# MISC | 3rd Rail Powered Railways



## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

I'm wondering how many Commuter Rail systems in the world operate using the 3rd Rail. Ikno the Long Island Railroad and Metro North do use 3rd Rail to power there trains here in the US. I know some British systems do , but any other systems use the 3rd Rail?


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

The whole southern England uses third rail: http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/british-isles/british-isles.gif

Also the mountain lines Villefranche-La Tour de Carol (Cerdagne, France) and St Gervais-Chamonix-Vallorcine-Martigny (France-Switzerland) use mostly a third rail.

The French part of the Fréjus railway (but not the main tunnel itself, originally three-phase AC and now 3 kV DC) was converted from third rail to overhead in the 70s.

Two suburban lineas around Milan and Naples in Italy were originally electrified with a third rail but soon (50s or even before) converted to overhead lines. Also some lines around Paris.


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## sidney_jec (Jun 10, 2005)

Boston has a line that uses 3rd rail.
Kolkata in India has metro which uses a 3rd rail too


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

sidney_jec said:


> Boston has a line that uses 3rd rail.
> Kolkata in India has metro which uses a 3rd rail too


I was talking about Commuter Rail systems and not Metro systems.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Paris Saint Lazare suburban network used the third rail until the 1970's. 
It was also the case of other lines.

The last line with a third rail in Paris suburban network was the Moulineaux line, it was closed in 1993 and reopened as a tramway (T2).









Picture by Daniel Richer


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## sidney_jec (Jun 10, 2005)

Nexis said:


> I was talking about Commuter Rail systems and not Metro systems.


oops


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The Berlin S-Bahn system uses 3rd rail for its power supply as well.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

Coccodrillo said:


> The whole southern England uses third rail: http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/british-isles/british-isles.gif


Bollocks. Only the lines south of river Thames and London Underground use 3rd rail.


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## sotonsi (Feb 6, 2007)

Err, you are also inaccurate, flierfy, while correcting the "the whole southern England uses third rail" inaccurate statement.

1)Parts of the North London Line (west of Acton Central, Camden Road - Stratford (though trains now use OHLE from Dalston eastwards) and West London line (from not far south of Willesden Junction southwards) are 3rd rail electrified and north of the Thames, likewise the ELL and Watford DC lines. All these lines are part of the London Overground network for those that don't know.
2)Parts of the South West Trains network is north of the Thames and 3rd rail electrified - bridges just west of Richmond, between Staines and Egham, Datchet and Windsor, Kingston and Hampton Wick and Barnes Bridge. 24 stations in all north of the Thames.
3)The London Underground uses 4th rail electrification (though the 3rd rail is also electrified).

Therefore, it is not only the lines south of Thames, nor London Underground using 3rd rail </pedant>

What Coccodrillo ought to have said is that most of the old Southern Region still in passenger service uses 3rd rail (Uckfield branch, Ore-Ashford and Basingstoke-Exeter-beyond being the exceptions). This would exclude the London Overground lines with 3rd rail electrification, but would be correct. It's also worth pointing out that, while all the network would be used by commuters (and not just London ones), a lot of it isn't "commuter rail".

Also, Merseyrail (Liverpool area commuter network) uses 3rd Rail electrification on the Northern and Wirral lines.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Germany

S-Bahn Hamburg


3 en 1 by Xavier Bayod, on Flickr

S-Bahn Berlin


ringbahn by Loso, on Flickr


In Japan there are a couple of railway lines with third-rail around Osaka, although these are extensions of Metro lines they are still seen as separate commuter rail lines. 


Kita-Osaka Kyuko Railway - an extension of the Osaka Municipal Subway Midosuji Line.







Kintetsu Keihanna Line - an extension of the Osaka Municipal Subway Chuo Line.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

*Park Avenue Portal and Embankment
*


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

Pretty much then entire south east of England is 3rd rail. There is also a large 3rd rail network around Liverpool in the north west...

We also have the world's fastest 3rd rail train...Class 442, 108Mph










Sutton Valley Line, Class 377 in the south...










Merseyrail Network at Liverpool South Parkway station, in the north west (Liverpool)


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

flierfy said:


> Bollocks. Only the lines south of river Thames and London Underground use 3rd rail.


If you look at that map, you can see that most of the south east is 3rd rail...like 90%?


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## sotonsi (Feb 6, 2007)

poshbakerloo said:


> If you look at that map, you can see that most of the south east is 3rd rail...like 90%?


What, Oxford, Essex and Herts have 3rd rail?

Depends how you define South East... 

It is basically, give or take a few bits (take off Uckfield, Hastings-Ore and Basingstoke - Devon, add on the Merseyrail network, Watford DC lines, NLL and WLL), the lines that were Southern region when it existed. That's the easiest definition.


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## spindoctor (Apr 28, 2007)

Bangkok skytrain.






New BTS skytrain


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## aliesperet (Jul 3, 2010)

And again, third rail commuter, not metro/subway

Ligne Saint-Gervais - Vallorcine, Haute-savoie, France


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

poshbakerloo said:


> We also have the world's fastest 3rd rail train...Class 442, 108Mph


It has the record, but I would say the class 395s would be the fastest, even when using 3rd rail.

I have to say though, the ride on the 442s is excellent for a 30 year old train.

More pics:

Class 460 Gatwick Express, only 2 left in this role, being replaced by the older but more numerous class 442s.










Class 458, likely the class 460s will join these ones with SouthWestTrains










And some heavy sparking in the recent snow






Vid Salfords in Surrey. Here can be seen classes 319, 377, 442, 460 and (165/166 diesel 3-car units)


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

Nexis thought you might like this as well. Available in HD.


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## TheKorean (Apr 11, 2010)

I hear Eurostar trains convert to 3rd rail after entering Britain somewhere.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

TheKorean said:


> I hear Eurostar trains *used to* convert to 3rd rail after entering Britain somewhere.


fix

After the opening of the High Speed 1 the 3rd rail equipment was removed.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)




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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)




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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

^^ steam, EMUs, tube (0'52" & 1'15"), & the Hastings DMU (2'23" -- last train featured)


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

*Valhalla *







DSCN3672 by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

*Park Ave Portal...*


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

featuring Standard tube stock 1927 -- I love its crazy noisiness too​


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)




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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)




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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)




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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

-- South Croydon to Victoria ride sometime during the 1930s​


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)




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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

trainrover said:


>


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

trainrover said:


>


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)




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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

-- finally, some vintage featuring good old fashioned sparking​


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## elnordico (Jun 4, 2010)

Buenos Aires has third rail system. 2 private but not so good enough operators: TBA(wide 1676mm) and Metrovias(standard gauge). TBA operates Mitre and Sarmiento lines, and Metrovias Urquiza line. As soon as I get video, I`ll put it


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## elnordico (Jun 4, 2010)

A video from a TBA line:


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## elnordico (Jun 4, 2010)

A video from metrovias:


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

Interestingly, I read in an article recently, that the cost of electrification (in this case re-electrification) has dropped by such a significant amount, that the UK government is strongly considering converting all of the southern 3rd rail powered lines to overhead caternary, citing improvements in snowy weather, better safety, and a higher current able to be carried.


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## AndreiB (Dec 2, 2009)

I would think there would be more of a priority to electrify mainlines, or branches of electric mainlines to eliminate diesel under the wires rather than change a system which is already electrified.

The main problem I see in terms of electrification is the presence of heavy trafficked diesel mainlines, unelectrified branches forcing diesel trains hundred of kms under the wires and the lack of electric trainsets forcing the usage of diesel trains even completely under the wires.

I think these problems should be addressed first if electrification costs have fallen.


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

AndreiB said:


> I think these problems should be addressed first if electrification costs have fallen.


they probably will be done first, but the southern region is still a good option because it will reduce power supply costs, and the trains can mostly be retrofitted with pantographs, and those that dont they operate on certain routes, which could be done last when the units become life expired anyway.

in terms of mainline electrification, the great western has been announced, network rail are putting together the business plan for the midland mainline, and bombardier are working on a pantograph car to add in to the cross country sets to make them hybrid and not be using diesel power under wires. lots of things already in the pipeline.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Are they going with Alternate Current?


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Yes, in fact BR already decided to do so in 1956.
Apart from that EC directives state that unless you already have extensive 1,5 kV DC, 3kV DC or 15 kV 16,7 Hz AC electrification new systems must be built with 25 kV 50 Hz AC.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

M-NL said:


> Yes, in fact BR already decided to do so in 1956.
> Apart from that EC directives state that unless you already have extensive 1,5 kV DC, 3kV DC or 15 kV 16,7 Hz AC electrification new systems must be built with 25 kV 50 Hz AC.


Actually the EC directive do allow 1.5 and 3 kV DC, and 15 Kv 16.6 Hz AC even for new systems. This because the current state of the art traction vehicles makes the overhead tension and frequency largely a non issue. 25 Kv is a "target" but not mandatory.
However, unless you already have extensive electrification at some other voltage or frequency there is no point not to use 25Kv AC, as this is the easiest to implement.


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

It is a UK directive that states any new electrified track must be 25kV AC unless it is an extension to an existing system of electrification for which an exemption must be sought.

The only plan to convert at this stage is the Southampton - Baskingstoke section of the South West Mainline, as part of the Electric Spine electrification project. NR will then use this as a base-case for the conversion of the entire remaining 3rd rail network in the south east.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

*Scarsdale Station along the Harlem line*

*Commuter Bike Parking *


Commuter Bike Parking at Scarsdale Station by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


Commuter Bike Parking at Scarsdale Station by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

*Downtown Station side*


Metro North - Harlem line - Scarsdale Station by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

*Trackside*


Metro North - Harlem line - Scarsdale Station by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


Metro North - Harlem line - Scarsdale Station by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


Metro North - Harlem line - Scarsdale Station by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)




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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

^^ Thank you, I enjoyed that one


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

More London videos, mostly third rail. Goes all over the place, starting on the Tonbridge Mainline and Southeastern routes, moving to Thameslink in the ajoining area and then to the East Anglia routes north of the river, including a bit of LU Central Line, DLR and the Olympic stadium..


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)




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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

The majority of trains there now shortened is astonishing :uh:


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

Not _quite_ sure what you mean, but joining and splitting occurs all day long to match passenger demand.


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

Sped up footage at the end of platform 3/4 at London Bridge. It appears this is rush hour, due to presence the 11/12-car class 375 and 12-car class 377 consists, and lack FCC services (except one). This station throat handles around 80 trains per hour in the peaks (second only to Clapham Junction) and serves all of Kent and much of Surrey, East and West Sussex. Platform 6 at this station has the status of busiest mainline platform in all of Europe, and you can see the queue here to get in to the platform a few tracks to the right of the camera position. Trains can often stack 3 or 4 deep as they shuffle towards the station one at each signal.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

some recent arcing footage from the LIRR


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## ElectroSoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

And my location today is.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_Line,_Isle_of_Wight

The entire network is 650v DC, (I would be surprised if it ever upgrades too), it is under week 4 of 10 weeks of engineering work meaning trains only travel 1 mile 19 chains From Ryde Pier head to Ryde St Johns Road.

The signals are mostly SR pattern upper quadrant semaphore signals with some colour light repeaters as can be seen there is also a rare instance of a position shunt signal for yard working of the semaphore type (black disc with a yellow horizontal band)
The STOP boards (PLB) are there because of the engineering work
































































And the stock that uses the line...










Stabling in the lines one and only TMD.










All photos are taken by myself 09/02/2015


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Cute little system , any plans to restore some of the abandoned service.


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## ElectroSoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

I very much doubt it it seems like the service as is is enough. It is old and by our terms long past its sell by date but it seems to serve the users well. It's cheap and fast and kinda fits in around here.

Only couple more days of it and I'm back to the modern world 😄


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## I(L)WTC (Jan 30, 2010)

Buenos Aires 750 V Third rail Lines Mitre (6 coachs) and Sarmiento (9 coachs) (150 km aprox.)

Sarmiento Line





Mitre Line


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

I've been watching this video and noticed that for on a large part of the network there is a fourth rail, usually left off-center between the running rails. Sometimes it looks as if there are cables connected to it. When the power rail ends also this rail ends. But the strange thing is, this rail seems to below the tops of the running rails, there are sections without this fourth rail (as in the entire length of stations, not just short distances) and the fourth rail is also not at a fixed distance from the left rail. On bridges and viaducts it is closer to the running rail and even a fifth rail is visible. What is this fourth rail for?


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## tunnel owl (May 19, 2013)

M-NL said:


> What is this fourth rail for?


Redirecting DC to substation I guess. like it´s done on London Underground and partly in Milan Metro via 4th rail. It´s connected via cable and in case of interruptions surrent is redirected via normal rail. But I cannot confirm this.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

That was my first thought too, but the fourth rail seems rusty on top. A contact shoe would have made it appear shiny. Also a side contact would not make sense, because it would hit the rail at every switch, because it has to extend below the running rail height. Could it be some kind of communication antenna? When you look at 34m22s there is no rail, but a kind of flat plate.

It could of course also be as simple as a guide rail in case of derailment.


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