HONG KONG, you'd be searching an awful long time for a rental car, then you'd better be prepared to pay through the nose for parking. then if you wanted to do the offbeat thing and visit these sparsely populated, obscure islands BY CAR, you'd have a hell of a hard time transporting your CAR to these islands. 

you still don't see the point of wendell cox. he's all about the developer's best interests, which includes selling the supposed 'personal' advantages of car dependent sprawl, and denigrating any and all public transit. the fact that an efficient, well-functioning public transit system exists in places that aren't well known to some of his acolytes just gives him another excuse for spreading his propaganda.

go ahead, ignore me. take wendell (shill for the real estate industry and destroyer of all urbanity) cox's advice and rent a damn car in hong kong. let's see how much ground you can cover by car, as opposed to the idiots who take transit.


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## mhays

In much of HK, a car is a liability, not an asset. HK doesn't have room for BICYCLES, let alone cars. If you need a car for something, a taxi is much easier in my (limited) experience. 

And yeah, Wendell Cox is a paid stooge, whose cherry-picked, out-of-context data and opinions are both tainted by his obsessions against transit, density, and good planning.


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## DanielFigFoz

I just read thtough the whole thread, and I must say that it is very interesting. I don't understand why some peole like the walled city.. . it is facinating, but it is horrible aswell.


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## Shera

DanielFigFoz said:


> I just read thtough the whole thread, and I must say that it is very interesting. I don't understand why some peole like the walled city.. . it is *facinating*, but it is horrible aswell.


Fascinating, the key word.. perhaps others think the same as you, in that it's fascinating (while thinking that it'd be a horrible place to actually live in)? Hehe.. :lol:


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## Mr. Uncut

Don´t forget Tondo in Manila! They have also 200.000/km² or something like that....as a whole city i would put Dhaka or HK to the top!


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