# SWITZERLAND | Railways



## Küsel

*Switzerland train system breaks down!*

I just came home by big detours by busses. Since 2.5 hours the WHOLE TRAIN SYSTEM OF THE COUNTRY has been down. They don't know the reason why yet - the energy went out and everyone was locked inside of the trains. I was lucky because my S-Bahn collapsed 100m before a 8km tunnel! Others were not so lucky - and are STILL locked. Worse for the ones on open tracks with 35° outside and 45° inside of the trains (the air conditioning broke down as well and the windows are not possible to open anymore)... it is the biggest catastrophy in the history of Swiss transport system 

I just hear that some few locked trains can be taken out by Diesel locomotives. Just imagine: the Swiss are together with the Japanese thebiggest train-useres in the world and it happened in the rush hour...

here an NZZ article:


> *SBB stellen Zugverkehr in der ganzen Schweiz ein*
> 
> Spannungsabfall legt Züge lahm
> 
> Die SBB haben am Mittwochabend den Zugverkehr in der ganzen Schweiz eingestellt. Wegen eines Spannungsabfalls im Stromnetz stehen seit 18 Uhr im ganzen Land die Züge still. Ursache und Dauer des Spannungsabfalls sind vorderhand noch unbekannt. Die Quelle der Störung wird im Tessin vermutet. Inzwischen sind die Passagiere aus den stehenden Zügen ausgestiegen.
> 
> (ap) Die SBB haben am Mittwochabend den Zugverkehr in der ganzen Schweiz eingestellt. Dies gab SBB-Sprecher Roland Binz im Schweizer Radio DRS bekannt. Grund war ein Spannungsabfall im gesamten SBB-Netz, der offenbar vom Tessin ausgegangen war und sich mitten im Feierabendverkehr aufs ganze Land ausbreitete.
> 
> Kurz vor 18 Uhr hatte es geheissen, die Spannung habe nur noch 12'000 statt 15'000 Volt betragen. Damit blieben zahlreiche Züge liegen oder verkehrten mit massiven Verspätungen. Zudem fielen die Klimaanlagen aus.
> 
> Züge, die unterwegs waren, fuhren - sofern es die noch vorhandene Spannung zuliess - in den jeweils nächsten Bahnhof oder wurden mit Hilfe von Diesellokomotiven evakuiert, wie Binz sagte.
> 
> Ursache und Dauer der Strompanne waren vorerst unbekannt. Die Fachleute der SBB arbeiteten laut Binz mit Hochdruck an der Behebung der Strompanne. Binz bat die Tausenden von blockierten Reisenden um Entschuldigung.
> 
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> Passagiere ausgestiegen
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> Wie SBB-Kommunikationschef Werner Nuber gegenüber Radio DRS sagte, waren bis 19 Uhr alle Passagiere aus den steckengebliebenen Zügen gestiegen. So seien die Reisenden bei der herrschenden Hitze wenigstens an der frischen Luft, sagte Nuber.
> 
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> Pannen schon früher während des Tages
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> Schon zuvor war der Zugverkehr durch eine Entgleisung zweier Güterwagen im Kanton Waadt und Weichenstörungen im Kanton Aargau gestört worden. Die Güterwagen entgleisten am Mittwochmorgen bei einem Rangiermanöver im Bahnhof von Palezieux und kippten auf eines der beiden Hauptgleise der Linie Lausanne - Bern. Verletzt wurde niemand, doch konnten die Züge zwischen Puidoux-Chexbres und Palezieux vorübergehend nur auf einem Gleis verkehren.
> 
> Bei Mägenwil und Mellingen im Aargau beeinträchtigten am frühen Nachmittag zwei Weichenstörungen am frühen Nachmittag den Bahnbetrieb im Raum Aargau-Zürich. Weil während einer knappen Stunde keine Züge durch den Heitersbergtunnel fahren konnten, entstanden auf der Ost-West-Achse laut SBB Verspätungen von bis zu 30 Minuten. Einzelne Züge wurden vorzeitig gewendet oder über Brugg umgeleitet.


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## Bikkel

oioioi, dat zieht ja slecht aus!

Is it the heat? I hope people will now realize how many risks one is taking while leaving all kinds of electronic devices on stand-by status

the air-conditoner is not going to make things cool down; only temporarily - and while your air-conditioner uses up extra energy, the power plants add exhaust to the heat


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## earthJoker

It's only the rail power network that broke down. So this has nothing to do with stand-by electronic devices.


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## Bitxofo

What??
:eek2:

Why??
:?


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## Küsel

They don't know yet but the voltage went suddenly down - first in the Ticino, then on the whole network - what never happened before (only regional).


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## Bikkel

earthJoker said:


> It's only the rail power network that broke down. So this has nothing to do with stand-by electronic devices.


just trying to make people aware of possible consequences

I know this was not the cause but somewhere something went wrong and what made that happen? Could easily be connected. Or does Switzerland have power plants exclusively for its railways?


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## Kampflamm

Wow, lots of sweaty Swiss girls. I hate train services anyway. Every other day there are "Personen auf den Gleisen" somewhere and I have a 20 minute delay.


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## hkskyline

*Swiss railways mull over spectacular nationwide failure *

BERN, June 23 (AFP) - Swiss federal railways were running normally Thursday, hours after Switzerland's entire rail network was brought grinding to a halt by a short-circuit that left some 200,000 rush-hour travellers stranded. 

Power was gradually re-established following the three-hour incident on Wednesday evening, which was caused by a short-circuit on a power line in central Switzerland, the federal railway company (SBB) said. 

The power failure, which stopped all trains in the country apart from those on a handful of smaller privately-run lines in the Alps, was the most serious in the history of the Swiss rail system. 

"Since this morning the trains are running well, virtually normally," spokesman Jean-Philippe Schmidt told AFP. 

"Freight trains are also starting to roll as well," he added. Switzerland is a key freight hub between northern Europe and Italy. 

Some 1,500 trains came to a halt, affecting 200,000 people, the SBB revealed Thursday. Up to 100,000 passengers were stuck in trains throughout the country on a hot summer evening. 

The company was expecting to foot a bill of about 10 million Swiss francs (6.5 million euros, 7.9 million dollars) because of the incident, executives told journalists. 

The only comparable incident occurred in 1997 when trains were stranded for 40 minutes in the west of the Alpine country, affecting 15,000 people. 

An AFP correspondent travelling on the main line to the capital Bern Thursday reported the normal smooth service in a country that prides itself on the efficiency of its public transport system. 

With an average of 2,077 kilometres (1,290 miles) per inhabitant per year, the Swiss are the world's top train users and the network is renowned for its punctuality. 

"We do have a reputation for being punctual and precise, this was definitely an exception, but it confirms the rule," spokesman Jean-Louis Scherz told AFP in Bern. 

"It was an extreme situation and we do not wish to go through it again," he added. 

The problem was first noticed in southern Switzerland just before 6pm (1600 GMT) on Wednesday following a surge and a drop in the 15,000 volt power supply that exceptionally spread to the rest of the system. 

The cause was tracked down to a short circuit on an SBB power line in the Swiss Alps, which was aggravated by the fact that two alternative lines were out of service because of construction work, SBB said in a statement. 

Most travellers were taken home by some 250 specially hired buses or by train services that resumed gradually before the normal overnight closure. 

"We had about 300 people who were put up in hotels or that we sent home by taxi," Schmidt said. 

About 200,000 special 15 Swiss franc (10 euros, 12 dollars) vouchers were handed out to travellers, he added. The company said it would refund alternative travel or accommodation fees. 

The power failure was confined to the Swiss railway network, which is largely fed by the SBB's own hydro-electric power stations. 

Swiss media expressed consternation at the blackout, but it was largely taken with a dose of philosophy. 

A cartoon in the daily Le Temps mocked the incident. "Swiss precision is safe," a ticket inspector commented, adding: "All the trains stopped at the same time."


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## Chavito

Simply incredible

:eek2:


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## Bitxofo

Unbelieveable for Switzerland...
:eek2:


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## rt_0891

:eek2: :eek2: :eek2:


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## Zaqattaq

Kuesel I don't know if you listen to the BBC World Service but there was a great piece today all about Switzerland and the issues it's facing


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## Küsel

I didn't see it, but: you know what - IT HAPPENED AGAIN YESTERDAY!!!

Okay it was not a total blackout but because of a lighning in the Valais all trains between Brig, Geneva and Biel - means the whole Romandie - stood still again!

Now it's clear that the media and politicians are searching on whom to blame and what should be done to avoid a thing like that... the oppinions are far apart from each other. 

And Bikkel: yes, the railnetwork is kind of independant and that is also one of the problems. So there would be two possibilities: to make the so-called "ring" system (at the moment the distribution of energy is kind of centralized from the Gotthard area) or connect the railway energy with the normal electricity network. But in Switzerland everything needs 10 times more time to be developped (too much direct democracy) and thus the problem will not be solved til 2012-2013...


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## Kika

You are right Kuessel! Unfortunately everything takes ages in Switzerland partly due to your direct democracy and very conservative mentality. The power supply used only by the Swiss railroad system looks quite fragile and will take too long to be upgraded as it should have been already a long time ago… This entire situation makes me slightly laugh because I always heard the Swiss (at least many of them) criticising the other countries and treating them like third world countries and now look what happens. Personally, I think that Switzerland needs a good kick in the ass as the country is not what it used to be anymore and the others are catching up fast.


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## Kika

zaqattaq said:


> Kuesel I don't know if you listen to the BBC World Service but there was a great piece today all about Switzerland and the issues it's facing


I am sorry but why would be we listening to BBC World?? There are enough independent medias in Switzerland to read, to watch and to listen and in local languages…


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## earthJoker

It's not direct democracy that is the problem but the "Einspracherecht" (objection law)


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## Küsel

The "Einspracherecht" is a direct democracy means - even if only semi-political related. But it is a possibility for local people to complain against something they don't want according to a masterplan or blueprint - it can be discussed, and it is already - but that's an endless topic 

BTW: Swiss are humble in critizising other countries as part of the developping world, there are worse nations... Also don't forget that we have 1/10th of the pop living abroad  Maybe we think we are supperior in terms like punctuality and cleanness, but we are very aware of the "dark side of our country" :lol:


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## Guest

Glad I didn't have to take the train that day, but what do you expect...it's part of life, at least no one died or something like that.


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## Küsel

That's true - and the atmosphere among the passengers was very good. In the substitute bus from Baden to Zurich everyone made jokes and the bus driver was telling funny stories 

But just imagine what kind of economic damage would have done if it would have happened in the MORNING rush hour!!!


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## Kika

On the news I saw some people insulting each other and fighting for a bus in Geneva according to some witnesses...
I guess they have a different mentality than in Zurich


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## Küsel

I was also there! Took a lot of pics but they turned out to be quite bad except at the beginning of act 2 where I was standing in first row by chance 

Impressive, great actors and superb location. I hope they will make a DVD and cut out all this unnecessary talking they showed on TV. I am also not a big Traviata fan, but that was really unique :applause:

Excerpts:


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## railcity

Here is the 1st Act until the moment when Alfredo leaves the scene with the intercity train.


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## pipouchat

I want to introduce you this small train. The line is 3 km long. Only 3 little bridges. 1 train every hour, 2 in the rush hours. 2 Stations and 2 stops.
ORBE-CHAVORNAY oc (Orbe pop. 4500 - Chavornay pop. 2800) Nespresso has a private station in Orbe.


























































Orbe's station









St-Eloi station









Chavornay's station


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## YelloPerilo

^^

cute!


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## zaphod

That's silly. Why don't they just a bus?

We have one of these in the US, too. the Princeton Branch in New Jersey.


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## pipouchat

zaphod said:


> That's silly. Why don't they just a bus?
> 
> We have one of these in the US, too. the Princeton Branch in New Jersey.


Orbe has many industries. Nespresso products are made here, they use the line to connect in Chavornay with the federal swiss rail company, and the rest of Europa. It was the first electrified line in the country in 1893 I think...it's more ecological than a bus. Maybe a bus will be more efficient, but it's a part of the regional identity...Have you pics from the Princeton Branch? Sorry my englisch isn't fluent, I hope it's clear...


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## tuckerbox

Brilliant-- A beautifull little railway and countryside, as only the swiss can do.
This is what public transport is all about.To compare this with a major city Metro network is wrong. This little line runs on CLEAN energy-- no POLLUTING diesel busses needed here!


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## pipouchat

tuckerbox said:


> Brilliant-- A beautifull little railway and countryside, as only the swiss can do.
> This is what public transport is all about.To compare this with a major city Metro network is wrong. This little line runs on CLEAN energy-- no POLLUTING diesel busses needed here!


Yes you're right, we use hydraulic energy. The river through the village give the electricity for houses too. It's a bit expansive but a good solution.


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## Coccodrillo

zaphod said:


> That's silly. Why don't they just a bus?


Because the line has a lot of goods trains (compared to other branch lines), so the passenger service is created with little extra costs. Even the passenger rolling stock doesn't represent a great cost: there have been only 5 EMU since the opening in the XIX century: number 11, a two axle railcar built about in 1893, 12 and 13 arived in about 1913 (third photo), 14 (first and second photos, in the '80), and 15 (third photo, bought second hand in 2007-2008).

Interestingly the line is electrified with 750 V DC, but all other mainline railways use 15 kV 16,7 Hz AC. So freight often use diesel locomotives, but there are also a few 750 V DC electric locos, but they can't be used on AC or diesel tracks.


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## Spam King

pipouchat said:


> Yes you're right, we use hydraulic energy. The river through the village give the electricity for houses too. It's a bit expansive but a good solution.


i assume you mean hydroelectric


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## Momo1435

Nice, Switzerland has even more of these kind of these lines.

Meiringen-Innertkirchen-Bahn, MIB (4.99 km) 
Bulle – Broc-Fabrique, (5,44 km)

And much more longer lines that on first sight go from nowhere to nowhere, but still are in use and provide a good service to the local communities.


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## pcrail

pipouchat said:


>


Did you recognize those strange looking lower headlights? They serve also as side buffers! 

The Trossinger Railway is an other quit similar short line in Germany. The 1898 commissioned standard gauge line is 5 km long and electrified with 600 V. 
Wikipedia (German)
Official Site


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## pipouchat

*more*










1924 St-Eloi


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## DJZG

wow... cute 
3kms ain't that much... if i was late to train i'll probably went by foot


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## Timon91

Yeah, really cute. I like this kind of railway tracks


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## Tagnuzlsx

I wonder how long the worlds shortest railway is?


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## Coccodrillo

The Mühleggbahn in St Gallen, Switzerland, is only 300 m (0.2 miles) long, but until recently was a real rack railway, with standard tracks and one single vehicle, which was indipendent. Now it's a funicular.

This was apparently the only EMU of the line:










From: http://www.st-georgen.ch/geschichtliches.htm

Wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mühleggbahn

The Rheineck-Walzenhausen line, also near St Gallen, is less than 2 km long, has one single EMU, and only one switch (point) leading to the depot. Originally there were two lines: one funicular (1200 mm gauge) and one standard gauge railway. This railway was only 800 m long, but even if it used 1435 mm gauge, it was not connecetd to the mainline near one of its two stations. It had one electric three-phase EMU (feed via two overhead wires) and a diesel DMU.

The line use the strange 1200 mm gauge, used elsewhere probably on one rack railway in Italy and, as 1220 mm, in the Glasgow Subway.


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## pcrail

*Switzerland: Suburban Service in Steam ?*

Steam technology is not at its end but has a bad reputation of being outdated since most of the development stopped at the end of WWII. Switzerland is known to have banned steam engines on non-touristic railroads since years. Exaclty in this country there will maybe a commuter service with steam engines in future. They will be more attractive for tourists and may have even lower emission values as diesel engines.

Nowadays the electric commuter service on the line S9 of the Basel region is highly deficient. The old Hauenstein summit line is leading thru beautiful landscape and is sometimes used as deviation line in case the new base tunnel is closed due to incidents or maintenance work. See also the map in Wikipedia, the old summit line is between Sissach and Olten shown on the left part of the graphic.

The idea of a local initiative is to introduce a modern steam train with low-floor coaches in push pull technology. The steam locomotive will be in latest technology and can be also operated by the cab car of the train. The service shall attract commuters during morning and evening hours as well as tourist from the Basel area during day time.




























The train shall consist of a Mikado type tank locomotive, one intermediate car and the pilot car. The cars shall have air-conditioned sections with extra large windows and sections were the windows can be pulled down like in traditional railroad coaches. At least 80% of the compartments shall be low-floor. The train shall be equipped with a stat-of-the-art passenger information system.

Technical Data:
Seats: 150 – 180 
Length: 70 m
Wide: 3 m
Power: 2.2 MW
Vmax: 120 km/h

Manufacturer of the steam engine: DLM.

More information can be found on Modern Steam Hauenstein.

The concept is already backed by some studies but this year the steam train attraction shall be tested during fall holydays in Switzerland. There will be two to three steam trains on the line every day from September 26th till October 11th . The train will be operated by 52 8055 and will also have a restaurant car. 

The 52 8055 is a freight locomotive built during war time in Germany and completely remodelled n 2003. The works carried out did not had the aim of a restoration but intended to build a an efficient steam locomotive for service in the tourist train business. Therefore the work included fitting of a light oil firing, roller bearings and improved boiler insulation. The geometry of steam flow was improved to reduce losses due to turbulences. Furthermore the balancing of the masses was adjusted. 









52 8055 with train on the Rümlinger viaduct, one of the landmark points on the Hauenstein summit line.


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## zaphod

You know I always though steam engines were inefficient hence why they became outdated in the 1940's.


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## Alexriga

It is not 1st April, right?


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## Slartibartfas

Unless someone shows me how a steam train can be more efficient than a diesel train, I can only categorize this as "steam enthusiasts dreaming"


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## Momo1435

^^ The best thing about it is that both steam and diesel both are absolutely no competition for the Swiss water powered electric trains when it comes to efficiency.

It's indeed a dream of a steam enthusiast, but I guess they fail to realize that a steam train with modern suburban coaches just hasn't got the same attraction to the tourist as a steam train with old coaches.


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## Coccodrillo

The S9 is not a suburban line. There were and are plans to close the line to regular traffic and to use it only during works on the new line.

This project isn't for a suburban service with steam traction, but it's for steam trains being both a tourist attraction and a local eman of transport.

The line is actually served by 2-car EMUs with a train every hour per direction.


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## pcrail

>> The S9 is not a suburban line. 
Well I do not understand why it should not be a suburban line. In my opinion it is still one serving the region of Basel. 

>> The line is actually served by 2-car EMUs with a train every hour per direction.









SBB NPZ (RBDe 560)


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## thun

^^
For Swiss standards, that's rather a regional line than a suburban one (which typically has more passengers and a higher frequency). The "S" in the line doesn't automatically mean that its a high capacity suburban line.


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## pcrail

^^For Swiss standards I agree, for international standards I disagree.


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## Momo1435

I can't believe there wasn't a thread about Europe's best railway system in the beautiful country that is Switzerland.

Network stats:

Network size: 5,035 km
Standard gauge: 3,652 km
Narrow gauge: 1,383 km
Not Electrified: 41 km

There are many railway companies that operate on the Swiss railway lines.

*SBB-CFF-FFS - Schweizerische Bundesbahnen - Swiss Federal Railways*










The national railway company, the biggest railway company with a network all over the country. 

*BLS Lötschbergbahn*










The biggest 'private' railway company, although the biggest share holders are the government of the canton of Bern and the national Confederation. It owns 170 km of railway lines, the main route is the Lötschbergbahn the Alpine route trough the old and new Lötschbergtunnels. But the operations are limited to regional trains and freight trains, all intercity trains over the BLS network are operated by the SBB.

*RhB Rhätische Bahn*










The biggest narrow gauge railway, it operates a 384 km 1,000 mm gauge network in the canton of Graubünden. It's internationally famous because of the impressive routes with many tunnels ans viaducts trough the Rhaetian alps. The Albula line and the Bernina line have recently been added to the list of UNESCO World Heritage Sites.

There are many more railway companies in Switserland:

English list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Railway_companies_of_Switzerland

Full list:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Bahngesellschaft_(Schweiz)


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## Momo1435

Reload this Page The Gotthard Base Tunnel - World´s Longest Rail Tunnel (57km) thread:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=277570

Some other recent post concerning Swiss Railways:


gramercy said:


> I couldnt find an SBB thread, so here it goes:
> 
> how much do you adore this loco? how much do you love SBB / the swiss for this?
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> just so you know, they are replacing this loco series, which was built in *1932*





pcrail said:


> Not really a fright EMU, but at least fright trains with cab cars are around. Look at this one:
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> This one is carrying beer and mail.
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> This one is carrying building material for the diameter line in Zurich.





New York Morning said:


> Some Swiss train:





Momo1435 said:


> The Swiss railways had some huge locomotive for the mountain routes.
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> Ae 8/14 double locomotives
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> loc: 11801
> build year: 1931
> length: 34,000 mm
> speed: 100 km/h
> power 5,514 kW
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> build year: 1938
> length: 34,010 mm
> speed: 110 km/h
> power 8,162 kW
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> BLS Ae 8/8
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> build year: 1959-1966
> length: 30,230 mm
> speed: 125 km/h
> power 6,475 kW
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> by: peters452002


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## Momo1435

more


Jay said:


> This locomotive isn't really super giant, but it's beautiful, and at 120,000 kg it's pretty big for swiss railways... there is also an 80,000 kg version (which are more common) for passenger trains.





Momo1435 said:


> I don't care if it's pointless.
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> Especially the 1st picture (Ge 4/4 I), that's one of the best looking loco in the world.
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> Oh and eh... coaches with domed roofs rule OK!





Momo1435 said:


> More Swiss trains
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## Momo1435

*Strategic wins help in difficult times*

05 August 2009 

STADLER: Two strategically important rolling stock contracts were won during 2008, when Swiss-based Stadler Rail Group recorded consolidated turnover of SFr1·07bn. Though turnover was down from SFr1·24bn the previous year, the ‘development of the order book was particularly pleasing’ last year, with its highest-ever total order value of SFr2·6bn ensuring a ‘solid basic utilisation of capacity’ through 2010.

Winning the SFr1·02bn contract to supply Swiss Federal Railways with 50 six-car EMUs for Zürich S-Bahn services was ‘strategically decisive’, with Stadler’s first double-deck trains to be used as the basis for its bid to supply inter-city double deck EMUs to SBB (RG 9.08 p543). Stadler entered the long-distance EMU market with an August 2008 order worth SFr640m to supply Norway’s NSB with 50 Flirts suitable for 200 km/h (RG 9.08 p551).

Formerly a niche manufacturer, Stadler is now expanding its production facilities to handle such large orders. ‘We believe in our competitiveness, which is why we are prepared to invest more than SFr90m, even in these difficult economic times’, said Peter Spuhler, Chief Executive and majority shareholder of Stadler Rail Group. ‘However, these investments will only pay back if we continue with our good performance and keep on winning further orders in the medium term’.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...wins-help-in-difficult-times/archive/SBB.html


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## Momo1435

*Shunting locomotive upgrade underway*
06 August 2009 

SWITZERLAND: SBB's Biel workshop rolled out the first of 23 SBB Cargo Tm IV light shunting locomotives which are being rebuilt as type Tm 232 on August 4.

A prototype rebuild was completed in 2007 before the start of the modernization program, which aims to extend the life of the diesel locomotives by a further 20 years.

Work on the initial 23 locomotives will be finished by mid-2010, and rebuilding of the rest of the 70-strong fleet could follow.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ing-locomotive-upgrade-underway/browse/5.html


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## Momo1435

SBB Locomotives

*Re 4/4 II (Re 420)*

2nd series:









Flickr by chrchr_75

1st series (in Swiss-Express look):









Flickr by lastarial 

Universal locomotive, used on types of trains: local, IC/IR & freight.

Build date: 1964, 1967-1985
Production: 276
Max Speed: 140 km/h
Power: 4700 kW

SBB Cargo Re 421, adapted for use in Germany.









Flickr by chrchr_75

*SBB Re 4/4 III*









Flickr by danielstieger

Cargo version of the Re 4/4 II with lower max speed but higher traction.

Build date: 1971
Production: 21
Max Speed: 125 km/h
Power: 4700 kW


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## Momo1435

*Re 450*









Flickr by lastarial 

Locomotives for the fixed double deck sets for the S-bahn (suburban network) around Zürich.

Build date: 1989–1997
Production: 115
Max Speed: 130 km/h
Power: 3200 kW

Driving trailer:









Flickr: by H a n s


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## Momo1435

*Re 460*









Flickr by lastarial 

Lok 2000, the new generation of Swiss locomotives. Built as an universal locomotive for fast intercity trains and heavy freight trains. But now they only run fast passenger trains, usually in push-pull operation with EW IV single deck or IC2000 double-deck cars.

Build date: 1991–1996
Production: 119
Max Speed: 230 km/h
Power: 6,100 kW

Many of these locomotives got full body advertising schemes.









Flickr by lastarial 

*Einheitswagen IV (EW IV)*

Build date: 1981–1992
max speed: 200 km/h









Photo by Massimo Rinaldi on railfaneurope.net

*Control car type IC:*

Build date:1996–2004
max speed: 200 km/h









Flickr by lastarial 

*IC2000 double-deck train*

Build date:from 1997
max speed: 200 km/h









Flickr by chrchr_75

Double-deck restaurant car.









Flickr by lastarial


----------



## Momo1435

*Re 6/6 (Re 620)*

prototype (with double body):










main series: 










SBB Cargo Re 620










Last generation of the big Gotthard mountain railroad locomotives. It has 6 axles in a Bo Bo Bo configuration. 

Build date: 1972, 1975–1980
Production: 89
Max Speed: 140 km/h
Power: 7,800 kW

The locomotive often is coupled with a Re 4/4 II as a Re 10/10 combination on a heavy freight trains on the Gotthard line.









all pictures: Flickr by chrchr_75


----------



## Momo1435

*Ae 6/6 (Ae 610)*










SBB Cargo Ae 610









all pictures: Flickr by chrchr_75 

The predecessor of the Re 6/6 for the heavy freight trains on the Gotthard. But because of their co co axle configuration they were not really suited for the bendy mountain line. After the Re 6/6 took over they have been used for freight trains in the rest of Switzerland. Although they are already more then 50 years old they should stay in service until the opening of the Gotthard Base tunnel in 2016. But Recently many of them have been stored because of falling traffic due to the economic crisis.

Build date: 1952, 1955–1966
Production: 120
Max Speed: 125 km/h
Power: 4300 kW


----------



## Momo1435

*SBB Cargo Re 482 *









Flickr, by TrickyMartin2006

Bombardier Traxx locomotive for freight trains into Germany and Austria.

Build date: 2001-2006
Production: 50
Max Speed: 140 km/h
Power: 5.600 kW

*SBB Cargo Re 484 (E 484 SR)*









Flickr, by gewoonsanderrr 

Bombardier Traxx 2 MS locomotives for freight trains into Italy.

Build date: 2004-2006
Production: 21
Max Speed: 140 km/h
Power: 5.600 kW

Some of these locomotives have been hired to Cisalpino to run replacement services between Switzerland because of problems with the old and the late deliverance of the new Pendolino trains.









by lastarial

*SBB Cargo Re 474 (E 474 SR)*










Siemens ES64F4 locomotives, they were also ordered to be used on freight trains into Italy, even before the Re 484 order. But because of problems with the approval in Italy they came later then the 484 and only 12 of the original 18 ordered have been delivered. 

Build date: from 2005
Production: 12
Max Speed: 140 km/h
Power: 6.400 kW


----------



## Ale Sasso

Interesting pics and informations.
Funnily, I was in Swizerland till yesterday for a short holiday and I sow several of these trains


----------



## Momo1435

SBB Diesel locomotives.

Even though the Swiss railways are almost completely electrified the SBB still uses some diesel locomotives for shunting and light freight trains.

*Am 841*









Flickr by lastarial 

Built by: GEC/Alsthom 
Build date: 1996-1997
Production: 40
Max Speed: 100 km/h
Power: 920 kW

*Am 842*

Am 842.0








Photo by: Eddy Konijnendijk @ railfaneurope.net

Am 842.1








Photo by: Reinhard Reiss, www.reissweb.net

The first series of this loco is a type MaK 1205 built for track builder SERSA, but they have been bought by the SBB for track maintenance work. The 2nd series was build by Vossloh, the new owner of MaK. SBB Cargo got a couple of these loco's via leasing companies to be used on freight services on German lines from the borderstation Schaffhausen. Later new locomotives were leased for used in Italy.

Built by: MaK & Vossloh 
Build date: 1994 & 2007
Max Speed: 80 & 100 km/h
Power: 1120 & 1100 kW

*Am 843*

Cargo look









Flickr by lastarial 

Infra look









Flickr by chrchr_75

The first big order for mainline diesel locomotives by SBB, they are used for light freight trains but also for shunting. SBB chose for diesel locomotives to be used freight trains that had to use small diesel shunting locos at industrial lines. The infrastructure division uses the locomotives for maintenance trains and Fire and Rescue trains. The passenger division also uses the loco on heavy shunting duties in Basel and Chiasso stations. 

Built by: Vossloh
Build date: 2003-2007
Production: 73
Max Speed: 100 km/h
Power: 1500 kW


SBB Italy Am 840

















Flickr, by Effimera59 - Donadelli Daniele 

The SBB leases these locos for use freight trains in Italy. They are the Vossloh G 2000 BB type, that people either love or hate when it comes to the design.

Built by: Vossloh
Build date: 2003
Production: 6
Max Speed: 120 km/h
Power: 2240 kW


----------



## Momo1435

SBB EMUs

*RABDe 500 ICN*









Flickr by lastarial

Switzerland own pendolino train using a combination of Swiss and Italian design and technique. They are used on Intercity and Interregio trains on the main East - West axises and since recently also on the Gotthard line.

Built by: Adtranz/FIAT-Sig & Bombardier/Alstom (= the same companies after take overs)
Build date: 1999–2005
Production: 44
Max Speed: 200 km/h
Number of cars: 7
Capacity: 477 seats

*RABe 520 GTW*









Flickr by lastarial

These trains were built for the Seetalbahn in the hart of Switzerland between Lenzburg and Luzern. Since part of that line is built directly next to the road without any barriers the trains that are used are smaller or have extensive warning stripes on the front. They are also used on some other regional lines in the same region. 

Built by: Stadler Rail
Build date: 2002
Production: 17
Max Speed: 115 km/h
Number of cars: 3
Capacity: 139 seats

*RABe 521, 522, 523 & 524 Flirt*









Flickr by lastarial

Tilo RABe 524









Photo by: Reinhard Reiss, www.reissweb.net

The SBB put out an order for new regional EMUs that was won by Stadler Rail. It wasn't 1 set order but a split up one depending on what services the trains would be used. The first 10 trains were for the S-bahn around the city of Zug. The second batch was for the international S-Bahn around Basel, these sets can also run in Germany and some of them were also to be used in France. But they never got approval to be used in France, so the SBB decided to put out a new order of Flirts that are slightly different and should get approval to be used in France. The joined operation of regional trains in the border area of Switzerland and Italy under the name Tilo also uses SBB Flirts. 

Built by: Stadler Rail
Build date: from 2004
Production: 92+
Max Speed: 160 km/h
Number of cars: 4
Capacity: 158/161 seats


----------



## X38

Wow Momo, that's an impressive list!


----------



## Momo1435

And there are many more.

Continuing with the EMUs and motor cars.

*SBB RBe 540*









Wikipedia, by MPW57









Flickr by steven46502

In the 1950s the SBB started to replace the pre-war electrical locomotives and EMUs. The RBe 4/4 motorcars where one of the types of trains that where ordered from the Swiss railway industry. It was intended to be used on local trains but also fast trains between the big cities. Therefor it was very powerful of 1988 kW to be able to pull or push longer trains. Now it's only used for local regional trains and also on the S-Bahn Zürich. 

Built by: SIG/BBC/MFO
Build date: 1959, 1963–1966
Production: 82
Max Speed: 125 km/h
Capacity: 60 seats (originally 64)

It's been used together with the cars of the Einheitswagen I & II types.

*Einheitswagen I*

BDt driving trailer








by Massimo Rinaldi on railfaneurope.net

B in original colors 









by Colin Baker on railfaneurope.net

The Einheitswagen I (standard car I) replaced the last old heavy steel and light wooden cars from before the WOII in order to standardize the wagon park of the SBB. They where build in a huge number over 10 years time and are still in service. They have been used on almost every sort of train, from fast trains to S-Bahn trains. 

Build date: 1956-1967
Production: 1249
Max Speed: 140 km/h

*Einheitswagen II*









by tobias b köhler on railfaneurope.net

In IR look









by Daniel Stieger on railfaneurope.net









by Massimo Rinaldi on railfaneurope.net

Follow up from the EW I in the 1960s, with only small changes they almost look identical. The smaller windows on the end of the cars is the most obvious difference.

Build date: 1965-1976
Production: 798
Max Speed: 140 km/h


----------



## Momo1435

*RBDe 560 NPZ*



















Driving trailer










The NPZ "Neue Pendel Zug" (New Shuttle Train) is product of a collaboration of many Swiss railway companies to build a standard train for local services. It has a motor car and a driving trailer, intermediate cars can be added if it's needed. Unlike some of the private railways the SBB didn't order new intermediate cars for these trains but used the old but renovated EW I & II cars. 

Built by: Schindler Waggon Altenrhein, BBC Baden / ABB Zürich, SIG Neuhausen
Build date: 1984, 1987–1990
Production: 86
Max Speed: 140 km/h
Capacity: 60 seats (originally 64)

Recently they are going through a modernization program, that gives them a major overhaul. The now even older EW I & II cars will be replaced with new low floor cars from Bombardier for better access for wheelchairs. (Swiss station don't have high platforms). Again no fixed EMUs will be made, so the length of the train is still 

*NPZ Domino*









Flickr by phildefer64 









wikipedia


----------



## Momo1435

*RABe 514 DTZ*










The newest double deck trains for the S-Bahn Zürich. These are the first double deck EMUs for the SBB, before these trains they only had the push-pull sets with a locomotive. They were ordered to replace the aging RABDe 12/12 and RBe 540 trains. 

Built by: Siemens, with help from Stadler
Build date: 2005 - 2009
Production: 61
Max Speed: 140 km/h
Number of cars: 4
Capacity: 378 seats


*RABDe 12/12*









Flickr by Lazytom










Originaly ordered for the Goldcoast line along the shore of Lake Zürich. Later they became part of the fleet of the S-Bahn Zürich until the end of last year when they where withdrawn from active service and were put in reserve. 

Built by: Schindler Waggon Pratteln, FFA, BBC, SAAS
Build date: 1965–1967
Production: 20
Max Speed: 125 km/h
Number of cars: 3
Capacity: 128 seats

*Stadler DOSTO*



















The next generation of EMUs for the S-Bahn Zürich will be the new Stadler Dosto EMU that are based on the Stadler Flirt trains that already run in Switzerland. They will replace the old single deck trains on the S-Bahn and also enable the SBB to increase the frequency on some of the lines. 

Built by: Stadler Rail
Build date: 2011
Production: 50
Max Speed: 160 km/h
Number of cars: 6
Capacity: 526 seats

These EMUs were ordered together with new double deck cars for the Re 450 Dosto sets (as seen in post #7) with a low floor entrance. All S-bahn trains will easily accessible for wheel-chair users when these are all in service. Each existing set will get one new car replacing one old 2nd class car. With the cars that become available new sets will be formed, probably with Re 420 locomotives for extra peak-hour services.


----------



## steple

AB (Appenzeller Bahnen):


----------



## steple

CJ (Chemins de fer du Jura):


----------



## steple

MOB (Montreux-Berner Oberland-Bahn/Chemin de fer Montreux-Oberland bernois):


----------



## viscAbarcelona

^^ there are many SBB trains serving S-bahn of zürich, what about Geneva and Lausanne? don't they have such services?


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## Coccodrillo

*Geneva* has only two suburban lines with a train every 30 minutes stopping at all stations, plus some direct extra service at peaks. But a cross-city tunnel is under construction, service will increase to 2-4 trains per hour on some lines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEVA_rail

*Lausanne* has some regional trains with quite distant stops served only every hour (except two lines, every 30 minutes). There are plans to increase frequency to up to a train every 15 minutes on one line.

*Zug* has a single short line with 4 trains per hour.

*Berne* has three metre gauge lines served every 7 to 15 minutes. Standard gauge lines have less trains because of capacity limits.

*Basel* has 4 lines served every 30 minutes, a cross-city tunnel is planned.

*Ticino/Tessin* canton has a quite well developed network despite its small size with three lines with 4 and sometimes 5 trains per hour each (sometime somnibus, sometimes direct) connecting four cities (3x50.000 inhabitants and 1x100.000) separated by a mountain and a lake.

All these services are operated with Stadler Flirt, Bombardier Nina or equivalent stock (single deck, 75 to 150 m in length), except in Zürich where most trains are double deckers and Bern where double deckers will be used soon.

Also in other cities regional trains are often designed with a number for each line, but they aren't really suburban trains.


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## viscAbarcelona

^^ thanks for the answer. Why is there such difference in the development level of the railway suburban network between Genève and Zürich? Is the canton of Zürich more pro-active in this sense? or is it caused by organizational problems with the government of france? Because Zürich metropolitan area has more population but the difference is not that large as to explain why that city has 26 different lines while Geneva only has 2


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## FazilLanka

I love taking trains in Switzerland,clean and on time.


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## Coccodrillo

Geneva is smaller and has less railway than Zürich.

There are now only three lines. Two meets in Cornavin station, but have different voltage (15 kV AC to Lausanne, 1500 V DC to La Plaine-Bellegarde) and some bottlenecks.

The first part of *La Plaine line* is single track for 3 km, because even if there are two more tracks in this part they are electrified at 15 kV so french trains can't use them. There is a plan to convert the La Plaine line to 25 kV AC, buy multisystem EMU and make one of the two tracks commutable. I haven't a drawing, but there will then be three tracks: one 25 kV, one that can switch between 15 and 25 kV, and one 15 kV. This will increase capacity as the centre track will be used also by La Plaine trains.

The *line to Lausanne* had only two tracks until 2004. A third track was then added so suburban service increased from 1 to 2 trains per hour, then 4 tph in the future.

The *Eaux Vives-Annemasse-Evian/St Gervais/Annecy* lines and branches are all single tracks, and aren't connected to the other two liens reaching Cornavin. Also the line to Annecy is very curved and slow, and buses are faster than trains. There is a project (today known as CEVA) to link this group of lines with Cornavin since 1912 but construction isn't yet really started.

There are also two tangential lines, *Bellegarde-Annemasse* (one train every two hours) and *Bellegarde-Nyon* bypassing Geneva (today only freight traffic and partly closed).

Here a map of the network in 2020:

http://etat.geneve.ch/dt/mobilite/a...ut_future_offre_ferroviaire_region-10089.html

http://etat.geneve.ch/dt/Silverpeas...=application/pdf&Directory=Attachment/Images/

Today, the lines operating are:
1 between lausanne and Genève Cornavin (1 tph)
2 between Coppet and Lancy Pont Rouge (2 tph)
6 between Cornavin and La Plaine (2 tph) and Bellegarde (9 trains per day)
Some trains between Eaux Vives, Annemasse and beyond
Some trains Cornavin-Bellegarde-Lyon
InterCity trains from the rest of Switzerland, Cornavin and the Airport
(numbers are not used today and may change in the future)


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## Momo1435

Nice to see some life in my old thread! 


Some news, the president of the SBB wants a new a new High Speedl line from Zürich to Bern (in German):
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wirtsch...-300-kmh-von-Zuerich-nach-Bern/story/31821595


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## garegnanoman

Last weekend:
100 years for the Bernina line, the most spectacular and famous narrow-gauge line of the Alps
100 Jahre Berninalinie die Rhätische Bahn
100 anni per la linea del Bernina, la più bella della Ferrovia Retica
http://www.rhb.ch/Programm-Tirano.1303.0.html


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## earthJoker

viscAbarcelona said:


> Is the canton of Zürich more pro-active in this sense?


The canton of Zürich is indeed the driving force behind the S-Bahn. It is also the main funder of the S-Bahn.


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## Gag Halfrunt

I once saw a photo taken inside an old BLS carriage in North Korea, with BLS signs still visible (etched on glass partitions or something, I can't remember).


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## nachalnik

Gag Halfrunt said:


> I once saw a photo taken inside an old BLS carriage in North Korea, with BLS signs still visible (etched on glass partitions or something, I can't remember).



The pics are here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/genki_cochan/sets/72157600314232037/


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## earthJoker

> Bombardier Wins SF1.9 Billion Train Order, Outbidding Siemens
> May 12 (Bloomberg) -- SBB, Switzerland’s federal railways company, chose an offer from Bombardier Inc. for a 1.9 billion Swiss franc ($1.71 billion) train order.
> 
> Bombardier’s offer for 59 trains was chosen over a competing one by Siemens AG, and the investment value includes some work carried out by SBB, the railways said at a press conference in Bern today.


http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...9-billion-train-order-outbidding-siemens.html

Renders:


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## gramercy

what are the parameters of that train?


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## earthJoker

Well it will run at 200km/h and has about the same seats per coach as the IC2000. It will run on higher speeds in turns.
I don't have the excact data but more renders:


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## gramercy

thx, looks real nice

so this will be a tilting train?
15kv only?


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## Gag Halfrunt

nachalnik said:


> The pics are here:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/genki_cochan/sets/72157600314232037/


Thanks.


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## steple

ARB (Arth-Rigi-Bahn, blue) + VRB (Vitznau-Rigi-Bahn, red) = RB (Rigi Bahnen)


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## thun

gramercy said:


> thx, looks real nice
> 
> so this will be a tilting train?
> 15kv only?


Well, they're not going to change the whole electric system for some new train, would they?


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## viscAbarcelona

Coccodrillo said:


> http://etat.geneve.ch/dt/mobilite/a...ut_future_offre_ferroviaire_region-10089.html
> 
> http://etat.geneve.ch/dt/Silverpeas...=application/pdf&Directory=Attachment/Images/


Thanks again for your great answer 

BTW, do you know how are they planning to run the trains that get into France? I mean, will they be jointly operated by CFF and SNCF (or any other entity) and share the proceeds? and would it be legal for a ticket collector to fine a french citizen once the train has left Swiss territory? :nuts:


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## Gag Halfrunt

nachalnik said:


> The pics are here:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/genki_cochan/sets/72157600314232037/


Thanks.


----------



## gramercy

thun said:


> Well, they're not going to change the whole electric system for some new train, would they?


no, but they could try to run them in italy or france?!


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## Coccodrillo

viscAbarcelona said:


> Thanks again for your great answer
> 
> BTW, do you know how are they planning to run the trains that get into France? I mean, will they be jointly operated by CFF and SNCF (or any other entity) and share the proceeds? and would it be legal for a ticket collector to fine a french citizen once the train has left Swiss territory? :nuts:


There will probably be a common entreprise ("Transferis"?) between SNCF and SBB.



gramercy said:


> no, but they could try to run them in italy or france?!


In Italy probably no because swiss loading gauge is a little bigger (italian double decker trains are lower than swiss ones).


----------



## Momo1435

gramercy said:


> so this will be a tilting train?


Not in the traditional way the current tilting trains work.

These trains will only have a 1° tilt in comparison to the 8° of normal tilting trains. And it does that with new innovative bogies that allow the train to tilt without having to have an active space consuming tilting system in the train body above the bogies. You might think that 1° tilt is not that much but it results in a 8,5% time reduction on the Bern Lausanne route compared to a conventional train. A tilting train can make a 13% time reduction, but without the 60% higher passenger capacity of the new double stock trains. 

Other features of the bogies are that the axles turn inside the bogies to adapt the radius of the curves on the line. Reducing energy use, noise polution & maintenance costs.

As for international use of these trains, only Germany and Austria are in the picture but I believe only as an option to make that possible in a later stage.


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## gramercy

thx

so why did siemens and stadler lose?
i think they build better trains than bombardier...


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> There will probably be a common entreprise ("Transferis"?) between SNCF and SBB.


Or SBB just grabs the TER concession for part or the whole Rhone-Alps region once that comes up for tender...


----------



## K_

Momo1435 said:


> These trains will only have a 1° tilt in comparison to the 8° of normal tilting trains. And it does that with new innovative bogies that allow the train to tilt without having to have an active space consuming tilting system in the train body above the bogies. You might think that 1° tilt is not that much but it results in a 8,5% time reduction on the Bern Lausanne route compared to a conventional train. A tilting train can make a 13% time reduction, but without the 60% higher passenger capacity of the new double stock trains.


It's actually "tilt compensation" what the trains get. Normally when a train goes through a curve it tilts outwards somewhat. With a doubledeck train there exists the risk that this gets the train out of profile. To avoid that curve speed is limited.
The tilt compensators that will be installed are intented to keep the train perfectly upright (relative to the track) in curves at higher curve speeds.



> As for international use of these trains, only Germany and Austria are in the picture but I believe only as an option to make that possible in a later stage.


Routes where they could be used are Zürich - Stuttgart and Zürich - München (once that is electrified). 
SBB has an option for a further 100 of these sets.


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## Coccodrillo

For Zürich - Stuttgart and Zürich - München more tilting trains will be ordered soon, probably a variant of the ETR 610.


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> For Zürich - Stuttgart and Zürich - München more tilting trains will be ordered soon, probably a variant of the ETR 610.


They've just stopped using tilting trains on Zürich - Stuttgart. And why would SBB order some more ETR610 based trains after the bad experience they have with the current batch...


----------



## viscAbarcelona

> Comment Bombardier a séduit les CFF
> 
> «Bombardier a clairement remporté cette offre. Leur dossier était meilleur. Leur projet a été novateur et supérieur sur de nombreux critères à ceux des autres entreprises. Le confort, le rapport qualité-prix et les coûts de fonctionnement durant tout le cycle de vie du train, et la ponctualité de la livraison comptent parmi les facteurs décisifs», relève Vincent Ducrot, chef ad interim de la section CFF voyageurs
> 
> «Des portes supplémentaires ont été prévues en queue et en tête des trains. L’entrée et la sortie des passagers se font ainsi de manière plus fluide.
> 
> De plus, la forme et la position des escaliers ont été optimisées, ce qui permet de gagner de la place. Grâce à cela, les trains que Bombardier fabriquera pourront accueillir 1300 passagers (ndlr: 1100 voyageurs dans les Intercity actuellement), soit davantage que les projets concurrents. Par ailleurs, le groupe canadien a pu complètement séparer la première et la deuxième classe, contrairement à l’une des deux autres offres», confie Vincent Ducrot.
> 
> La livraison des rames sera étalée sur plusieurs années. Les premiers trains produits par Bombardier devraient rouler dès 2015 sur les axes Saint-Gall-Zurich-Berne-Genève. La seconde et la troisième livraison auront lieu en 2017 et 2019. Bombardier développera une nouvelle technologie qui permettra d’augmenter de 10 à 15 km/heure la vitesse des trains à deux étages dans les virages. «Ainsi, nous pourrons relier Lausanne à Berne en moins d’une heure. En raison des tests et des travaux d’infrastructure que nous devons réaliser, ces trajets seront possibles dès 2020»,
> 
> Le Temps


Basically, the Bombardier train is much better in everything; the article adds that the number of jobs created in the country or whether it was a foreign company or not, were factors not considered at all for the decision, as the WTO forbids from doing so. If only all countries were such a good model to follow!


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## K_

viscAbarcelona said:


> Basically, the Bombardier train is much better in everything; the article adds that the number of jobs created in the country or whether it was a foreign company or not, were factors not considered at all for the decision, as the WTO forbids from doing so. If only all countries were such a good model to follow!


What the other countries do is not really that important. Switzerland is an open economy. Stadler Rail, a major Swiss constructor of rolling stock, and one of the other bidders, sells 3/4 of its trains abroad (even to the US). They would never have gotten so big if it wasn't for the free market...
When as a country you export you also have to import. It's good for Switzerland that the best offer won. 
Other countries might not be so enlightened, but in the end it's their own economy they're damaging.


----------



## Coccodrillo

K_ said:


> They've just stopped using tilting trains on Zürich - Stuttgart. And why would SBB order some more ETR610 based trains after the bad experience they have with the current batch...


The info seems quite sure. I don't have other details thought.


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## Coccodrillo

Some statistics, only in German and French, but easy to understand.

German:
http://www.litra.ch/Der_offentliche_Verkehr_in_Zahlen.html
http://www.litra.ch/Die_Schweizer_sind_weiterhin_Europa-_und_Weltmeister_im_Bahnfahren.html

French:
http://www.litra.ch/Les_transports_publics_en_chiffres.html
http://www.litra.ch/Les_Suisses_a_n..._monde_en_matiere_d_utilisation_du_train.html


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## Coccodrillo

Transport of two cars of the Davos-Parsenn funicular up to 2700 m above sea level: http://la1.rsi.ch/home/networks/la1...04bf882&date=05.09.2010&stream=low#tabEdition

The vehicle run 3.3 km/h uphill and 0.5 km/h downhill, the cars were too heavy (17 tonnes) to be transported with an helicopter.


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## Bart_LCY

One of the world's most picturesque rail lines in the world, the *Bernina Railway*. Listed on UNESCO World Heritage Sites, now comes to you with this spectacular driver's view video!

The whole journey comes in 11 parts, here are the links to first and last:


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## Coccodrillo

The ETR 610 can finally run faster on the Gotthard railway: until now they were able to run and to tilt there, but only at normal speed, so the tilting mechanism was not fully disfruted. However, this will not change a lot to passengers: Cisalpino trains (now rebranded as EuroCity) were, are and will ever be late, the average being 6 trains with a delay of 15-20 minutes out of 16 daily runs.


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## Bart_LCY

^^ I find it strange for country like Switzerland that those trains ( EC née Cisalpino ) are almost always late. Each time I look into SBB web timetable - there will be some kind of information regarding punctuality of those trains. If you could give me some background why is that? Who's fault is that? Bad planning, people, technical stuff? Is there anything that can be done about it?


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## Coccodrillo

The main problem is the Milan-Zürich line. The timetable is too tight, and in Milan (or Zürich) it only has 20 minutes before having to go back to the other city. Italians are usually slow to reverse the direction of travel of a train (even if they are EMU as in this case), so if a train arrives in Milan 15 minutes late, it doesn't leave before 10-15 minutes instead of 5, getting stuck behind other suburban or good trains, arriving in Zürich around 20 minutes late, and so on until the evening.

In 2009 there was a clear example: the same train left Milan at 9.10 (as CIS 14), went to Zürich (arrival 12.51), went back to Milan as CIS 19 (departure 13.09), and finally turned back again to Zürich as CIS 22. The latter used to arrive nearly everyday 30 to 40 minutes late in Zürich.

Another problem is that the ETR 470 are extremely unreliable, the record being 6 trains broken down out of 9 at the end of 2009, now (March 2011) there are some broken train waiting repair and others undergoing heaving overhauls. I don't know how many are the trains in working order, but considering that to mantain the current schedule 4 trains are needed each day and that 4 out of 14 daily trips are made with replacement vehicles, I suppose there are no more than 4 ETR 470 in working order.

So the cause of the delays is a mix of the two: even if the ETR 470 were more reliable, some delays would still occur. In theory, if a train arrives late in Milan/Zürich (like the CIS 14 in the example above, Zürich arrival 12.51) there should be a train in reserve ready to replace the delayed one (in this case, for the 13.09 departure). In practice, however, this replacement train is most of the times unavailable (because being used elsewhere) or broken down...


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## Bart_LCY

Thank you for that explanaiton. Seems kinda like paradox of plenty. Maybe adjusting the schedule would help a bit? And what about ETR 610? Do they serve that particular route? I've heard and read about ETR 470 how unreliable they are, you just confirmed it... They should admit that this project as a whole is a failure and should start from the beginning, with new schedule, new ( and more ) trains, etc. Opening Gotthard Base Tunnel should ease the situation, though.


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## Coccodrillo

Modifying the timetable by a few minutes would mean changing all suburban trains from Bellinzona to Milano and branch lines, which would be a great work, already done in Decemebr 2008 (when all these lines received a new timetable). Yet, in a few years when the Gotthard Base Tunnel (and then the Ceneri) will open the timetable of Milan region will, probably, change again. So I think they don't want to plan a completely new timetable, it would take time and last for a few years. I suppose (I hope) they want to keep the existing timetable while planning a realistic timetable for 2016-2019.

The ETR 610 today are used only on a single Basel-Lucerne-Milan-Venice round trip (trains EC 153 and EC 158), they use the same cadenced path like the others but don't tilt. They have a separate shift, so as the 610 don't run on Milan-Zürich trains where the 470 are used, and viceversa.

I see an interim measure for that: adding exactly 30 minutes to existing journey times. From Milan there is a time slot every 30 minutes (departure at .10 and .40, arrival .20 and .50) which is not in conflict with other trains. Doing this would help the stability of the timetable and reducing delays (for all trains: for each delayed EC-CIS, there is at least a delayed suburban train), but would mean declaring that the existing timetable is a failure, and Swiss (mainly) are too proud to say such things (using the 470 as scapegoat is easier).

Until the opening of the new Gotthard tunnel and the deliver of new trains (which are planned, but not ordered yet), I think nothing will happen and that this line will continue to have the record of being the most unreliable of Europe.


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## thun

I took those ECs a few times over the last months and never had any problems. :dunno: Always on the Lötschberg line, though.


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Until the opening of the new Gotthard tunnel and the deliver of new trains (which are planned, but not ordered yet), I think nothing will happen and that this line will continue to have the record of being the most unreliable of Europe.


I'd say that among Western European international train services of some scale and size the Benelux trains face a worse situation than the ex-Cisalpino services between IT and CH.

They often cancel trains and delays are common. The situation bears some similarities like heavily used railway and unreliable stock. However, here they adopt a different solution: they refuse to let Benelux trains disrupt national services and delay them again and again until there is a path free. Last months it have become rather common for Benelux trains to be shortened at Rotterdam.

In any case, the railways north of Milano are problematic, they have decent amount of freight traffic (blame the Swiss for that), so up to a certain point the Swiss are to blame that they force freight onto rails by refusing to allow more traffic on their tunnels, and such measures leave the Italians constrained in their ability to deal with minor disruptions.


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## Suissetralia

Suburbanist said:


> In any case, the railways north of Milano are problematic, they have decent amount of freight traffic (blame the Swiss for that), so up to a certain point the Swiss are to blame that they force freight onto rails by refusing to allow more traffic on their tunnels, and such measures leave the Italians constrained in their ability to deal with minor disruptions.


 so the Swiss are to blame for promoting the more efficient rail transport to move goods with their origins in Germany and destination Italy? Given that those interested in the goods are the italians themselves, don't you think they are the ones to blame for not adapting capacity to demand? :lol:


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## Suburbanist

Suissetralia said:


> so the Swiss are to blame for promoting the more efficient rail transport to move goods with their origins in Germany and destination Italy? Given that those interested in the goods are the italians themselves, don't you think they are the ones to blame for not adapting capacity to demand? :lol:


Sure, I agree with you, but the Swiss pushed legislation to restrict truck traffic over the Alps and held the rest of EU hostage. They should have given Italy and Germany like 40 years, not 4, to adapt.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> In any case, the railways north of Milano are problematic, they have decent amount of freight traffic (blame the Swiss for that), so up to a certain point the Swiss are to blame that they force freight onto rails by refusing to allow more traffic on their tunnels, and such measures leave the Italians constrained in their ability to deal with minor disruptions.


This is basically not true. The main line Como - Milano has a regional train per hour, and a long distance train every two hours with a few extra trains during peak hours. Plenty of capacity there.
The Gotthard route has two long distance trains (sometimes even more) and two regional trains per hour along part of its length, and more freight than Como - Milano. And trains run mostly on time on that route... 
(Not all Gotthard freigths enter Italy via Chiasso...)


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Sure, I agree with you, but the Swiss pushed legislation to restrict truck traffic over the Alps and held the rest of EU hostage. They should have given Italy and Germany like 40 years, not 4, to adapt.


Restrictions on truck traffic across the alps through Switzerland are now actually less than they were in the past. Get your facts straight please.


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## thun

Well, I'm afraid Italy wouldn't manage to adapt its infrastructure even within 40 years. They often need a good kick in the ass here.


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## Coccodrillo

thun said:


> I took those ECs a few times over the last months and never had any problems. :dunno: Always on the Lötschberg line, though.


The Simplon-Lötschberg line uses (on both branches, Basel and Geneva) the ETR 610, which are more reliable than the ETR 470, and more realistic timetables.



Suburbanist said:


> However, here they adopt a different solution: they refuse to let Benelux trains disrupt national services and delay them again and again until there is a path free. Last months it have become rather common for Benelux trains to be shortened at Rotterdam.


Cisalpino/ETR trains are part of both national networks, and actually around half of the traffic (sometimes more, sometiems less, depending on the trains) is domestic.



Suburbanist said:


> Sure, I agree with you, but the Swiss pushed legislation to restrict truck traffic over the Alps and held the rest of EU hostage. They should have given Italy and Germany like 40 years, not 4, to adapt.


There is no more restriction to truck transit traffic, waiting time and tolls on tunnels are comparable than the Italy-France tunnels (and even less, regarding tolls, 200 € Basel-Chiasso, 270 € the Fréjus tunnel alone, without A43+A32). The famous 650.000 truck limit is still only a dream.



K_ said:


> This is basically not true. The main line Como - Milano has a regional train per hour, and a long distance train every two hours with a few extra trains during peak hours. Plenty of capacity there.


There is a regional train (S11) Chiasso-Como-Seregno every 60 minutes (every 30 at peaks, that is around 6-9 and 16-19), from there every 15 minutes (S9+S11, 15-15-30 pattern off peak).


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> There is a regional train (S11) Chiasso-Como-Seregno every 60 minutes (every 30 at peaks, that is around 6-9 and 16-19), from there every 15 minutes (S9+S11, 15-15-30 pattern off peak).


What route do most freight trains take? Do they go via Seregno - Monza, or do some of them use Lentate - Seveso?


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## Coccodrillo

Of those crossing the Alps, I would say 30% Luino-Gallarate/Novara/somewhere south and east, 50% Chiasso-Milano-somewhere south and west, 20% elsewhere (swiss internal traffic, transhipment on road before the border, Chiasso-Como-Lecco railway, industries between the border and Milano. Camnago Lentate-Seveso-Milano line is only used by passengers.

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/milano-area/milano-area.gif


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> The main problem is the Milan-Zürich line. The timetable is too tight, and in Milan (or Zürich) it only has 20 minutes before having to go back to the other city. Italians are usually slow to reverse the direction of travel of a train (even if they are EMU as in this case), so if a train arrives in Milan 15 minutes late, it doesn't leave before 10-15 minutes instead of 5, getting stuck behind other suburban or good trains, arriving in Zürich around 20 minutes late, and so on until the evening.


SBB has even a spare set evailable in case the incoming train is really late. However Trenitalia, even though it has more spare sets does not use them, and prefers them to sit in the yard where they are vandalised.


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/milano-area/milano-area.gif


Thatm ap I know. Do you know of a better map? One that also shows siding, yards, how the junctions are laid out?


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## makita09

Suburbanist said:


> Sure, I agree with you, but the Swiss pushed legislation to restrict truck traffic over the Alps and held the rest of EU hostage. They should have given Italy and Germany like 40 years, not 4, to adapt.


Err no, the EU and the Swiss held the truck drivers hostage. The EU weren't passive partners in the entire thing you know. As K said, get your facts straight.


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## Coccodrillo

K_ said:


> SBB has even a spare set evailable in case the incoming train is really late. However Trenitalia, even though it has more spare sets does not use them, and prefers them to sit in the yard where they are vandalised.


As since weeks two round trips (trains 15-18-22-23) are made using traditional coaches or with transhipment in Chiasso, and not with the ETR 470, I would say that at least 5 of them are broken down or waiting for repair.



K_ said:


> Thatm ap I know. Do you know of a better map? One that also shows siding, yards, how the junctions are laid out?


No I don't, beside these books: http://www.schweers-wall.de/


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> No I don't, beside these books: http://www.schweers-wall.de/


I have their Swiss and German atlasses. Thanks for pointing out that they now also offer Italy (and Austria).


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> As I said, it was an april's joke. I partly belived it, because it's not completely false: SBB is really planning to sell or to scrap the ETR 470, but it is not known when it will do it (in around 7 years at the latest, but probably before). And the most likely buyer would be Trenitalia as it already owns similar vehicles, while SBB, DB, ÖBB (the other network who may be interested to 3-15 kV EMU) do not.
> 
> It was also said some months ago that Alstom may give some newly built ETR 610 for free to SBB and Trenitalia as penalty for the late delivery of the first 14 trains (they were planned to be all delivered by December 2007, but will not until the end of this year).


SBB is in the market for a few more trainsets for international traffic. Soon they'll be forced to run to Italy in open access anyway.


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## Coccodrillo

I don't know if SBB could run elsewhere in openaccess as the inverse (foreign openaccess passenger operators in Switzerland) is not possible (thankfully).

And, if possible, this would be problematic (Trenitalia would not then sell SBB tickets). Colalboration with Trenitalia is still the best solution, after all.


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## Momo1435

The DB & ÖBB already operate the EuroCity from München - Brenner - Italy together with the FNM instead of the Trenitalia. If the SBB also finds an other partner in Italy or create their own Italian company they could also running in Italy as open access. The problem is that it will likely also effect other co-operations between the SBB and Trenitalia like the TILO. 

But it will probably happen at some point in time since the relations between the 2 railways aren't getting any better. Now Trenitalia wants to pull out their ETR 610 sets from the former Cisalpino services to use them on internal services. That would only mean that they will still need the ETR 470 sets for a longer period. In other words, the SBB has to order more new trains if they want to improve the service.

The SBB has been looking into buying new tilting trains for quite some time now. Apart from the Italy services they would also be used on the new electrified services to München and also to be used internally to expand the ICN services. But it hasn't turned into a solid order yet, mostly because of the demands from the SBB. They wanted a 300 km/h fast train with a full tilting system. The railway industry has answered to the SBB that this is simply impossible. The bogies and trunks for a 300km/h train have to be very stiff, for a tilting train they have to be flexible. The problems with the ETR 610 have already highlighted this with a maximum speed of just 250 km/h. 

This doesn't mean that there won't be a new order, but it will take another 4-5 years for the new trains to go in service if not later. Until then I don't expect that the SBB will go on and use the open access to go into Italy on their own. And maybe by then everything has already cleared up again so there won't be any need for this to happen.


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## Coccodrillo

In my opinion the ETR 470 will be retired in December 2011 and replaced by conventional trains which will use a modified temporary timetable (the existing one cannot be respected without tilting trains...and even with them it is quite rare trains arrive on time).

SBB needs Trenitalia mainly because of TILO (and viceversa Italy needs cooperation for its Varese-Como internal services which will pass throught Switzerland - just like the Salzburg-Innsbruck austrian intercitys pass throught Germany).


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## Momo1435

The question is if the SBB has enough conventional cars to replace even more ETR 470 services with loco hauled trains. They can use the cars on the Vienna services that are replaced by Railjet sets, but they might need look towards Austria to hire some Austrian Eurofima cars for some extra capacity.

And with the whole open access happening right now in Europe we will see more competition between different railway companies. And that leads to some strange situations where railway companies compete with each other in some areas while cooperating in others.


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## Coccodrillo

They will have to find them.

Starting from tomorrow, all the 16 daily Milan-Lugano-Gotthard-Zurich/Basel trains (except one) will be preceded by one IC train from Lugano onwards. The SBB are running some of these extra trains since the timetable structure change in December 2008 for capacity reasons (the ETR 470 are sometimes too small) and to avoid delays to more heavily used trains.


This is extremely costly, as some of these EC trains during off-peak hours aren't full, and would not need an extra IC, but this will have to run because of the frequent delays. Delays and extra trains aren't affordable on the long term, so I think there will be a new timetable in December with conventional trains instead of the ETR.


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## Dase

K_ said:


> There is an hourly Swiss flight from Basel to Zürich, leaves at 40 minutes past each hour from ZDH... But that is a codeshare. I leave it to you to guess with whom...


There is still one daily flight to ZRH with an ARJ, leaving BSL in the morning and returning close to midnight.


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> I don't know if SBB could run elsewhere in openaccess as the inverse (foreign openaccess passenger operators in Switzerland) is not possible (thankfully).


Open access will come, and I doubt it will be bad for SBB. 



> And, if possible, this would be problematic (Trenitalia would not then sell SBB tickets). Colalboration with Trenitalia is still the best solution, after all.


The problem is that Trenitalia is not very cooperative. See what happened in with Austria - Italy trains. ÖBB now even runs busses to Italy...


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## Coccodrillo

K_ said:


> Open access will come, and I doubt it will be bad for SBB.


It will be bad, it will. There is too much demand on too much relations involving changing trains to make it possible.

Competition "for the market" would be little more acceptable, but I still don't see the point.


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## thun

K_ said:


> The problem is that Trenitalia is not very cooperative. See what happened in with Austria - Italy trains. ÖBB now even runs busses to Italy...


Even worse: ÖBB/DB have to run busses between Padova, Vicenza and Verona to connect those cities with their Venice-Munich ECs because they aren't allowed to stop the train running through the first two cities there in order to protect Trenitalias business. :wallbash:

It's not even possible to buy tickets for trains operated by other Italian companies on routes where there are no Trenitalia trains at a Trenitalia counter. :nuts: When I went from Verona to Malles, I had to run to the ticket machine in Meran to buy a ticket there within the two minutes scheduled for changing trains. At least the Trenitalia website (which against all odds knows those connections as well) calculates that under normal circumstances, you wouldn't succeed to do so and calculates with one hour waiting time in Meran in the first place... :cheers:


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## Coccodrillo

Coccodrillo said:


> It will be bad, it will. There is too much demand on too much relations involving changing trains to make it possible.


In relation to that, the federal government plan new infrastructures together with their timetable, so as to maximize capacity but minimizing the cost.


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> It will be bad, it will. There is too much demand on too much relations involving changing trains to make it possible.


I don't understand this. If there is "to much demand" how could other companies entering the market (and we're only talking international trains here) be bad?



> Competition "for the market" would be little more acceptable, but I still don't see the point.


the point is that you're not limited to whatever the incumbent is willing to offer. We're so used to the high level of service offered by SBB that we don't realize how it is elsewhere. But people in Switzerland also don't realize there might be a market for a cheaper, lower standard service. I often have a hard time explaining tourists that Geneve - Zürich is always 82,- CHF. 
"What do you mean, you can't save money by taking slower trains or a bus?"


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## Suburbanist

If SBB wants to operate more trains in Italy, it should allow Italian companies to operate more trains in Switzerland. Reciprocity FTW.

You can't have actual competition for international services if you only have trains that are operated by each national railway involved. That is how international train service was done in Europe until the first join-ventures like Thalys, Artesia, CityNightLine etc. were established, and it was an horrible service in general.

What appears to me is that SBB is very keen on avoiding as much international traffic as possible because it is a "hassle" to their "perfect" timetables. Then Italy have different, odd requirements like 2-person crews and an unhelpful operation management.


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## Coccodrillo

K_ said:


> I don't understand this. If there is "to much demand" how could other companies entering the market (and we're only talking international trains here) be bad?


On some lines all available capacity is already used, and adding more trains would be impossible without new infrastructures unless...cancelling alredy existing and overcrowded trains. I doubt passengers would like that.

On a few lines there may be some free space for international trains...like Zürich-Milan, or Lausanne-Paris, but certainly not on Lausanne-Genève or Bern-Zürich on peak hours.



K_ said:


> I often have a hard time explaining tourists that Geneve - Zürich is always 82,- CHF. "What do you mean, you can't save money by taking slower trains or a bus?"


I agree on that, it's a problem, SBB should make some offers on off peak trains, mainly for tourists (as for the same trip a local would pay 41 CHF, or 58/68 CHF for a return trip depending on the hour, nearly one third of a full fare return ticket).

I also think that it should be studied the possibility to allow intercity domestic buses, so as to relieve trains.



Suburbanist said:


> If SBB wants to operate more trains in Italy, it should allow Italian companies to operate more trains in Switzerland. Reciprocity FTW.


First of all, Italy is doing everything is possible to sabotage competitors (Arenaways, DB-öBB, NTV, freight operators, ...).

Secondly, I would not like to see SBB operating trains in Italy, except for Chiasso/Domodossola-Milano. But also in this case I would prefer to see cooperation with Trenitalia.


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> First of all, Italy is doing everything is possible to sabotage competitors (Arenaways, DB-öBB, NTV, freight operators, ...).
> 
> Secondly, I would not like to see SBB operating trains in Italy, except for Chiasso/Domodossola-Milano. But also in this case I would prefer to see cooperation with Trenitalia.


They couldn't even agree on how Cisalpino should be managed, to the point they broke up the joint-venture (your avatar is rather funny btw). I agree Trenitalia has some problems with accepting competition and part of its management is trying to undermine European agreements with red tape.

However, in some cases Trenitalia acts in its rights, like the routing and dispatching of TILO trains. The Swiss also don't agree with the way Trenitalia would have freight trains dispatched northward. They make many freight trains wait instead of granting them paths to preserve, again, the "perfect" timetable that cannot be disrupted by freight trains, at the same time they don't build dedicated HS railways for passengers only. 

Swiss coming freight trains have a much easier time using Italian network than the opposite.


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## Coccodrillo

> They couldn't even agree on how Cisalpino should be managed, to the point they broke up the joint-venture.


Cisalpino worked very bad, but without it there will be less coordination, so I don't know if its dissolution was a good idea.



> However, in some cases Trenitalia acts in its rights, like the routing and dispatching of TILO trains.


What do you mean? TILO service is agreed with Regione Lombardia (like every regional service), and beside three return trips to Gallarate and Milano the only TILO services in Italy are the ones to Albate Camerlata (8 km and two stops in Italy).



> The Swiss also don't agree with the way Trenitalia would have freight trains dispatched northward. They make many freight trains wait instead of granting them paths to preserve, again, the "perfect" timetable that cannot be disrupted by freight trains...


Thankfully. But I think passenger trains (IC/EC/CIS) should if needed be slowed down a little to increase freight capacity which seems more important to me.



> ...at the same time they don't build dedicated HS railways for passengers only.


Because nobody is willing to pay for 150 km of tunnels to be used only by one or two intercity per hour. An high speed line there would simply be too expensive at dozens of billions (either CHF or EUR that doesn't matter).



> Swiss coming freight trains have a much easier time using Italian network than the opposite.


SBB plans to offer at least 6 slots per hour per direction for freight trains in 2020 (to Luino and Chiasso, plus 3 slots to Domodossola), while there are doubts Italy will be capable of handling them because of capacity problems, lack of terminals and small loading gauge south of Bologna.


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## chornedsnorkack

Coccodrillo said:


> Thankfully. But I think passenger trains (IC/EC/CIS) should if needed be slowed down a little to increase freight capacity which seems more important to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Because nobody is willing to pay for 150 km of tunnels to be used only by one or two intercity per hour. An high speed line there would simply be too expensive at dozens of billions (either CHF or EUR that doesn't matter).


Is freight valuable enough to pay for brand new lines and long tunnels for exclusive use of freight (or for passenger trains only under schedules fitted to freight)?


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## Coccodrillo

That's the point, neither freight nor passengers alone would be sufficient to make these tunnels worth the cost. It's a combination of both, plus political reasons (there are two new parallel north-south railways under construction so as to make happy more people, the new Gotthard rail tunnel would have never been accepted without the new Lötschebrg, and viceversa).

In any case public infrastructures (even motorways) don't have to be economically profitable, and the three plus one AlpTransit tunnels are not expected to pay for themselves quickly. But the already opened base tunnels (Lötschberg and Zimmerberg) already carry much traffic. Many other rail projects in Europe are supported, even if with lower predicted traffic than these four Swiss tunnels, only by politics (Lyon-Turin/Fréjus Base Tunnel, many Spanish HSL).


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> However, in some cases Trenitalia acts in its rights, like the routing and dispatching of TILO trains.


The problem with Tilo is not routing or dispatching. It's getting permission to run Flirts in Italy...



> The Swiss also don't agree with the way Trenitalia would have freight trains dispatched northward. They make many freight trains wait instead of granting them paths to preserve, again, the "perfect" timetable that cannot be disrupted by freight trains, at the same time they don't build dedicated HS railways for passengers only.
> 
> Swiss coming freight trains have a much easier time using Italian network than the opposite.


All what you write above is false. 
- Switzerland does build dedicated passenger lines, and does try to separate passenger and freight as much as possible. The Gotthard route is one of a few where a major freight route coincides with a major passenger route. And that is because of geography.
- All a train has to do in order to proceed up the Gotthard without delay is turn up in Chiasso on time. That this is a serious challenge for the Italians is not the fault of the Swiss.


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## Coccodrillo

Downhill only: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv2TLH1bQiY

(apparently it was built a century ago to check the line)


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## k.k.jetcar

Double decker passenger rolling stock is a good solution in services that warrant them, which are quite many given their versatility. However, they are *not* the best in all cases, and most importantly, their presence is not an indication of superior technology/operating philosophy vs. single level stock. Double deck trains provide high capacity on a operating diagram with lower frequencies and longer spacing between stations- they are not appropriate for high frequency/frequent stop services, which require high acceleration and short station dwell times. Nor are they good on highly curved lines with high speeds (due to their high CofG). Otherwise, they are a good answer to most operating needs. As far as HSR service, they are fine for your lower frequency services, but in general the higher performance of single level stock is a better solution. Also, most passengers prefer to sit on the upper level- rather than run partially filled double deck trains, it would better to run single level trains, which are easier to maintain and clean.


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## earthJoker

Actually many prefer to sit on the lower deck. Usually once you know your journey by heart you are not that interested to see the surroundings any more. 
The accelerations of the Zürich S-Bahn is not less than any other S-Bahn I know. The older generation made the mistake to have two equally designed decks, while the new ones don't have the same philosophy. The lower deck is used for fast in/out and short travel mostly, with more space to stand, while the upper deck is fully seated. This approach not only gives you an extra amount of capacity it also offers a good solution to separate longer distance travellers from short distance travellers. 

This is not about suburban transportation anyway so lets focus on intercity use: The double-deckers are in no way slower then the single deck units. (The IC2000 runs at the same speed as conventional single deck units) The only thing that is not possible are real tilting trains. But tilting trains have several drawbacks (no access for handicapped people) and are very unpopular because of their lack of comfort (some people get sick).

The only reason not to use double deck units is if you don't need the capacity.


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## railzilla

Platform height is Switzerland is only 55cm. This is too low to make a non step entrance and a walk trough train with no steps or ramps. There are no single deck intercity trains in Switzerland which have a step less entry. And the last intercity single deck trains the ICN Tilting trains have very narrow and high entrances. The time they gain with the tilting technology is lost at stations. Just watch an ICN at the airport station it has the longest boarding time of all trains. And its not very suitable for passengers with heavy luggage or baby prams. If i would need a wheelchair i just would avid those trains and take the trains with double deckers. AFAIK only TALGO trains can have a low platform height and a flat walk trough train floor as they have no axles. 
The platform height in Switzerland is very favorable for double deckers as the platform height matches the floor of the lower deck. In countries with high platform maybe single deckers would be the better solution.

The single decker commuter trains with stepless entry Stadler GTW, Stadler FLIRT and Domino also don't have a flat interior. Its also quite narrow if you want to move with a wheelchair. So even on single deck trains the possibility to move freely with wheelchair is only theoretical.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> If so, Italy and Spain must be among the most backward countries in terms of rail transport.


No, they aren't as both use double deck trains extensively.
France, not exactly a backwater, even has lots of bi level TGVs. In fact, SNCF isn't buying anything else at the moemnt.



> As that article states, using double deckers means there is less space for tilting mechanisms up to the usual 8-11 degrees. Double deckers also have a problem with luggage space and accommodation of handicapped passengers.


Double deckers have their disadvantages, true. As always in engineering everything is a compromise. However, not being able to tilt 8-11 degrees is not only a disadvantage... The tilting trains currently running in Switzerland are about the least popular amongst the travellers.
But double deckers trains are actually have the advantage where it comes to accomodating handicapped passengers.


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## Coccodrillo

Momo1435 (referring to Suburbanist) said:


> ^^ I don't know what kind of train you have ever been on.


None


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## K_

k.k.jetcar said:


> Double decker passenger rolling stock is a good solution in services that warrant them, which are quite many given their versatility. However, they are *not* the best in all cases, and most importantly, their presence is not an indication of superior technology/operating philosophy vs. single level stock. Double deck trains provide high capacity on a operating diagram with lower frequencies and longer spacing between stations- they are not appropriate for high frequency/frequent stop services, which require high acceleration and short station dwell times.


Double deckers are used extensively on local and suburban services all around europe. Acceleration is only a function of tractive effort versus weight, and there is no reason why a double decker should be slower than a single decker. Als boarding/unboarding needn't be slow. A whole rake of IC2000 stock can be emptied in about a minute... The Suburban trains around Zürich are almost exclusively double deck. And that on lines where 15 minute service intervals are becoming the norm.



> Nor are they good on highly curved lines with high speeds (due to their high CofG).


That is what SBB and Bombardier are now addressing with their WAKO trials. 



> Otherwise, they are a good answer to most operating needs. As far as HSR service, they are fine for your lower frequency services, but in general the higher performance of single level stock is a better solution.


Actually SNCF has an epxanding fleet of double deck TGVs, and uses them predominantly on the Paris - Lyon route. AFAIK SNCF is currently only buying double deck TGVs...



> Also, most passengers prefer to sit on the upper level- rather than run partially filled double deck trains, it would better to run single level trains, which are easier to maintain and clean.


Well, the view from the upper level of a doubled deck train is better than from a single deck train. But given the choice, passengers will prefer to sit on the lower level, rather than stand. So the lower deck seats do get used. 
Anyway, an SBB IC2000 coach has about as many seats on the upper level as an EWIV single level coach.


----------



## Nexis

By 2020 , most American and Canadian systems will have a Bi-level or Double Decker Majority in the Commuter Rail rolling stock. The Exception is Metro North and LIRR , due to low tunnels and Grand Central. There more efficient and ease congestion , so i don't understand why anyone would be against them. As for Wheelchairs being able to move around in the cars , thats dangerous....the jerky and tilting on trains can lead to the person falling over , so having them stay in one area is the best thing usually near the doors.


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## hans280

K_ said:


> Double deckers are used extensively on local and suburban services all around europe.


True, but at least in the Paris area the railway companies are beginning to have some second thoughts. The RER lines will remain double deckers, but with the new generation of suburban trains they are moving back from double deckers to one-level trains. One explanation that was given (La Vie du Rail) was that when trains have to stop very frequently double deckers have inefficiently long station stops because it takes extra time to move people up and down the stairs. Their solution is to buy a new generation of wide-bodied and open-space trains from Bombardier that that can take almost as many passengers as a double decker - and for the rest increase the frequency of the trains. (Or so they say. I'll believe it when I see it...)

Of course the TGVs on the main line Paris-Marseille don't have this problem. They stop maximally 2-3 times underway (and some are non-stop), so the issue of load-times is hardly central.


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## earthJoker

hans280 said:


> Their solution is to buy a new generation of wide-bodied and open-space trains from Bombardier that that can take almost as many passengers as a double decker - and for the rest increase the frequency of the trains. (Or so they say. I'll believe it when I see it...)


I suppose there is a higher ratio of standing people within such trains.


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## hans280

earthJoker said:


> I suppose there is a higher ratio of standing people within such trains.


Almost certainly. But that's not as pernicious as it may sound: the new Bombardier trains have some real room for standing - and very wide doors for easy entry and exit as well. This is unlike the existing double deckers (the Z series) where, during the rush hour, people stand like herrings in a barrel on the platforms next to the doors.


----------



## K_

hans280 said:


> True, but at least in the Paris area the railway companies are beginning to have some second thoughts. The RER lines will remain double deckers, but with the new generation of suburban trains they are moving back from double deckers to one-level trains. One explanation that was given (La Vie du Rail) was that when trains have to stop very frequently double deckers have inefficiently long station stops because it takes extra time to move people up and down the stairs.


That is true, although the particular configuration matters too. 



> Their solution is to buy a new generation of wide-bodied and open-space trains from Bombardier that that can take almost as many passengers as a double decker - and for the rest increase the frequency of the trains. (Or so they say. I'll believe it when I see it...)


That works in France, but not in the Netherlands for example. There have been tests with 3+2 seating, and it turns out that most people there prefer to stand rather than use the middle seat in a row of three. 3+2 seating works in France, where people are smaller, but I doubt it would be popular in northern european countries. 

anyway, one of the reasons why SBB likes double deck trains is that they still have many single track lines, which makes running extras with a usefull schedule often not practical. So they need to provide maximum capacity on the regular trains. Even then they still manage to run 6tph in each direction on some mostly single track lines.



> Of course the TGVs on the main line Paris-Marseille don't have this problem. They stop maximally 2-3 times underway (and some are non-stop), so the issue of load-times is hardly central.


Loading of TGVs is anyway rather slow because everyone loses time looking for his/her assigned seat...


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## earthJoker

hans280 said:


> Almost certainly. But that's not as pernicious as it may sound: the new Bombardier trains have some real room for standing - and very wide doors for easy entry and exit as well. This is unlike the existing double deckers (the Z series) where, during the rush hour, people stand like herrings in a barrel on the platforms next to the doors.


Removing seats for more standing space is not really liked over here. Anyway the solution for the new Siemens S-Bahn are about the same, just for the lower floor. Wide doors, lots of space. And if you need to go further than one or two stations you can find more seats upstairs.


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## railzilla

^^ 
S-Bahn Zürich is considering using single deck trains with more doors and more standees. The capacities can not be increased with double deckers as passenger dwell times are too long. So either they are building more tunnels or use single decker trains to increase capacity.


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## earthJoker

It is considered, but only for a so called "inner" S-Bahn network. But they already meet massive opposition on having more standees and less seats. Standees are seen by many as an emergency solution.

So it's either standees or double deckers. And so far I still favour double deckers.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Modern tilting trains have delayed (by a fraction of second) activating mechanisms that avoid the "thrill ride" effect while tilting.

In any case, better than tilting trains is a new, more straight rail line.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> In any case, better than tilting trains is a new, more straight rail line.


Indeed. However, in the real world you can't have everything.


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## K_

railzilla said:


> ^^
> S-Bahn Zürich is considering using single deck trains with more doors and more standees.


Haven't heard about that. For the moment they are buying double deck trains as fast as the manufacturers can build them... The last single deck trains on the S-Bahn will disappear soon.
For the S-Bahn Bern double deck trains have been ordered too.


> The capacities can not be increased with double deckers as passenger dwell times are too long.


Dwell times are not that much of a problem. The main east-west S-Bahn tunnel in Zürich has two tracks, opening up to four in the station. That means that they can (and do) run trains every two minutes, with usually a 2 minute stop at Hbf. At all other stations the dwell time is that standard 50 seconds SBB uses for regional trains. 
I ride these trains every day, and passenger boarding/alighting does proceed quickly. The trains have pretty fast doors, that usually open simultaneously with the train coming to a stop.


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## railzilla

^^

The dwell times gives the capacity at Stadelhofen, which is the bottleneck and almost at maximum capacity now. Thats why they thinking about to use single deck trains with more doors, less seats and more standees. If the doubledeckers get more crowded they take even a longer dwell time thus reducing line capacity. And 50 Second is also too long for an S-Bahn. They want to cut it to 20-30 seconds. And even more to increase line capacity the complex interline of different lines will not possible anymore. So that means less lines but with higher frequency. I agree that dwell times are reasonable on most station, but the weakest Link is what needs to be considered. 
Another problem is that its politically not possible to charge a extra fee for the rush hour. So they do it the other way round. Prices will be the same all the time but they will give up the goal to provide a seat for everybody. Thus you will have to stand during rush hour. On off peak hours there still will be enough seats.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Reducing the expectation of having a seat can have dire consequences in long-term user perception of a transit system. And it all goes downward once standing is considered "normal", it is something that opens a can of worms like "why not remove 20% more seats to increase capacity by another 35% instead of buying expensive new trains"?


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Reducing the expectation of having a seat can have dire consequences in long-term user perception of a transit system. And it all goes downward once standing is considered "normal", it is something that opens a can of worms like "why not remove 20% more seats to increase capacity by another 35% instead of buying expensive new trains"?


The Zürich S-Bahn network also serves as mass transit in the inner city area. Quite a few people only travel one or two stops, and don't even bother looking for a seat. For a 2 minute trip (like I do every day) that is not really an issue.

Therefore a layout that offers roomy platforms and wide doors on the lower level, and lots of seats on the upper is a good one for such services.


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## K_

railzilla said:


> The dwell times gives the capacity at Stadelhofen, which is the bottleneck and almost at maximum capacity now. Thats why they thinking about to use single deck trains with more doors, less seats and more standees.


Currently the only trains on order for the S-Bahn Zürich are double deckers. 


> If the doubledeckers get more crowded they take even a longer dwell time thus reducing line capacity. And 50 Second is also too long for an S-Bahn. They want to cut it to 20-30 seconds. And even more to increase line capacity the complex interline of different lines will not possible anymore. So that means less lines but with higher frequency.


Railway planning in Switzerland uses quite long planning horizons. How the S-Bahn Zürich will look in 2020 is pretty much already known. And none of what you describe above is in the plan. 
Do you have a source for what you are describing? I'm quite intrigued, as I haven't read anything about those ideas, and I do follow the Swiss Rail Industry quite closely.


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## earthJoker

Here is the proposal he speaks about:
http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/zueri...ussere_und_eine_innere_s-bahn_1.10180861.html

It is more a vision for 2030 and it is (as I read it) not a replacement of the current double decker but additional S-Bahn services that only serve the innermost stations of the city.

But this is city transportation so a different usecase!


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## Suburbanist

They should segregate more the intercity services from mere urban rail then. That can be achieved via mere fare system tweaking in which it becomes expensive to use intercity rail for short hops within the city only.


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## K_

earthJoker said:


> Here is the proposal he speaks about:
> http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/zueri...ussere_und_eine_innere_s-bahn_1.10180861.html


It looks more like a kind of a brainstorm to me 

But there are other plans, like the Stadbahn Limmattal, that will take some of the load of the S-Bahn. I think that as a long term strategy improving interurban tramlines have a better chance.


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## earthJoker

K_ said:


> It looks more like a kind of a brainstorm to me


Yeah, it's something like 2030 onward. In this time dimensions we can also think about building an U-Bahn.


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## Momo1435

Suburbanist said:


> They should segregate more the intercity services from mere urban rail then. That can be achieved via mere fare system tweaking in which it becomes expensive to use intercity rail for short hops within the city only.


You do realize that the S-Bahn is the urban rail system in the Greater Zürich area. And it wouldn't make a very big difference since only a few IC and IR trains have more then 1 stop within Zürich (if you don't count the airport).


Anyway, since the current 4th stage of expansion of the S-Bahn will only be completely finished in 2018 we might not see any big decisions on big infrastructural projects in the next few years. First it has to be seen what kind of effect the new tunnel and the new trains will have on the system.


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## Attus

K_ said:


> For the S-Bahn Bern double deck trains have been ordered too.


Bern? AFAIK Bern has much less passangers than Zürich. I suppose you're talking about BLS lines, and BLS mostly uses short trains (e.g. NINA), the only really long one is 535 but even this one has only 4 parts. Why need they double deckers?
In Zürich (central network) in rush hours 300m long, 12-part double deckers are in use, no doubt they're needed and a replacement by single deckers would drive to a disaster for sure.


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## Attus

Suburbanist said:


> They should segregate more the intercity services from mere urban rail then. That can be achieved via mere fare system tweaking in which it becomes expensive to use intercity rail for short hops within the city only.


The whole discuss is about S-Bahn trains, nothing else. I suppose you know very well what S-Bahn means  And in Zürich really many passangers use it for daily commuting inside the city for 3-10 minute rides since Zürich has no more urban railways than S-Bahn (no subway here).


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## Coccodrillo

They will be used on S1 which uses three NINA on each train (each with 3 or 4 cars). Later they will be used on S3 and S6.


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## thun

Also Stadler trains?


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## Attus

Coccodrillo said:


> They will be used on S1 which uses three NINA on each train (each with 3 or 4 cars). Later they will be used on S3 and S6.


I see, thanks.


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## K_

thun said:


> Also Stadler trains?


Yes. 4 car version, similar as the sets SBB ordered for RE services (4 car sets) , and the Zürich S-Bahn (6 car).

http://www.bls.ch/data/medien/MM-Dosto-praesentation.pdf


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## K_

Attus said:


> Bern? AFAIK Bern has much less passangers than Zürich. I suppose you're talking about BLS lines, and BLS mostly uses short trains (e.g. NINA), the only really long one is 535 but even this one has only 4 parts. Why need they double deckers?


Two reasons:
- S1 now uses trains of four coupled Ninas during rush hour, and people are still standing. Not all stations on that line have platforms long enough that they can lengthen trains further, and running more services is also problematic (the Bern - Thun line carries a lot of freight to). So they use doubledeckers.
Other lines where they want to use them are the S6 to Schwarzenburg, which will enable the BLS to avoid having to lengthen the platforms on that line. S3 is also a candidate, as there running more trains isn't really an option either. SBB is going to use the same type of trains for RE services on Bern - Biel ( northwestern part of S3) so passengers on that route will have the same comfort regardless of which service they use.


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## K_

earthJoker said:


> Yeah, it's something like 2030 onward. In this time dimensions we can also think about building an U-Bahn.


Whatever they come up with, they will have to sell it to the voters. Maybe some form of Metro has a chance now, given the success of the Lausanne Metro.


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## flierfy

earthJoker said:


> Double deckers are state-of-the-art. Countries that are still running single deckers always appear to be a little backward to me.


Bollocks. Double-deckers are nowhere near state of the art. This technology is rather old. In fact, double-deckers are a second class solution for capacity strained systems.

The technologically most advanced trains, however, are entirely single-deckers. Alstoms AGV, the Velaro of Siemens as well as the latest Shinkansen trainsets.



railzilla said:


> The single decker commuter trains with stepless entry Stadler GTW, Stadler FLIRT and Domino also don't have a flat interior. Its also quite narrow if you want to move with a wheelchair. So even on single deck trains the possibility to move freely with wheelchair is only theoretical.


No, this possibility is pretty real. Properly designed rail systems are entirely accessible. It is just the short-sightedness of the SBB strategy to stick to low level platform that preserve physical obstacles.


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## Coccodrillo

Raising platform to allow steepless entrance to trains and a flat floor is difficult because, beside the cost, some trains would still need to stop on low level platforms (like on cross border services). Sure trains may be provided with foldable steps, but steps are exactly the thing railways want to remove. There may also be some problems with loading gauge. I find 55 cm high platform an accpetable compromise.


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## Momo1435

flierfy said:


> Bollocks. Double-deckers are nowhere near state of the art. This technology is rather old. In fact, double-deckers are a second class solution for capacity strained systems.
> 
> The technologically most advanced trains, however, are entirely single-deckers. Alstoms AGV, the Velaro of Siemens as well as the latest Shinkansen trainsets.


In other words, you can't have a state of the art non high speed network. It's not like every single connection in every single country can sustain a full high speed network. 

For example, between Zürich and Bern/Basel a completed high speed line would be very good. But the same trains also serve the Zürich - Winterthur route that is also very busy but just too close to each other for a expensive high speed line. On the other side of the route, on the line from Bern to Lausanne/Geneve would technically be a good choice for a High Speed Line, but financially it's a different story. The new SBB double decker trains combine these difficulties of the diverse Swiss system so they can be used as good as possible on all parts of the line. Making them very state of the art.

And we just have to wait until Alstom designs the AGV2N, because it's pretty obvious that the SNCF needs the capacity on the Paris - Lyon - Marseille route. Otherwise they will still be ordering the good old fashioned TGV2N sets instead of the state of the art AGV. 



flierfy said:


> No, this possibility is pretty real. Properly designed rail systems are entirely accessible. It is just the short-sightedness of the SBB strategy to stick to low level platform that preserve physical obstacles.


This train was designed to carry as many standing people as possible, that wheelchairs can move freely outside the rush-hours is just a good but unnecessary bonus. 

But I do prefer high platform systems, but in reality it's not always possible. It's good enough that there is uniform platform height all throughout the system, new trains can be designed for that height.


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## earthJoker

It's absolutely possible to have double decker high speed trains:









But the IC2000 already reaches the current maximum on Swiss tracks, so it doesn't matter anyway.


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## thun

Its a bit like saying, a Boeing 787 or a A350 isn't state of the art because a A380 has two decks. In one word: bollocks.


Of course it makes sense to invest in double decker train sets if its the easiest option to provide higher capacity. One always have to keep in mind that Switzerland is not only very montaneous, but also densely populated, especially in the Mittelland, which makes investments in new rail lines exorbitantely expensive and difficult.


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## earthJoker

thun said:


> Its a bit like saying, a Boeing 787 or a A350 isn't state of the art because a A380 has two decks. In one word: bollocks.


The argument was that double-deckers aren't state of the art. Don't mix up things.


Suburbanist said:


> The question is: if you have a line so heavily used that you can't adopt state-of-the-art trains because you need to settle with double-deckers, you are past big time the point in which you should have expanded the line.


And yes it would be like saying the A380 isn't state of the art because the Dreamliner has only one deck. To your sophisticated vocabulary Bollocks.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ yes, today only 4 out of 7 return trips use the ETR 470, with the others replaced by conventional (non EMU) trains or transhipments.


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## Coccodrillo

Some pictures of the variable gauge prototype in Lucerne's transport museum.


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## Coccodrillo

And a flar rail used in the track linking the museum and the railway network (here, also on Street View).


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## mgk920

Coccodrillo said:


> And a flar rail used in the track linking the museum and the railway network (here, also on Street View).


What is the function of this?

Mike


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## Coccodrillo

I don't know. Flat rails are used on the external side on tracks with a very small radius of curvature, but this track is quite straight.


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## steple

Zürich HB (not from me)


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## Suburbanist

Thouse Double Deckers would look far better if they had 30% less windows and the windows on the upper level were slightly more rounded and smaller.


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## Railfan

*Zürich – Bern in 12 Minutes*

The demand for mobility is constantly increasing. At the same time the call for sustainability is getting louder. Everywhere investments flow into new technologies, in order to be able to supply the want for mobility in the future. Many studies have shown that the ecologically sustaibnable Swissmetro is technically feasible and that it makes sense from a macreconomic point of view.

Unfortunately, there is not enough political will to go ahead with this project. So a far-advanced technology of and for the next generation remains in the drawer. More than ever do we need the courage to think beyond the next economic recovery; for the future begins today. That is why Pro Swissmetro stands up for this visionary project. We are happy that you are also taking an interest in Swissmetro.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Thouse Double Deckers would look far better if they had 30% less windows and the windows on the upper level were slightly more rounded and smaller.


Looks aren't the only thing. As a frequent passenger on these trains I'd rather have even bigger windows.


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## K_

Railfan said:


> Unfortunately, there is not enough political will to go ahead with this project. So a far-advanced technology of and for the next generation remains in the drawer. More than ever do we need the courage to think beyond the next economic recovery; for the future begins today. That is why Pro Swissmetro stands up for this visionary project. We are happy that you are also taking an interest in Swissmetro.


Swissmetro AG was liquidated in 2009. The rights to the technology are now owned by the Lausanne Technical University. "Pro Swissmetro" is only a lobby group that tries to keep interest in the project alive. It's unlikely to happen in the near future.


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## Suissetralia

steple said:


> Zürich HB (not from me)


:cheers: And we don't see the trains running beneath the surface! traffic in this station is amazing


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## Suburbanist

Suissetralia said:


> :cheers: And we don't see the trains running beneath the surface! traffic in this station is amazing


It is quite busy, I guess it might be as busy as Milano Centrale (if you consider all the approaches and junction leading to the terminus station).


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## Coccodrillo

Zürich HB is slightly busier than Milano Centrale considering both passenger number and train movements, even if not that much.

As for Wikipedia, Zürich HB has 300.000 to 500.000 (well...that's not very precise) daily passengers and around 3000 train movements, while Milano Centrale has 320.000 daily passengers on around 500 trains (if considered as pairs, arriving and leaving, this equals to 1000 train movements).

However, all suburban traffic in Milan serve the (not so much) nearby Garibaldi and Repubblica stations (there are no suburban trains in Centrale), while in Zürich nearly everything pass through and stop in the Haupbahnhof.


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## Momo1435

K_ said:


> Looks aren't the only thing. As a frequent passenger on these trains I'd rather have even bigger windows.


Indeed, 

And in Switzerland big windows are always a good thing to have, just to have an better view of the beautiful scenery outside.


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## steple

A comparison between the double decker IC 2000 car and the EW IV car (both in Intercity services):

IC 2000 (from schweizer-bahnen.ch):









IC 2000 upper deck 2nd class:









IC 2000 under deck 1st class:









EW IV:









EW IV 1st class (my favourite):









detail:









EW IV 2nd class:









source: vagonweb.cz


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## Suburbanist

^^ 2nd class seats without armrest to divide the places: uncomfortable ride if you have someone by our side.


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## Suissetralia

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ 2nd class seats without armrest to divide the places: uncomfortable ride if you have someone by our side.


Are you afraid of getting infected if you touch someone else by chance? :lol: it is not uncomfortable at all


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## Coccodrillo

The SBB said that its ETR 470 will be whitdrawn by the end of 2014, and that they will not receive the planned midlife overhaul. Only minor and temporary maintenance works will be carried on for about 12 millions CHF. It is not know what are the planes for Trenitalia's ETR, nor by what they will be replaced.


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## MarcVD

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ 2nd class seats without armrest to divide the places: uncomfortable ride if you have someone by our side.


As you said once in another thread, not so long ago : there must be SOME
difference between first and second class. Here, at least, you know what you
pay for. Last car models on the Belgian network have very little difference
between second and first, and I think this is an error. First because the
50% price uplift becomes difficult to justify (for me, it's now much less a
difference of comfort than a difference of public) but also now people have
all good reasons to sit in first class with a second class ticket, and pretend
they did it by mistake when they get caught. At least here it can't happen...


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ 2nd class seats without armrest to divide the places: uncomfortable ride if you have someone by our side.


Only for the extremely anti social. Or fat.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Example: A Zürich Hautbanhof-Bern-Visp-Domodossola-Milano Centrale is scheduled. It can run without interfering with the SBB's ICs.


If you want to travel Zürich - Milano via Bern - Visp you can already do so. 
Take for example the 12:32 from Zürich to Bern, and change to the EC to Milano there. Total travel time 4h06. Just a bit slower than via the Gotthard.

However, the most important function of the Gotthard trains is not transporting people from Zürich to Milano. It's transporting people from the northern part of Switzerland to Ticino, and transporting people from Ticino to Milano. 
It's just a matter of efficiency to combine Zürich - Chiasso with Bellinzona - Milano.



> , but long distance trains are more important than commuter trains anyway.


Not when the commuters are the tax payers that financed the construction of the line.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> The Swiss railway management is cheap in the negative sense. "Revamped" old tracks, tricking schedules instead of focusing on performance, retrofitting trains instead of placing orders for state-of-the-art stock, single-lane "optmizd" tracks... Lot's of issues with Swiss rail management.


What is it that you have against efficiency? Against a company trying to make a profit? 

And why is it that you manage to time and time again display so much ignorance of the real world?

SBB _is_ placing orders for state-of-the-art stock. In fact, the railway industry has trouble offering stuff that is modern enough for the SBB....
A lot of new rolling stock is being put in to service, and they have huge outstanding orders.
SBB is a incredibly good at enticing people to travel by train. Better than anyone else in Europe apparently. That's called "success" and it does come with its share of problems. Basically the situation is that although the SBB is putting new wheels on the tracks as fast as the industry can provide them this is not sufficient to cope with the increased demand. Hence life extention measures on older stock is needed. 

That refurbished locomotive that was shown a few posts earlier fits in a well thought through concept.
The Canton of Zürich wants all S-Bahn trains to be accessible for people in wheelchairs. The solution the SBB has come up with is to order new trainsets with entrances at platform level. A lot of these new sets have entered service recently, and a lot more follow. However a lot of older sets are in service too, and these sets are only about 20 years old, so not ready for retirement by any means. For these sets SBB has bought new intermediate cars with low entrance, so that in each set one car will be accessible. Swapping out a car in each set however leads to a surplus of cars, and these will be formed in to push pull sets, using refurbished locomotives, so they can be used for peak hour trains over the next 20 years or so, when they will probably be retired, together with the locomotives.
It all makes good business sense.

And what you call "tricking schedules" is just plain common sense. Trying to make your operation more efficient at a lowest cost possible is not "tricking". It's something every industry does. 
If you want to see obsession with shaving single minutes of schedules to optimize total performance, just have a look at the automible assembly industry...


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Cancelling is not needed! Just slow'em down, like they do in Italy with hierarchized planning. If a faster train needs to pass, too bad, lower trains gotta spend time at stations idling to make room for the faster and more important trains.


One main source of delays for Italy - Switzerland trains is that in the Italian train hierarchy international trains actually come after local trains. So a Zürich - Milano EC has to make room for a delayed Como - Milano local...


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## Coccodrillo

K_ said:


> Simplon tunnel has limited capacity at the moment. That's why there are so few international trains on that route also.
> 
> The biggest problem is however Trenitalia's complete disinterest in international services.


The main if not only reason is the second one. There were few EC CIS far before the Simplon fire.



K_ said:


> One main source of delays for Italy - Switzerland trains is that in the Italian train hierarchy international trains actually come after local trains. So a Zürich - Milano EC has to make room for a delayed Como - Milano local...


No, it's false. They are the EC CIS to cause delays to Milano-Como-Chiasso S11 suburban trains, and not viceversa. When there are no EC CIS, the S11 are on usually on time.


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> No, it's false. They are the EC CIS to cause delays to Milano-Como-Chiasso S11 suburban trains, and not viceversa. When there are no EC CIS, the S11 are on usually on time.


I've actually witnessed this myself. S11 train leaves late. EC waiting on adjacent track gets delayed, and send down the line afterwards. Result: a 3 minute delay becomes a 20 minute delay.

The other problem is that Trenitalia seems to insist that a train arriving with a delay in Milano must leave with the same delay...

And that Trenitalia never gave the Cisalpino trains the importance they deserved is known. I found several references to the fact that Regional trains were given priority over Cisalpino trains in Milano. 

Here is one:


> "Die Cisalpino-Züge haben bei der Ein- und Ausfahrt im Bahnhof Mailand lediglich dritte Priorität. Sie müssen nicht nur den Hochgeschwindigkeitsflitzern den Vortritt lassen, sondern auch dem Regionalverkehr. Mit dem Ergebnis, dass sie selbst dann Verspätung haben, wenn sie pannenfrei unterwegs sind."


http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/meinung...mehr-als-einem-NeigezugProblem/story/17717586


----------



## Coccodrillo

As far I know if the expected delay of the CIS doesn't exceed 7 minutes the S11 is delayed and kept halted in Chiasso until the CIS leaves. Sometimes the CIS doesn't manage to switch from one system to the other, delaying both itself and the S11.

In addition sometimes the S11 give way to the CIS in Albate Camerlata, waiting there for minutes and increasing the delay.


----------



## webeagle12

Suburbanist said:


> The Swiss railway management is cheap in the negative sense. "Revamped" old tracks, tricking schedules instead of focusing on performance, retrofitting trains instead of placing orders for state-of-the-art stock, single-lane "optmizd" tracks... Lot's of issues with Swiss rail management.


:cripes::cripes::cripes:


----------



## gramercy

webeagle12 said:


> :cripes::cripes::cripes:


+1


----------



## Coccodrillo

Google "Rail" View on the Albula and Bernina lines: http://www.bluewin.ch/it/index.php/...view_su_Albula_e_Bernina/it/news/diversi/sda/


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Google "Rail" View on the Albula and Bernina lines: http://www.bluewin.ch/it/index.php/...view_su_Albula_e_Bernina/it/news/diversi/sda/


Unfortunately not yet online... Have to wait a few months.


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## steple

More pictures:

https://picasaweb.google.com/106600...18102011HIGHRES?authkey=Gv1sRgCLHh_53Su4S3ZA#


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## Momo1435

I predict some unproductive evenings on Google Earth for me when those pictures go online.


----------



## NICK CH+

Das arme Mädchen,gaaanz aleine vorne im Wind und 

Wetter.:naughty:https://picasaweb.google.com/106600...18102011HIGHRES?authkey=Gv1sRgCLHh_53Su4S3ZA#


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## IanCleverly

IN the second video, at around 4:50, you see a Deutsche Bahn train departing with one of the carriages in a double deck style, is this a sleeping car or something?

*Edit* Ah, you can see it in the Part 1 'still'.


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## AlexNL

I think that's the restaurant car.


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## Coccodrillo

I don't see any double deck car at 4.50, in any video, but it may be one of the half-double deck sleeping car of CityNightLine (CNL). They have two levels of cabins on one side, linked by a passage on the other side at standard height. There is a stair each two cabin, and it is impossible to go from one cabin to another (except the adjacent one) without going via the intermediate deck.


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## Momo1435

I think he meant 5:40 and not 4:50.

Then it's the restaurant car of the ICE 1, that's also visible in the 1st vid. It's not a double deck car, it just has a raised roof to fit all the kitchen equipment. The 2nd row of windows are just like skylights, nothing more. It doesn't provide any panoramic views for example.


----------



## stingstingsting

Great vids. 

Zurich Hb seems like the best place to view so many different types of passenger trains in one station. Almost 60 tracks/platforms and the busiest in the world? Wow. Its a wonder how all those tracks (and trains) can fit onto an island sandwiched at the confluence of two rivers.

Any pics on the progress of the Weinbergtunnel?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Zürich HB will have 18 stub tracks and 8 through tracks in a few years (today 4 of the 8 through tracks are under construction, and there are 4 more temporary stub tracks).

It is not the busiest on the world but with 3000 trains and 300.000 passengers a day has more traffic than Milano Centrale.

For the Weinbergtunnel: www.durchmesserlinie.ch


----------



## K_

stingstingsting said:


> Great vids.
> 
> Zurich Hb seems like the best place to view so many different types of passenger trains in one station.


A good place to watch trains is Othmarsingen, to the west of Zürich. At that place you not only get to see most of the passenger trains from Zürich to the west, but most freight on the Gotthard route too...


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## Coccodrillo

The Bpm RIC are certainly not comfortable, but I would still prefer them rather than waiting in queue on the Italian A8-A9 or in Milan's streets.

There would be enough Flirts to, at least, restore the EC CIS 18/19 between Milan and Bellinzona (or, at least, Chiasso).


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> The Bpm RIC are certainly not comfortable, but I would still prefer them rather than waiting in queue on the Italian A8-A9 or in Milan's streets.



The tunnel and the Chiasso border are the most congested points anyway.


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## Coccodrillo

Not on weekdays 7-9 and 16-20.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> The tunnel and the Chiasso border are the most congested points anyway.


Maybe for Italian definitions of congestions, but not for Swiss definitions of congestion. 
SBB seems to be able to run a lot more trains on the same infrastructure. Something ecnomists call "a higher return on capital employed" and something you seem to insist on calling "socialism"...


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## Coccodrillo

He's referring to the motorway.


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## K_

Attus said:


> Normally SBB Filrts are only equipped to 15kV~, aren't they?


SBB has several versions. The Flirts they orders for Tilo can run under 15Kv AC and 3KV DC. They also ordered Flirts for services from Basel to France that can run under 25Kv.
Some of the Tilo flirts are running on Geneva - LaPlaine, as running a 3KvDC set under 1.5Kv DC is not really a problem if you're willing to live with a bit less acceleration.


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> He's referring to the motorway.


My mistake...


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## earthJoker

CNN's The Gateway has a series on the Swiss network (centered around Zürich HB).

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/09/world/europe/zurich-rail-link/index.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/23/world/europe/feeding-zurich-station/
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/business/2011/11/01/gateway-swiss-punctuality-zurich.cnn


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## Vaud

Apparently there are plans to increase Geneva's main station capacity to meet passanger traffic increase from the CEVA line (under construction), that can already be absorved by the station, and traffic from the rest of Switzerland, and specially with Lausanne with whom number of passangers has doubled in the past 10 years (from 25K to 50K) and expected to double again in the next 10 years to 100K daily passangers using the corridor. This would be done mainly by adding two more lines at the expense of some buildings next to the station.

This is a medium-term project not expected to be built before 15 years. Total cost: Between 800 and 1,000 million.

Source: Tribune de Genève

There is another option which is building a new main station in La Praille (there is already a secondary station there), but that would cost a lot of money as it means not just building the station itself but also moving away the freight station (la Praille is that), reorganise public transportation in the city, building more lines between that station and current Cornavin's station etc.


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## K_

^^


What they could do in the short term is integrate the "French" part of the station in the Swiss part, so to have more operational flexibility. Is there any mention of that?


----------



## JB Colbert

K_ said:


> I find it rather odd that trains can only leave Milano Centrale on times that are a multiple of 5min past the hour.. But that's trenitalia for you...





K_ said:


> If there was a way to measure the degree in which a railway is socialist, I think that Trenitalia would end up being one of the more "socialist" railways in Europe, and SBB one of the least...





K_ said:


> Maybe for Italian definitions of congestions, but not for Swiss definitions of congestion.
> SBB seems to be able to run a lot more trains on the same infrastructure. Something ecnomists call "a higher return on capital employed" and something you seem to insist on calling "socialism"...


Do you suffer of italian phobia?
Be relaxed.


----------



## K_

JB Colbert said:


> Do you suffer of italian phobia?
> Be relaxed.


I don't suffer from Italophobia. I wouldn't know why. However, I do disagree with people (one in particular) who seem to think that Italy is the benchmark when it comes to things railway. Since there can't be a higher contrast in Europe than that between the Swiss and the Italian railways I'm a bit skeptical of that claim...


----------



## StuZealand

*Road-to-rail policy to miss goals* 

The government says the country’s targets for a substantial reduction in the number of heavy trucks crossing the Alps will not be reached.
In a statement on Friday, the cabinet said there would be 250,000 more trucks this year than the goal of 1 million, and that the target of a maximum of 650,000 trucks by 2018 was unrealistic.



Swiss voters approved a constitutional amendment in 1994 introducing the 650,000 limit. It was to have come into force in 2009 and was later postponed to 2018 – two years after the opening of the Gotthard Base rail tunnel.

At the time of the vote, the Swiss rallied around inhabitants of alpine valleys who considered trucks a major risk to the environment and their health, since harmful emissions are trapped by the valley walls.

One aim of building the tunnel along with the other major transalpine rail link, the Lötschberg tunnel - which opened in 2007 – was to transfer freight from road to rail in order to achieve the targets.

In its statement, the government said however that if it had not been for the opening of the Lötschberg, increased fees for transalpine vehicles and the liberalisation of rail freight, there would be 600,000 more trucks crossing the Alps each year than there are today.



No hefty hike
It added that additional measures will be needed to improve the attractiveness of rail, but only a hefty hike in truck fees – which agreements with the European Union do not allow – would enable Switzerland to achieve its 2018 target.

In a first reaction, Alpine Initiative, the lobby group behind the road-to-rail initiative, said it was “disappointed” with the government’s report, calling on Switzerland to enter serious negotiations with the EU to introduce quotas on transalpine freight.

Alpine Initiative believes this kind of system, known as the Alpine Crossing Exchange mechanism, would enable Switzerland to meet its targets.

“The government is aware of the medicine needed to cure the transit madness on our roads, but it doesn’t want to use it,” said Fabio Pedrina, Alpine Initiative president.



Quota system
The cabinet did emphasise in its report that the Alpine Crossing Exchange was the only other way - besides increasing fees significantly – to achieve Switzerland’s targets. However, neither approach had found favour in Brussels, it added.

For its part, Astag, Switzerland’s road hauliers’ association, said the government report was recognition that the country’s policy of transferring goods from road to rail has been a failure.

“Despite compulsory measures by the state, which have made road transport unilaterally and massively more expensive, in most cases rail is not competitive,” Astag said on its website.

It said Switzerland’s policy of transferring freight from road to rail had “failed conclusively”.
Astag wants to see a speedy change of policy away from state-imposed restrictions on road freight, towards “genuine cooperation” between the different freight carriers.

The next step for the government will be to propose a plan next year on how it can tap the full potential of the system of levies on heavy goods vehicles.

The agreement with the EU foresees a maximum fee of SFr325 ($347) for a journey from Basel - on Switzerland’s northwestern border with Germany and France - to Chiasso on the southeastern border with Italy. The price is currently only SFr288.

In 2010, there was an increase in both road and rail freight transported across the country, with rail taking 64.1 per cent of the total as opposed to 62.6 per cent the previous year.


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## Coccodrillo

Rail & road report from the San Gottardo region.


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## Momo1435

This is the best thing about the Bpm RIC, windows that can open even in the winter so you can stick your head out and take pictures. 

Thanks for the report!


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## Coccodrillo

I don't know how long they will last in service. There is only one left in every standard IR rake now (1 luggage van, 1 Apm EC, 1 Apm Panoramic, 3 Bpm EC, 1 Bpm RIC), a few more when extra coaches are added like on my train.


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## Suburbanist

Momo1435 said:


> This is the best thing about the Bpm RIC, windows that can open even in the winter


Trains whose windows open are so 1970 IMHO. The word of modernity is forced ventilation (with or without heating/cooling, doesn't matter) and sealed windows that reduce noise greatly.


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## Coccodrillo

Not on touristic trains like the one I traveled on.


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Not on touristic trains like the one I traveled on.


They might take an example from the RhB here. The new trains ordered for the Chur - st. Moritz service will have a photographers lounge, with opening windows. The rest of the train will be airconditioned, as is now the norm.

So the right thing for the SBB to do on this route would be to continue to offer a mixture of car types.


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## Vaud

I prefer trains with opening windows too. In Spring/Summer/Fall it's great to open them and feel the air coming in, specially when travelling around mountains! I don't mind the airconditioned, I don't think it's really needed in Switzerland if you can open windows except for some few days in the year. Unfortunately they are disappearing, altough they are still common in here for regional services to Geneva and Valais for example.


----------



## Sopomon

Vaud said:


> I've never seen a cow wondering around a railway line in an unfenced enclosure, and I'm sure that does not happen, at least not around anything faster than a cog railway


I can and does happen, I can assure you. 
In Australia, kangaroos are the problem, you sometimes see trains with smashed-up front (bumpers?) because of them.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Estonia has plenty of wildlife but collisions between wild animals and trains are hardly an issue. The largest animal that you can hit is a moose and even that doesn't do that much damage to a train. The front of the train is designed to withstand a crash into a truck, after all.


----------



## K_

Momo1435 said:


> To be fair, here in Holland were Suburbanist also lives all railway lines have fences at places where there is a road or even a footpath close-by. Although many railway are are already segregated by water, even if it's just a small ditch with water. You really don't pay any notice to it until you see foreign lines like the one in the picture where you can just walk onto the tracks.


On of the typicaly aspects of Swiss countryside is actually the general absence of fences. Fields are as a rule not fenced in. Farmers will put up temporary wire fences when grazing cattle, but generally the countryside is wide open.
you will find fences next to railways in Urban areas, but it will be more likely the owners of land next to the railway that have those up. And near to level crossings fences will make it hard to get around the barriers when closed.
But in the countryside railways are not fenced in. There really is no need for that.


----------



## K_

Vaud said:


> I've never seen a cow wondering around a railway line in an unfenced enclosure, and I'm sure that does not happen, at least not around anything faster than a cog railway


An RBS train hit a horse once, when I was still regularly commuting on their network. I was in the next train after the one that hit the poor animal, and ended up just walking the distance to the next station where trains were running normally. It was a pleasant summer evening, so the hardship endured buy us was limited...

I assume the owner of the horse got a hefty bill for the damage and delays his property caused. It's not the job of the railway to keep large animals of its tracks. That's the responsibility of the owner of the animals.


----------



## earthJoker

Suburbanist said:


> Birds can easily fly.


Oh, rly? Thank you captain obvious!

So birds can fly into a train even there is a fence. OMG trains should run in a cage.


> Land animals should use wildlife tunnels and the like. Collisions between animals and trains should be avoided. Even a small mammal hitting a train creates disturbance on the schedule, and might damage the front of the train.
> 
> God forbids a train collides with a cow!


This is hardly a problem. It could be for HSR and it could be solved by wildlife crossings there. It would cost billions to build wildlife crossings for every rail track in whole Switzerland. 
We should solve real problems first before we go for artificial problems.

We don't fence normal roads either, only motorways.


----------



## gramercy

please, look at pictures of actual accidents

a cow is turned into hamburger on sight


----------



## Suburbanist

Highways must be fenced or else very serious accidents could happen with a 120km/h 1.200kg car hitting a moose or a cow. And also to prevent illegal pedestrian crossings on the controlled-access highway.

Pedestrians can't properly judge the time they have to cross a highway with an incoming car at 120km/h, they can't judge the time of a train either. I think low fences should be mandatory. They don't cost much, though the cheapest one will not survive winters and need annual replacement in CH.


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## gramercy

and a highway is relevant here how? 

exactly what part of the front end of a T-R-A-I-N would be more than bruised by a cow?

as for humans who wonder into the way, they kinda got it coming


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## earthJoker

Suburbanist said:


> Highways must be fenced or else very serious accidents could happen with a 120km/h 1.200kg car hitting a moose or a cow. And also to prevent illegal pedestrian crossings on the controlled-access highway.


Only 80 km/h is allowed on Swiss highways. Drivers must be careful at any time on a highway. It will never happen that all Swiss highways get fences.

As for motorways, they already have fences, and new motorways have wild crossings too. Also old motoways have been upgraded with crossings along with major projects (A1 near Burgdorf for example http://maps.google.ch/?ll=47.062755,7.560182&spn=0.014602,0.033023&t=h&z=16) 

It would simply be to expensive to do this for all highways and railtracks, so it's only done on HSR and motorways.


----------



## Baron Hirsch

I remember the time an ICE around Würzburg ran into a herd of sheep at a tunnel entrance. It was quite a mess, DB sued the shepherd, and the head of DB said it would be too expensive to fence in all HSR. Seriously, I do not believe a shepherd has the duty to ensure that multi-billion companies can save the investment to create some minor obstacles around at least HSR to make both humans and animals think twice about clambering on the tracks.


----------



## gramercy

well of course HSR is different, but switzerland has none unless you count the 200 kph section between bern-olten and the _tunnel_ sections

it is impossible to fence every km of 120-160 kph rail lines


----------



## K_

Baron Hirsch said:


> I remember the time an ICE around Würzburg ran into a herd of sheep at a tunnel entrance. It was quite a mess, DB sued the shepherd, and the head of DB said it would be too expensive to fence in all HSR. Seriously, I do not believe a shepherd has the duty to ensure that multi-billion companies can save the investment to create some minor obstacles around at least HSR to make both humans and animals think twice about clambering on the tracks.


I would assume that a shepherd is responsible for his flock. It's not because DB has deeper pockets that animal owners can shirk their responsibilities.


----------



## Baron Hirsch

What is wrong with asking traffic operators to take some precautions to avoid accidents and loss of life? According to your logic, if a playground is next to a road, it is unnecessary for the municpality to build a fence around the playground, as the parents are legally responsible for their children, not the municpality.


----------



## Suburbanist

To be fair to the Swiss, uses and costumes about animal fencing differ a lot in the Alps from Southern Europe areas. But that shouldn't matter: railways with fast traffic should always be physically segregated with fences.


----------



## earthJoker

Baron Hirsch said:


> What is wrong with asking traffic operators to take some precautions to avoid accidents and loss of life? According to your logic, if a playground is next to a road, it is unnecessary for the municpality to build a fence around the playground, as the parents are legally responsible for their children, not the municpality.


Erm, by your logic, the fence must be around the road, not the playground. 

Make up your mind please.


----------



## Suburbanist

earthJoker said:


> Erm, by your logic, the fence must be around the road, not the playground.
> 
> Make up your mind please.


It would be great to have urban roadways fenced so pedestrian can only cross at designated crossings. Same reasoning for railways.


----------



## K_

Baron Hirsch said:


> What is wrong with asking traffic operators to take some precautions to avoid accidents and loss of life? According to your logic, if a playground is next to a road, it is unnecessary for the municpality to build a fence around the playground, as the parents are legally responsible for their children, not the municpality.


Around where I live there are usually no fences around playgrounds either, as indeed, parents are supposed to learn their children to watch out for traffic.
(Edit, and of course drivers in residential areas are supposed to watch out for children)
In Switzerland children are expected to be able to walk to school by themselves from a very early age.


----------



## makita09

Suburbanist said:


> It would be great to have urban roadways fenced so pedestrian can only cross at designated crossings. Same reasoning for railways.


When you rule the world I will kill myself.


----------



## earthJoker

K_ said:


> In Switzerland children are expected to be able to walk to school by themselves from a very early age.


Well not everyone prefers self-responsibility as we do. As you see some people prefer to life in a nanny state where roads are fenced and people life in anti-septic bubbles.


----------



## XAN_

Suburbanist said:


> It would be great to have urban roadways fenced so pedestrian can only cross at designated crossings. Same reasoning for railways.


Maybe state can just educate pedestrians, and than fine people for crossing in wrong places? That would be more rewarding, that fencing everything


----------



## Baron Hirsch

earthJoker said:


> Well not everyone prefers self-responsibility as we do. As you see some people prefer to life in a nanny state where roads are fenced and people life in anti-septic bubbles.


I really get a kick out of you people. You should visit Istanbul. People walk or picnick on the motorways, pedestrians jump onto the road without looking, stray dogs attack cars or motorbikes, oneway streets are converted into twoway streets at the discretion of the drivers, and when for five minutes a day there is no traffic jam people speed like crazy. Further in the countryside, government railways are at present trying to educate village and slum kids that throwing rocks at passing trains should not be their favorite passtime. 
While I am far from saying that this is a perfect world, what I am trying to say is that in the end the fact that hwile accidnets certainly happen alot, the fact that not even more happens is that in the end people allow for other's mistakes regardless of the fact of whose fault it is. If in this country people would think, "well that pedestrian has failed his self-responsibility test and thus I do not have to make an effort to avoid hitting him or her," or "that sheep herd wandered onto my tracks without asking for a written permission, so I will not hit the train's emergency brake," then we would be in a fine fix. But I am sure because everybody is so well educated in Zurich you do not have to worry about that.


----------



## pietje01

^^ Maybe in your country, but in Belgium (and not only here) everyone who builds anything open to the public (like a public playground), is responsible for accidents that happen there, unless he can prove he has done everything reasonably possible to avoid accidents.

If you build a playground next to a busy road or something else that can cause danger, you better put a big fence or you can start calling your lawyer when something happens.


----------



## Stainless

Suburbanist said:


> It would be great to have urban roadways fenced so pedestrian can only cross at designated crossings. Same reasoning for railways.


They often have these in Korea, they are awful, people hop over them to take shortcuts or walk on the wrong side of them until there is a gap. I bet if you watch any fence along an urban road long enough, someone will hop over it.


----------



## earthJoker

Baron Hirsch said:


> I really get a kick out of you people. You should visit Istanbul. People walk or picnick on the motorways, pedestrians jump onto the road without looking, stray dogs attack cars or motorbikes, oneway streets are converted into twoway streets at the discretion of the drivers, and when for five minutes a day there is no traffic jam people speed like crazy. Further in the countryside, government railways are at present trying to educate village and slum kids that throwing rocks at passing trains should not be their favorite passtime.
> While I am far from saying that this is a perfect world, what I am trying to say is that in the end the fact that hwile accidnets certainly happen alot, the fact that not even more happens is that in the end people allow for other's mistakes regardless of the fact of whose fault it is. If in this country people would think, "well that pedestrian has failed his self-responsibility test and thus I do not have to make an effort to avoid hitting him or her," or "that sheep herd wandered onto my tracks without asking for a written permission, so I will not hit the train's emergency brake," then we would be in a fine fix. But I am sure because everybody is so well educated in Zurich you do not have to worry about that.





The Dude said:


> God damn you Walter! You fuckin' asshole! Everything's a fuckin' travesty with you, man! And what was all that shit about Istanbul? What the ****, has anything got to do with Istanbul? What the **** are you talking about?


----------



## webeagle12

Baron Hirsch said:


> I really get a kick out of you people. You should visit Istanbul. People walk or picnick on the motorways, pedestrians jump onto the road without looking, stray dogs attack cars or motorbikes, oneway streets are converted into twoway streets at the discretion of the drivers, and when for five minutes a day there is no traffic jam people speed like crazy. Further in the countryside, government railways are at present trying to educate village and slum kids that throwing rocks at passing trains should not be their favorite passtime.
> While I am far from saying that this is a perfect world, what I am trying to say is that in the end the fact that hwile accidnets certainly happen alot, the fact that not even more happens is that in the end people allow for other's mistakes regardless of the fact of whose fault it is. If in this country people would think, "well that pedestrian has failed his self-responsibility test and thus I do not have to make an effort to avoid hitting him or her," or "that sheep herd wandered onto my tracks without asking for a written permission, so I will not hit the train's emergency brake," then we would be in a fine fix. But I am sure because everybody is so well educated in Zurich you do not have to worry about that.


----------



## zaphod

Well whatever, it depends on the situation and if a solution is practical(not just ideal). In my town the railroad tracks actually are fenced for about a mile.

Also if Turkish punks are throwing rocks at the train they have these things called ghetto bars to protect windows. In Boston the T commuter rail locomotives have/had them to repel bricks thrown or swung from ropes at the train.


----------



## K_

Baron Hirsch said:


> While I am far from saying that this is a perfect world, what I am trying to say is that in the end the fact that hwile accidnets certainly happen alot, the fact that not even more happens is that in the end people allow for other's mistakes regardless of the fact of whose fault it is.


Indeed, that is why everybody should watch out for everybody. It's not just pedestrians that need to watch out for cars, cars must watch out for pedestrians too. That's a well established principle everywhere in the civilized world. 
Kids in Switzerland learn to make eye contact with car drivers before crossing a street, car drivers learn that they must always be prepared to stop when in a residential area.
In the Netherlands they removed all road signs and markings, most sidewalks and pedestrian crossings in a town, and as a result got less accidents, and less congestion...
The world does not need more fences.


----------



## K_

zaphod said:


> Also if Turkish punks are throwing rocks at the train they have these things called ghetto bars to protect windows. In Boston the T commuter rail locomotives have/had them to repel bricks thrown or swung from ropes at the train.


You should put the punks behind bars, not the trains.


----------



## Vaud

zaphod said:


> Well whatever, it depends on the situation and if a solution is practical(not just ideal). In my town the railroad tracks actually are fenced for about a mile.


Obviously rail tracks in urban areas are for the most part fenced, except for some cases such as trains that run on streets like TPC in Aigle or Martigny or the LEB in Lausanne (which is going to be susbstituted by a tunnel). We're only talking about the countryside in here.



earthJoker said:


> Originally Posted by The Dude
> God damn you Walter! You fuckin' asshole! Everything's a fuckin' travesty with you, man! And what was all that shit about Istanbul? What the ****, has anything got to do with Istanbul? What the **** are you talking about?


:rofl:


----------



## steple

View over Zurich. On the right side the new cross-city rail link "Durchmesserlinie" from Alstetten to Oerlikon is under construction.


----------



## Bart_LCY

Very interesting video on technical challenges and building methods of Tieflegung Zentralbahn project in Luzern ( in German ):






Project map and some pictures, all from official site where you can find much more information: Ausbau Zentralbahn























































More pictures here

Opening date of a new line: 12th of November 2012, Monday

Opening of a new underground station Luzern Allmend/Messe: 9th of December 2012, with the annual schedule change


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## Suburbanist

^^A shame they aren't using ballastless tracks (slabs) in a brand new underground railway.


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## Bart_LCY

^^ Yeah, such a HUGE shame... I'm sure you know better what's the most cost effective technique on this particular section. You seriously have a problem! :weirdo: Swiss have a great tendency not to run overbudget on infrastructure projects. Other countries should learn from them how not to build shiny and unnecesary stuff just for sake of having it.


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## Suburbanist

^^ I'm for the approach of built first, then, later, decide what to do with the tracks as in services using them.

They could use this opportunity to reduce travel times around Luzern by 35-50 sec. per train


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## earthJoker

I don't think they could go faster with 1m gauges anyway.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I'm for the approach of built first, then, later, decide what to do with the tracks as in services using them.


the Swiss generally frown upon bankrupting the country. 



> They could use this opportunity to reduce travel times around Luzern by 35-50 sec. per train


They will reduce travel times, and will increase frequencies. They already know exactly what they are going to do with this line, and what they will do with in in the near future...


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## Vaud

A cool video about the CEVA in Geneva (french), available in HQ






Some of the real estate projects are now being approved (see article in Tribune de Genève 12th march) such as this one around the future train station of Chêne Bourg


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## K_

^^

The CEVA project is a very intersting one. One thing is not entirely clear to me however. Will it be possible to run trains directly from the Airport onwards to Annemasse and beyond? I would think that especially during the winter such trains would be quite convenient.

Another fascinating possibility would be to reactivate Evian - St. Gingolph and run trains Geneva - Evian - Valais...


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## Vaud

^^ Not in principle, as explained in the video (min 8->) trains coming from Annemasse will directly pass through Genève Cornavin and beyond, and the lines to the airport and Bellegarde will be served by connecting trains in Genève whose schedules will be optimized, which in Switzerland means connecting trains with 5min waiting times more or less. Anyway there's lots of trains already connecting the airport with cornavin.


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## K_

Vaud said:


> ^^ Not in principle, as explained in the video (min 8->) trains coming from Annemasse will directly pass through Genève Cornavin and beyond, and the lines to the airport and Bellegarde will be served by connecting trains in Genève whose schedules will be optimized, which in Switzerland means connecting trains with 5min waiting times more or less.


I know that the Swiss are masters at optimizing connections (after all, I live there .

What I had in mind were more like seasonal extras (as are also run elsewhere for the benefit of tourists), as not having to get of the train and drag your skis across Geneva main station only minutes after you've boarded the train at the airport has it's advantages. 
For that purpose what would be needed is making sure that the infrastructure allows it.


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## Vaud

^^ hehe where do you live? 

as for what you mention, what I said was related to normal lines. If necessary I guess there shouldn't be any problem to schedule a special train which would arrive at Genève Cornavin and then go back again in a simple push-pull operation so that it uses the CEVA line to get to Annemasse, the only problem is that it's being built with 15kv so the loco would need to change in Annemasse somehow.

As to why there are no direct lines ending in the airport, I guess it might do with the fact that the airport serves as an end station for many regional and national trains, but with its 4 tracks I'm not sure it would be able to handle too suburban trains covering the CEVA.


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## Coccodrillo

There is a single track link (here, the tunnel on the left), used by freight trains going from France (Bellegarde) to the La Praille goods yard. Today it is electrified at 1500 V DC and is totally independent from the Cornavin-Lancy Pont Rouge track electrified at 15 kV AC. With CEVA this latter link will be double tracked so to have a double track line instead of two parallel single track lines. The west track will have a commutable overhead line (15-25 kV AC), the east track will have only 15 kV. It would be possible in theory to run Airport-Annemasse trains, but to do that CFF should build a commutable overhead line until Châtelaine junction (here is one end of the tunnel, one being the link to La Praille yard, the other the Cornavin 1500 V DC sector, Châtelaine junction is just west of this point were the double track line to the airport and the single track line to France diverge).


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## Vaud

^^ Thanks coccodrillo, where do you get all that information?  I didn't know that track was going to be upgraded too!


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## Coccodrillo

That's how the tracks in the area look like today. The green lines denote underground parts, the red track (1500 V DC) pass under the other two tracks. There may be a few imprecisions, but the concept is there.

Today there are no electric trains switching from DC to AC tracks outside Cornavin and La Praille, the switches (points) shown in my drawing and visible on Google Maps are used only by diesel and work trains.










That's how the tracks might look like with CEVA. One of the three tracks to France/Airport will be commutable as will be one of the tracks on the bridge and tunnel to La Praille yard (between the future Lancy and Carouge stations). The commutable track on the Cornavin-Châtelaine Junction is needed because the single track 1500 V DC track (to be converted to 25 kV AC within a few years) is saturated and it would be too costly to make room for a fourth track.

I don't know what current will be used in the link tunnel (violet). I suppose 25 kV only, as there are no plans for Airport-Annemasse trains, and this track would be used only by freight trains. Even if technically it would be easy to make it commutable 15-25 kV, it would make line management difficult.

Traffic on Cornavin-Châtelaine Junction line is not that heavy by itself, but the problems is that there are two current types to handle and that one of the tracks (the red one) is partially physically isolated from the other two (it has to dive under the other tracks to pass on the other side, all that in tunnel).


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## Momo1435

BLS put up a gallery of the roll-out of it's new Stadler Rail KISS double decker EMU on their website. The regular passenger service will start in September 2012.














































source:
http://www.bls.ch/d/unternehmen/fotogalerie-dosto-rollout.php


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## Momo1435

Coccodrillo said:


> Google "Rail" View on the Albula and Bernina lines: http://www.bluewin.ch/it/index.php/...view_su_Albula_e_Bernina/it/news/diversi/sda/


Finally it's here

Some parts of both lines are now online on Google Streetview.

http://www.rhb.ch/RhB-Street-View.1908.0.html

In the next couple of weeks the whole line from Thusis to Tirano will come online.


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## TedStriker

Coccodrillo said:


> There is a single track link (here, the tunnel on the left), used by freight trains going from France (Bellegarde) to the La Praille goods yard.



Speaking of the La Praille area, am I right to think that all the cargo handling rail infrastructure is to be swept away? From the youtube video that's what my eyes are telling me, but I'd like to know for sure.


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## Coccodrillo

As far I know the freight infrastructure will be reduced for urban development, but not completely removed.


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## Coccodrillo

The Furka railway is being cleared from snow: http://www.dfb.ch/index.php?id=474#c1855


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## steple

Last week, SBB has launched a new advertising campaign. The TV commercial:






A longer version, which shows the effort of the employees:






Not only was the song «Welcome Home» specially written for SBB, it was also sung by SBB's employees. The official music video:


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## AlexNL

steple said:


> Last week, SBB has launched a new advertising campaign. The TV commercial:
> 
> (...)
> 
> A longer version, which shows the effort of the employees:
> 
> (...)
> 
> Not only was the song «Welcome Home» specially written for SBB, it was also sung by SBB's employees. The official music video:
> 
> (...)


Wow. Just wow.

That is a beautiful advertising campaign... speechless here.


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## Sopomon

AlexNL said:


> Wow. Just wow.
> 
> That is a beautiful advertising campaign... speechless here.


+1


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## General Electric

A RER station in Prilly Malley (West Lausanne) inaugurated soon!










In June 2012, an RER station will be opened in this strategic sector of the city, allowing the start of major real estate projects (look here one of 'em).
However, due to network congestion (lack of infrastructures), cadence quarter hour will be possible only for the horizon 2017-2022! Meanwhile, the cadence will be half an hour.



*Construction:*


*SOUTH:*

*Bevore:*
http://ceat.epfl.ch/files/content/sites/ceat/files/shared/docs PDF/actualites/Lausanne_SDOL.pdf









*2010, february*









*2010, june *








http://www.ouest-lausannois.ch/modul..._2009-2010.pdf

*2010, november*









*2010, december*









*2011, february*









*2011, april*












*NORTH:*

*bevore:*
2010 december









*2011, avril*

















*2011, june*









*2011, october*





*2011, december*









*2012, april*


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## webeagle12

Sopomon said:


> +1


+2 VERY well done, actually excellent!!


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## Coccodrillo

steple said:


> Last week, SBB has launched a new advertising campaign.


It's nice, but using a mix of the four national languages instead of English would have been better...


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## Teach

> using a mix of the four national languages instead of English would have been better


No, that more than likely would've sounded awkward, forced and unnatural...


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## Bart_LCY

Teach said:


> No, that more than likely would've sounded awkward, forced and unnatural...


For Swiss?? I don't think so. They're very proud of 4 national languages


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## AlexNL

True, Switzerland has 4 national languages. Making a song in 4 languages is very hard, and you have got to be careful in the way you write it. If the first verse would be in German, the people from the French part of Switzerland might get upset because "German was picked first!" Furthermore, 4 languages requires someone who can speak and sing in the 4 languages - I don't know if Selena and Hanspeter can do that.

Then there's a little bit of marketing gimmick: this campaign is going across the globe (it's linked here on SSC, I've shared it on Facebook, other forums and with friends myself) and by using English as the language in the song it is easier to understand for people who aren't from Switzerland. The song itself becomes more recognizable because you can hear what it's about. And because you can understand what the song is about, you just might get the impression that the Swiss like to welcome you into their country - which is reinforced by the beautiful scenery that's visible throughout the video.


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## Teach

> For Swiss?? I don't think so. They're very proud of 4 national languages


Yes, for the Swiss too. It doesn't matter how proud they are of their languages, when you mix four of them together in a one minute commercial, it's going to sound forced and unnatural. A song for a commercial is supposed to be simple and catchy, and should clearly convey the message. This song is simple and catchy, and everybody gets the message. A song in which you try to squeeze four different languages would more than likely be or do neither. Remember: this is a commercial, NOT a political statement. 

+ what Alex said.


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## Vaud

I agree english was best, but...



AlexNL said:


> you have got to be careful in the way you write it. If the first verse would be in German, the people from the French part of Switzerland might get upset because "German was picked first!"


That's not true. The order of the languages in the country for nation-wide stuff is always German, then French, then Italian, and in the case of SBB Romansh is not served by the company so it's not used. Nobody gets upset about this order because its disposition mirrors the number of speakers for each of them.



General Electric said:


> A RER station in Prilly Malley (West Lausanne) inaugurated soon!


Thanks for the update, GE :cheers:


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## Suburbanist

Isn't there (internal passenger) traffic from Ticino to anywhere other than Uri?


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## earthJoker

Yes to Zürich (Luzern, Basel), that's where the trains head to. Or do you really think a lot of people leave the train in Altdorf? :lol:


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## Suburbanist

earthJoker said:


> Yes to Zürich (Luzern, Basel), that's where the trains head to. Or do you really think a lot of people leave the train in Altdorf? :lol:


So they should build tunnels. At least one to Valais.


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## Coccodrillo

A branch of the Furka base tunnel leads to Bedretto valley, from where a never built line would have continued to Airolo on the Gotthard railway. This branch is however too small to be used for trains.

A more direct link is basically impossible as it would have to pass through Italy (beside of being too expensive for too little traffic).


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## Momo1435

There have been proposals to start an "internal" service from Ticino to Wallis and Lausanne via Italy and the Simplon tunnel. Going all the way around the Lago Maggiore but without taking passengers in Italy. Something like the Austrian IC trains between Innsbruck and Salzburg that go through Germany because the route is more direct and goes around the mountains.

This would have been more interesting if there was a railway line on the North West shore of the Lago Maggiore.


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## earthJoker

The Brig - Domodossola - Locarno line s already included in the Swiss ticketing system, you can even ride it for free with the GA.


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## Momo1435

But that's via the Centovalli railway, it's a nice route but not that fast and you have to change trains. An intercity going around Lago Maggiore would be faster, but I guess it would be a bit too much going this far into Italy for a reliable service.


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## Coccodrillo

The future Locarno-Lugano-Varese-Gallarate-Malpensa Airport trains may be in correspondence with the Milano-Gallarate-Genève/Basel trains from around 2014 (Locarno-Lugano section sicne 2019 and the Ceneri base tunnel).


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## earthJoker

Momo1435 said:


> But that's via the Centovalli railway, it's a nice route but not that fast and you have to change trains. An intercity going around Lago Maggiore would be faster, but I guess it would be a bit too much going this far into Italy for a reliable service.


That would be at least 3 times longer. Your suggested line along the north west of the Lago Maggiore would be better than. It would be nice to finally have a train to Ascona and Brisago.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ It was one of the many planned but never built lines. As far I know it was planned around 1850 linking Arona, Brissago, Ascona, Locarno, Bellinzona, then Chur running over the Lucomagno-Lukmanier pass.

***************

Nice map of the opening dates of existing lines up to 1908, and some planned ones: http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/75/Karte_Hist_Entwicklung_der_Eisenbahn_Schweiz.jpg


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> The mere fact they focus in a small set of made-for-IQ 40-people-who-can't-deal-with-fractions of frequencies is already a let down.


Even people with high IQs like logical easy to understand systems. And the number "60" has some very interesting properties. So it's a good base interval to plan your network around.


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> A branch of the Furka base tunnel leads to Bedretto valley, from where a never built line would have continued to Airolo on the Gotthard railway. This branch is however too small to be used for trains.


I thought the idea there was to enlarge that tunnel, and run Car shuttles to Ticino, but not build a line further down in to the valley.


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## Momo1435

earthJoker said:


> That would be at least 3 times longer. Your suggested line along the north west of the Lago Maggiore would be better than. It would be nice to finally have a train to Ascona and Brisago.


A single trip from Locarno to Domodossola takes 1:49 hours. 

If you take the trip to Domodossola from let's say Lugano it is currently already faster to go via Milano then via Locarno.


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> Even people with high IQs like logical easy to understand systems. And the number "60" has some very interesting properties. So it's a good base interval to plan your network around.


Please, don't tell me you believe in magical numbers or something like that!

With precision clocking at the second level (extremely easy and dirt cheap with any wristwatch clock lol), you can have virtually any interval you want.


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## flierfy

K_ said:


> I suggest you file a complaint with the copyright owner of the word "S-Bahn". Oh wait. There is no such authority.
> Which is why every operator can call his service an "S-Bahn" if they are so inclined.
> Like the "Orthenau S Bahn", for example. Should they stop too


It's not a copyright issue, but a matter of commensurability. The Swiss services don't meet the necessary frequency and other characteristics of an S-Bahn. Hence the labelling is disproportionate. And that applies for the Orthenau services as well.


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## earthJoker

Momo1435 said:


> A single trip from Locarno to Domodossola takes 1:49 hours.
> 
> If you take the trip to Domodossola from let's say Lugano it is currently already faster to go via Milano then via Locarno.


From Lugano it makes sense to go around the Lago Maggiore, but not from Locarno, that was my point. Sorry if I didn't say that clear enough.

A bridge between Stresa and Laveno would also open many possible connection. Then a line through the Valcuvia to Lugano.

Well you can always dream.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Please, don't tell me you believe in magical numbers or something like that!


I don't believe in magical numbers. I do know however that 60 can be divided by 2,3,4,5 and 6. Which is why there are 60 minutes in an hour...



> With precision clocking at the second level (extremely easy and dirt cheap with any wristwatch clock lol), you can have virtually any interval you want.


So there is nothing against using 60 minutes then...

If you want to maximize the value of your network you need to same base interval network wide. And you can only achieve this if you set the value a priori, and then use it as a basis for planning your investments.
And if you are going to choose an interval a priori, and implement that network wide, then choosing "60 minutes" is the sensible choice.


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## Attus

flierfy said:


> And that applies for the Orthenau services as well.


And for several other German lines as well (Dresden, Hannover, Magdeburg, Breisgau, Rhein-Neckar, Rostock,Karlsruhe, not necesserily all lines of the networks mentioned), plus all the Austrian networks. Don't you think it is your definition which is wrong if so many S-Bahns (actually a majority of them) doesn't fit it? 
I help you: the official German definition (I mean: that of the Federal Republic of Germany) for S-Bahn is: candeced traffic according to EBO, where EBO is the Eisenbahn-Bau- und Betriebsordnung. Nothing more. No restriction for frequency.


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## flierfy

Attus said:


> And for several other German lines as well (Dresden, Hannover, Magdeburg, Breisgau, Rhein-Neckar, Rostock,Karlsruhe, not necesserily all lines of the networks mentioned), plus all the Austrian networks. Don't you think it is your definition which is wrong if so many S-Bahns (actually a majority of them) doesn't fit it?


No. An S-Bahn is not defined by cheap imitations, no matter how many there are, but by its original.


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## K_

flierfy said:


> It's not a copyright issue, but a matter of commensurability. The Swiss services don't meet the necessary frequency and other characteristics of an S-Bahn. Hence the labelling is disproportionate. And that applies for the Orthenau services as well.


What is the minimum frequency then so that you can call it an "S Bahn" according to you?


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## Attus

flierfy said:


> No. An S-Bahn is not defined by cheap imitations, no matter how many there are, but by its original.


Oh, yes? In this case S-Bahn in Berlin shall not be called as "Bahn", since by its original "Bahn" is something that is in motion by steam engines.


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## Attus

flierfy said:


> No. An S-Bahn is not defined by cheap imitations


Btw., why don't you spam in German Railways and Austrian Railways thread? Why do you hate Swiss railways so much and have nothing against Deutsche Bahn and Österreichische Bundesbahnen although they have lots of "cheap imitations"?


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## Suburbanist

This looks like the "is-it-a-subway-or-underground-rail" discussion about the RER in Paris...


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## flierfy

Attus said:


> Oh, yes? In this case S-Bahn in Berlin shall not be called as "Bahn", since by its original "Bahn" is something that is in motion by steam engines.


The word Bahn has a vastly broader meaning. It isn't restricted to railways nor steam-traction.



Attus said:


> Btw., why don't you spam in German Railways and Austrian Railways thread? Why do you hate Swiss railways so much and have nothing against Deutsche Bahn and Österreichische Bundesbahnen although they have lots of "cheap imitations"?


Why should I hate Swiss railways. I just can't stand the boasting attitude by many Swiss toward their railways when these very same railways use and dilute a term whose characteristics they fail to meet. I'd be rather ashamed of that if I were Swiss.
And yes, the Austrians and Germans are barely better on this point.


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## K_

flierfy said:


> Why should I hate Swiss railways. I just can't stand the boasting attitude by many Swiss toward their railways when these very same railways use and dilute a term whose characteristics they fail to meet. I'd be rather ashamed of that if I were Swiss.
> And yes, the Austrians and Germans are barely better on this point.


Why should the Swiss be ashamed because their railways cause some discomfort for a tiny minority of extreme nitpickers?


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> This looks like the "is-it-a-subway-or-underground-rail" discussion about the RER in Paris...


Under or overground is not really that important. The London underground has large above ground parts too. The RER does however qualify as a "suburban" railway system, a system that links the suburbs with the downtown area. The Zürich S-Bahn certainly qualifies as such too. 

Did you know btw that the Swiss law does not make a distinction even between a tram and a train? Everything that runs on rails is a "train". Quite simple. Marketing is however left to the marketing departments...


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## flierfy

K_ said:


> What is the minimum frequency then so that you can call it an "S Bahn" according to you?


Literature doesn't define an S-Bahn by frequency. And neither do I. To answer your question, I expect services on an S-Bahn line at least every 20 min.


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## flierfy

K_ said:


> Why should the Swiss be ashamed because their railways cause some discomfort for a tiny minority of extreme nitpickers?


They are show-offs, that's why. Running service under a nicked label doesn't go along with the reserved nature of natural Swiss.


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## Svartmetall

I have received complaints about the thread, and whilst the discussion may be fairly academic if handled correctly, it is not on to start derailing (no pun intended) the topic to the point where it is dominated by what is a trivial issue. 

So this is just a polite request to curtail it and accept that the name is as it is and is probably here to stay and won't be influenced in the slightest by any discussions to be had on here. Infractions will be issued to offending parties as unproductive discussions like this do nothing but detract from real news.


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## K_

flierfy said:


> Literature doesn't define an S-Bahn by frequency. And neither do I. To answer your question, I expect services on an S-Bahn line at least every 20 min.


Quite a few S-Bahn lines around Bern and Zürich now have service every 15 minutes. The medium term goal is to do that for most lines.
The goal is to also have most long distance services in the Mittelland go from every 30 minutes to every 15 minutes. So then the whole nation would have an S-Bahn.

But it's basically academic. It's just marketing.

Around Zug they decided to call it "Stadtbahn". Around Lausanne its "Reseaux Express Vaudois". Bern uses an S symbol, Zürich doesn't. It's all part of people in Switzerland all doing things in their own peculiar ways. And this is good so.


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> So there is nothing against using 60 minutes then...
> 
> If you want to maximize the value of your network you need to same base interval network wide. And you can only achieve this if you set the value a priori, and then use it as a basis for planning your investments.
> And if you are going to choose an interval a priori, and implement that network wide, then choosing "60 minutes" is the sensible choice.


The basic interval used should be the one that is most efficient for the physical infrastructure (current of future) of a network.

To artificially impose 60min as a base interval is bumd. Maybe a 72m base, or a 48min base, or whatever will be the optimum for a given scenario.

When some network forces itself to a number like computers, smartphones and else didn't exist so people needed to memorize timetables, you end with aberrations like not investing any money to speed lines if they can't reduce travel time by 15 minutes or 30 minutes, such as a 21min reduction were "pointless".

CH is not a poor country, it is not an illiterate bush where people need pictograms to remember destinations because they can't read. I bet majority of CH population has some phone of enhanced cell-phone and thus any point on considering "memorization" as a criteria for timetables is an offense to intelligence and ability to make systems more complex.

I once read they used possible intervals and timetables to finance a MASSIVE project - the Gottardo tunnel - just out of capriciousness, instead of building the damn bore with the chosen design and then looking how to run trains over it. Ditto for the Lötschberg tunnel.

It is like only start a diet because you want to fit in a given cloth, instead of losing weight then worrying bout your new outfit.


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## Momo1435

You seem to be overlooking the main reason for the 60 minutes base.

It's not to make it more easy, it's to always give a good connection with other trains. Some routes could indeed have it's speed increased without to much effort. But if the result would be that a good percentage of passengers will have to wait longer at the station for the depart of the connecting trains you could still see it as a wasted investment. 

Therefor with the 60 minutes base the efficiency of the system as a whole is very high. Because the SBB has implemented this timetable very systematically all over the country I wouldn't be surprised (I haven't seen data) that the majority of the passengers actually benefit from it with shorter overall travel times. 


ps.
For the people who don't know what the 60 minutes base is. It's a system where at all the bigger stations all trains arrive minutes before the whole hour (or half hour or even quarter, depending on the frequency) and depart again minutes after the whole hour. This way there's always a good connection with other trains in every direction. Limiting the time you have to wait at the station.


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## Suburbanist

^^ But what if the whole network was planned on, say, 72min instead of 60? you could have trains on frequency of 144min, 72min, 36min, 18min, 9min, 4min50, 2min25... - for instance.

Or a base of 48min (trains running every 96, 48, 24, 12, 6, 3, 1.5 minutes).

Or a base of 53min (train running every 106min, 53min, 26min30s, 13min15s, 6min37.5s, 3min18.55s).

The principle might hold regardless of what basic frequency you chose. There is nothing magical about "every hour" instead of "every 53 minutes" or "every 1h12min". This is the point I want to make - you can chose whatever intervals you want, even if they look like a mess on outdated and unnecessary printed timetables nobody plugged into 21st century uses.

As for the second argument, I wasn't calling it, but it is worth to critique as well: while minimizing total travel time is the ultimate goal, there is nothing wrong in speeding up part of the journey leading to a connection point. It is better to spend more time waiting a train in a station than riding a slower train.

Example: route A to B transferring in X.

Situation 1: A-X 120min + 7min layover + X-B 55min => total travel time 182min

Then, let's assume they build a cool high speed line that slashes travel time A to X by 25min, without affecting other connections though. We'd then have:

Situation 2: A-X: 95min + 32min layover + X-B 55min = > total travel time 182min

Situation 2 is much better than situation 1 because people have more time to spend on the ground instead of on a slower train. Think of a flight: if you have a Toronto-Frankfurt-Mumbai flight with a 7h layover in Germany, would anyone rather slow down the planes, staying on the air more time to avoid being sit at Frankfurt Airport waiting the connection?

This idea of reducing connecting times is a plot for monopolistic rail companies not to invest in their stations, so that crappy station can be kept longer because people are confined in trains instead.


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## nachalnik

Suburbanist said:


> The basic interval used should be the one that is most efficient for the physical infrastructure (current of future) of a network.
> 
> To artificially impose 60min as a base interval is bumd. Maybe a 72m base, or a 48min base, or whatever will be the optimum for a given scenario..


Theoretically you're right.

However, there are no local networks with no interaction between them, but they are connected to a big European network. Sometimes the interaction between the local networks are more intense, sometimes less. At least some long-distance services using the same tracks/stations as local trains always cause some interaction.

And as the a base interval of 60 minutes is used all over Europe (at least in those countries where the railways are operating on a periodic timetable; but the number of those countries is growing... just have a look at France...), there is not much choice for local networks...
Of course, the sub-intervals may be different, provided that they are a factor of 60'... so 12' is possible as well as 15' or 20'.


Also the symmetry minute of periodic timetables is nowadays mostly the same (at around min. 00) all over Europe; even a 60min base interval in a given local network may cause problems (with long distance trains, connections to neighbouring networks), if the symmetry minute differs.


Nachalnik


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ International rail traffic is minimum compared to domestic traffic, except maybe for Luxembourg.

They should treat interntional traffic as a separate animal, thus allowing different intervals. Again, longer connection layovers are not a problem if overall travel time is made shorter.

I also have troubles with things like trains needing to take same routes and same stops all day, peak or off peak.


----------



## flierfy

K_ said:


> Quite a few S-Bahn lines around Bern and Zürich now have service every 15 minutes.


A 15 min headway is not achieved by a single line but by multiplexing two or more lines. That's not what we've talked about.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ International rail traffic is minimum compared to domestic traffic, except maybe for Luxembourg.
> 
> They should treat interntional traffic as a separate animal, thus allowing different intervals. Again, longer connection layovers are not a problem if overall travel time is made shorter.
> 
> I also have troubles with things like trains needing to take same routes and same stops all day, peak or off peak.


One way of turning a loss making international train in to a profit making international train is to integrate it in the domestic train system. A Frankfurt - Interlaken train is also used by people travelling Basel - Interlaken or Bern - Interlaken. 
That only works however if the international train can be integrated in the local pattern.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> The principle might hold regardless of what basic frequency you chose. There is nothing magical about "every hour" instead of "every 53 minutes" or "every 1h12min". This is the point I want to make - you can chose whatever intervals you want, even if they look like a mess on outdated and unnecessary printed timetables nobody plugged into 21st century uses.


Printed timetables are already unnecessary between major Swiss cities.



Suburbanist said:


> As for the second argument, I wasn't calling it, but it is worth to critique as well: while minimizing total travel time is the ultimate goal, there is nothing wrong in speeding up part of the journey leading to a connection point. It is better to spend more time waiting a train in a station than riding a slower train.


A shorter travel time may not always be an advantage. For example (a quite real one, as the 50' is the time gained by the Gotthard base tunnel located between Zürich and Lugano, as Lugano-Milano trains run only every two hours, and as until quite recently there weren't trains between Milano and Parma between 9.20 and 11.20).

Before:

Zürich 7.09-Lugano 9.48-Milano 10.50 + Milano 11.20-Parma 12.56

After:

Zürich 7.09-Lugano 8.58-Milano 10.00 + Milano 11.20-Parma 12.56

Zürich-Milano travel time is shortened by 50', Zürich-Parma doesn't change, Lugano-Parma takes 50' more.

It is important to note that around 60% of travellers on Milano-Zürich trains leave the train before the terminus (and a lot of them before the Gotthard tunnel) and that around 30% of passengers (and even more on peak days) don't have Milano as destination.



Suburbanist said:


> ^^ International rail traffic is minimum compared to domestic traffic, except maybe for Luxembourg.


With the opening of two new lines in each of Geneva and Ticino regional rail networks most of their trains will cross the border. Also many trains around Basel are international. 

no orario x ch


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ But what if the whole network was planned on, say, 72min instead of 60? you could have trains on frequency of 144min, 72min, 36min, 18min, 9min, 4min50, 2min25... - for instance.
> 
> Or a base of 48min (trains running every 96, 48, 24, 12, 6, 3, 1.5 minutes).
> 
> Or a base of 53min (train running every 106min, 53min, 26min30s, 13min15s, 6min37.5s, 3min18.55s).
> 
> The principle might hold regardless of what basic frequency you chose. There is nothing magical about "every hour" instead of "every 53 minutes" or "every 1h12min". This is the point I want to make - you can chose whatever intervals you want, even if they look like a mess on outdated and unnecessary printed timetables nobody plugged into 21st century uses.


Remember that the basic time interval is not an emergent property of a network. It's not something you discover. It's something you design in to your network. The timetable determines where you need switches, signals and fly overs in your network, and where you don't. So efficient network infrastructure planning starts with the timetable. 

Can you give me a good argument against using 60 minutes? 
You keep repeating that it does not matter, and that you could use other intervals. However the fact that you _can_ use other intervals doesn't mean you should. I can give you a very good one against 53: That is a prime, and primes are very inconvenient. You can't easily divide them in subintervals.
When I studied engineering one of the things my instructors told me was that if you could use a certain value, a certain dimension in a design freely, than you should use a round number. 

"One Hour" is such a round number. So is "Two Hours", which is the basis RFF uses. So when you start designing a timetable, using an hour is logical. It is efficient. It is aesthetic. And it is a good way of maximizing both the value for the customer and the company simultaneously. 
But we know you don't like that...



> As for the second argument, I wasn't calling it, but it is worth to critique as well: while minimizing total travel time is the ultimate goal, there is nothing wrong in speeding up part of the journey leading to a connection point. It is better to spend more time waiting a train in a station than riding a slower train.


Here you have it completely backwards. Research has shown that subjectively time is perceived as moving faster when in a moving vehicle than when waiting in a terminal. 10 minutes spend on a train doesn't appear as long as 10 minutes on a platform. Waiting is not fun.
That is also one of the reasons why punctuality is more important than speed.


----------



## K_

Momo1435 said:


> Therefor with the 60 minutes base the efficiency of the system as a whole is very high. Because the SBB has implemented this timetable very systematically all over the country I wouldn't be surprised (I haven't seen data) that the majority of the passengers actually benefit from it with shorter overall travel times.


When the new 2004 timetable was published the SBB produced a matrix of all IC/IR stations in the country and travel times between them, and how much the time was reduced between them. This matrix showed that most origin - destination pairs were faster in the new timetable.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Near me, there is a railway where trains with matching stopping times depart at
5:19
6:19
9:19
12:19
15:19
17:19
19:19
22:19
This kind of regularity does help both with schedule making and with memorizing the schedule by infrequent users.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Nobody needs to MEMORIZE schedules when everybody has smartphones or computers to keep their schedules and check things out.


----------



## Teach

> Nobody needs to MEMORIZE schedules when everybody has smartphones or computers to keep their schedules and check things out.


Ever tried to explain to your grandmother how a smartphone works?


----------



## Coccodrillo

earthJoker said:


> There are only few lines within Switzerland with such a potential. And it would be necessary to have dedicated lines for those. I am actually in favor of building 2 of those lines, a (Lyon)-Geneva-Laussane-Bern-Zürich-(Munich) and a Basel-Zürich-Lugano-Milano one. With an possibilty to run trains directly between Bern and Basel.


A new Geneva-Lausanne line would be useful and another one on the Basel-Bern-Zürich urgent, but I don't see that happening quickly given today's government.

A north-south line would be nice for freight traffic but useless if the Italians (and partially Germans) continue doing nothing.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The end is approaching...


----------



## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Nobody needs to MEMORIZE schedules when everybody has smartphones or computers to keep their schedules and check things out.


I don't want to have to rely on a smartphone or a computer while I'm travelling. I simply memorize the times of my trains, and I can add +30 or +60 is needed. Easy-peasy.


----------



## StuZealand

*Smartphone penetration “close to 50 per cent”*

According to this recent news article on SwissInfo:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Smartphone_penetration_close_to_50_per_cent.html?cid=32324622

Sounds like there's still some way to go before all rail passengers will be relying on their phones for their time tables.


----------



## Suburbanist

StuZealand said:


> Sounds like there's still some way to go before all rail passengers will be relying on their phones for their time tables.


What if you consider people with access to any phone and any computer, so that they could still send an SMS and get the next departing trains on their phones or access a website??


----------



## Teach

> What if you consider people with access to any phone and any computer, so that they could still send an SMS and get the next departing trains on their phones or access a website??


Yeah. Or you could make timetables that are simple and easy to remember and memorize. Keep things simple. Just because you CAN make more complicated timetables as more people have the means to access that information, doesn't mean you SHOULD. We as humans have grown up with, and have organised our lives around the 24 hours a day, 60 minutes per hour system, so it only makes sense that our transport system works around that too.


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> A new Geneva-Lausanne line would be useful and another one on the Basel-Bern-Zürich urgent, but I don't see that happening quickly given today's government.


Where would you build a new Geneva - Lausanne line? Right now the medium term plan is to bring it to four tracks throughout. The line is quite flat and does not have any tight curves, which means that increasing the speed to 200 kph would be possible too.
But as always, this has to be considered in the context of the whole system. And right now what the customers seem to want is that the priority should be given to more train, not necessarily faster trains. Don't forget that going from a 30 minute to a 15 minute interval is equivalent to cutting about 10 minutes from total trip times. 

Building a new line from Olten to Zürich so that Bern - Zürich can be done at high speed throughout is put forward regularly, but the problem is that this would be very expensive, and it is doubtful that the utility would be sufficient to justify building it. After all, current trip times on Bern Zürich are already under an hour. Do you really want to encourage even more long distance commuting?

And yes, the Swiss will not throw unlimited amounts of money at infrastructure, and that is , in my opinion, a very good thing.


----------



## K_

StuZealand said:


> According to this recent news article on SwissInfo:
> 
> http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Smartphone_penetration_close_to_50_per_cent.html?cid=32324622
> 
> Sounds like there's still some way to go before all rail passengers will be relying on their phones for their time tables.


And that is mostly because they don't have to. I know for example that no matter where I'm headed in Switzerland, I have to be at the station at xx:00 or xx:30, and no matter where I'm headed in Germany I just have to be there at xx:00...

So yes, you don't bother with schedules then.


----------



## nachalnik

K_ said:


> And that is mostly because they don't have to. I know for example that no matter where I'm headed in Switzerland, I have to be at the station at xx:00 or xx:30,



Hmm.

That only applies to full ITF-hubs, where trains meet at around .00 and/or .30. For example at Zurich or Bern. 

But you can't rely on the .00/.30 departures at *all* stations....not even for all hub-stations (think of Lausanne or Luzern).


In Switzerland you can rely on regular (hourly, often half-hourly) departure times anywhere, but not necessarily at .00 and/or .30....


Nachalnik


----------



## gramercy

Coccodrillo said:


> The end is approaching...


castione- line?


----------



## Sunfuns

There are some weak points in the Swiss train network and few of them will be addressed by currently ongoing large projects (Gotthard base tunnel, CEVA in Geneva etc), but overall the system is one of the best in the world and there is no particular need to throw money at more giant projects. What I would appreciate more is an accelerated renewal of rolling stock. I commute to work every morning on Basel-Rheinfelden line and most IR trains are 30-40 years old with few clearly being in the last stages of their useful lives...

By the way this wikipedia article (in German) gives a fairly good overview of all railway/tram projects currently underway in Switzerland or in advanced stages of planning: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer_Eisenbahnprojekte


----------



## Coccodrillo

gramercy said:


> castione- line?


Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrovia_Mesolcinese (Wikipedia in other languages is more complete)

The federal concession will expire on 31 December 2013, the last trains will run probably until it snows (there aren't snowploughs on the line).


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> Don't forget that going from a 30 minute to a 15 minute interval is equivalent to cutting about 10 minutes from total trip times.


This is only true if you assume people would not check timetables before travelling. Which is a dumb thing to go. Only when service frequency is like a high-performance subway line (one train every 4 minutes or less) one could really count on going to a station without bothering with the timetable.

Unless one has time to waste and wants to do so, nobody would just head to the station and wait the next every-30-min train without being sure, before leaving their house/office/wherever the actual departure time.



> Building a new line from Olten to Zürich so that Bern - Zürich can be done at high speed throughout is put forward regularly, but the problem is that this would be very expensive, and it is doubtful that the utility would be sufficient to justify building it. After all, current trip times on Bern Zürich are already under an hour. Do you really want to encourage even more long distance commuting?


The idea of not building some transportation infrastructure of whatever mode (rail, road, air) to compel people not to commute longer is social engineering of the worst type. The role of transportation should be always to INCREASE throughput and volumes of people/goods transported, not to reduce them. Unless you are one of those localists who think fast transportation is a sin that disconnects people from their immediate surroundings.


----------



## Sunfuns

All this talk about social engineering is a nonsense. Simply put a new line between Olten and Zurich would cost a lot and at this time is not really needed. Money doesn't actually grow on trees and in my opinion there are better uses for it...


----------



## K_

nachalnik said:


> Hmm.
> 
> That only applies to full ITF-hubs, where trains meet at around .00 and/or .30. For example at Zurich or Bern.
> 
> But you can't rely on the .00/.30 departures at *all* stations....not even for all hub-stations (think of Lausanne or Luzern).


Lausanne will become a .00/.30 hub soon, and Luzern will too, eventually.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> This is only true if you assume people would not check timetables before travelling. Which is a dumb thing to go. Only when service frequency is like a high-performance subway line (one train every 4 minutes or less) one could really count on going to a station without bothering with the timetable.
> Unless one has time to waste and wants to do so, nobody would just head to the station and wait the next every-30-min train without being sure, before leaving their house/office/wherever the actual departure time.


You are forgetting an important thing: The big competition for PT is the Car. And you don't have to look up a schedule when you take a car.
But that is not really the main point here. Shorter headways between train means more flexibility for the customer, and the translates in to time savings. It does make a difference if running 15 minutes late during a meeting means you'll be home 1 hour later versus only half an hour later, or only 15 minutes later. 
Also for many people there is no choice in when to head for the station. People may be on shifts, or arrive with other trains or buses. Having shorter intervals means that more people will have short transfers or less wasted time before the next departure after their work ends. 




> The idea of not building some transportation infrastructure of whatever mode (rail, road, air) to compel people not to commute longer is social engineering of the worst type. The role of transportation should be always to INCREASE throughput and volumes of people/goods transported, not to reduce them. Unless you are one of those localists who think fast transportation is a sin that disconnects people from their immediate surroundings.


This has nothing to do with social engineering. This has mostly to do with not wasting tax payers' money. At one moment you start to have increasingly reduced returns of investment. Yes, it would be nice to be able to commute from Lugano to Zürich. But is it nice enough to justify the cost that would be involved in making that possible? You can't have everything. That's one of the basic principles of capitalism...

I still am amazed that you seem to be very much in favor of the spending half of "tax and spend socialism".


----------



## K_

Sunfuns said:


> There are some weak points in the Swiss train network and few of them will be addressed by currently ongoing large projects (Gotthard base tunnel, CEVA in Geneva etc), but overall the system is one of the best in the world and there is no particular need to throw money at more giant projects. What I would appreciate more is an accelerated renewal of rolling stock. I commute to work every morning on Basel-Rheinfelden line and most IR trains are 30-40 years old with few clearly being in the last stages of their useful lives...


Accelerating the renewal of rolling stock isn't really going to happen. All the major manufacturers have full order books. 
But SBB is going to take delivery of an unprecedented amount of new rolling stock over the next few years. There are the new IC/IR double decker trains, and there is also a quite large order of RE double deckers of which the first one has just been delivered.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ they are refurbishing the old Bpm 51 RIC coaches exactly because of the urgent need of capacity ^^


----------



## earthJoker

Coccodrillo said:


> A north-south line would be nice for freight traffic but useless if the Italians (and partially Germans) continue doing nothing.


The Germans have some delays but the work is in progress, and the French have now very good connections from Basel. So a faster Basel-Olten line would make sense.



Suburbanist said:


> This is only true if you assume people would not check timetables before travelling. Which is a dumb thing to go. Only when service frequency is like a high-performance subway line (one train every 4 minutes or less) one could really count on going to a station without bothering with the timetable.
> 
> Unless one has time to waste and wants to do so, nobody would just head to the station and wait the next every-30-min train without being sure, before leaving their house/office/wherever the actual departure time.


When you work at a client you can't decide when you leave. You just leave when your work at that client is done. And after that you want to return as fast as possible because time is money.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Nobody needs to MEMORIZE schedules when everybody has smartphones or computers to keep their schedules and check things out.


Smartphone gives the user nothing which a paper pocketbook schedule would not.

The schedule should be sufficiently simple and memorable that a user who needs to reach an unfamiliar destination (or hears of upcoming schedule change) can cast a quick glimpse on the schedule - and then have the confidence that he or she can quickly read and memorize the part they need, do just that - and then put the book or smartphone back in the pocket, or navigate to another page, or dial a number to call someone bout the trip just planned.

The schedule should inspire confidence, considering that the user is confronted with the two temptations of taking his car out of garage, or not bothering with the trip.


----------



## Momo1435

Today the SBB has published their official "Invitation to tender" for 29 non-tilting high speed trains for the North-South Axis via the Gotthard and the Lötschberg tunnels.
http://www.sbb.ch/sbb-konzern/medien/medienmitteilungen.newsdetail.2012-4-1604_45_01.html


Some of the details from the actual tender 
www.simap.ch/ (I can't link to the actual tender, you have to search SBB).

- SBB intends to purchase TSI Class 2 single-deck high-speed trains for operations on the rail network in Switzerland as well as in Germany, Italy and Austria

- The following types of vehicles shall be supplied: 200-m-long trains (max. length in identical-type coupled units: 400m + 1%)

- The minimum useful operational life should be 25 years. The running gear, traction equipment and structure of the high-speed trains shall nevertheless be designed for a service life of 40 years.

- Top speed of at least 249 km/h (for 15/25kV AC) and 160 km/h (for 3kV DC)

- Conclusion and signing of the contractual agreement scheduled for Q3 2013


The trains should come into service on late 2017. This will result in 3 year gap after the ETR 470 will be phased out late 2014. The SBB will come with an announcement about an interim solution for this period in a few months.


----------



## thun

Sounds like a good competition between Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens.
ICx, anyone?


----------



## K_

thun said:


> Sounds like a good competition between Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens.
> ICx, anyone?


ICx would be a good fit I think. Especially since they will be certified for Germany, Austria and Switzerland and DB is interested in having theirs certified for Italy as well. If tilting trains are no longer needed for North-South traffic some of the existing ETR.610 sets could be used for Zürich - Brussel services. 

An interesting detail in the tender is that it include two options that, if lifted, would mean up to 92 additional sets. Quite a big order...


----------



## Suburbanist

Let's see if Bombardier can win this. I'm afraid of a duopoly Siemens-Alstom and would rather have some other company bid lower for the contract.

If bombardier wins, it would likely subcontract some of the work to AnsaldoBreda and it has been doing with the ETR1000. That way, Ansaldo can recuperate from the IC4 bad PR it got. Hopefully.


----------



## gramercy

how do you come up with a number like 29? why not 30 FCOL

only the swiss..


----------



## Sunfuns

thun said:


> Sounds like a good competition between Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens.
> ICx, anyone?


Isn't CAF also not producing high speed trains? The local Stadler I guess is only into commuter trains...


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> If bombardier wins, it would likely subcontract some of the work to AnsaldoBreda and it has been doing with the ETR1000. That way, Ansaldo can recuperate from the IC4 bad PR it got. Hopefully.


The trains are needed for 2017, not 2037.

Stadler tried to subcontract some Flirt trains to AnsaldoBreda. The Stadler half of them is nearly completed, while AnsaldoBreda apparently hasn't started building them.



gramercy said:


> how do you come up with a number like 29? why not 30 FCOL
> 
> only the swiss..


Because 29 trains are cheaper than 30 and the planned service doesn't require more.


----------



## Vaud

Sunfuns said:


> Isn't CAF also not producing high speed trains? The local Stadler I guess is only into commuter trains...


Not really 

Stadler has some real long-distance beauties like the KISS now finishing the testing and drivers' training to start operating soon:









It's also been sold to Austria already

4010 007-1Westbahn ( Stadler KISS ) par vsoe, sur Flickr

And Bombardier also has manufacturing facilities in the country, in Villeneuve to be more precise.


----------



## earthJoker

gramercy said:


> how do you come up with a number like 29? why not 30 FCOL
> 
> only the swiss..


They read this thread and after reading Suburbanist's arguments against round numbers rethought their decision to buy 29.


----------



## Momo1435

I found this in the tender:

"*Preliminary exploratory meetings* have been held with the following potential bidders: *AnsaldoBreda, Alstom, Bombardier, CAF, Hitachi Rail Europe, Siemens, Stadler, and Talgo Deutschland GmbH.* SBB’s objective in conducting these meetings has been to assess the market and risks concerning the feasibility of this rolling stock, and review the technical features of rolling stock currently available on the market for the regions in which SBB plans to deploy it. These bidders are not considered to have had prior involvement, and are expressly entitled to submit a tender."


The only companies that hadn't been named in this thread are Hitachi and Talgo. It remains to be seen if Stadler, who only recently expanded into the 200 km/h IC market will actually go a step further and move into the high speed market. They could come up with a single deck version of their KISS double deck EMUs and speed it up to 249 km/h. 

From an unbiased perspective the main issue for AnsaldoBreda right now is that their future is very unclear. It's very possible that the company will be sold before this contract is actually awarded. Hitachi is one of the recent companies that has shown interest in buying AnsaldoBreda and Ansaldo STS. This could result in a situation where 1 company has suddenly 2 bids, I doubt that the SBB will be happy about that. Btw, from a biased perspective: F*ck Ansaldo


I also don't see anything about a minimum amount of work that should be done in Switzerland for this contract.


----------



## Vaud

^^ I hope I'm wrong but I don't see Stalder developing a new high-speed train for a 29-train offer even with so many options in the contract, and the market of high-speed rail is more closed with countries usually buying stock from companies based in their territory.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Momo1435 said:


> The trains should come into service on late 2017. This will result in 3 year gap after the ETR 470 will be phased out late 2014. The SBB will come with an announcement about an interim solution for this period in a few months.


SBB CFF FFS is planning to use conventional coaches sandwiched between two Re 474 locomotives to reduce manoeuvres in Zürich and Milan (especially in the latter) and, in 2017-2018, in Rotkreuz.


----------



## K_

gramercy said:


> how do you come up with a number like 29? why not 30 FCOL
> 
> only the swiss..


SBB plans very carefully and probably already knows how many trains they need to cover all the services they intend to run on the Gotthard.

They have options for more trains though. You never know what might happen. SBB might decide that the only option to get decent Switzerland - Italy traffic going is to go open access, like DB-ÖBB.


----------



## StuZealand

gramercy said:


> how do you come up with a number like 29? why not 30 FCOL
> 
> only the swiss..


Maybe it's because 29 is a prime number! :lol:


----------



## K_

Vaud said:


> ^^ I hope I'm wrong but I don't see Stalder developing a new high-speed train for a 29-train offer even with so many options in the contract, and the market of high-speed rail is more closed with countries usually buying stock from companies based in their territory.


But a 249 kph train is not a high speed train. The TSI criteria for a 200 kph train are the same as for a 249 kph train. It's only at 250 kph that a train becomes "high speed" according to the TSI.
Stadler has already build 200 kph versions of it's FLIRT and KISS platform. I don't think that 249 kph is beyond the capabilities of the Stadler engineers. And Stadler wants to expand. 

What Stadler could offer is a train that consists of two single ended five car FLIRT sets, each with two power packs, semi permanently coupled with a restaurant car or a second class coach (to cover both variants SBB wants). Such a train would have 4 powerpacks and between 5000 and 6000 kW.


----------



## AlexNL

My guess is that the contract will be awarded to Alstom or Bombardier, potentially in a joint venture as they did with the ICN. If I'm not mistaken (I am not into that much detail of the Swiss railway market), InterCity Neige is a success story.

AnsaldoBreda bidding and winning the contract? Highly unlikely due to their track record with the V250. Theoretically speaking, the V250 is a perfect match for SBB's requirements, achieving a top speed according to specifications, complies with TSI's, etc. But realistically, they don't stand much of a chance.


----------



## Suburbanist

70% of V250 problems are due to the inept actions of Infrabel and, to a much lesser extent, ProRail.


----------



## hammersklavier

Suburbanist said:


> The principle that every traffic can run faster if it is completely segregated from everything else.


Lost in the '50s?


----------



## XAN_

hammersklavier said:


> Lost in the '50s?


Well it seems that Suburbanist just cant accept compromises and love shiny stuff to much.
In a real life, when you can get 90% of effect for 50% of cost, you will go for it, while Subrubanist will pursue 100% effect for 100% of cost, just for shininess...


----------



## Momo1435

Graubünden & Rhätische Bahn are actively promoting the additiom to the UNESCO world heritage of the Albula and Bernina railway lines. After the Google Street view from the train you can now take an online walk along both lines from Thusis to Tirano. The real time video of the 36 hour walk is uploaded on a special website.
http://www.webwandern.ch/

The route of the walk is along regular foot paths along the railway lines. And between Preda and Spinas, where the train uses the Albula tunnel the video over the mountain.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Today another negative record may have been reached: out of 14 trips scheduled to be done with the ETR 470 Pendolino, only two were run with that type of train. A third trip was canceled because the train broke down en route.

This means that out of 9 trainsets, one was in service, one broke down when running, and the other 7 were out of use for various kinds of failures.


----------



## webeagle12

Coccodrillo said:


> Today another negative record may have been reached: out of 14 trips scheduled to be done with the ETR 470 Pendolino, only two were run with that type of train. A third trip was canceled because the train broke down en route.
> 
> This means that out of 9 trainsets, one was in service, one broke down when running, and the other 7 were out of use for various kinds of failures.


cant blame Switzerland trying to get rid of them. Piece of junk...


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## Coccodrillo

It's also lack of maintenance from Trenitalia, which owns 5 of these trains. SBB owns 4 trains, but they work better and run more often than the identical Trenitalia's sets. Although they are still unreliable and of expensive maintenance.


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## AlexNL

How are the ETR 600 and ETR 610 (New Pendolino) doing now that they're no longer owned by Cisalpino, but by SBB and Trenitalia instead. Are these trains reliable, or are they just as worthless as their predecessor, ETR 470?


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## Coccodrillo

They are better, and SBB is even considering to order more of them (it's an option, not a certitude, and don't ask anything about that - I don't know more).

By the way they are still owned by Cisalpino AG (but they are managed as two indipendent fleets with two different owners) for legal reasons: the original contract with the guarantee was made by Cisalpino, that will continue to own the vehicles for a certain time. The ETR 470 instead have been split between SBB (trains 0, 2, 3, 5, 9) and Trenitalia (trains 1, 4, 6, 7, 8).

(train 0 is the 3-car prototype, never used in revenue service, apparently now partly owned by SBB)


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> By the way they are still owned by Cisalpino AG (but they are managed as two indipendent fleets with two different owners) for legal reasons: the original contract with the guarantee was made by Cisalpino, that will continue to own the vehicles for a certain time. The ETR 470 instead have been split between SBB (trains 0, 2, 3, 5, 9) and Trenitalia (trains 1, 4, 6, 7, 8).


The Trenitalia ETR 610 no longer run in Switzerland AFAIK however. The service over the Simplon is done enterily with swiss stock. The service over the Gotthard is mostly done with Swiss ETR 470's, and loco hauled sets, as Trenitalia rarely has more than one of it's 5 ETR 470's in working order.


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## Coccodrillo

K_ said:


> The service over the Gotthard is mostly done with Swiss ETR 470's, and loco hauled sets, as Trenitalia rarely has more than one of it's 5 ETR 470's in working order.


That's why I said "_SBB owns 4 trains, but they work better and run more often than the identical Trenitalia's sets_".

Usually SBB uses three sets on trips 13-16, 21-15 and 153-22 (3 sets out of 4*), Trenitalia uses one on trip 12-17-20-25 (1 set out of 5). Trenitalia should use an ETR also on the trip 14-23, but it offer an hauled composition instead. The remaining trip 15-24 is a Swiss conventional train by schedule (Re 484 loco + 6 coaches).

This means that 75% of SBB's ETR 470 are in working order, while available Trenitalia's ETR 470 are only 20% (in these days it's an astonishing 0% are none of them is working).

If trains from Italy are late they might be stopped in Arth Goldau (40 minutes from Zürich), from where they start again to Milano to avoid propagation of delays. This happens nearly daily with trains 12-17 (because they are not so loaded), rarely with trains 20-25 (because they are well loaded), and sometimes with trains 16-21 (usually SBB uses a third ETR if the 16 is late).

*if train 16 is on time, which happens statistically one or two times a month, the set is then used on train 21, so that only one ETR is needed for all 13-16-21-158 trains instead of two


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## Momo1435

Coccodrillo said:


> They are better, and SBB is even considering to order more of them (it's an option, not a certitude, and don't ask anything about that - I don't know more).


According to the Eisenbahn-Reveu 6/2012 it's 1 of 4 options that is considered.

The 4 options:

*- Loco hauled trains.*

6 sets with a Re 474 locomotive at each end, with 7 intermediate cars max (because of train length restrictions at Milano. They will consist of EC cars plus a EW IV restaurant car that needs to have some modifications. For the Swiss leg of the trip extra cars will be added. For this the SBB has asked Bombardier how much it will costs to retrofit some of the IC Bt driving trailers with the radio control system of the Re 474. So they can form the standard extra capacity sets with EW IV stock. 

*- Taking options of the ETR 610*

There are open options for 8 more ETR 610 sets. Some of them are for a delivery before December 2014, Alstom can deliver them quickly. And without any upgrades or other changes they can put into service directly.

*- Using Stadler Rail Flirt EMUs.*

In this option the SBB will buy 12 6-car Tilo Flirts, this type already has permission for use in Italy and can be delivered quickly. They will get a more comfortable interior then the current regional Tilo Flirts. After the new High Speed Trains will replace them on the EC services they will go to Tilo to be used on their regular regional services between Ticino and Italy. 

*- Suspending the Zurich - Milano services from 2014. *

This option is the non decision option. I's not actively pursued but it will be the consequence when the board of the SBB doesn't make any decision at all. 


The SBB hasn't said which option they prefer, but with all the tests with the Re 474 loco hauled trains this option seems to be the most likely to be chosen right now.


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## Coccodrillo

The ETR 610 option is also being evaluated seriously, at least 8 sets, maybe more.

It may be a mixture of the first and second option, considering also that a 7 car ETR 610 would be too small for the Gotthard (at least on weekends and in summer).


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## K_

Momo1435 said:


> 6 sets with a Re 474 locomotive at each end, with 7 intermediate cars max (because of train length restrictions at Milano.


Train length restrictions at Milano, really? Milano Central can't cope with a train longer than that?



> *- Suspending the Zurich - Milano services from 2014. *


I assume that is the option that Trenitalia would prefer...


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## Momo1435

K_ said:


> Train length restrictions at Milano, really? Milano Central can't cope with a train longer than that?


This is what the article says:

"... die miet Rücksicht auf Einschränkungen in der Gleiszuteilung in Milano Centrale nicht mehr als sieben Zwischenwagen aufweisen dürfen."

There are several ways to interpreted this, the Italians bullying the SBB is one of them.


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## Coccodrillo

The EC 15-24 (loco+ 6 coaches) is often received or sent from track 2, which is quite short (around 8 coaches and a loco, or 7 coaches and 2 locos).

The 9 coaches ETR 470 are instead forced to use longer tracks, usually those between 4 and 11 (included).


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## Coccodrillo

Trenitalia has decided to retire its ETR 470 sets from EuroCity (dis)service probably already some time ago. In December 2009 it promised to have all its 5 trains in running order and to keep one of them in reserve in case of delays, but it has never maintained this promise. In December 2011 Trenitalia promised to make available two trains a day, one for trips 12-17-20-25 and one for trips 14-23.

14-23 last run as ETR on 26th March 2012, and 12-17-20-25 last run regularly as ETR on 30th April 2012. Since then Trenitalia doesn't make available regularly any ETR 470, as since 1st May it only sent an ETR to Switzerland a few times. In the last 36 days, a Trenitalia's ETR worked in Switzerland 7 days of the planned 36, the other days all remained in the depot or shuttled between Milano and the Swiss border at Chiasso (apparently the only working set, number 001, can run under 3 kV DC but no more under 15 kV AC).

Now Trenitalia said officially that it will keep its ETR 470 out of use at least until 30 June, but I suppose forever.

In my opinion this is a deliberate choice, so as to oblige the SBB to use its stock for all Milano-Zürich trains. This would free Trenitalia's ETR 470 for use on Italian national services, either on ESCI/Frecciabianca trains or on Frecciargento/Frecciarossa trains (I know for sure that the conversion of the ETR 470 from 15 kVF to 25 kV has seriously been projected).

Train ETR 470.004 is waiting in a workshop since December 2010 (18 months), while some coaches of trains 006 and 007 are also stored following an accident. The only Trenitalia's 470 "working" sets are number 001, 008, and some coaches from trains 006 and 007 joined together in a single consist.

SBB's trains, number 002, 003, 005 and 009, are all in working order except the one that broke down a few days ago.


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## Coccodrillo

Another landlside blocked the Gotthard railway this morning, causing three injuried between workers who were working on this mountain, the same that slided in March blocking the line for 5 days. The line may reopen on Friday.


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## webeagle12

Gotthard train line cut off for one month

The Gotthard railway line, the main north-south axis through the Swiss Alps, will be shut down for at least a month after a landslide damaged the track near Gurtnellen in canton Uri. Swiss Federal Railways said the site remains unsafe.

The company said on Wednesday the cliff face would probably have to be dynamited as more rocks threaten to come crashing down on the line and the valley below.

Federal Railways spokesman Reto Kormann added making the site secure and clearing the debris would take at least a month, meaning the closure of the line would last as long. Work will include repairing the electric line, the tracks as well as a retaining wall.

Up to 3,000 cubic metres of rock came tumbling down on Tuesday, injuring two workers and carrying away another who is still buried under the debris according to the authorities.

The men were securing the site of a smaller landslide that came down in March, closing the line for five days while other rocks were dynamited and the site cleaned up.

The recovery of the 29-year-old’s body has not been able to get underway due to the instability of the cliff above, where another 500 cubic metres of rock threaten to come down at any time. An unaccompanied sniffer dog was able to find the body’s location on Tuesday.

Disturbances

Rail traffic has been seriously disturbed by the shutdown. Around 4,000 passengers per day usually travel along the Gotthard line.

Travellers from northwestern Switzerland heading south to canton Ticino and Italy have been advised to take trains going through the Lötschberg and Simplon tunnels. Those leaving from Zurich can transfer to buses to get around the accident site, but can also expect to arrive at their destinations up to 90 minutes late.

The Federal Railways is also scrambling to find alternative solutions for up to 1,500 schoolchildren who had booked trips to Ticino for their end-of-year excursions this Friday, according to Kormann.

Cargo traffic is another problem. So far ten goods trains are blocked in Switzerland and another ten in Germany. “We are looking with France and Austria for alternative routes,” said Kormann.

Capacity through the Simplon tunnel in canton Valais is currently restricted because of construction work on the Swiss and Italian sides.

Not unusual

Rockfalls are not unusual in the area, regularly leading to closures of the railway line and the nearby roads. The worst recent accident happened when a bedroom-sized rock came down on the A2 motorway in May 2006, crushing a car heading south and killing its two occupants.

Geologists who had been watching the site said they were surprised by the latest landslide, as well as it size, direction and speed, especially as the cliff had been under constant surveillance.

“We had no way of predicting this latest landslide 30 to 50 metres away
from the previous one,” said Federal Railways Marc Hauser on Wednesday.
“There were no warning signs and no movement of the cliff face.”

Rockfalls should become less of a problem for the railways when the new 57-kilometre Gotthard base tunnel opens in 2016, replacing the current one finished in 1881 and bypassing the danger zone.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Gotthard_train_line_cut_off_for_one_month.html?cid=32846578


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## Momo1435

Another picture of the landslide.









http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panoram...te-Schutzwall-ist-weggebrochen/story/27195023


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## Coccodrillo

> Around 4,000 passengers per day usually travel along the Gotthard line.


Traffic is around 9.000 people per day, and easily up to 15.000 on peak days (like Fridays and Sundays, Summer, bank holidays, ...). To compare, the Lötschberg has around 7.000, the Brenner 5.000, the Simplon 2.500.


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## mgk920

Momo1435 said:


> Another picture of the landslide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panoram...te-Schutzwall-ist-weggebrochen/story/27195023


What's that tunnel-like structure that is just over halfway up the hill?

Mike


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## Momo1435

^^ The scaffolding platform you see was for the work on this hill that was going on to prevent a landslide like this to happen.


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## TheZoolooMaster

^^
According to the geologists, the rock layers below ground were "rotten" and the maintenance probably wouldn't have been able to prevent this from happening. The railway line is now going to be closed for a whole month!


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## webeagle12

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Blast_secures_key_north-south_railway_line.html?cid=32927212

controlled blast


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## K_

webeagle12 said:


> http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Blast_secures_key_north-south_railway_line.html?cid=32927212
> 
> controlled blast


And July 2nd the line supposedly will open again, but the first trains across will be freights. In the mean time SBB is running an extra train pair Zürich - Milano via the Simplon route.


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## KingNick

Brenner Railway closed due to renovations, Gotthard line as well... cargo transport must be clogging somewhere.


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## Momo1435

I see that freight trains have priority when the Brenner on the days it's is open during the renovation. And there will probably more traffic on the Tauern and the Mont Cenis routes. Plus more road traffic, it will be busy on the major alpine roads this summer. Especially in August when the Brenner and the Simplon lines will be closed completely. But the Gotthard should be open again by then, probably running on full capacity with all the extra freight trains.


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## Suburbanist

This weekend I took a holiday trip to the Alps. I drove to Orsieres, and incidentally chose a hotel close to a train station there. 

They had some trains parked there marked as "Saint Bernard Express". Is that railway a tourist-only route? Or is it a regular scheduled rail service?


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## KingNick

Momo1435 said:


> I see that freight trains have priority when the Brenner on the days it's is open during the renovation. And there will probably more traffic on the Tauern and the Mont Cenis routes. Plus more road traffic, it will be busy on the major alpine roads this summer. Especially in August when the Brenner and the Simplon lines will be closed completely. But the Gotthard should be open again by then, probably running on full capacity with all the extra freight trains.


Tauern line faces a lot of traffic right now, yes.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> This weekend I took a holiday trip to the Alps. I drove to Orsieres, and incidentally chose a hotel close to a train station there.
> 
> They had some trains parked there marked as "Saint Bernard Express". Is that railway a tourist-only route? Or is it a regular scheduled rail service?


It's a regular scheduled service. The "Saint Bernard Express" is just marketing.
The company responsible is "RegionAlps", a joint venture of the SBB and the Canton of Valais.


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## Coccodrillo

Local authorities and two railway clubs in Canton Ticino are thinking to build a transport museum and run historic trains on the old Gotthard railway after the opening of the new line. In Biasca there are the unused buildings used before as depots and workshops, while one of the clubs has standard gauge steam and electric locomotives, together with coaches. In the last two years this club has run a couple of Valmorea/Luino (both in Italy)-Zürich/Lucerne steam trains which were successful with around 600 passengers each. With the closure of their railway, also the members of the Mesolcinese railway club may help. On the other side of the Gotthard massif, in Erstfeld, there is also a depot of SBB Historic.


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## Suburbanist

won't they keep the old railway for shuttles like the Loestschberg?


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## steple

There will still be an hourly Interregio service from (Zurich-) Arth-Goldau to Bellinzona (-Locarno/Lugano) via the old line...


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## Suburbanist

^^ Will they give it some silly name like "Great Gotthard Express" to attract tourism? Though the line there is nothing like the Raitschebahn...


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## Vaud

The new Stadler KISS double-deck trains got into service two weeks ago between Genève and Lausanne and soon past Lausanne towards Vevey as a handful of small bridges had to be demolished. 

RTS

in Renens VD the day after their introduction





Although they mostly travel in double composition (674 seats in total).

I have to say they're seriously comfortable, specially compared to the trains they're remplacing, but I will miss being able to open the windows and feel the fresh air


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## Suburbanist

Vaud said:


> I have to say they're seriously comfortable, specially compared to the trains they're remplacing, but I will miss being able to open the windows and feel the fresh air


Open windows is so 1988....

In any case, it is interesting to see Stadler expanding its reach.,


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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> won't they keep the old railway for shuttles like the Loestschberg?


There will be shuttle probably only during the 3+2 months closure of the road tunnel.



steple said:


> There will still be an hourly Interregio service from (Zurich-) Arth-Goldau to Bellinzona (-Locarno/Lugano) via the old line...


Maybe two per hour on peak days, like now.


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> Open windows is so 1988....


I have to agree with you on that: a good air conditioning system is way better than having passengers opening and closing windows as they see fit. And it's more quiet.


> In any case, it is interesting to see Stadler expanding its reach.,


Yes, definitely. Now that they've introduced first double decker trains, who knows what more we can expect from them. Next up, high speed trains?


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## Coccodrillo

Stadler might submit an offer for the 29 trains for international traffic for the SBB, although the bid doesn't require them to be high speed (minimum required speed is 249 km/h, this because starting from 250 km/h the TSI requirements are stricter and more expensive - the bidders are free to propose trains with a higher speed, though).


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## Suburbanist

^^ Maybe Stadler should partner with Ansaldo Breda, which has a lot of spare capacity, and try to get the Italian government throwing some stimulus help to make costs cheaper for exports to CH... all this given AnsaldoBreda is rumored to be looking for some partner on the intercity market to share development costs after no more orders were placed for IC4 and the V250, which hasn't payed its development costs yet.

Or maybe SBB could order some V250 on the cheap and have a fleet of high-speed trains for international services like Milano-Zurich.


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Maybe Stadler should partner with Ansaldo Breda, which has a lot of spare capacity, and try to get the Italian government throwing some stimulus help to make costs cheaper for exports to CH... all this given AnsaldoBreda is rumored to be looking for some partner on the intercity market to share development costs after no more orders were placed for IC4 and the V250, which hasn't payed its development costs yet.


Stadler already partners with AnsaldoBreda on an order for regional EMU's for Italy, based on Stadler's proven products such as the GTW and the FLIRT. 

Then there are rumours about a possible acquisition of AnsaldoBreda by the Japanese Hitachi Rail.



> Or maybe SBB could order some V250 on the cheap and have a fleet of high-speed trains for international services like Milano-Zurich.


Now why on earth would SBB order a batch of trains that still hasn't entered service, over 5 years late??


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## Momo1435

Stadler has recently made it public that it will make an offer for the SBB "high speed trains". 


> Future prospects
> 
> There are two major invitations to tender in Switzerland this year; SBB needs high-speed trains to travel through the new Gotthard base tunnel to Italy, and Zurich Public Transport (VBZ) is buying new trams. Having failed to win the last major order from SBB, these two invitations to tender are very important for Stadler.
> 
> http://www.stadlerrail.com/en/news/2012/06/15/stadler-braves-the-euro-crisis/


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## Coccodrillo

SBB will be extremely careful with the new order, after the Cisalpino disaster.

(although it's not only fault of the ETR 470, in my opinion, they are being used as scapegoat)


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## Suburbanist

^^ The Cisalpino debacle is the result of the Swiss not following up with the originally intended track upgrades and maintenance schedules and facilities.


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## Coccodrillo

Train maintenance was done by Trenitalia, and today the 4 ETR 470 sets owned by the SBB are always* working (with three scheduled to be used daily), while of the 5 sets owned by Trenitalia two are out of use since 12 to 18 months each, while of the remaining three only one a day was used in the last year until mid May, when they were all parked and not used anymore.

*with the exception of this month, as since the beginning of June only one is being used on alternate days


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## Suburbanist

^^ Wasn't the idea for SBB and Trenitalia (Cisalpino) establish a separate maintenance facility for these trains and future (defunct) Cisalpino services just north of Lugano?


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The Cisalpino debacle is the result of the Swiss not following up with the originally intended track upgrades and maintenance schedules and facilities.


Euh. No.

The "intended track upgrades" were performed. The trains could run at their designed speed. The problem was the lack of preventive maintenance in Italy. 

Trains also frequently get vandalized when overnighting in Milano. In no way that is SBB's fault.


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## steple

Some more pics of the Stadler KISS RABe 511 (_Regio-Dosto RVD _in German / _Duplex Régio _in French):














































All photos by Georg Trüb/railpictures.net


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## Suburbanist

Nice pics, but the lack of fences on Swiss railways unsettles me deeply.


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## steple

How about this?










found here: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/2-EPTeKSWN9h18g81izmVg


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## Suburbanist

^^ That is good isolation


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Nice pics, but the lack of fences on Swiss railways unsettles me deeply.


That this unsettles you does not unsettle me in the slightest way ....

You don't need fences around railways. The presence of tracks in itself already signal "don't go there".


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## Momo1435

Suburbanist said:


> Nice pics, but the lack of fences on Swiss railways unsettles me deeply.


Yes we know, no need to repeat yourself over and over again.


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> You don't need fences around railways. The presence of tracks in itself already signal "don't go there".


Very young children might not be familiar with the danger of the tracks.

Moreover, animals can be struck badly.

Not every place yields a sound barrier, but all railways should be fenced to some extent (or physically isolated from its surroundings such that nobody can cross it except on designated passages, more or less like controlled-accessed highways are also segregated)


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## Coccodrillo

steple said:


> How about this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> found here: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/2-EPTeKSWN9h18g81izmVg


I would get depressed if I had to live there...


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## Stainless

Suburbanist said:


> Very young children might not be familiar with the danger of the tracks.
> 
> Moreover, animals can be struck badly.
> 
> Not every place yields a sound barrier, but all railways should be fenced to some extent (or physically isolated from its surroundings such that nobody can cross it except on designated passages, more or less like controlled-accessed highways are also segregated)


Same as any road. Parents have a responsibility to not let children play in dangerous areas. The Swiss have a different approach to health and safety. As a track is obviously a dangerous place, they don't have to fence it, if it was near a built up area or grazing animals, they might.


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> I would get depressed if I had to live there...


That was built even taller than the nearby tracks, probably as noise-reduction measure. They can plant trees to conceal the barrier later...


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## Coccodrillo

That would change nothing...


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## Sunfuns

I would hate to live that close to the railway (or highway), fence or no fence. Probably costs significantly less, though.


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## K_

Sunfuns said:


> I would hate to live that close to the railway (or highway), fence or no fence. Probably costs significantly less, though.


Actually in Switzerland houses near a railways (but not necessary adjacent to it) are often more expensive. This because "near a railway" often includes "near a railway station", and having public transport nearby is valued, so house prices tend to be higher.


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## thun

Frank IBC said:


> Such petit bourgeois worry about "costs".
> 
> Convert the entire route from Montreaux to Luzerne to high-speed, standard-gauge double-track, with a base tunnel under the Brunig Pass, I say.
> 
> :nuts:


:applause:


----------



## earthJoker

Suburbanist said:


> But what about regular passengers (non-tourists) travelling from Interlaken to Luzern? Both are relatively important cities.


The only reason Interlaken is relatively important is tourism. Without it it's just an average village.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> But what about regular passengers (non-tourists) travelling from Interlaken to Luzern? Both are relatively important cities. I know that connections to Zurich are faster via Bern.


There are no regular commuters on Interlaken - Luzern. There is some commuting to Interlaken from as far as Brienz. And there is quite a bit of commuting towards Luzern from as far as Giswil. For that reason there is a half hourly local from Giswil to Luzern, and there is an hourly local from Meiringen to Interlaken. 
Most people who live in the Meiringen area either work in Tourism, or for the KWO, and thus have no need to go to Interlaken or Luzern on a daily basis. And any business they have in a bigger place will more likely be in Interlaken than in Luzern. (As Luzern is in a different Canton...)
The through trains Interlaken - Luzern thus exist mostly for tourists. 

Of course it could be sped up if one were to build an expensive tunnel between Brienz and Giswil, but the benefits would not justify the cost.


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## Benbe

Dear Swiss railway friends,

I'd like to recommend you a few of my photo galleries about the Rhätische Bahn:









The 100 years celebrations of the Chur-Disentis/Mustér line








Ge 4/4Is and 6/6IIs in the Rhine valley








The RhB Stammstrecke and the Landquart depot
​
I hope you're going to like them!
Bence


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## Sunfuns

Vaud said:


> Actually selling tickets online is also subject to fraud; e.g. someone travelling between Lausanne and Genève in an IR train might very well just buy the ticket with his phone when he sees the ticket collector arrive, and that might happen after train has already stopped in Morges and Nyon so he would pay much less if he bought the ticket starting from Nyon and pretending he got on the train there. It's risky, but I'm pretty sure it happens. Ticket collectors can't and don't have such a good memory as to tell you're lying, specially on trains with plenty of passengers where often they just start yelling "passengers who got in the last station please show your tickets! anyone got in the last station?!". BTW on most long-distance trains there are indeed ticket collectors, I'm sure it happens *but I've never travelled on an IC, ICN or IR without getting checked.*


Really? You must not be traveling on trains regularly. I'm commuting to work with IR every day and there is a ticket control ca 30% of the time (on the stretch I use). Of course if you are going very far then it will be very rare not to see a ticket control, but it does happen occasionally. Last time I went to Freiburg from Basel ticket agents totally ignored me (perhaps assumed that I got on in Zurich).


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## Coccodrillo

Benbe said:


> I hope you're going to like them!
> Bence


Certainly - thank you!


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## Spam King

Sunfuns said:


> Really? You must not be traveling on trains regularly. I'm commuting to work with IR every day and there is a ticket control ca 30% of the time (on the stretch I use). Of course if you are going very far then it will be very rare not to see a ticket control, but it does happen occasionally. Last time I went to Freiburg from Basel ticket agents totally ignored me (perhaps assumed that I got on in Zurich).


Ticket check frequencies have gone done in the past few years, or maybe it's just my experience. The past 6-7 times I've taken trains between Zurich Airport and Schaffhausen (and back) I haven't been checked at all. I used to take that route quite often back in 06/07 and I was checked every single time!


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## K_

Spam King said:


> Ticket check frequencies have gone done in the past few years, or maybe it's just my experience. The past 6-7 times I've taken trains between Zurich Airport and Schaffhausen (and back) I haven't been checked at all. I used to take that route quite often back in 06/07 and I was checked every single time!


Depends on the trains you take of course. The direct Zürich Airport - Schaffhausen train is an S-Bahn, and that train only has one staff member on board, and he (or she) is busy operating the train.

Between Zürich and Bern I always get checked...


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## Coccodrillo

Malfunctioning mechanical indicators can sometimes produce funny advices. This one show a train cancellation on the first line, and the town of Laufen (which has a double meaning in German) on the second line.

The result is a funny "train cancelled - walk" :lol:


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## Suburbanist

How much subsidy the whole Visp-Andermatt-Chur rail link requires annually? Does someone have figures? I know the route is actually comprised of a handful different private rail companies. Do they pay for themselves?

Actually, a more general question: how are Swiss private smaller railways compensated for allowing passengers on SBB passes or subscriptions, discounts etc?


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> How much subsidy the whole Visp-Andermatt-Chur rail link requires annually? Does someone have figures? I know the route is actually comprised of a handful different private rail companies. Do they pay for themselves?


The ownership of most private railways is usually a mixture of private and public investors (mostly towns and cantons, and the federation). They get subsidies based on contracts with the cantons and the federation.



> Actually, a more general question: how are Swiss private smaller railways compensated for allowing passengers on SBB passes or subscriptions, discounts etc?


Statistics. A few times a year groups of data collectors equipped with portable computers are send out, and ask everyone on the train what their origin and destination is.
Based on that it is estimated how many passengers with passes travel on a particular network, and the companies get compensated.
In other cases the companies just get paid for running trains by an umbrella organization that collects the fares, like the ZVV around Zürich.


----------



## Vaud

Suburbanist said:


> In any case, since ticket machines are ubiquitous, I see no reason for giving the option to buy tickets on-board, especially if SBB itself claims to be losing tens of millions of francs.
> 
> Since its network is vast, maybe they should change towards a national transportation RFID card model, like the Netherlands (regardless of the whole issue or gating or not gating stations, which is separate from the issue of using RFID cards). RFID cards could become compulsory for use in any purely domestic journey.


Actually the CFF are already thinking about it. I remember reading some months ago they were going to start using the system in Lucerne to test it there before implementing it everywhere; I've searched for that article but haven't been able to find it again unfortunately. 

However there is a vague reference in this article from today 



> Le billet à puce électronique en cours d'élaboration permettra-t-il d'équilibrer ces dépenses? «Le but serait de pouvoir équiper tous les titres de transport d'une puce électronique afin d'adapter les prix à la consommation réelle des usagers», relève Ulrich Gygi.
> 
> Mais le projet reste une musique d'avenir puisque les CFF doivent concilier avec un réseau complexe de 170 entreprises de transport et que le concept «nécessite des centaines de millions de francs d'investissements pour équiper électroniquement les wagons et les gares.»


The president of the CFF says using the electronic ticket is still an objective for them, but the journalist adds this is in the limbo given that there's 170 different transport companies and that it would require hundreds of millions of francs in investments to fit the coaches and stations. 



Sunfuns said:


> Really? You must not be traveling on trains regularly. I'm commuting to work with IR every day and there is a ticket control ca 30% of the time (on the stretch I use). Of course if you are going very far then it will be very rare not to see a ticket control, but it does happen occasionally. Last time I went to Freiburg from Basel ticket agents totally ignored me (perhaps assumed that I got on in Zurich).


Well that happens to me in the RegioExpress I commute with everyday (getting checked once every while), I dunno why's there such a different policy on ticket controllers, maybe it depends on the number of passengers or average fines per train, who knows.


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## Coccodrillo

The SBB have ordered 8 additional ETR 610, apparently they are part of the around 20 options included in the contract signed by Cisalpino. They will be identical to the existing 14 sets (7 used by SBB, 7 used by Trenitalia) and will be used on the Gotthard line (I hope SBB will increase the number of trips, as the ETR 610 have 50 less seats compared to the ETR 470 which run with standing passengers on peak days due to insufficient capacity).


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> The SBB have ordered 8 additional ETR 610, apparently they are part of the around 20 options included in the contract signed by Cisalpino. They will be identical to the existing 14 sets (7 used by SBB, 7 used by Trenitalia) and will be used on the Gotthard line (I hope SBB will increase the number of trips, as the ETR 610 have 50 less seats compared to the ETR 470 which run with standing passengers on peak days due to insufficient capacity).


The ETR610 can run coupled, so that should increase capacity quite significantly. (And how come there are standing passengers on the ETR470's when each one of them has a relief train following it...)

I wonder what SBB will do with these trains once the Gotthard base tunnel opens and the new international trainsets SBB intends to buy will start running. I think those sets would be quite suitable to upgrade the Brussel - Strasbourg - Basel service.


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## Momo1435

Press release from Alstom.


> *Alstom will supply 8 additional New Pendolino trains to SBB, the Swiss federal railway operator*
> 
> Alstom has been awarded an order from the Swiss federal railway operator, SBB, to supply 8 additional New Pendolino high speed trains that will be added to the existing fleet of 7 trains already owned by SBB. This order, worth around €200 million, is an option of the contract signed in March 2004 between Alstom and Cisalpino, the former joint venture of Trenitalia (Italian railway operator) and SBB. The delivery of the new trains is scheduled for 2015.
> 
> SBB will operate the new trains on the lines between Milan and Geneva and between Milan and Zurich.
> http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/...ns-to-sbb-the-swiss-federal-railway-operator/


Interestingly there was also a press release from the SBB in German, but that seems to have been deleted.

There's only a press release in Italian.
http://www.ffs.ch/gruppo/media/comunicati-stampa.newsdetail.2012-8-0208_45_3.html

That has some interesting info, the ETR 470 will be used until late 2014. This confirms what we already know and rules out the possibility that they will be taken out of service earlier.

Another interesting quote from the article is that the sets can also be used for domestic services. That might be hint a hint for future use of the trains. 

But since they are also approved to run in Germany they could also be option for the trains to Stuttgart and München. Both are routes where the tilting could be used.


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## Coccodrillo

> The ETR610 can run coupled, so that should increase capacity quite significantly.


Apparently FS/RFI/Trenitalia (it's the same thing...) doesn't want two ETR 610 in multiple at Milano Centrale so as to save the "few" long platforms it has.



> (And how come there are standing passengers on the ETR470's when each one of them has a relief train following it...)


Both the ETR 470 and the relief "ICN" train are sometimes full. If not with standing passengers, on Fridays/Sundays the 470s can quite easily be 80%-90% full (470 seats), with the relief trains also well used (another 400-600 people).

(although relief trains run also on off-peak times because of chronic delays of EC CIS trains - usually made with ETR 470)


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Apparently FS/RFI/Trenitalia (it's the same thing...) doesn't want two ETR 610 in multiple at Milano Centrale so as to save the "few" long platforms it has.


So you drop one set in Chiasso...

But I find the lengths RFI is willing to go to increase even further the under utilisation of Milano Centrale baffling.


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## Coccodrillo

Trenitalia loves international trains so much that EC trains between Milano and Domodossola are often if not only composed by couchette/sleeping cars with beds closed, some sets with just 4 (second class) coaches, instead of the 7 coaches of an ETR 610, or the dozen of coaches on trains of some years ago.

From 13th August until 2nd September the line between Domodossola and Iselle (just before the Simplon tunnel) is closed because of urgent works (caused by lack of maintenance by RFI) so the ETR 610 aren't used between Milano and Domodossola (maybe they are between Iselle and Geneva or Basel).


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## Suburbanist

...


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## Coccodrillo

Loading ramp for narrow gauge trains on standard gauge flat cars (usually it's the opposite): https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Ins&h...7nOse6UfKh83m0LFUkwZvw&cbp=12,168.59,,1,20.02


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## Suburbanist

St. Bernard Express train terminal at Orsières. It's just a catchy name, there is no rail line over the St. Bernard pass, just a road pass and a road tunnel.


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## Vaud

The works on the CEVA keep moving forward. The construction of one of the stations is forcing the closure of two lines of Geneva's ring highway, they'll open the other two for commuters during the morning, leave 1+1 for the rest of the day, and open two lanes for the evening, here: google maps press release


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## FM 2258

^^ 

Very beautiful setting.


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## Coccodrillo

Yesterday for the first time in 31 years a Glacier Express ran from St Moritz to Zermatt via the Furka summit route. Until the opening of the Furka base tunnel the summit route was electrified, but as the overhead line had to be removed every winter, when this line was reopened it was not electrified again. MGB owns two powerful diesel rack locomotives (the one in the photos, last two links), one without rack for works in the base tunnel (originally built as standard gauge) and some diesel shunters. Beside that, it owns various electric locomotives, EMUs and hauled stock.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Swiss...es/Swiss-Alps-Classic-Express/173888389288134

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...20248.173888389288134&type=1&relevant_count=4

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...9580.120248.173888389288134&type=1&permPage=1

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/3688_488072577869712_705941221_n.jpg


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## steple

Information about the cross-city project in Zürich, Durchmesserlinie

The line has 4 sections: from Altstetten to Zürich HB, the new low-level through station called "Bahnhof Löwenstrasse", the Weinberg tunnel and the connection in Oerlikon










first section:

Letzigrabenbrücke



















second section:

Bahnhof Löwenstrasse




























third section:

Weinbergtunnel










fourth section:

Oerlikon









































































source: facebook page of the Durchmesserlinie, http://www.facebook.com/#!/durchmesserlinie


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## Momo1435

It all looks nice and clean, very Swiss.


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## steple

construction works on the first section:


















































































source: http://www.facebook.com/durchmesserlinie


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## steple

the new Löwenstrasse station

















































































































































from http://www.facebook.com/durchmesserlinie


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## steple

third section: the Weinberg tunnel





















































































































































































from http://www.facebook.com/durchmesserlinie


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## steple

section 4: Oerlikon


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## thun

Incredible cool pictures!


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## TedStriker

^^

I have to agree, those photos are some of the best construction porn I've seen so far on SSC.


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## earthJoker

The construction of the flying junction at Hürlistein is half way finished, it will open in 2013 and improve capacity towards Effretikon, Pfäffikon and Winterthur.

http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/zuerich/stadt_region/gewichtige-entflechtung-im-huerlistein-1.17593624


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## gramercy

awesome update & project


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## Suburbanist

Interesting/unusual deploy of a highline there.


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## steple

More pictures from http://www.facebook.com/durchmesserlinie


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## steple

Some plans in the Basel area:

Liestal (line Basel - Olten - Zurich/Bern/Luzern)










Pratteln (line Basel - Brugg - Zurich/Gotthard)


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## steple

Construction plans of the Löwenstrasse station in Zurich:























































source: http://duerig.blogspot.de/2011/02/baustelle-bahnhof-lowenstrasse-zurich.html


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## dimlys1994

Does these platforms long enough to accomodate high-speed train (like ICE)?


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## Coccodrillo

Yes. It is planned that many IC trains will stop there, formed of up to 14 coaches (400 m, like two ICE3 coupled and more than an Eurostar).


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Yes. It is planned that many IC trains will stop there, formed of up to 14 coaches (400 m, like two ICE3 coupled and more than an Eurostar).


Up to 16 coaches in fact. The new IC doubledecker trainsets SBB ordered come in two lengths: 8 coaches (200m) and 4 coaches (100m).


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## gramercy

i love these kinds of drawings


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## K_

gramercy said:


> i love these kinds of drawings


SBB published a book about Bern Railway station full with that kind of drawings, showing the evolution of the station right from the beginning to the present. A fascinating book, and I hope they publish one for Zürich too once the works there are finished.


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## Coccodrillo

Train EC 14 will continue to arrive with a delay of 38 minutes every day also in 2013: http://www.progetto-orario.ch/fileadmin/fap_pdf/2013/600.pdf


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## StuZealand

Did anyone from here attend the AlpTransit open day at Sigirino on Sat 29th?


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## Coccodrillo

^^ I did, I will post some photos later in the AlpTransit thread.



Coccodrillo said:


> Train EC 14 will continue to arrive with a delay of 38 minutes every day also in 2013: http://www.progetto-orario.ch/fileadmin/fap_pdf/2013/600.pdf


Here are the delays of this train in the last month. "Picco" denotes when the delay at some point during the trip was higher than the delay on arrival. Today's train is not on time, it is just that at the moment this train is still in Italy and this website didn't manage to record its run.

The website recorded delays of this train in the last 297 days, which arrived lat on 278 days and was cancelled on 47 days, with an average delay of 35 minutes. These statistics are not exacts though, as in June the Gotthard railway has been closed for a month so these days should not be considered here.

EC 14 is booked to be operated by a Pendolino tilting train, but as Trenitalia don't make maintenance on them (3 out of 5 are abandoned in its depot since one year, used as a diversion for vandals), this train is run with conventional coaches with a locomotive change at the border. The train is thus 20 minutes slower, but as it loses its entry slots in Arth Goldau, Zug and Zürich HB, it has to wait to enter them and receives an additional 20 minutes delay. Most of other trains average between 20 and 40 minutes delays.

Source Cessoalpino.com: http://www.cessoalpino.com/en/


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## steple

I found a cool video of the construction works in Oerlikon:


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## dimlys1994

Have you got any information of Rosshausern Tunnel (blueprints, usage, max speed in tunnel and construction dates)?


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## Coccodrillo

Something in English can be found here: http://www.bls.ch/e/infrastruktur/bauprojekte-rosshaeusern.php

Max speed 160 km/h, length 2 km, double track, opening by the end of 2016. It will be used mainly by local trains (fast and local), and a few international trains (currently 1 TGV to Paris and 1 RegioExpress to Frasne in France). It replaces the existing 1 km tunnel, which is single track and in need of refurbishment.

In the German and French versions of the BLS website there are more informations, but it is not a technically interesting project, nor it has international or national importance, it is mainly for local traffic. Actually I'm wondered that someone outside the region and/or not fan of Swiss railways knows its existence  










Aufhebung bestehende Strecke = demolition of the existing line
Notausstieg = emergency exit (via a shaft)
Bahnhofausbau Rosshäusern = upgrade of Rosshäusern railway station
Richtung = direction
Zustandserhaltung bestehender Tunnel = I don't understand clearly, it sounds like "maintaining the tunnel as it is"


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## Sunfuns

I've lived in Basel for a few years now, but didn't know about the existence of this project either... hno:


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## steple

dimlys1994 said:


> Have you got any information of Rosshausern Tunnel (blueprints, usage, max speed in tunnel and construction dates)?


Even if you don't understand the language, you can get your information in some pictures and graphics here:

http://www.bls.ch/data/medien/Projektinfo_1_Mai_2009.pdf


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## dimlys1994

Thanks for information. I'm glad to hear that. But there is one more question: how many similar tunnels across the route between Bern and Neuchatel and is that possible to upgrade them for double-track?


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## Coccodrillo

The tunnels on the BN line (so called from the company who built it) are:

Donnerbühl, 400m, two tracks, under part of Bern yard tracks
Rosshäusern, 1103/2080, one/two tracks (old/new)
Faverwald, 430 m, single track
Oberfeld, 300 m, single track
Marin, 55 m, single track
Champ-réveyres, 160 m, single track

Six tunnel totalling 3425 m on a 43 km railway. There are no plans to replace them or build new parallel tubes to double track the whole line, but some parts totalling around 23 km of that line are being doubled (where the timetable requires it).


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## StuZealand

^^

Where, in your opinion, are the worst bottlenecks on the SBB network that would most benefit from double tracking?


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Zustandserhaltung bestehender Tunnel = I don't understand clearly, it sounds like "maintaining the tunnel as it is"


It means I think that the tunnel will be preserved, ie, maintained to a level sufficient to prevent it from collapsing.


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## K_

StuZealand said:


> ^^
> 
> Where, in your opinion, are the worst bottlenecks on the SBB network that would most benefit from double tracking?


Generally speaking the Swiss Railways expand the infrastructure with the timetable in mind. With a strict interval timetable trains always meet at the same points on the line, and that is where you then build passing loops. In normal operation trains rarely have to wait for oncoming trains. SBB so manages to sometimes have quite high levels of traffic even on single lines (But TSOL is the champion here, with 5 minute headways both ways on it's single tracked Lausanne - Renens line...)
Double tracking is thus usually done with a view of future expansion, not solving existing bottlenecks. The infrastructure on the current Bern - Neuchâtel line is sufficient for the current timetable, but the canton of Bern wants to expand the schedule, with 4 tph on Bern - Neuchâtel (two all stops, and two limited stop services) and 6 tph on the Bern - Brünnen (two extra all stop trains). 
For that the line has been double tracked all the way to Rosshäusern, and that will be now extended with the double track tunnel.
Now other Cantons have their wishes too. They want to run up to two tph between Fribourg and Neuchâtel, which means that the western end of the line must handle 6 tph in the future too. For that the line is double tracked between Ins and Zihlbrücke.

There are however a few "bottlenecks" that would benefit from quadrupling though. It is planned to install four tracks throughout on Zürich - Olten, and two additional tracks also on Zürich - Winterthur.


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## Coccodrillo

There are many bottlenecks where something will have to be done to increase services.

Around Lausanne and Geneva, between Zürich and Olten, Basel and Olten, Zürich and Luzern, then south of Neuchâtel (line to la Chaux de Fonds) and south of Bellinzona, on the single track lines in Ticino, south of Biel-Bienne (there is a short single track section with 250 trains per day), and more.

For all of them them there is a project to increase capacity, but the more expensive ones are not to be realized soon. Most are federal projects, but some (like the new Neuchâtel-La Chaux de Fonds line) are cantonal projects. Actually I wonder why building that new line is considered a project of cantonal interest (with some money coming from the federal fund for urban transport), while doubling* of the Bellinzona-Locarno line will be financed by the federal government.

*except for the tunnel and section near Locarno, which will remain single track


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## dimlys1994

About BN line it's all clear - thanks for everyone!


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## steple

New photos from Zurich:









































































source: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/durchmesserlinie


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## Vaud

Coccodrillo said:


> Most are federal projects, but some (like the new Neuchâtel-La Chaux de Fonds line) are cantonal projects.


Well, as a mather of fact the Transrun project was rejected by 329 votes difference (50,3% against it), so no new Neuchâtel - La Tchaux line... hno:


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## Momo1435

Time lapse at Killwangen-Spreitenbach
.


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## Vaud

^^ at 7'43'' one can spot the Pau Casals train Zurich-Geneva-Barcelone, unfortunately the service has just been suspended and no longer trains directly link Switzerland with the catalan capital


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## SteveAWOL

A nice look at the Swiss railways on BBC Two - Great Continental Railway Journeys last week:


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## K_

Vaud said:


> ^^ at 7'43'' one can spot the Pau Casals train Zurich-Geneva-Barcelone, unfortunately the service has just been suspended and no longer trains directly link Switzerland with the catalan capital


This is only temporary though. Normally from April on the TGV from Geneva to Montpelier will be extended to Figueres, and as soon as the Spaniards managed to lay that last 700m of track it will be extended all the way to Barcelona and possibly even Madrid.


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## Vaud

K_ said:


> This is only temporary though. Normally from April on the TGV from Geneva to Montpelier will be extended to Figueres, and as soon as the Spaniards managed to lay that last 700m of track it will be extended all the way to Barcelona and possibly even Madrid.


Even better than that, I think from April already services will be extended to Barcelona even though the new station won't yet be ready, as the tunnel crossing the city will all be ready so they'll be using the old Sants train station as terminal. But I'll still cry the loss of one more night train.



SteveAWOL said:


> A nice look at the Swiss railways on BBC Two - Great Continental Railway Journeys last week:


Thanks a lot for sharing! It was a pity they didn't do the train trip along Lavaux approaching to Lausanne from Fribourg, I think the guy would have had an orgasm


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## Suburbanist

Vaud said:


> Even better than that, I think from April already services will be extended to Barcelona even though the new station won't yet be ready, as the tunnel crossing the city will all be ready so they'll be using the old Sants train station as terminal. But I'll still cry the loss of one more night train.


If Switzerland had invested on more high-speed lines within its territory, its passengers would enjoy very fast trips to other countries. But since it didn't, it will still take more time to travel between Geneve and Innsbruck than between Paris and Barcelona when the new line is opened, if I'm not mistaken.


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## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> If Switzerland had invested on more high-speed lines within its territory, its passengers would enjoy very fast trips to other countries. But since it didn't, it will still take more time to travel between Geneve and Innsbruck than between Paris and Barcelona when the new line is opened, if I'm not mistaken.


That's an entirely improper comparison - Geneva and Innsbruck together is 1/20th of size of Paris + Barcelona. There would be little demand for such an unusual journey regardless of price and time. 

Swiss train system is excellent with investment going into frequency, reliability and good connections not greater speed (which is about on par with driving on most major routes). French rail, for example, is much faster but it's as convenient only if you don't need any connections and preferably in the direction of Paris.


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## Vaud

Suburbanist said:


> If Switzerland had invested on more high-speed lines within its territory, its passengers would enjoy very fast trips to other countries. But since it didn't, it will still take more time to travel between Geneve and Innsbruck than between Paris and Barcelona when the new line is opened, if I'm not mistaken.


It doesn't make much sense to have HSR in Switzerland since the whole Swiss train system is mostly based on connections which is why it enjoys high ridership levels, not counting the fact that population and centers are all much better distributed than in France or Spain.

But what applies to Switzerland does not apply to the rest, and given your statement I guess you are aware that Switzerland does invest in HSR outside its borders so that for example Geneva is linked to Paris by HSR.


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## Suburbanist

Vaud said:


> But what applies to Switzerland does not apply to the rest, and given your statement I guess you are aware that Switzerland does invest in HSR outside its borders so that for example Geneva is linked to Paris by HSR.


Yes, but it is quite insane they invest on that French line connection, while not investing on a 300km/h line between two of its major cities, Geneve and Zurich, that could be connected with some service taking less than 75 min

(sorry for lack of accents)


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> If Switzerland had invested on more high-speed lines within its territory, its passengers would enjoy very fast trips to other countries. But since it didn't, it will still take more time to travel between Geneve and Innsbruck than between Paris and Barcelona when the new line is opened, if I'm not mistaken.


What the Swiss are also right now enjoying are unemployment levels far lower than in Spain or France, a balanced budget, low taxes and a well functioning state. I don't think the citizens would be willing to give that up for faster trains...

Building a HSL the length of the Alps would basically be a horrendously expensive exercise, with relatively few benefits.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Yes, but it is quite insane they invest on that French line connection, while not investing on a 300km/h line between two of its major cities, Geneve and Zurich, that could be connected with some service taking less than 75 min


Building a 300kph line from Géneve to Zürich would cost a tremendous amount of money. I think that the inhabitants of Géneve and Lausanne would rather see that money spend in making the Genéve - Lausanne four tracks and running more trains on that. And I don't think you could get travel time down to 75 minutes while still calling at Lausanne and Bern (and you wouldn't be able to fill a train if you didn't stop in those places...)


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> Building a 300kph line from Géneve to Zürich would cost a tremendous amount of money. I think that the inhabitants of Géneve and Lausanne would rather see that money spend in making the Genéve - Lausanne four tracks and running more trains on that. And I don't think you could get travel time down to 75 minutes while still calling at Lausanne and Bern (and you wouldn't be able to fill a train if you didn't stop in those places...)


If Genève and Zürich became commuting areas of each other, you could probably fill a lot of trains. At least some 20 trains a day per direction. You could then have some trains stopping in Bern (but not Lausanne). 

As for the argument of investing on local services vs. national services, it is an old trick that doesn't fly (at least with me): the mobility of people living around Lac Léman will not improve by having a crap 2h40 long connection between Genève-Zürich (a travel time that makes it difficult even to live in a city and work just 2/3 times a day in other, for instance). Gosh, you could even make the argument (as many people sometimes do, in a naive fashion) that inter-city non-commuting transportation should always have less priority than trams, local trains and subways that cater for much more people on a daily basis... 

Even commuting daily Bern-Genève today seems a bit long for daily commute, despite their relatively short distance. Apparently the policy of making the "triangle" Bern-Basel-Zürich a common multi-centered big metropolis with plenty of traffic in all directions doesn't apply to Western parts of the country... 

This is of course assuming the paradigm the Swiss set for themselves of making rail travel something that should be available nationally.


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## Vaud

^^ Well, I do agree with you on saying that Western Switzerland is not getting enough investments, we can quote the fact that it got "_7% of rail investments over the 25 last years_" [1] when it hosts 25% of the population and economy of the country. It recently managed to get a compromise for new investments but only after huge lobbying efforts from Vaud and Genève and after agreeing with East-Switzerland cantons to also do some investments there. People is actually getting a bit pissed off in here about this topic actually since the Gotthard and Bern-Zurich axes get disproportionately huge investments with relatively few problems.

But as K_ said people in here would rather see 4 tracks between Lausanne and Genève with faster trains and more frequencies than a HSR between Genève and Zurich that would serve few people in comparison. Improving West-East connections is also necessary and that's why recently the long-term projects included the improvement of the line in Fribourg, but it's definitely not a priority to do anything other than that. As for your proposal for a high speed train service that wouldn't call in Lausanne and Bern... it denotes some ignorance on the topic, honestly, because that's where most passangers would probably hop on and off.


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## Vaud

The canton of Geneva is in advanced planning for a new mostly subterranean line that would link the enlarged Gare Cornavin with the airport through the UN area and then Meyrin and Zimeysa to link with the existing La Plaine line.

That would allow trains from the new CEVA line coming from Annemasse to link directly with the airport station for which new platforms underneath the existing ones would be built, without having to change trains.

When finished basically 80 to 90% of jobs from the canton would be served by train stations located in less than 1.5km distance. Total cost of the project is estimated at CHF2bn and not going to be finished before 2030.

I transcribed the article appearing today in the local press in here: post

And here are some two maps I got to show where exactly would it go through (the blue line, "raquette"):

Et deux cartes du projet d'agglo:


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## Sunfuns

Suburbanist maybe doesn't realize it, but Switzerland is quite divided by language. A bit like Belgium but with significantly better relations. Therefore there is much less traffic between Zurich and Geneva than one would ordinarily expect between #1 and #2 cities of the country. Certainly nothing like Zurich-Bern and Geneva-Lausanne which are two most heavily used routes in Switzerland. 

I've taken a train from Basel to Lausanne or Geneva couple time. It stops in several places in both German and French speaking areas an between stations where the language border is crossed the train is always significantly less full. Almost like crossing the border with France itself.


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## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> Suburbanist maybe doesn't realize it, but Switzerland is quite divided by language.


The comparison with Belgium is not appropriate in either linguistic quagmires or rail connections.

Well, Ticino is not well connected to the rest of Switzerland, but that is for strictly natural factors and an unwillingness of the Federal Government to build a Tshuis-Bellizona or St. Moritz-Belizona rail line. 

The other linguistic areas are well connected. Moreover, Switzerland for all matters have a dominant language groups, one big minority, one small minority and one oddity. It's not like Belgium at all where the split is 52-43-4


----------



## Suburbanist

Another question: have those works on the Martigny - Chamonix line been completed? Will the line re-open for this winter season?


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## Vaud

Suburbanist said:


> The other linguistic areas are well connected. Moreover, Switzerland for all matters have a dominant language groups, one big minority, one small minority and one oddity. It's not like Belgium at all where the split is 52-43-4


What he actually means is that your proposal of improving the rail and building HSR between Genève - Lausanne - Bern so that there could be more commuters between cities is a bit pointless since people commute from Lausanne to Genève and viceversa and between Zürich and Bern, but since people in Bern speak german and people in Genève speak french, those from Genève look for jobs mostly in french-speaking Switzerland and those in Bern in german-speaking Switzerland, so relationships between both sides are lower than one would expect from an otherwise unified country, i.e. having few commuters is not a matter of having better rail connections, it's something almost unavoidable, and that's why people care more for the line Genève - Nyon - Gland - Rolle - Morges - Lausanne - Vevey - Montreux or even rail connections of Genève with neighbouring France but not so much about Fribourg - Bern.


----------



## Sunfuns

Vaud said:


> What he actually means is that your proposal of improving the rail and building HSR between Genève - Lausanne - Bern so that there could be more commuters between cities is a bit pointless since people commute from Lausanne to Genève and viceversa and between Zürich and Bern, but since people in Bern speak german and people in Genève speak french, those from Genève look for jobs mostly in french-speaking Switzerland and those in Bern in german-speaking Switzerland, so relationships between both sides are lower than one would expect from an otherwise unified country, i.e. having few commuters is not a matter of having better rail connections, it's something almost unavoidable, and that's why people care more for the line Genève - Nyon - Gland - Rolle - Morges - Lausanne - Vevey - Montreux or even rail connections of Genève with neighbouring France but not so much about Fribourg - Bern.


Exactly. I thought I explained it clearly enough...


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## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> The other linguistic areas are well connected. Moreover, Switzerland for all matters have a dominant language groups, one big minority, one small minority and one oddity. It's not like Belgium at all where the split is 52-43-4


That would be the case only if the distribution were homogenous. French speaking areas are certainly not German dominated. If you don't believe me go to Geneva and try to get by with German. You'd be much better off with English.


----------



## flierfy

Vaud said:


> It doesn't make much sense to have HSR in Switzerland since the whole Swiss train system is mostly based on connections which is why it enjoys high ridership levels, not counting the fact that population and centers are all much better distributed than in France or Spain.
> 
> But what applies to Switzerland does not apply to the rest, and given your statement I guess you are aware that Switzerland does invest in HSR outside its borders so that for example Geneva is linked to Paris by HSR.


This approach is extremely selfish. Countries around CH built modern rail lines to speed up journeys also for the Swiss. Yet, Switzerland invest only in infrastructure which benefits its own people. Switzerland could very well pave the way for a fast rail link between Frankfurt/M and Milano.


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## K_

Vaud said:


> The canton of Geneva is in advanced planning for a new mostly subterranean line that would link the enlarged Gare Cornavin with the airport through the UN area and then Meyrin and Zimeysa to link with the existing La Plaine line.
> 
> That would allow trains from the new CEVA line coming from Annemasse to link directly with the airport station for which new platforms underneath the existing ones would be built, without having to change trains.


That looks like a very interesting, and useful project. But if the idea is to build an underground addition to existing Cornavin, would it not be better to already start doing that now, in stead of enlarging the station?

Trains directly to the airport from the French Alps will be possible as soon as CEVA is finished. I don't know if any are planned though.


----------



## K_

flierfy said:


> This approach is extremely selfish. Countries around CH built modern rail lines to speed up journeys also for the Swiss. Yet, Switzerland invest only in infrastructure which benefits its own people. Switzerland could very well pave the way for a fast rail link between Frankfurt/M and Milano.


Are you trying to outdo Suburbanist in displaying your ignorance here?


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> If Genève and Zürich became commuting areas of each other, you could probably fill a lot of trains.


For that you'd have to reduce the time to under an hour. 75 minutes is outside of commuting distance.



> At least some 20 trains a day per direction. You could then have some trains stopping in Bern (but not Lausanne).


There are already the many trains per day per direction. But 20 trains is not sufficient to justify a dedicated 300+ line economically. If you want to pay back your infrastructure from revenue you need something like 10 trains per hour...



> As for the argument of investing on local services vs. national services, it is an old trick that doesn't fly (at least with me): the mobility of people living around Lac Léman will not improve by having a crap 2h40 long connection between Genève-Zürich (a travel time that makes it difficult even to live in a city and work just 2/3 times a day in other, for instance). Gosh, you could even make the argument (as many people sometimes do, in a naive fashion) that inter-city non-commuting transportation should always have less priority than trams, local trains and subways that cater for much more people on a daily basis...


This has nothing to do with tricks. It has everything with spending the tax payers' money in accordance with the tax payers' wishes...



> Even commuting daily Bern-Genève today seems a bit long for daily commute, despite their relatively short distance. Apparently the policy of making the "triangle" Bern-Basel-Zürich a common multi-centered big metropolis with plenty of traffic in all directions doesn't apply to Western parts of the country...


In the case of the Bern - Basel - Zürich triangle the aim was never to bring them within commuting distance. Basel - Zürich has been under an hour for quite some time. The new line from Bern to Olten was built so that the whole nationwide timetable would fit better together, which made travel faster for almost everyone.
Anyway, there is not need to bring Geneva (or Lausanne) closer to Bern. The Swiss Federal Government has satellite offices in Lausanne so it can recruit people in the Arc Lémanique. Bringing the work closer to people is more efficient than bringing the people closer to the work...



> This is of course assuming the paradigm the Swiss set for themselves of making rail travel something that should be available nationally.


And the results they get seem to indicate they are doing something right, not?


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## K_

Today the new timetable starts in Switzerland (and in many other European countries). SMA always makes a nice graphical overview, that shows well how the network functions. You can download this network/timetable graph here:
http://www.sma-partner.ch/images/stories/RokDownloads/Netzgrafiken/de/NGCH_2013.pdf


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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Another question: have those works on the Martigny - Chamonix line been completed? Will the line re-open for this winter season?


No, it will not (on the French side).



Sunfuns said:


> Suburbanist maybe doesn't realize it, but Switzerland is quite divided by language. A bit like Belgium but with significantly better relations. Therefore there is much less traffic between Zurich and Geneva than one would ordinarily expect between #1 and #2 cities of the country. Certainly nothing like Zurich-Bern and Geneva-Lausanne which are two most heavily used routes in Switzerland.
> 
> I've taken a train from Basel to Lausanne or Geneva couple time. It stops in several places in both German and French speaking areas an between stations where the language border is crossed the train is always significantly less full. Almost like crossing the border with France itself.


It has already been said why trains have to stop in both Lausanne and Bern, so I want just to add that traffic between different language groups is higher than across language borders that are also state borders elsewhere in Europe (beside the bilingual cities/towns/villages of Biel-Bienne, Murten-Morat, Fribourg-Freiburg, the Engadine agglomeration and so on).

A 30 minutes headway between InterCity trains is already offered or is planned within 10~15 years even across the röstigraben/polentagraben (German-French and German-Italian language borders).



Suburbanist said:


> The other linguistic areas are well connected. Moreover, Switzerland for all matters have a dominant language groups, one big minority, one small minority and one oddity. It's not like Belgium at all where the split is 52-43-4


Romansh is not an oddity but a richness. A bilingual or monolingual Switzerland wouldn't be Switzerland


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## Vaud

K_ said:


> That looks like a very interesting, and useful project. But if the idea is to build an underground addition to existing Cornavin, would it not be better to already start doing that now, in stead of enlarging the station?


No no, the additional platforms would be added under the already underground station of the airport, Cornavin wouldn't be affected.


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## Vaud

As K_ mentions today the new schedules have been introduced, and with it the biggest change in eastern Switzerland since rail 2000, with 50% of the trains having changed their departure times.

Some of the changes are:

From now on there'll be RegioExpress Genève-Lausanne every 30', one each per hour continuing to Romont or Vevey, with newer faster 2-deck trains.

The offer of trains from Valais to Genève has also increased and trains are 11' faster to reach Geneva.

Regional trains in Fribourg and Valais have also increased their frequencies to the 30'

New services from Lausanne to Romont and Palézieux (both in canton Fribourg) have also been introduced. 

The suburban network of Lausanne has also been affected with the introduction of several new services and increased frequencies.

In canton Neuchâtel 30' services have also been introduced between Neuchâtel and Fleurier.

New relations between Neuchâtel - Yverdon-les-Bains - Morges have been introduced as well as Genève.


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## flierfy

K_ said:


> Are you trying to outdo Suburbanist in displaying your ignorance here?


If you can't keep up with the discussion intellectually then just do this forum the honour and leave. Your arrogance is no grace and this forum would do very well without.


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## Vaud

flierfy said:


> If you can't keep up with the discussion intellectually then just do this forum the honour and leave. Your arrogance is no grace and this forum would do very well without.


To be honest I was about to say the same as him. Do a favour to everybody and check for example who's building the longest rail tunnel in the world and for what purpose.


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## flierfy

Vaud said:


> Do a favour to everybody and check for example who's building the longest rail tunnel in the world and for what purpose.


It's been built to improve transport links from the Swiss Mittelland to the Tecino and further on to the Italian ports. The project is beneficial almost entirely for Switzerland only as Germany and Italy would be vastly better off with an additional tubes of the Gotthard road tunnel instead.


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## XAN_

flierfy said:


> It's been built to improve transport links from the Swiss Mittelland to the Tecino and further on to the Italian ports. The project is beneficial almost entirely for Switzerland only as Germany and Italy would be vastly better off with an additional tubes of the Gotthard road tunnel instead.


 Well, the shift from oil as prime energy source to other energy sources will be in our lifetime, and alternative power sources are more favourable and effective in case of bigger motors, so mass investing in motorway capacity are not wise thing to do...


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## flierfy

XAN_ said:


> Well, the shift from oil as prime energy source to other energy sources will be in our lifetime, and alternative power sources are more favourable and effective in case of bigger motors, so mass investing in motorway capacity are not wise thing to do...


Road vehicles are not necessarily powered by fossil fuels.


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## aleander

flierfy said:


> Road vehicles are not necessarily powered by fossil fuels.


So, either you get trucks that carry as many fuel cells as proper cargo, or those funky Siemens eHighway stuff. And when you have that, you can go on and optimize and get rid of some friction related energy loss, they're not really going to turn all that way, so you can put in some rails... oh wait.


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## K_

flierfy said:


> If you can't keep up with the discussion intellectually then just do this forum the honour and leave. Your arrogance is no grace and this forum would do very well without.


You wrote 



> This approach is extremely selfish. Countries around CH built modern rail lines to speed up journeys also for the Swiss. Yet, Switzerland invest only in infrastructure which benefits its own people. Switzerland could very well pave the way for a fast rail link between Frankfurt/M and Milano.


And these three sentences do display a very high degree of ignorance, as they are both patently at odds with reality.

You seem to be unaware of the fact that Switzerland has (and is) investing in improvement of railways outside its borders, where those improvements benefit it's people.
Switzerland has invested in the improvement of the Pontarlier - Dijon railway, has contributed to the construction of the LGV Rhin-Rhone, and has financed a third of the cost for the reopening of the Ligne du Haut Bugey which shortened Geneve - Paris timings.
Not knowing this you really are not in a postion to claim the high ground here.

But it doesn't stop there. You complain that Switzerland should pave the way for a fast rail link between Frankfurt and Milano.
Wel it is.
Since 2002 Switzerland has cut half an hour from Basel - Milano via the Simplon, and in a few years will cut a full hour from the Gotthard route.
Germany is also speeding up the route from Karlsruhe down to Basel but you can't claim the Switzerland is doing nothing here. On the contrary. Pretending that Switzerland is not investing in improving the Trans Alpine Railways could point towards a certain level of malice from your part. However, again, in your case I find ignorance easier to believe.

When Vaud pointed this out to you you answered thus:



> The project is beneficial almost entirely for Switzerland only as Germany and Italy would be vastly better off with an additional tubes of the Gotthard road tunnel instead.


So you're not only ignorant. When you are found out, you tend to panic, and change the topic... You complain about Switzerland not investing in rail, when we point out how far from reality your view of the facts appears to be you change to complaining about there not being an additional road tunnel... That's a classic debater's trick.

Sorry, but we're smarter than you. A lot it appears.


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## K_

Vaud said:


> No no, the additional platforms would be added under the already underground station of the airport, Cornavin wouldn't be affected.


You're right.

However I can't keep thinking if there isn't a better alternative than demolishing all those houses behind Cornavin... 

What about having most trains from France run to the (enlarged) airport station, freeing up capacity in Cornavin?


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## chornedsnorkack

Gotthard Base Tunnel is designed for 250 km/h.

When the Gotthard Base Tunnel shall open in 2016, how far north of Erstfeld shall the railways be free of bottlenecks requiring slowdown below 250 km/h? What shall the travel time be from, say, Basel to Camorino in 2016?


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## K_

chornedsnorkack said:


> Gotthard Base Tunnel is designed for 250 km/h.
> 
> When the Gotthard Base Tunnel shall open in 2016, how far north of Erstfeld shall the railways be free of bottlenecks requiring slowdown below 250 km/h? What shall the travel time be from, say, Basel to Camorino in 2016?


Interesting choice. Camorino doesn't have a station... You need to get to Bellinzona first, and change there. 

Right now it's a bit under 4 hours, once an hour. Eventually it will be under 3 hours, and twice an hour, so quite an improvement.
This shows one of the improvements the base tunnel will bring: Half hourly service between the major hubs north and south of the Alps, with an hour cut from the schedule, and a timetable that makes it possible to have quick transfers in all directions at the hubs. This will mean faster trips for everyone...


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## Suburbanist

Are there any plans to link Valais and Ticino with some sort of rail tunnel that doesn't require taking the slow trains to Goschenen or having to travel via Milano?

I'm talking about a Brig-Ariolo link with a high-base tunnel.


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## Coccodrillo

@chornedsnorkack

The GBT will reduce travel time by 40 minutes, and the CBT by 10 minutes (roughly). It was initially planned a reduction of exactly 60 minutes but after the Cisalpino disaster it has been decided to use more realistic timetables.

@Suburbanist

There was a plan for a branch of the narrow gauge line to Airolo. For that it was planned to enlarge an access adit used to bore the 15.4 km long Furka base tunnel (to be used also by car shuttles). This adit (~6 km) is now unused and link the base tunnel with the Ticino river valley. It is highly unlikely this branch will ever be built, and a completely new and fast railway is complete science fiction, as are any new transalpine railway or motorway (at least in this century).


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## FARO15ful




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## Coccodrillo

Coccodrillo said:


> I suppose that firefly is proposing to skip Basel SBB going directly from Basel Bad to Zürich or whatever. It might be nice from a theoretical point of view, however the Hauenstein line (Basel-Olten) is nearing capacity at 400 trains per day so international trains have to use an existing slot, replacing an IC.





Sunfuns said:


> I think this will need some rather expensive solution in the next 20 years anyway. Swiss population is still growing rapidly, so it's just logical that more infrastructure will need to be built.


There is a plan for a new line between Liestal and Olten, including the at least 10 km long Wisenbergtunnel.


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## Vaud

Thought of sharing some pictures with you  (they're not mine, links provided)

An ETR 610 (prob. going to/coming from Italy) on the shores of Lake Geneva passing by the village of St-Saphorin








link

One of the brand new RABe 510 used for regional services passing by Lavaux vineyards on Grandvaux, close to Lausanne








link

The Pilatus showing why are there so many trains climbing high in Switzerland :lol:








link

And this is a very special picture: One of the steam-powered set of locomotives used for Pilatus rack and pinion railway before it got electrified








link
Past engineering skills never cease to surprise me, notice the weird suspension or the lack of a proper water deposit. Two of those locomotives have survived, one is displayed in Lucern


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## Suburbanist

Travelling in the past was probably extremely dangerous in mountain areas and likely hundreds of people were killed in train and cable car accidents. It is welcoming to have modern rolling stock available for the more stringent demands of modern mountain railkway engineering.


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## webeagle12

Switzerland by webeagle12, on Flickr


Train to Visp by webeagle12, on Flickr


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## Suburbanist

^^ On which train line does the latter train operate? Is it a touristic line?


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## Momo1435

^^ Is it that hard to use Google.

The picture is shot in Zermatt, that should say enough.


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## TheZoolooMaster

^^
Glacier Express, .nuff said.


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## chornedsnorkack

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ On which train line does the latter train operate? Is it a touristic line?


Touristic?

Zermatt has nearly 6000 year-round native citizens. Whether it is a village, a town, a city or a borough, it is not a suburb of any other city - the nearest bigger settlement (just 7200 citizens) is Visp 35 km away.

And Zermatt is *completely unreachable by cars!* No road gets closer than Täsch - and reaching Zermatt from Täsch is a distance of 6 km, and 170 m uphill (net rise, without counting ups and downs).

Is the railway the only connection to Täsch, or are any paths out of Zermatt kept passable for bicycles or skis?


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## Momo1435

^^ There's a normal road to Zermatt.

Tourist that come by car or bus are just not allowed to drive their vehicle beyond Täsch. Locals with a permit can drive their cars to the edge of town itself, as can rescue vehicles and the occasional truck. But the town center is completely of limit for cars. 

In town you only see small electric vehicles that are used as taxis or delivery trucks.


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## webeagle12

chornedsnorkack said:


> Touristic?
> 
> Zermatt has nearly 6000 year-round native citizens. Whether it is a village, a town, a city or a borough, it is not a suburb of any other city - the nearest bigger settlement (just 7200 citizens) is Visp 35 km away.
> 
> And Zermatt is *completely unreachable by cars!* No road gets closer than Täsch - and reaching Zermatt from Täsch is a distance of 6 km, and 170 m uphill (net rise, without counting ups and downs).
> 
> Is the railway the only connection to Täsch, or are any paths out of Zermatt kept passable for bicycles or skis?


Stop spreading bull shit. There is a private road that lead straight to zermatt for emergency services, etc. but since zermatt have a ban on vehicles (except emergency services, construction, etc..) you have to park you car in Tasch.

Same as villages like Murren. NO cars allowed but there is a private road to it.


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## earthJoker

TheZoolooMaster said:


> ^^
> Glacier Express, .nuff said.


That's not the Glacier Express in the picture above, it's the regional train from Zermatt to Visp. It is still mostly used by tourists.


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## Momo1435

There was a big accident on Thursday. 

A LION composition with the Re 420 and double stock cars collided with a GTW from Thurbo. 



> *17 injured in Schaffhausen train crash*
> 
> Seventeen people are said to be injured and nine are in hospital after two trains collided in the canton of Schaffhausen.
> 
> It happened during rush-hour this morning at the station in Neuhausen-am-Rheinfall.
> 
> Witnesses say a locomotive derailed and hit an oncoming train.
> 
> full article:
> http://worldradio.ch/wrs/news/wrsnews/up-to-17-injured-in-schaffhausen-train-crash.shtml?34057


News items in Schwizerdütsch. 








































source pictures:
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich...Es-gab-einen-sehr-grossen-Ruck/story/13135721


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## Suburbanist

Any preliminary info on circumstances of accident, such as whether and which train violated its signal? Apparently the accident happened near a switch point.


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## Momo1435

The cause of the accident is still being investigated.

But there is a big chance that one of the train drivers violated a signal. This line is equipped with the traditional Swiss Integra-Signum train protection system, it's also unclear if it could actually have prevented an accident like this. 

The situation here is that the line from Schaffhausen to Neuhausen is 2km long double track, after the station it splits into a single track line to Winterthur and the single track main line to Zürich. The Thurbo GTW was on it's way from Winterthur to Schaffhausen, the loco hauled S-Bahn train was traveling in the other direction. 

It's common here that the trains to and from Winterthur also use the same track between Schaffhausen and Neuhausen. This means that the Thurbo GTW would drive on the right between the 2 stations where the normal driving side on the Swiss railways is left. The same goes for the trains to and from Zürich on the opposite track. So basically the line is used as a double single track. 

The Thurbo GTW had just departed from Neuhausen, the S-Bahn was about to arrive at the station. It looks like the driver of the Thurbo train ignored a red signal or didn't wait for a departure signal at the station and departed before straight into the path of the upcoming train that would have used the switches that are seen to enter the station on the opposite track.


Here's a youtube video capture of the situation taken from the back of an IC from Schaffhausen to Zürich.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv3QjAE8jp0

You can see the end of the platform of Neuhausen station, the signals for the switch and the switch itself in the background. It's a bit zoomed in, the actual distance between the platform edge and the switch is about 120m, the signal stands half way. But distance between the center of the platform where Thurbo would have halted is between 300m and 340m. 











The Integra-Signum only stops the train after it passes a red sign, since the sign is located close to the switch there might not have enough room to stop the train in time. The main questions now are why the train departed and if the current safety system would have been able to stop the train on time.

We have to wait for the official results of the inquiry into this accident, to make any further conclusions. But it already shows that a safety system that can make a train stop before a red signal, like ERTMS should be the future on any busy track in Europe.


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## dimlys1994

Before New Year's Eve, I found on YouTube these clips about Swiss rail with perfect song "Welcome Home":

Short version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bdpGkq2pZk

Full version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ARrex2umM0

As I understood from one post, there was a talent contest. The winners of this casting were office worker (looks (for me) like Bridget Jones) and train driver.


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## K_

Momo1435 said:


> It's common here that the trains to and from Winterthur also use the same track between Schaffhausen and Neuhausen. This means that the Thurbo GTW would drive on the right between the 2 stations where the normal driving side on the Swiss railways is left. The same goes for the trains to and from Zürich on the opposite track. So basically the line is used as a double single track.


However the S11 trains normally would run on the right hand track in the direction of Zürich. On this particular day it didn't...
You can see this in the graphical timetable:
http://www.fahrplanfelder.ch/fileadmin/fap_pdf_graphic_tt/G731.pdf



> We have to wait for the official results of the inquiry into this accident, to make any further conclusions. But it already shows that a safety system that can make a train stop before a red signal, like ERTMS should be the future on any busy track in Europe.


Well, SBB has decided to equip the whole network with ETCS by 2020. So this is happening.


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## Suburbanist

The majority of recent accidents in Europe last 20 years were, indeed, in proximity of stations or switch points.

Semi-related question: when will they build a full 2-track railway to Zurich from Schaffhausen?


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Semi-related question: when will they build a full 2-track railway to Zurich from Schaffhausen?


Not in the near future. There are two double track sections between Eglisau and Schaffhausen. These were recently build in order to make it possible to have two IC/IR/RE services per hour. 
South of Eglisau the line is already double track. Completely double tracking the line will only happen if the schedule needs it.


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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Semi-related question: when will they build a full 2-track railway to Zurich from Schaffhausen?


When it will be needed.

(edit: contemporary with K)


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## Coccodrillo

By 2016 a new ropeway will link the BOB and JB railways, in addition to the WAB railway which will not be closed. A new ropeway will replace the Männlichen ropeway but on a slightly different alignment.


http://www.jungfrau.ch/nc/en/touris...bahn-zum-eigergletscher-und-maennlichen-1381/


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## Nexis

K_ said:


> Actually, no. If Suburbanist worked for Ansaldo Breda he would know that Ansaldo Breda has dismantled the production line for the V250. They couldn't build another V250 even if someone wanted one...


Why did they dismantle it?


----------



## da_scotty

Negative peer-reviews after some problems in the Netherlands....

And because the Dutch are the only ones stupid enough to buy it!


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## K_

Momo1435 said:


> *Stadler*
> This will be their first entry into this market, they will come with an upgrade of the Flirt sets they delivered to Norway that already have a max designed speed of 200 km/h. SER says that Stadler is the favorite to get this order.


Of course I want the order to be given based on objective criteria, nevertheless it would be great if Stadler got this one.
They could offer a train based on the NSB Flirt, which is basically a 3car single ended Flirt coupled permanently to a two car unit, like this: Bo'2'2'Bo'+2'2'Bo'
Along the same lines they could thus for example offer the following configuration: Bo'2'2'Bo'+2'2'2'+Bo'2'2'Bo'.
Would be about the right length, have a power of 6000kW and could be separated in two sections for maintenance. The middle section could be build in two version, with and without Restaurant, just as SBB requested.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Given most CH trips are short, why does SBB wast a car's space with an on-board restaurant? 

I can understand it on the special touristic trips of trains like the Bernina Express, but not elsewhere.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Given most CH trips are short, why does SBB wast a car's space with an on-board restaurant?


Because they are in fact quite popular, even on shorter trips. But don't forget that these are trains for the Gotthard. Most people passengers will spend an hour or more on them.


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## Coccodrillo

In any case SBB decided to keep restaurants on all its InterCitys.


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## Vaud

I've had so many dinners on my Geneva(or Lausanne) - Zurich trips :cheers: wouldn't understand CFF removing them since I'm sure they make money out of them, they're even integrating a Starbucks stand in the IC2000 trainsets.


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## Suburbanist

^^ A problem of having restaurant cars, beyond the costs of staff, extra weight and energy used, is that it mean lost capacity that is critical on peak times, meaning people might be travelling standing more often when trains are full because the restaurant car is there (instead of additional 80-100 seats)


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## thun

But then it's a good way to yield some extra revenues.


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## Coccodrillo

On Basel/Zürich-Lugano ICNs that run in multiple one of the two restaurant cars is closed (and used by people with a second class ticket that want to use a computer), beside that these cars have three first class 6-seats compartment.

(but these 14-coach EMUs are still too small on peak days, so that they send another 7-car ICN or 9-car ETR right before/after them)


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ A problem of having restaurant cars, beyond the costs of staff, extra weight and energy used, is that it mean lost capacity that is critical on peak times, meaning people might be travelling standing more often when trains are full because the restaurant car is there (instead of additional 80-100 seats)


Replacing the restaurant with a 1st class carriage in the new IC200 double deckers would yield an extra 11 seats. So it's not really that much. Anyway. Crowding at peak times is worst on S-Bahn trains, which don't have restaurants. And the SBB's strategy for dealing with crowding is to run more and longer trains, not to pack the passengers tighter. Bern - Zürich will see 16 car trains in the near future, and will eventually go to a train every 15 minutes.


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## Coccodrillo

The crocodile (the group of locos sources of my nickname) which was plinted in Erstfeld as a monument, on a track not connected to the network, has been put on real rails again. I don't know why, it cannot certainly function, maybe not even towed.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=421397&nseq=8

Edit: likely here: http://www.industriegeschichten.ch/


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## Vaud

Other news...

The liberals, PLR (les Libéraux-Radicaux, or FDP in german), one of the big political parties in Switzerland, have proposed a Swiss-wide "S-Bahn / RER" that would link Geneva to Saint-Gallen. The idea is to have trains every 15min travelling at 160km/h in that important corridor linking most of all the major urban centers in the country (Geneva, Lausanne, Fribourg, Berne, Zurich, SG), since alpine corridors have already soaked plenty of investments.

This is a long-term idea whose result wouldn't be ready before 2040, but such a project also needs long-term planning.

Link: Tribune de Genève (french only)


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## Vaud

The graphical description for those not familiar with population distribution in Switzerland; population density and total by municipality:









(the darker the densier, the larger the square the larger the population of the municipality)


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## XAN_

It would be nice if one of this great locos would be restored in working condition for heritage trains...


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## K_

XAN_ said:


> It would be nice if one of this great locos would be restored in working condition for heritage trains...


Which great loco's are you talking about? When replying to a message it is convenient to quote it, so people know what you are talking about. 

Anyway, there are a lot of preserved loco's in Switzerland.
http://www.railfaneurope.net/list/switzerland/switzerland_sbb-his.html
http://www.railfaneurope.net/list/switzerland/switzerland_bls_his.html

And that's even not complete, as this omits rolling stock in private hands...


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## K_

Vaud said:


> ... The idea is to have trains every 15min travelling at 160km/h in that important corridor linking most of all the major urban centers in the country (Geneva, Lausanne, Fribourg, Berne, Zurich, SG), since alpine corridors have already soaked plenty of investments.
> 
> This is a long-term idea whose result wouldn't be ready before 2040, but such a project also needs long-term planning.


Some parts might be realised before that. We'll probably see four tracks on Geneve - Lausanne soon, and a train every 15 minutes between Bern and Zürich is also going to happen before 2040. Current SBB plans already aim for a travel reduction of 30 minutes on Geneve - St. Gallen.


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## gramercy

Vaud said:


> The graphical description


good one, highlights it very nicely

but i still think they should have a HSL between zurich and geneva


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## thun

^^
Which wouldn't make that much sense as you'd either need too many stops or have too little demand (for direct trains). The Swiss political system where citizens can block such projects quite easily doesn't help either. E.g. you'd definitely need a stop in the Bern canton if you want such ideas to pass a referendum.


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## Coccodrillo

K_ said:


> You're not even allowed to stand in first class with a second class ticket.


Until a few years ago the notice that said that had a different version in Italian. It said that with a second class ticket it was forbidden to _sit_ in a first class coach (thus without forbidding to _stand_), while in the other languages it said it was forbidden to _remain_.


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## alphorn

Coccodrillo said:


> I haven't found a timetable draft, but realistic timetables are, with the CBT:
> 
> Zürich-Lugano 2h40 > 1h40
> Zürich-Milano 3h40* > 2h50


Unfortunately, your times are too optimistic. The most recent numbers I heard were Zurich-Lugano in 1h50 and from that would mean Zurich-Milano in about 2h55; the slower times mainly because the speed in the tunnel was reduced to 160 km/h.

This is very bad news for the international traffic. Since the timetables north of Gotthard cannot be changed, the trains will arrive in Milano at about five minutes past the full hour. Most connecting trains are already gone by that time, in some cases you lose a full hour waiting for the connecting train which completely negates any gain made using the base tunnel.

On the other hand, there's good news for the national traffic. Since the tunnel trains drive more slowly, they steal less capacity from goods trains. Therefore, a train can be run every half hour instead of every hour. Also, the slower timetable means that the trains will be crossing in Lugano at :00, whereby a connecting train or bus can arrive just before :00 and allow ideal connecting times in both directions.


----------



## Nexis




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## Coccodrillo

@alphorn: that's sad...but if it is better to promise a travel time of 2h55 to Milan, but always respecting that, than promising 2h40, and arriving 10 to 15 minutes late 90% of the trips (like today).

A solution might be leaving Zürich around .30, like Zürich 7.39-Milan 10.35. That should be possible, as I heard that the arrival/departure minutes in Milano will be changed, and as SBB will offer an half-hourly service to Lugano (so there will be two slots from Zürich, not just one like today + the slot for slow extra trains at .31). However, an arrival in Milan at .35 would still mean a 30'-45' wait for most connecting trains (that leaves at .05 to .20), like until 2008, when the EC arrived in Milan at .35 and left it at .25.

To compare, actual timetables are like Zürich 7.09-Milan 10.50 (with nearly every day with a 10-15 minutes delay). So the time saving would still be a full hour (if one doesn't have to take another train in Milan).


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## Sunfuns

Too bad it can't be perfectly aligned with connecting services both nationally and internationally... It is a, however, a fair assumption that most passengers arriving from north Switzerland will stay in the city itself. 

By the way is there a more local service between Lugano and Milan?


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## Suburbanist

There was TILO...

Milan is a big market on itself. No need to keep worried with connecting services coming from Switzerland. Few people would travel to Firenze or Venezia by train from Switzerland, but rather fly beacuse it is much faster anyway.


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## Coccodrillo

Sunfuns said:


> Too bad it can't be perfectly aligned with connecting services both nationally and internationally... It is a, however, a fair assumption that most passengers arriving from north Switzerland will stay in the city itself.


I remember I heard that 30% of the passengers of trains that continued after Milan (like the Zürich-Florence) remained on board in Milan. However I cannot say how much passengers transfer there (but a short connecting time is important to be competitive on trips like Lugano-Parma or Como-Brescia).



Sunfuns said:


> By the way is there a more local service between Lugano and Milan?


There are the S10 TILO Bellinzona-Lugano-Chiasso-Como and S11 Chiasso-Como-Milano Porta Garibaldi, each every 30 to 60 minutes, but stopping at all station and with a waiting time of 20' between them they are not an alternative for Lugano-Milano (which it's done in 2h rather than 1h).

There are then semi-fast TILO services Milano Centrale-Bellinzona, taking 25 minutes more than the EC CIS. They leave or reach Milano Centrale at the same minutes of the EC CIS when these don't run, giving sometimes a departure every hour (from 13.10 to 20.10, and arrivals from 7.50 to 12.50, on other times there are holes of 2 or 3 hours without fast trains). Some of these services (Milan 13.10, 18.10, 20.10) replaces EC CIS services which have been canceled or were never born, but where planned in Cisalpino's plan.



Suburbanist said:


> Few people would travel to Firenze or Venezia by train from Switzerland, but rather fly because it is much faster anyway.


I'm not so sure airplanes are faster on Lucerne-Bologna or Lucerne-Florence, especially in the future with AlpTransit.


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> I'm not so sure airplanes are faster on Lucerne-Bologna or Lucerne-Florence, especially in the future with AlpTransit.


I'd say that even now Luzern - Milano - somewhere in Italy is faster by train for any place less than 2 hours from Milano.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> There was TILO...
> 
> Milan is a big market on itself. No need to keep worried with connecting services coming from Switzerland. Few people would travel to Firenze or Venezia by train from Switzerland, but rather fly beacuse it is much faster anyway.


Don't underestimate the mindshare rail has in Switzerland. For any destination in Northern Italy the train is the first thing that will be considered. Speed isn't the only consideration when choosing a means of transportation.


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## makita09

Vaud said:


> they're even integrating a Starbucks stand in the IC2000 trainsets.


Shame, their particular brand of over-roasted mud is not what I'd want to find in europe. May as well drink instant coffee from Aldi.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Any preliminary info on circumstances of accident, such as whether and which train violated its signal? Apparently the accident happened near a switch point.


Preliminary info has now been published.
http://www.uvek.admin.ch/dokumentation/00474/00492/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=47455

Short version: The northbound S33 train left Neuhausen to early, and passed a signal at danger. It should have waited till the southbound S11 had entered track two. It hit the S11 as it was crossing over to the other track. At the moment of collision the S11 was still doing 37 km/h, the S33 only 1.2 km/h (I suspect the train protection system had initiated an emergency braking).


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## XAN_

There is a news that 175 trains will be replaced with buses in SWITZERLAND - http://cfts.org.ua/news/48402, is there any more details about that?


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## Sunfuns

K_ said:


> Don't underestimate the mindshare rail has in Switzerland. For any destination in Northern Italy the train is the first thing that will be considered. Speed isn't the only consideration when choosing a means of transportation.


I have a couple of Italian friends from Florence area now living in Basel. They almost always either fly or drive. Flying is preferred if traveling alone, driving if traveling with kids.


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## Coccodrillo

XAN_ said:


> There is a news that 175 trains will be replaced with buses in SWITZERLAND - http://cfts.org.ua/news/48402, is there any more details about that?


It isn't true. In a few words and simplifying a little bureaucratic details, the ministry of transport wrote a list of railway which cover less than 50% of their operating costs with tickets, and said that every one of them should be checked in detail to decide if it can be replaced by buses or not. However, this list leaked to newspapers without further explanation and these said that the government wanted to close these lines, which is not true.

In this list there are also many S-Bahn lines even in Bern and Zürich (because even if they transport a lot of people they cover less than 50% of their cost), but also some new tramway lines (like line 12 in Zürich, which was built from scratch and with many viaducts and tunnels just 3 years ago, and will certainly not be closed).


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## alphorn

Coccodrillo said:


> A solution might be leaving Zürich around .30, like Zürich 7.39-Milan 10.35.


The problem with that is that some connecting trains only arrive hourly, for example the one from Stuttgart. Not a big deal in Zurich, but quite a problem for the Basel-Lugano(-Milano) trains. Those, I assume, will continue to run only hourly, which would mean they lose good connections to the hourly arrivals from Germany and Delemont. This is quite relevant because those trains are currently the fastest connections from those places to Lucerne. Connections like Karlsruhe-Lugano would lose half an hour.

In the very long run, though, all will be fine. South of Lugano, there are still some sections with gradients too steep for single traction goods trains so a new tunnel needs to be built. That will save 13 minutes, so with a :00 departure in Lugano the trains would arrive in Milano at :50 - exactly the right time. But that won't happen before 2030.


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## Suburbanist

ROFL, traffic from Germany to Italy by train is probably very light to be considered on long connections. I doubt there is any sizeable market Stuttgart Hbf-Milano Centrale for instance.


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## K_

XAN_ said:


> There is a news that 175 trains will be replaced with buses in SWITZERLAND - http://cfts.org.ua/news/48402, is there any more details about that?


This is mostly a case of journalists completely misunderstanding things.


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## K_

Sunfuns said:


> I have a couple of Italian friends from Florence area now living in Basel. They almost always either fly or drive. Flying is preferred if traveling alone, driving if traveling with kids.


They're Italians. Swiss are a bit different.

Looking at the current prices flying is about twice as expensive for a time savings of about 2 hours... I would not consider flying.


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## alphorn

Suburbanist said:


> ROFL, traffic from Germany to Italy by train is probably very light to be considered on long connections. I doubt there is any sizeable market Stuttgart Hbf-Milano Centrale for instance.


I was not saying there was (even though there used to be direct trains!). The problem are destinations in the middle. They work fine from Zurich because trains will run every half hour, but probably not from Basel. If the hourly trains Basel-Luzern-Lugano(-Milano) start half an hour later, the connections from Karlsruhe, Mulhouse and Delemont will lose about 15 minutes to Lucerne and half an hour to Lugano and Milano.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Why not put other trains from Lugano to Basel via Luzern then?


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## steple

Snow blowing on the Bernina line

"The Beast" X rot mt 95404:



















Regular passenger train with spur plow:










pictures by Georg Trüb/railpictures.net


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## Coccodrillo

How will look Geneva tracks after the conversion from 1500 V DC to 25 kV AC of the line to France and the construction of some convertible sections (15 or 25 kV AC):










From the 2012 HS-links report: http://www.bav.admin.ch/hgv/01872/01880/index.html?lang=de


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## AlexNL

Why is the 1,5 kV section converted into switchable (15 kV / 25 kV) and dedicated 25 kV sections? It doesn't look like the French will be making changes on their side of the border, are they?


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## K_

AlexNL said:


> Why is the 1,5 kV section converted into switchable (15 kV / 25 kV) and dedicated 25 kV sections? It doesn't look like the French will be making changes on their side of the border, are they?


Eventually the French will get rid of the 1,5 kV too. And that is why the SBB doesn't want to invest in 1,5kV catenary.


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## Coccodrillo

The French plan to convert the line from Bellegarde (included) to the border to 25 kV, so as to eliminate the short DC section near Bellegarde between Bourg en Bresse and Geneva.

The electric infrastructure (wires, poles, substations) would have to be entirely replaced anyway as it's old, so the SBB prefer to switch to AC also because with the CEVA line under construction suburban trains will reach Annemasse, which uses 25 kV AC, so keeping also DC would have meant ordering 3-current AC/DC suburban trains (instead of just 2-current AC only, which are cheaper).

See the French map: http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/france/france.gif


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## steple

The new Löwenstrasse through station in Zürich, pictures from http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/zuerich/stadt_region/oeffentlicher-verkehr-zuercher-durchmesserlinie-testbetrieb-1.18065439#

The raw construction work is completed. Work on installing the tunnel infrastructure systems is progressing well. Opening of the line is scheduled for 15 June 2014.


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## steple




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## steple




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## Sunfuns

Would that date then signify the end of construction works in and around Zurich main station? I've already forgotten how it is without never ending construction there...


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## Coccodrillo

20th April 2013

Airolo:










Göschenen:










Göschenen:










Riedtunnel:


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## Suburbanist

^^ Late snow?

It will make for a nice thaw season.


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## Vaud

I should go grab my skis again from the basement, maybe it was too early to store them :nuts:


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## Suburbanist

semi-related question: has this harsh winter put enough snow to bring the level of hydro dams up to their maximums?


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## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> semi-related question: has this harsh winter put enough snow to bring the level of hydro dams up to their maximums?


It wasn't really a particularly harsh winter. Just a freak late snow storm :lol:

I went hiking around Sihlsee two weeks ago and the water level there was very low...


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## Vaud

Suburbanist said:


> semi-related question: has this harsh winter put enough snow to bring the level of hydro dams up to their maximums?


On the contrary, the dams are empty since it has rained a lot in the plateau but apparently not in the mountains hno: there even was a mass-death of fish in the Grisons some weeks ago due to lack of water: link

The same news says:



> Dans les Grisons, le degré de remplissage n'atteignait que 9,6% à la fin du mois passé, selon des chiffres mis en ligne lundi dernier sur le site de l'OFEN. En Valais, il se situait à 11,3%, au Tessin à 14,9% et dans le reste de la Suisse à 17,2%


9.6% full in Grisons, 11.3% in Valais, 14.9% in Ticino, on average for the country, 12.5%


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> semi-related question: has this harsh winter put enough snow to bring the level of hydro dams up to their maximums?


The dams are usually at their maximum at the end of summer. The snow has to melt first. Right now they are actually at their lowest.


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## earthJoker

Suburbanist said:


> semi-related question: has this harsh winter put enough snow to bring the level of hydro dams up to their maximums?


No way, in winter they are always low:








As you see, we get most rain in summer. The amount of water in snow is usually overestimated.


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## eeee.

569m?


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## Coccodrillo

Vaud said:


> I should go grab my skis again from the basement, maybe it was too early to store them :nuts:


I used the Gotthard line again, yesterday there was no snow at all in Airolo, just two days after! And just a small layer of snow in Göschenen. Today most of the snow disappeared (just some traces in Göschenen, and the entirely white tops of the mountains).


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## earthJoker

eeee. said:


> 569m?


Probably ETH Hönggerberg. 
http://www.iac.ethz.ch/research/meteostation/hberg


----------



## eu01

K_ said:


> But there are still trains from Le Loclé to Besançon. Or you could have gone via Dôle. You didn't need to make it so complicated...


I knew that, but everything in life need not to be that simple. First, I have an adventurous nature. Second, I wanted to see the picturesque Nyon - La Cure route. The third reason: there is something interesting on the French side as well, the Morez viaduct(s).


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## steple

The Intercity tilting train ICN (RABDe 500): 

In new paint scheme after revision in Moutier station










In the narrow gorge of Moutier in the Jura mountain range










Racing with 160 km/h










With maximum cant of 8 degrees on the Gotthard line










Two ICN meeting at 125 km/h near Kemptthal










all photos by Georg Trüb/railpictures.net


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## Sopomon

Those are some very good lookign trains, who built them?


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## AlexNL

The design was done by Pininfarina, the Italian bureau of Ferrari fame. The construction was carried out jointly by Alstom and Bombardier. If you look closely at the nose, you can see the names of the companies involved.


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## Coccodrillo

1. Serie (500.000 to 023): Adtranz Zürich Oerlikon und Pratteln, FIAT-SIG Neuhausen
2. Serie (500.024 to 043): Bombardier Transportation Zürich Oerlikon und Pratteln, Alstom Neuhausen

There was also a 4-car prototype, RABDe 500.050, built in 1998 and demolished in 2001 because of some structural defects (maybe retaining a some spare pieces to repair the others). It has been used for some promotional trips open tot he general public, but never in normal service (it would have been too small). Note that it was numbered as train 50, not as train 0, a "strange" choice similar to the V250 prototype, which is n. 4806, and not 4800, 4801 or 4899 (similarly to other prototypes).


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## Sunfuns

Blasting works for the new Rosshäusern tunnel on the BLS line between Bern and Neuchatel has started few days ago. The double track tunnel is 2.1 km long and when finished in 2016 will shorten the journey by four minutes as well as provide extra capapcity and allow double deck trains to run on the line. The speed limit will be 160 km/h (90 km/h in the old tunnel).

http://www.derbund.ch/bern/kanton/Erste-Sprengung-fuer-den-Rosshaeuserntunnel/story/20222725


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## steple

The Re 460, known as the locomotive 2000. 
The design is also by Pininfarina, the buidlers were the Swiss Locomotive and Machine works (SLM), Winterthur and Asea Brown Boveri (ABB), Zürich. A total of 119 Re 460 were produced, plus 18 similar locomotives Re 465. The top speed is 200 km/h, designed for 230 km/h. Power output: 6100 kW (8180 hp).

Interregio from Geneva to Brig is passing Chillon castle near Montreux on the shores of Lake Geneva.










Running through Salgesch in the Valais. In the background snow covered mountains some 40 km away.










They are the backbone of SBB's Intercity and Eurocity traction. Most are used in push-pull operation.










Winter railroading on the Gotthard line.










And again, climbing up the mountain. If you look closely, you can see the grade!










A very impressive bridges landscape is found in the Dala gorge between Leuk and Varen in the Valais. A train is crossing the bridge at 160 km/h. The passengers can see daylight for less then 2 seconds between two long tunnels!










The Re 460 016 was unique in her "wave paint scheme". Beautiful view on Lake Geneva and the vineyards near Lausanne.










Meeting of two trains, both running with 140 km/h, between Rupperswil and Lenzburg.










all photos by Georg Trüb/railpictures.net


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## Sopomon

Those double deck IC coaches have a very imposing look. Standing with a friend at Zurich Hbf he mentioned that there was almost something looming and sinister about them. Very cool


----------



## StuZealand

Beautiful photos!


----------



## Suburbanist

Do they have plans to buy new EMUs for the Centovalli railway?


----------



## Momo1435

There don't seem to be any plans for new trains right now.

Both the FART and the SSIF operate ABe 4/6/ABe 4/8 from the early 1990s. The ABe 4/8 are the sets that got an extra car and that are used for the "Centovalli Express" in 2011. The SSIF also operate 3 ABe 8/8 Panorama sets that were delivered in 2007. The older sets are only used as a reserve and for special trains. 

So there's no real current need for new trains since the trains are either new or newly renovated.










http://www.sguggiari.ch/4_foto_varie_2.php


Panoramatrain from FART in the Centovalli by Philip feels 40 years old, on Flickr


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## Suburbanist

*Why do International trains take longer?*

Is there a reason for which trains on the Milano-Zürich route take 17 minutes longer than domestic IC trains between Lugano and Arth-Goldau, considering both services only have one intermediate stop at Belinzona? I'm considering times between departure from Lugano and arrival at Arth-Goldau.


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## aliesperet

These trains tend to get delayed quite easily, the rolling stock used on these services will be put out of service next year due to reliability problems.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Is there a reason for which trains on the Milano-Zürich route take 17 minutes longer than domestic IC trains between Lugano and Arth-Goldau, considering both services only have one intermediate stop at Belinzona? I'm considering times between departure from Lugano and arrival at Arth-Goldau.


They aren't all slower. 
If you look up times on line for Lugano - Arth Goldau only a few of the EC services will show up. 
Have a look at the printed timetable here:
http://www.fahrplanfelder.ch/fileadmin/fap_pdf_fields/2013/600.pdf
Look at the times for EC12 and ICN 10012. They only run a few minutes apart. However since trains from Italy are often late SBB wants domestic passengers to take the ICN 10012 in stead. For this reason EC12 stops in Lugano and Bellinzona are marked "set down only" and thus this train will not show up in on line searches. 
You will however notice that EC12 is not slower than ICN10012.
This shadowing of trains to/from Italy by domestic trains SBB also does on the Lötschberg route.
There are a few EC routes on the Gotthard route that are run using conventional loco hauled stock. These have three digit train numbers in stead of two digit numbers. Eg, EC14 is sometimes replaced with EC114, which takes longer. 
The reason is the inability of Trenitalia to have enough ETR470 sets in running order.


----------



## Coccodrillo

You can board EC 12 in Lugano, if you want. I do that very rarely when I miss ICN 10012.

The EC 24 is run by an ETR 470 tilting train but has an extended time table like the three-digit ECs to avoid having to guarantee improbable (because of high delay risk) connections or having to pay an hotel night for passengers (it is the last train of the day from Italy). IIRC last year also the EC 22 had an extended timetable for the same reason (while EC 15 and 24 were loco hauled).


----------



## K_

The new timetable for 2014 has been put on line:
http://www.fahrplanentwurf.ch/

From June 15 2014 onwards the new underground platforms in Zürich Hbf will be use by some S-Bahn services, which will have different departure times. There are also big changes on the Gotthard route (again as of June 15th 2014) which aim to increase timetable stability. 
That SBB makes significant changes to its timetable mid year is quite exceptional.


----------



## Vaud

The Conseil National has approved the CHF6.4 billion to be spent on rail infrastructure. The financing will be done, among other sources, by incrementing the VAT by 0.1% from 2018 to 2030. 

The total amount spent on rail projects will be 7.5 billion, though, since the 1.1 billion spent in Lausanne alone will be financed through the money approved for Rail2000 in 1998 but not yet used.

The 6.4 billion will be used among other things for Leman2030 including the extension of Geneva's train station, for which the decision on whether it's best to build it underground or on the surface (by destroying some buildings around) will be made public on the 1st of July, although a referendum in canton Geneva is threatening any decision; the fund will only finance 790 million though, the estimated cost for the surface option, so any other variant, if it turns to be more expensive and people vote for it, will need to be financed solely by Geneva.


----------



## Vaud

All the projects:


----------



## Suburbanist

I have a question: if the Furka base tunnel is closed for whatever reason (maintenance, improvement, renovations), can they route trains through the old route or was the wiring and signaling removed? I've driven a car there, but I don't remember whether I saw normal track infrastructure there or not.


----------



## CRS-moto

Good question. I think the old Furka-Tunnel is not fully developped of the todays trains which pass the new Furka-Tunnel like the Glacier-Express. They actually planned to shut down the old Furka-route completely. Only train-enthusiasts build by themselves the old route to an extend which allowed again trains.

http://old.furka-bergstrecke.ch/ger/index.php


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## Momo1435

The old Furka route has only been restored as a museum line with steamlocos and old cars. .

Since last summer there is the "Swiss Alps Classic Express" a tourist train with that runs the complete old route of the Glacier Express including the old Furka line. On Furka Bergstrecke the train is hauled by a MGB HGm 4/4 diesel loco. 

This means that in theory the old route can also be used by regular trains in the case the tunnel is closed. But there is serious limitation to the length and weight of these trains since there's no wires and the infrastructure is not up to the current standards. The modern Glacier Express won't be able to use this route. 

If they will use the old line it will probably only be a shuttle service that connects to the regular MGB trains in Oberwald and Realp.


----------



## StuZealand

Vaud said:


> The Conseil National has approved the CHF6.4 billion to be spent on rail infrastructure. The financing will be done, among other sources, by incrementing the VAT by 0.1% from 2018 to 2030.
> 
> The total amount spent on rail projects will be 7.5 billion, though, since the 1.1 billion spent in Lausanne alone will be financed through the money approved for Rail2000 in 1998 but not yet used.
> 
> The 6.4 billion will be used among other things for Leman2030 including the extension of Geneva's train station, for which the decision on whether it's best to build it underground or on the surface (by destroying some buildings around) will be made public on the 1st of July, although a referendum in canton Geneva is threatening any decision; the fund will only finance 790 million though, the estimated cost for the surface option, so any other variant, if it turns to be more expensive and people vote for it, will need to be financed solely by Geneva.


Does Swiss Federal Railways make a profit, and/or is it required to make a profit? And if it does, is any of the money reinvested back into the network?

If not, does any large capital expenditure like you have posted about simply come from some form of taxation?


----------



## Vaud

^^ they do: 422 Mio CHF profits in 2012 and 339 in 2011. They're owned by the confederation so it really doesn't matter whether they use the money for investments or distribute them as dividends, since infatructure expense will be also covered by taxes at the end.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Vaud said:


> The Conseil National has approved the CHF6.4 billion to be spent on rail infrastructure. The financing will be done, among other sources, by incrementing the VAT by 0.1% from 2018 to 2030.
> 
> The total amount spent on rail projects will be 7.5 billion, though, since the 1.1 billion spent in Lausanne alone will be financed through the money approved for Rail2000 in 1998 but not yet used.


There are two separate groups of projects.

The ZEB/SIF was previously called "Rail 2000, 2° step" and includes projects for 5.4 billions, and it is financed, with openings until 2015. As far I know the money for Lausanne comes from that group, as the Chestenberg tunnel project (between Olten and Zürich) has been delayed and replaced by Lausanne's node.

The FABI/FAIF projects account for 6.4 billions in the first step to be completed also by around 2025 (initially the Federal Council proposed 3.5 billions). This was initially defined as "Rail 2000, 3° step". It includes a new financing system for rail projects (to be used also for the ZEB/SIF) and will become reality only if it is approved by voters likely in 2014. It is a response to the public transport lobby VCS-ATE-ATA's initiative to use directly half of fuel taxes for rail. Voters will have to choose between the initiative, the government's proposal or none (technically, we will vote yes or no to each proposal, and then which one of the two we prefer in the case both are accepted).

In details: http://www.bav.admin.ch/fabi/04053/...O2Yuq2Z6gpJCDen55g2ym162epYbg2c_JjKbNoKSn6A-- and http://www.bav.admin.ch/fabi/04053/index.html?lang=de (DE-FR-IT)

Besides that, 1 billion will be invested to increase clearance on the Gotthard line, for a total of 12.8 billions (in addition to cantonal rail projects like the CEVA, maintenance of existing infrastructure and rolling stock, which are financed separately). The Gotthard line works include replacing or making tunnels higher and are considered a priority (the biggest single project is the new 2.6 km Bözberg tunnel). Also works in Italy will be financed, as a loan or more likely as a gift.



Momo1435 said:


> If they will use the old line it will probably only be a shuttle service that connects to the regular MGB trains in Oberwald and Realp.


In the period around 2020 the Furka base tunnel will be renovated, and closed for some months, so it is possible we will again see a limited regular service on the pass line.



Vaud said:


> ^^ they do: 422 Mio CHF profits in 2012 and 339 in 2011. They're owned by the confederation so it really doesn't matter whether they use the money for investments or distribute them as dividends, since infrastructure expense will be also covered by taxes at the end.


Beside that, there are also subsides for regional traffic (not for "long" distance).


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## Coccodrillo

Some photos of the new Mendrisio-Varese (alias Stabio-Arcisate) line: http://www.cdt.ch/ticino-e-regioni/cronaca/85474/ecco-la-futura-fermata-di-stabio.html

The old Stabio station is here: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Stabi...002806,0.004823&t=h&hnear=Stabio,+Ticino&z=18

The new line diverges shortly after towards Arcisate. The line was planned to open in December 2014, but works in Italy have been delayed and it is not known when they will finish. The Swiss part will (re)open for political reasons on time, but it will be of little use since that first section will be short (3.8 km) and will add only one station to the network. Stabio has only 4.500 inhabitants but it is hoped to attract commuter via a park&ride. I wonder how will this line be served in this first phase, if with direct trains from Bellinzona, or Como-Chiasso as will be when the line will be fully opened or if with a shuttle from Mendrisio.

There was a line, opened just from 1926 to 1928, from Mendrisio, Stabio and Castellanza in Italy, but the border section has been closed by the fascist regime just after two years. The two sections continued to operate until at least the 1950s, and later for freight only. A tourist service operates from Mendrisio to Malnate, on a section of line located also in Italy but with no link to other lines.

The two lines shares the first 4 km section that is being double tracked and electrified (it had never been closed to freight). Current will change from 15 kV 16,7 Hz AC to 3 kV DC at the border.


----------



## Vaud

Today the CFF, the city and canton of Geneva as well as the confederation have finally released the report with the study on the adequacy of the surface vs underground versions for the extension of Geneva's main railway station. 

This report was ordered since the initially preferred version of the CFF, the surface version, has generated some opposition from the local inhabitants since it meant tearing down some buildings around. Nevertheless, the CFF preferred that since according to them this variant would cost 790 million francs, which was supposed to be cheaper than the 2nd option; Geneva at first remained silent but given the opposition it also started complaining for the fact that the 790 million only accounted for the construction of the new tracks, but Geneva would have had to pay all the urban modifications, which meant that the price difference between both versions maybe wasn't that big. In any case the CFF couldn't provide a figure for the total cost of the underground version, and so finally it was agreed to produce an independent report clarifying which version was better.

The conclusion as presented today is that both the cantonal and federal authorities prefer the underground version, mainly because it also allows an easier extension in the future compared to a surface version whose extension would be almost impossible.

The cost is estimated at 1,200 million, and therefore Geneva will have to pay 400 million since the confederation will only contribute 790 million through FAIF (although this has yet to be approved).

The best option chosen from the expert consists in building the new tracks and platform underneath the french section. That is hardly any news since the other side is more constrained by the shopping mall. 

The official news release by CFF: http://www.cff.ch/groupe/medias/communiques.newsdetail.2013-7-0507_1.html

Initially the CFF proposed a figure of 1,700 millions for the underground version, which clearly shows they just mentioned a random figure. However Geneva already said that it would have had to pay 500 million for all the urban rebuilding.* That means the underground version is actually cheaper.*

Some images:


















In red, the proposed underground extension, in blue the future potential extension:









The schema of utilisation:








As seen, initially the new tracks would only be used for trains incoming from Lausanne and going to the airport. In the future that could be extended for all trains departing to Switzerland, whilst the CEVA could have its own dedicated tracks.

This can be better seen here:


----------



## Sunfuns

Is it not already too late for major changes?


----------



## Vaud

Sunfuns said:


> Is it not already too late for major changes?


Not at all, the canton still has 2 years.

As for the 400 millions Geneva would have to contribute, I read yesterday in the newspaper the following: If the surface version had been chosen, the CFF would have had to build by 2030 two sauts-de-mouton (flying junction). This won't be necessary with the underground version, therefore on the long-term both versions would cost the same to the confederation; apparently 300 million have already been budgeted for the saut-de-mouton in Châtelaine which will be no longer necessary, so the cantonal authorities are fairly confident that they won't need to make any major contribution; they might also try to force the city of Geneva to contribute something in case there's some amount left to pay since the urban rebuilding would have run on the city's budget.

I explain this because this will require Genevan voters approval, so the lower the price the more likely it is for the project to be given green light.


----------



## hans280

Vaud said:


> All the projects:


Thanks for the pic, Vaud. (Er... Vaud? Are you from Lausanne?) I have a question, though: is any of this connected with what we can call "highspeed rail"? I seem to remember that, in earlier Swiss discussions, attempts to use FinOV funds and other railway money to link up with the Gotthardt and Loetschberg tunnels were blocked. They were blocked by Christoph Blocher (next time the Swiss have a problem with exports they should export this "man"....) and his followship of ayatollahs in Central Switzerland. I fear a bit, from your map, that the compas is still pointed in that direction? Commuter rails in Toggenburg - but no real, international train lines?


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## Rayancito

What is the expected final duration between Geneva and Zurich? it takes actually 2 h 38 m.......


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## Coccodrillo

It should decrease to around 2h15, but not in the first phase of the FAIF project (the one presented by Vaud). Note however that most traffic in Switzerland is between nearby cities, so a no-stop Zürich-Geneva train would not carry a lot of people even if these are the first and second cities by size. Remember also that there are 3+1 official languages and this reduces a little traffic between regions (although not that much like between France and Italy via the Alps, for instance). Most traffic (road and rail) is between Geneva and Lausanne, and in the Bern-Basel-Zürich triangle.


----------



## Rayancito

Coccodrillo said:


> It should decrease to around 2h15, but not in the first phase of the FAIF project (the one presented by Vaud). Note however that most traffic in Switzerland is between nearby cities, so a no-stop Zürich-Geneva train would not carry a lot of people even if these are the first and second cities by size. Remember also that there are 3+1 official languages and this reduces a little traffic between regions (although not that much like between France and Italy via the Alps, for instance). Most traffic (road and rail) is between Geneva and Lausanne, and in the Bern-Basel-Zürich triangle.


 What about traffic from Lyon and sorrounding regions towards Zurich, is it minimum, also? How many connections by plane exits between Lyon and Zurich?


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## Coccodrillo

With http://www.skyscanner.ch/ I found 4 Zürich-Lyon flights for tomorrow.

I don't know the traffic but by train going via the LGV Rhin-Rhône and Basel is certainly quicker.


----------



## Rayancito

Coccodrillo said:


> With http://www.skyscanner.ch/ I found 4 Zürich-Lyon flights for tomorrow.
> 
> I don't know the traffic but by train going via the LGV Rhin-Rhône and Basel is certainly quicker.


 Well Lyon Zurich is served by a train with transfer in Geneva, unsless i am wrong. If there are 4 planes, that is a traffic that could be taken by the train if the internal trip in Switzerland gets better and the train is a direct train, with stops but no transfers. Probably the 20 minutes that can be achived with the upgrade of the line Geneva Zurich that you indicated and the lack of transfer will allow the train to take half of the passengers of the planes, because the time will be aproximately 4 hours wich is a competitive time with the plane, if there are no transfers.


----------



## K_

Rayancito said:


> Well Lyon Zurich is served by a train with transfer in Geneva, unsless i am wrong. If there are 4 planes, that is a traffic that could be taken by the train if the internal trip in Switzerland gets better and the train is a direct train, with stops but no transfers. Probably the 20 minutes that can be achived with the upgrade of the line Geneva Zurich that you indicated and the lack of transfer will allow the train to take half of the passengers of the planes, because the time will be aproximately 4 hours wich is a competitive time with the plane, if there are no transfers.


Removing the transfer would not make a big difference. I don't think there ever will be direct trains from Zürich to Lyon. Its after all impossible to have direct trains to everywhere. However, a bit of speeding up on both legs, and tighter connections in Geneve might indeed be achieveable.


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## Rayancito

K_ said:


> Removing the transfer would not make a big difference. I don't think there ever will be direct trains from Zürich to Lyon. Its after all impossible to have direct trains to everywhere. However, a bit of speeding up on both legs, and tighter connections in Geneve might indeed be achieveable.


 This is not everywhere to everywhere, it is Lyon to Zurich, which has 4 daily connections, already, besides such a train with stop in Geneva will make both services, Lyon Geneva and Geneva Zurich, without spending more money, this is exactly what they do in every country, to make long trips as a combination of others, at no additional cost.


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## Vaud

^^ I also fly -albeit rarely- between... Geneva and Zurich, even though there are plenty of trains. The reason is obviously the tranfers - for instance, those who go from Lyon to Zurich airport to fly with Swiss to San Francisco will keep flying between both cities, no matter how many trains connect both cities. That probably accounts for at least half the pasangers of those 4 flights, and 2 flights do not justify a direct train connection. 

Better coordination of trains in Geneva would be helpful though and that would cost nothing. However I doubt it would make much of a difference - Zurich and Lyon are sufficiently apart to justify air connections, unless both were fully connected by TGV, but prospects are that's not gonna happen ever.

It would be interesting to discuss whether the CFF could do something like SNCF or DB and be a partner of Swiss to bring connecting passangers to Zurich, though.


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## Suburbanist

How well connected is Zürich Flughafen by rail from places other than Zürich? More like Frankfurt or Schiphol or more like München or Malpensa (only S-Bahn/regio trains)


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## Coccodrillo

Zürich airport is served by all InterCity and InterRegio trains going to eastern Switzerland (Kreuzlingen/Romanshorn/St Gallen), and all of these come from the two east-west routes (Geneva-Zürich via Bern or Biel-Bienne, and the branch from Valais-Wallis). In addition there are an hourly train to Lucerne, one to Basel and S-Bahn trains. Basically all major Swiss cities have at least an hourly direct train to Zürich Flughafen, except Sion, Delémont, Chur, and the three in Ticino (Bellinzona/Locarno/Lugano), and all of them except Lugano (and maybe Chur?) are under 50.000 inhabitants in the agglomeration.



Rayancito said:


> This is not everywhere to everywhere, it is Lyon to Zurich, which has 4 daily connections, already, besides such a train with stop in Geneva will make both services, Lyon Geneva and Geneva Zurich, without spending more money, this is exactly what they do in every country, to make long trips as a combination of others, at no additional cost.


It is not easy as it seems, as Lyon-Geneva trains are often a single 4-car single deck EMU, while Geneva-Zürich trains are either 7 or 14 car single deck tilting EMUs (every 60' via Biel-Bienne) or 10-13 double deck coaches (every 60' via Bern, they might reach 16 coaches in the next decade). So it wouldn't be easy to build a compromise vehicle adapted to both services (it doesn't exist now), and remember that SBB's double deck trains existing or on order are too high to run in France.

(note that trains from Lyon are sometimes composed by three 4-car EMUs, that in Bellegarde split, likely to two to Annemasse and one to Geneva)


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## webeagle12

SBB launches Re460 overhaul programme

SWISS Federal Railways (SBB) is planning heavy overhauls on its entire fleet of 119 Re460 electric locomotives by 2022 in a SFr 230m ($US 238m) programme which will be carried out at the SBB workshops in Yverdon-les-Bains.

Preparations are already underway, and the first prototype is due to be finished at the end of 2015. In addition to a full repaint and installation of an upgraded driver's cab, the locomotives will be equipped with new power converters to reduce energy consumption and new compressors.

The 200km/h four-axle Re460 has been the backbone of SBB's long-distance fleet since the early 1990s. Built by a Swiss consortium of SLM and ABB the locomotives were introduced as part of the Rail 2000 project to modernise train services and increase capacity on the Swiss mainline network. The refurbishment programme is expected to extend their operating life by 20 years.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...hes-re460-overhaul-programme.html?channel=542


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## Vaud

CEVA news

The old 19th century railway station of Chêne-Bourg, which is a protected building, has been moved today 40 meters to allow the construction of the CEVA















this is how the pull the building:


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## bagus70

^^ What is CEVA?


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## Momo1435

^^
A new raillink in Geneva.

http://www.sbb.ch/en/corporation/the-company/projects/upgrading-the-rail-network/ceva.html


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## Coccodrillo

A very nice video showing how looks like the Simplon Tunnel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_oZE-W9mLQ

It is not just a cabride, it also shows the service rooms and she water springs.

The tunnel runs between Brig (CH) and Iselle (I) stations and is split between Switzerland and Italy, but it is entirely managed and owned by (or just conceded to?) SBB (this section of line is "Swiss" up a point just before the switches of Iselle station, which belongs to RFI). Between Iselle and Domodossola the line belongs to RFI (Italian infrastructure manager), but is mostly run following Swiss regulations (signalling, electric current, ...) so that trains complying with usual RFI standards cannot run there. Iselle was too cramped to be a border station, so the only alternative to Domodossola would have been Brig (also in a wide valley floor). A reason why Domodossola has been chosen instead of Brig might be that the other main Swiss-Italian border station of Chiasso is in Switzerland. Also on the two Italy-France main lines the border stations stand on opposite sides: Ventimiglia (coastal route) is in Italy, Modane (Fréjus railway) is in France.

For a tunnel opened in 1906 is also quite modern, with two tubes connected with cross passages and tunnels linking the two tubes in the middle, much like a modern tunnel. Sure, the walkways on the side of the tracks are narrow for modern standards. The tunnel is 20 km long.


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## KingNick

According to this article (http://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/e...-2000-2011-europes-rail-network-is-shrinking/) Switzerland expanded their railway network by 11 % since 2000. Meaning some 550 km new rail were to be built since then. Hard to believe for me. All the projects right now I can think of are:

45 km https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattstetten–Rothrist_new_line
35 km https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lötschberg_Base_Tunnel
6 km https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adlertunnel
19 km https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vereina_Tunnel

Which 450 kilometers am I missing?


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## Suburbanist

Does it count the takeover of smaller rail companies?


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## Vaud

Coccodrillo said:


> A very nice video showing how looks like the Simplon Tunnel:


What are the things in minute 13 and minute 14'30'' they take so much care of?


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## Coccodrillo

^^ Good question. I doubt it's something related to signalling, maybe something about emergency lighting or tubes/pumps transporting away spring water?



KingNick said:


> Which 450 kilometers am I missing?


The Lötschberg base line is around 40 km long, the Vereina line is 22 km long, then there are the first part of the Zimmerberg base tunnel (10 km), the new line replacing the old single track one between Yverdon and Neuchâtel (10 km), then some trams and Lausanne metro M2, adding the under construction lines like the CEVA, the DML, the new Gotthard and Ceneri tunnels. Adding these and any other new track, even tramways, we might reach 300 km. But how 550?


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## KingNick

Gotthard and Ceneri must not be taken into consideration as they did not become operational before 2011. It's clear to me now though. The article is bollocks.


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## Suburbanist

What are chances of the Swiss extending the railway from Scuol into Austria (no major Alpine tunnel needed, since there is a valley there)to Landeck, and then maybe a short tunnel + branch to Merano (Italy)?


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## Momo1435

^^ Currently there's zero chance that that line will be constructed in the near future. 

The plans are already 100 years old and it never resulted in the construction of the line. The last study into the line by the Kanton Graubünden was published last year. The result was that this plan was designated as a category C project. This is the category of projects that are currently too expensive. In this case it's not so much the construction costs but the operation costs that played the biggest role in the long term postponement of the plan. 

http://www.suedostschweiz.ch/zeitung/bleibt-bahn-scuol-landeck-fuer-immer-wunschtraum


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## Coccodrillo

Some photos taken today from the Mendrisio-Varese railway (also known as Stabio-Arcisate) and from the Valmorea railway, the line from which the previous one diverges. Actually these photos shows the doubling and electrification of the firsts 4 km of the Valmorea line.

For more info of these lines look at the previous page ( http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=104228500&postcount=1172 ).

Note the deep trench, seeing it directly it looked even deeper.










From here a third track starts, to allow shunting movements from an intermodal terminal.

Position on Google Maps: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Stabi...54324&oq=Stabio&t=h&hnear=Stabio,+Ticino&z=18










Only the shunting track is already in service, for the freight terminal and tourist traffic.










On the left the Valmorea line wit the switches of the last industrial siding in the background, on the right the new line to Varese. The tracks are temporary, because the line was never closed (for long time) during the works.










The Switzerland (background)-Italy (foreground) border. Until some months ago this gate was still intact, and opened and closed at the passage of every train, despite the footpath on the left the fact that this line (owned by Ferrovie Nord) is not connected to other Italian railways.










Malnate railway station. From here the tourist line might be restored to Castiglione Olona, from where the trackbed has been converted to a cycle path. Rolling stock is a Tigerli shunting locomotive followed by some Gotthardbahn coaches, with a non original interior (there are tables and a bar, while these coaches were initially built for regular transport).

The town of Malnate has another station on the Milano-Varese-Laveno line, which still has regular traffic, whose bridge can be seen in the background.

Position on Google Maps: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Malna...hnear=Malnate,+Varese,+Lombardia,+Italia&z=18


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## KingNick

Guardia di Finanza already waiting behind the border. :lol:


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## Coccodrillo

^^ Yes, the Guardia was always here to open the gate before and close it after the passage of each train, even if from a practical point of view it made little sense as the fence near the gate is interrupted since ages and when there are no trains planned there is nobody controlling the footpath going through the fence (there are some random checks though).

I would assume that no burglar or smuggler is stupid enough to cross the border taking that train, although on the main rail and road border crossings at Chiasso the two border police regularly arrest some smugglers (carrying drug or money).


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## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> *I would assume that no burglar or smuggler is stupid enough to cross the border taking that train*, although on the main rail and road border crossings at Chiasso the two border police regularly arrest some smugglers (carrying drug or money).


But is it so stupid? I'm not familiar with the situation on the Italian border, but occasionally I take S-Bahn from Basel over the German border to Lorrach or ICE to Freiburg and I've never been approached by customs on these trains. They often walk through the long distance train looking for suspicious persons, but I don't think I've seen them even once on the S-Bahn. 

If I was a smuggler I'd take the local train Sunday morning :lol:


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## Coccodrillo

^^ That's what I was saying (or just thinking?). From a smuggler's point of view, going where policemen always are is not so intelligent, but apparently is what they do...or it is just that there is a much bigger number of smuggler we are not aware of?

For instance there are often Italians being caught carrying money or gold through the A2 at Chiasso (both ways), but there are many uncontrolled road border crossings nearby...


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## Suburbanist

When I was moving from Italy to Netherlands and bringing on a large SW car a lot of boxes (mainly books), I drove via the Passo Spluga. It was early on the morning (7am I think, I had left Chiavenna very early), the Guardia di Finanzia stopped me some 4km before the border, they asked about the contents of the boxes, were not satisfied with me saying there were books, brought a scanner and looked over my suitcases as well


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## Momo1435

So much for Schengen. 

The gate is of course more a fine example of some good old fashioned bureaucracy then it's an example of an active border patrol.


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## Sunfuns

Only passport control is abolished on Swiss-EU borders, customs still operates. It used to be that everyone had to show his/her passport/ID card when crossing into or out of Switzerland. That is no longer the case.


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## K_

Momo1435 said:


> So much for Schengen.


Schengen has nothing to do with it.


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## earthJoker

Momo1435 said:


> So much for Schengen.


I have to say it again. Schengen have nothing to do with customs.


----------



## bagus70

Sunfuns said:


> Only passport control is abolished on Swiss-EU borders, customs still operates. It used to be that everyone had to show his/her passport/ID card when crossing into or out of Switzerland. That is no longer the case.


So does it mean that there are no passport checking between Switzerland and EU? That's great then.


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## earthJoker

Just flew to Cologne and back on Tuesday, no passport controls.


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## TedStriker

earthJoker said:


> I have to say it again. Schengen have nothing to do with customs.


So you're saying the fact that the UK is not part of the Schenden area has nothing to do with the reason why there are customs checks made on Eurostar passengers in London, Paris and Brussels?


----------



## earthJoker

TedStriker said:


> So you're saying the fact that the UK is not part of the Schenden area has nothing to do with the reason why there are customs checks made on Eurostar passengers in London, Paris and Brussels?


There are no customs between EU countries, what you mean are immigration and security checks. A different thing.


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## TedStriker

earthJoker said:


> There are no customs between EU countries, what you mean are immigration and security checks. A different thing.


I see. 

And thanks.


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## Suburbanist

earthJoker said:


> There are no customs between EU countries, what you mean are immigration and security checks. A different thing.


And let's remember Switzerland unfortunately is not part of the EU (yet). While there are many treaties and protocols, Switzerland is not part of the customs union of EU.


----------



## earthJoker

Suburbanist said:


> And let's remember Switzerland *unfortunately* is not part of the EU (*yet*).


:slap:

The EU is currently not really in the shape to say such things


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## StuZealand

Suburbanist said:


> And let's remember Switzerland unfortunately is not part of the EU (yet). While there are many treaties and protocols, Switzerland is not part of the customs union of EU.


From what I've read and heard, the Swiss are quite happy to not be in the EU.


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## K_

StuZealand said:


> From what I've read and heard, the Swiss are quite happy to not be in the EU.


And quite a few citizens of EU countries wish their country wasn't a part either... As it stands the idea of Switzerland joining the EU is dead. No politician who cares about still having someone vote for him in the next election dares suggesting it...


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## TedStriker

^^

But it will happen one day, I'm sure. 

A bit like the day a human will walk on Mars.


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## Sunfuns

It would happen if there was something extra to be gained from it for the Swiss. Right now I can't think of anything at all...


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## TedStriker

Sunfuns said:


> It would happen if there was something extra to be gained from it for the Swiss. Right now I can't think of anything at all...


Membership will give the Swiss the right to be part of the new, future EU army (led by the British) which will go off and defend (invade) hot countries around the world.


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## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> It would happen if there was something extra to be gained from it for the Swiss. Right now I can't think of anything at all...



From a railway point of view, it would force the creation of separate entities to manage the Swiss rail system, breaking the monopoly as it currently exists on SBB-operated tracks.


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## earthJoker

TedStriker said:


> Membership will give the Swiss the right to be part of the new, future EU army (led by the British) which will go off and defend (invade) hot countries around the world.



Cool :guns1:


----------



## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> From a railway point of view, it would force the creation of separate entities to manage the Swiss rail system, breaking the monopoly as it currently exists on SBB-operated tracks.


Switzerland already has the best train system in Europe. Hardly needs any "help" on that account :lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> Switzerland already has the best train system in Europe. Hardly needs any "help" on that account :lol:


The best?

Average speed on Swiss railways is less than that of Netherlands, UK and lags badly the average speed of scheduled Spanish trains.

The Swiss build neat tunnels, but separating the infrastructure from operation wouldn't interfere with that.


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## earthJoker

Suburbanist said:


> The best?
> 
> Average speed on Swiss railways is less than that of Netherlands, UK and lags badly the average speed of scheduled Spanish trains.


He said the best, not the fastest.


----------



## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> The best?
> 
> Average speed on Swiss railways is less than that of Netherlands, UK and lags badly the average speed of scheduled Spanish trains.
> 
> The Swiss build neat tunnels, but separating the infrastructure from operation wouldn't interfere with that.





earthJoker said:


> He said the best, not the fastest.


Exactly! Speed of intercity services is not outstanding but still adequate given how mountainous the country is, but where the network really separates itself from competitors is density of network (very few places one can't reach with rail), density of service (rarely worse than once per hour), punctuality and interconnectivity both with other trains and with post bus system (waiting times more than 15 min are rare and 5 min transfer times could be trusted). 

Maybe Japanese system is as good, but I can't comment as I've never been there.


----------



## StuZealand

TedStriker said:


> Membership will give the Swiss the right to be part of the new, future EU army (led by the British) which will go off and defend (invade) hot countries around the world.


Also Switzerland could pay out shitloads of money (like Germany does) to help bail out other EU members like Greece. :bash:


----------



## Coccodrillo

earthJoker said:


> He said the best, not the fastest.


Considering door to door times, not station to station, is also quite fast.

Beside the easy examples of Bern-Zürich, that requires 1h00 by train and 1h20/1h30 by car, or Zürich-Lugano (2h20 car/2h40 train, in the future 1h50 by train), there are much more self-explaining door to door examples.

Usually car-dependant like to say that only station to station trips with fast IC or HS trains win over the car*, so let's take other examples.

Kehrsatz (Bern)-Zürich Tiefenbrunnen, 1h41 by car and 1h54 by train
Geneva-Langnau, 2h11 by car and 2h19 by train
Delémont-Spiez, 1h34 by car and 1h42 by train

Sure some trips by car are faster:
Riehen BL-Murten FR, 1h21 vs 2h07

And there are desperate cases where car is much faster: Bignasco TI-Sonvico TI, 1h30 vs 2h50, but even there the public option is usable, it is offered every hour and could take 20 minutes less if the connections were tighter. Such a trip by public transport in Italy or Spain would take the whole day.

Then there are special cases like Genève-Lugano (3h45 via the Mont Blanc tunnel which has not a parallel railway, 5h30 by train via the Gotthard) or Brig-Bern (1h05 by train, 2h10 by car), but they cannot be considered as example as one infrastructure there is much better than the other.

*I suppose Suburbanist is among those people, but curiously he also likes to propose "improvements" that would increase door to door travel times by public transport with some ticketing complications that together would make train travel unattractive - despite a theoretical 10 minute saving on the fastest section...


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> *I suppose Suburbanist is among those people, but curiously he also likes to propose "improvements" that would increase door to door travel times by public transport with some ticketing complications that together would make train travel unattractive - despite a theoretical 10 minute saving on the fastest section...


Are you referring to my idea of adopting RFID cards (like the Netherlands has adopted) and putting fare gates on major stations to create "passenger-only" areas? That wouldn't increase total travel time, provided the physical adaptation s for creating transfer tunnels/concourses and, where necessary, extra are for gate processing was done. 

In any case, Ticino is the cantone that suffers most with rail isolation from the rest of Switzerland. I keep thinking whether they could build a much faster Locarno-Domodossola railway so that people can travel from Ticino to Valais via Italy + Sempione tunnel.

There is also the case for a Geneve-Bern high-speed rail.


----------



## K_

StuZealand said:


> Also Switzerland could pay out shitloads of money (like Germany does) to help bail out other EU members like Greece. :bash:


Switzerland is actually contributing to bailing out Greece. Switzerland is actually a net contributor to the EU.

If Switzerland were to join the EU not that much would change for Switzerland. A lot would change fr the EU however. It would almost come to a standstill...


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Considering door to door times, not station to station, is also quite fast.
> 
> Beside the easy examples of Bern-Zürich, that requires 1h00 by train and 1h20/1h30 by car, or Zürich-Lugano (2h20 car/2h40 train, in the future 1h50 by train), there are much more self-explaining door to door examples..


People often forget that there are actually two Switzerlands.

There is the industrialized, urbanized central area, which basically runs from Geneva to Romanshorn. In this area the railways function as a urban mass transit system, and they are the mountains, where the railways and buses mostly serve the purpose of transporting tourists in and out. 
In the central area the trains actually run quite fast, and on average are faster then in The Netherlands, regardless of what Suburbanist claims. In the mountains they are slower, but still user friendly and reliable. Tourists are usually not tat in a hurry.
In both roles the system perform very well, and it is the envy of many. The market share of public transport in Switzerland is growing, and will grow further as the "public transit generation" grows up.
One reason of the success of Swiss public transit is that the Swiss understand the importance of psychology in transport planning. Time is relative. Reliability and punctuality are more important then speed. A service that takes 40 minutes and runs every half hour is subjectively perceived as faster then one that runs every two hours, but only takes 25 minutes.
People enjoy being on a train more then at a station. 

I'm typing this as I'm on my way from Bern to Adelboden. This involves taking two trains ad one bus, with transfers of under 10 minutes each time. And that on one ticket. It's slower then a car, but if I'd go to Adelboden by car I wouldn't be able to walk to Lenk and return from there. Not having a car is so convenient I keep finding out every day.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> There is also the case for a Geneve-Bern high-speed rail.


There is a case, however there are other investments that have a stronger case... It's not because something looks sexy on paper it should be done...


----------



## Sunfuns

For geographical and historical reasons Ticino is less well connected to the rest of the country than other cantons. Connections to central and northern areas are good and will be excellent once the Gotthard base tunnel is open, but there are no connections competitive with driving to Graubunden or Geneva/Lausanne area. Potential traffic is minimal, however, and costs of building something very high so I don't see it changing any time soon. 

Sure it would be great if some of the existing routes could be sped up a bit. Basel-Geneva via Delemont would be my pick for abnormally slow service. However currently the biggest issue is insufficient capacity on the most popular routes (Zurich-Bern and Geneva-Lausanne) so further investment there makes most sense. 

As for strengths it's not only that most routes have half hourly service, but also that it runs from early morning to very late at night every day. In some countries and on some routes the last service runs at 9 pm or even earlier on holidays and if you are for some reason late you are stuck. Almost happened for us earlier this year in South Italy...


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Are you referring to my idea of adopting RFID cards (like the Netherlands has adopted) and putting fare gates on major stations to create "passenger-only" areas? That wouldn't increase total travel time, provided the physical adaptation s for creating transfer tunnels/concourses and, where necessary, extra are for gate processing was done.


What you are saying is basically what is planned, but I was referring to idiot things (given the situation of Switzerland) like mandatory reservation or competition within the market. They wouldn't never work, trips like Bern-Zürich are not much more than urban transport.



K_ said:


> There is a case, however there are other investments that have a stronger case... It's not because something looks sexy on paper it should be done...


As it has been said before, most people leaving Geneva by road or rail end their trip before Bern, so an HSL would either attract few passengers if no-stop, or not give high saving times if with intermediate stations. This doesn't mean that nothing will be done in the far (~2040/2060) future, however.



Sunfuns said:


> For geographical and historical reasons Ticino is less well connected to the rest of the country than other cantons. Connections to central and northern areas are good and will be excellent once the Gotthard base tunnel is open, but there are no connections competitive with driving to Graubunden or Geneva/Lausanne area. Potential traffic is minimal, however, and costs of building something very high so I don't see it changing any time soon.


In the 70s-80s many different alternatives were evaluated for AlpTransit, most not following existing railways or main roads, quite a few even proposing completely new routes. One was Ziegelbrücke GL-Trun GR-Biasca TI, others considered the Splügen pass with a branch to Bellinzona and one to Colico-Lecco (Italy), another was Lugano-Locarno-Meiringen-Bern/Luzern.

The latter, called Gotthard West/Gottardo Ovest, would have speed up a lot connections from Ticino to Bern and as side effect Romandie, while still giving good travel times from Ticino to Luzern and Zürich. I liked that option more than the tunnels under construction now, a disadvantage being less time savings to Pfäffikon SZ and St. Gallen.

An alternative would be the construction of a chord in Gallarate linking the Mendrisio-Varese and Simplon lines, and the introduction of direct Lugano-Simplon-Lausanne-Geneva trains, but this is not even planned.


----------



## earthJoker

Suburbanist said:


> In any case, Ticino is the cantone that suffers most with rail isolation from the rest of Switzerland. I keep thinking whether they could build a much faster Locarno-Domodossola railway so that people can travel from Ticino to Valais via Italy + Sempione tunnel.


The Centovalli route is not really an option for a faster track. To much height difference on both sides. A new track along the right shore of the Laggo Maggiore would be great indeed, but most of the track would be on Italian clay. I am not really sure if Switzerland should invest in such a project.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ As I said, a chord here would already give quite some benefits for an acceptable cost: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Galla...Gallarate,+Varese,+Lombardia,+Italia&t=m&z=15

A fast line Locarno-Domodossola is obviously out of question. Only such chord might be affordable, and again, it is not for tomorrow.


----------



## earthJoker

If Italy manages to finish their part of the Mendrisio-Varese line.


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## Sunfuns

Has there been a plan to straighten and double track Basel-Delemont-Biel route? A lot could be gained there with some modest tunnelling. The route could then also be used for fast trains from Germany to Geneva or Lausanne.


----------



## Vaud

Sunfuns said:


> Has there been a plan to straighten and double track Basel-Delemont-Biel route? A lot could be gained there with some modest tunnelling. The route could then also be used for fast trains from Germany to Geneva or Lausanne.


No, at least not before 2025. AFAIK they're even studying diverting trains Basel-Geneva throu Bern. There's even been a huge public outcry in Delémont since the CFF announced they would suspend direct Geneva-Basel services stopping in their city.


----------



## Sunfuns

That's too bad. Would also be good for Jura canton, which I believe is still among the least developed places in Switzerland.


----------



## earthJoker

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ As I said, a chord here would already give quite some benefits for an acceptable cost: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Galla...Gallarate,+Varese,+Lombardia,+Italia&t=m&z=15


I just looked at the map again. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a train hub at the airport Malpensa? You could have trains to Torino, Milano, Lugano-Zürich, Brig-Geneva and Brig-Bern all connecting at that spot. It would avoid to go over Milano Centrale for all those connections.


----------



## Coccodrillo

earthJoker said:


> If Italy manages to finish their part of the Mendrisio-Varese line.


They will, that's sure (because of political reasons and the advanced status of works), the question is when. Maybe mid-2015, instead of end 2014.

As for Malpensa Airport, creating a rail hub here is/was an option. Today its railway station is accessible only from the south and Milano Cadorna, but there are plans to connect it also from the north, linking the airport in the directions of Varese-Mendrisio and the Simplon, and to build a link to the Gallarate-Rho Fiera-Milano line.


----------



## K_

Sunfuns said:


> Has there been a plan to straighten and double track Basel-Delemont-Biel route? A lot could be gained there with some modest tunnelling. The route could then also be used for fast trains from Germany to Geneva or Lausanne.


I don't think the potential gain for such an upgrade would be that much. And don't forget that the SBB is not primarily interested in speeding up trains. It wants to speed up passengers. And that often involves other things than upgrading lines. 
Furthermore the main purpose of the railways in Switzerland is not providing windfall profits for building firms, like in some other countries...


----------



## K_

earthJoker said:


> I just looked at the map again. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a train hub at the airport Malpensa? You could have trains to Torino, Milano, Lugano-Zürich, Brig-Geneva and Brig-Bern all connecting at that spot. It would avoid to go over Milano Centrale for all those connections.


This makes so much sense that I doubt it will happen... Unless the SBB takes charge.


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> I don't think the potential gain for such an upgrade would be that much. And don't forget that the SBB is not primarily interested in speeding up trains. It wants to speed up passengers. And that often involves other things than upgrading lines.


You won't get a 80-min Geneve-Zürich train unless you build HSR. Simple as that. No matter how much schedule and operation management you thrown it.

At some point speed of trains is the bottleneck in the way of faster passenger travel time.

This is a problem the Swiss face also in local transportation: Zürich, Bern and Basel lack some serious subway system, relying instead on slow trams that are mixed with traffic running at-grade. No matter how much signal priority you give them, you just can't accelerate a train to 90km/h in the middle of a street the way you can speed up a subway in a tunnel... as a reasult, trips in Zürich, Bern, Basel take a long time to complete. 



K_ said:


> This makes so much sense that I doubt it will happen... Unless the SBB takes charge.


----------



## Sunfuns

K_ said:


> I don't think the potential gain for such an upgrade would be that much. And don't forget that the SBB is not primarily interested in speeding up trains. *It wants to speed up passengers.* And that often involves other things than upgrading lines.
> Furthermore the main purpose of the railways in Switzerland is not providing windfall profits for building firms, like in some other countries...


I know, but sometimes speeding up trains and increasing capacity is the right answer. I use this line occasionally and it feels slower than other main lines in Switzerland. I suspect one could gain 20 min easily just on the Basel-Biel segment (slowest part), but if there was such a project that wouldn't be the only advantage. There would also be increased capacity for Basel S-Bahn, possibility to make another connection to the French network near Montbeliard, relieving the already busy Olten-Bern line. Currently we have an hourly service to Zurich taking a bit less than 1 h. Upgrade of this line would allow direct service to Geneva in a bit less than 2 h. 

As for building firms I imagine many are doing exceedingly well on those base tunnel projects :lol:


----------



## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> This is a problem the Swiss face also in local transportation: *Zürich, Bern and Basel lack some serious subway system*, relying instead on slow trams that are mixed with traffic running at-grade. No matter how much signal priority you give them, you just can't accelerate a train to 90km/h in the middle of a street the way you can speed up a subway in a tunnel... as a reasult, trips in Zürich, Bern, Basel take a long time to complete.


Zurich is a borderline case (wasn't there a metro project in the past?), but Bern and Basel are way too small for heavy subway systems. World experience shows that they don't make sense with less than a million people in the urban area.


----------



## K_

flierfy said:


> What you cite here is a modal split based on kilometrage rather than based on the number of trips as Attus' number was. That is a totally different calculation. One mustn't confuse this.


True. When looking at trips public transport is 13.9% train, but looking at kilometers it's 17.3% train. Train is done for the longer distance. Few people commute from Bern to Zürich by car (and none by bus).


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## chornedsnorkack

K_ said:


> Few people commute from Bern to Zürich by car (and none by bus).


Does it mean none in the sense of not a single bus ever scheduled between these cities?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Intercity transport by private buses is not allowed within Switzerland (from/to the country however is), and there is no interest for the state to operate intercity bus lines where there are trains.

The only intercity bus line running via a motorway (actually an autostrasse) is the Bellinzona-Chur, because there is not a direct railway between them.

There are then a few extra "fast" services but with a limited number of trips: Lugano-St Moritz and Lugano-Tirano (connection to the Bernina railway), each a round trip a day during holidays, and Yverdon-Vallorbe (connection tot he TGVs to Paris). There are then a few local bus lines running on motorways for short parts, like one through the Uetliberg tunnel on the A3/A4, or the now closed (replaced by trains) Fribourg-Bulle via the A12.



Suburbanist said:


> Switzerland is a rich country, they can afford to buy cars, even if they are not going to be intensively used as per commuting as they'd be in Italy.





K_ said:


> Zürich is a nice example of "a rich city is one where the rich use public transit, not one where the poor use cars...".


There are around 330 cars per 1000 inhabitants in Basel, compared to around 700 in Rome.


----------



## earthJoker

Coccodrillo said:


> There are around 330 cars per 1000 inhabitants in Basel, compared to around 700 in Rome.


Is that just Basel-City? If so it would be an unfair comparison.


----------



## Suburbanist

*ACCIDENT*: Two trains collided between Moudon and Payern. Apparently it was a head-on collision.


----------



## Vaud

Suburbanist said:


> ACCIDENT: Two trains collided between Moudon and Payern. Apparently it was a head-on collision.


Fortunately it happened as one train was leaving the station and the other was entering m so the speed was low. No victims are reported.

Full story: http://www.tdg.ch/suisse/faits-divers/collision-frontale-deux-trains-broye/story/29443314


----------



## Coccodrillo

earthJoker said:


> Is that just Basel-City? If so it would be an unfair comparison.


Yes it is not so fair, but it shows that even in small cities it is possible to live without a car, not only in enormous cities like Tokyo or New York.


----------



## bolg

Swedish media is reporting that one of the drivers is missing. Has he been accounted for yet?


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Yes it is not so fair, but it shows that even in small cities it is possible to live without a car, not only in enormous cities like Tokyo or New York.


There is an enormous difference between been possible to commute without a car and be possible to live a comfortable mainstream middle-class lifestyle without one. 

There is also a difference between a place being reachable by public transportation and a place have convenient and fast access by public transit.

Some small villages (not talking of Bern of course) in Switzerland do have bus service, however that doesn't mean it is convenient to live there without a car.


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## KingNick

By missing they mean somewhere in that pile of steel?

This looks serious:


----------



## Sunfuns

It is possible to reach any place with 500+ inhabitants with a bus, but of course Suburbanist is right that living in a village outside immediate area of one of the big cities without a car is highly inconvenient and very few people do so. Those who prefer to rely on public transportation move closer to the cities where most of the jobs are anyway.


----------



## bolg

KingNick said:


> By missing they mean somewhere in that pile of steel?


I'm assuming that's the case and not 'seen leaving the scene of the accident'.


----------



## Sunfuns

Why are there suddenly so many rail accidents after years of none at all? Coincidence I assume, but still weird...


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ After every rail accident/plane crash the media seems to discover a lot of them for sometimes. An accident like the one just above probably would have never been reported on a Swedish media, if it happened two months ago before Santiago, Bretigny and Lac Megantic disasters.



bolg said:


> Swedish media is reporting that one of the drivers is missing. Has he been accounted for yet?


Sadly, the fear is that he is dead blocked in one drive cabin.

Both trains are NPZs, the blue one is one of the 6+6 transformed to run in Germany (6 units) or France (the other 6), the white-red is an NPZ upgraded to a Domino.


----------



## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ After every rail accident/plane crash the media seems to discover a lot of them for sometimes. *An accident like the one just above probably would have never been reported on a Swedish media*, if it happened two months ago before Santiago, Bretigny and Lac Megantic disasters.


Not sure about that, particularly if there are casualties. Fortunately even moderately serious rail accidents in the developed world are rare enough to be reportable news.


----------



## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> Both trains are NPZs, the blue one is one of the 6+6 transformed to run in Germany (6 units) or France (the other 6), the white-red is an NPZ upgraded to a Domino.


What is NPZ?

Anyone here familiar with the region and this particular line? I've never been in that area myself...


----------



## bolg

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ After every rail accident/plane crash the media seems to discover a lot of them for sometimes. An accident like the one just above probably would have never been reported on a Swedish media, if it happened two months ago before Santiago, Bretigny and Lac Megantic disasters.
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly, the fear is that he is dead blocked in one drive cabin.
> 
> Both trains are NPZs, the blue one is one of the 6+6 transformed to run in Germany (6 units) or France (the other 6), the white-red is an NPZ upgraded to a Domino.


I'd say a head-on collision in Europe will draw our media's attention any day of the week. I'm not so sure about all those damn small incidents with the Dreamliner they keep writing up though.

Sad to hear he's still in the wreckage (even though it isn't unexpected). Hope there won't be more.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Sunfuns said:


> What is NPZ?


The model of the train: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_RBDe_560


----------



## davroca5

How persons are injured now?


----------



## KingNick

Coccodrillo said:


> An accident like the one just above probably would have never been reported on a Swedish media, if it happened two months ago before Santiago, Bretigny and Lac Megantic disasters.


The very same accident basically happened in Vienna this January. Pretty sure there was no European country where this was not in the media.


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> * the RBS, except the last double track section near Solothurn (because on the Berne side some decades ago there was some street running)


The RBS actually runs on the right from Bern to Zollikofen, and then on the left from Zollikofen to Jegenstorf. On the double track section in Bätterkinden trains also run on the left. Don't know yet what they'll do on the new secction in Bibberist once that is finished.

Don't know what they'll do once the whole network is double tracked. On the line to Worb running on the right makes sense, but on the line to Solothurn running on the left migth be more usefull... This because of the location of the passenger facilities, in relition to the dominant passenger flows.


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> Maybe it helps if you know what it means:
> R : "Rapide", means that the train can travel according to the R speed profile.
> ABD : Has first (A), second (B) accomodation, and a luggage compartment (D). Third class (C) isn't used anymore. The letters ABCD always get put in alphabetical order
> e : electric
> 
> Then comes the class: 500. Previously SBB would put there the number of powered/non powered axles. So in the old style this would have been a RABDe 8/28


Not powered/nonpowered, but powered/total. Otherwise Re 6/6 would have been Re 6/0...


----------



## Sopomon

^^
As it's 7 cars long, it would surely be 8/28 anyway?

7x4 axles is 28, right?


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> Not powered/nonpowered, but powered/total. Otherwise Re 6/6 would have been Re 6/0...


You are correct.

However, SBB has now stopped using this type of designation, as locomotives now have all powered axles, and EMUs aren't regularly used as locomotive anymore...


----------



## Nexis




----------



## steple

> *A world premiere: Starbucks takes to the rails.*
> In a pilot project, two restaurant cars will be converted into mobile Starbucks cafés with a take-away on the lower deck and table service on the upper deck. In addition, the new Starbucks minibar will make its way through the whole train.
> 
> From 21 November 2013, the first double-decker Starbucks will travel twice daily to and from Geneva/Fribourg and St. Gallen, with a second coach set to follow on the same route in spring 2014. Timetable to follow.


----------



## rheintram

Interesting... I am not a big Starbucks fan, but I give SBB credit for trying something new. Imho they were also the first ones to have a rolling McDonald's restaurant.


----------



## steple

Yes, that was in the early 1990s..


----------



## Nexis




----------



## Vaud

steple said:


> Yes, that was in the early 1990s..


That was a fiasco because the smell of fried shit expanded thru all the train uke:


----------



## Vaud

Plenty of pictures of the Geneva main station refurbishment:
Tribune de Genève

Nothing new, but some are impressive, especially the height of the ceiling! I think the station is going to look awesome when they finish. Nothing new, but according to the video next month we should be able to use again the main hall, and by April next year the station should be finished save for the relocation of temporary business (mainly the CFF shop) which should take until September.

Also, aerial pictures of the CEVA works: Tribune de Genève. These are just nice


----------



## Coccodrillo

Nexis said:


>


Only for around two and half years. The regular timetable change with the opning of the base tunnel will be in December 2016, however freight trains will probably start using it during the summer of the same year. From that December, basically only Stadler Flirts will use that line.


----------



## Suburbanist

Question: when will they finish the 2nd track on the Lötschberg tunnel?


----------



## Sunfuns

There are no serious plans for a complete second tube (no pressing need really), but there is a plan to fit out the part of the second tube which has been dug but has no rails or infrastructure. I think that would leave only 1/3 as a single track.


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## Suburbanist

^^ You are quoting your own post #1343


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ sorry, I made a bit of confusion...

See here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=108948655#post108948655


----------



## Sunfuns

Surely everybody understood without it being spelled out that it's Lotschberg base tunnel we were referring to...


----------



## steple

94 m high Sitter viaduct near St. Gallen:


----------



## AlexNL

Awesome.


----------



## bagus70

^^ Is that the highest railway bridge in Switzerland?


----------



## Nexis




----------



## Suburbanist

Waas that Sitter viaduct originally only masonry arches later partially replaced with the central steel structure?


----------



## steple

Yes, the Sitter viaduct is the highest railway bridge in Switzerland (some sources say it's 98 or 99 m high..). The steel structure was there from the beginning, look at these photos:



















source: http://memoria.sg/aufnahmen/kubelstrasse-sitterviadukt

It's not the only bridge there in the narrow valley. On the upper part of the picture the Sitter viaduct, in the middle the bridge of the main line from St. Gallen to Zürich and on the bottom the old and new road bridges:










source: http://www.seniorweb.ch/type/forum-topic/2010-07-18-bruecken?page=1


----------



## Vaud

steple said:


> 94 m high Sitter viaduct near St. Gallen:


I don't think I've evern seen before a 4 FLIRT composition, maybe on BLS but never on CFF. Is it common on the line? are they common services like those operated by BLS where the trains divide afterwards to serve different destinations? edit: sorry, I just noticed these are actually not CFF trains!




Nexis said:


>


Very nice video! kay: it looks so professional!


----------



## Coccodrillo

These Flirts belong to SOB, and are certainly making a test run. In Switzerland there are never in normal service consists of more than two Flirts, all of these with 4+4 coaches (except TILO, which oeprates the only 6-car Swiss Flirts, which also run as 6+4 or -only on a few RE services- 6+6).


----------



## Spam King

Vaud said:


> I don't think I've evern seen before a 4 FLIRT composition, maybe on BLS but never on CFF. Is it common on the line? are they common services like those operated by BLS where the trains divide afterwards to serve different destinations? edit: sorry, I just noticed these are actually not CFF trains!


They look photoshopped in to me, the colour just doesn't seem right.


----------



## thun

^^
They aren't. Of course it isn't the SBB paint scheme as these aren't SBB trains. 
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizerische_Südostbahn


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## Coccodrillo

That's how Göschenen looked like last Saturday. The first photo shows a narrow gauge train waiting to leave for Andermatt, the second is the Gotthard tunnel (the left bore merges with the right one after half a kilometre).




























And then Andermatt.


----------



## steple

And this is how it looks above the clouds, on the Rigibahn:



















All photos by Georg Trüb/railpictures.net


----------



## Suburbanist

Question: are normal train passes accepted for travel on RMB? I know they aren't on the Jungfraubahn, but I don't know about RMB tracks.


----------



## StuZealand

Spam King said:


> They look photoshopped in to me, the colour just doesn't seem right.


I had the exact same impression of that pic. The trains just look too shiny and clean or something.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Question: are normal train passes accepted for travel on RMB? I know they aren't on the Jungfraubahn, but I don't know about RMB tracks.


There is no RMB, but if it is the Rigibahn you are talking about, yes, passes are accepted on that railway.


----------



## K_

StuZealand said:


> I had the exact same impression of that pic. The trains just look too shiny and clean or something.


Well, they're new. You will not often see 4 Flirts mu'ed together, except during tests right after delivery...


----------



## thun

Also keep in mind that the photo obviously was taken on a very cloudy winter day --> diffuse light and probably a lot more of it on top than down in the valley. If you want to get the right exposition on the bridge and the buildings, you'll have to accept overexposure on the trains.


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> There is no RMB, but if it is the Rigibahn you are talking about, yes, passes are accepted on that railway.


Sorry, I was asking about the MAttherhorn Gotthard Bahn.

I was asking out of curiosity. A colleague of mine was planing to travel there with a third-party rail pass that is not accepted there, ans I was wondering whether domestic passes cover the route.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Sorry, I was asking about the MAttherhorn Gotthard Bahn. I was asking out of curiosity. A colleague of mine was planing to travel there with a third-party rail pass that is not accepted there, ans I was wondering whether domestic passes cover the route.


Swiss Pass, GA etc. are valid on the MGB. They are valid on all "public transport", so on any service that serves a place that is permanently settled. 
With Interrail it's more complicated. Quite complicated in fact. With such a pass you get 50% off on MGB


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## steve5

*Letzigraben Bridge, 1156m, 2011 - 2015*

Longest railway bridge of Switzerland:

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/stadt/Das-gelbe-Monster-im-Landeanflug/story/30112613


----------



## Suburbanist

Time-lapse cab-ride Zermatt-Görnergrat






Does anybody know why do they use wooden panels instead of concrete slabs on these avalanche tunnels at 0:25 and 1:10 ?


----------



## XAN_

Maybe they are lighter? Wood are actually a kind of low-technology version of all those fancy lightweight synthetic polymers.


----------



## thun

I'm pretty sure they do demount them for summer season. The only purpose those wood barriers fulfill is that of a snow fence i. e. to keep snow drifted by snow away from the track. Wood is the cheapest and sturdiest way to build a removable barrier. Concrete slabs would be a very stupid choice as you'd probably need a crane to move them.


----------



## Sunfuns

It has been announced that the first stage of Zurich Cross-city ling (Durchmesserlinie) will be officially opened for traffic 200 days from now (June 15th 2014). Initially it will be only for Zurich S-Bahn which will go use the new Weinberg tunnel from Zurich HB to Oerlikon. Intercity trains from East Switzerland to the West (St Gallen to Geneva, for example) will be able to use the link by the end of 2015 and the whole project is slated to be finished in 2018. 

http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/zuerich/uebersicht/noch-200-tage-bis-zum-neuen-bahnhof-1.18192703


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## Suburbanist

thun said:


> I'm pretty sure they do demount them for summer season. The only purpose those wood barriers fulfill is that of a snow fence i. e. to keep snow drifted by snow away from the track. Wood is the cheapest and sturdiest way to build a removable barrier. Concrete slabs would be a very stupid choice as you'd probably need a crane to move them.


I see different possible solutions to the problem:

1. Build a permanent concrete structure (with emergency doors every 50m so that you don't need to make it into a full-fledged tunnel that requires all safety systems.

2. Build a movable steel panel system (that can me hydraulically lifted in place or put underground, panel by panel, as weather conditions require


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## thun

The first one is plain stupid. It's a scenic railway for tourism. Blocking the sight unneccessarily is the dumbest thing you can do.
The second one is just idioticly complicated, unreliable an unneccessarily expensive.


----------



## Stainless

Suburbanist said:


> I see different possible solutions to the problem:
> 
> 1. Build a permanent concrete structure (with emergency doors every 50m so that you don't need to make it into a full-fledged tunnel that requires all safety systems.
> 
> 2. Build a movable steel panel system (that can me hydraulically lifted in place or put underground, panel by panel, as weather conditions require


That is a solution in search of a problem:nuts:


----------



## steple

Vaud said:


> I don't think I've evern seen before a 4 FLIRT composition, maybe on BLS but never on CFF. Is it common on the line? are they common services like those operated by BLS where the trains divide afterwards to serve different destinations? edit: sorry, I just noticed these are actually not CFF trains!


That was a test train last week on 21 and 22 November.. Have a look at the press release from SOB (only in German):



> *Superflirt getestet*
> 
> 28. November 2013
> 
> 
> Die Schweizerische Südostbahn AG (SOB) und Stadler Rail testeten dieser Tage erfolgreich eine aussergewöhnliche Zugkomposition zwischen Herisau und Sargans, eine 4-fach-Traktion.
> 
> 
> Nach der Zulassung der letzten Flirts der zweiten Serie sind nun 23 Flirt-Fahrzeuge bei der SOB im Einsatz. Fahrzeuge der ersten und der zweiten Serie können kombiniert werden. Inwieweit die Befehlsübergabe bei vier Zügen funktioniert, testeten dieser Tage die Spezialisten von Stadler Rail und der SOB. Die 4-fach-Traktion mass 300 Meter Länge und wog 480 Tonnen. Die SOB-Flirts können bei ihrer Fahrt rund um den Säntis bis 160 km/h erreichen und werden ab dem Fahrplanwechsel rund um den Säntis unterwegs sein.
> 
> In der Regel sind zwei Flirts allenfalls drei in Kombination im Einsatz. Die Fahrzeuge sind zwar für die 4-fach-Traktion zugelassen, werden aber kaum je in dieser Komposition regulär eingesetzt werden, zumal auch die Bahnhöfe entlang der Strecke nicht auf derartig lange Züge ausgelegt sind. Nach dem Warum dieser langen Komposition befragt, erläuterte SOB-Projektleiter Hanspeter Schenk: «Wir wollten prüfen, ob die Befehlsübertragung vom bedienten Führerraum über die Leittechnik bis zum Zugschluss funktioniert – und das hat bestens geklappt.»












and from bahnonline.ch


----------



## steple

Durchmesserlinie Zürich DML cross city link update:























































source: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/region/Erste-Fahrt-in-den-UBahnhof-Loewenstrasse/story/20628841


----------



## MajKeR_

steple said:


> That was a test train last week on 21 and 22 November.. Have a look at the press release from SOB (only in German):


Is Stadler planning at least the full replace of Flirt II by Flirt III?


----------



## Vaud

The renovation works of the Geneva train station are reaching the final steps :banana: today the renovated Hall was finally open, although obviously furniture and shops are still missing on one side


----------



## Nexis




----------



## Sunfuns

Today is the date of the annual timetable change in Switzerland. The major news is the establishment of St Gallen S-Bahn network in Eastern Switzerland. The overall effect is about 30% more trains in St Gallen station, half hourly intervals for most connections, 15 min for few busier routes. Few smaller stations will see less connections though because some express routes have been sped up by eliminating less used stops. 

Here is a map of the new network: http://sbahn-sg.ch/fileadmin/Images/S-Bahn-St.Gallen_Liniennetzplan.pdf

Some articles about this new development:
http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/ostschweiz/bahnfahren-in-vollen-zuegen-geniessen-id2567640.html
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Bahn_St._Gallen

You might notice that Appenzeller Bahn is not part of this network. The reason is that because of a steep terrain some routes use rack and pinion (not sure if I translated that correctly) thus limiting speeds and frequencies. There is a plan to fix this by building a tunnel (opening in 2016). From 2014 S3 will be extended once an hour to Bregenz in Austria and from 2015 there will be a tri-national connection from Buchs to Feldkirch (Austria) via Lichtenstein. 

Minor changes in the rest of the Swiss network, the three most noticeable probably being elimination of food carts in the long distance trains (restaurant cars stay), increase of travel time between Zurich and Milan by 20 min (to improve connections they say, but more likely to deal with never ending delays originating in Italy) and temporary introduction of Zurich-Munich buses because of delayed electrification works between Lindau and Munich in Germany.


----------



## rheintram

Already now the Austrian S3 is very well connected with S-Bahn St. Gallen at St. Margrethen (connections ever half an hour during peak times).


----------



## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> From 2014 S3 will be extended once an hour to Bregenz in Austria and from 2015 there will be a tri-national connection from Buchs to Feldkirch (Austria) via Lichtenstein.


Are there plans for building a station within Liechtenstein, then maybe a tramway to Vaduz?


----------



## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> Are there plans for building a station within Liechtenstein, then maybe a tramway to Vaduz?


In principle there are already 3 stations on this route within Lichtenstein with Schaan-Vaduz being the closest to Vaduz itself (3.5 km). By the way Schaan is the largest town in Lichtenstein. I haven't heard about any plans to build any rail transport between those two towns. Probably no need - a simple city bus connection should do just fine. 

Right now the local rail traffic on this route is very low and irregular (5-6 regional trains a day) and the real traffic is done with buses, but as I mentioned all that will change in 2015 when there will be a half hourly S-bahn covering this route. The reason for so few local connections is that a lot of freight and long distance passenger trains between Switzerland and Austria use this single track route.


----------



## Suburbanist

So rail links A <=> CH are as subpar as road links (there are two parallel freeways on both sides, yet they don't have a direct link between both countries).


----------



## Sunfuns

It's not a great link for sure, but the reason it has taken so long to upgrade is that it connects one the least densely populated areas in Switzerland with the same in Austria. There is more than 200 km from St Gallen to Innsbruck, the first sizeable Austrian city, over mountainous landscape.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Yes, the Voralberg Railway is slow and needs improvements to bring Innsbruck and the future Brennero base tunnel within easier reach of Switzerland


----------



## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Yes, the Voralberg Railway is slow and needs improvements to bring *Innsbruck and the future Brennero base tunnel within easier reach of Switzerland*


Why? We'll have our own base tunnel to Italy and much sooner than the one in Austria. Improvements for local traffic are more worthwhile on this route and those will happen.


----------



## StuZealand

Sunfuns said:


> Why? We'll have our own base tunnel to Italy and much sooner than the one in Austria.


Do you mean the CBT?


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> So rail links A <=> CH are as subpar as road links (there are two parallel freeways on both sides, yet they don't have a direct link between both countries).


It's "sub par" only on your imagination (as per usual...)


----------



## K_

Sunfuns said:


> Right now the local rail traffic on this route is very low and irregular (5-6 regional trains a day) and the real traffic is done with buses, but as I mentioned all that will change in 2015 when there will be a half hourly S-bahn covering this route. The reason for so few local connections is that a lot of freight and long distance passenger trains between Switzerland and Austria use this single track route.


There's 18 train pairs on that route, 9 of them stop in Schaan, so it's already somewhat better.


----------



## steple

The former "Train des Vignes" in the vineyards between Vevey and Puidoux-Chexbres near Lausanne, high above the Lake Geneva:





































pictures by Georg Trüb, Peter Hürzeler, Brünig/railpictures.net


----------



## dimlys1994

Today:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/01/07/power-boost-for-zurich-winterthur-corridor/
> 
> *Power boost for Zurich-Winterthur corridor*
> 7 JAN, 2014
> 
> Alstom has begun building a new substation at the Hürlistein rail junction to support increasing demand on the Zurich-Winterthur line in Switzerland.
> 
> The facility, which converts the 132 kV mains power supply to be fed into the overhead catenary system, will ensure that the corridor has adequate traction power in the future to cope with predicted increases in capacity to cope with the growing demand for rail services in the region.
> 
> Alstom was awarded a contract in December to supply the GIS switchgear, the cable equipment, AC/DC auxiliary system and the high- and low-voltage installations.
> 
> The project, which will cost 17.7 million francs and is expected to be completed by the end of 2015, also includes landscaping and civils works.


----------



## Nexis




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## steple

Alp Grüm, January 06, 2014:










by Georg Trüb/railpictures.net


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## steple

The Switzerland 2014 netgraph, showing at a glance almost all train stations in Switzerland, with their arrival and departure times. Effective from December 2013 to mid-June 2014.

http://www.sma-partner.ch/images/stories/NG-CH2014_1.Halbjahr_20131205_v1.2.pdf


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## Coccodrillo

Here the June 2014-December 2014 edition: http://www.sma-partner.ch/images/stories/NG-CH2014_2.Halbjahr_20131205_v1.2.pdf


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## Coccodrillo

[partially OT]

Some time ago I plaided that VFS's song was in English rather than in Swiss languages, and somebody replied that a trilingual song would have been unnatural. Coop proved it is possible: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4YrkbvKjnc

The (still nice) VFS's song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ARrex2umM0


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## Suburbanist

steple said:


> The former "Train des Vignes" in the vineyards between Vevey and Puidoux-Chexbres near Lausanne, high above the Lake Geneva:


What happened to this line?

=============

I have a second question: what are chances of connecting Thonon-les-Bains (F) with Bouveret (CH)? There appears to be a disused rail ROW over there...


----------



## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> What happened to this line?


As far as I know nothing happened, local S-Bahn still runs there. A train named like that probably doesn't exist any more, though.


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## Coccodrillo

The "Train des Vignes" used a RABDe 560 set with a special livrery, which has been rebuilt within the Domino project receiving the standard livrery.

The Thonon-St Gingolph (one station after Le Bouveret) is nicknamed "Tonkin railway" (because its builders thought the local geological conditions were similar to those of the Vietnamese line). The line closed to passengers in 1938, to freight in 1988, to tourist trains in 1998. From time to time somebody propose to reopen it but until now nothing happened really (but in 2010 the line has been cleaned from vegetation). The line on the Swiss side is till in use and ends without a station, just a stop: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=St-Gi...r=St-Gingolph+Saint-Gingolph,+Valais&t=h&z=19

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne_du_Tonkin


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## Vaud

Coccodrillo said:


> The "Train des Vignes" used a RABDe 560 set with a special livrery, which has been rebuilt within the Domino project receiving the standard livrery.


It's a bit more than just that. Up until 2011 the line was owned mostly by the municipalities of Vevey and Chexbres and the canton of Vaud, and Montreux-Oberland Bernois (Golden Pass) operated the service and they had this livery. However MOB requested to be relieved of the management of the line, and then the CFF purchased the line and has been operating it since then. The idea is that if the line is extended to Palézieux, it could link le Chablais (i.e. Vevey, Montreux, Villeneuve, Aigle, Monthey...) with Bern without changing trains in Lausanne.


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## KingNick

So, will we see some trains running through the new GBT once if becomes operational? I mean right now no producer can be bothered to produce a small highly specialised tranche of trains just to meet Switzerland's ridiculous demands.

http://www.limmattalerzeitung.ch/sc...n-zug-fuer-den-gotthard-basistunnel-127575073


----------



## Vaud

^^ doesn't the article say that 4 manufacturers, Alstom, Siemens, Stadler Rail and Talgo, have submitted their offers? The article is in german, so I don't understand it very well


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## Sunfuns

Basically what is being said is that those four manufacturers were invited to bid for 29 new high speed trains back in 2012, but now after they've spent a considerable amount of money SBB board doesn't like any of the offers. What they would like to do is buy some more ETR 610 from Alstom, but the Federal Board of Transportation is against because they are not low floor and thus inaccessible to disabled persons. They are allowed to run on the Simplon route because there the tilting technology offers time savings which negate accessibility argument. On the new route tilting would not be needed and thus this particular model is not allowed. 

The total order amount is 800 million francs so it's unlikely manufacturers will ignore such an opportunity, but it is indeed a bit of a mess at the moment. I'm sure authorities will come up with a solution and there will be adequate trains in 2 1/2 years.


----------



## K_

KingNick said:


> So, will we see some trains running through the new GBT once if becomes operational?


Of course there will be trains running through the GBT. What makes you think there won't be?


----------



## Coccodrillo

The 15 ETR 610 belonging to SBB, plus maybe the 7 of Trenitalia, will be able to use the GBT, in addition to many Switzerland-only EMUs and locomotives, and freight trains.

High floor trains can be made disabled-accessible also with on-board lifts, like the PKP Pendolino or the RailJet.



Vaud said:


> It's a bit more than just that. Up until 2011 the line was owned mostly by the municipalities of Vevey and Chexbres and the canton of Vaud, and Montreux-Oberland Bernois (Golden Pass) operated the service and they had this livery. However MOB requested to be relieved of the management of the line, and then the CFF purchased the line and has been operating it since then. The idea is that if the line is extended to Palézieux, it could link le Chablais (i.e. Vevey, Montreux, Villeneuve, Aigle, Monthey...) with Bern without changing trains in Lausanne.


The Vevey - Puidoux Chexbres lines was owned by a dedicated company (the *VCh*), but as far I know it is operated by SBB since many years (at least the trains - I suppose also the infrastructure as it is isolated from the Golden Pass network and has a different gauge).

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemin_de_fer_Vevey–Chexbres


----------



## Vaud

Coccodrillo said:


> The Vevey - Puidoux Chexbres lines was owned by a dedicated company (the *VCh*)


Yes of course, it's the ownership of that company which in turn owned 100% of the line what I was referring to and which has been sold to CFF.




Coccodrillo said:


> but as far I know it is operated by SBB since many years (at least the trains - I suppose also the infrastructure as it is isolated from the Golden Pass network and has a different gauge).


It's possible, I don't remember the exact details since I speak out of memory from the news articles that appeared around 2011 when the company was sold to the CFF which I guess have since liquidated it, but in any case that's why it had a different livery from the CFF.

Correction, here's the official announcement from the CFF: 



> Les CFF ont officialisé aujourd’hui l’achat des actions de la compagnie de chemin de fer Vevey-Chexbres SA détenues par les communes de Vevey, Chexbres, Puidoux, Rivaz et St-Saphorin.
> 
> La société Compagnie du Vevey-Chexbres SA est propriétaire de la ligne ferroviaire Vevey–Puidoux-Chexbres. Elle est entretenue et exploitée par les CFF. Les deux actionnaires principaux de la société, la Ville de Vevey et le Canton de Vaud, ont souhaité vendre leurs actions aux CFF. Les CFF rachètent également les actions détenues par plusieurs communes de la région ainsi que par des particuliers, portant ainsi à 88,8 pour cent leur participation dans la compagnie.


So yes, you were right.


----------



## flierfy

Sunfuns said:


> What they would like to do is buy some more ETR 610 from Alstom, but the Federal Board of Transportation is against because they are not low floor and thus inaccessible to disabled persons.


It couldn't be possible that Swiss platforms are just unsuitably low, could it.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Every country has its standard for (new) platform heights, in Switzerland, Italy and France (except Paris?) it's 55 cm, in Germany it's 76 cm, in the UK it is around 1 m. Usually a 55 cm platform with low floor trains is not a big problem (however, it is true that for suburban trafic trains with a flat and high floor are better, like in Germany or in the UK - while on 55 cm platforms trains have the floor of varible height, which slow down movement inside).


----------



## XAN_

Coccodrillo said:


> Every country has its standard for (new) platform heights, in Switzerland, Italy and France (except Paris?) it's 55 cm, in Germany it's 76 cm, in the UK it is around 1 m. Usually a 55 cm platform with low floor trains is not a big problem (however, it is true that for suburban trafic trains with a flat and high floor are better, like in Germany or in the UK - while on 55 cm platforms trains have the floor of varible height, which slow down movement inside).


But it still better than 200 mm platforms of many 1520 areas hno:


----------



## alphorn

Vaud said:


> ^^ What's the reason behind Lugano? For the same reason as Geneva, I don't know why making Lugano part of the horaire cadencé (sorry what's the name in english?) is worth for


The name is "interval timetable", but that's incomplete, not every interval timetable lets trains meet in stations. That is called "Integraler Taktfahrplan" in German, I think there's no term for that in English.

The main reason for Lugano: It's practically free. The travel time from Zurich will be just below two hours so the trains meet automatically in Lugano. Also, if you have a node in Lugano, the trains from Ponte Tresa can offer connections with low waiting times in both directions. Same goes for regional buses. Finally, such timetables are easier to remember; people just have to go to the train station at the top of the hour and can go wherever they want.

Originally, by the way, the node in Lugano was not planned. The trains to Milano should have been faster between Zurich and Lugano (200 km/h in the Gotthard base tunnel, less reserve time) and would have left Lugano for Milano at :55. But the planned 2h40 from Zurich to Milano seemed unrealistic because of the bad punctuality in Italy and would have cost too much capacity in the tunnel. Therefore, the trains run slower but there will be a train from Zurich to Lugano every 30 minutes .


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ The adoption of a 60-minute period is entirely artificial. Nothing would prevent, mathematically, from it being a 71-minute period, or 48-minute period, or 57-minute period. 

Adopting non-60-minute periods would allow improvements to be made and travel time to be further slashed. 

60 minutes is a purely artificial constraint related to the way traditional time measurement, which is a continuum, has been divided into.


----------



## Suburbanist

Had there ever been a plan to build a Zürich-Lötschberg link via Luzern-Interlaken, in a way that made it a fast connection?


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The adoption of a 60-minute period is entirely artificial. Nothing would prevent, mathematically, from it being a 71-minute period, or 48-minute period, or 57-minute period. Adopting non-60-minute periods would allow improvements to be made and travel time to be further slashed. 60 minutes is a purely artificial constraint related to the way traditional time measurement, which is a continuum, has been divided into.


71 minutes would be artificial. 60 minutes us not. Anyway, I bet that if you ran some computer simulation to find out the most optimal interval on the current Swiss network the answer would be 60 minutes...

What matters is that the interval is the same across the whole network. Preferably Europe wide. And Europe wide thee merging standard is 60 minutes. I don't think that changing that would be possible. 

What are you going to propose next? Changing the length of the meter as it is entirely artificial and a more efficient length can surely be found?


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Had there ever been a plan to build a Zürich-Lötschberg link via Luzern-Interlaken, in a way that made it a fast connection?


No. It wouldn't have been faster.


----------



## Sunfuns

I assume Zurich-Lugano every 30 min in less than 2 h will happen only when both tunnels are in operation. What is likely to be the intermediate solution after Gotthard tunnel is open, but before Ceneri tunnel is finished? 

It's a pity punctuality in Milan area is an unsolvable problem. Those tunnels had a potential for a greater time reduction. Maybe some day...


----------



## Suburbanist

The Italians could probably be enticed to build a new HSL to Chiasso if a full HSL was built on the Swiss side. They are, albeit begrudgingly, spending money on a connection Torino-Lyon that has far less traffic, but since it will be HSL, it attracts money as a flagship high-speed project.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> The Italians could probably be enticed to build a new HSL to Chiasso if a full HSL was built on the Swiss side.


A full HSL is not needed to improve punctuality.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Isn't travel to Brig (or Italy) from Geneve faster via Bern than via the slow line in Valais?


Actually the Geneve - Brig line is one of the faster lines in Switzerland.

Average speed for the Geneve - Milano EC is 105 kph on the Geneve - Brig section, 90 kph on Brig - Domodossola and 109 kph on Domodossola - Milano...


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> The Italians could probably be enticed to build a new HSL to Chiasso if a full HSL was built on the Swiss side. They are, albeit begrudgingly, spending money on a connection Torino-Lyon that has far less traffic, but since it will be HSL, it attracts money as a flagship high-speed project.


Do you think this money will be well spent?


----------



## K_

Sunfuns said:


> I assume Zurich-Lugano every 30 min in less than 2 h will happen only when both tunnels are in operation. What is likely to be the intermediate solution after Gotthard tunnel is open, but before Ceneri tunnel is finished?


The interim solution also needs to take in to account that the railway line on the Eastern shores of lake Zug will be closed for two years. All trains will be routed via Rotkreuz and reverse there. Thus in the beginning most of the time gains won't be realized anyway.


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> Do you think this money will be well spent?


I'm all for new high speed lines and base tunnels. The Torino-Lyon HSL will put Torino, Milano and with a bit of stretch Bologna, Verona, Reggio Emilia, Brescia within reach of both Southern France and Paris.


----------



## Sunfuns

K_ said:


> The interim solution also needs to take in to account that the railway line on the Eastern shores of lake Zug will be closed for two years. All trains will be routed via Rotkreuz and reverse there. Thus in the beginning most of the time gains won't be realized anyway.


Can you remind us the reason for that?


----------



## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> The Italians could probably be enticed to build a new HSL to Chiasso if a full HSL was built on the Swiss side. They are, albeit begrudgingly, spending money on a connection Torino-Lyon that has far less traffic, but since it will be HSL, it attracts money as a flagship high-speed project.





K_ said:


> Do you think this money will be well spent?


It depends… The distance is too short for a full HS line, but a good quality 200 km/h line which would allow Milano Centrale-Lugano in 30-40 min (currently ca 1 h) I think would make economic sense. In addition to Lugano it would also connect Como with Milano in 20 min.


----------



## Coccodrillo

alphorn said:


> The name is "interval timetable", but that's incomplete, not every interval timetable lets trains meet in stations. That is called "Integraler Taktfahrplan" in German, I think there's no term for that in English.


I would say "integral and symmetric timetable" ("horaire cadencé symmétrique" in French).



alphorn said:


> No, the changes are mainly south of the Gotthard base tunnel. The north stays the same except for being changed by 30 minutes.


No, north of Arth Goldau (to be precise, north of Erstfeld's junction) everything will remain as it is. There will be additional trains, but in addition to the current structure.



Suburbanist said:


> Had there ever been a plan to build a Zürich-Lötschberg link via Luzern-Interlaken, in a way that made it a fast connection?


No but the Gotthard-West options (one of the many unbuilt AlpTransit options) was for a Lugano-Locarno-Meiringen-Interlaken/Luzern line, likely without a connecting chord to allow fast Luzern-Interlaken trains. I would have preferred that over the current project, by the way (which is better for freight, thought).



Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The adoption of a 60-minute period is entirely artificial. Nothing would prevent, mathematically, from it being a 71-minute period, or 48-minute period, or 57-minute period.
> 
> Adopting non-60-minute periods would allow improvements to be made and travel time to be further slashed.
> 
> 60 minutes is a purely artificial constraint related to the way traditional time measurement, which is a continuum, has been divided into.


Some systems work on a 20-minute basis, which is also natural. Copenaghen's S-Tog, for instance.



Sunfuns said:


> I assume Zurich-Lugano every 30 min in less than 2 h will happen only when both tunnels are in operation. What is likely to be the intermediate solution after Gotthard tunnel is open, but before Ceneri tunnel is finished?


IR Basel-Erstfeld + IC Zürich-Lugano every hour, with swapped terminus the following hour, plus one IC Zürich-Lugano every two hours. One out of three ICs, every 2 hours, goes to Milan as an EC.



Suburbanist said:


> The Italians could probably be enticed to build a new HSL to Chiasso if a full HSL was built on the Swiss side.


It would be useful as a mixed traffic line.



Sunfuns said:


> Can you remind us the reason for that?


A 2 km section noth of Walchwil will be doubled. The clousure will last from December 2016 to June 2018.


----------



## Vaud

^^ 1.5 years for 2km doubling? isn't that a bit too much?


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## Momo1435

The main issue for building a new line between Milano and Chiasso is the suburban sprawl. A HSL is virtually impossible unless you tunnel it the whole way. It also makes it more difficult to upgrade the existing line, there are enough level crossings and plenty of houses directly next to the line. Both options are costly, especially for the limited time savings to be gained.


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## Suburbanist

There is always the option of building an improved link Locarno-Domodossola-(Brig)


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## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> There is always the option of building an improved link Locarno-Domodossola-(Brig)


What for? It still wouldn't be faster that way.


----------



## Sunfuns

Momo1435 said:


> The main issue for building a new line between Milano and Chiasso is the suburban sprawl. A HSL is virtually impossible unless you tunnel it the whole way. It also makes it more difficult to upgrade the existing line, there are enough level crossings and plenty of houses directly next to the line. Both options are costly, especially for the limited time savings to be gained.


That's true, but is there really nothing that could be done without tunnelling the whole way? Hard to believe that... Also going from 1 h to 0.5 h would be a huge difference.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> There is always the option of building an improved link Locarno-Domodossola-(Brig)


Again, it would be nice, but too expensive: it would be likely an 80 km tunnel for, being optimistic, 5.000 people a day and almost no freight.



Sunfuns said:


> That's true, but is there really nothing that could be done without tunnelling the whole way? Hard to believe that... Also going from 1 h to 0.5 h would be a huge difference.


One project went beyond the simple idea, until something quite detailed but not tot he final stage of details before construction. It was for a new line from Bivio Rosales ("Rosales Junction", where the 7.2 km Monte Olimpino 2 tunnel ends) to Seregno, with a 4 km tunnel along the line and an 8 km tunnel under Seregno. This tunnel would have had a junction under that city, with a branch surfacing towards Milan, and one going east towards Dalmine and the Milan-Venice line. I never found anything about it, except this description.


----------



## steple

Vaud said:


> ^^ 1.5 years for 2km doubling? isn't that a bit too much?


There will be 58 projects under construction between Zug and Arth-Goldau in that period of time. The doubling of the 2km near Walchwil is just one of them (but a quite important one). 

Practically the whole line is going to be renewed. It dates from 1897 and was never really improved. In addition, the entire eastern part of Arth-Goldau station will be reconstructed, with greater radii to allow higher speeds. The works will cost about 250 million CHF.


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Some systems work on a 20-minute basis, which is also natural. Copenaghen's S-Tog, for instance.


One of the nice things about "60" is that it is easily dividable on sub intervals.

2x30
3x20
4x15
5x12
6x10


That makes it a good choice when picking a timetable interval. Good engineering practice dictates that if you are going to pick a number at random to base the rest of your design on, that you pick a round number, a convenient number. 

If you use 60 as a basis for your long distance network it is still possible to have for example suburban networks in one city work on a 20min interval and in another city on a 15 minute interval, and still have good connections between the suburban and the long distance network in both cities.

So 60 is everything but a random, arbitrary choice. It's a good and logical choice.


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## CRS-moto

The Lucerne-Interlaken-Line (Brünig) is slow.


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## Vaud

The CEVA line opening in Geneva is being delayed by 21 months due to appeals against the project and the need to reinforce the structure of the tunnel of Champel after further geological studies found problems hno: Fortunately the budget will still be respected. More info: TdG


----------



## earthJoker

Suburbanist said:


> Had there ever been a plan to build a Zürich-Lötschberg link via Luzern-Interlaken, in a way that made it a fast connection?





Suburbanist said:


> There is always the option of building an improved link Locarno-Domodossola-(Brig)


It seems you have absolutely no feeling for topography. Maybe you should spend some time in a region that is not absolutely flat.


----------



## Suburbanist

earthJoker said:


> It seems you have absolutely no feeling for topography. Maybe you should spend some time in a region that is not absolutely flat.


Hey I've lived before near the Alps 

It is just that I think these days you can dig tunnels anywhere you need. To connect Domodossola with Locarno on a faster link would require a 15km tunnel. Not something simple, but doable in the medium term.

Ticino is fairly isolated from the rest of Switzerland. In winter, it has one rail link and 2 highway links to other cantons, and that is pretty much about it


----------



## earthJoker

Suburbanist said:


> It is just that I think these days you can dig tunnels anywhere you need. To connect Domodossola with Locarno on a faster link would require a 15km tunnel. Not something simple, but doable in the medium term.


I measure 30 km, maybe you can show us your 15 km tunnel on a map.


> Ticino is fairly isolated from the rest of Switzerland. In winter, it has one rail link and 2 highway links to other cantons, and that is pretty much about it


We're already building the Gotthard base tunnel for a better connection to the Ticino, for now that's enough.


----------



## Vaud

Suburbanist said:


> Ticino is fairly isolated from the rest of Switzerland. In winter, it has one rail link and 2 highway links to other cantons, and that is pretty much about it


Well, that's already more than Geneva which only has one highway and one railway link year round, and we don't ask for 10bn SFr. projects to be better connected to the rest of the country. 

Enough with spending in the gotthard or north-south connections, other parts of the country are in dire need for better infrastructure.


----------



## Sunfuns

Vaud said:


> Well, that's already more than Geneva which only has one highway and one railway link year round


Had I never seen a map of Switzerland, I might, after reading this, think that Geneva has very poor connections.


----------



## StuZealand

Suburbanist said:


> Hey I've lived before near the Alps
> 
> It is just that I think these days you can dig tunnels anywhere you need.


In a technological sense yes, tunnels can be built in all sorts of places that wasn't possible decades ago. Whether the political will exisits to do so (and the finances to build them) is a different matter entirely.

In a perfect world the Swiss could have tunnels going everywhere.


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## Suburbanist

I always thought there should be a full high-speed link Geneve-St. Gallen


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> I always thought there should be a full high-speed link Geneve-St. Gallen


If you have a big bag of money feel free to give it to the SBB. Don't be surprised if it gets spend on projects with a higher priority however.

It's not because something would be nice to have that it should be build...


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## CRS-moto

Zurich-Berne is very fast. And is part of Geneve-St.Gallen.


----------



## steple

The Rhaetian Railway in March 2014, like model trains:

































































all photos by Georg Trüb/railpictures.net


----------



## Sunfuns

Any of you know if there are any abandoned rail lines in Switzerland? Either outright or with no more passenger service. There is a fair number of abandoned stations, but I can't think of any lines. 

There is surprising number of local railway lines here going from one small town to another. I was in Porrentruy yesterday and noticed that there is a train line to Bonfol (small village). Haven't even heard about that one before...


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## Momo1435

From the book "Schienennetz Schweiz I could identify just a couple of closed down lines. Most of these lines have been broken up completely.

The longest line where passenger services have been terminated is Solothurn - Busswil between Solothurn and Büren an der Aare.


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## Suburbanist

Hadn't there been a Bellinzona - Cabbiolo railway?


----------



## earthJoker

Sunfuns said:


> Any of you know if there are any abandoned rail lines in Switzerland? Either outright or with no more passenger service. There is a fair number of abandoned stations, but I can't think of any lines.


Hinwil-Bauma is only used for a steam train, no regular services anymore.

There are also several broken down lines. Are you interested in those too?


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## Sunfuns

earthJoker said:


> Hinwil-Bauma is only used for a steam train, no regular services anymore.
> 
> *There are also several broken down lines.* Are you interested in those too?


Not sure I understand the difference…


----------



## TedStriker

^^

I agree, I've always liked the TEE trains.


----------



## K_

Stainless said:


> ^^^ Nice, get that thing passed for the Channel Tunnel and it could go pretty much anywhere (electrified) :cheers:. Is it being put back into service on a tourist line? If so I would take that, looks amazing.


It is occasionally used for specials. The next one with this train is on may 10th. It is owned by "SBB Historic" which has quite a nice collection, that they regularly run. You can also rent it, for a company event for example.


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## Coccodrillo

After the TEE era, they have been used as EuroCity until 1994 (and for some other trains, like the Bern-Frasne services connecting with the TGVs Lausanna-Frasne-Paris). Four sets with four coaches and a locomotive each were initially built, followed by a fifth 6-car sets and by additional coaches for the others. I remember a trip on a _grey mouse_ when I was a child.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_RAe_TEE_II

Also these diesel trainsets looked nice:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB_RAm_TEE_/_NS_DE_IV

Some coaches of these sets were transported abck to Europe from Canada, but the locomotives have been scrapped.

In both cases, trains too small and built in too few units to be economically interesting.

*********************

The section Mendrisio-Stabio will open in December 2014, but will be of limited use. Trains will run on peak hours only, every hour as S40 Mendrisio-Stabio-Balerna-Chiasso-(CH/I border)-Como-Albate and every hour as shuttles Mendrisio-Stabio. This means trains every 30 minutes on Mendrisio-Stabio, but only 5-8 and 16-19 on workdays. As there is no park&ride and as a bus connection to Italy is extremely unlikely, users of this short section of line will be commuters going to industries around Stabio's station, and people living within walking distance from the station (not more than a few thousands inhabitants).

Stabio station is 3,5 km from Mendrisio, here: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Stabi...992637,4.938354&t=h&hnear=Stabio,+Ticino&z=19

Older photos of the line under construction:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=104228500#post104228500

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=105444279#post105444279

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=107088368#post107088368


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## MarcVD

Coccodrillo said:


> Also these diesel trainsets looked nice:
> 
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB_RAm_TEE_/_NS_DE_IV
> 
> Some coaches of these sets were transported abck to Europe from Canada, but the locomotives have been scrapped.


Wasn't there a private association, named TEE Classics, at the base of this action ? Is it still active ? I remember there were even plans to rebuild a
locomotive for this set from scratch...


----------



## Momo1435

It was Stadler Rail that overhauled the RAe TEE II for SBB Historic.



> Stadler Rail has carried out important maintenance work on the legendary RAe TEE II 1035 multiple-unit train on behalf of SBB Historic. The work involved replacing the electric wheel-slip protection and anti-slide device and restoring the multi-system compliance of the drive. This means the train can now travel on all four power systems on the major European railways. Stadler also carried out the necessary test work on its four-system track in Bussnang.


http://www.stadlerrail.com/en/news/2014/03/27/stadler-overhauls-tee/


The coaches of the RAm TEE / DE4 that have been brought back to the Netherlands in 2006 by the "Stichting Trans Europ Express Nederland" are now stored in Amsterdam together with the Fyra V250 trains that will be returned to AnsaldoBreda. 


IMG_2524 von Momo1435 auf Flickr


It's not being restored at the moment, the people behind it are working to get the funds together to bring the coaches back to their original state. At the moment it's highly unlikely that it will get a new locomotive, there's simply not enough money.

Here's a little clip from a Dutch TV show that showed a couple of years ago with English subtitles on the train.


----------



## Vaud

:banana: epper: Geneva main train station's new refurbished side has been opened today! :banana::cheer::master:

Some pictures I took at midday

The main hall (was already open) with the entrances now freed to the new side (notice Liechtenstein hasn't been painted on the map  (it is the original one anyway)









The new side as entering from the main hall









The new side as entering from the new exterior entrance, those stairs lead to the corridor linking all the platforms (which are above, you can see a woman waiting on platform 1 through the new windows)









A sight from the whole thing as going down from platform 1 new exit









Seen from inside the new Starbucks









Hurray for the CFF who have chosen very good stores to open inside, including a Migros (supermarket), Starbucks, a Payot library, Subway etc, especially the Migros  for those who don't know it, Switzerland is very restrictive when it comes to opening times of shops, except for railways stations! for example on sunday's the only opened supermarket in the whole city was the Migros inside the railway station of the airport  together with the existing stores on the side that was already refurbished, the offer is pretty good!

Some other images from Tribune de Genève


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## rower2000

Vaud said:


> The main hall (was already open) with the entrances now freed to the new side (notice Liechtenstein hasn't been painted on the map  (it is the original one anyway)


Thanks for giving us back South Tyrol ^^:lol::banana:.


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## Coccodrillo

The so-called sectorial plan maps (I can't find a better English translation) can be seen on the internet: http://s.geo.admin.ch/55805f94f

Basically, it is a list of future federal infrastructural projects used to coordinate them. These are projects not yet financed, the construction of which is not certain, but might reasonably be built in the next 10 to 30 years.

It is only in German/French/Italian, so here a few tips:
* strumenti ==> misurazione allows to measure distances
* in the top right corner you can choose the language and select betwen a black&white/colour map (carta a colori) and satellite photos (swissimage) (there is a fourth option, "no background at all", but for us quite useless)
* piani settoriali ==> PS infrastruttura ferroviaria ==> altri dati settoriali ==> SIS status quo allows to select/unselect under construction projects
* piani settoriali ==> PS infrastruttura stradale should be the same for roads, but it isn't done yet (it might take some months from now)
* there are many other options to show things like natural parks, political boundaries, etc

Note that it only shows federal projects, cantonal projects are not shown even when they are partly funded by the federal government. Clic on a project to see more infos, including details in PDF files (only in the language of the concerned region). The colours shows new lines (green), upgrade of existing lines (light blue) and new or upgraded lines under construction (black).

These projects are:
* the new Lucerne tunnel and station
* a new 30 km Zürich-Aarau tunnel, or two shorter tunnels and surface sections (it's still not decided)
* the 18 km Wisenberg tunnel between Basel and Olten
* 16 km of new and upgraded track between Berne and Lausanne, including a 6 km tunnel
* 13 km of new and upgraded track between Zürich and Winterthur, including a 9 km tunnel
* southern extension of the Ceneri Base Tunnel (final length 38 km+branches, it would have between 4 and 7 double track portals, according to how many branches would be built)
* a new freight only, single track, ~35-km long line between Cadenazzo (CH) and Laveno (I), including a ~20 km tunnel parallel to the CBT (much of the rest of the line would be in tunnel, too)
* a new 18 km line linking the GBT and the CBT, mostly in tunnel
* an extension of the GBT which would then be 75 km long, followed by a short open air section near Brunnen and then another tunnel (an alternative is building it underground, obtaining a single 85-km long tunnel)
* the second part of the Zimmerberg Base Tunnel (ZBT, total length 20 km), plus two as yet undefined news lines between Zug and Arth-Goldau and/or Lucerne (these latter quite unlikely, IMHO)
* upgrade of the Lötschberg base line (second track, Steg branch, new Niesen tunnel)
* many other smaller projects (mainly doubling/tripling of existing lines)

IMHO, the projects likely to be built "quickly" (opening between 2030 and 2035) are the ZBT, Lucerne's underground station, the partially new Zürich-Wintertur line, more tracks on the Zürich-Olten line (maybe only the Chestenberg tunnel, part of the "two shorter tunnel" variant), and a partial upgrade of the Lötschberg base line (building the lining and the track in the 15 km unfinished section of the LBT, but leaving the LBT with the northernmost 7 km of single track). The less likely are the two varians for a Zug's bypass. However, that's just my opinion, I don't know -nobody knows- what will be built first.

More infos: http://www.bav.admin.ch/themen/02957/index.html?lang=it


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## Sunfuns

Thanks for the document, I'll go through it when I have a bit more time. All this is long term, however. Do you know what kind of rail projects we have which are not yet under construction but are likely to be in the next 3-5 years?


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## Coccodrillo

I'm too tired to copy them directly here now, however, you can easily find them here:

http://www.bav.admin.ch/zeb/03777/03778/03792/index.html?lang=de for ZEB

http://www.bav.admin.ch/fabi/index.html?lang=de for FABI 1st phase

Basically, ZEB is financed by money approved in the 1990s, FABI by the eternal fund approved by voters on the 9th February of this year. Both will be built by around 2025.

After that, more FABI phases will follow every 4-5 years, the next will presented to the parliament in 2018 (for opening around 2030) and by that date we should know what projects will be included. The third phase should eb presented by 2022, and so on. The "projects likely to be built quickly" I have listed above will be, in my opinion, be included in the 2nd or 3rd phase.

Remember that cantonal projects are not included (yet?) in FABI's fund, so Basel's S-Bahn tunnel, Neuchâtel's Transrun or Lugano's tram tunnel might be built via cantonal and federal funds (FABI's projects, however, are federal only).


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## Ataman

On a related note does anyone know about this? It has to do with (current and past) long-term plans for hgv lines:

http://www.citrap-vaud.ch/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/SBBLabStGallen22.4.13.pdf


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## Coccodrillo

These are mostly unofficial proposals (some by locally famous people, for instance Oliver Français is/was a politician involved in transports in Lausanne, but given as personal opinions).

The only official informations given are on pages 13 (time reductions), 14 (frequency, bigger red lines = every 15 minutes, smaller lines = every 30), 15 (improvements on Lausanne-Geneva by 2025), 17 (the Eppenbergtunnel will open by 2020, the others may follow later, as shown or different alignments).


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## Ataman

I see, thanks!


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## alphorn2

Sunfuns said:


> Thanks for the document, I'll go through it when I have a bit more time. All this is long term, however. Do you know what kind of rail projects we have which are not yet under construction but are likely to be in the next 3-5 years?


There is a comprehensive overview of Swiss rail projects on wikipedia. It's German, but google translate should be able to handle it.


----------



## Vertigo

I understand a new Albula-tunnel will be built on the RhB-network to replace the current tunnel. I don't understand why though: the new tunnel will be single-track and will completely replace the current single track tunnel. So there isn't any capacity increase there. So if it doesn't lead to capacity increase, what is the reason for the new tunnel?


----------



## eeee.

For security and sustainability reasons. (see your link)
http://www.rhb.ch/




> The deciding factors were the relatively small difference in costs as well as the limited restrictions affecting the timetable during the construction phase and the substantially higher safety provided by a new development, for the old tunnel no longer complies with the latest standards.


http://www.tunnel-online.info/en/artikel/tunnel_Renewal_of_the_Albula_Tunnel_1816890.html


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## alphorn

Vertigo said:


> So if it doesn't lead to capacity increase, what is the reason for the new tunnel?


Building a new tunnel is only marginally more expensive than a major overhaul of the old one. But it has several advantages:
- It creates no multi-year disruption of traffic
- It allows building the making the tunnel larger, improving safety
- It allows using the old tunnel as escape route
- It will probably last longer than an overhauled old tunnel

Since the capacity of the old tunnel is sufficient, there is no need to expand it.


----------



## StuZealand

alphorn said:


> Building a new tunnel is only marginally more expensive than a major overhaul of the old one. But it has several advantages:
> - It creates no multi-year disruption of traffic
> - It allows building the making the tunnel larger, improving safety
> - It allows using the old tunnel as escape route
> - It will probably last longer than an overhauled old tunnel
> 
> Since the capacity of the old tunnel is sufficient, there is no need to expand it.


So the new tunnel will have cross passages to the old tunnel?


----------



## K_

StuZealand said:


> So the new tunnel will have cross passages to the old tunnel?


There will indeed be cross passages about every 450 m. 

In 2009'the Swiss government introduced new legislation requiring railways to update the safety systems and procedures for their tunnels. Railways have till 2019 to produce a plan how they intend to comply.
One of the new requirements is that passengers must be able to evacuate themselves. In the old tunnel this would be impossible.


----------



## StuZealand

Ok, thanks for that info. There must be a shitload of older Swiss railway tunnels lacking an external escape route though?


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## Sunfuns

I think it only applies to tunnels over the certain length.


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## Coccodrillo

AFAIK, the maximum distance one can walk in a tunnel with the smoke of a fire is (optimistically, IMHO) around 500 m - and rail tunnels longer than that are around 150 in this country.

However, in long rail tunnels with low traffic disasters are quite unlikely, so this safety paranoia has more political/psychological than rational origins.

Obviously, in the case of new tunnels providing escape paths is good.

************************

Because of works, the overhead wires on part of the Arth-Rigi rack railway had to be switched off. But as the Rigibahn doesn't own diesel rack locomotives, work trains are pushed and braked by steam engines.

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=480591
http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=480590
http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=480573


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## toma.bacic

Something completely different.... 

The 1000 mm narrow gauge Bulle - Broc line of TPF (Transports Publics Fribourgeois) will be regauged to standard gauge and reelctrified. The original line was opened in two stages in 1912. The cost of the project which will be finished in 2019 – 2021 is CHF 50 million and will be covered by the confederation government. After that, the line will be included in the Fribour RER network. The project allows direct passenger trains from Bern to the Cailler chocolate factory very popular for tourists!

regards
toma


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## Coccodrillo

Benefits will mostly be for freight traffic, as now it has to use rollbocks (which is very costly), and just for 5 km or so.

Because of a common stretch south of Bulle, a 4-rail track will have to be built, together with a commutable overhead line (900 V DC and 15 kV AC).

https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Bulle...38354&oq=Bulle&t=k&hnear=Bulle,+Friburgo&z=19

Bottom-left track goes to Montbovon, bottom-right to Broc.

An article in French: http://www.lagruyere.ch/2014/05/de-broc-fabrique-à-berne-sans-changer-de-train.html


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## AlexNL

Stadler has won a tender to supply 29 new high speed trains to Swiss Federal Railways, SBB. The trains, 200 meters long and 250 km/h fast, will enter service at the end of 2019 and will run between Basel, Zürich and Milan. Source and more: IRJ


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## KingNick

Why did they insist on a 250 km/h Vmax?


----------



## rower2000

KingNick said:


> Why did they insist on a 250 km/h Vmax?


Because that will be the Vmax of the Gotthard/Ceneri base tunnels, I guess.


----------



## K_

KingNick said:


> Why did they insist on a 250 km/h Vmax?


I think it's actually 249. To stay within Class II norms.


----------



## KingNick

rower2000 said:


> Because that will be the Vmax of the Gotthard/Ceneri base tunnels, I guess.


That might be true, yes, but I doubt SBB will operate at those speeds.


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## Sunfuns

KingNick said:


> That might be true, yes, but I doubt SBB will operate at those speeds.


Probably not, but they would like to be able to operate at that speed outside Switzerland. That's a useful option considering the very long lifetime of trains.


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## Momo1435

The max speed is indeed 249 km/h

SBB press release:
http://www.sbb.ch/sbb-konzern/medien/medienmitteilungen.newsdetail.2014-5-0905_2.html

Stadler press release:
http://www.stadlerrail.com/de/medien/2014/05/09/stadler-rail-gewinnt-ausschreibung-fur-neat-zuge/


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## K_

KingNick said:


> That might be true, yes, but I doubt SBB will operate at those speeds.


That's true. But if you're going to order a Class II high speed train you can as well order one that goes till 249...


----------



## Gyllis

Is it known what happens with the ETR 470 EMU:s that will be replaced? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## Momo1435

Gyllis said:


> Is it known what happens with the ETR 470 EMU:s that will be replaced?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2



They are up for a major revision, that's the reason they are already being phased out when the new ETR 610 sets are delivered later this year.

If there's a buyer that wants to pay both for the trains and for the revision they might end up running somewhere else. But the longer there's no news about such a sale it becomes more likely that they will be scrapped.


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## Gyllis

Momo1435 said:


> They are up for a major revision, that's the reason they are already being phased out when the new ETR 610 sets are delivered later this year.
> 
> 
> 
> If there's a buyer that wants to pay both for the trains and for the revision they might end up running somewhere else. But the longer there's no news about such a sale it becomes more likely that they will be scrapped.



Ok! Thanks for answer! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## AlexNL

Here are some pictures of SBB's latest:









The EC250, Swiss Federal Railways' newest high speed train, has been presented. The name EC249 would be more appropriate as the trains will be homologated for a maximum speed of 249 km/h.









Close up of the EC250's nose.









One of the train's entrances. Note the gentle slope towards the door, the EC250 is a low floor vehicle so that people in a wheelchair or with a baby carriage can easily enter the vehicle without needing assistence.









Interior shot of a first class car.









Each seat will be equipped with a power socket. The four-seaters in first class get folding tables.









Seats in 2nd class. These four-seaters will not get the big folding tables, a small folding table near the window will be installed instead.









Interior of the dining coach.









Close up of an area for luggage and ski's.









Bikes are allowed as well.

Picture source: SRF.ch


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## Vaud

I like the detail of placing the CFF logo in front, although I still think the Swiss "coat-of-arms" as in the Re 4/4 is better looking


----------



## Coccodrillo

Momo1435 said:


> They are up for a major revision, that's the reason they are already being phased out when the new ETR 610 sets are delivered later this year.
> 
> If there's a buyer that wants to pay both for the trains and for the revision they might end up running somewhere else. But the longer there's no news about such a sale it becomes more likely that they will be scrapped.


SBB's ETR 470 should be put out of service by the end of this year (but I suppose early 2015 at the latest, depending on the delivery of the new ETR 610), while I heard that Trenitalia's ETR 470 will continue to run on the Gotthard route for some time (maybe until when Trenitalia has enough ETR 400 to free ETR 610s for international services.

It all depends on how much services will be offered, however: within a year, SBB should have 15 ETR 610, which together with the 7 belonging to Trenitalia gives 22 sets. Today's (June 2014) timetable requires 7 sets on the Simplon (including those under maintenance), 5 sets on the Zürich-Milano services (excluding reserves), 1 set for the single Lucerne-Milano trip, for a total of ~14 sets.

As for the new trains, as they can run under 25 kV they may be used on Italian HSL lines to reindtroduce services like Zürich-Florence(-Rome), as well as (maybe in the future) in France. Note that initially they should be equipped D-CH-I (not for Austria and France AFAIK), and that 19 will have a dining car, 10 will not.


----------



## KingNick

What a neat looking train, but this picture really bothers me:










EC cars should have tables at every single seat and not just in the first class. This ain't no local train afterall.


----------



## Vaud

^^ I personally couldn't care less, and in fact I prefer sets without tables since it feels more spacious


----------



## KingNick

What's the point of having power sockets for every seat then, if you can't even use a laptop?


----------



## Sopomon

I use them to charge my phone when I can - smartphones die so quickly nowadays


----------



## Vaud

^^ exactly, people nowadays mostly just plug in their phones/tablets, there really are very few people in 2nd class compartments using laptops, whose use is mostly restricted to businessmen in 1st class, hence the table thing


----------



## KingNick

This is just bollocks. People in the second class use laptops as well, for various reasons. I can't think of any other new EC cars, where not every seat would be equipped with a table. It's also not just laptops you'd need a table for.


----------



## Suburbanist

An alternative solution is to arrange seats with fewer facing sets and most of them parallel (airplane-style).

That way, you can easy have a table installed on the back of the seat in front.


----------



## rheintram

Swiss first class costs three times more than abroad but looks like second class. As for its 2nd class: If this was a regional train, I'd call it very nice. But since we are talking about an Intercity train it looks sub-standard.

From the outside the train looks very nice, yet not very original...


----------



## Sunfuns

I rarely see first class coaches more than half full in Switzerland. It just costs too much for only a marginal advantage. The biggest one probably being the very fact that the coaches are almost empty.


----------



## K_

rheintram said:


> Swiss first class costs three times more than abroad but looks like second class. As for its 2nd class: If this was a regional train, I'd call it very nice. But since we are talking about an Intercity train it looks sub-standard. From the outside the train looks very nice, yet not very original...


You shouldn't compare the price if Swiss first class with that abroad. Swiss first class is about 50%-60% above second class, which is similar to other countries. I personally find first class on the SBB quite comfortable, especially compared to for example DB. I've gift a first class GA, and I find it's worth it.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> An alternative solution is to arrange seats with fewer facing sets and most of them parallel (airplane-style). That way, you can easy have a table installed on the back of the seat in front.


These sets will have a mixture of airline style and facing seats. The fact is however that the Swiss prefer facing seats.


----------



## Sunfuns

I doubt it's just Swiss. It allows you to have a conversation with more than one person and to have more space if the train is not full.


----------



## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> I doubt it's just Swiss. It allows you to have a conversation with more than one person and to have more space if the train is not full.


What is the profile of traveler parties in CH? Mostly groups of 3 or more?

Are trains often below 50% capacity?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Are trains often below 50% capacity?


Considering all long distance trains, I think loading factor is around 30-40%.

But that's inevitable, giving the fact that Swiss timetable is regular interval and symmetric.

(on a side note, detractors of public transport like to say that "trains/buses are always empty", but never, never, never say that most cars have a loading factor of 20%...)


----------



## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> What is the profile of traveler parties in CH? Mostly groups of 3 or more?


It's mostly alone of course, but when you do have a larger company this arrangement is appreciated.




Suburbanist said:


> Are trains often below 50% capacity?


I commute to work with a train and it's about 70-80% in IR, close to 100% or above for the first few stops with S-Bahn. If I happen to take the same train late in the evening (around 8 pm) then it's ca 20%. That's for the second class, the first one is almost always below 50%.


----------



## AlexNL

That sounds more or less similar with my experiences with Dutch railways, altho lately occupance has seem to go up as NS has seemed to master the skill of optimizing rolling stock utilisation. 

First class is mostly < 50% once you kick out everyone who shouldn't be there. A while ago I took a night train from Schiphol to Breda, it left Schiphol at 1 AM and first class was full. Tickets were inspected 3 times during the trip, and each time people got kicked out. Upon arrival in Breda, I was the only one left in first.


----------



## Vaud

Suburbanist said:


> What is the profile of traveler parties in CH? Mostly groups of 3 or more?
> 
> Are trains often below 50% capacity?


Coincidentally there was in a couple of 'via' magazine ago an article precisely on that subject, explaining that not only a vast majority of train users prefer the 4-seat arrangement, but also that it allows to carry more seats on each coach since the back room between seats which is used as storage space for the baggage would otherwise have to be created in the extremes of the coaches and the result is a lower seat density, so it's all advantages ;-) will try to find it when I get to be on the computer


----------



## AlexNL

I usually travel alone and then I prefer to have an airline style seat layout, as I have more legroom this way. When travelling together with someone I do prefer sitting across, as we can see each other more easily then. 

My ideal layout for the interior of a train would be to have one half airline style, and the other half vis-a-vis.


----------



## MarcVD

While I'm alone I don't care too much about seat arrangments. When in group 
then of course facing seats are better. But in both case the most important
is that seats are aligned with windows...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/go-ahead-for-new-albula-tunnel.html?channel=542
> 
> *Go-ahead for new Albula Tunnel*
> Tuesday, May 13, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _RHAETIAN Railways (RhB) announced on May 12 that the Swiss Federal Ministry of Transport (BAV) has granted a construction permit for the construction of the new 5.9km Albula Tunnel on the metre-gauge line from Chur to St Moritz_
> 
> The new tunnel between Preda and Spina stations will replace the existing single-track tunnel, which dates back to the opening of the line in 1903 and is now a UNESCO World Heritage site.
> 
> A survey of the tunnel in 2006 found extensive renovation work would be required to bring the tunnel up to modern standards. RhB subsequently decided to build a new tunnel, which would cost only slightly more than upgrading the existing structure and would also minimise disruption to traffic.
> 
> Preparatory works will begin immediately and full construction is expected to begin next year on the SFr 345m ($US 389m) project, with commissioning scheduled for the end of 2020. The existing tunnel will be converted into a service tunnel by the end of 2021, and will be linked to the new tunnel by 12 cross passages


----------



## Suburbanist

MarcVD said:


> While I'm alone I don't care too much about seat arrangments. When in group
> then of course facing seats are better. But in both case the most important
> is that seats are aligned with windows...


Facing seats on full trains are bad for solo travelers, at least for me. Being on the direct line of sight of a stranger that is not there for some special reason is always bothering, and you can't stretch your legs without violating most accepted social norms about personal space. At least this is how I think.


----------



## Vaud

Suburbanist said:


> Facing seats on full trains are bad for solo travelers, at least for me. Being on the direct line of sight of a stranger that is not there for some special reason is always bothering, and you can't stretch your legs without violating most accepted social norms about personal space. At least this is how I think.


Found it  

http://www.cff.ch/groupe/medias/publications/via/archives.html

From february edition:




> Pourquoi est-on assis face à face en train?
> 
> Ils se disputent déjà en montant dans le tram,se jettent sur des sièges l’un derrière l’autre etcontinuent à se chamailler. La scène est bienconnue des utilisateurs des TP, mais plutôtrare dans les trains puisqu’en Suisse, lessièges en vis-à-vis y sont très appréciés. C’esten tout cas ce qui ressort d’un sondage réalisépar les CFF auprès de ses clients. *72 %préfèrent voyager selon cette configuration,et même 99 % des personnes voyageant accompagnées dans le cadre de leurs loisirs*. Il semblerait que nous, les Suisses, soyons unpeuple remarquablement sociable – du moinsquand nous prenons le train.
> 
> Plusieurs arguments techniques solidesplaident toutefois aussi en faveur du compartimentà quatre places. Assis en vis-à-vis, lespassagers peuvent plus facilement laisserpasser de nouveaux arrivants, même encombrésde bagages. De plus, cette dispositioncrée des niches à bagages entre les dossiersqui permettent de conserver les valises àportée de main – ce qui n’est pas le cas des«sièges aviation»,c’est-à-dire disposés enligne, où l’on doit déposerses bagages dans descompartiments à l’entrée.Chose curieuse, lescompartiments à quatreplaces offrent au bout du compte plus deplaces assises que les sièges aviation. Celapeut sembler à première vue illogique, étantdonné qu’on peut mettre plus de sièges enenfilade que de compartiments de quatre dansune voiture. Mais les compartiments àbagages et les passagers bloquant des siègesavec leurs sacs suppriment cet avantage.Continuons donc à discuter avec notrevis-à-vis, par exemple de ces odieux siègesen enfilade


 
Google translation




> Why are we sitting face to face in the train ?
> 
> 
> They already compete riding in the tram , throw themselves on seats one behind the other and continue to bicker . The scene is familiar to users of TP , but rare in Switzerland since trains, seats vis- à-vis are very appreciated. It is in any case what emerges from a survey conducted by SBB to its customers . 72% prefer to travel in this configuration, and even 99% of people traveling together as part of their leisure time. It seems that we , the Swiss , let a remarkably friendly people - at least when we take the train.
> 
> However, several strong technical arguments also support the four-seat compartment . Sitting vis- à-vis passengers can more easily pass newcomers , even crowded baggage . In addition, this provision creates niches luggage between folders which keep the bags àportée hand - which is not the case of " seats aviation " , that is to say willing enligne , where must file its luggage compartment at the entrance. Curiously, the four-seater compartments provide ultimately more displaced foundation that aviation seats. This may seem illogical at first sight, since it can put more seats in a row as four compartments in a car. But the baggage compartments and passengers blocking seats with their bags eliminate this avantage.Continuons therefore discuss with notrevis -à-vis , for example these heinous row seats


 
i.e. 72% of swiss people prefer 4-seats compartments, as do 99% of those who travel with others.


----------



## Suburbanist

How much luggage storage is really a problem?


----------



## bavarian urbanist

Suburbanist said:


> Facing seats on full trains are bad for solo travelers, at least for me. Being on the direct line of sight of a stranger that is not there for some special reason is always bothering, and you can't stretch your legs without violating most accepted social norms about personal space. At least this is how I think.


Well, most people are not so sissy about that. If you really can't stand other people you're always free to chose another seat.


----------



## earthJoker

I actually like the chair system of the trains of Sydney. You can just flip over seats they way you want them.


----------



## Sunfuns

^^That's cool. Didn't know something like that is possible.


----------



## earthJoker

Sunfuns said:


> I rarely see first class coaches more than half full in Switzerland. It just costs too much for only a marginal advantage. The biggest one probably being the very fact that the coaches are almost empty.


Unless you travel between Zürich and Bern, where the 1st class is actually fuller than the second.


----------



## AlexNL

Why is that?


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Facing seats on full trains are bad for solo travelers, at least for me. Being on the direct line of sight of a stranger that is not there for some special reason is always bothering, and you can't stretch your legs without violating most accepted social norms about personal space. At least this is how I think.


Not everybody is like you however. Usually on trains that aren't full ( ie, most of the time) people will not take a seat directly across from you. Facing seats result in more leg room in these situations. 

I just rode on an NMBS desiro yesterday, and boy, do they pack them like sardines....


----------



## K_

earthJoker said:


> I actually like the chair system of the trains of Sydney. You can just flip over seats they way you want them. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEvhET3SSGQ">YouTube Link</a>


That gives you the disadvantages of airline seating, without the advantages...


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> While I'm alone I don't care too much about seat arrangments. When in group then of course facing seats are better. But in both case the most important is that seats are aligned with windows...


That's going to be ok. If you look at the renderings you'll notice that the manufacturer appears not to care much about having windows all the same size and evenly spaced. You see that also with swiss double stock trains, where windows on the upper and lower level aren't necessarily aligned as well.
The seats get drawn in first, then the windows...


----------



## Sunfuns

earthJoker said:


> Unless you travel between Zürich and Bern, where the 1st class is actually fuller than the second.


Government workers? I live in Basel so quite obviously don't travel that route.


----------



## K_

AlexNL said:


> Why is that?


Swisscom, SBB and Swiss government employees.

And a first class GA costs less then commuting Zürich Bern by car would cost in gasoline alone...


----------



## Sunfuns

K_ said:


> And a first class GA costs less then commuting Zürich Bern by car would cost in gasoline alone...


That is true although commuting such a long distance every day is crazy regardless of cost. I wouldn't want such a life...


----------



## earthJoker

K_ said:


> That gives you the disadvantages of airline seating, without the advantages...


Quite the opposite, you can always seat facing forwards if you want. I assume you have never been to Sydney?


----------



## Vaud

earthJoker said:


> Quite the opposite, you can always seat facing forwards if you want. I assume you have never been to Sydney?


Those seats are good for S-Bahn/RER services such in Sydney (were those double-deck trains with movable seats are used), but it wouldn't be as much comfortable for IR/IC trains because as explained the room between seats in those trains is used as storing space, which is more necessary for long-distance trains instead of trains that are purely used by commuters.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ Beside that reversible seats cannot have tablets on the rear.



Sunfuns said:


> Government workers? I live in Basel so quite obviously don't travel that route.


Including the former minister of transport (the one before the current one).


----------



## K_

earthJoker said:


> Quite the opposite, you can always seat facing forwards if you want. I assume you have never been to Sydney?


I have. And I can't begin to list all the things that are terribly wrong with cityrail... 

The disadvantage of airline seating is that it slows down boarding. If the person sitting at the window wants to get out, the person sitting next to him or her must get up as well. And in Sidney with 2+3 seating sometimes even two persons must get up. 
Another disadvantage is less luggage space.
The main advantage of airline style seating is that you can have a tray table to prop your laptop on. But that you don't have with those reversing seats in Sydney. You hence lose the major advantage.

Being able to travel facing forward is only a minor advantage. Most people don't care. And in Switzerland trains sometimes reverse direction several times during their route.


----------



## K_

Sunfuns said:


> That is true although commuting such a long distance every day is crazy regardless of cost. I wouldn't want such a life...


It's less than an hour. Most people in Greater London have longer commutes.

I've done if for years. Now I commute Bern - Basel every day. Still have a first class GA. It's two hours a day that are entirely mine.


----------



## Sunfuns

K_ said:


> It's less than an hour. Most people in Greater London have longer commutes.
> 
> I've done if for years. Now I commute Bern - Basel every day. Still have a first class GA. It's two hours a day that are entirely mine.


Less than an hour station to station, the whole commute will be significantly longer than that for most. My commute is 40 min one way and it already feels borderline for me. Not that it's particularly uncomfortable, but I'd prefer to spend that time somewhere else. In the past my longest commute was 15 min…


----------



## earthJoker

K_ said:


> I have. And I can't begin to list all the things that are terribly wrong with cityrail...
> 
> The disadvantage of airline seating is that it slows down boarding. If the person sitting at the window wants to get out, the person sitting next to him or her must get up as well. And in Sidney with 2+3 seating sometimes even two persons must get up.


For a commuter train this is indeed not perfect, but for longer distances it should be ok. And we don't have 2+3 seating in Switzerland.


> Another disadvantage is less luggage space.


How much is less then zero? Because in the current IC2000 you can place a average suitcase neither under your seat nor overhead.


> The main advantage of airline style seating is that you can have a tray table to prop your laptop on. But that you don't have with those reversing seats in Sydney. You hence lose the major advantage.


I don't think it wouldn't be possible to add those, it's just that they didn't made those in Sydney.


> Being able to travel facing forward is only a minor advantage. Most people don't care. And in Switzerland trains sometimes reverse direction several times during their route.


A lot less after next year :cheers:


----------



## Vaud

On an other order of things...

Geneva's "Business Point" (a sort of lounge à la airport) in Cornavin train station opened today



> Cornavin inaugure son aile de luxe
> 
> En plus d'y manger, d'y organiser ses vacances ou d'y faire ses courses, on peut désormais également travailler et se relaxer à la gare Cornavin. Ce mercredi matin, les CFF ont inauguré leur secteur «deluxe», situé au deuxième étage de la nouvelle aile est. Genève est désormais la seule gare de Suisse à bénéficier à la fois d'un Business Point et d'un Lounge 1ère classe.
> 
> Keep reading: Tribune de Genève


It can be accessed by users owning a 1st class AG or a 1st class international single ticket. It joins Bern's, which was until today the only such CFF's lounge.


----------



## K_

Sunfuns said:


> Currently only S6 from Zell im Wiesental does that. It would be useful if regional DB trains from Freiburg continued to SBB as well.


It's true that at the moment most regional trains from Freiburg end in Basel Bad. But this will change once the renovation of the old Rhine bridge is finished.
SBB build a new bridge, and this is now in use, but they are now renovating the old one. Once both are in use more trains can run from Basel Bad to Basel SBB.


----------



## AlexNL

According to Railway Gazette, both Alstom and Talgo are to appeal against SBB's selection of Stadler to supply trains for the Gotthard base tunnel.


----------



## 3locations

dimlys1994 said:


> From Rail Journal:


Railway connection to EuroAirport will also allow direct connection for Strasbourg, Selestat and Colmar cities with 1 hour travel time starting from Strasbourg and even Belfort/Montbeliard with less than 1 hour travel time.

The train station platfoms will be compliant to TGV specifications (especially in term of platform length), however there is no plan for TGV stops at this train station currently.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...s-over-new-pendolinos-to-sbb.html?channel=542
> 
> *Alstom hands over new Pendolinos to SBB*
> Wednesday, June 04, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALSTOM handed over the first of eight additional ETR 610 Pendolino EMUs to Swiss Federal Railways (SBB) at its Savigliano plant in northern Italy on June 3.
> 
> SBB placed a €200m order for the 250km/h multi-system trains in July 2012, exercising an option from a contract for seven trains signed in March 2004 by Alstom and Cisalpino, the now defunct joint venture between Trenitalia and SBB.
> 
> The seven-car trains will seat 430 passengers and will operate alongside the existing sets on Milan – Geneva/Basle and Milan – Zürich services from December, replacing SBB's unreliable ETR 470 Pendolinos, which will be withdrawn.
> 
> The use of ETR 610s on the Gotthard route will only be a temporary measure as the trains are due to be replaced from 2019 onwards by new EC250 EMUs recently ordered by SBB from Stadler


----------



## Sunfuns

And what will happen with these newly delivered trains after 2019?


----------



## Coccodrillo

It is not decided yet, but possible routes I heard about include Zürich-Brussels via the LGV Est and Zörich-München (although they are and will not be certified for France and Belgium yet).

Or they may continue to run to Italy, together with the new Stadler trains.


----------



## steple

The ZVV (Zürich Transport Network) has uploaded a clip for advertising the opening of the DML. :lol:






The message is: "For all who have to travel really fast through Zürich" :cheers:


----------



## dimlys1994

Progress on new Rosshausern tunnel on Bern–Neuchâtel route (used by S-Bahn Basel and TGV Lyria), taken from June leaflet from BLS's website:


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ More infos about it from this thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=96370221#post96370221


----------



## Momo1435

Coccodrillo said:


> It is not decided yet, but possible routes I heard about include Zürich-Brussels via the LGV Est and Zörich-München (although they are and will not be certified for France and Belgium yet).
> 
> Or they may continue to run to Italy, together with the new Stadler trains.


The last thing that I read about it is that they will be transferred to the Simplon Axis, without giving a further explanation on how that will turn out operationally together with the sets from the first order that are already being used there.


----------



## K_

3locations said:


> Railway connection to EuroAirport will also allow direct connection for Strasbourg, Selestat and Colmar cities with 1 hour travel time starting from Strasbourg and even Belfort/Montbeliard with less than 1 hour travel time.
> 
> The train station platfoms will be compliant to TGV specifications (especially in term of platform length), however there is no plan for TGV stops at this train station currently.


A usefull offer would be:
- TER200 every half hour Basel - Strassbourg with stops at the airport and then Mulhouse, Colmar and Selestat.
- S1 every half hour Basel - Airport - all stops to Mulhouse - Mulheim - Freiburg.


----------



## K_

Momo1435 said:


> The last thing that I read about it is that they will be transferred to the Simplon Axis, without giving a further explanation on how that will turn out operationally together with the sets from the first order that are already being used there.


The sets ought to be compatible with the existing sets, so I don't see operational problems. The sets will allow to increase the services on both Basel - Bern - Milano and Geneve - Brig - Milano. SBB wants to run at least 4 return trips on both routes. At the moment there is a big gap in services in the middle. 
Also with these trains SBB could again run trains to destinations beyond Milano. Apart from Geneve - Venezia I'm thinking about Basel - Genova and Geneve - Ancona for example.


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> It is not decided yet, but possible routes I heard about include Zürich-Brussels via the LGV Est and Zörich-München (although they are and will not be certified for France and Belgium yet).


Zürich - Brussel is apparently of the table. A pity. That route really needs some improvement in the service offered.


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Zustandserhaltung bestehender Tunnel = I don't understand clearly, it sounds like "maintaining the tunnel as it is"


They are going to maintain the integrity of the tunnel. After all, letting it just collapse has all kinds of unpleasant consequences. I wouldn't be surprised if it was even reused as part of a bike route (together with the old alignment).


----------



## Coccodrillo

K_ said:


> The sets will allow to increase the services on both Basel - Bern - Milano and Geneve - Brig - Milano. SBB wants to run at least 4 return trips on both routes.


Which would still be less than what there was until 2008 or so (5 Geneva and 4 Basel via the Simplon).



Momo1435 said:


> The last thing that I read about it is that they will be transferred to the Simplon Axis, without giving a further explanation on how that will turn out operationally together with the sets from the first order that are already being used there.


29+15=44 sets approved in Italy and Germany are a lot of trains, that's why I heard of services like Milano-Zürich-Frankfurt and more services Switzerland-Venice.

Basically, what was offered when most ECs were run with conventional stock, thought...

(conventional stock on Switzerland-Italy EuroCitys disappeared in 2009: during the timetable period December 2008-Decemebr 2009 there were just 3 Milano-Geneva and 3 Milano-Bellinzona train pairs - without counting conventional stock replacing ETRs, which is used even now)


----------



## Sunfuns

Which international services are currently being run by SBB? I'm aware only of routes to Milan plus some suburban routes here in Basel area…


----------



## Coccodrillo

Entirely run by SBB? None, but there are many international services operated jountly by neighbors companies.


----------



## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> Entirely run by SBB? None, but there are many international services operated jountly by neighbors companies.


I meant with Swiss trains. Kind of like ICE or TGV within Switzerland. I know the crews are Swiss and SBB is involved, but the trains are still essentially German and French.


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> Zürich - Brussel is apparently of the table. A pity. That route really needs some improvement in the service offered.


Isn't that route faster via the LGV Est + LGV Nord + HSL-1?


----------



## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> Isn't that route faster via the LGV Est + LGV Nord + HSL-1?


I'm pretty sure it is. SBB website offers routes via Paris and via Frankfurt. The former is 50 min faster and that is including 45 min for changing stations in Paris. 

Is it possible to switch from LGV Est to LGV Nord without entering Paris? If so another hour could be saved on this route. 5 1/2 h trip would already be attractive to significant number of people.


----------



## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> Is it possible to switch from LGV Est to LGV Nord without entering Paris? If so another hour could be saved on this route. 5 1/2 h trip would already be attractive to significant number of people.


Absolutely, it is possible to avoid Paris entirely using the Interconnexion Est. Here is the junction between LGV Est and the connector, which goes under CDG airport and joins the LGV Nord


----------



## rower2000

Sunfuns said:


> Which international services are currently being run by SBB? I'm aware only of routes to Milan plus some suburban routes here in Basel area…


Zurich-Munich is 4x daily on SBB EC trains, as is the Chur-Zurich-Luxembourg-Brussels service (IIRC it's all SBB coaches now, with the Belgian coaches pulled off the route a couple of years ago). I'm not sure about the Interlaken-Bern-Luxembourg-Brussels route, but I think it's SBB coaches as well. The Zurich-Innsbruck-Graz train uses ÖBB coaches but has a 1st class SBB panorama coach included in the stack.

Edit: My info on the Brussels routes is obviously outdated. Looks like they only start from Basel now, so I do not know what coaches they use!


----------



## MarcVD

rower2000 said:


> My info on the Brussels routes is obviously outdated. Looks like they only start from Basel now, so I do not know what coaches they use!


SNCB coaches again since December 15th. See
http://www.wallorail.be/actu2013/in...-voitures-cff-sur-les-eurocity-vauban-et-iris (in french)


----------



## Momo1435

The "seehas" services in Germany between Konstanz, Radolfzell, Singen and Engen are also operated by the SBB, they use Flirts on this regional service.


----------



## earthJoker

Opening ceremony of the DML was today.


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## Suburbanist

Does anyone know about the official internal language policy of SBB/FFS/CFF? Does it have some departments that work in one language and others in a different one? Are managers above certain level required to be trilingual?


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## Coccodrillo

Train conductors (I'm not sure it's the correct term, I mean those who check the tickets) have to speak the languages of the lines they work on (which basically means German, German+French, or German+Italian). I think it's the same for train drivers. The level required in the non-mother language is not high, B1 I think (and one can clearly notice that hearing announcements).

In the photo above you can see Andreas Meyer (SBB's CEO, second from the right) and Doris Leuthard (Transport Minister, the one in the middle), both of them also speak Italian (not fluently).

Generally speaking, I'm not aware of any formal requirement about languages in Swiss federal politic, but the ministers always speak German and French, MPs often do. Sometimes ministers and MPs who are not Italian-speaking (or Romansh-) also speak Italian. Language proportions are roughly 64% German (Alemannic), 20% French, 7% Italian, 1% Romansh. As far I remember, only one minister (ferderal councilior) since 1848 was a Romansh-speaker.


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## Sunfuns

Most if not all conductors also speak passable English.


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## CRS-moto

DML is really cool!


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...w/view/synthetic-wood-sleepers-installed.html
> 
> *Synthetic wood sleepers installed*
> 14 Jun 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SWITZERLAND: BLS is installing FFU synthetic wood sleepers supplied by Japanese firm Sekisui at three sites for trials.
> 
> The first installation was at Frutigen station, where FFU turnout bearers are being tested.
> 
> The fibre-reinforced foam urethane sleepers were supplied pre-drilled to SBB's Hägendorf workshop, where the turnouts were prefabricated for transport to the worksite in two panels


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## Suburbanist

Why not go to ballastless tracks once and for all?


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Why not go to ballastless tracks once and for all?


Because it's expensive.


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> Because it's expensive.


But cheaper in the long-term, isn't it?


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> But cheaper in the long-term, isn't it?


I'm quite certain BLS and SBB know how to perform a life cycle cost-benefit analysis. And they're used to plan decades ahead...


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## Fatfield

I'm after a bit of advice please.

I'm thinking of going to the Geneva Motorshow next year but instead of stopping in Geneva as we usually do we're thinking of staying in Lausanne. We would be flying into Geneva on the Friday and leaving on the Sunday. I realise that the Palexpo is at the airport but what would be the best ticket(s) to get?


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## Vaud

^^ AFAIK every year the CFF sell special tickets for the event, see here: http://www.cff.ch/loisirs-et-vacanc...t-auto_salon.html?WT.i_marketingurl=salonauto

If you have tickets, you can get a 10% discount, otherwise you can buy the combined Motor show+rail ticket together, either directly on the normal machines or from their travel agents, and it offers an additional 30% discount on the entry ticket.

Since you are arriving from Geneva airport, you would need a normal one-way ticket for friday to Lausanne, you could get the special combined one for saturday, and the 10% on sunday for a one-way ticket, although I'm 75% certain you can't get the discount for one-way trips. So basically, save for saturday, you can't get anything better than the normal rail tickets since Lausanne is not over 100km away from Geneva.


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## Coccodrillo

Remember that Geneva Airport - Lausanne second class one way is 26 CHF, or around 21 EUR (because discounts are available for frequent users).


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## Fatfield

Thanks Vaud & Coccodrillo.


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## Coccodrillo

Some infos about the ETR 470/ETR 610:
* with the new timetable since Sudnay 15th June the Gotthard EC seem more reliable, but they are sistematically delaying Milan suburban trains (nearly conflicting paths: Milan suburban network timetable was planned with a different time slot for EuroCitys in mind)
* trains EC 317 and 320 are made with an ICN and a 6-car Flirt, with transhipment in Lugano (note that a 6-car Flirt offers 140 less seats than the ETR 470 it replaces...)
* two of the eight new ETR 610 (now renamed RABe 503 by SBB) will enter service in November on trains 317 and 320 (one in service, one held in reserve)
* a Bellinzona-Milano round trip might be created in the future, to bring back the RABe 503 in Switzerland for the night (cleaning, light maintenance, and prevention of vandalism)
* more RABe 503s will replaces SBB's ETR 470s starting from 2015
* but Trenitalia's ETR 470s will continue to run on the Gotthard at least until December 2015 (or until when enough ETR 400s will be delivered so that to free up existing ETR 610s)

That's all for now. Remember that since the end of Cisalpino the ETR 470s and ETR 610s have become two (four) separate fleets, so that a service booked for an SBB's 470 will never be worked by a Trenitalia's 470, although they were originally identical. But that's not the case anymore: as far I know, SBB's 470s have received new toilets of a different type, then SBB and Trenitalia use different catering services for the restaurant cars, and obviously there are different logos and information panels between the two fleets. The same happens for the 610s, although Trenitalia's 610s do not run on EC services anymore.


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## Suburbanist

^^ "Prevention of vandalism" sounds like just a cheap jab at RFI.


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## quimporte

Hey guys,

As I’m new to this thread, I don’t know if someone has already answered that very, very, very specific question:

When coming from Geneva, immediately after the Denges-Echandens station, there’s a junction for the trains to Yverdon. At that specific location, I identified a new switch, the beginning of a potential third railway in direction of Geneva, between the existing two railways and the freeway. Does anyone know something about it?

The new switch doesn’t appear yet on Google maps, but that’s the place wehre I saw it: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=denge...1.940452,2.059937&t=h&hnear=Denges,+Vaud&z=21

Is it the beginning of a potential third railway in direction of Geneva, or at least Morges? Given the confined place, it would mean, in my view, the removing of the mountain side platform of the Denges-Echandens station.


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## Coccodrillo

Does it separate from the Yverdon-Morges chord? If it is that (which is suppose), it is quite certainly a catch point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_points

Basically, it is a switch that leads to nothing, used only to derail a train (which is considered better than a head-on collision with a train on another track).

Not all countries require with the same frequency them on their railways. In Switzerland they are quite rare here another example), while in Italy they are more common.

A typical use of catch points is on single track lines. With these switches, at crossing loops two trains can enter the station at the same time without the danger of a head-on collision if one cannot brake (not that a derailment is safe...).

Sometimes catch points are even simpler, even just a movable section on one of the two rails. You can see some examples on Wikipedia.


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## quimporte

Coccodrillo said:


> Does it separate from the Yverdon-Morges chord? If it is that (which is suppose), it is quite certainly a catch point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_points
> 
> Basically, it is a switch that leads to nothing, used only to derail a train (which is considered better than a head-on collision with a train on another track).
> 
> Not all countries require with the same frequency them on their railways. In Switzerland they are quite rare here another example), while in Italy they are more common.
> 
> A typical use of catch points is on single track lines. With these switches, at crossing loops two trains can enter the station at the same time without the danger of a head-on collision if one cannot brake (not that a derailment is safe...).
> 
> Sometimes catch points are even simpler, even just a movable section on one of the two rails. You can see some examples on Wikipedia.


Oh, OK. So I guess you’re right. It exactly looks like that:










The main line on the drawing would symbolize the mountain side railway linking Geneva to Lausanne, and the siding the beginning of the line in direction of Yverdon. The only thing is that the trains are going in the opposite direction than the one indicated on the drawing. So, if a train follows the green arrow, it would be got off the rails before a hypothetical collision with a train coming from Geneva (from the left).

Crazy. I never heard of that. But if that happens one day, I’m pretty sure that all the people wating on the platform at that moment would be crushed and die. The concept doesn’t look very safe.

Thanx for the explanation.


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## dimlys1994

From London SE1. The news takes place in London, but contains famous Swiss icon:



> http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/7669
> 
> *Swiss Railway Clock installed at Borough Market as Olympic legacy*
> Wednesday 25 June 2014
> 
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> 
> _Swiss ambassador Dominik Furgler addresses guests at the unveiling ceremony_
> 
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> 
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> 
> _Underneath the clock a plaque records the gift to the people of Southwark_
> 
> _Two years after Bankside hosted the House of Switzerland during the Olympic and Paralympic Games, a Swiss Railway Clock has been installed in Borough Market as gift to the people of Southwark_
> 
> During the summer of 2012 more than 250,000 people visited the House of Switzerland, the national hospitality centre that showcased contemporary Swiss cuisine, design, music and tourism activities during the Olympics and Paralympics.
> 
> The house was based at Glaziers Hall, The Mug House pub, Southwark Cathedral's Millennium Courtyard, Cathedral Square, and La Cave restaurant during the Paralympics.
> 
> Now Swiss watchmaker Mondaine has given Southwark one of its clocks based on the design seen at every railway station in Switzerland.
> 
> The clock was blessed on Wednesday morning by the Dean of Southwark, the Very Revd Andrew Nunn, and unveiled by the Mayor of Southwark Cllr Sunil Chopra and Dominik Furgler, ambassador of Switzerland to the UK.
> 
> "I am delighted that Borough Market will have a new Swiss ingredient to add to its rich existing mix," said Dominik Furgler.
> 
> "The railway clock is an iconic design that combines classic style with effective public service.
> 
> "I am sure it will become an integral part of the market's rhythm and routine, as well as an enduring reminder of the friendship between Switzerland and Southwark built up over the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games."
> 
> Cllr Dora Dixon-Fyle, Southwark Council's cabinet member for adult care, arts and culture, said: "Southwark was very proud to be able to host the House of Switzerland during the London 2012 Games and would like to thank the embassy for gifting the borough with such a wonderful Swiss railway clock.
> 
> "I'm sure it will quickly become a centrepiece of Borough Market, and will also act as a great legacy of such a special year for London in both sports and culture."
> 
> Borough Market managing director Keith Davis said: "The market is a 24-hour operation, so the clock will get no shortage of use: from visitors to the restaurants in the evening, the wholesalers through the night and the bakers in the very early morning, before the retail market begins to set up and the shoppers start to arrive."
> 
> Writer Diccon Bewes, who remarked that "punctuality is a national pastime" in Switzerland, reminded guests that 26 June 2014 will be the 151st anniversary of the first Thomas Cook tour of Switzerland which began at nearby London Bridge Station.
> 
> To coincide with the installation of the clock, posters designed by students of Camberwell College of Arts and the Zurich University of the Arts are on display in the Market Hall at Borough Market. The exhibition will move to Southwark Council's Tooley Street offices later this year.


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## Vaud

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What are chances of reopening the French sector of the railway going on the southern bank of Lac Lman?


Found it back, here's the number of commuters in the region:










Arrows pointing to the left: Arrivals
Arrows pointing to the right: Departures

For example, the wide grey line linking Geneva to Vaud, means that +20,000 commuters go from Vaud to Geneva.

As you can see, the relation between Geneva and Valais is absolutely negligible


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## Coccodrillo

^^ There is not much Geneva-Valais traffic, but still it would be nice to reopen that line. The right of way is still here, as is most of the track...



quimporte said:


> Crazy. I never heard of that. But if that happens one day, I’m pretty sure that all the people wating on the platform at that moment would be crushed and die. The concept doesn’t look very safe.
> 
> Thanx for the explanation.


You are welcome.

Here another clear example. It is at Bignami terminus station of automatic Milan metro line 5. Trains on this line run on the right, but the same track is also used by trains maneuvering in the depot. With this catch point, a train can maneuver (guided manually) on the track without risking to start running on the mainline, where a train might be coming. Crashing an empty train there would not be nice but likely less disruptive than having a head-on collision between that train and a train full of passengers coming from the other direction.

I took the photo from the platform edge. As I said, this is the terminus station, so trains usually arrive and depart from the platform I am on, while depot movements are done on the other plarform on my left. The catch point is pointing on the tunnel wall, which is the standard position for these switches.


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...atenary-maintenance-vehicles.html?channel=542
> 
> *SBB orders Harsco catenary maintenance vehicles*
> Wednesday, July 02, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SWISS Federal Railways (SBB) has awarded Harsco a SFr 100m ($US 113m) contract to supply 59 catenary maintenance and renewal vehicles, which will replace older units and expand the fleet to meet future maintenance requirements.
> 
> The project will be managed by Harsco Rail Europe, which is based in Ratingen (Germany), and will involve several Swiss companies that are supplying maintenance equipment for the Gotthard and Ceneri base tunnels, including ABB, Railtec Nystems, Nencki, Ferriere Cattaneo and Joseph Meyer.
> 
> The new vehicles will be delivered between March 2016 and September 2017, and will be used across Switzerland.
> 
> Last October SBB awarded Harsco a contract to supply 31 Utility Track Vehicles (UTVs), including 13 powered units, for maintenance in the Gotthard and Ceneri base tunnels. MTU announced on July 1 that it has received a contract to supply 700kW underfloor powerpacks for the 13 powered vehicles based on the 12-cylinder MTU 12V 1600 R80L diesel engine.


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## Coccodrillo

Some photos taken yesterday on the Mesolcina railway.

Tracks around Roveredo (here: http://goo.gl/maps/QhYjc) have already been removed, but the other sections of the line are still in place. The section south of there will be soon demolished.

Looking southwards.










Looking northwards.










From an overpass. The road (A13 expressway) will be replaced by a tunnel in 2016, so it will be demolished as will the railway, so that this part of the village can be rebuild (a place, trees, and so on).










One of the three Moesa river bridges.










The new terminus of the line. It is the southernmost point of the northern half of the line. This section of the line is just 4 km long, but it has a depot where trains are stored. Trains may run there until 2020, end of the federal concession on the infrastructure.

The photo has been taken here: http://goo.gl/maps/eJKxA

Tourists on this line averaged 2.000 to 4.000 trips a year, with two thirds of the line closed down traffic will drop significantly. The original line was 31,3 km long. It is not officially known what will happen after 2020, but a complete demolition is very likely.










Previous posts about this railway are here:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=90432523&postcount=672
The second photo shows the depot which will remain in place, the othes photos shows sections that have already been dismantled or will be soon removed. The two red-white railcars were built for the Appenzeller Bahnen and will likely be demolished or sold (at least one), because they were not built for this line, while the green-white railcar was built for the nearby Biasca-Acquarossa line and will be preserved. The last photo is the bridge now without tracks shown above.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=107448410&postcount=1314
Here is again the depot, and two photos of tracks around Castione-Arbedo, which will be soon removed to make place for a regional bus station and a park&ride.


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## Coccodrillo

The Swiss side of the Mendrisio-Varese railway ends abruptly just before the border.

In the following map, the border is along the vertical road-footpath (which, itself, is in Switzerland): http://map.geo.admin.ch/?X=77405.13...=en&topic=ech&bgLayer=ch.swisstopo.swissimage

You can find traces of a tunnel and a bridge on the Italian side, but just after the border there is nothing.










The fences in the background circle the work site, after them there is the footpath, and then the border.



















The overhead line ends some hundred metres before the end of the tracks.










The line here is complete, but leads to nothing. The view is looking towars the Gotthardbahn, behind me there is no passenger station nor sidings, so for the time being these two tracks will be useless. On the right there is an industrial siding and the Valmorea line (which sees a few tourist trains a year).










The line will open to passenger trains next December until Stabio, which is around one kilometre north of the last photo. The Italian side of the line might open in 2016 (but I don't think so).


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## Coccodrillo

Some videos from Swiss state television, in French. I have seen only the third one for now, I liked it, but I cannot judge the others.

The Great St Bernard tunnel, in a video from 1962:

http://www.rts.ch/archives/tv/divers/3441341-au-coeur-des-alpes.html

Then the Mont Blanc tunnel, also in 1962:

http://www.rts.ch/archives/tv/divers/documentaires/3645862-tunnel-du-mont-blanc.html

The first proposals for the Gotthard base tunnel, in a video from 1972. At that time it was planned to be 45 km long, with the northern portal in Amsteg (where now there is a service access tunnel):

http://www.rts.ch/archives/tv/information/affaires-publiques/5527087-tunnel-de-base.html

Finally, a description of some rail coaches with rubber wheels instead of steel wheels. They had to reduce their weight from 30 to 13 tonnes, but even witht his reduction, they needed two bogies with 5 axles each instead of just two for heavier coaches with steel wheels.

http://www.rts.ch/archives/tv/information/c-etait-hier/5527015-des-wagons-a-pneus.html


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## Nexis




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## ab_ltf

Swiss trains are efficient, neat and user friendly.

Was in Lausanne last week and did travel through trains. 

But they are very expensive. Think normal tickets cost round about twice as in France.....


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## AlexNL

ab_ltf said:


> Swiss trains are efficient, neat and user friendly.
> 
> Was in Lausanne last week and did travel through trains.
> 
> But they are very expensive. Think normal tickets cost round about twice as in France.....


Regular SBB tickets are rather expensive, indeed. No wonder lots of people have a Halbtax pass which gives a 50% discount, but this is probably not very interesting for a tourist.

SBB offers Supersaver tickets which give discounts up to 60%, but for this you are required to book in advance and your ticket is tied to a particular train. Depending on your journey this can work out well (if you like to plan your trip to the hour).


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## webeagle12

AlexNL said:


> Regular SBB tickets are rather expensive, indeed. No wonder lots of people have a Halbtax pass which gives a 50% discount, but this is probably not very interesting for a tourist.
> 
> SBB offers Supersaver tickets which give discounts up to 60%, but for this you are required to book in advance and your ticket is tied to a particular train. Depending on your journey this can work out well (if you like to plan your trip to the hour).


Or if it's worth it, get a rail pass if you on vacation there. I did it once and it was worth it every penny to me at least. All other times I book my tickets in advance


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## KingNick

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ There is not much Geneva-Valais traffic, but still it would be nice to reopen that line. The right of way is still here, as is most of the track...
> 
> 
> 
> You are welcome.
> 
> Here another clear example. It is at Bignami terminus station of automatic Milan metro line 5. Trains on this line run on the right, but the same track is also used by trains maneuvering in the depot. With this catch point, a train can maneuver (guided manually) on the track without risking to start running on the mainline, where a train might be coming. Crashing an empty train there would not be nice but likely less disruptive than having a head-on collision between that train and a train full of passengers coming from the other direction.
> 
> I took the photo from the platform edge. As I said, this is the terminus station, so trains usually arrive and depart from the platform I am on, while depot movements are done on the other plarform on my left. The catch point is pointing on the tunnel wall, which is the standard position for these switches.


This makes an awful lot of sense once explained. By just looking at the picture I was rather confused.


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## K_

AlexNL said:


> Regular SBB tickets are rather expensive, indeed. No wonder lots of people have a Halbtax pass which gives a 50% discount, but this is probably not very interesting for a tourist. SBB offers Supersaver tickets which give discounts up to 60%, but for this you are required to book in advance and your ticket is tied to a particular train. Depending on your journey this can work out well (if you like to plan your trip to the hour).


Public transport in Switzerland is expensive for occasional travelers, but actually rather cheap for frequent travelers. For example the GA is extremely good value, of a kind you won't find elsewhere, especially since public transport can for many people completely replace a car. (I have never owned a car myself...)
When I'm in a sarcastic mood I just say that it's all a hidden tax on tourists and stupid people.


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/europe/single-view/view/sbb-overspend-funded.html
> 
> *SBB overspend funded*
> 17 Jul 2014
> 
> SWITZERLAND: SBB announced on June 30 that it had reached agreement with the Federal Office for Transport over the financing of projected overspends in its infrastructure maintenance budget during the five-year plan period 2013-17.
> 
> Faced with increasing traffic volumes, SBB spent SF129m more than anticipated in 2013, and the overspend is projected to continue at SFr150m per year until 2016. Under the agreement, SBB has agreed to cover the extra outlay in 2014-15 through cost savings and increased revenue. The 2016 overspend will be met from the Rail Infrastructure Fund, which will be available to draw on from that year.
> 
> Some small upgrading and renewal projects are to be postponed until after 2017, but the ministry says that major projects in the NEAT, ZEB and high speed connections will not be affected, nor will the STEP 2025 package approved by a referendum in February. Both parties insisted that safety and punctuality would remain the top priorities


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## quimporte

AlexNL said:


> Regular SBB tickets are rather expensive, indeed. No wonder lots of people have a Halbtax pass which gives a 50% discount, but this is probably not very interesting for a tourist.
> 
> SBB offers Supersaver tickets which give discounts up to 60%, but for this you are required to book in advance and your ticket is tied to a particular train. Depending on your journey this can work out well (if you like to plan your trip to the hour).


Apart SBB executives, who really knows if the prices are fair or not. Personally, I have a doubt.

The half-fare pass is something interesting. Do you pay half of the price of the ticket if you have the pass, or do you pay twice the price if you don’t have it?

Considering that most of the people that live in Switzerland and take the train quite often, but not every day, have such a half-fare pass, I can’t help but think that it’s rather a disguised tax and not a discount card.

SBB would have gone bankrupt long ago if most of the travelers pay only half of the price – never mind all the owners of general system pass – even if it is a semi-state company.


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## CRS-moto

Half price means half price!


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## Vaud

quimporte said:


> SBB would have gone bankrupt long ago if most of the travelers pay only half of the price


I doubt it. The number of trips done by travellers without a demi-tarif is really small, and I don't make up the figures, here they are:










Those travellers do around 400km in trips by rail per year.

Compared to those with a public transportation subscription + half-fare, only public transportation subscription or only half-fare, they represent a negligible amount.


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## Sunfuns

Vaud, I think he meant something different. The idea is that SBB is setting a price for their services which is sufficient for up keeping the system and earning a modest profit (half fare and/or GA, local subscriptions excluded as those are subsidised) and THEN doubling the price for remaining few very occasional users and unsuspecting tourists.


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## quimporte

Sunfuns said:


> Vaud, I think he meant something different. The idea is that SBB is setting a price for their services which is sufficient for up keeping the system and earning a modest profit (half fare and/or GA, local subscriptions excluded as those are subsidised) and THEN doubling the price for remaining few very occasional users and unsuspecting tourists.


You got it Sunfuns.


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## quimporte

CRS-moto said:


> Half price means half price!


Do you work for SBB? :lol:


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## Suburbanist

The stategy is not unique to SBB/CFF/FSS. 

Here in the Netherlands, NS does a similar thing - stand-alone fares are high, but everyone riding trains more than twice a month (for a one-way distance of 60km or so) is better off buying some subscription plan that gives discounts, free use on certain times etc. 

What the companies are trying to do is to lock-in the costumers. It is a strategy used by many other business that operate on similar concepts (you pay for some "membership" or "subscription" that gives you a hefty discount on purchase of a recurring service/product, then you are likely to overestimate the impact of the discount and seek competing options less often. In this case, it means that if SBB costumers are average humans, they overemphasize the impact of their discount cards, and are less likely to seek alternative transportation options (mainly cars in the case of Switzerland).


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## MarcVD

Suburbanist said:


> The stategy is not unique to SBB/CFF/FSS.


Indeed. Owning a car is exactly the same...


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> What the companies are trying to do is to lock-in the costumers. It is a strategy used by many other business that operate on similar concepts (you pay for some "membership" or "subscription" that gives you a hefty discount on purchase of a recurring service/product, then you are likely to overestimate the impact of the discount and seek competing options less often. In this case, it means that if SBB costumers are average humans, they overemphasize the impact of their discount cards, and are less likely to seek alternative transportation options (mainly cars in the case of Switzerland).


This of course only works if you offer a network that can replace a car. You need a high quality, integrated public transportation network for that. It also matters whether you see public transport as a social service, or as a normal part of a middle class lifestyle.


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## Nexis




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## steple

Swiss National Day, 1st of August


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## steple

Albula line with the famous Landwasser viaduct:


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## Suburbanist

Do they run steam trains on that line to this day??? Isn't that WAY unsafe for modern standards of safety, air quality inside tunnels and other regulations???


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## steple

Of course, everyone travels like this... :rock:


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## StuZealand

Suburbanist said:


> Do they run steam trains on that line to this day??? Isn't that WAY unsafe for modern standards of safety, air quality inside tunnels and other regulations???


Special excursion trains. Like for Swiss National Day. hno:


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## Momo1435

The biggest problem with these special steam trains is the risk of fires around the tracks. Therefor they are always followed by a special fire train with a big tank of water to extinguish any fires along the line.


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## Suburbanist

I didn't assume it was a regular scheduled train, just thought it is dangerous. At least dangerous according to our contemporary standards and expectations of safety, risk-avoidance and prevention of fires or soot-filled air.


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## Vaud

Suburbanist said:


> I didn't assume it was a regular scheduled train, just thought it is dangerous. At least dangerous according to our contemporary standards and expectations of safety, risk-avoidance and prevention of fires or soot-filled air.


Oh suburbanist... do you ever leave your safe home?


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## CRS-moto

Landwasser-Viadukt. Cool!


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## steple

Regular trains on this line look like this, here in January 2014:


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## steple

And for Suburbanist: SBB has just bought new fire-fighting and rescue trains, called LRZ14: 










This one will serve mainly for the Gotthard line, including the new base tunnel. It can reach up to 100 km/h. Three of the four cars are self-propelled with two 390 kW diesel motors each.










Presentation during the public day for the opening of the DML line in Zürich:










On the left the still operational train LRZ96, with the water supply and fire fighting car:


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## MarcVD

Suburbanist said:


> I didn't assume it was a regular scheduled train, just thought it is dangerous. At least dangerous according to our contemporary standards and expectations of safety, risk-avoidance and prevention of fires or soot-filled air.


I'm a member of an organization that regularly organizes special trains made
of heritage rolling stock. I can ensure you that this stock is controlled as 
rigorously as the stock used for regular trains. If a steam loco is kept well
clean and maintained, and the coal used is of the correct quality, the risk of
starting a fire is almost nil. The smoke indeed contains cinders but not
incandescent. In fact, the biggest risk is the lack of discipline from 
participants when the train is stopped to take pictures. Here this would not
be a problem, as the line is single track...


----------



## Coccodrillo

During the celebrations for the 125 years of the Gotthardbahn one train lead by a modern electric locomotive stopped for more than an hour inside a tunnel because the smoke of the preceding steam loco activated fire alarms in the modern loco. I was luky because I wanted to board the train that stopped, but I lost it arriving a few seconds too late in Erstfeld station.


----------



## Vaud

Suburbanist won't like this sign of success...

http://www.tdg.ch/suisse/suisses-parcourent-kilometres-train/story/31441660



> Les 2307 km parcourus placent la Suisse nettement en tête au niveau mondial, écrit mardi la LITRA dans un communiqué. Le Japon est loin derrière (1912), précédant la France (1301), l'Autriche (1280) et le Danemark (1190)


From the press release: http://www.litra.ch/fr/News/Les-News--les-communiqus-de-presse/Newsmeldung?newsid=7948&teaserId=5 (in french and german only)










Switzerland tops one more year the number of km travelled by railway users according to the International Union of Railways, way ahead of the second contender (Japan) and the rest of countries.


----------



## Suburbanist

Vaud said:


> Suburbanist won't like this sign of success...
> 
> [...]
> 
> Switzerland tops one more year the number of km travelled by railway users according to the International Union of Railways, way ahead of the second contender (Japan) and the rest of countries.


Why wouldn't I like it. I just think long-distance services are crappy-ish and speed is forgotten, which would bring these numbers even higher - imagine if people could commute from Interlaken to Zurich, realistically, on a daily basis, they could live near beautiful mountains and still have jobs not present on the Bernese Oberland

There is something that needs to be clarified though: which types of railways are included on this calculation or not? What about subways? Hybrid systems (like French RER)? Tram-train networks?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Some time ago Geneva-Lausanne (and viceversa) traffic was theoretically forbidden on Geneva-Milan EC trains, but all other traffic allowed.



Suburbanist said:


> Are the car shuttles (Lötschberg, Oberalp, Vareinna, Abula, Simplon) all financially self-sufficient?


I think the Lötschberg is self-sufficient, the Vereina nearly self-sufficient, the others more or less heavily subsidized. It's just what I remember having read somewhere in the past, thought, I have no sources.

By the way, since sometime after the opening of the Vereina shuttle and improvement on the Julier pass road, the Albula service doesn't run anymore (since 2010 or so - it ran mainly if not only in winter); and the Oberalp shuttle is just a service for local traffic with 3 to 4 departures a day per direction only when the road is closed during winter.

The Lötschberg, Furka and Vereina shuttles also carry trucks, but not the bigger ones (I think the limit is around 28 tonnes and 3.6/3.8 metres in heigth).


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Why wouldn't I like it. I just think long-distance services are crappy-ish and speed is forgotten, which would bring these numbers even higher -


I wouldn't call the service "crappy-ish" it is certainly better than intercity services in comparable countries, like Belgium or the Netherlands. Speed is actually quite good, given the geography. I can get to most places I need to be for my work using public transist in a time comparable to what it would take to do this by car. Remember that what counts is not the speed of the vehicles, but the speed of the passengers. Speeding up a train so that passengers only end up spending more time at stations (as is often the case in France or Italy) is not an efficient use of resources...
That is the reason for the high useage: That the system actually enables lots of people to exclusively get around using public transport. There are not a lot of places in Europe where this is possible.



> imagine if people could commute from Interlaken to Zurich, realistically, on a daily basis, they could live near beautiful mountains and still have jobs not present on the Bernese Oberland


So you think it would be a good idea to spend billions to destroy the Berner Oberland?
I think you'll have a hard time to convince the inhabitants of the Berner Oberland that you are not completely out of your mind...


----------



## rower2000

Rail accident in Graubünden near Tiefencastel:
http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/ostschweiz/story/Alle-Passagiere-sind-geborgen-18005231

A landslide blocked the track, three coaches derailed, one is hanging down into the woods. Reports say 5 serious injured, 2 with light injuries. All passengers are removed from the train.

Reminds me of the accident on the Arlberg railway in 1995 when a landslide destroyed a bridge - 4 killed, 12 with life threatening injuries. http://schienenfahrzeuge.netshadow.at/db/details.php?image_id=36844

Thank god all passengers survived this time. That shows again that a total control of nature is still impossible!


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## KingNick

A landslide on the Albula Railway has caused a train to derail hurting 5 people severely and 2 just slightly.


















http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/gr...gons-haengen-ueber-dem-abgrund-id3050642.html


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## Momo1435

Thanks for the sturdy trees this didn't result in a much bigger disaster from a casualty perspective. If the 2 carriages had fallen into the lake below it would have resulted in much bigger tragedy. Hopefully injuries of the people with serious injuries are not too bad (for example, a broken leg already counts as serious injury). 

This remains the biggest risk for this kind of railways, even with protective measures there's always a possibility of a landslide hitting the tracks in this kind of weather with lots of rain. But then the chances that it actually hits the train is pretty small. Although in this case it might have been the vibrations of the trains that were the trigger for the earth to start moving.


----------



## earthJoker

Suburbanist said:


> they could live near beautiful mountains and still have jobs not present on the Bernese Oberland


I live near beautiful mountains :bleep:
:moods:


----------



## webeagle12

K_ said:


> I wouldn't call the service "crappy-ish" it is certainly better than intercity services in comparable countries, like Belgium or the Netherlands. Speed is actually quite good, given the geography. I can get to most places I need to be for my work using public transist in a time comparable to what it would take to do this by car. Remember that what counts is not the speed of the vehicles, but the speed of the passengers. Speeding up a train so that passengers only end up spending more time at stations (as is often the case in France or Italy) is not an efficient use of resources...
> That is the reason for the high useage: That the system actually enables lots of people to exclusively get around using public transport. There are not a lot of places in Europe where this is possible.
> 
> 
> So you think it would be a good idea to spend billions to destroy the Berner Oberland?
> I think you'll have a hard time to convince the inhabitants of the Berner Oberland that you are not completely out of your mind...


Reading his posts you will go out your mind. He always have problem with something, mr safety expert. He probably never even step into SBB train, making his decisions by listening to CNN.


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## Suburbanist

webeagle12 said:


> Reading his posts you will go out your mind. He always have problem with something, mr safety expert. He probably never even step into SBB train, making his decisions by listening to CNN.


I have traveled around 2600km (roughly) in SBB trains in Switzerland over the course of years. Last time I rode a scheduled regular SBB train was in 2009.

I'm not counting the Gonergat rail and several cable cars/funiculars.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> I have traveled around 2600km (roughly) in SBB trains in Switzerland over the course of years. Last time I rode a scheduled regular SBB train was in 2009. I'm not counting the Gonergat rail and several cable cars/funiculars.


That's about what the average Swiss does in a year... Or what I do in 3 weeks...


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> That's about what the average Swiss does in a year... Or what I do in 3 weeks...


Yeah, I never lived in Switzerland, the closest was 50km south of the border.


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## quimporte

K_ said:


> I wouldn't call the service "crappy-ish" it is certainly better than intercity services in comparable countries, like Belgium or the Netherlands. Speed is actually quite good, given the geography. I can get to most places I need to be for my work using public transist in a time comparable to what it would take to do this by car. Remember that what counts is not the speed of the vehicles, but the speed of the passengers. Speeding up a train so that passengers only end up spending more time at stations (as is often the case in France or Italy) is not an efficient use of resources...
> That is the reason for the high useage: That the system actually enables lots of people to exclusively get around using public transport. There are not a lot of places in Europe where this is possible.
> 
> 
> So you think it would be a good idea to spend billions to destroy the Berner Oberland?
> I think you'll have a hard time to convince the inhabitants of the Berner Oberland that you are not completely out of your mind...


So far as they are, Swiss Railways are not significantly better than Dutch or Belgian Railways. It’s nothing but a fantasy. A certain speed (V200 for IC trains, V160 for IR trains) should be part of a good transportation offer.

SBB are extremely slow, it’s a fact. Except a few lines allowing V200, a lot of sections are limited to ridiculously low speeds, even on the main line between Geneva and St. Gallen. V100 is a joke!!!

You’re talking about geography. Haven’t you heard about shinkansen bullet trains? Japan or Taiwan are as mountainous as Switzerland, yet that didn’t stop them building high-speed lines.

The speed of the passengers depends on the short connection time AND the speed of the trains. But in reality, how many people need an onward connection? Personally, in most cases, I don’t need to change train, except if I’m going to Berner Oberland. The Swiss system with nodal stations is old hat.

It’s time for high-speed trains between all the major cities, that’s all. The rest of the country can keep sleeping quietly, don’t worry.


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## MarcVD

quimporte said:


> So far as they are, Swiss Railways are not significantly better than Dutch or Belgian Railways.


At the exception of the punctuality.

And there must certainly be a rational explanation to the fact that swiss 
people who are using public transport the most, worldwide.


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## radamfi

The Swiss rail network is particularly dense, much more so than, say the Netherlands. In the Netherlands you need to use buses to get to many towns whereas nearly all towns of reasonable size in Switzerland are rail served. Or in the Netherlands the route between two stations is not direct whereas it is in Switzerland.

I expect that graph of train distance per inhabitant is distorted in some cases by commuter networks into big cities. The UK does better than the Netherlands on it but it is hard to believe that the UK network is better. Almost anyone travelling to London goes by train because the alternatives are so much worse and London has a vast commuter network. I expect the same could be said for Paris. Maybe even Zurich.


----------



## quimporte

radamfi said:


> The Swiss rail network is particularly dense, much more so than, say the Netherlands. In the Netherlands you need to use buses to get to many towns whereas nearly all towns of reasonable size in Switzerland are rail served. Or in the Netherlands the route between two stations is not direct whereas it is in Switzerland.
> 
> I expect that graph of train distance per inhabitant is distorted in some cases by commuter networks into big cities. The UK does better than the Netherlands on it but it is hard to believe that the UK network is better. Almost anyone travelling to London goes by train because the alternatives are so much worse and London has a vast commuter network. I expect the same could be said for Paris. Maybe even Zurich.


The high density of SBB’s network is certainly a part of the answer. But I think that the frequency of services is another key point.

Who never missed a train for just a minute and then had to wait during one hour for the next one. That drives you mad. To avoid such situation, people might prefer to take a car, which gives much more flexibility. On the other hand, if there’s a train every quarter of an hour (which is the next development step on specific sections), then you don’t even need to check the time, and catch the first train that passes by. So, a railway company must, above all, offer good frequencies. 250 places every 15 minutes is much better than 1000 places every hour.

Then you mentionned the commuter networks. SBB and the Cantons (that are responsible for the local networks) have been very clever in developing many commuter networks around the Swiss cities (e.g. Zurich, Bern, Basel or Lausanne), but also around many towns or within Cantons/Regions (e.g. St. Gallen, Zug/Lucerne, Aargau, Ticino, etc.), each network having its own basic corporate identity.

That advanced development on local level is probably the key to SBB’s success, since the national network has a more limited growth potential.


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## Suburbanist

Comparisons with Netherlands are tricky in terms of local urban transportation, because the widespread uses of bikes reduces use of public transportation more than that of cars, compared to similar areas in Europe.


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## Coccodrillo

The target is to have within 10 to 15 years a train every 30' on all IC routes, and every 15' on Geneva-Lausanne, Basel-Zürich and Berne-Zürich (and likely also St Gallen-Zürich and Lucerne-Zürich). By then also many regional services will likely be every 30'.

Because of the rapid increase of traffic it has been decided to first increase capacity than speed.



> The speed of the passengers depends on the short connection time AND the speed of the trains.


On Paris-Marseille that's true, on Lancy-Palézieux is not.

That said, some lines are really slow (like Lausanne-Berne), but as I said, it has been decided to invest money where it is most needed. However, with the new rail fund approved last February, new projects will might become reality: what will be built in the next phase will be decided by 2018.


----------



## quimporte

Coccodrillo said:


> On Paris-Marseille that's true, on Lancy-Palézieux is not.


Why not??? It’s not similar scale, but it’s impossible to separate connection time and the speed of the trains.




Coccodrillo said:


> …it has been decided to invest money where it is most needed.


Needed by SBB for their new clients. But what do passengers need? Long time SBB users don’t care about new seats. They want a substantial improvement of speed, which is, I think, the biggest challenge for the next years.

SBB’s mission should not be just transporting as many people as possible from point A to point B, without any consideration for speed. In 2014, it’s still much quicker by car than by train between Geneva and St. Gallen. That must really change.


----------



## Suburbanist

quimporte said:


> SBB’s mission should not be just transporting as many people as possible from point A to point B, without any consideration for speed. In 2014, it’s still much quicker by car than by train between Geneva and St. Gallen. That must really change.


That route should have a HSL connecting Geneve-Lausanne-Bern-Zurich-St. Gallen


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## AlexNL

Coccodrillo said:


> The target is to have within 10 to 15 years a train every 30' on all IC routes, and every 15' on Geneva-Lausanne, Basel-Zürich and Berne-Zürich (and likely also St Gallen-Zürich and Lucerne-Zürich). By then also many regional services will likely be every 30'.


I might be spoilt, but to me that sounds like a rather low frequency for the renowned Swiss rail system. 

Here in the Netherlands highly frequent (at least 4 trains per hour) IC services are offered between the major stations, it's not until after 20:00 that the frequency starts to decrease.

- Eindhoven - Utrecht: 4 IC trains per hour
- Utrecht - Amsterdam: 4 ICs per hour
- Nijmegen - Arnhem - Utrecht: 4 IC trains per hour
- Utrecht - Schiphol: same

- Rotterdam - The Hague HS: 6 IC trains per hour, of which 4 continue towards Amsterdam and 2 towards The Hague Centraal. 
- The Hague HS - Amsterdam: 4 trains per hour, 2 via Schiphol, 2 via Haarlem. 
- The Hague Centraal - Haarlem - Amsterdam: 2 trains per hour. 
- The Hague - Schiphol - Amsterdam Zuid: two trains per hour that continue all the way to Zwolle, after that alternating to Groningen and Leeuwarden.
- Rotterdam - Schiphol/Amsterdam: 2 IC Direct services per hour, during rush hour one additional train runs. Somewhere in the future this will go up to 4x/hour in the future. 

Besides that there are also lots of local trains that run at least twice an hour, but even there higher frequencies are more or less the norm. 

Apart from that, the Dutch government, ProRail and NS are working on plans to further increase capacity and frequency during rush hour. The plan is to offer up to 6 IC trains per hour between the major cities. See Rijksoverheid.nl for details (in Dutch).


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## Coccodrillo

On the lines I cited, there will not be more than 4 IC trains per hour, however, there will be more of other types.

For instance, the target on Geneva-Lausanne is (not before 2030) 4 IC (no-stop), 4 IR (2 stops), 4 RE (7 stops), 4 omnibus (these latter not on the whole line, but on the extreme sections); which is roughly the double than today. Service on Basel-Zürich now is made by 5 tph, but again on different services: 2 no-stop and 1 IR via the Hauenstein line, and 2 IR via the Bözberg line (one of these skipping Zürich HB and going directly to the airport).

Also frequency between nearby small cities is quite high, like Bellinzona-Lugano (40.000 and 100.000 inhabitants respectively) with up to 5 tph on peak hours.

However, IC/IR every 15' still doesn't exist in Switzerland, with the exception of a few extra peak trains on a few lines.

Service on other lines now cannot be extended because of lack of capacity, for example Lucerne-Zürich is still partly single track, even if these (short but limiting) single track sections handle 170 or so trains a day.

You can find today's "netzgraph" here, together with older versions: http://www.sma-partner.ch/en/about-sma/downloads

On a side note, the Netherlands have the double of population than Switzerland on the same land area (around 41.300 km2 for both countries), but half of Swiss territory are mountains* that cannot be settled, so the actual density should be similar.

*theoretically 70%, but valley floors are quite inhabited


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## quimporte

Suburbanist said:


> That route should have a HSL connecting Geneve-Lausanne-Bern-Zurich-St. Gallen


That’s what I meant. But it would also make sense to have new high-speed sections between Basel and Bern, Basel and Zurich.

The crazy thing is that a few decades ago (I don’t remember exactly how many) the Swiss folk refused by referendum the construction of a new high-speed network. The reason was a hypothetical exclusion of the back country from further investments in local services. In the meanwhile, the Bern-Olten section is the only HSL that has been constructed yet.

The result is that nowadays the local services are largely oversized in some isolated regions, and the national services (IC and IR) are extremely slow because they’re still running on old historical tracks, the same that were used by steam trains in the past.


----------



## quimporte

AlexNL said:


> I might be spoilt, but to me that sounds like a rather low frequency for the renowned Swiss rail system.
> 
> Here in the Netherlands highly frequent (at least 4 trains per hour) IC services are offered between the major stations, it's not until after 20:00 that the frequency starts to decrease.
> 
> - Eindhoven - Utrecht: 4 IC trains per hour
> - Utrecht - Amsterdam: 4 ICs per hour
> - Nijmegen - Arnhem - Utrecht: 4 IC trains per hour
> - Utrecht - Schiphol: same
> 
> - Rotterdam - The Hague HS: 6 IC trains per hour, of which 4 continue towards Amsterdam and 2 towards The Hague Centraal.
> - The Hague HS - Amsterdam: 4 trains per hour, 2 via Schiphol, 2 via Haarlem.
> - The Hague Centraal - Haarlem - Amsterdam: 2 trains per hour.
> - The Hague - Schiphol - Amsterdam Zuid: two trains per hour that continue all the way to Zwolle, after that alternating to Groningen and Leeuwarden.
> - Rotterdam - Schiphol/Amsterdam: 2 IC Direct services per hour, during rush hour one additional train runs. Somewhere in the future this will go up to 4x/hour in the future.
> 
> Besides that there are also lots of local trains that run at least twice an hour, but even there higher frequencies are more or less the norm.
> 
> Apart from that, the Dutch government, ProRail and NS are working on plans to further increase capacity and frequency during rush hour. The plan is to offer up to 6 IC trains per hour between the major cities. See Rijksoverheid.nl for details (in Dutch).


Swiss people should maybe review their certainties and begin to understand that the Swiss railways are very good, but not as exceptional as they think. You gave us a perfect example of a very performing Dutch network. It can make us dream.

And what about the speed limits in the Netherlands?


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## AlexNL

A couple of years ago, Dutch national railways merged their IC and IR train products. Overall IC journey times were lengthened a bit as the trains have to make some more stops, but it resulted in more trains serving smaller stations. This also made journey times somewhat more predictable as missing one train (and then taking the next one) means that you will simply arrive 15 minutes later. 

Take Schiedam for example, a satellite town to Rotterdam. Back in 2006, only IR and local trains served Schiedam. Both did so two times per hour, but IC trains did not stop. Nowadays, Schiedam sees four semi-fast trains per hour which makes for a much more attractive product despite the slightly longer journey times.

Regarding speeds: for historical reasons, most Dutch trains are limited to 140 km/h, with the exception of the high speed line. Many sections of track are limited to 130 km/h. Increasing the maximum speed along a section of track is mostly seen as a waste of money, as the time gained between two stations would be less than a minute.

However, infrastructure manager ProRail does realise that a speed increase is necessary for capacity reasons and to make the railways the most attractive form of long distance transportation. This is why they are hard at work to optimise the layout of the infrastructure, for example by building flyovers to prevent trains crossing others, and by changing the layout of tracks around stations so trains can enter and leave faster.

A couple of months ago ProRail finished the remodeling of 's-Hertogenbosch, trains can now enter and leave the station at a maximum speed of 80 km/h, which used to be 40. Similar work is being carried out around Utrecht (a major hub) and is being planned around Amsterdam.


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## radamfi

Sunfuns said:


> I think the cheapest possible way for long distance train travel in Switzerland for people without GA is to pick up Gemainde tageskarte from the municipality (limited availability). In Basel it costs 44 CHF and works like a one day GA. This is what I do when I have some visitors from abroad who would have no discounts otherwise.


Is it possible for someone from outside Switzerland to get one of these tickets if they don't know any Swiss residents?


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## Sunfuns

radamfi said:


> Is it possible for someone from outside Switzerland to get one of these tickets if they don't know any Swiss residents?


No, these could be bought only by residents. Quantity is also very limited, much easier to get if you live in a small village instead of Basel.


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## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> For instance, the target on Geneva-Lausanne is (not before 2030) 4 IC (no-stop), 4 IR (2 stops), 4 RE (7 stops), 4 omnibus (these latter not on the whole line, but on the extreme sections); *which is roughly the double than today. *Service on Basel-Zürich now is made by 5 tph, but again on different services: 2 no-stop and 1 IR via the Hauenstein line, and 2 IR via the Bözberg line (one of these skipping Zürich HB and going directly to the airport).


How do they intend to achieve doubling of frequency on this very busy stretch? Also what is omnibus?


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## thun

Sunfuns said:


> No, these could be bought only by residents. Quantity is also very limited, much easier to get if you live in a small village instead of Basel.


Yet they are a very, very, very priceworthy option as I discovered a few times (thank god I do have Swiss relatives in smaller villages). Like the GA, it also includes e.g. all ferries, busses and both Rigi railways.


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## Coccodrillo

Sunfuns said:


> How do they intend to achieve doubling of frequency on this very busy stretch? Also what is omnibus?


Building a third track between Renens and Allaman, a fourth between Lausanne and Renens, and additional tracks (up to 3 or 4) along other section to allow overtakings.

An omnibus train is one stopping at every station. It is a more technical and slightly old definition, it is not used on public announcements or documentation.

***************

You can sometimes find day passes also in Postal offices and some supermarkets, but these are usually more expensive, around 60 CHF or even more.

***************

@AlexNL: I doubt IC and IR can be merged in Switzerland. However, IR is quite a indefinite definition: IR on the Gotthard make just a little less stops than Zug's line S2, while Geneva-Lucerne IRs make stops with the same frequency of ICs, except two additional stops just before Lucerne. In addition, they don't have a restaurant car, which SBB wants to have on trains to class them as ICs.


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## quimporte

Coccodrillo, could I find somewhere, in an open-source document (book or internet), the speed limits on SBB’s network and specific sections?


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## Coccodrillo

There might be one, but I don't know any.

I can cite a few cases I'm quite sure, but that's all:
* Gotthard railway generally 80 km/h, a few more for tilting trains, 120/140 or so on the few straightest parts
* Simplon line probably 160 from Martigny to Brig
* NBS Bern-Olten 200
* AlpTransit lines design speed 250, maximum speed used in regular service 200 (but often lower)
* Bern-Lausanne hardly above 100

That's just what I can think of, I have no sources.


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## Suburbanist

^^ That is shockingly slow and yet again shows the importance of building new high-speeed lines in Switzerland.


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## Sunfuns

What's so shocking about slow speeds in the mountains? Have you ever taken a train over Gotthard pass? After spending many billions on the new tunnel this line will be much faster very soon, but unfortunately that's not possible for the entire network.


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## Coccodrillo

There are a lot of people who say "I want", but very few who say "I pay".


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## AlexNL

quimporte said:


> Coccodrillo, could I find somewhere, in an open-source document (book or internet), the speed limits on SBB’s network and specific sections?


This information should be available as part of SBB's Network Statement, a document that described nearly everything that operators need to know to run trains on rail infrastructure. Take a look at www.trasse.ch to see if you can find what you want to know.


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## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> What's so shocking about slow speeds in the mountains? Have you ever taken a train over Gotthard pass? After spending many billions on the new tunnel this line will be much faster very soon, but unfortunately that's not possible for the entire network.


I'm not referring to the Gotthard line (which I traveled just twice by train, cringing at the low speeds and wishing for the train to reach Italy fast) or the old Loetschberg route, but the "North of the Alps" chord (Geneve- Lausanne - Bern (- Basel) (- Luzern) - Zurich - St. Gallen - Chur. 

The mountains on that area are not much different than topography you find in parts of France, Spain or Germany that nonetheless have far faster (if much less frequent) rail service. Hilly, but not a 1.000m+ impenetrable ridge.


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## radamfi

I suppose the domestic distances in Switzerland are not particularly long. Zurich to Geneva takes about 2 and a half hours by train which is reasonably competitive with the car journey (which takes 2 hours 59 minutes according to Google Maps).

You could argue that the Glasgow to Lancaster part of the West Coast Main Line is quite a fast line through hilly country (generally 200 km/h) but it needs to be that quick because it still takes 4 hours from London to Glasgow, which means that air is still the dominant mode of transport on that route.


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## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> The mountains on that area are not much different than topography you find in parts of France, Spain or Germany that nonetheless have far faster (if much less frequent) rail service. Hilly, but not a 1.000m+ impenetrable ridge.


Is that really so excluding high speed lines?


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## steple

If you're really interested, you can buy the official and up-to-date document from the Union of Public Transports (VöV - UTP) for CHF 45:

http://www.rte.voev.ch/30/betrieb/r%20i-30131/D/Product/

For example Lausanne - Fribourg, which is considered as one of the slowest Intercity-lines, apart from the Gotthard:

(How to read: From Lausanne to La Conversion, the allowed top speed for an Intercity train is 110 km/h, from La Conversion to Puidoux 100 km/h, and so on) 

Lausanne 110
La Conversion 100
Puidoux-Chexbres 115
Palézieux 90
Oron 85
Vauderens 140
Siviriez 100
Romont 140
Villaz-St-Pierre 130
Chénens 115
Cottens 120
Neyruz 100
Rosé 105
Fribourg

The top speed is only on a short part lower than 100 km/h.


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## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> What is the time difference between Amsterdam and Brussels (Thalys) before and after the line was built? If it's really only 10-15 min then I agree with you something else could have been done instead.


A proper comparison is Schiphol-Antwerpend Centraal (the sector served by HSL and where old trains used to stop before).

Nowadays Thalys takes 56min
Before HSL, it took 119min

How can that be a disaster, I don't really know.


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## quimporte

K_ said:


> Actually we stopped doing it once we demonstrated we could...


The Americans stopped doing it. But some other countries are still working on it, like China. Nothing excludes that one day we will have an international space station on the Moon. And then you have the next step to Mars (USA, India, United Arab Emirates, etc.).



K_ said:


> In France the main mission of the SNCF is transporting people to/from Paris. The moment you try to use public transit to move around tangentially, or just around in one region SNCF downright sucks.
> The reason why SNCF is so Paris centric, is because in France Paris is basically all that matters.
> Switzerland however is more decentralised.


From that point of view, you’re right. But in a certain way, Switzerland has also focused a lot on Zurich. And times are changing in France, as SNCF will also develop transvers lines (e.g. Lyon-Strasbourg or Marseille-Bordeaux via Toulouse) in the future. So yes, France’s historical mistake was to abandon more or less, and for a certain time, the historical network. But each "Département" works on developping its own services, so that it would not be fair to talk about a complete disaster.



K_ said:


> See what happened in the Netherlands when they decided to mimic the French, and build dedicated high speed lines. I lived in the Netherlands during the time that the debate over the HSL Zuid was waged. The plans to build dedicated lines were heavily criticised, and it was repeatedly suggested that upgrading and quadrupling the existing Amsterdam - Antwerpen line, allowing speeds of 200 kph would be a much wiser investment.
> But the HSL Zuid was built nevertheless, and it's not a success.
> In 1983 I could travel Brugge - Rotterdam in 2:32. Now I can do it in 2:26. But at twice the price, and not as frequently. That is what billions of investment has brought us...
> I now live in Switzerland, and don't want money to be wasted in the same way.
> 
> 300 kph lines make sense in a country with a lot of empty space between the cities. But not in a country where the area between the cities is the main market the railway serves...


I’m not asking for a new high-speed line disconnected from the existing network. I’m not asking for an extra service that would be added to existing ones (IC, IR, RE, R). I’m just saying that it would nice to have a new high-speed transvers line that would be used by IC trains (and eventually IR), instead of using the extremely slow historical line. 200-250 km/h would be fine.

Bern-Lausanne is maybe the less-traveled section on the mainline, but the number of passengers is by no means insignificant. With that kind of thinking, we should immediately stop transporting people from Lausanne to Bern.

And can we really talk about a specifically Dutch high-speed line? I think it is more appropriate to talk about one section (HSL-Zuid) of the European high-speed network that start/end in Amsterdam in this case. This route has very few stops in the Netherland, so that it can’t be competitive for domestic travels? Am I wrong?


----------



## quimporte

alphorn said:


> Well, we were talking about his high speed rail proposal, not daily commuting. High speed rail only stops at very few stations so very many people have to get there by some other bus or train, which makes transfer times important.


Many commuters use IC trains to go to work. The new HSL would have more or less the same stops as the current IC routes, so that it wouldn’t change anything for the commuter traffic, from that point of view, with the current situation.



alphorn said:


> Actually the Swiss have given a very clear point of view: Rail 2000, without any real high speed, was acceptet by 57% of the voters in 1987. Before that, there was a plan to build a long high speed line (see here), but it was withdrawn when it became obvious that it would not have a chance in a vote.


No, this line makes up a small portion of the historical HSL project wich dates back to 1973. The idea at that time was to build a new line between Geneva and St.Gallen (and not only Bern and Zurich).

The project has been withdrawn because some SBB managers were extremely hostile to the project (not forgetting peasants, forest owners, environmentalists and some Swiss cantons that fought against it as well), prefering to put the accent on efficiency and capacity. This was perhaps the right solution in the sixties, but today high-speed is necessary on the main lines.


----------



## Nexis




----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> See what happened in the Netherlands when they decided to mimic the French, and build dedicated high speed lines. I lived in the Netherlands during the time that the debate over the HSL Zuid was waged. The plans to build dedicated lines were heavily criticised, and it was repeatedly suggested that upgrading and quadrupling the existing Amsterdam - Antwerpen line, allowing speeds of 200 kph would be a much wiser investment.
> But the HSL Zuid was built nevertheless, and it's not a success.


But then the Dutch have to ask themselves why their HSR plan is a failure,
while in Belgium, country of a similar size and population density, it is immensely successful.


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> But then the Dutch have to ask themselves why their HSR plan is a failure, while in Belgium, country of a similar size and population density, it is immensely successful.


I wouldn't call the Belgian HSL a big success either. Paris - Brussel is successful, but Brussel - Liege has made the IC service only marginally faster (at great cost), the line to Germany only sees a handfuls of trains and has no benefit for domestic travelers, and 5 years after the already heavily delayed opening of HSL Zuid we still haven't got an Antwerpen - Breda service...


----------



## quimporte

MarcVD said:


> But then the Dutch have to ask themselves why their HSR plan is a failure,
> while in Belgium, country of a similar size and population density, it is immensely successful.


In my view, HSL in Belgium and the Netherlands are just a part of the European high-speed network and should not be considered as national routes. For that reason, their commercial success is probably limited to the European corridors connecting major metropolises (Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam and Brussels-Cologne).

On the other hand, and contrary to the Netherlands, Belgium (9) has significantly more train stations that are integrated in the high-speed system than the Netherlands (4), which gives the inhabitants the benefit of a quasi-national network. That could probably explain a larger success of high-speed in Belgium than the Netherlands.

*Belgium:*
Antwerpen-Centraal
Brugge
Bruxelles-South
Charleroi-South
Gent
Liège-Guillemins
Mons
Namur
Ostend

*Netherlands:*
Amsterdam Centraal
Schiphol
Rotterdam Centraal
Breda


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> I wouldn't call the Belgian HSL a big success either. Paris - Brussel is successful, but Brussel - Liege has made the IC service only marginally faster (at great cost), the line to Germany only sees a handfuls of trains and has no benefit for domestic travelers, and 5 years after the already heavily delayed opening of HSL Zuid we still haven't got an Antwerpen - Breda service...


Brussels-Liège is very successful. It did not add much speed to the domestic
service, but added a lot of capacity. In addition to the high speed trains to 
Germany, there are now two hourly domestic services using it and a third one 
will start in December. That's twice the offer of before the high speed line.
On such a trip - less than 100 km - the speed of 200 km/h doesn't reduce
travel time very much, compared to the 140 km/h of the classic line. But the
additional capacity was needed, and building a HSL did cost less than boosting
the classic line from 2 to 4 tracks.

The line to Aachen has 9 trains per day each way. Not much, yes, but what was
the other choice ? The classic line was impossible to upgrade.

And regarding the line to the Netherlands, with how much now ? 12 thalys trains
per day, each way ? It would have been much better if we did not have had this
Fyra disgrace...


----------



## MarcVD

quimporte said:


> On the other hand, and contrary to the Netherlands, Belgium (9) has significantly more train stations that are integrated in the high-speed system than the Netherlands (4)


Don't exaggerate that effect, though. Brussels, Antwerp and Liège are very
well integrated indeed, but for the the other stations (Brugge, Charleroi, Gent,
Mons, Namur, Ostend) it's only 1 train per day each way, not very successful,
and that remain in place only because the are subsidised by the belgian régions
for political reasons. Otherwise they would have disappeared already.


----------



## quimporte

MarcVD said:


> Don't exaggerate that effect, though. Brussels, Antwerp and Liège are very
> well integrated indeed, but for the the other stations (Brugge, Charleroi, Gent,
> Mons, Namur, Ostend) it's only 1 train per day each way, not very successful,
> and that remain in place only because the are subsidised by the belgian régions
> for political reasons. Otherwise they would have disappeared already.


You mean, only 1 train of the TGV/ICE class (Thalys)?

But there’s certainly more domestic IC trains that eventually use high-speed lines through Brugge, Charleroi, Gent, Mons, Namur and Ostend. Or not even?


----------



## alphorn

MarcVD said:


> But then the Dutch have to ask themselves why their HSR plan is a failure,
> while in Belgium, country of a similar size and population density, it is immensely successful.


Well, is it? In the last five years, Belgium has been surpassed by both the UK and the Netherlands in terms of rail usage per inhabitant. I don't doubt there are many passengers on the high speed lines, but I suspect that if the amounts spent on the HSL had instead been spent on timetable optimization and commuter improvements, more traffic would have ended up on the railways.


----------



## K_

(double)


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> Brussels-Liège is very successful. It did not add much speed to the domestic
> service, but added a lot of capacity. In addition to the high speed trains to
> Germany, there are now two hourly domestic services using it and a third one
> will start in December. That's twice the offer of before the high speed line.
> On such a trip - less than 100 km - the speed of 200 km/h doesn't reduce
> travel time very much, compared to the 140 km/h of the classic line. But the
> additional capacity was needed, and building a HSL did cost less than boosting
> the classic line from 2 to 4 tracks.


The classical line didn't need quadrupling. You don't need 4 tracks for 3 ICs, an INT, an IR and 2 L trains per hour.

Als the money spend on HSLs could have been spend on improving suburban service around Brussel. I don't think there are many cities in Europe where PT from the suburbs to the city is so lacking as around Brussel.


----------



## K_

quimporte said:


> You mean, only 1 train of the TGV/ICE class (Thalys)?
> 
> But there’s certainly more domestic IC trains that eventually use high-speed lines through Brugge, Charleroi, Gent, Mons, Namur and Ostend. Or not even?


There is no high speed line to Brugge or Oostende, Namur, Charleroi or Mons. These single Thalys services use the conventional line.
In fact, outside of the HSLs all trip times in Belgium are slower now than in the past. On Brussel - Antwerpen trains are even slower than they were in the 1930ies...


----------



## MarcVD

quimporte said:


> You mean, only 1 train of the TGV/ICE class (Thalys)?
> 
> But there’s certainly more domestic IC trains that eventually use high-speed lines through Brugge, Charleroi, Gent, Mons, Namur and Ostend. Or not even?


There are no high speed lines between those stations. The two thalys train
pairs serving them use the classic lines. The train going from/to Mons, 
Charleroi & Namur leaves the high speed line from Paris at Antoing, and the
one from/to Gent, Brugge and Oostende reverses at Brussels South to take
the classic line.


----------



## MarcVD

alphorn said:


> Well, is it? In the last five years, Belgium has been surpassed by both the UK and the Netherlands in terms of rail usage per inhabitant. I don't doubt there are many passengers on the high speed lines, but I suspect that if the amounts spent on the HSL had instead been spent on timetable optimization and commuter improvements, more traffic would have ended up on the railways.


High speed lines between Paris, Brussels, and Liege have added capacity that
was needed anyway, and the alternative solution - adding more tracks to the
existing lines - would have been more expensive, while providing a less 
efficient solution. The real bottleneck for instating more traffic to/from 
Brussels is the capacity of the Brussels stations. With the current terminal
capacity, going beyond the ~ 1200 trains that serve the city each day is
going to be challenging. Note that there are not that many cities of 1M
inhabitants in Europe that get such a level of service...


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> Note that there are not that many cities of 1M
> inhabitants in Europe that get such a level of service...


I do know of a few cities with less than 1M inhabitants with that level of service though...


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> The classical line didn't need quadrupling. You don't need 4 tracks for 3 ICs, an INT, an IR and 2 L trains per hour.


Many more than that during the peak hours. And you forget all the traffic
going from/to Kempen (leaving the main line at Leuven or Landen) as well
as the foreseen RER traffic which is expected to reach 6 trains per hour. You
can hardly get all that through 2 tracks. You can compare the Brussels-Leuven 
interval to Geneve-Lausanne in Switzerland. 



K_ said:


> Als the money spend on HSLs could have been spend on improving suburban service around Brussel. I don't think there are many cities in Europe where PT from the suburbs to the city is so lacking as around Brussel.


Really ? could we make a comparison of the number of trains serving cities
of ~ 1M inhabitants in Europe ? I'm sure there are some that have more
than Brussels (~ 1200 trains per day) but I'm also sure there are many more
having much less...


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> Many more than that during the peak hours. And you forget all the traffic
> going from/to Kempen (leaving the main line at Leuven or Landen) as well
> as the foreseen RER traffic which is expected to reach 6 trains per hour. You
> can hardly get all that through 2 tracks.


But the HSL starts beyond Leuven. It does nothing to relieve Brussel - Leuven... 
I also never claimed that 4 tracking Brussel - Leuven was a bad idea. What I am saying however is that the money spend on HSL2, 3 and 4 could have been used in stead to increase speeds to 200 kph on quite a sizeable portion of the network, and four tracking everything near Brussels. 



> You can compare the Brussels-Leuven
> interval to Geneve-Lausanne in Switzerland.


Which is mostly two tracks, and carries freight as well last time I looked...



> Really ? could we make a comparison of the number of trains serving cities
> of ~ 1M inhabitants in Europe ? I'm sure there are some that have more
> than Brussels (~ 1200 trains per day) but I'm also sure there are many more
> having much less...


NMBS has a good market share in commuters that come from far away. But amongst people who commute from the closer suburbs it share is actually quite low. The fact remains that there are still quite a few suburban services that run only hourly, and some not at all during weekends. In my city (Bern) many suburban lines already run every 15 minutes. And we're talking about a town the size of Brugge.


----------



## Suburbanist

What has been decided about the re-routing of some Lyra TGV services, diverting them from the Jura route to Genève?


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> What I am saying however is that the money spend on HSL2, 3 and 4 could have been used in stead to increase speeds to 200 kph on quite a sizeable portion of the network, and four tracking everything near Brussels.


Being done as we speak. Done since 1935 all the way to Antwerp, done recently to Leven and Halle, and in Progress towards Gent, Charleroi and Namur. It won't solve a lot though, because the main bottleneck now is
the stations within Brussels.



K_ said:


> Which is mostly two tracks, and carries freight as well last time I looked...


And causing a lot of problems, and in the way of being 4-tracked too, as far as I know. We've just been a bit faster. :banana:



K_ said:


> NMBS has a good market share in commuters that come from far away. But amongst people who commute from the closer suburbs it share is actually quite low. The fact remains that there are still quite a few suburban services that run only hourly, and some not at all during weekends. In my city (Bern) many suburban lines already run every 15 minutes. And we're talking about a town the size of Brugge.


True. Not because of the railways but because urbanistic rules in Belgium 
allowed very dispersed housing (such as american suburbs, which have the
same problem) which cannot be served efficiently by public transport. Also
real estate in Brussels suburbs is extremely expensive so people living there
are not those who naturally use public transport. And despite reports saying
that Brussels is the most congested city of the western world, it is still 
relatively easy to come to work - and to park - with your own car. Unless 
that changes, cars will always retain a share of the modal split... So the train
offer in the immediate suburbs of Brussels is poor because there are no 
customers, not the other way around.


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> And causing a lot of problems, and in the way of being 4-tracked too, as far as I know. We've just been a bit faster. :banana:


Which problems?
Geneve - Lausanne operates with the same lack of drama as the rest of the Swiss network.
It is indeed gradually being expanded, true. But at least first some thought is poured in to what the infrastructure must do, in stead of first building, and then thinking...


----------



## quimporte

alphorn said:


> Well, is it? In the last five years, Belgium has been surpassed by both the UK and the Netherlands in terms of rail usage per inhabitant. I don't doubt there are many passengers on the high speed lines, but I suspect that if the amounts spent on the HSL had instead been spent on timetable optimization and commuter improvements, more traffic would have ended up on the railways.


I presume that high-speed programs are a part of the EU budget, and the costs for domestic services shall be borne by Belgium. So, there’s no reason for any competition between these two services.

It’s not high-speed vs. commuter networks. Both are neccessary. Why are you systematically hammering high-speed? Your sacrosanct clockface timetable certainely has a few advantages, but it makes us waste so much time with its dramatically low commercial speed!


----------



## K_

quimporte said:


> I presume that high-speed programs are a part of the EU budget, and the costs for domestic services shall be borne by Belgium. So, there’s no reason for any competition between these two services.


Your presumption is incorrect. The High Speed programs are payed for by the national governments.



> It’s not high-speed vs. commuter networks. Both are neccessary. Why are you systematically hammering high-speed? Your sacrosanct clockface timetable certainely has a few advantages, but it makes us waste so much time with its dramatically low commercial speed!


Resources are limited. An efficient timetable allows efficent use of those resources. The end result of the clock face timetable in Switzerland is that the value of the transportation network is increased for the passengers.
What matters is not how fast the trains are. What matters is how many destinations can I reach within my time budget. In places with high population densities you don't need high speeds for that.


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> In places with high population densities you don't need high speeds for that.


Not entirely true. If there are urban centers large enough to generate a 
sufficient volume of travel demand between them, then a high-speed network
can be beneficial. This is what happened between Paris, Brussels, London,
Köln, and Amsterdam. None of the things you propose would have made
possible a journey time of 1h30 between Paris and Brussels.


----------



## Sunfuns

K_ said:


> *What matters is not how fast the trains are.* What matters is how many destinations can I reach within my time budget. In places with high population densities you don't need high speeds for that.


You are repeating it over and over, but the world is not black and white. Just to give an example currently non-stop Basel-Zurich service (twice an hour) takes 54 min. If it took 30 min instead due to faster trains it would be a major improvement to most of those taking this train. I'd be willing to bet that 2/3 or more do not take another train in Zurich or Basel and thus are not so concerned with very short connection times. 

Now of course if there was a real proposal for a new line we could discuss whether the alignment is the best and is the price appropriate for the advantage gained, but there is none so all we are discussing is a general idea and the idea is a good one.


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> Not entirely true. If there are urban centers large enough to generate a
> sufficient volume of travel demand between them, then a high-speed network
> can be beneficial. This is what happened between Paris, Brussels, London,
> Köln, and Amsterdam. None of the things you propose would have made
> possible a journey time of 1h30 between Paris and Brussels.


The Paris - Brussel line made sense, although it did reduce travel options (and increased time) for those places that were once on the old connection. If you try to get from Mons to Compiegne now...

When the new Bahn 2000 timetable was introduced the SBB published a matrix, that showed for each major city pair how travel times would improve under the new timetable. The whole project was intended to make travel faster for everyone, not just for a few city pairs. And is getting faster to Paris really that much more important then getting more commuters from the suburbs to switch to public transit?

It's quite telling that despite all those fast TGVs in France the most convenient (and best value) route for me to get from Switzerland to Belgium is usually via Germany.


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> The Paris - Brussel line made sense, although it did reduce travel options (and increased time) for those places that were once on the old connection. If you try to get from Mons to Compiegne now...


I don't know why are you so obsessed with minor relations in the grand scheme of things. 

Your analysis doesn't make much sense if you don't weigh the travel times on a matrix of O/D relations by the potential travel demand involved.

I don't have numbers, but I'd bet that the total number of passenger-km travelling on the Paris-Bruxelles axis is much higher now, even if some relations had service completely degraded to the point using trains is no longer a reasonable option. 

So there is the thing: would more efforts by SBB be put on creating direct fast train links between Genève, Bern, Basel and Zürich attract more demand to these trains (including new non-daily commutes made viable by a 75min Geneve-Zürich train service, for instance) than the eventual loss of some passengers travelling between Estavayer-le-Lac and Aarau?

If you extend this logic of reaching the maximum number of destinations on the fastest scalar sum, you'd end up with an optimized metro system more apt for situations where travel demand is relatively evenly split between stations, which is not the case on a national rail system. Conversely, if you want to just minimize total sum of travel time from a given station, the best way to mathematically achieve that is just to close the higher possible number of stations in the system!


----------



## quimporte

K_ said:


> Your presumption is incorrect. The High Speed programs are payed for by the national governments.


According to Wikipedia:



> In 2007, a consortium of European railway operators, Railteam, emerged to co-ordinate and boost cross-border high-speed rail travel. *Developing a Trans-European high-speed rail network is a stated goal of the European Union, and most cross-border railway lines receive EU funding.* Several countries — France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Austria, Sweden, Belgium, the Netherlands, Russia and the United Kingdom — are connected to a cross-border high-speed railway network. More are expected to be connected in the coming years as *Europe invests heavily in tunnels, bridges and other infrastructure and development projects across the continent,* many of which are under construction now.


----------



## K_

quimporte said:


> According to Wikipedia:
> In 2007, a consortium of European railway operators, Railteam, emerged to co-ordinate and boost cross-border high-speed rail travel. Developing a Trans-European high-speed rail network is a stated goal of the European Union, and most cross-border railway lines receive EU funding. Several countries — France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Austria, Sweden, Belgium, the Netherlands, Russia and the United Kingdom — are connected to a cross-border high-speed railway network. More are expected to be connected in the coming years as Europe invests heavily in tunnels, bridges and other infrastructure and development projects across the continent, many of which are under construction now.


And now the facts:

- Rail Team is something like the alliances you see in the airline sector. I don't hear much about it anymore though.
- Europe isn't investing heavily, some of the countries that make up Europe are however. And there are in fact not that many cross border high speed lines. There are only 3 at the moment, and one of them only carries a pittance of high speed trains... There are no cross border high speed lines under construction right now that I am aware of.


----------



## Sunfuns

Only three? France-Spain near Barcelona, the tunnel between France and England, Paris-Brussels line. No cross border sections between Belgium and Netherlands? There is also a real HS traffic between France and Germany even if not 100% on dedicated lines.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> I don't know why are you so obsessed with minor relations in the grand scheme of things.


I'm not "obsessed with minor relations". I'm obsessed with getting value for money as a tax payer.
And so should everyone. 



> Your analysis doesn't make much sense if you don't weigh the travel times on a matrix of O/D relations by the potential travel demand involved.


The highest demand is for local traffic. The average train trip length in Switzerland is 42 km. 



> I don't have numbers, but I'd bet that the total number of passenger-km travelling on the Paris-Bruxelles axis is much higher now, even if some relations had service completely degraded to the point using trains is no longer a reasonable option.


It is much higher now, but increasing traffic in itself should not be the goal. 



> So there is the thing: would more efforts by SBB be put on creating direct fast train links between Genève, Bern, Basel and Zürich attract more demand to these trains (including new non-daily commutes made viable by a 75min Geneve-Zürich train service, for instance) than the eventual loss of some passengers travelling between Estavayer-le-Lac and Aarau?


The fact that one can as easily get from Estavayer-le-Lac to Aarau as from Zürich to Geneve as a major factor in the allowing the SBB to sell 460000 GA's a year. And these form a major source of revenue.
The aim of the SBB is to offer a nation wide mass transit network, that an replace ownership of a car for a large number of people. This allows SBB to charge more, and make more money. I quite appreciated the fact that I can as easily get from Basel to Payerne as from Bern to Basel yesterday...

Increasing the value of a product should be something someone like you who appears to be in favor of capitalism ought to approve off. Or are you only in favor of capitalism when the results are what you want?



> If you extend this logic of reaching the maximum number of destinations on the fastest scalar sum, you'd end up with an optimized metro system more apt for situations where travel demand is relatively evenly split between stations, which is not the case on a national rail system.


It is actually pretty much the case for most of the Swiss railway system, (and even more for the Dutch system) that it indeed aims to be a sort of nationwide metro, optimized for traffic that is indeed distributed over the whole network. If you would stay on a Geneva - St. Gallen train for the whole trip, and observe the passengers you would notice that the majority of them only travel as far as the next stop... There are a lot of people getting on and off at every stop. It's not like for example taking a train to Paris which fills up on the way in, and empties out on the way out...

One reason why the SBB wants to serve secondary places better is that the railways already pretty much own the market for commuting to/from the major places. If they want to grow they need to tap more in the market of tangential and regional traffic, like from one suburb to another. It's a way of increasing revenue at relatively low cost.


----------



## K_

Sunfuns said:


> Only three? France-Spain near Barcelona, the tunnel between France and England, Paris-Brussels line. No cross border sections between Belgium and Netherlands? There is also a real HS traffic between France and Germany even if not 100% on dedicated lines.


I'm talking here about high speed lines, not high speed services. There are as far as I know only three places where trains cross a border at speeds above 200 kph.


----------



## rower2000

Suburbanist said:


> I don't know why are you so obsessed with minor relations in the grand scheme of things.


Because the Swiss population is comparably evenly distributed in the inhabited areas. If you look at Eastern Austria for instance, you have big population centers in Vienna, Graz, Linz, and Salzburg, with some smaller centers in between like St. Pölten, Wiener Neustadt, Bruck/Mur, Amstetten, Wels. In such a setup it makes very much sense to build a high speed line between the nodes and create the local timetables around the hub cities accordingly. Furthermore, the small-to-large-bound traffic and vice-versa domiates the traffic pattern.

In Switzerland, you do not have those dominant cities, the companies providing work are spread out much more as is the population in medium sized communities. In such a setup, suddenly relations like Schaffhausen - Lenzburg or Weinfelden - Luzern have significant importance to the average citizen, but none of those city pairs justify the construction of a high speed line between them. Here an integrated timetable shows its strength: by creating nodes in the rail network through infrastructure improvements, those significant city pairs get reduced travel time without any high speed line in between them! And for that effect, the as-fast-as-necessary philosophy is the most cost-effective philosophy you can get.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Some "netzgraph" timetables (I don't know the English word for them) planned for 2025: http://www.bav.admin.ch/fabi/04579/index.html?lang=it (first PDF file on the right)


----------



## quimporte

Coccodrillo said:


> Some "netzgraph" timetables (I don't know the English word for them) planned for 2025: http://www.bav.admin.ch/fabi/04579/index.html?lang=it (first PDF file on the right)


network graphs


----------



## Suburbanist

rower2000 said:


> In Switzerland, you do not have those dominant cities, the companies providing work are spread out much more as is the population in medium sized communities. In such a setup, suddenly relations like Schaffhausen - Lenzburg or Weinfelden - Luzern have significant importance to the average citizen, but none of those city pairs justify the construction of a high speed line between them. Here an integrated timetable shows its strength: by creating nodes in the rail network through infrastructure improvements, those significant city pairs get reduced travel time without any high speed line in between them! And for that effect, the as-fast-as-necessary philosophy is the most cost-effective philosophy you can get.


But a Geneve-Bern-Zurich and Bern-Basel T-shaped system would allow Geneve, Lausanne and everything in between to be withing reasonable distance for 3x/week commuters to/from Zurich or Basel, something that is difficult to achieve today.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> But a Geneve-Bern-Zurich and Bern-Basel T-shaped system would allow Geneve, Lausanne and everything in between to be withing reasonable distance for 3x/week commuters to/from Zurich or Basel, something that is difficult to achieve today.


So would giving everyone a helicopter....

The question always is: do the benefits outweigh the cost? It's a lot more efficient to distribute economic activity. If you're from Geneva and take up a job with the Swiss Government you won't commute to Bern. You'll probably commute to Lausanne...


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> The Paris - Brussel line made sense, although it did reduce travel options (and increased time) for those places that were once on the old connection. If you try to get from Mons to Compiegne now...


K, I agree with you that with the kind of population and job distribution that
you have in Switzerland, the way the rail network is organized is optimal. The
facts prove it, in fact, if it was not optimal there would not be so much
widespread usage of it. 

But what I don't agree with, is your obsession to port the solutions that work
well for Switzerland everywhere else, assuming that they would be optimal
there too. It is far from being the case.

Notably, for this Mons to Compiègne example, the demand is so low that this
is a market that is best left to the car and totally ignored by the railways. Rail
is a mass transport system that has so high fixed costs that it can only be
efficient for high volumes. The money to spend to allow an efficient (that is,
fast enough to convince people not to take their car) relation between those
two cities would not be money well spent. The same money spent to enhance
relations between larger cities will produce a much better return on 
investment.

All this boils down to a fundamental question : railways, when people did not
have cars, tended to be a "universal" service", supposed to bring the
advantages of fast transportation to anyone in the country. This is still
the case today for other services such as post distribution, electricity supply,
fixed phone lines, and so on. But today the situation has changed - both
technology and social habits. So, should we still spend money on maintaining 
such universal services everywhere in the country, or should this money be
only used where it generates enough return ? I don't believe every country
answered this question the same way... And here in Belgium - and I suppose
in other countries too - the same question starts to be asked about the other
"universal" services that cost a fortune to fund in non-urban areas.


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> But what I don't agree with, is your obsession to port the solutions that work
> well for Switzerland everywhere else, assuming that they would be optimal
> there too. It is far from being the case.


I'm not obsessed with exporting Swiss solutions everywhere. I am debating the (un) wisdom of importing French solutions in to Switzerland. And I am using the mixed experiences when Belgium and the Netherlands imported French solutions as an example.


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## Sunfuns

Swiss train system is obviously very good, anyone who has lived in Switzerland for any length of time will agree with this. That doesn't mean however that it's so perfect that it can't be improved further. That includes making some key routes faster, increasing capacity here and there, improving connections to neighbouring countries (should be one of priorities for Basel area where I live) and so on.

In addition to good scheduling and efficient operations there is perhaps a more important historical reason why trains have a higher share of passengers here than elsewhere in Europe. Switzerland didn't start building railways super early, but when it was started a very dense network was built before cars emerged as a viable mass transportation option. Some other countries had that too, but proceeded to close large number of those lines in 50-ties and 60-ties (low point of railway popularity). Switzerland never did. Just look at all the lines we have here. More than half would never ever be built today.


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## Sunfuns

Another feature that helps a lot is a nationwide feeder bus system (PostBus). My commute to work for example is 20 min by train plus 5 min by bus. If the bus didn't exist maybe I'd cycle or maybe I'd drive instead…


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## K_

Sunfuns said:


> Swiss train system is obviously very good, anyone who has lived in Switzerland for any length of time will agree with this. That doesn't mean however that it's so perfect that it can't be improved further. That includes making some key routes faster, increasing capacity here and there, improving connections to neighbouring countries (should be one of priorities for Basel area where I live) and so on.


Of course it can be improved. And it is continuously being improved. However resources are limited, and when the government spends the peoples' money it should do so wisely.

But capacity is more important then speed. The speed of the system as a whole is already such that it can compete with the car in large parts of the country. Reducing Bern - Basel by a few minutes might not get that many more passengers on that route. But increasing tph from 2 to 4 certainly will.
Building a new line from Bern to Lausanne therefore shouldn't carry as high a priority as improving Geneve - Lausanne, and Basel - Olten (I'm on that route daily...)





> Some other countries had that too, but proceeded to close large number of those lines in 50-ties and 60-ties (low point of railway popularity). Switzerland never did. Just look at all the lines we have here. More than half would never ever be built today.


One of the reasons why Switzerland still has most of it's railways operational is that it never entered WW II. In Germany for example a lot of the WW II damage to the network was just never repaired...
Another reason is geography. This forces transportation patterns to be linear.
If you live in a mountain valley there are only two directions you can travel in efficiently anyway, regardless of your chosen mode. So the advantages of private transport are diminished.


----------



## K_

Sunfuns said:


> Another feature that helps a lot is a nationwide feeder bus system (PostBus). My commute to work for example is 20 min by train plus 5 min by bus. If the bus didn't exist maybe I'd cycle or maybe I'd drive instead…


And especially that it functions as one system. I assume you just have one pass, that covers all modes, and that it hardly leaves your wallet...


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## Sunfuns

K_ said:


> Of course it can be improved. And it is continuously being improved. However resources are limited, and when the government spends the peoples' money it should do so wisely.
> 
> But capacity is more important then speed. The speed of the system as a whole is already such that it can compete with the car in large parts of the country. Reducing Bern - Basel by a few minutes might not get that many more passengers on that route. But increasing tph from 2 to 4 certainly will.
> Building a new line from Bern to Lausanne therefore shouldn't carry as high a priority as improving Geneve - Lausanne, and Basel - Olten (I'm on that route daily...)


I think most people here will agree that a faster Bern-Lausanne line would be cool to have but not really something the government should spend billions on. My dreaming of an entirely new Basel-Zurich line was a bit more realistic, but still not from a reality land. In my opinion increases in speed and capacity should go hand in hand for the most heavily used sections of the railway. There are three sections currently where a new line (preferably 200-250 km/h all the way) would be economically warranted: Geneva-Lausanne (1st priority), Zurich-Olten (to join Olten-Bern 200 km/h line) and Olten-Basel. Capacity would be doubled and speeds increased at the same time!



K_ said:


> One of the reasons why Switzerland still has most of it's railways operational is that it never entered WW II. In Germany for example a lot of the WW II damage to the network was just never repaired...


Right, but that's not all of it. A huge number of functioning lines were closed in UK in the 60-ties.


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## Sunfuns

K_ said:


> And especially that it functions as one system. I assume you just have one pass, that covers all modes, and that it hardly leaves your wallet...


Exactly and it's even cheap by Swiss standards (730 chf/year). My French co-workers driving in from France pay 3-4 times as much in gas alone.


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## K_

Sunfuns said:


> ... Olten-Basel. Capacity would be doubled and speeds increased at the same time!


One idee I've seen suggested is to build a new, fully underground freight line from Basel to connect with the Gotthard railway just south of Brugg. The thinking is that underground freight only line could be build cheaper, as you'd only have to dig one bore, and wouldn't need so many safety systems. And it would get a lot of freight away from population centres...
Remove freight from the existing Basel - Olten and Basel - Brugg lines and you free up a lot of capacity for more and faster passenger trains.


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## Sunfuns

K_ said:


> One idee I've seen suggested is to build a new, fully underground freight line from Basel to connect with the Gotthard railway just south of Brugg. The thinking is that underground freight only line could be build cheaper, as you'd only have to dig one bore, *and wouldn't need so many safety systems.* And it would get a lot of freight away from population centres...
> Remove freight from the existing Basel - Olten and Basel - Brugg lines and you free up a lot of capacity for more and faster passenger trains.


That would be one long tunnel and I'm not sure about safety systems being easier. Imagine a crash of a train in a tunnel full with liquid chlorine. 

By the way do you know what is the dominant route within Switzerland for freight going from Germany to Italy via Gotthard route? There are several alternatives...


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## quimporte

Sunfuns said:


> That would be one long tunnel and I'm not sure about safety systems being easier. Imagine a crash of a train in a tunnel full with liquid chlorine.
> 
> By the way do you know what is the dominant route within Switzerland for freight going from Germany to Italy via Gotthard route? There are several alternatives...


According to that map, the Basel-Chiasso rail route is by far the most used to go from Germany to Italy, and vice versa. Basel is also the point of access for the much less used Lötschberg route.


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## Sunfuns

quimporte said:


> According to that map, the Basel-Chiasso rail route is by far the most used to go from Germany to Italy, and vice versa. Basel is also the point of access for the much less used Lötschberg route.


Thanks for the map. I knew that Basel-Chiasso route is dominant. What I didn't know for sure, but suspected is that majority of that freight ends up on Basel-Brugg-Zurich stretch instead of Basel-Olten-Luzern route favoured by passenger trains or Basel-Aarau-Zurich (fastest Basel-Zurich option).


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## quimporte

rower2000 said:


> Also because it's right across the language border. Most of the traffic in the triangle Bern-Basel-Zürich is in fact commuter and work-related traffic. An Swiss commuter profiles, in general, tend to stay within their own language region. Thus, work and commuter traffic between Bern and Zürich is much higher than between Bern and Lausanne.


Your vision is very self-absorbed. You’re right if you consider your own experience as a commuter as absolute. But you probably know that a day lasts 24 hours, and a week 7 days including week-ends. Switzerland also counts approx. 8 million inhabitants and welcomes thousands of tourists through the year. So, different passenger categories display different types of behaviours when they use a train, forever without ever crossing.

In my 3 years experience as a commuter from Geneva to Bern (fridays after work), the trains were full to capacity (commuters, tourists and militaries) along the entire journey. The same on my travel back to Geneva on sundays by 6 p.m. (commuters, tourists and au-pair), which contradicts the statement that the Bern-Lausanne doesn’t help (as a part of national high-speed transverse line).

Building two high-speed sections from Geneva to Lausanne, and from Bern to St. Gallen – as several people on that thread would seemingly priviledge – without connecting them would be absolutely counterproductive.


----------



## quimporte

Sunfuns said:


> Thanks for the map. I knew that Basel-Chiasso route is dominant. What I didn't know for sure, but suspected is that majority of that freight ends up on Basel-Brugg-Zurich stretch instead of Basel-Olten-Luzern route favoured by passenger trains or Basel-Aarau-Zurich (fastest Basel-Zurich option).


Try that one: http://map.geo.admin.ch/?X=183563.6...02&layers=ch.are.belastung-gueterverkehr-bahn

You may want to check all the layers. It’s a wonderful website, I tell you.


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## Coccodrillo

quimporte said:


> According to that map, the Basel-Chiasso rail route is by far the most used to go from Germany to Italy, and vice versa. Basel is also the point of access for the much less used Lötschberg route.


The Gotthard rail tunnel is crossed by about 15 millions net tonnes a year, compared to 10 Mt for the Simplon, so the difference is not that big. After Bellinzona, is roughly 1/3 to Luino and 2/3 to Chiasso.



Sunfuns said:


> Thanks for the map. I knew that Basel-Chiasso route is dominant. What I didn't know for sure, but suspected is that majority of that freight ends up on Basel-Brugg-Zurich stretch instead of Basel-Olten-Luzern route favoured by passenger trains or Basel-Aarau-Zurich (fastest Basel-Zurich option).


Gotthard freight mostly run via Frick (Bözbergbahn) and Muri (Südbahn). The route via Luzern require a reversal and is clogged up by passenegr trains, while via Zürich there is not that much space left. The Frick-Muri route is ideal, as skipping big cities it has few passenger trains.



quimporte said:


> In my 3 years experience as a commuter from Geneva to Bern (fridays after work), the trains were full to capacity (commuters, tourists and militaries) along the entire journey. The same on my travel back to Geneva on sundays by 6 p.m. (commuters, tourists and au-pair), which contradicts the statement that the Bern-Lausanne doesn’t help (as a part of national high-speed transverse line).


You can't design a transport infrastructure by dimensioning it on the traffic it has during a few hours twice a week.


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## Coccodrillo

(double post)


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## quimporte

Coccodrillo said:


> The Gotthard rail tunnel is crossed by about 15 millions net tonnes a year, compared to 10 Mt for the Simplon, so the difference is not that big. After Bellinzona, is roughly 1/3 to Luino and 2/3 to Chiasso.


That’s a point of view. If Gotthard tunnel swallows +50% freight than Simplon, I call that a big difference.



Coccodrillo said:


> You can't design a transport infrastructure by dimensioning it on the traffic it has during a few hours twice a week.


Oh really? Did you read my message properly? I guess not. Then, you already should have reacted to rower2000 arguments, pretending that his sole experience would justify the sacrifice of the Lausanne-Bern section.

I just expressed an opposite experience that shows that the trains on this section may be full to capacity the same.


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## K_

Sunfuns said:


> That would be one long tunnel and I'm not sure about safety systems being easier. Imagine a crash of a train in a tunnel full with liquid chlorine.


It would be less a problem than a crash with a train full of chlorine in the middle of Brugg...

The security measures implemented in modern tunnels are all geared towards saving the passengers. That is why you have two bores, why you have interconnections, why the interconnections have fire resistant doors, positive air pressure etc...
All to get the people out of harms way as quick as possible
Things change a lot when you can assume that whenever something happens the only people at risk are a small group of able adults that got a safety training.
I've traveled on freight ships, and on passenger ships, and the different way they deal with safety is striking. On a passenger ship they'll have smoke extraction systems, on a freighter they'll just put little boxes with emergency breathing devices everywhere, and train everyone on how to use this.
So for a freight only tunnel you could probably do away with needing two bores. A single, wide bore would be sufficient. You wouldn't need as many evacuation routes. In stead you could require train drivers to receive basic safety training, and equip the locomotives with emergency oxygen for example.

It might be worth looking in to this.



> By the way do you know what is the dominant route within Switzerland for freight going from Germany to Italy via Gotthard route? There are several alternatives...


To Brugg, and then down to Othmarsingen, Rotkreuz. Othmarsingen is probably one of the best places in Switzerland to go train spotting.


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## K_

quimporte said:


> In my 3 years experience as a commuter from Geneva to Bern (fridays after work), the trains were full to capacity (commuters, tourists and militaries) along the entire journey. The same on my travel back to Geneva on sundays by 6 p.m. (commuters, tourists and au-pair), which contradicts the statement that the Bern-Lausanne doesn’t help (as a part of national high-speed transverse line).


Actually it confirms what I and others have been telling here: Increasing capacity is more important then increasing speed.
If the trains are full this means that they are fast enough. If they're running at capacity we need more trains first.



> Building two high-speed sections from Geneva to Lausanne, and from Bern to St. Gallen – as several people on that thread would seemingly priviledge – without connecting them would be absolutely counterproductive.


You keep missing the point.
I'm not against a new line from Bern to Lausanne. Nobody is. But again a new line from Geneve to st. Gallen would be:

1) A new line from Geneve to Lausanne
2) A new line from Lausanne to Bern.
3) A new line from Rothrist to Zürich (Bern - Rothrist already exists).
4) A new line from Zürich to Winterthur.
5) A new line from Winterthur to st. Gallen.

Now, I want you to ask the following question: You are allowed to pick one of the above 5 sectors, and we will built it. Which sector do you pick?


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## quimporte

K_ said:


> Actually it confirms what I and others have been telling here: Increasing capacity is more important then increasing speed.
> If the trains are full this means that they are fast enough. If they're running at capacity we need more trains first.


Your conclusions are quite funny. The fact that YOU decided that capacity is more important than increasing speed doesn’t mean that it is. And if the trains are full to capacity, it just means that the trains are full to capacity, and not that they are fast enough. :lol:




K_ said:


> You keep missing the point.


blablabla… But YOU got it, of course… hno: You’re so pedantic…




K_ said:


> Now, I want you to ask the following question: You are allowed to pick one of the above 5 sectors, and we will built it. Which sector do you pick?


I would take them all. That’s crazy… Why should I a pick only one??? I’m talking about something global, when you’re playing petty politics. It’s an absolute nonsense to partition that national high-speed transverse route.


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## MarcVD

quimporte said:


> Your conclusions are quite funny.


Actually not. If the network is exploited almost at its maximum capacity, and
trains are full, it means that customers are happy enough with the service so
there is no reason to make it any faster. That's the application of the Lean
principle used in the industry : don't overdo things, don't over-deliver. If you
can sell all your capacity with the current service level, why enhance it ?

On the other hand, if trains are full, it might mean that there could be more
capacity sold if it existed. Hence I agree with the conclusion of K : in this
case, capacity is more needed than speed...


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## XAN_

MarcVD said:


> Actually not. If the network is exploited almost at its maximum capacity, and
> trains are full, it means that customers are happy enough with the service so
> there is no reason to make it any faster. That's the application of the Lean
> principle used in the industry : don't overdo things, don't over-deliver. If you
> can sell all your capacity with the current service level, why enhance it ?
> 
> On the other hand, if trains are full, it might mean that there could be more
> capacity sold if it existed. Hence I agree with the conclusion of K : in this
> case, capacity is more needed than speed...


You are quite right, but sometimes building new railway line with better speeds may be only incrementally more expansive, than quadriple-tracking the existing one. So its a tricky question - sometimes you can have both for a reasonable price.


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## Coccodrillo

All mountain railways (except the new AlpTransit tunnels) have been built before WW1, by private investors and partially nearby nations. For instance, the Gotthard railway was partly privately financed (the Credit Suisse bank was founded specifically to fund the Gotthard raiwlay), and partly by Switzerland, Germany and Italy.

So at the time of their construction there weren't competitors and railways took all traffic, as the only alternatives were boats (but obviously not across mountains, only on seas, lakes and canals), horse drawn carriages and...walking. As Swiss lakes were and are not connected by navigable canals (except a few short links) railways had no real competitors.

Many mountain railways built only (or nearly only) for touristic purposes were also private.

Modern railways are financed by taxes (all of these taxes approved by citizens in referendums).

Note that nearly all railways today in use (even those with heavy traffic) in the Alps, and most of those in North America, were built before WW1 - so to have efficient railways you don't need necessarily new lines, but just keep using the existing ones. Although most rail network in South America are isolated from each other, there are a few across the Andes - do you have a map showing them?


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=493240&nseq=195
Georg Trüb, August 09, 2014
_Spectacular view almost vertical down in the canyon of the Zügen gorge. Between the 450 m long Wiesen I tunnel and the 969 m long Bärentritt tunnel on the line from Filisur to Davos, there is a gap of only few more than 10 meters, where the passengers have a glimpse of less than 1 second daylight, when the train crosses the bridge over the creek, which falls down to the Zügen gorge. "Allegra" ABe 8/12 # 3507 is crossing the bridge._


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## Suburbanist

We must also remember precarious working conditions and death of many workers were considered acceptable price of doing business of big infrastructure projects.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

Coccodrillo said:


> ProSurf has been discontinued last December. Maybe because it was technically old, although scandalmongers would say it was done purposefully to better hide delays (ProSurf was the base for Cessoalpino (toilet-alpino, sounding similar to Cisalpino), a website that gathered statistics of SBB's Cisalpino trains).
> 
> [...]


^^
They have a nice logo on their website:








:rofl:


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## Suburbanist

Cisalpino sadly failed, first and foremost, because of lack of independence of infrastructure and rail operations in both Italy and Switzerland at the time. I'm not sure problems have been completely tackled since.


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## StuZealand

Suburbanist said:


> We must also remember precarious working conditions and death of many workers were considered acceptable price of doing business of big infrastructure projects.


That's how it was 100+ years ago. For example, 20,000 workers died of disease during the construction of the Panama Canal. hno:

Compare that to the AlpTransit tunnels where eight workers have died.


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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Cisalpino sadly failed, first and foremost, because of lack of independence of infrastructure and rail operations in both Italy and Switzerland at the time. I'm not sure problems have been completely tackled since.


You know absolutely nothing about railways, especially about timetabling and Cisalpino's history, so shut up.


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## Vaud

I think many of the current railway lines present in Switzerland wouldn't exist if they had to be built nowadays.

Apart from the fact that, as Coccodrilo rightly pointed out, railways at the time had no real competition, the construction standards are also very different.

For instance, the railway line connecting Lausanne to Vevey/Montreux runs for some stretches right along Lake Geneva, in practise impeding the access to the lake shore for the most part. At the time it might have seemed a good idea, but today with current environmental laws and all the _recours_ (I don't know the term in english; maybe "appeals"?) filled by particulars/associations, it wouldn't have been built. Instead, a tunnel under Lavaux or some other expensive solution would've had to be found as an alternative.


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## Sunfuns

Vaud said:


> I think many of the current railway lines present in Switzerland wouldn't exist if they had to be built nowadays.
> 
> Apart from the fact that, as Coccodrilo rightly pointed out, railways at the time had no real competition, the construction standards are also very different.
> 
> For instance, the railway line connecting Lausanne to Vevey/Montreux runs for some stretches right along Lake Geneva, in practise impeding the access to the lake shore for the most part. At the time it might have seemed a good idea, but today with current environmental laws and all the _recours_ (I don't know the term in english; maybe "appeals"?) filled by particulars/associations, it wouldn't have been built. Instead, a tunnel under Lavaux or some other expensive solution would've had to be found as an alternative.


At least one half if not 2/3 of Swiss rail network would not be built from scratch today. That, however, is to one extent or another true in other countries as well.


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## Coccodrillo

Many railways were built were it was cheaper at the time (not only because of the orography, but also following economic value - for instance, in the XIX century beaches were less important than fields in some today's sea resorts).

Another example similar to the one along Lake Geneva is the coastal railway Nice-Genoa. It was built along at the time not so interesting beaches, but today many parts of it have been put underground to free up the waterfront.

Many railways would not be built now, but that's true also for roads. For instance, many of the existing pass roads in the Alps today would not be built, or would be bypassed by tunnels instead. However, there aren't many cases of road tunnels which doesn't replace a road (the Mont Blanc, the Munt la Schera, and...that's all, except some tunnels whose "original roads" are slightly apart: Tauern, Karawanken, Gleinalm, Fréjus).

On the other side, some railways and tramways closed in the 1960s-1970s wouldn't likely be closed now.

By the way, yes, _recours_ is _appeals_.


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## Suburbanist

Would Switzerland consider paying for most of the cost of improvin and twinning the railway through France on the southern bank of Lac Leman, and reconstruction of the Evian-les-Bains - St Gildoph sector? That would reduce transit times between Valais and Geneve.


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## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> On the other side, some railways and tramways closed in the 1960s-1970s wouldn't likely be closed now.


That's where conservatism of Swiss politics had a positive effect. They were slow to close down "outdated" transport systems until they were not considered outdated anymore.


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## Vaud

Sunfuns said:


> That's where conservatism of Swiss politics had a positive effect. They were slow to close down "outdated" transport systems until they were not considered outdated anymore.


Except in Geneva and Lausanne hno:



Suburbanist said:


> Would Switzerland consider paying for most of the cost of improvin and twinning the railway through France on the southern bank of Lac Leman, and reconstruction of the Evian-les-Bains - St Gildoph sector? That would reduce transit times between Valais and Geneve.


Didn't you ask the same thing not long ago in this same thread? I remember answering this same question already.


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## Suburbanist

I asked about SNCF servicing the line and running trains to Martigny, which you said wasn't interesting.


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## MarcVD

Coccodrillo said:


> Another example similar to the one along Lake Geneva is the coastal railway Nice-Genoa. It was built along at the time not so interesting beaches, but today many parts of it have been put underground to free up the waterfront.


I think the main objective of this project is not to free up the waterfront - 
even if it is a nice-to-have side effect - but to move the railway to a place
where it is possible to double-track it.


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## Coccodrillo

The local communities don't like all the level crossings inside the towns, but don't care that much about train service. The last train from Ventimiglia towards Genova (of any type) is an all-station train at 19.20 in the evening. There is rarely more than one train per hour per direction. If the objective was to improve rail service, they would add trains and redesign the timetable on the existing line, not just building a new line with 60% less stations than before.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> I asked about SNCF servicing the line and running trains to Martigny, which you said wasn't interesting.


The line is not interesting as a connection from Geneva to Martigny. It might be interesting to reactivate it and integrate it in the Geneva regional network. ie, improve access to the southern lake shore from Geneva, and link it better with Valais. For that it is not a problem that the line is single track.
However, for a fast, non stop IC type service from Geneva to Martigny and beyond, via a different route there is not enough demand.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=504576&nseq=6
Georg Trüb, October 30, 2014
_"Flirt" trainset RABe 523 # 028, built by Stadler Rail, on the S4 from Palézieux to Allaman in Bossière._


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## Suburbanist

^^ Is that an actual station platform :crazy:?


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## Nexis




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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=505329&nseq=33
Georg Trüb, October 30, 2014
_"Flirt" trainset RABe 523 022 running as S4 to Allaman through the vineyards above Lake Geneva. This is one of the most wonderful railway lines in Switzerland._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=505909&nseq=27
Georg Trüb, November 09, 2014
_On the world's steepest cogwheel railway from Alpnachstad to Pilatus Kulm. Electric railcar Bhe 1/2 # 24 from 1937 below Pilatus Kulm._


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## Coccodrillo

On 26.11.2014 the Mendrisio-Stabio section of the line to Varese (Italy) has been inaugurated, while today the public had had the occasion to travel for free with special trains. Regular service will start on 15.12.2014.

Meanwhile, the contract with the builder of the Italian side has been canceled, so a new tender will have to be done to finish the works. It is not known, and it is impossible to know, when the full line will be opened. The earliest realistic date is december 2018, but a delay of 5 full years is more likely. This new branch of the Gotthardbahn leaves from Mendrisio and has a single station, Stabio. Until full opening the only trains going after Stabio will be a weekly fuel freight and service trains using the new line as a parking lot for temporarily unused freight stock.

Previous photo reports:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=104228500&postcount=1172
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=105444279&postcount=1199
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=107088368&postcount=1292
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=115505100&postcount=1776
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=117918226&postcount=2016

In the first photo the special train for authorities on 26.11, on the second one a three-track section (the track to the left being used for shunting for a road-rail transhipment terminal), on the last photo an abandoned worksite on the Italian side (which hosts two tunnels each around 900 m long, a new 500 m long viaduct, and around 4 km of open trenches).

I have taken some photos today but they don't show anything more interesting than those I already posted.

Passenger trains' timetable: http://www.quadri-orario.ch/fileadmin/fap_pdf_fields/2015/630.pdf



m89arco said:


> E' già stata inaugurata oggi pomeriggio e le S40 e S50 saranno attive dal 15 dicembre.
> 
> Foto da tio.ch (articolo e foto: http://www.tio.ch/News/Ticino/Attualita/1006902/Inagurata-la-Mendrisio-Stabio-ma-e-una-festa-a-meta)
> 
> Stazione di Stabio
> 
> image upload no compression
> 
> TILO nei pressi di Ligornetto:
> 
> 
> free upload pictures
> 
> Stato dei lavori nel cantiere italiano per il quale bisognerà quindi attendere la nuova gara di appalto. Tempo previsto: 6 mesi.
> 
> 
> image url upload


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## Vaud

Oh italians.... why do they need a new tender? Did the current contractor go bankrupt?


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## Coccodrillo

The contractor found arsenic during earthworks (tunnels, trenches, ...) and demanded more money to complete the work. Beside that, there was the problem that earth containing arsenic must be treated as a dangerous waste, and for months there have been dicussions on where to put this earth.

Some say that the contractor's bid was too low and predicted such delays, and that it isn't the first time that with this contractor problems arise.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=486052&nseq=366
Georg Trüb, December 20, 2005
_This is a "historic" picture from inside the central signal tower of Winterthur (located in the first floor of the station building) in December 2005 on 01.45 AM at night. In the foreground the keyboard, from which the instructions were given to the large panoramic board visible in the background or in the relay room respectively. The screens show the locations of trains in the region and the train data for the automatic guidance. Since November 2012 this workplaces are abandoned and the signal tower and the whole region of about 50 stations is remote controlled from the new Betriebszentrale (operations center) in Zürich Airport._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=486143&nseq=366
Georg Trüb, October 07, 2013
_This is one of several workplaces in the Operations Center East (BZ Ost) for the control of the railway traffic in the region of Winterthur. In full operation during the day, six such places are busy with train dispatchers, another place for the customer information on the stations and two further places for the supervisor and his assistant. On the left the device for telephony, intercom and radio, then 6 "Iltis" (Integriertes Leit- und Informationssystem/Integrated guidance and Infosystem from Siemens) screens for the operation (remote control) of the signal boxes with the mouse. On the right 4 large screens for information systems such as RCS (Rail Control System), an online graphical timetable or for the ALEA (alarm and incident assistant, which optimally processes information flows in cases of disruption). In the BZ East in Zurich Airport, the SBB network of the eastern part of Switzerland (about 1/3 of the whole network) is controlled and monitored, when completed next year in 8 sectors with a total of about 480 employees. Similar operations centers there are or are under construction in Olten, Lausanne and Pollegio and in Spiez (BLS) for the Lötschberg axis. The Südostbahn has a smaller operations center for her network in Herisau._


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## Bad Worm

Spam King said:


> Spain as well, IIRC on the old line between Madrid and Segovia.


Also at line Valencia-Teruel-Zaragoza are request stops for Intercity trains - quite interesting


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-view/view/swiss-border-link-inaugurated.html
> 
> *Swiss border link inaugurated*
> 05 Dec 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SWITZERLAND: The first section of the FMV cross-border rail link will open for revenue service on December 15, following a formal dedication on November 27 attended by representatives from canton Ticino, the federal government, SBB and TILO, the cross-border transport operator for Ticino and Lombardia.
> 
> Partially funded by the federal government, the Ferrovia Mendrisio – Varese is intended to carry direct cross-border services between Lugano and Milano’s Malpensa Airport, as well as local trains between Como and Varese. The short Swiss section diverges from the Gotthard corridor at Mendrisio and runs to Stabio, near the Italian border, where a new station with a large park-and-ride facility has been created.
> 
> SBB said it had completed the Mendrisio – Stabio section on time and on budget, thanks to innovative engineering techniques including the use of helicopters to install more than 500 catenary masts. However, work on the Italian portion has reportedly been suspended following a dispute between infrastructure manager RFI and the civil works contractor. While the Swiss portion largely follows an existing alignment, the onward connection via Gaggiolo to join the Varese – Porto Ceresio line near Arcisate requires a new route including a part-built viaduct and the 890 m Bevera tunnel. ‘We celebrate with a laughing and a crying eye’, said Claudio Zali, Head of Ticino’s Construction Department
> 
> ...


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## Coccodrillo

Some photos of a Class RABDe 502 "Dosto FV" on one of the firsts trial runs:

http://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/read.php?4,7201497,7201497

(you might have to clic on a link inside a rectangle to see the photos)



> [...] and runs to Stabio, near the Italian border, where a new station with a large park-and-ride facility has been created.


The park&ride isn't large at all: it was initially planned with 60 palces, but later another 150 temporary places has been quickly added as a temporary measure until the Italian part is finished. These temporary places had a simpler authorization procedure, so I suppose they couldn't make them permanent without some burocracy.

The P&R and the station directly only serve around 4.500 inhabitants and some industries.


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## Coccodrillo

Unofficial sources say that Cisalpino will cease to exist with the timetable change this Saturday's night.

Cisalpino ceased operations on December 2009, when SBB and Trenitalia decided to abandon this by then infamous* name, but continued to own the ETR 610s because of the existing contracts with their builder (warranty and so on, leasing them to Trenitalia and SBB. Now this will be no more necessary thus the company will be dissolved.

The last chance to "visit" its website? Here: http://www.cisalpino.com/

*passengers distorted its name into Shitalpino, Cessoalpino (toilet-alpino), and so on because of the bad service...which lead to the website tracking its delays: http://www.cessoalpino.com/


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## NICK CH+




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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=503395&nseq=75
Georg Trüb, October 18, 2014
_Re 460 082 was refurbished in the Yverdon industrial works only 8 days before and looks like new in her shiny red, pulling InterRegio 1430 from Brig to Geneva through the Rhone valley near Turtmann._


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## Goy

*Can someone answer me some questions?

Do TGV French trains run to Switzerland?

Do ICE Germany trains run to Switzerland?*


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## AlexNL

Yes (TGV Lyria) and yes (ICE International, even as far as from Amsterdam!)


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## Suburbanist

Goy said:


> *Can someone answer me some questions?
> 
> Do TGV French trains run to Switzerland?
> 
> Do ICE Germany trains run to Switzerland?*


RailJet trains from Austria also run in Switzerland.


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## dimlys1994

You know, I never lost interest on Rossmarnhausern tunnel. Here is latest shot, taken from webcam:
http://bls.ch/d/infrastruktur/bauprojekte-doppelspurausbau.php
http://baudoku.1000eyes.de/cam/rosshaeusern/00408CDDEAF7/


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=488931&nseq=303
Georg Trüb, July 10, 2014
_One of the oldest SBB locomotives in regular service is shunter Ee 3/3 # 16383, built in 1944! This morning she brought a train into Zürich main station from the yard tracks. On the right a "Domino" RBDe 561._


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## Suburbanist

What does the 3/3 on Ee 3/3 stand for?

It is not a steam loco...


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## AlexNL

As far as I'm aware, "x/y" is the the Swiss way of indicating how many axles a railway vehicle has , and how many of them are powered (x). In this case, all 3 axles are powered axles.

The GTW DMUs and EMUs that are running in the Netherlands have two powered axles on a total of 6 (2 car) or 8 (3 car), giving them the designations 2/6 and 2/8.


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## earthJoker

K_ said:


> This is Switzerland, not US. Swiss get really annoyed by this foreign tendency to treat the whole country as if it was a mere suburb of Zürich.
> There are probably more people commuting from Rafz to Schaffhausen than to Zürich.


I am Swiss but you know what gets me really annoyed? Provincialism.
And you are wrong, the BFS (federal bureau of statistics) defines Rafts as part of the agglomeration of Zürich not Schaffausen.


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...for-switzerlands-zentralbahn.html?channel=537
> 
> *Record year for Switzerland's Zentralbahn*
> Monday, March 02, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _SWISS regional railway Zentralbahn had a record year in 2014, with a new timetable, new trains, and improved marketing to tourists driving a surge in ridership_
> 
> Passenger numbers increased 26% to 9.3 million while traffic rose 16% to 157.7 million passenger-km.
> 
> Zentralbahn is one of Switzerland's largest metre-gauge railways, serving the area between Lucerne, Interlaken and Engelberg and carrying both tourists and commuters
> 
> ...


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=520710&nseq=59
Georg Trüb, February 26, 2015, Col de Bretaye 
_Cogwheel push-pull train of the former Bex-Villars-Bretaye (BVB), now Transports Publiques du Chablais (TPC), near Bretaye, with the highest mountain of the alps, Mont Blanc (4810 meter), in the background. BDeh 4/4 # 81 "Gryon" from 1976 (SWP, SLM, SAAS) with publicity paint scheme for Banque Cantonale Vaudois (BCV), B # 62 and cab car Bt # 64._


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## Coccodrillo

Yet another tunnel is under construction near the Ceneri Base Tunnel's southern portal. After the CBT itself and a road tunnel, it is the turn of a ~1 km utility tunnel (water/electricity), part of a quite big tunnel complex which total a dozen kilometres of rock tunnels which crisscross the hill which houses part of the city of Lugano.

To build these small diametre tunnels, usually not more than 4 m of boring diametre, usually a combination of TBM and 900 m gauge railway are used. The same system was also used for the safety tube of the nearby road tunnel. Big projects like the GBT require dozen of locomotives and hundreds of wagons, here I counted two locomotives, a spoil removal wagon, a cement mxier wagon, and a couple of other wagons.

The railway consist of a straight track likely without switches inside the tunnel, and three switches on the outside which makes up a passing loop and a stub track. To the front of the spoil wagon there was a conveyor belt used to load excavated rock onto trucks, but this has already been dismantled, like the red TBM visible in the second photo (a curiositi by itself, TBMs are mostly painted in white).

In general, most tunnels built by drill&blast like the CBT use road vehicles (although in the CBT there is also a short suspended monorail), while TBM bored tunnels use trains.

This the bridge from which I took the photos: http://goo.gl/maps/KRdeM


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=521178&nseq=48
Georg Trüb, February 28, 2015, between St.Gallen Haggen and Gübsensee
_A unique beautiful and perfectly organized large steam locomotive tour from Zurich around the Säntis mountain of "Steam Adventure Tours". With triple traction of Eb 3/5 # 5819, A 3/5 # 705 and B 3/4 # 1367 (all of SBB Historic and based in Brugg), the 12 car train crosses the highest railway viaduct in Switzerland (99 meter high, 365 meter long, built from 1908 to 1910), the Sitter viaduct of the former Bodensee-Toggenburg-Bahn, today Südostbahn (SOB), near St.Gallen._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=522192&nseq=26
Georg Trüb, March 07, 2015, Eglisau
_Re 6/6 # 11626 "moustache" and Re 4/4 II 11242 are crossing the Rhine viaduct between Eglisau and Hüntwangen._


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## Coccodrillo

Because of works in Horgen Oberdorf station ( http://goo.gl/maps/TkZHv ) the Zürich-Zug line has been closed the weekend of 11/12 April 2015.

Most trains have been diverted on the Südbahn ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aargauische_Südbahn ), but EuroCitys used the Sihltalbahn ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sihltal_railway_line ). Yesterday was also the last day of operation of four SBB's ETR 470 on Milan-Zürich ECs. However, this is not the end of this type of trains as at least two of the four sets will be kept for an extra EuroCity Zürich-Milan Rho Fiera (fairground station) during Expo 2015. In addition, Trenitalia's five ETR 470 will continue to be used on Gotthard ECs at least until the end of the year.

From today, the planned stock for various trains is:
SBB's ETR 610: EC 13, 17, 19, 23 + 12, 16, 20, 22
Trenitalia's ETR 470: EC 15, 21, 25 + 14, 18, 24
SBB loco hauled stock: EC 153 + 158 (Lucerne-Milan)
SBB's ETR 470: EC 305 + 307 (Zürich-Expo 2015, daily 1.1.2015-31.10.2015 only)

Here a video of diverted EC 19 in Zürich Giesshübel ( http://goo.gl/maps/1RLPM ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8P9-Zor460

EC 12 (ETR 470.002) just arrived on track 31 in Zürich HB, waiting to depart as EC 19. This is one of the underground tracks of the new cross-city tunnel. Usually EuroCitys use the surface stub tracks but as they were using a modified timetable there weren't surface tracks available at the time ECs arrived/departed from HB.










EC 21 (ETR 470.001) in Giesshübel ( http://goo.gl/maps/1RLPM ). The orange car is a DC-only EMU, the red car belongs to an AC set (see below the explanation).










Entering the Geisshübel-Wiedikon link, used only by freight, work and tourist trains. Note the complicated double overhead line, for DC and AC, used also on the direct tunnel to the Hauptbahnhof (which leads to two short stub tracks below the HB, with no track connection to the surface).










A DC EMU of the Uetlibergbahn ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uetliberg_railway_line ) exiting a park siding, using the same track of the photo above but the DC wire instead of the AC wire. This and other tracks have two wires above, one fed with 15 kV 16,7 Hz AC on the centre and one fed at 1200 V DC on the side. Originally the AC Sihltalbahn and the DC Uetlibergbahn were basically two separate things. However when they were merged and prolonged to the Hauptbahnhof, instead of converting the Uetliberg line to AC, the SZU decided to buy DC-only EMUs and to move their pantographs 130 cm on one side, resulting in an absurdly complicated operation with some tracks electrified with two systems. However, to avoid as much as possible crossings between AC and DC overhead lines, most tracks have just one wire which complicates train dispatching even more. For instance, the ~2.4 km double track line from Giesshübel to HB has a DC+AC track and an AC-only track to Selnau, then a DC-only and a DC+AC track to HB, then again a DC+AC track and an AC-only track in HB itself. It's like having two parallel single track lines, but which cannot be used as a double track line.

However, SZU finally decided to convert the DC line to AC when the current DC EMus become life-expired around the next decade. To allow more flexibility in the mean time new SZU's EMUs can run both with AC and DC: they are mostly used on the Uetlibergbahn, however they can also run on the Sihltalbahn if needed and can be parked on AC sidings and use AC workshop tracks using their own power (the DC part of the depot is quite cramped).










EC 21, actually running as EC 30021, in Sood-Oberleimbach.










The works in Horgen-Oberdorf consist in replacing some tracks, including the switch which merges the two tracks before the single track Zimmerberg tunnel.










More infos and photos: http://www.bahnonline.ch/wp/85028/s...beiten-bahnhof-horgen-oberdorf-april-2015.htm (not my site)


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## TedStriker

Regular CargoBeamer Service Begins Between Cologne and Melzo


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=527422&nseq=16
Georg Trüb, April 13, 2015, between Winterthur Grüze and Winterthur
_Nightly reconstruction of the track 336 between Winterthur Grüze and Winterthur, using the track rebuild train "Puscal T" of Scheuchzer company. The excavation machine "Elephant" is removing all of the worn out ballast, which is transported over several conveyer belts to specialized cars. On the other 3 tracks of this rail corridor the trains (here a IC2000 push pull train to Romanshorn) are circulating with 80 to 110 km/h._


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## steple

The Second Phase of the Cross-city link DML in Zurich will be opened in December 2015:
































































source: Limmattaler Zeitung http://www.limmattalerzeitung.ch/


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=527365&nseq=41
Georg Trüb, April 14, 2015, between Rupperswil and Lenzburg
_Highspeed tilting train ETR 610 006, running in multiple with RABe 503 012 (ETR 610 second series), on a driver training run from Aarau to Zürich, between Rupperswil and Lenzburg running with 140 km/h._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=510434&nseq=38
David Gubler, December 06, 2014, Bremgarten
_Two ABe 4/8 "Diamant" EMUs cross the Reuss as S17 service to Dietikon._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=528571&nseq=12
Georg Trüb, April 25 2015, Burgdorf
_Electrolocomotive Ae 4/7 # 11026 of association Mikado 1244 in Brugg (AG) brought a charter train from Schaffhausen to Burgdorf this morning. The former SBB express train locomotive with Buchli drive was built in 1934 by SLM and BBC, has about 3000 HP and a velocitiy of 100 km/h._


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## Coccodrillo

Asymmetrical wheelset (2 trailing axes-4 motor axes-1 trailing axis) is a relic of the past - on electric locomotives this was uncommon, and since 50 years or so they have bogies with all axes powered (or an A1A-A1A arrangement, two 3 axes bogies each with a central unpowered axis).

But one of the strangest early Swiss electric locos was the single Ae 4/8: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_Ae_4/8


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=504639&nseq=44
David Gubler, November 01, 2014, Salgesch
_The vines have turned yellow all over Switzerland, and will drop their leaves soon. Luckily we had some nice weather during this narrow time window._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=527242&nseq=0
Peter Hürzeler, April 07, 2015, Apples
_The last golden sun rays of the day gave their best when the Be 4/4 11 with its regional train left the station of Apples towards Bière. In the background the town of Lausanne (on the left), Lake Genèva and the fresh snowed swiss/french alps are visible. Barely two minutes later the sun has gone and night fell over the lovely countryside._


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## el_hoffmann

Amazing photos!


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## Nordic20T

Buffet Car Bre 4/4 of the RBS (Regionalverkehr Bern-Solothurn) on an extra tour for Mother's Day. I took this pic this morning on the line between Bern and Solothurn. 

The car was brought into service in 1916 and was in regular use until 2009. Since then it's mainly used for extra tours like the one today. 

The RBS operates a narrow-gauge railway network (1'000mm) between Bern-Worb and Bern-Solothurn. More info here.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=510552&nseq=220
Jean-Marc Frybourg, June 23, 2014, Nätschen
_The beautiful rake of Pullman cars composing the Alpine Classic Pullmann Express wanders in the Swiss Alps._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=487866&nseq=623
Jean-Marc Frybourg, June 24, 2014, Cadenazzo (Monte Ceneri)
_A short bridge between two tunnels hidden deep in the mountain side, this is another view of the fascinating Gotthard line. This spot is on the south side of the St Gotthard, in Ticino, on the Monte Ceneri between Bellinzona and Lugano._


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## kokomo

Well, I took the plans from one built in exact 1/87 scal, from the original plans, but due to "room constraints" I had to reduce it a bit


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=532782&nseq=3
Georg Trüb, May 29, 2015, Wassen
_Re 460 050 with Interregio 2418 from Locarno to Zürich between Leggistein loop and Strahlloch tunnel near Wassen._


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## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2015/06/09/first-glimpse-of-sbbs-new-double-deck-emu/
> 
> *First glimpse of SBB’s new double-deck EMU*
> 9 JUN, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bombardier has opened the doors of its Villeneuve site in Switzerland to reveal the new double-deck, intercity EMU it is supplying to SBB.
> 
> It is the first time Bombardier and SBB have shown off the interior of the new Twindexx Express IR train.
> 
> The first two pre-series vehicles have now completed static testing at Villeneuve and are due to begin trials on the SBB network
> 
> ...


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=534677&nseq=19
Georg Trüb, June 12, 2015, Stugl/Stuls
_Like on a model railway: tunnel, bridge, a short train. Ge 4/4 I # 605 "Silvretta", built in 1953, with the water tank car WN 9862 as fire fighting train is crossing the Stulsertobel I viaduct between Filisur and Bergün._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=535444&nseq=0
David Gubler, June 19, 2015, Nottwil
_InterRegio 2482 is catching a glimpse of sunshine on its way from Lucerne to Basel._


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## StuZealand

^^

How many passengers can one of those trains accommodate?


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## KingNick

Control car 98 seats, 2nd class 126 seats and 1st class 96 seats.


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## Coccodrillo

The driving car is always second class, but some as the one in the photo have a playing area for children, and so less seats. The coach on the other end is always a first class with a baggage compartment, so again, with fewer seats.

The train in the photo is composed as Bt-B-B-B-A-AD, so should have around 650 seats.

There are also trains with more of these coaches, including a WR (t=driving trailer, A =first class, B=second class, D= luggage compartment, WR=restaurant). The longest of these trains are so heavy that on some lines need two locos, on the Geneva-St. Gallen route some trains are composed of a loco, ~9 double deck coaches, 3 single deck coaches and another loco.

The new Bombardier double deck trains (also known as FV Dosto, "FernVerkehr DOppelSTOck") should even have nearly 1400 seats in a 16-car train (two coupled 8-car sets, 400 m long), a bit less if one is a restaurant car. Other combiantions will be possible, like an 8-car + a 4-car set.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Twindexx_Swiss_Express


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## AlexNL

FV Dosto does not have any Bistro or Restaurant areas, as the cars are basically DB Regio cars painted white and with better interior.


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## K_

AlexNL said:


> FV Dosto does not have any Bistro or Restaurant areas, as the cars are basically DB Regio cars painted white and with better interior.


The SBB FV-Dosto will come in three versions: A 200m IC version, a 200m IR version and a 100m IR version. the 200m IC version will have a restaurant. 
Furthermore these are anything but DB regio cars painted white... The whole design is fundamentally different, and is patterned after the SBB IC2000 cars. 

The maximum length SBB intends to run in regular service is 400m, which is quite impressive for a high frequency IC service. 
The biggest train SBB currently runs is train 842, which is the last IC from Zürich to Bern. 16 IC2000 cars and two engines... But this is basically two consists coupled to save an empty stock move...

http://www.reisezuege.ch/reisezuege/index.php?action=5&znummer=842


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## Nexis

Its the Kiss Cam...


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/bls-upgrades-nina-emus.html?channel=529
> 
> *BLS upgrades Nina EMUs*
> Friday, July 03, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _SWISS passenger operator BLS has initiated a three-year, SFr 30.7m ($US 32.6m) programme to upgrade 36 three and four car Nina EMUs, which will extend the service life of the trains for a further 15-20 years_
> 
> Nina was introduced in 2000 and is used predominately on the Central Switzerland S-Bahn network, and on the Bern S-Bahn in combination with double-deck Mutz EMUs
> 
> ...


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## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2015/07/08/detailed-design-revealed-for-gotthard-giruno-train/
> 
> *Detailed design revealed for Gotthard Giruno train*
> 8 JUL, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More images and renderings are beginning to emerge of the new high-speed Giruno train sets Stadler is supplying to SBB for the Gotthard route as the detailed design phase continues.
> 
> Stadler has built a 1:1 model of the trains interior and as a result has fed back comments from more than 200 people into the next stage of the design process.
> 
> Stadler is building 29 of the transalpine trains for SBB to operate on the Gotthard railway between Switzerland and Italy
> 
> ...


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## Coccodrillo

A kind of wagon rarely seen running: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxEmSBLRDdg

One of the two wagons forming the mobile electrical substation in Balerna has been towed away on Saturday 11.7.2015 at around 14:00. As it was parked on a stub track not linked to the SBB network, it had to be displaced laterally, likely without a crane. The video shows the train running to Chiasso. It was composed of a diesel loco, a firefighting wagon (not used in this case), a service wagon carrying the equipment used to move the substation, and the substation wagon itself. Only one of the two wagons of the substation has been replaced by a container, the other is still lying there, on a track linked to the network. There are many mobile substation in Switzerland, mainly on short isolated sections of tracks.

Location: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?X=78553.1...=it&topic=ech&bgLayer=ch.swisstopo.swissimage


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=537183&nseq=39
Georg Trüb, July 03, 2015, Effingen
_One of only two left Re 4/4 II in the "Swiss Express" paint scheme of the 1970', # 11109, with the CityNightLine train 479 "Komet" from Hamburg to Zürich, running through Effingen on the Bözberg line._


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...tract-for-new-bozberg-tunnel.html?channel=537
> 
> *SBB awards contract for new Bözberg tunnel*
> Thursday, July 16, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _SWISS Federal Railways (SBB) has awarded Implenia, Switzerland, the SFr 145m ($US 152m) main construction contract for the new Bözberg tunnel, a key component of a SFr 940m project to increase the loading gauge on the Gotthard corridor to accommodate lorry semitrailers with a corner height of 4m_
> 
> Construction will begin on the new SFr 350m 2.7km tunnel between Effingen and Schinznach on the Basle - Zürich line in spring 2016, with commissioning scheduled for 2020
> 
> ...


Does anybody have pictures on how the new tunnel will look like?


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=539220
Georg Trüb, July 20, 2015, Villeneuve
_Brand new doubledeck Intercity train RABe 502 # 204 (IR200 version) from Bombardier Transportation for the SBB. The 200 meter long 8 car train was put together and commissioned in Villeneuve and is now pulled by Re 4/4 II # 11278 to Basel, for further transport to Velim in Czech Republic for test runs. The SBB will get 30 of this IR200 version, 23 of the Intercity version "IC200" (with a dining car and a small baggage compartment) and 9 of a shorter 4 car "IR100" Version, in total 62 trains._


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## vigiliant

^^ oh what a beauty


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## webeagle12

vigiliant said:


> ^^ oh what a beauty


I think I'm in love


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## steple

And another photo of the RABe 502:










http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=539314&nseq=0
Georg Trüb, July 20, 2015, Villeneuve
_This is the At end car of the train, street running between the Bombardier works and Villeneuve station, pulled by Eem 923 014._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=538723&nseq=30
Georg Trüb, July 17, 2015, Amsteg
_The last journey of the luxurious Venice Simplon-Orient-Express (VSOE) to Venice before summer break. Re 4/4 II # 11159 (second series) and # 11111 (first series) with the long and heavy 17 car train on the 53 meter high Chärstelenbach bridge, spanning the Bristen gorge in Amsteg on the Gotthard north ramp._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=540056&nseq=27
Georg Trüb, July 26, 2015, between Alvaneu and Filisur 
_Electric railcar ABe 4/4 # 501 from 1939 is crossing the 36 meter high and 120 meter long Schmittentobel viaduct on the Albula line near Filisur._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=540804&nseq=2
Georg Trüb, August 01, 2015, Erstfeld
_This large double locomotive "Gotthard Monster" Ae 8/14 # 11801 was built in 1931 by SLM and BBC with a Buchli single axle drive and 5416 kW, weighing 240 ton. She was in regular service till 1975 and is now operational for SBB Historic in Erstfeld._


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## StuZealand

Projects like the CBT and GBT are closed for the summer break now, aren't they?


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## K_

StuZealand said:


> Projects like the CBT and GBT are closed for the summer break now, aren't they?


Why would they be?


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## Coccodrillo

During the boring of the GBT, TBMs were usually halted in August, but maintenance was carrieed out on them, and other works (except excavating) continued. Often civil works are halted during two weeks in August, at least in Ticino.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=540258&nseq=25
Georg Trüb, July 28, 2015, Göschenen
_In less than one second the long nose of the highspeed tilting train ETR 610 will disappear in the 15 kilometer long Gotthard tunnel. Eurocity 19 is running from Zürich to Milan._


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## Coccodrillo

The tilting ETR 610 (alias RABe 503) were ordered in three batches for a total of 26 sets (14+8+4 units, the first 14 due to enter service in 2009, the last 4 not yet delivered), now 7 belonging to Trenitalia and 19 to the SBB.

Although intended to be used also on the Gotthard line, approval on the most curvy and steep section took years. This, together with the fact that of the initial 14 units 7 have been being used only in Italy for years so just 7 were available to both the Gotthard and Simplon routes, meant that all the effort put to have them approved on the Gotthard line will have had an effect just for less than 2 years.

These sets have been running on the difficult section of the Gotthardbahn only since the 11th April 2015, and will run there only until the 10th December 2016 (opening of the base tunnel) (although for one year, 2011 or 2012 I don't remember, one single set had also been used on the Gotthard).

Not only that, since the 15th June 2014 EuroCity trains use a new timetable that doesn't require tilting technology anymore. This means that the ETR 610, built with tilting technology for the Gotthard line, will have never* used their tilting technology, and will have run on the line they were designed to for just 1 year and 8 months.

*they actually tilt, like the one in the photo does, but don't run faster than trains that do not tilt - so the expensive tilting technology is quite a waste of money (they don't tilt a lot on the Simplon route either)


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## Sunfuns

Those trains are still almost new. Where will they be used in the future?


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## Coccodrillo

It is not known - I mean, certainly not even SBB know where to use them in the future. Trenitalia should continue to use its 7 sets on Switzerland-Italy EuroCitys, but SBB should use mainly the new Stadler Giruno trains which are just starting construction phase.

They are approved in Germany so they might run there (Zürich-münchen EuroCitys, for instance), or might be modified to be used on Switzerland-France-Belgium services partly over the LGV Est. They can run under 3, 15 and 25 kV, so they can theoretically run almost everywhere on the European standard gauge network.

They are more than "almost new" - the last has been delivered a couple of months ago, and 4 are still under construction for delivery in 2017.


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## Sunfuns

Why can't they also be used on regular Swiss intercity routes? If there is simply no need for more trainsets then perhaps indeed regional (not Paris) services to France.


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## Bad Worm

Coccodrillo said:


> These sets have been running on the difficult section of the Gotthardbahn only since the 11th April 2015, and will run there only until the 10th December 2016 (opening of the base tunnel) (although for one year, 2011 or 2012 I don't remember, one single set had also been used on the Gotthard).


I think that ETR610 runs at one pair of Eurocity trains from December 2014. I was at Gotthard line in February 2015 and I have seen ETR610 at EC17 train.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ Yes, that's true, I forgot that. They were (and still are) used on EC 17 and 20 since December 2014. The ETR 610 have been used also on the EC 153/158 Basel-Luzern-Milano and return for a year around 2011. However, it is only since April 2015 that they run on most EuroCity trains on the Gotthard line (now there are 4 return trips with ETR 610, 3 with ETR 470, and 1 with hauled stock).

@Sunfuns: starting from 2023 there will be very restrictive rules regarting wheelchair accessibility of public transport vehicles. Simplifying, _every_ vehicle (train, bus, ship, ropeway...) will have to have a level access. The ETR 610 can carry wheelchair users, but only if the station has a movable lift on the platform, which will not be allowed anymore. That's a problem also for ICN and older vehicles, which will have to be adapted. Unless if the law is modified in a less radical way (as far I know, the only exceptions from 2023 will be for routes where tilting trains are needed and for non-Swiss trains running on EuroCity - all other trains will have to have at least one low floor coach). This is to say that it will be difficult to use the ETR 610...


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## Sunfuns

I see... That disqualifies a lot of rolling stock, though. Including most of the trains I use to commute to work every day.


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## dimlys1994

The news that I've been waiting for a long time - from Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ed-in-lotschberg-base-tunnel.html?channel=537
> 
> *Second track for Lötschberg Base Tunnel*
> Monday, August 17, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _SWITZERLAND's second-largest railway company BLS is to issue a public tender for a contract to lengthen the double-track section of the Lötschberg Base Tunnel_
> 
> The 34.6km tunnel was opened in 2007 but in order to bring increasing costs under control only a single track was installed on the 21km stretch between the northern portal near Frutigen and the southern crossover between the running tunnels at Ferden
> 
> ...


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=543224
Georg Trüb, August 20, 2015, between Luterbach-Attisholz and Deitingen
_The "Crocodile" Ce 6/8 III # 14305 of SBB Historic from Olten made a test run today to Solothurn and back, with regard to the "Sweden adventure". The load was 120 ton of Ae 6/6 # 11425 "Genf/Genève". On August 31th the long and challenging trip to Sweden will start, where the locomotive will take part in the celebrations of 100 years of electric traction in Sweden in the railway museum in Gävle on the weekend 12th/13th September. The locomotive was built in 1926 by SLM and MFO and withdrawn from regular service in 1976. It will be pulled through Germany and Poland by other locomotives to the port of Swinoujscie, then brought to Ystad in southern Sweden by railway ferry and dragged to Ängelholm on the west coast. There, it should be made roadworthy and then running under own power during 2 days and one night to Gävle, the arrival there scheduled for 7th September. On the lowered pantograph a special contact shoe (1800 mm instead of 1450 mm width) is already mounted for the wider overhead wire zigzags in Sweden. Good luck and safe journey, Crocodile!_


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> @Sunfuns: starting from 2023 there will be very restrictive rules regarting wheelchair accessibility of public transport vehicles. Simplifying, every vehicle (train, bus, ship, ropeway...) will have to have a level access. The ETR 610 can carry wheelchair users, but only if the station has a movable lift on the platform, which will not be allowed anymore. That's a problem also for ICN and older vehicles, which will have to be adapted. Unless if the law is modified in a less radical way (as far I know, the only exceptions from 2023 will be for routes where tilting trains are needed and for non-Swiss trains running on EuroCity - all other trains will have to have at least one low floor coach). This is to say that it will be difficult to use the ETR 610...


According to the draft regulation The railways only have to offer level access at least once an hour. If there are more trains not every train has to provide level boarding.


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## Sunfuns

Just by random chance happened to use Railjet today traveling from Buchs to Zurich and was surprised that it originates not in Vienna, but all the way in Budapest. I looked it up of course and turns out there is one such train a day and it takes 11 1/2 hours for the whole distance.


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## webeagle12

Sunfuns said:


> Just by random chance happened to use Railjet today traveling from Buchs to Zurich and was surprised that it originates not in Vienna, but all the way in Budapest. I looked it up of course and turns out there is one such train a day and it takes 11 1/2 hours for the whole distance.


I rode Zurich-Vienna ( it was terminated there) and it was beautiful ride. Love their premium class


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## railcity

Sunfuns said:


> Why can't they also be used on regular Swiss intercity routes? If there is simply no need for more trainsets then perhaps indeed regional (not Paris) services to France.


Adding to Coccodrillo it seems to me also that the capacity of the ETR are not sufficient for most Swiss routes.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=551908&nseq=47
Georg Trüb, October 21, 2015, Bernina Lagalb 
_View from the passenger compartment behind the cab, separated by a window, of "Allegra" trainset ABe 8/12 to the crossing train 1641 in Bernina Lagalb with ABe 8/12 # 3511._


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## Coccodrillo

The ETR 470 owned by SBB are going to be demolished in Switzerland. SBB tried to sell them, but found no buyer, not even Trenitalia. The only serious buyer would have been one already operating a fleet of similar trains, like Trenitalia which owns a total of 30 such trains (including the 470s).

Since the dissolution of Cisalpino, SBB owns units 2, 3, 5 and 9, while Trenitalia owns 1, 4, 6, 7, and 8. These will likely be used on Italian domestic services like Rome-Ancona and Rome-Reggio Calabria, already operated with similar units (but which are 3 kV DC only, or 3+25 kV).

Once SBB's CEO said he would have sold these 4 units to anyone paying them 1 CHF more than the company now destroying them. These trains are not new, but neither old, having around 18 years. They are would not have been approved for the Gotthard base tunnel, too few, and to different from any other Swiss train, so it was not worth to maintain them.

3 of the 4 SBB units stopped running in April 2015, the forth was used until October for some extra trains for Milan's World Expo, while the 5 Trenitalia units (only 1 or 2 run each day, the others wait in a depot) will continue to be used on the Gotthard route until the timetable change this December.

These runs at least on trains 14, 21 and 24 (Milan-Zürich and return).


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...iew/sbb-inaugurates-olten-control-centre.html
> 
> *SBB inaugurates Olten control centre*
> 17 Nov 2015
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> 
> SWITZERLAND: Swiss Federal Railways formally inaugurated its regional control centre at Olten on November 17, in a ceremony attended by SBB CEO Andreas Meyer, the president of canton Solothurn Roland Fürst and the Mayor of Olten Martin Wey.
> 
> BZ Mitte is one of four regional centres that will eventually manage the entire SBB network, under a consolidation programme launched in 2006. BZ West in Lausanne was opened in May 2010, followed by BZ Ost at Zürich Airport in December of that year, and BZ Süd at Pollegio in April 2014
> 
> ...


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## suasion

Some choice quotes about the 470s in this article



> “We are satisfied about the decision of Swiss Federal Railways to phase out the ETR-470. Trains which have so many breakdowns are not worthy of the federal railways,” Gerhard Tubandt, spokesman for the Swiss Association for Transport and the Environment, told swissinfo.ch.





> “They upset the passengers and damage the reputation of the federal railways which are known for the punctuality of their trains, so it’s a pity that the ETR-470 are not taken out of service earlier but we understand that the federal railways are at full capacity and cannot immediately replace trains.”





> At a news conference in Basel on Tuesday, the chief executive of Swiss Federal Railways, Andreas Meyer, did not mince his words. He said the company wanted “put an end to this horror”.





> On May 17, one of the trains caught fire in the southern Swiss canton of Ticino, which may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back.
> “I do not want to see such pictures as we saw in Ambri a few days ago again,” Meyer said.






> The lack of quality and reliability lead both companies to have a reserve train at each terminus of the Zurich-Milan route.
> Maintenance of the four Pendolinos belonging to Switzerland costs four times more than that of the ICN tilting trains of the Swiss Federal Railways.


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## Coccodrillo

The disaster was not only 470's fault. SBB and Trenitalia wanted unrealistic running times, basically there were no time reserves in the timetable so every little delay (not so uncommon, especially in Italy) propagated the whole day (some sets had 4 booked runs a day, or two Zürich-Milan return trips a day, and a 10' delay of the first train became a 60' delay on the fourth trip).

In addition SBB wanted to halve the number of trips from 15 to 7 a day. So to be honest, these unreliable EMUs were not the only problem, but just one of many.

Here are three of the sets being towed to the demolition yard. One photo shows an uncoupled end car showing the electrical and pneuamtic cables clearly cut and not dismantled. Then a funny video about one of the malunctions: the tilting mechanism of one coach failed and the coach started to dance for some time :nuts:

http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/mi...hrottplatz-ciao-ciao-pendolino-id4362171.html

This was a particularly unfortunate series of Pendolinos, the technology was not knew but AFAIK they were only the third big batch of Pendolinos to be built. The ETR 610 (Pendolino 3th generation) which SBB owns and of which has even ordered more units (7 from Cisalpino + 8 second batch + 4 third batch) works quite well.


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> The disaster was not only 470's fault. SBB and Trenitalia wanted unrealistic running times, basically there were no time reserves in the timetable so every little delay (not so uncommon, especially in Italy) propagated the whole day (some sets had 4 booked runs a day, or two Zürich-Milan return trips a day, and a 10' delay of the first train became a 60' delay on the fourth trip).


One thing I often noticed is that Trenitalia appeared not prepared to use the turnaround time in Milano as a buffer. 
For example. a train woud arrive in Milano at 10:45 and had to leave again in the direction of Zürich at 11:10. I've seen it on a few occasions that this train arrived with a delay of 10 minutes, and thus was made to leave again with a delay of 10 minutes as well...

And booking two return trips Zürich - Milano on a single set should not be an issue for a modern railways and good rolling stock.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/556806
Georg Trüb, December 02, 2015, Landquart
_Today the first 3 cars for a new "Albula Gliederzug" (jointed push pull train for the Albula line) was delivered from Stadler Rail Altenrhein to the RhB in Landquart. The diesel locomotive Gmf 23404 "Bernina" is just pulling the 1 meter gauge cars from the standard gauge transport cars. The new Albula trains will have 7 cars, including a cab car, pulled/pushed by Ge 4/4 III locomotives._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=556809&nseq=12
Georg Trüb, December 02, 2015, Heiden
_During the revision of the BDeh 3/6 25, the vintage BDeh 2/4 # 24 (lettered as ABDeh 2/4) from 1967 is running the hourly service on the standard gauge cogwheel Rorschach-Heiden-Bergbahn (part of the Appenzeller Bahnen since 2006)._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=557593&nseq=4
Georg Trüb, December 07, 2015, near Trois-Villes
_Cab car Bt # 55, electric railcar Be 4/4 # from 1981 and cab car Bt # 51 high above the sea of fog in the rocks near the small stop of Trois-Villes on the Yverdon-Ste-Croix Railway._


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-for-geneva-cornavin-station.html?channel=537
> 
> *Underground expansion for Geneva Cornavin station*
> Wednesday, December 09, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _PLANS to upgrade Geneva's main railway station at Cornavin by constructing an underground extension with two tracks took a step forward yesterday with the signing of a general agreement by representatives of the Swiss Federal Office of Transport and the city and Canton of Geneva_
> 
> The SFr 1.6bn ($US 1.6bn) project has been commissioned by Swiss Federal Railways (SBB) as an essential part of its plan to boost services following the introduction of the Leman Express RER in 2019 on the new CEVA line between Cornavin, Eaux-Vives and Annemasse
> 
> ...


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## Coccodrillo

^^ That's not entirely correct:



> Access for trains from Lausanne will be via a double-track tunnel, with a single track tunnel from Geneva airport.


The plan is to use the two new underground tracks one way (Airport > Geneva > Lausanne, IIRC - or the inverse), dedicating the two of the surface tracks for the other direction of the airport line. The lines to Annemasse and to Bellegarde would have their dedicated tracks (2 and 3+1 respectively).

In a second phase, some decades later, an additional two tracks would be built so to have 4 underground tracks for the airport line, four surface for Annemasse and three (plus, if still needed, one short stub, today's track 5) for Bellegarde-Paris/Lyon.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=557692&nseq=5
Georg Trüb, December 08, 2015, below Arzier
_Train of the Nyon-St-Cergue-Morez Railway (NStCM) from Nyon to La Cure below Arzier, with the snow covered Alps in the background. Cab car ABt # 302 and railcar Be 4/4 # 204._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=558014&nseq=0
Georg Trüb, December 12, 2015, Winterthur
_It seems that there will be a new design for the Re 460 series probably. Coincidentally seen this evening in Winterthur, Re 460 # 111 with a raised SBB signet in chromium on the front, but no vehicle number. I don't know if it is only an attempt or a decided future design._


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## Coccodrillo

The end of SBB's ETR 470: http://schweizer-bahnen.ch/berichte/hommage-etr470.html (photos at the demolition yard below).

For some burocratic reasons I don't know Trenitalia wasn't able to buy SBB's sets. The 9 identical sets built around 1996 for Cisalpino were split between SBB (4 units) and Trenitalia (5 units) in 2009.

Although they were quite unreliable, the result is that Trenitalia's units will continue to be used for the years to come while SBB units are being demolished after less than 20 years of service, which is less than half the lifetime of a train.

However, in the last 5 years SBB units were used intensively, with up to 3 out of 4 running daily, while Trenitalia's units very often were kept idle in some depot (1 or 2 out of 5 running), so they have likely a noticeable lower mileage than SBB units.

The last ETR 470 in regular service Switzerland has been #009 running yesterday 12.12.2015 as EuroCity 15 Zürich 9.32 - Milan 13.35. It ran with two coaches without air conditioning/ventilation, the floor bending in coach #3, and with some doors out of use. It was the least used of the series recently, and it was clear that SBB did on it just the bare minimum to keep it running, avoiding any non vital repair.

Here some photos taken on the very last public trip: http://www.sguggiari.ch/1_archivio_news_2015_2.php?id=ultimo-etr-470

It is now in Milan and will be brought back to Switzerland for demolition tomorrow.


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## Suburbanist

So SBB purposefully defrayed maintenance and then claimed the sets were unreliable to be kept in service?

Sounds like quite a managerial plot to get new trains. 

The Cisalpino was a good initiative, but different management philosophies and priorities on both sides of the border undermined its success.


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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> So SBB purposefully defrayed maintenance and then claimed the sets were unreliable to be kept in service?


No, SBB sets were kept in good working order until 11.4.2015, the last day of their regular service. When SBB announced their whitdrawal in 2011, they announced they would have spent 12 million CHF to maintain them until delivery of new replacement trains, which have since arrived (the new 8 ETR 610). This equals to 1 million per year per set, just for maintenance (for the period 2011-April 2015).

It is just one of the four set, #009, which has been kept in working order after that date, but just as reserve for the additional special trains for Milan's World Expo 2015. As it has very rarely been used after 11.4.2015, SBB wasn't really willing to spend much money on it.

Trenitalia's sets although identical have a completely separate management and maintenance since 2009.


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## Suburbanist

Will the Loetschberg tunnel freight traffic be reduced with the opening of the Gotthard?


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## k.k.jetcar

> Train of the Nyon-St-Cergue-Morez Railway (NStCM) from Nyon to La Cure below Arzier, with the snow covered Alps in the background.


Ah, typical Swiss winter weather there. Valleys in thick fog, sunny up in the hills...


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## suasion

> So SBB purposefully defrayed maintenance and then claimed the sets were unreliable to be kept in service?


Complete nonsense, unlike train operators in other countries SBB focus on a functional reliable system, I don't believe I have ever experienced a cancelled or seriously delayed train in Switzerland. I suspect an SBB manager would be more likely to rip out and eat his own kidney than to deliberitely upset the timetable.


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## Sunfuns

suasion said:


> Complete nonsense, unlike train operators in other countries SBB focus on a functional reliable system, *I don't believe I have ever experienced a cancelled or seriously delayed train in Switzerland. *I suspect an SBB manager would be more likely to rip out and eat his own kidney than to deliberitely upset the timetable.


Let's not exaggerate - it does happen sometimes and in fact it has happened more often recently. If you don't commute with a train every day like I do you could be lucky for a very long time because it still is relatively rare. In the last 6 years I've been delayed by more than 1 h three times (train broke down once and two times there were suicides).


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## Suburbanist

Cisalpino trains were routinely cancelled


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## suasion

> Let's not exaggerate - it does happen sometimes and in fact it has happened more often recently. If you don't commute with a train every day like I do you could be lucky for a very long time* because it still is relatively rare. In the last 6 years I've been delayed by more than 1 h three times (train broke down once and two times there were suicides*).


icard: How do I exaggerate? nowhere did I claim trains are never late. I merely stated that I believe I have never experienced any noticable delay. And while I was never daily commuter, I used to work there and was a regular rail user and I still use trains when I visit. Your anecdotal evidence supports my claim. Try being a daily rail user in Holland or Germany and see how that goes.


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## suasion

> Cisalpino trains were routinely cancelled


but not for the reasons you claim.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=558340&nseq=3
Georg Trüb, December 13, 2015, Zürich
_Long and heavy 10 car "IC2000" double deck train, reinforced with 3 standard cars type IV, on the 2.7 % grade of the Letzigraben bridge between Zürich main station and Zürich Altstetten. Such heavy trains like the IC 712 from St. Gallen to Geneva Airport have now two Re 460 locomotives top and tail, running in multiple. The grade from the new underground through tracks 31-34 in Zürich towards Altstetten is up to 4.0 %!_


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=558583&nseq=0
Georg Trüb, December 11, 2015, Bern
_Bern, capital of Switzerland, during the "Blue Hour", with house of parliament, seat of the Swiss government (Federal Council) and the parliament (National Council and Council of States). In the foreground double deck train RABe 511 is crossing the large, 47 meter high 4 tracks Lorraine viaduct over the Aare river, built in 1941, with a main span of 150 meter. In the background the Gurten hill and behind the 2190 meter high Stockhorn with a light on the top._


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## Wilhem275

This guy really knows how to do it...


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=555183&nseq=110
Georg Trüb, October 20, 2015, between Stablini and Alp Grüm
_"Allegra" ABe 8/12 # 3503 with train 1632 Tirano - St. Moritz is rounding the very tight 180 degree Stablini curve, seen from the Belvedere restaurant above Alp Grüm. In the background the Cavaglia plane._


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## Nexis

steple said:


> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=558340&nseq=3
> Georg Trüb, December 13, 2015, Zürich
> _Long and heavy 10 car "IC2000" double deck train, reinforced with 3 standard cars type IV, on the 2.7 % grade of the Letzigraben bridge between Zürich main station and Zürich Altstetten. Such heavy trains like the IC 712 from St. Gallen to Geneva Airport have now two Re 460 locomotives top and tail, running in multiple. The grade from the new underground through tracks 31-34 in Zürich towards Altstetten is up to 4.0 %!_


Why do they run a mix of single and double decker cars?


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## hammersklavier

Nexis said:


> Why do they run a mix of single and double decker cars?


To cope with extra traffic?


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## K_

Sunfuns said:


> Let's not exaggerate - it does happen sometimes and in fact it has happened more often recently. If you don't commute with a train every day like I do you could be lucky for a very long time because it still is relatively rare. In the last 6 years I've been delayed by more than 1 h three times (train broke down once and two times there were suicides).


That's my experience tool. I often say that SBB doesn't mess up things often, but when they do, it's often in a big way.

I've commuted Bern - Zürich for 3 years, and Bern - Basel for 2 years, and the every year there were indeed a couple of times when a train got delayed so much I noticed it. Once stuck on a train to Basel for two hours (while my collegues were being told in an extraordinary employee meeting that the company was bankrupt and we were all out of a job) and once I returnd to Bern via Luzern as there was an interruption in Dietikon, and I wasn't realy intending to wait for it to get resolved, so I just traveller around it...

And there is of course the infamous June 22nd, 2005...


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Cisalpino trains were routinely cancelled


Usually when an international train gets cancelled or delayed the SBB will put in place a a replacement train for it's domestic section. This happens a lot with ICEs on Basel - Interlaken and Basel - Zürich. and is also done on the Gotthard. For a while all Cisalpino's had a train shadowing them, so that domestic passengers were not inconvenienced if Trenitalia _again_ made a train leave Milano late.


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## K_

Nexis said:


> Why do they run a mix of single and double decker cars?


That is common practice in Switzerland. The basic consist on Geneve - st. Gallen and Brig - Romanshorn IC services is 9 or 10 IC2000 cars. During rush hour a "module" is added, usually consiting of EWIV cars, and in a few cases even a second locomotive. 
If SBB had enough IC2000 cars they would add double deck modules. They will do this once the Twindexx sets enter service.


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## Coccodrillo

The basic configuration of these IC is a Re 460 loco with around 10 double deck (dd) coaches. At peak times, a group with one or two single deck (sd) plus one sd driving trailer is added. These small group of coaches are usually kept in yards coupled ready to be added at peak times. The result is:

loco + dd coaches + dd driving trailer + sd coaches + sd driving trailer

On heavier trains a second loco is needed, and this is usually placed on the other end of the train (not in the middle):

loco + dd coaches + dd driving trailer + sd driving trailer + sd coaches + loco (as in the photo above)

There is at least one evening IC on the Brig-Bern route scheduled to use two groups of peak hour single deck coaches, instead of a standard set of single or double deck coaches. So the result is:

loco + coach + coach + driving trailer + coach + driving trailer (likely each with its own conductor/train manager)

The driving trailers don't have a gangway on one side, so each group of coaches is isolated from the other.

These dd coaches have gangways on the second floor, not at the standard height as the sd coaches. So when sometimes dd coaches are not available they are replaced by sd coaches without pass-through connection. I have seen a photo of a train composed of a group of dd coaches, a single sd driving trailer, two sd coaches and a sd driving trailer. In this case, there are even 3 groups of coaches, with the driving trailer in the middle without pass-through connection with any of the adjacent coaches.

Another curious configuration is loco + sd driving trailer + sd coaches: this is rarely used on the Gotthard line. As on this line there are limitations to driving trailers because of steepness and tight curves, even when a driving trailer is present in the consist, the loco usually run round at the terminus, and the driving trailer is not used to drive the train. Obviously this happens rarely, as driving trailers are needed elsewhere and are not used on the Gotthard. But if this happens, they are usually towed, and not pushed by the loco.


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## K_

There is even one train run with a double DD consist: The 0:02 IC 842 from Zürich to Bern. Probably the longest train in the current schedule: A total of 16!! IC2000 coaches and 2 loco's. However, only one of the consists is open to the public, and given the late time I suppose it's just a way for SBB to save themselves and emtpy movement.


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## hammersklavier

K_ said:


> There is even one train run with a double DD consist: The 0:02 IC 842 from Zürich to Bern. Probably the longest train in the current schedule: A total of 16!! IC2000 coaches and 2 loco's. However, only one of the consists is open to the public, and given the late time I suppose it's just a way for SBB to save themselves and emtpy movement.


The technical term for a non-revenue move is "deadhead". This word can be used as a noun or a verb:

- "It's a scheduled deadhead move"
- "I caught SBB deadheading a string of EMU's through Zürich Hbf the other day"


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## N830MH

hammersklavier said:


> To cope with extra traffic?



Yes, too many traffic. That's a problem. Staying away from Zurich.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=559648&nseq=9
Georg Trüb, December 24, 2015, between Elgg and Schottikon
_Re 430 351 (Re 4/4 III 11351) is pulling mail train 50920 from Gossau to Zürich Mülligen between Elgg and Schottikon. The swiss post "Die Post" gets 55 new Habbiillnss freight cars with sliding doors from car builder Niesky/Germany, rented from Wascosa. 4 of this brand new cars are behind the locomotive, transporting letters in roll containers._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=560497&nseq=8
Georg Trüb, January 01, 2016, between Rigi Staffel and Rigi Kulm 
_New year morning on the Rigi, called "King of Mountains". Cogwheel push pull train with cab car Bt # 21 and railcar BDhe 2/4 # 11 (built by SLM and SAAS in 1949) with Pilatus mountain in the background and the sea of fog in the valley._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/561100
Georg Trüb, January 05, 2016, between Bettlach and Selzach 
_Test run for pantograph measuring with the new double deck Intercity train "Twindexx Swiss Express" RABe 502 # 203 from Bombardier for the SBB, between Solothurn and Grenchen Süd._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=560938&nseq=17
Georg Trüb, January 04, 2016, Lausanne
_The Lausanne train station has one of the most beautiful platform halls, effectively illuminated in the blue hour. The construction of the hall, finished in March 1912, is a team work of Bosshard from Näfels, Buss AG from Basel and Schweizer from Albisrieden, Zürich. The single-bay hall with a dimension of 200 meter to 44 meter has a span of 30 meter over 6 tracks / 3 platforms and was renovated with new illumination in 2005._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=566732&nseq=6
Georg Trüb, February 18, 2016, Grindelwald Grund
_The small green cogwheel locomotive He 2/2 # 51 built in 1909 (!) is shunting the brandnew cogwheel car for the Jungfraubahn, rolling on auxiliary bogies, into the shed of the WAB._


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## Coccodrillo

^^ this because the JB line has 1000 mm gauge, but is linked to the main road network only by the 800 mm gauge WAB line, so any new stock has to run on auxiliary bogies (something like this) to be delivered.

Although there are roads to the Kleine Scheidegg, these are narrow and closed in winter (when they are used for skiers), so the WAB line is the best way to transport new trains.

**********

The ETR 470.001 has received a new livrery, so likely will sister units 4, 6, 7, 8. SBB units 2, 3 and 5 does not exist anymore, while #9 is still apparently in working order. Some say it would be nice to keep it as an historic vehicle, others that CD would like to reuse parts (including one cab coach) of an SBB ETR 470 to repair one of its Class 680 Pendolino trains which has been heavily damaged hitting a truck. Both the 470s and 680s although different belong to the same family of trains.

http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1563546#p1563546

https://www.facebook.com/ETR-470-SBB-CFF-FFS-e-TI-191244404259768/


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=567245&nseq=15
Georg Trüb, February 11, 2016, Airolo
_Intercity tilting train RABDe 500 # 012 "Jean Rudolf von Salis" in Airolo, running through the aqueduct of the Ri del Dragone._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=566506&nseq=47
Georg Trüb, February 15, 2016, near Ospizio Bernina
_"Allegra" ABe 8/12 # 3509 with train 1621 from St. Moritz to Poschiavo in the fresh powder snow near Ospizio Bernina._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=564939&nseq=97
Georg Trüb, February 06, 2016, Wassen
_The heavy HUPAC intermodal train 42027 from Köln Eifeltor/Germany to the Busto Arsizio Terminal in Gallarate/Italy is tackling the 2.6 % grade of the northern Gotthard ramp near Wassen. Pulling are Re 6/6 # 11683 "Amsteg-Silenen" and Re 4/4 II # 11341 in multiple (called "Re 10/10") and pushing in the rear (from Erstfeld to Göschenen) Re 421 # 388 in the "Cargo" paint scheme._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=568539&nseq=2
Georg Trüb, February 24, 2016, Zweisimmen
_The powerful 880 kW double railcar ABDe 8/8 # 4004 from 1968, built by SLM, BBC and SAAS, under the old wooden canopy of Zweisimmen station._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=568678
Georg Trüb, March 07, 2016, between Grandvaux and Bossière
_Test run of the new doubledeck Intercity train "Twindexx Swiss Express" RABe 502 # 203 from Bombardier for the SBB. The train circulated from Fribourg to Lausanne for testing of the new WAKO, a mechatronic solution designed to compensate the natural roll movement of a carbody. The train is running through the vineyards between Grandvaux and Bossière with Lake Geneva in the background._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=568877&nseq=6
Georg Trüb, March 08, 2016, Vaulruz Sud
_Long test train of the tpf (Transports Publics Fribourgeois) with 4 new trains from Stadler Rail near Vaulruz Sud, on the way from Bulle to Chatel-St-Denis. The about 225 meter long train is formed as follows: ABe 2/4 # 101, B # 101, Be 2/4 # 101. ABe 2/4 # 104, B # 104, Be 2/4 # 104. ABe 2/4 # 106, B # 106, B # 103, Be 2/4 # 106. ABe 2/4 # 103, Be 2/4 # 103. Train 106 has a publicity paint scheme for GESA (Gruyère Energie SA)._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=560332&nseq=126
Jean-Marc Frybourg, June 22, 1981, Lausanne
_A regional train stands under the famous Lausanne station canopy. It is hauled by a Re 4/4 I built in 1948, from the first Re 4/4 I sub-series 10001-10026._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=569565&nseq=9
Georg Trüb, March 14, 2016, Brig
_View of Brig, transport hub in the Upper Valais, at night, with the passenger station (left) and the freight yard (right). From the Lötschberg mountain route, the "Lötschberger" RegioExpress 4281 from Bern winds along the hillside down to the station. From track 1 an ETR 610 of the SBB leaves as EuroCity 36 from Milan to Geneva towards Visp. On track 4 and 7 there are Intercity trains of the SBB visible. In the foreground, the light traces of a train can be seen, which is being put away in the sidings from track 3. Right of the railway tracks the Rhone (or the Rotten, as the river is called in the German speaking upper Valais), and on the other side of the river the city Naters. Up on the hillside are the lights of Mund and Birgisch villages._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=518018&nseq=42
David Gubler, February 07, 2015, Nätschen
_This might be the only rack railway in the world operating car shuttle trains: Since in winter there is no road alternative, there is a car shuttle train over the Oberalp Pass from Andermatt to Sedrun and back, running three times a day. As drivers can't stay in their cars, the train also has a passenger car._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=554121&nseq=2
David Gubler, November 11, 2015, Pilatus
_A Pilatus Bahnen railcar is headed down to Alpnachstad. This picture was shot from the Matthorn (not to be confused with the Matterhorn), a nearby peak._


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## Perennial Quest

Amazing shot! 



steple said:


> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=554121&nseq=2
> David Gubler, November 11, 2015, Pilatus
> _A Pilatus Bahnen railcar is headed down to Alpnachstad. This picture was shot from the Matthorn (not to be confused with the Matterhorn), a nearby peak._


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## Coccodrillo

The other side of the mountain is quite steep, with a great view of the Swiss plateau (actually a hilly terrain, not a plain). Thus even if the mountain is not high (2100 m) the difference with its base is (the lake is at 434 m).

https://www.google.ch/maps/place/Pi...0x478ff014ba00b83d:0x742f99fa40c4eb10!6m1!1e1

https://map.geo.admin.ch/mobile.htm...mp=18641231,,,&X=204069.35&Y=662315.00&zoom=7


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## Wilhem275

Also a perfect example of Swiss connected transports. One can do a round trip Luzern Hbf. - Pilatus - Luzern Hbf. with trolleybus + 2 cableways + rack railway + train/boat.

It is quite uncommon to be able to do a round trip through such an inaccessible place!


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## davide84

That's giving me some ideas...


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## Wilhem275

...then from Luzern Hbf take an S3 to Arth-Goldau, go up the Rigi, back down on the other side to Vitznau, and get back to Luzern with a boat, possibly an old steamer in regular service...

I call it the "Luzern 8" (did it in one day ).


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=571560&nseq=20
Georg Trüb, March 31, 2016, between Sulgen and Erlen
_Test run of the new double deck Intercity train RABe 502 # 203 of Bombardier for the SBB, on the Thurtal line from Frauenfeld to Romanshorn, running along the pond at Riet near Erlen._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=572108&nseq=7
Georg Trüb, April 04, 2016, above Aigle
_Cogwheel train of the Transports Publiques du Chablais, line from Aigle to Leysin (former AL Aigle-Leysin), on a grade of 23.0 % above Aigle. Leading cab car Bt # 362 and railcar BDeh 4/4 312 (ACMV/SLM/BBC 1987). Cogwheel system Abt, 1500 V DC, 1 meter gauge, line length 6,3 kilometer, max. grade 23.0 %._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=571633&nseq=25
Georg Trüb, March 31, 2016, Winterthur
_Dual system (electric/diesel) locomotive Eem 923 # 018 with a local freight from Winterthur Grüze to Winterthur shunting yard, entering Winterthur._


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...relief-project-breaks-ground.html?channel=537
> 
> *Bern bottleneck relief project breaks ground*
> Monday, April 18, 2016
> 
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> _SWISS Federal Railways (SBB), together with the Swiss federal office for transport (BAV), the canton of Bern and Switzerland's second largest railway BLS, has broken ground on a SFr 270m ($US 279.8m) project to relieve a bottleneck between Wylerfeld and Wankdorf, east of Bern_
> 
> Dubbed "Unbundling Wylerfeld," the project will improve connections and punctuality for regional and long-distance services travelling in and out of Bern, and is due for completion in 2022
> 
> ...


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=571779&nseq=73
Georg Trüb, April 02, 2016, Ardez
_For about 10 years, members of association "Club 1889", founded in 1996, worked in Samedan on the 2-6-0 steam locomotive G 3/4 # 11 "Heidi", which was built by SLM in 1902. The club name was choosen after the year 1889, when the first passenger car, C 2012, which was rebuilt by the association, was built. The "Mogul" steamlocomotive got a new all welded boiler, new pistons, new valves, a new chimney, superheater, and was converted to burn light oil by DLM Winterthur. Some work was done by the RhB in Landquart, but most was done by skilled members of Club 1889 in Samedan. Now the "Heidi" is finished and like new. On April 2nd, she pulled a train from Samedan to Scuol-Tarasp and back for the workers of the Club 1889 and some guests. Several of the passengers were wearing contemporaneous clothes. Here, the train stopped in Ardez for some minutes. The locomotive is pulling the 5 two-axle cars: C 2012 (first rebuilt vehicle of Club 1889), baggage car F 4004, B 2138 "Filisurer-Stübli", B 2060 and freight car L 6603 (with additional oil and water)._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=572953&nseq=40
Georg Trüb, April 12, 2016, Bürglen
_"HVZ" (peak time) push pull train with 10 double deck cars and Re 420 in front and the rear. Train 19067 of the "S 23" service is running from Zürich to Romanshorn along the factory canal in Bürglen, pushed by Re 420 "LION" # 223 (rebuilt from Re 4/4 II # 11223 in 2013)_


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=572455&nseq=56
Georg Trüb, April 08, 2016, Luzern
_An interesting look at the early days of railway electrification. The locomotive Ge 2/4 # 207 of the Rhaetian Railway, built in 1913 for the new and from the beginning electrified (11'000 V AC, 16.7 Hz) line Bever-Scuol, was powered by a huge Déri repulsion motor, driving the two coupled axles directly via a rod, without any gear. This engine was developed by the Hungarian engineer Miksa Déri . The detached sidewall of the body allows a beautiful view of this drive technology. The Ge 2/4 # 207 was built as the last of a series (201-207) by SLM and BBC, was in use until 1974 and exhibited in the Swiss Museum of Transport in Lucerne since 1982. _

From Wikipedia: A repulsion motor is a type of electric motor for use on alternating current (AC). It was formerly used as a traction motor for electric trains but has been superseded by other types of motors. Repulsion motors are classified under single phase motors. In repulsion motors the stator windings are connected directly to the AC power supply and the rotor is connected to a commutator and brush assembly, similar to that of a direct current (DC) motor.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=440989&nseq=129
David Gubler, June 23, 2013, Salgesch
_The Salgesch - Sierre section of the Rhone valley line from Brig to Lausanne is one of the most scenic locations of that line. The train is a Brig - Geneva Interregio service, which run every half an hour._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=573144&nseq=29
Georg Trüb, April 14, 2016, Gland
_Re 420 # 506 of the MBC is the former BLS locomotive with same number, bought from the SBB in 2004 (Re 4/4 II # 11142). It came to the MBC in autumn 2013 for a new gravel traffic between the 1 meter gauge network of the MBC near Apples over the standard gauge Morges-Gland line of the SBB. Here the locmotive is in the siding in Gland with 7 empty gravel cars for personnel training._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=407812&nseq=155
David Gubler, April 09, 2009, Fribourg
_A Re 460 with an EW IV push-pull train is crossing the Grandfey viaduct over the Schiffenen lake.
The swans were a little more than a lucky coincidence - we had no bread to attract them, but assuming that they were used to humans throwing bread, we used little sticks instead, and they bought it, at least for some time._


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## Wilhem275

LOL, poor swans should sue Mr. Gubler for the trick


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## Suburbanist

Does SBB have a seismic protection plan in place w.r.t. these old rail viaducts?


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## suasion

Subduction of Europe under the italiian terrane stopped a number of years ago and what you see in the Alps is uplifted crystaline basement. Continued closure of the Tethy's ocean (Med basin is a puddle of it, see also Zagros, Hindu Kesh, Himalayays etc.) means penninsular Italy gets Earthquakes and Volcanoes as the African plate descends; but the Swiss would be as well comet proofing as seismic proofing. The continued pressure from th African plate also prevents orogenic collapse of the Alps.


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## hammersklavier

suasion said:


> Subduction of Europe under the italiian terrane stopped a number of years ago and what you see in the Alps is uplifted crystaline basement. Continued closure of the Tethy's ocean (Med basin is a puddle of it, see also Zagros, Hindu Kesh, Himalayays etc.) means penninsular Italy gets Earthquakes and Volcanoes as the African plate descends; but the Swiss would be as well comet proofing as seismic proofing. The continued pressure from th African plate also prevents orogenic collapse of the Alps.


To tell you the truth this comment worries me somewhat. When it comes to plate boundaries, a lack of activity usually means that friction inside the system is what's holding it together, and this friction works against plate movements. Eventually, the stresses incurred by plate movements overcome the frictional forces, and the result is a major earthquake.

There's also a subtle contradiction here. If the subduction of Europe under the Alps (actually, it's more accurate to say IIRC that the African plate is _overriding_ the Eurasian one; continental crust does not get subducted down to the mantle) has stopped, then shouldn't the closure of the Tethys Ocean have also stopped?

What we are seeing is more likely than not an intermission in geologic time, and the end of the intermission will occur when the frictional forces are overwhelmed ... i.e. a massive earthquake that starts the system moving again.


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## suasion

Europe did subduct under Italy as the Tethys ocean closed, Italy used to be an Island but is now well and truely sutured onto Eurasia, The Jura mountains are the foreland of this process, where sedimentary layers are folded but not metamorphised, Similar rocks would have sat over the Alps as the crust thickened; rocks which have eroded away, allowing the deeply buried crystaline rocks we see in todays Alps to rise up as the crust keeps isostatic equilibrium. this does not conflict with the fact that the African plate (not the continent) is still subducting under Europe (The volcanoes are always on the overriding plate). One should remember, coastlines do not mark the edges of the continents; and that plates contain both oceanic and continental crust. Of course islands cannot subduct but neither do they have to be part of a larger plate, there are many micro continents in the mix too, e.g. half of California was one and it still slides along the San andreas fault as it is not fully docked( Thankfully Italy is). Anyway as all the other sides of Africa border growing ocean basins (bound only with passive margins) there is no danger of the plate changing direction anytime soon, orogenic collapse is quite unlikely as long as compressional forces remain. 
Plate tectonics is a mindnumbingly slow process. Geologists consider the Himalays (which still grow) as young mountains because the are a mere 16 million years old, and their rise sudden and rapid. Engineering for future plate reconfigurations would IMO be taking futureproofing a little bit too far.


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## Suburbanist

What about historical powerful earthquakes in Switzerland 









source



> SED estimates that an earthquake with a magnitude of 6.5 to 7, like the Basel quake of 1356, will occur every 1,500 years. Such a quake would cause damage more than 100 kilometres from its centre. Several thousand deaths and tens of thousands of injuries would result. Property damage could run as high as CHF 50 to CHF 100 billion. According to SED, the most likely locations for such an event are the Alpine and Basel regions.


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## hammersklavier

suasion said:


> Europe did subduct under Italy as the Tethys ocean closed, Italy used to be an Island but is now well and truely sutured onto Eurasia, The Jura mountains are the foreland of this process, where sedimentary layers are folded but not metamorphised, Similar rocks would have sat over the Alps as the crust thickened; rocks which have eroded away, allowing the deeply buried crystaline rocks we see in todays Alps to rise up as the crust keeps isostatic equilibrium. this does not conflict with the fact that the African plate (not the continent) is still subducting under Europe (The volcanoes are always on the overriding plate). One should remember, coastlines do not mark the edges of the continents; and that plates contain both oceanic and continental crust. Of course islands cannot subduct but neither do they have to be part of a larger plate, there are many micro continents in the mix too, e.g. half of California was one and it still slides along the San andreas fault as it is not fully docked( Thankfully Italy is). Anyway as all the other sides of Africa border growing ocean basins (bound only with passive margins) there is no danger of the plate changing direction anytime soon, orogenic collapse is quite unlikely as long as compressional forces remain.
> Plate tectonics is a mindnumbingly slow process. Geologists consider the Himalays (which still grow) as young mountains because the are a mere 16 million years old, and their rise sudden and rapid.


While this post certainly made old Suburby doze off -- given his demonstrated (lack of) interest in or knowledge of geology -- it didn't make me.

Hmm as I recall, the Italic microplate is rotating counterclockwise about a fulcrum found more or less in Tuscany. This will obviously lead to the closure of the Adriatic basin. It also means the plate is moving independently of either the Eurasian (moving southeast) or African (moving northward) plates ... although one of its boundaries is the suture buried deep in the Alps.

In any event, Switzerland sits in the foreland of an active plate boundary. Eventually Italy will become some hills on an altiplano where the Mediterranean used-to-was (though not in our 10 x 10^10-great grandchildren's lifetimes). This means that Suburbanist's leading concern -- seismic retrofitting -- is a valid concern, as earthquakes can and will continue to happen in the region for the foreseeable future.

Incidentally, the thought just occurred to me: Continental crust floats on the asthenosphere the same way* as a wooden raft floats on water; oceanic crust the same way as an iron hull floats on water. This is why oceanic crust starts sinking towards the core when it's subducted -- have you seen pictures of the former Farallon plate? It's so cool! -- while continental collisions essentially turn into giant logjams.


> Engineering for future plate reconfigurations would IMO be taking futureproofing a little bit too far.


If we futureproofed that far ahead, we'd all have to live on the Canadian, South African, Australian, or Siberian cratons. 
_______________
* Obviously it doesn't.


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## suasion

Basel earthquake 1356 lol. This was most likely related to the continued opening of the Rhine-graben, are you suggesting France and Germany should also earthquake proof? along the same Graben, you also have other areas like the Eiffel hot spot which may or may not cause a quake. The fact is an intraplate Earthquake could occur anywhere or nowhere, but they are of such low likeli.hood that as i said you would be as wise to invest in comet proofing.



> Hmm as I recall, the Italic microplate is rotating counterclockwise about a fulcrum found more or less in Tuscany. This will obviously lead to the closure of the Adriatic basin. It also means the plate is moving independently of either the Eurasian (moving southeast) or African (moving northward) plates ... although one of its boundaries is the suture buried deep in the Alps.


 You are correct, but it as well to remember all the idea of a large rigid plate is just a simplisation; the large plates are all made up of numerous microplates or blocks that tend to rotate or slide to accommodate the movements and forces of the larger plate. But the serious earthquakes are focused (though not exclusive to) Subduction zones, shallow focus near the trench, deeper and less dangerous as you move towards and past the volcanic arc;and Orogonic zones, which can be very shallow focus. Iran, Pakistan, India, Nepal etc have had some devastating ones in recent memory. Even ancient African cratons have been remobilized by the rift valley, in fact the whole centre of the continent is tending to well up under all the compressional forces.


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## hammersklavier

suasion said:


> Basel earthquake 1356 lol. This was most likely related to the continued opening of the Rhine-graben, are you suggesting France and Germany should also earthquake proof? along the same Graben, you also have other areas like the Eiffel hot spot which may or may not cause a quake. The fact is an intraplate Earthquake could occur anywhere or nowhere, but they are of such low likeli.hood that as i said you would be as wise to invest in comet proofing.


But that's the heart of the question -- it isn't just major quakes in the historical record. Is Switzerland affected by enough major quakes for mitigation to be important? It does sit in the shadow of an active orogen, which suggests it gets enough quakes for it to be at least worth considering. After all, Switzerland _is_ in just as active an orogenic zone as e.g. Nepal.


> You are correct, but it as well to remember all the idea of a large rigid plate is just a simplisation; the large plates are all made up of numerous microplates or blocks that tend to rotate or slide to accommodate the movements and forces of the larger plate. But the serious earthquakes are focused (though not exclusive to) Subduction zones, shallow focus near the trench, deeper and less dangerous as you move towards and past the volcanic arc;and Orogonic zones, which can be very shallow focus. Iran, Pakistan, India, Nepal etc have had some devastating ones in recent memory. Even ancient African cratons have been remobilized by the rift valley, in fact the whole centre of the continent is tending to well up under all the compressional forces.


Something that puzzles me is the Great Appalachian Valley -- a low valley extending the length of the range, and separating the crystalline Appalachians to the east from the folded ridges to the west. I know it marks a suture between terranes, as the crystalline ridges are much older and considered part of Avalonia, but for the life of me I have no idea how a deep valley along the suture came to be. I mean, yes, all that's left is the core of a Triassic orogeny ... but I still don't get why the suture itself would take the form of a long, low valley?


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=575738&nseq=21
Georg Trüb, May 07, 2016, between Feuerthalen and Schaffhausen
_"Crocodile" Be 6/8 III # 13302 "flying" over the Rhine between Feuerthalen and Schaffhausen, pulling the Swiss Classic Train from Arbon via Romanshorn-Kreuzlingen-Stein am Rhein to Winterthur. The iconic vehicle from 1926 is on loan to and operated by "Betriebsgruppe 13302" in Rapperswil._


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## IanCleverly

swissinfo.ch said:


> More long-distance bus companies are operating on European routes. They are a serious competitor to trains.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> In one example, a bus company providing direct connections between Zurich and Munich in Germany charges CHF18-48. For the same route, a full-fare train ticket costs CHF92 for a trip that takes 30 minutes longer.


As it's a video report, and as I'm unsure as to whether the code provided on the link there would work, you'll want to Click here to watch said piece.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=575932&nseq=0
Georg Trüb, May 05, 2016, above Faulensee
_Re 460 # 032 is pushing Eurocity 7 Hamburg Altona - Interlaken Ost along the Thunersee above Faulensee near Spiez._


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## Wilhem275

I have a question about the new Zurich underground rail link (DML).
I read some parts of it are built with a 4% grade, while some other sources report a 3,7% (while TSI standards suggest a 3,5 max).

It is supposed to serve all kind of trains (S-RE-IC), but some reported there was a performance problem with Re 460 hauled trains.
Does anyone please have more detailed info about this issue?
(English, Italian, German is all fine)


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=577393
Georg Trüb, May 20, 2016, between Wildegg and Holderbank
_Bombardier "Twindexx" or "FV-Dosto" (double deck long distance train) RABe 502 # 203 on a transfer run between Wildegg and Holderbank._


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## Coccodrillo

1) The new stations would be in Guttannen (a hamlet with just 300 inhabitants) and Handegg/Handeck (double spelling, no village at all, just a tourist destination).

http://www.grimselbahn.ch/
http://www.grimseltunnel.ch/
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=130500551&postcount=2352
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=130614988&postcount=2356

In some maps in the first site they show the Zweisimmen-Interlaken line as narrow gauge, as said it is not, these maps are wrong. Just like the claims that it would be the longest narrow gauge network in the world.

2) If the gauge changing system works, then there will be no need to regauge the line. If it doesn't, they will likely decide that it is much cheaper to maintain the transhipment in Zweisimmen.

3) No, too much distance, too low potential traffic.

4) Yes, it would negate the idea, I'm puzzled but the problem of the too fast change in altitude is real (especially if after having climbed quickly you start immediately to do sports, but that's not the case for most tourists).
More infos:
http://www.jungfrau.ch/tourismus/news-events/v-bahn/das-projekt-v-bahn/
http://www.jungfrau.ch/uploads/media/V-Bahn_Projekt_Informationen_und_Vorteile.pdf

5a) It would be hard. From St. Moritz to Maloja village there are 15 km but all virtually flat (just 50 m altitude difference), from Maloja to Chiavenna there are 25 km with a difference of 1500 m! So a line would either have to loose elevation starting from Maloja using long spiral tunnels, or start descending directly from St. Moritz, but this would mean an expensive and long tunnel, with little tourist interest and useless for local traffic (as stations inside the tunnel would have to be hundreds of meters below ground).

5b) IMHO one to Mals im Vinschgau/Malles Venosta. Südtirol is investing a lot in public transport (compared to its size), while Austria recently is closing railways everywhere. There are many proposals for that, either Scuol-Mals avoiding the Val Müstair, or a Zernez-Val Müstair-Mals. The second would be more likely as it would serve a remote valley of Switzerland.


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## BlackArt-ist

Coccodrillo said:


> 5b) IMHO one to Mals im Vinschgau/Malles Venosta. Südtirol is investing a lot in public transport (compared to its size), while Austria recently is closing railways everywhere. There are many proposals for that, either Scuol-Mals avoiding the Val Müstair, or a Zernez-Val Müstair-Mals. The second would be more likely as it would serve a remote valley of Switzerland.


Is linking Grisons and South Tyrol such a big deal? Both are far from being significant population pools. From what I experienced, it is essentially a local line for the moment (most trains end at Merano), a tunnel under the Sesvenna range would completely change its nature if ever done.


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## Coccodrillo

Traffic on that line would be low, and I doubt to see it in my lifetime. But it is the less improbable of the RhB extension projects IMHO (except the short extension for skiers in St. Moritz). Even the Grimsel tunnel has a bit more chanches.


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## IanCleverly

(Filmed at Windisch, NW of Zürich)


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/577506/
Georg Trüb, May 21, 2016, between Gurtnellen and Wassen
_An 8 car steam train with 358 tons is pulled over the 2.6 % grade of the Gotthard north ramp by A 3/5 # 705 (4-6-0, SLM 1904) and C 5/6 # 2978 (2-10-0, SLM 1917). The train left Muhren tunnel shortly and crossed the Häggrigerbach bridge between Gurtnellen and Pfaffensprung. Above the train you see a concrete avalanche guide wall._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/577645/
Georg Trüb, May 20, 2016, between Zwingen and Grellingen
_Intercity tilting train RABDe 500 # 021 "Jeremias Gotthelf" is running as ICN 1616 Basel - Biel through the Laufental, in the Chessiloch between Grellingen and Zwingen_


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## nitramwin

Thanks for sharing this nice video


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/579925/
Georg Trüb, May 25, 2016, Kleine Scheidegg
_Double cogwheel railcars BDhe 4/8 # 212 and 211 of the Jungfraubahn heading to the Jungfraujoch, Top of Europe (Europe's highest-altitude railway station 3454 meters above sea level), which can be seen in the left upper corner of the picture. In the middle is the Jungfrau peak, on the right the Silberhorn (the white pyramid)._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/554368/
Jean-Marc Frybourg, March 21, 2015, Sisikon
_A red Re 4/4 II and a green Re 6/6 on a northbound multimodal train coming from the Gotthard._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/515317/
David Gubler, May 21, 2010, Saanenmöser
_Much of MOB's rolling stock already got the not-so-great (watch out for euphemisms) gold/white livery, but with a bit of luck some completely beige/blue trains could still be found. This one is climbing the grade from Zweisimmen to Saanenmöser. _


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/581730/
Georg Trüb, June 27, 2016, between St.Gallen Haggen and Gübsensee
_The Voralpen Express (VAE) 2584 of the Südostbahn seems very small on the highest railway bridge of Switzerland, the 99 meter high and 365 meter long huge Sitter viaduct of the former Bodensee-Toggenburg Bahn. The viaduct with a half parabola girder was erected in 1910, when the line from St.Gallen to Wattwil was built, and has a main span of 120 meter and the line has a grade of 1.6 %. The Voralpen Express is a push pull train with railcars RBDe 561 # 082 and 083 and 6 intermediate cars, all in a special paint scheme. Below the bridge is the Kubel hydroelectric power station and the 22 meter long wooden bridge over the Sitter from 1800._


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## davide84

00Zy99 said:


> 5) Are there any thoughts about extending past Scuol-Tarasp down the Engadine to Landeck as was originally planned? There probably isn't anything planned up over Maloja Pass to Chiavenna, but it would certainly be nice.


I agree on the reply Coccodrillo already gave. But I would like to share a couple of documents from around 1 century ago - they are mostly in Italian, sorry:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ueobewtayfgd42e/AABwTNiaGkoWKl3xWE3eLinea?dl=0


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/582612/
Georg Trüb, July 04, 2016, near Fallboden
_Brand new articulated, partly lowfloor cogwheel train Bhe 4/8 # 223 from Stadler Rail, not in service yet, but making brake test runs between Kleine Scheidegg and Eigergletscher. The Jungfraubahn gets 4 of this new trains, which will replace the classic BDhe 2/4-Bt push pull trains from the 1950' and 1960'. The new trains have 182 seats, 1200 kW and can run up to 28 km/h on the maximum grade when going up (17,5 km/h running downgrade). The gauge is 1 meter, cogwheel system Strub, triphase 1125 V 50 Hz. In the background are Lauberhorn and Tschuggen peaks._


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## 00Zy99

davide84 said:


> I agree on the reply Coccodrillo already gave. But I would like to share a couple of documents from around 1 century ago - they are mostly in Italian, sorry:
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ueobewtayfgd42e/AABwTNiaGkoWKl3xWE3eLinea?dl=0


Could someone who speaks Italian briefly summarize these, please?


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## davide84

They are preliminary studies for the construction of a railway line between Chiavenna and St. Moritz. You can scroll the documents to see some maps, the rest is mostly historical and political introduction, and then numbers regarding proposed distances, travel times, costs, number of bridges etc.

They date back to more than a century ago and of course we know that the line was never built. Chiavenna station layout was designed to be an intermediate stop, but that's it...


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/582548/
Georg Trüb, July 04, 2016, near Fallboden
_Push pull cogwheel train of the Jungfraubahn with railcar BDhe 2/4 # 206 and cab car Bt # 30, both built in 1961 by SLM, BBC and SWS at Fallboden, between Kleine Scheidegg and Eigergletscher, with the world famous Eiger and his awesome north face in the background. _


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/582324/
Georg Trüb, July 10, 2016, between Schachen and Degersheim
_"Round the Säntis" charter trip of RAe 4/8 # 1021 "Churchill-Pfeil" (Churchill Arrow) is crossing the 282 meter long Weissenbach viaduct on the former Bodensee-Toggenburg Bahn (now Südostbahn) line from St.Gallen to Wattwil. The 56 meter high viaduct was built in 1910._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/580874/
Richard Behrbohm, June 23, 2016, Neuhausen am Rheinfall
_HVZ-D train (doubledeck train for peak hours) as S33 service Winterthur - Schaffhausen is crossing the bridge. At the moment, a lot of water is falling down the Rhine Falls (total height 23 m / 75 ft)._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/583477/
Georg Trüb, July 18, 2016, Wassen
_Re 6/6 # 11663 "Eglisau" and a Re 4/4 II are pulling a heavy southbound freight through the 300 meter radius Wattinger curve near Wassen, passing the former linesman hut "23 as" (now a weekend cottage). On the freeway A2 the holiday traffic is jamming._


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## Wilhem275

A2 is not a freeway, they ask good money for it!


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/580609/
Georg Trüb, June 20, 2016, Montbovon
_New train of the TPF (transports publics fribourgeois) with railcars ABe 2/4 and Be 2/4 # 106 and intermediate car (with publicity paint scheme for GESA), street running through Montbovon around the corner of the former "Hotel de Jaman"._


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## ipmetrix

add some pics about the trains please anyone


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/583631/
Georg Trüb, July 20, 2016, Wassen
_The last green Re 4/4 II of the passenger division, # 11161, is pulling the Interregio 2328 from Locarno to Basel, with two older reinforcement cars in front, on the middle level of the loops at Wassen, with the baroque church and the Chli Windgällen mountain in the background._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/581728/
Georg Trüb, June 27, 2016, St. Gallen Bruggen
_Doubledeck train RABe 511 # 024 is running as RegioExpress 4976 from Chur to Wil (SG) and crossing the 190 meter long and 63 meter high Sitter viaduct from 1924 between St. Gallen Bruggen and St. Gallen Winkeln. _


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## mwinyi

Took a train from Zurich to Liechtenstein and got off at this place called Sargaans..the view that I saw during the trip was heaven on earth. Too bad didn't take any pictures


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## steple

^^ That's the line along the Walensee, you were probably riding a Railjet like this one:










http://www.railpictures.net/photo/531296/
Georg Trüb, May 18, 2015, between Walenstadt and Unterterzen
_RailJet # 162 Wien Westbahnhof-Zürich with leading cab car # 715 and locomotive 1116 shoving in the rear is running along the Walensee near Mols._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/582148/
Georg Trüb, July 04, 2016, Wilderswil
_1 meter gauge adhesion/cogwheel railcar ABeh 4/4 # 306 "Lütschental" of the BOB with train 149 from Interlaken Ost to Zweilütschinen, from where this front part of the train will head for Lauterbrunnen. The rear part of this long train, pulled by railcar ABeh 4/4 # 304 "Bern", will run to Grindelwald. Both railcars were built in 1965 by SIG, SLM and BBC._


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## Coccodrillo

Note that the track in the foreground is not for crossings, as it is the 800 mm SPB line ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schynige_Platte_railway ). The two lines run parallel for a short section but are obviously independent.


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## 00Zy99

They _do_, however, share common catenary poles.


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## steple

^^










http://www.railpictures.net/photo/582145/
Georg Trüb, July 04, 2016, Wilderswil
_Cogwheel train of the Schynige Platte Bahn (SPB, part of the Berner Oberland Bahnen BOB) on 800 mm gauge track, with open passenger cars B # 3 and 7 and locomotive He 2/2 # 11 at Wilderswil. The 16 ton locomotive with 220 kW was built in 1914 by SLM and BBC. Car # 3 dates from 1893 and was built by Von Roll, car # 7 is from 1924 and built by SIG._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/585219/
David Gubler, August 07, 2016, Davos Wiesen
_Finally! It took three visits to this place and 10 trains to get this one right, with nice sunlight, the proper train and timing... An ABe 8/12 "Allegra" unit carries hikers and bikers from Filisur to Davos, and catches a glimpse of daylight as it emerges from the Wiesen I tunnel and crosses the small Bärentritt bridge, only to enter the Bärentritt tunnel right after that.

Lying there on my belly and letting the camera hang down to get a mostly branch-free shot onto the scene earned me some strange looks, and I had to explain to a pair of hikers that I'm not trying to kill myself, just waiting for a train _


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## StuZealand

"A 27-year-old Swiss man attacked several passengers on a train in canton St. Gallen on Saturday, the Swiss News Agency has reported. He was thought to have used a knife and set a flammable liquid on fire, injuring at least one of the passengers severely. 
According to a report from Swiss public radio, SRF, six people were injured: a 17-year-old and a 50-year-old man, three women aged 17, 34 and 43, and a 6-year-old child. The attacker was apparently injured as well.
Numerous ambulances and Rega helicopters were on the scene and have taken the injured to the hospital, said a spokesman for the police. 
The attack occurred shortly before the Salez station on the route between Buchs and Sennwald, the police reported."

In general, what kind of security is there on the Swiss rail network?


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## Coccodrillo

Security is high, such events are rare. People doing such actions might be everywhere, so it is not possible to prevent them. Still, if you consider that SBB carries around 1 million people a day (number of trips, going back and forth = 2 trips), and many more people travel by other public transport vehicles, the chance of being involved in such accident is very low. And violent crimes on board PT vehicles in Switzerland are rare.

The man in question tried to put fire on the train (likely a SOB Flirt), amd caused at least 100.000 CHF of damages. He and a woman subsequently died. A 17 year old girl is also at heavy risk. It is still not known why he did that, however police tends to exclude terrorism. He had no criminal records, something that make more msiterious the motive of the attack and also make more impredictable such events.

Apparently the news has been interpreted as a possible terrorist attack by foreign medias (as cited at the end of http://www.cdt.ch/svizzera/cronaca/161117/l-attacco-al-treno-fa-due-morti), but again, it seems not to be terrorism (i.e. someone affilated to some organization who want to kill as much people as possible because of political reasons, or to obtain some poltiical target). Some sources even say that the murder and the victim knew each other, which might mean it was a degenerated "normal" homicide (i.e. someone who wants to kill somebody for a precise reason), but there is still confusion about that.


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## M-NL

StuZealand said:


> In general, what kind of security is there on the Swiss rail network?





Coccodrillo said:


> Security is high, such events are rare.


All train stations throughout Europe are basically public spaces anyone with a valid ticket can enter without explicit security checks. The level of security in a station or on a train is thus comparable to any other public space, maybe even slightly higher, because of the presence of railway staff and security personnel. And of course on major hubs and airport railway stations you'll see more security personnel.

Notable exceptions are Eurostar and Spanish AVE, that both have airport style security checks.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/586159/
Georg Trüb, August 11, 2016, Spinas
_View onto the construction site for the new Albula tunnel II in Spinas. The new single bore tunnel will be built parallel to the existing, 5864 meters long tunnel opened in 1903. When the new tunnel will be finished in 2021, the old one will be converted to a security tunnel. You can see the existing station building of Spinas on the left of the two tracks and the portal of Albula tunnel (I) behind. The "Albula-Sprinter" with locomotives Ge 4/4 I # 605 and 602 in the rear just arrived from Preda on the north side of the tunnel and is ready for loading in the especially built siding tracks._











http://www.railpictures.net/photo/586140/
Georg Trüb, August 11, 2016, Spinas
_The so called "Albula-Sprinter" train of the RhB with locomotives Ge 4/4 I # 605 "Silvretta" and the 69 years old # 602 "Bernina" in the rear, 4 freight cars Fau of the 8761 to 8770 series and leading auxiliary cab car Xa 99801 (former passenger car B 2306 built in 1940). With this train, excavation material from the new Albula tunnel II is transported from Spinas to Preda. There is no possibility to remote control the locomotives from the car Xa 99801. A crew member sitting in the front, with radio communication to the driver, could stop the train in a case of emergeny by the vacuum brake. The train is entering Spinas, coming through the "old" Albula tunnel opened in 1903._


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## Wilhem275

Is the new tunnel designed for double track? Doesn't look like that from pictures.

EDIT: found, it's single track.
https://www.rhb.ch/en/company/proje...g-of-the-albula-tunnel/rebuilding/the-project


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## StuZealand

What's the intended purpose of the new tunnel? Simply better clearance for containers?


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## Wilhem275

> An examination of the state the 110-year-old Albula Tunnel, carried out in 2006, revealed an urgent need for general refurbishment and modernised safety features. The* inner walls of more than half of the 5,864 metre-long tunnel are in a bad state, and require replacement*. After a detailed examination of the two alternatives of repairing or rebuilding, the RhB decided, in 2010, on the latter. The clinching arguments in this respect were the relatively minor difference in cost, the lack of relevant disruption to timetabling during the construction phase and the considerably improved safety offered by a rebuild. The rebuild also guarantees high quality and advantages with respect to sustainability.


(link above)

It's strange to me that they didn't go for a 2-tracks tunnel, providing much more timetable flexibility; but surely they had their reasons.


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## earthJoker

Wilhem275 said:


> (link above)
> 
> It's strange to me that they didn't go for a 2-tracks tunnel, providing much more timetable flexibility; but surely they had their reasons.


I see no reason against repairing the old tunnel if a double track is necessary any time later.


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## K_

earthJoker said:


> I see no reason against repairing the old tunnel if a double track is necessary any time later.


Exactly. But like all railways in Switzerland the RhB probably already has a pretty good idea what schedule they will be running in 2035, and they probably don't foresee a need for a second track in that section.'


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## earthJoker

Which is a pity considering the mega cities in the Engadin it serves


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## Sunfuns

I'd expect very little if any growth on that route in the coming decades. It's not a major transit route, tourism traffic is probably close to being maxed out and Graubunden doesn't have a rapidly increasing population like certain other parts of the country.


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## Wilhem275

This is why I talked about flexibility and not capacity  Since it's a 6 km of single section, it can be quite useful to have a double track to make up for delays or program the timetable around a long passing loop.

It would be almost meaningless as a way to add capacity to the whole line, since all the rest of the line to Filisur has to live with the costraints of 10+ km sections with a single track.

But meanwhile between Bever and Samedan there's still just one track, so they probably don't see this anywhere close to being a priority.


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## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> I'd expect very little if any growth on that route in the coming decades. It's not a major transit route, tourism traffic is probably close to being maxed out and Graubunden doesn't have a rapidly increasing population like certain other parts of the country.


They need a plan to develop the valleys there and increase the canton population 50% in 15 years.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/586164/
Georg Trüb, August 13, 2016, Gletsch
_The Diesel train 241 of the Dampfbahn Furka Bergstrecke (DFB) from Gletsch to Oberwald is pulled by HGm 4/4 # 62 of the Matterhorn-Gotthard Bahn (MGB), leased by the DFB. The train is ready to run down to Oberwald, while steam locomotive HG 2/3 # 6 is waiting to go around her train. The cars of the new formed diesel train are: baggage car D # 4542 former MGB, with a flange and rack track grease installation, the former MGB passenger cars B # 4267 and B # 4272 and the open observation car C # 2353._


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## Coccodrillo

There is a serious plan to build a second track between Samedan and Bever.

Traffic from north of Chur to St Moritz also pass via the Vereina tunnel. In fact the timetable is built that there is an hourly Zürich-St Moritz conenction via the Albula line and a two-hourly connection via the Vereina line. The plan is to have also the latter hourly, so to have overall a train every ~30' with roughly the same travel time from Zürich.

As said, there is still the possibility to rebuild the old tunnel to have a second track. However, damaged sections of the old tunnel will likely be repaired without caring to keep a loading gauge compatible with trains, so to reopen it to trains would need more work that just laying again a track.



Suburbanist said:


> They need a plan to develop the valleys there and increase the canton population 50% in 15 years.


The go there and search for a wife...

(I would just be a bit worried to have many little Subs giving odd advices on things they do not know...)


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## Suburbanist

I meant people moving from the rest of Switzerland there, imagine if Klosters or Davos were just 100-110min away from Zuerich...


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## Suburbanist

How are plans from SBB to implement other forms of ticketing? There was all this talk of using NFC on mobile gadgets instead of going for totems or electronic validators...


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## alphorn

Suburbanist said:


> How are plans from SBB to implement other forms of ticketing? There was all this talk of using NFC on mobile gadgets instead of going for totems or electronic validators...


Not very well. The canton of Zug has withdrawn its support of a pilot of the bibo-project (be-in-be-out, meaning automatic detection of riders) at the end of 2014. Yet SBB still wants to implement the system by 2025 at the latest. One of the problems that still need solving are the restrictions on data collection. Technical challenges are to be expected; let's not forget this would be the first such installation worldwide, to my knowledge.

I would expect there will still be significant push towards this system because swiss wages are high and one could reduce or eliminate conductors. There's already 300m long double decker local trains with a total personnel of one - the train driver - stopping at stations without any personnel at all.


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## alphorn

Wilhem275 said:


> (link above)
> 
> It's strange to me that they didn't go for a 2-tracks tunnel, providing much more timetable flexibility; but surely they had their reasons.


As K_ already pointed out: In Switzerland, long term target timetables are designed first and only then the necessary infrastructure is built. If there are no planned train crossings in the Albulatunnel area, there is not point to building an expensive double track there. And it would definitely be expensive to bring the old Albulatunnel to current standards, the article quoted here mentioned that it would cost nearly as much as a new tunnel.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/580541/
Georg Trüb, June 20, 2016, between Schönried and Gruben
_Double railcar ABDe 8/8 # 4003 "Bern" from 1968 (SIG, BBC and SAAS) is pulling regional train 2213 from Zweisimmen to Montreux._


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## K_

Wilhem275 said:


> >.. it can be quite useful to have a double track to make up for delays or program the timetable around a long passing loop.
> .


But that is my point. In Switzerland you don't program the timetable around passing loops. You program the passing loops around the timetable. 

Having a long passing loop, such that trains can cross without slowing down is useful. Which is why RhB built such a long passing loop northwards from Preda...


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> I meant people moving from the rest of Switzerland there, imagine if Klosters or Davos were just 100-110min away from Zuerich...


I think this idea is called an "Alptraum" in the local vernacular.


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## Sunfuns

K_ said:


> I think this idea is called an "Alptraum" in the local vernacular.


:lol:


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## 00Zy99

K_ said:


> I think this idea is called an "Alptraum" in the local vernacular.


If you could please explain what "Alptraum" means, I would appreciate it.



Sunfuns said:


> :lol:


If its a joke, I'm not getting it.


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## K_

00Zy99 said:


> If you could please explain what "Alptraum" means, I would appreciate it.


Apltraum could be understood as "Alpine Dream", but it is in fact the German word for "Nightmare".

This was in response to a remark from Suburbanist. He thinks making St. Moritz a suburb of Zürich would be a good idea. I believe that most of the inhabitants of St. Moritz would consider it a nightmare...


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## 00Zy99

Ah, thanks.

It would certainly require very careful zoning in order to ensure that the atmosphere isn't ruined. I think it could be done, though.


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## kubiq

I would love to travel with one of this trains. Especially in the surrounding of such a beautiful views!


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/584891/
Urs Diener, August 04, 2016, Umiken
_Standard coaches type I push-pull train with the leading cab car BDt 50 85 82-33 923-2 and the pushing Re 4/4 II 11131 on the way from Basel SBB to Zürich Airport._


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## rower2000

Suburbanist said:


> Do these "Bernina Crocodile" also have longitudinally flexible sections?


Judging from the pictures, I would think so.

As an additional remark, those locos are not designated Ge 4/4 but Ge 6/6.


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## steple

^^ Actually no. First of all, there is only one unit of Bernina Crocodile built 1928, the * Ge 4/4 No. 182*, former No. 82. This 1000 V DC locomotive has no articulated design. See the wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernina-Bahngesellschaft_Ge_4/4_82


> Less formally, the locomotive is nicknamed the Bernina Crocodile, due to its external similarity to the Crocodile locomotives of Rhaetian Railway type Ge 6/6 I, and Swiss Federal Railways types Ce 6/8 I and Ce 6/8 II. However, the Ge 4/4 182 is not an articulated locomotive, and therefore the Crocodile nickname is not entirely accepted as appropriate for it.


A closer picture of the loco:










http://www.railpictures.net/photo/592961/
Georg Trüb, October 15, 2016, Alp Grüm
_The clock at the station building of Alp Grüm shows five minutes to 10 pm. Under the stars of the night sky the special train of the Rhaetian Railway with the "Bernina Crocodile" Ge 4/4 # 182 and open observation cars, is standing on track one for the return trip to Pontresina and St. Moritz, illuminated by the full moon. The passengers are enjoying the famous glacier fondue, a speciality made of hot swiss cheese in the station restaurant. 

Ge 4/4 182 is operational again after 30 years out of service. After some years exil in France, standing inoperational outside in the weather, the locomotive was brought back to Switzerland in 1999 and after 11 years of work in Pontresina and Poschiavo, mostly by volunteers, it is now operational again._










http://www.railpictures.net/photo/406872/
Axel Bozier, August 19, 2012, between Bernina Lagalp and Ospizio Bernina
_On this beautiful sunday morning, the unique "Bernina Pullmanzug" of this year, pulled by the Ge 4/4 182 known as Bernina Crocodile is the first train of the day heading to Tirano. It is seen near the small black lake "Lej Nair" shortly after 8 am._

_________________


There is however another type of Crocodile locomotives owned by the RhB: The class *Ge 6/6 I*, used on the main 11 kV 16.7 Hz AC network. 15 units of this type have been built 1921–1929. These are actually articulated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhaetian_Railway_Ge_6/6_I


> Due to their shape - they are similar in form to the SBB-CFF-FFS Crocodiles of the Gotthard Railway - the Ge 6/6 I locomotives have also collectively been nicknamed the Rhaetian Crocodiles by rail fans. Their internal working RhB designation is C-C. As with its standard-gauge counterpart, the Ge 6/6 I is articulated, with a gear-driven Jackshaft between the two end axles of each unit, connected to the drive wheels by side rods.












http://www.railpictures.net/photo/593018/
Georg Trüb, October 16, 2016, near Bever
_"Rhaetian Crocodile" Ge 6/6 I # 415 with the ENGADIN EXPRESS 2170 from Samedan to Chur in the Bever valley on the occasion of the tremendous event for 20 years "Club 1889"._










http://www.railpictures.net/photo/293472/
Jean-Marc Frybourg, July 1989, Val Bever
_At the time, this was a regular mixed passenger and freight train and what looks like a preserved historic engine was the standard power. Of course, it was a bit more "preserved" and historically accurate than "standard". This is the Swiss way: a nice and smooth transition from the old to the new. Current harsh economic constraints have not so much changed that spirit, thanks to numerous preservation entities like the "SBB Historic" organization, and the goodwill of many stakeholders._


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## stingstingsting

^^

Is the one currently parked outside Berguen / Bravuogn station a Ge 6/6? I was staying in the Grischuna Hotel at Filisur station recently, looking out the window and thinking to myself wouldn't that articulated locomotive be an even more spectacular sight to see running around the curves? Most (or all?) of the regular trains on the RhB seem to be red and white so a bit of brown loco (and green carriages!) running regularly would be an added bonus too. Heck, go ahead and paint it red and white too if you have to 

Since they're not steam locomotives, I expect that maintenance and wear and tear for the RhB Krokodils would not be nearly as taxing. Would it be so uneconomical to run these Krokodils on regular services too instead of the Allegra EMUs and the newer locomotives? Spare parts would be a challenge but I'm sure there would be quite a demand from people who would love to see them run on regular services.


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## kokomo

Awesome pictures :drool:


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## steple

stingstingsting said:


> ^^
> 
> Is the one currently parked outside Berguen / Bravuogn station a Ge 6/6?


Yes, that's Ge 6/6 I No. 407. It is parked in Bergün since 1994, so I doubt it still works...

There are however still the locos 414 and 415 which are operational and are indeed used on a regular basis: In the Albula Experience train, each Sunday from 4th June to 3rd September next year. It's worth it!

Check the RhB website:
https://www.rhb.ch/en/world-of-railway-experiences/railway-experiences/albula-experience-train#overview


> _Each Sunday from 04.06.2017 to 03.09.2017, you can travel in the nostalgic wooden coaches and open scenic carriages from Landquart to Samedan, right through the heart of the UNESCO World Heritage site, a railway paradise.
> 
> The cult Crocodile locomotive will transport families and railway fans to the Albula Valley. You will travel through the Domleschg, valley of many castles, over the Solis and Landwasser viaducts and through the helical tunnels between Preda and Bergün in the open carriage or vintage wooden coaches.
> 
> It's worth making a stopover in Bergün: The Albula Railway Museum takes railway fans on a journey into the past. A simulator lets visitors drive the legendary Crocodile locomotive along the Albula Line themselves. Railway enthusiasts and families will be fascinated by the old stamps, films and models. At the Railway Museum and along the Railway Adventure Trail between Preda, Bergün and Filisur, you can find out more about the Albula/Bernina UNESCO World Heritage route and its engineering structures.
> 
> Tip: The railway line passes through Parc Ela. Explore Switzerland's biggest national park on foot.
> 
> In 2017, the Albula Experience train runs on the following dates:
> 
> *Each Sunday from 4 June to 3 September 2017 (except 1 August)*
> 
> Tip: From 03.10.2016 - 04.12.2016, historic saloon cars will be in operation in combination with the regional trains on the line Chur – St. Moritz. For just five or ten francs extra, you can take your seat in the special saloon cars dating back to the Belle Epoque._


And for the question why they are not used in scheduled passenger services anymore: 
With a top speed of 55 km/h they are just too slow to handle the timetable. Maintenance is quite expensive as well, mainly due to the side rod power transmission, but also due to their age of almost 100 years... 
The red and white trains are beautiful as well 










http://www.railpictures.net/photo/593186/
Georg Trüb, October 16, 2016, between Bernina Lagalb and Ospizio Bernina
_ABe 4/4 # 54 "Hakone" and # 53 "Tirano" with train 1629 from St. Moritz to Tirano on the shore of Lago Bianco, with 3246 meters high Piz Ot in the background._


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## stingstingsting

Thank you Steple! That is quite a regular service. Pity I missed out on it by a few weeks :/

Oh don't get me wrong. I adore the red and white trains very much too  And also the special-liveried Glacier Express trains!


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/593814/
Georg Trüb, October 24, 2016, Etzwilen
_Profile of the brand new doubledeck train of the SBB, built by Bombardier Transportation, RABe 502 # 404. This is one of the only 9 ordered four-car trains for Interregio service or as reinforcement unit for the eight-car IC and IR trains. The train is here for oscillation test runs (forced braking and acceleration in curves) between Etzwilen and Thalheim-Altikon, a single track line with low traffic and many curves of medium radius._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/593015/
Axel Bozier, October 16, 2016, Morteratsch
_"Montebello-Express" with the two yellow electric railcars ABe 4/4 I #34 from 1908 and #30 from 1911 with Piano-Bar car WR-S #3820 in the world-famous Montebello Curve on a gorgeous Fall Sunday! As a stunning background: the Morteratsch Glacier and the Bernina Range with Piz Bernina (4'049 m (13'284 ft)), its highest peak. _


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## GYN1997

i miss Swiss trains. I now live in London, trains here are worse than Swiss ones in all senses.


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## Vaud

GYN1997 said:


> i miss Swiss trains. I now live in London, trains here are worse than Swiss ones in all senses.


Agreed! The quality of the Swiss rail system is so much higher... Especially considering the difference in prices! trains in the UK are extraordinarily expensive compared to Swiss trains, and yet they manage to be really unreliable and cramped at all times. 

The best part is that for all the British have to say about the efficiency of private ownership, the CFF manage to have profits with lower prices and offering a higher quality in every respect...


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## stingstingsting

steple said:


> http://www.railpictures.net/photo/593015/
> Axel Bozier, October 16, 2016, Morteratsch
> _"Montebello-Express" with the two yellow electric railcars ABe 4/4 I #34 from 1908 and #30 from 1911 with Piano-Bar car WR-S #3820 in the world-famous Montebello Curve on a gorgeous Fall Sunday! As a stunning background: the Morteratsch Glacier and the Bernina Range with Piz Bernina (4'049 m (13'284 ft)), its highest peak. _


You know, I could wax lyrical about the Rhaetische Bahn and how I think it really is the most spectacular railway in the World in so many respects, but that would betray my personal bias... :lol:

My question though is about the track sleepers. They seem to be laid on the ballast in a sort of zig zag fashion. I have not noticed this before and so it seems very unique to me. What's the reason for this and am I right that this is rare? I am guessing that it has something to do with the curve in the track.

P.S. Seriously though if you're a trainlover, the RhB should be number one on your bucket list


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## steple

stingstingsting said:


> My question though is about the track sleepers. They seem to be laid on the ballast in a sort of zig zag fashion. I have not noticed this before and so it seems very unique to me. What's the reason for this and am I right that this is rare? I am guessing that it has something to do with the curve in the track.


These are called Y-sleepers. They are quite commonly used in curves with small radius, especially on narrow gauge railways. Check the wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_tie


> An unusual form of tie is the Y-shaped tie, first developed in 1983. Compared to conventional ties the volume of ballast required is reduced due to the load-spreading characteristics of the Y-tie. Noise levels are high but the resistance to track movement is very good. For curves the three-point contact of a Y steel tie means that an exact geometric fit cannot be observed with a fixed attachment point.
> 
> The cross section of the ties is an I-beam.


The advantages over conventional bar sleepers: a 50 % lower use of sleepers in the track, a higher track stability and a high cross-sliding resistance, enabling rail welding even in tight curves. In addition, they require less ballast due to better load spreading and the overall height of the structure can be reduced by about 10 cm, which is also useful in tunnels. Costs are certainly higher though, so they are only used in selected situations.

Some examples can be seen here, text is in German:
http://www.os.cd.cz/tudc/files/09_Strolz-a86acb4f5feb06b3cae87daea0611d08.pdf


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## AlexNL

The thing with British trains is that they never upgraded their network to more modern standards, and by the time they really had to do it it was far too late as they'd lose compatibility with the rest of their network.

The British loading gauge doesn't allow for double decker trains, the track layout requires shorter coaches (23 metres maximum) and many platforms aren't long enough for 12 car trains. This leads to all sorts of problems with overcrowding.


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## IanCleverly

Hello down there!


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/488423/
Jean-Marc Frybourg, June 26, 2014, Erstfeld
_This Re 4/4 is evolving right at the bottom of the north grade of the St Gotthard, with the yard in the background and the famous locomotive shed on the left. The catenary poles are a mix of older ones - like the pole #219 on the left - and more recent ones._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/593553/
Georg Trüb, October 22, 2016, between Amsteg-Silenen and Gurtnellen
_Re 460 # 041 with publicity paint scheme for the Red Cross is pulling Interregio 2421 Zürich-Locarno over the Secken viaduct on the Gotthard north ramp. This stone viaduct with 10 bows has the same appearance as when it was built around 1880, it only was widened for the second track about 1890._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/587913/
Axel Bozier, August 11, 2016, Gornergrat
_Climbing above the clouds! On a beautiful summer morning, the cogwheel railcar Bhe 4/8 3052 (built by SLM/ABB) together with a low-floor unit Bhe 4/6 (built by Stadler Rail) are seen shortly before arrival at the Gornergrat station (3'089 meters above sea level). The viewing platform on the peak of the Gornergrat offers breathtaking views over 29 four-thousand-meter peaks, with the world famous Matterhorn among them._


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## kokomo

You can never tire with Swiss landscapes and trains :drool:


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/455743/
David Gubler, October 18, 2013, Versam-Safien
_A Ge 4/4 II hauls a freight train from Landquart to Ilanz through the Rhine Gorge between Reichenau-Tamins and Ilanz._


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## nitramwin

*SBB Cargo to fit wagons with RFID tags*

Written by Anitra Green
Taken from http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/freight/sbb-cargo-to-fit-wagons-with-rfid-tags.html

SWISS rail freight operator SBB Cargo is equipping its entire fleet of freight wagons with RFID technology in a bid to meet future market demand.

The first series of 1000 general freight wagons will be fitted with two RFID tags each by the end of this year; in all about 5000 wagons will be equipped by the end of 2017.

With this move SBB Cargo is responding to customer demand. The new technology will enable customers to follow the progress of their wagons on the railway network and check their position in the train, as well as sending information about the time of arrival or departure as required. The aim is to generate new potential for improved logistics concepts and services.

This is just one of the projects launched by SBB Cargo, which is currently focusing on developments in three areas. Its Asset Intelligence project is exploring ways of applying new technology to railfreight wagons, with 150 wagons already in trial operation. A second project is devoted to modernising shunting and train formation operations to improve efficiency. Lastly, its Wayside Intelligence scheme is designed to identify and check the status of wagons passing certain points.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/593541/
David Gubler, October 22, 2016, Gruben
_A "Golden Pass Classic" train (with pseudo-historic passenger cars) climbs the grade from Gstaad to Schönried._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/551909/
Georg Trüb, October 25, 2015, below Brienzer Rothorn
_Light oil fired cogwheel steamlocomotive H 2/3 # 14 (built by SLM in 1996) of the Brienz-Rothorn-Bahn with a train with cars B 9 and B 3 (SIG) below the top of the Brienzer Rothorn. The train is going down, the steam comes from the Riggenbach counterpressure brake. This was the last day of the 2015 season!_


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-railways-order-stadler-emus.html?channel=529
> 
> *Swiss metre-gauge railways order Stadler EMUs*
> Friday, November 25, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _TWO Swiss metre-gauge railways have awarded Stadler Rail contracts with a total value of SFr 118m ($US 117m) to supply regional EMUs_
> 
> Rhaetian Railway (RhB) has exercised an option worth SFr 67.9m for nine additional Flügel EMUs, supplementing the initial order for 27 trains, which was placed in June. The federal government is providing 80% of the funding for the order, with the remaining 20% coming from the canton of Graubünden
> 
> ...


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/551434/
Georg Trüb, October 21, 2015, between Stablini and Cavaglia
_"Allegra" trainset ABe 8/12 # 3504 is pulling the Bernina Express 961 from Davos to Tirano through the Val Pila down a grade of 7.0 % on the southern ramp of the Bernina pass._


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## 00Zy99

Now that's a nice sight. Two new sets of equipment, both streamlined. It looks both futuristic and retro (in that you have a motor with trailers).


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/488030/
Jean-Marc Frybourg, June 27, 2014, Göschenen
_On the St Gotthard trail that closely follows the line and displays nice explanation panels about the history of the railroad, a familly watches a helper returning to Erstfeld after pushing a heavy freight train over the north grade. The helper is taking the crossover so as to run on the usual left hand track (closest one to the photographer). In the background, behind the engine, you can see a stone building. This is an electric sub-station that transforms high voltage current into 15kV 16.7Hz and feeds the catenary. It is a strong construction dating from the origin of the electrification in the 1920's._


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## steple

The new suburban railway station in Zürich Oerlikon was inaugurated last weekend. It was under construction in the past 7 years as part of the cross-city link project DML Zürich. Almost all lines from Zürich to the north-east and east of Switzerland pass through this very busy station.

The existing station was completely rebuilt and extended from 6 to 8 tracks to accommodate 110'000 passengers daily and 12 instead of 7 S-Bahn lines. It includes 28 shops, 800 parking lots for bicycles and barrier-free access to all platforms. Cost was about 600 million CHF.

Factsheet: http://www.sbb.ch/content/sbb/de/desktop/sbb-konzern/ueber-die-sbb/projekte/nationale-und-ueberregionale-projekte/projekte-zuerich-ostschweiz/dml/einschnitt-oerlikon/_jcr_content/contentPar/downloadlist_1304424840868/downloadList/factsheet.spooler.download.pdf

Video showing some spectacular phases of construction:


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## nitramwin

A video from today's first run through! 

Der erste offizielle Zug durch den Tunnel
#srfnews
http://www.srf.ch/play/tv/redirect/...75f-b3b6-f3c004bd7303?srg_sm_campaign=srf_app


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## doc7austin

A trip on the RegioExpress Lötschberger train on the Lötschberg Mountain Route in early December 2016:


Bern Railway Station:












Main hall:





















bls Lötschberger train - empty First Class cabin:





















In the Kander River Valley between Spiez and Kandersteg (north of the Lötschberg Pass)












Lötschberg Mountain Line - Northern Ramp between Frutigen and Kandersteg:












Kandersteg (1.176 m ASL); this station has an auto train track, which carries cars between Kandersteg and Goppenstein through the Lötschberg Tunnel:





















Just about to enter the Lötschberg Tunnel from the North:












Inside the 14.6 km long Lötschberg Tunnel, opened in 1913 (the highest point is 1.239 m ASL):












Goppenstein (1.217 m ASL), just south of the Lötschberg Tunnel:












Entering the Southern Ramp of the Lötschberg Mountain Line (looking down towards the Rhone River Valley);
For the next 19 km we will travel downwards to Brig (from 1.085 to 678 m ASL):





















Looking towards the Southeast:












Tunnel on the southern ramp:











Ausserberg (932 m ASL):






























Visp (the valley behind leads to Zermatt, Matterhorn and Saas-Fee):












Approaching Brig:












Brig in the sunlight (the Monte Leone-Sankt Gotthard Alps in the back, through the Simplon Tunnel towards Italy run):












Our bls Lötschberger train at Brig Railway Station, which will return to Bern in about 20 minutes:





















Swiss Railway (SBB) Intercity trainset at Brig in the Canton of Valais:






























Second class station in our train:












Train is departing Brig (the First Class section still stays empty):












We are again going to climb to 19 km long southern ramp towards the Lötschberg Tunnel:






























Hohtenn (1.078 m ASL) is the last station on the southern ramp:












Back at the Northern Ramp of the Lötschberg Mountain Line between Kandersteg and Frutigen:





















Stopping in Reichenbach im Kandertal (706 m ASL):





















Stopping in Mülenen (692 m ASL):












BLS RegioExpress train to Brig approaching Mülenen station:











Travel video:








Direct link to the video:



Code:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GGYU2ARFKI



Enjoy!


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/604308/
Georg Trüb, January 24, 2017, Biasca GBT bypass (Pollegio Binario di Sorpasso)
_Two coupled highspeed tilting trains of the ETR 610 series of the SBB are running as Eurocity 19 from Zürich to Milano on the Gotthard Base Tunnel line near Biasca._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/602695/
Georg Trüb, January 09, 2017, between Wengernalp and Kleine Scheidegg
_Partly lowfloor, articulated cogwheel trains Bhe 4/8 "PANO" # 149 and # 146 of the Wengernalpbahn (WAB), built by Stadler Rail in 2014/2015, above Wengernalp with the Eiger mountain (3970 m a.s.l.) in the background._


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## Suburbanist

How's the roll-out of the Gotthard tunnel been?


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## steple

In my opinion the new timetable has proved to have a good reliabilty. There are still some delays, especially with the ETR 610 Eurocity trains, but overall puncuality has improved quite a bit compared to the former timetable. This is mostly due to increased buffer times in the timetable to allow further construction works along the line. The trains are now often 3 to 5 minutes early.

There was a press release of SBB on the day of timetable change:
http://www.sbb.ch/en/group/media/press.newsdetail.2016-12-1112_2.html

_



Press release, 11 December 2016

*Timetabled services through the Gotthard Base Tunnel now under way: Successful start to a new age of rail travel.*

Trains have been running through the Gotthard Base Tunnel since earlier this morning, without any problems affecting what is a historic timetable change along the north-south Gotthard corridor. Passengers and freight customers are benefiting from shorter journey times and more reliable connections. Two special early-morning trains took customers and guests to Lugano, which is celebrating the opening of the longest railway tunnel in the world and also of its own refurbished station. The timetable change ran also largely without problems in the rest of Switzerland.

With the Gotthard Base Tunnel, SBB has successfully placed a complex integrated system in service following an intensive test phase. The historic timetable change means that passengers’ journey times along the north-south Gotthard corridor will be cut by around 30 minutes. Freight services will see train path capacity increase from 180 to 210 trains per day, while some 48 passenger trains will travel through the new tunnel over the same period. Only air-conditioned ICN and ETR 610 multiple units and InterCity train sets will use the Gotthard Base Tunnel, to be joined in late 2019 by the new Giruno trains, which will allow passengers to travel in genuine comfort. SBB is intent on making best possible use of the new rail infrastructure and is committed to improving punctuality along the north-south corridor in consultation with its partners in Italy. By the end of 2020 the planning of work at the infrastructure in Italy and Switzerland will be coordinated. Thanks to the good cooperation, the direct connection between Zurich and Venice can be definitely implemented in June 2017.

Today also marks SBB’s introduction of an attractive range of services on the Gotthard panoramic route, with its InterRegio trains from Basel, Lucerne and Zurich and its RegioExpress trains from Ticino now running to Erstfeld and back every hour. The peak-time direct through connections from Basel and Zurich to Göschenen are also being retained. In addition, the Gotthard panoramic route will play host to two tourist specials between April and October – the «Gotthard Weekender» from Zurich and the new «Gotthard Panorama Express» between Flüelen and Bellinzona.

«Switzerland comes together» in Lugano.

The start of the operation in the Gotthard Base Tunnel is another highlight in a very special year for Switzerland and SBB. The opening in June and has highlighted the importance of the century construction and showed what can be achieved with Swiss innovation, precision and reliability. Numerous partners were involved in this success: The Swiss Confederation, AlpTransit Gotthard AG, but also Gottardo's main partners, Credit Suisse, Coop, Mobiliar, Mondaine, Stadler Rail and ABB, as well as partners from business and science.

The EuroCity 11, the first timetabled train through the Gotthard Base Tunnel, left Zurich main station at 6.09 this morning for southern Switzerland. It was carrying customers and guests including Director of the Swiss Federal Office of Transport Peter Füglistaler and SBB AG CEO Andreas Meyer. A second special had left Basel for Lugano at 4.55 a.m., this time a combined passenger and freight train bringing «Basler Läckerli» biscuits to southern Switzerland as a gift for guests. Both trains arrived in Lugano some time after 8.00 a.m., to be met by local Ticinese and representatives of the canton. Lugano station then hosted the official ceremony marking the opening of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, an event entitled «Switzerland comes together». Peter Füglistaler and Andreas Meyer joined President of Uri Cantonal Council Beat Jörg, his Ticinese counterpart Paolo Beltraminelli and a great many guests to celebrate the longest railway tunnel in the world being placed in service.

Next on the programme was the opening of the modernised Lugano station and the refurbished «Funicolare» funicular, complete with a grand public celebration. SBB and the cantonal and city authorities have spent a total of CHF 23 million upgrading the station into the smart-looking «Terrazza del Ticino». The combined passenger and freight train will set off back for Basel just before midday, this time laden with panettoni, which will be handed out to customers at Basel station from around 3.00 p.m.

Full potential to be reached in 2020.

The revamped north-south Gotthard corridor will bring its full potential to bear in late 2020, when the Ceneri Base Tunnel and the 4-metre corridor are operational. This will increase train path capacity for freight services to 260 trains per day and save passengers travelling between German-speaking Switzerland and Milan up to 60 minutes on their journeys. From this point onwards, *trains between German-speaking Switzerland and Ticino will operate every half hour while Zurich–Milan services will run hourly*. In Ticino, the offer and the timetable are gradually being optimized. By the end of 2020 there will also be major improvements to regional traffic in Ticino. For instance, passengers can look forward to a new Lugano–Locarno express, while journeys between the Leventina district and Lugano/Mendrisiotto will be up to 30 minutes quicker.

SBB will have invested a total of over CHF 2 billion in Ticino by 2030. Although the company needs to make savings if it is to hold its own against increasingly fierce competition, it is still making targeted, sustainable investments in the future. With their overall strategy for Ticino, which was signed yesterday, the cantonal authorities and SBB have laid the foundations for exploiting the potential offered by these investments and for setting out their shared guiding principles for the mobility of the future.

SBB upgrading the north-south Gotthard corridor.

The new Gotthard Base Tunnel embodies Swiss precision, innovation and reliability and its opening on 11 December 2016 is the key milestone for the renovated north-south Gotthard corridor. By the time the Ceneri Base Tunnel and the 4-meter corridor are placed in service in late 2020, some 25 construction projects will have been carried out on the approaches to the two base tunnels between Basel and Chiasso. Using a range of measures relating to rolling stock, construction and operations, SBB will limit the impact on customers as much as possible until the projects are completed.

Click to expand...

_









http://www.railpictures.net/photo/600342/
Georg Trüb, December 22, 2016, Giustizia
_Giustizia is the junction, where the Gotthard Base Tunnel line which is bypassing Biasca, joins the Gotthard Mountain line, about 3 kilometers south from Biasca. Intercity push pull train Zürich-Lugano with leading cab car Bt and Re 460 in the rear is coming from the GBT line bypass of Biasca, while Hupac intermodal train 43075 with locomotive Re 474 # 005 is slowly nearing from Biasca, to follow the Intercity towards Bellinzona._












http://www.railpictures.net/photo/600294/
Georg Trüb, December 22, 2016, Biasca GBT bypass
_Intercity tilting train RABDe 500 is running the IC 867 from Zürich to Lugano on the Gotthard Base Tunnel bypass line of Biasca._












http://www.railpictures.net/photo/602052/
Georg Trüb, January 07, 2017, Rynächt
_North portal of the world's longest railway tunnel, the 57 kilometer (35.4 miles) long Gotthard Base Tunnel (GBT) between Pollegio in the Ticino to Rynächt near Erstfeld, canton Uri. Highspeed tilting train ETR 610 # 001 of Trenitalia from Milan to Basel via Lucerne is leaving the tunnel after a ride of about 20 minutes. The red builing is the information center Erstfeld of the Alptransit company, which built the GBT by order of the Federal Office of Transport (FOT/BAV). The Infocenter closed in December 2016, the GBT is finished and in operation._


----------



## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/602906/
David Gubler, January 13, 2017, Prime Tower Zürich
_Nightly view of Zürich HB from the Prime Tower ("Clouds" bar). _


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/606421/
Georg Trüb, February 11, 2017, between Samedan and Celerina
_Two ABe 4/16 "STZ" (Stammnetz-Triebzüge/Trainsets for the main network) # 3102 and 310x are running as RE 2119 reinforcement train from Chur to St. Moritz on the occasion of the FIS Alpine Ski World Championships 2017. This type is not seen in the Engadine valley usually, but running between Thusis, Chur and Schiers._


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## Antonio227

Whoa.

Snow & powerful locomotives.

Amazing combination.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/607624/











http://www.railpictures.net/photo/607625/
Georg Trüb, February 22, 2017, between Mellingen and Dätwil
_Test run of the "Twindexx" double deck Intercity train RABDe 502 # 002 from Bombardier for the SBB. This is the 8 car/200 meter IC version with dining car (red band on the fourth car), family (in the one front car with the dragon) and baggage (in the other front car, with special loading door) compartments. The train circulated between Mellingen and Baden Oberstadt for measurements of parasitic currents._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/607711/
Georg Trüb, February 23, 2017, between Sulgen and Erlen
_Electrolocomotive Eea 936 # 131 (with a battery for the "last mile") of Stadler Rail is pulling lowfloor cars with a cab car of a "Giruno" highspeed train RABe 501 from the Stadler work in Bussnang to the commissioning center in Erlen._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/608264/
Georg Trüb, February 26, 2017, between Bernina Lagalb and Ospizio Bernina
_The self propelled 0-6-0+0-6-0 steam rotary snow blower Xrot d # 9213 from 1910 is ready for action near the "Wasserscheide", on about 2230 meter a.s.l., the divide between Inn - Black Sea and Po - Adriatic Sea. The snow scraper X # 9132 pulled some snow from the sides into the middle of the track and the snow blower will sling it away soon. It's the steam rotary demonstration event of February 2017._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/608985/
Georg Trüb, March 04, 2017, Ospizio Bernina
_Railcars ABe 4/4 # 53 and 56 in Ospizio Bernina, highest point on the Rhaetian Railway network at 2253 meter a.s.l., with train 1649 from St. Moritz to Tirano. Note the large amount of fresh snow on the right, brought in by a heavy snow storm from the south._


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## Suburbanist

Is there a map of sections of standard gauge network that require helpers on regular service?


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## Coccodrillo

These are:
* Gotthard (Erstfeld-Rivera Bironico, sometimes up to/from Chiasso)
* Simplon-Lötschberg (Frutigen-Domodossola)
* Arth Goldau-Pfäffikon SZ for passenger trains because of the 50 per mil incline
On all these routes bank engines are added and detached on the summit point (sometimes beyond, for instance a a bank engine might run from Erstfeld to Rivera Bironico or Chiasso even if downhill it is not needed, to avoid extra manoeuvres as the ramp sections are not continuous).

In addition, passengers trains need more engines from Lausanne towards Bern, but these are usually always attached, they aren't used only on the ramp section.

On the Brünig and MGB lines bank engines are used to transfer locos and EMUs without rack on sections that need it.

Bank engines might be used on other lines for heavier freights (for instance, Lausanne-Vallorbe), but there aren't much of them.

Visp-Brig-Andermatt-Göschenen trains leave some coaches in Andermatt as the line from there to Göschenen is too steep (180 per mil IIRC) to carry them all.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/607229/
David Gubler, Langwies Viaduct, February 18, 2017
_A local train to Chur crosses the Langwies Viaduct._


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## mrsmartman

The railroads in Switzerland are very unique and picturesque.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/609922/
Georg Trüb, March 14, 2017, Eglisau
_Fire fighting and rescue train "LRZ 08" of Winterthur with Xans 99 85 9375 005-7, XTmas 99 85 9177 005-7 and XTmas 99 85 9174 005-0 is crossing the Rhine between Hüntwangen and Eglisau on a training run from Schaffhausen to Zürich Seebach._


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/608984/
Georg Trüb, March 04, 2017, Ospizio Bernina
_Railcars ABe 4/4 # 53 and 56 arrived in Ospizio Bernina, highest point on the Rhaetian Railway network, with train 1629 from St.Moritz to Poschiavo. Heavy wind and snowfall._


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## Coccodrillo

On 22nd March at 13:58 ETR 610.002 (a Trenitalia unit) derailed when leaving Lucerne station. There were only 7 minor injuries, but there have been serious damages to switches, tracks, overhead wires, signalling and so on. Traffic will be reactivated only tomorrow morning (26th March). The metre gauge line to Engelberg/Interlaken was reactivated quite quickly, all the standard gauge lines have been closed with trains terminating the stations before Lucerne.

http://www.bahnonline.ch/bo/blog/22514/trenitalia-etr-610-im-bahnhof-luzern-entgleist-22-3-17.htm


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=611621&nseq=38
Georg Trüb, March 30, 2017, between Sulgen and Erlen
_Transport of three cars for the new GIRUNO RABe 501 # 002 highspeed train for the SBB, from Stadler Rail's Bussnang plant to the commissioning center Erlen, loaded on 4 lowfloor freight cars._


----------



## MarcVD

Why can't it just be put on its own wheels and hauled ?


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## AlexNL

Maybe Stadler are using a new sort of bogie that hasn't been approved for use yet?


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## webeagle12

MarcVD said:


> Why can't it just be put on its own wheels and hauled ?


Not certified / no operational certificate yet


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## steple

Not only that, but the train has an articulated design with *Jacobs bogies* between the cars. Check the wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobs_bogie


> _Jacobs bogies (named after Wilhelm Jakobs, 1858–1942, a German railway engineer) are a type of rail vehicle bogie commonly found on articulated railcars and tramway vehicles.
> 
> Instead of being underneath a piece of rolling stock, Jacobs bogies are placed between two carbody sections. The weight of each car is spread on one half of the Jacobs bogie.
> (...)
> 
> Advantages
> 
> - Safety, because the trains are less prone to collapse like an accordion after derailing. A TGV has been recorded as having derailed at a speed close to 300 km/h with no resultant loss of life or severe injuries among its passengers.
> - Lower weight and simpler and cheaper construction because bogies are heavy, expensive, and complex structures.
> - Less rail squeal and other wheel-to-rail noise because of fewer bogies.
> 
> Disadvantages
> 
> - *The vehicles are semi-permanently coupled and can only be separated in the workshop.* However, some flexibility may be achieved by coupling two or three trains together.
> - Fewer bogies and fewer wheels mean greater axle loads – if everything else is equal.
> - As cars are only supported at their ends, the middle of each carriage will describe a wider path on curves than independently-supported cars, thus requiring a wider loading gauge.
> _


As the train is not finished yet (it should consist of 11 cars overall), it is clear that these transfer runs are made on lowfloor freigth cars.

Some more detailed photos of the bogie when it's completed, as shown at Innotrans 2016 in Berlin:

















source: http://www.bahnonline.ch/bo/blog/14848/stadler-enthuellt-zusammen-mit-den-sbb-den-ec250giruno.htm


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## Suburbanist

Why are they using Jacob bogies on long-distance single-floor trains?


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## MarcVD

Because articulated design offers more passenger friendly interiors than separate coaches perhaps ?


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## TRTL

It might be also more secure because it makes the train more rigid in case of accident.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Why are they using Jacob bogies on long-distance single-floor trains?


Why not? It's not as if this is a new thing...


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## wwc234

https://twitter.com/rayunch/status/856275153516417025
https://twitter.com/rayunch/status/855833264845705218
Switzerland Jumps on the Moe Train with Rhaetian Railway Mascot
Cross-cultural collaboration promotes the JapAniManga Night convention taking place in Davos on May 26 - 28

Paul Chapman
April 22, 2017 7:33pm +07 (2 days ago)


The moe phenomenon continues to conquer the world with a new collaboration between Japan and Switzerland: an original moe character named Nozomi that represents the Swiss Rhaetian Railway company.

Nozomi is illustrated by Pixiv artist Nekogamirin_c based on a concept by Rayun (@rayunch), a civil servant in Zurich who moonlights as an otaku cultural ambassador. Nozomi's uniform combines elements from both the uniforms of Rhaetian Railway employees in Switzerland and from the uniforms of Hakone Tozan Railway employees in Japan.

The character of Nozomi was created as part of the promotions for the 17th JapAniManga Night convention, which will be held from May 26 - 28, 2017, in Davos, Graubünden, Switzerland. The event is a celebration of Japanese culture, including food, cosplay, and music events. Voice actress / singer Kaori Sadohara is scheduled to attend as a guest.


http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-ne...on-the-moe-train-with-rhaetian-railway-mascot


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## steple

The first Giruno EC250 highspeed train for the SBB, RABe 501 001, was seen today in Romanshorn on its very first self propelled run :banana::banana::banana::






Some data from the Stadler rail website https://wwwstadlerrailcom-live-01e96f7.s3-eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/filer_public/ae/ae/aeae72e3-e567-49ac-98bc-f2334a8996ee/ec250_sbb_en.pdf:



> _*ELECTRIC HIGH-SPEED MULTIPLE UNIT EC250*
> 
> In October 2014, SBB ordered 29 eleven-part EC250 electric multi-system multiple units from Stadler. The multiple units, which
> SBB has named «Giruno», will travel through the Gotthard Base Tunnel as of 2019, connecting Zurich with Milan, and later Frankfurt
> with Milan, in record time. The trains have TSI certification and are approved for use in the railway networks of Switzerland, Germany,
> Italy and Austria. They are used both for conventional lines and on high-speed routes at up to 250 km/h. The platform level
> entry for platforms with heights of 55 and 76 cm, the pressure-tight, air-conditioned passenger compartments and driver’s cabs
> and the multifunctional and bicycle compartments in the passenger area set new standards for rail travel with regard to comfort.
> The screens of the digital information system are visible to all passengers. The train has been specifically designed to meet the
> needs of people with restricted mobility in accordance with the Swiss law on equal rights for persons of restricted mobility.
> 
> *Vehicle data*
> Customer: SBB AG
> Operated networks: approved for CH, DE, IT and AT
> Gauge: 1435 mm
> Designation: RABe 501
> Supply voltage: 15 kV, 16.7 Hz/25 kV, 50 Hz/3 kV
> Axle arrangement: 2’ Bo’ Bo’ 2’ 2’ 2’ 2’ Bo’ Bo’ 2’ 2’ 2’
> Number of vehicles: 29
> Delivery: 2019–2021
> (Test drives for approval: 2017–2018)
> Seating capacity: 405 (1st class 117 / 2nd class 288)
> Dining car seats: 17
> Floor height
> Low-floor: 940 mm
> High-floor: 1200 mm
> Entrance width: 900 mm
> Axial thrust: 1500 kN
> Length over coupling: 202000 mm
> Vehicle width: 2900 mm
> Vehicle height: 4255 mm
> Wheelbase
> Motor bogie: 2750 mm
> Trailer bogie: 2700 mm
> Driving wheel diameter, new: 920 mm
> Carrying wheel diameter, new: 920 mm
> Max. output at wheel: 6000 kW
> Starting tractive effort: 300 kN
> Maximum speed: 250 km/h_


----------



## PippoBRN

This week, Switzerland's second largest train operator BLS announced an order 58 Flirt EMUs from Stadler Rail. The contract volume is worth around CHF 650 million. There will be 30 sets for longer Regio Express services and 28 sets for the regional network around Bern. The sets will be delivered between 2021 and 2026. The announcement marks the largest single order by BLS ever.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/bls-orders-58-emus-from-stadler.html


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## Manolo_B2

*Switzerland's new high Speed Train unveiled*

*STADLER presented the first of 29 Giruno 250km/h electric trains to Swiss Federal Railways (SBB) at a ceremony in Bussnang on May 18 attended by the president of the Swiss Confederation, Ms Doris Leuthard, and the CEO of SBB Mr Andreas Meyer.*

Although a five-car Giruno was on show at InnoTrans last year, this is the first 11-car train to be completed. The three-system train is designed for operation in Switzerland, Germany, Austria and Italy, although it will be deployed on the Basle - Zurich - Milan corridor which includes the new Gotthard Base Tunnel. For this reason, Giruno is designed to withstand the huge temperature fluctuations encountered when entering and leaving the tunnel in winter, with special attention being paid to air pressure inside the train, air-conditioning and thermal and acoustic insulation.

Giruno has a low-floor for step-less entry from stations with 55cm and 76cm-high platforms, which will be of particular benefit to disabled passengers who will also have access to special toilets on board. All passengers will have access to 3G/4G mobile signals through a communications amplifier, while power sockets are provided at every seat.

Each train is 202m long and has 117 first-class and 288 second-class seats. There are also multi-functional areas, space for bicycles, large luggage racks, and separate male and female toilets.

The train has a maximum output at the wheel of 6MW and four motorised bogies with each axle driven. Four pantographs are fitted to cope with the different electrification systems in each country. Two trains can operate in multiple if required.

Giruno is certified in accordance with the high-speed train TSI and is designed to meet DIN EN 15227 crash-worthiness standards.

The train will undergo tests at Rail Tec Arsenal in Vienna prior to commissioning. Giruno is due to enter service at the end of 2019, and SBB has an option for 92 additional coaches.

“Giruno is the first ever mass-produced low-floor high-speed multiple unit train,” says Mr Peter Spuhler, CEO and owner of Stadler Rail Group. “It will travel through the longest rail tunnel in the world, and it is the first train ever to meet all of the requirements of the Swiss Disability Discrimination Act. The fact that the two project teams [Stadler and SBB] were able to develop and manufacture this train in just 30 months is a sensational achievement.”



















source: http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ut-first-giruno-train-for-gotthard-route.html


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## Castle_Bravo

Manolo_B2 said:


> *Switzerland's new high Speed Train unveiled*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source: http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ut-first-giruno-train-for-gotthard-route.html


I love the interior. The seats look so classic (in a positive sense), resembling the non-round shaped comfortable 1980s/early 1990s seats :cheers:.


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## Suburbanist

So SBB is going for cellular mobile (3G or 4G) sign amplification instead of mobile Wi-Fi?


----------



## Manolo_B2

*New Stadler Trains:* With Wi-Fi









*New Bombardier Trains:* Cellular mobile (3G or 4G) sign amplification


----------



## nitramwin

New development at SBB to facilitate faster, more accurate service all while allowing for better scheduling of work.


----------



## Co Co

Andermatt, (R 823) Disentis/Mustér-Andermatt


----------



## Suburbanist

Castle_Bravo said:


> I love the interior. The seats look so classic (in a positive sense), resembling the non-round shaped comfortable 1980s/early 1990s seats :cheers:.


What is wrong with round-shaped seats? They are meant to offer comfort while being thinner as long as the passenger falls within a 95% range of body dimensions (for those who don't they are less comfortable than flat surfaces).


----------



## Sopomon

Suburbanist said:


> What is wrong with round-shaped seats? They are meant to offer comfort while being thinner as long as the passenger falls within a 95% range of body dimensions (for those who don't they are less comfortable than flat surfaces).


Sure, but they look tacky and dated when situated in an environment comprised of mostly straight lines and edges.


----------



## Dichtefan

*Proposal for 11.5 Billion expansion of the rail network*

As demand in the railway sector is growing strongly in the coming decades, the rail network needs to be further expanded. At its meeting on 29 September 2017, the Federal Council proposed investments of CHF 11.5 billion by 2035. These investments improve heavily overloaded lines, enable the expansion of the network of private railways and provide express connections for freight transport. Projects included in the 2035 extension are the Brüttenertunnel, the Zimmerberg Basistunnel II as well as developments between Yverdon, Lausanne and Geneva, the Zurich-Stadelhofen railway station and medium-sized railway stations. The submission is now in the consultation.










Source: BAV


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## Coccodrillo

Train ferries on Lake Constance (Bodensee), shared between Switzerland, Germany and Austria. Known routes were from Romanshorn CH to Friedrichshafen D, Lindau D and Bregenz A, closed respetively in 1976, 1939, 1915. These pics are from 1954.

http://forum.milanotrasporti.org/viewtopic.php?p=620354#p620354

Another train ferry ran between Thun and Därligen until 1893, because the Därligen-Interlaken-Bönigen opened without any rail connection and remained isolated for a while. The section Interlaken-Bönigen was clsoed later. Note that it is said that this railway was purposedly built with two fixed bridges on the river between Lake Thun and Lake Brienz so as to impede any shipping betwen the two lakes...this secion of the river is otherwise flat and could easily be made navigable.


----------



## Zaz965

gothard base tunnel route :cheers:








https://real-economics.blogspot.com.br/2010/10/progress-brought-to-you-by-producers.html


----------



## Vaud

Dichtefan said:


> *Proposal for 11.5 Billion expansion of the rail network*
> 
> As demand in the railway sector is growing strongly in the coming decades, the rail network needs to be further expanded. At its meeting on 29 September 2017, the Federal Council proposed investments of CHF 11.5 billion by 2035. These investments improve heavily overloaded lines, enable the expansion of the network of private railways and provide express connections for freight transport. Projects included in the 2035 extension are the Brüttenertunnel, the Zimmerberg Basistunnel II as well as developments between Yverdon, Lausanne and Geneva, the Zurich-Stadelhofen railway station and medium-sized railway stations. The submission is now in the consultation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: BAV


Is there a link with the detail of the projects involved?


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## Dichtefan

I couldn't find a link in English. The fallowing one is in German. I'm sure on the same link you may find infos in french and italian if that is any help.

https://www.bav.admin.ch/dam/bav/de...df/Ausbauschritt 2035_Projekte und Nutzen.pdf


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## Dichtefan

An articel on railjournal about the proposal. 

http://m.railjournal.com/index.php/...sfr-115bn-rail-infrastructure-investment.html


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## Coccodrillo

From the timetable change InterCity and InterRegio lines will be numbered.

Numbers are usually derived from parallel motorways, so as they are easier to remember for passengers which already know road numbers.

In the case of two-digit numbers, it is the first one that denotes the corridor.

For instance, IC 2 is Zürich-Lugano, while IC 21 is Basel-Luzern-Lugano and IR 26 is Basel-Luzern-Erstfeld-Göschenen, as A2 is the Gotthard motorway. While IC 3, IR 36 and IR 37 are different services between ABsel and Zürich, as A3 is the motorway that connects the two cities. IR 90 follows the A9.

There are two big exceptions as IC 8 doesn't follow A8 motorway, and IR 70 doesn't follow A7. A4 motorway is roughly Schaffhausen-Zürich-Arth Goldau(-Flüelen), but here rail lines numbers are also an exception.

https://www.sbb.ch/content/dam/sbb/...ahrplanwechsel/SBB-FV-CH-IR-A1-174-it-WEB.pdf


----------



## TedStriker

SBB Cargo reform opens the door to private investors


----------



## worldwide70rm

Manolo_B2 said:


> *New Stadler Trains:* With Wi-Fi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *New Bombardier Trains:* Cellular mobile (3G or 4G) sign amplification


amazing trains


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## Momo1435

_"Die neue Vectron-Lok von SBB Cargo International ist da! We like!"_

https://twitter.com/SBBCargo/status/938674408784318464


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## Wilhem275

Now this is a nice livery!


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## Vaud

The first station of the CEVA is now open! :banana:












> La première gare du CEVA est prête à entrer en service
> 
> Vouée à devenir la deuxième station du canton, Lancy-Pont-Rouge accueille ses premiers passagers dans un secteur en plein chantier.
> 
> Il n’est pas aisé de se convaincre qu’on est à Lancy-Pont-Rouge pour fêter la fin de travaux. La nouvelle gare, première à entrer en service sur la ligne CEVA, a été inaugurée vendredi au cœur d’un secteur en pleine mutation. Il offre la vision chaotique d’un capharnaüm constellé de fosses de chantiers, encombré de barrières et hérissé de grues, échafaudages ou tours en pleine ascension vers d’imposants gabarits.
> 
> «On sent ici qu’une gare est une source de vie et de développement», souligne le directeur général des CFF, Andreas Meyer. «Lancy fera partie du centre-ville de l’agglomération genevoise», prédit Antonio Hodgers, ministre cantonal de l’Aménagement. https://www.tdg.ch/geneve/actu-genevoise/inaugure-station-ceva-lancypontrouge/story/11312724


This is how this area should eventually look like:


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## Sunfuns

The first full year of Gotthard base tunnel has been very successful. The overall traffic is up 30% compared to a year ago. This is part of the reason for near 8% increase in overnight visitors to Ticino and more Italians (no number given) north of the Alps as well. 

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/world-...sengers-through-gotthard-rail-tunnel/43745260


----------



## EMArg

From Liechtenstein to Sargans:


----------



## hkskyline

*Swiss Railways plans to put more Bombardier trains into service*
_Excerpt_

ZURICH, May 1 (Reuters) - Swiss Federal Railways (SBB) and Bombardier are making progress on resolving technical problems with passenger trains the Swiss have ordered and could put five more of them into service within weeks, the partners said.

SBB said in February that new Bombardier FV-Dosto trains had yet to live up to expectations and that the companies were working to correct issues, including improving software and fixing problematic doors.

"The new long-distance double-decker trains are more stable than at the end of 2018 thanks to various improvements. If developments remain positive, the SBB will add more Bombardier trains to operations over the next few weeks," they said in a joint statement on Wednesday.

SBB awarded Bombardier a 59-train contract in 2010, worth 1.9 billion Swiss franc ($1.86 billion), but the first deliveries were made only in 2018. Amid problems, Bombardier agreed to add three more trains free of charge as compensation.

Toni Haene, SBB's head of passenger transport, said on Wednesday that the plan was to put five more trains into service in addition to the 12 that have already been delivered.

The Swiss contract for the trains calls for undisclosed penalty payments in the event of delays, but the SBB has not given any details so far.

Financial terms were still under discussion, Haene told Reuters on the sidelines of a news conference held aboard one of the new trains as it travelled between Zurich and Basel, but declined to give more details.

Stephane Wettstein, the head of Bombardier's Swiss business, said the partners were learning more every day about how the trains perform.

More : https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-bombardier-trains-into-service-idUSKCN1S73BV


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## Suburbanist

This practice of adding more trains to a faulty order is so strange (not unique to SBB though). Airplane manufacturers give discounts to keep order on the book when such stuff happens. Why not train manufacturers?


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## TER200

Suburbanist said:


> This practice of adding more trains to a faulty order is so strange (not unique to SBB though). Airplane manufacturers give discounts to keep order on the book when such stuff happens. Why not train manufacturers?


 It's not adding more trains to the order, it's putting more - ordered long ago and already built - trains in service now that they work a little better.
Manufacturers have to pay compensations if they don't meet requirements, sometimes in the form of additionnal free trains (Montréal metro for example). With the huge discounts they have to offer to SBB, this will be a very expensive contract for Bombardier...


----------



## Suburbanist

A test of the gauge and height changing mechanism in Zweisimmen, between SBB and MOB tracks.


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## Vaud

With the CEVA about to open in a few months time and the Léman 2030 projects, the stations on the line to La Plaine are undergoing the final renovation works. 

La Plaine has provisional platforms with a red carpet floor that makes for good pics like this one from today


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## Wilhem275

What's the opening date for the Aarau - Olten expansion?


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## davide84

End of 2020:

https://company.sbb.ch/de/ueber-die...e-mittelland-tessin/eppenberg/terminplan.html


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## Wilhem275

Sweet.

I also realized that the new Eppenbergtunnel doesn't just add capacity but also acts as a proper flying junction to separate Zürich - Olten and Zürich - Basel traffic (I guess the Basel line will also carry traffic to Solothurn, to avoid conflicts in Olten station).
Traffic will be sorted just out of Aarau.


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## Suburbanist

I took a little train to Orbe again and I wonder if they will ever replace the train cars when their useful life runs out. Is this the shortest dead-end non-mountain rail line in Switzerland (Orbe-Chavornay)?

---------

What is the history of the line between Koblenz and Laufenburg, and why doesn't it carry any passenger service (it seems from whatever Google Street View available that the infrastructure is fully in place)?


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## kokomo

One quick question: on single track lines, signals are placed on the right or on the left hand side?


----------



## Vaud

Apparently the CFF are considering re-introducing more sleepers. 

Full article: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sleepe...considers-night-train-u-turn-climate/45026054



> The Swiss Federal Railways is discussing re-investing in sleeper trains, reacting to a climate-aware public increasingly having second thoughts about flying short distances.
> “We see the demand and are therefore looking into whether we can rebuild the night-train network,” Armin Weber, head of international passenger transport, recently told Swiss public television, SRF. “We’re now examining the routes and connections.”
> 
> Expanding the night-time network would be carried out in partnership with the Austrian Federal Railways (ÖBB), he said, but new rolling stock would be needed and this would take “two to three years”.
> 
> Potential routes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On June 6 a survey found that most Swiss were interested in taking cross-border overnight train trips. When it comes to preferred destinations, 60% want night trains to Germany, 48% to Italy, 41% to Austria, 37% to France and 21% to Spain.
> 
> Ueli Stückelberger, director of the Public Transport Union, welcomed the plans to beef up the night train offer – seeing potential in routes heading south, for example to Rome – but he told SRFexternal link that good value for money was essential.
> “Good quality is part of that. It’s also clear to me that various price categories will be necessary. When I was a schoolboy, sleeping in a six-berth couchette didn’t bother me. Today, people travelling on their own have higher demands and expectations,” he said.
> “The problem is that flying today is too cheap. Short-haul flights that don’t cost anything put an end to the night-train connection between Switzerland and Barcelona, another route with potential. The railways can’t offer that really cheaply.”


In french: https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/1047...mettre-les-trains-de-nuit-sur-les-rails-.html


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> I took a little train to Orbe again and I wonder if they will ever replace the train cars when their useful life runs out. Is this the shortest dead-end non-mountain rail line in Switzerland (Orbe-Chavornay)?


This line is electrified at 750 V DC (one of the first electrified railways in Switzerland) so it requires dedicated rolling stock. It even has some freight traffic which is done either with diesel locos or DC-only electric locos, which cannot run on SBB's AC tracks.

Some years ago this line bought a second hand DC EMU, the fifth EMU it bought in its history. This EMU is used alternately with an EMU built in the '80s. Beside these two EMUs, the third youngest was built in...1913 (and is now out of service).

There is a plan to convert the line to 15 kV 16,7 Hz AC and to run two section trains from Lausanne to Chavornay, where they would be divided to Orbe and to Yverdon. That's why they didn't buy new DC EMUs, just a second hand one as a temporary measure.

Another short line is Le Locle-Les Brenets. It has jus two EMUs, one coach and a few maintenance vehicles. The only track switches are in Les Brenets station, the rest of the line is just a track without any siding.

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...,,,&lang=it&E=2544500.15&N=1213150.96&zoom=11

The Mühleggbahn in St. Gallen was the shortest railway with self-powered vehicles (taht is, not a funicular): 320 metres. It had a single rack EMU, but now is a funicular.

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...,,,&lang=it&E=2746295.84&N=1254176.70&zoom=12

The Rheineck - Ruderbach - Walzenhausen (RhW) line is around 1.2 km long and is now operated by a single EMU, and uses the curious 1200 mm gauge (one of only two railways using that gauge, excluding funiculars, together with the Principe-Granarolo rack railway in Genova).

The RhW was originally built as a 700 m standard gauge railway from Rheineck to Ruderbach and a separate funicular from Ruderbach to Walzenhausen. The railway, although it was standard gauge, was never connected to SBB tracks and was operated by a three-phase EMU and a diesel DMU (one of the very very few DMUs ever used in Switzerland). After the Mühleggbahn this was certainly the shortest independent railway in Switzerland.

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...,,,&lang=it&E=2763044.75&N=1258026.93&zoom=10



Suburbanist said:


> What is the history of the line between Koblenz and Laufenburg, and why doesn't it carry any passenger service (it seems from whatever Google Street View available that the infrastructure is fully in place)?


It is used only by some freight trains now. There are some info on de.wiki but I don't have time to make a summary now:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahnstrecke_Koblenz–Stein-Säckingen



kokomo said:


> One quick question: on single track lines, signals are placed on the right or on the left hand side?


If I'm not wrong, on the left hand side. I'm not sure if, to save money, they sometimes use just one signal pole for both directions (in that case signals would be on the left in one direction and on the right in the other).


----------



## Dichtefan

Both chambers of parliament have cleared up the last differences in the next step in the development of the railway infrastructure (STEP 2035). Among other things, the new Winterthur Grüze Nord station was definitely included in the credit decision. The canton of Zurich benefits with multiple projects benefiting the expansion of its suburban train system as well as expanding multiple long distance train lines to run every 15 minutes. 

For the expansion step 2035, the Federal Council proposes projects for around 11.9 billion francs. The two chambers of parliament added multiple projects and the total amount to be spend will reach around 12.9 billion francs.

Numerous projects all over the country will create an even denser network that should be able to cope with the projected growth in passengers and freight. This should make it possible to run almost all Intercity trains every 30 minutes. On lines where different Intercity trains overlap this should create a train every 15 minutes for instance between Winterthur - Zurich, Zurich - Bern, Lausanne - Geneva.

Key projects include:

Brüttenertunnel between Winterthur - Basserdorfs (near Zürich)
Zimmerberg Base Tunnel II Thalwil - Baar (on the Zürich - Zug line)
4th track for Stadelhofen station
New line between Neuchatel - La Chaux de Fonds
Capacity improvments between Geneve - Lausanne
Expansion of the Lötschberg Base Tunnel

Among many other smaller projects.


----------



## Wilhem275

Dichtefan said:


> 4th track for Stadelhofen station



Will this include a 2nd track from Tiefenbrunnen station?


They should make the track from Stettbach dive under the station, have an underground platform and then join the line inside the Hirschengraben tunnel


----------



## Dichtefan

The Stadelhofen project does include a new single track tunnel to Tiefenbrunnen. Eight teams qualified for the architectural competition. According to an SBB website 
"In autumn 2019, an independent jury selects the winning project".


----------



## davide84

The problem with Stadelhofen was exactly how to double the line to Tiefenbrunnen / Zollikon with only three tracks in the station - which does not work.

IIRC one possible solution will see one additional tunnel branching off from the current Hirschengraben tunnel and joining the 4th track on the new platform.


----------



## Stuu

Dichtefan said:


> Expansion of the Lötschberg Base Tunnel


Does that mean all of it will be finished?


----------



## davide84

Not yet. They plan to install the track in the excavated-but-empty second third of the incomplete tube, upgrading the whole tunnel from 1/3 double track to 2/3 double track. The last third of the incomplete tube will be excavated at a later stage... :-(


----------



## Nexis

*★ Bellinzona - Basel cab ride with snowfall (Switzerland)*


----------



## Coccodrillo

I replied to the LBT topic in the more appropriate AlpTransit thread: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=159947054#post159947054


----------



## Suburbanist

I just traveled between La Chaux-de-Fonds e Neuchâtel. They have something very odd on the line: trains reverse at Cahmbrekien in order to keep climing/descending the mountain slope. A very old solution long abandoned and replaced elsewhere for its obvious shortcomings. Why haven't they built a spiral tunnel or something similar instead? Or was there once some sort of tunnel project eastward of Chambrelien to Les Ponts-de-Martel?


----------



## Coccodrillo

They built it just because zig-zags are cheaper than spiral tunnels. In Western Europe zig zags are uncommon, in Switzerland there are just two each with a single reversal. All other mountain lines either have spirals, rack sections or simply straight tunnels going under more difficult mountain areas.

Chambrelien: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...18641231,,,&E=2552217.00&N=1201972.00&zoom=10

Combe-Tabeillon: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...18641231,,,&E=2578724.08&N=1240282.53&zoom=11

There are reversal also in Grindelwald, Aigle, Le Sépey and Villars-sur-Ollon but these were built as they are to place stations in more suitable places, and trains would stop there anyway even if there were no reversal. The two above instead are pure reversing stations, with nearly no people using them except hikers.

A new Neuchâtel-La Chaux de Fonds has recently been approved, it is mostly in tunnels and will replace the existing line via Chambrelien.

It will roughly follow this path: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...18641231,,,,&E=2557836.37&N=1212715.72&zoom=5

The section between Neuchâtel and Chambrelien might be kept open and linked to the Val de Travers/Frasne line, with closure of the line via Bôle: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...18641231,,,,&E=2553311.69&N=1202431.68&zoom=7

The Combe-Tabeillon reversing station is on a narrow gauge line which was originally built as standard gauge, and thus required bigger radii of curvature. This will remain as it is, as it is on a very secondary line and as both here and in Chambrelien trains reverse in just 2 minutes (trains on the Chambrelien line have two drivers, so that they do not need to switch driver cab, while in Combe-Tabeillon trains are just short two-car EMUs and the driver can quickly walk to the other cab).

A record setup in Japan, with 18 zig zags on the same spot and more along the line: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.54977/137.51546


----------



## vitacit

in slovakia, there is also one zig-zag railway. it´s called vychylovka in very northwestern part of slovakia close to poland and czech republic. the former forest railway is now very popular and well-kept museum of folk history in kysuce region. 

https://www.auraknihy.sk/images/Kysucko oravsk eleznika - tra.jpg


----------



## Vaud

Today and tomorrow are the last open days to visit the new Léman Express stations in Geneva before service starts in December this year. I went to visit them today, and I have to say that although they may be a bit spartan, the overall effect is quite pleasing.

This is the plan of the new railway line (note that some names have been changed) 









Today I visited Lancy-Bachet, Genève-Champel, and Genève-Eaux-Vives.

I have posted more images and videos in the following thread: 

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=160292062#post160292062

Starting with *Genève-Eaux-Vives*.

The platforms:









The walls have been left bare, but they look good









Your screen is not wrong and the picture has good resolution








I actually really like the effect of the illuminated bare rock behind the glass.

I was surprised by the amount of exits the station has. I counted 4 escalators along the platform, 7 sets of very wide stairs, and 2 lifts. They are expecting big crowds here!

The escalators are all narrow, here's a video


----------



## Vaud

Next one, *Genève-Champel
*
A video, going down to the platforms






The main entrance









Down by the platforms









I really love the light effect on the underbelly of the escalators









The station also includes a new pedestrian tunnel linking the station with Geneva's general hospital "HUG"










And, finally, *Lancy-Bachet*

The outside









Platforms


















Accessibility to the station is a bit more limited. There are two sets of stairs and lifts per platform.

More pics here: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=160292062#post160292062


----------



## LSNlike

Thanks a lot for these pictures


----------



## davide84

Very nice video I just found about short-term Zurich SZU development:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLsZRdfH4UM
by 2022/2023 the S10 Uetliberg line will be converted to AC current and a new switch will be installed in the tunnel close to Giesshubel.

There is more planned (track doubling, changes to stops) but this piece of communication is so clear...


----------



## Suburbanist

Former Cisalpino trains are going to be put in service again - in Greece:



> Following its acquisition of national passenger operator Trainose, Italy’s FS Group has decided to deploy its 200 km/h ETR470 tilting trains to accelerate inter-city services on the Athens – Thessaloniki main line. This follows trials with one of Trenitalia’s multi-system ETR485 trainsets last year.


from Railway Gazette


----------



## davide84

Is it finally confirmed? The first of such news dates back to July 2018: http://www.ferrovie.it/portale/articoli/7660


----------



## Coccodrillo

Apparently it is. Meanwhile a few days ago I took the same unit in the photo (ETR 470.001) between Reggio Calabria and Rome. I don't understand why Trenitalia did not acquire all four SBB units, of which three were quickly demolished and the fourth has been split into three parts (one end coach has been preserved by SBB Historic has a static museum vehicle, 5 central coaches have been demolished, and the 3 remaining coaches have been used by Trenitalia to rebuilt an ETR 485 unit which was partly destroyed in an accident and thus are now still in use).

To understand SZU's projects one must know that now they operate with two electrification systems ont he same track, with the DC overhead line offset to one side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NThjpp7gCC4

The AC and DC lines never cross each other except in a point to access this chord linking SZU and SBB lines (which has no regular traffic): https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...18641231,,,&E=2681854.59&N=1246663.18&zoom=13

Link on SZU's website: www.szu.ch/naechsterhaltpuenktlichkeit

Most recent SZU vehicles can run both with AC and DC, and have mobile pantographs that can move from the centre to the side of the vehicle according to the type of current they have to use.


----------



## davide84

Coccodrillo said:


> Most recent SZU vehicles can run both with AC and DC, and have mobile pantographs that can move from the centre to the side of the vehicle according to the type of current they have to use.


AFAIK the selection is only possible in the shops, not during service. The realignment of the pantographs will happen only once, when S10 will be converted to 15 kV AC; no "mixed" services ever happened, nor are foreseen.


----------



## Coccodrillo

In this photos one pantograph is centered: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SZU_Be_510#/media/Datei:SZU_Be_510_in_Station_Uetliberg.jpg

And they have already been tested on 15 kV AC: https://bahnbilder.ch/travelogue/354

So it is possible that they cannot be quickly converted back and forth from AC to DC as normal dual current trains*, however they are not DC trains pre-equipped for conversion to AC, but full dual current EMUs.

*they might, for instance, not have a safety system to tell if the overhead above themselves is the centered AC one or the lateral DC one: modern electric engines often can understand what type of current they have above and if they can use it, while in addition to that tehse SZU units would also have to know where the cable is (raising up the pantograph in the wrong position might cause big damages)


----------



## btrs

Suburbanist said:


> Former Cisalpino trains are going to be put in service again - in Greece:
> 
> from Railway Gazette


This is news for the Greek and/or Italian HSR topic. ETR470 haven't run in CH for over 5 years.


----------



## 1772

Are there any plans for high speed rail between Geneva and France?


----------



## TER200

1772 said:


> Are there any plans for high speed rail between Geneva and France?


No.
The Swiss might be a little upset because the rebuilding of the "Haut-Bugey" line, of which they paid a large share, did not met its promise (Paris-Geneva in 3h).


----------



## Manolo_B2

*First IC2000 renovated, 340 to follow.*

before:


now:


source:
http://www.lokalinfo.ch/news/datum/...isierter-ic2000-doppelstockzug-ist-unterwegs/


----------



## btrs

Too bad they didn't follow DB with their homogeneous IC2-compositions: both loco (BR146.5/BR147) and coaches in the same ICE-livery.
Heck, even VR (Finnish railways) did better with their nearly identical locos (Sr2 are broad-guage version of Re460 and their double-deck coaches are also derived from the SBB IC 2000) in the now white/green livery.

SBB will now stick with the same boring red Re460 locos and now the IC2000's in ICN colours.. And it's not that the Re460 are used for freight anymore, since they were permanently allocated to SBB Personenverkehr back in the early-2000's.


----------



## nitramwin

btrs said:


> Too bad they didn't follow DB with their homogeneous IC2-compositions: both loco (BR146.5/BR147) and coaches in the same ICE-livery.
> Heck, even VR (Finnish railways) did better with their nearly identical locos (Sr2 are broad-guage version of Re460 and their double-deck coaches are also derived from the SBB IC 2000) in the now white/green livery.
> 
> SBB will now stick with the same boring red Re460 locos and now the IC2000's in ICN colours.. And it's not that the Re460 are used for freight anymore, since they were permanently allocated to SBB Personenverkehr back in the early-2000's.


The red locos are almost a trademark symbol at this point. The many diminutives such as Coladose (DE) (Coke can in English) show that the iconic red paint scheme is integral to the identity.


----------



## Wilhem275

I don't have a problem with the red loco, but I prefer the current color scheme, a bold identity. I always liked the red stripes over the doors.
The new one seems like an unfinished draft, too much empty white.

The black frame around the windshield is interesting though.


----------



## K_

TER200 said:


> Indeed. This was via Basel, and I think for several years (it was like this in 2013 and, I think, maybe up to 2019).


Indeed. But is wat not very popular, as you could get to Bern and Basel quicker by changing (cross platform) to the IC. The train mostly existed so that form the point of view of France Interlaken would exist...


----------



## danielwipf

There was quiet a bit of snow the last few days in eastern Switzerland and the railway had a lot of trouble with it. You'll find some videos or pictures on facebook:
SNOW
MORE SNOW
TONES OF SNOW

I took the chance to take some pictures at the Albula Line of the old Ge 6/6 today. In recent months, 3 out of 7 locomotives have been withdrawn from service and some of them have already been stripped of their insides. The end of this characteristic locomotive type on the RhB is within reach and unstoppable. I hope they will still survive the year 2021, but I am not quite sure.

The ice is getting thin... by Daniel Wipf, auf Flickr

I have been at the exact same location in November, so the change of the scenery is really impressiv!
Ge 6/6 II 706 with food train by Daniel Wipf, auf Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

76849 by Christian Wenger, en Flickr
Wallbach


----------



## danielwipf

BLS's class Re465 locomotives are getting a new look in connection with a major overhaul. The once blue locomotives are now shining in new splendor and a neon green color scheme.

BLS Re465 012 im neuen Kleid by Daniel Wipf, auf Flickr

Taken on 26.02.2021 near Winterthur


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## danielwipf

68 year old pensioner still on duty!

The RhB Ge 4/4 I should actually enjoy her retirement long ago. Already in 2010, the RhB began to withdraw the first locomotives of this type, to scrap them or even to transport them to museums. A few years later, however, the lack of locomotives at the RhB was so acute that the locomotives that still existed were brought back. 4 locomotives of once 10 examples still exist today and can still be seen regularly in service on the RhB network!

The 68 year old Ge 4/4 I transported the freight train 5732 from Ilanz to Landquart on the morning of 02.03.2021. Main part of the freight are containers from Valser, the mineral water producer belonging to the Coca-Cola group.

68 year old pensioner still on duty! by Daniel Wipf, auf Flickr


----------



## [email protected]




----------



## CornelM




----------



## Suburbanist

a cab view of the bypassed Furka railway






(it was bypassed by a tunnel in 1972, and now just used for heritage traffic).


----------



## da_scotty

Can anyone tell me what stock is used on the EC 153, taking it on the 14th of October!


----------



## M-NL

When you search the Trenitalia site this is what comes up:








So my guess would be probably a RABe 501 Stadler SMILE aka 'Giruno'

Edit: Easiest way to know for sure is to make a seat reservation. If the train has 11 or 22 cars to choose from it's a Giruno, if 7 or 14 cars it's an ETR610


----------



## davide84

In the screenshot is highlighted in blue: Materiale Giruno.


----------



## Coccodrillo

According to Reisezüge der Schweiz is a ETR 610 (sometimes two). Note that this website shows that the second ETR runs only to Capolago-Riva San Vitale, which is just a service stop where the two trains are separated, you can't alight or board there. EC 153 has a special path, not entirely in "takt" with the other ECs.


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## davide84

But sbb.ch shows it has 11 coaches... at least today... that is incompatible with a 610.


----------



## M-NL

Has anybody already been on both the ETR 610 and the Giruno? Which one was better and why?
We have seen to many recent examples of newer trains being more cramped and having less comfortable (harder) seats.


----------



## davide84

I took both, but I don't have extensive experience with the Giruno.

I think the Giruno is a bit better, mainly because of the improved baggage space. The 610 has clearly a tilting-oriented design and many spaces marked for luggage are actually too narrow for standard-sized (aviation) trolleys. I always had issues with that, and only on the 610.
Access is also better on the Giruno IMHO.

Confort wise I have no complaints with both, I resisted 6 hours 😃


----------



## Sunfuns

Going by the excellent Wikipedia page (in German) on Swiss railway projects seems like the era of great building works is at least temporarily over. Very few major building projects in progress right now. Biggest probably the new Albula tunnel and continuous capacity improvements for Lausanne-Geneva.

Schweizer Eisenbahnprojekte – Wikipedia


----------



## mistertl

I think that the track doubling on the Lötschberg Base Tunnel can also be considered a major project, although I guess that passengers won't notice much as it's mostly for future rail capacity.


----------



## TER200

davide84 said:


> Access is also better on the Giruno IMHO.


Well, the Pendolino is really bad on this point (especially the end cars with only one door). Of course, the Giruno with its low floor had to do better.


----------



## M-NL

Doesn't the Pendolino predate the current accessibility requirements that the Giruno does have to and does meet?


----------



## da_scotty

I do wonder if the service is operated by FS's ETR610 it also includes it's first class service with drinks snacks included. Well I guess we will see, hyped either way.


----------



## davide84

M-NL said:


> Doesn't the Pendolino predate the current accessibility requirements that the Giruno does have to and does meet?


Yes of course. The 600 family had other design requirements than the Giruno, particularly for CH.



da_scotty said:


> I do wonder if the service is operated by FS's ETR610 it also includes it's first class service with drinks snacks included.


I don't remember it... the 610s run as EC, not Frecce, onboard service is (most likely) not the same.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Going by the excellent Wikipedia page (in German) on Swiss railway projects seems like the era of great building works is at least temporarily over. Very few major building projects in progress right now.* Biggest probably the new Albula tunnel* and continuous capacity improvements for Lausanne-Geneva.
> 
> Schweizer Eisenbahnprojekte – Wikipedia


I guess that's a tunnel somewhere on the Albula line of the RhB (Chur-St Moritz)?
If yes, where exactly?


----------



## Sunfuns

It is in the same place as the old one. They're making a new bore which will replace the current one. The old one will be kept for security reasons. Finishing date 2024. 

Rebuilding of the Albula Tunnel


----------



## CornelM

Rail Traffic in Sargans[March 2021]


----------



## The Wild Boy

Is there a dedicated thread for Rail 2000?


----------



## CornelM

Landwasser viaduct seen from the train in July 2020


----------



## 33Hz

Can any locals assist with this please?

I have a trip planned in two weeks that involves travelling from SW Germany to Zurich to change trains onto the ÖBB Nightjet to Austria. It is not clear if this requires a <72 hour PCR test for Covid-19 as I will be in Baden-Württemberg over Christmas and I will only be on the ground in Switzerland for about 15 minutes, without leaving the station.

Looking at the advice on the BAG website, the federal travel checker and the Canton of Zurich, the interpretation on whether a PCR is needed for this situation is all a bit different. I am wondering if this is different interpretations of the laws, which are not originally published in English.

The current ordnance in force is here, with links to the German updates: Fedlex




> Von der Testpflicht nach Artikel 8 und der Quarantänepflicht nach Artikel 9 ausge-nommen sind Personen:
> 
> d. die *ohne Zwischenhalt durch die Schweiz durchreisen*;


Does "Zwischenhalt" in this case cover a change of trains? Does it have a specific meaning in German that maybe is subtly different to English?

We called them and were told that a change of trains is allowed, but that was just a phone call and I don't want to fall foul of a border guard with a different understanding!


and;



> Von der Testpflicht nach Artikel 8 ausgenommen sind zudem:
> c. Personen, die *aus Gebieten nach Anhang 1a einreisen*, sofern der entspre-chende Staat oder das entsprechende Gebiet nicht in Anhang 1 Ziffer 1 aufge-führt ist;
> 
> Anhang 1a
> (Art. 2 Abs. 4, 3 Abs. 2 Bst. d und 9a Abs. 2 Bst. c)
> Gebiete an der Grenze zur Schweiz
> Gebiete in Deutschland:
> – Land Baden-Württemberg
> – Land Bayern
> 
> ...



Here I interpret this as starting the journey from these areas, but the Swiss TravelChecker in particular has this in English as you _live_ there.


Any help would be much appreciated.


----------



## K_

33Hz said:


> Does "Zwischenhalt" in this case cover a change of trains? Does it have a specific meaning in German that maybe is subtly different to English?


Strictly speaking "Zwischenhalt" even means any stop the train makes. Since you will be mixing with local Swiss commuters you are effectively entering the country.
If you use travelcheck.admin.ch you will have to check "transit, changing the means of transportation" and this will lead to the mention that you need the PCR test.


I would try to get to Feldkirch and join the NightJet there...


----------



## 33Hz

Thanks - indeed that would have been my interpretation, which is why I am suspicious of what was said on the phone.

I have looked at getting to Feldkirch, but it's circa 4 hours to get to it and the whole point of booking the sleeper was to avoid many hours of day trains with masks etc...

We may be ok by virtue of starting from Baden-Württemberg, but then the English translation here is not good...


----------



## rheintram

Btw. why don't you just get the test? Even if you don't end up needing it, it will save you a lot of headache.


----------



## 33Hz

Because it's another €130 on top of several hundred we have to spend on tests etc for this trip and if I can avoid more expense just for a change of trains, I will.


----------



## Momo1435

Some RhB trains on the Albula line around Bergün taken by myself in September 2021. 



20210829_191615 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_5355 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_4542 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_4837 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_4927 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_5086 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_5183 by Momo1435, on Flickr


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## fajfer2003

Zurich Hbf 15/02/2022


----------



## Coccodrillo

This year there will be many festivities for the 175 years of Swiss railways. One unknown fact is that the first Swiss railway was broad gauge, 1600 mm as used in Ireland, like some nearby German lines. Both the Swiss and German lines were soon regauged.

https://175-anni.ch/ (only in DE-FR-IT)

(actually it's 178 years, as in 1844 the Strasburg-Basel raiwlay opened, however on Swiss territory there were just a few kilometres and the last station, the first complete Swiss railway opened in 1847 between Zürich and Baden)


----------



## [email protected]

In the video is part about Swiss timetable (Taktfahrplan):


----------



## KAEX

*Zürich HB: Main Station* | Renovation

Address: Bahnhofplatz 1, 8001 Zürich
Architect: Aebi & Vincent
PAX: 500'000/day
Duration: March 2018 - June 2023


































*Progress:*










source: https://sbb-immobilien.ch/liegenschaften/generalsanierung-zuerich-hb-suedtrakt/


----------



## 0tomek0

Meanwhile Swiss court rejected Alstom's appeal regarding the tender for up to 510 EMUs.
This means, that more Stadler Flirt EMUs will run in Switzerland.








Swiss Court Upholds SBB Contract with Stadler


The Swiss Federal Administrative Court has dismissed Alstom's appeal against the award of an SBB Thurbo and RegionAlps contract to Stadler.




railway-news.com


----------



## KAEX

SBB Train Depot Zurich Herdern

source: Cloud: Kanton Zürich lässt Microsoft 365 zu


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## [email protected]




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## kokomo

I was casually watching that video and it surprised me to see the Lötschberg base tunnel half way completed. Is there any realistic plan to finalise it properly?


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## Coccodrillo

Yes and no. First, let's explain how it is built. It can be divided into three sections:

a 13 km southern section where both tubes are fully functional
a 14 km central section where only the eastern tube has been completed, while the western tube has been bored and partly equipped with just a temporary lining and minimum equipment so as to be used as a rescue tunnel
a 7 km northern section where only the eastern tube was built (plus a small diametre rescue tunnel located to the east of it, which was built in advance as an exploratory tunnel, there is also a very short section of the western tube near the northern portal, that's why you see two tracks entering the mountain in Frutigen, but they join just inside the mountain)
just north of the 34.6 Lötschberg base tunnel there is the 2.6 km Engstlige cut&cover tunnel, which was built with space for two tracks but where only one was installed

It has been decided to fully equip the central section and the Engstlige tunnel, and this will be done in any case. It has also been proposed to build also the missing northern section all at once, so as to save money. 25 years ago, when the contractors started boring the tunnel, they proposed to the Swiss government to bore also the missing section, as they already had all the construction equipment in place so excavating a few kms more was very cheap, in the order of a few dozen million CHF. However, the government said no so as "to save money", with the result that excavating this section now will cost hundred of millions. The cost of doubling the whole tunnel is estimated at around 1.3 billion (CHF, EUR or USD it's roughly the same). Building it double track from the start would have costed maybe one third of this money (in addition to the cost of building the rest of the tunnel, obviously). Decision to whether partially or fully double the Lötschberg base tunnel will be taken next year, during a future parliament discussion.

The Swiss like to save a few francs by dividing public works in more phases. This has been done also with line 2 of the Lausanne's metro, which was built in 2008 with a single track section because they wanted to recycle a narrow 300 m tunnel. Now they are planning its doubling at a much greater expense. Another example is a railway tunnel on a branch line in Lugano. They wanted to built it single track to save money, but thankfully they understood that it would have been used at 100% of its capacity from day 1 (no joke, the planned timetable didn't allow for any increase in traffic) so they decided to build it with two tracks from the beginning to avoid to have build a second tunnel a few years after the first one (construction should start in the next few years).


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## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> Another example is a railway tunnel on a branch line in Lugano. They wanted to built it single track to save money, but thankfully they understood that it would have been used at 100% of its capacity from day 1 (no joke, the planned timetable didn't allow for any increase in traffic) so they decided to build it with two tracks from the beginning to avoid to have build a second tunnel a few years after the first one (construction should start in the next few years).


Which branch line is that? Haven't heard about this project...


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## davide84

Is it Lugano's tram-train? In that case I understood it was the ministry of transportation to force the local planners to have it double-tracked since the beginning.

The missing section of the Lötschberg tunnel is just ridiculous*, even more if we consider that is was planned like that, and not the result of the constructor going bankrupt.

*and they're discussing it again, since last year and until next year. There must be a bug attached to this module of the "Switzerland-software", which otherwise works well.


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## kokomo

Thanks so much for the thorough explanation.👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I agree with the suggestion of boring everything and later on equipping it in order to optimise the usage of already present machinery. It looks such as a third-world country solution what has been done, but if that's how the Swiss government typically works🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️
Let's hope that the Government now decides to finalise it properly
Thanks again


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## Coccodrillo

Yes, it's Lugano's tram-train, and it is the BAV/UFT that asked planners to avoid repeating the mistake of building single track tunnels. There is a website about it, but sadly it sucks just like many modern websites: RTTL | Rete tram-treno del Luganese

I have roughly drawn the new section here: Swiss Geoportal

It will link to the existing metre gauge line to Ponte Tresa (bottom left), which will be partially doubled, while the existing line to Lugano will be closed (bottom right).

The section to Lugano city centre will be in a 2.7 km tunnel. It was initially planned to be double track from the city centre to an underground station under SBB main station, and single track after that. Simulations had shown that as a train had left the single track section of the tunnel (on one side or the other), another train would have had to enter the single track in the opposite direction. Beside leaving no spare capacity to add more trains in case of an increase in demand, this meant that a train with a delay of less than a minute would have messed up the timetable for the following hours, delaying all other trains in a domino effect.

There are plans to expand the network in more phases as a city tramway. Lugano, which has around 120'000 inhabitants, would then be one of the smallest cities in the world with a new city tramway. Nordhausen, Gmunden and other cities in Europe are less than half of that size and have a city tramway, and have even modernized their network, but they had never been closed. Lugano network would be built new, although the city already had a first generation network, which by the way had a line with a 90 per mil slope (not a record, but still remarkable, I think it was the second steepest tramway in Switzerland after Lausanne). Another oddity is that it was initially electrified with three phase AC (and thus tracks had two overhead wires), before being converted to 1000 V DC. It was replaced by trolleybuses partly recycling the same 1000 V DC equipment, which was another unusual feature as nearly all trolleybuses worldwide use 600 or 750 V DC. Trolleybus operation ended on 30th June 2001, with a single electric vehicle running that day.


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## Patrako




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## pimlico30

Here's a VERY long train celebrating 175 years of Swiss railways: World's longest passenger train rolls through Alps

Hopefully there's a longer article and video elsewhere to match the 1.9km long train!


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## lunarwhite

Here is a good long article.

Why Switzerland built a 2-kilometer-long train.


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## lunarwhite

Here is another article with an embedded 5 minute video.

Record broken for the longest train in the world in Swiss canton Graubünden


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## Kielbus




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## Kielbus




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## 437.001

🔼🔼🔼
That's strange.
What happened to the passengers who needed to take a train around that time of that day in the Grisons canton?
Were there any extra trains left for the regular service on the Albula, Engadin, and Prâttigau lines?


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## Sunfuns

Most likely extra buses were organized that day. Just as it would happen for any other planned or unplanned closure of the line.


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## Coccodrillo

There were some trains limited to the Chur-Preda and St. Moritz sections, and later just Chur-Bergün/Bravuogn. Some were actually a combination of a train and a replacement bus, for instance in the afternoon there were Chur-Tiefencastel trains and Tiefencastel-Bergün/Bravuogn buses, or St. Moritz-Samedan trains + Samedan-Spinas buses.

There was no service at all until late afternoon through the Albula tunnel, that is, between Spinas and Preda, so passengers to the Engadin region (Samedan-St. Moritz) ha dto run via Klosters and the Vereina tunnel, which takes around the same timeas the direct route, or sometimes up to 20' more which is reasonable once in a while. Thusis-St. Moritz trips (including travellers from Bellinzona via the connecting bus service) took much more time but again, it's once in a while. Some people might have taken the bus service via the Julier pass instead of the detour by train.

Some extra trains were also put to transport railfans and curious people to Bergün/Bravuogn.

The special train was prepared during the night and during Saturday morning in the Albula tunnel, that's why the regular service was interrupted there.


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## Ugo Fantozzi

Switzerland’s unique addition to the rails: the GoldenPass Express


A new train service with the name GoldenPass Express starts service this week in Switzerland. The train features a novelty: it switches from metric to standard gauge, as the first in the world. The GoldenPass Express (GPX) will run directly from Montreux to Interlaken from 13 December 2022 with...




www.railtech.com


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