# Decay in Detroit.



## herodotus (Sep 11, 2002)

Just came back from a weekend trip to the Motor City. There will be several threads forthcoming, but I might as well give you the crappy stuff first. While there is plenty of grit on the Westside of Detroit, the Eastside is a whole nother ballgame. The West has pretty much what you might find in any older city, grungy hoods, decent run of the mill type hoods, very nice hoods, and various pockets of decay. On the other hand, the decay in certain sections of the Eastside is astounding. 



A nasty note left in Mexicantown.

















































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































Stay tuned for the good stuff.


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## Quall (Feb 15, 2006)

It's certainly dumpy and repulsive, which makes for a very interesting compilation.


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## lkm370 (Jun 24, 2006)

what a sh*t hole, but what do you expect from the city that re-elected the most corrupt mayor in america just because hes black.


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## Quall (Feb 15, 2006)

Oh, and what was this place? Abondoned, I take it? Must've been quite the building in its prime.



>


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

That was a fascinating tour, and a valuable cautionary tale... talk about a Boulevard of Broken Dreams. Thanks so much for taking the pictures, and posting them. By the way, did you feel unsafe in any of those neighbourhoods?


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## Europa. (Jan 14, 2007)

looks like a war zone, looks just as bad as some parts of Richmond hno:


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## herodotus (Sep 11, 2002)

lkm370 said:


> what a sh*t hole, but what do you expect from the city that re-elected the most corrupt mayor in america just because hes black.


I doubt that Kwame was reelected simply because he is Black. After all, his opponent was also Black.


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## herodotus (Sep 11, 2002)

Taller said:


> That was a fascinating tour, and a valuable cautionary tale... talk about a Boulevard of Broken Dreams. Thanks so much for taking the pictures, and posting them. By the way, did you feel unsafe in any of those neighbourhoods?


I know when and where to take snaps. Early on Sunday is the best time to shoot in bad areas. Avoid taking pictures of young men hanging on corners.


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## lkm370 (Jun 24, 2006)

herodotus said:


> I doubt that Kwame was reelected simply because he is Black. After all, his opponent was also Black.


still, the guy used city money to buy his wife a car, how could anyone re-elect him?!


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## Bond James Bond (Aug 23, 2002)

Detroit's decline began looooong before Kwame became mayor. It's been going downhill since at least the 50's.

Great pics.


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## OMH (Aug 21, 2007)

OMG...this is why i believe the american city model really isn't sustainable...


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## Tharsis Montes (Oct 14, 2007)

Whoaa, very interesting pics. Thanks for sharing =]


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## Chicagoflo (Oct 8, 2007)

Definition of ghetto?


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## zergcerebrates (Jan 23, 2004)

OH wow, what happened here? Why are there so many abandoned homes. You know what this area is perfect for zombie films.


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

TRMD, that is the old train station. It is really embarassing that this can happen in one of the world's richest countries. What a disposable attitude Americans have. Aside form the automobile, I blame the citizens of Detroit for allowing this to happen to its downtown and environs. Citizens have recently brought back cities in this country, not governments. Philadephia, like Detroit, has extremely corrupt politics but its residents are too stubborn to abandon its core. Philadelphia also refused to allow highways to slice down South Street and other parts of the city. Instead the reverse happened, downtown flourished. It also helps that Philadelphia has a mixed business economy and a stable location in the megapolis. I am not saying that Philadelphia is the prime role model for urban renewal but there was a time when Detroit and Philadelphia were both in the similar shoes. 

Any city that allows one industry to dominate its economy is headed for disaster. In this case it's the auto industry. 

The citizens of Detroit simply don't care about their city. If they did they would not have allowed expressways to rip through its heart and neighborhoods would not be sliced up left to revert to prairie land. All those rich white folk turned their backs on the regions prime metropolis and left it to rot. I blame Grosse Pointe and Bloomfield Hills.

Sadly, Detroit is so far gone it is nearly impossible to salvage. It is a modern day Pompeii and a vital lesson to be learned. 

It must have been one of the most amazing cities in its heyday. Brilliant urban planning and an extensive trolley system gone forever. Seeing that Hudson building get demolished was heartbreaking...and for what?

It could have been another Chicago.


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## lkm370 (Jun 24, 2006)

anyone have any pics of detroit before the decay?


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

Wow... Detroit in the 20's was a city headed somewhere... almost criminal what has been allowed to happen. Detroit is not a long drive from here, but no one ever thinks to go there for a weekend visit. What a shame.


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

TRMD said:


> Oh, and what was this place? Abondoned, I take it? Must've been quite the building in its prime.


it is the only interesting building in the hole thread. 

really incredible stuff, with abandoned American dream houses, empty streets... a ghost town.

871,121 people in 370.2 km².


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## koolkid (Apr 17, 2006)

The architecture is stunning! Too bad all those beautiful houses are in such bad condition. A pity really, theres so much potential. Awesome thread, this is actually the first time that I see Detroit's decaying neighbs. To think Detroit was such a prosperous city with almost a MILLION inhabitants. Now, now it's a different story. I think theres only about 600,000 people left.


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

1820 1,422 
—
1830 2,222 56.3%
1840 9,102 309.6%
1850 21,019 130.9%
1860 45,619 117.0%
1870 79,577 74.4%
1880 116,340 46.2%
1890 205,877 77.0%
1900 285,704 38.8%
1910 465,766 63.0%
1920 993,678 113.3%
1930 1,568,662 57.9%
1940 1,623,452 3.5%
1950 1,849,568 13.9%
1960 1,670,144 -9.7%
1970 1,514,063 -9.3%
1980 1,203,368 -20.5%
1990 1,027,974 -14.6%
2000 951,270 -7.5%


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## urbanfan89 (May 30, 2007)

OMG...those pictures look like some B-rated sci-fi movie. It's really a tragedy that the world's richest country allows this to happen. Why isn't the city council or someone moving to demolish those abandoned buildings? At least that way they can start from a (nearly) clean slate.


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## illmatic774 (Jul 20, 2005)

They've demolished a TON. Thats why there is no longer block after block of empty shells (i mean literally; a jungle of condemned homes is much scarier than urban prairies). Now they are just urban prairies with derelict structures scattered.

Kwame has demolished many those abandoned properties on a ginormous scale.


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## MDguy (Dec 16, 2006)

WOW! Incrdible tour. I went a few months ago, and Downtown was Really nice! Than I got a little out of the city and I felt almost bad for Detroit, the way it has been neglected, its beautiful architecture gone to waste, and in its hayday, was so incredible. Rows upon Rows and more rows of Abandoment. It reminds me of Baltimore, the pop was near 1 mil in 50s and than dramatically droped to 630,000 with sooo many abandoned rowhomes, but not on the scale of this. I hope in the next 100 - 200 years, Detroit realizes its mistakes, and attemps to at least fix them, because it doesn't seem like they are trying, and if they are, they aren't doing as good of a job as they could or should!


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## -KwK345- (May 23, 2007)

yuck


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## Brisbaner21 (Jul 17, 2007)

This is what suprised me. I had never seen anything like this when I visited. You just don't see this in Australia.


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## schmidt (Dec 5, 2002)

Most of my city is better than that, and I live in Brazil, with 1/10 of the resources this city has.

It's indeed a pitty, actually a shame that such a big city in such a big and rich country ends up like that. It's ok that the auto industry went down, but there are certainly other oportunities to be exploited in the area. 

What about Windsor, its Canadian counterpart? Is it in such a bad condition as well?

Well, at least one learns things from pics like this, no country in this planet is perfect.


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## Frika (Jan 15, 2006)

urbanfan89 said:


> OMG...those pictures look like some B-rated sci-fi movie. It's really a tragedy that the world's richest country allows this to happen. Why isn't the city council or someone moving to demolish those abandoned buildings? At least that way they can start from a (nearly) clean slate.


Allow it to happen? The lack of gov't intervention is the precise reason why it is the richest country!


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## algonquin (Sep 24, 2004)

schmidt said:


> Most of my city is better than that, and I live in Brazil, with 1/10 of the resources this city has.
> 
> It's indeed a pitty, actually a shame that such a big city in such a big and rich country ends up like that. It's ok that the auto industry went down, but there are certainly other oportunities to be exploited in the area.
> 
> ...


Windsor won't win any beauty awards, but it's nothing remotely close to the levels of decay that Detroit reaches.


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## urbanfan89 (May 30, 2007)

schmidt said:


> What about Windsor, its Canadian counterpart? Is it in such a bad condition as well?


Windsor is okay for the most park, in that it doesn't have extensive urban decay. It used to be that the city depended on car assembly plants that supplied Detroit. Then about 20 years ago the government decided they could make money by building a casino there and attracting people from across the river. It was a huge success and quickly bars, strip clubs, Cuban cigar stores, etc sprang up to take advantage of Canada's more relaxed social policies.

That was also when the Canadian $ was much lower, so Windsor avoided the disaster of Detroit. But it's also seen economic hardship, as the closing auto plants have thrown many out of work (giving it the highest unemployment rate in all of Canada). And now, the Canadian $ is above the US$ so that tourism has declined significantly and the auto plants are firing even more people. So the city is currently going through hard times, but it's never been anywhere near as bad as Detroit.


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## ilovechicago91 (Jun 12, 2007)

philadweller said:


>


wow, what could have been. hell what was....hno:


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## go_leafs_go02 (Jan 16, 2007)

Taller said:


> Wow... Detroit in the 20's was a city headed somewhere... almost criminal what has been allowed to happen. Detroit is not a long drive from here, but no one ever thinks to go there for a weekend visit. What a shame.


i know..every time i look at shots like these..be it in Detroit or Niagara Falls, NY, or even Buffalo. I'm shocked.

because I don't think that you can find a place really that looks that bad anywhere in Ontario. Hamilton might give it a small run for a few blocks, but still.


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## algonquin (Sep 24, 2004)

go_leafs_go02 said:


> i know..every time i look at shots like these..be it in Detroit or Niagara Falls, NY, or even Buffalo. I'm shocked.
> 
> because I don't think that you can find a place really that looks that bad anywhere in Ontario. Hamilton might give it a small run for a few blocks, but still.


Hamilton's worst is in no league with Detroit, Pittsburgh or Niagara Falls NY.


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## go_leafs_go02 (Jan 16, 2007)

algonquin said:


> Hamilton's worst is in no league with Detroit, Pittsburgh or Niagara Falls NY.


no no, but on a local scale..or a provincial scale. Lower Mountain/East Hamilton is the worst urban area of Ontario in my opinion.

Thats why I said a small run, there are certain places that compare, but it is very limited.


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## urbanfan89 (May 30, 2007)

I've driven through downtown detroit once, and it felt really scary to see skyscrapers everywhere yet practically no one on the streets. Does anyone else get this feeling?


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## koolkid (Apr 17, 2006)

illmatic774 said:


> They've demolished a TON. Thats why there is no longer block after block of empty shells (i mean literally; a jungle of condemned homes is much scarier than urban prairies). Now they are just urban prairies with derelict structures scattered.
> 
> Kwame has demolished many those abandoned properties on a ginormous scale.


What's the point of demolishing everything? I think those abandoned houses/ buildings look beautiful. They need to be restored. Sure, others are extensively damaged and need to be razed but I think it'd be better to conserve Detroit's history... Kinda sad to see it all go.


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## NovaWolverine (Dec 28, 2004)

The only real city that gives Detroit a run from where I've been is Chester. I've been to cities that are as run down and are as dangerous, but no other city I've been to has all urban prairie, run down buildings, is dangerous, and somewhat desolate. There are some places in Detroit where there aren't a lot of people around and that's what makes it different from Camden, Philly, and Baltimore. There are people on the streets in those cities and they still have lots of buildings standing. Philly has a lot of urban prairie, but it's a big city land area wise. 

Another thing is the scope of decay. I've lived in DC and NYC and spent a lot of time all up and down the east coast since my family is spread all over, but all of the rougher cities have lots of nice parts, Detroit has DT, which is somewhat small, but the rest is pretty rough. You're used to seeing the rough areas stop, but it goes on longer in Detroit it seems.


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## illmatic774 (Jul 20, 2005)

koolkid said:


> What's the point of demolishing everything? I think those abandoned houses/ buildings look beautiful. They need to be restored. Sure, others are extensively damaged and need to be razed but I think it'd be better to conserve Detroit's history... Kinda sad to see it all go.


the city doesn't have the resources to save every derelict structure. Do you think that if it were that simple then perhaps the city wouldn't be in the shape its in?

Wheres the money going to come from? Detroit is not New York.

looking back at this thread, its sad how ignorant Americans are of cities in their own country. They only know what is fed to them by the media and scenes from the movie _8 Mile_.


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## Laing (Jun 24, 2007)

I get the impression that most people in the States regard the decline of Detroit as purely the fault of the city's government and people. How do the federal and Michigan state governments evade being held responsible?


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## koolkid (Apr 17, 2006)

illmatic774 said:


> the city doesn't have the resources to save every derelict structure. Do you think that if it were that simple then perhaps the city wouldn't be in the shape its in?
> 
> Wheres the money going to come from? Detroit is not New York.
> 
> looking back at this thread, i*ts sad how ignorant Americans are of cities in their own country.* *They only know what is fed to them by the media and scenes from the movie 8 Mile*.


Is that my fault? That's all they show, I mean, what can I do about that? SO i'm ignorant now? Lets get it straight. I've never been to Detroit and I already made it clear it's the first time I've seen Detroit's urban decay. I've never even seen Detroits nice areas. Stop being such a prick.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

Its true that Windsor is no prise but is heaven compared to Detroit. Windsor is under a very hard economic downturn right now but still has some very nice parts. It's downtown is unappealing but Detroit is a wasteland as well as being poor and crime ridden.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

BTW
I meant to mention that much of this is due STRICKLY due to the city and state governments. Cleveland is very similar city being a steel city but it decided to revive itself and now has the longest continous waterfront walkway in NA, a vibrant downtown, and people moving back to the city yet Cleveland isn't wealthy and neither is Ohio.

Cleveland investerd in rapid transit, city and urban renewal, and the benefits are clear. 
Still no paradise but Cleveland is often referred to as "the come back city" with good reason.


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## Facial (Jun 21, 2004)

Excellent thread, outstanding pics.


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## illmatic774 (Jul 20, 2005)

i wasn't addressing you with that statement koolkid. That was meant for the rest of the people who are so astonished to realize that this exists in America, and try to dismiss Detroit as an insalvageable craphole. 

But I was addressing you about the issue of all the abandoned housing. the city is in not in the financial position to fix all these abandoned structures, as I believe that it is about 200 million dollars in the red.


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## koolkid (Apr 17, 2006)

whoops! Sorry about that misunderstandment. I guess it's annoying how others just throw it into ours faces. "only in America". I do in part agree that this shouldn't have been allowed to happen to a city that was so prosperous.


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## Pule (May 18, 2004)

That's bad, we got the same situation here in Johannesburg but the good thing is that the investors are coming on board and these smals will soon be the thing of the past.


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## urbanfan89 (May 30, 2007)

Pule said:


> That's bad, we got the same situation here in Johannesburg but the good thing is that the investors are coming on board and these smals will soon be the thing of the past.


Are you sure the lifestyles of locals are being improved as the buildings are improved, or is it simply gentrification? There's a very big difference between the two.


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## theworldshallcry (Mar 8, 2007)

Just as it's sad Detroit didn't become a Chicago, I'm equally glad Chicago didn't become a Detroit... for the most part, at least. Go down to the South Side, and it is just as desolate as some of these pictures.


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## Pule (May 18, 2004)

urbanfan89 said:


> Are you sure the lifestyles of locals are being improved as the buildings are improved, or is it simply gentrification? There's a very big difference between the two.


Investors cannot just move in and improve the buildings without be posetive that the lives of people have been improved and the same people can afford to occupy those improved buildings.


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## herodotus (Sep 11, 2002)

ssiguy2 said:


> BTW
> I meant to mention that much of this is due STRICKLY due to the city and state governments. Cleveland is very similar city being a steel city but it decided to revive itself and now has the longest continous waterfront walkway in NA, a vibrant downtown, and people moving back to the city yet Cleveland isn't wealthy and neither is Ohio.
> 
> Cleveland investerd in rapid transit, city and urban renewal, and the benefits are clear.
> Still no paradise but Cleveland is often referred to as "the come back city" with good reason.



Cleveland never had the racial bitterness that has ripped apart Detroit. Cleveland was the first large US city to elect a Black mayor (Carl Stokes). Even though Cleveland was hit by riots, the subsequent response was more conciliatory on both sides, and Whites did not abandon Cleveland to the degree they did Detroit. Coleman Young, the first Black mayor of Detroit, was very confrontational. Whites did not like him at all, and they virtually abandoned the city. Unlike other majority Black cities like Baltimore and DC, there are no wealthy, or solidly middle class White areas in Detroit. Middle and working class Blacks have to bear the entire financial burden for Detroit, and there are not enough of them to provide the revenue needed to cure many of it's ills. 

The abandonment of America's central cities by the White middle and upper classes is a phenomenon that affects nearly all of America's big cities, it just hit Detroit harder than most.


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## Ex-Ithacan (Nov 30, 2002)

I checked out the bird's eye view on Live Search of the Nall and Bangor street intersection. Lookin' quite desolate from above. And I'm sure it would be even more barren if all the derelict buildings were torn down. As bad as Detroit looks, at least the downtown has some life to it. On the other hand, Gary, Indiana is an empty downtown and less than half the population from its heyday (nearly 180,000 folks bak in the 50s). That may be changing with a casino, but I've not been there for several years. 

Unless there's a miracle, I don't see an economically viable solution to Detroit's continued slide.hno:

btw, impressive tour hero, thanks.


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## theworldshallcry (Mar 8, 2007)

herodotus said:


> The abandonment of America's central cities by the White middle and upper classes is a phenomenon that affects nearly all of America's big cities, it just hit Detroit harder than most.


Indeed, as they moved entirely of the city limits, which destroyed the tax base. Detroit is 10% white right now. Here the city proper was luckier, as white flight occurred mostly from one side of the city to the other.


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## sky-eye (Jan 2, 2003)

Is detroit not (one of) the poorest cities in the U.S?
However it looks really bad.


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## lkm370 (Jun 24, 2006)

sky-eye said:


> Is detroit not (one of) the poorest cities in the U.S?
> However it looks really bad.


yeah, its the number one poorest city in the US


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## OMH (Aug 21, 2007)

NovaWolverine said:


> The only real city that gives Detroit a run from where I've been is Chester. I've been to cities that are as run down and are as dangerous, but no other city I've been to has all urban prairie, run down buildings, is dangerous, and somewhat desolate. There are some places in Detroit where there aren't a lot of people around and that's what makes it different from Camden, Philly, and Baltimore. There are people on the streets in those cities and they still have lots of buildings standing. Philly has a lot of urban prairie, but it's a big city land area wise.
> 
> Another thing is the scope of decay. I've lived in DC and NYC and spent a lot of time all up and down the east coast since my family is spread all over, but all of the rougher cities have lots of nice parts, Detroit has DT, which is somewhat small, but the rest is pretty rough. You're used to seeing the rough areas stop, but it goes on longer in Detroit it seems.


i think they could have some new attitude to urbanity in these destroyed cities!maybe then the cities wouldn't experience decay IMO they should make a new plan,and rebuild them with denser,apartment buildings!


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

St. Louis is another city that has potential to turn into another Detroit.

Chester is really terrible (cut in half by 95) but on the small side. Detroit makes Newark, NJ seem like a rich prosperous city.


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## herodotus (Sep 11, 2002)

philadweller said:


> St. Louis is another city that has potential to turn into another Detroit.
> 
> Chester is really terrible (cut in half by 95) but on the small side. Detroit makes Newark, NJ seem like a rich prosperous city.


Saint Louis has a lot of decay, but it also has a better built environment in it's neighborhoods.

As far as apartment buildings, they are a disaster when they are called upon to house troubled populations. Apartment buildings housing the urban poor have been some of the very worst places in America.


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## Pegasusbsb27 (Sep 5, 2005)

Well, so let's see the unknown face of the "coin"


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## OMH (Aug 21, 2007)

herodotus said:


> Saint Louis has a lot of decay, but it also has a better built environment in it's neighborhoods.
> 
> As far as apartment buildings, they are a disaster when they are called upon to house troubled populations. Apartment buildings housing the urban poor have been some of the very worst places in America.


so what do you think,is the best?rowhouses take up more place..no,apartments is the best answer ro this!


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## herodotus (Sep 11, 2002)

OMH said:


> so what do you think,is the best?rowhouses take up more place..no,apartments is the best answer ro this!


Chicago had extensive areas of high rises that were so dangerous the police were afraid to enter. St. Louis' high rise apartments were so crime filled that they were demolished before they were 20 years old. You don't understand the high level of crime in some of these cities. High rises work well with stable populations. They are a disaster in high crime areas. Most US cities are getting rid of their high rise public housing.


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## illmatic774 (Jul 20, 2005)

SSC is definitely in need of the non-blight thread. I'm convinced that just about the whole world truly believes that the entire city looks like this.


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## herodotus (Sep 11, 2002)

illmatic774 said:


> SSC is definitely in need of the non-blight thread. I'm convinced that just about the whole world truly believes that the entire city looks like this.


You notice that the two non blight threads have fallen off of the page, while the crappy pics continue to get attention.


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

Chicagoflo said:


> Definition of ghetto?


The definition of ghetto is a section of a city, esp. a thickly populated slum area, inhabited predominantly by members of an ethnic or other minority group, often as a result of social or economic restrictions, pressures, or hardships. The key word to identify in the modern term "ghetto" is overcrowded.

These pictures do not depict the definition of a ghetto. Slums, yes. But not ghetto. In terms of slang, I suppose you could say, "that's so "ghetto"" and someone would know what you meant.

A ghetto can't be abandoned, but again needs to be populated enough that there are overcrowding conditions which creates the low quality of life standards in the ghetto.

This picture depicts a ghetto because, in a sense, people are living on top of one another.









There are little-to-no ghettos in Detroit. There once was an amazing place on the northeast extension of downtown called Black Bottom and Paradise Valley. This section of town was an urban ghetto to some extent, but was also known around the world (at the time) among entertainers as one of the most profound centers and concentrations of soul in the world.

It was bulldozed over by the 12 lane (8 freeway/4 service drive) I-75 Chrysler Freeway in an attempt to erase the blight and create urban renewal. You know, the policy that put black people in the projects and just created more ghetto?

*Here's an interesting read on Black Bottom:*
http://forums.detnews.com/history/story/index.cfm?category=life&id=174


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## urbanfan89 (May 30, 2007)

OMH said:


> so what do you think,is the best?rowhouses take up more place..no,apartments is the best answer ro this!


Ever heard of Clichy-sous-Bois? It's well-known for the wrong reasons.


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## Darryl (Jan 14, 2007)

herodotus said:


> You notice that the two non blight threads have fallen off of the page, while the crappy pics continue to get attention.


I've noticed how popular these blight threads are indeed. Please don't bring your camera to Baltimore! :lol:


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## krull (Oct 8, 2005)

Ok who can forget the bad joke on the Scary Movie War of the Worlds spoof about Detroit.


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

Ok, sorry, but your response really bothered me. I'm going to reply with annoyance, but w/ respect at the same time.



philadweller said:


> TRMD, that is the old train station. It is really embarassing that this can happen in one of the world's richest countries. What a disposable attitude Americans have.


Yes, fine.



> Aside form the automobile, I blame the citizens of Detroit for allowing this to happen to its downtown and environs.


No, that is not rational thinking. Let's say that you made this same statement 10 years ago when there were 300,000 more people living in the city. Let's say you make the same statement 10 years from now, with hypothetically speaking 300,000 less people than today...putting the city at 500,000 people. All of whom live in poverty. Who's fault is it? Who, as a politician has the human mental capacity to effectively lead a city of 500,000 and built for 2 million?

It's a very ignorant statement to make, especially when the reality is that the majority of Detroit is people just like you and me who want the exact same things that our care-free lives involve. Just because many of them are poor, does not mean they aren't good...but that's the stereotype that they are branded with by the rest of society. Life in a Detroit neighborhood, just like every other major city, can be found to have your typical populous wanting the same standards as everyone else. That is the bottom line here.



> Citizens have recently brought back cities in this country, not governments. Philadephia, like Detroit, has extremely corrupt politics but its residents are too stubborn to abandon its core.


Yes, and Detroit's core is coming back now too. It's many years behind every other city, but it still is showing amazing progress. Something so little as a window being installed in a building downtown does not go unnoticed. This is fascinating, because for many decades prior, this kind of thing was written off as next to impossible.

Also, Detroit never had a residential population in its core. Instead, NEAR the core were the massive consentrations of "verticle" manufacturing factories that the working and middle class lived near. Detroit's housing was built and prided on high percentages of home ownership (majority single family). When old mfg. left, the properties became obsolete, making it extremely easy for the neighborhoods to fall with them, especially since the obsolete structures meant all the jobs left as well.



> Philadelphia also refused to allow highways to slice down South Street and other parts of the city. Instead the reverse happened, downtown flourished. It also helps that Philadelphia has a mixed business economy and a stable location in the megapolis. I am not saying that Philadelphia is the prime role model for urban renewal but there was a time when Detroit and Philadelphia were both in the similar shoes.


I can't speak for Philadelphia, but Detroit and Phla were never in similar shoes. Maybe in appearance, but certainly not in social strata. Detroit made some major flaws, yes, especially where you are coming from in terms of highway building. But you have to remember that at that time in our history, this was seen as a progressive movement into the future. So, ironically, Detroit's hyper building of a freeway network was viewed at the time as being a very progressive city, where others were not. It's no surprise what "the right thing" was though.



> Any city that allows one industry to dominate its economy is headed for disaster. In this case it's the auto industry.


Precisely. However, you are wrong if you presume that Detroit purposely did such a foolish thing. And in fact, Detroit (the region) does have a diverse economy (dominated by automotive of course). Much of this, again ironically, can be attributed to the freeway network of suburbia, that contributes TO THIS DAY to the high growth of new southern mega cities. It's the same principle, only in the north, sunbelt-style growth can only happen where there are greenfields.



> The citizens of Detroit simply don't care about their city.


Go to hell. (That's about as nice as I can be responding to that comment). In fact, how dare you? 



> If they did they would not have allowed expressways to rip through its heart and neighborhoods would not be sliced up left to revert to prairie land. All those rich white folk turned their backs on the regions prime metropolis and left it to rot. I blame Grosse Pointe and Bloomfield Hills.


I sense your interest in the place, but you are no better than every other Michigander who blames Detroit for the world's problems. You, yourself just said that governments aren't responsible for the conditions of cities, yet aren't Grosse Pointe and Blmfld Hills just that? I can assure you they didn't proactively design a policy that said Detroit must die. It's much more complex than that and I'm afraid it would be very time consuming for you to understand the reasons behind it.

Let me put something into perspective for you. I was at a meeting in Livonia, one suburb-removed west of Detroit, where a lady stood up protesting a Walmart, and complained how "they" built the I-96 freeway through their city tearing up the neighborhoods and allowing "them" access to and from the city. She made it sound like the building of the freeways was the big city's intention. So, the ignorance goes both ways. In most cases the tension is just that, the typical tention between American cities and their suburbs, but in other cases it is an all out war.



> Sadly, Detroit is so far gone it is nearly impossible to salvage. It is a modern day Pompeii and a vital lesson to be learned.


No, it is not. Who do you think you are talking to? I think your basing your generalizations too much on imagery. It's interesting to hear your sentiments, but you aren't backing them up with anything. Like for instance, Detroit city has led the entire state in the issuance of building permits in the last 3 or so years, putting Wayne County ahead of the state's most powerful, Oakland County. Why did Wayne outperform Oakland? Because of the city of Detroit.



> It must have been one of the most amazing cities in its heyday. Brilliant urban planning and an extensive trolley system gone forever. Seeing that Hudson building get demolished was heartbreaking...and for what?


For what? Look around you! Is it really that hard? Or are you just making it hard on yourself on purpose? Hypothetically speaking, why would you tear down a massive, abandoned department store in Tinyvill, PA (pop. 4,000)? Would it be because the market is not there to support it? Yes! Is it because the demographics are shifting and the birth of the mall attracted a new lifestyle? Yes! It's the same thing for big cities. This is not a unique Detroit problem, and anyone can tell you that, no matter their level of education regarding cities.



> It could have been another Chicago.


There is no way in hell it could have been.
Under that logic, Philadelphia should be schooling Manhattan and Tokyo.

Look. Detroit is a near-perfect storm when it comes to the study of American cities. Everything fell into perfect place to build one of the most amazing places man has ever achieved. The same is true for it's destruction. What's also amazing is that there is a will and ability of some people to make it their mission in life to take corrective action. I see, based on your salvage comment, that you don't identify with this group. But that demonstrates your lack of understanding about what really goes on in this city on a daily basis. I appreciate your interest, by all means, but it's also very frustrating to live right in the middle of one of the most amazing and real lifestyles in the world, and yet have someone from the outside respond as if they know what's going on and has all the answers, yet only knows how say what people have been saying over and over and over and over and over and over for decades. Well, that hasn't gotten us very far has it?


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## OMH (Aug 21, 2007)

urbanfan89 said:


> Ever heard of Clichy-sous-Bois? It's well-known for the wrong reasons.


i heard of it..still much better than a lot of american cities though..but in america you just can't live in an apartment it seems,they need isolation!


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

philadweller said:


> Detroit is light years behind the rest of urban America. Post Katrina New Orleans has far more promise. That is because people love New Orleans and want to save it. Detroiters don't love Detroit, this is a real problem. When people hate themselves they become fat or diseased and let themselves go. Detroit hates itself.


No, that's wrong.

Downtown is on the right track, and like I stated above is competing in the residential market and is leading the state in new residential permits. The first million dollar condominiums are being constructed as the penthouse suites of the $180 million dollar renovation of, at the time the tallest, and one of the world's most famous hotels: The Book Cadillac. You need to go ask those homeowners why they would buy a $1 million home in such an aweful, unredeemable place.









The project in the foreground is a condo development taking advantage of purchased air rights. Something that has never happened in Detroit before.


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

urbanfan89 said:


> Why isn't the city council or someone moving to demolish those abandoned buildings? At least that way they can start from a (nearly) clean slate.


THOUSANDS of abandoned and obsolete buildings have been demolished in Detroit. There was an ambitious project instituted by the mayor when he first took office to demolish a certin amount of buildings in the city. He made a resasonable, yet ambitious goal, but the cost of demolitions quickly increased. Well, the budget went dry and so the city, which is already broke, is struggling to demolish structures. It's not an easy task by any means.


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

MDguy said:


> I hope in the next 100 - 200 years, Detroit realizes its mistakes, and attemps to at least fix them, because it doesn't seem like they are trying, and if they are, they aren't doing as good of a job as they could or should!


I think a lot of people think of Detroit as a whole, just like every other city in America. From my experiences, this really isn't the case. There are two Americas. The haves and the have-nots. When a major city is 85% black, the entire thing is grouped with the have-nots. It's an unfortunate reality which generates negative stereotypes.

The truth is there are millions of people (in fact, I believe the majority) in the metropolitan area that support Detroit in different ways. Whether it be just coming down to go to the theatre or on the other end, enrolling their kids in a summer program that puts them in the city to help the Blight Busters Organization and the like.

There's a loud minority (the media included) who have a destructive behavior and they get their message out and instilled in the public's head better than the majority.

Detroit is not like every other struggling major American city, and what makes me say that is that a lot of its help and support comes from investments made by people who do not live in the city itself. I think this creates a false image that when people say, "Detroit could do better" and the like, they don't really understand that there IS a huge constituency in our region that is doing work that goes above and beyond that of other cities. It's a very hard thing to deal with sometimes, especially when there is a segment of the population here that promote themselves as the city's worst enemy.


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

urbanfan89 said:


> I've driven through downtown detroit once, and it felt really scary to see skyscrapers everywhere yet practically no one on the streets. Does anyone else get this feeling?


I live and work downtown, so no. It's actually a very optimistic environment.

































































































































































































































So, no, it's not really scary.


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

Michi, thanks for responding. I had a feeling I was being ignorant and I trust you as a spokesman. I am thrilled to see that Detroit's downtown is coming along. Its a damn big city and needs all the attention it can get. I would love to see those art deco gems spruced up.


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

koolkid said:


> Is that my fault? That's all they show, I mean, what can I do about that? SO i'm ignorant now? Lets get it straight. I've never been to Detroit and I already made it clear it's the first time I've seen Detroit's urban decay. I've never even seen Detroits nice areas. Stop being such a prick.


lol...He wasn't refering to you personally. I'm sure he'd answer your question with, it's good that you've taken the initiative to educate yourself by visiting a website such as this. His comment was very generalized toward America in general. The majority of people in this country respond to the word, "Detroit" with negativity and what's worse is that they probably couldn't tell you why.

I was on the phone w/ a friend of mine who knows my passion for the city and knows I know it through and through. We're both from a small town far removed from Detroit and she now lives out west. On the phone, I was telling her how a friend of mine went for a walk downtown last week around 1 and 2 in the morning. She flipped out and asked if I was just asking to get shot. Why did she say this? And especially after I've taught her about the realities about Detroit? To me, it almost seemed instinctual of her response, because shortly after it seems like she let it set in and we talked about the fun times downtown when she would visit me.

BTW, there was a study conducted that identified downtown Detroit as one of the safest big city downtowns in America.

It's called:
*Reality v. Perceptions: 2006 Analysis of Crime and Safety in Downtown Detroit*
http://www.tedconline.com/uploads/2007_Final_Crime_Report[1].pdf


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

ssiguy2 said:


> Its true that Windsor is no prise but is heaven compared to Detroit. Windsor is under a very hard economic downturn right now but still has some very nice parts. It's downtown is unappealing but Detroit is a wasteland as well as being poor and crime ridden.


See all the above.

This ISN'T that hard, people!


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

philadweller said:


> Michi, thanks for responding. I had a feeling I was being ignorant and I trust you as a spokesman. I am thrilled to see that Detroit's downtown is coming along. Its a damn big city and needs all the attention it can get. I would love to see those art deco gems spruced up.


Well, thanks philadweller...at least I think. You aren't being sarcastic, are you? 

There certainly isn't any need to sugar coat herdotus' great photo essay of the worst in Detroit, and they definately need to be shown. But Detroit is an easy target simply because any permanent change that is positive (key word here, being "permanent") is just starting to take place in Detroit. It's what Cleveland and St. Louis experienced some 10-15 years ago.

You would think that because Detroit is arguable the last major American city to attempt permanent recovery, more people would take interest and involvement NOW, being that the most profound changes will happen in the present, and the better it gets, the more difficult it will be come to witness the impacts.

I live in Detroit and am just a part of the city (if not more) than someone who lives in suburban Troy and is an active member of thier city. The thing is, on a daily basis, I don't see the photos herodotus posted. Just like someone who lives in downtown Chicago and its surrounding neighborhoods doesn't see the south side of Chicago in their daily lives. In a sense, they're almost like two different cities...which is my experience w/ Detroit. I chose to live here, and I can tell you, I would choose NOT to live in a place that I don't feel safe or just comfortable walking down the street. Remember, there are two Americas and maybe that argument can be applied to cities as well.

All I ask is that people make fair assessments of reality. Especially, if they are going to take the time to expose themselves to a resource like SSC, which offers resources few and far between in the entire globe. This thread being precisely that.

Cheers!


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## FK (Oct 24, 2004)

Bummer, looks like a ghost town, the only thing standing are the street signs (first page) hno:


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## Bond James Bond (Aug 23, 2002)

It's rather interesting to contrast the decay pictures here with shots of Detroit's suburbs. They're basically the complete opposites!

:runaway:


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

People actually live in this junkyard?


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## koolkid (Apr 17, 2006)

herodotus said:


> You notice that the two non blight threads have fallen off of the page, while the crappy pics continue to get attention.


I think it'd be better if you mixed up the threads a bit. Show pictures of the gritty areas along with pics of the greatness a city offers, all in one thread. Eh? =P

Michi, thanks for those great pictures. Downtown does appear to have a buzz to it. I'm assuming downtown must be quite a big place.


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## DarkLite (Dec 31, 2004)

Michi- wow I admire the time and effort you took to clear up some generalizations i had about Detroit. Thanks!


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## herodotus (Sep 11, 2002)

FahadKhan said:


> Bummer, looks like a ghost town, the only thing standing are the street signs (first page) hno:


Amazing. After all of Michi's informative posts, some still don't get it.


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

RawLee said:


> People actually live in this junkyard?


Actually, some people don't have a choice. It's too expensive for them to leave and/or nobody would buy their home. A little more sensitivity toward real people wouldn't hurt ya.

No problem, koolkid. The central business district of downtown Detroit is actually pretty small, only 1 square mile. Some pictures I posted are from greater downtown, which extends upward away from the river for about 3 miles.

I consider myself a downtown resident, even though I live in Midtown. I ride my bike to the office downtown in the Central Business District, which is about a mile and a half ride.

Here is a map of Greater Downtown Detroit. The "downtown" Central Business District lies along the river and is surrounded by the square of freeways.

Midtown is also surrounded by the freeways (I-75 & M-10) and has a northern boundary of I-94. The last section of Greater Downtown is called New Center, which lies above I-94 on both sides of Woodward (the bisector) and goes north for about a mile as well.


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## koolkid (Apr 17, 2006)

Michi said:


> No problem, koolkid. The central business district of downtown Detroit is actually pretty small, only 1 square mile. Some pictures I posted are from greater downtown, *which extends upward away from the river for about 3 miles.*
> I consider myself a downtown resident, even though I live in Midtown. I ride my bike to the office downtown in the Central Business District, which is about a mile and a half ride.


For three miles? That's almost a mile wider than Manhattan. This gives me an idea of how big the Greater downtown is. Awesome information, thanks alot.


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## FK (Oct 24, 2004)

herodotus said:


> Amazing. After all of Michi's informative posts, some still don't get it.


Your the one who posted such pictures on the first page, if you want to show a different side of Detriot then you shouldnt have posted those pictures in the first place :lol:


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

Yah, but he did want to. And everyone wanted to see them. What's so funny about that?

Plus, what you said doesn't make sense.

You said,
"if you want to show a different side of Detroit then you shouldn't have posted those pictures."

Which makes me ask, "then what was he SUPPOSE to do to show a different side of Detroit?" You didn't say, which makes me believe you don't have an alternative to posting the pictures. Therefore, I think you're just trying to cause problems. But, you can prove me wrong.


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## FK (Oct 24, 2004)

Michi said:


> Yah, but he did want to. And everyone wanted to see them. What's so funny about that?
> 
> Plus, what you said doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...


If he did want to show those pictures then I had the right to comment on them too, and comments like "Amazing. After all of Michi's informative posts, *some still don't get it*." do not make sense.

If you want to show a decaying city, then one should learn to accept replies regarding it too.

Anyways I have better things to do then talk about the legality of my post or argue over here, those pictures reflected a side of Detriot and thats what I said, so I dont see what the big fuss is.

Anyways, ciao :wave:


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## Quall (Feb 15, 2006)

Holy crap! This thread grew fast.


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## herodotus (Sep 11, 2002)

FahadKhan said:


> Your the one who posted such pictures on the first page, if you want to show a different side of Detriot then you shouldnt have posted those pictures in the first place :lol:


I did post a second thread showing a different side of Detroit, but you declined to look at it. Instead you made a smart aleck comment. That's why I responded.


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## bluto (Oct 19, 2007)

Gary, Indiana gives Detroit a run for its money:


http://www.growingchicago.com/images/othercities/mypicsVI/

An interesting consequence of Detroit's decay is that much of the urban core is being reclaimed by nature. Here's a link to an article explaining how community gardeners and microfarmers are attempting to exploit this phenomenon:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9405E6DA163DF937A35751C1A9659C8B63


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## Lost Cosmonaut (Feb 10, 2005)

Detroit reminds me Johannesburg.


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## Ex-Ithacan (Nov 30, 2002)

bluto said:


> Gary, Indiana gives Detroit a run for its money:
> 
> 
> http://www.growingchicago.com/images/othercities/mypicsVI/
> ...




That is Twilight Zone scary. "Where's everybody at?" Certainly not in downtown Gary. I guess the postman has the easiest job in town. No one there to deliver any mail to. Sad, really. hno:


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Michi said:


> Actually, some people don't have a choice. It's too expensive for them to leave and/or nobody would buy their home. A little more sensitivity toward real people wouldn't hurt ya.


Real people here dont live in such areas.It looks like a junkyard,even to my eyes,although they are used to commie-blocks.


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

"Detroit reminds me Johannesburg."

How so? I would imagine that Jo-Burg is afr most dangerous but much more intact as a city.


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

RawLee said:


> Real people here dont live in such areas.


I was referring to Detroit, but whatever.


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## robituss (Dec 3, 2005)

Judging from the surprised responses, I guess people dont see places like this often in real life. It looks rough, but there are many areas in chicago, Ive seen it all over places in the west side especially, and south side, as well as northwest Indiana that look almost the same (as shown in the link to Gary -but gary is much smaller). The decay just looks a little more widespread, and may take a larger percentage of the city of Detroit itself. And dont forget now, normal people actually live around these areas, so dont be so quick to judge. The abandoned train station is pretty sad though, looks like it was once an awesome building.

Michi, I appreciate your responses and informative posts. I think a lot of people generalize Detroit because it is much easier to do that than to actually investigate the place itself. I had heard the downtown was on its way toward revival, good to see thats whats happening. The building stock in Detroit is some of the best, with beautiful art deco Im even a little jealous for. All that needs to be preserved and revived. Good luck to Detroit, Chi-towns midwest brother. 

Btw good pictures herodotus.


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## krull (Oct 8, 2005)

Why is that train station abandon anyway? Doesn't Amtrak goes to Detroit? When did it happen and are there any plans to do something in the future? Thanks for the many answers. I hope something positive is done to that magnificent old building.

Something very nice about Detroit is that wonderful collection of old buildings in their Downtown.


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

Thanks, robituss. You said it well in your first paragraph! 

krull, the train station is called *The Michigan Central Station* or *MCS* for short. The building was built in 1913 and designed by the Warren & Wetmore and Reed & Stern architect firms, who also designed *Grand Central Station* in NYC.

The train station functioned up until 1988, when the last Amtrak train left the station for Chicago. Part of the reason it fell so fast was because it was built away from the high density of downtown. It sits near the foot of the Ambassador Bridge to Canada and at the time it was built, it was expected that downtown Detroit would grow and expand westward, filling in the space between the Central Business District and the MCS, particularly following the route established by Michigan Avenue. _If you look at the map I posted above, the MCS is located a few blocks west of the Mexicantown arrow on the lower left._

Needless to say, due in part to the Great Depression, downtown never really expanded, at least in that direction. It was determined in 1988 that the facility was just too big to continue to operate, especially with Amtrack Stations located in other parts of the Metro Area taking parts of the customer base. And so there it sits.

Detroit does have a passenger train station through Amtrak. Again, if you look at the map above, you can see it is located at the top where the railroad passes over Woodward Avenue in the New Center District of town. It is a tiny shack, not much more than the little stations you see in rural small towns along a railroad route. Also to note, downtown did expand from the river, but instead of west, it went north. This is where New Center gets its name from. Downtown ran out of space to grow, and so planners identified land in this area to build a new highrise business and commercial center in the late 20s and 30s. They affectionately called it New Center.









Grand Boulevard, New Center

The crown jewel of the district is the 30-story Fisher Building. This tower is just one of 2 twins that were suppose to be built on either side of an 80-story center tower just as oppulent and extravagant. Again, the Great Depression ruined those plans along with the underground subway construction, and other tall buildings in the Central Business District planned for around 60 to 80 stories.









Fisher Building and New Center









Fisher Building interior










And lastly, there were plans to renovate the MCS that all failed. The most recent one was a stupid idea from the city to buy it and renovate it as the city's new Police Headquarters. The city has no money, so that was an obvious no-go.

The owner of the MCS is also the owner of the nearby Ambassador Bridge. He had plans at one time to renovate the building as the centerpiece of a major transportation hub adjacent to the bridge and the surrounding network of freeways. That also fell through.

A lot of people involved in the grass roots interests in Detroit talked a lot about how one of the 3 casinos who were planning on spending 100s of millions of dollars on their permanent facilities, should seriously consider the MCS as their new home. None of them opted for that choice.

It's a very solid structure, and I actually had the opportunity go go into it last year about this time. But for now, it's just going to sit there and continue to deteriorate and "welcome" people to the United States as the first thing travelers over the Ambassador Bridge see coming into the country. Not only do they see it, they see right through it...literally. 









The St. Patrick's Day Parade marches down Michigan Avenue in Corktown, past the old Michigan Central Station...and on its way toward the old Tiger Stadium.


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## Michi (Sep 28, 2002)

An historic photo showing Roosevelt Park surrounded by Vernor and Lacombe, offering access to the MCS fortress. Notice the streetcar cables on Michigan Avenue. Today, Roosevelt Park is populated by the homeless, and often times you see what looks like a small "Hooverville" of tents pitched on the weedy lawn.









FYI, here's another "plan" for the station.
http://www.interstatetraveler.us/Forward.Thinking/Urban.Restoration/MichiganCentralDepot.Detroit.htm

Interstate Traveler is a hydrogen-based mass transit system that a local company is trying to impliment.


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## Brisbaner21 (Jul 17, 2007)

One thing that amazed me about this city is that for its population, the downtown seemed dead. I know Detroit is rapidly loosing its population, but the city seemed dead in its CBD.


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## fareastsider (Nov 22, 2007)

The cities CBD is quiet after business hours usually but livens up at night. Like many cities in the US it has a high daytime population. There are many new residential developments underway. The progress in the city is amazing considering what it has gone through. Detroit is complex and so is the region. I have lived in SE Michigan my whole life and have gone to school, worked, and have many friends in the city. There is a big change rising in the city that you can feel. I see a perfect setup for the D. Given the acres of open land around the downtown area, cheap housing and land in the city, rising gas prices, the practical stop of housing construction in the suburbs in recent years, and more I think that Detroit is set up nicely to be rebuilt. (Not to mention the ENDLESS fresh water supply!) Detroit is easy to pick on but its problems are very complex, Listen to Michi he knows his stuff. Yea Detroit has lots of problems but the worst is behind us now. Detroit is the product of the sprawling and newness that Americans love. Only now is the nation realizing what that attitude has done to our landscape and culture. Detroit can easily be Dallas, Phoenix, etc. Hopefully we learned our lesson this time. Given all the bad there is easily more Good in the city. I have been intrigued by the city my whole life and have barely scratched the surface of what the city has to offer. Detroit is a great city, and who ever said we dont have pride for our city has obviously never met somebody from here. Most people from Detroit will look you dead in the eye and say its the greatest city on Earth!


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## benficafan1013 (Apr 18, 2007)

It's the people's fault


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