# SPAIN | Railways



## Thermo

Does anyone have a map of all high speed lines in the EU?


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## Napo

aquablue said:


> What are you talking about -- Italy will have many beautiful new HSR stations, new HS trains and is constructing many new lines at the moment...do your homework before putting down Italy..
> 
> Any italians here want to show these poor fools what you are developing and what is planned? Please do.


*New stations for high speed trains*

Napoli-Afragola (under construction)




































*Torino-PortaSusa* with a skyscraper of 100 m (under construction)





































*Roma-Tiburtina* (the construction will begin time soon)














































*Firenze-Belfiore* (under development)





































*The Italian High Speed train is the ETR500 * (built in Italy by an italian company, AnsaldoBreda, with technologies developed in Italy, not like in Spain, whose high velocity trains are constructed by French (Alstom) and Germans (Siemens) companies, with French and German technologies, not spanish.)



















*Future HS Lines in Italy *


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## Guest

Napo said:


> *New stations for high speed trains*
> 
> *The Italian High Speed train is the ETR500 * (built in Italy by an italian company, AnsaldoBreda, *with technologies developed in Italy*, not like in Spain, whose high velocity trains are constructed by *French (Alstom) *and Germans (Siemens) companies, with French and German technologies, not spanish.)
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> GENIUS LOCI said:
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> New ETR.600 *Alstom* out of the factory
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> "High-Speed Railways in Spain
> Spain is rapidly expanding its high-speed rail service, becoming one of most connected countries in the world. *As the high- speed rail network grows, Spanish companies continue to innovate and provide new services and products at lower prices to meet the world’s growing demand*. This is the fourth in an eight-part series highlighting new technologies in Spain and is produced by Technology Review, Inc.’s custom-publishing division in partnership with the Trade Commission of Spain.
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> By Cynthia Graber"
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> http://www.technologyreview.com/microsites/spain/train/index.aspx
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> "...The term “high-speed rail” does not refer to a particular type of train but, rather, simply to the speeds it can attain. Today most high-speed trains are electric, though diesel trains, incorporating newer technology, have been able to reach similar speeds. For instance, *the Spanish company Talgo *has a diesel train that reached 250 kilometers per hour in testing, though its trains purchased for systems around the world remain electric..."
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> Could you accept the reality instead of lying, please?
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> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## HiRyu

SORRY, REPEATED POST


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## HiRyu

Napo said:


> *New stations for high speed trains*
> 
> *The Italian High Speed train is the ETR500 * (built in Italy by an italian company, AnsaldoBreda, with technologies developed in Italy, not like in Spain, whose high velocity trains are constructed by French (Alstom) and Germans (Siemens) companies, with French and German technologies, not spanish.)
> QUOTE]
> 
> Poor you, you write but you don't know anything at all. Do you know TALGO? you can see pics of its trains up here posted by Bitxofo. TALGO is Spanish company with Spanish Technology and its trains are much more impressive than italian ones how you can see


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## Napo

Forezen, the italian high speed train is the ETR500 built by AnsaldoBreda!!!!
The Alstom ETR600 is a new pendolino.


Yes HIRyu, i know Talgo, and I konw the (not) spanish high velocity trains:

*by Alstom* (a copy of TGV)


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## Napo

Frozen, the italian high speed train is the ETR500 built by AnsaldoBreda!!!!
The Alstom ETR600 is a new pendolino.


Yes HIRyu, i know Talgo, and I konw the (not) spanish high velocity trains:

*by Alstom* (a copy of TGV)










*Hola*


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## amagaldu

please guys whether spanish or italian can you please, please, please stop with this fight..? you are ruining this interesting tread.. 

I think the mods should delete all these posts which are not related to the subject which is New HSL in Spain..



Thermo said:


> Does anyone have a map of all high speed lines in the EU?


 yes Thermo, I think you are dutch, aren´t you..?

in that thread you can find few ones and links to other pages..

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=420528


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## HiRyu

aha, so in Spain there're spanish technology trains and trains with french or german technology too... so where's the problem?? If you want to talk about Italian trains, please open a new thread and dont ruin this, thank you


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## Guest

amagaldu said:


> please guys whether spanish or italian can you please, please, please stop with this fight..? you are ruining this interesting tread..
> 
> I think the mods should delete all these posts which are not related to the subject which is New HSL in Spain..
> 
> yes Thermo, I think you are dutch, aren´t you..?
> 
> in that thread you can find few ones and links to other pages..
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=420528


There is no fight here. Napo says that italian trains are made in Italian and i just show him that it was false. 

Besides, he said that spanish train were all strangers and that's not true, so i write the link explaining about Talgo trains but he didnt notice yet. 

But, i dont care, finally the spanish high speed is developing right now and we will see the results.

i'm going to load again any images about spanish tecnology (Cause this thread IS ABOUT *SPANISH HSL*, not from italy):










CAF is spanish mark too:









Another spanish design:









Spanish companies have developed tilting technologies, helping trains navigate curves in the line with greater speed, comfort and safety.









Spanish design too:









Spanish alvia:









Countries like Finland, Belgium, UK, USA or Italy, have adquired spanish tecnology


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## DonQui

Great to see how the Italians have ruined this thread. :cheer:

You wanna talk about your great looking tains and stations, open another thread.

Spare us the crap


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## aquablue

matherto said:


> "will have" "new" "constructing"
> 
> all points for the future, this guy was talking about his past experiences, learn to read before you try and defend something which clearly was a problem in his opinion.
> 
> I visited Venice and wasn't impressed on the whole with the city, went to the train station to have a look around, the architecture and overall scale of the place was nice, but it was dirty and the trains were late just as the guy said


you may not be impressed with Venice, but its certaintly one hell of a lot more intersting than Liverpool, and not as grimy -- at least it isn't ruined by countless ugly post war buildings in the historic center or brutalist concrete monstrosities... 

The trains in Italy In my experience were great -- on time and fast ... much much better than those silly UK railways


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## aquablue

I'm not Italian but I'm tired of seeing this country being scorned by people on this forum -- I didn't start the talk about Italian Trains, I just came in to respond to the Spanish Forumer talking down about the trains in Italy.... The spanish area always posting on this forum talking about how great their trains are, and to be honest, they are not that special in comparison to other train systems around the world such as France, Japan .. and Italy will have a similar system as Spain... They have ordered a new Alstom AGV for 2009 with similar speeds as that ICE 3 (350kph)..


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## aquablue

DP


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## DonQui

aquablue said:


> I'm not Italian but I'm tired of seeing this country being scorned by people on this forum -- I didn't start the talk about Italian Trains, I just came in to respond to the Spanish Forumer talking down about the trains in Italy.... The spanish area always posting on this forum talking about how great their trains are, and to be honest, they are not that special in comparison to other train systems around the world such as France, Japan .. and Italy will have a similar system as Spain... They have ordered a new Alstom AGV for 2009 with similar speeds as that ICE 3 (350kph)..


I am not Italian either, but let me tell you about my experience with trains in Italy:

Rome to Naples: train delayed, kicked off of train so that SQUEGEE men could be brought on an mop out the water.

Naples to Rome: track fire that was so hot that you felt the heat as you passed by.

Rome to Florence: the only trip without a problem, although it was so fricking hot that it makes me wonder how a MEDITERRANEAN country deals with a lack of air condition.

Florence to Venice: this one takes the cake. train 4 hours delayed, we were then told to upgrade to a Eurostar service as this would be the safer bet, AND we had to PAY for the upgrade. 

:cheer:


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## aquablue

Well, my experience was flawless between Rome-Florence - Florence - Venice - Venice - Milan .. 

You can complain all you like about Italy, but the fact remains that they are well ahead of many other developed or rich countries in the realm HSR. In adition they are are building 3 or 4 HSR lines, 4 new amazing HSR stations that are all architectural masterpieces, have a good HST (ETR 500), an updated pendolino comming soon (ETR 600) for regular lines, a new AGV on order for 2009 - compare that to countries like the the USA, which is currently building no LGVs and has no real LGV's ATM; not to mention the UK which only has the CTRL and no real domestic HSR yet.


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## Cicerón

This thread is about a Spanish new HSL. If you want to argue about different issues, don't do it here. Thanks.


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## Guest

aquablue said:


> I'm not Italian but I'm tired of seeing this country being scorned by people on this forum -- I didn't start the talk about Italian Trains, I just came in to respond to the Spanish Forumer talking down about the trains in Italy.... The spanish area always posting on this forum talking about how great their trains are, and to be honest, they are not that special in comparison to other train systems around the world such as France, Japan .. and Italy will have a similar system as Spain... They have ordered a new Alstom AGV for 2009 with similar speeds as that ICE 3 (350kph)..


This is a spanish high speed thread, if anyone wants to talk abo0ut italian high speed, there are many threads but not here. The thread is called " New HSL in Spain" and not New HSL in Italy. It's simple, isnt it?


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## aquablue

Yes its about spanish trains, but someone here started to talk about Italian trains and putting them down...Given people started comparing the two countries' train systems, its only fair that one can defend the Italian system against the Spanish in this thread, as it still involves the Spanish trains.


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## amagaldu

amagaldu said:


> please guys whether spanish or italian can you please, please, please stop with this fight..? you are ruining this interesting tread..
> 
> I think the mods should delete all these posts which are not related to the subject which is New HSL in Spain..


the thread has already been reported and 11 posts after I wrote this it´s still the same..

I hope a mod will soon take care of this..


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## Guest

aquablue said:


> Yes its about spanish trains, but someone here started to talk about Italian trains and putting them down...Given people started comparing the two countries' train systems, its only fair that one can defend the Italian system against the Spanish in this thread, as it still involves the Spanish trains.


People is explaing their own experiences and if your train came 3 hours later and you want explain it, it's natural.This is a forum, and people share our own experiences, and if you have to comment a bad one, you can do. In Spain didnt sell you two different tickets for the same sit or no trains come 3 hours later. I think you would take the energy to trying to improve that instead of refusing and say italian railways are better (No spanish said it, at least, i didnt read it).


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## Coccodrillo

- HSL in service (blue)
- HSL under construction (dark green)
- HSL in planning (yellow)
- improvements works on an existing line (light green)
- projected improvements (orange)
- existing line (black)










Again, that's not all HSL.

Anyway, the Pendolino tilting train (as the ETR 600) was developed by Fiat:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5688/img26704qu8.jpg


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## lpioe

I've never seen TV's in trains before, that's really cool.
The interior looks very nice and modern, kinda reminds me of an airplane.


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## Reivajar

HSL network in Spain will be a combination of new lines (300-350kph), and old upgraded lines (220-250 kph). Generally, new lines will link Madrid to peripherical regions, and upgraded lines will be used as transversal and secondary connections. The objective is linking any provincial capital to Madrid in less than 4 hours and to Barcelona in less than 6.


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## Bitxofo

^^Better than inside an airplane, actually!
:yes:


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## aquablue

Its amazing to think that Spain has now superior infrastructure than the UK, which is a richer country...Spain was once the poorest EU country, its quite amazing how it leapfrogged the wealthier nations -- it must be something to do with EU subsidies and in terms of the rail projects, Spain's low density population and large land mass in comparison to the UK would make things easier to build new HSR lines through the countryside... I believe Spain is a huge country and it is much easier to build rail lines without disrupting population centers in comparison to the UK or Italy which are much smaller in land mass but with larger populations.


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## HiRyu

aquablue said:


> Its amazing to think that Spain has now superior infrastructure than the UK, which is a richer country...Spain was once the poorest EU country, its quite amazing how it leapfrogged the wealthier nations -- it must be something to do with EU subsidies and in terms of the rail projects, Spain's low density population and large land mass in comparison to the UK would make things easier to build new HSR lines through the countryside... I believe Spain is a huge country and it is much easier to build rail lines without disrupting population centers in comparison to the UK or Italy which are much smaller in land mass but with larger populations.


That's not true. Spain never has been the poorest country in EU, do you know Portugal or Greece?


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## Larrotcha

For some time now i have been looking at the remarkable developments in Spain. Both economically and socially. And what strikes me most are the reactions from especially english and italian side (where are the french?). The fact that they put so much effort in talking Spain down just says enough.

Aquablue, it is not just about subsidies. It is about having a a proper vision, proper planning and a system where a large number of construction companies compete for building stretches of the tracks. Thereby limiting the construction costs. Bear in mind that is no coincidence that Spanish companies are at the forewront in worldwide infrastructure construction/management.

Unlike some countries where no planning seems to exist, good money is thrown after bad and 'incentives' need to be offered to get the contracts.

Spain has indeed been receiving - and still is to a lesser extent - large sums of cohesion funds. Maybe we should conclude they put it at good work. 

Then again, it is not one big success story. There have been some serious delays - like most of the infrastructure projects of this magnitude - and I seriously doubt it the HSL will reach Barcelona by the end of this year.

Also, I doesn't seem HSL lines are easier to build in Spain. It is a country full of mountainranges and its cities are densely populated. A lot of tunnel boring is involved as well building structures to cross the many valleys.


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## oduguy1999

alot of people tend to forget that Spain has a trillion dollar economy and should be part of the G8. Most EU money goes to the poorer regions of Spain like Andalucia and Extremadura. Madrid, as well as Barcelona, is one of the wealthiest cities in europe and has one of the highest GDPs. Spain is very mountainous and most these projects are more difficult to build then in other flat nations. Spain has made a concerted effort to connect all their densely populated cities and they seem to plan and carry out their plans very effeciently(unlike many other nations). Spain has come a long way from the days of when it was under the rule of the tyrranical dictator Franco. But it has managed to show a great deal of resolve and ingenuity. I do agree, I do feel there are alot of jealous forumers from other nations that critique Spain. Maybe they should stop being jealous and look at that innovative thinking that the Spaniards bring forth.


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## Crocodine

Another hijacked thread! Yeah!!

Bragveza rules.


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## Facial

Excellent shots.


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## Stifler

aquablue said:


> I believe Spain is a huge country and it is much easier to build rail lines without disrupting population centers in comparison to the UK or Italy which are much smaller in land mass but with larger populations.


That's true in the interior of the country (like the plateau of Castile), but not in the coastal regions, which have a pretty high density. 

Moreover, Spain is the second most mountainous European country (after Switzerland), so we have to build big tunnels.

Spain will spend 43% of the 2005-2020 Strategic Plan for Infrastructures and Transport budget in railways (more than €100,000 million).


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## Cicerón

Crocodine said:


> Another hijacked thread! Yeah!!
> 
> Bragveza rules.


¡Viva la Bragveza!
:cheers:


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## Guest

aquablue said:


> Its amazing to think that Spain has now superior infrastructure than the UK, which is a richer country...*
> 
> 
> 
> Spain was once the poorest EU country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *, its quite amazing how it leapfrogged the wealthier nations -- it must be something to do with EU subsidies and in terms of the rail projects, Spain's low density population and large land mass in comparison to the UK would make things easier to build new HSR lines through the countryside...* I believe Spain is a huge country and it is much easier to build rail lines* without disrupting population centers in comparison to the UK or Italy which are much smaller in land mass but with larger populations.


Spain was one of the poorer but no the poorest (Portugal, Greece, central european countries, eastern european countries). And Spain was the richest country once too (century XVI) and?

Contruction in Spain is very difficult because is the second country in Europe in highlands (after Switzland). The average of altitude in Spain is about 700m over sea level. So it's difficult to build in a country full of range of mountains and try to contruct a train line from 0 meters (coast) to 700m (madrid altitude) or 800 m (most of Castillians cities are over 800m, Soria and Avila 1200m)


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## Bitxofo

I just wait for December of this year 2007:

Barcelona-Madrid in 2 hours 15 minutes, direct trains!
:drool::drool:


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## aquablue

To be honest, having to build tunnels, etc.. is nothing compared to dealing with citizen groups that are deadset on preventing their precious countryside from dissapearing or being divided by HSR infrastructure.. That is why I mentioned that in the UK it is more difficult to piece together such projects as there are more towns and villages to bypass, more opposition to percieved environmental impacts, etc.. This is of course a result of its higher population density. Spain's cities are dense, but its interior is rather not, and the majority of rail lines run through the interior. Not through cities but only ending/starting in them.

Having vast open spaces composed of mountain ranges and valleys like in interior spain is a detriment and it certaintly costs more in construction, but in reality it is a blessing in disguise. This is because the gelogical engineering challenges are not as severe a setback compared to the iron fist of political opposition and citzen organized protest groups which more often than not prevent such massive projects from ever getting rolling in the first place. This of course is resultant from the difficulty in aquiring enough land in the immediate vicinity of farms, small villages, etc. that lie along the various route options in such a country as the UK or elswhere.


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## Crocodine

You're totally right, aquablue. :yes:
And an excellent post, by the way. :applause:


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## Skylandman

aquablue said:


> To be honest, having to build tunnels, etc.. is nothing compared to dealing with citizen groups that are deadset on preventing their precious countryside from dissapearing or being divided by HSR infrastructure.. That is why I mentioned that in the UK it is more difficult to piece together such projects as there are more towns and villages to bypass, more opposition to percieved environmental impacts, etc.. This is of course a result of its higher population density. Spain's cities are dense, but its interior is rather not, and the majority of rail lines run through the interior. Not through cities but only ending/starting in them.
> 
> Having vast open spaces composed of mountain ranges and valleys like in interior spain is a detriment and it certaintly costs more in construction, but in reality it is a blessing in disguise. This is because the gelogical engineering challenges are not as severe a setback compared to the iron fist of political opposition and citzen organized protest groups which more often than not prevent such massive projects from ever getting rolling in the first place. This of course is resultant from the difficulty in aquiring enough land in the immediate vicinity of farms, small villages, etc. that lie along the various route options in such a country as the UK or elswhere.



So then can you explain me how is that the Uk has such a dense regular rails ,roads and motorways networks? I guess that all the troubles you mention above didn´t applied for that kinf of works...they just apply for the HST network.

The UK doesn´t have a HST network, not because the citizens oposition, neither because it can´t afford it, but because their politicians until now are lacking the willing of doing it.

See Germany, they have a similar population density and similar conditions, but they didn´t lack the willing.


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## Iggui

estos trenes son una mi3rda...










 just kidding. me gustaron mucho. quede muy impresionado con estos hipermodernos trenes. i'm very jealous. i wish we had trains like those in the US and A.


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## Bitxofo

Cabin of the train:









:runaway:


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## Bitxofo

2 ALViA (HS trains) in Barcelona França station last Saturday:









:wink2:


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## arriaca

Another photo of an Alvia in Guadalajara 











Buen reportaje Bitxo


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## Guest

Buen reportaje! Zaragoza's Delicias central station is stunning!


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## Bitxofo

^^Yes, it is amazing, it looks like an airport!
:eek2:


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## Justme

hanks for the post. I thought these trains were going to reach 350km/h?


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## Reivajar

Not. These trains (class 120) can reach 250 kph, but they can run on UIC-gauge tracks and on Iberic-gauge tracks. That's their advantage.

Trains that can reach 350 kph are:
Class 103 "Velaro" ot "The Dolphin". Manufactured by Siemens. It's being testing, not yet into commercial service. It has reached 403,7 kph in tests with a conventional unit (not modified).











Class 102 "The Duck". Manufactured by Talgo and Bombardier. It can reach 350 kph, but it has been homologated only for 330 kph.


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## Marek.kvackaj

nice train ...hmm 700km for 4hours...


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## DonQui

Marek.kvackaj said:


> nice train ...hmm 700km for 4hours...


The Siemens and the Talgo trains posted above your post will eventually do the 700 km in 2.5 hours or less.

:drool:


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## Bitxofo

^^2 hours 14 min. in December 2007!


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## Enzo911

napotroll in action


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## Tintin

The amount of EU funds used to finance HST in Spain would barely cover the cost of the HST Madrid-Barcelona-French Border. 

Cohesion funds have been a boost for HST development in Spain, for sure, but are just a tiny part of a huge financial effort made by a country, let´s remember, that has been succesful - at the same time - to keep its macroeconomic figures - public debt & deficit - in a much healthier status than almost any other country in the EU.

It´s all about been comitted.


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## Chilenofuturista

TintinMadrid said:


> The amount of EU funds used to finance HST in Spain would barely cover the cost of the HST Madrid-Barcelona-French Border.
> 
> Cohesion funds have been a boost for HST development in Spain, for sure, but are just a tiny part of a huge financial effort made by a country, let´s remember, that has been succesful - at the same time - to keep its macroeconomic figures - public debt & deficit - in a much healthier status than almost any other country in the EU.
> 
> *It´s all about been comitted*.


Así es / Exactly. :yes: 

Insisto: he sido, lo soy y seguiré siendo un admirador de mi Madre Patria.
Go Spain!


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## zergcerebrates

They're going to paint this train right?

the window area looks burnt and unfinished.


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## mirza-sm

frozen said:


> Countries like Finland, Belgium, UK, USA or Italy, have adquired spanish tecnology


We also ordered some Talgo trains for 2009


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## Bitxofo

^^Where?
:?


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## willo

^^ i guess Bosnia looking at his avatar


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## Coccodrillo

Exactly, Bosnia.



zergcerebrates said:


> They're going to paint this train right?
> 
> the window area looks burnt and unfinished.
> 
> http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4036/img26787oa6.jpg


Yes, it was tested without final colours and without seats.


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## Enzo911

neuromancer said:


> El sábado pasado, tuve la oportunidad de participar en una de las pruebas de homologación del S103, cosa que aproveche para realizar unas cuantas fotos.
> 
> El tren en vivo es realmente bonito y espectacular, al igual que el interior, pero mejor juzgad vosotros mismos:
> 
> Esterior del S103 estacionado en Puerta de Atocha:
> 
> Exterior velaro:


Siemens S103 Velaro


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## Cicerón

^^ More pictures here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=445711


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## Già

Me gusta mucho....... muchisimo..... y me gusta mucho la livrea de Renfe....


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## Guest

Es realmente fantástico y espectacular!!!:banana: :banana:


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## DonQui

sexy train. :drool:


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## arriaca

El martes pasado, en una de mis habituales escapadas a Sevilla tuve la oportunidad de asistir a uno de los primeros viajes del reformado S100. No circulaba en servicio comercial, como parecían apuntar las distintas notas de prensa, y debía de tener todavía los asientos calientes tras su presentación a los medios esa misma mañana en los talleres de la Sagra. 

Como para gustos los colores, decir que es muy discreto el cambio que han realizado. Un tren que creo que está envejeciendo muy bien, y al que únicamente le han cambiado exteriormente los logos y la raya azul por la pantone. Podrían haber aprovechado y pintarle también de negro los espacios entre ventanas, como su hermano el pato. Pero aún así creo que la actuación ha sido muy acertada. 


Ave S 100 original y reformado










Saliendo ya de la estación con destino Madrid





































Interiores de los coches de clase turista. Gracias al túnel pude sacar estas fotos, aunque no sean muy claras se puede intuir la tapicería y las lámparas de las mesas de leds



















Una de las partes técnicas más bonitas del tren, a imagen del talgo, boje común para dos coches










Y ya por último la familia AVE sevillana al completo, con las lanzaderas S104 de Córdoba en la vía derecha.


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## Guest

Muchas gracias por las fotos. Me encanta el cambio del azul por el morado, parece más elegante. Ese modelo es tecnología española 100%?


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## JoKo65

No, es técnica francesa.


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## sdf11

Técnica española:

Talgo 350 / AVE S 102:





CAF "BRAVA" / AVE S 120 (comercial name: Renfe Alvia)






Los otros AVE son:
uno de técnica francesa (S 100/S 101) los de las últimas fotos, derivada directamente del TGV.

Y el otro ( AVE S 103 o Velaro) es una evolución del ICE 3 Alemán, pero con una vel. max. de 350 km/h, convirtiendose así en el tren más rápido del mundo. 

P.D. Recordad que actualmente el AVE S 103 es el tren en composicion "comercial" más rápido del mundo con 404 km/h en un tramo de la nueva HSL Mad-Bcn (el TGV logra grandes "records" pero con trenes modificados explicitamente para ello, por lo que no deberia ser el tren comercial más rápido del mundo como parece que quieren decirnos o como así lo piensa la gente de a pié, sino el "convoy sobre railes" mas rápido del mundo).


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## Bitxofo

JoKo65 said:


> No, es técnica francesa.


Tecnología, no técnica, francesa sólo para el AVE 100 made in 1991.
:yes:
Only French technology for AVE 100 series made in 1991.


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## arriaca

Otros detalles un pelín puntillosos es que S 120 no se llama Brava, puesto que Brava es el nombre que se le dio al boje de ancho variable. Y que el S103 es el tren más rápido *en servicio comercial*.

Saludos


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## sdf11

^^ 

Brava no solo es el bogie sino que tambien es como llaman al proyecto en conjunto (al tren en si) dentro de la propia CAF; todo esto lo encontre en internet aunque si sabes cual es el verdadero nombre del proyecto dentro de CAF deberias decirnoslo:wink2: 

A que velocidad va en ICE3 en servicio comercial?


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## JoKo65

sdf11 said:


> ^^
> 
> A que velocidad va en ICE3 en servicio comercial?


300 km/h.

330 km/h son possible.


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## Cicerón

I think we should write in English here


----------



## arriaca

I think is better use Renfe names (S120 (Caf) and S103 (Siemens))


----------



## sdf11

^^ 

Yes, it's more clearly for all

Sorry for speak spanish in the internacional forum...


----------



## growingup

Here are some videos from the Spanish HST (AVE) and RENFE.
Renfe services' spot:
(Translation: "Get on-board, on technology, on safety, on words. Get on-board when you want to enjoy your trip or not to lose a minute. Get on-board with all you want us to take and what you need us to bring. Get on a train which takes care of the landscapes it travels through, a train which has a commitment with the world you live in, a train that comes from far away and still goes further away. Renfe, travelling to future. Do you want to get on-board?")




Renfe's AVE Spot:
(Translation: "Machines are made by men. Machines are what men do with them. Travelling to future. Do you want to get on-board?")




A Talgo 350 S-102(Duck) leaving from station:




Some Talgo 350 S-102 and Siemens Velaro (An evolution of ICE-3) S-103 which will be used in new HSL. Madrid-Barcelona will top 400km/h (average 350km/h) thanks to the S-103, being the fastest commercial line when running at full speed in 2008:




First AVEs ALSTOM S-100 (derived from TGV Atlantique) reforms. They have been running since 1992 between Madrid and Seville. It tops 300km/h:




And the Corporate video from Siemens of its new Velaro S-103:




I hope you enjoy them


----------



## arriaca

sdf11 said:


> ^^
> 
> Yes, it's more clearly for all
> 
> Sorry for speak spanish in the internacional forum...



:yes:


----------



## sotavento

Coccodrillo said:


> - HSL in service (blue)
> - HSL under construction (dark green)
> - HSL in planning (yellow)
> - improvements works on an existing line (light green)
> - projected improvements (orange)
> - existing line (black)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, that's not all HSL.
> 
> Anyway, the Pendolino tilting train (as the ETR 600) was developed by Fiat:
> 
> http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5688/img26704qu8.jpg





oduguy1999 said:


> alot of people tend to forget that Spain has a trillion dollar economy and should be part of the G8. Most EU money goes to the poorer regions of Spain like Andalucia and Extremadura. Madrid, as well as Barcelona, is one of the wealthiest cities in europe and has one of the highest GDPs. Spain is very mountainous and most these projects are more difficult to build then in other flat nations. Spain has made a concerted effort to connect all their densely populated cities and they seem to plan and carry out their plans very effeciently(unlike many other nations). Spain has come a long way from the days of when it was under the rule of the tyrranical dictator Franco. But it has managed to show a great deal of resolve and ingenuity. I do agree, I do feel there are alot of jealous forumers from other nations that critique Spain. Maybe they should stop being jealous and look at that innovative thinking that the Spaniards bring forth.


Not quite right ... Spain has 6 times size of portugal ... 4 times the population ... and only 2 times the GDP per capita of portugal. 

Spain basicaly is a lot os nowhere (centered in madrid) with almost all populated places located on the shores ... and half a dosen major cities in between. 

Spanish High speed Network is basicaly some RADIAL 350km/h lines (basicaly new lines along existing ones wich will bem left as regional and freight corridors) linking Madrid with Those cities (Valladolid, Zaragoza,Cordoba,Albacete) , and the rest os the network is being upgraded to MIXED 200/250km/h (with many NEW variants being built).

And its universaly consentuous (?) that HSL is > 200km/h (125mph) 

So british Pendulino(virgin), HST(many operators) and IC225(gner) are in fact High Speed Trains for instance ... and except for the WCML between Crewe and Scotland Englands railways are almost flat compared to Spain/Italy ... it's easy to upgrade everywhere to 200/300 running over there. 

About the spanish trains ... Spanish CAF has buit many HST trains Of their oun design or based on designs by Their partners ... and talgo has trains running at 330km/h of their own design. 

Only for italians fans ... "Pendulino" tecnology was based on a BRITISH design/tecnology (APT) and is now OWNED by french ALSTOM. 
Only for Italian Railways Critics ... the diference between the italian "late & smelly" intercity/regional trains and the "nice and tidy" Spanish trains is basicaly that in italy HST and regional trains are options you can take to go almost anywhere ... in spain every HST link killed the old route and all its services ... the most blatant case being Madrid-Toledo.

Here in portugal we have a SERIOUS problem ... we have a very saturated rail network ... and we "feel the urge" to connect our HSL to those 4 points on the border with spain ... but we "have the need" to build about 1000km of HSL over some heavily urbanized areas to do so ... .


----------



## fertiberia

sotavento said:


> Spain has 6 times size of portugal ... 4 times the population ... *and only 2 times the economic size of portugal. *


----------



## fertiberia

sotavento said:


>


..


----------



## Stifler

sotavento said:


> Not quite right ... Spain has 6 times size of portugal ... 4 times the population ... *and only 2 times the economic size of portugal.*


:lol: :lol: What's your source?

The Spanish economic size is 6.5 times bigger than Portuguese one.


----------



## sotavento

hno: ... nice guys you all ... just went to get my breakfast and you already spammed my reply ... :bash: 

not Economic size (what the hell is that) but GDP ... got to go to sleep or it becomes worst ...  

Just for the record GDP per capita its about Spain is $27.000 and portugal is $19.000 (at least acording to CIA)

Spain being $1.1 trilion and portugal $200 bilion ... so its only 5.5 times bigger. 

And it was meant solely as a "smart ass" reply to oduguy1999's last phrase.


----------



## Tintin

^^ 

Spains´s GDP (2006): 1,231.4 US$ bn.
Portugal´s GDP (2006): 153 US$ bn.

1,231.4/153 = *8,04*


----------



## growingup

Coccodrillo said:


> - HSL in service (blue)
> - HSL under construction (dark green)
> - HSL in planning (yellow)
> - improvements works on an existing line (light green)
> - projected improvements (orange)
> - existing line (black)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, that's not all HSL.


That's not true. All that lines in that map (this one, specifically, not others) are
HSL in Spain in standard UIC gauge. Not convetional, nor upgraded tracks, all new High Speed Lines (HSL) built in standard UIC gauge and electrified with 25Kv. 50 HZ A.C.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ in that map, blue lines are HSL in use, 25 kV and standard gauge. The red and dotted lines, are the same, but under construction (even if some stretches have yet been opened).

Green lines are planned.

They will be initially built at iberian gauge (1668 mm) but with convertible sleepers (1668 *OR*1435), electrification will probably be in 25 kV from the beginning.

Some are yet under construction, like Pontevedra-Santiago de Compostela-A Coruña. I've done Santiago-A Coruña by train in august 2006, on some streches my train run on the old line, on some other it used the new. Temporarly, 1668 mm and diesel traction.

Blue and red lines are or will be only-passenger 350 km/h lines, the greens ones miexed passenger/freight, with 200 to 220 km/h as speed limit (not really HSL). We will see how many green lines will be built.

I hope that iberic network will be converted to standard gauge in the future, especially for freight traffic. Rail freight traffic between Spain and France is very low, about 6 million tonnes each yerar


----------



## growingup

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ in that map, blue lines are HSL in use, 25 kV and standard gauge. The red and dotted lines, are the same, but under construction (even if some stretches have yet been opened).
> 
> Green lines are planned.
> 
> They will be initially built at iberian gauge (1668 mm) but with convertible sleepers (1668 *OR*1435), electrification will probably be in 25 kV from the beginning.
> 
> Some are yet under construction, like Pontevedra-Santiago de Compostela-A Coruña. I've done Santiago-A Coruña by train in august 2006, on some streches my train run on the old line, on some other it used the new. Temporarly, 1668 mm and diesel traction.
> 
> Blue and red lines are or will be only-passenger 350 km/h lines, the greens ones miexed passenger/freight, with 200 to 220 km/h as speed limit (not really HSL). We will see how many green lines will be built.
> 
> I hope that iberic network will be converted to standard gauge in the future, especially for freight traffic. Rail freight traffic between Spain and France is very low, about 6 million tonnes each yerar


Once again, that's not true.
All that "green lines", or most of them, because oll of them are STILL a proyect, will be built in UIC from start. ADIF, the publish administrator of train infrastructures in Spain, knows that there's no much future on iberian gauge when talking about HSL, and given that fact, not a single NEW HSL in Spain will be built in iberian gauge. Of course there are upgraded tracks in iberian gauge that support speeds greater than 200km/h such as the one that links Barcelona-Valencia; but once again, not a single NEW HSL will be built in iberian gauge.
All of them would be electrified with 25kV 50Hz A.C. ; double tracks in the most important axes, single in those with lower traffic, as it happens already with Madrid-Toledo line.
Top speed on each line is a different thing... Many of them, the most important axes, will be thought to support speeds around 300-350km/h, as Córdoba-Málaga or Madrid-Barcelona. But, for sure all of the "green lines", will support speeds greater than 200km/h, as it is a condition to be considered a HSL in spain. Let's not forget the AVE S-103 (Siemens Velaro) has already achieved a speed of 403,7km/h in August 2006 and the AVE S-102 (Talgo 350 "Duck", a Spanish design) 365km/h in June 2006, both on them on Spanish tracks during tests and without too much hassle.
There will be no cross-levels in them (another requirment).
Trains will be equiped with GSM-R, ERTMS/ETCS level 2 as primary signalling system (to be implemented in 2008) and ERTMS/ETCS level 1 as a backing signalling system (already used in the parts of the Madrid-Barcelona line that are in service and to be implemented through out this year in the rest of the "blue" lines).
The Spanish goverment has an ambitious plan to have 2.230 km of HSL operational by 2010, and high-speed rail has been its "big bet" in infrastructures, taking half of all its great budget (including motorways, airports... ).
I'm aware it is difficult to achieve these goals for 2010 and those 7000km for 2020, but in any case, I'm sure HST have a brilliant future in Spain, as they are though to be a very valuable sign of progress among Spanish society.
PD: thanks to zoltan.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Compare this:
http://www.technologyreview.com/microsites/spain/train/player/spainmap/images/Spain_trainmap.gif (planned "HSL" lines)
and this:
http://bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/iberian-peninsula/iberian-peninsula.gif (existing network)

They shows about the same lines, that is, neraly all railways are planned to be upgraded to 200 km/h and UIC gauge.

It's true that Spain is planning to convert all of its network to standard gauge, it's true that al "green" line are planend to sue standard gauge in the future, but *not* from the beginning.

_Once again_, I have travelled the Santiago-A Coruña line in summer 2006, and it used iberian gauge and diesel trains even on the upgraded parts. Some parts of this line have yet been upgraded, some not = my train used the old line here, then the new there, and again the old line, then the new...

At least this line is being (re)built with iberian gauge and diesel traction, and will be converted later. Zoltan here or on Tranvia.org will confirm that.

So:
Phase one: new line, iberian gauge, 3 kV or diesel traction
Phase two: the new line will be converted to standard gauge and 25 kV
The "_Corredor Atlántico_" follows this scheme, and there is nothing shame in that.

Maybe some lines will built, or rebuilt, with standard gauge from the beginning, probably the lines near the French border, like the Y-Basca (Bilbao/Vitoria-San Sebastián-Irún-France).

I'm still unsure about what will happen with the Pajares base tunnel, anyway (León-Oviedo). Iberic or standard gauge...I think Zoltan answered that question somewhere.


----------



## TohrAlkimista

aquablue said:


> I believe Spain is a huge country and it is much easier to build rail lines without disrupting population centers in comparison to the UK or Italy which are much smaller in land mass but with larger populations.


Here I have to quote a thing, that a lot of people can't understand...for us a big problem is given by the shape of the country and by the distribution of population...

in many areas, which are really interested in the HSL, there is a continuity in terms of cities and population incredible...if you look with google earth, or something similar, you can easily understand it, for example,watching the area from Venice to Turin...

and where the problem are not the number of people or of cities, often is the conformation of the land...mountains...lika Appennini...

So in Italy the HSL cost a lot more than other countries,because of the population, the territory and also beacuse of the cost of the improvements of the actual network that is already quite exstensive. I

n Spain the situation is different...they are creating infrastructure that don't exist and often the build through quite desertic lands.

Here the actual italian and spanish network:

















[/QUOTE]


----------



## Guest

TohrAlkimista said:


> Here I have to quote a thing, that a lot of people can't understand...for us a big problem is given by the shape of the country and by the distribution of population...
> 
> in many areas, which are really interested in the HSL, there is a continuity in terms of cities and population incredible...if you look with google earth, or something similar, you can easily understand it, for example,watching the area from Venice to Turin...
> 
> and where the problem are not the number of people or of cities, often is the conformation of the land...mountains...lika Appennini...
> 
> So in Italy the HSL cost a lot more than other countries,because of the population, the territory and also beacuse of the cost of the improvements of the actual network that is already quite exstensive. I
> 
> n Spain the situation is different...they are creating infrastructure that don't exist and often the build through quite desertic lands.
> 
> Here the actual italian and spanish network:


[/QUOTE]

Cause Spain is the second largest country in EU (499.542 km²) and Italy is 294,020 km².

Besides, Italy have more population than Spain

Italy--> 58.133.509 (2006) 
Spain--> 44.395.286 (2006) BUT 40.202.160 (in 2001) and the inmigrant incoming is 660.000 per year.

So historically, Spain was bigger than Italy and the population was lower, it maybe can explain these maps


----------



## pflo777

660 000 people are immigrating per year?

Where do they come from? do you have a source for that?

Did the governemnt set any limit, what they regard as maximum for Spain?

I mean, in 10 years, Spain will have 50 mio people if it goes on like that...


----------



## Guest

pflo777 said:


> 660 000 people are immigrating per year?
> 
> Where do they come from? do you have a source for that?
> 
> Did the governemnt set any limit, what they regard as maximum for Spain?
> 
> I mean, in 10 years, Spain will have 50 mio people if it goes on like that...


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=455003



Skylandman said:


> Spain's immigration explosion second only to US
> 
> 22 March 2007
> 
> In the past five years, Spain has become the country which receives the second highest number of immigrants after the U.S.
> 
> A report by the BBVA Bank Foundation found half of the new arrivals came to stay in Spain and had no intention of returning home.
> 
> The *average number of arrivals was 600,000 a year*.
> 
> Eight out of ten new members of the population are foreigners, says the report, called the Demographics of Foreigners.
> 
> “The intensity of migration to Spain has never been so strong as in the past six years,” said Antonio Izquierdo, professor of sociology at the University of Cordoba, who wrote the report.
> 
> He said Spain, in contrary to other European countries, was *not just a target of emigration but “installation”.*
> 
> Latin Americans continued to make up the largest number of arrivals, with 193,000 last year.
> 
> But Eastern Europeans were the fastest rising group, with 148,000 in 2006.
> 
> The same year, there were 98,000 EU citizens, 101,295 Africans and 31,275 Asians.
> 
> There were no clear figures for North Americans
> 
> http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=81&story_id=37954
> 
> 
> 
> *España se convierte en el segundo país de destino de los inmigrantes*
> 
> Un 10,8% de la población es estrangera
> 
> En España hay 4,1 millones de extranjeros, a los que se suman 700.000 que han obtenido la nacionalidad, es decir, el 10,8% de la población, la mayor intensidad inmigratoria de la historia de España, que ha convertido al país en el segundo con más inmigrantes, después de Estados Unidos.
> 
> La entrada de extranjeros a España entre 2000 y 2006 alcanzó un promedio
> 
> http://www.lavanguardia.es/gen/2007...dos-latinoamerica-gran-bretanya-asturias.html


THE 10,8% OF THE SPANISH POPPULATION IS FOREIGN


----------



## Kika

^^ I am sorry @Frozen but the size of Spain is 504.782 km2


----------



## Guest

Kika said:


> ^^ I am sorry @Frozen but the size of Spain is 504.782 km2


Yep, this is the total of the surface (sea + land). The number i wrote is the surface inland, not counting the sea territory


----------



## TohrAlkimista

I hope u will manage this immigration well...it Italy in some parts has become a problem...


----------



## Guest

TohrAlkimista said:


> I hope u will manage this immigration well...it Italy in some parts has become a problem...


The percentage of inmigrant in Italy is remmarkably lower than spanish one. I think integration needs both parts, not only inmigrant. We used to forget that inmigrant people have a rich culture, everyone.


----------



## TohrAlkimista

frozen said:


> The percentage of inmigrant in Italy is remmarkably lower than spanish one. I think integration needs both parts, not only inmigrant. We used to forget that inmigrant people have a rich culture, everyone.


of course, I did not say the contrary...hno: 


but I also say that immigration is not an easy thing...


----------



## Guest

TohrAlkimista said:


> of course, I did not say the contrary...hno:
> 
> 
> but I also say that immigration is not an easy thing...


Yep, you are right. Sorry


----------



## Kika

frozen said:


> Yep, this is the total of the surface (sea + land). The number i wrote is the surface inland, not counting the sea territory


Wrong, this is the total surface of the Spanish territory including the islands and the northern African territories. Why would I count the sea anyway?


----------



## growingup

There are important movements of inmigration in Spain right now, mainly from Latin America, obviously; but also an increasing inmigration from eastern Europe and Africa, plus those europeans (British,Germans... ) who choose our country to retire. I hope this inmigration is integrated well along the years, fistly because they are a very important part of our economic development and secondly, to avoid riots as those that happened in France. It is always good to learn from diferent cultures and the Iberian peninsula (Portugal and Spain) has been always a bridge between Western Europe and Africa during the middle ages, and later on, Latin America. Spanish and Portugal cultures are a mix of European, Jew and Arabic traditions.
Aniway returning to the matter, here are some more pics of HST on Spain:
AVE-S100 (GEC Alsthom):
























AVE-S102 (Talgo 350)
































Adif testing Talgo 350:








AVE-S103 (Siemens Velaro):
































AVE-S120 (CAF/Alsthom):








AVE-S130 (Talgo):


----------



## picassoborseli

It will not matter how hard Spain's effort is to develop the country. Others will say that thanks to "their" money Spain is able to built infrastructure like the HSL. No matter how many times we explain that Spain's poorest regions receive the money from the European Union. And that the greatest part of the projects ar fund by the spanish gouvernment and several enterprises...

But that is not their real problem. They are just jalous about the fact that Spain will be a richer country than theirs. When they take a look to the images of new HSL-lines. they look back to the past when Spain was a poor country and when Spaniards always had to look up to the others. 
Time is changing and Spain is a devolopped country like France, UK, germany, Italy and The Netherlands. 

There's nothing wrong there and those countries are wonderfull in their specific way! Spain has it's bad and good things, like any other country.
This threat is talking about Spanish HSL. If you think it's crap, don't post your crap, because in Spain they allready know that you think In Spain "Things can't be better than in nothern Europe".


----------



## ^Anton^

^^
:applause: :applause: :applause:


----------



## Guest

^^ 
:applause: :applause: :applause: 

According to Spanish president Spain will be the first country in number of High speed reilway in the world in 2010.

Spain is changing "its skin" and becoming one of the most advanced countries(laws, infrastructures, economy,...)


----------



## TohrAlkimista

yes, I agree with picassoborseli, you used and you are using very well the european financial programmes for the less developed areas. Spain will become one of the main worldwide economies in 10 years!


----------



## growingup

Oh come on! Will this comments one day come to an end?
Spain is already "one of the main worldwide economies". Acording to the World Bank Spain is the eight largest economy in the world. It is also the fastest growing economy in the UE15 at around rates of 3.5%. Yes, we should be in the G8, but that's not our purpose. 
Spain has to be focused on improving more and further away. We have to look 32 years ago, when we were under a dictatorship, an just a little further ahead, 60 years, when our country was isolated economically from the rest of the world after the Axis, which were Spanish allies during that time, surrendered; and when all our infrastructures were badly damaged because of the Spanish Civil War.
We have walked with giant steps since the return of democracy to our country. Our economy has literally "boomed" and our biggest enterprises are taken in consideration worldwide, such as Telefónica, BSCH, BBVA, Acciona, FCC, ACS, Inditex, Iberia... among many others.
Returning to infrastructures, yes, we have received "Cohesion funds" (that's how "their" money is called) and we did with them what we had to, we invested them, and what's more, we invested them extremely wisely. Spanish government and Spanish infrasctructures development companies have created an unique way of building infrastructures, reducing costs and increasing revenues. In fact, in the world of concessions for infrastructure development, Spanish companies lead the international market. Six of the 10 top transportation concession companies are based in Spain, constructing and/or managing about 40 percent of all major transportation concessions in the world. Spanish companies are taking their knowledge and experience into an increasing number of markets each year. Currently, Spain has also the largest highway network in Europe with more than 13000 km, and it is still growing.
The government has realised the next main step in developing our infrastructures is improving our poor railroads, focusing on HSL and HST. And, as frozen said, according to our President, Spain will be the first country in number of High Speed Lines Km in the world in 2010, and the targets are even bigger for 2020.
So, please, stop bringing down Spanish efforts. As an interesting note, Spanish society is not concious of its own development, and it is not until Spaniards travel abroad that they do realise that we are in a very strong position among many other developed countries... and this mentality is what make us to improve day after day, thinking we can do much better, with many milestones to achieve, and that there are many things to solve and work out yet.
Oh, and just to finish, Spanish will not benefit from more Cohesion Funds in a short period of time, not to take into account that the money we receive now is far less compared with what we received during 1986-2002.


----------



## sdf11

^^ 

:applause: 

:laugh:


----------



## Kika

TohrAlkimista said:


> yes, I agree with picassoborseli, you used and you are using very well the european financial programmes for the less developed areas. Spain will become one of the main worldwide economies in 10 years!


Unfortunately we cannot say the same for southern Italy… Why don’t you guys use the European funds as they very well do in Spain? Is it the high level of corruption, the mafia or you just don’t have any projects where to invest these European funds that Italy equally needs? It's a real pity because many areas and not only in the south are desperately crying for investments in infrastructures and many other areas. Spain nowadays has definitely nothing to envy to Italy in those aspects…

By the way, Spain is catching up quickly on Italy in all aspects such as the HDI (Human Development Index) that is probably the best indicator on how a country is developed or not and the best in terms of quality of life http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#Top_thirty_countries_.28HDI_range_from_0.965_down_to_0.885.29. Spain is seen to take over Italy by next year and this is by far not just because of these European funds which very much helped the country but should that for sure but should not hide the fact that Spain is economically growing at a quite faster rate than other Western European countries driven mainly by its high internal consumption. I think envy and jealousy or maybe even ignorance make some people writing or saying ignorant comments like those.

I am sorry to be harsh but I am a bit fed up reading these kind of comments too... 

Cheers anyway from Bangalore!

:cheers:


----------



## Già

Kika said:


> Unfortunately we cannot say the same for southern Italy… Why don’t you guys use the European funds as they very well do in Spain? Is it the high level of corruption, the mafia or you just don’t have any projects where to invest these European funds that Italy equally needs?




Both reasons.......!! :mad2:


----------



## Bitxofo

New photos, by Indautxu:



Indautxu said:


> Fotos de varios viajes en estos últimos meses ( un poco cutres, hechas con prisa, pero lo que importa es el documento, oyes)
> 
> 
> Camp de Tarragona, primeros S103 que diviso de cerca...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ese día (como muchos otros) mi Ave de las 08.05 para Madrid va en doble composición.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A ver, aver.... déjame contar.... uno, dos, ...cinco! Cinco Aves posando (bueno, sus morros, claro)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Juegos de señales de salida lado Madrid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...y señales lado Barcelona...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...haz de vías lado Barcelona que el túnel enguye...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Qué monos, los dos posando a ver quién tiene más morro... (dime tú cosa rica...) (con baba incorporada)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Y en la capital del Imperio...... ferroviario..


:drool:


----------



## growingup

wow! great pics Indautxu! and great post Bitxofo! :lol:


----------



## sdf11

Another videos by my self, arriving at Camp de tarragona station, with 6 ave's :nuts: :

1 Pato in double composition
2 Patos in single composition
1 Velaro e in double composition












:cheers:


----------



## Bitxofo

^^Impressive!

THX!!
:bowtie:


----------



## SkyLerm

Wooow thx for sharing it mate :drool:


----------



## amagaldu

veeery nice video, sdf11.. :yes: 

btw, about one of the most commented topics on this thread, I was listening to the bbc europe news and they told about todays new almston speed record and of course they mentioned germany and japan and maglev and china and even talked about a hypothetical hsl between SF and LA but they didn´t use the word spain one single time.. :lol:


----------



## poponoso

*
Amazing development that has carried out the spanish high speed network; an example for the rest of the countries. I hope my country could develop such an impressive infrastructure... Let's see...*


----------



## Napo

Kika said:


> Unfortunately we cannot say the same for southern Italy… Why don’t you guys use the European funds as they very well do in Spain? Is it the high level of corruption, the mafia or you just don’t have any projects where to invest these European funds that Italy equally needs? It's a real pity because many areas and not only in the south are desperately crying for investments in infrastructures and many other areas. Spain nowadays has definitely nothing to envy to Italy in those aspects…
> 
> By the way, Spain is catching up quickly on Italy in all aspects such as the HDI (Human Development Index) that is probably the best indicator on how a country is developed or not and the best in terms of quality of life http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#Top_thirty_countries_.28HDI_range_from_0.965_down_to_0.885.29. Spain is seen to take over Italy by next year and this is by far not just because of these European funds which very much helped the country but should that for sure but should not hide the fact that Spain is economically growing at a quite faster rate than other Western European countries driven mainly by its high internal consumption. I think envy and jealousy or maybe even ignorance make some people writing or saying ignorant comments like those.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I am surprised for what you have written. You have denigrated my country, Italy, for no reason. Italy does not have nothing to envy Spain. Italy, unlike Spain, has firms known all over the world: Ferrari, AlfaRomeo, Maserati, Dolce&Gabbana, Valentino, Versace, Armani, Bulgari, Lamborghini etc… and great companies (unlike Spain): STM (world third constructor of microchip), AgustaWestland (world major productor of helicopters), ENEL (one of the major electricity giants of the world, that it has acquired the Spanish ENDESA :yes: ), ENI (world sixt oil company), Unicredit (third largest bank in Europe) FIAT (one of the world largest cars manufacturers).....and many others.
> 
> GDP in 2006 (CIA WORLD FACTBOOK)
> Italy: $1.780 trillion
> Spain: $1.07 trillion
> 
> ps: I love Spain and the spanish, and I am happy for its economic development  . I'm sorry for have interrupted your conversation.


----------



## TohrAlkimista

Napo said:


> I am surprised for what you have written. You have denigrated my country, Italy, for no reason. Italy does not have nothing to envy Spain. Italy, unlike Spain, has firms known all over the world: Ferrari, AlfaRomeo, Maserati, Dolce&Gabbana, Valentino, Versace, Armani, Bulgari, Lamborghini etc… and great companies (unlike Spain): STM (world third constructor of microchip), AgustaWestland (world major productor of helicopters), ENEL (one of the major electricity giants of the world, that it has acquired the Spanish ENDESA :yes: ), ENI (world sixt oil company), Unicredit (third largest bank in Europe) FIAT (one of the world largest cars manufacturers).....and many others.
> 
> GDP in 2006 (CIA WORLD FACTBOOK)
> Italy: $1.780 trillion
> Spain: $1.07 trillion
> 
> ps: I love Spain and the spanish, and I am happy for its economic development  . I'm sorry for have interrupted your conversation.


Napo you really don't need to answer to such ignorant people who wrote these things, you don't need to list italian companies...that's better maintain those to their convictions...:cheers:


----------



## Skylandman

Ok guys, can we just now stick back to HST and HSL in Spain, or is out there any other italian willing to post here maps of his country train network, pictures or listing italians brands?

Don´t you have an italian forum for those kind of issues?
If you don´t feel in the mood of talking about that stuff in your own local forum, just press the "create a new thread" link in this subforum and go all for it, but keep this thread clean please.


----------



## Guest

Napo said:


> By the way, Spain is catching up quickly on Italy in all aspects such as the HDI (Human Development Index) that is probably the best indicator on how a country is developed or not and the best in terms of quality of life http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#Top_thirty_countries_.28HDI_range_from_0.965_down_to_0.885.29. Spain is seen to take over Italy by next year and this is by far not just because of these European funds which very much helped the country but should that for sure but should not hide the fact that Spain is economically growing at a quite faster rate than other Western European countries driven mainly by its high internal consumption. I think envy and jealousy or maybe even ignorance make some people writing or saying ignorant comments like those.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I am surprised for what you have written. You have denigrated my country, Italy, for no reason. Italy does not have nothing to envy Spain. Italy, unlike Spain, has firms known all over the world: Ferrari, AlfaRomeo, Maserati, Dolce&Gabbana, Valentino, Versace, Armani, Bulgari, Lamborghini etc… and *great companies (unlike Spain): *STM (world third constructor of microchip), AgustaWestland (world major productor of helicopters), ENEL (one of the major electricity giants of the world, that it has acquired the Spanish ENDESA :yes: ), ENI (world sixt oil company), Unicredit (third largest bank in Europe) FIAT (one of the world largest cars manufacturers).....and many others.
> 
> GDP in 2006 (CIA WORLD FACTBOOK)
> Italy: $1.780 trillion
> Spain: $1.07 trillion
> 
> ps: I love Spain and the spanish, and I am happy for its economic development  . I'm sorry for have interrupted your conversation.




Ignorance is dared 

Italy 13 million + than Spain 


Well maybe ZARA (his spanish owner is 8 person richest in the world) one ,or the first mark in clothes in all continents, REPSOL (9th company of petrol), SANTANDER BANK (have the third bank in UK and the most important bank in south america:mexico,argentina,...); Ferrovial (contruction company with which has british airports) IBERDROLA: bought this year Scottish electricity company and is the first electrical company in renewable energy in the world;
TELEFONICA one of the ten most important companies of telecommunication in the world; INDRA; BBVA (one of the most important banks of whole america, it became this year one of the most important banks of the south of USA), ENDESA (which it was bought by italian ENEL and Spanish ACCIONA. The spanish ACCIONA will have one action more than ENEL so it will decide  ) 

The situation of spanish companies compared in 5 years have nothing to do. They are strengthen faster....
The spanish companies and our economy it's burning:



lynux said:


> *España es el tercer país que más dinero mueve en opas y fusiones*
> 
> *Este tipo de operaciones alcanzaron el pasado año un importe de 190.000
> millones*
> *
> En el 2006 registró una cifra récord, sólo superada por EE.UU. y el Reino Unido *
> 
> Opa es el término de moda en la Bolsa española. Y no sólo porque estas operaciones hayan florecido como nunca en los últimos meses, sino también porque, según todas las previsiones, seguirán dando mucho que hablar a lo largo de todo el año, un ejercicio en el que muchos aseguran que podría superarse el récord alcanzado en el 2006. El año pasado, las fusiones y adquisiciones empresariales movieron en España 190.000 millones de euros. Esta histórica cifra situó al español como el tercer mercado más activo del mundo, sólo por detrás de Estados Unidos y el Reino Unido.
> 
> Los movimientos registrados en el sector energético, en el que se fraguaron algunas de las mayores operaciones del año, como la opa lanzada por la alemana E.On sobre Endesa o la oferta de Iberdrola por Scottish Power, tuvieron mucho que ver en la consecución de este hito. No en vano, el importe de las fusiones y adquisiciones protagonizadas por las empresas energéticas acaparó casi la mitad del total, con 82.773 millones, según un informe elaborado por el grupo de servicios financiero Atlas Capital.
> 
> *En total, las compañías españolas realizaron compras en el extranjero por valor de 113.149 millones de euros, casi un 60% más que en el 2005. *
> 
> *Batiendo marcas *
> 
> A nivel mundial, el volumen de estas operaciones corporativas se acercó a los tres billones de euros, un importe que supuso pulverizar el máximo anterior, establecido en el 2000, cuando, en plena burbuja tecnológica, las compañías se lanzaron a una frenética carrera de compras.
> 
> Los analistas lo tienen claro: *el ejercicio en curso seguirá siendo prolífico en este tipo de transacciones. La reforma de la ley de opas, la favorable coyuntura económica y el nuevo marco fiscal lo harán posible*. En sentido, recuerdan que las consolidaciones sectoriales están a la orden del día en toda Europa. La de los grupos energéticos ya ha arrancado; la de las aerolíneas y la de las compañías tabaqueras está a punto de fructificar, y la del sector bancario se está haciendo esperar, pero acabará llegando.
> 
> *Quinielas*
> 
> En las quinielas sobre los candidatos a recibir ofertas figuran nombres como Bankinter, NH Hoteles, Unión Fenosa o BBVA; mientras que los nombres que más suenan para protagonizar nuevas compras dentro y fuera de las fronteras españolas son los de Abertis, Gas Natural o Altadis.
> 
> http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/se_economia/noticia.jsp?CAT=108&TEXTO=5682670



*Anyway, it is a high speed railway post, so please dont provoke here hno: . You can see how marvellous high speed railways we have in Spain, i hope Italy could contruct them too.*


----------



## gincan

Jeeezzzz stop the flaming!!!

This is a thread about Spanish Highspeed Rail, NOT what country has what and who's the mac. I come to this thread to see construction photos from Spain, NOT to read about Italy or Italian Trains or Italian brands, if you want to post about Italy start a NEW tread in a oftopic forum or if you want to post about Italian Trains start a tread about that and post pictures but NOT here.

MODS or ADIMS please delete all oftopic posts in this thread, or lock it cause now it is mearly a flame thread.


----------



## Napo

frozen said:


> Ignorance is dared
> 
> Italy 13 million + than Spain
> 
> 
> Well maybe ZARA (his spanish owner is 8 person richest in the world) one ,or the first mark in clothes in all continents, REPSOL (9th company of petrol), SANTANDER BANK (have the third bank in UK and the most important bank in south america:mexico,argentina,...); Ferrovial (contruction company with which has british airports) IBERDROLA: bought this year Scottish electricity company and is the first electrical company in renewable energy in the world;
> TELEFONICA one of the ten most important companies of telecommunication in the world; INDRA; BBVA (one of the most important banks of whole america, it became this year one of the most important banks of the south of USA), ENDESA (which it was bought by italian ENEL and Spanish ACCIONA. The spanish ACCIONA will have one action more than ENEL so it will decide  )
> 
> The situation of spanish companies compared in 5 years have nothing to do. They are strengthen faster....
> The spanish companies and our economy it's burning:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Anyway, it is a high speed railway post, so please dont provoke here hno: . You can see how marvellous high speed railways we have in Spain, i hope Italy could contruct them too.*



Yes yes, Spain is the most developped and richest country in the world, the spanish companies are the biggest on the planet, and spanish trains are the better in Europe. Ok? 
But this doesn't mean that you can insult my country. You must be more modest, and you must have more respect for the others countries, many of which are more developped, more important, and richer than Spain.
This thread is called "new HSL in Spain", no "Spain vs Italy" or "Spain vs Germany" or "Spain vs England". If you want to say these things open a new thread:"Spain, the better country in the world". 
I hope that this (Off Topic) dicussion ends now.

Saludos a todos amigos espanoles :wave:


----------



## sdf11

frozen said:


> Ignorance is dared
> 
> Italy 13 million + than Spain
> 
> 
> Well maybe ZARA (his spanish owner is 8 person richest in the world) one ,or the first mark in clothes in all continents, REPSOL (9th company of petrol), SANTANDER BANK (have the third bank in UK and the most important bank in south america:mexico,argentina,...); Ferrovial (contruction company with which has british airports) IBERDROLA: bought this year Scottish electricity company and is the first electrical company in renewable energy in the world;
> TELEFONICA one of the ten most important companies of telecommunication in the world; INDRA; BBVA (one of the most important banks of whole america, it became this year one of the most important banks of the south of USA), ENDESA (which it was bought by italian ENEL and Spanish ACCIONA. The spanish ACCIONA will have one action more than ENEL so it will decide  )
> 
> The situation of spanish companies compared in 5 years have nothing to do. They are strengthen faster....
> The spanish companies and our economy it's burning:
> 
> 
> *Anyway, it is a high speed railway post, so please dont provoke here hno: . You can see how marvellous high speed railways we have in Spain, i hope Italy could contruct them too.*



Only a little things: Santander bank is the major bank in the EuroZone, and telefonica the third largest telecomunications in the World, Iberdrola when finish to bought Scottish will be the third largest energy in Europe.

Of course that Italy now it's more powerful than spain, but you can't say that Spain is poorer that our country beacause I think that the quality of life in our city's are better than you.

I can't understand why all the "old" powerful countries in Europe (France, Italy...) want to remember to Spain that is poorer that them...

The time, will say all...


----------



## Guest

Napo said:


> Yes yes, Spain is the most developped and richest country in the world, the spanish companies are the biggest on the planet, and spanish trains are the better in Europe. Ok?
> But this doesn't mean that you can insult my country. You must be more modest, and you must have more respect for the others countries, many of which are more developped, more important, and richer than Spain.
> This thread is called "new HSL in Spain", no "Spain vs Italy" or "Spain vs Germany" or "Spain vs England". If you want to say these things open a new thread:"Spain, the better country in the world".
> I hope that this (Off Topic) dicussion ends now.
> 
> Saludos a todos amigos espanoles :wave:


:nuts: :nuts: Can't understand anything... you came here just to provoke, so please, dont give advises. If you want to talk about Spanish HSL, nice. If not, go away and don't troll the thread


----------



## Falcon83

frozen said:


> According to Spanish president Spain will be the first country in number of High speed reilway in the world in 2010.


...and the Italians are going to give you the electricity to make it work...


----------



## sdf11

^^ 

Congratulations!! hno:


----------



## Già

sdf11 said:


> Of course that Italy now it's more powerful than spain, but you can't say that Spain is poorer that our country beacause I think that the quality of life in our city's are better than you.
> 
> I can't understand why all the "old" powerful countries in Europe (France, Italy...) want to remember to Spain that is poorer that them...
> 
> The time, will say all...


Quote Quote Quote


----------



## Già

Falcon83 said:


> ...and the Italians are going to give you the electricity to make it work...


Stupido e infantile


----------



## growingup

Am I wrong or the title of the post isn't "Spain: Economic Facts and Comparaison with Italian's Economy and its Worldwide Brands". I might be getting blind lately...
Let's start with "Napo", a modesty example for us all, users of SSC:


Napo said:


> Spain is really developing? But late. In the rest of Europe the first high velocity lines were constructed 30 years ago. The first european high speed line have been the "Direttissima" Rome-Florenze, in Italy. You will end to them alone in 2020 :lol: .


Who started the discussion in here? What happened is that Spanish forumers replied to your post and they showed how wrong you were. But I'll repeat again what they said before. 30 years ago, only the French (in Europe) had a full high speed line set up and running between Paris and Lyon in 1981 with its world famous TGV with top speeds of 300Km/h. What you had was a TAV line whose construction began in 1970 and only a FIRST STAGE was opened back in 1978. Its construction ended finally in 1991. It's average was 206Km/h and it tops 250Km/h. Spain was JUST one year behind you, since our firt truly HSL opened in april 1992 between Madrid and Seville with speeds as high as 300Km/h and larger than Roma-Florence one.


Napo said:


> The Italian High Speed train is the ETR500 (built in Italy by an Italian company, AnsaldoBreda, with technologies developed in Italy, not like in Spain, whose high velocity trains are constructed by French (Alstom) and German(Siemens) companies, with French and German technologies, not spanish.)


While our first HST were based on French technolgies, they were modified for Spanish needs and they were constructed in Spain. I guess you didn't know that. To give facts and not to leave just words here without facts, I'll leave an ALSTOM document that supports my post. Here's the LINK.
Have you ever heard about Talgo or CAF, both of them Spanish? You said you did, but I suppose you didn't thought about them when you wrote that statement above.
Talgo is best known for a design of articulated railway passenger cars in which the wheels are mounted in pairs, but not joined by an axle, and being between rather than underneath the individual coaches. Another feature of the design is the suspension, which allows the vehicle to passively tilt into curves, aiding passenger comfort.
The first successful European tilting train designs were imagined by Talgo, developed in the 1970s as a lightweight, fast train using passive tilt, but the first commercial service of these tilting trains really appeared in the beginning of the eighties, with the Canadian Turbo-Train as a second generation of TALGO. The TALGO is still in production in its 21st generation. TALGO trains are in service in various parts of Europe, and built under licence in Latin America and Asia. In North America, Amtrak uses TALGO trainsets in its Cascades service in the US Northwest, having earlier experimented with them in the Northeast Corridor.
Talgo also introduced Variable Gauge Axles as a need to change the gauge between the Spanish and French borders. It has been used in other places such as China, Russia and Kazakhstan.
Talgo history is full of achievements and has entered recently the HST market with its Talgo 350, designed for a top speed of 330Km/h. It is one of the fastes trains on commercial use around the world and in tests, it reached 368Km/h on spanish tracks with an usual commercial composition and without too much hassle. As an interesting note, Talgo Pendular passenger cars reached an atonishing speed of 500Km/h in a Test Bank in Switzerland back in 1990, very similar to its TGV counterpart.
Spanish High Speed fleet includes some different types of trains, but mainly Spanish developed ones as you can see here: 18 units S-100 (Alstom), 6 units S-101 (Alstom), 16 (30 U/C) units S-102 (Talgo/Bombardier 350), 16 (10 U/C) S-103 (Siemens Velaro), 20 units S-104 (CAF/Alstom), 12 unit S-120 (CAF/Alstom), 26 units S-130 (Talgo/Bombardier)... not to carry on.
In term of HSLs, Spain has already +1000 Km on service (+300Km/h) of them. I believe, and I've made a deep research, that's already larger than the Italian one, if you, Napo, insist in compairing our HSLs system. Our goverment intends to have built and on service 2230Km of them in 2010; and in 2020, 7000Km. The government and its opposition are aware of how important these developments are as Spanish society see "the arrival" of the AVE to their city as a sign of progress. In fact, the government invested another 800 million € for the AVE last 30/3/2007.


Napo said:


> Yes yes, Spain is the most developped and richest country in the world, the spanish companies are the biggest on the planet, and spanish trains are the better in Europe. Ok?
> But this doesn't mean that you can insult my country. You must be more modest, and you must have more respect for the others countries, many of which are more developped, more important, and richer than Spain.
> This thread is called "new HSL in Spain", no "Spain vs Italy" or "Spain vs Germany" or "Spain vs England". If you want to say these things open a new thread:"Spain, the better country in the world".
> I hope that this (Off Topic) dicussion ends now.
> 
> Saludos a todos amigos espanoles :wave:


You cannot say we started these "insults". You made a post arguing that Spanish companies are not known worldwide, we answered you. You said Spain was not developing fast, we gave you facts.
We didn't "denigrate" anyone here. You cannot say Spanish companies are not known or that Spain is developing lately in regards with HST or HSL and saying that this disccussion is ended without letting the other part involved to answer you back.
Sdf11 gave you some data, so did frozen and so will I again.
Spain is not the most developed country, neither the richest or the most important, but you cannot "take away" the one we have. 
Spanish companies ARE known worldwide... Telefonica, third largest communication group in the whole world, just behind Veizon and NTT Docomo; Repsol, one of the biggest petrol enterprises in the world; BSCH, the largest bank in Europe and Latin America; BBVA, another bank building its own empire in south-eastern USA -where it's already the largest bank- and Latin America and among the biggest ones in the world.
Spanish construction companies lead the run: Acciona, ACS, FCC, OHL, Ferrovial, Sacyr-Vallehermoso... Six of the 10 top transportation concession companies are based in Spain, constructing and/or managing about 40 percent of all major transportation concessions in the world. Spanish companies are taking their knowledge and experience into an increasing number of markets each year. Indra is the leading Information Technology and Defense Systems company. A third of the world’s air traffic is managed by countries that use systems developed by Indra and ticketing systems developed for underground railway systems, such as those in Madrid, Barcelona, Paris, Shanghai, Athens and Santiago de Chile are developed by Indra too.
ZARA and all its other stores: Pull & Bear, Massimo Dutti, Bershka and Stradivarius (INDITEX), group which have stores all around the globe. Spanish fashion designers are also worldwide known as Manolo Blahnik (That famous shoes which make Hollywood actress go mad), Victorio & Lucchino, Roberto Verino, Adolfo Domínguez, Antonio Miró, Agatha Ruiz de la Prada, Pura López... and many other enterprises related to the clothing world such as El Corte Inglés, Loewe, Camper, Mango, Bershka or Pronovias.
Energy Utilities such as Iberdrola, who its expanding really fast and it's the biggest worldwide in terms of renewable energy, Gas Natural or the already mentioned Acciona. Acciona WILL CONTROL Endesa, Spanish largest utility, not Enel. Acciona will have 50.01 of its stakes and ENEL 49.99. 
To give you more economical facts Spanish market is the third most active one just behind USA and UK.
This is the last time I'm going to talk about the Spanish economy in this thread. It seems that any post a Spanish forumer does becomes a debate about our economy. We arent the center of the world, we know it, but we are not undeveloped and our enterprises AREN'T NOT known.
This post was about HSL and has become a battle between Spain and Italy. I believe no Spanish forumer started this battle. Anyway as many others said many times... time will say...
"Our convictions" are to learn from what others do, make it better if is possible, and apply it to our needs. We learned from the TGV, a great HST and HSL system with no rival right now.
By the way, Spanish GDP(2005) is 1,236 Trillion $ (IFM) or 1,115 Trillion $ (World Bank)


----------



## Falcon83

Già said:


> Stupido e infantile


è la verità, babbeo.


----------



## Cicerón

We were talking about a high speed line, weren't we?


----------



## Bitxofo

STOP WiTH THAT!!
>(
You are childish.
:sleepy:
This thread is for High Speed Trains in Spain.


----------



## Karakuri

picassoborseli said:


> It will not matter how hard Spain's effort is to develop the country. Others will say that thanks to "their" money Spain is able to built infrastructure like the HSL. No matter how many times we explain that Spain's poorest regions receive the money from the European Union. And that the greatest part of the projects ar fund by the spanish gouvernment and several enterprises...
> 
> But that is not their real problem. *They are just jalous about the fact that Spain will be a richer country than theirs*. When they take a look to the images of new HSL-lines. they look back to the past when Spain was a poor country and when Spaniards always had to look up to the others.
> Time is changing and Spain is a devolopped country like France, UK, germany, Italy and The Netherlands.
> 
> There's nothing wrong there and those countries are wonderfull in their specific way! Spain has it's bad and good things, like any other country.
> This threat is talking about Spanish HSL. If you think it's crap, don't post your crap, because in Spain they allready know that you think In Spain "Things can't be better than in nothern Europe".


Who are you talking about? Which country?
IMO all those self pride arguments are pityful.One can be proud of his country without bashing others. Besides claiming that one's country will have the longest HSL network in the world means what? Did the guy who said that took part in any way in that? Is it thanks to him? I think not.
The less we have, the more we talk. It's like posting pictures of fancy cars in your city (see Dubai thread)...like if they're yours hno: ! Better took the Japanese example: I never heard anybody there who was squirting talking about his country beeing the best, his Maglev beeing the fastest, his Tokyo beeing the richest, his Electronic industry beeing the most powerful, or any shit like that.
Those who say Spain is a poor country should travel a little, and those saying crap like "HSL in my country do 20km/h faster than in yours" may be engineers in this sector(if not, they should shut their trap).


----------



## Cicerón




----------



## Xusein

Seeing these high-speed developments...makes me envious.

The US has fallen so behind in High-speed rail, that I don't think we will ever catch up.


----------



## picassoborseli

To stop the discussion, plese post some pics and more details about Spanish HSL in stead of posting how great each country is!


Some pictures of Spanish High Speed trains:










The Euromed Trains:




































AVE 100:




































The Old Ave train & The Duck ("pato")


----------



## amagaldu

I don´t mind if I repeat my words..:

veery nice pics picassoborseli..!! :nuts: 

thanks..!!


----------



## growingup

*AVE's birthday: 15 years of High Speed in Spain.*
*- By 2010, Spain will be the country with the largest High Speed network.*
*- Connections from La Meseta to Galicia and Asturias are still pending.*
El Mundo
Madrid- Seville High Speed Line (HSL), the first in Spain to fulfill those characteristics, began service 15 years ago this saturday. 15 years in which Renfe's fastest train has transported more than 81 million passengers.
Expo '92 could not take away the prominence AVE was worth. Its service, its comfort, and, of course, its speed, has turned it to be passengers' best ally. Today, 15 years ago, nobody could imagine the importance of this railway service. For instance, more than a half of all passengers who used the line, did it in direct services between Madrid and Seville.
As all beginnings, it went little by little. Firstly, just 6 daily trains, then 10, 11, 12, and until the 20 it includes now. Besides, there are services every thirty minutes in rush hours and weekends. Its demand has experienced and ongoing increase in passengers, being diffucult to get a ticket without booking.
Just two hours and a half to bring togheter two cities that were forced to be joined by plane or N-IV highway. It made dissapear long and tiring taffic jams, waiting hours at the airports and made easy a "travelling-worker's life".
Later on, service started in Madrid-Toledo, Madrid-Zaragoza-Huesca and Madrid-Zaragoza-LLeida-Camp de Tarragona lines. This year new stretches will be opened such as Camp de Tarragona-Barcelona, Córdoba-Málaga and Madrid-Valladolid, giving the whole network a total length of 1230 kilometers. But this doesn't stop here. By 2010, Spain will have turned to be the country with the largest Hish Speed network in the world, with 2230Km; surpassing Japan, which will have 2090Km, and France, with will possess 1893Km.
Although AVE has a brigth short-term future, with a 2007 full of lines and trains inaugurations, there are still pending tasks,as the connections with north-western Spain, Galicia and Asturias, which are in informative study; or the Basque "Y".
However, it seems AVE is going to recover in the next years all the building and expanding spirit it lost in 1992, when Madrid-Seville line's 471Km joined the cities in just two hours and a half.
--------
To celebrate it, Renfe is exposing its new HSTs in Madrid and Seville. These are the S-102(Talgo 350), S-103(Siemens Velaro E) and S-130(Talgo), a variable gauge train that will link Madrid with nort-western Spain until HSLs in those places are constructed, using from Valladolid to Madrid the HSL which will be opened later on this year; as it did with Barcelona with the S-120(CAF ATPRD S-120) and Málaga with the Talgo 200. The first Ave's, the French Alstom S-100 are under reforms as a result of a new half-life programme, being the first units reformed exposed during this weekend. 
Exteriors:
























Clase Club:








Clase Preferente:








Clase Turista:








S-102:








S-103:
















































S-130:


----------



## pacman_1905

Spain just continues to amaze me on how well and how quickly it builds its infrastructure. The HSL's is a classic example of this. I just wish that our governments in Australia look at how Spain do it. Here we seem to spend so much on studies, studies and more studies but never get anything done. A good example is the NSW Govt's attempt to build a connection link between the North Shore line and the North Western line within its CityRail network, a relatively small distance compared to what they do in Spain, and it costing us so many billions of dollars and is around 6-7 years behind schedule....

Well done Spain...perhaps some of your larger construction companies could look at Australia for investments. The NSW govt as well as some other state govt's are in favour of Public-Private partnerships which allow them to build infrastructure projects much quicker than if the govt's fund it themselves...

Again well done...


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## Paulo2004

Nice new railway lines.


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## Bitxofo

15 years of high speed trains in Spain: since 20/4/1992.
kay:


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## amagaldu

growingup said:


> S-102:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE]
> 
> the duck..
> 
> unique.. :banana:


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## sdf11

Todo eso estaba en atocha
:nuts: :nuts: 
Simplemente para correrse...
que flota!!!
:drool: :drool: 

madre mi que suerte tenemos...


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## forrestcat

Magnificent!!!

Post more pics of the Velaro please.

Hope Malaysia gets the Velaro to run on its planned KL-S'pore HSL.


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## Prestonian

Beautiful! Thanks for the pics!


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## growingup

A great pic from Sanlucar-Playa:


Sanlucar-Playa said:


> De la vía 5 de Camp de Tarragona sale el tren 09888 con destino Madrid, formado por las ramas 04 y 16 de le serie 102. En la vía 4 vemos la rama 07 de la serie 103, y en el aire un avión que en breves instantes aterrizará en el cercano aeropuerto de Reus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El tren tardaría 26 minutos en llegar a Lérida. Para acceder a la autopista AP-7 (9,8 Km aproximadamente) necesité 40 minutos.


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## sdf11

A few videos by my self: all of these videos are recordered in the HSL Madrid-Barcelona, between Zaragoza Delicias Station and Lleida Pirineus Station.

Renfe ALVIA:
















Renfe AVE Alta Velocidad Española: (Spanish High Speed)

















Bye :cheers:


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## sdf11

This morning at 6:30 the first Siemens velaro (renfe Ave S103) did the first commercial service between Madrid-Zaragoza-Camp de Tarragona. 

Maybe in the next days we will have some photos about this beautiful train.


----------



## sdf11

En España, en el pasado mes de abril, con un tren serie 102 en doble y circulando a la velocidad máxima de 300 km/h se hizo el recorrido de Madrid Puerta de Atocha a Camp de Tarragona (por los by passes) en 1 hora y 57 minutos sin rebasar las velocidades máximas lo que supone una media de 267,12 km/h. El tiempo con que se prevé empezar la explotación de la línea de Madrid a Barcelona para los trenes sin paradas (y de momento a velocidad máxima de 300 km/h) es de 2 horas y 35 minutos es decir, a una media de 240,4 km/h. 

El récord de los franceses está en:

263,3 km/h de media entre Lyon y St Exupéry que hay 289.6 kms, con topes de 320 km/h en 2005.


Por lo tanto es NUEVO RECORD MUNDIAL. Y encima con más mérito, sólo 300 km/h y durante 572 kms!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In English:

In Spain, in the last April, with a train series 102 in double composition and circulating to the maximum speed of 300 km/h did the travel between Madrid-Puerta de Atocha to Campo de Tarragona (for the by passes) in 1 hour and 57 minutes without the maximum speeds exceeded what supposes an average of 267,12 km/h. The time with which it is foreseen to begin the explotation(development) of the line of Madrid to Barcelona for the trains without stops (and at the moment to maximum speed of 300 km/h) is 2 hours and 35 minutes is to say, to an average of 240,4 km/h. 
The record of the French rail is in:

263,3 km/h of average between(among) Lyons and St Exupéry that there are 289.6 kms, with ceilings of 320 km/h in 2005.


Therefore it is A NEW WORLD RECORD. And above with more merit, only 300 km/h and during 572 kms!!!


I don't know if it's correct, please, change some words if are incorrect


----------



## sdf11

Javipena82 said:


> Mañana, como ya sabeis, se estrenan los 103 en tres servicios por sentido entre Madrid y Camp de Tarragona, y para comprobar que todo funciona a la perfección, se han ido realizando varios viajes de pruebas durante las últimas semanas.
> 
> En dos de estos viajes ha ido personal de Renfe y Adif como viajeros y en uno de ellos, concretamente el pasado miércoles, tuve la oportunidad de viajar, por lo que os adjunto unas fotillos de dicho viaje de presentación. ¡Que las disfruteis!
> 
> Un saludo,
> Javier Peña
> 
> 
> Foto 1: 103.007 entrando en Zaragoza-Delicias.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foto 2: 103.007 recién llegado a la estación de Camp de Tarragona.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fotos 3 y 4: Diversas fotos del 103.007 en Camp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foto 5: Foto de familia.


:nuts: :nuts: 



Javipena82 said:


> Fotos del interior del tren:
> 
> Clase Club:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clase Preferente:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clase Turista:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cafetería:


:banana: :banana: 

Thank you javi!!!


----------



## growingup

sdf11, Thanks! Great news, especially that new record! I've read comments about it in the spanish forum, but who is ths source and is it trustworthy?
---
sdf11, gracias! Geniales noticias, especialmente el nuevo record. He leído posts en el foro español acerca de ello pero no se ha dicho quien es la fuente de la informición. ¿Renfe?, ¿La misma ADIF?. Si el record es cierto, no dudes en ponerlo en el hilo de records que andará por ahí perdido en este mismo foro. 
EDITO: Éste es el enlace a dicho hilo. Rail Records
Ya de paso añado esta pedazo de foto que he encontrado curioseando por aquí.


----------



## Bitxofo

sdf11 said:


> En España, en el pasado mes de abril, con un tren serie 102 en doble y circulando a la velocidad máxima de 300 km/h se hizo el recorrido de Madrid Puerta de Atocha a Camp de Tarragona (por los by passes) en 1 hora y 57 minutos sin rebasar las velocidades máximas lo que supone una media de 267,12 km/h. El tiempo con que se prevé empezar la explotación de la línea de Madrid a Barcelona para los trenes sin paradas (y de momento a velocidad máxima de 300 km/h) es de 2 horas y 35 minutos es decir, a una media de 240,4 km/h.
> 
> El récord de los franceses está en:
> 
> 263,3 km/h de media entre Lyon y St Exupéry que hay 289.6 kms, con topes de 320 km/h en 2005.
> 
> 
> Por lo tanto es NUEVO RECORD MUNDIAL. Y encima con más mérito, sólo 300 km/h y durante 572 kms!!!
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> In English:
> 
> In Spain, in the last April, with a train series 102 in double composition and circulating to the maximum speed of 300 km/h did the travel between Madrid-Puerta de Atocha to Campo de Tarragona (for the by passes) in 1 hour and 57 minutes without the maximum speeds exceeded what supposes an average of 267,12 km/h. The time with which it is foreseen to begin the explotation(development) of the line of Madrid to Barcelona for the trains without stops (and at the moment to maximum speed of 300 km/h) is 2 hours and 35 minutes is to say, to an average of 240,4 km/h.
> The record of the French rail is in:
> 
> 263,3 km/h of average between(among) Lyons and St Exupéry that there are 289.6 kms, with ceilings of 320 km/h in 2005.
> 
> 
> Therefore it is A NEW WORLD RECORD. And above with more merit, only 300 km/h and during 572 kms!!!
> 
> 
> I don't know if it's correct, please, change some words if are incorrect


Great news!!
:nocrook:


----------



## Cicerón

This post by Tintin is really interesting. I recommend that you have a look. It's full of aerial pictures of the HSL Madrid-Valladolid.

Example:


----------



## Reivajar

sdf11 said:


> En España, en el pasado mes de abril, con un tren serie 102 en doble y circulando a la velocidad máxima de 300 km/h se hizo el recorrido de Madrid Puerta de Atocha a Camp de Tarragona (por los by passes) en 1 hora y 57 minutos sin rebasar las velocidades máximas lo que supone una media de 267,12 km/h. El tiempo con que se prevé empezar la explotación de la línea de Madrid a Barcelona para los trenes sin paradas (y de momento a velocidad máxima de 300 km/h) es de 2 horas y 35 minutos es decir, a una media de 240,4 km/h.
> 
> El récord de los franceses está en:
> 
> 263,3 km/h de media entre Lyon y St Exupéry que hay 289.6 kms, con topes de 320 km/h en 2005.
> 
> 
> Por lo tanto es NUEVO RECORD MUNDIAL. Y encima con más mérito, sólo 300 km/h y durante 572 kms!!!
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> In English:
> 
> In Spain, in the last April, with a train series 102 in double composition and circulating to the maximum speed of 300 km/h did the travel between Madrid-Puerta de Atocha to Campo de Tarragona (for the by passes) in 1 hour and 57 minutes without the maximum speeds exceeded what supposes an average of 267,12 km/h. The time with which it is foreseen to begin the explotation(development) of the line of Madrid to Barcelona for the trains without stops (and at the moment to maximum speed of 300 km/h) is 2 hours and 35 minutes is to say, to an average of 240,4 km/h.
> The record of the French rail is in:
> 
> 263,3 km/h of average between(among) Lyons and St Exupéry that there are 289.6 kms, with ceilings of 320 km/h in 2005.
> 
> 
> Therefore it is A NEW WORLD RECORD. And above with more merit, only 300 km/h and during 572 kms!!!
> 
> 
> I don't know if it's correct, please, change some words if are incorrect



I'm not sure, but I think it isn't correct. A TGV unit has the record of average speed over long distance between Calais and Marseille (1067,2 km) in 3h 29min (an average speed of 306,4 kph).


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## gincan

2h 35min for Madrid-Barcelona is ok but it's alot slower than the original goal of 2h. Wonder if it will be able to compete with air traffic, though the market i huge with 5 million pax.


----------



## Tintin

^^ The original target set by Renfe was 2h30 minutes. With ERTMS II working at full capacity (mid/late 2008) trips could be reduced to just short of 2h15.

Nevertheless, as sdf11 said before, trips below the 150-minute barrier could be easily achieved even with a commercial speed of 300 kph.


----------



## Falubaz

gincan said:


> 2h 35min for Madrid-Barcelona is ok but it's alot slower than the original goal of 2h. Wonder if it will be able to compete with air traffic, though the market i huge with 5 million pax.


i'm sure the train with 2h35min is more than able to compete with planes. u have to remember, that travelling by plane u have to be at the airport at least about one hour befort start and then u have to make a little trip from city center to airport, what takes another 'few minutes'. even after arriving there is another trip from airport to the city. so every journey made by plane takes some 2 h of additional time to the real travel time. and trains usually have their stations in the city center without wasting your time for checking in and long security control /even if in Spain the fast trains have somthing like security check befor boarding/

i think it's a good move to built the Madrid-Barcelona HST line.


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## Cicerón

Falubaz said:


> i'm sure the train with 2h35min is more than able to compete with planes. u have to remember, that travelling by plane* u have to be at the airport at least about one hour befort start* and then u have to make a little trip from city center to airport, what takes another 'few minutes'. even after arriving there is another trip from airport to the city. so every journey made by plane takes some 2 h of additional time to the real travel time. and trains usually have their stations in the city center without wasting your time for checking in and long security control /even if in Spain the fast trains have somthing like security check befor boarding/
> 
> i think it's a good move to built the Madrid-Barcelona HST line.


In the shuttle service (_puente aéreo_) between Madrid and Barcelona you don't need to be at the airport one hour before. 

Anyway, it would be competitive and Iberia will have to reduce the prices.


----------



## arriaca

hkskyline said:


> *Madrid-Barcelona high-speed rail link to open in December: PM *
> 
> BARCELONA, Spain, Aug 2, 2007 (AFP) - A high-speed rail link between Madrid and Barcelona, Spain's second-largest city, will open on December 21, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said Thursday.
> 
> "The works are developing at a good rhythm," he told reporters during a visit to Barcelona.
> 
> The high-speed line already connects the Spanish capital to Camp de Tarragona with crews now working to complete the last leg of the line to Barcelona in northeastern Spain.
> 
> The opening of the final leg will cut journey times from Madrid to Barcelona from just over four hours to 2.5 hours.
> 
> There are over 900 flights a week between Madrid and Barcelona, making it the busiest air route in the world according to global travel and transport information company OAG.
> 
> The opening of the high speed rail link between the two cities is expected to cut air traffic on the route.
> 
> A high-speed rail link has operated since April 1992 between Madrid and Seville in southwestern Spain.





zoltan said:


> *NOTA: Esto es rumorología*, sólo están confirmados oficialmente los días 21 y 22 por parte de J.L. Rodríguez Zapatero.
> 
> *DICIEMBRE*
> 
> *16 de Diciembre: Inauguración LAV de Madrid -Málaga*
> 17 de Diciembre: Puesta en servicio comercial LAV de Madrid - Málaga
> *18 de Diciembre: Inauguración LAV de Valladolid*
> 19 de Diciembre: Puesta en servicio comercial LAV de Madrid - Valladolid
> *21 de Diciembre: Inauguración LAV de Barcelona*
> 22 de Diciembre: Puesta en servicio comercial LAV de Madrid - Barcelona
> 
> 
> 
> Personalmente no me gusta ese calendario, yo prefiero que se inaugure en 3 sábados seguidos, de esa forma, la prensa de los domingos, el día que más se lee la prensa, salga en portada las noticias de las inauguraciones.
> Y tener toda la semana con reportajes, opiniones de pasajeros, etc.. en prensa, radio y TV.
> Así podemos procesar los datos sin agobios.




:dance::dance:​


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## Bitxofo

^^From Barcelona to Madrid in 2 hours 30 min. since December the 22nd, 2007!!
:dance:


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## xote

This is very good news, and means that one of the fastest high speed lines in Europe will be Spanish.

A line that is 670 km long with a top speed of 320 km/h to be traveled in 2.5 hours means that direct trains from Madrid to Barcelona will have an average speed of 270 km/h (about 170 mph for us North Americans )

:drool:

:banana:


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## Bitxofo

^^Commercial speed including stops will be by 270kph.
:yes:
Top speed is around 350kph.
:happy:


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## Brice

it's km/h please, kph is not correct


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## Stewie

Bitxofo said:


> ^^From Barcelona to Madrid in 2 hours 30 min. since December the 22nd, 2007!!
> :dance:


Are you sure? I thought it wouldn't be that fast at first... and if the top speed is going to be 300 km/h insteadof 350 km/h I'm afraid it might take like 3 hours finally.


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## Bitxofo

Stewie said:


> Are you sure? I thought it wouldn't be that fast at first... and if the top speed is going to be 300 km/h insteadof 350 km/h I'm afraid it might take like 3 hours finally.


A Velaro train reached 407 km/h in the tests of the line.
:yes:


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## nastyathenian

This train will solve my problem about visiting Barcelona. This city has usually few hotels available and they are either far away from the center or dumps. On the other hand Madrid has lots of 4-star hotels at affordable prices. Thanks to AVE I’ ll be able to pop out to Barcelona for a few hours for the basic sightseeing and return to Madrid on the same day!


----------



## Trainman Dave

Bitxofo said:


> ^^From Barcelona to Madrid in 2 hours 30 min. since December the 22nd, 2007!!


Highly unlikely on December 22nd 2007. The issue is not the maximum operating speed of the train which permits a theoretical journey time of 2:30.

The problem is that this is a new line and the Spanish Infrastructure authority has never open a new line at the expected operational speed. They always start out with slower speed the ensure that the track and the signaling are all operating within their expected capacity and over time, in a few cases years, they slowly raise the speed limit. I will be studying the December time table with great interest. I expect that there will be one or two trains scheduled for slightly less than three hours in December with most trains running at about 3 hours 15 minutes at first.

By the end of next year, maybe the December 2008 timetable we will probably sees one or two trains operating at 2:30.

Further, Renefe has a policy of refunds when trains run late and to avoid paying to many refunds they tend to actually schedule the AVE trains to Seville at considerably less speed than their potential speed.


----------



## growingup

Well, it may be possible to reach Barcelona from Madrid in around 2 hours and a half, perhaps 2:45 since December 22nd 2007 *in direct services* using the existing by-passes. Remember that not all the line is brand new: Madrid-Camp de Tarragona stretch allows trains to run at 300km/h since May 7th 2007. When the first part of the line was opened (Madrid-Zaragoza-Lérida), trains ran at 200km/h because ERTMS was not ready to go, so ASFA was used instead; later on at 250 testing new ERTMS, then at 280, and finally at 300km/h. However, Lérida-Camp de Tarragona did not follow this process: it was opened at a operating speed of 200km/h and bumped up all together with Madrid-Zaragoza-Lérida to 300km/h. So perhaps, Adif, may set a different opening speed for Camp de Tarragona-Barcelona Sants as it has gained confidence with the european signalling system. In addition, Camp de Tarragona-Sant Boi is already on tests since some time ago I believe, resting only around 10km to reach Barcelona Sants, where the tracks aren't laid out yet.
Well, AVE to Seville doesn't operate "at a considerably less speed" than its potential speed. It takes on direct services 2:15 and its top speed its 300Km/h. It isn't running at its full potential, but Madrid-Seville line isn't as good as these ones that are opening in November-December. It is already 15 years old and it has some parts where trains can't go faster than 80km/h as it may be around Puertollano, where there is a very closed turn for HS standards.
I saw some great graphs comparing Madrid-Seville and Madrid-Camp de Tarragona lines in terms of speed. Madrid-Tarragona was way more "stable" with less peaks.


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## Reivajar

HSL Madrid-Sevilla was originally planed a new railroad corridor -not HSL- from Madrid to Andalusia in wide gauge (NAFA), but it was modified and upgraded before being built in order to become a HSL in UIC gauge. That's why HSL Madrid-Sevilla doesn't allow top speeds permanently. 

Renfe has a policy of refunds in case of delay, but Renfe also gives in its schedules extra-time to trains in order to avoid delays. In other words, usually AVE trains arrive a few minutes before the official timtable. So, probably you never will see a official timetible with an AVE between Madrid and Barcelona operated at 2:30 while top speed is 300 km/h, but you can maybe arrive before the official time and it can be finally 2:30 of journey.


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## Bitxofo

nastyathenian said:


> This train will solve my problem about visiting Barcelona. This city has usually few hotels available and they are either far away from the center or dumps. On the other hand Madrid has lots of 4-star hotels at affordable prices. Thanks to AVE I’ ll be able to pop out to Barcelona for a few hours for the basic sightseeing and return to Madrid on the same day!


What an idiot comment!
:crazy:
Den katalavenos, file mou...
:weird:
And something else: each one way ticket from MAD to BCN will cost 100 euros.
:sleepy:


----------



## Stifler

Bitxofo said:


> And something else: each one way ticket from MAD to BCN will cost 100 euros.


They have already told you it's false in the Spanish forum.

Prices will be from 90€ to 220€ for one return ticket.


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## nastyathenian

Price is not an issue for someone who loves high speed trains. Judging from the pictures, AVE looks very comfortable inside, just as the German ICE. The other option for me is the route Madrid-Seville which costs only 72 Euros one way. But that line is rather old (1992) and I guess trains shake a lot more than on the newer lines. As you know it was Felipe Gonzalez’s present to his native city!


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## Bitxofo

Stifler said:


> They have already told you it's false in the Spanish forum.
> 
> Prices will be from 90€ to 220€ for one return ticket.


^^Cheap prices when you book 2 or 3 months in advance.
:yes:


----------



## gincan

nastyathenian said:


> This train will solve my problem about visiting Barcelona. This city has usually few hotels available and they are either far away from the center or dumps. On the other hand Madrid has lots of 4-star hotels at affordable prices. Thanks to AVE I’ ll be able to pop out to Barcelona for a few hours for the basic sightseeing and return to Madrid on the same day!


When did you visit Barcelona last time, 1980? You know there are now 290 hotels and more than 1/3 of them are 4*, and 20 are 5*. Together they have some 27000+ hotelrooms. And that is only for the city, if you include the hotels to the north and south then you have some 800 hotels with 80000+ hotelrooms to choose from. Hardly what I call few hotels.


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## nastyathenian

gincan said:


> When did you visit Barcelona last time, 1980? You know there are now 290 hotels and more than 1/3 of them are 4*, and 20 are 5*. Together they have some 27000+ hotelrooms. And that is only for the city, if you include the hotels to the north and south then you have some 800 hotels with 80000+ hotelrooms to choose from. Hardly what I call few hotels.


There may be many hotels, but they are booked up several months in advance. Since I don’t like arranging my holidays too early, every time I searched in a well known on-line agency I did not find anything interesting at a logical price. On the contrary, hotels in Madrid are usually available and many of them are centrally located.


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## Bitxofo

nastyathenian said:


> There may be many hotels, but they are booked up several months in advance. Since I don’t like arranging my holidays too early, every time I searched in a well known on-line agency I did not find anything interesting at a logical price. On the contrary, hotels in Madrid are usually available and many of them are centrally located.


Completely FALSE!
hno:
I work for the Tourist Office and we always have hotels available, and we get special rates as 70€ por 3 stars, 80€ for 4 stars and 100€ for 5 stars hotels. This price is per double room, per night.
:yes:


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## arriaca

Cicerón said:


>


:cheers:


----------



## growingup

That was the chart I was talking about... xD. Thanks arriaca.


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## arriaca

De nada. Dáselas a Cicerón que lo posteó en Infraestructuras. 


From Tranvía.org (Pablo):

Talgo S-130 near Valladolid (Garcillán):










Segovia, new station:

Talgo Diesel


----------



## Sr.Horn

This is my first post in this international section of SSC :banana: 
Here are my photos of the new Talgo in december 2006 in Benicarló-Peñíscola Sta., the same train of latest arriaca's post.

Nice sunset :lol: 











and the train that i have arrived Talgo Murcia Lorca from Barcelona, departs to Castellón


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## 33Hz

Did I read somewhere that this Talgo S-130 can or does have sleeper cars?

With the variable gauge, could it provide through service to France until 2012?


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## growingup

There are already official dates from the Spanish Deparment of Public Works for the new HSLs openings in Spain, and they give also estimated times of arrival!:

AVE Madrid-Barcelona:
Opening: December 21st.
First Commercial Services: December 22nd.
Estimated Time: 2 hours and 35 minutes.

AVE Madrid-Valladolid:
Opening: December 22nd.
First Commercial Services: December 23rd.
Estimated Time: 1 hour.

AVE Madrid-Málaga:
Opening: December 23rd.
First Commercial Services: December 24th
Estimated Time: 2 hours and 35 minutes.

It has been confirmed that all new stretches concerning those lines (This is to say Camp de Tarragona-Barcelona, Madrid-Valladolid and Antequera-Málaga) will be opened in ERTMS/ETCS level 1, at speeds of 300km/h maximum. When ETCS level 2 enters in service on 2008, this maximum speeds will be increased up to 350km/h.


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## Bitxofo

^^Madrid-BCN and Madrid-Málaga in 2h 35min?
:?
1st distance is much longer...
:sly:


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## growingup

Considering that Madrid-Málaga uses the first generation HSL (NAFA) from Madrid to Córdoba and starting there uses and all new second generation HSL which allows speed of up to 350km/h, as Madrid-Barcelona HSL, it's allright. Nevertheless, it will start services at a top speed of 300km/h due to the fact that ERTMS/ETCS level 1 only allows speeds up to 300km/h, same thing that happens on Madrid-Barcelona HSL. However, this time is expected to be shortened to 2 hours and 15-20 minutes in 2008 when ERTMS/ETCS level 2 enters in service, allowing speeds up to 350km/h in Córdoba-Málaga newest stretch. Madrid-Barcelona, Madrid-Málaga and Madrid-Seville direct services will be operated all with the same train, AVE S-103. S-100 and S-102 will be used in other services with more stops as they can accelerate faster than the AVE S-103 does.


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## 33Hz

Can any Spanish people give an update on the other LAV projects please?

Thanks.


----------



## Bitxofo

33Hz said:


> Can any Spanish people give an update on the other LAV projects please?
> 
> Thanks.


Line from Madrid to Málaga and line from Madrid to Valladolid will open in December the 23rd.
:yes:


----------



## Richard Mlynarik

33Hz said:


> Can any Spanish people give an update on the other LAV projects please?
> 
> Thanks.


I'm not Spanish and, sadly, don't read or speak Spanish, but if you visit the various SSC
"Infraestructuras de transporte y obras de ingeniería" forums
you'll find everything you could ever wish, including the _absolutely magnificent_ photoreportage of Tintin.

What's happening near-term?
LAV Madrid(Charmartín)-Segovia-Valladolid (180km) and
LAV Madrid(Atocha)-Córdoba-Málaga (of which the new section to open will be the 55km Antequera-Málaga)
are to start commerical service on 23 December.
Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona (of which Camp de Tarragona-Barcelona Sants is new) will _not_ open this year, nor is it likely to open in the first half of next year, due to a tunneling cave-in last month in Bellvitge where the new LAV passes under the existing FGC metro tunnel.

Meanwhile, construction continues on new lines all across the country -- as well as metro and commuter line extensions.
Read -- or just look at the amazing pictures and maps -- in the Spanish Infraestructuras forums and be amazed and envious.


----------



## growingup

Of course we can. Córcoba-Málaga and Madrid-Valladolid lines are "starting to tense their muscles, like an athlete ready to enter into action". They will opened to public on the 23 (Valladolid) and 24 (Málaga) of december.
Testing Adif's Talgo A330 train in Madrid-Valladolid line passing through Segovia's station at 330km/h. Picture from Pablo (http://www.tranvia.org).







[/QUOTE]
First, it's important to say Renfe has implemented a *new, way cheaper, fare system*, mainly with two new kind of tickets. Web ticket offers a 60% discount if you purchase your tickets 15 days before the train departs. However, yo can't change the ticket for other days. You are allowed only to cancel it, paying half of the ticket's price. Nevertheless, you get trains to *Málaga for 30 euros*, *Valladolid fot 12 euros*, or *Zaragoza for 17 euros*. Just on tourist Class. You also have to book separately your go and return tickets. 
Estrella (Star) ticket offers a 40% discount if you purchase the ticket 7 days before train departure and allows you to change the ticket paying an extra-fare but without having to cancel your tickets. Works on both tourist and business class.
Both of this offers depend on availability. Old fares are kept. This new ones do not only apply on HS lines, but in all long distance routes. Renfe has started implementing a new website too, but it will take them sometime to make it work smoothly as I see it.
I think this new fares would be really important to make railways gain more passengers, as many Spaniards preferred the bus since the train was so expensive, specially AVE. So did I, until now... xD. Buses cost just a bit less compared to AVE with these new fares now, but takes longer.
Let's get into the matter, pictures...
Málaga line is completely finished, without major glitches, except for some problems in a tunnel. Tests have started and HS passenger (S-102 Duck and S-103 Velaro) trains have already reached Malaga's new station, at top speeds of 330km/h (Even in those tunnels, so the problems seem solved.).
Pictures from Bule:


bule said:


> Velaros at Antequera Sta-Ana.
> 
> 
> Malaga's Station and Duck S-102:


Valladolid line is also in tests and almost complete, with no problems at all I think. Tintin is just a great teacher when it comes to railways and trains, so I'll let his pictures talk for me:


Tintin said:


> *LAV/AVE Madrid-Segovia-Valladolid:
> La nueva estación UIC de Segovia
> 
> Estado de las obras a 16 de noviembre de 2007​*
> Siguiendo con el repaso de los últimos posts, no podía faltar uno de los puntos singulares de la línea. La estación de Segovia, situada a menos de 2 kilómetros de la boca norte de los túneles de Guadarrama, ya se encuentra prácticamente terminada y se le están dando los últimos retoques a la zona de venta de billetes e instalaciones comerciales.
> 
> Como os comentaba y tal y como hemos visto ya en varias ocasiones en este mismo hilo, la visita a la estación de Segovia necesariamente nos conduce también a la boca del lobo:
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> Si habéis seguido este hilo, podréis comprobar lo mucho que ha cambiado el panorama. La inmensa zona de instalaciones que se encontraba donde ahora mismo descansa la playa de vías ha sido trasladada a la margen E (la izquierda en esta vista):
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> Al fondo, ya podemos ver los 2 falsos túneles que conducen a los tubos que comunican Madrid y Castilla y León:
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> Aquí podemos ver cómo las vías generales (la más exterior) va confluyendo en cota con las vías de estacionamiento (las centrales), con la electrificación ya terminada y testada por parte de los S-120:
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> Desde el otro extremo del paso, la vista sigue siendo (simétricamente) espectacular:
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> Detalle de la confluencia de las vías general y de estacionamiento, en concreto las que se dirigen al norte (pese a que la foto esté hecha sentido Madrid):
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> Ahora mismo los trabajos se centran en retirar todos los materiales de obra, que como podéis ver, hace un par de semanas eran abundantes:
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> Un vistazo ahora al norte y el singular edificio aparece diáfano:
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> Nunca deja de admirarme la singular configuración de este nuevo nudo de la alta velocidad en España:
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> Vías generales y de estacionamiento: la diferencia de cota comienza a crecer a medida que nos acercamos a la estación:
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> Todos los elementos de superestructura se encuentran ya funcionando al 100%:
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> Hemos llegado ya al edificio, que promete unas vistas espectaculares de las circulaciones pasantes (que a día de hoy ya han surcado las vías generales a 300 km/h):
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> La zona de acceso a los andenes, servidos con escaleras mecánicas y ascensores de última generación:
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> Tal y como comentaba hace ya meses, en esta foto podemos ver perfectamente las pantallas que se han instalado en las vías generales para aislarlas, dado que por ellas van a circular los trenes a su máxima velocidad:
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> Una vez dentro del edificio, la verdad es que el tono de la piedra y la abundante luz lo hacen muy acogedor:
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> Los relojes Festina lucen bastante bien en la zona de paneles y acceso a los andenes:
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> He aquí uno de los 2 ascensores (este para las circulaciones sentido Valladolid) con los que ha sido dotada la estación:
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> Como he comentado otras veces, los colores y la nueva tipografía de la señalética de ADIF me encantan:
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> Aquí tenemos el ascensor para los trenes que se dirijan a la capital:
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> Y una de las escaleras mecánicas:
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> Esos bancos prometen unas vistas espectaculares para cualquier aficionado:
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> Concretamente, estas:
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> De vuelta en los exteriores, una muestra del enorme desnivel entre vías:
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> En esta foto vemos como 2 de las vías de estacionamiento llegan a su topera, mientras que las otras 2 se incorporan ya a las vías generales sentido Valladolid. En breve se encontrarán con el túnel de la Fuentecilla (el menor de los 4 que conforman la línea):
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> A un mayor nivel de detalle vemos el perfecto estado de vía y electrificación:
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> No podía despedirme de la estación de Segovia sin esta ya clásica perspectiva:
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> Con algo más de zoom ya se intuye la zona de andenes S, y el efecto óptico de tobogán que presentan las vías de estacionamiento (recordemos que no tienen pendiente alguna) es si cabe más curioso:
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> Hasta aquí la visita a la estación, pero aprovecho para dejaros aquí alguna fotillo más que saqué camino de Valladolid.
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> La LAV llegando a Garcillán desde Segovia:
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> A punto de cruzar el río Moros, con la boca del túnel de Tabladillo (2.751 m) al fondo:
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> El espectacular salto de carnero de Olmedo, con su característica curva de r=15.000:
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> Forzando la máquina, una de las 319 que ha venido probando el ERTMS se dirigía hacia Segovia:
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> Aquí la veíamos llegar desde Valdestillas:
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> Y finalmente, uno de los Alvia Madrid-Gijón circulando por la Imperial adosado al ramal de acceso al cambiador de Valdestillas, con la LAV Madrid-Valladolid pasando bajo el PS que se ve en última instancia:





Tintin said:


> Una vez que la LAV supera El Goloso y se aleja del monte de El Pardo, su trazado se vuelve mucho menos sinuoso y ya parece el propio de una línea de alta velocidad del s. XXI. Atraviesa con una gran recta la zona del Soto de Viñuelas (punto que alberga el PB de Tres Cantos) y se lanza hacia el cerro de San Pedro con amplias curvas de r=6.000 y suaves cambios de rasante que, al aplicar un fuerte zoom, resultan así de espectaculares:
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> El ambiente respira tranquilidad por los cuatro costados, y las vacas pacen tranquilamente ajenas al progreso tecnológico:
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> Un último obstáculo antes de llegar a los túneles de San Pedro: el curvo viaducto de El Salobral (748 m):
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> Esta será, sin mucho lugar a la duda, uno de los lugares favoritos para los que nos acerquemos a fotografiar los trenes que surquen la línea:
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> Al fondo asoman ya los túneles de San Pedro, los terceros en longitud de la línea:
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> Las pilas alcanzan los 40 metros:
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> Y, abusando de zoom digital, podemos ver los trabajos de remate de instalaciones en la boca de los túneles, que ya tienen instalados los sistemas de protección frente a caída de objetos y que van a ver conectado durante esta misma semana su centro autotransformador:
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> Seguimos camino hacia el norte y nos encontramos con otro de los puntos de peregrinación de la línea: el viaducto de Arroyo del Valle visto desde la M-625:
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> Enclavado en un precioso espacio de la geografía madrileña, se ha integrado perfectamente con la naturaleza después de una DIA muy severa que modificó sustancialmente el proyecto inicial:
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> Su pendiente inicial de 17,5 milésimas sentido Valladolid se suaviza mucho al llegar al estribo norte, como puede apreciarse en esta foto:
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> E incluso mejor en esta otra:
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> La sucesión de pilas (hasta 27) y apoyos es espectacular vista tan de cerca:
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> Luces de 66 metros (salvo el arco central, que es doble) y una altura de pilas de casi 80 metros hacen de este viaducto una maravilla para los aficionados a la ingeniería civil:
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> A algo más de 34 kilómetros de Madrid nos encontramos la junta de dilatación del estribo norte, señalizada perfectamente:
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> Con el cerramiento instalado y las simulaciones comerciales en marcha, el tramo está completamente terminado:
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> Y los 25 kV a 50 Hz, listos para propulsar los trenes a más de 300 km/h (a día de hoy se han alcanzado los 334 km/h con el A-330 de ADIF):
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> Sentido Valladolid y tras tocar tierra, la LAV se dirige a toda máquina hacia el PB/PAET de Miraflores de la Sierra:
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> Al fondo, los quintos túneles ferroviarios más importantes del mundo:
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> La electrificación siempre resulta visualmente atractiva:
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> Y nos metemos en faena con el PAET de Miraflores. Todo listo:
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> Desde el feeder negativo (-25 kV) se alimentan los sistemas de calefacción de agujas, alumbrado de túneles, señalización y comunicaciones, a través de un seccionador y un transformador situados en un poste metálico similar a los de la propia catenaria. El feeder positivo o de subestación alimenta directamente los equipos eléctricos de los trenes. En esta foto, vemos perfectamente las conexiones con los cable-feeder:
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> La tipología de las ménsulas es variada, y quizá esta sea una de las más vistosas:
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> En esta foto algo más general vemos todos los componentes del sistema de electrificación, con los 2 cable-feeder en la parte superior (el positivo por encima del negativo):
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> Señal de proximidad a túneles:
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> Último obstáculo antes de llegar a Guadarrama: el viaducto de Majalahita:
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> Los túneles, imponentes al fondo:
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> Señalización, electrificación, vía … toda la obra ha sido ya entregada al ADIF:
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> Y justo en ese momento, zas, un sonido particular (la práctica ausencia del mismo) y he aquí uno de los primeros Alvia realizando simulaciones comerciales en esta LAV:
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> A lo lejos ya, hacía sonar su bocina al entrar en los túneles de Guadarrama:
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> Esto ha sido todo. Espero haber ilustrado bien el estado de las obras.


Thanks again Tintin. He has many many more pictures (I wonder how much space do them take on his HDD... ) in Spain's forums. Have a look in there.


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## Tintin

Here you have some links:

*- Madrid - Barcelona - French Border
- Madrid - Córdoba - Málaga
- Madrid - Segovia - Valladolid
- Madrid - Cuenca - Valencia - Alicante - Murcia
- Olmedo - Orense - Santiago de Compostela
- Basque Y (Vitoria - Bilbao - San Sebastián)
- Non-specific high speed thread*

There´s plenty of information out there.


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## Booze

Richard Mlynarik said:


> Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona (of which Camp de Tarragona-Barcelona Sants is new) will _not_ open this year, *nor is it likely to open in the first half of next year*, due to a tunneling cave-in last month in Bellvitge where the new LAV passes under the existing FGC metro tunnel.


Source?


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## 33Hz

Thanks for the info guys. Great photos. Pity that the Barcelona link will be late, but these things happen. Better to make sure things are done properly than rush them.

I see the speed of 330km/h mentioned several times. Is this the expected speed in regular service now?


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## Bipo

^^

350 km/h will be top speed on Spain's HSLs (except first of all, Madrid-Sevilla, "just" 300 km/h) from next year' summer. Talgo S-102 "Duck" is able to reach 330 on commercial use. Siemens S-103 "Velaro" reaches 350.


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## Booze

Madrid - Córdoba - Sevilla / Málaga has a commercial speed of 300Km/h in less than 10Km, normal top speed is arround 250Km/h. The new extension to Málaga has a top speed of 350Km/h


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## Coccodrillo

Commercial and top speeds are two different things.

While top speed can be (today) up to 320 km/h, commercial (= average) speed usually is not higher than 220 km/h.


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## Bipo

Coccodrillo said:


> Commercial and top speeds are two different things.
> 
> While top speed can be (today) up to 320 km/h, commercial (= average) speed usually is not higher than 220 km/h.



Sorry, but commercial speed is not average speed. AVE has a commercial speed (call it cruise speed if you want) of 300 km/h, while average speed is about 220 km/h. In Madrid-Tarragona HSL, AVE trains run almost full time at 300 km/h, but commercial stops decrease average speeds.


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## sdf11

Coccodrillo said:


> Commercial and top speeds are two different things.
> 
> While top speed can be (today) up to 320 km/h, commercial (= average) speed usually is not higher than 220 km/h.


Ave has the world record of average speed between Madrid-Camp de Tarragona...with an average speed of 267km/h



sdf11 said:


> En España, en el pasado mes de abril, con un tren serie 102 en doble y circulando a la velocidad máxima de 300 km/h se hizo el recorrido de Madrid Puerta de Atocha a Camp de Tarragona (por los by passes) en 1 hora y 57 minutos sin rebasar las velocidades máximas lo que supone una media de 267,12 km/h. El tiempo con que se prevé empezar la explotación de la línea de Madrid a Barcelona para los trenes sin paradas (y de momento a velocidad máxima de 300 km/h) es de 2 horas y 35 minutos es decir, a una media de 240,4 km/h.
> 
> El récord de los franceses está en:
> 
> 263,3 km/h de media entre Lyon y St Exupéry que hay 289.6 kms, con topes de 320 km/h en 2005.
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> 
> Por lo tanto es NUEVO RECORD MUNDIAL. Y encima con más mérito, sólo 300 km/h y durante 572 kms!!!
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> In English:
> 
> In Spain, in the last April, with a train series 102 in double composition and circulating to the maximum speed of 300 km/h did the travel between Madrid-Puerta de Atocha to Campo de Tarragona (for the by passes) in 1 hour and 57 minutes without the maximum speeds exceeded what supposes an average of 267,12 km/h. The time with which it is foreseen to begin the explotation(development) of the line of Madrid to Barcelona for the trains without stops (and at the moment to maximum speed of 300 km/h) is 2 hours and 35 minutes is to say, to an average of 240,4 km/h.
> The record of the French rail is in:
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> 263,3 km/h of average between(among) Lyons and St Exupéry that there are 289.6 kms, with ceilings of 320 km/h in 2005.
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> Therefore it is A NEW WORLD RECORD. And above with more merit, only 300 km/h and during 572 kms!!!
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> I don't know if it's correct, please, change some words if are incorrect


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## 33Hz

sdf11 said:


> Ave has the world record of average speed between Madrid-Camp de Tarragona...with an average speed of 267km/h


Actually TGV Est has the world record average speed of 279.3km/h. See http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_...lines_boost_rails_high_speed_performance.html


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## Bitxofo

33Hz said:


> Actually TGV Est has the world record average speed of 279.3km/h. See http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_...lines_boost_rails_high_speed_performance.html


In commercial service, like the Spanish record?
:?


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## 33Hz

Bitxofo said:


> In commercial service, like the Spanish record?
> :?


Yes, all the services in the linked article are regular commercial services.


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## Alexriga

Congratulations Spain!


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## Bipo

^^

Thanks! 

By the way... you should visit Spain. More info at spain.info


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## Booze

First TV commercials for the new HSL to Valladolid.






"It no longer matters the distance from two points, but the time it takes to cross it"


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## sdf11

A nice photo taked by Tintín near Madrid, with the test train A-330...


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## xote

^^ I was just going to post that picture. Amazing photo! 

This test train is heading north from the city of Madrid along the soon-to-be inaugurated HSL to the north towards the capital of the Castile and Leon region, Valladolid. Only a little while longer before this line opens up the Spanish northwest to improved journey times to Madrid!

:drool:


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## OettingerCroat

growingup said:


> This is how a spanish train change national gauge to international gauge and the other way around. It's really interesting to see how it works:


this is so cool!


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## RSG

That was excellant growingup. I did not realise how easy it was to change guage. Good to see Spain leading the way in high speed rail infrastructure.


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## eomer

RSG said:


> That was excellant growingup. I did not realise how easy it was to change guage. Good to see Spain leading the way in high speed rail infrastructure.


If it is so easy to change gauge between Valladolid and Bilbao, why does it take so many time to do the same thing between Hendaye and Irun or between Cerbere and Port Bou ?


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## Coccodrillo

Because between Madrid and Bilbao/Gijón/Barcelona also the engines change gauge, but between Spain and France they don't. In Irún the Spanish engine is detached, and a shunt engine is attached to the other end of the train. The shunter push the Talgo set into the "gauge changer", then the French engine is attached to the train.

Within Spain, often but not ever, the train just has to slow, and the whole set with the engines change gauge.


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## Booze

^^ And aslo beacause the fast change of gauge only occurs with modern trains thanks to its improved technology.


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## Reivajar

Correct. 

With new class 120 and class 130 EMUs change is fast because they are EMUs and they don't need replace their engine.

When we are talking about international night trains between Spain and France, Italy and Switzerland you have to considerer they are Talgo cars sets pulled by independent engines, so change of gauge is more complicated.


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## Coccodrillo

Booze said:


> ^^ And aslo beacause the fast change of gauge only occurs with modern trains thanks to its improved technology.


It's not a matter of technology, but of the type of the train: engine+wagons, or EMU.


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## Reivajar

Technology development has been fundamental to reach actual fast gauge change. You have to considerer that gauge variable drive bogies was a dream a few years ago, and this development has been essential to design new EMUs.

A few years ago we only had Talgo cars pulled by engines, because without gauge variable drive bogies pulled cars could change of gauge, but you had to change the engine. You have reason, it's a matter of type of train, and the type of trains, or at least, new variable gauge EMUs is directly connected with development of new technology (Talgo and CAF).


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## Booze

Coccodrillo said:


> It's not a matter of technology, but of the type of the train: engine+wagons, or EMU.


Yet the type of train is technology too :?


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## eomer

Coccodrillo said:


> Within Spain, often but not ever, the train just has to slow, and the whole set with the engines change gauge.


It's very interresting but I think that the Spanish Engines, that can change gauge, could run until Hendaye and Cerbere...but maybe is that too simplistic.


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## Reivajar

Currently, Spanish units that can change gauge are class 120 and class 130 emus and some units from class 594 equiped with BRAVA bogies.

Electrical units can not run on French tracks because voltage system on Southern France network is 1,5 kV DC, but in Spain conventional network uses 3 kV DC. UIC lines in Spain use 25 kV AC but in France this voltage system is only used in HSLs and in Nothern network. So, there is a problem due to voltage incompatibility. Supossely, French Government was going to change voltage system in Southern network, but I think it has been stopped.

On the other hand, Renfe class 594 is a DMU but it's not aproved to run on French network, so it can be use for international links.


----------



## 33Hz

Modifying a 3kV train to run on 1.5kV should be relatively easy though


----------



## Cicerón

Another video of a Talgo S-130 changing its gauge from Iberian (1,668 mm) to UIC (1,435 mm):







CAF S-120 changing the pantograph from 3kV to 25kV:


----------



## OettingerCroat

Cicerón said:


> CAF S-120 changing the pantograph from 3kV to 25kV:


so wait, the overhead cable stays the same, but only the train's pantograph changes? does that mean that both currents are flowing through the overhead cables?


----------



## Reivajar

33Hz said:


> Modifying a 3kV train to run on 1.5kV should be relatively easy though


Yes no doubt. But you have to change electric system. In any case curently you can find train that can run on four different voltage system. A good example is Thalys PKBA unit sets. Renfe have some old locomotive adapted for 1,5 kV CC from some old lines that had that voltage system, but it hapenned many years ago and I don't know if these locomotives keep these electric systems, but in any case we are talking about quite old engines.


----------



## Bitxofo

Cicerón said:


> Another video of a Talgo S-130 changing its gauge from Iberian (1,668 mm) to UIC (1,435 mm):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CAF S-120 changing the pantograph from 3kV to 25kV:


Very interesting videos.
kay:
Many thanks!
:wink2:


----------



## elfabyanos

Reivajar said:


> Yes no doubt. But you have to change electric system. In any case curently you can find train that can run on four different voltage system. A good example is Thalys PKBA unit sets. Renfe have some old locomotive adapted for 1,5 kV CC from some old lines that had that voltage system, but it hapenned many years ago and I don't know if these locomotives keep these electric systems, but in any case we are talking about quite old engines.


As they are both DC, simplistically, to make a 1.5K work on a 3K power supply just change the transformer to have a different output, or add a voltage halving transformer that can be switched into the circuit when required. It's electrically very simple. The difficulty would be if there is space in the engine, if it's cost effective, if the engine would draw too much current for the other country's power supply to cope with, has a start-up spike that the power supply can't cope with, or it can cope too well and the engine burns itself out by instantaneously drawing too much power, not mention secondary effects on signalling systems that may be problematic and other issues. Most of these wouldn't be very likely but they still have to be extensively tested before deploying a loco on a new network.


----------



## sdf11

Very interesting how the Talgo 250/ Alvia 130...change its gauge...

Thanks Cicerón!!


----------



## sdf11

It is very probable that the AVE Madrid - Barcelona is opened the public between February 20-28... The date even not this one confirmed officially, but this way it is rumored and surely it will be like that...

A proof of it is the traffic of trains AVE up to approximately 10 km from the arrival to Barcelona Sants 










The AVE 103 at the St. Boi Bridge! Thanks Sanlucar for that impressive pic!


Also we have some new videos of the AVE's trainsets:


----------



## growingup

Great video update!. Thanks sdf11.


----------



## sotavento

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ in that map, blue lines are HSL in use, 25 kV and standard gauge. The red and dotted lines, are the same, but under construction (even if some stretches have yet been opened).
> 
> Green lines are planned.
> 
> They will be initially built at iberian gauge (1668 mm) but with convertible sleepers (1668 *OR*1435), electrification will probably be in 25 kV from the beginning.
> 
> Some are yet under construction, like Pontevedra-Santiago de Compostela-A Coruña. I've done Santiago-A Coruña by train in august 2006, on some streches my train run on the old line, on some other it used the new. Temporarly, 1668 mm and diesel traction.
> 
> Blue and red lines are or will be only-passenger 350 km/h lines, the greens ones miexed passenger/freight, with 200 to 220 km/h as speed limit (not really HSL). We will see how many green lines will be built.
> 
> I hope that iberic network will be converted to standard gauge in the future, especially for freight traffic. Rail freight traffic between Spain and France is very low, about 6 million tonnes each yerar


^^ Main trunck rail lines will be DEDICATED to AVE network at speeds of 300kmh or more ... secundary lines and MAIN regional corridors will be 200/250kmh due to local usage ... 



Coccodrillo said:


> Compare this:
> http://www.technologyreview.com/microsites/spain/train/player/spainmap/images/Spain_trainmap.gif (planned "HSL" lines)
> and this:
> http://bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/iberian-peninsula/iberian-peninsula.gif (existing network)
> 
> They shows about the same lines, that is, neraly all railways are planned to be upgraded to 200 km/h and UIC gauge.
> 
> It's true that Spain is planning to convert all of its network to standard gauge, it's true that al "green" line are planend to sue standard gauge in the future, but *not* from the beginning.


^^ This is where most people make their mistakes ... the grren lines are NOT (in most cases) conversions of older routes ... they simply just follow the same stretch of terrain due to the peninsula mountainousness. :cheers: 



> _Once again_, I have travelled the Santiago-A Coruña line in summer 2006, and it used iberian gauge and diesel trains even on the upgraded parts. Some parts of this line have yet been upgraded, some not = my train used the old line here, then the new there, and again the old line, then the new...
> 
> At least this line is being (re)built with iberian gauge and diesel traction, and will be converted later. Zoltan here or on Tranvia.org will confirm that.


^^ You got a HUGE problem .... you GET the ONLY case where something aplies ..i. and generalise to everywhere else ... 

Atlantic corridos (Corunha-Vigo) is being doubled and realigned to 200/250kmh running ... only some (very few in fact) "regional" lines will suffer the same faith ... but some stretches or "renewed" lines are in fact 250kmh (could be even 300kmh in the future) ... but the cost of dedicated 300kmh + mixed (reusing the old lines for regional/freight) is lower than the extensive usage of 220/250kmh lines ... and the gains are much higher. :cheers: 



> So:
> Phase one: new line, iberian gauge, 3 kV or diesel traction
> Phase two: the new line will be converted to standard gauge and 25 kV
> The "_Corredor Atlántico_" follows this scheme, and there is nothing shame in that.
> 
> Maybe some lines will built, or rebuilt, with standard gauge from the beginning, probably the lines near the French border, like the Y-Basca (Bilbao/Vitoria-San Sebastián-Irún-France).
> 
> I'm still unsure about what will happen with the Pajares base tunnel, anyway (León-Oviedo). Iberic or standard gauge...I think Zoltan answered that question somewhere.


^^ You get it completely wrong ... for example:

Barcelona-FrenchBorder will be mixed 300kmh track from day one ... nothern Spanish lines are 100% new lines ... wonder where y

Lisboa(Portugal)-Badajoz-Madrid will be a +300kmh line CLOSE to the existing one that will be kept open for regional and freight train (and eventualy will be converted to UIC gauge) ... secundary connections will be 1.iberian+1uic or will even only receive new dual gauge sleepers and converted to UIC somewhere in the future. 

You will get 3 or even 4 tracks almost everywhere in those green lines on that map ... :lol:


----------



## sotavento

Napo said:


> Yes yes, Spain is the most developped and richest country in the world, the spanish companies are the biggest on the planet, and spanish trains are the better in Europe. Ok?
> But this doesn't mean that you can insult my country. You must be more modest, and you must have more respect for the others countries, many of which are more developped, more important, and richer than Spain.
> This thread is called "new HSL in Spain", no "Spain vs Italy" or "Spain vs Germany" or "Spain vs England". If you want to say these things open a new thread:"Spain, the better country in the world".
> I hope that this (Off Topic) dicussion ends now.
> 
> Saludos a todos amigos espanoles :wave:


hno:


----------



## sotavento

Reivajar said:


> Yes no doubt. But you have to change electric system. In any case curently you can find train that can run on four different voltage system. A good example is Thalys PKBA unit sets. Renfe have some old locomotive adapted for 1,5 kV CC from some old lines that had that voltage system, but it hapenned many years ago and I don't know if these locomotives keep these electric systems, but in any case we are talking about quite old engines.


Different Signaling , current , gauge ... we should just BUILD a batch of "Iberia Express" LMBP (like thalys or Eurostar trains) 

But there is no need to retrofit old trains .... new ones are being built and much more will be necessary in the next few years. 

Lusitania + Sud express + all spain<->france express trains should benefit from it. << only naming international/cross border trains :cheers:

Maiby the best solutions would be to just grab some Talgo 130 locomotives and make them 4 voltage ???


----------



## sdf11

Here we are 3 pic's of Tonetti from the Sant Boi Bridge, very near of Barcelona Sants:


----------



## sdf11

...


----------



## xote

Menuda preciosidad - What a beauty. 

:drool:


----------



## Bitxofo

Great photos!
:drool::drool:
Only 5 or 6 km. before Barcelona city!
:happy:
Its'coming, it's coming soon!!
:dance:


----------



## Avientu

Yeah, finally! I´m so excited :banana:


----------



## SkyLerm

Wow what a pictures! :happy:


----------



## sdf11

HSL Madrid Puerta de Atocha-Málaga María Zambrano:


----------



## sdf11

The first AVE talgo Test Train arrives at sants station in Barcelona!!












:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :master: :master: :master: :master: :master: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:


:dance:


----------



## sdf11

2 videos by my self:


Two AVE's 103 series Velaro E, in double composition...2 trains, 1608 seats...:nuts:

Filmed at Lleida Station:

Camp de Tarragona-Madrid Puerta de Atocha:












Madrid Puerta de Atocha-Camp de Tarragona:











Regards!


----------



## Coccodrillo

How can they open a new line without testing runs?

For the Lötschebrg Basis Tunnel or the Milano-Bologna HSL trains ran, or will run, without passengers for at least 6 months!


----------



## Avientu

Coccodrillo said:


> How can they open a new line without testing runs?
> 
> For the Lötschebrg Basis Tunnel or the Milano-Bologna HSL trains ran, or will run, without passengers for at least 6 months!


The line is not open yet, the green and white train above is a test train.


----------



## sdf11

Coccodrillo said:


> How can they open a new line without testing runs?
> 
> For the Lötschebrg Basis Tunnel or the Milano-Bologna HSL trains ran, or will run, without passengers for at least 6 months!


From Tarragona (the end of the line right now) to St. Boi...10km for bcn sants...has tested for many months also, the only thing that they are testing now is the entry to sants, alone 3 or 4 km, which the trains will do to very low speed and which it is not necessary any more tests that these, but the whole line (this way like of valladolid and that of Malaga) has been tested for several months and have crossed hundreds of thousands of kilometres...


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ I know, the green train is (part of the) the prototype Talgo XXI used by Adif for test runs.

So, the longest stretch that has not been tested until yesterday, is only 15 km long? The other part from Taragona has been tested yet? I have misunderstood!

:hi:


----------



## sdf11

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ I know, the green train is (part of the) the prototype Talgo XXI used by Adif for test runs.
> 
> So, the longest stretch that has not been tested until yesterday, is only 15 km long? The other part from Taragona has been tested yet? I have misunderstood!
> 
> :hi:


I quote the boss of renfe in a spanish forum tranvia.org...




> On 2008-02-03 23:44, Renfe-Operadora wrote:
> Así se encuentran actualmente las obras en su accesos a Barcelona.
> 
> ::Camp de Tarragona-Sant Joan Despí
> Obras finalizadas
> Pruebas finalizadas
> 
> ::Sant Joan Despí-Sant Boi
> Obras finalizadas
> Pruebas finalizadas
> 
> ::Sant Boi-L´Hospitalet
> Obras finalizadas
> En pruebas
> 
> ::L´Hospitalet-La Torrassa
> Montaje de vía finalizado próximo 5 Febrero
> Instalación de catenaria y señalización en marcha
> Inicio pruebas del ADIF con trenes diesel desde 4 Febrero
> 
> ::La Torrassa-Sants
> Montaje de vía finalizado
> Instalación de catenaria y señalización en marcha
> Inicio pruebas del ADIF con trenes diesel desde 4 Febrero
> 
> Saludos Cordiales
> 
> [ Este mensaje fue editado por: Renfe-Operadora on 03-02-2008 23:45 ]



I try to traduce well:



> On 2008-02-03 23:44, Renfe-Operadora wrote:
> It currently works in their access to Barcelona.
> 
> ::Camp de Tarragona-Sant Joan Despí
> Works completed
> Tests Completed
> 
> 
> ::Sant Joan Despí-Sant Boi
> Works completed
> Tests Completed
> 
> 
> ::Sant Boi-L´Hospitalet
> Works competed
> Testing
> 
> 
> ::L´Hospitalet-La Torrassa
> Mounting track completed next February 5
> Installing catenary and signage in place
> Start testing ADIF with diesel trains from Yesterday
> 
> 
> ::La Torrassa-Sants
> Mounting track completed
> Installing catenary and signage in place
> Start testing ADIF with diesel trains from Yesterday
> 
> 
> Best Regards.
> 
> [ Este mensaje fue editado por: Renfe-Operadora on 03-02-2008 23:45 ]



So, Sant Boi is around 15km or less to Barcelona Sants Station...the only need to test 15km right now...the tests between Tarragona to Sant Boi starts aproximatly in Summer 2007...

The Line will be opened around 20 February...


----------



## xote

Coccodrillo said:


> How can they open a new line without testing runs?
> 
> For the Lötschebrg Basis Tunnel or the Milano-Bologna HSL trains ran, or will run, without passengers for at least 6 months!


The vast majority of the Madrid-Barcelona line already has passanger service (i.e., Madrid to Tarragona). 

So there is no need to perform tests on this part of the line, but only the Tarragona-Barcelona part.


----------



## sdf11

The AVE S103 arrives to Barcelona-Sants!!! 







:drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool:


:dance:



The next important date will be around 20 February...


----------



## sdf11

The line is finished!!!


This morning I saw the AVE S103 and the Adif test train A-330 at the bellvitge tunnel...


Enjoy it!






:drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool:


----------



## 33Hz

Good work.

What is that strange smoke that comes from under the S-103?


----------



## Bipo

33Hz said:


> What is that strange smoke that comes from under the S-103?


It's just dust. They should clean up the floor before the great opening, or Velaros' _nose_ would get dirty xD


----------



## Booze

It's official. Barcelona - Madrid service starts on February the 20th


----------



## Fugit

From Typically Spanish:

The Development Minister has given the date as Wednesday 20th February

The new high speed rail service between Madrid and Barcelona will open to passengers on 20th February, the day before the electoral campaign officially starts for the national poll on 9th March, and two months after the originally-planned inauguration date, 21st December last year. The Development Minister, Magdalena Álvarez, gave the news after a meeting in Barcelona on Tuesday with the President of the Generalitat de Cataluña, José Montilla.

She said tickets will go on sale on line on the Renfe web page from 14th February, and more detailed information is expected from Renfe itself this Wednesday. The Minister added that the last two sections of the line to Girona and the border with France will be contracted later this month.

The first AVE high speed pulled up into Barcelona’s Sants station last Friday morning as part of testing on the new line. It was an eight-wagon Siemens S-103, the train which will be in service on the route.

There was news last week that AVE train drivers have called 10 days of partial stoppages on all AVE services between 19th and 29th February.


----------



## Booze

I already have my tickets for a direct train :cheer:


----------



## runi

How much will it cost a ticket? It would be interesting to compare train vs. flight prices


----------



## Stifler

These are the fares in €:


cifo1 said:


>


In the upper chart it's for trains which stop in Zaragoza, Lleida and Tarragona, while the chart below is for direct trains.

Tarifa general (single general ticket), anada y tornada (return general ticket). Estrella and Web are two cheap fares with a limited number of seats available, and Puente AVE is a special single ticket you can use whenever you want.

Timetable


Danzig said:


> de Via Libre:


----------



## gincan

^^ 2h 40m for the direct train gives a average speed of 230km/h, not very fast for a brand new HSR. The fastest one of 2h 30m works out at 248km/h, I though it was going to be faster. Something like 260-270.

The slowest one that takes 3h 23m only average 183km/h, that is very slow for a HSR even if there are many stops on the line.


----------



## Avientu

^^ I thought the same, as the aim was to do it in 2h30m... are they starting at a lower speed and then increase it eventually?


----------



## Bipo

Avientu said:


> ^^ I thought the same, as the aim was to do it in 2h30m... are they starting at a lower speed and then increase it eventually?


That's it.

Around summer, top speed would be set at 350 km/h. Then, AVE+ direct trains would be able to run between MAD and BCN in 2:15 or less :yes:


----------



## Avientu

Can't wait!


----------



## Bipo

^^

Me too!!


----------



## Fugit

Is it really sure with this speed 350 km/h in the summer???


----------



## Booze

^^ Those are also official times. Since the have to pay you back when the train is late they stablish a longer trip time just in case. So the direct trains will likely be 2h30', with a top speed of 300KM/h by now.


----------



## Xabi

*Video about Basque HSL:*





(in english)

TV ad:





(in spanish)


----------



## Xabi

*Last December 2007*

*Alvia arrives to the Basque Country:*









Alvia at Bilbao-Abando station.



























Alvia near Amurrio.









Alvia at Amurrio station.

*Photos by Axaber.*


----------



## Bitxofo

1st high speed train AVE will depart from BCN to Madrid this Wednesday at 6am, it will arrive to Madrid at 8.38am!
:banana::carrot:epper::cucumber:


----------



## Chafford1

This article appeared in the British Guardian newspaper a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/02/spain.railtravel


The article suggests the top speed *will* be about 220mph (217 to be exact) or 350kmh.


----------



## Skylandman

...edited


----------



## SkyLerm

S-130 series isn't it? :sly:


----------



## Bitxofo

^^I was traveling:










The cleaners were in the middle of the train:









:wink2:


----------



## sdf11

Some videos by me from yesterday...the trip was perfect...

Going into the platforms to put the AVE to Camp de Tarragona...you also can see the first train to arrive at Sants at 08:43 AM from Madrid.









Go out from Sants to Camp de Tarragona...and passing the Bellvitge tunnel...








I will post more videos...


----------



## sdf11

At 290kmh...When we returnt to Barcelona we run at 301kmh...


----------



## UT596001

^^ And the 120 emu trains operates, today, at Madrid-Logroño, Madrid-Pamplona-Hendaia and some Madrid-Albacete-València services (and I thing to Orpesa and Gandia in summer). In the two first cases runs into HSL Madrid-Barcelona between Madrid and Plasencia de Jalón. In the second case runs on 100% of his route on iberian gauge.


----------



## sdf11

The AVE+ direct train Barcelona-Madrid passing at 300kmh in Camp de Tarragona station...








Also the "normal" trains with stops arrive easily to 300kmh...Only 4 minuts later to depart from Camp de Tarragona Station...we arrive at top speed...







Regards...:cheers:


----------



## Railfan

Nice videos


----------



## Bitxofo

^^My videos:

Inside AVE at 300km/h: 





Our AVE leaving from Camp de Tarragona station towards Madrid: 



:drool::drool:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That is cool. I'll definatly make a trip to Madrid once it is possible to do the whole line from Rotterdam by High Speed Rail.


----------



## Bitxofo

^^You will have to wait until 2015 or longer...
:nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, that's too bad. Well, maybe if they finish the Perpignan - Figueres part. I don't know why they don't speed up the Perpignan - Avignon section, or am i wrong?


----------



## Bitxofo

Chriszwolle said:


> Yeah, that's too bad. Well, maybe if they finish the Perpignan - Figueres part. I don't know why they don't speed up the Perpignan - Avignon section, or am i wrong?


From Barcelona to the French border, it will be ready in 2012.

From the French border to Avignon/Montpellier by 2015...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That train has a weird nose. Great improvement on the BCN - Madrid line though. Is Barcelona - Madrid really the busiest air bridge in the world? I would think some US lines might be busiest (Washington - New York or Los Angeles - Las Vegas?), but i might be wrong about that.


----------



## xote

Chriszwolle said:


> That train has a weird nose. Great improvement on the BCN - Madrid line though. Is Barcelona - Madrid really the busiest air bridge in the world? I would think some US lines might be busiest (Washington - New York or Los Angeles - Las Vegas?), but i might be wrong about that.


In terms of amount of traffic it is. In terms of passenger numbers I think that it is third or fourth.


----------



## 33Hz

Bitxofo said:


> From the French border to Avignon/Montpellier by 2015...


And will be a mixed-traffic HSL, probably at speeds under 300km/h


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Too bad. This corridor has good potential with several larger cities, the coastal area's, and ofcourse, the most important of all: Costa Brava/Daurada and Barcelona. Imagine you could travel by train in nearly a day from the Benelux/Germany to Barcelona. (Or Madrid via the Atlantic corridor). It could replace a lot of polluting flights, and maybe some car trips during the summer (though that are usually too different transportation motives)


----------



## AVassilios

Booze said:


> ^^ Renfe only operates the service. Infraestructure and stations are built and run by ADIF.
> 
> Renfe pays a fee to ADIF, as other operators will do when the market is liberalised. It's just like airlines and airports.


And when will it be liberalised ?? I know that the posts in Europe are liberalised at least by 2013, but i didn't know railway too.


----------



## Stifler

AVassilios said:


> And when will it be liberalised ?? I know that the posts in Europe are liberalised at least by 2013, but i didn't know railway too.


I haven't heard of it either.

I guess Booze meant other passenger companies (besides Renfe) will pay a fee to ADIF (infraestructure owner) when passenger traffic is liberalized in 2010-2012.

In Spain freight traffic is already liberalized, but not yet for passengers.


----------



## AVassilios

Yeah in quite every country it's like in Spain. In Greece i don't know how it is, there is no other operator than OSE. In Italy we have now NTV in the passanger traffic, lucky italy.


----------



## Zibou

Bitxofo said:


> From Barcelona to the French border, it will be ready in 2012.
> 
> From the French border to Avignon/Montpellier by 2015...


Currently the TGV line stops north of Nîmes : the Montpellier-Nîmes segment was originally supposed to be built with the LGV Méd (which itself opened in 2001), but it was postponed ca 1995 for cost reasons... As of today construction should take place around the 2009-2013 period, although it has been delayed because funding wasn't secured - and I think it still hasn't been entirely solved. But the line will stop south of Montpellier, with mixed freight / passenger service, and no new stations will be built for Nîmes and Montpellier at the moment (Map).
The Montpellier-Perpignan section is still on the drawing board, since the first project was scrapped in the 1990s (also for cost issues). The public debate is supposed to take place this year (expected travel time of 45 mins between Montpellier and Perpignan ; there is about 150 km between the two cities).
The Perpignan-Figueres international line, with the tunnel under the Perthus pass, is scheduled to open in 2009, and its continuation to Barcelona in 2012.


----------



## sdf11

Two more videos by me:













Best regards...:cheers:


----------



## xote

Chriszwolle said:


> Yeah, that's too bad. Well, maybe if they finish the Perpignan - Figueres part. I don't know why they don't speed up the Perpignan - Avignon section, or am i wrong?


La France, c'est Paris. La reste, campagne. 

In general, centralist Paris has decreed that the Lyon-Turin link is more important than upgrading the links between France and Spain. So, the victom is the Perpinya/Perpignan-Avinhon/Avignon segment.


----------



## sdf11

The new HSL Line between Madrid and Málaga:


----------



## bule

*Málaga Station*

Tren Talgo S-102 Pato .Málaga-Cordoba-Madrid.532km. at 300km.p.h maximun speed´.


----------



## sdf11

THX Bule!!!

I Love the Duck!!! :drool::drool:


----------



## hkskyline

*Barcelona's new bullet train takes fight to Iberia *

BARCELONA, Feb 20 (Reuters) - Business travellers were impressed with their first taste of a new bullet train between Madrid and Barcelona on Wednesday, highlighting the challenge it poses for Iberia on the airline's heaviest route. 

Renfe, the state-run train operator, is hoping to almost double the number of passengers taking the train between Spain's twin business capitals to 6.1 million passengers this year after slashing the journey time by a third to just over 2-1/2 hours. 

Passenger Borja Pena-Rich, who owns a building materials firm in Madrid, said the AVE -- which means bird in Spanish but is also an acronym for 'Spanish high speed' -- made better sense than the plane, and from his home in the centre of Madrid to the heart of Barcelona it took about the same time. 

"There's not all this getting up and down, getting undressed, that you have with the plane," he said as the train tore across Spain's rugged and empty interior at 300km/hour. 

"I have been working for 2-1/2 hours, using the phone and it is much more comfortable. I would take this (train) again." 

Pena-Rich said his return ticket, booked the previous day, had cost 180 euros. 

Iberia's flexible 'air bridge' service would have cost him just under 400 euros, he said, plus 50 euros he would have spent on taxis from the airport at each end. The same, 'turn up and go ticket' for the train would have cost 326 euros return. 

The 7 billion euro train line began operations 16 years after Spain's first AVE began running between Madrid and Seville, Former Socialist Prime Minister Felipe Gonzalez's home town, despite Barcelona hosting the Olympics that year. 

But Iberia, which runs 55 percent of the 50-minute flights between Madrid and Barcelona, is not rolling over without a fight. 

It points out Renfe only runs 17 trains in each direction every day, some of them slowed by stops in cities like Zaragoza, whereas the airline has promised to continue flying a jet every 15 minutes during peak hours and will use smaller, but not fewer, planes to compensate for a drop in passenger numbers. 

It has also just bid for Spanair, its main rival on the route, which would help it minimise any costly price war. 

Around 4.8 million people fly between the two cities every year, making it the busiest route in the world. Renfe is hoping to seize 60 percent of the expanded market, according to the Spanish media. 

However, Iberia can take heart from one aspect of the inaugural 6 a.m. service: it was only a third full and around half the passengers were journalists.


*More : http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=427042*


----------



## Shezan

l don't really like those "ducky" spanish HS trains!!!


----------



## vallacopito-tranolid

Shezan said:


> l don't really like those "ducky" spanish HS trains!!!


Why??? They're delicious!! 
I know that is a strange design but...we have to change. We couldn't copy France trains another time like in 1992.:lol:


----------



## Berris

I don't like the ducky trains very much neither, but I love the bullet trains! We have both in Spain.


----------



## Bitxofo

^^I love both!


----------



## pietje01

I love everything that goes 300+ km/h :lol:


----------



## pietje01

I have a question regarding the new high speed line Perpignan-Figueras.

If this link is about to be completed in 2009 there is still a missing (UIC-gauge) link between Barcelona and Figuras, so the AVE will not be able to run between Barcelona and France until 2012 (Source Wikpedia).
Or are they going to install (temporary) gauge changers and start with S120 and S130 sets (Alvia)

Are such gauge changers expensive to build or to maintain ?
Can they be moved to another location when they become obsolete?
Is this changer the same for S120, S130 and the Talgo changers from several years ago?


----------



## arriaca

pietje01 said:


> I have a question regarding the new high speed line Perpignan-Figueras.
> 
> If this link is about to be completed in 2009 there is still a missing (UIC-gauge) link between Barcelona and Figuras, so the AVE will not be able to run between Barcelona and France until 2012 (Source Wikpedia).
> Or are they going to install (temporary) gauge changers and start with S120 and S130 sets (Alvia)
> 
> Are such gauge changers expensive to build or to maintain ?


No



> Can they be moved to another location when they become
> obsolete?


Yes



> Is this changer the same for S120, S130 and the Talgo changers from several years ago?


Yes


----------



## lena5538

we still have those old fashion trains here


----------



## amagaldu

thanks to.. "]SSC


----------



## Bitxofo

^^Great photo!
:eek2:
Where is it?
:?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Valladolid


----------



## Bipo

^^

I'm glad you enjoy them 

Here is my original post:



Bipo said:


> Hoy he hecho un par de HDR, a ver si os gustan :
> 
> Un patito...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... y un Pato





Yrithinnd said:


> Para las HDR necesitas una cámara que permita hacer Bracketing (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracketing), los últimos modelos de reflex traen ya este modo. Sino también pudeis hacer la prueba haciendo la chapuzilla de hacer varias copias de una imagen y sub/sobrexponeerlas via gimp/photoshop pero no es lo mismo.
> 
> De todas formas la mayoría de las HDR quedan demasiado artificiales y personalmente las dos que has puesto no me terminan de convencer, no así la 440 que has subido a tranvía que te ha quedado impresionante:
> 
> 
> Esta es la foto de Bipo a la que me refiero, e increible


----------



## amagaldu

^^ oops.. :nuts:

somehow I deleted or took the wrong link to Bipo´s posting.. ::dunno: 

thanks Bipo..!! is what I meant.. :wink2:


----------



## vallacopito-tranolid

Here have the new trains of variable width for traffics of half distance. They call S-121 and they can circulate to 250km/h on HSL and to 160km/h on conventional railways. The routes for these trains (are rumbles, there is not at all confirmed) will be León-Madrid, Vitoria-Madrid, Jaén-Sevilla,...









By an user of the Spanish forum "tranvía.org"

Greetings


----------



## arriaca

*Talgo Factory in Las Matas (Madrid)*























































































































Old cars for the museum


----------



## joseph1951

GENIUS LOCI said:


> They're 300 kph


That' is the maximum speed that the second generation of dual tension ETR500 can reach after a long and slow acceleration on 25Kv.a.c. 
The top speed of the Italian High Speed trains , ay leat in the beginging in reveneu services, will arounf o 250Km'h. The new Italian HSLs, (or rather HS/HC Lines) built with the 25Kv. a.c. have a maximum project speed of 300km/h in some section, and 240km/k near Modena and 250 Km/h on sections of the new (yet to be completed) 78.5 km Bologna-Florence ,and on some sections of the Milan-Venice. 

On the Direttisima (DD) HSL which is 231 km long + another 20 km on conventional line at both ends (i.e: Florence and Rome) the ER500 travels at a max speed of 220-240km/h on sections of the DD, with only one loco active above 200km/h on the DD. 
On Conventional routes the ETR500 travels with the two locos active up to 100km/h. 

The "new Italian High Sped record (sic!) was obtained a few days ago, on a section of the new HSL Milan-Bologna, not yet operationa and just completed!!. 

Despite the claims of some of my Italian fellows, who irritate and patronize the other members of various forums, the record of 355km/h was obtained :

1) With a slow acceleration from 199 kim/h to 355, which lasted over 10 minutes

2) With one of the two ETR500 used as testing trains, which are of reduced formation of 2 locomotives + 3 carriages and 2 locos + carraiages respectively. It's not yet clear which one of the new test trais were used and on which consist.


The other italians who are writing on this forum, and the Italians who are posting into the Italian section, of this website, maintain that this record was obtained with an ETR500 on normal composition (I.e: 2 locos + 12 carriages), and did not necesstate of modifications, like the French TGVs, which, according to my fellows Italians were moddified to obtain speeds above 500 km/h. 

Therefore these Italians maintain that this record is far more significant that the 574.8 Km/h obtained by the French, with a twicked test train.!!!!.

They don't seems to understanda that all world speed records obtaine were done a) by tweaking traina and lines, and b) they are used not only for publicity stunts but also to push the limiti of the technology, and to test new solutions....


The ETR500 made of 2 locos + 8 carriages, reached a speed of about 352 km/h on the newly built section Turin- Milan (85 km of new HSL, opened a few years ago).

On the new Turin_Milan High speed section, at the moment, only 5 pairs of trains are operational on a daily basis.

When the new Turin-Milan - HSL will be completded (125 km of new HSL + 28 km of old line = 153 km) the total journey time from Turin to Milan will be 
50-55 minutes.


First of all, from Turin the old 4 track section of about 10-1 km long) will allow a maximum speed of 160 km/h. Then, after about 1o km from Turin, the ETR500 has to slow down to 30km/h to enter into the new High speed section of the Turin- Novara. 

Its acceleration is particularly slugghish from 100km/h to 150km/h.

Then, from 150Km/h to reach, for a few seconds, 300Km/h it takes an incredibily long time. 

From 100km/h to 300 km/h it takes 50 kilometers.

A Country, like Italy, where medium size towns are at an averge distance of 50-80 kms there is a need of EXTREMELY FAST ACCELERATION. 

For High Speed trains which make several intermdiate stops, the Talgo 350 is the best. Alterantively the Italian sould consider the Japanese N700

For long distance High Speed Trains,The Velaro is the best (so far). Probaly it will be superseeded by the AGV 360km/h.

The New train which Trenitalia will buy might not be the AGV 360 . Not an impossibile new, improved version of the ETR500.

The ETR is a failed project. Also it is twice as expensive as the conventional TGV. 

It is also to heavy and undepowered. There is no Double Decker version of the ETR500. One ETR500, in a 12 carriage fomation + 2 locos weigh about 660 ton and can carry a bit more than 600 passenger. 

A TGV 2N (double decker) weigh about 435 tons and can carry almost 600 passengers.

A TGV 2N can tavel in double formation . The ETR500 cannot.

Even under the 25kv a.c. catenary, where it can develop full power (8,800 kw) and at a reduced formation (2 locos + 8 crriages) it will take about 10 minutes for the ETR500 to reach 300+ km. The French TGV can be regeared by modififying the software - an operation that takes only 3.5 minutes - and then it will be able to draw 8,800 kw X 2 = 17600 kw, for about 50 minutes. 

This allow the TGV to reach a speed from 0 km/h the 300+ Km/h mark, in less thant 3 minutes. Not, in ten minutes, like the reduced fromation of the ETR500.


----------



## OettingerCroat

qué fabricación de tecnología ferroviaria avanzada la españa tiene... ¡estoy sumamente estupefacto! 

y esta foto es la mejor:









¡viva españa!


----------



## arriaca

OettingerCroat said:


> qué fabricación de tecnología ferroviaria avanzada la españa tiene... ¡estoy sumamente estupefacto!
> 
> y esta foto es la mejor:
> 
> 
> ¡viva españa!


:lol:

¡ Y que viva Croacia !


----------



## OettingerCroat

arriaca said:


> ¡ Y que viva Croacia !


sí, ¿por qué no? :lol:

¡que tengamos fabricaciones como las vuestras!


----------



## joseph1951

Coccodrillo said:


> 200 km/h are not really "high speed", even if they could be done for some streches over medium-importance lines (Palencia-Santander).



Dear Coccodrillo,

Unlike the Italians, the Spanish people use the terms "velocidad alta" and "alta velocidad".

For "velocidad alta" they mean speed of 200-220-and up to 250km/h for short dash or stretches of a given line. 

For "Alta velocidad" they mean speeds between 250km/h and 350Km/h.
Also the French use the expression "High speed" (Grande vitesse) for speeds up to 300 km/h. "Very High Speed" Tres grande vitesse for 350/360 km/h.


This distinction is not made in Italy. Indeed, it is posible to build a VHS tilting train, capable of 300-360 km/h. Fiat had a project of a super pendolino capable of 320km/h. This super pendolino named "Avrila) also had air brakes. 

It was never built. Indeed the ETR401 remained a single prototipe for 15 years, before they built in a rush 15 ET450 derivd from the ETR401. The decision for this was merely political. 

The tilting mechanism could be useful on lines which allow a maximum speed of 250km/h, such as the Direttisima Florence-Rome.

The problem with the Direttissima is that on this line there are too many trains running at very different speeds (140km/h-160km/h 200km/h and some trains 220/km/h).

Furthermore, contrary to the other nations which have bought or built tilting trains of Italian conceptions, the Italians have used the tilting mechanisms of the pendolinos only at the beginning (early '90) and they have never fully exploited its full capacities. 

The ETR500 was flawed even in the planning sage. 

The FS's engineers did not wanted it. It would have been cheaper to make better use of the pendolonosi and also to improve the pendolinos, like the Fiat original projects "Avril" for a super pendolino capable of 320Km'/h, even on the Direttissima. 

You ought to remember that, on the Direttissima, with one pantograph connected to the catenary you cannot draw more that 6000kw.

The historical Forence-Rome line is too slow. There is a need for another couple of tracks between Forence and Rome of a new Very High Speed Line allowing commercial speeds up to 360 km/h.

The French prototype TGV pendulaire (with an active tilting mechanism of only 6 degree) was capable of 320 km/h . 

The original Fiat tilting project, as well as it derivatives, have a maximum tilting capability of 10 degrees.

For a Country which has a great number of small to medium size towns, every 50-100km/h the ideal Very High speed stopping train is the Talgo 350. The Talgo 350 accelerates from 150 to 250 in about a minute. 

It is ideal for Stopping services of the HSL Milan-Venice yet to be built. It is also ideal for HS stopping trains on the new HSL Milan-Bologna.

I believe that it is about time you show some degree of objectivity in international forums. Take it from an Italian who has been living in the UK for 27 years.

On the soon to be open Milan-Bologna the ETR500Y testing train (2 locomotives + 3 carriages) reached only 354 km/h. It took the train (at a reduced formation) 10 minutes and 44 seconds to accelerate from 199km/h to 354km/h. 
On a new Italian HSL, a conventional ETR500 (2 locos + 8 carraiages) reaches the 300km/h mark after 50kms of very slow acceleration. 
A better, cheaper choice would have been a TGV Duplex.


----------



## Coccodrillo

> It is ideal for Stopping services of the HSL Milan-Venice yet to be built. It is also ideal for HS stopping trains on the new HSL Milan-Bologna.


km 0 Milano Centrale
km 36 (Lodi)
km 72 Piacenza
km 107 (Fidenza)
km 129 Parma
km 157 Reggio Emilia
km 182 Modena
km 219 Bologna

=========================

km 0 Milano Centrale
km 34 (Treviglio)
km 66 (Rovato)
km 83 Brescia
km 11 Desenzano
km 125 Peschiera
km 148 Verona
km 172 (San Bonifacio)
km 200 Vicenza
km 230 Padova
km 258 Venezia Mestre
km 267 Venezia Santa Lucia

Without brackets are the cities where InterCity trains stop, with brackets onther smalelr cities where only some IC stops.

http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/fe...toid=edc05e88951ac010VgnVCM1000002f2af90aRCRD


----------



## Bipo

^^

This train is made for you! kay:











I took that photo last month on Valladolid, Spain. Do you like it?


----------



## Avientu

Cool pictures and hdr effects Bipo!

The train looks quite dirty though, looks like it went through a war


----------



## Bipo

^^

In fact, it crossed through _Moria_, I mean... _Guadarrama _:lol:


----------



## RSG

That train looks like a duck but it is better than the "fast rail" we have in Aust or lack of it.


----------



## sdf11

I made this video yesterday at L'Arboç, between Barcelona and Camp de Tarragona, the AVE S103 Flying at full Speed, 300kmh!








I hope you like it!


----------



## elfabyanos

Yeah I do!! Nice one


----------



## Bitxofo

sdf11 said:


> I made this video yesterday at L'Arboç, between Barcelona and Camp de Tarragona, the AVE S103 Flying at full Speed, 300kmh!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you like it!


Great, but it is running at 301km/h.


----------



## Bitxofo

Last Friday, inside the cabin after running at 302kph:


















:wink2:


----------



## Fugit

When the speed will be 350km/h on Madrid-Barcelona?


----------



## Bitxofo

^^By October-November, they say...
:dunno:


----------



## bule

New H.S.L.Málaga-Cordoba-Madrid. Cartama-Tunnel at 15km. dut of Málaga


S-103 Velaro Málaga-Madrid


----------



## Cristovão471

>


Was it really necessary to blank the back of the man's head, lol.


----------



## Bitxofo

^^Yes, he asked it.
:yes:


----------



## sotavento

Coccodrillo said:


> km 0 Milano Centrale
> km 36 (Lodi)
> km 72 Piacenza
> km 107 (Fidenza)
> km 129 Parma
> km 157 Reggio Emilia
> km 182 Modena
> km 219 Bologna
> 
> =========================
> 
> km 0 Milano Centrale
> km 34 (Treviglio)
> km 66 (Rovato)
> km 83 Brescia
> km 11 Desenzano
> km 125 Peschiera
> km 148 Verona
> km 172 (San Bonifacio)
> km 200 Vicenza
> km 230 Padova
> km 258 Venezia Mestre
> km 267 Venezia Santa Lucia
> 
> Without brackets are the cities where InterCity trains stop, with brackets onther smalelr cities where only some IC stops.
> 
> http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/fe...toid=edc05e88951ac010VgnVCM1000002f2af90aRCRD


^^ Please post Italian HSR related stuff in a "italian HSR" topic ... it would be much more usefull that way. :cheers:

mg: that tunnel in the way to Malaga is wonderfull ... I just _"need"_ to go there as soon as possible. :cheers:


----------



## jarbury

What's the deal with a new high-speed line cutting really close to La Sagrada Familia? I know that when I was there last month the church had a big display upon how it might undermine the foundations of this truly amazing building.

Anyone have more info?


----------



## sotavento

Isn't that the 2nd tunel under Barcelona to carry the HSL to france ?


----------



## Bitxofo

^^It will be the 3r railway tunnel under Barcelona, but the 1st for high speed railway.
:yes:
A strong renforcement of Sagrada Familia foundations is being made, do not worry!

Moreover:
Actually, now there are 2 metro tunnels under Sagrada Familia: line 2 and line 5.
:wink2:


----------



## jarbury

Thanks for the info. Yeah I figured the metro would probably go underneath as there's a station basically right next to the church.


----------



## pietje01

more info about the AVE tunnel under the Sagrada Familia can be found here (the sections in English, Spanish and Catalan are the most informing)
the tunnels don't go really under the temple, but right next to its foundations.
the metro tunnels are exactly under the roads in front of the temple.
The new tunnel is being constructed at a much deeper level, so it should be OK.

It shouldn't really be a problem to construct the new tunnel, if you see how the Antwerp rail tunnel was dug under the Central Station building.


----------



## Ribarca

pietje01 said:


> more info about the AVE tunnel under the Sagrada Familia can be found here (the sections in English, Spanish and Catalan are the most informing)
> the tunnels don't go really under the temple, but right next to its foundations.
> the metro tunnels are exactly under the roads in front of the temple.
> The new tunnel is being constructed at a much deeper level, so it should be OK.
> 
> It shouldn't really be a problem to construct the new tunnel, if you see how the Antwerp rail tunnel was dug under the Central Station building.


If you know the recent history about the new tunnels that were built in Barcelona you know why many fear for this one.


----------



## gincan

What's the deal with the extremely generous Renfe timetables? A few weeks ago I bought a return ticket to Zaragoza with the AVE. On the Barcelona-Zaragoza trip the train made long stops in both Tarragona (5min) and Lleida (10 min). It also came to a complete stop in the middle of nowhere in between Lleida and Zaragoza for about 5min. Despite this the train arrived on time, actually a minute ahead of the timetable?

On the return trip (nonstop) the train came to a complete stop midway, after about six-seven minutes it began to move but still managed to enter the Barcelona trainstation 4 minutes ahead of the timetable.


----------



## Bitxofo

^^It is because they give you all the money back if the train is delayed more than 15 minutes, so they "inflate" the journey time.
:yes:


----------



## Hubert Pollak

Bitxofo said:


> ^^It is because they give you all the money back if the train is delayed more than 15 minutes, so they "inflate" the journey time.
> :yes:


It's stupid. I think the better would be to have a bigger fares, faster travel times and just pay for delayed.

I think thath Renfe need serious competition on your tracks.


----------



## TheHardMenPath

I guess they're inflating the timetables until they set the top speed at 350 km/h. We just have to take a look to the timetables in the Madrid-Seville line and then ask somebody who has used this line, to see if the trains stop there as well.

Anybody?


----------



## Bitxofo

Hubert Pollak said:


> It's stupid. I think the better would be to have a bigger fares, faster travel times and just pay for delayed.
> 
> I think thath Renfe need serious competition on your tracks.


It is what they do:
-Big prices: 106-125€ for one way!hno:
-Faster train: 2h.38min.
-All money refunded if the train arrives to destination 15 minutes delayed or more.
:dunno:
The real travel time for direct services could be 2h.15min., but they set 2h. 38min.

I agree with you: RENFE needs serious concurrence!
:yes:


TheHardMenPath said:


> I guess they're inflating the timetables until they set the top speed at 350 km/h. We just have to take a look to the timetables in the Madrid-Seville line and then ask somebody who has used this line, to see if the trains stop there as well.
> 
> Anybody?


^^From Madrid to Seville is 476km. From Barcelona to Madrid is 620km. Both high speed trains take more or less the same time: 2h.30min. approx.
:yes:
At the beginning, in 1992, trains from Madrid to Seville took 3h. Now the faster train takes 2h.15min. approx. But those trains are slower and the distance is shorter. And, in Seville line, RENFE refunds all money back if the train arrives to destination 5 minutes late or more!
kay:
I have used both lines several times.
:wink2:


----------



## arriaca

^^

You forget that his line is new (the HST trains arrived at Barcelona since February), and the trains run over a new system (ERTMS / ETCS II)


----------



## TheHardMenPath

Bitxofo said:


> At the beginning, in 1992, trains from Madrid to Seville took 3h. Now the faster train takes 2h.15min. approx. But those trains are slower and the distance is shorter. And, in Seville line, RENFE refunds all money back if the train arrives to destination 5 minutes late or more!
> kay:
> I have used both lines several times.
> :wink2:


Thanks a lot for the info, but they do (or did) stop in the Madrid-Seville line, or they (didn't) don't?
Because i see it like it's more a gap for timetable adjustement or more likely a safety mattress to avoid unforeseen events.


----------



## Bitxofo

^^Some trains stopped/stops but some other trains were/are direct without stops between Madrid and Seville.
:wink2:


----------



## elfabyanos

TheHardMenPath said:


> Thanks a lot for the info, but they do (or did) stop in the Madrid-Seville line, or they (didn't) don't?
> Because i see it like it's more a gap for timetable adjustement or more likely a safety mattress to avoid unforeseen events.


Its known as recovery time or slack. Very common timetable tactic.


----------



## gincan

elfabyanos said:


> Its known as recovery time or slack. Very common timetable tactic.


Yea but normaly the timetable on any service has a recovery time of 5-10 min. On the Barcelona-Madrid line it has to be in the 30 min region for the 3h 23min service.

Only on the Barcelona-Zaragoza section there were some 15-20 min of recovery time (5-6 min of extra time space between every stop), that's insane for a 300km trip.


----------



## Bitxofo

^^Yes, it is insane so much recovery time. RENFE is afraid of refunding money for delays, I presume...
hno:


----------



## 33Hz

I once went from Cordoba to Seville. The train arrived outside Seville station 10 minutes early (on like a 45 minute trip). It then sat there for 40 minutes due to a signal fault.

I got my money back. I had to come back the next day and fill in a long form. It tested my Spanish to its limits  .


----------



## TheHardMenPath

Bitxofo said:


> ^^Some trains stopped/stops but some other trains were/are direct without stops between Madrid and Seville.
> :wink2:


I know. I'm spanish.


----------



## Bitxofo

Last Friday the AVE leaving from Barcelona at 16.30 arrived to Madrid 5 minutes before the time: at 19.03. I was on that train.
:yes:


----------



## ETR401

joseph1951 said:


> Fiat had a project of a super pendolino capable of 320km/h. This super pendolino named "Avrila) also had air brakes.
> It was never built.


The story as I know it is a bit different:
The AVRIL train was not the projected (and never built) "Superpendolino":

Avril was projected as an 8-carriages EMU based on independent wheels trucks of very short length (just 1,800 mm.) and capable of speed of 320 kph.
The Superpendolino was meant to be a train joining a revenue speed of 300 kph on HSL lines and tilting mechanism on classical network.

The first never saw the ligth because the tests of the indipendent wheel bogie were not as good as expected (first of all.....)
The latter was abandoned when FIAT got rid of its railroad subdivision (FIAT Ferroviaria) and the French Alstom bought it.
Of course Alstom had to choose between developing its TGV and the Superpendolino and......guess what??


----------



## Bipo

AVRIL means Alta Velocidad Rueda Independiente Ligero (Light Independent Wheel High Speed) and it's a project of the spanish corp. Talgo.

It is a kind of "Pato" (Renfe S-102 AVE) with more seats in the space where are now all the electric stuff. They try to put all that equipment under the floor (as a AGV or Velaro), buy only in the place of the extreme cars, while the rest of cars are normal Talgo AV cars, as in a "Pato".

They expect to release this model between 1011-2013


----------



## Bipo

Here you can see the two trains. First the "Pato" Renfe S-102 AVE, and below the AVRIL project. Common bogie could not be implemented on final design (due to weight-per-axe limit, it could be exceed).



















Traction cars are only the extreme ones, like in the "Pato".

The Pato could achieve more than 360 km/h, and the new AVRIL would be able to run at a constant speed over 400 km/h mg:


----------



## ETR401

So, there are two different projects sharing the same name.
The only "AVRIL" I knew of (short of: Alta Velocità, Ruote Indipendenti, Leggero) was the project I menctioned before, drawn by the italian engineer Romano Panagin.
I knew nothing about the spanish "Pato Avril". Thanks for the information. 
BTW: where can I get some more details of the Avril train you are talking about?
Thanks in advance.


----------



## Bipo

^^

Sorry, but you can't. A couple of Talgo engineers told me about it, but I don't know anything else :dunno:


----------



## Bitxofo

Bipo said:


> Here you can see the two trains. First the "Pato" Renfe S-102 AVE, and below the AVRIL project. Common bogie could not be implemented on final design (due to weight-per-axe limit, it could be exceed).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Traction cars are only the extreme ones, like in the "Pato".
> 
> The Pato could achieve more than 360 km/h, and the new AVRIL would be able to run at a constant speed over 400 km/h mg:


400km/h as constant speed?
:eek2:


----------



## Bipo

^^

Remember that SNCF are testing their TGVs at very high speeds (last May they reach more than 580 km/h!!) because they are planning to operate at constant speeds of 150 m/s (*540 km/h*) before 2020s decade is out mg:

Their objective is making TGVs able to travel from Lille to Marseille in less than 2:30 hours (Applied to Spain: Málaga-Barcelona in 2:30 or less, Madrid-Barcelona just a little over an hour!) :shocked:


----------



## Coccodrillo

Bipo said:


> because they are planning to operate at constant speeds of 150 m/s (*540 km/h*) before 2020s decade is out mg:


no


----------



## Bipo

^^

Yes, an ADIF engineer told me about it last month :yes:


----------



## hans280

Bipo said:


> Yes, an ADIF engineer told me about it last month :yes:


Bipo, I think you're mistaken - or, at least, overinterpreting what you've been told. I live in Paris and I am a keen reader of French rail magazines, and what you say is news to me. The name "Projet V150" was given to the concrete undertaking that secured SNCF its new speed record on LGV-Est last year. It is true that the speed record, and by extension V150, has been billed on various websites as part of an effort to obtain material speed increases on the main lines over the coming 20 years. 

But, as far as I know, that's about all there is to it. SNCF has said publicly - in unrelated contexts - that they expect a cruising speed of 360 km/h within the foreseeable future. And this they must say: people here in France are quite fetichistic about Three Hours as the maximal travel time between two cities in regular point-to-point service. And, if 3 hours are to be obtained on the nascent Paris-Toulouse and Paris-Nice lines, then 360 km/h is the order of the day. As for the rest of their big words... I suspect that they - as well as to some extent the speed record - had as their main purpose strengthning Alstom's marketing position in the emerging HST markets outside Europe.


----------



## Bipo

^^

Well, that's quite logical, but you also know that increasing speed must not be stopped at 360 km/h. Maybe that will be the top speed for next 10 or 15 years, but is neccesary to keep on testing over those speeds with the aim of, in a _not-so-far_ future, HST will be able to reach higher speed in regular services.

High Speed Trains *must* replace planes in all less-than-1.000 km routes. Burning kerosene for relatively short distances, as lots of countries are doing at the moment, is not sustainable. And the only way to get that objective is making trains faster and faster.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ the power consumption is not proportional to the speed.

An increase of 10% of speed (300 to 330) is not necessarly a 10% increase in power consumption.

And it is not easy to mantain such speeds.

We can't know what will be possible in 2050, but as for now, even "only" 360 km/h are difficult to mantain.


----------



## Koen Acacia

Bipo said:


> ^^
> 
> Well, that's quite logical, but you also know that increasing speed must not be stopped at 360 km/h. Maybe that will be the top speed for next 10 or 15 years, but is neccesary to keep on testing over those speeds with the aim of, in a _not-so-far_ future, HST will be able to reach higher speed in regular services.
> *
> High Speed Trains must replace planes in all less-than-1.000 km routes*. Burning kerosene for relatively short distances, as lots of countries are doing at the moment, is not sustainable. And the only way to get that objective is making trains faster and faster.


The thing is, that at 360 km/h, trains *can* replace planes on those routes. We just need the rails for them. If you're going to look at longer routes higher speeds are going to help of course but there, infrastructure is going to be even more of an issue.


----------



## Bipo

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ the power consumption is not proportional to the speed.
> 
> An increase of 10% of speed (300 to 330) is not necessarly a 10% increase in power consumption.
> 
> And it is not easy to mantain such speeds.
> 
> We can't know what will be possible in 2050, but as for now, even "only" 360 km/h are difficult to mantain.


Increasing top speed from 300 to 350 km/h (+16%) increases power consumption only +8%, but that speed increase would make that HSTs "steal" more an more passenger from airplanes, that as you know burn lots of kerosene. As a result, overall power consumption is not increased, but it is reduced.




Koen Acacia said:


> The thing is, that at 360 km/h, trains *can* replace planes on those routes. We just need the rails for them. If you're going to look at longer routes higher speeds are going to help of course but there, infrastructure is going to be even more of an issue.


Even for shorter routes, faster trains would make more people let the car at home and take the train. In fact, between Tokyo and Osaka, at the moment, Nozomi HST takes no more than 2:30, but they are going to build a new MagLev HST that would make HSTs to be able to keep on running at constant speeds over 500 km/h, and to do the same route in just one hour or a bit more.

In HST there is a concept very very clear: The faster it goes, the more people it "catch" from other kinds of transport. And HSTs are the most envioremental-friendly transportation way.


----------



## Koen Acacia

Bipo said:


> Even for shorter routes, faster trains would make more people let the car at home and take the train. In fact, between Tokyo and Osaka, at the moment, Nozomi HST takes no more than 2:30, but they are going to build a new MagLev HST that would make HSTs to be able to keep on running at constant speeds over 500 km/h, and to do the same route in just one hour or a bit more.
> 
> In HST there is a concept very very clear: The faster it goes, the more people it "catch" from other kinds of transport. And HSTs are the most envioremental-friendly transportation way.


Sorry, I fail to see how that would affect a passenger's decision in any noticeable way. 
If the price is competitive, and door-to-door travel would cost me only three hours instead of a plane's 3.5 hours, I'll take the TGV, easy. Now, they speed the thing up, and it's only going to take me 2.5 hours instead of the previous three. Result: I'll still take the TGV, just like I did before (unless, of course, that extra speed means they're not price-competitive anymore).


----------



## Bipo

^^

Travelling time makes the difference.

I'll show you a perfect example: In the Madid - Barcelona corridor, "air bridge" take almost 90% of passengers. Even with te fast train "Alvia" (just 75€) that only took 3:55, people continued going on plane. Well, last February the AVE services (120€, a 60% more expensive than Alvia) began at last, taking between 3:20 (services with stops) and only 2:38 (direct services) for the same travel. Result: nowadays more than 50% of passengers take the AVE to go between those cities, and it began working only six months ago! I'm sure that before one year it will take 80% or more percent of the passengers.

Time is a precious and people know it.


----------



## VegaM

*Rail now taking 30% of Barcelona - Madrid route*

The latest data from AENA indicates that the new high-speed rail service between Madrid and Barcelona has reduced air travel demand between the two cities by around 30%. In 2007 the route carried almost five million passengers. This year the figure is likely to fall to around 3.5 million.










http://www.anna.aero/2008/08/15/spanish-airports-hit-turbulence-in-second-quarter-of-2008/


----------



## sotavento

Koen Acacia said:


> Sorry, I fail to see how that would affect a passenger's decision in any noticeable way.
> If the price is competitive, and door-to-door travel would cost me only three hours instead of a plane's 3.5 hours, I'll take the TGV, easy. Now, they speed the thing up, and it's only going to take me 2.5 hours instead of the previous three. Result: I'll still take the TGV, just like I did before (unless, of course, that extra speed means they're not price-competitive anymore).


^^ Your logic has a hole in it ...

It's not about you going for the 2,5 hours it took you to go previously ... but in fact is about you going (either if you went previously in 3h or 3,5h or even not going at all) for the 1h it takes to get you on the other side nowadays.

:cheers:


----------



## Bitxofo

Koen Acacia said:


> Sorry, I fail to see how that would affect a passenger's decision in any noticeable way.
> If the price is competitive, and door-to-door travel would cost me only three hours instead of a plane's 3.5 hours, I'll take the TGV, easy. Now, they speed the thing up, and it's only going to take me 2.5 hours instead of the previous three. Result: I'll still take the TGV, just like I did before (unless, of course, that extra speed means they're not price-competitive anymore).


^^The problem is the price:
AVE from BCN to MAD or vice versa: from 50 to 125 euros for one way.
Plane from BCN to Madrid or vice versa: from 35 to 100 euros for one way.
:dunno:
I choose plane, for the moment...
:yes:


----------



## Koen Acacia

Bitxofo said:


> ^^The problem is the price:
> AVE from BCN to MAD or vice versa: from 50 to 125 euros for one way.
> Plane from BCN to Madrid or vice versa: from 35 to 100 euros for one way.
> :dunno:
> I choose plane, for the moment...
> :yes:


If the problem is the price, then I doubt that those prices will go down by speeding the thing up more. Every extra km of speed is more expensive than the previous one.
At those prices, I'd *definitely* take the AVE over the plane btw. You're just mentioning the cost of the plane ticket here, and for some reason I doubt that getting to/from the Madrid/Barcelona airports has suddenly become free.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ When I was in Barcelona, the plane to Madrid was delayed 6 hours. I bet at least some of those people who had to wait will take the train next time.


----------



## Cicerón

Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ When I was in Barcelona, the plane to Madrid was delayed 6 hours. I bet at least some of those people who had to wait will take the train next time.


Maybe yes, but I suppose that flight was not part of the "puente aéreo", in which you can buy a ticket for one day and travel when you want to. Normally the people who travels form Barcelona to Madrid or vice-versa by plane take the "puente aéreo", with flights every hour. So, these people aren't really affected by delays. 

However, to take the "puente aéreo" you have to arrive to the airport 1 hour before the plane leaves (in opposition with the two hours of a normal flight), and once you've landed, take another taxi/metro to the center of the city, while the high speed train leaves you in the center of the city and arriving to the station 10 minutes before is enough.


----------



## Bitxofo

Koen Acacia said:


> If the problem is the price, then I doubt that those prices will go down by speeding the thing up more. Every extra km of speed is more expensive than the previous one.
> At those prices, I'd *definitely* take the AVE over the plane btw. You're just mentioning the cost of the plane ticket here, and for some reason I doubt that getting to/from the Madrid/Barcelona airports has suddenly become free.


From Barcelona centre to BCN El Prat airport by public transport the price is 1,30 or 2,60 euros and it takes by 25 min.
From Madrid centre to MAD Barajas airport by public transport the price is 2 euros and it takes by 45 min.
kay:


Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ When I was in Barcelona, the plane to Madrid was delayed 6 hours. I bet at least some of those people who had to wait will take the train next time.


^^That is NOT normal... Did you fly with VUELiNG?
:?
You must know that, if the plane is delayed 5 or more hours you can get your money back plus indemnization.
:yes:


----------



## Koen Acacia

Bitxofo said:


> From Barcelona centre to BCN El Prat airport by public transport the price is 1,30 or 2,60 euros and it takes by 25 min.
> From Madrid centre to MAD Barajas airport by public transport the price is 2 euros and it takes by 45 min.


In that case, you've spent one hour 10 minutes at minimum in order to save about 10 euro's. Most likely, there were waiting times involved, planes can be delayed, plane companies require you to check in a certain amount of time before lift off, you have to wait for your luggage.. let's be optimistic and assume that all that will take an extra 50 minutes. That's two hours total to save a tenner.

Sorry, and to each his own of course, but I don't work for 5 euro an hour.


----------



## Bipo

^^

But Bitxo works at the BCN airport, so...


----------



## Bitxofo

^^Yes, plane is better in my case.


----------



## gerarsx

Bitxofo said:


> From Barcelona centre to BCN El Prat airport by public transport the price is 1,30 or 2,60 euros and it takes by 25 min.
> From Madrid centre to MAD Barajas airport by public transport the price is 2 euros and it takes by 45 min.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 45 min from Madrid centre to MAD Barajas?!?!well, if you want to go walking...by metro, from Nuevos Ministerios to Aeropuerto T4 is 20 min.


----------



## Bitxofo

gerarsx said:


> 45 min from Madrid centre to MAD Barajas?!?!well, if you want to go walking...by metro, from Nuevos Ministerios to Aeropuerto T4 is 20 min.


Nuevos Ministerios is not Madrid centre, but the business district.

From Barajas to Sol (city centre) it takes around 45-50 min. by metro. I do it many times.
:yes:


----------



## arriaca

Bitxofo said:


> Nuevos Ministerios is not Madrid centre, but the business district.
> 
> From Barajas to Sol (city centre) it takes around 45-50 min. by metro. I do it many times.
> :yes:



¿?

Nuevos Ministerios is the center. Sol is in the historic center.


----------



## Stifler

Bitxofo said:


> Nuevos Ministerios is not Madrid centre, but the business district.


Come on...


----------



## Bitxofo

arriaca said:


> ¿?
> 
> Nuevos Ministerios is the center. Sol is in the historic center.





Stifler said:


> Come on...


I was talking about historical centre.

And kilometre zero of Spain is in Puerta del Sol.


----------



## caminerillo

Bitxofo said:


> I was talking about historical centre.
> *
> And kilometre zero of Spain is in Puerta del Sol.*


The km. 0 of the Madrid radial motorways.


----------



## Bitxofo

caminerillo said:


> The km. 0 of the Madrid radial motorways.


Not exactly: it is the kilometre zero of Spanish National roads: NI, NII, NIII, NIV, NV and NVI.
:wink2:


----------



## caminerillo

Bitxofo said:


> Not exactly: it is the kilometre zero of Spanish National roads: NI, NII, NIII, NIV, NV and NVI.
> :wink2:


I know. But is not the kilometre zero of all "spanish national roads", is the kilometre zero of only NI, NII, NIII, NIV, NV and NVI and their respective A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, A-5 and A-6.


----------



## gincan

OK now to get the thread back on track I post a poster by Fomento about the viaduct south of Jerez that was inaugurated last summer. The poster basically give some information about the cost of the section put into service and the pic on the right side show the status of the Seville-Cadiz HSR project circa july 2007. The viaduct on the poster is the longest in Spain at 3222 meters. The section put into service was the one between Jerez de la Frontera and El Puerto de Santa Maria, it is possible to see it during its construction in Google Earth. At the same time another section between El Puerto de Santa Maria and Puerto Real was also put into service.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Bitxofo said:


> ^^That is NOT normal... Did you fly with VUELiNG?
> :?
> You must know that, if the plane is delayed 5 or more hours you can get your money back plus indemnization.
> :yes:


I wasn't flying to Madrid, fortunately , but I noticed it on the "departing flights" screen.


----------



## doinel

Btw, are there any plans to connect Barajas Airport with the HSL-network in the near future?
During my last year's trip in Madrid I noticed that there are some platforms at the T4-Train station which weren't used yet.


----------



## Stifler

doinel said:


> Btw, are there any plans to connect Barajas Airport with the HSL-network in the near future?
> During my last year's trip in Madrid I noticed that there are some platforms at the T4-Train station which weren't used yet.


The railway between T4 and Chamartin Station (used for Northern HSL) is already under construction and should be on service in 2010. Conmuter trains will take around 10 minutes on that route. Atocha Station (the main HSL-station) and Chamartin Station are currently connected by conmuter trains in 12 minutes.

There were some talks about building a HSL-station in Barajas, but it was rejected if my memory doesn't fail.


----------



## Bipo

ETR401 said:


> So, there are two different projects sharing the same name.
> The only "AVRIL" I knew of (short of: Alta Velocità, Ruote Indipendenti, Leggero) was the project I menctioned before, drawn by the italian engineer Romano Panagin.
> I knew nothing about the spanish "Pato Avril". Thanks for the information.
> BTW: where can I get some more details of the Avril train you are talking about?
> Thanks in advance.


Here you are :



> Así es AVRIL, el nuevo tren de Talgo   Las noticias  -  Técnica  Lunes, 22 de Septiembre de 2008 01:29
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Alta Velocidad Rueda Independiente Ligero - AVRIL". Así de completo y dislocado es el acrónimo de la familia de trenes que la fabricante española *Talgo tiene sobre el tablero de diseño*. El tren -o más bien su concepto- fue presentado en primicia el jueves 18 de septiembre en una Mesa Redonda en la que no faltó nadie, y con la que los responsables del Máster de Sistemas Ferroviarios que ahora comienza su 7º curso querían dar una visión de conjunto del *futuro* de estos vehículos. A juzgar por lo expuesto, el de Talgo entra plenamente en esta categoría.
> 
> 
> Para empezar con el rosario de sorpresas, la plataforma (lean familia) de trenes AVRIL está diseñada para *un máximo de 380 km/h*, y sigue el principio básico de los tiempos: en un mercado liberalizado, los operadores ferroviarios quieren trenes más rentables. Y eso significa más capacidad, y menos costes de operación.
> 
> Entre las escasas características técnicas de AVRIL que Talgo desveló ante el público, y ante una nutrida representación de su competencia (Siemens, East Japan Rail, Korail, CAF, Siemens, Bombardier), destaca una por encima de todas: la española insiste en el *piso bajo*, a la misma altura del andén interoperable, que permite que los viajeros suban y bajen con rapidez, ganando así tiempo en las paradas.
> 
> Para ello, claro, Talgo mantiene su clásico sistema de *rodales *(rodaduras con ruedas independientes entre sí) y tren articulado por ellos (sirven de apoyo a un coche y al contiguo). E insiste en sus bondades: es más ligero y más respetuoso con la vía.
> 
> *Ligero pero matón*
> 
> 
> También llama la atención poderosamente la idea con la que trabajan en la fabricante para distribuir la tracción a lo largo del tren. Ni tracción concentrada (en las dos cabezas tractoras) ni tracción distribuida (a lo largo del tren), sino *todo lo contrario*.
> 
> El tren será así una ensalada de bojes con ejes motorizados (el 42% de los ejes) y rodales que, según Talgo, permitirá un mejor aprovechamiento de la energía y del espacio: hasta un 87% de la longitud del tren será utilizable para viajeros y servicios, *hasta alcanzar las 470 plazas* en su configuración estánda, y las *540* en una configuración denominada "de alta capacidad" (su diseño promete ser sorprendente).
> 
> Todo un salto si se tiene en cuenta que la Serie 102, actualmente en servicio con la librea de Renfe en servicios comerciales AVE, cuenta apenas con 318. No acaba ahí la cosa, porque Talgo promete que en su AVRIL caben hasta un 18% más de cabezas para cada configuración de las dos citadas, si hablamos de la versión de *gálibo ancho*.
> 
> Y es que la familia AVRIL no es un solo tren, sino una especie de combinación de anchos de vía y tensiones de electrificación difícil de enumerar (sumen y multipliquen por factorial). En su presentación, Talgo aseguró así que trabajan para diseñar trenes que puedan exportarse a países en los que el ancho sea de *1.435, 1.520 y 1.668 mm*... o de varios de ellos a la vez, porque el* ancho variable* también está sobre la mesa.
> 
> Como no sólo con raíles se mueve el tren, la empresa señala además que los 8.800 kW de potencia total de los trenes de esta familia (ya parece tribu) podrán obtenerse de hilos de contacto a *cuatro tensiones distintas*: 25 kV/ 50Hz; 15 kV/16.7 Hz; 3kV CC; 1.5 kV CC. No se despeinen, que no hemos acabado. El tren también podría fabricarse en* versión diésel... o híbrida*, variando como es obvio la potencia total que es capaz de desarrollar, y con ella la velocidad máxima.
> 
> *Consumo reducido*
> 
> 
> Con todas esas características, la empresa espera reducir el peso hasta las 287 toneladas (322 tiene la Serie 102), para reducir al mínimo el consumo energético desde un nivel que ya es pequeño, gracias a la estructura de rodales y al bajo perfil aerodinámico de los coches Talgo. Un* 7% menos por kilómetro* que su antecesor (que roza los 16 kWh/km) o lo que es lo mismo, un 31% menos por plaza-kilómetro.
> 
> Se trata en resumen, y siempre según la fabricante, de un diseño mucho más eficiente que su antecesor, que pretende aprovechar su concepto industrial clásico en un mercado de crecimiento explosivo y lleno de oportunidades, obteniendo lo mejor de la tracción distribuida y la concentrada, y maximizando las variables que más le gustan al operador. *Que consuma menos, que quepan más*.


http://www.altavelocidad.org/tecnica/515-lo-nuevo-de-talgo-se-llama-avril


----------



## ETR401

Interesting.....:wink2:
:eat:

Thank you very much!!!


----------



## Railfan

But forget redesign the front of the train


----------



## Kuvvaci

wonderful system... 

We bought CAf's from Spain to operate between Ankara-Istanbul. Do you think they are good trains?


----------



## Bitxofo

^^Yes, they are very good trains.
:yes:


----------



## Kuvvaci

how many kind of HST sets operate in Spain, and what are their differences?


----------



## Stifler

Kuvvaci said:


> how many kind of HST sets operate in Spain, and what are their differences?


Class 100 (Alstom)
Top speed: 300 km/h
Used in Madrid-Seville HSL since 1992.









Class 101 (Alstom)
Top Speed: 220 km/h
Used in Euromed services (Barcelona-Valencia-Alicante) in iberian gauge.









Class 102 (Talgo and Bombardier)
Top Speed: 330 km/h
Used in Madrid-Malaga and Madrid-Valladolid HSL.









Class 103 (Siemens)
Top Speed: 350 km/h
Used in the Northwest (Barcelona) and South (Seville/Malaga) HS-corridors.









Class 104 (Alstom and CAF)
Top Speed: 250 km/h
Used in Avant services, short distances like Madrid-Toledo or Seville-Malaga









Class 120 (Alstom and CAF)
Top Speed: 250 km/h
Used in Alvia services, since they can be used both in international and iberian gauge.









Class 121
Top Speed: 250 km/h
Extremely similar to Class 121, but they are used for Avant Services.









Class 130 (Talgo and Bombardier)
Top Speed: 250 km/h
Used in Alvia services, since they can be used both in international and iberian gauge.


----------



## LochNESS

Wow those trains are truely great, especially their interoperability. Can drive on three gauges and on so many different voltages. I'd love to see those things here


----------



## Kuvvaci

thank you very very much for this informatic post kay:

yes we bought this Class 120 CAF from you. Why do you call "Alstrom and CAF" is it joint production?



Stifler said:


> Class 120 (Alstom and CAF)
> Top Speed: 250 km/h
> Used in Alvia services, since they can be used both in international and iberian gauge.


----------



## sdf11

The Ave S:102 "Pato" in now running between Barcelona-Malaga & Barcelona-Sevilla!

Im happy to see again this wonderful train in the northwest corridor!!:banana::banana:...I love the Pato!


----------



## Bitxofo

^^I love the "duck", too!
:happy:


----------



## Kuvvaci

LochNESS said:


> Wow those trains are truely great, especially their interoperability. Can drive on three gauges and on so many different voltages. I'd love to see those things here


what is its speed?


----------



## Bipo

^^

380 km/h :colgate:


----------



## Bitxofo

^^It will be, in future.


----------



## Kuvvaci

for international or national line?


----------



## arriaca

^^ 



LochNESS said:


> Wow those trains are truely great, especially their interoperability. *Can drive on three gauges and on so many different voltages.* I'd love to see those things here



@ Bipo: espero que coja todo lo que dé :lol:


----------



## Bipo

^^

_Of course, my friend_


----------



## Kuvvaci

I am curious about non-High speed trains of Spain?


----------



## Bipo

^^

Visit www.tranvia.org

In the "galeria" you can see lots of photos


----------



## Kuvvaci

thank you kay:


----------



## mr_storms

Bipo said:


> ^^
> 
> 380 km/h :colgate:


If it actually actually goes that fast commercially, that would be sweet.
You Spanish can keep the patos, more Velaros for everyone else .

Seriously, though, the massive success of the Madrid-Barcelona line has been nice for those of us in California because it is a very convincing argument for HSR (as Spain and CA have similar demographics/ geography) thus giving us yet example to fight the opposition.


----------



## Spam King

mr_storms said:


> If it actually actually goes that fast commercially, that would be sweet.
> You Spanish can keep the patos, more Velaros for everyone else .
> 
> Seriously, though, the massive success of the Madrid-Barcelona line has been nice for those of us in California because it is a very convincing argument for HSR (as Spain and CA have similar demographics/ geography) thus giving us yet example to fight the opposition.


380km/h would be amazing in commercial service, though i doubt they'd run it that fast (more wear, higher operating/maintanance costs), 330km/h seems more realistic. i just wish they'd get more velaros, they're definatly my favorite trains design wise.

i hope california decides on the velaro too! although i see AGV being more likely


----------



## Cicerón

city_thing said:


> What station in Barcelona will the new HSL use?
> 
> I think I read something about it being underground, and there was a possibility that it might damage that huge cathedral by Gaudi (I can't remember the name of it)
> 
> And what station will be used in Madrid?
> 
> More pictures/renders please
> 
> Spanish architecture is f*cking hot.


Barcelona Sants and Barcelona Sagrera will both be used, but the most important station will be Sagrera (see location). 

Here you have an interesting PDF with renders and maps (2.6 MB): http://prensa.adif.es/ade/u08/GAP/P...ra-Nudo de la Trinidad Sector Sant Andreu.pdf


As for Madrid, Chamartín will be the main stop for HSLs to Castile and Leon, Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria and the Basque Country, while Atocha will serve Castile-La Mancha, Aragon, Catalonia, Valencian Community, Murcia, Andalusia, Extremadura, Navarre and La Rioja. Both stations will be connected through a new tunnel. The map:









(Source)

Also, as the number of passengers will increase with the construction of the new lines, both stations are being enlarged.

As for Atocha, here you have two PDFs, including renders and maps:
(1.9 MB):
http://www.madridiario.es/madridiario/madrid/Paneles Atocha Estacion.pdf

(4.1 MB): http://www.madridiario.es/madridiario/madrid/Paneles Atocha Remodelacion calles.pdf

And some diagrams about Chamartín (1.3 MB): http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/...0-CF9711BFA479/39690/081223MapasChamartin.pdf





hans280 said:


> I have a more general question to our Spanish friends. Many of the new projects (e.g. in the Basque country) seem to involve small bits of HSL wedged into classic lines. How is this possible in practice, since as far as I know the classic railway lines in Spain have another gauge width than the new highspeed lines? Are they going to use only variable-gauge trains on these lines?


Well, obviously the gauge will be changed from Iberian to UIC in those stretches. The same has been done in Galicia on the HSL "Eje Atlántico". The "gauge changers" are too expensive to put lots of them in every line and the trains have to slow down while they pass through them. Therefore it's cheaper to change the rails. Also, there are plans to convert all the Spanish lines to UIC gauge, but I don't think it's done until... 2030? :lol:


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## Cicerón

Well, due to the success of this thread, I also want to show you the works of my hometown's new station.

Currently the railway cuts the town in two from East to West even though it goes on a "trench", also the people living near it are tired of the noise caused by the trains, especially the freight ones. Fortunately the freight station was moved to a industrial estate located in the outskirts.

Then they decided to cover the railway and make a new underground station for trains and buses. The project also includes five twenty-storey towers... not bad for a 150,000 inhabitants town.

The new sleepers will support Iberian and UIC gauge, so that the gauge can be easily changed when the HSL arrives. 

Here you have a picture by the forumer Titin. 



>


^^ This position is for UIC gauge, when the rail is on the left it's for Iberian gauge.

Some renders:






































While the underground station is built and the railways covered, there will be a provisional station (in green).









These pictures were taken on September 2008, the provisional station is already in use.

1. Looking West. The provisional station to the left, the workshops and old station to the right. 









2. You can see that the old rails of the freight station have been dismantled.









3.









4. Placing the catenary









5. Looking East. The provisional railway.









6.


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## gincan

Here is a better photo of the dual gauge sleepers, by monolo










These types of sleepers are installed on every singel railwayline in spain so that they can convert it in the future, ofcause the big problem will be the conversion of the rollingstock.


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## Coccodrillo

gincan said:


> ofcause the big problem will be the conversion of the rollingstock.


All modern trains have been projected with the conversion to standard gauge in mind.

And if and when the gauge will be changed (I hope as soon as possible) probably all train will be convertible.


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## pcrail

*HSL Madrid - Cuenca - Valencia*

Here some pictures from August 2008. They show the work at the high speed line in Castilla La Mancha. The pcitures are taken South of Torencón.


















Bridge carrying the CM-200 over the future HSR line.









View in West direction near the bridge.


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## Kuvvaci

wonderful project


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## Fugit

Will new line Barcelona-Figueras and next to Perpignan be open this year?


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## Celedonio77

*hi*



Fugit said:


> Will new line Barcelona-Figueras and next to Perpignan be open this year?


hi friends, It is expected that this ready for ends of 2010

Even the rail and the overhead power cable being mounted.

bye


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## Coccodrillo

Fugit said:


> Will new line Barcelona-Figueras and next to Perpignan be open this year?


Perpignan-Figueras: this month.

Figueras-Barcelona: 2012.

But the first will be completely useless until 2012, because it ends nowhere near Figueras (not in Figueras station), and there is still the problem of the gauge.


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## pcrail

*HSL Barcelona - French Border north of Figueres*









Picture from 3.2.2008, most probabably taken from 42.355531 2.903674 about 8 km before the temporary end near Figueres.


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## pcrail

Coccodrillo said:


> But the first will be completely useless until 2012, because it ends nowhere near Figueras (not in Figueras station), and there is still the problem of the gauge.


The gauge problem can be solved with the S-130 trains which can change gauge. Afak 4 trains will be prepaired to run till Perpignan, where they will be also able to shunt under 1500 V.


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## Coccodrillo

Thank you, I have read that they planend to use the S130 but I didn't know it was sure. Anyway the S130 cannot be used until the construction of a connection between the new and the old lines and of a gauge changer. That is, in 2010 at the earliest, one year after the opening of the Perpignan-(in the middle of nowhere near) Figueras line.

The new line now ends here: http://maps.google.it/maps?f=q&sour...89056,2.932127&spn=0.011064,0.019226&t=k&z=16


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## gramercy

the dual gauge sleepers are cool, thx for posting images


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## hoosier

I just want to congratulate Spain on building such a great HSR system.

The infrastructure in this country is amazing, much better than America's.


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## pcrail

Coccodrillo said:


> The Perpignan-(in the middle of nowhere near) Figueras line.
> 
> The new line now ends here: http://maps.google.it/maps?f=q&sour...89056,2.932127&spn=0.011064,0.019226&t=k&z=16





javi82 said:


>


Crosspost from the spanish LAV Madrid - Zaragoza - Barcelona - Frontera Francesa thread. The picture show the temporary end in the middle of nowhere as it was in September 2008. Till now nothing changed. (btw: you see a britisch class 37 locomotive parked at the left track.)


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## gincan

I´ve got a question for our Spanish experts here, I´ve been wondering if the Talgo 350 could do the Madrid-Seville faster than the currently fastest schedule of 2h:20m that is adopted for the TGV-A trains?

Since the Talgo has passive tilting, better acceleration, better retardation and the line has many bottlenecks and slow curvs. I believe it should be possible to shave of 5-10 min of traveltime since the Talgo can go faster through the curves and the bottlenecks.


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## Patryk

When exactly will be open a railway line Perpignan - Figueras –Barcelona -Madrid? In this year? I found here (http://inforail.pl/text.php?id=18514&from=tag) information about that the line is to be put into service this year.
PS. The infrastructure in Spain is amazing one of the best on the world


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## gramercy

so, will there be a direct Madrid-Paris connection?


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## [email protected]

I just took the 'Euromed' between Barcelona and Valencia last week. However, what surprised me, was that the train never went faster than 195 km/h obviously due to the fact that this route isn't HSR compatible yet.

Are there any plans to upgrade this line for speeds of 300+ km/h?


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## Cicerón

Patryk said:


> When exactly will be open a railway line Perpignan - Figueras –Barcelona -Madrid? In this year? I found here (http://inforail.pl/text.php?id=18514&from=tag) information about that the line is to be put into service this year.
> PS. The infrastructure in Spain is amazing one of the best on the world


I don't think it's finished until 2011-2012.



[email protected] said:


> I just took the 'Euromed' between Barcelona and Valencia last week. However, what surprised me, was that the train never went faster than 195 km/h obviously due to the fact that this route isn't HSR compatible yet.
> 
> Are there any plans to upgrade this line for speeds of 300+ km/h?


The "Corredor Mediterráneo" is supposed to replace the current line.

Some info: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corredor_Mediterráneo

Pictures of the works in near Tarragona: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=212440&page=6


Bonus: Madrid-Asturias line, near Pajares tunnels.


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## gincan

A collection of construction pics from around spain can be found here

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=119926&page=25


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## hoosier

gincan said:


> A collection of construction pics from around spain can be found here
> 
> http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=119926&page=25


Sweet pics.:cheers:


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## Guest

*Trains (and Stations) of Spain*

From railpictures.net, following the other amazing threads by New York Morning


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## Guest




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## Guest




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## dmarney

Cool railway


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## Ali_B

sorry, don't wanna offense you, but from my point of view it's (a little bit) disturbin' seing pictures without a minimum of explanation, at least place of the picture. So others (non Spaniards in this case, me included) can get an added value by these posted pictures and information ...


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## Gag Halfrunt

^^ I was going to say much the same thing.  Is there any point just dumping photos from railpictures.net without any information or commentary? This kind of thing comes close to being out and out spam, especially when New York Morning posts page after page of the same Russian locomotives even though he's Russian himself and therefore could (a) dig up plenty of imformation about railways in Russia and (b) easily avoid posting photos of the same locomotive classes over and over again.


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## New York Morning

frozen said:


> From railpictures.net, following the other amazing threads by New York Morning


Thanks, amigo  Tambien tengo un poquito, voy a ayudarte


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## New York Morning




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## New York Morning

Gag Halfrunt said:


> ^^ I was going to say much the same thing.  Is there any point just dumping photos from railpictures.net without any information or commentary? This kind of thing comes close to being out and out spam, especially when New York Morning posts page after page of the same Russian locomotives even though he's Russian himself and therefore could (a) dig up plenty of imformation about railways in Russia and (b) easily avoid posting photos of the same locomotive classes over and over again.


I just want my country to be presented in this forum. Is it bad?  About the information: ask me if you wonder smth, Ill answer you.


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## New York Morning




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## New York Morning




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## New York Morning




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## New York Morning




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## New York Morning




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## New York Morning




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## New York Morning




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## Guest

Some information:


There are at least, three different kind of track in Spain

1-Conventional one is wider than the rest of Europe (only Spain and Portugal share the same gauge)

2-High speed trach, which is less wider than the spanish conventional one

3-And FEVE track, which is slightly narrower. That's the reason whyFEVE trains are slowlier than the conventional ones.

FEVE (Ferrocarriles de Vía Estrecha[1], meaning "Narrow-Gauge Railways") is a state-owned Spanish railway company, which operates most of Spain's 1,250 km (777 mi) of metre gauge railway.










FEVE was created in 1965, as a successor to the government-run organization EFE (Explotación de Ferrocarriles por el Estado), which had been taking over failed private railways since 1926. Following the creation in 1941 of RENFE, to which the ownership of all Spanish broad-gauge railways was transferred, EFE had in practice become the operator of a collection of exclusively narrow-gauge lines. The present status of FEVE, as a government-owned commercial company, dates from 1972.

The new company continued to absorb independent narrow-gauge lines (1,435 mm, 1,062 mm, 1,000 mm, 915 mm & 750 mm) which the existing concession holders had been unable to make profitable. However, from 1978 onwards, with the introduction of regional devolution under the new Spanish constitution, *FEVE also began transferring responsibility for a number of its operations to the new regional governments. This happened in Catalonia in 1978, in the Valencian Community in 1986, with a part of the Basque network in 1979, and with Majorcan Railways in 1994.*









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FEVE[/IMG]


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## Guest

More info:











*Renfe* Operadora is the state-owned company which operates freight and passenger trains on the 1668-mm "Iberian gauge" and 1435-mm "European gauge" networks of the Spanish national railway infrastructure company ADIF (Administrador de Infraestructuras Ferroviarias).

[edit] Operations

Map of the Spanish rail network as it was in 2005, with colour-coded track types. Renfe Operadora operates in broad and standard gauge lines.The company operates some 15,000 km of railways, most of which are constructed to the broad "Iberian" gauge of 1668 mm, the same as that used in Portugal but wider than the gauge of 1435 mm which is standard in France and most of western and central Europe. The newer high-speed (AVE) network, however, has been built to the international standard gauge of 1435 mm gauge in anticipation of its eventual connection to the rest of the European railway system. For this reason, the 1435-mm gauge is generally termed "European gauge" in Spain.

*The Spanish high-speed system is called AVE. (Alta Velocidad Española, Spanish High Speed*). The logo incorporates a feature which resembles a bird (ave in Spanish). *The high-speed lines are built to the standard European gauge (1435 mm).*
_Construction of the high-speed rail line between Madrid and Seville began in 1988 and operation commenced in 1991. Train speed on the Seville line is 300 km/h. The second high-speed rail line, from Madrid to Barcelona, was completed in 2007 with the inaugural service commencing at 6 am February 20, 2008. The operational speed on this road is 350 km/h. The greater part of the line, from Madrid to Lleida, was put in service on October 11, 2003, with connection to Huesca from Zaragoza. The third high-speed line, Madrid - Toledo was opened in November 2005, followed by the spur from Córdoba to Málaga as far as Antequera in 2007. Another high-speed route from Madrid to Valladolid was opened in 2007, and other lines to Valencia and Lisbon are being designed. The route Madrid-Galicia is under construction between the major Galician cities._

Other lines operated by Renfe include Alaris, a moderate-speed line between Madrid and Valencia.

In addition to intercity transport, *Renfe operates commuter train systems, known as Cercanías* (or Rodalies in Catalonia and Cercanías-Aldirikoak in the Basque Country), *in eleven metropolitan areas*, including Madrid and Barcelona. The former was targeted in the March 11, 2004 Madrid train bombings. While the latter and some of the regional trains going to Barcelona have been without service since 20 October 2007. In some cities Renfe shares the market with other commuter railway operators, such as FGC in Barcelona.

Map of Spanish railnetwork in 2005, from then up to now other High speed lines were being inaugurated as a Madrid-Barcelona, Marid-Valladolid, Madrid-Málaga (they don't appear in the map)

Yellow line with green dots= High speed line


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## Guest

New York Morning said:


>


This is an old barcelona metro train (which are not in use anymore) (line 5) TMB means "Transports metropolitans de Barcelona)


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## Guest

Gag Halfrunt said:


> ^^ I was going to say much the same thing.  Is there any point just dumping photos from railpictures.net without any information or commentary? This kind of thing comes close to being out and out spam, especially when New York Morning posts page after page of the same Russian locomotives even though he's Russian himself and therefore could (a) dig up plenty of imformation about railways in Russia and (b) easily avoid posting photos of the same locomotive classes over and over again.


 I understand your point, so I add some info


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## davsot

I LOVE Spanish trains. Especially the HSR! :OOO


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## sotavento

Just some details:


these ones are not spanish ... they are portuguese: :cheers:









6000 class Freight loco from Takargo (portuguese freight operator)

















0450 class DMU from CP (state company) in a international train Porto-Vigo-Porto


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## AAJ

In this thread only are putting photos about trains in Spain, but is not talking about them. If someone wants to ask something or contribute, do it! 

Greetings from Madrid.


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## Guest

AAJ said:


> In this thread only are putting photos about trains in Spain, but is not talking about them. If someone wants to ask something or contribute, do it!
> 
> Greetings from Madrid.


Entre el final de la segunda página y al inicio de la tercera he puesto información, pero con tantas fotos ha quedado "sepultado"


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## Guest

New York Morning said:


>


This model of talgo is not in use anymore, it has been replaced by more modern talgo like this



New York Morning said:


>


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## New York Morning

En que ciudad habia tomado esta foto? Me encantan aquellos zapatos 



New York Morning said:


>


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## AAJ

Está tomada en Orense . 

@Frozen: Ya, si lo he visto, pero lo han copado todo de fotos .


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## AAJ

Map of Spanish railway network:










In Spain, lines electrified with 25 KV 50 Hz are High Speed Lines.


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## gincan

A video showing some of the bridges built on the northwest corridor. The first 90 km of this 400km line should open around 2012. With another 90km to open around 2013/2014. The whole line might be finished by 2018 but delays could push it into the 2020s.

http://video.adif.es/video/iLyROoafMEJJ.html

And here's another video (in english) about the Pajares pass on the northern corridor.

http://video.adif.es/video/iLyROoafM_YP.html


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## hans280

Hum... I have a question. As the journalists like to say, the key to a good story is not "what" and not "who" and not even "how". The key to a good story is "why". Looking at the Spanish HS development (and development plans) I get beset with the question why. 

Until 5-6 years ago I thought I understood perfectly. The development strategy looked very much like the paths that had been followed in France and Japan. One line at a time, completed and tested before one would consider beginning on a new line, starting with Madrid-Sevilla, then Madrid-Zaragossa (and on to Barcelona, though this project was a bit of a laugh...); then Madrid-Vallidolid; then the prolongation to Malaga. And so on. But...

...all of a sudden it looks like our Spanish friends are working on 8-10 HS lines at the same time. If one studies a map of Spain it would further appear that the costal mountain ranges are, in almost all cases, the first to be attacked whereby hundreds of kilometers of connecting tracks pointing into the Castillian plains are left for later consideration. - And THIS in a country where the HS lines and the conventional tracks have different gauge widths? What's going on? I'm sure the Spanish government pursues some sort of long-term strategy but... what strategy? I'd be most obliged if anyone has inside information.


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## AAJ

The reason why Spain is constructing lines across the costal mountains first, is because the old layout is poor, so the new route allows good time savings. We can see it in Galicia, Asturias and the Basque Country. However, except in Galicia, these new routes will allow the use of freight trains, and "Variante de Pajares" (Asturias) will be mixed gauge. The maximum speed will be 250 km/h (in Galicia which will be 350 km/h between Orense and Santiago de Compostela).

However, in Castilla y Leon are building new HSL between Valladolid, Palencia, Burgos and Vitoria, between Leon and Palencia, and between Valladolid and Zamora (the latter belongs to the HSL Madrid-Santiago de Compostela). Soon begin to build the section between Zamora and Orense).

In 2020 it is expected that much of the Spanish rail network is standard gauge.


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## AAJ

Here you can download a map of the Spanish railway network with all the new lines that we are building.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ocwaghdzgm9


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## zaphod

Ah I see, so until high speed trains start running these new tracks can be used by conventional trains and freight, if they are standard gauge or have variable gauge wheel apparatus? Are they laying any mixed gauge sleepers on the high speed lines?

I love reading about this, Spain is going to have a national network faster than any other place


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## hans280

AAJ said:


> The reason why Spain is constructing lines across the costal mountains first, is because the old layout is poor, so the new route allows good time savings. We can see it in Galicia, Asturias and the Basque Country....
> 
> In 2020 it is expected that much of the Spanish rail network is standard gauge.


Thanks, AJJ. I didn't realise that so much of the new lines will be mixed passenger/freight. I hope this will not impede the HS passenger traffic too much as has happened on certain lines in other countries. 

One of my questions does, however, remain unanswered: Why is the government suddenly building bits and pieces of lines all across the country? In the past Spain has (consistent with other European countries) done one, long, line at a time. It might have continued doing so. In the past the government would probably have decided to finish Madrid-Valencia or Valloidolid-Basque Country in one big breath, and then move on to the next priority. Now, instead, there's work on 70 km here, 120 km there... all across the country. Why this change of strategy?


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## pccvspw999

I think the main reason for a change of strategy are european contributions which are getting available only for projects in underdeveloped regions, instead for an upgrading to european standards of national infrastructures. 

I don't know exactly how the european politics towards Spain has changed, but it has. Subsequently, the internal strategy may have changed, as a result of that change.


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## gincan

hans280 said:


> Thanks, AJJ. I didn't realise that so much of the new lines will be mixed passenger/freight. I hope this will not impede the HS passenger traffic too much as has happened on certain lines in other countries.
> 
> One of my questions does, however, remain unanswered: Why is the government suddenly building bits and pieces of lines all across the country? In the past Spain has (consistent with other European countries) done one, long, line at a time. It might have continued doing so. In the past the government would probably have decided to finish Madrid-Valencia or Valloidolid-Basque Country in one big breath, and then move on to the next priority. Now, instead, there's work on 70 km here, 120 km there... all across the country. Why this change of strategy?


Well Spain is a political confederation, regional politics weight a lot more in Spain than anywhere else in europe i guess. The central government has to please 17 regions and that mean balancing on a thin political thread. 

Say they would postpone the HSR connection to Granada for example, then the Andalucian government would interfere with the central government and all sorts of complications would arise.


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## hans280

pccvspw999 said:


> I think the main reason for a change of strategy are european contributions which are getting available only for projects in underdeveloped regions, instead for an upgrading to european standards of national infrastructures.


Ah, yes, of course. Thanks. I should have thought of this myself. :wallbash:

I'm hardly an expert in EU funding, but there are at least three alleys for support for infrastructure. Generally speaking it's (1) structural funds to the country; (2) help, as you say, to underdeveloped regions; and (3) TEN funds specifically to high-speed networks with a European dimension. After the admission of 10 East European countries in the EU, plus Cyprus and Malta, Spain no longer qualifies as a country that needs to catch up with the European average. The average has moved, so to speak. Therefore funds of type (1) have dried up; and funds of type (3) can be used only for projects such as Barcelona-Perpignan. The main remaining pot of cash is the regional contributions to help upgrade troubled areas. Hence all the activity in Asturias and Galicia...


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## hans280

gincan said:


> Well Spain is a political confederation, regional politics weight a lot more in Spain than anywhere else in europe i guess. The central government has to please 17 regions and that mean balancing on a thin political thread.


Yeah, but... Spain was also a confederation when Madrid-Sevilla was rolled out (against LOUD opposition, I may add). Same thing applies to Madrid-Barcelona. Something HAS change. (See also my previous response.)


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## AAJ

zaphod said:


> Ah I see, so until high speed trains start running these new tracks can be used by conventional trains and freight, if they are standard gauge or have variable gauge wheel apparatus? Are they laying any mixed gauge sleepers on the high speed lines?
> 
> I love reading about this, Spain is going to have a national network faster than any other place


No. Some tracks tracks will be use by freight trains and HS trains indefinitely, for example Variante de Pajares -new access to Asturias-. In this case, we are lying mixed gauge sleepers:









Example of mixed gauge.

This will be manteined until the Spanish network becomes to standard gauge (+2020).

In other cases, it will be one conventinal line used by freight trains parallel to an HSL.


gincan said:


> Well Spain is a political confederation, regional politics weight a lot more in Spain than anywhere else in europe i guess. The central government has to please 17 regions and that mean balancing on a thin political thread.
> 
> Say they would postpone the HSR connection to Granada for example, then the Andalucian government would interfere with the central government and all sorts of complications would arise.


Exactly!



hans280 said:


> Yeah, but... Spain was also a confederation when Madrid-Sevilla was rolled out (against LOUD opposition, I may add). Same thing applies to Madrid-Barcelona. Something HAS change. (See also my previous response.)


In the late 80s and early 90s, the regions had no such influence.


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## sotavento

hans280 said:


> Hum... I have a question. As the journalists like to say, the key to a good story is not "what" and not "who" and not even "how". The key to a good story is "why". Looking at the Spanish HS development (and development plans) I get beset with the question why.
> 
> Until 5-6 years ago I thought I understood perfectly. The development strategy looked very much like the paths that had been followed in France and Japan. One line at a time, completed and tested before one would consider beginning on a new line, starting with Madrid-Sevilla, then Madrid-Zaragossa (and on to Barcelona, though this project was a bit of a laugh...); then Madrid-Vallidolid; then the prolongation to Malaga. And so on. But...
> 
> ...all of a sudden it looks like our Spanish friends are working on 8-10 HS lines at the same time. If one studies a map of Spain it would further appear that the costal mountain ranges are, in almost all cases, the first to be attacked whereby hundreds of kilometers of connecting tracks pointing into the Castillian plains are left for later consideration. - And THIS in a country where the HS lines and the conventional tracks have different gauge widths? What's going on? I'm sure the Spanish government pursues some sort of long-term strategy but... what strategy? I'd be most obliged if anyone has inside information.


It's a simple error in apreciation .... you just missed the groundwork that was already there ... those 8-10 HS lines were under construction already ... you just didn't see them as the isolated works were not worthy of major press releases. :cheers:



zaphod said:


> Ah I see, so until high speed trains start running these new tracks can be used by conventional trains and freight, if they are standard gauge or have variable gauge wheel apparatus? Are they laying any mixed gauge sleepers on the high speed lines?
> 
> I love reading about this, Spain is going to have a national network faster than any other place





hans280 said:


> Thanks, AJJ. I didn't realise that so much of the new lines will be mixed passenger/freight. I hope this will not impede the HS passenger traffic too much as has happened on certain lines in other countries.
> 
> One of my questions does, however, remain unanswered: Why is the government suddenly building bits and pieces of lines all across the country? In the past Spain has (consistent with other European countries) done one, long, line at a time. It might have continued doing so. In the past the government would probably have decided to finish Madrid-Valencia or Valloidolid-Basque Country in one big breath, and then move on to the next priority. Now, instead, there's work on 70 km here, 120 km there... all across the country. Why this change of strategy?


The track upgrades on areas where "conventional" routes have speeds of up-to 160km/h were left for other stages of construction. 

So you end up with the LONG QUADRUPLICATIONS (a.k.a. the 4 main radial routes madrid-galicia/cantabria/north , madrid-barcelona , madrid-valencia , madrid-andaluxia) being "finished" first ... and at the same time with the enormous amount of time saved in these trunk routes you start to see the major-gap-savers (a.k.a. the mountanious sections) nearing completionm (but some of them took ages to built in the meantime) ... some sections of "easily upgradeable" trackage are left for the end stages due preciselly to their mixed-traffic nature ... they will wait for the gauge conversion process to start. :cheers:



pccvspw999 said:


> I think the main reason for a change of strategy are european contributions which are getting available only for projects in underdeveloped regions, instead for an upgrading to european standards of national infrastructures.
> 
> I don't know exactly how the european politics towards Spain has changed, but it has. Subsequently, the internal strategy may have changed, as a result of that change.


As far as I know there has been NO political change at all in terms of the shedule of project/construction/opening of any HSL route in spain. :dunno:


Things were actually projected to ocur in this _fashionable_ way from the start. :dunno:


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## gincan

The Spanish railway investments for the year 2010 have now been published and amount to 10,2 billion euros, of this 5,4 billion will be allocated to HSR investments. Here is a list for the biggest expenditure posts.

HSR Madrid - Mediterranean Coast 1470 million euros
HSR Madrid - French Border 1098 million euros
HSR Madrid - Galicia 895 million euros
HSR Madrid - Asturias 618 million euros
HSR Madrid - Portuguese Border 335 million euros
HSR Madrid - Granada 330 million euros
HSR Murcia - Almeria 229 million euros
HSR Coruña - Vigo 227 million euros
HSR Basque Y 218 million euros
HSR Seville - Cadiz 113 million euros
HSR Tarragona - Castellón 59 million euros
HSR Madrid - Jaén 46 million euros
HSR Seville - Huelva 24 millon euros
HSR Madrid - Basque country 22 million euros
HSR Mediterranean - Atlantic axis 21 million euros


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## Chilenofuturista

gincan said:


> The Spanish railway investments for the year 2010 have now been published and amount to 10,2 billion euros, of this 5,4 billion will be allocated to HSR investments. Here is a list for the biggest expenditure posts.
> 
> HSR Madrid - Mediterranean Coast 1470 million euros
> HSR Madrid - French Border 1098 million euros
> HSR Madrid - Galicia 895 million euros
> HSR Madrid - Asturias 618 million euros
> HSR Madrid - Portuguese Border 335 million euros
> HSR Madrid - Granada 330 million euros
> HSR Murcia - Almeria 229 million euros
> HSR Coruña - Vigo 227 million euros
> HSR Basque Y 218 million euros
> HSR Seville - Cadiz 113 million euros
> HSR Tarragona - Castellón 59 million euros
> HSR Madrid - Jaén 46 million euros
> HSR Seville - Huelva 24 millon euros
> HSR Madrid - Basque country 22 million euros
> HSR Mediterranean - Atlantic axis 21 million euros


Viva España. :master: :master: :master: :master: :master:


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## Patryk

kay: Super. Que bien!!


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## JMFA

AAJ said:


> these new routes will allow the use of freight trains, and "Variante de Pajares" (Asturias) will be *mixed gauge*. The maximum speed will be 250 km/h (...)
> In 2020 it is expected that much of the Spanish rail network is standard gauge.


Are you sure that "variante de pajares" is being built using doble gauge (.i.e UIC gauge AND iberian gauge)?.. i tried to find out about it, but in adif site they say that it is standard gauge.. (even ferropedia.es says that).

Can you confirm this? thanks.


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## Coccodrillo

I have also heard that it will have double gauge tracks. There is a lot of confusion about that.


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## gramercy

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/10/EUR10bn-rail-spend-for-2010.html


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## briatepro

Awesome work guys!!! simply amazing. Anyone have any tips to getting started with this sort of thing? stock photo sites, how you do things ect. I'd love to give this a shot next time so any info would be great


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## gincan

A recent presentation by the spanish government of a semi-new rail-link between Valencia and Santander. It's kinda interesting considering that the idea of this line is as old as the Spanish rail network and that they've already failed one attempt to construct it, although that was half a century ago. Let us see if they can manage to realise it this time around :|

Although they only speak spanish the graphics are easy to understand


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## K_

TedStriker said:


> LOL. I agree. Plus I think I got to into the analysis of it all anyway. Barcelona is not that far from Perpignan, so really, I would expect the main intermodal traffic to be using the new HS line to be shipping containers to-and-from the port itself, as oppose to domestic European traffic.


I don't think so. Containers landed in Barcelona will be for Spanish customers mostly. there is no reason for a customer in Germany to have a container from China land in Spain. These containers will continue to be delivered to Hamburg or one of the Delta ports.
The big market for intermodal traffic to/from Spain is for intra EU traffic. Lots of agricultural products now travel all the way from Spain to Germany (and other places) by truck. Getting that on the rails would be a good thing.


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## TedStriker

^^

Yeah, I suppose so. I'm just thinking there must be a reason for the Port of Barcelona being keen in the first place on having a standard gauge link, but I guess it may the port company wishing to be in a position to offer the market intermodal services, as oppose to anyone at the port actually knowing there will be a market for them. 

I had at first, as my previous posts show, been getting enthusiastic about intra-European trade, but then I thought that perhaps Barcelona is not far enough away from Perpignan to make much difference. In other words, quite a bit of Spanish trade from the Barcelona region is already going via swap bodies on trucks to Perpignan, where they are then put on trains. 

But then again, I guess a link into Barcelona will make intermodal much more 'sexy' in marketing terms. It can only be a matter of time before proposals come up to make the line to Valencia dual-gauge perhaps.


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## Andres_Low

Direct from the Spanish Forum thanks to Mr Sanlucar-Playa
This is Girona, a french TurboTrain crossed the border! is there to carry out ERMTS testing.



Sanlucar-Playa said:


> Algunas fotos de hoy:
> 
> En Llers, cerca de Figueras:
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> Y en Vilafant, pegando al mismo de Figueras:


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## Gadiri

Skylandman said:


> updated map of the spanish HST network in December 2006
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green lines : on service
> Yellow lines: U/C
> Red lines: planned


*AVE FAST TRAIN Tren de Alta Velocidad Malaga Madrid, TVSpain *








> The service of the high speed AVE train from Madrid to Malaga opens on 23rd December 2007 by the Spanish President Rodríguez Zapatero. There are 11 trains a day going in each direction. The travel takes only 2.5 hours each way with the maximum speed of 350 km per hour. Special thanks to Ministerio de Fomento http://www.fomento.es and Administrador de Infraestructuras Ferroviarias http://www.adif.es for help in creating this breathtaking video. Embed this video in high quality, see how the train line was build and watch the new train Station in Malaga (coming soon) and find out how to but tickets at http://www.tvspain.tv.


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## Andres_Low

^^
Dude what your posting is out of date, things have changed a little since 2006.


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## Gadiri

Andres_Low said:


> ^^
> Dude what your posting is out of date, things have changed a little since 2006.


Yes I know, but there was not video of Madrid-Malaga on this thread. So what new on this lane since 2007 ?


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## Andres_Low

Gadiri said:


> Yes I know, but there was not video of Madrid-Malaga on this thread. So what new on this lane since 2007 ?


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## 437.001

Hi from Spain (am I mistaken in thinking that there aren´t that many Spanish contributors to this thread?). 

This map above is a little out of date too. It does not entirely feature the HSL from Olmedo to Zamora and Orense, which is also under construction. Only the stretch between Orense and santiago is -it´s true though that it´s the most advanced.

By Christmas (maybe earlier?), the new HSL from Madrid to Cuenca, Requena/Utiel and Valencia, and a branch from Cuenca to Albacete will be open too.

By that time the mixed traffic HSL from Perpignan to Figueras is also expected to open, that would allow TGV trains to run into Spain (two Paris-Perpignan TGV would carry on to Figueras).

The strech between Girona and Mollet of the Barcelona-Figueras HSL, which will be used only by standard-gauge freight trains till the day the rest of the HSL is opens, is also expected to open by Christmas. 
Freight standard gauge trains would be able to reach Barcelona at last.

Other issues: Due to crisis the construction of several HSL is/will be delayed, others will be built "mañana". Aren´t crisis wonderful? :lol:


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## 437.001

Andres_Low said:


> ^^
> 
> Thanks 437.001 for the detailed info, as K mentioned above, do you think is technically feasible a service like a s130 from Murcia crossing the French border up to Paris, what is more, adding Talgo tren hotel cars?
> 
> would SNCF let spanish high speed trains running free on the other side of the border? I´d love to see that...


Hi there, and sorry for the delay in my answer, I had not entered this thread in months. Sorry again.

Technically feasible it is. But I´m not sure it is going to be worth it, because in several years the whole connection to France will be standardized in both gauge and electrical tension... Besides, the TGV-Dasye trains that are going to run these lines from Spain to France and Switzerland are going to be polytension (is that the right word?:nuts.

By the way, dunno if anyone else posted this info, but I´ve read somewhere -French or Spanish mag, I can´t remember very well-I´ve read an article about the train schedule between Spain, France and Switzerland. 

It was something thus:

-One TGV Madrid-Barcelona-Geneva per day. 
-One TGV Madrid-Barcelona-Paris per day.
-One TGV Madrid-Barcelona-Marseilles per day
-One TGV Barcelona-Toulouse-Bordeaux per day.
-One TGV Barcelona-Marseilles per day.
-One TGV Barcelona-Lyon per day.
-Two TGV at least Barcelona to Paris per day. 
-One Barcelona to Lille TGV per day, stopping at Disneyland Paris, and Roissy CDG Airport.

Well, that´s a starter (to open somewhere between 2012 and 2014). Sorry but I can´t recall the exact intermediate stops completely, but concerned are Zaragoza, Camp de Tarragona, Girona, Figueres, Perpignan, Narbonne, Beziers, Montpellier, Nimes, Avignon, Aix en Provence, Valence, Bellegarde. 

Two routes which look VERY promising are Barcelona-Toulouse-Bordeaux, and Barcelona-Lyon.

Pity there´s no direct link to Toulon and Nice, nor to Brussels, London and Zurich. I suppose it is just a matter of time.

As for Italy, I really don´t have a clue whether that will be possible in the near future... 
They´ll have to stick to their night Talgo Trainhotel Barcelona-Torino-Milan.
Maybe if there´s a TGV Barcelona to Nice then it could carry on to Savona and Genova... (???)
Time will tell.

And about Eastern France and Germany, there was rumours of something concerning Strasbourg, Luxembourg, Stuttgart and Frankfurt/Main, but I dont´t think these rumours were talking about next week, precisely...

Cheers!


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## Gadiri

I read in a french railway magazine that Renfe and SNCF will choose one of those 5 candidates for trains :
- Talgo
- Caf
- Siemens
- ETR 
- and TGV Duplex which is favorite because of increase capacity.

Is it your opinion from Spain ?

By the way, the LGV bypass around Nimes and Montpellier are U-C for this France-Spain project.


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## K_

437.001 said:


> By the way, dunno if anyone else posted this info, but I´ve read somewhere -French or Spanish mag, I can´t remember very well-I´ve read an article about the train schedule between Spain, France and Switzerland.


The wikipedia site on the line has a table. You can see it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Perpignan–Figueres



> Pity there´s no direct link to Toulon and Nice, nor to Brussels, London and Zurich. I suppose it is just a matter of time.


Well, continuing beyond France would multiply the number of safety systems that would need to be installed in these trains. So I think we'll have to wait til ETCS gets more widespread. In the mean time good connections to Brussel and London exist in Lille, and connections to anywhere in Switzerland exist in Geneva.


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## 437.001

Gadiri said:


> I read in a french railway magazine that Renfe and SNCF will choose one of those 5 candidates for trains :
> - Talgo
> - Caf
> - Siemens
> - ETR
> - and TGV Duplex which is favorite because of increase capacity.
> 
> Is it your opinion from Spain ?
> 
> By the way, the LGV bypass around Nimes and Montpellier are U-C for this France-Spain project.


I believe it´s going to be TGV-Dasye Duplex.


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## Andres_Low

437.001 said:


> It was something thus:
> 
> -One TGV Madrid-Barcelona-Geneva per day.
> -One TGV Madrid-Barcelona-Paris per day.
> -One TGV Madrid-Barcelona-Marseilles per day
> -One TGV Barcelona-Toulouse-Bordeaux per day.
> -One TGV Barcelona-Marseilles per day.
> -One TGV Barcelona-Lyon per day.
> -Two TGV at least Barcelona to Paris per day.
> -One Barcelona to Lille TGV per day, stopping at Disneyland Paris, and Roissy CDG Airport.
> 
> Well, that´s a starter (to open somewhere between 2012 and 2014). Sorry but I can´t recall the exact intermediate stops completely, but concerned are Zaragoza, Camp de Tarragona, Girona, Figueres, Perpignan, Narbonne, Beziers, Montpellier, Nimes, Avignon, Aix en Provence, Valence, Bellegarde.
> 
> Two routes which look VERY promising are Barcelona-Toulouse-Bordeaux, and Barcelona-Lyon.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers!


Once the strech pictured above opens, trains will have to stop in that provisional station and passengers switch from SNFC trains to Renfe trains to continue? until what you say come to reality only depends on the works being carried out in Barcelona city (Sagrera tunnel). My question is if is only the works being carried out in Barcelona city (Sagrera tunnel) the bottleneck for a direct connection between Spain and France/Switzerland


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## Baron Hirsch

437.001 said:


> And about Eastern France and Germany, there was rumours of something concerning Strasbourg, Luxembourg, Stuttgart and Frankfurt/Main, but I dont´t think these rumours were talking about next week, precisely...
> 
> Cheers!


This was probably to show what great possibilities there will be once the first section of LGV Rhin-Rhone will take up operations. But they had better first start a train Frankfurt-Marseille (at present there is no such train, anybody travelling from Germany to southern France has to change several times; DB has talked about the possibility of introducing such a train post 2011). 
A direct train Frankfurt-Barcelona is still hard to imagine.


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## gincan

Baron Hirsch said:


> This was probably to show what great possibilities there will be once the first section of LGV Rhin-Rhone will take up operations. But they had better first start a train Frankfurt-Marseille (at present there is no such train, anybody travelling from Germany to southern France has to change several times; DB has talked about the possibility of introducing such a train post 2011).
> A direct train Frankfurt-Barcelona is still hard to imagine.


It all depend on how competitive the airline industry is, should there be a hike in ticket prices for airtravel then people will shift to trains even if the traveltime is twice or even trice that of flying.


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## chornedsnorkack

gincan said:


> It all depend on how competitive the airline industry is, should there be a hike in ticket prices for airtravel then people will shift to trains even if the traveltime is twice or even trice that of flying.


It is not just the comparison of time. What is important is how to use the time.

Trains which travel for 5...6 hours are limited usefulness. If the train travels by day, it spends a lot of useful time and the passenger could save a couple of hours by flying. If the train travels by night, it is too short for good night's sleep.

Whereas 8+ hour train is better. It can travel through night and passengers get proper night's sleep - provided they have sleeping berths on train. If the passengers travelled faster by plane they would have to travel by day and spend a hotel night at origin or destination.

At present it seems all AVE and TGV trains are seat only. Are there any high-speed sleeper trains under construction? How long would it take to travel Madrid-Brussels? Madrid-London? Madrid-Berlin?


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## Baron Hirsch

chornedsnorkack said:


> At present it seems all AVE and TGV trains are seat only. Are there any high-speed sleeper trains under construction? How long would it take to travel Madrid-Brussels? Madrid-London? Madrid-Berlin?


I believe China is intends to run sleepers once its high-speed net comes into operation. In Europe, where the provincialism of companies like Eurostar and Thalys prevails, I believe the nobody has seriously thought of this yet. 
Personally, I find high-speed sleepers in Western Europe an interesting concept if they manage to offer competitive prices. Seeing Elipsos' rather wild prices even for conventional international night trains, I admit I am a bit sceptic. 
If we take the estimated travel times indicated on the English wikipedia site, after completion of the Barcelona link-up, trave times would be

Madrid-Brussels 11:14
Madrid-London 13:30
Madrid-Berlin 17:45

This is based on the time high-speed trains need nowadays on these routes, so not including possible future line improvements, such as Rhin-Rhone or in the German southwest. So Madrid-Brussels and Madrid-London seem a definite possibility for a civilized night train; Berlin seems somewhat beyond their usual time scope. However Cologne or Frankfurt, also important railway hubs, seem a possibility.


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## chornedsnorkack

Baron Hirsch said:


> I believe China is intends to run sleepers once its high-speed net comes into operation.


They already do. Sleeper trains run at 200 km/h on old railways, covering Beijing-Shanghai in 10:04, and Beijing-Hangzhou in about 11:30.

Since Madrid-Paris looks to be over 9 hours, it would also be convenient for overnight trip. What are the plans for trains?


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## 437.001

Hi, 



Andres_Low said:


> Once the strech pictured above opens, trains will have to stop in that provisional station and passengers switch from SNFC trains to Renfe trains to continue? until what you say come to reality only depends on the works being carried out in Barcelona city (Sagrera tunnel). My question is if is only the works being carried out in Barcelona city (Sagrera tunnel) the bottleneck for a direct connection between Spain and France/Switzerland


Once the stretch from Perpignan to Figueres opens, two Sncf TGV Paris-Perpignan will carry on to Figueres. There Renfe will provide a direct correspondence to Barcelona.

The main problem in the construction of this line are the two urban HSR-only tunnels underneath Barcelona and Girona, whose construction suffers a severe delay due to its extreme complication and some good deal of NYMBY-ism. 
It is true though that the HSR tunnel underneath Barcelona goes right under the Sagrada Familia Church, Gaudi´s masterpiece, and Barcelonians have their eyebrows raised because of that.

And yes, the two bottlenecks for this HSL are the two tunnels, the rest of the line is at advanced stages of construction or already finished.


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## Coccodrillo

Freight trains will use the tunnel in Girona, or will have a surface route outside the city? The existing railway viaduct and station will be replaced by the tunnel (that would be double gauge) or will be maintained?

Thanks in advance


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## Suburbanist

I doubt high-speed sleepers will be viable in Europe. Non-HS sleepers, despite having the same alleged advantages of "travelling overnight", have been cut steadily over the last decade. Sure, someone will point one or two successful services or cite a case of a relative who use those trains, but the European offer for such trains is diminishing fast.

The price of comfortable cabins (not couchettes where you share space with strangers, something that will not get a grip with high-income costumers) is way too high anyway. The lure of € 80 MAD-FRA flights will preclude any viable train service in the route.

If people don't travel anymore in significant number in night trains on shorter routes, why would them travel in longer distance routes? The marginal time advantage of plane is even higher for those long-distance (train) routes compared to short-haul flights, as the proportion of fixes time used in security and check-in at airports is essentially the same.

So I highly doubt night-trains, cost-inefficient as they are (if they were to compete with hotels in comfort with single en-suites with private bathrooms albeit small), will have a comeback in Europe.

It needs to be taken into account that many HS links are shut down for traffic at night too, though this is not a major issue.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> The price of comfortable cabins (not couchettes where you share space with strangers, something that will not get a grip with high-income costumers) is way too high anyway. The lure of € 80 MAD-FRA flights will preclude any viable train service in the route.


There are people who travel across europe in overnight buses. Sure these people could be tempted to do the trip in a couchette. However, on most existing night trains it's the double cabins that sell out first. So it appears that there is still a demand for it, there is still a market. After all, the only thing that brings you to Zürich in time for a 9AM meeting is the night train...
And wait till oil hits 200$ a barrel or more, and see how many 80€ FRA-MAD flights you'll see offered. 



> If people don't travel anymore in significant number in night trains on shorter routes, why would them travel in longer distance routes? The marginal time advantage of plane is even higher for those long-distance (train) routes compared to short-haul flights, as the proportion of fixes time used in security and check-in at airports is essentially the same.


The trains that recently were cut were all quite popular. They were cut for one of two reasons:
- The operating railways want to force their customers on high speed trains. (France and Belgium are a good example)
- The operating companies are incompetent. (Italy)

A competent railway like DB aparently stil an make money on night trains. They even expanded quite heavily in to the Netherlands recently, one of the few countries that is quite open to foreign operators. 



> So I highly doubt night-trains, cost-inefficient as they are (if they were to compete with hotels in comfort with single en-suites with private bathrooms albeit small), will have a comeback in Europe.


I think that on the routes to/from the Spanish coast there would be a very nice market. Maybe not for a daily train. But consider that a lot of pensioners from northern parts of Europe spend the winter there. A train allows you to take with you a lot more luggage than a plane, which is a major advantage when you're going to Spain for three months. Make it a motorrail service and it will even be more popular. Pensioners have time, so getting there as fast as possible is not a big issue. 
So a train from points in northwestern Europe, that goes directly to Barcelona and then follows the coast south, ending in Alicante might have market.


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## gincan

Coccodrillo said:


> Freight trains will use the tunnel in Girona, or will have a surface route outside the city? The existing railway viaduct and station will be replaced by the tunnel (that would be double gauge) or will be maintained?
> 
> Thanks in advance


The viaduct was supposed to be replaced by a tunnel, now it has been put on hold. So for some years the city will have both the HSR tunnel and the viaduct with their corresponding trainstations. Until the HSR tunnel is finished, freight trains will use the viaduct. There are no plans to construct a by-pass around Girona.


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## Gadiri

I hope that this time, my post is not out of date :nuts:


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## Andres_Low

Suburbanist said:


> The price of comfortable cabins (not couchettes where you share space with strangers, something that will not get a grip with high-income costumers) is way too high anyway. The lure of € 80 MAD-FRA flights will preclude any viable train service in the route.



I believe new formulas will be invented since the HSR mania started in western Europe. Like high capacity trains are being designed to offer low cost seats also could offer low cost cabins. Who knows, in rail bussines boosting the offer increase the demand.


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## Suburbanist

Andres_Low said:


> Who knows, in rail bussines boosting the offer increase the demand.


That might be the case with regional or metropolitan services. As for long-distance travel (like Madrid-Frankfurt), I don't think that boosting offer would attract a crowd right away (almost nobody drives in this route, almost everyone takes a 70min flight).

Still, I think that - as you said - new business models might emerge emulating what happens with air traffic, particularly if true competition on HSR ensures.

For instance, they could try 2+3 seat arrangement with a smaller pitch (distance to the seat in front of you) in some cars and sell them as a sort of 3rd class.

Then you could have 1000 pax train sets.

In France they have the iTGV, which seems to be doing fairly well. They sell tickets only through the Internet, which are usually non-refundable and non-exchangeable.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> That might be the case with regional or metropolitan services. As for long-distance travel (like Madrid-Frankfurt), I don't think that boosting offer would attract a crowd right away (almost nobody drives in this route, almost everyone takes a 70min flight).


Don't say that to fast. I wouldn't be surprised if more people actually did drive that rather then fly. There are even thousands who travel from Germany to Spain every summer in buses.
The car is still the most common mode of going on holiday in Europe. That's the competition. 



> For instance, they could try 2+3 seat arrangement with a smaller pitch (distance to the seat in front of you) in some cars and sell them as a sort of 3rd class.
> 
> Then you could have 1000 pax train sets.


1000 pax trainsets already exist. And you don't need 2+3 seat arrangements for them....


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## jovibo

Yesterday, the new AVE trains (Renfe AVE new series S112) for the corridor Madrid-Valencia were presented to the press (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/06/29/valencia/1277794888.html and http://www.lasprovincias.es/2010062...nitat/nuevo-madrid-valencia-201006291125.html). They will begin commercial runs at the end of the year.
Regards.


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## Andres_Low

^^

I just came across this article in english, video is in spanish though.

how did Talgo manage to get over 50 seats more? They got rid of "clase preferente"? 

http://en.lacerca.com/news/castilla_la_mancha/112_high_speed_madrid-64643-1.html


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## Coccodrillo

There are only the Club and Turista classes (1st and 3rd).


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## Andres_Low

Hope there´s room enough for luggage such as beach balls and umbrellas in summer season :lol:


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## Suburbanist

^^They should limit luggage for train passenger like Eurostar does. 2 pieces per paying adult + what you can hold in your lap.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ I take the train instead of airplanes exactly because railways are less paranoic.


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## Andres_Low

Suburbanist said:


> ^^They should limit luggage for train passenger like Eurostar does. 2 pieces per paying adult + what you can hold in your lap.


Why? you don´t wanna pay for every extra kilo like if it was a cheap airline... do you? Long distance is limited already but it is pretty flexible.


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## Suburbanist

Andres_Low said:


> Why? you don´t wanna pay for every extra kilo like if it was a cheap airline... do you? Long distance is limited already but it is pretty flexible.


I proposed a reasonable piece limit, just to avoid the kind of abuse I've seen once: a student carrying two bags, one guitar, a surfboard and something else abroad a high-speed train and literally forcing whomever was sited at her side/in front of her to give up their reserved seats and find other seats because the girl could barely handle all her stuff.

Just that. I'm not suggesting weighting bags, just curbing the number of them and forbidding oversize things.


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## gincan

To get this thread on track, here are some timelapses from the construction of the HSR line through Barcelona, this is a rather massive construction site with several construction projects under way simultaneously.

The first and second one are from february 2009

3228507

3253144

The third one is from april and may 2009

5117774

The fourth one is from july 2009

6073170

This one is a compilation from the whole 2009.

8723410

An the final one is from april and may 2010

12072967

More of the same can be found at the official website for this construction project, just go to multimedia and use the magnifier.

http://www.barcelonasagrera.com/default.asp


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## zaphod

I've always wondered if it was possible to built a high speed train capable of hauling containerized freight. I suppose it wouldn't be economical otherwise it would be done already. 

But for some specialty cargo like time-sensitive packages or fresh produce could it work? I'm sure there's some wealthy European country looking to increase its "green" cred and subsidize such a thing even if it runs at a huge loss.


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## Coccodrillo

It is nearly impossible to alternate high speed (300 km/h) and freight (100 km/h) on the same line at the same moment, but on a few HS lines in Italy and Germany freight trains run at night. But this require an expensive ifnrastructure: HSL need to be straight, but can have steep gradients (up to 4%), instead freight lines may be curvy, but must be as flat as possible (if possible no more than 1,2%). A mixed line has to be both straight and with low gradients. Running light freight trains at 300 km/h would be possible but very expensive.


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## chornedsnorkack

Coccodrillo said:


> It is nearly impossible to alternate high speed (300 km/h) and freight (100 km/h) on the same line at the same moment, but on a few HS lines in Italy and Germany freight trains run at night. But this require an expensive ifnrastructure: HSL need to be straight, but can have steep gradients (up to 4%), instead freight lines may be curvy, but must be as flat as possible (if possible no more than 1,2%). A mixed line has to be both straight and with low gradients. Running light freight trains at 300 km/h would be possible but very expensive.


France has TGV Le Poste. Obviously more expensive than slow freight trains (low axle loads and high power), but probably cheaper than air mail.

How is loading and unloading in intermediate stops handled? And can fresh produce be mailed by TGV?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Only express mail can afford the cost of high speed trains.

Freight like perishable products (fruit, food) can travel on traditional railways. There are already services like Murcia (Spain)-London.


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> I really don't understand why you found a waste an expense of, say, 100 millions in subsidies for well used trains, but you think that 10 billions spent in infrastructures are worth.
> 
> Sure, Spanish HSL have dramatically reduced travel times, but the existing network (Madrid-Barcelona/Andalusia/Valladolid) carries about 12 millions passengers a year, that is half of the Paris-Lyon HSL alone. From your point of view, all Spanish HSLs and most motorways (I know one, 100 km long, with only 2.000 vehicles per day) should be a waste of taxpayer's money.


Spain is going to open its tracks to private competitors. I said again and again that I don't opposte gov't building transport infrastructure (it's one of its functions) as far as this infrastructure is to be used only or almost only by private operators (e.g., the buses, trains, boats, ferries, airplanes running over it).

So, for me, there is an immense, a HUGE difference between investing in new infra-strucuture or paying operational expesnses of a system who can't be operated, on a daily basis, by private markets.

That is what I love so much about Renfe and, particularly, Trenitalia: this two-tiered vision of infrastructure as independent from vehicle operations, fares, schedules, passes etc. In Spain (and Italy for that matter), you rarely see people bragging about how much fares will cost or how connections with existing services will be. They always focus on beggining-to-end time reductions and travel times, speed and efficiency of the infrastructure.

In any case, rail would have better been spent on highways, but that is another, higher-order discussion (highways offer more than transportation: a support of an affluent, individualistic and self-centered lifestyle).

So let's hope Spain keeps new HSL coming once the crisis is over.


----------



## Coccodrillo

cuartango said:


> Spain has no train culture comparing with other european countries, because of the old railway system we are used to. We need at least 10 years to adjust to the new HSLines (also to finish most parts of them, like Madrid-Valencia this year and Madrid-North Spain in five years).
> 
> Despite the most powerful connection (Madrid-Barcelona) is still very new, it is a big success and it will be more.


Spanish HSLs are a good project (at least msot of them), what I wanted to say is that they are really expensive for the traffic they have, at least now. Maybe decreasing ticket fares to attract more apssenegrs would be a good idea.

Another thing that Spain (and Portugal) should do as soon as possible is the conversion of the main network to standard gauge.


----------



## pietje01

Suburbanist said:


> Coordinated scehdules assumes that everybody using the public transit systems needs to use it so it accommodates every user's needs.


Please don't invent things that aren't correct.

Coordinated schedules just want to optimise the travel time by not wasting time at stations waiting for another train.


----------



## ♪♫ ♪ ♫ CiNnAmOn ♪♫ ♫

Coccodrillo said:


> Another thing that Spain (and Portugal) should do as soon as possible is the conversion of the main network to standard gauge.


I would have preferred a TGV connection between Madrid and Barcelona, Barcelona and Valencia, Madrid and Bilbao, Madrid and Lisboa, and then from Barcelona and Bilbao towards France. And that's it, there is no need for more high speed railway, it's too expensive for the demand there can be in all the other corridors. And instead of building such an expensive railway, it'd have been better to spend that money in converting all the network to standard gauge. But now it's too late, and I don't think it's worth anymore to convert all the network, what for? there will be standard-gauge railways going to every province in the country and it obviously won't be exclusively used by passanger trains, as there is not enough demand for that, and there is no problem to have a separate network for suburban trains, after all they don't need to reach the rest of Europe and their infrastructure is way too saturated to let international trains in.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Spanish HSL are nearly all dedicated to passenger traffic, none of the new radial lines are designed for freight traffic, except the Barcelona-France part and maybe the Madrid-Lisbon line. The few surviving freight trains will continue to run on the existing lines, thats why they should be converted to standard gauge.


----------



## thun

Basically, some standard gauge rails in the North (Euskera and Catalunya) would be enough to cover most of Spains industrial capacity producing most of its export. That could be done by three-rail lines (how the heck do you translate "Dreischienengleis" in English?), too. The rest of the network (and the roads, too) is way less important in terms of international cargo volume.


----------



## Coccodrillo

I would translate "Dreischienengleis" with "dual gauge tack".

As high speed lines are completely segregated from traditional network, and as most cercanias services are either quite segregated (Madrid) or with low number of trains (the other lines, except Barcelona), I don't see problems converting all other lines to stantard gauge. As they have a very low number of trains, disruption to traffic would be limited.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Coordinated scehdules assumes that everybody using the public transit systems needs to use it so it accommodates every user's needs.


Coordinated schedules follow from the assumption that to make money you have to provide value. A coordinated schedule has more value to your customers than an uncoordinated one. It's basic "business 101" that you need to start by providing enough value if you want to turn a profit.



> However, in France, Spain and Italy they just set up a system that will incentive some people to do their journeys by car.


I a brewer would brew a beer that would "incentive some drinkers to switch to other brands" this would not be considered a feature by the management. They would consider it a problem. That applies to every provider of a service or good. Nobody likes to turn away customers.
In France the railways are progressively going to a coordinated schedule. RFF is basically forcing this, as it allows a lot of savings to be made in infrastructure. The end result is lower costs and higher value. Again, business 101...


----------



## Coccodrillo

K_ said:


> Nobody likes to turn away customers.


Except Trenitalia and Thalys, as far I know.


----------



## thun

Suburbanist said:


> Coordinated scehdules assumes that everybody using the public transit systems needs to use it so it accommodates every user's needs.


You might want to do some studying of what economists call network effects.
In short, the utility of a product depends heavily on complementary products. The utility of a train (average for the whole customer base) connection therefore rises exponentially with coordinated schedules because it cuts travel time in case you have to change trains. If you don't have to, you still can rely on regular services which rises utility as well.


----------



## Gadiri

Hopobcn said:


> Two pictures from urbanity.es made by "Matraco"
> http://www.urbanity.es/foro/infraestructuras/8423-ferrocarril-de-alta-velocidad-en-espana-ii-160.html





Andres_Low said:


>


I don't understand Algéciras difference between those 2 maps.

Is Algéciras be integrated to HST ? If yes, when ?

What meand "otras lineas integrado del plan estrategico" ? Does it means that a standar spacing line will be constructed.

Is there a costal line between Algéciras and Cadix and Algéciras and Malaga that could be taken by HST before building a HSL ?


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ There are strong network effects in transport, but I oppose the gov't centralizing the schedule planning as a mean to promote it.

I look for airlines: they obviously benefit from network effects, reason by which they enter alliances, code-shares and so. Yet, it is something done PRIVATELY (or at least it has been so since the late 80's/early 90's), by companies, under watch of anti-cartel authorities and so.

The liberalization of air transport, indeed, provided a good example of how deregulation of schedules and fares is beneficial to most users: fares are lower in real term then they were 30 years ago, and companies keep cutting frills in name of low prices so more people can fly.

I have nothing against competing rail companies setting up schemes to allow connections between two rival trains. My fierce opposition is to have someone from GOVERNMENT to sit down and decide by her/himself that a train must leave Berlin to Hamburg every hour and stop at a/b/c and not c/d/e.

THIS is the "statism" I'm against. Let the market operate alone. Let the gov't build tracks and stations, and then auction paths and then let's see what happens.


----------



## Coccodrillo

> I don't understand Algéciras difference between those 2 maps.


The first show new high speed lines and upgraded old lines, however the dates are completely wrong.



> Is Algéciras be integrated to HST ? If yes, when ?


I'm not aware of any project (maybe a Spanish know more).



> What meand "otras lineas integrado del plan estrategico" ? Does it means that a standar spacing line will be constructed.


All these lines already exist, but it is planned they will be upgraded in some way (electrified, double tracked, ...).



> Is there a costal line between Algéciras and Cadix and Algéciras and Malaga that could be taken by HST before building a HSL ?


There were a single track railway between Murcia (exactly from Almendricos) and a point (Guadix) between Granada and the coast (Almería). This railway is now closed, but tracks are still present here and there, the trackbed is also probably still in place (but not everywhere).


----------



## thun

I guess if Algeciras is getting mentioned here and there it has to do with the proposed railway tunnel to Morocco.


----------



## Coccodrillo

How much freight does Morocco export to Europe? As there are no interconnected railways south of Morocco-Algeria-Tunisia a tunnel cannot attract traffic from there (if there is any relevant).


----------



## sirhumphrey

I don't believe they'll ever build that tunnel. Firstly, they do not have the money, and secondly they do not have the political will. 
The Spanish goverment won't probably finish the Madrid -Norther Spain line earlier than 2014 because all the infrustructure project are being halted to curb the deficit.


----------



## Gadiri

thun said:


> I guess if Algeciras is getting mentioned here and there *it has to do with the proposed railway tunnel to Morocco*.


You're right. 



Coccodrillo said:


> How much freight does Morocco export to Europe? As there are no interconnected railways south of Morocco-Algeria-Tunisia a tunnel cannot attract traffic from there (if there is any relevant).






sirhumphrey said:


> I don't believe they'll ever build that tunnel. Firstly, they do not have the money, and secondly they do not have the political will.
> The Spanish goverment won't probably finish the Madrid -Norther Spain line earlier than 2014 because all the infrustructure project are being halted to curb the deficit.


Word Bank, UE, Arab Found and of course Spain and Morocco will pay for that.



Coccodrillo said:


> The first show new high speed lines and upgraded old lines, however the dates are completely wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not aware of any project (maybe a Spanish know more).
> 
> 
> 
> All these lines already exist, but it is planned they will be upgraded in some way (electrified, double tracked, ...).
> 
> 
> 
> There were a single track railway between Murcia (exactly from Almendricos) and a point (Guadix) between Granada and the coast (Almería). This railway is now closed, but tracks are still present here and there, the trackbed is also probably still in place (but not everywhere).


According to this map and figures, we can see the HST projetc around Algéciras and the good trafics projected (8 millions tons not very much)























*I opened a new thread to discuss of that *MOROCCO - SPAIN | Gibraltar Tunnel | Project


----------



## 437.001

^^

That must be the plan for the year 3000...
There is no serious plan at all to build such tunnel.


----------



## windawinda77

no money either..it is not a priority for spain at the moment...and i doubt it will be in the coming years.....


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I also think that for geopolitical reasons is good not to have such tunnel so fast. It could foster aspirations of more economic and political integration of Morocco in EU, something I prefer to let in the back burner.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Something that affects (negativelly) the French network a lot is the fact there are 4 different departure stations of HST services in Paris, making connections way harder without the use of cramped Métro or RER. This makes, for instance, less attractive connections between Eurostar and any other HST service. 

I guess Spainish network will be way better in that aspect.


----------



## cuartango

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Something that affects (negativelly) the French network a lot is the fact there are 4 different departure stations of HST services in Paris, making connections way harder without the use of cramped Métro or RER. This makes, for instance, less attractive connections between Eurostar and any other HST service.
> 
> I guess Spainish network will be way better in that aspect.


Madrid has and will have only 2 departure stations: North (Chamartín) and South (Atocha).

Some people say that it should have more stations, but I think is better with two, and one of the reasons is what you have said: it is easier and faster to move between both stations, now you can do it by Metro or by Train in a pretty fast way. Also, the more number of stations, the more costs you have.


----------



## arriaca

Andres_Low said:


> Which platforms will lead into the new tunnel between Atocha and Chamartin? and what does that art piece means? seems a big baby head :?


The new tunnel will finish at a new subterranean station under Atocha. This station will have four plataforms. 



frozen said:


> Well, Bilbao and A Coruña are not amongst the biggest cities in Spain, but their Metro Area are.
> 
> * Cities linked with Madrid by high speed trains*
> *
> Under construction*
> 
> Spain's largest cities
> 
> Rank	City	Population
> 
> Main cities
> Pos.	City	Region	Prov.	population
> *1	Madrid	3,213,271
> 2	Barcelona	1,615,908
> 3	Valencia	810,064
> 4	Seville	703.206
> 5	Zaragoza	699.240
> 6	Málaga	566,447*
> _*7	Murcia	430,571 *_ (under construction and project)
> 8	Palma de Mallorca 401,570 (Island)
> 9	Las Palmas de G.C.	381,723 (Island) (project)
> 10	Bilbao 353,34 (under construction and project)
> *11	Valladolid	317,000*
> *12	Córdoba	307,000*
> 13	Vigo	287,000 (under construction and project)
> _*14	Alicante	272,000 *_
> 15	Gijón	264,000 (under construction and project)
> *16	Hospitalet de Llobregat	255,000 (Barcelona Metropolitan Area)*
> 17	Granada	242,000 (under construction, only few km project)
> 18	La Coruña	241,000 (under construction and project))
> 19	Vitoria-Gasteiz	215,000 (under construction and project)
> *20	Badalona	210,000 (Barcelona Metro Area)*
> 21	Santa Cruzde (Tenerife)	203,000 (Island)
> 22	Oviedo	199,000 (under construction and project)
> *23	Móstoles	196,000 (Madrid Metro Area)*
> *24	Elche	191,000 (Alicante Metro Area)*
> *25	Sabadell	186,000 (Barcelona Metro Area)*
> 26	Santander	183,000 (project)
> *27	Jérez de la Frontera	182,000*
> 28	San Sebastián	177,000 (under construction and project)
> *29	Leganés	175,000 (Madrid Metro Area)*
> *30	Almería	170,000* (under construction and project)
> _*31	Cartagena	170,000 *_
> *32	Tarrasa	164,000 (Barcelona Metro Area)*
> *33	Alcaláde Henares	163,000 (Madrid Metro Area)*
> *34	Fuenlabrada	163,000 (Madrid Metro Area)*
> 35	Pamplona	163,000 (project)
> 36	Burgos	162,000 (under construction)
> 37	Salamanca	158,000 (project)
> *38	Albacete	146,000*
> 39	León	144,000 (under construction)
> *40	Getafe	143,000 (Madrid metro area)
> 41	Alcorcón	141,000 (Madrid Metro Area)*
> *42	Cádiz	141,000*
> 43	Huelva	140,000 (under construction and ¿project?)
> 44	Castellón de la Plana	136,000
> 45	Badajoz	124,000
> 46	Logroño	124,000 (¿under construction? and project)
> *47	Santa Coloma de Gramanet	123,000 (Barcelona Metro Area)*
> 48	La Laguna	122,000 (Island, Santa Cruz de Tenerife metro area)
> *49	Lleida	111,000*
> *50	Tarragona	111,000*


For better information visit this http://www.pacopaco.es/


----------



## OriK

cuartango said:


> Madrid has and will have only 2 departure stations: North (Chamartín) and South (Atocha).
> 
> Some people say that it should have more stations, but I think is better with two, and one of the reasons is what you have said: it is easier and faster to move between both stations, now you can do it by Metro or by Train in a pretty fast way. Also, the more number of statiots, the more costs you have.


Further, a new HS tunnel is being built between them so the trains will be able to stop in both stations.


----------



## Andres_Low

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Something that affects (negativelly) the French network a lot is the fact there are 4 different departure stations of HST services in Paris, making connections way harder without the use of cramped Métro or RER. This makes, for instance, less attractive connections between Eurostar and any other HST service.
> 
> I guess Spainish network will be way better in that aspect.


Yeah that is more direct destinations will attract more competitors running trains, I personally can´t wait to see that.


----------



## el palmesano

Motorways said:


> may you dare to explain how is building train stations and returning illegal aliens to their homeland xenophobic and racist?


emmm. aliens??

and you don't need talk about illegal inmigrants just because there is one guy saying wrong and funny things...

lot of spanish people was illegal in the past century in a lot of countries, so you must respect illegal inmigrants


----------



## Motorways

el palmesano said:


> emmm. aliens??
> 
> and you don't need talk about illegal inmigrants just because there is one guy saying wrong and funny things...
> 
> lot of spanish people was illegal in the past century in a lot of countries, so you must respect illegal inmigrants


That´s just the proper legal term in english for a foreigner living in any country without citizenship or legaly.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_(law)

i guess you own me now an apology for calling me what you just did, don´t you?

On the other hand, the "illegal aliens" on the pic i posted are nothing but the privates from the Moroccan Royal Army who were removed by the spanish army from Perejil Island. So as you can see, i was just kidding him too about that situation and not about the illegal inmigrants in general.


----------



## solchante

an infography (in spanish) of the Madrid-Valencia HSR line


----------



## cuartango

^^ Se han flipado un poco en el dato de longitud estimada de la línea, no? :nuts:


----------



## Mare_nostrvm

Esa longitud es la longitud total de la línea Madrid-Levante de la cuál forma parte el tramo Madrid-Valencia.

That length is the total length of the Madrid-Levante line which the stretch Madrid-Valencia belong to.


----------



## gramercy

will trains run at 350 or is that just a projection?


----------



## el palmesano

Motorways said:


> That´s just the proper legal term in english for a foreigner living in any country without citizenship or legaly.
> 
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_(law)
> 
> i guess you own me now an apology for calling me what you just did, don´t you?
> 
> On the other hand, the "illegal aliens" on the pic i posted are nothing but the privates from the Moroccan Royal Army who were removed by the spanish army from Perejil Island. So as you can see, i was just kidding him too about that situation and not about the illegal inmigrants in general.


ok, I apologize, I was wrong and didn't your words correctly :/

but, I belong without understand why you wrote about perejil...


----------



## vallacopito-tranolid

gramercy said:


> will trains run at 350 or is that just a projection?


Yes, the trains *will be able* to run at 350 kph since Sunday, althought I think the timetables are made with a maximum speed of 300kph... but if the train is late, they have 50kph more to save time. Some studies says that the energy consumption increased by an exponential function, so it's not worth at all travel at 350 kph... If that's true I hope engineers will find a solution for that as soon as possible.


----------



## Suburbanist

vallacopito-tranolid said:


> Some studies says that the energy consumption increased by an exponential function, so it's not worth at all travel at 350 kph... If that's true I hope engineers will find a solution for that as soon as possible.


Energy consumption is dictated by the power needed to overcome two main forces: track attrition and air resistance. There is nothing much to do in regard of moving the trains on tracks, however about 120-150km/h almost all increase in energy use is due to increased air resistance.

It's just physics of fluid displacements, and I think it is quite hard to "find a solution" for that  We should just accept very-high-speed-trains are not energy efficient, and charge more for their fares if we want that extra speed.


----------



## Xoser_barcelona

Meanwhile, the stretch of the LAV Levante between Madrid and Albacete has been inaugurated by the Crown prince and princess. Tomorrow the stretch to Valencia will follow. More information 

a10


----------



## Mare_nostrvm

*More about the new high speed rail line Madrid-Valencia*




































































































SOURCE:
El Mundo newspaper..


----------



## endrity

I was expecting a lot more info on this thread after the opening of such an important new line. Hopefully there will be more in the days to come.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ The use of the term "alien" as a reference of living extraterrestrial being is derived exactly for the notion of foreigner.


----------



## [email protected]

The Spanish HSR network is definitely one of the most impressive ones in the world right now, but what I don't get are the low frequencies. I mean you spend billions on new lines and then you only run 15 daily trains each way (Madrid-Valencia) on them. That makes no sense. Isn't there at least a demand for a train every 20-30 minutes throughout the day?


----------



## G5man

[email protected] said:


> The Spanish HSR network is definitely one of the most impressive ones in the world right now, but what I don't get are the low frequencies. I mean you spend billions on new lines and then you only run 15 daily trains each way (Madrid-Valencia) on them. That makes no sense. Isn't there at least a demand for a train every 20-30 minutes throughout the day?


The Spanish model I am guessing goes for a maximum profit by charging higher ticket prices and taking lower ridership. The French by contrast use a low fares, high ridership, and still make a profit.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ We need to wait a couple years. New train services take time to catch up.


----------



## endrity

It's kind of hard to debate this without having better stats on profits, but on the face of it the French model looks a lot better doesn't it? Smaller cost means that there is added incentive for people to travel on trains and therefore truly reduce the carbon emissions from other means of transport. Also, since AVE's goal is to try to unify more a country that is really divided among cultural lines, wouldn't you want to promote more travel through lower cost. Also, if the elasticity of demand is high enough than the chances are that you make a better profit.


----------



## Sr.Horn

*Figueras - Perpignan HSL opening I*

Pics by me. December 19, 2010.

Early morning I take the "Media Distancia" train from Barcelona El Clot-Aragó (7.55) destination Figueras (9.39). The same train model called "Alvia", but, more expensive, guarantees international connections at the same HSR Station of Figueras Vilafant. The train that I take stops at Figueres "conventional" station, 30 minutes walking from the new.










The S449 "Media Distancia" train is a regional service new train with some goodies like Vending Machine, low floor for disabled people, 220V connection, table and monitor information onboard. Space on seat was good.




























But the monitor information was off :lol: hno: Typical spanish!









The colored windows do not permit taking good pictures of the landscape.









The train was empty. I brought something to read, with the Japan Rail Fan Magazine recall my trips to Japan, the railroad paradise.









And the "Yearslightment" power, the SOS-Dan leader and green tea :lol:









Arriving at Llinars del Vallès, works on the conventional line (?) forces a stupid stop for a few minutes. No train forward, nothing happens. Close to the station, the HSL bridge.


















Here Maçanet-Massanes. Northbound for "Cercanías" R1 and R2 lines. HSL is over there but never have any connection.










From Girona to Figueras, conventional track was to bad, the semaphoric system was down and the train runs slowly. Here over the Onyar River.


















Red light on semaphores.









Arriving at Figueras, here is the branch to conect the conventional line with the new HSR Figueras-Vilafant Station.


















Ten minutes later than planned, our train arrives at the Figueres Station. Continue to Portbou.


----------



## Sr.Horn

*Figueras - Perpignan HSL opening II*

Figueras-Vilafant HSR Station was on the oposite of Figueras Station. You need 30 minutes walking or go by bus or taxi. We prefer walking.



























TV3, Catalonia Television preparing LIVE coverage.









Inside the station building.


















On ticket's sale place. Don't have Renfe timetables, but SNCF put a lot of information :bash:



















Station's "bar" :cheers:









Waiting area.









We went with the SNCF ticket printed at home. In the checkpoint had not Renfe-Adif staff, Security Guard only looked at the ticket you and made you go through the baggage scanner. Seeing the SNCF ticket were left puzzled face, I told you it was a ticket "of the French railways" and said, "ah, is that I had not ever seen, and is in another language" (not spanish) :lol::lol::lol:

Passing the checkpoint area. A long corridor connects with stairs and lift to the single platform.



























Information panels are only in Spanish, Catalan and English. It's stupid not to find information in French.


----------



## Sr.Horn

*Figueras - Perpignan HSL opening III*

And now, the platform. Here is a 8 cars TGV Duplex bound for Paris Gare de Lyon.









Let's see what is inside. Is it like a E4 MAX?









Unfortunately not. The stupid European politics, with trains and platforms of different heights do not allow a good entrance to the train. [E4 MAX 1 - 0 TGV]


















The interior is a bit tight but not overwhelming.


















The seats have a chaotic distribution. Can not change to go in the direction of travel. [E4 MAX 2 - 0 TGV]



























Back on the platform. Let's see the distribution of the tracks. At the northbound, the TGV is waiting in the track 3 (UIC), track 5, on the other side of the platform was an Iberian Gauge. Close the track 5, and extra UIC track.


















Southbound. Main tracks. At the other end, a platform without service. The final station will be located at the bottom of the image.


----------



## Sr.Horn

*Figueras - Perpignan HSL opening IV*

Arrival from Barcelona "ALVIA" which serves international connection. The train was the same S449 that I went from Barcelona but more expensive.









Southbound of TGV and S449 "ALVIA".



























SNCF and Renfe staff.









First class on the TGV. The window was broken by ice because of bad weather in central Europe.


















Information on the platform.



























Many media :lol:


----------



## Sr.Horn

*Figueras - Perpignan HSL opening V*

Onboard the TGV, on Spanish territory.









Passing Perthus Tunnel (8,300 m), La France!









SNCF interventors were very friendly and helpful.









Arriving the center of the world.









We waited five minutes at the station entrance. The TGV had to be coupled with another train. Finally, coupling was in the same station, it was stupid. Best the Mini-Shinkansen solution!


















Ten minutes later, departs to Paris Gare de Lyon...









Perpignan Station random pics.













































The new station isn't completed. We have to use the old station hall. It's very nice. As Salvador Dali said, "the center of the world".


















Many people who went to the first TGV Figueras - Paris, returned to Spain with the first train Paris - Figueras.



















... but we prefer to make a trip to the past. It was early. We decided to go in historic Yellow Train to Puigcerdà and return to Barcelona via Ribes de Fresser and Vic.

Bye!


----------



## Castor_Game

How many stupid things
:lol:


----------



## Andres_Low

Sr.Horn said:


> *Figueras - Perpignan HSL opening I*
> 
> Pics by me. December 19, 2010.


:applause:Thanks for the great report!


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## K_

Sr.Horn said:


> Security Guard only looked at the ticket you and made you go through the baggage scanner.


Odd that you manage to point out "stupid" things like seats that can't be turned (which no TGV has btw...) or mismatching platform/train floor levels, but entirely miss the pointlessness of this security theatre...


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## aniuska

^^This is the most important HS train line opened in Spain in the history, and not the link from Madrid to Valencia. Surprisingly, all important and main politicians went to the opening of the domestic line, but only the major of Figueres went to the opening of the HS international line.
Spain is different...

And one more remark: the train from Barcelona to Figueres Vilafant station was a "Media Distancia" and not and "Alvia". No comments...


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## 437.001

aniuska said:


> ^^This is the most important HS train line opened in Spain in the history, and not the link from Madrid to Valencia. Surprisingly, all important and main politicians went to the opening of the domestic line, but only the major of Figueres went to the opening of the HS international line.
> Spain is different...


This is ridiculous. 

Of course the new HSL from Madrid to Valencia was more important. 
It´s a link between the national capital and the third most important city in Spain.

How come can you consider it less important than the opening of a small sector of a yet-unfinished line that will run from Barcelona to nowh... Perpignan in Southern France?

It will only be really important the day the French will build THEIR part of the line till Nimes. Until then, it will work, but it will also be rather worthless.


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## gincan

437.001 said:


> This is ridiculous.
> 
> Of course the new HSL from Madrid to Valencia was more important.
> It´s a link between the national capital and the third most important city in Spain.
> 
> How come can you consider it less important than the opening of a small sector of a yet-unfinished line that will run from Barcelona to nowh... Perpignan in Southern France?
> 
> It will only be really important the day the French will build THEIR part of the line till Nimes. Until then, it will work, but it will also be rather worthless.


Well eh, the Madrid-Valencia line is very important if you want to fish for votes, especially if your name is Zapatero. 

However, the first ever international railconnection without gauge change will probably be several times more important for the economical development for Spain. 

For the first time ever it actually makes sense to run cross border freight-trains. Once and when the coastal rail line is built all the way down to Almeria it will probably bring more economical development to Spain than ALL the other rail lines on the Iberian peninsual together.


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## aniuska

437.001 said:


> This is ridiculous.
> 
> Of course the new HSL from Madrid to Valencia was more important.
> It´s a link between the national capital and the third most important city in Spain.
> 
> How come can you consider it less important than the opening of a small sector of a yet-unfinished line that will run from Barcelona to nowh... Perpignan in Southern France?
> 
> It will only be really important the day the French will build THEIR part of the line till Nimes. Until then, it will work, but it will also be rather worthless.


Pardon me?
The 1st UIC train connection for Spain in the history, and you say "ridiculous"? You must be joking...
Spain is different! LOL


gincan said:


> Well eh, the Madrid-Valencia line is very important if you want to fish for votes, especially if your name is Zapatero.
> 
> However, the first ever international railconnection without gauge change will probably be several times more important for the economical development for Spain.
> 
> For the first time ever it actually makes sense to run cross border freight-trains. Once and when the coastal rail line is built all the way down to Almeria it will probably bring more economical development to Spain than ALL the other rail lines on the Iberian peninsual together.


^^I agree!
I was meaning all this.


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## solchante

some pics of the new station in CUENCA, part of the new HSR line Madrid-Levante

*Cuenca Station*









images from:
*
VIDEO DE ADIF sobre Estación de Cuenca-Fernando Zóbel*
(5 minutos)


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## Coccodrillo

[email protected] said:


> Isn't there at least a demand for a train every 20-30 minutes throughout the day?


There may be, but as trains are often too expensive a lot of people still use the road (car or bus) or the air. After a depense of billions it would be more honest to allow also poorer people to use the train...

Anyway there is a certain number of underused infrastructures in Spain...like a new motorway with 2.000 vehicles per day (AP7 Cartaena-Almeria, that's my favourite example - usually a motorway isn't justified for less than 20.000 vehicles).


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## solchante

and another infography (in spanish) about the new line:


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## 437.001

aniuska said:


> Pardon me?
> The 1st UIC train connection for Spain in the history, and you say "ridiculous"? You must be joking...
> Spain is different! LOL


What I´m calling ridiculous is this attitude of complaining about no authorities being there for the opening of that mini-stretch when they were opening an entire line which will, in the immediate term, play a vital role for the Spanish economy and transports.

That Figueres to Perpignan international stretch is only 44km long.
It will one day have an interest when the French build their part of the line, and when Spain will finish the line between Barcelona and Figueres, but that could still be avoided if works stopped to save money for the economy...

Spain has certainly better things to do than listening to Barcelona´s CONSTANT, NIGHTMARISH political tantrums for all to hear about the rest of the planet not letting it be the centre of the entire universe, which, like every other normal person fully well knows, IT IS NOT.


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## 437.001

Are these pictures or RENDERS?



solchante said:


> some pics of the new station in CUENCA, part of the new HSR line Madrid-Levante
> 
> *Cuenca Station*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> images from:
> *
> VIDEO DE ADIF sobre Estación de Cuenca-Fernando Zóbel*
> (5 minutos)


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## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> What I´m calling ridiculous is this attitude of complaining about no authorities being there for the opening of that mini-stretch when they were opening an entire line which will, in the immediate term, play a vital role for the Spanish economy and transports.
> 
> That Figueres to Perpignan international stretch is only 44km long.
> It will one day have an interest when the French build their part of the line, and when Spain will finish the line between Barcelona and Figueres, but that could still be avoided if works stopped to save money for the economy...
> 
> Spain has certainly better things to do than listening to Barcelona´s CONSTANT, NIGHTMARISH political tantrums for all to hear about the rest of the planet not letting it be the centre of the entire universe, which, like every other normal person fully well knows, IT IS NOT.


For politicians and passengers, the Madrid-Valencia HSL is the most important opening.

But for rail transport in Spain, the first standard gauge railway entering the Iberian Peninsula ever is far more important. The most important train will be a freight though, not that TGV.


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## RamiroII

Saw this at LaTribune.fr:









Train is a Talgo 350 (Renfe S102/112)


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## RamiroII

Zero Gravity said:


> Anyways, my question is: How the hell was Spain able to pull off a HSR-Network like this? How did they finance it? What was the idea behind it? Why did they choose building rail instead of motorways? I couldn't find anything really answering my questions on wikipedia or when googling it, but im sure a lot of you know.
> 
> What is so mind-boggling to me is the rapid expansion of the network as of lately. Their network is already bigger than the LGV network, by far bigger than the german HSR-Network(which is in my eyes actually a joke; a bad one) and still continies to grow. Where did they get the money and political will to do all this? I don't understand how they did it :bash:
> 
> Enlighten me please!


Well, I'd say that it all started at the beginning of the 80's, when Spanish railways dated from the XIX century and were all crap because of lack of investment in the XX century, and RENFE was a money-burning machine with large deficits who had to close lots of lines. Therefore the Spanish Gov. had basically two options: a-) forget about moving people on rail or b-) build new lines with the latest tech. The Socialist government made a 15-year plan for investing 2 billion pesetas in railways, starting with the Madrid-Sevilla AVE, which was widely ridiculed by the right wing. But after opening in 1992 (the year of the Barcelona Olympics and the Sevilla Universal Exposition), it became a huge success, and a symbol of progress and the modernity of Spain. And then all politicians wanted to sell AVEs, and make lines everywhere etc. I'd say the current 2020 plan (PEIT) is quite overambitious and will not be done, but the big lines that actually make sense are all completed or almost.

How to pay for it? Of course the EU funds have helped a lot, but the money goes both ways, since Spain then buys to Alsthom, Siemens, Herrenknecht etc. But the main reason after the huge network is that the Spanish economy has been growing above the European average for decades, and there was a huge building boom which filled the state coffers. Actually the Spanish gov. was running budget surpluses until 2008, and had one of the lowest state debt in Europe. So I guess they didnt know what to do with so much money, and now we have the largest motorway and high speed rail networks in Europe... Also Spanish construction costs are relatively low per km compared to other countries, and some of the largest engineering/construction corporations are Spanish (ACS, Ferrovial, Acciona, OHL, Sacyr etc). Perhaps someone else might add more reasons :cheers:


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## Motorways

Zero Gravity said:


> Why did they choose building rail instead of motorways?



Do you realized that Spain also has over 14.000 kms of motorways right now right? I woudn´t really say "instead of", maybe an "and"could fix better there. cheers.


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## Zero Gravity

RamiroII said:


> Well, I'd say that it all started at the beginning of the 80's, when Spanish railways dated from the XIX century and were all crap because of lack of investment in the XX century, and RENFE was a money-burning machine with large deficits who had to close lots of lines. Therefore the Spanish Gov. had basically two options: a-) forget about moving people on rail or b-) build new lines with the latest tech. The Socialist government made a 15-year plan for investing 2 billion pesetas in railways, starting with the Madrid-Sevilla AVE, which was widely ridiculed by the right wing. But after opening in 1992 (the year of the Barcelona Olympics and the Sevilla Universal Exposition), it became a huge success, and a symbol of progress and the modernity of Spain. And then all politicians wanted to sell AVEs, and make lines everywhere etc. I'd say the current 2020 plan (PEIT) is quite overambitious and will not be done, but the big lines that actually make sense are all completed or almost.
> 
> How to pay for it? Of course the EU funds have helped a lot, but the money goes both ways, since Spain then buys to Alsthom, Siemens, Herrenknecht etc. But the main reason after the huge network is that the Spanish economy has been growing above the European average for decades, and there was a huge building boom which filled the state coffers. Actually the Spanish gov. was running budget surpluses until 2008, and had one of the lowest state debt in Europe. So I guess they didnt know what to do with so much money, and now we have the largest motorway and high speed rail networks in Europe... Also Spanish construction costs are relatively low per km compared to other countries, and some of the largest engineering/construction corporations are Spanish (ACS, Ferrovial, Acciona, OHL, Sacyr etc). Perhaps someone else might add more reasons :cheers:


I understand; well, it seems to me I know far to little about Spain and her economic developement. I wasn't aware of the fact that they had such strong growth and were never really short on money. The recent financial crisis gives you the exact opposite impression, but from what I've just read this is more a problem of an overheated real estate market.

Here in Austria the media gives you the impression that Spain is one of the weaker economies in the EU and they never bring up that Spain experienced solid growth while maintaining a positive budget. I wonder why hno: or maybe it's just me and I missed out on quite a lot :nuts:


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## 437.001

Zero Gravity said:


> Here in Austria the media gives you the impression that Spain is one of the weaker economies in the EU and they never bring up that Spain experienced solid growth while maintaining a positive budget. I wonder why hno: or maybe it's just me and I missed out on quite a lot :nuts:


Let´s say that it could be true in certain aspects, but certainly NOT in other aspects... and then there´s always the media effect, they´re like vultures...

The Spanish media NEVER give any info about Austria unless it is something they consider more or less 'creepy'... call it Amstetten, call it Haider, call it whatever... oh, and the elections, but until recently that was under the 'Haider' label... oh and Austrian skiers in winter.

It´s also curious, but I have this impression that today Spain has much more relationship with Germany than with Austria...


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## Cicerón

Well this may sound weird to some people but it's not always fiesta and siesta in Spain. We even pay taxes! And some people even work! (but only those who can find a job).

The EU also helped, especially until 2007 when the current budget (for the period 2007-2013) was calculated. From that year Spain also gives a lot of money to the EU:



> Money to EU (billions): 76
> Money from EU (billions): 78
> Net benefit (billions): 2.2
> Ratio of money (Out/In): 1.026
> Population (2007): 44,474,631
> Net benefit per capita: 49


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union#State_by_state_analysis

So, in the period 2007-2013, every Spaniard receives €49 from the EU, €7 per year. In the next EU budget Spain will give more money than it receives.

It's also true that infrastructures are much cheaper in Spain than in most of European countries, as the terrain is cheaper to buy and the population density is quite low.


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## Mare_nostrvm




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## Gadiri

> *Spain to build 450 km/h railway test circuit​*
> 20 December 2010
> 
> SPAIN: The government has approved a project to build what it describes as the *largest railway test circuit in the world, a 55 km loop designed for trials of 1 435 mm gauge rolling stock at speeds up to 450 km/h. Work on the facility at Bobadilla, between Córdoba and Málaga, is expected to start in 2011 and take four years to complete*.
> 
> Railway infrastructure authority ADIF is receiving a total of* €344·45m *for the project, co-funded by the Ministry of Science & Innovation and the European Regional Development Fund. The funding package comprises an interest-free loan of €209·73m and further loan of €134·72m bearing interest at 1·17%.
> 
> As well as the main circuit, the centre will *also feature a 20 km ring for testing 1 668 mm and 1 435 mm gauge rolling stock at up to 220 km/h. There will be a further 5 km of track for testing metro and light rail vehicles, including small-radius curves for dynamic trials*.
> 
> Construction of the test centre is expected to draw more railway suppliers to Andalucía, creating a total of 7 000 jobs and unlocking some €60m of private investment.


http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/ne...in-to-build-450-kmh-railway-test-circuit.html


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## zazo1

Red de AVE en servicio, en construcción y planificada con el tiempo de viaje desde Madrid
Ave network in service, construction, planned and the travelling time from Madrid


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## 437.001

^^



This map is already old, and not completely exact:

Missing:

-The new HSL between Medina and Puebla de Sanabria is in works.
-The new HSL from Madrid to Lisbon in the sector between Caceres and Badajoz is in works too.
-The new HSL from Seville to Antequera-Santa Ana is also in works.

Wrong:

-The HSL from Albacete to Murcia is not in works, just a short sector.
-The HSL from Murcia to Cartagena is not in works at all.
-The HSL between Burgos and Vitoria is not in works yet.
-The HSL north of Figueras to Perpignan in France is already in service.
-The HSL north of León doesn´t get to Oviedo but to Pola de Lena. BTW Oviedo is not on the Atlantic coast, but slightly inland, the city on the coast is Gijon.


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## RamiroII

From the International Railway Journal:




















Read here: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sb/irj1210/#/30











http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sb/irj1210/#/18

:cheers:


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## Patryk

Does RENFE and SNCF are going to buy new trains to operate the line Madrid - Paris in 2012? And what about CAF Oaris (350 km/h)? Is this train has already produced?


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## hammersklavier

Has anybody else bought those Talgo trains?


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## coche laboratorio

Patryk said:


> Does RENFE and SNCF are going to buy new trains to operate the line Madrid - Paris in 2012? And what about CAF Oaris (350 km/h)? Is this train has already produced?


No, it´s only prototype, testing begins this year


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## Mare_nostrvm

Here a magnificent exemple of how to mix a part of our Neo-mudejar architectural style heritage with modernity... :cheers:



Jav said:


> ¿Un destino que no es Madrid en la estación de Toledo?
> 
> 
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> 
> ¿Un tren que no es un AVANT en la estación de Toledo?
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> ¡Enhorabuena toledanos!


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=70358403#post70358403


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## solchante

Impact of high speed trains on temporal distances in Spain (*interactive *map  *Lainformacion*)



:cheers:


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## thun

Interesting map.

I'm not shocked to see that there are basically no other destinations than Madrid at Toledo station. But I'm rather surprised that there are even more than two trains of the same category. That is very revolutionary for RENFE standards...


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## Coccodrillo

Because until mid-december this line operated only as a Madrid-Toledo no-stop shuttle (without connections to other lines like Zaragoza, Barcellona, Sevilla, ...).


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## stingstingsting

Mare_nostrvm said:


> Here a magnificent exemple of how to mix a part of our Neo-mudejar architectural style heritage with modernity... :cheers:


Is that a one-tracked, one-platformed station? That would be highly unusual for a high speed rail line, unless I am mistaken. :nuts:


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## Mare_nostrvm

stingstingsting said:


> Is that a one-tracked, one-platformed station? That would be highly unusual for a high speed rail line, unless I am mistaken. :nuts:


No,it isn't.There are 2 other tracks in that railway station which can't be observed on the images..


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## skytrax

super


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## Gadiri

Mare_nostrvm said:


> Merci beaucoup pour ces vidéos Gadiri.
> 
> Thank you very much for those videos Gadiri.
> 
> I quote the last 2 messages of the previous page for those videos could be seen as well in this page..


You're welcome ! 



Gadiri said:


> From High-Speed Railway Networks around The World
> 
> *Renfe Trenhotel 7ª generación *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Tren 922, interior Tren Hotel, Barcelona - A Coruña - Vigo, 2009*


Others videos abour train hotel :

*Renfe TrenHotel *











*Talgo VII - Tren Hotel Alta Velocidad - 2009 *


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## Gadiri

Train/plane time comparaison on 2008 :

*¿Qué es más rápido, el AVE o el avión? *






*Madrid - Barcelona *:
*HST/AVE : 3h34 min
Avion : 3h49 min*

----------------

From moroccan forum : 

A comparaison between highway, TGV and plane between Strasbourg and Paris but with :
- time
- and cost


Gadiri said:


> *TGV EST, Paris Strasbourg*
> 
> *Comparatif : voiture / avion / TGV*
> 
> De la place Kleber à Strasbourg, au musée du Louvre à Paris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Voiture *
> 
> 
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> 
> *Avion*
> 
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> 
> *TGV*


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## Mare_nostrvm

*Alicante's new future Vialia High Speed Rail Station*


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## Daviolo

AFAIK, this station won't be Alicante's HSR station. Fomento refused it, i don't know why.


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## Mare_nostrvm

*Logroño's new railway integration.*

From min. 7:00 onward we can see how will be the new high sped train station of this city.


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## Mare_nostrvm

Daviolo said:


> AFAIK, this station won't be Alicante's HSR station. Fomento refused it, i don't know why.


I didn't know that.I thought this project was the chosen one..


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## jovibo

I think the Alicante new high speed railway station has been delayed till .... (who knows?). It is more or less equal to the case of Valencia station. The new one is only temporary (for N years I suppose).

By the way, Fomento has given the green light to proceed with the last kilometre of the HSR line reaching Alicante (55 million euro, 13 months, half of it as a tunnel), see http://www.diarioinformacion.com/al...ve-alicante-adjudica-55-millones/1089236.html (in Spanish).


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## dumbfword

Mare_nostrvm said:


> *Alicante's new future Vialia High Speed Rail Station*


Nice. Looks like a shopping mall or entrance to a sports arena. Sucks it won't be built.


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## Daviolo

dumbfword said:


> Nice. Looks like a shopping mall or entrance to a sports arena. Sucks it won't be built.


Actually, he already have many shopping mails in Alicante. I don't think we needed another one... Anyway, i really want to see the new design :cheers:


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## Mare_nostrvm

Recently has been iniciated a tender process for build the new Huelva's high speed rail station.One of this 5 projects will be the chosen one..:cheers:



JaVI® said:


> Pues aquí pongo las diferentes propuestas. Perdonad la calidad, pero es que están escaneadas de le ediición impresa del diario Odiel Información.
> 
> *Propuesta 1 - Puerta Umbría*
> 
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> *Propuesta 2*
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> 
> *Propuesta 3 - Dunas*
> 
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> *Propuesta 4 - Flujo de cobre*
> 
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> *Propuesta 5 - 8&9*
> 
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> 
> Pues esto ha sido todo, un saludo


MORE INFO:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=72200465#post72200465


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## Luli Pop

I like "propuesta 4", the rest are quite monotonous


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## jovibo

*IBERIA gives up in the Madrid-Valencia corridor*

The titles says everything, "IBERIA gives up in the Madrid-Valencia corridor". 

There are four companies flying from Madrid and Valencia, Iberia, Air Nostrum, Spanair and Ryanair, although it could be said to be honest, that there are five, those four plus Renfe with the AVE train. 

From March onwards Iberia will no offer any more flights between Madrid and Valencia because the AVE train has reduced more than 30% the air passengers (only one month after the introduction of the high speed train, so it would be possible that the reduction in the next months would be superior to that). Only Air Nostrum, Iberia´s franchise, will be continuing offering flights.

Link: http://www.expansion.com/2011/02/08...991f064909985dd57b221cbdc494095d&t=1297239019


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## Castor_Game

The Ministry of Public Works (FOMENTO) has completed the opening of High Speed interchange that will link Madrid-Chamartin and Atocha stations and passengers will avoid having to make transfers between stations continued to travel to the South and the East in high speed trains. This tunnel, which will be operational within a year, according to sources Adif creates the possibility to open Renfe hotlines between Asturias, Basque Country, Galicia and Andalusia, a trip that now only be done via Madrid, where it is mandatory transhipment. In the line between Gijón and Alicante would save the time spent now in the gauge change between Chamartin and Atocha.






*MAP OF THE TUNNEL*

http://www.adif.es/es_ES/infraestructuras/doc/IyE_lav_Tunel_Atocha_mapa.pdf


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## Mare_nostrvm

More about the new Atocha-Chamartín Tunnel..



neuromancer said:


> Túnel Atocha - Chamartín
> 
> El viernes se realizó el calado del túnel.


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## solchante

and more about the tunnel 














y el video de adif:

*TÚNEL ALTA VELOCIDAD ATOCHA - CHAMARTÍN. VÍDEO ACTO PERFORACIÓN TÚNEL*


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## Mare_nostrvm

Today has been presented the new Vigo's High Speed rail station by the Ministry of public works...:cheers:

The architect is the American Thom Mayne.

From the Spanish forum..

*VIDEO*


Vialia Estación de Vigo - Adif



> José Blanco presenta el proyecto de la estación de alta velocidad Vialia de Vigo
> 
> * La nueva estación Vialia, que se construirá sobre el cajón ferroviario, constará de dos plantas con área comercial y de ocio y otras dos plantas de aparcamiento.
> * Albergará seis vías y cuatro andenes, e incluirá una gran plaza pública de 26.082 m2 al nivel de su cubierta.
> * Por su carácter innovador y características arquitectónicas, la edificación será un referente europeo en materia de estaciones ferroviarias.
> * El presupuesto de construcción de la estación Vialia asciende a más de 181 millones de euros.





enjoy said:


>





fila11 said:


>


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## dumbfword

Looks good! Which HSR will this be built on?


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## cuartango

^^ Vigo-Ourense-Zamora-Segovia-Madrid (Galicia LAV now in construction).

It is a huge station, very risky because of the money, but looks awesome.


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## dumbfword

cuartango said:


> ^^ Vigo-Ourense-Zamora-Segovia-Madrid (Galicia LAV now in construction).
> 
> It is a huge station, very risky because of the money, but looks awesome.


Cool. Thanks. Thom Mayne is a great architect. Hopefully it gets built.


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## Mare_nostrvm

Cuartango I think you forgot the Atlantic high speed axis as well which will go from Ferrol until the Portuguese border, crossing Vigo among others..


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## Gadiri

> *World rail infrastructure market February 2011
> 
> 16 February 2011 *
> 
> *Spain:* The Ministry of Development has awarded a joint venture of Azvi and Tecsa a * €561m contract for track and electrification works to double the 264 km Utera - Las Cabezas de San Juan section of the Sevilla - Cádiz route*. Work will include *rebuilding Las Cabezas de San Juan station, making provision for future conversion to 1435 mm gauge and 25 kV AC electrification*.


http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/ne...rail-infrastructure-market-february-2011.html


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## gincan

^^

Should read 26,4 km, the whole railway between Seville and Cadiz wll be 157 km.


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## Mare_nostrvm

More about the new Centre for Testing and Experimentation Railway Technologies which will be built in Antequera(Málaga,Andalucía).The main goal of this Centre is try to put Spanish railway system at the forefront of European and world technology in this field with an important R+D investment and the construction of the largest rail ring in the world for high speed testing.


Centro de tecnologías ferroviarias de Málaga / Anillo ferroviario de ensayos - Adif


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## Mare_nostrvm

*New video about the High Speed Rail line construction in Elche(Alicante)*











Alta velocidad en Elche (Alicante) - Adif


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## Kuvvaci

I have a question... are the train ticket prices in Spain expensive?


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## Coccodrillo

If you buy them just before your trip, yes they are too expensive (Madrid-Valencia 80€ second class), if you buy them via internet some weeks in advance you may get more reasonable prices (32€ in my example).


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## Pablo Diablo

Coccodrillo said:


> If you buy them just before your trip, yes they are too expensive (Madrid-Valencia 80€ second class), if you buy them via internet some weeks in advance you may get more reasonable prices (32€ in my example).


Is €80 for AVE? If it is, that's CHEAP!
Madrid to Valencia is roughly the same distance as London to Newcastle. London-Newcastle takes an hour longer than Madrid-Valencia and costs £150 (€175) on the day!


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## Suburbanist

Pablo Diablo said:


> Is €80 for AVE? If it is, that's CHEAP!
> Madrid to Valencia is roughly the same distance as London to Newcastle. London-Newcastle takes an hour longer than Madrid-Valencia and costs £150 (€175) on the day!


It is hard to compare prices without knowing the average actual paid price by every traveler on a given route. UK and Spain have nice ticketing systems, as there are plenty of leeway for discounts on advance purchase and a consistent policy to milk the last-minute travelers to provide such discounts. They are more modern than the prices with low variation on Italian railways or no variation on Switzerland.


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## Mare_nostrvm

*High Speed Rail Line Antequera-Granada.*


LAV Antequera - Granada (Febrero 2011) - Adif


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## vallacopito-tranolid

Suburbanist said:


> It is hard to compare prices without knowing the average actual paid price by every traveler on a given route. UK and Spain have nice ticketing systems, as there are plenty of leeway for discounts on advance purchase and a consistent policy to milk the last-minute travelers to provide such discounts. They are more modern than the prices with low variation on Italian railways or no variation on Switzerland.


Well, in Spanish case it's not working at all because the current ticketing system hasn't managed to take that last-minute traveller who you're talking about, so the trains are not full as they could... Renfe has to change his ticketing system in order to make it similar to the low-cost airlines, because we're not talking about the slow trains on XX century, instead of that, we're with trains that often hit the planes in medium distances... It's hoped that we'll be able to see this when more companies enter in the railway system and compete with Renfe.

_Saludos _


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## sotavento

Suburbanist said:


> It is hard to compare prices without knowing the average actual paid price by every traveler on a given route. UK and Spain have nice ticketing systems, as there are plenty of leeway for discounts on advance purchase and a consistent policy to milk the last-minute travelers to provide such discounts. They are more modern than the prices with low variation on Italian railways or no variation on Switzerland.



Paris-Tours (200km) = 42,7€ (IC = 31,5€)
Paris-Lyon(400km) = 66,5€ 

London-Birmingham(165km) = 59,1€
London-York(280km) = 75,3€
London-Liverpool(290km) = 80€
London-Bristol(170km) = 100€

Madrid-Valencia(300km) = 79,8€ (Alvia= 62,6€ /Reg= 24,4€)
Madrid-Barcelona(600km) = 117,6€ 
Madrid-Cordoba(300km) = 68,4€ (Altaria= 53,7€)

Just for REFERENCE:
Lisboa-Porto(300km) = 30€ (IC= 21€ / Reg = 15,3€)
Braga-Faro(600km) = 51€ (IC = 40€)
Coimbra-Lisboa (200km) = 22,5€ (IC=16,5 /reg= 11,65€)
Rome-Naples(190km) = 45€ (IC =22€ /reg. =10,5€ )
Rome-Milan(470km) = 91€ (IC = 49,5€)
Moscow-S.Petersburg(630km) = 79.32€(Sapsan) 
Helsinki-Tampere (160km) = 34,9€
Stockolm-Jonkoping(290km) = 49€

"True HSR" = more than doubled cost of tickets. hno:


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## gincan

HSR in Spain is to expensive compared to the neighbour France. The flagship line Madrid-Barcelona has failed to attract a substantial market share thanks to Renfes pricing policy. Three years after the line has opened there are still about 20 daily busses running between Madrid and Barcelona depite the fact that the train is now more than twice as fast with the direct trains being even thrice as fast (2 1/2 hours vs 8 hours for the busses). 

The modal split between train and air is still not in favor of the railbased alternative after 3 years of operating the HSR line (HSR about 45%-50% and airtravel between 50 and 55%).

Had Renfe opted for a different pricing model more in line with say the one used by SNCF, the busses would have been wiped out completely and the modal share between air and rail would be more in the 70-30% or maybe even 80-20% range in favor of rail.


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## Mare_nostrvm

^^ In my humble opinion,the real problem is in the wrong rail policy of "AVE para todos" (AVE for everyone) which requires a great investment in high speed rail lines that surely won't be profitable.Obviously it demands a higher pricing policy with regard to others neighbours to amortize the huge investment on this expensive kind of infrastructures..

On the other hand,today has been announced the winner of the tender process of new Huelva high speed rail station.The project chosen finally is "Puerta Umbría" of the Spanish architect "Rafael de la Hoz"..:cheers:



> *The new*(In Spanish)
> 
> http://prensa.adif.es/ade/u08/GAP/Prensa.nsf/Vo000A/C127D8CA6B1D8DA3C125784E00456DCC?OpenDocument
> 
> *The chosen one*(Puerta Umbría project)


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## solchante

^^ that one was my favourite 

new video from ADIF.es


*Rail Technology Center in Malaga / Rail testing and Experimentation Loop Line*


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## Mare_nostrvm

Today has been presented by the "Ministerio de Fomento"(Ministry of public works) the technical study about the new Spanish Mediterranean Railway Corridor.

*PDF Document*

http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/...11031605PPresentacionCorredorMediterraneo.pdf

*New in Spanish*



> José Blanco presenta el estudio técnico del Corredor Mediterráneo
> 
> _ * El corredor ferroviario, que discurrirá entre la frontera francesa y Algeciras, será un eje transversal de transporte de mercancías y de viajeros en alta velocidad que romperá la radialidad de la red existente.
> * Estará plenamente operativo en 2020 y conectará las principales ciudades del arco mediterráneo dando acceso a sus puertos y sus nodos logísticos.
> * En total, el Gobierno de España destinará más de 51.300 millones de euros a todas las actuaciones previstas en el Corredor.
> * Fomento ya ha ejecutado inversiones por valor de 8.400 millones de euros para la puesta en marcha del eje ferroviario._
> 
> El ministro de Fomento, José Blanco, ha presidido hoy en Barcelona el acto de presentación del Estudio Técnico del Corredor Mediterráneo, proyecto clave para el desarrollo del corredor en los próximos años. En el acto también han participado el presidente de la Generalitat de Cataluña, Artur Mas, el presidente de la Región de Murcia, Ramón Luis Valcárcel, el consejero de Infraestructuras y Transportes de la Comunidad Valenciana, Mario Flores, y la consejera de Obras Públicas y Vivienda de la Junta de Andalucía, Josefina Cruz Villalón.
> 
> El Corredor Mediterráneo discurre a lo largo de casi 1.300 kilómetros por cuatro Comunidades Autónomas (Cataluña, Valencia, Murcia y Andalucía) y aglutina a prácticamente la mitad de la población española y el 40% del PIB.
> 
> En él se localizan cinco de las diez áreas metropolitanas más importantes de España y se ubican importantes nodos y centros de actividad de transporte de mercancías. Siguiendo toda la costa, desde Figueres a Algeciras, el Corredor conectará los puertos de mayor actividad de la Península Ibérica, líderes en tráficos de mercancías en el mar Mediterráneo.
> 
> Se trata, por tanto, de un eje de transporte estratégico tanto para el transporte de viajeros como para el flujo de mercancías.
> 
> Así, el objetivo del Estudio presentado hoy es concretar las actuaciones que permitan mejorar la funcionalidad de la red ferroviaria a lo largo del Corredor Mediterráneo y favorecer la captación de tráficos por el ferrocarril, al objeto de lograr un reparto más equilibrado entre modos, tanto en viajeros como en mercancías.
> 
> En materia de viajeros, este objetivo se traduce en completar con las actuaciones necesarias una infraestructura ferroviaria apta para el tráfico de alta velocidad a lo largo de todo el corredor.
> 
> Y, por lo que se refiere a las mercancías, el objetivo se centra en impulsar un corredor ferroviario competitivo de transporte de mercancías integrado en la red europea.
> 
> En definitiva, el objetivo principal de este proyecto es impulsar un eje ferroviario transversal de transporte de viajeros en alta velocidad y de mercancías que rompa la radialidad de la red existente. El corredor conectará las principales ciudades del arco mediterráneo y dará acceso a sus puertos, nodos logísticos y grandes centros industriales.
> Actuaciones e inversión
> 
> El estudio técnico incluye las actuaciones de mejora de la infraestructura ferroviaria, de la red básica de mercancías, de los accesos a los puertos o nodos logísticos, y de integración urbana que se están llevando a cabo o se van a realizar en los próximos años en todo el arco mediterráneo.
> 
> El Ministerio de Fomento trabaja intensamente en el diseño, ejecución y potenciación del Corredor Mediterráneo desde 2004. De hecho, hasta el año 2010 se han ejecutado ya inversiones en el Corredor por valor de 8.400 millones de euros.
> 
> Estas inversiones realizadas, junto a las actuaciones incluidas en el estudio técnico, han permitido diseñar un escenario programado y coherente para el impulso del corredor en los próximos años. Algunas de las previsiones para los próximos años son las siguientes:
> 
> * En 2012 se pondrá en servicio la Línea de Alta Velocidad Barcelona-Girona-Frontera Francesa. Se trata de una infraestructura de gran complejidad, con una inversión prevista de más de 4.000 millones de euros.
> * En torno a 2013 estarán en servicio las obras de duplicación entre Vandellós y Tarragona. De esta forma se resolverá el cuello de botella que actualmente supone para el corredor este tramo, el único que queda en vía única entre Barcelona y Valencia.
> * En 2012, la Alta Velocidad llegará a Alicante, y en 2014 se extenderá hasta Murcia.
> * El Ministerio de Fomento ha iniciado ya el proceso para licitar todo el tramo de Alta Velocidad Valencia-Castellón-Tarragona por un importe superior a 5.000 millones de euros, mediante la fórmula de colaboración público-privada. Con esta actuación integral, no sólo se adelantará la ejecución de la nueva línea, sino que se potenciará la conexión, tanto para pasajeros como para mercancías, de la línea de Alta Velocidad Valencia-Barcelona.
> * Además en 2011, se licitará el Estudio para el desarrollo del corredor Mediterraneo por la Costa Andaluza entre Algeciras, Málaga, Motril y Almería.
> 
> En total, todas las actuaciones para poner en marcha el Corredor Mediterráneo supondrán una inversión de más de 51.300 millones de euros. Este esfuerzo presupuestario otorgará los siguientes beneficios:
> 
> * Creación de un eje ferroviario europeo de primer nivel para el transporte de mercancías y viajeros.
> * Mejora y aumento de la cuota ferroviaria en el transporte de mercancías.
> * Reducción de tiempo de viaje en el transporte de viajeros en todo el arco mediterráneo.
> * Aumento de la demanda en el transporte de viajeros.
> * Apuesta por un transporte sostenible, orientado al respeto al medio ambiente y a la eficiencia energética.
> 
> Eje prioritario en Europa
> 
> El Gobierno de España está impulsando además todas las gestiones necesarias para que el Corredor Mediterráneo pueda incluirse en la Red Básica Transeuropea de Transportes. Ello permitiría que este eje se posicionara como una de las principales plataformas logísticas intercontinentales en Europa.
> 
> Así, en el marco del nuevo proceso de orientación de redes abierto en 2009, Fomento está realizando todos los esfuerzos para que el Corredor sea incluido como proyecto prioritario para Europa. Este trabajo se está desarrollando de forma coordinada y conjunta con las Comunidades Autónomas, los ayuntamientos y los agentes económicos y sociales.
> 
> En el anterior proceso de revisión de estas redes, abierto por la Comisión Europea entre 2001 y 2003, España no solicitó esta inclusión.
> El corredor, plenamente operativo en 2020
> 
> Las actuaciones previstas en el estudio técnico, junto a las ya realizadas o en marcha, permitirán que el Corredor Mediterráneo esté plenamente operativo en el año 2020.
> 
> Así, se establecerá un itinerario continuo entre Almería y la frontera francesa para la circulación preferente de trenes de mercancías de ancho internacional. Y también, en 2020, dispondrán de conexión operativa con el Corredor Mediterráneo, Algeciras, Málaga y Granada a través del Eje ferroviario transversal Andaluz, y el Eje Prioritario numero 16.
> 
> En 2020, las conexiones de los principales puertos y nodos logísticos estarán también finalizadas y operativas, tanto en ancho ibérico como en ancho internacional.
> 
> En el mismo horizonte, todo el corredor estará conectado desde Almería con Francia y el Resto de Europa con trenes de viajeros de alta velocidad en vía doble de ancho internacional, pasando por Murcia, Alicante, Valencia, Castellón, Tarragona-Barcelona y Girona.
> Situación final del Corredor Mediterráneo
> 
> Una vez finalicen todas las obras previstas, el Corredor Mediterráneo dispondrá de una línea básica de mercancías que garantizará la continuidad y la capacidad necesaria en todo el eje y de una línea de alta velocidad para el transporte de viajeros.
> 
> La línea de mercancías conectará todos los puertos y las instalaciones logísticas ferroviarias, permitirá el paso de trenes de hasta 750 metros de longitud e independizará los tráficos de mercancías de los de viajeros.
> 
> Por su parte, la línea de alta velocidad conectará todas las ciudades principales del eje y reducirá notablemente los tiempos de viaje, aumentando la calidad del servicio y el confort de los pasajeros.
> 
> http://www.fomento.es/MFOM/LANG_CAS..._DE_PRENSA/NOTICIAS1/2011/MARZO/110316-05.htm


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## deckard_6

Una gran noticia, gracias Mare_nostrvm. De todos modos siguen dejando fuera del trazado a toda la zona costera desde Valencia a Alicante, donde existen nucleos de población tan importantes como Cullera, Gandía, Denia, Benidorm o Villajoyosa. No tengo los datos en este momento pero estoy seguro que en esta franja costera pueden llegar a concentrase más de 1 millón de personas durante los meses de julio y agosto. Es una pena que estas personas vayan a tener que seguir desplazandose en coche, utilizando además unas autopistas carísimas y bastante peligrosas en algunos tramos.


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## solchante

^^ se supone que es un tren de alta velocidad, no un cercanias


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## deckard_6

Vale, ahora entiendo porque se desvia hacia La Encina y no para en Gandía, donde viven más de 80.000 personas, o en Benidorm, donde en verano se concentran más de medio millón de habitantes. Muy lógico si señor. Un diez para el ministerio de fomento.


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## Mare_nostrvm

^^ It seems the idea is to use the existing infraestructures in the area and modernize them,saving some money that way.Who knows if in the future(In the long term) will be built a new stretch which links Gandía or Benidorm among others..


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## joseph1951

cuartango said:


> With the due respect, that is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard.
> 
> The new stations will be built when it is necessary only. Some of them will be reformed. Turning them down does not make any sense.


^^
I agree entirely.


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## 437.001

Here´s an accelerated ride along the R1 line in suburban Barcelona, from L´Hospitalet through (and under) Barcelona to Mataro and Calella. The Barcelona to Mataro route is the oldest line in mainland Spain (built in 1848), although the first line in Spain was the Havana to Güimes line (1837), back then Cuba was still Spanish.
As you can see, this line is VERY interesting if you want to go to the beach.


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## 437.001

And here´s another ride through suburban Barcelona: R2 from the Airport through Barcelona to Granollers-Centre and back to Barcelona-Sants.


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## 437.001

International ride from Puigcerda (Spain) to Latour de Carol (France). 
The train is Spanish.






...and back from Latour de Carol (France) to Puigcerda (Spain).


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## 437.001

And back to suburban Barcelona for a ride from Vilanova i la Geltru to Garraf along the R2.


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## Suburbanist

^^ What is the platform gauge on suburban rail (Cercanías) in Spain? It looks to be too low for me, which create incentives for people to cross tracks instead of taking under/overpasses or official grade pedestrian crossings.


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## Luli Pop

ask the 13 colombians, bolivians and equatorians killed by a HST while ilegaly crossing the tracks in Castelldefels...


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## OriK

If you mean the "heigh" of the platform as i've understood, there are 2, one short and other tall, the short is used (at least where I live) in old stations of low-medium frequency lines... some of those statios have an area across the tracks (instead of under/overpasses) allowing passengers to cross them but I've only seen that on stations with less than a train per hour...

Nevertheless I've seen that when one of those stations with short platforms is reformed, they upgrade the platform to a taller one (with ramps to cross the tracks), this is done for accesibility.

The taller platform its at the same heigh of the train's door.

P.S. I think that no HST pass throught Castelldefels, those people where crossing illegaly the tracks as there is a subterranean pass and the trains passing are alerted to the passengers by loudspeakers and signages.


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## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What is the platform gauge on suburban rail (Cercanías) in Spain? It looks to be too low for me, which create incentives for people to cross tracks instead of taking under/overpasses or official grade pedestrian crossings.


68 cm, that´s the definitive standard for platforms in the Adif rail network. 
You can jump from those 68 cm when the train passes by if you want, Sub...
We´ll take the bits of you and put them in a cenotaph that we´ll carry to the Empire State Building. Then we´ll decide what to do with it.

Anyway, in France, Switzerland, Germany and Italy platforms are lower. 
Platforms in Spain aren´t that low (there might still be a few stations with low platforms, but they´re in the process of being refurbished to high), although they´re usually not as high as in the underground.
Still, some non-Adif companies do have high platforms just like in the underground (FGC, FEVE, FGV...).


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## 437.001

An accelerated ride from Beniel to Alicante, on a Cercanías.


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## Aurelio

Luli Pop said:


> ask the 13 colombians, bolivians and equatorians killed by a HST while ilegaly crossing the tracks in Castelldefels...


That train was not a HST but a Commuter train (Rodalies)...


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## 437.001

Aurelio said:


> That train was not a HST but a Commuter train (Rodalies)...


No, it actually was an Alaris. The dead were crossing the tracks, and the commuter train had just left them in the station.


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## gincan

Luli Pop said:


> ask the 13 colombians, bolivians and equatorians killed by a HST while ilegaly crossing the tracks in Castelldefels...


Crossing tracks is a common practice in Spain, part because over/underpasses are relatively new in Spain but part because of bad design. (sideplatforms invite to cross the track) Renfe should have decided on 70-80 cm island platforms for all their commuter train stations decades ago. That would have been great now when the old narrow sideplatforms are overcrowded with little or no space to expand them.

I grew up in a country with 100% island platforms on the commuter train network, during 20 years I never once saw a single person cross the tracks. In Spain I witness this practice daily and narrow escapes are common.


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## x-type

people, could somebody tell me few things about rolling stock: does series 102/112 (el pato) appear on route Barcelona - Madrid? if yes, is there continous service on the same train? if yes, which number that train is? also, does it ever appear on route Madrid - Sevilla? and last - how often it is on the route to Malga comparing to series 103?


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## Patryk

Could someone add pictures of the newly build station of Barcelona-Sagrera?


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## Coccodrillo

As far I know:



> does series 102/112 (el pato) appear on route Barcelona - Madrid? if yes, is there continous service on the same train? if yes, which number that train is?


102/112 are used on Barcellona-Sevilla/Malaga trains (without stop in Madrid), on the Barcellona-Madrid line only 103 (Velaro E) trains are used.



> also, does it ever appear on route Madrid - Sevilla?


Madrid-Sevilla mainly, or only, uses the series 100 (TGV).



> and last - how often it is on the route to Malga comparing to series 103?


To Malaga only or mainly 102 are used, and 112 on Valencia.

On the Madrid-Valladolid all trains are amde with variable gauge vehicles (120 or 130 and derived) or the non-tilting Pendolino (104), except one AVE service (102?).


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## Aurelio

437.001 said:


> No, it actually was an Alaris. The dead were crossing the tracks, and the commuter train had just left them in the station.


Thanks for the comment, I wasn't right then.


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## Gadiri

I like the light on the platform for passengers security.


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## sotavento

^^ Here in portugal old people are always crossing at grade from one platform to the other in the northern line ... and the platforms are all over 1m high.

Suicidal tendancies ... :dunno: 




Once I even saw and old fool crossing with his bike (on it's back) while we were aproaching at 220km/h ... somehow miraculously he managed to escape safely ... by the time we had aplied the emergency breakes we were already besides him ... somehow he found the strenght to throw the bike over to the platform and tren made a kickboxing-like move and climbed the platform ... :lol:


On the other hand ... the tendancies for crossing the tracks in the spanish major stations is there ... extremelly low platforms everywhere ... just think of being inside a Talgo and needing to step DOWN from it. :dunno:


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## 437.001

^^ 
Don´t think there are that many low platforms left, they still exist, but not so many as it used to...
The tendency is to put all platforms at the standard 68cm.
It takes time, of course.


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## alserrod

437.001 said:


> This is a class 592 diesel unit, in Lorca (Spain), on a commuter service on the Murcia- Lorca line, at a rail crossing in Lorca.
> Lorca suffered months ago an earthquake.
> Lorca station partially collapsed, but the rail service was restarted the day after, surprisingly...




Thread about that earthquake
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1378105

11th March 2011, 
5,5 Ritcher.


Lorca station (and part of infrastructures) were distroyed but service was closed only one day


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## alserrod

One of the most old trains in Spains will partially dissapear to be served with a new one.

It is one train that daily starts at Barcelona and go, by the coast to Valencia, later to the interior to Alcazar de San Juan... there, a branch is separated to go to Badajoz (in the border with Portugal). The rest of the train will continue and at Linares will be separated another branch which alternative days will go to Granada or to Almeria.

Finally the train gets separated in two main branches at Cordoba. One to Sevilla, another to Malaga.


The change will be:

A double composition train, with material newer than actual to make Barcelona - Sevilla/Malaga via Valencia-Alcazar
And trains to shuttle to Badajoz and Almeria / Granada like now.



Edit.... apart of those trains, there are direct trains from Barcelona to Sevilla and to Malaga with stops in the firsts and last stations. Those trains are goes by the high speed lane. It's non stop at Madrid, saving time and runs Barcelona-Sevilla in less than 5h30min (1200 km more or less, depending of itinerary...)


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## alserrod

In september there will be some changes in one long-distance train (one of the longest today).

Today, there is a train with several branches from Barcelona to Badajoz, Almería, Granada, Malaga and Sevilla (Almeria and Granada 3 days per week, alternative).

It will be changed by a new train Barcelona-Malaga/Sevilla using the trains were used between Madrid and Valencia before high speed line. They will travel together until Cordoba where will be separated to each city.

Apart of it, there will be new trains Alcazar-Badajoz and Linares-Almería or Granada which will shuttle with this train.

It is a train in the conventional rails, not in the high speed line. It starts at Barcelona and goes besides the coast until Valencia and later to the interior until Alcazar, just to turn south.
Stations with stop will be the same. 

The new train, apart of more confort, will use one hour less than now point to point.

Between Barcelona and Tarragona to Sevilla, Cordoba and Malaga there are two daily high speed trains (four in the case of Cordoba, where is the junction) which takes half of time to do the journey.

But this train is used to shuttle with more stations and has an important number of passengers between little stations.


The train replaced will replace at the same time, later to the Irun-Salamanca which is served by the oldest long distance train in Spain.

After that replacing, the trains type "Arco" could be considered as the oldest in Spain, and there will be not too many.


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## 437.001

The new hybrid S-730 train. 
It was filmed in Vinaros, between Tarragona and Castellon, on the Barcelona-Valencia line, and was probably doing a test.
This train is a Bi-Bi-Bi, double gauge (iberian/UIC), double tension (3kV/25kV), double mode (diesel/electric).
It might operate on Alvia services to some non-electrified destinations, like Madrid-Murcia-Cartagena, Madrid-Zamora-Coruña/Vigo, or Madrid-Cordova-Algeciras.


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## Harrys

Hi
Is there any new figures about the Madrid-Valencia Line ?


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## alserrod

Let me ask...


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## pcrail

*Technical data hybrid S-730 train*



437.001 said:


> The new hybrid S-730 train.


Technical data of this train can be found in this presentation on page 19.

The trains have 9 instead of 11 passenger coaches, the generator car has one track and one set of Talgo wheels.
Power under diesel is 2.4 MW. Length: 186 m, empty weight 361 t.


----------



## pcrail

*New figures from Madrid-Valencia High Speed Line*



Harrys said:


> Hi
> Is there any new figures about the Madrid-Valencia Line ?


After 6 month there have been almost one million passengers (exactly 960.000 passengers, with 7.000 passengers traveling on an average week-end day). This is more than 83% of the total amount of journeys between Madrid and Valencia. 
Renfe estimate that the commissioning of the high speed rail service between Madrid and Valencia attracted a high percentage of trips, which had been made before with other modes of transport: the statistic showed that before opening of the high speed line 55% traveled by air, 25% by coach and 5 % by private car. 
The dates from the week-end of August 15 will be also interesting. On this long week-end several festivals took place and 30 trains run with doubled capacity. Ok, the weather was really poor on this week-end, so I don't know it the increased capacity was a success.


Source: Datos de ocupación del corredor Madrid-Valencia, posted August 23.


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## etcs_03

In www.ferropedia.es you may find 

- figures about the Madrid-Valencia Line


- figures on other lines



Harrys said:


> Hi
> Is there any new figures about the Madrid-Valencia Line ?


----------



## etcs_03

pcrail said:


> Technical data of this train can be found in this presentation on page 19.
> 
> The trains have 9 instead of 11 passenger coaches, the generator car has one track and one set of Talgo wheels.
> Power under diesel is 2.4 MW. Length: 186 m, empty weight 361 t.


Some additional data in www.ferropedia.es :
http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Renfe_Serie_730


----------



## alserrod

To help people who do not speak Spanish, I write a free translation resume of those data:

I write always the result of 2010 and forecast for 2011 (made considering first 6 months data and extrapolating to all the year):


High Speed Line Madrid - Valencia

It has the stations of Madrid, Cuenca, Utiel-Requena and Valencia

2010 total corridor 1,12 million passengers
2011 total corridor 2,20 million passengers

2010 Madrid-Valencia (point to point) 728.000 pass
2011 Madrid-Valencia (point to point) at least 1,9 million pass


Trains Vs Plane in Madrid-Valencia

2010: 45,3%
2011: more than 70%


Madrid-Castellon (only High speed line to Valencia)
2 daily trains

2010. 54.000 pass
2011. 83.000 pass


Station of Requena-Utiel
Average of 48 pass/day (with four daily stops)


Madrid-Alicante (high speed line until Albacete)

2010: 1 million pass
2011: 1 million pass




As we can see, numbers have been increased where high speed is point to point (if change there is no so much difference). Specially Valencia because third city of Spain. Cuenca and Albacete have increased numbers too, but they are much smaller than Valencia.

Madrid-Valencia takes 88% trips of the corridor.


----------



## Suburbanist

alserrod said:


> Madrid-Valencia takes 88% trips of the corridor.


This is interesting: it makes such lines more attractive to active price managment, as I bet few, if any, will use the line on a dail basis and, for the distance separating Valencia and Madrid, driving or taking a bus is not a really time wise decision.


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## 437.001

On September the 8th, the new station serving the Jerez de la Frontera Airport will open.
That´s in the Cadiz province, in Andalusia (South).
Il will be served by Cercanías (suburban) and Media Distancia (regional trains).
The number of trains stopping at the station will be quite small for now, as the airport seems to be served only by Ryanair...
On a more historical way, the station is not new, it was formerly known as 'La Parra' and has been for many years closed to passenger service.

============================================

On September the 23th there will be a remodelation of the Madrid Cercanías Renfe lines, but we still don´t know the details. We suspect it will be the day the new Aeropuerto T4 station will open.

==========================================

A few days ago the new Vigo-Guixar station opened (in the city of Vigo, Galicia, North-West, near Portugal), it´s the old freight station upgraded for passenger trains while the old Vigo-Urzáiz station closes for the High Speed Line works... it´s located by the port, but not very far from the old one.

===========================================

Hmmm... that´s about it, I believe. 
There´s come more to say, but´it´s about high speed trains.


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## 437.001

The new station Aeropuerto de Jerez on the Cadiz-Seville line has been inaugurated today, service starts tomorrow.

It will be served by Cercanías suburban trains from Cadiz to Aeropuerto de Jerez, and also by regional trains Seville-Cadiz.

It serves the Jerez de la Frontera airport, in the city of Jerez de la Frontera (famous for its Sherry).


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## Mare_nostrvm

*New Vigo-Guixar temporary railway station *

_Click the link to see the video._


Nueva estación de Vigo-Guixar - Adif


----------



## gincan

Timelaps of construction of new railway infrastructure in Barcelona by local Evaristo, he has been shoting photos and compiling timelaps videos from this construction site for 3 years, his flickr site is updated regulary and every 3 or 4 month he posts a timelaps over the construction, this is the latest.

28649612

And more timelapses from this construction can be found here

http://vimeo.com/28649612

Flickr site

http://www.flickr.com/photos/estovadeobras/


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## comotedigounacote

Hello everyone

Greetings from Spain. I wanted to show you a map of the Spanish rail network for those who do not know

The map legend is in Spanish, if you have any questions, let me know [email protected]

Not only the network is the high-speed network, but also conventional.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=es&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftrenecicos.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F09%2F14%2Fnueva-mapa-de-infraestructuras-ferroviarias%2F













I hope you like it !


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## hoosier

Suburbanist said:


> This is interesting: it makes such lines more attractive to active price managment.


Yes, we can never miss an opportunity to price gouge and bilk the customer out of more money.

Profit over people is the mantra of the neoliberal.


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## Suburbanist

hoosier said:


> Yes, we can never miss an opportunity to price gouge and bilk the customer out of more money.
> 
> Profit over people is the mantra of the neoliberal.


Not necessarily. Price driscrimination allows a lot of discount fares for advanced purchase, which benefits costumers.


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## horlick97

Are there any plan to regauge the remaining metre gauge lines in Spain to standard gauge?


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## amagaldu

^^ I think it´s the buzzer for the automatic brake system in case the driver doesn´t operate the controls for a longer period of time..


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## arriaca

Maybe, but I think is the alarm for advise the conductor that he must pulse the "dead man" button. If the conductor don´t pulse this button the automatic brake system will stop the train.


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## Think

Suburbanist said:


> Death man button.


It doesn't refer to the button, it refers to the speaker were the alarm of the "Dead man system" sounds.

The dead man button is the blue one near the main screen.


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## 437.001

This is a curious link I am posting.

This is *MetroValencia*, the Valencia, er... 'metro' system.
It´s called a metro, but its branches outside Valencia city are actually a commuter rail classic network with frequent rail crossings and absolutely classic infrastructure. Besides, large parts of the lines are not even double-tracked!

Here you have *two 3900 EMUs crossing at Almassera station*, on the single-track sector, you can as well spot THREE rail crossings -not to talk about the ones to cross from one platform to the other!

This is the Rafelbunyol branch of line 3.

MetroValencia is *ruled by FGV*, the public Valencian Regional Government rail company. 

Oh, and it´s narrow gauge, metric.


----------



## 437.001

Same line, this time with 4300 EMUs.
Locations: between Alboraya and Almassera.


----------



## 437.001

Now we go to line 1, on the Paterna/Lliria branch.
This is *Les Carolines-Fira station, the way it used to be*, classic rail, double-track, and a 4300 EMU. This station is now underground:


----------



## Vaud

^^ ^^ there's a woman crossing the rails! hno:

the system is similar to métro line 1 of Lausanne, the differences being the lenght of the network, the fact that it runs only in the urban area inside the city, and that we don't use full trains in here but a sort of train-tram, but it's also a single-line with train crossing at most stations with grade-crossings with some streets (albeit few), and still it is also considered as a métro, although it was called TSOL (tramway du sud-ouest lausannois) until the second métro line was opened (which do is a full métro)... this pretty well exemplies how hard it is to define concepts, one existing network has gone from being considered a tramway to a métro without any change in the meanwhile, although in this case it was a matter of just wanting to simplify the network. 

Grade-separation is often considered as the requisite to be considered a métro, but then again what happens with a suburban rail network without grade crossings? Is it also a métro? 

Lenght? No way, the lenght of the suburban rail network of Lausanne might be smaller than the métro lines of some huge cities around the world, so that very much depends on the city size.

Frequencies? Yes, but how do you establish the limit? A maximum of 10 min? why not 9 or 11? 

and so on and so forth... 

so basically, IMHO your example clearly is not a metro due to the grade crossings, but... if that doesn't happen inside the urban area of the main central city, maybe until the trains quit that urban area it can be considered a métro, why not, in most cases the suburban trains would be considered suburban underground trains that cross the city, but why not doing the reverse naming? there's no rule against it


----------



## 437.001

And here are some pics of the 'new' *extension of line 5* of the same network.
It´s still in works, and will run from the current station *Rosas to Riba-roja del Turia*, fllowing the old platform of a former Cercanias Renfe line wich was in iberian gauge, and subsequently is being regauged to metric.

Sadly works on this line have been temporarily suspended due to the crisis.






First station after Rosas will be *La Cova*:






Then next stop will be *La Presa*:






Then next stop will be *Masia de Traver*:






And then the last stop will be *Riba-roja del Turia*:


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## OriK

Vaud said:


> so basically, IMHO your example clearly is not a metro due to the grade crossings, but... if that doesn't happen inside the urban area of the main central city, maybe until the trains quit that urban area it can be considered a métro, why not, in most cases the suburban trains would be considered suburban underground trains that cross the city, but why not doing the reverse naming? there's no rule against it


I've used metrovalencia in Valencia and I think that there it could be considered as metro. When the trains are going to leave the city they "branch" and go to different places (so the frequency is higher in the city).

Outside the city it is more alike a commuter network... with lower freqs. overground, etc...

An example of the urban part of metrovalencia:


----------



## alsama

New railway station Logroño





Net1 said:


> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=808206&page=69


----------



## Mare_nostrvm

*Railways evolution in Spain during the last 50 years..*


----------



## alserrod

Excellent!!!!!


----------



## MarcVD

437.001 said:


> This is a curious link I am posting.
> 
> This is *MetroValencia*, the Valencia, er... 'metro' system.
> It´s called a metro, but its branches outside Valencia city are actually a commuter rail classic network with frequent rail crossings and absolutely classic infrastructure. Besides, large parts of the lines are not even double-tracked!
> 
> Here you have *two 3900 EMUs crossing at Almassera station*, on the single-track sector, you can as well spot THREE rail crossings -not to talk about the ones to cross from one platform to the other!
> 
> This is the Rafelbunyol branch of line 3.
> 
> MetroValencia is *ruled by FGV*, the public Valencian Regional Government rail company.
> 
> Oh, and it´s narrow gauge, metric.


This was one of the lines that were once served by SNCV type S trams
that were sold second-hand by Belgium to Spain. Sold in 1972, used till
1989. Some pictures of those trams in Belgium and Spain on this site :
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=86462542


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## el palmesano

great video!!


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## Patryk

Nuevo station in Logroño is very impressive and modern like always in España :cheers: ¡¡ Feliz Navidad !!


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## Think

^^ "Nuevo" means "new", it's not the name of the station.


----------



## alserrod

Patryk said:


> Nuevo station in Logroño is very impressive and modern like always in España :cheers: ¡¡ Feliz Navidad !!




I think that one important thing about it is that it is very modern and comfortable for traffic (it's underground), passengers and railway, as well as it is made according to traffic that will be in the future.

No great stations with no use. Just nice and modern stations where needed


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## arnau_Vic

thanks for the video mare nostrvm!!


----------



## 437.001

*Snow in Northern Spain 1990*:

In this youtube you can watch the effects of a snow storm in 1990, this is in the Leon-Oviedo-Gijon line, between the stations Busdongo and Villamanin, in the Pajares Pass.

There was an avalanche, the snow got to 7 meters in some places. :naughty:


----------



## solchante

^^thanks


----------



## Gadiri

> *ETCS Level 1 goes live in Madrid​
> 02 March 2012 *
> 
> SPAIN: The Ministry of Development announced on March 1 that *ETCS Level 1 signalling had been brought into use on RENFE suburban route C4 in Madrid, running from Parla in the south via Atocha, Sol and Chamartín to Colmenar Viejo north of the capital*. According to the ministry, this is the *first application of ETCS on a suburban network in Europe*.
> 
> Work to equip *190 km of track*, including the branch to Alcobendas-San Sebastián de los Reyes, has been undertaken by the ministry at a *cost of over €30m. RENFE has spent €23m to install onboard equipment on 112 Civia EMUs*.
> 
> The number of trains operating under ETCS on route C4 is to be increased gradually as staff training is completed. *The adoption of Level 2 is also planned for the Madrid suburban network with the aim of increasing capacity*.


http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/etcs-level-1-goes-live-in-madrid.html


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## Adpg

Goya station:


----------



## OriK

There is another Goya Station in Madrid's Metro


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## KingNick

Gadiri said:


> http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/etcs-level-1-goes-live-in-madrid.html


Wouldn't it be cheaper to install ETCS L2 in the first place?


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## arriaca

^^
the two levels are compatible and share facilities


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## KingNick

arriaca said:


> ^^
> the two levels are compatible and share facilities


I am aware of that fact, but L2 wouldn't need extra signals.


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## OriK

In every railway running ETCS in Spain the Level 1 was introduced before the Level 2. I don't know the reasons but anyway in the case of that railway, signals already exist.


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## solchante

20 years of high speed in Spain


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## sekelsenmat

Hello, I am planning vacations in Spain and I was wondering if anyone here has tips for getting discounts. Searching for the tickets I see that there are the web and Estrela discounts, but when actually going to buy a ticket I see that those discounts appear to be actually quite rate, despite the fact that I am buying 1 month in advance, and there are more discounts for the business class then for the Tourist class. Also for chaper medium distance trains like MD I couldn't see any discounts. I see that a good discount is available for the "Mesa" ticket for 4 persons, but unfortunately we will be mostly travelling in 2 or max 3 persons.

So summing up, anyone has tips or experience how to get cheaper tickets in Spain? =)


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ In Spain, like in Italy, the majority of discount tickets are gone well before 1 month on peak season. The best window will be probably 90-60 days before departure, if nothing seriously changed on Renfe's yield management system which, I must say, is one of the most sophisticated together with the one of Trenitalia.


----------



## alserrod

sekelsenmat said:


> Hello, I am planning vacations in Spain and I was wondering if anyone here has tips for getting discounts. Searching for the tickets I see that there are the web and Estrela discounts, but when actually going to buy a ticket I see that those discounts appear to be actually quite rate, despite the fact that I am buying 1 month in advance, and there are more discounts for the business class then for the Tourist class. Also for chaper medium distance trains like MD I couldn't see any discounts. I see that a good discount is available for the "Mesa" ticket for 4 persons, but unfortunately we will be mostly travelling in 2 or max 3 persons.
> 
> So summing up, anyone has tips or experience how to get cheaper tickets in Spain? =)



Normally tickets are available only two months in advance. They have started to sell tickets four months in advance Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona but for other trains, two months only.

They have different discounts but mainly Web fare = 60% discount and "Estrella fare" = 40% discount. At any time, 25% discount if you have an international boarding pass for a plane and you make a return trip, or 20% for a return ticket at any case.

They put a certain number of tickets for those discounts. It is possible that for a train, all cheapest tickets are gone but there are still discounts in high classes, so maybe a better discount in first class can be have a similar price than a tourist general fare or similar.

In Spanish trains, at bussiness and First class you have the meal included in the ticket as well as other facilities in most of trains.


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## thun

Take the coach. Seriously, it normally is more economic and on a lot of connections (well, Madrid-Barcelona isn't one of those, obviously) faster, too.
The price system of RENFE doesn't follow any rules at all, quite often fares seem to be chosen randomly to the customer. Taking the coach you're usually better off, although it makes sense to book in advantage during peak season and on popular routes, too.
For longer distances, no-frills airlines (Ryanair, Easyjet, Vueling) could make sense, too


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## sekelsenmat

thun said:


> Take the coach. Seriously, it normally is more economic and on a lot of connections (well, Madrid-Barcelona isn't one of those, obviously) faster, too.
> The price system of RENFE doesn't follow any rules at all, quite often fares seem to be chosen randomly to the customer. Taking the coach you're usually better off, although it makes sense to book in advantage during peak season and on popular routes, too.
> For longer distances, no-frills airlines (Ryanair, Easyjet, Vueling) could make sense, too


Yes, I am planing with a lot of care so I know that in most of my trips in Spain taking a bus will be a better solution, but that's the part that sucks. I would prefer traveling by rail but I find the regional rail in Spain chaotic enough that I just can't!

All over Europe I don't remember ever having so much trouble using rail for my trips. Even in my trip to Hungary/Romania I had no trouble at all doing 100% of the trip, from Poland to Lake Balaton, to Budapest, to Alba Julia in Romenia and other places in Romania and back. All had decent train connections many times a day which had nice connections with each other. And it was quite cheap.

In Germany similarly it is excellent to use the rail services. DBahn has a very regular discounts system so I already have a CityNightLine cheap ticket to make Basel->Dresden sleeping as part of my way back to Poland. Also there are very nice discount "Landeskarte" tickets for using regional rail in Germany, BahnKard, etc, etc.

In Portugal too, except for some recently closed lines in the north which I would like to use and for Fatima, everything could be done by rail with many options per day on the routes and fair prices.

But in Spain I am shocked to see that the regional rail lines are either stupidly planned or just plainly a robbery of so expensive. My trips will be like this:

Malaga->Granada
Granada->Cordoba
Cordoba->Sevilla
Sevilla->Lagos (south of Portugal)

Malaga->Granada and Granada->Cordoba share the same problem of horrible conections. Consider these maps:



















The brown line from Granada to Sevilla does not stop in "Fuente de Piedra" despite the map indicating so. So it cannot be used at all to go from Granada to Cordoba! Similarly the line Malaga-Sevilla only stops in Pedrera after Bobadilla. So you have to make a large negative trip to reach Granada, like this: Malaga->Pedrera->Granada which wastes time and increases costs.

Granada->Cordoba at least has 2 times a day a direct train, but it costs 35 euros, a huge amount for mere 180km! The bus costs 13 euros. In Poland a train trip of 180km does not cost more then 9 euros. And I want to go in the afternoon, but their promotional ticket is available only in the morning in this route  For going with cheaper trains there is completely no way at all. The only possible way is Granada->Bobadilla->Cordoba, but it has 5 minutes between changing trains, so if my first train is 5 minutes late and I miss the second one I will be in a tiny town with no way to get to my destination...

Cordoba->Sevilla is very fast and for a fair price so no complains here. This part I can do by rail at least.

Sevilla->south of Portugal. Well, this is doesn't even exist! I hope that they will some day finish up this gap because it is really annoying that there is no rail connection between Huelva and "Vila Real de Santo Antonio" in Portugal =(


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## alserrod

Malaga-Granada can be done with a change of train at Bobadilla. There it arrive five directions of normal trains (not high speed ones, which have a different station).

As an example, you can leave Malaga in the morning (9:42) or evening (18:30) and waiting no more than one hour at Bobadilla to continue through Granada.

But what it is really is that "transversal" relations in Spain are not good... and they assure only "point to point" connections.

From any corner of Andalucia will be easier to go to Madrid than to other corner of Andalucia.

Andalucia-Murcia has the railway close since the 80s

Andalucia-Extremadura has only one train per day

Andalucia-Madrid has one train per hour Sevilla-Madrid, similar with Malaga-Madrid and some Granada-Madrid, Algeciras-Madrid, Cadiz-Madrid and Huelva-Madrid, as well as two daily Malaga-Barcelona and Sevilla-Barcelona entirely by the high speed rail with non-stop at Madrid.

So it is easier to go to Madrid from those cities than between them.
Additional, they operate an "Avant" train Malaga-Cordoba-Sevilla that runs 250 in the high speed line but with regional fares (more expensive than regional ones but cheaper than high speed).

Lines Madrid-Cordoba-Sevilla and Cordoba-Malaga are entirely high speed (different gauge). To go with those trains (Alvia) to Algeciras, Malaga, Huelva, Cadiz, Granada... they have to change gauge at Bobadilla, Sevilla, etc... and continuing by the normal rail.


----------



## thun

Bobadilla is one of the must-sees of Andalusia. :lol: Indeed, the regional services in that part of Andalusia are horrible (I had to wait there for 2 hours or so. All the station has to offer is a soft drink vending machine).

Take the bus from Málaga to Granada to Cordoba! It's not worth the pain to take the train there, believe me. Even if you have to wait "only" one hour in Bobadilla, the trains are painfully slow, too. It doesn't pay off for the better comfort the train has to offer in comparision to the coach.
Cordoba-Sevilla isn't that much of a problem by train (even the medium distance trains (which take about two hours if I remember correctly) are worth to be considered, not only AVE). I don't know about Sevilla-Lagos, but apparently the coach is teh preferred option there, too.

Regarding Portugal: The main corridor (Lisbon-Porto) indeed is well served, it doesn't take longer than by coach. However, lots of coaches travel via Fatima (which I wouln't recommend visiting after having seen it myself. It's rather dull and very weird (I'm Catholic myself, by the way). I'd rather go to Tomar, Batalha or Alcobaca as these places are worth being visited from a historical and artistic point of view. Fatima is a dull 50ies historicism church.


----------



## K_

alserrod said:


> As an example, you can leave Malaga in the morning (9:42) or evening (18:30) and waiting no more than one hour at Bobadilla to continue through Granada.


On hour is to long a wait. I returned from Paris to Bern last night, and my transfer in Basel was 3 minutes. That's the kind of coordination Swiss people are used too.



> Andalucia-Madrid has one train per hour Sevilla-Madrid, similar with Malaga-Madrid and some Granada-Madrid, Algeciras-Madrid, Cadiz-Madrid and Huelva-Madrid, as well as two daily Malaga-Barcelona and Sevilla-Barcelona entirely by the high speed rail with non-stop at Madrid.


And this is where RENFE fails... They run very nice trains, but they don't run a railway network.

They run a train every hour from Sevilla to Madrid, and frequent trains from Cadiz to Sevilla, but this does not yield many useful connections as the timetables are not coordinated. They make up for that by offering a few direct trains Cadiz - Madrid that are hardly faster than the fastest possible connection involving a change in Sevilla. However, there are also two Cadiz - Sevilla trains that arrive in Sevilla three minutes after the AVE to Madrid has left... 
If they coordinated the times of the Cadiz - Sevilla trains better with the Sevilla - Madrid trains they could offer 4:20 trip times on Cadiz - Madrid almost every hour.

By coordinating the services on the different lines the value of you service increases dramatically, without the railway incurring that much in extra costs. That is something even SNCF now understands. When will RENFE?


----------



## alserrod

K_ said:


> By coordinating the services on the different lines the value of you service increases dramatically, without the railway incurring that much in extra costs. That is something even SNCF now understands. When will RENFE?




It can be the thread most written in the Spanish forum... so as you can think, no forumers have answer to that but too many questions and proposals.

In my city, at least, they have coordinated two different services. There is a little commuter train that shuttles six stations. And there are several regional trains, between 3 to 6 per line. Those trains stops in several stations within the city.

Since this month they allow to take those trains with a commuter ticket. That means that, with the same number of trains they give more frequencies for commuter service. So it is easier to take it (sometimes one train per hour, some times every 15 minutes) and people is starting to take it.

More services to passengers, more passengers on trains.


At least it is a change...


----------



## joinmanzano

sekelsenmat said:


>


These are the old lines


----------



## 437.001

*BREAKING NEWS!!!!*

Feve, the state-owned railway company that runs the biggest metric-gauge railway network in Europe, that is, in Northern Spain (the Atlantic coast), plus a small commuter line in Cartagena, becomes a part of Renfe.

*Feve becomes a part of Renfe*.

Keep an eye on that, you trainspotters, something could happen.
Just in case, I recommend any of you to get to travel to these lines, especially the marvellous Bilbao to Leon via Cistierna route, and the Atlantic coastal line from Bilbao to Ferrol.


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## Suburbanist

^^ That shouldn't be allowed. It creates a monopoly in the area.


----------



## alserrod

There is a monopoly at all. This is, a trip A to B can be run only on a line and it doesn't matter the name of the company.

The only difference is that there were difference rails and journeys, not anything else.

In the surroundings of Bilbao, San Sebastian, Valencia, Alicante, Oviedo and Barcelona there are lines of other companies rather than RENFE and there are no concurrence. If you want to go A to X, you may take RENFE and no other option. If you want to go A to Y, the other company, and RENFE serves nothing there.


At Spain there is a little concurrence in freight (it is free concurrence but few services of other companies different than Renfe). We will have to wait for concurrence on passengers.


----------



## OriK

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ That shouldn't be allowed. It creates a monopoly in the area.


It's already a monopoly as both companies (FEVE and Renfe operadora) are owned by the central government.

If 437.001 is right, the government is just merging them probably to save money.

FEVE stands for FErrocarriles de Vía Estrecha (Narrow Gauge Railways) and it opperates all the State owned narrow gauge railways (usually metric gauge). While Renfe operates the standard and iberian gauge railways.

There are no private passenger rail services in Spain yet (at least not major ones). There are some other operators owned by autonomic governments like FGC or FGV that coexist with Renfe.


----------



## alserrod

But those other operators drive on specific lines. In the case of FGC and FGV, narrow gauge for example. This is, suburbs of Barcelona and Valencia... if Spanish gauge only Renfe, if narrow gauge, only FGC or FGV.

No concurrence at all


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ That shouldn't be allowed. It creates a monopoly in the area.


Everytime you move your fingers to try and post something here on SSC, bread goes more expensive and God murders three kittens...

You deserve that someone pats you on the back, your posts show an incredible knowledge of how railway works... well, no they don´t.


----------



## 437.001

OriK said:


> It's already a monopoly as both companies (FEVE and Renfe operadora) are owned by the central government.
> 
> If 437.001 is right, the government is just merging them probably to save money.


I am right, it has been confirmed by the Government and by our inner sources in Renfe. And yes they´re merging them to save money... and to finish something odd that has lasted since the creation of the national Spanish railways in 1941: the existence of two state-owned railway companies, one for the broad gauge and another for the narrow gauge.



> FEVE stands for FErrocarriles de Vía Estrecha (Narrow Gauge Railways) and it opperates all the State owned narrow gauge railways (usually metric gauge).


Nowadays only metric gauge. 
In the past though, it has operated lines which had even narrower gauges, but also standard gauge.



> While Renfe operates the standard and iberian gauge railways.


Well, not completely true either, Renfe has operated since its creation a metric gauge line in suburban Madrid, and still does.



> There are no private passenger rail services in Spain yet (at least not major ones).


There aren´t any yet. 



> There are some other operators owned by autonomic governments like FGC or FGV that coexist with Renfe.


Coexistence is not the exact word as they don´t operate the same network, with only one exception in the case of a particular freight train in suburban Barcelona.

The non-Renfe-nor-Feve regional companies are:

-FGC: commuter trains plus some freight, and two rack railways and some cable cars in suburban Barcelona (one of the rack railways is actually in the Pyrenees, though you get there by commuter train).

-FGV: commuter half-metro-like trains, plus a couple tramway lines in suburban Valencia, plus a tram-train network in Alicante and the Costa Blanca.

-Euskotren: commuter trains in the Basque Country, reaching Hendaye in the French side of the Basque Country. Plus the tramways in Bilbao and Vitoria and a cable car. And some freight too.

-SFM: commuter trains in Majorca.


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ That shouldn't be allowed. It creates a monopoly in the area.




There is a mandatory regulation by EU that will apply to free concurrence... but at least several years to see a new operator at Spain for passenger (I think there are seven for freight).

The ADIF web page is prepared to indicate the name of the operator of every train. Obviously, today all of them are Renfe... but at least they are ready for the change.

International trains Portugal to Spain are served by Renfe and CP together.
International trains Spain to Italy, Switzerland and France are served by a company managed by several companies.


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## Oponopono

alserrod said:


> International trains Portugal to Spain are served by Renfe and CP together.


That is true for the Madrid-Lisboa Trenhotel which is jointly operated by CP and RENFE. They both split costs and revenues.

The Sud Express is a different thing. It is CP's in full. CP leases the train and contracts the traction in Spain, operational and commercial support with RENFE. CP supports all costs and keeps the entire revenue, paying RENFE for the services it provides.




alserrod said:


> International trains Spain to Italy, Switzerland and France are served by a company managed by several companies.


Elipsos? Not several companies. It's 50/50 RENFE and SNCF.


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## alserrod

Oponopono said:


> Elipsos? Not several companies. It's 50/50 RENFE and SNCF.



Thrue!!, and they pay Italian and Swiss network because its use.

There are a daily Madrid-Paris, Barcelona-Paris and a three times per week Barcelona-Zurich/Milano. They go together until Lyon and they separate both branches.

One day they make a mistake and branch to Zurich went to Milano and upside down. They took notice of the mistake several hours later. As far as I know, branch to Zurich stopped and run back to Lyon to get the Zurich direction but the Milano branch had run far away and fastest way was by S.Bernardo tunel.


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## sekelsenmat

Despite the problems I ended up doing Malaga->Granada via rail with an exchange of train in Bobadilla and it was quite worth it for the experience. The view between Malaga and Bobadilla is beaultiful and in the final part it goes through some amazing rock formations over high bridges and tunnels making for a great view, unlike anything I had seen before, which I think is the "Valle de Abdalajís" south of Bobadilla:



















The trains were very full. And in the train Algeciras->Granada people had to stand after the stop at Antequera. I noted a social difference between the trains and buses in Spain. The regional train Malaga->Sevilla had a lot of middle class people with children with their iPods and iPhones and Algeciras->Granada had a lot of spanish students. The buses had mostly old spaniards, immigrants (mostly muslims) and tourists. I didn't see anyone from the spanish middle class there.

Both trains were diesen and were basically identical but the one doing Malaga->Sevilla had a terrible engine noise with grave sounds. No idea why it had such an annoying sound but I really valued electric trains in this moment.

The 40 minutes waiting in Bobadilla were quite nice. The station has a free and very clean toilet and a vending machine with many options, so it wasn't so bad.

Another thing worth mentioning is the Malaga rail station. It is inside a large shopping center and I had to put my bags through X-ray scanners there. I haven't seen anything like that before. It was probably put in place after the Al Qaeda attacks, I suppose.


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## OriK

^^ You can tell Renfe about the noise telling them the hour, day and destination of the train via Twitter (https://twitter.com/#!/Renfe), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/Renfe/) or via their webpage (http://www.renfe.com/EN/empresa/atencion_cliente.html).

I hope they will be able to understand you in simple English, but if you know Spanish it would be much better...

If nobody complains they hardly ever put attention on those things...


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## K_

sekelsenmat said:


> Another thing worth mentioning is the Malaga rail station. It is inside a large shopping center and I had to put my bags through X-ray scanners there. I haven't seen anything like that before. It was probably put in place after the Al Qaeda attacks, I suppose.



RENFE already scanned luggage on long distance trains before the Madrid attacks. Even though those attacks demonstrated how pointless this is, they keep doing it...


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## alserrod

sekelsenmat said:


> Another thing worth mentioning is the Malaga rail station. It is inside a large shopping center and I had to put my bags through X-ray scanners there. I haven't seen anything like that before. It was probably put in place after the Al Qaeda attacks, I suppose.




They are being used in almost all stations with high speed services, but not all, and due to it is known they are not as effective as in planes, not controlled by police (and not reported) and in fact they only check if you have a weapon in your luggage (but you can carry in your handbag and nothing happens)... they are thinking in removing them.

This "service?" started about 2003. New stations since then are ready to have it but old ones had to be addapted (and sometimes the space is minimum).

I think it is the worst valorated service by passengers.


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## OriK

^^ yes... I hate it... when a friend turned 18 we gifted him an inflatable doll as a joke and we had to take the train back home (as in Atocha some regional trains also used to be in that terminal) and he was really embarrassed at the control because obviously they saw what he was carrying (luckily they didn't say anything)...


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## arctic_carlos

K_ said:


> RENFE already scanned luggage on long distance trains before the Madrid attacks. Even though those attacks demonstrated how pointless this is, they keep doing it...


Yes, I don't understand why Renfe use them, it doesn't make sense to justify X-ray scanners because of terrorist attacks such as the ones in 2004 when those attacks took place in suburban trains and the scanners are only required to take long distance and sometimes regional trains. Currently you can board a train like the ones that suffered the attacks without passing your luggage through X-ray scanners (it would be impossible to use them in that kind of lines since they are heavily used with lots of stations, trains and users).

Moreover, long distance trains often also stop in stations in which there are no X-ray scanners, since only main stations have them.


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## alserrod

In fact... I think they only use as an excuse to check that everybody entering the boarding area has ticket (rest of people should remain out).

And... with the similar price, they put a scanner... At the beginning a little of "high level image". Almost ten years later, most of passengers do not understand any advantage of that system, even when it is known that you can cross the scanner with what-you-want, and not all stations have it, so you can take a train with anything on board.


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## Xoser_barcelona

alserrod said:


> At the beginning a little of "high level image". ...


The airlines do it so if we want to compete with them, we also need to do it. It sucks if you want to drop of your 80-year old mum though (say BCN Sants) and need to get a platform ticket so the poor woman does not have to drag her suitcase herself.


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## alserrod

And... no images are controlled by police. There is not a list of goods you cannot enter in the boarding area. Depending of transfers you make, it is possible to avoid those checks (they are not in all stations) and... it is easier to attack a train from the country than from inside the train... apart that a knidnapping is almost impossible (should they make a knidnapping it will be as easy as cut off energy on wires and will stop inmediately).

I find no interest on them...


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## OriK

Furthermore I think that is stupid when they check your ticket in the station for being able to access the platform... I can understand it in commuter and metro networks (with barriers) because there aren't inspectors in each train and it's easier to travel without a valid ticket (thus I'd prefer more inspectors rather than barriers)... but for medium-long distance trains? it's stupid! why I'm not able to say goodbye from the platform... or help a friend or a relative with its luggage until the door of the train?


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## K_

OriK said:


> Furthermore I think that is stupid when they check your ticket in the station for being able to access the platform... I can understand it in commuter and metro networks (with barriers) because there aren't inspectors in each train and it's easier to travel without a valid ticket (thus I'd prefer more inspectors rather than barriers)... but for medium-long distance trains? it's stupid! why I'm not able to say goodbye from the platform... or help a friend or a relative with its luggage until the door of the train?


Many commuter and metro networks do fine without barriers. And on the Dutch network, which is introducing barriers, going to the platform to say goodbye without having to buy a separate platform ticket will still be possible.

However, special "platform" tickets for people who wanted to see off people have been common on most European networks at one time or another. Didn't know Spain still had them. Must be an exception by now.


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## alserrod

OriK said:


> Furthermore I think that is stupid when they check your ticket in the station for being able to access the platform... I can understand it in commuter and metro networks (with barriers) because there aren't inspectors in each train and it's easier to travel without a valid ticket (thus I'd prefer more inspectors rather than barriers)... but for medium-long distance trains? it's stupid! why I'm not able to say goodbye from the platform... or help a friend or a relative with its luggage until the door of the train?




Checking the ticket before entering the platform replaces the inside train checking.

There is a conductor in every train and, in the stations with a check-in, he receives the list of tickets checked... so he do not ask for ticket there.

Furthermore, it is a system that helps to gain punctuality. It was set in Madrid-Sevilla in 1992. You must cross the check-in at least two minutes in advance (do not run in the last minute because if it is closed, doesn't matter if it hasn't gone still... you stay out of the platform).

Being sure everybody crosses the check-in two minutes in advance they can assure they will refund 100% in case of FIVE MINUTES DELAY in any train Madrid-Sevilla (other lines it is twenty minutes)


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## K_

alserrod said:


> Checking the ticket before entering the platform replaces the inside train checking.
> 
> There is a conductor in every train and, in the stations with a check-in, he receives the list of tickets checked... so he do not ask for ticket there.
> 
> Furthermore, it is a system that helps to gain punctuality. It was set in Madrid-Sevilla in 1992. You must cross the check-in at least two minutes in advance (do not run in the last minute because if it is closed, doesn't matter if it hasn't gone still... you stay out of the platform).
> 
> Being sure everybody crosses the check-in two minutes in advance they can assure they will refund 100% in case of FIVE MINUTES DELAY in any train Madrid-Sevilla (other lines it is twenty minutes)


But these check ins require people to pass through a limited number of check points. That makes it impossible to have open stations designs (like Zürich, where platforms have something like 9 entrances each). And how does RENFE deal with people wanting to connecting with a train on the same, or the opposite platform?


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## OriK

^^ connections are a pain in Spain... this is a minor problem if you check the schedules as routes are plannified as point-to-point instead of planning connections... it is another point to improve as of course it is impossible to make routes from everywhere to everywhere... so if you need a connection it isn't uncommon having to wait a looong time for your new train.

In addition... in some cases it would be not that hard to improve the frequencies in some routes scheduling some connections instead of only direct routes...


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## alserrod

1- Most of main stations have separated departures and arrivals lounges. In my city, eastern zone is departure, western zone is arrival. When you arrive to the train you can decide to get an exit in the middle of the platform to go to parking or going west

Baggage scanners could be erased but check-ins help for punctuality. No people on platform two minutes in advance of departure... and train arrives on time (five minutes delay in Sevilla line = 100% refund)


2- Connections are going to change drastically on 17th June... we can talk about it.


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## OriK

What are they going to improve on 17th of June?

Anyway with the platform thing you would get the same effect telling people that the doors of the trains close 2 mins before departure... instead of the whole platform... and I'd see it stupid anyway as I think 30 seconds/1min should be enough for allowing the last passengers boarding in to find their seats.

It would be easier for everybody!


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## Suburbanist

OriK said:


> What are they going to improve on 17th of June?
> 
> Anyway with the platform thing you would get the same effect telling people that the doors of the trains close 2 mins before departure... instead of the whole platform... and I'd see it stupid anyway as I think 30 seconds/1min should be enough for allowing the last passengers boarding in to find their seats.
> 
> It would be easier for everybody!


I think that would leave many angry costumers thinking the fault is on the railway not to open the doors while the train is still standing, instead of them arriving late.

They could even just push back the published timetable time for 2 minutes before actual departure on every station, but people would easily figure the train stays idling for 2 minutes past doors closing and one day they might end there "demanding" the train operator opens the barely closed doors.

I wish Netherlands had a similar system.

It is also good to deter non-passengers from accessing the platforms. Platforms should be like airport gates: only ticketed people could gains access. Not an extension of the street whatsoever as K_ suggested. Or as some sort of shortcut for even non-travel related foot traffic.


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## alserrod

they are going to improve ASSURED CONNECTIONS.

The first journey to have them in the web was Madrid-Cadiz. Now they have three direct trains. After 17th June they will have another direct train (four trains daily) and... it will be possible to take an AVE Madrid - Sevilla and connection (10 minutes for train change only) to a regional train Sevilla-Cadiz in the same ticket. Four connections daily.

So Madrid-Cadiz will pass having only three trains to have four ones direct and four ones with connection.

Time and price with or without connection is very similar... and eight possibilities everyday to make the journey.

Furthermore, Madrid-Logroño keeps one train direct but someone more with connection in Zaragoza (up to four daily, direct or connections).
Barcelona-Vigo changes to Barcelona-Vigo and Barcelona-La Coruña (one out of two days to each destination) but you will be able to shuttle to Vigo-Irun or La Coruña-Irun and connection assured.

There will be (not available on web yet) a Bilbao-Zaragoza and Zaragoza-Valencia with assured connection


And... someones more.

Renfe has noticed that they are carrying empty trains sometimes and they are usually very punctual. So if they change a little the timetables they can assure without any problem the connections.

Same number of trains on rails, more passengers!!!!!!


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## K_

alserrod said:


> No people on platform two minutes in advance of departure... and train arrives on time (five minutes delay in Sevilla line = 100% refund)


Many railways manage to run on time without these restrictions...


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## K_

alserrod said:


> The first journey to have them in the web was Madrid-Cadiz. Now they have three direct trains. After 17th June they will have another direct train (four trains daily) and... it will be possible to take an AVE Madrid - Sevilla and connection (10 minutes for train change only) to a regional train Sevilla-Cadiz in the same ticket. Four connections daily.
> 
> So Madrid-Cadiz will pass having only three trains to have four ones direct and four ones with connection.
> 
> Time and price with or without connection is very similar... and eight possibilities everyday to make the journey.


That is good news. A huge improvement. This is a way to generate more income without having extra costs.
But what RENFE also needs is a better online trip planner.
Go to www.bahn.de and look up Girona - Madrid. Now do the same on the RENFE site...


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> I wish Netherlands had a similar system.
> 
> It is also good to deter non-passengers from accessing the platforms. Platforms should be like airport gates: only ticketed people could gains access. Not an extension of the street whatsoever as K_ suggested. Or as some sort of shortcut for even non-travel related foot traffic.


In other words: You are against making rail as useful as possible?

Sometimes I wonder how you live with all the contradictions. You want rail to be more commercial, more for profit. But every time someone suggests something that would increase the value to the customer without increasing the cost to the operator (something any greedy capitalist would be in favor of) you are against it...
I don't get it.


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## alserrod

K_ said:


> That is good news. A huge improvement. This is a way to generate more income without having extra costs.
> But what RENFE also needs is a better online trip planner.
> Go to www.bahn.de and look up Girona - Madrid. Now do the same on the RENFE site...




Try to have a look in its webpage (www.renfe.es) the timetables Madrid-Cadiz. I have checked they are available also in the English version. Ask for trains for today and for, i.e., June 20th... and you will see the difference
"Con enlace" means "with connection". Clicking on every train in the left will open a new window with all the journey and stops. If a connection train they tell you both trains.

Today there are some connection trains, not too much... but they are. As an example, Salamanca-Zaragoza (where I live) and connection to Barcelona.
you can buy a Salamanca-Barcelona and you will travel to Zaragoza in one train, getting off there and taking a Madrid-Barcelona AVE at Zaragoza with the same ticket.

If train is delayed, Renfe sets you in the next AVE to Barcelona (more than one per hour)
If AVE is delayed (more than 99% punctuality), the train to Salamanca will wait for passengers until they arrive.

This train will dissappear on 17th June and will start a Barcelona-Valladolid (until Medina del campo it is a wireled line and until Salamanca only Diesel trains can arrive). They will connect with a regional train Valladolid-Salamanca to make possible the journey Barcelona-Salamanca. Furthermore, the new train is more confortable than current one.


In the Spanish threads we are terribly suprised because too many changes in just some months...


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## OriK

^^ I think K_ means that Renfe webpage sucks and I agree.

Try to look for Girona-Madrid in renfe webpage and it only will appear the night direct connection... try the same in Bahn.de and you will be able to see much more possibilities with a connection in Barcelona... the connections are not guaranteed but having that amount of daily trains between Barcelona and Madrid is not that bad...

But nice to know that they are trying! 

And Suburbanist... I love the Dutch system (I'm currently living in The Netherlands so I know it), with a lot of scheduled connections in which you only have to cross the platform because both trains arrive at the same time... it is very confortable... it is absurd making platforms similar to airport gates because you loose all the flexibility that the train provides... and when you pass the airport control (at least in domestic flights) you are able to access all the gates even if you are arriving... of course they check you again when you are boarding the plane (linke the inspector does when you board the train, but in trains this can also be more flexible) but it wouldn't be the first time that a person takes another plane by mistake...


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## alserrod

for a while, they let you to ask for no direct connections. You asked for a timetable and, if direct train, appeared and if do not, they offered you to ask for information of connections (even if not assured except if 60 minutes between trains!!).

Later they offered only the service if no direct trains. I remember that once I wanted to ask for a connection, instead of asking for a train from my city, I asked from a near city which I knew that connection was required.

Now... no possibilities except if assured connections


Renfe web page really has to improve but seeing what they have done in the last month... let's think they can keep on...


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## alserrod

And... I recommend do not taking the Port Bou (French border)-Gerona-Madrid train except if no other timetables. I think it is the worst train running today in Spain... and they are waiting to finish the line until Gerona to replace it.

If you take a Paris/Geneve-Figueras train you can connect to a train (in the same platform) to Barcelona and there, take a train anywhere.

It is a platform in Figueres with... two different gauges!!!, one for SNCF trains that come from Paris and Geneve, other one for Renfe trains. Today, only from Barcelona but it is ready to change gauge and accept trains from anywhere.
(old Figueres station, with stops in most town is 500m away and keeps on service too)


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## Suburbanist

There are many positives aspects to sealing off platforms. And many ways to seal platforms.

For instance: it is possible to create a whole "paid area" behind an access hall that accepts only passengers that scanned their tickets (or checked in their RFID passes/cards/tickets). You cross-platform transfer is not entirely lost: you just put secondary gates. and divide platforms serving 2 tracks with a glass panel between the gates.

This way you can:

(1) improve punctuality, especially in countries like Spain where mad-dash runs to departing trains are common

(2) prevent the presence of non-passengers in platforms, where they don't have any business being. This facilitates tracking down eventual criminals caught on camera as they can put cameras on the check-in/entrance gates.

(3) allow passage of very high-speed trains through stations without slowdown

(4) reduces injuries from people falling off onto the tracks (something that killed 8 in Spain south of Barcelona 2 years ago in a single accident!!!!!)

(5) discourage people going to a station just to hang out or do unproductive uses of them which increases cleaning and maintenance costs

(6) reduces fare evasion


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## Frank IBC

Suburbanist said:


> There are many positives aspects to sealing off platforms. And many ways to seal platforms.
> 
> This way you can:
> 
> (1) improve punctuality, especially in countries like Spain where mad-dash runs to departing trains are common.


Or you could just put a pillbox, and shoot all the tardy Mediterraneans.



Suburbanist said:


> (3) allow passage of very high-speed trains through stations without slowdown


But seriously, you sound confused. There are two different issues here - restricting entry to the platforms from outside, and separating the platforms from the tracks - completely different issues.



Suburbanist said:


> (4) reduces injuries from people falling off onto the tracks (something that killed 8 in Spain south of Barcelona 2 years ago in a single accident!!!!!)


People did not "fall onto the tracks" in the Castelldefels incident. They crossed the tracks on foot because the subways were poorly indicated, the platforms low, and because the station was jammed with passengers. More importantly, these were ARRIVING passengers, not DEPARTING passengers. Restricting entrance to the platforms would have done NOTHING. Better signage and a fence in the middle of the tracks would have helped.



Suburbanist said:


> (2) prevent the presence of non-passengers in platforms, where they don't have any business being. This facilitates tracking down eventual criminals caught on camera as they can put cameras on the check-in/entrance gates.
> 
> (5) discourage people going to a station just to hang out or do unproductive uses of them which increases cleaning and maintenance costs.


How many criminals do you anticipate catching loitering on these station cameras?


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## Suburbanist

Frank IBC said:


> How many criminals do you anticipate catching loitering on these station cameras?


It could discourage pickpocketing, rowdy teenagers, drug dealers, people trying to hustle second-hand tickets and God know how many other filthy elements of society the law-abading majority would rather have out of sight.


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## Frank IBC

Suburbanist said:


> It could discourage pickpocketing, rowdy teenagers, drug dealers, people trying to hustle second-hand tickets and God know how many other filthy elements of society the law-ab_ding majority would rather have out of sight._


_

"Hell is other people."

- Jean-Paul Sartre_


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> It could discourage pickpocketing, rowdy teenagers, drug dealers, people trying to hustle second-hand tickets and God know how many other filthy elements of society the law-abading majority would rather have out of sight.


You don't like people, do you?

Many railway actually like it when people come to their stations. It is to the advantage of the railway company when a railway station becomes a lively place that functions as the anchor of a city. Where I live the station is where youngsters meet up to go out for example. It's a place where I go shopping. 
It's exactly by making the station a "social" place that some countries are now seeing the rise of the "transit generation". A generation of young people so used to organizing their lives around public transit that they don't even bother getting a driving license anymore. And this is good news for the railway, as these transit orientated youngsters will provide them with an income stream that can last for decades.

You don't get this by turning a station in to something like an airport.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> There are many positives aspects to sealing off platforms. And many ways to seal platforms.


There are also many negative aspects. Are you aware of the concept of balancing positive and negative aspects?

You want many entrances to a station, so that passengers have a short route to their train regardless from which direction they are coming to the station. 
That's called "being customer orientated".


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## K_

Frank IBC said:


> People did not "fall onto the tracks" in the Castelldefels incident. They crossed the tracks on foot because the subways were poorly indicated, the platforms low, and because the station was jammed with passengers. More importantly, these were ARRIVING passengers, not DEPARTING passengers. Restricting entrance to the platforms would have done NOTHING. Better signage and a fence in the middle of the tracks would have helped.


Has anything been done in the mean time? A fence would have been easy to implement.


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## 437.001

Indeed. They´ve never cared. The funny about it is that they´ve only just started to behave as a railway company should... just when they´re about to be privatized.

Did anyone say 'mockery'? :|


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## Neb81

437.001 said:


> Indeed. They´ve never cared. The funny about it is that they´ve only just started to behave as a railway company should... just when they´re about to be privatized.
> 
> Did anyone say 'mockery'? :|


Is RENFE actually going to be privatised, or sectorised (a la BR in the NSE/Intercity/Regional Railways days?)

For rail privatisation, you really don't need to look any further than the UK to see how spectacularly sucessful it can be. The PP just want to have a great big fire-sale of state assets to make Merkel happy and to pretend everything will be OK. The end result will be the gov't winding up having to either accept a huge fall off in services (both in quality of service a well as extent and frequency) or having to stump up a lot more money to get the same level of service they get now, just with higher fares and a lot more complexity.

I'm not saying RENFE doesn't have inefficiencies, because it definitely does, though the government itself should accept part of the blame for going gaga over some AVE plans that were clearly unviable and pouring funding into them whilst starving ADIF, FEVE and RENFE of funds for conventional services. All of these issues are solvable far more quickly and far more easily by reform of ADIF-RENFE within the existing organisational structure of two state owned enterprises. Privatisation will only exacerabte problems and introduce whole new layers of structual inefficiencies and complexities just as it has in the UK.


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## alserrod

ADIF will remain public at all. They will take care of infrastructure, including stations, rails, etc...

Renfe is a public entreprise but operates according to EU laws. For instance cannot receive aids for long distance trains.

In Freight there are seven different companies where Renfe is just one (the major) of them.
In Passengers it is alone. But it is stimated to have, at least, concurrence in several years. Later it will come to be private.


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## Think

Neb81 said:


> Is RENFE actually going to be privatised, or sectorised (a la BR in the NSE/Intercity/Regional Railways days?)


In a internal way it is completly sectorised so many years ago. Long distance, regionals, etc... are like independent companies. For example, a freight driver can never drive a passenger train.


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## Neb81

alserrod said:


> ADIF will remain public at all. They will take care of infrastructure, including stations, rails, etc...
> 
> Renfe is a public entreprise but operates according to EU laws. For instance cannot receive aids for long distance trains.
> 
> In Freight there are seven different companies where Renfe is just one (the major) of them.
> In Passengers it is alone. But it is stimated to have, at least, concurrence in several years. Later it will come to be private.


Is there an official reason for long-term privatisation? 

I'm guessing the prohibition of subsidies for long-distance routes might be one reason why the gov't is keen to hand Cercanias/Rodiales over to the regional governments. Without them, RENFE gets left with the Grandes Líneas and some of the Regionales, which helps push it toward privatisation, since it can't get subsidies for them. 

it all seems depressingly familiar hno:


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## alserrod

Reason?. Latest date allowed by EU as far as I know.

Long distance do not have public aids, as ordered EU.
Regional and commuter trains have... but a lot of times they are given by regional governments, not national ones.

There are journeys where the difference between regional and long distance train is zero.


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## Neb81

Think said:


> In a internal way it is completly sectorised so many years ago. Long distance, regionals, etc... are like independent companies. For example, a freight driver can never drive a passenger train.


I wondered if that was the case. Must admit I like the way the current "branding" works for Cercanias, Regionales and AVE*, and I guessed that it reflected some internal sector focus as well. 

* The "but": The proliferation of brands for the longer routes is just plain confusing (Altaria, Alaris, Alvia, Avant, Arco, WTF...) and could use consolidation into a single more concrete long-distance non-AVE brand.


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## Suburbanist

There is one difference between requiring de-verticalization (separation of infrastructure and operations, as EU directives require) and requiring privatization.

Nowhere EU requires privatization of train services, only that non-commuter, non-local/metropolitan operations are open to competition and that the train operators follow a private enterprise structure. Even if they can, still and by all mean, by 100% state-owned.


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## OriK

alserrod said:


> Reason?. Latest date allowed by EU as far as I know.


Renfe being public or private is a issue that only competes to the Spanish government if it allows competence (and the system is almost ready for allowing private competence for passengers, there are some private companies that already operates freight trains).

There were whispering about its privatization but I didn't hear anything again so for the moment it will remain public.


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## alserrod

Neb81 said:


> I wondered if that was the case. Must admit I like the way the current "branding" works for Cercanias, Regionales and AVE*, and I guessed that it reflected some internal sector focus as well.
> 
> * The "but": The proliferation of brands for the longer routes is just plain confusing (Altaria, Alaris, Alvia, Avant, Arco, WTF...) and could use consolidation into a single more concrete long-distance non-AVE brand.




For long distance, they are standarising all few names

AVE for long distance full high speed line
Alvia for long distance partially on high speed line
Avant is a medium distance or regional train, but operates in the high speed line

The other ones:

Alaris do not exist anymore. It was the Madrid-Valencia before high speed
Arco... I think is called only the train between Galicia and Basque country. Other ones replaced (If I'm not wrong)
Altaria. Madrid-Murcia-Cartagena and... do not know why but Madrid-Granada and Madrid-Algeciras, even if partially by high speed line (to Granada almost all), they use that name.


Diurno and Talgo as train names are not further used

Intercity was used as a long distance train and now to a regional one with a long distance journey. They have joined sometimes two trains in only one with a long journey. Point to point is called intercity (but remains the same regional...)


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## Neb81

OriK said:


> There were whispering about its privatization but I didn't hear anything again so for the moment it will remain public.


Fingers crossed. I have a lot of respect for the Spanish rail system. Loads of good experiences - great value and good service on the Altarias ALC-MAD and Euromeds on ALC-BCN - and would hate to see it wind up like what we have over here (UK). 

Miss the old Talgo IIIs that used to do the ALC-MAD run too, kind of like Spain's answer to the Silberlings, only with more cool and weird :lol:


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## 437.001

Neb81 said:


> Fingers crossed. I have a lot of respect for the Spanish rail system. Loads of good experiences - great value and good service on the Altarias ALC-MAD and Euromeds on ALC-BCN - and would hate to see it wind up like what we have over here (UK).


Anmyway, in that particular route (Alicante-Madrid), this will never happen, since the HSL Albacete-Alicante is about to open. It´s really very advanced.
It would be open by now, were it not for the crisis. 



> Miss the old Talgo IIIs that used to do the ALC-MAD run too, kind of like Spain's answer to the Silberlings, only with more cool and weird :lol:


Oops, I loved the old Talgo III, but they were more than coming of age! :lol:


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## K_

Neb81 said:


> Loads of good experiences - great value and good service on the Altarias ALC-MAD and Euromeds on ALC-BCN - and would hate to see it wind up like what we have over here (UK).


There are a lot of things that the UK has that I Spain doesn't have. An online trip planner for example. Being able to buy tickets between any pair of station. Having more than one train per day...


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## K_

Neb81 said:


> For rail privatisation, you really don't need to look any further than the UK to see how spectacularly sucessful it can be.


Indeed. I would call a doubling of trains services and passenger numbers quite spectacular. The only other country in Europe that comes close is Switzerland.


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## alserrod

When Talgo III made its last trip one thread was opened and a lot of photos posted!!


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## Neb81

I don't want to thread-jack, so this can be discussed elsewhere, and no doubt has been, at considerable length. Suffice to say that even the people responsible for the privatization (i.e. the Tories) admit that the results have been less than stellar, to say the very least.


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## 437.001

Neb81 said:


> I don't want to thread-jack, so this can be discussed elsewhere, and no doubt has been, at considerable length. Suffice to say that even the people responsible for the privatization (i.e. the Tories) admit that the results have been less than stellar, to say the very least.


S´alright, you´re not threadjacking. 

I know that even the Tories admit the privatization has been less than stellar.

But that´s more about the infrastructure, which is true that for some time was a mess. But that is solved now, isn´t it? Look at Crossrail, the electrification programme and other stuff...

But... on the other hand, you look at the numbers of railway passengers and freight trains, and they´re the highest in the UK since... well, many many years.

I seriously doubt that in Spain a private company could do worse than Renfe.

And the infrastructure remains under public control, so no problem about it (that was a lesson the UK gave to the continent about what not to do).


----------



## Neb81

437.001 said:


> S´alright, you´re not threadjacking.
> 
> 
> I know that even the Tories admit the privatization has been less than stellar.
> 
> But that´s more about the infrastructure, which is true that for some time was a mess. But that is solved now, isn´t it? Look at Crossrail, the electrification programme and other stuff...
> 
> But... on the other hand, you look at the numbers of railway passengers and freight trains, and they´re the highest in the UK since... well, many many years.
> 
> I seriously doubt that in Spain a private company could do worse than Renfe.
> 
> And the infrastructure remains under public control, so no problem about it (that was a lesson the UK gave to the continent about what not to do).


true, but maybe I am now 

The Tories don't defend it even now, so even they clearly think that not did privatisation fail, but that it continues to - since they have a clear interest in trying to present a positive case, even if it is only in very marginal and very delayed results.

The electrification programme is funded by the state, so I don't see how we can attribute it to privatisation, though I wouldn't deny it's a most welcome upgrade!

The increase in number of passengers is largely due to demographic changes rather than the juicy goodness of Richard Branson. During the 2000s, large numbers of admin jobs were created by the financial boom in London, which led to a lot of new commuters. At the other end of the economic scale, fewer people - particularly young people - could afford to run cars and so were forced onto public transport. Throughout the same period, BA and BMI started pulling out of a lot of domestic air routes, and APD pushed up domestic air fares, making flying less attractive than it was in the past.

The increase in the number of service is primarily due to operators running shorter trains, using the same old rolling stock for more services on the most popular routes without actually having to spend any money, simply by suqashing more people into fewer carriages. Even with that, a lot of provincial routes have seen no new services, or even reductions. Liverpool to Manchester Airport is still 1xhourly two-car DMU from the BR era as is Liverpool-Preston-Blackpool. Birmingham-Hereford is just a bad joke. 
_
At the same time, the amount of state subsidy is higher in both actual pounds spent and as a percentage of revenue than it was in the BR era. _

RENFEs problems are not going to be solved by privatisation, and indeed the government doesn't even suggest they can be, it just states that problems exist and they need to save money by privatisation. Based on the fact we now spend more on rail subsidy than before privatsation, I don't see how anyone can see any possible scenario where privatisation will save a single cent, unless you start shutting down vast swathes of the network. Furthermore, a lot (though not all) of RENFEs and ADIFs inefficiencies stem from government policy decisions, not the nature of the organisations themselves.


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## makita09

Whilst I believe you are largely correct - I would like to privde a few counterpoints.

I don't think it is fair to assume privatising Renfe won't save Spain any money based upon the UK experience - remember that parts of the privatisation process were seriously flawed, the biggest flaw of which was called Railtrack. Seriously huge amounts of cash went up in smoke due to Railtrack's failures (and NR's subsequent repair programmes). Plus there are (were) structural issues with the franchising system that disincentivised private operators from investing private moeny - ironic as this was the entire point of privatisation.

If Spain can learn these lessons the easy way I can imagine that Spain may indeed save money by privatising.

At least with private companies silly things can't happen like a BR boss deciding we don't need Chiltern anymore, the WCML will suffice - with the route's operators being separate stakeholders this kind of thing can't happen (although I acknowledge the BR boss would only have done such a thing due to govt cuts, so its kind of a self-negating point).


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## Neb81

makita09 said:


> Whilst I believe you are largely correct - I would like to privde a few counterpoints.
> 
> I don't think it is fair to assume privatising Renfe won't save Spain any money based upon the UK experience - remember that parts of the privatisation process were seriously flawed, the biggest flaw of which was called Railtrack. Seriously huge amounts of cash went up in smoke due to Railtrack's failures (and NR's subsequent repair programmes). Plus there are (were) structural issues with the franchising system that disincentivised private operators from investing private moeny - ironic as this was the entire point of privatisation.
> 
> If Spain can learn these lessons the easy way I can imagine that Spain may indeed save money by privatising.


Railtrack has since been re-nationalised, and the yet the rail operators still need large and on-going subsidy (separate to the investment in track infrastructure), and are still not capable of covering their own operating costs, let alone paying realistic fees to Network Rail that would meet the costs of maintaining and upgrading track. It would appear that whatever the initial failures were, the private model cannot be made to work efficiently, given that over 15 years has passed since privatisation and not one major franchise has been able to deliver anything without massive subsidies above and beyond anything seen in the days of BR, on top of being given pretty much free reign to price gouge passengers. Indeed, several of them have gone bust and required the DFT to take over the routes - despite the subsidies (and price gouging).

We shouldn't be surprised by this, though. Private operators are neither charities nor not-for-profit public institutions. They exist solely to make as much profit as they possibly can for their share-holders. They have absolutely no other concern. Why then, do we expect them to be willing to provide a service for lower cost than an institution that is doing it on a cost-only basis? 

In the end, their profits come from the subsidies, so the subsidies will not only have to continue adinfinitum, but will have to continue to be vastly padded in order to pay for those profits on-top of the costs of actually running the system and funding the additional structural inefficiencies that the franchising system brings about.



> At least with private companies silly things can't happen like a BR boss deciding we don't need Chiltern anymore, the WCML will suffice - with the route's operators being separate stakeholders this kind of thing can't happen (although I acknowledge the BR boss would only have done such a thing due to govt cuts, so its kind of a self-negating point).


That sort of political interference in BR is exactly the same sort of thing that RENFE has been through. Like BR, there were many in the institution who said it was short-sighted but government wanted to save money and forced them into it. In the case of RENFE, there are things like closing the Murcia-Almeria line, essentially severing the Mediterranean Corridor. On the other hand there are a number of services RENFE runs because of political pressures to serve certain areas or routes that don't make much sense, much like the UK's Parliamentary Trains.


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## Nexis

437.001 said:


> The line Palma-Inca has been electrified a few months ago.
> The sections between Inca to Enllaç, Enllaç to Sa Pobla, and Enllaç to Manacor remain diesel.
> The extension from Manacor to Arta as a tram-train has been postponed.


Are they going to upgrade the Soller line and Extend the Metro to the Airport?


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## 437.001

Nexis said:


> Are they going to upgrade the Soller line


The Soller line is a touristic vintage railway, so no.



> and Extend the Metro to the Airport?


No, there was a project of a tram, but it has been discarded due to the crisis.


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## MarcVD

Neb81 said:


> Also, please explain how and by what mechanism are private companies are meant to be cheaper? I have heard this about privatisation before but no one has ever provided a concrete example of this efficiency, or how it is generated in some way that can only be achieved by a private sector organisation and cannot possibly come about in any other manner. There is nothing mystical about share-holders and so I genuinely do not see any reason why they are credited some innate ability that the managers of a not-for-profit institution cannot posses.


Because, for example, private companies have different labor regulations than
public ones. Number of hours worked per day, people playing multiple roles,
number of people required to execute a task, all of that is different. A freight
train, in dark territory, with switching needed en route, might require up to 3
people for a train run by a state organization, while a private company will do
with one only. This is because historic operators usually have a strong union
presence, structured and able to impose strict work protection rules, while 
new, lean and mean, private companies, usually don't have any.


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## 437.001

^^
Three people for a freight train in a public company? In which country?


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## OriK

Anyway there are private freight train operators in Spain.... some of them, like ALSA (owned by National Express since 2005) are getting experience for the liberalization of the passengers market.


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## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> The Soller line is a touristic vintage railway, so no.


It has also retained its original gauge of 914 mm (= 3 feet = 1 yard), while as far I know the other lines of the island were converted to 1000 mm gauge only a few decdes ago, having originally also that 3 ft gauge.


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## Neb81

Then at least let's be honest and not say it's about doign the job "better" or with more actual efficiency (i.e. upgrading equipment or investing in modern training methods), but instead turning secure, long term, employees with a trained and experienced set of skills, who work as a cohesive unit and usually with considerable employer loyalty, into insecure, inexperienced, high-turnover low-pay and non-unionised jobs, with less oversight and minimal safe working practices. 

Given the employment situation in Spain, and the eclectic nature of the equipment on the network, Rajoy's genius plan would be comedic is it wasn't so tragic to both the economy and the lives of workers and passengers on the rail system.

K_ : Regarding the Swiss/Swedish/Dutch/German examples, if the private sector can make lower bids even after profit-taking, then how come they didn't instantly drive the state companies out entirely? If they are more competetive then surely they must conquer the market rather than a minor corner or it?


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> It has also retained its original gauge of 914 mm (= 3 feet = 1 yard), while as far I know the other lines of the island were converted to 1000 mm gauge only a few decdes ago, having originally also that 3 ft gauge.


:yes:


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## Sopomon

Neb81 said:


> Then at least let's be honest and not say it's about doign the job "better" or with more actual efficiency (i.e. upgrading equipment or investing in modern training methods), but instead turning secure, long term, employees with a trained and experienced set of skills, who work as a cohesive unit and usually with considerable employer loyalty,* into insecure, inexperienced, high-turnover low-pay and non-unionised jobs, with less oversight and minimal safe working practices. *


Spain can't afford it.

And also, the emboldened part of what you said is really not very true at all. It will be slightly more insecure, but you won't see people getting fired left right and centre, it'll simply be that the railways won't take on any new workers for a few years. Every corporation has about a 10-15% employee loss per annum, though changes in jobs, or the employees retiring. 
As for inexperienced, I have no idea what you're trying to imply. It's almost as if you think they'd go through less training or something beforehand. There are doubtlessly national regulations for that. (This applies to the oversight and safe working practices that you mentioned too)

And frankly, unions are rarely a positive thing in the workforce these days. They were relevant when workers were *geniunely* exploited and abused, but that almost never happens these days. Outside of the more germanic style of union, which provides useful reports of conditions on the shop floors and a perspective from the workers (so that management don't try to do anything utterly ludicrous), most unions I know of exist almost solely to hike up wages way above the national average. 

And the simple resaon why DB and SSB et al. are running a high percentage of lines is that there are still massive barriers to entry on the rail markets, which, undoubtably, being the monopolists, the national rail firms are very happy raising these barriers further, stifling much of the competition.


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## K_

Neb81 said:


> K_ : Regarding the Swiss/Swedish/Dutch/German examples, if the private sector can make lower bids even after profit-taking, then how come they didn't instantly drive the state companies out entirely? If they are more competetive then surely they must conquer the market rather than a minor corner or it?


In the case of Spain that is indeed what we see. Private coach companies like ALSA enjoy quite a high share of the market, and successfully outcompete RENFE on many routes...


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## Suburbanist

I think some forumers are still ignoring a key factor: private management can bring savings not only by reducing wages, but by improving the operational and financial processes of a railway. 

And, then, it can get something done cheaper than the government _despite_ having been expected to turn a profit (which, in any case, for transportation companies of all modes is usually well below 10% of revenues turned into net profits). 



> Then at least let's be honest and not say it's about doign the job "better" or with more actual efficiency (i.e. upgrading equipment or investing in modern training methods), but instead turning secure, long term, employees with a trained and experienced set of skills, who work as a cohesive unit and usually with considerable employer loyalty, into insecure, inexperienced, high-turnover low-pay and non-unionised jobs, with less oversight and minimal safe working practices.


There are some flaws with this argument, but the major problem is this: a railway company is NOT an employment agency. Its major function is to provide transportation (of goods and people depending on the case). Jobs are generated as a byproduct (as with any other economic activity, from food and home appliances industries to the prostitution and drugs trades if you want to include them).

Unions, as many of them still operate today, are stuck in a 1950s context where raw manpower was required and the overwhelming majority of functions were narrowly specialized "screwdriver operator" ones. 

Understandably so (although narrow minded), unions in heavily unionized services want to preserve "good jobs" at all costs. That mentality helped (or at least accelerated) the killing of manufacturing on many European countries. Then, local-based industries (you can't "offshore" a rail line!) sometimes got unions even more entrenched on that.

Then, we have people making stories fly about how someone from my grandparents' generation was "able to feed a family of 5 by working a secure jobs as train conductor for his whole life and having proud on what he did".

Sorry, this is not the World we live in anymore. 

Many fanboys out there resent privatization not because it directly affects them on their employment (since many don't work for railways anyway), but because it "corporatizes" their object of affection. Some of the worst rants I've read on this forum or elsewhere are not related to objective quality of service, but things like livery, how "bad on the map" a network looks, how modern trains "lacks character and look the same all over the World" etc.

With privatization, jobs that require extensive training and high qualifications are not going to see high turnover as it is counterproductive for the company. On the other hand, jobs that are grossly overpaid by CURRENT standards (including things like station agents that get automatic extra 10% increase every 5 years merely by doing the same thing for that long) are likely to see more turnover, as it is the case with airlines, for instnace (look at the turnover of pilots vs. turnover of baggage handlers)


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## Neb81

K_ said:


> In the case of Spain that is indeed what we see. Private coach companies like ALSA enjoy quite a high share of the market, and successfully outcompete RENFE on many routes...


This is largely historical. Inter-city bus travel Spain has long been more popular than in most of western Europe. As the Spanish rail network is less dense than others, and is more radial in nature, inter-city buses play a more important role than Germany, Britain or the Netherlands.

What is more significant is that how investment in RENFE / ADIF has transformed the market share of rail. With the completion of the Madrid-Barcelona LAV, passengers loading on the Puente Aereo slumped drastically, and a huge switch took place to rail, just as the TGV did with Paris-Marseille.

Targeted investment brings change far more simply and reliably than depositing a few billion a year in the lap of a guy in a flash suit and asking him to show you his magic wand. Targeted investment doesn't even have to be large to generate impressive results, as the InterCity 125 / HST programme in the UK demonstrated.


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## K_

Neb81 said:


> What is more significant is that how investment in RENFE / ADIF has transformed the market share of rail. With the completion of the Madrid-Barcelona LAV, passengers loading on the Puente Aereo slumped drastically, and a huge switch took place to rail, just as the TGV did with Paris-Marseille.


Yes, but one of the things that strikes me as odd is that RENFE isn't really running that many trains over its high speed lines. Given the sizes of Barcelona and Madrid I'd expect at least a train every 15 minutes. 
Look at the traffic on the LGV Sud - Est in France for a comparison. That line has 13 trains per hour...
And RENFE really should start considering it's network as a network, not a collection of train services. Any place less than an hour from Barcelona is now less than four hours from Madrid. Where are the through tickets and coordinated schedules?


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## Suburbanist

^^ The rail market on the first French TGV line has 30 years and counting, time enough for it to mature. That is not the case of relatively new services to/from Barcelona-Zaragoza-Madrid.

Even more than that, the previous rail service was laughable, too slow and outperformed and out-ridden by buses on the lower end, airplanes on the upper end of those markets.


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## Coccodrillo

The LGV Sud-Est links many cities also outside the main axis Paris-Lyon-Marseille, and none of them has more than 2 tph to Paris. On the other hand there is not much outside Madrid, Barcelona and the cities in between. The only other services that use this line, exiting it, are the Madrid-Pamplona/Logroño and Barcelona-Pamplona/Logroño, and in future maybe some Madrid/Barcelona-Tarragona.

But it's true that a train every 60 minutes with a few extras at peaks and some other servicers is not that much.


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## alserrod

Last weekend, being Zaragoza major days, Renfe put several extra AVE services and an Avant service Madrid-Zaragoza-Madrid just for a couple of days.

This last one had less facilities than the other trains but costed only 30 euro (no discounts except return, youth, etc...).

FULL....


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## OriK

^^ The AVEs should look more like AVANTs and the AVANTs like Cercanías....


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## 437.001

Neb81 said:


> This is largely historical. Inter-city bus travel Spain has long been more popular than in most of western Europe. As the Spanish rail network is less dense than others, and is more radial in nature, inter-city buses play a more important role than Germany, Britain or the Netherlands.


Indeed.



K said:


> Yes, but one of the things that strikes me as odd is that RENFE isn't really running that many trains over its high speed lines.


Renfe lacks gauge-changing trains, which are more expensive then other trains, I guess.



> Given the sizes of Barcelona and Madrid I'd expect at least a train every 15 minutes.
> Look at the traffic on the LGV Sud - Est in France for a comparison. That line has 13 trains per hour...


Spain has 45 million inhabitants, France 65 million inhabitants.



> And RENFE really should start considering it's network as a network, not a collection of train services. Any place less than an hour from Barcelona is now less than four hours from Madrid. Where are the through tickets and coordinated schedules?


They´re starting to appear. But they are not yet known by the average Spaniard.


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## alserrod

Canfranc station after rains


----------



## gincan

437.001 said:


> Spain has 45 million inhabitants, France 65 million inhabitants.


Population alone does not even begin to explain the underutilization of the line. It is clear that Renfe has failed miserably in its attempt to catch a large enough market share when close to 50% still favor the airline option over the rail.

On top of this you have dozens of coaches every day between Barcelona and Madrid, ALSA alone runs 30 a day each way.

The current 2,5 million people traveling between Barcelona and Madrid on rail does barely reach i quarter of the estimated 10-11 million trips done on a yearly basis.

As an example, Between Stockholm and Copenhagen the proposed HSR line would have a 30 minute headway outside of peak load hours, and that rail corridor does not even reach half the population of the Madrid-Barcelona one, during rush hour they calculated a base need of one train every 6 minutes.


----------



## Sunfuns

gincan said:


> Population alone does not even begin to explain the underutilization of the line. It is clear that Renfe has failed miserably in its attempt to catch a large enough market share when close to 50% still favor the airline option over the rail.


Does that count out those who use Madrid or Barcelona as a transit point for further flights? Even if it does there is a tough competition on this route and the time and distance is close to the edge of what is optimal for HSR. I wouldn't expect airlines to completely give up like they did on a much shorter Paris-Brussels route.



gincan said:


> On top of this you have dozens of coaches every day between Barcelona and Madrid, ALSA alone runs 30 a day each way.


That's a different market segment. HSR is a bad news to airlines, not so much to bus companies because they are usually significantly cheaper. Much longer too, but for many people that's not so important.

Having said all that Renfe can certainly do a better job running more trains and having more connecting options. As far as I see they are slowly moving into that direction. A competing operator wouldn't hurt either.


----------



## OriK

gincan said:


> As an example, Between Stockholm and Copenhagen the proposed HSR line would have a 30 minute headway outside of peak load hours, and that rail corridor does not even reach half the population of the Madrid-Barcelona one, during rush hour they calculated a base need of one train every 6 minutes.


But have in mind that between Madrid and Barcelona there is a "population density gap"... I don't know if the situation is comparable with the one in the Stockholm-Copenhagen corridor...

There are ~15-17 daily buses (ALSA) and 29 daily trains (Renfe)...

¿Why does the bus still exists? It costs 30.34€ and the price is fixed.

The train costs from 45.10€ (night service) or 47.90€ (day service) to 141.40€... and you never know how much you will pay until you buy your tickets.

So obviously the train carries more passengers than the bus, but the bus market is still important... the people chooses the bus over the train because they can't afford those extra 15€ (in the best of the cases)... or because when they try to buy a ticket... it's way more expensive.

It's clear that Renfe needs to improve their comercial policy.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Renfe doesn't need to improve its pricing policy. Buses serve a lower end of the market for people who will travel on the cheapest possible way even if it takes several hours longer. You can't compete with that, unless you have low-cost high-speed trains (with 3+2 seating, no services on-board, no Internet, limited bathrooms, reduced pitch, no individual lighting, fixed departuring and returning date with no exchange etc.) so that your "cheap" trains that take on buses are still bad enough to put off the crowds that pay much for for regular high-speed trains.


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## gincan

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Renfe doesn't need to improve its pricing policy. Buses serve a lower end of the market for people who will travel on the cheapest possible way even if it takes several hours longer. You can't compete with that, unless you have low-cost high-speed trains (with 3+2 seating, no services on-board, no Internet, limited bathrooms, reduced pitch, no individual lighting, fixed departuring and returning date with no exchange etc.) so that your "cheap" trains that take on buses are still bad enough to put off the crowds that pay much for for regular high-speed trains.



Which is what Renfe should have launched in the first place. Now when the Spanish rail network will open up to private operators they will loose that edge they would otherwise have in the low cost/mass transport segment.

When the first Spanish version of NTV begin to operate, Renfe will be in serious problems. And when the first version of Ryan Rail begin to operate i Spain, I guess Renfe will more or less fold under the competition.


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## gincan

Sunfuns said:


> That's a different market segment. HSR is a bad news to airlines, not so much to bus companies because they are usually significantly cheaper. Much longer too, but for many people that's not so important.


There was a time when international long distance coaches were the poor man's alternative to flying, then came Ryan Air and Easy Jet and those coaches disappeared almost over night.

In fact, until the 1990s deregulation, it cost less than half and even just a third to take an international long distance coach instead of flying, despite the 2-3 days worth of travel time.

Today, no sane person spend upwards 60-70 hours in a buss when you can fly the same distance in 2-3 hours and pay less than half the price. I foresee a similar evolution when it come to low cost trains.


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## Sunfuns

gincan said:


> Today, no sane person spend upwards 60-70 hours in a buss when you can fly the same distance in 2-3 hours and pay less than half the price. I foresee a similar evolution when it come to low cost trains.


First of all long distance buses from Eastern Europe to the West (for example) still exist. The main selling point is not the price (similar to Ryanair), but no limits (within reason) on baggage. Travel time between Madrid and Barcelona is only 6-7 hours so it's obvious that buses can still compete. There is also a bus service between Paris and London. Much cheaper than Eurostar, but not really a serious competitor for it. 

Second, competition in rail will never be quite so wild as in air. The reason is that there is too much shared infrastructure (paid for by the government) and two trains can't be there at the same time.

By the way prices on Frecciarossa and Italo (by no means a low service operation) are comparable. Why would you expect it to be different in Spain?


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## alserrod

I lived just middle way Madrid to Barcelona and in this station Renfe takes an important number of Madrid-Barcelona passengers... and the bus will have a chance to get passengers in two cases:

First of all, direct buses to Madrid airport. Some buses do not go direct to Madrid centre but stop at first at the airport. Comparing train+commuter against direct bus the difference is not so big and the fare difference is huge

Secondly, buses while the night or early morning or late night. As far as all trains arrive/depart at Barcelona, you cannot arrive Madrid before 9:00 or departing after 21:00


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## Sunfuns

alserrod said:


> Secondly, buses while the night or early morning or late night. As far as all trains arrive/depart at Barcelona, you cannot arrive Madrid before 9:00 or departing after 21:00


That could be easily changed by organizing high speed medium distance service ending in Zaragoza with first trains leaving in either direction at around 6:00 and the last at 23:00 (same from Madrid and Barcelona). The early trains in particular might be popular with business people who would like to be in their Madrid/Barcelona office before eight. 

One thing is true for sure, the capacity of that line is much higher than is currently used.


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## alserrod

In my humble opinion they should... and they really did it!!! until 2008 there were a Zaragoza-Madrid early morning and several Madrid-Zaragoza-Madrid, stopping at Zaragoza just an hour... but they erased all trains which finished at Zaragoza. All of them enlarged until Barcelona... and at Zaragoza there is a driver's base. This is, an important number of train drivers and usually it is one driver who gets in at Zaragoza, arrive to Barcelona, come back and at Zaragoza they change the driver...


But there are Renfe things hard to understand


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## OriK

alserrod said:


> First of all, direct buses to Madrid airport. Some buses do not go direct to Madrid centre but stop at first at the airport. Comparing train+commuter against direct bus the difference is not so big and the fare difference is huge


I think that that is not a valid reason as you can get a direct train to the airport from Atocha.


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## alserrod

Look at this way:

There are things that it is impossible to do worst than Renfe.

From Barajas T4 Airport there are trains every 30 minutes and they arrive at XX.24 or XX:54 to Atocha. They are very punctual and they are free if you are going to shuttle with a high speed train.

Ok in that way... but... more than half of high speed trains that departs from Madrid are with destination Sevilla or destination Barcelona. 
Destination Sevilla departs at XX:00 always, and destination Barcelona at XX:30 always and some extra at XX:00.

What does it mean?. You have to consider a 36 minutes for shuttle (impossible to go from the commuter station to the high speed station in just 6 minutes).

So then... Madrid airport T4-Zaragoza
Train: 26 minutes of commuter train, 36 minutes for shuttle and 1h20m for journey until Zaragoza. 2h22m in total
Bus: no shuttle and 3h30 in total

Let's consider how much money does it cost saving just almost one hour going to airport.


Should the trains arrive to Atocha at XX:40 or XX:10, things could change.


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## gincan

Sunfuns said:


> Second, competition in rail will never be quite so wild as in air. The reason is that there is too much shared infrastructure (paid for by the government) and two trains can't be there at the same time.


There are some 300 slots available on the Madrid Barcelona corridor, currently, around 40 of those are used by Renfe. SNCF, DB and FS all have stated their intention to run this corridor, that is 4 competing companies, then you'll have the private ones on top of that. You could end up with a price war pretty quickly once all are up and running. 

Who knows, maybe later we'll even see SBB and BR trains to, the capacity will for sure not be a problem on this deserted line, France will probably be the main bottleneck until Montpellier-Perpignan is built.


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## Sunfuns

Yes, but it will be moderated by the fact that all of them will have to pay the same amount for track use to Adif. Ryanair built it's model to a large extent on using alternative cheaper airports farther away from the main city. Such tactics won't be possible in rail.


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## alserrod

Sunfuns said:


> Yes, but it will be moderated by the fact that all of them will have to pay the same amount for track use to Adif. Ryanair built it's model to a large extent on using alternative cheaper airports farther away from the main city. Such tactics won't be possible in rail.


In fact in Spain they do not use cheaper airports at all. They starting using some of them. For instance Santander instead of Bilbao, Reus and Gerona instead of Barcelona, etc...

But finally they use all of them... and they do not receive any aid in main airports, having additional taxes... but it is so much the number of passengers that they prefer to keep them.


In some post, a forumer wrote about the fee for a train using the Spanish gauge rail, the high speed rail and the stations, where different fees, dependind on which ones.


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## OriK

Nowadays I think that one of the main problems in the Spanish railways is Atocha... there are continuous traffic jams... if those 300 slots were used... I think that it would be a chaos...





10 minutes of Atocha-Cercanías in rush hour (but it's too bright to be rush hour in my opinion). You can also observe some of the trains at Atocha-Puerta de Atocha in the upper right corner.


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## K_

OriK said:


> Nowadays I think that one of the main problems in the Spanish railways is Atocha... there are continuous traffic jams... if those 300 slots were used... I think that it would be a chaos...
> 
> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8fis4aQXXg">YouTube Link</a>
> 10 minutes of Atocha-Cercanías in rush hour (but it's too bright to be rush hour in my opinion). You can also observe some of the trains at Atocha-Puerta de Atocha in the upper right corner.


But the high speed part is completely separated from the cercanias. Looking at the high speed infrastructure I observe that it is not running at anywhere near capacity.


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## OriK

K_ said:


> But the high speed part is completely separated from the cercanias. Looking at the high speed infrastructure I observe that it is not running at anywhere near capacity.


Have in mind that it's a terminal station, they had to connect the railways in the midle of the platform to be able to use 3 trains per each 2 platforms.


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## K_

OriK said:


> Have in mind that it's a terminal station, they had to connect the railways in the midle of the platform to be able to use 3 trains per each 2 platforms.


What do you mean by that?
How many normal gauge tacks does Atocha have?


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## alserrod

Let me ask...


----------



## Coccodrillo

15 standard gauge and 10 broad gauge, the latter continuing to the tunnels to Chamartín.

With the new standard gauge tunnel 4 additional tracks will be added, but only later. Initially the new tunnel will be linked to the south via a single track branch tunnel, as the new four tracks will not be ready in time. So trains from Valencia will go to Chamartín passing under Atocha, but not stopping there.


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## OriK

AlexNL said:


> I am a bit puzzled by the amount of train services offered by Renfe. In the Netherlands, we have three train series: sprinter (stops at all stations), intercity (skips smaller stations) and high speed trains (Fyra and Thalys).


And what about stoptrains?


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## AlexNL

Thanks for the clarification on Renfe's brands and trains. It helps me to understand the system a bit better 



OriK said:


> And what about stoptrains?


NS has dropped the name "stoptrein" in favor of "sprinter". Other carriers (such as Arriva) do still use the name "stoptrein".


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## 437.001

*News:*

Feve (Ferrocarriles de Vía Estrecha -_Spanish for 'Narrow Gauge Railways'_-) is integrated into Adif (infrastructure) and Renfe (operations) from New Year´s Day.

Feve website, announcing the end of their website (in Spanish)

Adif website, new section 'Metric gauge' (in Spanish)

There´s nothing on the Renfe website yet.

A new chapter for railways in Spain starts. Good or bad, we´ll see... :sly:


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## Rodalvesdepaula

Feve will disappear and replace by Renfe Operadora/Adif?


----------



## AlexNL

Yes.


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## 437.001

*News:*

The Ministry has announced which rail services will be considered as of "compulsory public service", and which wont. 
Those services which wont, will be either supressed, or transferred into coaches, or maintained if the region pays the whole deficit of the train.

It´s been announced that four stations in La Rioja region will be closed (Cenicero-San Isidro, Haro-El Pardo, Arrúbal, and Recajo).

It´s also been announced that:

-the regional train Monzón-Lérida is suppressed.
-the regional train Zaragoza-Mora la Nueva is shortened to Zaragoza-Caspe.

That´s all we know for now.

I could post the whole document, but it´s not very clear as it´s quite contradictory, so I´d rather post the news as long as we get to know them...


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## alserrod

Rodalvesdepaula said:


> Feve will disappear and replace by Renfe Operadora/Adif?


Yes, and nevertheless... there is one touristic train over classic rails that is (was) managed by FEVE, as far as not all FEVE services are in the north of Spain (almost, almost all of the, but there is a little line in the south).



FEVE has two touristic trains:

- Transcantabrico. Journey Leon-Santiago via Bilbao (or vice-versa). Departing Leon the train arrives to the sea and turns back besides the sea until Ferrol. Later coach to Santiago.
One week 

- Al Andalus express
Six days around Andalucia, departing and arriving from/to Seville and calling in some of the most beatiful cities in the region
Runs in spring and autumn

In 2013 and 2014 while summer the same train will run Madrid-Zaragoza (or vice-versa) making a tour in the middle-north Spain with calls at Segovia, Salamanca, Burgos, Vitoria, Pamplona, etc...


Price without discounts would be about 2500 EUR per person in a double deck.
It is all included. Normally meals would be in luxurious restaurants in the area and breakfast in the train while running. All buses, entrances, etc... are included


----------



## JumpUp

*Many questions...*

HeyHo,

as I promised, I got LOTS of questions concerning the high-speed rail in Spain:

I'd like to know about all new HSR railways that are currently under construction. Can you please give me a quick comment on the following railways how far the construcion is and a (very approximate date) of HSR opening. Sadly wikipedia is not always up-to-date or simply delivers no information at all:

*Sevilla-Cadiz:* I can't really find any information, is it already in the building phase?

*Madrid-Badajoz:* It should be part of the Madrid-Lisbon connection. How much future does this railway has if Portugal doesn't build on their part of the country? Will there be high-speed gauge/border crossing gauge changing? Any opening year yet to be known?

*(Malaga)-Antequera-Sevilla:* I've seen parts of the building already when I visited Antequera, is there an opening year?

*Alacant-Almeria: * Albacete-Alacant will be opened in summer 2013, what about the ongoing connection HSR all the way to Almeria? Is it already under construction?

*Antequera-Granada:* They are building very fast along that line - I could see it on my visit. Any opening date? Is there a plan to connect it to Almeria? Then there would be a big circle: Madrid-Albacete-Alacant-Almeria-Granada-Antequera Cordoba-Madrid 

*Madrid-Valladolid-Irun:* Is there already an approximate opening date for the standart gauge going all the way up north of Spain into France?


After opening soooo many lines in the next year. Did Renfe already order more 300+ km/h trains for the network? If you got more network, you need more trains, so did they order already some? Any information about future high-speed rolling stock?

*Barcelona-Valencia:* As far as I know this line will not be an HSR line, just an "upgrade" line. Is it already finished? Will it be in standart gauge too? 

*Valencia-Alacant:* Is there a plan to connect Valencia with an HSR to the new HSR direction Alacant? So a new line around: Valencia-La Encina?

Wikipedia says the following:
_
"Services from Lyon to Barcelona in under four hours are planned, probably in 2014, using the classic line in France between Perpignan and Nîmes. A new company jointly owned by RENFE and SNCF is to be formed to run services between Paris and Madrid. Ten new trains are to be purchased at a cost of €300 million."_

What are those 10 new trains and is the schedule still correct for "2014 AVE class 100 to France?" Will they indeed take the old trains for a border-crossing service? How likely is a direct connection AVE/TGV Paris-Madrid via Montepellier-Perpignan and Girona?

How accurate is this map? Is there something missing? Does anybody have a better or more up-to-date map?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HighSpeedSpain.png

Last question:
Is there something like a year ticket for all of RENFE high-speed network (incl. AVE of course?) A ticket where you pay an annual fee and then get to ride as much as you like? In Germany it's the Bahncard100, in Swiss the Generalabo, so maybe there is something like that in Spain too? (I'm not talking of interrail)


Thank you so much for all your answers  Have a nice sunday!

Philllip


----------



## gincan

JumpUp said:


> *Sevilla-Cadiz:* I can't really find any information, is it already in the building phase?


It is an upgrade of the existing railway, dubbeltracking and straitening of curves. The only part if this railway where you will see trains running above 200km/h is the section between Utrera and Jerez which partly support speeds up to 250km/h but generally 200/220.

Some photos taken this summer

http://www.tranvia.org/modules.php?...pic&t=8893&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=320




JumpUp said:


> *Madrid-Badajoz:* It should be part of the Madrid-Lisbon connection. How much future does this railway has if Portugal doesn't build on their part of the country? Will there be high-speed gauge/border crossing gauge changing? Any opening year yet to be known?


Until the Portuguese side is built (who knows if ever), it will be an ultra expensive railway and a complete black hole in the Spanish railway budget.



JumpUp said:


> *Alacant-Almeria: * Albacete-Alacant will be opened in summer 2013, what about the ongoing connection HSR all the way to Almeria? Is it already under construction?


The main tunnel on the line is now drilled, hopefully it will not end up in a similar way another Spanish railway tunnel did http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engaña_Tunnel The way things are going I'm not to optimistic though hno:



JumpUp said:


> *Madrid-Valladolid-Irun:* Is there already an approximate opening date for the standart gauge going all the way up north of Spain into France?


The line between Madrid and Burgos will be operational in the near future (2015 or 2016) but then there is a 90km section after Burgos (4-5 years worth of construction at least) that is not even started. So Madrid to Irun might open in the next decade, 2020-2030.



JumpUp said:


> How accurate is this map? Is there something missing? Does anybody have a better or more up-to-date map?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HighSpeedSpain.png

Fairly, but the best map you will fin anywhere on the net is this one:

http://www.geotren.es/ferrocarril.html

Dotted lines in black show railway construction, ongoing and upcoming for 2013.

This map below is maybe easier to understand, it shows funding for HSR construction for 2013

http://www.geotren.es/blog/presupue...13-y-la-alta-velocidad-desglose-por-corredor/


----------



## Sunfuns

That last link is particularly informative. Can somebody comment why funding favours the line to Galicia over alternatives (line to Asturias or to Basque country or Barcelona-Valencia etc)? 

How much more work is needed until the long dug Pajares base tunnel could be used?


----------



## alserrod

Sunfuns said:


> That last link is particularly informative. Can somebody comment why funding favours the line to Galicia over alternatives (line to Asturias or to Basque country or Barcelona-Valencia etc)?



Sorry for talking about politic topics but... current Spanish president is from Galicia.

They had regional elections in november but where estimated for march, so they worked a lot to have something prepared or on works while elections...


Things are like this. Everyone know why first HSL was Madrid-Sevilla...


----------



## Adpg

Video AVE Málaga-Barcelona. Zaragoza Delicias station.






It is the first train does not stop in Madrid Atocha station together with AVE Sevilla-Valencia.


----------



## alserrod

There are five daily train per direction with no call at Madrid but running close to it:

2x Barcelona-Sevilla
2x Barcelona-Malaga
1x Valencia-Sevilla (option to shuttle to Malaga)

In the case of the train that appear in the ADPG video, it drives for almost 1200 km in 5h 40 min entirely over high speed line.


you can leave Malaga, in the south Spain, Mediterranean coast looking to Africa at 8:20 and be in Barcelona at 14:00 for lunch time.


----------



## 437.001

Hi there...



JumpUp said:


> HeyHo,
> 
> as I promised, I got LOTS of questions concerning the high-speed rail in Spain:
> 
> I'd like to know about all new HSR railways that are currently under construction. Can you please give me a quick comment on the following railways how far the construcion is and a (very approximate date) of HSR opening. Sadly wikipedia is not always up-to-date or simply delivers no information at all:


Ok then, here I go:



> *Sevilla-Cadiz:* I can't really find any information, is it already in the building phase?


Strictly speaking, this is not a HSL, but an upgrading and double-tracking of the existing line. In Iberian gauge btw.
Very recently a new strecth has been double-tracked, between Jerez de la Frontera and Aeropuerto de Jerez (station formerly known as La Parra).
The following two stretches, between Aeropuerto de Jerez and Lebrija, and between Lebrija and Marismilla, are very advanced, especially the former.

The line has also been double-tracked in several phases, which started in some cases more than fifteen years ago, between Seville and Utrera, between Jerez de la Frontera and Las Aletas, and between Puerto Real and Cádiz. Right now, the only single-track remaining section between Aeropuerto de Jerez and Cádiz is Puerto Real provisional station, since the works for the new underground station are, be it halted, be it advanging at a snail´s pace. 

The remaing section in single track, between Marismilla and Utrera, saw platform works start, then halt, and no works have taken place there in years.



> *Madrid-Badajoz:* It should be part of the Madrid-Lisbon connection.


There are works between Navalmoral de la Mata and somewhere around Plasencia, between Cañaveral and Cáceres, and between Cáceres and Badajoz (excepting the Mérida station and its approach). Works in the remaining stretch between Navalmoral de la Mata and Pantoja (where it would connect with the Madrid-Seville HSL) have not started at all. Not a single rail on the line yet, far from that.



> How much future does this railway has if Portugal doesn't build on their part of the country?


It could still be done, travel times between Madrid and Portugal (and between Extremadura and the rest of Spain) would decrease incredibly even in that case. Portugal announced it will build the Badajoz-Évora stretch, but only single-tracked and in Iberian gauge, albeit prepared since its opening for double-tracking and Standard gauge in the future if need (and budget) be.



> Will there be high-speed gauge/border crossing gauge changing?


Could be, could be not. We´ll see.



> Any opening year yet to be known?


No! :lol:



> *(Malaga)-Antequera-Sevilla:* I've seen parts of the building already when I visited Antequera, is there an opening year?


This one´s a mess... :no: And of course there is no opening date yet.

This HSL was started by the Andalusian regional government, and they built the platform between Marchena and Antequera-Santa Ana (not Antequera proper, which is on the Antequera-Granada HSL), where it would connect with the Madrid-Cordova-Malaga HSL.

The problem is that the works between Marchena and Seville haven´t started at all, since the Andalusian regional government lacked the funds to build this section, which includes a rather long and expensive tunnel under Seville airport.

Finally the Ministry took over the Andalusian regional government as the master of works for this HSL, only to stop them, as the line has been relegated behind others (actually, nearly all the other HSLs) in the list of priorities. 

It has to be said that this HSL was not so necessary, since there are already high speed trains between Seville and Malaga via Cordova. 



> *Alacant-Almeria: *


Actually, it´s two HSLs, not one (two different projects): Albacete-Alicante-Murcia is one thing, and Murcia-Lorca-Almeria another.



> Albacete-Alacant will be opened in summer 2013,


Correct.



> what about the ongoing connection HSR all the way to Almeria? Is it already under construction?


Er... this is a bit too complex to explain, since as I said, there are two very different sections. But these two lines can also be divided in two or even seventeen or eighteen sections, such are the varying stages of construction.

Planification here has been a bit... weird (I don´t want to use rude language). :sleepy:

The Ministry says that the stretch *between Monforte del Cid (just outside Alicante) and Murcia* could be opening in 2015/16. We´ll see... :sly:

This section will consist of a normal HSL *between* *Monforte del Cid and Crevillent* (till right here, no problem at all)... 

...and an upgraded line (with commuter trains and freight) *between Crevillent and Murcia*. It will be transformed to Standard gauge, with no third rail.

And this is one of the biggest debates in HSR in Spain, since it will have commuter trains, freight, and HSR together, and its coexistence is source of future trouble to many (including myself). Now, that wouldn´t hurt in other sectors, but I think it does in this particular one.

Its construction is... fragmented at the very least. :lol:

Some parts are already in use but in Iberian gauge as a provisional thing, others are in works (various stages, including a new, and in my view totally unnecessary new Orihuela underground station)... and then there´s Murcia station. 

*Murcia station*, which is supposed to be much bigger and underground (thus very expensive) than the current one, has not started at all, which is an enormous problem since current Murcia station (population 445,000) has only four platforms, which damages the performance of the whole passenger traffic in all the Southeastern region.

======================================================

Then there´s the *Murcia-Lorca-Almería section*, which is a part of a different project, but depends completely on the construction of the new Murcia station.

Its construction is also quite fragmented, since it was the first section to be started (don´t ask!), and can be very clearly split in three sections:

-*Murcia to Lorca*. 

It is the most complex section concerning stages of construction. What started out as a simple double tracking and upgrading of the Murcia-Lorca classic line has turned into a full HSL... during the works. :sleepy:

There are three sections (Alhama de Murcia to Totana, and Totana to Lorca -excepting the Alhama de Murcia, Totana, and Lorca approaches, where works haven´t even started-) that have been built to HSL standards, and have platform works finished or at a very advanced stage.

The problem is that one particular strech of the original upgrading project of the classic line (between Sangonera and Librilla) is finished but has never been opened. :crazy:

Contrarily to the Crevillent-Murcia section of the Alicante-Murcia line, here the line has been built separated from the classic line (while in this case it was perhaps less necessary than between Crevillent and Murcia...), excepted the infamous and yet unused Sangonera-Librilla stretch, which is totally :crazy: and so disruptive that it´ll have to be demolished and re-built to match the rest of the line, that is, having never been used!!! icard::rant:

-*Lorca station and Lorca-Pulpí*.

Lorca station is a problem nearly as big as Murcia, since Lorca station (population 90,000) has only two platforms. 
Like in Murcia, the new station should be an underground and much bigger one. Its construction hasn´t started (budget again).

Works between Lorca and Pulpí haven´t started yet.

And actually the Ministry has more than enough to cope with in this sector: the classic line here is closed after it got very severely damaged in the last September floods.

-*Pulpí-Almeria*.

This is already in Andalusia, we leave the Murcia region behind.
Works here seem to go very slowly, since this is not a big priority.
There are some viaducts and a long tunnel built, but they take it easy.

But once in service, it will be a great thing, since there are no rail services between Murcia and Andalusia since 1985: now it takes 12 hours to travel by train from Barcelona to Almeria, with this stretch, travel time from Barcelona to Almeria will shorten to only 4h30!!! 



> *Antequera-Granada:* They are building very fast along that line - I could see it on my visit. Any opening date?


Strange as it might seem to you: NO!

It is very advanced in many sectors, but it lacks three crucial ones:

-*Antequera central station* (different to the current HSL Antequera-Santa Ana parkway station). The current Antequera station cannot cope, too small, and they´ll build a new one, not underground, but in a half-covered trench. Works haven´t started (budget again), and it looks like they´ll use the current small station provisionally.

-*HSL around Loja and Loja station*. This is a geologically very complicated sector, so complicated that it has been postponed!! Trains will run on the classic line here then... that is, once it gets the 3rd rail or is transformed to Standard gauge. The HSL around Loja and Loja station will only be built when there are funds again and after many other lines and sections, since it´s so expensive and complex. 

-*Granada station*. Again, another uncertain station. 
The original project was an underground and very expensive and posh station (again).
Current Granada station might do (WILL do), although the station will have to be extensively refurbished. Contrarily to Murcia, Lorca, and Antequera stations, there´s no problems of space, the current Granada station is big enough. 



> Is there a plan to connect it to Almeria? Then there would be a big circle: Madrid-Albacete-Alacant-Almeria-Granada-Antequera Cordoba-Madrid


There´s a plan, but only in the very long term. No project yet.
This is normal, since Granada to Almeria is one of the most difficult and steep (and beautuful!) lines in Spain. It´s a mountain line, so building a HSL here would involve big tunnels.



> *Madrid-Valladolid-Irun:* Is there already an approximate opening date for the standart gauge going all the way up north of Spain into France?


No, not at all. There was one (2016), but it has been scrapped, as it was irrealistic.

-*Madrid to Valladolid* is in service.

-*Valladolid to Burgos* is at an advanced to very advanced stage. Should be ready by 2015/16.

-*Burgos to Vitoria*: works haven´t started here yet.

-*Vitoria to Bilbao and San Sebastian (the "Basque Y")*: advanced to very advanced works, yes... but Bilbao, Vitoria and San Sebastian station approaches haven´t been started yet (which is understandable since the area is rather mountainous but very densely populated, which makes things quite complex). 

-*San Sebastian to Irun*: its construction depends on the construction of the French part of the line, which isn´t very clear since the French Basque are very opposed to it (nymbys).



> After opening soooo many lines in the next year.


No, just two (Barcelona-Figueras and Albacete-Alicante).



> Did Renfe already order more 300+ km/h trains for the network? If you got more network, you need more trains, so did they order already some? Any information about future high-speed rolling stock?


No, trains are already there. 
Actually there´s a number of yet-unused trains, waiting for extensions to enter service (or to be more busy than they are now).

As for future rolling-stock, we don´t know, given that it´s likely that Renfe might be privatized. Keep an eye then.



> *Barcelona-Valencia:* As far as I know this line will not be an HSR line, just an "upgrade" line.


This line was much much more necessary than some others, but for some reasons too long to explain, it will still take long time since we see a HSL between Valencia and Tarragona.

It can be divided in three sections:

-*Valencia-Castellon-Vandellos*.

It was going to be a HSL, the section between Valencia and Castellon was about to start works (in fact I even think that some preliminary works actually started, iirc). And between Castellon and Vandellos there were studies for a HSL. But this week we´ve known that it´s all been scrapped, and that the current line will simply be transformed to Standard gauge between Vandellos and Castellon (with a few upgradings here and there), and 3rd rail between Castellon and Valencia.

-*Vandellos-Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona*.

a) Vandellos-Vilaseca:
The neverending line. It has become somewhat of an icon of unfinished lines.
Works started twenty years ago, as a supposed-to-be upgrading of the classic line. Enough said. The platform is finished (excepting a viaduct at Cambrils and a trench at Vilaseca), but after 20 years of being unused it has deteriorated, so it will need some minor upgrading.
Looks like works have AT LAST restarted very recently, but with very few workers. 
This is another one of the main sources of debate though, because even if it´s all been approved, this will involve the closing of the classic line stretch between Tarragona and Vandellos, which includes four rather used stations: Port Aventura, Salou, Cambrils, and L´Hospitalet de l´Infant. We still hope the classic line will be maintained, since it would be anti-economical to close it. 

b) Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona.
This is just the connecting section with Camp de Tarragona HSL station. Works are advanced, though stopped. This section was started much later than the rest of the stretch till Vandellos.

It will finally have Standard gauge till Castellon. No 3rd rail here.



> Is it already finished?


:hahaha: NO WAY!!!



> Will it be in standart gauge too?


See above. ^^



> *Valencia-Alacant:* Is there a plan to connect Valencia with an HSR to the new HSR direction Alacant? So a new line around: Valencia-La Encina?


Not so new, actually... :lol::lol::lol:

The HSL has been in service for many years *between Xativa and La Encina*, though in Iberian gauge. Here they are rebuilding and upgrading the old classic line (which had been abandoned between Moixent and La Encina, and left for the commuter trains only between Moixent and Xativa, and it was in single track, now it´s being double-tracked) to keep the Iberian gauge for the freight, since this is part of the old classic Madrid-Valencia main line. After the old classic line is rebuilt, works to change the gauge on the HSL will start.

*Between Xativa and Valencia*, the new HSL (built much later than Xativa-la Encina) is nearly finished, actually it even has the rails and everything excepting the signalling and catenary. It should have been opened more that a year ago by now, but for some unknown reason, works suddenly halted. 

When the Valencia-La Encina will FINALLY open, travel time will decrease by one hour between Valencia and Alicante. About time! :sly:



> Wikipedia says the following:
> _
> "Services from Lyon to Barcelona in under four hours are planned, probably in 2014, using the classic line in France between Perpignan and Nîmes. A new company jointly owned by RENFE and SNCF is to be formed to run services between Paris and Madrid. Ten new trains are to be purchased at a cost of €300 million."_
> 
> What are those 10 new trains and is the schedule still correct for "2014 AVE class 100 to France?" Will they indeed take the old trains for a border-crossing service?


Wikipedia hasn´t been updated.

Indeed, the initial idea was to buy 10 new double-decker TGV trains to Alstom.
That was scrapped due to budgetary reasons, and instead Renfe chose to upgrade the old 1992 AVE S-100 trains to make them able to run through France.



> How likely is a direct connection AVE/TGV Paris-Madrid via Montepellier-Perpignan and Girona?


As likely as the fact that in a week it will be possible (or at least this is what we presume), but you´ll have to still change trains at Figueres-Vilafant station. :yes:

This is due to Spanish Renfe AVE trains not having finished their homologation tests in France yet, and French Sncf TGV trains not having started their homologation tests in Spain yet. 

So they can´t do the whole Paris to Madrid line yet... but it´s only a matter of months.

Meanwhile, you´ll have to change at Figueres (if the French train is not delayed, the wait at the station will not be long, like 20 minutes or so).



> How accurate is this map? Is there something missing? Does anybody have a better or more up-to-date map?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HighSpeedSpain.png


Reasonably accurate, though there are some small errors, possibly due to the moment at which the map was concocted. 

Currently, the map should feature this:

-the whole Valladolid (Olmedo, not Valladolid itself) to Ourense line should be all yellow, since all of it is in works. Out the red parts then.

-same goes for Valladolid to Burgos, works reach Burgos now. Out the red parts too, yellow only.

-the colours between Murcia and Almeria should be inversed, the yellow part should be red, and vice-versa.

As for the rest, it´s quite correct. Though it might perhaps be a good idea to include the name "Barcelona" in it. :lol:



> Last question:
> Is there something like a year ticket for all of RENFE high-speed network (incl. AVE of course?) A ticket where you pay an annual fee and then get to ride as much as you like? In Germany it's the Bahncard100, in Swiss the Generalabo, so maybe there is something like that in Spain too? (I'm not talking of interrail)


No, we wish there was one... :dunno:



> Thank you so much for all your answers  Have a nice sunday!
> 
> Philllip


You are welcome Phillip, feel free to ask more.


----------



## 33Hz

Why is the Irun to Madrid line proposed to go via Burgos rather than via Pamplona and Plasencia de Jalor which could be shorter and offer the option of trains from West France to Barcelona?

Also, any possibility of a loop from Madrid Charmartin through the airport to the Barcelona line?


----------



## alserrod

33Hz said:


> Why is the Irun to Madrid line proposed to go via Burgos rather than via Pamplona and Plasencia de Jalor which could be shorter and offer the option of trains from West France to Barcelona?



That could be a very nice question that no one could answer me.

Trains Irun-Madrid with calls at Alsasua go via Valladolid.
Trains Pamplona-Madrid go via Calatayud

Take a look about distance between both cities.

Before Valladolid HSL there was one daily train that made Madrid-Pamplona-Irun but after Valladolid line it remained as Madrid-Pamplona.


If you ask me I would say that they are more interested in having full trains despite better journeys.




> Also, any possibility of a loop from Madrid Charmartin through the airport to the Barcelona line?



Wow!!!!... that's matter of opinion and we were talking about it in some Spanish thread.

Quick wrap-up:

- When building the line it could be possible to make trains departing from M.Chamartin instead of M.Atocha. That will help have a direct stop in the airport.

- So then it could be possible to have lines from Valladolid and Barcelona arriving to Chamartin, lines from Valencia and Sevilla arriving to Atocha and a by-pass in the Eastern Madrid for all those lines.

- Making a line under the airport (and all those terrains) would be really expensive, but making a tunnel under Madrid to connect both stations is being expensive too... and journey time to Madrid will remain the same, although time to airport would decrease.

Today no solutions except making tunnel under Madrid. As I said, matter of opinion.


----------



## Sunfuns

Iteresting discussion we are having here although I guess it's not quite the right thread :lol:

Spanish HSR is particularly interesting to me because a lot of things are going on at the same time even if slowly. Sure, there is a lot more activity in China but the names like Wuhan or Chongqing don't mean as much to me.


----------



## alserrod

Sunfuns said:


> Iteresting discussion we are having here although I guess it's not quite the right thread :lol:



In my opinion never mind!!!!. There are two international threads. This (supposed) for classic lines and another one for HSL.

But happy to talk about any topic somewhere...


----------



## gincan

Sunfuns said:


> How much more work is needed until the long dug Pajares base tunnel could be used?


Breakthrough was achieved on 13 September 2008, 4 years later and they still have not begun installing the rails and the electrical installations (14 months worth of construction), the superstructure is 99% finished though. Opening is now pushed back to late 2014 or early 2015.


----------



## JumpUp

*Trains as correspondance for planes?*

Hey,

thank you so much for all the answers concerning my questions. I got another thing to ask 

Now that many of the biggest citys in Spain are connected with AVE trains and basically run 300 km/h all their way they made a hard life for national airlines...

Are there any plans to connect the biggest airports of Spain (Madrid, Barcelona and perhaps Malaga and Alicante) with the AVE network? Then people for international or continental flights wouldn't need to take a domestic connecting-flight to Madrid Barajas or Barcelona. They could check in at their local AVE station and get carried by train directly to their flight.

In Germany there is this system where they use trains and give them a flight number (e.g. Frankfurt-Cologne or Frankfurt-Stuttgart) so that you basically step into a train while literally bording your plane... And if the train is late you don't need to worry about paying fees for another flight, as in theory, your ICE train runs as a Lufthansa flight!


----------



## alserrod

Until several decades ago, a railway stretch from Zaragoza to Tortosa was on service. Today it is closed (and all tracks do not remain there) from La Puebla de Hijar.

But tunnels and bridges remains.

In the village of Valdealgorfa they had invited everyone to a very curious detail.

Very close to the village there is a 2,1 km tunnel (quite long, considering the type of railway and that not many mountains in the surroundings).
The tunnel is exactly est-west so in March 21st and September 21st they invite everyone to go to the eastern side of the tunnel, very near to the village

Why?

Just because at 7.00 the sunlight will cross the whole tunnel and in the opposite side of the tunnel it will be able to see the sun.

It is an unique situation to see a 2,1 km tunnel plenty of sun light.


It requires just a detail: have a sunny day, but this year they had


Valdealgorfa is here:
https://maps.google.es/?ll=40.993243,-0.025198&spn=0.008794,0.021136&t=w&z=16


----------



## OriK

And no one took a picture? 

It sounds awesome!


----------



## alserrod

I'm afraid, I wasn't there. I knew about the old railway line and I read about town hall was promoting to have a visit in the exact date (but it wasn't weekend). I live 120 km or so away there.

If I had been there I would have taken some stunning pictures because there are not many 2,1 railway tunnels (and specially in an area without great mountains), not many 2,1 km tunnels without service... and with the detail that they are exactly, as can be seen in google maps, east-west.


----------



## alserrod

OriK said:


> And no one took a picture?
> 
> It sounds awesome!


Found it on the internet!!!!


Taken several years ago but the site remains the same.

The sun appearing from the another side of the 2,1 km tunnel


----------



## Sunfuns

alserrod said:


> Found it on the internet!!!!
> 
> 
> Taken several years ago but the site remains the same.
> 
> The sun appearing from the another side of the 2,1 km tunnel


The tunnel doesn't look to be entirely abandoned. Is it used as an local road now?


----------



## alserrod

Not exactly. It is used as a pedestrian and bike lane (called as "green lane" = "Via verde").

I'm not sure but I think that from Tortosa (in Catalonia, end of the line) until exactly this village, Valdealgorfa (in Aragon, middle of the line) all has been refurbished for them. Cars are not allowed there (however, there are some obstacles somewhere so they will not be able to cross). 
But you can use it for a walk or a bike round.

It is nice because it is flat as a former railway line. You will use former tunnels and bridges.


I'm not able to read the signal in the pannel in the right side in the tunnel entrance but colours and format are those related to this pedestrian path.


As an example... these images are from the same former railway line.


----------



## 437.001

*Accident in Northern Spain!!* 

A narrow gauge train has derailed in the Cantabria region, on the Santander-Oviedo line, near Casar de Periedo station. 
The train was a commuter (cercanías) Santander-Cabezón de la Sal.
Rocks fell on the track and the train couldn´t avoid them. There are several injured people, some grave.
Even though the accident has been grave, passengers have been very lucky since the trees have stopped the train from falling into the river Saja.
It´s stupid to say, but it could have been much, much worse.

http://www.eldiariomontanes.es/2013...os-heridos-descarrilar-tren-201304051847.html


----------



## 437.001

*FGC has uploaded to their Facebook page some pictures of the arrival at Rubi depot of their new rolling stock, class 113.* 
They are needed for the extensions at Terrassa (scheduled for next year) and Sabadell (scheduled for 2016, if I remember correctly).
I´m not sure whether they will be replacing class 111 (current oldest rolling stock FGC has) or not. 
The Terrassa and Sabadell extensions, both of them having a connection to Cercanías Renfe, are expected to increase ridership quite a bit on the line.

Here:



> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.441953772549526.1073741828.130096727068567&type=1


----------



## OriK

why do they always transport trains by road?! :nuts:


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## K_

OriK said:


> why do they always transport trains by road?! :nuts:


Not always. However, these sets are standard gauge, so transporting them over the Spanish railway network would be complicated.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Beside that, I doubt the standard gauge FGC tracks come anywhere near an Iberian gauge track.


----------



## alserrod

So do I. It is an independent network with no links to other network and partially used as underground.


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## K_

alserrod said:


> So do I. It is an independent network with no links to other network and partially used as underground.


The FGC standard gauge lines do cross the mixed gauge freight line north of Barcelona. In theory a connection could be installed, allowing standard gauge cars to be delivered on their own wheels, provided the factory is somewhere on the standard or mixed gauge network.

Where are these new FGC trains build btw?


----------



## alserrod

But think that starting in Pza. Catalunya, city centre, there are several branches where at the begining, sometimes one train runs every two minutes. They have considerate which of them are "underground" (calling at all stations within Barcelona city) and which ones are "commuter" (calling at some stations in Barcelona and going to the nearby).

It seems that any work to be done on the track will be almost impossible because the tunnel under the city.


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> The FGC standard gauge lines do cross the mixed gauge freight line north of Barcelona.


On different levels.



> In theory a connection could be installed, allowing standard gauge cars to be delivered on their own wheels, provided the factory is somewhere on the standard or mixed gauge network.


That is, if you demolished a number of houses in the very expensive town of Sant Cugat del Vallès, or cut the AP-7 motorway at Rubí, causing major traffic jams. 

So no.



> Where are these new FGC trains build btw?


Alstom factory at Santa Perpètua de Mogoda, a northern Barcelona suburb.

Though these are Alstom/CAF trains.


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> Alstom factory at Santa Perpètua de Mogoda, a northern Barcelona suburb.


In that case moving them by truck makes perfect sense...


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> In that case moving them by truck makes perfect sense...


Given the state and shape of the current network, it does, definitely.

By truck it takes much less, since Santa Perpètua to Rubí is only a few kilometers, by train it would take much longer.


----------



## gincan

K_ said:


> In theory a connection could be installed, allowing standard gauge cars to be delivered on their own wheels


Well, in 1938 during the Spanish civil war, there was a considrable effort undertaken to construct a connecting gallery between FGC Plaza Catalunya and Metro Transversal station Universidad, it would have been used to transport ordinance between the munition factories and the munition depot located in what is today L7 tunnel. The gallery was never finished, they hand dug something like 80% of it before giving up, it is now used as a storage facility by FGC.

Had that gallery been finished it could have been used today for delivering trains.


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## 437.001

I think it´s on a different level to the metro/Adif tunnel, so I can´t see how that could have been done.


----------



## 437.001

Trains in the Pajares pass, on the Leon-Oviedo-Gijon line, in 2011.
Stations featured are Pola de Lena, Campomanes, Puente de los Fierros, Malvedo, Linares-Congostinas, Navidiello, Pajares, Busgongo, and Villamanin.


----------



## 437.001

Talking about FGC, I´ve just found this video about Ferrocarriles Catalanes (CGFC), the private company which exploited the lines of the current FGC Llobregat-Anoia network.


----------



## AlexNL

I'm a bit of a train spotter myself, sometimes I like to stand along a line and take pictures of trains as they're coming by. For some time now, I've been wanting to visit Spain and take some pictures there as well. The railway maps posted here before are very helpful, together with Google Maps SunCalc I'll be able to find a nice spot to stand to take pictures.

A couple of weeks ago, I've been to the UK. Realtime Trains was very helpful to determine when a train would be approaching. For Belgium, I had Railtime and for France, I used the help of SNCF Direct. 

I've heard that some trains in Spain have very low frequencies. As I don't want to waste hours waiting near a deserted track, I'm trying to find similar information for Spain. Can somehere here point me in the direction of realtime departures (such as a mobile app or website) or timetables (possibly including freight)?

It would be very much appreciated. 

edit: I've taken a look at Android's Play Store, I've found two apps from Renfe. One is only for the Cercanías networks, the other does offer more information, but it only has a journey planner (from/to) and no realtime departure times.


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## alserrod

Try searching here.

http://www.renfe.com/EN/viajeros/index.html

They will appear all long distance and regional trains. Not commuter trains or freight.

You have to ask for an origin and destination. They will appear all the trains and clicking on any one of them all stops for it so you will know the official schedule.


Anyway, if you have problems with the page, if you wanna further information or just if you want to ask for some landscapes with a train, just post it here.


----------



## AlexNL

Thanks for your reply! It doesn't look like what I am looking for, as that page is a journey planner, not including realtime departure information. I'm looking for realtime information, such as offered by NS or SNCF. Both NS and SNCF have mobile apps as well, which helps while on the go.

On the ADIF website, I have found a page which offers realtime arrivals and departures. Is there some mobile version, or should I make one myself?

edit: Yes, there is! :banana:


----------



## alserrod

Try with this one:
http://positren.nebulacodex.com/?pos=40.416879,-3.703219,6

IT IS NOT AN OFFICIAL PAGE but just based on Adif database. In fact several forumers have found a little mistakes in the network. They will say which is its next station for any regional or long distance train.


----------



## AlexNL

That seems useful, thank you


----------



## alserrod

Is there any landscape you wanna go to take pictures?. We can recommend some of them


----------



## AlexNL

I haven't made up my mind yet (nor picked any dates), so suggestions would be very much appreciated. I live in the Netherlands and have a car available.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Variante de Pajares (50 km), located between León and the Asturies, will partially open within 1 or 2 years on a single broad gauge track electrified at 25 kV AC. There will be two stations for crossing and overtaking, but located around 40 km apart. The other track may open later. The base tunnel (25 km) suffer of serious water infiltrations. The existing single track line dating from 1881 will certainly be kept in operation for the time being, but after the opening of the second track I fear it will be closed.


----------



## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> The Variante de Pajares (50 km), located between León and the Asturies, will partially open within 1 or 2 years on a single broad gauge track electrified at 25 kV AC. There will be two stations for crossing and overtaking, but located around 40 km apart. The other track may open later. The base tunnel (25 km) suffer of serious water infiltrations. The existing single track line dating from 1881 will certainly be kept in operation for the time being, but after the opening of the second track I fear it will be closed.


Better than nothing, I guess. What kind of impact will it have on Madrid-Oviedo travel times? Has that been announced already? Hope they can eventually solve the water problem and use the tunnel to it's full specifications.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Better than nothing, I guess. What kind of impact will it have on Madrid-Oviedo travel times? Has that been announced already?


This tunnel alone will cut travel times by one hour.



> Hope they can eventually solve the water problem and use the tunnel to it's full specifications.


It´s a difficult case. There´s a lot of unexpected water.
This is one of the most challenging works Adif has come across.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> This tunnel alone will cut travel times by one hour.


I remember you saying it before, but I was wondering if the effect will be that large with this "half finished" version. 



437.001 said:


> It´s a difficult case. There´s a lot of unexpected water.
> This is one of the most challenging works Adif has come across.


I've heard that, but they have good engineers and a lot of experience. I trust they'll come up with some acceptable solution which doesn't cost extra billions. 

By the way about the old track - prevailing opinion here seems to be that it will be closed once the tunnel is fully functional. However, the tunnel eventually will be used by HS trains on standard gauge and thus it would mean that the only passenger traffic between Madrid and Oviedo will be high speed. Is that really reasonable? Isn't there also some freight traffic on the old line? Is the tunnel actually "cutting out" any stations which would lose service entirely if such a decision were to be made?


----------



## OriK

^^ Probably the impact will be mostly limited to schedules and frequencies...


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I remember you saying it before, but I was wondering if the effect will be that large with this "half finished" version.


It will be that large, single or double track.

Have a look at google maps: http://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&gs...ei=HomaUezzF8qN7Qbb4IDgDQ&sqi=2&ved=0CKUBELYD

I´ve put you in Pola de Lena, the northern end of the tunnel.
If you follow the classic line southbound till La Robla, you´ll immediately understand. 



> I've heard that, but they have good engineers and a lot of experience. I trust they'll come up with some acceptable solution which doesn't cost extra billions.


Fingers crossed. I´m not completely optimistic about that.



> By the way about the old track - prevailing opinion here seems to be that it will be closed once the tunnel is fully functional.


I´m still not sure about it. Looks like certain kind of trains could still use it.
Besides, the section of the old classic line between Pola de Lena and Puente de los Fierros is a part of the Cercanías C1 commuter line, so I seriously doubt it´ll be closed, that sector.



> However, the tunnel eventually will be used by HS trains on standard gauge and thus it would mean that the only passenger traffic between Madrid and Oviedo will be high speed. Is that really reasonable? Isn't there also some freight traffic on the old line? Is the tunnel actually "cutting out" any stations which would lose service entirely if such a decision were to be made?


We´re still not sure about what´s going to happen.
If politicians didn´t change their minds every three minutes, I guess I could give you a more accurate answer... :sleepy:


----------



## Sunfuns

I guess the luck of money simultaneously with the desire to look good is playing a bit of chaos with the decisions of those politicians. Spain is hardly an exceptional case in this regard.

Thanks for the map. Is the old line particularly picturesque? It sure does look very windy...


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I guess the luck of money simultaneously with the desire to look good is playing a bit of chaos with the decisions of those politicians. Spain is hardly an exceptional case in this regard.


Dunno. But I can assure you that we do not like this kind of switching attitudes.



> Thanks for the map. Is the old line particularly picturesque? It sure does look very windy...


It is VERY picturesque, one of the most scenic lines in Spain.
I can only recommend you to try it. Oh, and bring the umbrella if you do, Asturias is just as rainy as the UK (no joking, it actually is). :yes:


----------



## Think

We lacked here this image of the water infiltrations inside the 25 km tunnels, they are very serious:










Image by the journal La Nueva España.


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## Coccodrillo

Why one tunnel can be opened and the other not? Beside the obvious answer that only one tube suffer by water infiltrations, another answer may be that one tube has to be sued as drainage tunnel or to host water pumps. Boring a drainage tunnel might be a solution, then?

As for the operation of one tube only: it might be good to use it for intercity trains in both direction, but by freight only in one direction* like it is done in the Lötschberg base tunnel. In that way, and with Spanish rail traffic levels, it is highly unlikely there will be capacity problems, even with 40 km of single track.

*likely towards central Spain, as it's the direction where the old line probably has the longer and steeper grade


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> It is VERY picturesque, one of the most scenic lines in Spain.
> I can only recommend you to try it. Oh, and bring the umbrella if you do, Asturias is just as rainy as the UK (no joking, it actually is). :yes:


Certainly in the plan in some not too distant future. I've been in Spain several times, but two major areas are missing - North coast and Madrid. Maybe next year - this year I've already visited Lisbon and we're leaving for South Italy next week :cheers:


----------



## alserrod

Several routes in railway in Spain that can worth because landscapes:

- Leon-Asturias (this one that 437.001 wrote about)
- Madrid-Avila (and you will be dissapointed because the landscapes starts in the whole Madrid city)
- Barcelona-St. Vicenç de Calders (you can reach for regional or commuter trains, these ones stopping at all stations)
- Huesca-Canfranc (or conversely. There are three daily buses served by SNCF Oloron-Canfranc so you can reach for timetables).
- Alsasua-San Sebastian (all the Basque country inner)


and so on... they are really a lot of landscapes available from the train.
Furthermore... several high speed lanes can be quite nice too.


----------



## 437.001

The new touristic train *"El Canfranero"*, which uses the Canfranc line between Sabiñánigo and Canfranc, on the *Tardienta-Huesca-Canfranc line*.

At *Sabiñánigo*:






Inside of one of the coaches:






Leaving *Sabiñánigo* station:






Between Jaca and Canfranc:






Entering *Sabiñánigo* station:






On the way from Jaca to Canfranc:






Passing *Villanúa* station:






Arriving at *Canfranc* station:






Loco 334.028 manoeuvring at *Canfranc* station:











Feeding diesel to the loco:






Back to *Sabiñánigo*:


----------



## alserrod

Tx for videos.

A huge former international station with only two daily trains today.

As first time in the history, a touristic train ran for five days.

Hope to see it next summer.


----------



## 437.001

A class 592 DMU, on a Cercanías Renfe commuter service (line C1) bound for Alicante, at *Murcia* station.



sergioytomas said:


>


----------



## pedrorizza

I love trains! It's beautiful.


----------



## bagus70

The El Canfranero train livery looks like the Orient Express one. I wonder if at one time they were related?

Nice train nevertheless.


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## 437.001

*News*: EMU trains class 490 (Alaris) have been withdrawn from service, seemingly due to some problems with the bogies.
We hope it´s a temporary measure.

They´ve been replaced with available material (Talgo, Arco, S-121, S-599...).


----------



## 437.001

^^
Here´s proof: Intercity 0582 Albacete-Valencia (formerly an Alaris), calling at *Almansa station*, with loco 252-059-1 pulling three Arco coaches. 
They have replaced the Alaris served by a class S-490 EMUs since their withdrawal from service:



bencenico71 said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Cartagena-Feve station*.
A class 2900 automotor, usual material at the Cartagena-Los Nietos narrow gauge line.



sergioytomas said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Barcelona to Mataró line*.
Between *Cabrera de Mar-Vilassar de Mar* and *Mataró* stations.

This line is the oldest railway in Spain, built in 1848, all along the sea.
That was cheap, back then, but it´s become a problem over the years, since the line is fragile, and it is very very difficult to increase capacity (which is needed).

This is an excellent, and very unusual video.

It shows the fight of Renfe staff against the worst enemy of the line: gale.
Gale can cut the service on the line completely, making it a mess in the rush hour (the line gets very busy at peaks).


----------



## Sunfuns

Amazing video indeed! There must be tons of problems with corrosion... Have there been any solutions proposed? Moving the line 30-50 m inland (lot of houses?) or building a viaduct 3-4 m high perhaps?


----------



## Xoser_barcelona

Sunfuns said:


> Amazing video indeed! There must be tons of problems with corrosion... Have there been any solutions proposed? Moving the line 30-50 m inland (lot of houses?) or building a viaduct 3-4 m high perhaps?


There are plans to build a new line further inland, but a couple of KM I think. Even though a viaduct would alleviate problems and actually allow easier access to the beaches, building an elevate construction along the Maresme coast would be an even bigger crime than some of the visual medicide that has already taken place (Huge Chimneys, appartments on the beach almost etc)

They should cut the line north of Mataro (leaving a more sporadic service to places north of mataro) and change the current line into a tram and connect it to the besos system at Sant Andreu.

Money won't be available for anything but the basic maintenace though until at least 1000 years from now hno:


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Amazing video indeed! There must be tons of problems with corrosion... Have there been any solutions proposed? Moving the line 30-50 m inland (lot of houses?) or building a viaduct 3-4 m high perhaps?


There was talk about building a new line inland. Nothing serious, obviously, as it would involve HUGE tunnelling.

The problem is where to start, because this line follows the sea front from Sant Adrià de Besòs to Malgrat de Mar, like 50 km, more or less.

Every coastal town in the region of the Maresme (the coastal region north of Barcelona till the limit with the Girona province at Blanes, where the Maresme ends and the Costa Brava begins) has the railway barrier.

Right now, we can´t afford it, and we won´t in many many years, but the only solution to recover the sea front would be removing the railway to another place, inland. 
Putting it in a viaduct would be a crime, aesthetically, though it would solve many problems, there´s no doubt about it. 

And no, a tramway wouldn´t be a solution at all, since no tramway has the length of an 8-car Civia train, nor its capacity. The problem is that it is precisely that, capacity, the thing that this line needs the most.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Every coastal town in the region of the Maresme (the coastal region north of Barcelona till the limit with the Girona province at Blanes, where the Maresme ends and the Costa Brava begins) *has the railway barrier*.


I'm afraid I don't understand this part...

Sure tunnelling would the ultimate solution, but it's also clear that there is no money for it anytime soon so I didn't mention it. As you are probably aware Italians are slowly doing something very similar by moving their old line on the Ligurian coast (maybe not this close) between Genoa and Ventimiglia to a new line mostly in tunnels. It has taken decades and no doubt cost billions...


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I'm afraid I don't understand this part...


For "railway barrier" I meant this:



437.001 said:


> *Line R1*.
> *Sant Pol de Mar station*.
> 
> Like many stations on this line, it´s on the beach:
> 
> 
> 
> Wikipedia: Enfo
> 
> 
> 
> Wikipedia: Enfo


The railway acts as a barrier, there are few overpasses or underpasses.



Sunfuns said:


> Sure tunnelling would the ultimate solution, but it's also clear that there is no money for it anytime soon so I didn't mention it. As you are probably aware Italians are slowly doing something very similar by moving their old line on the Ligurian coast (maybe not this close) between Genoa and Ventimiglia to a new line mostly in tunnels. It has taken decades and no doubt cost billions...


Indeed, the cost of taking the Mataró line away from the coast would be crazy.


----------



## Sunfuns

Now I understand 

Cost would be enormous, but it might happen some day in the more distant future anyway and if it does then the old right of way could be converted to marine promenades and bike paths. That's what happened in some Ligurian towns.


----------



## OriK

The fact that both N-II and that railway were built in the same place makes me to think that there were no other way then, and probably there aren't other feasible solutions today but maybe a tunel under the current railway in the most conflictive points...


----------



## 437.001

OriK said:


> The fact that both N-II and that railway were built in the same place makes me to think that there were no other way then, and probably there aren't other feasible solutions today but maybe a tunel under the current railway in the most conflictive points...


I don´t understand what you´re talking about.


----------



## OriK

^^ N-II and that railway were built along the same coastal corridor, they are at most, 200 meters away one from the another.

I might be completely wrong, but this makes me to think that, due to the orography, there aren't other natural corridors availlable near that railway to build a new railway so IMHO moving the railway further inland would be unaffordable (even if the current engineering is able to do it as opposed to when both infraestructures were built). Another option that could be feasible would be to put the railway partly underground in the most conflictive points but in the very same location.

I'm thinking in something similar to what they did in Leganés (but digging a bit to create the entrenchment that there was in Leganés to avoid raising the land level too much).

But I might be completely wrong, I think it could be a cheap and feasible solution, but maybe the leaking water could make it as unaffordable as the other solutions, or the disruption in the service during the works could be socially "unaffordable" as well.


----------



## Metred

Narrow-gauge Euskotren EMU 900 series (numbered UT 901, named "Lasarte-Oria") crossing a bridge over the river Bidasoa on the commuter line Lasarte-Hendaia (Basque Country)



> Por fin la primera por MACD 3, en Flickr


----------



## alserrod

That's an international bridge, btw


----------



## arctic_carlos

OriK said:


> ^^ N-II and that railway were built along the same coastal corridor, they are at most, 200 meters away one from the another.
> 
> I might be completely wrong, but this makes me to think that, due to the orography, there aren't other natural corridors availlable near that railway to build a new railway so IMHO moving the railway further inland would be unaffordable (even if the current engineering is able to do it as opposed to when both infraestructures were built). Another option that could be feasible would be to put the railway partly underground in the most conflictive points but in the very same location.
> 
> I'm thinking in something similar to what they did in Leganés (but digging a bit to create the entrenchment that there was in Leganés to avoid raising the land level too much).
> 
> But I might be completely wrong, I think it could be a cheap and feasible solution, but maybe the leaking water could make it as unaffordable as the other solutions, or the disruption in the service during the works could be socially "unaffordable" as well.


Both things would be really expensive; putting underground the current line is extremely costly as it runs just next to the sea, so the cost of building a tunnel there would be really high. On the other hand, if the line is moved a few kilometers inside, there are two possibilities: one would be to create an underground corridor running under all the urban centers; the other would be a mostly above ground line following the C-32 highway corridor. The problem with that solution is that all urban centers would be further than now from the railway, and therefore people would have a more difficult access to the stations.

In my opinion nothing can be done without causing much trouble to the users or spending a huge load of money. Perhaps a new mostly above ground line could be built between Barcelona and Mataró following the highway, but just for trains going norther than that city, which wouldn't stop between these two cities (or maybe only in a couple of stations, strategically located), in an express service. Local trains between Barcelona and Mataró would continue using the current line.

In addition, the line north of Arenys de Mar is single-tracked, which limits its capacity. Currently it's really difficult to double-tracking it, since a second track would invade the sea promenade or event the beach of a lot of towns. In the past that wouldn't have been a problem because people didn't care much about it, but nowadays most inhabitants and town halls of those towns would be strongly against it. So double-tracking unavoidably means tunneling under towns like Pineda, San Pol or Canet de Mar. Fortunately, north of Calella N-II is not directly located next to the railway, but a few kilometers inland, creating a wide corridor where tunneling wouldn't be difficult (and maybe some surface sections could be built).

Finally, it would be great if the line could be extended from Blanes to Lloret de Mar, this town needs a rail connection.


----------



## 437.001

arctic_carlos said:


> Finally, it would be great if the line could be extended from Blanes to *Lloret de Mar, this town needs a rail connection*.


But Lloret de Mar doesn´t want it. :dunno:


----------



## AlexNL

437.001 said:


> But Lloret de Mar doesn´t want it. :dunno:


Idiots. :nuts:


----------



## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> Idiots. :nuts:


:dunno:

Renfe (that was before the split between Renfe and Adif) had made the land reservations to build it, but the town rejected it, because they feared that the tourism would go to Barcelona instead of staying at Lloret.

It has to be said that there is a good bus link between Blanes station and Lloret de Mar, and that a branch to Lloret de Mar would have been expensive and would have involved tunnels, too.

Those reserved lands were returned to their previous owners. Part of it was built and it´s imposible to use nowadays.


----------



## 437.001

*Seville-Cadiz line*.
Pictures of the upgrade works.
This is the last section in which the 'heavy' part of the works started, between Utrera and Las Cabezas de San Juan stations.
The rest of the line between Las Cabezas de San Juan and Cadiz is finished or at a very advanced stage.

The line is being double-tracked and adapted to 220 km/h. 

Photos were taken some 3 km south of Utrera station:


javi el geo said:


>


----------



## 437.001

^^ I´ve edited the former post with some photos.


----------



## Sunfuns

Will it be Spanish gauge or standard? The current travel time is about 1 h 40 min (renfe.com) for just 125 km. What kind of improvement is likely to be achieved here? 

By the way the landscape in those photos looks really nondescript. One could convince me that it's in Sweden instead...


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Will it be Spanish gauge or standard?


Spanish, with polyvalent sleepers. 3 kV.



> The current travel time is about 1 h 40 min (renfe.com) for just 125 km. What kind of improvement is likely to be achieved here?


Double-tracking. The sector in the picture sees a regional train almost every hour, plus commuter trains, plus Alvia. 



> By the way the landscape in those photos looks really nondescript. Once could convince me that it's in Sweden instead...


Yesterday they had 47ºC in Seville. :naughty: So no, not like Sweden.


----------



## Sunfuns

Seville in summer or Sweden in winter? Tough decision, but I think I'd opt for the cold


----------



## OriK

At least you don't need a fridge to cool your beers hahaha


----------



## 437.001

*Seville-Cadiz line*.
More photos of the upgrade works.



javi el geo said:


>





javi el geo said:


>


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Seville in summer or Sweden in winter? Tough decision, but *I think I'd opt for the cold*


Me too, but you don´t have to leave Spain to have cooler weather. The Atlantic northern coast can do, and so do the Pyrenees... 



OriK said:


> At least you don't need a fridge to cool your beers hahaha


Today some Burgos tourists have told me that yesterday in Burgos they had 7ºC.

You know... _"en Burgos sólo hay dos estaciones, el invierno... y la del tren"_ (for translators, in Spanish "estación" means "station" but also "season" ).


----------



## Sunfuns

This line looks unusually straight for an old railway, no wonder it's possible to upgrade it for 220 km/h.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> This line looks unusually straight for an old railway, no wonder it's possible to upgrade it for 220 km/h.


:?

Many lines of the railway network in Spain have long alignments.

But it´s also the second most mountainous country in Europe after yourselves, so we get a mix of everything.


----------



## 437.001

*Yera station*.
*Santander-Cidad Dosante line (unfinished, never opened)*.

The station is the building "on top", on the other side of the valley.
This line was supposed to run between Calatayud, Soria, Burgos, Cidad Dosante and Santander. 
The section between Cidad Dosante and Santander was never finished.
The rest of the line (which had no level crossings, btw), was closed in 1985.

I love this picture. 



*Photo by Daniel Muñoz* @ Wikipedia


----------



## gincan

Sunfuns said:


> This line looks unusually straight for an old railway, no wonder it's possible to upgrade it for 220 km/h.


Well, they are building an entirely new superstructure beside the old track that I guess will be dismantled and turned into a Vía Verde. http://www.viasverdes.com/GreenWays


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Cáceres-Valencia de Alcántara line*.

Trains near *Griñón station *and between Griñón and Illescas.
Griñón station (now closed) will be upgraded, as well as the line, which will be electrified and quite possibly double-tracked between Humanes and Illescas, for one of the next extensions of the Madrid Cercanías Renfe commuter network.


----------



## 437.001

*Alicante-Denia narrow gauge line*.
Cab rides from Denia to Alicante-Luceros.

Those who know the Costa Blanca might be aware of this line. 

Part of it is now a tram-train, the rest is yet to be modernized... but there´s also some plan to finally build a 'classic' line from Gandia to Alicante, maybe by upgrading this line (bits of it, at least), or maybe by building an entirely new line. 



From Alicante-Luceros to Sangueta:






From Sangueta to La Isleta, and Lucentum:






From La Isleta to Lucentum, and Carrabiners:






From Carrabiners to El Campello:






From El Campello to Cala Piteres:






From Cala Piteres to Venta Lanuza:






From Venta Lanuza to Montiboli:






From Montiboli to Creueta:






From Creueta from Hospital Vila:






From Hospital Vila to Benidorm:






From Benidorm to Alfàs del Pi:






From Alfàs del Pi to Altea:






From Altea to Olla de Altea: 






From Calpe to Olla de Altea:






From Benissa to Calpe:






From Teulada to Benissa:






From Teulada to Gata de Gorgos:






From Denia to Gata de Gorgos:


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.

This line is being upgraded, as part of the additional works for the Madrid-Galicia HSL, it includes some rather spectacular new sections, which make it almost a HSL.

New section Pontevedra to Arcade, and also view of the pillars of the viaduct over the Estuary of Arousa and the upgrade at Vilagarcia de Arousa station:



asannei said:


>


Section Arcade-Pontevedra:



REGFA said:


> *Author Estrella920*
> 
> After passing the new Arcade station and the false tunnel the line crosses the new viaduct over river Verdugo:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viaduct over river Ullo and Fontequente tunnel, south side. Freight train Pontevedra-Taboadela:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viaduct over river Ullo, seen from the north:
> 
> 
> 
> Viaduct of O Marco (Figueirido), seen from the south:
> 
> 
> 
> Vilaboa, entering Pontevedra:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks to the author.



Arcade station:



zoltan said:


>


Scheme of the future rail yard of Pontevedra station:



zoltan said:


>


Pictures taken between the Lérez tunnel and Pontevedra station:



velbert said:


> Tunnel and viaduct over river Lérez:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pontevedra-Universidade station:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just before Pontevedra station:
> 
> 
> 
> Pontevedra station:


----------



## 437.001

*Corunna station*.

A Barcelona-Corunna "shadow" Trenhotel, entering Corunna station pulled by a class 334 loco.
We can also see a class S-730 Alvia, and another class 334 loco.
A "shadow" train in Spain is one that doubles the official train in peak services (Christmas, for instance), with a more or less similar timetable, and sometimes different stops.



REGFA said:


> Coruña por ***REGFA***, en Flickr


----------



## 437.001

*RARE VIDEO*

*Madrid Atocha-Móstoles El Soto line*.
*Las Águilas* station.

A class 449 EMU passing Las Águilas station (in Madrid city) at low speed. :uh::?
Regional rail rolling stock are not expected to be found here at all, since this is line C5, exclusive for commuter rail.

I don´t know what the hell was this train doing here, but I seem to remember having read about some rare maintenance at Móstoles-El Soto depot.
I´ll tell you more as soon as I get more info.


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Hendaye classic line*.
*Valladolid-Universidad* station.

Photos of the station, including an Alvia S.130 coming from Castellon and bound for Gijon.



jl5 said:


>


----------



## 437.001

437.001 said:


> *Madrid Atocha-Móstoles El Soto line*.
> *Las Águilas* station.
> 
> A class 449 EMU passing Las Águilas station (in Madrid city) at low speed. :uh::?
> Regional rail rolling stock are not expected to be found here at all, since this is line C5, exclusive for commuter rail.
> 
> I don´t know what the hell was this train doing here, but I seem to remember having read about some rare maintenance at Móstoles-El Soto depot.
> I´ll tell you more as soon as I get more info.


Got the answer.
Actually, Actren have a regional rail maintenance base at Móstoles-El Soto.
I was unaware of this. :uh:


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ I see that Plasencia and Mérida lie quite far away from the main Madrid-Badajoz line and serving them require reversing direction, which is time consuming. Arte there plans to skip them on some services, when the sections of single track diesel HSLs will open?


----------



## AlexNL

I love the look of those Talgo 250's... they might look a little less polished than a Velaro or TGV Duplex, but the design is very characteristic.


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ I see that Plasencia and Mérida lie quite far away from the main Madrid-Badajoz line and serving them require reversing direction, which is time consuming.


Mérida is on the main Madrid-Badajoz line, which is the one through Ciudad Real, not the one through Cáceres. 
The part between Parla and Ciudad Real of this line closed in 1988 (iirc), as much of it became the Madrid-Seville HSL.
The Cáceres line is Madrid-Cáceres-Valencia de Alcántara.
And the Cáceres-Aljucén line is a different one.
The Plasencia branch is the surviving spur of the old transversal line Monfragüe-Salamanca-Zamora-Astorga.



Coccodrillo said:


> Are there plans to skip them on some services, when the sections of single track diesel HSLs will open?


Some services already skip Plasencia, but it´s a city of a certain importance (population around 40,000), so there´s an interest on having trains calling there.

As for skipping Mérida, that would be rather crazy: it´s the capital of Extremadura and it´s the main crossroads of the region. 
To skip Mérida can only be envisaged once the Portuguese finish their part of the line, allowing Madrid-Lisbon services, and still, I´d only envisage that for the peak hour trains (which could be direct Madrid-Lisbon without any intermediate stop).



AlexNL said:


> I love the look of those Talgo 250's... they might look a little less polished than a Velaro or TGV Duplex, but the design is very characteristic.


I´ve never fancied them a lot... :dunno:


----------



## 437.001

*Barcelona-Vic-Ripoll-Puigcerdà/Latour-de-Carol (France) line*.

Photos taken at the freight terminal in Vic.

-a class 447 EMU on a regional service bound for Ripoll:



voltrega62 said:


>


-a freight train with a class 253 loco:



voltrega62 said:


>


The same freight train, seen between Vic and Balenyà-Tona-Seva stations:



voltrega62 said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.

River Ulla viaduct.

This time *Papos* has gone a bit arty... :doh: :drool: :master:



Papos said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Castellbisbal station*

This is in suburban Barcelona.

This is the junction of the Barcelona Sants-Castellbisbal-Martorell-Sant Vicenç de Calders line, with the Castellbisbal-Cerdanyola Universitat-Mollet Sant Fost line. 

The station is also located right next to the Madrid-Barcelona HSL, so it´s a favourite for trainspotters.

Very soon, heavy upgrade works will start here, as standard gauge (with 3rd rail) will be taken from Rubí to Tarragona and further south into Eastern Spain.



carlesnuc said:


>





carlesnuc said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Albacete-Los Llanos station.*

Used by the Madrid-Alcázar de San Juan-Albacete-Chinchilla-La Encina-Alicante classic line, and by the Madrid-Cuenca-Albacete-Alicante HSL.

The station is in the city centre.

One of Spanish stations with a McDonalds inside. 
This one has also a full shopping mall... :naughty: ... and a cinema. :uh:



FanSSC said:


>



Plus some 3D photos:



FanSSC said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*¡¡NEWS!!*

:siren: 

Upgrade works going on between Zafra and Llerena, on the *Seville-Zafra-Mérida line*.

Source: a Twit by an Adif technician, containing this pic:



>


----------



## 437.001

*News*

:speech:



> *Spain to increase rail spending by 21% in 2014*
> 
> RAIL will remain Spain's top transport priority in 2014 according to the Ministry of Public Works and Transport's draft budget published last week, accounting for 51% of the total planned investment of €8.98bn. Rail spending will increase by 21% from €3.78bn this year to €4.58bn in 2014.
> 
> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...e-rail-spending-by-21in-2014.html?channel=522


----------



## 437.001

*Electrification of Medina del Campo-Salamanca line.*

:siren:

Looks like electrification works have only just started:



ELZIPO32 said:


> (Photo Afzamorana)


----------



## 437.001

*Alicante-Benidorm-Denia line*.

Although the section between Alicante and Benidorm has bene transformed into a tram-train, the stretch between Benidorm and Denia is still full railway, like always. 

A class 2300 DMU, near Calpe. 
The 2300 owned by FGV are the only remaining ones in Spain, all the other ones that Feve and FGC used to have have been withdrawn.
Some the oldest rolling stock in Spain in regular service... 



sergioytomas said:


>


----------



## Neb81

437.001 said:


> :speech:


Great news for the unfinished projects out there, and the passengers waiting for them. Also good for the economy, as this will help support the construction industry move beyond the housing bubble.


----------



## 437.001

Let´s see how it goes though.


----------



## 437.001

*Torralba-Soria line*.
Between *Coscurita* and *Matamala* stations.

Photos (taken on October 19, 2013) of the current upgrade works, consisting of replacing rail, sleepers and ballast.



riveratorres said:


> (translation into English by *437.001*)
> 
> Last Monday saw the restart of the upgrade works from Coscurita (km 43+300) till Matamala.
> They had been halted for three years due to austerity.
> This week, after working day and night, renovation has reached km 44+700.
> 
> In this pic we see the DMU 592.224 in charge of the TRD 17303 running through km 43+300 (beginning of the works):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More images of km 43+300 (state of the track looking towards Soria):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From km 43+800 till km 44+700 speed has been temporarily limited to 30km/h:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Coscurita station (km 43+100) till km 43+800, speed has been limited to 60km/h:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since there are works day and night, there are some diesel generators to allow the lighting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The works have reached this point (km 44+700):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More images of the section in works:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New life for Coscurita station (which has been recently closed for passenger service. Coscurita used to be the junction between the Torralba-Soria and the Valladolid-Ariza lines. Valladolid-Ariza line was closed in 1985):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greetings. :wave:


----------



## 437.001

*Monforte de Lemos station*.

Monforte de Lemos is located in the Lugo province (in Galicia).
This is the junction of the Leon-Astorga-Ponferrada-Monforte-Lugo-Corunna line and the Monforte-Ourense-Guillarei-Redondela-Vigo line.

Pictures taken the morning of an August day. 

Arco Corunna/Vigo-Bilbao/Hendaye:



palme86 said:


>




A freight train carrying wood, operated by Takargo: 



palme86 said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.
*Barbanza* station.



Rusty_Chicken said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Torralba-Soria line*. 
*Coscurita* station and surroundings.

Photos (taken on October 19, 2013) of the current upgrade works between Coscurita and Matamala stations, consisting of replacing rail, sleepers and ballast.



riveratorres said:


> (translation into English by *437.001*)
> 
> More photos of the works between km 43+300 and 44+700:
> 
> Junction of two rail sections, on the right the one that was upgraded in 2008, on the left the current section in works:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beginning of the temporary speed limitation to 60km/h at the exit of Coscurita station towards Almazán and Soria:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Entrance to Coscurita station on the north side.
> To the right, the line to Almazán-Villa and Soria.
> To the left, the old line to Valladolid, via Almazán-Dehesa, Aranda de Duero and Peñafiel, closed in 1985.
> Trains to Soria have to reduce the speed to 70km/h due to this strange 'chicane'.
> It hasn´t been removed to cut costs, I guess, and anyway, the essential was to replace the old rails and wood sleepers, which were old and outdated:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More images around Coscurita station:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DMU 592.224, on a TRD service bound for Madrid-Chamartín, running through Coscurita:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greetings. :wave:


----------



## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> *Barcelona-Sant Boi-Martorell-Manresa line.
> Martorell-Central station.*
> 
> A freight train (designed to carry salt), stationed in one of the sidings that lead to the Solvay factory.
> Note the triple rail (for both Iberian and metric gauge).


In Barcelona's port there are even triple gauge tracks, also with switches, but in the photo I saw one of them (I don't remember which one) out of use (not linked to other tracks of the same gauge).


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Guadalajara-Torralba-Calatayud-Zaragoza-Barcelona line.
Vallecas station.*

_The same class 451 EMU as in two posts above ^^, this time at Vallecas station in Madrid city, shortly before its arrival at Villaverde Bajo to be repainted:_ 



Manamer said:


>


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> In Barcelona's port there are even triple gauge tracks, also with switches, but in the photo I saw one of them (I don't remember which one) out of use (not linked to other tracks of the same gauge).


Which photo are you talking about?


----------



## 437.001

*Murcia-Lorca-Almendricos-Águilas line*.
*Totana station*. 

_Class 592 DMU on a Cercanías C2 service bound for Murcia:_



sergioytomas said:


>


----------



## Metred

At left, the Iberian gauge Renfe regional from Irun (Basque Country) to Miranda de Ebro (Castile and Leon), at right narrow gauge Euskotren Trena commuter-rail train from Lasarte to Hendaia. Basque Country.


Cruces en Araso por MACD 3, en Flickr


----------



## 437.001

^^ That´s near *Gaintxurizketa* station, isn´t it?


----------



## 437.001

*Seville-Santa Justa station*.

The main station in Seville, this is the terminus for the Madrid-Seville HSL (AVE services for Madrid, Valencia and Barcelona, Alvia services for Cádiz and Gijón, and Avant services for Málaga), a remaining Long Distance train (a Talgo for Barcelona via Alcázar de San Juan-Albacete-Valencia), and it also sees lots of commuter trains (Cercanías Renfe, five different lines) and some regional rail services (to Osuna, Cádiz, Málaga, Almería, Córdoba, Jaén, Huelva and Cáceres). 

The station is not yet linked to the tramway nor the metro of Seville... hno:



carlesnuc said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Malaga-Maria Zambrano station*.

The main station in Malaga (which will be connected to the metro-tram network, currently in the final stages of construction) has eight bay platforms, three in Iberian gauge for regional rail (for Seville via Osuna), and five in standard gauge for HSL (AVE to Madrid, Valencia and Barcelona, Avant to Seville via Cordoba). It also has two underground through platforms, for the commuter trains (Cercanías Renfe, to Alora, the airport, Torremolinos and Fuengirola). From one of the sidings starts the branch line to the port of Malaga.



carlesnuc said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Branch line from Malaga-Maria Zambrano station to the port of Malaga*.

It´s not very busy, so to speak...



carlesnuc said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Ponferrada-Villablino line*.
*Alinos loop*, between Toreno and Matarrosa del Sil stations.

This private line is now closed, it seems (or at least, sees no traffic).
Albeit it used to see passenger trains, it stopped decades ago, and it became a freight-only line.
It also was the last line to have regular steam trains in Spain, until the 1980s.



palme86 said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Seville-Santa Justa station*.

_Trains:_



carlesnuc said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Malaga-Maria Zambrano station*.

_Trains:_



carlesnuc said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Ponferrada-Villablino line*.

Current state, after more than one year without any train:



palme86 said:


>


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ For those that don't know it, is a metre-gauge line lastly used only for coal trains and without connection with the European network.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrocarril_Ponferrada_-_Villablino



Coccodrillo said:


> In Barcelona's port there are even triple gauge tracks, also with switches, but in the photo I saw one of them (I don't remember which one) out of use (not linked to other tracks of the same gauge).





437.001 said:


> Which photo are you talking about?


I can't find anymore the photo showing switches, but I found this one:










And this one:










Then still about triple gauge tracks there is this one, taken by myself on 30.11.2011 in the national rail museum in New Delhi (however, these are just display tracks, very rarely used by moving trains). The gauges might be 750-1000-1676 but I'm not sure.


----------



## M-NL

437.001 said:


> *Seville-Santa Justa station*.
> *Branch line from Malaga-Maria Zambrano station to the port of Malaga*.
> *Ponferrada-Villablino line*. *Alinos loop*,
> *Seville-Santa Justa station*.
> *Malaga-Maria Zambrano station*.


Nice pictures, very nice stations, but where are the travellers? In a few you see a few people, but nowhere near enough to justify the large stations.


----------



## arctic_carlos

M-NL said:


> Nice pictures, very nice stations, but where are the travellers? In a few you see a few people, but nowhere near enough to justify the large stations.


People often try to make this kind of photographs without people appearing on them... 

Some Spanish stations have few passengers, especially those located far from the cities they serve, but that is not the case neither in Sevilla nor in Málaga, as they are the 4th and 6th Spanish cities in terms of population and their stations have a central location and a lot of services, both have HSR and Cercanías (commuter trains).


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## 437.001

^^
Indeed, it´s just that *carlesnuc* chooses to have fair shots with not a lot of people.
I might tell him to show the people one day, but in the end, they´re his pictures, so it´s his choice.

But I like a lot the approach of *minato_ku*´s, too. They show things the way they really are more.


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.

Bridge over river Lérez, near Pontevedra, with a class 599 DMU.



REGFA said:


> Pontevedra por ***REGFA***, en Flickr


----------



## 437.001

*Back cab ride from Burgos to León*, via the Venta de Baños by-pass.
The train is an Alvia Barcelona-Corunna (or Barcelona-Vigo?), served by a class 130 train.


----------



## 437.001

*Barcelona port*.

In some tracks, we can see triple-gauge. 



zoltan said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.

River Ulla viaduct.



Papos said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Torralba-Soria line*.

_A class 599 DMU at *Soria station*, about to start an MD service to Madrid-Chamartin_:



riveratorres said:


> Photo by courtesy of *Julio Gómez*.


----------



## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line.*

Pictures of the electrification of the section Medina del Campo-Salamanca. 
Works have already started between Campillo and Carpio del Campo stations.



Fruela said:


> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.744114865608104.1073742005.592265530793039&type=3#!/media/set/?set=a.744114865608104.1073742005.592265530793039&type=3


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## JB Colbert

Mare_nostrvm said:


> *Logroño's new railway integration.*
> 
> From min. 7:00 onward we can see how will be the new high sped train station of this city.


Hola!
I saw the presentation above linked, I found it very interesting, like each other spanish projects.
How is proceeding the construction of the new Logroño's railway integration?
Which step was achieved?

Muchas Gracias!


----------



## el palmesano

^^
here you can see it


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=808206&page=94


----------



## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line*.
A class 601 dual loco (also known as _Bitrac_) near *Salamanca* station.



Manamer said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/11220738606/


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.
River Ulla viaduct.



Papos said:


>


----------



## Sunfuns

I wonder how long it will take to finish the viaduct from this position. Another year perhaps?


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## 437.001

Yeah, a year, more or less.
I´m in love with this bridge.


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## Sunfuns

Yes, it is cool no doubt. Do you find it more impressive than the viaduct over the same river on the high speed line? That one seems to be shorter, but much taller.


----------



## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> *Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line*.
> A class 601 dual loco (also known as _Bitrac_) near *Salamanca* station.


AFAIK it is diesel and 3 kV only, so it will have to run on diesel power when this line will be electrified (in 25 kV).



437.001 said:


> I´m in love with this bridge.


I supposed it, you already posted dozen of photos of this bridge


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Yes, it is cool no doubt. Do you find it more impressive than the viaduct over the same river on the high speed line? That one seems to be shorter, but much taller.


They´re totally different. I love the both of them.



Coccodrillo said:


> AFAIK it is diesel and 3 kV only, so it will have to run on diesel power when this line will be electrified (in 25 kV).


I don´t think that class 601 will be seen very often on this line.



Coccodrillo said:


> I supposed it, you already posted dozen of photos of this bridge


Oh, those are just updates, I would post them even if I didn´t like them... :lol:
Btw, stay alert, there´s a few more updates to come tonight.


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.
*Vigo-Urzáiz station*. 

The station is being rebuilt completely (underground).



SKADA82 said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Torralba-Soria line*.
*Section Coscurita-Matamala*. 

Photos of the upgrade works.



riveratorres said:


> (_translated into English by *437.001*_)
> 
> *State of the works on 13 November 2013*
> 
> The upgrade works carry on, reaching km 52+400 (exception being made of Almazán-Villa station, between the level crossings of the N-111 and the Gómara road)
> 
> _The works at km 52+400_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Here, at km 51+600_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _In hindsight, the N-111 level crossing_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Level crossing for CL-101 road, at the entrance of Almazán-Villa station from the Coscurita (and Madrid) side_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Km 48+100_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Soon, the platforms for the level crossings will be installed_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Km 45+600, shortly before the Coscurita advanced signal_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _At *Coscurita station*, with DMU 599.004 ready to leave for Madrid with the passengers coming from Soria, Quintana Redonda, Tardelcuende and Almazán-Villa stations, who arrived here by bus_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Signal indicating that the station is open. We won´t see very often this aspect in the future (Coscurita station has been recently closed for passengers)_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _At 18:03, the bus arrives with the passengers_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _And at 18:09, on time, the train leaves for Madrid-Chamartín_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Watching the arrivals at Madrid-Chamartín at the Adif web, we find the TRD 17301 coming from Coscurita, an unusual arrival indeed_:
> 
> 
> 
> Regards.


----------



## 437.001

*Torralba-Soria line*.

Some pictures of the class 599 DMUs on the line:



riveratorres said:


> 599.002 at *Navalcaballo* (km 82+300)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 599.050 leaving *Soria* for Madrid-Chamartín:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the N-111 bridge:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unidentified 599 near km 79:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coupling 599.002+599.003 at *Soria* station:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The same coupling on the track for Madrid:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At km 85+300.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards. :wave:


----------



## 437.001

*Torralba-Soria line*.
*Section Coscurita-Matamala*.



alco2100 said:


> (_translated into English by *437.001*_)
> 
> *State of the upgrade works on 30 November 2013*:
> 
> _A ballast train coming from Almazán-Villa at Km 54.0 (the place is known as the Tejerizas bend), pulled by a class 333 loco, with some of the machines working on this renovation_:


----------



## 437.001

*Torralba-Soria line*.
*Soria station*.

Some images from 30 November 2013, with an unusual coupling of class 594 DMUs, more precisely 594.009 (original)+594.013 (reformed).



riveratorres said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Torralba-Soria line*.

DMU 594.009 at *Soria station*:



riveratorres said:


>




DMUs 594.009 and 594.105 (the latter doing the TRD 17304 Madrid-Soria), at *Almazán-Villa station*:



riveratorres said:


>


----------



## Sunfuns

Those are some excellent photos. Whoever made them has some skill in photography. The line looks really "lonely" though. How many trains a day does it have/will have?


----------



## alserrod

Two trains per day and another one on weekend. 
As far as I can remember, timetables remain the same since a long time. Perphaps some minutes more or less in departures but nothing special


----------



## JB Colbert

Only two passengers trains per direction or are there even freight trains?
Only trains to/from Madrid?

How many inhabitants are there in the region of this line?

Thank in you in advance!


----------



## alserrod

Soria is the second province capital with less population in Spain and all cities where trains call are really small. 
It is the huge problem in Spain, except in some cases, all population is in the coast and Madrid.

Having several lines like this one is to decide between investing in nowhere or isolation somewhere. It is like building an airport in an island with 10.000 people only (with ferry service). Do they need it?. It's matter of opinion. As well as Soria railway link.

Anyway, service could be improved. I would like to know what about having service only FROM the classic Madrid-Zaragoza line to Soria with three shuttle connections made by only one train (less maintenance).


Furthermore, in Soria there is no "railway culture" due to few services, even if it had four possible destinations in the past.

Why don't they make an alliance with a bus service to link in Calatayud through Barcelona via HSR?. There are only 90 km and other alliances with bus service have been made.


----------



## JB Colbert

Are there freigfht trains on the line to Soria?


----------



## 437.001

JB Colbert said:


> Are there freigfht trains on the line to Soria?


Not that I know. Soria is a bit "our Basilicata", if you know what I mean.


----------



## Sunfuns

Why was it singled out for major renovations then? Was it in worse condition than other other secondary lines in Spain?


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Why was it singled out for major renovations then?


It had been planned before the crisis, the works had already started by then, but they were postponed because of the crisis, austerity and etc.



Sunfuns said:


> Was it in worse condition than other secondary lines in Spain?


Yes.


----------



## gincan

Sunfuns said:


> Why was it singled out for major renovations then? Was it in worse condition than other other secondary lines in Spain?


Political reasons, this is the first railway in Spain I would close down to save money. It serve Soria 40000 inh and Almanzan 6000 inh. It would probably be cheaper to pay for free taxi rides for all the users of this railway than keep it open. It is a total waste of resources.

Unfortunately, in Spain every provincial capital has to be connected to Madrid, no matter how small it is, it is just ridiculous. At least they don't have an airport in Soria, although I'm sure they have considered it :nuts:


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## 437.001

gincan said:


> Political reasons, this is the first railway in Spain I would close down to save money. It serve Soria 40000 inh and Almanzan 6000 inh. It would probably be cheaper to pay for free taxi rides for all the users of this railway than keep it open. It is a total waste of resources.
> 
> Unfortunately, in Spain every provincial capital has to be connected to Madrid, no matter how small it is, it is just ridiculous. At least they don't have an airport in Soria, although I'm sure they have considered it :nuts:


Not every head of province is connected to Madrid. Thought you ought to know. :|


----------



## JB Colbert

437.001 said:


> Not that I know. Soria is a bit "our Basilicata", if you know what I mean.


I understood what you meant, but I think the most suitable analogy is with italian cities like Isernia or Sondrio; Basilicata is a Region comparable with La Rioja.

Thank you for your answer!


----------



## alserrod

gincan said:


> Political reasons, this is the first railway in Spain I would close down to save money. It serve Soria 40000 inh and Almanzan 6000 inh. It would probably be cheaper to pay for free taxi rides for all the users of this railway than keep it open. It is a total waste of resources.
> 
> Unfortunately, in Spain every provincial capital has to be connected to Madrid, no matter how small it is, it is just ridiculous. At least they don't have an airport in Soria, although I'm sure they have considered it :nuts:


They could, of course... but there are other things to have in consideration.

Why is there a cool bus service between Madrid and Soria, taking similar time and similar fares?. Just only because frequencies. This is why I honestly think that they could offer a most frequent service with "less kilometres". Just with a shuttle train and avoid trains with no passengers. You use a current regional train from Arcos de Jalon, make a link on timetables and offer three instead of two daily trains.

Less trains running in the whole network and a bigger offer.


Furthermore it is real that no population is there but... in a ring over 80 km from Madrid and up to 200 km there is no population never mind where you go. Some exceptions but completely deserted.

Not only a railway policy is required but a whole territory policy should apply.


----------



## JB Colbert

Another question 

I found a video like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8cowOgwVso

Is related to a line, I suppose, named Central de Aragòn.
The questions are:

Where is located and which cities are connected by this line?

Which type of traffic is prevalent on the line, passengers or freight?

How many trains per day are there?

To much questions...
Thank you in advance!


----------



## alserrod

It was a company to manage one line from Sagunto to Calatayud (from Calatayud to Soria, Burgos and Cidad Dosante, its natural way there was another company) and a branch from Caminreal to Zaragoza.

It dissappeared when all companies (except FEVE) were joined into Renfe.

Today Caminreal-Calatayud is closed to traffic (and to my best knowledge, almost impossible to re-open) and Sagunto-Caminreal Caminreal-Zaragoza remains open.

Nowadays there are three daily Valencia-Zaragoza (and vv), a Valencia-Teruel (not daily), a Teruel-Zaragoza (daily) which almost makes four trains per direction daily.
Furthermore, at least one freight daily too.

It is possible to buy a link-ticket Valencia-Bilbao with one of this trains and shuttle to an Alvia Barcelona-Bilbao at Zaragoza with just 15-ish minutes delay


----------



## JB Colbert

Thank you very much for the answer, I'm going to study the map to better understand where is located the line.

Due to the variety of the freight companies like Logitren, Comsa or Continental Rail, It seemed to me that there was much more freight traffic.


----------



## alserrod

It is not good for freight. It is not electrified and one track only. Some stations where trains could cross themselves are really small (about 300m only) and if you want to export any good to Valencia port you would need a longer train to save costs.
Furthermore, departing from Valencia and approaching to Teruel there is a mountain pass (and a station in the own pass, the highest in the region of Aragon, higher than Canfranc station). That means "climbing" from 0m to 1200ish m in about 100 km. Not good for freight at all.

Any train is quite cheaper to make a Zaragoza-Valencia via Tarragona rather than via Teruel even if shorter.

If only line would be electrified we could think in more traffic.


----------



## 437.001

alserrod said:


> It was a company to manage one line from Sagunto to Calatayud (from Calatayud to Soria, Burgos and Cidad Dosante, its natural way there was another company) and a branch from Caminreal to Zaragoza.


The Central de Aragón line didn´t run till Sagunto, but till Valencia, through a different line tan the current one, it ran parallel to the Tarragona-Valencia and the Valencia-Rafelbunyol lines (and located between the both of them). That stretch was closed in 1985.



alserrod said:


> It dissappeared when all companies (except FEVE) were joined into Renfe.


Not exactly: in 1941 Renfe was created by the nationalization of all the private Iberian-gauge railways plus one metric-gauge line. Many other narrow and standard gauge lines (but not all of them, some stood private) became part of EFE, which later would change its name to FEVE, nowadays a part of Renfe and Adif.



alserrod said:


> Furthermore, departing from Valencia and approaching to Teruel there is a mountain pass.


Not one, but two. The Puerto Escandón pass (between Teruel and Rubielos de Mora), and the Ragudo pass (between Rubielos de Mora and Segorbe -or Sagunto-). It is more of an "M-looking" line, rather than an "A-looking" line.


----------



## alserrod

Welll I said only Escandon to sum up. Looking from Teruel it is the only important pass and looking from Valencia it is the Ragudo area where it is harder for freight. Maybe due to Escandon has a station it is most known.
But... the most importan problem is obviously Ragudo.


----------



## 437.001

alserrod said:


> Welll I said only Escandon to sum up. Looking from Teruel it is the only important pass and looking from Valencia it is the Ragudo area where it is harder for freight. Maybe due to Escandon has a station it is most known.
> *But... the most importan problem is obviously Ragudo*.


Both, fella. The section Teruel-Caparrates-Puerto Escandon isn´t precisely soft... just as much as Jérica-Caudiel-Barracas, if not more.
And the section Puerto Escandon-Barracas isn´t flat at all, either.


----------



## alserrod

where section has more inclination is there. Thus, it is where the new project has the longest tunnels.

Anyways, the whole traject is a really nightmare. When a second railway was built for Iron mines, wasn't easy at all too.


----------



## 437.001

*Seville-Cádiz line*.
*Section Utrera-Lebrija*.
Double-tracking and upgrade works.

Pictures taken on December 2, 2013.



javi el geo said:


> (_translated into English by *437.001*_)
> 
> Images taken from an overpass (which replaces an old level crossing), some 4km south of Utrera. Km38, more or less.
> 
> Looking towards Las Cabezas, Lebrija and Cadiz:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Looking towards Utrera and Seville_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The ballast ends right under the bridge_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Looking towards Las Cabezas, Lebrija and Cadiz_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Sleepers. They´re able for a gauge change. Looks like they´re made in Puente Genil (Cordoba province)_:


----------



## 437.001

^^
:siren:

*News:*

*This Friday will be inaugurated the new Puerto Real station on the Seville-Cadiz line*, as a part of the upgrade of this line, which includes double-tracking and enabling it for speeds up to 220km/h. 
The Puerto Real station was the only remaining sector in single track between Jerez de la Frontera and Cadiz. 
This will improve the reliability of the Cercanías commuter service between Cadiz and Jerez de la Frontera, as well as of course all the other rail services on this line reaching Cadiz (Alvia, MD).
The new Puerto Real station is underground, it has two tracks with side platforms, and it is adapted for the disabled (lifts, escalators).
These works had started long ago, but had been halted because of the crisis.

Works on the upgrade of the line between Jerez de la Frontera and Utrera keep on going (see more in the post just above^^).


----------



## Sunfuns

Actually what will be the main benefits of this upgrading work? Significant reduction in travel time between Sevilla and Cadiz? Capacity for more trains? New suburban services perhaps?


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Actually what will be the main benefits of this upgrading work? Significant reduction in travel time between Sevilla and Cadiz?


Yes.



Sunfuns said:


> Capacity for more trains?


Yes.



Sunfuns said:


> New suburban services perhaps?


Yes.


----------



## Sunfuns

And to be finished next year if I remember correctly our previous discussion. 

I'll probably check it out some day. Flight from Basel to Sevilla are very cheap (<100 euros return) and I've never been to Cadiz.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> And to be finished next year if I remember correctly our previous discussion.


Indeed. It won´t be very long till the whole line is finally double-tracked.



Sunfuns said:


> I'll probably check it out some day. Flight from Basel to Sevilla are very cheap (<100 euros return) and I've never been to Cadiz.


Cadiz is the city that ressembles Havanna the most (although it´s very much itself, it has a very strong personality). Worth the trip indeed. :yes:

If I were you, I´d try the whole thing by train. The variety of landscapes from Basel to Cadiz through the different HSLs is fantastic. :yes:


----------



## AlexNL

And from next Sunday it will be even easier to get to Spain by HST. Go from Basel to Geneva by SBB, then hop on a Lyria train to Nimes or Montpellier, and pick a AVE or TGV to bring you further to Spain.


----------



## Sunfuns

That would be an epic journey, but a tough sell to my girlfriend 

Besides I'm quite pragmatic as far as travel is concerned. I like trains the best, but if it makes more sense to fly or drive I do that.


----------



## alserrod

Furthermore I would encourage you to take one way to go and return in another way. There are several lines and you will enjoy different landscapes


----------



## Positronn

How fast will trains go on the new Santiago - Vigo line? It looks like, by the earthworks in Google Earth, the minimum curve radius will be around 1000~1500m.


----------



## 437.001

Positronn said:


> How fast will trains go on the new Santiago - Vigo line? It looks like, by the earthworks in Google Earth, the minimum curve radius will be around 1000~1500m.


200/220 km/h as top speed.


----------



## alserrod

I have read this article in the English version of El Pais newspaper






> WWII ESPIONAGE
> ‘Casablanca’ in the Pyrenees
> A hub for spies and refugees during the Second World War, Canfranc station is the subject of two new documentaries
> 
> There were Allied spies. There were German informants, Gestapo officers, and snitches for Marshall Petain’s France and the local police. There were bars, full of cigarette smoke and furtive glances, where people met up in search of information or false passports to cross the border. As a key crossing point for goods in the middle of World War II, the town was a hub for smugglers, as well as home to one legendary charmer who used his savoir faire to pull the strings of an intricate espionage network.
> 
> 
> ...


http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/12/16/inenglish/1387201122_734284.html


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## 437.001

error post, sorry, wrong thread


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.

River Ulla viaduct.



Papos said:


>


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## JB Colbert

437.001 said:


> *Seville-Cádiz line*.
> *Section Utrera-Lebrija*.
> Double-tracking and upgrade works.


Does this line has the Anche Ibérico?


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## 437.001

JB Colbert said:


> Does this line has the Anche Ibérico?


Iberian gauge.
To be changed to standard gauge some time in the maybe-not-so-distant future.


----------



## Trenponfe

2 Renfe Class 333.3 pull a cement train from Galicia to the cement factory in Toral de los Vados (León) by the Sil valley.


----------



## x-type

as new TGV/AVE services to France have been introduced, does Elipsos Trenhotel still operate, or it is history now? i see that on www.elipsos.com they have infomration about new TGV/AVE lines only.


----------



## Suburbanist

Elipsos trains have been discontinued.


----------



## eu01

Suburbanist said:


> Elipsos trains have been discontinued.


Not sure if it was a wise decision. Actually the new faster track would have created an opportunity to introduce a "new generation" faster night train with the travel time between Paris and Barcelona... well, certainly not 6½ hours like TGV/RENFE Alta Velocidad, but e.g. nine hours. A good option to depart around 22:00 in the evening, to sleep just the right amount of time of and arrive in the morning around 7:00 AM. Until recently the travel time used to be approx. 12 hours, so right now for some people it would have been an ideal connection, if it took 9 hours.


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.
Vilagarcía de Arousa station.*

Views of the upgrade works at the station:


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## Sunfuns

Do you have a map which shows how the future route from Vigo to Santiago differs from the one before improvement works started? There is a partial description on Adif site, but no map...


----------



## 437.001

:siren:

*Accident on December 23, on the Ferrol-Oviedo line*.

A Renfe-Feve 2400 DMU, doing a regional train travelling from Oviedo to Ferrol derailed due to a fallen tree at 9.30pm, near Covas station, due to the bad weather conditions which caused a eucaliptus to fall on the track.

None of the passengers and staff were injured.



> From the Vía Libre magazine @ Facebook


----------



## BE0GRAD

alserrod said:


> It could be better. There are great areas with few population and bad service... it is expensive to improve the network there but some thing can be done at a terrible cheap price.


I was thinking more on overbuilt HSR network. At least I've heard it is overbuilt on some French documentaries about white elephant projects in Spain.


----------



## gincan

BE0GRAD said:


> I was thinking more on overbuilt HSR network. At least I've heard it is overbuilt on some French documentaries about white elephant projects in Spain.


There are many white elephant projects in Spain alright, but non of them are railways. What has up until now been built will form the backbone of the Spanish transport system. However any system is only as strong as its weakest link and until the basic network is finished, its true potential will not be realised. This will be the situation for atleast another 15-20 years until the basic network is finished.


----------



## alserrod

BE0GRAD said:


> I was thinking more on overbuilt HSR network. At least I've heard it is overbuilt on some French documentaries about white elephant projects in Spain.


In my opinion, one of the problem is... it is not easy to transfer from HSR to conventional trains. They could improve possible journeys but they do not do almost anything.


----------



## BE0GRAD

alserrod said:


> In my opinion, one of the problem is... it is not easy to transfer from HSR to conventional trains. They could improve possible journeys but they do not do almost anything.


You mean that HSR and conventional trains stop at the same stations? I think I saw such solutions in some Chinese cities.


----------



## OriK

^^ but i think that the intention is to deprecate the conventional network as is in the future, integrating it to the hsn (a change of gauge will be required sooner or later)


----------



## alserrod

BE0GRAD said:


> You mean that HSR and conventional trains stop at the same stations? I think I saw such solutions in some Chinese cities.


Not exactly.


Below image is Calatayud station. Conventional tracks and in the right of the image (sharing the same platform!!) the HSR.

There aren't integrated schedules. You can travel from/to Calatayud but no passengers will think to travel from the nearby of Calatayud to anywhere with a transfer because it can take too long and all problems if a delay happens are for you.

There is not enough "transfer culture" in Spain yet.


----------



## Sunfuns

Until very recently Renfe wasn't even showing routes with connections on it's website…


----------



## Suburbanist

I don't get this criticism for Spanish HSR projects. The old lines were kinda crap, the line between Zaragoza and Reus was ridiculously slow and single-tracked! 

They need to let some competitors operate trains as well, though. Something like NTV in Italy. That would improve service and provide more options. Problem is that Porta d Atocha is quite busy though (but the lines aren't).


----------



## gincan

Suburbanist said:


> Problem is that Porta d Atocha is quite busy though (but the lines aren't).


Barcelona Sants is probably even a bigger problem now, it has only 6 tracks. Until Barcelona Sagrera open in 4 or 5 years time, it will be difficult to add many slots because the only service area for HSR trains is located to the south of the station and can only be reached by crossing the northbound track, so it is a nightmare trying to free up tracks in the station itself. You basically have to do a Ryanair turnaround scheme whereby you offload the train and then load the train almost immediately so that new trains can enter the station.


----------



## Coccodrillo

What's the point of keeping the Lleida - La Pobla de Segur line with only one train a day? There are also two buses a day doing the same trip. With such a service, nobody but a few tourists and carless people can be attracted...

http://www.fgc.cat/eng/cercador.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lleida_-_La_Pobla_de_Segur_line

I once wanted to take that line, but I would have had to leave Barcelona at 6 am or so, returning there at around 17, so taking a whole day, so I have given up.


----------



## alserrod

Last summer I saw 30 km/h signals and one forumer said that nothing was planned to improve that branch


----------



## Suburbanist

What are chances of a major re-work there to extend the line to Andorra?


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> What are chances of a major re-work there to extend the line to Andorra?


We've just talked about it in a Spanish thread and really nothing. All major Pyrinean resorts or cities should be approached by HSR and bus... that's all.

Should Andorran government want to have a link the nearest network is the French one here:
https://maps.google.es/?ll=42.583612,1.796951&spn=0.036907,0.084543&t=h&z=14

and network there isn't a HSR at all and they should have to build a great tunnel.


----------



## 437.001

BE0GRAD said:


> I was thinking more on overbuilt HSR network. At least I've heard it is overbuilt on some French documentaries about white elephant projects in Spain.


I´d only consider the Mediterranean coast as 'overbuilt', but more in terms of housing, since in terms of railway, Spain is clearly underbuilt. 



gincan said:


> There are many white elephant projects in Spain alright, but non of them are railways. What has up until now been built will form the backbone of the Spanish transport system.


I´d rather scrap the Zaragoza-Huesca HSL from that 'backbone'.
Some things on the Madrid-Valencia/Alicante/Murcia could have been better done, as well... 
Just as much as the size of some HSR station buildings.



gincan said:


> However any system is only as strong as its weakest link and until the basic network is finished, its true potential will not be realised. This will be the situation for atleast another 15-20 years until the basic network is finished.


I think that we´ll need less than 20 years to see it start developing.
See Barcelona-Zaragoza-Seville/Malaga. These travel times between Barcelona/Zaragoza and Seville/Malaga were unthought of when the Madrid-Seville HSL opened.
The main thing will be the tunnel under Madrid, to link the North HSL to the Barcelona, Valencia and Seville HSLs.



alserrod said:


> In my opinion, one of the problem is... it is not easy to transfer from HSR to conventional trains. They could improve possible journeys but they do not do almost anything.


In many cases, it´s not down to the HSR, it´s more because of the low population density.



BE0GRAD said:


> You mean that HSR and conventional trains stop at the same stations? I think I saw such solutions in some Chinese cities.


Barcelona-Sants, Madrid-Atocha, Alicante, Albacete, Lleida, Girona, Valladolid-Campo Grande, Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Cordoba, Seville-Santa Justa, Malaga-Maria Zambrano, Calatayud, Zaragoza-Delicias stations allow transfers between HSR and classic rail.

Antequera-Santa Ana station allows it too, but that is clearly underdeveloped in the area (they´ve only just realised about it).

Camp de Tarragona could allow it if they rebuilt the old classic Reus-Roda de Bara line (closed in 1990).

Valencia-Joaquin Sorolla allows it (but you have to walk, take a bus/metro to the neighbouring Valencia-Nord station), but it´s a provisory station (only that we just don´t know for how long).

Corunna, Ourense and Santiago stations allow it, but in fact they´ve been designed with the gauge change in mind.

The other stations don´t allow it (or not yet).



OriK said:


> ^^ but i think that the intention is to deprecate the conventional network as is in the future, integrating it to the hsn (a change of gauge will be required sooner or later)


Don´t get that, sorry. Rewrite.



alserrod said:


> Not exactly.
> 
> Below image is Calatayud station. Conventional tracks and in the right of the image (sharing the same platform!!) the HSR.
> 
> There aren't integrated schedules. You can travel from/to Calatayud but no passengers will think to travel from the nearby of Calatayud to anywhere with a transfer because it can take too long and all problems if a delay happens are for you.
> 
> There is not enough "transfer culture" in Spain yet.


In the case of Calatayud, where would you like to change for (keeping in mind that the trains should rather NOT BE EMPTY)?
Calatayud lies in the heart of the least populated area in the country (the inside of the triangle Tarragona-Burgos-Albacete)



Sunfuns said:


> Until very recently Renfe wasn't even showing routes with connections on it's website…


True. They´re starting to, though, just don´t expect them to be Swiss in two minutes, that´d be an overkill. This week they already show a new AVE+bus transfer at Lleida for both Andorra and Vielha. Not bad, that one.



Suburbanist said:


> I don't get this criticism for Spanish HSR projects. The old lines were kinda crap, the line between Zaragoza and Reus was ridiculously slow and single-tracked!


The Spanish classic lines are not as rubbish as some say (well, at least some of them). 
It´s only that Spain´s the most mountainous country in Europe right after Switzerland. 



Suburbanist said:


> They need to let some competitors operate trains as well, though. Something like NTV in Italy. That would improve service and provide more options. Problem is that Porta d Atocha is quite busy though (but the lines aren't).


Here we have you being yourself again. oke:



gincan said:


> Barcelona Sants is probably even a bigger problem now, it has only 6 tracks. Until Barcelona Sagrera open in 4 or 5 years time, it will be difficult to add many slots because the only service area for HSR trains is located to the south of the station and can only be reached by crossing the northbound track, so it is a nightmare trying to free up tracks in the station itself. You basically have to do a Ryanair turnaround scheme whereby you offload the train and then load the train almost immediately so that new trains can enter the station.


I don´t think Sagrera station will open in 4-5 years time AT ALL.
The most likely thing to happen is to take platforms 7 and 8 and regauge them to standard. Estació de França could play the support role as it does now (it´s underused). El Prat, Girona, Figueres-Vilafant and Camp de Tarragona can play the support role in the HSR network. 



Coccodrillo said:


> What's the point of keeping the Lleida - La Pobla de Segur line with only one train a day? There are also two buses a day doing the same trip. With such a service, nobody but a few tourists and carless people can be attracted...
> 
> http://www.fgc.cat/eng/cercador.asp
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lleida_-_La_Pobla_de_Segur_line


Austerity and politicians. 
I suspect they want to close it, but they know that it would mean losing many votes in that constituency.



Coccodrillo said:


> I once wanted to take that line, but I would have had to leave Barcelona at 6 am or so, returning there at around 17, so taking a whole day, so I have given up.


Lleida station has a hotel, you know... 
*DO NOT MISS THAT LINE*. It´s worth it. :yes:


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> I´d only consider the Mediterranean coast as 'overbuilt', but more in terms of housing, since in terms of railway, Spain is clearly underbuilt.


Aren't there also some airports where only pigeons are landing? 



437.001 said:


> I´d rather scrap the Zaragoza-Huesca HSL from that 'backbone'.


Do you think actually running more trains on that line, even just Zaragoza-Huesca shuttles would be pointless? 




437.001 said:


> In the case of Calatayud, where would you like to change for (keeping in mind that the trains should rather NOT BE EMPTY)?
> Calatayud lies in the heart of the least populated area in the country (the inside of the triangle Tarragona-Burgos-Albacete)


Just co-ordinating the schedules of already existing classical trains in such a way that whoever comes with AVE or wants to take it don't have to wait more than 10-15 min wouldn't make them any more empty than they already are. 




437.001 said:


> True. They´re starting to, though, just don´t expect them to be Swiss in two minutes, that´d be an overkill. This week they already show a new AVE+bus transfer at Lleida for both Andorra and Vielha. Not bad, that one.


There has been improvement certainly. In fact there has been a vast amount of improvement overall in the Spanish rail system in the last 10-15 years which I guess is a reason why this thread is so active. There is still work to do though, particularly on logistics side.



437.001 said:


> *I don´t think Sagrera station will open in 4-5 years time AT ALL.*
> The most likely thing to happen is to take platforms 7 and 8 and regauge them to standard. Estació de França could play the support role as it does now (it´s underused). El Prat, Girona, Figueres-Vilafant and Camp de Tarragona can play the support role in the HSR network.


Is that now one of those decades long projects with who knows when finishing date?


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Aren't there also some airports where only pigeons are landing?


Ouh yess, but although there are some links between the two things, overall the airport overdose we´ve had is entirely another story, and has more to do with politicians and politics. Trains were always there, airports weren´t. 

Still now there are places where a new railway line is really needed, while I can´t see anywhere in the country that would need a new airport (nor I did before the bubble). 

The only HSL that could be labelled entirely as a white elephant is the Zaragoza-Huesca HSL. Some doubling of classic lines which already allow for good speed are also in question, in SSC-Spain (outside it´s more complex and journalists and politicians only make things look worse than they actually are). 

Journalists and politicians take things way too far over the top, especially the foreign ones, who don´t understand that the national sport in Spain is self-loathing and next-door-neighbour bashing (no wonder that there is a region called 'The Gothic Fields' in Spain :lol.

When you look at the railway network of Poland, for instance, there aren´t any of the big gaps the Spanish railway map has, and both countries have similar population (in fact, Spain is a bit more populated than Poland), although I admit that Poland´s geography is not as complicated as Spain´s. 



Sunfuns said:


> Do you think actually running more trains on that line, even just Zaragoza-Huesca shuttles would be pointless?


Zaragoza-Huesca has a problem, which is that it is not a real HSL, although it´s introduced as such. It only allows for 200km/h and it is single-track.
It even isn´t very competitive with the bus, since Zaragoza-Delicias station is not in the city centre! Besides, Huesca population is under 100,000...

We´ve learnt a few things out of it, though (first line to get the third rail, first line in single-track...). But overall, there was no need to build it, a gauge-change machine at Zaragoza-Miraflores would have largely been worth it. In fact, with the money it did cost, they could have upgraded the whole classic line till Canfranc instead.



Sunfuns said:


> Just co-ordinating the schedules of already existing classical trains in such a way that whoever comes with AVE or wants to take it don't have to wait more than 10-15 min wouldn't make them any more empty than they already are.


It´s not so easy to coordinate trains when you´re officially short on classic rolling stock and the areas you want to serve are not densely populated. But you´re not wrong, either, and here´s an area where other operators, if they´re witty, could find their place.



Sunfuns said:


> There has been improvement certainly. In fact there has been a vast amount of improvement overall in the Spanish rail system in the last 10-15 years which I guess is a reason why this thread is so active.


Another reason why this thread is so active is that there are forumers who can write English, or forumers at all. Just look at the state of the French forum, there are also loads of things going on in France (or in Germany or the UK), but they´re just not featured here because there´s no one to do it. Mind you, I´ve even posted some news about France, myself, since no French forumer did! :lol:



Sunfuns said:


> There is still work to do though, particularly on logistics side.


Indeed.



Sunfuns said:


> Is that now one of those decades long projects with who knows when finishing date?


:hmm: Ermm... I guess parts of it will. 
The works keep on going on though, but very slowly and with not lots of workers.
This station won´t be ready in 4-5 years, unless we see a big change of priorities (they can be as fast as hell when they want to, the easiest example is the reconstruction of Vigo-Urzaiz station, which is advancing crazily fast).
Sagrera station isn´t the top priority, right now.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Is the trackbed of Zaragoza-Huesca entirely new? I thought it wasn't, so it can't be considered a new HSL, but a regauged line with some improvements.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> When you look at the railway network of Poland, for instance, there aren´t any of the big gaps the Spanish railway map has, and both countries have similar population (in fact, Spain is a bit more populated than Poland), although I admit that Poland´s geography is not as complicated as Spain´s.


South Poland is hilly to mountainous in extreme south, but the rest of the country is pretty much flat as a pancake. It's a lot easier geography than in Spain albeit I think population distribution is more uniform with no "empty quarters" like you have. 




437.001 said:


> Another reason why this thread is so active is that there are forumers who can write English, or forumers at all. Just look at the state of the French forum, there are also loads of things going on in France (or in Germany or the UK), but they´re just not featured here because there´s no one to do it. Mind you, I´ve even posted some news about France, myself, since no French forumer did! :lol:


Yes, but I don't think that's all or even most of the reason. Just check the activity of forum parts dealing with railways in various languages. Compared to Spanish German section is virtually dead and the French one is only marginally better. There are plenty of German rail enthusiasts (railway articles in wikipedia, for example, are often better in German than in English), but they must be congregating somewhere other than SSC.


----------



## alserrod

437.001 said:


> I think that we´ll need less than 20 years to see it start developing.
> See Barcelona-Zaragoza-Seville/Malaga. These travel times between Barcelona/Zaragoza and Seville/Malaga were unthought of when the Madrid-Seville HSL opened.
> The main thing will be the tunnel under Madrid, to link the North HSL to the Barcelona, Valencia and Seville HSLs.


I agree. I remember being in a viewpoint near your city with people living in an area where train service has been improved but not HSL yet. They didn't know the area and I pointed the name of all the cities in those shires. That one is.. the other one is... and finally I said, and over there in the middle of those ones you have a station that helps you to arrive to Madrid in two hours or so and Seville in less than 5 hours and they opened their eyes as an owl... they were used to drive on roads, not always motorways (slower speed) and bad train service




> In many cases, it´s not down to the HSR, it´s more because of the low population density.


An both... in many cases, those few trains in low population density do not shuttle with HSR




> Barcelona-Sants, Madrid-Atocha, Alicante, Albacete, Lleida, Girona, Valladolid-Campo Grande, Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Cordoba, Seville-Santa Justa, Malaga-Maria Zambrano, Calatayud, Zaragoza-Delicias stations allow transfers between HSR and classic rail.
> 
> Antequera-Santa Ana station allows it too, but that is clearly underdeveloped in the area (they´ve only just realised about it).
> 
> Camp de Tarragona could allow it if they rebuilt the old classic Reus-Roda de Bara line (closed in 1990).
> 
> Valencia-Joaquin Sorolla allows it (but you have to walk, take a bus/metro to the neighbouring Valencia-Nord station), but it´s a provisory station (only that we just don´t know for how long).
> 
> Corunna, Ourense and Santiago stations allow it, but in fact they´ve been designed with the gauge change in mind.
> 
> The other stations don´t allow it (or not yet).



Well... you missed Madrid-Chamartin... :nuts:


Could be consider Figueres-Vilafant too indeed?

Anyway, the question is why there is no further option in some stations. I remember that in Ireland there was a bus to shuttle two stations with separated networks and services. They could do it if they want.

Furthermore, Should be have to consider all those stations as transfer ones?

I am not sure...

Ciudad Real receives a lot of trains coming from Madrid (and Barcelona) and from Cordova (and Algeciras, Seville, Malaga and more...)
There are five trains to Manzanares/Alcazar. No one of them are assured to be ok on transfer.

A little more in the south, in Puertollano there is an official transfer since several years ago. It was a former Madrid-Badajoz via Puertollano.

Train had this journey more or less (I point it with roads, obviously in train it is not exactly the same one)
https://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=m...aA&t=h&mra=dvme&mrsp=1&sz=8&via=1,2,3,4,5&z=8

About nine hours of journey.

I took that train until the middle of La Mancha but there were many people going to those villages in the south of La Mancha, east of Extremadura (and north of Andalusia, there is one station there if I'm not wrong).

Several days later I took schedules and I saw that taking a regional HS train to Puertollano and transfer to THAT regional train just 15 minutes later would cost only 3 euro more and would save 3 hours journey!!!!!

Finally, several years ago they did it. To my best knowledge, direction Extremadura, train would wait if incidence (HS trains there are quite accurate). Direction Madrid you are entitled to get the first available train if there is a delay as well as a ticket refund.






> Lleida station has a hotel, you know...
> *DO NOT MISS THAT LINE*. It´s worth it. :yes:



Zaragoza Delicias has another one 










:cheers:


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> :banana:


:banana::apple::cucumber::carrot:epper:

They should have never ever closed the Torrevieja line, but this is some of the best news in a long time.

This reopening alone means thousands of passengers.

But... let´s be prudent, that´s only a study.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> The classic railway services to Ourense via Guillarei and Ribadavia, and to Porto, not to talk about a potential Cercanías (commuter) service.
> 
> *Regional rail exists too, you know...*


Of course and it's very important, but wouldn't it be possible to run Cercanias on the new line? It's not going to be that busy with long distance trains and the new line still touches the key towns between Vigo and Santiago (right?). 

As for Porto I looked on google maps when you posted that picture with the new alignment and it looked to me that the tunnel ends up somewhere a bit before the current line branches off to the South near Redondela. Was I wrong about that and the new tunnel is not actually usable for services to Porto? That would be a pity...


----------



## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> The classic railway services to Ourense via Guillarei and Ribadavia, and to Porto, not to talk about a potential Cercanías (commuter) service.
> 
> Regional rail exists too, you know...


Having separate stations for local and long distance services reduces attractiveness of both. I can understand that with the new station on a standard gauge line broad gauge trains must go elsewhere, but it is not an ideal solutions.

Vigo's new stations has 6 tracks, which are certainly well enough for the traffic that both Guixar and Urzaiz stations. Maybe one could think of sending all trains to the new station using the old line for tram-trains (and freight traisn to the harbour), or linking Urzaiz and Guixar with a people mover or similar. Once the 1668 mm gauge will be a thing for a museum, obviously.

By the way, wasn't there a project to build a tunnel also on the other side of the new stations, making a sort of loop to avoid reversal of trains like Porto-Vigo-Santiago?

********

What was the path of the line of Torrevieja? From Alicante to Caratgena via the coast?

edit: posted together with Sunfuns


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Of course and it's very important, but wouldn't it be possible to run Cercanias on the new line?


Of course NOT. :uh:

A commuter train is supposed to be based in proximity services, with frequent stations.



Sunfuns said:


> It's not going to be that busy with long distance trains...


That´s secondary.



Sunfuns said:


> ...and the new line still touches the key towns between Vigo and Santiago (right?).


Wrong. 



Sunfuns said:


> As for Porto I looked on google maps when you posted that picture with the new alignment and it looked to me that the tunnel ends up somewhere a bit before the current line branches off to the South near Redondela.


They´re supposed to build an even longer tunnel instead, from the other end of Vigo-Urzaiz station straight into Porriño, then Valença do Minho.



Sunfuns said:


> Was I wrong about that and the new tunnel is not actually usable for services to Porto? That would be a pity...


I actually am totally against that.

Besides, sooner or later the line to Santiago will be switched to stantard gauge, so there should be a means of escape for the Iberian freight and passenger rail. That´s why.


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> Having separate stations for local and long distance services reduces attractiveness of both. I can understand that with the new station on a standard gauge line broad gauge trains must go elsewhere, but it is not an ideal solutions.


Not only is it not ideal, but it is a ****-up.



Coccodrillo said:


> Vigo's new stations has 6 tracks, which are certainly well enough for the traffic that both Guixar and Urzaiz stations. Maybe one could think of sending all trains to the new station using the old line for tram-trains (and freight traisn to the harbour), or linking Urzaiz and Guixar with a people mover or similar. Once the 1668 mm gauge will be a thing for a museum, obviously.


And what about creating a commuter rail service, then? :sly:



Coccodrillo said:


> By the way, wasn't there a project to build a tunnel also on the other side of the new stations, making a sort of loop to avoid reversal of trains like Porto-Vigo-Santiago?


I just answered to that. ^^ 



Coccodrillo said:


> What was the path of the line of Torrevieja? From Alicante to Cartagena via the coast?


From Albatera-Catral station to Torrevieja.
Old intermediate stations were Almoradí-Dolores, Rojales-Benijófar, and Las Moreras.
Part of the old platform still exists, and another part has been turned into a motorway, which could easily be enlarged to make room for a double track in the middle.

That is the easiest option, and would assure ridership since it would link Alicante to Torrevieja via Elche, thus the three most populated cities in the province.
All this, while also allowing a direct link to the HSL (Torrevieja IS Madrid´s main beach ), so a direct seasonal Alvia Madrid-Torrevieja would be compulsory.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> I actually am totally against that.
> 
> Besides, sooner or later the line to Santiago will be switched to stantard gauge, so there should be a means of escape for the Iberian freight and passenger rail. That´s why.


Ok, fair point about not using the new line for Cercanias but I don't really get why you are against using the new station for medium distance service to Porto. The new tunnel you are talking about probably won't be built in any immediate time scale and the current one would make the service slightly faster and provide easier connections...


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ for the time being, different gauge...



437.001 said:


> And what about creating a commuter rail service, then? :sly:


Good idea, so to at least serve traffic to Vigo and to save and improve the existing infrastructure. Still, a way to link both stations should be found...



437.001 said:


> Besides, sooner or later the line to Santiago will be switched to stantard gauge, so there should be a means of escape for the Iberian freight and passenger rail. That´s why.


All of the Iberian peninsula will - or at least I hope...


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Ok, fair point about not using the new line for Cercanias but I don't really get why you are against using the new station for medium distance service to Porto. The new tunnel you are talking about probably won't be built in any immediate time scale and the current one would make the service slightly faster and provide easier connections...


I get what you say, buit I just don´t think it will be done shortly, in particular since I see that it will take longer to change the gauge on the classic line, and Portugal will probably take a little longer to do it than us.


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> Good idea, so to at least serve traffic to Vigo and to save and improve the existing infrastructure. Still, a way to link both stations should be found...


In fact, there USED to be a link between both stations... a link that Basel also has between the Elsasser Bahnhof and the Badischer Bahnhof.

_Die Strassenbahn_...


----------



## Sunfuns

The stations are quite close physically in Vigo, aren't they? In Basel it's 12 min by tram or ca 40 min walking (I've done that). 

The new line will initially be in broad gauge, isn't that so? At least until the entire Galicia HSL is finished...


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> The stations are quite close physically in Vigo, aren't they? In Basel it's 12 min by tram or ca 40 min walking (I've done that).


They´re much closer than in Basel, but Vigo is even steeper than Basel. 
In Vigo it´s 12 min down the hill (Urzáiz to Guixar), but the other way around can take you much, much longer...



Sunfuns said:


> The new line will initially be in broad gauge, isn't that so? At least until the entire Galicia HSL is finished...


It won´t be that long till it opens. It´s advancing crazily fast, as you know via the stuff I post.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> They´re much closer than in Basel, but Vigo is even steeper than Basel.
> In Vigo it´s 12 min down the hill (Urzáiz to Guixar), but the other way around can take you much, much longer...


Basel isn't steep at all, dozens of cities in Europe are much steeper than us. 12 min downhill is a significant distance...



437.001 said:


> It won´t be that long till it opens. It´s advancing crazily fast, as you know via the stuff I post.


Indeed, but it would be much more useful to either have a through service from Porto to A Coruna or have an easy connection in Vigo. A long walk uphill won't do it...


----------



## 437.001

But anyway, given that there will be a link at Arcade station (that could be electrified, although it´s not planned -or not yet), I don´t see it as any big problema for any potential Corunna-Santiago-Pontevedra-Vigo Guixar-Porto-Coimbra-Lisbon service, if such a thing were to exist.


----------



## Coccodrillo

From Redondela a third, central, track leaves from the centre. Apparently it is the ancient path of the line to Madrid and Protugal. Why was it replaced?

https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Arcad...6.696167&t=m&hnear=Arcade,+O+Vao,+Spagna&z=17


----------



## gincan

Reopening of the railway to Torrevieja will never happen, the people living along the corridor will never accept having their comunities cut in half, there wil be protests and more protests until the plans are abandoned. Some kind of urban light rail is probably more realistic.


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> From Redondela a third, central, track leaves from the centre. Apparently it is the ancient path of the line to Madrid and Protugal. Why was it replaced?


Apparently, and if I´m not misinformed, there was something with the old viaduct or a trench wich were not very stable.



gincan said:


> Reopening of the railway to Torrevieja will never happen, the people living along the corridor will never accept having their comunities cut in half, there wil be protests and more protests until the plans are abandoned. Some kind of urban light rail is probably more realistic.


The town council of Torrevieja wants to, after the neighbours and local associations demanded it once and again... it was the town council who historically didn´t want to...

As for communities cut in half, there´s none that could be affected (and if you mean what and where I believe you mean, a simple deviation would largely suffice). 

As for the future new station at Torrevieja... I guess that would have to be underground and possibly in a different location than the historical one (pity, because the old one had a fabulous location), but since I´m not all that well-informed, I´ll have to do a bit of research...


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## 437.001

*A vintage photo:*

*Barcelona-Vilanova depot*, in the 1960s/70s.

Old Barcelona-Vilanova was the depot for Barcelona-Vilanova station, commonly known nowadays as Barcelona-Estació del Nord and used now as a long-distance bus station.
It was closed more or less when Barcelona-Sants station opened as a big station.
It had an underground section now known as Arc de Triomf, obviously still in service and very busy.

On the image we can see four class 436/437/438 EMUs (I wonder if 437.001 must be one of the four?), plus a class 270 loco, from 1928.



SEIM said:


> [/CENTER]
> 
> Source: www.tranvia.org


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Estació de França station.*

_Trains_:



voltrega62 said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Atocha station*.

10 minutes during the morning rush hour compressed into 2min50sec. 
Just below the cam there are the commuter trains (Cercanías). 
The AVE are seen on the upper right side of the image (half-hidden by the modern trainshed on the right):


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## 437.001

*Zaragoza-Bilbao line.
Logroño station.*



Fruela said:


>


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## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line.*

Electrification works between Medina del Campo and Salamanca, poles already standing.

On the picture, a class 334 loco pulling the historical train "El tren de los 80" ("the train of the 80s"), with prototype loco 269.604 and 3 coaches.

Photo by (I suppose) *melco* at www.tranvia.org 



zoltan said:


>


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## Coccodrillo

Why do they pull also the electric (DC only) loco, on a not yet electrified line? Should the line be 25 kV AC, shouldn't?


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> Why do they pull also the electric (DC only) loco, on a not yet electrified line? Should the line be 25 kV AC, shouldn't?


It´s a historical train, it should be going to Salamanca for some purpose. 
Besides the diesel class 334, the rest of the train is no longer used by Renfe for commercial service.

And yes, the line will be electrified at 25 kV AC.


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## Trenponfe

Trains in Ponferrada 3-11-2013


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

River Ulla viaduct.



Papos said:


>


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

River Ulla viaduct.



Papos said:


>


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## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line.*

Electrification works between Medina del Campo and Salamanca, poles already standing.

*Campillo station* and surroudings.

From the www.vialibre-ffe.com Facebook page: 



zoltan said:


>


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## Coccodrillo

Can the S-253 be converted to dual voltage so as to use this line? I know that some S-252 can run under DC and some under AC, but are there machines still able to use both? I suppose some were, when the Madrid-Seville HSL was partially electrified in DC at the termini.

As for the other modern Spanish electric loco, the Bitrac, I'm sure it is only DC and diesel.


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> Can the S-253 be converted to dual voltage so as to use this line? I know that some S-252 can run under DC and some under AC, but are there machines still able to use both? I suppose some were, when the Madrid-Seville HSL was partially electrified in DC at the termini.
> 
> As for the other modern Spanish electric loco, the Bitrac, I'm sure it is only DC and diesel.


I think that class 253 are only for 3 kV, but they have the 25 kV preinstalled so it could be easier to change, given the case.
Same goes for the gauge. All trains younger than class 447 EMUs have the preinstallation for gauge change, if I remember correctly.


----------



## Suburbanist

I have a question: when was the last revenue regular service pulled by steam locos in Spain finally withdrawn?


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## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> I have a question: when was the last revenue regular service pulled by steam locos in Spain finally withdrawn?


In 1975 for the Iberian gauge, i think it was some train finishing at Vicálvaro station in Madrid. 
In the 1980s for the metric gauge, on the Ponferrada-Villablino line.
I´m talking about the last regular freight trains.

I don´t know about passengers.


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.
Vigo-Urzáiz station (under reconstruction).*

Update from January 10, 2014:



zoltan said:


>


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## alserrod

437.001 said:


> In 1975 for the Iberian gauge, i think it was some train finishing at Vicálvaro station in Madrid.
> In the 1980s for the metric gauge, on the Ponferrada-Villablino line.
> I´m talking about the last regular freight trains.
> 
> I don´t know about passengers.


To my best knowledge, it was current king (still prince in 1975) who turned off the last loco then.


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## 437.001

*Tarragona station*.

A class 449 EMU (an unusual sight in Tarragona) on a Regional Express Reus-Barcelona Estació de França:



Alvarop_86 said:


>


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## Sunfuns

When were the building works for Vigo station started?


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> When were the building works for Vigo station started?


Not so long ago... if you check the thread, you´ll find lots of not-so-old photos that will allow you to tell. 
I can´t tell you the exact date, but it started like two years ago.


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## 437.001

*Valladolid freight ring line (under construction).*

This line is supposed to be an outer ring through the east of Valladolid, so as freight trains don´t need to cross Valladolid-Campo Grande station. 
It will be in Iberian gauge, and it seems it will be connected to the part of the old Valladolid-Ariza line that´s still open and leads to the Renault car factory.
It will also be connected to the new Valladolid central workshop.

For now, only the northern part (connection towards France and Northern Spain) of the line is being built, since there´s no money for the southern half (connection towards Portugal, Southern Spain and Madrid), since its funding was supposed to come from the money made after selling the land of the current Valladolid-Campo Grande central workshop to build a new housing development. But that money doesn´t come.



jl5 said:


>


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## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line.*

*Aldehuela de la Bóveda station.*

This station is located between Salamanca and Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso (Portugal).
It doesn´t get any passenger anymore.
Electrification in this sector has not started yet.



CARBALOSIELLA said:


>


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Granollers-Girona-Portbou/Cerbère classic line.*
Between *Girona* and *Celrà* stations.

Diesel loco 333.407 pulling a steam engine.



aarongilp said:


> El tren de la Fresa, versió Guadix (01/2014) por aarongilp, en Flickr


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## 437.001

*Monforte de Lemos-Lugo-Betanzos-Corunna classic line*.
*Section Monforte de Lemos-Lugo*.

Pictures of the upgrade at Puebla de San Julian.
The new upgraded route is supposed to save a few minutes and eight level crossings.
Works are halted here. 



santiv123 said:


>


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## 437.001

*Bilbao-San Sebastian narrow gauge line.*

An old video from September 2012 of the *future Ermua station*.
Works are halted.


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Vic-Ripoll-Puigcerda/Latour-de-Carol line.
Manlleu station.*

The herbicide train, pulled by two class 310 diesel locos (310.022 and 310.032):



voltrega62 said:


>


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## Trenponfe

Alvia Vigo - Barcelona arriving Ponferrada station. November 2013.


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Vic-Ripoll-Puigcerda/Latour-de-Carol line.*

_Class 447 EMUs between Torelló and Borgonyà stations_:



voltrega62 said:


>


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Vic-Ripoll-Puigcerda/Latour-de-Carol line.*

_Class 447 EMUs between Manlleu and Torelló stations_:



voltrega62 said:


>


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Vic-Ripoll-Puigcerda/Latour-de-Carol line.*

_Class 447 EMU and loco 253.065, at Vic-Mercaderies_:



voltrega62 said:


>


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Vic-Ripoll-Puigcerda/Latour-de-Carol line.*

_Class 253 loco with a freight train, between Vic and Balenyà-Tona-Seva stations_:



voltrega62 said:


>


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## 437.001

*Murcia-Lorca-Águilas line.
Lorca-Sutullena station.*

This station is being reconstructed after being severely damaged by the 2011 earthquake that hit Lorca: 



Spider_pig said:


> Pictures from January 5, 2014:
> 
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> Pictures from January 21, 2014:
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> 
> The train logo on the left is upside down. They had one job... :crazy::lol:


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## 437.001

*Torralba-Soria line.*
*Soria station.*

_Some trains_:



riveratorres said:


> Loco 333.383 of Acciona and a class 594 DMU:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DMU 594.009:


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Guadalajara-Torralba-Calatayud-Zaragoza classic line.*
*Sigüenza station.*

_Some trains_:



riveratorres said:


> DMU 594.105:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DMU 599.049:


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## 437.001

*Torralba-Soria line.*
*Tardelcuende station.*

_Some trains_:



riveratorres said:


> DMU 594.009:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DMU 599.005:


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## 437.001

Discussion coming from an off-topic generated at the SPAIN | High Speed Railway thread:



Richard_P said:


> Although I think that this problem is a result of a bit too optimistic approach in which everything is made to retain both gauges which is clearly unfeasible. Choosing UIC gauge to HS rail was a political issue but now it is clear that Spain for growth needs UIC but freight connections. If this problem would be spotted soon enough HS lanes with insufficient traffic could be built as mixed use as in Italy Alta Velocita / Alta Capacita. Adding to that some other projects it was possible to achieve not only HS UIC gauge but also vast parts of Spain would be reachable by UIC freight trains.





Reivajar said:


> As well, the Spanish government knows it is necessary to open many different new lines before the elections in mid-2015, and the lack of money for all of them forces him to look for "innovative" solutions of saving money and keeping openings going on. Furthermore, the European funds for some of those lines have some sort of expiration date, so, at the end of the day, opening a new line with UIC gauge is the main priority.
> 
> In the short term those single tracks sections won't be a problems as traffic would be sort of low as the whole corridors won't be finished. For the UIC gauge network for freght trains, in some cases mixed used lines are planned, either new ones (Basque Y) or updating of existing ones through third rail (Mediterranean Corridor from Vandellós (Tarragona) to Valencia). That's true, in the future more and more mixed used lines will be opened, but as well because of the updating of the conventional network. The UIC migration is planned for the whole Iberian network in the medium-long term.


Two good posts. ^^ kay:

The Ministry seems to finally have realised that they have to come to terms with the duality of gauges, and that they have to really change the gauge of the Iberian-gauge network, and maybe parts of the metric-gauge network too (albeit later, since all of this is not going to be free of charge, as you can imagine...).

They even seem to have a deadline for the changing of gauge in some freight axis, which of course will also involve passenger traffic (2016 for Barcelona-Tarragona-Cartagena, 2018 for Hendaye/Irun-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso, and 2024 for Tarragona-Zaragoza-Madrid-Manzanares-Puertollano-Merida-Badajoz/Elvas. All these dates can of course not be respected, it will all depend on the budget).

Works seem to have started between Valencia and Castellon, and they are underway between Vandellos and Vila-seca, and we´re all awaiting the start of Works between Castellbisbal (current southern end of the freight standard gauge) and Vila-seca (just next to Tarragona), since this will allow the Martorell Seat Factory and the BASF and Bayer Tarragona chemical factories (as well as the connection with the Tarragona port, another of the main ports in Spain) to start exporting through rail.


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## Richard_P

437.001 said:


> The Ministry seems to finally have realised that they have to come to terms with the duality of gauges, and that they have to really change the gauge of the Iberian-gauge network, and maybe parts of the metric-gauge network too (albeit later, since all of this is not going to be free of charge, as you can imagine...).


 It's good that finally this problem was spotted but sadly that so late. It is also surprising that at some point I was feeling that some opposition to UIC gauge was in force as new sections of HS lines started to be opening with Iberian gauge with convertible sleepers. Of course such move saved from some gauge changing installations but eventually re-gauging of those tracks at later stage will also cost some money. But the most striking is fact that there weren't any nationwide plans for gauge conversion so at the same time two underused doubling lines with different gauges were build / modernised which hardly could be cost effective. While with proper plan gauge conversion could be done quicker and on cheaper basis and everyone who played Spanish train set in Open TTD knows that this is manageable. So we will wait and see if and when freight corridors will be established. Has someone any estimates on when first UIC freight train will reach Ford plant in Valencia?


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## 437.001

Richard_P said:


> It's good that finally this problem was spotted but sadly that so late.


Indeed.



Richard_P said:


> It is also surprising that at some point I was feeling that some opposition to UIC gauge was in force as new sections of HS lines started to be opening with Iberian gauge with convertible sleepers.


Nah, it was never that case, just practical reasons for the exploitation of the network.
Otherwise, those sleepers wouldn´t have been convertible but mono-gauge in Iberian.



Richard_P said:


> Of course such move saved from some gauge changing installations but eventually re-gauging of those tracks at later stage will also cost some money.


Yes, but that was the best option. Or the least bad, put it that way.



Richard_P said:


> But the most striking is fact that there weren't any nationwide plans for gauge conversion so at the same time two underused doubling lines with different gauges were build / modernised which hardly could be cost effective.


True.



Richard_P said:


> While with proper plan gauge conversion could be done quicker and on cheaper basis and everyone who played Spanish train set in Open TTD knows that this is manageable.


We´re told that it´s not that easy, since very often there´s the coincidence of freight with long distance and commuter rail traffic. 
I wonder how true is that, and if it was done by long stretches all in one go it would mean significant loss of passengers or the passengers would easily come back (the commuters in particular). 



Richard_P said:


> So we will wait and see if and when freight corridors will be established. Has someone any estimates on when first UIC freight train will reach Ford plant in Valencia?


2015, they say. Works are underway between Vandellos and Vila-seca (between Tarragona and Valencia). Preliminary works have just started between Puçol and Moncofa (between Valencia and Castellon). Same goes for the section between Valencia-Fuente de San Luis and Valencia-Sant Isidre.

As for the most crucial section (Castellbisbal-Tarragona-Vila-seca), they haven´t touched a pebble yet. 

The problem in that section is that it is commuter rail territory, so big disruptions will be on the menu... and there is an additional trouble: in the most crucial of this crucial sector (between Castellbisbal and Martorell), there´s a tunnel which is in very bad state. 

This tunnel alone can delay the works by itself, since it really is in very bad state, and the solution for that tunnel isn´t clear yet since the área is geologically complicated, and it is also planned to reopen an old abandoned parallel single-track tunnel to relieve the congestion (which couldn´t be done in no time since that compulsory implies the rebuilding of an old demolished viaduct over river Llobregat and the reworking of all the points at Martorell station, which is one of the main commuter rail termini), but we have no data about what they have in mind.


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## 437.001

*Ciudad Real-Puertollano-Almorchón-Mérida-Badajoz/Elvas line.* and *Córdoba-Almorchón line.*
*Almorchón station.*

This station used to be a more important junction than it is now, since the Córdoba-Almorchón line saw its passenger service cut in the 1970s.

The village of Almorchón originated mostly as a railwaymen town.

Picture taken on December 2013.



Manamer said:


>


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## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Zamora-Ourense-Santiago de Compostela-Corunna line.*
*Monte La Reina station.*

It´s located right under the new HSL under construction.



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.778188482200742.1073742060.592265530793039&type=1


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

River Ulla viaduct.

*SC.sidon* wasn´t very lucky this time, since he got a classic Northern Spain rainy, foggy day while visiting the viaduct. 
He was courageous enough to take some pics, he must have ended up soaked, poor him. hno:

:applause:



SC.sidon said:


>


----------



## Richard_P

437.001 said:


> Nah, it was never that case, just practical reasons for the exploitation of the network.
> Otherwise, those sleepers wouldn´t have been convertible but mono-gauge in Iberian.


 To be clear we must acknowledge that Spain uses three types of sleepers.
1. First are mono gauge both Iberian or UIC.
2. Gauge convertible allowing to use Iberian or UIC but not both.
3. Triple rail for both gauges.
Watching many Spain cab views (well mostly back views) I’ve spotted that ATM during modernisations on Iberian network are inserted only gauge convertible sleepers which watching its design should cost the same as mono gauge. Mono gauge sleepers with Iberian gauge are sometimes used but frankly i think that they are reused old sleepers taken from other lines. Thanks to this migration for UIC gauge should be easy but it doesn't allow for a stopgap with three rails. The biggest example is Mediterranean corridor which on Valencia - Tarragona (according to PDF which circulated the forum half year or so) from Valencia to Castellon should be dual gauge and further UIC gauge. Achieving this may be a problem because gauge convertible sleepers were laid not triple rail and realising this project will also discontinue Iberian gauge on important corridor.




> We´re told that it´s not that easy, since very often there´s the coincidence of freight with long distance and commuter rail traffic.
> I wonder how true is that, and if it was done by long stretches all in one go it would mean significant loss of passengers or the passengers would easily come back (the commuters in particular).


 I don't think that this is a crucial problem. Commuter traffic mostly covers short stretches of lines thus don't affect as much long distance trains (at least in less developed areas). The other fact is that major towns have so big commuter traffic that retaining there isolated Iberian gauge network is feasible option.

Regarding freight traffic it is more complicated as train can cover the same distance as long distance HS train while speed difference is high. But there are many examples of HS lines build as multipurpose. Basically every German HS line (apart from Frankfurt - Koeln) allow up to 1 freight train per hour during a day and unrestricted use during night. It only requires smoother inclines and declines of line as well as some additional stations. It is problematic but may be effective on less used HS lines. Although I suppose that before financial crisis everyone in Spain thought that there is enough money for separate lines for every traffic type.

And as we are in this subject do anybody know if on conventional line Santiago - Ourense - Requejo - Zamora - Medina del campo is freight traffic which couldn't be routed using other Iberian gauge lines. Or more precisely is there any reason why after building there new HS UIC line conventional Iberian gauge line will be still needed?




> 2015, they say. Works are underway between Vandellos and Vila-seca (between Tarragona and Valencia). Preliminary works have just started between Puçol and Moncofa (between Valencia and Castellon). Same goes for the section between Valencia-Fuente de San Luis and Valencia-Sant Isidre.
> As for the most crucial section (Castellbisbal-Tarragona-Vila-seca), they haven´t touched a pebble yet.
> The problem in that section is that it is commuter rail territory, so big disruptions will be on the menu... and there is an additional trouble: in the most crucial of this crucial sector (between Castellbisbal and Martorell), there´s a tunnel which is in very bad state.
> This tunnel alone can delay the works by itself, since it really is in very bad state, and the solution for that tunnel isn´t clear yet since the área is geologically complicated, and it is also planned to reopen an old abandoned parallel single-track tunnel to relieve the congestion (which couldn´t be done in no time since that compulsory implies the rebuilding of an old demolished viaduct over river Llobregat and the reworking of all the points at Martorell station, which is one of the main commuter rail termini), but we have no data about what they have in mind.


 So do I understand it right - Initially ADIF planned to build completely new UIC line from Barcelona through Martorell to Camp de Tarragona from where new double tracks should parallel the existing Iberian gauge line to Valencia. As I've mentioned earlier section Valencia - Taragona was slashed and replaced by triple tracks and UIC section to Tarragona. But As You write it looks that also this new line from Tarragona to Barcelona was slashed and replaced by re-gauging of conventional line in this direction?

And one question - can anybody update this maps of Spain and post them here as those maps are useful while initial author lost some vigor to update them although allows to change them and publish on rather open basis.
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/iberian-peninsula/iberian-peninsula.gif
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/madrid-area/madrid-area.gif
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/barcelona-area/barcelona-area.gif


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## 437.001

Richard_P said:


> To be clear we must acknowledge that Spain uses three types of sleepers.
> 1. First are mono gauge both Iberian or UIC.
> 2. Gauge convertible allowing to use Iberian or UIC but not both.
> 3. Triple rail for both gauges.
> Watching many Spain cab views (well mostly back views) I’ve spotted that ATM during modernisations on Iberian network are inserted only gauge convertible sleepers which watching its design should cost the same as mono gauge. Mono gauge sleepers with Iberian gauge are sometimes used but frankly i think that they are reused old sleepers taken from other lines.


Overall, yes, correct.



Richard_P said:


> Thanks to this migration for UIC gauge should be easy but it doesn't allow for a stopgap with three rails.


Correct.



Richard_P said:


> The biggest example is Mediterranean corridor which on Valencia - Tarragona (according to PDF which circulated the forum half year or so) from Valencia to Castellon should be dual gauge and further UIC gauge.


Dual gauge on both tracks between Castellon and Sagunt, and UIC gauge on one track and dual gauge on the other between Sagunt and Castellon.
That´s because thay want to keep Iberian gauge for the access to the ports of Castellon and Sagunt, and also because Sagunt is the junction for the Zaragoza-Teruel-Sagunt line.



Richard_P said:


> Achieving this may be a problem because gauge convertible sleepers were laid not triple rail and realising this project will also discontinue Iberian gauge on important corridor.


That´s assumed. Works are about to start between Puçol station (collateral to Sagunt station on the way to Valencia), and Moncofa station (between Sagunt and Castellon). Premilinary works have already started.



Richard_P said:


> I don't think that this is a crucial problem. Commuter traffic mostly covers short stretches of lines thus don't affect as much long distance trains (at least in less developed areas). The other fact is that major towns have so big commuter traffic that retaining there isolated Iberian gauge network is feasible option.


One particular thing of Spain is that in the areas with a commuter rail service, that service tends to serve a high density area, and usually shares services with regional rail, long distance rail and freight. Only a few lines are exclusive for commuter services, or have dedicated commuter rail tracks. In some cases, commuter rail is underdeveloped for various reasons, depending on the particular case. 



Richard_P said:


> Regarding freight traffic it is more complicated as train can cover the same distance as long distance HS train while speed difference is high. But there are many examples of HS lines build as multipurpose. Basically every German HS line (apart from Frankfurt - Koeln) allow up to 1 freight train per hour during a day and unrestricted use during night. It only requires smoother inclines and declines of line as well as some additional stations. It is problematic but may be effective on less used HS lines.


On some lines that´s been foreseseen, such as Seville-Cadiz, Corunna-Santiago de Compostela-Vigo, or Crevillente (Alicante)-Murcia, but that´s because they´re actually upgraded classic lines.

Keep in mind that gradients in Spain are no small feat: the country is the most mountainous in Europe after Switzerland, so you have to keep a proportion between that and travel time (and costs in mountainous areas!, a mixed traffic HSL will always be more expensive due to the low gradients required).



Richard_P said:


> Although I suppose that before financial crisis everyone in Spain thought that there is enough money for separate lines for every traffic type.


 I could go on for quite a bit about this, but let´s say that politicians have also their part into it. But the paragraph immediately above this one should also be an answer for this, geography counts very much in Spain.



Richard_P said:


> And as we are in this subject do anybody know if on conventional line Santiago - Ourense - Requejo - Zamora - Medina del campo is freight traffic which couldn't be routed using other Iberian gauge lines. Or more precisely is there any reason why after building there new HS UIC line conventional Iberian gauge line will be still needed?


Good question. We´ll see what they make of the classic line there, since there is one alternative route (alternative route that is just as difficult as the classic line if not worse, although it is electrified -actually it is electrfied because its profile is much worse in places), but be sure, though, that no freight will be allowed on that stretch of the HSL under construction. Theoretically, the classic line Medina del Campo-Zamora-Ourense is part of the European network for freight. We´ll see.



Richard_P said:


> So do I understand it right - Initially ADIF planned to build completely new UIC line from Barcelona through Martorell to Camp de Tarragona from where new double tracks should parallel the existing Iberian gauge line to Valencia.


Not between Martorell and Camp de Tarragona, if what you mean is a new passenger-only HSL (there already is a HSL between Martorell and Camp de Tarragona). 

There was talk about that, on the press in particular, for freight, but no serious plans came out of that. Planning for freight started out as an upgrade of the current classic line, and it sticks to that. The only possible new alternative (which has been considered and still is, but no decision has been made yet) could be a later reopening of a classic line closed in 1990 to liberate the line between Sant Vicenç de Calders and Vila-seca, which crosses large urban areas and potentially could see a new commuter rail service.

As for Camp de Tarragona-Valencia... planning didn´t even start before the crisis, exception made of the Valencia-Castellon HSL (exclusive for passengers, and thought to avoid the merger with freight, regional, and commuter rail between Valencia and Castellon), which almost got started.

The classic line between Castellon and Tarragona is slowly being upgraded since the 1990s, and the section between Vandellos and Vila-seca is still being built (unfinished for the last twenty years -here in Tarragona we´re quite bitter for that), but now they´ve given it the final push, so it is advancing really fast, and it now includes a new passenger-only link from Vila-seca for Camp de Tarragona.



Richard_P said:


> As I've mentioned earlier section Valencia - Taragona was slashed and replaced by triple tracks and UIC section to Tarragona.


No, it was never slashed, since it was never fully considered in official stages, exception made of Valencia-Castellon, which got preliminary works almost started. I still don´t discard the construction of Valencia-Castellon in a later, better moment.



Richard_P said:


> But As You write it looks that also this new line from Tarragona to Barcelona was slashed and replaced by re-gauging of conventional line in this direction?


That´s never been considered officially, just campaigned for from the press and certain political sides.



Richard_P said:


> And one question - can anybody update this maps of Spain and post them here as those maps are useful while initial author lost some vigor to update them although allows to change them and publish on rather open basis.
> http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/iberian-peninsula/iberian-peninsula.gif
> http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/madrid-area/madrid-area.gif
> http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/barcelona-area/barcelona-area.gif


I´m afraid something´s going on with Thorsten Büker and Boris Chomenko, since years ago I sent them some emails and was answered, I had my hopes high, but finally no updates were made. Note that no other updates to any country/area map have been made in two years, either.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Good question. We´ll see what they make of the classic line there, *since there is one alternative route *(alternative route that is just as difficult as the classic line if not worse, although it is electrified -actually it is electrfied because its profile is much worse in places), but be sure, though, that no freight will be allowed on that stretch of the HSL under construction. Theoretically, the classic line Medina del Campo-Zamora-Ourense is part of the European network for freight. We´ll see.


Which route do you mean? 

Some places will gain a lot from this new line (Zamora, for example), but there doesn't seem to be any towns which will lose traffic as is usually the case. I checked and the few existing trains only stop twice between Zamora and Ourense and there are supposed to be HS station in at least one of them. If that is so the old line between those two cities could as well be turned into freight only line or abandoned altogether if no one needs it for freight.


----------



## 437.001

Richard_P said:


> So OK, Valencia - Barcelona classic line will be mostly converted into UIC Gauge with some dual gauge sections but what with electric catenaries. ATM line is electrified at 3 kV DC so will it remain after regauging or 25 kV 50 Hz will be used there?


25kV between Camp de Tarragona and Vila-seca (connections to classic line not included).
From Vila-seca to Valencia it will be 3kV.



Richard_P said:


> I wasn't talking about which model (French or German) should Spain follow because it is clear that country is big enough and population distribution is such that only French model can give satisfactory results. Although looking at results I would rather say that Spain found its own way and it should be called "Spanish model" which is merger of fast lines common in France with straight connection in city centers (common in Germany). Both Madrid and Barcelona have underground HSL connections not circular lines like Paris. Zaragozza has detour tracks but also connection to city centre where AVE stop next to Iberian gauge trains not like Lyon with its centre and airport stations. In the same time travel speed between cities is much bigger than in Germany - so Spain has its own HS model.


Compared to France, I think we can also say that the difference of gauge has played its role, although this will decrease, then stop in years to come, as the classic network will progressively be converted to standard gauge (and probably important parts of the metric gauge network too). 



Richard_P said:


> But getting back to subject TSI standards for HS lines were set at more conservative parameters which was pushed by Germans. So basically every new HS line can't reply grade parameters of first TGV line thus freight traffic should be possible.


That´s a bit odd, since it may satisfy German parameters, but not necessarily the ones of countries that are less geographically gifted. But I´d rather not comment much political decisions, since they can be changed and they aren´t always made with "the big picture" in mind, but rather more immediate and not always wide-minded purposes (and obviously this applies to all the politicians in every country). 

And then again, if you can use classic lines for freight, why bother with every HSL to be made for mixed traffic? That may suit the particular case... or not. It isn´t a matter of duplicating every line with a HSL, but it isn´t the case with every line, sometimes it´s good to have traffics separated and a classic line with more room that can allow extra freight. I´m not going to say Spain has done things perfect, quite far from that in fact, but I think each case requires its own solution, the one that suits each situation better (and with an eye to the future, just in case). 

Let´s not forget that some classic lines were built in the past to standards that, in comparison, were much more revolutionary than some new HSLs are, i.e. the Great Western Railway in Britain, a masterpiece of a railway, born out of the genius of IK Brunel, planned in the mid-19th century, and which is actually almost a HSL. 
And let´s not forget, either, that in the beginning railways were considered little less than satanic, odd as it sounds nowadays.  

p.s: I have two questions: what exactly means "ATM"? And "TSI"? :? :hmm: I kind of guess it but I´m not completely sure about it.
My technical English isn´t always top notch. Thank you. 



alserrod said:


> Not Valencia-Barcelona but Valencia-Tarragona central (somewhere in Reus Airport)


I think it finally was 25kV Camp de Tarragona-Vila-seca and 3kV Vila-seca-Valencia. Neutral section at Vila-seca.
The so called "Tarragona-Central" (which isn´t central to the city at all :|) won´t be built in the years to come. Maybe it won´t be built at all.


----------



## alserrod

Either it isn't at Tarragona, is it?

By the way, how is that station building going on?


----------



## 437.001

alserrod said:


> Either it isn't at Tarragona, is it?
> 
> By the way, how is that station building going on?


I´ve just answered that, the line just on top of these two of yours, the last on my post... ^^ :shifty::clown:


----------



## Richard_P

437.001 said:


> Compared to France, I think we can also say that the difference of gauge has played its role, although this will decrease, then stop in years to come, as the classic network will progressively be converted to standard gauge (and probably important parts of the metric gauge network too).


Well I think that despite gauge difference Spain model for HSL is better and if Spain would have unique gauge this would be seen right now.



> And then again, if you can use classic lines for freight, why bother with every HSL to be made for mixed traffic?


 Well because classic line is Iberian gauge while there is much interest in UIC gauge freight at least on some corridors. It is also question of money as let say 6 trains per day are low to justify fully double track HSL line. Well even 1 HS train an hour leaves very much space for additional freight. Regarding distances in Spain between HS trains in 1 hour freight train can cover up to 60 km between passing loops. So there is much space to accommodate freight without doubling infrastructure.

But to be fair I also think that traffic separation should be widely spread as both types require different solutions. HS requires straight lines with short passing loops of just 400 m while freight with low maximum speed do not require such sophisticated infrastructure but it prefer long side tracks preferably 1,5 km long. But it is up to feasibility calculations which option is best. I think that at least in first phase Spain should allow freight on some HS lines with some additional passing of highly used sections while on second phase rebuild parts of conventional network to place there freight.




> p.s: I have two questions: what exactly means "ATM"? And "TSI"? :? :hmm: I kind of guess it but I´m not completely sure about it.
> My technical English isn´t always top notch. Thank you.


To be honest I also had problems with AFAIK which is simply "as far as I know" 
ATM means "at this moment" while TSI is shortening of "Technical Specifications for Interoperability". TSIs are important as they form modern sets of rules to which EU member countries must adapt their local law (in HS thread I've written about platform height and its complications in some states). The TSIs can be found on ERA site (link below) but basically every national rail authority publishes it on its own pages with native language so I think that You will find them on ADIF pages.

http://www.era.europa.eu/Core-Activities/Interoperability/Pages/TechnicalSpecifications.aspx


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

Pictures of the sector between the river Ulla viaduct and the future Padrón-Barbanza new station.



asannei said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

River Ulla viaduct.



asannei said:


>


----------



## 437.001

Richard_P said:


> Well I think that despite gauge difference Spain model for HSL is better and if Spain would have unique gauge this would be seen right now.


The ministry says they have to give priority to the change of gauge.
I tend to believe it, for now... let´s be merciful. :|



Richard_P said:


> To be honest I also had problems with AFAIK which is simply "as far as I know"
> ATM means "at this moment" while TSI is shortening of "Technical Specifications for Interoperability". TSIs are important as they form modern sets of rules to which EU member countries must adapt their local law (in HS thread I've written about platform height and its complications in some states). The TSIs can be found on ERA site (link below) but basically every national rail authority publishes it on its own pages with native language so I think that You will find them on ADIF pages.
> 
> http://www.era.europa.eu/Core-Activities/Interoperability/Pages/TechnicalSpecifications.aspx


Oh, it was that. Thanks...


----------



## Xoser_barcelona

*Pipe dreams for Barcelona*

Hey guys. The other day I was walking along the shore line in Barcelona from Barceloneta to Zona Franca and I was wondering if it would be possible to connect Barcelona Estació de França with the other side of Montjuic. It would make Estació de França more interesting again (Like PIO in Madrid) and divert some traffic maybe of the two central routes. I would personally add Rodalies Glories as well and we'd be set for years to come. Has anyone ever seen or heard about an idea like this?


----------



## 437.001

error post


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## 437.001

error post


----------



## Xoser_barcelona

437.001 said:


> ^^
> 
> *The plans are as follows (in no particular order of priority):*
> 
> -finishing and opening the extension of line *S1* between Terrassa-Rambla and Terrassa-Can Roca (aka Terrassa-Nacions Unides), including three new underground stations at Vallparadís-Universitat (which will be very busy), Terrassa-Estació del Nord (connection with Rodalies Renfe line *R4*, and crucial point of this extension, since it is foreseen to become a mejor connection station), and the aforemetioned Terrassa-Can Roca.
> It should be opening next year, and it is one of the reasons why class 113 EMUs are being purchased (the other is the replacement of class 111 EMUs).
> 
> -upgrade of several Rodalies Renfe stations (on all lines, *R4* in particular).
> The general state of the Rodalies Renfe stations has improved dramatically in many cases, in particular as far as accessibility is concerned. But there still are many stations in bad to horrible state, and they should keep up focussing on that, it´ll only make them win new passengers.
> 
> -finishing and opening the extension of line *S2* between Sabadell-Estació and Sabadell-Ca N´Oriac, including five new underground stations: Sabadell-Estació itself (which now is in surface), Sabadell-Plaça Major (replacing the old Sabadell-rambla station, which is in single track), Sabadell-Eix Macià (comercial area), Sabadell-Nord (connection with Rodalies Renfe line *R4*, and just as crucial as the connection between *S1* and *R4* at Terrassa-Estació del Nord, this one will see hordes of passengers), and Sabadell-Ca N´Oriac (serving a northern Sabadell quarter).
> 
> -improvements in signalling, such as the ERTMS and so on.
> 
> -double-tracking of certain parts of line *R3*, notably between Montcada-Ripollet and La Garriga, one of the most charged lines, due to the fact that it´s single track and trains tend to be overcrowded as they are 3-car EMUs in most cases.
> 
> -double-tracking, wherever posible, line *R1* between Arenys de Mar and Blanes, which will be quite difficult, as the line follows the sea front, it´s on the beach.
> 
> -posible opening of two or three much-demanded stations: Santa Perpètua-Can Folguera (on line *R8*, started but unfinished), Montornès del Vallès (on lines *R2* and *R8* between montmeló and Granollers-Centre, which is a town without station, even though it´s crossed by the railway lilne), and Montmeló-Nord (on line *R3*, near the nothern end of said town, and also an industrial estate, and the F1 circuit).
> 
> -maybe other things that we don´t know yet, but overall, there are no more plans.


Thanks. What about connecting Trambesòs to the Maresme line and enabling tram-train operations? Couldn't be too expensive except for maybe lowering some platforms until Badalona? As you can see, only if you say 3 times crisis will I believe there is no money anymore. Raise taxes on the rich, everyone happy :lol:


----------



## 437.001

Xoser_barcelona said:


> Thanks. What about connecting Trambesòs to the Maresme line and enabling tram-train operations? Couldn't be too expensive except for maybe lowering some platforms until Badalona? As you can see, only if you say 3 times crisis will I believe there is no money anymore. Raise taxes on the rich, everyone happy :lol:


Oh, no, you´ve already answered. :doh:

I thought I was in another thread of another subforum, this one, this is off topic here, so this discussion shall better continue there. 

I delete my last two posts as I´ve just reposted them on the right thread, just while you were answering this ^^. 
You shall answer there, I won´t continue this discussion here. 

Sorry.


----------



## Xoser_barcelona

437.001 said:


> Oh, no, you´ve already answered. :doh:
> 
> I thought I was in another thread of another subforum, this one, this is off topic here, so this discussion shall better continue there.
> 
> I delete my last two posts as I´ve just reposted them on the right thread, just while you were answering this ^^.
> You shall answer there, I won´t continue this discussion here.
> 
> Sorry.


Jawohl and sorry 

Addition, the Bridge in Galicia technically should be in the Spanish High Speed Rail thread right..sorry couldn't resist


----------



## 437.001

Xoser_barcelona said:


> Addition, the Bridge in Galicia technically should be in the Spanish High Speed Rail thread right..sorry couldn't resist


It shouldn´t. That´s an upgrade of a classic line, not a pure HSL.

The bridge will see freight and regional classic trains too.


----------



## 437.001

*Valencia-Nord station.*

A class 592 DMU in Cercanías Renfe livery.

It is worth of note that this one has just two cars, since the third car was destroyed in an accident.



sergioytomas said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

Images of the new section between Padrón and the river Ulla viaduct:



asannei said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line.
Section Medina del Campo-Salamanca.*

According to the last info, the poles are in place between Medina del Campo and Cantalapiedra. 

A map of the electrification of this section, showing the stations (light blue and black), the power stations (green), and the autotransformation centres (red). 
Tejares-Chamberí station is not included in this phase, it will be electrified on the second phase Salamanca-Vilar Formoso.



CARBALOSIELLA said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Tarragona-Valencia line.
New section Camp de Tarragona-Vilaseca-Vandellos.*

An image of the new platform taken somewhere between Cambrils and Miami Platja.



> http://www.diaridetarragona.com/noticia.php?id=17780


This line will make trains save time, but trains won´t stop at the centre of Cambrils nor at Salou anymore, it seems, this is quite controversial except for the local politicians and the NIMBYs, since Renfe didn´t want to take away the classic line in the beginning because it will lose passengers, but it seems that it finally gave in.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ closing central stations is nearly always pure madness.

What gauge will be used and where? Where will the gauge changers be placed? I know that the Barcelona-Valencia should be the first converted main line (so the new line might open together with the conversion), but the sleepers in that photos seems to be dual gauge sleepers (as usual), but configured for broad gauge.

Is there already a date for the last day of broad gauge operation on the Barcelona-Valencia line?


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ closing central stations is nearly always pure madness.


Unless they´re replaced by another central station, it certainly is.



Coccodrillo said:


> What gauge will be used and where?


Good question.

The current plan was/is standard gauge from Vilaseca to Castellon, third rail between Castellbisbal and Vilaseca (on just one of the tracks), and also between Castellon and Valencia (on one of the tracks between Castellon and Sagunt, and on both tracks between Sagunt and Valencia).

But it seems that things could perhaps change (again!)... hno:



Coccodrillo said:


> Where will the gauge changers be placed?


One should be placed in Tarragona, but we don´t know the exact location yet.
But given the current state of things, it´s maybe too soon to talk about precise dates and places.



Coccodrillo said:


> I know that the Barcelona-Valencia should be the first converted main line (so the new line might open together with the conversion), but the sleepers in that photos seems to be dual gauge sleepers (as usual), but configured for broad gauge.


They´re supposed to be installed in Iberian gauge only during the laying of the rails (they´re starting from Vandellos, an Iberian gauge-only station), to later be switched to standard gauge.



Coccodrillo said:


> Is there already a date for the last day of broad gauge operation on the Barcelona-Valencia line?


No. Actually... there might *not* be a gauge change, if the ministry keeps on paying attention to certain people.
Let´s see what happens, because we´re all quite angry at that in SSC Spain. :sleepy:

Some businessmen from Barcelona and Valencia, and the Catalan regional government, are asking the ministry to not change the gauge and put a third rail instead.
The minister said she would talk to the technicians to see what can be done about that.

It looks like a private company doesn´t want to pay for the gauge change of their rolling stock, and they demand third rail instead of gauge change.


----------



## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line.
Section Medina del Campo-Salamanca.*

Electrification works have reached Salamanca.
Soon we´ll see the poles in the station.



CARBALOSIELLA said:


>


----------



## pai nosso

^^
*It only lacks the rehabilitation and electrification of the line on the right!!!!*:lol::lol::lol:










La Fuente de San Esteban Station
Source: Panoramio


P.S.: Thanks for the photos


----------



## 437.001

pai nosso said:


> ^^
> *It only lacks the rehabilitation and electrification of the line on the right!!!!*:lol::lol::lol:


Sorry, which line do you mean? :?



pai nosso said:


> La Fuente de San Esteban Station
> Source: Panoramio


The draisine is at the start of the old La Fuente de San Esteban-Barca d´Alva line (the Douro line). The Spanish side of the line closed in 1985.



pai nosso said:


> P.S.: Thanks for the photos


You´re welcome.


----------



## pai nosso

437.001 said:


> Sorry, which line do you mean? :?


Wishful dreams of a rehabilitation and electrification of the old La Fuente de San Esteban-Barca d´Alva line (the Douro line)!!:lol::lol:


----------



## Gadiri

edit


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

River Ulla viaduct.

_Images taken from the south side of the viaduct, and its approach_:



SC.sidon said:


>


----------



## Sunfuns

Is that green colour the final look of the viaduct?


----------



## Reivajar

Yes, it is.

It has been projected with that color from the beginning.


----------



## 437.001

^^
Our mini-Forth Bridge (bagpipes included).


----------



## 437.001

*Alicante-Murcia line.*

The HSL proper really finishing at Crevillent, the section between Crevillent and Murcia will share traffic with commuter rail, regional rail and freight, and will run mostly where the current classic line does, I don´t feature it in the HSR thread anymore, but better here.

The minister visited the works at Callosa de Segura, where the tunnel has been finally bored: 



Mare_nostrvm said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Huéneja Dólar-Minas del Marquesado branch line (closed).*

It closed some years ago. 
It was a freight-only line, from where legendary mineral trains went to the Almeria port using the Linares-Almeria line in one of the steepest gradients in Spain (between Huéneja Dólar and Gádor), which used to require class 313 quadruple traction (2 pulling + 2 pushing) before the electrification. 

The electrification was used for just a few years, since the mines closed.
Now there´s talk of a reopening. Who knows...

This is one of my favourite parts of Spain.



Rayancito said:


>


----------



## dirdam

^^ Spectacular sight of this part of Spain https://www.google.es/maps?ll=37.22...ssQ5Q&cbp=,240.13,,0,10.360001&output=classic


----------



## AlexNL

I really like the look of that green viaduct with the curves underneath.


----------



## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> I really like the look of that green viaduct with the curves underneath.


It will look good, that´s sure.
River Ulla will become the most _trainspotter-friendly_ river in Spain, that´s certain (two viaducts, the one you´re talking about, and the other one on the Madrid-Santiago HSL).


----------



## Reivajar

^^ How looks like the viaduct of the Madrid-Santiago HSL over the Ulloa river?


----------



## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> *Huéneja Dólar-Minas del Marquesado branch line (closed).*
> 
> It closed some years ago.
> It was a freight-only line, from where legendary mineral trains went to the Almeria port using the Linares-Almeria line in one of the steepest gradients in Spain (between Huéneja Dólar and Gádor), which used to require class 313 quadruple traction (2 pulling + 2 pushing) before the electrification.
> 
> The electrification was used for just a few years, since the mines closed.
> Now there´s talk of a reopening. Who knows...
> 
> This is one of my favourite parts of Spain.


Initially electrified with 3-phase AC, never connected to the rest of the electrified network...

http://euroferroviarios.net/index.php?name=Reviews&req=showcontent&id=5045


----------



## AlexNL

437.001 said:


> It will look good, that´s sure.
> River Ulla will become the most _trainspotter-friendly_ river in Spain, that´s certain (two viaducts, the one you´re talking about, and the other one on the Madrid-Santiago HSL).


Judging by the photos and the artist's impressions I think you might be right. However, a lot will depend on the positioning of the catenary poles and the distance between the train spotter and the bridge.

When constructing High Speed 1 in the UK they had to build a viaduct to cross the Medway river. While the bridge and the scenery is rather beautiful, in my opinion it's a very tough place to take good picture for a number of reasons:

1) First you'll have to find a good scene. The landscape is rather hilly, so if you have a bad spot you're mostly photographing the underside of the bridge. You don't want to get too close to the railway line either as this will limit the scenery you can get onto your picture.
2) The catenary poles are positioned really close together. It's quite a challenge to get a good picture of the train you wanted without a post right in the middle of its nose.
3) British weather: cloudy, plenty of rain and rather cold.

That doesn't mean it's any less fun.

Knowing Spain (a bit), the weather is overall better. Now there's hoping that the catenary posts will be a bit further apart... 

When this LAV is supposed to open for commercial services? Perhaps it was already mentioned here but then I missed it...


----------



## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> 3) British weather: cloudy, plenty of rain and rather cold.
> 
> That doesn't mean it's any less fun.
> 
> Knowing Spain (a bit), the weather is overall better. Now there's hoping that the catenary posts will be a bit further apart...


Sloooow dooooownnn, we´re talking about Galicia here... Galicia is just as rainy and cloudy as Britain. Only the temperature is a bit warmer, but just a bit. :yes:



AlexNL said:


> When this LAV is supposed to open for commercial services? Perhaps it was already mentioned here but then I missed it...


2015, if everything´s ok. Late 2015, probably.


----------



## AlexNL

437.001 said:


> Sloooow dooooownnn, we´re talking about Galicia here... Galicia is just as rainy and cloudy as Britain. Only the temperature is a bit warmer, but just a bit. :yes:


The warmth will help. 


> 2015, if everything´s ok. Late 2015, probably.


Alright, thanks.


----------



## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> The warmth will help.


:| et: Been there in winter, ever?


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> Initially electrified with 3-phase AC, never connected to the rest of the electrified network...
> 
> http://euroferroviarios.net/index.php?name=Reviews&req=showcontent&id=5045


The electrification of the Almeria line was between Santa Fe-Alhama and Gergal (1912), then extended from Gergal to Nacimiento and from Santa Fe-Alhama to Gador in the 1930s, and the missing sector between Gador and Almeria in 1963... to be cancelled in 1966!!

The line was reelectrified in the 1980s in 3 kV DC, this time between Huéneja-Dólar and Almeria, and the branch line from Huéneja-Dólar to Minas del Marquesado. 

Trains don´t use it now, albeit it is in service between Huéneja-Dólar and Almeria, but it´s likely that when the HSL reaches Granada, new Alvia services to Almeria from Madrid (and maybe Seville) will use it again, if the missing link between Huéneja-Dólar and Granada is electrified (or if there are enough S-730). 

Here´s a picture of the last 3-phase locos, at what I guess is *Benahadux-Pechina station*:



> http://www.spanishrailway.com/wp-content/uploads/Guergal-a-Almeria-Jose-Antonio-Gomez-Martinez.jpg


----------



## AlexNL

437.001 said:


> :| et: Been there in winter, ever?


I've never been to Galicia (as far as I can remember), especially not during the winter. Should I ever go over there for trainspotting it will most likely be in summer or early fall. 

offtopic: Lately Spain has gotten more on my radar as a holiday destination. So far my visits have mostly been to places such as L'Estartit, Piñeda de Mar, Malgrat de Mar and Cambrils, and I made a quick visit to Barcelona (by train from Malgrat de Mar). I want to see more of Spain, but then not primarily for the beaches but to see stuff instead.


----------



## alserrod

Try to say what are you looking for and will try to help you. 

We have prepared some railtours for forumers who could join visiting places and travelling around scenics from the train.


----------



## Trenponfe

InterCity Vigo - Madrid and Arco A Coruña/Vigo - Bilbao/Hendaye at Ponferrada station.


----------



## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> I've never been to Galicia (as far as I can remember), especially not during the winter. Should I ever go over there for trainspotting it will most likely be in summer or early fall.


Ok. Keep this in mind: it _will_ rain in Galicia or anywhere else in northern Spain on the Atlantic side (as far as I know, there are no midges like in Scotland, but _always_ have an umbrella at hand, just as much as if you were going to Ireland, Scotland or Wales). 



AlexNL said:


> offtopic: Lately Spain has gotten more on my radar as a holiday destination. So far my visits have mostly been to places such as L'Estartit, Piñeda de Mar, Malgrat de Mar and Cambrils, and I made a quick visit to Barcelona (by train from Malgrat de Mar). I want to see more of Spain, but then not primarily for the beaches but to see stuff instead.


You haven´t seen a thing, fella. :lol:


----------



## Ribarca

Agreed there. If you are a Dutchman and you love trains take the Thalys to Paris, then from Paris go to Barcelona with the new (for a large part) high speed connection. Then with an AVE find your way to Madrid and end up in Seville. Sevilla, Granada and Cordoba form the region's cultural triangle. The North is beautiful and green but to me at least Andalucia is Spain's cultural treasure. Just don't go in the summer time. In the spring the landscapes are much more beautiful and above all it's less hot. if you want to include some beach skip the med but head for the Atlantic coast instead which is much much nicer here.


----------



## AlexNL

437.001 said:


> You haven´t seen a thing, fella. :lol:


I know! That's why I want to go there 



Ribarca said:


> Agreed there. If you are a Dutchman and you love trains take the Thalys to Paris, then from Paris go to Barcelona with the new (for a large part) high speed connection. Then with an AVE find your way to Madrid and end up in Seville. Sevilla, Granada and Cordoba form the region's cultural triangle. The North is beautiful and green but to me at least Andalucia is Spain's cultural treasure. Just don't go in the summer time. In the spring the landscapes are much more beautiful and above all it's less hot. if you want to include some beach skip the med but head for the Atlantic coast instead which is much much nicer here.


Thanks for the tips, much appreciated!


----------



## 437.001

Ribarca said:


> Agreed there. If you are a Dutchman and you love trains take the Thalys to Paris, then from Paris go to Barcelona with the new (for a large part) high speed connection. Then with an AVE find your way to Madrid and end up in Seville. Sevilla, Granada and Cordoba form the region's cultural triangle. The North is beautiful and green but to me at least Andalucia is Spain's cultural treasure. Just don't go in the summer time.


...unless you like to suffer and be tortured and etc. :troll:

Seriously, Seville and Cordoba can go as far as 50ºC in July-August (no, I am not exaggerating).

I think many northerners find Andalusia very peculiar, it is indeed a beautiful region, but I wouldn´t miss the other regions in the slightest.

To me, anyone who wants to pretend to know Spain a bit must know the south, but also the north (food´s best in the north, weather isn´t). 

And the rest too (Extremadura´s an unknown treasure, and Castille keeps plenty of monumental towns and villages). 



Ribarca said:


> In the spring the landscapes are much more beautiful and above all it's less hot. if you want to include some beach skip the med but head for the Atlantic coast instead which is much much nicer here.


The Atlantic southern coast, *Ribarca* means. The Atlantic northern coast´s okay in summer, but it´s like the UK -it may still rain.
Anyway, the water in the Atlantic is much colder. The water in the Med isn´t cold, but it´s packed in summer.



AlexNL said:


> I know! That's why I want to go there






AlexNL said:


> Thanks for the tips, much appreciated!


Don´t mention.

If you want to do it by train, just ask me. I know every line in the country but two.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Anyway, the water in the Atlantic is much colder. The water in the Med isn´t cold, but it´s packed in summer.


I've done this only in Italy and France, but perhaps it's similar on Spanish Mediterranean coast that the best time to visit is end of May and very beginning of June. Already very warm and most facilities are open, but no overwhelming crowds yet. Two years ago I took a road trip along the coast from Genoa to Marseille and it was perfect weather. It was even possible to swim (ca +20 C) albeit that wasn't the purpose of the trip.


----------



## 437.001

^^
September-early October are ok too.


----------



## Ribarca

^^

Have you ever made a thread with the most interesting train routes in Spain (or combinations of routes on a trip). That would be very interesting:cheers:.


----------



## aby_since82

437.001 said:


> Seriously, Seville and Cordoba can go as far as 50ºC in July-August (no, I am not exaggerating).


Are you sure? the maxim temperature registred on both cities don't arrive to 47º ... the termic sensation is different.


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

River Ulla viaduct.



Papos said:


>


----------



## 437.001

aby_since82 said:


> Are you sure? the maxim temperature registred on both cities don't arrive to 47º ... the termic sensation is different.


Well, yes, such mild temperatures like 47ºC plus the termic sensation... a delight for the senses indeed. :smug:

Besides, are we here to discuss the weather? :sly:


----------



## MarcVD

Ribarca said:


> take the Thalys to Paris, then from Paris go to Barcelona with the new (for a large part) high speed connection. Then with an AVE find your way to Madrid and end up in Seville.


If you've got enough high-speed with the Paris-Barcelona journey, consider 
using the daily "normal" train between Barcelona and Seville, if it still exists.
It takes a full day, but every minute of this journey will reward you with very 
interesting railway sights and practices, as well as wonderful landscapes all 
the way. The slow speed will give you plenty of time to admire it. The train
is named "Garcia Lorca", departs Barcelona Sants around 8:00 (last time I 
checked) and is split up en route, to Sevilla, Cordoba, Granada and Malaga (I 
took the Malaga branch). It was packed (really) when I used it, so reserving 
your seat might be a wise option.


----------



## dirdam

^^ It still exists and takes about 11h 30m between Barcelona and Seville (via Valencia and Albacete), instead of 5h 30m of HSTs via Zaragoza and Ciudad Real.


----------



## alserrod

And it have links with shutltles for all "formee destinations" of that train. This is, you keep able to go from Barcelona/Valencia to the south of Extremadura changing once the train.

Anyway, it would be faster to take a HS train from Barcelona to Puertollano and later a regional train


----------



## 437.001

And no less interesting in terms of landscape, and it may even be cheaper, depending on how much in advance you book your tickets.


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

According to the article I link (in Spanish), it looks like the upgrade at Pontevedra station could be ready in May, and the sector Vilagarcía-Pontevedra-Arcade by the end of the year.

The sections Vilagarcía-A Escravitude (including the river Ulla viaduct at Catoira that I´ve often posted), and Arcade-Vigo Urzáiz (including the total reconstruction of Vigo-Urzáiz station) will open later sometime in 2015 or 2016.

An image of the works at *Pontevedra station*:



> http://www.farodevigo.es/portada-pontevedra/2014/02/10/veinte-kilometros-maquina/964434.html


----------



## Sunfuns

Do I understand correctly that the most advanced sections you mention will be opened before the other ones? Do they electrify the route section by section even though it won't be needed before the whole line is open or they leave that for later? 

The viaduct doesn't look all that far from being finished. 2015 should be it unless they run out of money.


----------



## solchante

AlexNL said:


> ...
> 
> offtopic: Lately Spain has gotten more on my radar as a holiday destination. So far my visits have mostly been to places such as L'Estartit, Piñeda de Mar, Malgrat de Mar and Cambrils, and I made a quick visit to Barcelona (by train from Malgrat de Mar). I want to see more of Spain, but then not primarily for the beaches but to see stuff instead.



don´t forget this threads 

*España - One photo every post*

* The shadows of Middle Ages in the villages of Spain
*
*discover the most beautiful cities in spain*


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Irun/Hendaye classic line.*
*Valladolid-Campo Grande station*.

_Trains_:


----------



## Trenponfe

León - Monforte de Lemos (- A Coruña) classic line, near Ponferrada.
Renfe class 252 with 'Arco' Basque Country - Galicia, Renfe class 251 with an iron/steel freight train and InterCity Ponferrada - Madrid (Renfe class 121).


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Albacete classic line.*
*Villarrobledo station.*

Trains:


----------



## 437.001

*Betanzos-Ferrol line.
Neda station.*

_Talgo Trenhotel and Alvia services through the station_:


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Seville HSL* + *Ciudad Real-Badajoz line* + *Manzanares-Ciudad Real line*.
*Ciudad Real station.*

_Trains_:


----------



## Coccodrillo

MarcVD said:


> The slow speed will give you plenty of time to admire it.


Only if your seat is near a window. Sometimes it happens, but it is not that usual...


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid Atocha-Recoletos-Madrid Chamartín line.
Recoletos station.*

The station, one of the most central in Madrid, is in desperate need of an upgrade.

_Commuter trains (Cercanías), class 450, 447 and 465_:


----------



## 437.001

*Los Rosales-Zafra-Mérida line.
Usagre-Bienvenida station.* 

The station was closed long time ago.
Note the bad state of the track. Pity, since the line would allow for very good speeds if they finished the upgrade.

_A freight train_:


----------



## 437.001

*Barcelona-La Sagrera station (under construction).*

_Trains_:


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*
*Vigo-Urzáiz station (under reconstruction).*



zoltan said:


>





zoltan said:


>





zoltan said:


>





zoltan said:


>


----------



## MarcVD

Coccodrillo said:


> Only if your seat is near a window. Sometimes it happens, but it is not that usual...


When I did that, I went 1st class. 80 Euros for 11 hours of pleasure, I did not
take it as expensive. And in that car, I'm sure that every seat had a window
(that's a conventional train, with cars hauled by an electric locomotive).
In 2nd class cars, I'm not sure. But you are generally less likely to encounter
blind seats in conventional cars than in high-speed rakes.


----------



## Suburbanist

I thought there were no direct train link between Murcia and Comunidad Valenciana alongside the coast...


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> I thought there were no direct train link between Murcia and Comunidad Valenciana alongside the coast...


There isn´t (excepting a part of the section Torrellano-San Gabriel on the Murcia-Alicante line, but that´s a short sector). 

Why do you say this? :?


----------



## Coccodrillo

MarcVD said:


> When I did that, I went 1st class. 80 Euros for 11 hours of pleasure, I did not
> take it as expensive. And in that car, I'm sure that every seat had a window
> (that's a conventional train, with cars hauled by an electric locomotive).
> In 2nd class cars, I'm not sure. But you are generally less likely to encounter
> blind seats in conventional cars than in high-speed rakes.


Apparently some builders (CAF, Stadler, maybe Bombardier) think before installing seats so that most if not all their trains have seats next to the windows, other don't (Talgo, Siemens, Alstom), and match seats and windows only if asked to do so (the ETR 600 is basically the same train as the ETR 610, but the former has blind seats, the latter doesn't).

Most conventional cars were built in an era where there was more attention in building trains.


----------



## 437.001

*Lleida-La Pobla de Segur line.*
Between *Àger* and *Cellers-Llimiana* stations.

This Iberian gauge line currently belongs to FGC, although for many years it used to belong to Renfe/Adif.
It is currently exploited with Renfe rolling stock, such as the class 592 DMU of the pic, but it looks like in the future FGC will buy some DMUs to Stadler.



SEIM said:


> Source: Ramón Vilalta


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

River Ulla viaduct, at Catoira:



SC.sidon said:


>


----------



## BE0GRAD

^^

Nice detail. You can see boxes which isolate the welding process from external influences.


----------



## 437.001

*News:*

The ministry is writing the project of the third rail between Astigarraga (end of the Basque "Y" HSL), and Irun (end of the standard gauge from France).

Source (in Spanish) here.


----------



## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Zamora-Puebla de Sanabria-Ourense classic line.*
Near *Toro* station.

_An Alvia, served by a double composition of class 730, on its way from Madrid to Vigo and Corunna. The train will be split in two at Ourense station_:


----------



## 437.001

*Santander-Oviedo line.*

Near *Toraño* station (Asturias), there´s been a landslide because of the river Sella (see the pics). The cut will last till Tuesday. 
They´re having quite some shitty weather on the Atlantic, this year (I mean more than usual). 



> http://www.elcomercio.es/20140302/asturias/oriente/argayo-obliga-cortar-feve-201403021803.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.elcomercio.es/20140302/asturias/oriente/argayo-obliga-cortar-feve-201403021803.html


----------



## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line.*
*Moriscos station* and surroundings.

_Images of the electrification works, with the poles already in place_: 



CARBALOSIELLA said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

River Ulla viaduct, at Catoira.

_Works carry on under the drizzle, too_:



Papos said:


>


----------



## Trenponfe

*León - Monforte de Lemos (- A Coruña) line.*
Ponferrada station. December 2013.


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

River Ulla viaduct, at Catoira.

_Works carry on after the drizzle, too_:



Papos said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line.*
Between *Moriscos* and *Salamanca* stations.

_Images of the electrification works, with the poles already in place_:



Albe®to said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line.*
*Salamanca station*.

_Images of the electrification works, with the poles already in place till the entrance to the station.
To the left, the old line to Zamora, Benavente and Astorga (closed in 1985), to the right, the line to Avila and Madrid_:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


>


----------



## Richard_P

437.001 said:


>


Do I see it correct? Are those masts zinc covered instead of paint?


----------



## Reivajar

^^ Yes, the conventional finishing for catenary poles in Spanish railways (I mean, out of high speed lines) is galvanized iron.

For sure, it won't be that shinny int the future.

The final look would be something similar to this (poles are slightly different):


----------



## 437.001

*Murcia-Lorca-Almendricos-Águilas line.
Lorca-Sutullena station.*

The Lorca-Sutullena station building will be reopen on March 14, the reconstruction works have finished. 
The station was severely damaged in 2011 by the earthquake that shook the city of Lorca. 

_Images of the inside_:



Spider_pig said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.
Vilagarcía de Arousa station.*

_Images of the upgrade works, with two trains crossing at the station_:



asannei said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Bilbao-Donostia/San Sebastian line.
San Antonio (Etxebarri) new station.*

This is the start of a new underground Euskotren line that will run under Bilbao till Matiko station.
In the end it will be connected at Sondika to the line Bilbao-Sondika-Lezama line (which will stop being isolated) and it will take over the services to Bermeo, Eibar and Durango, which will quit Atxuri station, leaving the section Atxuri-San Antonio (Etxebarri) for the Bilbao tramway. 



BPT said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Seville-Cadiz line.
Cadiz station.*

_A class 599 DMU on an Intercity Cadiz-Seville Santa Justa. It´s not common to see diesel trains in Cadiz_:



UT596001 said:


> Un 599 para un _Intercity_ Cádiz-Sevilla... teniendo en cuenta que es en carnavales, vete a saber si es la _chirigota_ particular de RENFE...
> 
> 
> "Chirigotas" ferroviàries... por ut5960018, en Flickr


----------



## Transira

*2012-2013*

Filmed in Catalunya and Andalucia. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsAIe5zvNZY


----------



## el palmesano

88437969

88437853

88437744

88437638


----------



## el palmesano

Estacion de Madrid Puerta de Atocha

88432907

Estación de Madrid Chamartín

81697286

Estación de Barcelona Sants

88433034


----------



## el palmesano

Estación de Sevilla Santa Justa

88434214

Estación de Zaragoza Delicias

88434925


----------



## el palmesano

Estación de Valencia Nord

88438161

Estación de Valencia Joaquín Sorolla

88434342


----------



## el palmesano

Estación de Vialia Málaga María Zambrano

88433723

Estación de Toledo

88434283

Estación de Lleida Pirineus

88433569


----------



## el palmesano

Estación de Girona

88433431


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> *You mean in kms?* If you mean that, I´ll have to check some data.
> If you mean which lines, it´s on the map (which has some grave mistakes btw, like the location of Vitoria instead of Logroño and the absence of the Orejo-Liérganes branch line).


Yes, I meant in km. I wondered how many km of high speed rail are in Spain at the moment. Except for that small stretch in Galicia it's pretty much the same thing as how much in standard gauge.


----------



## Trenponfe

*León - Monforte de Lemos (- A Coruña) line*.
O Barco de Valdeorras and A Rúa-Petín stations. December 2013.




Ponferrada station. Container train from A Coruña to León with Renfe Class 333.3. December 2013.


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

River Ulla viaduct, in *Catoira*:



Papos said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line.
Campillo station.*

Electrification works:



elburgo said:


>


----------



## 437.001

Connection between the *Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line* and the *Madrid-Galicia HSL* between *Medina del Campo-AV (under construction)* station and *Campillo* station.



elburgo said:


> (_translation into English: *437:001*_)
> 
> The platform leaving the HSL from Medina del Campo-AV (on te HSL), looking towards Salamanca:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking towards Medina del Campo-AV. On the left we can see the HSL to Zamora and Ourense, diverging (and with some electrification poles already in place):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here works haven´t started yet. On the left, the Medina del Campo-Salamanca classic line, looking towards Medina:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here the works are already visible. In hindsight, the future junction with the classic line to Salamanca:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The classic line and from the left converges the platform of the future link to the HSL, seen as looking towards Salamanca:


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Yes, I meant in km. I wondered how many km of high speed rail are in Spain at the moment. Except for that small stretch in Galicia it's pretty much the same thing as how much in standard gauge.


*zoltan* wave has the answer, I translate it:



zoltan said:


> Adif network by July 1, 2013:
> 
> Rail network run by Adif: 15,333 km.
> 
> • Pure standard gauge (1,435 mm) High Speed Rail network: 2,322 km
> • Iberian gauge (1,668 mm) High Speed Rail network: 84 km
> • Pure Iberian gauge (1,668 mm) classic rail network: 11,596 km
> • Dual gauge (1,668 mm & 1,435 mm) rail network (combination of Iberian and standard gauges, 3rd rail): 119 km
> • Metric narrow gauge (1,000 mm) rail network: 1,211 km


----------



## Sunfuns

Fantastic! Those 119 km of dual gauge are from Zaragoza to Huesca, right?


----------



## alserrod

No.

Zaragoza-Tardienta has separated standard and classic gauges (two independent tracks).

It is only Tardienta-Huesca (thus 21 km) where it is mixed.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Fantastic! Those 119 km of dual gauge are from Zaragoza to Huesca, right?


Nope.

There is dual gauge in Tardienta-Huesca, El Papiol-Rubí-Cerdanyola Universitat-Mollet (junction with HSL), and Girona Mercaderies-Vilamalla-Figueres Vilafant. 

That´s all, for now.


----------



## 437.001

*Palma-Inca line.
Can Foradí/Son Cladera station (under construction).*

_Images and renders of this new station under construction in Majorca_:



> http://www.diariodemallorca.es/palma/2014/03/13/nueva-pasarela-can-foradi-estara/917505.html





el palmesano said:


>





el palmesano said:


> http://www.garauingenieros.es/referencias/carreteras-y-ferrocarriles/


----------



## 437.001

*Murcia-Lorca-Almendricos-Águilas line.
Lorca-Sutullena station.*

Two images, one shortly after the 2011 earthquake, and a recent one, with the station building already reconstructed: 



ayala79 said:


> Image from Vía Libre
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image from Guía Viajera de Lorca www.guiaviajera.info


----------



## 437.001

*Murcia-Lorca-Almendricos-Águilas line.
Lorca-Sutullena station.*

Two more images, this time of the inside, the first one taken before the 2011 earthquake, the second after the reconstruction:



Spider_pig said:


>


----------



## Sunfuns

It was nicer before.


----------



## Reivajar

Sunfuns said:


> It was nicer before.


You mean inside?


----------



## Sunfuns

Yes, it was a more pleasant colour scheme. The new design a bit too basic for my taste...


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Yes, it was a more pleasant colour scheme. The new design a bit too basic for my taste...


The new inside was still empty when the pic was taken.
And the new ceiling is higher, this is why it looks emptier.


----------



## Sunfuns

You might be right… 

Looking at those pictures something else came into my mind. There are actual ticket sales windows in this midsize location. In Switzerland it has to be a sizeable town for it, otherwise it's just ticket machines. How is it in Spain?


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> You might be right…
> 
> Looking at those pictures something else came into my mind. There are actual ticket sales windows in this midsize location. In Switzerland it has to be a sizeable town for it, otherwise it's just ticket machines. How is it in Spain?


What do you understand for "sizeable town"?


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> What do you understand for "sizeable town"?


Not sure what is the limit, >10,000 inhabitants perhaps? I go for work often to a place which has about 4,000 people living there (4 tracks, ca 3 trains per hour per direction) and there are no ticket windows there anymore.


----------



## kbbcn

Sunfuns said:


> Not sure what is the limit, >10,000 inhabitants perhaps? I go for work often to a place which has about 4,000 people living there (4 tracks, ca 3 trains per hour per direction) and there are no ticket windows there anymore.


Lorca has 92.718 inhabitants (according to their website. Sizeable enough? 
(OK, it's not the only train station there, but still...)


----------



## Reivajar

Lorca is part of the commuter train network of Murcia and Alicante. It means around 20 commuter trains per day.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Not sure what is the limit, >10,000 inhabitants perhaps? I go for work often to a place which has about 4,000 people living there (4 tracks, ca 3 trains per hour per direction) and there are no ticket windows there anymore.


It may depend on the number of passengers too. One town A, bigger than another town B, may have less passengers than B for a number of reasons.
In the Tarragona district, Vilaseca (pop 22,000), which is almost twice as big as Cunit in population, doesn´t even have a ticket machine, so you have to buy the tickets to the controller, while Cunit (pop 12,000) has ticket machine and at certain hours an open ticket office too (and more trains calling at the station too, but the A area isn´t more or less populated than the B area). 



kbbcn said:


> Lorca has 92.718 inhabitants (according to their website. Sizeable enough?
> (OK, it's not the only train station there, but still...)


The other train station, Lorca-San Diego, is nowadays smaller, and if I remember correctly, it doesn´t currently have an open ticket office.
In the future though, it´s supposed to be expanded heavily and turned into the HS Lorca main station.



Reivajar said:


> Lorca is part of the commuter train network of Murcia and Alicante. It means around 20 commuter trains per day.


Plus the Talgo for Barcelona, and on weekends the IC for Madrid.


----------



## alserrod

kbbcn said:


> Lorca has 92.718 inhabitants (according to their website. Sizeable enough?
> (OK, it's not the only train station there, but still...)


As said, commuter, this is, get up and down and buying tickets. There are smaller stations with more traffic indeed


----------



## Trenponfe

*León - Monforte de Lemos (- A Coruña) line*
Ponferrada station.
Renfe class 252 with TrenHotel Galicia (A Coruña/Vigo - Barcelona) and 10 minutes later, Renfe class 252 with an especial TrenHotel for Christmas, TrenHotel Rosalía de Castro (A Coruña - Ourense - Monforte de Lemos - Barcelona) non-stop between Astorga and Logroño.


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.*

River Ulla viaduct, in *Catoira* (under construction):



Papos said:


>


----------



## JumpUp

Which are the largest (by population) cities in Spain NOT connected to (long distance) - railway?

A city that you can only reach by bus


----------



## dirdam

^^ Marbella (142.018) and Torrevieja (105.205).


----------



## Reivajar

Out of the Spanish islands, the largest cities not connected to railways are (I don't include those which got commuter train station, even if they are not long distance railways):

Marbella (province of Malaga): 142.018 
Torrevieja (province of Alicante): 105.205
Roquetas de Mar (province of Almería): 87.868
Mijas (province of Málaga): 85.600
El Ejido (province of Almería): 82.983
Chiclana de la Frontera (province of Cádiz): 82.212
Vélez-Málaga (province of Málaga): 76.911
Alcalá de Guadaira (province of Seville): 73.876
Molina de Segura (province of Murcia): 68.450
Estepona (province of Málaga): 67.986
Sanlúcar de Barrameda (province of Cádiz): 67.301
La Línea de la Concepción (province of Cádiz): 62.697
Motril (province of Granada): 61.194


----------



## alserrod

JumpUp said:


> Which are the largest (by population) cities in Spain NOT connected to (long distance) - railway?
> 
> A city that you can only reach by bus




Apart of it we could reach for a list of not-existing lines. This is, big or medium cities, not far and with a barely existing train service or nothing at all.


----------



## Reivajar

alserrod said:


> Apart of it we could reach for a list of not-existing lines. This is, big or medium cities, not far and with a barely existing train service or nothing at all.


You mean, cities with railway but with a really bad train service?


----------



## alserrod

Reivajar said:


> You mean, cities with railway but with a really bad train service?


Yes.

Not big but for instance Zamora-Salamanca

or Aranda de Duero-elsewhere

Burgos-Santander

Murcia-anywhere in Andalucia

and Valencia-Zaragoza (and Valencia-Barcelona even if classic line isn't as bad as other)


----------



## dirdam

alserrod said:


> (and Valencia-Barcelona even if classic line isn't as bad as other)


You must be joking.


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## Reivajar

Among the worst served cities would be for sure the two smallest provincial capitals: Teruel and Soria. But the situation in Almería is worst by distance and by lack of investment (and considering the economical activity and population around Almeria, around 250.000 inhabitants in the urban area). In the near future it will become the worst served city by railways.

That's true that Extremadura has not good rail links, but they are being currently improved. In other sense, the line Miranda de Ebro-Bilbao was just completely out-of-date, a really old fashioned design for the traditionally considered third economic and urban area of Spain. Galicia hasn't either good rail links with the central plateau, but they are being improved too as the rail access to Bilbao. So it is ok.

The Northern Corridor along the Bay of Biscay coast is really scenic but not fast for long distance trips. So not that good either.

Algeciras line is not optimal rail link either, even for freight trains. It would be another important line to be improved soon.

In another level of bad service (because they not that primary), would be the Pyrenees lines: Huesca-Canfranc (and the Somport tunnel link to Pau in France), and the Barcelona-Vic-La Tor de Querol line.


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## Suburbanist

Had there ever be some old rail lines on Spanish islands?


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## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> Had there ever be some old rail lines on Spanish islands?


In Tenerife you have a modern tramway network covering Santa Cruz de Tenerife and San Sebastián de La Laguna. Length: 15,1 km









In Majorca you have two different networks (even if they have some common stations):

SFM network, which includes as well the Palma Metro network (SFM total length: 85 km)









The old and historic Ferrocarril de Sóller (which includes a railway line, 27,3 km; and a tramway line, 4,9 km).


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> Among the worst served cities would be for sure the two smallest provincial capitals: Teruel and Soria. But the situation in Almería is worst by distance and by lack of investment (and considering the economical activity and population around Almeria, around 250.000 inhabitants in the urban area). In the near future it will become the worst served city by railways.
> 
> That's true that Extremadura has not good rail links, but they are being currently improved. In other sense, the line Miranda de Ebro-Bilbao was just completely out-of-date, a really old fashioned design for the traditionally considered third economic and urban area of Spain. Galicia hasn't either good rail links with the central plateau, but they are being improved too as the rail access to Bilbao. So it is ok.
> 
> The Northern Corridor along the Bay of Biscay coast is really scenic but not fast for long distance trips. So not that good either.
> 
> Algeciras line is not optimal rail link either, even for freight trains. It would be another important line to be improved soon.


To all this, I´d add the extension of the long-awaited and much-begged Costa del Sol line from Fuengirola to Algeciras. It is badly needed.

Same goes for the Costa Blanca, there´s only a narrow-gauge tram-train line, which is ok for next-door service, but clearly fails to give it a good rail service, even suburban service (it takes forever from Alicante to Benidorm on the tram-train). 



Reivajar said:


> In another level of bad service (because they not that primary), would be the Pyrenees lines: Huesca-Canfranc (and the Somport tunnel link to Pau in France), and the Barcelona-Vic-*La Tor de Querol* line.


Latour-de-Carol (France). Otherwise readers could be lost in translation. 
The line is not that bad (it´s the Pyrenees, that´s mountainous), it´s been recently upgraded a few years ago, and the area on the line where more capacity is needed is in suburban Barcelona (section between Montcada-Bifurcació and La Garriga). But the service to Latour-de-Carol is alright.


----------



## gincan

Reivajar said:


> Barcelona-Vic-La Tor de Querol line.


This line is one of the best if not the best served marginal train line in Spain. It is just extremely slow but it has lots of passengers and trains.


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## Reivajar

For me the problem of the Barcelona - Latour-de-Carol line is precisely the low speed. It is not that bad... but higher speed would be an important advantage.


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## 437.001

gincan said:


> This line is one of the best if not the best served marginal train line in Spain. It is just extremely slow but it has lots of passengers and trains.





Reivajar said:


> For me the problem of the Barcelona - Latour-de-Carol line is precisely the low speed. It is not that bad... but higher speed would be an important advantage.


It´s not the speed (it´s a mountainous line, don´t expect miracles).
It´s the capacity.

Nowadays, trains from Barcelona to Latour-de-Carol are commuter trains between Barcelona and Vic, so they call at many stations where they probably shouldn´t. But they do it because the line is entirely in single track, so they have to stop for the crossings with other trains, so they accept passengers.

Once they double-track the line between Montcada Bifurcació and La Garriga, they´ll be able to increase speed just by avoiding the crossings.


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## 437.001

*vintage images!!!*

Message edited, source unclear.


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## Suburbanist

Do they have some plans to convert the old Madrid-Brugos railway (via Aranda de Duero) into a cycling path or something?


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## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> Do they have some plans to convert the old Madrid-Brugos railway (via Aranda de Duero) into a cycling path or something?


They gonna reopen it for freight trains from Aranda de Duero (the city has a huge industrial area) to Burgos, where the line links with the rest of the network.

In the Southern tip of the line, Madrid commuter train network (Cercanías) is going to be enlarged from Colmenar Viejo to Soto del Real refurbishing the existing line. Futhermore a touristic train is planned to be operated from Madrid to Somosierra (Northern corner of the Madrid region). 

From Somosierra to Aranda de Duero will keep unused.


----------



## Trenponfe

*León - Monforte de Lemos (- A Coruña) line.*
Ponferrada station. January 2014.
Renfe class 251 with a container train from Vigo to León.


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## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> Do they have some plans to convert the old Madrid-Burgos railway (via Aranda de Duero) into a cycling path or something?


Er... the line is technically 'open'. But no trains run regularly between Colmenar Viejo and Burgos, and they can´t because there was a landslide inside the Somosierra tunnel (with a draisine imprisoned inside the landslide), and after that happened, there were people who stole bits of rail and a lot of the cables of the signalling system.



Reivajar said:


> They´re going to reopen it for freight trains from Aranda de Duero (the city has a huge industrial area) to Burgos, where the line links with the rest of the network.


I´m not all too confident in this.



Reivajar said:


> In the Southern tip of the line, Madrid commuter train network (Cercanías) is going to be enlarged from Colmenar Viejo to Soto del Real refurbishing the existing line. Futhermore a touristic train is planned to be operated from Madrid to Somosierra (Northern corner of the Madrid region).


Robregordo-Somosierra, not Somosierra.

The commuter service (wchich would require electrification and maybe also doubletracking) could be extended further north from Colmenar Viejo, but the project is currently on hold due to budgetary reasons.
The first planned phase was Colmenar Viejo-Soto del Real, but there was the intention of taking it further north on a second phase (to Miraflores de la Sierra, but its then mayor didn´t want to -the next will maybe want to).
Further extensions to the north aren´t to be discarded in the more distant future, depending on the evolution of the population in Madrid.



Reivajar said:


> From Somosierra to Aranda de Duero will keep unused.


For the time being, yes. And the prospects aren´t good in the slightest, it could actually be closed.


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## 437.001

The *new Valladolid Renfe workshop* (still under construction) and the *Valladolid avoiding line* (for freight, under construction too -will take longer to finish than the workshop).



jl5 said:


>


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## Suburbanist

^^ By "avoiding line" I think you mean _bypass_


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## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ By "avoiding line" I think you mean _bypass_


Of course. Both terms are used.


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## arctic_carlos

If I'm not mistaken, when Valladolid bypass opens, Valladolid will be the fifth big Spanish city with a bypass line for freight, after Madrid, Barcelona, Sevilla and Zaragoza. 

The case of Valencia is a little bit different: as the main station of the city (Valencia Nord) is in _cul-de-sac_, freight trains just use connections between lines in the outskirts of the city to avoid the main station, but there is no purposely built bypass line.


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## 437.001

^^
The problem in Valencia is exactly the opposite than in the other cities you mention, it´s the passenger rail, the one which is in need of a through line.

Bilbao would also be another case for an outer freight by-pass, but in Bilbao there´s a plan to build one, although that particular one will be very expensive.

Another city would also benefit in the future of such an infrastructure, but only if the freight developed in a way that meant a dramatic increase of the number of trains (which is not the case now): Murcia.


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## 437.001

*News!!*

A new section of the *upgrade of the Seville-Cadiz classic line* was open yesterday.
It comprises the double-tracking of 32 km between Las Cabezas de San Juan and Aeropuerto de Jerez (terminus of the Cadiz Cercanias commuter rail service).

In the image we can see a class 130 Alvia train rushing through *Aeropuerto de Jerez station* (formerly known as 'La Parra'), on its way to Cadiz:



> Source: Diario de Jerez (in Spanish).


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## Sunfuns

What is still left to be completed on this project?


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> What is still left to be completed on this project?


The second track of the new underground Puerto Real station (by the beginning of April, one week or two), and then the section between Las Cabezas de San Juan and Utrera, which will be ready by the end of the year if all goes well, I guess.


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## alserrod

arctic_carlos said:


> If I'm not mistaken, when Valladolid bypass opens, Valladolid will be the fifth big Spanish city with a bypass line for freight, after Madrid, Barcelona, Sevilla and Zaragoza.
> 
> The case of Valencia is a little bit different: as the main station of the city (Valencia Nord) is in _cul-de-sac_, freight trains just use connections between lines in the outskirts of the city to avoid the main station, but there is no purposely built bypass line.


You're right but think that Spanish citizens live mainly in the coast and there are many terminus stations. For instance... there is no freight by-pass in Malaga or so..., either in Gijon.

As solutions for smaller cities you can consider
Huesca
https://www.google.es/maps/place/Hu...m2!3m1!1s0xd584449d1d84db5:0x2c8dfd864aa74791

and Leon
https://www.google.es/maps/place/Le...m2!3m1!1s0xd379a9a0d5e1bd9:0x7d849ffad4f1eef3


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Granollers Centre-Maçanet Massanes-Girona-Portbou/Cerbère classic line.
Mollet-Sant Fost station.*

_Pics and videos of two freight trains pulled by a class 253_:



carlesnuc said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Aranda de Duero-Burgos line.
Aranda de Duero-Montecillo station.*

The section between Aranda de Duero-Montecillo and Burgos will reopen for freight in the beginning of 2015, it seems. 
We´ll see wether that becomes a reality or not. :shifty:



> Source: arandaaldia.com (in Spanish)


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line.
Vigo-Urzáiz station (under reconstruction).*



zoltan said:


>


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.

River Ulla viaduct, in *Catoira*:



SC.sidon said:


>


----------



## Sunfuns

A little bit off-topic, hope no one minds…

I just realised that I have a long weekend free from work in late June for which I had no plans. I was looking where I could fly without spending unjustifiably large amounts of money for only 3-4 days and one option I found was a flight to Santiago. It would be my first time in Northern Spain. Do I have a decent chance of having a good whether (<30 C would be great)? If there is time for one medium length train trip to another town within Galicia, which one would you suggest?


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> A little bit off-topic, hope no one minds…
> 
> I just realised that I have a long weekend free from work in late June for which I had no plans. I was looking where I could fly without spending unjustifiably large amounts of money for only 3-4 days and one option I found was a flight to Santiago. It would be my first time in Northern Spain. Do I have a decent chance of having a good whether (<30 C would be great)?


If by _'good weather'_ you mean _'sunny'_, er... you might as well choose York or Liverpool: the umbrella is compulsory for any trip to Santiago. :lol:

The temperatures are usually warmer than in Britain by June though, but not always (and albeit sometimes they can be much warmer than expected, it´s not that usual), and food is excellent (best seafood in Europe, and btw, do not miss the white wines there if you like them, they´re not that different from the German/Alsatian ones ).

Santiago is, without a doubt, one of the most beautiful Spanish cities.



Sunfuns said:


> If there is time for one medium length train trip to another town within Galicia, which one would you suggest?


A good day trip could be a return ticket from Santiago to Pontevedra by train (they´re frequent, and you´d run under THE viaduct under construction (do I need to tell you which?) when you pass by Catoira and the works of the upgrade of the line in general (and if you do, pictures are welcome ).

Pontevedra is another very beautiful city, and rather different from Santiago (but much less touristic).
In my opinion, Santiago and Pontevedra are much more beautiful than Vigo or A Coruña.

Have a nice trip if you choose it (and if you don´t, too). 

PS: if you do any day trip by train (in particular if you go to Pontevedra, A Coruña or Vigo), do book your ticket days before, trains could be full.

PSS: a really fantastic day trip by train, if you have the time to spare and the timetables are alright for you, could be Santiago-Ourense (via the HSL)>Ourense-Vigo via the classic line through Ribadavia and Porriño)>Vigo-Santiago (via Pontevedra).
The section Ourense-Vigo is just so, so beautiful, and it runs along river Minho and the Portuguese border (and I´d sit on the left).
That one falls more into the category of strictly rail trips, I don´t think you´d have much time to visit things in one day if you chose this route.


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## Sunfuns

Thanks for a solid information. 

I'll look around for a day or two what else is available, but for now it looks very attractive! I think I'd prefer spending July in England over doing the same in Souther Spain. Way too hot for a guy like me who grew up with +30 C happening maybe 3-5 days a year…. 

P.S. Do you think buying train tickets 2-3 weeks in advance would be enough?


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.
River Ulla viaduct and surroundings, at *Catoira*.



Papos said:


>





Papos said:


>





Papos said:


>


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## 437.001

*Palencia-Santander line*.
Between Amusco and Palencia stations, including images of *Amusco station*, *El Carrión halt* and *Monzón de Campos station*.

Images of the upgrade, consisting of the renovation of tracks and OHLE (catenary and poles).

(translated from Spanish)



pachelo said:


> Today I´ve been surprised, I was near *Amusco* and I´ve been to its station, and I´ve found out this.
> 
> Looking towards Piña de Campos station (that is, towards Santander), I´ve seen the new poles already standing.
> I´ve been happy, since the line is so much in need of an upgrade:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Detail with more poles, waiting to be put in their place:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> Zooming, the old poles next to the new ones, the bridge you see in hindsight is the motorway Palencia-Santander:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I turned 180º, looking towards the south and Monzón de Campos (that is, looking towards Palencia), and we no longer see any new poles standing, but if you look twice between two old poles, you can tell the bases for the new poles:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I continued towards the north, but north of the motorway bridge you no longer see any new poles nor any sign of works.
> So I went south, and I stopped at *El Carrión halt*, which serves the town of Monzón de Campos, and here the bases for the new poles are already in place, both looking towards the north (to Amusco and Santander)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and also looking towards the south (to Monzón de Campos station and Palencia), with the poles wainting to be installed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A detail of just how old and rusty the poles are, and that´s even if we are at Palencia, an area with a rather dry climate. The electrification of the section between Palencia and Alar del Rey was finished in 1965, the section between Alar del Rey and Reinosa in 1955, and the section between Reinosa and Santander in 1954. The rest of the poles down the line till Santander were in such state until the upgrade started progressively a few years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At *Monzón de Campos station* works haven´t started yet.
> But it was 20:10, so I saw the Alvia bound for Santander passing by with a class 130:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I kept on going towards Palencia, and I stopped at a barrierless level crossing next to Husillos, a small village located 9 km north of Palencia, and yes, here are also the bases for the new poles.
> Looking towards Monzón de Campos and Santander:
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking towards Palencia:
> 
> 
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> 
> Nothing´s been done between somewhere south of Husillos and Palencia:
> 
> Greetings.


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## 437.001

437.001 said:


> Indeed. Talk about it, I´m back in a few minutes with an update on those eternal works (nearly 20 bleeding years and they´re not finished yet... mind you, the Madrid-Barcelona HSL started works later and was finished much before).
> We´ve learnt to be patient, here... :lol:


Well, here´s a small explanation of how things are in the section between Camp de Tarragona and Vandellos.

(all pictures by *Alvarop_86*, some bits of the original text in Spanish that follows have been kept, but all of it has been translated, and most of it has been quite reworked and expanded by me) 

================================================

*Tarragona-Reus classic line + Camp de Tarragona-Vandellos new line + Vilaseca chord (between both lines)*




Alvarop_86 said:


> First I went to the place where the new point will be installed, at the start of the chord on the Vilaseca side, we´re on the Tarragona-Reus classic line, between Vilaseca and Reus stations.
> 
> Top right, the start of the chord towards the new line to Vandellos (and further away to Valencia). We can see the sleepers already in place.
> This chord is supposed to be only in standard gauge.
> 
> Bottom left, to Tarragona and Barcelona (and further away to Le Perthus, France).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aside from the classic rectangular sleepers for points, of different sizes, there also is a pile of polyvalent sleepers (for either standard OR Iberian gauge, but not both, which will exist beyond this point towards the south, while between this point and Tarragona, and on to Barcelona, it will be dual gauge on the classic line).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Following the road towards the new line (the road actually goes on towards La Plana and Reus, which is not far), it looks like it´s been recently paved, maybe to make the transit of lorries and machinery going to the works of new line easier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once arrived to the bridge over the new line, we look towards Camp de Tarragona station (and Barcelona). Somewhere beyond this point, there will be a transition between 3 kV and 25 kV, since on from this point starts the part of the new line which can be considered a HSL, albeit speeds won´t be very high, since Camp de Tarragona station is not all too far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I moved further south along the new line, but looking again towards Camp de Tarragona (and Barcelona). We can tell that the trench has not been completely excavated yet!! This is the neverending story, there is a rural road and an aqueduct that runs beneath it, and though new overpasses have been finished, the trench doesn´t get finished, who knows why.
> Besdides, I am now right at the point where the chord coming from the Tarragona-Reus line (out of focus to the right of the pic) meets the new line.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zooming from the same spot. In the first place we see the yet-unifinished trench, and beyond it an overbridge for a rural road and the Tarragona-Reus classic line, which cuts in a 90º angle. In hindsight we can tell some chimneys, they´re some 10 km away, and a few 3 km further past the chimneys lies Camp de Tarragona station.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I´m at the top of the rural road that goes through the unfinished trench, looking towards Camp de Tarragona and Barcelona, in the first place the overpass for a rural road and the Tarragona-Reus classic line (Tarragona to the right, Reus to the left).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same spot, looking towards the south (Vandellos and Valencia). In the first place we see the overpass from which I took other pictures, and right after it converges from the left (Vilaseca and Tarragona) the chord from the Tarragona-Reus classic line, with sleepers in place. Beyond this point and till the start of the Cambrils viaduct, the sleepers are also in place, for double track. All of what we see in this image is supposed to be in standard gauge, but 3 kV. We can also note that the gap between the junction and right behind us is rather less advanced that the rest of the area, even though if it´s a very short sector and theoretically nothing stops the works from carrying on...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Following again towards Vilaseca, I finally get to the chord, which will be in standard gauge, OHLE at 3 kV DC and single track. It struck me just how close the rural road is from the new line, it´s "right there in your face".
> Trains won´t run fast here, btw, but it will surely be rather impressive to see them from so close.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The chord, looking towards Vilaseca and Tarragona, with the Tarragona-Reus classic line in hindsight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We can tell that the sleepers are polyvalent (that is, not for dual gauge, only standard OR Iberian gauge). We can clearly tell that they´re positioned in Iberian gauge. We´re not sure wether it´s provisory, just for the Works, or wether it will really be a transitional period in Iberian gauge before connecting it to the HSL towards Camp de Tarragona.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Detail of the sleepers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Detail of the sleepers 2nd part D):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, we get to the other side of the point (the first pic was taken from across the classic line). To the right, to Tarragona and Barcelona in dual gauge and 3 kV DC, to the left, to Reus and beyond, in Iberian gauge and 3 kV DC too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A much more clearer view of the point.
> We can tell the city of Reus in hindsight, at the foot of the mountains, with the classic line going there. To the left diverges the new chord towards the new line for Vandellos and Valencia, in single track, standard gauge, and 3 kV DC:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Detail of the sleepers for the new point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Detail of the rails of the new point:
> 
> 
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> 
> On the rails we can tell some inscriptions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Detail of the core of the new point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new point looks not provisory at all:



==========================================

*Tarragona-Reus + Tarragona-Salou-Vandellos-Valencia + Tarragona-Barcelona classic lines.
Tarragona station.*

An image of the sleepers at platform 2 of Tarragona station. 
Alvarop_86 says that he saw these white marks every x metres. Works for the dual gauge here are really about to start, there already is a government sign announcing them (but not the date of start of the works!!) 



Alvarop_86 said:


>


----------



## Sunfuns

What is "the point" in this context?


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> What is "the point" in this context?


A railway point, in English, is the device to change from one track to another:



In American English I think it´s called a railroad switch.


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## Sunfuns

Oh, right. I've only heard American version before...


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## Sunfuns

Will Salamanca-Fuentes de Onoro stretch also be electrified thus allowing Madrid-Lisbon electric service? Perhaps using HS line till Medina del Campo together with electrification would lower the travel time sufficiently that daytime service is feasible.


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## Sunfuns

Another thing since there was the discussion about Spain-Portugal connections. Has the railway between Huelva and Portuguese border been abandoned or never existed?


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Will Salamanca-Fuentes de Onoro stretch also be electrified thus allowing Madrid-Lisbon electric service? Perhaps using HS line till Medina del Campo together with electrification would lower the travel time sufficiently that daytime service is feasible.


The project is on its way, only that the first phase is just between Medina del Campo and Salamanca. 
Soon after, the section between Salamanca and Vilar Formoso will be electrified. 
Or so we hope, the project is started, it just got a bit of delay with some problems in the Environmental Declaration of the Ciudad Rodrigo new substation to feed the line.



Sunfuns said:


> Another thing since there was the discussion about Spain-Portugal connections. Has the railway between Huelva and Portuguese border been abandoned or never existed?


The Gibraleón-Ayamonte line was closed in 1987.
It went till the border, but it did never cross the border, there never was any railway bridge over river Guadiana.
Between Huelva and Gibraleón it´s still open, since that´s part of the Zafra-Huelva line (that I highly recommend for its landscape beauty).


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.
River Ulla viaduct, at *Catoira*.



Eloy_tp said:


> Plus a video:


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## ramakrishna1984

A joint-venture (JV) comprising Thales and Siemens Rail Automation has secured a *€54m contract from Spanish railway infrastructure manager* ADIF to supply the European railways traffic management system (ERTMS) automatic train protection for the Pajares Diversion in Spain.


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## carlesnuc

*L'Hospitalet de Llobregat(Bellvitge)-Barcelona-01-05-2014*
*Line Madrid Chamartin-Barcelona Est.de França*


carlesnuc said:


> *Bellvitge 1-05-2014*


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## Suburbanist

^^ Pelase, don't put more than 10 videos in one single post 

It makes it horrible to read the forum on a tablet.


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.
River Ulla viaduct, at *Catoira*.



SC.sidon said:


>


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## Suburbanist

Why is this junction cut-off?


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## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> Why is this junction cut-off?


Yes the original Castillejo-Añover - Toledo branch was the line serving Toledo station until the construction of the high speed branch from the Madrid-Seville HSL. This new high speed link was built over the former line, but because of the break of gauge, the classic line from Algodor was cut there and there isn't anymore Iberian gauge tracks getting to Toledo. It was quite controversial somehow, as Toledo lost its connection to the commuter trains network of Madrid, and it was replaced by the current regional high speed service (Avant), but after all, the number of passengers who commute everyday by train between Madrid and Toledo has grown. 










Maybe, in the future, thanks to the unification of gauges in Spanish railways, this connection will be rebuilt.


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## Sunfuns

So basically the only train service from Toledo now is non-stop to Madrid Atocha. Seems to be too expensive for everyday commuting, though. Is it possible to buy a monthly or yearly pass for these trains thus saving some money?


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## Suburbanist

Reivajar said:


> Maybe, in the future, thanks to the unification of gauges in Spanish railways, this connection will be rebuilt.


When will the junction access Toledo <=> Sevilla be completed?


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## Reivajar

Sunfuns said:


> So basically the only train service from Toledo now is non-stop to Madrid Atocha. Seems to be too expensive for everyday commuting, though. Is it possible to buy a monthly or yearly pass for these trains thus saving some money?


Yes. Recently, some new direct trains from other Spanish cities are calling in Toledo for serving the events for El Greco 4th Centenary, but the call as well at Madrid-Atocha, but basically what you have now are non-stop trains between Madrid and Toledo. Anyway, before, the trains as well were Madrid-Toledo services, via Aranjuez, so the service was not that different, but that's true that it has a better integration for reaching stations in Southern Madrid taking another commuter train in Aranjuez (line C3).

There are passes which reduce a lot the fare. There is an important saving of time as well (1h before, 30 min now). Anyway, even if I consider it is much more expensive, apparently it is pretty popular as the number of commuters has grown a lot: from 300.000 in 2003 with the conventional trains to the current 1.300.000 passengers per year who use the Avant services, so it is not that bad.

Here you have more figures and information about the former regional services and the current high speed regional trains: http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/LAV_y_Avant_Madrid_-_Toledo (in Spanish though)


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## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> When will the junction access Toledo <=> Sevilla be completed?


Nobody knows... I think it was mostly planned thinking in regional services between Toledo, Ciudad Real and Puertollano (all of those cities belong to the same autonomous community, Castille-La Mancha), or even for programming continous regional services Madrid-Toledo-Ciudad Real-Puertollano, but I am not sure it was that useful. The demand and needs in Madrid-Toledo trains, are completely different than in Madrid-Ciudad Real-Puertollano trains, and as well different from the hypothetical Toledo-Ciudad Real-Puertollano. It makes that integrating all those services could be really complicated.


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> When will the junction access Toledo <=> Sevilla be completed?


In fact, a new station in the La Sagra surroundings would be enough. All Toledo-Madrid would stop there (people could park there and take the train, there are many towns in the area) and you could join to a train to Seville or wherelse. Easier than several Toledo-South trains which require a specific demand


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## Sunfuns

Reivajar said:


> *There are passes which reduce a lot the fare. There is an important saving of time as well (1h before, 30 min now).* Anyway, even if I consider it is much more expensive, apparently it is pretty popular as the number of commuters has grown a lot: from 300.000 in 2003 with the conventional trains to the current 1.300.000 passengers per year who use the Avant services, so it is not that bad.


Not bad at all. Actually these are the kind of improvements what help improve competitiveness of economy, probably more than longer routes. Even though I'm not familiar with local conditions, it's still a fair guess that it's easier to find a decent paying job in Madrid than in Toledo with accommodation prices the other way around.


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## 437.001

*Alicante-Albatera Catral-Murcia line*.
*Section Albatera Catral-Murcia (under upgrade and double-tracking).*

An image of the works at *Orihuela station*, which is being put underground.



> Source: *Diario Información* (in Spanish -_photo by *Tony Sevilla*_-)


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## 437.001

*Alicante-Albatera Catral-Murcia line*.
*Section Albatera Catral-Murcia (under upgrade and double-tracking).*

Pictures of the works between Crevillente and Beniel, taken from the train.



jordiq said:


> Between Callosa de Segura and Orihuela:
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> Beniel station:


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## Sunfuns

Will Alicante-Murcia be an upgrade of the existing line in Iberian gauge instead of a true continuation of HS line from Madrid?


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Will Alicante-Murcia be an upgrade of the existing line in Iberian gauge instead of a true continuation of HS line from Madrid?


A mix of both.

Between Murcia and Crevillente junction, they´ve chosen the Cadiz option, which is to adapt a few sections of the existing line, but mostly built a parallel new line (which will allow for higher speeds) to replace the current one.
The section between El Reguerón junction and Murcia was opened a few years ago. 

Between Crevillente junction and Monforte del Cid junction, it´s a branch of the Madrid-Alicante HSL, so it´s a full HSL, and it will include the new Elche-AV station.

Between Crevillente junction and Alicante, the classic line will remain as it is, although it will be electrified and a new line could be built between Torrellano station and Alicante station to serve the Alicante airport, but that´s for a later phase since it´s not part of the plan to take HSR to Murcia.


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## Sunfuns

Not sure I understood even with a help of google... 

Is the HSL branch to Elche already built and in standard gauge? If so then trains from Madrid to Murcia could bypass Alicante and electrification of Crevillente-Alicante section is needed for direct service between Alicante and Murcia, right? And I assume this newly built section to Murcia is in broad gauge at least for now.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Not sure I understood even with a help of google...
> 
> Is the HSL branch to Elche already built and in standard gauge?


No, it´s under construction, it will go from Monforte del Cid junction on the Madrid-Alicante HSL, till past the future Elche-AV station (which is under construction and will be a parkway station), at El Realengo, aka Crevillente junction, a place between Crevillente and Albatera-Catral stations on the Alicante-Murcia classic line.

Between El Realengo and Alicante (including the two central Elche stations), the line will remain as it is in the first phase, being only electrified, and some time in the future a new line through Alicante airport will be built between Torrellano station (which is located between Elche-Parque and Alicante) and Alicante station.

Then, between El Realengo and Murcia the line is being upgraded and double-tracked, in some places by building a parallel new platform, in some others just by widening the current platform.



Sunfuns said:


> If so then trains from Madrid to Murcia could bypass Alicante and electrification of Crevillente-Alicante section is needed for direct service between Alicante and Murcia, right?


Yes, AVE trains from Madrid to Murcia will by-pass Alicante, while the Alvia/Euromed service to Valencia and Barcelona won´t, while using the HSL between El Realengo and Alicante via the Monforte del Cid junction and reversing at Alicante.

Cercanías Renfe commuter trains will continue to use the current line between Alicante and El Realengo on their way to Murcia.



Sunfuns said:


> And I assume this newly built section to Murcia is in broad gauge at least for now.


For now, yes, but it is planned to change the gauge to standard in all the Alicante-Murcia line, including the parts of the line that won´t be upgraded.


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## 437.001

From here.



Sunfuns said:


> There is a tram-train in Cadiz?
> 
> I found a Spanish wikipedia article, it's a bit outdated but as far as I understood both lines are still under construction. Right?
> 
> P.S. I know it's off-topic, but there is no thread for this yet.





437.001 said:


> ´course it is, but I felt like posting it here, because it has no thread yet, and the thing turned up in the middle of the HSL works.
> 
> The Cadiz tram-train line (there´s only one, not two lines) is under construction, and it will run between La Ardila junction on the Seville-Cadiz line til Chiclana de la Frontera through the streets of San Fernando.





Sunfuns said:


> I read that there is a new bridge under construction from Cadiz to Puerto Real and that there will be a tram line crossing it. Outdated information?


Not exactly, the new bridge is a road bridge, the tram line that was supposed to cross it was just an idea that never got to serious planning.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Avila-Valladolid-Burgos-Irun/hendaye classic line.*

*Las Matas Talgo workshop*, located between Pinar de las Rozas and Las Matas stations:



eme.o.hache said:


>


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.

River Ulla viaduct, in *Catoira*.



Papos said:


>


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## da_scotty

I have a little travel question , when travelling from Barcelona to Figueres is it worth the money to take the Avant service? Because I seem to have three options: Local train, MD, Avant/AVE trains but I'm not sure which has the best price/value/time! Can someone tell me what is the recommended/best way to do! Is there a (foreign) student discount?
Thanks in Advance!


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## Suburbanist

What are the long terms for the railway Monforte-Betanzos after LAV Galicia opens fully?


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## 437.001

da_scotty said:


> I have a little travel question , when travelling from Barcelona to Figueres is it worth the money to take the Avant service? Because I seem to have three options: Local train, MD, Avant/AVE trains but I'm not sure which has the best price/value/time! Can someone tell me what is the recommended/best way to do! Is there a (foreign) student discount?
> Thanks in Advance!


It depends on how much time you have to spend at Figueres.

With the local train (RG1), departures from Sants, Plaça Catalunya, Arc de Triomf or El Clot-Aragó stations in Barcelona, you´ll be in a commuter train calling at every station. It´s long, rather long, but you can enjoy the seaside between Barcelona and Malgrat de Mar (that is, if you have enough time to get a seat, but you could also be forced to stand for a long while in a crowded train, which is quite uncomfortable). Arrival at Figueres centre station.
It´ll take you 2h47min. Keep in mind that these trains don´t run on weekends and public holidays. It will cost you €12, single ticket.

With the MD or regional train (R11) you´ll run a little bit faster through the main route via Sant Celoni, avoiding the seaside, and calling at just a few or many stations, it depends on wether its an MD (faster) or a Regional (slower). Departures from Sants, Passeig de Gracia, or El Clot-Aragó stations in Barcelona. Arrival at Figueres centre station. It will take you somewhere between 1h48min and 2h20min. It will cost you €16 (the MD) or €12 (the Regional), single ticket.

With the Avant, you´ll run inside an AVE or a TGV, and it will take you between 53 and 55 minutes. You´ll pay more (€20.60 for an Avant-priced seat, €42.90 for a Turista-priced AVE seat, and €60.30 for a Preferente-priced AVE seat, in all cases a single ticket), and you´ll have to book. Departures only from Sants station in Barcelona, arrival at Figueres-Vilafant station (a bit less central than the other station at Figueres).

More info at www.renfe.com (click on the _Viajeros_ section)



Suburbanist said:


> What are the long terms for the railway Monforte-Betanzos after LAV Galicia opens fully?


It will continue to run normally. 
The Alvia Madrid-Lugo-Ferrol runs on it between Monforte and Betanzos-Infesta. 
And the Alvia Madrid-Corunna-Ferrol runs on it too, between Corunna and Betanzos-Infesta.


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## 437.001

*Camp de Tarragona-Vilaseca-Vandellòs new line (link between Madrid-Barcelona HSL and Tarragona-Valencia classic line).*
Section Vilaseca-Vandellòs.

Image taken near Mont-roig del Camp.



> Photo: Pere Ferré
> 
> Source: *Diari de Tarragona*


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## da_scotty

437.001 said:


> It depends on how much time you have to spend at Figueres.
> 
> With the local train (RG1), departures from Sants, Plaça Catalunya, Arc de Triomf or El Clot-Aragó stations in Barcelona, you´ll be in a commuter train calling at every station. It´s long, rather long, but you can enjoy the seaside between Barcelona and Malgrat de Mar (that is, if you have enough time to get a seat, but you could also be forced to stand for a long while in a crowded train, which is quite uncomfortable). Arrival at Figueres centre station.
> It´ll take you 2h47min. Keep in mind that these trains don´t run on weekends and public holidays. It will cost you €12, single ticket.
> 
> With the MD or regional train (R11) you´ll run a little bit faster through the main route via Sant Celoni, avoiding the seaside, and calling at just a few or many stations, it depends on wether its an MD (faster) or a Regional (slower). Departures from Sants, Passeig de Gracia, or El Clot-Aragó stations in Barcelona. Arrival at Figueres centre station. It will take you somewhere between 1h48min and 2h20min. It will cost you €16 (the MD) or €12 (the Regional), single ticket.
> 
> With the Avant, you´ll run inside an AVE or a TGV, and it will take you between 53 and 55 minutes. You´ll pay more (€20.60 for an Avant-priced seat, €42.90 for a Turista-priced AVE seat, and €60.30 for a Preferente-priced AVE seat, in all cases a single ticket), and you´ll have to book. Departures only from Sants station in Barcelona, arrival at Figueres-Vilafant station (a bit less central than the other station at Figueres).
> 
> More info at www.renfe.com (click on the _Viajeros_ section)


Thanks for the reply!
We are not that time constricted but based on this I think the MD suits us best! Maybe on the return lap we will try the Avant services (high speed fun)! Can you buy AVANT tickets at the station as well ?


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## carlesnuc

Videos made ​​this morning to head south from Barcelona, in this section match the line width and RENFE Madrid-Barcelona high-speed line Madrid-Barcelona-French border. 
Because stealing 200 meters of cable has formed an impressive chaos on trains to Barcelona, and affecting both the high speed line to line as wide RENFE


carlesnuc said:


> *Zona Franca 08-05-2014 *
> El caos que habia esta mañana dirección Sants,dirección Vilanova pocos trenes,supongo que también se habra liado por el norte.Tomas hechas desde el puente peatonal de la Calle Feixa Llarga,lo malo que las columnas del puente carretero no ayudaban mucho para hacer buenas tomas....


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## carlesnuc

Photos and video captures of the same incidence


carlesnuc said:


> *Zona Franca 08-05-2014*
> Fotos de esta mañana,a raiz de una incidencia entre El Prat y Bellvitge,el colapso era impresionante...


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## 437.001

da_scotty said:


> Thanks for the reply!


You are welcome. 



da_scotty said:


> We are not that time constricted but based on this I think the MD suits us best! Maybe on the return lap we will try the Avant services (high speed fun)! Can you buy AVANT tickets at the station as well ?


You can, but better book them in advance, since there are no specific Avant trains in the Barcelona-Girona-Figueres route, but Avant-priced seats in the AVE and TGV services.

If by the time you´d want to come back to Barcelona, and the train you´d like to take was a TGV coming from Paris, keep in mind that it could be full.

By which time of year you´d be travelling to Figueres? Because if it´s between late June-mid September, it´s even more likely that it could be full... :hmm:


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## 437.001

*Leon-Gijon line.
Section La Robla-Pola de Lena (Pajares new line).*

Images taken near La Robla.



RDaneel said:


> At Llanos de Alba.
> 
> 
> DSCN1168 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1169 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Here will be a loop:
> 
> 
> DSCN1170 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1171 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Castro tunnel portal:
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> DSCN1172 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> On the other side:
> 
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> DSCN1175 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1176 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Some time ago they changed the classic line, right where the two lines meet. This is now:
> 
> 
> DSCN1173 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1174 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> And this was on 26-February-2011, You can compare with the picture ^^ above:
> 
> 
> DSCN0172 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> At Nocedo. Huergas viaduct and Buen Suceso II tunnel:
> 
> 
> DSCN1177 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
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> DSCN1178 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
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> 
> Nocedo tunnel portal:
> 
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> DSCN1179 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Southern portal (Leon side) of the Buen Suceso II tunnel:
> 
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> DSCN1180 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1181 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> The Huergas viaduct:
> 
> 
> DSCN1183 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1182 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> And that´s all for today.


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## Trenponfe

*León - Monforte de Lemos (- A Coruña) line.*
Some trains in Ponferrada. March 2014. Comsa Class 601, Renfe Class 130, Renfe Class 470 and Renfe Class 253 with a car-train.





Renfe Class 251.


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## carlesnuc

Videos recorded the day 15/05/2015 in Barcelona-Clot and Montcada i made ​​this video last Reixac.El for travel between Barcelona and Montcada and recorded behind the glass door of CIVIA and zoom because the driver had enough under the hood ......


carlesnuc said:


> *BCN Clot-Aragó/Montcada 15-05-2014*
> Videos hechos ayer...
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> Y para acabar video realizado a través de la puerta del cristal del Civia entre La Sagrera y Montcada,la malo que el parasol esta muy bajo y tuve que ponerle un poco de Zoom


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Sagrera station (under construction)*.

Images from April 2014.



jordiq said:


>


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Sagrera station (under construction).*

Aerial views:



Destraler said:


>


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.
River Ulla viaduct, at *Catoira*.



Papos said:


>


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.
*Vigo-Urzáiz station (under reconstruction)*.



zoltan said:


>


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## 437.001

*Valladolid by-pass (for freight) and access to the new Valladolid Renfe workshop*.

It is being built at the same time as the Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia section of the HSL.
Only the northern half of this will open by now. It runs on the east of the city.



pachelo said:


>


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## 437.001

*Valladolid by-pass (for freight), access to the new Valladolid Renfe workshop, and new Valladolid Renfe workshop*.

It is being built at the same time as the Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia section of the HSL.
Only the northern half of this by-pass will open by now. It runs on the east of the city.



vallacopito-tranolid said:


> Inside the future workshop:
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> Welding rails:


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Sagrera station (under construction).*

Today I have a bit of an unusual post.
There have been new findings at the Roman villa discovered during the construction works of the new Sagrera station, including another mosaic.



> Source: La Vanguardia (in Spanish)
> 
> 
> *Daniel Alcubierre / CODEX Arqueologia i Patrimoni*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Daniel Alcubierre / CODEX Arqueologia i Patrimoni*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Daniel Alcubierre / CODEX Arqueologia i Patrimoni*
> 
> Source: La Vanguardia (in Spanish)


 

The villa is located right next to the bend of the road on the bottom left, right next to what will be the main building. At least one of the mosaics will be installed in the future station hall:



Destraler said:


>


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## Neb81

I was at Almeria station yesterday and work has started on dismantling the old freight sidings and their cantenary, though the wires for the platform facing tracks are still in place. The works information board states it's being done by Sociedad Almería Alta Velocidad SA. Does this mean ADIF still holds out hope for LAV Murcia-Almeria? 

Sent from my AN10DG3 using Tapatalk


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## 437.001

Neb81 said:


> I was at Almeria station yesterday and work has started on dismantling the old freight sidings and their cantenary, though the wires for the platform facing tracks are still in place. The works information board states it's being done by Sociedad Almería Alta Velocidad SA. Does this mean ADIF still holds out hope for LAV Murcia-Almeria?


Of course it does, but it will be done when we have enough budget to face it. It´s a line that is really needed.
But right now we simply can´t do it yet, next year we have three more HSL sections to open (Granada, Zamora, Leon)! :dunno:

As for Almeria station itself, aside from the dismantling of those freight sidings, I don´t have a clue how things will be done.


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## JoFMO

437.001 said:


> Of course it does, but it will be done when we have enough budget to face it. It´s a line that is really needed.
> But right now we simply can´t do it yet, next year we have three more HSL sections to open (Granada, Zamora, Leon)! :dunno:


Very interesting news. Can you give some deeper informations:

- Does Leon include the branch to Burgos?
- Isn't Pajares also planned for 2015 (at least one bore)?
- What about Tarragona-Calafat and Valencia-Alacant?
- What about Sevilla-Cadiz?
- What about Vigo-Santiago?

All 5 Projects are also very far advanced, thats why I anm mentioning them.


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## 437.001

JoFMO said:


> Very interesting news. Can you give some deeper informations:
> 
> - Does Leon include the branch to Burgos?


*See here*.



JoFMO said:


> - Isn't Pajares also planned for 2015 (at least one bore)?


I don´t think so. The execution of those tunnels is being very complex, to say the least, and a difficult trench is also involved in the problems.



JoFMO said:


> - What about Tarragona-Calafat and Valencia-Alacant?


Tarragona-Vandellos should open by next year, I suppose, but better be prudent (it´s been nearly 20 years since they started the works, so I don´t trust any data anymore about this section).

For Valencia-Alicante, *see here*. 



JoFMO said:


> - What about Sevilla-Cadiz?


This one has only one section missing, between Marismilla and Utrera, and it could even open by Christmas 2014, if they´re fast enough.

The rest of the Seville-Cadiz upgrade is already in service and finished.



JoFMO said:


> - What about Vigo-Santiago?
> 
> All 5 Projects are also very far advanced, thats why I anm mentioning them.


Large chunks of Vigo-Santiago are already in service, but the big change will be the river Ulla viaduct and the upgrade and new access at Vigo-Urzaiz station. 
And the electrification, of course...


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## 437.001

*Accident!!*

In *Barcelona*, in the Zona Franca industrial area, at a barrier-less level crossing.
An FGC freight train on the route Barcelona-Martorell (for the SEAT car factory, on the FGC metric gauge line) hit a TMB bus that was entering its depot.
No one was hurt, luckily. But the bus is totally destroyed, and the loco derailed and suffered minor damage.

As a curio, look at the rails: triple gauge. This is what makes this accident so unusual.



> Source: *www.btv.cat* (in Catalan)


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## Sr.Horn

437.001 said:


> *Accident!!*
> 
> In *Barcelona*, in the Zona Franca industrial area, at a barrier-less level crossing.



Thank you, I never would have known that an *accident!!* happens in *Barcelona*.

Don't abuse with size, black letters and underline. People can read and is not stupid.


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## Jay

I remember once there was an accident where a renfe emu train hit a midsized bulldozer and didn't derail and now a locomotive hits a flimsy bus and does. Funny. 

It didn't look that catastrophic though, at least not for the train.


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## 437.001

It wasn´t. I just posted it as a curio more tan anything else, as the train derailed on a triple gauge section, which is not usual at all.


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## 437.001

Sr.Horn said:


> Thank you, I never would have known that an *accident!!* happens in *Barcelona*.
> 
> Don't abuse with size, black letters and underline. People can read and is not stupid.


I don´t usually use that font here, unless it is for a non-photo post that may include news or unusual things, and this being a photo-rich thread, is my way to make these posts a bit more visible to people who scroll faster, just that.

I do not think that people are stupid. :dunno:

I´ve corrected that and reduced the font size, mister moderator (have you replaced Svartmetall or someone else, now? ).


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## Sr.Horn

^^ It calls etiquette. People interested in reading, it will. Embellishments are not necessary, and you know it!


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## 437.001

Sr.Horn said:


> ^^ It calls etiquette. People interested in reading, it will. Embellishments are not necessary, and you know it!


Jawohl, oui, claro. :troll: 

Svartmetall has very rarely told me anything about that (if anything, the use of colours).
Certainly much less often than you, and other moderators don´t tell me either.
I´d rather have Svartmetall himself telling me about it here, in case he should.

Btw: go tell carlesnuc, he does it ten times as much as me and in technicolour, and you tell him off ten times less than to me (but you don´t know him, do you? and you know me). :|
I suspect that if I paid more attention to your Japan threads you wouldn´t. Or would you?


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## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.

River Ulla viaduct, at *Catoira*.



SC.sidon said:


>





SC.sidon said:


> Tunnel at the south side of the viaduct:


----------



## Richard_P

437.001 said:


> *Santiago-Vigo line*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> River Ulla viaduct, at *Catoira*.


 So just to be clear - this bridge will have rail tracks on upper deck and pedestrian walk path on lower deck?


----------



## 437.001

Richard_P said:


> So just to be clear - this bridge will have rail tracks on upper deck and pedestrian walk path on lower deck?


Rail tracks on the upper deck, that´s clear.

As for a possible pedestrian walk on the lower deck, I really don´t know, I´ll ask, but I´d say that unless it was for the use of Adif staff, I´d say no.


----------



## Reivajar

^^ I was thinking about the feasibility of open the lower deck for public access, but considering the height of the bridge over the water (and the level were most of the surrounding towns are) it would be relatively useless... but you never know.

Security issues maybe?

Anyway, it wouldn't be the first bridge in Spain with that design: upper deck for tracks, lower deck for road/walkway.


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> Security issues maybe?


Of course. I absolutely discard any public use of the bridge.


----------



## krisu99

437.001 said:


> Rail tracks on the upper deck, that´s clear.
> 
> As for a possible pedestrian walk on the lower deck, I really don´t know, I´ll ask, but I´d say that unless it was for the use of Adif staff, I´d say no.


I've never seen a concrete "lower deck" in a steel girder bridge, I can't understand its purpose. 
Are those onle "loose" concrete slabs laying on the steel beams, or does it form a statically rigid plane? If so, maybe it could help the bridge preventing twisting under very stormy wind speed conditions, I can't see any other use...

An emergency walkway wouldn't make sense, it could be done easier with a cheap steel pattern. 

A public open space along the lower deck would be really really fantastic cool. But in our fantasyless and security dictated paranoia times I don't really see any chance for that. Maybe 50 years ago...Maybe I am wrong


----------



## Reivajar

krisu99 said:


> I've never seen a concrete "lower deck" in a steel girder bridge, I can't understand its purpose.
> Are those onle "loose" concrete slabs laying on the steel beams, or does it form a statically rigid plane? If so, maybe it could help the bridge preventing twisting under very stormy wind speed conditions, I can't see any other use...
> 
> An emergency walkway wouldn't make sense, it could be done easier with a cheap steel pattern.
> 
> A public open space along the lower deck would be really really fantastic cool. But in our fantasyless and security dictated paranoia times I don't really see any chance for that. Maybe 50 years ago...Maybe I am wrong


If I am not wrong, from the document I read, you assumption is right. The lower concrete slabs stabilize the whole structure. It is supposed to be a rigid slab.


----------



## stingstingsting

^^

Hmmm...

Well if you look at the first photo, the piers seem to err... block the way for any pedestrian or road vehicle through movement. hno:

Although I can think of a circuitous workaround (pun) for a pedestrain walkway I doubt its the reason for the concrete lower deck. Structural rigidity seems correct as mentioned.


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## Reivajar

^^ No, in this picture you can see there are small passages through the piles, but they seem to be only designed for maintenance purposes.


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## 437.001

*Zaragoza-Castejón-Logroño-Miranda de Ebro-Bilbao line*.
Somewhere near *San Asensio* station.

A class 120 on an Alvia Bilbao-Barcelona. 



Castor_Game said:


> Alvia s-120 Bilbao Abando-Barcelona Sants en San Asensio (La Rioja) por jiesnarr, en Flickr


----------



## stingstingsting

Reivajar said:


> ^^ No, in this picture you can see there are small passages through the piles, but they seem to be only designed for maintenance purposes.


Ahhh I stand corrected. But yes the small size probably means its only for maintenance use.


----------



## 437.001

*Barcelona-Estació de França station*.

A Talgo IIIRD has been restored, and will be running on Saturdays between Barcelona-Estació de França and Tarragona, calling at Barcelona-Sants and Vilanova i la Geltrú, as a heritage train.

The ticket will include free admission at some of the Tarragona Roman monuments, and (check that if interested, as I´m not very sure) at the Railway Museum in Vilanova i la Geltrú.



> Source: Vía Libre


----------



## gincan

^^
When the network is opened to private operators, I think there would be a market for business class only trains. In fact the old mare nostrum train could probably be operated as a dedicated business class train. It would be similar to the original Renfe Talgo concept but with competitive prices.

I'm thinking about something similar to the blue train that is running the Stockholm-Gothenburg route on the deregulated Swedish rail network, they offer higher comfort, a restaurant coach and a lounge coach with a piano bar. The trip is slower than the fast train, 4 hour instead of 3 but offer much higher travel quality at a resonable price, 40-60 euros for what is basically business class.

http://www.blataget.com/


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## 437.001

*Sant Vicenç de Calders-Roda de Barà-Valls-La Plana Picamoixons line*.
*Roda de Barà station*.

Class 333 pulling the Mataró steam engine, from Lleida back to the Vilanova i la Geltrú museum.



BCN2009 said:


>


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Vilanova i la Geltrú-Sant Vicenç de Calders line*.
Between *Platja de Castelldefels* and *Garraf* stations.

_Estrella Costa Brava (is it still called that way?) Madrid-Barcelona, the only remaining night train on that route_:



BCN2009 said:


>




_The new heritage train "Tarraco Talgo", with an old Talgo IIIRD trainset, on its way from Barcelona to Tarragona_:



BCN2009 said:


>


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## Richard_P

Recently on Videotren channels some new back views were published.

On red Video Tren channel was posted section Zaragozza - Logrono where we can watch drive through cambiador, we can also spot that section to Castelejon is being equipped with dual gauge convertible sleepers (preparation for UIC gauge conversion) while on remaining section the old split block sleepers are replaced by also reused but monoblock concrete sleepers with only Iberian gauge (only on some sections).





Meanwhile on green Video Tren channel recent video of Valladolid - Burgos - Mirinda de Ebro was posted where we can see present Valladolid station layout (with cambiador) and on other sections watch HS rail construction progress.






In Burgos train uses future HS alignment where we can see that on this part will be one Iberian gauge track and two UIC gauge. I have earlier thought that old alignment will be used for freight bypass but this google earth view dismisses that:
https://www.google.pl/maps/place/Bu...4m2!3m1!1s0xd45fcbe3dc20327:0xa1f5beab8e71aa1

I assume that Bulevar del Ferrocaril is former rail alignment - where was the station located?


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## alsama

Richard_P said:


> I assume that Bulevar del Ferrocaril is former rail alignment - where was the station located?


https://goo.gl/maps/a39xM


----------



## Richard_P

^^ I ment old not new station.


----------



## alsama

^^
https://goo.gl/maps/iRYYU


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## krisu99

The case of Burgos where the city crossing line is taken out of the core into the suburbs is so crazy. A road replaces the rails. And it will be a busy road because it goes straight through the city. Great.

There are several cities in Spain that lost or will lose their core rail exchange central stations. I wonder why they do that, this choice is pretty unusual in Europe. Maybe real estate speculators expect rising prices of houses or the opportunity to cover the free land around the former central stations with office buildings or parking lots?
Not even in France they do things like that along their LGV's where city centers are at least served with a off-on branch from the LGV or directly with a through line (e.g. Lille) following the old alignment.

Other cities in Spain where the city center railway traffic will be replaced with car bound road traffic are Vitoria, Alcantarilla, Granada and Mérida. Others just bury the rails under earth, which is better than to remove them from the center, nut it is also ridiculously expensive. I am aware of the reasons given that "the railway line cuts" the city. Well, car drivers have to wait in front of closed barriers that's it. 

Luckily I can say that the economic crisis in Spain at least has some advantages in the sense that regions are so bankrupt nowadays that for now they can not pay for costly city tunneling, not even removing the tracks out of the centers as apparently they would like to do.

Which leads to some disasters like Leon where they already cut the direct city crossing line so trains now have to reverse and take a big loop around the city, losing I guess at least 15 Minutes (the gain of the LAV Palencia-León?). 
Or take Palencia where they try to squeeze the new LAV line onto the existing rail corridor, resulting in two mini capacity single track(!) lines (one UIC, one iberian) where previously there was a reasonable double tracked iberian line.

Why haven't they had a look to France for instance? Or Germany or Switzerland? Build underpasses and bridges in the city center, but leave the rail there! Cover maybe half a kilometer but not the entire city (like Zaragosa).
Otherwise billions of public/european Euros are lost, money other European countries could only dream for when it comes to rail investments. Not to mention the passengers lost and the car and real-estate centric acceleration of urban space redefinition...

So great the high speed network is, so fantastic it is to travel with 300km/h through the country: On a regional level, in maybe half of the cases the worst choices have been taken. Either the super luxury approaches no other country could have afforded in a similar quantity (city tunnels), or the total failures like Burgos or the out-of-money cases like Leon.

Other endless stories with LAV integration are Valencia, the impossibility to route trains from BCN into the new through tunnel in Madrid, the UIC connection of Barjas Airport ... plus the network desintregration because of the UIC/Iberian jam..


But at the end, all this makes Spain a really interesting country to follow and a lot of interesting things are happening in such a short time span like in no other country except China, plus a strong iberian railway industry developing top state-of-the-art technology that now can perfectly compete and beat other world class "traditional" high speed rail countries like France or Germany (for Medina-Makkah HSl for example).


----------



## Richard_P

^^ Many may argue but in most cases You have a point.


----------



## Reivajar

krisu99 said:


> The case of Burgos where the city crossing line is taken out of the core into the suburbs is so crazy. A road replaces the rails. And it will be a busy road because it goes straight through the city. Great.
> 
> There are several cities in Spain that lost or will lose their core rail exchange central stations. I wonder why they do that, this choice is pretty unusual in Europe. Maybe real estate speculators expect rising prices of houses or the opportunity to cover the free land around the former central stations with office buildings or parking lots?
> Not even in France they do things like that along their LGV's where city centers are at least served with a off-on branch from the LGV or directly with a through line (e.g. Lille) following the old alignment.
> 
> Other cities in Spain where the city center railway traffic will be replaced with car bound road traffic are Vitoria, Alcantarilla, Granada and Mérida. Others just bury the rails under earth, which is better than to remove them from the center, nut it is also ridiculously expensive. I am aware of the reasons given that "the railway line cuts" the city. Well, car drivers have to wait in front of closed barriers that's it.
> 
> Luckily I can say that the economic crisis in Spain at least has some advantages in the sense that regions are so bankrupt nowadays that for now they can not pay for costly city tunneling, not even removing the tracks out of the centers as apparently they would like to do.
> 
> Which leads to some disasters like Leon where they already cut the direct city crossing line so trains now have to reverse and take a big loop around the city, losing I guess at least 15 Minutes (the gain of the LAV Palencia-León?).
> Or take Palencia where they try to squeeze the new LAV line onto the existing rail corridor, resulting in two mini capacity single track(!) lines (one UIC, one iberian) where previously there was a reasonable double tracked iberian line.
> 
> Why haven't they had a look to France for instance? Or Germany or Switzerland? Build underpasses and bridges in the city center, but leave the rail there! Cover maybe half a kilometer but not the entire city (like Zaragosa).
> Otherwise billions of public/european Euros are lost, money other European countries could only dream for when it comes to rail investments. Not to mention the passengers lost and the car and real-estate centric acceleration of urban space redefinition...
> 
> So great the high speed network is, so fantastic it is to travel with 300km/h through the country: On a regional level, in maybe half of the cases the worst choices have been taken. Either the super luxury approaches no other country could have afforded in a similar quantity (city tunnels), or the total failures like Burgos or the out-of-money cases like Leon.
> 
> Other endless stories with LAV integration are Valencia, the impossibility to route trains from BCN into the new through tunnel in Madrid, the UIC connection of Barjas Airport ... plus the network desintregration because of the UIC/Iberian jam..
> 
> 
> But at the end, all this makes Spain a really interesting country to follow and a lot of interesting things are happening in such a short time span like in no other country except China, plus a strong iberian railway industry developing top state-of-the-art technology that now can perfectly compete and beat other world class "traditional" high speed rail countries like France or Germany (for Medina-Makkah HSl for example).


The overall is right, but the situation is not that extreme as you explain.

Just considering new stations, the situation is not about to move out of town all the railway hubs.

In the particular case of Burgos, the current station is farther from the old town, but it is not worse located than the old station. It is, Burgos spans mostly to the west and northwest from the old town. Actually the older station was mostly on an edge of the city. One of the most populated neighborhoods of Burgos, Gamonal (more than a third of the population of the city) is actually almost closer to the new station than to the older one. Even, I would say that if you consder the real distribution of population the new station as average is not farther. Accesibility is far better in the new station as it could get direct access to the Northern bypass of the city. The only real problem is that the area where it is located isn't still developed and you will need several decades to get a continuous and compact urban area around the station, but it is a project of future. Anyway, we are not talking about a parkway station out of town in the case of Burgos.

As well, the new northern railway bypass of Burgos, avoiding the city core, and on which the new station has been built, will allow faster speeds for direct trains, without needing doubling the line along two different paths (like in Zaragoza or Lleida).

The cases of Guadalajara, Camp de Tarragona, Antequera-Santa Ana, Puente Genil-Herrera, Segovia-Guiomar, Cuenca-Fernando Zobel, Requena-Utiel and Villena-AV are like in the French case, parkway stations, where demand is not as concentrated and old network and stations don't fit well to high speed requirements. Maybe, in some cases a better integration between old lines and new lines, generating interchange hubs and stations between both networks would be interesting, specially considering the break of gauge. It would be my only real critic to that situation, but I hope it will be better solver in the upcoming years, like it happened in France with some new parkway stations which miss conventional railway link, and now they are being modified.

I would make a clarification about Camp de Tarragona. The network around the polycentric urban area of Tarragona needs to be reorganized. And it will in the future. Just consider that Camp de Tarragona was the easiest way to solve the station in that area on the Madrid-Barcelona HSL. In the future, hopefullym, it will be connected to the conventional network (regional and commuter trains) and furthermore, Tarragona city center station could receive other trains. We will see anyway, if the new Central Station is built or not... but for people who is not living in the city center of Tarragona I would say Camp de Tarragona is better, or at least not that bad. Lots of improvements needs to be done there.

The case of León is pretty dumb, that's true. It is not clear which could be the better option, as there is a fight between the different municipalities of the urban area of León. Tricky thing, and the coolest option (making a whole underground line through the urbanised area) is really expensive. I think they made the wrong decision when they just cut the line without thinking on the real possibilities of a better urban integration.

Actually, the serious problem is the break of gauge as you say, which don't allow all the trains to change from a high speed line to a conventional line in a easy way, as in France, making expensive urban integrations and new dedicated tracks through existing narrow urban corridors. Apparently the change of tracks gauge is going to start on the Mediterranean Corridor, but it is a really serious challenge.

The integration in Valencia is not complicated, but expensive, and the optimal situation is the North-South tunnel and new platforms on the current station site.

I would say the lack of strong railway development in the first age of railways in Spain like in other countries in Europe (which would have reserved lot of land inside urban area for railway facilities) and the huge sale of grounds within cities made by Renfe for reducing debt during the 80's and 90's. It has caused, according to me, some lack of space for trains in the cities. It depends on the city, for sure.

But as you say, the panorama is quite diverse and interesting.


----------



## Richard_P

I think that in Spain failed two things - complete belief that endless money will be available and lack of complex and comprehensive vision of the future railway. As a result basically three rail networks were created - National Iberian gauge, UIC high speed rail and dedicated UIC freight corridors. It was only after financial crisis that everybody noticed that this isn't possible and then another panic decisions were made like single track HS lines, one track bottlenecks at major junctions and massive triple gauge scenarios.

I was watching section Burgos to Mirinda de Ebro particularly to see tracks and basically on whole stretch (in some sections replaced recently) are gauge convertible sleepers but according to plan which was leaked on this forum now it is envisaged dual gauge track on this section requiring not only another sleeper replacement but also expensive in building and maintenance third rail.

This simply must be stopped and it must be decided whether to migrate fully or partially to UIC and draw comprehensive re-gauging plans determining where break of gauge can occur without or with minor disruptions. All this simply because not only Spain but most of the countries in the World can't afford having basically three separate nationwide networks.

Of course I am not criticising Spain’s railway as whole because I do see various problems which it must face starting at underdeveloped network, through tough mountain terrain, to different gauges and power supply. Regarding that it is astonishing what was achieved but it could be done much more if tuff decisions were made in first place :cheers2:


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## 437.001

^^
I´ll post about that in a while.


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## Richard_P

^^ Completely disagree with that.

Edit: 437.001 edited his post making mine complete without sense.


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## 437.001

Which inexact fact that the four posts before post 2604 contain you want me to talk about, then?

Anyway, I won´t discuss it here, but on the high speed railway Spain thread.


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## Richard_P

437.001 said:


> Which inexact fact that the four posts before post 2604 contain you want me to talk about, then?


 If You don't won’t to talk than don't do it, there are three people who expressed their opinions and that's what for forums are. Respect it and peace Brother – don’t start wars where they aren’t... .



> Anyway, I won´t discuss it here, but on the high speed railway Spain thread.


 Which will be complete nonsense as we are talking about classic lines, its re-gauging, freight bypasses or major stations replacement... .

Edit: By the way recent posts in Spanish HS thread are of flora and fauna, doesn't that bothers You?


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## XAN_

Does anyone have Spain structure and loading gauge?


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## alserrod

I do not understand the question, sorry


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## Richard_P

XAN_ said:


> Does anyone have Spain structure and loading gauge?


 Well, some time ago (approx. 2 months ago) someone posted such dimensions but despite sincere attempts I can't find this post. But from that graph was evident that structure gauge and thus loading gauge are a bit wider than European standards although keeping height restrictions. From My knowledge national Iberian gauge network complies to UIC GA/GB/GB+ standards while HS network to GC. Despite that most of rolling stock uses minimal GA loading gauge. (I assume that You are familiar with Wikipedia article about UIC standards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_gauge )


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## XAN_

Well, I mostly intrested in that "wider" thing.


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## Richard_P

XAN_ said:


> Well, I mostly intrested in that "wider" thing.


Hold your horses, I think that by accident I've found what we are looking for in this post by user neuromancer: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=100886671&postcount=265

Edit: Although later I have noticed link to ADIF PDF file where on page 43 are full dimensions of Iberian gauge:
http://www.adif.es/es_ES/conoceradif/doc/CA_DRed_Completo.pdf

Simple comparison UIC minimal loading gauge is 4310 mm high, Iberian is 4300. Regarding width it is 3290/3240 (lower part) while Iberian gauge enables 3300 throughout. :cheers2:

Edit2: Comparing structure gauge to loading gauge is also interesting as Iberian gauge enables 4,3 m maximum train height while structure gauge is set for 4,8 m which makes 50 cm gap between electric wires and train roof while in some European countries only 20 cm separation is required. This problem is even higher in HS lines where structure gauge enables 5,5 m height while maximum UIC GC loading gauge gives 4,7 m so here we have 80 cm separation.

Also looking at structure gauge we may say that platforms can be 2150 mm from track centre in Iberian gauge and 2350 on HS lines which is rather generous bearing in mind that train in Iberian loading gauge can reach up to 1650 mm from track centre and in UIC standards only 1620 mm. Although we don't know if those linked structure gauges include plarofm space or not.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...antiago-accident-says-report.html?channel=542
> 
> *Driver error "only cause" of Santiago accident, says report*
> Thursday, June 05, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPAIN's Transport Ministry yesterday published the final investigation report into the Santiago de Compostela accident on July 24 2013, when a train derailed while travelling at 180km/h on an 80km/h curve killing 79 people.
> 
> The 266-page document points to the human factor as the sole cause of the derailment, as "driving staff failed to follow the regulations contained in the train timetable and the route plan," two printed documents stating maximum permitted speeds for each section between distance markers carried by every driver while on duty.
> 
> The driver's lack of attention, caused by a telephone call answered seconds before the derailment, has been defined by the technical investigation as the only contributing cause of the accident.
> 
> Despite failing to identify any other direct or contributing causes besides human factors, CIAF, the body responsible for the investigation of railway accidents in Spain, has issued a total of 9 recommendations affecting the entire public rail sector.
> 
> Two of these recommendations have been handed down to Adif, inviting the country's rail infrastructure manager to install conventional fixed signals indicating the maximum permitted speed, and balises to control speeds using Asfa, the national ATP system, at locations similar to the sharp curve where the accident occurred, and which were both absent.
> 
> Renfe receives two recommendations, one asking the operator to evaluate the possibility of installing video recorders in cabs (a proposal already made by the Spanish government, and the other calling for better coordination of its internal communications procedures.
> 
> This latter recommendation is connected with an alert raised by a train driver two weeks before the official opening of the Santiago – Ourense high-speed line in December 2011 The driver expressed concerns were about the lack of conventional speed markers before the curve where the accident occurred.
> 
> "There is only a speed reduction signal at km 84.230 (200m before the derailment point) but it is useless because if (when passing the fixed signal) the train has not already decelerated nothing could be done," he said in his report. According to Adif, this communication failed to reach the bodies responsible for infrastructure safety and thus no actions were taken.
> 
> The remaining five recommendations are directed to the Transport Ministry to ensure that the orders given to Adif and Renfe are enforced, and that reinforced risk assessment processes are carried out before a new high-speed line is opened.
> 
> The report does not mention the lack of working onboard ETCS equipment as a contributory cause. Had it not been disconnected in June 2012 due to compatibility problems, the onboard ECTS equipment would have triggered an alert when the train was passing the final ETCS balise on the high-speed line, located 4km from the crash site, obliging the driver to acknowledge the train position, and triggering an emergency brake application if he had failed to do so.
> 
> The Spanish rail investigation body depends entirely on the Transport Ministry. Its president and its five board members are directly appointed and removed by the minister. It has no permanent inspectors and is assisted in its investigations by Ineco (a company entirely owned by the Transport Ministry). When an accident occurs an ad hoc investigation team is formed, and it is always composed by a member of the Ciaf secretariat and two safety executives from both Adif and Renfe.
> 
> The Ciaf report is independent of the judiciary investigation still underway and which has summoned not only the train driver, but also a dozen Adif board members which were in office when the Ourense – Santiago line opened (including the former president Mr Antonio Gonzalez) to give evidence.
> 
> The final report can be viewed in full (Spanish text PDF) on the ministry's website


----------



## krisu99

dimlys1994 said:


> The Spanish rail investigation body depends entirely on the Transport Ministry. Its president and its five board members are directly appointed and removed by the minister.


Well...this says it all ... :-(


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## Richard_P

Going back for a while into gauge issues apart from links in earlier post which show structure gauge and loading gauge I’ve found pdf file which has also kinetic gauge (starting at page 15) and much more detailed stuff where specialist can work on to compare basically all track requirements.

https://upcommons.upc.edu/pfc/bitstream/2099.1/5938/5/04.pdf

Although I still can't find simple information as how far from track centre can be platform edge located :evil:


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...sh-passenger-market-competition-approved.html
> 
> *Competition in the Spanish passenger market approved*
> 13 Jun 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPAIN: Development Minister Ana Pastor announced on June 13 that the cabinet had given its approval for bids to be invited to operate commercial long-distance passenger services in competition with state operator RENFE.
> 
> The winning bidder would be able to operate services for a period of seven years on the Levante network of conventional and high speed routes from Madrid to Albacete, Valencia, Castelló de la Plana, Alacant and Murcia.
> 
> According to Pastor, the new operator would be free to set service levels and fares, with RENFE’s train leasing subsidiary to provide it with rolling stock while it sources its own fleet. At the end of the seven-year period, the Levante network would be fully opened up to competition.
> 
> By progressively opening up the long-distance passenger market to competition, the Spanish government hopes to see increased services at more competitive fares, with ‘new business models’ meeting the needs of passengers. Competition is also expected to drive up rail usage, while RENFE would continue to provide services across the country


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## lkstrknb

I was to Barcelona and Sitges a month ago and filmed some trains just South of Sitges. It was very beautiful!

Luke


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## Bitxofo

^^And some men walking along the tracks to go to the gay beach...


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## Sunfuns

I just returned from Santiago and the relevant part for this forum is a return trip to Pontevedra. So before I forget some of it here is the story with pictures and impressions from someone using Spanish rail for the first time. 

This preserved old train is the first thing you see when arriving at Santiago station. Unfortunately there was no sing so I can't tell you more about it. Anyone knows?


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## Sunfuns

This is Santiago station from outside










I think the station building itself is very old and rather small for a city of its size. It has however been recently refurbished and contains all the facilities one would expect. There is a bus stop in front of it, car park it's also possible to rent a car there. The station is quite close to the city centre (10 min walk).


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## pai nosso

437.001 said:


> Electrification works.
> 
> 
> *Salamanca-Alamedilla* station.


Good news!!


I went recently to Salamanca, and while i was planning the trip i tried to find out if i could go by train.....


It didn`t work so well, let us hope that with the electrification in the near future that might be a possibility!!



P.S.: on the portuguese side, the intercity trains go from Pampilhosa (North Line) to Guarda and the regional trains go from Guarda to Vilar Formoso!!


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## 437.001

^^
To travel from Vilar Formoso to Salamanca by train is hell.

Only one night train per day, and that's all, no other passenger service.

So yes, let's hope for an improvement of the service... but better not hope for too much, given the current state of things. :shifty:


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.

River Ulla viaduct, in Catoira.

Images from 18 August 2014:



Eloy_tp said:


>


----------



## VITORIA MAN

*basque railways / euskotren (spain )*


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Euskotren by CARLOS123456, on Flickr


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## VITORIA MAN

Euskotren by CARLOS123456, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Euskotren- El interior de una 300 esta para Peio  by Jesus Bumpinero, on Flickr


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## VITORIA MAN

Tren Bermeo-Bilbao a cargo de una UT 900 by ordunte, on Flickr


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## VITORIA MAN

Exclusiva... by ililo23, on Flickr


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## dimlys1994

^^*VITORIA MAN*, this is the thread about railways in each country, not in the regions. If you want to publish photos from Basque County, publish here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1733638
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1662917


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Ese interior... by peiogarciagta, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Interior de la UT921 by Giputrains, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

dimlys1994 said:


> ^^*VITORIA MAN*, this is the thread about railways in each country, not in the regions. If you want to publish photos from Basque County, publish here:
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1733638
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1662917


it is not from the basque county, but country , we are a nation .
the threads above are about the undergrounds of san sebastian and bilbao


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Interior 904 by MACD 3, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

EuskoTren UT-310 by euskoemilio, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

EuskoTren 305 by Volvo AUCORSA, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

old model
Preparadose para su ultimo servicio de viajeros by MACD 3, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Euskotren- 219 Con destino Ermua en Zuhatzu-Galdakao by Jesus Bumpinero, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Mis niñas! by ililo23, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Vapor by manolillo91, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Entre Mundaka y Bermeo 21.09.1991 by The STB, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

another old model
Automotor 3101 by Áureo Salgado, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

another one
Bilbao-Atxuri 21-5-1988 by luisignacio.alonso, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Estación de Atxuri by eduiturri, on Flickr
bilbao station


----------



## 437.001

*Zaragoza-Teruel-Sagunto line*.
Near *Monreal del Campo* station (between Zaragoza and Teruel).

A class 599 DMU doing... something REALLY VERY ODD. :uh:  :wtf:  :uh:



Adpg said:


> 104870648


^^
It was done with the authorization of Adif. Someone should be in front of the judge for this. The train had passengers, for fvck's sake. icard:


----------



## 437.001

VITORIA MAN said:


> it is not from the basque county, but country , we are a nation .


Not yet, at the very least. 
Please don't bring politics into this section of the forum, there already is the Skybar for such purposes.


----------



## Sunfuns

I watched, but didn't quite understand what exactly happened... Was it a hole dug under the rails with it collapsing when the train crossed? If so why???


----------



## 437.001

^^
It can' t be seen very clearly, but that's an embankment that the flood took away, there was no ballast, and yet the train crossed. 

To me, that's absolutely intolerable. You can't risk the safety of the passengers like that. It could have overturned. hno: :cripes: :madwife:

The worst is that _after_ the train crossed, the line was closed for repair.

:rant: :soapbox: :bleep: :bash:


----------



## Sunfuns

I understand now... I agree that should not have been allowed. Some risk of derailing plus rails are probably damaged even more after such a crossing.


----------



## 437.001

^^
To me, that was an absolutely foolish thing to do. 

First thing, the driver should have got off the train and inspect the tracks himself, then probably get back to the former station and ask for a subtitution bus, or stay put with the passengers inside and 100% safe.

You can't risk the safety of the passengers like that.


----------



## 437.001

^^
I've discovered a second and better video about the Monreal del Campo incident.


----------



## walky88

Might a compromise solution be for the other thread to be renamed SPAIN | RENFE and for this to be renamed SPAIN | Euskotren?


----------



## 437.001

^^
No, but it could be moved to the _"Subways & urban transport"_ subforum, where there is a Bilbao thread.
That's where it belongs. Euskotren operates only suburban rail lines (plus the Bilbao and Vitoria tramways and a funicular in Trapagaran, a Bilbao suburb).


----------



## alserrod

It is an area that usually get damned when heavy storms come.

Former national road had (and have) the same problem.

Fortunately, paralel motorway A-23 was designed several metres over water level when storms and it is not cut... but I have been driving there with heavy storm and I remember driving on 40 on the motorway


----------



## alserrod

Furthermore... the only corner in Spain without railway to Madrid


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line*.

River Ulla viaduct, in *Catoir*a.



Papos said:


>


----------



## pai nosso

^^
I pass there yesterday, and it is indeed a beautiful and great piece of engineering!!


----------



## pai nosso

*Linea A Coruña-Ferrol*

1-Betanzos Station


2-Railroad bridge over the Mandeo River [Betanzos]


3-Railroad bridge at Pontedeume

Source: pai nosso


----------



## rodineisilveira

*Looks like the stations of the countryside from Brazil*

Pai Nosso, 

The Betanzos station (from RENFE) reminds very much the train stations of the countryside from the São Paulo state, here in Brazil.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Puerto de Pajares inder the snow


----------



## alserrod

Sunfuns...which was your favourite landscape?

And which line(s) would you like to ride?


----------



## Sunfuns

alserrod said:


> Sunfuns...which was your favourite landscape?
> 
> And which line(s) would you like to ride?


I haven't seen enough of Spain to give an authoritative opinion :lol: 

From what I have seen I'll pick Barcelona to Montserrat trip and landscapes near the destination. Perhaps the best possible day trip from Barcelona. Plenty of mountains in Switzerland, but these are very different looking and just as spectacular. 

I usually pick my destinations for other reasons and then see if there is something interesting there rail wise as well. Maybe Andalusia next...


----------



## 437.001

^^
In Andalusia I'd recommend you the trip from Sevilla to Almeria, and the one between Cordova and Algeciras.
Barcelona to Malaga by AVE is alright, too (if done during the daytime).


----------



## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> Barcelona to Malaga by AVE is alright, too (if done during the daytime).


Only if your seat has windows.


----------



## Bitxofo

^^50% of AVE seats are beside a window!


----------



## 437.001

^^
He's claustrophobic, or so he says.


----------



## Coccodrillo

In most trains from Siemens and Talgo seats don't line up with windows, while in CAF trains most do. The worse seat I saw was in the Club class of a S-103 Velaro: a seated person would see the backrest of the seat ahead of him, and a plastic wall on his right.

But even if this is an extreme, many seats of the outer rows don't have a real view of the outside. Either you have a few cm of glass on your side then many cm of plastic, or the other way round, with a lot of plastic on your side then the windows ahead of you. In any case, you can't look outside easily.

Thankfully in Switzerland all seats line up with windows (with very few particular exceptions), but where they don't (for instance, some regional trains around Milan) I always choose a seat with view outside, even when it's dark and not much can be seen and even on lines I know well.

If Siemens and Talgo aren't able to build trains correctly, Renfe should at least allow passengers to choose a seat with a view outside*, like I think in the UK do.

*I know you can choose the windows side or the aisle side on Renfe's website, bud given how seats are placed, a seat on the aisle side might actually have a better view than one on the "windows" side, but you can't know that when you make your reservation.


----------



## alserrod

As Coccodrilo said, not all seats fits with a window in several trains.

This is due to allow going forward train direction (despite 50% forward, 50% back).

In trains where seats cannot be moved (for instance all for Madrid-Seville) all seats fits with a window. In trains where they can be moved... you can be in a window seat... and have barely a little window or less.


----------



## dirdam

Coccodrillo said:


> If Siemens and Talgo aren't able to build trains correctly...


:bash::bash::bash:



alserrod said:


> In trains where seats cannot be moved (for instance all for Madrid-Seville) all seats fits with a window.


Are you talking about Alstom class 100? No, that's not true. 14 seat rows with 6 windows.










About Talgo, it depends on the class. Seats don't fit with the windows in classes 130/730 and 102 because they have 9 seat rows with 5 windows. But they fit in class 112, as it has 10 seat rows with the same 5 windows:


----------



## Bitxofo

Coccodrillo said:


> In most trains from Siemens and Talgo seats don't line up with windows, while in CAF trains most do. The worse seat I saw was in the Club class of a S-103 Velaro: a seated person would see the backrest of the seat ahead of him, and a plastic wall on his right.
> 
> But even if this is an extreme, many seats of the outer rows don't have a real view of the outside. Either you have a few cm of glass on your side then many cm of plastic, or the other way round, with a lot of plastic on your side then the windows ahead of you. In any case, you can't look outside easily.
> 
> Thankfully in Switzerland all seats line up with windows (with very few particular exceptions), but where they don't (for instance, some regional trains around Milan) I always choose a seat with view outside, even when it's dark and not much can be seen and even on lines I know well.
> 
> If Siemens and Talgo aren't able to build trains correctly, Renfe should at least allow passengers to choose a seat with a view outside*, like I think in the UK do.
> 
> *I know you can choose the windows side or the aisle side on Renfe's website, bud given how seats are placed, a seat on the aisle side might actually have a better view than one on the "windows" side, but you can't know that when you make your reservation.


^^In almost all reservations on the Internet, you can choose your seat, except in the promo rate.
If you cannot choose it and unluckily they give you a seat without window, you tell it to the "interventor del tren" and he will change you very kindly.
:yes: 
I did it many times!


----------



## alserrod

There is a trick to choose seat with promo rate!!! I've used it.

I chose three tickets. Two of them with promo rate and the third one with another fare. Providing you are choosing only promo rate seats, they will be randomly given to you.

But in case of one out of all reservations have another fare... you will be able to choose all seats!!!!


In my case the third ticket had children fare (same price but I could change it free and so...). It was when I noticed that I could choose all.


----------



## Bitxofo

^^Not valid for 1 ticket for 1 person...


----------



## alserrod

Obviously not valid...
you can pay a little more and choose de Promo+ rate. It offers you to choose


----------



## 437.001

Former Feve metric-gauge rolling stock (now in Renfe as Feve was recently absorbed by Renfe) finally get their Renfe UIC numbers, as such:

*Locomotives*

*Diesel*

Feve class 1500 ------> Renfe class 315
Feve class 1600 ------> Renfe class 316

*Dual (Diesel/Electric)*

Feve class 1900 ------> Renfe class 619

*DMUs*

Feve class 2400 ------> Renfe class 524
Feve class 2600 ------> Renfe class 526 
Feve class 2700 ------> Renfe class 527 

*Diesel Railcars*

Feve class 2900 ------> Renfe class 529 

*EMUs*

Feve class 3300 ------> Renfe class 433
Feve class 3500 ------> Renfe class 435
Feve class 3600 ------> Renfe class 436
Feve class 3800 ------> Renfe class 438

^^
Note that class 316 diesel locomotives have existed in the past, and actually some old class 316 (Alco) are still operating, but no longer belong to Renfe and have another number.

Note also that class two kinds of class 435 and in two different periods have existed in the past, so these will be the third type of class 435 EMUs.
Class 433, 436 and 438 EMUs have also existed in the past too.

Source (in Spanish): *Vía Libre*


----------



## Rebasepoiss

I watched videotren's Valencia-Barcelona train trip recently. There are obviously a lot upgrading works being done there. Will that line eventually be standard gauge or Iberian gauge?


----------



## redstarcastles

Some pictures from last year:


334.012 Madrid Chamartin 27 November 2014


465 049 Fuencarral 27 November 2014


311.154 Villaverde Bajo Madrid 27 November 2014


310.013 Villaverde Bajo Madrid 27 November 2014


465 014 Madrid Atocha 27 November 2014


446 211 Madrid Atocha 27 November 2014


465 530 Madrid Atocha 27 November 2014


449 002 Madrid Chamartin 27 November 2014


446 203 Fuente de la Mora 27 November 2014


450 004 Madrid Chamartin 27 November 2014


334.026 Madrid Chamartin 27 November 2014 

More here:
http://smu.gs/1BEWI8S


----------



## 437.001

*From Majorca to Provence.*

Source: *Vía Libre* (article in Spanish)



> *SFM (Majorca Railways) sell six class 6100 DMUs to the Train des Pignes in France, by €3.1 million*
> 
> Serveis Ferroviaris de Mallorca, SFM, has sold the six trains to the Direction Générale des Transports of the Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur region, for its exploitation by Chemins de Fer de Provence (CFP) on the Nice-Digne les Bains line.


----------



## Sunfuns

That additional electrification in Mallorca they talk about (right?), is that something in progress?


----------



## 437.001

^^
No, they don't talk about electrifying the missing sections between S'Enllaç and Manacor and S'Enllaç and Sa Pobla.

These sections will remain served by class 6100 DMUs, the ones that won't be sold.

The former government had this project of re-extending the Manacor branch to Arta, but when they were outvoted by the current ones, that project was immediately scrapped and the works that had been started were cancelled, instead a hiking route is being built on the former tracks. 

The current Majorca government is rather anti-railway.


----------



## krisu99

The track conditions of the ligne Nice - Digne les Bains is really bad outside Nice urbanized area. Maybe the worst tracks I ever rode on in western Europe. I hope the Mallorcan trains can tackle this. 
More likely, they will be employed along the urban section only?


----------



## 437.001

krisu99 said:


> The track conditions of the ligne Nice - Digne les Bains is really bad outside Nice urbanized area. Maybe the worst tracks I ever rode on in western Europe. I hope the Mallorcan trains can tackle this.
> More likely, they will be employed along the urban section only?


^^
Heeheee... :|

Good question.

The fact is that the Nice-Digne line has low platforms, while the Majorca trains have step-free high platforms.

I really don't know how will they do that if they want these to coexist with current other rolling stock.

Maybe they will just limit these trains for short commuter services Nice-Lingostière.

The rest of the line really needs an upgrade, yes.


----------



## 437.001

*Zaragoza-Caspe-Reus-Tarragona line.*

River Ebro is having quite a flood.
The line has been cut between Fuentes de Ebro and Quinto stations.

On the image, a class 470 EMU trying its best to stay afloat... 



alserrod said:


> Source: www.heraldo.es


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line (under upgrade).*

Pontevedra station, works are almost finished.



zoltan said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Santiago-Vigo line (under upgrade).*

Vigo-Urzaiz station (under reconstruction). Works are very advanced now.



zoltan said:


>





zoltan said:


>





zoltan said:


>





zoltan said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Crevillente-Murcia line (upgrade).*

Images taken around Orihuela, shortly before the new Orihuela station opened.

For now, not electrified, Iberian gauge, single track.



smontero said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Crevillente-Murcia line (upgrade).*

Images of the new Orihuela station, open for now in Iberian gauge and diesel.



smontero said:


>





TLSA350 said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Medina del Campo-Salamanca line (under electrification) & connection to the HSL.*

It's very advanced in places.

The least advanced section is near Medina del Campo, though.

Images taken between Salamanca and Moriscos stations:



Albe®to said:


>





Albe®to said:


>




Gomecello station and surroundings:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


>




Salamanca station:



Albe®to said:


>


----------



## Sunfuns

Has the opening date already been announced?


----------



## 437.001

I don't know.

I think first would be Santiago-Vigo including the Ulla viaduct.
Then Salamanca-Medina del Campo.
Then Valladolid-Palencia (maybe also Palencia-Leon?).
Then Olmedo junction-Zamora.
Then Antequera-Santa Ana-Granada.
Then Vandellos-Vilaseca.
Then Monforte del Cid junction-Murcia.
Then Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona.

But there are no exact dates yet.


----------



## arctic_carlos

437.001 said:


> I don't know.
> 
> I think first would be Santiago-Vigo including the Ulla viaduct.
> Then Salamanca-Medina del Campo.
> Then Valladolid-Palencia (maybe also Palencia-Leon?).
> Then Olmedo junction-Zamora.
> Then Antequera-Santa Ana-Granada.
> Then Vandellos-Vilaseca.
> Then Monforte del Cid junction-Murcia.
> Then Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona.
> 
> But there are no exact dates yet.


If openings follow this order, the correct sections must be:

1) *Olmedo junction - Medina del Campo* (new section) *-* *Salamanca* (electrification of the current line)

2) *Medina del Campo - Zamora*

Electrification between Medina del Campo - Salamanca cannot be put into service without opening the HSL section between Olmedo junction and Medina del Campo.


----------



## 437.001

^^
Or so we think for now. Someone says otherwise, and that someone can be extremely reliable at times.

Btw, to clarify, arctic_carlos means Medina del Campo-AV station on the HSL, not Medina del Campo station on the classic line.

:troll: On a more off-topic vein, this is my post number 22,222. I feel like Mr.Bean. :nocrook::cheer:


----------



## Sunfuns

I checked that there are currently few trains per day going from Valladolid to Salamanca via Medina del Campo. Will this connection also be shortly possible with electric trains or is there a gap somewhere?


----------



## 437.001

^^
Theoretically, the first phase involved electrication of Medina del Campo-AV to Salamanca, leaving the short section between the junction to the HSL and Medina del Campo classic line station unelectrified.

In a second phase, that gap, as well as Salamanca-Vilar Formoso would be electrified too.

But that's all we know, maybe there's been some change in the plan... or maybe not. :dunno:


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ There is nothing new.
Valladolid to Salamanca with electric drive alone with dual voltage equipment and variable gauge (121 series) and reversing in Olmedo HS. 
I do not believe commercial service under these conditions, at least from Valladolid. Maybe from Barcelona.
.................................................................
No hay nada nuevo.
De Valladolid a Salamanca con tracción eléctrica solo con material bitensión y ancho variable (S-121) y con inversión de marcha en Olmedo HS. No creo que exista servicio comercial en esas condiciones, al menos desde Valladolid, quizás sí desde Barcelona.


----------



## Nexis

Whats the grade on that tunnel approach?


----------



## 437.001

^^
Quite a bit, more than 20 mm.


----------



## Nexis

Do trains have any issues climbing that?


----------



## Suburbanist

Will Spain, in the long term, convert all network to 25kV 50HzAC? Or does it intend to keep also the 3kV DC system as well?


----------



## 437.001

Nexis said:


> Do trains have any issues climbing that?


Passenger trains, not in the slightest. 
Besides, nearly all of them will call at Orihuela station, so no real speed issue.

The question here is: will freight trains run on this line? 



Suburbanist said:


> Will Spain, in the long term, convert all network to 25kV 50HzAC? Or does it intend to keep also the 3kV DC system as well?


How long is "long term" for you?


----------



## 437.001

*Zaragoza-Goya* station.

A class 470 EMU, probably bound for Barcelona.

:sly:

Where is the train? On the picture, of course. 

:shifty:

No kryptonite. No questions asked.



Adpg said:


>


:bash:


----------



## carlesnuc

*Barcelona Estació de França 14/03/2015*
Includes video of Talgo RD exit destination Puigcerdà


carlesnuc said:


> *Barcelona Est de França 14/03/2015*
> Con fotos del Talgo RD destino Puigcerdà
> *Video de la salida del Talgo RD*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Salida de un 450 y llegada del Torre del Oro desde Sant Andreu*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DSC00658_1024x576 by carlesnuck2012, on Flickr
> DSC00659_1024x576 by carlesnuck2012, on Flickr
> DSC00660_1024x576 by carlesnuck2012, on Flickr
> DSC00661_1024x576 by carlesnuck2012, on Flickr
> DSC03454_1024x768 by carlesnuck2012, on Flickr
> DSC03456_1024x768 by carlesnuck2012, on Flickr
> DSC03462_1024x768 by carlesnuck2012, on Flickr
> DSC03466_1024x768 by carlesnuck2012, on Flickr
> DSC03471_1024x768 by carlesnuck2012, on Flickr
> DSC03480_1024x768 by carlesnuck2012, on Flickr
> DSC03487_1024x768 by carlesnuck2012, on Flickr
> DSC03498_1024x768 by carlesnuck2012, on Flickr
> DSC03502_1024x768 by carlesnuck2012, on Flickr


----------



## Patryk

Can someone upload any pics of interior and exterior of Madrid Atocha trains station? I can't find on spanish ssc...


----------



## alserrod

I am with a mobile and cannot set links here.
However, go to Infraestructuras y transportes - Ferrocarriles - Infraestructuras ferroviarias.

The thread will be something starting on "Estaciones - Madrid..." ( there are four thread pages. But surf there)


----------



## Rumours

I wish more countries would follow Spain in railway development.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

they can also follow our debt


----------



## Castor_Game

Patryk said:


> Can someone upload any pics of interior and exterior of Madrid Atocha trains station? I can't find on spanish ssc...




Estación de Atocha, Madrid por Francisco Aragão, en Flickr



Invernadero de atocha por Angel Rodriguez-Rey, en Flickr



Overview of turtles por Jim Whitehead, en Flickr



Atocha cercanías por Antonio, en Flickr



Mi blog personal: davidfmolina.wordpress.com/ por David Fernández Molina, en Flickr



Atocha Dinámica por Fran, en Flickr



Atocha por .Robert., en Flickr



65 Estación de Atocha Moneo Nueva terminal AVE 3417 por Javier, en Flickr



Madrid Atocha railway station. por Raúl A.-, en Flickr



AVE 300km/hr train fleet, Madrid Puerta de Atocha Estacion, Madrid, Spain por Pranav Bhatt, en Flickr



25 Estación de Atocha Moneo Nueva terminal AVE 3384 por Javier, en Flickr



Monumento Victimas 11M 31296 por Javier, en Flickr


----------



## Sunfuns

Wow, this station looks much better than Barcelona Sants.


----------



## 437.001

^^
No wonder. Barcelona-Sants was built in the 1960/70s, and was only upgraded for the arrival of the AVE. It's always been quite chaotic, a bit like Madrid-Chamartin.

Madrid-Atocha is bigger, older, and was upgraded in the 1990s, then once again in the 2000s (and one more upgrade is planned -and a massive one).
Right now it's the biggest station in Spain.


----------



## Patryk

@Castor_Game Gracias! Very impressive and preety station!


----------



## 437.001

:gossip: *RUMOUR!!* :gossip:

Upgrade of *Santiago-Vigo* line to open somewhere between May 6, 2015 and June 13, 2015.

The sections Arcade-Cesantes-Redondela, Pontevedra-Portela-Vilagarcía, and Vilagarcía-Catoira-A Escravitude, some of which are currently disconnected from the main line due to new stretches opening, will be maintained, since it is planned to establish commuter rail services between Vigo Guixar and Santiago.


----------



## Castor_Game

Patryk said:


> @Castor_Game Gracias! Very impressive and preety station!


Thank You, Patryk


----------



## Bitxofo

Sunfuns said:


> Wow, this station looks much better than Barcelona Sants.


You cannot compare Madrid Atocha with Barcelona Sants.
You can compare Madrid Chamartín with Barcelona Sants, both ugly!
And you can compare Madrid Atocha with Barcelona França, both very beautiful!!


----------



## gincan

Sunfuns said:


> Wow, this station looks much better than Barcelona Sants.


Barcelona Sants was built during the Spanish recession of 1974-76, on top of that Spain saw huge inflation and a tourist boycott thanks to Franco's antict.

The station was basically a concrete shell until it saw some minor improvements ahead of the 1992 olympics, the it saw a few minor improvements ahead of the opening of the HSR line to Madrid.


----------



## Sunfuns

Barcelona Sants is not a beauty, certainly not when compared with Madrid Atocha, but actually I didn't find it particularly ugly or deficient from a practical point of view. I would describe it as average. The worst major station I've seen in Spain is Zaragoza Delicias…


----------



## arctic_carlos

Barcelona-Sants ticket hall has been left as a mere "wide corridor" with the opening of some shops in the middle of it. It used to be a practical station until they decided to lose public transport users space in favor of private business... It's a shame. Now try to transfer from trains to metro at peak time. You need to dodge people, baggage and shops!


----------



## 437.001

^^
And that, in a station which will only see the passengers increase in the short term (connection of the Valencia line to the Madrid-Barcelona HSL, new HSL to Murcia, new HSL to Granada, new HSL between Nîmes and Montpellier, new metro extensions...). hno::bash:


----------



## checklist

Rumours said:


> I wish more countries would follow Spain in railway development.


Spanish railway is a phenomenal fiasco in financial terms. It has been built as a political weapon to gain clientelistic voters. Now it requires huge perpetual investment to keep it running without the possibility of recovering such expenses. The quantity of users is and will be for ages too low to make it worth to have. Nevertheless, the politicians will keep enlarging it to remote and unpopulated areas. Meantime, the crowded mediterranean area is kept underinvested. Why? Madrid is not there.

Believe me. I wish not many countries make such historical mistakes.hno:

High Speed trtains in Spain have not increased mobility. It has only taken passengers from airports network still being managed monopolitically and also used as a political weapon. Which has made it largely oversized too.


----------



## Castor_Game

^^^^

Mr. checklist has a very limited view of the problem and quite biased; are those citizens (few according to him) in these remote and uninhabited areas (the gentleman is referring to the Gobi Desert?) has no right as anyone from the rest of country to have decent services ?. One wonders whether if any not had so far is or the simple reason that Barcelona was not there.


----------



## Bitxofo

^^Well, HS lines are not "economically profitable" for cities with less than 500000 inhabitants approx., but politicians are politicians...

Spanish Government should develop the "conventional network" with speeds up to 250 kph.

This is my personal opinion.


----------



## Reivajar

Upgrading the existing conventional and classic lines up to 250 kph (or just making them competitive) would be pretty expensive as it would force to built lots of new stretches, it is, building new lines which is really close to what they are actually doing with the new HSLs.

Maybe, in the flatlands of Central Spain it would be a feasible alternative for improving the network, but in the rest of the network building long new line would be the only useful solution.


----------



## arctic_carlos

kbbcn said:


> That's a shame. When taking a morning train to Castellón or Valencia that part of the line (Castelldefels to Tarragona) always made my day, it's a beautifull stretch of track. And from what I understand, I will not really add a lot to the efficiency, since the "black" part of the line (single track past Tarragona) will still be in use?


No, the project includes a new double track section further inland between Vandellòs (current end of double track) and Camp de Tarragona station on the HSL. When the project is finished, Barcelona - Valencia will be around 2h15min, much better than now.


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## Metred

Narrow-gauge EMU unit in Sukarrieta doing the Bilbao-Bermeo service. Basque Country.


Tren Bermeo-Bilbao a cargo de una UT 900 by ordunte, on Flickr


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Before the HSL was built, which route did Zaragoza => Barcelona trains used? Lleida or Caspe and Reus?


In addition, one daily via Caspe, the other ones via Lerida.
Caspe one called in Reus obviously.

The other trains departing Barcelona and different destinations (Irun, Bilbao, Vigo and so on) always via Lerida.

Trains via Lerida could call at Tarragona and Reus or go via Valls

Night trains, one via Caspe. Other ones via Lerida


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Are there any update on the issue of the Burgos-Aranda del Oro-Madrid line? It has been closed due to a landslide, right?


Last year an historic train arrived to Aranda and it was the first train in several years.

One SSC forumer was part of the staff and told us several things about the railway and surroundings


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## Castor_Game

*SPANISH TRAINS*​
*RENFE S443 “Platanito” (Small banana) / 1979 -1987 (Prototype) CAF-FIAT-ANSALDO*​


Joya del ferrocarril por San Cristóbal de los Ángeles por Renfe-450, en Flickr


19870428_0010_El 443-001 estacionado en Madrid-Chamartín por torrego_family, en Flickr


Vista del Platanito desde el andén por Renfe-450, en Flickr


Asientos de segunda clase del Platanito por Renfe-450, en Flickr


platanito por Aitor Fernández Martín, en Flickr​


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## Suburbanist

Which Spanish metropolitan areas have a "Cercanías" system?


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## Gusiluz




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## Vaud

^^ Those figures don't include non-Renfe systems, for instance Bilbao and Barcelona have separate companies offering suburban railway services.


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## Robi_damian

Vaud said:


> ^^ Those figures don't include non-Renfe systems, for instance Bilbao and Barcelona have separate companies offering suburban railway services.


And Valencia has integrated some suburban lines into Metrovalencia.


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## Richard_P

I am wondering why in 2013 there was such slump in passenger patronage?


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## Bitxofo

Gusiluz said:


> ...


Also Tarragona, Girona and Lleida:

http://rodalies.gencat.cat/ca/linies_estacions_i_trens/servei_regionals/

^^"Sort of" rodalies!
:sly:


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## Metred

Suburbanist said:


> Which Spanish metropolitan areas have a "Cercanías" system?


There are several different commuter-rail networks, but the one that goes by the name of Cercanías is generally Renfe Cercanías (known as Rodalies in Catalonia). There are *Renfe Cercanías* systems in Madrid, Gijón-Oviedo, Santander, Bilbao, San Sebastian-Gipuzkoa, Zaragoza, Valencia, Alicante-Murcia, Málaga, Cádiz and Seville. Under the brand of Rodalies in Girona, Barcelona, Lleida and Tarragona.

In addition to those there are other region-based commuter-rail services like *Feve* in A Coruña, Asturias, Santander, Bilbao and Murcia. There are also others like Euskotren in Bizkaia (Bilbao-Lezama, Bilbao-Bermeo, Bilbao-Durango) and Gipuzkoa (Donostia-Hendaye), TRAM in Alicante (Alicante-Benidorm) and probably some others.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ FGC has two suburban networks in Barcelona Metropolitan Area, Llobregat - Anoia (metric gauge) and Barcelona - Vallès (standard gauge).


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## alserrod

And Cordoba has a sort of commuter railway. Quite small... but still medium distance to avoid to create a node there


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## Gusiluz

Here are the latest reports of the OFE (Observatory of the Railway in Spain), which are the most complete (in Spanish, although there are more data than words).
In 2013 there is an index on page 7 and non-Renfe commuters are starting on page 124.

The fall of 2013 I guess it was because of the crisis, for the demand, and reduced services, for the supply.


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## Castor_Game

And *SFM* (Serveis Ferroviaris de Mallorca) en Majorca Island



PINTADAS por visualProtest.com, en Flickr


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## Castor_Game

*SPANISH TRAINS*​
*RENFE S432 Electrotren “Obispo” (Bishop) / 1971 -2010 CAF-MACOSA*​


Electrotrén serie 432 en colores originales estacionado en Madrid-Chamartín por Jose Ignacio Esnarriaga, en Flickr



Pancorbo 6-9-1987 por luisignacio.alonso, en Flickr



Unidad eléctrica serie 432 de Renfe Regionales por Meijo Ferroviario Salamanca, en Flickr



Unidad eléctrica serie 432 de Renfe Operadora por Meijo Ferroviario Salamanca, en Flickr



Regional -serie 432- Pamplona-Vitoria en Irurzun (Navarra) por Jose Ignacio Esnarriaga, en Flickr​


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## Robi_damian

Question: I heard that Valencia will get a modern train station to replace the current dual use of the old and beautiful Estacion del Norte and the modern and the temporary AVE box at Joaquín Sorolla. Is there a timetable for the construction of this station? I saw online, briefly, that it will be close to the current location of Norte and JS stations, but the information seems limited.


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## 437.001

Robi_damian said:


> Question: I heard that Valencia will get a modern train station to replace the current dual use of the old and beautiful Estacion del Norte and the modern and the temporary AVE box at Joaquín Sorolla. Is there a timetable for the construction of this station?


No.



Robi_damian said:


> I saw online, briefly, that it will be close to the current location of Norte and JS stations, but the information seems limited.


It will be Valencia Norte underground, an Atocha-like upgrade of the old station. 

Too expensive for now.


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## 437.001

:siren: *News!* :siren:

*Santiago-Vigo upgrade to open this week*.
Tickets on sale from tomorrow.

New best travel times for regional services:

-Pontevedra-Vigo Urzaiz 15 min (current travel time Pontevedra to Vigo Guixar in 36 min)
-Pontevedra-Vilagarcía 16 minutes (current travel time time 23 min)
-Pontevedra-Santiago 39 min (current travel time 56 min)
-Pontevedra-Corunna 1h08min (current travel time 1h34min)


Source (in Spanish): the Ministry.

:banana:


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## Sunfuns

There should have been only one station in Vigo, no doubt about that but it's way too late for that so I didn't mention it. It is possible to take a regular train to Ourense and then Alvia to Madrid from there. Probably wouldn't save time though even if schedules were perfectly aligned.

And Austrians are tunnelling like crazy now so there is plenty of interesting things going on in your country as well


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## arctic_carlos

We can't forget that what has been put now into service in Vigo is just the first phase of the new railway scheme of the city. While it's true that the old Vigo Urzaiz was less than 30 years old, it had to be rebuilt underground in order to enable the second phase of the project, that is to say, the south access to the station, coming both from Portugal and Ourense.

Once this second phase is built (which involves an expensive tunnel under the city and maybe a second station to serve southern neighborhoods of Vigo), trains coming from Ourense and Portugal will be able to access the new station directly from the south and therefore continue northwards to Coruña without the need of reversing or changing trains. The south access will link Vigo - Urzaiz to Porriño station, hence saving a lot of kilometers to trains coming from the south.

Thus, it should be a priority to re-electrify the current line Ourense - Vigo in 25 Kv, in order to allow electric trains to interoperate in the Galician lines without restrictions. The Portuguese network is also electrified in 25 Kv, and there are real plans to electrify in the Portuguese side to electrify the missing section between Nine and the Spanish border (and the short section between the border and Guillarei, in Spain).


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Of course I have no idea either, but if there isn't then it's time to start thinking about ordering more. I remember reading that there are more HS trains available than there is use for them, but it might be different for regional trains.


I think they have in mind some orders for HSR.
There is also this idea of revamping class 451 (3-car double-decker EMUs now running on commuter rail services in Barcelona) to regional rail in Catalonia, the Barcelona-Tortosa line in particular, which gets quite busy in summer. 
But nothing official yet. 



Sunfuns said:


> That's really silly. Brand new route there doesn't make much sense and it seems unlikely he will achieve anything. Galicia has already been quite favoured in HSR spending.


Correct, that new route they want is nonsense, too costly, too hilly. 



Sunfuns said:


> Ok, not an hour but Vigo ought to get significant time improvements as well. Exactly the same they are getting for trips to Santiago over the new line.


Not quite. Alvia trains Pontevedra-Madrid and Vigo-Barcelona don't use the HSL between Santiago and Ourense, never have. They use the Minho Valley classic line instead, via Guillarei and Ribadavia, along the Portuguese border (and a beautiful line if you ask me).

Only Corunna-Madrid and Corunna-Barcelona trains use the HSL.

This means that the Alvia Pontevedra-Madrid runs from Pontevedra till Vigo-Guixar, where it reverses, and then continues on towards Ourense and Madrid via the Minho Valley.

This means that Pontevedra has a very long travel time to Madrid because of the reversal at Vigo. On the other hand, another important town such as Vilagarcía has never had a direct train for Madrid or Barcelona.

If the Madrid and Barcelona Alvias could run on the HSL, then Pontevedra travel time for Madrid would be cut in one hour or more, as the route would be Madrid-Ourense-Vilagarcía-Pontevedra-Redondela-Vigo Urzaiz instead of the current Madrid-Ourense-Guillarei-Redondela-Vigo Guixar-Redondela-Pontevedra route. There is no direct train from Barcelona to Pontevedra now, but if they used the HSL, there would be.



Sunfuns said:


> It is a bit odd, particularly from above, but inside seems to quite functional.


Odd because it's unfinished, but even the finisehd Project seemed odd to me.



Sunfuns said:


> There is so much potential for this new infrastructure if it's used right. It looks like there is enough capacity for long distance services, fast regional services as well as all stopping local services by using a combination of old and new lines. What would be useful to facilitate this is electrification of remaining unelectrified portions of classical line between Santiago and Vigo.


Spot on. 



Sunfuns said:


> Also it seems to me that in Galician context there is too much emphasis on connections to Madrid. They are of importance and the new line when fully finished will deliver that, but even more important is high quality (regular, high frequency) local/regional traffic. If you live in Pontevedra a trip to Vigo or Santiago is a lot more likely than to Madrid.


While on one hand you have a point, it is to be noted that Galicia long-distance travel times have always been the worse, and that by a far cry.
On the other hand, northern Spain has much more in common with Madrid than Eastern, Northeastern or Southern Spain (bar Alicante, which is Madrid's beach). There is many more people from Northern Spain in Madrid than from other regions.

This means more potential trips if the travel time gets any decent than from other regions.


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## 437.001

:siren: *NEWS! (update)* :siren:



437.001 said:


> :siren: *NEWS! (update)* :siren:
> 
> *Santiago-Vigo upgrade to open next Saturday (it seems).*


It did open on Saturday.

6,000 passengers on its first day of operation.


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## 437.001

^^
And here's what we were ALL waiting for. The river Ulla viaduct at Catoira:



SC.sidon said:


> Train Vigo-Corunna:
> 
> 
> Tren 11:15 Vigo-Coruña 18-4-1015 viaducto del Ulla by sc.sidon, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Tren 11:15 Vigo-Coruña 18-4-1015 viaducto del Ulla by sc.sidon, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Train Corunna-Vigo:
> 
> 
> Tren 12:00 Coruña-Vigo 18-4-1015 viaducto del Ulla by sc.sidon, on Flickr


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## 437.001

^^
A class S.121 running on the river Ulla viaduct bound for Vigo Urzaiz:


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## 437.001

^^
More:

One thing that should be noted is that Pontevedra, head of the province of the same name, is another city that gets electrification:



zoltan said:


> Departures screens at Pontevedra station with the first trains for Vigo Urzaiz. Note also a train for Vigo Guixar.
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## 437.001

^^
Class S.121 at Pontevedra station, bound for Vigo Urzaiz.


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## 437.001

On a totally different area.

Nostalgic (and remarkable) video of trains running along the *Madrid-Aranda de Duero-Burgos line*.
Including Talgo III trainsets and class 10000 coaches, class 352 and 333 locomotives, interesting scenery.


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## Richard_P

First of all congratulations for opening of rebuild Vigo - Santiago line it would be great to see it from drivers perspective but I assume that we have to wait for that. In the meantime we can see section from A Coruna to Santiago in film below (it's back view and only 480p but still quite a good film).





By the way does anybody can now find LAV Ourense - Santiago video? It was great and that user posted also Vigo-Santiago sections so there might be a chance to find there something new but You Tube tends to find other pretty much crap instead of that movie.

And on other hand, does anybody know what happened with Videotren? Both are looking as almost completely erased (1-2 movies left). I must admit, that I liked that channels.


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## 437.001

^^
Probably he's been given an infraction by Renfe. He was a Renfe worker, presumably. I suspect he did that without the approval of the company.


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## Richard_P

^^That would be complete shame but there must be a reason why cab views from Spain are a rarity yet there is so much to see, so much development going on :sad2: I understand concerns about terrorist attacks but those movies doesn't show anything which can't be spotted in any other way while 2004 bombings proved that people are the target not infrastructure itself... .


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## gincan

Richard_P said:


> And on other hand, does anybody know what happened with Videotren? Both are looking as almost completely erased (1-2 movies left). I must admit, that I liked that channels.


Pretty much expected there would be a reaction after the tragic accident in Santiago de Compostela, although the security was to lax before, letting in non authorized person into the cabin distracting the driver, now it is probably to stringent with draconian rules, but then again, the credibility of Spanish railways is at stake here so better be safe than sorry.


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## Trenponfe

Renfe class 269 (269.967) with an empty scrap train to Villaverde Bajo.


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## Metred

*Narrow-gauge Feve freight train in Irauregi, Basque Country*


Para gustos los colores by peiogarciagta, on Flickr


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## OriK

Richard_P said:


> ^^That would be complete shame but there must be a reason why cab views from Spain are a rarity yet there is so much to see, so much development going on :sad2: I understand concerns about terrorist attacks but those movies doesn't show anything which can't be spotted in any other way while 2004 bombings proved that people are the target not infrastructure itself... .


Few after the 2004 bombings another bomb was discovered in the seville hsl...

From what I remember somehow it was detected as an anomalous object on the track before any train could pass by... when the police arrived they discovered that it was meant to be manually activated so supposedly the terrorists ran away when they saw the renfe workers arriving at the place.


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## krisu99

There was also this Cab View Video from Ourense to Santiago, which was particularly interesting to analyze immediately after the Santiago accident:
Watching the video immediately revealed how the speed restrictions were not enforced by ASFA / ETCS, and the driver had to visually rely at high speed on really small signs along at the line to know where exactly to slow down from high speed to snail speed in order to avoid an accident.

Especially during the first days after the accident newspapers wrote a lot of BS concerning the dynamics of the accident, precise information was not there.

In that case the video was of great help also for the well functioning of the democratic political system. In the weeks after the accidents, media picked up the video and some researched by them selves and analyzed the line signals and made the scandalous (IMHO) configuration public.

Without that now well known drivers video media would have to solely rely on information provided by ADIF / RENFE, which we know have been very biased in protecting the company... so that video was a luck the functioning of a constitutional democracy...

From that point of view, all videos should go back online... 
(Maybe the filming dab driver should remove all evidences that might identify him....)

NB: Since someone asked for the Ourense-Santiago video: The original one seems not to be online any more, but others came in:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggF8J4YFLTQ (the last 7km....)
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUmXaUlWyQs (not the entire line)


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## K_

arctic_carlos said:


> We can't forget that what has been put now into service in Vigo is just the first phase of the new railway scheme of the city.


A question about Vigo: When I was there a couple of years ago I noticed that the bus station was quite a distance from the city centre, and that it was nowhere near the train station...
Is this set to improve? I would deal it logical that buses to important places not served by rail would leave from somewhere near the train station...


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## K_

437.001 said:


> ^^
> Note that the top graphic shows the new fast services, using the new Vigo-Urzaiz station, the new sections between Vigo and Arcade, and between Vilagarcía and A Escravitude (using the new Padrón-Barbanza station and the river Ulla viaduct).
> 
> While the bottom graphic shows the remaining regional trains which will reach Vigo Guixar station, and will keep on using the old classic sections and call at more stations.


What I notice is that:
- Service levels are rather low. Is that why so much money was spend?
- There is little or no coordination between services. Since the fast trains all pass through Santiago at xx:30 I would expect the locals on Santiago - Vilagarcia to leave Santiago at something like xx:35.


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## Sunfuns

K_ said:


> What I notice is that:
> - *Service levels are rather low. *Is that why so much money was spend?
> - There is little or no coordination between services. Since the fast trains all pass through Santiago at xx:30 I would expect the locals on Santiago - Vilagarcia to leave Santiago at something like xx:35.


Yes, by Swiss standards and I wrote about it above nevertheless we need to recognise that what you see now is a significantly higher level of service than just last year when I was there. Hopefully it's set to improve further in the future. Perhaps 437.001 guess about there not being enough trains for more service is a right one.


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## 437.001

^^
Ah, okay. So what makes a "full railway different" from a "commuter railway"?
As a matter of fact, commuter railway implies railway, that is, full railway.
I'm talking infrastructure, not services.

Metro or tram are different animals.

And yes I know, sometimes things tend to mix, but in normal conditions, to me the distinction is quite clear between what is "a railway", what is "a tramway" and what is "a metro".


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## 437.001

Bitxofo said:


> 1st line from Havanna to Bejucal, Cuba, in 1837.
> 2nd from Bejucal to Güines, Cuba, in 1839.
> 3rd from Cárdenas to Jovellanos, Cuba, in 1840.
> 4th from San Felipe to Batabanó, Cuba, in 1843.
> 5th from Rincón to San Antonio de los Baños, Cuba, in 1844.
> 6th from Matanzas to Juan Gualberto Gómez, Cuba, in 1845.
> 7th from Camagüey to Lugareño, Cuba, in 1846.
> 8th from Cienfuegos to Palmira, Cuba, in 1847.
> 9th from Juan Gualberto Gómez to Unión de Reyes, Cuba, in 1848.
> 10th from Güines to Unión de Reyes, Cuba, in 1848.
> 11th from Barcelona to Mataró, Catalonia, in 1848.
> 12th from Unión de Reyes to Pedro Betancourt, Cuba, in 1849.
> 13th from Havanna to Guanajay, Cuba, in 1849.
> 14th from Lugareño to Camagüey, Cuba, in 1851.
> 15th from Jovellanos to Colón and Pedro Betancourt, Cuba, in 1851.
> 16th from Madrid-Atocha to Aranjuez, Madrid, in 1851.
> 17th from Colón to Los Arabos, Cuba, in 1852.
> 18th from Gijón to Pinzales, Asturias, in 1852.
> etc, etc...
> :yes:


Fixed. 

We don't know our own history.


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## hammersklavier

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ The two most populated Canary Islands (Tenerife and Gran Canaria) really need some kind of railway in order to tackle the chronic congestion problems they endure. Of course we're talking about some kind of suburban or commuter rail, not an intercity railway.
> 
> There are projects to build railway lines in both islands, but their cost will be really high because of terrain and urbanism, and therefore many parts of the lines will have to be underground.
> 
> Majorca, also an island, has had a small railway network for more than a century. It has been recently electrified and it offers a good service.


Well yeah. Honolulu's building an elevated metro too. But the point is that isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. It's _intracity_ rail when at the national level we're looking at *intercity* connections. Connections between places rather than connections within places.

And on islands like Tenerife or Oahu, that's never going to be practical by any modes other than ship or plane, a marked contrast with mainland city pairings.


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## Robi_damian

437.001 said:


> ^^
> Ah, okay. So what makes a "full railway different" from a "commuter railway"?
> As a matter of fact, commuter railway implies railway, that is, full railway.
> I'm talking infrastructure, not services.
> 
> Metro or tram are different animals.
> 
> And yes I know, sometimes things tend to mix, but in normal conditions, to me the distinction is quite clear between what is "a railway", what is "a tramway" and what is "a metro".


It does, but if the line is fully isolated from the rest of the network, and covering a fairly small metropolitan area (e.g. 890.000 people like Tenerife) it is likely to have distinctly ”train-traim” or ”metro” features while having the functionality of a commuter train (i.e. fairly light rail vehicle with slightly lower standard frequencies). I have a difficult time explaining it, but in Romania we do have a couple of these commuter tram lines, and they also exist in places like the US (e.g. the DART line). At least that is IMO the trend of the day...


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Two lines have been projected/proposed for Tenerife, and at least one of them (tren del sur) is envisaged to be 80 km long (Santa Cruz de Tenerife - Adeje). That is certainly not a metro or a light rail, it will have full railway features.

Of course its length is not comparable to those of other lines in mainland Spain, and it will have a clear suburban/commuter rail character. But being 80 km long, it can't by no means be considered a metro or intracity railway, it will be a line connecting the island's biggest city (Santa Cruz de Tenerife) to other towns, beach resorts and the airport.


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## Gusiluz

*TV-2 train Vertebrate in Las Palmas*

TV-2 train Vertebrate Alexander Goicoechea (creator of the Talgo train):


Vía Libre





Unfortunately the website "Sobre trenes, tranvías y modelismo ferroviario en Canarias" does not exist, which is a shame because he had many photos and videos. I retain only this:



> El 26 de junio de 1974 se inaugura oficialmente la circulación experimental del Tren Vertebrado TV-2 desarrollado por la Sociedad Anónima de Trenes Vertebrados bajo la dirección técnica de Alejandro Goicoechea (creador del tren TALGO).
> El proyecto en Las Palmas de Gran Canaria fue gestionado por la empresa Inmobiliaria Transeuropea SA, cuyo objetivo final era implantar este sistema ferroviario para conectar la capital de la Isla con el aeropuerto de Gando y la zona turística del Sur (Maspalomas). Aunque, lamentablemente, las pruebas no ofrecieron resultados positivos y el proyecto fue desechado.
> El diseño del trazado en la ciudad de Las Palmas, donde se instaló el tramo experimental de 1,5 Km., fue realizado en vía única y su prolongación preveía construir los cruces en pequeñas vías dobles ubicadas en las paradas, ejecutando una doble vía en el recorrido interurbano hasta el sur de la Isla. La estructura elevada del trazado experimental estaba en la Avenida Marítima y comenzaba frente a la calle Juan XXIII.
> Las obras para la instalación de la estructura elevada (vigas y pilares) comenzaron en 1972 y se prolongaron demasiado tiempo. Además, el retraso en la llegada de los módulos del tren obligaron a los promotores a solicitar varias peticiones de prórroga del permiso que les facultaba para seguir utilizando la Avenida Marítima en la demostración.
> El 25 de mayo de 1974 llegaron a la Isla, en el barco Monte Berretin, los módulos que compondrían el Tren Vertebrado TV-2. Estando compuesto por un total de seis segmentos: dos extremos con cabina de conducción y cuatro módulos intermedios de aproximadamente 2,5 metros de longitud. Cada uno de los elementos disponía de ocho asientos.
> El 13 de junio los ingenieros del proyecto, Jesús Carballedo del Valle y Delfín Rodríguez Villanueva, terminan los preparativos iniciales y dan comienzo a las primeras pruebas, aprovechando la ocasión para explicar a los medios de comunicación las características de este sistema ferroviario: el Tren Vertebrado TV-2 había sido construido por Siemens, todas las ruedas eran motoras y cada una llevaba su propio motor con un rendimiento de 32 Kilowatios y un peso de 90 Kg. funcionando con un "chopper" de la propia casa Siemens.
> Los frenos eran de disco, como los de los automóviles, y alcanzaba una velocidad máxima de 180 Km/h. Los motores iban montados eléctricamente en serie formando grupos de tres con el resto de los grupos en paralelo, de forma que si uno había fallado solo afectaba a los otros dos de su grupo. La suspensión estaba construida mediante un sistema neumático con regulación de carga.
> La primera prueba oficial se desarrolló en presencia del ingeniero promotor del proyecto, Alejandro Goicoechea, y del Director General de Transportes Terrestres el día 26 de junio, utilizando un grupo electrógeno portátil que obligó a que la circulación del Tren Vertebrado se realizara a muy poca velocidad. En pruebas posteriores ya fue posible mostrar el tren transitando según lo previsto.
> 
> Aprovechando la experiencia de Las Palmas, Goicoechea intentó implantar un Tren Vertebrado en la isla de Tenerife para cubrir el trayecto desde el centro de Santa Cruz a la playa de Las Teresitas. También, a través de los emigrantes canarios, llegó a proponer un modelo mas avanzado (TV-3) para la ciudad de Caracas en Venezuela y ya había realizado propuestas para Madrid-Getafe, Madrid-Barajas, Reus-Salou, Girona-San Felíu de Guixols o Tarrasa.
> Como las pruebas no convencieron a las autoridades canarias el proyecto fue finalmente desechado, desmantelándose durante los últimos meses de 1975 y los primeros de 1976.
> Independientemente de la viabilidad de este nuevo tren, su implantación en Gran Canaria siempre encontró una importante oposición como consecuencia del lugar elegido para ubicarlo: la Avenida Marítima de Las Palmas de Gran Canaria.
> Las críticas empezaron con las obras, en 1972, insistiendo en la inconveniencia de instalar la infraestructura del Tren Vertebrado en la Avenida Marítima por el fuerte impacto visual que suponían los pilares y vigas de sustentación. Esta oposición provocaba un constante goteo de críticas resaltando cualquier percance o aspecto negativo: cuando se mostro públicamente una película publicitaria la prensa señaló especialmente que el mecanismo de elevación vertical de los carriles para permitir el paso por la puerta no funcionó y se atascó, no se cumplió ninguno de los plazos legales impuestos por la Administración para realizar las pruebas demostrativas, la primera prueba ante el Director General de Transportes Terrestres no pudo ser oficial y el tren circuló a la velocidad "del paso de un hombre" sin que, además, asistieran a la misma ninguna de las autoridades locales o provinciales. Esta oposición se mantuvo hasta el desmantelamiento de las vigas y pilares.


More information (in spanish too):
http://bibwp.ulpgc.es/electra/2014/11/21/el-tren-vertebrado-en-las-palmas-de-gran-canaria/
https://ingenieriaenlared.wordpress...anol-tv-2-del-ingeniero-alejandro-goicoechea/


----------



## Neb81

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Two lines have been projected/proposed for Tenerife, and at least one of them (tren del sur) is envisaged to be 80 km long (Santa Cruz de Tenerife - Adeje). That is certainly not a metro or a light rail, it will have full railway features.
> 
> Of course its length is not comparable to those of other lines in mainland Spain, and it will have a clear suburban/commuter rail character. But being 80 km long, it can't by no means be considered a metro or intracity railway, it will be a line connecting the island's biggest city (Santa Cruz de Tenerife) to other towns, beach resorts and the airport.


Honestly, I don't really see that project getting far. The tram system already connects Santa Cruz and La Laguna, which are really the two main population centres. The resorts on the south side are pretty much self contained (having their own airport and whatnot) so I don't think there would be enough traffic to justify that sort of cost. Personally, I'd rather see more investment in the tram to get L3 built.


----------



## Neb81

> Roquetas de Mar and El Ejido are not exactly simple suburbs of Almeria, the same way Huddersfield or Bradford are not just simple suburbs of Leeds (in a different scale, that is). Actually these two towns have had a rather impressive growth in the last decade. I wonder which will be their population in fifteen years time... :hmm:


Apart from funding, the real problem for the Campo de Dalias is that to get to Almeria city, you have to pass through the coastal mountains around Aguadulce, and then the rail head is on the opposite side of the city centre. It's a massive engineering problem.

El Ejido in particular would benefit rail link though. The town's growth has been explosive, and it's the major centre for the greenhouse industry - there is a lot of freight traffic as well as commuter potential on that route. Not so sure about Roquetas as it's mostly a self-contained touristic town. That said, the whole of the Almeria rail network is a bad joke - where do you start?



> It is indeed. Note that I didn't add Gibraltar (and its airport) to the list, but if I had, the numbers would have been even more telling.
> The Western Costa del Sol between Fuengirola and Algeciras needs rail so badly.


I think again geography here is a problem. The coast is very rugged, and a lot of the tourist towns won't generate much reliable year-round traffic. Gibraltar... IIRC there is actually a disused rail line that comes down to the edge of La Linea, but it'd have to go through a long tunnel under La Linea town to get to Gibraltar, and that will never happen as long as Gibraltar remains disputed. Even if it were settled, Gibraltar's population wouldn't justify that sort of cost. It'd be far easier to just reopen the existing branch with a new inter-modal station on the edge of La Linea town. Using the existing line (reopened and rehabilitated), a cercanias service between La Linea and Algeciras would probably do quite well.



> And Torrevieja too, it should have never lost the railway line it had, it was madness to close it instead of upgrading it.


Yep, since rail was already there, removing it was stupid. Thankfully I think most if not all of the route has been preserved, so re-opening it is feasible, though what kind of service pattern you could develop is questionable, given the classic Alicante-Murcia-Lorca line is congested and in desperate need of improvement, and if the ALC airport rail link happens, that's only going to get worse. The whole Murcia/Vega Baja/Elche/Alicante area needs an integrated approach to rail upgrades that focuses on local traffic rather than obsessing over AVE.


----------



## 437.001

*Canary islands:*



Neb81 said:


> Honestly, I don't really see that project getting far. The tram system already connects Santa Cruz and La Laguna, which are really the two main population centres. The resorts on the south side are pretty much self contained (having their own airport and whatnot) so I don't think there would be enough traffic to justify that sort of cost. Personally, I'd rather see more investment in the tram to get L3 built.


We're not discussing tramways here anyway, but the fact that these resorts are self-contained or not (which aren't, because people work there, and tourists use the airport and move around the island, among other things), has little to do with the possibility of that line being built or not.



*Almeria:*



Neb81 said:


> Apart from funding, the real problem for the Campo de Dalias is that to get to Almeria city, you have to pass through the coastal mountains around Aguadulce, and then the rail head is on the opposite side of the city centre. It's a massive engineering problem.


No it isn't. It's a budget problem, if any. And a problem of no one in the Ministry thinking about it. Or at least, not yet.



Neb81 said:


> El Ejido in particular would benefit rail link though. The town's growth has been explosive, and it's the major centre for the greenhouse industry - there is a lot of freight traffic as well as commuter potential on that route. Not so sure about Roquetas as it's mostly a self-contained touristic town.


Well, having three towns of more than 50,000 inhabitants isn't that bad, in terms of potential patronage, be them self-contained or not.



Neb81 said:


> That said, the whole of the Almeria rail network is a bad joke - where do you start?


In the 19th century.



*Fuengirola-Marbella-La Línea (& Gibraltar)-Algeciras:*



Neb81 said:


> I think again geography here is a problem. The coast is very rugged, and a lot of the tourist towns won't generate much reliable year-round traffic.


Remember that there was always a line between Malaga and Fuengirola, and that that line saw its gauge changed from metric to Iberian to manage better the number of passengers, frequency, et al. This line DOES generate reliable year-round traffic very much indeed. 

Adding more passengers from Mijas, Marbella and Estepona would only increase the patronage, which is already rather high for Spanish standards, believe me. 



Neb81 said:


> Gibraltar... IIRC there is actually a disused rail line that comes down to the edge of La Linea, but it'd have to go through a long tunnel under La Linea town to get to Gibraltar, and that will never happen as long as Gibraltar remains disputed. Even if it were settled, Gibraltar's population wouldn't justify that sort of cost.


There has never been any thought of taking rail to Gibraltar. That would be technically complicated, and with a border in between (and that border being with the UK), things would complicate even more.

But La Linea itself (and a possible bus link to the Gibraltar border point) would be a nice idea. Only that I don't think that building a line from San Roque to La Línea would be of much use, if it were not to be extended further up the coast to Fuengirola. 



Neb81 said:


> It'd be far easier to just reopen the existing branch with a new inter-modal station on the edge of La Linea town. Using the existing line (reopened and rehabilitated), a cercanias service between La Linea and Algeciras would probably do quite well.


That would be not very cost-effective if compared with the bus.



*Torrevieja branch:*



Neb81 said:


> Yep, since rail was already there, removing it was stupid. Thankfully I think most if not all of the route has been preserved, so re-opening it is feasible,


Not so fast. There seem to be serious environmental issues for the reopening of the old line as it was (birds and a natural park). This complicates things.



Neb81 said:


> though what kind of service pattern you could develop is questionable, given the classic Alicante-Murcia-Lorca line is congested and in desperate need of improvement, and if the ALC airport rail link happens, that's only going to get worse.


If the environmental issues were to be addressed in one way or another, the service pattern would be quite clear... if there was the right amount of rolling stock available.

Forget about the Alicante-Murcia line being congested. 
It won't be by the day the Torrevieja branch would be reopened, not even if a connection to El Altet airport gets built.
Murcia-Lorca has never been congested btw.



Neb81 said:


> The whole Murcia/Vega Baja/Elche/Alicante area needs an integrated approach to rail upgrades that focuses on local traffic rather than obsessing over AVE.


Integral approach? When you're not Madrid or Barcelona or even one of the historical big-name provinces, you don't exist, basically.
The last thing you can ask the Ministry for is "integral approach". You'd be laughed at.

And keep in mind that investment in rail development in Madrid and Barcelona is poor enough.


----------



## krisu99

A short video about the Tren Vertebrado on its 1,5km long line in the Canarias:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSUIqax8bg0


----------



## Suburbanist

This "Tren Vertebrado" is one of the most bizarre designs I've ever seen. Did they have switches and how switches operated? Or was it supposed to operate only in a loop?


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## alserrod

On July 18th, 1928, Spanish king Alfonso XIII and French president Gaston de Doumergue were on Canfranc in the international tunnel opening to traffic


----------



## Neb81

437.001 said:


> No it isn't. It's a budget problem, if any. And a problem of no one in the Ministry thinking about it. Or at least, not yet.


The two go hand in hand. Any rail link running west from Almeria is going to next a huge amount of tunelling and the complete redevelopment of Almeria station. That's a lot of engineering, and therefore a lot of money for the sake of adding one or two towns onto the end of slow and lightly used classic line. There are other potential rail projects in Almeria that could give much stronger cost/benefit performance.




> Only that I don't think that building a line from San Roque to La Línea would be of much use, if it were not to be extended further up the coast to Fuengirola.
> 
> That would be not very cost-effective if compared with the bus.


A line to La Linea already exists, it is just not currently in use. The cost of re-opening it would be negligible compared to new-build. It currently ends near a large commercial centre, with a lot of empty land around it for an interchange. This could be done on a tight budget as a light-weight system (but under the Cercanias brand/system) using something like the PPM vehicles - so no electrification, and only short pre-fabricated platforms for basic halts. If the service proves popular, it can be improved as demand dictates.




> Forget about the Alicante-Murcia line being congested.
> It won't be by the day the Torrevieja branch would be reopened, not even if a connection to El Altet airport gets built.
> Murcia-Lorca has never been congested btw.


IIRC, the Murcia-Alicante classic line is single track, non-electrified. Hourly service on the Cercanias, plus MD and Talgo services. If an airport line opens, that will probably need at least a half-hourly service - probably running Alicante-Airport-Elche, reversing at the airport halt. That doesn't leave a great deal of room for anything much beyond a basic hourly service for Torrevieja, unless the Murcia-Alicante line gets what it really needs and is double-tracked and electrified to improve the main cercanias service.

Alicante-Elche-Murcia really needs at least a half-hourly service, and and could easily support an additional hourly express service running through to Cartagena and/or Lorca. Torrevieja could use either hourly or half hourly (seasonal) to Alicante via Airport, and an hourly service to Murcia via Orihuela - though maintaining a simple hourly frequency to Alicante/airport would mean the Torre branch could be single track with a basic curve junction rather than a triangle. Given all the residential construction around the old alignment, I think the ecological concerns are probably surmountable, but wether or not that could cause more problems with noise is another issue. 



> Integral approach? When you're not Madrid or Barcelona or even one of the historical big-name provinces, you don't exist, basically.
> The last thing you can ask the Ministry for is "integral approach". You'd be laughed at.


Historically, yes, and it's one thing that needs to change, and with de-centralisation has potential to do so. If the Murcian and Alicante/Valencian governments can form a regional transport authority for the Alicante-Murcia-Cartagena triangle, they could lobby Madrid collectively for action. 

In the end, it's a win-win situation. The Alicante-Murcia route is profitable to RENFE, and the EU is getting fed-up with their regional development funds going to white elephant projects. Investment in a high-demand, profitable route to improve ridership and bring social and employment benefits to the area is an all-round winner, especially if it has potential for further development in the long-term - which definitely exists (i.e. Murcia-Cartagena rail improvements, integration of FEVE services etc.)



> And keep in mind that investment in rail development in Madrid and Barcelona is poor enough.


I think it's symptomatic of the larger problem, that the AVE network is essentially cannibalizing funds from the classic system, even though the Cercanias services carry far more passengers than AVE, and the AVE relies on good local rail service to feed passengers to and from AVE terminals. I think the AVE does need investment, but right now rail projects in Spain are unbalanced, and it hurts the whole network, AVE included.


----------



## Suburbanist

I wonder if Spanish regional authorities should create some "new towns" near high-speed lines, building stations in the middle of nowhere on already existing lines, and then opening up for dense development around them.


----------



## Bitxofo

Suburbanist said:


> I wonder if Spanish regional authorities should create some "new towns" near high-speed lines, building stations in the middle of nowhere on already existing lines, and then opening up for dense development around them.


You must be joking...
We are still in crisis. There are abandoned new cities like Seseña, Valdeluz or others:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lt-boom-years-unemployment-tops-5million.html

http://verne.elpais.com/verne/2015/02/23/articulo/1424700957_297346.html


----------



## alserrod

The "exact" location of Guadalajara-Yebes is not randomly chosen indeed.... and few houses have been built since then


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## 437.001

*Almeria:*



Neb81 said:


> The two go hand in hand. Any rail link running west from Almeria is going to next a huge amount of tunelling and the complete redevelopment of Almeria station. That's a lot of engineering, and therefore a lot of money for the sake of adding one or two towns onto the end of slow and lightly used classic line. There are other potential rail projects in Almeria that could give much stronger cost/benefit performance.


I was not speaking about any deadline at all, or of any mode of rail service at all. Currently there are no plans to take rail there.

So it's likely that the day those plans actually started, Almeria would then be enjoying a much improved rail service after the opening of Pulpi-Almeria.

This would put taking the rail to Roquetas de Mar and El Ejido in a totally different perspective. 

And then, only then, maybe some plan could take shape... or not.



*(Malaga-)Fuengirola-Marbella-Estepona-La Línea/Gibraltar-Algeciras:*



Neb81 said:


> A line to La Linea already exists, it is just not currently in use. The cost of re-opening it would be negligible compared to new-build. It currently ends near a large commercial centre, with a lot of empty land around it for an interchange. This could be done on a tight budget as a light-weight system (but under the Cercanias brand/system) using something like the PPM vehicles - so no electrification, and only short pre-fabricated platforms for basic halts. If the service proves popular, it can be improved as demand dictates.


Won't be the case any time soon at all. The only plan (which is only at the very earliest stages) is to take rail from Fuengirola to Marbella, and then maybe someday Estepona, and then only maybe even La Linea and Algeciras.



*Murcia/Alicante (& Torrevieja, Cartagena, et al):*



Neb81 said:


> IIRC, the Murcia-Alicante classic line is single track, non-electrified. Hourly service on the Cercanias, plus MD and Talgo services. If an airport line opens, that will probably need at least a half-hourly service - probably running Alicante-Airport-Elche, reversing at the airport halt. That doesn't leave a great deal of room for anything much beyond a basic hourly service for Torrevieja, unless the Murcia-Alicante line gets what it really needs and is double-tracked and electrified to improve the main cercanias service.
> 
> Alicante-Elche-Murcia really needs at least a half-hourly service, and and could easily support an additional hourly express service running through to Cartagena and/or Lorca.


Well... things have changed a bit, haven't they?

Currently, Orihuela station has already been put underground, and the line, from a point between San Isidro-Albatera-Catral and Crevillente stations (where the pure HSL to Madrid will end) till Murcia is being upgraded as part of the HSL Project, which includes double-tracking and seemingly gauge change.

The missing section between San Isidro and Alicante through Elche-Parque and San Gabriel will be left untouched, although perhaps it could have the gauge changed, too. 

The plans for a new access to the airport (which would be a through line anyway, implying the closure of the current line through San Gabriel) have been put on hold. 

Besides, service already is half-hourly at the peaks.



Neb81 said:


> Torrevieja could use either hourly or half hourly (seasonal) to Alicante via Airport, and an hourly service to Murcia via Orihuela - though maintaining a simple hourly frequency to Alicante/airport would mean the Torre branch could be single track with a basic curve junction rather than a triangle. Given all the residential construction around the old alignment, I think the ecological concerns are probably surmountable, but wether or not that could cause more problems with noise is another issue.


Sit and wait, then. Like 20 years or so, at least.



Neb81 said:


> Historically, yes, and it's one thing that needs to change, and with de-centralisation has potential to do so. If the Murcian and Alicante/Valencian governments can form a regional transport authority for the Alicante-Murcia-Cartagena triangle, they could lobby Madrid collectively for action.
> 
> In the end, it's a win-win situation. The Alicante-Murcia route is profitable to RENFE, [...]


Isn't. And won't ever be unless properly tolled (which would mean losing passengers anyway, so it's a vicious circle).



Neb81 said:


> [...] and the EU is getting fed-up with their regional development funds going to white elephant projects. Investment in a high-demand, profitable route to improve ridership and bring social and employment benefits to the area is an all-round winner, especially if it has potential for further development in the long-term - which definitely exists (i.e. Murcia-Cartagena rail improvements, integration of FEVE services etc.)


Murcia-Cartagena will be electrified more or less soon, but just for HSR services.
There are no plans whatsoever to develop regional or commuter rail there, only press articles... sometimes.



*Overview:*



Neb81 said:


> I think it's symptomatic of the larger problem, that the AVE network is essentially cannibalizing funds from the classic system, even though the Cercanias services carry far more passengers than AVE, and the AVE relies on good local rail service to feed passengers to and from AVE terminals. I think the AVE does need investment, but right now rail projects in Spain are unbalanced, and it hurts the whole network, AVE included.


Not if you think about how much subventioned regional and commuter rail are.

AVE/LD is profitable and doesn't get subventions. The only rail service in Spain that is profitable and gets no subventions. Every other rail service in the country isn't even though it is subventioned.

And when you think about roads in Spain (and that buses are good too, and all private), and just how little rail-friendly Spain is... no, I don't think there will be many major classic rail improvements for regional or commuter rail, even less outside Barcelona or Madrid.
The Minister even said "nothing until 2024 at least". 

Which could imply some closures too.

I even read some engineer say that only HSR should be kept, the rest being best replaced by buses.

Large parts of Spain get subventioned public regional railway service that can't ever be profitable because those areas are largely unpopulated.

Other parts of Spain, which are much more populated, get a bad or no regional or commuter rail service, but in most cases it is unwanted in the town centres (unless it is put underground, and sometimes not even that). There are serious cases of nimby-ism, which have flourished very recently but are unlikely to disappear. 

In my area for instance, three to five town-centre stations will be closed and relocated outside the towns, in an area totalling a permanent population of over 70,000 inhabitants and LOADS more tourists, thus, the area will see regional railway greatly worsened.
Why? Majors, neighbours, the regional government, the Ministry (and bus companies), and even the environmentalists, don't want to keep these stations, since they make Long Distance trains slower, trains run through the inside of the towns, murdering pedestrians (it is said that sometimes trains even leave the tracks to blood-thirstily hunt and shred some unaware local gran or even a Belgian teenager), private bus companies make less money than they could, and besides there is a new free motorway ready to take the loss of regional rail passengers. They even refuse to put underground a part of the line.

In other words: you want (long-distance) railway, then you pay for it (and you get a top AVE or similar). You can't pay (or you want regional rail or even commuter rail), then you better go get a bus.


----------



## Neb81

Suburbanist said:


> I wonder if Spanish regional authorities should create some "new towns" near high-speed lines, building stations in the middle of nowhere on already existing lines, and then opening up for dense development around them.


Given the current housing glut, I can't see it happening in the short-term. In the longer term, since housing in Spain is usually dense anyway (even by European standards) then I imagine something like this will happen eventually. The Ciudad Real airport scheme actually involved something vaguely along these lines. It was originally going to have an AVE station and a very large business/industrial park (and I believe, eventually, housing) surrounding it.


----------



## Neb81

437.001 said:


> *Almeria:*
> 
> Not if you think about how much subventioned regional and commuter rail are.
> 
> AVE/LD is profitable and doesn't get subventions. The only rail service in Spain that is profitable and gets no subventions. Every other rail service in the country isn't even though it is subventioned.


I'm not so sure about that. The profitability of AVE is largely an accounting fiction, as ADIF-AV has tens of billions of debt from LAV construction, which doesn't show up on RENFEs AVE balance sheets. More problematic is that ADIF-AV also has massive *operational* losses. Track fees for the LAV lines only cover about 50% of operational costs. At the end of the day, AVE services are actually a bigger financial drain that classic services which can share already existing infrastructure with a wide array of services (cercanias, MD, long distance, freight, alvia etc.), which have become underfunded to the point of danger. 

In addition, quite separately from the issue of subsidies (which are a sensible economic tool if the service provides wider socio-economic benefits to the region) is that of comparative cost-benefit analysis that takes into account both those wider benefits (i.e. access to employment, education etc.), as well as the opportunity costs (i.e. lost investment in regional/commuter rail and loss of any benefits it would have brought).

Finally there is the issue that the classic service is a self-inflicted subsidy black hole. The classic line timetables and connections have been left mostly unchanged despite changing ridership, where even simple changes could encourage far greater use, and thus actually save money by generating more revenue. At the same time, investing in light-weight railbus type rolling-stock on low-traffic routes (i.e. Lorca-Aguilas, Xativa-Alcoi) to replace heavy DMUs would cut operational costs significantly for both Renfe and ADIF - and is a cheap way to free up more valuable heavier rolling stock. 



> And when you think about roads in Spain (and that buses are good too, and all private), and just how little rail-friendly Spain is... no, I don't think there will be many major classic rail improvements for regional or commuter rail, even less outside Barcelona or Madrid.
> The Minister even said "nothing until 2024 at least".
> 
> Which could imply some closures too.
> 
> I even read some engineer say that only HSR should be kept, the rest being best replaced by buses.


I'm not suggesting there will be classic investment. Actually I suspect the government is focused to the point of obsession on AVE. Rather, I wanted to highlight that the current policy toward rail is unbalanced, short-sighted, and ultimately self-defeating to the extent that even the auditors are getting concerned about the financial vulnerability and opportunity costs of the AVE. I'm also saddened that a lot of investment has been made, but that the population hasn't received much "bang for their buck". In a time of high unemployment, investment in local rail links would have brought much greater benefits in areas suffering most, for much lower cost.




> In my area for instance, three to five town-centre stations will be closed and relocated outside the towns, in an area totalling a permanent population of over 70,000 inhabitants and LOADS more tourists, thus, the area will see regional railway greatly worsened.
> Why? Majors, neighbours, the regional government, the Ministry (and bus companies), and even the environmentalists, don't want to keep these stations, since they make Long Distance trains slower, trains run through the inside of the towns, murdering pedestrians (it is said that sometimes trains even leave the tracks to blood-thirstily hunt and shred some unaware local gran or even a Belgian teenager), private bus companies make less money than they could, and besides there is a new free motorway ready to take the loss of regional rail passengers. They even refuse to put underground a part of the line.


lol that really made me laugh! But yeah, I've seen that kind of mentality as well! But then with local rail service as bad as it is, it is understandable. Would I really want the noise and grime of 30 year old heavy 4-car DMUs running past my home if the service was so infrequent / badly timed as to be useless? Gods, no - but if it were modern, light-weight/quiet trains running frequently enough to be useful for getting to work/uni/whatever, I might be convinced it'd be worth it.



> In other words: you want (long-distance) railway, then you pay for it (and you get a top AVE or similar). You can't pay (or you want regional rail or even commuter rail), then you better go get a bus.


Yeah, sadly I think that'd the mentality. Yay for traffic pollution! (and in 10 years time... autovias become parking lots that occasionally move)


----------



## Gusiluz

*ADIF-HS, Court of Auditors, access charges coverage*

^^ It seems that you have read the media, and that's what they say, based on reports from a highway concessionaire and what it says about a Court of Auditors. But you have to go to the sources, and the Court of Auditors says:



> If you delete this analysis the effect of the amortization and financial costs, the coverage would have amply exceeded 100% in all lines except Madrid-Valladolid and Madrid-Levante, with a degree of coverage 54% and 89%, respectively; and the difference between the Madrid-Seville and Madrid-Barcelona line is reduced significantly, introducing the first 193% coverage and 158% second. (page 36)


Madrid-Valladolid has 20% of tunnels, and simply without it would not exist (or lose a lot of money) the _Alvia_ trains throughout all the Spanish northwest.

ADIF-HS access charges joined by 396.16 M € in 2013 (page 28) including stations and others, their total expenditures less amortizations were 270.707 M € and income from access charges (without stations) were 334.088 M € (page 72), which is a *access charges over all expenditures less amortizations coverage of 123%*.

The breakdown by lines is on page 74; these are the accounts:

Maintenance, traffic and safety costs / Access charges / Coverage:
Sevilla / 45.902 / 91.819 / 200%
Toledo / 2.458 / 4.042 / 164%
Barcelona / 89.799 / 146.792 / 163%
Malaga / 24.009 / 29.836 / 124%
Valencia and Alicante/ 57.319 / 52.983 / 92%
Valladolid / 28.325 / 15.730 / 56%
Total: / 270.707 / 334.088 / 123%

Instead, coverage of access charges on the conventional network is not suitable for sensitive people. Better not read it.

Moreover, there is a report of the French Court of Auditors with a picture of the performance of LGVs on your page 95, I do not know what they have in mind those results.

In Spain we have a saying for this, but as I do not have a sufficient level of English to translate it, I keep it.


----------



## 437.001

^^
I'd really trust Gusiluz. He is an insider, and although his English isn't top notch, you do want to pay attention to what he says. 



Gusiluz said:


> Maintenance, traffic and safety costs / Access charges / Coverage:
> Sevilla / 45.902 / 91.819 / 200%
> Toledo / 2.458 / 4.042 / 164%
> Barcelona / 89.799 / 146.792 / 163%
> Malaga / 24.009 / 29.836 / 124%
> Levante / 57.319 / 52.983 / 92%
> Valladolid / 28.325 / 15.730 / 56%
> Total: / 270.707 / 334.088 / 123%
> 
> Instead, coverage of access charges on the conventional network is not suitable for sensitive people. Better not read it.


^^
Note: the "Levante" HSL is the Valencia + Alicante one (to be expanded from Alicante to Murcia, later Lorca and Almeria, and also from Valencia to Alicante).

In addition, I wouldn't forget that the one Spanish HSL that doesn't cover costs is the Valladolid one, that is, the one _that's going to be expanded the most_ (ie, improvement of travel times and increase of passengers in the years to come).

And yes, as Gusiluz says, most of the classic lines have bad or very bad situations when it comes to covering costs.

This is largely due to geographical and demographical reasons.

Sometimes, seen from the outside, Spain might seem quite simple to understand. It isn't, at all. 




Neb81 said:


> I'm not so sure about that. The profitability of AVE is largely an accounting fiction, as ADIF-AV has tens of billions of debt from LAV construction, which doesn't show up on RENFEs AVE balance sheets. More problematic is that ADIF-AV also has massive *operational* losses. Track fees for the LAV lines only cover about 50% of operational costs.


As you can see, Gusiluz just showed how inaccurate that is.



Neb81 said:


> At the end of the day, AVE services are actually a bigger financial drain that classic services which can share already existing infrastructure with a wide array of services (cercanias, MD, long distance, freight, alvia etc.), which have become underfunded to the point of danger.


What many people fail to see is that they would be even more in danger had the HSR not been developed... 

Many of these lines run across empty, unpopulated countryside, and many stations are far away from any half-sizeable town or village.



Neb81 said:


> In addition, quite separately from the issue of subsidies (which are a sensible economic tool if the service provides wider socio-economic benefits to the region) is that of comparative cost-benefit analysis that takes into account both those wider benefits (i.e. access to employment, education etc.), as well as the opportunity costs (i.e. lost investment in regional/commuter rail and loss of any benefits it would have brought).
> 
> Finally there is the issue that the classic service is a self-inflicted subsidy black hole. The classic line timetables and connections have been left mostly unchanged despite changing ridership, where even simple changes could encourage far greater use, and thus actually save money by generating more revenue. At the same time, investing in light-weight railbus type rolling-stock on low-traffic routes (i.e. Lorca-Aguilas, Xativa-Alcoi) to replace heavy DMUs would cut operational costs significantly for both Renfe and ADIF - and is a cheap way to free up more valuable heavier rolling stock.


Lorca-Aguilas and Xativa-Alcoy are not exactly the two best cases to explain how a classic line could attract more new passengers by being connected to a HSL.

Lorca-Aguilas, because more than half of that line will be upgraded to HSL standards, leaving only the short spur between Pulpi and Aguilas, which will greatly benefit of the upgrade and will also see long distance services, hence I strongly suspect that EMUs will still be needed (because it will very likely be electrified). 

Xativa-Alcoy is quite a different animal. That line is in terrible state. Loads should be invested to upgrade it. If the line isn't closed in the meantime, parts of it, if (heavily) upgraded, could be electrified in the mid to long term and join the Cercanías Valencia network.



Neb81 said:


> I'm not suggesting there will be classic investment. Actually I suspect the government is focused to the point of obsession on AVE. Rather, I wanted to highlight that the current policy toward rail is unbalanced, short-sighted, and ultimately self-defeating to the extent that even the auditors are getting concerned about the financial vulnerability and opportunity costs of the AVE. I'm also saddened that a lot of investment has been made, but that the population hasn't received much "bang for their buck". In a time of high unemployment, investment in local rail links would have brought much greater benefits in areas suffering most, for much lower cost.


Or would they? Most of the local rail needs are already covered, and those that aren't would need massive investments (be it upgrades, or reconstructions/reopenings, or entirely new lines), to the point of one wondering about its priority in opposition to long-distance services.



Neb81 said:


> lol that really made me laugh! But yeah, I've seen that kind of mentality as well! But then with local rail service as bad as it is, it is understandable. Would I really want the noise and grime of 30 year old heavy 4-car DMUs running past my home if the service was so infrequent / badly timed as to be useless? Gods, no - but if it were modern, light-weight/quiet trains running frequently enough to be useful for getting to work/uni/whatever, I might be convinced it'd be worth it.


Actually the passenger trains are not noisy, even the 30 year-old ones.
It's the freight trains that are annoying, to a degree.

But they do have fangs, neighbours say so. :troll:



Neb81 said:


> Yeah, sadly I think that'd the mentality. Yay for traffic pollution! (and in 10 years time... autovias become parking lots that occasionally move)


Actually some of them are even opposed to new motorways. They are that NIMBY.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Thanks for the praise, but you do not you believe me, just read (and translate better than me) to the Court of Auditors (page 36).



> Si se elimina de este análisis el efecto de los costes de amortización y de los financieros, el grado de cobertura habría superado sobradamente el 100% en todas las líneas excepto Madrid-Valladolid y Madrid-Levante, con un grado de cobertura del 54% y el 89%, respectivamente; y la diferencia entre la línea Madrid-Sevilla y Madrid-Barcelona se reduciría sensiblemente, presentando la primera una cobertura del 193% y la segunda del 158%.


Then there is the realization that we are in a situation similar to the French case, by his Court of Auditors (page 95).


----------



## krisu99

To my knowledge, the only High Spee Railway line that has repaid its construction and operational costs so far is Paris-Lyon.

Some other lines may follow, some others may never repay them selves.


If access charges would have to include construction and capital costs, I think not one High Speed ticket could be sold.

Building a high speed infrastructure is therefore mostly a political decision, in the hope that such an infrastructure brings benefits to the "whole". 

Sometime those benefits can be expressed with a sort of "overall Return of Investment" which also include external benefits in favor of economical growth of the region the line serves or benefits for the development of HSR industry of the country etc. Such calculations are usually carried out prior to planning, and are usually positive giving a R.O.I in the range of 2...10%.
However, those studies are to a high degree fictional as the outcome depends on who commissions the study. In fact, too many variables can be considered at free will and in too many different perspectives. For examples, if assumed reductions of road accidents or pollution are introduced into HSR ROI calcluations, solidity of the outcome is likely to resemble a 30 day weather forecast.

Sometimes such deliberate external ROI calculations serve to justify a more critical political decision of the kind "Because region X has got HSR then my region Y has also the "right" to get HSR connection (to Madrid)". 
This kind of reasoning can be rather bad from the financial perspective, as it drains funds that otherwise could be invested in more fruitful ways. 


Thus, in my opinion, the Spanish case is not unique by the fact that the infrastructure provider has accumulated construction debts. RFF in France is the public entity that finances new high speed lines and can issue bonds guaranteed by the state (RFF would be bankrupt otherwise). In other countries like Germany there is no special entity because the state or regions directly cover most of the construction costs.

If access charges cover operational charges entirely, then the surplus can be used to feed capital costs resulting from HSR construction. If for example access charges on Madrid-BCN cover 163% of operational costs (c.f. table from Gusiluz above) then this is good. However, we have no information if the 63% surplus are enough to cover capital costs induced by construction of the line.

This fact is not unique to Spain at all, as mentioned RFF for example is also a black hole with its high debt resulting from infrastructure maintenance and HSR construction (33.7 billion € in 2013, which is about three times the debt of ADIF in the same year).

However, and that is the main difference between Spain and other European countries: No one has built such an extensive high speed network (ins such a short time-frame). 

Thus, when compared to other countries, the "black hole" of the infrastructure provider is likely to be....considerable.

Now, when researching the numbers, one comes across that ADIF debt is "only" 11.8 billion of € in 2013. But the HSR network must have cost a many times more, around 40 billion € plus 12 billion € what is under construction now (I don't expect much ROI so far). This seems interesting.

Sources (amongst others):
* OECD Economic Surveys SPAIN SEPTEMBER 2014
http://www.oecd.org/eco/surveys/Spain-Overview-2014.pdf
* LGV EN SERVICE MODES DE FINANCEMENT RENTABILITE BILANS ANTE ET POST 
http://www.voiesnouvellestgv.webou.net/document/2013/bilanrentabilitegpso.pdf


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ In a report, even in the Court of Auditors, taking into account European aid for the construction of these HSL: up to now 50% of the investment.
According the Court of Auditors (page 36) the only HSL whose access charges even cover amortization and financial costs is Madrid-Sevilla (124%), if you take into account European aid, the less dependence on oil ... accounts would other.

The excessive length of the HSL has to do with the different gauge, precisely such European aid conditional decision. The European Union could have subsidized the construction of standard gauge lines for exporting goods and resolving bottlenecks (Despeñaperros-Sevilla / Guadarrama-Valladolid) with Iberian gauge, but he did not.
The total HSL investment until 2013 is on page 76.

And yes, always the most important decisions are made by politicians. So it goes.


----------



## Nexis

*Freight train stops at railroad crossing! Gates are down for 40 minutes!*


----------



## Robi_damian

Nexis said:


> *Freight train stops at railroad crossing! Gates are down for 40 minutes!*


Even without this happening, in Europe (and Australia, for that matter) gates are down quite some time before the train passes. I am always shocked at how in the US crossing are lowered as little as 15 seconds before the train passes by.


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## hammersklavier

Robi_damian said:


> Even without this happening, in Europe (and Australia, for that matter) gates are down quite some time before the train passes. I am always shocked at how in the US crossing are lowered as little as 15 seconds before the train passes by.


I noticed in the Railroad Crossings thread that there is quite a lot of variance on how long before the train passes gates are lowered. In France you only have to wait a few seconds from when the gate lowers to when the train comes through; in Italy the gate comes down and you just sit there and sit there and sit there ...

There's a tough balance to be made between convenience and safety. But IMO if you have to wait for more than a minute between when the gates first drop and the train comes you're making it more likely somebody impatient will try to run the gates. Whereas with short times trying to run them is basically suicidal.


----------



## entfe001

Nexis said:


> *Freight train stops at railroad crossing! Gates are down for 40 minutes!*


I'll try to explain this.

First, as a general approach, level crossings in Spain are programmed very conservatively: barriers must be fully lowered with enough anticipation to allow a train to stop before reaching it. For this purpose there's a specific signal which tells the driver if the level crossing is properly closed for road traffic. As the train must be able to stop between this signal and the level crossing it refers to, it usually is quite far away, about 1,5km. So, when the barriers are down, the incoming train still has to run this distance to the actual level crossing.

This explains the long delay until the first train arrives, and unfortunately as many people here know that there's plenty of time before the train arrives, they cross the tracks even with the red lights and alarm sounds.

Then, this particular case looks like Salou, a station with 3 tracks on a heavily used single-tracked line (Barcelona - Valencia main line). At 5:25 the freight train arrives and stops waiting for three trains coming on the opposite direction, which arrive at 8:57, 16:19 and 20:25. The first train continues, as it runs through the same track as the first, but probably the second and third wait for yet another train. At 20:50 the freight train resumes, and at 31:25 runs another train for the same track and direction. Off screen, most surely the train which arrived at 20:25 leaves, and then does the one from timestamp 16:19 (because the 20:25 is faster and calls at less stations). Finally, when the track circuit is freed after the 16:19 train leaves, the barriers open.

So, as a summary:

05:25 → freight train, stops at the farthest track
08:57 ← LD train, continues further through nearest track
16:19 ← MD train, stops at nearest track
20:25 ← LD train, stops at center track (all tracks occupied)
20:50 → freight train leaves
31:25 → MD train, runs along the track freed by the freight train 10 minutes ago
Around 33:00 ← LD train from center track leaves
Around 38:00 ← MD train from nearest track leaves
39:34 = once all tracks are cleared, the barriers open


----------



## hammersklavier

entfe001 said:


> I'll try to explain this.
> 
> First, as a general approach, level crossings in Spain are programmed very conservatively: barriers must be fully lowered with enough anticipation to allow a train to stop before reaching it. For this purpose there's a specific signal which tells the driver if the level crossing is properly closed for road traffic. As the train must be able to stop between this signal and the level crossing it refers to, it usually is quite far away, about 1,5km. So, when the barriers are down, the incoming train still has to run this distance to the actual level crossing.
> 
> This explains the long delay until the first train arrives, and unfortunately as many people here know that there's plenty of time before the train arrives, they cross the tracks even with the red lights and alarm sounds.
> 
> Then, this particular case looks like Salou, a station with 3 tracks on a heavily used single-tracked line (Barcelona - Valencia main line). At 5:25 the freight train arrives and stops waiting for three trains coming on the opposite direction, which arrive at 8:57, 16:19 and 20:25. The first train continues, as it runs through the same track as the first, but probably the second and third wait for yet another train. At 20:50 the freight train resumes, and at 31:25 runs another train for the same track and direction. Off screen, most surely the train which arrived at 20:25 leaves, and then does the one from timestamp 16:19 (because the 20:25 is faster and calls at less stations). Finally, when the track circuit is freed after the 16:19 train leaves, the barriers open.
> 
> So, as a summary:
> 
> 05:25 → freight train, stops at the farthest track
> 08:57 ← LD train, continues further through nearest track
> 16:19 ← MD train, stops at nearest track
> 20:25 ← LD train, stops at center track (all tracks occupied)
> 20:50 → freight train leaves
> 31:25 → MD train, runs along the track freed by the freight train 10 minutes ago
> Around 33:00 ← LD train from center track leaves
> Around 38:00 ← MD train from nearest track leaves
> 39:34 = once all tracks are cleared, the barriers open


It might be explicable, but it's just stupid. First of all, all of these trains are fouling a public ROW for extended periods of time which does _wonders_ for safety.

Second of all, if you work out the RR x'ing requirements you find that the freight has to trudge along at 16 kph for the 1.5 km between where it triggers the gate and where the gate actually, uh, is. It's no wonder that foot traffic ignores it for the first four minutes or so ... thereby completely subverting the safety the gate should provide.


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## Robi_damian

entfe001 said:


> Then, this particular case looks like Salou, a station with 3 tracks on a heavily used single-tracked line (Barcelona - Valencia main line).


Wait, what? Barcelona-Valencia is not entirely douvled? Man, does Spain have some weird rail funding priorities...


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## wornaki

Robi_damian said:


> Wait, what? Barcelona-Valencia is not entirely douvled? Man, does Spain have some weird rail funding priorities...


Mediterranean corridor hasn't really been much of a priority, owing mainly to the fact that it doesn't have that much importance, even when Valencia and Catalonia have some similar demographic backgrounds. Even then, HS rail is coming... albeit at a slow pace.


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## alserrod

Robi_damian said:


> Wait, what? Barcelona-Valencia is not entirely douvled? Man, does Spain have some weird rail funding priorities...


There are several kilometres in the south of Tarragona that remains one track and new route under construction since two decades.
These months we have had a lot of movemwent there (polls arriving) and several forumers have spotted it


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## 437.001

Robi_damian said:


> Wait, what? Barcelona-Valencia is not entirely doubled?


Not yet. But by the end of the year it will be double-tracked (well, excepting some 500 m, but that's another story).

Keep in mind that the Barcelona-Madrid classic main line has never been fully double-tracked, and very probably will never be.
The same applies to the Madrid-Seville, Madrid-Valencia, Madrid-Alicante, Madrid-Malaga, Madrid-Galicia, Madrid-Asturias, Barcelona-Bilbao... none of them are. 
The only classic main line that ever came to be fully double-tracked is the Madrid-Irun/Hendaye one.

...and you thought Romanian railways were _that_ bad? et: :lol: 



Robi_damian said:


> Man, Spain does have some weird rail funding priorities...


In the 19th century, Spain developed much more the Cuban railway network than the Iberian one.
But Cuba became independent in 1898.  The resulting mess was... well, a mess. icard: We still haven't recovered.

If the 20th century was bad enough for Romania or Germany, among others, it was just AWFUL for Spain. Rail-wise too, needless to say.

When Cuba became independent, a number of the basic lines in Mainland Spain had not even started construction!!
The consequent economic turmoil forced Spain to build cheap, and that was terrible, as Spain is so mountainous.
Some lines that would have become crucial had they been built in the mid-19th century were built much later, but to 19th-century standards and cheaply, meaning narrow bends and steep gradients to avoid longer tunnels and viaducts, and some other lines were built in metric gauge, that is even more cheaply, when they should have been built in Iberian gauge. 

It's no wonder we're building and planning so many new lines now. We would have had to even if we hadn't joined the European Union ever.


----------



## Nexis




----------



## dimlys1994

^^I'm looking on this and I'm worried about those who crossed this crossing every day. Where is it, by the way?


----------



## CNGL

I know that railroad crossing! Salou was my holiday destination every year when I was a kid. Anyway, it is nowhere near Barcelona, it's some 110 km to the west-southwest.


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## nanar

And there, in the same town, barriers down during 40 minutes. :nuts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annot...&feature=iv&src_vid=OXwL4_Dz7gs&v=qTc5gqilYKY


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## CNGL

I wouldn't like to be the driver of that white car, as I would have to wait a whole 38 min (That's right, thirty-eight minutes, over half-a-hour :nuts just to get the barrier up.

Ironically, this is the very same railroad crossing I encountered while getting to beach.


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## arctic_carlos

Fortunately all freight trains as well as most long-distance passenger trains will stop using this line later this year or in early 2016, as a new double-track line is being built further inland. 

We still don't know if this single-track section will remain in use of regional and suburban services or if it will be dismantled (what the mayor of Salou wants). In any event, the situation will greatly improve for everybody once this bottleneck disappears.


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## Nexis

within Barcelona province


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## 437.001

clickgr said:


> Is there any plan for the rest Bedous-Canfranc part? Any forecast to finish the entire line and put in service?


Not that we know.



alserrod said:


> Should the tunnel would be opened, the amount of freight carried would be important


With gradients of 43mm? I don't think so...


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> Such a service on a so long line with just two trains is very hard. Certainly they have to use both units at the same time, without a reserve unit.


I don't know. 
They say 10 trains per day on Lleida-Balaguer, three of them continuing up to La Pobla de Segur.
Could that allow for operating with just one train, the other on the reserve? Mystery.
I think that before the service was cut, they used to operate with two/three 592 DMUs.



Coccodrillo said:


> Will FGC buy some old 592 units from Renfe?


Definitely not. Class 592 DMUs are too old.



Coccodrillo said:


> Will it just rend them when needed (planned maintenance of the GTWs), but without a reserve ready in case of breakdowns?


I don't know.



Coccodrillo said:


> Will it replace trains with buses?


I don't find this unlikely.


----------



## gincan

437.001 said:


> The new class 331 DMUs have been built by Stadler.


It is kind of remarkable considering Spain has been going through hard times and there just happen to be a train factory in Santa Perpètua that is under constant threat of being closed down.

But well, in my book, Stadler is anyway better than Alstom in every conceivable way.


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## 437.001

gincan said:


> It is kind of remarkable considering Spain has been going through hard times and there just happen to be a train factory in Santa Perpètua that is under constant threat of being closed down.


Not really. It seems that FGC had to struggle a bit to find a firm that was able to build such a small number of trains.



gincan said:


> But well, in my book, Stadler is anyway better than Alstom in every conceivable way.


That's debatable. Although I admit I have yet to use these new FGC trains.

But these are not the first Stadler trains that FGC has in stock, and the other Stadler trains (all rack railways) are not the most favourite.


----------



## Sunfuns

These look similar to some regional trains we have (except EMU instead of DMU). They are fine, albeit nothing particularly amazing.


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...or-ertms-deployment-underway.html?channel=532
> 
> *Atlantic Corridor ERTMS deployment underway*
> Friday, January 29, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _A consortium of Alstom, CAF, and Siemens has begun the work to install ERTMS on the Atlantic Corridor in Galicia, the 155km-long high-speed line which connects A Coruña with Santiago and Vigo_
> 
> Spanish infrastructure manager Adif awarded the ETCS Level 1 contract last August, three months after the line was completed. The contract includes the installation of the traffic management system at a cost of €37.5m, along with a 20-year maintenance package worth €25m
> 
> ...


----------



## Sunfuns

They are saying more than million passengers in half a year. That translates to about 6,000 passengers per day. I think that's really good for a single line considering that none of the cities involved are really large.


----------



## 437.001

First test for the new class 331 DMUs for FGC.


----------



## Metred

Feve Robla Express train in the Bilbao-León line through province of *Burgos*.


Expreso de La Robla Bilbao-León pasando por Bercedo de Montija (Burgos) by Jose Ignacio Esnarriaga San Jose, en Flickr


----------



## Metred

*Renfe Talgo passanger rail near Sitges*


Talgo 1102 @ Sitges by Wesley van Drongelen, en Flickr


----------



## Metred

*Feve passanger rail from Oviedo to Gijón (Asturias)*


Ligero 3100 by MACD 3, en Flickr


----------



## 1772

As a frequent visitor to Marbella; I wonder if there are any plans to build a railway along the Costa Del Sol? 
A line from Malaga - Malaga Airport - Mijas/Fuengirola - Marbella - San Pedro - Estepona - Algeciras for example. 

Should be enough people to make it justifiable, also the port of Algeciras could be upgraded and be able to handle more cargo. 

In the future the line could extend to Cadiz, Huelva and Portugal. But a intercity line between the Costa Del Sol towns would be great. 

Any plans of that getting built?


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## arctic_carlos

^^ There's already a Málaga - Málaga Airport - Fuengirola commuter rail line. There are plans to extend it to Marbella and perhaps Estepona, but we won't see anything in the short term due to lack of funding.

We have to bear in mind that most of the Costa del Sol is overbuilt, so the new line between Fuengirola and Marbella will have to be built like 90% underground, which will be very costly.


----------



## Robi_damian

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ There's already a Málaga - Málaga Airport - Fuengirola commuter rail line. There are plans to extend it to Marbella and perhaps Estepona, but we won't see anything in the short term due to lack of funding.
> 
> We have to bear in mind that most of the Costa del Sol is overbuilt, so the new line between Fuengirola and Marbella will have to be built like 90% underground, which will be very costly.


True, but a section from Fuengirola to Marbella would only have 27 kilometres and the area is guaranteed to produce decent numbers of passengers, as the area is densely populated. I think it is still a better priority than some of Spain´s other rail investments. The only sad part is, indeed, the issue of costs.


----------



## arctic_carlos

*Fuengirola - Marbella - Estepona railway line*

^^ The local press has published in the last few days some articles about this project.

To sum up, the Spanish government is studying two different alternatives to extend the current line from Fuengirola to Marbella (first phase) and to Estepona (second phase). 


In the first alternative, the line would be 99% underground between Fuengirola and Estepona (52.9 km). Approximate cost: *3.6 billion €*

In the second alternative, the line would be 70% underground (38.5 km out of 55.2 km). Approximate cost: *2.7 billion €* (just the underground section)

The main problem in the second alternative is that the line wouldn't be totally built alongside the coast and the urban centers, but partially following AP-7 motorway, further inland. At least in Marbella and Estepona it would have stations in its urban centers, but it seems in the rest of towns of the corridor it would be built far from the built-up areas. That's why it would be a little longer and some parts could be built above ground. However, the number of potential users would be significantly lower than in the first alternative, as it wouldn't serve the most populated urban centers.

The first alternative would of course give a better service to commuters and tourists, but its prohibitive construction costs could delay the project or even just postpone it until the next century. Therefore I assume we'll have to fight for the cheaper second alternative, which is more realistic given the current financial situation of our country. Even if stations are built out of the urban centers, good bus services can be established communicating these stations to urban centers, so it's not the end of the world, and at least there would be rail service in the crowded Costa del Sol corridor.

Another important aspect is that the mostly underground alternative envisages the possibility of continuing the line towards the area of Algeciras/Gibraltar, while the cheaper one doesn't do so (that's weird). And finally there's another issue, not so crucial but also important: what to do with the current Málaga - Fuengirola line, which is not prepared for any new extension bringing loads of passengers. It's still partially single tracked and has too many stations, so future services from Málaga to Marbella and Estepona can't be fast and become a real alternative unless a big investment is done there.

Here you can see a map with both alternatives drawn on it (sorry for its bad quality, but at least you can have an idea of the project):










And two press articles in Spanish explaining the different alternatives:



> *Fomento estudia un túnel para llevar el tren a Estepona de 52 kilómetros*
> 
> Es una de las dos alternativas para prolongar el ferrocarril desde el municipio de Fuengirola. La solución mixta que se proyecta, de 55,2 kilómetros, rebaja la parte subterránea al 70% del recorrido.
> 
> http://www.malagahoy.es/article/mal...nel/para/llevar/tren/estepona/kilometros.html





> *Fomento asume las tesis de la Junta y se decanta por llevar soterrado el tren a Marbella*
> 
> Desechó los proyectos del Gobierno andaluz por el alto coste de la obra. La alternativa que ahora cree "más adecuada" superaría los 3.600.
> 
> http://www.malagahoy.es/article/mal...canta/por/llevar/soterrado/tren/marbella.html


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## Sunfuns

I'd advise postponing for 5-10 years with a hope that economic situation is better plus all the other rail mega projects are already finished. The route with stations is town centres would clearly be used by many more people. 

You could probably learn something from Italy and their Genoa-Ventimiglia line which has been mostly rebuilt underground. At great expense of course, but it is much faster now than it used to be.


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## 1772

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ There's already a Málaga - Málaga Airport - Fuengirola commuter rail line. There are plans to extend it to Marbella and perhaps Estepona, but we won't see anything in the short term due to lack of funding.
> 
> We have to bear in mind that most of the Costa del Sol is overbuilt, so the new line between Fuengirola and Marbella will have to be built like 90% underground, which will be very costly.


Huh! I never knew that. Might be I didn't know to look for it. But thanks for the info. 

And great to see that there are plans to extend it. 
Would there be a station near Puerto Banus/Nueva Andalucia in the plans aswell?


----------



## 1772

Btw, speaking of coastal rail lines. 
I see there are some plans to have high speed rail between Malaga and Alicante. And also between Valencia and Barcelona. 
But why not between Alicante and Valencia? 

A high-speed line along the coast from Malaga to Barcelona would be pretty cool and probably well used.


----------



## eu01

1772 said:


> But why not between Alicante and Valencia?


A couple of years ago I travelled from Alicante to Valencia, it took less than two hours, at present the shortest travel time is 1 hour 30 minutes, not bad. They use high speed trains, the line is a bit curvy (via Villena and Xativa), but still it IS a high speed line. The coastal line wouldn't be much shorter, the straight line would be very expensive to build, look at the mountains there. I think the existing solution is quite a good compromise, isn't it?


----------



## 1772

eu01 said:


> A couple of years ago I travelled from Alicante to Valencia, it took less than two hours, at present the shortest travel time is 1 hour 30 minutes, not bad. They use high speed trains, the line is a bit curvy (via Villena and Xativa), but still it IS a high speed line. The coastal line wouldn't be much shorter, the straight line would be very expensive to build, look at the mountains there. I think the existing solution is quite a good compromise, isn't it?


Ah, I saw a map and it looked like it was a gap there. I trust you then. :cheers:


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Not exactly. When talking about High Speed Rail (HSR) it's important to differentiate between services and infrastructure. I'll try to answer to your questions:

1) Currently there are seasonal HSR services (AVE) between *Málaga* and both *Alicante* and *Valencia* (as well as from Seville to Alicante and Valencia). But there's no High Speed Line (HSL) Málaga - Alicante. Those services I mention use the HSL Madrid - Málaga and then the HSL Madrid - Alicante / Valencia. They don't enter in Madrid because there's a junction between both lines 50 km south of the capital. To sum up: AVE services Málaga - Alicante go via Córdoba, Ciudad Real, Cuenca and Albacete, instead of following the Mediterranean coast between both cities (where there's neither HSR nor classic rail).

2) Regarding a possible line following the *Mediterranean coast* between Málaga and Alicante, geography is too complicated between Málaga and Almería to build it (and between Nerja and El Ejido the population is not that high). There's a HSL under construction between Antequera (on Madrid - Málaga HSL) and Granada, as well as another HSL under construction between Alicante and Murcia. There's also a project of building a HSL between Murcia and Almería (with some parts also under construction), but in the short term nothing will be done between Granada and Almería. Perhaps the classic line will be upgraded, but it does'n follow the coastline.

3) Regarding *Valencia - Barcelona*, there's no proper HSL linking both cities. There's just a classic line that has been upgraded to speeds up to 220 km/h in some sections (although trains there have a maximum speed of 200 km/h). You can count that as HSR, but so far only in some sections of the line. Besides, said upgrade is yet to be completed, and currently there are massive works taking place between Valencia and Castellón. On top of that, a new bypass is being built between Vandellòs and Camp de Tarragona station in the Madrid - Barcelona HSL. Once this new bypass is finished, services between Barcelona and Valencia will use the Madrid - Barcelona HSL between Barcelona and Camp de Tarragona, where they will switch to the new bypass line up to Vandellòs, and from there to Valencia they will use the upgraded classic line. Is it that HSR? Perhaps. But it's not a full HSL, at least between Vandellòs and Valencia.

4) And finally, with regards to *Valencia - Alicante*, the situation is not exactly what has been described in a few posts above mine: 

On the one hand, we have a project to build a new line following the coast. That won't be HSR but something like a classic line with speeds up to 160 km/h, if possible. That new line would actually be an extension of the current Valencia - Gandia classic line, which in turn will be doubled between Cullera and Gandia. Between Gandia and Denia there's no rail whatsoever, but between Denia and Alicate there's a metric gauge line. The latter will probably be partially regauged to standard or Iberian gauge, but unfortunately only small sections of it can be used, as it's very curvy. In any case, someday there will be a brand new line at least between Alicante and Benidorm, but only God knows when it will be built. To sum up, there are plans to build a coastal line Valencia - Gandia - Denia - Benidorm - Alicante, but that's in an early stage of planning.

On the other hand, we have the traditional route between Valencia and Alicante. That's Valencia - Xativa - La Encina junction - Villena - Alicante. In this case we can also find different stages of completion. Between Valencia and Xative there's a HSL under construction, so currently all trains use the classic line. Xativa - La Encina was upgraded in the 90s to speeds up to 220 km/h, but the line is to be regauged to standard gauge once Valencia - Xativa is completed. Between La Encina and Alicante there's a HSL (part of the Madrid - Alicante HSL), but this HSL is not yet connected in La Encina to the upgraded line that goes towards Valencia. This connection is under construction and will be finished once there's standard gauge between Valencia and La Encina via Xativa. That means that currently Valencia - Alicante trains can't use the HSL between La Encina and Alicante and must use the classic line via Villena. Fortunately that will change in a couple of years. To sum up, there will be HSR services Valencia - Xativa - Villena - Alicante in the short term, but currently all services have to use classic lines (although a small portion between La Encina and Xativa is already upgraded and will be part of a HSL in the short term).

I hope I've cleared some doubts, in any case don't hesitate in asking here should you have other inquires.


----------



## Sunfuns

It's a complex situation as usual where one has to balance ideal outcome and available funding...

Regarding Valencia-Alicante and believing Google the route is already faster with a train (1 h 30 mim to 1 h 45 min) than with a car. Probably will be under one hour (for ca 160 km) when all the improvements described above are finished.


----------



## Robi_damian

arctic_carlos said:


> 3) Regarding *Valencia - Barcelona*, there's no proper HSL linking both cities. There's just a classic line that has been upgraded to speeds up to 220 km/h in some sections (although trains there have a maximum speed of 200 km/h). You can count that as HSR, but so far only in some sections of the line. Besides, said upgrade is yet to be completed, and currently there are massive works taking place between Valencia and Castellón. On top of that, a new bypass is being built between Vandellòs and Camp de Tarragona station in the Madrid - Barcelona HSL. Once this new bypass is finished, services between Barcelona and Valencia will use the Madrid - Barcelona HSL between Barcelona and Camp de Tarragona, where they will switch to the new bypass line up to Vandellòs, and from there to Valencia they will use the upgraded classic line. Is it that HSR? Perhaps. But it's not a full HSL, at least between Vandellòs and Valencia.


Wait, would this line be the main route from Valencia to Tarragona? Won´t this hit traffic from the South to Tarragona given that Camp de Tarragona is situated very far outside of the city?


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Most services between Valencia and Barcelona will indeed bypass Tarragona, either stopping at Camp de Tarragona station (10 km from the city center) or becoming direct services without intermediate stops.

However, a new junction is being built at Vila-seca, just west of Tarragona, where the new line u/c crosses the Reus - Tarragona classic line: https://www.google.es/maps/@41.1243696,1.1384962,1174m/data=!3m1!1e3 

Consequently, it will be possible to continue operating services between Valencia and the city center of Tarragona. Actually, most regional services between Barcelona and Tortosa will surely use this junction, as well as some long distance services between Barcelona and Valencia using the classic line and, of course, all freight trains. But it seems pretty clear that most long distance services (currently called Euromed, maybe Alvia in the future) will bypass Tarragona in order to reduce travel times between Barcelona and Valencia to 2 h 20 min.


----------



## arctic_carlos

Sunfuns said:


> Regarding Valencia-Alicante and believing Google the route is already faster with a train (1 h 30 mim to 1 h 45 min) than with a car. Probably will be under one hour (for ca 160 km) when all the improvements described above are finished.


In these cases I recommend searching the exact schedules on the Renfe website. 

Currently there are 11 services from Valencia to Alicante on a weekday. Only 4 of them are fast Euromed non-stop services (between 1 h 36 min and 1 h 38 min). The other services are slower trains stopping at least in Xativa and Villena, or even also in Elda-Petrer, Novelda and Sax, whose travel times range from 1 h 42 min to 2 h 8 min.

In the opposite direction, from Alicante to Valencia, there are also 11 daily services, 4 of them being Euromed. Here you can find travel times between 1 h 30 min and 1 h 42 min. The rest of services range from 1 h 42 min to 2 h 11 min.

Once the remaining sections of HSL Valencia - Xativa - La Encina open, it will possible to do Valencia - Alicante in 55 minutes, but I assume it will finally depend on the number of stops, as both Villena and Xativa will have (or already have, in the case of Villena) HSR stations.


----------



## Sunfuns

Actually I did consult Renfe website to find those times. I ignored the frequency of those faster trains because I only wanted to find out how fast is in principle possible on the old line as opposed to how convenient is currently a train service between the two cities. 

From my perspective frequency of trains in Spain is rarely sufficient from a point of view of max passenger convenience (economic arguments might differ)...


----------



## 437.001

*Costa del Sol railway.*



1772 said:


> As a frequent visitor to Marbella; I wonder if there are any plans to build a railway along the Costa Del Sol?
> A line from Malaga - Malaga Airport - Mijas/Fuengirola - Marbella - San Pedro - Estepona - Algeciras for example.
> 
> Should be enough people to make it justifiable, also the port of Algeciras could be upgraded and be able to handle more cargo.
> 
> *In the future the line could extend to Cadiz, Huelva and Portugal*. But a intercity line between the Costa Del Sol towns would be great.
> 
> Any plans of that getting built?


You've been answered, I just wanted to add that there is no way a line will ever go beyond Cadiz towards Huelva. 
That's a big no-no, as between Cadiz and Huelva there's the Doñana National Park. Not even a single road goes there!

As for Algeciras-Cadiz, that would be useful, but very expensive, and less of a priority than building the section between Fuengirola and Algeciras.

And regarding Huelva-Portugal... southern Portugal isn't the most populated part of that country, and both countries are focussing more on the improvement of the current connections (Salamanca-Guarda-Coimbra/Aveiro, and Vigo-Porto, new line Evora-Elvas). 
I doubt we'll see a rail bridge across the Guadiana at Ayamonte/Vila Real de Santo António in at least 50 years, if ever.



Robi_damian said:


> True, but a section from Fuengirola to Marbella would only have 27 kilometres and the area is guaranteed to produce decent numbers of passengers, as the area is densely populated. I think it is still a better priority than some of Spain´s other rail investments. The only sad part is, indeed, the issue of costs.


I don't think it should stop at Marbella or Estepona. I think it should run up to Algeciras (or more exactly, San Roque, where it would join the Bobadilla-Algeciras main line). The area is populated, not counting tourists.

As for the issue of costs, that matters indeed, but it can always be built by sections.

I think getting to Marbella isn't more of a priority than getting to Mijas first.
Giving a good rail coverage to Mijas (which now is only very indirectly served through Fuengirola station) would already wipe away many cars from the road, and would be expensive enough.



arctic_carlos said:


> The main problem in the second alternative is that the line wouldn't be totally built alongside the coast and the urban centers, but partially following AP-7 motorway, further inland. At least in Marbella and Estepona it would have stations in its urban centers, but it seems in the rest of towns of the corridor it would be built far from the built-up areas. That's why it would be a little longer and some parts could be built above ground. However, the number of potential users would be significantly lower than in the first alternative, as it wouldn't serve the most populated urban centers.
> 
> The first alternative would of course give a better service to commuters and tourists, but its prohibitive construction costs could delay the project or even just postpone it until the next century. Therefore I assume we'll have to fight for the cheaper second alternative, which is more realistic given the current financial situation of our country. Even if stations are built out of the urban centers, good bus services can be established communicating these stations to urban centers, so it's not the end of the world, and at least there would be rail service in the crowded Costa del Sol corridor.


I don't think that's a reason to go tight-fisted in there.
I'd go for the underground section, and I'd build it by sections, and very clearly with the final goal of reaching San Roque station on the Bobadilla-Algeciras main line.
That's only too many passengers you can win.



arctic_carlos said:


> Another important aspect is that the mostly underground alternative envisages the possibility of continuing the line towards the area of Algeciras/Gibraltar, while the cheaper one doesn't do so (that's weird).


To me, not reaching Algeciras would be a grave mistake, a lost opportunity.

As for Gibraltar, that would involve the UK and would be terribly tricky to run under the airport runway, so I don't think it will ever get built.
Anyway, having a station at La Línea and a bus shuttle up to the border point (or even Gibraltar centre if they get the border story fixed, but that's maybe wishful thinking) would be good enough. 
Any other solution/improvement would be mostly up to the Gibraltar/Westminster authorities... and the ever-changing state of politics (or should I say politicians?) of Spain and the UK regarding the Rock. 



arctic_carlos said:


> And finally there's another issue, not so crucial but also important: what to do with the current Málaga - Fuengirola line, which is not prepared for any new extension bringing loads of passengers. It's still partially single tracked and has too many stations, so future services from Málaga to Marbella and Estepona can't be fast and become a real alternative unless a big investment is done there.


Oh, that's not cheap, but technically it's not very complicated, either. Only very tricky, and will certainly involve cutting the service.
It's just a sum of upgrades to be made. Some stations should also see their capacity improved, to allow faster trains.



Sunfuns said:


> I'd advise postponing for 5-10 years with a hope that economic situation is better plus all the other rail mega projects are already finished.


That's clear. Everybody understands it that way.



1772 said:


> Would there be a station near Puerto Banus/Nueva Andalucia in the plans aswell?


Certainly. Not building it would be nonsense.


----------



## 437.001

*Costa Blanca railway (& Barcelona-Valencia).*



1772 said:


> Btw, speaking of coastal rail lines.
> I see there are some plans to have high speed rail between Malaga and Alicante. And also between Valencia and Barcelona.
> But why not between Alicante and Valencia?
> 
> A high-speed line along the coast from Malaga to Barcelona would be pretty cool and probably well used.





arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Not exactly. When talking about High Speed Rail (HSR) it's important to differentiate between services and infrastructure. I'll try to answer to your questions:
> 
> 1) Currently there are seasonal HSR services (AVE) between *Málaga* and both *Alicante* and *Valencia* (as well as from Seville to Alicante and Valencia). But there's no High Speed Line (HSL) Málaga - Alicante. Those services I mention use the HSL Madrid - Málaga and then the HSL Madrid - Alicante / Valencia. They don't enter in Madrid because there's a junction between both lines 50 km south of the capital. To sum up: AVE services Málaga - Alicante go via Córdoba, Ciudad Real, Cuenca and Albacete, instead of following the Mediterranean coast between both cities (where there's neither HSR nor classic rail).
> 
> 2) Regarding a possible line following the *Mediterranean coast* between Málaga and Alicante, geography is too complicated between Málaga and Almería to build it (and between Nerja and El Ejido the population is not that high). There's a HSL under construction between Antequera (on Madrid - Málaga HSL) and Granada, as well as another HSL under construction between Alicante and Murcia. There's also a project of building a HSL between Murcia and Almería (with some parts also under construction), but in the short term nothing will be done between Granada and Almería. Perhaps the classic line will be upgraded, but it does'n follow the coastline.


A gauge changer will be built soon at Granada station.
New Alvia services Madrid-Granada-Almeria will be created (probably Seville-Granada-Almeria too, but that will also depend on the availability of rolling stock), and that gauge changer would of course be used by any future services reaching Murcia or beyond from Granada via Almeria. 

It should be added that the Granada-Almeria line is electrified only between Huéneja and Almeria, the missing part between Huéneja and Granada is diesel.



arctic_carlos said:


> 3) Regarding *Valencia - Barcelona*, there's no proper HSL linking both cities. There's just a classic line that has been upgraded to speeds up to 220 km/h in some sections (although trains there have a maximum speed of 200 km/h). You can count that as HSR, but so far only in some sections of the line. Besides, said upgrade is yet to be completed, and currently there are massive works taking place between Valencia and Castellón. On top of that, a new bypass is being built between Vandellòs and Camp de Tarragona station in the Madrid - Barcelona HSL. Once this new bypass is finished, services between Barcelona and Valencia will use the Madrid - Barcelona HSL between Barcelona and Camp de Tarragona, where they will switch to the new bypass line up to Vandellòs, and from there to Valencia they will use the upgraded classic line. Is it that HSR? Perhaps. But it's not a full HSL, at least between Vandellòs and Valencia.
> 
> 4) And finally, with regards to *Valencia - Alicante*, the situation is not exactly what has been described in a few posts above mine:
> 
> On the one hand, we have a project to build a new line following the coast. That won't be HSR but something like a classic line with speeds up to 160 km/h, if possible. That new line would actually be an extension of the current Valencia - Gandia classic line, which in turn will be doubled between Cullera and Gandia. Between Gandia and Denia there's no rail whatsoever, but between Denia and Alicate there's a metric gauge line. The latter will probably be partially regauged to standard or Iberian gauge, but unfortunately only small sections of it can be used, as it's very curvy. In any case, someday there will be a brand new line at least between Alicante and Benidorm, but only God knows when it will be built. To sum up, there are plans to build a coastal line Valencia - Gandia - Denia - Benidorm - Alicante, but that's in an early stage of planning.


The Costa Blanca line can be split in three clearly different sections.

Gandia-Denia will mostly use the trackbed of the old metric gauge line that was closed in the 1970's, which in that sector has a very long alignment and could allow for speeds of 160km/h. It's reasonably easy to build, the main problem would be where to put Denia station (personally I wouldn't forget about the Ibiza-Denia ferry service, so I'd try as closest to the port as possible), and potential nimbyism.

Denia-Benidorm should mostly be a regauging of the current metric line.
As Alicante-Valencia will always be faster via Villena-Xativa, in this section around Denia the line can be split up in two, with one flow of commuting/tourist passengers going to Alicante-Madrid, the other to Valencia-Barcelona. 
And since the area is mountainous, and massive tunnelling wouldn't do as that would mean getting further away from the populated areas, I'd go for a regauging, with potential short new sections to improve speed just a little bit. 

Finally, Benidorm-Alicante should be a new line, but in that section there's already the metric gauge line, which was upgraded for tram-train service, and although it's well-patronized, it's not very effective as it is rather slow.
Locals would want a HSL, but I'd go for a commuter rail line, but in this case further away from the town centres, as the tram-train already covers that, and thus other inland towns (Mutxamel, San Juan) could be served too (now they aren't). 



arctic_carlos said:


> On the other hand, we have the traditional route between Valencia and Alicante. That's Valencia - Xativa - La Encina junction - Villena - Alicante. In this case we can also find different stages of completion. Between Valencia and Xative there's a HSL under construction, so currently all trains use the classic line. Xativa - La Encina was upgraded in the 90s to speeds up to 220 km/h, but the line is to be regauged to standard gauge once Valencia - Xativa is completed. Between La Encina and Alicante there's a HSL (part of the Madrid - Alicante HSL), but this HSL is not yet connected in La Encina to the upgraded line that goes towards Valencia. This connection is under construction and will be finished once there's standard gauge between Valencia and La Encina via Xativa. That means that currently Valencia - Alicante trains can't use the HSL between La Encina and Alicante and must use the classic line via Villena. Fortunately that will change in a couple of years. To sum up, there will be HSR services Valencia - Xativa - Villena - Alicante in the short term, but currently all services have to use classic lines (although a small portion between La Encina and Xativa is already upgraded and will be part of a HSL in the short term).
> 
> I hope I've cleared some doubts, in any case don't hesitate in asking here should you have other inquires.





Robi_damian said:


> Wait, would this line be the main route from Valencia to Tarragona? Won´t this hit traffic from the South to Tarragona given that Camp de Tarragona is situated very far outside of the city?





arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Most services between Valencia and Barcelona will indeed bypass Tarragona, either stopping at Camp de Tarragona station (10 km from the city center) or becoming direct services without intermediate stops.
> 
> However, a new junction is being built at Vila-seca, just west of Tarragona, where the new line u/c crosses the Reus - Tarragona classic line: https://www.google.es/maps/@41.1243696,1.1384962,1174m/data=!3m1!1e3
> 
> Consequently, it will be possible to continue operating services between Valencia and the city center of Tarragona. Actually, most regional services between Barcelona and Tortosa will surely use this junction, as well as some long distance services between Barcelona and Valencia using the classic line and, of course, all freight trains. But it seems pretty clear that most long distance services (currently called Euromed, maybe Alvia in the future) will bypass Tarragona in order to reduce travel times between Barcelona and Valencia to 2 h 20 min.


The issue is that Castellon-Camp de Tarragona or Valencia-Camp de Tarragona won't be competitive vs car as opposed to Castellon-Tarragona and Valencia-Tarragona, which are competitive vs car.

And the road is saturated enough...

That's why some LD services through Tarragona and the classic line to Barcelona will be maintained.

ps: regarding regional services between Tarragona and Tortosa... there's the "Salou problem", which isn't solved yet.
Basically, the town hall of Salou has had a fit of nimbyism (and lobbying by a bus company and housing promoters), so they have decided they don't want railway any longer. We're trying to convince them it's a big mistake, but at the moment they're adamant that they don't want railway anymore.



Sunfuns said:


> It's a complex situation as usual where one has to balance ideal outcome and available funding...
> 
> Regarding Valencia-Alicante and believing Google the route is already faster with a train (1 h 30 mim to 1 h 45 min) than with a car. Probably will be under one hour (for ca 160 km) when all the improvements described above are finished.





arctic_carlos said:


> In these cases I recommend searching the exact schedules on the Renfe website.
> 
> Currently there are 11 services from Valencia to Alicante on a weekday. Only 4 of them are fast Euromed non-stop services (between 1 h 36 min and 1 h 38 min). The other services are slower trains stopping at least in Xativa and Villena, or even also in Elda-Petrer, Novelda and Sax, whose travel times range from 1 h 42 min to 2 h 8 min.
> 
> In the opposite direction, from Alicante to Valencia, there are also 11 daily services, 4 of them being Euromed. Here you can find travel times between 1 h 30 min and 1 h 42 min. The rest of services range from 1 h 42 min to 2 h 11 min.
> 
> Once the remaining sections of HSL Valencia - Xativa - La Encina open, it will possible to do Valencia - Alicante in 55 minutes, but I assume it will finally depend on the number of stops, as both Villena and Xativa will have (or already have, in the case of Villena) HSR stations.





Sunfuns said:


> Actually I did consult Renfe website to find those times. I ignored the frequency of those faster trains because I only wanted to find out how fast is in principle possible on the old line as opposed to how convenient is currently a train service between the two cities.
> 
> From my perspective frequency of trains in Spain is rarely sufficient from a point of view of max passenger convenience (economic arguments might differ)...


They do differ.


----------



## Sunfuns

Is Camp de Tarragona station really ever convenient/competitive? I guess for those going to Madrid it would still be, but otherwise not much...


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## arctic_carlos

^^ You're right. Camp de Tarragona has a reasonable amount of users, but it's mostly used to travel towards Madrid, Zaragoza, Andalusia or northern Spain. Almost nobody uses that station to go to Barcelona, it's not competitive compared to the old Tarragona station on the classic line, which is located in the city of Tarragona itself.

Once the connection towards Valencia opens, early next year, perhaps there'll be a significant number of passengers to Alicante and Murcia, but as 437.001 said, it won't be competitive to go to Castellón and Valencia, at least for those passengers coming from the city of Tarragona.

In addition, there's a new HSR station planned halfway between Reus and Tarragona (next to the airport's runway) on the new Camp de Tarragona - Vandellòs line. It wouldn't be closer to Tarragona than the current Camp de Tarragona station, but at least it would also serve Reus. In any case, it looks like this new station has been postponed for a while.


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## arctic_carlos

*Costa del Sol railway*

More details regarding the two proposed alternatives between Fuengirola and Estepona: 

Dotted lines mean underground sections. As you can see the blue line would have more surface sections, while the red line would be almost 100% underground. 

In any case both alternatives would serve the urban centers of Marbella, Puerto Banús, San Pedro de Alcántara and Estepona.









http://www.laopiniondemalaga.es/mal...ropuestos-tren-litoral-obligarian/844781.html


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## Metred

Euskotren (Basque Railways) EMU in Usurbil


euskotren EMU-908 Usurbil by Emiliano, en Flickr


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## danieltigo

Another case of aging infrastructure


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## kbbcn

danieltigo said:


> Another case of aging infrastructure


Really? Do you mean the bridge (because the rest looks fine to me)? Do you expect them to start replacing bridges all over the country because they look a bit "aging"? That would be a fine way to waste taxpayers' money...


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## Robi_damian

kbbcn said:


> Really? Do you mean the bridge (because the rest looks fine to me)? Do you expect them to start replacing bridges all over the country because they look a bit "aging"? That would be a fine way to waste taxpayers' money...


Heck, even the bridge looks ok. Given the wet climate on the Atlantic coast, some mould and grit will take hold faster than in, say, Almeria.


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## Suburbanist

Narrow-gauge railways are kinda obsolete except for touristic purposes.


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## 00Zy99

Suburbanist said:


> Narrow-gauge railways are kinda obsolete except for touristic purposes.


Tell that to Japan, South Africa, Switzerland, Germany, Cambodia, New Zealand, and numerous other states that use narrow gauge.


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## Metred

Suburbanist said:


> Narrow-gauge railways are kinda obsolete except for touristic purposes.


Euskotren in the Basque Country is everything but obsolete, especially as a short-distance commute rail service.


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## pccvspw999

Suburbanist said:


> Narrow-gauge railways are kinda obsolete except for touristic purposes.


There is no tecnical explanation for your statement. Narrow-gauge isn't a toy, but a full operational railway system, even able of elevate speeds. Because standard gauge is used for most applications, doesn't mean that narrower gauges are "kinda obsolete".


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## alserrod

Rather than touristic, I would say, commuter trains (Barcelona and Valencia underground use these old lines, for instance).


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## 437.001

Metred said:


> Euskotren in the Basque Country is everything but obsolete, especially as a short-distance commute rail service.


I'm not going to go as far as to say that narrow-gauge is obsolete, but your statement is not correct, either.

Euskotren is ONLY valid for short-distance commuter rail service (and freight).
Bilbao-San Sebastian by Euskotren takes forever, and not a lot of people use it for regional services.
Not because it's Euskotren, but because it's unpractical.

Which means that the lines between Hendaye and Ferrol should have been built in Iberian (not to say standard) gauge.


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## Robi_damian

437.001 said:


> I'm not going to go as far as to say that narrow-gauge is obsolete, but your statement is not correct, either.
> 
> Euskotren is ONLY valid for short-distance commuter rail service (and freight).
> Bilbao-San Sebastian by Euskotren takes forever, and not a lot of people use it for regional services.
> Not because it's Euskotren, but because it's unpractical.
> 
> Which means that the lines between Hendaye and Ferrol should have been built in Iberian (not to say standard) gauge.


But it also takes forever due to the route, which is direct on a distance-map, but winds through towns, tight curves, etc. For the Bermeo line it is better, for example. For Bilbao-San Sebastian, no way Jose. It takes 02:40 hours IIRC.


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## 00Zy99

Of course, that is a problem of alignment, not an inherent problem with being narrow-gauge. Build a standard-gauge train along the same route, and there wouldn't be much difference.


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## Metred

437.001 said:


> I'm not going to go as far as to say that narrow-gauge is obsolete, but your statement is not correct, either.
> 
> Euskotren is ONLY valid for short-distance commuter rail service (and freight).
> Bilbao-San Sebastian by Euskotren takes forever, and not a lot of people use it for regional services.
> Not because it's Euskotren, but because it's unpractical.
> 
> Which means that the lines between Hendaye and Ferrol should have been built in Iberian (not to say standard) gauge.


It is true that the narrow-gauge railway between Bilbao and Donostia is not competitive, although I think that has more to do with the nature of the territory (very mountainous) and the fact that the rail line has not been completely modernised (many, extensive sections - like the one in the photo - are just one-track).

However, more or less a decade ago Euskotren decided to redirect their service model, transforming it into a regional commuter-rail service. Nobody takes Euskotren to go from Bilbao to San Sebastian, but *plenty* of people use it for short distances: Bilbao-Bermeo, Bilbao-Durango, Ermua-Eibar, Zarautz-Donostia and finally Donostia-Hendaia (this last one recently transformed into a subway system). The number of passengers for this short-distance routes has actually increased, which has allowed for the modernisation not only of the trains but also of the network itself (tunnels, viaducts, double-track, etc.).

Euskotren is not intended anymore for long-distance traveling. It is intended for metropolitan and short-distance trips, and on that sense it is doing fine.


Euskotren by FurbyTrenes, en Flickr


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## Sunfuns

I assume Basque Y high speed system whenever it's finally finished will take over almost all rail based regional traffic in that corner of the country.


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## 437.001

Metred said:


> It is true that the narrow-gauge railway between Bilbao and Donostia is not competitive, although I think that has more to do with the nature of the territory (very mountainous) and the fact that the rail line has not been completely modernised (many, extensive sections - like the one in the photo - are just one-track).
> 
> However, more or less a decade ago Euskotren decided to redirect their service model, transforming it into a regional commuter-rail service. Nobody takes Euskotren to go from Bilbao to San Sebastian, but *plenty* of people use it for short distances: Bilbao-Bermeo, Bilbao-Durango, Ermua-Eibar, Zarautz-Donostia and finally Donostia-Hendaia (this last one recently transformed into a subway system). The number of passengers for this short-distance routes has actually increased, which has allowed for the modernisation not only of the trains but also of the network itself (tunnels, viaducts, double-track, etc.).
> 
> Euskotren is not intended anymore for long-distance traveling. It is intended for metropolitan and short-distance trips, and on that sense it is doing fine.


Alright, now. kay: The point was necessary.



Sunfuns said:


> I assume Basque Y high speed system whenever it's finally finished will take over almost all rail based regional traffic in that corner of the country.


Not really. 

There is no real regional rail traffic that can be taken over (and like Metred said, very very few people use it to go from Bilbao to San Sebastian or even less Hendaye).

For instance, people who take the MD Madrid-Irun at Vitoria will rarely go beyond Alsasua, even less beyond Zumarraga.

The Basque Y will have no intermediate stops, excepting Ezkio-Itsaso on the San Sebastian-Hendaye branch, which anyway will serve non-existant routes.

Unless you talk about taking over coach services, in which case it's true.
With the Basque Y, trips such as Bilbao-Vitoria (which has never had a direct railway), Bilbao-San Sebastian-Hendaye (in which very few people use the current Euskotren service), and Vitoria-San Sebastian-Hendaye (in which very few people use the current Renfe service) will become really competitive. But not for the current intermediate stations though.


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## Suburbanist

They should have considered, maybe, a Santander-Bilbao-San Sebastian-Irún fast (not necessarily high speed) rail line along the coast, but that would have been expensive.


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## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> They should have considered, maybe, a Santander-Bilbao-San Sebastian-Irún fast (not necessarily high speed) rail line along the coast, but that would have been expensive.


A new line Santander-Bilbao is not entirely ruled out. Only that there's no money for that now. 
It could be built by using parts of the current metric-gauge line, parts of the Muskiz classic line (which would need double-tracking), and entirely new sections.
But the way things are going, it won't happen before 2030-2040. 

Bilbao-San Sebastian is alredy under construction (Basque Y).

As for Ferrol-Oviedo-Santander, no intention at all... for now. Could happen beyond 2040.


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## Metred

Suburbanist said:


> They should have considered, maybe, a Santander-Bilbao-San Sebastian-Irún fast (not necessarily high speed) rail line along the coast, but that would have been expensive.


Along the coast would have been very, very expensive, I'd say almost to the point of being non-viable. The Basque Country is mountainous all the way till the very coast, which is very abrupt by the way. Also the fluvial valleys tend to be very narrow and completely encircled by tall mountains until the mouth of the river. There are very little flatlands in Bizkaia and Gipuzkoa.


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## 437.001

*Railway plans on the Costa Blanca.*

The Spanish government has discarded the construction of any railway line between Gandia and Alicante along the coast (through Oliva, Denia, Calpe, Altea, Benidorm, Villajoyosa), arguing that its cost wouldn't justify it. They just forgot to add "mwahahahahahaaa"...


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## arctic_carlos

Laying of track has been completed on the new A Pobra de San Xiao bypass line (León - Monforte de Lemos - A Coruña classic lne).



> *Finalizado el montaje de la vía de la variante del Ave de A Pobra*
> 
> No hay fecha para la entrada en servicio del nuevo trazado, con una longitud de 7,9 kilómetros y que lleva en obras desde hace nueve años
> 
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> http://elprogreso.galiciae.com/noti...montaje-de-la-de-la-variante-del-ave-de-pobra


^^ The press keeps calling the project "AVE" (HSR) when it has nothing to do with that. It's only a 7.9 km bypass line on a classic line, which in 20 or 30 years could become part of a new HSL between Ourense and Lugo (nothing serious at the moment).


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## Metred

437.001 said:


> The Spanish government has discarded the construction of any railway line between Gandia and Alicante along the coast (through Oliva, Denia, Calpe, Altea, Benidorm, Villajoyosa), arguing that its cost wouldn't justify it. They just forgot to add "mwahahahahahaaa"...


Isn't there already a rail line between Alacant and Dénia managed by FGV? It operates under the brand name "TRAM Alicante", does it not?


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## arctic_carlos

^^ The old FGV narrow gauge line is not competitive: it takes almost 3 hours to go from Alicante to Dénia (90 km, 1 hour by car).

To makes matter worse, between Alicante and Benidorm it has been converted into a light rail line, meaning that all passengers must change in Benidorm from tram to train in order to continue up to Dénia.

I mean, light rail within the Alicante metro area is not a bad idea, as now the line has more stops and it's better integrated into the urban area, which means more users. But the consequences for those travelling from Alicante beyond Benidorm (or even to Benidorm itself) have been terrible.

That's why we're now seeing this debate about a new line (of course you can check the Spanish thread for more information: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1654572)


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## 437.001

437.001 said:


> The Spanish government has discarded the construction of any railway line between Gandia and Alicante along the coast (through Oliva, Denia, Calpe, Altea, Benidorm, Villajoyosa), arguing that its cost wouldn't justify it. They just forgot to add "mwahahahahahaaa"...





Metred said:


> Isn't there already a rail line between Alacant and Dénia managed by FGV? It operates under the brand name "TRAM Alicante", does it not?





arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ The old FGV narrow gauge line is not competitive: it takes almost 3 hours to go from Alicante to Dénia (90 km, 1 hour by car).
> 
> To makes matter worse, between Alicante and Benidorm it has been converted into a light rail line, meaning that all passengers must change in Benidorm from tram to train in order to continue up to Dénia.
> 
> I mean, light rail within the Alicante metro area is not a bad idea, as now the line has more stops and it's better integrated into the urban area, which means more users. But the consequences for those travelling from Alicante beyond Benidorm (or even to Benidorm itself) have been terrible.
> 
> That's why we're now seeing this debate about a new line


Exactly.

Right now there are three ideas of new classic lines to be built:

*a) Fuengirola-Marbella-Estepona-La Linea-San Roque*, connecting at Fuengirola with the current classic line Malaga-Fuengirola, and at San Roque with the classic line Bobadilla-Algeciras. This would allow the arrival of railway services into four cities with a population over 50,000 (one of them over 100,000) which never had any passenger railway of any kind. These are Mijas, Marbella, Estepona and La Línea.

*b) San Isidro-Torrevieja*, connecting at San Isidro-Albatera-Catral station with the Murcia-Alicante classic line, and reconnecting Torrevieja to the national rail network. Torrevieja lost its passenger service in the 1970's, the line being closed to all traffic in 1985. That was done at a time in which Torrevieja hadn't had the touristic growth, which happened in the late 1980's basically, just after the closure. This is one of Renfe's biggest mistakes, but at the time it didn't seem like one. Torrevieja, along with Marbella, is the only Peninsular Spanish city of 100,000 inhabitants without a railway line.

*c) Gandia-Oliva-Denia*. It is the missing link between Valencia and Alicante along the coast. Originally it was a metric gauge line that ran from Carcaixent to Alicante. But in the 1970's the section between Carcaixent and Gandia was closed, the section between Gandia and Tavernes de la Valldigna was changed of gauge to Iberian, and a new section in Iberian gauge was built between Tavernes de la Valldigna and Cullera, to connect it to the Silla-Cullera classic line in Iberian gauge. The plan was to change the gauge of the whole section between Tavernes de la Valldigna and Alicante by phases, so the next phase was Gandia to Denia, which was closed... but works never started (although some Renfe network maps of the 1980's showed the section Gandia-Denia as "under construction"). 
As for *Denia-Benidorm-Alicante*, the metric gauge line has never been closed, and it's well used, even though it's quite slow and inefficient, and the section between Alicante and Benidorm has been turned into a tram-train, which even though it's been an improvement, is still rather inefficient. It would greatly benefit from a gauge change, with the platform being upgraded and rectified to allow for higher speeds and frequency.


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## Suburbanist

Isn't touristic traffic enough to justify this line? The are is packed 4 months per year...


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## alserrod

People remains used to move by car on holidays if it is not so far and they are at least three in the car. 
Train exists....but in summer car wins


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## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> Isn't touristic traffic enough to justify this line? The are is packed 4 months per year...





alserrod said:


> People remains used to move by car on holidays if it is not so far and they are at least three in the car.
> Train exists....but in summer car wins


It's not just about tourism, even less about infrastructures for tourists. It's about general people, tourists or not.

The problem is the cost of these three lines altogether, and the fact of the existence of all the other lines under construction.


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## Suburbanist

How much (ratio) do the population of these coastal resorts swell between May and September compared to the rest of the year? Or, put the other way, how empty are those places mentioned outside the extended summer season?

I know it is not enough to look at number of hotel rooms because holiday rentals take in many more people than hotels in beach destinations in Spain and Portugal.

Is AP-7 really empty that you can always drive unimpeded outside peak season?


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## alserrod

10 to 1 at least.

I go to two destinations. 2,5 hours by car. Nightmare yo shuttle by train. 
Sometimes have taken regionals to move on destination but nobody thinks on railway to approach (sometimes in bus because point to point but barely train)


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## arctic_carlos

Suburbanist said:


> How much (ratio) do the population of these coastal resorts swell between May and September compared to the rest of the year? Or, put the other way, how empty are those places mentioned outside the extended summer season?
> 
> I know it is not enough to look at number of hotel rooms because holiday rentals take in many more people than hotels in beach destinations in Spain and Portugal.
> 
> Is AP-7 really empty that you can always drive unimpeded outside peak season?


It depends on the areas, and also if it's on weekdays or weekends. A trunk line Benidorm - Alicante - Airport - Elche - Torrevieja would be well patronized all year round, I can assure you that.

Between Benidorm and Gandia figures could be lower, but by no means trains would be empty in winter. Temperatures are never low in that area (it's normal to reach 15-20° in winter), so there are always many tourists from the rest of the country (especially retired people) and northern Europe (for instance L'Alfàs del Pi has a big Norwegian community). Moreover, that line would also allow seasonal HSR services both from Madrid and Barcelona to Benidorm and other towns of the area.

Regarding the Fuengirola - Marbella - Estepona line, it would be a great success all year round from the first day. The area has a higher population in summer, but also a considerable amount of people live there permanently. Besides, one of the main advantages is that the airport station already exists and would be part of the line (that's one of the main disadvantages of the Alicante area right now).


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## arctic_carlos

Sunfuns said:


> I looked up Lleida-La Pobla de Segur line on Wikipedia and what I found very strange is history of passenger numbers. They more than doubled from 2000 to 2008 and then from 2011 to 2014 collapsed by 70%.
> 
> Any good explanation to such enormous volatility? Economic boom and bust cycle perhaps, but I feel there has to be more than that...


You have the answer three posts above yours...



437.001 said:


> They're not planning doubling services on the Lleida-La Pobla de Segur line, just bringing them back to the pre-crisis timetables.


In a few words: before 2005 that line was in a very bad state and threatened to be closed. There were 3 daily services between Lleida and La Pobla de Segur and that was all.

In 2005 the line was transferred to the Catalan regional government, who carried out considerable upgrades of the infrastructure. In addition, new services were implemented between Lleida and Balaguer (the most important town on the line by far, and the only one that can generate commuter traffic with Lleida of any considerable size) and the the number of passengers started to grow almost automatically.

However, a few years later, in 2011, the Catalan regional government claimed it had not enough funds to maintain that number of services due to the economic crisis and reduced the number of services to just one Lleida - La Pobla de Segur daily service and 4 Lleida - Balaguer services, and thus the sharp fall in the number of passengers. 

Besides, one of the reasons given by the Catalan regional government to justify the reduction of services was that the cost of operating leased Renfe DMU was too high, so it announced it would order new DMU to be directly owned and operated by FGC, the region-owned company in charge of the line.

And that's why now, when the new Stadler DMU are about to enter into service, the pre-crisis timetables are to be resumed, although with one extra service to La Pobla de Segur and one more to Balaguer, if I'm not mistaken.


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## gincan

437.001 said:


> The Barcelona commuter Renfe trains have actually improved their reliability since 2007, even though they're still not Japan-like, reliability-wise.


:nuts:

Trains are running slower and are less reliable than ever. Compare route times for the last 30 years and you see a steady increase in travel times on ALL routes, this is not explained by the addition of new stations.

Sitges-Barcelona Sants used to be 25 minutes with Cercanias, and that was back in the 1970s with 436 trains that could not even do 120km/h, with Talgo you could even do it in under 20 minutes, today it takes 50 minutes with trains that do 160 and has like 3 times faster acceleration. The Suizas did Gava-Sants in under 10 minutes, I know because I was on them regularly, today you are lucky if it is done under 20 minutes and I'm talking about the direct trains.

The exact same thing has happened on all the other routes, travel times in many cases have doubled because of lack of investments, temporary speed restrictions have turned into permanent ones because of lack of investments. Routes are in worse condition than ever, Sants-Vilafranca used to be 35 minutes, now it is 55. And I can go on and on, don't even get me started on Barcelona-Girona route.

Adding more trains does not improve the service if the travel times is DOUBLE that of before. The poor state of the infrastructure has forced RENFE/ADIF to decrease the speed of the trains several times, it is a miracle there have not been any derailments yet.


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## 437.001

^^
Than EVER? I'm just not bothering to answer such nonsense. Keep on trolling and be reported.


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## arctic_carlos

More pictures of the new rolling stock of Lleida - La Pobla de Segur line.



Vignole said:


> Fotos sacadas de la web lleidalapobla.fgc.cat
> 
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## Suburbanist

Where is that gorge?


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Here:

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.0445743,0.880838,2686m/data=!3m1!1e3

Between the stations of Àger and Cellers. The gorge is called "Congost de Terradets". It's quite impressive.


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## gincan

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Here:
> 
> https://www.google.es/maps/@42.0445743,0.880838,2686m/data=!3m1!1e3
> 
> Between the stations of Àger and Cellers. The gorge is called "Congost de Terradets". It's quite impressive.


And 10 km to the west there is an even more impressive gorge called Mont-rebei with a hiking trail cut into the rock, I think it is the most scenic in all of Spain alongside Caminito del Rey.


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## Suburbanist

These gorges remind me of the Canion de Añalisco, which I drove through some years ago.


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> These gorges remind me of the Canion de Añalisco, which I drove through some years ago.



off-topic
Cañon de Añisclo is narrower indeed. It is the only one way road I know in Spain for several months (sometimes some road can be one way in the morning and back in the afternoon, but not the same direction for so long).

It is entirely inside a national park (and was dangered to be damned!!!!! in the 70s)

Hope you enjoyed there. Next time do not hesitate to ask for info.


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## arctic_carlos

A video and some pictures of the new trains in Lleida - La Pobla de Segur FGC line, taken yesterday on its official first trip (regular service starts today). 



Sky said:


>





Betelgeuse said:


> Del Facebook de la PTP:


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## Sunfuns

Looks like a good sightseeing route if I ever happen to be in that area.


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## Tågälskaren

A bit sensational title but can any spanish forumer confirm this?

*
EU KILLS OFF Spain's dream of high-speed trains and orders it to PAY BACK £117million*

THE EU has ordered Spain to pay back €140million (£117million) in state aid it has already forked out on a high-speed train test centre[...]


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## Gag Halfrunt

^^ They don't seem to realise that Spain already has high speed rail, otherwise they wouldn't call it a "dream" and wouldn't think it could be killed off entirely by a dispute over a test centre. 

The article quotes a European Commission spokesperson as saying ""There does not appear to be any interest in the market to develop products that run at such high speeds" but there is no mention of what speeds the spokesperson is referring to. If you don't realise that Spain already has high speed rail, such details might not seem important.


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## AlexNL

The testing centre was intended for trains which run at speeds of up to 520 km/h. Nobody in the world wants that, even the Chinese have slowed down their bullet trains.


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## Richard_P

AlexNL said:


> The testing centre was intended for trains which run at speeds of up to 520 km/h. Nobody in the world wants that, even the Chinese have slowed down their bullet trains.


 Yes but the maximum speed is constantly rising and at present there are talks about 400 km/h trains so 520 km/h mark isn't such far away. Apart from that I don't get EC statement that there are enough facilities for testing of HS trains, it is quite the opposite, the fastest track in Czech Velim enables 230 km/h tests, similar facility in Faurei Romania offers 200 km/h meanwhile Siemens facility in Wegberg-Wildenrath only 160 km/h. So there isn't any facility which enables tests of speeds above that while for example Italy to certify its ETR1000 to 360 km/h operations was requiring test runs with almost 400 km/h! So to my understanding test circuit in Spain would be very useful but it would impact German interests in that matter and thus isn't desirable by EC.


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## Metred

Talgo _Picasso_ doing the service between Málaga and Bilbao crossing La Rioja.


Alvia (Talgo) "Picasso" Málaga-Bilbao en San Felices (La Rioja) by Jose Ignacio Esnarriaga San Jose, en Flickr


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## arctic_carlos

FGV (_Ferrocarrils de la Generalitat Valenciana_, Valencia region-owned railways) announced last week the immediate (albeit temporary) closure of Calp - Dénia section of the Alicante - Dénia narow gauge line due to the impossibility to assure the necessary safety conditions.

In fact, the line was supposed to be closed in October this year to start upgrade works, but according to FGV it was impossible to continue operating train services without reducing the maximum speed of the line from 80 km/h to 40 km/h. Therefore, train services on that section of the line have been suspended and replaced by buses until works are completed. Reopening of the whole line is expected in 2018, although a partial reopening between Calp and Teulada could take place once works on that section are completed next year.

At least the section between Altea and Calp has already been upgraded (it was closed between October 2015 and May 2016), so the effects of the closure don't affect a bigger part of the line. In any case, it's bad news they couldn't wait until the end of the summer season to close the line.

From the Subways and Urban Transport sub-forum:



vichase said:


> Closed L9 since yesterday between Calpe and Dénia: Too poor security conditions.
> 
> Temporarily suspended rail service between Calp - Dénia.
> 
> 
> Between Benidorm and Altea was upgraded (platforms and tracks) in 2008
> Between October 2015 and May the section Altea - Calpe was upgraded too.
> In October begins the upgrade works in the closed section.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=134413051&postcount=158


Official press release (in Spanish):



> *EL CONSEJO DE ADMINISTRACIÓN DE FGV ACUERDA SUSPENDER EL SERVICIO DE TREN CALP-DÉNIA DE LA L9 HASTA QUE SE REALICEN LAS OBRAS DE ACONDICIONAMIENTO*
> 
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> http://www.fgv.es/el-consejo-de-adm...e-se-realicen-las-obras-de-acondicionamiento/


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## 437.001

*VINTAGE IMAGES.*

Interesting video showing a partially lost area of the Barcelona rail network.

It's the old section of what now is called line *R1*, *between Estació de França and Sant Adrià de Besòs*, through the *old Poble Nou station*. It was closed in 1991.

You can see many class 440 (now class 470) and 436 EMU's, but also a few Talgo trains (they used to have their depot at Poble Nou station), and a few freight trains, and class 269.2, 304 and 319 locomotives.

This area is now completely redeveloped, and Estació de França still works, but without any northbound train and almost half the platforms it used to have. You can see images of that station before and during the upgrade works.


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## 437.001

*VINTAGE IMAGES.*

A lovely Spanish TV documentary from 1978 about the last surviving passenger steam railway in Western Europe, the legendary *Ponferrada-Villablino line*.

The line, after being dieselized in the 1980's, was sadly closed a few years ago. 
There's a plan to reinstate it as a heritage railway, but the prospects aren't looking very good (not a lot of money, and local politicians not being interested)... 

If you understand Spanish, it's well worth a listen too. Quite telling of how much Spain has changed in 40 years.


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## 00Zy99

I believe that there are some narrow-gauge commuter lines in what was West Germany that still use steam to this day.


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## Coccodrillo

The narrow gauge Villablino-Ponferrada line was recently closed but in the last years (decades?) it was used only to transport coal from a mine to a power station. The connection to the broad gauge line and the Ponferrada main station was, I think, closed well before.

In Germany there is the Harz narrow gauge network still using steam trains (but also diesel railcars and bimode electric and diesel tram-trains), however that's for touristic reasons, not because of the lack of alternatives.

http://www.hsb-wr.de/
http://www.harzbahn.de/
http://www.harzer-schmalspurbahn.de/
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harzer_Schmalspurbahnen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harz_Narrow_Gauge_Railways

However, from time to time a practical use of a steam locomotive is found. Recently some work trains on the Arth-Rigi rack railway in Switzerland were run with steam engines, because the overhead line had to be repaired but there were no operable diesel locomotives at the time. These steam engines usually only run historic trains.

Steam locos in regular service (= not because of tourists or special cases like the Rigi) might be found only in some Chinese coal mines nowasays.


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## 437.001

00Zy99 said:


> I believe that there are some narrow-gauge commuter lines in what was West Germany that still use steam to this day.


West or East Germany? :sly:

I think there are one or two lines in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, but if I'm not mistaken, I think they're heritage railways.


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## 00Zy99

437.001 said:


> West or East Germany? :sly:
> 
> I think there are one or two lines in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, but if I'm not mistaken, I think they're heritage railways.


Yeah, I was thinking of Dresden. My bad. Though they do apparently have some commuter traffic.


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## Metred

*Steam locomotive "Aurrera" in the preserved track of the historical line of the Urola river (Basque Country)*


La "Aurrera". by Alejandro Martínez, en Flickr


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## Suburbanist

I read on a headline alert that a mixed-gauge train just crash ed in Galicia with severe derailment. Any more precise information on that?


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Not exactly. It was an Iberian gauge Portuguese train going from Vigo to Porto. Unfortunately the train crash has left a death toll of 4 people.


----------



## Harbornite

> At least four people are feared to have died after a train derailed in northern Spain.
> 
> Several others were injured as train crashed at O Porriño station in the north-western province of Galicia at 9:30am local time.
> 
> The regional government's president, Alberto Nunez Feijoo, told reporters at the scene that the train's Portuguese engineer and Spanish ticket collector were among the dead, as well as two passengers, one of whom died in hospital.
> 
> Rescue crews searching through the wreckage suspect there may be a fifth victim inside a car, he said.
> 
> A witness told the Levante newspaper the train - which was en route to Porto in Portugal - began to derail as it arrived at the station and collided with a tower at the side of the track.
> 
> The emergency services attended the scene along with several air ambulances.
> 
> The train was made up of three carriages with the first one came completely off the track. The other carriages came partially off the track.
> 
> The Spanish rail network, Renfe, confirmed the incident on Twitter and expressed its condolences towards the victims and their families.
> 
> Adif railway construction company said it has opened an investigation into the cause of the derailment which occurred on a straight stretch of track.
> 
> Local political parties tweeted to expressed its condolences and announced they had suspended campaigning ahead of the upcoming local parliamentary elections for the day as a mark of respect.
> 
> There were approximately 60 passengers on board when the accident happened.
> 
> The train is owned by Portugese rail company Comboios de Portugal.
> 
> In 2013, 79 people were killed in Spain's worst rail disaster when a high-speed Renfe train went off the tracks and slammed into a wall near Santiago de Compostela, in Galicia.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/spain-train-derailment-dead-a7233391.html

May the victims rest in peace.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Judging from the photos it seems to be one of the Class 592 DMU which RENFE leased to CP.


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> Judging from the photos it seems to be one of the Class 592 DMU which RENFE leased to CP.


Correct. But the older stock, class 592.0 DMU's.

4 dead (2 Spanish -one of them the controller, the other a young driver apprentice-, 1 Portuguese -the driver-, 1 American -a passenger-). 
Among the injured, Spaniards, Americans, Portuguese, Brazilians, Argentines, Uruguayans, Chileans, Brits, Filipinos, and Germans.

The reasons are still unclear, but excessive speed seems the most likely.
The train driver should have been aware that the train was to run on platform 3 as there were works at Porriño station. Was he? That question is important.

However, the thing that made the train derail, and the fact that the two other cars didn't derail -or not completely-, are strange to me. I find it odd.

The train had recently passed extensive maintenance tests, and the Portuguese driver knew the line perfectly.

The points seem to have done ok. 

Maybe a stone, a cat or a rabbit, plus excessive speed? :hmm:

Time will tell...


----------



## arctic_carlos

Short video of an Adif testing train today near Salamanca:



Albe®to said:


> Ha estado la BT 2 esta mañana en Salamanca.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=135642614&postcount=2623


----------



## Suburbanist

How many gauge-change points does ADIF operate?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Today there are 20 gauge changers in Spain, 5 of them are operational but not commercial use. 4 of them were reused from another location. Others 4 will be opened -were expected- in 2017.

In 2015 there were 30,646 steps per gauge changer, 83.96 per day and 6.72 per operating gauge changer. I hope High Speed Rail Corporation of India read this.

Full list, types of gauge changers, etc. in the Wikipedia (in Spanish).
If you have any questions do not hesitate to ask.


----------



## Gusiluz

Well, I wrote Spain when I should have put ADIF. In Wikipedia is the list of CAF and Talgo gauge changers in workshops and one experimental for goods.


----------



## alserrod

Have you got in your account Huesca one as out of service?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ It was as simple as clicking on the Wikipedia link and read the first few lines:

Huesca: no commercial service since 28/04/2008.

In the same situation are Irún, Alcolea de Córdoba, Albacete and Medina del Campo (not medina high speed, which is another one that is in service). Medina del Campo gauge changer It is offline on one side of the HS network, but in an extreme case, it could go into a HST from Madrid through in the Olmedo maintenance base. Very slowly, yes.


----------



## Metred

En route to Irun through Gipuzkoa


449 by firedmanager, en Flickr


----------



## Metred

Trans-Cantabric railway near Arija (Castile)


Transcantábrico Arija by Marcos Maté, en Flickr


----------



## 00Zy99

Is that the El Transcantabrico luxury train?


----------



## mensolú

Harbornite said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/spain-train-derailment-dead-a7233391.html
> 
> May the victims rest in peace.


The Independent speaks of the accident taking place in O Porriño, a station in the north-western *province* of Galicia. Galicia is not a province but a region. A common mistake by foreigners.


----------



## arctic_carlos

00Zy99 said:


> Is that the El Transcantabrico luxury train?


Yes, it is. Although in this picture the train is on the León - Bilbao narrow gauge line, not in the coastal line (Bilbao - Ferrol).


----------



## Suburbanist

I like the plan to bring rail to La Linea. I still wished they connected Andalucía with Algarve


----------



## 437.001

Metred said:


> That's interesting. Do we know if it would be located where the old track was?


That's definitely one of the options.

However, some parts would need to be modified due to environmental reasons (the old line used tu run through what nowadays is a natural preserved site).



Metred said:


> Torrevieja old station building still exists


But won't be reused. Any Torrevieja station, be it next to the old one or in an entirely new site, will be underground. There's simply no more room.



Metred said:


> and most of the track has been replaced with either small roads or bicycle roads but perhaps could be re-adapted.


The trackbed between San Isidro-Albatera and Los Montesinos can be rebuilt, and that, even though most of it was transformed into a motorway. 
But there's still a lot of room to build new tracks next to it (or even in the middle of it, as in the line from Athens to its airport).

However, other options shouldn't be discarded, it's too soon to tell.
And it'll still take many years anyway, and that even if it ever got the go-ahead (which is still not 100% sure).


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> I like the plan to bring rail to La Linea. I still wished they connected Andalucía with Algarve


Until 1992 Huelva hadn't road connection with Portugal!!!!!, planning a new line is not easy at all


----------



## 437.001

alserrod said:


> Until 1992 Huelva hadn't road connection with Portugal!!!!!,


That has more to do with political inabilities than with technical unfeasability.



alserrod said:


> planning a new line is not easy at all


It isn't particularly complicated. It's more of an issue of not attracting enough passengers all year round.
Southern Portugal is not very much populated.


----------



## Neb81

437.001 said:


> :speech: *News:*
> -a *plan for a potential reopening of the Albatera-Torrevieja line (on the Costa Blanca) is being studied*. It closed in 1970 for passengers, and in 1985 to all traffic. But Torrevieja is one of the biggest Spanish cities without railway. Presumably, the line would see commuter rail to Elche and Alicante, plus (maybe) some long-distance Alvia services to Madrid. Crucially this would be cheaper than the Costa del Sol plan. On the down side, the Torrevieja mayor seems to be a bit nimby, although he says he wants the railway back in town.


If it happens, then woohoo! :banana:

Torrevieja desperately needs a rail link. A cercanias service into Alicante would be fantastic, especially if it could get decent frequency (say every 30 minutes?) which would also make people Elche very happy. 

But, I suspect the single track mainline might run into capacity issues, given it's already heavily used by both the C1 line, regional and talgo services. It'd likely need double tracking (as well as the electrification) at least as far as the junction from Alicante, which would be a huge cost, given the Elche tunnel. 

In an ideal world, I'd say it's worthwhile building that cost into a wholesale upgrade of the classic line between Alicante and Murcia so C1 and C3 can run as modern, high frequency EMU services, but I just don't see it happening anytime soon/ever.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ I don't know if you're aware that between Albatera and Murcia the classic line is currently being doubled and electrified as part of the HSL Monforte del Cid - Murcia, which also means that it will be regauged to standard gauge. Therefore, between Alicante and Albatera the classic line is also to be regauged and electrified, in order to allow through service on the classic line, but nobody knows if that will happen anytime soon, so maybe the current Alicante - Murcia services will be split in two requiring a change of trains in Albatera as a temporary solution. 

In any case, doubling between Alicante and east of Elche depends on the construction of the new alignment of the line via the airport. Doubling the urban tunnel of Elche would be quite costly, so I don't know whether that will even happen. Finally, between west of Elche and Crevillente the line is supposed to be rerouted via the new Elche station on the HSL. All of that is quite a mess, actually, as there has been an obvious lack of planning.

But I agree with you that the reopening of the railway connection with Torrevieja should be a priority. In an ideal world, there would be from Alicante a 30 minute frequency to Torrevieja and a 30 minute frequency to Murcia, leaving the common stretch with a 15 minute frequency via the airport and Elche.


----------



## Neb81

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ I don't know if you're aware that between Albatera and Murcia the classic line is currently being doubled and electrified as part of the HSL Monforte del Cid - Murcia, which also means that it will be regauged to standard gauge. Therefore, between Alicante and Albatera the classic line is also to be regauged and electrified, in order to allow through service on the classic line, but nobody knows if that will happen anytime soon, so maybe the current Alicante - Murcia services will be split in two requiring a change of trains in Albatera as a temporary solution.
> 
> In any case, doubling between Alicante and east of Elche depends on the construction of the new alignment of the line via the airport. Doubling the urban tunnel of Elche would be quite costly, so I don't know whether that will even happen. Finally, between west of Elche and Crevillente the line is supposed to be rerouted via the new Elche station on the HSL. All of that is quite a mess, actually, as there has been an obvious lack of planning.
> 
> But I agree with you that the reopening of the railway connection with Torrevieja should be a priority. In an ideal world, there would be from Alicante a 30 minute frequency to Torrevieja and a 30 minute frequency to Murcia, leaving the common stretch with a 15 minute frequency via the airport and Elche.


Thanks for the heads up! I knew something was going on along there, but couldn't figure it out. If the classic line is being re-gauged - I guess to become to the LAV(?) - then what will become of the cercanias and other classic services? I can't see them being able to share track with AVEs, without completely killing capacity, or is it going to be four standard gauge lines? (twin track standard gauge locals, plus twin track LAV as well)


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Exactly, AVE and Cercanías will share the two tracks, so there will probably be capacity problems if traffic increases. However, it's not clear yet how the line will be exploited (two single tracks, one in each gauge, or a double track in standard gauge).


----------



## Neb81

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Exacy, AVE and Cercanías will share the two tracks, so there will probably be capacity problems ig traffic increases. However, it's not clear yet how the line will be exploited (two single tracks, one in each gauge, or a double track in standard gauge).


Do we know how it's going to work around Elche, as I thought the new line swung way north of the city to join up with the Alicante-Madrid line at Monforte? Or do they intend to keep the classic route as well? Really hope the classic alignment is kept as well, as Elche really needs the stations in the city centre, and it'd be nice to keep the options open for an airport line in the future.


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ The current alignment through Elche will be kept for sure, but just for commuter trains on the Alicante - Murcia C1 line.

The new station for high speed trains (AVE) in Elche will be located a few kilometers west of the city itself, halfway between Elche and Crevillente, and sadly not connected to the classic line. 

As you correctly point out, a new standard-gauge HSL is being built between Monforte del Cid and west of Elche (in a place called Realengo, to be more precise), where it joins the classic line Alicante - Murcia which is being modernized from there up to Murcia. 

As I mentioned in my previous posts, it's not clear yet how everything will operate in the short term regarding different gauges and electric/diesel services. But in the long term, the classic line through Elche is to be electrified and regauged, as well as rerouted through Alicante airport (and doubled between Torrellano and Alicante). That's the only way to continue operating Cercanías services between Alicante and Murcia as well as the new high speed services.


----------



## Neb81

I get it now. Thanks for that


----------



## krisu99

[delete - double post]


----------



## krisu99

Since we're talking about the Murcia HSL: 
What is this short stub from which the HSL swings away? 

--> http://www.retrofutur.org/retrofutu...00966209541615,-1.0234236677017634)&mt=hybrid

Could it be that they changed plans after works had already begun: Instead of continuing the HSL straight away they have chosen a new alignment further north?


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ You're probably right. The section of HSL west of that point opened some time ago (2008 IIRC) in Iberian gauge and it was clearly designed when the rest of the alignment hadn't been decided yet.


----------



## 437.001

krisu99 said:


> Since we're talking about the Murcia HSL:
> What is this short stub from which the HSL swings away?
> 
> --> http://www.retrofutur.org/retrofutu...00966209541615,-1.0234236677017634)&mt=hybrid
> 
> Could it be that they changed plans after works had already begun: Instead of continuing the HSL straight away they have chosen a new alignment further north?


You are right, and I don't even need to look at what it is to know what you mean.

The planning of the HSL/upgrade/thingy between Alicante and Murcia (and Almeria) has been just atrocious.


----------



## 437.001

:speech: *News!*

The ministry has issued a press release about the *Palencia to Santander line*.

It says that it will be upgraded and double-tracked between Santander and Torrelavega, among other things.

The new minister for Infrastructure is from Santander. :|


----------



## arctic_carlos

*Lleida - La Pobla de Segur FGC line*

In October 2016 the number of passengers has seen an increase of 200% compared with October 2015 (that is to say, the number of passengers has tripled, from 5,000 to 15,000).

Cross-posting from the Catalan sub-forum in the Spanish forum (credits to *Vignole*):



Vignole said:


> En octubre han usado la linea 15.600 viajeros, lo que supone triplicar las cifras de octubre de 2015 .
> 
> 191475176
> 
> Fuente: http://www.balaguer.tv/el-tren-de-la-pobla-arriba-als-15-000-passatgers-mensuals/
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=136683151&postcount=539


----------



## Attus

arctic_carlos said:


> In October 2016 the number of passengers has seen an increase of 200% compared with October 2015 (that is to say, the number of passengers has tripled, from 5,000 to 15,000).
> 
> Cross-posting from the Catalan sub-forum in the Spanish forum (credits to *Vignole*):


Sorry, I'm not sure what that figure mean. 15,600 passangers in a month (i.e. approx. 500 a day)? Both directions?


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ It's the total amount of passengers (i.e. in both ways).

500 passengers a day might still be a low figure, but it used to be much worse (160 passengers a day on average).

The new trains and the new schedules have been so far a great success, given the characteristics of the line, of course.


----------



## Attus

I see, thank you!


----------



## Coccodrillo

Thank you. I understand that Osuna and Pedrera will both keep their existing stations. According to Google Maps the section from Osuna to Marchena should also be easily connectable to the existing line in Marchena. They could use it replacing the old alignment. I see that the line east of Pedrera already uses the HSL.

There are still no serious plans to regauge the network, right? How is the project to regauge/put double gauge tracks on the Tarragona-Valencia line?


----------



## alsama

Coccodrillo said:


> Thank you. I understand that Osuna and Pedrera will both keep their existing stations.


Pedrera
https://goo.gl/maps/knzEizKtmJF2

9 Km

Osuna
https://goo.gl/maps/GsTqm8c5qKu


----------



## arctic_carlos

Coccodrillo said:


> Thank you. I understand that Osuna and Pedrera will both keep their existing stations.


Right. Both Osuna and Pedrera already have partially-built stations on the unused HSL, but for the moment they'll keep their existing station (the HSL will only be used from east of Osuna to west of Pedrera).



Coccodrillo said:


> According to Google Maps the section from Osuna to Marchena should also be easily connectable to the existing line in Marchena. They could use it replacing the old alignment.


It would make sense, and now that we have a precedent (Osuna - Pedrera), it should be easier to lobby for that option, keeping the existing stations in Marchena and Osuna but using the HSL between them.



Coccodrillo said:


> There are still no serious plans to regauge the network, right? How is the project to regauge/put double gauge tracks on the Tarragona-Valencia line?


The regauging should take place in the lines considered part of European Corridors before 2030. Let's see if they make it. There are ongoing works to put mixed gauge between Castellbisbal (close to Barcelona) and Vila-Seca (close to Tarragona), for freight trains. Then Vila-Seca - Castellón will be completely regauged, and there's already mixed gauge between Castellón and Valencia. Given the current speed of the works, it will take at least 2-3 years until everything is done...


----------



## krisu99

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Yes. The old line won't be reopened between Osuna and Pedrera, but a parallel section of the unused Sevilla - Antequera HSL will be used instead.



It is very cool that they finally finish (at least a part of) this HSL line, which was pushed years ago by the regional council as "Transversal de Andalucia", but not ADIF which is the central state agency.

The reason why they now resume the works is however due to the fact that a bridge near Aguadulce of the old line got destroyed by heavy flooding, and the parallel HSL line simply provides its own intact but unused bridge.

The concept and it future options is laid out in detail by the (unfortunately mostly inactive) web blog geotren:
http://www.geotren.es/blog/propuest...a-infraestructura-antequera-marchena-sevilla/

(BTW, read the article about how problematic mixed gauge tracks and signalling is - well done research, quite interesting)

Because resuming works on this "abandoned" HSL was quite a surprise, I updated the NRIOP Spain map, the red line represents the now U/C section, the pink lines mean works abandoned for many years. Is it correct?

http://www.retrofutur.org/retrofutu....19262987012181,-5.054835586132754)&mt=hybrid


----------



## arctic_carlos

krisu99 said:


> Because resuming works on this "abandoned" HSL was quite a surprise, I updated the NRIOP Spain map, the red line represents the now U/C section, the pink lines mean works abandoned for many years. Is it correct?
> 
> http://www.retrofutur.org/retrofutu....19262987012181,-5.054835586132754)&mt=hybrid


Yes, it is correct. You could also change the status of the so-called Camarillas bypass line (the pink section on the map between Agramón and Cieza stations on the Albacete - Murcia classic line). Construction is almost completed and the new line will open by late March. At the same time, the existing line via Calasparra will be closed.


----------



## Sunfuns

arctic_carlos said:


> Yes, it is correct. You could also change the status of the so-called Camarillas bypass line (the pink section on the map between Agramón and Cieza stations on the Albacete - Murcia classic line). Construction is almost completed and the new line will open by late March. At the same time, the existing line via Calasparra will be closed.


Could you maybe comment more on this project. I was not aware of it's existence and imminent completion. From Google maps seems like a significant shortening. Only Calasparra station will be lost, right?

Actually is this line electrified?


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ The goal of this project is to reduce the distance between Murcia and Albacete (the new line between Cieza and Agramón is 16 km shorter than the old one), as well as to get rid of the problematic section of line along the Camarillas reservoir, which is prone to landslides.

Construction started 10 years ago, but was suspended in 2011 when the line was almost complete, of course due to tack of funding. They restarted the works a couple of years ago, thanks to the Port Authority of Cartagena paying the required funds nuts, as the new line will benefit freight trains serving the Cartagena port.


----------



## Sunfuns

Ok, clear. Every improvement like this is valuable. However in the near future the fastest Madrid-Murcia passenger trains will go on the new line via Alicante, right?


----------



## arctic_carlos

Sunfuns said:


> Ok, clear. Every improvement like this is valuable. However in the near future the fastest Madrid-Murcia passenger trains will go on the new line via Alicante, right?


They will use the Madrid - Alicante HSL up to Monforte del Cid junction (20 km west of Alicante), where the new HSL Monforte del Cid - Murcia (via Elche and Orihuela) starts.

There could be Madrid - Alicante - Murcia services, but the 40 km detour to enter Alicante station would be a little annoying for passengers going to Murcia. That's why under current planning, Madrid - Murcia services will skip Alicante. On the contrary, Barcelona - Murcia services will go via Alicante, as they do now.


----------



## Gusiluz

We are talking about many topics and, furthermore, I think the question that started this conversation was another:


JumpUp said:


> Is there any News about the re-opening of *the line Antequera to Algeciras* and the Sevilla - Malaga Antequera classic line? Both lines are still closed because of storm.
> 
> How big is the damage? Any photos or information online?


*Algeciras-Bobadilla (Antequera) line*
La línea de tren Bobadilla-Algeciras estará inoperativa al menos tres meses. Málaga Hoy from October 28










Canyailla said:


> Se está trabajando intensamente desde el primer momento. Primero para rehabilitar la línea y caminos adyacentes y poder trasladar allí maquinaria pesada, que ya está en la zona.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paralelamente se ha elaborado un proyecto de viaducto que va a tener nada menos que 85 metros con tres vanos de luces entre apoyos de 25, 35 y otros 25 metros, respectivamente, con una altura máxima de pila de 17 metros.
> 
> Al mismo tiempo Adif ha pedido presupuesto a una empresa constructora de una estructura metálica que será la que apoye en las pilas del viaducto.
> ...
> La enorme torrentera que se desató se llevó por delante el terraplén y ensanchó la pequeña vaguada hasta convertirla en ese socavón enorme de 17 metros de profundidad.
> 
> Según he sabido, ya están con la cimentación de las pilas del nuevo viaducto, cuyo tablero metálico de celosía se va a fabricar para colocarlo a continuación.
> 
> La foto que he insertado es del día 11 de diciembre y ya permite ver el movimiento de tierra que se ha realizado para la hinca de los pilas laterales.
> 
> El problema para llevar allí la maquinaria pesada ha sido notable porque no hay carreteras que lleguen al lugar: sólo la vía férrea y caminos que estaban destrozados.
> 
> La terminación de la obra será en la primavera de 2019 (más a menos a abril o mayo).


The damages of the *Seville-Antequera line* are already perfectly explained; just add that it was one of Geotren's engineers who pointed out in SSC (and in the media) the possibility of using the finished platform.
I put plans.




It is planned to build the Córdoba bypass (alternative A: 1,853 km) that is on the map in 2020.
20 minutes and 37.3 km less with the Variante de Almodóvar and 55 minutes less with the Andalusian Transversal Axis (if Sevilla-Marchena is finished)



Coccodrillo said:


> ...
> There are still no serious plans to regauge the network, right? How is the project to regauge/put double gauge tracks on the Tarragona-Valencia line?


Neither serious nor in jest: nothing. 

*Tarragona-Valencia*
There are two parts: Vilaseca (near Tarragona)-Castellón: new line with Iberian gauge in 2019 and Castellón-Valencia: mixed gauge in one of the tracks in service and works in the other until 2020/2021. There is also a new HSR project between Castellón and Valencia. On the other hand mixed gauge is being installed in the Castellbisbal-Vilaseca line, when it is finished (2020) it will change gauge to standard from Vilaseca-Castellón; It will be the first conventional line where trains with Iberian gauge will not be able to run, the freight trains of Zaragoza will go through Teruel and Sagunto.


*Variante de Camarillas* (Murcia)

The line will be cut from March 2 to 20 for reliability tests, simulations in the tunnels and trainers training.

The line not be electrified, its main traffic will be the freight trains although it is being used with hybrid trains (S-730) between Madrid and Murcia due to the the construction of the new underground station of the latter. That, and what about the Madrid-Murcia trains for Alicante I will comment on the Spain HSR Thread.

A very *interesting map with all the lines under construction in Spain* made by a participant in SSC: *Gabri999*


----------



## JumpUp

Thank-you very much for all your explanation!

Is there currently passenger traffic on the old line Cordoba - Malaga (via Montilla)?
I can't find any trains running on that classic line. Is there flood damage as well or is the old line simply not to be used any longer?

Thanks!


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ It doesn't have any passenger traffic between Córdoba and Fuente de Piedra, the regional trains Córdoba - Bobabilla were discontinued 6-7 years ago and all long-distance traffic uses the HSL.

Between Fuente de Piedra and Málaga, regional trains Sevilla - Málaga use that line.


----------



## 437.001

On another note, good news in Mallorca.
They've finished the electrification plan. 
Now all lines in Mallorca are electrified. 

Electrification from S'Enllaç to Sa Pobla completed (29/Oct/2018):








Electrification from S'Enllaç to Manacor completed (08/Jan/2019):


----------



## Suburbanist

Are there any railway future plans in Tenerife, or just trams?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ There are plans for a commuter line called Tren del Sur (in spanish).


> A train that will travel the northeast coast, until arriving at the south. It will start at the Transport Interchange of Santa Cruz de Tenerife, and its last stop will be in Adeje.
> It will be operated by Metropolitano de Tenerife, a company that also operates with the Tenerife Tramway.
> The works were expected to start in 2010, and to be inaugurated in 2017. However, at the end of 2011 the project was halted for economic reasons, but it was resumed at the end of 2017, where it has already begun to be written the projects; and in 2019 it is planned to begin expropriations of the plots affected by the project.


----------



## Castor_Game

SPAIN - THE TRAIN AS AN ARTISTIC, TOURIST, LANDSCAPE OR MERELY RAILWAY REFERENCE

_VALLADOLID: RENFE S-114 AVANT (MADRID-SEGOVIA-VALLADOLID/VALLADOLID-SEGOVIA-MADRID)_

ARTISTIC AND RAILWAY REFERENCE

Lugar de Partida by Ivan Arribas, en Flickr


----------



## Castor_Game

SPAIN - THE TRAIN AS AN ARTISTIC, TOURIST, LANDSCAPE OR MERELY RAILWAY REFERENCE

_DUESAIGÜES (TARRAGONA): RENFE S-448 CATALUNYA EXPRESS (BARCELONA-ZARAGOZA/ZARAGOZA-BARCELONA - EXTINGUISHING SERVICE)_

LANDSCAPE AND RAILWAY REFERENCE

Catalunya Express en Duesaigües. by M250.029, en Flickr


----------



## alserrod

Last picture can be seen perfectly from not far from here

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.128...4!1sRcW5z5ga3_PCwIWGdY9UVw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

a bit far from spotted picture but you could see a lot of this railway in that area and on back, all coast (and railway, highway and so on, parallel to coast)


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## 437.001

Castor_Game said:


> SPAIN - THE TRAIN AS AN ARTISTIC, TOURIST, LANDSCAPE OR MERELY RAILWAY REFERENCE
> 
> _DUESAIGÜES (TARRAGONA): RENFE S-448 CATALUNYA EXPRESS (BARCELONA-ZARAGOZA/ZARAGOZA-BARCELONA - EXTINGUISHING SERVICE)_
> 
> LANDSCAPE AND RAILWAY REFERENCE


Firstly, this is not a photo thread, nor a photo forum. You know where the photo forum is, within SSC.

Secondly, on which grounds do you claim that the Zaragoza-Barcelona regional services are "extinguishing services"?

You clearly don't know what you're talking.

Go spam somewhere else. We will not give you any likes.

Insist and be reported.


----------



## alserrod

That's true. 

I wonder why "extinguishing service"

Only halted service is (usually) 1-2 months every summer to enlarge and upgrade current tunnels... but there are two daily Barcelona-Zaragoza trains, one Barcelona-Caspe, one Zaragoza-Mora, several Barcelona-Reus-Flix crossing that point in addition to freight trains.

In the past, one long distance Madrid-Barcelona went via this point. The rest went via Lerida


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## EMArg

Next page ->


----------



## EMArg

*Barcelona-Sants Station*


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## EMArg

^^


Video:


----------



## EMArg

*Barcelona: Estació de França ("France Station") *


----------



## EMArg

^^


Video:


----------



## EMArg

Barcelona: traveling on train between *El Prat International Airport* and *Sants Station*


----------



## alserrod

In some post we wrote about "equinoccio tunnel"
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9943614,-0.0258195,2462m/data=!3m1!1e3

It is in former Val de Zafan line, between La Puebla de Hijar and Tortosa and quite near to Valdealgorfa station.

I have visited it. Obviously it wasn't so stunning as seeing sunshine in the other corner... but we are in August.

It is quite easy to reach station. Lanes are asphalted (they are streets indeed) despite you will need google maps or so. No signs about it.

From station to tunnel it is no more than 200m

Tunnel is forbidden to be crossed. It is lined east-west, therefore, on 21st March ant 21st September, at 7:00 and 19:00 (aprox) you can see how sun appears in the other corner despite it is 2 km long.

There was a fence but... weird, opened for pedestrians and bikes even if forbidden. I do not know if someone wanna cross a 2 km tunnel without light (anywhere, at any moment you can see both corners but I do not know how it is inside tunnel).

Hope to upload some pictures soon


----------



## EMArg

Following next, a quick view at some of the trains and locomotives of Renfe in different spanish stations:


----------



## EMArg

^^


Video:


----------



## EMArg

Traveling from *Barcelona* to *Madrid* in the High-Speed AVE


----------



## EMArg

*Madrid*: at the Atocha Station


----------



## EMArg

^^


Video:


----------



## RGR 523

Chemins de fer de la généralité de Catalogne (FGC).

(Ferrocarrils de la Generalitat de Catalunya).



> *Les FGC modernisent leur matériel fret*
> 
> Au salon SIL Logistic à Barcelone, les Chemins de fer de la généralité de Catalogne (FGC) ont présenté le 27 juin 2019 leur plan de renouvellement de leur matériel fret. Ils vont acquérir pour 30 millions d’euros cinq locomotives bimodes à voie de 1 000 mm de type Co’Co’fonctionnant en 1 500 V par caténaire et équipées d’un moteur diesel satisfaisant aux normes classe V en matière d’émission.
> 
> Ces nouvelles locomotives remplaceront les trois locs diesels série 254 type GM JT 18 LC 2 D construites en 1990 par le constructeur espagnol Macosa, devenu Stadler Rail, que les FGV utilisent actuellement en trafic fret. Avec ces locomotives bimodes, les FGC escomptent réduire leur consommation de carburant de 60 % et réduire leurs émissions de CO2 de 66 % et augmenter leurs capacités. Les FGC vont également commander pour 13,2 millions d’euros 66 wagons à voie métrique pour le transport de potasse.
> 
> En 2018, les FGC ont transporté environ 400 000 t de potasse entre les mines de Suria et Sallent et le port de Barcelone, et environ 95 000 automobiles entre l’usine Seat de Martorell et le port de Barcelone. Le réseau des FGC est composé de 140 km de lignes à voie métrique électrifiée en 1500V, 42 km de lignes à voie de 1 435 mm électrifiée en 1500V et 89 km de lignes à voie non électrifiée à écartement de 1 668 mm. Les FGC, appartenant à 100 % à la Généralité, exploitent également des trains de voyageurs dans la banlieue de Barcelone et sur Lerida – Pobla de Segur.L. L.
> 
> Rail Passion du samedi 7 septembre 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Un train de wagons vides de transport de potasse remorqué par la 254.03 du FGC va traverser la gare de Sant Vincenç dels Horts (6 mars 2019).


----------



## Khaul

FGC runs a few nice little railways. The standard gauge lines started as an American interurban, with Brill cars and street running through the centre of Barcelona and all. It evolved like similar Japanese lines, i.e. Keikyu, becoming an efficient suburban railway offering a metro-like service in the city.


----------



## EMArg

*Córdoba: Railway Station*






Córdoba Central was opened in 1994 replacing an older station. Córdoba is an important junction in the Spanish rail network, serving three AVE high-speed rail lines, connecting Madrid Atocha with Málaga, Seville and Granada; and conventional Iberian gauge lines hosting various Media and Larga Distancia services. Trains passing through Córdoba also connect to Cádiz, Barcelona Sants and Jaén.


----------



## EMArg

^^


Video:


----------



## EMArg

*Madrid: Chamartín Station*





Madrid Chamartín is the name of the second major railway station of Madrid. Positioned on the north side of the city, it was built between 1970 and 1975, although subsequent work would be carried on into the early 1980s. At that time it superseded Atocha station, located closer to the city centre. After Atocha itself was rebuilt in 1992, Chamartin lost much of its importance, even though since 2004 it has undergone changes to accommodate the new high-speed line to León. It hosts the railway networks connecting Madrid and north-western Spain, the AVE (high speed line) from Madrid to Segovia, Valladolid and León and many Cercanías lines (commuter rail), plus the international line to Lisbon. There are also connections with Atocha. Under the railway station there is a Metro Station (Chamartin) linking with lines 1 and 10 of the Madrid Metro, also for travelling to Madrid city centre.


----------



## EMArg

^^


Video:


----------



## Kolerus

Hi,

any news or tenders in Cercanías fleet? Or any investition to infrastructure in Catalunya (for example two track between Arenys and Maçanet)?

Thansk in advance


----------



## pai nosso

*Line Redondela-Pontevedra » Galicia – October of 2019

Cessantes-Redondela Stop*

1-


2-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*Line León»Oviedo [Castille & Leon] -- July of 2019*


1-


2-


3-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## JumpUp

Hello,

I am currently on holidays in Vigo, a town with two train stations. I have questions about Vigo-Urzáiz. It's a new, big underground station currently being build with a bus station and shopping mall.

Is it a terminus station? because I think only trains from the north (Santiago) can reach it. There is no curve or tunnel for trains from Portugal to reach that new station, so how will it be handled in the future fully opening the station? Will all trains from the south change direction to enter the tunnel to Vigo-Urzáiz? Or will those trains stay forever at the interim station at the harbour? Or will there be a south-exit direction Portugal be build in Vigo-Urzáiz?

THANKS


----------



## gincan

JumpUp said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am currently on holidays in Vigo, a town with two train stations. I have questions about Vigo-Urzáiz. It's a new, big underground station currently being build with a bus station and shopping mall.
> 
> Is it a terminus station? because I think only trains from the north (Santiago) can reach it. There is no curve or tunnel for trains from Portugal to reach that new station, so how will it be handled in the future fully opening the station? Will all trains from the south change direction to enter the tunnel to Vigo-Urzáiz? Or will those trains stay forever at the interim station at the harbour? Or will there be a south-exit direction Portugal be build in Vigo-Urzáiz?
> 
> THANKS


The plan is/was to build a tunnel to the south, that is why the station only has 6 tracks, it is no where near enough for a sack station even for a city the size of Vigo.


----------



## JumpUp

Heeey

after opening on the "Alacant - Murcia" high-speed rail: Will the old line (wide-gauge and non-electrified) via Torrellano + Elche (city) stay open? Or will it be closed?

thanks


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ It will stay open.

Thanks to Gusiluz, we have these wonderful track maps of the Monforte del Cid - Murcia HSL (blue is standard gauge, red is Iberian gauge, and green is mixed gauge):



Gusiluz said:


> ^^ ¡Muchísimas gracias por las fotos!
> 
> A ver si entre lo que tú ves y mis papeles hay alguna similitud:
> 
> Monforte-Murcia provisional V1:
> 
> 
> Monforte-Murcia provisional V2:
> 
> 
> Aunque lo más probable es que no sea ninguna de las dos versiones.


In the long term, the classic line will be changed to standard gauge and electrified, which means that the HSL and the classic line (commuter rail) will share the same two tracks between Murcia and San Isidro.


----------



## Jacky93

Can't believe the Torrevieja branch line reopening isn’t being seriously considered. Most of the track bed isn’t built over and could easily be reinstated?!

Shame about the Fuengirola-Marbella-Estepona line costing upwards of €2 billion, it would really benefit the Costa del Sol and link pretty sizeable towns to the wider rail network.

Tren de la Costa (Valencia-Denia-Alicante) should also be more seriously considered. I have relatives in Marina Alta area who literally never visit Alicante or Valencia because of lack of public transport to either from there.


----------



## JumpUp

THANKS!

Today I travelled on the new electrified railway Medina del Campo - Salamanca with the fast train Madrid - Salamanca! A great journey, very high speed and great travel time.

Why is there no third rail for Medina del Campo -> Salamanca? It's a heavy used destination and trains need to change gauge for last 30 minutes ...

Or will this be built in the future?


----------



## alserrod

I do not know, but I guess a catenary between Salamanca and Portugal worths more


----------



## Coccodrillo

JumpUp said:


> Or will this be built in the future?


I hope that in the future they will understand that it is better to convert all the network to standard gauge, and that putting dual gauge tracks (or one of each gauge) on every line is silly.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ You don't know how obnoxious, complicated and expensive it is to have two gauges for medium and long distance trains.

Maximum speed of 160 with a mixed gauge, platforms that do not fit both gauge, 16 gauge changers for daily use (plus those in workshops and those no longer in use), and 34,090 train passages through them by 2018 (last data I have): 93 every day.

I already said in the India thread that it was not a good idea to put HSR in standard gauge, but they did not listen to me.


----------



## davide84

At least in India they plan to build a completely separated network, I guess an untold part of the idea is to use the different gauge to preserve capacity from ever being allocated to non-HS services.

Spain is not going this way, which I think is the right choice, but the dual gauge is and will be for long a huge pain.

My feeling is that at some point most or all of long distance lines will have to be converted to standard gauge, leaving only cercanias with broad gauge. But that's just me watching a map from home... 🙂


----------



## arctic_carlos

Eventually the whole network will be converted to standard gauge. Cercanías lines cannot be left with broad gauge because they share tracks with long distance and freight services. 

Even though there are a few lines in Madrid and Barcelona which are exclusive to Cercanías, they share tracks in the main stations and city tunnels with other Cercanías lines that in its turn share tracks with freight and long distance services.


----------



## davide84

I didn't know they were so integrated... then I guess it will just be matter of time (decades, probably).


----------



## Coccodrillo

Most Spanish lines have a very low traffic (outside cercanías), and the break of gauge to France has reduced international freight traffic to negligible (I think it's around 3% rail vs 97% road). And national traffic isn't that much higher either, likely something around 5% of tons*km. By converting one track of double track lines, and using variable gauge bogies for some freight trains, and with temporary transhipment stations for containers and passengers, a conversion could be done quite quickly.

What would be the alternative? Waiting until freight traffic disappears? Buying thousand of variable gauge bogies and putting cambiadores everywhere the two gauges meet, which in the long term would be far more expensive?

However, we cannot forget that Portugal also uses broad gauge, and there there aren't HSLs where long distance traffic can go. Everythingmust be coordinated with Portugal.


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> I hope that in the future they will understand that it is better to convert all the network to standard gauge, and that putting dual gauge tracks (or one of each gauge) on every line is silly.


Indeed.



Gusiluz said:


> You don't know how obnoxious, complicated and expensive it is to have two gauges for medium and long distance trains.
> 
> Maximum speed of 160 with a mixed gauge, platforms that do not fit both gauge, 16 gauge changers for daily use (plus those in workshops and those no longer in use), and 34,090 train passages through them by 2018 (last data I have): 93 every day.
> 
> I already said in the India thread that it was not a good idea to put HSR in standard gauge, but they did not listen to me.


The difference is that India is so hugely populated that they basically need a totally separated high-speed network, and I think they can afford it.



davide84 said:


> My feeling is that at some point most or all of long distance lines will have to be converted to standard gauge, leaving only cercanias with broad gauge. But that's just me watching a map from home...





Coccodrillo said:


> However, we cannot forget that Portugal also uses broad gauge, and there there aren't HSLs where long distance traffic can go. Everythingmust be coordinated with Portugal.


Yes.

Actually Portugal began building its railway system in the 19th century with standard gauge, and had to change to Iberian for practical reasons.

It is time Spain changed its railway network to standard gauge, it is expensive, but it only makes sense.

The more lorries you take away from the roads, the better.


----------



## 437.001

Jacky93 said:


> Can't believe the Torrevieja branch line reopening isn't being seriously considered. Most of the track bed isn't built over and could easily be reinstated?!


I agree it's hard to understand.

At one point under the Rajoy government it was considered, and I guess that it is not shelved for good.

But there were nimby problems right from the start, and the Torrevieja mayor was not very cooperative, proposing the station like 3km away from the centre, while the old Torrevieja station used to be right in the town centre. 
This means that if they wanted to reinstate Torrevieja station where it was, it would need to be underground (hence €€€).

There's the plan of the Alicante airport station though.
That's better than nothing (and you know it's much, much needed too).

However, still no news of the new line between Alicante and the airport to eliminate the San Gabriel reversal.



Jacky93 said:


> Shame about the Fuengirola-Marbella-Estepona line costing upwards of 2 billion, it would really benefit the Costa del Sol and link pretty sizeable towns to the wider rail network.


That is expensive indeed.

I only see it feasible if split into different phases, first upgrade from Malaga to Fuengirola to have passing loops, longer platforms and full double track, then extend from Fuengirola to Cala Mijas, then Marbella, then Estepona, then La Linea and Algeciras.

There is no other way, I think.



Jacky93 said:


> Tren de la Costa (Valencia-Denia-Alicante) should also be more seriously considered. I have relatives in Marina Alta area who literally never visit Alicante or Valencia because of lack of public transport to either from there.


In this case, there is some progress.

Veeery, veeery slow, but existing progress.

That's better than nothing.

The current narrow gauge tram-train line from Alicante to Denia is being upgraded between Benidorm and Denia.

The current classic line between Cullera and Gandia will be double-tracked in places, but not completely.
That's because there are gauge problems with the single-track Xeraco tunnel, and also with the single-track Gandia tunnel, which leads into Gandia station.

And there are ongoing studies to try and reopen the Gandia to Oliva section, of the missing and much-missed Gandia to Denia section.

The overall problem for these three cases is twofold:

1) the housing bubble which led to the 2008 crisis has left Spain with the burden of many unfinished HSLs, none of which is scrapped. 
But the scale of those plans was actually so huge that we have now to prioritise one thing over the other, and act step by step.
With this in mind, the fact remains that the progress is obviously much slower than it used to be. 
Last year the Granada high-speed line was opened, and it's still not working at full pelt. 
In a few days the ENDLESS works (20 bloody years :bash of the Mediterranean Corridor between Camp de Tarragona and Vandellos will open AT LONG LAST (January 13), leaving btw the significantly touristy town of Salou trainless (or as good as), but at long last there will be continuous double-track between Barcelona and Valencia. 
And in some months another section of the Galicia HSL will open (Zamora to Pedralba), cutting travel times between Madrid and Galicia even further. 
A side effect of this is that there is chronical underinvestment in classic lines (particularly commuter rail, but not only).
Another side-effect of this is that Renfe dramatically lacks rolling stock, of all kinds.
This is the general and most important problem of all of the Spanish main railway system.

2) Brexit. I still don't fully know or understand which will be the effect of Brexit on the Costa Blanca or the Costa del Sol. Obviously not as strong as in the UK itself, that's clear, but at the same time, there's the Brits who live in Spain, which are a significant number of the population in Malaga and Alicante. That said, Spain or these areas do not rely only on the UK, they have their own economy and there are tourists and expats from other countries too, but it remains to be seen which and how the actual effects of Brexit will be. 
In this case, I think that a "wait and see" policy is perhaps not as unwise as one would think.


----------



## Robi_damian

437.001 said:


> roblem for these three cases is twofold:
> 
> 1) the housing bubble which led to the 2008 crisis has left Spain with the burden of many unfinished HSLs, *none of which is scrapped. *


And this is the big issue. Spain has been blasted time and again for wasting money on HSR lines with limited ridership. While the line to Seville/Malaga, the one to Barcelona and the one to Valencia make sense, as well as the trunk HSR to Valladolid-Leon and possibly its right-side extension to the Basque country, almost none of the others do. Many of the ones to the North-West will IMO even struggle to pay for operation.


----------



## arctic_carlos

Extreme flooding in Spain:



jotaerre said:


>


The railway bridge on the Tordera river (as well as the road bridge) between the stations of Blanes and Malgrat de Mar (Catalonia) has collapsed and service on the R1 line of the Barcelona Rodalies network will be interrupted for 6 to 9 months.

As you can see here, the riverbed is usually dry: https://www.google.es/maps/@41.6657...47.021336&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i16384!8i8192


----------



## eu01

Could you please enlighten me on what is happening to the intercity trains in Andalusia? Most of the trains are not bookable after 15th of February, and by earlier departures you can read:


> Los clientes realizarán el trayecto entre MALAGA y RONDA en autobús directo. No se admiten grupos, animales ni bicicletas. Estaciones intermedias sin servicio.





> Los clientes realizarán el recorrido en autobús entre Antequera Santa Ana y Granada. No se admiten grupos, animales ni bicicletas en el trayecto en autobús.


Flooding there as well?


----------



## CityDreamer

Robi_damian said:


> And this is the big issue. Spain has been blasted time and again for wasting money on HSR lines with limited ridership. While the line to Seville/Malaga, the one to Barcelona and the one to Valencia make sense, as well as the trunk HSR to Valladolid-Leon and possibly its right-side extension to the Basque country, almost none of the others do. *Many of the ones to the North-West will IMO even struggle to pay for operation.*


You may well be right.
On the other hand Renfe commissioned a report a few years ago that stated the Galicia HSL would end up being the most profitable (no I don't believe it either).
Unfortunately I don't have the link. Does any Spanish poster here remember the report?


----------



## Kees Eurotravel

437.001 said:


> Maybe you could use Google Translate a bit... the answer is in the Tweet itself, but it's not in English.
> I wouldn't pay much attention to what a local newspaper says, and much more to official press releases.


I prefer DeepL Translate ...
In fact I was just doublechecking what this man was writing on Twitter, because, as you know, people are sometimes spreading rumours on the social media.
Today, I read this article which gives us a bit of hope for the Spanish/Portuguese night trains:








Portugal, abierto a hablar con Renfe para recuperar el tren nocturno a Madrid Por EFE


Portugal, abierto a hablar con Renfe para recuperar el tren nocturno a Madrid




es.investing.com


----------



## Coccodrillo

M-NL said:


> So where does your complexity come from?


The way they are suspended on their "bogies", the fact that they cannot be easily separated for maintenance, if one end coach breaks down you cannot use the others if you don't have a spare end car (and IIRC Talgo 6's end cars are different, as the key car -the one with two axles- is one of the end car and not an intermediate car like in Talgo 7s, in this case one would need two spare end cars and not just one).


----------



## M-NL

Your exact reasoning also applies to trains using Jacobs bogies. Those are pretty popular nowadays. They're used on many, if not most, current EMU models.
Also having one differing coach, in an otherwise 'fixed' consist, that makes the consist unable if it break, isn't uncommon.
Same with multiple units. You can't easily exchange coaches and often every car in the consist is slightly different.
So it's not just a Talgo thing.


----------



## Coccodrillo

How many articulated trains does India have? Articulated trains need long workshops to ease maintenance. If you want to buy just two sets, it is better to opt for individual coaches, so that a partial set can also be operated or a single coach serviced (rather than the whole train, or rather than having to uncouple a fixed set). If India bought a sizeable fleet of Talgos, that would be different.


----------



## kokomo

Coccodrillo said:


> Often small series of vehicles doesn't last long, because they are more expensive to maintain. Talgo trains are even unusual vehicles, more complex than conventional coaches, so I wouldn't be surprised if these sets in India will not be used for a long time, or if they will be never used at all.


Well, if you take into consideration what happened to the sale of 4 Talgo IV sets (named after different Virgins) to Argentina, where they were "too technologically advanced" for the appalling railway status, you could say your theory has a solid background


----------



## 437.001

*News*

The new *Canfranc station* platforms, with their new trainshed, will open on Thursday, according to the following article (in Spanish).

*La nueva estación de ferrocarril de Canfranc se inaugurará este jueves (elperiodicodearagon.com)*


----------



## alserrod

And minister will not travel to Canfranc by railway

Opening will be between 17:00 and 18:00. At that time, evening train to Zaragoza departs. That means it will be moved from old station to new station and... opening will take place.

Next train, coming from Zaragoza, should arrive to Canfranc - new station .

May minister would... he could get on the train to Zaragoza, travel to Jaca, wait for next train and back to Canfranc. Departure and Arrival on new station... but clearly no minister wanna get on those trains.


----------



## 437.001

In the following article in Spanish...

*Más de 3.000 millones para acabar con el tren diésel - elEconomista.es*

... they talk about a government plan to electrify 1,300km of lines.

Goes as follows.


Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro-Vilar Formoso (125km, already in works)
Guillarei-Tui-Valença do Minho (5km, almost finished)
Redondela-Arcade (6km)
Monforte de Lemos-Lugo (75km)
Sagunto-Teruel-Zaragoza (315km)
Bobadilla-Ronda-Algeciras (176km)
Mérida-Almorchón-Puertollano (239km)
Ferrol-Betanzos Infesta-Corunna (69km)
Granada-Moreda-Guadix-Almeria (181km)
Bif. El Reguerón-Cartagena (65km)
Valencia-Utiel (95km)


----------



## 437.001

*News

Mediterranean Corridor (Barcelona-Valencia)*

The works to install the third rail for standard gauge between Valencia and Castellon continue.
One of the tracks is already in use, now they're working to fit the other track with it. 
On the next Tweet you'll see a few photos and a video of the works at Massalfassar station, between Valencia and Castellon.

*Adif en Twitter: "👉🏼 En una compleja operación, seis máquinas especializadas han montado un cambio de agujas apto para ancho ibérico y europeo de 80 Tn de peso y 50 m de largo https://t.co/4XQIn3Jlo4" / Twitter*



*Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line*

A couple photos of some additional electrification works at Salamanca station.
When they electrified Medina del Campo-Salamanca, not all of the tracks at Salamanca station were electrified.
That is being corrected now.



Albe®to said:


>


----------



## bruno amsterdamski

^^ Could you summarize what is current status of works on Barcelona-Valencia section, and what are the plans (track gauge, max speed, completion dates)?


----------



## 437.001

bruno amsterdamski said:


> Could you summarize what is current status of works on Barcelona-Valencia section, and what are the plans (track gauge, max speed, completion dates)?


Okay.

As for completion dates, I don't know.

I'll split it in four different sections.

*1) Barcelona-Tarragona for passengers.*

Barcelona to Cambrils on the HSL is open since early 2020, including the gauge changers at La Boella (between Vilaseca and Camp de Tarragona).

There are two bits missing, though.
One is a chord from La Boella gauge changers towards Vilaseca station and Tarragona centre station, which will be used by... good question.
And the other is... a chord at Puigdelfi avoiding a reversal at Camp de Tarragona station for trains coming from Zaragoza and following towards Tarragona centre or Valencia. This is important, as it would be a nice link between the north (Bilbao, San Sebastian, Pamplona, Logroño), and the Mediterranean coast to the south of Barcelona (Tarragona centre, Castellon, Valencia).
The problem is that although it's as good as finished, there's no rolling stock available at the moment, as Renfe lacks the trains because it has need for trains a bit everywhere (I'm excluding this pandemic situation, of course).

However, Barcelona to Valencia on the Euromed is now 30 minutes shorter than it used to. Not bad.
And with a gauge change at La Boella.

The only downside to this, is that the very touristy town of Salou is now as good as train-less (thanks to the incredible nimby-ism of its mayor, who wanted railway gone, and insisted so much about it that the government finally gave in and closed the old line through Salou).
I think this is one of the stupidest rail mistakes ever made in Spain, and we've made quite a few! The regional government wanted to build a tram-train instead, but last thing we know is that the mayor said he wants buses. Odd.

*2) Valencia to Castellon*

There's also works to put standard gauge between Valencia and Castellon.
One track is already in service, the other is being fit with the 3rd rail as I write.
Right now this will only be used by the AVE Castellon-Madrid until Tarragona to Castellon is finished.

*3) Tarragona to Castellon*

This also includes the short spur between L'Aldea and Tortosa, used only by regional services.
The government intends to change the gauge to standard gauge only on this section, and stuff has already been tendered for that.
If they go ahead with this, it will be the first major gauge change in Spain.
On the downside, the gauge change does not include the access to the Castellon port, which will inevitably have to be closed.

That said, I personally have serious doubts about the state of the passenger regional services after this is done, as it would mean a total permanent disruption in the area, which has already taken a it after the closure of the classic line in single-track between Tarragona, Salou, Cambrils centre and Vandellos. The new double track line allows for better speeds, but avoids the town centres, and completely avoids Salou. 

*4) Barcelona to Tarragona for freight*

Works are underway to install a 3rd rail for standard gauge between the Castellbisbal junction and Tarragona.
However, this is proving to be extraordinarily complicated, as this means upgrading certain stations (some of which were in a dire need of an upgrade anyway), but more importantly tunnels.
And all that, while keeping the commuter rail and regional services (and freight trains) running.
Commuter rail in Barcelona is essential, the city being surrounded by mountains, it has less road accesses than other cities. So you cannot cut any line unless absolutely necessary. And that's a bad enough hit when it happens.

The core of the works now is between Castellbisbal and the Seat factory at Martorell, which included the upgrade of a tunnel wchich was in really bad state, and the triple-tracking of said section by reopening (after restoration) an old, abandoned, single-track tunnel. These works are extremely complicated, as they involve the main access for freight to Barcelona, and two commuter train lines, and more importantly, a very complicated geology in the area.

The remaining sections between Martorell and Tarragona are at a varying degree of advance, as they rely entirely on the completion of Castellbisbal-Martorell for the next steps to happen.
There is one complicated section though, between Sant Vicenç de Calders and Tarragona, as that involves a tunnel at Roda de Bara.

Local authorities demand the reopening of the old Roda de Bara to Reus via Camp de Tarragona line, as that would take away all of the freight trains (particularly the ones with dangerous stuff) from the rather populated coastline.
But that's not for the same phase as the current works, as that would delay things enormously.


----------



## 437.001

A really, really curious picture. 
Let's see how many of you recognize the place and the type of train. 

*Pre/V\sa història en Twitter: "Anys 60. Talgo circulant per davant del monument a Colom. IEFC. https://t.co/f2HFZpb4i4" / Twitter*


----------



## Khaul

That’s a Talgo II running in the old Port of Barcelona tracks through Passeig the Colom. You could see that from the end of Rambles! That was the Barcelona Rivabahn.


----------



## 437.001

Khaul said:


> That’s a Talgo II running in the old Port of Barcelona tracks through Passeig the Colom. You could see that from the end of Rambles! That was the Barcelona Rivabahn.


Bound for Barcelona-França. 
That was not a regular passenger service, it might have been just a technical movement of rolling stock, or perhaps a propaganda shot for Talgo, I don't know.


----------



## Khaul

437.001 said:


> Bound for Barcelona-França.
> That was not a regular passenger service, it might have been just a technical movement of rolling stock, or perhaps a propaganda shot for Talgo, I don't know.


Yes, once a driver told me he once was on one of those technical movements. They forgot to lower the pantograph of their electric locomotive in their way from Franca to Morrot causing a small disaster when the reach the limit of the overhead wire.


----------



## 437.001

*News

Santander-Bilbao line (metric gauge)*

There is, at long last, some progress on the *electrification between Aranguren and Karrantza*, which had long been put on hold (it got hit by both the crisis, the merger of Feve with both Adif and Renfe, and the "concurrence" of another electrification Feve had started between Infiesto and Ribadesella, in Asturias, which was given priority by Adif over this one).
According to the following article in Spanish (which includes several photos), two tunnels are in works in Zalla (between Mimetiz and Traslaviña stations, I suppose) to adapt their loading gauge for electrification (1,5 kV).

*Adif reconstruye dos túneles del tren en Zalla - Deia*

After this electrification will be completed, it will allow for electric passenger services between 
Bilbao-Concordia and Karrantza, which will be done with class 436 EMU's (ex-Feve class 3600) from the Balmaseda depot, and it will also allow freight trains with dual locos class 619 (ex-Feve class 1900) to run in electric mode in the section between Aranguren and Karrantza, which includes some rather steep gradients.

Once in service, the gap that will be left in diesel between Bilbao and Santander will be much shorter, only between Karrantza and Orejo (but still including some steep gradients between Karrantza and Gibaja anyway).


----------



## Stuu

Surprising that a small section was left and the rest finished. I travelled along there in 2019, it's a beautiful route but very slow, there were three or four places where there were speed restrictions and works started but abandoned which doesn't help. Have they said what the service will be once the electrification is finished?


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> Surprising that a small section was left and the rest finished. I travelled along there in 2019, it's a beautiful route but very slow, there were three or four places where there were speed restrictions and works started but abandoned which doesn't help.


That's one of the works that had been left unfinished because of the Feve merger into Renfe and Adif.



Stuu said:


> Have they said what the service will be once the electrification is finished?


Not much different, probably.
It will all depend on the post-pandemic situation I guess.
But the already existing Bilbao-Santander regional services, which are OSP ("obligatoriedad de servicio público"), will carry on.
Plus maybe some extra Bilbao-Karrantza passenger service, but time will tell.


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> Not much different, probably.
> It will all depend on the post-pandemic situation I guess.
> But the already existing Bilbao-Santander regional services, which are OSP ("obligatoriedad de servicio público"), will carry on.
> Plus maybe some extra Bilbao-Karrantza passenger service, but time will tell.


So they spend millions of € without specifiying what for? The service a couple of years ago seemed to be 3 journeys each way between Santander and Bilbao, which is pretty poor. I know it's quicker end to end by bus but there seemed to be quite a few towns between the two. The low numbers of trains does seem quite common in Spain away from big cities though - here there are very few stations with less than hourly services


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> So they spend millions of € without specifiying what for?


???
Currently in Spain it is a bit hard to say which services will continue to exist once the pandemic is over.
Some have been discontinued because of it, others have been maintained.
Isn't this happening in the UK?



Stuu said:


> The service a couple of years ago seemed to be 3 journeys each way between Santander and Bilbao, which is pretty poor. I know it's quicker end to end by bus but there seemed to be quite a few towns between the two.


Oh no, not that many on the section between Aranguren and Orejo.
The electrification was started by Feve before the merger, with the main aim of allowing less diesel consumption for the freight trains (hauled by dual locos class 1900, now class 619).
And also to make the Bilbao-Karrantza short services electric.
But first came the 2008 crisis, and now there's the pandemic.



Stuu said:


> The low numbers of trains does seem quite common in Spain away from big cities though - here there are very few stations with less than hourly services


Yes.

There are several reasons for this.
And sometimes there aren't...

On the reasonable side, there's the need for Renfe (a public company) to keep its numbers more or less afloat.
Then there's what's called "obligación de servicio público" (Spanish for "compulsory public service"), but that obviously doesn't grant many trains per day.
There's also the deep unbalances in population density. For instance, Bilbao, and much of Biscay, has a much higher population density than neighbouring Burgos, and it's also got a higher population density than most of Cantabria.

On the unreasonable side, there are some stations where trains should call and they don't, or which were closed many years ago for reasons which were a bit random. I mean, Britain had Beeching, and the harshest that was closed there were several suburban lines, the GCML, the Varsity Line, the Waverley Line, the Woodhead Line... and maybe also that line that goes through Dartmoor and used to allow an alternative to Dawlish if there's gale (Okehampton, Tavistock, and so on, if I remember well). But overall, Britain has a rail network extensive enough to be able to cope with much of that, although the closures did hit deeper in certain regions (southwestern England, Wales, Scotland) more than in others.

In Spain, which never had such an extensive network to begin with, certain closures were really harsh, and did hit entire regions, which in a country that is larger and more mountainous than Britain had an even worse effect.
Spain's "Beeching year" was 1985. Not only were commuter lines closed, but also significant parts of what were main lines.

In some cases, for the commuter lines, it was more a lack of foresight, because many lines were closed while cities were growing a lot in the 1960's/1970's, some even in the 1980's, and had they stayed, it would be unthinkable to close them nowadays. It must be said, though, that by the time they were closed the railway didn't exactly enjoy the spotlight it does now, and back then the car and road travel was even more promoted than it is now.
That also affected many tramway networks.
Many of those lines were really neglected. And of course, the economic and political circumstances were not exactly the same as they are now.

However, the closure of certain main lines (and certain lines left unfinished too) was a bit obscure, because they left big gaping holes in the network, particularly in western Spain (Plasencia-Salamanca-Zamora-Astorga, closed in 1985), and also in southern Spain (Almendricos-Guadix, closed in 1985, and Albacete-Linares Baeza, which was left unfinished in the 1970's).
Western Spain in particular feels rather bitter after the closure of the Plasencia-Astorga line. Now you have to travel via Madrid (or by bus).
Dunno, it's like they had closed Carlisle to Newcastle, or Bristol/Cardiff to Birmingham.
This hasn't help tackle depopulation in certain areas, although I guess that's better for nature and the environment, I suppose.

Perhaps the most extreme case is the Guadalajara province, whose west falls partly within the greater Madrid, and is actually the fastest-growing region of Spain (which means more and more passengers on the commuter trains), while the east of that same Guadalajara province suffers extreme depopulation and certain parts have a population density as low as in Lapland (which meant closed stations, and also closed lines, and fewer and emptier trains on the existing services).


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> ???
> Currently in Spain it is a bit hard to say which services will continue to exist once the pandemic is over.
> Some have been discontinued because of it, others have been maintained.
> Isn't this happening in the UK?


Thanks for the detailed reply... on this, yes services have been reduced because of covid, but when infrastructure is being improved I would expect there to be a plan in place for what is going to use it. 

How much freight runs along that section?


----------



## Khaul

437.001 said:


> ???
> Currently in Spain it is a bit hard to say which services will continue to exist once the pandemic is over.
> Some have been discontinued because of it, others have been maintained.
> Isn't this happening in the UK?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no, not that many on the section between Aranguren and Orejo.
> The electrification was started by Feve before the merger, with the main aim of allowing less diesel consumption for the freight trains (hauled by dual locos class 1900, now class 619).
> And also to make the Bilbao-Karrantza short services electric.
> But first came the 2008 crisis, and now there's the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> There are several reasons for this.
> And sometimes there aren't...
> 
> On the reasonable side, there's the need for Renfe (a public company) to keep its numbers more or less afloat.
> Then there's what's called "obligación de servicio público" (Spanish for "compulsory public service"), but that obviously doesn't grant many trains per day.
> There's also the deep unbalances in population density. For instance, Bilbao, and much of Biscay, has a much higher population density than neighbouring Burgos, and it's also got a higher population density than most of Cantabria.
> 
> On the unreasonable side, there are some stations where trains should call and they don't, or which were closed many years ago for reasons which were a bit random. I mean, Britain had Beeching, and the harshest that was closed there were several suburban lines, the GCML, the Varsity Line, the Waverley Line, the Woodhead Line... and maybe also that line that goes through Dartmoor and used to allow an alternative to Dawlish if there's gale (Okehampton, Tavistock, and so on, if I remember well). But overall, Britain has a rail network extensive enough to be able to cope with much of that, although the closures did hit deeper in certain regions (southwestern England, Wales, Scotland) more than others.
> 
> In Spain, which never had such an extensive network to begin with, certain closures were really harsh, and did hit entire regions, which in a country that is larger and more mountainous than Britain had an even worse effect.
> Spain's "Beeching year" was 1985. Not only were commuter lines closed, but also significant parts of what were main lines.
> 
> In some cases, for the commuter lines, it was more a lack of foresight, because many lines were closed while cities were growing a lot in the 1960's/1970's, some even in the 1980's, and had they stayed, it would be unthinkable to close them nowadays. It must be said, though, that by the time they were closed the railway didn't exactly enjoy the spotlight it does now, and back then the car and road travel was even more promoted than it is now.
> That also affected many tramway networks.
> Many of those lines were really neglected. And of course, the economic and political circumstances were not exactly the same as they are now.
> 
> However, the closure of certain main lines (and certain lines left unfinished too) was a bit obscure, because they left big gaping holes in the network, particularly in western Spain (Plasencia-Salamanca-Zamora-Astorga, closed in 1985), and also in southern Spain (Almendricos-Guadix, closed in 1985, and Albacete-Linares Baeza, which was left unfinished in the 1970's).
> Western Spain in particular feels rather bitter after the closure of the Plasencia-Astorga line. Now you have to travel via Madrid (or by bus).
> Dunno, it's like they had closed Carlisle to Newcastle, or Bristol/Cardiff to Birmingham.
> This hasn't help tackle depopulation in certain areas, although I guess that's better for nature and the environment, I suppose.
> 
> Perhaps the most extreme case is the Guadalajara province, whose west falls partly within the greater Madrid, and is actually the fastest-growing region of Spain (which means more and more passengers on the commuter trains), while the east of that same Guadalajara province suffers extreme depopulation and certain parts have a population density as low as in Lapland (which meant closed stations, and also closed lines, and fewer and emptier trains on the existing services).


I wouldn’t say any commuter line was closed in 1985. It was mostly branch and regional lines with very little use. Some were unfinished trunk lines. Truly commuter rail actually had a renaissance in the late 1980s.

In any case, even high speed railways in Spain have little traffic for international standards.


----------



## arctic_carlos

Khaul said:


> I wouldn’t say any commuter line was closed in 1985. It was mostly branch and regional lines with very little use. Some were unfinished trunk lines. Truly commuter rail actually had a renaissance in the late 1980s.
> 
> In any case, even high speed railways in Spain have little traffic for international standards.


We’re not talking about already operating commuter lines in the main metropolitan areas (Madrid or Barcelona), but branch lines with a lot of potential in smaller metropolitan arras that today would have a very high use as commuter lines if they hadn’t been closed. Good examples are San Isidro - Torrevieja (Alicante area) or El Puerto de Santa María - Sanlúcar de Barrameda (Cádiz area), both closed in 1985.

Besides, in the late 60’s and 70’s some narrow gauge lines were closed in coastal areas such as Málaga and Girona that now would have a very high demand due to tourism-related development.


----------



## 437.001

arctic_carlos said:


> We’re not talking about already operating commuter lines in the main metropolitan areas (Madrid or Barcelona), but branch lines with a lot of potential in smaller metropolitan arras that today would have a very high use as commuter lines if they hadn’t been closed. Good examples are San Isidro - Torrevieja (Alicante area) or El Puerto de Santa María - Sanlúcar de Barrameda (Cádiz area), both closed in 1985.
> 
> Besides, in the late 60’s and 70’s some narrow gauge lines were closed in coastal areas such as Málaga and Girona that now would have a very high demand due to tourism-related development.


Tourism, and mere commuting.

Actually, I would really include both Madrid, Barcelona, as well as Seville, Malaga, Valencia, Cantabria, Bilbao, and San Sebastian.

Here's a list of closed would-now-be commuter rail lines by area (I do not include short chords).
The year is the one of closure or end of passenger service. In _italics_, the narrow-gauge lines.
*Edit: other members on the Spanish SSC forum have thrown a helping hand, so now the data is a bit more complete. Thanks!*


*MADRID*

_-1938 - Mejorada del Campo-La Poveda-San Martín de la Vega-Ciempozuelos _(did it ever have passenger service?)
-1939 - Torrejón de Ardoz-Mejorada del Campo-Orusco (and on to Tarancón)
_-1953 - Madrid-La Poveda-Arganda del Rey-Morata de Tajuña-Orusco-Sacedón-__Alocén
-1953? (can't find the exact date) - Morata de Tajuña-Chinchón-Colmenar de Oreja_
_-1966 - Navalcarnero-Villamanta-Almorox
- unfinished line - Villamanta-San Martín de Valdeiglesias
-1970 - Móstoles-Navalcarnero_
-2011 - Colmenar Viejo-Soto del Real-Miraflores de la Sierra (and on to Aranda de Duero and Burgos)
-2012 - Pinto-San Martín de la Vega

*BARCELONA*

-1939 - Mollet Sant Fost-Mollet Santa Rosa-Caldes de Montbui
-_1972 - Olvan-Guardiola de Berguedà
-1973 - Manresa Alta-Olvan_

*SEVILLE*

_-1955 - San Juan de Aznalfarache-Camas-El Ronquillo-Santa Olalla del Cala
-1959 - Camas-Aznalcóllar-Gerena _(did it ever have passenger service?)
-1965 - San Francisco-Alcalá de Guadaíra-Carmona Baja
-1967 - La Trinidad-Morón de la Frontera
-1970 - Guadajoz-Carmona Alta
-1971 - Marchena-Écija (and on to Valchillón and Cordoba)
-1975 - Sevilla San Bernardo-San Francisco

*CADIZ*

-1965 - Jerez de la Frontera-Sanlúcar de Barrameda Pueblo-Bonanza
-1985 - El Puerto de Santa María-Rota-Sanlúcar de Barrameda Playa
-1985 - Jerez de la Frontera-Jédula (never opened for passengers)
- unfinished line - Jédula-Arcos de la Frontera (and on to Almargen)


*MALAGA*

_-1960 - Vélez Málaga-Periana-Ventas de Zafarraya
-1965 - San Julián-Coín
-1968 - Málaga-Vélez Málaga _


*VALENCIA*

_- after 1939 (can't find the exact date) - Villanueva de Castellón-La Pobla Llarga
-1957 - Valencia Jesús-Nazaret
-1969 - Carcaixent-Tavernes de la Valldigna_ (closure related to the change of gauge of Tavernes de la Valldigna-Gandia)
_-_*(1972? can't find the exact date)*_1972 - _*Sagunt-Port de Sagunt*_Sagunt-Port de Sagunt_ (did it ever have passenger service? *it did have passenger service, and it was electrified, and in Iberian gauge*)
_-1974 - Gandia-Oliva-Dénia_ (provisory closure and dismantled in 1974, to be regauged to Iberian, works never started, officially closed in 1984!!!)
-1985 - Riba-roja del Túria-Vilamarxant-Llíria
-2021 (can anyone confirm this?) -Valencia Sant Isidre-Xirivella L'Alter


*ALICANTE*

-1970 - San Isidro Albatera Catral-Torrevieja (passengers, line closed completely only in 1985!!!)
- unfinished line - Agost-Alcoy


*MURCIA*

-1971 - Murcia Zaraiche-Molina del Segura-Alguazas Molina-Caravaca de la Cruz
-.unfinished line - Totana-La Pinilla-Cartagena
- unfinished line - La Pinilla-Mazarrón


*BISCAY (BILBAO)*

-_1966 -Traslaviña-Castro Urdiales_
-_1969 - Matiko-Azbarren (Ariz Basauri)_
-_*1971*(1972? can't find the exact date) - Durango-Elorrio_
-_1975 - Sondika-Mungia_


*GUIPUZCOA (SAN SEBASTIAN)*

-_1956 - Irun-Elizondo_
-_1958 - Loiola-Astigarraga-Hernani_
-_1958 - Lasarte Oria-Andoain-Plazaola-Leitza_ (and on to Pamplona)
-_1967 - Mekolalde-Bergara-San Prudencio-Mondragon-Eskoriatza_ (and on to Vitoria and Estella)
-_ (*1967*? can't find the exact date) - San Prudencio-Oñati_
-_1975 - Maltzaga-Mekolalde-Bergara-Zumarraga_
-_1988 - Zumaia-Zumarraga_


*CANTABRIA (SANTANDER)*

_-1973 - La Cueva La Penilla - Ontaneda
-1976 - Astillero-La Cueva La Penilla_
- unfinished line -Boo-Villacarriedo (and on to Santelices)


*ASTURIAS (OVIEDO/GIJON)*

_-1999 - Oviedo Vasco-Fuso de la Reina (_closure related to the change of gauge of Oviedo-Trubia_)
-1999 - Trubia-Fuso de la Reina-Baiña (_passengers, the line remains open_)
-unfinished line - Pravia-Cangas de Narcea_


*MALLORCA*

_-1941 - Consell-Alaró_
-_1964 - Palma-Llucmajor-Campos-Santanyí_
-_1965 - Palma-Palma Port_ (never had passenger service. I actually am discovering its existence, it was underground!!! WTF!!! Its reopening for passengers was discussed for many years, but if was finally discarded as they built two underground car parks.  )
-_1967 - Santa Maria-Porreres-Felanitx_
-_1977 - Manacor-Artà_ (reopening planned, reopening works started in 2009, but then halted in 2011, turned into a cycling path in 2014  )


----------



## arctic_carlos

437.001 said:


> Tourism, and mere commuting.
> 
> Actually, I would really include both Madrid, Barcelona, as well as Seville, Malaga, Valencia, Cantabria, Bilbao, and San Sebastian.
> 
> Here's a list of closed lines by area of would-now-be commuter rail lines (I do not include short chords).
> The year is the one of closure or end of passenger service. In _italics_, the narrow-gauge lines.
> 
> *MADRID*
> 
> _-1938 - Mejorada del Campo-La Poveda-San Martín de la Vega-Ciempozuelos _(did it ever have passenger service?)
> -1939 - Torrejón de Ardoz-Mejorada del Campo-Orusco (and on to Tarancón)
> _-1953 - Madrid-La Poveda-Arganda del Rey-Morata de Tajuña-Orusco-Sacedón
> -1966 - Navalcarnero-Villamanta-Almorox
> -unfinished line - Villamanta-San Martín de Valdeiglesias
> -1970 - Móstoles-Navalcarnero_
> -2011 - Colmenar Viejo-Soto del Real-Miraflores de la Sierra (and on to Aranda de Duero and Burgos)
> -2012 - Pinto-San Martín de la Vega
> 
> *BARCELONA*
> 
> 1939 - Mollet Sant Fost-Mollet Santa Rosa-Caldes de Montbui
> _1973 - Manresa Alta-Olvan_
> 
> *SEVILLE*
> 
> _1955 - San Juan de Aznalfarache-Camas-El Ronquillo-Santa Olalla del Cala
> 1959 - Camas-Aznalcóllar-Gerena _(did it ever have passenger service?)
> 1965 - San Francisco-Alcalá de Guadaíra-Carmona Baja
> 1967 - La Trinidad-Morón de la Frontera (passengers, closed completely in 1985)
> 1970 - Guadajoz-Carmona Alta
> 1971 - Marchena-Écija (and on to Valchillón and Cordoba)
> 1975 - Sevilla San Bernardo-San Francisco
> 
> *CADIZ*
> 
> 1965 - Jerez de la Frontera-Sanlúcar de Barrameda Pueblo-Bonanza
> 1985 - El Puerto de Santa María-Rota-Sanlúcar de Barrameda Playa
> 1985 - Jerez de la Frontera-Jédula (never opened for passengers)
> unfinished line - Jédula-Arcos de la Frontera (and on to Almargen)
> 
> *MALAGA*
> 
> 196 -Vélez Málaga-Periana-Ventas de Zafarraya
> _1968 - Málaga-Vélez Málaga
> 1965 - San Julián-Coín_
> 
> *VALENCIA*
> 
> _after 1939 (can't find the exact date) - Villanueva de Castellón-La Pobla Llarga
> 1957 - Valencia Jesús-Nazaret
> 1969 - Carcaixent-Tavernes de la Valldigna_ (closure related to the change of gauge of Tavernes de la Valldigna-Gandia)
> _1972 - Sagunto-Puerto de Sagunto_ (did it ever have passenger service?)
> _1974 - Gandia-Oliva-Dénia_ (provisory closed dismantled in 1974 to be regauged to Iberian, works never started, officially closed in 1984!!!)
> 1985 - Riba-roja del Túria-Vilamarxant-Llíria
> 2021 (can anyone confirm this?) -Valencia Sant Isidre-Xirivella L'Alter
> 
> *ALICANTE*
> 
> 1970 - San Isidro Albatera Catral-Torrevieja (passengers, line closed completely only in 1985!!!)
> unfinished line - Agost-Alcoy
> 
> *MURCIA*
> 
> 1971 - Murcia Zaraiche-Molina del Segura-Alguazas Molina-Caravaca de la Cruz
> -unfinished line - Totana-La Pinilla-Cartagena
> -unfinished line - La Pinilla-Mazarrón
> 
> *BISCAY (BILBAO)*
> 
> 1966 -Traslaviña-Castro Urdiales
> 1969 - Matiko-Azbarren (Ariz Basauri)
> (1972? can't find the exact date) - Durango-Elorrio
> 1975 - Sondika-Mungia
> 
> *GUIPUZCOA (SAN SEBASTIAN)*
> 
> 1956 - Irun-Elizondo
> 1958 - Loiola-Astigarraga-Hernani
> 1958 - Lasarte Oria-Andoain-Plazaola-Leitza (and on to Pamplona)
> 1967 - Mekolalde-Bergara-San Prudencio-Mondragon-Eskoriatza (and on to Vitoria and Estella)
> (1967? can't find the exact date) - San Prudencio-Oñati
> 1975 - Maltzaga-Mekolalde-Bergara-Zumarraga
> 1988 - Zumaia-Zumarraga
> 
> 
> *CANTABRIA (SANTANDER)*
> 
> _1973 - La Cueva La Penilla - Ontaneda
> 1976 - Astillero-La Cueva La Penilla_
> unfinished line -Boo-Villacarriedo (and on to Santelices)
> 
> 
> *ASTURIAS (OVIEDO/GIJON)*
> 
> _1999 - Oviedo Vasco-Fuso de la Reina (_closure related to the change of gauge of Oviedo-Trubia_)
> 1999 - Trubia-Fuso de la Reina-Baiña (_passengers, the line remains open_)_
> 
> 
> *MALLORCA*
> 
> 1941 - Consell-Alaró
> 1964 - Palma-Llucmajor-Campos-Santanyí
> 1965 - Palma-Palma Port (never had passenger service. I actually am discovering its existence, it was underground!!! WTF!!! Its reopening for passengers was discussed for many years, but if was finally discarded as they built two underground car parks.  )
> 1967 - Santa Maria-Porreres-Felanitx
> 1977 - Manacor-Artà (reopening planned, reopening works started in 2009, but then halted in 2011, turned into a cycling path in 2014  )


Indeed. I would add the 4 narrow-gauge lines near Girona (Girona-Olot anf Girona-Sant Feliu de Guíxols - closed in 1969- and Girona-Palamós and Girona-Banyoles - closed in 1956), and near Tarragona the narrow-gauge line Reus-Salou - closed in 1975-, which could have easily become commuter lines, if they hadn’t been closed.


----------



## 437.001

🔼 🔼 🔼
And now, case by case, starting from...

*MADRID*

Madrid has a surprisingly high number of closed lines for a city of its size.



437.001 said:


> _-1938 - Mejorada del Campo-La Poveda-San Martín de la Vega-Ciempozuelos_


This was a narrow gauge line (600mm), and I'm waiting for info on whether this ever had passenger service or not.
Part of the tracks can be seen around La Poveda station, where there's an touristic steam railway.
Had it been maintained an upgraded to Iberian gauge, it would have become a rather useful Madrid-avoiding line, notably for freight, but also for passengers.



437.001 said:


> -1939 - Torrejón de Ardoz-Mejorada del Campo-Orusco (and on to Tarancón)


The part between Torrejón de Ardoz and Mejorada del Campo used to be part of the Mejorada-Ciempozuelos line and originally had a gauge of 600mm, but during the Spanish Civil War it was chosen by the Republican government as the beginning of a new Iberian-gauge line from Madrid to Tarancón to keep all railways under Republican control together, and for this reason was built rather hurriedly (steep gradients, narrow bends) and was in use only during the war.

There are talks about reinstating the part between Torrejón and Mejorada del Campo (and it would be rather well used if they did so, even more if they extended it further east towards Loeches and Nuevo Baztán).
Needless to say, had the Franco government kept it open (and it could have), nowadays the line would probably be very busy and the greater Madrid would have expanded differently.

The alignment between Torrejón de Ardoz and Mejorada del Campo mostly remains, and about a third of it is actually open for freight (and used).



437.001 said:


> _-1953 - Madrid-La Poveda-Arganda del Rey-Morata de Tajuña-Orusco-Sacedón-__Alocén
> -1953? (can't find the exact date) - Morata de Tajuña-Chinchón-Colmenar de Oreja _


This metric gauge line remained opened for freight between Vicalvaro station and Cornicabra (between Arganda del Rey and Morata de Tajuña) until... 1997.

By then, the towns of Rivas-Vaciamadrid and Arganda del Rey had grown a lot, and desperately needed a commuter rail service. So, instead of Adif/Renfe or the then Feve, it was Metro de Madrid which expanded line 9 from Vicalvaro/Puerta de Arganda to Arganda del Rey, partly on a different alignment (and on Metro de Madrid gauge - 1,445mm, not standard gauge by 10mm  ).

Part of the original alignment between Rivas-Vaciamadrid and La Poveda has remained, around La Poveda station, and is now used as a steam touristic short line.

The part between Vicálvaro and Madrid-Niño Jesús station (terminus located at the southeast side of the Retiro park, not very far from Sáinz de Baranda and Ibiza metro stations), was closed in 1953, and has since been built on.

Many think it was a mistake to allow the Metro to do it, and believe it should have been done by Adif/Renfe or Feve.
Among other things, because this prevents it from being extended if there ever is the need for that.

Needless to say, had the line stayed open for the whole of the section between Madrid and Sacedón (the part between Sacedón and Alocén lies now underwater because of a dam on the river Tagus), including its branch from Morata de Tajuña to Chinchón and Colmenar de Oreja, Madrid would have developed differently nowadays, and the line would now be between rather and extremely busy.



437.001 said:


> _-1966 - Navalcarnero-Villamanta-Almorox_


Another case of a closure which could have made Madrid (and part of the Toledo province) look rather different if it hadn't happened.



437.001 said:


> _- unfinished line - Villamanta-San Martín de Valdeiglesias_


Same as the Navalcarnero-Almorox line, of which it should have been a branch, but it was left unfinished.
Again, Madrid would look different today.
This section in particular, as it runs through a rather scenic area (although part of the would-have-been alignment is now underwater because of another dam).



437.001 said:


> _-1970 - Móstoles-Navalcarnero_


This is probably the most annoying story of rail closures in Spain, and one of the most annoying in the whole of Europe.

In short, it is a shambles.

The line was closed in 1970, as well as the remainder of it between Móstoles and... Madrid-Goya station (which was its terminus across the river Manzanares from the Royal Palace gardens, and not very far south from Príncipe Pío station).

So... why was Madrid-Móstoles-Navalcarnero closed, then?

Well, because there was a plan to regauge, electrify and double-track the line from metric to Iberian, because the towns of Alcorcón and Móstoles were growing a lot (and still are).
So, in the end, the line was regauged between Madrid and Móstoles... and is now the busiest end of the Cercanías line C5, the busiest Renfe line in Spain, with a train every 5min at peak hours.

The problem is... they just "forgot" about the Móstoles to Navalcarnero part until relatively recently.
It was not until the Zapatero government (post-2004, then), that, at long last, they began planning the reopening of the line between Móstoles and Navalcarnero.
But again, just like with the Arganda line, Adif/Renfe would not do it, the line would be awarded by the Madrid regional government, not to the Metro this time, but to a private company, and so it ended up being awarded to OHL, which would exploit it for benefit, related to a... rather big new development at Navalcarnero...

And so the works started. Most of it on a different alignment, by the way.

But then... the 2008 crisis came, and OHL stopped the works.
Then later said it didn't want to do it anymore.
But the Madrid regional government disagrees.

So the case is in courts. 

Many believe that, sooner or later, Adif will have to take care of it and do it (as it should have from the very beginning!!!).

Do I need to even need to hint at the bitterness this causes in Navalcarnero, after *51 years* of "provisory" closure?

How different would road traffic and urban development have been in southwest Madrid? 



437.001 said:


> -2011 - Colmenar Viejo-Soto del Real-Miraflores de la Sierra (and on to Aranda de Duero and Burgos)


The line was closed in 2011 because Adif didn't want to take care of it any more, as it had basically become a redundancy after the opening of the Madrid-Valladolid HSL, and it crossed rather unpopulated areas (well, that depends on how you look at it, but that's what you say when you really want to close a line).
Coincidentally, a tunnel collapsed while there were some strange maintenance works happening on it, burying a draisine that was within the tunnel (but not harming anyone on it, all very coincidental, some say. Go figure).
However, the part between Colmenar Viejo and Miraflores de la Sierra is technically open, as it's supposed to be upgraded and reopened as part of an extension of Cercanías line C4.
Most of the project for that is done, but the reopening (which includes electrification) is taking forever.



437.001 said:


> -2012 - Pinto-San Martín de la Vega


Another shambles.
A newborn branch line that was a flop, it was designed and built by the Madrid regional government, Adif didn't want it, Renfe didn't want it, and they both made everything to make it fail.
How? Easy. No direct trains to Madrid, and one train per hour.
A reopening doesn't seem very likely at all, it has even been de-electrified and its signalling is now dismantled too.
But why did they wanted so much to close it, instead of working on it to make it attractive?


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## 437.001

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*BARCELONA*

Overall, Barcelona has been very lucky to escape the large closures of other regions.
However...



> -1939 - Mollet Sant Fost-Mollet Santa Rosa-Caldes de Montbui


This was the first ever line, and the first Iberian-gauge line, to be closed in Spain.
The fault to its ill-designed alignment at Mollet, which made a reversal compulsory (or even two reversals depending on the case), resulting in an inconvenient travel time to/from Barcelona, which meant that direct trains were discontinued and instead a change at one of the two Mollet stations was the only option.
This meant that it wasnt't able to compete against buses.
It was closed in 1932, but reopened during the Spanish Civil War, then closed again for good.
Much of it has been built on, so it's not really an option for reopening.

That said, had it been better designed and had it allowed for direct Caldes-Barcelona trains without a reversal... things might have been different.



> -_1972 - Olvan-Guardiola de Berguedà
> -1973 - Manresa Alta-Olvan_


This were two different stages of the same line.
1972, they closed Olvan to Guardiola, because of the construction of yet another dam.
Then 1973, they closed Olvan to Manresa because this particular stretch had many sectors in which the line ran tram-like along the main road, which was becoming dangerous.
Most of the line has been engulfed by the adjacent road, so very, very little of it remains.

Except the part between Sallent and Manresa, which was kept open for freight, and still is.
It is one of the few parts where the line runs/ran separated from the road, not strictly alongside it or within it.


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## 437.001

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*SEVILLE*

This is one of the worst cases in the whole of Spain.
Overall, a city the size of Seville has some serious lacks in suburban rail transport.
Part of its problems are because of closures of railway lines.
But not only.
Some of the problems are on existing railway lines.
Some of them, because railway service is very bad (not enough trains per hour, ill-designed services), others because there aren't good links to other public transport (San Jeronimo or Camas stations, even San Bernardo station itself, Santa Justa station has no metro or tramway link...).

As for the Seville closed lines...



> _-1955 - San Juan de Aznalfarache-Camas-El Ronquillo-Santa Olalla del Cala
> -1959 - Camas-Aznalcóllar-Gerena _(did it ever have passenger service?)


The two narrow-gauge Seville railway lines were freight-oriented.
I'm not certain whether they had passengers or not.
But they could have become commuter railway lines, had the authorities wanted to.
Particularly the latter.
But this was not to be.
Anyway, this is not the worst case.

The worst case was...



> -1965 - San Francisco-Alcalá de Guadaíra-Carmona Baja
> -1975 - Sevilla San Bernardo-San Francisco


This. This would now be a very busy line. But it was closed in stages, and it's rather difficult to reopen, because significant parts of it have been built on.
Besides, the Andalusian regional government is building a tramway line which follows a similar (and at times parallel) alignment (and which in his own right is quite another story, because its opening is taking forever as well), so a reopening looks unlikely.
There is a still existing part, though, as it was kept as an access to an industrial estate, but I think it's technically closed now, although I'm not 100% sure.



> -1967 - La Trinidad-Morón de la Frontera


Closed for passengers in 1967, to all traffic in 1985.
Had it stayed, it would be busy...
That said, a reopening is not physically impossible...



> -1970 - Guadajoz-Carmona Alta


Another case of a line that would be rather busy if it had been kept.
That said, in this particular case, a reopening isn't physically impossible.
And in fact, this branch line being quite short, it would probably be good value for money.



> -1971 - Marchena-Écija (and on to Valchillón and Cordoba)


It's a cycling lane nowadays.
I think some of the urban parts have been built on.
Same as the two above. Had they not closed it, it would be busy.


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## 437.001

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*CADIZ*

Not the worst case, but not the best either.
However, it contains one of the worst closures from 1985.
And, more recently, an infamous tram-train that never seems to be able to finally open.

As for the closures...



> -1965 - Jerez de la Frontera-Sanlúcar de Barrameda Pueblo-Bonanza


This closure was probably unavoidable. The line runs through nothing except at each end (Jerez and Sanlúcar).
That said, had it not been neglected...



> -1985 - El Puerto de Santa María-Rota-Sanlúcar de Barrameda Playa


This is one of the stupidest closures from the 1985 rail massacre.
The Andalusian government and Renfe had planned to upgrade it and electrify it.
But Renfe then changed its mind, and went for a full closure,
Significant parts of it have been built on, although it's not physically impossible to reopen.
But... why the closure??? 
It would be rather busy now...



> -1985 - Jerez de la Frontera-Jédula (never opened for passengers)
> - unfinished line - Jédula-Arcos de la Frontera (and on to Almargen)


Unfinished line. Says it all. The part between Jerez and Jédula was opened only for freight.
Sadly, the part between Jédula and Arcos never got opened at all, despite being the only other part of the unfinished Jerez-Almargen line to have seen rails, and I think if it had been opened, it might have survived.
It should have.


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## 437.001

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*MALAGA*

Malaga... 😑😶 ...where does one begin?
Where rail still exists and has a minimally decent timetable, it is from well used to very busy.
The problem is that that is not the most frequent case.

Well, first, the closures.
Only three, but two of them extremely significant.

First came this one.



> _-1960 - Vélez Málaga-Periana-Ventas de Zafarraya_


This line was meant to reach Granada, but construction was halted for good at Ventas de Zafarraya.
The section between Periana and Ventas de Zafarraya had such steep gradients that it required three rack rail sections, so no wonder it closed, as it made maintenance more expensive, as it ran through a not very populated area.
That said, had the section between Vélez Málaga and Periana survived, the area between the two would have developed rather more than it is now.
Note how it closed when tourism and urban development were beginning to be significant in the area, though, so...

HOWEVER...



> _-1968 - Málaga-Vélez Málaga_


This closure was simply unforgivable.
Had it stayed, today would be between very busy and overcrowded and saturated.
By 1968 the eastern Costa del Sol (aka the Axarquía), was already well developed, and there was a need for railway.
The main problem this line had, was that much of it used to run right at the sea front.
And keeping a balance between a sea front full of sunbathers and a well-functioning railway line was never going to be an easy thing.

Now it's all regrets, but a reopening was never going to be easy at all.

The Andalusian regional government tried, and opened a tramway line between Torre del Mar and Vélez Málaga in 2006, but the timing was just horrendous, as that should have been the last step of a reopening between Malaga and Torre del Mar, never the first.
So the Vélez Málaga tramway line was a huge flop, and had to be closed down in 2012.

A link: *Tranvía de Vélez-Málaga - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre*
(I chose the Spanish Wikipedia page as it is more complete, feel free to hop from it to the English version, though)

However, even if a railway line is probably necessary between Malaga and Torre del Mar, it is debatable whether that should have been the main focus of the railway planning of the Andalusian government.

BECAUSE THEN, THERE'S...



> _-1965 - San Julián-Coín_


This was the other closure.
Nowadays it hurts like hell, too, but much of it has been built on, and it would be really expensive to rebuild (and the way it could be rebuilt is quite a matter for debate as well).

Another link: *Ferrocarriles Suburbanos de Málaga - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre*
(this one's only in Spanish, and it probably should also be in English, so you'll need Google Translate)

One part of it survived for some time though, the one between San Julián and Malaga, as it was used by the trains of what used to be a branch line by a different company, the Malaga to Fuengirola line, which was back then a metric-gauge single-track diesel line.
And quite the opposite case to the Malaga-Vélez Málaga and Malaga-Coin lines.
A line that not only survived, but which now probably is the most saturated line in Spain, the one the most desperately in need of upgrades, and the one where upgrades are the most difficult to implement, because they'd be extremely expensive and also extremely disruptive.

Of the original Malaga to Coin line, right now probably only the area of a few metres in the immediate vicinity of San Julián station remains in service, now in Iberian gauge, electrified and still  in single track, as part of the Malaga to Fuengirola line.
The remainder between San Julian and Malaga port station was closed when the Fuengirola line was gauge-changed, and diverted via the Malaga airport towards Malaga-Maria Zambrano station.

The Malaga to Fuengirola line is the (huge) elephant in the Malaga room.
Nobody knows very well what to do with it.
It should have reached Algeciras, La Linea, Estepona, Marbella, and Mijas.
It never did (even though it's not like it probably should, it really must), and now it's a big headache, because the way it was upgraded in the mid-1970's has proven to be largely insufficient, and road traffic there is hellish in high season.
Even the 2000's upgrades were merely cosmetic.

Why the 1970's upgrade was insufficient, and the 2000's upgrades were, too?

The 1970's upgrade was insufficient because it didn't foresee the amount of passengers the line would end up having.
It was an upgrade that was not future-proofed enough, engineers only thought about the existing line, not about what lies between the Fuengirola station buffers and Algeciras.

And the 2000's upgrades were insufficient because instead of closing entirely the line and basically rebuilding it completely as a full double-track line, with up to three stations with a third track as a passing loop, they just double-tracked the easy parts.

True, much of the upgrades were really expensive too, such as the rebuilding of the line around the Malaga airport, and the underground section between Los Prados and Malaga Maria Zambrano, but those were related to the aiport extension, and to the new HSL to Malaga, so kudos to Adif for doing them, but... that's far from enough.

Ouside of the section between Malaga Maria Zambrano and the Malaga Airport, only three short sections have been double-tracked.
1) Campamento Benitez to La Colina.
2) El Pinillo to the Benalmádena tunnel (excluded).
3) Torremuelle to just east of the Torreblanca station platform.

There are two parts which could be double-tracked relatively easily.
1) Malaga Airport to Campamento Benítez.
2) Benalmádena-Arroyo de la Miel to Torremuelle
I don't think that they could allow for extra trains by themselves, but at least the line would be slightly less prone to disruptions in case of any incident.

The main problem is that the line has up to five bottlenecks, all very difficult to overcome.
1) The section between Malaga Maria Zambrano station and Malaga Centro Alameda, including Malaga Centro Alameda station.
2) The Torremolinos tunnel, including Torremolinos station.
3) Montemar Alto station.
4) The Benalmádena tunnel, including Benalmádena-Arroyo de la Miel station.
5) The whole section between the end of the single track at Torreblanca and Fuengirola station, including both Torreblanca and Los Boliches stations, a couple tunnels at Torreblanca, the Los Boliches viaduct, and the channel to the Fuengirola underground station.

Difficult...

Okay, so more on that later, on another post. 
Feel free to reply on this, though.

Now, the next batch of closed lines.


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## 437.001

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*VALENCIA*

It contains some closures that were really harsh, together with some others that were actually a good thing, strange as it might seem.
One constant - regaugings and non-regaugings.



> _- after 1939 (can't find the exact date) - Villanueva de Castellón-La Pobla Llarga_


I can't find the exact date of closure.
This was originally an isolated metric-gauge tramway line, but then CTFV built a line from Valencia Jesús to Villanueva de Castellón, and eventually ended up buying the tramway line and linking both lines.
It is little known, but it seems it was never electrified, so this probably ended up in the closure.
A pity. Some believe it would make sense to reopen it, as it would create a convenient interchange between the Cercanías Renfe and MetroValencia networks, and as it's quite a short stretch, this reopening wouldn't be particularly complicated or expensive. 



> _-1957 - Valencia Jesús-Nazaret_


This was the other CTFV metric-gauge southern line.
But it had to be closed after the devastating 1957 floods, as the line was so damaged.
A new tramway line loosely follows its route, and its construction is very delayed, as it got hit by the 2008 crisis.



> _-1972 - Sagunt-Port de Sagunt_ (did it ever have passenger service?)


*EDIT: 

-1972(? can't find the exact date) - Sagunt-Port de Sagunt*

Originally a metric-gauge line (part of the legendary Sierra Menera railway between Ojos Negros and Port de Sagunt), part of it was rebuilt and regauged to Iberian (and even electrified) not so long ago, as an access to the Port de Sagunt port.
*EDIT: Originally built in Iberian gauge and parallel to the metric-gauge Sierra Menera railway between Sagunt and Port de Sagunt, it had passenger service for workers on the steel industry, and it was electrified (haven't worked out the voltage yet). At some point the passenger service ceased, and the line closed in 1984. Part of it was reopened and reelectrified not so long ago, but only for freight.*
Some claim that it should also be reopened for commuter rail service, as Port de Sagunt is one of the largest towns in Valencia without a railway service.
It wouldn't be particularly difficult to do, the main problem would be on the main line between Sagunt and Valencia though (not a lot of room to cram many more trains in).

The following two closures are linked, as they were part of the same plan.
One was actually a good thing, the other is one of the nastiest railway line closures in Spain.
They were both part of the same original line (Carcaixent-Gandia-Dénia), which Renfe decided to partly upgrade and regauge... which led to Renfe being unable to completing it, and creating a big problem where previously there was a smaller problem.

The story goes thus...



> _-1969 - Carcaixent-Tavernes de la Valldigna_ (closure related to the change of gauge of Tavernes de la Valldigna-Gandia)


Ok, so in 1969 the metric-gauge line between Carcaixent and Gandia was closed, as that was the first step of a plan to upgrade the railway access to the Costa Blanca from Valencia.
Renfe (Adif hadn't been split from Renfe yet) decided to extend the Silla to Cullera line (which in its turn, also used to be a metric-gauge line in the beginning that sometime in the early 20th century was regauged to Iberian) towards Gandia, as a first step to reach Dénia (and probably later Benidorm then Alicante).

So that was done, and a short new Iberian-gauge section was built from scratch between Cullera and Tavernes de la Valldigna, which was connected to the regauged section between Tavernes de la Valldigna and Gandia. The regauging also included the Gandia to Platja de Gandia section of the Alcoy to Gandia metric-gauge line, which had been closed in 1969 too.
All of this is now in service, was electrified in the 1990's, and actually there's a plan to double track it between Cullera and Gandia, as the line's rather busy.

But then...



> _-1974 - Gandia-Oliva-Dénia_ (provisory closure and dismantling in 1974, to be regauged to Iberian, works never started, officially closed in 1984!!!)


In 1974, they closed Gandia to Dénia.
They dismantled the line.
I remember how in the early 1980's railway network maps showed Gandia to Dénia as "under construction".
But construction works never started.
And the line ended up being officially closed in 1984, and in some sections it's been built on since then.

This left the Costa Blanca without rail continuity between Valencia and Alicante, when there used to be such a connection, although it used to require a change at Carcaixent from a metric-gauge train to an Iberian-gauge train.

Now there's the plan to rebuild that line, although probably following a slightly different alignment in places.
For now, the plans include only Gandia to Oliva, as Oliva to Dénia looks a bit more complicated, as that would involve a long debate about whether the thing to do should be changing the gauge of the Dénia to Alicante line or building a new line instead.

Patience... 

Had they completed the change of gauge from Gandia all the way to Dénia, be in no doubt that the line would now probably be double-tracked, and most certainly electrified.
Even more so had they dared to continue the gauge change further on towards Benidorm and Alicante.



> -1985 - Riba-roja del Túria-Vilamarxant-Llíria


This closure was a bit silly, but only in hindsight.
The line was in Iberian gauge, and a bit neglected.
As there's another (metric-gauge) line from Valencia to Llíria, the Valencian regional government decided to fund the maintenance of the line only between Valencia and Riba-roja, allowing the closure of the remainder of the line towards Llíria, because only one town (Vilamarxant) would be affected, as the other two (Benaguassil and Llíria) already had stations on the other line, which is now part of MetroValencia. 
So it kind of made sense to close it in its day.

The problem is... that many years later, the line from Valencia to Riba-roja was also closed between Xirivella-L'Alter station and Riba-roja, because the section between Quart de Poblet and Riba-roja was transferred to MetroValencia, regauged from Iberian to metric (with a new branch to the Valencia airport), and is now a fully functioning MetroValencia line.

So now some believe that the missing part between Riba-roja and Llíria should be reinstated, as that would create a better access from Llíria to the airport.

Who would have guessed? That said, the line's not particularly difficult to reopen.

But then again, it created a strange side-effect.
Goes as follows...



> -2021 (can anyone confirm this?) -Valencia Sant Isidre-Xirivella L'Alter


When the Valencia to Riba-roja Renfe Iberian gauge line was transferred to MetroValencia between Quart de Poblet and Riba-roja, for some reason, Adif and Renfe decided to keep the remainder of the Iberian-gauge line between Valencia Sant Isidre and Xirivella-L'Alter stations open.
However, it would have been better to close it, as there's another Xirivella station on the Valencia to Utiel Cercanías line.
So actually, closing it would save both Renfe and Adif some money, as it is very little used.
But it seems like the Coronavirus might have done it. If so, then good.


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## 437.001

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The next two areas, Alicante and Murcia, can easily come together.
Not that many closures of commuter rail lines, actually, although one in particular (Torrevieja) showed a particular lack of foresight.
The deep (and many) railway problems this two regions have are of another kind.
I've included the Alicante part of Gandia to Dénia in the post above, as that part leans more towards Valencia than towards Alicante (and does not lean towards Murcia at all).

*ALICANTE*



> -1970 - San Isidro Albatera Catral-Torrevieja (passengers, line closed completely only in 1985!!!)


This is one of the most regretted closures, at least in hindsight.
There are plans to reopen it, but they never seem to turn into anything solid.
When it closed for passengers back in 1970, Torrevieja had a population slightly under 10,000.
Not counting the tourists.
When it was closed for freight in 1985, Torrevieja had a population slightly under 20,000.
Not counting the tourists.
In 2001, Torrevieja had a population over 50,000.
And in 2011, Torrevieja had a population over 100,000.
In 2021 it has shrunken to 84,000 (Brexit?).
Not counting the tourists.
Anyway, it still remains one of the largest towns in Spain without a railway line.



> - unfinished line - Agost-Alcoy


A line that was left unfinished, and is now a cycling lane in some sections.
How busy would it be now? Probably a bit.

*MURCIA*



> -1971 - Murcia Zaraiche-Molina del Segura-Alguazas Molina-Caravaca de la Cruz


This closure was a bit harsh back in the day, as it came right after the line had been upgraded.
The part between Espinardo and Murcia is loosely followed by the Murcia tramway, so perhaps a tramway extension could happen some time in the future.



> -.unfinished line - Totana-La Pinilla-Cartagena





> - unfinished line - La Pinilla-Mazarrón


These two unfinished lines are now partly a cycling lane 
I don't know how busy would they be now, but probably a bit, as they would have enhanced the connectivity in the area.


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## 437.001

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Now we go north, to the Basque Country.
I'll treat it as a whole, as it's not very big.

As you will see, there were many closures there (and I'm not counting tramways!).

All of them of metric-gauge lines (the Basque government sometimes referring to metric gauge as "Basque gauge").
Had they kept all of these lines, the Basque Country would now have a Swiss-like network, in terms of coverage.

Its main problems are different though.

One is lack of connections between different lines at Bilbao (and to a lesser degree, San Sebastian and Irun).

Another one, which can be extended to the rest of Northern Spain regions (Cantabria, Asturias, Galicia), was the non-existence of Iberian gauge on the main line along the coast (which in fact isn't a main line, but a continuity of different lines that were built separately, which sometimes led to bad connectivity between lines, as I said).

And another one is the complicated and mountainous Basque geography, where the straight line is sometimes insurmountable (aka between very expensive and too expensive).


*BISCAY (BILBAO)*



> -_1966 -Traslaviña-Castro Urdiales_


Castro Urdiales is in Cantabria, not in the Basque Country, however it has a lot of commuters to and from Bilbao.
The line was closed in 1966, and I'm not certain it would be of much use nowadays, as it really didn't follow the shortest route (while the motorway does).
So unless a new line between Bilbao and Santander is built (and there's talk about that), I don't really see rail coming back to Castro Urdiales.




> -_1969 - Matiko-Azbarren (Ariz Basauri)_


This one was mostly an underground branch (with at least three underground stations) that closed after the collapse of a tunnel.
I think part of it was reused as part of the tunnels of the Bilbao Metro.
So I don't know how much can we talk about a "closed line" in this particular case.
It used to be electrified.



> -_ *1971*(1972? can't find the exact date) - Durango-Elorrio_


Would probably carry as many passengers as the Amorebieta to Gernika and Bermeo line if it had survived.
It used to be electrified.



> -_1975 - Sondika-Mungia_


It was closed because of an extension of the Bilbao airport.
It used to be electrified.
Had the Basque government taken hold of this line before the closure, it would most probably still be open.



*GUIPUZCOA (SAN SEBASTIAN)*



> -_1956 - Irun-Elizondo_


This line linked Irun Colon station (on the Topo line) to some towns in northern Navarre, an area that leans more towards Irun and San Sebastian than towards Pamplona.
Closure came soon, and the line was not electrified (and I actually wonder whether it even got to have diesel trains or it was steam-powered from start to finish).
Part of it is a rather beautiful cycling lane.



> -_1958 - Loiola-Astigarraga-Hernani_


This was a branch of the Topo.
Unlike the Topo main line (San Sebastian to Irun and Hendaye), it had large parts of tramway-like platform, which didn't help its survival.
However, since the closure, the town of Astigarraga is train-less, and between Loiola and Astigarraga the line was grade-separated.
It was electrified, like the Topo main line, and actually shared the rolling stock with it.



> -_1958 - Lasarte Oria-Andoain-Plazaola-Leitza_ (and on to Pamplona)


The section between Lasarte and Lasarte Oria was reopened not so many years ago.
I wonder about the section between Lasarte Oria and Andoain, but it looks difficult.
Much of the remainder between Andoain and Pamplona is a cycling lane.
It wasn't electrified, but the reopened part between Lasarte and Lasarte Oria did reopen electrified.



> -_1967 - Mekolalde-Bergara-San Prudencio-Mondragon-Eskoriatza_ (and on to Vitoria and Estella)
> -_ (*1967*? can't find the exact date) - San Prudencio-Oñati_


The part between Mekolalde and Vitoria would probably have survived if the Basque government had managed to lay its hands on it.
It used to be electrified all the way from Mekolalde to Estella (in Navarre), including the Oñati branch.



> -_1975 - Maltzaga-Mekolalde-Bergara-Zumarraga_


The part between Maltzaga and Mekolalde would have probably survived had the Basque government had controlled it.
The part between Mekolalde and Zumarraga was a mountain line, and I don't think it would have survived.
It used to be electrified.



> -_1988 - Zumaia-Azpeitia-Azkoitia-Zumarraga_


This line was closed by the Basque government after so many years of neglect.
So I don't think it would have survived had the Basque government controlled it.
There were plans to upgrade it, though, but the politicians decided it was cheaper not to.
Had they upgraded it, it wouldn't be empty...
It used to be electrified.


----------



## 437.001

🔼🔼🔼
The following two northern Spain regions have managed to remain lightly affected by railway closures.
Only two closures, one for each region, plus an unfinished line for each region.

*CANTABRIA (SANTANDER)*



> _-1973 - La Cueva La Penilla - Ontaneda
> -1976 - Astillero-La Cueva La Penilla_


This metric gauge line was closed in two stages, most of it is now a cycling lane I think.
Had it stayed open, it's not unlikely that it would have been electrified, and some of the services now terminating at Astillero from Santander would probably run on it.



> - unfinished line - Boo-Villacarriedo (and on to Santelices)


This would-be Iberian gauge line was part of the Santander-Mediterráneo line, which was left unfinished on its Cantabria section.
Part of it is now a cycling lane.


*ASTURIAS (OVIEDO/GIJON)*



> _-1999 - Oviedo Vasco-Fuso de la Reina (_closure related to the change of gauge of Oviedo-Trubia_)
> -1999 - Trubia-Fuso de la Reina-Baiña (_passengers, the line remains open_)_


The closure of Oviedo Vasco to Fuso de la Reina happened once the Oviedo to Trubia Iberian gauge line was regauged to metric, as a part of the network simplification at Oviedo, which helped concentrate all the Iberian and metric gauge lines in just one station.

This also led to the closure for passengers of Trubia to Baiña, as that became a redundancy with the Iberian gauge Cercanías service on the main line between Gijon and Leon.
It remains open for freight and technical movements of rolling stock, though.



> _-unfinished line - Pravia-Cangas de Narcea_


A metric-gauge line that was left unfinished.
I don't know how much of it remains.


----------



## 437.001

🔼🔼🔼

*MAJORCA*

The Mallorca case was a bit special.
All the lines in Mallorca used to have a 914mm gauge.
They were gradually closed, except the Palma to Inca line (which was regauged from 914mm gauge to metric gauge), and the Palma to Sóller line (which remains in a 914mm gauge and is a tourist line these days).
However, the lines between Inca and Sa Pobla (in 1997) and between Inca and Manacor (in 2003) were reopened, two of the very few line reopenings that have happened in Spain (and the most significant).

However, many other lines remain closed.



> _-1941 - Consell-Alaró_


Just a short spur. Wouldn't make much sense to reopen it.



> -_1964 - Palma-Llucmajor-Campos-Santanyí_


This would be welcome if they reopened, but significant parts of it have been built on.



> -_1965 - Palma-Palma Port_ (never had passenger service. I actually am discovering its existence, it was underground!!! WTF!!! Its reopening for passengers was discussed for many years, but if was finally discarded as they built two underground car parks.  )


Like I said, I'm just discovering its existence.
More info on it would be welcome.



> -_1967 - Santa Maria-Porreres-Felanitx_


This would also be quite welcome if it reopened.
I'm not sure how much of it has been built on.



> -_1977 - Manacor-Artà_ (reopening planned, reopening works started in 2009, but then halted in 2011, turned into a cycling path in 2014  )


This line, which was meant to be reopened, got hit in full by the 2008 crisis and later on by a particularly nimby regional government, and now probably won't reopen. Pity.


----------



## alserrod

In Zaragoza area there wasn't any closure in the 1980-90ish but a great deal of stations in the neaby

Just two examples

El Burgo de Ebro, 








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





all trains stopped there. OK, just three per day but may you wanna use it, it could be useful... and trains are not full

Utebo
All trains called in a station located where now we have the commuter station one. OK, 9 per day, 6 to Castejon, 3 to Calatayud only... but it was a service.
I remember former "Utebo station???". It didn't had any platforms!!!!!

A great deal of examples are possible to point how commuter stations had a closure and there's not any commuter service in most of these lines


----------



## entfe001

arctic_carlos said:


> Indeed. I would add the 4 narrow-gauge lines near Girona (Girona-Olot anf Girona-Sant Feliu de Guíxols - closed in 1969- and Girona-Palamós and Girona-Banyoles - closed in 1956), and near Tarragona the narrow-gauge line Reus-Salou - closed in 1975-, which could have easily become commuter lines, if they hadn’t been closed.


About the four Girona narrow gauge lines:


Girona - Banyoles is, probably, the line that nowadays could get a better ridership in a shortest term. Discounting the toll road from Barcelona to the french border, for many years the only highway on the Girona area was the one linking these two municipalities.
The main problem with the Girona - Olot line nowadays is that it ran along small towns and the geography dictates a someewhat hard layout. So, accounting for the only enough big demand at both ends[1] and a rugged terrain that would either limit the operating speed or require some really big earthworks, this line as it was on the past is quite unlikely to be restored. However, Olot is not that far from Banyoles and inbetween there is Besalú, a town with a strong touristic appeal due to its medieval bridge. If Olot were to ever recover rail service, it would be via Banyoles instead of the ancient line.
Girona - Palamós ran through the northern side of the Gavarres, the mountain range dividing Girona from the coastal line. Up until Flaçà it will not be restored as it would run parallel to the Barcelona - Portbou wide gauge line. The main strong point would be serving La Bisbal d'Empordà, but even so I think it would be hard for this line to gain ridership for its own, however...
Girona - Sant Feliu is the line for which local entities have historically asked for its restoration and even several projects have been proposed so far. Southern Costa Brava have a very touristic potential, not only Sant Feliu de Guíxols but several more coastal towns northwards like Platja d'Aro or Sant Antoni de Calonge. Furthermore, this route would allow to reach Palamós from the south, which has more potential than the north route from the aforementioned line. However, a full circle between the enlarged Sant Feliu line joined with the northern Palamós makes more sense. This is the line with the most potential overall on the coastal area, as long as it's properly connected to the current railway "network" --well, having a single line crossing north-south hardly constitutes a "nework"...
[1] One big exception exists between Girona and Salt, neighbouring cities which nowadays are unban joined. For this relation a tram service would be a better option than a railway line.


----------



## 437.001

arctic_carlos said:


> Indeed. I would add the 4 narrow-gauge lines near Girona (Girona-Olot anf Girona-Sant Feliu de Guíxols - closed in 1969- and Girona-Palamós and Girona-Banyoles - closed in 1956), and near Tarragona the narrow-gauge line Reus-Salou - closed in 1975-, which could have easily become commuter lines, if they hadn’t been closed.


I'm not sure about the totality of that.
Like entfe001 said, in the Girona lines there would be some inconveniences.

The one which would have the better case, in my view, would be the Sant Feliu line, as most of the trackbed's preserved as a cycling lane. If they reopened it, it would be busy.

The Olot line crosses some not very populated towns (Salt excepted, but that's part of the Girona urban area so doesn't really count). But most of the trackbed's preserved as well, as a cycling lane.

Reopening the Banyoles line would be great... if the alignment hadn't completely disappeared as it was engulfed by the extension of the road. It would have to be rebuilt from scratch, and that wouldn't be easy or cheap.

Same for the Flaçà to Palamós line, most of the track is now under asphalt. However, reopening Girona to Flaçà wouldn't make sense, as that'd be a slower, single-track redundancy to the Barcelona-Portbou/Cerbère main line.

As for Reus-Salou... all of the line is under asphalt.
Would make sense to reopen only as a tram, not commuter rail.
And the tram, which you know it's being discussed for years now, is something a bit complicated to implement, due to the area being urbanistically complicated enough, in terms of what to prioritize.
No one seems to be able to completely agree on which route to follow.



alserrod said:


> In Zaragoza area there wasn't any closure in the 1980-90ish but a great deal of stations in the neaby


Yes there were.
Tudela-Tarazona, Caminreal-Calatayud, Calatayud-Cidad Dosante, and Ariza-Valladolid.
All closed in 1985 and were partly in Zaragoza.
However, these were hardly commuter rail lines, or potential commuter rail lines, which is what I meant.

I got the point of the rest of your message though, and you're right.
But that's not just valid for Zaragoza, many other places have this problem.

Sometimes they closed stations for unknown reasons, without properly thinking whether they could be useful or not.
And sometimes certain stations should have been relocated, as they could be useful, but not so much in the location they had.
And sometimes it was the access to certain stations that was not good enough.
And sometimes it was Renfe which decided to give certain stations very bad stopping patterns for no reason at all.


----------



## alserrod

The issue I pointed was that in the 1980ish, all regional trains called in all stations. Nowadays, half of them had a closure. Sometimes because not enough population but, nevertheless, around the city, all were closed.

They could be used for a short journey and it is not possible nowadays


----------



## 437.001

alserrod said:


> The issue I pointed was that in the 1980ish, *all* regional trains called in all stations.


I'm not sure that's accurate. I'll have to check that out.
I get your point though, and at least in part, you are right.



alserrod said:


> Nowadays, half of them had a closure. Sometimes because not enough population but, nevertheless, around the city, all were closed.


And one was reopened.



alserrod said:


> They could be used for a short journey and it is not possible nowadays


Yes. Although in some cases the location of the station in certain cases was not the ideal one, or the better one, for increasing the number of passengers.
Take Cuarte de Huerva or Cadrete for instance.
And then there's the issue of the Goya tunnel, which was hindered by the HSL.


----------



## alserrod

I was just saying I remember using a regional train and having some calls in the first km around the city. Nowadays, there are some exemptions but trains do not call anywhere.
There are a lot of examples (yeah, Utebo station was build after trains didn't stop for more than 15 years). May the would be full, I agree, but they do not have so many passengers and... a commuter passenger is one passenger more. I am not talking about extra stations, just historical stations


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## entfe001

437.001 said:


> The one which would have the better case, in my view, would be the Sant Feliu line, as most of the trackbed's preserved as a cycling lane. If they reopened it, it would be busy.


It won't be that easy. Leaving aside that the trackbed was for a narrow, single-track line with all the inconveniencies this carries (lower curve radius means lower speed), there are some relevant places where the trackbed is cut or implies an important detour. For instance, the N-II underpass or the Cassà area. Then, there's the problem to fit the tracks on the grown towns where it passed. The sections where you could reuse the trackbed are the ones that would be cheaper to rebuild, at least between Girona and Llagostera where the terrain is mostly flat. Between Llagostera and Santa Cristina d'Aro the trackbed was eaten by the C-31 highway.



437.001 said:


> The Olot line crosses some not very populated towns (Salt excepted, but that's part of the Girona urban area so doesn't really count). But most of the trackbed's preserved as well, as a cycling lane.


While in this case trying to reuse the trackbed would be more economic-wise due to the rugged terrain there, the trackbed isn't intact either. If I'm not mistaken, the road tunnel east of Sant Esteve d'en Bas was originally used by the railway, and the cycling lane is diverted over the ancient road, which won't be usable for rail at all.



437.001 said:


> Reopening the Banyoles line would be great... if the alignment hadn't completely disappeared as it was engulfed by the extension of the road. It would have to be rebuilt from scratch, and that wouldn't be easy or cheap.


As for the Sant Feliu line, terrain is flat and the more expensive rebuild would come from urban services, so the savings would be not that great.



437.001 said:


> Same for the Flaçà to Palamós line, most of the track is now under asphalt. However, reopening Girona to Flaçà wouldn't make sense, as that'd be a slower, single-track redundancy to the Barcelona-Portbou/Cerbère main line.


Agreed on no point over the Girona - Flaçà section.

IMHO considering only to rebuild over the previous trackbed is a bad idea which will only serve as excuse for doing nothing in the best scenario, being the worst having a bad profile line limiting both speed and capacity.

P.S: for completeness, current Girona - Sant Feliu and Girona - Olot cycle paths. For the latter, the south varaint between Bescanó and Girona was the one used by the ancient railway.


----------



## 437.001

*News*

In this official press release in Spanish...

*Mitma aprueba definitivamente el estudio informativo del baipás para trenes de mercancías de ancho métrico en Santander | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana*

The ministry announces that a new chord will be built in Santander, linking the Santander-Bilbao and Oviedo-Santander metric gauge lines, next to Cazoña station.
Thus, freight trains will be able to avoid an annoying reversal at Santander station.


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> *News*
> 
> In this official press release in Spanish...
> 
> *Mitma aprueba definitivamente el estudio informativo del baipás para trenes de mercancías de ancho métrico en Santander | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana*
> 
> The ministry announces that a new chord will be built in Santander, linking the Santander-Bilbao and Oviedo-Santander metric gauge lines, next to Cazoña station.
> Thus, freight trains will be able to avoid an annoying reversal at Santander station.


On the subject of the ancho metrico, what happened about the "metro" in Gijon? Is there any plan to finish it?


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> On the subject of the ancho metrico, what happened about the "metro" in Gijon? Is there any plan to finish it?


So it seems, but Adif has such a LONG to-do list that can't just do it all at once.

Lately they've been focussing very much on the different HSL's (I guess because they're able to get EU funds).

They have five HSL corridors which are top priority (Galicia, Murcia-Almeria, Basque Y,
Toledo-Extremadura-Portugal, Pajares base tunnels).

This will keep on taking a good chunk of the annual budget, although thankfully the most expensive one (Galicia) is as good as finished and won't take long to open with an end-to-end HSL continuity.

But improvements on commuter rail services (Cercanías), on regional classic lines, and also on metric gauge lines are also very much needed.


----------



## Khaul

Will then Ourense-Santiago and even Coruña-Vigo be regauged?


----------



## 437.001

Khaul said:


> Will then Ourense-Santiago and even Coruña-Vigo be regauged?


Not soon, no.
That's because it doesn't make much sense to do it now, because Coruña-Vigo has freight, part of which continues on towards Portugal, so right now it wouldn't make sense as it would cause extra disruption.
And regauging Ourense-Santiago would complicate exploitation at Ourense station.

And anyway, travel times from Galicia to Madrid are being massively improved (and also between Galicia and much of the rest of Spain, particularly once the Olmedo chord and the HS link between Madrid-Chamartin and Torrejon de Velasco get finished).

Ideally, the gauge change in Galicia should happen once the rest of the country starts changing its gauge for freight.
That is something that's being planned between Tarragona and Castellon, but which will pose exploitation problems both north of Tarragona and south of Castellon.
Without a gauge change of the classic network around Barcelona, things will be complicated.
Right now there's a 3rd rail in works between Castellbisbal (near Barcelona) and Vilaseca (next to Tarragona), and also between Castellon and Valencia, and between Valencia and Almussafes (south of Valencia).
Also between Irun/Hendaye and San Sebastian.

From Tarragona the standard gauge on classic lines should also expand towards Zaragoza, Madrid, and Seville, Malaga, Huelva, Cadiz and Algeciras, but there are talks about how to do it, because installing a 3rd rail all over the network is just not useful, as that would be too expensive, so the idea of a full gauge change for the entire classic network starts taling hold, slowly.


----------



## Sunfuns

Do you think a HS branch between Ourense and Vigo will happen? I've seen all kinds of plans with maps and everything, but how realistic they are I don't know.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Everywhere I read that "we cannot change the gauge of that line because of freight". But freight trains in Spain are like an endangered species only present in some zoos. They try to do everythign to keep the few survivor of the species "not dead", instead of trying to keep the species alive in nature increasing its population. And to do that, regauge everything ASAP.


----------



## alserrod

Sunfuns said:


> Do you think a HS branch between Ourense and Vigo will happen? I've seen all kinds of plans with maps and everything, but how realistic they are I don't know.


No I do not. There are a lot of branches that could be improved saving time.
In other words. Point to point, how much time will be saved (providing there's a line over Santiago) and how much money does it cost?


----------



## 592

437.001 said:


> Not soon, no.
> That's because it doesn't make much sense to do it now, because Coruña-Vigo has freight, part of which continues on towards Portugal, so right now it wouldn't make sense as it would cause extra disruption.
> And regauging Ourense-Santiago would complicate exploitation at Ourense station.
> 
> And anyway, travel times from Galicia to Madrid are being massively improved (and also between Galicia and much of the rest of Spain, particularly once the Olmedo chord and the HS link between Madrid-Chamartin and Torrejon de Velasco get finished).
> 
> Ideally, the gauge change in Galicia should happen once the rest of the country starts changing its gauge for freight.
> That is something that's being planned between Tarragona and Castellon, but which will pose exploitation problems both north of Tarragona and south of Castellon.
> Without a gauge change of the classic network around Barcelona, things will be complicated.
> Right now there's a 3rd rail in works between Castellbisbal (near Barcelona) and Vilaseca (next to Tarragona), and also between Castellon and Valencia, and between Valencia and Almussafes (south of Valencia).
> Also between Irun/Hendaye and San Sebastian.
> 
> From Tarragona the standard gauge on classic lines should also expand towards Zaragoza, Madrid, and Seville, Malaga, Huelva, Cadiz and Algeciras, but there are talks about how to do it, because installing a 3rd rail all over the network is just not useful, as that would be too expensive, so the idea of a full gauge change for the entire classic network starts taking hold, slowly.


IMO, the short term solution should be regauging the Portbou-Barcelona (via Granollers) classic line, and the Barcelona-Sant Vicenç (via Vilanova) too, with mixed gauge in the Sant Vicenç-Reus stretch. That would allow the both the Barcelona-Valencia IC's and the Tortosa semi-fasts to keep running, remove freight off the Barcelona-Figueres HSL, increasing its speed, and finally start the regauging process. The only problem would be the Móra/Zaragoza via Móra/Lleida services, which would have to take a lengthy detour through the Llobregat Valley. The gauge change of the Mediterranean mainline doesn't really pose any major exploitation problems south of Castelló, except for the fact that València-Nord would need to be fitted with standard gauge platforms. The traditional "Golden Tower" Barcelona-Seville via València and Alcázar service would need to change gauge at València (I don't think it's possible to do so at Albacete coming via La Encina without a double reversal but I'm not sure)

About mixed gauge, it should only be used in short stretches of track, longer parts just cause trouble (like the València-Castelló line).

As Alserrod said, the Cerdedo variant is unlikely to actually be built, it's simply a too small gain for a very long line. Especially when the Vigo-Porriño direct line will be built, which will shave around 12 minutes of travel time (it currently requires an absurd detour via Redondela) and tip the balance back to the Miño Valley line.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Do you think a HS branch between Ourense and Vigo will happen? I've seen all kinds of plans with maps and everything, but how realistic they are I don't know.


We're moving a bit off-topic here towards the high-speed thread, so if you don't mind that, I'll answer that there.

So click here below 🔽 to follow that part of the conversation: 
*SPAIN | High Speed Rail | Page 236 | SkyscraperCity*



Coccodrillo said:


> Everywhere I read that "we cannot change the gauge of that line because of freight". But freight trains in Spain are like an endangered species only present in some zoos. They try to do everythign to keep the few survivor of the species "not dead", instead of trying to keep the species alive in nature increasing its population. And to do that, regauge everything ASAP.


Oh but Cocco, in Switzerland you're lucky not to have the rail gauge problems that we have in Spain.
With the amount of ill-advised decisions made in the last two hundred years in Spain, and not just the ones regarding railways, I wonder where you'd be as a country were you to find yourselves in the same situation.



592 said:


> IMO, the short term solution should be regauging the Portbou-Barcelona (via Granollers) classic line, and the Barcelona-Sant Vicenç (via Vilanova) too, with mixed gauge in the Sant Vicenç-Reus stretch. That would allow the both the Barcelona-Valencia IC's and the Tortosa semi-fasts to keep running, remove freight off the Barcelona-Figueres HSL, increasing its speed, and finally start the regauging process. The only problem would be the Móra/Zaragoza via Móra/Lleida services, which would have to take a lengthy detour through the Llobregat Valley.


I think that there's scope to change gauge in a few phases from both Portbou and Latour-de-Carol to Zaragoza, in as few phases as possible.
Of course the disruption would be huge during the works, particularly at Barcelona and to a lesser degree Valencia, but that would be ideal.
From that point on, you could then proceed to change gauge in other areas of the country, and I'd rather start with the southern half (although by me saying this, the northern Spaniards will complain, and I don't like that either, but the cost of doing it all in just one go is just unaffordable... or so I think).

I'd do this, mainly because once you do that, you can then forget about it, because that's a problem solved.

The questions about doing it are "when", "how", "for how much", and "for how long".
And those are tricky questions.



592 said:


> The gauge change of the Mediterranean mainline doesn't really pose any major exploitation problems south of Castelló, except for the fact that València-Nord would need to be fitted with standard gauge platforms.


That's not really a problem, I believe. More of a technicality.
The Cabanyal tunnel is more of a problem, in fact, but not an insurmountable one.



592 said:


> The traditional "Golden Tower" Barcelona-Seville via València and Alcázar service would need to change gauge at València (I don't think it's possible to do so at Albacete coming via La Encina without a double reversal but I'm not sure)


It is possible, yes.
And it is likely that once the Valencia-La Encina HSL opens (but if and only if the chord at La Encina that allows Valencia-Albacete trains gets finished - right now it has no rails), it will be possible for a train to do Barcelona-Valencia-Albacete-Alcazar-Linares-Seville with a change of gauge at Valencia and then another one at Alcolea de Cordoba.
That said, no dates can be assured for that.



592 said:


> About mixed gauge, it should only be used in short stretches of track, longer parts just cause trouble (like the València-Castelló line).


Yes, very true.


----------



## Sunfuns

Spain also has an advantage over Switzerland - a great access to the sea from two sides. Moving freight by sea is the cheapest option lessening the need for freight railways somewhat.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Spain also has an advantage over Switzerland - a great access to the sea from two sides. *Moving freight by sea is the cheapest option lessening the need for freight railways somewhat*.


The cheapest, maybe, I don't know. The fastest? I'm not sure about that.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> The cheapest, maybe, I don't know. The fastest? I'm not sure about that.


Definitely not the fastest, but for many categories of freight cheap trumps fast.


----------



## 437.001

*News

Rolling stock*

Renfe has just awarded two simultaneous contracts for new metric gauge EMU's.

One, for €8.8 million, for new metric gauge EMU's to replace the oldest ex-Feve rolling stock, likely class 435 (former Feve class 3500) and class 438 (former Feve class 3800), which run in the metric gauge Cercanías lines in Asturias and Cantabria.

The other, for €3.3 million, for new metric gauge EMU's adapted to alpine lines, to replace the oldest Cercanías Renfe Madrid rolling stock, class 442 EMU's, which run on Madrid line C9 (Cercedilla-Cotos).

The lot goes to CAF.

Source: *Licitaciones (renfe.com)*

Class 435 (built between 1977 and the mid-1980's):
*FEVE 3500 in Muros de Nalón - Renfe Feve - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre*

Class 442 (built between 1976 and 1982):
*Cercanias-madrid-c9-line-train-cotos - Serie 442 de Renfe - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre*

Both are around or over 40 years old, they really need a replacement.
In fact, line C9 in Madrid isn't running, because class 442 were withdrawn in 2020. 

Class 438 are newer (built in 1992), but technically very obsolete.
*J22 780 Bf Santander FEVE, ES 6808 - Renfe Feve - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre*


----------



## 592

437.001 said:


> *News
> 
> Rolling stock*
> 
> Renfe has just awarded two simultaneous contracts for new metric gauge EMU's.
> 
> One, for €8.8 million, for new metric gauge EMU's to replace the oldest ex-Feve rolling stock, likely class 435 (former Feve class 3500) and class 438 (former Feve class 3800), which run in the metric gauge Cercanías lines in Asturias and Cantabria.
> 
> The other, for €3.3 million, for new metric gauge EMU's adapted to alpine lines, to replace the oldest Cercanías Renfe Madrid rolling stock, class 442 EMU's, which run on Madrid line C9 (Cercedilla-Cotos).
> 
> The lot goes to CAF.
> 
> Source: *Licitaciones (renfe.com)*
> 
> Class 435 (built between 1977 and the mid-1980's):
> *FEVE 3500 in Muros de Nalón - Renfe Feve - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre*
> 
> Class 442 (built between 1976 and 1982):
> *Cercanias-madrid-c9-line-train-cotos - Serie 442 de Renfe - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre*
> 
> Both are around or over 40 years old, they really need a replacement.
> In fact, line C9 in Madrid isn't running, because class 442 were withdrawn in 2020.
> 
> Class 438 are newer (built in 1992), but technically very obsolete.
> *J22 780 Bf Santander FEVE, ES 6808 - Renfe Feve - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre*


IMO line c-9 should just be closed. It's a tourist line that doesn't serve any population centers, it's slower than bus 691, it's insanely expensive and fails to deliver a profit.

On the FEVE part, it is good news that they will receive new units (the shortage is so bad that all Oviedo-Laviana services are cancelled, passengers having to change at El Berrón), but the hybrids' delay was clearly a mistake. New hydrogen units might be unreliable now, but it's highly unlikely that they'll be worse than the 2400, 2700 and 2900's running regional services. Is there any progress being made in Karrantza-Marrón or Ribadesella-Llanes electrification?


----------



## 437.001

592 said:


> IMO line c-9 should just be closed. It's a tourist line that doesn't serve any population centers, it's slower than bus 691, it's insanely expensive and fails to deliver a profit.


Each and every commuter rail line in Europe, exception made of (maybe) RER A in Paris, does fail to deliver a profit.
I think you should probably look at the number of trains per day and the compulsory booking in advance of tickets (do you know about any other commuter rail line which has this?), to find a reason why line C9 lost passengers.
On the other hand, any electric railway line is cleaner than a bus.



592 said:


> On the FEVE part, it is good news that they will receive new units (the shortage is so bad that all Oviedo-Laviana services are cancelled, passengers having to change at El Berrón), but the hybrids' delay was clearly a mistake. New hydrogen units might be unreliable now, but it's highly unlikely that they'll be worse than the 2400, 2700 and 2900's running regional services.


The hybrid trains were in Iberian gauge.



592 said:


> Is there any progress being made in Karrantza-Marrón or Ribadesella-Llanes electrification?


There aren't any electrification plans for Carranza-Marron or Ribadesella-Llanes.
At least not under Adif.


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> *News
> 
> Rolling stock*
> 
> Renfe has just awarded two simultaneous contracts for new metric gauge EMU's.
> 
> One, for €8.8 million, for new metric gauge EMU's to replace the oldest ex-Feve rolling stock, likely class 435 (former Feve class 3500) and class 438 (former Feve class 3800), which run in the metric gauge Cercanías lines in Asturias and Cantabria.
> 
> The other, for €3.3 million, for new metric gauge EMU's adapted to alpine lines, to replace the oldest Cercanías Renfe Madrid rolling stock, class 442 EMU's, which run on Madrid line C9 (Cercedilla-Cotos).


Are those costs right? €12.1m will buy maybe 6 units


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## 437.001

Stuu said:


> Are those costs right? €12.1m will buy maybe 6 units


That's what I've been wondering.
Not sure if you talk about British costs or not, though. In the UK things seem to be more expensive...
And we're talking about metric-gauge EMU's, which have to be a bit less expensive than Iberian or standard gauge EMU's (size matters, I suppose).
Then...

Class 435 it's 8 trains (the others are either scrapped, reformed and now part of class 433, and in one case cannibalized).
Class 438 it's 16 trains.
Class 442 it's 6 trains (although there are 5 left, the sixth one was scrapped years ago).


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## 437.001

Stuu said:


> Are those costs right? €12.1m will buy maybe 6 units


After some research, I think that €8.8 million and €3.3 million must be the cost per EMU.

If I'm right, then it probably will be 31 EMU's for the northern lines (Asturias/Cantabria), plus 6 EMU's for the Madrid line (which is a mountain line and needs special rolling stock).

Awaiting confirmation, though.


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## 437.001

*News

Electrification (for freight)*

I hadn't seen this until today, the news came 2 months ago.
Adif will electrify the metric-gauge line between Sotiello and Aboño, in Asturias.
This is for freight, and will fill in the only diesel gap remaining between Ribadesella and Cudillero.
This is practical, as it will allow freight trains to skip both Oviedo and Gijon (but not Avilés - you can't have everything).

*New chord (for freight)*

A new Santander-avoiding chord will be built at Cazoña, thus linking the Bilbao-Santander and Santander-Oviedo metric-gauge lines.
This will be very practical for freight trains, which now must reverse at Santander station.


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## Coccodrillo

I rode on C-9 a decade ago, it is more a tourist line rather than a true cercanías, however trees along the line were so dense that it was very difficult to see the landscape. Especially on the upper section of the line it would be nice to better see the vally-plateau north of the Sierra de Guadarrama. However, if Renfe manages to buy trains that sucks as the broad and standard gauge ones, cutting trees would be useless.


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## 437.001

A video.

*Fregenal de la Sierra station*, on the Huelva to Zafra line.
Fregenal is in the Badajoz province, closer to Zafra than to Huelva.
By the way, the line is about to be upgraded on its lower part, between Calañas and Huelva.

A freight train pulled by two class 334 locos enters Fregenal station and heads towards Huelva, while a class 598 DMU on a Huelva-Madrid MD service awaits its turn to continue towards Zafra, Merida, Caceres, Navalmoral, Talavera, and Madrid Chamartin.

Note the old signalling.


----------



## 437.001

Another video.

*Niebla-Puerta del Buey station*, on the Seville to Huelva line.
Niebla is in the Huelva province, more or less halfway from both Seville and Huelva.
This is one of the most beautiful locations for a train station in Spain, next to the river Tinto and the medieval walls of the old town of Niebla.
The old narrow-gauge Rio Tinto railway used to run across the river, and diverged from the parallel Seville to Huelva line right here (well, a few hundreds of metres south, in fact).
As for the "Puerta del Buey" (Spanish for "ox's gate"), you can see it, it's the gate on the medieval walls, just right of the bigger tower.

A class 449 EMU calls at Niebla-Puerta del Buey, on a Seville-Santa Justa to Huelva MD service.
No passengers boarded or alighted.


----------



## 437.001

Another video.

*Artomaña station*, on the Miranda de Ebro to Bilbao line.
Artomaña is a small village in the Alava province, a bit closer to Bilbao than to Miranda de Ebro.
Artomaña station has had no passenger service for decades now, and it is used only as a crossing point.
It is the first station after Orduña as you travel southbound towards Miranda de Ebro.

The section between Miranda de Ebro and Orduña sees only freight and Alvia services.
Here's a bit of variety of freight trains (pulled by class 251, 269, 253, 334, 335 locos), plus some Alvia's served with class 120 trains.


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## Coccodrillo

I suppose that the electrification of Sevilla-Huelva has been done recently, so why is it in 3 kV rather than 25 kV?


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> I suppose that the electrification of Sevilla-Huelva has been done recently, so why is it in 3 kV rather than 25 kV?


The Sevilla to Huelva line was electrified in 1978.


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## Stuu

437.001 said:


> Another video.
> 
> *Artomaña station*, on the Miranda de Ebro to Bilbao line.
> Artomaña is a small village in the Alava province, a bit closer to Bilbao than to Miranda de Ebro.
> Artomaña station has had no passenger service for decades now, and it is used only as a crossing point.
> It is the first station after Orduña as you travel southbound towards Miranda de Ebro.
> 
> The section between Miranda de Ebro and Orduña sees only freight and Alvia services.
> Here's a bit of variety of freight trains (pulled by class 251, 269, 253, 334, 335 locos), plus some Alvia's served with class 120 trains.


Why are the container trains heading to Bilbao all pulled by diesels?


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> Why are the container trains heading to Bilbao all pulled by diesels?


Good question.
I don't know about Britain, but here most private freight trains are hauled by diesel locos.


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## Coccodrillo

In the UK only a few mainlines are electrified with 25 kV, all north of London (except HS1), and most of the network south of London is electrified with third rail, and there are basically no locomotives able to use third rail, only EMUs (there are a few old bi-mode Class 73 and more modern, 25 kV + third rail, Class 92). So most freight trains are diesel hauled.

In Ireland basically there are no freight trains (there are, but very few, much much less than in Spain), also because the network there is isolated (not only it is broad gauge, there are also no train ferries).


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## Eloi von Grauwolf

Stuu said:


> Why are the container trains heading to Bilbao all pulled by diesels?


Because the private freight operators don't bother buying any new electric locomotives (or any new locomotives at all), Comsa/Captrain being an exception*. They're usually the railway division of major construction companies, and try to spend as little as possible and rent it's locomotives to either Renfe or another ROSCO. Comsa/Captrain does not fit this description anymore (it did before it was bought by the SNCF and was rebranded Captrain), neither do Medway (railway division of the MSC shipping company) and Transfesa (whose major shareholders are the German DB -70%- and Renfe -20% lol-).

With the exception of a couple of Traxx of the 253 class and 3 "japs" of the early 269 class (269.029, 269.045 and 269.050 iirc) Comsa has been using for years, another couple of 253 being used by Transfesa, all of the former still being propierty of Renfe and rented to their operators, plus the 3 253 Comsa bought piggybacking on Renfe's 100-locomotive order, the privates operated no electric locomotives until this year (maybe late 2020)**.

They've now begun to do so, once Renfe has retired all (and I guess and hope refurbished some) of its 269 class. 

*Comsa/Captrain owns the first 3 of the 335 (Euro4000) class (335.001 to .003) and the last two of them in partnership with the Portugese Takargo under the brand IberCargo Rail (335.037 and .038). It also owns tje last 3 253 (253.101 to .103 iirc). And they're buying and testing some of the new EuroDual.

**Comsa/Captrain operated and still does operate the dual electric/diesel Bitrac built by CAF. They have, however, a rather strange legal status, since they were not delivered in time to its original customer Fesur which, in turn, went banktrupt and did not even start to operate, let alone recieve the locomotives. Having already built the 9 locomotives, CAF (iirc) rented (some) of them to Comsa, who were familiar with them because they had done the homologation testing.

I think that sums it all. Lack of readily available off-the-shelf locomotives, and lack of will to actually buy locomotives instead of renting them.

As a comparison, the high speed passenger private companies come with their own trains. Ouigo has brought some of their (SNCF's) TGVs, and ILSA is spending 800 million € on their future trains. 

But the CNMC has vowed for Renfe put up some of its fleet for rental.


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## 437.001

🔼 🔼 🔼
On another note, and as you're some more "into it" than I am...
What about the metric-gauge freight trains? 

I see no loco has been repainted with the Renfe colours or (as far as I'm aware) received its new Renfe number, still maintaining the old Feve numbers.
Do you know what are the Renfe plans for metric-gauge freight?
Will they also go private, or will they simply let metric freight stop?


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## Eloi von Grauwolf

437.001 said:


> On another note, and as you're some more "into it" than I am...
> What about the metric-gauge freight trains?
> 
> I see no loco has been repainted with the Renfe colours or (as far as I'm aware) received its new Renfe number, still maintaining the old Feve numbers.
> Do you know what are the Renfe plans for metric-gauge freight?
> *Will they also go private*, or will they simply let metric freight stop?


Lol they've already been sold to the private narrow gauge division of Continental Rail.

Most of Feve's freight traffic decay is caused by the industrial decline rather than the railway operation. The León-Bilbao narrow gauge line, for examole, was built to move León's coal to Bilbao's steel mills. The mines have been closed, and I'm 95% sure the steel mills too. Nowadays this line carries only 1 regional train per direction and day and no freight iirc (there are some suburban services on both ends of the line, I'm referring to trains that run the whole line's length).

As for the paint schemes and numbering, yes and no. Yes, they've kept their old liveries. No, they aren't still numbered following the Feve system. They have new class numbers, even though if they haven't been painted. For example, the old, hybrid 1900-Class (not to be confused with Renfe's own old 1900-Class, renamed 319) has been renamed the 619-Class (starting with 6 as do all [the two of the] hybrid locomotives, the x19 for consistency's sake). Same for EMUs, DMUs and HMUs, starting with 4xx, 5xx and 7xx respectively.


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## 437.001

Cab ride.
*From Cercedilla to Segovia.*
Regional train, done with a class 446 EMU.
Calling at Tablada, San Rafael, El Espinar, Los Ángeles de San Rafael, Otero de Herreros, Navas de Riofrío-La Losa, and Segovia, its terminus.
Note how much of the line has old Norte-type electrification, one of the very last places in Spain where you can see it. The line was electrified in 1941 at 1.5kV, but if I remember correctly, the works were started shortly before the war, before the creation of Renfe.


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## OriK

^^ probably not the best choice to cover that line with a class 446 EMU. Probably a train-tram or a railcar would improve the service a lot.

It makes me sad that low density services are covered with few relatively huge trains "because there's no demand for more", but as there are only a couple of services per day (literally ATM between Cercedilla and Segovia), people just take the car because the trains won't ever fit their schedule, and if they magically do, they won't ever bother to check the schedule.

Most of those stops serve really small populations, but Segovia and Cercedilla (as you can get there in Cercanías) might be big enough for giving an hourly service in a 1-car train.
Also if they had made the Sevilla HS station just 2km ahead, they could have made a nice stop there allowing for a quick train service from the High Speed station into the city centre... and if Train-trams were to serve the line, they could use that as a starting point for the tram in Segovia (as they are nowadays trying to find out how to make viable a tram between the centre and the station.


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## 437.001

Two videos.

First, from *Madrid-Nuevos Ministerios to Madrid-Príncipe Pío via Pitis and Las Rozas*.
Calling at Madrid-Chamartín (visibly in works, which will continue in the years to come), Ramón y Cajal (station in horribly bad state), Mirasierra-Paco de Lucía (station opened not long ago), Pitis, Las Rozas, Majadahonda, El Barrial, Pozuelo, Aravaca, and Madrid-Príncipe Pío.








And the second, *from Madrid-Príncipe Pío to Madrid-Atocha via Delicias*.
Calling at Pirámides, Delicias, Méndez Álvaro (upper level), and Madrid-Atocha.


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## 437.001

And the round trip in two more videos.

*From Madrid-Atocha to Madrid-Príncipe Pío via Delicias*.
Calling at Méndez Álvaro (upper level), Delicias, Pirámides, and Madrid-Príncipe Pío.






*From Madrid-Príncipe Pío to Madrid-Nuevos Ministerios via Las Rozas and Pitis*.
Calling at Aravaca, Pozuelo, El Barrial, Majadahonda, Las Rozas, Pitis, Mirasierra-Paco de Lucía, Ramón y Cajal, Madrid-Chamartín, and Madrid-Nuevos Ministerios.


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## 437.001

A video.

*La Plana-Picamoixons station.*
This is a junction station between the Madrid to Barcelona main classic line, and the branch line that heads to Reus (so there are trains going to Barcelona or Lleida following two different routes).
It serves the small village of Picamoixons, in the Tarragona province, in Catalonia.
Certain regional trains from Tarragona via Reus, and from Sant Vicenç de Calders via Valls terminate here, but the station is unstaffed.
In the video, you can see class 448 and 470 EMU's, and freight trains pulled by class 251 locomotives.
The station's noted for its short platforms on two different narrow bends, and for its nice viaduct.
Which is basically everything you get. The HSL is not far, though.


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## 437.001

A video.

*Navidiello-Parana station*.
This is in Asturias, on the Leon-Gijon classic line, and this section along the Pajares pass (and this station) will soon be closed once the new HSL will open between La Robla and Pola de Lena.
In it we can see, aside from some bucolic rural images of cattle and farmers, basically all the trains that run here, which are class 470 EMU's doing Regional trains, class 130 Alvias, and freight pulled by class 251, 269, and 602 locomotives. 
Regional passenger trains used to call here many years ago, that's not the case anymore.


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## AlbertJP

According to this news article, there are 8 of them.


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## 437.001

Bipo said:


> Is it possible that the S-256 locos are running on Iberian gauge while the EMU is running on Standard gauge?


Impossible.
There's no way such a train could go anywhere beyond Santa Perpètua-Riera de Caldes.

The explanation, unless the CFL train was running on different iberian-gauge bogies that were to be swapped at Cerbère for the definitive standard-gauge ones (which sounds overcomplicated for a Swiss company like Stadler), is that the train was running on standard gauge.
And if Captrain does have some class 256 for standard gauge, then the explanation seems easy: the train is not going to Cerbère, but to Le Soler.


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## 437.001

AlbertJP said:


> According to this news article, there are 8 of them.


But according to the article, they don't belong in class 256, but in class 6000 as they seem to be immatriculated in France.
Class 256 and class 6000 are not identical either, although mostly they are (design, motors, power, livery, etc), they differ in the voltage, the gauge, and the signalling they're able to run on.

Class 256 are dual voltage 3kV/25kV, and can run in Spain and Portugal only, as they're Iberian-gauge only.

While class 6000 are standard-gauge only, and they're triple voltage 1.5kV/3kV/25kV, and can run in Spain, France, Belgium, Netherlands, and I suspect Luxembourg and Italy too.
Not sure about Britain, but in practice they can't as there's no way they can run on the classic line between Folkestone and the area of Willesden Junction/Old Oak Common, as the classic lines in southern England are all electrified with a third rail and lower voltage.


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## Bipo

In fact the title of the video names the locos as 6002&6004 so they are the Standard gauge ones. All clear now.


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## 437.001

Bipo said:


> In fact the title of the video names the locos as 6002&6004 so they are the Standard gauge ones. All clear now.


At first I thought it was a non-UIC way of Captrain to call their own rolling stock, but... I was wrong.


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## TER200

437.001 said:


> (which sounds overcomplicated for a Swiss company like Stadler)


What does a Swiss company have to do with this train ?



437.001 said:


> Not sure about Britain


They don't fit the loading gauge anyway.
They could be used on HS1 though, if they had the right signalling systems ; but afaik they don't have the TVM430 used both in the tunnel and on HS1.


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## 437.001

TER200 said:


> What does a Swiss company have to do with this train ?


Isn't Stadler Swiss?
Or the EMU for Luxembourg was built by Alstom or CAF?


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## AlbertJP

This EMU is an Alstom Coradia Stream HC, built in Santa Perpètua de Mogoda. As the plant only has a broad gauge connection (despite being less than 1km away from standard gauge tracks), the EMU must have been transported to some place west of Barcelona to be placed on standard gauge track.


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## 437.001

AlbertJP said:


> This EMU is an Alstom Coradia Stream HC, built in Santa Perpètua de Mogoda. As the plant only has a broad gauge connection (despite being less than 1km away from standard gauge tracks), the EMU must have been transported to *some place west of Barcelona* to be placed on standard gauge track.


Can Tunis or Morrot, the two main freight yards in Barcelona that are adapted to both gauges.


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## Stuu

Bipo said:


> Is it possible that the S-256 locos are running on Iberian gauge while the EMU is running on Standard gauge?


The first set of points it comes to will show exactly why this is not possible


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## [email protected]




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## alserrod

Thx for sharing.

Some niceties
They talk about Barcelona-Mataro and Madrid-Aranjuez railways
They were open in 1848 and 1851, some years later than in the video

and... first Spanish railway was in La Habana. It was a Spanish island until 1898. Permission was granted by the Queen Elisabeth II.
Railway in Cuba and Puerto Rico run too much rather in Europe


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## 437.001

*Gibraleón station*

Opened in 1886.
This station is on the Huelva to Zafra line.
It also used to be the start of the line to Ayamonte, on the Portuguese border (but without physical connection to the Portuguese railways across the border, a ferry boat was required), which closed in 1987.
In the video we see a class 598 DMU on a service from Huelva to Jabugo-Galaroza.


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## Neb81

437.001 said:


> *Gibraleón station*
> 
> Opened in 1886.
> This station is on the Huelva to Zafra line.
> It also used to be the start of the line to Ayamonte, on the Portuguese border (but without physical connection to the Portuguese railways across the border, a ferry boat was required), which closed in 1987.
> In the video we see a class 598 DMU on a service from Huelva to Jabugo-Galaroza.


I wish the Ayamonte line could be re-opened, with a new bridge over the river to link to the CF Faro - Sto. Antonio line. It looks like most of the alignment is still accessible for re-use. A MD service Seville-Huelva-Faro, and would go a long way to reinstating decent rail links between the two countries - maybe even seeing Alfa Pendular service extended from Faro to Huelva or Seville if the Faro-Sto. Antonio were electrified at the same time. I believe the Portuguese government actually did raise the issue of reinstating the connection with a bridge, but that Adif didn't regard it as a priority 😢


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## 437.001

*Colmenar Viejo station*

This station is located in the Madrid region, some 30km north of the centre of the capital, on the Madrid to Burgos via Aranda de Duero line.
The video was uploaded in 2015.






A freight train, leaving Colmenar Viejo for Manzanares-Soto del Real, the next station as you travel north.
Beyond that, there are no trains, and the line is cut between Robregordo-Somosierra and Santo Tomé del Puerto, as the Somosierra tunnel collapsed.
There is freight between Aranda de Duero and Burgos, and a plan, for now foggy, of reopening the line to passengers and freight, in part because Aranda de Duero is one of the largest towns in Spain without passenger rail, and also because there is a plan to extend Cercanías Madrid line C4 beyond Colmenar Viejo towards Soto del Real (locals demand one more station, to Miraflores de la Sierra).


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## 437.001

*Heritage railway*

Every now and then, there's the possibility of watching some trains of yesteryear still running.






Here we can see a train composed of two class 321 locos, hauling/pushing four carriages class 5000.
All on three not very well used lines in the Toledo province.
Those are:
1) the Castillejo-Añover to Toledo line, of which only the stretch between Castillejo-Añover and Algodor is open, the remainder between Algodor and Toledo was closed as the HSL swallowed a significant part of the line.
2) the stretch between Algodor and Villaseca-Mocejón of the Madrid to Ciudad Real and Badajoz classic line, which is closed between Parla and Villaseca-Mocejón, and between Algodor and Ciudad Real, as much of its alignment was swallowed by the HSL, too.
3) the line between Villaseca-Mocejón and Villaluenga-Yuncler, which is freight-only since forever.

In a logical world, all three lines should be electrified, double-tracked, and should see a rather intense commuter rail service.


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## 437.001

*Rolling stock*

The class 490 trains (Alaris), are being renovated (at last!).
They will be sent to regional services.


----------



## bruno amsterdamski

What is current status of Camp de Tarragona*-*Castellón de la Plana section? Which gauge? Max speed? Any plans/construction works regarding gauge/speed?


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## 592

bruno amsterdamski said:


> What is current status of Camp de Tarragona*-*Castellón de la Plana section? Which gauge? Max speed? Any plans/construction works regarding gauge/speed?


Iberian gauge, 200 kph because it has freight trains on it, and no plans regarding maximum speed but it'll be changed to standard gauge.


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## clickgr

bruno amsterdamski said:


> What is current status of Camp de Tarragona*-*Castellón de la Plana section? Which gauge? Max speed? Any plans/construction works regarding gauge/speed?


It is still all Iberian gauge and double track although it is modernized and has some kind of high-speed standards for speeds up to 220km/h in parts. It is used by the Euromed service (not AVE). Since 2020 a small part of it between Camp de Tarragona and l'Hospitalet de l'Infant is completely new built in a new route to high-speed standards. The rest of the line follows the old conventional rail route that does not permit higher speeds. I do not know if there are any pans for the near future to transform it to standard gauge, or to build alternative routes that permit higher speeds.


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## Stuu

Coccodrillo said:


> I didn't know of the Rio Tinto railway. 1067 mm or 3 ft 6 in is very rare in Europe (outisde the British Isles). It was used in some lines in Norway, and...I don't know where else, in Europe (besides test tracks of train builders). Even malta used 1000 mm, and not 1067 mm, for its railway. But 914 mm (or 3 ft) was used in the Balearic islands and still is, on the Soller line. Elsewhere, the "standard narrow gauges" of 750, 760 and 1000 mm were mainly used, besides a variety of unusual gauges like 800 (4 Swiss lines, still in service), 850, 891, 950 (Italy, including heavily used suburban railways), 1100, 1200.
> 
> es.wiki doesn't tell about the choice of 1067 mm: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrocarril_de_Riotinto
> 
> And it is even incoherent in this sentence: "El ferrocarril de Riotinto, que empleaba un ancho métrico, ...".


1067mm was used a lot around the British Empire, but hardly at all in the UK, although there were some urban trams which used it. The Rio Tinto mines were bought by British investors so it would have been their influence that led to the choice of railway gauge - Britain was producing a lot of the stock for that gauge in Africa and Australia at the time so it would have been readily available

It is interesting that the current Rio Tinto train is one of the very few tourist/restored railways in Spain, when compared with the numbers elsewhere in Europe, especially Germany and the UK


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## 437.001

Stuu said:


> 1067mm was used a lot around the British Empire, but hardly at all in the UK, although there were some urban trams which used it. The Rio Tinto mines were bought by British investors so it would have been their influence that led to the choice of railway gauge - Britain was producing a lot of the stock for that gauge in Africa and Australia at the time so it would have been readily available


Yes, in Riotinto (the town, not the Río Tinto - river Tinto, meaning "Tanned river"-) there is even a Victorian quarter (there's another one in Huelva, not far from the railway station, by the way, both are related to mining railway lines).

In Spain are/were the following gauges:

-Iberian (1,668mm)
-standard (1,435mm)
-metric (1,000mm)
-Madrid metro (1,445mm)
-600mm (currently on the touristic train La Pobla de Lillet-Castellar de N'Hug)
-914mm (currently on Palma-Soller and Soller tram only, the rest of the Mallorca railways were regauged to 1,000mm by Feve in the late 1980's/1990's)
-1,067mm (Riotinto railway, in the past also other lines around Huelva, and I think Cartagena-Los Nietos used to have it, too -another line which started as a mining railway).

No longer existing:
-1,219mm (Tharsis railway, also in Huelva, sadly dismantled some years ago)

Not sure about its existence (but I'm not saying they didn't exist, I just don't know):
-650mm
-750mm



Stuu said:


> It is interesting that the current Rio Tinto train is one of the very few tourist/restored railways in Spain, when compared with the numbers elsewhere in Europe, especially Germany and the UK


Historically Peninsular Spain is not very rail oriented.
Only recently the AVE has started to break the all-for-the-road trend.
When Spain lost Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Philippines back in 1898, there were railways there, and in the particular case of Cuba there was a much higher density of railway lines than in Peninsular Spain.
Why was that? Sugar cane, mostly, but the reason not to develop railways in Peninsular Spain just as much as in Cuba remains a mystery.
Also the reason why Cuba had its lines mostly in standard gauge while Peninsular Spain stuck to Iberian gauge (which is spread the most in India, not Europe), another mystery, and a paradox, as on paper, Peninsular Spain had more to gain from standard gauge than an island such as Cuba (which by then was another Spanish province, just like Huelva and the Canary Islands, and sent its MP's to Madrid and so on).

Maybe this, and the subsequent very difficult first half of the 20th century is what kept Spain a bit "apart from the rest of the world", which is quite odd when you know the history of the country. Then it maybe got reflected on its railway system.

All of this probably explains the lack of tourist/heritage railways in Spain.


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> Maybe this, and the subsequent very difficult first half of the 20th century is what kept Spain a bit "apart from the rest of the world", which is quite odd when you know the history of the country. Then it maybe got reflected on its railway system.
> 
> All of this probably explains the lack of tourist/heritage railways in Spain.


Yes that makes sense, the railways were never as important so didn't become part of the culture to the same extent as elsewhere.

Wasn't there a plan to turn reopen the line near Ponferrada for tourist trains?


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> Wasn't there a plan to turn reopen the line near Ponferrada for tourist trains?


Ponferrada-Villablino?
More or less. I'm not sure about the extent of it though.
I think the part they wanted to reopen was closer to Villablino than to Ponferrada.


----------



## Khaul

Stuu said:


> Yes that makes sense, the railways were never as important so didn't become part of the culture to the same extent as elsewhere.
> 
> Wasn't there a plan to turn reopen the line near Ponferrada for tourist trains?


The railways were crucial for both freight and passengers, as everywhere else in Europe, up until the 1960s. However, Renfe offered a very basic service and run loses. The government was not very interested in investing in the trains. The money went to roads and motorisation was even supported by state owned enterprises like SEAT and ENASA. Trains were running at 60km/h averages while in France they were doing 120km/h. The blame was always put in the geography. ‘Spain in the second most mountainous country in Europe, after Switzerland’, we learnt at school. ‘That’s why our railways are so slow’. 

The situation became even worse in the 80s when almost any sizeable city became linked by a brand new motorway network. The AVE fever only started in the 90s when people saw the Real Madrid and Isabel Pantoja dodging journalists at Atocha rather than Barajas. Because Renfe’s service was terrible, AVE seemed even more impressive and Renfe still gets away with appalling service.


----------



## gincan

Stuu said:


> It is interesting that the current Rio Tinto train is one of the very few tourist/restored railways in Spain, when compared with the numbers elsewhere in Europe, especially Germany and the UK


There are several railway associations all over Spain that have a few steam engines and a few vagons stored away in a shed somewhere, they usually do the odd excursion ones in a blue moon for their members. Heritage trains are really expensive to run and there are few people in Spain intrested in funding them, so there are trains but no money to run them.

Restated from abandonment I can only think of the Alicante-Denia railway that was run as a tourist train for decades before the regional government decided it was a good idea to run commuter trains on the line. The few heritage trains that have existed in Spain other than the one out of Madrid have all been run as tourist attractions completely dependent on foreign tourists, one exception would be the heritage train that runs out of Lleida, but that one is completely dependent on spanish tourist so even worse. Mallorca-Soller would not exist if it wasn't for the millions of foreigners visiting the island every year.

Barcelona used to have a heritage train run as a provider of day trips into Barcelona for tourists staying in the hotels north of Barcelona, very little intrest from locals and low cost tourists prefered the cheaper coaches, it was closed down pretty quickly. There also used to be a heritage train on the narrow gauge line out of Barcelona but not enough demand has put the train back in the museum.

A huge misstake was the scrapping of the narrow gauge trains in Valencia in favour of a metro service, up until the very end they had rolling stock dating back to 1800s, it would have been a world heritage railway today if it had been preserved.


----------



## Stuu

Khaul said:


> The railways were crucial for both freight and passengers, as everywhere else in Europe, up until the 1960s. However, Renfe offered a very basic service and run loses. The government was not very interested in investing in the trains. The money went to roads and motorisation was even supported by state owned enterprises like SEAT and ENASA. Trains were running at 60km/h averages while in France they were doing 120km/h. The blame was always put in the geography. ‘Spain in the second most mountainous country in Europe, after Switzerland’, we learnt at school. ‘That’s why our railways are so slow’.


That's not really true though, Spain was much poorer and much more agricultural than it's neighbouring countries, except for in certain regions. The railway network never expanded to the extent it did elsewhere in Europe - there were many towns which never had a railway, which is only true of the very smallest of places in France or the UK. They were less a part of the landscape and the cultural history. On top of that there is the more recent history with the Civil War and the Franco regime, and a certain cultural reluctance to talk about the past. All of those factors mean the railways, and the recent past, are less of a draw in Spain than elsewhere. 

That's my theory anyway


----------



## Khaul

Stuu said:


> That's not really true though, Spain was much poorer and much more agricultural than it's neighbouring countries, except for in certain regions. The railway network never expanded to the extent it did elsewhere in Europe - there were many towns which never had a railway, which is only true of the very smallest of places in France or the UK. They were less a part of the landscape and the cultural history. On top of that there is the more recent history with the Civil War and the Franco regime, and a certain cultural reluctance to talk about the past. All of those factors mean the railways, and the recent past, are less of a draw in Spain than elsewhere.
> 
> That's my theory anyway


Alright, I see what you mean and I agree with you to some extent. It is also true that the network shrank quite a lot. The Spanish equivalent to the Beeching axe resulted on the closure of thousand of km of mainline broad gauge lines. Some others (Madrid-Galicia via Zamora, Madrid-Burgos via Aranda) were kept with minimal traffic. Narrow gauge lines were closed much earlier than that (i.e. Secundarios de Castilla). My point is that, although important, the service offered by the railways in Spain was of abysmal quality compared to more developed countries and that has a strong influence in people's expectations and the way Renfe is run.

For a counterexample, look at Portugal. That's a country that was always poorer, more rural and where the railways were even worse than in Spain. Nowadays, however, CP offers much better service than Renfe. See, for instance, the Linha do Minho, from Porto to Viana do Castelo and Valenca do Minho. Then compare it with the Ourense-Vigo railway on the other side of the river, not to mention the Tui branch.


----------



## alserrod

[/QUOTE]


Stuu said:


> That's not really true though, Spain was much poorer and much more agricultural than it's neighbouring countries, except for in certain regions. The railway network never expanded to the extent it did elsewhere in Europe - there were many towns which never had a railway, which is only true of the very smallest of places in France or the UK. They were less a part of the landscape and the cultural history. On top of that there is the more recent history with the Civil War and the Franco regime, and a certain cultural reluctance to talk about the past. All of those factors mean the railways, and the recent past, are less of a draw in Spain than elsewhere.
> 
> That's my theory anyway



I agree

In addition, Spain hadn't a radial network (which it is not good) but a "root network" (which it is worst enough). This is, starting from Madrid, how many trains had to go via Medina del Campo, via Zaragoza or via Alcazar de San Juan????

Departing from Madrid almost all trains were in three concrete directions only.

Just to save money, medium cities and towns not far from a main line had a branch. That branch used to be in a different gauge (it could be in Iberian tough). 
How many "branches" do they exist today (not commuters...). I think... none of them.

One century ago Spain could have a medium network but no investments did a big closure in 1985. Since then, only commuters plus high speed lines have been opened.


On the other hand, and as engineer, I am always surprised about the Talgo train in the 1950ish. I contribuited too much for develpment in a rocky country


----------



## 437.001

*News*

The ministry says it will study a chord between the stations of Alcover and Valls, in the province of Tarragona.
The theoretical advantages of this would be for freight to avoid the coastal area between Tarragona and Sant Vicenç de Calders, and potentially a new passenger service Tarragona-Reus-Valls, avoiding La Plana-Picamoixons station, which has very little room for reversals for freight (and passengers).
Source: *Mitma tramita la licitación del Estudio informativo de un nuevo ramal ferroviario en la zona de Picamoixons | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana*

This is just a "the ministry says" thing. Its construction is still hypothetical in the short term.


----------



## 437.001

*News

Rolling stock*

New class 257 locos of FGC.
For freight, mainly between Suria and the Barcelona port, I guess also between Martorell-Seat and the Barcelona port.
Built by Stadler in Albuixech (Valencia), they are bi-mode (diesel + electric). And metric gauge.
On the image below, one of the new locos, on the branch between Manresa and Suria.









Source: *Terminus CET en Twitter: "La primera de les noves locomotores duals de la sèrie 257 d'@FGC, construïdes per #Stadler Albuixec, està realitzant, en proves, els primers trens de mercaderies entre Súria i Manresa. La resta de la sèrie, formada per 4 unitats més, anirà arribant durant els propers mesos. https://t.co/5ChqoiLoIr" / Twitter*


----------



## gincan

So a new project to upgrade Barcelona Sants train station has been announced today, turns out having an infrastructure minister from the outskirts of Barcelona makes things happen. This is the second time politicians have promised to upgrade Barcelona Sants, the first one was back in 2007 right before the recession hit in 2008. And now we are about to hit another recession so the clock is already ticking on this project also being cut due to budget reasons.

Old project from 2007






New project from 2022


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## 437.001

A cab ride *from Valencia-Nord to Castellon*.
You can tell the evolution of the works to install the third rail on the northbound track (the southbound track has had it for a few years now, and is in service for the AVE Madrid-Castellon and vv, but having just one track makes the exploitation difficult).
Between Castellon and Vilaseca (including the branch line from L'Aldea to Tortosa), the gauge will be changed completely from Iberian to standard, and preliminary works for that have started.
Between Vilaseca and Castellbisbal (suburban Barcelona), there are also works to install a third rail on the classic line.





Video by *camino de hierro*


----------



## 437.001

*News

Rolling stock*

A new contract for the construction of 28 EMU's, has been awarded to CAF by €290 million.

These trains will run on regional services (Media Distancia), where they are much needed as the regional rolling stock is really the oldest, with some trains nearing 50 years old.
There's an option for an extra 42 trains if Renfe chose to.
The trains will have a top speed of 200km/h and will be... not exactly bi-mode, but they will be able to run on unelectrified lines (or under wires in case of blackout) thanks to them having batteries.
Which is excellent news.

Source (official press releases): 
1) Renfe website: *Renfe adjudica a CAF el suministro de 28 trenes eléctricos MD* 
2) CAF website: *RENFE ADJUDICA A CAF EL SUMINISTRO DE 28 TRENES ELÉCTRICOS EQUIPADOS CON BATERÍAS*


----------



## 437.001

*Rolling stock*

New rolling stock recently purchased (or about to be purchased) by Renfe. 
Source: *@ililo* here on SSC.


*Renfe section**Train building company* *Number of trains*_*Extra optional trains*__*Gauge*__*Country of homologation*__*Voltage*__*Nº of cars*_
_*Length*_*Top speed*_*Capacity*_*Notes*Renfe Mercancías (freight)Stadler12 locosnoIberianSpain3kV + 25kVno-120 km/h-Renfe Mercancías (freight)not awarded yet12 locos+6StandardSpain/France1.5kV + 3kV + 25kVno-120 km/h-Renfe AVE (high-speed)Talgo10noStandardSpain/France1.5kV + 3kV + 25kV12200m330 km/h507Avril class 106FRenfe AVE (high-speed)Talgo5noStandardSpain3kV + 25kV12200m330 km/h581Avril class 106 AVLORenfe AVE (high-speed)Talgo10noStandard + IberianSpain3kV + 25kV12200m330 km/h507Avril class 106RDRenfe AVE (high-speed)Talgo5noStandard + IberianSpain3kV + 25kV12200m330 km/h581Avril class 106RD AVLORenfe AVE (high-speed)Talgo13+6Standard + IberianSpain3kV + 25kV12200m330 km/h405Class 107Renfe Cercanías (commuter rail)Alstom152noIberianSpain3kV + batteries6100m140 km/h927extendable to 120mRenfe Cercanías (commuter rail)Stadler24+96IberianSpain3kV + batteries4200m140 km/h920extendable to 160mRenfe Cercanías (commuter rail)Stadler35+24IberianSpain3kV + batteries8200m140 km/h1850extendable to 240mRenfe Media Distancia (regional rail)CAF28+24Standard + IberianSpain/France1.5kV + 3kV + 25kV + batteries375m200 km/h?-Renfe Media Distancia (regional rail)CAF-+18Standard + IberianSpain/France1.5kV + 3kV + 25kV + batteries4100m200 km/h?-Renfe Media Distancia (regional rail)Alstom6+4IberianSpain3kV380m160
km/h173upgrade class 490Renfe Cercanías RAM (ex-Feve)CAF26+6MetricSpain1.5kV + batteries2/335m/45m100
km/h?-Renfe Cercanías RAM (ex-Feve)CAF5+1MetricSpain1.5kV + batteries + diesel240m100
km/h
?-Renfe Cercanías RAM (ex-Feve)CAF6noMetricSpain1.5kV+ batteries235m100
km/h
?-


----------



## Coccodrillo

The fourth to last row I suppose is a refurbishment of the existing Class 490 Pendolinos, I suppose, not an order for new trains. But they are for long distance services, rather than regional trains.

And do I really read that there is a plan to order cross-border regional trains for use to France? On what lines?

I also see that sadly there is nothing new for Spain-Portugal services.


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> The fourth to last row I suppose is a refurbishment of the existing Class 490 Pendolinos, I suppose, not an order for new trains. But they are for long distance services, rather than regional trains.


You don't have to suppose it, I indicated it. 
Sadly, class 490 aren't much in a state to do long distance services anymore, they will be limited to regional services, and its top speed has been/is being (they're being refurbushed as we speak) downgraded from 220km/h to 160km/h.



Coccodrillo said:


> And do I really read that there is a plan to order cross-border regional trains for use to France? On what lines?


Well, it's easy to imagine, isn't it?  The choice is really very limited...

1) Irun-Hendaye, maybe extended to Bayonne.
2) Portbou-Cerbère, maybe extended to Perpignan.
3) and (if it reopens, and only in that case) Canfranc-Les Forges d'Abel-Oloron-Pau, maybe extended to Lourdes and Tarbes.
4) Latour-de-Carol-L'Hospitalet-Foix could be an option too, but there's no gauge changer there.

My main pick is Portbou-Perpignan, I suspect.
As much as there is a demand for a better HSR service between Perpignan and Barcelona, there is also a need for a better service of proximity (trips such as Figueres-Collioure, Llança-Perpignan, Colera-Elne, Girona-Banyuls, Barcelona-Argelès, etc).
They could take advantage of a reinstated gauge changer at Portbou.

The secondary option could be Irun-Bayonne, but as much as Sncf labels it now as a TER, from a Spanish point of view that's Cercanías (RER, then).
So even if a service such as Miranda-Vitoria-Alsasua-Zumarraga-Tolosa-San Sebastian-Hendaye-St Jean-de-Luz-Biarritz-Bayonne would be extremely welcome, it wouldn't be just as effective as if it were a Cercanías Brinkola-Zumarraga-Tolosa-San Sebastian-Hendaye-St Jean-de-Luz-Biarritz-Bayonne calling at all stations and even reopening (if possible) certain of the long-closed ones (Bidart, for instance).
So I'm not sure that would be the right rolling stock, even if it could do it. They should reinstate the Irun gauge changer though, although there's also the dual-gauge works between San Sebastian and Irun (advancing at a snail's pace, but the works are there).

Lastly, the Canfranc option can become very real if the line reopens between Canfranc and Bedous, and is fully electrified between Huesca and Pau. That would really be the right rolling stock, as there's this plan to regauge Huesca-Canfranc if Canfranc-Bedous reopens.
A regional service Zaragoza-Tarbes calling at Tardienta, Huesca, Ayerbe, Sabiñanigo, Jaca, Canfranc, Bedous, Oloron, Pau, and Lourdes could really do the trick (Zaragoza and Lourdes are important Catholic sites, so linking them via one direct train could add extra unexpected passengers, not to talk about the possibilities of tourism on both sides of the central Pyrenees).

As for Latour-de-Carol to Foix... there's no plan for an immediate regauging of Barcelona-Puigcerda, nor a plan for a gauge changer at Puigcerda.
As far as we know, of course.
BUT... that would really improve the access from Barcelona, Vic, Ripoll, and Puigcerda (and hence also Bourg-Madame, which is conurbated with Puigcerda) to Andorra (or Pas de la Casa and Soldeu at least).
I'd see that more as a "Pontarlier/Delle" thing all year round, for commuters from both Spain and France living in the Cerdagne (Spain + France), the Ripollès (Spain) and the Ariège valley (France), and also in high season for the tourists (Barcelona to Andorra-la-Vella point to point will always be faster by bus or car, but Soldeu or Pas de la Casa is another story), and then also, as an all-year-round option for Barcelona to Foix, which by train and by bus is horrible.



Coccodrillo said:


> I also see that sadly there is nothing new for Spain-Portugal services.


Renfe has never really been interested in anything other than Madrid-Lisbon.
Or at least, that's the general impression we all have in Spain.
So I guess that these would be like the rest of services CP already runs (Entroncamento-Badajoz, Coimbra-Vilar Formoso, Porto-Vigo are already operated by CP), and perhaps these new services would/could be for CP to take advantage of.


----------



## AlbertJP

437.001 said:


> So I'm not sure that would be the right rolling stock, even if it could do it. They should reinstate the Irun gauge changer though, although there's also the dual-gauge works between San Sebastian and Irun (advancing at a snail's pace, but the works are there).


Standard gauge trains will not be able to call at the existing platforms at the small stations between San Sebastián and Irun, because you need four-rail platform tracks to make sure both types of stock match with the platform edge. The third rail is being laid on the platform side, which is visible for instance if you look at the sleepers in my photo here (just outside Lezo station, which has side platforms,) so the platforms will remain for broad gauge trains only.

This means you'd rather get a TER-like train between Spain and France only calling at Irun and San Sebastián in Spain, on top of the existing broad-gauge Cercanías calling at all stations.


----------



## Bipo

AlbertJP said:


> Standard gauge trains will not be able to call at the existing platforms at the small stations between San Sebastián and Irun, because you need four-rail platform tracks to make sure both types of stock match with the platform edge. The third rail is being laid on the platform side, which is visible for instance if you look at the sleepers in my photo here (just outside Lezo station, which has side platforms,) so the platforms will remain for broad gauge trains only.


That's not exactly true... You can get on a standard gauge train using those platforms even if the third rail is placed closer to the platform. It's a matter of design choice, let me explain:

If you prefer a smaller gap between the train and the platform using Iberian gauge, you place the rail like so. On the other hand, if you want the Standard gauge trains to be closer to the platform, you place the third rail far away.

In both cases any train can call there and be boarded, it's just a decision on which train will let a larger gap, but in any case the difference is less than 12 cm, IMHO not a drama (curved platforms have an even larger gap when boarding).


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## AlbertJP

You're right. I was under the impression that some recent stations had four-rail tracks on platforms for both gauges, but it turns out that I was mistaken.

In any case I don't think standard gauge stops are foreseen along the line, the broad gauge is the one with the narrower gap, and there have been suggestions before to extend the TER and leave the Cercanías in place.


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## 437.001

LtBk said:


> Any plans for upgrading the Bilbao-Santander line?


If you mean the current metric-gauge line, they're electrifying it between Aranguren and Karrantza, and they're planning to double-track it on the bits between Santander and Orejo that are still single-track.


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## 437.001

*News

Madrid Chamartin station*

The station is undergoing a significant upgrade (by phases), with the coming upgrade of the current upper-level concourse above the platforms, and the very advanced works of reopening of a long-disused low-level concourse, which had been reopened partly for Cercanías long ago, but remained mostly unused (and which was becoming more and more necessary as the number of passengers is increasing with the opening of new high-speed lines).
The works will also include the increase of the number of platforms for high-speed trains, and a number of diveunders at the north side of the station for a better organisation of the Cercanías (commuter rail) and Media Distancia (regional rail) services.

Sources: 
1) *Adif en Twitter: "🚉 El vestíbulo (18.000 m²) se reordena en tres zonas: Cercanías, zona de embarque para #AltaVelocidad y un gran pasillo longitudinal central, configurado como ‘corazón’ de la estación (18 m de ancho). https://t.co/wqP9v4wXXs" / Twitter*
2) *Adif duplica la capacidad para la alta velocidad y el espacio para viajeros en Chamartín, que además recupera el antiguo vestíbulo de Cercanías - Adif - AV - Adif (adifaltavelocidad.es)* 



Renders of the upper-level concourse (above the platforms).








































Photos of the low-level concourse (underground).


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## 437.001

A rather complete (and almost 100% correct and up to date) map of the RFIG (Red Ferroviaria de Interés General - *RFIG 2022-12 (trenvista.net)*).
That is, the entire Spanish railway network that is ran by Adif.
It does not include the lines ran by Euskotren (Basque Country railways), FGC (Catalan railways), FGV (Valencian railways), or SFM (Majorcan railways), which are ran by their respective regional governments.


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## 437.001

*News*

After some weeks of cuts and disgruntled passengers having to do complicated interchanges, the new Sant Andreu Comtal underground station (which has lost the "Comtal" bit along the way) has opened, including the new tracks on Sagrera station, which has completed its Iberian gauge track yard (that is, eight tracks, four for the Arc de Triomf-Clot-Mataró line, and four more for the Passeig de Gràcia-Clot-Sant Andreu-Granollers line, which is the Portbou main line).
The following video shows a cab ride on an empty train from the Sant Andreu Comtal depot to Estació de França, including a crossover between Sagrera and Clot, and another one between Clot and Estació de França.





Video by *DisyuntorExtrarrapido*


🔼🔼🔼 
With this, only the standard gauge part of Sagrera station (the high-speed part, that is, which will be right on top of the Iberian gauge platforms) is left to be built, and that will also come with cuts, as the part between Mollet and Sants will have to be operated in single track during some of the works (dates to be confirmed).


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## Khaul

^^Nice video, thanks! The platforms at Sant Andreu are curiously numbered 1-0-2-4, there must be some weird Renfe-Adif reasoning for that.


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## Coccodrillo

Sometimes RENFE called 1 and 2 the main through tracks, and proceeded each side using either only odd or only even number. So the order of tracks might be 5-3-1-2-4-6, which makes sense from an operational point of view but it's absurd from a passenger point of view. Not as absurd as the 4-A-B-C-F-E (in that order) I once saw in France, though.

The odd and even side was likely coherent along the line, so that 1 was the southbound track in all stations and 2 the northbound one. Railways that use this system usually match also train numbers. The most common European standard is likely southbound and eastbound trains having an odd number, the other directions an even number.


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## eu01

Visiting Cadiz last year I wanted to come from Sevilla by regional train. What I didn't know was the gap between two local networks / systems (Cercanias) of Sevilla and Cadiz. For me it would have been logical to have some local trains from Sevilla ending in Cadiz and vice versa or at least to be able to change from one local train to another on the common end/interchange station. No way. The furthest station from the direction of Sevilla is Lebrija. On the other side trains from Cadiz end in Jerez Airport, so you could only walk along the track, no way. Of course there are also some MD trains between both cities, but not frequent enough and with seat reservation. What is the logic here? The capacity of local trains could be used better and passengers could decide to travel more often if local trains from different Cercanias were connected, but it seems very difficult all over the Spain. Resulting from this me (and many others) decide to travel by bus instead. "My Cercanias my castle" policy?


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## lucasjv

^ Very odd situation indeed - although at those two end stations the MD service is more frequent then Cercanias - having the Jerez airport as the end stop for both Cercanias services would make a ton more sense.

Unrelated, I wonder how RENFE releases its tickets in advance, if it's done on a per-station basis or a set time for all services. For example it's impossible right now to book any ticket to/from Granada past 31 january, while it's possible for most other destinations. Or are there track works upcoming on that stretch?


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## 437.001

*News

Electrification*

Electrification (25kV) of the line between Monforte de Lemos and Lugo has started.
Its main goal is to eliminate the use of class 730 trains on the Madrid-Lugo Alvia services, which would then become all-electric, releasing trains that would be cascaded elsewhere (Madrid-Badajoz, Madrid-Granada-Almeria, maybe Madrid-Algeciras).
The plan also includes the reelectrification of Monforte de Lemos-Ourense-Guillarei-Redondela-Vigo Guixar, and Guillarei-Tui/Valença.

Images below (click on the links to watch them) taken near Pobra de San Xiao:



Rootblower said:


> View attachment 4361200
> 
> 
> View attachment 4361201
> 
> 
> View attachment 4361202


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## bruno amsterdamski

^^ What do you mean by reelectrification? Changing voltage?
Any plans for electrification Lugo-A Coruna ?


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## eu01

437.001 said:


> Electrification (25kV) of the line between Monforte de Lemos and Lugo has started.


The line pictured there used to be double-track, wasn't it?


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## 592

eu01 said:


> The line pictured there used to be double-track, wasn't it?


I don't think Monforte to Lugo has ever been doubled, even though some of the newer stretches of track (like the La Pobra de San Xiao deviation) may have been built with provision for double track. It's a line with weak traffic, atm only having 1 MD and 1 IC Lugo-Ourense, 1 REx Coruña-Monforte and 1 MD Ourense-Lugo-Coruña. It used to have a bit more traffic but never much. Even though now Ourense-Monforte is closed it must have significant freight traffic.


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## eu01

592 said:


> I don't think Monforte to Lugo has ever been doubled, even though some of the newer stretches of track (like the La Pobra de San Xiao deviation) may have been built with provision for double track.


You are right, I've analyzed the aerial view of the line, just some provisions were probably made.


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## Khaul

592 said:


> I don't think Monforte to Lugo has ever been doubled, even though some of the newer stretches of track (like the La Pobra de San Xiao deviation) may have been built with provision for double track. It's a line with weak traffic, atm only having 1 MD and 1 IC Lugo-Ourense, 1 REx Coruña-Monforte and 1 MD Ourense-Lugo-Coruña. It used to have a bit more traffic but never much. Even though now Ourense-Monforte is closed it must have significant freight traffic.


Why is Ourense Monforte closed?


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## 437.001

bruno amsterdamski said:


> What do you mean by reelectrification? Changing voltage?


Yes, from 3kV to 25kV.



bruno amsterdamski said:


> Any plans for electrification Lugo-A Coruna ?


Not for the whole of it, for now.
But the electrification of Coruña-Betanzos as part of the electrification of Coruña-Ferrol is likely to happen before very long.
Lugo-Betanzos, not so much.


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## 592

437.001 said:


> Yes, from 3kV to 25kV.
> 
> 
> 
> Not for the whole of it, for now.
> But the electrification of Coruña-Betanzos as part of the electrification of Coruña-Ferrol is likely to happen before very long.
> Lugo-Betanzos, not so much.


Yeah, Lugo-Betanzos and Santiago-O Carballiño-Ourense are likely to remain diesel islands on the otherwise electrified Galicia. The classic spurs off the Vigo-Coruña line, and the Ferrol and Lugo lines are getting wires this decade (mainly due to the dubious argument of releasing 730's, whilst what is needed is to have the 106RDs running).


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## 437.001

592 said:


> The classic spurs off the Vigo-Coruña line, and the Ferrol and Lugo lines are getting wires this decade (mainly due to the dubious argument of releasing 730's, whilst what is needed is to have the 106RDs running).


Well, one thing goes with the other, doesn't it?
If you want to release class 730 trains to cascade them other places (Madrid-Badajoz-Lisbon, Madrid-Algeciras, Madrid-Granada-Almeria, Madrid-Cartagena), first you need to have the class 106 and 107 trains in service.
You can release a few 730's though, because some of them are in depot being retrofitted. The more 130 and 730 are available, the less pressure on the services, and this even without the 106's and 107's. But without the 106 and 107, there will be pressure anyway.


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