# Which Next Developed Country Will DOWN GRADE to Deloveping Country



## khoojyh

There is a possibility of this to happen?

Soviet Union (Russia) is developed country before end of Cold War, but this century, many resources classified Russia to be developing country. This considering as down grade in Modern World? 

*The country which is now suffering serious national debt. such as*

Portugal
Italy
Greece 
Spain 

If above country debt is remain or become worse, will they down grade to be developing country? I believe not only PIGS facing big challenge like this, other country might have the same problem....

Interesting? i am not professional economist.... so leave to those forumer might able to answer. 



*Other than national debt that high potential to "stop running" of a country. There are other reasons n long term issue will down grade a country such .*





*CHeck it ouT*


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## khoojyh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_future_gross_government_debt

As per wikipedia, 

Japan in 2016 will have worse national debt than Greece, thats 253.388% of its GDP....


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## Lord_Bertrum

Interesting debate, for example Argentina was the 7th richest nation in the 1930s but it hasn't been able to sustain that position over the decades.

To be really able to date your question you need to define how you are classifying 'developed' countries because yes many developed countries have huge national debts but the catagorisation is usually based on standards of living. Japanese people as individuals are wealthy and it's economy is still able to produce products that it can export.


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## 863552

UK, USA, SPAIN, PORTUGAL, GREECE, ITALY.


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## Rev Stickleback

I don't think have debt problems will cause a country to be downgraded.

Maybe if things got so bad that infrastructure ceased to operate and considerable parts of each country reverted to sustinence farming, you could say they are "developing", but nothing really suggests a collapse on that scale.


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## khoojyh

Solopop said:


> UK, USA, SPAIN, PORTUGAL, GREECE, ITALY.


No matter how poor is USA in future, they will be very difficult to down grade.... USD still an important currency around the world. At least the world will not allow USA to downgrade.


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## -Corey-

Solopop said:


> *UK, USA, SPAIN*, PORTUGAL, GREECE, *ITALY*.


What did u smoke? :crazy:


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## diablo234

A downgrade of the US from developed to developing status isn't going to happen (and if it did it would take the world economy with it). 

Greece and Portugal could be a possibility if the European Union disbands but I would still say that is a highly unlikely outcome.


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## Atomicus

Solopop said:


> UK, USA, SPAIN, PORTUGAL, GREECE, ITALY.


5/10

lol'd. :lol:


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## pesto

An interesting topic, bound to eventually piss off everybody.

This goes back to the underlying criteria for being a developed country: the general use of the most efficient technology and methods, and a social/economic system that allows you to continue to adopt the best methods.

Countries often look like they are developed because they have unusual booms (mineral, agriculture, tourism) and grow quickly. But they then tend to slide back (Argentina, oil countries, Spain) when the boom is over. They have not adquately institutionalized the process of moving on to the next area of economic growth, though hopefully they spent some of their boom earnings gettting that process started (openness to social change, technical education, adequate protection for investment, etc.).

Russia was never even vaguely developed. Southern Europe is somehwere in between. China and India aren't developed but the systems they have started putting in place are getting them there (of course, much more is needed in implementing rule of law, auditing, minimizing bureaucracies and regulations, etc.).


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## isakres

pesto said:


> An interesting topic, bound to eventually piss off everybody.
> 
> This goes back to the underlying criteria for being a developed country: the general use of the most efficient technology and methods, and a social/economic system that allows you to continue to adopt the best methods.
> 
> Countries often look like they are developed because they have unusual booms (mineral, agriculture, tourism) and grow quickly. But they then tend to slide back (Argentina, oil countries, Spain) when the boom is over. They have not adquately institutionalized the process of moving on to the next area of economic growth, though hopefully they spent some of their boom earnings gettting that process started (openness to social change, technical education, adequate protection for investment, etc.).


So according to your criteria, Spain would be a candidate if it doesnt manage to move to the next stage of economic growth?



pesto said:


> Russia was never even vaguely developed. Southern Europe is somehwere in between. China and India aren't developed but the systems they have started putting in place are getting them there (of course, much more is needed in implementing rule of law, auditing, minimizing bureaucracies and regulations, etc.).


May Agree with Russia. They are very close now tho.


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## Suburbanist

The best counterexample of this, in my opinion, is what happened in the immediate aftermath of World War II. Much of Europe was devastated, and for a while Latin American countries had, at least in some of their major cities, life standards better than those at ravaged capitals like Berlin, Wien etc.

However, even with massive bombardment and destruction of the infrastructure, and crisis, the basis for progress were there and countries soon picked up. 

A prolonged real-estate crisis with its spills is not enough to set countries back to "developing stage".


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## castermaild55

khoojyh said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_future_gross_government_debt
> 
> As per wikipedia,
> 
> Japan in 2016 will have worse national debt than Greece, thats 253.388% of its GDP....


the difference is..
Japan has borrowed money from people in Japan.
Japanese Yen and bond were bought even in crisis.
that is why peoples are rich

Greece has borrowed money from the foreign country. 
They do not wait.


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## FAAN

edit


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## Suburbanist

castermaild55 said:


> the difference is..
> Japan has borrowed money from people in Japan.
> Japanese Yen and bond were bought even in crisis.
> that is why peoples are rich
> 
> Greece has borrowed money from the foreign country.
> They do not wait.


This is not as relevant. What counts is the ability (or lack thereof) of government to borrow NOW, if only to renew loans that are expiring and thus due for payment. Japan can find lenders easily, so it's got not problem. Greece can't find lenders at all, so it is in trouble. Simple as that. 

Only a tiny minority of total national debts is in the form of lender-redeemable unlimited bonds that give the lender choice of when to request repayment. Most countries don't even have such bonds.

Moreover, Japan runs a huge trade surplus, whereas Greece had been running deficits for a while.


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## DanielFigFoz

Belgium :lol:


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## poshbakerloo

Developing I thin is the wrong term to use. It suggests places like India which can't really be compared to the UK or US which are both apparently going to be classed as 'developing countries'


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## isakres

Portugal and Greece :2cents:


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## CarltonHill

Greece - debt is 116% of their gdp
Barbados - 102%
Portugal - 93.3%
Hungary - 81.3%

^^ These countries are in the bottom 20 (the 4 countries with higher than 80% debt to gdp ratio) of 47 developed nations....


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## tita01

japan,greece, etc u.s.a??


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## isakres

Ive heard gulf stated have been diversified their economies trying to avoid been so much oil dependant in the future.


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## Skyprince

for such a huge economy and high population, I don't know how Spain become developed ? the first question that comes to mind is "What does Spain produce? " 

I can see how Switzerland with less than 10 mil pop could become rich- their technology and products are everywheere to be found in Asia. But I;ve never seen any product from Spain. 

The same applies to Greece & Portugal but they have far smaller population


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## Jonesy55

Airbus planes are partially made in Spain, and they have plenty of car factories, steel plants, one of the worlds biggest clothing retailers Inditex, one of Europe's biggest banks Santander, Fagor a major European appliance manufacturer etc.

They also have a huge tourism sector and sell lots of agricultural produce to other European countries.


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## isakres

^^ +1


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## 863552

I don't know who said it, but some said Australia mistreats the aborigines? What that is crazy...


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## Pradable

Skyprince said:


> for such a huge economy and high population, I don't know how Spain become developed ? the first question that comes to mind is "What does Spain produce? "


A lot big companies set in LATAM are from Spain, Santander, Zara, Telefonica, BBVA and i could name a ton... but Spanish are the owner of a lot Energy companies here southamerica, specially electricity like Endesa, which it's a company that costs a LOT.


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## gabrielbabb

Skyprince said:


> for such a huge economy and high population, I don't know how Spain become developed ? the first question that comes to mind is "What does Spain produce? "
> 
> I can see how Switzerland with less than 10 mil pop could become rich- their technology and products are everywheere to be found in Asia. But I;ve never seen any product from Spain.
> 
> The same applies to Greece & Portugal but they have far smaller population


Most of the things coming from Spain are stablished in Latin America, for example cellphone companies, clothes, banks, cars factories, wine, sausages. They also produce about 20% of eolic energy in the world


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## isakres

Indeed Spain has a lot of presence in Latinamerica in many ways, from Banks like Santander, BBV, hotel chains like Riu, Iberostar, Energy companies like Gas Natural, Repsol, clothing companies like Inditex and a long etcetera.


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## seattle92

Skyprince said:


> for such a huge economy and high population, I don't know how Spain become developed ? the first question that comes to mind is "What does Spain produce? "
> 
> I can see how Switzerland with less than 10 mil pop could become rich- their technology and products are everywheere to be found in Asia. But I;ve never seen any product from Spain.
> 
> The same applies to Greece & Portugal but they have far smaller population


:lol:


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## Atomicus

Skyprince said:


> for such a huge economy and high population, I don't know how Spain become developed ? the first question that comes to mind is "What does Spain produce? "
> 
> I can see how Switzerland with less than 10 mil pop could become rich- their technology and products are everywheere to be found in Asia. But I;ve never seen any product from Spain.
> 
> The same applies to Greece & Portugal but they have far smaller population


You don't need to be a export company to become developed...

But anyway, Spain produces a lot, and export too. Not like Germany or China obviously, but quite a lot. Actually, our exports increased a 18% in 2011. And Spain is supposedly terrible at competitiveness and all of that...

Besides what people already named (Airbus parts, banking, textile companies) we export stuff like CARS (8th world productor), even if they are not Spanish brands: Seat, Nissan, Mercedes, Citrôen, Renault, Ford...


You may have never heard of them but there are some very strong SPANISH companies that have presence in a lot of countries: 
*
Adolfo Dominguez* (perfums).
*ACS*: one of the largest construction companies in the world.
*FCC:* same than ACS.
*Puleva*: milk and all of that.
*Puleva Biotech*: biotechnology and all of that.
*Nutrexpa*: company which owns food companies like *ColaCao (高乐高** in China), La Piara, Granja Sanfrancisco*...
*Sener Aeronáutica* (which make aeronautic stuff).
*Indra* (all kind of army stuff, communications, etc...)

ETC (I don't know all of them lol).


And my favorites ones. We produce these ones in Spain:

*ENDESA:* And this company has presence in a lot of parts of the world. We export these ones to the USA, LatinAmerica, other parts of Europe, China...










*CAF:* presence in places like Europe, Latin America, USA, China (HongKong, Shezhen)...











*TALGO:* again, presence in places like Europe, Russia, Turkey, Latin America, Arabia Saudi (soon)...










*ROCA:* You'll meet very few people in the UK who doesn't know this brand :laugh:










Deoleo, which owns stuff like *Carbonell* which has persence:








Which produces:









This company is the most important one for me as I would never be able to live abroad without being able to buy Olive Oil from Spain. NOWHERE! :cheers:



*Fagor:*











And I'm sure I'm missing a lot of stuff. Many things not related with brands and all of that.


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## Messi

> for such a huge economy and high population, I don't know how Spain become developed ? the first question that comes to mind is "What does Spain produce? "
> 
> I can see how Switzerland with less than 10 mil pop could become rich- their technology and products are everywheere to be found in Asia. But I;ve never seen any product from Spain.
> 
> The same applies to Greece & Portugal but they have far smaller population



This is more your ignorance and not the facts.

In Turkey I know:

The hiighspeed train sets being used currently are spanish made CAF's.
@Atamicus: It's unfortunately not the Talgo. :/









The Suburban trains in Izmir are also Spanish made:










And Antalya LRT vehicles are also Spanish made:









I forgot the new subway trains of Istanbul. They are also made in Spain.


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## isakres

Easy dudes, I dont think Skyprince was bashing on Spain, I think he just doesnt get as much news of Spain in Malaysia as we do.


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## Suburbanist

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> I haven't met that many Chileans, but when I did an exchange in Barcelona a couple of years ago, there were a group of Chilean students from Santiago and most of them would have not be distinguished in their way of thinking or acting as compared to most of the other European people at my university. They seemed to be really easily integrated in the Barcelona way of life, even more so than some Americans, that could easily be spotted from miles away.


Yes, Erasmus stereotypes are really telling about the economic structures of a country.

In any case, just because you claimed the off-topic: the reason many of American exchange students in European universities can be "spotted from a mile away" is due to the sudden lack of regulation they find themselves in, like free drinking even if they are under 21 etc. The majority of them, however, will just blend in like everyone else. At most, they will speak, for obvious reasons, much better English, instead of that strange collection of weird-accent English most Erasmus (bachelor) students speak. At least this is my experience as a TA here.


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## Atomicus

isakres said:


> Easy dudes, I dont think Skyprince was bashing on Spain, I think he just doesnt get as much news of Spain in Malaysia as we do.



^^ We were just informing him then


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## Ulpia-Serdica

Suburbanist said:


> Yes, Erasmus stereotypes are really telling about the economic structures of a country.
> 
> In any case, just because you claimed the off-topic: the reason many of American exchange students in European universities can be "spotted from a mile away" is due to the sudden lack of regulation they find themselves in, like free drinking even if they are under 21 etc. The majority of them, however, will just blend in like everyone else. At most, they will speak, for obvious reasons, much better English, instead of that strange collection of weird-accent English most Erasmus (bachelor) students speak. At least this is my experience as a TA here.


Obviously don't take my experience has a god-given and nor should you consider it as the norm for all Chileans. I clearly said that I do not know many Chileans.


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## isakres

Suburbanist said:


> Yes, Erasmus stereotypes are really telling about the economic structures of a country.
> 
> In any case, just because you claimed the off-topic: the reason many of American exchange students in European universities can be "spotted from a mile away" is due to the sudden lack of regulation they find themselves in, like free drinking even if they are under 21 etc. The majority of them, however, will just blend in like everyone else. At most, they will speak, for obvious reasons, much better English, instead of that strange collection of weird-accent English most Erasmus (bachelor) students speak. At least this is my experience as a TA here.


Americans are easily spotted everywhere and not just becase the sudden lack of regulation they find themselves, nor because they have not weird accent.


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## Atomicus

@Skyprince, never saw this either there in Indonesia? There is in the "neighbouring" China.


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## Skyprince

@Atomicus, isakres & mesch- Thanks for explanation. Interesting to know that :cheers:

Though I can simply compare that to Thailand - while Thailand doesn't produce high-speed trains they have vibrant automobile industry, a vibrant tourism industry ( best in Southeast Asia ), a great airline ( THAI Airways ) flying to many destinations ( bigger network than IBERIA ? ) , Thai products from food to cosmetics to detergent to medicine can be found ALL OVER Asia, and its a popular medical tourism destination for many. 

Yet Thailand's GDp per-capita is very low compared to Spain.


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## Skyprince

Pradable said:


> A lot big companies set in LATAM are from Spain, Santander, Zara, Telefonica, BBVA and i could name a ton... but Spanish are the owner of a lot Energy companies here southamerica, specially electricity like Endesa, which it's a company that costs a LOT.





gabrielbabb said:


> Most of the things coming from Spain are stablished in Latin America, for example cellphone companies, clothes, banks, cars factories, wine, sausages. They also produce about 20% of eolic energy in the world


Aha I see... that explains alot. Spain's presence in this part of the world ( Southeast & East Asia ) is quite minimal.

Also, being surrounded by rich neighbours ( unlike Thailand ) also helps.


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## Atomicus

a


Skyprince said:


> @Atomicus, isakres & mesch- Thanks for explanation. Interesting to know that :cheers:
> 
> Though I can simply compare that to Thailand - while Thailand doesn't produce high-speed trains they have vibrant automobile industry, a vibrant tourism industry ( best in Southeast Asia ), a great airline ( THAI Airways ) flying to many destinations ( bigger network than IBERIA ? ) , Thai products from food to cosmetics to detergent to medicine can be found ALL OVER Asia, and its a popular medical tourism destination for many.
> 
> Yet Thailand's GDp per-capita is very low compared to Spain.


I know you just asked but no, Iberia does have a bigger network than Thai Airways. Actually Iberia is ranked as 20th as the airlines with more destinations, Thai Airways doesn't seem to come close.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_largest_airlines

Iberia has 104 planes / 170 planes (with subsidiaries, not including British Airways which is a partner) while Thai Airways have 92. *Iberia 120 destinations while Thai Airways 71.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Airways_International
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberia_(airline)

Anyway I'm not sure what is the point you try to make with the comparison. Exports and production alone don't make a country to be developed or developing. Spain is 16th as world exported ahead of countries that are more developed, and below some developing nations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

=>Exports worth of $253,000,000,000 which is even slightly higher than what much bigger and populated countries like India, Brazil... export. And way ahead of Thailand btw.

(2010 figures, 2011 is almost +18% for Spain)



> *Exports grow steadily*
> 
> With growth of 17.4% to 185.799 million euros in sales, *the export sector has recovered to pre-crisis levels*, according to data released by the Ministry of Industry. With a contribution of 1.1% to Gross Domestic Product (GDP), has brought stability to the Spanish economy. The improvement in exports including emerging countries, has allowed the trade deficit is not increased because of rising global energy prices. *The year 2011, Spain is among the countries with overall export growth*, according to OECD forecasts. *The international institution puts Spain in fifth place in the ranking*, with estimated *exports of goods and services 9.9%*. Spain is _placed after Germany and Slovakia_, which will increase its sales abroad by 10.4%. [56] [57] [58]
> 
> Spain's trade deficit shrank in October 2011, 1.9% to 3.632 million euros, announced the Ministry of Economy. The Spanish exports grew 11.5% compared to October 2010, to reach 19.394 million euros, the statement said. The increases were highest in exports of capital goods, which rose 14.8% over the first ten months of 2010 and the automotive sector, up 14.3% in a year. Spain recorded a trade surplus in trade with the European Union (EU), of 3,043 million euros in the first ten months of the year. *While domestic consumption is stopped, its exports continue to grow, however, the global slowdown*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Spain



Skyprince said:


> Aha I see... that explains alot. Spain's presence in this part of the world ( Southeast & East Asia ) is quite minimal.
> 
> Also, being surrounded by rich neighbours ( unlike Thailand ) also helps.


Yes, but being sourrounded by rich neighbours means also more competition. Spain worked hard to reach the developed status


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## Pradable

I don't know if it's been already discussed, but i have a doubt...
*Why HDI future estimation are downgrading sweden so much?*
it isn't supposed to like the paradise those escandinavian countries? never been there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...pment_Index_projections_of_the_United_Nations


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## PadArch

Pradable said:


> I don't know if it's been already discussed, but i have a doubt...
> *Why HDI future estimation are downgrading sweden so much?*
> it isn't supposed to like the paradise those escandinavian countries? never been there.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...pment_Index_projections_of_the_United_Nations


I don't know.. its pretty wierd though. I wouldn't pay too much attention to it.


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## Galro

Pradable said:


> I don't know if it's been already discussed, but i have a doubt...
> *Why HDI future estimation are downgrading sweden so much?*


Well, if you have seen the Swedish Chef then you will know that the Swedish cuisine isn't much to brag about. This is probably hampering their future.


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## haikiller11

Acosta said:


> I agree, but I also divide the "fully developed countries" in 4 categories.
> 
> 1. Developped as heaven: Scandinavia, Australia, NZ, Japan, South Korea, Netherlands, Switzerland
> 2. Very developed: USA, Canada, Germany, Austria, UK, Ireland, Singapore
> 3. Developed: France, Spain, Italy, Belgium, Slovenia, Taiwan, Israel, HK
> 4. Developed, but not very much: Czech Republic, maybe Slovakia, Portugal, Greece, Cyprus, Malta, some arab countries like Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Brunei, Kuwait
> 
> ____
> 
> Nearly developed: Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Baltic countries, Poland, Russia, Hungary, Croatia, Kazakhstan, Malaysia, (Turkey and Lebanon?)
> 
> Developing: Most of the balkan countries, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, most of Southeastern Asia countries, most of Latin America (with the exception of Bolivia, Paraguay, Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti), South Africa, Namibia, Botswana
> 
> Undeveloped:
> 
> 1. Almost developing: countries like India
> 2. Completely undeveloped (as hell ): countries like the Democratic Republic of Congo
> 
> Cheers.


What on Earth is this :nuts: South Korea is better than France, Belgium, Austria, Canada, US,........??? What a bloody joke :lol: Seriously, you are kidding right?


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## Messi

There must be a reason why S. Korea is above France in the HDI ranking...


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## Godius

I see that a lot of people underestimate South Korea, thats so unjustified.


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## Messi

It takes longer mentalities to change than countries.


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## VECTROTALENZIS

haikiller11 said:


> What on Earth is this :nuts: South Korea is better than France, Belgium, Austria, Canada, US,........??? What a bloody joke :lol: Seriously, you are kidding right?


HDI for these countries:

*South Korea 0.897

Belgium	0.886

Austria	0.885

France	0.884*


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## henrique42

does south korea receive so much asylum seekers and immigrants as france?


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## isakres

haikiller11 said:


> What on Earth is this :nuts: South Korea is better than France, Belgium, Austria, Canada, US,........??? What a bloody joke :lol: Seriously, you are kidding right?


Dude, South Korea has been overtaking many European Economies over the past 5 years in almost every indicator plus, their economic growth is still to die for considering growth among developed countries. On which planet do you live?


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## henrique42

I suppose you can't compare way of life just by comparing economic data.
Never heard of someone who would like to live the ''south korean way of life'', but on the other hand, the quality of french life is just a bit more inspiring.


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## Godius

henrique42 said:


> I suppose you can't compare way of life just by comparing economic data.
> Never heard of someone who would like to live the ''south korean way of life'', but on the other hand, the quality of french life is just a bit more inspiring.












It seems like you are living in the 19th century or something.


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## henrique42

''It seems like you are living in the 19th century or something.''

no, but when i travel to europe, i see yellow faces everywhere, and i doubt if south korea is invaded by european tourists.
wtf wants to go to/ be in/ be like south korea?


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## geococcyx

henrique42 said:


> I suppose you can't compare way of life just by comparing economic data.
> Never heard of someone who would like to live the ''south korean way of life'', but on the other hand, the quality of french life is just a bit more inspiring.


ugh, eurocentrism is so passé and disturbing:bash:


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## VECTROTALENZIS

henrique42 said:


> ''It seems like you are living in the 19th century or something.''
> 
> no, but when i travel to europe, i see yellow faces everywhere, and i doubt if south korea is invaded by european tourists.
> wtf wants to go to/ be in/ be like south korea?


Heard of the Korean wave?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_wave


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## henrique42

and i'm not even european, but south korea? no thanks, not even the south koreans like their country it seems.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/01/04/2011010400291.html

korean wave? in china? well, who wants to be a chinese?


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## VECTROTALENZIS

henrique42 said:


> and i'm not even european, but south korea? no thanks, not even the south koreans like their country it seems.
> 
> http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/01/04/2011010400291.html
> 
> korean wave? in china? well, who wants to be a chinese?


Almost all over the world...last summer the was a korean pop concert in Paris that sold out in 10 min.

Watch these news clips about the phenomenon:

USA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsnVitJ5Vvw

Mexico

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFlxy1aQv30


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## Atomicus

geococcyx said:


> ugh, eurocentrism is so passé and disturbing:bash:


I don't think it's eurocentrism, you need to work on your resintements or something judging from your constant posts with the same tone. :laugh:

Actually, he has a point regarding "the way of life" and all of that. One has a lot of reasons to praise South Korea, but the way of living ain't one of them. Did you check their average working hours per week? It would be meaningless (taking into account Greece ranks right afterwards in the ranking) if it wasn't because they have also A VERY high productivity. Also, did you check their suicide rates? Vactions per year, etc?

Said this, one shouldn't get surprised either to see South Korea with such a high HDI index. They make top-noch, very high productivity, GDP per capita increasing, good education, life expectancy, infraestructures, and so on...  

But there is a point in saying, as I explained, why one wouldn't want the "korean way of life". Much, much more harsh than the Japanese one!


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## Messi

S.Korea being not fully developed yet like France, is already more developed than France in many aspects. Now think about future! And wtf is "French way of life" and "everyone wants to be French" thing? If you talk about popularity Korean things are very popular in Asia. Your answer to that is "who wants to be Chinese?" Well, if you imagine that they realize things Europe can dream of only with 1/5 of Europe's GDP per capita imagine a fully developed China. I am actually admiring China. And France.. well, they've got the Eiffel tower...


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## VECTROTALENZIS

Atomicus said:


> I don't think it's eurocentrism, you need to work on your resintements or something judging from your constant posts with the same tone. :laugh:
> 
> Actually, he has a point regarding "the way of life" and all of that. One has a lot of reasons to praise South Korea, but the way of living ain't one of them. Did you check their average working hours per week? It would be meaningless (taking into account Greece ranks right afterwards in the ranking) if it wasn't because they have also A VERY high productivity. Also, did you check their suicide rates? Vactions per year, etc?
> 
> Said this, one shouldn't get surprised either to see South Korea with such a high HDI index. They make top-noch, very high productivity, GDP per capita increasing, good education, life expectancy, infraestructures, and so on...
> 
> But there is a point in saying, as I explained, why one wouldn't want the "korean way of life". Much, much more harsh than the Japanese one!


I would love to live a Korean or a Japanese life rather than my boring Swedish life at the moment! I like the work ethics there, they have much better work ethics than the in the west. 

For me:

high-paced life = more interesting


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## megacity30

Aaronj09 said:


> Estonia is a developed country


Yes, that's true; Estonia ranks 36 overall in the world.
The list is an eye-opener for me as well.


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## Atomicus

The Cake On BBQ said:


> Despite the fact that Spain is one of my favourite countries, I never understood how it became a developed country. I cant name any big Spanish company or product except some clothing brands, I never understood how Greece became a developed (or almost developed) country either, even before the crisis. And obvisously many people think the same way I do and that is why they are so concerned about Spain and Greece.


Well, no offense but that's ignorance and very simplistic. 

As I told to Skyprince just few posts ago a country doesn't need to have "famous" brands for the average FOREIGN consumer in order to become developed. Economies can be focused on many things, and exporting "famous" brands is just one of them.

In order for a country to become developed it just needs a starting point to develop. Countries like China got a really strong starting push being a country hosting a lot of factories from Japan, S.Korea and "the West". Spain was similar to this by being the factory of Europe: meaning, they can produce cheaper while being close to big markets like Germany, France or the UK... Also, during the Franco era we funded some basic companies such as Telefonica (which now owns O2 in the UK, Alice in Germany, etc), airlines like Iberia, and all of that.

Said that, as I explained some posts ago we make top-noch trains (do a research about CAF or Talgo), parts of the airbus, a lot of stuff related to food, one of the best carbon-fiber related stuff, we are among the top countries leading renovable energies (Endesa, Unión Fenosa, etc) good infraestructures, relatively educated people, good health-care... 

*Anyway, we are ranked 16th as export country, ahead of countries like Brazil or India (at least in 2010) which are more populated...* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

That you or the average consumer don't know about this doesn't mean we got developed artifically or that we don't produce...


----------



## Atomicus

Anyway, as I said I hope you don't take offense from what I said. Actually, I feel happy concerns about Spain are partially due ignorance. Would be much more worrying that people that know a lot of Spain was hopeless about us..


----------



## isakres

chornedsnorkack said:


> So, how about question "when"?
> 
> GDP per capita:
> 1965:
> Argentina 1271
> Austria 1378
> France 2012
> Greece 889
> Italy 1304
> Portugal 513
> Spain 772
> United Kingdom 1851
> United States 3665
> 1970:
> Argentina 1317
> Austria 2055
> France 2821
> Greece 1438
> Italy 2030
> Portugal 884
> Spain 1178
> United Kingdom 2243
> United States 4998
> 1975:
> Argentina 2011
> Austria 5263
> France 6599
> Greece 3034
> Italy 3957
> Portugal 2097
> Spain 3138
> United Kingdom 4205
> United States 7517
> 1980:
> Argentina 7478
> Austria 10626
> France 12859
> Greece 5563
> Italy 8169
> Portugal 3283
> Spain 6005
> United Kingdom 9630
> United States 12249
> 1985:
> Argentina 2905
> Austria 9001
> France 9906
> Greece 4543
> Italy 7724
> Portugal 2674
> Spain 4600
> United Kingdom 8292
> United States 17690
> 1990:
> Argentina 4344
> Austria 21524
> France 22007
> Greece 9073
> Italy 20029
> Portugal 7816
> Spain 13408
> United Kingdom 17782
> United States 23198
> 1995:
> Argentina 7418
> Austria 30013
> France 27170
> Greece 12078
> Italy 19819
> Portugal 11603
> Spain 15164
> United Kingdom 19947
> United States 27827
> 2000:
> Argentina 7733
> Austria 23936
> France 22550
> Greece 11662
> Italy 19334
> Portugal 11511
> Spain 14464
> United Kingdom 25142
> United States 35252
> 2005:
> Argentina 4742
> Austria 36892
> France 34952
> Greece 21936
> Italy 30460
> Portugal 18188
> Spain 26305
> United Kingdom 37898
> United States 42629
> 2010:
> Argentina 9131
> Austria 44988
> France 40704
> Greece 27311
> Italy 34059
> Portugal 21542
> Spain 30639
> United Kingdom 36164
> United States 46860


So Spain became developed in the 80s?...

Pls take Argentina out of that list :cripes: shame on all of its presidents! :bash:


----------



## Orionol

megacity30 said:


> The following is a list of 42 developed countries in the world today, based on very high GDP(PPP)-per-capita-income (greater than US$ 20000), very low income inequality and very high human development (inequality-adjusted HDI greater than 0.8) in 2011.
> 
> Approximately 15% of the world's population lives in these developed countries.
> That translates to approximately 1.03614 billion people live in developed countries out of a total 6.9076 billion people (the world's population when the UN and IMF reports were published).
> 
> Here's how I calculated this list:
> 
> (1) Ranked by inequality-adjusted HDI using the 2011 UN Development Report.
> 
> Human Development Index (HDI): A composite index measuring average achievement in three basic dimensions of human development- a long and healthy life, knowledge and a decent standard of living for every citizen in a country.
> 
> Inequality-adjusted / GINI coefficient: The Gini coefficient measures the inequality among values of a frequency distribution (for example, levels of income in this case).
> This is also necessary because, for example, a country cannot be developed when 25% of its residents are extremely wealthy (wealthier than most of the developed world) and 75% of its residents live in extreme poverty (income less than the UN threshold of US$ 2 per capita per day). I was amazed there are quite a few such countries in our world; talk about people and governance being apathetic and selfish!
> 
> 
> (2) Then categorized by GNI / GDP(PPP)-per-capita using both the UN report and 2011 IMF publications per country.
> 
> 
> Since tertiary indices like livability factor, economic freedom, economic diversity, ability of a citizen to live anywhere in his / her country, and gross national happiness haven't been considered while creating this list, please feel free to sensibly comment and provide your educated inputs.
> Please don't troll as I've spent several hours compiling this list; thank you.
> 
> 
> Sources:
> 
> International Monetary Fund (www.imf.org)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...PP)_per_capita)
> 
> UN Development report 2011: http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2011_EN_Tables.pdf
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncome_equality
> 
> http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/...elopment_Index
> 
> 
> This list ranks the developed countries based on the factors discussed earlier.
> 
> In parentheses (GINI-coefficient-adjusted HDI, GDP(PPP)-per-capita in US$)
> 
> *
> 1 Monaco (0.946, 186,175)
> 
> 2 San Marino (0.944 in 2007 UN report, 41,900 in 2007)
> 
> 3 Norway (0.943, 53,376)
> 
> 4 Australia (0.929, 40,836)
> 
> 5 Netherlands (0.910, 42,330)
> 
> 6 United States (0.910, 48,147)
> 
> 7 New Zealand (0.908, 27,966)
> 
> 8 Canada (0.908, 40,457)
> 
> 9 Ireland (0.908, 39,507)
> 
> 10 Liechtenstein (0.905, 95,249)
> 
> 11 Germany (0.905, 37,935)
> 
> 12 Sweden (0.904, 40,613)
> 
> 13 Switzerland (0.903, 43,508)
> 
> 14 Japan (0.901, 34,362)
> 
> 15 Hong Kong, China - SAR (0.898, 49,342)
> 
> 16 Iceland (0.898, 38,079)
> 
> 17 South Korea (0.897, 31,753)
> 
> 18 Denmark (0.895, 37,741)
> 
> 19 Israel (0.888, 31,004)
> 
> 20 Belgium (0.886, 37,677)
> 
> 21 Austria (0.885, 41,805)
> 
> 22 France (0.884, 35,048)
> 
> 23 Slovenia (0.884, 29,179)
> 
> 24 Finland (0.882, 36,723)
> 
> 25 Spain (0.878, 30,622)
> 
> 26 Italy (0.874, 30,165)
> 
> 27 Luxembourg (0.867, 84,829)
> 
> 28 Singapore (0.866, 59,936)
> 
> 29 Czech Republic (0.865, 25,933)
> 
> 30 United Kingdom (0.863, 35,974)
> 
> 31 Greece (0.861, 27,624)
> 
> 32 United Arab Emirates (0.846, 48,597)
> 
> 33 Cyprus (0.840, 29,100)
> 
> 34 Andorra (0.838, 44,900)
> 
> 35 Brunei Darussalam (0.838, 49,517)
> 
> 36 Estonia (0.835, 20,182)
> 
> 37 Slovakia (0.834, 23,384)
> 
> 38 Malta (0.832, 25,782)
> 
> 39 Qatar (0.831, 102,891)
> 
> 40 Poland (0.813, 20,136)
> 
> 41 Portugal (0.809, 23,204)
> 
> 42 Bahrain (0.806, 27,368)
> *



Aha so Poland and Slovakia is Developed? 
I've been to both country, and well from what I have seen, they arent so bad, they look developed (specially in the big cities) but many people accuse them to be developing. I myself consider them developed with Hungary, from what I have seen and heard. Very clean and fresh build countries, although there are plenty of work that has to be done. And ofc there are many old building from WW2 aswell. But from my point of view, they are developed.:cheers:

And this includes also economic.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

isakres said:


> So Spain became developed in the 80s?...
> 
> Pls take Argentina out of that list :cripes: shame on all of its presidents! :bash:


Argentina is quite purposefully on the list! As you can see, in 1965 Argentina was much richer than Spain, Portugal or Greece and not much poorer than Austria or Italy.

GDP of Spain as percentage of Italy:
1965 - 59,2
1970 - 58,0
1975 - 79,3
1980 - 73,5
1985 - 59,6
1990 - 66,9
1995 - 76,5
2000 - 74,8
2005 - 86,4
2010 - 90,0

GDP of Argentina as percentage of Spain:
1965 - 164,6
1970 - 111,8
1975 - 64,1
1980 - 124,5
1985 - 63,2
1990 - 32,4
1995 - 48,9
2000 - 53,5
2005 - 18,0
2010 - 29,8


----------



## geococcyx

Pavlemadrid said:


> Portugal and Greece are in a very different level compared with Spain and Italy, don't be absurd.
> Spanish and Italian economies are relatively similar, but there are large differences in cultural and social aspects.


Really?

Why does Spain have more unemployment than Greece or Portugal? 
25% unemployment in general and 50% unemployment for young and you say they are different? Your credit ratings are trash, you are being attacked by markets, you have irresponsible behaviour with finances, etc...just like Italy, Portugal and Greece.

How come they thare called P.I.G.S. economies?

There is NOTHING wrong with being considered similar to Greece or Portugal, becos you are. 

I would be wrong if I said Spain or Italy are similar to France, Austria or Germany, when it is obviously big difference.

Simply put, spain and italy are southern european like greece and portugal, which are generally less productive, more corrupt, etc, than northern europeans. That is why northern europe is not in crisis and are rich while southern europe is about to collapse and is poor and that has always been the case. Southern europe depends a lot on the money Germany, Austria, Finland, etc, give them; without them, they probably wouldn´t be even developed or have many troubles.


----------



## Atomicus

^^ Troll. Someone explained already to you or debated all of that on the skybar and here but I guess It is better to ignore.

Btw, our unemployment is 23%.

We are in Spain in crisis because we got a construction buble that got burst, not because of overspending ours or german's money (our debt comes from the private sector that affected the public one) while the reason why Greece is in crisis is not because of that...

Our exports grew in 2011 and are going pretty nice now despite the world slowing down (unlike Greece or Portugal), so I don't think our crisis is really a crisis of productivity (despite that we have to work on it too) or being lazy.


----------



## pobre diablo

pobre diablo said:


> I really don't understand this whole debate about who's developed and who's not when I see 2015 forecast of Cuba with very high HDI.


I still did not get an explanation as to how Cuba will become a developed country in 3 years?


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

geococcyx...there is dumb and then there is you. Leave thinking to people with brains.


----------



## geococcyx

Atomicus said:


> ^^ Troll. Someone explained already to you or debated all of that on the skybar and here but I guess It is better to ignore.
> 
> Btw, our unemployment is 23%.
> 
> We are in Spain in crisis because we got a construction buble that got burst, not because of overspending ours or german's money (our debt comes from the private sector that affected the public one) while the reason why Greece is in crisis is not because of that...
> 
> Our exports grew in 2011 and are going pretty nice now despite the world slowing down (unlike Greece or Portugal), so I don't think our crisis is really a crisis of productivity (despite that we have to work on it too) or being lazy.


Why troll? Just because I say my opinions? Don't I have a right to have them and post them? Just because you sell the story that everything is fine doesn't mean it is true. Everyone knows the problemas of southern europeans becos it is in the news EVERYDAY.



Ulpia-Serdica said:


> geococcyx...there is dumb and then there is you. Leave thinking to people with brains.


Well, I guess you are no different since you don't respond with facts or opinions but attack me which is ad hominem.
-------------------------------------------

Anyways, I'm done talking about southern europe becos they are very sensative. If they want to believe they have no problems and everything is perfect, that is their problem.

To answer the question, Portugal and Greece will probably become developing. Italy and Spain have a better chance in my opinion.

I'm out of this thread becos some people behave like fascists and attack anyone who doesn't believe their stories or has different opinion.

BYE.:goodbye:


----------



## Atomicus

geococcyx said:


> Why troll? Just because I say my opinions? Don't I have a right to have them and post them? Just because *you sell the story that everything is fine* doesn't mean it is true. Everyone knows the problemas of southern europeans becos it is in the news EVERYDAY.


Your English sucks if you think that way about what I sell.




> Well, I guess you are no different since *you don't respond with facts or opinions* but attack me which is ad hominem.


:crazy:




> Anyways, I'm done talking about southern europe becos they are very sensative. If they want to believe they have no problems and everything is perfect, that is their problem.
> 
> To answer the question, Portugal and Greece will probably become developing. Italy and Spain have a better chance in my opinion.
> 
> I'm out of this thread becos some people behave like fascists and attack anyone who doesn't believe their stories or has different opinion.
> 
> BYE.:goodbye:


When you ignore the facts people present to you over, and over while coming here to say we are lazy, we are irresponsible without bothering to check why each country is in crisis, don't expect people to deal with you with fairness, you reap what you sow. That's why I called you troll.


----------



## The Cake On BBQ

Atomicus said:


> Anyway, as I said I hope you don't take offense from what I said. Actually, I feel happy concerns about Spain are partially due ignorance. Would be much more worrying that people that know a lot of Spain was hopeless about us..


No, I didnt take any offence. I didnt know much about Spanish Economy, and I still dont but I hope everything goes well for Spain.


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

geococcyx said:


> Well, I guess you are no different since you don't respond with facts or opinions but attack me which is ad hominem.


Oh yea! Sooo many facts in your reasoning. 

Since you read the news everyday tell me what is the problem of the Spanish economy? Because even in the midst of their largest economic crises in decades, Spain was able to publish more scientific literature than booming Mexico and still is much more a knowledge economy than most countries in the world and has much more reason to be called developed. Northern Spain is more productive than any region in Mexico. Do you know the name of the two largest banks in Mexico? Hint , they are Spanish. Second largest telecommunications provider in Mexico? Correct, Spanish. 

You have no idea about the Spanish economy apart from the few articles you have read in your local newspaper. You don't know that actually Spain is one of the countries in the OECD with the lowest % of public debt. You don't know that the problem in Spain is not caused by the public debt but by archaic labor laws. 

Like I told you, leave thinking for people with brains.


----------



## geococcyx

^ funny. You don't get attacked for saying you don't know how spain became developed and other forumers that say it, even though that is more offensive than stating FACTS.

But I get attacked, called names, etc for saying unemployment is extremely high *fact*, for saying markets attack southern europe and their bonds are junk *fact*, for saying they are poorer and less productive than the north *fact*, for saying they depend on money for a lot of things from the the north through loans, ecb buying their bonds or cohesion funds *fact*, etc.

:crazy:

Anyways, I wish southern europe the best and that they don't become developing becos there are real people that suffer.

This thread is just very hypocritical.:wave:


----------



## snicket

Argentina is a unique case in the world











They say Italy will be "the next Argentina"


----------



## Atomicus

geococcyx said:


> ^ funny. You don't get attacked for saying you don't know how spain became developed and other forumers that say it, even though that is more offensive than stating FACTS.
> 
> But I get attacked, called names, etc for saying unemployment is extremely high *fact*


Yes, our unemployment is high, but several people explained to you why Spain has it higher while you seem to ignore the information just to say "we are all the same"... In addition you gave numbers that were not true. That's why you got hostility.



> for saying they are poorer and less productive than the north *fact*


The thing here is that you didn't say just that we were less productive and rich, you said we were lazy (you may have edited your last post but it is what you said and are saying everywhere) and irresponsable. Big difference there, that's why people turned hostile to you.



> for saying they depend on money for a lot of things from the the north through loans, ecb buying their bonds or cohesion funds *fact*, etc.


But again, you just didn't say that, but that we wouldn't be developed if it wasn't because of the germans, that the germans are our kings or that we are about to collapse... And you are doing so on several sections, that's why people turned hostile to you.



> This thread is just very hypocritical.:wave:


The thread is OK. The problem of it is people like you that come here for flammebaiting while turning cynical when people deal with you according to your behaviour.


----------



## The Cake On BBQ

How did Argentina downgrade?


----------



## Atomicus

Btw, hypocritical is saying "i'm out of this thread" while still coming to it :laugh:


----------



## geococcyx

The Cake On BBQ said:


> How did Argentina downgrade?


They are a copy of Spain and Italy...except they don't have Germany, the EU and ECB as saviours.



Ulpia-Serdica said:


> ...


Country versus are prohibited in this forum. But if you want something, I'll give you something: We are GROWING, we are CREATING jobs and we are not about to COLLAPSE like the other country you mentioned.

Mexico vs Spain: no contest

Financial Times

January 4, 2012 5:17 pm by Kimiko de Freytas-Tamura

Far be it from beyondbrics to encourage schadenfreude among EM investors. But it’s hard not to notice the difference in fortunes between Mexico and its one-time colonial masters in Spain shown by purchasing managers’ indices published on Tuesday and Wednesday.

Mexico’s economy has managed to keep its head well above water despite the global downturn but Spain is flailing: manufacturing and services sectors in Mexico enjoyed expansion in December while the best Spain could manage was somewhat slower – though still alarming – rates of contraction...

Financial Times

Now I'm leaving this thread full of nonsense!

CHAU.:cheers:


----------



## sebvill

Of course Spain is developed for nowday standards. With the loads of money the EU pour on it, it would be a shame if it wasnt.


----------



## Nolke

sebvill said:


> Of course Spain is developed for nowday standards. With the loads of money the EU pour on it, it would be a shame if it wasnt.


Absolutely. Spain would have never grown if it wasn't for those European funds that made up the 0.8% of its GDP between 1986 and 2006.


----------



## Name user 1

Nolke said:


> Absolutely. Spain would have never grown if it wasn't for those European funds that made up the 0.8% of its GDP between 1986 and 2006.


% of Spain budget not % of GDP is important to compare


----------



## Nolke

That's hard to say because the funds are shared among many different administrations. I couldn't find an official balance, but according to this graph it must have been at most a 0.6% of the total public incomes during the last years (obviously, that's a balance, i.e., the amount of EU funds that arrives to the country could have reached at times the 4%, but Spain gives to the EU almost as much money as it gets from it and that contribution has to be sustracted). The balance may have been bigger in previous decades but not so larger.

Anyway, believe me if I tell you that having more public funds to spend doesn't develop a country.


----------



## pesto

Atomicus said:


> Not true.
> 
> The Wall Street Journal
> 
> [/B]
> 
> ---------------
> 
> And seriously... Arguinig wether Spain is or not a developed country is ridiculous. I don't know any serious organization or economist who doesn't consider Spain a developed country. Nor now nor in 2007. Just come and visit Spain.


If you mean visit Madrid and Barcelona or other large cities, I agree. But Spanish small towns and countryside are still notoriously 3rd world, as the economic and finance commissions in Europe often point out. Corruption (and simple lack of records) is notorious, tax evasion endemic, auditing standards ignored, and living standards low. The EU exempts Spain from various agricultural and tax rules, because it can't comply. Last I looked (a few years ago) minimum wages were different for men and women, which I had never seen except in the 3rd world (where it's usually illegal, but the law is ignored). This is, of course, changing, but it is far from a reality.

I don't have the cite at hand but I read a recent article that said that computer professionals are leaving Spain to find better jobs in other countries, and 1 guy said he makes more as a bartender in the UK than as a programmer in Spain. Unemployment among men under 25 is *50 percent*. These conditions are not consistent with a fully developed economy; closer to India or Eastern Europe.


----------



## Jonesy55

Have you ever been to Spain? Which agricultural and tax rules are they exempt from? Saying that smaller Spanish towns are 'notoriously third world' is somewhat ridiculous imo...


----------



## Pavlemadrid

pesto said:


> If you mean visit Madrid and Barcelona or other large cities, I agree. *But Spanish small towns and countryside are still notoriously 3rd world, as the economic and finance commissions in Europe often point out. Corruption (and simple lack of records) is notorious, tax evasion endemic, auditing standards ignored, and living standards low. The EU exempts Spain from various agricultural and tax rules, because it can't comply. Last I looked (a few years ago) minimum wages were different for men and women, which I had never seen except in the 3rd world (where it's usually illegal, but the law is ignored). This is, of course, changing, but it is far from a reality.*
> 
> I don't have the cite at hand but I read a recent article that said that computer professionals are leaving Spain to find better jobs in other countries, and 1 guy said he makes more as a bartender in the UK than as a programmer in Spain. Unemployment among men under 25 is *50 percent*. These conditions are not consistent with a fully developed economy; closer to India or Eastern Europe.


:crazy:

A minium wage for women? Are you dreaming?


----------



## Gorky

pesto said:


> If you mean visit Madrid and Barcelona or other large cities, I agree. But Spanish small towns and countryside are still notoriously 3rd world, as the economic and finance commissions in Europe often point out. Corruption (and simple lack of records) is notorious, tax evasion endemic, auditing standards ignored, and living standards low. The EU exempts Spain from various agricultural and tax rules, because it can't comply. Last I looked (a few years ago) minimum wages were different for men and women, which I had never seen except in the 3rd world (where it's usually illegal, but the law is ignored). This is, of course, changing, but it is far from a reality.
> 
> I don't have the cite at hand but I read a recent article that said that computer professionals are leaving Spain to find better jobs in other countries, and 1 guy said he makes more as a bartender in the UK than as a programmer in Spain. Unemployment among men under 25 is *50 percent*. These conditions are not consistent with a fully developed economy; closer to India or Eastern Europe.


:nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts: *I had never seen such a ridiculous comment, and a lack of knowledge of a country *.... the Spanish medium and small cities have a high level of development my friend..:nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts:


----------



## Dallas star

Russia


----------



## Motul

Obviously Greece.. Looking increasingly thrid worldy these days


----------



## Atomicus

pesto said:


> If you mean visit Madrid and Barcelona or other large cities, I agree. But Spanish small towns and countryside are still notoriously 3rd world, as the economic and finance commissions in Europe often point out. Corruption (and simple lack of records) is notorious, tax evasion endemic, auditing standards ignored, and living standards low. The EU exempts Spain from various agricultural and tax rules, because it can't comply. Last I looked (a few years ago) minimum wages were different for men and women, which I had never seen except in the 3rd world (where it's usually illegal, but the law is ignored). This is, of course, changing, but it is far from a reality.
> 
> I don't have the cite at hand but I read a recent article that said that computer professionals are leaving Spain to find better jobs in other countries, and 1 guy said he makes more as a bartender in the UK than as a programmer in Spain. Unemployment among men under 25 is *50 percent*. These conditions are not consistent with a fully developed economy; closer to India or Eastern Europe.



I think you are lost here pal, 4chan is in the other way. At least give me sources for the women or the agricultural taxes thing.


----------



## Kaetzar

I am really amazed by the big ignorance about Spain in this thread. But another forumers aren't ignorant, they only have prejudices impossible to eradicate. Isn't that true, *sebvill*?

What would the peruvian government had done with a fund of 0.7% GDP between 1986-2006? Would Peru be as developped like Spain?

You need more information about history of economy, and a fresh mind free of prejudices to understand it.


----------



## henrique42

It's that same old inferiority complex, of which my south american compatriots suffer......
Sitting in their middle class apartment, behind their computer screen ,they believe that after a few years of growth, we will conquer the world, and smash the hated imperialist countries. Old ones like Spain , or new ones like the US, some over here really think (or would love to believe) that the current crises will never pass, our growth will never pass, and some over here will keep on dreaming abour spanish or american maids, chauffeurs etc, to serve them...
Very pathetic, but give them a break, someday time will show them.


----------



## Jonesy55

Except Pesto seems to be from California, which isn't part of LatAm quite yet.


----------



## henrique42

almost....


----------



## Nolke

But it should be. Give it back, gringos!


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

Jonesy55 said:


> Except Pesto seems to be from California, which isn't part of LatAm quite yet.


Pesto is a sauce originating in Genoa in the Liguria region of northern Italy. Delicious supplement to pasta, I must say. Get you facts straight Jonesy :lol:


----------



## OtAkAw

^^Pesto is from California? :lol:


----------



## Motul

Spain is another choice..


----------



## Pavlemadrid

^^
You wish it, it's clear.
It's amazing how some people love the schadenfreude.


----------



## Atomicus

isakres said:


> Of course not all Latam will overtake Europe. But there will be more than a FEW countries that may catch and overtake the poorest European Economies in the following years. If Colombia manages to keep growing at a 5% pace and Europe remians stagnant or growing below that pace the gap will be narrowed even quicker.


Yes, but when a country gets really developed, keeping with such growths is harder. So don't expect LATAM aproach to some European countries to be completely linear regarding GDP per capita.

Also, those poorest European countries like Macedonia or Romania are also doing a nice job.... Not growing at a 5% but they are growing over 3% during turbulent times like now which is all right.

That the gap will be narrowed, well, about that, I agree. But not only between the richest LATAM countries and the poorest European countries, but between the richest LATAM countries and the richest European and non-European coutries too. Which is nice for the world economic balance.


----------



## isakres

Atomicus said:


> *When a country gets really developed, keeping with such growths is harder*. So don't expect LATAM aproach to some European countries to be completely linear regarding GDP per capita.
> 
> That the gap will be narrowed, well, about that, I agree. But not only between the richest LATAM countries and the poorest European countries, but between the richest LATAM countries and the richest European and non-European coutries too. Which is nice for the world economic balance.



Of course, look up to South Korea they already slowed their pace but they already are way ahead of many European countries.


----------



## Atomicus

^^ Yes, but to be fair Colombia, Peru and such countries aren't exactly like South Korea  

They even overtook countries like Denmark or Austria regarding HDI:
http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2011_EN_Table1.pdf

Anyway, not that I disagree with you regarding LatAm narrowing the gap with Europe (and the rest of the world). Just that I don't think in per capita terms LatAm will overtake or match Southern-Europe as a whole in the next 10 years. Maybe some small countries, yes, but not Southern-Europe as a whole.


----------



## Motul

SK is another story, true.. Latin America's economic base is more in line with that of Australia. Commodity based economies.

The challenge is to take all that huge surge in FDI and economic growth to transform it into true wellbeing.. Some argue this is not occuring. I personally think it is.. I can see the difference. I think our countries have finally matured and are reaching an ideal place in history to truly develop.


----------



## Atomicus

Motul said:


> SK is another story, true.. Latin America's economic base is more in line with that of Australia. Commodity based economies.
> 
> The challenge is to take all that huge surge in FDI and economic growth to transform it into true wellbeing.. Some argue this is not occuring. I personally think it is.. I can see the difference. I think our countries have finally matured and are reaching an ideal place in history to truly develop.


I guess standards of living (it's what I understand by "well-being") have to be increasing there too. Thought I'd like you to improve the income inequalities.

About South-Korea, it's impressive. It's populated by only 50 million people, yet they are 7th as world exporter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

Anyway, the data for Spain in that ranking is from 2010 as it says. For 2011 it was worth of 280billion $ (216billion €)
http://www.us.spainbusiness.com/ice...v/0,2958,35868_594951_1026487_4562367,00.html

And this regarding Spain may anger geo 


> *Sales to the Americas* continue *to grow strong*, with a 22.1% increase in exports to North America and *20.2% to Latin America.*


----------



## geococcyx

Jonesy55 said:


> :laugh: How can any country have no economic future? That is a ridiculous thing to say. All countries have potential and all countries can make a success of themselves over the long term.


And that is why I edited my original post.



Atomicus said:


> I also said I don't believe in the Spain-LatAm brethren but this is just my personal opinion, which again has nothing to do with what you and geococcyx are claiming.


Well, that is your opinion and its mutual at least for me. Unfortunately, your government seems to think differently, doesn´t it? It is always seeking us, beggin and favoring us, trying to win some business, specially in these desperate times for Spain. And it cries a lot when we nationalize spanish businesses.

In any case, no one cares in latin américa about Spain (maybe only ecuadoreans, since they have a big emigrant community in spain?). Only United States and China are important to our lives. The rest of the world and specially crisis-debt-ridden countries like España, are whatever.


----------



## geococcyx

Yuri S Andrade said:


> So true. Almost all of them (Jonesy is an exception) can't hide their own complex of superiority. They're always displaying contempt towards other parts of the world and they are never curbed.


Yeah, that is why they make so much scandal when they get criticised by a forumer from a developing country. They have a superiority complex.

In any case, I'm outta here becos I wanted to debate and lay the economic case of why spain and portugal are the most at risk of becoming developing, but it is impossible, as some european forumers keep on distracting, spamming and trolling, while others are extremely defensive and not open to constructive criticism.

Bye.


----------



## Atomicus

^^ blah blah. You first troll and flamme bait and then cry when you get what you are asking for. :nuts:

Let's see if it's true you are leaving the thread (though I don't hold much hopes about it since you've said that several times already) taking into account you clearly have nothing to contribute here but with your ignorant and childish remarks. And when someone use arguments to debate you, you come up afterwards either with victimist cries or with more ignorant and childish remarks trying to stirr up the hive "to win" the argument. Pretty much like some other people here with clear agendas unfortunately.

I bet in a week when I'm back you'll still be at it here despite saying you are "outta here" as all the previous times.

What it is clear is that from my side I'm not going to feed you anymore (same with the likes of you).


¡Adiós!



geococcyx said:


> In any case, no one cares in latin américa about Spain (maybe only ecuadoreans, since they have a big emigrant community in spain?). Only United States and China are important to our lives. The rest of the world and specially crisis-debt-ridden countries like España, are whatever.


Nice to know that we have here someone who represents the whole of Latinamerica. I do wonder if most of the other Latinamericans here agree with you being his speaker. :lol:

Now I understand why one of the mexican forumers said here weeks ago that we shouldn't pay much attention to you about economy and society. Saying that Spain ain't important to Latinamerica despite being one of the main investors there is completely laughable.


----------



## sebvill

eklips said:


> Secondly, about Sebvill for example:
> 
> - He gave me shit a few years ago because I took photos of more than just the upper class areas of Lima. (I don't blame him necessarily, but it tells us where he comes from)
> 
> - He comes from one of the richest areas in Lima. I often read the peruvian forum, which is why I came accross that information (I'm not stalking him).
> 
> -His avatar is that of a former ultra-right wing and racist presidential candidate of German origin in his country during last year's election. This candidate for example said that Indigenous peruvians from the mountains were dumber because they didn't receive enough oxygen in their brains. Because people such as this former candidate can't stand that indigenous peruvians from the mountains often protest against the implementation of mining projects in their regions, since they often consider these projects destroy their environment - which they generally live from - and do not give them any benefit which is also true generally since these mining projects are private. This candidate also lived most of his life in the US and was a former world bank economist during the 70's. And we all know the role played by the world bank, especially at that time, in maintaining a dominant/dominated relationship between the "first world" and the "third world".
> 
> -Anyways. I also remember last year, during the peruvian presidential elections that Sebvill, along with many others on the peruvian forums, considered anyone who supported the other candidate, a former soldier who got elected on a center-left program (he turned out to be as right wing as the others anyways though) to be: "resentfull", "ignorant", "chavista" or even "backwards". Comments such as "we peruvians are fucked because our people are too dumb" were pretty common. The scale of the hysterical attacks against those - often more indigenous and poorer - who supported this center-left candidate were very impressive, and not just on SSC, it was generalised. Hundreds of groups were created on facebook with titles such as "if Ollanta Humala is elected, I'm leaving this backward country". It was a massive class reaction against what was regarded as a threat to the point were they all massively supported the daughter of former right wing populist dictator and criminal who went on the second round.
> 
> And if I recall, Sebvill well participated in this hysteria on SSC.
> 
> And these sort of attitudes are not a novelty. Although the way they are said have changed a bit (the Internet is here, people are more politically correct, a small minority of urban indigenous people have entered the upper class, right wing populism entered Peruvian history... ) they are close to how the upper classes in the young and openly racist and colonial Peruvian republic of the 1800's-1960's looked at the overwhelming majority of rural and indigenous people in the country.
> 
> All of these are reasons, in the Peruvian case, why I find these attacks against Spain to be so strange.


You are speaking so much bullsh*t in this post that Im just not gonna even bother answering you. I dont care what you talk or think about me, althought I guess you know that I could at least report you for that but anyway. What you say about PPK and Peru is so far from reality that is nonsense discussing with you. You live in a whole other reality or maybe just in 1920.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Sebvill, he's himself a living cliché (a very old one). A left-wing Parisian scholar who believes to understand Latin America is not exactly breaking news. Therefore we couldn't expect anything different from those hateful clichés he's always posting about Latin America, especially about its white population.


----------



## Motul

He looks at Latin America from a European frame of mind, that's all.. Look at the debate I've been having with a writer from UK based "The Guardian", who questions Colombia's ability to overcome poverty, scrutinising without even offering figures or evidence to support his pessimism (I guess the simple fact of belonging to S.A. is enough to support such pessmism in their eyes). So far he hasn't even been able to respond to my comments with any real solidity.. bassically it's a check-mate. :cheers:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-de.../05/colombia-tackling-poverty-dent-statistics


----------



## Name user 1

The title is somehow misunderstanding - because which state was downgraded in past?


----------



## sebvill

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Sebvill, he's himself a living cliché (a very old one). A left-wing Parisian scholar who believes to understand Latin America is not exactly breaking news. Therefore we couldn't expect anything different from those hateful clichés he's always posting about Latin America, especially about its white population.


Yeah. Thats basically it.


----------



## Name user 1

sebvill said:


> Yeah. Thats basically it.


and how about institutional racism in Latin america countries?


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Not this s... again...

How about the Nazism in Germany, the eugenics in Sweden, the Anglo-French racist colonialism, the all-white Australia, the Jim Crow US, etc.? What's your point?




Name user 1 said:


> The title is somehow misunderstanding - because which state was downgraded in past?


Argentina, Uruguay and soon Portugal, Greece, Spain...


----------



## sebvill

Name user 1 said:


> and how about institutional racism in Latin america countries?


Not more than European institutionalized xenophobia and racism. We inherit all the bad things.


----------



## Name user 1

sebvill said:


> Not more than European institutionalized xenophobia and racism. We inherit all the bad things.


how about shocking inequality and lack of access to university education for all classes in Latin America?


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## Motul

^^That's improving at a great rate.


----------



## Godius

You're right about the rising xenophobia and racism in Europe, especially in my country 'the Netherlands', it's shameful and it is getting worse day by day.


----------



## Name user 1

Godius said:


> You're right about the rising xenophobia and racism in Europe, especially in my country 'the Netherlands', it's shameful and it is getting worse by the day.


another question where is freedom of religion - mosques are allowed in the Netherlands right? but how about Latin American countries? can you build a mosque there and express your views?


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

Baleares said:


> Are you saying it to me?


I haven't been following your posts too much, but my post is definitively directed towards sebvill, geococcyx and Motul.

All three seem to disregard basic economic cycles and the fact that their countries were not too far from the situation where Spain currently is during the 1970s-1980s Latin American debt crisis and at that time Spanish companies were (and still are) one of the largest sources of FDI to the region.


----------



## Motul

How is Bulgaria doing? Last time I checked it was one of the least developed in Europe. What rate is it growing at? Is it closing up the enormous gap with the EU average? :?


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

Motul said:


> How is Bulgaria doing? Last time I checked it was one of the least developed in Europe. What rate is it growing at? Is it closing up the enormous gap with the EU average? :?


It is poor. Thanks for asking. Great way of avoiding the real issue. i.e. your inferiority complexes towards Spain.


----------



## Baleares

Name user 1 said:


> its nice to have some discussion - off course development its not only about GDP growth, but about sustainable development behind which is - economical, environmental and social development
> 
> apart from that I know some countries in Latin A. having some nice progress> such as Chile is prime example, otherwise Brazil is doing pretty good in diversification of its economy when comparing to 80's or 90's (now Brazil de facto dominate all Latin America)
> 
> don't now much about Peru or Bolivia (there are some separatists tendencies, but president is democratic and looking for consensus)
> 
> however Venezuela or Argentina are special cases both was well developed back in 50's but since then both stagnated in all fronts .. and what's worst now they try to cover it with nationalistic and inward looking protective polices (trade barriers..)



Well, about South American countries i can say there are three groups of different levels of society development.

The first is the most advanced, with less social inequalities and poverty but with incomes that dont reach the average of the developed countries. I can assume that Argentina, Chile and Uruguay are in that group. They are not developed yet but are the closer example of it in Latin America. 

The second group is formed by countries that are undergoing profound social and economic transformations in the last twenty years. Creating the prospect of a future similar to the first group. I can nominate Brazil, Peru, Colombia, Panama, Costa Rica and Mexico to that group. Maybe Ecuator too. 

In the third group perhaps, we have countries with major structural, cultural and social problems, that need to improve much over the decades to reach the level of development of the first two. Countries that in my opinion have developed much below the world average and because of that, drag down the latin american average development as well when you take as a whole. I can nominate many countries in that category, such as Guatemala,Guiana, Haiti, Nicarágua, Belize, Paraguay, Bolivia and so on. 

About Venezuela, is Interestingly, despite not being among the worst in Latin American Countries in several social areas in economic and political terms is still a very backward country, at least in those areas. So I think it is a special case to analize. 

About World, we have many different types and levels of development, that is really difficult to describe categories. But we can say that there are countries that're not only developed but also dictate development models such as the USA, Germany, UK, Canada or Japan. There Developed countries that have followed the above-mentioned models of these countries, like France, Spain or Australia and there are developed countries that got that achievement since few decades ago, and because of that, still have a long path to equate them to the central countries. Such as Spain, Portugal or Greece.

I'm not saying they are in the same category of developed countries. I believe that when a society reaches a high level of development, categorize it is no longer necessary, because what is left to resolve in that society are occasional problems such as drugs, life expectancy, income growth, maintenance of full employment, quality of natural environment, production of tecnology and science and so on.

So I do not categorize the developed countries. Also do not say that all of them are in the same stage of development, but I think categorize it is something unnecessary, because we know that all developed countries have achieved the minimum development standard in several areas to receive such recognition.


----------



## Motul

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> It is poor. Thanks for asking. Great way of avoiding the real issue. i.e. your inferiority complexes towards Spain.




There is certainly a colonizer/colonized psychological aspect which can't be denied, but it's certainly reverting under the current situation. Little by little people are seeing more "eye to eye" with Spain in particular, but also other developed countries, and viceversa..Those countries are also looking towards the region with a growing sense of respect.

People are returning by the plane-full and are suddenly realizing "Oh, wow, my country isn't that bad after all, there's plenty of opportunity here", which is truly a great thing. 

Of course, this is a tendency which is starting and will only keep growing and advancing.


----------



## Baleares

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> I haven't been following your posts too much, but my post is definitively directed towards sebvill, geococcyx and Motul.
> 
> All three seem to disregard basic economic cycles and the fact that their countries were not too far from the situation where Spain currently is during the 1970s-1980s Latin American debt crisis and at that time Spanish companies were (and still are) one of the largest sources of FDI to the region.


Well that is really complicated. It has nothing to do with the tematic of the thread, first of all because, as i said Spain will surpass the crisis before it make profound wounds in it's social development. As i said, development means much more than economic growth... Perhaps this crisis be an oportunity to Spain got much more developed after it ends up. Perhaps this crisis got really serious problems in the next spanish generation in terms of social wellbeing, public accounts and State of Welfare offered by their government. This scenario is very unlikely but can occurs if this crisis persists until 2020. 

What is desirable is that this economic crisis get overcome and it's causes get corrected at least until 2020. Otherwise, as I said, many future problems can end up affecting the quality of life of the next generation of Spaniards. But still so, i cannot see the possibility that Spain becomes underdeveloped and not even Portugal or Greece, mainly because of the European Union help in the case of the last two mentioned.

A prolonged european crisis is not desirable to anyone on the planet. Humanity is heading for a full development, when all countries will achieve a minimally decent level of development. It will still take time to occur, but signs of this can already be seen with improved quality of life for literally billions of people in the Emerging World, like the Brazilians, Chinese, Indians, Mexicans, Peruvians and Argentines who form a new global middle class . 


Today, the countries are connected in such a way that if you desire some evil to one of them, you'll be desiring evil to you own country. Maybe this can be only partially true nowadays, but much and much more it'll get be the reallity to all of us humans. Therefore wish not only Spain but all European countries getta overcome this crisis, but not only momentarily but walk toward cleaner financial systems and that the emerging countries achieve more weight on the world scale and so thus get able to reduce the glaring disparities that exist on our planet, where as millions of people line up in NY to buy a Iphone , millions more are lining up in Rwanda to ask for food.


----------



## geococcyx

Motul said:


> How is Bulgaria doing? Last time I checked it was one of the least developed in Europe. What rate is it growing at? Is it closing up the enormous gap with the EU average? :?


México, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay are richer than both Bulgaria and Romania, but you will never see europeans bash bulgaria or romania in SSC like they do with us always mentioning race, favelas, and other nastiness that we get. I wonder why? Eurosuperiority complex?


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

geococcyx said:


> México, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay are richer than both Bulgaria and Romania, but you will never see europeans bash bulgaria or romania in SSC like they do with us always mentioning race, favelas, and other nastiness that we get. I wonder why? Eurosuperiority complex?


Actually, you will see them bash Bulgaria and Romania, but again this is away from the point. Both countries grew tremendously between 2000 ans 2008 at average rates of 5-6-7% per year, but we still knew we are far behind the developed European economies. In your case, simply because Spain is going through a crisis, you right away start claiming the superiority of Mexico even though 2 decades ago you were in the exact same situation during the 1994 Tequila crisis and where one of the main sources of cash in the country were the FDI flows from Spain.


----------



## Baleares

geococcyx said:


> México, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay are richer than both Bulgaria and Romania, but you will never see europeans bash bulgaria or romania in SSC like they do with us always mentioning race, favelas, and other nastiness that we get. I wonder why? Eurosuperiority complex?


I wonder in what that kind of comment will make you feel good. That assumption not only dont make sense as its actually a shame. Those countries are in the same category of Developing Countries, what means that they have a lot of work to do to get real and decent standard of living to their own people. It means that doesnt matter what HDI says, all of them need to improve in a range of factors. 

What we need to do is not to point ours problems to each other, but talk about solutions for them.


----------



## pobre diablo

Motul said:


> How is Bulgaria doing? Last time I checked it was one of the least developed in Europe. What rate is it growing at? Is it closing up the enormous gap with the EU average? :?


Being poor in Europe is much different than being poor anywhere else. Thanks for asking.


----------



## Motul

How so?


----------



## Baleares

You cannot confuse Europe and Development. Actually, you cannot think that Europe has the same standard of development because Europe is not a country. It is a continent, such as America or Asia. 

In both cases the poor have a lack of important resources that are very important in the society that they are inserted. So you cannot assume that being poor in US is better than being poor in Latin America, because poor people always have a lack of important resources to their lives wherever they are.


----------



## koolio

Godius said:


> You're right about the rising xenophobia and racism in Europe, especially in my country 'the Netherlands', it's shameful and it is getting worse day by day.



Why did you put quotation marks around the Netherlands?


----------



## Motul

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> Actually, you will see them bash Bulgaria and Romania, but again this is away from the point. Both countries grew tremendously between 2000 ans 2008 at average rates of 5-6-7% per year, but we still knew we are far behind the developed European economies. In your case, simply because Spain is going through a crisis, you right away start claiming the superiority of Mexico even though 2 decades ago you were in the exact same situation during the 1994 Tequila crisis and where one of the main sources of cash in the country were the FDI flows from Spain.



Spain's main savior right now is it's companies assets in Latam.. So everything goes around.


----------



## BaiatuVesel

geococcyx said:


> México, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay are richer than both Bulgaria and Romania, but you will never see europeans bash bulgaria or romania in SSC like they do with us always mentioning race, favelas, and other nastiness that we get. I wonder why? Eurosuperiority complex?


Actually Mexico , Argentina and Chille have the same level of economic and social development of Bulgaria /Romania . Upper-middle income , with almost same economic results , resources (per capita) , problems with inequality , gdp per capita and even they way that they are seen by the citizens of the developed club : romanians ,bulgarians and balkans are seen in West Europe like mexicans in the US :lol:


----------



## deckard_6

I'm from Spain and I'm very happy that South America is on its way towards development, I really don't get the point of this stupid discussion going on here. The saying "mal de muchos consuelo de tontos" fits perfectly in the behavior of some forumers (from both Spain and South America) wasting their time in this thread.


----------



## Jonesy55

geococcyx said:


> México, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay are richer than both Bulgaria and Romania, but you will never see europeans bash bulgaria or romania in SSC like they do with us always mentioning race, favelas, and other nastiness that we get. I wonder why? Eurosuperiority complex?


You clearly need to read the European section of the forum more often if you genuinely believe that. :laugh:


----------



## manrush

geococcyx said:


> México, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay are richer than both Bulgaria and Romania, but you will never see europeans bash bulgaria or romania in SSC like they do with us always mentioning race, favelas, and other nastiness that we get. I wonder why? Eurosuperiority complex?


Yep, this is definitely a Latin American inferiority complex/pity parade. So much for not caring about Europe, eh? :lol:


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

I love those condescending remarks by hard-core left-wingers encastled in some pretentious neighbourhood in North America or Europe.

Those are the people who always have tried to hold Latin America (and other developing/underdeveloped regions) back, with all their trade unions, "green" ideology, and other similar and hateful lobbies. Now, the game is over: they'll need to go back to work as their governments will not able to support their idleness anymore. Competition is knocking on the door.


----------



## BaiatuVesel

Yuri S Andrade said:


> I love those condescending remarks by hard-core left-wingers encastled in some pretentious neighbourhood in North America or Europe.
> 
> Those are the people who always have tried to hold Latin America (and other developing/underdeveloped regions) back, with all their trade unions, "green" ideology, and other similar and hateful lobbies. Now, the game is over: they'll need to go back to work as their governments will not able to support their idleness anymore. Competition is knocking on the door.


Competition between who and who ?


----------



## daniel220776

Name user 1 said:


> you are perhaps totally deluded guy. EU is leader in developing policies that protect environment and social prosperity of people in the world


Mmm, that is the oficial propaganda but is not exactly like that. 

One word: Doha


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Name user 1 said:


> you are perhaps totally deluded guy. EU is leader in developing policies that protect environment and social prosperity of people in the world


Well, the main goals of the XIX century imperialism was to erradicate slavery and bring the "benefits of civilization" to the natives. New century, new neologisms, but they still see themselves as "superior", owning the "best values".




marcopaulo said:


> dammit, i just heard from a person living in mexico, that the avarage labour worker earns 1 dollar a day in mexico, is this true??? :mad2: i cant believe this, if that is true, how can latinamerica even be considered a 'developing' territory? hno: f**king predators! paying 1 dollar to a human being that bursts his back everyday to get your dirty work done!! STOP TREATING PEOPLE AS F**KING SLAVES!!! this kind of shameless behaviour should have ended more than 50 years ago! :bash: i'm sorry if i offended anybody here, was not my intention, but this thought is making me angrier every second. what if these poor workers were to all join up and get themselves some weapons and head off to parliement with intent to kill and destroy? would you blame them? how do you think a person should feel when he is downgraded below human standards?? if this 1 dollar story were true (i'm still having a hard time believing), then sure, mexico should be very rich and developed, paying a worker 1 dollar a day! hno:


I can't believe you can believe in a crap like that with all the information easy available on the internet.


----------



## Jonesy55

http://www.sat.gob.mx/sitio_interne...yente/informacion_frecuente/salarios_minimos/

Minimum wage in Mexico is MXP 59.08 - 62.33 per day depending on the state, which is around US$4.50-4.80, not much at all but 4.5-4.8x better than $1!

I don't know how many only earn that minimum or how well enforced it is though. :dunno:

It also doesn't say how many hours work that is for, 1 hour might not be too bad, 18 hours labour for that amount would suck!


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Also "minimum wage" is way different from "average wage". According to Marco, US$ 1.00 is the "average". In Brazil, for instance, the average wage is about R$ 1,800.00/month while the minimum wage is R$ 620.00. Here, it's not only strictly enforced by the authorities, but also by the market. No one would work for less than that these days.


----------



## Jonesy55

Yes, though average wage for a 'labourer' as was mentioned in that post might be nearer to minimum wage than to the overall average, unskilled workers always get less than professionals and skilled workers...


----------



## Motul

Average wage in Mexico is about $600. Its quite low, but it's also a cheap country to live in.


----------



## Name user 1

daniel220776 said:


> Mmm, that is the oficial propaganda but is not exactly like that.
> 
> One word: Doha


 EU in 2006 ( part of Doha negotiation) was ready to abolish agricultural trade barriers if developing counties abolished own trade barriers on services. 

-unfortunately India, Brazil and others countries opposed dismantling its own trade barriers yet demanded EU to dismiss own trade barriers on agricultural products. That doesn't look fair to me. 

-btw Brazil, Argentina... all Latin America countries (except Chile) are the most trade protectionist countries in the World - that much for Latin America countries intentions


----------



## Motul

Peru, Colombia and Mexico have FTA's with atleast a dozen countries each.. Including USA and Europe.


----------



## geococcyx

marcopaulo said:


> dammit, i just heard from a person living in mexico, that the avarage labour worker earns 1 dollar a day in mexico, is this true??? :mad2: i cant believe this, if that is true, how can latinamerica even be considered a 'developing' territory? hno: f**king predators! paying 1 dollar to a human being that bursts his back everyday to get your dirty work done!! STOP TREATING PEOPLE AS F**KING SLAVES!!! this kind of shameless behaviour should have ended more than 50 years ago! :bash: i'm sorry if i offended anybody here, was not my intention, but this thought is making me angrier every second. what if these poor workers were to all join up and get themselves some weapons and head off to parliement with intent to kill and destroy? would you blame them? how do you think a person should feel when he is downgraded below human standards?? if this 1 dollar story were true (i'm still having a hard time believing), then sure, mexico should be very rich and developed, paying a worker 1 dollar a day! hno:


Either you are trolling or lying or they lied to you. In any case it is a LIE.

*Percentage population living on less than $1.25 per day 2009*










http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...iving_on_less_than_$1.25_per_day_2009.svg.png


----------



## marcopaulo

I can't believe you can believe in a crap like that with all the information easy available on the internet.[/QUOTE said:


> well, when it's a mexican person who is living in mexico, that tells this to me, then one has to question if this is true or not :nuts:


----------



## Name user 1

On average Latin America has highest trade barriers in the world and yet some on SSC going to lecture EU :lol:


----------



## marcopaulo

geococcyx said:


> Either you are trolling or lying or they lied to you. In any case it is a LIE.
> 
> *Percentage population living on less than $1.25 per day 2009*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...iving_on_less_than_$1.25_per_day_2009.svg.png


no, not trolling. so ok, if you say so.


----------



## Jonesy55

Name user 1 said:


> EU in 2006 ( part of Doha negotiation) was ready to abolish agricultural trade barriers if developing counties abolished own trade barriers on services.
> 
> -unfortunately India, Brazil and others countries opposed dismantling its own trade barriers yet demanded EU to dismiss own trade barriers on agricultural products. That doesn't look fair to me.
> 
> -btw Brazil, Argentina... all Latin America countries (except Chile) are the most trade protectionist countries in the World - that much for Latin America countries intentions


Clearly these things need to be reciprocal, it would be economic suicide to abolish all tariffs and barriers on imports from a country that maintains significant tariffs and other barriers against our exports.

Hopefully trade liberalisation will continue, LatAm seems to be scaling down its traditional protectionism and the EU is continuing to negotiate and implement more and more FTAs, including the recent one with South Korea which will be the largest global FTA to date in terms of trade flows.


----------



## Motul

Name user 1 said:


> On average Latin America has highest trade barriers in the world and yet some on SSC going to lecture EU :lol:



That's because latam has countries such as Venezuela, Argentina and Brazil, which are protectionist and oppose free trade.. But it also has countries that are very open, like the ones I mentioned before, which account for nearly 50% of the regional GDP.


----------



## geococcyx

Jonesy55 said:


> http://www.sat.gob.mx/sitio_interne...yente/informacion_frecuente/salarios_minimos/
> 
> Minimum wage in Mexico is MXP 59.08 - 62.33 per day depending on the state, which is around US$4.50-4.80, not much at all but 4.5-4.8x better than $1!
> 
> I don't know how many only earn that minimum or how well enforced it is though. :dunno:
> 
> It also doesn't say how many hours work that is for, 1 hour might not be too bad, 18 hours labour for that amount would suck!


The minimun wage in México has NOTHING to do with being a minimun income; rather, it is related to the basic food basket and it is tied to the inflation, which is very low for being a developing country. In any case, no one earns minium wage in México.



marcopaulo said:


> no, not trolling. so ok, if you say so.


No, it is not what I say. It is the reality verifiable by the statistics and data. So before you post your lies and trolling, check out the information.


----------



## Jonesy55

geococcyx said:


> The minimun wage in México has NOTHING to do with being a minimun income; rather, it is related to the basic food basket and it is tied to the inflation, which is very low for being a developing country. In any case, no one earns minium wage in México.


Ok, I didn't know that, it seems somewhat pointless to have a minimum wage that nobody earns and is unrelated to the labour market but never mind...

I also found this which sets out minimums by job type, they are all higher than the minimum wage that isn't really a minimum wage I quoted previously. Are these more typical?

http://www.wageindicator.org/main/minimum-wages/mexico

http://www.wageindicator.org/main/minimum-wages/mexico/minimum-wage-faqs


----------



## geococcyx

Why are europeans DEFLECTING the question by talking about Latin América? In latin américa, unlike europe, we don´t have economic crisis and we are talking about when we are going to become developed, not developing, like it might happen with several european countries.


----------



## Name user 1

geococcyx said:


> Why are europeans DEFLECTING the question by talking about Latin América? In latin américa, unlike europe, we don´t have economic crisis and we are talking about when we are going to become developed, not developing, like it might happen with several european countries.


REAL economic crisis is when 6 - 20 % of own population living on less than $1.25 per day. The worst crisis in Greece is nothing to these problems get your head around that!


----------



## Jonesy55

:lol: Chill out Geococcyx, we can talk about each other's countries here, no need to be so defensive...

If we want to see which 'developed' countries may become 'developing' then we need to establish what the conditions are in developing countries to know whether it is likely or not that those conditions will be replicated in countries currently considered 'developed'.


----------



## geococcyx

Jonesy55 said:


> Ok, I didn't know that, it seems somewhat pointless to have a minimum wage that nobody earns and is unrelated to the labour market but never mind...
> 
> I also found this which sets out minimums by job type, they are all higher than the minimum wage that isn't really a minimum wage I quoted previously. Are these more typical?
> 
> http://www.wageindicator.org/main/minimum-wages/mexico
> 
> http://www.wageindicator.org/main/minimum-wages/mexico/minimum-wage-faqs


I like exchanging viewpoints with you, because although we disagree a lot, you make your points based on data and not like other forumers saying, ´I was told´ or just making lies.

Those wages you post, are more realistic, but I would say a good general rule would be to multiply them by two; that would be a more realistic minimum wage. 

I don´t believe in minimum wages and I think they should be abolished in México.

In any case, this table clearly shows that no one in méxico earns minimum wage and only 10% earn around two. More than 60% of mexicans earn at least 3 minimum wages or more.


----------



## Motul

Name user 1 said:


> REAL economic crisis is when 6 - 20 % of own population living on less than $1.25 per day



You would have to look at what those $1,25 represents in PPP. Latin America is cheap, so maybe that amount of money represents alot more than in other places.


----------



## Jonesy55

Motul said:


> You would have to look at what those $1,25 represents in PPP. Latin America is cheap, so maybe that amount of money represents alot more than in other places.


True, it will certainly buy more than in most of Europe or North America or Australia or Japan but even in the cheapest place on earth $1.25 isn't going to buy much! How many days at $1.25 per day will it take to buy a car or apartment?


----------



## Motul

Car or apt is another story, but maybe one would be able to get by with the basic: food and shelter.


----------



## Name user 1

Motul said:


> You would have to look at what those $1,25 represents in PPP. Latin America is cheap, so maybe that amount of money represents alot more than in other places.


that is certainly true yet consumer electronics are much more expensive in Latin America because these extra tax earnings are placed to subsidy cheap commodities (foodstuff...). In one way its right for poor but from other side this is only short term solution.


----------



## Jonesy55

geococcyx said:


> I like exchanging viewpoints with you, because although we disagree a lot, you make your points based on data and not like other forumers saying, ´I was told´ or just making lies.
> 
> Those wages you post, are more realistic, but I would say a good general rule would be to multiply them by two; that would be a more realistic minimum wage.
> 
> I don´t believe in minimum wages and I think they should be abolished in México.
> 
> In any case, this table clearly shows that no one in méxico earns minimum wage and only 10% earn around two. More than 60% of mexicans earn at least 3 minimum wages or more.


Ok, thanks. So it seems that the minimum wage in Mexico is set ridiculously low.

According to your chart we can say that around 60% of workers in Mexico earn MXP 180 or more per day while 40% earn less than MXP 180 per day and only 10% earn less than MXP 120?


----------



## geococcyx

Name user 1 said:


> REAL economic crisis is when 6 - 20 % of own population living on less than $1.25 per day. The worst crisis in Greece is nothing to these problems get your head around that!


What country are you from?



Name user 1 said:


> On average Latin America has highest trade barriers in the world and yet some on SSC going to lecture EU :lol:


This has to be a JOKE when the EU es the most anti free trade, protectionist and trade barrier bloc. Chile, México and Perú are more liberal and open to the world than ANY european country. LOL.

Among the biggest economies of the world, México is the most open and liberal to trade:



> _*Exports plus imports as a percentage of GDP indicate the degree of openness of an economy; in the case of Mexico, this percentage was 58.6% in 2010. *The equivalent values within parenthesis for the largest economies in the world are the following: Russia (41.9%), Canada (51.7%), US (21.6%),China (47.9%), Brazil (18.5%), Australia (33.3%),and India (34.3%)2. Therefore, among the largest economies, Mexico is the most open economy in the world and we estimate it will keep opening even more.* We estimate that Mexico may reach 69% of GDP for exports plus imports in 2012 and close to 85% in 2017.*_​


Financial Times

And among medium sized economies, Perú and Chile can teach the world what it means to be open and liberal.



Jonesy55 said:


> If we want to see which 'developed' countries may become 'developing' then we need to establish what the conditions are in developing countries to know whether it is likely or not that those conditions will be replicated in countries currently considered 'developed'.


Yea, you´re actually right.


----------



## Jonesy55

^^ I'm not sure that exports+imports as % of GDP is a great indicator. The bigger an economy is the more variety it can produce itself so it needs to import less and it also needs to export less because domestic demand is so big it can absorb production... 

If you look at the EU as a whole for example the figure is only 25% or so, yet individual EU countries are all much higher than that..

Likewise if we took 'LatAm' as a whole, trade outside the region would be less as a % of LatAm GDP than trade is as a % of the GDP of Colombia or Brazil or Argentina or Mexico alone.


----------



## Name user 1

geococcyx said:


> What country are you from? This has to be a JOKE when the EU es the most anti free trade, protectionist and trade barrier bloc. Chile, México and Perú are more liberal and open to the world than ANY european country. LOL.
> Among the biggest economies of the world, México is the most open and liberal to trade:
> And among medium sized economies, Perú and Chile can teach the world what it means to be open and liberal.


actually Chile as the most open country in Latin America is under average of trade to gdp ratio (opennes) of the EU 

-that much for you fantasies :lol: you Joker 

see hereand post there Chile, Slovakia, Czech republic, South Korea, Peru, Brazil in comparison to EU

actually my country is the most liberalised and open market in the World.

-look at stats and you will see!


----------



## BaiatuVesel

Jonesy55 said:


> Ok, thanks. So it seems that the minimum wage in Mexico is set ridiculously low.


In Moldova the minimum wage is 72 EURO /month hno:


----------



## Motul

Chile, yes.. But what model do you think Colombia and Peru follow? Mexico still needs to work on it's privatization of the inefficient oil company, but it's on a good track too.


----------



## Jonesy55

EU free-trade agreements.


----------



## geococcyx

Jonesy55 said:


> Ok, thanks. So it seems that the minimum wage in Mexico is set ridiculously low.


It is and there are two reasons for that: one, is we are a ridiculously cheap country to live in and the other is that the mexican government applied a wage ´contention´ to limit wage increases similar to what germany did to its wages; for two reasons, to reduce inflation even more and to become more competitive and both targets have been achieved. :cheers:


Jonesy55 said:


> According to your chart we can say that around 60% of workers in Mexico earn MXP 180 or more per day while 40% earn less than MXP 180 per day and only 10% earn less than MXP 120?


Yeah, that seems reasonable.


----------



## Motul

No agreement between U.S and EU?


----------



## Name user 1

geococcyx said:


> ...


you know back to my answer above do some research before stating something otherwise people would think about you that you are :lol:


----------



## geococcyx

Name user 1 said:


> actually Chile as the most open country in Latin America is under average of trade to gdp ratio (opennes) of the EU
> 
> -that much for you fantasies :lol: you Joker
> 
> see hereand post there Chile, Slovakia, Czech republic, South Korea, Peru, Brazil in comparison to EU
> 
> actually my country is the most liberalised and open market in the World.
> 
> -look at stats and you will see!


Why don´t you want to say what country are you from? Are you hiding something or are ashamed?

Your Czech Republic and Slovakia do all their trade with the EU. In order to get a better picture, you would have to get the data for the EU. And not in constant dollars, like your graph, but in current ones.

And second, it is not me who said that México is the most open and liberal to trade, but HSBC and informed by the Financial Times.


----------



## Motul

Mexico just needs to work on Pemex to be a truly liberal country... kay:


----------



## Jonesy55

geococcyx said:


> Your Czech Republic and Slovakia do all their trade with the EU. In order to get a better picture, you would have to get the data for the EU.


Ok, if we exclude trade with other NAFTA countries for Mexico.


----------



## manrush

Motul said:


> Mexico just needs to work on Pemex to be a truly liberal country... kay:


I would say that Gazprom is the best model to follow.


----------



## geococcyx

Jonesy55 said:


> Ok, if we exclude trade with other NAFTA countries for Mexico.


I don´t know how to say this without sounding trollish or flame bait like atomicus says, but eu countries are not really independent. The eu members are basically a quasi supranational country or something -they are almost like USA states trading with each other, so the comparison is difficult that is why its better to take the whole eu or eurozone-, while México, USA and Canadá are complete independet countries. 

In any case, i´m tired and getting rusty with my arguments. I will pick up the debate as soon as i´m fresh and can paint the reality some forumers with superiority complex don´t like.
______________________________________

There is no country on earth that has more trade agreements than chile, which has access to 90% of the worlds gdp in trade agreements.









http://blogs.ellitoral.com/empresariosyempresas/files/2009/04/graf-01-chile.jpg

Later eurofriends.


----------



## Jonesy55

geococcyx said:


> eu countries are not really independent. The eu members are basically a quasi supranational country or something.


They are in a supranational union, but that doesn't mean they are not separate countries.


----------



## Name user 1

geococcyx said:


> In order to get a better picture, you would have to get the data for the EU. And not in constant dollars, like your graph, but in current ones.
> 
> And second, it is not me who said that México is the most open and liberal to trade, but HSBC and informed by the Financial Times.


Im presenting you date for EU, Czech, Slovakia, Mexico, Chile and Brazil - btw Im one from those 5 countries











conclusion - still EU on weighted average has in (current US$) higher trade openness than Chile or Mexico let alone Mercosur


----------



## Baleares

Name user 1 said:


> EU in 2006 ( part of Doha negotiation) was ready to abolish agricultural trade barriers if developing counties abolished own trade barriers on services.
> 
> -unfortunately India, Brazil and others countries opposed dismantling its own trade barriers yet demanded EU to dismiss own trade barriers on agricultural products. That doesn't look fair to me.
> 
> -btw Brazil, Argentina... all Latin America countries (except Chile) are the most trade protectionist countries in the World - that much for Latin America countries intentions


What is not fair is to say that Brazil or Argentina and ALL the latin American countries are most protectionist than EU or US. They are AS protectionist as EU or US. 











Trade agreements by itselves, cannot say what country is or not free to trade. USA has a very great number of FTA but is in fact, a protectionist country.


----------



## marcopaulo

geococcyx said:


> The minimun wage in México has NOTHING to do with being a minimun income; rather, it is related to the basic food basket and it is tied to the inflation, which is very low for being a developing country. In any case, no one earns minium wage in México.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it is not what I say. It is the reality verifiable by the statistics and data. So before you post your lies and trolling, check out the information.


'MY' lies?? excuse me, but i dont live in mexico, and when a person living in mexico tells me stuff like 'workers earn 1 dollar a day', what do you expect me to imagine? :nuts: so now you accuse me of trolling? ok, i respect your opinion.


----------



## sebvill

Verified it before entering here and doing some ridiculous show.

Btw, Peru has a lower average tariff than Chile, which has already a very low one.

Peru has FTA with USA, China, Mexico, Canada, Japan, Thailand, EU, South America, Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Central America.

And in process with South Korea, Turkey and India.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Exactly! And than Portuguese forumers got angry with the poor Samantha who wanted to know "where Portugl is"...


----------



## Name user 1

some people has misconception what FTA means - basically if country abolish trade barriers with other country on ONE commodity such as apple and in exchange other country abolish trade barrier on coal trade then those countries are in FTA agreement. 

However that doesn't define openness of economy. why? because others types of commodities and product, services between these 2 countries are still excluded from FTA.

in conclusion only average of trade to gdp ratio is reasonable way how to measure openness of national economy


----------



## Jonesy55

But then smaller economies will always 'win' simply because they need to trade more as their internal production is less diversified..


----------



## Atomicus

geococcyx said:


> [...]So before you post your lies and trolling, check out the information.





geococcyx said:


> [...]and not like other forumers saying, ´I was told´ or just making lies.


It's so rich and ironical of you to turn so hostile and complain about the lack of back ups from a forumer in spite of that you've done so more often than not too. At least he did so while just raising a question and not while stating anything as a permanent fact out of his _culete_.

As for instance when you did say here that the differences of gab between Spain and LATAM started when Spain joined the EU without back it up that claim with anything and while ignoring that Spain in 1986 was already developed and that actually the gap started earlier as you can read here.

Or when you claimed in this post and this one (read second paragraph) that Spain got rich out of tourism, a construction buble and EU funds alone without backing up that claim with the amount of GDP added from those sectors and while ignoring the fact that Spain actually started to become rich way earlier ('60, '70, '80) than when the construction buble took place (which is btw a "recent" thing that started in the nineties when Spain was already a very developed nation) or while ignoring facts like this (scroll down to see the ranking) or this or this that clearly proves that Spain got rich also due a way bigger amount of facts than just tourism, a construction buble or EU funds.

Or when you stated here that Spain has no relevance or cares about Spain despite that we've been a huge big investor in LATAM (in fact during the nineties we were the second biggest investor second only to the USA as you can read in this extensive and well documented research) and still today since our companies invest and employ a lot of people there.

Even worse, when you claimed I said something I did not here, without bringing out quotes or proofs to back it up. This is even worse than the previous examples as not only you display ignorance but also your clear trolling agenda. 

My English is horrible but I really hope that you are not really like that and that it's just you and your lack of reading skills in English.



geococcyx said:


> [...]Regarding the investments, they came becos it was convenient for them, not because of charity.


You seem to completely ignore or miss the point some of us try to make you understand by bringing out the Spanish investments in LATAM. Why we pointed out this is not because we want to paint Spain as a charity paradise upon LATAM (if we had had that intention we would have posted information regarding the money common people usually give to LATAM when you guys have natural disasters and that stuff, which is irrelevant now), why we pointed out the Spanish investments in LATAM and funds transfers is to debate you :

1-Your derogatory speech about Spanish crisis saying stuff like that we have a dark future because of it (you said that here) despite that LATAM was in a similar situation not so long ago, and when supposedly you aknowledge that LATAM however got a nice future ahead in spite of the crisis you had in the past. 
Spain could follow then the same path, even more if we take into account that Spain is already a rich and very developed nation that has the help not only from the FMI but from the EU directly.

Your attitude even turns out more unfair if we take into account that Spain contributed a lot throught the FMI to help LATAM when you were in crisis as you can read here (read chapter one)



> [...]the increase in Spanish FDI has been one of the key elements behind the recovery of the Latin American
> economy after the “lost decade” of the 1980s


2-You constant attempts to paint Spain as a country that have no bussiness nor had it despite that we've been a huge big investor in LATAM. When you invest you do it because you expect to get a revenue from that, it's obvious not due charity, but while doing those investments to get a profit you are also creating jobs and giving funding.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yuri S Andrade said:


> Argentina, Uruguay and soon Portugal, Greece, *Spain*...


Well, good luck with your "forecast" pal. For now, Spain has a HDI of 0.878 as you can read here which means we has it very high. I don't think this will change much because of a recession of a year and a half that came mainly because of the austerity measures scenario that are here supposedly to fix the debt issue to a certain stent. Just take into account Spain was recovering alrdeady in 2011 if you take into account the growth till the summer and that we actually lowered the unemployment from April to the day the Greek thingy messed things up again by the end of the year. You can read a report of that here. So it's not that we are a dead horse or something.

I guess once you see your wishes have no chance to become true you'll suddenly change your speech and say the HDI Index is a joke despite that you seem to care about here as I can read here from you.


----------



## geococcyx

^ you are right, atomicus. I'm guilty of posting -sometimes- opinions about Spain without the hard facts or sometimes with facts that are wrong or not completely accurate. Don't worry, I'll improve on that. 



Jonesy55 said:


> They are in a supranational union, but that doesn't mean they are not separate countries.


Well, that depends how you define it. I don't consider them indepedente countries. For example, can Portugal negotiate free trade agreementes independently? The EU sets a lot of the economic policy of the european union´s country members. And not only that, but now Germany is dictating the deflationary and budget cuts to the P.I.G.S. I´m sure southern european countries -or at least some- would prefer a different policy to get out of the crisis, but they don´t have that option.

If I am wrong, correct me.


----------



## Baleares

Name user 1 said:


> some people has misconception what FTA means - basically if country abolish trade barriers with other country on ONE commodity such as apple and in exchange other country abolish trade barrier on coal trade then those countries are in FTA agreement.
> 
> However that doesn't define openness of economy. why? because others types of commodities and product, services between these 2 countries are still excluded from FTA.
> 
> in conclusion only average of trade to gdp ratio is reasonable way how to measure openness of national economy


:applause:


----------



## Baleares

Jonesy55 said:


> But then smaller economies will always 'win' simply because they need to trade more as their internal production is less diversified..


Very correct at all. Great economies are more closed than small ones. Just compare US, China and Brazil to Peru, Chile and Portugal, for example. 

Actually, people needs to know that liberalism is not only good things. It may serve a country but may be a disaster to another.


----------



## Baleares

Atomicus said:


> I guess once you see your wishes have no chance to become true you'll suddenly change your speech and say the HDI Index is a joke despite that you seem to care about here as I can read here from you.



Not saying that Spain is not developed, but you need to pay attention to the fact that HDI does not define which countries are developed.


----------



## sebvill

Baleares said:


> Very correct at all. Great economies are more closed than small ones. Just compare US, China and Brazil to Peru, Chile and Portugal, for example.
> 
> Actually, people needs to know that liberalism is not only good things. It may serve a country but may be a disaster to another.


It serves all countries if all of them apply it. But better of, it serves people, consumers, resources allocation, productivity, government budget and development.

Btw, FTA signed by countries like Chile or Peru with the USA or EU doesnt involved just one or two products, but usually is more than 80% of the trade between the 2 blocks. And FTA are also much more complex than just trade, it involves many other characteristics of the economy such as Cooperation between different public instances, Financial Transparency, Intelectual Properties, etc.


----------



## Name user 1

You are right, small incremental steps taken one a time is the right direction toward liberalism for every economy 

still I pointed out that EU countries are much more trade open than LA countries 

unfortunately for EU some structural problems which are unique to the EU super-national model remain to be solved


----------



## Baleares

Name user 1 said:


> You are right, small incremental steps taken one a time is the right direction toward liberalism for every economy
> 
> still I pointed out that EU countries are much more trade open than LA countries
> 
> unfortunately for EU some structural problems which are unique to the EU super-national model remain to be solved


I dont agree. You cannot require that countries that are not on the same level of development of the European Union, also have the same level of free trade. The European Union is more open in areas such as industry just because it is more developed. This allows their industry, for example, to compete with any industry in the world. On the other hand, in areas where it is NOT competitive, the EU is very protective, as the agricultural area, in which Mercosul is a superpower.

As to economic liberalism, it does not serve the same way for all countries. Countries with small economies, which need not generate large supply chains in order to provide jobs to its population, such as Peru and Chile, have a tendency to give much better in FTAs than Brazil or China for example.


----------



## Name user 1

Baleares said:


> On the other hand, in areas where it is NOT competitive, the EU is very protective, as the agricultural area, in which Mercosul is a superpower.


will be nice if you can back you claim with some hard facts - provide link to compare trade barriers on agricultural commodities/product between Mercosul and EU


----------



## Baleares

The point is not to compare. You are defending at all costs economic liberalism, which proved to be faulty during the global crisis. The truth is that there should be any barriers in the European Union, since it is one of the foundations of liberalism. The fact that barriers exist, prove that no economic policy is foolproof. And proof that economic liberalism does not work for all countries in the same way and does not work in all areas of the economy.


It basically depends on:

- Level of development of the country in question;
- Level of development of the productive area to be "free trade";
- Purchasing power of the internal market;
- Level of internal unemployment;
- What economic sectors of the country in question is able to compete worldwide.

Thus, there aren't protectionist and liberal countries. There are levels of protectionism and levels of liberalism, depending on the area of which you are talking about. Brazil is protectionist in fields such as automobile industry, for example. But is liberal in terms of financial market and relatively liberal in civil aviation market. In turn, the U.S. is liberal with its auto market but extremely protective with its military aviation market.

And it also works for all countries in the world with the exception of those taking exaggerated risks for themselves. In my opinion, very liberal countries end up taking huge risks to their long-term economies. Just as excessively protectionist countries take huge risks to their economies in the long term as well.


----------



## Atomicus

Baleares said:


> Not saying that Spain is not developed, but you need to pay attention to the fact that HDI does not define which countries are developed.


Well, since someone seemed to be interested at how certain countries will evolve in the HDI index, I was just pointing out that regarding that Spain ranks very high. 

On the other hand you are free here to provide any better research than the HDI index and enlight us instead talking about what is a fact and what it isn't without backing it up with anything.


----------



## Baleares

Atomicus said:


> Well, since someone seemed to be interested at how certain countries will evolve in the HDI index, I was just pointing out that regarding that Spain ranks very high.
> 
> On the other hand you are free here to provide any better research than the HDI index and enlight us instead talking about what is a fact and what it isn't without backing it up with anything.


Don't worry about Spain. As i said the probability that the current world crisis affect the quality of life in Spanish in such way that you guys start to live like the Latin Americans in terms of quality of life is extremely low. That would only happen if the crisis get prolonged for more than twenty years at least.

Yet it is extremely important not only for Spain but for the European block and North America, not only beat the current financial crisis but to address its causes, so it will not happen again.


----------



## sebvill

No es que España vaya a retroceder, solo estará estancada por unos años, mientras que Sudamérica avanzará fuertemente (excepto algunos casos específicos), cortando la brecha que hay hacia los dos lados del Atlántico, aunque Latinoamérica está cada vez más volcada hacia el Pacífico.


----------



## Atomicus

sebvill said:


> No es que España vaya a retroceder, solo estará estancada por unos años, mientras que Sudamérica avanzará fuertemente (excepto algunos casos específicos), cortando la brecha que hay hacia los dos lados del Atlántico, aunque Latinoamérica está cada vez más volcada hacia el Pacífico.


Non tutti parlano italiano. Si prega di parlare in inglese.* :troll:*


----------



## Copperknickers

Atomicus said:


> Non tutti parlano italiano. Si prega di parlare in inglese.* :troll:*


He's speaking Spanish mate.


----------



## Motul

Copperknickers said:


> He's speaking Spanish mate.


Trust me, he knows


----------



## pesto

sebvill said:


> No es que España vaya a retroceder, solo estará estancada por unos años, mientras que Sudamérica avanzará fuertemente (excepto algunos casos específicos), cortando la brecha que hay hacia los dos lados del Atlántico, aunque Latinoamérica está cada vez más volcada hacia el Pacífico.


Actually, Spain HAS shown negative growth for some quarters and more are predicted. The current government has indicated a need to undo the institutions and programs of the prior one before economic traction is reached. 

This is what development is about. It isn't just a few years of growth fueled by lax lending but without productivity and institional improvement. Latin Americans should be especially cognizant of this given the history of failed develolpment policies for 100 years now. It doesn't come from pumping money into the economy, useless government hiring, etc. What comes from that is inflation and capital flight, followed by another try a decade later.


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## sebvill

I know the Spanish situation is complicated. But in terms of development I dont think they are gonna suffer severe recoil although, as Baleares said, the crisis goes on for a decade or more. I think that mostly because the Spanish population has a very acceptable level of education, so it will be easy for this generation to recover the lost time. However, if the next generation doesnt get the same education opportunities, then there will be a severe problem for development.





BTW, I wrote in_ Castellano _because I think my previous post only concerned _Castellano_ speakers (and portuguese speakers, but they understand our language anyway).


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## VECTROTALENZIS

I don't think that any developed country is going to downgrade to a developing country in the short-term. However there is a risk that some countries may downgrade in the long-term, say 20 years from now, and those that have that risk are mainly the southern European countries of Portugal and Greece, and a slight warning to Spain and Italy.

Here is the GDP per capita PPP list zoomed in were the threshhold for between developed and developing countries is, the countries above the line are developed countries.
See how close Portugal and Greece are.


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## megacity30

^^ Poland, Hungary, Russia, Lithuania and Croatia can also now be considered to be socio-economically developed countries as their GDP (PPP) per capita exceeded $20000 last year, and inequality-adjusted HDI is very high.

How come Russia is not in your list at above US$17900?

reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


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## ProdayuSlona

megacity30 said:


> ^^ Poland, Hungary, Russia, Lithuania and Croatia can also now be considered to be socio-economically developed countries as their GDP (PPP) per capita exceeded $20000 last year, and inequality-adjusted HDI is very high.
> 
> How come Russia is not in your list at above US$17900?
> 
> reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


Possibly because he had an outdated list?


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## Hed_Kandi

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> I don't think that any developed country is going to downgrade to a developing country in the short-term. However there is a risk that some countries may downgrade in the long-term, say 20 years from now, and those that have that risk are mainly the southern European countries of Portugal and Greece, and a slight warning to Spain and Italy.
> 
> Here is the GDP per capita PPP list zoomed in were the threshhold for between developed and developing countries is, the countries above the line are developed countries.
> See how close Portugal and Greece are.


I wouldn't be using per capita GDP measurements to gauge standard of living. New Zealand has by far the highest standard of living of any English speaking country. Yet, countries such as the United States, Canada, and Australia all have a much higher per capita GDP.


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## megacity30

^^ You do have a point, Hed_Kandi.

However, how else will you quantitatively measure the average / median standard of living of a country?


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## Ulpia-Serdica

^^

IMO, a good analysis of GDP per capita (PPP), HDI & GINI coefficient is what is needed in order to determine the median standard of living of a country.


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## VECTROTALENZIS

GDP per capita is an indicator of roughly where a country is in wealth. Both GDP per capita and HDI must be used when comparing countries development. That's why I think that NZ is more developed than Italy and Spain. 

Both Portugal's HDI and GDP per capita isn't so impressive.












ProdayuSlona said:


> Possibly because he had an outdated list?


No I use the IMF instead of World Bank's list.


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## El...

Portugal perhabs..


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## twentyfivetacos

Hed_Kandi said:


> I wouldn't be using per capita GDP measurements to gauge standard of living. New Zealand has by far the highest standard of living of any English speaking country. Yet, countries such as the United States, Canada, and Australia all have a much higher per capita GDP.


 Is this a joke? You’ve clearly never been to New Zealand. Some people seem to have this weird idea that New Zealand is like the Switzerland of the South Pacific. New Zealand has more in common with Papua New Guinea or Fiji than it has with any European country. Auckland’s crime rate is nearly as high as cities like New Orleans or Los Angeles. Its trains are second hand from Australia :lol::lol:

New Zealand is nothing like those childish "Lord Of The Rings" movies. Check out the movie “Once Were Warriors” if you want to see what New Zealand is really like.


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## twentyfivetacos

A picture of a typical New Zealand man


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## eddeux

Any developed nation today with an aging/declining population, and burdened with high levels of debt, IMO is in danger of falling into 'developing' status if the situation doesn't change in a few decades--and actually worsens. Smaller workforces, shrinking tax base, growing number of pensioners, and slower economic growth could be disastrous. Automization and productivity gains may not be enough to keep up with other nations, and so as the standards for developed changes over time they may be slow to adapt and fall out of the category. 

My :2cents:


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## messicano

I think that no one


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## zaphod

> Any developed nation today with an aging/declining population, and burdened with high levels of debt, IMO is in danger of falling into 'developing' status if the situation doesn't change in a few decades--and actually worsens. Smaller workforces, shrinking tax base, growing number of pensioners, and slower economic growth could be disastrous. Automization and productivity gains may not be enough to keep up with other nations, and so as the standards for developed changes over time they may be slow to adapt and fall out of the category.


This is why I think the whole nominal "status" of developing vs. development is flawed. It's inherently subjective to put together a bunch of statistics and draw a line. If a country is peaceful, has very stable government with rule of law, people have their needs taken care of and society is relatively egalitarian, then the country is "developed" in my opinion.

I would argue a lot of lower-ranking Eastern European countries are better off than chaotic East Asian or Latin American, even if they rank similiarly in some categories.


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## VECTROTALENZIS

zaphod said:


> I would argue a lot of lower-ranking Eastern European countries are better off than chaotic East Asian countries


Which East Asian countries are you thinking of?

The countries to chose from are Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, China, North Korea, and Mongolia.

Only latter 3 fall into your explanation in my opinion.


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## Sky Binh Nguyen

I would argue a lot of lower-ranking Eastern European countries are better off than chaotic East Asian or Latin American, even if they rank similiarly in some categories.[/QUOTE]

Whether good or bad ís very subjective matter. If you love a culture (due to your birth, your education, your parent, your love etc.), you would argue that every aspects of it are better than others. But I believe most people would agree/accept the following:
1. North East Asian countries have highest average IQ in the world, higher than any European country, whether West or East European.

2. Education: East Asian countries education rank much higher than most, if not all European nations, whether East or West European (see TIMSS or PISA results)

3. The cities in North East Asian are generally more crowded due to high population density and not beautiful (too many skyscrapers, permanent grey sky, ...), compared to many cities in the world, but technologically speaking, they are more advanced than most European cities, whether West or East European. Most European cities are beautiful in my eyes, but quite less advanced compared to East Asian cities. 

4. During last ten years, most technological advances of the world are made either in the US, North East Asia or Western Europe. Ranking by numbers of International patents filling by WIPO 2011 data, US rank first, then Japan, Germany, South Korea and China. East European countries are very far behind. Other than Russia, which I see it as a Eurasian technological superpower, all East European countries now in the rank of Thailand, Malaysia or Mexico in term of technological advancement and far behind even North Korea, let alone powerful South Korea, Japan or China.


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## eddeux

zaphod said:


> This is why I think the whole nominal "status" of developing vs. development is flawed. It's inherently subjective to put together a bunch of statistics and draw a line. *If a country is peaceful, has very stable government with rule of law, people have their needs taken care of and society is relatively egalitarian, then the country is "developed" in my opinion.*
> 
> I would argue a lot of lower-ranking Eastern European countries are better off than chaotic East Asian or Latin American, even if they rank similiarly in some categories.


I agree quality of life is much more important but how else would we measure them without statistics? What I mean is the countries with higher standards of living usually have lower morality rates, higher literacy, more educated, lower malnutrition rates, etc. We wouldn't know this if statistics weren't compiled. I do think they are not always accurate depictions of reality though. They may make some nations appear more or less developed. Just because X nation has a much higher poverty/morality/whatever rate than Y nation, when in fact this still is limited to a small portion of its population, and the majority are relatively well off. If you get what I mean.


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## eddeux

> 3. The cities in North East Asian are generally more crowded due to high population density and not beautiful (too many skyscrapers, permanent grey sky, ...), compared to many cities in the world, but technologically speaking, they are more advanced than most European cities, whether West or East European. Most European cities are beautiful in my eyes, but quite less advanced compared to East Asian cities.


I agree their population size may make them appear not as 'livable' if I may say. Korean cities are definitely advanced, well at least when it comes to universal broadband connections, and Japanese too. But other than that I don't see how they're more advanced. I will say though both European and NE Asian cities are superior infrastructure-wise compared to American cities.:yes:




Sky Binh Nguyen said:


> Whether good or bad ís very subjective matter. If you love a culture (due to your birth, your education, your parent, your love etc.), you would argue that every aspects of it are better than others. But I believe most people would agree/accept the following:
> 1. North East Asian countries have highest average IQ in the world, higher than any European country, whether West or East European.
> 
> 2. Education: East Asian countries education rank much higher than most, if not all European nations, whether East or West European (see TIMSS or PISA results)


I hope you know the industrialized world as we know it started out in Western Europe. This same region to this day still boasts the greatest standard of living in the world (besides the U.S./Canada of course ), and will for some time to come. So please keep your IQ garbage to yourself because obviously their "lower IQs" didn't stop them from bringing about the world we see, or continuing to play a major role in shaping it, today.

Education rankings don't tell much either. There's a difference between being book smart and innovative, creative, etc which ultimately matters much more when trying to propel your economy/society to new heights. Besides, you've got Africans & Asians enrolling in European universities. Primary/secondary they may not all rank up with Korea or Japan but they lead massively in higher education.


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## Sky Binh Nguyen

èđđeůx;98272577 said:


> I agree their population size may make them appear not as 'livable' if I may say. Korean cities are definitely advanced, well at least when it comes to universal broadband connections, and Japanese too. But other than that I don't see how they're more advanced. I will say though both European and NE Asian cities are superior infrastructure-wise compared to American cities.:yes:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you know the industrialized world as we know it started out in Western Europe. This same region to this day still boasts the greatest standard of living in the world (besides the U.S./Canada of course ), and will for some time to come. So please keep your IQ garbage to yourself because obviously their "lower IQs" didn't stop them from bringing about the world we see, or continuing to play a major role in shaping it, today.
> 
> Education rankings don't tell much either. There's a difference between being book smart and innovative, creative, etc which ultimately matters much more when trying to propel your economy/society to new heights. Besides, you've got Africans & Asians enrolling in European universities. Primary/secondary they may not all rank up with Korea or Japan but they lead massively in higher education.


World have been under Western domination for around 200 years, and been somewhat brainwashed by their propaganda. Industriliased world is not started from anywhere. It is a gradual process. Many so-called Western invention were actually Chinese or other Eastern countries then copied by Western countries through Central Asia and Turkey. Example for weapons: rockets, cannon, land mine, naval mine, rocket multilauncher, armor vehicle, rifle, etc. all were invented in either China or Korea, but we all know them with some Western names behind.

The lead in higher education by Western countries is real (only a handful of Western countries, like US and UK are worth to talk about, nothing to do with countries like Spain, Greece, Ireland or Italy and other roughly 30 European countries), but I believe it is only a momentum issue. US and UK can not go on churning out low-standard high school students and in the same times, lead the world in university education forever, not to mention about the clear biased opinion toward Anglo-Saxon and English-speaking universities by the ranking organization. For example, Beijing and Tsinghua universities, where many top Chinese scientist and politician graduated, even rank behind some Hong Kong universities.


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## onosqaciw

IQ is not the only "all important factor" and i have seen the ranking.....east asian are a standout but the disparity between east asian and non east asian on IQ is only 5-10 points..it's not that significant


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## Rascar

> World have been under Western domination for around 200 years, and been somewhat brainwashed by their propaganda. Industriliased world is not started from anywhere. It is a gradual process.


The game changer was the mechanisation of labour and the use of labour saving devices, this freed up a huge surplus of workers at the same time as building up a surplus of capital, allowing industrialisation. 

This happened in the West in a specific time period. Of course other countries had ingenious inventions beforehand, eg the Romans or Chinese could have developed a steam engine, but they didn't. There is no certainty that the world would be industrialised and mechanised today without the industrial revolution in Western Europe.


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## eddeux

Sky Binh Nguyen said:


> World have been under Western domination for around 200 years, and been somewhat brainwashed by their propaganda. Industriliased world is not started from anywhere. It is a gradual process. Many so-called Western invention were actually Chinese or other Eastern countries then copied by Western countries through Central Asia and Turkey. Example for weapons: rockets, cannon, land mine, naval mine, rocket multilauncher, armor vehicle, rifle, etc. all were invented in either China or Korea, but we all know them with some Western names behind.


 Industrialization started in the west. The automobile, airplane, steam-engine, interchangeable parts, rail, skyscraper, computer, everything you're using to type out your responses came from the west. Yes of course if gun powder was never invented in China the gun wouldn't have come about. Humans have been learning and improving from one another for all of our history. From the middle east to Europe to China and India. I understand, and am fully aware, of the brainwashing and other crap the west has spewed out over the past few centuries from global colonization, beauty standards, unwelcome interference in other nations' affairs, and so on. Despite this I, and even you, can't deny Western Europe (Britain in particular) started industrialization.

So like I said, keep your IQ talks to yourself. They really don't mean crap.


> The lead in higher education by Western countries is real (only a handful of Western countries, like US and UK are worth to talk about, nothing to do with countries like Spain, Greece, Ireland or Italy and other roughly 30 European countries), but I believe it is only a momentum issue. US and UK can not go on churning out low-standard high school students and in the same times, lead the world in university education forever, not to mention about the clear biased opinion toward Anglo-Saxon and English-speaking universities by the ranking organization. For example, Beijing and Tsinghua universities, where many top Chinese scientist and politician graduated, even rank behind some Hong Kong universities.


You're nitpicking. I can do the same for primary/secondary rankings. Other than Japan, Korea and possibly Taiwan no other Asian nation ranks above the west.


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## haikiller11

My personal experience tells me that east asia is far better than russia. However, it also tells me that there are many big and serious problems.

The education: the education system in the far east seems to be perfect but in fact it is the west that has much better education. The education in tye far east is way too impractical. For example, when I was 16, I had to learn Phylosophy, advance biology, advance calculus, advance physics and advance chemistry and that's just high school.

Discrimminated society: asians are arrogants. We look down on poor people, we treat immigrants as second class citizens. Money is everything in asia. Bars and clubs are places for us to show off our wealth. If you can't get a good job or graduate from uni, people will treat you different. We also look down on black, indian and arabian. If you are ugly, there are less chances for you to get a good job. 

Low social mobility: the far east is dominated by powerful families. Guys like mark zuckerberg, bill gates, steve jobs, richard branson, michael dell have less chances to be success if they were asian.

Low crime rate: the triad, the yakuza, blah blah. In fact those guys are only dangerous on the big screen. Far east cities are much safer than the west.


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## Kolony

Russia and other former Soviet Countries may not have a high education ranking, but are in the top or covering all subjects. You have universities and colleges for everything over there as i have seen from my personal experience.

But, their ranking globally is not so high. 

On the other hand, they have some of the highest literacy rates in the world, with 14 out of 15 having over 80% (exept Uzbekistan which has 79.8%, but no big deal). So they are excellent readers.


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## Sky Binh Nguyen

èđđeůx;98302073 said:


> Industrialization started in the west. The automobile, airplane, steam-engine, interchangeable parts, rail, skyscraper, computer, everything you're using to type out your responses came from the west. Yes of course if gun powder was never invented in China the gun wouldn't have come about. Humans have been learning and improving from one another for all of our history. From the middle east to Europe to China and India. I understand, and am fully aware, of the brainwashing and other crap the west has spewed out over the past few centuries from global colonization, beauty standards, unwelcome interference in other nations' affairs, and so on. Despite this I, and even you, can't deny Western Europe (Britain in particular) started industrialization.
> 
> So like I said, keep your IQ talks to yourself. They really don't mean crap.
> 
> You're nitpicking. I can do the same for primary/secondary rankings. Other than Japan, Korea and possibly Taiwan no other Asian nation ranks above the west.


The PISA test, TIMSS test, IQ test, WIPO data have been around for decades to almost one hundred years and are the measurable facts, published by prestigious organizations and authors.

Innovation and creativity are very subjective issues and not measurable. You can say that African are very innovative, Indian are very innovative, Tibetan are very innovative, Italian are very innovative ... looking at their products (music, fashion, handicraft, auto design, etc.), but the engineering and science development need not that type of creativity, but hard work, serious investment and talent in areas like math, physics and chemistry. 

I think you need some knowledge on economy and science history of the East, especially China, Japan and Korea before discussion, because you seem to hear only what you want to hear, not the facts. They are all in Wikipedia or other free website.


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## Slartibartfas

Sky Binh Nguyen said:


> World have been under Western domination for around 200 years, and been somewhat brainwashed by their propaganda. Industriliased world is not started from anywhere. It is a gradual process. Many so-called Western invention were actually Chinese or other Eastern countries then copied by Western countries through Central Asia and Turkey. Example for weapons: rockets, cannon, land mine, naval mine, rocket multilauncher, armor vehicle, rifle, etc. all were invented in either China or Korea, but we all know them with some Western names behind.


There is no way in denying that the industrial _revolution_ was a European thing, only later taken over by Asian countries. Many people, also in Europe are very well aware that China was a long shot ahead of Europe for a long time especially during Europe's dark age, no news there either. But already in the late medieval times, after the political chaos stabilized somewhat, the catching up process truly started with increasing numbers of universities that were based on what the monastery system saved and even researched itself as well as recovering lost antique knowledge recorded by the Arabs and last but certainly not least knowledge it gathered from other corners of the world, transmitted largely by the Arabs as well. That catching up took several centuries but at the end of the 18th century, the Europeans made up the strongest force in the world, also because China started to experience a time of weakness, which it is basically only recovering from today, by copying all the stuff it missed out in the last century or more. Soon it will be able to join the group of those at the front. Japan did it already several decades ago. 

The "who did it first" are funny questions but often miss the point. Steam machines existed already in ancient Greece (and possibly in other places even before), but it was the Europeans who started to make real and industrial scale use of them, causing a revolution that changed the entire way how our civilization works. Yes education in Europe is indeed Europe centric, but that does not mean that Asian centric, "in reality Europe did nothing at all" propaganda like yours is closer to the truth. 



> The lead in higher education by Western countries is real (only a handful of Western countries, like US and UK are worth to talk about, nothing to do with countries like Spain, Greece, Ireland or Italy and other roughly 30 European countries), but I believe it is only a momentum issue. US and UK can not go on churning out low-standard high school students and in the same times, lead the world in university education forever, not to mention about the clear biased opinion toward Anglo-Saxon and English-speaking universities by the ranking organization. For example, Beijing and Tsinghua universities, where many top Chinese scientist and politician graduated, even rank behind some Hong Kong universities.


Your ignorance is impressive regarding Europe. The very fact that you consider the ETH in Zuerich not worth tot talk about at all, for example, shows that you've got no clue. 

I have heard people with hands on experience of Asian education, that they are extremely good at learning books, and excel at exams and especially things like the PISA studies etc. But their big problem is that their education system is geared and overoptimized towards being good at PISA and co not towards being good. There is a difference. I have heard stories that some Chinese students who were beyond great in English exams, utterly failed when not confronted with an English exam but real life application of English in a professional environment. 

Something similar can be observed when it comes to research. Large parts of Chinese scientific research, which is a massive machinery already, is not geared towards doing great research but to appear great in all sorts of scientific research indicators. Again these two things are not the same and the difference is when you compare the statistics and the indicators with the real quality of scientific papers written in China. China won't become a developed country as long as it does not work on that discrepancy. It is not enough to look like the best on paper and in statistics, you actually should aim for being the best in reality.


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## Slartibartfas

Sky Binh Nguyen said:


> The PISA test, TIMSS test, IQ test, WIPO data have been around for decades to almost one hundred years and are the measurable facts, published by prestigious organizations and authors.
> 
> Innovation and creativity are very subjective issues and not measurable. You can say that African are very innovative, Indian are very innovative, Tibetan are very innovative, Italian are very innovative ... looking at their products (music, fashion, handicraft, auto design, etc.), but the engineering and science development need not that type of creativity, but hard work, serious investment and talent in areas like math, physics and chemistry.


Funny how you trust western tests and organizations while you don't think very kindly of the West in most other regards. The fact is however, that PISA and co are tests, and being good at these tests might indicate having a certain skill but the only thing they really prove is that you are good at the test. Not more, not less. If for example students are drilled in one country towards being good at the test, while in another towards broader more practical applications, the former group will be better at the test, but the latter more useful for the country's economy. 

Engineering and science don't need creativity but merely hard work? :nuts:
With that attitude you won't get far in engineering and science. Knowledge of the rules of math, physics and chemistry are merely the basis, you need a lot of creativity and innovation to develop them further. No matter if you need them for product development, applied research or basic research.

Just because you are not able of objectively quantifying them does not mean they are not essential. Sometimes you have to live with the fact that not everything can be quantified, like you have to live with the fact that statistics are not absolute truth either but can be biased. 



> I think you need some knowledge on economy and science history of the East, especially China, Japan and Korea before discussion, because you seem to hear only what you want to hear, not the facts. They are all in Wikipedia or other free website.


Possibly, but you need most probably some education on European history. Your view seems no less biased than from some Europe-centric person, just the other way round.


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## Sky Binh Nguyen

Slartibartfas said:


> There is no way in denying that the industrial _revolution_ was a European thing, only later taken over by Asian countries. Many people, also in Europe are very well aware that China was a long shot ahead of Europe for a long time especially during Europe's dark age, no news there either. But already in the late medieval times, after the political chaos stabilized somewhat, the catching up process truly started with increasing numbers of universities that were based on what the monastery system saved and even researched itself as well as recovering lost antique knowledge recorded by the Arabs and last but certainly not least knowledge it gathered from other corners of the world, transmitted largely by the Arabs as well. That catching up took several centuries but at the end of the 18th century, the Europeans made up the strongest force in the world, also because China started to experience a time of weakness, which it is basically only recovering from today, by copying all the stuff it missed out in the last century or more. Soon it will be able to join the group of those at the front. Japan did it already several decades ago.
> 
> The "who did it first" are funny questions but often miss the point. Steam machines existed already in ancient Greece (and possibly in other places even before), but it was the Europeans who started to make real and industrial scale use of them, causing a revolution that changed the entire way how our civilization works. Yes education in Europe is indeed Europe centric, but that does not mean that Asian centric, "in reality Europe did nothing at all" propaganda like yours is closer to the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> Your ignorance is impressive regarding Europe. The very fact that you consider the ETH in Zuerich not worth tot talk about at all, for example, shows that you've got no clue.
> 
> I have heard people with hands on experience of Asian education, that they are extremely good at learning books, and excel at exams and especially things like the PISA studies etc. But their big problem is that their education system is geared and overoptimized towards being good at PISA and co not towards being good. There is a difference. I have heard stories that some Chinese students who were beyond great in English exams, utterly failed when not confronted with an English exam but real life application of English in a professional environment.
> 
> Something similar can be observed when it comes to research. Large parts of Chinese scientific research, which is a massive machinery already, is not geared towards doing great research but to appear great in all sorts of scientific research indicators. Again these two things are not the same and the difference is when you compare the statistics and the indicators with the real quality of scientific papers written in China. China won't become a developed country as long as it does not work on that discrepancy. It is not enough to look like the best on paper and in statistics, you actually should aim for being the best in reality.


It have been at least a decade since the Western propaganda "Chinese scientific research are just copies" around. But the fact is:

1. China now have at least two successfull stealth fighter jets. Europe have none. They can not be just copies. 

2. No country in the world can build a 30-storey building in such a short time. It is an engineering feat. It require serious scientific knowledge and know-how. They can not be just copies.

If in 2013, they succeed in building the world tallest building in just 3 months, then the superiority of China engineering capability is confirmed. In reality, no engineering works in the ancient world were comparable to Great Wall and Great Canal of China, except possibly the Egyptian pyramids. 

3. The high-speed railways in China now is the world's most superior in length as well as speed. They can not be just copies.

3. In 2011, China's Huawei top the world in number of international patent fillings by a company. The WIPO international patents filling are serious patents and China as a whole rank fourth in the world, just behind the US, Japan and Germany, dwafted Italy, France, England etc. Thank to their advancement, Huawei in 2012 become the world No.1 telecom equipment maker. It is so sillly and jealous to say that their success are just copies. No one can just copy others to become the top dog.

4. "I have heard people with hands on experience of Asian education, that they are extremely good at learning books, and excel at exams and especially things like the PISA studies etc. But their big problem is that their education system is geared and overoptimized towards being good at PISA and co not towards being good." 

Toyota have executed 20 millions new ideas in 40 years to become No.1 world automobile maker (Read "40 years, 20 millions ideas - The Toyota suggestion system"). If there are any country and people in the world more "geared toward being good" than the Japanese, please enlighten me. The Toyota production system is now copied by every world major automobile manufacturers.

5. WIPO, IQ, PISA, etc. are not the western tests. They are international. 

6. I do not say that science work do not need creavity. I said "that type of creavity".

7. The first text-books in my life were about Western history (Greek-Roman history), because my mother taught Western history at university, so I think my knowledge on Western history is at least as good as most Western forumers here, unless they are professional historians. I also have extensive knowledge on China and Central Asia history.


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## lawine

Sky Binh Nguyen said:


> 1. China now have at least two successfull stealth fighter jets. Europe have none. They can not be just copies.


This isn't because the EU countries are incapable of building such technologies. In fact, there's quite a few unmanned military stealth craft developed by European countries/companies. However, European countries have made a very conscious decision to favor maneuvrability over stealth; as is the case with the eurofighter, for instance. European fighter craft still have stealth features, but it just isn't the focus. The argument is that stealth grants only a temporary edge, as new technologies are constantly developed that negate stealth features. As a result of this different focus, european fighters have the best handling in the world, which expands their usefulness on the long run. So there's two different design philosophies at work, which has nothing to do with having a superior or inferior technology base. 



> 2. No country in the world can build a 30-storey building in such a short time. It is an engineering feat. It require serious scientific knowledge and know-how. They can not be just copies.


This is an absurd claim. This could be accomplished by any country with modern engineering companies. While it's impressive, it's by no means something only China could do. It also ignores the fact that most countries have rather strict regulations that prevent companies from doing something like this with a relatively unproven method. For the record, we've been using prefab methods for engineering projects since the 70's at least (see the Dutch Delta Works for an example). Just not for skyscrapers. 



> 3. The high-speed railways in China now is the world's most superior in length as well as speed. They can not be just copies.


Hate to break it to you, but the TGV still holds the conventional land record



> Huawei in 2012 become the world top telecom equipment maker. It is so sillly and jeoulous to say that their success are just copies. No one can just copy to become the top dog.


That's pretty much what apple did, so I don't see why not.



> 7. The first text-books in my life were about Western history (Greek-Roman history), because my mother taught Western history at university, so I think my knowledge on Western history is at least as good as most Western forumers here,


Doubtful.


----------



## Slartibartfas

Sky Binh Nguyen said:


> It have been at least a decade since the Western propaganda "Chinese scientific research are just copies" around. But the fact is:


Straw man. I was not talking about copies. China is of course doing original research on a large scale. I was talking about the quality of that original research which is often mediocre. Not judged by some statistics but by reading various Chinese research papers myself. 

I am convinced that China will realize at one point that being the best in the statistics is not sufficient for being the best. At that point they will stop giving so much thought on how to exploit the assessment systems but rather concentrate on delivering the truly best research they can. 




> Toyota have executed 20 millions new ideas in 40 years to become No.1 world automobile maker (Read "40 years, 20 millions ideas - The Toyota suggestion system"). If there are any country and people in the world more "geared toward being good" than the Japanese, please enlighten me. The Toyota production system is now copied by every world major automobile manufacturers.


Japan also knows the problem of too theoretical education but as one of the most developed Asian countries has overcome it to some extend. China isn't there yet but give it a decade or two it may get there. 



> 5. WIPO, IQ, PISA, etc. are not the western tests. They are international.


I was talking about PISA, it is done by the OECD. Do I have to explan to you what the OECD is? 



> 7. The first text-books in my life were about Western history (Greek-Roman history), because my mother taught Western history at university, so I think my knowledge on Western history is at least as good as most Western forumers here, unless they are professional historians. I also have extensive knowledge on China and Central Asia history.


If your knowledge is good, than you are blinded at least by nationalist (or regional) arrogance. Very knowledgeable people can be very extreme in their views.


----------



## GI_Joint

Hed_Kandi said:


> I wouldn't be using per capita GDP measurements to gauge standard of living. New Zealand has by far the highest standard of living of any English speaking country. Yet, countries such as the United States, Canada, and Australia all have a much higher per capita GDP.


I wouldn't quite say that, here in New Zealand we have a high standard of living but we're also a low wage economy and we're expensive to live in, so we have our fair share of hardworking folks on lower incomes who struggle to make ends meet. Our welfare system is a good safety net for those falling on hard times but it does get abused, there's some nasty people who would prefer to buy smokes and booze than feed their kids. 

Kids going to school without shoes or breakfast beforehand has been a hot topic this year, sad stuff. 



twentyfivetacos said:


> Is this a joke? You’ve clearly never been to New Zealand. Some people seem to have this weird idea that New Zealand is like the Switzerland of the South Pacific. New Zealand has more in common with Papua New Guinea or Fiji than it has with any European country. Auckland’s crime rate is nearly as high as cities like New Orleans or Los Angeles. Its trains are second hand from Australia :lol::lol:
> 
> New Zealand is nothing like those childish "Lord Of The Rings" movies. Check out the movie “Once Were Warriors” if you want to see what New Zealand is really like.


But we're not as bad as this guy thinks, who is also using a movie from 1994 as reference to what NZ is "really like"

That said though, many immigrants come to NZ to start a new life with the misconception that everything here is gold, only to end up struggling, so do some research people.


----------



## Karaborsa

Sky Binh Nguyen said:


> World have been under Western domination for around 200 years, and been somewhat brainwashed by their propaganda. Industriliased world is not started from anywhere. It is a gradual process. Many so-called Western invention were actually Chinese or other Eastern countries then copied by Western countries through Central Asia and Turkey. Example for weapons: rockets, cannon, land mine, naval mine, rocket multilauncher, armor vehicle, rifle, etc. all were invented in either China or Korea, but we all know them with some Western names behind.


The core knowledge did definetly came from the east, i live in europe and have seen many of these western propaganda myself. The trend in the west is ignore the east and think they invented everything on their own. If you sum op of few of what is being invented there they watch at you with big eyes. The most absurd one is the renaming of the arabic scholars to latin names and claim their inventions in the middle ages by the westerners.

I can give many examples from what is as they know is invented in so-called west to have eastern origin. Let alone how many jewish-moslim and chinese origin inventors do work there in this global world.



> The lead in higher education by Western countries is real (only a handful of Western countries, like US and UK are worth to talk about, nothing to do with countries like Spain, Greece, Ireland or Italy and other roughly 30 European countries), but I believe it is only a momentum issue. US and UK can not go on churning out low-standard high school students and in the same times, lead the world in university education forever, not to mention about the clear biased opinion toward Anglo-Saxon and English-speaking universities by the ranking organization. For example, Beijing and Tsinghua universities, where many top Chinese scientist and politician graduated, even rank behind some Hong Kong universities.


dont believe those so called "rankings", if you would believe it then you would also agree that justin timberlake and matt damon are the "sexiest" in this world because of their so-called rankings.

Its just the anglo-saxon media propaganda that we have to deal it everyday.


----------



## snt3000

If the two Koreas ever re-unite, I think SK may have a hard time staying in the 'developed' league.


----------



## eddeux

^^I believe it'd take decades of economic growth before the two totally reunited.


----------



## eddeux

Sky Binh Nguyen said:


> The PISA test, TIMSS test, IQ test, WIPO data have been around for decades to almost one hundred years and are the measurable facts, published by prestigious organizations and authors.
> 
> Innovation and creativity are very subjective issues and not measurable. You can say that African are very innovative, Indian are very innovative, Tibetan are very innovative, Italian are very innovative ... looking at their products (music, fashion, handicraft, auto design, etc.), but the engineering and science development need not that type of creativity, but hard work, serious investment and talent in areas like math, physics and chemistry.
> 
> I think you need some knowledge on economy and science history of the East, especially China, Japan and Korea before discussion, because you seem to hear only what you want to hear, not the facts. They are all in Wikipedia or other free website.


You really want to go there? Are you blind or just stupid? Everything I typed out you ignored. Instead of rebutting you go to point out tests that don't mean much in the grand scale of things. Going back 100 years would be extremely idiotic ESPECIALLY if you're trying to compare countries when many did not even exist in their present size or at all back then. Not to mention most not even having collected data on their populations. What was the literacy rate of the average person in the U.S., China, British/French colonies, etc back then? Highest level of education for the masses? 

Innovation and creativity are important. I'm not disputing investments in math & science but how do they progress without innovation? To be innovative you need the scientific and mathematical background, and also the capability of using what you've learned to improve upon known methods, meet new needs, etc. 

And yes I don't know as much as I could on the history of science in the Far East. However, its clear you don't know much about the world outside of your mere region either. Go pick up a few books on the economic history and scientific knowledge of Europe, the Middle East, India, Africa & the Americas (pre-colonization). You'd learn a thing or two because as of now it seems as if you ignorantly think everyone else was running around with cloths covering their junk and spears.:lol:

Clearly I'm wasting my time with you. :yawn:


----------



## ArchiMos

I don´t know, this discussion seames pointless, I mean who knows what will happen? All of you seem to treat static models of the world development in all other fields - politics, nature, scince, but it is almost unreal that the world will be stuck in the same directions of development as it is now. hno:

Spain... you´re treating just two of many possible scripts: or Spain will surpass the crises sooner or later or it won´t, but so many other factors can influance to its development or downgrade, for example - politics: what will hapen with Spain if Catalunya will get independence ?


----------



## ArchiMos

As no one has written nothing here the last days, let´s resume:

We can´t know if Spain, Portugal, Greece or other western contries will downgrade to developing ones or no, but we can confirme by sure that a lot of people all over the world want it so very much :banana:^^:banana:


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## Phayer

It may be hard to say that an American, but I think today Russia developed. `-`


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## alejandro.ags

Phayer said:


> It may be hard to say that an American, but I think today Russia developed. `-`


Russia are you serious?


----------



## Phayer

> Rússia está falando sério?


Yes


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## Candido

Russia is not developed at all. Not by all that means.


----------



## ArchiMos

Candido said:


> Russia is not developed at all. Not by all that means.


Where are you from and what do you know about Russia to assure that it is developed or not ?

Russia, by my modest opinion, is not a developed country, but, yes, it is a lot more developed, than lots of other leading emerging economies even if they grow faster.


----------



## Candido

ArchiMos said:


> Where are you from and what do you know about Russia to assure that it is developed or not ?
> 
> Russia, by my modest opinion, is not a developed country, but, yes, it is a lot more developed, than lots of other leading emerging economies even if they grow faster.


Russia is a Super Power in Military and Spacial development but social, political and economically it is far from developed. Anyone can see that just doing a superficial research on the Web.


----------



## ArchiMos

Politicaly - won´t say nothing, far from being developed and never will be

But socially - Russia is near developed, and is so for a long period of time, economicaly - it is developing far more faster than a lot others emerging powers, if we spek about data per capita


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## Phayer

Socially speaking russia is developing very fast, so keep up your data to see growth.

Politically I think still bad.

Infrastructure also think it is developing fast. Most do not know how this situation of education, health ...

Economically this well.

Armed forces, yet there are many outdated weapons, I honestly do not think powerful.


----------



## Candido

Phayer said:


> Socially speaking russia is developing very fast, so keep up your data to see growth.
> 
> Politically I think still bad.
> 
> Infrastructure also think it is developing fast. Most do not know how this situation of education, health ...
> 
> Economically this well.
> 
> Armed forces, yet there are many outdated weapons, I honestly do not think powerful.


Military Russia is a Superpower and you can't deny that. Even USA couldn't fight them. Socially, not only Russia but also another great emergent economies are developing very fast, so i think they're not 'that' extraordinary. Politically, Russia is barely a Democracy... If it is. Well that is my opinion. They're still far from being a developed country... Maybe they are softly ahead of Latin American countries but even so, they're far from being developed.


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## Phayer

Hahahahahah

http://www.globalfirepower.com/ < The America can not go toe to toe with them ?? Compare the two countries.


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## Phayer

They are not superpowers, the arms warfare of them are outdated , Now they are trying to reform.


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## ArchiMos

Russia is reforming its army, and the army do get the new weapons, and yes Russia is the only country that with its atomic weapons can destroy the United States.

Here you have a good summary from the web page you have mentioned (www.globalfirepower.com):
"Despite the hardships of the 1990s, Russia is poised to become a top modern world power again with increased expenditures in military development and procurement"


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## Phayer

A war between the U.S. and Russia are going to destroy the world, there would be no winners, the two are not stupid to start a war now.

good, they're renovating their nuclear weapons, but the United States are still the greatest superpower today.


----------



## Candido

Phayer said:


> A war between the U.S. and Russia are going to destroy the world, there would be no winners, the two are not stupid to start a war now.
> 
> good, they're renovating their nuclear weapons, but the United States are still the greatest superpower today.


That is what i meant. And i think a War between Russia and USA would not destroy the World unless the entire World entered that unlikely war, which in turn is very very fishy.


----------



## Phayer

yes the world go to war. allies of the two participating

USA:

NATO
Mexico (support)
Japan
Korea
Australia (support)
New Zealand (support)


Russia:

Eurasian Union
Iran
China
North Korea
Cuba (support)
Venezuela (support)
Vietnam (support)

Neutral Countries :

Finland
Sweden
Brazil
Denmark
Austria
Switzerland
Ireland
Turkmenistan


----------



## italiano_pellicano

Mexico have 50 millions of mexicans in POVERTY


----------



## Candido

Phayer said:


> yes the world go to war. allies of the two participating
> 
> USA:
> 
> NATO
> Mexico (support)
> Japan
> Korea
> Australia (support)
> New Zealand (support)
> 
> 
> Russia:
> 
> Eurasian Union
> Iran
> China
> North Korea
> Cuba (support)
> Venezuela (support)
> Vietnam (support)
> 
> Neutral Countries :
> 
> Finland
> Sweden
> Brazil
> Denmark
> Austria
> Switzerland
> Ireland
> Turkmenistan


Off: Yes but in a "World wide War" (LOL) not all allies are directly inflicted. Its very very unlikely that all those countries would be bombarded by nukes, to say the least. 

Probably in such situation, European countries and extreme eastern countries, beyond USA and Russia would be destroyed. The World would suffer extreme economic crisis but it'd recover. End of off;


----------



## Tincho_Lavie

Name user 1 said:


> its nice to have some discussion - off course development its not only about GDP growth, but about sustainable development behind which is - economical, environmental and social development
> 
> apart from that I know some countries in Latin A. having some nice progress> such as Chile is prime example, otherwise Brazil is doing pretty good in diversification of its economy when comparing to 80's or 90's (now Brazil de facto dominate all Latin America)
> 
> don't now much about Peru or Bolivia (there are some separatists tendencies, but president is democratic and looking for consensus)
> 
> however Venezuela or Argentina are special cases both was well developed back in 50's but since then both stagnated in all fronts .. and what's worst now they try to cover it with nationalistic and inward looking protective polices (trade barriers..)


Well actually if you take the HDI index, Argentina became a "developed county" again in 2011 with Chile (the two only latinamerican countries with very high HDI) of course, it is still very far from the 1900-1950's wellnes state... but anyway "protective policies" didn't work so bad as you say...


----------



## Phayer

HDI BRICS -

66 Russia	0.755
85 Brazil 0.718
101 China	0.687
134 India 0.547


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## FAAN

snt3000 said:


> Brasilia definitely does not compare to anywhere in the developed world. There is nothing like the city's huge favelas (google Sol Nacente, Brazil's second largest), widespread violence, deplorable public health and run down infrastructure anywhere in Western Europe, Japan, SK, or even the US.


From what I know the slums of Brasilia are all urbanized.

About the health, Brasília has 3.64 physicians/1,000 inhab., over Portugal (3.18), Germany (3.63), Australia (2.47), Canada (1.87), United States (2, 79).



snt3000 said:


> If you just check the numbers you'll find that we have US$ 30.000+ GDP p.p. (nominal) and a 0,911 HDI, which just shows that statistics are not perfect.


With these numbers Brasília is already better than Portugal.


----------



## alesmarv

FAAN said:


> ^^
> Certainly, the level and very different still it decadent Portugal and Spain are developed countries, but you cannot say that there isn't cities in Latin America that does not compare to the level of EU, if you speak it, you surely don't know nothing about Buenos Aires, Santiago, Brasilia, Curitiba or Mexico City, as well numerous other smaller cities.


There isnt and I am saying it. The cities you mention are great cities in their own right but they simply don't compare to any, and its the simple truth. Like I said I love South America but in terms of social infrastructure it is way behind. Every one of the cities you mention lacks social infrastructure, proper large scale planing, has high crime and poverty rates, inequality, pollution, traffic, overcrowding and failing infrastructure. They are good cities and its not always fair to compare, and I have seen all of them in person, but I m not afrid to say it how it is.


----------



## snt3000

FAAN said:


> From what I know the slums of Brasilia are all urbanized.


No, they aren't 



Bombexx said:


> Algumas do Sol Nascente e Por do Sol, em Ceilândia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://comunicabrasilia.blogspot.com.br/2012/10/morte-do-menino-yuri-provoca-ira-de.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://docafezinho.com.br/?p=6005
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.tribunadetaguatinga.com....e-miseria-extrema&catid=34:noticias&Itemid=58
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://correiobraziliense.lugarcert...ias-para-as-favelas-do-distrito-federal.shtml





FAAN said:


> About the health, Brasília has 3.64 physicians/1,000 inhab., over Portugal (3.18), Germany (3.63), Australia (2.47), Canada (1.87), United States (2, 79).


Are you suggesting that Brasilia is better off than Germany or Australia? You clearly have no idea!

What about a woman giving birth to a baby on the hospital floor because there were no doctors to help? 
http://g1.globo.com/distrito-federa...o-chao-de-maternidade-de-ceilandia-no-df.html
Of course it's an extreme example but stuff just as depressing take place every day, things that I'm sure would be a scandal in any advanced country.

Private hospitals also suck, no wonder former president Lula and current president Dilma went to São Paulo to treat their cancers, and the former vice-president used to fly to NYC to treat his.



FAAN said:


> With these numbers Brasília is already better than Portugal.


Which just proves my point: GDP and HDI alone are just rough benchmaks for comparing development.


----------



## alesmarv

alexandru.mircea said:


> @alesmarv: it's a good post and I agree with you, but it works both ways. It is very hard for people from (more or less) developed countries from the EU to accept the idea that South America isn't just favelas like in "Cidade de Deus", primitive Andes people, rough run-down neighbourhoods like in the documentaries about Boca fans, people working almost like slaves preparing cocaine in the jungle... Or that South East Asia isn't just water-canal based slums... Certainly for me the level of development I've seen in these countries since joining SSC was a great surprise. Normally you don't get to see how people in other countries live except for films, who usually focus on the clichés about the countries they show, and so the perception is strongly mislead. Personally I come from a mid-level European country and I had to accept the idea that my home country is not actually better than, say, Argentina or Columbia. I certainly don't have a Eurocentric superiority complex anymore.


It is not just favelas of course, the cities are beautiful and they have some incredibly wealthy districts, wealthier then any in europe. I will never dispute that, and I agree europeans have a serious eurocentric personality, at the same time there is a very strong inferiority complex in latin america. Personally I dont consider my self european even though I am born there mostly because of that eurocentric attitude. But the truth is that even the poor european countries have built up social infrastructure that latin countries simply dont, you see it when you live there and spend time in the various cities on more then just a touristy level. I hope they get there, I really really do, but its still going to be a long journey, and by long I mean a generation to catch up. I dont want to discourage people who live in south america, they have so many bright spots an have made so much progress, I just dont want them to get complacent and overconfident either because there still such a long way to go. Sometimes the truth hurts.

edit: ^^ please lets not compare pictures, this will never go far, anyone can find any type of picture they want to show anything they want...what is most telling is the opinions of people who live in both to give their opinions, unfortunately these people tend to keep their opinions to them selves. Also you are right about GDP and HDI they are just ruff benchmarks and virtually useless in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

alesmarv said:


> This thread is full of people who simply have not traveled nor lived else where. I am born and lived for many years in europe, lived for over 20 years in north america, and fairly recently lived in south america, and of course traveled allot, mostly through europe and latin and north america (so i wont speak for asia and the middle east)
> 
> There is NOT one country in the EU that you could compare to a any south or central american country, not one. I love latin america but it is a different world and none of the cities or countries have the social infrastructure and quality of life that european countries have in the EU. Not even close to Russia which people love to hate on.
> 
> So when people talk about Greece or Portugal or Spain and how they are going to be some sort of developing country on the level of say latin american countries then these people simply dont know what they are talking about. The gap is enormous, its not just gdp figures, its the situation on the ground and the social infrastructure which takes a long long time to build up. My wife as a example who is from Sao Paulo was for a long time really high about Brazil and south america, always talked about how its going to take over europe and how europe is broke. AN I didnt blame her as that kind of bs was talked about allot down there on the news and among the people, yet reality was very different which of course I knew when I lived there. So then I went back to Czech republic for a few months with my wife, not a rich western european country but also not the poorest. When she saw the infrastructure, especially the social infrastructure and how everything worked, she changed her tune very quickly and I have not heard ONCE since then a single comment about how Brazil and south america is the future. Which is sad because I love latin america but reality is reality. The point is any of these european countries that people like to dump on, and for good reasons, will continue to be tremendously better shape then as a example any of the latin american countries, and for a very very long time.
> 
> It just bugs me sometimes when people try to fight so much about things they clearly know nothing about. The reality is very different from what your news paper tells you or some gdp statistics or what ever show you, statistics mean very little. The social infrastructure that is built up is not possible to calculate and you generally have to be on the ground living there to see it. /rant


So the reality is what your eyes, full of prejudice, see? Hard data is useless then?

São Paulo state GDP per capita (nominal) is on US$ 20,600 as 2011. It will probably overcome Portugal's by the end of this year. Unfortunately, we don't have HDI figures for Brazilian states, but in a quick estimation we did in Brazilian forum, São Paulo is very close to 0.800 boundary, again two or three years distant from Portugal.

Actually, Southern Europe's lead over Latin America is a rather recent phenomena and not an eternal gift from the gods. The southern European leverage is quickly disappearing now, and things are getting into normality.




snt3000 said:


> Brasilia definitely does not compare to anywhere in the developed world. There is nothing like the city's huge favelas (google Sol Nacente, Brazil's second largest), widespread violence, deplorable public health and run down infrastructure anywhere in Western Europe, Japan, SK, or even the US.
> 
> If you just check the numbers you'll find that we have US$ 30.000+ GDP p.p. (nominal) and a 0,911 HDI, which just shows that statistics are not perfect.


Where did you get figures for Brasília HDI? They're wrong.

About Brasília's GDP, it's artificially inflated by Brazilian public sector, so it must be taken cautiously.




snt3000 said:


> Which just proves my point: GDP and HDI alone are just rough benchmaks for comparing development.


Sure, "photo evidence" is much better...


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Yuri S Andrade said:


> To me its a *GDP per capita nominal over R$ 20,000 plus an HDI over 0.800*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Dark Blue --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 20,000 and HDI over 0.800
> Light Blue --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 20,000 or HDI over 0.800
> Green --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 10,000 and HDI over 0.700
> Light Green --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 10,000 or HDI over 0.700
> 
> GDP per capita 2011 (FMI) and HDI 2011 (UN)_
> 
> ^^
> So the dark blue are the developed as 2011.



*2017*

I've made a forecast for 2017. For GDP, I used IMF's estimates. For HDI, it's assumed the countries will grow between 2011-2017 what they did between 2005-2011:


*GDP per capita

Kuwait --- 50,330

Bahamas --- 29,033

Trinidad and Tobago --- 26,482

Saudi Arabia --- 23,936

Oman --- 23,374

Slovakia --- 22,386

Russia --- 22,277

Barbados --- 22,122

Estonia --- 21,861

Kazakhstan --- 20,899

Chile --- 20,528

Uruguay --- 20,196

Lithuania --- 18,611

Poland --- 18,246

Croatia --- 17,504

Hungary --- 17,408

Latvia --- 16,031

Brazil --- 15,986

Turkey --- 15,865

Malaysia --- 14,194

Argentina --- 13,500

Romania --- 13,364

Lebanon --- 13,326

Mexico --- 12,985

Costa Rica --- 12,755

Panama --- 12,709

Mauritius -- 11,206

Venezuela --- 10,888

Colombia --- 9,886

Bulgaria --- 9,873

China --- 9,153

Belarus --- 8,739

Peru --- 8,313

Serbia --- 8,231

Montenegro --- 8,065

Iran --- 8,045

Thailand --- 7,868

Dominican Republic -- 7,246

Macedonia --- 6,466

Jamaica --- 6,312

Algeria --- 6,243

Ukraine --- 6,090

Jordan --- 6,076

Bosnia-Herzegovina --- 5,974

Ecuador --- 5,792

Georgia --- 5,745

Tunisia --- 5,380

Sri Lanka --- 4,721

Albania --- 4,649* 


*IDH

Slovakia --- 0.858

Estonia --- 0.849

Poland --- 0.835

Chile --- 0.831

Argentina --- 0.829

Hungary --- 0.829

Lithuania --- 0.827

Latvia --- 0.826

Uruguay --- 0.818

Romania --- 0.814

Croatia --- 0.812

Barbados --- 0.799

Mexico --- 0.799

Panama --- 0.796

Saudi Arabia --- 0.794

Bulgaria --- 0.793

Trinidad and Tobago --- 0.792

Belarus --- 0.789

Serbia --- 0.788

Montenegro --- 0.785

Bahamas --- 0.785

Russia --- 0.785

Malaysia --- 0.784

Venezuela --- 0.778

Kazakhstan --- 0.776

Kuwait --- 0.768

Lebanon --- 0.767

Costa Rica --- 0.765

Georgia --- 0.759

Peru --- 0.759

Albania --- 0.757

Mauritius -- 0.753

Jamaica --- 0.752

Macedonia --- 0.752

Bosnia-Herzegovina --- 0.749

Ukraine --- 0.746

Colombia --- 0.745

Ecuador --- 0.745

Brazil --- 0.744

Irã --- 0.743

China --- 0.741

Tunisia --- 0.729

Turkey --- 0.727

Jordan --- 0.723

Algeria --- 0.720

Dominican Republic -- 0.720

Sri Lanka --- 0.720

Oman --- 0.716

Thailand --- 0.708*


^^
Therefore the next "developed" by *2017* will be *Slovakia*, *Estonia*, *Chile* and *Uruguay*.

And answering the thread, no current developed will lose its status for now.


----------



## haikiller11

Europe is still far ahead in term of social development imo. Even bankrupcity countries such as Italy and Spain are still socially better than most of wealthy Asian states ( Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan) so I don't think that Latin America has any chance to outperform Europe in term of social development in near future.


----------



## alesmarv

Yuri S Andrade said:


> So the reality is what your eyes, full of prejudice, see? Hard data is useless then?
> 
> São Paulo state GDP per capita (nominal) is on US$ 20,600 as 2011. It will probably overcome Portugal's by the end of this year. Unfortunately, we don't have HDI figures for Brazilian states, but in a quick estimation we did in Brazilian forum, São Paulo is very close to 0.800 boundary, again two or three years distant from Portugal.
> 
> Actually, Southern Europe's lead over Latin America is a rather recent phenomena and not an eternal gift from the gods. The southern European leverage is quickly disappearing now, and things are getting into normality.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get figures for Brasília HDI? They're wrong.
> 
> About Brasília's GDP, it's artificially inflated by Brazilian public sector, so it must be taken cautiously.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, "photo evidence" is much better...


You prove my point. You can post all the statistics you want, it doesn't change reality. I lived in Sao Paulo, my wife is from Sao Paulo and there right now as I type. Its a great city, I am in no way shape or form trying to belittle it. The fact though is that Sao Paulo is a mess, it doesn't come close to the poorest countries in the EU and that is as the wealthiest city in Brazil. Of course it has some extremely wealthy neighborhoods and very nice modern parts of the city that would match up well against any city in the world if you ignored some of the small details. You fail to realize that GDP figures are beyond meaningless, in fact they can be a negative sign. A GDP of 10,000(ppp) per capita in one country is not the same as a GDP of 10,000(ppp) per capita in another country. I suppose you think you can compare Brazil with Serbia as they have virtual equal GDP(ppp) per capita figures? Well believe me you cant, Serbia may have problems relative to europe but it is still a country that is on a simply another level from Brazil and the reality on the ground is strikingly different. Have you lived out side of Brazil? Because my wife had a similar distorted view until she got some real world experience.

Take what I say and use it as motivation because one issue I always had there was the complacency. I am not a German fan boy but do you know why they have always done well? Because they were never complacent with their situation and always kept striving forward.

In any case you may be interested in this: 91% of Sao Paulo residence feel unsafe and dissatisfied with their life in the city, 56% would leave if they could...http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/01/23/285169/brazilians-doubt-govs-crime-prevention/ This is reality.

And again I love Sao Paulo, I love Brasil, I want it to do well. I just don't want to see this false confidence and complacency because it will result in only one thing, stagnation and the status qua /rant.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

haikiller11 said:


> Europe is still far ahead in term of social development imo. Even bankrupcity countries such as Italy and Spain are still socially better than most of wealthy Asian states ( Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan) so I don't think that Latin America has any chance to outperform Europe in term of social development in near future.


Chile is about to:

*HDI 2011*
Portugal --- 0.809
Chile ------ 0.805

*GDP per capita 2012*
Portugal --- US$ 19,768
Chile ------ US$ 15,416

^^
The current trends suggest Chile will overcome Portugal by 2013 or 2014 on HDI and by 2016 or 2017 on GDP per capita.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I fail to see what's the big deal about. In *1965*, the *GDP per capita* (current US$):

France ------ US$ 2,012
Italy -------- US$ 1,304
Argentina --- US$ 1,271
Venezuela --- US$ 1,059
Spain -------- US$ 772
Uruguay ------ US$ 701
Chile --------- US$ 699
Portugal ----- US$ 513

And as recent as *1980*, the *HDI*:

France ------ 0.722
Italy -------- 0.717
Spain -------- 0.691
Argentina --- 0.669
Uruguay ------ 0.658
Portugal ----- 0.639
Chile --------- 0.630
Venezuela --- 0.623




alesmarv said:


> You prove my point. You can post all the statistics you want, it doesn't change reality. I lived in Sao Paulo, my wife is from Sao Paulo and there right now as I type. Its a great city, I am in no way shape or form trying to belittle it. The fact though is that Sao Paulo is a mess, it doesn't come close to the poorest countries in the EU and that is as the wealthiest city in Brazil. Of course it has some extremely wealthy neighborhoods and very nice modern parts of the city that would match up well against any city in the world if you ignored some of the small details. You fail to realize that GDP figures are beyond meaningless, in fact they can be a negative sign. A GDP of 10,000(ppp) per capita in one country is not the same as a GDP of 10,000(ppp) per capita in another country. I suppose you think you can compare Brazil with Serbia as they have virtual equal GDP(ppp) per capita figures? Well believe me you cant, Serbia may have problems relative to europe but it is still a country that is on a simply another level from Brazil and the reality on the ground is strikingly different. Have you lived out side of Brazil? Because my wife had a similar distorted view until she got some real world experience.
> 
> Take what I say and use it as motivation because one issue I always had there was the complacency. I am not a German fan boy but do you know why they have always done well? Because they were never complacent with their situation and always kept striving forward.
> 
> In any case you may be interested in this: 91% of Sao Paulo residence feel unsafe and dissatisfied with their life in the city, 56% would leave if they could...http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/01/23/285169/brazilians-doubt-govs-crime-prevention/ This is reality.
> 
> And again I love Sao Paulo, I love Brasil, I want it to do well. I just don't want to see this false confidence and complacency because it will result in only one thing, stagnation and the status qua /rant.


:lol:

"I don't care about facts, as I can summarize everything using the word 'mess'." Don't you see how ridiculous is that?

BTW, I stopped reading your post after those absurd remarks. It would be a waste of time. I don't discuss people's "impressions". I discuss facts, data.


----------



## alesmarv

Yuri S Andrade said:


> Chile is about to:
> 
> *HDI 2011*
> Portugal --- 0.809
> Chile ------ 0.805
> 
> *GDP per capita 2012*
> Portugal --- US$ 19,768
> Chile ------ US$ 15,416
> 
> ^^
> The current trends suggest Chile will overcome Portugal by 2013 or 2014 on HDI and by 2016 or 2017 on GDP per capita.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> And I fail to see what's the big deal about. In *1965*, the *GDP per capita* (current US$):
> 
> France ------ US$ 2,012
> Italy -------- US$ 1,304
> Argentina --- US$ 1,271
> Venezuela --- US$ 1,059
> Spain -------- US$ 772
> Uruguay ------ US$ 701
> Chile --------- US$ 699
> Portugal ----- US$ 513
> 
> And as recent as *1980*, the *HDI*:
> 
> France ------ 0.722
> Italy -------- 0.717
> Spain -------- 0.691
> Argentina --- 0.669
> Uruguay ------ 0.658
> Portugal ----- 0.639
> Chile --------- 0.630
> Venezuela --- 0.623


Have you ever been to Portugal? Because they have built up extensive social infrastructure. This takes a very long time to achieve and Brazil is significantly behind in this most important department. No doubt the gap has been closing but its still very very wide.



> "I don't care about facts, as I can summarize everything using the word 'mess'." Don't you see how ridiculous is that?
> 
> BTW, I stopped reading your post after those absurd remarks. It would be a waste of time. I don't discuss people's "impressions". I discuss facts, data.


Well in that case I will agree to disagree with you. I am not stuck living there. I am curious to hear if you have ever lived outside of Brazil?


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## Tincho_Lavie

alesmarv have you ever been in Chile, Argentina, Uruguay or the south of Brazil?


----------



## alesmarv

Tincho_Lavie said:


> alesmarv have you ever been in Chile, Argentina, Uruguay or the south of Brazil?


yes, yes, yes and yes. All beautiful countries, beautiful cities, I have no complaints. I am just saying people should not try to compare them selves because the reality will just depress them. There are lots of social problems in all these countries and these things take time, money and patience to fix. I dont want people to be mistaking me for complaining, I am not, I want to see progress and I am saying how it is. I will happily invest and in the countries and I would live in any one of these countries. To fix these social problems is the most difficult thing to do by the way and by far requires the mot work and thats why often people think the gap is smaller then it really is.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Tincho_Lavie said:


> alesmarv have you ever been in Chile, Argentina, Uruguay or the south of Brazil?


And what's the point to know it? He lives in São Paulo and he's comparing it with the Balkans...




alesmarv said:


> Well in that case I will agree to disagree with you. I am not stuck living there. I am curious to hear if you have ever lived outside of Brazil?


Whether I lived or not outside Brazil is completely irrelevant, as my nationality, to this discussion.


----------



## Tincho_Lavie

alesmarv said:


> yes, yes, yes and yes. All beautiful countries, beautiful cities, I have no complaints. I am just saying people should not try to compare them selves because the reality will just depress them. There are lots of social problems in all these countries and these things take time, money and patience to fix. I dont want people to be mistaking me for complaining, I am not, I want to see progress and I am saying how it is. I will happily invest and in the countries and I would live in any one of these countries. To fix these social problems is the most difficult thing to do by the way and by far requires the mot work and thats why often people think the gap is smaller then it really is.


No, it's okay, i was just asking because i have some european friends who say exacly the oposite of what you say. I'm not talking about brazil, i'm talking about Argentina and Chile. But that's okay, different people, different opinions.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Yes, and as we're talking about "opinions", I know many expats living in Londrina, and they have a very positive view about the city. Actually, once I welcomed a British (usually the most judgemental expats) guy on these exchange programs. I don't remember the subject, and at some point I referred to Brazil as third world. He said promptly: "well, Londrina is 'first world' to me". So, different people, different opinions...

And just out of curiosity:

*GDP per capita 2011*

São Paulo state (41 million people) --- US$ 20,600

And now some Europeans:

Czech Republic-------- US$ 20,436
Slovakia ------------- US$ 17,644
Estonia -------------- US$ 16,568
Croatia -------------- US$ 14,182
Hungary -------------- US$ 14,050
Latvia --------------- US$ 13,618
Poland --------------- US$ 13,469
Lithuania ------------ US$ 13,262
Romania --------------- US$ 8,875
Montenegro ------------ US$ 7,317
Bulgaria -------------- US$ 7,308
Belarus --------------- US$ 5,845
Serbia ---------------- US$ 5,725
Macedonia ------------- US$ 5,162
Bosnia-Herzegovina ---- US$ 4,654
Albania --------------- US$ 4,020
Ucrania --------------- US$ 3,624
Moldova --------------- US$ 1,969

But São Paulo is a "mess"...


----------



## Tincho_Lavie

^^

Where did you take that information from? This inform say that sao paulo pbi per capita is 30.243 (in 2010)
ftp://ftp.ibge.gov.br/Contas_Regionais/2010/contasregionais2010.pdf
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Lista_de_estados_do_Brasil_por_PIB_per_capita


----------



## snt3000

Yuri S Andrade said:


> About Brasília's GDP, it's artificially inflated by Brazilian public sector, so it must be taken cautiously.
> 
> Sure, "photo evidence" is much better...


1. It's not "artificially" inflated. Actually it's not inflated at all, as government activity is always accounted for in GDP. And it is you, not me, who is taking nominal GDP as a measurement of development (esp. standard of living) as opposed to economic output (which nominal GDP truly measures). 

2. Don't be pathetic, I used photo evidence as a counterpoint to FAANS argument that Brasilia is all urbanized, which is not true. The photos are followed by links that you obviously didn't care to read. Besides, I have 1st hand experience since I live here and know people from the place, it's not like I need any statistics to prove it.

Anyway, back to my point, there are hundreds of serious studies that show the limitations of GDP and HDI as measures of development, and even UNDP itself acknowledges that: "Nonetheless several data gaps and quality issues remain. These include issues of inconsistency and incoherence between international data series and the timing of data revisions by different agencies. Select writings on issues of statistical methodology that serve as the theoretical background for the measurement of human development are also presented. These are a collection of background papers from different editions of the Report that highlight important measurement issues, major international initiatives and also innovative ways of measuring human development."

---------------------

Essentially, this thread will go nowhere because there isn't a single definition of what development is, and even the existing standards are arbitrary and flawed. So good luck with high school-style stats and forecasts, let me know when São Paulo is safe, clean, efficient, innovative and wealthy as Seoul or Tokyo and I'll come back to check the facts.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
1. I've never used GDP per capita as "the" measurement for development. I just regard it, as everybody else, as an important indicative. Said that, we have to watch the distortions caused in smaller administrative divisions, specially in municipalities. Distortions as big power plants, government, oil, etc.

2. I know Brasília's figures (including the inequality there) and I'm pretty aware local GDP per capita and even the HDI (which uses the GDP per capita) is somehow distorted. That doesn't mean Brasília could be close to reach the "developed" status.

And about your last paragraph, of course there are limitations on both GDP and HDI, but that shoudn't bother you as you prefer gray areas, talking about vague concepts as "clean", "innovative", "modern", "beautiful", etc. Liking it or not, São Paulo state has the GDP, has the HDI and has the poverty levels (people in the classes D and E, Census 2010) that place it (or leave it very close) to the developed status.





Tincho_Lavie said:


> ^^
> 
> Where did you take that information from? This inform say that sao paulo pbi per capita is 30.243 (in 2010)
> ftp://ftp.ibge.gov.br/Contas_Regionais/2010/contasregionais2010.pdf
> http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Lista_de_estados_do_Brasil_por_PIB_per_capita


I assumed São Paulo's share on Brazilian GDP would be same in 2011 as it was in 2010 (33.5% if I'm not mistaken). Dividing by the population (IBGE's 2011 Estimates), I got the US$ 20,000. On November, they'll release the 2011 GDP for states, and on December, for municipalities.


----------



## Enzo

I am sorry Yuri, but somehow I have to agree with alesmarv. He's got very good points. ( I'm not being bias about living in many places and knowing better, don't agree with that  )
Even though many datas show that Brazil is improving, and it is ( I believe in that), however, unfortunately Brazil still way behind those countries in the EU and North America (US & CA), especially and mostly when we're talking about infrastructure and social organization.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Sure Enzo, but we have the numbers to tell us that. No need to use personal experiences to counter the data. For instance, São Paulo is far far away from Massachusetts, but it's about to overcome Portugal and way way above Serbia, mentioned by Alesmarv.

And to make very clear, I'm discussing facts, trends, based on data available. To me, it makes no difference whatsoever whether São Paulo (or any other place) is going up or down, and even if that was the case, certainly my personal preferences wouldn't change the reality.

On the other hand, some people here on the thread is appalled by the concept by which Latin American countries (or parts of countries) could overcome parts of Western Europe, which is nonsensical. Places like Argentina, Uruguay, southern Brazil are offshoots of southern Europe (or Europe, in general). Therefore, a Chilean GDP higher than Spanish is as "shocking" as learning the Canadian being higher than British.


----------



## Enzo

^^ Some Countries in Europe are going down the hill, they sure gotta do something if they don't want to be overcome by some Latin American Countries. That's is a fact and I agree with that.

As a matter of fact, real data is the best way to have a debate about other countries, specially with people from different parts of the world.


----------



## Bronxwood

alesmarv said:


> This thread is full of people who simply have not traveled nor lived else where. I am born and lived for many years in europe, lived for over 20 years in north america, and fairly recently lived in south america, and of course traveled allot, mostly through europe and latin and north america (so i wont speak for asia and the middle east)
> 
> There is NOT one country in the EU that you could compare to a any south or central american country, not one. I love latin america but it is a different world and none of the cities or countries have the social infrastructure and quality of life that european countries have in the EU. Not even close to Russia which people love to hate on.
> 
> So when people talk about Greece or Portugal or Spain and how they are going to be some sort of developing country on the level of say latin american countries then these people simply dont know what they are talking about. The gap is enormous, its not just gdp figures, its the situation on the ground and the social infrastructure which takes a long long time to build up. My wife as a example who is from Sao Paulo was for a long time really high about Brazil and south america, always talked about how its going to take over europe and how europe is broke. AN I didnt blame her as that kind of bs was talked about allot down there on the news and among the people, yet reality was very different which of course I knew when I lived there. So then I went back to Czech republic for a few months with my wife, not a rich western european country but also not the poorest. When she saw the infrastructure, especially the social infrastructure and how everything worked, she changed her tune very quickly and I have not heard ONCE since then a single comment about how Brazil and south america is the future. Which is sad because I love latin america but reality is reality. The point is any of these european countries that people like to dump on, and for good reasons, will continue to be tremendously better shape then as a example any of the latin american countries, and for a very very long time.
> 
> It just bugs me sometimes when people try to fight so much about things they clearly know nothing about. The reality is very different from what your news paper tells you or some gdp statistics or what ever show you, statistics mean very little. The social infrastructure that is built up is not possible to calculate and you generally have to be on the ground living there to see it. /rant





FAAN said:


> ^^
> Certainly, the level and very different still it decadent Portugal and Spain are developed countries, but you cannot say that there isn't cities in Latin America that does not compare to the level of EU, if you speak it, you surely don't know nothing about Buenos Aires, Santiago, Brasilia, Curitiba or Mexico City, as well numerous other smaller cities.


I have to agree with alesmarv. It's easy to feed into the hype about the rise of Latin America, and don't get me wrong, it is rising! And fast. But flying into Mexico City, walking out of the airport, driving onto the highway and seeing the reality of this Latin American country is very different than what we see on SSC. 

This country is touted as among the best performers in terms of development in Latin America, having a quality of life above that of Brazil. We see the pictures of first world districts like Santa Fe, Polanco and Interlomas in Mexico City. But contrary to what I believed before, I realize now that this country will need decades for it to achieve the level of development seen in USA, Canada and even Portugal. The infrastructure is simply not up to par with what is seen even in Eastern Europe.


----------



## Name user 1

haikiller11 said:


> Europe is still far ahead in term of social development imo. Even bankrupcity countries such as Italy and Spain are still socially better than most of wealthy Asian states ( Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan) so I don't think that Latin America has any chance to outperform Europe in term of social development in near future.


btw- Italy and France average citizen by holding wealth {(financial and non-financial assets - liabilities) = net wealth} are among richest citizens in the world 

few interesting wealth reports from 2012

link here

and here about nation wealth

GDP alone is distorted measurement because foreign companies producing or assembling goods in one country but PROFIT (wealth) is being transferred back to home nation
- look at balance of payments of nations


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## Yuri S Andrade

Bronxwood said:


> I have to agree with alesmarv. It's easy to feed into the hype about the rise of Latin America, and don't get me wrong, it is rising! And fast. But flying into Mexico City, walking out of the airport, driving onto the highway and seeing the reality of this Latin American country is very different than what we see on SSC.
> 
> This country is touted as among the best performers in terms of development in Latin America, having a quality of life above that of Brazil. We see the pictures of first world districts like Santa Fe, Polanco and Interlomas in Mexico City. But contrary to what I believed before, I realize now that this country will need decades for it to achieve the level of development seen in USA, Canada and even Portugal. The infrastructure is simply not up to par with what is seen even in Eastern Europe.


It keeps amazing me that people still think their personal perceptions tell more than hard data.

Other thing that's always funny here in SSC is this kind of reasoning: very poor areas in Mexico City are reality, and the only reality. Santa Fe, Polanco, on the other hand, are imaginary places. Go figure...

And yes, Portugal is ahead of Mexico. Where did you read something different here? Portugal's GDP per capita is almost as twice as bigger than Mexican and its HDI is considerably higher. On my map, for instance, Portugal is two colours above Mexico.


----------



## alesmarv

Yuri S Andrade said:


> It keeps amazing me that people still think their personal perceptions tell more than hard data.
> 
> Other thing that's always funny here in SSC is this kind of reasoning: very poor areas in Mexico City are reality, and the only reality. Santa Fe, Polanco, on the other hand, are imaginary places. Go figure...
> 
> And yes, Portugal is ahead of Mexico. Where did you read something different here? Portugal's GDP per capita is almost as twice as bigger than Mexican and its HDI is considerably higher. On my map, for instance, Portugal is two colours above Mexico.


I think it is great that you are proud of your country and if you are under 30 I strongly suggest you take advantage of the youth work exchange program because you will become a better person and will be able to help your country significantly more by getting a better perspective of reality. 

Statistics are not particularly useful, that's the point. In Brazil 6% of the population lives in slums, the crime rate is incredibly high, income inequality is among the highest in the world, the major cities have some of the worst congestion in the world, often unreliable infrastructure, poor organization and layout. These are the facts. These things are incredibly hard to fix and take time. Take for instance Czech republic which I am intimately familiar with, gypsies make up 3% of the population, they represent 60% of the prison population, 30% of chronic repeat offenders, are 80% unemployed, their children are 28 times more likely to attend special education schools and they have a birth rate 4 times the national average. Do you know how much money the country has sunk in to trying to fix these problems? Huge amounts and they have been trying for the past 100 years and its still not fixed. Its these little things that are incredibly hard to fix. For Brazil to eliminate the slum population and bring income inequality down to normal levels, develop efficient social organization and build up reliable infrastructure is going to take a long time. Portugal does not have these problems, there is good income equality, organization, reliable infrastructure and no slums. For Brazil to get to that level will take a long time and the country is no where close to getting to that level.

You know I can go live in say Morumbi in SP and never leave, have a high paying job and live a life as good as anyone in the western world, I can be just as productive and statistics can support this. But to do this I would have to ignore the slums a few km's away, the daily murders in them, the congestion, blackouts, unmaintained and inadequate sidewalks and roads, the corruption and the waste. I can have a factory that produces say 10 cars a day but these cars will only last 10 years on the roads, and I will have to make 10 more, looks good when you look at the statistics when you compare to somewhere else but the reality is your not really ahead. Statistics are there to help but not give you the real picture. Brazil is on the right track, no doubt about that, but right now the gap between Brazil and even Portugal is still huge and will still take a long time to close (and it is closing, slowly), your idea that Brazil is about to overtake Portugal is a illusion.

I am not trying to hate on the country, trust me, I am just trying to put things in perspective so you can actually work to "really" surpassing some of the developed countries because you cant do that if you end up content with your situation and "think" you have surpassed them when you really have not.

If there is one thing I would recommend to ANYONE living in Brazil, or anywhere for that matter, it would be to take advantage of the youth work exchange programs while they can to get a real perspective of the outside world. That is how you can best help your country, and help your self.

At the end of the day well founded perspective is all that matters.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

alesmarv said:


> I think it is great that you are proud of your country and if you are under 30 I strongly suggest you take advantage of the youth work exchange program because you will become a better person and will be able to help your country significantly more by getting a better perspective of reality.


I'm not "proud of my country". Where did you take this from?




alesmarv said:


> Statistics are not particularly useful, that's the point. In Brazil 6% of the population lives in slums, the crime rate is incredibly high, income inequality is among the highest in the world, the major cities have some of the worst congestion in the world, often unreliable infrastructure, poor organization and layout. These are the facts. These things are incredibly hard to fix and take time.


Statistics are not useful?!?!?! What's useful then? Your baseless opinions?

And could you please quantify those factors? I want numbers not a bunch of meaningless words. And what crime has to do with it? New York's crime rates in the 1980's is way way higher than today's São Paulo.




alesmarv said:


> Take for instance Czech republic which I am intimately familiar with, gypsies make up 3% of the population, they represent 60% of the prison population, 30% of chronic repeat offenders, are 80% unemployed, their children are 28 times more likely to attend special education schools and they have a birth rate 4 times the national average. Do you know how much money the country has sunk in to trying to fix these problems? Huge amounts and they have been trying for the past 100 years and its still not fixed. Its these little things that are incredibly hard to fix.


I suspected racism was behind your posts... Are you from Eastern Europe, right?




alesmarv said:


> For Brazil to eliminate the slum population and bring income inequality down to normal levels, develop efficient social organization and build up reliable infrastructure is going to take a long time. Portugal does not have these problems, there is good income equality, organization, reliable infrastructure and no slums. For Brazil to get to that level will take a long time and the country is no where close to getting to that level.


Brazil is quickly eliminating its slums and by 2020 they'll be negligible. And yes, Portugal still has slums. And just up to few years ago, they had huge ones.

And where did I compare Brazil with Portugal? I was talking about São Paulo, which has now a GDP per capita higher than the Portuguese and an HDI slight lower.




alesmarv said:


> You know I can go live in say Morumbi in SP and never leave, have a high paying job and live a life as good as anyone in the western world, I can be just as productive and statistics can support this. But to do this I would have to ignore the slums a few km's away, the daily murders in them, the congestion, blackouts, unmaintained and inadequate sidewalks and roads, the corruption and the waste. I can have a factory that produces say 10 cars a day but these cars will only last 10 years on the roads, and I will have to make 10 more, looks good when you look at the statistics when you compare to somewhere else but the reality is your not really ahead. Statistics are there to help but not give you the real picture. Brazil is on the right track, no doubt about that, but right now the gap between Brazil and even Portugal is still huge and will still take a long time to close (and it is closing, slowly), your idea that Brazil is about to overtake Portugal is a illusion.


Like Western World? Brazil is already part of it. Since 1500 and counting. About crime, I've already addressed this. New York's rates were way higher than São Paulo's just 20 years ago. So, the 1980's New York was not developed? 




alesmarv said:


> I am not trying to hate on the country, trust me, I am just trying to put things in perspective so you can actually work to "really" surpassing some of the developed countries because you cant do that if you end up content with your situation and "think" you have surpassed them when you really have not.


It's irrelevant your hatred or love for São Paulo. We're discussing facts, data and you still brought nothing here. Just your preconceived and bigoted ideas.




alesmarv said:


> If there is one thing I would recommend to ANYONE living in Brazil, or anywhere for that matter, it would be to take advantage of the youth work exchange programs while they can to get a real perspective of the outside world. That is how you can best help your country, and help your self.


Stop assuming stuff about me.




alesmarv said:


> At the end of the day well founded perspective is all that matters.


"Founded"? There's nothing "founded" in your posts.


----------



## deandrade

If you want a simple tool in order to compare inequality in different countries, you can use the Gini coefficient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

This is just the Wikipedia page, however you can see that in general you have a more equal society in Europe than in the rest of the world. And this was produced through centuries of cultural and social fights between classes, which are still to be seen outside the "Old World" (for some aspects, even in the U.S. I would say).

You cannot obtain such a progress with simple economic development, but you have to wait for more complicate mechanisms to emerge. Anyway, one might say that, given the modern communication technologies, this characteristic time could be lower than the one required in Europe in the past centuries.


----------



## Atomicus

Phayer said:


> *It may be hard to say that an American*, but I think today Russia developed. `-`


I thought there was no beef against Russia anymore among US americans (minus republicans I guess?).


----------



## Dimethyltryptamine

+1 to alesmarv. Numbers don't always prove everything. Like the physicians per 1000 people. Brasília may have more per 1000 people than Canada, Australia, Germany and the USA... but that doesn't mean the health system in Brazil is better than any of the above.

Numbers can be misleading. Period.


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## Yuri S Andrade

^^
I'm not saying Brasília has a better health system, but what matters then? It seems like when numbers clash with your preconceived (and frankly bigoted) views, you quickly dismiss them without further explanation. "'X country' is superior, because I'm saying so. Period!"


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## Dimethyltryptamine

Are you thick? I said numbers _can_ be misleading, and gave you an example. You then call me a bigot and insinuate that I am some how trying to assert my countries superiority over Brazil, when in fact all I am trying to do is help you see the point others are trying to make? Please...


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## mexico15

Stop guys! Sao Paulo and Brasilia are not countries !


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## Yuri S Andrade

Dimethyltryptamine said:


> Are you thick? I said numbers _can_ be misleading, and gave you an example. You then call me a bigot and insinuate that I am some how trying to assert my countries superiority over Brazil, when in fact all I am trying to do is help you see the point others are trying to make? Please...


What point others are trying to make? They just talked vaguely about things like: "clean", "innovative", "modern", "beautiful", "infrastructure", etc. And you jumped on the thread to defend this absurd line of argumentation.


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## wjfox

These type of threads aren't permitted here, sorry.


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