# [I] Italy | road infrastructure • strade e autostrade



## GENIUS LOCI

Do you like Liguria's motorways?

Then look at this insane branch of *Torino-Savona* highway










Get closer and closer to see how southbound makes a loop


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## Bahnsteig4

OMG!
Been on A7 (Milano-Genova) once and I thought THAT was insane. But that just beats it...


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## Wilhem275

no no no, Serravalle Highway (A7) southbound cannot be beaten... Probably it's the best road in Europe, just behind Nurburgring's Nordschleife


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## keber

Imagine traveling from French riviera towards Genova on impressive A10 and you come after dozens and dozens of impressive tunnels and viaducts 
(I don't know, but there should be around 60 tunnels in about 150 km on A10?) and then following intersection with A26 makes you stunned: 
what goes where? :nuts:









(sorry for big picture)

Other perspective:








I was just amazed, when traveling on lower (left) viaduct, and you look deep down into valley 
(it is quite deep, but its not easy to see in picture, you have to see it live) and then you look up and see high above you another viaduct (right).
Italian A10 is surely "a must" to see for everyone.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Wilhem275 said:


> no no no, Serravalle Highway (A7) southbound cannot be beaten... Probably it's the best road in Europe, just behind Nurburgring's Nordschleife


Serravalle-Genova southbound is the oldest part of the motorway (1935) and for the standards of '30s that was a motorway (to be more accurate it was called '_camionabile_': road for trucks) wich could support the traffic in both direction; I think the track was divided in just two lanes (one each directon)

In '60s they built Northbound track (with a more 'modern' conception: with a 'human' slope and less curves, and with many viaducts and tunnels) and divided the directions; to Genova remained on old track and to Serravalle on the new

I think it's time to dismiss southbound and to build a more modern one


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## radi6404

The motorways are fucking impressive, i would like to travel there.


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## keber

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Serravalle-Genova southbound is the oldest part of the motorway (1935) and for the standards of '30s that was a motorway (to be more accurate it was called '_camionabile_': road for trucks) wich could support the traffic in both direction; I think the track was divided in just two lanes (one each directon)
> 
> In '60s they built Northbound track (with a more 'modern' conception: with a 'human' slope and less curves, and with many viaducts and tunnels) and divided the directions; to Genova remained on old track and to Serravalle on the new
> 
> I think it's time to dismiss southbound and to build a more modern one


How then, that A10 to Ventimiglia is also wide separated on many parts? Was at first built only one half, and then second (tunnels are however threelaned)?


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## Wilhem275

GENIUS LOCI said:


> I think it's time to dismiss southbound and to build a more modern one



I agree, but the old one must be closed to traffic and kept as the Serravalle-Genova Circuit 
We could call it "The Green Heaven", since there is a more famous "Green Hell" :nuts:



A little north of the weird intersection between A26 and A10, the A26 goes dancing around mountains:










when you travel along this point, you can see your own highway :lol: on the other side of the valley, running on very high viaducts...




Now, we have seen the A26/A10 link, the _Valpolcevera/Morandi_ viaduct includes parts of the A10/A7 link, now let's see the A7/A12 link:










You clearly see the northbound connection, in red.
Can't you see the southbound ones?
That's why...


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## TohrAlkimista

I think this is the masterpiece of a group of crazy engineers.


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## GENIUS LOCI

keber said:


> How then, that A10 to Ventimiglia is also wide separated on many parts? Was at first built only one half, and then second (tunnels are however threelaned)?


Not sure of that, but it is very likely that the eastbound between Arenzano (just in the outskirts of Genova) and Genova was once an old _'camionabile'_


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## TohrAlkimista

Genius, ma non si chiama "Camionale"?


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## GENIUS LOCI

^^
E' la stessa cosa 


http://dizionari.corriere.it/dizionario_italiano/C/camionale.shtml

http://dizionari.corriere.it/dizionario_italiano/C/camionabile.shtml


Sorry for this little OT over italian language


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## TohrAlkimista

you're welcome, Genius.


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## Wilhem275

"Camionabile" is the Duce way to say "Camionale" :lol:


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## Napo

*Autostrade*

*Other photos*

*Genova*




































*Roma-Napoli*









*A1 - Calatrava's bridge near Reggio Emilia*


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## Verso

Napo said:


> *Other photos*
> 
> *Genova*


Umm, dude, no offence, but this is Shanghai.


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## Wilhem275

I think he meant this 











This is where the old _camionabile_ endend its route...


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## Napo

Ma davvero è Shanghai??...Che figura di m****:bash:
La foto l'ho presa su un sito fotografico delle autostrade italiane....mah
Ero convinto fosse Genova ...la prossima volta starò più attento


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## Astralis

Verso said:


> Umm, dude, no offence, but this is Shanghai.


Either way it looks awesome :eek2: :eek2:


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## Rohne

keber said:


> Imagine traveling from French riviera towards Genova on impressive A10 and you come after dozens and dozens of impressive tunnels and viaducts (I don't know, but there should be around 60 tunnels in about 150 km on A10?) and then following intersection with A26 makes you stunned:


Yeah, I travelled this way some years ago (from somewhere near Savona to Milano using A10, A26, A7) and it was more than nice. Unfortunately it was midnight when I reached this intersection.

Btw, are there any maps showing how many lanes Italian Autostradas have?
I'm looking for something like the maps on this site ("Karten" -> "Autobahnkarte" or "Strecken" and then chose the Autobahn you want, red is 2 lanes per direction, violett 3, and dark violett 4 lanes per direction).
Also, I'm interested in the AADT numbers of Italian Autostradas.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> Umm, dude, no offence, but this is Shanghai.


:yes:


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## GENIUS LOCI

Rohne said:


> Also, I'm interested in the AADT numbers of Italian Autostradas.


This could be an interesting website http://www.aiscat.it/


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## GENIUS LOCI

A curious system (adopted even in other countries, as I saw in a very old thread here on SSC) to shift rapidly the barriers which divide the two directions

Here used for a provisional barrier due to the works to enlarge a viaduct on A6 Torino Savona; the stretch is between Mondovì and Carrù and they shift the barriers to leave the direction with more traffic (e.g. the direction to Savona, to the sea, during w.e., the direction to Torino Sunday afternoon/evening) always with one more lane



















http://www.snoline.com/sicurezzatraffico/qmb.html


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## TohrAlkimista

impressive the last pic! 


where is it?


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## mgk920

^^ 
That is what is called a 'Zipper' barrier. There are several such installations here in the USA, some of them semi-permanent. A few permanent ones that I know of are on the Tappan Zee bridge (I-87 over the Hudson River north of NYC), I-H1 west of the main airport (between I-H2 and I-H201) in Honolulu and along I-93 south of downtown Boston. There are a few other temporary construction zone 'Zippers' in the USA, too.

Mike


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## Wilhem275

Imagine using that in the opposite way, reducing and not widening the road, what a mess


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## GENIUS LOCI

Time for *Roma* now (I really like its network of urban/suburban expressways/motorways)


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## radi6404

fucking awesome BLACK motorways.


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## SCWTC4

the viaduct in the last picture probaby will be torn down sometime in the next years


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## GENIUS LOCI

SCWTC4 said:


> the viaduct in the last picture probaby will be torn down sometime in the next years


Yeah: when the new stretch of 'tangenziale' (u/c just a pic before) will be ready they will tear down this 'historical' _monster_piece... ehm... masterpiece of Italian Capital 'architecture'


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## TohrAlkimista

Does anybody knows what's the translation of Tangenziale in english? I mean is only an italian thing?


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## wyqtor

TohrAlkimista said:


> Does anybody knows what's the translation of Tangenziale in english? I mean is only an italian thing?


Well, I guess it would be "bypass", as in a motorway bypassing a city. Then again, I'm not Italian so I might be wrong


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## TohrAlkimista

They are like motorways, mostly free, that sorrounds the cities, they are a link between the urban roads and the motorways. 

Dunno...I'm confused...:?


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## Verso

Tangenziale = tangent.  Hehe, it may be funny, but that's it.  They are like a tangent of a city/town. They are still motorways though, they just wanna tell you it's a bypass.  Sth more about your country from me.


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## Alien x

I wish I could find some pictures of the tunnel (or map) under Monte Mario (4km) and its intersections. Its one of the most impressive newer project in Rome (including GRA and increased capacity of Ro-Fiu for the purposes of the Nuova fiera di Roma to name some) which connects tangenziale est to the northern section of Rome including 4 underground intersections.


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## GENIUS LOCI

SCWTC4 said:


> the viaduct in the last picture probaby will be torn down sometime in the next years


Some pics of the so called '_sopraelevata_' 





































Work in progress for new '_Tangenziale Est_'
(april 2007)




























plan



















http://www.acj.it/tangest/

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangenziale_Est_di_Roma

now









in the future


















http://www.amicidelmostro.org/m_stori/stori.htm


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## GENIUS LOCI

Alien x said:


> I wish I could find some pictures of the tunnel (or map) under Monte Mario (4km) and its intersections.


Here a map of Giovanni XXIII tunnel kay:


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## Wilhem275

The "sopraelevata" triangle is the one you see from train, entering Termini station from Pescara or Napoli AV lines?

Aren't those the (in)famous viaducts where poor Fantozzi catched the bus "on the run"?   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62dh8wz5oj0


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## GENIUS LOCI

Wilhem275 said:


> Aren't those the (in)famous viaducts where poor Fantozzi catched the bus "on the run"?


correct


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## Wilhem275

LOL they should be kept as historical pieces


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## GENIUS LOCI

Italian motorways random pics


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## mgk920

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Italian motorways random pics


Why the two paralleling motorways here?

Mike


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## TohrAlkimista

mgk920 said:


> Why the two paralleling motorways here?
> 
> Mike


The section that you can see with 3 lanes is the real motorway, that passes the new tunnels.

The parallel section, with only 2 lanes, is the old motorway, that passes through the older tunnels, that, after a renewal, today is used for the "Tangenziale" of Vicenza. 


So they are parallel for a short part, between Vicenza Ovest and the junction with the S.P. 247.


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## Verso

^ These two tunnels gotta be the most beautiful in the world!


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## GENIUS LOCI

More... I want more.......


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## TohrAlkimista

>




AMAZING! :drool:


more and more Genius!


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## Sampei

edit


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## Sampei

Entrance:






























Icon of autostrada:










(Catania-Messina)


End:


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## GENIUS LOCI

mgk920 said:


> Why the two paralleling motorways here?


As TohrAlkimista said the tracks on the right are Vicenza bypass (previously old stretches of A4 'Torino-Trieste' highway)

There are many cases in Italy where bypass and expressways for local traffic run just beside stretches of _'long distance'_ main highways
The most famous one is probably Bologna _tangenziale_

Here a coupple of pics of Bologna (in the center A14 highway; on the two sides the city bypass)







































Now they're working to add the third lane



















http://www.autostrade.it/en/opere/a14_panigale_lazzaro.html?initPos=2




Here the bypass of Modena (not far from Bologna) side-by-side with the A1 (even here pics are a bit outdated: this stretch of A1 got now 4 lanes since at least one year)


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## keber

GENIUS LOCI said:


>


Where is this?:shocked:

Also I remember those two narrower Vicenca tunnels 10 years ago, when there was no tangenziale there and they were abandoned and full of weeds.

When was A4 between Venezia and Milano widened to 3+3?


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## GENIUS LOCI

keber said:


> Where is this?:shocked:


 It is viadotto Italia, in Calabria, on A3 (Salerno - Reggio Calabria) highway


> When was A4 between Venezia and Milano widened to 3+3?


If I'm not wrong there are already stretches with 2 lanes between Venezia and Trieste

The rest of the highway go 3 lanes since so many years I don't remember exactly when they 'upgraded' it


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## Boeing!

Naples Tangenziale(urban highway)




























Random










This box,named Telepass,enables you not to stop at the "casello"(how to say it in english??:nuts: :lol: ) for the highway rates payment



















The most famous italian brand on our highways































































































































Genoa


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## Verso

GENIUS LOCI said:


> If I'm not wrong there are already stretches with 2 lanes between Venezia and Trieste


What do you mean? :sly: Did you mean 3 lanes (each direction)? No, there are "only" 2 lanes (each direction) between Venice and Trieste (except by Venezia (Mestre), until the interchange with the A27).


Anyway, could someone list ALL those parallel motorways/expressways, serving as city/town bypasses? I know they are by Vicenza, Bologna, Verona, Udine, and apparently Modena. Any other?


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## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> What do you mean? :sly: Did you mean 3 lanes (each direction)?


No sorry I understood he meant 3 lanes upgrade on the whole A4 run (for that I specified there are already 2 lanes stretches) and not just between Milano end Venezia as keber wrote (he wrote it! Can I read or what? :bash: )

Sorry for the misunderstanding


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## GENIUS LOCI

Interesting website http://members.cox.net/mkpl3/italy/italy.html


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## GENIUS LOCI

*E45 freeway - a 'ghost' main highway crossing Italy*

There is a 'hidden' motorway in Italy which starts from Ravenna to end at Orte

It is a doubble tracks two lanes motorway, with no fares.. did you know it?











It is not so clearly evidenced (normally) on the maps: you know, maybe Autostrade spa preferes people use its toll highways and probably made 'pression' over main road maps 'designer' (in Italy is TCI - Touring Club Italiano - with no doubt)

Infact you can clearly see it on Michelin's maps


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## TohrAlkimista

Here a realy interesting link:

it explains how it works the Italian Motorways System: http://www.geocities.com/marcelmonterie/i.htm :cheers:


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## keber

Is it really new Genova bypass in construction? I've seen it on roadmap of Italy, so I wonder.


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## CborG

GENIUS LOCI said:


> There is a 'hidden' motorway in Italy which starts from Ravenna to end at Orte


Funny ending this highway has near, nothing....

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.362944,11.999538&spn=0.00367,0.010815&t=k&z=17&om=1

were is it supposed to go?


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## GENIUS LOCI

^^
To Civitavecchia

I think (but it's a speculation) that _Autostrade spa _pressed not to end that track; so people are oblidged, in some way, to use their toll highways 

Past Government proposed to change E-45 into a toll highway... I think it wuold be good if that means its 'completion (to Venezia and to Civitavecchia) and a more integrated network


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## aby_since82

^^ I LOVE ITALY kay: I don't speak english very well (neanche l'italiano) but, all i wanna say is: Nella prossima vita voglio essere italianoooooooo :lol: ciao a tutti sono bellissime le autostrade italiane.


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## Guest

Impressive Autostrade, thanks for sharing your pics!

PD-Autogrill is quite popular in Spanish Autovias and Autopistas too


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## Boeing!

Autogrill is an italian company


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## GENIUS LOCI

Rustichella rulez!


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## GENIUS LOCI

Time for some pics of *Torino* motorways network


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## ChrisZwolle

Italian Autostrada's are very OK, but you have to work on signage. It's too minimal on motorways.


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## keber

^^ Yes, especially the lack of distance signs.

So, what's about Genova bypass? I can't find anything on the net, at least not in English language.


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## EuroMaster

I really like all those (urban) tunnels and viaducts!


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## Bahnsteig4

> Rustichella rulez!


True, but do you know Autogrill's "Positano"?


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## TohrAlkimista

*One of the most important development of the italian network, the "Passante of Mestre", is going fast.

The first part will be probably completed 300 days in advance.

The inauguration would take place between the 2nd and the 6th of August.*

Here some maps of the entire project:










*The *blue* part shows the entire project
*The *Green* one is the actual motorway
*The *Yellow* circled part is the new part nearly completed


*Instead in this map, the nearly completed part is the section 1:*










*Here a closer view of the section 1:*


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## TohrAlkimista

*Here a video dedicated to the Passante: *http://www.ilpassantedimestre.com/video.htm


And some random pics, not really new unfortunately, 

anyway a good view...


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## Bahnsteig4

^^ I didn't know that this was planned. So this motorway avoids the toll stations around the Venetian area? 
If so, good for all!


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## ChrisZwolle

Well, the Autostrade 4 goes right through Mestre, a city of 170.000, it also serves Venezia, a city of 270.000.
This is one of Italias most congested motorways.


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## TohrAlkimista

davidkunz/VIE said:


> ^^ I didn't know that this was planned. So this motorway avoids the toll stations around the Venetian area?
> If so, good for all!


jep, at the end, this bypass is going to be built...:banana: 



Chris1491 said:


> Well, the Autostrade 4 goes right through Mestre, a city of 170.000, it also serves Venezia, a city of 270.000.
> This is one of Italias most congested motorways.


yes, the traffic is incredible.

The entire area between Mestre+Venezia and the rest of Veneto serves more than 4 milion people, but, most important thing, serves all the traffic of TIR coming from eastern Europe, going to the rest of Italy.

This infrastructure is really foundamental!


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## Nephasto

Is the bypass going to be 3+3?
After the bypass, in the direction of Milan (west of it) the A4 already has 3+3, right?

It's certainly going to be very usefull this bypass! kay:


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## wyqtor

Nephasto said:


> After the bypass, in the direction of Milan (west of it) the A4 already has 3+3, right?


Yes. It's one of the coolest motorways I've been on - especially with those Autogrills over the driveway! 

The existing stretch of A4 through Mestre is 3+3 also - but they are very narrow.


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## ChrisZwolle

2x3 lanes can only carry 120.000 - 140.000 vehicles a day. 2x3+2x3 can carry 250.000


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## TohrAlkimista

Some infos about the:










Technical Data

* *Total Length:* 32,3 km.
* *Galleries:* 8 sections. The longest one is 400m long and the shortest 60m 
* *Viaducts:* 4
* *Passages over rivers* 14 with bridges of single span between 25 and 35 m
* *Connections with other Motorways:* 3 (A4 VE-PD at Pianiga/Mirano, A27 Mestre-BL at Mogliano, A4 VE-TS at Quarto d’Altino)
* *Barriers:* 6



Today the actual bypass of Mestre carries between 150.000 and 170.000 cars, with an annual growth of 4%.

Unfortunately I can't find exactly the number of lanes, but I think that they are for some parts 2+2 and mostly 3+3! :bash:


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## GENIUS LOCI

wyqtor said:


> Yes. It's one of the coolest motorways I've been on - especially with those Autogrills over the driveway!


Those 'bridge' Autogrills are very common on all Italian highways


> The existing stretch of A4 through Mestre is 3+3 also - but they are very narrow.


Infact Mestre bypass was once 2 lanes: they upgraded it at 3 but the problem was it mostly stands on an el track; so they 'used' the emergency lane to design newly the whole track with 3 lanes but narrower

*Mestre bypass with two lanes (+emergency lane)*


















































































*Third lane project*



























































































http://www.autovepd.it/t3c/index.html

*Today with the third lane*
I litterally mean 'today'


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## TohrAlkimista

It's absurd all that "heavy" traffic!


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## GENIUS LOCI

Chris1491 said:


> What a chaotic mess.
> 
> How wide are the motorways around Milano?


Motorways and bypasses around Milan got at least 3 lanes

The problem with A4 is that in inner city is used like a bypass adding the local traffic to the long distance traffic (with many many trucks)
But to be honest the local traffic in the wide metro area congests A4 from Brescia to Novara

Now they're upgrading A4 from Bergamo to Milan and from Milan to Magenta (just before Ticino river) to 4 lanes + emergency lane
Unfortunately the stretch they're not upgrading yet (even because there are some tecnical problems due to the massive urbanization) is the stretch just in the middle, the most urban you can see in the pic

However 4 lanes can't be enough for a motorway near to the collapse: infact they're going to start the construcion of so called _Pedemontana_, a motorway bypassing the metro area about 20 km North (and that will be part of a system of bypasses which will create a ring of 60 km of diameter around Milan) and a direct link, called BreBeMi, from Milan to Brescia


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## GENIUS LOCI

^^
This was the situation of Milan motorways in 2000 










This ones the web around Milan when completed (projects are of 2001: something changed nowadays; and something -very few- was already built)



















A schematic drawn of a (possible) future scenario of Northern Italy main motorways 










source: http://www.pim.mi.it/News/Cartelle dati/Ismllo.zip


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## GENIUS LOCI

Probably a more clear (and surely a more updated) map of the future web of Milan is that one I already posted in the first page of this thread


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## GENIUS LOCI

An aerial pic of so called _Certosa interchange_ (A8/A4) in Milan

The shot is very old: I'm sure the pic is of 1987 (!)... but I love it so much :|


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## ChrisZwolle

Why is Milano only so urbanized spread-out to the north?


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## GENIUS LOCI

^^
There are many reasons

But historrically Northern Milan is the place where manufacture factories developped most, then even urbanization; while South historically is the place for agricultural

Then there is no a metropolitan area figure to manage urban settlements, so after the second world war (when the hinterland urbanization began to rise) till now the municipalities in the North, historically less 'rural', could better increase their population and urban area
Nowadays even the South begins a more 'heavy' urbanization, just because in the North there is no more place...


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## keber

TohrAlkimista said:


> *One of the most important development of the italian network, the "Passante of Mestre", is going fast.
> 
> The first part will be probably completed 300 days in advance.
> 
> The inauguration would take place between the 2nd and the 6th of August.*


Which year? :lol:

No really, as of yesterday, there still about one month of work to be done on connection to A4. And when looking at almost empty construction yards, I doubt even in this one month.

Anyway, picture of typical morning rush-hour on A4 by Mestre. Picture was taken after one hour of slow stop&go traffic though about 10 km of motorway.










(more pictures are to come, especially of south Italy)


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## matherto

just spent a week going up and down the autostradas on holiday, and Italian drivers are mental!

Much better quality road surfaces than here in Britain though


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## GENIUS LOCI

*Bergamo*































*Brescia*


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## keber

Of course, not all autostradas look so shiny and modern as on previous pictures. They can also look "somehow" different. Can you guess, where could this be? :naughty:


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## x-type

ayayayayay, omfg! Sicilia, or something very south


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## ChrisZwolle

Calabria?


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## FM 2258

I was in the Catania area for a day on May 10th, 2007, here are some Autostrade pictures:

















































































Catania is my newly adopted city. I loved that place.


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## x-type

you have 40" monitor?hno:


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## ChrisZwolle

What a mess there. Everything south of Rome in Italy is worse, i've heard. The A3 southbound to Reggio Calabria was one of the worst motorways ever. But pics of that road are very rare.


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## Nephasto

^^Well, the motorway's in FM's pictures may not be all tidy and with shiny crashbarriers colgate, but they look OK.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ bad signage, bad pavement, narrow emergency lanes, plants almost over the roadway, 40km/h exits. Not my ideal of a safe motorway


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## Nephasto

^^The emergency lanes look ok to me. Maybe not as wide as in other autostradas, but ok.
The pavement in the first photos is excelent. In the last 3 photos the pavement is bad but nothing shocking. 
As for the 40km/h exits, I'm under the impression that's usual in Italy (signaling the speed limit after the exit on the motorway signaling). I would say that this is due to that unusual signaling system and not to the fact that the exit is particularlly dangerous.


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## FM 2258

Chris1491 said:


> ^^ bad signage, bad pavement, narrow emergency lanes, plants almost over the roadway, 40km/h exits. Not my ideal of a safe motorway


Most of the pavement on that stretch of highway was very smooth. Hell if you've been to Interstate 10 in Louisiana then you'll see what bad pavement is. 

As for the 40km/h exit that was for the service station but I never got a picture of the speed signage for the Giarre Exit. That exit seemed pretty good to me. 

Interestingly I never knew I'd be contributing pictures to a thread about the Autostrade. I had the choice of visting Venice or Sicily for a day and I picked Catania. I pretty much got a full length tour of Italy in one week and I noticed from the 3 main cities I went to Milano was the cleanest, Roma was kinda filthy(lots of grafitti) and Catania was pretty dirty as well. 

Besides all that I can't wait to visit Italy again and actually drive around with a better expectation of how people drive over there. Driving in Catania was a nightmare on the streets. I'm surprised I didn't see any car accidents while I was there.


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## x-type

i don't like those plants all around the road. those pines above motorway may be pitoresque, but they make signs invisible. pavement is at some photos good, some bad. at all, it is understandable that motorway is not maintained well.


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## Pavlvs

I'm sorry for my bad english.

You must know that, to Naples until Calabria, the highway called "Salerno-Reggio Calabria" (code A3), is a mountain-highway across the Apenines, with an impressive list of tunnels, viaducts, bridges, for 442 kilometers.
It was finished in 1974, more than 30 years ago, being one of the oldest highway in Europe (in 1974 there weren't highways in France, Spain, Great Britain and east Europe).

Of course, being an old highway on and over the mountains, in some parts can be more narrow than a normal highway and in other parts can look more "old" than every other highway in Europe.

But be the first country to build highways (Milan-Lakes, the first highway in the world, 1924) is not a shame. 

Actually the A3 is under a great plane of development for 20 billion €, an expensive plane to transform the old A3 in a new modern highway building new tunnels, bridges, viaducts.

Here an exemplificative simulation

New tunnel and old viaduct










Some pics


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## Pavlvs

Nephasto; said:


> As for the 40km/h exits, I'm under the impression that's usual in Italy (signaling the speed limit after the exit on the motorway signaling). I would say that this is due to that unusual signaling system and not to the fact that the exit is particularlly dangerous.


Yes,
the "street code" wants 40km/h for exit lanes.

Of course, nobody respects a so stupid signal.
(to decelerate to 130km/h until 40km/h can be very dangerous)


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## keber

>


Yes, my picture was taken on A3 in Calabria. It is only very short sections, other parts are mainly in good condition. I have more pictures to show but later. I've driven almost whole A3 up to 30 km before Regio Calabria. Old road is generally in quite bad condition, but massive improvements are in progress on many parts (mainly up to about 90 km after Salerno and up to about 100 km before Regio C. Modernized A3 is up to modern autostrada standards, old, however, are not. But also old Autobahns in Germany do not meet modern motorway standards (except maybe in mainteance), so there not to be very worried about Calabria autostrada. 

Overall, while not of good quality, whole A3 is a spectacular and very picturesque autostrada, "a must" for highway lovers. Probably the most impressive motorway in south Europe I've driven on beside Genova - Nice motorway.


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## ChrisZwolle

Lots of people mention Italy for having the first real Motorway road, but as far as i know, this is WRONG!

The road was only a 1+1 with even no barrier in between! 









The starting point of the autostrada Milano-Laghi in Lainate north-west of Milano in 1925 









Junction of two autostrada's near Milano in 1932, watch the many many HUGE billboards 









Bridges over the autostrada Toscana (Firenze-Mare), 1933 



> 1) Before 1945 there were no real autostrada, and for atostrada i mean 2 separate carriageway
> 2) The italian goverment started thinking about real autostradas during 1952-53 and one of the main purposes was (apart from modernizing the country) to raise FIAT industry.. better roads, better cars, more income (the economic boom in italy was arriving.. it occurred in the early 60s)
> 3) The first complete motorway opened was the A1 Milano-Roma together with the A2 Roma-Napoli on 1964


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## ChrisZwolle

Italian local signage is really crazy!


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## x-type

Chris1491 said:


> Italian local signage is really crazy!


crazy indeed, but i've allways liked it


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## Boeing!

Chris1491 said:


> What a mess there. Everything south of Rome in Italy is worse, i've heard. The A3 southbound to Reggio Calabria was one of the worst motorways ever. But pics of that road are very rare.


Naples is south of Rome and there autostradas are very good until Salerno(south of Naples) and also in Puglia(adriatice side)they're pretty good...A3 is improving right now(adding 3rd line).

While previous pictures refer to Sicily island where there isn't a large highway network.


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## Boeing!

Chris1491 said:


> Italian local signage is really crazy!


Italy is made up of lots of small villages and they need to be reachable


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## Nephasto

Pavlvs said:


> I'm sorry for my bad english.
> 
> You must know that, to Naples until Calabria, the highway called "Salerno-Reggio Calabria" (code A3), is a mountain-highway across the Apenines, with an impressive list of tunnels, viaducts, bridges, for 442 kilometers.
> It was finished in 1974, more than 30 years ago, being one of the oldest highway in Europe (in 1974 there weren't highways in France, Spain, Great Britain and east Europe).
> 
> Of course, being an old highway on and over the mountains, in some parts can be more narrow than a normal highway and in other parts can look more "old" than every other highway in Europe.
> 
> But be the first country to build highways (Milan-Lakes, the first highway in the world, 1924) is not a shame.
> 
> Actually the A3 is under a great plane of development for 20 billion €, an expensive plane to transform the old A3 in a new modern highway building new tunnels, bridges, viaducts.



20 billion € for rebuilding 442km?! That's about 45M€/Km, which is very expensive even for a new rural motorway! With that money they could easylly build a new one.


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## ChrisZwolle

As i see the A3, the road has to be completely rebuild at it's current place, and to be realigned. So it's a load of money, but it's worth it, it's the only fast road south of Salerno. 

Think of the Belgian renewed E25 and E411, because they building on the existing road, it looks like renewal, but in fact it was a completely rebuilding of the road, not just some new pavement.


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## Nephasto

^^Even so. It would probably be easier to build a new one. And it would be better.


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## ChrisZwolle

It's not that easy. The geography of Calabria is extremely difficult, and compromises a lot of mountain ranges that go steep up from the sea. So finding a whole new stretch is hard. 

This is the terrain the A3 goes through;


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## x-type

bah... after A10 everything is possible!


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## TohrAlkimista

x-type said:


> bah... after A10 everything is possible!


:lol: 


Anyway,this is a great problem here. The land generally sucks for the infrastructures! hno: 

there are a lot of territories in which it's hard to plan railways and highways! :bash:


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## keber

Chris1491 said:


> It's not that easy. The geography of Calabria is extremely difficult, and compromises a lot of mountain ranges that go steep up from the sea. So finding a whole new stretch is hard.


As I've seen, modernization of A3 is actually completely new motorway, which includes new tunnels (longer than current ones) and viaducts. Especially difficult is the last 50 km before Regio Calabria, because it involves big and long descent with only very high viaduct-long tunnel combinations. Current A3 has only 2+2 lanes without emergency lanes, ancient tunnels and (while impressive) long and extremely high viaducts in deteriorated state. Also current motorway is very curvy, so new motorway is quite straightened.
(I'll post some pictures later, that you'll see current state of A3)


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## Nephasto

Chris1491 said:


> It's not that easy. The geography of Calabria is extremely difficult, and compromises a lot of mountain ranges that go steep up from the sea. So finding a whole new stretch is hard.


Yes I'm aware of that. I don't know how are construction costs in Italy, but here in Portugal and Spain, with that price (45M€/Km), you could even build a freeway made of pure gold!! :colgate:






keber said:


> Especially difficult is the last 50 km before Regio Calabria, because it involves big and long descent with only very high viaduct-long tunnel combinations.


Well, from my experiance, Italian freeways are step inclinations free, because of the huge amount of tunnels!!
It's unbeliaveble. For example, last here I came from Austria and went to France (through northern Itally), and passing by all the mountain zones I've probably never seen climbs steper than 3% or so. Instead of step climbs you just build tunnels+tunnels+tunnels!! Where do you get the money for that!??
This is for sure one of the most fascinating things about Italian motorways... the sheer amount of tunnels.. like nothing I've ever seen elsewhere in europe.

Regarding that Calabria section, I guess it will be very difficult because by Italian norms you probably can't have inclinations with more than 3% or something like that. Here in Portugal or Spain for example we would have no problems with inclinations of 4 or 5%.


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## x-type

Nephasto said:


> Well, from my experiance, Italian freeways are step inclinations free, because of the huge amount of tunnels!!
> It's unbeliaveble. For example, last here I came from Austria and went to France (through northern Itally), and passing by all the mountain zones I've probably never seen climbs steper than 3% or so. Instead of step climbs you just build tunnels+tunnels+tunnels!! Where do you get the money for that!??
> This is for sure one of the most fascinating things about Italian motorways... the sheer amount of tunnels.. like nothing I've ever seen elsewhere in europe.


yes, that's true! it's fascinating me too! unfortunately, most of those tunnels are very unsafe and unequieped. i don't know if you know for that EuroTAP testing, but Italians have been banning testing of their tunnels because of extremely poor results. hno: i hope they will change it soon to better, although they have really huge work to do with it


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## GENIUS LOCI

Nephasto said:


> Well, from my experiance, Italian freeways are step inclinations free, because of the huge amount of tunnels!!
> It's unbeliaveble. For example, last here I came from Austria and went to France (through northern Itally), and passing by all the mountain zones I've probably never seen climbs steper than 3% or so. Instead of step climbs you just build tunnels+tunnels+tunnels!! Where do you get the money for that!??
> This is for sure one of the most fascinating things about Italian motorways... the sheer amount of tunnels.. like nothing I've ever seen elsewhere in europe.


That's true, and not only for motorways

Anyway to better see the difference of costruction respect other parts of Europe just run on A10 to Ventimiglia and then in France to Nice
Near Nice you'll find a very stepped stretch, so stepped they built a 'special lane' for trucks to climb it at a very slow speed 
And on the opposite direction they built on the whole run emergency wayout for trucks which evenctualy have their breaks broken thanks to step reduction










^^
I saw something like that even on the new _'atoroute'_ they built to reach Millau (the famous viaduct is part of that highway)


To be honest I know even in Italy there is something similar: near Catania (on A18) they built similar emergency way out for trucks
Here there is one of 'em


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## x-type

there is a lot of such things in France around Nice! and i know for one that thing in Slovenia, too


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## Nephasto

Yes, I'm familar with that situation GENIUS LOCI. The contrast is indeed very sharp!

We have some of those emergency wayouts here in Portugal too.
And the extra lane for slow vehicles in step climbs in motorways is a very common thing! You don't see that in Itally? Well, I guess not, as italian motorways are step climbs free. 

Some examples:
On portuguese A1:









On spanish A3:


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## keber

Actually I've seen some of those third lanes for trucks on A1 between Rome andi Firenze. And yes, some of Italian ascents are actually quite st*ee*p. Some trucks crawl 30km/h on them for quite some time.


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## ChrisZwolle

Italian tunnels are among the unsafest of Europe. The safest are generally in Croatia and other Eastern European countries with new tunnels. 

That's because those tunnels are fairly new, and constructed according to modern safety requirements, while most Alptunnels are decades old, and very out-of-date. 

The freakiest tunnel i've been in, was the Bielsa tunnel on the French/Spanish border. No lighting, and the tunnel was a few kilometers long, and sometimes bikers are in it too. Thank god the traffic was almost non-existent there.


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## Nephasto

^^I've got to see some photo's of those steep autostrade!! 

Some photo's of the beggining of the french A8, right after crossing the border from Italy:




















Really low speed limits!! Even taking into account it's a 6% downhill. Here in Portugal it would probably have only a 100Km/h limitation (like many 6% downhill cases on A25, for example). :colgate:
Still, as this A8 has a huge amount of traffic(and many trucks), I guess it's comprehensile.


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## Nephasto

Chris1491 said:


> Italian tunnels are among the unsafest of Europe. The safest are generally in Croatia and other Eastern European countries with new tunnels.
> 
> That's because those tunnels are fairly new, and constructed according to modern safety requirements, while most Alptunnels are decades old, and very out-of-date.



Indeed... the new tunels being built in Spain are also among the safest... I think the tunnel in Madrid which goes under the airport (M-111 or something) was considered the safest in Europe. The tunnels there are in portuguese A-23 are also among the top 10 or something.
As you said, if the tunnels are new, they're safe. As for the old ones, it's time to retrofit them.


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## x-type

wow! those photos from F-I border are rare and fantastic! do you have more?

the longest slow lane for trucks in Croatia is at going down to Rijeka at A6 - trucks are often going down in 2nd gear about 30-40 km/h.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Obviously one of the problems with italian tunnels (like quite everything else with our motorways) is that they quite always are 40/50 years old; and got those safety standards


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## x-type

indeed ^^


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## keber

*A1 - Autostrada del Sole*

From Bologna to Napoli/Naples - various pics:

Very old, narrow and curvy motorway between Bologna and Firenze. It is being upgraded and widened, but most of the work is still in beginning phases. Amazing and spectacular feeling, when driving, but you feel somehow unsafe. 

















One of many ancient tunnels on that section, literally black hole (except of inadequate lightning). One side of those tunnels feels like going through 19th century railway tunnels.









Various pics from Toscana and Umbria. Mostly autostrada is upgraded to modern standards. 

















































Signage:
- typical signage for junction









- typical signage for intersection of two autostradas (not very different from above, which I find wrong). Here around Firence/Florence, motorway is being reconstructed to 3+3 lanes.









- something like this should be on every busy motorway in the world. Showing minutes to arrival at destination - by my experiences pretty exact.









Widening (from 2+2 to 3+3+2 emergency lanes) of the only tunnel on A1 around Rome and this under traffic. Quite unique project. Project is now already going towards finish.

















Rome - Napoli section. Long, quite boring and even in rush hour not extremely busy (which I find somehow strange, regarding this is the only motorway connection between two big cities about 140 km apart):


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## GENIUS LOCI

keber said:


> Widening (from 2+2 to 3+3+2 emergency lanes) of the only tunnel on A1 around Rome and this under traffic. Quite unique project. Project is now already going towards finish.


That is a unique tecnique and it would be very interesting if in the future they will use it to wide many other tunnels

I saw works last quite a lot though; but it could be 'cause it is the first time they make that way... in the future probably they would work faster














































http://www.autostrade.it/opere/a1_orte_02.html?initPos=2


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## GENIUS LOCI

Anyway... yesterday they completed the works for 4th lane on A4 between Milano and Bergamo in direction of Bergamo and opened it to traffic

In September they will open even the opposite direction


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## Nephasto

That tunnel enlargement tecnique is awesome!! kay:


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## x-type

it is! i was allways wondering how is it done


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## GENIUS LOCI

I want to back in Liguria for a moment now

There is a little stretch of a planned _superstrada_ (*Aurelia bis*) which lies 1 kilometer South of A10
They built just the run from _Arma di Taggia _to _San Remo_ and I have no idea how long the whole project of the freeway should be
Surely its construction is taking too long time


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## Pavlvs

A3 Salerno - Reggio Calabria - Parco del Pollino










La Cisa


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## Pavlvs

A24 Roma-Teramo

Viadotto di Pietrasecca


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## Bahnsteig4

Does anyone have pictures of Orvieto as seen from A1?


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## keber

davidkunz/VIE said:


> Does anyone have pictures of Orvieto as seen from A1?


I think, this is the one:


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## GENIUS LOCI

^^
What a crap the guardrail on the right!!! :bash:


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## Pavlvs

VIADOTTO DI ROCCA PREBALZA on building


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## Pavlvs

PASSANTE DI MESTRE


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## Pavlvs

VIADOTTO SUL POLVECERA


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## Pavlvs

Tunnel del Gran Sasso (10km)


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## GENIUS LOCI

Pavlvs said:


>


Where is it? On A3?

Cool that viaduct with overlapped ways 

But why are they building another one?


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## keber

A3 certainly not. But old autostrada certainly is.

Probably original viaduct is in bad shape, so renovation actually means new construction.


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## Pavlvs

It's on Cisa highway.

http://fr.structurae.de/structures/data/index.cfm?ID=s0009835


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## Pavlvs

A25 ROMA-PESCARA










The Valle Peligna's viaduct by the train










Highway and railway


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## Pavlvs

Ponte della Valnerina










Dima di ancoraggio


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## Pavlvs

Pedemontana di Gioia Tauro
Viadotto Viacale


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## keber

*By popular demand ...*

Some various pictures by me of Autostrada A3 Salerno - Regio di Calabria. They are not very spectacular, with high road fences (crashbarriers), they can hardly be, if taken from the car.

A3 is a very interesting motorway, worth driving on it through whole, because of very impressive scenery and also interesting objects on autostrada, albeit some cannot be seen good because of high fences. Mostly is something like this:

























Typical (inadequate) distance sign (with beautiful oleander plants everywhere):









Reconstruction works towards Salerno:









Border between two regions:









Unfinished reconstruction:









Reconstruction of overpasses (about 7 on this section, they look exactly the same as pictured - about 100 km south of Salerno) has been obviously halted years ago, and still no sign of completion:hno:









Start of detour because of reconstruction, that was halted years ago (close to Vibo Valentia). Detours on A3 are otherwise very common. Vegetation takes its own way:
















There was a tunnel (sorry, no picture), whose construction started apparently at least 5, if not 10 years ago, but tunnel boring did not complete and concrete of this tunnel is now in very deteriorated condition.

Going through wildfire beside autostrada close to Rosarno (wildfires were very common sight and smell through whole Calabria):









Going up to the mountains in few tens km long ascent (north of Consenza) - those hilltops reach over 2200 m:

























On the top of that ascent there is something, I didn't see anywhere in the world. Autostrada ends for 500 m and is changed to two way road. But only for 500 m, terrain there is not very difficult - it would require about 150 long inexpensive viaduct, but was apparently never built - or something else happened, who knows.

















Viaduct around Scilla (close to Reggio):
















A paralleling motorway is in construction, going a bit lower than current one:









A bit north this monstrum can be seen (in my opinion at least 120 m high and almost 1 km long) - only one half can be seen, other was obstructed by the hill:









Overall, very interesting autostrada to drive, and when fully renovated (let say in some 5-7 years) it will be a joy to ride. But it is already now, even if pavement and objects are now very outdated. Number of tunnels and viaducts is even now immense, with reconstruction there will be even more of them.

From Salerno to intersection with superstrada for Potenza it is already 6 laned with emergency lanes on most sections (remaining sections are in construction), section 30 km further south is in construction (new motorway with 2+2+emergency lanes). Also construction of new motorway is from Rosarno to Regio di Calabria, traffic is now flowing only on 1+1 lane, which can lead to long travel times because of long ascents and large number of trucks, which cannot manage appropriate speed at ascent or descent. In between (about 250-300 km of motorway) almost nothing is happening right now, so most of the work is still to be done.


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## ChrisZwolle

Thanks for the pics! I was always wondering how the scenery looked. I doubt if i will ever drive it. Reggio Calabria is over 2300km from my home.


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## keber

Chris1491 said:


> Thanks for the pics! I was always wondering how the scenery looked. I doubt if i will ever drive it. Reggio Calabria is over 2300km from my home.


Actually Netherland tourists are one of the most common foreigners in Calabria. Never say never.


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## GENIUS LOCI

keber said:


> Overall, very interesting autostrada to drive, and when fully renovated (let say in some 5-7 years) it will be a joy to ride. But it is already now, even if pavement and objects are now very outdated. Number of tunnels and viaducts is even now immense, with reconstruction there will be even more of them.
> 
> From Salerno to intersection with superstrada for Potenza it is already 6 laned with emergency lanes on most sections (remaining sections are in construction), section 30 km further south is in construction (new motorway with 2+2+emergency lanes). Also construction of new motorway is from Rosarno to Regio di Calabria, traffic is now flowing only on 1+1 lane, which can lead to long travel times because of long ascents and large number of trucks, which cannot manage appropriate speed at ascent or descent. In between (about 250-300 km of motorway) almost nothing is happening right now, so most of the work is still to be done.


Thank you for that fantastic report

The problem with A3 works is local mafia ever could enter (with the complicity of local administrations) the renovation works with its almost fake societies which took the money, didn't make the work and then disappeared
For that works are so messy
Recently previous and current Governement intervened to control directely and changed the way of contracts allocation, and things are getting better...


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## TohrAlkimista

Yesterday I was travelling through the A21, called also "Autostrada dei Vini" (Highways of Wines), between Piacenza and Cremona.

I have to say it's really good kept, the pavement it's ok.

It's going to be updated in some parts to a 3-lanes Autostrada and the works are at a good point.

I saw that the works for the TAV (HSL italian network) are ok. The passage over the Autostrada is nearly completed.


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## CborG

Wow, some fantastic viaducts over there!


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## x-type

Pavlvs said:


> Tunnel del Gran Sasso (10km)


wow! i was allways wondering what it looks like! i think it is the longest tunnel in Europe with double tube


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## Bahnsteig4

>


Is that near Pizzo?


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## ChrisZwolle

Is it always so busy on the A14?

According to autostrade.it there is 145km of traffic jam between Bologna and Cattolica (past Rimini).


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## TohrAlkimista

Is one of the most important junctions of the italian network! it's always busy during the year and especially during the summer when there are millions people moving from north to south!

last preview says that this weekend will be 11 millions people travelling through the italian autostrade network!


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## TohrAlkimista

that's the actual situation on the network. now it's quite good, but this morning was a nightmare.

it's really a hard weekend, there are a lot of areas in which there are queues of 10 or more km.


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## TohrAlkimista

a usual "red" area, along the Adriatic Riviera. In the "Costa Romagnola", after Bologna and between Rimini and Riccione.











if you look at this link, you will find an interactive map.

press on the interested point, and you can see a zoomed map and the link for the webcams! 

http://www.autostrade.it/autostrade/traffico.do


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## GENIUS LOCI

davidkunz/VIE said:


> Erm,... it might be kind of a specific question, but can anyone tell me why S.G.C. FI-PI-LI is marked differently on maps and has lower speed limits than raccolto FI-SI?


Racco*rd*o FI-SI

I'm a suspicious guy: FI-PI-LI expressway is a good alternative run respect the A11 (Firenze mare) and with no toll
Then I think FI-SI is owned by Autostrade spa 

To hide on maps FI-PI-LI and not FI-SI (marked almost like a highway) I think is a trick to 'help' Autostrade spa to earn money :bash:

No clue for the difference in speed limits
Maybe they got different wide of their lanes










A more 'correct' map


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## wyqtor

Well, it probably has lower speed limits because officially only "green" Autostrade have 130 km/h. The "blue" Autostrade have no more than 110 km/h. When I say "green" or "blue" I am referring to the color of signs on the respective motorway. The green ones are usually tolled, but that's not a strict rule. And FI-PI-LI shows up as a dual-carriageway w/ motorway characteristics on viamichelin.

Also, it's a pretty neat trick from Autostrade s.p.a. to hide free alternatives on maps!  :lol: That's why it's always best to buy a Michelin map or check their website, http://www.viamichelin.com


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## Verso

^^ But also Florence (Firenze) - Siena is a blue autostrada (110 km/h).


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## GENIUS LOCI

wyqtor said:


> Also, it's a pretty neat trick from Autostrade s.p.a. to hide free alternatives on maps!  :lol: That's why it's always best to buy a Michelin map or check their website, http://www.viamichelin.com


That was exactly what I said in the first pages of the thread: michelin are way better to have a more accurate view on Italian highways and freeways

Unfortunately even Michel 'hides' some important freeways: obviously it bases its maps of Italy on TCI (Touring Club Italiano) maps and can't have the same accuracy it gives to France

About speed limits: FI-SI and FI-PI-LI are both freeways (blue) 
When you said difference of speed limits I thought one has 110 km/h and the other 90 km/h, 'cause they're the standards for freeways (the first is the 'true' standard but even 90 is often used),... sincerely I really don't know what are the speed limits on these two roads


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## Verso

Verso said:


> ^^ But also Florence (Firenze) - Siena is a *blue autostrada* (110 km/h).


I mean "superstrada".


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## GENIUS LOCI

Some pics of Catania-Siracusa motorway u/c



Pyquan said:


>


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## GENIUS LOCI

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Within this month they got to open the forth lane on A4 even on the other direction (Bergamo-Milano)


And infact today they open Bergamo-Milano direction

4 lanes in the whole stretch (and recently they told about a project to enlarge A4 from bergamo to brescia at 4 lanes too)


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## x-type

vogliamo le immagine!!!!!


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## GENIUS LOCI

^^
I want to see pics too, but I can't find'em :bash:


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## x-type

btw, now they can start building the 5th lane there, it's welcome there indeed :rofl:


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## OPO.RVK

Just a question.

How are the works in the "highway" Salerno-Regio Calabria?

I made one year ago that trip at night and, damned, it´s the most caotic, dangerous road i´ve ever been.

I hope that the things are better for the sake of the locals.

By the way, Napoli fantastica.


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## GENIUS LOCI

^^
From today they begin to work on the last stretch, but the works will last till 2012! :bash:


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## arriaca

keber said:


> You can see blue SOS-niche signs at some photos. On autostradas they are green.
> 
> When talking about SOS-niches on Italian autostradas: Even when they have emergency lanes in full length, wide and spacious SOS-niches are still present about every two kilometers and their distance is frequently and clearly signed on emergency lanes. I find that as very nice safety feature, not very common on European motorways.



That is not enough. In Spain all freeways and highways have emergency lanes. And state roads have emergency lanes 1,5 or 2,5 meters wide.


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## arriaca

keber said:


> You can see blue SOS-niche signs at some photos. On autostradas they are green.
> 
> When talking about SOS-niches on Italian autostradas: Even when they have emergency lanes in full length, wide and spacious SOS-niches are still present about every two kilometers and their distance is frequently and clearly signed on emergency lanes. I find that as very nice safety feature, not very common on European motorways.


That is not enough. In Spain all freeways and highways have emergency lanes. And state roads have emergency lanes 1,5 or 2,5 meters wide.


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## Verso

GENIUS LOCI said:


> And infact today they open Bergamo-Milano direction
> 
> 4 lanes in the whole stretch (and recently they told about a project to enlarge A4 from bergamo to brescia at 4 lanes too)


This stretch is now fabulous! So many new viaducts and overpasses have been built!! Ö I still remember "Cordioli & co."! :lol: Although they could've also fixed the old pavement, this whole combination looks kinda unsmooth, and sometimes the highway isn't that straight, does it have to be that way?


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## x-type

Verso said:


> Although they could've also fixed the old pavement, this whole combination looks kinda unsmooth, and sometimes the highway isn't that straight, does it have to be that way?


you sound like Radi


----------



## arriaca

*Strada Grande Comunicazione Firenze - Pisa - Livorno (S.G.C. Fi-Pi-Li)*

The second worse freeway than I have seen (The first is Firenze - Siena)


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

^^ I definitely wouldn't want to break down on that road. 

In Sacramento, there is a 3-km stretch of a 2x3 expressway without any emergency lane which always caused enormous slow downs. Add to that the fact that in America passenger cars are not required to carry the warning triangle (hell, some drivers don't even know about hazard blinkers), and it becomes a disaster waiting to happen hno:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'd barely call that a motorway-grade road. Not only the emergency lanes are missing, but the lanes are way too narrow, and there is no small em lane on the left (don't know how that's called in English, in Dutch it's "redresseer strook")


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> you sound like Radi


OMG, you're right! :lol: Long sentence adds to it, eh? :lol:


----------



## Verso

^^ :happy:! You just have to love mountains.  Interestingly I haven't yet driven between Tolmezzo and Palmanova, always exited the motorway to take the road to Cortina d'Ampezzo. uke: (not for Cortina, but that's what I'd always do (puke) before finally reaching it ) Those tunnel pics blew me away, David, how did you manage to shoot them so well?

And a question for Italians: how come there's a town called "*J*esolo", when there's no letter "j" in the Italian alphabet? (at least I think so)

P.S. for David: we're ready for more.


----------



## Bahnsteig4

> Those tunnel pics blew me away, David, how did you manage to shoot them so well?


ISO 1600 



> And a question for Italians: how come there's a town called "Jesolo", when there's no letter "j" in the Italian alphabet?


To make the zillions of Austrians feel at home...




> we're ready for more


Perhaps there'll be a little "Strada del Sole" in very early Jan...

Did you like the Austrian pics as well?


----------



## Verso

davidkunz/VIE said:


> ISO 1600


Ah, that's goood... Calm hand always helps though. 



davidkunz/VIE said:


> To make the zillions of Austrians feel at home...


:lol: Gotta make a trip there once. :cheers: And make sure it'll be in the middle of season, so I won't have to speak Italian. :lol:



davidkunz/VIE said:


> Perhaps there'll be a little "Strada del Sole" in very early Jan...


That'd be cool of course; how's with the **** to Venice though? Did you take boat?



davidkunz/VIE said:


> Did you like the Austrian pics as well?


Aber natürlich, haven't I made myself clear by now?  How couldn't I like pics of a mountainous land with great motorways? :cheers: Of course they are even nicer in real.


----------



## Bahnsteig4

Il ponte della libertà will follow.


----------



## Verso

:banana:


----------



## Bahnsteig4

...at night...


----------



## Bahnsteig4

Sorry, but that's all... I left Vienna at 11.30, right after my uni course (Integrated Language and Study Skills, English), so when I arrived in VCE, it was already dark.


----------



## Verso

^ By night, even better. :banana: Yah, I knew I'd fallen for it when I'd taken boat; it was romantic tho.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> And a question for Italians: how come there's a town called "*J*esolo", when there's no letter "j" in the Italian alphabet? (at least I think so)


this is the same question that i've asked my italian teacher while we learned alphabet and she said tha j, k and x exist in italian, but not in italian words. and then i came with Jesolo and Jesi  

photos are fabolous! what made me laugh are "men at work". couldn't they write "road works"?! or maybe they are just notifying that you can hear "downunder" at km 93


----------



## snupix

Fantastic photos, David! :banana:



x-type said:


> photos are fabolous! what made me laugh are "men at work". couldn't they write "road works"?! or maybe they are just notifying that you can hear "downunder" at km 93


That's what always makes me laugh in the US, the "Men at work" sign...


----------



## keber

Very good pictures, David. I thought you would take also picture of junction at Pontebba, which is nothing less than spectacular, but you would need to drive on old road.

Maybe someone will take the picture, when going for skiing to Nassfeld.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> And a question for Italians: how come there's a town called "*J*esolo", when there's no letter "j" in the Italian alphabet? (at least I think so)


So... the explanation is simple, read with care:


I don't know


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
Wait... I think in 'ancient' Italian (the so called _volgare_ used by Dante) 'J' was used in place of 'I' in some case, probably always if it was at the begginning of a word


----------



## Verso

Thanks, man.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Parma Tangenziale





















































Calatrava bridge (u/c) you can clearly see running on A1


----------



## Verso

A very interesting bridge! Do you have any photos of the widened part of the A4 (Milano - Bergamo) with all the new bridges and viaducts? They are fantastic! (Cordioli & co. can't get out of my head )


----------



## TohrAlkimista

Driving over the Calatrava's bridges in Reggio Emilia is truly amazing...


----------



## ady26

I like all the Italian highways!


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> Do you have any photos of the widened part of the A4 (Milano - Bergamo) with all the new bridges and viaducts? They are fantastic! (Cordioli & co. can't get out of my head )


Unfortunately there is not much on the web yet
That is everything I found



GENIUS LOCI said:


> Something from webcams
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.autostrade.it/opere/webcam/pop_a4_mi_bg.html





GENIUS LOCI said:


>




Talkin' about urban stretch of A4 in Milan, they decided to 'cover' the stretch crossing the municipality of Cinisello Balsamo (and why not add a lane meanwhile?) to try to stop noise and pollution for people living nearby

This is a pic of the stretch from Parco Nord looking to Cinisello (thanks to Milanomia)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What a sick exit there to that gas station...


----------



## radi6404

I wanted say that you make a very impressive job, not only in Italy with impressive viaducts and so on but also in toher countries, an Italian company has rehabilitated a long stretch of road year 2000 and it is still like brandnew and feels like brandnew altough there´s heavy car and tracktraffic on it. What has an Italian company done there I don´t know, are they as durative that they keep being black after 7 years, too?


----------



## dhlennon

TohrAlkimista said:


> Ok. Maybe there is a problem of the language. It's true, I tend to call bypasses Tangenziale. I don't find any other english word that suits well for it. :bash:
> 
> P.S. unbelievable, do you know the small Pavia...and also Max Pezzali?


I always thought the idiomatic rather than direct translations in English(UK) were passante = bypass and tangenziale = ring road.

I may be wrong of course :LOL


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I thought Tangenziale was more of a throughway or "spange" in German. A ring road is a raccordo, right?


----------



## dhlennon

*Stunning*

I have always loved Italian _autostrade_ mainly because of the impressive engineering in tunnels and viaducts. The signage is disappointing though.

My favourite drive is the A8 _La Provençale_ Nice/Nizza (F) - A10 _dei Fiori_ Genoa (I). Amazing.

Would love to see some photos of A23 (A)-Tarvisio-Udine though, another stunning motorway.
(thanks to davidkunz/VIE for those already posted)

ciao al tutti x


----------



## dhlennon

Verso said:


> And a question for Italians: how come there's a town called "*J*esolo", when there's no letter "j" in the Italian alphabet? (at least I think so)


from wikipedia:
The letters j (i lunga), k (cappa), w (vi/vu doppia), x (ics), and y (ipsilon/i greca), are not considered part of the standard Italian alphabet, but appear in loanwords (such as jeans, whisky, and taxi). X has become a commonly used letter in genuine Italian words with the prefix extra-. J in Italian is an old-fashioned orthographic variant of i, appearing in the first name "Jacopo" as well as in some Italian place names, e.g., the towns of Bajardo, Bojano, Buja, Castel di Judica, Jacurso, Jelsi, Jenne, Jerago con Orago, Jerzu, Jesi, Jesolo, Jolanda di Savoia, Jonadi, Joppolo, Lajatico, Letojanni, Majano, Mezzojuso, Mojo Alcantara, Montalbano Jonico, Pietraroja, Raccuja, Reana del Rojale, San Giuseppe Jato, Scanzano Jonico, Torre Cajetani, Vajont, Vejano, among numerous others, and in the alternate spelling Mar Jonio (also spelled Mar Ionio) for the Ionian Sea. J may also appear in many words from different dialects, but its use is discouraged in contemporary Italian, and it is not part of the standard 21-letter contemporary Italian alphabet.


----------



## dhlennon

Chriszwolle said:


> I thought Tangenziale was more of a throughway or "spange" in German. A ring road is a raccordo, right?


I think you might be right Chris. Thanks!


----------



## dhlennon

GENIUS LOCI said:


> I found that on the web... tanks 'invading' autostrada :nuts:
> They usually use trucks to transfer armoured military vehicles, anyway this model of tank (Centauro) reaches a speed of 100 km/h on road


I remember being in Germany as a child in the 1980s and there were army vehicles everywhere. Bad old times. Hooray New Europe !


----------



## FM 2258

These are not as beautiful as other pictures I've seen but here are some pictures from SS336 to E62 heading to Milano from Malpensa. Milano was a great looking city in my opinion. These were taken on the 8th of May, 2007 at about 9 in the morning.


----------



## SCWTC4

FM said:


> 2258;16862136]


? :crazy:

look at the ford focus in the middle


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Chriszwolle said:


> I thought Tangenziale was more of a throughway or "spange" in German. A ring road is a raccordo, right?


Raccordo means litterally '_link_'
A 'raccordo autostradale' is a motorway link between different motorways

You probably get confused 'cause of GRA (Grande Raccordo Anulare) of Rome
It means Big (_grande_) Ring (_anulare_) Link (_raccordo_)

Actually it is a ring road and conceptually a 'tangenziale' but I think they didn't call it 'tangenziale' because in inner city there was an express way named Tangenziale Est
Then there is not a word to translate 'ring road' actually, and Rome GRA is the only motorway ring in Italy built as one project (the other 'rings' are the sum of different tangenziali or motorways, as in Milan for istance)

There is the name '_circonvallazione_' used to indicate ring roads, but urban ones with crossroads at grade; in Milan we use to individuate many different concentric 'circles' in urban web and name 'em circonvallazione
But even here in this case there is nothing sure; in Rome the meaning is a bit different: they name circonvallazione urban roads (not expressway) which bypass, for istance, the historic core of a borough


----------



## FM 2258

SCWTC4 said:


> ? :crazy:
> 
> look at the ford focus in the middle


Yep, she just cut her way though traffic to get into the fast lane. I saw some crazy driving while in Italy especially with the motorcycles.


----------



## muc

Some time ago I read in ADAC Motorwelt (German automobile association magazine) that Italy had more tunnels than the rest of the EU combined (by numbers, not length).

Does anyone have acutal numbers on that? Would be interesting to know.


----------



## keber

Very possible. Only autostrada between Ventimiglia and Genova has about 50 tunnels. That's probably more than in whole Germany, Benelux, Poland, and EU part of Scandinavia combined.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah i think so too. Italy has an incredible number of tunnels, i think they have even way more tunnels than Switzerland and Austria combined, per kilometer motorway.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

muc said:


> Some time ago I read in ADAC Motorwelt (German automobile association magazine) that Italy had more tunnels than the rest of the EU combined (by numbers, not length).
> 
> Does anyone have acutal numbers on that? Would be interesting to know.


No source to give you, but I heard the same thing


----------



## x-type

keber said:


> Very possible. Only autostrada between Ventimiglia and Genova has about 50 tunnels. That's probably more than in whole Germany, Benelux, Poland, and EU part of Scandinavia combined.


it has more than 100  once i tried to count tunnels traveling from Barcelona to Croatia. i fell asleep somewhere between Savona and Genova, in that moment the number was about 120


----------



## GENIUS LOCI




----------



## FM 2258

GENIUS LOCI said:


>



Nice pictures. What does that sign mean with the red truck on the left and black car on the right? As I type this I think of "no truck passing" but while I was in Italy those were one of the signs I couldn't figure out.


Also I love those bridges but the ironic thing is when you're driving on them, they're built so well that you hardly notice you're so high up off the ground.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

FM 2258 said:


> What does that sign mean with the red truck on the left and black car on the right? As I type this I think of "no truck passing" but while I was in Italy those were one of the signs I couldn't figure out.


It means: overtaking prohibited for lorries











Or if you prefer: trucks must stay on right lane till they see that one


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

keber said:


> Very possible. Only autostrada between Ventimiglia and Genova has about 50 tunnels. That's probably more than in whole Germany, Benelux, Poland, and EU part of Scandinavia combined.


I wonder why you left Norway out of Scandinavia here :lol: The last count I have seen was from 2003, at which time Norway had around 1250 highway tunnels. But the number has increased since then. Having said that, the motorway along the riviera is a very impressing piece of engineering both on the French and Italian side of the border.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Let's check that on road tunnels in Europe http://www.dublincity.ie/Images/Microsoft PowerPoint - VladimirVlceksmall_tcm35-53246.pdf









Obviously there are all the tunnels under 1000 m too which are the most, I think


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

^^ 
Yes, and to be fair, the fraction dual carriage tunnels certainly is a lot higher in Italy than in Norway.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
Don't know in this list, surely with tunnels under 1000 mts is very likely (but it's due to the road network lenght)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You should drive the SS36 along lake Como. Maybe not a lot of tunnels of 1000m and more, but you'll drive more in tunnels than not in tunnels.


----------



## keber

54°26′S 3°24′E;16961228 said:


> I wonder why you left Norway out of Scandinavia here :lol: The last count I have seen was from 2003, at which time Norway had around 1250 highway tunnels.


Norway was intentionally left out. :naughty:

Still, Italy has also many many normal highway tunnels, combined with motorway tunnels, I think, Norway could be easily beaten. But I won't bet on it, I've never been to Norway.:lol:


----------



## Maxx☢Power

keber said:


> Norway was intentionally left out. :naughty:
> 
> Still, Italy has also many many normal highway tunnels, combined with motorway tunnels, I think, Norway could be easily beaten. But I won't bet on it, I've never been to Norway.:lol:


If you count only motorway tunnels, Italy wins by a longshot. 99% of tunnels in NO are two-way, two-lane and sometimes 1,5-laned  And the few motorway tunnels that do exist are constantly falling apart.. At least that's the impression one gets when watching the news..


----------



## geogregor

Hi Guys! 
How about prices of Italian motorways??
Is there any website where you can calculate easily how much it will cost you between points A and B?
Let say from Torino to Milan or to Genoa or some long distance like Torino to Rome.


----------



## keber

http://www.viamichelin.com

Otherwise, prices are comparable to other countries with such kind of tolls (France, Spain, Slovenia, Croatia - around 5-6 eurocents per km)


----------



## x-type

geogregor said:


> Hi Guys!
> How about prices of Italian motorways??
> Is there any website where you can calculate easily how much it will cost you between points A and B?
> Let say from Torino to Milan or to Genoa or some long distance like Torino to Rome.


http://www.autostrade.it


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Always from the same link










It would be interesting to know which of these ones are highway tunnels and which are not

For istance Gran Sasso got highway standard (two tunnels, one per direction, with two lanes)
While Monte Bianco (Mont Blanc), Frejus and Gothard have just one tunnel with two lanes (one per direction)


----------



## x-type

^^ Gran Sasso is the longest european double-tube tunnel, Plabutsch is second longest. i don't know about these chinese and japanese.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I hope to drive through the Gran Sasso tunnel in May.


----------



## x-type

Chriszwolle said:


> I hope to drive through the Gran Sasso tunnel in May.


as we are really in lack of photos of it, we're expecting you to change the current situation


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You bet.


----------



## keber

x-type said:


> ^^ Gran Sasso is the longest european double-tube tunnel, Plabutsch is second longest. i don't know about these chinese and japanese.


As I know, all Japanese and Chinese tunnels in this table are motorway tunnels. However any Norwegian one.


----------



## geogregor

keber said:


> http://www.viamichelin.com
> 
> Otherwise, prices are comparable to other countries with such kind of tolls (France, Spain, Slovenia, Croatia - around 5-6 eurocents per km)


Thanks!!
I didn't know they show cost of travel.


----------



## jkjkjk

GENIUS LOCI said:


> It would be interesting to know which of these ones are highway tunnels and which are not
> 
> For istance Gran Sasso got highway standard (two tunnels, one per direction, with two lanes)
> While Monte Bianco (Mont Blanc), Frejus and Gothard have just one tunnel with two lanes (one per direction)


Take a look at http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_further_tunnels_by_length#Road


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

keber said:


> As I know, all Japanese and Chinese tunnels in this table are motorway tunnels. However any Norwegian one.


[offtopic]
This thread is now severly off topic. Perhaps time to start a new thread?

There are very few motorways in Norway (around 200 km, I believe), and most of the longer tunnels in Norway are in remote areas at the west coast and in Northern Norway with relatively light traffic, and thus all the longest tunnels are single tube/two lanes.

The longest 2+2 tunnel in Norway is as far as I know Norbytunnelen on E6 south of Oslo, with length 3850 (both tubes). Not far behind is Fløyfjelltunnelen just north of central Bergen, with 3 825 m (longest tube) and 3195 m (shortest tube). However, there is a 2+2 tunnelproject under construction south of Bergen, which as far I have understood will be 8 km:








Still not enough to reach top ten.

However, there is currently large political push to build several new tunnel projects around the coast. Most interesting for the "record books" is a project to eliminate the ferries on the E39 north of Stavanger. They want to replace it with a 2+2 dual tube subaquaous motorway tunnel which will be more than 25 km long! 








Other plans that may result in long motorway tunnels are a new crossing 
of the Oslo-fjord (Moss-Horten) (10 km?), as well as a crossing of the Trondheim fjord (Trondheim-Fosen with subaquous exit for Frosta), which will be more than 25 km as well. Only the first 15 km, Trondheim-Frosta, which can be part of the E6, will probably have to be motorway, though.

It will be interesting to see any of these projects will be recommended in the national transport plan which will be presented in January and then be discussed in the parliament. The E39 project is certainly first in the pipeline, as they have done a large and comprehensive study. What is certain, however, is that the thrifty Norwegian road authorities never would have built any of these tunnels 2+2 if it hadn't been for new EU-regulations, that says that new tunnels more than 10 km long and 8000 AADT should have two separate tubes.
[/off topic]


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Bit OT



BBCNews said:


> *Italy truck strike causes chaos *
> By Christian Fraser
> BBC News, Rome
> 
> 
> 
> Italy's truck drivers are mounting a third day of demonstrations and blockades, leading to shortages of petrol and food across the country.
> Drivers are protesting against high fuel prices and long working hours.
> 
> The unions walked out of a meeting on Tuesday with Transport Minister Alessandro Bianchi, breaking off negotiations to end the strike.
> 
> The authorities say the blockades are unlawful and are warning drivers to remove them or face sanctions.
> 
> [...]


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7140172.stm


----------



## keber

Driving on A4 and fighting for your small place under the sun and between trucks, you sometimes wonder, if they strike every day.:lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

keber said:


> As motorway is almost 80 years old, you can't expect state-of-the-art exits.


Well, things can be reconstructed. We also have a motorway that´s over 70 years old, and doesn't have these features. Also a lot of old German exits are reconstructed. 

The tight corners is one thing, but the lack of acceleration lanes is the real problem here, because you can't catch up with traffic on the road.


----------



## keber

Chriszwolle said:


> The tight corners is one thing, but the lack of acceleration lanes is the real problem here, because you can't catch up with traffic on the road.


Oh, you can.:horse:


----------



## keber

A23 exit at Pontebba
from air








from the ground, pictured on parallel highway from east to west. Yes, everything on quite high viaducts.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Just UP...


----------



## GENIUS LOCI




----------



## ChrisZwolle

Where is that first pic? Sicily or Cantabria?


----------



## Verso

^ Isn't Cantabria in Spain? Did you mean Calabria? It's an impressive viaduct! As well as the tower in Bergamo in the lower photo. I just don't like that curve on the motorway.


----------



## PLH

Indeed, Cantabria is in Spain. 

Calabria seems OK


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah potato potahto 

Calabria ofcourse


----------



## keber

It's not A3, that's for sure.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

The pic is in Sicily: Palermo-Catania


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Just a coupple of pics from *Bari*, Puglia Region main city

Apulia got a big number of freeways


----------



## Sonic from Padova

TohrAlkimista said:


> Another pretty interesting project is the Viaduct of East Padua, in Veneto.
> 
> There will be 3 arches 30 m high, illuminated at night. a nice effect.


Some recent photos, enjoy it...


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
February?

Time to bring up this thread again
------------------------------------------------------------



Autostrada A4 close to Bergamo (old shot: they're still workin' at 4th lane...)










A4 in Milan










In Sicily with Etna on the Background










Railway and highway nearby in Albisola (A10)










Ouch... car crash on Fi-Pi-Li










Superstrada Biella-Cossato










Don't know where, but quite scary


----------



## ABRob

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Don't know where, but quite scary
> 
> http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1361/1210503787_091d9cc709_o.jpg
> http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1255/1210503469_494fbe6cd0_o.jpg


Is it this bridge?
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4828713
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/5303610
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4827785


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

ABRob said:


> Is it this bridge?
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4828713
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/5303610
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4827785


It should be Bagni di Petriolo on SS Siena-Grosseto (Tuscany) http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=...99687&sspn=0.010955,0.019784&ie=UTF8&t=k&z=16


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Junction in Sicily










That one in Abruzzo










Alps










Porsche cargo on A22










Still Abruzzo










Viaduct... I don't know where










Napoli tangenziale scary viaduct










A motorway close to Napoli CBD










Still Napoli tangenziale


----------



## RV

I heard a couple of years ago that they were closing a motorway viaduct in the city centre of Rome and they were going to demolish it. Which viaduct?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is no motorway in the center of Rome.


----------



## RV

Motorway or not, road viaduct anyway.


----------



## Sonic from Padova

Verso said:


> ^ Welcome to the exclusive club!


Thanks! 
this is the entire expressway (blue color) :


----------



## PLH

Is the connection between SS202 in Trieste and SLO border already completed?


----------



## keber

Not yet. Probably I'll check construction pace in Monday, maybe there is some news. As I know, they still work in the tunnel around Aquilina.


----------



## Verso

PLH said:


> Is the connection between SS202 in Trieste and SLO border already completed?


Only 0.5 km by the border. It should be completed this year.


----------



## PLH

^^ but not in 2 weeks time?


----------



## Verso

^ No, not really.  If I get it right, it should open on the 5th October and the remaining part of the Trieste bypass in November. Here's a video in Italian (12.06., choose realPlayer (by "izbira privzetega predvajalnika in kvalitete") and scroll to 13:44).


----------



## keber

Verso said:


> Only 0.5 km by the border. It should be completed this year.


Finally barriers were installed on overpasses of interconnection between Trieste bypass and new motorway. Still no signs of immediate completion.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

H123Laci said:


> Érd (SW of Budapest) will surpass it:
> it is surrounded by M7-M0-M6 and this 3/4 ring will be closed by the future M11...
> (pop.: ~70.000)


Actually it is conurbated with Budapest... it's a bit different situation

Anyway in Italy there are smaller cities that are going to have their own expressway ring... 
For istance Benevento (in Campania Region) which has about 63.000 inhabitants

http://maps.google.com/maps?key=ABQ...1329,14.778929&spn=0.045188,0.073729&t=h&z=14


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> ^^ So Padova has a complete motorway/expressway ring/orbital/beltway?


Ok... let's try to list cities with an expressway/highway ring

Obviously Rome and Milan wich are planning second and third belts, not Naples just because it is a coastal city but it has a very dense highway/motorway web... strangely not Turin just because in its SE part it is hilly and with pratically no inhabitants, any way they're planning to close the ring...

Anyway...

*Rome* http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=41.8...usuFPxli35KovOkM8j0KQ&oi=map_misc&ct=api_logo

*Milan* http://maps.google.com/maps?key=ABQ...45.462298,9.167747&spn=0.336634,0.589828&z=11

*Padova* http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.4...usuFPxli35KovOkM8j0KQ&oi=map_misc&ct=api_logo

*Parma* http://maps.google.com/maps?key=ABQ...=44.7995,10.324745&spn=0.085143,0.147457&z=13

*Lecce* http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.3...usuFPxli35KovOkM8j0KQ&oi=map_misc&ct=api_logo

I think those are the cities with a well defined ring completed (lack of major cities... but that's not strange: apart Rome, Milan, Turin, Bologna and Florence, other big cities are coastal: Naples, Palermo, Genova, Venezia, Bari, Catania...)

many others have a not completed ring

Of those ones a coupple which are going to complete the ring soon

*Modena* http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=44.6...usuFPxli35KovOkM8j0KQ&oi=map_misc&ct=api_logo

*Alessandria* http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=44.9...usuFPxli35KovOkM8j0KQ&oi=map_misc&ct=api_logo


----------



## TohrAlkimista

*Pavia* (70.000 ab) has not a completed ring, but upgraded with the "Tangenziale Nord", a northern section of its expressways system, some months ago.

http://maps.google.it/maps?f=q&hl=i...l=45.183126,9.18766&spn=0.07054,0.177841&z=13

It lacks of the southern section.


----------



## Verso

Thanks for the compilation! So the Lecce ring has really been twinned in its entirety, or it's a mistake?


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

TohrAlkimista said:


> *Pavia* (70.000 ab) has not a completed ring, but upgraded with the "Tangenziale Nord", a northern section of its expressways system, some months ago.
> 
> http://maps.google.it/maps?f=q&hl=i...l=45.183126,9.18766&spn=0.07054,0.177841&z=13
> 
> It lacks of the southern section.


There are other cities in the same 'conditions': Novara and Verona, for istance


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> Thanks for the compilation! So the Lecce ring has really been twinned in its entirety, or it's a mistake?


I think it is... sat google pics on Lecce are outdated...


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

*A4 Milano-Bergamo*










Experience a run on it (cool video)


----------



## Verso

^^ I love this section. All those new sound barriers and overpases (especially the railway one) are just great. And there's a section with the smoothest pavement I've ever seen.


----------



## TohrAlkimista

OMG, what kind of geek did the video!?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice video.

Why is Italy about the only country that add narrow shoulders and SOS lots, instead of fullsize shoulders?


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

TohrAlkimista said:


> OMG, what kind of geek did the video!?


Mmmh... going from Agrate to Bergamo by bus, he is German... anyone who flew on Orio Al Serio by AirBerlin?


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Chriszwolle said:


> Nice video.
> 
> Why is Italy about the only country that add narrow shoulders and SOS lots, instead of fullsize shoulders?


Generally this is a classical section of an Italian two lanes + emergency lane highway










Run lanes are 3.75 m and emergency lane 3 m... in the rest of Europe width is the same or even less; maybe yours is just an impression (maybe due to marks?)

---------------------------------------------

Take a look at this comparison between German autobahn and US highways http://www.ajfroggie.com/roadpics/autobahn/

In particular:

*Lane Width* 
_US_: 3.66m minimum - _DE_: 3m minimum - (_I_: 3.75m) 

*Right shoulder (emergency lane) width* 
_US_: 3.05m minimum - _DE_: Generally 2.6m - (_I_: Generally 3m)

*Left shoulder width* 
_US_: 3.05m minimum - _DE_: Generally there is no left shoulder - (_I_: Generally there is no left shoulder )


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Maybe it looks narrow because of the barriers right next to it. I wouldn't stop my car there for the world.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Italian motorways have much more objects, like tunnels and bridges. However, the problem in both countries seems to be the non-tolled motorways and expressways. I haven't that much experience in Italy, but the SS36 from Chiavenna to Lecco (at Lake Como) was in disrepair, and I heard similar stories about some other expressways in the region.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Is it just me?

I can't see pag 28 of this thread...

EDIT
After posting that I can see it


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Chriszwolle said:


> Italian motorways have much more objects, like tunnels and bridges. However, the problem in both countries seems to be the non-tolled motorways and expressways. I haven't that much experience in Italy, but the SS36 from Chiavenna to Lecco (at Lake Como) was in disrepair, and I heard similar stories about some other expressways in the region.


Not so much experience of France expressways, but the ones I've driven on were quite good


About Italy: sometimes they're good, sometimes bad
For istance, as I previously said in this thread Naples expressways (an impressive netweork) are in bad condition
While always SS36 (the stretch beetween Monza and Giussano in Milan conurbation) is in good condition, with 3 lanes + shoulder and postlamps for the whole run


----------



## Verso

Bad expressways and "expressways" I know of:

- RA17 (raccordo *autostradale* :nuts Villesse - Gorizia (Slovenia)

- SS202 Trieste bypass; pavement is fine, but it's very narrow and the speed limit is 70 km/h, but it's officially an autostrada :nuts:

- SS33 between Domodossola and A26 (horrible pavement :nuts

A good expressway I know of is the SS35 Milano - Meda. I don't remember the RA03 Firenze - Siena, which means it was fine, I guess. SS16 Cesenatico - Rimini was ok too, I think.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

has anybody any material about quick draining asphalt? It is not a much noticeable feature in ordinary weather but I noticed we've attained some interesting results i.e. moving in from abroad under heavy rain I noticed much less splashing and better visibility. Specs anyone?


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
According to _Autostrade spa_ official website at the end of 2007 74% of their own web had draining asphalt



> 74% POROUS BLACKTOP TO ALEVIATE SPRAY FROM RAIN
> 
> In 2007 over 11 million square meters of porous blacktop was laid, 5 times more than in 1999


http://www.autostrade.it/autostrade/assistenza.do?id=assi_sicu_drenante&initPosAra=3_3

_Highways with draining asphalt in 2006 
(it was 65% of the whole web)_









http://www.autostrade.it/en/index.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Porous Asphalt Concrete. Widely used on nearly all motorways in the Netherlands. I believe the highest percentage in the world.


----------



## msz2

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Viaducts


I'm really, really impressed of all these viaducts.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

GENIUS LOCI said:


> ^^
> According to _Autostrade spa_ official website at the end of 2007 74% of their own web had draining asphalt
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.autostrade.it/autostrade/assistenza.do?id=assi_sicu_drenante&initPosAra=3_3
> 
> _Highways with draining asphalt in 2006
> (it was 65% of the whole web)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.autostrade.it/en/index.html


Thanks. In most cases it seems like it's not even raining when you enter an Autostrada or most recent orbitals.

And thanks to Chris for his additional info of course.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Verso said:


> ^^ I love this section. All those new sound barriers and overpases (especially the railway one) are just great. And there's a section with the smoothest pavement I've ever seen.


try it at dusk, with the halogen lights along the top rim of the soundbarriers or doubledecker commuter trains passing overhead. It transmits...I don't know, a sense of...sheer energy. power. Might.

Maybe I'm just exaggerating.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

TohrAlkimista said:


> *Pavia* (70.000 ab) has not a completed ring, but upgraded with the "Tangenziale Nord", a northern section of its expressways system, some months ago.
> 
> http://maps.google.it/maps?f=q&hl=i...l=45.183126,9.18766&spn=0.07054,0.177841&z=13
> 
> It lacks of the southern section.


Quite good. We have a 95% northern bypass and an 85% complete southern bypass (these are rough figures taken as the crow flies) They both are fully operational but lack the final km U/C and under approval respctively to reach the A22 that will serve as Eastern bypass. A22 will be soon upgraded to 2x3-

We seriously miss a Western bypass that would surely solve all traffic problems but should cross nature sanctuary and meets stubborn resistence.
I wish theyìll fnd a compromise and possibly build a lndmark bridge across the river.

City pop. 50.000. Conurbation 120.000


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Chriszwolle said:


> Maybe it looks narrow because of the barriers right next to it. I wouldn't stop my car there for the world.


lotsa trucks and the cumbersome proximity of industrial buildings..all conjure to squash the pictures and make everything look smaller. 

Milan's Tangenziale may look like and alley in the day. Try it around 9PM when it's virtually empty and you will notice how broad it ifeels...

++++++++++++


Gee I love this infrastracture section...maybe you guys've noticed...


----------



## keber

WalkTheWorld said:


> Milan's Tangenziale may look like and alley in the day. Try it around 9PM when it's virtually empty and you will notice how broad it ifeels...


^^ True, same for Mestre bypass (old one) at 5 AM. Looks very broad (only rightmost lane is filled with trucks, other two lanes are completely empty), two hours later everything is filled up.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

WalkTheWorld said:


> Thanks. In most cases it seems like it's not even raining when you enter an Autostrada or most recent orbitals.


Obviously data are referred only to _'Autostrade per l'Italia'_ network... many hignhways are not on this network, burt I would say the percentage of draining asphalt is the same

At contrary I think there are few expressways with draining asphalt


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

WalkTheWorld said:


> try it at dusk, with the halogen lights along the top rim of the soundbarriers or doubledecker commuter trains passing overhead. It transmits...I don't know, a sense of...sheer energy. power. Might.


:nono: Drunk drivin' is forbidden  :cheers:


----------



## WalkTheWorld

GENIUS LOCI said:


> :nono: Drunk drivin' is forbidden  :cheers:


But it's fun!!!!!
:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:


----------



## Coccodrillo

The railway Genova-La Spezia has been doubled in the past, building new double track tunnels.

The tunnels of the old railway has thus been reused for local roads, with alternate traffic every 20 minutes on a single lane. Some tunnels are short, some are up to 2.5 km in length.

http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/Foto6.asp?File=moneglia&Tipo=index&Righe=50&Col=5

http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/foto6.asp?File=moneglia&InizioI=1&RigheI=50&Col=5

http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/foto6.asp?File=moneglia&Inizio=16&Righe=15&InizioI=1&RigheI=50&Col=5


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

I didn't know that... very interesting


Lovely pic...


----------



## Verso

Interesting idea.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

PICS BY VYNKCE, dutch forumer of autosnelwegen.nl










Aankondiging brandstofprijzen:









A1 Dir. richting A1:









Afrit Rieti:









Aankondiging tolplein:









Serviceplaats:









Tolplein:









Aankondiging knooppunt A1 dir. met A1:









Knooppunt A1 Firenze - Napels:









Wazige brug op A1 richting Firenze:









2x3 tunnel:









Aankondiging wegenwerken:









Afrit:









Wegrestaurant:









Actuele reistijd tot Orte en Arezzo:









Wegenwerken, versmalling naar 2 rijstroken binnen 100m:









Afrit Magliano:









Magliano 850m:









Linkerrijstrook nog steeds afgesloten:









Actuele reistijden, Valdichiana en Arezzo:









Zeer wazige afrit Orvieto:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Okay, my comments on this horrible signage:

1) Overhead signs are useless if the arrows don't correspondend with the actual road situation (one arrow for two through lanes for example, or exit arrow above the right through lane)
2) Road numbers, they seem to randomly pick A or E-numbers. Very confusing and inconsistent. 
3) A-numbers often not readable at 130km/h, unless you're very close. 
4) Lack of destinations signed, often only one city is signed for hundreds of kilometers, but other (often signifcant) towns are not signed. 
5) (In)direct signage of road numbers, you have no idea if this is the current road number, or a road number that is to be crossed ahead. 
6) Exit signage is too small to be readable from an acceptable distance.


----------



## x-type

Chris, you're making me scared a bit, i'll do similar trip in one month (Ancona - Orvieto - Napoli and back to Ancona, but via l'Aquila). i hope i'll have no problems


----------



## Verso

You're doomed.


----------



## trainspotting

msz2 said:


> I'm really, really impressed of all these viaducts.


Is that the A20 Highway (Villa-Buonfornello) ?


----------



## trainspotting

Look at these videos about A20 and A3...

Castelbuono Exit / Svincolo Castelbuono Autostrada A20 

Driving Autostrada A20_Southern Italy - Kill_Your_Television

Driving Autostrada A20_Southern Italy - Vista

Driving Autostrada A3_Southern Italy - Sidewinder

Driving Autostrada A3_Southern Italy - Advantage_Point_West

Castelbuono Exit / Autostrada A20

Driving Italian Motorways Trailer

Driving Autostrada A3 Sidewinder_Beta_Videogamez Version ("Sidewinder" With HUD)

Driving Autostrada A3 Sidewinder_Demo_Beta_Tutorial Version (HUD 'n Parlato w/o Music)

Enjoy !


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Chriszwolle said:


> Okay, my comments on this horrible signage:
> 
> 1) Overhead signs are useless if the arrows don't correspondend with the actual road situation (one arrow for two through lanes for example, or exit arrow above the right through lane)
> 2) Road numbers, they seem to randomly pick A or E-numbers. Very confusing and inconsistent.
> 3) A-numbers often not readable at 130km/h, unless you're very close.
> 4) Lack of destinations signed, often only one city is signed for hundreds of kilometers, but other (often signifcant) towns are not signed.
> 5) (In)direct signage of road numbers, you have no idea if this is the current road number, or a road number that is to be crossed ahead.
> 6) Exit signage is too small to be readable from an acceptable distance.


Hi, let me try and answer to this. As a general rule when I travel abroad I try not to think that everything works like home or I0m lost. Inedded some kind of standardization at EU level is anyway desirable. I also know well that the older the highway (or the more you go down south ) signage worsens


Overhead signs are useless if the arrows don't correspondend with the actual road situation (one arrow for two through lanes for example, or exit arrow above the right through lane) *not much point. It is not a city street and we have little if no divergence outside of metro areas. Right arrow is the exit, go straight and you remain on the highway to the previously set destination*
2) Road numbers, they seem to randomly pick A or E-numbers. Very confusing and inconsistent. 
Normally it's A or A/E, you never find E alone. After 50/60 years of Autostrade people remeber the way by the old number end the European numbers are slow to pick up and comonly used for superstrade only

3) A-numbers often not readable at 130km/h, unless you're very close. 
*Again, this is the way we think. A's are terminal to terminal. If you travel on the A22 and merge into the A4 either to Bergamo or Padua, you will follow the destination signs Milan or Venice because that's the way the road plan is set.You never try to pick the A number because memory is tricky and you prefer to read the city name you're heading to.*
4) Lack of destinations signed, often only one city is signed for hundreds of kilometers, but other (often signifcant) towns are not signed. 
*Long city names, plenty of POI's. Writing too much is confusing. If you drive at random you will get lost everywhere. You must know waht your exit is.*

5) (In)direct signage of road numbers, you have no idea if this is the current road number, or a road number that is to be crossed ahead. 
*On highways..it's the number of the road you are merging in.*
6) Exit signage is too small to be readable from an acceptable distance.[/
*Often true, but exists are announced repatedly starting from 1.000 m ahead and additional huge marking are written in white on the hardtop, what are you looking at? Check the traffic and hang a right, we've got to quit here....:lol:*


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Verso said:


> You're doomed.


he'll be strumatized...


----------



## -Pino-

Despite some obvious problems in the Italian concept of signposting, I can usually find my way there without too many problems. Better than in many other countries. You just have to get used to some Italian concepts of signposting. But hey, that's easier than getting used to the way the Italians drive or their road design.

Here are the hints:
- Ignore all stack signs with 6+ focals on them. They are there for one-off reference, but you won't be able to use those focals when finding your way. Next intersection they're probably gone.
- Don't try to use road numbers. Italians apparently don't like them and make life as difficult as possible for those that do.
- Exit signage starts relatively late, but the signs in the median help you counting down towards the next exit.
- Don't think that arrows on overhead signage are there to show which lane goes in which direction, even if they seem to be dividing the lanes.


----------



## x-type

trainspotting said:


> Look at these videos about A20 and A3...
> 
> Castelbuono Exit / Svincolo Castelbuono Autostrada A20


this exit looks amazing!


----------



## trainspotting

and it has been built and open in the 1998.


----------



## x-type

i have a question - are those blue lanes at toll stations (viacard) reserved for card payment (including credit cards)?


----------



## H123Laci

x-type said:


> Chris, you're making me scared a bit, i'll do similar trip in one month (Ancona - Orvieto - Napoli and back to Ancona, but via l'Aquila). i hope i'll have no problems


I suggest you to buy a PNA (GPS).
if i'd have to describe it with 2 words, I'd say: f*cking cool! :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah I have a TomTom too, though I will only use it in cities I guess.


----------



## x-type

H123Laci said:


> I suggest you to buy a PNA (GPS).
> if i'd have to describe it with 2 words, I'd say: f*cking cool! :cheers:


well, i'm thinking aboutit for some time but somehow allways i give up because i rarely drive outside of Croatia, and here i know each goat path


----------



## Coccodrillo

x-type said:


> i have a question - are those blue lanes at toll stations (viacard) reserved for card payment (including credit cards)?


Yes. They can be used with both credit and prepaid cards.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

x-type said:


> i have a question - are those blue lanes at toll stations (viacard) reserved for card payment (including credit cards)?


http://www.autostrade.it/en/news4.html


----------



## wyqtor

Some 8 months ago, I promised Verso some more pictures of the Aosta Valley motorway, but I couldn't be bothered to wait hours on my slow upload speed. However, my ISP decided to increase it today, so here are the remaining pictures, with some nice views of the Mt. Blanc range:















































































































































































































































































A few thoughts: the scenery is almost surreal, let's just say these pictures simply don't do justice to the sense of scale witnessed on the spot.

Also, between Aosta and Courmayeur the motorway goes more below ground (in tunnels) than above it in a string of 5-7 km tunnels.

With the risk of sounding like Radi, I have to say the Mont Blanc Tunnel is a piece of technological mastery, with blue and yellow lights on the sides which resemble those of an airport runway . They even provide radio inside it, with the main frequency sometimes overridden by traffic announcements concerning the tunnel.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A view to a kill.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Under no circumstances I am going to post it since it would violate the basic rules of this forum and would also be a sick show, but most online edition of our major newspapers provide links to footage from A4 CCTV on the horrible accident killing 8 this week.

Some food for thought..wherever filmsy median barrier meants for military purposes are still in place...well they must be removed. Cold War is over. This should bring some second thoughts on those using cable barriers as well.

R.I.P.


----------



## keber

Maybe you could just make some summary of this accident?


----------



## keber

I've seen video, it was on news. Interesting, how easily did the truck cut through middle barrier onto other side of motorway. And I always thought, that Italian metal barriers are the strongest one. At least they look like that. Seems like, they aren't that safe.

Also, upgrading to 2x3 arangement from Venezia to Palmanova is very necessary. Huge amount of trucks are more and more making big problems.

Anyone,who wants to see video of this terrible accident from traffic camera, look at youtube under "incidente trieste venezia".


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wow, that's bad. Why did that truck just move to the left? Was the trucker blacked-out? Well, seeing that explosion, the truth is probably hard to investigate. It surprises me how easy the truck runs through the central barrier. We have those too in the Netherlands, however these kind of accidents almost never happen.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

On another video, I saw that barrier was only 1 row. If a truck is crashing through a barrier, it surely shouldn't be with this kind of speed. They are supposed to be nearly stopped.


----------



## HD

that was one of the most horrific things I've seen on TV 


how could that happen ...


----------



## keber

Probably front left tire exploded. You don't need much for that kind of accident.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

keber said:


> Probably front left tire exploded. You don't need much for that kind of accident.


Seems plausible. The pressure of the explosion alone can damage a car driving next to it. To be frank, it also almost looks like a suicide attempt.


----------



## Skyprince

Italian highways are kewl

I think there is something "weird" about this kind of signboard ( as shown below ) - I think it wud be better if they use lower case , plus adding more places on the board. That will be kewler ! :cheers:



Chriszwolle said:


> Afrit Magliano:


----------



## H123Laci

Chriszwolle said:


> To be frank, it also almost looks like a suicide attempt.


Yeah, he targeted the truck on the other side...
(I don't think a tire defect could cause such a violent direction change)


----------



## H123Laci

x-type said:


> well, i'm thinking aboutit for some time but somehow allways i give up because i rarely drive outside of Croatia, and here i know each goat path


Well, it's time to drive more often... :lol:

I prefer austria... (sorry italians... :lol


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet, at least, I don't remember but are there any tables/maps/etc with Italian traffic volumes?


----------



## x-type

a thursday i'll make a journey in central and south Italy - i hope i'll do lots of photos of A1, A3, A24 and A14, just as SS76, SS3, SS75 and SS690


----------



## Ni3lS

Nice pics from the way to the Mont Blanc. I drove that same way this summer


----------



## Norsko

On some Italian gantry signs the arrows may point upwards, while they points downwards on other signs. Is there a reson for this? Do this occure for a reason or is it just a different design?


----------



## keber

H123Laci said:


> (I don't think a tire defect could cause such a violent direction change)


Actually, if you've missed "in other news", this week 13 people died in bus in USA, which drove off the road because of tire puncture.

Really, tire puncture can easily cause that sort of accident. Rarely, but if, then violently.


----------



## keber

Norsko said:


> On some Italian gantry signs the arrows may point upwards, while they points downwards on other signs. Is there a reson for this? Do this occure for a reason or is it just a different design?


Philosophy is like this: arrows point upward and left, if gantries are far from exit and down left (like: "you turn right very soon"), if they are close to exit ("now you turn on right exit lane")


----------



## trainspotting

x-type said:


> i have a question - are those blue lanes at toll stations (viacard) reserved for card payment (including credit cards)?


Yep; and yellow lanes reserver for TelePass (i have rechargeable TP).
There are also double-way tool stations, where you can pay with viacard and by Telepass client device, or cash pay + telepass toll stations.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

H123Laci said:


> Well, it's time to drive more often... :lol:
> 
> I prefer austria... (sorry italians... :lol


How can we blame you, the landscape is like Hungary and the language is easier...:lol:


----------



## WalkTheWorld

HD said:


> that was one of the most horrific things I've seen on TV
> 
> 
> how could that happen ...


That's one old stretch of A4 
I guess it was one of those "easy removing" barrr that could backup as emergency runways. It is no longer necessart. The standard, twin barrier with bracings would have stopped the vehicle.

Anyway...it swerved wildly so I guess we can rule out booze.A flat tire is na option, or a suspension braking. or just pot..pushing hime to avoid something that ---uhm---was not there.

Again I can rule it out. People can do that and much worse but the basic problem is a "no compromise" economy wanting everything and right now, the main cause of labor accidents in this country. I guess it was sleep deprivation. The guy thought he was hitting the cehicle in front of him, while it was still far away. Foreignn freighters are the courier of choice because of lower price, but there's little means to enforce the law upon them. Suggestion from other hi-intensity-traffic countries are welcome.


----------



## HD

what was the cause of the accident? did they find out already?


----------



## trainspotting

*MOTORWAY A20 MESSINA-PALERMO (ITALY)*

Hi.
I'm opening this thread because maybe many people (mostly italians) care about this motorway linkin' the Messina Strait to Palermo.
Here can be posted news about the management and maintenance of this road. We can discuss for a while this artery that me and other autists run it usually or seldom.

This motorway (or highway) uses pay tolls and it was completed in December 21th 2004. It's a very important road for the Region of Sicily, because connect Palermo to Messina Strait, necessary for who goes to Calabria or other regions. It was calculated a traffic of about 21 millions vehicles in the year 2003. It runs along two Provinces: Messina and Palermo.

The first road segment, the Messina Beltway with the following exits is toll-free. The exits are: Messina Sud - Tremestieri, Messina San Filippo, Messina Gazzi, Messina Centro, Messina Boccetta, Messina Giostra (in costruzione) Messina Annunziata (in costruzione) e Messina Nord - Villafranca Tirrena.

The existing Stations, or Service Areas beside the motorway are

To Strait/Calabria: Caracoli, Acquedolci Sud, Tindari, Olivarella Sud, Divieto.
To Palermo: Divieto , Tindari, Caracoli.

The main tool barriers are located between Villafranca Tirrena exit and Buonfornello exit and at every other exit/entry junction. Once upon a time there was the Furiano tool barrier, but temporary gate before the activation of all pay toll barrier included in the lane between Furiano (ME) and Buonfornello (PA).

All exits or entries junctions between Messina and Palermo Beltways are: Messina Nord-Villafranca Tirrena, Rometta, Milazzo-Isole Eolie, Barcellona Pozzo di Gotto, Falcone, Patti, Brolo, Capo d'Orlando, Rocca di Capri Leone, Sant'Agata di Militello, Furiano (temporary and no longer active), Reitano-Santo Stefano di Camastra, Tusa, Castelbuono, Cefalù, Buonfornello-Interc. A19-Termini Imerese Est, Agglomerato Industriale, Termini Imerese, Trabia, Altavilla Milicia, Casteldaccia, Bagheria, Villabate.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wrong topic? Does this need to be in the Italian forum?


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## DJZG

yep... didn't understand a word of it


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## Verso

Thanks for the photos, wyqtor! The views are stunning! I like the inverted photos. 

And what an accident; I had no idea; it happened just a few hours after I drove there. :runaway:


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## trainspotting

I've created another version of this thread, in the Italian Forums.
This one has been edited to adapt it to other non-italian forum thread groups.
Happy read !


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## Mateusz

But there is already here thread about italian motorways...


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## RipleyLV

Maybe the point of this thread is in the first rubric! 



trainspotting said:


> I'm opening this thread because maybe many people (mostly italians) care about this motorway linkin' the Messina Strait to Palermo.
> *Here can be posted news *about the management and maintenance *of this road*. We can discuss for a while this artery that me and other autists run it usually or seldom.


He want's us to discuss this A20 motorway in a severall thread!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's 2.300 kilometers to Messina from here, so I don't think I will visit Sicily soon. Although it looks like a very nice area.


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## trainspotting

RipleyLV said:


> Maybe the point of this thread is in the first rubric!
> He want's us to discuss this A20 motorway in a severall thread!


U wrong, dude; my first intention was to create an italian thread (just done). By now i posted it for mistake, so i prefer to leave this version online in order you can comment it. I'm gonna leave this thread active, also for i cannot delete it.
Should be concerned ?


----------



## trainspotting

Universally speaking; this is specific about a single highway, the A20 [E90]. To get to Palermo u must take the A1 "Autostrada Del Sole" from Milan til Naples, then run onto the A3 Napoli-Salerno-Reggio to Villa San Giovanni Exit, and once you are in Messina (on the other side), take the related highway, A20 to Palermo direction. U gotta fuel and money (for toll fee's, stops, refuels, and much more) . But coming over here is up to you.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

ChrisZwolle said:


> Wow, that's bad. Why did that truck just move to the left? Was the trucker blacked-out? Well, seeing that explosion, the truth is probably hard to investigate. It surprises me how easy the truck runs through the central barrier. We have those too in the Netherlands, however these kind of accidents almost never happen.


True... infact that was due mostly to the angle of impact, almost at 90°

On highway they normally use to place those two New Jersey elements with soil between 'em to fill and make more stable in case of impact with trucks, when they use concrete barriers, and they're way more effective than steel barrier expeccially against leap-frogging to the opposite carriageway

Though the most effective way to avoid these kind of accidents is American Interstates one: dozen of meters to divide the two carriageways; obviously to do that you need American landscape vastness which allows an extensive use of soil


----------



## Verso

Some pics of the northern part of Trieste bypass (RA13). The pics are taken from http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?3,107518.

Entering SS202 from Rijeka, continuing for Venice/Venezia.









The missing link of Trieste motorway bypass is U/C.


















Unlike many maps show, the RA13 is and has always been a (real) motorway.













































Yay. :colgate:































































Sistiana; my mum bathes here a lot. 









After Sistiana (exit for the center of Trieste from direction Venice) we're on A4.




































The last exit, free of charge.









Pay toll Trieste-Lisert.



























Trieste airport.






















































Junction with A23.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://lupiros02.lu.funpic.de/s-2008-07m/s-2008-07-4490.JPG

This shows very well what's wrong with the Italian road guidance and signage. If you're not known to the area, or there's a truck driving in front of you, you can't see otherwise but this right lane to exit. I never understood why Italians don't change their signage to something that's more correct.


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## nebunul

^^ That's not the only sign ... as per example below ... You'd need to miss 2-3 signs at least


Verso said:


>


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## Verso

^^ I think he's talking about the sign for going right, as if you won't be able to continue straight forward on the right lane.

Have you guys noticed the same blue BMW at the beginning and the end of the road? Was it you, Chris?


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## Timon91

Nice pics Verso 
And Chris has a Kangoo


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## Verso

Ah, right. It must have been you then.


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## Timon91

Who knows? :lol:


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## x-type

interesting how they mix slovenian and italian names, so there are both Ljubljana and Lubiana, Gorica and Gorizia, Trebiciano and Trebče...
those signs with kilometer marks to the beginning (inizio) of motorway are interesting, but i prefer style with name of interesection and little intersection sign beside


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

x-type said:


> interesting how they mix slovenian and italian names, so there are both Ljubljana and Lubiana, *Gorica and Gorizia*


Wait... the signage says Gorizia and Nova Gorica: the first one is a city in Italy and the second one is a Slovenian city

Ok, they are so close that they could even be merged together and their name has the same root 'cause they have a common history (Nova Gorica means New Gorizia: pratically a new settlement off the city of Gorizia when it was founded)
But anyway the signage indicate as _Gorizia_ the Italian city and _Nova Gorica_ the Slovenian one


----------



## Mateusz

Are there any pics of A23 ? :cheers:


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## Verso

^^ The same as now probably. I mean, it's already RA17 = *r*accordo *autostradale* #17.


----------



## Rijeka

Verso said:


> The 4-lane road ("expressway") RA17 Villesse (A4) - Gorizia - Slovenia (H4) will be turned into motorway at the end of 2012.
> 
> http://ilpiccolo.repubblica.it/noti...ro-dicembre-2009/41999587?edition=EdRegionale
> 
> 3 motorways between Italy and Slovenia. :cheers: If there was a direct motorway between Trieste and Rijeka, it would be 4. :nuts:


I suppose there would still be 3, no? Isn't Slovenia going to connect the future motorway from Croatia via Ilirska Bistrica to Divaca, that is, the actual A3?


----------



## sts

News from Trieste:that's the new superstrada called trasversale est (eastern ring)Lacotisce-Rabuiese that will connect the city with Koper/Capodistria in Slovenia!



















and here's the new Cattinara-Padriciano


----------



## Rijeka

^^ Finally. They are doing those sections for ages. Any idea when will both of them be finished?


----------



## Verso

Rijeka said:


> I suppose there would still be 3, no? Isn't Slovenia going to connect the future motorway from Croatia via Ilirska Bistrica to Divaca, that is, the actual A3?


That's why I wrote "if". 



sts said:


>


The blue sign is interesting:
1. Pesek is in Italy, not Slovenia;
2. I'm surprised it's written (only) in Slovenian, b/c the Italian expression is "Pese" (without "k", which doesn't exist in the Italian alphabet anyway);
3. OTOH Basovizza is written only in Italian, despite being a bilingual village ("Bazovica" in Slovenian)

Anyway, great 'news'! :cheers: Is there already a designation chosen for the Lacotisce-Rabuiese expressway?


----------



## sts

^Hi!The blue sign is correct,why some years ago Italy (and the region Friuli-Venezia Giulia) approved a new law which take chance to the villages to be renamed as they were called before fascism!So,nowadays the two villages of Pesek and Dolina have the old name,and that's considered the only accepted,and the fascist names of Pese and san Dorligo della Valle are cancelled!But I really don't know why Basovizza is written only in italian!And the "slo" after the name of Pesek show the right direction to the border!
Good news,guys,the Lacotisce Rabuiese will be open before the end of october!!And Cattinara.Padriciano in november!!
Bye!!


----------



## Rijeka

Thanks for the info. Great news! :banana:


----------



## Verso

sts said:


> ^Hi!The blue sign is correct,why some years ago Italy (and the region Friuli-Venezia Giulia) approved a new law which take chance to the villages to be renamed as they were called before fascism!So,nowadays the two villages of Pesek and Dolina have the old name,and that's considered the only accepted,and the fascist names of Pese and san Dorligo della Valle are cancelled!But I really don't know why Basovizza is written only in italian!And the "slo" after the name of Pesek show the right direction to the border!
> Good news,guys,the Lacotisce Rabuiese will be open before the end of october!!And Cattinara.Padriciano in november!!
> Bye!!


Oh, I get it now (I thought of the SLO was just pointing towards Slovenia, not necessarily Pesek being in Slovenia). The thing with Pesek is still interesting though, as the letter "k" doesn't exist in the Italian alphabet.  But then again, I remember places like Jesolo, and "j" doesn't exist in the Italian alphabet either.


----------



## x-type

J and K exist in italian alphabet, but they don't appear in originally italian words. although i don't know how to explain Jesi or Jesolo, that's what i asked my italian teacher and she couldn't give me the right answer


----------



## Mateusz

What are the parameters for autostrada and superstrada ?


----------



## x-type

in Italy it is quite clear - SS's don't have emergency lane, while A's allways have it


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't call the Italian emergency lane a real emergency lane. A truck doesn't even fit on it and I don't want to change a tire on it. But they have many SOS lots to make up for it.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

x-type said:


> in Italy it is quite clear - SS's don't have emergency lane, while A's allways have it


Sometimes same questions come out

That's not a rule... there are SS with emergency lane and A's without it.

The rule says: 
-Autostrada has green signage and max speed on it is 130 km/h
-Superstrada has blue signage and max speed is 110 km/h (or less frequently 90 km/h)

Normally lanes in A's are wider than SS ones, so emergency lanes
And Emergency lane standard on Autostrada is bigger, for istance, than Germany emergency lane standard, has I previously said in the thread, and in any case a truck can stay on it completely 

Here a pic of a messy crash which can show it well


----------



## x-type

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Sometimes same questions come out
> 
> That's not a rule... there are SS with emergency lane and A's without it.
> 
> The rule says:
> -Autostrada has green signage and max speed on it is 130 km/h
> -Superstrada has blue signage and max speed is 110 km/h (or less frequently 90 km/h)
> 
> Normally lanes in A's are wider than SS ones, so emergency lanes
> And Emergency lane standard on Autostrada is bigger, for istance, than Germany emergency lane standard, has I previously said in the thread, and in any case a truck can stay on it completely


khm, i'm not sure about widness of SOS lane, maybe it worths for new motorways. at A14 for instance it is incredibly narrow mostly.

btw, i know for some sections of A roads without SOS lanes, but which SS roads have SOS lanes?


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> I don't call the Italian emergency lane a real emergency lane. A truck doesn't even fit on it and I don't want to change a tire on it. But they have many SOS lots to make up for it.


Funny, it's 3 metres wide. German and Austrian emergency lanes are 2,5 m wide. Never heard your complain about that.


----------



## keber

x-type said:


> btw, i know for some sections of A roads without SOS lanes, but which SS roads have SOS lanes?


As I've saw, all newer ones.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I heavily support an emergency lane of at least 3.5 m wide. It's possible to have a 4-0 system with road works (2x2 on one carriageway with narrowed lanes). I also don't like guardrails immediatly next to the em lane if it's not completely necessary.


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## GENIUS LOCI

x-type said:


> khm, i'm not sure about widness of SOS lane, maybe it worths for new motorways. at A14 for instance it is incredibly narrow mostly.


I don't have this impression



















Anyway I don't know A14 very well... surely in its first stretch near Bologna where it has 3 lanes it has a large emergency lane, but it could be in iother branches with2 lanes there are narrow ones or not at all... infact I said about 'standard' and add there are even highway (old ones) without emergency lane, as A10 for most part of its run.
Back to A14... I think anyway with enlargement to 3 lanes for the whole run the highway will have a total standard emergency lane




> btw, i know for some sections of A roads without SOS lanes, but which SS roads have SOS lanes?


Many, and mostly new ones

E.I this is new Valassina in Milan suburbs (3 lanes + emergency and even postlamps for the whole run)


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## Timon91

I'd call that A14 SOS lanes quite narrow, actually. Even the normal lanes seem to be quite narrow.


----------



## x-type

GENIUS LOCI said:


> I don't have this impression
> 
> http://www.60019.it/articoli/image/2008/04-06/20080416-complanare-1-g.jpg
> 
> http://www.60019.it/articoli/image/2008/04-06/20080416-complanare-2-g.jpg
> 
> Anyway I don't know A14 very well... surely in its first stretch near Bologna where it has 3 lanes it has a large emergency lane, but it could be in iother branches with2 lanes there are narrow ones or not at all... infact I said about 'standard' and add there are even highway (old ones) without emergency lane, as A10 for most part of its run.
> Back to A14... I think anyway with enlargement to 3 lanes for the whole run the highway will have a total standard emergency lane


look at A14 Pescara - Ancona, it is quite narrow.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a203/ixic/P8170358.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a203/ixic/IMGP3907-1.jpg

new sections have wider SOS lane. and the great thing are SOS niches.


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## x-type

keber said:


> Who/Which company is the owner/maintainer of GRA ring?


ANAS s.p.a.


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## keber

Yes, now can see that on above picture with Ferrari.:lol:

I also like, that in every new tunnel in Italy there is full length emergency lane (at least in all those, I saw them).


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## x-type

in general, italian tunnels are wider that normal. also at SS or SP roads tunnels are wider that in rest of Europe (you allways have about 50-80 cm at each side of space, while in most countries wall is near edge of the road.


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## Tom 958

Definitely the funkiest overhead sign supports ever.


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## Timon91

At least it looks modern :lol:


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## DinoBond007

x-type said:


> in general, italian tunnels are wider that normal. also at SS or SP roads tunnels are wider that in rest of Europe (you allways have about 50-80 cm at each side of space, while in most countries wall is near edge of the road.


And don't have speed limit :banana2:


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## WalkTheWorld

Trojanski Krofi anyone?


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## Verso

WalkTheWorld said:


> Trojanski Krofi anyone?


Err, what the hell about them?


----------



## msz2

Why the bridge in post number 668, photos 3 and 4 has no anti corrosion protection?


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## keber

Maybe because it was still in construction, when pictures were taken?


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## WalkTheWorld

Verso said:


> Err, what the hell about them?


Nuffin' just catering for guests...


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## Verso

^ Great, we can eat them in The roadside rest area. :eat:


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## NorthWesternGuy

PLH said:


> Mmmmm  Nice


Beautiful...bridge:lol:


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## GENIUS LOCI

Padova tangenziale new viaduct



Sonic from Padova said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/alessandro9534/2611311084/sizes/l/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/alessandro9534/2611311478/sizes/l/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/alessandro9534/2610477033/sizes/l/





Gioven said:


> Questa sera, sapendo che sarei andato a Torre, mi sono portato dietro macchina fotografica e cavalletto. Al ritorno ho piazzato la macchina a Ponte di Brenta davanti all'ex-discoteca, e mi sono avventurato sulla pista ciclabile e poi fin dentro al cantiere per togliermi uno sfizio che avevo da tempo: fotografare il viadotto tutto illuminato. E' veramente la nuova porta di accesso a Padova. Spero che le foto vi piacciano
> 
> Nella prima foto, la striscia sottile dI uno degli archi illuminati a destra dell'IKEA:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nella foto successiva, un arco inquadra la Torre NET (peccato che la foto sia leggermente sfocata):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ed ora, un po' di foto varie; spero di essere riuscito a rendere l'idea di quanto imponenti siano gli archi e dell'effetto dinamico che essi creano passandoci vicino:





Gioven said:


> Foto scattate ieri pomeriggio dopo esssere uscito dal casello di Padova est; la tangenziale era semideserta e quindi ne ho approfittato per accostarmi...





Sonic from Padova said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ciufffo/


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## Timon91

Beautiful, it looks very futuristic


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## GENIUS LOCI

Some infos on Autostrade projects in Emilia-Romagna region

-4th lane A1 Bologna-Modena (completed)
-3rd dinamyc lane A14 Bologna Borgo Panigale-Bologna San Lazzaro(completed)
-variante di valico A1 Casalecchio-Sasso Marconi (u/c)
-3rd lane A14 Rimini Nord-Cattolica (approuved)
-4th lane A14 Bologna-dir.Ravenna (project)
-4th lane A1 Modena-Piacenza sud (project)
-3rd lane A13 Bologna-Padova (project)




> CANTIERI APERTI: INTERVENTI DI AMPLIAMENTO E POTENZIAMENTO DELLE AUTOSTRADE IN EMILIA ROMAGNA
> 
> · In Emilia Romagna, 6,1 miliardi di euro di investimenti, di cui 2,6 miliardi previsti dalla nuova Convenzione Unica, per un totale di 294 km di rete e 3 nuovi caselli
> · Notevolmente ridotti i tassi di incidentalità e mortalità per effetto dell’ampliamento della sede autostradale
> 
> · Abbattuto l’inquinamento atmosferico e acustico
> 
> Bologna, 21 ottobre 2008 - “I lavori in Emilia Romagna procedono veloci e secondo i programmi. Nella regione, il 74% degli interventi è stato affidato alle imprese mentre quasi il 51% dei km di ampliamento è stato aperto al traffico. In particolare, si tratta dei lotti 1-2-3-4 della Variante di Valico da Sasso Marconi a la Quercia, della 4^ corsia sull’A1 da Bologna a Modena e della terza corsia dinamica nel tratto bolognese dell’A14”.
> E’ quanto affermato oggi nel corso della conferenza stampa a Bologna da Gennarino Tozzi, Direttore Operativo Sviluppo Rete di Autostrade per l’Italia, alla presenza di Alfredo Peri, assessore Mobilità e Trasporti della Regione Emilia Romagna, di Giacomo Venturi, Vice presidente della Provincia di Bologna e di Mauro Coletta, Direttore dell’Ispettorato Vigilanza per le Concessioni Autostradali dell’Anas.
> “Questi risultati positivi – ha spiegato Tozzi – sono il frutto di una serie di fattori, tra i quali la efficace collaborazione con l’Anas e le istituzioni locali nonchè la possibilità di affidamento “in house” dei lavori, tramite la controllata Pavimental, di buona parte delle opere. Ora la sfida per i prossimi anni, oltre al completamento della Variante di Valico, è quella di realizzare i nuovi interventi previsti dalla Convenzione Unica per cui occorrerà migliorare sempre di più i processi autorizzativi. Anche perché – ha aggiunto Tozzi – è dimostrato che potenziare le autostrade equivale a maggiore sicurezza e minor impatto ambientale".
> Tozzi ha inoltre ricordato come “la sicurezza sul lavoro e sul traffico rappresenti per Autostrade per l’Italia un forte impegno sociale”. L’azienda, infatti, stanzia in media il 9% dell’importo dei lavori come oneri per la sicurezza non soggetti a ribasso. Una quota che negli anni è destinata ad aumentare. Inoltre, Autostrade per l’Italia ha da poco sottoscritto in Emilia Romagna un Protocollo d’intesa con istituzioni, imprese e sindacati proprio in tema di sicurezza nei cantieri della Variante di Valico.
> Riguardo la sicurezza stradale, dal 1999 ad oggi è stato ridotto del 70% il tasso di mortalità sulla rete di Autostrade per l’Italia raggiungendo e superando con due anni di anticipo l’obiettivo posto dall’Unione Europea. Questa riduzione è un risultato conseguito con continui interventi migliorativi dell’infrastruttura (potenziamento autostradale) e con iniziative volte a modificare il comportamento degli automobilisti.
> Decisamente buoni anche i risultati sul fronte ambientale. E’ dimostrato che, in seguito agli ampliamenti, la fluidità del traffico aumenta e conseguentemente si riducono tutte le componenti inquinanti. Per i livelli acusitici, con l’installazione delle barriere antirumore si ottengono notevoli diminuzioni su tutti i “ricettori sensibili”.
> La rete autostradale della Regione e il nodo bolognese costituiscono l’asse portante della mobilità Nord-Sud del Paese. Autostrade per l’Italia ha raggiunto in Emilia Romagna risultati importanti a fronte di investimenti per 6,1 miliardi di euro, di cui 2,6 miliardi inseriti nella Convenzione Unica siglata con ANAS nell'ottobre 2007 e resa efficace per legge a giugno 2008.
> Un programma imponente che ha portato al completamento dello svincolo di Bologna Fiera, la Diramazione per Ravenna sulla A14, la realizzazione della 4^ corsia tra Modena e Bologna sulla A1 e l’ampliamento alla 3^ corsia sul tratto Sasso Marconi-La Quercia della A1, la realizzazione della 3^ Corsia dinamica nel tratto bolognese della A14, la realizzazione del nuovo svincolo di Terre di Canossa Campegine, tra Parma e Reggio Emilia.
> Per alcune di queste opere i lavori sono stati conclusi con ampio anticipo rispetto al programma, grazie alla formula “affidamento a controllata” e alla sinergia con il territorio, che hanno permesso di raggiungere un risultato eccezionale nel panorama italiano, anticipando l’apertura al traffico in un contesto particolarmente complesso.
> Per migliorare la viabilità autostradale della Regione e renderla sempre più sicura, è stato steso asfalto drenante su circa il 99,9% delle autostrade; riqualificate le barriere spartitraffico sul 100% della rete, e istallate barriere antirumore su circa 17km. Inoltre in programma il potenziamento delle autostrade della Regione prevede 3 nuovi caselli, mentre 15 aree di servizio sono già state ristrutturate e per altre 9 sono già avviati i lavori.
> I PRINCIPALI INTERVENTI PROGRAMMATI IN EMILIA ROMAGNA
> 
> A1 Milano-Napoli: Variante di Valico
> 
> L’opera più rilevante nella Regione è la Variante di Valico. Un investimento complessivo di circa 2 miliardi 397 milioni euro per il potenziamento della Autosole nel tratto appenninico tra Sasso Marconi e Poggiolino.
> In questo enorme cantiere la Galleria di Base (lotti 9-10-11) costituisce l’opera simbolo: un tunnel a carreggiate separate, lungo 8,6 km per 160 mq di sezione, che unirà Emilia Romagna e Toscana, congiungendo la futura area di servizio di Badia Nuova a Nord con il nuovo svincolo di Poggiolino a Sud. Per la sua costruzione è previsto un investimento di 751,7 milioni di euro, lungo una tratta di 11,2 km. I lavori, iniziati nel febbraio 2004, hanno uno stato di avanzamento di oltre il 50% con previsione di completamento a novembre 2010.
> I lavori proseguono inoltre nei lotti 5A, 5B, 6-7 (17,5 km per 884,6 €/mln) tra La Quercia e Badia Nuova, per il raddoppio del tracciato in una nuova sede a due carreggiate separate a due corsie con emergenza. In questi cantieri si stanno realizzando alcune importanti opere d’arte, citiamo la galleria Grizzana, la galleria Val di Sembro, il viadotto Pian di Setta, il viadotto Lagaro.
> 
> A1 Milano-Napoli: Casalecchio-Sasso Marconi
> 
> Le attività in corso nella A1 tra Casalecchio e Sasso Marconi (4,1 km per 58,3 €/mln) anche se si sono registrate iniziali difficoltà nell’avvio
> 
> A14 Rimini Nord-Cattolica
> 
> Per quanto riguarda gli altri interventi programmati si evidenzia, per importanza, il 1 lotto della A14 tra Rimini Nord e Cattolica (29 km per 446,5 €/mln di investimento) per il quale ASPI attiverà la progettazione non appena sarà chiusa la Conferenza di Servizi.
> Nella stessa tratta emiliana della A14 è previsto lo Svincolo di Rubicone (20,3 €/mln) per il quale al momento è in approvazione all’ANAS il Progetto Definitivo.
> 
> Aree di servizio
> 
> Per quanto riguarda il piano di interventi di ASPI relativamente alle Aree di Servizio, si evidenziano 15 aree già ristrutturate (Arda Ovest, Bevano Est, Cantagallo Ovest, aree di servizio Castel Bentivoglio Est, Castel Bentivoglio Ovest, La Pioppa Est, La Pioppa Ovest, Po Est, Roncobilaccio Ovest, Rubicone Ovest, S.Eufemia Est, S.Eufemia Ovest, S.Martino Est, S.Martino Ovest, Secchia Ovest), 9 aree con interventi già avviati (Arda Est, Bevano Ovest, Montefeltro Est, Po Ovest, Roncobilaccio Est, Rubicone Est, Santerno Ovest, Secchia Est, Sillaro Ovest ) e 4 aree con lavori da avviare (Cantagallo Est, Montefeltro Ovest, Santerno Est, Sillaro Est
> 
> OPERE AGGIUNTE IN CONVENZIONE UNICA
> 
> 
> A1 tra Modena Nord-Piacenza Sud: ampliamento alla 4° corsia
> 
> L’intervento interessa 99,5 km per un valore stimato di 1.350 €/mln. Verranno anche ampliati alcuni svincoli decisi con il territorio in base alle esigenze del traffico
> 
> A13 tra Ferrara-Bologna: ampliamento alla 3° corsia
> 
> L’intevento riguarda 33,7 km per un valore stimato di 500 €/mln. Anche in questo caso l’ampliamento di alcuni svincoli sarà deciso insieme al territorio.
> 
> A14 tra Diramazione Ravenna e Bologna San Lazzaro: ampliamento alla 4° corsia
> 
> L’intervento interessa 34,5 km per un valore stimato di 600 €/mln.
> 
> Nodo stradale di Casalecchio
> 
> Finalità dell’intervento sono: la connessione della ss 64 “Porrettana”, già completata fino al confine con Sasso Marconi, al sistema viario metropolitano di Bologna ed il contestuale interramento della linea RFI Bologna - Pistoia, con la realizzazione di una stazione sotterranea ed il ripristino della continuità urbana del centro di Casalecchio di Reno.
> L’intervento, della lunghezza di circa 4.0 km ha un valore stimato di circa 150 €/mln, comprensivo delle opere stradali e ferroviarie.


----------



## Verso

Timon91 said:


> Beautiful, it looks very futuristic


Agreed, like out of space, very good.



GENIUS LOCI said:


> -4th lane A1 Bologna-Modena (completed)


I didn't know that. Is that between junction A1×A14 (the one closer to Modena) and interchange Modena sud (south)? That's some 17 km.


----------



## x-type

i didn't know about MO - BO neither. one part is allready visible at google earth.

btw, A14 is being widened not only to Cattolica (you wrote it probably because you told about projects in ER region) but up to Pedaso. does somebody know when should 3+3 come to Pedaso, or at least to Ancona?


----------



## Verso

Actually it goes past Modena too. If you add tangenziale, that's 12 lanes bypassing Modena. :nuts:


----------



## keber

First they need to improve traffic flow around Bologna, which causes numerous delays. Then add additional lanes on incoming motorways.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^


Paxromana said:


> ...ancora non girano foto sul web...non è possibile!!!! Comunque:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SABATO 15 E DOMENICA 16 NOVEMBRE DUE GIORNI DI GRANDE FESTA POPOLARE IN GALLERIA PER LA GRANDE VIABILITA’ TRIESTINA
> 
> *L’INAUGURAZIONE E L’APERTURA UFFICIALE MERCOLEDI’ 19 NOVEMBRE.*
> L’ASSESSORE BANDELLI PRESENTATA IL PROGRAMMA DEI FESTEGGIAMENTI APERTI ALL’INTERA COMUNITA’
> 
> Due giorni di grande festa popolare, sabato 15 e domenica 16 novembre, segneranno l’inaugurazione dell’ultimo tratto della Grande Viabilità Triestina, la cui cerimonia ufficiale di apertura si terrà mercoledì 19 novembre, alle ore 11.30, mentre intorno alle 14.00 dello stesso giorno sarà attiva e fruibile per tutti la nuova viabilità. Questo in sintesi il calendario degli appuntamenti programmati dal Comune di Trieste per l’avvio e l’entrata in funzione dell’ultimo tratto della Grande Viabilità, presentato oggi (venerdì 7 novembre) nel corso di una conferenza stampa svoltasi nel salotto azzurro del palazzo municipale, alla quale sono intervenuti tra gli altri l’assessore ai Lavori Pubblici e Coordinamento Eventi Franco Bandelli, gli ingegneri comunali Gianpiero Tevini e Enrico Cortese e il direttore della filiale di Trieste delle Poste Italiane Giuseppe Patti.
> “Sono passati trent’anni –ha l’assessore Franco Bandelli- dalle prime firme per la realizzazione della Grande Viabilità Triestina ed ora dopo sei anni d’intenso lavoro, portato a termine grazie alla capacità e professionalità dei nostri tecnici e alla bravura dell’impresa costruttrice, si completa un’opera indispensabile per la nostra città, ma anche per la Regione e il nostro Paese”. “L’apertura ufficiale avverrà –ha detto ancora Bandelli- mercoledì 19 novembre, alle ore 11.30, con gli interventi delle autorità, mentre poco prima, nella galleria Carso, scopriremo una targa alla memoria di Lino Ruffoni, il giovane tecnico tragicamente e sfortunatamente morto nel corso dei lavori. Quindi verso le 14.00 l’ultimo tratto della GVT sarà aperto alla circolazione viaria”.
> “L’inaugurazione di questa importante struttura viaria –ha aggiunto Bandelli- sarà segnata anche da una due giorni di festeggiamenti popolari, una grande “Festa in Galleria” che si terrà sabato 15 e domenica 16 novembre, cercando di coinvolgere con musica, appuntamenti enogastronomici e sportivi, l’intera città e tutta la nostra comunità”.
> Questo il programma dei festeggianti. Si inizia sabato 15 novembre alle ore 16.00 con Umberto Lupi e la sua musica popolare triestina. Il palco sarà posizionato all’interno della galleria con un’inusuale scenografia costituita dalla galleria stessa. Dopo Umberto Lupi sarà il turno dei Blues Mobile Band, la formazione triestina che si sta distinguendo a livello nazionale come una delle migliori “tribute band”: nel loro caso i mitici Blues Brothers.
> Accanto al concerto il pubblico avrà l’occasione di gustare le più caratteristiche specialità gastronomiche triestine e assistere alla proiezione delle immagini più suggestive della realizzazione della Grande Viabilità Triestina e dei dintorni di Trieste.
> Proseguendo il percorso a piedi all’interno della galleria ci sarà la possibilità di assaggiare gratuitamente Jota, gnocchi di susini o gulasch, altre proiezioni d’immagini fino al ‘giro di boa’, circa alla metà della galleria, dove il vin brulé riscalderà tutti i presenti. A questo punto ci sarà un servizio di bus navetta per riaccompagnare i visitatori alle loro automobili oppure per chi vorrà soffermarsi ancora potrà ritornare a piedi al punto di partenza.
> Domenica 16 novembre la festa riprenderà con un evento dedicato agli sportivi. Alle ore 11.00 è prevista la partenza dei podisti e dei ciclisti che daranno vita ad una esclusiva UNDERGROUNDBIKERUN , ovvero una particolare iniziativa per vivere in maniera esclusiva la nuova Grande Viabilità Triestina. I podisti percorreranno l’intera galleria (andata e ritorno per un totale di circa 6 km, i ciclisti proseguiranno per Padriciano, l ’Area di Ricerca, Basovizza, Gropada per ritornare quindi dove sono partiti. La partecipazione è libera e gratuita e le iscrizioni si faranno sul posto dalle ore 10.00. A tutti i partecipanti sarà consegnato un omaggio a ricordo dell’evento e un ristoro.
> A seguire la musica protagonista della festa con Umberto Lupi, Stefano Franco, Boogie Nites, Sunrise Band e i Bandomat per un non stop di note fino alle 22.00, ovviamente accompagnate dai piatti tipici e dal vin brulé come sabato.
> Anche Poste Italiane partecipa alla celebrazione con uno speciale annullo filatelico. Il pubblico presente potrà ritirare una cartolina (5000 le copie disponibili gratuitamente fino ad esaurimento) realizzata appositamente dal Comune e timbrarla contestualmente. La cartolina riproduce i due momenti più significativi della realizzazione dell’opera: la posa della prima dima (2002) di scavo e la galleria ultimata (2008).
> Da segnalare infine che per favorire la partecipazione ai due giorni di “Festa in Galleria” sarà previsto un apposito parcheggio da una migliaio di posti macchina.
> 
> Fonte: Comune di Trieste.


----------



## keber

What did they do with great cavern (grotta), discovered when digging the tunnel? Will be accessible to ordinary people? It has the tallest stalagmite in Italy.
I would search myself, but my Italian is still very limited.


----------



## Verso

So the SS202 with its 70-km/h speed limit will finally become superstrada instead of autostrada.


----------



## Dino S

Finally, no more need for using A3 over Sežana From Koper to Palmanova!


----------



## Perennial Quest

x-type said:


> i didn't know about MO - BO neither. one part is allready visible at google earth.
> 
> btw, A14 is being widened not only to Cattolica (you wrote it probably because you told about projects in ER region) but up to Pedaso. does somebody know when should 3+3 come to Pedaso, or at least to Ancona?


Unfortunately I don't have informations about the timing ofthis project.
BTW here you can see a map:


----------



## x-type

Perennial Quest said:


> BTW here you can see a map:


i know, been there, seen it  link that's how i actually found out about widenning. and areound Ancona there allready are works that look like widening.


----------



## Perennial Quest

x-type said:


> i know, been there, seen it  link that's how i actually found out about widenning. and areound Ancona there allready are works that look like widening.


Ok. If I'll find anything interesting about the timing, I'll post it here. kay:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Perennial Quest said:


> Unfortunately I don't have informations about the timing ofthis project.
> BTW here you can see a map:


170 kilometers! Bud needed I guess, the A14 is about the largest bottleneck in Italian infrastructure during the summer.


----------



## keber

Don't know, if in summer it is worse on old A3 than on A14. A14 is congested all time in the year.


----------



## Perennial Quest

keber said:


> Don't know, if in summer it is worse on old A3 than on A14. A14 is congested all time in the year.


Hehe, I wouldn't know wich one is more congested in summer. Many perople here don't even consider the A3 as a highway... hno:

Btw, forumer matteosc posted this about the A14 widening works:



matteosc said:


> Stato dell'opera Apertura al traffico prevista
> 
> Rimini Nord - Cattolica Lotto 1A (1,2 Km)
> In approvazione Progetto Definitivo 2013
> 
> Rimini Nord - Cattolica Lotto 1B (27,8 Km)
> In corso Conferenza dei Servizi solo per le opere fuori asse
> 
> Cattolica - Fano (28,3 Km)
> In corso affidamento lavori 2014
> 
> Fano - Senigallia (21,0 Km)
> In corso Progetto Esecutivo 2013
> 
> Senigallia - Ancona Nord (18,9 Km)
> In approvazione Progetto Esecutivo 2013
> 
> Ancona Nord - Ancona Sud (17,2 Km)
> In corso affidamento lavori 2013
> 
> Ancona Sud - P.to S.Elpidio 1a fase (37,0 Km)
> Lavori in corso 2009
> 
> Ancona Sud - P.to S.Elpidio 2a fase (3,3 Km)
> In corso affidamento lavori 2012
> 
> Lo stato dell opera non è completamente aggiornata


----------



## keber

Perennial Quest said:


> Hehe, I wouldn't know wich one is more congested in summer. Many perople here don't even consider the A3 as a highway... hno:


For me it still is, although not whole with modern standards, but it is improving. All new tunnels in Italy (including A3) have whole length emergency lane, which is mostly still SF on new motorways across Europe.


----------



## Verso

The Slovenian media are reporting that the mayor of Trieste decided that the new section by Trieste will have bilingual signs. I wonder what exactly that means. Slovenian expressions for Slovenian-speaking villages are logical anyway, so I wonder, if we'll see "Trst" in Italy for the first time.  And maybe even "Benetke".


----------



## RipleyLV

Found some pics. Taken by me this summer.

A4 near Padova.









Notice, the jam on the left started before Padova Ovest exit and ended after the A13 intersection, that makes it 11 km long.









A4 near Bergamo.









A4 crossing with A26.


----------



## Verso

^^ Great pictures, Ripley! I already wanted to ask this: is that really speed control every time, or they are just pranks? I'm asking, cause there's a freakin' lot of them on the A4, every few kms. Also, how fast can you drive? I know the speed limit is 130 km/h, but what speed is still tolerated?


----------



## Timon91

Were you in a truck or a bus, Ripley? Very nice pics :cheers:


----------



## RipleyLV

Verso said:


> I already wanted to ask this: is that really speed control every time, or they are just pranks? I'm asking, cause there's a freakin' lot of them on the A4, every few kms.


^One guy explanation.


WalkTheWorld said:


> it literally means "average speed is monitored when the tutor system is on" (24/7 nowadays...it means that every panel, every bridge every overhead thing may have one camera per lane on that stratch of highway and that they will calculate your average speed to decide whether you're a good boy or what. It's not bad because you can briefly go past the limit to overtake a row of trucks and it's way better than in the old times when everybody ran like hell just to break all of a sudden where everybody knew speedtraps were placed. Really, tutor makes driving more relaxing.





Timon91 said:


> Were you in a truck or a bus, Ripley? Very nice pics :cheers:


In a truck.


----------



## Verso

Very interesting!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So, generally section control like they have in the Netherlands.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

> it literally means "average speed is monitored when the tutor system is on" (24/7 nowadays...it means that every panel, every bridge every overhead thing may have one camera per lane on that stratch of highway and that they will calculate your average speed to decide whether you're a good boy or what. It's not bad because you can briefly go past the limit to overtake a row of trucks and it's way better than in the old times when everybody ran like hell just to break all of a sudden where everybody knew speedtraps were placed. Really, tutor makes driving more relaxing.


Autostrade per l'Italia spa wants to extend the system on the hole lenght of highway web and also Anas wants the 'tutor' on many roads


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Big Brother is coming to Italia!


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> ^^ Great pictures, Ripley! I already wanted to ask this: is that really speed control every time, or they are just pranks? I'm asking, cause there's a freakin' lot of them on the A4, every few kms. Also, how fast can you drive? I know the speed limit is 130 km/h, but what speed is still tolerated?


not only at A4. you remember my summer route and i saw them a lot at those motorways, which actually are not that important (A24 for instance). and i think that maybe they are not at each portal, but it's better not to be surpriced 



RipleyLV said:


> In a truck.


cool! since i work in transportation company, i have an opportunity to travel across Europe in a truck for free  but i must have some free days


----------



## Timon91

As an European truck driver you get the oppurtunity to see something, yes


----------



## LtBk

Is there a tolerance limit like 20km over the speed limit before they fine you?


----------



## x-type

Timon91 said:


> As an European truck driver you get the oppurtunity to see something, yes


i'm not a driver, but we have a lots of drivers who could take me on a ride


----------



## Timon91

Connections do a lot as well


----------



## x-type

well, it's not about connections, i'm simply in contact each day with drivers andwe work in the same company. actually, they can take anobody who they trust to


----------



## Perennial Quest

LtBk said:


> Is there a tolerance limit like 20km over the speed limit before they fine you?


There is 5% tolerance applied on the speed registered.


----------



## Des

The best thing you can do in Italy when you encounter a long traffic jam is exit the highway and drive through the beautiful countryside


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Perennial Quest said:


> There is 5% tolerance applied on the speed registered.


I knew tollerance was 10 km/h


----------



## Verso

Des said:


> The best thing you can do in Italy when you encounter a long traffic jam is exit the highway and drive through the beautiful countryside





x-type said:


>





x-type said:


>


----------



## keber

Of course, those are by far not extreme cases. :hilarious


----------



## Rijeka

^^ Great pics, Verso! :lol:


----------



## Perennial Quest

GENIUS LOCI said:


> I knew tollerance was 10 km/h


_Per l'art. 1, d.m. 29 ottobre 1997, nell'impiego di apparecchi automatici per gli accertamenti della velocità deve essere applicata una riduzione pari al 5%, con un minimo di 5 km/h. Nella riduzione è compresa anche la tolleranza strumentale._

Fonte.


@ Verso: fortunately it's not always like that, but I have to confess that sometimes there are problems with "over information". :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So 5% with a minimum of 5 km/h. That's more than the Netherlands (3km minimum). 70% of the Dutch speed fines are for less than 10 km/h too fast.


----------



## x-type

what is with 150 km/h speed limit? i didn't see a single sign of it (but in Italy they don't put speed limit signs after exits, so i actually didn't see 130 neither). is that limit at all 3+3 motorways? can it be seen somewhere?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Seems like some kind of hoax to me. I've never seen any proof of the 150 limit.


----------



## Timon91

@Des: or you can just enjoy the beautiful markers.

Nice pictures, Verso


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

x-type said:


> what is with 150 km/h speed limit? i didn't see a single sign of it (but in Italy they don't put speed limit signs after exits, so i actually didn't see 130 neither). is that limit at all 3+3 motorways? can it be seen somewhere?





ChrisZwolle said:


> Seems like some kind of hoax to me. I've never seen any proof of the 150 limit.


150 km/h speed limit was a proposal before Prodi's Government: it never became law, and no-one nowadays seems to propose it again

Max speed limits remain 130 km/h


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Let's take a drive on Milan motorway web


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice  European streetview I've seen so far is of a far higher quality than American streetview. 

Somehow, Italian Autostrada's and expressways seems a bit claustrofobic to me... Lack of full-size shoulders, many guardrails close to the driving lanes etc. Or maybe I'm just too used to other European motorways. After all, I have never driven in Italy myself (but that's gonna change next year!)


----------



## Verso

^^ I've seen that forum, now I just have to check out the road myself. 

As for those substandard exits and entrance ramps, as I've said, there are a few nasty ones in the A4-A50 junction.


----------



## Nukleusri

A1 around Florence (pics from April 2008)
































one bad picture hno: interchange for Florence centre and A11 to Pisa









A11 - Montecatini Terme (not so good pics)


----------



## Federicoft

The A1 is closed right now near Florence, due to heavy snow.
Nothern and Southern Italy are cut off, as the medias like to say in such cases.


----------



## Perennial Quest

Passante di Mestre will officialy be opened February the 3rd.

Here is a photographinc comparison by Lupo2k. The pics were taken in ~ 1 month distance:


----------



## keber

Hmm, quite a lot of work remains for the next two months.


----------



## Verso

*Trieste bypass*

Today I took the opportunity to escape foggy Ljubljana and go to sunny Trieste. :cheers: My photos start at the (previous) border crossing Fernetiči/Fernetti between Slovenian A3 and Italian RA14 motorways (although the border crossing itself is not a motorway, so all kinds of vehicles may cross it, as well as pedestrians).

Still in Slovenia.









The buildings will disappear in less than a month.









Welcome to Italy.









We choose motorway.









9 km to Trieste.









A sharp turn.









Now we're going under the border crossing.


















The RA14 motorway is very short.









I always turn right here (for Venice), but this time I'll go left.









Haha, I've never driven on this ramp (but I have in the other direction).









And here the RA14 ends, and we join the RA13 motorway, which can already be considered Trieste bypass.









Hey, what? I just _left_ Slovenia. Oh right, Slovenia is all around Trieste. :lol:









SS58 della Carniola? (Carniola is a traditional and historical region of modern Slovenia)



























Rabuiese is a (former) border crossing with Slovenia south of Trieste.









Exit for Rijeka. Until last week, the motorway ended here.









What are you doing here?









And you?









This is now the new part of the bypass, which mostly consists of a 3-km-long tunnel Carso (Karst) through the so called Impossible Cave. 


















The beginning looks like a cut-and-cover, going through nothing particular.









My best tunnel picture by far!  :lol: Looks fancy. :cheers:









Sorry for crappy photo, I just wanted to show you that (real) motorway (autostrada) ends here, and the SS202 expressway (superstrada) begins. It was previously considered motorway, even though the speed limit is 70 km/h. 









Shiny crash barriers! :O









Another tunnel, also new.


















You can see by the pavement where the old section begins.









The expressway has many curves. The speed limit here is still 80 km/h.









The tree should go somewhere else. 









Corridor.









There are great views from the expressway on Trieste and the Adriatic Sea.









Luckily it has emergency stops.


















Exit for the new expressway for Koper/Capodistria (Slovenia). We continue for the port and the city-center.









Commieblocks! And I thought the surrounding Yugoslavia was communist. 









The old road for Koper/Capodistria.


















70-km/h speed limit starts here, and you can't drive much faster anyway. It's a question, if it can still be considered an expressway. Well, you're faster here than through the city, that's for sure. No matter what, it's a magnificent elevated road. :cheers:









uke:









SS 202 ex G. V. T. (Grande Viabilità Triestina).




































Between these two pictures I wanted to take a picture of by far the ugliest building around, but I almost crashed.  Seriously, I literally had to completely stop on the expressway (0 km/h), because someone wanted to enter the expressway from a short entrance ramp, there was traffic on the overtaking lane and behind me and I was taking photos... I'm glad to be at home anyway. 










There's a short tunnel here, and a scooter, of course.  (taken in the other direction)









A shopping mall.









Still autostrada, eh? 









Left for the 7th pier of the port, right for the downtown.









The end of the 'motorway', welcome to Trieste. :cheers:









I hope it wasn't too many pictures.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice little roadtrip you just did 

I have to say Slovenian signage is way better than the Italian one. I can't get used to it. But I need to drive it myself


----------



## Verso

...and you'll get lost.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

TomTom will guide me


----------



## Timon91

Great report Verso! Very interesting to see so many pics of that area, that is completely surrounded by Slovenia :lol:

How do you take your pics btw?


----------



## Verso

Thanks.  What do you mean, how do I take my pics?

PS: great that we're on the next page, so I can put a few more thousand pics.


----------



## Timon91

How do you hold your camera? I mean, Chris straps it to his dashboard, for example, I just hold it in my hand because I don't have to drive


----------



## Verso

This is taking photos, not shooting videos, Chris can't strap it to his dashboard, we just hold them in our hands.


----------



## Verso

*Expressway Trieste - Koper/Capodistria (Slovenia)*

This new expressway, connecting Trieste to the Slovenian town of Koper/Capodistria, has no number whatsoever :nuts: (except E751). And the speed limit seemed to be 50 km/h. :lol:

Still on the SS202, going back up. :nuts:









Now we'll turn right.









It's *Š*kofije, not Skofije, and who needs name of the (former!) border crossing on (new!) signs anyway?









A 1.5-km Monte d'Oro tunnel was required here too.









The only exit on the expressway.



























(Former) border crossing Rabuiese/Škofije. There was a car with American license plates behind me.









Slovenian vignettes on sale.  They translated "hitre ceste" into "highways" instead of "expressways".









This border crossing is officially also not expressway, so you can cross it without a vignette.









Welcome to the Slovenian H5 expressway.









Ah, this was more handy. :cheers:


----------



## Federicoft

Sweet. Didn't know the outskirts of Trieste look so run down.



Verso said:


> This is taking photos, not shooting videos, Chris can't strap it to his dashboard, we just hold them in our hands.


So were you driving and taking pics at the same moment?


----------



## Verso

We always do it like that, can you imagine driving and taking pics at the same time on this narrow Trieste bypass?


----------



## Verso

*RA17 Villesse (A4) - Gorizia - Slovenia*

This "*r*accordo *a*utostradale" (motorway connection) is not a motorway at all.  Neither expressway. It's a 4-lane road with interchanges though. It shall be upgraded to a motorway at the end of 2012.

I'll borrow this picture, cause mine is crappy. 








http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?3,107518

We're leaving the A4 motorway.









The A4 cost me 1 euro.



























:drool:









When the road was worse, the speed limit was 90 km/h. 













































Exit for Gorizia, I'm going home.


















(Former) border crossing Sant'Andrea/Vrtojba. Viva Schengen!









Not this shit again.  But you can cross this border crossing without a vignette too (but the H4 motorway/expressway is ahead).









I hope you liked it. :wave:


----------



## Timon91

I did  Nice report.

And about holding your camera: Chris somewhere said he uses velcro, but that's probably just for video's, right?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Yes


----------



## Rijeka

Yes, Verso, very nice report. Thanks!


----------



## Verso

I don't like all caps either. It's bizarre to see small villages standing out so much. OTOH it might be better for big cities, so you notice them more quickly.


----------



## Verso

I just found this interesting pic of Trieste bypass. Now I also wonder why they didn't build the green, or at least the red variant. It would spare you a few minutes of driving over those curves to the west.


----------



## Verso

Oh, it would probably be too steep.


----------



## keber

It would be around 7 %. That's too much for a motorway, especially because it would be mostly in the tunnel.


----------



## Verso

SS202 is a motorway?


----------



## keber

Or expressway, doesn't matter. Too steep, :yes:


----------



## Timon91

Scooters wouldn't handly it probably


----------



## Nephasto

keber said:


> It would be around 7 %. That's too much for a motorway, especially because it would be mostly in the tunnel.


Yeah, 7% ina tunnel would be simply unaceptable.

Usually the max is 6% in motorways but much less in tunnels (3% or something like that).


----------



## pijanec

@Verso: through that new tunnel on trieste bypass speed limit is 50 km/h?


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> I just found this interesting pic of Trieste bypass. Now I also wonder why they didn't build the green, or at least the red variant. It would spare you a few minutes of driving over those curves to the west.


Maybe they wanted to make an exit in that borough, while the two variants run through nothing
And also maybe the bypass slope should have been too much


----------



## H123Laci

Verso said:


> I just found this interesting pic of Trieste bypass. Now I also wonder why they didn't build the green, or at least the red variant. It would spare you a few minutes of driving over those curves to the west.


maybe they want to bypass that serpentine from here...

(or where does this tunnel go?)


----------



## Verso

^^ Sorry, I don't know what you mean, could you be more clear? (I'm also a bit tired :lol



pijanec said:


> @Verso: through that new tunnel on trieste bypass speed limit is 50 km/h?


No, it's 80 km/h, through all three new tunnels. But there were two 50-km/h signs on the new expressway for Koper/Capodistria, too bad I didn't make a photo of it, but it was totally unexpected. :lol:



GENIUS LOCI said:


> Maybe they wanted to make an exit in that borough, while the two variants run through nothing


Still, that doesn't mean that transit should suffer b/c of that, and they wouldn't demolish the existing part of the SS202, so they would still have an expressway, but it doesn't matter, b/c it would be too steep anyway. On my way back up there was a (Turkish) truck stuck on the expressway, b/c its engine broke down (quite a long and steep expressway), and it didn't have the luck to make it to an SOS stop, and there's no hard shoulder either. I hope no one ran into it.


----------



## H123Laci

Verso said:


> ^^ Sorry, I don't know what you mean, could you be more clear?


check THIS link.

there is a tunnel u/c... where does this go? 

maybe this is a bypass of that serpentine section, but a little bit larger what you suggested...
(the other end of this bypass would be at that 90°turn of SS202 at Bagnoli Superiore)


EDIT:

nope.
Ive found the other end of that tunnel...

this tunnel bypasses the valley section of SS202...


----------



## Verso

This is how it's now.


----------



## H123Laci

Verso said:


> This is how it's now.


bingo.

(but what was the problem with that section what this tunnel bypasses?
why didnt they make a longer tunnel to bypass that winding section on the hillside?)


----------



## Verso

It would be too steep, that's what we're talking about all the time. :lol: (ok, I asked it, but I didn't think of it immediately)


----------



## H123Laci

I thought a longer tunnel (than yours) wouldnt be too steep, but Ive checked it and I was wrong...

(it would be 5km long for about 280m elevation difference, what is about 5,6% grade...
thats really steep for a tunnel... :nuts


----------



## Verso

So it has to be a very winding and elevated expressway, that's why it's so spectacular.  Maybe you could just jump from the upper part of it and land directly in the port, but I'm not sure it would be a safe thing to do.


----------



## H123Laci

nice place for a water slide... :lol:
200-300m drop from the top... that would be a guiness record... :nuts:


----------



## E Torroja

Verso said:


> SS58 della Carniola? (Carniola is a traditional and historical region of modern Slovenia)


If you can read Italian, here you find the reason why ex SS 58 bears the name of the slovenian region of Carniola:

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strada_Statale_58_della_Carniola

However, thanks for your pictures.


----------



## Verso

Oh, it's the old road for Ljubljana (Carniola). :doh: In fact, the border crossing Fernetti is on the SS58 (now SR58), b/c the motorway doesn't start immediately on the border crossing, but some 100 m later. Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## poller1

SS della Carniola is the name of that road. That's what it says. Nothing less, nothing more.


----------



## x-type

os it's actually a sign for that part just befor border crossing?


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> os it's actually a sign for that part just befor border crossing?


I don't know what you mean, can you ask in Croatian?


----------



## x-type

jel to onaj komadić ceste od graničnog prijelaza do račvanja prema Trstu, odnosno prema obilaznici i A4?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Do you have subtitles? 

(please edit your post in English)

( I can only read about something about a border, Trieste and A4 )


----------



## x-type

well he asked me to ask him in croatian because he couldn't understand my english 

i just asked is that road della Carniola that short stretch which leads from b/c Fernetti to splitting in direction Trieste centro and to Trieste bypass and A4


----------



## Verso

Yes, but it's not a motorway (RA14, for example), but an ordinary/old road. I didn't know it was the road where the border crossing Fernetti stands (actually I knew, but I'd forgotten), so I didn't understand why such a name, if it doesn't go to ex-Carniola. But it does, as we've figured out. We can now move on with some more important stuff.


----------



## x-type

i remember few trips via Opicina when that part of TS bypass wasn't completed. we've been entering bypass at Campo Sacro. actuall, i even remember motoray ending at Razdrto and going to Italy via Senožeče and Sežana


----------



## Verso

Me too. By Campo Sacro (Sgonico) it was the beginning of the first motorway in the Balkans.  (a bit further actually)


----------



## trainspotting

What about that vinjeta/vegeta/vingette ?
So u can cross the line w/o paying at the tool barrier, or it's just a simple economic passport ?


----------



## Verso

trainspotting said:


> What about that vinjeta/*vegeta*/vingette ?


Vegeta? :lol: Vehicles of up to 3.5 t need a vignette/sticker for driving on Slovenian motorways and expressways, the same as on the Italian-Austrian border. You need it on your windshield, that's all. You don't need to stop at toll booths, if you weigh less than 3.5 t (I think we're the only country in the world that uses vignettes and still has toll booths).


----------



## trainspotting

What a cool organization. 
We use Tele Pass only in our italian motorways (electronic payment device mounted on the wind shield), without vehicle classifications; on a plain, lorries and cargo trucks have the highest fee at the toll barrier as they cross it with the Telepass Client, and after everyone passed the scanners located in the telepass server system.


----------



## Verso

trainspotting said:


> What a cool organization.


Except for the price; the cheapest one (for 6 months) costs 35 €.


----------



## Timon91

Why so much? Hang on, we might have discussed the Slovenian vignette before


----------



## keber

But a half-year vignette for 35€ on Italian motorways, that would be cool. :lol:


----------



## jpeter

Can somebody post me a picture from Speed Limits in Italy? Thanks


----------



## Federicoft




----------



## trainspotting

keber said:


> But a half-year vignette for 35€ on Italian motorways, that would be cool. :lol:


Something like that (similar) on the Strait with a toll of about 25 € until three days, else over 25€. Transportation Companies coolest prices.
The ordinary network works with ViaCard, TelePass, FastPay method and in cash without vignette's.


----------



## trainspotting

U didn't put other speed limits on: 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 50, 90, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180, 190, 200, etc...

:lol:


----------



## jpeter

i need this one of the border crossing


----------



## Timon91

There is a thread for that now 


luckily


----------



## keber

When looking at viamichelin.com, route planner sends me around Mestre/Venice on a new motorway, that is still under construction. Or is it Mestre bypass already opened?


----------



## Rijeka

I think only small part connecting A4 and A27 is open so far, the rest should be opened in February.


----------



## keber

Actually as I found out, Mestre bypass was opened on 23rd December 2008 for transit traffic only, and official opening should be in 8th February 2009.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passante_di_Mestre
(I hope I did understand correctly - will actually see next Saturday)


----------



## PLH

^^ It means that exits will be opened Feb 8th, some of them even fall 2009



> esclusione delle uscite intermedie (che saranno aperte presumibilmente entro la fine del 2009)


----------



## keber

Ok, I was wrong. Mestre bypass is still under construction, but loooks like very close to be finished (at least on west and east junctions to A4).

On the other hand, I drove over new 8-laned section Milano-Bergamo, and while impressive construction, pavement is in very bad condition, with even potholes appearing here and there.


----------



## Verso

^^ One part is extremely smooth though. But I wouldn't call the pavement "very bad"; maybe "bad", considering it's new.


----------



## keber

Half towards Venezia is in worse condition than other one. Potholes on new motorway are not acceptable anywhere, that's why "very bad".

Also, looks like that horrible accident from last August, when a truck broke through insufficient middle barrier and caused 7 death (or 8, don't remember), has some consequences. Currently, concrete new jersey barriers are being installed from Venezia-est toll station towards east.


----------



## PLH

^^ Any pics from this 'shitty' section?

And as for barrieres - I doubt any steel barrier would stop a truck. That way all of them should be replaced to concrete ones.


----------



## keber

Pics wouldn't show much. It looks very good, however drive is very bumpy.

I didn't take photos though. Been busy negotiating pretty reckless Milano drivers.


----------



## Verso

^^ Really? Usually when I drove on the northern Milano bypass (A4), I was the fastest one on the overtaking lane (the leftmost of the three) with only 120 km/h. Also, on that 8-lane section Milano-Bergamo drivers are usually incredibly slow. What I don't like by it the most is that by the almost completely straight motorway, there are some to me inexplicable little curves all the time. But it looks magnificent otherwise, with all the new overpasses.


----------



## PLH

keber said:


> Pics wouldn't show much. It looks very good, however drive is very bumpy.


Maybe it somehow still lacs the last layer of asphalt. I know it's strange but there have been examples of that on other roads.



Verso said:


> there are some to me inexplicable little curves all the time.


They are probably to make the drive concentrate more on the road, which is favorable on such long straight sections.


----------



## Verso

The 8-lane motorway is only 36-km-long.


----------



## keber

Verso said:


> ^^ Really? Usually when I drove on the northern Milano bypass (A4), I was the fastest one on the overtaking lane (the leftmost of the three) with only 120 km/h. Also, on that 8-lane section Milano-Bergamo drivers are usually incredibly slow.


Many drivers were doing pretty strange manoeuvres, mostly suddenly changing lanes. I've almost crashed into new Porshe because of that (which then suddenly zipped into distance).



PLH said:


> Maybe it somehow still lacs the last layer of asphalt. I know it's strange but there have been examples of that on other roads.


Maybe, but asphalt is the same (drainage) as on other newer sections.



> They are probably to make the drive concentrate more on the road, which is favorable on such long straight sections.


Actually this motorway is one of the oldest in Italy and with repeated widenings probably some S-curves have to be added, probably to ease construction under heavy traffic.


----------



## Mateusz

Or concrete barriers with soil


----------



## keber

Distinctive pine trees between Padova and Mestre on A4:









They didn't remove them even while constructing new overpass for Mestre bypass (not on picture).


----------



## x-type

so it's on Padova - Mestre! i saw photo of that tree few times allready, but i was never able to locate it precisly


----------



## keber

Actually there are three groups of two trees, spread over about 10 km.


----------



## Eddard Stark

I don't know what you guys are talking about...I travel every week on the Milan-Bergamo highway and the state of the street is simply magnificient, asphalt included. There are curves of any significance only while entering Milan, considering it passes through one of the most densely populated area of Europe I think it's quite an achievement. 

The sound barriers make it look something from space. 

I have never been on a better highway anywhere in the world Slovenia included, with its brand new highways


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

A pic of A20 Messina-Palermo



logan1975 said:


> Un'immagine dell'A20 all'altezza di Villafranca Tirrena(ME).


----------



## Verso

*Landslide on A3, 2 dead and 5 injured*

(AGI) - Cosenza, 26 Jan.- 2 died and 5 were injured after a landslide hit the A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria motorway at the 260km mark between Rogliano and Altilia Grimaldi in the province of Cosenza. The landslide, probably caused by the collapse of a retaining wall on the southern carriageway hit a van in which the victims were travelling. The van was later recovered after hours of work. Work is ongoing to clear mud and debris from lanes and A3 is closed from Cosenza Nord to Falerna in both directions.

















































































Photos from http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_...a3_200c86f4-eb6f-11dd-92cf-00144f02aabc.shtml.

hno:


----------



## Eddard Stark

I think it's an infortunate accident in a country with a very complex orography. 4 kids died in Barcelona because of wind, there has been a very severe meteo situation in Europe these days. I don't know what are you hno: for, honestly.


----------



## Verso

Eddard Stark said:


> I don't know what are you hno: for, honestly.


You think I should be cheering?


----------



## Federicoft

-1


----------



## keber

Finally opened!:cheers:

http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/Sole...e3-11dd-b959-e2b750068d43&DocRulesView=Libero


----------



## gf9

Venice: Mestre bypass is open


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5564/img2355qa3.jpg

I would call it Italian disease... signs with arrows that do not correspond with the number of lanes.


----------



## Eddard Stark

3 lanes 3 arrows...^^^^


----------



## Verso

^^ 4 lanes, 3 arrows actually; or 3 lanes, 2 arrows; the rightmost arrow (for Venezia) is for the fourth lane that appears shortly. But never mind, it's great news, and I like it a lot, it looks so spacious and... shiny!

I have one major complaint though: where's Belluno? I know the connection to Belluno isn't built yet, but it should temporarily be signed onto the A57, so you know where to drive to get there until the connection is built. Oh, and "A" and "SLO" wouldn't hurt. I know Trieste isn't so small, but it's not that terribly representative for Austria, as you turn for Austria already 50 km before Trieste. I'm such a signage geek.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Eddard Stark said:


> 3 lanes 3 arrows...^^^^


Nope, 3 through lanes, one exit lane.

The arrows indicate 2 through lanes and one exit lane.


----------



## Fab87

ChrisZwolle said:


> http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5564/img2355qa3.jpg
> 
> I would call it Italian disease... signs with arrows that do not correspond with the number of lanes.


NO, It's correct. If you want to turn right, you have to drive on the lane on the right....If not, well you've got 2 lanes. Of course you can stay on the right as well


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ It's not correct, because it looks like the right lane exits here which it doesn't. It can lead to unwanted behaviour of cars and trucks moving to the left unnecessary, especially those not known with the situation.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

In Italy arrows do not indicate the number of lanes... we said that many times on this thread


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

I quoted this spost 'cause IMO it makes clear how the bypass is effective


GSpace said:


> Oggi da Marcon a Mestre tante auto ma solo 2 camion  qualcosa è già cambiato...


_Translation_:
Today from Marcon to Mestre many cars but just two trucks, something changed yet...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

GENIUS LOCI said:


> In Italy arrows do not indicate the number of lanes... we said that many times on this thread


Well, what's the use of use arrows at all? In other countries, they do indicate lanes, as they should do, although I've seen some problematic signs in the U.S. too. 

According to a poll on the Dutch wegenforum, Italy is in the top three countries with the worst signage, together with Belgium and the United Kingdom.


----------



## Verso

Hey, Udine is also missing on signs.  Ok ok, Trieste is quite enough. 



ChrisZwolle said:


> According to a poll on the Dutch wegenforum, Italy is in the top three countries with the worst signage, together with Belgium and the United Kingdom.


I can't believe Poland with its border villages and PL ovals hasn't got a single vote.


----------



## Verso

I don't understand sth: if you go from Trieste to Padova, where do you pay? As far as I can see, that frontal toll station east of Venice is still there, so you still have to pay twice, but the new Mestre bypass avoids the frontal toll station west of Venice, so where do you pay?


----------



## Eddard Stark

Verso said:


> I don't understand sth: if you go from Trieste to Padova, where do you pay? As far as I can see, that frontal toll station east of Venice is still there, so you still have to pay twice, but the new Mestre bypass avoids the frontal toll station west of Venice, so where do you pay?


They integrated the system as on the other italian highways: you pay when you exit, wherever that is...if you exit in Padova you pay when you exit, the same in Milan, Rome, Bologna or wherever.

This will allow to go from Naples to Trieste or from Taranto to Trieste without ever having to stop to pay...but the same is not valid from Turin to Trieste

In fact unfortunately you cannot travel the whole lenght and width of Italy without stopping at toll boot. You have to do so in Milan for example (no pass through)...


----------



## x-type

so "old" part of A4 became A57  nice. about arrow things - you get used after some time in Italy to only 2 arrows above 3 lanes


----------



## Verso

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Other 2 more in Milan on A8 and East bypass (at Agrate... the most 'pointless' barrier ever)


Now I know what you mean, the toll station on the A52. Damn, why did they build it? It makes the Milan ring not function well, when you have to pay for the northeastern part of it.


A question: I see there are bypasses around Italian toll stations, are they for emergency vehicles? How do they prevent other vehicles from using them?


----------



## poller1

Verso said:


> Now that the traffic is lower, the old A4 motorway through Mestre (now A57) got some absurd speed limits:50/60 km/h isn't really a motorway to me.



read the sign, it's for +3,5t...


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> Why pointless?


Because it is a barrier that 'splits' the East bypass in two: North A4-South A4

Ok: they wanted to intercept people coming from A4 and entering bypass directly (or viceversa). Then they pay an 'extra' at the barrier for the bypass, many of 'em even don't know it when they get out a highway and think it is normal to find a barrier and pay (they think they pay just for motorway, while actually they even pay for the bypass they're entering)

Unfortunately the barrier is even for the ones who just 'cross' A4 running on the bypass
What happens in the real world? many people not to pay the barrier get out at Agrate and get in at Carugate (or viceversa) congesting the local roads during peaks

That's due to the 'strange' nature of this kind of pay system: it's not a closed system
It's just a point, just one barrier where you pay: if you pass that point you pay, if you don't you don't pay


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> A question: I see there are bypasses around Italian toll stations, are they for emergency vehicles?


Yep


> How do they prevent other vehicles from using them?


There are removing bars... I think they open 'em with a remote control


----------



## Timon91

poller1 said:


> read the sign, it's for +3,5t...


That's only for the fixed signs. The electronic signs show no weight limit...


----------



## Verso

GENIUS LOCI said:


> There are removing bars... I think they open 'em with a remote control


I must get one of these remote controls. 

As for the A52 toll station: if they want you to pay for the A52, I think they should put the toll station north of the A4, so they don't interrupt functioning of the ring.



poller1 said:


> read the sign, it's for +3,5t...


What about 60 km/h?


----------



## H123Laci

^^ both 50 and 60 are dangerous: drivers can easily fall asleep... :lol:


----------



## Verso

^^ And 60 km/h is just on the leftmost lane, you still have the universal speed limit of just 50 km/h on the other two lanes, regardless of your vehicle's weight, so if you don't wanna hold someone back with 60 km/h, you have to move right, where you still have 50 km/h, not 60.


----------



## Verso

Considering that the new Mestre bypass is pretty long, did they think of making it just a bit longer and make it run directly in the A13, so that the Milan-Trieste- and Bologna-Venice motorways (as well as Milan-Venice- and Bologna-Trieste motorways) wouldn't share the same path (less traffic)?


----------



## keber

Probably new Mestre-Padova part will get additional 4th lane. And I'm sure that NIMBY-s wouldn't allow parallel motorway.


----------



## Verso

keber said:


> Probably new Mestre-Padova part will get additional 4th lane.


Is there really any talk about it? How long would it be (or how long is now the A4 between A13 and A57)? Some 5-6 km?


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> Is there really any talk about it? How long would it be (or how long is now the A4 between A13 and A57)? Some 5-6 km?


according to Google Earth - 11,5 km


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> according to Google Earth - 11,5 km


Can't be that much. It's 10 km to the Dolo/Mirano exit, which is already on the A57, so it starts even earlier.


----------



## keber

It's about 10-11 km. No, never heard or read any talk about 4th lane and by my experience, it is not much needed for now. Actually I think that new Passante also doesn't need 6 lanes for quite a long time.
However even bypasses of Rome (A1) and Naples (A30) have six lanes, but in my experience they are not needed (yet). More wondering, what will happen occasionally east of Venice, when 5 lanes will merge into just 2.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> Can't be that much. It's 10 km to the Dolo/Mirano exit, which is already on the A57, so it starts even earlier.


this and this shows that knot is made between Vetrego and Cazzago and GOogle Earth says 10,5 km from that point to A13. new knot is actually just in ex exit Dolo/Mirano.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Bypasses of Naples have 6 lane with no shoulders, and believe me it needs 20 lanes as it is incredible jammed in rush hours 
Unfortunately there is not enough space to enlarge it: it is mostly on viaduct.
It would be useful to build another bypass North of it or at least to 'upgrade' the freeways in its hinterland

About Rome (A1) bypass: there is a project to build a 4th lane, but I agree that 3 lanes are way enough 

But GRA (Rome ring) was recently upgraded to 6 lanes (+2 shoulders) for its whole length and it really need it


----------



## Verso

Does anyone have pics of A28? I haven't driven there yet. It seems to be a real motorway (autostrada), but for some reason it's free of charge and has many interchanges.


----------



## keber

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Bypasses of Naples have 6 lane with no shoulders, and believe me it needs 20 lanes as it is incredible jammed in rush hours
> Unfortunately there is not enough space to enlarge it: it is mostly on viaduct.
> It would be useful to build another bypass North of it or at least to 'upgrade' the freeways in its hinterland


Actually I was referring to A30, which takes transit traffic to the south (like new A4 takes transit away from Mestre). A30 is modern and wide motorway, but far from overcrowded. Connection with A3 close to Salerno is, however, quite different story.



GENIUS LOCI said:


> About Rome (A1) bypass: there is a project to build a 4th lane, but I agree that 3 lanes are way enough


Probably it is more meaningful to upgrade A1 from Rome to Naples to 4th lane than bypass itself (probably will be enough wide for decades).


----------



## x-type

GENIUS LOCI said:


> About Rome (A1) bypass: there is a project to build a 4th lane, but I agree that 3 lanes are way enough


this is absolutely unneccessery. there are motorways that are prior to be upgraded in Italy. last summer A1 was ghostly empty where bypassing Roma (other sections were not empty at all - like everybody went to and from Roma)


----------



## Alien x

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Bypasses of Naples have 6 lane with no shoulders, and believe me it needs 20 lanes as it is incredible jammed in rush hours
> Unfortunately there is not enough space to enlarge it: it is mostly on viaduct.
> It would be useful to build another bypass North of it or at least to 'upgrade' the freeways in its hinterland
> 
> About Rome (A1) bypass: there is a project to build a 4th lane, but I agree that 3 lanes are way enough
> 
> But GRA (Rome ring) was recently upgraded to 6 lanes (+2 shoulders) for its whole length and it really need it


As for the GRA now if they would reconstruct some exits and local roads (viabilità locale) and expand A24 and maybe increase urban penetration of the other highways they could resolve the rest of the traffic jams. Because certain section even 2x3(+1) just doesn't help when you exit onto roads with stop vehicles. It just starts backing up onto the GRA. That said, the outside lane since being completed has improved but only on the northern part. :cheers:


----------



## Verso

Oh ok, I thought they were embassies of Slovenia, Russia and the Vatican to Italy, I wasn't thinking about the Vatican's smallness. :nuts:


----------



## dj-micky

I have some old pictures ... ^^

        


my "tour de italia"


----------



## Verso

dj-micky said:


>


Too bad you didn't take a photo of the other sign, with Ljubljana wrongly spelled. :lol:


----------



## Eddard Stark

Verso said:


> Too bad you didn't take a photo of the other sign, with Ljubljana wrongly spelled. :lol:


How is it written?


----------



## Verso

L*i*ubljana or Ljubl*i*ana, can't remember.


----------



## dj-micky

oh you mean this here?


----------



## RipleyLV

^^ I don't think that's the sign Verso meant. Ljubljana and Postojna are written correctly.


----------



## Verso

dj-micky said:


> oh you mean this here?


I can't believe they corrected it after some 20 years.  You can see the corrected name is added (lighter blue than the rest of the sign).  But it's possible it's not this sign actually, so the wrong one is maybe still there somewhere. Notice how tiny Postojna is written slightly bigger than 30 times bigger Ljubljana. :lol:


----------



## dj-micky

okay mission2 : to correct this sign ^.^


----------



## Verso

^^ I think everything is correct here too.


----------



## dj-micky

No theres Lubiana on the left  hahaa


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
Lubiana is the Italian spelling


----------



## Verso

Yeah, like Trst.  (but we also have 'Trieste' on most other signs, this sign is old and ugly anyway)


----------



## Timon91

"Triest" means "sad" in Dutch


----------



## dj-micky

GENIUS LOCI said:


> ^^
> Lubiana is the Italian spelling


oh okay... new for me. thanks


----------



## x-type

Timon91 said:


> "Triest" means "sad" in Dutch


it actually means "sad" in many romanic languages. interesting that dutch has found it's place among them


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

In italian sad is _triste_


----------



## Morsue

dj-micky said:


> I have some old pictures ... ^^
> 
> 
> my "tour de italia"


A fine tunnel indeed! :cheers:


----------



## panda80

GENIUS LOCI said:


> In italian sad is _triste_


in romanian is 'trist'.interesting, dutch seem to have some words very similar to latin languages.


----------



## poller1

panda80 said:


> in romanian is 'trist'.interesting, dutch seem to have some words very similar to latin languages.



French influence.


----------



## RipleyLV

SS143 - Sandigliano town. 









SP288 - Biella bypass. 









A4 - Mestre, no comment. 27.06.2008.


----------



## Mateusz

What's the widest stretch of motorway in Italy ?

What's the progress on Mestre new bypass ?


----------



## RipleyLV

Mateusz said:


> What's the progress on Mestre new bypass ?


Edit: It was opened for traffic on 8th February, 2009.


----------



## x-type

Mateusz said:


> What's the widest stretch of motorway in Italy ?


i guess A1 Tangenziale di Modena. 4+4, SOS lanes and laterals 2+2 with SOS lanes


----------



## H123Laci

^^ the question is answered in an international effort... :lol:


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

x-type said:


> i guess A1 Tangenziale di Modena. 4+4, SOS lanes and laterals 2+2 with SOS lanes


With lateral lanes of Modena Tangenziale it is very likely it is the wider highway stretch


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Let's tell you something about A4 Torino-Milano construction of emergency lane (they ended the stretch between Torino and Novara) 
I find interesting the new interchanges and ramps... but I also find very interesting the renewal of highways bus stations
Infact the stretch between Torino and Milano ever had dedicated and frequent bus stations of 'Autostradale' service...
New stations are 'wider', with dedicated lanes to allow the busses to get in and out the station more properly (before they were a sort of big SOS parking), new and better 'shelters' for passengers, and modern car parks
Unfortunately there are not streetview pics of these last ones, just satellite images






































An old type one still waiting for 'upgrade'


----------



## Slagathor

Question for the Italian members here: I've lived in Naples for a while and I was wondering if the viaducts and bridges have been built to be earthquake-proof. 

In a worst case scenario, an eruption of Mount Vesuvius would be preceded by an earthquake. If all the major highways collapse, you wouldn't be able to evacuate all those people in time. Has that been taken into consideration?


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Slagathor said:


> Question for the Italian members here: I've lived in Naples for a while and I was wondering if the viaducts and bridges have been built to be earthquake-proof.
> 
> In a worst case scenario, an eruption of Mount Vesuvius would be preceded by an earthquake. If all the major highways collapse, you wouldn't be able to evacuate all those people in time. Has that been taken into consideration?


Sincerely I don't know if they are eq proof.
Surely Napoli Tangenziale, A1 (former A2) and A3 were built in '60s, before there were any antisysmic legislations
That doesn't mean they couldn't front properly a quake, but I sincerely don't know if there were any kind of verification on 'em or/and evenctually adequation

I remember that during the quake of 1980 (which was not properly in Naples, but it was stronger than the one of 2 weeks ago in Abruzzo, and caused many damages and deaths even in Naples) there were not particular problems of this kind... anyway Naples is not on a high risk sysmic zone: it's in a medium zone

About Vesuvio volcano: actually people (even in Italy) normally think it is a danger for the city itself in case of eruption. That's not true: it is a danger for the Eastern MA of Naples, the municipalities laying just on the border of the volcano (as Pompei or Ercolano, for istance, as 2000 years ago)
The strongest eruption ever remembered infact is the famous one of Roman age and destroyed Pompei and Ercolano, didn't reach Naples at all.
There were many other eruptions during the centuries and no one affected Naples directely: the last one was during the Second World War in 1944.

Anyway I don't mean there are nothing to be worried of, (I don't think in a massive eruption everything will go right: over all for the thousand houses built without permission in the critical area near the Volcano mouth) but to be moderatley 'awared' to be prepared. They've done even massive exercitations of evacuation of 'red zone' near the volcano with the partecipation of over 100k citizens... then, respect earthquake, volcanos eruptions can be forecasted even weeks in advance.
Even on Pompei devastating eruption ancient Romans were awared by dozens of little quakes in past days... unfortunately they didn't know Vesuvio was a volcano (it was a sleeping volcano for thousands years and its shape was the one of an ordinary mountain) till its top litterally exploded


----------



## Slagathor

Oh that would annoy you, wouldn't it? All this time everybody thinks it's a normal mountain, then its head explodes. Evil.

I'm Dutch of course, so the worst danger I'm used to is living beneath sea level. We don't have any volcanoes here and it struck me as a pretty risky place to keep a major city. 

Do love Naples though, fantastic city.

Thanks for your detailed answer


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Anyway, even if my parents are from Naples, I'm from Milan and the worst danger I'm used to is crossing street walkin' off pedestrian crossing


----------



## Verso

Wow, I didn't know the Milano-Torino motorway had bus stops.


----------



## Slagathor

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Anyway, even if my parents are from Naples, I'm from Milan and the worst danger I'm used to is crossing street walkin' off pedestrian crossing


Dangerous enough in Milan


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> Wow, I didn't know the Milano-Torino motorway had bus stops.



This is a pdf of the Milano-Torino _'Autostradale'_ bus service timetable: the stops between _Milano inizio A4 _and _Settimo Torinese_ are on the motorway; the other ones within the cities of Milan and Turin

http://www.autostradale.it/pdf/Milano_Torino_dal01012009.pdf


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Streetview pics of urban expressways in Rome























































This is going to be demolished


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Always Rome

GRA (ring road)


----------



## SCWTC4

GENIUS LOCI said:


> This is going to be demolished


the infamous "tangenziale est" 

someone may recognize this one because is featured in one of fantozzi's movies :lol:


----------



## Verso

GENIUS LOCI said:


>


This is for everyone who didn't know the motorroad sign existed in Italy too. What's the general speed limit on such roads? 90 km/h?


----------



## Sonic from Padova

Noooo.....ma demoliscono la tangenziale di Fantozzi? che peccato


----------



## keber

^^ Surely the ugliest thing to see, when arriving into Rome with train (apart from jungle of TV-antennas on residential buildings)


----------



## Verso

Bologna-Florence is an old motorway. It's funny to see sharp curves on a 6-lane motorway.


----------



## bozata90

Verso said:


> Bologna-Florence is an old motorway. It's funny to see sharp curves on a 6-lane motorway.


It is being reconstructed... These new ~20 six-laned kms do not have sharp curves... there are many tunnels (quite wide and impressive) there.


----------



## x-type

keber said:


> Yes. One of the tunnels with a sharp curve on very old A1 Bologna-Firenze:
> http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z202/keber1/A1-02.jpg
> Another picture from a viaduct on the same motorway:
> http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z202/keber1/A1-01.jpg
> Those light look fancy, however motorway there is horrible.


no, i didn't mean those. i remember small lights which were set quite dense, app. each 20 meters i'd say. they were double, so each light was actually 2 lights one upon the other


----------



## Eddard Stark

bozata90 said:


> It is being reconstructed... These new ~20 six-laned kms do not have sharp curves... there are many tunnels (quite wide and impressive) there.


Correct...well better, they are building a NEW highway ON TOP (not phisically of course) of the existing one...

At the end between Florence and Bologna there will be two 4+2 highways, one old and one new.

Actually a few km before and after will be 6+2, they are basically the new ones you can see in the pictures above.

Are there other places in the world with 2 overlapping highways?


----------



## Eddard Stark

lpioe said:


> Are distance signs getting more common in Italy?
> From what I remember driving there there are few real distance signs.
> The next big city is often signed in the middle on the small signs.
> But real distance signs with multiple cities on the right side I've seen few.
> Sometimes far away cities like Lyon between Milan and Turin or Paris and Marseille between Genoa and the french border, but those cities are only signed once.


I see them now in most highways in north italy, not that they are that useful anyway


----------



## Coccodrillo

GENIUS LOCI said:


> ^^
> I hope they are going to update it: anyway it will remain opened to traffic (for that the name of the new stretch is 'variante') and you could chose what way run on (probably old one won't be allowed to trukcs and possibly signage will be in a way to facilitate the choose: for istance 'sending' long-distance traffic on the new 'variante' and the local one on the old branch)


I have heard the inverse, that trucks transporting dangerous goods will be obliged to sue the old motorway because of the long (8,5 km) tunnel of the new road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Sounds plausible. That's also the downside of long tunnels in urban areas with no good alternatives... It means hazmats have to travel across the surface streets in urban areas. That's not really safe either.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

x-type said:


> no, i didn't mean those. i remember small lights which were set quite dense, app. each 20 meters i'd say. they were double, so each light was actually 2 lights one upon the other


On a long, straight and flat stretch with Corten crash barriers? Fog guide lights.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Coccodrillo said:


> I have heard the inverse, that trucks transporting dangerous goods will be obliged to sue the old motorway because of the long (8,5 km) tunnel of the new road.


I thought something similar, but even thought that old stretch has many tunnels as well (even if less and shorter) and their standars are not high in case of accident.


----------



## Coccodrillo

They may upgrade the old tunnel. Maybe after another accident like the one in Viareggio...


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

[OT]It would be interesting to know your point of view about Viareggio accident; obviuosly I mean on Italian forum[/OT]


----------



## x-type

WalkTheWorld said:


> On a long, straight and flat stretch with Corten crash barriers? Fog guide lights.


yes! i remember those at exit ramps and near toll stations! does it sill exist?


----------



## iCarlz

*Autostrada A14 From Rimini to Bologna*

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/24138879










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/24138949










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/24138528










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/24138521










*and a Bugatti near Lake Como*

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/24138461


----------



## TohrAlkimista

Damn, you spotted my baby in the last pic!


----------



## Shezan

^^ your baby...with another owner :crazy2:
---

Calatrava bridges on the A1 highway close to Reggio Emilia Toll Station





http://www.flickr.com/photos/ecatoncheires/sets/72157603554312074/with/1834296376/


----------



## Verso

^^ Wow, awesome bridges!


----------



## TohrAlkimista

Hopefully they'll build the Reggio Emilia's HSL railway station too nearby that segment of A1! :happy:


----------



## DSzumaher

A22 Autostrada del Brennero
Lago di Garda nord - Verona nord(see more pics, click above link)

Viaduct over A22 on ramps








Which barely entered the motorway, and no longer have to slow down, ie it does not accelerate








VMS
























Was needed the temporary table?








Limit in fog
















































































Under A22









to be continued...


----------



## DSzumaher

A22 Autostrada del Brennero
Verona nord - Lago di Garda nord

Before the gates and before the roundabout








Choosing the ramp








































Regions' border
























Unusual traffic management

































to be continued...


----------



## yalin155

I have a few pics of the A22 (11.06.2009) route Brennero - Ragusa (Sicily)


----------



## DSzumaher

A22 Autostrada del Brennero
area di servizio Laimburg - I/A border


Exit from service station








































































































































EC Leonardo da Vinci (Milan -> Munich)
































Strange that there isn't German version - Freienfeld
































































Last exit in Italian side









the end.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> Unusual traffic management


That's an 3-1 setup. Not that uncommon, but 4-0 is more common, yes.


----------



## yalin155

continue..


----------



## TohrAlkimista

Great report! 

Who refreshes my memory, telling me what's going on that part of the A22? What kind of works are them, enlargement?


----------



## WalkTheWorld

x-type said:


> yes! i remember those at exit ramps and near toll stations! does it sill exist?


Don't know, but a good 60/70 km of the A22 has it full length near the Po river.

Steady light = some mist ahead.
Slowly glowing = careful
Whiplash = follow me.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

TohrAlkimista said:


> Great report!
> 
> Who refreshes my memory, telling me what's going on that part of the A22? What kind of works are them, enlargement?


I knew they have to add 3d lane


----------



## Alien x

...


----------



## Mateusz

These barriers are so rusty, how old are they ?


----------



## Mauz®

Mateusz said:


> These barriers are so rusty, how old are they ?


I think they look this way because they are made in corten, a steel characterized by high resistance in corrosion and in case of impact and that has this colour, if exposed to weather conditions! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_steel


----------



## TohrAlkimista

Mateusz said:


> These barriers are so rusty, how old are they ?


A lot of them are brand new.


----------



## Mateusz

What

this is harsh !  I though these crashbarriers are somehow protected


----------



## Timon91

^^Only in Bulgaria


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Engineering and testing of in-house designed safety barriers to improve user safety 

In the ‘90’s, Autostrada del Brennero Spa invested heavily in user safety by constructing its own safety barriers in Core-Ten steel.
Currently, most of the “Autobrennero-type” safety barriers have been subjected to crash tests (in line with the provisions of Italian Ministerial Decree dated 21 June 2004) and the certification procedure has been submitted to the Italian Ministry for Infrastructure and Transport.
The Company is still working on the experimenting of its own safety barriers with the objective to further improve the safety standards of its stretch of motorway and, is currently developing a new prototype for the closing of the by-pass in the central guardrail.

http://www.autobrennero.it/interne/safety_barriers_interna.ashx?id=57&l=2


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Mauz® said:


> I think they look this way because they are made in corten, a steel characterized by high resistance in corrosion and in case of impact and that has this colour, if exposed to weather conditions!
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_steel


Exactly, the newer they are and the rustier thy look. Older ones look brown.

Indeed the outer surface of uncoated Corten takes a few microns of rust but that's as far as corrosion goes. Corten (which is considerably more expensive than the highest yield standard steel) does not age and keeps elasticity and resilience in all weather conditions through the years.

Funny enough only A22 is apparently using it. Partly because of the cost and partly because somebody prefers the shiny look, which does not necessarily mean less safety, but surely less safety over the years.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Mateusz said:


> What
> 
> this is harsh !  I though these crashbarriers are somehow protected


Beacuse of chemistry Corten does not galvanized well. Plus it would be a waste of money cause it cannot be corroded.


----------



## RipleyLV

delete


----------



## RipleyLV

*Trieste bypass*

Second report of Trieste bypass, I remember Verso doing it.  My photos start after SLO/I border Fernetiči/Fernetti. Approaching junction with A4 Torino-Trieste motorway.









Joined the RA13 motorway, which can already be considered as Trieste bypass.













































Inside the three kilometer tunnel.









Motorway ends and the SS202 expressway (superstrada) begins.









Another tunnel (392 m).









There are great views from the expressway on Trieste and the Adriatic Sea.


















We'll be driving there. 



























Reactivation border control, because then was some kind of a summit in Italy at the border they checked passports.









Exit for the new expressway for Koper/Capodistria (Slovenia). 









We were driving up there. 









Approaching junction with the old road to Koper/Capodistria.


















Triestes commieblocks.


















A short tunnel here (247 m).


















Last kilometers of the expressway.









Were off the expressway and now on a street in Trieste by the port.









Boats!









Now some pictures going uphill.









Cranes and the Adriatic sea. 


















Exit for the new expressway for Koper/Capodistria (Slovenia). 









That's it.


----------



## RipleyLV

Verso said:


> What does it say here?
> 
> EXTRA
> UE
> TURCHIA
> TRUCK
> 
> ? :crazy:


Wasn't easy to find this post. 

As I mentioned before, yes, it's a special lane for Turkish trucks, because they come here massively by a ferry which dock's in Trieste port. Here, in this picture all trucks you see on that viaduct are from Turkey. 









View from Trieste bypass.









And here are pictures of their little ferry.


----------



## Verso

^^ I see a lot of plagiarism in your post!  Hey, awesome pics, driving on SS202 must be much better in a truck, where you can see the sea and other parts of the bypass, which can also be seen on pics.


----------



## RipleyLV

Verso said:


> ^^ I see a lot of plagiarism in your post!


Yeah, that's true.  

I remember driving on the old bypass (in 2006?) when this new tunnel wasn't opened yet. If you're in a truck or a bus you can actually see whole the Trieste city, unforgettable views, then I didn't own a digital camera so I couldn't make any pictures.


----------



## TohrAlkimista

ChrisZwolle said:


> Caserta = southern Italy = Mafia kill?


Please, do something for me.

Next time you want to write such idiotic posts, count from 1 to 10, think about it, then realize if it's the case of keeping the servers of SSC busier.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

TohrAlkimista said:


> Please, do something for me.
> 
> Next time you want to write such idiotic posts, count from 1 to 10, think about it, then realize if it's the case of keeping the servers of SSC busier.


Chill out.

Keber reported an accident with a dead man on the motorway with no damaged cars. I only suggested that it may have been a gang or mafia war. These things happen all the time, also in Italy. Do you know how many times they find dead bodies along motorways in the Netherlands? Nothing to get all riled up for


----------



## Timon91

I forgot that Ripley made a lot of pics around Trieste not so long ago, I guess that I've only made pics of motorways that have already been photographed often already hno:


----------



## plottigat

ChrisZwolle said:


> Chill out.
> 
> Keber reported an accident with a dead man on the motorway with no damaged cars. I only suggested that it may have been a gang or mafia war. These things happen all the time, also in Italy. Do you know how many times they find dead bodies along motorways in the Netherlands? Nothing to get all riled up for


Chris, if you had grown up watching on TV the bodies of policemen and judges murdered by mafia in the 80s you'd understand Thor's reaction.
For us mafia is neither Marlon Brando acting Don Corleone nor Tony Soprano, for us mafia means dozens of state funerals.
it isn't easy to "chill out" about tragedies.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Back on the road 

BTW I found some interesting videos about Salerno-Reggio Calabria, even if they're a bit outdated (2/3 months ago)
They're critics as they presented A3 as _'national shame'_ (quite common opinion in Italy, referred to the 'ininitive' works), but enjoy the trip anyway :cheers:


----------



## Verso

^^ Wow, you can drive whole A3 on those videos.


----------



## keber

TohrAlkimista said:


> What's the video are you talking about?


I took the video of this accident when driving by.


----------



## keber

Verso said:


> ^^ Wow, you can drive whole A3 on those videos.


Maybe around one third of whole route with that speed.:lol:

Well, it took me 4 and 1/2 hours from Salerno to Pizzo (about 340 km southbound on Friday afternoon). One lane traffic for tens of km/s, numerous short lane closures and heavy traffic in the beginning makes travelling on A3 a long-duration travel.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
Damn... I probably will go there in the second half of August


----------



## keber

There are currently 4 major construction sites on A3 with uninterrupted one lane traffic: 
- one short, but very congested part before interchange for Potenza (as I saw, it could be temporarily widened for Ferragosto);
- 31 km long (and probably most annoying) part between Montesano and Lauria - this one is probably the most annoying;
- 10-15 km long part south of Cosenza;
- about 40 km long part between Palmi and Villa S. Giovanni (it doesn't seem to have happened much in last two years) - broken truck means immediate jams for kilometers.

I will post some pictures in following days.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

>10 km stretches of one lane is really unacceptable imo. The level of service is very low that way, and the slightest disruptions have significant impact. 

Ofcourse, you don't improve a 400 kilometer motorway in a few years. Maybe they should implement more 10-10-10 sections, which mean 10 km of construction, 10km free flow (2x2) and then 10 km of construction again. Ofcourse, due to tunnels and bridges, you have to be a bit flexible in this approach. 

However, I sometimes think it might be even better to close down significant portions of the A3 for like 1 year, and detour traffic onto the S18, which seems like a high standard road that bypasses most villages. Local traffic could use the S19. That ought to speed up the construction time. As it is going now, it indeed seems like an endless construction site.


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> However, I sometimes think it might be even better to close down significant portions of the A3 for like 1 year, and detour traffic onto the S18, which seems like a high standard road that bypasses most villages.


Here you are very wrong. S18 is actually very winding road (and even not very wide in many parts) and doesn't bypass many towns. Even partially closed A3 is much better alternative.

Many think correctly that Calabria isn't flat, but they are wrong thinking that it is hilly. Actually it is very mountainous and that's why great number of objects is necessary.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Hmm, a quick scan of the Cosenza province learns me that S18 runs pretty straight. But it might be more winding in other areas, especially south of the Catanzaro province and the Salerno province.


----------



## keber

S18 is mostly quite far away from A3 and has therefore enough traffic already.

However some signs on A3 recommend using SS18 in case of heavy jams (means hours of waiting). In normal case (like mine) this is not advisable. It would be better if ANAS would take some serious action. As I saw ANAS (at least in the south) is pretty lazy and incapable company.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
I think one of the problem with A3 is that is 'owned' by ANAS and not by Autostrade spa or other subjects which normally have their major 'bussiness' on highways (and infact many Superstrade are owned by Anas and are in bad condition)


----------



## TohrAlkimista

keber said:


> S18 is mostly quite far away from A3 and has therefore enough traffic alreadIt would be better if ANAS would take some serious action. As I saw ANAS (at least in the south) is pretty lazy and incapable company.


Don't worry, not only in the south...it's an incapable company itself throught whole the country. hno:

BTW, a general question: I'm going to Puglia the next week probably.

What's the condition of the motorway coming from Lombardia?
I know the road till Bologna well, but after?


----------



## RipleyLV

Are there any plans of building a new northern bypass of Milan? A4 is a bottleneck there.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Yes the Pedemontana: http://www.pedemontana.com/

There were some posts about it, search in the older pages.


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

GENIUS LOCI said:


> ^^
> Damn... I probably will go there in the second half of August


Good luck!


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

Verso said:


> ^^ Wow, you can drive whole A3 on those videos.


A nice experience also with the videos!


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

RipleyLV said:


> Are there any plans of building a new northern bypass of Milan? A4 is a bottleneck there.


This map show forecasted plans for Milan area










The Pedemontana motorway (mentioned by coccodrillo) will start construction within 2010 (spring)
Then there will be the completion of Northern bypass, just few km North of A4 and urban stretch of A4 will be widened from 3 to 4 lanes (the 4th one will be a dynamic lane)


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Today Italian network is totally jammed http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_...to_4d8648c2-7e7c-11de-812c-00144f02aabc.shtml

Mestre bypass was closed due to the heavy traffic which formed even more than 30 km of queue


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.autostrade.it/autostrade/traffico.do

but not all roads are covered by this site.


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> http://www.autostrade.it/autostrade/traffico.do
> 
> but not all roads are covered by this site.


No, just those under supervision of Autostrade spa.

Autovie Veneto has currently everything in red


----------



## keber

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Today Italian network is totally jammed http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_...to_4d8648c2-7e7c-11de-812c-00144f02aabc.shtml
> 
> Mestre bypass was closed due to the heavy traffic which formed even more than 30 km of queue


I wondered myself, when I drove there last weekend, what can happen in heavy traffic, when you reduce 5 motorway lanes into just two. Widening to 3+3 towards Trieste at least for next 10 km or so should be a priority.


----------



## Eddard Stark

keber said:


> I wondered myself, when I drove there last weekend, what can happen in heavy traffic, when you reduce 5 motorway lanes into just two. Widening to 3+3 towards Trieste at least for next 10 km or so should be a priority.


it's a top priority...the 3+3 shall go all the way to Gorizia highway. But at this point I think it would be better to have 4 lanes up to Jesolo and 3 afterwards

I hope they can update the project


----------



## TohrAlkimista

Mestre bypass invaded by some 150k cars! :nuts:



































La coda infinita in A4, subito dopo Venezia Est, per Trieste:


----------



## Timon91

Is that all holiday traffic? The Dutch ANWB warns for jams on the A4 Venezia-Trieste and the A23 Udine-Tarvisio because of holiday traffic this weekend.


----------



## Timon91

We'll just go to the next page for some pics :cheers:


----------



## Eleinad

keber said:


> I wondered myself, when I drove there last weekend, what can happen in heavy traffic, when you reduce 5 motorway lanes into just two. Widening to 3+3 towards Trieste at least for next 10 km or so should be a priority.


The most stunning thing is that while the passante (blue) was completly jammed the tangenziale (green) was almost free... but none notified the users.










Ps. It is the first time the passante is jammed. This is because on the first of August almost 150.000 cars decided to experiment it at the same time...


----------



## Timon91

SS202 Porto di Trieste - SS15

Before I posted the border pictures, I should've posted these. I took these pictures on our way back from a short visit to Trieste. 

1. Leaving Trieste city center on our way to the SS202.










2. The beginning of the very narrow SS202.










3. Trieste harbour.










4. The suburbs of Trieste in a distance.










5. Harbour.










6. I wouldn't call it a sunny day 










7. It's quite a curvy road.










8. Noise barriers.










9. It just says "Slovenia". IMO it should say "Capodistria/Koper" over here.










10. Oil refineries. We forgot to switch the air circulation to "inside" when we left Trieste, so the whole car was stinking hno: 










11. 










12. Harbour area. I think that this is "Zaula Zona Industriale".










13. Viaduct.










14. We follow "Capodistria" here.










15. Leaving the SS202.










Pics of the SS15 will be in the next post


----------



## Timon91

SS15 Trieste - I/SLO border

16. 










17. Only a little bit of traffic over here.










18. Close to the border.










19. Slovenia 250m.










That's it, sorry about the weather. I still hope you liked it


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice. Photographing while it rains is possible, as long as there isn't much splash from traffic.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Timon91 said:


> sorry about the weather


Don't worry; I don't think it was your fault it was raining


----------



## Timon91

Actually the rain was pretty welcome. The day before it was 38 degrees, this day it was only 22. The days afterwards I hardly saw any cloud, so it got hot again, but by the time temperature reached 38 degrees I was already back home 

On the other hand, I have pictures of the SS15 the other way and the SS202 (to A4; Trieste bypass) in sunny weather


----------



## Verso

Timon91 said:


> 9. It just says "Slovenia". IMO it should say "Capodistria/Koper" over here.


What about my city?  There are three main directions for Slovenia (ok, the one for Rijeka is more about Croatia).


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## snowman159

A few years back I was in a colossal traffic jam on the northbound A4 for several hours, caused by the toll plaza (barriera di mestre). It was also the first day of summer vacation for most Italians and TV crews were filming the mess. They also handed out free water bottles and brochures on safe driving and how to keep your calm during stressful situations. 

Has widening of the A4 north of Mestre already started or is it still in the planning phase?


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## Eleinad

> Italian highways are managed by a plenty of different societies, of which most users are not aware.
> 
> This situation can lead to difficulties when looking for up-to-date information, such as traffic info, traffic jams & road conditions, etc.
> 
> This page summarizes the situation up, indicating the society handling each highway or toll tunnel, and providing a quick link to the related web site (when existing).


http://edenti.deis.unibo.it/utils/autostrade.html

*A1* 
Milano - Napoli Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it

*A3* 
Napoli - Salerno Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it
Salerno - Reggio Calabria ANAS (senza padaggio) www.stradeanas.it

*A4* 
Torino - Milano Autostrada Torino-Milano SpA www.autostrade.it
Milano - Brescia Autostrade SpA www.autobspd.it
Brescia - Padova Autostrada Serenissima SpA www.autovepd.it
Padova - Venezia Società Autostrade di Venezia e Padova www.autovie.it
Venezia- Trieste Autovie Venete www.satapweb.it

*A5* 
Torino - Aosta (per Tunnel T1) ATIVA SpA www.ativa.it
Aosta - Monte Bianco (per Tunnel T1 ) Raccordo Autostradale Val d'Aosta SpA www.autostrade.it (ex www.ravspa.it)

*A6* 
Torino - Savona Autostrada Torino-Savona Spa www.autostrade.it (ex www.tosv.it)

*A7* 
Milano - Serravalle Soc. Aut. Serravalle - Milano - Ponte Chiasso www.serravalle.it
Serravalle - Genova Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it

*A8*
Milano - Varese (e dir.) Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it

*A9* 
Lainate (all. A8) - Como - Chiasso Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it

*A10* 
Genova - Savona Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it
Savona - Ventimiglia Autostrada dei Fiori SpA www.autofiori.it

*A11* 
Firenze - mare Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it


*A12* 
Genova - Sestri Levante Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it
Sestri Levante - Livorno Soc. Autostrada Ligure Toscana (SALT) www.salt.it
Livorno - Rosignano Soc. Autostrada Tirrenica (SAT) SpA www.autostrade.it
Civitavecchia - Roma Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it 

*A13* 
Bologna - Padova Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it

*A14* 
Bologna - Ancona - Bari - Taranto Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it

*A15* 
Parma - La Spezia Autocamionale della Cisa SpA www.autocisa.com

*A16* 
Napoli - Canosa Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it

*A18* 
Messina - Catania - Siracusa - Gela Consorzio per le Autostrade Siciliane SpA www.autostradesiciliane.it

*A19* 
Catania - Palermo ANAS (senza pedaggio) www.stradeanas.it

*A20* 
Messina - Palermo Consorzio per le Autostrade Siciliane SpA www.autostradesiciliane.it

*A21* 
Torino - Piacenza Soc. Autostrada TO-AL-PC (SATAP) SpA www.satapweb.it
Piacenza - Cremona - Brescia Autostrade Centro Padane (ACP) SpA www.centropadane.it (senza info di viabilità)

*A22* 
Modena - Brennero Soc. Autobrennero SpA www.autobrennero.it

*A23* 
Palmanova (all. A4)- Udine Sud Autovie Venete www.autovie.it
Udine Sud - Tarvisio Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it

*A24* 
Roma - L'Aquila - Teramo Autostrada dei Parchi Spa www.stradadeiparchi.it

*A25* 
Torano - Avezzano - Pescara Autostrada dei Parchi Spa www.stradadeiparchi.it

*A26* 
Genova Voltri - Gravellona Toce Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it

*A27* 
Venezia - Belluno Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it

*A28* 
Portogruaro - Pordenone - Conegliano Autovie Venete www.autovie.it

*A29* 
Palermo - Mazara del Vallo (e dir.) ANAS (senza padaggio) www.stradeanas.it

*A30* 
Caserta - Salerno Autostrade SpA www.autostrade.it

*A31* 
Vicenza - Piovene Rocchette Autostrada Serenissima SpA www.autobspd.it

*A32* 
Torino - Bardonecchia - Tunnel Frejus Soc. Italiana Traforo e Autostrada del Frejus www.sitaf.it

*T1* 
Traforo del Monte Bianco Soc. Italiana Traforo del Monte Bianco www.tunnelmb.it

*T2* 
Traforo del Gran S.Bernardo Soc. Italiana Traforo Gran S.Bernardo SpA www.sitrasb.it

*T4* 
Traforo del Frejus Soc. Italiana Traforo e Autostrada del Frejus www.sitaf.it

*A50* 
Tangenziale Ovest di Milano Soc. Aut. Serravalle - Milano - Ponte Chiasso www.serravalle.it

*A51* 
Tangenziale Est di Milano Soc. Aut. Serravalle - Milano - Ponte Chiasso www.serravalle.it

*A52* 
Tangenziale Nord di Milano Soc. Aut. Serravalle - Milano - Ponte Chiasso www.serravalle.it

*Tangenziale di Napoli* Autostrade SpA www.tangenziale-napoli.autostrade.it


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## Eddard Stark

s4Sco[86] said:


> aggiornamento fotografico di stamattina
> per i ringraziamenti,sappiate che sono ben accetti quelli provenienti da qualsiasi pasticceria
> 
> il resto della tangenziale lo conoscete già
> 
> "ferro di cavallo"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> prima dello scavalco per proseguire con il vecchio percorso della tangenziale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bivio e inizio autostrada
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> primo viadotto(dovrebbe essere quello del simeto)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> galleria in lontananza
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> inizio galleria ed interno.da notare pannelli luminosi e corsia d'emergenza in galleria:cheers:
> 
> all'interno della galleria c'è un percorso pedonale protetto illuminato a led.oltre ai vari pannelli informativi con limite di velocità e corsia utilizzabile
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tratto finale ed uscita a Lentini


they opened the first piece of the new Catania-Siracusa highway. A few km are missing to complete the entire highway system of the east cost of Sicily

Thanks to s4Sco who uploaded the pictures on the italian forum


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## Timon91

E751 SLO/I border - Trieste (S202)

These few pics are from the short stretch that starts at the Slovene-Italian border, and runs to the junction with the SS202.

1. Just entered Italy.










2. Dirty windshield again hno:










3. End of the road already. Traffic for Trieste takes the left lane, traffic for the rest of Western/Central/Northern Europe takes the right one 










4. Leaving the road.










That's it, this is a short stretch anyway


----------



## x-type

actually, that sign says that in exit there is stil SS202, and after last ramp begins A4


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## Timon91

Whatever, freaking Italians


----------



## Verso

That's not SS202 at all, but RA13.



Timon91 said:


> Since they don't sign anything at the motorway itself


Says who?  (this is an old photo though, when the motorway began by Padriciano (no Carso Tunnel yet), and 4 lanes haven't really started yet, but a few meters further) Another indicator is instead of seeing this ("A4" over "437"), you see this (it says "collegamento autostradale" (motorway connection)). Check these links:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strada_statale_202_Triestina
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccordo_autostradale_RA13










Oh, and the new expressway to Slovenia is apparently called SS15 Variante.


----------



## Eddard Stark

x-type said:


> expressways are superstrade
> there are also good expressways.
> 
> generally, i would say that italian motorways are in better condition than german


ooops...I always confuse them in english, from now on I will stick to Autostrade and Superstrade


----------



## Timon91

@Verso: I wouldn't say that that sign is very clear, but you're right, they do sign it


----------



## Verso

Is Maestro card already accepted? :banana:


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## Timon91

Dunno, we paid cash...


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## Verso

Next time, please answer someone who knows. :lol: They say August 2009, but I don't know which one. 1.8.?


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## Timon91

We'll just go to the next page for some pics


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## Timon91

A23 Udine - I/AT border

The A23 connects northeastern Italy to the Austrian motorway network. A lot of tourists can be seen on this road. This motorway was scenerywise the most beautiful motorway of my whole trip. Large parts of this motorway consist of bridges and tunnels. We had to pay €8,70 toll (A4 and A23), but it was worth every eurocent. The view on the Alps was magnificent and the motorway is in a good shape, though there were some road works.

1. It's still flat here.










2. Very flat.










3. At first I thought that this was the Udinese football stadium, but GM tells me that the stadium is on the other side of the motorway. It turns out to be sort of a race track or a training ground: Google Maps.










4. Rest area ahead.










5. Stadium floodlights.










6. High, concrete crashbarrier.










7. Railway bridge.










8. Empty 2×3, the Alps can be seen in a distance.










9. Tarvisio, confine di Stato (border) and Villach are continuously signed on the A23.










10. 










11. Viaduct.










12. On the shoulder there are lines leading you to the closest SOS spot.










13. Heading straight for the Alps.










14. Almost dry river bed. This reminds me of Alaska (exactly one year ago it was my last day there )










15. Unsharp 










16. Rusty crashbarrier on the left 










17. Straight motorway for a small bit.










18. Bridge+tunnel










19. Another viaduct, and some beautiful mountains 










20. 










21. Another viaduct ahead.










22. Empty 










23. Just too late 










That was part 1, part 2 is coming soon


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## Timon91

Part 2

24. Curve.










25. Guess what? Viaduct 










26. View into a valley.










27. 










28. Road works.










29. 










30. Narrow and beautiful valley 










31. Bridge+tunnel again.










32. Tunnel.










33. Roadworks ahead.










34. View to the mountains.










35. 










36. 










37. Motorway bridge seen through the side window.










38. 










39. Empty 










40. Tollstation in 800 meters.










41. Mount Peč, the tripoint of Italy, Austria and Slovenia. I walked to the top from Rateče, about one week earlier.










42. Railway overpass.










43. Exit Tarvisio.










44. 










45. Tunnel.










46. Straight and quiet 










47. The railway passes us again. Austria 500 meters now. Notice that Arnoldstein is 4,5 km on the sign. For such a short distance half kms are ok, but I've seen a sign saying "Villach 123,5" :nuts:










That's it! Hope you liked it, despite the dirty windshield


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## Eddard Stark

great! thank you so much for sharing!

One day I have to take pictures of A24-25 (Rome-Pescara) and you will be astonished by the landscape...it is even better than this one.


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## Mateusz

Great I remember this motorway and dry river too ! Seemed so exotic back then


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## RipleyLV

I remember driving there during the rain and that dry river was full of water. Great pics Timon!


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## ChrisZwolle

Nice stuff.

Signing a border from that far is useless... If it must be signed (not necessary in today's Schengen era), they should do it only from the last exit in Italy.


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## Falusi

Great report, I lke these tunnelled motorways.


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## x-type

Eddard Stark said:


> One day I have to take pictures of A24-25 (Rome-Pescara) and you will be astonished by the landscape...it is even better than this one.


i don't know A25, but i know A24 and you are absolutely right about it! here are some of mine from the last year.

timon, great photos! somehow i feel that those from Italy are the best from whole your trip


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## Timon91

Thanks  The weather was quite good when we drove on the A4 and the A23, that makes a big difference


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah true, making good pics depends largely on the weather.

Nothing kills a good picture like depressing gray weather. For instance, when I tell my co-workers about Poland, they always get this "gray" image of the country. I showed them some sunny pics, and they thought it actually looked quite nice.


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## x-type

but if you have sun in front of you, you can say goodbye to nice road photos hno:
i prefer cloudy weather, but not too dark for photographing roads


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## ChrisZwolle

Very interesting. The A3 has fascinated me since I was looking at maps... So remote, so mountainous and so few interchanges with other motorways. (I'm used to interchanges being 40 - 60km apart, not 400 km)


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## keber

For me it is still my favourite Italian motorway despite numerous construction sites, one-lane traffic sections and generally pretty bad condition. It is picturesque and full of magnificent landscape views and has some really impressive objects.


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## Coccodrillo

Lis of tunnels and viaducts on this and others motorways: http://www.lotsberg.net/data/italia/A03.html

Other lists: http://www.motorways-exitlists.com/


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## x-type

how much will new A3 follow the route of an old one?


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## pijanec

Why don't they just renovate the old one?


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## Coccodrillo

And...why don't keep both open?


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## keber

x-type said:


> how much will new A3 follow the route of an old one?


On that section almost nowhere, except on the top and on the bottom of that section. Renovating old section is impossible, because it is too curvy and objects are too much deteriorated. Also most slope viaducts are an eyesore looking from the seacoast. Impressive, but just too massive.

From my previous trip two years ago:


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## keber

*A3 San Mango d'Aquino - Pian del Lago:*
Another interesting part in terms of numerous viaducts and tunnels is south of large city Consenza. It follows very narrow and winding valley and climbs up to 640 m above sea. Pictures taken in direction of Salerno, northbound.

Some construction in the beginning, end part of about 10 km long section under reconstruction:































































Cooling in the scarce shadow at 36°C:


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## keber

*A3 Lauria - Padula*, 31 km long section under reconstruction, traffic flowing only on 1+1 the whole way. You need about 1 hour to traverse it, in "normal" traffic, because it is very hilly. I can't imagine what happened on most intensive ferragosto weekends.

(just three pictures taken northbound, July 2009)


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## Eddard Stark

After all these wonderful picture let's understand what is the situation of this endlessly under construction highway




In green the finisched parts, yellow U/C, orange and blu soon to start construction, red not started yet.

As you can see, this highway is probably the most difficult to build in Europe: 430 km of tunnels and bridges in a land - Calabria - which is friable in all its parts. On top of that, there is that little mafia problem in one of the most intensively mafia-dominated areas of Italy


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## Eddard Stark

There is moreover the plan to build a new "superstrada" on the ionian coast, a challenge even greater than this one probably. Here the state of the project. Same concept as the previous one. One of the most important piece will soon start to be built (in blu) connecting (almost) the adritic highways to the Salerno-Reggio


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## ChrisZwolle

The distance on A3 between A30 in Salerno and the end in Reggio Calabria is 443 kilometers. Gotta be the longest section of a motorway in Europe between a motorway-class road and an end without another motorway interchange.


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## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> The distance on A3 between A30 in Salerno and the end in Reggio Calabria is 443 kilometers. Gotta be the longest section of a motorway in Europe between a motorway-class road and an end without another motorway interchange.


where do you interchange? the entire stretch of Calabria is a line of mountains. Only mountains from top to bottom. High and difficult mountains, it's very difficult to build a nort-south highway imagine a west-east one. Besides there is very little to connect to....entire Calabria has 2 million people leaving sparsely in small villages and towns far from each other

Anyway there is a RA (motorway-like) to go to Potenza...the Salerno-Reggio starts much earlier

Another expressway connection is the one to go to Catanzaro. Finally another one will be built north of Cosenza to connect the highway to the adriatic (see above map).


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## Slagathor

A superstrada on the Ionian coast is a crazy idea, I don't think that will get finished in my life time!


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## JB Colbert

Verso said:


> Is Maestro card already accepted? :banana:


All kind of debt card are accepted


----------



## Eddard Stark

Slagathor said:


> A superstrada on the Ionian coast is a crazy idea, I don't think that will get finished in my life time!


Well you see...I believe after Italy will finish A3 in Calabria they will start investing heavily on the ionian superstrada

Actually the first piece has been already improved in the past years: from Taranto (end of A14) to the border of Calabria, intersecting the Potenza-Ionian superstrada (connected to the A3)

From there soon construction will start on the blu section in the map above, in order to connect the ionian "superstrada" to A3 north of Cosenza. This is importan in order to connect Apulia, Basilicata to the Calabria and Sicily.

Some other minor sections as you can se are U/C near Catanzaro (prolonging another existing superstrada) 

The other sections will likely be built after A3 is completed, if anything


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## Slagathor

Well, at least it'll be a route with spectacular views


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## iCarlz

*Some Photos of my Trip from Italy to Cannes (France)*

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26207338









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26208811









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26208816









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26208824









*in France*

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26208884









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26208912









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26208964









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26208972









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26208993









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26209044









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26208993









*back in Italy*

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26209069









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26209095


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## keber

^^ I need to go again on that beautiful coast. Someday.

Back to A3, some recently renovated parts are however excellent in contrary to decaying, almost 40 years old motorway.

*A3 Polla-interchange with SS407* (superstrada for Potenza) - northbound. You can see some considerable changes in alignment from old to new in Google Maps/Earth with "Roads" layer turned on:
































As you can see, hard shoulder is present through whole length of motorway, even in tunnels, no matter of their length. SOS nichés are frequent too.

Renovated part of A3 south of *Vibo Valentia*:









Shiny, wide and bright new tunnels in contrast to old, narrow and dark ones:


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## x-type

is that renovated old A3 or completely new section?


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## keber

Officially renovated old section, but technically it is completely new. Corridor is the same, but alignment of the road is straightened and all objects are completely new although some are on the posts of old ones, so they are just replaced.


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## Mateusz

There were some plans of building A12 between Livorno and Rome but no updates for a long though. 

It seems like SS1 is enough there


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## JB Colbert

The construction of A12 between Livorno and Rome could start next year


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## Mateusz

That's a cool info then

It's good because A1 is the only main route from Rome towards North


----------



## JB Colbert

Moreover this cause trafic congestion during the day and during the holidays on the A1.

In my opinion the A12 should reach Naples otherwise, when the branch between Livorno and Civitavecchia will be completed, there will be the risk to congestion the Rome GRA (ring of Rome) with long haul trafic.


----------



## JB Colbert

ChrisZwolle said:


> ...
> 
> I hope the Italians will refurbish their expressways the way like the Spaniards do  A1 and A3 are a good start, but there's a lot to do, and expressways seems to be neglected somewhat.


We pay the construction of the infrastructures with our own money on the contrary of the spaniard.
In according with the Maastricht parameters we are doing that.


----------



## Verso

It's L*j*ubljana. :bash: 









Other than that, I wanted to use my Maestro card today... but I didn't know I needed a _credit_ card. So guess what - I blocked the only card lane of the main Trieste toll station; fu**ing embarrassing!


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## ChrisZwolle

Rookie mistake! 

You'll see this in France too, when Dutch people try to go through the credit card lanes with their bank card.


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## x-type

here in HR card lanes work also with debit cards (i didn't know it till last week  ). 
i had problems in I with my credit card because it didn't have a chip, just a magnetic track. fortunately, my friend had one with chip so we didn't do (large) lane


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, but I bet debit cards of other countries won't be accepted...

With my Dutch bankcard (Maestro), I usually can only draw money at the ATM, I can't pay with it in shops. That's why I have a credit card.


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## pijanec

Credit card is a must for travel.


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## JB Colbert

@Verso
I paid a lot of time with Maestro


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## Verso

^^ Yes, but (probably) with a credit card, not a debit card.  (or perhaps Italian debit cards are accepted, but not foreign)


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## Majestic

Usually you can pay with your domestic debit card everywhere within your country. When you go abroad you can only do that with your credit card.


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## Renzokuken

Majestic said:


> Usually you can pay with your domestic debit card everywhere within your country. When you go abroad you can only do that with your credit card.


mmm you sure? I went abroad many times in different european countries without having a credit card (Visa / AMEX / Mastercard); I used my Maestro debit card from my bank in Italy and the cash retrieving at the ATMs worked just fine.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Yes, ATM's usually work with your maestro card, but try a supermarket or gas station.


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## JB Colbert

I picked up money with my Maestro (not credit card) at indian ATM, in Kashmir, and I didn't have problem.


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## Renzokuken

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Yes, ATM's usually work with your maestro card, but try a supermarket or gas station.


[OT]
Well, it happened to me 1 or 2 times to have issues paying at some POSes abroad with my debit card, but most of the times it worked. I don't consider those issues to be a rule because debit cards sometimes won't work at POSes, even in your home country. It depends on the network congestion between the POS and the Bank which emitted the debit card and between the POS and the merchant network of interest (Maestro/cirrus in our case).
But then again, it could also happen at ATMs.
[/OT]


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## pijanec

ATMs are not problematic. You can get your cash anywhere with just Maestro card. The more problematic are POS terminals.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Verso said:


> It's L*j*ubljana. :bash:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other than that, I wanted to use my Maestro card today... but I didn't know I needed a _credit_ card. So guess what - I blocked the only card lane of the main Trieste toll station; fu**ing embarrassing!


let's just write Lubliana in italian so we cannot get confused...besides that's usually the case in foreign countries


----------



## Verso

^ Go to Belgium (without GPS), and I'm sure you'll change your mind. :lol:


----------



## Timon91

At least Ljubljana and Lubiana are a bit similar. Lille/Rijsel and Doornik/Tournai for example aren't similar at all hno:


----------



## WalkTheWorld

JB Colbert said:


> I picked up money with my Maestro (not credit card) at indian ATM, in Kashmir, and I didn't have problem.


You guys are both right to a point.

National debit cards always work at home only. With my domestic debt card I couldn't even withdraw money abroad. It works worldwide if it's linked to some international chain. I have a Mondo card linked to Maestro and Cirrus and I can do virtually everything everywhere with a few exceptions.

Some shops only take links other than Maestro and Cirrus which are the most common.

Some big supermarket chains have their own ATM that only hand out money to owner's of the chain card.

Some banks just act silly. Chase Manhattan takes it, Barclay's will take in the UK but not in hte US...


----------



## Rijeka

Timon91 said:


> At least Ljubljana and Lubiana are a bit similar. Lille/Rijsel and Doornik/Tournai for example aren't similar at all hno:


What about Wien/Beč? :lol:

P.S. Sorry for the OT.


----------



## Timon91

There are of course more examples, but Verso was talking about Belgium.


----------



## Eleinad

Verso said:


> Other than that, I wanted to use my Maestro card today... but I didn't know I needed a _credit_ card. So guess what - I blocked the only card lane of the main Trieste toll station; fu**ing embarrassing!


Verso, Verso:

http://www.autostrade.it/pdf/payment-options.pdf

Maestro is well accepted.

Moreover I paied all over the EU with my Maestro Debt Card without any problems.


----------



## Eleinad

Eddard Stark said:


> let's just write Lubliana in italian so we cannot get confused...besides that's usually the case in foreign countries


Actually in Italian is Lubiana.


----------



## Palance

Why Liubiana (which is logical since the Italian language does not know the letter "J"), but no Fiume and Capodistria?


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## Eleinad

Palance said:


> Why Liubiana (which is logical since the Italian language does not know the letter "J"), but no Fiume and Capodistria?


Because the dude who made the road sign wanted to write the names of the cities in Slovenian and Croatian and not in Italian, but made a mistake with Ljubljana.

In Italian the names would be:
Ljubljana - Lubiana
Postojna - Postumia
Koper - Capodistria
Rijeka - Fiume


----------



## Verso

Palance said:


> Why Liubiana (which is logical since the Italian language does not know the letter "J"), but no Fiume and Capodistria?


There's "J" in "Liubl*j*ana" anyway, as well as in Posto*j*na and Ri*j*eka. "K" (in *K*oper) doesn't exist in Italian either. Actually, every city has something non-Italian.  (there are other signs in Italian, except Postumia)



Eleinad said:


> Verso, Verso:
> 
> http://www.autostrade.it/pdf/payment-options.pdf
> 
> Maestro is well accepted.
> 
> Moreover I paied all over the EU with my Maestro Debt Card without any problems.


It says "Blue lanes - self service only with *credit* cards, Viacard *and Maestro Cards*". (as if Maestro cards can also be debit cards, not necessarily credit cards) I don't know, maybe I inserted my card in a wrong way, but I didn't try any more after it said I needed a _credit_ card, and some guy answered the "phone" and told me I needed a "kreditna kartica".  But I didn't talk to him much, cause I didn't understand him of all the noise from trucks anyway. I knew I'd get a paper and be "released" anyway (my mum once tried to pay with her credit card, which expired one day before, and she didn't know it :lol.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
Anyway I got a Maestro credit card and last week in UK some scanners got problems to read it


----------



## Verso

I have a _student_ current account, if that could be the problem, but if not, then I'm clueless.


----------



## pijanec

Maestro cards are always debit cards, never credit.


----------



## Verso

^^ Ok, I'll try again next time; I warned you about the traffic jam I'll cause. :lol:


----------



## pijanec

^^Just put a paper bag on your head. :lol::lol: So you won't be recognized.


----------



## Verso

^^ Beats me, it won't be my fault next time. :lol:



lucaf1 said:


>


I don't think Tarvisio makes much sense without the 'A' oval beside (for Austria), it's too small. I think they should put Udine instead, or even better, put 'A' beside Tarvisio (and 'SLO' beside Trieste).


----------



## Timon91

Or replace Tarvisio with Villach.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> I don't think Tarvisio makes much sense without the 'A' oval beside (for Austria), it's too small. I think they should put Udine instead, or even better, put 'A' beside Tarvisio (and 'SLO' beside Trieste).


That's unfortunately quite common on Italian road signs: they put the indication of the State just few kms before the borders... then you have to know in advance those little towns hundreds kms far on the signs actually are Italian borders, as for Ventimiglia on A-10 for istance


----------



## Timon91

That's weird, because on the A23 they sign both Tarvisio _and_ the "confine di Stato" (the actual border).


----------



## Verso

Timon91 said:


> Or replace Tarvisio with Villach.


Nah, that's a bit over the top to sign Villach already in Venice (240 km away). I'd actually write "Udine (A)", not "Tarvisio (A)". And a dot between Udine and 'A', so you don't think Udine is in Austria.


----------



## x-type

so, lets see how it looks at Sardinia. i won't open new thread because i traveled a lot during the night, so i don't have too many photos. but some 60 of them i will publish. for the beginning - 2 nice views which are so typical for that island. it is somewhere around Castelsardo, i think SP81










Castelsardo


----------



## x-type

i had an apartment in Ossi near Sassari. this is entrance to main expressway SS131 at exit Ossi









and contiunuing to nearby Sassari



























Sassari bypass









2 expressways lead from Sassari to Porto Torres. here they split one from other









SS291 Sassari - Alghero. scooters are not rare at expressways









also, description signs are often. so you can find "fine strada a 4 corsie" or "Sassari a 2 corsie" at direction signs or similar. really often.









view on fabolous Capo Caccia


----------



## x-type

this is SP13m, kind of wide bypass of Castelsardo. do you find name of the tunnel (Elefante) weird? you will see at next photo why that name









because this rock is placed above it 









2km long viaduct Della Piena. somewhere i have a photo of ti from a plane


----------



## Verso

Interesting photos!



x-type said:


>


You may stop on the expressway? :sly:


----------



## x-type

now we're going at SS13 from Sassari to south. expresway somewhere has hard shoulders









typical exit


















it is quite narrow. fortunately, freight traffic is extremely low at whole island.









but when you meet rare trucks at narrow expressway...









they cannot hold the lane, so this happens









i thought that road would be more interesting. it is actually quite boring.


















it has few "ukrainian-styled" U turns. i missed to photograph them 









but it has some T-intersections. speed limit is 50 at those places. at normal exits speed limit is 80, and rest 110 (although i haven't seen single 110 sign)


















service areas are also rare and poor (comparing to those at continental Italy). i saw only one Autogrill. btw, fuel is damn expensive, €1,24 at Agip, but on other stations €1,34-€1,40 









dividing SS597 to Nuoro













































intersection with SS131dc (one part of the mayn Y expressway)


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> In
> 
> You may stop on the expressway? :sly:


made in Italy


----------



## x-type

bridge over lake Omodeo









and from other view point









and one more where you can see old abandoned bridge, too









expressway in direction Nuoro is more interesting. unfortunately, i haven't passed the most interesting part from Nuoro to Olbia.



























at exit Oniferi we continued at SS128 in direction Fonni and tortoli. road is beatiful, i enjoyed driving through those curves fast in rented Fiesta with perfect suspension, so i didn't take many photos of it. here is one









after Fonni i missed turn to expressway in direction Tortoli, so i sontinued on old road over Correboi pass. and i must say - fortunately! views up there are just fabolous! this is at the pass. down you can see expressway which goes under that pass through tunnel


















this is that 2lane expressway. road is very wide, 4 m each lane i'd say (somewhere even wider)


----------



## Timon91

Interesting report of quite an unknown place! :cheers:


----------



## x-type

from Tortoli we took SS125 to north (direction Olbia). that road is definitelya one of the most beatifull roads i have ever driven on! views are breathless, curvy, but in good condition, i just cannot describe it.
here is nice cover, i'd say about 3 km long









where do they find their motives?!









it was sunny and warm...









...but soon we entered into heavy rain, we had to drive 30-40. this is when raind stopped already


















and just 5 minutes after rainy area - this. and rainy area lasted for some maybe 5-8 km




































and for the end of this session - exit from new tunnel at connector road to Cala Gonona









here sun went down, so no more photos. and i must say that this was the best sunset i have ever seen! it was near Dorgali


----------



## x-type

we're back to northwest. this is somewhere around Sassari.









this is entering Sassari bypass


















direction Alghero


















again hard shoulders









intersection SS131-SS125









panorama of Sassari




































exit to Ossi (my apartment  )









very tight










that's it. expressways are not interesting at all, but island is really good and full of various terrains. worth to visit!


----------



## Verso

Ossi - Tissi.  That road on the previous page is breathtaking! :O


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice report!

Sardinia is a bit unknown territory for most, I guess, due to the "remote" nature of the island. 

But the SSC Highway & Autobahn forumers conquer all of Europe!


----------



## keber

In average they look much better than Sicilian autostradas. Looks like not much mafia around.


----------



## lucaf1

intersection A4-A23 dir. Trieste


----------



## The Knowledgeable

The Sardinian photos are fascinating. I've always wanted to see that place.

One thing I don't understand, though. This is the intersection of the Sassari-Cagliari expressway with the road going to Olbia. Can someone please explain why a full cloverleaf is needed? 










Google maps


----------



## PLH

Probably the road was to go further westbound.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> Ossi - Tissi.  That road on the previous page is breathtaking! :O


Baunei - Orosei is really must-see road of every road geek!



ChrisZwolle said:


> But the SSC Highway & Autobahn forumers conquer all of Europe!


:banana:


----------



## Coccodrillo

One of the exits on the *left* side on the A51 near Milano.



It's dangerous, but apparently they are rebuilding them.

http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...61662,9.251953&spn=0.002419,0.004528&t=k&z=18


----------



## x-type

^^
i remember one issue of Gente Motori where they mentioned that exit  (topic were tangenziali in Italiy)


----------



## Slagathor

x-type said:


> service areas are also rare and poor (comparing to those at continental Italy). i saw only one Autogrill. btw, fuel is damn expensive, €1,24 at Agip, but on other stations €1,34-€1,40


lol, anything below 1.35 is cheap in Holland.

Great photos, thanks!


----------



## Eddard Stark

Coccodrillo said:


> One of the exits on the *left* side on the A51 near Milano.
> 
> 
> 
> It's dangerous, but apparently they are rebuilding them.
> 
> http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...61662,9.251953&spn=0.002419,0.004528&t=k&z=18


I confirm it has been already rebuilt, now the exit is on the right.

in my knowledge there are no other left exit in italian highways


----------



## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nice report!
> 
> Sardinia is a bit unknown territory for most, I guess, due to the "remote" nature of the island.
> 
> But the SSC Highway & Autobahn forumers conquer all of Europe!


Actually I am sorry Sardinia is not so well known, it has by far the best sea of the mediterranean sea and some of the most spectacular sceneries of Italyhno:

Of course it's our fault...Sardinia is a very popular destination for italians but untill recently not for foreigners, there has been a boom of low cost lately thought. I suggest everyone to pay a visit, it is well worth it.


----------



## lucaf1

the intersection A4-A23 will be rebuilt by 2014 (for the work of the third lane A4 Venice-Trieste)


----------



## Verso

^^ Not by 2012?

Anyway, does anyone know, if there's any sign in Italy with an 'F' oval (France)? I've seen ovals of all other neighboring countries (except 'V' (Vatican)), but I haven't noticed any 'F'. They should really put it on the A5, you can't sign just "Monte Bianco".


----------



## wyqtor

I didn't see ovals on the Riviera motorway either - only Ventimiglia and (sometimes also) Nizza  .


----------



## x-type

i have passed at least 7 of these "Nizza" signs before i realized that it is actually - Nice :lol:


----------



## TohrAlkimista

x-type said:


> i have passed at least 7 of these "Nizza" signs since i eralized that it is actually - Nice :lol:




Italians are nostalgic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yummie, cookies!


----------



## Eddard Stark

TohrAlkimista said:


> Italians are nostalgic.


Garibaldi would have liked it that way... (he was born in Nizza)


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Eddard Stark said:


> I confirm it has been already rebuilt, now the exit is on the right.


It has been opened since one year at least

Before intervention









After 











> in my knowledge there are no other left exit in italian highways


Mmmmh... unfortunately I think there are other ones, over all in old stretches 

For istance intersection A-10/A-26 from Savona to Milan direction the junction is pratically a left exit with a left entrance in A-26

Also in A8/A9 intersection there is a left entrance coming from Como and directed to Milan: fortunately here they're going to change it in next future


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

x-type said:


> SS291 Sassari - Alghero. scooters are not rare at expressways


Even if they're not allowed... :bash: 
I assume scooters are not rare because Police control is rare

Nice report though


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

x-type said:


> i have passed at least 7 of these "Nizza" signs before i realized that it is actually - Nice :lol:


Recently in Nice they added to all road signs to French word even the 'translation' in old 'Nissardo', the dialect of Nice: kinda a mix of Italian and French (even in France localism seems to be 'trendy')


----------



## wyqtor

^^ Yes, even some streets in the old town have bilingual plates: Rue Centrale / Carriera Centrala. It's some sort of dialect of Occitan I think, but good luck trying to find anyone still speaking it there.


----------



## Eddard Stark

GENIUS LOCI said:


> It has been opened since one year at least
> 
> Before intervention
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mmmmh... unfortunately I think there are other ones, over all in old stretches
> 
> For istance intersection A-10/A-26 from Savona to Milan direction the junction is pratically a left exit with a left entrance in A-26
> 
> Also in A8/A9 intersection there is a left entrance coming from Como and directed to Milan: fortunately here they're going to change it in next future


those are not real "left exits" but more mergers of highways...a real exit on the left (to exit the highway alltogether) was the Linate one but I do not know anyone else.


----------



## Verso

At least on the A8-A9 'confluence' you don't have to move right like on those Ukrainian dual carriageways (of course, if you're slow, you'll have to sooner or later, but not technically necessary).


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
Anyway the junction will be redesigned soon within the works for A9 widening currently under way










Some pics of A9 3d lane construction works http://www3.varesenews.it/gallerie/index.php?id=4699&img=1


----------



## x-type

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Even if they're not allowed... :bash:
> I assume scooters are not rare because Police control is rare
> 
> Nice report though


yes, very rare. although i saw few of them, even on expressways, and it seemed they've been punishing somebody.
btw, last year i saw scooter at A24 in tunnels zone (just after quite long San Rocco, if i remember well) :nuts:


----------



## WalkTheWorld

x-type said:


> yes, very rare. although i saw few of them, even on expressways, and it seemed they've been punishing somebody.
> btw, last year i saw scooter at A24 in tunnels zone (just after quite long San Rocco, if i remember well) :nuts:


If a scooter is at least 150 cc it's perfectly legal to ride it on Auststade. 

The one you pctured is oviously a 50cc, they have different plates I was not aware of any limitations on superstrade. Bycicles and tractors on Tangenziali are ddrlfom seen, well sometimes.


----------



## Verso

WalkTheWorld said:


> I was not aware of any limitations on superstrade.


Of course there are:


Timon91 said:


>


There's a similar sign when you enter e.g. RA17 (Villesse - Gorizia), just without the expressway sign ("blue motorway").


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Verso said:


> Of course there are:There's a similar sign when you enter e.g. RA17 (Villesse - Gorizia), just without the expressway sign ("blue motorway").


Maybe because it's a RA, i.e. going nowhere but to an Autostrada where such vehicles would be banned. Not sure, though, I take your word.

There's not many RA around here nr lonng haul expressways. Just A and Tangenziali.


----------



## lucaf1

keber said:


> Is this pavement made from concrete?


No


----------



## keber

I thought so, but here pictured is the newest part and it looks very bright for just 3 year old asphalt.

Are there any concrete sections anywhere on Italian road network?


----------



## Verso

lucaf1 said:


> The old number RA18 was only of ANAS, while the number of the signals was the SS15. The SS15 was classified as RA because it was a vital link between Italy and Slovenia. But RA wasn't in the signal.


I see. Well, they could call the new expressway "RA18". 

Btw, what does SS 202 *ex* G. V. T. mean? (I know, your pic ) Does "ex" mean the same as in English (former)? If so, why? It's still G. V. T. (Grande Viabilità Triestina), isn't it? (and the sign doesn't look new anyway)


----------



## lucaf1

keber said:


> I thought so, but here pictured is the newest part and it looks very bright for just 3 year old asphalt.
> 
> Are there any concrete sections anywhere on Italian road network?


No, I am sure (99%).



Verso said:


> I see. Well, they could call the new expressway "RA18".
> 
> Btw, what does SS 202 *ex* G. V. T. mean? (I know, your pic ) Does "ex" mean the same as in English (former)? If so, why? It's still G. V. T. (Grande Viabilità Triestina), isn't it? (and the sign doesn't look new anyway)


Until 1997 "sopraelevata (now SS202)" was classified as Grande Viabilità Triestina without number. Grande Viabilità Triestina is still used but as a nickname ( http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Viabilità_Triestina ).


----------



## Verso

^ Thanks. Something like GRA until it was named A90?


----------



## lucaf1

Exactly


----------



## Verso

LOL @ the 'macaroni' tag!


----------



## Coccodrillo

lucaf1 said:


> Example of not numbered road: "Tangenziale di Bologna" is in the signal: "tangenziale" (since 1970...) :lol:
> 
> It's RA1 only for ANAS.


There is also the FI-PI-LI: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strada_di_grande_comunicazione_Firenze-Pisa-Livorno

It hasn't an SS number.

NSA = Nuova Strada Anas = New Anas Road are temporary (but maybe for years...) numbers.


----------



## x-type

FIPILI even has diramazione! how the hell is that called, FIPILI dir.?!


----------



## lucaf1

Coccodrillo said:


> There is also the FI-PI-LI: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strada_di_grande_comunicazione_Firenze-Pisa-Livorno
> 
> It hasn't an SS number.
> 
> NSA = Nuova Strada Anas = New Anas Road are temporary (but maybe for years...) numbers.



Yes, FI-PI-LI is more special than "Tang. Bologna" because has a dedicated (and unique) "number": FI-PI-LI :lol:. Only FI-PI-LI has a symbol with letters.

According to the signals "Tangenziale di Bologna" is "tangenziale" and it hasn't a dedicated symbol but "tangenziale di bologna" has a dedicated number (RA1), even if RA1 doesn't appear in the signal. FI-PI-LI is FI-PI-LI.

NSA is temporary but permanent :lol: . In fact signals ( the road is managed by ANAS ) were installed in Tangenziale di Novara with number NSA88:


----------



## lucaf1

x-type said:


> FIPILI even has diramazione! how the hell is that called, FIPILI dir.?!


I don't know. But it can be called FI-PI-LI too. Example: A57 diramazione aeroporto, ... others: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccordo_autostradale#Diramazioni.2C_bretelle_e_raccordi_autostradali


----------



## lucaf1

Tangenziale (ring) di Treviso










Number: Strada Regionale 53 (SR53)

Category: "Strada extraurbana _*secondaria*_ (categoria C)" even if is a dual carriageway.

Pedestrian, bikes are accepted because there aren't restrictions. 

SR53 on the right:









SR53:

















































No pedestrian on the bridge:


----------



## Reisgek

Here are my Pictures made in Italy this summer.

http://picasaweb.google.nl/reisgek/LamporecchioTotFlorence#
&
http://picasaweb.google.nl/reisgek/FlorenceTotSiena#

Grz


----------



## PLH

Thanks 

Funny how you immediately remind yourself of many of these places.


----------



## Verso

Nice Treviso bypass (not ring ), although boring speed limit.  I'm surprised it has a rest area.



Reisgek said:


> http://picasaweb.google.nl/reisgek/FlorenceTotSiena#


http://picasaweb.google.nl/reisgek/FlorenceTotSiena#5391337554355360338 :crazy:


----------



## lucaf1

Tangenziale (ring) di Padova










*North*
Number: No number only name: _Corso 13 Maggio_

Category: "Strada extraurbana _*principale*_ (categoria B)".



























*South*
Number: Strada Regionale 47 (SR47) and A13.

Name: Corso Boston (in the piece with the number SR47)

Category: "Strada extraurbana _*secondaria*_ (categoria C)" and "autostrada" (categoria A) 










*East*
Number: No number only names: _Corso Primo maggio, Corso Esperanto, Corso Kennedy, Corso Argentina, Corso Irlanda_. _Strada regionale 308_ for a little piece.

Category: "Strada extraurbana _*secondaria*_ (categoria C)" even if is a dual carriageway. For a little piece "strada extraurbana principale (categoria B)"


















































*West*
Number: Strada Regionale 47 (SR47)

Name: Corso Australia

Category: "Strada extraurbana _*secondaria*_ (categoria C)" even if is a dual carriageway.



































Tangenziale (bypass) di Limena










Number: Strada Provinciale 47 (SP47)

Category: "Strada extraurbana _*principale*_ (categoria B)" 



















Special Signal in Padova/Padua:

Berlin, London, ...









:lol::lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

lol, what's up with that last sign? 

SR, another prefix I haven't heard of before. Are they new?


----------



## lucaf1

the fix SR was introduced in 2001. Roads managed by the Region have the fix SR.


----------



## lucaf1

by the way, the signal was installed to celebrate the 
completion of the work (2008) of the ring of Padua (2 km were not 
built) that allow you to go to Berlin & co. only by "autostrade"


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> lol, what's up with that last sign?


Lol indeed, it looks like a usual sign. Anyway, thanks for some more pics of the closest ring to my own city's ring.  If I'm correct, it's about 28 km long. Is all of it 4-laned?


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> lol, what's up with that last sign?
> 
> SR, another prefix I haven't heard of before. Are they new?


Maiontenance and property of some national roads (SS=Strada Statale) have been transferred to the regions in the last ten years, and have thus been renumbered SR (Strada Regionale). Some regions have given them to province (SP=Strada Provinciale) as regions before ~2001 didn't ahd any road. Some roads have maintained their number (SS 225 ==> SP 225 near Genova), other have received stupid signage like "SP ex SS 123" or "SP BS 11" (BS = province of Brescia).


----------



## snowman159

lucaf1 said:


> ... the
> completion of the work (2008) of the ring of Padua (2 km were not
> built) that allow you to go to Berlin & co. only by "autostrade"


I didn't know there were 2km missing. What did they look like? That part was already 2x2, wasn't it? (maybe without shoulder?) And I know you could stay within the tolled autostrade system. I once went from the Barriera di Mestre straight to Napoli. I still remember that because the toll collectors in Napoli happened to be on strike and waved everyone through - that saved me quite some money. Would have been even more, if the A4 around Mestre had been completed.


----------



## x-type

lucaf1 said:


> by the way, the signal was installed to celebrate the
> completion of the work (2008) of the ring of Padua (2 km were not
> built) that allow you to go to Berlin & co. only by "autostrade"


but Beijing?! :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Funny though, that London is closer to Padova than Trapani, an Italian city


----------



## lucaf1

Yes, ring of Padua is all 4-laned (little pieces are 6-laned).

Before 2008 there was a big roundabout (about 2 km). 

Now there is a three-lane overbridge


----------



## lpioe

Lovely bridge

What's the 2nd last city on the funny sign? Trapani or something like that.


----------



## Mauz®

lpioe said:


> Lovely bridge
> 
> What's the 2nd last city on the funny sign? Trapani or something like that.


It's Trapani, a city in western Sicily!


----------



## lpioe

^^ Ok thanks, doesn't quite fit in with the rest of the cities


----------



## Verso

lpioe said:


> ^^ Ok thanks, doesn't quite fit in with the rest of the cities


It does, it's the farthest Italian city reachable on road (with a short ferry to Sicily) and a gateway to Tunisia.


----------



## Federicoft

ChrisZwolle said:


> Funny though, that London is closer to Padova than Trapani, an Italian city


I bet they chose Trapani exactly to show that.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Italy is big. When you're down to Roma, you're still only halfway on the way to Reggio Calabaria!


----------



## Federicoft

Rather, it's long. 
1,833 km between Courmayeur and Mazara del Vallo:


while just 1,750 km between Courmayeur and Glasgow:


----------



## Pfosten

Has someone of you pictures from ligurian higways?
(a10 ventimiglia-savona, a6 savona-torino, a12 genova-rosignano)

or from the a5 and the a27 highway?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Federicoft said:


> Rather, it's long.


But only 200 to 250 km wide below the Padana plain.

http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sour...=42.273244,13.30719&spn=1.369778,3.504639&z=9


----------



## TohrAlkimista

lucaf1 said:


> Special Signal in Padova/Padua:
> 
> Berlin, London, ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol::lol:




That's just a little bit insane...:shifty:


----------



## lucaf1

Pfosten said:


> Has someone of you pictures from ligurian higways?
> (a10 ventimiglia-savona, a6 savona-torino, a12 genova-rosignano)
> 
> or from the a5 and the a27 highway?


by wikipedia and miol and google:

A27

near mestre (venice)








in the mountain:


































A5:


























A10

































































A12

























A4









A10 (old)
























































now:


----------



## TohrAlkimista

*The famous Viaduct on Polcevera (Genova) by Morandi & Cherubini (1960-1967)*:









http://www.flickr.com/photos/govannasantinolli/2450086006/
*
Autostrada A10:*








http://www.flickr.com/photos/govannasantinolli/2464674859/in/set-72157604472827933/


----------



## x-type

those old photos are great!!

could we expect extending A31 and connecting it with A22 somewhere around Rovereto?


----------



## Pfosten

I don't think so!
because the missing part of the a31 would lead through several tunnels or over high bridges and this would be too expensive.
Another reason is the fact that the part of the a22 between trento and verona / raccordo a4 mi-ve would be no longer profitable and this part is the only one, which is profitable for the autostrada del brennero spa.
There would rather be an extension between trento and verona instead of the construction of the missing part of the a31.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> because the missing part of the a31 would lead through several tunnels or over high bridges and this would be too expensive.


Thank God they didn't have this attitude in the 1950's - 1980's. Otherwise Italy would've had very few Autostradas now...


----------



## Pfosten

ChrisZwolle said:


> Thank God they didn't have this attitude in the 1950's - 1980's. Otherwise Italy would've had very few Autostradas now...


that's not right
imagine the variante di valico between firenze and bologna on a1.
a 60 km new autostrada with long tunnels (the longest arround 12km)


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ The longest tunnel of the Variante di Valico is 8,5 km, but there are several other shorter (up to ~3 km).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variante_di_Valico


----------



## Pfosten

oh, that's right
sorry for the wrong information


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> Thank God they didn't have this attitude in the 1950's - 1980's. Otherwise Italy would've had very few Autostradas now...


If at that time they would build autostradas with today's technical standards, they also wouldn't build many.


----------



## JB Colbert

Explain your thought please.

In my opinion we can't compare the actual cost and technic with that in the past.


----------



## keber

In the past technical standards were less costly to implement (compare current A1 between Bologna and Firenze and new Variante del Valico or old A3 vs. new A3). That why were easier to do and it was easier to decide for extensive motorway programme (of course this is true for whole Europe, not just Italy)


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## ChrisZwolle

Also, construction costs of motorways went up much faster than inflation. You can now construct 1 km of standard motorway for the same amount of 4 kms in the 60's and 70's, inflation adjusted.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

ChrisZwolle said:


> Also, construction costs of motorways went up much faster than inflation. You can now construct 1 km of standard motorway for the same amount of 4 kms in the 60's and 70's, inflation adjusted.


And let's not forget constant upgrades that quietly went on and on through the decades. My A22 in the 70's had just a wide grass median with no crash barriers or fog guidance system either ....


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

keber said:


> In the past technical standards were less costly to implement (compare current A1 between Bologna and Firenze and new Variante del Valico or old A3 vs. new A3). That why were easier to do and it was easier to decide for extensive motorway programme (of course this is true for whole Europe, not just Italy)


I don't know... see what happened in last 15/20 years in countries like France or Spain (or what is happening now in East Europe countries)
Till '80s they hadn't wide webs in comparison to other European countries, like Germany or Italy, for istance
They decided to dramatically increase the motorway web in few years investing resources; and they now have diffused webs with 'nowadays' standards

Ok, the nature of their territory didn't oblidge 'em to build as many tunnels and viaducts as Italy did. 

Anyway I think it could be possible to build a web like the current one in Italy with nowadays standards and in relatively few years... if you got the money.
In '60s and '70s Italy spent a large amount of money on road infrastructure.
Now we have a 'monster' debt (partly due to the spending of those years) and find the money for infrastructures is harder


----------



## -Pino-

Guess a good upgrade of a few motorways would be better value for money than that bridge to Sicily.


----------



## Pfosten

-Pino- said:


> Guess a good upgrade of a few motorways would be better value for money than that bridge to Sicily.


for sure.

by the way.
has someone pictures of the e45 between terni and ravenna?


----------



## Timon91

-Pino- said:


> Guess a good upgrade of a few motorways would be better value for money than that bridge to Sicily.


What is the status of that bridge? I thought that Berlusconi wants to build that bridge, or is it still a bridge too far?


----------



## x-type

Pfosten said:


> has someone pictures of the e45 between terni and ravenna?


i have some between Perugia and Todi


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## ChrisZwolle

Timon91 said:


> What is the status of that bridge? I thought that Berlusconi wants to build that bridge, or is it still a bridge too far?


Construction will start in december.


----------



## lucaf1

Number: SR14 (Strada Regionale 14). In the past SS14bis (Strada statale 14 bis)

Name: Via Martiri della Libertà

Category: I dont' know. By the way or "Strada extraurbana secondaria (categoria C)" or "Strada urbana di scorrimento" (categoria D).


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## lucaf1

A4-Passante di Mestre


----------



## Verso

^^ Hard shoulder on the left? I haven't noticed that on the Passante.


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## keber

I did noticed. It's on the short part only and it does not function as proper hard shoulder, at least stopping there is not allowed.


----------



## lucaf1

Verso said:


> ^^ Hard shoulder on the left? I haven't noticed that on the Passante.



It is only in the "trench"


----------



## Coccodrillo

Artificial tunnel on flat terrain are common today (not just in Italy). Just look at the SS 336 motorway to Milan Malpensa airport:

- near a village, but still in the middle of fields
- another tunnel (in this old photo still under construction)
- a beatyful tunnel in the middle of nowhere
- again, again and again...
- here the motorway cuts the town, but without tunnel! the maybe only place on the motorway where a tunnel would have been a good idea, it hasn't been built


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Tokyo has them too


----------



## Coccodrillo

But they are in a built up area, not in the middle of woods and fields. That's different!


----------



## lucaf1

Signal fot FI-PI-LI


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Coccodrillo said:


> Artificial tunnel on flat terrain are common today (not just in Italy). Just look at the SS 336 motorway to Milan Malpensa airport:
> 
> - near a village, but still in the middle of fields
> - another tunnel (in this old photo still under construction)
> - a beatyful tunnel in the middle of nowhere
> - again, again and again...


I agree with you in some way artificial tunnels are kinda trendy: but their justification is due to attenuate environmental impact of new infrastructures...
Then I think (as for Mestre bypass) many of 'em were 'imposed' by local administrations (even if we are in Milan metro area: but there is not a metropolitan figure for the planning, than the subjects involved in single infrastructural projects are dozens)
I agree with you their use is excessive, but, anyway it is not exactly in the middle of nowhere: I think they could be useful (despite the reason they were created) to better link the urban sprawl (which will drive to be a single conurbation as pratically the only 'non-urbanized' -almost- strip you can find overthere is the one where Superstrada runs
In the picture where there is a tunnel in the wood: it is the Ticinum Natural Park nearby Malpensa Airport: they wanted to 'reforest' as possible



> - here the motorway cuts the town, but without tunnel! the maybe only place on the motorway where a tunnel would have been a good idea, it hasn't been built


This part, actually, is the old superstrada which drives to Malpensa from A8 (the other pics are referred to the one wich runs from A4; the two superstrada anyway converge on Malpensa and you could run from one to another without interchanges)
It was opened about 10 years earlier than the other one with different standards: no shoulder and more 'awful' exits
Then to build artificial tunnels was not as 'trendy' as today (infact in many new motorways there is a large use of 'em; for istance Pedemontana). 
To add that when it was built urbanization in that strip was lower, but always very dense though

Anyway there are few artificial tunnels even on that stretch

http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&ie=UTF8&ll=45.643433,8.769836&spn=0.005221,0.013572&t=h&z=17


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
Some pics of the two stretches





































The 'old' one


----------



## WalkTheWorld

I guess the earlier examples of arifical tunnel were those along the Tarvisio -Udine (A27?) Autostrada in the late '80s where real tunnes were joined by some artificial structure that was later buried. . They obtained this way a deep re-naturalization of a few dales that became isolated and wild comparably to what they were 2.000 years ago. Or so I'm told.


----------



## Pfosten

JB Colbert said:


> The construction of A12 between Livorno and Rome could start next year


has somebody current infomations concerning this topic?


----------



## Sonic from Padova

A new modern bridge has been opened to traffic during this week, at Padua.
This bridge connect norther district to city centre a little better that before (maybe!).

Here you can see this bridge:



















On the next week, I'll make some pics of this bridge


----------



## JB Colbert

GENIUS LOCI said:


> I don't know... see what happened in last 15/20 years in countries like France or Spain (or what is happening now in East Europe countries)
> Till '80s they hadn't wide webs in comparison to other European countries, like Germany or Italy, for istance
> They decided to dramatically increase the motorway web in few years investing resources; and they now have diffused webs with 'nowadays' standards
> 
> Ok, the nature of their territory didn't oblidge 'em to build as many tunnels and viaducts as Italy did.
> 
> Anyway I think it could be possible to build a web like the current one in Italy with nowadays standards and in relatively few years... if you got the money.
> In '60s and '70s Italy spent a large amount of money on road infrastructure.
> Now we have a 'monster' debt (partly due to the spending of those years) and find the money for infrastructures is harder



In fact this is the central question, the money.
Don't forget that we are paying our infrastructures with our own money and the Spain is building its Autopistas web with EU money, our money again(F, D, I, NL in primis).
Is very simple in this way...

Italy receive funds from EU as well but we receive less money than what we pay, in fact we are net payer, like German, France and Netherland.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So? There have to be net payers to let the EU work. If all countries would be net receivers, there would be something wrong.. I don't mind my tax euros getting at work in Poland or Estonia.


----------



## JB Colbert

ChrisZwolle said:


> So? There have to be net payers to let the EU work. ...


Is not this the question.
You are comparing Spain and Italy, in my opinion is an uncorrect comparision because, as I told before, we are net payer and Spain isn't.
The correct comparision is between Italy and the other EU net payer as Germany/France/UK/NL and so on.

In conclusion we are paying (for our part) the spaniard Autopistas and, in according with our public debt as told Genious Loci, we are building some infrastructure in our country.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

As far as I know, Spain is currently only a few % away from being a net payer. That used to be different in the 90's though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union#State_by_state_analysis

Spain receives € 49 per capita, the lowest receiver in the EU. Highest receiver is Luxembourg at € 16170? (that can't be right) and the highest payer is - hey - the Netherlands at € - 1467


----------



## JB Colbert

ChrisZwolle said:


> As far as I know, Spain is currently only a few % away from being a net payer. That used to be different in the 90's though.
> ...


Sure, but is still a receiver and of course in the '90 was different, in that years began the construction af Autopistas...



ChrisZwolle said:


> ...and the highest payer is - hey - the Netherlands at € - 1467



I know, but we are the 3rd payer, after Germany and France, regards for total *Money to UE * and for* Ratio of money (Out/In)* :tongue3:


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## Coccodrillo

To enter or exit at Millesimo on the A6 to or from the Savona-Torino carriageway you have to travel a few km on the opposite carriageway:

http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sour...=44.358101,8.197324&spn=0.009865,0.01811&z=16


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> Highest receiver is Luxembourg at € 16170? (that can't be right)


That's because of numeral European institutions, which they have to fund.


----------



## keber

This summer I've traveled over most of Sicilian autostradas, but until now I've presented only A20. Let's continue:*

A29 Palermo - interchange with A29dir (- Mazara del Vallo)*:
This 121 km long motorway is free of charge (owned by ANAS) and probably has the best quality of Sicilian free autostradas (at least older ones). It runs west of Palermo and with A29dir it connects western part of Sicily with Palermo. I've taken pictures until interchange with A29dir at Alcamo (about 60 km).

1 - Still in the Palermo suburbs, going west









2 - landscape is nice, also quality is pretty decent for Sicily









3 - 









4 - Villagrazia di Carini exit









5 - 









6 - Terassini exit









7 - steep walls









8 - motorists are everywhere









9 - more west and away from coast it becomes a bit more flat









10 - provincial border signage









11 - Alcamo-west exit









12 - missing paint









13 - at A29dir interchange









14 - same interchange, going towards Palermo (in the back you can see pretty large viaduct)









15 - 









16 - Palermo suburbs









17 - border between ANAS jurisdiction and city of Palermo, notice change in guardrails and white lines. This is officially end/begin of A29.


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## ChrisZwolle

Cool scenery, reminds me of Tunisia.

By the way, driving so unprotected on a scooter on a motorway can be pretty dangerous when you fall. The asphalt will raze off all your skin.


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## Verso

Spectacular landscape.


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## keber

^^ Wait when you see A19. :naughty:


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## keber

Continuing:

*A29dir Alcamo - Trapani:*
This is a deviation of A29, leading to city of Trapani (37 km) on far west end of Sicily and with a special deviation (which is not specially marked) to Trapani airport (extra 12 km). It is 2x2 without emergency lanes and has relatively low traffic. It leads over relatively easy terrain, but it has a number of unnecessary and very expensive objects.

A map from Wikipedia









1 - Shortly after A29-A29dir interchange a series of very long viaducts begin









2 -









3 - Landscape reminds to that of southern Spain









4 - with eucalypti









5 - and typical Mediterranean cypresses









6 - quality is generally good for Sicily, but with loud expansion joints on objects, when you travel over them









7 - 









8 - Fulgatore exit









9 -









10 - Trapani in background, here ends A29dir (northern branch)









11 - back towards Palermo









12 - a view from the top of Segesta greek theatre









13 - count all the viaducts (in background A29 is seen)









14 - A29dir-A29 interchange on viaducts, left goes to Palermo, right to Mazara de Valle


----------



## keber

(part three)

26 - Ponte Cinque Archi exit:









27 - 









28 - 









29 - again some really nice valleys









30 - A long viaduct before Agrigento/Caltanissetta exit (first 1,7 km is RA19, then SS640):









31 - believe it or not, but this important and big interchange on A19 is very badly signed (probably because viaduct ends right before this sign) and those two signs on the picture are the only marker from Palermo direction to find Agrigento or Caltanissetta, so if you're not prepared to exit here you will miss the exit.









32 - again a series of excessively long viaducts before Enna









33 - Enna city on top of the hill









34 - just before Enna exit









35 - A19 in west direction, taken from Enna castle.









36 - A view from Enna castle towards east, finally Mount Etna is clearly visible


----------



## keber

(part four)

37 - After Enna, landcape becomes flatter, but Mount Etna takes more view









38 - 









39 - traffic is low and there are not many towns around









40 - Snow is still present on Etna even in the middle of July









41 - close to Catania it becomes completely flat









42 - except on a viaduct or two









43 - getting close to interchange with A18 (bypasses Catania) and ending of A19 (which runs straight into Catania)


----------



## 88keys

3naranze said:


> you bet! about 800 millions of euro and 200,000 every year for the maintenance (staff and servicing) of this new 25 km long motorway (free access at present!).
> btw the video with the mountain in the background: it's the cone of etna volcano.


Awesome, by the way the Giro d' Italia is my favorite race, Marco Pantani and Allesandro Pettachi were my favorite racers way back when.


----------



## TohrAlkimista

Thanks for sharing, Keber! 
Your effort to keep this thread up is always great and I guess you have travelled in most of the Italian network...:colgate:


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## keber

^^ At least most of the interesting parts. You just go twice in one year on the vacation (sea and skiing) and you travelled over most important Italian motorways. 
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=49100941&postcount=160.


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## Pfosten

keber said:


> ^^ At least most of the interesting parts. You just go twice in one year on the vacation (sea and skiing) and you travelled over most important Italian motorways.
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=49100941&postcount=160.


do u have a page where u publish ur pictures, because i find them great, too!!


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## Mauz®

Congratulations keber! Always interesting photos!


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## WalkTheWorld

You just stomped all over the damn place, keber! Way to go!


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## DanielFigFoz

3naranze said:


> I'm sorry I lost a figure: that's worth 2,000,000 euro per year!
> S


That is very clever, never seen anything like that before.



keber said:


> (part four)
> 
> [/IMG]


Very nice photos, beautiful landscape.


----------



## gf9

*A21 - Torino-Piacenza-Brescia*











The traffic is very low, but it's a good alternative of A4



















The interchange with A26










The interchange with A1










TAV viaduct





























The last section near Brescia has 3 lanes



















The interchange with A4


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## ChrisZwolle

Nice pics.

The gantry design of Italian overheads are certainly imaginative from time to time!


----------



## da_scotty

They look like belgium, German standard gantry's, and Italian normal gantyrs..

and the first one looks amazing.. but a bit to bulky, but ooohh soo technical


----------



## TohrAlkimista

The A21 from Piacenza to Brescia is my first choice when I have to do long trips, such as going to Austria.

It's comfortable, no traffic, very good road quality.


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## 3naranze

ChrisZwolle said:


> The gantry design of Italian overheads are certainly imaginative from time to time!


...if we were predictable, we would be swiss...:lol:


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## x-type

A21 is very important morotway, it is actually wide bypass of Milano and traveling from direction Verona to Ventimiglia is unimaginable without it! (of course, who likes crowds in Milano, just go on  ) i would probably choose it also for direction Frejus, lenght is almost the same


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## panda80

^^Yes, almost all romanians who go to Spain use it. Without it, probably traffic on Milano tangenziale would have been an inferno.


----------



## Mauz®

x-type said:


> A21 is very important morotway, it is actually wide bypass of Milano and traveling from direction Verona to Ventimiglia is unimaginable without it! (of course, who likes crowds in Milano, just go on  ) i would probably choose it also for direction Frejus, lenght is almost the same


A21 is useful also for people from Milan who want to avoid the Turin ring road!
I used it many times, going to Cuneo or coming from south Turin! 


panda80 said:


> ^^Yes, almost all romanians who go to Spain use it. Without it, probably traffic on Milano tangenziale would have been an inferno.


The "tangenziale" of Milan ALREADY IS an inferno! 
And the worst part is the A4 section!


----------



## snowman159

^^

Heading west on the A4 near Brescia, the overhead sign towards the A21 even lists Torino as a destination.


----------



## x-type

generally speaking, which town's tangenziali are worse for transit traffic, Milano's or Torino's?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

My guess is Milano.

The A4 has 2x3 lanes, and the Torino bypass also has 2x3 lanes, but Milano is a far larger agglomeration.


----------



## Mauz®

snowman159 said:


> ^^
> 
> Heading west on the A4 near Brescia, the overhead sign towards the A21 even lists Torino as a destination.


It's true! The shortest way to reach Torino is following the A4, but sometimes the faster one is to take the A21!


x-type said:


> generally speaking, which town's tangenziali are worse for transit traffic, Milano's or Torino's?


I think Milano's, way bigger agglomeration from which many important highways depart in every direction! Lot of heavy traffic!

But in Turin the "tangenziale" is not a complete circle and this is a big disadvantage too!



ChrisZwolle said:


> My guess is Milano.
> 
> The A4 has 2x3 lanes, and the Torino bypass also has 2x3 lanes, but Milano is a far larger agglomeration.


The Milan section of the A4 is a big problem! Today is totally inadequate for the amount of vehicles driving on it and it's almost impossibile to enlarge it! Every kind of solution for this purpose would be very expensive! :bash:

BTW the new motorway (Pedemontana lombarda) that is going to be built from Dalmine (few kms before Bergamo) to Malpensa Airport will help (a little) in taking some traffic away from the A4!


----------



## TohrAlkimista

With the development of the *Pedemontana* and the *BreBeMi* motorways, I guess we'll face signs of relief around the Milan's area.


----------



## Mauz®

And don't forget the TEM from Melegnano to Agrate!

After those 3 new motorways the problem will be the west! We need a sort of new external "tangenziale" in the western and southern area (from Magenta to Melegnano, via Binasco)...


----------



## Suburbanist

The TEM will do more to relief congestion in the Tangenziale than the BreMeMi or the Pedemontana. Not that those highways are not needed - they are at least 15 years past critical need -, but much of the Tangenziale Est traffic happens because the connections from the populated comuni there with one another are poor. There are a lot of roads coming to Milano (than becoming avenues, boulevards or single streets :S) in a concentric design, but almost no fast connection linking them all. So if you are coming from that region and going to, say, Malpensa, you can choose: (1) negotiate Milan urban traffic; (2) enjoy the traffic jams on the Tangenziale.


----------



## Suburbanist

x-type said:


> generally speaking, which town's tangenziali are worse for transit traffic, Milano's or Torino's?


Milano has far worse "semi-ring road" jams. Although Torino has not a complete "ring", Torino is far less a "highway nod" on the national network like Milano. Apart from those accessing the freeway all the way to Frejus tunnel, you can avoid or bypass Torino in every other major journey. In Milano, it just doesn't happen: you have the A1 coming from Bologna and carrying traffic from from everything southern than it, you have the busy northern connections with Switzerland, you have heavy cross-traffic from industrial areas on the east heading for logistic facilities in the west (like Malpensa Airport), and a city which urban throughfares are far less optimized than Torino's.

BTW, until a couple years ago Bologna had one of the worst bottlonecks in its Tangenziale, before they massively expanded it.

Now, I'm afraid they are taking too long to build a second ring-road in Roma...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The areas north and northwest of Milano are also heavily urbanized, this continues all the way to Lago Maggiore and Lago di Como, that is 40 - 50 km outside central Milano. Not to mention A4 is the only east-west connection in an urbanized area of a few million people. The Provincia di Milano has a population of 3.117.000 and 1,8 million of them live outside the Milano city proper, mostly to the north. 

This is what the area north of Milano looks like:


----------



## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> The areas north and northwest of Milano are also heavily urbanized, this continues all the way to Lago Maggiore and Lago di Como, that is 40 - 50 km outside central Milano. Not to mention A4 is the only east-west connection in an urbanized area of a few million people. The Provincia di Milano has a population of 3.117.000 and 1,8 million of them live outside the Milano city proper, mostly to the north.
> 
> This is what the area north of Milano looks like:


most parts of this is actually outside the Milan province. These areas are part mainly of Monza province, but also Como, Lecco and maybe Varese

The Milan metro area as a whole has 7-8 million people. Only the north accounts for about 5

The picture above will be crossed west-east by the pedemontana, the new highway that will bypass the A4 in the north


----------



## lucaf1

New autostrade: tem, brebemi and a piece of pedemontana:










source: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tracciato_Brebemi.svg

Pedemontana:









source:http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pedemontana_lombarda.svg


----------



## -Pino-

Eddard Stark said:


> The picture above will be crossed west-east by the pedemontana, the new highway that will bypass the A4 in the north


Am I mistaken or are new roads like the Pedemontana, the BreBeMi and the TEM primarily improvements for traffic within the Milan region? For through traffic (say: Gotthard to Rome or Torino to Verona), they don't seem to add a lot. From North to South, you still need to use the Tangenziale Ovest. From East to West, it's still the A4, although the A21 is an alternate for traffic that originates from or goes to Torino.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

But how much traffic will actually drive A21 from end to end? Long-distance traffic is usually grossly overestimated. If the A21 gets 20.000 - 30.000 AADT, maybe 10% of that drives the full length (240 km). So on an A4 that carries (my guess) 150.000 AADT, maybe 2.000 - 3.000 is absorbed by A21.


----------



## Eddard Stark

-Pino- said:


> Am I mistaken or are new roads like the Pedemontana, the BreBeMi and the TEM primarily improvements for traffic within the Milan region? For through traffic (say: Gotthard to Rome or Torino to Verona), they don't seem to add a lot. From North to South, you still need to use the Tangenziale Ovest. From East to West, it's still the A4, although the A21 is an alternate for traffic that originates from or goes to Torino.


the main advantage is the separation of the traffic.

Today A4 and the 3 tangenziali cope both with the metro-area huge traffic (this is almost an american sprawling city) AND with the transit traffic of north Italy. Turin-Venezia, Switzerland-Italy, Genoa-north europe and so on.

*BRE-BE-MI* will create an alternative to A4 for intra-region traffic (and metropolitan traffic) reducing traffic on A4. This highway is U/C

*TEM *will create an alternative to tangenziale est to bypass Milan coming from south and going north, west and easth. And yes, will also cope with the local traffic.

*Pedemontana *is the most interesting: it will basically connect directly the east of the country (and the traffic coming from balkans) to the airport of Malpensa and the highways to go to switzerland. And yes, will cope with the local traffic.

All these new alternatives will contribute to specialize A4 in mainly long-distance traffic rather than the current situation.

Moreover A4 (which is already 1+4+4+1 lanes between Milan and Bergamo) will add a fourth lane between Novara (ok a little before that) and Milan and the hurban stretch of Milan.


----------



## Eddard Stark

lucaf1 said:


> New autostrade: tem, brebemi and a piece of pedemontana:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tracciato_Brebemi.svg
> 
> Pedemontana:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source:http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pedemontana_lombarda.svg


There is a missing project from this map: A52 will be continued untill merging with A8. this will become another alternative to A4 and will complete the ring of tangenziali around Milan.

The street exists already but has to be upgraded.

Work shall start in 2011-2012 and finish before the world expo of 2015

The same date is valid for all the new highways, bar Bre-Be-Mi which shall be ready in 2012


----------



## Coccodrillo

Verona-Torino for Google Maps:
321 km and 3h07 via A21
291 km and 3h16 via A4
GM suggest only the A21, and dont't show the A4, even as alternative.


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> But how much traffic will actually drive A21 from end to end? Long-distance traffic is usually grossly overestimated. If the A21 gets 20.000 - 30.000 AADT, maybe 10% of that drives the full length (240 km). So on an A4 that carries (my guess) 150.000 AADT, maybe 2.000 - 3.000 is absorbed by A21.


i'd say that most of A4's traffic is local traffic or ends in Milano area (and, of course, direction Mont Blanc or northwestern Italy). for traffic ending in Torino (coming from Verona) i wouldn't bet, i still think that A4 also carries more of it than A21. but A21 carries probably 95% of traffic from Verona to Liguria and southern France.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Verona-Susa (on the A32 west of Torino) for Google Maps:
371 km and 3h29 via A21
341 km and 3h41 via A4
Curiously GM doesn't show the A4 option as an alternative, but suggest to use A4+A4/5+A5 (357 km and 3h40). Fear of traffic jams?


----------



## Eddard Stark

edit


----------



## Eddard Stark

Ok this is my first attempt to document a highway...please bear with me.

The highway is one of the most beautiful and scenografic in Italy, probalby in Europe: *A25 Torano-Pescara*, a branch of the highways of Abruzzo connecting Rome to Pescara

We start close to Chieti


hills of the coastal part of Abruzzo


Getting close to the deep valley which connects coastal Abruzzo with inner Abruzzo: the landscape gets wild


Inside the deep valley: a river, a street, a railway, a highway all share the few meters of this gap, the only one in Abruzzo. The first "modern" factory of Abruzzo is hidden here, used to make chemical weapons during WWI


After the gap the landscape broadens again in the valley of Sulmona


We start going up together with the railway...a 19th century marvel. Unfortunately most pictures from now one did not come out...there were very spectacular view  


After a 4 km-long tunnel we get into the valley of Fucino, a former lake first drained by the romans.




Fucino valley and the Sirente mountain in the back


Celano, a village with a spectacular castle on top








Getting close to my village...


----------



## Eddard Stark

umpf...they come out very small


----------



## Mauz®

Suburbanist said:


> The TEM will do more to relief congestion in the Tangenziale than the BreMeMi or the Pedemontana. Not that those highways are not needed - they are at least 15 years past critical need -, but much of the Tangenziale Est traffic happens because the connections from the populated comuni there with one another are poor. There are a lot of roads coming to Milano (than becoming avenues, boulevards or single streets :S) in a concentric design, but almost no fast connection linking them all. So if you are coming from that region and going to, say, Malpensa, you can choose: (1) negotiate Milan urban traffic; (2) enjoy the traffic jams on the Tangenziale.


I agree with you! I think the TEM has almost the same importance of Pedemontana!

All the traffic coming from South and going towards East (and viceversa) will take it, instead of going on the old "tangenziale est"! And the same is for Pedemontana: all the traffic coming from East ang going toward North (and viceversa) will take it, instead of going on the urban stretch of A4!

Both TEM and Pedemontana will have the function of bypassing Milan!
For the same purpose it's very important to begin to project an external bypass also in the western/southern part of Milan, in order to direct on it all the traffic coming from West and going towards South (and viceversa)... 


Suburbanist said:


> BTW, until a couple years ago Bologna had one of the worst bottlonecks in its Tangenziale, before they massively expanded it.


How many hours I lost in the old "tangenziale" of Bologna! :bash: In the past I had to pass there (2 times: going and returning) almost once a week! Terrible! hno:
The upgrade was one of the most useful things done in Italy in recent years!


ChrisZwolle said:


> The areas north and northwest of Milano are also heavily urbanized, this continues all the way to Lago Maggiore and Lago di Como, that is 40 - 50 km outside central Milano. Not to mention A4 is the only east-west connection in an urbanized area of a few million people. The Provincia di Milano has a population of 3.117.000 and 1,8 million of them live outside the Milano city proper, mostly to the north.
> 
> This is what the area north of Milano looks like:
> http://i49.tinypic.com/j7wbvs.jpg


Be careful reading datas... the area surrounding Milan is splitted in a lot of provinces, so many people depending on Milan don't appear in the province amount!
For example if you go 10 km far from Milan you're already in the province of Monza... a city that in the next years will be connected to Milan by the underground, just to make you figure how strict the link between this two territories is! But despite this the inhabitants of Monza (and surrounding towns) won't figure among the inhabitants of the province of Milan, se be careful with datas, because often they're very undervalued! 


-Pino- said:


> Am I mistaken or are new roads like the Pedemontana, the BreBeMi and the TEM primarily improvements for traffic within the Milan region? For through traffic (say: Gotthard to Rome or Torino to Verona), they don't seem to add a lot. From North to South, you still need to use the Tangenziale Ovest. From East to West, it's still the A4, although the A21 is an alternate for traffic that originates from or goes to Torino.


They will be improvements for both the local and the passing traffic!

Pedemontana will be useful for all those going from east (A4, Bergamo, Brescia) to North (SS36, ss35, A8, A9 Lecco, Como, Varese, Malpensa Airport, Switzerland ecc) and viceversa!
TEM will be useful for all those going from South (A1) to East (A4, BreBeMi)...

Obviously, if you have to go from Bergamo (east) to Novara (west), you will have to take the Milan stretch of A4, and this is a problem! But theorically it should be a bit less congested if all people going from east to north take the Pedemontana! Moreover, another projected motorway is the "tangenziale Nord", from Monza to Rho (new fair of Milan)... This motorway already exists, and runs almost parallel to the A4, serving the local traffic!

It "only needs to be upgraded and completed in some short parts, because today is divided in two sections:
-tangenziale nord (modern, high quality/safety motorway, 1+2+2+1) from Monza (interchange with A4) to Paderno Dugnano (interchange with SS35);
-SP 46 (old, low quality/safety motorway 1+2+2+1) from Paderno Dugnano (interchange with SS35) to Bollate (where it ends with a roundabout, became a 1+1 road for few meters, than another roundaboud and then become the bypass of the new fair of Milan (totally modern, wide, high quality/safety 1+2+2+1 / 1+3+3+1 motorway)!

The "only" need is to create a direct link between the "tangenziale nord" and the SP 46 (nowaday you have to drive a bunch of metres on the SS35 if you want to go from tang. Nord to SP 46), upgrade the SP46 (about 4/5 kilometers) to a high quality/safety standard and complete it creating a direct link to the new fair bypass...


----------



## Mauz®

Eddard Stark said:


> umpf...they come out very small


Non ti preoccupare, grazie mille per le foto!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Eddard Stark said:


> umpf...they come out very small


You need to use the "hotlink" link, not the thumbnail, but only if the size is reasonable (several pics of 1600px wide are usually not very much appreciated because they are too large)


----------



## lucaf1

A14 + RA1-Tangenziale Bologna










(C)


----------



## lucaf1

The only (?) escape lane in Italy:

A18dir


----------



## lucaf1

RA1 Tangenziale di Bologna (autostrada) managed by Autostrade per l'Italia









RA2 Salerno Avellino (autostrada) managed by ANAS









RA3 Firenze Siena (strada extraurbana secondaria even if dual carriageway) managed by ANAS

















RA4 di Reggio Calabria (strada extraurbana principale) managed by ANAS









RA5 Sicignano (A3)-Potenza (autostrada) managed by ANAS


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## lucaf1

RA6 Bettolle (A1) -Perugia managed by Anas

Bettolle (A1)-Tuoro: _extraurbana secondaria_ even if dual carriageway









Tuoro-Perugia: _extraurbana principale_









RA8 Ferrara - Mare (autostrada) managed by ANAS








(C) Luca Fascia

RA9 A16 - Benevento (autostrada) managed by ANAS









RA10 Torino - A55 - Aeroporto (autostrada) managed by ANAS with exit numbers


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## keber

From my ski vacation, just two pictures:
A4 in direction of Milano with huge antinoise barriers: 









Otherwise, I rather travel over A4 during weekends, it is still much more interesting motorway than A21. On workdays during rushhours I would rather choose A21 if going to Torino or beyond, however most transit goes north to Mont Blanc tunnel and not Frejus. A32 does not seem to be much travelled motorway except close to Torino.

Frejus tunnel entrance in Bardonecchia (I) with pretty complicated Bardonecchia junction:









Also wondering, are there any plans to make transition between A4 from Milano and Torino tangenziale (See Google Maps) more logical in terms of leading traffic flows and less complicated?


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## Mateusz

Wow this RA8 road has a rather low standard...


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## lucaf1

Mateusz said:


> Wow this RA8 road has a rather low standard...


Yes :bash:

By the way there is a project of rebuild the RA8.

















(C) Luca Fascia


----------



## lucaf1

RA12 Chieti Pescara (autostrada) managed by ANAS








(C) Google Street View

RA13 A4-Trieste (autostrada) managed by ANAS








(C)Luca Fascia

RA14 RA13-Fernetti (autostrada) managed by ANAS
















(C) Luca Fascia

RA15 Tangenziale di Catania (autostrada) managed by ANAS








(C) Google Street View

RA16 A28 - Fiume Veneto (maybe strada extraurbana secondaria) managed by "Friuli Venezia Giulia S.p.A." (a company of the Region)

RA16 is a piece of a never builded autostrada.

















(c) Luca Fascia

RA17 A4 -Slovenia (maybe strada extraurbana secondaria) managed by Autovie Venete. RA17 will be autostrada (2014).
















(C) Luca Fascia

A53/RA7 A7-A54 (autostrada with old standard) managed by Milano Serravalle - Milano Tangenziale. RA7/A53 will be autostrada with modern standard (2013)








(C) Google Street View


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## TohrAlkimista

Uhm, that is my RA!


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

ChrisZwolle said:


> The areas north and northwest of Milano are also heavily urbanized, this continues all the way to Lago Maggiore and Lago di Como, that is 40 - 50 km outside central Milano. Not to mention A4 is the only east-west connection in an urbanized area of a few million people. The Provincia di Milano has a population of 3.117.000 and 1,8 million of them live outside the Milano city proper, mostly to the north.
> 
> This is what the area north of Milano looks like:


As Eddard said Milan's metro area is about 7/8 mio people (about your figure of Milan's province: the datus is the province without the territory of the new Province of Monza, born in 2009 - a nonsense: being conurbated with Milan, but Italian politics work that way :bash: - 
The old province of Milan (which had more or less the size of Greater London) got about 4 mio inhabitants. One of the densest part of it (a piece of northern Milan province) became Monza province, and it is exactly the area you posted

Anyway: in a radium of 60 km from Milan's city center there are 7.5 mio people livin'; mostly on Northern part, bewtween Bergamo and Varese

All this territory has even a huge presence of industrial settlements which add heavy traffic to commuters one (commuters who do not commute just on Milan but all over this territory)
The problem is the lack of East-West infrastructures (not just motoways: even 'simple' roads and rails): Pedemontana will be very usefull, but I think it will be not enough... infact someone is thinkin' to build a second East West motorway: a direct link between Bergamo and Como

_Northern Milan between Bergamo and Varese_


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## keber

Are there any plans for widening A4 through Milano between A50 and A51 or at least some upgrade, like adding emergency lanes?


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## ChrisZwolle

That would be problematic:


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## keber

That is only on some shorter parts. I think it is doable, although costly. Rearranging interchanges and junctions would also help considerably. I don't see much point in widening A4 to 4+4 on sections Milano-Novarra and Milano-Bergamo-Brescia without widening connecting and most problematic section.


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## ChrisZwolle

There are a lot of properties in the way of a possible right-of-way for a serious widening. I think, if you are gonna widen this section at a high cost, I would widen it immediately to 12 lanes: 4x3 with a local/express setup.

East of A52 and west of A8 would be easier, but the main problem is between. I agree with you this section should have a serious priority. Acquiring a right-of-way for a parallel motorway further north would also mean a huge amount of eminent domain and subsequent high cost.


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## lucaf1

Tangenziale sud di Vicenza (no number) managed by "Autostrada Brescia-Verona-Vicenza-Padova" with exit numbers. Strada extraurbana principale. 








(c) google street view

Tangenziale est di Verona (no number) managed by "Autostrada Brescia-Verona-Vicenza-Padova". Strada extraurbana principale. 








(c) google street view


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## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> East of A52


That is already done (pictured by me on previous page).


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## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are a lot of properties in the way of a possible right-of-way for a serious widening. I think, if you are gonna widen this section at a high cost, I would widen it immediately to 12 lanes: 4x3 with a local/express setup.
> 
> East of A52 and west of A8 would be easier, but the main problem is between. I agree with you this section should have a serious priority. Acquiring a right-of-way for a parallel motorway further north would also mean a huge amount of eminent domain and subsequent high cost.


the project is to transform the emergency lane into a "dynamic" fourth lane as don in Bologna bypass

It shall be doable without too many troubles. The only problem is where the exit of Sesto San Giovanni is (the picture above)

Consider however that we will have 2 alternatives north of A4 in a matter of years: tangenziale north (which will be completed) and pedemontana. THat shall reduce the traffic on the hurban stretch of A4 considerably, as people coming from east and south will not use it anymore to go towards Malpensa/Switzerland/north of Milan


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## GENIUS LOCI

Eddard Stark said:


> the project is to transform the emergency lane into a "dynamic" fourth lane as don in Bologna bypass
> 
> It shall be doable without too many troubles. The only problem is where the exit of Sesto San Giovanni is (the picture above)


Actually that is Cormano

That's Sesto San Giovanni










For the so called urban stretch of A4 there was even the proposal in the past to build a tunnel or a second motorway over the old stretch (as the _secundo piso_ on Mexico City bypass)
Too much expensive and, regarding the viaduct proposal, with a huge impact on the environment, as thousands people live too close to the motorway... anyway those proposal remained just simple ideas, not serious projects


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## Eddard Stark

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Actually that is Cormano
> 
> That's Sesto San Giovanni
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the so called urban stretch of A4 there was even the proposal in the past to build a tunnel or a second motorway over the old stretch (as the _secundo piso_ on Mexico City bypass)
> Too much expensive and, regarding the viaduct proposal, with a huge impact on the environment, as thousands people live too close to the motorway... anyway those proposal remained just simple ideas, not serious projects


sorry my mistake:bash::bash::bash:

Anyway from pictures you can see that most of the times the emergency lane is already there: widening it to become a "dynamic" fourth lane shouldn't be a huge problem. 

The ecception being the place above: Sesto S.Giovanni is a mess. I do not know how to solve it.


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## keber

Eddard Stark said:


> The ecception being the place above: Sesto S.Giovanni is a mess. I do not know how to solve it.


More efficient intersections with Viale Brianza (that is, without roundabouts) north of A4 would surely help. I was surprised to see traffic jams, reaching far onto A4 even on Saturday evening (5 days ago) and it was clear that there are problems getting onto city streets.


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## Eddard Stark

keber said:


> More efficient intersections with Viale Brianza (that is, without roundabouts) north of A4 would surely help. I was surprised to see traffic jams, reaching far onto A4 even on Saturday evening (5 days ago) and it was clear that there are problems getting onto city streets.


Well..you know Milan very well. I happen to work on top of that exit of the highway. The new tunnel is U/C. Give me a minute and I will post it here.


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## Eddard Stark

Here it is. The new tunnel and junction (which will create a free-flow communication between the A4 and the SS36 - a superstrada) has been U/C for a year now. Construction is well under way, probably another 2 years before being completed



Mauz® said:


> Ho fatto un salto sul sito www.statale36.it per vedere se effettivamente era cambiatoqualcosa al suo interno e ho trovato qualcosina in effetti!! Ancora poca roba, ma è pur sempre qualcosa...
> 
> *La galleria di Monza*
> _L’opera in progetto di maggior rilievo è la costruzione della galleria artificiale che si svilupperà al di sotto dell’attuale viale Lombardia. A lavori ultimati l’opera in argomento sarà il tunnel urbano più lungo d’Italia. Questa opera porterà ad una riqualificazione territoriale della zona, in quanto separerà la viabilità urbana, che rimarrà in superficie, da quella autostradale, che correrà in sotterraneo, riducendo fortemente gli attuali livelli di traffico. La sezione stradale adottata prevede tre corsie per ciascun senso di marcia, disposte in due vani separati aventi sezione rettangolare. Saranno previste inoltre all’interno della galleria piazzole di sosta e uscite di emergenza per garantire la sicurezza degli utenti. _
> 
> *La sistemazione di viale Brianza*
> _Il tratto della S.S. 36 nel Comune di Cinisello Balsamo è denominato viale Brianza. La riqualificazione di questa zona prevede la rimozione delle intersezioni semaforizzate di via De Vizzi – Casignolo e di via Matteotti – Cornaggia, dove saranno realizzati appositi sottopassi stradali. Verranno inoltre adeguate e migliorate tutte le immissioni delle strade secondarie sulla statale 36, anche attraverso la realizzazione di apposite controstrade. _
> 
> *Lo svincolo di Cinisello Balsamo con l'autostrada A4*
> _Il progetto dello svincolo di Cinisello Balsamo ha come scopo principale quello di separare le sedi stradali, così da poter dividere i flussi di traffico principale extraurbano, verso l’autostrada A4, da quello locale di Cinisello Balsamo. L’attuale sistema di svincolo, infatti, è del tutto insufficiente a smaltire l'ingente volume di traffico generato dalla sovrapposizione delle diverse tipologie di spostamenti.
> LA NUOVA ROTATORIA GRACCHI
> La rotatoria all’altezza di via Gracchi, destinata a smistare il traffico locale per Cinisello e per i centri commerciali, verrà ingrandita e sovrappasserà un tratto del raccordo con la A4 tramite la realizzazione di una galleria artificiale.
> SVINCOLO DI CINISELLO BALSAMO LATO OVEST
> Sul lato ovest dello svincolo verrà realizzato un nuovo tratto, volto a gestire il traffico locale separandolo da quello autostradale, che invece passerà al di sotto della nuova rotatoria Gracchi e si andrà a raccordare più avanti con lo svincolo esistente sulla A4.
> 
> Dal punto di vista dell’inserimento ambientale, risulta ridotto al minimo “l’effetto barriera”, non vi sono rilevanti opere strutturali in elevazione ed è prevista la riqualificazione morfologica ed ambientale dei siti interessati mediante:
> 
> la sistemazione a verde delle aree intercluse;
> -l’interposizione fra le diverse rampe di alberature (aventi anche funzione di barriere antiabbagliamento);
> -l’ubicazione di barriere antirumore a protezione delle abitazioni.
> _
> 
> Oltre all'immagine ormai nota e stranota ho trovato qualche altro rendering e diverse spiegazioni su come intendono agire...
> Ecco qui i rendering...
> 
> Quello già noto del tunnel sotto viale lombardia, a monza:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Planimetria di come verrà sistemato il collegamento con l'A4 in modo da suddividere il traffico locale in maniera più efficiente:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rendering di una parte della nuova viabilità tra ss36 e A4:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sistemazione della rotatoria Gracchi:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Galleria artificiale che verrà scavata SOTTO la rotatoria Gracchi risistemata:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Per tutto il resto (confronti tra rendering e stato attuale, opere impiantistiche, collettore fognario, ecc...) guardate il sito... Manca ancora un po' di roba, ma promette bene...
> 
> *>> CRONOPROGRAMMA (PDF) <<*
> *>> PLANIMETRIA GENERALE (PDF) <<*
> *>> PIANTINA DELL'INTERVENTO (PDF) <<
> *


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

keber said:


> More efficient intersections with Viale Brianza (that is, without roundabouts) north of A4 would surely help. I was surprised to see traffic jams, reaching far onto A4 even on Saturday evening (5 days ago) and it was clear that there are problems getting onto city streets.


This is a scheme with the way they are gonna to modify it with no intersection (part of the project of the construction of the tunnel for SS36 in Monza stretch, currently under way)










Anyway a dynamic lane on A4 had to intervene directly on west acceleration and deceleration lane. And Eddard was right by saying it is the most difficult part of the project since there is no space

EDIT
I see now Eddard's reply.....


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## Coccodrillo

The tunnel will be here, between the two points: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sour....576862,9.2483&spn=0.020246,0.038409&t=k&z=15

"_Nuovo collettore alto Lambro_" is a water tunnel that is being bored with the road tunnel. The other blue lines are new or upgraded roads.


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## Eddard Stark

Here it is again...A25 from Pescara to Magliano (almost entire length). It's very spectacular, unfortunately when I took these pictures the weather was horrible...anyway I hope you like them


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## ChrisZwolle

Your pics would be much better off at 50% of the current size


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## Uyncior

Are the italian motorways expensive? How much do you pay for 100 km?


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## ChrisZwolle

For example: A1 Milano - Bologna 220 km, € 12,30 toll.


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## Suburbanist

Chris, that is for a plain stretch, no tunnel, no major special works etc. A different example here:

French border - La Spezia (e.g., travelling along the coast) - 259km - € 24,50


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## keber

Its about 0,05 € per km on flat terrain and about 0,08-0,10 € per km on hilly terrain and about 0,15 € per km on mountanious terrain. That's general approximation.


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## Pfosten

keber said:


> Its about 0,05 € per km on flat terrain and about 0,08-0,10 € per km on hilly terrain and about 0,15 € per km on mountanious terrain. That's general approximation.


normaly it depends on the company
in my eyes the cheapest one in italy is the autostrade per'l italia
the most expensive ones are the autostrada del brennero (a22 brennero-modena) and the autostrada dei fiori spa between savona and ventimiglia.


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## lucaf1

Axx - km - € - €cent/km










(c) Quattroruote febbraio 2010 n° 652


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## Fab87

TANGENZIALE EST- verona 
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangenziale_Est_di_Verona
No classification/numeration

You can see the Prealps on the background
Video (during a hailstorm)


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## -Pino-

Few pictures from the last couple of weeks. See Panoramio for full size and exact locations.

*Leaving Milan on the A8 (Milano - Varese)*




































*A32 Traforo de Frejus - Torino*












































































































*A4 Torino - Milano*


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## TohrAlkimista

Thank you for sharing! 

What trip did you do?


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## -Pino-

A32 and A4 were the return from a ski trip to Sauze d'Oulx. A8 was the week before, outbound to Como. More trips from Milan upcoming !

EDIT: like these ones of today: Milano to Verona via the A4. Full format here.


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## Suburbanist

*Ancona to Reggio Calabria*

Here are some pics I've taken last summer, while driving from Ancona to Reggio Calabria. I took a lot of detours from the main natural route, specially in the Sila National Park region.

A25 near Popoli (yes, I've got an strange direction)




SS17













SS161 near Montecorice








This is not any ancient building, but a derelict "Casa Cantonera", old maintenance outposts that once were used by resident workers to keep Italians road passable and so.








Very famous viaduct in Catanzaro


SS-106 (Jonica) - it will be upgraded to 2X2 non-freeway sometime in the next 6 years.


SS-682, a "superstrada" -freeway-like 2 lane roads (tunnels, controlled access etc., connecting Marina di Gioiosa Ionica to Rosarno (A3 junction)




Provincial road in Monti Sibilini


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## Eddard Stark

ING said:


> ed ecco a voi il *Viadotto Favazzina* :banana::banana::banana:


Absolutely gorgeous pictures of A3 re-construction by forumer ING!


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## lucaf1

A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria













(C) @ http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=925700&page=9#post53926751


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## ChrisZwolle

The "tutor" section control is operational on many Italian Autostrades, so I'd keep to the speed limit if I were you. Besides that, 130 km/h is a very reasonable speed limit.


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## and802

ChrisZwolle said:


> The "tutor" section control is operational on many Italian Autostrades ...


Chris, could you explain what "tutor" section control is ?


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## ChrisZwolle

It measures your average speed over long distances. The Netherlands and Austria also use it to enforce 80 km/h limits on motorways, but Italy uses it on 130 km/h motorways. Approximately 2.500 kilometer of Autostrada is equipped with the "tutor", also called "SICVE" and "SPECS".


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## lucaf1

autostrade with tutor:

http://www.sciretti.it/uploaded_images/Tutor-copia-741759.jpg
http://www.autostrade.it/assistenza-al-traffico/tutor.html

cameras are also on the emergency lane. If you go, you draw police attention (the offense is serious).

autostrade with stationary speed traps:









http://www.autostrade.it/assistenza-al-traffico/controllo-velocita.html?initPosAra=3_4


----------



## and802

Chris, Lucaf1

many, many thanks


----------



## Eddard Stark

Coccodrillo said:


> The A9 is already under construction towards the pass road, with opening planned in 2015.


I honestly did not know it, are you sure?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Yes, I'm sure. See http://www.a9-vs.ch/.


----------



## Slagathor

and802 said:


> good day collegues,
> 
> this weekend I will be visiting Italy for my first time.
> 
> what is the safe speed I can do on Italian highways not to be caught by police ?
> 
> I understand that the speed limit is 130 km/h, but what if I keep 150 km/h ? will I draw police attention ?
> 
> 
> what it the most common speed check-points ? non-marked police cars or stationary speed traps ?


You're visiting a country for the first time, you're a guest in these people's land, would it be so horrible to obey their laws and stick to 130km/h?


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> It measures your average speed over long distances. The Netherlands and Austria also use it to enforce 80 km/h limits on motorways, but Italy uses it on 130 km/h motorways. Approximately 2.500 kilometer of Autostrada is equipped with the "tutor", also called "SICVE" and "SPECS".


I saw some copies of that sign on some "autostrade". A13, for example... (But i can't remember very well)


----------



## nerdly_dood

In more populated areas of America if you do 150 km/h (93 MPH) you will certainly be pulled over, and in less populated areas it's still very likely. Speed limits across much of the eastern regions are the equivalent of 105 km/hr (65 MPH) along most Interstate highways, with a handful of Eastern states using a maximum speed of 115 km/hr (70 mph). Speed limits are often 90 (55) in more congested areas. In less populated areas out West, speed limits are often the equivalent of 120 km/hr (75 mph), and very rarely up to 130 (80)

Generally I just don't bother wondering if the speed I'm driving will get me pulled over, and just drive the speed limit, or maybe 3 MPH over.

(And yes, the vast majority of American speed limits are on the 5s - 25, 35, 45, 55, 65.)


----------



## Suburbanist

*Tutor, honest and effective speed control*

I love the Tutor. Let me explain: fixed speed traps, unless related to a specific occurrence like a pedestrian crossing (something that doesn't exist in a highway...) or an unusual sharp curve, are relatively ineffective - people know where they are, feed info in GPS (newer models allows for - illegal - GSM-based dynamic feed of traffic info by drivers, including roadblocks/mobile speed traps).

The Tutor, in other hand, measures average speed over a longer stretch of route (1, 2, 5, 10 and - more rarely 15km). They have OCR reading plates at the beginning and end of the sector, and then they calculate average speed.

They can be used only in stretches where the legal speed is uniform. Alone, Tutor accounted for more than 52% in fatality rate reduction in the main axes: A1/A14/A4.

The effect is that, congestion absent, you see traffic flowing almost at a stationary way in relation to the lanes in your side.


----------



## -Pino-

CNGL said:


> Yeah, but with an extension of the swiss A9 it would create a more direct corridor from Milan to Northwestern Europe


Not really. From the Benelux countries and Germany, there is no shorter route than via the Gotthard. Depending on your point of origin in Germany, a more easterly Alpes crossing may be appropriate (typically San Bernardino), but it will never be the Simplon. Briefly put, if your route comes anywhere close to Basel, you would take the Gotthard route and the Simplon does not even come close. The Simplon has always been an East-West route more than a North-South route, a connector between France and Italy more than one to Germany. But that function has become pretty much obsolete in road traffic with the construction of the Mont Blanc tunnel (unlike in rail traffic, where the Simplon is still very important because there is no railway tunnel north of Frejus).

While the Simplon route was given the nice European road number E62, it is actually a pass route that is very poorly tied into the European road network. The Italian side of things is alright, but the Simplon road is poorly connected to France. You would either have to follow the Swiss A9/A1 until Geneva or take a non-motorway from Lausanne to Dijon. If you are in Geneva, the Mont Blanc tunnel would beat a Simplon tunnel easily en route to Milan (for that reason, the route followed by the E62 is a very poor call in the E-numbering system). And an upgrade of the Lausanne - Dijon route would be an expensive project for a shortcut of maybe 30 kilometers to Paris or Calais. Not an interesting investment, I would say.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Milan-Paris

Mont Blanc, 851 km, 8h14min
Gotthard, 909 km, 8h33min
Fréjus, 907 km, 8h43min
Simplon 823 km, 9h20min (today without A9 and with the train shuttle)
Simplon 853 km, 9h23min (today without A9 and via the Pass)

For ViaMichelin the toll is 100 € via the Mont Blanc, 22 € + 28 € swiss vignette via the Gotthard.


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Milan-Paris
> 
> Mont Blanc, 851 km, 8h14min
> Gotthard, 909 km, 8h33min
> Fréjus, 907 km, 8h43min
> Simplon 823 km, 9h20min (today without A9 and with the train shuttle)
> Simplon 853 km, 9h23min (today without A9 and via the Pass)
> 
> For ViaMichelin the toll is 100 € via the Mont Blanc, 22 € + 28 € swiss vignette via the Gotthard.


Don't forget:

St. Bernard, 847 km, 9h02min

Why people usually don't give a damn to St. Bernard tunnel? I'm not complaining about you, it is just that I take a pity this transalpine route is usually neglected.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Great St. Bernard is an additional toll tunnel (one of the few, or even the only in Switzerland), and generally outside main transit routes, and the Simplon has a better alignment for heavy traffic. I don't think the St. Bernard serves more than a regional function. It's quite expensive at € 20,80 for a passenger car. The Great St. Bernard tunnel portals are only slightly lower than the Simplon pass, so there isn't much gain in altitude difference either.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Great St. Bernard is as slow as the Simplon pass but it is tolled. If one wants to pay, then he choose the fastest route, the Mont Blanc. If one wants to save money from tolls, choose the Simplon, if one doesn't want to drive, takes the shuttle for 13 euro.



ChrisZwolle said:


> toll tunnel (one of the few, or even the only in Switzerland)


I know only the Munt la Schera tunnel and the train shuttles.


----------



## CNGL

Please we can go back to topic?

Well, when I made the trip to Italy, I saw A1 reconstruction between Florence and Bologna. And I liked the tolls, you enter to the autostrada and you pay only when you gets off regardless of the number of autostrade you taken. We made a run from Ventimiglia to Pisa North, and another from Verona to Leghorn (Livorno).



lucaf1 said:


> Axx - km - € - €cent/km
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (c) Quattroruote febbraio 2010 n° 652


A32 between Torino and Bardonecchia the most expensive autostrada? Try to beat this: A1 between Calenzano and Florence North, €0.60 for a kilometer!!! (And for a bus, I don't know for a car)
And I passed through 3 of the top 5 expensive autostrade, namely A10, A12 and A15.


----------



## -Pino-

According to autostrade.it, the 2 kilometers between Sesto Fiorentino and Firenze Nord are actually free of charge for ordinary cars, so using a bus figure is not representative. Speaking of toll roads, I do indeed prefer closed toll systems over open toll system with a toll station every now and then. I think that they are fairer, as everyone pays rather than only the folks who happen to pass the station. A few roads in Italy do have open systems though. The A32 is one of them, the A8 and A9 are two others.

The Grand St. Bernard finally makes sense for traffic to Turin and Piemonte. From Basel, it is still the quickest route in that direction and it would beat the detour via Geneva and the Mont Blanc. But because the tunnel serves only traffic into Piemonte from the North, its role is much smaller than the roles of the other tunnels.


----------



## CNGL

^^ I think you confused A1 with A11. A11 is free of toll east of A1 into Florence, as I know.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ The most expensive car trip one could make in Italy without paying a toll in between (e.g., all withing a closed system) is from Ventimiglia to Taranto via Genova, Livorno, Firenze, Napoli and Bari.

Total: € 77,90
Distance: 1.159km
Route: http://autostrade.it/autostrade/ric...109&dscA=taranto&dtxpA=3933&soloAutostrade=on (OBS: click on "calcolo del pedagio" and a window will show, for any route in Italian autostrade, the exact costs and where you will pay it).

This was not possible until a couple years ago when they finally linked A11 and A12 near Livorno without being necessary to exit and entry a closed system.

Other more expensive routes entirely run on a closed system would be possible if the junctions (or should I say bottlenecks) around Milano (Tangenziale Nord, Ovest ed Este) were not charged as barrier tolls. You can bypass Roma, Napoli e cross around Bologna and (now) Venezia and Firenze, other major highway junctions in Italy, without exiting the closed system, but it is impossible to do that near Milano.

As for me, the longer trip I'd made in a closed system was from Taranto to Milano, it cost € 56 at the time. Nice drive on a cold autumn Sunday, 130 km/h almost all way long (gotta thank the cruise control  ).


----------



## CNGL

CNGL said:


> A32 between Torino and Bardonecchia the most expensive autostrada? Try to beat this: A1 between Calenzano and Florence North, €0.60 for a kilometer!!! (And for a bus, I don't know for a car)


Never mind. If A3 between Naples and Salerno is €1.60 of toll regardless where you enter, where you exit, then the sections Naples South toll plaza-Ponticelli and Portici Bellavista-Ercolano are the most expensive. Both are half kilometer long sections, so the cost per kilometer is... €3.20 :crazy:.


----------



## CNGL

-Pino- said:


> Not really. From the Benelux countries and Germany, there is no shorter route than via the Gotthard. Depending on your point of origin in Germany, a more easterly Alpes crossing may be appropriate (typically San Bernardino), but it will never be the Simplon. Briefly put, if your route comes anywhere close to Basel, you would take the Gotthard route and the Simplon does not even come close. The Simplon has always been an East-West route more than a North-South route, a connector between France and Italy more than one to Germany. But that function has become pretty much obsolete in road traffic with the construction of the Mont Blanc tunnel (unlike in rail traffic, where the Simplon is still very important because there is no railway tunnel north of Frejus).
> 
> While the Simplon route was given the nice European road number E62, it is actually a pass route that is very poorly tied into the European road network. The Italian side of things is alright, but the Simplon road is poorly connected to France. You would either have to follow the Swiss A9/A1 until Geneva or take a non-motorway from Lausanne to Dijon. If you are in Geneva, the Mont Blanc tunnel would beat a Simplon tunnel easily en route to Milan (for that reason, the route followed by the E62 is a very poor call in the E-numbering system). And an upgrade of the Lausanne - Dijon route would be an expensive project for a shortcut of maybe 30 kilometers to Paris or Calais. Not an interesting investment, I would say.


Okay, so I would discard the Simplon tunnel. At least for now.
But I have to see the following autostrade:
A12 all the way from Livorno to Civitavecchia. (But there's a superstrada...)
A31 from Rovigo to Trento (THAT would be an autostrada del Valdastico)
A complete Milan North bypass (North of A52, of course. I would number this A4)
An autostrada from Brescia into Val Trompia (to Lumezzane)
A more direct autostrada from Milan to Bresca (This is U/C, right?)
An autostrada from Parma to Mantova (I would number this A15)
An autostrada from Vicenza to the A27, but I'm seeing they built a section as superstrada.
An autostrada from Cremona to Mantova (A21-A22!)
And of course, an autostrada from Ravenna to Venice, over the route of E55.

And thats all according to http://motorways-exitlists.com, assuming that A33 Asti-Cuneo and A18 to Gela is expected to be completed this year, according to the Italian road map I have.

And a question: T1 is the Mont Blanc tunnel, T2 is the Gran San Bernardo tunnel and T4 is the Fréjus tunnel. The question is: What happened to T3? Is there any plans?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Suburbanist said:


> I love the Tutor.


Tutor is different from other section control devices in Europe. It is usually enforced at a reasonable speed limit (130 km/h) while Tutor-equivalents in other countries (UK, Netherlands, Austria) are used to enforce very low speed limits on motorways (80 or 100 km/h). This is a major difference, I think the general public would be much more likely to accept section control like in Italy, than in the other mentioned countries.


----------



## Coccodrillo

> A31 from Rovigo to Trento (THAT would be an autostrada del Valdastico)


The southern part is is under construction (but I'm not sure if until Rovigo).



> A complete Milan North bypass (North of A52, of course. I would number this A4)


The Pedemontana will connect the A8, A9, SS35, SS36 and A51 (see there), then the A52 may be extended to reach the A4 (the SP46 is already partly 2x2).



> A more direct autostrada from Milan to Bresca (This is U/C, right?)


It is under construction, known as BreBeMi (Brescia-Bergamo-Milano, even if it doesn't pass from Bergamo, but only via its province, and even if it doesn't reach Milan).



> And a question: T1 is the Mont Blanc tunnel, T2 is the Gran San Bernardo tunnel and T4 is the Fréjus tunnel. The question is: What happened to T3? Is there any plans?


T3 was a 2 km tunnel near Genova.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bargagli-Ferriere_Tunnel

This because the "T" is used to design some new roads classified as motorways, and not long tunnels themselves. The T2 is not the Gran San Bernardo tunnel but a road comprising the main tunnel and part of the access road built with it to replace the SS27. As the Mont Blanc and Fréjus tunnels are reached by A5 and A32 there are no roads numbered T1 and T4 other than the tunnels.

http://maps.google.ch/?ie=UTF8&ll=45.836215,7.162571&spn=0.038391,0.072441&z=14

T3 was a 4 km road, 2 km in tunnel, 2 km at ground level.

http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sour...44.437457,9.117537&spn=0.039345,0.072441&z=14


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## lucaf1

Project:

A12 all the way from Livorno to Civitavecchia. 
A31 from Rovigo to Trento 
An autostrada from Brescia into Val Trompia (to Lumezzane)
An autostrada from Parma to Mantova 
An autostrada from Cremona to Mantova (A21-A22!)
an autostrada from Ravenna to Venice, over the route of E55.




> And thats all according to http://motorways-exitlists.com, assuming that A33 Asti-Cuneo and A18 to Gela is expected to be completed this year, according to the Italian road map I have.


No.. More years...



> And a question: T1 is the Mont Blanc tunnel, T2 is the Gran San Bernardo tunnel and T4 is the Fréjus tunnel. The question is: What happened to T3? Is there any plans?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bargagli-Ferriere_Tunnel


----------



## CNGL

I saw construction of A31 towards the South in Vicenza. And it's only until Noventa Vicentina, according to my Italian road map. A18 and A33 have been delayed?
And now I saw the tunnel of the SP(ex-SS)225 near Genoa. That was the T3, as you said. But now there's the A12 South of there... Or A12 was there in 1971? I think no...
150 km/h speed limit? I didn't saw any sign with a 150 km/h limitation. I don't know A26, where are supossed to have these signs...

PS: 90 Vicentina? (Because "noventa" is ninety in Spanish)


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## Coccodrillo

The Bargagli-Ferriere Tunnel was built after the Great Saint Bernard and the Mont Blanc tunnels (T2 and T1 respectively even if the second opened one year later) but before the Fréjus (T4) so it received the number T3. But they choose T3 not because of its importance, but because it was a new road, so it needed a new number. Instead of calling it SS123 or SP456 they decided for T3, probably also because it was tolled. When the route was renumbered SS225 the toll was removed.



CNGL said:


> PS: 90 Vicentina?


If you wonder about the name (novanta with an A means 90), a lot of places have numbers as names, like Quarto d'Altino (quarto=fourth), Quinto (fifth), Sesto San Giovanni (sesto=sixth), Settimo Torinese (settimo=seventh).


----------



## CNGL

So Sesto Fiorentino=Florence's 6th :lol:
Anyway, I would extend the pedemontana lombarda back to A4, and I would give that number. Current A4 could be numbered A58 instead...


----------



## Coccodrillo

The A4 can be reached using the SS336 after the Pedemontana.

The A4 is well known with that number, changing it would only create more confusion.

I would rename A4/5 and A4/26 in something like A34, and amybe also the others "fraction" motorways.


----------



## -Pino-

Agree. If I understand the Pedemontana plans correctly, it is not being constructed as a direct link between the A4 and the A9, but as a series of links between existing roads. Even when extended to return to the A4, the route would be one large TOTSO and therefore not appropriate to be replace the existing A4.

Back with some pictures of the Autostrada dei Laghi (A8, A8dir and A26), all taken today. Pictures at full size and located on the map via Panoramio.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Main stated goal to build the Pedemontana is not to link A9 and A4 themselves, but to provide an artery that would improve regional traffic that, as from today, has to rely on overused and congested roads leading do Milano or to cross built-up areas from the cities, severely disrupting traffic in the region.

It will be a pleasant drive, though, far more than the urban highway cross north of Milano with its substandard junctions and accesses.


----------



## lucaf1

pedemontana (red new road-blu/red upgrade of ss35)









(C) http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pedemontana_lombarda.svg


----------



## -Pino-

Suburbanist said:


> It will be a pleasant drive, though, far more than the urban highway cross north of Milano with its substandard junctions and accesses.


Except for the part of course where the Pedemontana follows the SS35, which is as substandard as can be. Having driven that road two weeks ago, I can't see it upgraded to anything close to a proper motorway.

But well, I do believe in the current strategy around Milan, i.e. leave the international and interregional traffic on the existing arteries, but decongest those arteries by having alternatives for the suburban and regional traffic: Brebemi, Pedemontana, TEM. For each of those, I doubt whether a tourist or international driver will ever get to see them, but the fact that they are being constructed is definitely good news for them.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Only the Pedemontana will be useful for tourists going from the Simplon or the Gotthard to Venice.


----------



## -Pino-

If I was a driver en route from Switzerland to Venice, I'd take the convenience option of following the A8 until Milano Certosa and the A4 from there. One exit only (with the lay-our of Certosa, you could even argue that it's no exit at all when you travel from Switzerland) as opposed to four on the Pedemontana. And no apparent gain in kilometers or time. That being said, if there are reports of congestion on the A4, people will turn off to the Pedemontana. Pretty much the same as people who already know how to use the current SS35 in the event of problems on the A9/A8.


----------



## lucaf1

Because of the financial crisis there will be from tomorrow:



increase of toll on all autostrade (+ € 0.001 per km)


+ € 1 on toll gates linked with some autostrade and RA managed by ANAS:

A90 (toll gates: A1dir Roma Nord, A1dir Fiano Romano, A1dir Roma Sud, A24 Roma Est, A24 Lunghezza, A24 Settecamini, A24 Ponte di Nona)
A91 (toll gate: A12 Roma ovest)
RA2 (toll gates: A16 Avellino est, A30 Salerno-Mercato San Severino)
RA3 (toll gate: A1 Firenze Certosa)
RA6 (toll gate: A1 Valdichiana)
RA8 (toll gate: A13 Ferrara Sud)
RA9 (toll gate: A16 Benevento)
RA10 (toll gates: A55 Settimo Torinese, A55 Falchera, A55 Bruere)
RA11 (toll gate: A14 San Benedetto del Tronto)
RA12 (toll gates: A25 Chieti-Pescara, A14 Pescara Ovest-Chieti)
RA13 (toll gate: A4 Trieste Lisert).

Since 2012, all autostrade and all 14 RA (classified as autostrada, as extraurbana principale or as extraurbana secondaria) managed by ANAS will be tolled with ''free-flow'' system


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## hofburg

lucaf1 said:


> Because of the financial crisis there will be from tomorrow:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RA13 (toll gate: A4 Trieste Lisert).


where is that? down from monfalcone?


----------



## mmmartin

^^
Yes, by Monfalcone (Tržič).


----------



## lucaf1

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Autostrade_Trieste.png


----------



## keber

lucaf1 said:


> Since 2012, all autostrade and all 14 RA (classified as autostrada, as extraurbana principale or as extraurbana secondaria) managed by ANAS will be tolled with ''free-flow'' system


Any more detail about that? 2012 is only 18 months away. Will be satelite, microwave or vignette based?


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## g.spinoza

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Are you referring at my post?
> 
> Actually it is dangerous because coming from A10 in direction Milan you get in A26 on the overtaking lane, after an upward steeped ramp


Ah, yes you're right... I think I got confused in the mess!

That's really a very dangerous way to build intersections...


----------



## JB Colbert

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Are you referring at my post?
> 
> Actually it is dangerous because coming from A10 in direction Milan you get in A26 on the overtaking lane, after an upward steeped ramp


Not exactly.
The lane A10 (coming up from Savona) merging into A26 becomes its third lane, while the A10 coming up from Genoa has two lanes.


----------



## Verso

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Anyway I think it is worse the intersection with A10 and A26 in Genova Voltri
> 
> http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&ie=UTF8&ll=44.434385,8.740922&spn=0.00406,0.010836&t=k&z=17





JB Colbert said:


> Consider the interconnection between A1 and A2 in Switzerland in direction Gottard


I think these interchanges are quite ok, certainly better and less dangerous than the A14×A16.


----------



## g.spinoza

JB Colbert said:


> Consider the interconnection between A1 and A2 in Switzerland in direction Gottard


You mean this?

http://maps.google.it/maps?f=d&sour...18836&sspn=0.006453,0.016512&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=17

I can't see anything wrong here...


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

I also find quite awful this intersection between A8 and A9 in Milan direction http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&ie=UTF8&t=k&ll=45.573986,9.011461&spn=0.00398,0.010836&z=17

Fortunately with the widening of A9 to 3 lanes, currently under way, they will change it building a ramp merging on the right of A8


----------



## JB Colbert

g.spinoza said:


> You mean this?
> 
> http://maps.google.it/maps?f=d&sour...18836&sspn=0.006453,0.016512&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=17
> 
> I can't see anything wrong here...


Just this, yes.
In any case is an interconnection coming from left.
But I agree A14+A16 is more dangerous.


----------



## g.spinoza

JB Colbert said:


> Just this, yes.
> In any case is an interconnection coming from left.


Sorry, where? You mean traffic coming from the right side and from the left side of A1 meeting halfway in the junction?


----------



## JB Colbert

Si che hai capito, su.


----------



## g.spinoza

JB Colbert said:


> Si che hai capito, su.


Honest, I didn't understand. Because there is no junction merging into the autostrada from the left, there's just two low-speed junctions merging... It's quite a bit different...


----------



## Verso

GENIUS LOCI said:


> I also find quite awful this intersection between A8 and A9 in Milan direction http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&ie=UTF8&t=k&ll=45.573986,9.011461&spn=0.00398,0.010836&z=17
> 
> Fortunately with the widening of A9 to 3 lanes, currently under way, they will change it building a ramp merging on the right of A8


Better than this, especially for an important motorway such as the Milan beltway.


----------



## 3naranze

opening soon of the A28 Portogruaro-Conegliano (at present open to Sacile ovest/west exit). some pics of the junction with the A27 at Conegliano.
It will be worth 20 min less to reach Trieste and Gorizia (so Slovenia, etc) from Belluno (dolomitic province)
the new conegliano exit ramp (and exit even towards A28)
































the old Conegliano exit ramp








in the first place the old entry ramp from Conegliano and in the background the new one (exit even towards A27-Venice from A28- Portogruaro)


----------



## Verso

^^ Nice, 20 min less to Belluno. Will there be Trieste on signs or just Pordenone?


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> Better than this, especially for an important motorway such as the Milan beltway.


Actually that's not dangerous as they are two immision ramps merging together (with max speed of 40 km/h): it is an old way to build 'em, and there are other ones similar around Milan. I hope they will 'upgrade' em sooner or later

In A9/A8 you come from A9 normally with a speed of 80 km/h while on your right cars run at 130 (actually many ones more than that speed)


----------



## CNGL

3naranze said:


> opening soon of the A28 Portogruaro-Conegliano (at present open to Sacile ovest/west exit). some pics of the junction with the A27 at Conegliano.
> It will be worth 20 min less to reach Trieste and Gorizia (so Slovenia, etc) from Belluno (dolomitic province)


Nice. One motorway that my map got (partially) right  (But I saw something like opening 200x, with x a low number :nuts.
But now, A26 extension attempt #2: Since that Simplon tunnel would be a waste of money (Only was inspired by the railroad tunnel), now I extend the A26 along SS34 and the shore of the great lake (Lago Maggiore) to Swiss border, where it would meet an extended A13 from Bellinzona... This would be a great bypass of Milan (And no that TOTSO of Pedemontana, that I though it would be more straight),

And I have a map where I drawed an extension of A14 all the way down to... Reggio di Calabria :nuts:.

PS: I just checked Google Earth and that A26 would be :crazy: to build. But they built the A10.


----------



## Coccodrillo

There is no traffic to justify this extension of the A26. But widening the existing road Intra-Locarno would be a good idea. It's really narrow on some places.


----------



## Verso

CNGL said:


> _Last edited by CNGL; February 30th 2003 at 13:00 AM_


:shifty:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

According to Repubblica, new legislation approves a new highway code, which includes a speed limit of 150 km/h on the Autostrade.

http://www.repubblica.it/motori/201...ia_libera_il_senato_approva_la_legge-5888284/


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## Suburbanist

Indeed, there are other modifications, some of them interesting:

- cyclists will be obliged to wear helmets all the time (something I STRONGLY favor)

- drivers holding licenses for less than 3 years ("neopatentati") and professional drivers will have zero tolerance for alcohol on the blood

- increased penalties for professional drivers who exceed their maximum allowed working hours (sequential, cumulative in a time frame, mandatory rest)

- fines for excessive speed are increased, but license points taken are sharply reduced (5 to 3 points for exceeding from 10km to 40km the maximum posting speed + 5%, for instance)

- anti-drug test for first-time drivers (to be implemented) and for those renewing or applying for professional licenses

- clubs will be restricted from selling alcohol after 3AM, exceptions will apply if clubs have comprehensive programs to prevent drunk driving (note: in Italy many big clubs are located on the industrial outskirts of main cities and, if you don't have enough money for taxi, there are really no way to get there without driving).

- increased fines and license points taken from not respecting the pedestrian strip

- increased financial and fiscal benefits for disabled people buying adapted cars (with the goal to improve mobility of the handicapped).

It was, overall, a very, very good reform of the Italian Highway Code - a massive one, affecting 1/3 of its articles.

In regard of the 150km/h limit, it will not become the blank speed limit. It will, however, provide a regulation whereas the agency with jurisdiction over the highways will have to study the technical feasibility of increasing the limits up to 150 in every highway that has 3 or more lanes per direction.

The biggest potential for a 150km/h maximum speed, in my opinion, is for the A1 (Milano-Bologna) and the A4 (Torino-Milano-Bergamo), of course outside the tangenziali milanese limits. It will be awesome, 150km/h cars travelling alongside 270 km/h trains all over the Pianura Panda :cheers:

Attitudes toward speed in Italy have changed a lot. With more than a decade of private administration of what was once the worst-kept highway network, there is growing pressure to increase speed limits, and people do not tolerate environmental excuses or so. In a very interesting policy shift occurred 5/6 years ago, the highway authorities proposed widespread adoption of the Tutor (which measures average speed limits over long (2, 5 and 10km) sectors) instead of lower speed limits (suggestion was to lower the blank limit to 110 or 120) to curb high highway fatality rates. The Tutor worked beyond expectations, highway deaths were reduced by more than 54% and now the "lower the speed" camp lost its ground.

Even some 30 km/h main streets on residential zones are being dismantled in favor of 40km/h.

I truly hope other countries get inspired by this and make reforms in their highway codes too.


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## Suburbanist

*Highway constructions WORKS to reduce congestion and mortality*

Massive investment in Italian highways (overdue 10-20 years, though still short of what we really need) have curtailed congestion and deaths and highway mortality.

Here it goes data from Autostrada per l'Italia (covering the majority of major Italian freeway network):

*Annual mortality rate*
1999 - 1,14
2002 - 0,83
2005 - 0,60
2008 - 0,42
2009 - 0,36

*Deaths during the "exodo estivo"* (summer getaway)*
2006 - 74
2007 - 50
2008 - 45
2009 - 36

*Hours lost to traffic congestion in highways during the summer getaway* *
2006 - 1.491.022
2007 - 1.331.864
2008 - 1.129.145
2009 - 968.136

Finally, for those who want to check it out, traffic forecast during the 2010 summer getaway can be found here http://www.autostrade.it/pdf_previsioni/previsioni.pdf

I'll help with basic keys and translation: you have many graphic with weekdays and 6 colored circles. Each group of 3 circles represent morning-afternoon-evening. 3 left circles are for southbound or "tourist destination bound" traffic (example: westbound traffic on A8, but for most routes is straight forward south (left) and north (right).

Colors are self-explaining :lol:

They argue that ostensible and intensive publicity about the "bolino nero" (black mark) has decreased traffic on the worst of all days (first Saturday of August) in Italy by 7% last year, even if traffic in the whole first week of August increased by 4%. No particular bad weather occurred.

Finally, for those who want to know suggested "alternative routes", you can find them here http://autostrade.it/autostrade/percorsiAlternativi.do . Autostrada per l'Italia found out that many people rely on GPS only, and most GPS are still not dynamically feed with traffic info, so they direct people to highways regardless of the "bolino nero" on any day.

For foreigners, it is interesting as it shows reliable and toll-free roads they can take in the worst days. At least, if you are to get stuck on a traffic jam, do it in roads that crosses more cities and fields and beaches :cheers:


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## Suburbanist

*Widening projects "in study" by Autostrade per l'Italia*

In 2008 the major concessionary of Italian highways signed a protocol with the government to start studies on further projects (there are already massive widening/interchange reconstruction/variants projects ongoing).

The pre-selected sector for widening are: _[corsia = (to be widened to x) lanes (per direction)]_

A1 4ª corsia Milano Sud - Lodi	17,8km
A1 4ª corsia Piacenza Sud - Modena	97,9km
A1 3ª corsia Incisa - Valdarno	17,9km
A1 4ª corsia S.Cesareo - Colleferro	16,6km
A1 4ª corsia Colleferro - Frosinone	31,3km
A11 3ª corsia Firenze - Pistoia	26,8km
A11 3ª corsia Pistoia - Montecatini	11,4km
A12 3ª corsia Torrimpietra - S. Marinella	26,1km
A13 3ª corsia Padova Sud - Monselice	13,3km
A13 3ª corsia Ferrara - Bologna	32,7km
A14 4ª corsia Diramazione per Ravenna - Bologna S.Lazzaro	34,1km


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## -Pino-

Suburbanist said:


> The biggest potential for a 150km/h maximum speed, in my opinion, is for the A1 (Milano-Bologna) and the A4 (Torino-Milano-Bergamo), of course outside the tangenziali milanese limits. It will be awesome, 150km/h cars travelling alongside 270 km/h trains all over the Pianura Panda :cheers:


On an empty A1, A4 or A14 through the Pianura, I can see the point of raising the speed limit. But for large parts of the time, 150 would be over the top on those roads. The difference in speed between cars and trucks would be a point of attention as well. Maybe you'd end up with a dynamic speed limit, with 150 being permitted at night and during other hours with light traffic.

On top of that, I would hope that the 150 kmh speed limit will actually get enforced. I read a hint that drivers would not get demerit points until 210 kmh.


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## Suburbanist

-Pino- said:


> On an empty A1, A4 or A14 through the Pianura, I can see the point of raising the speed limit. But for large parts of the time, 150 would be over the top on those roads. The difference in speed between cars and trucks would be a point of attention as well. Maybe you'd end up with a dynamic speed limit, with 150 being permitted at night and during other hours with light traffic.
> 
> On top of that, I would hope that the 150 kmh speed limit will actually get enforced. I read a hint that drivers would not get demerit points until 210 kmh.


They will be fined if they exceed 150 + 5% + 10km/h = 157,50 + 10 = 167,50. For that there is a € 86 fine. They will get demerit points if they run over 157,50 + 20 km/h = 177,50.

Rules are different for infractions on average speed controls, though (Tutor). Fixed speed controls are not effective, as they have to be ostensibly signed beforehand.


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## 3naranze

*A28 opening soon...*

...but not so soon!
A28 will only open next 5 weekends from friday 2 p.m. till sunday 10 p.m. ("working hours") and only to by-pass A4 from A4-A27 junction to portogruaro. this to prevent the mega jam occured last year at quarto d'altino, junction A4-A57.
full opening next september hno:


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## 3naranze

today opening, but with restrictions. see my masterpiece


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## Verso

3naranze said:


> A28 will only open next 5 weekends from friday 2 p.m. till sunday 10 p.m. ("working hours") and only to by-pass A4 from A4-A27 junction to portogruaro. this to prevent the mega jam occured last year at quarto d'altino, junction A4-A57.


But who'll go from Padova to Portogruaro via A28 instead of A4 (Quarto d'Altino)? Will signs for Trieste point to A27 and A28, if congestion at A4×A57 gets too big?


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## Suburbanist

Verso said:


> But who'll go from Padova to Portogruaro via A28 instead of A4 (Quarto d'Altino)? Will signs for Trieste point to A27 and A28, if congestion at A4×A57 gets too big?


Maybe... the A28-A27-A4 route will function like a "passante esterno di Venezia" (external Venezia bypass) :cheers:


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## Coccodrillo

This detour is useful only when there are huge jams, that is, a few days per year.


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## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> This detour is useful only when there are huge jams, that is, a few days per year.


If there're huge jams, it's useful only, if detour is over A57-A27-A28, not Passante di Mestre (A4)-A27-A28. Between A4×A27 and A4×A57 it's just 6 km.


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## 3naranze

last year a 32 km huge jam, under a sunny july saturday, occured at quarto d'altino A4 bottleneck, where A4"passante di mestre/mestre bypass" (3 lanes) and A57"tangenziale di mestre" (2 lanes) merge in A4 (2 lanes) towards trieste and slo/hr. this year, to avoid the same nightmare, police has forced the opening of the A28, in advance of the work's full ending. this time, however, the mega jam occured this early morning at trieste-lisert head toll station: 25 km at 4.30 a.m.. police, for half an hour, permitted free passing for safety reasons. the same at 6.15.


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## Suburbanist

*A few questions about roads in Sicilia*

Hi there,

It has been 1 year since I've last been in beloved Sicilia. Last time I was there, some things made me happy, like the full completion of A20 and the progress on construction of A18 between Catania in Siracusa (at least 10 years late).

Now, I have some questions (I was going to make them on Italian forum, but I'll make them here instead so we can discuss and - maybe - bring pictures).

- The A18 near Avola had serious structural problems, mostly unsettled embankments, though being a relatively new "autostrada". Speed was dropped to maximum 70km/h. Have they fixed the problem?

- How is construction of additional sectors of A18 going (or not)? Any estimated date of completion until Modica, at least?

- Last summer I stayed in Marina di Ragusa and travelled - among other destinations - to Caltassineta and Enna. Both trips made me take detours. The SS116 near Gela was closed (here: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...2951,14.109449&spn=0.038525,0.109863&t=h&z=14 ), so I had to take a detours through a picturesque but jammed and somehow dangerous at night with rain road through Butera. I realize the road is complete but a viaduct felt to the ground due to design failure (!!!). Have they replaced that viaduct?

- On the following day, I was travelling to Piazza Armerina (everything was fine) and then to Catania. To do so, I took the SS117 then was planning to take the SP4 until the A19. However, there was a road closure at this point near Grottacalda, where SP4 join SS117 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...475131,14.34351&spn=0.03835,0.109863&t=h&z=14). The detour was way shorter than the one through Butera, but the road was damn-narrow and the TIRs never minded it :lol: Have they reopened the road (Google Street View will show the road still closed with detour signs).


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## Eddard Stark

Verso said:


> If there're huge jams, it's useful only, if detour is over A57-A27-A28, not Passante di Mestre (A4)-A27-A28. Between A4×A27 and A4×A57 it's just 6 km.


If passante and the first stretch of A4 towards Trieste are blocked the autorities can deviate traffico on the old Tangenziale and from there A27-A28

It's quite a good tool actually: it's like having to completely different tracks forming a sort of 8


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## Verso

3naranze said:


> last year a 32 km huge jam, under a sunny july saturday, occured at quarto d'altino A4 bottleneck, where A4"passante di mestre/mestre bypass" (3 lanes) and A57"tangenziale di mestre" (2 lanes) merge in A4 (2 lanes) towards trieste and slo/hr. this year, to avoid the same nightmare, police has forced the opening of the A28, in advance of the work's full ending. this time, however, the mega jam occured this early morning at trieste-lisert head toll station: 25 km at 4.30 a.m.. police, for half an hour, permitted free passing for safety reasons. the same at 6.15.


Trieste-Lisert is a tiny toll station, but 25 km? That's all the way to Palmanova (A4×A23). Forget about taking a detour over Gorizia... even if you have a Slovenian vignette. I found a few photos on Il Piccolo.



































http://ilpiccolo.gelocal.it/dettaglio/esodo-destate-code-di-chilometri-verso-la-slovenia/2216152


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## Suburbanist

^^ The congestion problem in toll plazas during summer holiday peak times in Italy is aggravated by the fact that the share of cars using automated systems (cards and RFID systems) is far lower, as occasional drivers and international visitors usually don't have them.


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## x-type

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The congestion problem in toll plazas during summer holiday peak times in Italy is aggravated by the fact that the share of cars using automated systems (cards and RFID systems) is far lower, as occasional drivers and international visitors usually don't have them.


but at Lisert nothing helps - that toll plaza is miniature for traffic volumes. last time i passed there i made a jam because it didn't want to accept my card, something blocked. in that moment horrible rain started, the jam happened in a moment!


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## Eddard Stark

Verso said:


> Trieste-Lisert is a tiny toll station, but 25 km? That's all the way to Palmanova (A4×A23). Forget about taking a detour over Gorizia... even if you have a Slovenian vignette. I found a few photos on Il Piccolo.
> 
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> http://ilpiccolo.gelocal.it/dettaglio/esodo-destate-code-di-chilometri-verso-la-slovenia/2216152


this is indeed ridicolously small


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## Verso

^^ Hard terrain, not much space there.


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## x-type

Verso said:


> ^^ Hard terrain, not much space there.


but there are much more suitable places to move toll booths - for instance, just after an exit Ronchi. it could easily be done to leave Ronchi - Lisert section under toll.


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## ChrisZwolle

Nothing the Italian engineers cannot handle.


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## 3naranze

last year autovie has been fined ( and what a big fine! ) by lacking assistance during the 32 km traffic jam. so this year, when the queue was going to stretch out towards A4-A23 junction at Palmanova, with high risk of accidents, they didn't collect toll fees for half an hour at 4.30. and the same another time in the morning at 6.15. ( while slovenian police continued to check vinjeta sticker on windshields..., says "il Piccolo")
trieste-lisert head barrier is so small because it has been designed in the early '60 (opened in the '66), when europe was divided by iron courtain: at that time what kind of traffic outlook they could ever consider? now traffic outlook is quite different and they should widening(?) or replacing(!) the toll plaza, otherwise every peak of traffic will mean a traffic jam


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## JB Colbert

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nothing the Italian engineers cannot handle.


Thank you for the estimation, Chris!


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## Verso

^^ Hmm, Predil on the Slovenian border is just 1,156 m, and I'm sure there're passes in Italian Alps as low as 500 m, like here.


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## Coccodrillo

The Brenner Pass is probably the lowest pass connecting the Adriatic watershed with another one (except the Cadibona Pass, considered the border between the Appennini and Alps, that are in fact an uninterrupted mountain chain running from Clabria until Austria).


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## Eddard Stark

Verso said:


> ^^ Hmm, Predil on the Slovenian border is just 1,156 m, and I'm sure there're passes in Italian Alps as low as 500 m, like here.


500 meters? no way


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## Suburbanist

I guess there is a small semantic confusion between the term "Alpin pass". In Italy, we usually refer to "Alpi" (Alps) as the mountain ridge that divided watershed running to the Ligurian and Adriatic Sea to elsewhere (or wherever else). The central mountain ridge that begins in Calabria and go all the way to the Western Alpine ridge near the Italian-French border is called "Little Alps". The "lower" mountain ridges north of the Padana Plain before the Alps are given other name like "Dolimiti" and "Pre Alpi". 

So when I said "lowest Alpine pass" I meant, the lowest road connection not using a tunnel linking Germany/Austria/France lowlands to Italy (I don't count the near-sea level "pass" by the oceanside between Menton and Ventimiglia for obvious reasons).

In any case, to get to what is "up there in the North" from Italy without detouring through France or all the way to the Caspian Sea you have to cross the Alps and the lowest point you can make it is the Brennero Pass.


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## Verso

^^ All clear now. I think what you meant is the lowest pass in the Italian part of the main Alps' divide (Monaco to Vienna approximately), because e.g. Passo di Monte Croce Carnico on the Austrian border is at 1,357 m, but isn't on the main Alpine divide. I think you're right (if we exclude passes close to the Ligurian Sea).



Eddard Stark said:


> 500 meters? no way


The word "Alps" includes all little hills in the Alps' outskirts. For example, Via San Lorenzo goes over a hill and is less than 500 m. I guess you meant more inland Alps, in which case we don't have such low passes either. But it all started when Suburbanist said Brennero was the lowest pass in the Alps, which of course isn't true. I hope we all understand now. :nuts:
EDIT: actually the before-mentioned Cadibona Pass (Bocchetta di Altare) seems to be pretty important and is just 459 m asl.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Suburbanist said:


> The central mountain ridge that begins in Calabria and go all the way to the Western Alpine ridge near the Italian-French border is called "Little Alps".


Actually it's called _Appennini_, which doesn't mean little Alps.
Their name come from Mount Penna, in Ligurian Appennino


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## Eddard Stark

Verso said:


> ^^ All clear now. I think what you meant is the lowest pass in the Italian part of the main Alps' divide (Monaco to Vienna approximately), because e.g. Passo di Monte Croce Carnico on the Austrian border is at 1,357 m, but isn't on the main Alpine divide. I think you're right (if we exclude passes close to the Ligurian Sea).
> 
> The word "Alps" includes all little hills in the Alps' outskirts. For example, Via San Lorenzo goes over a hill and is less than 500 m. I guess you meant more inland Alps, in which case we don't have such low passes either. But it all started when Suburbanist said Brennero was the lowest pass in the Alps, which of course isn't true. I hope we all understand now. :nuts:
> EDIT: actually the before-mentioned Cadibona Pass (Bocchetta di Altare) seems to be pretty important and is just 459 m asl.


for me a pass divides one side of the Alps to the other...that's the common sense.

The same would be true for the Pyrenees..the main "passes" are the one that allow traffic - from historic times - to go from one side to another, ie from modern France to modern Spain


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## GENIUS LOCI

^^
Anyway there are famous passes within Italy borders, as Stelvio, for istance, between Lombardy and Trentino-Alto Adige

Yep, I know some people say Sud Tyrol is not Italy...


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## Suburbanist

GENIUS LOCI said:


> ^^
> Anyway there are famous passes within Italy borders, as Stelvio, for istance, between Lombardy and Trentino-Alto Adige
> 
> Yep, I know some people say Sud Tyrol is not Italy...


Well, I guess South Tyrol/Sud Tirolo/Südtirol is as Italian as Silesia is Polish as Istria is Croatian. We just need to get over 60+ years war grievances... Or should Nice and all the land the French took subsequently in WW2 be Italian again :nuts: ? What about Danzig and the ex-Finnish east territories? And, yes, I am an anti-regionalism, anti-localism supporter (no "federalism" or "autonomy" in Italy, no independent status for Basque Country or Cataluña, no "devolved powers" to French regions etc. etc.). We've had enough bloody fights in Europe, millions died and we'd better forget this whining.

==================================

In any case, there are two DISUSED Alpine road passes. Because environwackos would make it virtually impossible to open new alpine passes, I'm very sad that two former passes are now disused.

One is *Passo di San Giacomo* (2135m) east of the Simplon pass (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q...59058,8.451673&spn=0.016762,0.054932&t=h&z=15).

It was the only road connection between Switzerland and Italy between Simplon pass and St. Gotthar pass (as Ticino is on the "other" side of the watershed). The picky Swiss decided to close road to traffic - not that there was any significant traffic, Italian approach takes more than 2 hours in best case scenario etc. - in 1993  They said the road saw so little traffic that it would be better to leave it as a bike and trail path only :down:

Other closed road pass is in the border with Austria is the the *Passo di Vizze* (2276m) east of the Brennero pass (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...5358,11.662674&spn=0.033193,0.077162&t=h&z=14). Though close to the large motorway, it provided a very interesting and scenic shortcut to Maruhofen and all the isolated valleys connecting there. However, the Austrians closed the last 8km or road (not only the ascent) in the 1970's out of concern of infiltration of Italian home-grown terrorist near some quite isolated hydropower dams in the region. They never reopened it and in the 1990's decided to convert the route into an "eco path" (gotta HATE environmentalists), as, well, any person who can ride a car can also bike 9km upwards a mountain pass without fainting/crumbling/dying.

In 2002 Italians made their nasty move too, closing the last 3km up to the top (the unpaved section of the road, but otherwise nice for traffic) because they didn't want to keep maintaining a rout that used to see an AADT of 43 (never mind the road was usually closed from December to June anyway). Now you have to CLIMB or BIKE upwards in the Italian side too, though less than in the Austrian side.

Fortunately, there are just two other unpaved road Alpine passes that are not paved, thus making them susceptible to closure for traffic. All others are quite vital.


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## hofburg

interesting discussion on last 2-3 pages


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## Coccodrillo

Eddard Stark said:


> for me a pass divides one side of the Alps to the other...that's the common sense.


A pass is a passage between two points higher than the pass itself. It doesn't matter if it is at 100 or 3000 m above sea level, or if it connect two or the same watershed.



Suburbanist said:


> Because environwackos would make it virtually impossible to open new alpine passes...


Thankfully there are ambientalists (but the truth lies between the extremes).


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Thankfully there are ambientalists (but the truth lies between the extremes).


I don't know any mainstream environmental organization in Italy that has _any_ reasonable approach to road construction. Some of them acquiesce to projects like widening if compensatory measures like noise barrier are build too.

But take ANY new roadway project (Pedemontana, Bre-Me-Mi, TEM, A12 Civitavecchia - Livorno, improvement/new alignment for SS 106 - Jonica, Messina Strait Bridge, ANY new highway (even 2X1) in Sicilia...) that involves chopping down a bunch of trees and they will become Italy's progress, development and growth fierce enemy.

Sometimes I think they (environmentalists) would have us all using only the roadways that the Romans had opened and that would be it.


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## Attus

Coccodrillo said:


> A pass is a passage between two points higher than the pass itself. It doesn't matter if it is at 100 or 3000 m above sea level, or if it connect two or the same watershed.
> Thankfully there are ambientalists (but the truth lies between the extremes).


A pass is the highest point of a road built on the lowest possible way ;-)


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## Verso

^^ Not necessarily. Roads sometimes go a few meters higher in the mountain than the pass they traverse, but that highest point isn't called "pass".


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## sotonsi

From wikipedia:
"In a range of hills or, especially, of mountains, a pass *is a path that allows the crossing of a mountain chain*. It is usually a saddle point in between two areas of higher elevation." So it's simply a path/road crossing of a mountain chain.

A saddle point is the lowest summit of a route in-between (as in they pass either side) two peaks - so is the highest point on a theoretical road built the lowest possible way, however a pass doesn't have to go the lowest possible way (though they tend to go the lowest practical way, which isn't quite the same).


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## Verso

^^ A "saddle point" is often refered to as a "pass", especially by non-native English speakers. You rarely hear someone using the words "saddle point". People are usually interested in the elevation of saddle points ("passes") and often stop there, not just in paths/roads running over them.


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## Eddard Stark

GENIUS LOCI said:


> ^^
> Anyway there are famous passes within Italy borders, as Stelvio, for istance, between Lombardy and Trentino-Alto Adige
> 
> Yep, I know some people say Sud Tyrol is not Italy...


what this has to do with what I said?

I said an alpine pass for us is what allows traffic, people, goods to cross the alps.

Stelvio is surely a pass between Lombary and Trentino, but does not allow to cross the Alps

I am not saying there are no other passes except the ones between the two sides of the mountain range, just that the main passes (ie in our case the alpine passes) are the ones that allow to cross the same mountain range

And again - apart of the definition of pass or saddle - that is the common sense everyone uses about this concept


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## Suburbanist

Eddard Stark said:


> what this has to do with what I said?
> 
> I said an alpine pass for us is what allows traffic, people, goods to cross the alps.
> 
> Stelvio is surely a pass between Lombary and Trentino, but does not allow to cross the Alps
> 
> I am not saying there are no other passes except the ones between the two sides of the mountain range, just that the main passes (ie in our case the alpine passes) are the ones that allow to cross the same mountain range
> 
> And again - apart of the definition of pass or saddle - that is the common sense everyone uses about this concept


In any case, I think those mountain passes are among the best spots for car trips in Italy :cheers:

Next year, budget and time allowing, I'm planning a summer theme trip to cover 25-35 mountain passes in the Alps and the Pyrenees. My idea is to film them and make a sort of theme blog project. I'll only focus on passes above 1500 s.l.m. :lol:


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## Eddard Stark

Suburbanist said:


> In any case, I think those mountain passes are among the best spots for car trips in Italy :cheers:
> 
> Next year, budget and time allowing, I'm planning a summer theme trip to cover 25-35 mountain passes in the Alps and the Pyrenees. My idea is to film them and make a sort of theme blog project. I'll only focus on passes above 1500 s.l.m. :lol:


I still remember the time when I crossed the Simplon pass by car during a winter snow storm (damn my friends)

The wind was blowing and making scary noise, the snow was whirlind around our cars. The street was lightly covered with snow but we were passing - at the top - between two high walls of snow.

It looked a lot like the Caradhras attempted crossing by the fellowship of the Ring

On the way back I took the tunnel (you can load the car on a train and cross the Alps)


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## sotonsi

Verso said:


> ^^ A "saddle point" is often refered to as a "pass", especially by non-native English speakers. You rarely hear someone using the words "saddle point". People are usually interested in the elevation of saddle points ("passes") and often stop there, not just in paths/roads running over them.


Very true. 

In british English the saddle point is normally called a gap or col (which are never used for the road), and the pass relates to the road. The wiki article had a bit I snipped out where it gave a load of alternate names:

"In a range of hills or, especially, of mountains, a pass (also gap, notch, col, saddle, hause, bwlch (Welsh), brennig or bealach (Gaelic)) is a path that allows the crossing of a mountain chain"


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## ChrisZwolle

Question:

Autostrada dei Laghi (A8/A9) is often cited as the first motorway in the world. However, at the time of opening (1924), it had just one carriageway with two lanes, thus it wouldn't comply with contemporary motorway standards. When was the second carriageway built? I can't find that. I'm also interested when A8 was widened to 2x3 and 2x4 lanes.


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## Coccodrillo

Many claims records for themselves (we built it first, we have the steepest road, we...), but I would say that modern motorways have been invented merging different ideas: Autolaghi was built expressly for motorized private touristic traffic (it is not an existing and widened road build for horse wagons), maybe the Germans invented the double carriageway, someone other invented grade-separated interchanges, etc.


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## TohrAlkimista

ChrisZwolle said:


> Question:
> 
> Autostrada dei Laghi (A8/A9) is often cited as the first motorway in the world. However, at the time of opening (1924), it had just one carriageway with two lanes, thus it wouldn't comply with contemporary motorway standards. When was the second carriageway built? I can't find that. I'm also interested when A8 was widened to 2x3 and 2x4 lanes.


From what I've found, A8 was widened to:

-*2x4* from *Milan* to *Lainate*
-*2x3* from *Lainate* to *Gallarate*

in *1999*.

Those development were meant to link better Malpensa Airport.










For the other sections I do not know.


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## ChrisZwolle

A8 will be widened to 2x5 lanes by the way... from Lainate to Arese, to handle the widening of A9 Como - Lainate to 2x3 lanes. Works to be completed in 2012.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ From the A8/A50 interchange to the interchange A8/A9 (and from 2x2 to 2x3 from this latter interchange to Como Sud exit).


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## TohrAlkimista

A pic of the pretty impressive interchange between A8 - "Autolaghi" at the barrier of Terrazzano and the A50 - Tangenziale Ovest of Milano ('Western Bypass'):









http://www.aviazionecivile.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1058818#post1058818


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## Suburbanist

Yeah, it is a pity that Milano freeways operate in an open-system fashion.

Few km Southeastward this road crosses A4 (Torino-Venezia), when they've built one of the most odd interchange-toll plaza combinations in Italy (notice the double swap of A50 lanes so only traffic to/from the closed-system sector from Torino passes through the toll plaza:









(C) Google Street View captured by me.


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## -Pino-

Suburbanist said:


> Yeah, it is a pity that Milano freeways operate in an open-system fashion.


Is it? Imagine the jams that would result from a closed system. Plus the space constraints of implementing toll gates in already complicated exits like Cormano and Viale Zara.


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## Verso

Milan would need C/D roads, if it wanted to have a closed toll system.


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## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> Is it? Imagine the jams that would result from a closed system. Plus the space constraints of implementing toll gates in already complicated exits like Cormano and Viale Zara.


Milan should learn from Bologna: Bologna tangenziale is separated from the highways but on the same path. So if you come from A14 or A1 or A13, you can either choose to continue on another motorway without intermediate toll booths, or enter the free tangenziale to get to the city...

But Bologna tangenziale is only 15km long, while Milan's is waaay longer... :nuts:


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## Mauz®

Bologna a4/tangenziale has been a nightmare for a lot of drivers during so many years, and today, with the dynamic 3rd lane the problem is still not solved totally, even if by now it is working! I wouldn't take it as an example. 

Milan needs an external ring of bypasses, in order to keep a bug part of the traffic far from the actual ring of "tangenziali" and use it for local traffic.


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## g.spinoza

Mauz® said:


> Bologna a4/tangenziale has been a nightmare for a lot of drivers during so many years, and today, with the dynamic 3rd lane the problem is still not solved totally, even if by now it is working! I wouldn't take it as an example.


I knew someone was gonna say that! :nuts:

You're right, in fact as you know there are plans to coalesce the current tangenziale and urban section of A14 into a new 4+4 lane tangenziale, and build a "Passante Nord" reserved for A14.
The problem you were referring to is that the urban section of A14 is 2+2 lane, while A14 on the east side is 3+3 and A1 on the other side is 4+4... that section of A14 is a bottleneck and therefore they upgraded it with dynamic 3rd lane (a solution I hate, btw).

However, even if they build the Passante Nord, tangenziale and autostrada will remain fully independent as they are today, which I think is the winning idea.

That's the basic idea I was thinking about. Milano shoud adopt something like that.
You idea of "external bypasses" is good, but just as long as they intercept only the autostrade traffic and not the tangenziale one.


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## ChrisZwolle

There is no way you can widen the A4 through Milano without a large-scale demolition of buildings. Even the widening of the shoulders by 1 meter or so on each side cost € 65 million for 9 kilometers to implement shoulder running (corsia dinamica).


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## TohrAlkimista

True.
Some parts of the "Tangenziale Nord", the A52, and the urban section of the A4 are so close to the buildings, you can see people's living rooms. :lol:


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## TohrAlkimista

Works on the A3:


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## Mauz®

g.spinoza said:


> I knew someone was gonna say that! :nuts:
> 
> You're right, in fact as you know there are plans to coalesce the current tangenziale and urban section of A14 into a new 4+4 lane tangenziale, and build a "Passante Nord" reserved for A14.
> The problem you were referring to is that the urban section of A14 is 2+2 lane, while A14 on the east side is 3+3 and A1 on the other side is 4+4... that section of A14 is a bottleneck and therefore they upgraded it with dynamic 3rd lane (a solution I hate, btw).
> 
> However, even if they build the Passante Nord, tangenziale and autostrada will remain fully independent as they are today, which I think is the winning idea.
> 
> That's the basic idea I was thinking about. Milano shoud adopt something like that.
> You idea of "external bypasses" is good, but just as long as they intercept only the autostrade traffic and not the tangenziale one.


I agree with you about creating two separate systems (one for long range traffic and one for local traffic). What I disagree is to make them parallel (as it happens in Bologna).

Milan should reserve to local traffic the actual "tangenziali" and the actual urban stretch of A4 and build new roads for long range traffic.

TEM (Tangenziale Est Esterna) is one of them: if from Melegnano you want to bypass Milan going North or East you can take it.
Pedemontana will do the same for traffic coming from East and going towards North (although I don't like the common stretch with ss335).
What we need now is a motorway connecting Melegnano to Boffalora (where the Boffalora - MXP motorway begins), in order to intercept traffi coming from south and going towards North or West.

When we will have all of them completed the big problem will be only one: goin from West to Est (and viceversa) without driving on the urban stretch of the A4 or the Taangenziale Nord (rho - monza).


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## ChrisZwolle

> Milan should reserve to local traffic the actual "tangenziali" and the actual urban stretch of A4 and build new roads for long range traffic.


The problem is any new road will be significantly longer than the A4. It must be very attractive to use, for drivers to accept the longer distance. They have this problem a lot in the United States where beltways are barely used by through traffic, since they're twice as long and just as congested as the route through the city. 

The A4 is a very straight Autostrada. Long-distance traffic can already use the alternative A21 from Torino via Piacenza to Brescia. A northern bypass could relieve the A4 from regional traffic and international traffic from Switzerland to the great lakes and Venezia. For example, if it would run from Como to the Bergamo region.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> The problem is any new road will be significantly longer than the A4. It must be very attractive to use, for drivers to accept the longer distance


One solution could be building a new stretch from the A4 to the intersection of the future Pedemontana Lombarda with current SS35:









so that the east part of the Pedemontana would become the new part of A4.


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## -Pino-

The Pedemontana is a route straight through a rather urban area. I don't see much difference between using the current A4 and the Pedemontana as the main east-west artery. Except of course that the Pedemontana will divert some traffic from the A4, which is good news for the A4 in itself. 

The problem of the A4 is that it is the only significant east-west connector through an urban region with a few million inhabitants (Milan/Monza in itself, but also the wider region including Varese, Bergamo and Brescia). The bulk of the traffic is actually regional or is long-distance traffic originating from Milan. For that reason, I do not see much merit in a Como - Bergamo connector. The approach chosen of straight east-west routes that share the east-west traffic burden, such as the BreBeMi and the Pedemontana, should do a much better job to take traffic from the A4 than a larger bypass would.

One of the good things about the A4 through Milan is that it actually has very few interchanges. The interchanges take very little impact on traffic jams. For that reason, I do not think that a Bologna-type c/d road will add a lot. Just add lanes to the A4; I don't care if they have to demolish a lot of houses in one of the ugliest parts of Milan.


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## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> The Pedemontana is a route straight through a rather urban area. I don't see much difference between using the current A4 and the Pedemontana as the main east-west artery.


Well, there is a lot of difference if you use the urban section of A4 EXCLUSIVELY as tangenziale and the Pedemontana as A4 replacement. In this way you keep local and long distance traffic separated, much like Passante di Mestre and Tangenziale di Mestre.


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## ChrisZwolle

I rather think it's the other way around. A4 for through traffic and the Pedemonta for regional traffic. As Pino said, A4 doesn't have a lot of exits towards Milano (only 2 to be exact), so it's better suited for through traffic.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> I rather think it's the other way around. A4 for through traffic and the Pedemonta for regional traffic.


Pedemontana is way too far from the city of Milan to be a tangenziale. Nobody in Milan will reach that far.


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## ChrisZwolle

Not Milano no, but there is an extensive suburban area north of Milano, that stretches from Milano to Como and from Gallarate to Lecco. They don't have to use the A8-A4-SS36 route anymore, but can use the Pedemonta. It would be even better if A52 was extended to A8.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Of course, that's the primary goal of Pedemontana. Previously I was referring to the fact that Milan's system of tangenziali is shared with long distance traffic (and that's bad), so one idea to separate traffic in northern Milan is use A4 as local tangenziale and Pedemontana (extendend westward to the A4) as long distance Milan bypass.


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## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> As Pino said, A4 doesn't have a lot of exits towards Milano (only 2 to be exact)


Looks like you can also enter and exit the A4 through this rest area.


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## Suburbanist

Verso said:


> Looks like you can also enter and exit the A4 through this rest area.


You can't. They are rebuilding that rest area. Look at Google Street View: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...id=5bP53BMDoIRJiejqOVPqLg&cbp=12,90.1,,1,7.15


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## keber

TohrAlkimista said:


> Works on the A3:


Hmmm, this is taking really slooow.


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## Verso

Suburbanist said:


> You can't. They are rebuilding that rest area. Look at Google Street View: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...id=5bP53BMDoIRJiejqOVPqLg&cbp=12,90.1,,1,7.15


How old is that rest area? I never stopped there.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Eeheh. Imagine rebuilding a 440km motorway, in a harsh mountain environment, almost from scratch...


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## Suburbanist

The Italian A3 has 4 bridges amongst the list of 500 tallest bridges in the World, 3 among the 25 tallest. It transpose three times one of the most challenging mountain ridges in Europe (nor for height, but geological complexity and seismic activity). It's been reconstructed without being closed to traffic (except for a few weeks in the last years, they never closed traffic, instead channeled it to 1 carriageway only). Some of its viaducts are having their decks (but not the structure) enlarged, others were replaced by new ones and have been demolished.

It is a quite hard job in that highway to widen it and realign it.


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## keber

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Eeheh. Imagine rebuilding a 440km motorway, in a harsh mountain environment, almost from scratch...


Actually I was on that section in 2007 and 2009 and looking at this year picture, works are going much too slow. It is a difficult section, that is true, but it is still not so overwhelmingly difficult.

I'm talking about section close to Reggio di Calabria, this particular viaduct is the highest there, Bagnara.


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## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> Not Milano no, but there is an extensive suburban area north of Milano, that stretches from Milano to Como and from Gallarate to Lecco. They don't have to use the A8-A4-SS36 route anymore, but can use the Pedemonta. It would be even better if A52 was extended to A8.


Funny how a person living up north and which - admitedly - only drove 3 km of italian autostrada knows Milan road situation/plans so well


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## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Actually I was on that section in 2007 and 2009 and looking at this year picture, works are going much too slow. It is a difficult section, that is true, but it is still not so overwhelmingly difficult.


You're probably right. What's sad, is that we Italians are getting more and more used to delays in constructions. When they say "it will be ready in 4 years" we already know that this means at least 8.


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## Mauz®

ChrisZwolle said:


> The problem is any new road will be significantly longer than the A4. It must be very attractive to use, for drivers to accept the longer distance. They have this problem a lot in the United States where beltways are barely used by through traffic, since they're twice as long and just as congested as the route through the city.
> 
> The A4 is a very straight Autostrada. Long-distance traffic can already use the alternative A21 from Torino via Piacenza to Brescia. A northern bypass could relieve the A4 from regional traffic and international traffic from Switzerland to the great lakes and Venezia. For example, if it would run from Como to the Bergamo region.


The goal of Pedemontana is not to serve traffic going East to West (or viceversa), but East to North (and viceversa) instead of let all this traffic go through the urban stretch of A4.

Pedemontana will reach both A8 and A9, and also ss336 to Malpensa Airport.
The only critical stretch, in my opinion is the one shared with ss335 (Milano-Meda). There we will see big traffic jams, despite any sort of widening.


-Pino- said:


> The Pedemontana is a route straight through a rather urban area. I don't see much difference between using the current A4 and the Pedemontana as the main east-west artery. Except of course that the Pedemontana will divert some traffic from the A4, which is good news for the A4 in itself.
> 
> The problem of the A4 is that it is the only significant east-west connector through an urban region with a few million inhabitants (Milan/Monza in itself, but also the wider region including Varese, Bergamo and Brescia). The bulk of the traffic is actually regional or is long-distance traffic originating from Milan. For that reason, I do not see much merit in a Como - Bergamo connector. The approach chosen of straight east-west routes that share the east-west traffic burden, such as the BreBeMi and the Pedemontana, should do a much better job to take traffic from the A4 than a larger bypass would.
> 
> One of the good things about the A4 through Milan is that it actually has very few interchanges. The interchanges take very little impact on traffic jams. For that reason, I do not think that a Bologna-type c/d road will add a lot. Just add lanes to the A4; I don't care if they have to demolish a lot of houses in one of the ugliest parts of Milan.


Now you have 2 significant ways of going East to West (and vv.):
1) through the urban stretch of A4;
2) through SP 46 "Rho-Monza" and "tangenziale nord".

But the sp46 needs to be completed. By the moment it ends in two turnabouts totally congested with traffic. The goal would be to bypass those 2 turnabouts and connect the sp46 directly to the motorway that already exists around the new Fair of Milan and so, through it connect to the A8/A9 and the "tangenziale Ovest". Moreover sp46 standards in general need to be improved. And finally it's necessary to build a direct link among sp46 and "tangenziale nord". By now if you want to go from sp46 to "tangenziale nord" you have to drive on a short stretch of Milano-Meda (very congested).

In my opinion all this is necessary, but won't be enopugh to solve the problem of traffic going East to West (and vv.). We will have to project something more. A new direct route frome East to West to be dedicated to long-distance traffic. And this is the big problem.

A4 can't be widened anymore. The only thing we can do on A4 is to destroy Certosa interchange and totally rebuild it in a better way. IMHO this wouldn't solve the problem of traffic, but would help decongesting A4.

To demolish a lot of buildings around A4 in oreder to widen it is only an UTOPIA, in my opinion. It is not posible to do that. A lot of those buildings are the places where many people live! Their HOMES!


Verso said:


> Looks like you can also enter and exit the A4 through this rest area.


You can't! 

The rest area (on the north lane) is relatively new. On the southern lane that's not a rest area, but an administrative building of the society managing the "tangenziali" of Milan. There is an access to a local street passing near it, but it is restricted to authorized vehicles.


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## ChrisZwolle

Mauz® said:


> But the sp46 needs to be completed. By the moment it ends in two turnabouts totally congested with traffic. The goal would be to bypass those 2 turnabouts and connect the sp46 directly to the motorway that already exists around the new Fair of Milan and so, through it connect to the A8/A9 and the "tangenziale Ovest". Moreover sp46 standards in general need to be improved. And finally it's necessary to build a direct link among sp46 and "tangenziale nord". By now if you want to go from sp46 to "tangenziale nord" you have to drive on a short stretch of Milano-Meda (very congested).


This seems to be a good solution. SP-46 is only 1x2 for a short section near Baranzate with two roundabouts. 

However, I'd suggest a slightly altered alignment near Baranzate, because current SP-46 runs on a narrow alignment through the town. A northern alignment requires the demolition of 3 or 4 buildings, but has a straighter route, and affects less people.









I do think the SP-46 / A8 interchange may require a fly-over from Lainate towards Baranzate to streamline the flow of traffic. Also; would it be possible to widen SP-46 / A52 to 2x3 lanes? The area isn't as densely built as along the A4-corridor.


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## ChrisZwolle

How about the SS36 extension? There are a few intersections before you reach Milano, are there frequent traffic jams there? It may be an idea to eliminate these intersections, or make them "right-in, right-out" only, so through traffic never has to stop. The downside is you cannot cross the road anymore, but traffic could be diverted to other roads.










By the way SS36 is pretty cool along Lago di Como. Lots of tunnels, I remember that section vividly.


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## Coccodrillo

There is a tunnel under construction there: http://www.statale36web.it/ and http://www.hqmonza.it/


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## TohrAlkimista

keber said:


> Hmmm, this is taking really slooow.


Actually the pic could easily be outdated.
I took it from the official website of the developer of the modernisation project, Impregilo: http://www.impregilo.it/impregilo/i...e=show_ad&adid=114&catid=16&Itemid=77&lang=en


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## Mauz®

ChrisZwolle said:


> This seems to be a good solution. SP-46 is only 1x2 for a short section near Baranzate with two roundabouts.
> 
> However, I'd suggest a slightly altered alignment near Baranzate, because current SP-46 runs on a narrow alignment through the town. A northern alignment requires the demolition of 3 or 4 buildings, but has a straighter route, and affects less people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do think the SP-46 / A8 interchange may require a fly-over from Lainate towards Baranzate to streamline the flow of traffic. Also; would it be possible to widen SP-46 / A52 to 2x3 lanes? The area isn't as densely built as along the A4-corridor.


I agree aboout the alignment of the new stretch of SP46, but I didn't understand thee part concernig the fly-over from Lainate to Baranzate...


ChrisZwolle said:


> How about the SS36 extension? There are a few intersections before you reach Milano, are there frequent traffic jams there? It may be an idea to eliminate these intersections, or make them "right-in, right-out" only, so through traffic never has to stop. The downside is you cannot cross the road anymore, but traffic could be diverted to other roads.
> 
> http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/3613/ss36.jpg
> 
> By the way SS36 is pretty cool along Lago di Como. Lots of tunnels, I remember that section vividly.


I that stretch of the ss36 there is constantly a HELL of a traffic jam, because of two intersections with traffic light.
By now a tunnel is being built in order to solve the problem. Tohralkimista posted the links where you can find the project!


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## ChrisZwolle

Mauz® said:


> I agree aboout the alignment of the new stretch of SP46, but I didn't understand thee part concernig the fly-over from Lainate to Baranzate...


The current connection from A8 to SP-46 is a tight cloverleaf loop. This reduces capacity. With a fly-over, you can have a better alignment that allows a higher speed of traffic, thus higher capacity.

It looks something like this:


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## Mauz®

by now and for a long time there's no need to add capacity to that "cloverleaf" interchange. That road is usually free of traffic.

The only possible problems happen when there's some important event inside the Fair or when a loto of vehicle need to enter the roundabout in the direction of SP46. But when SP46 will connect directly (bypassing the roundabouts) this problem will be over.


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## lucaf1

Italian highway code: all road signs (and not only...) here: 


http://www.siulp.it/Layouts.asp?IDP...ione=VisSched&IDOggetto=4085&ordine=780#sez23


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## Eddard Stark

thanks to Gualtiero

Pictures of A3, some pieces renovated (2 lanes+emergency lane) in Calabria (towards the end of the highway) and some of the works in progress

I find them always very interesting



Gualtiero said:


> Viadotto e tunnel in costruzione (Scilla - Bagnara)
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> Inizio di un tratto che dovrebbe tagliare di netto una buona fetta di vecchia autostrada
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> ^^Qui il nuovo tratto è addirittura perpendicolare all'attuale tracciato
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> Aggiungo:1) Hanno intenzione di sistemare anche lo svincolo di Rosarno?visto che il tratto nuovo finisce poco prima e riprende subito dopo!
> 2)Non c'è traccia di ripresa dei cantieri sequestrati tra Rosarno e Mileto
> 3) Segnale di totale abbandono nel lungo rettilineo tra Pizzo e poco prima di Lamezia Terme
> 4) Non esiste ancora nessun cantiere per quanto riguarda, penso, uno dei tratti più difficili la discesa - salita S. Onofrio - Pizzo
> 
> Non dobbiamo farci prendere in giro, visto lo stato dell'autostrada nemmeno se lavorassero 24 ore al giorno la finiscono come intende farci credere Ciucci...ami il calzino.


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## x-type

there are seriously works going on!! 
can somebody write alist of finnished sections and sections where the works are currently in progress?


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## g.spinoza

http://www.stradeanas.it/index.php?/file/download/10106

In Italian but it's easily understandable.


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## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> http://www.stradeanas.it/index.php?/file/download/10106
> 
> In Italian but it's easily understandable.


non importa, parlo italiano


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## Fargo Wolf

lucaf1 said:


> Italian highway code: all road signs (and not only...) here:
> 
> 
> http://www.siulp.it/Layouts.asp?IDP...ione=VisSched&IDOggetto=4085&ordine=780#sez71


Is there an English version available online?:?


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## lucaf1

No


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## Suburbanist

I call your attention to some particular signaling protocols in Italy:

#3c - weekends and holidays (used to specify when a restriction/direction is valid)
#3d - weekdays (idem)

#6/p1 - sign post at the beginning of a ascent/descent with many hairpin curves, indicating the number of them

#6/p2 - indicates which of the hairpins are you about to drive through (it's not uncommon to have mountains ascents with 20-30 - sometimes 40 - hairpins with low visibility, so this signs help you get and idea where are you in relate to the difficult mountain sector).

#40 - regular intersection, preference shall be given to vehicles coming on the right

#74 - unless otherwise stated, the parking forbidden restriction (e.g., a stand-alone sign without hours specification) applies only between 7h and 20h.

#85 - minimum speed limit

#312 - recommended (but not compulsory limited) driving speed

#322 - *zona traffico limitato* This is the trickiest Italian sign. A Z.T.L. is an area with wide restriction on traffic. You need to read what is below to understand it. In a nutshell, there are two major types of Z.T.L.: (a) restriction on trucks/caravans, usually indicated by an auxiliary sign (#137, #138, #139, #140) below it ; and (b) a restricted zone where, during certain times/days, only residents and registered vehicles can drive in (common in core medieval centers of many Italian cities, usually encompassing no more than 1/2 km²).

#448 - parking forbidden (horizontal signaling). Moreover, specific restriction apply in presence of blue lanes (paid parking/time-limited parking) or yellow lanes (reserved parking).

#461c - "green wave" recommended speed, meaning a sector whose traffic lights are coordinated to turn on as to provide non-stop journey if the driver retains the indicated speed.


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## g.spinoza

Fargo Wolf said:


> Is there an English version available online?:?


Sorry, but it isn't very difficult to understand:

- light green: works completed.
- magenta: works annulled.
- yellow: works ongoing.
- red: works not yet started
- orange: call for tenders ended.
- cyan: call for tenders ongoing.


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> Sorry, but it isn't very difficult to understand:
> 
> - light green: works completed.
> - magenta: works annulled.
> - yellow: works ongoing.
> - red: works not yet started
> - orange: call for tenders ended.
> - cyan: call for tenders ongoing.


He was asking about the signaling specifications for the CdS, not about the status update from Anas


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Why don't I ever read....


----------



## Wilhem275

Suburbanist said:


> #3c - *weekends* and holidays (used to specify when a restriction/direction is valid)
> #3d - weekdays (idem)


AFAIK, saturdays are considered as weekdays, not as holidays :shifty:

Thus, there is no definition of the "weekend" in the Road Law, as Sat. and Sun. always come with different regulations.


----------



## Suburbanist

Wilhem275 said:


> AFAIK, saturdays are considered as weekdays, not as holidays :shifty:
> 
> Thus, there is no definition of the "weekend" in the Road Law, as Sat. and Sun. always come with different regulations.


Bad choice of words... Too much time far from Italy here hno:


----------



## Suburbanist

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What a waste... It would be like a city banning electricity. I'm highly annoyed by these anti-car measures. But after all, its their government. So I take my angry and bitterness against officials who established discriminatory ZTLs in Italy instead.





g.spinoza said:


> Why are you against ZTLs? I think that in the small streets of italian cities they're the only way to keep the city "livable"...





Suburbanist said:


> Well, first of all not all ZTLs were created equal... I can understand a ZTL in Urbino, Matera or San Gimignano, or those covering small tracts of narrow medieval streets. Siena ZTL, for instance, is too large, covering wide roads together with real alleys where car traffic would not be feasible.
> 
> However, nothing explains the fairness of ZTLs in Firenze, Bologna, Milano and Roma that cover large boulevards and so. Bologna and Roma ZTLs are the worse IMO.
> 
> In any case, I'd prefer a toll system that collected the same fare from everyone accessing the area, resident or not. I'd not mind paying some extra euros to go straight to the Due Torri in Bologna, for instance, if I had such option, while other drivers would just park their cars outside the ZTLs to avoid tolls. But they discriminate in favor of residents, which is unfair.
> 
> Well, I think we should move this discussion to the Italian road forum





g.spinoza said:


> I don't know Rome but I like very much Bologna ZTL... the city centre is full of people walking by, I'd prefer them very much over cars...
> 
> 
> You serious? And discriminating in favour of rich people is better than discriminating in favour of residents???
> 
> I bet our political views ar waaaaaay different


Well, people could still walk if the ZTL didn't exist. That is my point: forcing people to walk by limiting the core medieval centers access to cars is wrong, it's and undue intervention of the "comune" in the private choice of transportation of their citizens.

Market solutions (tolls) are always better than gerrymandered schemes where some people living in one side of an avenue can park and drive their cars, but not the others living 20m across.

I still favor pedestrianized limited zones on narrow alleys or plazas, and also parking restrictions on streets (so ppl can park underground and free up space overground), but not this discriminatory views that residents of a place are entitled more rights than others. 

To the extent I know, internal discrimination of access was terminated in Italy in 1861. The ZTLs are a sad point in a fortunately limited trend of considering some Italians more Italian than others in face of the Law, in the case, traffic law. It's like a parochial version of the "auto blue".

After all, "la legge è [oppure dovrebbe essere] uguale per tutti" (the Law is (or should be) equal for everyone).


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I don't like laws who favour people who pay...

Well, I've given my opinion, and I'm very much interested in those of you all...


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I don't like laws who favour people who pay...
> 
> Well, I've given my opinion, and I'm very much interested in those of you all...


Then you have to cope with traffic jams, and let everybody try to ride those streets.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Or close them, that's the way it is now and I'm happy about it.


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Or close them, that's the way it is now and I'm happy about it.


Closing a street because it is too jammed is like stopping the production of the iPad because there are too many people willing to buy it.

I don't oppose SMALL pedestrianized areas in narrow streets. But nothing justifies, like in Bologna, to introduce a ZTL in the main avenue, which remains free-flowing for shady buses and rip-off taxis at the expense of the rights of Italian tax-payers drivers like me.

I don't mind walking from the nearest garage to the Due Torri, but I'd rather have the option to drive there if I wanted to.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> Closing a street because it is too jammed is like stopping the production of the iPad because there is too many people willing to buy it.


Your analogy does not hold. You can enlarge the chain production of iPad if so many people want to buy it, but you cannot enlarge a road in the middle of a city.



> I don't oppose SMALL pedestrianized areas in narrow streets. But nothing justifies, like in Bologna, to introduce a ZTL in the main avenue, which remains free-flowing for shady buses and rip-off taxis at the expense of the rights of Italian tax-payers drivers like me.


I can see your point. Bologna central "T" (via Indipendenza and via Rizzoli/Bassi) are indeed large roads and someone can see their "ZTLness" as a waste.
I understand you are a urbanist and you can speak having knowledge of the facts.
I speak just as a citizen of Bologna, a driver who does NOT live in the centre, and I am happy the way things are right now. I can go to the centre by bus ("shady bus":?) walk freely without fear of being run over by some businessman driving Audi in a hurry, enjoy San Pietro and the neighbourhood.
And if they put more buses and trams the large roads of the central "T" will be busier and I will be even more satisfied.




> I don't mind walking from the nearest garage to the Due Torri, but I'd rather have the option to drive there if I wanted to.


If everyone could go in the centre of Bologna whenever they want, 1- there would be no parking for the residents, who are privileged and I am ok with that (they live there!), 2- Bologna centre would be a whole big traffic jam from 8am till 8pm.


But I think we made our points: let's hear what do other forumers think about it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Awesome. I made a video of A8 from Milano to Gallarate. 

What I didn't like was the turn from A50 to A8 from south to west. After you've left this massive toll plaza, you'll enter a very tight left-turn to merge with A8 just after their toll plaza. An easy place for queues. 

What is the speed limit on A8? I didn't notice any signs, so I guess it was 130 km/h, which surprised me considering A8 is very busy throughout the day. Most countries would impose a lower speed limit, like 100 or 110 km/h. The Tangenziale Ovest di Milano (A50) is limited at 90 km/h all the way if I'm correct. (which is too slow, 110 would be better). 

Although modern-day A8 doesn't resemble anything from the 1920's Autostrada (the first in Italy!), you can still see its dead-straight alignment between Milano and that big curve near Gallarate.

By the way, I noticed they are rebuilding the A8-A9 interchange near Lainate. Is that to accommodate the new lanes of A9? It looked like a fly-over from Gallarate to Como.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The last photo shows the HSL Milan-Turin passing over the A50 (in the background) and the SS33 (in the foreground, this one passes also under the A50).

http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...21563,9.062347&spn=0.010118,0.019205&t=h&z=16


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> By the way, I noticed they are rebuilding the A8-A9 interchange near Lainate. Is that to accommodate the new lanes of A9? It looked like a fly-over from Gallarate to Como.


Today the A9 merge on the A8 from the left. This will rebuilt, a bridge will bring the southbound A9 carriageway to the right so it can merge with the A8 from the right. The A9 from there until Como toll station is being enlarged to 3 lanes, and the section from A8-A9 interchange to A8-A50 interchange (and toll station) will be enlarged to 5 lanes.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> and the section from A8-A9 interchange to A8-A50 interchange (and toll station) will be enlarged to 5 lanes.


I've read about that. The works have started on A9, but not yet on A8, when will they start widening A8 to 2x5 lanes?


----------



## TohrAlkimista

The final project for the widening is under completion.
By the end of the year it will be presented to local authorities and probably, by the end of the next year, they will start with the preparatory works.


----------



## TohrAlkimista

BTW, as regards the A9, tomorrow I'll drive along that Autostrada and I'll have a look to the works involved.
Stay tuned.


----------



## TohrAlkimista

ChrisZwolle said:


> By the way, I noticed they are rebuilding the A8-A9 interchange near Lainate. Is that to accommodate the new lanes of A9? It looked like a fly-over from Gallarate to Como.


They'll re-design the interchange, completely.
The new merge from the A9 to the A8 will not be on the lane on the extreme left ("acceleration lane"), but on the extreme right, as it's supposed to be.


----------



## Mauz®

Eddard Stark said:


> A8+A4 around Milan


Wrong: there's no A4 in those photos.

-First pic: A8 crossing Lainate and separating the residential area by the industrial one. It's near the Villoresi channel.
-second pic: A8 near Lainate, just 1 or 2 KMs before the toll station. Easy to recognize the area thanks to that Autogrill rest area.
-third pic: the very intricate complex of interchanges near the new Fair of Milan. You can see the A50 just 1 or 2 KMs after the toll station of Terrazzano. You can also recognize the most recent part of the bypass of the new Fair of Milan, converging directly in the SS33 (Statale del Sempione). And you can also see the last stretch of the TAV (high speed railway) Torino-Milano.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Mauz® said:


> Wrong: there's no A4 in those photos.
> 
> -First pic: A8 crossing Lainate and separating the residential area by the industrial one. It's near the Villoresi channel.
> -second pic: A8 near Lainate, just 1 or 2 KMs before the toll station. Easy to recognize the area thanks to that Autogrill rest area.
> -third pic: the very intricate complex of interchanges near the new Fair of Milan. You can see the A50 just 1 or 2 KMs after the toll station of Terrazzano. You can also recognize the most recent part of the bypass of the new Fair of Milan, converging directly in the SS33 (Statale del Sempione). And you can also see the last stretch of the TAV (high speed railway) Torino-Milano.


I recognised the TAV so I thought the highway was A4, well...sorry


----------



## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> Although modern-day A8 doesn't resemble anything from the 1920's Autostrada (the first in Italy!), you can still see its dead-straight alignment between Milano and that big curve near Gallarate.


some would say the first of the world...all though as you know it's controversial


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Eddard Stark said:


> some would say the first of the world...all though as you know it's controversial


Yes. I've done some studying, but it remains hard to tell;

* 1908: Long Island Motor Parkway - single lane, but grade-separated
* 1921: AVUS (modern-day A115), Berlin - racetrack, not for all purpose traffic
* 1924: Autostrada dei Laghi - single lane, but completely grade-separated 
* 1925: Bronx River Parkway, New York - multilane, but not completely grade separated nor medians.
* 1932: A555 Köln - Bonn - multilane, no median
* 1935: A5 Frankfurt - Darmstad - multilane, grade separated, median, probably first modern motorway in the world.
* 1937: A12 Zoetermeer - Den Haag - multilane, grade separated, median, shoulders, first motorway to feature continuous shoulders

I think we can conclude A8 was the first road to be called an "Autostrada", but does not comply with modern-day Autostrada requirements (that is at least 2x2 lanes, median and grade separation).


----------



## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes. I've done some studying, but it remains hard to tell;
> 
> * 1908: Long Island Motor Parkway - single lane, but grade-separated
> * 1921: AVUS (modern-day A115), Berlin - racetrack, not for all purpose traffic
> * 1924: Autostrada dei Laghi - single lane, but completely grade-separated
> * 1925: Bronx River Parkway, New York - multilane, but not completely grade separated nor medians.
> * 1932: A555 Köln - Bonn - multilane, no median
> * 1935: A5 Frankfurt - Darmstad - multilane, grade separated, median, probably first modern motorway in the world.
> * 1937: A12 Zoetermeer - Den Haag - multilane, grade separated, median, shoulders, first motorway to feature continuous shoulders
> 
> I think we can conclude A8 was the first road to be called an "Autostrada", but does not comply with modern-day Autostrada requirements (that is at least 2x2 lanes, median and grade separation).


I think the main difference between before and after A8 is that A8 was dedicated exclusively to cars (for the time a new concept) and it was a road built with the modern (or old roman) concept of being an expressway rather than a road connecting multiple cities/villages. As a matter of fact, I believe it was also the first major "toll" road

That having being said, of course A8 of 1924 was not a modern highway as we call it, the german autobahn system was probably the first one


----------



## keber

Is there any redesign of A4-A8 interchange planned? I never liked to drive over that mess.


----------



## Eddard Stark

keber said:


> Is there any redesign of A4-A8 interchange planned? I never liked to drive over that mess.


NOt that we are aware of...


----------



## Verso

What's wrong with the A4-A8 interchange?


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> What's wrong with the A4-A8 interchange?


it is a little bit messy because many lanes merge, but merging areas are really long enough to merge without any problems. the only 2 things suspicious there are one left exit (direction San Siro - Torino) and one left connector (direction Bergamo - San Siro).

maybe he thought abou A4-A50 with that famous toll plaza  but in that case i doubt it is more complicated than A4-A52 with its toll plaza(s)


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## Suburbanist

a4 X a52 (tangenziale nord) is a weird one. And they don't provide easy A4 eastbound to A52 southbound access.


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## brewerfan386

Anyone have pics of the A-90 (Rome ringroad)?


----------



## keber

Verso said:


> What's wrong with the A4-A8 interchange?


Narrow and very curvy, with reduced number of lanes on main direction and without hard shoulders, and always I went through there were some works. It also (in my opinion) the most congested part of A4 in Milano.



> a4 X a52 (tangenziale nord) is a weird one. And they don't provide easy A4 eastbound to A52 southbound access.


Actually how do you do that? Do you go off the A52 and onto some side street and make a U turn? It just looks like so from the air.


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## Suburbanist

keber said:


> Actually how do you do that? Do you go off the A52 and onto some side street and make a U turn? It just looks like so from the air.


 well, theoretically ther should be no need for that turn as people driving on A4 westward would take the A51 then exit before then merge with the A52 few km to the south. This leaves such drivers unable to access exit Sesto San Giovanni. A massive industrial area nearby is underoging redevelopment, so that might become an issue in the medium-term future.


----------



## lucaf1

brewerfan386 said:


> Anyone have pics of the A-90 (Rome ringroad)?












http://www.matildi.com/lotto5.htm


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Video: A8 Milano - Gallarate*

The oldest Autostrada of Italy.






Stay tuned for more.


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## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> *Video: A8 Milano - Gallarate*
> 
> The oldest Autostrada of Italy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stay tuned for more.


great video!

Was this your second time on italian autostrade? you said before you only drove 3 km 

How did you find it?


----------



## Shezan

Eddard Stark said:


> A8+A4 around Milan


impressive interchange


----------



## 3naranze

head-on accident occured at 12.30 p.m. few days ago on the carriageway Conegliano-Pordenone of the A28 motorway, near Orsago. no seriously injuried drivers.
Oh I forgot, that section has been closed about 2 years ago to complete the last 4,5 km lot: the junction A27-A28 at Conegliano. 
that section works as construction site road...and it's 3,75+3,75+3,00=10,50 m wide! hno:
pics from _Il Gazzettino_


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## Eddard Stark

The project "Quadrilatero" which will complete the central italian "superstrade" network creating 2 routes connecting Toscana, Umbria and Marche

The project is U/C only for the main 2 routes, not the other ones

A third one is projected further north (Grosseto-Siena-Arezzo-Fano) but works are proceeding only on few parts



Piano Alto said:


> Una domanda: la diramazione verso Sarnano in che modo è coinvolta nel progetto?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting, I was just looking into this network, and notice the missing links in that area. The network seems more completed further north and west.


----------



## -Pino-

ChrisZwolle said:


> Interesting, I was just looking into this network, and notice the missing links in that area. The network seems more completed further north and west.


These links are in Apennine country, so it's expensive to cross while the bulk of the through traffic in this part of Italy is North-South anyway. But at least a couple of east-west crossings would come in handy, and there is none at motorway / expressway standard between Bologna - Rimini (which is not really an Apennine crossing) and Roma - Pescara.

Apart from the crossings posted above, they are also working on the E78 route from Grosseto to Fano. But that is a long, long, long story. Any Italian interested in telling the story of the Galleria de Guinza? Anyway, it's the tunnel to be used to cross the Apennines, they constructed one tube in the late 1990s and early 2000s, stopped construction for the second tube as a result of a lack of funds, and never opened the first tube because there is still no connection between the tunnel and the E45. In other words, you don't need the 'Ndrangheta to see Italian road construction at its worst.


----------



## Suburbanist

-Pino- said:


> These links are in Apennine country, so it's expensive to cross while the bulk of the through traffic in this part of Italy is North-South anyway. But at least a couple of east-west crossings would come in handy, and there is none at motorway / expressway standard between Bologna - Rimini (which is not really an Apennine crossing) and Roma - Pescara.


I'm too tired for that, but I dare to remember of the SS3Bis, an almost-highway Apenine crossing :cheers:


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> I'm too tired for that, but I dare to remember of the SS3Bis, an almost-highway Apenine crossing :cheers:


But he was talking about East-West connections... SS3bis is North-South...


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> But he was talking about East-West connections... SS3bis is North-South...


Yes, you are right. Sorry.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Pictures of a small piece of "Quadrilatero" alredy opened, this is SS77 (I think Muccia-Collesentino piece)



marco1963 said:


> Eccovi finalmente le foto scattate dal sottoscritto due giorni fa (cliccare per ingrandire) del tratto attualmente denominato “Variante SS77”, da località Valdiea al bivio “Maddalena” (comune di Muccia) dove comincia la 209 della Val Nerina, inaugurato lo scorso dicembre.
> Qui siamo in galleria, purtroppo è scattato il flash, si nota comunque l’ampiezza della banchina:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Galleria e galleria semiartificiale:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ancora un tratto con due gallerie artificiali in sequenza:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eccolo lì, il logo Quadrilatero :banana:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Un tratto all'aperto, e l'imbocco delle gallerie finali, prima del ritorno sulla vecchia SS77 al bivio di Maddalena/Muccia direzione Foligno, si nota la larghezza delle banchine (quasi una corsia d'emergenza) nonché delle carreggiate, e comunque ci sono molti spazi "di servizio":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Appena trovo il tempo, le foto dei cantieri da Muccia fino all'innesto con la SS3 a Foligno


----------



## -Pino-

Suburbanist said:


> the SS3Bis, an almost-highway Apenine crossing


Expressway standard, so if it wasn't for the North-South direction, it would have been caught in the description of my earlier post. I drove the SS3bis / E45 once, and it was a pleasant drive. Probably due to the fact that it was on a Saturday morning with hardly any traffic at all. I hope the road will get a decent upgrade shortly to become part of a new A2 all the way from Mestre to Orte.


----------



## Verso

New Italian expressways seem to be quite good, they even have some hard shoulder. Same with the new expressway south of Trieste (two-year-old), which is wider than our continuation. I just hope they will be maintained.


----------



## g.spinoza

SS76 which is part of the Quadrilatero project as the SS77 is already built for the bigger part (40km from Falconara Marittima to Serra San Quirico and another 10 km or so around Fabriano). Unfortunately the first 40km were built in the '70s I believe, so narrow lanes and no shoulder at all. They just renovated a 2 km section between Monsano and Chiaravalle and it's amazing, wider lanes, hard shoulder, new generation side barriers.
Unfortunately, it's just 2km  I'd love if they renovate the whole SS76, but I think it's not going to happen anytime soon


----------



## Eddard Stark

g.spinoza said:


> SS76 which is part of the Quadrilatero project as the SS77 is already built for the bigger part (40km from Falconara Marittima to Serra San Quirico and another 10 km or so around Fabriano). Unfortunately the first 40km were built in the '70s I believe, so narrow lanes and no shoulder at all. They just renovated a 2 km section between Monsano and Chiaravalle and it's amazing, wider lanes, hard shoulder, new generation side barriers.
> Unfortunately, it's just 2km  I'd love if they renovate the whole SS76, but I think it's not going to happen anytime soon


I think after finishing the new sections of both superstrade the old ones will be renovated, it makes sense


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ It makes sense, but the renovation of the existing pieces of SS76 is not in the Quadrilatero Project. For SS76 the Project consists only in the construction of the second carriageway between Serra San Quirico and Albacina and from Cancelli di Fabriano to the Umbrian border (almost 20 km in total)... works were due to start in november 2009 but as of now they still aren't.


----------



## Eddard Stark

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ It makes sense, but the renovation of the existing pieces of SS76 is not in the Quadrilatero Project. For SS76 the Project consists only in the construction of the second carriageway between Serra San Quirico and Albacina and from Cancelli di Fabriano to the Umbrian border (almost 20 km in total)... works were due to start in november 2009 but as of now they still aren't.


Serra San Quirico-Albacina is U/C in the latest updates we had. The rest in reality should be U/C as it is so on the website. However people travelling there say there is no sign of constructions.

Anyway I know the old parts of SS76 and 77 anre not part of Quadrilatero, but neither should they. I am just saying after the project will be finished it will be not too difficult to find a few millions to upgrade hard shoulder and protections of the old sections of the 2 superstrade


----------



## g.spinoza

Eddard Stark said:


> Serra San Quirico-Albacina is U/C in the latest updates we had. The rest in reality should be U/C as it is so on the website. However people travelling there say there is no sign of constructions.


I know the area very well since I was born and raised there and my parents still live at 5 km from Serra San Quirico. In Serra San Quirico-Albacina there is _no sign_ on costruction whatsoever: the original plan was to build the second carriageway in tunnel on the other side of the narrow "Gola della Rossa" gorge, with respect to the first carriageway, already present. Problem is that on that side of the gorge the railway is present, and project of doubling the line are already ongoing. So basically they had to redo completely the plan in order to allow the doubling of the railway line. I don't know what current plans are, but there isn't much space in that particular spot.




> Anyway I know the old parts of SS76 and 77 anre not part of Quadrilatero, but neither should they. I am just saying after the project will be finished it will be not too difficult to find a few millions to upgrade hard shoulder and protections of the old sections of the 2 superstrade


Sure you are right, but honestly I don't think they will do it in a short time. The doubling of Gola della Rossa will be much more costly than previously thought, and the rest of SS76 is for large part in viaducts...


----------



## WalkTheWorld

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes. I've done some studying, but it remains hard to tell;
> 
> * 1908: Long Island Motor Parkway - single lane, but grade-separated
> * 1921: AVUS (modern-day A115), Berlin - racetrack, not for all purpose traffic
> * 1924: Autostrada dei Laghi - single lane, but completely grade-separated
> * 1925: Bronx River Parkway, New York - multilane, but not completely grade separated nor medians.
> * 1932: A555 Köln - Bonn - multilane, no median
> * 1935: A5 Frankfurt - Darmstad - multilane, grade separated, median, probably first modern motorway in the world.
> * 1937: A12 Zoetermeer - Den Haag - multilane, grade separated, median, shoulders, first motorway to feature continuous shoulders
> 
> I think we can conclude A8 was the first road to be called an "Autostrada", but does not comply with modern-day Autostrada requirements (that is at least 2x2 lanes, median and grade separation).


And still nobody says for the_ n_-time that your movie also includes the oldest Autogrill in the nation!


----------



## -Pino-

There is a situation with a 3-laned motorway in the figure, see "installazione a portale su tre corsie". That is indeed one arrow per lane, and that is exactly the problem. Because what you are doing in this type of situation is signposting for the upcoming fourth lane, the off-ramp. So the arrow for the off-ramp is then above the right-hand lane instead of where one would expect it to be, namely to the right of the right-hand lane. In doing so, the signage suggests that the right-hand lane can only be used to take the exit, whilst it can also be used and it will actually be used to stay on the road.

Once there is an off-ramp, you end up in the situations described as "installazione su portale con bandiera" and every lane indeed gets its own arrow, as is shown in the second photo above. The problem is in the AD signs and in ID sign placed just before the start of the off-ramp.


----------



## lucaf1

I was mistaken.

In the figure ''installazione a portale su quattro corsie'' we can have:

1) 4 lanes
2) 4 lanes + off-ramp

In the first case signal used is "preavviso" (see 246 art. 126) so one arrow one lane; in the second case signal used is ''direzione'' (see 252 art. 128) so 3 arrows 4 lanes and one arrow for the beginning of off-ramp. This because arrows on signals *have to stay in the middle of the lane* (tabella II.25 dell'art 128 del regolamento di attuazione del codice della strada:_ ''la punta delle frecce deve coincidere sensibilmente con l'asse delle corsie'_') and arrows of the off-ramp have to stay where there is the beginning (or a little before) of the broken line (so over the right-hand lane), see:










By the way IMHO law is not clear: in the figures is not clear if there are 3 lanes + 1 off ramp.

For example, here:










ok 3 lanes but 2 lanes+off-ramp or 3 lanes?


----------



## Suburbanist

If you pay attention, you will notice that the first sign directs people heading to the exit to the right lane, people travelling onward to the central and right lanes. Further on, another sign indicates the exit. That is the reasoning - but it is messy nonetheless -.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

hofburg said:


> I exagerated of course, but difference is pretty big. but mostly due to good motorways.


I don't know... there is huge difference between superstrade: you can find wide ones and well maintened, and narrow ones with bad maintenance


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A21 Alessandria - Tortona*

A short section of Autostrada A21 between Alessandria and Tortona.

route:









1. 

ch 852 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. Alessandria-Ovest

ch 853 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3. 

ch 854 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

ch 855 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5. Alessandria-Est

ch 856 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6. 

ch 857 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

ch 858 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

ch 859 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

ch 860 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

ch 861 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

ch 862 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

ch 863 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

ch 864 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

ch 865 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

ch 866 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## piotr71

I really like gantries over this motorway. Pictures - perfect as usual


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A21 Alessandria - Tortona*
> 14.
> 
> ch 865 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


While interesting overhead signage constructions, is really necessary to put such expensive things for just two ordinary signs?


----------



## Suburbanist

keber said:


> While interesting overhead signage constructions, is really necessary to put such expensive things for just two ordinary signs?


Italians are fond of design.

The L'Austostrade per l'Italia wanted to make a showcase for "this is your toll money being invested in a highway better than French ones" (they used to have an area on their website dedicated to promote comparisons of toll prices and amenities with other privatized systems, French were the favorite picks for that).


----------



## lucaf1

today ANAS has published in the Official Journal details for the provision of infrastructures of ''free-flow'' system


----------



## keber

Suburbanist said:


> The L'Austostrade per l'Italia wanted to make a showcase for "this is your toll money being invested in a highway better than French ones"


Investing into longer and wider exit lanes instead into big portal constructions wouldn't harm, also.


----------



## Suburbanist

keber said:


> Investing into longer and wider exit lanes instead into big portal constructions wouldn't harm, also.


Agreed 110%. But their cost is on a higher magnitude than fancy signposts and sing portals.


----------



## Eddard Stark

keber said:


> Investing into longer and wider exit lanes instead into big portal constructions wouldn't harm, also.


like they are not doing it...every single third/fourth lane means the entire system is upgraded

Right now there are plans for these upgrades on most of the network


----------



## Mauz®

Eddard Stark said:


> like they are not doing it...


Eddard, non sempre si può tradurre letteralmente dall'italiano! 

Per dire "in bocca al lupo" che avresti scritto? "In the mouth of the wolf"?


----------



## Eddard Stark

Mauz® said:


> Eddard, non sempre si può tradurre letteralmente dall'italiano!
> 
> Per dire "in bocca al lupo" che avresti scritto? "In the mouth of the wolf"?


vabbè mi è scappato...e pensare che ho pure la moglie ammerigana:bash::bash:


----------



## Mauz®

Ma sì... ti ho beccato solo perchè questa era troppo succulenta!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

parlare inglese, per favore


----------



## CNGL

^^ Your forgot to write "Per San Vicente de Montalto" (Sant Vicenç de Montalt, town in Spain) :lol:


----------



## Mauz®

ChrisZwolle said:


> parlare inglese, per favore


Sorry! I was telling Eddard Stark that it's not always possible to translate literally from Italian language to English.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Video: A7 Tortona - Milano*

My latest video from Italy:


----------



## keber

^^ And Netherlanders united in the end.:lol:

Typically Italian, many drivers don't want to move away from the middle lane onto empty right one.


----------



## Eddard Stark

keber said:


> ^^ And Netherlanders united in the end.:lol:
> 
> Typically Italian, many drivers don't want to move away from the middle lane onto empty right one.


edit


----------



## -Pino-

keber said:


> Typically Italian, many drivers don't want to move away from the middle lane onto empty right one.


Ah well, that has often enabled me to use a quicker lane for overtaking than the most inner lane. Namely the empty right-hand lane.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A7 Tortona - Milano*

Autostrada A7 from the A26 near Tortona to the Tangenziale Ovest in Milano. This motorway opened op 10 September 1960. 

route:









1. 

ch 869 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2.

ch 870 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.

ch 872 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

ch 873 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.

ch 875 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

ch 876 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

ch 878 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

ch 879 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

ch 880 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

ch 883 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

ch 884 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

ch 885 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

ch 886 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

ch 887 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

ch 888 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.

ch 889 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.

ch 890 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.

ch 892 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19. 

ch 894 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.

ch 896 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21. Many blind in Milano :lol:

ch 897 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## keber

-Pino- said:


> Ah well, that has often enabled me to use a quicker lane for overtaking than the most inner lane. Namely the empty right-hand lane.


Yeah, but it is not allowed. Usually then the police will fine you as a right lane overtaker and not the one on the middle lane holding their position.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Yeah, but it is not allowed. Usually then the police will fine you as a right lane overtaker and not the one on the middle lane holding their position.


That's not exactly true. You cannot overtake in the right lane (i.e. being on the middle lane, going to the right lane to overtake), but if you already are in the right lane you actually can.


----------



## Suburbanist

*SS-682*

SS-682 is a 1+1 highway, completely grade-separated and built to 90km/h speed limits linking Ionian and Tyrrhenian coasts in Calabria.

It features Italia's second longest viaduct, Sciarapotamo, with total length 5.130m.


----------



## Suburbanist

*Viadotto Morandi, Catanzaro*

Maximum height: 110m


----------



## Suburbanist

*RA-2 (Raccordo Autostradale Salerno-Avellino)*

A highway connector for A3, A30 and A16. It doesn't actually connects to A16, so one needs to drive a couple km in grade-separated roads in Avellino to get to Avellino Est junction on A16 (or the other way around).

The shorter sector from between A30 and A3 is heavily trafficked, outdated and needs reconstruction and widening.


----------



## Suburbanist

*Old Italian sign*

Probably from the 70's


----------



## Suburbanist

*Badia Tedalda - Borgo Pace county road*

Some highways needs widening, this county road needs paving for its inner sector :lol:

Picturesque county road near the Marche-Toscana regional border. Marche sector is completely paved, last km on Toscana side are not.










Typical km marker on non-highway roads. They are better than highway km markers IMO.




































Paved sector begins. However, the gravel sector is wider than the paved sector. Who understands why... :bash:




































View from the summit


----------



## Suburbanist

*SS-17 approaching Isernia*

Oversize typeface sign... Impossible to miss the big city of ISERNIA.










Long-term construction activity ongoing for SS-17. It is important because it intersects many trasn-Apennines routes. Some sectors (like one just before this sign) are opened already as 1+1 superstrade-standard roads.


----------



## x-type

those roads (post #1966) are very nice to drive. i drove at Sardegna SS199/SS597 and SS389 roads like that, you can easily keep 120 km/h there and overtaking is really rare because everybody keep the higher speed.

btw, i have noticed this viaduct in Cantazano sooner already, it's fascinating!


----------



## Verso

"V" in oval missing. 









_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/11404350 by Mauro Ferrari (Uruguay)_


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

keber said:


> Typically Italian, many drivers don't want to move away from the middle lane onto empty right one.


True... I think this behaviour is due to the high number of trucks respect other countries: so if you drive on the right lane you have often to move on central lane to overcome the trucks; easier to move on central lane directly... unfortunately many drivers use to drive that way even when the right lane is empty


----------



## christos-greece

A7 Tortona - Milano motorway south of Tortona goes directly to Livorno - Pisa, or need to change road, motorway to go there?


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> That's not exactly true. You cannot overtake in the right lane (i.e. being on the middle lane, going to the right lane to overtake), but if you already are in the right lane you actually can.


Are you sure, because this is not usual for other countries in Europe? I don't want to pay any fine next time I'm going on (let say) A4 next time. On weekends there is not much traffic, but many drivers surf on middle lane(s), although right one can be empty even for kilometres. Going steady with cruise control and changing two or even three lanes and then back because of only one car is ridiculous.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Articles 143 and 148 of italian street code and "decreto legge" 214/03 regulate this matter and state that you can only overtake on the left. But according to a recent regulation by Polizia Stradale the overtaking on the right is still "illegal" but it will not be sanctioned. 

However, I think it will be up to the single policeman to enforce this, so it can be risky.


----------



## Coccodrillo

christos-greece said:


> A7 Tortona - Milano motorway south of Tortona goes directly to Livorno - Pisa, or need to change road, motorway to go there?


You have to change to A12. Pay attention is quite confusing: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...44.440521,8.889141&spn=0.082484,0.153637&z=13

But I suppose a route via A1, A15 and A12 is less congested.


----------



## 3naranze

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Articles 143 and 148 of italian street code and "decreto legge" 214/03 regulate this matter and state that you can only overtake on the left. But according to a recent regulation by Polizia Stradale *the overtaking on the right is still "illegal" but it will not be sanctioned.*
> 
> However, I think it will be up to the single policeman to enforce this, so it can be risky.


I'd like to point out that overtaking is passing another vehicle by changing lane. According italian road traffic code, you must drive on the right lane, the other ones are reserved to overtake - on the left - slow vehicles; this to prevent dangerous zig-zag driving. So, if you are driving on a lane while the right one is empty, you'll be fined 33 euros (and 4 points less on your driving license credit - italians only). *therefore, passing alongside slow vehicles on the left lane while you're still driving on the right lane is correct! *


----------



## christos-greece

Suburbanist said:


> Oversize typeface sign... Impossible to miss the big city of ISERNIA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Long-term construction activity ongoing for SS-17. It is important because it intersects many trasn-Apennines routes. Some sectors (like one just before this sign) are opened already as 1+1 superstrade-standard roads.


The town/city of Isernia how big it is? I saw that town in google maps few weeks ago

@Coccodrillo: Thanks for the info


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Articles 143 and 148 of italian street code and "decreto legge" 214/03 regulate this matter and state that you can only overtake on the left. But according to a recent regulation by Polizia Stradale the overtaking on the right is still "illegal" but it will not be sanctioned.


Never heard about it... I don't think it works this way: for what i know overtaking on the right is illegal and sanctionable


----------



## keber

3naranze said:


> I'd like to point out that overtaking is passing another vehicle by changing lane. According italian road traffic code, you must drive on the right lane, the other ones are reserved to overtake - on the left - slow vehicles; this to prevent dangerous zig-zag driving. So, if you are driving on a lane while the right one is empty, you'll be fined 33 euros (and 4 points less on your driving license credit - italians only). *therefore, passing alongside slow vehicles on the left lane while you're still driving on the right lane is correct! *


Any official explanation or traffic code on the net? It can be in Italian language, especially the *bold *part.


----------



## Suburbanist

keber said:


> Any official explanation or traffic code on the net? It can be in Italian language, especially the *bold *part.


I've read both aforementioned articles (143 and 148) and found nothing. The closest it gets is this:

Art. 148 c. 5, 6:



> 6. Sulle carreggiate ad almeno due corsie per ogni senso di marcia il conducente che, dopo aver eseguito un sorpasso, sia indotto a sorpassare un altro veicolo o animale, può rimanere sulla corsia impegnata per il primo sorpasso a condizione che la manovra non sia di intralcio ai veicoli più rapidi che sopraggiungono da tergo.
> 
> 7. Il sorpasso deve essere effettuato a destra quando il conducente del veicolo che si vuole sorpassare abbia segnalato che intende svoltare a sinistra ovvero, in una carreggiata a senso unico, che intende arrestarsi a sinistra, e abbia iniziato dette manovre.


#6 says "in carriageways with at least 2 lanes per direction, the driver who, after having completed an overtake, intents to overtake another vehicle or animal, may keep the vehicle in the lane used for the first overtake, as long as the maneuver doesn't block faster vehicles coming from behind".

#7 says "the overtake shall be completed on the right when the driver of the vehicle intended to be overpassed had signaled that he/she intents to turn left or, in a one-way carriageway, that he/she intents to stop on the left and is already conducting a stop maneuver".

A far-stretched combination of #6 and #7 would suggest that it would be possible to pass on the left, but this would apply only to roads where there are exists on the left and, after passing a vehicle turning left by its right (allowed by 7) , you stays in the same right lane used for passing to overtake a second vehicle travelling on the left lane (#6).

#7 is meant to accommodate one-way roads and urban avenues with parking on both sides, or turning lanes. There are few circumstances in which a highway has an exit on the left, and, to the extent of my knowledge, no highway with shoulder or parking area on the left as to allow the application of this "comma".


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## 3naranze

*overtacking on Autostrade italiane*


this text is available in italian only, at present.
(Italian police forum web site is even under maintenance!) It points out what is overtacking (=sorpassare) and what is passing alongside(=superare) while you're driving on italian motorways, according italian road traffic code (articolo 143, modified by legge 214/2003).


----------



## Suburbanist

3naranze said:


> this text is available in italian only, at present.
> 
> 
> 
> Chi provenendo da dietro si trova sulla corsia di destra, che è libera davanti a se, e trova occupata quella alla sua sinistra, può legittimamente proseguire la marcia su quella corsia senza con ciò incorrere nella violazione prescritta per il sorpasso a destra, perché sta semplicemente effettuando il superamento di un veicolo che è in contravvenzione, cioè si sta tenendo a sinistra nonostante ci sia una corsia libera a destra sulla carreggiata
> 
> 
> 
> (Italian police forum web site is even under maintenance!) It points out what is overtacking (=sorpassare) and what is passing alongside(=superare) while you're driving on italian motorways, according italian road traffic code..
Click to expand...

I understand it now. It is argued that if a FASTER vehicle is travelling on the RIGHT lane and a SLOWER vehicle is driving on the LEFT lane, if the left lane is otherwise free the slower vehicle is violating the road code in the sense that it is not driving on the right lane. Then, the "keep on right at constant speed and pass" maneuver becomes legal because the driver is avoiding an irregular situation (slower vehicle on left) created by someone else.

The text also discuss the technicality of "overtaking". It must comprise a change of lane before passing the other vehicle. Hence, a driver who stays in his/her lane cannot be fined for overtaking on right if he/she was already on the right, as a change of lane is an essential element to characterize an overtake. Changing from middle lane to right lane to overtake is illegal though. Do it twice within 24 months and get your license suspended from 1 to 3 months.


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## nestea_lemon

^^ No, you must not, ever, pass a car on the right side. Always on the left side, that's why it's called a "passing lane". That's illegal and you can cause an accident. Perhaps the car in front of you sees you and wants to clear the lane in the last moment and turns right and then BAM!


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## Suburbanist

^^ I agree with you over the safety issue. Yet I was pointing technicalities of the law. Some drivers will not move out of right lane.


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## keber

OK, grazie.

Now I see I can pass vehicles on right lane without making infractions.:cheers:

Just another question: I see, that above article was written in October 2003, when they passed a new traffic code. But I remember, that later even newer traffic code was accepted (in 2007 or 2008, don't remember exactly). Is above information about passing on right lane still valid even under new code?


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ AFAIK, no changes affected regulations of moving traffic. The legal text I attached above is up-to-date.


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## 3naranze

^^modifications didn't affect those norms regulating driving on _autostrade_


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A50 - Tangenziale Ovest di Milano*

A bunch of pictures from the western ringroad of Milano.

1. 

ch 899 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. 

ch 901 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.

ch 902 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

ch 903 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.

ch 904 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

ch 905 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

ch 906 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

ch 907 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

ch 909 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

ch 910 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

ch 911 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

ch 912 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

ch 913 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

ch 914 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

ch 915 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.

ch 916 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.

ch 918 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.

ch 919 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.

ch 920 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.

ch 921 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21.

ch 922 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22.

ch 923 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

23.

ch 924 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

24

ch 925 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## Mauz®

keber said:


> OK, grazie.
> 
> Now I see I can pass vehicles on right lane without making infractions.:cheers:


My advice is not to do it. I wouldn't be suprised if even the Italian policemen don't know it.  


ChrisZwolle said:


> *A50 - Tangenziale Ovest di Milano*
> 
> A bunch of pictures from the western ringroad of Milano.
> 
> 1.
> 
> ch 899 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


In this photo, where you see the Autogrill headquarter, is where I work (not in the Autogrill headquarter, but in a separate building close to it).


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Some pic of Milano East bypass by gruber



gruber said:


> Monluè, 29 agosto 2010.
> Foto scattata dalla T.Est
> 
> 
> 
> Tangenziale Est, 29 agosto 2010


----------



## Eddard Stark

christos-greece said:


> The town/city of Isernia how big it is? I saw that town in google maps few weeks ago
> 
> @Coccodrillo: Thanks for the info


20K...I think the smallest capital of an italian province...maybe Sardinia excluded


----------



## brick84

This is an old news, anyway interessant: :cheers:



> *Infrastructure: the gallery of the motorway Catania-Syracuse St. Demetrius has received the highest score in Test Euro Tap*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Published *by peppecaridi *on 26 August, 2010
> 
> The President Anas Pietro Ciucci, "We are proud of this prestigious award which rewards all of South Italy" - For the first time since they were established rigorous testing Euro Tap on tunnel safety in Europe, an Italian gallery has earned the assessment maximum 'excellent'. *This gallery of St. Demetrius, on the motorway Catania-Syracuse, Anas management, which is the longest of Sicily (3 km) and has the latest technology in security. Euro Tap Tests are executed by a consortium comprising specialized engineers and 15 of the main European automobile clubs, including the ACI is also included*.
> Video surveillance, alarm and ventilation, fire safety exits and an organizational system, manned 24 hours by 24 trained staff, have enabled St. Demetrius of becoming the first Italian gallery to deserve better.
> 
> "Anas is proud of this achievement - said President Pietro Ciucci -. Gallery St. Demetrius was built with the latest technology to offer users the highest security standards. This is an important milestone for the company. "
> 
> Ciucci The President stressed that "the vote" very good "given to this gallery is a recognition of our activities and is due to careful planning that provides the most advanced ventilation systems, SOS, remote control, panels variable message signs and lighting, all arranged and dimensioned in accordance with the Guidelines for Safety in Galleria ANAS transposing, and in some respects exceeds the latest European regulations on safety. User safety is also ensured by constant monitoring of traffic, which uses a surveillance system directly linked to a control room located in the Passo Martino where 24 received 24-hour, real-time images for across the highway. "
> 
> "In particular - said the President Anas - in a tunnel between the devices used, there are guide lights that indicate the path to be followed in case of evacuation via escape routes illuminated by tubular bodies with LED light sources. The cameras are able to assess the presence of smoke in the tunnel, thus anticipating the detection of optical cable fire, the presence of stationary vehicles or against traffic or unusual traffic conditions. In case of fire inside the tunnel, as well as modern detection systems and smoke ventilation, were made airtight rooms where oxygen supply is ensured with a range of 36 hours. "
> 
> The Chairman Pietro Ciucci concluded that: "The Catania-Syracuse, is the most technologically modern highway in Europe and was built with hi-tech and environmentally friendly. But what I'm even more proud is that Anas has built the motorway Catania-Syracuse in an environmentally and in record time, with a total investment of 723 million (funded in part by the European Commission) demonstrating that even in our South can produce works and modern art. "


Source: http://peppecaridi2.wordpress.com/2...a-ricevuto-il-voto-piu-alto-ai-test-euro-tap/


----------



## Eddard Stark

Meanwhile still in Sicily constructions continue to upgrade the sicilian network

The pictures refer to SS640, which connects Agrigento and its temples to the autostrade network (near Caltanissetta). The SS is being upgraded to "superstrada" level

Many thanks to Alicata Dilecta which took the photos



Alicata Dilecta said:


> finalmente ecco alcune foto scattate lo scorso sabato. le immagini riguardano la parte finale del primo lotto,tra canicatti nord e grottarossa,come potete notare i lavori precedono. una prossima volta vedro' di focalizzare la tratta da canicatti verso agrigento,dove i lavori sono sostanzialmente andando avanti. inoltre inseriro' a breve le foto dei lavori del raddoppio ferroviario fiumetorto-cefalu' alla prossima....


----------



## Eddard Stark

Yesterday the ministry of transports confirmed all constructions of A12 (Roma-Genova) which is still incomplete between Rosignano and Civitavecchia, will start within 2011

It seems optymistic to me, but he also confirmed that the next piece (Civitavecchia-Tarquinia) will start end of 2010

The route is a foundamental gap of the italian instrastructure and is basically the main "Tyrrhenian" route between Rome, Genova and southern France


----------



## CNGL

But... There's superstrada almost all the way... Only Civitavecchia-Tarquinia isn't superstrada as far as I know (According to my Italian road atlas again).


----------



## x-type

CNGL said:


> But... There's superstrada almost all the way... Only Civitavecchia-Tarquinia isn't superstrada as far as I know (According to my Italian road atlas again).


well, now it will be superstrada wit shoulders. tolled


----------



## Suburbanist

CNGL said:


> But... There's superstrada almost all the way... Only Civitavecchia-Tarquinia isn't superstrada as far as I know (According to my Italian road atlas again).


There are other non-2x2 sectors and at-grade junctions:

- more than *60 (sixty)* side access (from farms, local roads etc.) that don't cross the median (requiring turn-backs at the nearest exits). All of them will have to be rerouted or diverted to feeder/collector/frontage roads.

- level-junction at Montalto Marina: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...8815,11.631094&spn=0.003236,0.005246&t=k&z=18

- level-junction at Pescia Romana: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...5287,11.518736&spn=0.012931,0.020986&t=h&z=16

- 1+1 sector from Garavicchio to La Torba 

- very substandard exits like this at Santa Maria di Ripescia: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...4775,11.139547&spn=0.006433,0.010493&t=h&z=17


----------



## -Pino-

Good news that at least that missing link in the superstrada will now be filled. Even though I do agree that the route between Tarquinia and Grosseto requires an upgrade to get to superstrada level. And when you're doing that, a tolled motorway makes a much more pleasant drive at a comparable investment.

Regarding the remaining 200 kilometers to Livorno, any clue what exact route was eventually selected? A while ago, there was discussion about the choice between a route more or less following the current Aurelia or a route more inland.


----------



## Suburbanist

// double post, sorry /


----------



## Eddard Stark

-Pino- said:


> Good news that at least that missing link in the superstrada will now be filled. Even though I do agree that the route between Tarquinia and Grosseto requires an upgrade to get to superstrada level. And when you're doing that, a tolled motorway makes a much more pleasant drive at a comparable investment.
> 
> Regarding the remaining 200 kilometers to Livorno, any clue what exact route was eventually selected? A while ago, there was discussion about the choice between a route more or less following the current Aurelia or a route more inland.


It's intricate...apparently it will be very close or over current Aurelia

The internal route has been pushed away


----------



## Suburbanist

Eddard Stark said:


> It's intricate...apparently it will be very close or over current Aurelia
> 
> The internal route has been pushed away


We could come with a situation like A14 near Bari:

- an old, Roman-era, 1+1 road
- a newer 2+2 expressway, substandard
- an autostrada


----------



## -Pino-

On the stretch South of Grosseto, the old 1+1 road is missing. There is just the current 2+2 road. You can't do without that existing road, as it would leave farms and slower traffic without a connection to the outside world. I can imagine that road to be downgraded though. For a 2+2 road, it is rather narrow. Making it 1+2 with a possibility to turn left seems a sensible option.

North of Grosseto, a full upgrade of the existing superstrada would be feasible, as there is the old 1+1 road anyway. Where the existing superstrada is bypassed, you might indeed end up with the Bari situation you describe.


----------



## keber

Suburbanist said:


> - level-junction at Montalto Marina: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...8815,11.631094&spn=0.003236,0.005246&t=k&z=18
> 
> - level-junction at Pescia Romana: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...5287,11.518736&spn=0.012931,0.020986&t=h&z=16
> 
> - very substandard exits like this at Santa Maria di Ripescia: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...4775,11.139547&spn=0.006433,0.010493&t=h&z=17


All of those look much improved in Google Street View. No level junctions anymore.


----------



## -Pino-

Still as level as can be. You just can't turn left anymore, but that's only a partial solution, not superstrada standard.


----------



## christos-greece

In Italy motorways have 2x2 or 3x3 lanes in some areas, cities...
do you have motorways with 4x4 lanes? Probably in big cities like Roma, Milano...


----------



## Suburbanist

christos-greece said:


> In Italy motorways have 2x2 or 3x3 lanes in some areas, cities...
> do you have motorways with 4x4 lanes? Probably in big cities like Roma, Milano...


I guess you meant 2X4.

A1 Bologna-Modena is 2X4, so is A4 Milano-Bergamo and A8 Milano-A9jct. I'm not sure about any other 2X4 highway in Italy.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Actualli Bologna-Modena is a 2+4+4+2


----------



## lucaf1

AUTOSTRADE A QUATTRO CORSIE

A1 Milano - Napoli 33,9
A8/A9 Milano-Laghi 10,0
A4 Milano - Brescia 33,6

TOTALE A QUATTRO CORSIE 77,5

http://www.aiscat.it/pubblicazioni/downloads/trim_3_4_2009.pdf


----------



## christos-greece

Suburbanist said:


> I guess you meant 2X4.
> 
> A1 Bologna-Modena is 2X4, so is A4 Milano-Bergamo and A8 Milano-A9jct. I'm not sure about any other 2X4 highway in Italy.


Thanks for the info guys
@lucaf1: the site you posted is not working btw


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ It is for me. Maybe it's because it has a .pdf extension and you security software blocks it. Try the shorter link: http://www.aiscat.it The attached PDF, by the way, is an excellent summary of the Italian network. Written in Italian, but graphs/maps accessible anyway.

Some key figures, for fun:

*Total motorway network length*: 6.661km
of which NOT under private (tolled) administration (ANAS highways): 905km

Under construction and planned new motorways: 677km

2X3 motorways: 1625km
2+3 motorways: 7km
2X4 motorways: 78km

*International tunnel traffic *(AADT 2009)
Fréjus: 4.240
San Bernardo: 1.586
Monte Bianco/Mont Blanc: 4.747

Highest AADT for comprehensive sector (not just urban ones) on private network
A4 Milano-Brescia: 108.975

Lowest AADT for comprehensive sector on private network
A33: 6.741 (but it's a highway u/c)
A5: 9.171 (Aosta-French border)

Highest assistance intervention rate for road assistance due to breakdowns (per vehicleXkm):
A1 Firenze-Bologna (4.95 / 1000000 vehXkm)


Lowest assistance intervention rate for road assistance due to breakdowns (per vehicleXkm):
A4 Padova-Mestre (0.56 / 1000000 vehXkm)

If reading the article, bear in mind that the "veicoli effettivi" represents the total # of vehicles that used a given sector, even between just two exits. So by comparing that data to the AADT you can have an idea of the length of vehicle trips by sector (for the international tunnels, both numbers will be identical for obvious reasons).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A8 Milano - Gallarate*

Some pictures of the oldest Autostrada of Italy, opened in 1924. 

1.
ch 926 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2.
ch 927 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.
ch 928 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.
ch 929 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.
ch 930 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.
ch 931 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.
ch 932 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.
ch 933 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.
ch 934 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10. Monte Rosa.
ch 936 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11. Tutor
ch 937 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12. 
ch 939 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.
ch 940 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.
ch 941 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.
ch 942 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.
ch 943 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.
ch 944 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18. 
ch 946 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.
ch 948 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.
ch 950 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21.
ch 952 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22.
ch 954 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

23.
ch 956 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Diramazione A8/A26 Gallarate - Gravellona Toce*

Continuation from the batch above.

24. 
ch 957 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

25. 
ch 958 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

26.
ch 961 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

27.
ch 962 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

28. 
ch 964 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

29.
ch 965 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

30.
ch 968 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

31.
ch 969 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

32. 2x3 
ch 971 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

33. 
ch 972 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

34.
ch 975 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

35.
ch 976 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

36.
ch 978 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

37.
ch 979 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

38.
ch 980 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

39.
ch 981 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## TohrAlkimista

Thank you very much for your great pictures!!


----------



## hofburg

was this your route to Geneve?


----------



## CNGL

No, Chris was camped "in the brig" (Brig, CH) and he was returning there. And the location's name explains why I want to see Chris banned next year.


----------



## brick84

*Sicily, Getting ready for the first sun-powered highway*

*Rome, Oct 2 (Il Velino) *- It is the highway of the sun but it's the first highway completely powered by the sun. Countdown is almost complete for *the A18 Catania-Syracuse*, from 1 January 2011, will produce energy from photovoltaic panels, capable of making the highway Sicilian energy self-sufficient. Lights, fans in the tunnels, road signs, telephones for emergency calls, will it work with all solar panels. The highway solar development capacity of 12 million kWh per year, will be tested by November, to be ready by early next year. Thirty kilometers totally powered by the sun. "The total electricity used for all services necessary for the operation of the entire structure - announced Pizzarotti & C, the construction company based in Parma - 80 thousand will be provided by solar panels spread over 20 hectares concentrated on 2.8 kilometers covered by 3 tunnels to a width of 100 meters. " Currently, more than 25 percent of existing solar panels generating electricity. The Pizzarotti & C. is working to install the remaining panels that will be permanently active in the early days of December. The project, costing 60 million euros, will ensure an annual saving of 31mila tonnes of oil equivalent and will avoid the emission of 10 thousand tons of carbon dioxide. The Catania-Siracusa is one of the first attempts to integrate a real mini plant for the production of energy within a work of infrastructure, a virtuous example of a collaboration between public and private sectors and Pizzarotti Anas.

"The road to the future - Pizzarotti said Paul, president of the company - has to be the creation of buildings and smart grids and energy self-sufficient that fit into the area by minimizing the 'environmental impact." Enormous energy and environmental benefits on arrival and other important advantages. Plants, for example, will be under video surveillance to prevent theft. Not only that, the Pizzarotti & C. ensure, for 20 years, a daily check of the fenced areas, affected by the galleries. This is to ensure the safety of those crossing the highway. *The Catania - Siracusa, then, is a role model, even on the security front, as the most technologically modern highway systems in Europe for quality control, and asphalt-art security equipment. The gallery "San Demetrio" on the A18 has been recognized for safety by the Italian consortium Euro Tap ", the 'European Tunnel Assessment Programme", which includes engineers and experts of the fifteen major "car" and "Touring Club" Europe*. In addition, the "green areas" involved in the project, otherwise destined to be left unattended and used as open dumps, will be an important plan for environmental restoration. The Pizzarotti & Co. predicted that some resources will, in fact, used to the planting of thousands of plants and trees on the strengthening of rows and hedges and woodland regeneration and the increase of the masses. The development model for renewable energy is to be extended to other realities. At Parma, on behalf of Pizzarotti , was designed, the Urban District, mall 168mila square meters. The new structure will result in an increase of 2 percent of overall energy demand of the civil sector in the town of Parma. will not suffice to compensate the PV: You look back radically ' building to take advantage of the potential offered by the local microclimate (natural light, ventilation, production of various renewable energy sources) by installing high-efficiency plant systems.

(Com / CHC) October 2, 2010

source: http://www.ilvelino.it/articolo.php?Id=1211702

:banana:


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Nice. Now I wish they increase the speed limit to 150km/h, :cheers: 

By the way, as many of you already know, the road authority is allowed by law to increase speed limits up to 150 km/h in highways with 3 or more lanes per direction.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

My last video from Italy: Diramazione A8/A26 in northern Italy. Views on the Alps.


----------



## Verso

Nice! I didn't know Monte Rosa was so well visible. I've only driven there once, but in the other direction.


----------



## Federicoft

3:05


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> Nice! I didn't know Monte Rosa was so well visible.


Yes it was a great view. I could even clearly see Monte Rosa and Gran Paradiso all the way from the Alessandria region, now those are the foothills of the Appennines. I've read it is even possible to see Monte Rosa from the Ligurian Sea if the sky is clear.


----------



## Verso

Federicoft said:


> 3:05


What?


----------



## hofburg

> My last video from Italy: Diramazione A8/A26 in northern Italy


weird artificial tunnels.


----------



## -Pino-

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes it was a great view. I could even clearly see Monte Rosa and Gran Paradiso all the way from the Alessandria region, now those are the foothills of the Appennines. I've read it is even possible to see Monte Rosa from the Ligurian Sea if the sky is clear.


On a clear day you can see the Alps from Parma on the A1, but then you do not look towards the Monte Rosa region but rather towards the Alps behind Brescia and Bergamo. Particularly the descent of the A15 towards Parma is great on such days. It's the upside of the endless plain on a clear day.

Distance-wise, you should be able to see Monte Rosa from the Ligurian Sea too, but the mountains close to the coast will often form an object in your sight towards Monte Rosa. But without any doubt, there will be places where you can see Monte Rosa on a clear day.


----------



## Coccodrillo

hofburg said:


> weird artificial tunnels.


I find strange not the tunnels themselves, but this gap: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour....712731,8.66276&spn=0.00126,0.003422&t=k&z=19


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> Nice! I didn't know Monte Rosa was so well visible. I've only driven there once, but in the other direction.


Actually people generally don't think Alps are part of Milan and vicinity landscape: from my home in Settimo Milanese (a suburb NW of proper Milan) I can clearly see Monte Rosa dominating on the background from my balcony.

Many times unfortunately pollution hide the mountains


----------



## lucaf1

lucaf1 said:


> Since 2012, all autostrade and all 13 RA (classified as autostrada, as extraurbana principale or as extraurbana secondaria) managed by ANAS will be tolled with ''free-flow'' system


Since 2012? No, since april 2011.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Do you have details on how it will be operated? Will it have a website where you will login and pay? Will they have "vignettes" for foreign cars (I don't think so) instead of toll collection?


----------



## WalkTheWorld

hofburg said:


> weird artificial tunnels.


I do appreciate it may sound weird...it's called "re-naturalization". By means of artificials tunnels a "motorway-effected" area can be sent back a few centuries in time. Word!


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Low-grade pics. Views of the 1970 era Autogrill restaurants. Some of them, down east, have been recently renovated in "true 70's stule as seen from the 21st century"...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Which autostrada are we looking at exactly?


----------



## Mauz®

I guess: A4 Torino-Milano-Venezia...

Service area's name should be Sebino Nord/Sud (among Bergamo and Brescia).

1st pic direction Milan
2nd pic direction Venice

View by the windows of the "Ciao" restaurant!


----------



## WalkTheWorld

edit


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Mauz® said:


> I guess: A4 Torino-Milano-Venezia...
> 
> Service area's name should be Sebino Nord/Sud (among Bergamo and Brescia).
> 
> 1st pic direction Milan
> 2nd pic direction Venice
> 
> View by the windows of the "Ciao" restaurant!


Bingo. Between BGY airport and bresacia, actually.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

ChrisZwolle said:


> Which autostrada are we looking at exactly?


Apologies, I retyped the message and A4 went astray...


----------



## keber

WalkTheWorld said:


> Bingo. Between BGY airport and bresacia, actually.


Been there twice. Very convenient as a stop over northern Italy and very good pizzas.:cheers:
Only maybe larger parking space wouldn't hurt.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

keber said:


> Been there twice. Very convenient as a stop over northern Italy and very good pizzas.:cheers:
> Only maybe larger parking space wouldn't hurt.


It's congested all the time, 24/7 and it only get worse at night, with all the trucks cluttering every square meter...

as I said, it's old.

Needs renovation.


----------



## Suburbanist

You also need to take into account geography. In Italy, the dispersion of average driven distance from foreign drivers is very wide I'd say. You have the tourists who landed in Malpensa Airport and took a car to hear north to Switzerland. You have those going by car all the way south (1.500+ km) to beach resorts. You have those crossing from France to Austria...

If the vignette cost too little, Italians would fell unfair that foreigners spent less than them to travel the same distance on a single trip. If you have a too expensive vignette, touristic traffic (and their Euros spent in hotels, restaurants etc) could be well reduced in border areas.

So I guess they could adopt a system in which you pay online, with credit-card and plate number information, like the Congestion Charge, within a reasonable time, or risk a HUGE (like €1000+, besides any due toll) fine.


----------



## g.spinoza

Bear in mind that we are not talking about replacing the existing tool booth system in Italy. The free-flow system will only be introduced on some raccordi and on Salerno-Reggio Calabria (as well as some Sicilian autostrade).


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> Bear in mind that we are not talking about replacing the existing tool booth system in Italy. The free-flow system will only be introduced on some raccordi and on Salerno-Reggio Calabria (as well as some Sicilian autostrade).


I know! First plans were to introduce tolls in all Superestrade managed by ANAS (the Italian public authority for highways) - partially in case of highways in Sicily where CAS (Consorzio Autostradale Siciliano), a regional authority, has a share on the special-purpose entities that owns A19, A20 and A18 besides some other 1+1 expressways.

Then, I read they dropped the plans for 1+1 expressways. Therefore, the major deployments will be in A3 (Salerno-Reggio Calabria), SS3bis Ravenna-Terni (though I think the sector Ravenna-A14 will not be tolled) and non-tolled sectors of A19 (A20-Catania) and A20 (Messina-Palermo).

I've read conflicting information about electronic tolling being introduced (or not) in Sardegna's expressways.

I agree with the model, provided money stays within ANAS and used only to improve, maintain and expand the network. Yet, I think in case of A3, A19 and A20 they should build toll booths instead.


----------



## lucaf1

> I know! First plans were to introduce tolls in all Superestrade managed by ANAS (the Italian public authority for highways) - partially in case of highways in Sicily where CAS (Consorzio Autostradale Siciliano), a regional authority, has a share on the special-purpose entities that owns A19, A20 and A18 besides some other 1+1 expressways.


No expressways 



> Then, I read they dropped the plans for 1+1 expressways. Therefore, the major deployments will be in A3 (Salerno-Reggio Calabria), SS3bis Ravenna-Terni (though I think the sector Ravenna-A14 will not be tolled) and non-tolled sectors of A19 (A20-Catania) and A20 (Messina-Palermo).


SS3bis will not be tolled because is a SS. Axx and RAxx manged by ANAS will be tolled


----------



## Suburbanist

lucaf1 said:


> No expressways


What about that sector of A18 that is, officially, classified as Strada Statale 118, just north of Siracusa? I also thought that SS626 was under jurisdiction of CAS.



> SS3bis will not be tolled because is a SS. Axx and RAxx manged by ANAS will be tolled


So they really decided to toll only the autostrade. In such case, I think they should upgrade SS3bis from "superstrada" to "autostrada". They just need to build some shoulders and upgrade some junctions and cut-off some (few, indeed) roadside accesses to local roads.


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I see your point. As far as I know the Italian system will only require a bank account number, linked to the car plate, to be communicated to the toll company: they will calculate your fare and charge you accordingly after you use the roads.


So if I want to use Italian roads, I need to give my bank account number ... Sure:lol:


----------



## lucaf1

> What about that sector of A18 that is, officially, classified as Strada Statale 118, just north of Siracusa? I also thought that SS626 was under jurisdiction of CAS.


No, SS118 and SS626 are managed by ANAS


----------



## Mauz®

I think that as the free-flow system starts operating, plate-covers in Italy will become the most requested accessory for cars!


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> So if I want to use Italian roads, I need to give my bank account number ... Sure:lol:


I was only guessing, ANAS has called for proposals of free flow payment systems to several companies... nobody knows yet who's gonna win and what the system would be.

However, I can't see what the problem is with the bank account. Did you give your number to your telephone and utilities company? I trust much more a state-owned company than a private one.


----------



## keber

The problem is I'm not regular user of Italian roads. It is really awkward to do bureaucratic things and filling some papers for using let say just 10 km of ANAS roads per year. I'd rather see unified solutions for all Italian roads and abolishing numerous toll gates no matter who the owner of the particular road is.

And I never needed to give my bank account number for any of my travels anywhere on the world. Why then just in Italy?


----------



## Suburbanist

keber said:


> The problem is I'm not regular user of Italian roads. It is really awkward to do bureaucratic things and filling some papers for using let say just 10 km of ANAS roads per year. I'd rather see unified solutions for all Italian roads and abolishing numerous toll gates no matter who the owner of the particular road is.
> 
> And I never needed to give my bank account number for any of my travels anywhere on the world. Why then just in Italy?


I'm SURE there will be an alternative payment method, perhaps a little bit more expensive, like passive online charge (the user goes to the website).


----------



## Eddard Stark

people with telepass will pay automatically, people without (including foreigners) will be billed at home


----------



## keber

Eddard Stark said:


> people with telepass will pay automatically,


Telepass is microwave based, so how would people with it be charged? You need some supporting infrastructure on those roads.

How it is now with prepay-Telepass for foreigners? It's sad they don't make it available, in other countries such systems worked for everyone almost from the beginning.


----------



## Eddard Stark

keber said:


> Telepass is microwave based, so how would people with it be charged? You need some supporting infrastructure on those roads.
> 
> How it is now with prepay-Telepass for foreigners? It's sad they don't make it available, in other countries such systems worked for everyone almost from the beginning.


as far as I know the final technical solution has not been decided yet, but I am sure we will find a solution. Probably there will be some sort of "gates" under which cars will run

About Telepass: we love it a lot, thank you, and we do not want foreigners to mess around it, please get into the queue.


----------



## Suburbanist

Eddard Stark said:


> About Telepass: we love it a lot, thank you, and we do not want foreigners to mess around it, please get into the queue.


Geez, I'm Italian and I approve pre-paid Telepass for foreigners! Foreign drivers are the most likely to:

(1) make sudden changes near the toll booths as they try to read the crazy signaling of cash, credit-card and passcard booths.

(2) get confused with the increasing number of automated-only exits. In some cases, like in exists from A10 west of Savona, there are just 2/3 booths, but foreigners get stuck and take ages to clear the "premere qui" and so (fortunately now I guess every automated toll booth has multilingual menu, but still)


----------



## g.spinoza

Eddard Stark said:


> About Telepass: we love it a lot, thank you, and we do not want foreigners to mess around it, please get into the queue.


I don't like Telepass; I'd like it if it included some sort of discount, but it doesn't.


----------



## g.spinoza

Due to heavy snowfalls and low temperatures a section of A14 in Abruzzo (between Ortona and Lanciano) has been closed down. In Southern Italy, especially Calabria and Sicilia, there are a number of situations on A3 and A20.


----------



## x-type

Suburbanist said:


> Geez, I'm Italian and I approve pre-paid Telepass for foreigners! Foreign drivers are the most likely to:
> 
> (1) make sudden changes near the toll booths as they try to read the crazy signaling of cash, credit-card and passcard booths.
> 
> (2) get confused with the increasing number of automated-only exits. In some cases, like in exists from A10 west of Savona, there are just 2/3 booths, but foreigners get stuck and take ages to clear the "premere qui" and so (fortunately now I guess every automated toll booth has multilingual menu, but still)


(1) one should be really stupid not to be familiar with white-blue-yellow signals which are visible from the space. but anyway, i believe you that they happen too often. imo, Italy has fantastic way of signing diverse ways of paying the tolls, non of the other countries have it so good.

(2) i also believe you thatm although automated booths work in the same way in whole world :lol:


----------



## Mauz®

g.spinoza said:


> I don't like Telepass; I'd like it if it included some sort of discount, but it doesn't.


I use Telepass everyday and I love it!


----------



## keber

Eddard Stark said:


> About Telepass: we love it a lot, thank you, and we do not want foreigners to mess around it, please get into the queue.


If there is any mess, then there is at ordinary tollbooths. Once I needed to try three times with different 1 € coins to pay 0.90 € toll. And not to mention very slow procedures at manned toll gates.

And thank you for nice welcome.:nuts:


----------



## g.spinoza

^^Welcome, but A33 is already partly opened to traffic since 2005. I don't think they opened anything new in January 2011.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

As per Italian Wikipedia:



> Dicembre 2008: sono iniziati i lavori nei lotti Sant'Albano Stura-Castelletto Stura e Castelletto Stura-Cuneo: dovranno essere completati entro fine 2011.


Maybe this section opened ahead of schedule?


----------



## g.spinoza

According to the website it is not:
http://www.asticuneo.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=68

but the website can be outdated. Anyone who knows more?


----------



## plottigat

g.spinoza said:


> According to the website it is not:
> http://www.asticuneo.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=68
> 
> but the website can be outdated. Anyone who knows more?


I was there 2 weeks ago: the A33 still ends in S. Albano Stura. After the toll station there is a big construction site (seems a tunnel) related to the next stretch.


----------



## Fabri88

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Do you have a news source that can confirm the opening of A33?


http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_A33_(Italia)

I wrongly understood the first sentence. Sorry!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It says it's (as of januari 2011) partially opened and partially under construction and partially planned, right?

I'm working to improve my Italian.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

doppio post


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> It says it's (as of januari 2011) partially opened and partially under construction and partially planned, right?
> 
> I'm working to improve my Italian.


Correct. Bravo, Chris!


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> They couldn't because the last section is a superstrada, not tolled, while the A14 is tolled. These two kinds of road are never linked together.


I don't see the reason, why this would be important. You link superstrada directly onto autostrada with toll barrier before connection, so you don't need to drive through town.



> But A4 and Tangenziale di Torino are connected.


Yeah, but quality of connection is pretty bad. 
In my opinion A4 should directly connect onto A55 and not so as it is now:
http://goo.gl/maps/ZLqd


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> I don't see the reason, why this would be important. You link superstrada directly onto autostrada with toll barrier before connection, so you don't need to drive through town.


Superstrada and autostrada may look similar, but their purposes are quite different: superstrade usually serve local traffic. It is more important that they are well linked with local roads than with autostradas. So the priorities are given to local connections.
About the superstrada connecting A24 and A14 they chose to divert the traffic from A24 into A14 thru the already existing toll both in Giulianova, otherwise they would have to build booth just for the superstrada. Moreover, the superstrada serves local traffic: with your solution, if you want to go to the seaside only and miss the last exit, your only chance would be entering the autostrada and exiting it who knows how many km away from your destination.

What I'm against is the superstrada itself in this case. They should have built it as autostrada connecting directly the two autostrade. 




> Yeah, but quality of connection is pretty bad.
> In my opinion A4 should directly connect onto A55 and not so as it is now:
> http://goo.gl/maps/ZLqd


Fact is that A55 is directly linked with another autostrada, A5.


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> Fact is that A55 is directly linked with another autostrada, A5.


Yeah, but I think there is much more traffic from A4 to A55 than from A5 to A55 (at least in my experience, I drove both connections). Also, connection from A4->A55 is very awkward on A4. 3 lanes merging onto 2 lanes just before junction, which itself has really short decelerating lane. If you're not very careful, you'll continue toward Torino center instead of A55. Any plans to make that better?


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I don't think so, at least, I've never heard about that. Besides, in the area the theme of the day is the East Tangenziale of Turin... if they build it possibly they could also rearrange that connection, but I wouldn't count on it..


----------



## JB Colbert

keber said:


> Looks like normal for Italy: start ploughing snow a day after snowing finished. :lol:


This is completely false.


----------



## keber

Maybe, just my experience. And A1 December incidence proves that. :naughty:

Still, 10 cm of snow usually cause total chaos in Northern Italy and plowing to the clean road is usually done quite few days after last snow, especially on minor roads.


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## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Maybe, just my experience. And A1 December incidence proves that. :naughty:
> 
> Still, 10 cm of snow usually cause total chaos in Northern Italy and plowing to the clean road is usually done quite few days after last snow, especially on minor roads.


It always depends on the situation. A22 of the Brenner in Italy is kept always free of snow. On the other hand, for instance, last time I drove thru Austria it was a nightmare: 150 km of heavy snowstorm and not even a single snowplough.
I agree with you that the A1 December incident was way out of what can be considered normal.

About minor roads: in Germany they don't plough them at all. Secondary roads I usually drive have still some ice on them even after two full weeks of good weather and above-zero temperatures.


----------



## JB Colbert

keber said:


> Maybe, just my experience. And A1 December incidence proves that. :naughty:


Your experience proves nothing; the A1 block was an exception, an accident.



keber said:


> ...
> Still, 10 cm of snow usually cause total chaos in Northern Italy and plowing to the clean road is usually done quite few days after last snow, especially on minor roads.


Even the second part of your sentence is completely false; no other highways has been blocked this year and the past years.


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## keber

Ok, I'll keep to myself. All the chaos caused by snow in Italy can be now considered as my pure imagination, traffic always runs smoothly, when there is heavy snowing in Italy.


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## JB Colbert

You have a fervent imagination.
The situation in Italy during heavy snowing is similar to the rest of european highways.


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## Eddard Stark

I drove often on the mountainous A25. Always clear of snow even under the harshest conditions

and it's not exactly a big highway

I think Keber you are saying something which is not true. Actually management of our roads in winter is quite good, we almost never have the complete standstill of UK and central europe, even with similar (in north italy) weather


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## ChrisZwolle

JB Colbert said:


> The situation in Italy during heavy snowing is similar to the rest of european highways.


Utter chaos. The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Britain, Switzerland and Germany saw complete traffic gridlocks during the December snow storms.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I was in one of them. 2 hours for 30 km between Kreuz Muenchen Sued and Irschenberg.


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## JB Colbert

ChrisZwolle said:


> Utter chaos. The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Britain, Switzerland and Germany saw complete traffic gridlocks during the December snow storms.


In comparison, the block on the A1 was a joke.


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## g.spinoza

JB Colbert said:


> In comparison, the block on the A1 was a joke.


No, JB, you're not being objective. the A1 block was not a joke, at all. People was blocked more than 24 hours on the motorway, no communications by Autostrade per l'Italia, and what's worse, they kept the motorway open for other people to join the queue. That was an irresponsible behaviour by the authorities.


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## JB Colbert

You are right, my intention was not to diminish was happened on the A1 last december, but still remain an accident.


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## ChrisZwolle

One thing that always fascinated me was the suburb of Scampia of Napoli.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scampia

1. General layout, 2x2 expressway on the south side.









2. Exit towards Scampia is closed.









3. You have this kind of apartment blocks.









4. There are wide boulevards, mostly 2x2 without lane markings. There is also a large park and ample parking.









5. A lot of greenery, but it lacks maintenance.


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## g.spinoza

Scampia is an open wound. It was built in the '70 when the city-plans were often just drawings on paper. The unemployment rate is 75%, the buildings you mentioned, "Le vele" (the sails) are home to poor people and often to drug dealers and criminals. Obviously there are also decent people living there, but they are often "held hostage" of camorra and criminal gangs. The State is very far from these places.


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## JB Colbert

Which is the link between Scampia and italian Autostrade?


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## g.spinoza

^^ The superstrada "asse mediano".


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## JB Colbert

In your first post was not clear


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## g.spinoza

In fact I never mentioned it, but Chris did


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## JB Colbert

It seemed to me


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## ChrisZwolle

JB Colbert said:


> Which is the link between Scampia and italian Autostrade?


The threads in Highways & Autobahns are not limited to motorways, but includes all kinds of roads, including city streets.


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## JB Colbert

Yes, I was referring to the first post of spinoza; I would have to write "the link between Scampia *problems *and italian Autostrade".


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## g.spinoza

^^ Just to add a little broader information


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## ChrisZwolle

Southern start of A3 in Reggio Calabria:


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## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> The threads in Highways & Autobahns are not limited to motorways, but includes all kinds of roads, including city streets.


Scampia is probably the worst area for crime in Italy.

It's basically a huge hub for selling drugs.

It was the home of the camorra war of the year 2000', between the Di Lauro clan and the "scissionisti" (or people that want to secede, from the clan). Around 100 people died for that "war" which left both warring clans quite damaged (also by police) but claimed a victory more-or-less of the scissionisti

The clan war is depicted quite well in the famous movie "Gomorrah" and Scampia plays an important part in the setting.

There is nothing even remotely close to its desperation even in the other crime-ridden cities of south Italy like Palermo, Reggio Calabria or Bari.


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## Eddard Stark

ps: Scampia was largely built in reality after the horrible heartquake that stroke Naples region Campania in 1980 and claimed thousands deaths

A quick, large accomodation for people with no housing was built


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## hofburg

few pics from the very good road that goes nowhere.  it should connect Gorizia with Udine, but soon after the bridge over Isonzo river it stops and connects to SS351 road, direction Trieste.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...=45.924886,13.581505&spn=0.054928,0.1684&z=13


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Whoa... do you mind resizing them to a reasonable size, say 1024px?

By the way, what is the story behind the road numbering of the Messina - Catania - Siracusa motorway? Nowadays it turns from A18 into RA 15, then into an unnumbered motorway, then SS 114 and then A18 again... Weird.


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## hofburg

I hate photobucket, it resized just a few of my photos :/ wait


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## TohrAlkimista

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I was there some months ago but didn't have the chance to drive it. I must say this particular road is horrible. It is too close to the historical centre, some buildings and even a church are "suffocated" by its presence. It spread controversies when it was built, back in the 70s I guess.


When you drive on the sopraelevata of Genova, you have the best view of the city.
Especially at night, the view is amazing.
Unfortunately from the street level it's very awful.


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## g.spinoza

TohrAlkimista said:


> Those are the so-called "Vele" di Scampia, the most notorious complex that is always mentioned when referring to crime problems of that neighbourhood. For the record, the complex has been dismantled quite recently.


AFAIK, only two out of the 4 vele have been dismantled. Some architect issued a plea for them to become a sort of national monument:

http://www.rassegnastampa.comune.roma.it/View.aspx?ID=2010101116862452

I hope sincerely they won't be.


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## GENIUS LOCI

hofburg said:


> italians love that kind of roads.


I wouldn't say 'love'

They built those elevated streets mostly in '60s and '70s, but pratically everywhere they are within the cities, from Milan to Rome to Genova, people hate 'em and ask for them to be demolished


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## ChrisZwolle

Because they can visualize the current structure. But the average citizen cannot visualize the future traffic patterns once you demolish such a viaduct. As stated, the sopraelevata di Genova carries 80.000 vehicles per day. That's comparable to the traffic on 3 or 4 urban main roads, so you cannot just demolish it without an replacement tunnel.


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## hofburg

yup, then you get Paris, without any viaducts, and jammed 24/24.
you should be proud of such roads. 

tangenziale di mestre


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Because they can visualize the current structure. But the average citizen cannot visualize the future traffic patterns once you demolish such a viaduct. As stated, the sopraelevata di Genova carries 80.000 vehicles per day. That's comparable to the traffic on 3 or 4 urban main roads, so you cannot just demolish it without an replacement tunnel.


For the average citizen shape is more important than function. I hate sopraelevate and I'd like to see all of them torn to pieces, but only if a suitable - and less invasive - option is in place.


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## ChrisZwolle

Well I think the option of closing it at night is a good solution until a replacement tunnel can be constructed. The night period (22-6 or 23-7) carries only 8 - 10% of the 24h traffic. If there is a normal urban road beneath it (as is the case in Milano and Genova) this shouldn't be a big problem.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I don't see what this should accomplish. If they're building a replacement tunnel they can leave the sopraelevata open 24/7, and then demolish it when the tunnel is complete.


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## GENIUS LOCI

ChrisZwolle said:


> Because they can visualize the current structure. But the average citizen cannot visualize the future traffic patterns once you demolish such a viaduct. As stated, the sopraelevata di Genova carries 80.000 vehicles per day. That's comparable to the traffic on 3 or 4 urban main roads, so you cannot just demolish it without an replacement tunnel.


Infact in the three cases I quoted there are projects to build tunnels

In Rome the new stretch with tunnels of tangenziale est is u/c (but now I find out that once completed they won't demolish the viaducts, or at least part of 'em)
In Genova they proposed a tunnel under Porto Vecchio, but it will remain just a proposal I think

While in Milan current mayor wanted to tear down the viaduct you posted (here we call it Monteceneri viaduct or more often with the wrong name of _'ponte della Ghisolfa'_, because actually Ghisolfa bridge is just the bridge crossing the railway where the viaduct join) and build a tunnel.
But the tunnel wuold be a secondarian stretch of a huge project which has as main branch a tunnel 15 km long crossing the city center

I don't know if they will ever build it, but they scheduled it in the general urban plan they recently approuved


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## GENIUS LOCI

ChrisZwolle said:


> Well I think the option of closing it at night is a good solution until a replacement tunnel can be constructed. The night period (22-6 or 23-7) carries only 8 - 10% of the 24h traffic. If there is a normal urban road beneath it (as is the case in Milano and Genova) this shouldn't be a big problem.


In Milan Monteceneri viaduct is closed from 22.00 to 6.00 during the night


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## Suburbanist

GENIUS LOCI said:


> In Milan Monteceneri viaduct is closed from 22.00 to 6.00 during the night


Don't even remember me. I used to drive from my house close to the Naviglio Grande (almost outside Milano city limit) to a place at the Bicocca campus at night, to visit a gf. The route was easier to navigate via the western parts of the "urban ring", which includes the Monteceneri elevated expressway. Coming back, it added some 6/7 minutes because the elevated expressway was closed and the traffic lights at grade level just were out of sync most of the time!!!

There were other options, like driving through the S/E parts of the urban ring, or taking shortcuts near downtown, but that took longer. Crossing through the inner areas was even worse, particularly at early evening. Gridlock of trams, poorly signaled crossings, pedestrians @ Porta Genova FS/MM station and so.

Ideally, they should build an elevated expressway all along the urban ring road.

This ring road is all way (but for a short section) build as a boulevard that once delimited the confines of the city (there is an inner ring, that was once the old city walls - for most of it visible on Google Maps). It has a good alignment, but traffic jams and sometimes illegal parking kill its function. The area with these elevated expressways is a chokepoint: contrary to what happens in the east/norheast sides, there are no alternative thoroughfares, and the city is cut by a massive rail junction and a nearby rail yard. There is a trolleybus circle line all over the way, jammed and inefficient, that should have been long replaced by a subway circle line, freeing up space for 2/3 more car lanes. It crosses under Milano Centrale rail station, an area that is very soggy (poor-lit tunnels which didn't see decent repaint/refurbishment for a while, homeless people around and so).

The environwackos and cry-me-a-tree green weirdos once wanted to make all the are within that "ring" subject to "Ecopass", a daily tax on more polluting cars and trucks.


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## g.spinoza

The definitive project for the completion of A12 "Tirrenica" between Livorno and Civitavecchia is finally ready, and it will be made public in 20 days:

http://www.repubblica.it/ambiente/2011/02/17/news/autostrada_maremma-12556694/?ref=HREC1-12 (Italian only)

The superstrada Aurelia will be widened from 14-18.60 m to 24 m, with the exception of Fonteblanda-Follonica section which will be widened only to 18.60 (no emergency lane will be built).

The whole section is expected to open for traffic in 2016.


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## g.spinoza

Just to tease you more, this should be the definitive project of A12:









No toll booths in and out Italian-style, but a series of barriers, French "Provencale"-style.


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> No toll booths in and out Italian-style, but a series of barriers, French "Provencale"-style.


Weren't they going for electronic toll collection? I don't like that idea, not only because it will slow down travel times for at least 13 minutes without queues, but also because it will mean less grandiose, more in number and clogged with local traffic exits.

32 exits for 206km are too many! There should be a maximum of 20 exits, to reduce local traffic on highways in divert it into the historical Aurelia or other local road.


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## keber

I rather find 7 barriers for 200 km very annoying. 
Exit every 6 km in average is not too much in my opinion.


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## Suburbanist

keber said:


> I rather find 7 barriers for 200 km very annoying.
> Exit every 6 km in average is not too much in my opinion.


That is more than the A3, highway known for its excessive number of exits built to appease local politicians jealous of their neighbors getting one, and they having to drive through the other village should they want access to the highway.


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## g.spinoza

^^ They're more or less 45 for 440 km (not counting the urban ones in Reggio Calabria)... you are right about politicians and such, but consider also the fact that, given the montainous territory of A3, reaching some towns by local roads is often difficult if not impossible. A higher number of exits with respect to a motorway entirely in Padana plain is normal.


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ They're more or less 45 for 440 km (not counting the urban ones in Reggio Calabria)... you are right about politicians and such, but consider also the fact that, given the montainous territory of A3, reaching some towns by local roads is often difficult if not impossible. A higher number of exits with respect to a motorway entirely in Padana plain is normal.


I was thinking mainly about such urban exists in Reggio Calabria, Villa San Giovanni and at the beginning of A3. Otherwise, I agree with your assessment. There are no old roman roads following A3 alignment in its most rugged sectors.

In any case: the Livorno-Civitavecchia will have way too many exits. It seems to be a trend nowadays: everyone wants its own exist. Indeed, it is part of result of flawed planning: they decided to upgrade some old Aurelia 1x2 sectors to expressway standards back then, and now don't want to build another entirely new alignment with fewer exits.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Suburbanist said:


> The environwackos and cry-me-a-tree green weirdos once wanted to make all the are within that "ring" subject to "Ecopass", a daily tax on more polluting cars and trucks.


They're wrong: because the right way should be municipality limits not just the ring... Anyway an extension to the ring (now it's within the 'internal ring' area) should be a first step


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## ChrisZwolle

keber said:


> I rather find 7 barriers for 200 km very annoying.
> Exit every 6 km in average is not too much in my opinion.


True, for a 200 km toll road you want a closed ticket system, not a cheap-but-annoying open toll system. Open systems are only interesting for short urban sections, not long-distance toll roads.


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## g.spinoza

At this point, after 40 years, I'd say "whatever, just build it"!

I know there have been many complaints by locals because there aren't many alternatives, and the open toll system is a way to keep some stretches free (for instance around Grosseto).

But I agree there are too many exits: "Centrale Enel"? "S. Vincenzo" north and south? "S. Pietro in Palazzi" and "Cecina"?


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## 3naranze

*italian job on traffic sign*

this sign is on test on A27 just before Vittorio Veneto sud exit,northbound: _it's mandatory to use winter tyres or have chains on board from 15 november till 15 april between Vittorio Veneto sud exit and merger with SS51 _ (national road nr.51), i.e. Pian di Vedoia, where A27 ends. please, note the big effort to help foreigners 








from "strade sicure" blog the reference point:


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## x-type

wouldn't something like this be much more intuitive and understandable?


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## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> True, for a 200 km toll road you want a closed ticket system, not a cheap-but-annoying open toll system. Open systems are only interesting for short urban sections, not long-distance toll roads.


it shall be a free-flow system, similar to the "tutor" active on some italian highways for speed control

So no barriers


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## g.spinoza

Eddard Stark said:


> it shall be a free-flow system, similar to the "tutor" active on some italian highways for speed control
> 
> So no barriers


^^ Those were some rumors... the map I posted, taken from iltirreno newspaper, says otherwise


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## ChrisZwolle

How will it work for foreign vehicles?


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## g.spinoza

The subject is not clear yet. In this article from iltirreno newspaper, from which the map comes, there are some inconsistencies: the map clearly shows the seven barriers French-style, but the text reads:



> Ad ogni svincolo sarà installato un sistema di controllo elettronico.
> 
> Un veicolo passa e il costo del pedaggio sarà registrato sul telepass. Se il veicolo non ha il telepass, il rilevatore riprende il numero della targa e invia a domicilio il pedaggio da pagare.





> An electronic control system will be installed at each exit. The toll will be registered on the Telepass device. If a vehicle is not equipped with Telepass, a detector will scan the license plate and send the bill to the car owner.


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## Fabri88

ChrisZwolle said:


> How will it work for foreign vehicles?


Do you want an answer? I don't know!:lol:

Talking about chains in my province wheel chains are compulsory:

- from 15th November to 15th March
- if you don't have winter tyres
- in case of intense snow (with 2cm of snow you can't put chains at your wheels).

Talking about the sign in Veneto: Italian people are hard to understand the single symbol. You have to explain the meaning.*

Fortunately younger people are improving their acknowledge of road symbols due to a better driving school.

*[OT] in Germany and in some other countries is usual to see many acronyms such as:

- FCB (FC Bayern)
- LKW (Lastkraftwagen)
- NRW (Nordrhein-Westfalen)
- OÖ (Ober-Österreich)

and so on...

Italian people get crazy when seeing acronyms: they usually don't know the meanings of dozens of acronyms.

We have regions called as Trentino Alto Adige, Friuli Venezia Giulia and Emilia Romagna, but very seldom you'll see TAA, FVG or ER.

PS: if an Italian see ER he thinks to the medical fiction.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Those were some rumors... the map I posted, taken from iltirreno newspaper, says otherwise


The map shows there are barriers but doesn't tell if those ones were traditional barriers or just gates with a cash flow system


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ You're right, I didn't think of those... well, let's wait a couple of weeks for the official presentation of the project.

Changing subject:


> He destroyed his black Pagani Zonda hitting the guard rail on the A10 after the Spotorno exit and came out unharmed. The car, which costs 1.2 million euro, is wrecked. Italian Road Police suspended his license but mystery on the identity of the guy who drove the Monaco-registered supercar remains. The accident occurred two nights ago, after midnight, on the autostrada towards Genoa. After passing at *320 km/h* other cars travelling the same route, he lost control of the powerful car, went into tailspin and, after hitting the guard rail on the right side lost a tyre, rolled over and crashed into the left side guard rail. The young guy came out apparently unharmed from the wreckage of the car.


http://www.corriere.it/cronache/11_...so_0ae3d1b6-3b44-11e0-ad4e-5442110d8882.shtml


----------



## Fabri88

ChrisZwolle said:


> True, for a 200 km toll road you want a closed ticket system, not a cheap-but-annoying open toll system. Open systems are only interesting for short urban sections, not long-distance toll roads.


A8 has open system: I think it is better for short travelling.

I can travel from Busto Arsizio (my town) to Lomazzo on the A9 (eastern branch of Milano - Laghi motorways system) travelling for 26 km without paying any toll.

Other free tracks are:

· Busto Arsizio - Legnano (7 km)
· Cavaria con Premezzo - Varese (11 km)


----------



## Suburbanist

GENIUS LOCI said:


> They're wrong: because the right way should be municipality limits not just the ring... Anyway an extension to the ring (now it's within the 'internal ring' area) should be a first step


Ecopass is ridden with problems ans special handouts. Essentially, it is meant to keep the poorer Italians who commute to the inner center of Milano from using older, more polluting cars to drive there via a toll that hit their budgets. Residents of the area pay almost nothing - if any -. The scheme should be repealed ASAP. Indeed, all environmental exclusion zones in Italy, now a maze of local regulations, should be dismantled in favor of single national standards based on Euro categories, and nothing more, requiring no registration, pass, sticker whatsoever. There are a handful of Euro categories, let each city choose any exclusion to certain older cars, without any possibility of giving residents a free pass circulating there. An Euro-0 car pollutes the same per km, be it owned and driven by a retiree who's lived in the same house for 40 years on a meager pension or by a day-worker commuting to work in the are. 

So the ECOPASS, as it is, is nothing short of a money-grab scheme preying on commuters living outside Milano. Those living within the city, depending on where they live, could even have the case to use the subway or so, but there is no way for a commuter living in a city 40km out of downtown Milano to get there daily, and timely, unless he/she wants to suffocate in overcrowded regional trains that takes ages and are almost always delayed transporting more than 3 passengers per square meter in a seater car.


----------



## Suburbanist

Fabri88 said:


> A8 has open system: I think it is better for short travelling.
> 
> I can travel from Busto Arsizio (my town) to Lomazzo on the A9 (eastern branch of Milano - Laghi motorways system) travelling for 26 km without paying any toll.
> 
> Other free tracks are:
> 
> · Busto Arsizio - Legnano (7 km)
> · Cavaria con Premezzo - Varese (11 km)


This is unfair IMO. It means drivers coming from Malpensa, Como and Varese to Milano are indirectly subsidizing those short hops from local drivers. It is an inherent problem of any open barrier toll system: as not every driver pays, the ones who pay ought to pay more for those who don't.

I think open tolls make sense only in the context of major bridges or bypasses that are sort-of independent systems built with specific purposes. Maybe a tunnel, or a spur in which most traffic passes through a single toll en-route to a major highway. The roads around Milano should all use gate-based toll. However, I do agree there is no space to build toll plazas in A4 and in most of Tangenziale Est exits. Maybe when electronic tolling becomes the norm it will be possible to install such systems.


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## Fabri88

The fact is that distances are so little that someone use Milano - Laghi as a "Superstrada" (toll free) and other people use it as an "Autostrada" (paying toll).

Gallarate entrance is only for medium-long travelling.

If I have to go to Varese I always enter A8 in Cavaria to avoid toll payment.

The same do Gallaratese people when they have to go to Milan: they always enter A8 in Busto Arsizio.

Drivers coming from Malpensa pay once: Milano Nord (1,50 €) as the track from Malpensa to Busto Arsizio is served by a "Superstrada" (Strada Statale 336). 

Drivers from Varese pay twice: 1,30 € in Gallarate and 1,50 € in Milano Nord (total amount: 2,80 € for 42km)

Drivers from Como pays twice: 1,90 € in Como Grandate and 1,50 € in Milano Nord (total amount: 3,40 € for 36km)

According to the toll per km ( http://www.autostrade.it/pop_tariffa_1.html ) Varese's people should pay 2,70 € (they pay 2,80 €) and Como's people should pay 2,30 € (they pay 3,40 €).


----------



## x-type

Fabri88 said:


> Talking about the sign in Veneto: Italian people are hard to understand the single symbol. You have to explain the meaning.*
> 
> Fortunately younger people are improving their acknowledge of road symbols due to a better driving school.
> 
> *[OT] in Germany and in some other countries is usual to see many acronyms such as:
> 
> - FCB (FC Bayern)
> - LKW (Lastkraftwagen)
> - NRW (Nordrhein-Westfalen)
> - OÖ (Ober-Österreich)
> 
> and so on...
> 
> Italian people get crazy when seeing acronyms: they usually don't know the meanings of dozens of acronyms.
> 
> We have regions called as Trentino Alto Adige, Friuli Venezia Giulia and Emilia Romagna, but very seldom you'll see TAA, FVG or ER.
> 
> PS: if an Italian see ER he thinks to the medical fiction.


:lol::lol:

don't be so harsh, Internazionale is much more known worlwide as Inter


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> :lol::lol:
> 
> don't be so harsh, Internazionale is much more known worlwide as Inter


He is right, though: Italians don't like acronyms (in fact Inter is not one). In fact, foreigners tend to use full names for football teams like "AC Milan", "FC Barcelona" or something like that. Italians most of the times ignore what FC and AC stand for, and never ever say them when talking about "Milan" or "Barcelona"...


----------



## sotonsi

AC Milan is a little bit different to normal English usage, as Inter Milan means that the AC has to appear on the first use, before becoming just 'Milan' (and Inter becomes 'Inter' after the first use). However, FC and similar are never mentioned - it's always, for example, Manchester United (or Man United, Man U or ManUre) rather than Manchester United Football Club/Manchester United FC. You may (and Man U is a rare case) see MUFC on banners/graffiti.


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> He is right, though: Italians don't like acronyms (in fact Inter is not one).


have you noticed emoticons in my post?


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> have you noticed emoticons in my post?


Yes I did... I just went into "obnoxious mode"


----------



## -Pino-

g.spinoza said:


> He is right, though: Italians don't like acronyms


While I think that it's true that you don't see as many acronyms in Italy as you see elsewhere, road names must be an exception. BreBeMi, Fi-Pi-Li, road numbers ending with dir., the whole lot ...


----------



## Verso

^^ I drove there once and will never drive there again. Tunnels are so tight and low that I saw a campervan bump itself in the roof.


----------



## Coccodrillo

There is no alternative to this road north of Como but south of the main alpine watershed (the nearest link to the north is an illogical San Bernardino-Thusis-Julier-Maloja), except a road via Lanzo d'Intelvi which is much longer, higher and slower.


----------



## -Pino-

Pfosten said:


> does somebody have current information concerning a31 "valdastico sud" (and maybe valdastico nord) ???


Valdastico Sud: currently under construction. First parts expected to be opened in 2012, completion in 2013.
Valdastico Nord: unlikely to be ever constructed. If I understand correctly, a recent order by the Italian Constitutional Court gave the Autonomous region of Trentino-Alto Adige effectively a veto over the project. And that region will veto the Valdastico Nord if proposed.


----------



## Schwarzpunkt

*SS38 Superstrada Merano Bolzano*

Hi.
I ‘m a new member. I begin with some pictures of the expressway near my home. The Superstrada Merano-Bolzano (called MeBo). This is the SS 38 between km 196 and 224 (his end). 










1. beginning of expressway








2.









3. Work to construction of the tunnel under the city of Merano (link between SS38 MeBo and SS44 della Val Passiria) (info: http://www.verkehr-bewegt.it/it/bausteine_kuechelbergtunnel.asp








4.








5.








6. Exit Merano sud








7. Exit ramp of Lana. the exit never have the sign “end of expressway” (the signage in Italy contains always some error)








8. Access ramp Lana to Bolzano








9.Exit Gargazzone








10.








11.








12. Beautiful view: the Catinaccio – Rosengarten (Dolomiti) 








13. The busiest section (Frangarto - 35.475 vehicle/day - source: http://www.provinz.bz.it/astat/download/JB10_K18.pdf Pag 455 - SS38 Frangarto)








14. Tunnel of Castel Firmiano








15. 








16. The last junction. Too late signed hno:


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## Eddard Stark

Map by Gruber of the italian motorway system bu mid 60'' when the main one was completed (Autostrada del Sole)



gruber said:


>


----------



## x-type

when was Savona - Ventimiglia completed?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Schwarzpunkt said:


> Hi.
> I ‘m a new member. I begin with some pictures of the expressway near my home. The Superstrada Merano-Bolzano (called MeBo). This is the SS 38 between km 196 and 224 (his end).
> 
> 2.


Herzlich willkommen - benvenuto :hi: 

I haven't seen many four lane roads without barriers in the middle, it's strange.


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## -Pino-

Most 1970s superstrade were constructed like that. The current concrete median barriers were only added later, for security reasons. The pictures of the Bolzano - Merano, too, suggest that the concrete median was added after initial construction. Not sure though why they didn't do the first part of the expressway.


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## Verso

Nice pics and landscape.


----------



## Schwarzpunkt

-Pino- said:


> Most 1970s superstrade were constructed like that. The current concrete median barriers were only added later, for security reasons. The pictures of the Bolzano - Merano, too, suggest that the concrete median was added after initial construction. Not sure though why they didn't do the first part of the expressway.


That’s not entirely true.
The first section of superstrada Merano Bolzano was constructed ca. thirty years ago (1980) as Bypass of Merano, without barriers in the middle. 
The section Merano sud – Bolzano is (almost) new, it was opened in year 1997 and was projected and constructed with the concrete median barrier (speed limit: 110 km/h). 
An example where the barrier has been added after initial construction are some sections with 4 lane of the SS 47 della Valsugana (because of it today it has very narrow lanes)


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## g.spinoza

Some of the superstrade I know better, SS76 and SS77, were built in the '70 directly with concrete barriers in the middle.


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## Schwarzpunkt

Verso said:


> Nice pics and landscape.





Coccodrillo said:


> Herzlich willkommen - benvenuto :hi:


 Grazie!

Effectively the 4 lane streets without barriers are now few; they are often added after construction, as Pino said.
I only know the SS 354 Latisana – Lignano (arond 15 km). This is not really a expressway, it has some traffic lights.


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## g.spinoza

A14 yesterday was a total nightmare. Combining the widening roadworks and the coming back from holidays, I stayed in queue continuously from Pesaro to Imola (120 km, almost 3h).


----------



## Pfosten

x-type said:


> when was Savona - Ventimiglia completed?


it was completed 1971


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## Eddard Stark

g.spinoza said:


> A14 yesterday was a total nightmare. Combining the widening roadworks and the coming back from holidays, I stayed in queue continuously from Pesaro to Imola (120 km, almost 3h).


I feel your pain, 11 hours Pescara-Milan (6 hours normally)

It's becoming clearer and clearer that the third lane for the 155 km between Rimini and PortoS.Elpidio - which at first looked as exagerated for this highway - is quickly becoming a necessity with the growth of traffic on this important highway

It's nice to see however that construction continues quite well. I hope by 2014 all can be finished as planned


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## g.spinoza

Eddard Stark said:


> I feel your pain, 11 hours Pescara-Milan (6 hours normally)
> 
> It's becoming clearer and clearer that the third lane for the 155 km between Rimini and PortoS.Elpidio - which at first looked as exagerated for this highway - is quickly becoming a necessity with the growth of traffic on this important highway
> 
> It's nice to see however that construction continues quite well. I hope by 2014 all can be finished as planned


I read somewhere (can't remember exactly where) that roadworks on the Fano-Senigallia section are proceeding much faster than scheduled and they will be able to open the third lane (northbound only) before this summer...


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## -Pino-

There was a press release to that effect on autostrade.it. 2014 is the currently scheduled date of completion, by the way.

The question of course remains to what degree the expanded A14 can cope with peak days like Pasquetta. Delays on days like that are inevitable. But generally, the increase to 2x3 seems appropriate for such an important North-South axis.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I don't think the widening of A14 will solve the problems, because problems aren't on that section. I drove several times a year for 7 years that section, and the problems were always between Imola and Pesaro. Also this time the problem was the huge amount of traffic entering the autostrada from Romagna northbound (that's the reason why jams always stop at Imola), but jams were so thick and long that they mirrored even south. 

The only definitive answer would be separating long-range traffic and short-range traffic, but I recognize that is unfeasible. I think that it would be more useful to enlarge to 4 lanes from Pesaro northwards than enlarge the Marche section, which is never too jammed, and when it is, the culprit is in Romagna.


----------



## Moravian

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I don't think the widening of A14 will solve the problems, because problems aren't on that section. I drove several times a year for 7 years that section, and the problems were always between Imola and Pesaro. Also this time the problem was the huge amount of traffic entering the autostrada from Romagna northbound (that's the reason why jams always stop at Imola), but jams were so thick and long that they mirrored even south.
> 
> The only definitive answer would be separating long-range traffic and short-range traffic, but I recognize that is unfeasible. I think that it would be more useful to enlarge to 4 lanes from Pesaro northwards than enlarge the Marche section, which is never too jammed, and when it is, the culprit is in Romagna.


The further up-grade (widening, bypass-constructions...) of the SS16 and SS9 (like the north-bypass-road in Cesena) might be the right solution for Romagna...


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## Eddard Stark

The reconstruction of A3 in its most difficult sections (the final km from Lamezia to Reggio) are finally looking well underway. The section is mostly made of long tunnels and super-tall bridges (among the tallest in the world) which are all being remade anew



jack74 said:


> Ecco le foto relative al macrolotto 5 (da Gioia Tauto a Scilla) scattate lunedì 18 aprile 2011:
> 
> 
> Viadotto Petrace carreggiata sud (Km 394)
> 
> 
> 
> Imbocco Nord Galleria San Filippo (Km 398), si viaggia a doppio senso solo sulla carreggiata sud
> 
> 
> 
> Imbocco Nord Galleria San Filippo (Km 398), si viaggia a doppio senso solo sulla carreggiata sud
> 
> 
> 
> Interno canna sud galleria San Filippo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imbocco Nord galleria Santa Lucia carreggiata sud (Km 402), si viaggia a doppio senso solo in carreggiata sud
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imbocco nord gallerie Barritteri lunghe 2,7 Km al Km 405
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imbocchi sud gallerie artificiali Quartararo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viadotti Gazziano entranbe le carreggiate tra le gallerie Bagnara (a Nord) e le gallerie Cacciapuiu (a Sud)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viadotto Sfalassà
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imbocchi nord gallerie San Giovanni a sud dello Sfalassà, la canna sud non è stata ancora aperta
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imbocchi nord nuove gallerie Feliciusu al Km 417
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imbocco nord canna sud nuova galleria Muro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viadotto Favazzina
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viadotto a nord dello svincolo di Scilla


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are no road numbers signed either.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ The road is just A22, both ways. It has little meaning to put such signs.


----------



## Verso

I don't like that so much emphasis is put on Modena, I'd prefer Verona (or both).


----------



## -Pino-

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ The road is just A22, both ways. It has little meaning to put such signs.


You guys in Italy have a very limited view on when it makes sense to signpost route numbers. Essentially only when you are not yet on a numbered route. I would say that it always makes sense to repeat the route number on directional signs, even when you are already on it. It makes sense for reassurance purposes. Italy seems to be the only country in Europe where route numbers are no longer repeated once you are on the numbered route. Except on bridge numbering signs.

Oh yes, and E-numbers also fall outside of the scope of the Italian rule ...


----------



## keber

I don't see the point of having road number here too. I don't see them in other countries in such cases.


----------



## g.spinoza

We never rely on numbers. We prefer words. "Modena" and "Brennero" are much more explicative than A22... I guess very few Italians even know that A22 is that particular Autostrada. For everybody is just Autobrennero.


----------



## -Pino-

Not too surprising when road numbers are either signposted with a very small shield or not at all. And of course road numbers will never really replace the main focal points Brennero / Modena or the name Autobrennero. But I do see route numbers as an important part of finding your way, and the Italian signs are just about the worst signs in the developed world to support the use of route numbers.

In comparison with other countries, both France and Spain do signpost the route numbers in similar situations.


----------



## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> In comparison with other countries, both France and Spain do signpost the route numbers in similar situations.


Just a matter of points of view. If numbers were different in the two directions, I could agree. But in this case they just seem redundant, unnecessary and a bit ridiculous.


----------



## -Pino-

Once something is signposted, you should continue doing so. That continuity principle is pretty core to directional signage. That entails that certain data on signs may be redundant in certain situations because the situation more or less speaks for itself. Take signs that show the focal point for the road ahead. All the way South of the Brenner you see that same town returning on the signs. Isn't it completely obvious that, where the exit Rovereto-Sud is signposted, Modena is still straight on? Yet they signpost it. The reason is more in the objective to reassure the motorist rather than to show information that is really new. Distance signs and trailblazers are probably an even better example of reassuring without any intention to show information that is of immediate relevance.

But that form of reassurance is considered helpful to the motorist throughout Europe and beyond. The knowledge that you can always easily look up where your road is going, your current route number, etc, that helps the motorist to feel at ease. And that is exactly the bottom line of what I hear non-Italians say all the time about the Italian road signs. They are being pushed out of their comfort zone all the time. It's not that Italian signage tends to be wrong, but it is very minimalistic - dare I see too minimalistic. On the one hand, it survives. On the other hand, I am inclined to say that the refusal to signpost route numbers also plays a role in the signposting of villages like Gravellona Toce from very far out.


----------



## g.spinoza

As I said, it's just a matter of what you're used to. Nobody in Italy knows which autostrada A26 is. But if you say "Genova Voltri-Gravellona Toce" everybody knows. It's longer to say, but it's less easily mistakable. "Was it A26, or 25? Maybe 24?" But everybody knows where Genova is, and Gravellona Toce too, even if it is a small village indeed.

I'm living in Munich for 6 months now, and I always make confusion between A8, A9, A99 A995, A94... they're too similar, it's easy to get lost. But I know Berlin, Salzburg, Garmisch, Passau, Stuttgart. I never navigate using numbers.


----------



## SeanT

g.spinoza said:


> As I said, it's just a matter of what you're used to. Nobody in Italy knows which autostrada A26 is. But if you say "Genova Voltri-Gravellona Toce" everybody knows. It's longer to say, but it's less easily mistakable. "Was it A26, or 25? Maybe 24?" But everybody knows where Genova is, and Gravellona Toce too, even if it is a small village indeed.
> 
> I'm living in Munich for 6 months now, and I always make confusion between A8, A9, A99 A995, A94... they're too similar, it's easy to get lost. But I know Berlin, Salzburg, Garmisch, Passau, Stuttgart. I never navigate using numbers.


 It has to be something with the size of a country like Italy or Germany, both large countries, but when I´m at home in Hungary, everybody knows where M7 is or M3, you don´t have to mention Balaton or Nyíregyháza. The only thing you hear in a case of an accident/road work in radio broadcast is the direction like M7 towards Balaton/Bp. or M3 Nyíregyháza/Bp.


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## g.spinoza

^^ There are of course exceptions: in Italy everybody knows A1 and A14, and maybe A3 and A4, but the other denominations are less known. In Italian newscasts you ALWAYS hear "A3 Napoli-Reggio Calabria" or "A24 Roma-L'Aquila-Teramo". Maybe we are better in geography than in mathematics


----------



## -Pino-

Countries like Germany at least offer you the choice between relying on numbers or relying on major cities. People with a strong background in the paths of a road are more likely to rely on focal points, as even a village like Gravellona Toce will help them to immediately associate. But people with a smaller familiarity with a road network, who just navigate on the basis of a map, are much more likely to look at route numbers and they are unlikely to have even heard of Gravellona Toce, a town that will not feature on many maps either.

Hence the common choice to signpost route numbers AND main focal points. It's easy to do, won't cost a lot and is certainly a more appropriate thing to do than installing road numbers at bridge numbering signs. Or signposting an Autogrill 85 kilometers down the road.


----------



## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> Hence the common choice to signpost route numbers AND main focal points. It's easy to do, won't cost a lot and is certainly a more appropriate thing to do than installing road numbers at bridge numbering signs.


Those signs have a very specific purpose: they were installed in late '80/early '90 when a series of accidents happened. Some people started tossing rocks from overpasses onto the motorway, and in some cases those rocks hit a car and killed or injured its occupants. Signs were installed at each overpass to have a secure reference when calling police and ambulance.



> Or signposting an Autogrill 85 kilometers down the road.


Yes, this surely is something of a mockery to the driver, I agree :lol:


As for the general discussion about signing, you may be right, but ultimately every nation do what is necessary to the majority of its motorway users, and every nation falls short in some cases of signage because other nations do something different.

For instance, I cannot understand why on German Autobahns, in the very spot where an exit is, there is only a generic "ausfahrt" sign. If you miss the previous sign with the indication of the exit name, you'll just end up wondering "which exit is that?". Maybe Germans are used that way, but we Italians don't: in Italy exit names are always signed at exits.


----------



## g.spinoza

Maxx☢Power;77577175 said:


> ^^ Isn't it a little late to be wondering if you should be exiting when you see that sign? :|


Maybe you are busy looking at other cars, behind you, ahead of you, on your sides. Maybe you're overtaking. Maybe panels before the exit are too full of words and you're a slow reader. Maybe it's just to be reassured, to speak with Pino's words. "Was it Garching-Süd or Garching-Nord?".


----------



## g.spinoza

Maxx☢Power;77578137 said:


> No, what I mean is when you're close enough to read that sign maybe it's a little late to be exiting? Depends on how good your vision is I guess. Like here, there's no way you could read that sign before it's too late.


That sign you posted is hard to read, that's sure. Of course one cannot rely on exit signs only, but think of this scenario: you read "Trento-something 500m"... you are too busy watching a moron that overtakes you and cuts your way, so you miss the "something". Was it "Sud" "Centro" or "Nord"? Unsure about it you approach the first lane preparing for exiting, and you read "Trento Sud", so you don't exit because your exit is "Trento Nord", some 15 km away. 



> So it may actually be a safety thing, but in general I agree that reassurance is good, whether it's route numbers or exit names/numbers.


You may be right. What I mean is that the overwhelming majority of Italians don't use road numbers as ways of navigation, and maybe we don't understand other people that do. Old road signs don't carry road numbers, maybe in future new ones will, like overpass signposts which are relatively new and always carry road number.


----------



## -Pino-

> What I mean is that the overwhelming majority of Italians don't use road numbers as ways of navigation, and maybe we don't understand other people that do.


Pretty much all over the world, route numbering was introduced well after directional signage. So people had always managed to navigate on the basis of focal points, and when they started numbering roads nobody really used road numbers as a basis in their navigation. But slowly but surely, people worked out that there is added value in them. Not because route numbers mean that focal points are no longer important, but because the two join forces -so to say. 

From that perspective I'd say that Italy should simply give it a go to improve the signposting of the route on which you drive, while of course maintaining the current system based on fixed focal points (maybe some focal points should be changed, but that's off-topic). It won't hurt anyone and forms a good clarification at least for some.

Same goes for exit numbering on intercity routes, but that sounds like a bridge too far ...



> overpass signposts which are relatively new and always carry road number.


What do you mean? The large gantries that you see immediately before exits? The sole route number that I see on those tends to be a very small E-number. Which is a nice discussion in itself: if route numbers are considered unnecessary to signpost once you are on a certain numbered route, why are E-numbers signposted on all gantries?


----------



## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> Pretty much all over the world, route numbering was introduced well after directional signage. So people had always managed to navigate on the basis of focal points, and when they started numbering roads nobody really used road numbers as a basis in their navigation. But slowly but surely, people worked out that there is added value in them. Not because route numbers mean that focal points are no longer important, but because the two join forces -so to say.
> 
> From that perspective I'd say that Italy should simply give it a go to improve the signposting of the route on which you drive, while of course maintaining the current system based on fixed focal points (maybe some focal points should be changed, but that's off-topic). It won't hurt anyone and forms a good clarification at least for some.


I agree. One gets used to something only _after_ the introduction of that something. Italy's main problem here is to _systemize_ its messy and chaotic road numbering grid. Autostrade are pretty much ok, but tangenziali, raccordi, superstrade are a taxonomic mess. Before starting putting signs with road numbers, Italy must develop a consistent and reasonable road numbering scheme. 



> Same goes for exit numbering on intercity routes, but that sounds like a bridge too far ...


Some superstrade started numbering exits since a couple of years. Examples are SS76 in central Italy and SS35 near Milan. I was kinda surprised when I saw them.



> What do you mean? The large gantries that you see immediately before exits?


No, I mean these ones:











> The sole route number that I see on those tends to be a very small E-number. Which is a nice discussion in itself: if route numbers are considered unnecessary to signpost once you are on a certain numbered route, why are E-numbers signposted on all gantries?


Good question. Maybe EU is bitching about signing E-roads, while the Italian government doesn't care about national numbers...


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ So basically you're saying that signs should not actually do their job and indicate things. Marking the exits should be made more difficult. Good to know.
While we're at it, why don't we remove also speed limit signs? There's always some moron traveling at 150 and breaks when he reads 80, risking a collision with the poor guy behind him. Or when we're in a roundabout, there should be no indication of exits. There is always a risk that some stupid guy in the inner lane reads his exits and actually want to take it, without doing another round on the roundabout, and cuts our way on the external lane.

Excuse me, but this is really absurd.


----------



## g.spinoza

Maxx☢Power;77585633 said:


> No, I said no such thing. I'm only talking about the sign positioned immediately on the exit like the one I linked to previously. Its job should _not_ be to indicate direction. If you didn't see the 2 (or more) _big_ signs indicating the exit before, well, then you've missed your exit.


Fortunately in Italy we think differently, maybe partly because we pay for each km driven, and missing your exit because it's poorly signed wouldn't be welcomed by taxpayers and registered voters. 
And I must say, I've seen waaay more morons cutting my way from the passing lane to get to the exit in Germany in 6 months of driving, than in 10 years of driving in Italy. The problem is not the way exits are signed. The problem are morons: they can wreak havoc in any conditions.


----------



## g.spinoza

Maxx☢Power;77586465 said:


> Agreed on the last part, but not the first. If the exit suddenly becomes poorly signed when you remove that sign then maybe it's a problem with the signage leading up to the exit. My point is, that sign shouldn't be necessary at all, exits are signed well in advance and if a driver missed those signs then it's either because he's not paying attention or because of poor design.


And we return to the beginning of the discussion. If you find them unnecessary because one should have to rely on warning signs, I found the repeated inclusion of road number signs unnecessary, because of course you will find directional signs with the number of the autostrada during the approach to it, and if you reached the toll barrier and enter autostrada you should already know WHICH autostrada is that, otherwise you're not so smart and you should not drive at all.



> In case I'm not making it clear: It's not the sign really that I don't like, it's using that sign for navigation. Hence why I think it's useless and may encourage dangerous behavior. It makes no sense for reassurance purposes either, because once you're close enough to read it you're either off the motorway or you've missed the chance to exit safely.


I don't know if you ever drove an Italian motorway, but I can assure you that those exit signs can be read from quite far. Of course one cannot rely just on them for navigational purposes (but I already said this earlier), but I find them useful. In some cases, for instance, they can be more easily readable than those on gantries. Think for instance on driving westbound during sunset: you may not be able to read signs on gantries due to sunlight, but those ones on exits are more protected.


----------



## -Pino-

g.spinoza said:


> Good question. Maybe EU is bitching about signing E-roads, while the Italian government doesn't care about national numbers...


EU is not responsible for E-numbers; UNECE (a department of the United Nations) is. And they are pretty much a lame duck when it comes to enforcing the Geneva Convention on E-numbers.

The Geneva Convention does state that E-numbers must be signposted. It does does not explain how. You can build a good case around signposting them in the same manner as Italian domestic numbers are being signposted. In other words, on approach of routes only, but no longer once you are on that route. Doing so is definitely not worse than the German standard where E-numbers are only signposted on distance signs, which means that you may discover that you are no longer on an E-route only after the E-route turned off. And the Germans consistently get away with that approach.

But well, we agree on what Italy should do: work out a system and comply with it. If Mr. Berlusconi needs my assistance, he can send me a DM.


----------



## Schwarzpunkt

-Pino- said:


> ...But people with a smaller familiarity with a road network, who just navigate on the basis of a map, are much more likely to look at route numbers ...


I agree.

Italian drivers don’t follow the road-numbers because our street signs do not give us this option (except perhaps on motorways, in the interchanges there are always the motorway number).
I photographed some directional signs in my town (Merano). There are never numbers, the focal points are the main alpine passes, who does not know the area understands very little.























:bash:

In my opinion they should write also the numbers. Because of our signage, many Italians don’t like long trips on ordinary road, it is too probable miss the road.
I occasionally travel in Hungary. I do not know the Hungarian, I have difficult to read and remember the names of their cities and I follow well the road numbers, not only on motorways. Their system gives this possibility, our no.


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## Suburbanist

^^ It is weird, indeed, though they use touristic signaling. They should use some sign to indicate SS38 and SS44


----------



## Verso

SeanT said:


> It has to be something with the size of a country like Italy or Germany, both large countries, but when I´m at home in Hungary, everybody knows where M7 is or M3, you don´t have to mention Balaton or Nyíregyháza. The only thing you hear in a case of an accident/road work in radio broadcast is the direction like M7 towards Balaton/Bp. or M3 Nyíregyháza/Bp.


It doesn't have to do with size of a country. We aren't familiar with road numbers in Slovenia, just towns and names of motorways.


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## SeanT

Might be, but feks. Hungary doesn´t have names of motorways. We do not even say Balaton-motorway (M7) although it could be an obvious name.


----------



## RV

Why are the roads of Rome so much outdated?


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## Verso

^^ That's what I've noticed in Google Street View as well. Motorways in Rome are really crappy.


----------



## Federicoft

Are you referring to motorways or urban thoroughfares?


----------



## Verso

Oops, looks like just the end of A91 is crappy, sorry.


----------



## Federicoft

Yup, the end of the A91 is a nightmare, with the infamous viadotto della Magliana.
Apart from that, motorways in Rome are in a pretty good shape, including the urban section of the A24 (which is basically the only motorway to reach Central Rome) and the GRA ringroad. And they also are toll-free. 

With urban main roads, which fall under the municipality's domain, it's different story. Potholes and decaying roadbeds are extremely common on most roads, although it was even worse in the past and there are nevertheless a few roads in remarkably good conditions (such as via Cristoforo Colombo, the main link between Rome and the sea). This is due to the fact Rome has a very large territory and population but the same powers and financing as any other of the 8,000 municipalities of the country, or at least this is what politicians say. 
However the status of the city is currently being reformed into a special metropolitan municipality with enlarged powers, so we'll see how things will evolve.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ There are still some interesting works going on there, like the Tiburtina viaduct replacement, some underground parking facilities (sounds mundane, but Roma lacks street parking and, as an ancient city full of ruins, every excavation yields many antique art crafts) and so.

What they really need to do away is with the limited traffic zone in downtown. That annoys me to my head.


----------



## Coccodrillo

> Roma lacks street parking


Nearly all European cities were built centuries or millennia ago, before the invasion of cars. Thankfully no (sub)urbaist has destroyed them to build parkings...


----------



## arnau_Vic

very interesting


----------



## Eddard Stark

Federicoft said:


> Yup, the end of the A91 is a nightmare, with the infamous viadotto della Magliana.
> Apart from that, motorways in Rome are in a pretty good shape, including the urban section of the A24 (which is basically the only motorway to reach Central Rome) and the GRA ringroad. And they also are toll-free.
> 
> With urban main roads, which fall under the municipality's domain, it's different story. Potholes and decaying roadbeds are extremely common on most roads, although it was even worse in the past and there are nevertheless a few roads in remarkably good conditions (such as via Cristoforo Colombo, the main link between Rome and the sea). This is due to the fact Rome has a very large territory and population but the same powers and financing as any other of the 8,000 municipalities of the country, or at least this is what politicians say.
> However the status of the city is currently being reformed into a special metropolitan municipality with enlarged powers, so we'll see how things will evolve.


Roman streets are in bad shape because Rome - as any italian city - is inefficiently managed AND has too few powers and indipendent financial means.

This is true for Rome and for any other large italian city. The size of the comune has nothing to do with it


----------



## Federicoft

The size of the municipality has of course very much to do with it, it is possibly the no.1 reason behind the poor condition of roads in Rome. 

A larger territory means longer distances, thus a longer road network to mantain compared to a more compact city with the same inhabitants. For instance, Rome has twice as many inhabitants as Milan but its territory is around eight times as big.


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## hofburg

Maxx☢Power;77811147 said:


> ^^ It's better to have cars parked in parking garages than littered around on sidewalks, pedestrian crossings etc. which is often the case in old European cities. Some might find this to be a charming kind of chaos, but imagine how much better you could enjoy these old cities if all the cars could park underground or in multi-level garages..


the problem is that underground garages shouldn't be so much more expensive then regular street parking.


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## -Pino-

Probably true for many places, but in Central Rome everything that goes into the ground is bound to be expensive. Archeological reasons.


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## Eddard Stark

Federicoft said:


> The size of the municipality has of course very much to do with it, it is possibly the no.1 reason behind the poor condition of roads in Rome.
> 
> A larger territory means longer distances, thus a longer road network to mantain compared to a more compact city with the same inhabitants. For instance, Rome has twice as many inhabitants as Milan but its territory is around eight times as big.


most of which is nice fields very hard to maintain...farmers have to tend them continously in order to get their wheat.

The city itself which is in real need of management is more or less in scale with Milan or Turin or Naples. There are some differences but they do not justify and difference in maintainance.

In fact Naples is very compact and dense AND poorly maintained. The same can be said in many cases also for Milan (with some slight difference with Rome and Naples, but not too much)

The problem of Rome - and any other italian city which is more or less in the same condition when compared to other european cities - is of lack of their own managed financial means and the inefficiency of PA in Italy


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## Federicoft

They are not in the same scale _at all_. Distances in Rome are much greater than in any other city in Italy.

Just an example out of many
http://goo.gl/maps/0ItX

50 km between two urban neighborhoouds, without leaving the borders of the municipality. 
You don't even come close to that anywhere in the country. And yes, this has definitely an impact on road maintenance, amongst many other things.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

I'm sure there are data of total length of the roads in any Italian municipality: you can compare these data to know who is right


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## Federicoft

Rome: 6100 km (source)
Milan: 1743 km (source)
Naples: didn't find anything.


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## lucaf1

Cittadella (Padua)









Bologna


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## Suburbanist

^^ Typical parking signal mess to be found in many Italian cities.

"Translating" them:









This is an indicating for a designated parking area ahead.

Paid parking - € 0,50 for 20min

Tickets available on parking meter Monday-Saturday 8h-13h and 15h-20h*

Parking forbidden, subject to removal from site, on Mondays 7h-13h
Parking forbidden, subject to removal from site, on Sundays 14h-20h
Parking forbidden, subject to removal from site, on the 3rd Sunday of the month from 7h-20h

_This means, by implication, that parking is free of charge Monday-Saturday 13h-15h, during holidays that do not fall on Mondays or Sundays, during all nights and also on Sundays (other than the 3rd of the month) up to 14h._
*Now tell me how do Padua municipality authorities expected a driver, unfamiliar with town, should be able to read these instructions while driving, even if slowly (30-40km/h)!!!*

In Bologna, the mess is less but still present:








This is a street parking sign, applying to both sides of the sign (double arrow).

Parking allowed only for motorbikes and mopeds Monday-Saturday 8h-20h

Parking is only allowed for cars, minivans and small utility vehicles, up to 3,5ton, which are registered as authorized drivers for sector 4 (most likely residents and business owners in the area) on Monday-Sarturday nights (20h-8h) and Sundays and holidays all day long.

_This parking is probably within the ZTL, an area where only residents area allowed to drive under the disguise of reducing traffic on medieval quarters (it is all b.s., as residents have to pay licenses + NIMBY-ism of people living in old quarters not wanting clogged streets just because they were build in year 800 d.C.)_


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## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> _This parking is probably within the ZTL, an area where only residents area allowed to drive under the disguise of reducing traffic on medieval quarters (it is all b.s., as residents have to pay licenses + NIMBY-ism of people living in old quarters not wanting clogged streets just because they were build in year 800 d.C.)_


In this case it is not nimbysm, it is just common sense. I lived in Bologna for many years and a lot of streets in the city centre are clogged even just with a single car passing thru.


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## -Pino-

I came across the Regolamento di esecuzione e di attuazione del nuovo codice della strada (here) which seems to be a document outlining how Italian roads should be signposted. Is this document binding? In that case, it seems like all of Italy is in breach of its own guidelines.

One rule that particularly struck me is rule 132. Is it my poor understanding of Italian or does it really say that a distance sign _may_ be placed when leaving town or after complex interchange, but _must_ be placed at 500 meters after every on-ramp on a motorway or superstrada? In that case, not too many autostrade and superstrade are compliant. 

Another one is rule 130, about those itinarary signs that are placed before autostrada and superstrada exits. Rule says that they cannot have more than five lines. Which has an obvious reason, namely that motorists won't be able to read more lines than that. And then consider the actual signage: more signs in breach with the rule than in compliance, with the obvious conseqence that the signs defeat their purpose.

Without any doubt, further reading of the guidelines will offer other insights about how Italian signage might have been. Compliance would have improved Italian signage greatly in my view. Though I should not be surprised about the lack of discipline in Italy when it comes to compliance, are their any thoughts from the ground (i.e. Italian forummers) as to the reasons why Italian government entities and motorway concessionairs do not signpost in accordance with the rules?


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## Schwarzpunkt

-Pino- said:


> I came across the Regolamento di esecuzione e di attuazione del nuovo codice della strada (here) which seems to be a document outlining how Italian roads should be signposted. Is this document binding?


The document is binding.



-Pino- said:


> IOne rule that particularly struck me is rule 132. Is it my poor understanding of Italian or does it really say that a distance sign _may_ be placed when leaving town or after complex interchange, but _must_ be placed at 500 meters after every on-ramp on a motorway or superstrada? In that case, not too many autostrade and superstrade are compliant.


imo it is not clear. The Rules says, "is placed" not "must be placed."

However you are right, our signage is a disaster, we Italians are adapted and we not realize it but foreigners often have problems.
The most striking example are the arrows of the lanes. In the picture (A1xA11 Interchange) the right lane goes straight, but it has the right arrow.

















hno:

Under Article 147 it must have the double arrow straight + right (as in all other countries).
For this reason we Italians always choose the lane at the last moment, when the intersection is visible. We can't rely on signs. :bash:


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## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> Though I should not be surprised about the lack of discipline in Italy when it comes to compliance, are their any thoughts from the ground (i.e. Italian forummers) as to the reasons why Italian government entities and motorway concessionairs do not signpost in accordance with the rules?


Italy in many fields have some of the most advanced laws in the world. As many Italian analysts say: "The problem with Italy is not in the rules. It's in the fact that they are rarely enforced". My personal opinion is that politicians and rulers want to show the goodness of their work by presenting these advanced laws before the press and the public opinion. Italian journalist Beppe Severgnini once wrote that in Italy everything has to do with the _bella figura_ ("good impression"): everything has to be nice at a superficial examination, the rest is less important...


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## LtBk

That doesn't explain poor enforcement. Maybe it has to do with incompetent government you guys have.


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## g.spinoza

LtBk said:


> That doesn't explain poor enforcement. Maybe it has to do with incompetent government you guys have.


Sure it explains poor enforcement. It means having the maximum effect with the minumum effort. Not enforcing is a minimum effort.


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## LtBk

Rather pathetic if you ask me.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I didn't.


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## -Pino-

For many laws, a relatively lax form of enforcement is actually sensible. There isn't really too much upside in enforcing paragraph 159(31)(c)(iv) of EU Regulation 12456/2001 on the exact substances that may go into cheese. Or certain speed limits in the middle of the night. Having the rules is a good thing, not enforcing them all the time makes a very _bella figura_. Where signage ends up substandard, you may have very good-looking guidelines, but the public tends not to see those. The public only sees the signs on the ground. It is used to the mess, but well aware that there is lots of room for improvement. So the improvement / enforcement of the guidelines should make a very _bella figura_. In other words, this is an area in which Italians ought to adhere to the standards or Armani instead of the standards of Parmalat bookkeeping. 


@Schwarzpunkt, where statutes say "is placed" I tend to read it as an imperative, not as a description of an actual situation. But that is of course the point of view as a foreigner.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I have to be sincere here, as I stated in another thread, I think Italy has much more important things to do than worry about signage. I drove for 10 years in Italy and, frankly, I never had any problems with signage. Of course it is something to be taken care of, but I wouldn't cry too much about it or call it "pathetic".


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## -Pino-

G.Spinoza said:


> I think Italy has much more important things to do than worry about signage. I drove for 10 years in Italy and, frankly, I never had any problems with signage. Of course it is something to be taken care of, but I wouldn't cry too much about it or call it "pathetic".


Just about every country has more important things to do than to worry about signage. But as signs need to be replaced and updated on a continuous basis, you can just start by bringing newly placed signs in line with the rules. And when you are at one exit, also place that distance sign that is / may be mandatory. It's not the end of budget austerity or major projects going on at the level of the various road-related institutions.

In the meantime, I find Italian signage far from pathatic. You need to adjust your mindset a bit once you enter the country, but it works. Yet the fact that people do not have problems is not decisive for the question whether or not there is room for improvement. Improvement may be something that people never missed. But that's enough philosophy at Friday Drinks time.


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## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> Yet the fact that people do not have problems is not decisive for the question whether or not there is room for improvement. Improvement may be something that people never missed.


I do not agree.

When I was an undergrad student in astronomy, in late 90s, as a part of my instruction I went to the University's observatory, up on the Apennine mountains near Bologna. One of the two telescopes was controlled by a 8086 computer, which was already Jurassic at that time. I asked the astronomer why wasn't the computer replaced with something newer, he looked at me and said: "Because it works."


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## ChrisZwolle

I think there's little doubt about the Italian signage being far behind the standards of Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovenia, Spain, Croatia, etc. It's not that it's completely illegible, but it's often unnecessary confusing or less-is-more in the extreme. I mean, if you install a giant overhead sign anyway, why not make it fit to the road situation?


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## -Pino-

"It works" is an argument with limited value. People who invented cars and bought cars also had horses that "worked". But they saw an added value that nobody had missed until then. On signage, the same applies. Italians think that it works because they take their exits. Only somebody with a broader perspective will note that clearer signs help to save the last-minute lane-changes that Italians are used to yet that are unsafe. Better advance directional signage would save time and accidents. Helps things to "it works" in a way that many Italians had never figured.

By the way, I am not with Chris on lane allocation. The gantry signs are helpful to create a picture of both directions at decision time. Lane allocation is often not needed. For a lane allocation, you would need to broaden the pull-through sign in a manner that the legibility of the exit sign goes down (you'll be forced into the use of a condensed font much more regularly). So I'm fine without lane allocation at an ordinary exit. What I do not like, however, is the false suggestion of lane allocation given by Italian gantry signs. The arrow on the pull-through sign needs to be placed differently. I saw photos of Italian gantries of the 1960s that did the trick actually. Something went wrong afterwards.


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## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> Only somebody with a broader perspective will note that clearer signs help to save the last-minute lane-changes that Italians are used to yet that are unsafe.


This is just something that YOU foreigners believe, but it's absolutely not true. As I stated in another thread, I've seen far more last-minute lane-changes in 6 months of driving in Germany than in 10 years of Italy. So please, stop saying that poor signage force drivers to this kind of manoeuvres because you're implicitly saying that German signage is poor.



> So I'm fine without lane allocation at an ordinary exit. What I do not like, however, is the false suggestion of lane allocation given by Italian gantry signs. The arrow on the pull-through sign needs to be placed differently. I saw photos of Italian gantries of the 1960s that did the trick actually. Something went wrong afterwards.


This is something I never even thought could be a problem for anyone, until you guys told so. But trust me, nobody in Italy has ever had any problem with lane allocation gantries, even if "they don't reproduce exactly the lane situation". I see the difference with German style lane allocation signage, but never had any problem with either.


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## -Pino-

g.spinoza said:


> This is just something that YOU foreigners believe, but it's absolutely not true. As I stated in another thread, I've seen far more last-minute lane-changes in 6 months of driving in Germany than in 10 years of Italy. So please, stop saying that poor signage force drivers to this kind of manoeuvres because you're implicitly saying that German signage is poor.


A few posts back, your own countryman Schwarzpunkt seems to disagree on last-minute lane changes. Of course, last-minute lane changes are also a mentality thing. Even if you know what the situation will look like, you can always choose to stay on the left until just before the exit and then cross three lanes. No signage will ever change bad mentality, but at least it can give you a clearer picture.



> This is something I never even thought could be a problem for anyone, until you guys told so. But trust me, nobody in Italy has ever had any problem with lane allocation gantries, even if "they don't reproduce exactly the lane situation".


Be honest, the signs are counter-intuitive. A three-year old gets the picture that a falling arrow above one lane forms a connection between the message above that arrow and the lane underneath it. And thus also what first-timers think when they first see Italian gantry signage. 

The fact that Italians do not have problems with the signs as they are is because they have enough experience to have instinctively started to ignore the arrows. I as a non-Italian have sufficient experience to do that too. But it's always better to not rely on that type of experience. Where you can, rely on the intuition of a three-year old.


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## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> Don't get me going on directions. Imagine that you are heading for the Lago Maggiore. You have prepared yourself by looking at your map and working out that you need to go to the A26. But that number is either not printed on signs or printed too small (by objective standards, don't be silly). So is there anything that could have prepared you for the fact that you need to follow directions to a 1000-inhabitant town instead of to sizeable towns like Arona, Stresa, Domodossola or even a well-known pass route like the Simplon?


This is because you rely on the name "A26". If you, like we Italians do, rely on its termini names "Genova Voltri-Gravellona Toce", you know you should go towards Gravellona Toce. I fail to see the difficulty on that. By the way, even if you rely on the name "a26" you could navigate your way to the motorway but then you have to know which direction you must take, and you must know "Gravellona Toce". And I would be very surprised if Arona, Verbania or Domodossola weren't signed. I'm sure they are.

And I am not being silly, I've never had problems reading numbers on motorway signs, I don't know why you have so much troubles.


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## -Pino-

g.spinoza said:


> This is because you rely on the name "A26". If you, like we Italians do, rely on its termini names "Genova Voltri-Gravellona Toce", you know you should go towards Gravellona Toce. I fail to see the difficulty on that.


Lots of maps do not even contain Gravellona Toce. Everyone without prior knowledge would probably have figured Stresa or Domodossola as terminus. And next thing you are in Milan, looking for the termini called Napoli and Trieste. Which you will not find on any sign.

Using directions only works when the directions signposted match reasonable assumptions or where you have prior knowledge of the towns that will be signposted. Some Italians will have prior knowledge of Gravellona Toce being the terminus of the A26 and thus the focal of choice. But I doubt whether the average person in Rome or further South will be able to reproduce. And here you run into the key function of signposting: supporting people who do NOT know by heart. Your position is based on the idea that people will know by heart (except if they run into a sign that says Ausfahrt). In any event it is good to know that your position is not the position that most Italians in this discussion share.

Besides, I already pay for signage on Italian motorways. When they replace the signs from my toll money when a replacement is due anyway, I fail to see the additional cost of a road number that is legible. And if cost is still an issue, let´s get rid of the information posted on the kilometer signs in the median.


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## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> Lots of maps do not even contain Gravellona Toce. Everyone without prior knowledge would probably have figured Stresa or Domodossola as terminus. And next thing you are in Milan, looking for the termini called Napoli and Trieste. Which you will not find on any sign.
> 
> Using directions only works when the directions signposted match reasonable assumptions or where you have prior knowledge of the towns that will be signposted. Some Italians will have prior knowledge of Gravellona Toce being the terminus of the A26 and thus the focal of choice. But I doubt whether the average person in Rome or further South will be able to reproduce. And here you run into the key function of signposting: supporting people who do NOT know by heart. Your position is based on the idea that people will know by heart (except if they run into a sign that says Ausfahrt).


You may be right about that, but think about this. There are basic information you have to know, if you must go from Milan to Naples. Namely, that in the same direction there are Rome, Florence and Bologna. You cannot expect that every city is signed everywhere, there would be a big mess. I mean, here in Germany I cannot expect that Hamburg is signed in Munich. You have to know that Nuremberg, Kassel and Hannover are in the way. I agree that signing only "Gravellona Toce" is not very smart, but as I said I'm sure it's not the only city signed in that direction. I don't have any proof, though, because I've never driven there.



> In any event it is good to know that your position is not the position that most Italians in this discussion share.


I don't know what to say, I know that many Italians like to bash their country at will. I like that too, but for things I really think are wrong, not just because it's stereotype or because of something someone once said. It is not true, for instance, that Italians change lane frantically and cut your way; it is true, however, that they don't use indicators, but most of the times they change lane only if it's safe.

I don't think that Italian signage, on average, is worse that in other countries. Maybe it's only my impression, but I like it.



> Besides, I already pay for signage on Italian motorways. When they replace the signs from my toll money when a replacement is due anyway, I fail to see the additional cost of a road number that is legible. And if cost is still an issue, let´s get rid of the information posted on the kilometer signs in the median.


You kidding. I think that signs in the median are among the most useful signs. See, we see things differently, but that doesn't mean one is wrong and the other is right.


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## g.spinoza

Maxx☢Power;78595202 said:


> You're one step away from invoking Godwin's law now, so I'll stop arguing with you. It's clear you're not willing to look at things objectively and for some reason take this personally.


Nothing of the sort, but replying to someone who says "you're wrong and I'm right", it's not my kind of a discussion.


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## lucaf1

@g.spinoza "...like we Italians do..."

Italians are 60,000,000. So the opinions are at least 2


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## g.spinoza

^^ In fact I was not talking about me. I know autostrade number and can navigate using them. I just said that on average, Italians do not. And you can't deny this, because if Italians use routinely autostrade numbers for navigation, and such numbers were really so bad signed, there would be an uprising by Italians demanding "better road signs". But there is none.


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## -Pino-

Chicken-and-egg-story. Nobody will start learning road numbers if you cannot use them anyway. If nobody knows them, you decide that there is no reason to signpost them, and there you will have proof for your point. The consequence? Eternal standstill.

An uprise on road signs never occurred. Had the powers waited for an uprise, then France would still have been in its Michelin-signs, the UK would have been pre-Worboys and no country would ever have started to signpost road numbers let alone exit numbers. Was that process even driven by complaints from drivers? I bet not. All changes in signage were, and it will in the future remain, road engineer-driven projects. Because they see forms of improvement that the ordinary men in the street do not. And because they know that, even though nobody in the streets ever thinks of using a particular new feature, newly introduced features on signs tend to be appreciated and used a few years down the line. If someone had asked me 25 years ago about exit numbers, I would have said that I saw little use in them. But when they came, they turned out to be really helpful.

It's not only a road thing. What would you have said if someone had asked you in 1990 about the various things you now do on the internet?


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## g.spinoza

Ok I lost all interest in this discussion. Think whatever you please, I don't care. Please let's move on.


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## Suburbanist

I read that Variante di Valico, the new/additional Apennines' transposition on A1 (Milano-Napoli), between Bologna and Firezne, will likely open a few months ahead of schedule in 2013.

Italy has only 8 highway trans-Apennines crossings, and this is certainly the most important. The new works (a combination of widening and new ROW (creating a 2+2+2+2, non-aligned design, but also 3 (downhill) +2 (uphill) + 2(uphill) elsewhere) were planned since the first round of public tender for private operators of Italian network, in 1997.

Moreover, Austostrade per l'Italia announced it keeps reducing its fatality rate on highways under its control, not to accident, injuries and fatality rates that are below those of France, whose highway's design, pattern of use and monitoring are similar to those of Italy.


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## keber

Is there any news about open-road electronic toll to be implemented in Italy?

I read the other day article about Slovenian systems, and head of our motorway agency said, that they are talking with Austrian, Croatian and Italian authorities about compatibility between those countries electronic tolls. As Austria already has microwave based electronic toll collection working for years maybe this will mean similar system to be introduced in Italy?


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## Mauz®

In Italy we have the Telepass system... every toll station has some lanes dedicated to it.
Cars with this tool installed on their front glass can pass through the yellow lanes without stopping at the toll station (just slowing down):



















In the future some new motorways (still u/c) should adopt a different free-flow system based on an electronic plate reader, I guess (but I'm absolutely not sure of it)...


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## -Pino-

Isn't the intention that the A12 between Livorno and Civitavecchia (i.e. the part that is to be constructed over the next few years) will be tolled with an electronic free-flow system?


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## keber

Mauz® said:


> In Italy we have the Telepass system... every toll station has some lanes dedicated to it.


I was thinking about free-flow system. Isn't ANAS something experimenting with?


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## g.spinoza

May 2011 was the deadline for the implementation of free-flow toll system on "raccordi autostradali", autostrada A3 and GRA. As far as I know, nothing has been done.


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## lucaf1

*Official number and name:* SS280 dei due mari

*Official classification:* strada extraurbana (no source if SS280 is "strada extraurbana secondaria" or "strada extraurbana principale"); by the way SS280 is surely not a motorway (according to the law "D.L. 29 ottobre 1999, n.461 (Gazzetta Ufficiale n. 288 del 09-12-1999)" and according to the nomenclature (SSxx and not Axx))

*Official speed limit*: 110 km/h (so SS280 isn't a "strada extraurbana secondaria" but a "strada extraurbana principale" aka superstrada)










*All right?*

NO! 

Motorway sign:








Green road sign:








but also blue sign:









:bash:


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## brick84

Some new photos about
*MESSINA | Freeway - Exit Giostra / Annunziata*

http://maps.google.it/maps?q=svinco...ent=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=it&tab=wl


http://maps.google.it/maps?q=svinco...ent=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=it&tab=wl

who follow last discussion about knows what we talking about... :|

(By Trinacria Felix)




TRINACRIA FELIX said:


> *AGGIORNAMENTO SITUAZIONE AVANZAMENTO LAVORI AL 03 GIUGNO 2011!*
> 
> I lavori procedono sempre velocemente, *lavorano anche oggi che è festivo per Messina!*
> E' stato innalzato sulle pile un altro tratto di impalcato e continua la posa in opera delle spallette per la sede stradale (foto 10 e 11).
> Continua inoltre l'assemblaggio degli impalcati sul terreno per essere successivamente innalzati e messi sulle pile come si evince dalle foto.
> Le pile continuano a crescere!​





TRINACRIA FELIX said:


> *AGGIORNAMENTO SITUAZIONE AVANZAMENTO LAVORI AL 10 GIUGNO 2011!*
> 
> In attesa di recuperare mia moglie dal mercato ho fatto il solito giro cantieri e mi sono intrattenuto in una piacevolissima discussione con quattro simpatici pensionati che si riuniscono e fanno anche loro il giro cantieri e che attendono da una vita la realizzazione degli svincoli e del Ponte sullo Stretto!
> Purtroppo, a detta loro, ignoranti nell'uso del computer, hanno voluto lo stesso il sito di SSC!
> I lavori procedono sempre velocemente, stanno completando le sedi in testa alle pile dove verranno appoggiati gli impalcati (foto 4).
> Continua la posa in opera delle spallette per la sede stradale (foto 1).
> Continua inoltre l'assemblaggio degli impalcati sul terreno per essere successivamente innalzati e messi sulle pile.
> E' stata realizzata una struttura (foto 6-8-9-10) che servirà forse come base di appoggio degli impalcati prima di essere innalzati.
> Le pile intanto continuano a crescere!!​


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## Suburbanist

A24 x GRA interchange in Roma (project design)



stemos said:


> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Coccodrillo

Here are the plans for A31 north: http://www.ladige.it/inc/class/easy...ile=/oggetti/2011_05&nome_file=valdastico.pdf

The preferred one is T4, but it is unlikely to be built.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Yes, Trentino administrators do not want it, and they have the last word on the matter.


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Here are the plans for A31 north: http://www.ladige.it/inc/class/easy...ile=/oggetti/2011_05&nome_file=valdastico.pdf
> 
> The preferred one is T4, but it is unlikely to be built.


Which one do you think will be chosen?


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## g.spinoza

^^ T4 is the chosen one.
http://www.lestradedellinformazione...he/IprotagonistidelleStrade/articolo7263.html


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## ChrisZwolle

Why waste time and money on studies if it's obvious it won't be built anyway?


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## g.spinoza

Because if they manage to somehow "convince" Trentino administrator to agree, they will have their concession automatically renewed until 2026; otherwise they will have to compete in a regular tender.


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## brick84

Coccodrillo said:


> Here are the plans for A31 north: http://www.ladige.it/inc/class/easy...ile=/oggetti/2011_05&nome_file=valdastico.pdf
> 
> The preferred one is T4, but it is unlikely to be built.


Hi.
Do you know where i can found (links) projects and also about other italian highways??
A3 Sa-Rc o A18 Siracusa-Gela, for example?



thank you.


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## Suburbanist

sorry, wrong post.


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## Coccodrillo

You can search for the VIA (Valutazione di Impatto Ambientale = Environmental Impact Evaluation) of the projects.

For example:
http://www.dsa.minambiente.it/VIA/Home.aspx for Italy
http://via.regione.piemonte.it/index.htm and http://www.sistemapiemonte.it/ambiente/via/ for Piemonte

You can try with Google, finding for example:
http://www.gurs.regione.sicilia.it/Gazzette/g09-03/g09-03-p16.html
http://www.regione.sicilia.it/turismo/trasporti/CE/ACE/ACE finale.pdf
http://www.regione.sicilia.it/turismo/trasporti/arcdocumenti/2004/riassetto tps/parte2.pdf
http://www.regione.sicilia.it/turismo/trasporti/arcdocumenti/2004/piano logistica parte 2-3.pdf
http://www.dsa.minambiente.it/via/DettaglioProgetto.aspx?ID_Progetto=232

Unfortunately it is very difficult to find detailed informations of Italian projects.


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## Mauz®

I think the best way to find information about the Italian projects is to read the Italian forum (section "Strade e Autostrade"), with every topic dedicated to a specifical project.

If there's some public information available about an Italian project you will surely find it there. If you don't find it, maybe there's no public information available.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Not many forumers here speak Italian, though...


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## Mauz®

Usually the most important informations are displayed in the first page of every thread! 

Maybe it's possible to find something also on www.urbanfile.it. Many informations about a lot of projects, but not all the projects in Italy.
And the site is in Italian language too...


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## CNGL

I have a solution for Valdastico Nord: Build the motorway up to Lastebasse, on the VI/TN border, and end it there. Then, if there are traffic troubles on SS349 and they want the A31 to Trento, just say that they didn't wanted it.


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## Coccodrillo

A dead-end tunnel, what a wonderful idea


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## keber

Coccodrillo said:


> Here are the plans for A31 north: http://www.ladige.it/inc/class/easy...ile=/oggetti/2011_05&nome_file=valdastico.pdf
> 
> The preferred one is T4, but it is unlikely to be built.


Is it necessary to build such motorway? I don't see the reason, enlarging A22 to 2x3 would be enough.


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## Suburbanist

keber said:


> Is it necessary to build such motorway? I don't see the reason, enlarging A22 to 2x3 would be enough.


The point is to provide a further link that can stir up development in the foothill, bringing new businesses, making them attractive commuter towns for Trento and so on.


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## g.spinoza

No motorway is useless per se (expect if you build it in the middle of the Sahara desert). A22 will be enlarged only from A1 junction till Verona, and it is still the only fast link between central Europe and Italy (Swiss A13 is not a motorway and it's not fast). For Veneto region a complete A31 could be quite useful.


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## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Not many forumers here speak Italian, though...


brick84 does... probably he doesn't know this Italian forum subsection


----------



## -Pino-

g.spinoza said:


> For Veneto region a complete A31 could be quite useful.


Yep. Veneto gets a quicker access to the North and maybe even access to a few extra commuters from Trentino. But for Trentino itself, there does not appear to be a lot in a complete A31. I would say that the city of Trento has limited potential for attracting major new business, and for its current enterprises the access to the city is good enough. Then again, you wonder why the pushback is so strong. It's not that the Trentino environment is at stake in any way, now that the Trentino part of the motorway is expected to run through tunnels and then into the Adige valley where there already is a motorway anyway. In other words, how much downside is there for the Trentino region? 

On this point, the toll situation may play a role in the Trentino opposition. The region owns a stake in Autobrennero SpA and thus sees a few cents of every euro tolled on the A22. The A31 is, however, a project undertaken by another concessionaire. Is the region afraid of a dilusion of the proceeds that come out of the A22? But if that is the case, I would say that all bets will be on in a few years time, namely in connection with the nearing end of the A22 concession in favour of Autobrennero SpA. When that needs to be re-negotiated, the region may be prepared to concede a few points including the A31 being completed towards the A22.


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## g.spinoza

^^ This is adamantine. I couldn't explain better.


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## Suburbanist

A31 was once considered a showcase of "highways to nowhere" that motivated, in 1978 (?), the pass of the "no new highway alignment law" in Italy, that, in a nutshell, prohibited the construction of new highway alignments in Italy with public funds. Not that it was a draconian law, as it provided exceptions for alignments already planned and authorized.

They revoked the law more than 20 years later only.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ legge 492 from 1975.


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## -Pino-

So the question is, is the Valdastico a "highway to nowhere"? My own estimate is that it would generate some use, maybe even more use than many motorways and superstrade elsewhere in the country. But that in itself does not justify the decision to build. If one could extend the A31 at a relatively low cost, then a concessionaire or the Veneto region could have a go at it. But my own estimate would be that the usage levels of an extended A31 would be too low to justify the construction cost. For public investors, I fail to see the upside for the region or the country. A toll company would simply look at profits and those cannot be generated on a route with such low usage (the logical toll amount for the tunnel would be so high that potential users would rather drive via Verona). Now a toll company could justify the construction on the basis of some synergy-argument, but I don't see one in this case. 

So if the owner of the A31 (BVVP, isn't it?) decided to pursue construction of the Valdastico Nord, I think that their other motorways would be used to fund the losses generated by its Northern branch. In other words, they'll just increase tolls elsewhere. Means that completing the A31 cannot really be seen as something that is in Italy's or even Veneto's public interest.


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## g.spinoza

From Il Corriere della Sera:



> Less deaths and injuries on the roads, but Italy is behind the rest of Europe. From 2001 until today, mortality rate on Italian roads dropped by 43.7%, less than the 50% which was the goal. Italy is still above the European average (43%), but to reach the target more efforts are required. Countries who reached the target of 50% less fatalities in 10 years are Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Spain, Luxembourg, France, Slovenia and Sweden, while Portugal, with its 49.4% of reduction, is very near. Italy is in 13th place.
> 
> In 2010 in Italy car accidents with injured people were 207.000 and caused 3998 deaths and 296.000 injured. With respect to 2009, accidents dropped by 3.9%, injuries by 3.7% and deaths by 5.6% [..] "Even if the target was not reached," says Enrico Gelpi, chairman of ACI, "14.600 lives have been spared and 25 billion euros in social costs have been saved."


http://motori.corriere.it/motori/va...li_7971c66a-9d82-11e0-b1a1-4623f252d3e7.shtml


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## ChrisZwolle

The goal of 50% less is not realistic in some cases. These reductions can easily be achieved in countries which used to have a bad traffic safety, but is impossible for countries which topped the chart of traffic safety for years, like Sweden, United Kingdom and the Netherlands.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I agree, but Sweden DID achieve the target.


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I agree, but Sweden DID achieve the target.


Scandinavian countries have/had a disproportionate number of accidents on their vast rural countryside dominated by relatively poor roads. That offers an easy(ier) path to accident reduction.

Countries like Portugal, Estonia and Slovenia can reduce traffic accident rates faster by means of implementing basic urban safety measures, like better lit pedestrians crossings, pedestrian lights etc.

In any case, Italy has done a remarkable job since the mid-1990s, when its accident rate was 350% the current rate and its highways, the most dangerous in Western Europe.


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## g.spinoza

For those who know some Italian, an interesting report in the official magazine of Variante di Valico, about the TBM that will be used in the boring of Sparvo Tunnel (2.5 km). 
http://www.autostrade.it/pdf/opere/newsletter-24.pdf

This particular TBM, largest in the world, was assembled in Schwanau, Germany, transported via truck to Kehl, then via Rhein river to Rotterdam, Netherlands, via ship to Ravenna, Italy, and finally by truck to the Apennines.


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## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I agree, but Sweden DID achieve the target.


I wonder if this decrease is due just to Countries measures on road safety or largely on the increasing safety system on vehicles


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## Schwarzpunkt

Falusi said:


> I see all of them, they are quite good! kay:





g.spinoza said:


> Good work, I like your reports very much.


Thank you! 

About of A31 north: I'll prefer the Pedemontana Veneta (if and when it will open) to go from Trento to Venezia or Trieste: Trento --SS47--> Bassano --Pedemontana--> A27 :cheers:


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## g.spinoza

There is an interesting report on Repubblica.it about the A33 Asti-Cuneo:
http://inchieste.repubblica.it/it/r...06/24/news/l_autostrada_delle_beffe-18166100/

In Italian unfortunately. It tells about the stupid "inverted Z" layout, the fact that it takes the same time going from Asti to Cuneo by national road or by autostrada (but by autostrada you have to pay 4 euro), the fact that an exit had to be moved 1.5 km away from the project to not disturb a group of bats (!) living nearby, the fact that construction is bell behind schedule and, basically for how it is conceived, this road will not do it job (in fact, it is always almost empty).

They call A33 "Northern Salerno-Reggio Calabria", or even "the joke autostrada".


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## ChrisZwolle

If you're coming from A6 / A33 from Asti, and you want to go to Cuneo, you can use SS231, it's 90 kilometers. If you use A6/A33 it's 105 kilometers. 

Wouldn't it have been easier to build an interchange A6/SS231, and upgrade the road from Fossano to Cuneo? On the other hand, the southern section of A33 does make sense if you're coming from the Ligurian coast.


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> There is an interesting report on Repubblica.it about the A33 Asti-Cuneo:
> http://inchieste.repubblica.it/it/r...06/24/news/l_autostrada_delle_beffe-18166100/
> 
> In Italian unfortunately. It tells about the stupid "inverted Z" layout, the fact that it takes the same time going from Asti to Cuneo by national road or by autostrada (but by autostrada you have to pay 4 euro), the fact that an exit had to be moved 1.5 km away from the project to not disturb a group of bats (!) living nearby, the fact that construction is bell behind schedule and, basically for how it is conceived, this road will not do it job (in fact, it is always almost empty).
> 
> They call A33 "Northern Salerno-Reggio Calabria", or even "the joke autostrada".


I just read the report. I agree, partially with the enumerated problems, and part with allegations that, once completed, it will be far more useful.



> Né forse la accelererà la Cuneo-Asti. Probabilmente entro l'anno verranno ultimati altri 17 chilometri (da Sant'Albano alla periferia di Cuneo), ma difficilmente saranno decisivi per migliorare l'efficienza della A33. Andrà meglio dal 2015 - sempre che i tempi siano rispettati e da questa parte non è mai accaduto finora - quando sarà completato il tratto tra Roddi d'Alba e la diga Enel.


 The sector currently opened is not efficient at all because it requires drivers to move over a small provincial road to reach Cuneo. Once completed, it will provide an alternative to the local roads.

For drivers heading south to Savona and beyond, there will be a huge improvement on travel time.

As for the alignment, though, I agree it was badly selected. It should have crossed north of Frossano, avoiding a "gap" with the northeastern sector of A33 u/c (Asti-Alba-A6). Indeed, there should have been an Alba-Cuneo highway straight link. However, the towns of Saluzzo and Savigliano would have been "wronged" if A33 followed from Alba to Megliano. So they truncated, twice, A33 into A6.

In any case, they should extended that highway all the way to France, linking Cuneo and Gap. There is a national route there, it mostly follows a valley, and the Alpine cross is a low, easy one (at colle della Madeleine). At Gap, it would be a perfect extension for A51.


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## CNGL

The E74 follows a really weird route. They should renumber the section between E717 and E70 to A6/A21. And then extend the A33 into France. Anyways, the French E712 (A51) should be extended from Sisteron to Monestier-de-Clermont (Thus linking both A51 sections) and renumber the Sisteron-Gap and the possible extension to Italy to A58...

BTW, E74 doesn't follow this route. It goes through the Tenda pass into France, then goes down to Ventimiglia back in Italy, and then joins E80 and runs to Nice, France again, where it ends.


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## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> In any case, they should extended that highway all the way to France, linking Cuneo and Gap. There is a national route there, it mostly follows a valley, and the Alpine cross is a low, easy one (at colle della Madeleine). At Gap, it would be a perfect extension for A51.


The original project included linking of Italy and France by the behemoth tunnel of Mercantour, between Vinadio and Isola. The tunnel was fiercely opposed when it was proposed, and now France had no interest in such a route, so no Cuneo-Nice in the foreseeable future.


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## g.spinoza

Tomorrow the first km of A12, between Rosignano and Vada, will open.
http://iltirreno.gelocal.it/piombino/cronaca/2011/06/26/news/una-neonata-chiamata-tirrenica-4503787

One down... 209 to go.


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## ChrisZwolle

So what will actually open? A direct link from A12 to SS1?


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> So what will actually open? A direct link from A12 to SS1?


Yes, basically. I never drove there, and never saw any map of this completed work, so I'm not sure about what will change from now on.


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## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> So what will actually open? A direct link from A12 to SS1?


Now at Rosignano you had to exit idiotically getting out of a barrier (on the side of the highway) with few lanes and endless lines in summer.

The new system (it's actually 4 km not 1) will basically align SS1 to A12 so A12will end up straight into a (large) barrier and than continue as SS1 instead of having to exit A12 and get into SS1 as before

Here maybe it's clearer: before construction situation

http://maps.google.it/maps?q=rosign...5&sspn=0.022928,0.033002&t=h&radius=0.99&z=15


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## g.spinoza

Eddard Stark said:


> The new system (it's actually 4 km not 1)


No, the 4 km is the whole lot and won't open until June 2012, and involves 3 km of SS1 upgrading. Today only 1km will open, connecting directly A12 and SS1.


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## Eddard Stark

g.spinoza said:


> No, the 4 km is the whole lot and won't open until June 2012, and involves 3 km of SS1 upgrading. Today only 1km will open, connecting directly A12 and SS1.


I know, I was just saying this piece of construction is 4 km

I passed there and it basically means giving SS1 a emergency lane


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## hofburg

A23 Palmanova - confine di stato 


Salzburg - Berlin 003 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 004 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 005 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 006 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 007 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 008 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 009 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 010 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 011 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 012 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 013 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 014 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 015 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 017 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

exit at Pontebba

Salzburg - Berlin 018 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

railway

Salzburg - Berlin 019 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 020 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr











Salzburg - Berlin 021 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

green A2

Salzburg - Berlin 022 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

next


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## g.spinoza

Today the Cassia Tunnel on the internal carriageway of GRA opens to public. With this opening, GRA now has three lanes for its entire length, in both carriageways.

http://www.romadailynews.it/2011/06...e-passa-attraverso-la-nuova-galleria-cassia/#


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## Verso

http://maps.google.si/?ll=45.584701...Nmnv7rSEFoGNwmYqHyIQ&cbp=12,26.08,,0,2.6&z=15

Why is the speed limit on the NSA326 expressway 50 km/h?


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## g.spinoza

^^ That's because the expressway ends a few hundred meters ahead, if you follow that direction you'll see the road ending in a one-lane ramp.


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## Suburbanist

A32, after confrontation with NIMBYs against the nearby Lyon-Torino high-speed rail link work site. 1 policeman in critical condition. 20 to 200 people (police + NIMBY thugs) injured. A sizable portion of those protesters are foreigners and known troublemakers from Spain and Germany, part of the same quasi-terrorist network that destroys property and threaten lives on IMF, Wolrd Bank and G8 summits Europe-wide.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I'm very puzzled. There are some other big projects going on in Italy (Messina Strait bridge, railway Brenner Base Tunnel, many other TAVs and new motorway works), and of course all of them have NIMBYsts protesting against. But none are so resilient, willing, and unfortunately I must say violent, like this particular one in Val di Susa. I cannot grasp the basic difference that sets this apart from the others.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Video of new A4 Cinisello junction (partially) opened



TONYBILD said:


> ecco foto e video
> 
> ingresso da Milano
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscita verso Lecco/Monza


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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> A32, after confrontation with NIMBYs against the nearby Lyon-Torino high-speed rail link work site. 1 policeman in critical condition. 20 to 200 people (police + NIMBY thugs) injured. A sizable portion of those protesters are foreigners and known troublemakers from Spain and Germany, part of the same quasi-terrorist network that destroys property and threaten lives on IMF, Wolrd Bank and G8 summits Europe-wide.


The protesters have built a sort of wall using wood outside the motorway, because the plans are to built a temporary access road from there up to the worksite. Apparently it's the police to have decided to close both carriageways instead of just one.


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## brisavoine

Bienvenue en... Italie !


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## hofburg

french name of the village, big deal.  italians forgot to italianized it.


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## hofburg

there you go, not italianized slovenian name. with via Duca d'Aosta :lol:

http://maps.google.si/?ll=45.89292,...=ZjAVZTSljFSOcVZFJbqwBw&cbp=12,157.67,,0,4.16


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## Verso

Rupa? It should be renamed into Jelšane.


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## CNGL

Try Catalan in Alghero :lol::http://maps.google.es/maps?ll=40.558548,8.317509&spn=0,0.019248&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.558585,8.317616&panoid=BC5ePn0h-6yqSY9C6FSxwg&cbp=12,103.36,,2,0.73

Although is not the entrance sign, it's weird to see something written in Catalan outside Eastern Spain, Andorra or the French department of Pyrenees Orientales.


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## GENIUS LOCI

^^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alghero#Language

Anyway, Sardinian dialect is a true language with totally different idioms and words from Italian.
At an Italian mothertongue born outside of Sardinia this dialect sounds totally incomprehensible. Catalan, Spanish, or even French or Portuguese, are more comprehensible and similar to Italian... no kidding


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## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> french name of the village, big deal.  italians forgot to italianized it.


By Aosta Valley charter, all towns in the region (except Aosta/Aoste) retain only the French version of the name. We didn't "forget" anything. It's the law.


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## -Pino-

Does that also mean that the Cervinia is no longer part of the official name of the village on the South side of Matterhorn / Cervin?


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## brisavoine

g.spinoza said:


> By Aosta Valley charter, all towns in the region (except Aosta/Aoste) retain only the French version of the name. We didn't "forget" anything. It's the law.


What's crazy is there are also Francophone municipalities with French names ouside of the Aoste Valley. For example the municipality of Usseaux (Frenchissim name) in the province of Turin, or the municipality of Pradlèves in the province of Cuneo.

Now I'd like to hear an Italian pronouncing _Comune di Usseaux_.


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## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> Does that also mean that the Cervinia is no longer part of the official name of the village on the South side of Matterhorn / Cervin?


Breuil-Cervinia is the official name, but the place is not a comune. It is part of the comune of Valtournenche.




brisavoine said:


> What's crazy is there are also Francophone municipalities with French names ouside of the Aoste Valley. For example the municipality of Usseaux (Frenchissim name) in the province of Turin, or the municipality of Pradlèves in the province of Cuneo.
> 
> Now I'd like to hear an Italian pronouncing _Comune di Usseaux_.


I think the pronounciation is the correct one. Some other places are not pronounced French-style, like Oulx, where I think in France the "x" would not be pronounced while in Italian it is.


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## bogdymol

A4 near Vicenza


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## g.spinoza

A14 Bologna-Taranto.

Today 3rd lane on 21 km between Fano and Senigallia, only in northbound direction, opens. Works have been completed three months ahead of schedule. The investment of 353 M€ allowed also the widening of three viaducts (730m), destruction of 15 overpasses and reconstruction for 12, installation of 15 km of sound-proof panels and the traslation of Senigallia exit. 3rd lane on the other carriageway will open by the end of 2011.


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## 3naranze

*10 days in Porec/Parenzo, only these few pics*

A27-A28 Belluno-Conegliano. Southbound.
Belluno turnpike








from a tunnel to another one (cave ovest/west - fadalto ovest/west)








link with the other carriageway in case of tunnel maintenance








getting out from fadalto ovest/west tunnel. in close-up the viaduct from fadalto/lago s.croce entering ramp. there's no exit ramp, southbound. entering ramp only, northbound.
















in the background the northbound carriageway








beginning of the steepest descent towards vittorio veneto. right down below (about 70m) lago morto.








towards vittorio veneto nord exit and monte baldo tunnel








monte baldo tunnel








just after m.baldo tunnel vittorio veneto sud/south and the venetian plain on the background 
















conegliano exit ramp-A28 ramp


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## keber

I drove here just one week ago. It is an impressive motorway, which probably wouldn't be built today with all the viaducts.

However I was surprised with dangerous mergings on new A27/A28 interchange and yielding from the left (direction Belluno->Portogruaro). Although there is not a lot of traffic, it still should be done better.


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## Road_UK

Don't worry Brick. You're making an effort, and that's what counts. A lot of your Italian counterparts don't speak a word of English, which is a shame because it's always nice to see nice people. But with hands and feet one can go a long way. And I love Italy - the chaos, the noise and the colours. So any communication with an Italian not from NYC is worth it. 

Question. In Italy at road works they display signs stating in English: "men at work". They do this in the French speaking part of Belgium as well. Is this the name of the construction company? Or is this one of the most sexist Berlusconi style warnings that there are roadworks ahead?


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## -Pino-

Quite certain that it is the latter. Italy has its monopolies, but there is certainly not one company called Men at Work that operates them all. 

While it would be English idiom to say "Roadworks ahead", I do not think that "men at work" is inappropriate to post on signs. As a message, it is possibly clearer for people with a limited knowledge of English (and who also lack an understanding of the Italian "lavori in corso") than "roadworks ahead". The sexist side of things should then be a point of lesser importance.


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## Road_UK

Perhaps, but I've always found it a bit strange. "Roadworks" on its own would be clear enough.


----------



## brick84

g.spinoza said:


> Carreggiata is carriageway, corsia is lane





Road_UK said:


> Don't worry Brick. You're making an effort, and that's what counts. A lot of your Italian counterparts don't speak a word of English, which is a shame because it's always nice to see nice people. But with hands and feet one can go a long way. And I love Italy - the chaos, the noise and the colours. So any communication with an Italian not from NYC is worth it.


:cheers1:


----------



## Mauz®

Road_UK said:


> Perhaps, but I've always found it a bit strange. "Roadworks" on its own would be clear enough.


I think a lot of Italians wouldn't understand it. Ok, Italians don't need it, because it's also written in Italian ("lavori in corso"), but many Southern-Europeans wouldn't understand the term "roadworks".

BTW... I don't think it's sexist and I don't think they write "men at work" because it's clearer to undesterstand. I think they simply translated literally from Italian language ("uomini al lavoro" or "operai al lavoro").

Just a question: I think that "men working" would be better than "men at work" , wouldn't it?


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Perhaps, but I've always found it a bit strange. "Roadworks" on its own would be clear enough.


"Roadworks" and "men at work" are different ideas. "Roadworks" may mean that there are fences, machinery, reduced number of lanes, but it does not necessarily mean that someone is currently working there. "Men at work" means "beware! Some people are working on the carriageway, so don't run them over!"


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## 3naranze

this works! simply "men at work" is a music suggestion of a keen lover of the '80s working at autostrade communication headquartes...


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## LMB

Mauz® said:


> I think a lot of Italians wouldn't understand it. Ok, Italians don't need it, because it's also written in Italian ("lavori in corso"), but many Southern-Europeans wouldn't understand the term "roadworks".


I second that opinion. English has lots of words that are very confusing, except of course for those who have known it for years. 

What is "roadworks", a factory of roads? For beginners it may be on the same scale of nonsense as "mind the gap" (beware the expensive clothing brand?). 

Keep it simple. Follow Americans, they do it well.


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## Suburbanist

It is better just to put that roadworks triangular sign and the indication of how far ahead does the occurrence happens.


----------



## JB Colbert

Road_UK said:


> Don't worry Brick. You're making an effort, and that's what counts. A lot of your Italian counterparts don't speak a word of English, which is a shame because it's always nice to see nice people. But with hands and feet one can go a long way. And I love Italy - the chaos, the noise and the colours. So any communication with an Italian not from NYC is worth it.
> 
> Question. In Italy at road works they display signs stating in English: "men at work". They do this in the French speaking part of Belgium as well. Is this the name of the construction company? Or is this one of the most sexist Berlusconi style warnings that there are roadworks ahead?


Considerati mandato a quel paese.
Traducitelo da solo.


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## italystf

send to that country?:lol::lol::lol:

but for what reason? Because he insulted our intouchable, great and holy Leader?:lol::lol::lol:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi


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## JB Colbert

Veramente la presa per i fondelli è per tutti.


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## Mauz®

Suburbanist said:


> It is better just to put that roadworks triangular sign and the indication of how far ahead does the occurrence happens.


The triangular sign is always there... The "men at work" signal it's just in addiction to that!










Personally, I think it's not stupid! People reading the statement "lavori in corso" ("roadworks ahead") could expect to find just a bad-paved, narrow and difficult stretch of road with site-vehicles near the carriageway.
The statement "presenza operai" ("men at work") makes it clear that above all this there are also workers having a family waiting for them at home. And to underestimate the risk of speeding in such a stretch of road would be dangerous not only for the driver (and for the other drivers in the surroundings), but also for the workers.


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## italystf

Yes, he said that Italians are ignorant, make noise, etc...
Unfortunately there are still too many stereothypes, one go to a country, meet some people behaving in a certain way and thinks that everybody is so.
I don't think in other European countries everybody speak English, expecially the less young, and is very polite.
Germans are known for being respectful towards rules and laws, but if you see some of them drunk after a night on the Italian riviera you would change idea.


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## Satyricon84

italystf said:


> Germans are known for being respectful towards rules and laws, but if you see some of them drunk after a night on the Italian riviera you would change idea.


They do abroad what they can't do at Home. Not that we are so much different, if you see italians when they go to Amsterdam.....


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## italystf

That's true, people from all over Europe, not just Italians come to Netherland to smoke grass and go to brothels since they aren't allowed to do this in their homecountries.
But behaviors like became violent after intoxicated, vandalize public or private propertries, make loud noisies at nightime, dispose trash along the streets are illegal in Italy as in Central Europe and in every part of the world. If they feel autorized to do those things is because they think that Italians are rude and would tolerate it.


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## hammersklavier

"Men at Work" is an _American_ idiom--"Roadworks Ahead" sounds positively strange to me.

That said, why it's popping up on construction warning signs in Italy is beyond me.


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## Road_UK

italystf said:


> Yes, he said that Italians are ignorant, make noise, etc...


Who said that? I certainly didn't. I just said I love Italy and the chaos, the noise and the colours. That's what I love about Italy.


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## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> "Roadworks" and "men at work" are different ideas. "Roadworks" may mean that there are fences, machinery, reduced number of lanes, but it does not necessarily mean that someone is currently working there. "Men at work" means "beware! Some people are working on the carriageway, so don't run them over!"


I like the Swedish way. A picture of a proud child saying: Min papi arbited her - or something like that. Bad Swedish from my side, but you get the idea and it's understandable.


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## Eddard Stark

Road_UK said:


> Who said that? I certainly didn't. I just said I love Italy and the chaos, the noise and the colours. That's what I love about Italy.


I guess a small hilltown in Tuscany is so much noisier and chaotic than NYC or any large american city

You are really talking about stereotypes, probably based on some sopranos-style kind of television junk about italo-americans (which are not italians, but southern italians turned americans)


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## JB Colbert

Nothing compared with the Naples subsoil: the surface of this cavities is 900.000 square meter, excavated during the centuries to extract the tuff for the construction of building or aqueduct

In the case of Bologna you are talking about some canal that were closed in the last years, in the case of Naples we are talking abuot cavities that are still there.

/OT


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## g.spinoza

Canals closed? There are two full rivers passing underneath Bologna...


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## JB Colbert

Two=2


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## g.spinoza

One is the Aposa river. The other, my bad, is not a river but a canal, the Canale di Reno.

EDIT: In any case, this is not a contest for the biggest d*ck. If you build a road you MUST make sure that in no circumstances, no matter how difficult, a 10-meter-wide hole opens in it, otherwise it's bad planning, bad construction, bad maintenance. End of story.


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## Road_UK

I couldn't agree more. I've driven in Naples, and when I drive there I want to pay attention to that wild-west trafficr - I'm pretty occupied whilst driving. Last thing I want and expect is to be sucked into a big hole when I'm doing all that.


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## g.spinoza

Now that I remember, the leaning towers of Bologna are leaning because just beneath them the Aposa river flows... but at least they are still standing since 1000 years...


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## JB Colbert

g.spinoza said:


> One is the Aposa river. The other, my bad, is not a river but a canal, the Canale di Reno.
> 
> EDIT: In any case, this is not a contest for the biggest d*ck. If you build a road you MUST make sure that in no circumstances, no matter how difficult, a 10-meter-wide hole opens in it, otherwise it's bad planning, bad construction, bad maintenance. End of story.


Naples is not my city and I don't suffer of small d*ck syndrome, do you suffer?
It was only for information.

Bad planning?
Probably nobody knows exactly how many km of tunnel or how many cube meter of cavities there are below the city.

Often are road that were built a lot of decades ago, when no kind of diagnostic tools were available.

As we say in Italy, with mouth everybody are capable! 

I don't like the people that spit on their country every day.

Buon ferragosto!


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## g.spinoza

JB Colbert said:


> Bad planning?
> Probably nobody knows exactly how many km of tunnel or how many cube meter of cavities there are below the city.


So, you build a road not knowing what it is underneath. If this is not bad planning...



> As we say in Italy, with mouth everybody are capable!
> 
> I don't like the people that spit on their country every day.
> 
> Buon ferragosto!


I'm not spitting over my country. I just said that in Bologna these things do not happen, and Bologna is still in Italy. 
I'm not even spitting over Naples, I lived there some time but obviously it has many big problems. One of these is bad road infrastructure. When I was there a co-worker of mine used to say that all the time, and he was from Reggio Calabria, not Varese.

I don't think I did something so despicable or disagreeable when I said that a 10-meter hole must not open in a road, never.


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## JB Colbert

Ciao!


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## italystf

Bad planning can happan everywhere. Look what happened 7 years ago in my region, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, where "amenities" like mafia, camorra and 'ndrangheta dont't exist.
They build a new bridge along the SS552 near the village of Tramonti di Sopra to replace the 1400s stone bridge. Before the opening to traffic they tested it loading 3 trucks full of gravel. That was the resulthno::
http://www.vajont.info/ponteTramontina/indice.html
2 driver managed to escape before it happened, the other was seriously injuredhno:.
The new bridge was completed 5 years after.


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## g.spinoza

Amazing.
By the way, by mentioning Naples and its roads I never mentioned camorra and such. I was not even thinking of that.


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## italystf

Although not all examples of bad planning are due mafia and camorra, we can't deny that orgainized crime is often involved in public\private costructions that are often done with poor safety standards and in wrong places. Many buildings in L'Aquila, included some very recents, that collapsed with the 2009 earthquake that killed over 300 people, had been built with concrete mixed with beach sand, that is illegal.
Off course, if a disaster involves an old building or infrastructure, probably nobody is guilty because advanced engineering studies didn't exist at that time, nor construction law were very stricts.


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## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> Bad planning can happan everywhere. Look what happened 7 years ago in my region, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, where "amenities" like mafia, camorra and 'ndrangheta dont't exist.
> They build a new bridge along the SS552 near the village of Tramonti di Sopra to replace the 1400s stone bridge. Before the opening to traffic they tested it loading 3 trucks full of gravel. That was the resulthno::
> http://www.vajont.info/ponteTramontina/indice.html
> 2 driver managed to escape before it happened, the other was seriously injuredhno:.
> The new bridge was completed 5 years after.


Wow....

I know they are totally unrelated, but that creek/river (depending on the time of the year flow varies a lot) is not that far from the site of the worst ever engineering disaster in Italian history: a massive landslide on the Vajont Dam reservoir that created a freak tsunami more than 80m high that washed 3 villages away and killed more than 2.000 people (the dam, with its structural components intact, is still standing, and can be seen from google maps on the link I provided).

The disaster occurred close to the northern terminus of A27.


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## g.spinoza

^^ In fact, from the engineering point of view, the dam is a success: still standing, notwithstanding the massive forces generated by the tsunami which, by the way, was far higher than 80m. I remember a seminar course I attended where the lecturer said it was the second higher tsunami ever recorded at 250m. The record holder is a tsunami in 1958 in Alaska, more than 500m high.
Last curiosity about Vajont: the mountain that slided into the lake and generated the wave was called Monte Toc, which in Friulian language means Rotten Mountain


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## Eddard Stark

construction of the new SS640 (superstrada level) in Sicily: it will connect Agrigento to Caltanissetta and the sicilian autostrade system

So far construction has started on only half the route, the second half shall start within the year




Gualtiero said:


> Le foto sono ordinate secondo la direzione Caltanisetta -----> Agrigento
> scattate nei giorni 20 e 21 agosto.
> Se vi interessano i formati originali delle foto domandate. Grazie.
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## keber

Nice for that new connection toward south part of island, but it looks like they again exaggerate with long viaducts - Sicilian speciality maybe?


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## JB Colbert

Among the main benefits of this type of structure may include: the lightness (high strength / weight ratio), the slenderness (high ratio L / h), the lack of sensitivity to differential settlement of foundations, ease of construction of bridge decks with continuous spans of different lengths and curvatures imposed by the roadway, resulting in the durability of the possibility to renew the protective layer against corrosion and replace structural elements in order to increase the bearing capacity.
The viaducts preserve the soil and reduce the traffic noise.


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## Eddard Stark

They wanted to make a highway without bridge, but than the construction companies made the politicians an _offer they could not refuse_

Just jocking...it appears here is at least more reasonable to make them: there seems to be many pieces without bridges and wherever there are it seems to me that it makes sense to cross a valley with a bridge instead of a steap going down and a steap coming up.


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## Eddard Stark

let me post another reportage from the never-ending but enormous construction of the new A3 down in south Italy. Many thanks to Embankment

The pictures refer to the Padula-Lauria nord piece which was partially opened this year (even thought construction is not yet completed as you can see from the pictures). 

However A3 - after years of suffering - is starting to take its final shape. More than half of it has now been completed



Embankment said:


> In aggiunta alle ottime foto di abarth del tratto Padula - Lauria Nord, metto anche le mie, fatte tra Padula e Lagonegro Nord.
> Sono state scattare 2/3 giorni fa, sia verso sud sia verso nord.
> Sono tante quindi, forse, un pò ripetitive.
> 
> *Dir. Sud* *_____________________________________________*


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## Suburbanist

I'm a bit lazy to re-write it, so I'll just quote. Sequence of photos of Passo dello Stelvio, the highest road mountain pass in Italy. I drove from Prato allo Stelvio to Bormio and all pics are in that order.

There are 87 signaled hairpins (but "tornante", literally "turner", is a much better word to describe them) on that route and many other merely "tight" curves.

Enjoy.




Suburbanist said:


> Ho percorso la trata piu settentrionale della SS 38, cioè, il Passo dello Stelvio stesso. Belissima giornata. Peccato che le edilizie degli alberghi, ristoranti ed altri negozi sul passo siano brutte, vecchie.
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> SS 38, Prato allo Stelvio.
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> In Lombardia, la pavimentazione é meglio, e la protezione laterale peggio d quelle in Trentino.


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## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> I'm a bit lazy to re-write it, so I'll just quote. Sequence of photos of Passo dello Stelvio, the highest road mountain pass in Italy. I drove from Prato allo Stelvio to Bormio and all pics are in that order.
> 
> There are 87 signaled hairpins (but "tornante", literally "turner", is a much better word to describe them) on that route and many other merely "tight" curves.
> 
> Enjoy.


I don't understand why signs on Italian mountain passes are always vandalized with stickers.


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## Mauz®

Fantastic road... I have never driven there, but I want to do it as soon as possible! :cheers:

I was planning to do it this month, but due to a little crash my motorbike is under repair at the moment and I don't want to go there under an unsettled weather, with the risk of rain and/or cold temperature, so I'd prefer not to go there in September. hno:


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## Mauz®

italystf said:


> I don't understand why signs on Italian mountain passes are always vandalized with stickers.


Those are not acts of vandalism. but attestations of the passage of several groups of bikers/motorbikers/other.

It's a way to say "I was there!!"
Like a guestbook!


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## g.spinoza

Amazing pictures, Suburbanist. Stelvio has never been prettier :cheers:


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## Schwarzpunkt

*Italian section of E66: The SS49 della Val Pusteria*

...and after the spectacular images of Suburbanist okay I show you other pictures from South Tyrol (not so impressive): the end of my trip on the E66

previous section:


Schwarzpunkt said:


> Austrian section


map









1. A border (Prato Drava)









2.









3.









4. San Candido









5.









6.









7. The signal "E66" is placed only on some kilometer posts









8.









9.









10.









11.









12.









13.









14. The last km of this beautiful road that took me from Pannonia to the Alps. :wave:


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## Suburbanist

*Passo di Gavia*

Another mountain road pass in Italy, altitude 2621m. It is a very light trafficked one, as it connects two cities (Bormio and Ponte di Legno) that are not particularly big, while, contrary to almost every other pass, there is a faster route just rounding the valleys in fast(er) routes with tunnels and much lower passes below 1300m.

Enjoy.




Suburbanist said:


> Ormai declassata a strada provinciale, l'ex SS 300 è una poco conosciuta strada alpina che collega Bormio a Ponti di Legno. Forse perche siano Ponte di Legno e Bormio raggiungibile piú velocemente per coloro che partono da qualsiasi città dei valli vicini senza bisogno di transitare per la strettissima SS300, il passo è poco trafficato.
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> L'ho attraversato domenica scorsa, partito da Bormio alle 6.15. Traffico? 3 auto + 1 camion (in valle) finno alle 7.30
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## Mauz®

Beautiful!! Another pass I'd like to drive with my motorbike, possibly the same day of the Passo Stelvio!


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## italystf

Viaduct near the village of Atrani, near Neaples: notice the homes below it!:nuts:


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## lambersart2005

some pics from abrruzzo in central italy, a really underrated and great region

A25 between pescara and sulmona


A24 right in front of the GREAT gran sasso, loving it!


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## RipleyLV

*RA17 Raccordo Villesse - Gorizia* (upgrade to motorway standart)
Update 19.08.2011









Pictures in direction to A4.
*1.* Few kilometers after Gorizia.









*2.*









*3.*









*4.*









*5.* New overpass.









*6.*









*7.*









*8.* New toll plaza.


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## Jakub Warszauer

What is RAxx? Regional Autostrada?


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## italystf

Jakub Warszauer said:


> What is RAxx? Regional Autostrada?


Raccordo Autostradale = Motorway branck
RA17 will became a real motorway in december 2012. (hoping that the world wouldn't end in that period:lol::banana


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## hofburg

I currently call it a "bob track".  very uncomfortable to drive there now.


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## Jakub Warszauer

italystf said:


> Raccordo Autostradale = Motorway branck


What is "branck"? Or, maybe, you meant "branch"?


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## italystf

Jakub Warszauer said:


> What is "branck"? Or, maybe, you meant "branch"?


Sorry, I know it is "branch", I made a refuse.


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## RipleyLV

*A4 Santhià - Palmanova (A4/A23)*

Report has been divided to three parts.
Map of the route:









*Part 1: Santhià-Milano*.
*1.* We start after few kilometers from Santhià exit. Sign shows speed discipline on this 2x3 stretch.









*2.* 









*3.* Roads in Italy are quite empty at this time of year, that's because August is a vacation month and there are barely any companies working.









*4.*









*5.*









*6.*









*7.* 









*8.* Bus stop.









*9.*









*10.*









*11.* Approaching junction with A26. And ongoing reconstruction works on this part of A4.









*12.* 









*13.*









*14.* Emergency lane lacking on this stretch.









*15.*









*16.* We're getting closer to Milano. Tunnel under Torino-Milano high speed railway which runs along A4.









*17.* Approaching junction with A50 or Milano tangenziale ovest (West bypass).









*18.*









*19.* Fiera Hotel highrises.









*20.*









*21.* Approaching junction with A8. Fresh tarmac.









*22.* Usually this place is a bottleneck, but this time it ain't!









*23.* Fourth lane merging.









End of *part 1*.


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## Attus

RipleyLV said:


>


I don't like these signs. You may think that only the laftmost and the middle lane fits you towards Milano which is actually not true


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## CNGL

The A4 (E64 until Brescia, then E70) should change number at the interchange with the Milan western bypass as it resets its kmposts. Same with A3 (E45) in Salerno.


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## RipleyLV

*Part 2: Milano-Brescia*

*24.* Limited speed because of road works.









*25.* Concrete jungle around.









*26.* 2x4 section starts after junction with A52 or Milano tangenziale nord (North bypass). 









*27.* Fasten your seatbelts!









*28.* Aproaching junction with A51 or Milano tangenziale est (East bypass).









*29.* Noticed how the arrows have changed with the previous sign?









*30.*









*31.*









*32.*









*33.* 









*34.*









*35.* Finally arrows correspond to lanes.









*36.* At it's best! 









*37.* 2x4 section ends after Bergamo town.









*38.* Ryanair jet takes landing at Bergamo airport right next to A4.









*39.* 2x3 section again and Brescia skyline in the background.









These pictures were taken on 25th of August.
End of *part 2*.


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## RipleyLV

Is A4 from Milano to Bergamo the only 2x4 section in Italy?


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## il brutto

RipleyLV said:


> *RA17 Raccordo Villesse - Gorizia* (upgrade to motorway standart)
> Update 19.08.2011
> *8.* New toll plaza.


Is it going to be only at the same place as now or are there plans to charge already at Gorizia?


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## RipleyLV

il brutto said:


> Is it going to be only at the same place as now or are there plans to charge already at Gorizia?


The new toll plaza is located before the current toll, I'm guessing that's done to not hold the functionality of the old one, later they will demolish it.


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## Suburbanist

RipleyLV said:


> Is A4 from Milano to Bergamo the only 2x4 section in Italy?


No. A1 Bologna-Modena is 2x4 as well. A14 within Bologna (till San Lazaro) is a 2+2(3)+2(3)+2.


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## ChrisZwolle

A8 is also 2x4.


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## Coccodrillo

CNGL said:


> The A4 (E64 until Brescia, then E70) should change number at the interchange with the Milan western bypass as it resets its kmposts. Same with A3 (E45) in Salerno.


It is no more the case. Now km counting start in Torino and end in Mestre. I suppose the km of the Mestre-Trieste part will be renumbered with the third lane.


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## italystf

RipleyLV said:


> Is A4 from Milano to Bergamo the only 2x4 section in Italy?


No, there is also the A1 Modena - Bologna and the A8 Milano - Lainate.


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## CNGL

Coccodrillo said:


> It is no more the case. Now km counting start in Torino and end in Mestre. I suppose the km of the Mestre-Trieste part will be renumbered with the third lane.


OK. I remember last year they had already changed the hectometer posts in Padua province, and I though they wanted to split the A4 into two different designations.


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## RipleyLV

Suburbanist said:


> A14 within Bologna (till San Lazaro) is a 2+2(3)+2(3)+2.


Are you sure that's 2x4? AFAIK Bologna's tangenziale runs the same as Verona sud, along the motorway but divided.


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## Suburbanist

RipleyLV said:


> Are you sure that's 2x4? AFAIK Bologna's tangenziale runs the same as Verona sud, along the motorway but divided.


Technically, it is 4x2, not 2x4.


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## italystf

RipleyLV said:


> Are you sure that's 2x4? AFAIK Bologna's tangenziale runs the same as Verona sud, along the motorway but divided.


Also Vicenza, Padova and Udine have their bypasses along the motorway (A4 for Padova and Vicenza and A23 for Udine). In this sections there are 2+3+3+2 lanes, but the external lanes aren't part of the motorway (they've blue signs).


----------



## il brutto

x-type said:


> interesting, Telepass is accepted for that tunnel
> about bridges over Piave - i drove over one of them. more precisely, over this one. we got lost a bit and navigation lead us on some weird ways, and finally (our point was Noventa) they asked us for half euro for that :lol: btw, on that one Telepass doesn't work   it is more like some kind of private concessionaire, the woman in toll boot looked like she just came from kitchen
> 
> where is the other one tolled bridge over Piave?


Hehe I had a look at this, the prices went up for the bridge at Noventa . The other one is really fantastic :nuts:, south of San Donà di Piave, still costs 50c though only in summer Fri-Mon, here's the legislation of the municipality.


----------



## Eddard Stark

il brutto said:


> Hehe I had a look at this, the prices went up for the bridge at Noventa . The other one is really fantastic :nuts:, south of San Donà di Piave, still costs 50c though only in summer Fri-Mon, here's the legislation of the municipality.


there is a toll bridge also somewhere in Ravenna


----------



## RipleyLV

We continue our trip accross Northern Italy.
Reposting map of the route: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q420/Ripley9895/a4saa23.jpg

*Part 3: Brescia-Palmanova (A4/A23)*

In case you've missed previous parts, then:
Part 1: Santhià-Milano: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=83423557&highlight=#post83423557
Part 2: Milano-Brescia: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=83432932&highlight=#post83432932

*40.* The next day we start somewhere between Brescia and Verona.









*41.* 









*42.* Junction with A22 Brennero (Austria)-Modena motorway near Verona.









*43.* Passing Verona. Verona's tangenziale on the right.









*44.* Regional borders.









*45.* 









*46.* A4 and Vicenza's tangenziale tunnels.









*47.* Awesome.









*48.* Between Vicenza and Padova.









*49.* Exit to Padova.









*50.* Čau, čau! 









*51.* Junction with A13 Padova-Bologna motorway.









*52.* How did I managed to take a very clear shot of these famous trees?









*53.* Approaching junction with A57 (former A4).









*54.* The beginning of Mestre bypass.









*55.* 









*56.* 









*57.* 









*58.*









*59.* Preganziol exit.









*60.* Junction with A27.









*61.* Third lane merging.









*62.* A4 becomes 2x2 after Mestre bypass. Widening to three lanes is planned however.









*63.* Junction with A28.









*64.* Approaching junction with A23.









*65.* Lack of light make photos blurry.









*66.* To Slovenia! 









Later it got darker and it was impossible for me to make clear shots, you can view further part to Trieste in Google street view. Anyway, thanks for watching!


----------



## -Pino-

CNGL said:


> The A4 (E64 until Brescia, then E70) should change number at the interchange with the Milan western bypass as it resets its kmposts. Same with A3 (E45) in Salerno.


They changed the kmposts along the A4 in 2010. The reset at the Milano Certosa interchange is no longer there. Besides, I disagree that km-posts should be leading for motorway numbering. There'd be an awful lot to renumber in Germany ...

On the same photo series, I like the distance signs as they are posted between Brescia and Padova. Those elsewhere on the A4 are a bit too full, in my opinion. But in any event much better than what you see on other Italian motorways, i.e. only small ones in the median (Autostrade per l'Italia network) or the next few exits (A32).


----------



## -Pino-

Double post. Apologies.


----------



## italystf

Eddard Stark said:


> there is a toll bridge also somewhere in Ravenna


Not anymore: http://www.ravennawebtv.it/w/?p=5779


----------



## hofburg

thanks for the nice photos of A4! btw, what was your entire itinerary?



RipleyLV said:


> *50.* Čau, čau!
> http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q420/Ripley9895/IMG_7163.jpg


you wrote this Italian greeting in Slovenian littoral dialect.


----------



## hofburg

del


----------



## Mauz®

RipleyLV said:


> *44.* Regional borders.


This is not a regional border, but the border between the provinces of Verona and Vicenza.

In your trip you crossed the borders between Piemonte and Lombardia (somewhere near Novara, in correspondance with the Ticino river, I guess), between Lombardia and Veneto (somewhere in the Garda Lake area) and between Veneto and Friuli Venezia Giulia. 


The panel is similar... Like this (located on A1, between Emilia Romagna and Lombardia, in correspondance with the bridge over the Po river):


----------



## RipleyLV

hofburg said:


> thanks for the nice photos of A4!


Thanks. 



> btw, what was your entire itinerary?


Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Lietuvas+%C5%A1oseja&daddr=56.59385,24.19121+to:53.7226449,23.1066433+to:53.186745,23.1496572+to:52.0235,21.30352+to:51.98118,20.5173+to:51.5225104,19.9275568+to:49.9313333,18.9894047+to:49.67779,18.61702+to:47.6740785,17.5385661+to:47.2734806,16.7934077+to:46.6366179,16.2697886+to:46.084083,14.506845+to:45.87853,13.90838+to:A4&hl=lv&ie=UTF8&ll=51.234407,19.248047&spn=23.415367,67.456055&sll=47.754098,17.277374&sspn=0.391472,1.054001&geocode=FYYbYAMdVAlqAQ%3BFbqNXwMd6iBxASk5A9Lf1NPoRjGwbnMlzc8AEw%3BFRS-MwMdU5RgASmvwnERgEPgRjHJY9ZuJ0ryzQ%3BFbmQKwMdWTxhASnBbolUoP0fRzGLXgv1QT8X5A%3BFczQGQMd4BBFASmZLFsWkdYYRzFGa0T_juSu0w%3BFXwrGQMdtBE5ASn7m496ekEZRzGtcYx4nA2uRg%3BFc4rEgMdBBIwASmj4pA4l4UZRzGUEKIXacX5SA%3BFUXk-QIdXMEhASkzf8l4pqQWRzEicP5CAoDD5Q%3BFd4F9gIdvBIcASkHpPYlkAUURzHREhdSD68AEw%3BFd5y1wIdBp4LASkPW_huPutrRzGQ76jqKMQAEw%3BFQhW0QIdPz8AASnbYO7JfrFuRzHgLYjrKMQAEw%3BFUmexwId3EH4ACl_HcRVtTlvRzGgvz42HPgAEw%3BFfMvvwIdXVvdACmXwZFn2zJlRzFQ2mw1HPgAEw%3BFQINvAIdnDnUACkvzEt74Bh7RzGQU4Y1HPgAEw%3BFY6HtAIdCD58AA&vpsrc=6&mra=dpe&mrsp=9&sz=11&via=1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13&z=5



> you wrote this Italian greeting in Slovenian littoral dialect.


Actually I wrote hi/goodbye in Latvian.


----------



## Eddard Stark

madness...and a symbol of what it means to build infrastructures in some parts of Italy


----------



## bogdymol

How are the works at Messina bridge going? When will they be completed?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

"when will they start" is a more important question now


----------



## Eddard Stark

and never - i fear - is the answer

Without euro infrastructure financing (i always see rural highways in Spain and Portugal financed by europe, I wonder why such an important infrastructure cannot co-financed) and with the difficulties of both finding public and private financing for it the project is doomed

Of course Italy is a net contributor to Europe, before anyone starts complaining about wasting money in Sicily


----------



## italystf

bogdymol said:


> How are the works at Messina bridge going? When will they be completed?


They say 2017 but off coure it would never happen. If real works will start in that year it would be already a good result (or bad, for the many Italians and even Sicilian who are against this expensive and risky project because those money could be used to upgrade road and rail infrastructures in Sicily and Calabria). But, thanks to Berlusconi's propaganda works officially already started in 2009!
And those new viaducts over houses in Messina really ruin the landscape. I would never expect such structures being built nowadays, like they did in Genoa in the 60s and in Rome in the 70s (now environmentalists and nimbies protest everywhere there are big projects). But the terrain around Messina is very mountanious and urbanized, so there aren't probably other chances. And also lines of cars and trucks on city street aren't the best thing for environment, health and urban life.


----------



## brick84

*@ Eddard Stark*

Is absolutely not a waste of public money, but an investment that will greatly improve the economy of the regions (Sicily and Calabria) and so the rest of the country.

The bridge is already funded by the State and the european funds will be used mostly to cover the costs of the _TEN Corridor 1 Berlin-Palermo_ which the bridge is an integral part.

As for private funding, there is strong interest from 2 Chinese banks involved in the project (China Development Bank and another) as well as the European Investment Bank (Bei).
(Diego Della Valle, also - through the _'Generali'_- said to interested in the bridge.



bogdymol said:


> How are the works at Messina bridge going? When will they be completed?


2019
(the last burocratic steps remain)



ChrisZwolle said:


> "when will they start" is a more important question now


 you're right ^^
(of course in 2012) 
the propedeutic works go on.


----------



## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> And those new viaducts over houses in Messina really ruin the landscape. I would never expect such structures being built nowadays, like they did in Genoa in the 60s and in Rome in the 70s (now environmentalists and nimbies protest everywhere there are big projects). But the terrain around Messina is very mountanious and urbanized, so there aren't probably other chances. And also lines of cars and trucks on city street aren't the best thing for environment, health and urban life.


That area is not prime estate in Messina anyways. It is on the opposite side of the waterfront. There is simple no alternative, there is a tectonic fault crossing 1.900m from those viaducts, limiting options.


----------



## bogdymol

Thank you for your answers. I tought that the bridge was u/c


----------



## Luki_SL

^^What is the highest altitude of the bridge piers in Messina?


----------



## bogdymol

^^ According to wikipedia it should be 382.6 m (1,255 ft).


----------



## brick84

bogdymol said:


> Thank you for your answers. I tought that the bridge was u/c


well ', we say that is already under construction, because the preparatory work going on
But the main works on the bridge will start next year.



Luki_SL said:


> ^^What is the highest altitude of the bridge piers in Messina?





bogdymol said:


> ^^ According to wikipedia it should be 382.6 m (1,255 ft).


^^
The height of the towers has been updated in the final draft (delivered July 29th) and will be *399 meters*. 


the thread about the bridge:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=268204


----------



## brick84

*SS 114 - Catania-Siracusa*


----------



## -Pino-

^^ Any idea why this road is not simply called A18?


----------



## Suburbanist

-Pino- said:


> ^^ Any idea why this road is not simply called A18?


Part of it is substandard.


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## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> Part of it is substandard.


It's just bureocracy. It has 2 lanes for each directions and hard shoulders. It's not worse than most Sicilian green motorways.


----------



## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> It's just bureocracy. It has 2 lanes for each directions and hard shoulders. It's not worse than most Sicilian green motorways.


But when the CAS (Consorzio Autostradale Siciliano) built some highways, it had been granted waivers by ANAS in regard of standards. ANAS doesn't give waiver of that extent like in the 1980s anymore.


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## bogdymol

This motorway is one of the best I've ever been on:





map: http://g.co/maps/sj7yh


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## Luki_SL

^^I think so too These tunnels and beautiful alpine scenery are great


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## Trilesy

bogdymol said:


> This motorway is one of the best I've ever been on:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> map: http://g.co/maps/sj7yh


Definitely a very nice drive. I lost count of all the tunnels.


----------



## CNGL

The same happened to me on the E80 between French border and La Spezia. There are so many tunnels...


----------



## Satyricon84

Pedemontana surely will be tolled. It will pass 400 m far away from my house :bash:

this is the view from my window. Where it finishes the wall in the background on the left (that's the cemetery) will be built the Pedemontana


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## bogdymol

Satyricon84 said:


> Pedemontana surely will be tolled. It will pass 400 m far away from my house :bash:


You're not the only one living close to a major road. I can see from my window Arad bypass (part of Romanian A1 motorway). It will be opened next Spring.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Satyricon84 said:


> Pedemontana surely will be tolled. It will pass 400 m far away from my house :bash:


What's so bad about that? 400 m is far enough to reduce noise to an absolute minimum, but you can get around much better.


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## Satyricon84

For at least 4 reasons:
1) My house is on sell, and this get low the value of the dwellings

2)It will be destroy a protected area passing through it

3) cause this is what they want to built, and this means only noise, traffic, pollution in a residential zone where is already too much busy during the rush hour. It will be built a railtrail too next to the highway. With a station for goods or something like that. It means only much more trucks



























4) This is the view which actually I have to look in the direction where the Pedemontana will be built. To change this view with an highway on pylons is not so much good. I prefere to see mountains than noise barriers


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## ChrisZwolle

Is Pedemontana Lombarda already under construction?


----------



## Satyricon84

Yes, in Solbiate Olona is already started (and with it started already problems - people revolting cause working trucks passing through town in the night don't let people sleeping). Here, I heard it will start next year more or less


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## ChrisZwolle

They work during the night in Italy? I doubt that, since it unnecessarily increases cost, especially on greenfield construction with no traffic and/or time factor. 6 am maybe, but during the night? Anyway, in the Netherlands they also select contractors based on their plan, who creates the least obstruction and noise during the works.


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## Satyricon84

Here where I live will be built an autogrill/rest area too, one which serves both directions. It should be the one drew in the map up to the write "svincolo di Bellusco"


----------



## Satyricon84

ChrisZwolle said:


> They work during the night in Italy? I doubt that, since it unnecessarily increases cost, especially on greenfield construction with no traffic and/or time factor. 6 am maybe, but during the night? Anyway, in the Netherlands they also select contractors based on their plan, who creates the least obstruction and noise during the works.


If you can read italian, this was on the newspaper

Due paesi in rivolta: 400 camion ogni notte

I residenti di alcune vie, interessate dal passaggio notturno dei mezzi pesanti, protestano da giorni: “Non riusciamo a dormire”. Pedemontana corre ai ripari con un percorso alternativo nella brughiera .

Tra Solbiate e Fagnano Olona la notte non si contano più le pecore prima di addormentarsi ma i camion. Sono diventati i mezzi pesanti di Pedemontana i veri protagonisti delle notti di chi abita nelle vie Patrioti e 4 Novembre a Solbiate Olona e via Marco Polo a Fagnano. Tutta colpa dei lavori per la costruzione della Pedemontana che, in questo momento, si sta misurando con il primo grande impatto con i residenti. Da una settimana, con una interruzione nelle notti tra sabato e domenica e tra domenica e lunedì, il viavai notturno è continuo e, per decine di famiglie, insopportabile. «Non si dorme più la notte» – dicono i residenti, a causa dei lavori di scavo del tratto in trincea che poi si immetterà nella galleria che sbucherà nel viadotto della Valle Olona. Più di una le discussioni notturne tra residenti in pigiama e camionisti che, in un caso, si è trasformata in una vera e propria protesta con tanto di macchina di traverso per bloccare il passaggio dei camion: insulti, urla, forse qualche spintone e poi l’intervento delle forze dell’ordine per calmare gli animi esasperati.

La protesta dei residenti, che chiedono semplicemente di realizzare un percorso alternativo che sfrutti la brughiera e la zona industriale, si è già trasformata in una petizione a Solbiate Olona dove il gommista Antonio Macchi invita i cittadini a passare in officina per firmare contro il passaggio dei mezzi pesanti di Pedemontana sulla viabilità ordinaria: «Non siamo contro Pedemontana – ci tiene a precisare – chiediamo solo rispetto per chi qui ci vive da generazioni. Anche noi lavoriamo». Il sindaco di Solbiate Olona Luigi Melis ha già indetto organizzato un incontro con i residenti per domani, martedì alle 18 in Comune per spiegare qual è la situazione attuale e cosa farà Pedemontana per ovviare ai disagi.

In realtà la società si sta muovendo. Il primo passo è quello di venire incontro alle famiglie residenti in via Marco Polo, un complesso di case stretto tra la zona industriale e il cantiere di Pedemontana: qui un camion cisterna bagna la via dal mattino alla sera, per evitare che il continuo passaggio dei camion che portano via la terra verso il cantiere di Cassano Magnago alzi polveroni eccessivi. I residenti, infatti, da giorni non possono nemmeno aprire le tapparelle. Nel frattempo in via dei Ronchi, strada che collega Fagnano a Solbiate, le ruspe sono già al lavoro per creare una strada alternativa per i camion che, in questo modo, non passeranno più per la viabilità ordinaria di Solbiate Olona. La strada, però, non sarà pronta prima di fine mese e per i prossimi giorni i disagi saranno attutiti solo in parte in quanto la società ha deciso di diminuire il numero dei passaggi, anche 400 in una notte, fino a quando non sarà pronta la strada alternativa.

Yes here they work in the night too. In the Netherlands, which is a civil country, maybe they plan about problems before to built something. In Italy, before they build and then they think about problems hno:


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Every citizen must cope with some inconvenience for the betterment of the country  Once the highway is completed, your house will be valued much more, because probably they will allow more construction and the land value of the place will go up.


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## Satyricon84

It depends.... cause the "force" my hood is made of row-houses and villas, almost no flats and a very tranquil zone not so much far from Milan. There aren't neither traffic lights in my district.... if they start to build such things, I don't think the land value of the place will go up. Infact, citizens he don't want the Pedemontana, just the major and all other who take advantage from it want the highway. In other towns near here it will be underground and maybe for them will be better, but for us will increase only the traffic


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## Satyricon84

Virtual tour of the Pedemontana


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## Satyricon84

^^ It's funny (at least for me) the end of the video where it says that thanks to it will be less traffic. Sure, you just move a part of the traffic where before there wasn't.... it's not that with the Pedemontana it disappears...........


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## italystf

Will Pedemontana Lombarda, Tangenziale Est Esterna di Milano, Raccordo Ospitaletto - Montichiari and BE-BRE-MI be Axx motorways with green signs and 130kph?
@Satyricon: snow in Milan already in early November?


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## Satyricon84

^^ It's an old pic. The official name of Pedemontana is Autostrada Pedemontana Lombarda, so I think it will be Axx motorways with green signs


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Will Pedemontana Lombarda, Tangenziale Est Esterna di Milano, Raccordo Ospitaletto - Montichiari and BE-BRE-MI be Axx motorways with green signs and 130kph?
> @Satyricon: snow in Milan already in early November?


Don't know about TEM, but the others will surely be green-sign motorways. Possibly large parts of Pedemontana lombarda will not be 130 due to curves and environment, so I heard.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Every citizen must cope with some inconvenience for the betterment of the country  Once the highway is completed, your house will be valued much more, because probably they will allow more construction and the land value of the place will go up.


I don't think so, the house will be valued less because it will be close to a source of noise and pollution.

I mean, if I have to buy a house, surely I won't buy one near a motorway... hno:


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I certainly want to buy a house with a view to a mortoway someday, put strong noise insulation in walls and windows, and install a webcam


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## Satyricon84

^^ I sell you mine with pleasure also


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You're better off 400 m from a motorway than along any significant urban arterial. 

Actually most pollution and noise is on urban arterials because you can't put noise barriers and the street canyon effect traps emissions much more than along motorways. There is not one single location on the Dutch motorway network where PM10 concentration norms are exceeded, but numerous ones on urban roads, especially those carrying heavy bus, moped and truck traffic, even though traffic volumes and driving speeds are only a fraction of those on motorways.


----------



## friedrichstrasse

Satyricon84 said:


> We decided to live here, just because it's countryside, far from the noise of the town...


That's the urban sprawl. You want to live in a rural area within a metropolitan region, and you suppose other people won't do the same.

I don't know how you move from there, but most people on those low density-places only use their car for everything, and pretend that new roads shouldn't be built...


----------



## Satyricon84

friedrichstrasse said:


> That's the urban sprawl. You want to live in a rural area within a metropolitan region, and you suppose other people won't do the same.
> 
> I don't know how you move from there, but most people on those low density-places only use their car for everything, and pretend that new roads shouldn't be built...


Nobody here want that highway. And 1.287 inhabitants for kilometer/square is not properly a low density place. But so far, the traffic here is related to population. To don't use a car is simple, cause if you want to go to Milan, you can drive to Cologno Nord and take the metro it's 10 Km far away. You can drive to Monza to take the train, it's 10 Km far away. You can drive to Carnate and take the train. It's 5 Km far away. Or you can simply to drive to nowhere and take buses in the town. Problem is that few people do it, cause they are lazy to take buses (which are often half empty) and prefere to drive to Milan, which is 25 Km far away. Bemoaning that there aren't enough parking place there.... Traffic jams there are only during rush hour (07.30/09.00 - 17.00-18.30) if you start from here at 09.30, you are in Milan in 20 minutes cause the Tangenziale Est is almost empty...


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ The same old recycled argument: transit good, people is not.

I know quite well the area.

The Pedemontana will carry mainly traffic from Como, Varese and Ticino to the eastern areas of Milano. There is no way travelling east-west could EVER be competitive with public transportation, ALL routes naturally converge to Milano. And even the local roads. 

Whilst you have many arterials and streets from the old walls of Milano to the northern comuni, there is just a patchwork of streets on E-W direction.

Also, transit in Lombardia is a sinkhole, and still carries less than 1/5 of the amount of people traveling by car, and less than 15% of total passenger-km.


----------



## friedrichstrasse

The Pedemontana won't be a continuous highway, but an other bad patchwork, because of urban sprawl...


----------



## Verso

Let's be realistic here: Pedemontana is badly needed. Even if the A4 through Milan is empty, you'll still save a lot of time and money cutting it.


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## Suburbanist

friedrichstrasse said:


> The Pedemontana won't be a continuous highway, but an other bad patchwork, because of urban sprawl...


No.

It will be a continuum E-W connector.

The "patches" are just a form of putting independent ring roads (badly needed to free cities from passing traffic) on the same project (same name) so it fit the same funding package.


----------



## friedrichstrasse

I do agree with Pedemontana, I'd have preferred that the urbanisation had been more ordered. We could have had a straighter Pedemontana and a better urban environment.

@Suburbanist: Pedemontana won't be continuous, there will be a gap through SS 35 and no connection with Malpensa airport, as it was supposed to be.


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## Satyricon84

Look this map, what you said would have sense if Bergamo was linked directly to Como, or that the Pedemontana would follow the same track instead to be cut in two parts. Part of the road will follow the SS35, a road which is already busy most of the time. Like this instead you create a new highway at 10 Km far from already one existent which will follow the same direction. Vimercate is where A51 is linked with Pedemontana (that green point). Going often to Como to take the Como-Chiasso I searched the best route for to save time/kilometers. Taking the A51, A4 and A9 are more or less 70 Km. Taking the SS 35 are 50 Km (and I save 5 euro of tall). It's shorter only of 20 Km. And here we are talking of an highway which will cost € 4.115.000.000 for only 87 Km! It will be the most expansive road in Europe. And for what, 20 Km shorter?


----------



## Satyricon84

And for to make the part of SS35 congruous of Highway standards, you have to close it and rebuild totally for the interessed lenght. You know what does it mean? It's like to close the Como-Chiasso during holiday time. And this wouldn't solve the problem. cause before and after the lenght interessed by the highway, will be the same road of always, just with more problems due the interconnection with the highway


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## Satyricon84

friedrichstrasse said:


> I do agree with Pedemontana, I'd have preferred that the urbanisation had been more ordered. We could have had a straighter Pedemontana and a better urban environment.


Right, Pedemontana had to be built when it was projected over 40 years ago, now you have to mess up half of the territory.


----------



## Satyricon84

http://www.pedemontana.com/googlemap.php


----------



## Luki_SL

Satyricon84 said:


> http://www.pedemontana.com/googlemap.php


Great map  :cheers:


----------



## keber

Satyricon84 said:


> Starting from why the hell they want to pass right where happened the Seveso Disaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seveso_disaster) an area with high risk for the health....


Regarding that article there are no significant health hazards today.


----------



## Satyricon84

keber said:


> Regarding that article there are no significant health hazards today.


For how the things stand now yes, cause the whole area has been covered and converted into a green park. But if you dig there, nobody knows with certainty what would happen, it's like to dig on a dump after some years has been closed. With the difference that here we are talking of something dangerous as much as asbestos...


----------



## Satyricon84

And it's not properly right to say there aren't health hazard today

http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0050161


----------



## italystf

Will that section of SS35 became a green-sign motorway?


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## Satyricon84

^^ It should, cause they should rebuild the SS35 in that part. Actually the SS 35 is a 4 lane street with 80 Km/h maximum speed


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## friedrichstrasse

No idea, anyway it would be the first time in Italy of a state road being rebuilt into a highway. This part will easily become overcrowded...


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## italystf

friedrichstrasse said:


> No idea, anyway it would be the first time in Italy of a state road being rebuilt into a highway. This part will easily become overcrowded...


No, there is also RA17 Villesse - Gorizia. It is a "strada extraurbana secondaria - category C" with 80 kph speed limit and it will be rebuilt as real motorway by 2012.


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## Satyricon84

To rebuild it, they have to close the superstrada SS35. It means that around 4000 vehicles/hour will be deviated on the secondary streets. 

This video (unfortunately I just found in italian) shows what could happen when the Pedemontana will be working in the part near Bovisio Masciago


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## Satyricon84

Comparison between existent and projected
http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/foto6.asp?File=pedem&InizioI=1&RigheI=50&Col=4


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## friedrichstrasse

I do agree, but the same comparison could be made between urbanized surfaces!


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## lucaf1

bogdymol said:


> I understand that it will be a SS-road. Will it be grade-separated, 2 lanes per direction + hard shoulder?


It will be a SR-road 

It is a regional road


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## Mauz®

Satyricon84 said:


> Right. Expropriations pays 2 cents and thousands of euro wasted for it. And we are again on this topic. I know it's difficult to understand for somebody not involved (or maybe yes, have you got some bribes in this project? :|), it's not you which will lose proprieties, investiments and activities. For you it's just a good occasion to take pics to post in the forum........


The public interest is more important than the PERSONAL interest.
If you don't want to cope with it you are free to expatriate... 


> I'm not speaking of that, I'm speaking of the people bypassing Agrate Brianza toolgate on Tangenziale Est direction south. The SP121 from Agrate towards Carugate is busy, not the other way round. Hard to understand?


I know, but I'm telling you that's a trick people can't do everywhere, but only in particular and RARE conditions.

As for sp121. That road is busy, that's true. But if there weren't the A4 or the Eastern Bypass it would be way busier!


> I'm still waiting for your scientific analysis. For the moment I just heard a lot of bla bla bla...


The one screaming to the whole world that Pedemontana is a useless infrastructure it's you. So let's demonstrate it... :|


> When did I say I'm against the railway? I said that I'm against the station for stocking goods which will be just outside the exit of Bellusco, cause it will just increas the truck traffic of the area. There's a huge difference but...non c'è peggior sordo di chi non vuol sentire


You want the railway, but you don't want the loading/unloading station... So, for what purpose do you want the railway? Just to have empty trains circulating, because there are no stations? :lol: Or maybe you just want the station to be built somewhere else? Tipycal NIMBY (Not In My BackYard). :|


The purpose of the station is to put trucks/freights on trains instead of on keeping them on roads. The most trucks go on trains the least trucks you have on roads... It's very easy.

The station must be built somewhere... And it is better to build it NEAR the exit of an highway, in order not to force all the trucks to drive for several kilometres on local roads.

The most trucks will use that station, the least trucks will circulate across the whole territory. But maybe you just want to see less trucks on roads, thanks to a loading/unloading station built near somebody else's home. "Not In My BackYard". :|


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## Satyricon84

^^ I don't feel like to waste my time to reply to a PITBY, I consider closed the argument. Just one thing



> The one screaming to the whole world that Pedemontana is a useless infrastructure it's you. So let's demonstrate it...


There are committees in every town interested by the road (first is nopedemontana), majors, WWF, Legambiente and many others against who want it: the Region, who has to built, who gets bribes and other PITBYs as you. Only me? Poor illuded....


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## Mauz®

There are at least 30 million people in Northern Italy (10 million just in Lombardy) who don't even consider endorsing a committee or a subscription or whatever else AGAINST the Pedemontana.

A handful of nimbys is not the proof of the "uselessness" of an infrastructure. :|


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## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> Oh, sorry.  Why don't they connect SS36 directly with the eastern bypass (I mean with this interchange)?


Actually there is the connection interchanging with A52 which 'goes on' eastern bypass just in the interchange you posted 

Here the interchange of A52 and SS36

http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&ll=45.560616,9.242184&spn=0.005634,0.01369&t=m&z=17&vpsrc=6

http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&ll...536,0.05476&t=m&z=15&vpsrc=6&lci=transit_comp


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## Verso

^^ I know, but I meant a straight route.


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## Samply

lucaf1 said:


> It will be a SR-road
> 
> It is a regional road


Isn't this going to be an A-numbered autostrada tolled with 2 and 3 lane sections in each direction plus emergency lane throughout?


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## Mauz®

Verso said:


> ^^ I know, but I meant a straight route.


Too complicated (and too expensive), for an itinerary whichis already served. Way better to focus on priorities... 


There are already two ways to go from ss36 (in this picture "sp5") and Eastern Bypass.

First (red line): from ss36 just drive into the Northern Bypass and follow it straight for some kms;
Second (green line): from ss36 drive into A4 and follow the first exit you find, which redirects you to the Northern Bypass and then to the Eastern Bypass.


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## Verso

Will they also make a proper interchange between SS36 and A52? As far as I can see, now you can't go from SS36 to A52 westbound.


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## Mauz®

I forgot to upload the image I prepared to show how to reach the Eastern Bypass from ss36... Here you are:

First (red line): from ss36 just drive into the Northern Bypass and follow it straight for some kms;
Second (green line): from ss36 drive into A4 and follow the first exit you find, which redirects you to the Northern Bypass and then to the Eastern Bypass. 















As for going Westbound from ss36 to A52 (Northern Bypass) it's not possible, unless you do this:










But at the moment the interchange between A52 (Eastbound) and ss36 (Northbound) is closed, because of works related to the under-construction tunnel.
Few time ago there was an alternative route, which consisted in entering the EASTBOUND A52, and going straight for about 700 metres, where there was an interchange with the only purpose of making people U-turn and take the WESTBOUND A52.

But now that area has changed a lot (online maps and satellite photos haven't been updated yet) and I don't remember if is it still possible.

Obviously there are several alternative routes, but by now going from southbound ss36 to westbound A52 is a bit of a mess...


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## Verso

Mauz® said:


> As for going Westbound from ss36 to A52 (Northern Bypass) it's not possible, unless you do this:


Yes, I figured it out later.


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## g.spinoza

Samply said:


> Isn't this going to be an A-numbered autostrada tolled with 2 and 3 lane sections in each direction plus emergency lane throughout?


No, it will be superstrada.


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## OrionAQ

*Laboratori Nazionali del Gran Sasso - L'Aquila, ITALY*

http://heart-ingenuity.blogspot.com/2011/11/lngs-from-laquila-for-world.html

http://youtu.be/PAh6w95Ggyw


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## bogdymol

Mauz® said:


>


I've once done that by mistake in Vienna :nuts:


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## Mauz®

^^
Me too in several interchanges... 

At the interchange I posted, there were always queues on the ramp coming from A52 (Westbound) and directed towards ss36 (Northbound), because of a traffic light on the ss36, few metres after the interchange.

Many times I used to do a similar thing to avoid the queue (but not the traffic light, which was impossible to avoid):
-drive on A52 (Westbound);
-exit A52 and entering ss36 (sp5) Southbound;
-exit ss36 (sp5) and entering A52 (EASTbound);
-exit A52 and entering ss36 (sp5) NORTHbound.


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## Verso

:lol:


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## GENIUS LOCI

*A3*

Pics of the demolition of the old junction of Lauria Nord and the new one u/c



Embankment said:


> Foto di qualche giorno fa dello svincolo di Lauria Nord
> Finalmente stanno demolendo quel pugno nell'occhio "a forma" di colosseo (chiamato "cavallo" nella zona) e parte delle nuove rampe di svincolo sono a buon punto.
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## Eddard Stark

the pictures of A3 are always astonishing...incredible work, I cannot imagine how much money went into this enormous work

Certainly if we would have made a real "autostrada" in the 70' now we would not be spending 15 billion € in remaking it


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## Satyricon84

Yes it seems so! But you are surprised about it? Me not at all. Waste disposal and construction industry are two sectors which are completely rotten in Italy.....


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## Verso

I wonder if BreBeMi is really needed. Isn't the A4 enough? Ok, it makes a little curve to Bergamo, but still. If it's too narrow, just widen it.


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## Suburbanist

Verso said:


> I wonder if BreBeMi is really needed. Isn't the A4 enough? Ok, it makes a little curve to Bergamo, but still. If it's too narrow, just widen it.


It is already a 2x4 Bergamo Milano.

Moreover, the utility of the BreMeMi is not long-distance traffic, but regional connections to/from Milano.


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## Verso

Is there a lot of traffic on roads east of Milan (I don't mean A4)? I hope they aren't building it just because of Brescia.


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## g.spinoza

A4 Brescia -Milan insists on two very congested pieces of motorway: the urban A4 and the East Tangenziale. Part of Brebemi's purpose is to shift some of this enormous traffic to the TEM (External East Tangenziale), which is also to be built.


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> A4 Brescia -Milan insists on two very congested pieces of motorway: *the urban A4* and the East Tangenziale.


The A4 urban sector in northern Milano is arguably the 2nd or 3rd most difficult to widen urban highway in Italy.


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## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> Part of Brebemi's purpose is to shift some of this enormous traffic to the TEM (External East Tangenziale), which is also to be built.


Yes, I've noticed these plans. But are they going to extend Brebemi between this new "TEM" and the existing eastern Milano bypass (A51)? Otherwise Brebemi doesn't have much purpose IMO (I've seen a map without this extension, but I could be wrong).


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## Attus

Verso said:


> Ok, it makes a little curve to Bergamo, but still. If it's too narrow, just widen it.


2×4 and often congested.


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## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Yes, I've noticed these plans. But are they going to extend BreBeMi between this new "TEM" and the existing eastern Milano bypass (A51)? Otherwise BreBeMi doesn't have much purpose IMO (I've seen a map without this extension, but I could be wrong).












It is not its main purpose but the connection between TEM and A51 will be granted by SP14 Rivoltana and SP103 Cassanse, after their upgrade.


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## Verso

Attus said:


> 2×4 and often congested.


I know, I've driven there a few times. But Bergamo-Brescia is 2×3. Anyway, if even 2×4 isn't enough, they can widen it further, but apparently that's not the point of the new motorway. (or is Brebemi going to be a superstrada?)


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## Verso

@g.spinoza: I see, thanks for the map. Btw, does Brescia really need that huge bypass?


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## g.spinoza

No no, full autostrada specs for BreBeMi 



Verso said:


> @g.spinoza: I see, thanks for the map. Btw, does Brescia really need that huge bypass?


Brescia most certainly won't. She has already two tangenziali, one of them is already 2x3, something that bigger cities have not (Bologna, twice the size of Brescia, only has 2x2 tangenziale).

Maybe the towns in the hinterland, but I'm not sure. I'm living here only for 2 months and I don't know well the surrounding area.

BTW, eastern part of Brescia bypass is going to open in few weeks.


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## Verso

Ah, now I remember where I saw no connection between Brebemi and A51:









http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileedemontana_lombarda.svg

I guess the map focused on Pedemontana and forgot about SP 14 and SP 103.


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## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> Bologna, twice the size of Brescia, only has 2x2 tangenziale


Isn't it 4×2? I remember it had four tracks, 2 lanes each.


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## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> Isn't it 4×2? I remember it had four tracks, 2 lanes each.


Tangenziale proper is 2x2. Between the two carriageways of tangenziale, the autostrada runs, and it is 2x2 (2x3 with dynamic third lane). Despite the fact that they run parallel, they are very different: tangenziale has 11 exits, autostrada only 3, and you can't go from one to the other, except at the beginning of the section.

In any case, since I used this example to compare to Brescia, tangenziale Sud of Brescia also run parallel to the autostrada, but in this case they both are 2x3.


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## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria upgrading*

*A3 - Demolition of the old interchange of Lauria nord:*



Embankment said:


>


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## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> Tangenziale proper is 2x2.(...)


OK, I see, thank you.


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## DemolitionDave

Chi è l'appaltatore su questo progetto?


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## g.spinoza

Demolition dave, this is an international thread and all posts should be written in English


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## DemolitionDave

Okay, Who is the contractor on the project?


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## g.spinoza

It should be Carena-IELPO, if I'm not mistaken


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## Robert Brown

Does anyone know when the A33 from Cuneo to Alba (and vice-versa) will be completed?


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## g.spinoza

^^The whole motorway *should* be completed in 2013.


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## g.spinoza

Works for the enlargement of A14 between Rimini and Cattolica to three lanes proceed at full power: it seems that they can open the in-site enlarged Scacciano tunnel next Easter, and the whole lot Rimini-Cattolica at the end of 2012, both 14 months ahead of schedule.

http://www.autostrade.it/comunicati...initPos=5&id=4719986A9C83AF92C125795D00437BFE


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## Suburbanist

^^ kudos to Autostrade per l'Italia. They are one of the best private operators of toll roads I know.

Now, we keep all waiting for the opening of the Variante di Valico.


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## Luki_SL

Suburbanist said:


> Now, we keep all waiting for the opening of the Variante di Valico.



When will be the opening of the rest part of Variante di Valico?? Next year is it possible??


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## g.spinoza

^^Part of it (22 km between Badia and Barberino del Mugello, including the 8.5-km two-tubes tunnel "di Valico") should be opened at the end of 2012.


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## Mauz®

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ kudos to Autostrade per l'Italia. They are one of the best private operators of toll roads I know.
> [...]


But also one of the most expensive. A medium-length trip in Italy costs as much as a whole year driving on Swiss highways... :bash:


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## ChrisZwolle

Italian motorway tolls are among the cheapest of western / southern Europe. Only some mountain stretches approach the French or Spanish tolls.


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## g.spinoza

I think we should get rid of toll booths, thery're expensive to build and to mantain and occupy too much land, especially in a country like Italy where there's not much land to spare. I think we should introduce vignettes like Austria or Switzerland; however, I don't know how feasible it is in a country the size of Italy.


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> I think we should get rid of toll booths, thery're expensive to build and to mantain and occupy too much land, especially in a country like Italy where there's not much land to spare. I think we should introduce vignettes like Austria or Switzerland; however, I don't know how feasible it is in a country the size of Italy.


We could have electronic tolling. Vignettes wouldn't work properly, because they price required to match the toll income would be too high. Moreover, the system of financing highways in Italy is totally different.

In any case, electronic tolling should work just fine. Indeed, I wish EU came up with a scheme having an unified protocol for electronic tolling/vignette EU-wide, so that an "Eurotransponder", that would fit all cars in EU, could be used in any country interchangeable (that doesn't mean unified toll systems, just a common standard for toll charging, then we'd have competing companies offering subscriptions and devices).

Toll booths have had an unintended positive consequence, though: they require better exits with longer (or twisting) ramps, and void the proliferation of exits in urban areas of medium size. If there were no toll booths, be sure cities like Piacenza, Ancona, Genova, Firenze would all be carving for 20 freeway exits each, so that the autostrade could be used for short urban trips, defeating their purpose and creating more highway congestion.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I think you're mostly right, even if I think that a heavy motorway user in countries like France or Italy at the end of the year pays way too much. Maybe in Italy a regional vignette could be used: one for Northern Italy, one for Central-Southern, or something like that.
About toll booths forcing less exits into newly-built autostrade, this is certainly true, even if this can be easily rendered vain by using toll barriers (like in Milan-area A4, or AP-7 around Barcelona): only that brief section would be toll-free, while long-trippers would pay full price at the barrier, and builders can fit many booth-free exits in urban areas.


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## hofburg

IMO front toll stations are very well placed in Italy (they are rare), even if you change the motorway number. not like in France, where for i.e. A4 you pass 7 toll stations.


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## Verso

hofburg said:


> IMO front toll stations are very well placed in Italy


Except the one on Milano ring (and the one on the 8-lane part of A8 northwest of Milano is also annoying).


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## Suburbanist

^^ Barrier tolls are bad because they impede the flow of traffic and certainly take up a lot of land. They are also prime spots for creating traffic jams.

I don't think regional vignettes would work either. After all, the majority or car traffic stays near a relatively small radius. And then, think of the inconvenience of buying 5 different vignettes if you usually drive around Treviso, but then decides to go in a vacation to Corfú. Windshield madness. And it would be grossly unfair to pay a very high cost of vignettes for just an yearly trip down south, for instance.

The example of Milano is indeed a good one: the highways there are congested, and only a fraction of all users pay tolls, despite using the tangenziali to move around the outer districts. 

Eliminating physical tolls could also reduce, a bit, the toll charges because collecting tolls is an expensive enterprise with all manpower, security measures to transport money to banks etc.


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## keber

Verso said:


> Except the one on Milano ring (and the one on the 8-lane part of A8 northwest of Milano is also annoying).


And several toll stations around Torino - if you are in transit, you must stop several times to pay small 1,0-1,5 € tolls, often you have to wait up to 5 minutes for that, because automatic coin collectors don't work well with coins issued outside Italy. Removing those barriers would also allow reconstruction for simplifying transit connections around Torino, for example A4 (from Milano) - A55 (tangenziale nord) connection.


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## -Pino-

Suburbanist said:


> Eliminating physical tolls could also reduce, a bit, the toll charges because collecting tolls is an expensive enterprise with all manpower, security measures to transport money to banks etc.


I believe that they are going to build the new parts of the A12 between Civitavecchia and Livorno on the basis of an open system (i.e. you only pay when you pass particular points) to be charged electronically. So no requirement to stop anywhere.

But absent that type of electronic options, the debate between open and closed tolling systems is a classical one. For the long-distance driver, clearly, closed systems are preferable and they are also the fairest type of charging. But I can see the merit of open systems in dense-traffic areas in particular. Having a toll station at every exit is much trickier to handle in that type of areas than large barriers at the fringes of town. Plus at many exits in urban areas, there wouldn't be space for a toll station big enough to satisfy the numbers of traffic entering and exiting there. As long as the bulk of the traffic makes comparable journeys that include the toll station, the toll is fair on the bulk of the traffic. But for some routes, it is difficult to find a justification for working with an open system - at least for me (French A4 anyone?).

Anyway, I think that the French A4 isn't really representative of that country. In both France and Italy, the vast majority of the toll routes are closed system, which permits the long distance driver to drive for hundreds of kilometers without having to stop for toll stations. But both countries have their exceptions. In France that would be routes like the A4, in Italy you'd think of the A8, A9 and A32.


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## Suburbanist

-Pino- said:


> As long as the bulk of the traffic makes comparable journeys that include the toll station, the toll is fair on the bulk of the traffic.


I don't know what current figures are, but in mid-2000s about 40% of the vehicles using the tangenziali di Milano didn't pay any toll, shifting the burden to out-of-town commuters (mostly) and truck traffic to subsidize local traffic.

We also have many cities like Bologna and Verona where "tangenziali" were built for local traffic with money ultimately collected from tolls.


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## -Pino-

It's not very likely that that figure changed in the meantime. To a certain degree, the Milanese situation is odd. It is one of the few major towns in Western Europe where not only the inroads are tolled (for which an open system works well), but also the ring road.

If you then look at where the toll stations are, it is easy to work out that the tolling places the burden on suburban traffic to and from the North. Whilst there is also suburban traffic to and from the South (admittedly, there is less urban sprawl South of Milan, but its numbers are still substantial) and traffic between Milan proper and the South. Presumably an open system with additional toll stations at the sourthern end of the Tangenziali would yield a much fairer result. But it would come at the usual disadvantages of having an open system with multiple toll collection points...

By the way: what do you mean with "ultimately collected from tolls"? Are the tangenziali of Verona, Bologna and the like owned by concessionaires?


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## g.spinoza

keber said:


> And several toll stations around Torino - if you are in transit, you must stop several times to pay small 1,0-1,5 € tolls, often you have to wait up to 5 minutes for that, because *automatic coin collectors don't work well with coins issued outside Italy*


Is this true? Wow, seems like we're already preparing to go back to old lira hno:


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## Suburbanist

^^ The complicated junctions are cool IMO, especially because they mean it is impossible to build more of then in heavily urbanized areas, keeping the highways from becoming thoroughfares for local traffic (as it happens here in The Netherlands, for instance).


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## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Doesn't exist the rule for all euro-banks that the to provision for withdrawing cash anywhere in eurozone is 42 cent max?


I know for sure that, at least up to 5 years ago, I used to spend 2.75€ if I withdrew from another bank...


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## Mauz®

ChrisZwolle said:


> Italian motorway tolls are among the cheapest of western / southern Europe. Only some mountain stretches approach the French or Spanish tolls.


Really?
In a month, just driving around Milan, I spend many times more than driving a whole year on the whole Swiss highways network.


g.spinoza said:


> [...]
> even if I think that a heavy motorway user in countries like France or Italy at the end of the year pays way too much.
> [...]


Just driving around Milan I spend about 100-200€ a month. Just for moving around in a radius of 40 kms from Milan.

But I also drive often on medium-long distances... and all of those must be added to the monthly 100-200€ I already spend just for driving around Milan.


I read on Wikipedia that:
-in Austria a whole year costs 76,20€;
-in Bulgaria a whole year costs 666,20€;
-in Czech Republic a whole year costs 47,40€;
-in Romania a whole year costs 28€;
-in Slovakia a whole year costs 50€;
-in Slovenia a whole year costs 95€;
-in Switzerland a whole year (and more... 14 months!!) costs 32,21€;
-in Hungary a whole year costs 122,76€.

In Italy I pay the same amount of all those vignettes together just driving around Milan for 6 months.


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## ChrisZwolle

You are seriously comparing vignettes with distance-based tolls?


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## Mauz®

I'm just comparing what I spend in Italy and what would I spend doing the same in another country.
Doesn't matter if I have to buy a vignette or pay every time at toll barriers. At the end of the year I SPENT WAY MORE than a Swiss colleague.
So I think I could sincerely say that "NO, Italian highways are not among the cheapest in Europe".


But I am a frequent user... Let's calculate how much would an occasional user spend. From Milan to Fano, where my parents live, there are about 366,10 km to be driven on highways (source www.autostrade.it). No alpine pass, no tolled bridge, no EXTRAS.

So this trip, one way, would cost 23,20€. 46,40€ for a round trip.
Way more than a whole year on Swiss highways. Just for a single medium-range trip in Italy.


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## ChrisZwolle

You're comparing apples and oranges. Vignettes are a whole different finance model than distance-based toll roads. You should compare similar systems.


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## Suburbanist

Mauz® said:


> I'm just comparing what I spend in Italy and what would I spend doing the same in another country.
> Doesn't matter if I have to buy a vignette or pay every time at toll barriers. At the end of the year I SPENT WAY MORE than a Swiss colleague.
> So I think I could sincerely say that "NO, Italian highways are not among the cheapest in Europe".


Vignettes are NOT tolls. Switzerland, Austria, Hungary don't finance all (or even most) of their highways with the vignette income, while in Italy, France and Spain the tolled highways have to be paid by tolls only (with very few exceptions).

It is naive to compare costs of tolls/vignettes in countries that finance their highways in very, very different ways and from different sources.

In Italy, tolls are even subject to VAT, for instance. And the concessionaires must raise bonds relying only on toll income! Totally different situation than that of CH or A.


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## Mauz®

Comparing MY money VS the money of a Swiss colleague it's not apple vs oranges. Different ways to pay, but at the end of the year also WAY DIFFERENT AMOUNTS PAYED!

It's money going out of my pockets VS money going out of a Swiss pocket.


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## Suburbanist

Mauz® said:


> It's money going out of my pockets VS money going out of a Swiss pocket.


You still miss the point.

For a meaningful comparison, you'd need to compare taxes, how much of taxes you pay go to highway maintenance/construction vs. in Switzerland, how much is fuel taxes and whether the fuel taxes are earmarked for roads, whether local taxes on property are used indirectly for highways or not etc.

Otherwise, it is just pointless.


----------



## g.spinoza

However, the final user does not really care if the systems are similar or not. The final user only cares how much he's going to pay, and he's right, imho.


----------



## Federicoft

Suburbanist said:


> You still miss the point.
> 
> For a meaningful comparison, you'd need to compare taxes, how much of taxes you pay go to highway maintenance/construction vs. in Switzerland, how much is fuel taxes and whether the fuel taxes are earmarked for roads, whether local taxes on property are used indirectly for highways or not etc.
> 
> Otherwise, it is just pointless.


Whatever the pricing method, with tolls the financial burder for a heavy user is going to be much higher compared to vignettes.
Which is just right imho, but it is also right to point out that with a vignette system they would spend less.


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> However, the final user does not really care if the systems are similar or not. The final user only cares how much he's going to pay, and he's right, imho.


But if the user doesn't pay in the form of tolls, he'll pay in the form of fuel taxes, or income taxes, or very high excise taxes on car (like in Scandinavia and Netherlands), or annual registration fees... One must be very naive to ignore these costs and look only into the marginal cost of a single trip. 



Federicoft said:


> Whatever the pricing method, with tolls the financial burder for a heavy user is going to be much higher compared to vignettes.
> Which is just right imho, but it is also right to point out that with a vignette system they will spend less.


Let me try to argue by contradiction: if Italy were to abolish tolls today, one of the following would likely happen:

(1) vignettes would be insanely high priced (on the likes of € 2000/year or more), with much traffic clogging the non-tolled alternative routes and huge disruptions (not likely)

(2) new, specific taxes on fuel would be created to make for the loss of income from tolls (most likely outcome)

(3) overall taxes (or deficit) would be increased as the general budget would have to pay for road maintenance. Goodbye Autostrade per l'Italia standards, welcome ANAS-standards (overgrown vegetation, worn out/broken signs, fainting road marks, no drainage asphalt, dubious paving quality, projects that costs double because they get stopped and restarted over and over again)

Let's remember Austria has some tolls as well, on top of vignettes. And they are not cheap!

*The problem is to assume both systems are interchangeable, when they are clearly not!*


----------



## Mauz®

Suburbanist said:


> You still miss the point.
> 
> For a meaningful comparison, you'd need to compare taxes, how much of taxes you pay go to highway maintenance/construction vs. in Switzerland, how much is fuel taxes and whether the fuel taxes are earmarked for roads, whether local taxes on property are used indirectly for highways or not etc.
> 
> Otherwise, it is just pointless.


Without analizing the detailed use of the money by the respective Governments:
-tax burden in Italy is 43,5%;
-tax burden in Switzerland is 29,8%

Cost of a liter of fuel (in February):
-1,461€ in Italy (now 1,646€);
-1,292€ in Switzerland (in fact Italian people living near the border use/used to buy it in Switzerland).


g.spinoza said:


> However, the final user does not really care if the systems are similar or not. The final user only cares how much he's going to pay, and he's right, imho.


Yes, this is the point I was trying to explain! kay:


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Then, we are not talking more of roads, but whole fiscal policy of the country, public services, debt, etc. etc. And within this framework, whether we have tolls or vignettes is irrelevant.


----------



## Mauz®

It was just to explain that here we pay also A LOT OF taxes and also high prices for fuel, so probably there are also more funds destined to the highway network.

So: high prices for driving on highways, high tax burden, high fuel prices.
I think there are many chances for Italian highways to be WAY MORE EXPANSIVE than Swiss ones (b.e.).


----------



## italystf

In Italy, for save money, many people (including myself) use to take national roads instead of motorways for short distances (less then 50km); often it take only 10-15 minutes more but save some €s. Obviously in countries were motorways are free (Germany, Netherlands, Belgium,...) or use a yearly vignette (Austria, Switzerland, Slovenia,...) people take motorways even for short distance, because are faster and the cost is the same. And that results in less traffic trough villages.


----------



## keber

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The complicated junctions are cool IMO, especially because they mean it is impossible to build more of then in heavily urbanized areas, keeping the highways from becoming thoroughfares for local traffic (as it happens here in The Netherlands, for instance).


Extra pollution from extra driving, extra unusable space, extra lost time, this is not cool. Add 0,10 € of toll per every exit and you will cover all the extra gasoline spent there.
It is illogical to have efficient main traffic trunks with very inefficient connections onto.


----------



## lucaf1

New fuel tax:

+ € 0,11 per litre


----------



## Satyricon84

^^ Actually in Italy we have the most expansive fuel in the EU. This "professor" which introduced these excises should know (if he ever did a refill in his life) that now you're going to spend 13 € more for fill up the tank. Which will be increased much more when VAT will pass from 21% to 23%. He pretends to save this country, but imho like this people will use the car always less, especially when: insurances are the most expansive in Europe, over 40% most expansive than the avarage in Europe (http://www.oggi.it/attualita/consum...accusa-in-italia-le-tariffe-piu-care-deuropa/), car taxes, toll roads, insane fine tickets and so on... and using less the car without valid alternatives, will create a crisis into several sectors like tourism (people will go less out for holiday/week-ends) and automotive (using less a car, you don't need to change it more often). To use less a car however could be usefull for to reduce traffic and pollution making people to take public transports, but they rised up ticket prices too instead to incentivate to take them... in conclusion, who has to pay is always the citizen which in the end has the empty wallet...and with empty wallet, economy doesn't move...


----------



## Suburbanist

Satyricon84 said:


> ^^ Actually in Italy we have the most expansive fuel in the EU. This "professor" which introduced these excises should know (if he ever did a refill in his life) that now you're going to spend 13 € more for fill up the tank. Which will be increased much more when VAT will pass from 21% to 23%. He pretends to save this country, but imho like this people will use the car always less, especially when: insurances are the most expansive in Europe, over 40% most expansive than the avarage in Europe (http://www.oggi.it/attualita/consum...accusa-in-italia-le-tariffe-piu-care-deuropa/), car taxes, toll roads, insane fine tickets and so on... .


I agree with some of your complaints, but:

*insurance* - is directly related to the high incidence of car theft and collisions in urban roads in Italy

*traffic fines* - obey the law, and nobody has to pay fines.


----------



## Satyricon84

Superstrada Cassino-Sora-Avezzano SS509/SS690


----------



## x-type

i drove that road few years ago (in the middle of summer) and wondered how it looks like in winter


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Weird language order: French on the 2nd row (France around 600km) and German on the last (Austrian border close).
> Now we should also add Slovenian, Croatian, Czech and Hungarian but probably this sign was made when the Iron Curtain still existed and there weren't many people from those close countries like today.


There was some traffic from Yugoslavia, and there were (and still are) some signs in Serbo-Croatian (but not Slovenian).


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> There was some traffic from Yugoslavia, and there were (and still are) some signs in Serbo-Croatian (but not Slovenian).


This is at Gonars Nord on A4. That sign tell not to buy stuff from illegal salesmen.


----------



## hofburg

somebody got an explanation why there was f** 7°C near Gemona?? (both directions) basically Gorizia - Udine was around 2°, and the climat changes in Pontebba from mediteranean to alpine.


map1 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


----------



## hofburg

4 lanes viaduct and 3 lanes tunnel on A23:


07.02.2012 010 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


07.02.2012 009 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


----------



## italystf

hofburg said:


> somebody got an explanation why there was f** 7°C near Gemona?? (both directions) basically Gorizia - Udine was around 2°, and the climat changes in Pontebba from mediteranean to alpine.
> 
> 
> map1 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


You got those figures by Internet forecasts or with your car's thermometer? Maybe Gemona is warmer because it's in a valley between mountains, but I think it's weird that they had 7°C while it was about 2-3°C south of Udine only a bit higher than the sealevel.


----------



## hofburg

car's thermometer. it's weird indeed, and even weirder I got the same thing when I was driving back, in the evening was 6°C near Gemona again. is maybe some industry near the motorway?


----------



## italystf

hofburg said:


> car's thermometer. it's weird indeed, and even weirder I got the same thing when I was driving back, in the evening was 6°C near Gemona again. is maybe some industry near the motorway?


There is a steel plant in Osoppo, near Gemona; you can see the smoke from the motorway (on the left travelling northbound). But I don't think that it would interfere too much with climate, more likely hills protect this area from cold winds that come from the east (the famous Trieste's bora).


----------



## Luki_SL

italystf said:


> There is a steel plant in Osoppo, near Gemona; you can see the smoke from the motorway (on the left travelling northbound). But I don't think that it would interfere too much with climate, more likely hills protect this area from cold winds that come from the east (the famous Trieste's bora).


This kind of plant can increase temperature for about 1-2 degrees I think.


----------



## Eddard Stark

italystf said:


> Do you remember if those pics were taken northbound or southbound? In the first case is Fella rest area, in the second Campiolo rest area.
> 
> Weird language order: French on the 2nd row (France around 600km) and German on the last (Austrian border close).
> Now we should also add Slovenian, Croatian, Czech and Hungarian but probably this sign was made when the Iron Curtain still existed and there weren't many people from those close countries like today.


French, English, German and Italian are almost anywhere in Italy when you have to put a multi-language panel bc these are the most important languages in the EU, regardless how far the small eastern european countries are

Slovenian, Croatian, Czeck and Hungarian are fairly irrelevant in this sense, as most people are supposed to know some basics of at least one of the 4 languages above if they are travelling in Italy.

Probably what is missing is Spanish...


----------



## Verso

Eddard Stark said:


> Probably what is missing is Spanish...


And Friulan (although almost all of them understand Italian).


----------



## Federicoft

Understand? Virtually all of them are native speakers of Italian as well.
Last thing we need is a regional language mumbo-jumbo.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> And Friulan (although almost all of them understand Italian).


I'm from Friuli but I'm against those bilingual signs they put everywhere in Friuli. They are very annoying to tourists (expecially foreigners). Reading a directional sign with 5-6 town names while driving on an unknown road may be difficult and confusing, imagine if those town are written also in the local language. By the way, Friulan isn't the same all over the region. Signs are written everywhere in Udine's Friulan, so local names are often differents from those really used for example in Pordenone, Tolmezzo or Latisana. Nobody needs those signs, even Friulans feel more comfortable reading Italian names. Changing all signs was IMHO a huge waste of money. This is in contrast with the process of globalization and EU integration that is happening nowadays.








































autostrade - tangjenziàl :lol:

























In some villages of the provinces of UD, GO and TS there is the I-SLO bilinguism:


----------



## bogdymol

> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6P7yWBqfFlQ/TuzrEtu8AeI/AAAAAAAAAo4/gKw_OiPrK6M/s1600/SDC10004.JPG


I hate when they put more than one language on a sign, but the town's name is the same in both languages, so they write it twice :bash:


----------



## italystf

bogdymol said:


> I hate when they put more than one language on a sign, but the town's name is the same in both languages, so they write it twice :bash:


It depens on the situation. There are areas with 2 official languages such Italian and German in Alto Adige, Italian and French in Aoste Valley, Italian and Slovenian in some Trieste suburbs, French and German in Alsace, French and Dutch in Bruxelles, English and French in some parts of Canada, ecc... In those place is right use bilingual signs since both languages are spoken there by different people.
But local languages are a different thing. They aren't used anymore as primary language by anyone; everybody known the national language and they aren't usually spoken for example at school or at official ceremonies. In Italy Friulan, Sardinian, Occitan (spoken in some parts of Piedmont) and Ladin (Trentino - Alto Adige) are officially recognized as minority languages, so bilingual signs are allowed. But practically they're like other Italian dialect such Venetian, Lombardian, Tuscanian, Roman, Sicilian, ecc... spoken in families but everybody from those regions also knows Italian and speak it in more formal occasions. So, I think such kind of bilingual signs are useless and only confusing.


----------



## Satyricon84

^^ Preservation of our heritage. It's important to protect those minority languages. To be in UE doesn't mean to lose own identity and diversity


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## g.spinoza

Satyricon84 said:


> ^^ Preservation of our heritage. It's important to protect those minority languages. To be in UE doesn't mean to lose own identity and diversity


Making road signs confusing doesn't seem the right way to preserve your heritage...


----------



## Satyricon84

g.spinoza said:


> Making road signs confusing doesn't seem the right way to preserve your heritage...


Confusing is not the roadsign in two languages, rather is confusing the roadsign in itself


----------



## italystf

Satyricon84 said:


> ^^ Preservation of our heritage. It's important to protect those minority languages. To be in UE doesn't mean to lose own identity and diversity


There are more serious ways to protect our heritage. If you really want bilingual signs, at least limit bilinguism to entry/exit town signs and street name signs but avoid bilingual directional signs that need to be easily readable by anyone while driving fast.


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## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> I still don't know its purpose.  Nice video, btw.





WalkTheWorld said:


> It provides a fast limk across the southwestern outskirts of Brescia. An economically prominent area with a notoriously subpar rural roads network. I know somerhing about it. We could use a couple of these motorways just a few miles to the south...


I don't think this is the only purpose of Corda molle, otherwise any major city should have one. "Economical prominent areas" are common in Italian city hinterlands.

I think the purpose of the Corda molle is to be a collector of the future BreBeMi and the "more than future" Valtrompia motorway. Were they to be connected directly to A4, that piece of motorway couldn't bear that much traffic.

As it is now, without those other motorways connected to it, Corda molle IMO is pretty useless.


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## keber

So it is not connected to A21? I drove over A21 just few weeks ago and I don't remember any new interchange or junction (it was pretty dense fog however).


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## g.spinoza

^^ It is but not directly since A21 is tolled while A21 racc is not. Exit Brescia Sud (opened in 2008) on A21 is linked via a roundabout to exit Poncarale on A21 racc.

EDIT: You can see the exit Poncarale in my video at 3:04 and the bridge overpassing the A21 at 3:16.


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## g.spinoza

Today section 1 of Autostrada A33 from Cuneo to Sant'Albano Stura will open, at 1:30pm.

http://www.targatocn.it/2012/02/17/...ova-tratta-dellautostrada-a33-asti-cuneo.html


It seems like this year and next year there is a bunch of new autostrade openings in Italy. After thirty years of basically nothing this is good news.


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## ChrisZwolle

How long is that section and where will it end?


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## g.spinoza

^^ The section is approx 13 km long and it basically completes section 1 of the motorway, from Cuneo to the junction with A6. Section 1 lacks only the Cuneo tangenziale.


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## x-type

what is situation with section Asti - Cherasco? i drove it 2 years ago, tangenziale di Asti was only expressway (with very complicated intersection with A21!), then south of Asti began motorway which ended by Alba (and it had open tolling system!). there was also one small section from A6 to Cherasco built, but that was all (I had to enter Roreto from direction Bra)


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## g.spinoza

^^ AFAIK that section is still as you remember it. Works should start next fall.


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## ChrisZwolle

Apparently a circa 30 kilometer extension of the A27 to Cadore has been greenlit by the Italian government.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Yes, the Ministry for Environment gave its ok. Works could start as early as June 2012.


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## italystf

A27 will reach A23 near Tolmezzo in the FAR future.


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## x-type

i would rather see A31 reaching A22


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## g.spinoza

^^ We can all dream...


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## ChrisZwolle

I think A31 is a bit overrated, it's probably easier to reconstruct SS47 into an autostrada.


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## Coccodrillo

Both South and North Tirol don't want a new motorway on their territory, and a linking A23-A27 would via the mountains would be much more expensive than a road just below the Alps (like Vittorio Veneto-Udine/Carnia). I think and I hope the A27 will remain a dead-end motorway forever.


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## g.spinoza

^^I hope the contrary, that they wil be forced to accept. There is no room for particularism in a global world.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ New motorways in the Alps are not very well perceived anywhere nowadays.


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ New motorways in the Alps are not very well perceived anywhere nowadays.


I know, but this is not engraved in stone, you know. Things change.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Sure. For example in the last 20 to 30 years political views changed from an "all road" view to the inverse or something intermediate. In the future, who knows?

In the case of A27 I see more bypasses for villages along SS51 to Cortina d'Ampezzo as more realistic.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I think, as italysf said, that the most probable - but very far in the future - solution is a link to the A23 at Tolmezzo. Which is useless, to me.

But one can dream of a Venice-Munich


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## keber

g.spinoza said:


> solution is a link to the A23 at Tolmezzo. Which is useless, to me.


Not only for you. I think better solution would be more town bypasses and base tunnels on high mountain passes. That could be built much sooner than any motorway and would serve for decades before any real need for motorway. 
The need for motorways is more or less through existing valleys and not in making new corridors as this would be the case with A23-A27 proposal. Therefore I would rather see A10 (A) - A22 (I) motorway connection to be completed (currently only 4 km).

PS. Why there are no road numbers for Sud Tirol in Google Maps?


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Therefore I would rather see A10 (A) - A22 (I) motorway connection to be completed (currently only 4 km).


I don't understand which motorway are you talking about. A10 and A22 are very distant from each other.


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## ChrisZwolle

I think he means an east-west route via Lienz and Brunico.

It's a fairly easy route to construct, the valleys are wide enough to support a motorway running through it. Tunneling could be done mostly for landscaping instead of physical barriers.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think he means an east-west route via Lienz and Brunico.
> 
> It's a fairly easy route to construct, the valleys are wide enough to support a motorway running through it. Tunneling could be done mostly for landscaping instead of physical barriers.


I completely agree, even if I doubt on its usefulness. However keber wrote about 4 km completion of such motorway, but I don't think it exists at all.


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## ChrisZwolle

There is a short spur of A10 near Spittal in Austria, which opened in 1973.


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## g.spinoza

Didn't know that. Good to know.


----------



## Pfosten

i've got the opinion that the extension of the a27 to a23 is senseless!
there are much more more important projects in italy, which should be realised....
namely a15 nogarole rocca - parma, autostrada cremona - adriatic coast and the northern part of a31!


----------



## g.spinoza

Pfosten said:


> i've got the opinion that the extension of the a27 to a23 is senseless!
> there are much more more important projects in italy, which should be realised....
> namely a15 nogarole rocca - parma, autostrada cremona - adriatic coast and the northern part of a31!


The fact that those are to be realized does not mean that other projects are valuable too.
I beg to differ on A15-Nogarole rocca. Since the project is also colled TiBre (Thyrrenian - Brenner), and the link with central Europe is key, it makes no sense to join A15 at Nogarole Rocca. The only thing to do would be go straight and connect it to SS450 in Peschiera, and upgrade it to motorway standard all the way to Affi, where it would link directly to A22.
Otherwise you will see a lot of TIRs exiting the motorway near Goito, going through Valeggio sul Mincio end re-entering the superstrada in Peschiera. It's free, and way shorter.


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## F81

If (I) A22 - (A) A10 connection was built, a future extension of A27 could be till Dobbiaco joining the new motorway. Joining A27 with A23 here instead is useless, better an A28-A23 connection.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Unfortunately the main obstacle is Südtirol. They don't want a single new motorway on "their" territory (but we should remind them that the territory is ours, not theirs), let alone 2.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't see the advantage of letting A27 connect to A23 either, it's hardly shorter for through traffic. It's better to keep through traffic on the flatter A23 and A4 than on A27. 

What would be the best option to extend A27 further north from Cadore? You can either go west via Cortina d'Ampezzo or east via SS 52. Both routes require significant tunneling to cross the mountain passes which are up to 1.600 meters high at both routes. It's not worth to bore a 10+ km tunnel for the Toblach area alone, so maybe diverting it off SS 52 to B109 in the Sillian area, to connect to the Felbertauern express route. I doubt if it needs to be a full-blown motorway though, I think a 2+1 express route will be "leistungsfähig" as the Germans say. (capable of the needed performance).


----------



## hofburg

exactly. A27 should go until Dobbiaco where it should join A10 [A] - A22.

and some expressway Tolmezzo - Cadore would also be nice :|


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## g.spinoza

The best feasable option would be to go through Cortina-Dobbiaco. From there, it would either go west to A22 or east towards the Austrian A10. Obviously, the best of both worlds (but quite unfeasable) would be sticking to the original Venice-Munich plan, i.e from Brunico to Valle Aurina, then a tunnel to the Zillertal. But this is just a dream.


----------



## italystf

Connecting A27 and A23 via mountains is useless because Venice - Villach trough that route will be longer than the curren A4 - A23 route. It would be useful connect Pordenone (A28) with Gemona (A23), through a mostly flat area. That route would be shorter and easier to build. It's not clear if they will build it as motorway or expressway ("Pedemontana Friulana").
Off course the A31 - A22 link should be completed because it's extremely important for traffic between North East Italy and Central Europe, but it would be difficult because of NIMBY opposition in Trentino and also a 10km tunnel would be required.



ChrisZwolle said:


> There is a short spur of A10 near Spittal in Austria, which opened in 1973.


Wow, I never heard of that plan to connect I and A. And I sometimes wonder the reason of that short motorway near Spittal.


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> What would be the best option to extend A27 further north from Cadore?


The Cimabanche/Sorabances/Gemärk Pass (Cortina-Toblach) is very good and don't really need a tunnel in my opinion. If the A27 has to be lengthened but cannot reach Tirol (north or south it's the same), then I think some improvements on the existing roads would be better value for money (like a bypass Perarolo A27-Venas SS 51).


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ If deemed of national interest, a highway should be built regardless of local NIMBY people thinking they are living in pre-1861 Italy, or better yet, on the late medieval period. People living in valleys in mountainous areas must cope with the fact their valleys are natural communication arteries and have been since Roman times.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> It would be useful connect Pordenone (A28) with Gemona (A23), through a mostly flat area. That route would be shorter and easier to build. It's not clear if they will build it as motorway or expressway ("Pedemontana Friulana").


Would that motorway/expressway really be necessary?


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ If deemed of national interest, a highway should be built regardless of local NIMBY people thinking they are living in pre-1861 Italy, or better yet, on the late medieval period. People living in valleys in mountainous areas must cope with the fact their valleys are natural communication arteries and have been since Roman times.



Unfortunately it does not work that way with Südtirol. We basically surrendered to them in the early '70, because of the bombing and the killing they made, and now they can do whatever they want, even canceling Italian toponyms (which often are older than the German ones), even blocking projects of national interests.


----------



## keber

Coccodrillo said:


> The Cimabanche/Sorabances/Gemärk Pass (Cortina-Toblach) is very good and don't really need a tunnel in my opinion. If the A27 has to be lengthened but cannot reach Tirol (north or south it's the same), then I think some improvements on the existing roads would be better value for money (like a bypass Perarolo A27-Venas SS 51).


True. I was there on a pretty busy summer weekend - yes there is quite a lot of traffic, but a motorway would be really useful only on already proposed extension of A27. Further to Cortina just few 1+1 bypasses are needed and maybe some straightened sections, nothing more.

About A10 (A) - A22 (I) connection:
motorway was really planned in 60 and 70ies, but later idea was abandoned. Now Austrian side is (very) slowly making progress with new bypasses but on Italian side nothing is happening. There is not enough traffic to justify motorway but with new bypasses it is becoming pretty useful connection.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Would that motorway/expressway really be necessary?


It will short the route between Verona and Villach (combined with Pedemontana Veneta) and put traffic out the already overcrowded A4. Pedemontana Veneta would be useless without A28 - A23 link. Now Pordenone and Belluno are quite isolated, with no fast connections towards the north.


----------



## geor

Suburbanist said:


> ^^There is an accident sign (red), then: "it is advised to take alternative routes"


I think this would be more acceptable for many tourists, especially when VMS is before the end of queue. As for Italians, they can write text message below.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## g.spinoza

^^geor, Italy is one of the few countries that seldom uses English text in VMS. In Germany they only use German, in France don't even let me start, their whole world is in French. In Spain they use Spanish, and, think about that, sometimes Catalan, how useful is that.


----------



## Satyricon84

^^ I also saw German on the A4 between Bergamo and Milan to say that there were 12 kilometers of queue northbound before the Gotthard tunnel last summer. Not italian and german...only german.


----------



## geor

AFAIK MW Company A.Venete in Palmanova works on new project with Croatian colleagues. That includes different ways of distributing important traffic info via VMS portals on MW and exchanging info between them (Cro A1,A6,A7-It A4,A23,A28).

http://www.quiautovie.autovie.it/CMS_Display/display_magazine.aspx


----------



## italystf

geor said:


> AFAIK MW Company A.Venete in Palmanova works on new project with Croatian colleagues. That includes different ways of distributing important traffic info via VMS portals on MW and exchanging info between them (Cro A1,A6,A7-It A4,A23,A28).


Ignoring there is another country in between.


----------



## geor

italystf said:


> Ignoring there is another country in between.


No, Italy and Slovenia have already done theirs project, as well as Croatia and Slovenia


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> True, but for no reason you drive more than half GRA at once.


Yes, that's what I meant.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Suburbanist said:


> ^^There is an accident sign (red), then: "it is advised to take alternative routes"


it looks fake


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> ^^geor, Italy is one of the few countries that seldom uses English text in VMS. In Germany they only use German, in France don't even let me start, their whole world is in French. In Spain they use Spanish, and, think about that, sometimes Catalan, how useful is that.


I strongly have to disagree there. The French are brilliant in the usage of other languages depending where you are. Around Calais all information is displayed in English as well, and near the German border they use a lot of German. And near the Mont Blanc and Frejus tunnels, you will find a lot of Italian displayed. And on 107.7 FM traffic is updated in English on a lot of routes. 

Routes to and from the sun have displays in French, English and German.

Some information and warning signs are displayed in other languages as well, and around the Lille area you even find information displayed in Dutch. Road side facilities are in English as well.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I don't know what to say, around Perpignan there are no info in Spanish, near Nice there is nothing in Italian, and the same before the Frejus tunnel.


----------



## -Pino-

I share Spinoza's experience. Surely you will find a couple of signs in other languages on French motorways, but they are relatively far in between (though I have to admit that I have never been around Calais). The most prominent signs are signs that tell trucks to use low gear or that they cannot drive through Lille. 

Italy does indeed go an extra mile by using English as a second language on all VMS that indicate road works and sometimes even as the only language when it comes to directing tourist traffic onto alternative routes.

107.7 FM in France gives updates in the English language, but so does Isoradio in Italy.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Do you know if there are some German radio stations broadcasting traffic info also in English? When I lived there I used to listen to Antenne Bayern but they only broadcast in German, which was quite difficult for me to understand, especially in the first months.


----------



## -Pino-

I'm not aware of any German mainstream radio station broadcasting traffic information in other languages than German. The difference between Germany and France/Italy is of course that Germany's traffic information comes from radio stations with a general audience, not from a station like 107.7 or Isoradio that focus on the motorist. For non-motorists listening to the German radio, it is already boring enough to have traffic updates as long and regular as German radio stations do, let alone to also listen to the same repeated in English.

What I don't know, however, is whether any of the digital traffic information channels that are around these days offer traffic information in languages other than German. And I don't know whether the radio stations operated by the US and British forces in some parts of Germany have traffic information.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Do you know if there are some German radio stations broadcasting traffic info also in English? When I lived there I used to listen to Antenne Bayern but they only broadcast in German, which was quite difficult for me to understand, especially in the first months.


While around Garda you have several radio stations broadcasting in German. Slovenia is good at English VMS too...


----------



## x-type

in HR during the summer period there are often traffic information in english, german and italian on radio


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Are Slovenian and Croatian mutually intelligible?


----------



## x-type

basicly yes. people from northwestern Croatia shouldn't have many problems with understanding a Slovenian speaking slowly. but somebody from southern Croatia will not understand Slovenian that easy if he never had a touch with them.


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Are Slovenian and Croatian mutually intelligible?


From a purely theoretical point of view, I doubt (except with northern- and western Croatian dialects (including Zagreb)). I think it has more to do with our proximity and having been in the same country, with (Serbo-)Croatian as the main language. We also travel a lot to each other's countries. For example, I can't speak other Slavic languages and I don't understand them very well either. Sorry for OT.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> From a purely theoretical point of view, I doubt (except with northern- and western Croatian dialects (including Zagreb)). I think it has more to do with our proximity and having been in the same country, with (Serbo-)Croatian as the main language. We also travel a lot to each other's countries. For example, I can't speak other Slavic languages and I don't understand them very well either. Sorry for OT.


Or maybe some words are similar and other not but understanding some of them you can have a clue of the sentence. Like Italian and Spanish.


----------



## Verso

^^ Yes, it's probably like Italian and Spanish. But not like Czech and Slovak, they're much more similar.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I apologize for the ot. I was just curious when x-type said that Croatian radio sometimes broadcasts info traffic in other languages and didn't mention Slovenianan.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> But not like Czech and Slovak, they're much more similar.


Or Croatian and Serbian, only the script is different.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Or Croatian and Serbian, only the script is different.


no, croatian and serbian are way more similare to each other than croatian and slovenian. but again, some croatian dialects are very similar to slovenian and Serbs wouldn't understand them at all.
i am in contact with Slovenians every day, so that's why it doesn't seem to be large difference to me, but actually there is.


----------



## italystf

x-type said:


> no, croatian and serbian are way more similare to each other than croatian and slovenian. but again, some croatian dialects are very similar to slovenian and Serbs wouldn't understand them at all.
> i am in contact with Slovenians every day, so that's why it doesn't seem to be large difference to me, but actually there is.


And what kind of language was Serbocroatian, if Croatian and Serbian are different?


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Or Croatian and Serbian, only the script is different.


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=89056775#post89056775


----------



## g.spinoza

An interesting photographic report about abandoned Italian railways converted into bicycle paths, with some "before and after" comparisons.

http://viaggi.repubblica.it/multimedia/da-ferrovia-a-pista-ciclabile-l-italia-piu-slow/31544400/1/1


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> And what kind of language was Serbocroatian, if Croatian and Serbian are different?


serbocroatian is a relic from yugoslav times. it actually considers both croatian and serbian grammars correct. imagine czechoslovakian or castellocatalan languages. that would be it.


----------



## ptscout




----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I drove on that a couple of weeks ago but in the opposite direction (Vipiteno/Sterzing -> Brennero -> Innsbruck. Love that road.


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## hofburg

nice views on the motorway!


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## g.spinoza

http://www.liberoquotidiano.it/news...oma-Fiumicino-Muore-dilaniato-dalle-auto.html

A man has ben killed on the A91 Roma-Fiumicino today, while *walking on the overtake lane*. The body was torn apart by several cars and identification was impossible.

O__O


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## hofburg

Lago di Cavazzo


DSC09462 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

fiume Fella


DSC09461 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

Iof di Montasio (2753m)


DSC09455 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


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## hofburg

Pontebba


DSC09452 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


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## Verso

hofburg said:


> Iof di Montasio (2753m)


Jôf di Montasio, to be precise. Is "ô" a Friulan letter? How is it pronounced?


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## Federicoft

Nope, jôf is a Friulian word.


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## Verso

Federicoft said:


> Nope, jôf is a Friulian word.


That's what I wrote. (after editing )


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## Federicoft

Ok. 
Just asked to a Friulian friend: it is pronounced as a long 'o'.


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## Verso

Cool. I used to think it was an entirely Friulan expression, but they call it Jôf dal Montâs.


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## SeanT

Maybe like the HU "ó".


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## hofburg

I avoided to write everything in 3 languages, and then Verso shows up


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Where is that?
> 
> Try to use Google Street View on it.


Here (more or less):

http://maps.google.it/maps?q=roma&h...id=CGbb1c49j8iWeufWMpgtbA&cbp=12,1.87,,0,8.42



> By the way, does it make sense to avoid the A4 in Milano in rush hours by using the eastern and western bypasses (A51, A50)?


I really don't think so. A51 and A50 are often more crowded than urban A4.


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> Here (more or less):
> 
> http://maps.google.it/maps?q=roma&h...id=CGbb1c49j8iWeufWMpgtbA&cbp=12,1.87,,0,8.42


I didn't know that was an expressway (only a section to the north is orange-coloured). Can you post a link (Google Maps) from where to where it's grade-separated?


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## g.spinoza

Not really, I've never been there. What I know is that a certain part of that road (the infamous "sopraelevata") is going to be demolished and replaced with a new route, partly in tunnel.

EDIT: if you understand some Italian (or use google translate  ) here is the link on Wikipedia:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangenziale_Est_di_Roma


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## Suburbanist

^^ _romani_ cry-babies... there is nothing wrong with the elevated expressway there, it shouldn't even be partially closed at night.


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## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ _romani_ cry-babies... there is nothing wrong with the elevated expressway there, it shouldn't even be partially closed at night.


Eheh, you'd think the same if you bought a house there before the expressway was built and afterwards it lost half its value.

To see how the sopraelevata looks like, take a look at this clip from "Fantozzi":


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## Suburbanist

^^ In such cases, the houses at the highway level or below should be acquired by the government, noise barriers put up and everybody else will just have a view from the highway.

Can't see how it is different than having a major railway passing in front.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ In such cases, the houses at the highway level or below should be acquired by the government, noise barriers put up and everybody else will just have a view from the highway.
> 
> Can't see how it is different than having a major railway passing in front.


It's not very different, but I never said otherwise.

However, the sopraelevata part is not very long - 1 km or so.

EDiT: Here another video, not from comedy movies:


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> Can't see how it is different than having a major railway passing in front.


Rail: only noise
Highway: noise + toxic air pollution (higher possibility of have cancer in the future)


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ And maybe also the fact that rail traffic is not continuous, while highway traffic is.


----------



## keber

This is however better in my opinion as long as it is not too loud.

Probably Sopraelevata is always jammed, right? I remember when I came to Rome with the train and this was first real urban thing noticed - a massive elevated road over railway, full of non-moving vehicles in the middle of the day.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Yes, being one of very few "fast" connections within the city, it is often jammed.
Its nighttime closure is due to the noise: people living nearby (and as you can see in the "Fantozzi" video I posted, nearby means REAL nearby) couldn't sleep at all.

New Circonvallazione should open in few months, though, and Sopraelevata be dismantled. It will be, fortunately, only a bad memory from the past.


----------



## hofburg

lol @ the video.

I love italian sopraelevata's.


----------



## Thorin

Verso said:


> I didn't know that was an expressway (only a section to the north is orange-coloured). Can you post a link (Google Maps) from where to where it's grade-separated?


http://maps.google.it/maps?saddr=Ci...;FVvcfwIdeJy9AA&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=18&t=m&z=12


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## Verso

^^ Grazie. What's the difference between the orange and yellow parts? (I'll look at them in Google Street View, but I ask anyway)


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> ^^ Grazie. What's the difference between the orange and yellow parts? (I'll look at them in Google Street View, but I ask anyway)


Pratically nothing. Google isn't always accurate.


----------



## Eddard Stark

In the circonvallazione interna route there is also the tunnel "Giovanni XXIII" which is a very long tunnel to be in a urban environment. almost 3 km


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## Verso

italystf said:


> Pratically nothing. Google isn't always accurate.


Looks like the orange part has hard shoulders, so it's wider and more comfortable to drive on. But I don't like those gas stations with inexistent acceleration- and deceleration lanes, especially since there're hard shoulders you could use.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Verso said:


> Looks like the orange part has hard shoulders, so it's wider and more comfortable to drive on. But I don't like those gas stations with inexistent acceleration- and deceleration lanes, especially since there're hard shoulders you could use.


consider the oldest parts were built for the 1960 olimpic games...


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## Verso

^^ Are there plans to make it a full ring?


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## italystf

Verso said:


> ^^ Are there plans to make it a full ring?


Yes, the so called 'Circonvallazione verde'.


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## ChrisZwolle

You can see old vs new in Google Earth:


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## Luki_SL

^^How long this new interchange was constructed at all ? I remember last year, the old section of A3 was demolished.


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## Federicoft

Existing and planned motorways (incl. upgrades).










Map by barracudabat, from the Italian forum.


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## Suburbanist

^^ That map is inconsistent. It considers some expressways as motorways (autostrada) and others not.


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## Verso

It's still a very useful map though.


----------



## -Pino-

Looking at the Italian forum thread, it seems that the map was not intended to distinguish between autostrade and superstrade, but rather between existing and future. But among the red routes (the future ones), I still see a few routes that are actual. Notably the E45 Ravenna - Orte (probably red in light of the upgrade plans), the Northern part of the Ionica, the superstrada Siena - Bettolle and the FiPiLi. Sardegna also has a number of superstrade not even indicated on the map.

Finally, one should note that a number of "future" roads are unlikely to be constructed in the next two decades or so. Lauria - Colle di Gioia is at a very preliminary stage, extension of the A33 towards the French border is in my opinion completely unlikely to ever occur, as is an extension of the A22 to Lucca.


----------



## italystf

What's the point of extending A27 few kms north of Belluno if they would never connect it to Austria?


----------



## keber

Probably to alleviate congestions on existing SS51 until intersection with SS51bis.
Last year I was there and it is pretty congested on weekends, after that intersection toward Cortina it's much better despite many towns between.


----------



## Pfosten

-Pino- said:


> Looking at the Italian forum thread, it seems that the map was not intended to distinguish between autostrade and superstrade, but rather between existing and future. But among the red routes (the future ones), I still see a few routes that are actual. Notably the E45 Ravenna - Orte (probably red in light of the upgrade plans), the Northern part of the Ionica, the superstrada Siena - Bettolle and the FiPiLi. Sardegna also has a number of superstrade not even indicated on the map.
> 
> Finally, one should note that a number of "future" roads are unlikely to be constructed in the next two decades or so. Lauria - Colle di Gioia is at a very preliminary stage, extension of the A33 towards the French border is in my opinion completely unlikely to ever occur, as is an extension of the A22 to Lucca.


As well as San Remo - Predosa!


----------



## italystf

Dreaming is so beautiful


----------



## g.spinoza

IpvNet said:


> Stelvio Pass Toll? How much ?


It will be introduced starting from 1st January 2013 and it will probably cost 8 euro, only from Südtirol side.



Verso said:


> It's the expressway we talked about recently?


Yup.



Pfosten said:


> As well as San Remo - Predosa!


Albenga-Predosa is still in project, but in a much more advanced stage than Modena-Lucca, for instance.


----------



## hofburg

*Lago di Cavazzo (A23) *


map par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


DSC09618 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


DSC09617 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


DSC09626 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


DSC09630 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


DSC09631 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


DSC09620 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


DSC09623 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


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## g.spinoza

According to Toto Constructions, who's digging Ripoli tunnel on Variante di Valico, the tunnel itself and the motorway beside it will be rendered unusable in few years due to the infamous Ripoli landslide.

http://bologna.repubblica.it/cronac...nutilizzabile_l_autostrada_del_sole-34364963/


----------



## keber

This is around here I presume? Even current autostrada has a deviation, apparently built after A1 opening.

Interesting that they decided to build tunnel into such landslide if they've had apparent problems before. Slovenian H4 was built on similar landslide and alignment was partly relocated already during first construction works (less tunnels, more retaining walls and more viaducts were built instead but construction was still very costly and long).


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> This is around here I presume? Even current autostrada has a deviation, apparently built after A1 opening.


More or less, just a tad north between Ripoli and S.Maria Maddalena.



> Interesting that they decided to build tunnel into such landslide if they've had apparent problems before. Slovenian H4 was built on similar landslide and alignment was partly relocated already during first construction works (less tunnels, more retaining walls and more viaducts were built instead but construction was still very costly and long).


Italian mysteries... they knew the landslide was there but it was classified as "quiescent". Maybe they thought they could dig without having it activated... apparently they were wrong.


----------



## g.spinoza

Some pictures of the laying of Pedemontana Lombarda's overpass over A8:

(EDIT: You can also see a video here)


http://milano.corriere.it/milano/ga..._bad56d28-9502-11e1-ad93-f55072257a20.shtml#1


----------



## g.spinoza

CIPE (Inter-ministerial committee for economic planning) approved the preliminary project for Via del Mare, a tolled superstrada that will link A4 and Jesolo, in Veneto. The superstrada will be 18.8 km long and pass through the municipalities of Roncade, Meolo, Musile di Piave, San Donà di Piave and Jesolo. Budget is 200 million euros.

http://www.veneziatoday.it/cronaca/ok-cipe-autotrada-jesolo.html


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## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> 200 million euros.


Thrown away hno:


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## Satyricon84

A51 Tangenziale est southbound in Vimercate saw from the SP45 junction


----------



## brick84

*Video summary of the work on the A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*
(in Italian)


----------



## g.spinoza

I quote myself from the Italian thread, with some pictures of A14 enlargement works:



g.spinoza said:


> Galleria Scacciano:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tre corsie tra Cattolica e Pesaro:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Galleria Del Boncio:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Galleria Case Bruciate:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Galleria Novilara:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tre corsie Fano-Senigallia.


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## Road_UK

There is no end to these roadworks. A few months ago on my way to Ancona I got so annoyed by the length and slightly breaking the speed limit, that I decided to put my foot down and go like hell...

Yeah yeah I know, naughty naughty...


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## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> There is no end to these roadworks. A few months ago on my way to Ancona I got so annoyed by the length and slightly breaking the speed limit, that I decided to put my foot down and go like hell...
> 
> Yeah yeah I know, naughty naughty...


Quote you on everything, roadworks are marked with 80 km/h limit but it's almost impossible going slower than 100. I can't say I "went like hell" but sometimes I pushed the pedal too...

A14 works are lenghty but fortunately there is end: in some stretches they're almost 1 year ahead with respect to the schedule...


----------



## Eddard Stark

Road_UK said:


> There is no end to these roadworks. A few months ago on my way to Ancona I got so annoyed by the length and slightly breaking the speed limit, that I decided to put my foot down and go like hell...
> 
> Yeah yeah I know, naughty naughty...


no end in terms of how long they are (it's about 100 km, but many pieces are already open) or because they have been going on for long? because the latter is not true, they are actually doing everything surprisingly fast for italy


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## Road_UK

Eddard Stark said:


> no end in terms of how long they are (it's about 100 km, but many pieces are already open) or because they have been going on for long? because the latter is not true, they are actually doing everything surprisingly fast for italy


Yes, I was talking about the length...


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## Eddard Stark

Road_UK said:


> Yes, I was talking about the length...


Rereading your post it's quite ovious, sorry

Anyway we are already passed the worst period. Now with some km open between Cattolica and Pesaro and between Fano and Senigallia it's actually much better...

It was badly needed, funny how it did not look so when they started 3-4 years ago (in the sourthermost section south of Ancona)


----------



## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> Yes, I was talking about the length...


You should have tried A3 between Cosenza and Villa San Giovanni like in 2008.

3 sectors of 30km+ single-lane traffic with speed limits always 60km/h or sometimes 40km/h.


----------



## keber

Actually, what is the progress of the most difficult section of A3 between Palmi and Villa San Giovanni? it's already 6 or even more years in construction.
(even I made a construction report in 2009)


----------



## Coccodrillo

The _marbles' road_ (strada dei marmi) bypassing Carrara has been opened. It is 5,6 km long (of which 4,5 km in tunnel) and links the quarries with the SS1. It can be used only by trucks (vehicles above 7,5 t) except after 17.20 in the afternoon and on weekends. The road is already visible in OpenStreetMap.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6r0mTzhAX0


----------



## Mauz®

Last weekend I drove a lot through the work-in-progress stretch of A14 (Milano-Fano, Fano-Rimini Sud, Rimini Sud-Fano, Fano-Ancona Nord, Ancona Sud-Milano).

BOOOOOORING! It's impossible to respect the speed limit...


----------



## g.spinoza

*"Corda molle" flops*

A21 racc., better known as "Corda molle", the external tangenziale of Brescia is deemed "a flop" by the environmental association Legambiente.

"Built for 80 thousand vehicles/day, it actually carries only 4400." 

Legambiente also stresses the land use, the costs, and the "crazy tolls":
"Entering A21 at Cremona and exiting at Brescia Centro one pays 2.50€; if you exit at Brescia Sud, 6 km before Brescia Centro, you pay 2.80€"

http://brescia.corriere.it/brescia/notizie/cronaca/12_marzo_14/sp19-2003684878849.shtml


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## Suburbanist

^^ It takes up to 2 years for a new route to consolidate. But it is definitively carrying lower-than-expected traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I doubt if it was actually "built for 80.000". You don't construct 4-lane highways for an expected volume of 80.000 vehicles, that would be pretty congested. 

I read they monitored the month of February. Convenient for them to burn the new road down, because February is the second least-traffic intensive month of the year. Still, 4.400 vehicles is not much, but I think the investment of € 14 million/km would be justified if volumes reach 18.000 -20.000 vpd.

Anyway, I think they're way too early with their conclusion. You don't judge a new road based on the volumes within one month of opening, it's not on maps, people are set in their old routes and virtually no GPS has it. It takes at least 1.5 - 2 years for the new route to be known and mapped, especially because this is an entirely new alignment, and not one you automatically use from one of the other routes nearby.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Not to mention that the road is only half built and its major purpose (drain BreBeMi) is not in place since BreBeMi is in construction.


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## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Not to mention that the road is only half built and its major purpose (drain BreBeMi) is not in place since BreBeMi is in construction.


Some activists don't consider rational motivation before starting attack what they dislike 
Off course now it's empty, but just because is unconnected now. It's just the first part of the future link to Milan.


----------



## brick84

keber said:


> Actually, what is the progress of the most difficult section of A3 between Palmi and Villa San Giovanni? it's already 6 or even more years in construction.
> (even I made a construction report in 2009)


Macrolotto 5 (Palmi-Scilla) .............. *76%* (end in July 2013)

Macrolotto 6 (Scilla-Villa S. Giovanni) ..............*.27% *(end in March 2013)

source: Anas


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Those are bad-asses pieces of highway. One of the most impressive in Italy, as you slowly descend to 0 m.s.l.m.

Too bad the ferry terminal at Villa San Giovani could be worse looking with that claustrophobic railway underpass and totally outdated facilities near the embarkation ramps!


----------



## Eddard Stark

Macrolotto 6 completed in 2013? if we are lucky in 2014, otherwise 2015


----------



## g.spinoza

University "Politecnico di Milano" proposed the construction of a cycle route along the entire length of river Po:
http://www.corriere.it/ambiente/12_maggio_14/pista-ciclabile-vento-fagnani_a37ee270-9d0f-11e1-

It's called "VenTo", from VENezia to TOrino (but also "wind" in Italian), it will be 679 km long, from Venezia Lido to Chioggia (on boat) then to Ferrara, Cremona, Piacenza, Pavia, Milan, Chivasso, Casale Monferrato, Turin. It will cost only 80 million euro because 102 km (15% of the total) is already in place and with adequate safety standards; 284 can be updated just by changing some local laws about the utilization of ***** and levees, 148 can be updated with minimal efforts. Ony 145 would have to be built from scratch.


----------



## g.spinoza

I quote myself from the Italian thread, with some pictures of Quadrilatero project roadworks of SS76 (9th May 2012):


g.spinoza said:


> Galleria Gattuccio:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raddoppio poco prima di Albacina:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> Galleria Albacina:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Galleria Cancelli:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nuova galleria (di cui non so il nome) solo carreggiata nord:


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Wow, lots of interest.

Accordin to Ripoli citizens association, viaduct Rio Piazza on A1 moved 3 cm in 5 months. Gennarino Tozzi, co-chair of Autostrade per l'Italia's network development division, stated that there is nothing to worry about until the displacement reaches "13-14 cm". Meanwhile, he announced strenghtening works, just for precaution.
Ripoli citizens demand a stop to works, and a change of plans: "The tunnel must be dug deeper within the mountain, and at a higher altitude". Geologists say that a massive sudden landslide is extremely unlikely and with constant monitoring it can be safely foreseen".

http://corrieredibologna.corriere.i...o-si-spostato-3-centimetri-201296508088.shtml


----------



## g.spinoza

I feel I'm the only one reading this thread.

Third lane has been opened on the whole A9, direction North, 10 months ahead of schedule:
http://milano.repubblica.it/dettaglio-news/milano-14:19/7892


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice. When will the southbound 3rd lane open?

According to Italian Wikipedia, the connecting A8 will be widened to 2x5 lanes. Is there any construction going on there?


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nice. When will the southbound 3rd lane open?


They're going to open the southbound third lane by next July, 8 months ahead of schedule.



> According to Italian Wikipedia, the connecting A8 will be widened to 2x5 lanes. Is there any construction going on there?


Works there are still on hold: they think works can start in july 2013 and be completed in september 2015


----------



## hofburg

g.spinoza said:


> I feel I'm the only one reading this thread.


don't worry, I check it time to time. 
btw is there any information about the opening date for RA Vilesse-Gorizia?


----------



## italystf

hofburg said:


> don't worry, I check it time to time.
> btw is there any information about the opening date for RA Vilesse-Gorizia?


It should be completed by the spring of 2013.


----------



## g.spinoza

Works on TEM, the External East Tangenziale of Milan, are going to start next June 11th, in the territory of Trucazzano.
http://www.lestradedellinformazione.it/acm-on-line/Home/PrimoPiano/articolo10120.html
Works will last 1130 days, for the completion of the whole 32-km-long autostrada. However, works on the so-called "Arco TEM", a 3-km-long section of the autostrada due to connect BreBeMi with the city of Milan, through superstrade "Rivoltana" and "Cassanese", will have to be completed by next year, when BreBeMi is going to open.


----------



## keber

2 billion for 32 km? Quite a lot. I presume there are a lot of cut&covers.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> 2 billion for 32 km? Quite a lot. I presume there are a lot of cut&covers.


Yes it's quite a lot of money, but there are many other works within the project: conversion and building of other roads, construction of cycling paths and even many works on local railroads and Milan subway system.


----------



## admirer of sir ALEX

g.spinoza said:


> I feel I'm the only one reading this thread.


No, I am with you.........


----------



## brick84

*Giostra and Annunziata Junctions in Messina (Sicily) - future exit to Strait of Messina Bridge*

by _Gualtiero Palermo_



Gualtiero said:


> Un piccolo mio contributo da una prospettiva diversa


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wow that is absolutely amazing...


----------



## hofburg

massive!


----------



## x-type

exit ramps are stunning


----------



## g.spinoza

Fortunately they will serve more than just the Messina bridge... otherwise they're going to be useless for quite some time...


----------



## Gualtiero

Thanks to everyone for the compliments!!!


----------



## brick84

*SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta (Sicily) - work in progress*

nice video


----------



## Suburbanist

Apparently, what had been speculated has been confirmed: the new Frejus Safety Tunnel, under construction already, will be converted to be a road tunnel instead.

That way, each bore will only carry traffic in one direction.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I passed through Frejus last year. I was alone all the way, speed limit is 50 km/h at both ends and 30 km/h (thirty kilometers-per-hour!!) at the center. The second tunnel will allow the limits to be raised, I don't know about capacity, though. It seemed to me that the single bore was already too much.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is no need for increased capacity on that corridor, but two tubes are much safer. A good solution. I do think the tolls are too steep though.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> A good solution. I do think the tolls are too steep though.


35€ for a 1-way passage. Utter madness.


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> 35€ for a 1-way passage. Utter madness.


E 26,10


----------



## italystf

The easternmost section of A4 photographed from the train beween Monfalcone and Trieste:


----------



## keber

Suburbanist said:


> E 26,10


This is just for motorbikes

http://www.sftrf.fr/doc/commerciales/tarifstunnel 2012.pdf

38,90 € or 39,40 € is for normal cars, depends which direction you're traveling (this peculiarity is new to me). Anyway I don't expect traffic to increase with already high tolls raising every year. For cars there is pretty nice alternative over Claviere/Montgenevre pass, Briancon and over D1091 to Grenoble.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> The easternmost section of A4 photographed from the train beween Monfalcone and Trieste:


The first pic is RA 13. :bowtie:


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> The first pic is RA 13. :bowtie:


200 meters before it's A4. This is the exit of Sistiana, that is located between the end of A4 and the beginning of RA13.

The 2nd pic is Monfalcone est exit, just after Lisert toll booth on A4.

I took those pics coming from TS toward Monfalcone.


----------



## hofburg

italystf said:


> The easternmost section of A4 photographed from the train beween Monfalcone and Trieste:


on the 2nd photo there's one of the karst-springs of the river Timavo/Timav, which waters come from rivers Reka, Vipava and Soca/Isonzo.

btw, why is A4 ending in Sistiana and not in Trieste?


----------



## hofburg

the bridges italystf took photos from 


Kras 112 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Kras 144 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

keber said:


> 38,90 € or 39,40 € is for normal cars, depends which direction you're traveling (this peculiarity is new to me).


This is due to VAT differences between Italy and France.


----------



## Verso

hofburg said:


> on the 2nd photo there's one of the karst-springs of the river Timavo/Timav, which waters come from rivers Reka, Vipava and Soca/Isonzo.


One of the world's shortest rivers - 2 km.



hofburg said:


> btw, why is A4 ending in Sistiana and not in Trieste?


Because that's the official exit for the centre of Trieste.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> One of the world's shortest rivers - 2 km.


It's much longer (89km according to Wiki), but it runs mostly underground, below 3 countries (I, SLO and HR).



Verso said:


> Because that's the official exit for the centre of Trieste.


The A4 till Sistiana was completed around 1970 already as motorway, while the RA13 was built more recently (late 80s, I think) upgrading a 2 lane road built by Anglo-Americans in the early 50s (originally SS202, number now assigned to the southern urban expressway).


----------



## hofburg

italystf said:


> It's much longer (89km according to Wiki), but it runs mostly underground, below 3 countries (I, SLO and HR).
> 
> 
> The A4 till Sistiana was completed around 1970 already as motorway, while the RA13 was built more recently (late 80s, I think) upgrading a 2 lane road built by Anglo-Americans in the early 50s (originally SS202, number now assigned to the southern urban expressway).


I don't think it's like river in underground, it just collects waters from different areas, so 89km its more like madeup number IMO.

SS202 - weirdly on Google maps is designated to the motorway RA13 from Sistiana, and then it changes to old road descending to Trieste when the gap between RA13 and Nuova sopraelevata still existed, and then it jumps to the latter again. I think they should rearrange that. 

and take a look at that: named as SS202, but marked as SP35
https://maps.google.si/maps?q=SS202...2997&sspn=3.367841,8.453979&hq=SS202&t=m&z=14

why didn't angloamericans build any roads in SLO. :|


----------



## RipleyLV

hofburg said:


> the bridges italystf took photos from
> 
> 
> Kras 112 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Ah, how I miss these views.


----------



## italystf

hofburg said:


> I don't think it's like river in underground, it just collects waters from different areas, so 89km its more like madeup number IMO.
> 
> SS202 - weirdly on Google maps is designated to the motorway RA13 from Sistiana, and then it changes to old road descending to Trieste when the gap between RA13 and Nuova sopraelevata still existed, and then it jumps to the latter again. I think they should rearrange that.
> 
> and take a look at that: named as SS202, but marked as SP35
> https://maps.google.si/maps?q=SS202...2997&sspn=3.367841,8.453979&hq=SS202&t=m&z=14
> 
> why didn't angloamericans build any roads in SLO. :|


Google it's wrong in this case. Only the sopraelevata from Cattinara to the harbour is SS202.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Verso said:


> One of the world's shortest rivers - 2 km.


This is said to be shorter: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliero_(fiume) (0,3 km)


----------



## darko06

italystf said:


> ... a 2 lane road built by Anglo-Americans in the early 50s (originally SS202, number now assigned to the southern urban expressway).


I remember that these 2 lanes were very wide (as wide as the Reichsautobahn). I suppose that this former road started at the former border of Italy and the Free Territory of Trieste and bypassed the urban territory of Trieste. Anglo-American have built this road not in the fifties, but probably after the WW2 ended. The main reason was to manipulate tanks from Italy through Allied part of FToT (zone A) to the border to Yugoslav part of FToT (zone B), in case of possible marshall Tito's reconquest of Trieste (remember that Tito partisans occupied Trieste in 1945 for almost a month). Of course that after Tito in 1950 converted to the Western Allies this wide road became obsolete, but the fact that Italy started to replace it with the motorway after Osimo treaty was signed in 1975 speaks for itself.


----------



## MrAkumana

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I passed through Frejus last year. I was alone all the way, speed limit is 50 km/h at both ends and 30 km/h (thirty kilometers-per-hour!!) at the center. The second tunnel will allow the limits to be raised, I don't know about capacity, though. It seemed to me that the single bore was already too much.


I went through the Frejus tunnel on a weekday on last April, the speed limit at that time was 70 km/h all the way but the journey felt unending anyway... moreover the air inside the tunnel was disgusting, there were several trucks but not many cars. At the entrance there was an italian police stopping you and asking to participate on a looong a survey about why you decided to use the tunnel and how much did you spent in Italy. At the exit (direction France) there were 5 french policemen to stop and fine every car that surpassed the speed limit on the tunnel... (luckly I was expecting something like that and was very carefull with the speed)

To sum it up: really too much hassle when you are paying almost 40 euros as toll, I will use the SS24 and N94 next time...


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> E 26,10


Believe me, I know how much I payed.


Maniva Pass (1664m) today (taken by me):









The pass is on the right, road goes down crossing the centre of the image and down left. The road going left and up from Maniva pass leads to Crocedominii pass (1892m), but it was closed. 

Picture taken from the road leading to Baremone pass (1450m). Lots of passes in province of Brescia!


----------



## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> This is said to be shorter: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliero_(fiume) (0,3 km)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortest_river


----------



## keber

MrAkumana said:


> To sum it up: really too much hassle when you are paying almost 40 euros as toll, I will use the SS24 and N94 next time...


More like 55 € if you go to at least Grenoble. For just half an hour of difference in 170 km.


----------



## Road_UK

That's right. Also, driving in the Netherlands and driving in Italy are two worlds apart, and as such not comparable...


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is a good chance there was barely any measurable impact on traffic safety and emission of noise and pollutants.


I'm not so sure about this. On an average car, fuel consumption skyrockets from 130 to 160 km/h... on my car it more than doubles.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Sure, but that doesn't mean air quality degrades in any significant way. The common misconception is that higher or lower speed directly results in local air quality variations. Trials have shown the impact is rather small.


----------



## Road_UK

Also, apparently in Austria with this IG-L 100 km/h limit instead of 130, which on the A12 is only applied when there is a higher smog risk (almost all the time) it does make a hell of a lot of difference. That is what the local authorities say, I don't know if it's true. 
I can somehow see there point. The Inn valley is pretty densely populated, with bigger towns and cities, and a motorway that happens to be the busiest route between Italy and Germany...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That only means the background concentrations are already near the limits. A motorway generally adds only a few µg/m³ while the limit is 50 µg/m³. 100 or 130 km/h is basically decimal work.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Sure, but that doesn't mean air quality degrades in any significant way. The common misconception is that higher or lower speed directly results in local air quality variations. Trials have shown the impact is rather small.


It's not that I don't trust you, but this seems difficult to accept. To my sense, if emissions double and speed doesn't, pollutants should accumulate faster in a given spot.
Do you have any actual studies to link?


----------



## Road_UK

Are emissions more likely in Germany, because of higher speeds? The EU say it is, Germany argues that it hardly makes a difference...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is a difference between emissions and concentrations. Air quality is measured by the concentration of pollutants in µg/m³. Doubling emissions does not mean pollutants also double, because the concentration of pollutants is not created entirely by motorway emissions, something most politicians don't understand. Background concentrations (i.e. the concentration without the motorway) are generally significant in polluted areas like northern Italy or the Benelux.

For instance, they did a trial with 120 km/h as opposed to the regular 100 km/h on A1 in the Netherlands. The NOx concentration increased by 0,75 µg/m³ and PM10 by 0,1 µg/m³. Noise levels increased by 0,3 dB.

For instance, this could be the air quality composition in a moderately - but below the limit - polluted area, typically found in densely populated, but rural areas such as eastern Netherlands.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> For instance, they did a trial with 120 km/h as opposed to the regular 100 km/h on A1 in the Netherlands. The NOx concentration increased by 0,75 µg/m³ and PM10 by 0,1 µg/m³. Noise levels increased by 0,3 dB.


Understood. Even though "noise levels increased by .3 dB" means little. As the decibel scale is not linear but logarithmic, going from 10 to 10.3 or from 100 to 100.3 is a whole world apart.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An increase of 1.5 - 2.0 dB is generally the threshold of what people can observe. 

Noise levels depend on various factors, such as the driving speed, pavement type, amount of vehicles and the truck share. And the distance to the source of course.


----------



## g.spinoza

*Twelve offences in 7 minutes.
Scooter driver loses 180 driver license points*

A 21-y-o, who recently passed his driving test, was driving his scooter on a cycleway and fled when police officers spotted him. Officers went in pursue and when they caught him, they gave him 3 tickets for running red lights, 2 for driving wrong-way, 3 for not yielding, 2 for running a stop sign, 1 for excessive speed and, of course, 1 for driving on a cycleway. In total, 1000 euro and 180 points (an Italian license carries 20 points tops). His scooter was impounded and his license suspended.

http://milano.repubblica.it/cronaca...o_scooterista_180_punti-37153728/?ref=HREC2-1


----------



## Road_UK

Why? He was only being a true Italian patriot! :clown:


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Why? He was only being a true Italian patriot! :clown:


His justification was: "I was bored". :bash:

And by the way: if he was a true Italian patriot he would have escaped the cops...


----------



## Road_UK

:lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

Completion of A31 "Valdastico" South is seriously behind the schedule.

First section (Vicenza-Longare) was due to open this month but it has been pushed after the summer. The entire motorway will open in 2014 instead of 2013. 

Looks like the main problem here is an official inquiry for possible mafia-related crimes in assigning subcontracts.

http://www.vicenzapiu.com/leggi/tiramolla-valdastico-sud


----------



## brick84

*Modernized section of the Syracuse-Gela near the intersection of Avola.*
June 15, 2012













brick84 said:


> *A18 Siracusa-Gela lavori presso Avola - 15 giugno 2012 *


----------



## g.spinoza

*A BreBeMi museum*

Authorities are considering the idea of putting together all archaeological findings dug during BreBeMi works (more than 100 sites within 60 km of autostrada, ranging from prehistory to Middle Ages), in a so-called BreBeMi museum. Bronze age artifacts found at Antegnate; Roman ovens at Cassano d'Adda; a medieval necropolis at Fara Olivana; all of them may found a new home in a dedicated musem, possibly within one of the Autogrills in the new BreBeMi.

http://www.ilgiorno.it/bergamo/cronaca/2012/06/19/731225-reperti_antichi_dagli_scavi.shtml


----------



## brick84

*SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta, two miles to the open two-way traffic*










Opens today a new section of the SS 640. Another three kilometers of the new state "- Agrigento Caltanissetta", from km 15 +920 to 18 +870, from the junction of Castrofilippo shopping center "Le Vigne" in the territory of Racalmuto. Empedocles delivered as promised the land to more miles in both directions of travel of the state whose work continued for over three years. Another important appointment in mid-July with the opening of a further 4 km, in the section between the junction and junction Scintilia Walnut.











source: http://cmcgruppo.com/empedocle/

:cheers:


----------



## italystf

brick84 said:


> SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta, two miles to the open two-way traffic


When did the Kingdom of Two Sicilies switch to the imperial units? :lol:

Anyway please don't post anything translated into English with Google. Nobody would understand anything.


----------



## Road_UK

brick84 said:


> SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta, two miles to the open two-way traffic
> 
> Opens today a new section of the SS 640. Another three kilometers of the new state "- Agrigento Caltanissetta", from km 15 +920 to 18 +870, from the junction of Castrofilippo shopping center "Le Vigne" in the territory of Racalmuto. Empedocles delivered as promised the land to more miles in both directions of travel of the state whose work continued for over three years. Another important appointment in mid-July with the opening of a further 4 km, in the section between the junction and junction Scintilia Walnut.
> 
> source: http://cmcgruppo.com/empedocle/
> 
> :cheers:


And people in the land of Walnut where filled with joy...


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> And people in the land of Walnut where filled with joy...


LOL, now you understand why we are mocked abroad? :lol:


----------



## brick84

italystf said:


> When did the Kingdom of Two Sicilies switch to the imperial units? :lol:
> 
> Anyway please don't post anything translated into English with Google. Nobody would understand anything.


Sorry, but is to make faster...

You understand the rest?
this is important.


----------



## Mauz®

Sì, ma ci fai fare una figura di merda come italiani! E visto che già gli stereotipi su di noi si sprecano, sarebbe il caso di impegnarsi un minimo (non si richiede la perfezione) o evitare proprio, non credi? D'altra parte nessuno ti obbliga a postare nei thread internazionali. 

Non c'è niente di peggio dell'inglese maccheronico e delle traduzioni letterali o di Google.


----------



## Road_UK

^^

English only on here...


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> ^^
> 
> English only on here...


He said that Brick 84 gave a bad reputation to Italians and make stereothypes stronger. Nothing is worse than a Google translation of a macaronic English. No one is forced to post on the international forum.


----------



## Road_UK

No, no, no..
He said:

Yes, but we do make a figure of shit like Italian! And since we already stereotypes are wasted on us, we should commit to a minimum (does not require perfection) or avoid their own, do not you think? On the other hand, nobody forces you to post in threads international.

There's nothing worse than literal translations of English and pidgin or Google.

(translated by Google)


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ "Figure of shit" should be welcomed into English language with open arms


----------



## Road_UK

Yes, I actually like that one...
Is figura di merda a common expression in Italy?


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ "Figure of shit" should be welcomed into English language with open arms


LOL, I must forward the posts above to some of my friends who study at the faculty of interpreters and translators. They would laugh for sure.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Yes, I actually like that one...
> Is figura di merda a common expression in Italy?


Yes, very common. Whenever you're embarrassed in front of an audience for doing or saying something stupid or ridiculous, you did a figura di merda :lol:


----------



## Road_UK

By the way, English translations from French on Google are near perfect...


----------



## italystf

double post


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> By the way, English translations from French on Google are near perfect...


Translations into English are also good. But I found out that translations into Italian always pass through English (for instance German->Italian is done by translating German->English and then English-Italian)


----------



## Road_UK

Ha!
Did you hear about the Italian that went to Malta?


----------



## italystf

There is also this one::lol:


----------



## Mauz®

Road_UK said:


> ^^
> 
> English only on here...


Sorry! I wrote in Italian just to make brick84 understand more clearly.
I don't know how good does he speak English, but the fact he's constantly using Google Translate suggests me he finds it hard, so I spoke to him in Italian. 


Mauz® said:


> [...]
> ci fai fare una figura di merda
> [...]


Traslation: "you make an ass of ourselves"

Literally "figura di merda" it's "shitty figure", or "shitty impression".


It's a very common expression in Italy. To say it in a more elegant way, you can use the expression "brutta figura" ("sorry figure", "ugly impression").


----------



## Eddard Stark

"bella figura" is an expression which cannot be literally translated and speaks volumes about the italian culture, a culture where the appearance is much more important than the substance and where what others think of you is more important than what you think of you


----------



## italystf

Eddard Stark said:


> "bella figura" is an expression which cannot be literally translated and speaks volumes about the italian culture, a culture where the appearance is much more important than the substance and where what others think of you is more important than what you think of you


Simpler translation: doesn't mind how many thousands of euros of debts you have, the most imporant things in the life is having a SUV and Armani or Gucci clothes (with the brand in big letters). 
Seriously, there is no English expression to say bella or brutta figura? Is impression the most used word for that?


----------



## cougar1989

There is another good video about Italy in Europe




http://youtu.be/ZAJNFoHuLno


----------



## Eddard Stark

italystf said:


> Simpler translation: doesn't mind how many thousands of euros of debts you have, the most imporant things in the life is having a SUV and Armani or Gucci clothes (with the brand in big letters).
> Seriously, there is no English expression to say bella or brutta figura? Is impression the most used word for that?


no, there is not. nor in any other language I am aware of.

It's a 100% italian concept

Any more-or-less likely translations do not really capture the italian concept


----------



## Road_UK

Love the videos, guys :lol:




Mauz® said:


> Sorry! I wrote in Italian just to make brick84 understand more clearly.
> I don't know how good does he speak English, but the fact he's constantly using Google Translate suggests me he finds it hard, so I spoke to him in Italian.
> 
> Traslation: "you make an ass of ourselves"
> 
> Literally "figura di merda" it's "shitty figure", or "shitty impression".
> 
> 
> It's a very common expression in Italy. To say it in a more elegant way, you can use the expression "brutta figura" ("sorry figure", "ugly impression").


That's cool. The wonderful people from the Land of Walnut are truly blessed with this glorious gift given upon by the State, and they lived happily ever after, and that is what matters.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Eddard Stark said:


> no, there is not. nor in any other language I am aware of.
> 
> It's a 100% italian concept
> 
> Any more-or-less likely translations do not really capture the italian concept


"Keeping up appearances" may be the idea....


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> "Keeping up appearances" may be the idea....


I read once a book written by an Englishman living in Italy... he stressed the differences between the English "good impression" and the Italian "bella figura". English uses "good"; Italian uses "bella", which literally means "good-looking, handsome, beautiful". Moral vs. aesthetical (or aesthetic? never understood the difference)


----------



## Road_UK

I also read in "the xenophobic guide to Italy" that the Italians love the order and calmness in England, while the English in turn are fascinated by the noise and colours in Italy...

I've got a whole collection to these guides...


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Point is, he was right


----------



## F81

g.spinoza said:


> I read once a book written by an Englishman living in Italy... he stressed the differences between the English "good impression" and the Italian "bella figura". English uses "good"; Italian uses "bella", which literally means "good-looking, handsome, beautiful". Moral vs. aesthetical (or aesthetic? never understood the difference)


Not an Englishman at all, it was Italian columnist and Britain-lover Beppe Severgnini.


----------



## g.spinoza

F81 said:


> Not an Englishman at all, it was Italian columnist and Britain-lover Beppe Severgnini.


Tobias Jones, "The dark heart of Italy", 2003, Faber and Faber, London.

I know what I read.


----------



## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> I read once a book written by an Englishman living in Italy... he stressed the differences between the English "good impression" and the Italian "bella figura". English uses "good"; Italian uses "bella", which literally means "good-looking, handsome, beautiful". Moral vs. aesthetical (or aesthetic? never understood the difference)


To make a good impression (the first time you're meeting someone, for example) goes beyond appearances to being a good conversationalist, funny and intelligent... that sort of thing. Nothing to do with morals, I'd say, as long as you're not blatantly awful.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> I also read in "the xenophobic guide to Italy" that the Italians love the order and calmness in England, while the English in turn are fascinated by the noise and colours in Italy...
> 
> I've got a whole collection to these guides...


I'll bet you do!
(Sorry, couldn't resist. I myself picked up 1000 Years of Annoying the French at a used-book sale recently. Haven't read it yet....)


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> To make a good impression (the first time you're meeting someone, for example) goes beyond appearances to being a good conversationalist, funny and intelligent... that sort of thing. Nothing to do with morals, I'd say, as long as you're not blatantly awful.


I think the author meant that Italians tend to privilege the looks rather than deeper values. Something to do with protestant vs catholic education: protestants value hard work and responsiblity, within catholicism you can do whatever you want, as long as you publicly state you're ashamed (even if you're not).


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## italystf

If in Europe someone buy an expensive car or fashionable clothes is because he or she really like them. In Italy it's often because 'other people do that' and dressing in a certain way it's often seen as a moral obligation. Appearing to be thrifty is felt as shameful. Often is easier to criticize someone for his appearances rather than for his actual behavior. How many times we make fun of Germans that are recognizable on the riviera because they wear socks with sandals...


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## F81

g.spinoza said:


> Tobias Jones, "The dark heart of Italy", 2003, Faber and Faber, London.
> 
> I know what I read.


I apologize. :dunno:

But then Jones's theory was faithfully reproduced (plagiarized?) by Mr Severgnini in his 2007 book... hno:


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## g.spinoza

F81 said:


> I apologize. :dunno:
> 
> But then Jones's theory was faithfully reproduced (plagiarized?) by Mr Severgnini in his 2007 book... hno:


Severgnini never gave birth to an original idea in his whole career. One of the most overrated journalists in Italy, the leader of them being Zucconi, of course.


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## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> I think the author meant that Italians tend to privilege the looks rather than deeper values. Something to do with protestant vs catholic education: protestants value hard work and responsiblity, within catholicism you can do whatever you want, as long as you publicly state you're ashamed (even if you're not).


It's true that Protestantism is more 'capitalistically' oriented than Catholicism and give more importance to hard working and personal success.
However Catholicism believes in a divine justice after death (opposite to the Calvinistic ideal of the predestination) so moral behavior should be important.
Off course certain Catholic clergymen did and still are doing nasty things, but that's another story.


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## Road_UK

italystf said:


> If in Europe someone buy an expensive car or fashionable clothes is because he or she really like them. In Italy it's often because 'other people do that' and dressing in a certain way it's often seen as a moral obligation. Appearing to be thrifty is felt as shameful. Often is easier to criticize someone for his appearances rather than for his actual behavior. How many times we make fun of Germans that are recognizable on the riviera because they wear socks with sandals...


Don't tell me about Germans and their fucking sandals! A German threw a sandal at my head at an Austrian hoempapa party once, because I thanked him for dying for our sins...


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## g.spinoza

Did he wear a robe and a long beard too?


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## Road_UK

No, but some people outside Germany and Austria wear them as well, and in Holland and England they call them Jesus sandals.


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## Suburbanist

Last weekend (Sunday to be exact) I drove through two of the major alpine tunnels of Italy. It always hurt to spend almost € 70 in two tunnels in one day.

But it was worth...

In the past, I think you could buy a return ticket to use in the Monte Bianco and Grand San Bernardo tunnels within 7 days, but apparently now it is limited to return through the same tunnel.

I wish they used the same techniques they used on the approach road to the Grand San Bernardo elsewhere in Italy to keep mountain passes opened year-round.


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## Road_UK

You can buy a return ticket and use either Mont Blanc or Frejus.


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## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> You can buy a return ticket and use either Mont Blanc or Frejus.



Yes, but the Great St. Bernard is out of the scheme!

With minor updates on the access roads, the Great St. Bernard could be a much more used route.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ exactly what the Swiss want


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## WalkTheWorld

italystf said:


> Simpler translation: doesn't mind how many thousands of euros of debts you have, the most imporant things in the life is having a SUV and Armani or Gucci clothes (with the brand in big letters).
> Seriously, there is no English expression to say bella or brutta figura? Is impression the most used word for that?


Flash? To cut the dash?


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Penn's Woods said:


> I'll bet you do!
> (Sorry, couldn't resist. I myself picked up 1000 Years of Annoying the French at a used-book sale recently. Haven't read it yet....)


Damn! I bought in in Paris (just one more way to annoy them) and lost it somewhere in West Brom.


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## WalkTheWorld

italystf said:


> It's true that Protestantism is more 'capitalistically' oriented than Catholicism and give more importance to hard working and personal success.
> However Catholicism believes in a divine justice after death (opposite to the Calvinistic ideal of the predestination) so moral behavior should be important.
> Off course certain Catholic clergymen did and still are doing nasty things, but that's another story.


Well you have confession and you are clean and forgiven


----------



## g.spinoza

WalkTheWorld said:


> Flash? To cut the dash?


Flash is quite different, its Italian equivalent could be "ostentare". You "flash" when you're rich, or beautiful, and do whatever to show. 

"Fare una bella figura" not necessarily involves luxury or showing things. Sometimes you can also be humble and modest and still make a "bella figura".

I must admit I never heard "cut the dash"...


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ exactly what the Swiss want


On the Swiss side I've driven the access road from Martigny 3 times during my short vacation in Orsières. It's a decent 1+1 or 1+2 road, except for the crossing of one town and couple too tight roundabouts. Other villages are mostly bypassed.

The problem is mainly on the Italian side with some very tight curves, though tunnels bypassing couple of them + new road bypass of two villages/cottages are under construction.

============================

On a side note, I was quite sad to realize they have extended the 100km/h zone on A5 further down the valley... It was a breeze to drive 130km/h on those tunnels.


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## Penn's Woods

I know "cut *a* dash" (not "*the* dash")

But it's old-fashioned. I had to think about it for a second.

Only dictionary definitions I can find in 15 seconds on Google go back to 1848 and 1913.


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## Road_UK

WalkTheWorld said:


> Damn! I bought in in Paris (just one more way to annoy them) and lost it somewhere in West Brom.


I had a book on me once about an Englishman living in France for one year. It's called 'one year in the merde' French customs who checked on me were particularly interested in that book...


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## brick84

Mauz® said:


> Sì, ma ci fai fare una figura di merda come italiani! E visto che già gli stereotipi su di noi si sprecano, sarebbe il caso di impegnarsi un minimo (non si richiede la perfezione) o evitare proprio, non credi? D'altra parte nessuno ti obbliga a postare nei thread internazionali.
> 
> Non c'è niente di peggio dell'inglese maccheronico e delle traduzioni letterali o di Google.


"Ok"


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## Mauz®

brick84 said:


> "Ok"


Ecco, lo vedi che ci vuole poco a rispondere in inglese? 

Translation: "_as you can see, it's not so hard to speak English!"_


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## italystf

Mauz® said:


> Ecco, lo vedi che ci vuole poco a rispondere in inglese?
> 
> Translation: "as you can see, it's not so hard to speak English!"


Look, you see that it's wanted few time at to answer in english? :lol:


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## Mauz®

:lol:


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## WalkTheWorld

Road_UK said:


> I had a book on me once about an Englishman living in France for one year. It's called 'one year in the merde' French customs who checked on me were particularly interested in that book...


Happyness is made of small details.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Lainate - Como*

Some photos of the recently widened A9.























































photos by Jeroen.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Southbound direction isn't complete yet, but I guess it's a matter of months.


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


>


So in the leftmost lane you must drive between 90-100 km/h?


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## g.spinoza

The "100" sign is just temporary, put there only for the duration of the works. That said, I have seen such "100" signs on A14 south of Ancona, more than a year after the enlargement works were completed... hno:


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## Suburbanist

My dream would be to have 2x3 on A14 extended all the way to San Salvo.


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## g.spinoza

Not gonna happen, at least in this century...


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## Road_UK

In the next century we will be flying, not driving.


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## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> Was he Italian?
> 
> 
> Ajacco's and Corsica's culture, language and history are Italian. In Italian the "j" doesn't exist, but in many dialect it does and it's pronounced like "i" (ee).
> 
> 
> 
> I always pronounced it French-style
> I hate the Spanish "j", it sounds like phlegm.


she. and no, she was not Italian, just miseducated 

about Jonquera - i guess you get alergy when you hear hebrew ך (yep, that's the coughing sound on the end of many hebrew words  )


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## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> she. and no, she was not Italian, just miseducated
> 
> about Jonquera - i guess you get alergy when you hear hebrew ך (yep, that's the coughing sound on the end of many hebrew words  )


Fortunately I don't hear a lot of Hebrew spoken


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## g.spinoza

Last Friday on SS16 in Barletta, Apulia, a robbery against a security van has been carried out. A "military-style commando" hijacked three trailer trucks and positioned them in order to block accesses to the grade-separated road, then attacked the van with kalashnikovs and stuff.
http://bari.repubblica.it/cronaca/2...lla_statle_16-38239445/index.html?ref=HREC1-2

Yesterday something very similar happened on the A14 between Acquaviva delle Fonti and Gioia del Colle, 100 km south of the previous attack, again in Apulia region. A trailer truck has been put perpendicular to the motorway and set on fire to block the security van on the road, while attackers used kalashnikovs again targeting the van's tyres.
http://bari.repubblica.it/cronaca/2...furgone_portavalori_a14-38371919/?ref=HREC1-2

In both cases attackers fled with part of the vans' loads.

A Far West showdown is going on in Apulia


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## italystf

I think that security vans should be camouflaged, maybe with a fake advertisement of something else on them. Too many times you hear of such criminal attacks.
They should also use different vehicles for different trips and take weird detours avoiding the most obvious route from A to B.


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## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> I think that security vans should be camouflaged, maybe with a fake advertisement of something else on them. Too many times you hear of such criminal attacks.
> They should also use different vehicles for different trips and take weird detours avoiding the most obvious route from A to B.


They knew with too many details when, where, how the van was going to go. I say inside job.


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## x-type




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## van_allen78

Unbelievable....It seems that italy looks like Wild West...I m glad that i m not living in Italy...honestly...hno:


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## Mauz®

italystf said:


> I think that security vans should be camouflaged, maybe with a fake advertisement of something else on them. Too many times you hear of such criminal attacks.
> They should also use different vehicles for different trips and take weird detours avoiding the most obvious route from A to B.


I'm pretty sure that a "_military-style commando"_ capable of hijacking three trailer-trucks (to block a road) and using kalashinkovs and further similar stuff would perfectly know which van to attack even if you make it look a laundry-van or a pizza-delivery van. And even if you constantly use a different vehicle.


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## Mauz®

van_allen78 said:


> Unbelievable....It seems that italy looks like Wild West...I m glad that i m not living in Italy...honestly...hno:


Come on... Don't write bullshits!


http://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j...r6TaDQ&usg=AFQjCNFrr9DyDVD5ZWuQrubPtwtg-1IRLA


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## italystf

van_allen78 said:


> Unbelievable....It seems that italy looks like Wild West...I m glad that i m not living in Italy...honestly...hno:


Fortunately it's not routine here. Every country had its criminal cases.


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## Satyricon84

van_allen78 said:


> Unbelievable....It seems that italy looks like Wild West...I m glad that i m not living in Italy...honestly...hno:


Well yes... since they opened the Eastern frontiers something changed concerning security :troll:


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## Suburbanist

These robberies happen everywhere, though infrequently. 

When they happen, they make big news.

The potential pay-off of robbing such vehicles is much higher than robbing a bank nowadays.


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## g.spinoza

van_allen78 said:


> Unbelievable....It seems that italy looks like Wild West...I m glad that i m not living in Italy...honestly...hno:


Yeah, you live in a very safe country :lol:

You shouldn't be so scared... unless you drive a security van :cheers:


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## brick84

*autostrada Catania-Siracusa 
*

by _Euplio_



Euplio said:


> E aggiungo un po' di foto! (datate, ma sono dei primi tempi in cui era stata aperta! ; a proposito di date, quelle in cui non è impressa sono tutte del 16-05-2010)
> 
> Sono tutte di gallerie. Le ho rimpicciolite per poterle pubblicare, ma in alta definizione sono leggibili tutti i cartelli di denominazione. Posso provare a ritagliare il particolare del cartello, se volete.
> 
> San Demetrio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imbocco e sovrappasso su contrada Masseria San Demetrio provenendo da Siracusa. Si tratta della galleria più lunga, trafora il colle San Demetrio-Primosole, dove si trovano il Bivio Iazzotto, l'Isola ecologica, le Grotte Primosole e tante signorine "in cerca di lavoro".
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Idem.
> 
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> Imbocco.
> 
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> Con flash.
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> 
> Senza flash.
> 
> Filippella
> 
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> 
> Mi scuso per la pessima qualità di questa e della seguente immagine.
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Agnone I, Agnone II, Agnone III
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Dall'interno della AI, guardando la AII, prima che perdessero l'illuminazione (e quando funzionavano tutte le luci! )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agnone III.
> 
> Serena
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> Cozzo Battaglia
> 
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> Maganuco


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## Verso

^^ Nice landscape. How many tunnels are there?


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## g.spinoza

^^ I think in the Catania-Syracuse section there are 10 or 11 tunnels, the longest being "San Demetrio" at almost 3000 m.


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## GENIUS LOCI

x-type said:


>


:?


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## Suburbanist

GENIUS LOCI said:


> :?


It reminds me of other polemic music video (but this one in US)






end of the off-topic


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## Verso

GENIUS LOCI said:


> :?


Robbery of a security van in Italy and in the video.


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## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria: 15.6 kilometers of new highway ready*

http://www.stradeanas.it/index.php?/news/dettaglio/id/2731


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## ChrisZwolle

Great, here are some aerial photos of the works.


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## Luki_SL

^^The old A3 which is parallel to new motorway looks so small


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## italystf

*A27 Ponte delle Alpi - Vittorio Veneto sud (southbound)

*Exit Belluno



























Le Cave tunnel (3,8km)









Viaduct above Santa Croce lake (the viaduct in the background is for the northbound direction)



























Exit Vittorio Veneto nord
Until 1995 it was the northernmost end of the A27









Short step 3x2 section towards Conegliano


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## Verso

^^ Nice. Is A27 comparable to A23 in beauty?


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## hofburg

wouldn't say so.  but it might be when extended.


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## italystf

SR203 Sedico - Cencenighe Agordino (province of Belluno, region Veneto)






















































































































Protection against falling rocks


















The road goes through Agordo center









U/C grade - separated junction near Agordo









Pope John Paul I, who standed for just a month before John Paul II in 1978, was born in the village of Canale d'Agordo


















Listolade tunnal (1604m) opened in 2007 replacing a dangerous section of road.









Castei tunnel (1890m)


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## italystf

Verso said:


> ^^ Nice. Is A27 comparable to A23 in beauty?


I think there are more nice views on the A23, since it runs along Fella river.
They look very similar from below (horrible concrete pillars that are an eyesore in the mountain landscape).


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## hofburg

where the 2x3 ends?


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## italystf

hofburg said:


> where the 2x3 ends?


It's 2x3 between the junction with A4 in Mestre and the junction with A28 in Conegliano. There is also a short 2x3 section between Vittorio Veneto Sud and Vittorio Veneto Nord.


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## Jeroen669

This is a car you'll rarely see in Italy. In fact, I can't even remember seeing it outside the UK... I love it, though.


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## Road_UK

I see London cabbies stocking up on booze in Calais from time to time. Also seen them in Holland and Germany, usually run by some marketing agency. In fact, the longest registered taxi ride is from London to Capetown. Also two years ago a couple hailed a cab from New York City to Los Angeles. There is a blog of that on the net somewhere, Google for it...


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## Verso

There's a taxi company in Ljubljana with that car.


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## Eddard Stark

Verso said:


> ^^ Nice. Is A27 comparable to A23 in beauty?


A24 Rome-Torano + A25 Torano-Pescara are the best in Italy and among the best in Europe


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## Coccodrillo

Tolls for the Fréjus and Mont Blanc motorways will increase by 20%: http://torino.repubblica.it/cronaca...i_trafori_alpini_pedaggi_su_del_20_-37966109/


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## ChrisZwolle

Ridiculous. The tolls are already FAR too high as they are today.


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## Road_UK

Yes, but having said that... Running costs are unbelievably high. There is the maintenance, fire crews, convoy-pilots, and all the staff, both Italian and French that need to be paid.


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## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*

works on viaduct Sfalassà by_ Felix1986_




felix1986 said:


> adesso un po di fotografie mozzafiato
> vista dello sfalassa da S.Elia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vista da SS18
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vista da Strada per Solano
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vista dei viadotti di accesso





felix1986 said:


> Vista da sotto (badate bene al fondo del viadotto ci sono delle piastre che sembrano testimoniare l'inserimento della corsia di emergenza)
> 
> 
> 
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> Pile del viadotto
> 
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> 
> 
> il famoso fiume
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vista dal fiume


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## ChrisZwolle

Are they replacing the entire viaduct? It looks to me they've built some new bridge piers, perhaps also replaced the bridge decks? That basically means an entirely new viaduct.


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## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> Tolls for the Fréjus and Mont Blanc motorways will increase by 20%: http://torino.repubblica.it/cronaca...i_trafori_alpini_pedaggi_su_del_20_-37966109/


Will Italian and French salaries increase by 20% as well?


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## Satyricon84

unemployment will increase by 20%, salaries never.....


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## Coccodrillo

Road_UK said:


> Yes, but having said that... Running costs are unbelievably high. There is the maintenance, fire crews, convoy-pilots, and all the staff, both Italian and French that need to be paid.


They are even building a second Fréjus tube, although single lane.

I fear that the Simplon road will become even more attractive...another reason not to like this toll increase!


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## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> Are they replacing the entire viaduct? It looks to me they've built some new bridge piers, perhaps also replaced the bridge decks? That basically means an entirely new viaduct.


As I remember from previous years, main deck and columns will remain although they will be refurbished. Smaller columns will be built new because new motorway leads in in different directions after viaduct.


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## keber

Road_UK said:


> Yes, but having said that... Running costs are unbelievably high. There is the maintenance, fire crews, convoy-pilots, and all the staff, both Italian and French that need to be paid.


Let see some numbers for 2011:
http://www.aiscat.it/pubblicazioni/downloads/ trim3-4_2011.pdf
(page 15)
_year
AADT total (truck traffic)_
2010 2011 
Mont Blanc 4945 (1609) 5113 (1704)
Frejus 4507 (2058) 4494 (2064)

Let say that there is an average about 30 € per light vehicle and 250 € for heavy vehicle (probably most take cheaper return ticket) then tunnels take everyday 100k € + 420k € = 520k € (Mont Blanc) / 75k € + 515k € = 590k €.

Deduce VAT and tunnels get annual about:
:2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents:
*150 million € - Mont Blanc tunnel
:2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents:
190 million € - Frejus tunnel* 
:2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents:

Those are not real numbers but I think they are not far away. Now tell me, that both companies who run those tunnels, which repaid all construction debts years if not decades ago are so financially desperate that they need to increase tolls for 20 %.

And cost for maintenance is not small, but I doubt that they reach even 100 million per tunnel let alone more.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ From that article you can read that:

(a) there is a protocol to increase tunnel tolls by 3,5%/ to help finance the new Lyon - Torino high-speed rail and improvements in the existing line 

(b) the French are imposing an eco-tax of €0,12/km on trucks on Alipne areas, but the Italians refuse to implement such tax on their highways


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## ChrisZwolle

LOL, an "eco tax". You can rather read that as government greed. Call it "green" or "eco" and you can justify just about any type of taxation. 

Anyway, it's not going to change much, as stated by Keber, transit truck volumes are minimal through the French Alps.


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## Road_UK

Like I said before: we use Mont Blanc or Frejus to avoid Switzerland. At times we take Brenner because it is cheaper but longer, but empty we always go back through Swiss. But when I am coming from England, I use Mont Blanc most of the time, especially if I am not going any further then Turin or Milan. I actually only use Brenner when I'm going home.


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## brick84

ChrisZwolle said:


> Are they replacing the entire viaduct? It looks to me they've built some new bridge piers, perhaps also replaced the bridge decks? *That basically means an entirely new viaduct*.


^^



felix1986 said:


> Favazzina


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Mindboggling. We haven't been running such a project since the 50's. Ok the HSR is a larger investment, but nowhere that impressive.


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## Suburbanist

WalkTheWorld said:


> Mindboggling. We haven't been running such a project since the 50's. Ok the HSR is a larger investment, but nowhere that impressive.


I always say the reconstruction of A3 is one the most underrated road projects in Western Europe. Most people think they are merely widening, when in reality they are rebuilding vast sectors and excavating dozens of tunnels.


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## -Pino-

It's far off een for many Italians, and it is of course nice to have a good laugh at people perceived as mafia that they take 15 years to do some large roadworks. But the scale of the projects is unknown to many. 350 km through difficult terrain, almost complete reconstruction and in the meantime the old road must stay open. It's a scale not comparable with any other European road project, and that basis ought not be overshadowed by the inevitable downsides of inefficiencies that may or may not have been driven by corruption and other criminal activity.


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## Verso

So how much does this A3 reconstruction cost?


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## italystf

Verso said:


> So how much does this A3 reconstruction cost?


9,86 billions of euros between 2002 and 2013. Initially it was estimated at 5,5 billions.
75,5km of A3 are still in planning stages.
The new allignment will be 10km shorter than the original one.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Are they replacing the entire viaduct? It looks to me they've built some new bridge piers, perhaps also replaced the bridge decks? That basically means an entirely new viaduct.


Sfalassà is considered an historic landmark and will not be replaced, only enlarged.


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## hofburg

DSC09915 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

https://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=4...35879,0.055189&mra=mift&mrsp=0&sz=14&t=m&z=14



DSC09926 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

https://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=4...17921,0.027595&mra=mift&mrsp=0&sz=15&t=m&z=15



DSC09930 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

https://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=4...17918,0.027595&mra=mift&mrsp=0&sz=15&t=m&z=15


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## Luki_SL

^^The A23 is really awesome


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## Verso

Which motorway is considered more beautiful, A23 or A22?


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## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Which motorway is considered more beautiful, A23 or A22?


A22 is nice, especially between Chiusa/Klausen and Vipiteno/Sterzing, but A23 is nicer overall. The road itself is smoother.


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## x-type

but still A10 is the most impressive imo due to configuration of terrain. i know about A23 area, but A10 passes really through impossible terrain


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## Suburbanist

Of the Italian _autostrade_ going through the Alps A10 is the most impressive because of the combination of ocean + high mountains + road that crosses through mountains instead of not following a valley.

A5 north of Aosta could claim that position, but is 90% tunneled...


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## g.spinoza

Yes but A10 is _bad_. I mean, sometimes it's more like a superstrada than an autostrada. A23 is state of the art, instead.


----------



## hofburg

A23 has far less traffic than A22. therefore it's more pleasant. also, it's not brown.


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## Road_UK

Brown?

Anyway, I both enjoy A10 and A22. A10 because I love the bends, the tunnels, bridges and views over Genoa and the sea, and the A22 because of the scenery, full HGV and caravan overtaking ban, so I can get a move on. And going northbound I'm nearly home. Exactly 100 km from Brenner border. This is what I hate about that Turin-Piacenza road, even though its fairly quiet, you are always stuck behind overtaking lorries.


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## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Brown?


He means brown crashbarriers. A22 has rusty crashbarriers all the way from Modena to the Austrian border, the only motorway in Italy with this feature.


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## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> He means brown crashbarriers. A22 has rusty crashbarriers all the way from Modena to the Austrian border, the only motorway in Italy with this feature.


They are not rusty. They are state-of-the-art, made with a variety of steel that gets that color when exposed, but not because of oxidation or lack of maintenance.


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## Road_UK

Actually, they have nearly all been replaced in the last few months, and while they were at it, they carried installing them well into Austria...


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## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Actually, they have nearly all been replaced in the last few months, and while they were at it, they carried installing them well into Austria...


Two weeks ago I drove between Egna and Bolzano sud and were still brown. Off course I know they're brown on purpose and not because they're old. Such crashbarriers are also used in many national roads in Trentino and Alto Adige.


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## Road_UK

What is Egna again? Neumarkt?


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## WalkTheWorld

Road_UK said:


> What is Egna again? Neumarkt?


Yep.


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## Coccodrillo

In my opinion for Südtirol-Alto Adige place names both names should be used in an English phrase, not only the Italian one, as often they are very different (and often the Italian one is recently invented). Or just follow the en.wiki rule: Innichen, but Bolzano.


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## Road_UK

I agree. And with a majority of ethnic Tyrolians, Bozen-Bolzano excepted, it would be rude to name it the Italian way only, when placed in a context outside Italy/Tyrol.


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## Suburbanist

^^ I think either name will do fine, as both are official city names like Brennero, Merano, Trento, Bolzano etc. 

It is the same case with Swiss cities, either Visp or Viège, Biel or Bienne, Müster or Disentis will do the job.

Specifically, sud-tyrol is not a German-language area, it is a bi-lingual area like Bruxelles-Brussel and thus EITHER language is fine. Let's not foster anti-Italianism here... It's like the Passo Rombo / Timmelsjöch controversy... useless...


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## Road_UK

Disagree. While the subject remains controversial for both sides, and many locals believe that the area shouldn't be Italian in the first place, it is best to use both names, then everyone will be happy.


----------



## Coccodrillo

In Switzerland if there is a translation of the name in the language of the text, then it's this that is used (so, Geneva in a text written in English, and so on, Genève in a French text, Genf/German and Ginevra/Italian). If the city doesn't have a name in that language, then the local name is used (so, Neuchâtel in French and English texts, but Neuenburg in German ones).

In the case of the bilingual city of Biel-Bienne then often both names are used (with the main language first) - and that could be a way for Bolzano-Bozen.


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## italystf

Road_UK said:


> I agree. And with a majority of ethnic Tyrolians, Bozen-Bolzano excepted, it would be rude to name it the Italian way only, when placed in a context outside Italy/Tyrol.


In English you should always use the local name if no English exonimus exists. Since those places are in Italy the local name is in Italian.


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## Road_UK

Sudtirol is just as Tirol as the Tirol in Austria, and the far majority feel Tirolian, more then anything else, whether you like it or not. And the area is multi lingual. Not just Italian.


----------



## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> Sudtirol is just as Tirol as the Tirol in Austria, and the far majority feel Tirolian, more then anything else, whether you like it or not. And the area is multi lingual. Not just Italian.


It doesn't matter how people feel, but whose national state give them passports, health care, education, an ID


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## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Sudtirol is just as Tirol as the Tirol in Austria, and the far majority feel Tirolian, more then anything else, whether you like it or not. And the area is multi lingual. Not just Italian.


And it's not just German.


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## Road_UK

Never said that.


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## italystf

I never write Pola, Fiume and Capodistria in the international forum even if I use them while speaking Italian because they aren't local names anymore. For the same reason I don't expect Bozen, Meran and Bruneck written here, even if German speaker use them.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI




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## Coccodrillo

italystf said:


> In English you should always use the local name if no English exonimus exists. Since those places are in Italy the local name is in Italian.





italystf said:


> I never write Pola, Fiume and Capodistria in the international forum even if I use them while speaking Italian because they aren't local names anymore. For the same reason I don't expect Bozen, Meran and Bruneck written here, even if German speaker use them.


The local name of villages in the valley where the SS49 runs are like Innichen, Toblach, Bruneck, not San Candido, Dobbiaco or Brunico. They are in Italy, but this doesn't mean they should be called with the Italian exonyms (sure, later these became partially endonyms, but not for most locals). Just like German-speaking Swiss don't use Neuenburg or Bellenz referring to Neuchâtel and Bellinzona when communicating in English, even if most Swiss speak (a) German (dialect) as mother language.


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## keber

x-type said:


> but still A10 is the most impressive imo due to configuration of terrain. i know about A23 area, but A10 passes really through impossible terrain


Both are impresive, but Sicilian motorway triangle Messina - Palermo - Catania is also really magnificent. Motorway quality may not be that good, but otherwise it is still spectacular.


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## x-type

keber said:


> Both are impresive, but Sicilian motorway triangle Messina - Palermo - Catania is also really magnificent. Motorway quality may not be that good, but otherwise it is still spectacular.


i trust it is, but anyway the first class are only A10 and A23 imo.

btw has somebody driven A15? that is one of the rarest mentioned motorways in Italy, isn't it? absolutely mistery to me.


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## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> btw has somebody driven A15? that is one of the rarest mentioned motorways in Italy, isn't it? absolutely mistery to me.


I drove it several times, both directions. Scenery is stunning, the motorway itself is quite good from the Ligurian side until the watershed, but on the other side of the Apennines it is bad: lots of steep descents followed by 60-km/h-limited curves, very dangerous.


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## italystf

Coccodrillo said:


> The local name of villages in the valley where the SS49 runs are like Innichen, Toblach, Bruneck, not San Candido, Dobbiaco or Brunico. They are in Italy, but this doesn't mean they should be called with the Italian exonyms (sure, later these became partially endonyms, but not for most locals). Just like German-speaking Swiss don't use Neuenburg or Bellenz referring to Neuchâtel and Bellinzona when communicating in English, even if most Swiss speak (a) German (dialect) as mother language.


Switzerland is a multi-language country with 3 main linguistic groups at the same level. Italy has a main official language with many minorities.



x-type said:


> btw has somebody driven A15? that is one of the rarest mentioned motorways in Italy, isn't it? absolutely mistery to me.


With my parents when I was 10, don't remember much.


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## Road_UK

italystf said:


> Switzerland is a multi-language country with 3 main linguistic groups at the same level. Italy has a main official language with many minorities.
> 
> With my parents when I was 10, don't remember much.


German in Sudtirol is not a minority language, Italian is. Only Bozen/Bolzano has more Italian speakers: 73%. But most of them is import from the south. Don't forget that Sudtirol is an autonomous region, that has both the interests of Austria and Italy at heart.


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> German in Sudtirol is not a minority language, Italian is. Only Bozen/Bolzano has more Italian speakers: 73%. But most of them is import from the south. Don't forget that Sudtirol is an autonomous region, that has both the interests of Austria and Italy at heart.


Not just Bolzano:
Laives 71,5% Italians
Bronzolo 62% Italians
Salorno 61,85% Italians
Vadena 61,5% Italians
The 2nd Alto Adige city, Merano, it's around fifty-fifty.

Anyway, if you are Dutch and not Italian or Austrian, why you care so much about this thing? Let Italians and Austrians fighting each other...


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## Road_UK

I live in Tirol, and nobody are fighting each other. But where I live, Tirol is Tirol. Even if there is a border in between, because as far as the population of both sides are concerned there are no borders. Regional newspapers on both sides are paying as much attention to what is happening in Innsbruck as well as Bozen/Bolzano.


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## italystf

Road_UK said:


> I live in Tirol, and nobody are fighting each other. But where I live, Tirol is Tirol. Even if there is a border in between, because as far as the population of both sides are concerned there are no borders. Regional newspapers on both sides are paying as much attention to what is happening in Innsbruck as well as Bozen/Bolzano.


I wonder how the two Tirols are so culturally integrated even if divided by the Alpine watershield that didn't allow easy contacts between the two sides in the past centuries. It's not a geographically open border such the one between Lombardy and Canton Ticino, or between BENELUX countries or ex-Yugo countries.


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## Coccodrillo

The Brenner Pass is low and easy to cross, even in past times - and the pass between Toblach-Dobbiaco and Innichen-San Candido (and thus Lienz) is even easier.


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## Road_UK

That's right. And then there are a number of passes that are easy to cross on foot. There is one just down the road from here. Sudtirol used to be a part of Austria, and at that time north, east and south Tirol was all connected. Now between east (Lienz) and north Tirol there is Salzburgerland and the Italian South Tirol in between. Doesn't make much difference for the population, as far as they are concerned Tirol is Tirol. And who are we to blame them?


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## italystf

The history changed European borders dozens of times throghout the centuries, not respecting etnical divisions and provoking massive migrations. Alto Adige/Südtirol is an example of this.


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## Road_UK

That's right. Mussolini moved a lot from the north to the south, and from the south to the north, but after a while you will see: culture will always win from aggresion. Look at both Germany and Italy now: both fine countries, with fine people and the greatest cultures.

Amen brother... LOL


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## Road_UK

Oh my god you said sudtirol


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## Road_UK

And its the people that make things what they are. Not Bozen-Bolzano, Rome, Innsbruck or Brussels. All they can do is try and protect certain interests.


----------



## Satyricon84

g.spinoza said:


> I drove it several times, both directions. Scenery is stunning, the motorway itself is quite good from the Ligurian side until the watershed, but on the other side of the Apennines it is bad: lots of steep descents followed by 60-km/h-limited curves, very dangerous.


And northbound has a radar control just after a tunnerl with 60 km/h top speed downwards. I know it by memory since I drive on this highway every year to go to my holidayhouse in Lucca, if I remember the section it should be after the Tugo restarea, near Borgotaro. It looks like this









I'll go there in September, if I can I'll take pics


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> That's right. Mussolini moved a lot from the north to the south, and from the south to the north, but after a while you will see: culture will always win from aggresion. Look at both Germany and Italy now: both fine countries, with fine people and the greatest cultures.
> 
> Amen brother... LOL


Mussolini repressed all linguistic minorances in Italy: Germans, French, Slovenes, Croats,...
All surnames were italianized and only Italian could be taught at school. All toponymes in Aosta Valley were italianized (Cormaiore instead of Courmayeur). Opicina (near Trieste) became Poggioreale sul Carso because Opicina had Slovenian origins. The Slovenian cultural center in Trieste (narodni dom, national house, located in Via Fabio Filzi, now languages university) was set on fire.
In Alto Adige / Südtirol there were the Katakombenschule (underground schools), where German language was taugh to children secretely.
But since it wasn't enough, they also ban foreign words from everyday language: mescita instead of bar, tramezzino instead of sandwich, acquavite instead of cognac,... Sounds crazy? Well, France still do that with English words.


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## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Oh my god you said sudtirol


I said both as it should be correct. But no just German.


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## g.spinoza

Satyricon84 said:


> And northbound has a radar control just after a tunnerl with 60 km/h top speed downwards. I know it by memory since I drive on this highway every year to go to my holidayhouse in Lucca, if I remember the section it should be after the Tugo restarea, near Borgotaro. It looks like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll go there in September, if I can I'll take pics


 I have some pics made some months ago, northbound until the watershed... tomorrow I'll try and post them.


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## keber

x-type said:


> btw has somebody driven A15? that is one of the rarest mentioned motorways in Italy, isn't it? absolutely mistery to me.


And over Google Maps it looks very interesting. It seems that there is very demanding geology on northern slopes of Apennines therefore many reconstructions can be seen on satellite pictures.

And this:

















https://maps.google.com/?ll=44.5283...,0.013937&hnear=Ljubljana,+Slovenija&t=k&z=17

I have a feeling that we already discussed about that motorway some years ago.


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## Satyricon84

^^ These pics are old, that viaduct was demolished 2 years ago


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## Suburbanist

All roads that cross the Apennines in Liguria are interesting. I've driven in all of them 

A15 was commented above

A7 is an interesting case: the southbound (Alessandria => Genova) lanes are much more windy and twisting whereas the northbound ones are more straight (they were added later when the road was twinned). In some sectors, the lanes follow in an "inverted" positionl like here, and the southbound lanes have a much lower standard than the northbound ones, with tight curves, passing close to houses etc (it was not originally built as a highway). The partially-underground A7 x A12 stack interchange is very interesting 

A26 is the more modern of the 4 links, both carriageways are built next to each other, and the highway has less curves and twists than the others, though a larger share of trucks vs. cars as it provides faster links to logistic areas east of Milano, the Simplon access road etc.

A6 has also very different standards and design for northbound and southbound lanes. Contrary to A7, it was originally built already as a highway (southbound carriageway) with a 1+1+1 freak design whereas the central lane was a passing lane for _both_ directions of travel. It was extremely deadly and some courts ordered the highway closed for several months while they removed the central passing lane, widened both remaining lanes! Northbound lanes were added later with a much straighter design and , and both carriageway diverge from each other often, sometimes running form kms in the "wrong" direction, e.g., southbound lanes on the left, yielding some odd exits/U-turns like this. It has an helix here




===============

My last comment on the language brouhaha off-topic: this whole controversy only exists, paradoxically, because Italians were not so good at repressing languages and culture as some of the European neighbors (I'm not saying they should have been!). Had the Italians done to the German-speaking population of Tirol and A.A. (annexed after their country lost World War I in 1918), what Poland did to the German-speaking population of Upper Silesia and Pomerania after WW-2; or what Yugoslavia did to the Italian minority in Dalmatia (which had been there for 2 centuries) in 1946, e.g., expelling all the minority-speaking population and ethnically cleansing the areas, there would be no controversy to whine about. No one in, say, Dresden whines about how _Breslau_ is governed by an "oppressive" Polish government with no respect for the centuries-old Prussian heritage of the city.

On top of that, Sudtirol province got what is probably the best deal in terms of "special statutes" in Europe: they keep 90% of national Italian taxes collected there, but with that retention they pay only around 50% of the per-capita costs of services delivered by the national government. Awesome deal, craved by fear of communism in the 1970s.

So I think it is extremely unfair to bash the Italian state when the own existence of the minority in the areas reclaimed/gained from Austria in 1918 is due to the less harsh approach the same state took comparing to what happened in pretty much the rest of Central Europe.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> All roads that cross the Apennines in Liguria are interesting. I've driven in all of them
> 
> A15 was commented above
> 
> A7 is an interesting case: the southbound (Alessandria => Genova) lanes are much more windy and twisting whereas the northbound ones are more straight (they were added later when the road was twinned). In some sectors, the lanes follow in an "inverted" positionl like here, and the southbound lanes have a much lower standard than the northbound ones, with tight curves, passing close to houses etc (it was not originally built as a highway). The partially-underground A7 x A12 stack interchange is very interesting
> 
> A26 is the more modern of the 4 links, both carriageways are built next to each other, and the highway has less curves and twists than the others, though a larger share of trucks vs. cars as it provides faster links to logistic areas east of Milano, the Simplon access road etc.
> 
> A6 has also very different standards and design for northbound and southbound lanes. Contrary to A7, it was originally built already as a highway (southbound carriageway) with a 1+1+1 freak design whereas the central lane was a passing lane for both directions of travel. It was extremely deadly and some courts ordered the highway closed for several months while they removed the central passing lane, widened both remaining lanes! Northbound lanes were added later with a much straighter design and , and both carriageway diverge from each other often, sometimes running form kms in the "wrong" direction, e.g., southbound lanes on the left, yielding some odd exits/U-turns like this. It has an helix here
> 
> ===============
> 
> My last comment on the language brouhaha off-topic: this whole controversy only exists, paradoxically, because Italians were not so good at repressing languages and culture as some of the European neighbors (I'm not saying they should have been!). Had the Italians done to the German-speaking population of Tirol and A.A. (annexed after their country lost World War I in 1918), what Poland did to the German-speaking population of Upper Silesia and Pomerania after WW-2; or what Yugoslavia did to the Italian minority in Dalmatia (which had been there for 2 centuries) in 1946, e.g., expelling all the minority-speaking population and ethnically cleansing the areas, there would be no controversy to whine about. No one in, say, Dresden whines about how Breslau is governed by an "oppressive" Polish government with no respect for the centuries-old Prussian heritage of the city.
> 
> On top of that, Sudtirol province got what is probably the best deal in terms of "special statutes" in Europe: they keep 90% of national Italian taxes collected there, but with that retention they pay only around 50% of the per-capita costs of services delivered by the national government. Awesome deal, craved by fear of communism in the 1970s.
> 
> So I think it is extremely unfair to bash the Italian state when the own existence of the minority in the areas reclaimed/gained from Austria in 1918 is due to the less harsh approach the same state took comparing to what happened in pretty much the rest of Central Europe.


I think the A6 is something unique, with that curves and the two direction following two completely different paths.

About ethnic minorances: in democratic countries should be recognized and protected, almost every European country has some. But Alto Adige is sucking too much money from the Italian state. Those privileges were given after local separatists placed some bombs around and killed Italian cops in the 60s. Now they would never became part of Austria because Austria wouldn't give them such privileges.
Many local politicians still openly support those deadly terrorists, call them patriotic heroes and name streets after them. Isn't it unacceptable in a democratic and civilized state?


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## g.spinoza

^^ It is widely known in Italy that Alto Adige retains this level of autonomy just because of the terrorist attacks and bombs they planted in the 60s. One road in Appiano sulla strada del vino (Eppan an der Weinstraße) is dedicated to Sepp Kerschbaumer, leader of the terrorist group Befreiungsausschuss Südtirol. It's like liberated Iraq would dedicate a road to Saddam.

edit: (posted before reading italystf's post, basically saying same things)


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## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> It's like liberated Iraq would dedicate a road to Saddam.


Or "ulica Marsala Tita" in many cities in the now EU democracies Slovenia and Croatia.


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## Road_UK

Is it ever likely to change? I mean, residents are to be given the option of having an Austrian passport as well now. And to me the normal everyday person doesn't appear to be anti-Italian. They all have normal Italian license plates, with the I on the Euroband. Only difference that on the band on the other side of the plate they have the Tirolian eagle as well, like on the numberplates here.


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## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Is it ever likely to change? I mean, residents are to be given the option of having an Austrian passport as well now. And to me the normal everyday person doesn't appear to be anti-Italian. They all have normal Italian license plates, with the I on the Euroband. Only difference that on the band on the other side of the plate they have the Tirolian eagle as well, like on the numberplates here.


Also Trento and Aosta have the coat of arm on the right side.


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## g.spinoza

Here are some pictures of the (first half of) A15, from Liguria to the watershed.

Beginning from A12:


















Exit Pontremoli:









This should be the watershed tunnel:









Then I stopped taking pictures because it was too dark.


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## danielstan

Do you know the liberated Iraq has foreign troops on its soil?

On another topic: 
Italian word 'minoranza' is English word 'minority' ('minorance' is not English)


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## keber

An interesting question: would be possible to drive this additional loop (extra 210 km) between Alessandria and Cremona using A7-A12-A15 and paying only straight A21 toll rate (about 8-10 €) between both cities:
https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=...wId0tOXAA&t=m&mra=dme&mrsp=2&sz=13&via=1&z=10

Of course that would be done from sightseeing point of view only.


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## g.spinoza

danielstan said:


> Do you know the liberated Iraq has foreign troops on its soil?


And that should move Iraqis to hail their former dictator? God.



keber said:


> An interesting question: would be possible to drive this additional loop (extra 210 km) between Alessandria and Cremona using A7-A12-A15 and paying only straight A21 toll rate (about 8-10 €) between both cities:
> https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=...wId0tOXAA&t=m&mra=dme&mrsp=2&sz=13&via=1&z=10


Sure you can.


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## italystf

keber said:


> An interesting question: would be possible to drive this additional loop (extra 210 km) between Alessandria and Cremona using A7-A12-A15 and paying only straight A21 toll rate (about 8-10 &#128 between both cities:
> https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=A21&daddr=44.27001,9.42636+to:A21&hl=sl&ll=44.628596,9.608917&spn=1.011536,2.113495&sll=45.032167,9.891129&sspn=0.125561,0.264187&geocode=FYBXrQIdEKqGAA%3BFbqBowIduNWPACmV_cDg9pbUEjFgFz06feYFEw%3BFYWerwId0tOXAA&t=m&mra=dme&mrsp=2&sz=13&via=1&z=10
> 
> Of course that would be done from sightseeing point of view only.


Yes, you can. They know only where you entered, not the route you took. I wonder what happens if you did an entire circle and you exit where you entered.


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## CNGL

^^ I wondered the same years ago.

I have been on the E3*3* (Signs are wrong, A15 is E33, not E31 which runs in Germany and the Netherlands). Nice motorway, but at the time I passed there was a World Cup match involving Spain. We lost then (against Switzerland), but eventually we became world champions.


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## Suburbanist

I think you can travel like this and pay only the Brescia-Verona tolls


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## g.spinoza

Updates from A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria.

ANAS CEO Pietro Ciucci said in an interview:
"Last July 12th we opened 7 km of new autostrada between exits San Mango and Falerna; today we open 3 km of northbound carriageway in the same stretch; also today we open 5.5 km of new autostrada: 2.5km between Tarsia Nord and Tarsia Sud (with the important Serra Ospedale tunnel), 1 km between Campotenese and Morano and 2 km around the new Firmo exit.

Also today, 24 month after beginning of the works, 10 km of northbound carriageway are opened, between Campotenese and Morano. This is a significative mountain stretch, with 6 new tunnels (2800 m in total) and 14 viaducts (2000 m). Amongst the latter we mention the Caballa viaduct, with a central span of 100 m.

Within July we will open another 12.6 km: 3 km between Lagonegro Nord and Lauria nord on the 27th; 2.7 km between Rosarno and Mileto and 2.8 km of La Motta tunnel. On the 31st we will open the last 4 km between Barritteri tunnel (2500 m) and the new exit Bagnara Sant'Elia Melicuccà".


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## g.spinoza

And a couple pictures of the new Favazzina viaducts:



legolego said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [stradeeautostrade.it]


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## hofburg

italystf said:


> Or "ulica Marsala Tita" in many cities in the now EU democracies Slovenia and Croatia.


In Slovenia there's a ban of doing this by constitutional court


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## Satyricon84

My pics of the A10 in the section between Albenga and Ventimiglia


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## italystf

hofburg said:


> In Slovenia there's a ban of doing this by constitutional court


Ironically in Italy we have " Via Josif Broz Tito" in Parma and "Piazza Vladimir Uljanov Lenin" in Cavriago (RE). Relicts from the PCI times.


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## danielstan

I feel a negative conotation on Tito's leadership, even some people claimed Yugoslavia was not a comunist country (or not a country in the soviet block) between 1945 - 1989 (thanks to who?).
I dare to say Tito would have been a bless for communist Romania instead of Ceausescu we had at the time.


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## Road_UK

What if I want to do a delivery in my van?


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## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> Why this medieval thinking?


Because city centres in Italy ARE medieval. They are not made for cars. Since we cannot remove city centres, we remove cars, it's as simple as that.



> People *should be confined to their own cities* and never visit someone somewhere else or shop elsewhere then?


Ehem... knock knock. Cars are not the only means of transportation in the world, you know.



Road_UK said:


> What if I want to do a delivery in my van?


Usually they can. It's not thinkable that city centre store suppliers take the bus. But private citizens can and must.


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## Road_UK

Cool. After I've done the delivery I will park up and go shopping :naughty:


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## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Cool. After I've done the delivery I will park up and go shopping :naughty:


That's misfeasance


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## Satyricon84

g.spinoza said:


> Ehem... knock knock. Cars are not the only means of transportation in the world, you know.


But car it's the only transport that goes 24 hours, since public services for 70% are off duty in the night (And I recommend you to use them, if you're tired to live...) and the only one that goes everywhere


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> Because city centres in Italy ARE medieval. They are not made for cars. Since we cannot remove city centres, we remove cars, it's as simple as that.


Should we remove electricity, cell phone antennas, running pressurized water and sewage collection as well? They all didn't exist in 1700... 

Cities just adapt over time for new infrastructure... 

Moreover, Area C is not some small ZTL covering pre-18th Century areas that you can easily walk through like many small cities have. It is a freaking large area almost 5km across in some points. The suggestions of park-outside-and-walk might be feasible in some place like Urbino or the walled area of Lucca but not in a large area like "Area C".


----------



## Road_UK

Also you would have to turn pretty much the entire Viale Zara into a car park and set up a free Park & Ride scheme.


----------



## Suburbanist

Satyricon84 said:


> But car it's the only transport that goes 24 hours, since public services for 70% are off duty in the night (And I recommend you to use them, if you're tired to live...) and the only one that goes everywhere


Barely any Italian city has reliable and comprehensive PT networks on rails (trams or subways or people movers or else). And they all lose money.

Actually, ATM is a prime example: before the 50% fare hike, its farebox recovery ratio was only 16%. And it is not like they had a small fleet foregoing scale gains or that they were running empty vehicles...


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## g.spinoza

Satyricon84 said:


> But car it's the only transport that goes 24 hours, since public services for 70% are off duty in the night (And I recommend you to use them, if you're tired to live...) and the only one that goes everywhere


Why would you want to go to the city centre at night? And if you really want to, night buses still exist. As a matter of fact, they could even open the centres at night, because traffic will be low.



Suburbanist said:


> Should we remove electricity, cell phone antennas, running pressurized water and sewage collection as well? They all didn't exist in 1700...


Correction, sewage collection was invented by Romans 2700 years ago.
And of course you know that you cannot compare electricity and car traffic. The first one makes no harm to city centres.



> Cities just adapt over time for new infrastructure...


Let's hope they don't.



> Moreover, Area C is not some small ZTL covering pre-18th Century areas that you can easily walk through like many small cities have. It is a freaking large area almost 5km across in some points. The suggestions of park-outside-and-walk might be feasible in some place like Urbino or the walled area of Lucca but not in a large area like "Area C".


I never said that Area C is perfect. But from applying it to removing it, there's a whole lot of greys...



Suburbanist said:


> Barely any Italian city has reliable and comprehensive PT networks on rails (trams or subways or people movers or else). And they all lose money.


In my view, PT is not supposed to "make money". It is a service.


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## Suburbanist

This is more-or-less the limits of "medieval Milano" as in typical irregular patterned, small-and-cramped streets etc. built out well before horse-drawn carriages had become ubiquitous (which dictated the implementation of boulevard when they later expanded the city).

This are, where maneuvering cars would be really more difficult (it is partially covered by a ZTL), is just 1/7 of all the "Area C" or "Ecopass" area.


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## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> Why would you want to go to the city centre at night?....


I'm not taking sides in this debate, but I'm curious about that question: do Italian cities not have nightlife (ranging from theater and dining to clubbing) in their centers?


----------



## Satyricon84

g.spinoza said:


> Why would you want to go to the city centre at night? And if you really want to, night buses still exist. As a matter of fact, they could even open the centres at night, because traffic will be low.


People don't work only during the day, you know? And besides work, life is done also of fun, like to go to disco or pub...
Yes, try to take the night line 90-91 in Milan, I bet then you would change mind


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> I'm not taking sides in this debate, but I'm curious about that question: do Italian cities not have nightlife (ranging from theater and dining to clubbing) in their centers?


Of course they do. I've lived for 12 years in Bologna as a student, had my fair share of night joyrides, and never used a car once.

But who cares, let's trash our beautiful cities because someone is lazy and wants to go everywhere sitting in his car.


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## Road_UK

I can understand G's position. Italian cities are ancient, and they need to remain in tact. Mass traffic and pollution does not keep the buildings in tact. 

I can understand Surbanists position, and hardly ever agree with him. Mountains, buildings and tourist centres cannot make way for asphalt all the time, no matter how high the demand. I know you love concrete, but it's just not possible.


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## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> Of course they do. I've lived for 12 years in Bologna as a student, had my fair share of night joyrides, and never used a car once.
> 
> But who cares, let's trash our beautiful cities because someone is lazy and wants to go everywhere sitting in his car.


Sigh.

Your question seemed to me to suggest that city centers were dead at night: that there was no reason for going into them at all, as opposed to no reason for going in by car. Hence my question to you was (if I say so myself) reasonable.

I'm not advocating trashing anything, and that should have been clear. But there are reasons for using cars besides laziness.


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## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> Sigh.
> 
> Your question seemed to me to suggest that city centers were dead at night: that there was no reason for going into them at all, as opposed to no reason for going in by car. Hence my question to you was (if I say so myself) reasonable.
> 
> I'm not advocating trashing anything, and that should have been clear. But there are reasons for using cars besides laziness.


I'm sorry, the "trash" part was not addressed to you. You asked a fair question because I was not clear before, I added the "trash" part later.


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> But who cares, let's trash our beautiful cities because someone is lazy and wants to go everywhere sitting in his car.


Try, realistically, to live somewhere around Milano (which is common for middle class families because of housing costs), going out in the city and trying to rely on PT to go back home... impossible. There is NO public transportation after 23h-0h (and "reliable" PT stops much earlier than that) until next day. Which, in case of a weekend morning, means 7.00 or so for the first services.

In the case of Bologna, many young (18-30) people go the from Ravenna, Modena and other cities because of better nightlife, but then they have to go back. There is no possible way to return home expect driving unless you want to wait 8am next day. During summer, many people from Bologna and other cities go for a night out in the coast, but return home same night as it's damn out of reach of a student's budget to fork €€ for a hotel night, whereas borrowing their parents' car for a night out is more realistically feasible.


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> Try, realistically, to live somewhere around Milano (which is common for middle class families because of housing costs), going out in the city and trying to rely on PT to go back home... impossible. There is NO public transportation after 23h-0h (and "reliable" PT stops much earlier than that) until next day. Which, in case of a weekend morning, means 7.00 or so for the first services.
> 
> In the case of Bologna, many young (18-30) people go the from Ravenna, Modena and other cities because of better nightlife, but then they have to go back. There is no possible way to return home expect driving unless you want to wait 8am next day. During summer, many people from Bologna and other cities go for a night out in the coast, but return home same night as it's damn out of reach of a student's budget to fork €€ for a hotel night, whereas borrowing their parents' car for a night out is more realistically feasible.


When you go out at night, you are likely to have a few drinks, and shouldn't be driving in the first place.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> Try, realistically, to live somewhere around Milano (which is common for middle class families because of housing costs), going out in the city and trying to rely on PT to go back home... impossible. There is NO public transportation after 23h-0h (and "reliable" PT stops much earlier than that) until next day. Which, in case of a weekend morning, means 7.00 or so for the first services.


Again, I never said that you can close city centres tomorrow and everything will be fine. There are things to do, more buses and trams to establish, ecc ecc, and someone will still be damaged. But to me the common good is more important than the good of someone.



> In the case of Bologna, many young (18-30) people go the from Ravenna, Modena and other cities because of better nightlife, but then they have to go back. There is no possible way to return home expect driving unless you want to wait 8am next day. During summer, many people from Bologna and other cities go for a night out in the coast, but return home same night as it's damn out of reach of a student's budget to fork €€ for a hotel night, whereas borrowing their parents' car for a night out is more realistically feasible.


So? Take the car from Ravenna to Bologna, park outside the city centre limits and then walk or take a bus. I don't think it's so hard to do.



Road_UK said:


> When you go out at night, you are likely to have a few drinks, and shouldn't be driving in the first place.


This is something I wanted to add, but of course you can (should, no, must) elect a designated driver who will be forced to drink apple juice and cola.


----------



## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> I can understand G's position. I*talian cities are ancient, and they need to remain in tact*. Mass traffic and pollution does not keep the buildings in tact.


This is the basic debate in any Italian city above the town size, I'll try to summarize it.

Some cities like Roma, Firenze, Peruggia, Venezia, for all that is good and bad, have their central medieval areas dominated by overnight tourism (e.g., people who stay there in hotels) and thus have a dynamic of their own (which some people will criticize as "overcommercialization" or "cliché-restaurants" etc. 

For the cities whose medieval centers are not massively dominated by tourist traffic, you have a problem: old buildings are expensive to upkeep, streets are narrow, commercial spaces don't feet the modern demands for retail and offices. To keep the central areas of those cities "alive" and at-par with modern demands, they need massive infusions of cash for extremely expensive retrofitting projects, garages, car traffic and the likes. Simply put: the majority of middle class families is not willing to live in a car-less area, but they also can't fork top-Euro for "lovely restored palazzi" near the main square, for instance.

As a result, you'll end in many city medieval centers with the extremes of the income ladder: the rich, who can pay for nice old buildings, afford expensive car parking permits/garages, and the poor who usually work more on low-skilled jobs and accept living in small/semi-derelict/rundown flats that are close to their workplaces. This is why many people who visit Italian city centers will get the impression that "immigrants are everywhere", as they tend to cluster around old areas in non-renovated buildings and else.

You can *keep old city centers intact*, but that means transforming them in "forced open-air museums". Which might or might not be of some people's taste, especially when you are talking of vast swaths of build-up areas in places like Verona, Bari, Napoli, Genova etc that would become "void of life" in some ppl's opinion.

Some cities escape that trend because they have large student population that populates old areas, usually living in conditions far worse than other Western Europe counterparts (such as paying € 200-300/month and not even having an own bedroom).

Road transportation is, of course, just part, but an important part, of the problem. Many medieval center of Italian cities dwarf anything else existing in Western Europe, so the area of keeping everything that is old intact and banning cars from such areas is just non-workable unless you expect the area to de-populate. If so, and the town is not a place drawing millions of visitors per year, what are cities supposed to do next without taxes to pay for the very expensive ifnrastructure of those old areas?

I think they should take a more realistic approach: preserve some quarters and neighborhoods but rip part of them of for new traffic infrastructure (road and rail) so that more places can be reachable within reasonable walking distance (< 10 minutes) from parking garages and train stations. Actually this is what many cities did post WW-2, like Genova, for instance.


----------



## Penn's Woods

I'm not taking sides in this, as I said, but I am following it. So I have a question: what's a ZTL?


----------



## Satyricon84

ZTL = Zona Traffico Limitato. Limited traffic zone

EDIT: If I remember well you can read french, also here a little explanation http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_à_trafic_limité


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## g.spinoza

Satyricon84 said:


> I don't know what about walls of Bologna so I say nothing about it.
> About your example, I would instead save the 200 houses cause you can't kick people in the middle of the street (and expropriation 99% of the case don't refund you the real value of what you lost with it). I'm sorry but people are at first place for me, then the historic artifacts


I remind you that expropriation laws in Italy grant you 3 times the market value of what you lost. You can replace houses for people. You can't replace a medieval castle or the Colosseum.


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## Satyricon84

g.spinoza said:


> I remind you that expropriation laws in Italy grant you 3 times the market value of what you lost. You can replace houses for people. You can't replace a medieval castle or the Colosseum.


Italian laws says also that is equal for everybody, but we know well is not like this. Same for expropriation. I know it well since the Pedemontana Lombarda will be built on my friend's home...


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> I don't know, I'm not an engineer. A tunnel? A deviation? One carriageway inside an arch, the other in another one? There are lots of solutions. They didn't just want to think about it, *or to spend too much*.


The problem with this reasoning is that, while on a micro level one aqueduct merely 150 year-old might be worth extra € hundreds of million on tunneling/deviation, imagine what would happen if a "tear down no old structure" approach was taken in regard of all infrastructure in Italy. Or just the _autostrade_ for sake... It would be impossible to have built a network because pretty much everywhere there is a "scenic view", some ruins you stumble upon if excavating, some old structures... then A1 Milano-Napoli would have the form of some spaghetti and run for 2000km between two cities if it were to avoid "damaging irreparably" any old structure.

In Italy, even tunneling is problematic because of stuff you find there. Go ask the builders of Roman subway extension...

*Individually considered, pretty much any site might get sympathetic looks of "spare no money and save it", but on a national, comprehensive view, a country like Italy cannot afford to have infrastructure costing 20 times that of US because of an hypothetical do not tear down anything and do not spoil any town policy*".


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## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> The problem with this reasoning is that, while on a micro level one aqueduct merely 150 year-old might be worth extra € hundreds of million on tunneling/deviation, imagine what would happen if a "tear down no old structure" approach was taken in regard of all infrastructure in Italy. Or just the autostrade for sake... It would be impossible to have built a network because pretty much everywhere there is a "scenic view", some ruins you stumble upon if excavating, some old structures... then A1 Milano-Napoli would have the form of some spaghetti and run for 2000km between two cities if it were to avoid "damaging irreparably" any old structure.
> 
> In Italy, even tunneling is problematic because of stuff you find there. Go ask the builders of Roman subway extension...
> 
> Individually considered, pretty much any site might get sympathetic looks of "spare no money and save it", but on a national, comprehensive view, a country like Italy cannot afford to have infrastructure costing 20 times that of US because of an hypothetical do not tear down anything and do not spoil any town policy".


One thing is a random 150 years old country house like thousands of other similar in Italy, another thing is a 150 years old characteristic landmark.
One thing is tunnelling a random mountain or bridging a random stream like many others in the Alps or Appennines, another thing is building a viaduct over Marmore waterfall in Umbria, over Lake Como between Bellagio and Tremezzo or over the town of Monterosso in the Cinque Terre.
If archaelogical reperts emerge during tunnelling works it's a positive thing: they could be shown in museums instead of being hidden forever.
Age is not the only factor that made buildings valuables. I wouldn't see San Pio sanctuary in San Giovanni Rotondo or the Guggenheim museum in NYC torn down.


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## g.spinoza

Satyricon84 said:


> Italian laws says also that is equal for everybody, but we know well is not like this. Same for expropriation. I know it well since the Pedemontana Lombarda will be built on my friend's home...


I'd like to know more about this. Obviously no names, but I'd like to know which problems your friend is facing.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Suburbanist said:


> Try, realistically, to live somewhere around Milano (which is common for middle class families because of housing costs), going out in the city and trying to rely on PT to go back home... impossible.


I live around Milan and use car and PT every day. 
It's called park and ride: there are many parkings at metro stations (and even rail stations and tram and bus stations) close to the city borders.
And even in the metro area, over all at railways stations with S lines service

Anyway Milan is not the only city in Italy to have such a service: Rome, Naples, Turin and many others have park and ride systems.

Obviously things could be improved, but to state that to commute by car is a need is a justification that too many Italians use not to change their habits.
It's not that true that PT is poor or inneficient (in last 15 years there was a general improvement of PT in whole Italian cities too)

Furthermore there is not only traditional PT as alternative to use own cars.
You can even use car sharing service


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## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I think they could have saved the Nottolini Acquaduct, if they really wanted to.





Satyricon84 said:


> How?


A deep tunnel, for istance


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## Satyricon84

g.spinoza said:


> I'd like to know more about this. Obviously no names, but I'd like to know which problems your friend is facing.












The upper circle is a floricolture, and people live there too. They give work to 15 people. They know they have expropriation, but neither the technical office of the comune knows how much land they want to expropriate, and neither when. So they had to hire a lawyer (and a lawyer is never cheaper). Fact is, with this expropriation they don't lose only the house, but also the thirty-years work activity, that should be moved somewhere else. The expropriation refund doesn't care of the additional costs, but only of the proprierty value in the market. And somebody will lose work too.
The lower circle instead they live two families. The have stable with horses, swimming pool and they lived in absolute tranquillity with no annoying neighbours around. To find a new house in the same conditions here will be impossible. Life of those people will change not for their will, and for this there's no refund. 
Then there's a problem that the highway will cut in half a lot of cultivated land, the refund is for the part of land expropriated. Many problems that at the moment don't have any solution, since nobody here knows when and if the works will start. 
I also face problems too even if not so directly: being the Pedemontana will be around 400 m far away from my home, and my home is on sell, at the moment we have a lot of problems to sell. Is not clear if the highway will create benefits or not, this affects the final price that probabilly we have to get lower. And nobody will refund me for this.


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## italystf

Satyricon84 said:


> The upper circle is a floricolture, and people live there too. They give work to 15 people. They know they have expropriation, but neither the technical office of the comune knows how much land they want to expropriate, and neither when. So they had to hire a lawyer (and a lawyer is never cheaper). Fact is, with this expropriation they don't lose only the house, but also the thirty-years work activity, that should be moved somewhere else. The expropriation refund doesn't care of the additional costs, but only of the proprierty value in the market. And somebody will lose work too.
> The lower circle instead they live two families. The have stable with horses, swimming pool and they lived in absolute tranquillity with no annoying neighbours around. To find a new house in the same conditions here will be impossible. Life of those people will change not for their will, and for this there's no refund.
> Then there's a problem that the highway will cut in half a lot of cultivated land, the refund is for the part of land expropriated. Many problems that at the moment don't have any solution, since nobody here knows when and if the works will start.
> I also face problems too even if not so directly: being the Pedemontana will be around 400 m far away from my home, and my home is on sell, at the moment we have a lot of problems to sell. Is not clear if the highway will create benefits or not, this affects the final price that probabilly we have to get lower. And nobody will refund me for this.


The motorway doesn't seem to be built over the houses and the flower farm. Off course living here would be very bad because of noise and pollution but there is no point in demolishing those buildings.


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## Satyricon84

italystf said:


> The motorway doesn't seem to be built over the houses and the flower farm. Off course living here would be very bad because of noise and pollution but there is no point in demolishing those buildings.


Did you watch it with attention? Part of the project is over their proprierty. And besides this, buildings have to keep a minimal distance from the highway.


----------



## italystf

Satyricon84 said:


> Did you watch it with attention? Part of the project is over their proprierty. And besides this, buildings have to keep a minimal distance from the highway.


Yes, part of their backyards would be occupied by the interchange. Do those building must be demolished by law because too close to the motorway?


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## Satyricon84

italystf said:


> Yes, part of their backyards would be occupied by the interchange. Do those building must be demolished by law because too close to the motorway?


I guess also cause they need the space to work on


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

For the first stretch of Pedemontana currently u/c they expropriated several factories and, as far as I know, they were paid to build somewhere else their factories and in some cases Pedemontana co. itself found 'em a new location


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## Satyricon84

GENIUS LOCI said:


> For the first stretch of Pedemontana currently u/c they expropriated several factories and, as far as I know, they were paid to build somewhere else their factories and in some cases Pedemontana co. itself found 'em a new location


Let's see what they will do here. The first stretch was the easiest to build, problems will start when they will build the section near Desio. Already the costs are much more higher than first budget, works had to be already started but here nobody knows nothing about. And 'Ndrangheta already hooked into the project with some people arrested.


----------



## cougar1989

Toll at Italy
*Driveway Bergamo*




Ticket









*Exit Brescia Ovest*




2,80€ Please

*Driveway Brescia Ovest*




Ticket









*Tollplaza Vipiteno/Sterzing*




19,90€ Please


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## g.spinoza

http://www.ilgiorno.it/legnano/cronaca/2012/07/24/748304-parco_satap_accordo.shtml

Within the framework of updating A4 west of Milan (current autostrada has no shoulder in some stretches), a 5.2 km stretch near Bernate will be built anew 250 m south of the current stretch. The new "variante" will be aligned to the existent TAV railway but 20 houses will have to be demolished.


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## ChrisZwolle

Interesting. I assume it includes a new bridge across the Ticino that explains the € 220 million cost. By the way there are not "20 houses" to be demolished, but a single farm consisting of a number of buildings and shacks.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Interesting. I assume it includes a new bridge across the Ticino that explains the € 220 million cost.


That's correct. They also have to drain a little lake and cut some woods.



> By the way there are not "20 houses" to be demolished, but a single farm consisting of a number of buildings and shacks.


The article I linked said so, and reported also that some of the families were already displaced while others aren't :dunno:


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## Satyricon84

A Fisker Karma too


----------



## Eddard Stark

keber said:


> Isn't A4 between Milano and Novara planned for 2x4? Or did I misunderstood something?
> 
> .


it will be 2x4 only between Milan and Marcallo Mesero, or the exit to and from Malpensa. Ticino river is just west of Marcallo Mesero, so it will be 3x3

As I said thought hopefully the bridge will be 3+1 so that it will be allowed in the future to widen also this piece 2x4. A widening that today is totally unnecesary


----------



## x-type

Satyricon84 said:


> A Fisker Karma too


since Justin Bieber drives it, it is double tolled


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## italystf

Eddard Stark said:


> We were not so intelligent. Except a few cases, every time we build an extralane we have to remake all bridges or most of them. There are exceptions: on A14 in the newer stretches south of Ancona it was possible to enlarge without touching overpassing bridges and so on.
> 
> Anyway this bridge will surely be built 3+1 so in the future if necessary it could be made into 4+4 without emergency lane, which is fine for a bridge
> 
> For now the project is to add the emergency lane on the entire Torino-Milano with some upgrades in terms of size, quality of the road etc whil the Marcallo-Mesero- Milano will be 2x4.
> 
> There is - as of today - not much need for a 2x4 also accross Ticino, but we all now these things change


The A22 between Modena and Verona is already ready for 2x3 since it has a very wide grass median.



g.spinoza said:


> Stelvio Pass is the only way to get from Northern Lombardy to Alto Adige, and it's open only during summers. I think it's enough for Valtellina to feel isolated. Tolls will only make this isolation worse hno:


They should dig a tunnel under Stelvio pass to keep this important connection open year-round, especially after the SS38 Colico - Sondrio - Bormio was upgraded to a 2 lane expressway.



Suburbanist said:


> As for electric cars: that is a joke. There is hardly any electric car whose range can travel over the Passo Stelvio safely from Bromio to Prato allo Stelvio. None.


This law isn't made just for 2012. Hopefully electric cars will became more and more reliable and widespread in the next decades.


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> I think you mistranslated. Motorbikes will be tolled: cyclists will climb the Pass for free.


Oh, I read too fast


----------



## Suburbanist

Can a Tesla climb up all the harpins ("tornanti")?

I measured the fuel consumption on several passes' ascents and it is usually like 25-30 liters/100km instead of the usual 5-7.


----------



## Suburbanist

As for the Stelvio: a medium altitude tunnel (entrances at 1600m approximately) and 1+1 expressway approaches would go a LONG way making the connections to the area better.

Especially with the crawling but ongoing projects on SS38.


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## Perennial Quest

Satyricon84 said:


> A Fisker Karma too


But Karma is only a hybrid. 




Suburbanist said:


> Can a Tesla climb up all the harpins ("tornanti")?
> 
> I measured the fuel consumption on several passes' ascents and it is usually like 25-30 liters/100km instead of the usual 5-7.


Sure, and it's REALLY funny to drive on mountain roads too. The amazing thing is that you can regenerate some energy while descending to the other side. :cheers:

End of O.T.


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## Satyricon84

Perennial Quest said:


> But Karma is only a hybrid.


It's series-hybrid car, not parallel hybrid. This system has electric traction only, combustion engine turns only the generator to recharge battery in case of long drive.


----------



## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> http://www.giornaledibrescia.it/le-...asso-dello-stelvio-1.1299990#ansadetailholder
> 
> Green light for Stelvio Pass toll. Starting from next 1st January cars on the Pass will be tolled 10 euro. Electric cars will NOT be tolled.


A longer article about this news:
http://viaggi.repubblica.it/articolo/stelvio-scatta-il-pedaggio-dal-2013/226041

Main issues:
- Cars and motorbikes will pay 10 euro, heavy vehicles 30 euro. Electric cars and cyclists free.
- No toll booth, a vignette will be introduced. There also is a seasonal vignette for 60 euro.
- All money will be used for maintenance and update of the road, environmental works, and PT improvement.
- Toll introduction will likely not lower traffic. In similar tolled alpine roads (Grossglockner, Tre cime di Lavaredo, Rombo) traffic is increasing steadily.
- Most inhabitants prefer a road closure in specific times of the day, instead of tolls.


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## Suburbanist

^^ This article says money will be used to finance roadworks as well.

The idea of closing mountain passes to vehicles is unacceptable.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ This article says money will be used to finance roadworks as well.


I already said that.



> The idea of closing mountain passes to vehicles is unacceptable.



Many other passes are closed at certain times of the day.


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> Many other passes are closed at certain times of the day.


That is usually the case when there is avalanche risk, which closes the passes in mid-afternoon. 

It is a different thing than closing a pass due every day couple hours for cyclists.

===============
Now, the comparison with Rombo and Gloßglockner are not entirely proper: those routes had a lot of facilities built, they make for a nicer experience in terms of signaling, art installations along the route, and their summit is far more organized than the chaos at the Stelvio summit. 

If proceedings for tolls will create such a route enhancement there, I'm all for tolling it.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> That is usually the case when there is avalanche risk, which closes the passes in mid-afternoon.
> 
> It is a different thing than closing a pass due every day couple hours for cyclists.


I agree.



> Now, the comparison with Rombo and Gloßglockner are not entirely proper: those routes had a lot of facilities built, they make for a nicer experience in terms of signaling, art installations along the route, and their summit is far more organized than the chaos at the Stelvio summit.


I don't know if the comparison is not proper. I think I'll drive such roads for the scenery, certainly not for facilities and art installations...


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> I don't know if the comparison is not proper. I think I'll drive such roads for the scenery, certainly not for facilities and art installations...


Of course!

Those facilities add and enhance the stunning scenery that is already there 

Also, they provide something critical: more parking spots along the route so you can get out, go to some vantage point to look at the mountains etc.

The Stelvio summit needs urgent renovation, though. Its restaurants and bathrooms are bad, they have those shacks selling merchandise and souvenirs etc. As I wrote once, they should have an Autogrill up there.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> As I wrote once, they should have an Autogrill up there.


No, they should have traditional alpine buildings up there with restaurants and shops inside. An Autogrill style building would spoil the view. And Autogrill company wouldn't invest for an Autogrill that stays open just 5 months a year.


----------



## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> No, they should have traditional alpine buildings up there with restaurants and shops inside. An Autogrill style building would spoil the view. And Autogrill company wouldn't invest for an Autogrill that stays open just 5 months a year.


I'm talking less of the architecture as I'm talking about the food offer, organization and a minimal of "customer centered" service. 

Of course in a mountain top you'd like to have massive glass panels instead of walls 

But, hey, that doesn't mean filthy bathrooms, unorganized stores, long lines and bad food.


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria: new opening today*
_
- Anas has now opened to traffic of the new gallery "Barritteri" and the new release of Bagnara-Sant'Elia-Melicuccà, the stretch of the A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria between the junctions of St. Elias and Palmi, near Reggio Calabria.

- Open to traffic by August 2 additional km of new motorway A3._


----------



## g.spinoza

brick84 said:


> *A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria: new opening today*
> _
> - Anas has now opened to traffic of the new gallery "Barritteri" and the new release of Bagnara-Sant'Elia-Melicuccà, the stretch of the A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria between the junctions of St. Elias and Palmi, near Reggio Calabria.
> 
> - Open to traffic by August 2 additional km of new motorway A3._


By new "release" I guess you mean "new exit". Google translate hno:


----------



## italystf

What kind of gallery is? Art gallery or photo gallery?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Do people say 's-Hertogenbosch or Den Bosch? (Or Bois-le-Duc? :devil


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nobody in the Netherlands says 's-Gravenhage. It's an archaic name and never used in daily speech. For the Dutch, that city is named Den Haag, which is not too hard.


What about 's-Hertogenbosch? Thank god in Italian it's called Boscoducale, even if it's archaic itself, it's still sometimes used.


----------



## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> Because it's history, and languages. If you want to ignore both, then we should abolish languages all over the world and replace them with a unified esperanto, volapuk o klingon language.
> I will always say "L'Aia", which is simple in my mother tongue, rather than 's-Gravenhage, which I don't know where to start in pronouncing it.


Hear, hear! :cheers:




g.spinoza said:


> What about 's-Hertogenbosch? Thank god in Italian it's called Boscoducale, even if it's archaic itself, it's still sometimes used.


Boscoducale? I love it! See, this is why this stuff is actually fun, at least for weird language and geography geeks like me.

Do you still say "Monaco di Baviera"? (Or is it "...di Bavaria"?)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> What about 's-Hertogenbosch? Thank god in Italian it's called Boscoducale, even if it's archaic itself, it's still sometimes used.


's-Hertogenbosch is used somewhat more than 's-Gravenhage. It's signed as 's-Hertogenbosch on the signs, and that is also the official name, but Den Bosch is chiefly used in daily speech, apart from puritans.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^But The Hague is signed as "Den Haag"?


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> Do you still say "Monaco di Baviera"? (Or is it "...di Bavaria"?)


Of course, otherwise it could get confused with Monaco the microstate. Someone in Italy pronounce the latter French-style, stressing the last syllable, so "Monacò" and "Mònaco" are pronounced differently and there is no need for "di Baviera", but I guess it's a minority.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^But The Hague is signed as "Den Haag"?


That's right.


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> I prefer the actual name of the city as well, transliterated if necessary.
> 
> Exonyms are fairly random, usually historically grown. For instance in Dutch we don't use exonyms for all but one U.S. state (California). Apparently Georgia and Virginia are no problem to pronounce or write, except for California, which is exonymized to Californië. The worst exonyms in Dutch is in my opinion the elementary school-level of phonetically changing names. For instance Baku > Bakoe, Budapest > Boedapest, though this is by far not consistently done.


i also prefer original names, but only while writing. while speaking (croatian) i would feel stupid not to use croatian names.

btw i am thinking right now and in croatian California is also the only american state with croatian name (Kalifornija). 

edit: no, we say Aljaska (Alaska) and Havaji (Hawai). you also have Hawaï in netherlands 


Attus said:


> Here in Hungary we very seldom use exonyms (I mean outside the area of historic Hungary). And many Hungarian names are simply the original name with a hungarianized spelling, e.g. Róma for Roma (same pronounciation). There are no more then 6-7 exonyms really in use here, and as far as I know only one of them in Italy (Venezia => Velence).


i had feeling that you use often exonyms. but definitely the weirdest one is Fiume for Rijeka :lol: i have never understood why don't you use Folyó (if not Rijeka).


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> i also prefer original names, but only while writing. while speaking (croatian) i would feel stupid not to use croatian names.
> 
> btw i am thinking right now and in croatian California is also the only american state with croatian name (Kalifornija).
> 
> edit: no, we say Aljaska (Alaska) and Havaji (Hawai). you also have Hawaï in netherlands


Not even the North/South/West/New states?

In Italian they are Dakota del Sud/del Nord, Virginia Occidentale, Carolina del Nord/del Sud, Nuovo Messico (but curiously, NOT Nuovo Jersey or Nuovo Hampshire). Sometimes you can also find "Luisiana", but never "Missuri".


----------



## Fabri88

Penn's Woods said:


> Hear, hear! :cheers:
> 
> Boscoducale? I love it! See, this is why this stuff is actually fun, at least for weird language and geography geeks like me.
> 
> Do you still say "Monaco di Baviera"? (Or is it "...di Bavaria"?)


I am Italian and it's the first time I hear about Boscoducale referring to 's-Hertogenbosch (Den Bosch).

Then, absolutely forget Bavaria. Bavaria is just the name of a Dutch (and not so good) beer! "Bayern" is "Baviera".

The specification "di Baviera" is due to not be confounded with Monaco, Principality of!

But when you hear about "Monaco" here is usually referred to Munich. If we talk about the Principality of Monaco we'd say "Monte Carlo", the borough where the famous Casino is located!


----------



## Fabri88

g.spinoza said:


> Not even the North/South/West/New states?
> 
> In Italian they are Dakota del Sud/del Nord, Virginia Occidentale, Carolina del Nord/del Sud, Nuovo Messico (but curiously, NOT Nuovo Jersey or Nuovo Hampshire). Sometimes you can also find "Luisiana", but never "Missuri".


And because of this fact Italian translations are getting unused. Only a few people talk about "Nuovo Messico" or other stuffs like this when referring to a state of the USA!

BTW, I also like the original names rather than translated names but when talking to other people I have to use Italian names.


----------



## Attus

x-type said:


> the weirdest one is Fiume for Rijeka :lol: i have never understood why don't you use Folyó (if not Rijeka).


It's totally off topic now, but I answer: it is not weird at all. Fiume had its Italian name and was a free town but belonged to Hungary from 1779 until world war I. In the late 19th and early 20th century Fiume was the greatest port of Hungary, HQ for the Hungarian fleet. But this town has never had a Hungarian name. A great majority of the residents was ethnically Italian but had a significant Hungarian minority. 
Usually for all the towns which belonged to Hungary before the Trianon peace treaty (1920) we kept using the name that we used before (that's why I wrote that we have quite a few exonyms, outside the ex-Hungarian area).


----------



## g.spinoza

Fabri88 said:


> I am Italian and it's the first time I hear about Boscoducale referring to 's-Hertogenbosch (Den Bosch).


Not that Boscoducale or 's-Hertogenbosch are exactly daily material in Italy...



Fabri88 said:


> And because of this fact Italian translations are getting unused. Only a few people talk about "Nuovo Messico" or other stuffs like this when referring to a state of the USA!


I do. I mean, certainly I'm not gonna say "South Dakota". Maybe I won't say "Dakota del Sud", but for sure "Sud Dakota".


----------



## ChrisZwolle

My experience with Italians is that many of them have absolutely no clue how to pronounce English words.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> My experience with Italians is that many of them have absolutely no clue how to pronounce English words.


Correct. Many English sounds do not exist in Italian and people may have difficulties pronouncing them. I surely have. 
It depends strongly on the Italian dialect you use to speak. My Sicilian friend cannot pronounce the "th" in "three". He pronounces it like in Sicilian "tria", where "tr" is a sound unique to Sicilian, and not present in Italian (I can't reproduce it).
I have difficulties with vowels, since I come from Central Italy. In Northern Italy they use many more vowel sounds and have less difficulties in that.

Long story short: it's a mess.


----------



## Fabri88

g.spinoza said:


> Correct. Many English sounds do not exist in Italian and people may have difficulties pronouncing them. I surely have.
> It depends strongly on the Italian dialect you use to speak. My Sicilian friend cannot pronounce the "th" in "three". He pronounces it like in Sicilian "tria", where "tr" is a sound unique to Sicilian, and not present in Italian (I can't reproduce it).
> I have difficulties with vowels, since I come from Central Italy. In Northern Italy they use many more vowel sounds and have less difficulties in that.
> 
> Long story short: it's a mess.


Exactly! Then languages and dialects in Northern Italy have also the letters Ö and Ü in their alphabet, so when pronouncing for example German names we absolutely have no difficulties in pronouncing them correctly.

The only big problem is that parents and teachers must teach what Umlaut means because some people write northern Italian dialects in the French way (so "oe" for Ö and "ue" for Ü) and some other, like me, prefer the German way, so using a 28 letters alphabet rather than a 26 letters one!

Then to get the correct pronunciation you only have to make training and of course, being well educated for foreign pronouncing during your childhood.

I have no difficulties in correctly pronouncing English, German and French language but for example I lack in quality when pronouncing Dutch language! I really need to train myself.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Dutch language is one of the hardest to pronounce correctly. Even well-assimilated immigrants cannot speak it correctly. 

For writing, I prefer the endonyms (Firenze, Genova, Roma, Napoli, etc.) however in speech I will use exonyms for the most well-known cities. But for instance Padova (Padua) is hardly ever mentioned in the Netherlands, so if I call it Padova, nobody would think if there may be an exonym for it, just like places like Livorno or Piacenza or Siracusa which do not have an exonym in Dutch. 

Some exonyms in the Netherlands have been falling out of use though, especially German and French ones. Almost no Dutch would know what Osnabrugge, Brunswijk, Kales or Atrecht are unless they know it from advanced history classes or something.


----------



## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> Not even the North/South/West/New states?
> 
> In Italian they are Dakota del Sud/del Nord, Virginia Occidentale, Carolina del Nord/del Sud, Nuovo Messico (but curiously, NOT Nuovo Jersey or Nuovo Hampshire). Sometimes you can also find "Luisiana", but never "Missuri".


I've always thought New Jersey should be feminine in Romance languages (since Jersey, believe it or not, comes from Caesarea), but no one seems to agree with me. (I could swear I saw "la New-Jersey" in French years ago, but you don't see it now.) And in keeping with the let-the-native-speakers-make-the-rules principle, what I think doesn't matter....


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ "Jersey" the clothing in Italian is masculine:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_(tessuto)
you can see in the first line: "Il Jersey..."


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> ....Almost no Dutch would know what Osnabrugge, Brunswijk, Kales or Atrecht are unless they know it from advanced history classes or something.


I know them....

EDIT: But it's not "Bruinswijk"?


----------



## Suburbanist

Italy was a long story of relocating communities for infrastructure works or as a result of natural disasters.

We could go back to the almost-worldwide famous city of Ragusa to the many hamlets flooded by hydro power plants built in late 19th Century to a city built-from-scratch city in the 1970s after the largest landslides every registered on Earth from non-volcanic causes swept away three towns and produced a 90m-high tsunami on the Vajont disaster.

Italy also removed and actually improved the housing conditions of many households when the government demolished semi-slums in Genova, Napoli and Bari to make room for highways or other infrastructure.

So if a tiny hamlet is under induced seismic risk, they could relocate the whole community to someplace safe in the same area, pay nice compensation, build new housing of modern standards and let the old town slide away - as long as the underground tunnel is safe, of course.

========

This all being said, the Apennines are dreadful, full of geological surprises. Other tunnels through the mountains, road and rail, also suffered from unexpected problems. And it is not like civil engineering in Italy is paltry or inexperienced, no other country, not even China, has as much road or rail mountain tunnels as Italy.


----------



## mcarling

italystf said:


> Public sector is very wasteful and inefficient here, we have far more employees of what we really need.


The public sector is very wasteful and inefficient everywhere, with far more employees than needed, but I admit it's worse in Italy than in most countries. Hong Kong and Singapore probably have the least wasteful and most efficient public sectors in the world, but even there it's far from the efficiency of the private sector.


----------



## italystf

mcarling said:


> The public sector is very wasteful and inefficient everywhere, with far more employees than needed, but I admit it's worse in Italy than in most countries. Hong Kong and Singapore probably have the least wasteful and most efficient public sectors in the world, but even there it's far from the efficiency of the private sector.


That's because in such countries the state has more power to fire unneeded or lazy employees than in European liberal democracies. A wasteful public sector is the price of the welfare state and workers' rights.
I don't know much about Honk Kong. Singapore is a very developed and efficient country but on the other hand it has a quite oppressive regime that regularily violates human rights. I wouldn't be happy living there.
I think Scandinavian countries are the best model.


----------



## mcarling

italystf said:


> That's because in such countries the state has more power to fire unneeded or lazy employees than in European liberal democracies. A wasteful public sector is the price of the welfare state and workers' rights.


I think that's a fair, but incomplete assessment. I think the more important reason is that Singapore keeps the public sector small and let's the private sector flourish.



italystf said:


> Singapore is a very developed and efficient country but on the other hand it has a quite oppressive regime that regularily violates human rights. I wouldn't be happy living there.
> I think Scandinavian countries are the best model.


I've lived in Singapore. I feel my rights are much better protected by the government of Singapore than in Scandinavia, where Julian Assange faces jail for engaging in consensual sex -- because he didn't wear a condom. Of course, we all know that's not the real reason why the Swedish government wants to put him in prison.

BTW, Singapore has a great system for keeping the road free from excessive congestion. On the one hand, Singapore has one of the best public transport systems in the world. On the other hand, Singapore limits the number of cars that can be newly registered each year and auctions off the rights to add the cars to road.


----------



## italystf

mcarling said:


> I think that's a fair, but incomplete assessment. I think the more important reason is that Singapore keeps the public sector small and let's the private sector flourish.


You can say the same about the USA, but I don't think they're a good model. Too much people living in poverty compared to other first-world countries. Too much racial segregation and gang violence. No health care for everybody. Too many powerful lobbies.



mcarling said:


> BTW, Singapore has a great system for keeping the road free from excessive congestion. On the one hand, Singapore has one of the best public transport systems in the world. On the other hand, Singapore limits the number of cars that can be newly registered each year and auctions off the rights to add the cars to road.


Isn't limiting the ownership of private cars a bit of contraddiction for a country that is founded on the economical freedom?
And how can we justify the istitutionalized use of caning not just against real criminals but also to punish kids at school? Under this aspect isn't much different from Iran.


----------



## mcarling

italystf said:


> You can say the same about the USA, but I don't think they're a good model. Too much people living in poverty compared to other first-world countries. Too much racial segregation and gang violence. No health care for everybody. Too many powerful lobbies.


Poverty is next to non-existant in Singapore. The racial violence of the 1960s appears to have been overcome. Health care is heavily subsidized and affordable, without the bureaucracy and waiting lists of western european socialist medicine or the rampant cash bribery to get any care from eastern european socialist medicine. Lobbies in Scandinavia are much worse than in Singapore.



italystf said:


> Isn't limiting the ownership of private cars a bit of contraddiction for a country that is founded on the economical freedom?
> And how can we justify the istitutionalized use of caning not just against real criminals but also to punish kids at school? Under this aspect isn't much different from Iran.


Everyone in Singapore is free to buy a car, but with that comes the responsibility to pay the costs of adding a car to the road. Why should car ownership be subsidized by the majority who choose public transport?
I never knew anyone in Singapore who was caned in school. It's difficult to imagine what sort of atrocious criminal behaviour might lead to that.
You're comparing Iran and Singapore??? Seriously? Iran is the leading holocaust denier, the leading sponsor of terrorism, doesn't allow women to study, supports beheading people for "blasphemy", etc., etc. Singapore is admittedly extremely strict in enforcing drug prohibition and is strict in punishing violent crime, but that doesn't make it anything like Iran.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Buying a car in Singapore is very expensive, but fuel and parking is rather cheap.


----------



## g.spinoza

Back to the roads, please?


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> Stop and do what? 30 years of study? Better to relocate the whole village to a suitable place and keep the works on the tunnels.


There you go again. What nonsense!


----------



## JB Colbert

Satyricon84 said:


> ...
> And what did I say? We are not a democracy since people can't decide own goverment. Democracy= rule of the people. In Italy instead just a bunch of people rule and millions submit themselves to this...


What you wrote doesn’t have the same meaning.

What you are trying to demonstrate is that our Republic System is not democratic, if compared to the other developed countries.

According to your theory, i.e. the PM elected by the people, neither the UK, German nor Spanish republics are democratic systems; in those countries the PM is the head of the winning party.

The US system is not a democratic system too, since the (US) President is elected by the delegates of the 50 States... 

Sorry again for the OT, it was my last one...


----------



## italystf

JB Colbert said:


> neither the UK, German nor Spanish republics


What are UK and Spanish republics?


----------



## Suburbanist

An acquaintance of mine is bitching all over his facebook about a TUTOR fine. He's a bit dumb though. He believed some crap Twitter account allegedly fed by an "insider" of traffic law enforcement saying Tutor was deactivated on A1 near Piacenza for maintenance. Result: fine for average speed of 153 km/h which he posted on his facebook.


----------



## JB Colbert

italystf said:


> What are UK and Spanish republics?


Ops!
You're right .
I meant Systems, instead of Republic...


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Enough, or you'll force me to explain the Electoral College!

:cheers:


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> An acquaintance of mine is bitching all over his facebook about a TUTOR fine. He's a bit dumb though. He believed some crap Twitter account allegedly fed by an "insider" of traffic law enforcement saying Tutor was deactivated on A1 near Piacenza for maintenance. Result: fine for average speed of 153 km/h which he posted on his facebook.


If he's so stupid, he deserves it.


----------



## Satyricon84

JB Colbert said:


> What you wrote doesn’t have the same meaning.
> 
> What you are trying to demonstrate is that our Republic System is not democratic, if compared to the other developed countries.
> 
> According to your theory, i.e. the PM elected by the people, neither the UK, German nor Spanish republics are democratic systems; in those countries the PM is the head of the winning party.


Winning party elected by the people. Monti wasn't elected by people according to his electoral, this is anti-democratic. If you know the Democracy Index by The Economist, you should know the Italy in 2011 was classified at the 31 place as "imperfect democracy", even Cape Verde and Mauritius are better classified than us. Much worse if we take exam the press freedom, an essential element for the democracy; Italy classified "partial free" and like always, the last of the developed countries. Useless to say that at the first places of these charts are always Norway, Iceland, Denmark... countries that are really free and democratic.....


----------



## JB Colbert

Satyricon84 said:


> Winning party elected by the people. Monti wasn't elected by people according to his electoral, this is anti-democratic. If you know the Democracy Index by The Economist, you should know the Italy in 2011 was classified at the 31 place as "imperfect democracy", even Cape Verde and Mauritius are better classified than us. Much worse if we take exam the press freedom, an essential element for the democracy; Italy classified "partial free" and like always, the last of the developed countries. Useless to say that at the first places of these charts are always Norway, Iceland, Denmark... countries that are really free and democratic.....


I can't avoid you to feel less free than people of Capo Verde or Mauritius.
But I want underline that nobody comes during the night at your home, pick up you or your parents and lead to prison, only because you are using internet.
Nobody is stopping you from speaking with more than 3 people in a public place.
Nobody can prohibit you to buy the Gazzetta dello Sport.
Nobody can prohibit you to masturbate with the Democracy Index by The Economist...

During the election day you vote for a party, the day after they can choose who they want to be the PM, even a horse or donkey.
Man you must study our Constitution...

But remember that even the other european democratic systems works at same way, more or less.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Netherlands doesn't elect its prime-minister either. Usually the number one on the list of the largest governing party becomes prime-minister. However, some ministers (such as the minister of transportation in the Netherlands) cannot be elected, but is asked by the party to become minister.


----------



## italystf

JB Colbert said:


> I can't avoid you to feel less free than people of Capo Verde or Mauritius.
> But I want underline that nobody comes during the night at your home, pick up you or your parents and lead to prison, only because you are using internet.
> Nobody is stopping you from speaking with more than 3 people in a public place.
> Nobody can prohibit you to buy the Gazzetta dello Sport.
> Nobody can prohibit you to masturbate with the Democracy Index by The Economist...
> 
> During the election day you vote for a party, the day after they can choose who they want to be the PM, even a horse or donkey.
> Man you must study our Constitution...
> 
> But remember that even the other european democratic systems works at same way, more or less.


But in other democratic countries the premier never controlled all the biggest national TV channels, neither made laws "ad personam" to protect himself and his friends from legal prosecutions nor attack the justice system saying that anti-corruption judges are like the KGB.


----------



## JB Colbert

This is another question, although I agree with you, and although nobody can prohibit him to win elections.


----------



## Fabri88

-Pino- said:


> Apart from speed-reading, you also need a hawkeye to be able to read the route numbers of Italian signs. The font size employed for this purpose is a lot smaller than the rest of the sign and tricky to read at 130 km/h.
> 
> Otherwise, there is some oddity in the Italian choice to signpost E-numbers that are hardly being used (leaving aside exceptions like the E45 Orte - Cesena and the E78) while omitting those route numbers that are being used.


E-Numbers are omitted in many countries! Have you ever seen an E-Number in Germany?

Then, numbers, well, Italian motorways are not so many and then it's easy for Italian people to remember all the motorways and their numbers. And as I explained some minutes ago, Italians prefer nicknames to numbers!


----------



## Fabri88

Italian motorways and their nicknames:

A1 Milan - Naples "Motorway of the Sun"
A3 Salerno - Reggio Calabria
A4 Turin - Trieste "The Serenissima"
A5 Turin - Mont Blanc "Aosta Valley's Motorway"
A6 Turin - Savona "The Verdemare"
A7 Milan - Genoa "The Serravalle" and "Giovi Motorway"
A8 Milan - Varese "The Motorway of Lakes"
A9 Lainate - Chiasso "The Motorway of Lakes"
A10 Genoa - Ventimiglia "The Motorways of Flowers"
A11 Florence - Pisa
A12 Genoa - Rome "The Azure Motorway"
A13 Bologna - Padova
A14 Bologna - Taranto "The Adriatic Motorway"
A15 Parma - La Spezia "Cisa's Motorway"
A16 Naples - Canosa di Puglia "The Two Seas Motorway"
A18 Messina - Catania
A19 Palermo - Catania
A20 Messina - Palermo
A21 Turin - Piacenza - Brescia "The Motorway of Wines"
A22 Modena - Brenner "The Brenner's Motorway"
A23 Tarvisio - Palmanova "Alps to Adria Motorway"
A24 Rome - Teramo "The Motorway of Parks"
A25 Torano - Pescara "The Motorway of Parks"
A26 Genoa - Gravellona Toce "The Motorway of Tunnels"
A27 Venice - Belluno "Alemagna Motorway"
A28 Portogruaro - Conegliano Veneto
A29 Palermo - Mazara del Vallo "Motorway of the Salt"
A30 Caserta - Salerno
A31 Vicenza - Schio "Val d'Astico's Motorway"
A32 Turin - Bardonecchia "Frejus's Motorway"
A33 Asti - Cuneo "Langhe's Motorway"


----------



## WalkTheWorld

-Pino- said:


> Apart from speed-reading, you also need a hawkeye to be able to read the route numbers of Italian signs. The font size employed for this purpose is a lot smaller than the rest of the sign and tricky to read at 130 km/h.
> 
> Otherwise, there is some oddity in the Italian choice to signpost E-numbers that are hardly being used (leaving aside exceptions like the E45 Orte - Cesena and the E78) while omitting those route numbers that are being used.


Try California highways. I casuslly found a stop-sign sized placard amidst the bushes hinting that the ramp on my right lead to nothing less than US101.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Fabri88 said:


> They're not out of date!
> ....


I was talking about E-numbers that have been wrong since 1983 but are still signed, as someone else mentioned.

It doesn't affect me personally, but the fixing-them-costs-money excuse doesn't cut it for me.



Fabri88 said:


> E-Numbers are omitted in many countries! Have you ever seen an E-Number in Germany?
> ....


You can see a few in the German Autobahn thread. (Although do they use them only on "reassurance signs" - the signs between interchanges that give upcoming destinations with distances - and not at interchanges?)



WalkTheWorld said:


> Try California highways. I casuslly found a stop-sign sized placard amidst the bushes hinting that the ramp on my right lead to nothing less than US101.


There's no excuse for that either. :bash:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Delete - duplicate post.


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> It doesn't affect me personally, but the fixing-them-costs-money excuse doesn't cut it for me.


It's not fixing-them-costs-money.
It's fixing-them-costs-money-and-nobody-would-give-a-damn.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> It's not fixing-them-costs-money.
> It's fixing-them-costs-money-and-nobody-would-give-a-damn.


Don't think stickers are so expensive.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Don't think stickers are so expensive.


Tracking all the wrong signs in the whole network, sending people to apply them, closing down lanes... it's not so simple.

And maybe after a year or so UNECE decides to change all the designations again, as it already did many times in the past. Not worth it.


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## Road_UK

Looks messy. Look at the Belgian signs, they keep on adding and removing things...


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## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> Tracking all the wrong signs in the whole network, sending people to apply them, closing down lanes... it's not so simple.
> 
> ....


Other places manage it.


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## Eddard Stark

Italians are quite capable to navigate our network. Why aren't you? It seems to me rather straightforward. Just follow the city direction


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> Other places manage it.


Other places are not on the verge of bankrupt.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A few stickers won't force Autostrada per l'Italia into bankruptcy. 

The Italian signage is usually one the most discussed and lamented one in Europe. There's certainly room for improvement.


----------



## Road_UK

Eddard Stark said:


> Italians are quite capable to navigate our network. Why aren't you? It seems to me rather straightforward. Just follow the city direction


I have no problems with Italian motorway signs, they do the job as far as I'm concerned. The blue local ones would be ok, if they don't put so many of them on one row.


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## Penn's Woods

Eddard Stark said:


> Italians are quite capable to navigate our network. Why aren't you? It seems to me rather straightforward. Just follow the city direction


I haven't tried to navigate your network; I'm just expressing an opinion of the signs I've seen, on this site and elsewhere. I thought we were allowed to do that. No need to take it as an attack on your national honor, or to suggest I'm intellectually limited.

THAT SAID,
it's not only Italians that are using your roads. Maintaining route numbers that are 30 years out of date (30 years!) is unhelpful, to put it mildly, to foreigners who aren't familiar with your route nicknames and are naïvely expecting the signs to actually match their road maps, and posting route numbers in that tiny font on autostrade is pointless.


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## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> Other places are not on the verge of bankrupt.


Some are....


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## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> Some are....


Tell them to come over and pay for improvements, they're more than welcome.


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## mcarling

g.spinoza said:


> Tell them to come over and pay for improvements, they're more than welcome.


How much money does Italy get from the EU?


----------



## g.spinoza

mcarling said:


> How much money does Italy get from the EU?


And how much does Italy give to the EU?
And what has this to do with anything?


----------



## WalkTheWorld

mcarling said:


> How much money does Italy get from the EU?


Less than what it dumps in,actually, and just for being told how to make chocolate without cocoa and wine with sugar. Some cointries rely on numbering, others on terminal cities. You blend in. When visiting the UK I do not insist negotiating roundabouts counter-clockwise. Quite pointless now, anyway. Anybody and his mother has a satnav nowadays.


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## italystf

The real problem in some countries is the lack of traffic law enforcements.
In Italy accident rate dropped in the last decade since driving licence points, suspension of license for more violations, breathanalizers and speed cameras had been introduced.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Spanish fatality rate dropped phenomenally during the autovía boom of the 1990s and early 2000s.


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## hofburg

Road_UK said:


> Not always. Plenty of reckless overtaking and undertaking on motorways in places where there is hardly or no lane discipline, high volumes of traffic and where roadrage is a way of life. In Italy for example.


just got back from Rovereto (Trento), tired from all the lane hogging on La serenissima...


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## danielstan

Whatever the degree of civilization in a country, if the law is not enforced, there will be a certain percentage of people systematically not respecting the laws.

I don't know the actual situation in Italy, but I expect that system of electronic control of speed (Tutor?) to drastically reduce the law violations in matter of speed limits.

Introducing systematically traffic cameras (and sending fines by mail to drivers violating the laws) has resulted in an incredible discipline in traffic in some Western European countries.

"There are no civilized nations.
There are fined nations."


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## italystf

danielstan said:


> Whatever the degree of civilization in a country, if the law is not enforced, there will be a certain percentage of people systematically not respecting the laws.
> 
> I don't know the actual situation in Italy, but I expect that system of electronic control of speed (Tutor?) to drastically reduce the law violations in matter of speed limits.
> 
> Introducing systematically traffic cameras (and sending fines by mail to drivers violating the laws) has resulted in an incredible discipline in traffic in some Western European countries.
> 
> "There are no civilized nations.
> There are fined nations."


Absolutely true, very civilized countries are so because laws had always been enforced there and people are used to accept and respect them. A society made entirely by honest people that can work without enforcement is pure utopy.

BTW, Tutor in Italy is only on (some, now most) motorways. It measures the average speed on a long section.
On normal roads it's called Autovelox and it measures only the instant spees.
The number of people driving 150+ on motorways is much lower than in the past when there were no controls.


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## ChrisZwolle

There's a difference between speeding and reckless driving.


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## Road_UK

Not much. Speeding can be a form of reckless driving.


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## Road_UK

hofburg said:


> just got back from Rovereto (Trento), tired from all the lane hogging on La serenissima...


Funny enough, the worst offenders in that part of the world are not always Italians, but Germans.


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## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Not much. Speeding can be a form of reckless driving.


There's speeding, and speeding. The nationwide 55 mph we had here from about 1973 to 87, as a "fuel-conservation measure," was about as respected as you'd expect it to be.


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## italystf

Penn's Woods said:


> There's speeding, and speeding. The nationwide 55 mph we had here from about 1973 to 87, as a "fuel-conservation measure," was about as respected as you'd expect it to be.


In Italy the first motorway speed limits were introduced in 1973 for the same reason.


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## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> There's speeding, and speeding. The nationwide 55 mph we had here from about 1973 to 87, as a "fuel-conservation measure," was about as respected as you'd expect it to be.


That wouldn't be reckless. But if someone decided to do 130 in the Main Street of Mayrhofen, with a lot of tourists wandering down the road, we would call that pretty, er, reckless.

If there are 3 lanes of motorway, with traffic in all lanes doing 30, and you try to squeeze in doing 100, apart from being bloody stupid, you'd also be classified as a reckless driver.


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## Suburbanist

TUTOR is an awesome and sensible system to enforce speed without becoming just a hassle or a danger (people suddenly breaking way below the limit near the speed trap and then accelerating way above it after).


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## Road_UK

Average speed check?


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## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Average speed check?


Yes, in a section of some km. So don't worry if you drive at 140 for few seconds and the rest at 125.


----------



## Satyricon84

My pics of the A15 (Autocamionale della Cisa), section between Fornovo and Aulla, southbound













































Borgotaro exit


















Just cause there isn't enough space, why not to use the emergency lane too... :nuts:









Tugo Ovest rest area



























Approaching Valico Tunnel... there's a little surprise behind the bend...









...a just happened crash, with the car in the middle of the lane!









Sun is shining in the other side of the tunnel



























Aulla exit


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## Verso

^^ Interesting photos, we don't see A15 often.



italystf said:


> BTW, Tutor in Italy is only on (some, now most) motorways. It measures the average speed on a long section.


What if you drive for just a few kilometres?


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## italystf

Verso said:


> ^^ Interesting photos, we don't see A15 often.
> 
> What if you drive for just a few kilometres?


It depends by the average in the measured section.


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## Satyricon84

Verso said:


> ^^ Interesting photos, we don't see A15 often.


Thanks, in the next days I'll post the pics of the northbound too


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## Satyricon84

My pics of the "Bretella" A11/A12 Lucca-Viareggio, northbound


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## Suburbanist

^^ Nice pictures


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## Road_UK

I never forget this Fiat Panda in central Naples, who actually let me in. Been there loads of times since, but I thought it was something special: a native being courteous to a British reg driver.... Yet, the way they drive never bothered me. Same situations in Prague or Brussels, and I find them absolute assholes. Not the Italians. It somehow fits in their lifestyle.


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## g.spinoza

I'm not talking about people per se, I remember one time when I lived in Naples, I was just arrived there, I was on the bus and asked an elderly lady for directions. She actually took my arm and walked me there, even if it wasn't her stop! I was amazed by the kindness of that lady.
It's just people on the road, who are selfish.


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## Road_UK

Yes, I get that as well in Italy and Spain. One time in Seville, I totally got lost. It was the time before the GPS, so I stopped at the petrol station for directions. This car driver offered to drive ahead of me, and I followed him straight to my address. He didn't even want to accept 10 euros I offered him. God bless him, I would never have found it...


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## g.spinoza

Those are the little things that make you think there's still hope for humanity... 

Changing subject, I learned another thing during my trip. A Southern Thyrrenian motorway, Roma-Latina-Gaeta-Mondragone-Pozzuoli, is BADLY needed.


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## Road_UK

More in your neck of the woods then mine I feel. I couldn't possibly comment on the second part of your comment...


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## ChrisZwolle

Weren't there plans to widen a part of A1 Roma - Napoli to 2x4 lanes?


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## Road_UK

It'd be strange if they did. I never got stuck in traffic there. Plus, you'd get what I see between Bologna and Modena every time: people sticking with lanes 3 and 4 only.


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## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> More in your neck of the woods then mine I feel. I couldn't possibly comment on the second part of your comment...


For lack of knowledge on your part or for some other reasons?



ChrisZwolle said:


> Weren't there plans to widen a part of A1 Roma - Napoli to 2x4 lanes?


Not to my knowledge.



Road_UK said:


> It'd be strange if they did. I never got stuck in traffic there. Plus, you'd get what I see between Bologna and Modena every time: people sticking with lanes 3 and 4 only.


Indeed. Minds need enlargment, not (only) motorways.


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## ChrisZwolle

http://www.autostrade.it/opere/stato_avanzamento.html?initPos=2

All the way down:

I PRINCIPALI PROGETTI ALLO STUDIO - CONVENZIONE DEL 2008 

A1 4° corsia S.Cesareo - Colleferro 16,6 km
A1 4° corsia Colleferro - Frosinone 31,3 km

It's a study according to a 2008 convention.


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## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Those are the little things that make you think there's still hope for humanity...
> 
> Changing subject, I learned another thing during my trip. A Southern Thyrrenian motorway, Roma-Latina-Gaeta-Mondragone-Pozzuoli, is BADLY needed.


There are already long term plans for this motorway. From Rome to Latina there is already an expressway (SS148).


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## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> A1 4° corsia S.Cesareo - Colleferro 16,6 km
> A1 4° corsia Colleferro - Frosinone 31,3 km


Probably more like a long term wish especially in current financial crisis. I always thought that this motorway has more than enough capacity.
For example A1 between Firenze and Roma is most part only 2+2 and I don't see any reason to expand this except south of Firenze.


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## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> For lack of knowledge on your part or for some other reasons?
> 
> Not to my knowledge.
> 
> Indeed. Minds need enlargment, not (only) motorways.


Lack of knowledge.


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## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> There are already long term plans for this motorway. From Rome to Latina there is already an expressway (SS148).


A rather substandard one, may I add. From Pozzuoli to Mondragone it's an expressway too (SS 7 quater - Domitiana), much better. I drove it yesterday and was amazed. A very little effort in widening and it's ready to be motorway.



keber said:


> Probably more like a long term wish especially in current financial crisis. I always thought that this motorway has more than enough capacity.
> For example A1 between Firenze and Roma is most part only 2+2 and I don't see any reason to expand this except south of Firenze.


I agree, there's really no need for a 4+4 widening to Frosinone. The only things that stretch needs are toll booth redesigning, as well as local roads leading to interchanges. Valmontone and Colleferro exits are often clogged, the first one because of a very famous discount market, the second one because toll booth is designed by a madman. Frosinone exit also is bad, not the exit itself but the road that get there: a very busy one, through the Southern neighborhood of the city.


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## Coccodrillo

Four lane roundabout near Affi at the end of SS 450: 










It is here but clouds cover it on Google Maps (but it's visible on Google Earth).

By the way, it's a pity SS 450 is not a motorway linket to both A4 and A22...

(crosspost from the roundabouts thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=94975216#post94975216)


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## hofburg

what direction/destination does the most of the traffic from A22 southbound take after Verona?


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## Road_UK

Either Milan or Modena I'd imagine...


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## JB Colbert

verreme said:


> Having driven in Italy, I have to say that Italian drivers overtake recklessly everywhere, either during a long roadtrip or a short one. The fact that overtaking is banned almost always doesn't help, I mean, they don't distinguish between where it is safe and where it is not because it's always banned.
> 
> There is almost no reckless passing in Spain or France, even in places only accessible by driving 100 km+ on two-lane roads.





mcarling said:


> That's consistent with my experience. Half the drivers who have passed me in Italy have moved back into my lane less than 2 meters from me -- some of them less than 20 centimeters from me -- despite having no one in front in either lane.


I drove the past week-end for almost 2400 km, in Italy of course, on the path Savona-Cariati-Milano-Savona, via A10-A11-A1-A3-SS106-A14-A1-A7-A26.
Nobody has overtook me in reckless mode and nobody drove less then 20 cm from me.
Was I lucky?

Actually on the SS106 there was some drivers did not respect the speed limits.

I don't want to mean that aren't reckless people in Italy or that suddendly all the italian drivers became fair on the road, but someone often represents reality in a stereotyped way.


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## g.spinoza

JB Colbert said:


> I drove the past week-end for almost 2400 km, in Italy of course, on the path Savona-Cariati-Milano-Savona, via A10-A11-A1-A3-SS106-A14-A1-A7-A26.
> Nobody has overtook me in reckless mode and nobody drove less then 20 cm from me.
> Was I lucky?
> 
> Actually on the SS106 there was some drivers did not respect the speed limits.
> 
> I don't want to mean that aren't reckless people in Italy or that suddendly all the italian drivers became fair on the road, but someone often represents reality in a stereotyped way.


JB, I drove 1800 km over the weekend (Brescia-Terracina-Salerno-Cava de'Tirreni-Terracina-Brescia) and I met countless people driving recklessly and doing every kind of stupid and dangerous stuff. It's not about stereotypes, it's reality. Yes, you must have been very lucky.
Maybe we just don't agree on what is "reckless". To me, even overtaking without signaling is being reckless. And in Italy, nobody uses his blinkers...



Coccodrillo said:


> By the way, it's a pity SS 450 is not a motorway linket to both A4 and A22...
> 
> (crosspost from the roundabouts thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=94975216#post94975216)


I can't agree more. I read there was a project to transform it into a direct motorway link, but only if a superstrada could also be built from Affi to some place north (maybe Brenzone, or Malcesine), under monte Baldo and on the side of lake Garda. But guess what? Environmentalists said no.


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## g.spinoza

An article on stradeeautostrade.it tells about the financial difficulties of Pedemontana Lombarda. Banks aren't willing to lend money and works are about to stop.

http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/notizia/100012090599004


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## hofburg

Road_UK said:


> Either Milan or Modena I'd imagine...


then why A22 turns east near Verona, if most of the traffic goes to Milan


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## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> then why A22 turns east near Verona, if most of the traffic goes to Milan


Because it follows the course of Adige river, where it's easier to build, and serves Verona city (and its airport) better. West of it there are morenic Garda hills. As a matter of fact basically noone coming from north A22 turns right to go to Milan at Verona, because pretty much everyone leaves the autostrada at Affi, takes superstrada to Peschiera and enters A4 at Peschiera.

Most traffic goes to Modena, while a substantial but minoritarian part goes to Venice


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## Road_UK

I still go from A22 straight onto A4. It may be a few minutes longer, but I like to stay on the same toll ticket.


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## hofburg

they could build SS450 to the right to serve Verona, and A22 to the left then.

also, when I tap Munich-Milan to g.maps, it gives me that: https://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=S...A;FWDitQIdMKOLAA&mra=me&mrsp=1,0&sz=7&t=m&z=7
Vienna-Milan: https://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=R...AA;FSICtgIdgJmLAA&mra=dme&mrsp=0&sz=7&t=m&z=7

neither one takes advantage of Brennerpass.


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## italystf

It would be batter have a full motorwat triangle Verona - Peschiera - Affi, like that between A11 and A12 in Tuscany.

Munich-Milan https://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=So...0&sz=7&t=m&z=7
This trip involves also the 1+1 A13 in Switzerland and you need two different vignettes (the Austrian one just for few km). Probably it's better via the Brennerpass.


----------



## Road_UK

I met a German once on the Brenner road at the services who was on his way from Munich to Lyon via Italy.


----------



## Fabri88

italystf said:


> It would be batter have a full motorwat triangle Verona - Peschiera - Affi, like that between A11 and A12 in Tuscany.
> 
> Munich-Milan https://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=So...0&sz=7&t=m&z=7
> This trip involves also the 1+1 A13 in Switzerland and you need two different vignettes (*the Austrian one just for few km*). Probably it's better via the Brennerpass.


First: the link doesn't work!

The one that purchases that vignette is a stupid person: Bundestraße 190 all the way! Then into Germany and in the motorway A96 in Lindau!

PS: I agree on the Affi Triangle but local traffic has to be guaranteed to be toll free!


----------



## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> they could build SS450 to the right to serve Verona, and A22 to the left then.


A22 was built in the 70s, SS450 30 years later.



Fabri88 said:


> PS: I agree on the Affi Triangle but local traffic has to be guaranteed to be toll free!


Why? Nobody pays my motorway tolls if I enter A4 at Brescia...


----------



## italystf

Fabri88 said:


> First: the link doesn't work!


https://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=Sonnenstra%C3%9Fe&daddr=Viale+Berengario&hl=sl&ie=UTF8&ll=46.732331,10.426025&spn=4.269402,10.821533&sll=45.58329,10.744629&sspn=4.359419,10.821533&geocode=FbaB3gIdaHiwAA%3BFWDitQIdMKOLAA&mra=me&mrsp=1,0&sz=7&t=m&z=7

Fixed it. Sorry if I used maps.google.si but I copy-pasted the hogburg's post above.


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## Coccodrillo

g.spinoza said:


> A22 was built in the 70s, SS450 30 years later.


(but it doesn't seem so)


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> (but it doesn't seem so)


Can't find its inauguration date but it must be before 2000. Maybe mid 90s, so "only" 20 years later.


----------



## hofburg

as I think brennerpass serves more as a gateway towards the south Italy, than for Milan and Venice routes.


----------



## Road_UK

hofburg said:


> as I think brennerpass serves more as a gateway towards the south Italy, than for Milan and Venice routes.


Not for freight avoiding high tolls in France and customs clearance in Switzerland, plus traffic from large parts of Germany and Scandinavia. Even from Calais to Rome or Milan via Brenner is not all that much longer.


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> Most traffic goes to Modena, while a substantial but minoritarian part goes to Venice


How much of that traffic goes to (southern) Verona? As I can see, there's just one interchange on the A4 (Verona sud), I guess most traffic uses the parallel expressway.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> How much of that traffic goes to (southern) Verona? As I can see, there's just one interchange on the A4 (Verona sud), I guess most traffic uses the parallel expressway.


If you came from Trento/Brenner you wouldn't exit at Verona Sud. Just exit at Verona Nord, take the expressways (tangenziali) end take the exit closer to the part of the city you're going.


----------



## Verso

^^ Yes, Verona sud only seems suitable for Via Nazioni, but you can also continue on A4 and go to eastern Verona. Still, I don't think that's so much traffic.


----------



## Suburbanist

I was taking a look at an Italian detailed road map, trying to came to the conclusion of which new alignments (longer than 50km) are most desperately needing a full 2x2 controlled-access highway where none currently exists.

I came to the conclusion a highway connecting Spoleto-Terni-Rieti-L'Aquila, then multiplexing with A24 and A25 and then linking Sulmona-Castel d Sangro-Isernia-Benevento as the most useful long-distance would-be highway. 

Parts of it have 1+1 expressways, but they aren't enough. A full-scale autostrada would greatly improve mobility, acting as a "spine" for several 1+1 routes connecting A1 or A14 to the "hinterland" like SS650, SS647, SS87 etc.

Chances of it getting built? Low for next 15 years unless a new economic boom is unleashed in Italy.


----------



## Road_UK

And you can tell all this by just looking at a map? I like Rieti, also like the countryside around it. It attracts lots of holidaymakers.


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> ^^ Yes, Verona sud only seems suitable for Via Nazioni, but you can also continue on A4 and go to eastern Verona. Still, I don't think that's so much traffic.


Yes because strangely enough, at Verona Sud exit there is no correspondent tangenziale exit. You have to go a bit through the city to take tangenziale from exit Verona Sud. Not worth it.


----------



## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> And you can tell all this by just looking at a map? I like Rieti, also like the countryside around it. It attracts lots of holidaymakers.


No, it's like the absence of a high-capacity link along the Apennines.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> I came to the conclusion a highway connecting Spoleto-Terni-Rieti-L'Aquila, then multiplexing with A24 and A25 and then linking Sulmona-Castel d Sangro-Isernia-Benevento as the most useful long-distance would-be highway.


Spoleto-Terni is u/c as a 2x2 expressway but with great difficulties (Somma Pass). Apart from that, there is not much traffic to and from Rieti, but I agree Castel di Sangro could be linked better with, well, anywhere. Reaching Castel di Sangro is still quite a challenge, even from the seaside.


----------



## JB Colbert

g.spinoza said:


> JB, I drove 1800 km over the weekend (Brescia-Terracina-Salerno-Cava de'Tirreni-Terracina-Brescia) and I met countless people driving recklessly and doing every kind of stupid and dangerous stuff. It's not about stereotypes, it's reality. Yes, you must have been very lucky.
> Maybe we just don't agree on what is "reckless". To me, even overtaking without signaling is being reckless. And in Italy, nobody uses his blinkers...
> ...


Which kind of stupid stuff? 
It's a bit generic your statement.

I agree that, probably, we don't agree on "reckless" definition.

In my opinion reckless is to arrive, at high speed, at 20 cm from me, while I'm overtaking another car, like that stupid people I met up on in Germany last July, on the A5 between Karlsruhe and Freiburg, a section without speed limits.
I was overtaking a car at 140km/h and a "gentleman" (certainly not italian) arrived, I suppose, at least at 160Km/h very close to me.
Or driving above the speed limits in the road work area, and the italians in this case are world and olimpic champions...

Overtaking without signaling could be reckless but if the distance is appropriate you can manage easily; but, even in this case, in my experience I met few people don't using the signaling.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Which kind of stupid stuff? Just some examples:
- While I'm overtaking a truck (who's overtaking another truck), in third lane, at 130 km/h, a Audi comes behind me at full speed (must have been 200), brakes and flashes its light furiously, trying to pass between me and the truck, and when my overtake was done passes me on the right, while I was beginning to come back to the second lane and risking a collision;
- on 1+1 roads with overtake ban, overtaking me, going in the other lane while other cars are coming and thus re-entering just inches in front of me, braking and making me brake at the last second (countless times);
- on motorway ramps, people merging without even looking in their mirrors, and when cars come in the first lane - and cannot for some reasons pass in the second lane - forcing them to brake;
- a variation of the previous one, people trying to overtake while you're overtaking them, forcing you to brake at full speed;
- 1+1 roads, especially with curves, people from the opposite direction cutting the curve and invading your lane (especially made by bikers), forcing you to brake and dribble them, risking a collision with the wall beside the road;
- people so eager to overtake you, especially on 1+1 road, that comes within inches from your back, forcing you NOT to brake for any reason (otherwise they'll collide with you).

There are many more, but this is just a sample. Obviously I was a (passive) player in all these.

EDIT: I don't find driving above speed limits in roadwork areas reckless, because the roadwork area speed limit is ridiculous (40 km/h)... you cannot really expect to go from 130 to 40 where there are two lanes, maybe only a little off their normal track, or a little narrower. It's much more dangerous. In roadwork areas I go 90-100 and I find it a good compromise.


----------



## Road_UK

JB Colbert said:


> Which kind of stupid stuff?
> It's a bit generic your statement.
> 
> I agree that, probably, we don't agree on "reckless" definition.
> 
> In my opinion reckless is to arrive, at high speed, at 20 cm from me, while I'm overtaking another car, like that stupid people I met up on in Germany last July, on the A5 between Karlsruhe and Freiburg, a section without speed limits.
> I was overtaking a car at 140km/h and a "gentleman" (certainly not italian) arrived, I suppose, at least at 160Km/h very close to me.
> Or driving above the speed limits in the road work area, and the italians in this case are world and olimpic champions...
> 
> Overtaking without signaling could be reckless but if the distance is appropriate you can manage easily; but, even in this case, in my experience I met few people don't using the signaling.


You don't think that a lot of Italians, especially the ones in the south have a slight problem in behaving themselves on the roads in comparison to other countries in western Europe?


----------



## g.spinoza

Talking about updating road signs, in the streets around Terracina and Gaeta I found a lot of signs pointing at autostrada A2 Roma-Napoli... that stopped existing 24 years ago...


----------



## Fab87

Verso said:


> How much of that traffic goes to (southern) Verona? As I can see, there's just one interchange on the A4 (Verona sud), I guess most traffic uses the parallel expressway.


If you're coming from Trento and are headed to South or East Verona, you still exit at Verona Nord and then take the expressway which runs along a22 and then a4 until Verona Est. Or, if it's not rush hour, you drive thru the city (from Verona Nord there's an expressway that leads you to the city center). The "ring" expressway has more exits than the A4 and these exits serve better the residential areas, whereas the Verona Sud A4 exit serves an industrial area and is better suitable for reaching the city center through Viale del Lavoro. For these reasons, almost no one would stay on the highway if headed to East or South Verona. The expressway works fine and you rarely find queues. 

There is currently a project for the northern espressway plus a road tunnel under the hills, which would complete the ring (tangenziale ovest, sud and est already exist). 










You might have already discussed about it. I personally don't like it because it would be seen as a toll-free, convenient freeway for trucks and vehicles driving from Brenner to Venice and viceversa.


----------



## Fab87

Road_UK said:


> You don't think that a lot of Italians, especially the ones in the south have a slight problem in behaving themselves on the roads in comparison to other countries in western Europe?


You are partly right. But on the other hand many foreigners seem to consider Italy as a rule-free happy land, because "if the italians don't respect rules, why should we do?" I drive on the A4 between Verona and Padova almost on a weekly basis and one reckless driver out of two is not italian.

I don't know enough about southern Italy. In (northern) Italy I usually have problems driving in big cities, but I wouldn't say italian highways are that bad. It's just that we care about different things. In Italy most people don't stop at pedestrian crossings, in France they do, but they are generally more aggressive and driving on the French highways was quite bad for me. Croatia and Slovenia didn't look like a driving paradise either, even though I know they like to complain about the status of italian highways...


----------



## hofburg

you mean what I complained?  lane hogging isn't something unique to some country, but just bad driving habit in general. In Slovenia some people still drive too fast, although it's much better than it was before.


----------



## Verso

Fab87 said:


> You might have already discussed about it. I personally don't like it because it would be seen as a toll-free, convenient freeway for trucks and vehicles driving from Brenner to Venice and viceversa.


But you'd have to leave the uninterrupted toll system; as if you drove on the old _Tangenziale di Mestre_. But yes, some people would do that.


----------



## Fab87

hofburg said:


> you mean what I complained?  lane hogging isn't something unique to some country, but just bad driving habit in general. In Slovenia some people still drive too fast, although it's much better than it was before.


I was not referring to you in particular, I have 5-6 croatian friends (so, not your cup of tea  ) and we discussed about it, and I remember other users complaining about it here. 
I know Slovenia and Croatia improved a lot on before, I remember Istria in 1997 and it was a nightmare, a lot of extremely dangerous overtakings and road signs were terrible. Italy on the contrary is not improving very much, even though the Tutor has done a great job as for the speed limits. 
I migh be accostumed to lane hogging (even though i don't do it myself) more than you, so that i get more sensitive about speed or aggressivity rather than this. The biggest hassle on italian highways is to me when trucks overtake each other.


----------



## Fab87

Verso said:


> But you'd have to leave the uninterrupted toll system; as if you drove on the old _Tangenziale di Mestre_. But yes, some people would do that.


That would be quite bad for the people from Verona: should the eastern espressway become a toll road, they would stop using it. Actually the plan is to have a toll only for the driving trough the tunnel, even though it's not clear if it will be possible for the local people to buy a vignette like the "telepass" to avoid toll booth queing.


----------



## Verso

Fab87 said:


> The biggest hassle on italian highways is to me when trucks overtake each other.


That happens all the time here.


----------



## JB Colbert

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Which kind of stupid stuff? Just some examples:
> - While I'm overtaking a truck (who's overtaking another truck), in third lane, at 130 km/h, a Audi comes behind me at full speed (must have been 200), brakes and flashes its light furiously, trying to pass between me and the truck, and when my overtake was done passes me on the right, while I was beginning to come back to the second lane and risking a collision;
> - on 1+1 roads with overtake ban, overtaking me, going in the other lane while other cars are coming and thus re-entering just inches in front of me, braking and making me brake at the last second (countless times);
> - on motorway ramps, people merging without even looking in their mirrors, and when cars come in the first lane - and cannot for some reasons pass in the second lane - forcing them to brake;
> - a variation of the previous one, people trying to overtake while you're overtaking them, forcing you to brake at full speed;
> - 1+1 roads, especially with curves, people from the opposite direction cutting the curve and invading your lane (especially made by bikers), forcing you to brake and dribble them, risking a collision with the wall beside the road;
> - people so eager to overtake you, especially on 1+1 road, that comes within inches from your back, forcing you NOT to brake for any reason (otherwise they'll collide with you).
> 
> There are many more, but this is just a sample. Obviously I was a (passive) player in all these.
> 
> EDIT: I don't find driving above speed limits in roadwork areas reckless, because the roadwork area speed limit is ridiculous (40 km/h)... you cannot really expect to go from 130 to 40 where there are two lanes, maybe only a little off their normal track, or a little narrower. It's much more dangerous. In roadwork areas I go 90-100 and I find it a good compromise.


Usually the speed limits in roadworks area set to 60-80 km/h, rarely at 40 when the road is narrow.
If you consider ridiculous these speed limits another one could consider ridiculous the overtake ban on a rectilinear 1+1 road, isn't?

I know that Italy is not a road paradise , but it is not even hell.


----------



## g.spinoza

JB Colbert said:


> Usually the speed limits in roadworks area set to 60-80 km/h, rarely at 40 when the road is narrow.
> If you consider ridiculous these speed limits another one could consider ridiculous the overtake ban on a rectilinear 1+1 road, isn't?


No, they're very different and you know it. Going 80 in a roadwork area is not going to kill anyone. Overtaking when it's not possible is.



> I know that Italy is not a road paradise , but it is not even hell.


I never said that. Possibly if I go to South Africa or Argentina (I don't know, I chose two countries random) it's worse. But since I'll never drive there, I consider Italy my driving hell, for now.


----------



## JB Colbert

g.spinoza said:


> No, they're very different and you know it. Going 80 in a roadwork area is not going to kill anyone. Overtaking when it's not possible is.


Are you sure?!?
As you know, in Italy we say "to make two weight and two misures", I don't know how I could translate better in english. 
In a roadwork area could happen everythng, for example a truck that have to enter into (or exit from) a closed traffic lane; raw construction material could falls accidentaly over the traffic lane; roadworkers very close to the traffic lane, and so on.
In these cases accident could happen easily, and as much as easily killing anyone.



g.spinoza said:


> ...
> I never said that. Possibly if I go to South Africa or Argentina (I don't know, I chose two countries random) it's worse. But since I'll never drive there, I consider Italy my driving hell, for now.


Everyone has to pay for his own punishment... Probably your punishment is light 

PS
I respect always speed limits and never overtake when is prohibited.


----------



## g.spinoza

JB Colbert said:


> Are you sure?!?
> As you know, in Italy we say "to make two weight and two misures", I don't know how I could translate better in english.
> In a roadwork area could happen everythng, for example a truck that have to enter into (or exit from) a closed traffic lane; raw construction material could falls accidentaly over the traffic lane; roadworkers very close to the traffic lane, and so on.
> In these cases accident could happen easily, and as much as easily killing anyone.


You know what, you're right. I always respect limits, even when there are roadworks on a motorway and 80 km/h limit. But I'm not gonna go 40 in a motorway roadwork area, it's simply too dangerous. That would for sure cause me troubles. I prefer going a little faster there than having my back rammed, which is going to happen with 100% probability in that case.


----------



## Road_UK

Do you keep to the far right unless overtaking? Even on 2x3 lane motorways?

(Colbert)


----------



## keber

Me even on 2x4. That's why I often "overtake" lonely vehicles on third lane.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Do you keep to the far right unless overtaking? Even on 2x3 lane motorways?
> 
> (Colbert)


Always. In Italy it's quite easy, since second and third lanes are jammed while the first one (of course only during truck ban) is deserted.


----------



## JB Colbert

Road_UK said:


> Do you keep to the far right unless overtaking? Even on 2x3 lane motorways?
> 
> (Colbert)


Always.


----------



## g.spinoza

Ah, ok, only now I see Road_UK's question was intended to JB Colbert.


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> Ahah, I've lived there for 12 years and never realized that.


They even have some traffic lights with red light in shape of a heart. :lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> They even have some traffic lights with red light in shape of a heart. :lol:


As Sheldon would say: "The heart shape is not based on the actual shape of the heart, but on the buttocks of a female bent over"


----------



## Verso

I could agree with that. :lol:


----------



## Verso

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1002/533021562_ff3de2140c.jpg


----------



## Road_UK

You lived where, Brussels or Bologna?


----------



## hofburg

g.spinoza said:


> As Sheldon would say: "The heart shape is not based on the actual shape of the heart, but on the buttocks of a female bent over"


when did Sheldon say that?


----------



## Suburbanist

can we spare the sexist remarks?


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> can we spare the sexist remarks?


It's not a sexist remark. It's a semeiologic truth.


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> can we spare the sexist remarks?


I've got a really nice butt. It's not a sexist remark, it is the truth. If you want we can build an elevated section on my butt, and then Ive got two sexy butts.


----------



## xrtn2

Verso said:


> http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1002/533021562_ff3de2140c.jpg
> 
> Meanwhile in America. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://soupytrumpet.com/heart-shaped-traffic-light-in-brussels-we-are-not-to-be-outdone/


:nuts::nuts::nuts:


----------



## g.spinoza

In two days (22nd September) first stretch of A31 "Valdastico" South will open. It's a 8,725 km stretch from interconnection with A4 at Vicenza Est and junction "Montegaldella-Longare". Major piece of engineering is the bridge over Bacchiglione river, a cable-stayed bridge with 5 spans of 45m-106m-230m-106m-45m.

http://www.cronacadelveneto.com/index.php?id_news=13120


----------



## hofburg

why are they building this motorway towards the south?


----------



## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> why are they building this motorway towards the south?


It was the original project, back in the 60s, to connect Rovigo, Vicenza and Trento. Why? Because three Christian Democrats, who ruled at the time, wanted to connect their hometowns! Piccoli from Trento, Rumor from Vicenza and Bisaglia from Rovigo. The motorway was informally known as Pi.Ru.Bi from the first letters of the three politicians.


----------



## hofburg

I would prefer if they start towards Trento. those mountain passes towards Rovereto and Trento are horrible.


----------



## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> I would prefer if they start towards Trento. those mountain passes towards Rovereto and Trento are horrible.


Trento is making believe that they do not want to ruin landscape and environment so is opposing the Valdastico Nord, but the real reason is that an alternative route to the Verona-Trento stretch would cause Autobrennero SpA toll revenues to decrease, and guess who sit in Autobrennero SpA boards of directors? Both presidents of Trento and Bolzano provinces...

Anyway, Valdastico Nord project goes on. Yesterday it was presented for VIA, the Environmental Impact Valutation... after that there is only CIPE (Economic Programming Inter-ministerial Conference) and after that... bulldozers!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That sounds like a major conflict of interest to me. Politicians who can vote competitors of their own businesses away.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> That sounds like a major conflict of interest to me. Politicians who can vote competitors of their own businesses away.


The main sponsor of Valdastico Nord is Attilio Schneck, president of Autostrada Brescia-Verona-Vicenza-Padova S.p.A. - which runs A4 (Brescia-Padova) and A31 - who is also President of Vicenza province...

Conflict of interest in Italy is the rule, not the exception...


----------



## hofburg

are there any maps with projected Valdastico nord?


----------



## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> are there any maps with projected Valdastico nord?


There was one some months ago on the internet showing all 6 different proposals, but I can't find it any more.
A cropped and almost unreadable version is this:









This one shows existing infrastructures and the Valdastico nord:


----------



## g.spinoza

Found it!
Page 135 of this Master Degree Thesis:
http://amslaurea.unibo.it/3210/1/PAOLO_SANTINI_TESI.pdf


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Flemish Belgians don't know what to use. In Dutch it's snelweg, but some say autostrada, others call it autopiste...


What's it called in official Flemish documents?
"Snelweg" seems odd, much like "ordinateur" in French... a forced translation. But maybe it's just so to my latin ears...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some older people in the Netherlands also say "autobaan" (like Autobahn).


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> What's it called in official Flemish documents?
> "Snelweg" seems odd, much like "ordinateur" in French... a forced translation. But maybe it's just so to my latin ears...


Autosnelweg I think. Same as in the Netherlands. Translated it means autofastway.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some older people in the Netherlands also say "autobaan" (like Autobahn).


Yes, my uncle does. Rijksweg is also used.


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Rijksweg is also used.


Isn't it "state road"?


----------



## Road_UK

Yes, something like that. Probably another name that has survived from our great grandfather's days.


----------



## danielstan

Very similar to Reichsautobahn... and we know why 'Reich' is not used anymore.

By the way:
in Turkish 'oto' means 'auto' (probably a phonetic adaptation to latin alphabet introduced in Turkey in 1928);
'otoyol' = 'auto road'


----------



## Attus

Back in my childhood (1980's) the word 'autostrada' was heavily used in Hungary, too. And since the word 'strada' has no other meaning in our language, it was commonly shortened as 'strada', meaning a motorway, an autostrada (although in Italian this word has a much wider meaning). 
In present Hungarian language the word 'autostrada' sounds old fashioned, we use the name 'autópálya' wich is a simple translation of 'Autobahn' (would be 'car track' in English). However the word 'autóút' which is a translation of 'autostrada' means an expressway in Hungary (a road signed by a white car in a blue rectangle). 

Funny, as 'strada' means here a motorway, and 'super' means 'very good', when I first visited Italy and heard about a 'superstrada', I thought it would be a very good motorway


----------



## Verso

Yeah, _superstrada_ sounds like an even better road than _autostrada_.


----------



## Tepes

^^I guess it's only super compared to a regular _strada_.


----------



## italystf

Tepes said:


> ^^I guess it's only super compared to a regular strada.


Off course!


----------



## hofburg

Tepes said:


> ^^I guess it's only super compared to a regular _strada_.


meanwhile autostrada is only regular strada with autos.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think the term "autostrada" was coined when at that time, it was the only road type reserved specifically for "autos" (cars). Even though the pre-1950s autostrade did not have motorway standards. The term "autostrada" kind of grew with it to what it is today.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think the term "autostrada" was coined when at that time, it was the only road type reserved specifically for "autos" (cars).


Yes. More likely motor vehicles. In the early Italian "autostrade" motorcycles were allowed but no horse carriages or bicycles.
According to Wikipedia the toll between Milan and Varese in 1925 was:
- 9 lire for motos
- 12 lire for vehicles below 17hp
- 17 lire for vehicles between 17 and 26 hp
- 20 lire for vehicles above 26hp
- 40 lire for smaller buses
- 60 lire for larger buses
- 20% discount for a two-way ticket
In 1926 the AADT was 1115.
In 1923 in Italy there were 57.000 cars, 24.000 trucks and 2.685 buses.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

danielstan said:


> Very similar to Reichsautobahn... and we know why 'Reich' is not used anymore.
> 
> By the way:
> in Turkish 'oto' means 'auto' (probably a phonetic adaptation to latin alphabet introduced in Turkey in 1928);
> 'otoyol' = 'auto road'


I also herd otoban!

Another interesting word is karayol, black road i.e. paved with asphalt. Like blacktop.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Attus said:


> Back in my childhood (1980's) the word 'autostrada' was heavily used in Hungary, too. And since the word 'strada' has no other meaning in our language, it was commonly shortened as 'strada', meaning a motorway, an autostrada (although in Italian this word has a much wider meaning).
> In present Hungarian language the word 'autostrada' sounds old fashioned, we use the name 'autópálya' wich is a simple translation of 'Autobahn' (would be 'car track' in English). However the word 'autóút' which is a translation of 'autostrada' means an expressway in Hungary (a road signed by a white car in a blue rectangle).
> 
> Funny, as 'strada' means here a motorway, and 'super' means 'very good', when I first visited Italy and heard about a 'superstrada', I thought it would be a very good motorway


From the Latin "strata" which literally means "layers" since a roman road was buillt in layers. First gravel, then cobbles, than sand and slabs on top. So you have street, straat, strasse and so on.


----------



## italystf

Some pics I took on the A23 between Udine nord and the Austrian border




























Not always the right lane is annoying! :lol:


















Tagliamento river



























Lago tunnel (1,5km)









Viaduct above Cavazzo lake (unfortunaltely you cannot see the lake from a car but only from a bus\truck).































































Pontebba exit. This junction is very complicated and has impressive viaductsb because of the very harsh terrain.


















roadworks









Tarvisio sud. Last exit in Italy


















No more queues, thanks Schengen









Willkommen in Osterreich!









Tomorrow pics of the trip will countinue on the Austrian thread.


----------



## Verso

^^ Beautiful motorway, as always. "VERKAUF/SALE" - Austrians could at least add Italian as well (vendita).


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> ^^ Beautiful motorway, as always. "VERKAUF/SALE" - Austrians could at least add Italian as well (vendita).


Yes, but this place is a sort of emergency stop for the vignette, if you did forget before. Most people coming from Italy buy it at Fella Autogrill near Tarvisio or even before.


----------



## hofburg

I stop at that autogrill every time. 



> Viaduct above Cavazzo lake (unfortunaltely you cannot see the lake from a car but only from a bus\truck).


 (you can see it from opposite direction)


DSC09462 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr



> Pontebba exit. This junction is very complicated and has impressive viaductsb because of the very harsh terrain.


:yes:


DSC09452 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

actually, I think terrain is not hard, it's just that Italians like to put everything on viaducts.  valley is more wide there.


----------



## F81

Also in France, but they have nicer speed limit posting, which states clearly 130 and 110 with rain.


----------



## cinxxx

Ups! I thought only there digital signs with 110 appeared.
There were also with text to drive slower.
On some portions were the rain was not so strong you could drive safely 130, on others only 90-100. I also followed the locals, but a little slower 
I hope I won't get a letter in my mail from Italy


----------



## x-type

Italian motorways have generally excellent quality of asphalt. among the best in the Europe. i have never been in NL, probably they are in the top, but Italy is definitely in TOP3.


----------



## italystf

x-type said:


> Italian motorways have generally excellent quality of asphalt. among the best in the Europe. i have never been in NL, probably they are in the top, but Italy is definitely in TOP3.


Autostrade S.p.A. and other motorways company repaved large parts of our network with draining asphalt in the last few years.
Only highways managed by ANAS and CAS (Sicily) are poorly maintained.


----------



## hofburg

yes, Italy can do this because of mild climate.


----------



## Suburbanist

hofburg said:


> yes, Italy can do this because of mild climate.


Mild climate?

Soaking rain for days in a row from Oct-Dec on the South and Center, freezing in the north, scorching heat on summer...


----------



## Fabri88

hofburg said:


> yes, Italy can do this because of mild climate.


Location: Nova Gorica

Almost Italy: you know how's the climate in the North!

We spread from some days with -15°C in winter to some days with +35°C in summer.

A thermal excursion of 50°C!

I agree: Italian motorways asphalt is very good! One of the few good things we have.


----------



## hofburg

yes, I know. days with below 0°C are very rare. with snow even less. as far as I know porous asphalt removes water from the surface, if that water freezes, its volume increases and causes damage to the asphalt.

mild climate might not be the best word, just wanted to say that it's never too cold.


----------



## Eddard Stark

hofburg said:


> yes, I know. days with below 0°C are very rare. with snow even less. as far as I know porous asphalt removes water from the surface, if that water freezes, its volume increases and causes damage to the asphalt.
> 
> mild climate might not be the best word, just wanted to say that it's never too cold.


Days below 0 are very rare?

Every single morning in north Italy is below zero for months usually.

And let us not even talk about those beautiful mountain highways we have got like A23, A1, A24-25 which get doses of snow that in central europe no highway gets


----------



## Suburbanist

Has anyone driven on the (in)famous SS3-bis recently?

It has been a while since I last drove there, I would like to know how never-ending works are .


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> Has anyone driven on the (in)famous SS3-bis recently?
> 
> It has been a while since I last drove there, I would like to know how never-ending works are .


I drove there most recently this September, southbound. Neverending works are really never-ending, there were a lot of long carriageway closures. Recently one long viaduct was completed, not sure actually which one. Beware speed traps, I got a ticket for doing 97 (limit is 90 for the whole length, at least the mountain one I think that south of Città di Castello limit is 110 but I'm not sure).


----------



## hofburg

Eddard Stark said:


> Days below 0 are very rare?
> 
> Every single morning in north Italy is below zero for months usually.
> 
> And let us not even talk about those beautiful mountain highways we have got like A23, A1, A24-25 which get doses of snow that in central europe no highway gets


A23 doesn't have porous asphalt. mornings around zero happen, but that doesn't mean road surface freezes.


----------



## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> A23 doesn't have porous asphalt. .


Are you sure about this? That seems odd.


----------



## hofburg

http://www.autostrade.it/en/assistenza-al-traffico/asfalto-antipioggia-drenante.html?initPosAra=3_3

I corrrect myself, it has in its southern part.


----------



## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> http://www.autostrade.it/en/assistenza-al-traffico/asfalto-antipioggia-drenante.html?initPosAra=3_3
> 
> I corrrect myself, it has in its southern part.


Usually this kind of asphalt is not used when slopes are more than (or around) 3%.


----------



## hofburg

why?


----------



## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> why?


My best guess is because water flows down high slope surfaces, it never gets stagnant and doesn't have the chance to form puddles where car tires can slide.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> I drove there most recently this September, southbound. Neverending works are really never-ending, there were a lot of long carriageway closures. Recently one long viaduct was completed, not sure actually which one. Beware speed traps, I got a ticket for doing 97 (limit is 90 for the whole length, at least the mountain one I think that south of Città di Castello limit is 110 but I'm not sure).


Is the Verghereto tunnel open now? I went there in 2010 and we were routed through the steep pass. I remember horrible pavement almost all the way from Perugia to Ravenna.


g.spinoza said:


> Usually this kind of asphalt is not used when slopes are more than (or around) 3%.


There is no draining asphalt on the mountain section of the A23 because during the cold winter it would get damaged. When water inside holes freezes, it increases its volume breaking the asphalt.


----------



## hofburg

italystf said:


> There is no draining asphalt on the mountain section of the A23 because during the cold winter it would get damaged. When water inside holes freezes, it increases its volume breaking the asphalt.





hofburg said:


> as far as I know porous asphalt removes water from the surface, if that water freezes, its volume increases and causes damage to the asphalt.


thank you!

is there a precise map of presence of draining asphalt on italian motorways up-to-date?


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Is the Verghereto tunnel open now? I went there in 2010 and we were routed through the steep pass. I remember horrible pavement almost all the way from Perugia to Ravenna.


Yes it's open, but if I remember correctly only one bi-directional tunnel.



> There is no draining asphalt on the mountain section of the A23 because during the cold winter it would get damaged. When water inside holes freezes, it increases its volume breaking the asphalt.


Possibly, but on A14 for example there are some section in Abruzzo where there are these signs saying "beginning of 3% slope - end of section with draining asphalt", and vice versa: "end of 3% slope - beginning of section with draining asphalt", as if the two things are connected.


----------



## Alien x

hofburg said:


> http://www.autostrade.it/en/assistenza-al-traffico/asfalto-antipioggia-drenante.html?initPosAra=3_3
> 
> I corrrect myself, it has in its southern part.


The English version of the site www.autostrade.it is old the newer version for "draining asphalt" can be found at http://www.autostrade.it/assistenza-al-traffico/asfalto-antipioggia-drenante.html?initPosAra=3_3.


----------



## hofburg

too bad there is no map in italian version.


----------



## 3naranze

hofburg said:


> yes, I know. days with below 0°C are very rare. with snow even less. as far as I know porous asphalt removes water from the surface, if that water freezes, its volume increases and causes damage to the asphalt.
> 
> mild climate might not be the best word, just wanted to say that it's never too cold.


So, on A27 Mestre-Belluno, there's the drainig asphalt only between Vittorio Veneto sud/south-Mestre


----------



## g.spinoza

Due to heavy rains, many places in central Italy have been flooded. Autostrada A1 near Orvieto has been closed (first picture is quite impressive): 

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2012/11/13/foto/emergenza_maltempo_l_a1_allagata-46536128/1/

a bridge on provincial road, over river Albegna, collapsed killing three.

http://corrierefiorentino.corriere....crollato/ponte-crollato-2112681245126.shtml#1


----------



## Luki_SL

^^Here is webcam : http://www.autostrade.it/autostrade/popupTelecamera.do?tlc=97721 It may take long time to retrieve this situation.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

ChrisZwolle said:


> Who knows when A1 Milano - Modena - Bologna was widened to 2x3 lanes? According to Google Earth imagery, the entire route was already 2x3 lanes wide since at least 2003. Modena - Bologna was further widened to 2x4 lanes in 2006.


Maybe in '80s, I actually don't know. But as far as I can remember I never saw it with two lanes (or at least, I don't remember)

Anyway the very first stretch in Milan was not widened.
They just built another stretch (in connection with West and East bypass) few hundreds meters West the orignal stretch.

The old stretch was refurbished and allows the access to Metanopoli district.

http://it.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=45.418409~9.252905&lvl=16&dir=0&sty=h&form=LMLTCC

http://it.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rk217rhs47g2&lvl=18.26&dir=359.62&sty=o&form=LMLTCC


----------



## Verso

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2012/11/11/foto/acqua_alta_a_venezia_c_chi_si_diverte-46371743/1/


----------



## hofburg

... and new waterfalls:


waterfall par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


----------



## g.spinoza

A couple of videos from A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria works:











Don't mind the statement "ready in 2013", it's not realistic. 2016 is more like it, for stretches now u/c. 2025 is more realistic for the whole autostrada.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

I never noticed that tha anas logo was a winged bog-roll. :lol:


----------



## italystf

Has someone ever used this *unsigned* route to get into Trieste from the RA13?
http://maps.google.it/maps?saddr=Vi...Fdi8uAIdpnHSAA&mra=mift&mrsp=1&sz=16&t=m&z=16


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That route is illegal if you come from SR58 from the west. You cannot make a right turn there.


----------



## g.spinoza

Yo can go a little further, drive on via del Sommacco inverting your rute and there you are.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> That route is illegal if you come from SR58 from the west. You cannot make a right turn there.


Sorry, I didn't noticed that prohibition. It makes absolutely no sense, like many signs on Italian roads. It's the first time I see it's forbidden to turn _right_ from a main road.
However, even with this prohibition (that I suppose being widely ignored and unenforced), you can use this road in the opposite direction from Trieste center to the RA13. Or you can turn left to Via del Sommaco, made an U-turn and go straight down to Via dei Baiardi.

But the point is another: why this road doesn't appear on Google Street View while the rest of Trieste does? :lol:


----------



## xrtn2

hofburg said:


> ... and new waterfalls:
> 
> 
> waterfall par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


This is a motorway or a single two-way road ?


----------



## g.spinoza

It's motorway A23.


----------



## hofburg

g.spinoza said:


> A couple of videos from A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria works:
> 
> Don't mind the statement "ready in 2013", it's not realistic. 2016 is more like it, for stretches now u/c. 2025 is more realistic for the whole autostrada.


impressive! too bad for demolished viaducts. what is exactly the project on A3 south of Salerno?


----------



## Suburbanist

hofburg said:


> impressive! too bad for demolished viaducts. what is exactly the project on A3 south of Salerno?


They demolished to rebuilt them or work on realignments 

The project is complete reconstruction.

A3 was built more as an expressway in the mid-1960s till early 1970s. Sharp curves, claustrophobic tunnels, hazardous exit and entry ramps. 

A3 has more than 200 special works (viaducts, tunnels etc), including 4 of the highest 50 road bridges in the World. 

They wanted to build a highway to connect the south of Italy. There were two possibilities, going with a highway on either coast (following existing SS-routes) and a few trans-peninsular links.

However, for a variety of reasons (politics, development, connecting places left without any transportation), they decided to build a road through the mountains. That is why it crosses the Polino national park at altitude 1300m and changes from small watershed to even smaller watershed through mountains all the way to Scilla.

======

Fast forward mid 1990s, the route is deemed highly inadequate to modern standards, too many accidents etc. So they decide to rebuild the whole thing.

There are 6 major realignment sites, and 11 more (IIRC) "milder" straightening. 

High viaducts/bridges (Italia, Sfassalà and others) were too narrow, 2 narrower than usual lanes, with no room to spare. So they are rebuilding many of the decks, usually enlarging it (modern techniques mean a wider deck can still hold on oversized pillions of the 1960s)

When completed, A3 will the simply the most impressive highway in Europe in terms of mountain works. Sure enough, no long tunnel like in the Alps, but HUNDREDS of bridges, tunnels etc.

==============

Here is an example of things that were done there http://goo.gl/maps/LmHrR: google maps shows the old alignment (abandoned/under removal operation) and the new one (marked as actual route).


----------



## hofburg

^thanks


----------



## keber

I hope something will be done also for the A30-A3 connection, which doesn't have modern standards too.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> It would be interesting to know its AADT.


It would be interesting to know the AADT of all Italian motorways :cheers:


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Yes, the RA2 Avellino-Salerno is more similar to an expressway.
> 
> Does someone know the exact altitude of the highest point of the A3?


Here they say the highest point is 1017m (3336 ft) near Campotenese. The highest junction is the Campotenese, at 985m (3231 ft), as they say here.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> It would be interesting to know its AADT.


Quite low I guess. It's used mostly to reach Gorizia, since most of traffic between Venice and Ljubljana goes via Fernetti (it's faster).


----------



## -Pino-

But could that change over time? The route via the A34 is a bit shorter (two km, but still) and saves a bit of toll.


----------



## Attus

I always preferred the route through Gorizia from Ljlubljana to Italy (even when the Slovenian expressways hasn't been built yet) so I drove Raccordo Gorizia - Villesse several times. The original road must have been refurbished, however, I, too, can't see the reason for upgrading it to a full profile motorway.


----------



## italystf

-Pino- said:


> But could that change over time? The route via the A34 is a bit shorter (two km, but still) and saves a bit of toll.


Depends if there is a high speed trap risk on the H4, that has 110 speed limit.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Here they say the highest point is 1017m (3336 ft) near Campotenese. The highest junction is the Campotenese, at 985m (3231 ft), as they say here.


Thanks. I asked it because I read 1300 in some post and it seemed very unlikely to me.


----------



## x-type

about RA17 - lorries prefer the route H4 (SLO)-RA17 (I) instead of A3 (SLO)-A4 (I). reason? i don't know really.


----------



## Verso

spacetweek said:


> Unless they widen it then it is way below spec for a motorway. I can see it in Streetview, there is no way that is a real motorway.


That's an old photo, before they started with reconstruction.



Attus said:


> The original road must have been refurbished, however, I, too, can't see the reason for upgrading it to a full profile motorway.


I wouldn't mind, if it were built without shoulders, but it was too narrow and the speed limit was just 80 km/h.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> That's an old photo, before they started with reconstruction.
> 
> I wouldn't mind, if it were built without shoulders, but it was too narrow and the speed limit was just 80 km/h.


It was so narrow because it was initially a 4-lane single carriaggeway and the concrete median was added later without widening the road.


----------



## Verso

Yeah, I remember when it was a single carriageway.


----------



## -Pino-

x-type said:


> about RA17 - lorries prefer the route H4 (SLO)-RA17 (I) instead of A3 (SLO)-A4 (I). reason? i don't know really.


Guess because it saves a bit of toll, while lorries won't have the difference in vmax of remaining on the A4 to their advantage. 110 or 130 is irrelevant if you're a lorry...


----------



## italystf

-Pino- said:


> Guess because it saves a bit of toll, while lorries won't have the difference in vmax of remaining on the A4 to their advantage. 110 or 130 is irrelevant if you're a lorry...


And toll difference is bigger for lorries.

Some years ago there was an idea to remove Villesse and Lisert toll plazas and build a new one between Palmanova and Villesse. It would made the Villesse - Trieste section toll free.
It would have solved the congestion problems in Trieste Lisert toll booth, that has few gates and there is no space for widening.
However, since the new A34 includes a new, wider, toll plaza in Villesse, this project will never be completed. Maybe because Autovie Venete would have lost toll revenues.


----------



## Verso

-Pino- said:


> Guess because it saves a bit of toll


For cars yes, but I think it's slightly more expensive for trucks.


----------



## x-type

-Pino- said:


> Guess because it saves a bit of toll, while lorries won't have the difference in vmax of remaining on the A4 to their advantage. 110 or 130 is irrelevant if you're a lorry...


it doesn't save a toll. let's take route Ljubljana - Portogruaro (as the part of the most used route from Slovenia to Italy). H4-RA17-A4 combination costs 38,70€, A3-A4 combination costs 36,00€ :dunno:


----------



## hofburg

g.spinoza said:


> Today, 22nd November, at 18:00 (6pm) two small sections of new A34 (former RA17) are going to open. First section is the junction between current carriageway and the exit ramp "Sant'Andrea", for vehicles coming from Villesse towards Gorizia. Second section is autostrada proper in the same spot.
> 
> Lengths are not shown anywhere...


didn't see anything new today, except that expressway below Gorizia roundabout is phisicaly opened, but not finished. :dunno:



italystf said:


> Yes. On the Slovenian side will remain the substandard expressway.


expressway is standard, motorway from Sempeter - Selo is substandard.



Verso said:


> ^^ It only lacks hard shoulders. With that low traffic they can be happy they have a 4-lane motorway/expressway at all.





g.spinoza said:


> In fact I can't see the reason for widening the Italian side hno:


there's a reason: I need it! 



-Pino- said:


> But could that change over time? The route via the A34 is a bit shorter (two km, but still) and saves a bit of toll.


now, with the works going on, trucks via Gorizia instead of Fernetici are fewer. but Slovak registered trucks still prefer this route :dunno:


----------



## Puležan

x-type said:


> about RA17 - lorries prefer the route H4 (SLO)-RA17 (I) instead of A3 (SLO)-A4 (I). reason? i don't know really.


Because A4 (section from Trieste to Monfalcone) sometimes can be very congested (with big share of trucks), so drivers going from Slovenia to Italia prefer H4/RA17 to avoid traffic jams...
Anyway, what's going on with plans to widen A4 to 6 lanes up to Trieste?


----------



## hofburg

Puležan said:


> Because A4 (section from Trieste to Monfalcone) sometimes can be very congested (with big share of trucks), so drivers going from Slovenia to Italia prefer H4/RA17 to avoid traffic jams...
> Anyway, what's going on with plans to widen A4 to 6 lanes up to Trieste?


https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=...FTlwtwIdu228AA&mra=me&mrsp=1,0&sz=13&t=m&z=11

this section being widened


----------



## Puležan

hofburg said:


> https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=...FTlwtwIdu228AA&mra=me&mrsp=1,0&sz=13&t=m&z=11
> 
> this section being widened


Thanks 
So after that section, there's still another ~120 km to go... Hope works will resume as planned kay:


----------



## italystf

Pule&#158;an said:


> Thanks
> So after that section, there's still another ~120 km to go... Hope works will resume as planned kay:


Only till Villesse (A4-A34 junction) it will be widened.


----------



## zerro

Here you can see some fresh foto's from RA17  ---> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1022429&page=5

Now I think that 60% of transit goes via Fernetti, and around 40% goes via Vrtojba. But with brand new motorway Villesse-Gorizia, the percentage will change. I'm sure that trucks will prefer going via A34/H4. I'm also a truck driver, and I'm quite sure why will truckers prefer A34/H4... Because there is no overtaking ban for trucks.  

Italstf: Is there any map or plan, how would be Villesse junction widened?


----------



## hofburg

thanks for pics


----------



## keber

x-type said:


> it doesn't save a toll. let's take route Ljubljana - Portogruaro (as the part of the most used route from Slovenia to Italy). H4-RA17-A4 combination costs 38,70€, A3-A4 combination costs 36,00€ :dunno:


It costs less in fuel because of less kilometers and less ascents. Difference is small but enough for eastern European truck drivers.


----------



## zerro

Keber maybe you are right, but I have several times masured time between Villesse and Razdrto before roadworks on RA17. And everytime I have spend 5-7 minutes less via Vrtojba. But its true that via Fernetti the road is more comfortable. I have measured with truck, going around 90 km/h. For me going with truck from IT-SLO the only obstacle on road via Vrtojba is shity toll station Bazara, once I have spend 25 minutes waiting there.


----------



## italystf

zerro said:


> Keber maybe you are right, but I have several times masured time between Villesse and Razdrto before roadworks on RA17. And everytime I have spend 5-7 minutes less via Vrtojba. But its true that via Fernetti the road is more comfortable. I have measured with truck, going around 90 km/h. For me going with truck from IT-SLO the only obstacle on road via Vrtojba is shity toll station Bazara, once I have spend 25 minutes waiting there.


There is another truck-only toll booth on the A1 after the junction with A3 towards LJ.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> There is another truck-only toll booth on the A1 after the junction with A3 towards LJ.


it is called Dane. but it has some more capacity than Vrtojba.


----------



## zerro

italystf said:


> There is another truck-only toll booth on the A1 after the junction with A3 towards LJ.


No toll booth Dane is on A3 not on A1, and its just before exit Sežana-east in direction Italy.
And as x-type says its quite bigger than Bazara...
Dane have 2 or 3 truck lines for exit, and 1 or 2 for entering.
Bazara have 1 truck line for each direction.


----------



## Broccolli

Zerro i found some information page about toll booths on slo highways 


Link:http://www.promet.si/portal/sl/gorenjski-avtocestni-krak.aspx
Link:http://www.promet.si/portal/en/1traffic-conditions.aspx


----------



## zerro

Good job broccolli  your first link is showing us photos of both toll booths (Dane,Bazara). I found that page too, but you were faster than me


----------



## g.spinoza

According to Autostrade per l'Italia, 3rd lane on A14 between Rimini nord and Cattolica will be opened to traffic on December 24th, *14 months* ahead of schedule. The stretch is 26 km long, the major piece of engineering (Scacciano tunnel) has been already opened some months ago.


----------



## brick84

*Catania-Siracusa highway (Sicily)*










_by P. Minissale - Univ. Catania_


----------



## Perennial Quest

brick84 said:


> *Catania-Siracusa highway (Sicily)*
> 
> 
> http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd440/brick84/autostradaCatania-Siracusa.jpg
> _by P. Minissale - Univ. Catania_


What's that round yellow sign under the name and the length of the bridge?


----------



## F81

Perennial Quest said:


> What's that round yellow sign under the name and the length of the bridge?


Some military sign for bridges (for transport columns?) but I never understood them myself.


----------



## Perennial Quest

F81 said:


> Some military sign for bridges (for transport columns?) but I never understood them myself.


Military? Really? Now I'm even more curious! :lol:
Thank you anyway.


----------



## italystf

Perennial Quest said:


> Military? Really? Now I'm even more curious! :lol:
> Thank you anyway.


Cannot see what's written inside but I read somewhere that they indicate the max weight that a bridge can stand in case of transit of a military convoy.
I never expected they put them on a modern bridge, I though it was just a post WWII thing. The only one I know is on a bridge built in 1947 (the SS14 bridge over Stella river in Palazzolo, province of Udine).


----------



## italystf

I found on the net this very ambition plan from 1988: a completely underground motorway connecting the exit of Prosecco with Trieste seaport, with many exits (in yellow) to reach different points of the city. In 2003 the cost was estimated in 1,5 *billions* €. Needless to say that it will never be built, it sounds similar to the Ancona - Zadar bridge 










This would be the only visible (i.e. non underground) parts:









more details: http://www.dic.univ.trieste.it/presenta_nord/Presenta_Nord.htm

Fortunately, since 2008, there is already a motorway\expressway route (RA13+SS202) between Prosecco and Trieste port, although longer and external to the city.


----------



## hofburg

wow


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Cannot see what's written inside but I read somewhere that they indicate the max weight that a bridge can stand in case of transit of a military convoy.
> I never expected they put them on a modern bridge, I though it was just a post WWII thing. The only one I know is on a bridge built in 1947 (the SS14 bridge over Stella river in Palazzolo, province of Udine).


Those signs are quite common in Germany... I never saw one in Italy.


----------



## Alien x

italystf said:


> Cannot see what's written inside but I read somewhere that they indicate the max weight that a bridge can stand in case of transit of a military convoy.


Is it maybe near the US military base?


----------



## italystf

Alien x said:


> Is it maybe near the US military base?


Yes, the (in)famous Sigonella air base.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A8 near Milano also has a nice view.


A8 Italia by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## -Pino-

^^ It's about once every month, but given the right weather, it is a joy to leave town via the A8. Nice photo, by the way. When I lived in Milan, I've never managed to shoot this good a photo of the A8 and the mountains ... :cheer:

The most distant mountain view that you can get in Italy, at least as far as I know, is on the A15. Driving into Parma, you can see the snow on the Alps on the other side of the Pianura. All on nice days only, of course.


----------



## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> Driving into Parma, you can see the snow on the Alps on the other side of the Pianura. All on nice days only, of course.


On Italian wikipedia there's a composite pic of the Alps as seen from Loiano Observatory, in the Apennines watershed near Bologna, more than 250 km away:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/AlpsLargestPicture.jpg

PS: I used to work for that observatory, but I didn't take the pic.


----------



## Verso

http://goo.gl/maps/08RGn

par*c*king


----------



## g.spinoza

Works for Autostrada Nogara-Mare (linking A22, future A31, A13 and future Nuova Romea) are tendered to "Confederazione autostrade del Nord", a group of companies referring to Attilio Schneck and "Autostrada Brescia Verona Vicenza Padova S.p.A.". They can probably start at the end of 2013.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Works for Autostrada Nogara-Mare (linking A22, future A31, A13 and future Nuova Romea) are tendered to "Confederazione autostrade del Nord", a group of companies referring to Attilio Schneck and "Autostrada Brescia Verona Vicenza Padova S.p.A.". They can probably start at the end of 2013.


The section Legnago - Rovigo is already open as SS434 (110kph expressway).
I really doubt that the yellow Brescia - Mestre expressway parallel to A4 (Sistema Tangenziali Venete) will ever be built, since is useless. It would be better to enlarge the A4 from 6 to 8 or even 10 lanes, even if traffic on A4 will decrease when the Pedemontana Veneta (Vicenza - Conegliano) and the Pedemontana Friulana (Pordenone - Gemona) will be ready (unfortunately the last one will remain on the paper for many years).

I think the most urgent projects for the north-east are a motorway from Mestre to Ravenna (the SS309 is always crowded and there are many accidents) and the completation of the A31 Vicenza - Trento.
But both won't be reality in less than 20 years.


----------



## Verso

http://goo.gl/maps/nmIHU

How did that tractor get there? I bet it used the expressway. :bash:


----------



## g.spinoza

I think that under the overpass there is room to escape.


----------



## Mauz®

Today's view of the Alps from A8... :cheers:
I'm sorry for the quality: the pic was taken with a mobile phone. hno:


----------



## Mauz®

I noticed now that they lost further quality while uploading...hno:


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> http://goo.gl/maps/nmIHU
> 
> How did that tractor get there? I bet it used the expressway. :bash:


Very intriguing, there aren't other choises. I think it's a very complicated issue under the legal point of view, because on one side they have to let the landowner to access his propertry, but on the other, private accesses of any kind are illegal on limited-access highways.
Autovie Venete could have solved this problem by expropriating this piece of land.
Or maybe the tractor belong to Autovie Venete and they are planting new vegetation in what it will be the new junction (so the land is already their).

In this case, they built a private underpass to allow the owner to access his field (and it's not even an expressway, tractors can drive on it).


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> I think that under the overpass there is room to escape.


Look carefully: even if you cross the underpass you'll get into another lot of land that is completely surrounded by the expressway and the ramp.


----------



## xrtn2

Guys please answer me

Is these italian highways tolled ? Thanks.


----------



## g.spinoza

xrtn2 said:


> Guys please answer me
> 
> Is these italian highways tolled ? Thanks.


Which ones?


----------



## italystf

Most, but not all motorways (Ax only routes, green signs) are tolled, other highways aren't.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Very intriguing, there aren't other choises. I think it's a very complicated issue under the legal point of view, because on one side they have to let the landowner to access his propertry, but on the other, private accesses of any kind are illegal on limited-access highways.
> Autovie Venete could have solved this problem by expropriating this piece of land.
> Or maybe the tractor belong to Autovie Venete and they are planting new vegetation in what it will be the new junction (so the land is already their).
> 
> In this case, they built a private underpass to allow the owner to access his field (and it's not even an expressway, tractors can drive on it).


I hope the land is already theirs, otherwise that tractor will have to use the future A34 motorway. :nuts: Ok, if it goes towards the border crossing, it isn't such a problem, because the speed limit there is 50 km/h anyway, but between Gradisca and this roundabout it's 80 km/h (and 130 km/h in the future). Unless it crossed the road here. 

Yeah, they were probably planting new vegetation (October 2010), because there was just high grass there one month earlier (September 2010), not a field or something like that.


----------



## hofburg

Mauz® said:


> I noticed now that they lost further quality while uploading...hno:


thanks for sharing. just make photos smaller and it should look better.


----------



## Mauz®

I was sure to have resized them, but I was evidently wrong!


----------



## legolego

keber said:


> There is also very impressive view of Monte Viso on large part A4 between Milano and Torino. It looks like great volcano behind Torino. If you're lucky with clear winter weather (in my case just 1 in 5 trips).












View from Tangenziale di Torino. The highest peak is the "Monviso" (About 3.800 meters high)


----------



## hofburg

nice! 3800m looks really high.


----------



## g.spinoza

3rd lane works for Autostrada del Brennero (A22) between Modena and Verona have been approved and financed. They are going to begin in 2014.
http://www.lestradedellinformazione.it/acm-on-line/Home/documento2523.html


----------



## Road_UK

That's funny. I have always found the stretch between Verona and Trento busier.


----------



## hofburg

of course it's much easier to stick the 3rd lane Modena-Verona than Verona-Trento.


----------



## Road_UK

Of course, but every time I join the A22 from the A1, I always get this relieved feeling over me to be rid of that busy lane hogging traffic.


----------



## Suburbanist

I think they could push a project to make A22 double-decked between Trento and Verona. There is barely any space for widening, but double-decking would be an interesting (and fun to drive on) solution. They could even make a second 2x2 upper deck meant for light vehicles only.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK's right, Verona-Modena is not the busiest stretch, but for sure is the easiest to enlarge, since there is already space for the 3rd lane in the grassy median. However, the 1+ km long viaduct over river Po has to be torn down and replaced, while the somewhat shorter viaduct over Fissero-Tartaro will be just enlarged in situ.

As for suburbanist's proposal, I think costs will be just... astronomical, and I don't think it can be seriously taken into consideration.


----------



## g.spinoza

Besides, most of the congestion between Trento and Verona is due to Affi junction, where people coming from North and heading West onto A4 exit the motorway, pay the toll, and enter superstrada SS 450 towards Peschiera del Garda through two absurd roundabouts.
The only thing to do here is transform SS 450 into a motorway leg, directly connected to A22 and A4 (much like Fiorenzuola A21 leg, once a superstrada, now connects directly A21 and A1). There were plans to do so almost a decade ago, but the projects was attached to a northward extension of SS 450 until Pai, with a tunnel under Monte Baldo and - guess what - environmentalists blocked everything.


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> However, the 1+ km long viaduct over river Po has to be torn down and replaced, while the somewhat shorter viaduct over Fissero-Tartaro will be just enlarged in situ.


I think they can close the 3rd lane before the viaduct and add it back on after without too much risk of congestion. There are more motorways in Italy and the rest of Europe with this kind of setup.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> I think they can close the 3rd lane before the viaduct and add it back on after without too much risk of congestion. There are more motorways in Italy and the rest of Europe with this kind of setup.


Are you sure? I know of viaducts with no shoulder, but I've never seen a 3-lane road going 2-lane on a viaduct and 3-lane again after that. This kind of configuration will result in a major bottleneck (just like 3rd lane ends just before Rimini on A14, creating long queues..)


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> However, the 1+ km long viaduct over river Po has to be torn down and replaced


Why not build a new, narrow, viaduct next to the existing one and use the old one for a direction and the new one for the other?
They should do the same with the viaduct over Tagliamento on A4 (that will be turned from 2+2 no shoulders from 3+3 with shoulders).


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> I think they can close the 3rd lane before the viaduct and add it back on after without too much risk of congestion. There are more motorways in Italy and the rest of Europe with this kind of setup.


It's also dangerous and would need lower speed limits where the 3rd lane ends.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Why not build a new, narrow, viaduct next to the existing one and use the old one for a direction and the new one for the other?
> They should do the same with the viaduct over Tagliamento on A4 (that will be turned from 2+2 no shoulders from 3+3 with shoulders).


I don't know, I'm not an engineer. Maybe they calculated that old pylons could not withstand the added weight.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> I don't know, I'm not an engineer. Maybe they calculated that old pylons could not withstand the added weight.


Why? If it currently can carry 4 lanes (2+2) why it won't be able to carry only 3 lanes (in the same direction) in the future?


----------



## g.spinoza

Yes but the actual viaducts are two, and they are apart: to make them function as one, the gap between them must be filled. Maybe, for some reasons I don't know, they can't do that.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Yes but the actual viaducts are two, and they are apart: to make them function as one, the gap between them must be filled. Maybe, for some reasons I don't know, they can't do that.


Sorry, I forgot that the two carriaggeways aren't contiguous there. It's a long time since I drove there the last time.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Sorry, I forgot that the two carriaggeways aren't contiguous there. It's a long time since I drove there the last time.


They're not that far: 

http://goo.gl/maps/q8jvA

but again, maybe there are engineering problems I don't know.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This particular section of A22 opened in 1971, so I assume the bridge is somewhat better designed than 1960s bridges (a major issue in Germany currently). The shoulder on the bridge appears to be a tad too narrow to be used as a third lane. 

It's not impossible to joint bridges together and use it with 3 lanes one way. Another less common option is to separate the carriageway and use a 2+1 setup in one direction, though this is generally not preferred. There are two locations in the Netherlands where this occurs.

Unfortunately there is no traffic data of Italian motorways, so it's hard to judge what not widening these bridges would mean to traffic flow.


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## g.spinoza

Aiscat has some data:
http://www.aiscat.it/pubblicazioni/downloads/ trim3-4_2011.pdf

(Although I don't know how to read them  )


----------



## ArtZ

legolego said:


> View from Tangenziale di Torino. The highest peak is the "Monviso" (About 3.800 meters high)


^^Excellent view. I really like it!:cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> Aiscat has some data:
> http://www.aiscat.it/pubblicazioni/downloads/ trim3-4_2011.pdf


That is what many toll road operators publish, the amount of trips within a given range (for example 290.000 trips on a 200 kilometer stretch of road).

Unfortunately such data is useless to judge whether a road has adequate capacity or not. You need more detailed data for that, preferrably the number of vehicles between every single exit. 

If I had to guess the traffic volumes for individual sections of the A22, I'd say it's within the 50.000 - 70.000 range. If it's 50.000, a 2x2 bridge won't create traffic congestion, but if it's 70.000 with some growth, it will reach capacity pretty soon. Additionally, the truck share is also an important factor, and summer volumes are also pretty important because seasonal variation is more pronounced in southern Europe and Scandinavia than in central/northwestern Europe.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> That is what many toll road operators publish, the amount of trips within a given range (for example 290.000 trips on a 200 kilometer stretch of road).
> 
> Unfortunately such data is useless to judge whether a road has adequate capacity or not. You need more detailed data for that, preferrably the number of vehicles between every single exit.


That's what I suspected as well. It's a shame.



> If I had to guess the traffic volumes for individual sections of the A22, I'd say it's within the 50.000 - 70.000 range. If it's 50.000, a 2x2 bridge won't create traffic congestion, but if it's 70.000 with some growth, it will reach capacity pretty soon. Additionally, the truck share is also an important factor, and summer volumes are also pretty important because seasonal variation is more pronounced in southern Europe and Scandinavia than in central/northwestern Europe.



A technical question about capacity and congestion: you are talking about 2 lane brigde vs 3 lane bridge, as if they stand on their own. I think the issue should be more about the carriageway narrowing (going from 3 to 2) than the capacity tout court. I mean people drive differently on a 2-laned stretch of motorway or on a 3-laned-turning-2-laned stretch. It's there where the problems arise (people merging at the last second, and so on).

Is this correct or am I missing something?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The impact of driver's behavior varies by country, but is often exaggerated in people's perception, studies have shown that it affects highway capacity in the order of a few percent. However, a reduction from 3 to 2 lanes means there is 30% less capacity. That is the main factor.


----------



## dreaad

legolego said:


> View from Tangenziale di Torino. The highest peak is the "Monviso" (About 3.800 meters high)


3841 m to be precise. very nice!


----------



## Suburbanist

One alternative would be using the two (structurally) existing bridges in one direction and building a new bridge in the other.



> Besides, most of the congestion between Trento and Verona is due to Affi junction, where people coming from North and heading West onto A4 exit the motorway, pay the toll, and enter superstrada SS 450 towards Peschiera del Garda through two absurd roundabouts.


When there were queues for the toll station there, I used just to go on A22 and drive the extra kms.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> When there were queues for the toll station there, I used just to go on A22 and drive the extra kms.


I did that too, but in the summer it's not unusual to see the queue at the toll station arriving well into the first motorway lane.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Sorry, I forgot that the two carriaggeways aren't contiguous there. It's a long time since I drove there the last time.


Lol, isn't that your only motorway to the rest of Italy?


----------



## Suburbanist

Verso said:


> Lol, isn't that your only motorway to the rest of Italy?


Not at that place. There are A13 and A21 nearby


----------



## Verso

Oops, I thought he was talking about A4 over Tagliamento.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Oops, I thought he was talking about A4 over Tagliamento.


I was saying that it's a long time I don't drive on the A22 Verona - Modena.


----------



## Verso

I've never driven there, so I understand you.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> I've never driven there, so I understand you.


We need to cross this bridge only if our destination is somewhere between Mantova and Modena (I went few times to meet friends in Guastalla).
If we want to go south or even just to Modena or Reggio Emilia A14-A13-A1 is shorter.


----------



## g.spinoza

Today in Monza, near Milan, ANAS opened its worksite for the public to see the works of SS36 tunnel, which is going to be the (one of the) longest urban tunnels in Europe (1,8km in length). Open is scheduled for March 2013.

Two-tube tunnel will have 3 lanes per direction plus a narrow (90 cm) shoulder, and is going to receive 100k vehicles per day. Current stretch above ground will be used for local traffic only.

Some pictures here:
http://www.lestradedellinformazione...fiche/galleriaFotografica.2138.98.1.10.1.html


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ What do you mean by one of the longest urban tunnels in Europe?


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What do you mean by one of the longest urban tunnels in Europe?


Er, I mean it's a tunnel, in an urban (non-motorway) context, and - at least quoting the ANAS press release, is going to be one of the longest in Europe.

What's confusing?


----------



## Coccodrillo

They forgot the Giovanni XXIII (2,9 km), Södra länken (4,7 km), the Big Dig (5,6 km), the A86 Duplex tunnels and many others (the M30 in Madrid, the Dublin Port Tunnel, ...).

[email protected]: the Big Dig is clearly not in Europe...


----------



## italystf

Coccodrillo said:


> They forgot the Giovanni XXIII (2,9 km), Södra länken (4,7 km), the Big Dig (5,6 km), the A86 Duplex tunnels and many others (the M30 in Madrid, the Dublin Port Tunnel, ...).


Big dig in Europe?


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> the A86 Duplex tunnels and many others (the M30 in Madrid, the Dublin Port Tunnel, ...).
> 
> [email protected]: the Big Dig is clearly not in Europe...


Duplex A86 is clearly not urban but motorway. And I said (one of the) longest . They also forgot the 2.7km tunnel under Lecco, on the same road (SS36).


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Okay. Maybe we just have different definitions of urban tunnels, A86 is an urban tunnel for me, for instance.

In any case, that is a nice project. Now if they only build more tunnels in Milano to speed up city traffic :cheers:


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Okay. Maybe we just have different definitions of urban tunnels, A86 is an urban tunnel for me, for instance.


 It seems that ANAS likes to brag even when it hasn't the right to do so 



> In any case, that is a nice project. Now if they only build more tunnels in Milano to speed up city traffic :cheers:


Yes, urban tunnels are nice and useful but don't think that Milan's going that way. In fact this tunnel is outside Milan, in a long-distance road (Milano-Lecco and beyond).


----------



## keber

Bridge over Po river on A22 looks OK, but as seen from Google Streetview
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45....=uy2akhvj9yoRjOzzuEI0BA&cbp=12,227.76,,0,8.18
it is hard to widen it for a reasonable price because of construction technique that was used widely at that time. As it is over 40 years old and a capital object with design flaws, it is better to demolish it and construct completely new one.
If the bridge won't be some architectural extravaganza (shouldn't be in the middle of fields but you never know) then it also won't be expensive.


----------



## Suburbanist

The Pistoia racc. is missing as well.


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## italystf

More expressways in North East Italy:
East Padova bypass 12km
North Padova bypass 7,7km
West Padova bypass 12km
South Padova bypass 3km
SP47 Limena bypass 6,7km
East Verona bypass 5,3km
North Verona bypass 9,3km
South Verona bypass 16,5km
South Vicenza bypass 7,2km
SR53 South Treviso bypass 9km
SS676 South Udine bypass 6,3km
RA16 East Pordenone bypass 3,8km
NSA56 Sistiana - A4 1km
NSA326 Trieste - SLO 4,6km (SS15 refers to the old road, not the expressway)


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## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> A1 - Perugia is included in the E45 mileage.


What? E45 passes by Perugia but in N-S direction (SS3 bis Ravenna -Orte). RA6 is a different road.


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## ChrisZwolle

I see. I included that in SS326 (Siena - Perugia 101 km)


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## italystf

SS47 Trento - Bassano del Grappa is partly expressway and partly 1+1. Good luck to calculate the lenght of expressway segments.


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## italystf

SR450 (A4-A22 missing link) 13,3km
SS80racc (A14-A24 missing link) 15,8km


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## Coccodrillo

The SS 629 / SP 54 is dual carriageway, but with flat junctions, although less than if it were a normal road:

http://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Laveno...-mombello,+Varese,+Lombardia,+Italia&t=k&z=18

I don't know how to consider it, as it has some expressway/superstrada characteristics...Google draws it as a normal main road (in yellow).


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## italystf

If it has at-grade junction, it shouldn't be counted.
For this purpose I like Openstreetmaps, it's very updated and expressways are signed differently.


----------



## Verso

Do the Trieste and Genova elevated expressways count?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I updated the list. I got to 2753 kilometers now.



Verso said:


> Do the Trieste and Genova elevated expressways count?


While they are grade-separated and at least 2x2, their speed limit is very low (60 km/h) and if I understand correctly mopeds are allowed as well. I think I leave those out.


----------



## g.spinoza

SS76 has another superstrada section, although Google maps don't render it as such. It's the 13 km section between Borgo Tufico and Cancelli di Fabriano. At the end of 2015 the whole 74 km SS 76 will be upgraded to superstrada.

http://goo.gl/maps/pk8JL

SS 3 Flaminia has also some superstrada sections: Foligno-Spoleto and Acqualagna-E78.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> If it has at-grade junction, it shouldn't be counted.
> For this purpose I like Openstreetmaps, it's very updated and expressways are signed differently.


Yes but OSM is sometimes wrong. SS 510 Sebina Orientale is shown as superstrada but it's actually not.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> I updated the list. I got to 2753 kilometers now.
> 
> While they are grade-separated and at least 2x2, their speed limit is very low (60 km/h) and if I understand correctly mopeds are allowed as well. I think I leave those out.


Trieste sopraelevata has a limit of 80 and it's a real expressway. Mopeds aren't allowed. I think it should be included.

EDIT: mopeds aren't allowed in Genoa sopraelevata too.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Yes but OSM is sometimes wrong. SS 510 Sebina Orientale is shown as superstrada but it's actually not.


Fortunately our countries is entirely covered by street view, so determining if a road is an expressway or not isn't so difficult.


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## Suburbanist

There is also the Tangenziale di Reggio Calabria.


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## italystf

You forgot Sicily:
- Catania - Paterno'
- Asse attrezzato Catania
- Augusta - Siracusa (de facto A18 motorway)
- A20 - Milazzo
- Palermo beltway (A19 - A29)
- parts of the future Caltanissetta - Agrigento expressway are already opened


----------



## Renzokuken

As for Puglia, the following must be mentioned as well:

SS 16 Bari Tangenziale (3+3 lanes)
SS 16 Bari - Fasano (even though the segment Bari - Torre A Mare is really an urban 4 lane road with 70 km/h limit)
SS 379 Fasano - Brindisi
SS 664 Copertino - Maglie (limited to 90 km/h)
SS 274 Gallipoli - Taviano (limited to 90 km/h)

EDIT: forgot about the Lecce expressway ring, SS 694 or NSA 71 (even if half of it is not managed by the ANAS)


----------



## hofburg

press the left arrow 

https://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=R...d=qEd1fiHpoIT_PJLYSm7B7A&cbp=12,40.68,,0,7.05


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## italystf

SS16 has some expressway sections:
Ravenna bypass
Cesenatico - Rimini
Pescara bypass 14km

In Abruzzo there's RA12 Chieti - Pescara 14,8km

Molise: SS85var Venafro bypass 8,7km. Only existing part of the planned Termoli - San Vittore motorway.


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## hofburg

that an interesting expressway  it could go to abandoned roads thread 

https://maps.google.si/maps?q=SS16&...d=1GwYOCF2CzUvu-k4806v2w&cbp=12,335.7,,0,4.02


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## x-type

really 80. but next one has 50.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Maybe they should put a traffic light there


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## italystf

Where else in the world you can see three 2-lanes roads next each other?
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=via+de...6133&hnear=Via+del+Mare,+Roma,+Lazio&t=h&z=18
- Viale dei Romagnoli
- Via del Mare (SS8)
- Via Ostiense (SS8bis)

The "Via del Mare" opened as 2-lane "autostrada" in 1928. It was reclassificated in the 60s as SS8 (previously this number was referred to the "Via Ostiense" that was later renumbered SS8bis).
The "Via del Mare" is the only road in Italy that can be used only by cars. Not trucks, buses, motorcycles, moped, bycicles and pedestrians.


----------



## italystf

Private driveways on the expressway SS16\E55 between Bari and Mola di Bari:
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=bari&h...ktZWKHjZ8gCs1d4MxPGqyA&cbp=12,301.71,,0,-0.73
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=bari&h...d=XvQJGAel-rFjHM_mlltF1g&cbp=12,292.03,,0,4.2
I wonder if their residents can access their houses by foot\bicycle\moped\tractor.

Small roads connected with other roads than the expressway are closed.
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=bari&h...id=WAxLN-c0Xs3eg3_xlO2XlQ&cbp=12,1.19,,0,8.95
BTW, I never seen a street name sprayed on the wall. 
And off course, litter is never missing there 

That's the best: a pedestrian gate on the freeway! 
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=bari&h...=FFY--eXM8Ug6P8kaJxattw&cbp=12,28.06,,0,19.74

This section of "expressway" has a posted speed limit of 50. However, a white sign with "zona abitata 50" doesn't exist in our highway code so you can legally refuse a fine 
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=bari&hl=it&ll=41.089443,16.976881&spn=0.016852,0.042272&sll=41.29085,12.71216&sspn=17.186713,43.286133&hnear=Bari,+Puglia&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=41.089414,16.977001&panoid=29VLwMG7Dluv9jpCvWCkLw&cbp=12,290.33,,1,1.87


----------



## Verso

^^ "50" is in a circle, like speed limit signs, but it's poorly visible. Anyway, that road doesn't seem to be a superstrada.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> ^^ "50" is in a circle, like speed limit signs, but it's poorly visible. Anyway, that road doesn't seem to be a superstrada.


No, if you remove those private driveways (that exist only in the Bari - Mola section), you'll have a real SS16 superstrada all the way from Foggia to Brindisi (and, with other numbers, further south to Lecce and Maglie).


----------



## hofburg

seems like that road was normal 1x1 before and just recently got upgraded?


----------



## WalkTheWorld

g.spinoza said:


> Yes but OSM is sometimes wrong. SS 510 Sebina Orientale is shown as superstrada but it's actually not.


True, but it's impressive nevertheless. Grade separated junctions. 90 km/h (70/90 in tunnels) lots of bridges and tunnels, with the newest section boasting a 5+ km long one. But it's 1+1, built on seriously rugged terrain.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Agreed, but that's not the point. It's not a superstrada.

Besides, there is no single 5+ km tunnel on that road. Pisogne bypass is made up of two 2.5km tunnels with a brief open space in between.


----------



## italystf

hofburg said:


> seems like that road was normal 1x1 before and just recently got upgraded?


The whole SS16 from Padova to Otranto was a normal 1x1. In many places it was later built with expressway standards. Those new sections may be in "variante" (the new highway follows a different allignment than the old road, that is downgraded to provincial or municipal road) or may being built directly duplicating the old road. In this case, usually, side service roads ("complanari") are being built to be used to access propertries located on the side of the highway. In that case the "complanare" wasn't build, maybe because there's no room or because in the past they didn't care.
However, the SS16 Foggia - Brindisi is entirely divided and grade-separated (unlikely the Sardinian Y it hasn't U-turns and at-grade junctions).


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Agreed, but that's not the point. It's not a superstrada.
> 
> Besides, there is no single 5+ km tunnel on that road. Pisogne bypass is made up of two 2.5km tunnels with a brief open space in between.


1+1 roads that are completely grade-separated are informally called "superstrade" even if they aren't. Wikipedia lists them as "superstrade a carreggiata singola". In Austria and Switzerland some such roads are classificated as Schnellstrassen.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> 1+1 roads that are completely grade-separated are informally called "superstrade" even if they aren't. Wikipedia lists them as "superstrade a carreggiata singola". In Austria and Switzerland some such roads are classificated as Schnellstrassen.


I usually find 1+1 grade-separated roads associated with the acronym "SSV" (Strada a Scorrimento Veloce).


----------



## Suburbanist

Italy has quite an impressive network of 1+1 high-performance expressways (grade-separated, no roadside access, gentle grades and curves), especially in the regions of Molise, Basilicata and Sicilia. They can be a bliss to drive when traffic is not heavy. My favorite among them is the rather short but amazing SS 682 (Siderno-Rosarno sector)


----------



## g.spinoza

I don't like 1+1 expressways. SS 690 Sora-Avezzano is a nightmare to drive when stuck behind a truck. People tend to think they're on a 4-lane expressway and overtake recklessly.


----------



## italystf

I remember travelling in 2006 on the recently-opened SS693 del Gargano, that was signed as SSV even on km signs.
In NE Italy I know the SR177 A28-Sequals and the SS52 A23-Tolmezzo.


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> I don't like 1+1 expressways. SS 690 Sora-Avezzano is a nightmare to drive when stuck behind a truck. People tend to think they're on a 4-lane expressway and overtake recklessly.


MAybe they should put some bollards (plastic) or a small raised median to prevent vehicles from overtaking.

Of course a 2+2 or even 2+1 expressway is better, but I was comparing the 1+1 expressways of Italy with their alternatives (usually local roads with hundreds of curves).


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> MAybe they should put some bollards (plastic) or a small raised median to prevent vehicles from overtaking.


Divided 1+1 road? So if you have a very slow truck in front of you, you have no other choise than staying all the way behind him! They should allow overtaking in straight sections with good visibility.

Are there some sections of 2+1 roads in Italy? I cannot find any (apart few hundred meters near intersections, off course).


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Divided 1+1 road? So if you have a very slow truck in front of you, you have no other choise than staying all the way behind him! They should allow overtaking in straight sections with good visibility.


I agree with Suburbanist. Bollards would be put only in no-overtake zones, where currently is the continuous line.



> Are there some sections of 2+1 roads in Italy? I cannot find any (apart few hundred meters near intersections, off course).


Only one that I know of is SS16 adriatica from intersection with SS76 southbound, but only for few hundred meters due to high slope.


----------



## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> Divided 1+1 road? So if you have a very slow truck in front of you, you have no other choise than staying all the way behind him! They should allow overtaking in straight sections with good visibility.


I'm suggesting putting bollards on sections that do not allow overtaking.

Some 1+1 expressways are wide enough to even accommodate a median barrier.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> I'm suggesting putting bollards on sections that do not allow overtaking.
> 
> Some 1+1 expressways are wide enough to even accommodate a median barrier.


Some sections of 1+1 expressway SS 156 Frosinone-Priverno have such median barriers.


----------



## Suburbanist

I have never driven there, just on SS214 once at night.


----------



## italystf

Sorry, I misunderstood. I though Suburbanist was talking to put bollards on the entire lenght. On the non-overtaking sections (in curves and near junctions) is right.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ (misunderstood)


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> I don't like 1+1 expressways. SS 690 Sora-Avezzano is a nightmare to drive when stuck behind a truck. People tend to think they're on a 4-lane expressway and overtake recklessly.


yeah, I drove that road and i agree. 

i also drove on SS76/SS3 Serra San Quirico - Fossato di Vico - Foligno. probably the same problem if there are lorries on the road (when i drove there, the lorry traffic was banned so it was wonderful drive)


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> yeah, I drove that road and i agree.
> 
> i also drove on SS76/SS3 Serra San Quirico - Fossato di Vico - Foligno. probably the same problem if there are lorries on the road (when i drove there, the lorry traffic was banned so it was wonderful drive)


SS76 Serra San Quirico-Fossato will be a full 2x2 expressway in 2015. Works are ongoing now, major piece of engineering being the northbound "Gola della Rossa" tunnel, 3.7 km in length.

SS3 Fossato-Foligno is a 1+1 expressway (except for the initial stretch which is under construction, linking to SS 318 which is a 2x2 expressway) and has horrible asphalt


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ (misunderstood)


Fixed


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> SS76 Serra San Quirico-Fossato will be a full 2x2 expressway in 2015. Works are ongoing now, major piece of engineering being the northbound "Gola della Rossa" tunnel, 3.7 km in length.
> 
> SS3 Fossato-Foligno is a 1+1 expressway (except for the initial stretch which is under construction, linking to SS 318 which is a 2x2 expressway) and has horrible asphalt


i was there in 2008. SS76 was already being widened to 2+2 (Fabriano bypass).
SS3 was in so-so condition. average quality. probably it has not been maintained since that time. i remember bad and bumpy dilatations on viaducts (and there are few quite long viaducts). for instance, the quality of that road was waaaay better than E45 Perugia - Terni, which was disaster.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Agreed, but that's not the point. It's not a superstrada.
> 
> Besides, there is no single 5+ km tunnel on that road. Pisogne bypass is made up of two 2.5km tunnels with a brief open space in between.


Just finished. Opening soon. It's the Sellero tunnel. 


http://www.mi-lorenteggio.com/news/21801


----------



## g.spinoza

WalkTheWorld said:


> Just finished. Opening soon. It's the Sellero tunnel.
> 
> 
> http://www.mi-lorenteggio.com/news/21801


This is SS 42 del Tonale, not SS 510 Sebina Orientale. Sellero tunnel is 35 km beyond the end of SS 510.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

g.spinoza said:


> This is SS 42 del Tonale, not SS 510 Sebina Orientale. Sellero tunnel is 35 km beyond the end of SS 510.


Oops. Same thing to me. It's the road to mt roots. Plus, if i am not wrong, it was originally planned as SS42bis, but that could be wrong...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Apparently you need to be escorted by police officers in Genova.

Street View in old town Genova


----------



## Sunfuns

ChrisZwolle said:


> Apparently you need to be escorted by police officers in Genova.
> 
> Street View in old town Genova


You mean because it's particularly easy to get lost? It is if you need to find an exact place in the old town, otherwise it's easy - uphill or downhill :lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

That are is outright blighted and unhealthy, and should have no permanent population (to save the buildings) OR should be demolished and rebuilt (to save its inhabited character). I'd keep a handful of blocks (20% of the area) as an open air museum and tear down the rest to replace it with modern buildings.


----------



## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> That are is outright blighted and unhealthy, and should have no permanent population (to save the buildings) OR should be demolished and rebuilt (to save its inhabited character). I'd keep a handful of blocks (20% of the area) as an open air museum and tear down the rest to replace it with modern buildings.


That would be an architectural crime! I've been there and it's not an outright bad area. In fact the medieval quarter is interesting exactly because it's inhabited with real people instead of being an open air museum. Some cities have made a mistake of this sort...


----------



## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> That would be an architectural crime! I've been there and it's not an outright bad area. In fact the medieval quarter is interesting exactly because it's inhabited with real people instead of being an open air museum. Some cities have made a mistake of this sort...


But those buildings are a disaster waiting to happen. The alleys are too narrow to allow firefighter trucks, the buildings are not fit with access for disabled people, there is virtually no direct sunlight reaching the lowest 2 floors etc.

So it is a situation far worse than almost any other quaint/old quarter in a walled or former walled perimeter.

They could demolish part of the thing, build higher building to accommodate the displaced population, and then leave the rest empty as an open-air museum.

Believe me, the place is bad. It can't be even gentrified because you can't make such think look good. So the demographics of the are also not the better (it is not a dangerous place, but it has a huge concentration of people with no education and no jobs, for instance)

One alternative would be to demolish every other block and making them into parks/grass area. That way, you save half of all buildings (actually a little more, give them airy views, and demolish the other half, making the area like a chess board.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Apparently you need to be escorted by police officers in Genova.
> 
> Street View in old town Genova


They probably use bicycles to map those alleys. Police escort them for safety reason and to keep away passer-by.



Suburbanist said:


> But those buildings are a disaster waiting to happen. The alleys are too narrow to allow firefighter trucks, the buildings are not fit with access for disabled people, there is virtually no direct sunlight reaching the lowest 2 floors etc.
> 
> So it is a situation far worse than almost any other quaint/old quarter in a walled or former walled perimeter.
> 
> They could demolish part of the thing, build higher building to accommodate the displaced population, and then leave the rest empty as an open-air museum.
> 
> Believe me, the place is bad. It can't be even gentrified because you can't make such think look good. So the demographics of the are also not the better (it is not a dangerous place, but it has a huge concentration of people with no education and no jobs, for instance)
> 
> One alternative would be to demolish every other block and making them into parks/grass area. That way, you save half of all buildings (actually a little more, give them airy views, and demolish the other half, making the area like a chess board.


They don't need to demolish them, I agree it would be an architectural crime. They should only use them for their best possible use. Lower floors are more suitable for shops, pubs, offices, sites of associations,... Upper floors, that are better liveable because they receive more sunlight can be use for housing purpouses. Not only for low-income permanent residences but also to accomodate short-term visitors (b&b and apartments to rent) or for student dormitories (most students don't own a car where they live, don't need a big house, aren't willing to pay high rents and prefer staying in the dowtown where there are more opportunities for social life and everything they need is located within walking distance).

Also Venice may be unhealty and bad to live: high humidity, old buildings, inaccessibility by fire trucks and emergency helicopters, inaccessibility to disables, old-fashionated sewage system,... Are you advocating that 60k Venetians should be relocated to the mainland (very healty, especially near Marghera oil plant or in highrises facing directly the A57 ) and the city be preserved as a sterile open-air museum? Or maybe you want to close the Venetian lagoon with 3 dams and dry it entirely, building roads instead of canals and some brutalist-style commieblocks in front of San Marco square. 
Or build another Latina or Sabaudia in some polder in the former lagoon.


----------



## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> Also Venice may be unhealty and bad to live: high humidity, old buildings, inaccessibility by fire trucks and emergency helicopters, inaccessibility to disables, old-fashionated sewage system,... Are you advocating that 60k Venetians should be relocated to the mainland (very healty, especially near Marghera oil plant or in highrises facing directly the A57


They could be relocated to Chioggia or Venezia Lido. But in any case the population of the islands themselves is dwindling, it was 200K late 19th Century, today around 60K, I think the median age is higher than in the rest of Italy. Unless you are uber-rich to finance a very expensive building renovation, life on those houses is miserable, expensive and uncomfortable. Which is why I think in 30 years its population will be reduced to maybe 10K-15K.



> Or maybe you want to close the Venetian lagoon with 3 dams and dry it entirely, building roads instead of canals
> 
> Or build another Latina or Sabaudia in some polder in the former lagoon.


I think they should reclaim the area between the airport, Burano and Murano, making it a polder. Mind you, Burano and Murano have had part of their canals filled. They could then build a brand-new city full of modern buildings, some futuristic transportation system like Ultra PRT, and extend A27 across it to some major hub center.


----------



## italystf

If people accept to live in "miserable" areas like Genoa or Venice historical centres, why is a problem of you? They aren't forced to stay there, they can move whenever they want. And a lot of people already did. Why should they be forced by law to move? Isn't it against individual freedom?
And have you also some destructive plans for Siena and Matera?


----------



## WalkTheWorld

italystf said:


> Wow, it looks very dangerous. It's not even a small junction but a junction with another SS road. Are there many like this on the SS131?
> 
> EDIT: there is at least a dozen of them but all are planned to be replaced by interchanges.


I 've see things like this in Turkey. But with traffic lights.


----------



## Road_UK

italystf said:


> If people accept to live in "miserable" areas like Genoa or Venice historical centres, why is a problem of you? They aren't forced to stay there, they can move whenever they want. And a lot of people already did. Why should they be forced by law to move? Isn't it against individual freedom?
> And have you also some destructive plans for Siena and Matera?


Don't take any notice. Once in a while he comes up with this crap. I'm sure he's got a good heart, but sometimes he's running low on tablets. We've been going through this a few times, and when he thinks it's acceptable to move entire populations due to infrastructure and ugly modern buildings, then let him think that. His cup of tea, not mine. Probably the reason he has moved to Holland, where they have experienced the worst possible modern architecture ever since they've bombed the hell out of Rotterdam.


----------



## Sunfuns

Road_UK said:


> where they have experienced the worst possible modern architecture ever since they've bombed the hell out of Rotterdam.


I'd guess you've never been east of Germany...

As for Genoa old town it will be just fine. Won't be an upscale residential area, but so what? In fact I've heard it's already in a better condition than it used to be (my so far only visit was in spring 2012).


----------



## Road_UK

Sunfuns said:


> I'd guess you've never been east of Germany...
> 
> As for Genoa old town it will be just fine. Won't be an upscale residential area, but so what? In fact I've heard it's already in a better condition than it used to be (my so far only visit was in spring 2012).


I've have been all over eastern Europe. Slightly difference situation though. Infrastructure there has been set up with little or no architectural freedoms and lack of fantasy.


----------



## Mauz®

Suburbanist said:


> But those buildings are a disaster waiting to happen. The alleys are too narrow to allow firefighter trucks, the buildings are not fit with access for disabled people, there is virtually no direct sunlight reaching the lowest 2 floors etc.
> 
> So it is a situation far worse than almost any other quaint/old quarter in a walled or former walled perimeter.
> 
> They could demolish part of the thing, build higher building to accommodate the displaced population, and then leave the rest empty as an open-air museum.
> 
> Believe me, the place is bad. It can't be even gentrified because you can't make such think look good. So the demographics of the are also not the better (it is not a dangerous place, but it has a huge concentration of people with no education and no jobs, for instance)
> 
> One alternative would be to demolish every other block and making them into parks/grass area. That way, you save half of all buildings (actually a little more, give them airy views, and demolish the other half, making the area like a chess board.


Almost ALL Italian cities have historical areas like that (ancient/old buildings, narrow streets, no modern standards). But you couldn't simply demolish half Italy.


Also living in seismic areas is dangerous (the whole Japan or California are "disasters waiting to happen"), or living near a volcano... But you can't demolish and relocate everything/everybody!


----------



## italystf

Mauz® said:


> Almost ALL Italian cities have historical areas like that (ancient/old buildings, narrow streets, no modern standards). But you couldn't simply demolish half Italy.
> 
> Also living in seismic areas is dangerous (the whole Japan or California are "disasters waiting to happen"), or living near a volcano... But you can't demolish and relocate everything/everybody!


Japan and California are quite safe under the seismical point of view because they have mostly modern buildings and construction standards are high (most damage that happened in Seikan 2 years ago were causated by the tsunami). Large parts of Italy are also very seismical, but we have a lot of old buildings plus many recent ones built with poor standards thanks to the corruption and crime syndacates...
And, while recostruction in Japan started few days after the disaster, L'Aquila is still mostly like it was just after 6.4.2009 (and probably, apart the most important historical monuments, won't be reconstructed anytime like before, since his residents have being used to live in the anonymous Silvio's new towns build in what before was open countryside).
Gemona, Venzone and other villages destroyed by the 1976 Friuli earthquake were reconstructed exactly like before in few years, thanks to the efforts of the hardworking local population, rather than to the propaganda of a populist leader.


----------



## Mauz®

Suburbanist said:


> But those buildings are a disaster waiting to happen. The alleys are too narrow to allow firefighter trucks, the buildings are not fit with access for disabled people, there is virtually no direct sunlight reaching the lowest 2 floors etc.
> 
> So it is a situation far worse than almost any other quaint/old quarter in a walled or former walled perimeter.
> 
> They could demolish part of the thing, build higher building to accommodate the displaced population, and then leave the rest empty as an open-air museum.
> 
> Believe me, the place is bad. It can't be even gentrified because you can't make such think look good. So the demographics of the are also not the better (it is not a dangerous place, but it has a huge concentration of people with no education and no jobs, for instance)
> 
> One alternative would be to demolish every other block and making them into parks/grass area. That way, you save half of all buildings (actually a little more, give them airy views, and demolish the other half, making the area like a chess board.


Earthquake, Tsunami, whatever you want... When it happens, there are never ZERO victims. So, those areas aren't safe.

California can build also "bubblegum-buildings", but when the "Big One" will came there will be still a lot of damage and victims. Surely not as many as if the same thing would happen in poor areas like Haiti, but still many.

So, should thay demolish everything and relocate all people to safer areas? No, that's impossible. 


The point is that your proposal is truly utopic. Impossible to realize it really!


----------



## Sunfuns

Japan and California are prone to occasional very strong earthquakes. I doubt the area destroyed by tsunami will ever be like before let alone soon... But such is the life, things tend not to stay the same forever.

Will see how good the building standards in California are only after "The big one". Skyscrapers will probably be ok, but I have my doubts about poorer areas of LA.


----------



## verreme

I don't think safety in the event of a big earthquake is enough to demolish Italian city centers. There's so much history there, I mean, these buildings still have a lot to say to historians and investigators. Plus they mean a lot to us humans as the heritage they are. Demolishing stuff because some think it's "outdated" has been one of the greatest mistakes of humanity.


----------



## g.spinoza

New motorway tariffs have been implemented starting on 1st January. The highest increment is on Aosta-Mont Blanc stretch of A5 (+14.44%); other large rises are on Passante di Mestre and A4 stretches belonging to CAV (+13%). No rises only on A3 Napoli-Salerno, and on stretches belonging to SATAP (A21 Torino-Piacenza and A4 Torino-Milano), SAT (A12 Livorno-Rosignano Marittimo), CAS (A18 and A20), A31 and A4 Brescia-Padova.

Full list here (sospeso means suspended):
CONCESSIONARIA / ADEGUAMENTO TARIFFARIO NEL 2013

Asti Cuneo S.p.a.  +7,20
ATIVA - Autostrada Torino-Ivrea-Valle D'Aosta +0,82
Autocamionale della Cisa S.p.A. +7,39
Autostrada Brescia-Verona-Vicenza-Padova sospeso
Autostrada dei Fiori S.p.A +3,70
Autostrada del Brennero S.p.A. +1,21
Autostrade Centropadane S.p.A. +5,66
Autostrade per l'Italia S.p.a. +3,47
Autovie Venete S.p.A. +12,63
CAV S.p.A. - Passante Mestre +13,55
CAV S.p.A.- Tratte autostradali A4 +13,19
Consorzio Autostrade Siciliane 0,00
Milano Serravalle Milano Tangenziali S.p.A. +1,16
RAV - Raccordo Autostradale Val D'Aosta S.p.A. +14,44
SALT - Autostrada Ligure - Toscana S.p.A. +3,93
SAM - Autostrade Meridionali S.p.A. 0,00
SAT - Autostrada Tirrenica S.p.A sospeso
SATAP S.p.a. A4 sospeso
SATAP S.p.a. A21 sospeso
SAV - Autostrade Valdostane S.p.A. +11,55
SITAF - barriera di Avigliana +6,65
SITAF - barriera di Bruere +4,90
SITAF - barriera di Salbertrand +6,15
Strada Dei Parchi S.p.a. +7,56
Tangenziale Napoli S.p.A. +3,59
Torino-Savona S.p.A. +2,24


----------



## hofburg

autovie venete pretty high as well


----------



## italystf

hofburg said:


> autovie venete pretty high as well


Autovie Venete completed some costly projects in the last past years (A28 extension towards the A27 and new exits of Latisana and Meolo) and others are undergoing (3rd lane Mestre-Villesse, reconstruction Villesse-Gorizia and planned Alvisopoli exit).

Normally, flat motorways have cheaper tolls.


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## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Autovie Venete completed some costly projects in the last past years (A28 extension towards the A27 and new exits of Latisana and Meolo) and others are undergoing (3rd lane Mestre-Villesse, reconstruction Villesse-Gorizia and planned Alvisopoli exit).


Can't be the whole story. SAT and SAM are also working on expensive projects but no raises had been granted to them.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Can't be the whole story. SAT and SAM are also working on expensive projects but no raises had been granted to them.


SAV, unlikely SAT and SAM isn't part of the Atlantia S.p.A. group (its shares are mostly owned by FVG region). I'm not sure if it could be a reason though, maybe they're just more greedy.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> SAV, unlikely SAT and SAM isn't part of the Atlantia S.p.A. group (its shares are mostly owned by FVG region). I'm not sure if it could be a reason though, maybe they're just more greedy.


This is not the reason either. Those figures are not the companies' requests, but what's been granted them by the government.


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## zerro

We must not forget that Autovie venete have increased tarrifs in 2012 for 12,93%. So in 2 years they increased tarrifs for more than 25% !!!


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## ChrisZwolle

They apparently do not want anyone to use their motorways.


----------



## Suburbanist

The toll concessionaires don't have autonomy to set fares as they wish (at least in terms of raising them).

In Italy, and pretty much everywhere else where there is a toll road operated by a private party, the rules specifying the fares and the criteria for their increase are set on the contract they sign. 

It is not like they can raise fares freely. 

In Italy, these contracts are rather complex, but they take into account traffic, completion of roadworks (including additional/retained increases for early/late completion), inflation, additional mitigation measures not originally planned (such as noise walls, reformulation of interchanges/exits) etc.

Toll concessions with many tunnels, for instance, were subject of additional fare increases because it was decided to strengthen the safety standards of tunnels after the fires on the Mont Blanc, Frejus and Gotthard tunnels. Some concessions experienced a larger than predicted traffic increase with new lanes, and thus fares weren't raised as originally planned.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Italian toll roads have the advantage that alternative routes are pretty slow. For instance this is a major issue in Spain where trucks have almost no advantage by driving on toll roads compared to the usually well-designed carreteras nacionales with a 100 km/h speed limit.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Spain was poorer than Italy and, in many cases, invested on widening old routes to 1+1 improved standards. Moreover, Spain has, usually, farther spaced settlements, meaning less time lost crossing cities...

Using Google Maps, for instance, we obtain the following driving times (I know it is not the most precise):

- Bologna - Bari: 5h57min on autostrade / 11h52min on non-autostrade routes
- Roma - Firenze: 2h47 / 5h34
- Bolzano - Modena: 2h21 / 4h18
- Torino - Venezia: 3h56 / 7h34
- Napoli - Reggio Calabra: 4h41 / 8h10


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Italian toll roads have the advantage that alternative routes are pretty slow. For instance this is a major issue in Spain where trucks have almost no advantage by driving on toll roads compared to the usually well-designed carreteras nacionales with a 100 km/h speed limit.


Only exceptions are A11 Florence - Viareggio (FI-PI-LI expressway next) and A14 Foggia - Bari - Taranto (exp. SS16 FG-BA and SS100 BA-TA).
Some people uses the SS3bis/SS309 and the SS1 as N-S routes but they're slower and often overcrowded. Other drive via local roads from Venice to Trento to avoid the detour via Verona. Other leave the A4 at Mestre and re-enter A14 in Cesena avoiding the expensive detour through Bologna.
In summer light traffic can avoid the insanely expensive tolls for Mont Blanc, St Bernard and Frejus tunnels by driving over passes (the Monginevro is also open almost year-round).

About A4 VE-TS: there is the quite straight SS14 next but it crosses many towns and has roundabout and traffic lights, so driving from TS to VE on that road may take 3 hours (instead of 1,5 via the A4). Almost everyone here uses the SS14 for short sections (ex. San Dona' to Portogruaro) but rarely on the entire lenght. If you have to go from Udine to Portogruaro, the straight provincial road is probably as fast as the A4-A23 because is 20km shorter.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> - Napoli - Reggio Calabra: 4h41 / 8h10


Apart the fact that avoid the motorway here is pointless (A3 is almost entirely toll-free), probably the 8h10 figure is more realistic if referred to the "motorway".


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ But those limits are just until Savona, where they widened the road to 3 lanes without physically expanding it.


----------



## Suburbanist

*Old pictues of Autostrade*

This website has some quite informative material and nice pics, though it is mostly dedicated to railways

A10 - Arazze. The highway had one lane per direction and 1 central lane for overtaking (both directions allowed). Extremely deadly design









Later, they transformed it on a 1+2 highway until they built a second carriageway in the 1975-1977









A6 Torino-Savona was built the same way but it gained a second carriageway only in the 1990s

Genova 1972









A7 x A10 iconic interchange u/c in 1967


----------



## Suburbanist

On the same website, there is also a set of maps showing the evolution of Italian highway network

The underlying map is from 1992, hence some "under construction" highways long completed shown as such

red = opened since last date
green = already opened before last date

1956









1964









1970









August 1975









1982









2008


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> Sometimes they're a bit slow to take down these construction-site speed limits. A14 south of Ancona, once enlarged to 2x3, had 100 km/h speed limit for more than a year after completion.
> 
> But yes, generally speaking motorway tunnels have no different limits from the general motorway one. Even the 10+ km Gran Sasso tunnels have 130 km/h limit.
> Don't remember the A5 north of Aosta, but if Road_UK says they're limited it must be so, then. Some parts of Genova-Ventimiglia are definitely limited: Albissola-Genova Voltri section is limited to 80 km/h.


I remember the time when they weren't limited, and blasting through these tunnels was fun! These days you have to be careful doing that, as at the end of some tunnels there are hidden laybys with a Polizia Stradale vehicle on it and inside are officers with really cool sunglasses waiting to **** up your day real good.


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> But yes, generally speaking motorway tunnels have no different limits from the general motorway one.* Even the 10+ km Gran Sasso tunnels have 130 km/h limit.
> *Don't remember the A5 north of Aosta, but if Road_UK says they're limited it must be so, then. Some parts of Genova-Ventimiglia are definitely limited: Albissola-Genova Voltri section is limited to 80 km/h.


i feel so dumb now








i crawled through it 80-90 km/h because i was sure there was such speed limit icard:
ok, now seriously - maybe it's because i got used to drive 80-100 through tunnels, but i don't feel safe driving 130 there.


----------



## Road_UK

x-type said:


> i feel so dumb now
> i crawled through it 80-90 km/h because i was sure there was such speed limit icard:
> ok, now seriously - maybe it's because i got used to drive 80-100 through tunnels, but i don't feel safe driving 130 there.


But it's fun...


----------



## x-type

Road_UK said:


> But it's fun...


i actually don't have balls to do it. not because of safety, (once i drove through Mala Kapela tunnel at 2 in the morning, i was probably the only person in the whole tunnel so i could easily do 150 if i wanted to) but because of speed traps.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> I remember the time when they weren't limited, and blasting through these tunnels was fun! These days you have to be careful doing that, as at the end of some tunnels there are hidden laybys with a Polizia Stradale vehicle on it and inside are officers with really cool sunglasses waiting to **** up your day real good.


The 130 km/h limit there was short lived, then. That section was opened between 2001 and 2007. 
I drove only once there, last spring. I didn't feel they needed a stricter limit. Quite the opposite of A32 Frejus-Torino: I didn't feel safe speeding there.


----------



## Fabri88

When I came home from Domodossola to Busto Arsizio a friend of mine drove through the A26 (the famous "Tunnels' Motorway") at an average speed of 150 km/h.

It was really funny but now I am only waiting the ticket HE'll pay!


----------



## darko06

The speed limit on A22 from Brenner/Brenero to Bolzano/Bozen is 110 km/h, tunnels included. (I drove there in December 2011.) And the Safety Tutor masts there (in Alto Adige Regione) are rare, perhaps one at every 30-40 kms.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

x-type said:


> i actually don't have balls to do it. not because of safety, (once i drove through Mala Kapela tunnel at 2 in the morning, i was probably the only person in the whole tunnel so i could easily do 150 if i wanted to) but because of speed traps.


Smile https://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&l...gxrpqJ14SHiD-SeWKmR0bQ&cbp=12,313.38,,0,12.52


----------



## brick84

works ended in 2012


*S.S. 284 "Occidentale Etnea" Bronte (province of Catania)*




















www.comune.bronte.ct.it









http://nunziospano.files.wordpress.com









www.cogip.it









http://nunziospano.files.wordpress.com


----------



## brick84

by _P. Minissale_


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Is this a new alignment or an improvement over an existing road?


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Is this a new alignment or an improvement over an existing road?


Mixed: some new sectors, some that were upgraded (farm roads giving access to it closed, grade separation etc) 

The western slopes of the Etna are very beautiful overt there


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Africa? Well almost. Palermo.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Africa? Well almost. Palermo.


 I didn't know you were from Northern Italy
:lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ This is the place: http://goo.gl/maps/deYmj

It is an access road to A19. They are rebuilding the place with local lanes, which is why you see access ramps closed with concrete barriers (but no excuses for trash  )


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> Africa? Well almost. Palermo.


Well, it's on the African tectonic plate. :lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ This is the place: http://goo.gl/maps/deYmj
> 
> It is an access road to A19. They are rebuilding the place with local lanes, which is why you see access ramps closed with concrete barriers (but no excuses for trash  )


This is something that's always struck me: the amount of trash beside roads in the South. During my month stay in Apulia I've seen them all: overflowing dumpsters, emergency bays in superstrade transformed into trash bins, people launching garbage from the window of their running cars... I simply cannot understand.



Verso said:


> Well, it's on the African tectonic plate. :lol:


Lol, but more seriously, Italy has 3 islands located onto African tectonic plate: Pantelleria, Lampedusa and Lampione, but interestingly enough, not Linosa, even if it's part of the same archipelago with Lampedusa and Lampione.


----------



## brick84

Suburbanist said:


> Mixed: some new sectors, some that were upgraded (farm roads giving access to it closed, grade separation etc)
> 
> The western slopes of the Etna are very beautiful overt there


^^


> _*L'ammodernamento della S.S. 284 "Occidentale Etnea“ *
> 7 Maggio 2010
> L'ANAS ha avviato i lavori di sistemazione e di adeguamento della S.S. 284 "Occidentale Etnea", nel tratto compreso tra gli attuali km 20 e km 15+900, in prossimità dell'abitato di Bronte, per uno sviluppo complessivo della nuova opera di 3,8 km.
> La piattaforma stradale, che attualmente presenta una larghezza variabile tra 7 e 8 m, verrà adeguata secondo le caratteristiche plano-altimetriche e di sezione trasversale richieste dalle nuove Norme per le strade extraurbane secondarie, prevedendo quindi l'ampliamento della carreggiata attuale, che sarà composta da due corsie da 3,75 m, una per senso di marcia e da banchine laterali pavimentate da 1,5 m, per una larghezza complessiva di 10,5 m. *Circa un terzo del nuovo tracciato sarà realizzato in variante.*
> L'investimento complessivo è di oltre 38 milioni.
> Il tracciato sarà caratterizzato da una serie significativa di opere d'arte, quali i due viadotti in acciaio e calcestruzzo denominati Ciapparo e Madonna della Vena, lunghi rispettivamente 85 e 270 m, e le tre gallerie artificiali Ciapparo, Madonna della Vena I e Madonna della Vena II, per una lunghezza complessiva di oltre 350 m.
> ...._
> ...





ChrisZwolle said:


> Africa? Well almost. Palermo.


hno:


----------



## g.spinoza

WalkTheWorld said:


> Home.


??
Aren't you from humid, mosquito-stricken, few-meters-above-sea-level Mantua? :cheers:


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Worst piece of (former) national road in Italy: SS 345 between Maniva and Crocedomini passes, through Dasdana pass:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> couldn't find part 2.


In Veneto there is the former SS465 that not only isn't paved but is also officially closed to traffic (even if there aren't physical barriers, just signs).
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=Campol...d=Hw0j56ekUVoJ7TDvDFr02w&cbp=12,340.8,,0,0.37

http://maps.google.it/maps?q=Campol...8hkHFpZsCV6rqUX6eA_dIQ&cbp=12,260.08,,0,-2.05

http://maps.google.it/maps?q=Campol...d=R-1oQjmZRj2pzHQHc1QmvQ&cbp=12,83.06,,0,3.65

At the junction with the remaining (paved, open) part of the SS465 and the SS619 the old, now cul-de-sac road has still the priority!
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=Campol...=sWDt_YLIjUE8NgREvOIqlg&cbp=12,86.85,,0,10.14


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Yes, there are some other examples of closed SS roads. For instance, SS614 "of the Maielletta":
http://goo.gl/maps/dYQeA

Or SS 76 "of Esino Valley":
http://goo.gl/maps/cKjgA

But Maniva-Crocedomini road is open during summer.


Some news:
- Valfabbrica-Pianello works on SS318 expressway, within the scope of Project Quadrilatero in central Italy (Ancona-Perugia expressway) risk closure due to financial problems of its sub-contractors. Works are stopped now and workers were laid off. The other works on SS318, Valfabbrica-Sospertole, have no problems for now.

- Region Tuscany gave green light on the so-called "Variante di San Donato" in the framework of A1 enlargement, between Firenze Sud and Incisa Valdarno. The current stretch of A1 will be used entirely for northbound traffic (like they did between Firenze sud and Firenze nord), and a "variante" will be created for southbound traffic, including a 1km, three-lane tunnel.

- SS42 SSV (Strada Scorrimento Veloce, a 1+1 expressway) between Nadro di Ceto and Berzo Demo (8 km in province of Brescia) will open February 6th at 3pm.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Those unpaved roads are very interesting, wouldn't mind driving down one of them


----------



## WalkTheWorld

g.spinoza said:


> ??
> Aren't you from humid, mosquito-stricken, few-meters-above-sea-level Mantua? :cheers:


Mantua me genuit sed Camunia is the land of my folks. My home is left of the picture, a few miles south. Are you talking about the large city named after a spicy sausage, maybe?


----------



## WalkTheWorld

DanielFigFoz said:


> Those unpaved roads are very interesting, wouldn't mind driving down one of them


June to October, dude. It's on a high plateau, above 2000m.


----------



## g.spinoza

WalkTheWorld said:


> Mantua me genuit sed Camunia is the land of my folks. My home is left of the picture, a few miles south. Are you talking about the large city named after a spicy sausage, maybe?


In Bononia vixi annis XII, sed I was born and raised in a little village in central Italy. Less mosquitos.
:lol:


----------



## Penn's Woods

WalkTheWorld said:


> Mantua me genuit sed Camunia is the land of my folks. My home is left of the picture, a few miles south. Are you talking about the large city named after a spicy sausage, maybe?





g.spinoza said:


> In Bononia vixi annis XII, sed I was born and raised in a little village in central Italy. Less mosquitos.
> :lol:


What's with the Latin?!


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> What's with the Latin?!


"Mantua me genuit" (Mantua gave birth to me) is the famous incipit of Virgil's tomb epitaph. I just had no quote about Bologna so I just improvised ("In Bononia vixi annis XII", I lived in Bologna for 12 years).


----------



## hofburg

http://maps.google.it/maps?saddr=Ra...FaDJuwIdPuzMAA&mra=me&mrsp=1,0&sz=14&t=m&z=14


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## hofburg

A23 entire lenght (almost) :cheers:
enjoy


----------



## darko06

Nice video!
What is the speed limit in tunnels on A23? 100 kmh, or 110 kmh (as on the Autostrada di Brennero from Bolzano to the Austrian border)?


----------



## italystf

darko06 said:


> Nice video!
> What is the speed limit in tunnels on A23? 100 kmh, or 110 kmh (as on the Autostrada di Brennero from Bolzano to the Austrian border)?


Usually the general limit (130).


----------



## darko06

I find it generous, because only the first two tunnels have emergency shoulder lanes.


----------



## hofburg

I find it awesome and fuel saving  it can be like that because the traffic is low.


----------



## darko06

However there are plenty of trucks.


----------



## italystf

There is a suggested (but non mandatory) 80kmh in the curvy section over Cavazzo lake.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Any updates about the construction of A12 between Livorno and Roma?


----------



## darko06

I'm okay with this speed limit (130 kmh), tunnels included. Which reminds me to the fact that the speed limit on Croatian A6 is artificially low (110 kmh), in tunnels only 100 kmh. (That's why I'm asking.)


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Any updates about the construction of A12 between Livorno and Roma?


People trying to stop the project by appealing to judicial courts; Ministry of Economy deeming it "too costly to be built" and apparently stopping the project. Same old, same old.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> People trying to stop the project by appealing to judicial courts; Ministry of Economy deeming it "too costly to be built" and apparently stopping the project. Same old, same old.


They should at least complete the Civitavecchia - Grosseto section because the SS1 is not expressway there. Civitavecchia - Tarquinia is already u/c.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> They should at least complete the Civitavecchia - Grosseto section because the SS1 is not expressway there.


Yeah, but it's the most controversial section of the whole motorway. Over the Orbetello stretch a full-blown war is being fought.



> Civitavecchia - Tarquinia is already u/c.


But from what I hear, veeeeery slooooowly.


----------



## g.spinoza

According to Istat, the Italian Institute for Statistics and Demographics, deaths on the Italian roads were cut in half in 10 years, since 2001. In 2011, road casualties fere 63.6 for million inh., 6% less than in 2010.

Other interesting statistics: we have 610 cars / 1000 inh (above EU average), cargo traffic on Italian motorways was 23.5 million tons/km/10,000 inh, below EU average.

http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/notizia/100013020499003


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## italystf

I watched on Youtube a TV report from 1961 about roads and traffic in Rome. They said that a motorway would be built "soon" between Rome and Livorno. :lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

Quoting user brick84 from Italian thread:



brick84 said:


> Un'immagine del ponte crollato


A bridge collapsed on SS 115 Agrigento-Sciacca in Sicily. Nobody was hurt because some drivers noticed the pavement sinking and reported to authorities, who closed the bridge before it collapsed.


----------



## g.spinoza

According to European Commissioner for Transport Siim Kallas, Italy presented to the Committee a project for A31 "Valdastico North" different from the already decided one. Months ago, in Italy, it was decided for a long (15+ km) tunnel under Folgaria plateau and a connection with A22 at Besenello, south of Trento, but the European committee received a different project: a more northern stretch, from Piovene Rocchette to Vattaro, and connecting to SS47 Valsugana.

Long story short: boy, what a mess.


----------



## -Pino-

^^ Is it a mess-up indeed or a late turn for an alternative described by some as the superior option?


----------



## g.spinoza

I think they (and by they I mean Attilio Schneck and his "Autostrade Brescia Verona Vicenza Padova" company) realized the only feasible option is to fight aside Trentino and not against it. As of now, Trentino is too powerful.


----------



## keber

-Pino- said:


> ^^ Is it a mess-up indeed or a late turn for an alternative described by some as the superior option?


Superior options are always turning up first. Then compromises come, one more expensive than the other.


----------



## g.spinoza

I read yesterday on "Montagne360", official magazine of CAI (Italian Alpine Club), than recently Italy signed the Transport protocol of Alpine Convention.

Anyone who knows something more?


----------



## g.spinoza

According to Attilio Schneck, chairman of "Autostrade Brescia Verona Vicenza Padova", 7 km of new motorway on A31 "Valdastico south" will open next May, from the recently opened stretch at Montegaldella-Longare to Albettone-Barbarano. For the whole 54 km new motorway we will have to wait until 2014


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## Suburbanist

*A Stelvio tunnel?*

I was thinking here... a 1+1 tunnel under the Stelvio would be quite an interesting proposition.

SS38 is a generally good route, it just need a few bypasses. It has a lot of tunnels between Tirano and Bormio that make it easy to drive there.

On the other side, the route between Merano and Landeck (Austria) is generally a good one, apart from a few missing bypasses easy to build.

Now if they built a new tunnel and improved the route between the base entrance on the NE side and Prato allo Stelvio, and made some improvements, we'd have a good option to drive between Milano and Innsbruck not involving the route via Trento. They could make the tunnel severly restricted to trucks if they are concerned with being overloaded by trucks.

A tunnel built at an acceptable base altitude that wouldn't make it so difficult to operate in winter would have to be no longer than 9km.


----------



## g.spinoza

In general, I find ridiculous that in 21st we still have to be subjected to the weather, close road passes and have no other options to go to the other side. I'd like very much tunnels under major passes which are closed in wintertime.

About Stelvio, the road from Milan to there (through Valtellina) is not prepared to sustain large amounts of traffic. It's inadequate even today, and slowly being replaced by a better one (a 1+1 superstrada).


----------



## Coccodrillo

Italy is quite good on this point (Stelvio is an exception to the rule). In Switzerland most passes don't have a road at all, and when there is one it is usually closed in winter. Only a few are kept opened (Lucomagno/Lukmanier, Julier/Giulia/Güglia) or have a train shuttle (Furka, Vereina).


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> Italy is quite good on this point (Stelvio is an exception to the rule).


Only with major international passes. The only internal passes kept free of snow are those serving ski areas.


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> About Stelvio, the road from Milan to there (through Valtellina) is not prepared to sustain large amounts of traffic. It's inadequate even today, and slowly being replaced by a better one (a 1+1 superstrada).
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but that is a not-that-narrow valley where new roads should be easy.
> 
> 
> 
> Coccodrillo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Italy is quite good on this point (Stelvio is an exception to the rule). In Switzerland most passes don't have a road at all, and when there is one it is usually closed in winter. Only a few are kept opened (Lucomagno/Lukmanier, Julier/Giulia/Güglia) or have a train shuttle (Furka, Vereina).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many Italian passes close on winter, especially those 2000m+
> 
> I think they could keep the Seltvio open year-round (or at least more than 42-45 weeks per year) if they wanted to.
> 
> It used to be the major route Milano-Wien back on 19th Century before rail links were in place, a strategic point that was the border for a time as well. I'm sure they had some resources to keep it open more than 5 months per year.
Click to expand...


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Only with major international passes. The only internal passes kept free of snow are those serving ski areas.


The problem is that some roads are subjected to the risk of avalanches so even if you can remove the snow they would be dangerous to drive on. There are 2000m passes open year-round and 1000m passes closed in winter.

@Suburbanist: during the Austrian empire the road was open in winter, but only for sledged pulled by horses. They didn't clean the road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think you're talking about a 14 km tunnel (at 1500-1600 m) or 17 km tunnel (at 1200 m) to get through the Stelvio. Just south of Bormio is the second-longest wannabe tunnel entirely in Italy (Galleria Cepina Sant'Antonio - 7925 m) but it has a few short stretches in open air.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think you're talking about a 14 km tunnel (at 1500-1600 m) or 17 km tunnel (at 1200 m) to get through the Stelvio. Just south of Bormio is the second-longest wannabe tunnel entirely in Italy (Galleria Cepina Sant'Antonio - 7925 m) but it has a few short stretches in open air.


3rd after the Variante di Valico will open. 

A tunnel below the Stelvio would be useful but 14km is too long to be financially feasible. Maybe they could build a shorter tunnel with both ends at around 2000m.


----------



## brick84

SS 640 Caltanissetta-Agrigento (Sicily)



> *Galleria e viadotto Serra Cazzola*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Talking of Sicilia, are they still pretending the Messina Strait Bridge is under construction? What is the current status. I really hope this bridge will be constructed, but it's been postponed numerous times so I'm rather sceptic about it. Since the Norwegians are considering a floating cable-stayed bridge for the Sognefjord crossing, I'm wondering whether this a good idea for the Messina Strait as well. It's technically possible (the offshore industry uses large floating rigs for decades), plus it may give some additional flexibility in case of earthquakes.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Talking of Sicilia, are they still pretending the Messina Strait Bridge is under construction? What is the current status. I really hope this bridge will be constructed, but it's been postponed numerous times so I'm rather sceptic about it. Since the Norwegians are considering a floating cable-stayed bridge for the Sognefjord crossing, I'm wondering whether this a good idea for the Messina Strait as well. It's technically possible (the offshore industry uses large floating rigs for decades).


The bridge was officially cancelled by Monti government. The bridge could be cool but also very expensive and possibly dangerous (seismic risk). I think the South has other priotities now. I don't think the bridge will be completed anywhere in the next 30 years.
The strait is around 500 meters deep, to much for a tunnel.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

italystf said:


> The strait is around 100 meters deep, to much for a tunnel.


That's no problem for Norway. Some Norwegian tunnels go almost 300 meters below sea level.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's no problem for Norway. Some Norwegian tunnels go almost 300 meters below sea level.


Sorry, I made a typo. The dept is around 500 meters, not 100.


----------



## Road_UK

How deep is the Channel Tunnel?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Ah, then the floating cable-stayed bridge may be worth considering. A tunnel is technically feasible, but it would need very long ramps which are not suited for motorway traffic, not to mention when you want to combine it with a railroad. 

A huge suspension bridge with a main span of 3 kilometers has never been done before, especially not in combination with a railroad. Since suspension bridges are relatively light, they are not as suitable for rail freight. There are very few suspension bridges with a main span over 1 km with a railroad.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Ah, then the floating cable-stayed bridge may be worth considering. A tunnel is technically feasible, but it would need very long ramps which are not suited for motorway traffic, not to mention when you want to combine it with a railroad.
> 
> A huge suspension bridge with a main span of 3 kilometers has never been done before, especially not in combination with a railroad. Since suspension bridges are relatively light, they are not as suitable for rail freight. There are very few suspension bridges with a main span over 1 km with a railroad.


The longest single-span bridge in the world it's in Japan and is less than 2km long. It was built in 12 years and it's only for road traffic. And our politicians said that we could build the Messina bridge in 6 years...


----------



## timo9

:cheers:


Nephasto said:


> ^^I've got to see some photo's of those steep autostrade!!
> 
> Some photo's of the beggining of the french A8, right after crossing the border from Italy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really low speed limits!! Even taking into account it's a 6% downhill. Here in Portugal it would probably have only a 100Km/h limitation (like many 6% downhill cases on A25, for example). :colgate:
> Still, as this A8 has a huge amount of traffic(and many trucks), I guess it's comprehensile.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Road_UK said:


> How deep is the Channel Tunnel?


I don't know the exact figure but the deepest point is beween 100 and 150 m below sea level, half of this distance made by rock, the other by water.

According to Wikipedia, the Seikan rail tunnel of similar length is deeper, at 140 m below sea bed and 240 m below sea level.


----------



## x-type

timo9 said:


> http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a203/ixic/cd621535.jpg:cheers:


lol what is my photo of HR A6 doing here?  (btw it indeed is a steep part of it)


----------



## hofburg

^lol


----------



## keber

Interesting, last 6 pictures are mine.


----------



## brick84

italystf said:


> The bridge was officially cancelled by Monti government. The bridge could be cool but also very expensive and possibly dangerous (seismic risk). I think the South has other priotities now. I don't think the bridge will be completed anywhere in the next 30 years.
> The strait is around 500 meters deep, to much for a tunnel.


No. The bridge over the Strait of Messina has not been 'cancelled' but put in 'stand-by' the Government Monti, who gave a limit of two years to find investors that invest in the project.




ChrisZwolle said:


> That's no problem for Norway. Some Norwegian tunnels go almost 300 meters below sea level.


The tunnel, in part due to technical problems (slopes), it would be too expensive.


----------



## brick84

brick84 said:


> SS 640 Caltanissetta-Agrigento (Sicily)


^^


_by Giovanni Lillo Vecchio_

































































































































fonte: https://plus.google.com/105520740578079364333/posts?banner=pwa


----------



## timo9

Thank's for the update!


----------



## brick84

_SICILY_

*A18 Catania-Messina with Etna eruption*


in _Giarre (Ct)_









source: http://mariagabriellaleonardi.blogspot.it/2010_10_01_archive.html


----------



## brick84

source: www.youreporter.it


----------



## brick84

*A20 Palermo-Messina (Sicily)*

near Pace del Mela (Me)




logan1975 said:


>


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*

*opening to traffic new 9 km of 'macrolotto V'* (with viaduct Favazzina)

http://www.stradeanas.it/index.php?/news/dettaglio/id/3320


:banana:


----------



## Suburbanist

Talk of a mess of interchanges and toll plazas: near Milano Fiera


----------



## italystf

Talking about stupidity: those 2 roads (Via Bonomea and Via Scala Santa) are one-way both in the same direction: you can drive only uphill on both. If you want to go downhill you must do a very long detour through another road. But locals have a special permit to drive in both direction. So you're driving happily in the middle of the road because you think it's one-way and you meet someone going against you! At the bridge in Via Bonomea there is even a traffic light to alternate traffic in both directions even if the downhill direction is allowed only to residents.
They should have made a road one-way downhill and the other one-way uphill, the same for residents and not.
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=villa+...cina,+Trieste,+Friuli-Venezia+Giulia&t=h&z=16


----------



## keber

Suburbanist said:


> Talk of a mess of interchanges and toll plazas: near Milano Fiera


Another reason for introducing full electronic tolling.


----------



## brick84

brick84 said:


> *A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*
> 
> *opening to traffic new 9 km of 'macrolotto V'* (with viaduct Favazzina)
> 
> http://www.stradeanas.it/index.php?/news/dettaglio/id/3320
> 
> 
> :banana:


from italian forum



jack74 said:


> Ho trovato due foto del *viadotto Favazzina* in rete


----------



## brick84

Amazing video by _JollyRoger71_



JollyRoger71 said:


>



Video by Anas:



brick84 said:


> :


----------



## legolego

keber said:


> It is still much better than this dangerous interchange exit on A4 directly before Torino, which also has pretty inadequate signage and is narrowed from three to two lanes before that. Removing this gas station (whose entrance has almost nonexistent exit lane) should be high priority. Check closely all the exits and merges in this interchange and gas station.
> http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&ll=45.134132,7.732642&spn=0.003239,0.006968&t=h&z=18


The existing gas station is being replaced here (work in progress on the new site):


image upload


----------



## Suburbanist

keber said:


> Another reason for introducing full electronic tolling.


I agree.

There is, however, a silver lining to complex toll plazas: since they are expensive, and require plenty of space, they don't build too many of them, especially in medium cities, avoiding its use for local traffic (which is a pain in Germany often).


----------



## keber

legolego said:


> The existing gas station is being replaced here (work in progress on the new site):
> 
> http://postimage.org/
> image upload


Good, so next year I can expect enlarged interchange. Are works on both sides of A4 or just on northern side?


----------



## g.spinoza

First stretch of BreBeMi, future A35 between Brescia and Milan, 17 km from Chiari to Calcio will open 6 months ahead of schedule, in summer 2013.

http://www.bresciaoggi.it/stories/d...pertura_entro_lestate/?refresh_ce&scroll=1291


----------



## Suburbanist

I keep wondering... are concessionaires purposefully presenting worst-case scenario for roadworks, then cheering themselves when they open ahead of schedule? First A14, now this...

(now if only the Messina Strati bridge opened 10 years ahead of schedule j/k)


----------



## Mauz®

Don't worry... Usually in Italy works end several years LATE. When they have an end...


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> I keep wondering... are concessionaires purposefully presenting worst-case scenario for roadworks, then cheering themselves when they open ahead of schedule? First A14, now this...


No they usually schedule works for completion 2 years from now. So if you see a message now it says "works completion: 2015". Wait a year and you'll see "works completion: 2016". They're doing this for A3 since 1995.


----------



## italystf

WTF?


----------



## Mauz®

^^
What's wrong with that?

This is the answer:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Ovad...Ovada,+Alessandria,+Piemonte,+Italia&t=h&z=19


3 lanes from A26 and then 2 lanes towards Genova/Livorno and 2 lanes towards Ventimiglia.
So when you reach the junction you have 3 choices:
1) keep right and go to Ventimiglia;
2) keep left and go to Genova/Livorno;
3) stay in the middle and then be able to choose where to go at the last moment...


----------



## italystf

Mauz® said:


> ^^
> What's wrong with that?
> 
> This is the answer:
> https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Ovad...Ovada,+Alessandria,+Piemonte,+Italia&t=h&z=19
> 
> 
> 3 lanes from A26 and then 2 lanes towards Genova/Livorno and 2 lanes towards Ventimiglia.
> So when you reach the junction you have 3 choices:
> 1) keep right and go to Ventimiglia;
> 2) keep left and go to Genova/Livorno;
> 3) stay in the middle and then be able to choose where to go at the last moment...


It's not so clear for who drives here the first time.


----------



## Mauz®

What's unclear? How would you inform drivers of the direction they will be able to take from each lane (without switching)?
IMHO that's a very simple information... 

Across Italy there are many panels way more complicated than these!


----------



## italystf

Directions are correct, but overhead signs don't match with lanes and this can generate confusion.









Sign before a roundabout:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This solution is frequently found in Denmark. The middle lane exits both to the right and left. (they merge the same way as well, which is somewhat less comfortable).


----------



## Attus

Mauz® said:


> What's unclear? How would you inform drivers of the direction they will be able to take from each lane (without switching)?
> IMHO that's a very simple information...
> 
> Across Italy there are many panels way more complicated than these!


The sing IS confusing. There are lots of good examples from Austria, Hungary or Denmark, for example, but this one is not quite clear.


----------



## OulaL

I find italysf's first example perfectly clear: if I know my destination, I know which lane to take. And if I choose the middle lane, I know - thanks to the splitting arrows - that the lane is going to split soon.

On the other hand, here we have an another example - not from Italy but Finland, from the diverging point of highways 4 and 7:

https://maps.google.fi/?ll=60.24513...id=4fgn9lMj7VKwUBqwVlnBPw&cbp=12,48.99,,0,7.4

What does this tell to you? That the left lane and middle lane go towards Lahti, and that the right line - and the right lane only - goes towards Kotka/Kouvola/Porvoo, diverging in 500 metres?

Clear, if it only were true. It isn't. As you drive forward, you'll see that the middle lane actually splits between those two directions, becoming the right lane on the Lahti-directon motorway as well as the left lane on the Porvoo-direction motorway.

So on the contrary to italysf's example above, and Chris' examples of Denmark, this signage actually is misleading to someone driving here for the first time.

(italysf's second example - from Bologna - surely is confusing, though.)


----------



## Mauz®

Attus said:


> The sing IS confusing. There are lots of good examples from Austria, Hungary or Denmark, for example, but this one is not quite clear.


Can you show me some examples?

I mean a 3 lane road going to split in two 2 lane junctions (so, from 3 lanes to 4 lanes totally).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Denmark split*


foto 367 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


foto 368 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

I think the Finnish sign is just fine, you don't really need so much information. This example from Slovenia is good though:


----------



## x-type

i find Slovenian and Dannish the best


----------



## Renzokuken

italystf said:


> A very dangerous motorway to motorway junction is probably the A14-A16 in Apulia cause it was originally planned with Neaples-Bari as main direction. But it's 40 years old.
> Many on ramp on the A3 Neaples- Salerno used to have stop sign and no acceleration ramp, now part of that motorway is modernized.


The amount of traffic around that junction just doesn't justify any upgrade (unlike it recently happened e.g. for A8/A9 interchange).

In any case, I go across A14/A16 junction at last four times per year, I'd say that the only dangerous part is the southward carriageway segment on A14, which has a couple of dangerous curves (speed limit is 80km/h there, IIRC).


----------



## Attus

Mauz® said:


> Can you show me some examples?
> 
> I mean a 3 lane road going to split in two 2 lane junctions (so, from 3 lanes to 4 lanes totally).


Unfortunately I don't have too much road photos 'cause I usually drive myself  But the Danish and Slovanian signs, posted by other forum members, are nice. The Hungarian version is similar to the Slovenian one, but the destinations are written not above, but between the arrows, i.e. a bit lower than in the Slovenian sign.


----------



## Mauz®

I meant a Streetview pic... 

BTW... In these photos the concept is the SAME... In the Slovenian panel it's just reversed.


----------



## Mauz®

ChrisZwolle said:


> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3525/3212858629_f3248c1446_z.jpg
> 
> foto 367 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
> 
> 
> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3089/3212858727_1a85cc8d95_z.jpg
> 
> foto 368 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


I find these two examples way more confusing.
If I'm driving on the middle lane where am I going? In the first signal it seems I'm going against a wall.
In the second pic I see 3 lanes and 4 arrows. And obviously they're not aligned with the lanes. So, If I drive on the middle lane where am I going?



IMHO on the Italian and on the Slovenian panel it's way clearer that the middle lane is going to SPLIT.


----------



## -Pino-

^^ I do not fully agree. The Slovenian signs has two sets of focal point and the split arrow above the middle lane points to both of them. The Italian sign has three sets of focal points and no arrow pointing to the focals in the middle. There is a complete disconnect between arrows and focal points. 

Though that is something that an Italian motorist must be used to in general, many foreign motorists will be confused. Even having lived in Italy, thus knowing some of the Italian signposting rationale, I needed a few seconds to get fhe message of this sign. Which means that others will take too long. I think that the situation would already be improved by the middle sign not having any focals at all. But ideally, in this type of situation, a split arrow actually points to the focal points concerned in each direction.


----------



## Attus

Mauz® said:


> I meant a Streetview pic...


No streetview in Hungary 



> BTW... In these photos the concept is the SAME... In the Slovenian panel it's just reversed.


No, in the Italian version the central sign is confusing, in Slovenian on destination names are listed only once, in a very clear way.


----------



## italystf

Mauz® said:


> I meant a Streetview pic...
> 
> BTW... In these photos the concept is the SAME... In the Slovenian panel it's just reversed.


It's better the Slovenian one. The same city written twice on the same panel (or on two adjacent panels) is always confusing for motorists.


----------



## Daviedoff

A26 Genova - Alessandria on video, recorded September 2012:


----------



## Mauz®

^^
A7 is funnier! Particularly if you're going South...


----------



## Attus

^^ Two years ago I drove there, but downwards (i.e. southbound). It was dark and heavy rain. I hardly saw anything. In tunnels was it a little bit easier


----------



## Mauz®

A7 Southbound, dark and rainy... Definitely NOT funny! 

But A7 southbound in a sunny day it's fantastic... Or maybe it WAS fantastic, until the safety-tutor was installed. 

But there was also plenty of assholes like this..


----------



## brick84

*Highway A19 Palermo-Catania *

some pics









http://www.nicobastone.com


near Enna








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/44756331



*Ponte di Capodarso - Caltanissetta
*








http://www.scoprirecaltanissetta.it


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A14 Rimini - Fano*

The new tunnel Novilara opened on March 21st, 2013. It's a three-lane tunnel, part of the A14 widening to 2x3 lanes between Pesaro and Fano. The complete widening works should be completed before the summer peak travel.

I wonder though, will they use the old 2-lane tunnels for northbound traffic, i.e. split the traffic in two tubes?


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> The new tunnel Novilara opened on March 21st, 2013. It's a three-lane tunnel, part of the A14 widening to 2x3 lanes between Pesaro and Fano. The complete widening works should be completed before the summer peak travel.
> 
> I wonder though, will they use the old 2-lane tunnels for northbound traffic, i.e. split the traffic in two tubes?


Yes.
New tunnel: southbound traffic
Old tunnel: northbound traffic

Quoting from the Italian forum:


g.spinoza said:


> Sì, è appena a sud di Pesaro, penso che ammoderneranno l'autostrada esistente trasformandola in carreggiata nord e la galleria in variante diventerà la sud. Tra l'altro anche nella autostrada esistente c'è una piccola galleria, che andrà adeguata.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Translating myself into English:

Yes, it's just south of Pesaro, I think they're going to renovate existing motorway using it as northbound carriageway, while the variante tunnel is going to carry southbound traffic. As a matter of fact existing carriageway also has a small tunnel, which is going to be enlarged.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder though, will they use the old 2-lane tunnels for northbound traffic, i.e. split the traffic in two tubes?


I don't think so, tunnels are too narrow and close to each other. I think they are going to enlarge one of the existing tunnels and abandon the other one.


----------



## brick84

*A20 Messina-Palermo*

_near Milazzo and Rometta (province of Messina)_




logan1975 said:


>


----------



## italystf

Unusual 1+1 divided road near Verona
http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&ll...d=5Jic-1BJH5PQFVShAeSuHA&cbp=12,14.53,,0,1.74


----------



## Coccodrillo

The 1.8 km tunnel on the SS 36 through Monza has been inaugurated today. One carriageway has been opened today (don't ask which one), the other will follow tomorrow.

Some photos of local politicians here, with from time to time also photos of what they inaugurated: http://milano.corriere.it/gallery/m..._3f1ca61c-9c61-11e2-aac9-bc82fb60f3c7.shtml#1


----------



## Verso

^^ So SS36 is finally connected to the Italian motorway network. :cheers:


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> The 1.8 km tunnel on the SS 36 through Monza has been inaugurated today. One carriageway has been opened today (don't ask which one), the other will follow tomorrow.
> 
> Some photos of local politicians here, with from time to time also photos of what they inaugurated: http://milano.corriere.it/gallery/m..._3f1ca61c-9c61-11e2-aac9-bc82fb60f3c7.shtml#1


... and already 20-minutes queue on the first day. This is Italian-style construction: open something, even when it's not finished yet.

http://milano.corriere.it/gallery/m...to_97860682-9d0f-11e2-a96c-45d048d6d7eb.shtml


----------



## JB Colbert

Manacva la tua perla di saggezza quotidiana...


----------



## g.spinoza

Italian A9 is closed northbound due to this:

http://video.corriere.it/assalto-portavalori-caos-a-9/20118e44-a027-11e2-b85a-0540f7c490c5

Military-style commando attacked an armoured van for money transferring and set it on fire.

The ten-people-commando fled the scene with 10 million euro.


----------



## JB Colbert

And then?

The daily bullsht is served...


----------



## Verso

I didn't know Yugoslavia had been signed in English in Italy (with "Y").

http://goo.gl/maps/fD3z6


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> I didn't know Yugoslavia had been signed in English in Italy (with "Y").
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/fD3z6


I passed there many times and never noticed. :nuts:
Maybe because the official country code was YU (it was posted on signs too). However in Italian we write Jugoslavia or even Iugoslavia.


----------



## italystf

Just gave a look to the history of the user 2 posts above: half of his posts are obvious trolling, I wonder how can such stuff remain undeleted.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I put him in my ignore list long time ago, so his posts just won't show up for me.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> I passed there many times and never noticed. :nuts:
> Maybe because the official country code was YU (it was posted on signs too). However in Italian we write Jugoslavia or even Iugoslavia.


Have you noticed that A1 is signed further down the road instead of A4?


----------



## italystf

In the past there was a sign pointing to the A1 (instead of A4) on this roundabout.
And in this panel there was "A14 Trieste" and "A14 Venezia". 

Fortunately A1 and A14 aren't anywhere near this area. Imagine how bad it would be if they mixed up A1 and A14 near Bologna or A1 and A4 near Milan.:bash:

EDIT: my links point to maps.google.*si* because I navigated Google Maps from Verso's link.


----------



## italystf

I was wondering if there are other places in the world where 2 road tunnels cross each other at different levels.
http://maps.google.si/maps?hl=sl&ll=45.635512,13.790224&spn=0.007847,0.021136&t=m&z=16
Originally they weren't intended to be road tunnels as they were built as bomb shelters during WWII. Many tunnels like them exist in Trieste (they're known as "Kleine Berlin" complex) but those were only that were opened fr road traffic (in 1949).
Other 2 road tunnels exist in Trieste, they opened in 1907 and 1912 ad were initially used for an electric streetcar.

Some closed WWII tunnel.
http://maps.google.si/maps?hl=sl&ll...-AHGIGFDDGkwzQE8oA&cbp=12,322.74,,0,1.01&z=16
http://maps.google.si/maps?hl=sl&ll...7sqOQY6Q0t-EB4fyA&cbp=12,357.84,,0,-1.01&z=18 (the right one is a WWII museum, the left is converted into a repair garage )
http://maps.google.si/maps?hl=sl&ll...o15KrbYSralG0ru1g&cbp=12,359.35,,1,-3.33&z=17
http://maps.google.si/maps?hl=sl&ll..._CPV_Rxjvde33cxdKw&cbp=12,171.14,,0,1.17&z=17
http://maps.google.si/maps?hl=sl&ll...Jt6ttw15OgDXJS1Tw&cbp=12,101.75,,0,-3.47&z=18


----------



## hofburg

nice^



italystf said:


> EDIT: my links point to maps.google.*si* because I navigated Google Maps from Verso's link.


no need to apologize  you are encouraged to continue doing so :lol:


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> I was wondering if there are other places in the world where 2 road tunnels cross each other at different levels.
> http://maps.google.si/maps?hl=sl&ll=45.635512,13.790224&spn=0.007847,0.021136&t=m&z=16


Interesting. I thought it was the same on the highest Slovenian road, but it turns out it isn't. Still, it's an interesting mishmash built by Italians.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> I was wondering if there are other places in the world where 2 road tunnels cross each other at different levels.
> http://maps.google.si/maps?hl=sl&ll=45.635512,13.790224&spn=0.007847,0.021136&t=m&z=16


Here you are:

http://goo.gl/maps/q4ouo

http://goo.gl/maps/q2kBF


----------



## keber

Another in Genova:
https://maps.google.si/maps?q=salò,...r=Salò,+Brescia,+Lombardija,+Italija&t=m&z=17

Exit Celle Ligure on A10:
https://maps.google.si/maps?q=salò,...r=Salò,+Brescia,+Lombardija,+Italija&t=m&z=17

And I believe that there are more such examples on Italian motorways.

Also new railway Genova-Ventimiglia crosses underground under many A10 tunnels. Tunnels on different levels are not very rare actually and also nothing special in engineering sense.


----------



## brick84

*Highway A19 Palermo-Catania (Sicily)*


_in province of Enna_









by  calabrese on Flickr


----------



## italystf

This highway is known for have been built on on long (and thus expensive) viaducts even in relatively-flat areas where they aren't needed. It probably happened because ANAS wanted to give more job to some "friend" construction companies and consequentely the construction costs paid with public money skyrocketted. hno:

However, very beautiful landscape, I travelled from Catania to Caltanissetta in 2009 and remember those stunning views, much different than the green Alps and northern Appennines.


----------



## brick84

*A18 Messina-Catania*

_Etna eruction effects on the highway in the last days_






www.livesicilia.it


----------



## RV

Rome's road network seems really prehistoric... What is the AADT of the most congested 1+1-laned roads, for example Via Cassia?


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*

_New open of Galleria Piale and Rosarno junction_



JollyRoger71 said:


>


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What is the status of the A3 widening between Napoli and Pompeii-Est? It was suppose to be completed by 2013.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I also wonder when the next stage of the A31 opens to traffic, a couple of months ago "May" was rumored.


----------



## g.spinoza

A31 should be on schedule. About the A3, I have no clue. You can find many info in the news about Salerno-Reggio, but very little about Napoli-Salerno.


----------



## italystf

Weird banner today....


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> I also wonder when the next stage of the A31 opens to traffic, a couple of months ago "May" was rumored.


It won't open before the end of this year. They had problems with toxic industrial waste illegally buried below the sandbed. It was discovered because a dog died after drinking some water from a nearby stream.
The section Vicenza - Longare Montegaldella is already open since last September.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Weird banner today....


Why?


----------



## hofburg

great banner!! :cheers:


----------



## Verso

It's hiding in this old post.


----------



## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

_New junction of "Maremonti" (province of Siracusa) - work in progress_


----------



## italystf

The motorway along the southern shore of Sicily, from Rosolini to Gela and possibly further west to Agrigento and Trapani will remain a dream for at least a couple of decades.


----------



## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> The motorway along the southern shore of Sicily, from Rosolini to Gela and possibly further west to Agrigento and Trapani will remain a dream for at least a couple of decades.


Do you think so? I guess they will push works at least to Ragusa.


----------



## Eddard Stark

To Ragusa the project is ready and funds as well


----------



## brick84

*SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta*

_works near Canicattì (Agrigento)_






















_Serra Cazzola viaduct_








source: http://cmcgruppo.com


----------



## Eddard Stark

Great work! and it will finally connect Agrigento to the highway system of Sicily

After this work is completed focus can really be on making a new "autostrada" on the southern shore of Sicily and than the network will be rather complete


----------



## Suburbanist

Eddard Stark said:


> After this work is completed focus can really be on making a new "autostrada" on the southern shore of Sicily and than *the network will be rather complete*


No network on Sicilia can be barely considered "complete" if the most important link remains broken, if you know what I mean.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> No network on Sicilia can be barely considered "complete" if the most important link remains broken, if you know what I mean.


Do you mean the lack of an outer Palermo beltway, connecting directly the A20 and the A29?


----------



## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> Do you mean the lack of an outer Palermo beltway, connecting directly the A20 and the A29?


No.

I mean _il Ponte_ :banana:


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> No.
> 
> I mean _il Ponte_ :banana:


Ok, but it isn't related with the completness of network _inside_ Sicily. However I don't think that it's already time for it: the South has more urgent priorities and some more seismical\geological research would be better.


----------



## Suburbanist

Sicilia has a decent network if you consider the 1+1 expressways.

It only got road infrastructure very late in the game. The advantage is that they did it right first time.

There is a rare (in Europe) full cover-leaf interchange between two 1+1 expressways over there: http://goo.gl/maps/9l0gK


----------



## italystf

Yup, Sicilian network is pretty extensive considering that is an island (as comparison, Corsica and Crete don't have any expressway while Sardinia has "expressways" that have some at-grade junctions). The main problem of Sicilian roads is the lack of mainteinance. Some highways aren't repaved in decades, markings are hardly visible and invasive plants grow on the hard shoulders and on the median (with consequent fires in during the dry season, if morons throw cig butts out of their cars).

There is this cloverleaf in Friuli, connecting not two 1+1 expressways, but 2 roads that are not even grade-separated. I think it's even rarer. And it's not even new, since it appears in my father's 1979 road atlas. Ok, it has only 6 instead of 8 ramps (going N-W and W-S isn't possible) but it's still a cloverleaf.


----------



## Verso

This is also quite unique.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> This is also quite unique.


It looks like to the A4-A23 and A14-A16 interchanges in Italy.

Here you have a block of flats inside a cloverleaf.

Also this interchange has a pretty unusual shape.


----------



## italystf

The A4-RA13 Monfalcone - Trieste have many strange interchanges, that differ to the usual trumpet interchange thypical on tolled motorways.

Duino exit
You can exit only if you came from Venice and you can enter only towards Venice.

Sgonico exit
Same as Duino

Prosecco exit
You cannot enter towards Venice (you must enter at Sgonico)

Trebiciano exit
It's probably the weidest ever, you can entry\exit from every direction but there's not an underpass\overpass.


----------



## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> Yup, Sicilian network is pretty extensive considering that is an island (as comparison, Corsica and Crete don't have any expressway while Sardinia has "expressways" that have some at-grade junctions). The main problem of Sicilian roads is the lack of mainteinance. Some highways aren't repaved in decades, markings are hardly visible and invasive plants grow on the hard shoulders and on the median (with consequent fires in during the dry season, if morons throw cig butts out of their cars).


I think what happened is that most roads there were abysmal well into the 1950s. Sicilia never had the "good" old routes that existed all the way from Lecce to Ventimiglia.

So they just started building modern routes altogether.

Basilicata also has a handful of good 1+1 expressways.

There are some stories about certain routes in Sicilia requiring army intervention because they eviscerated the domains of certain _mafiosi_ that loved their isolation and vantage points to control their disgusting criminal fielfdoms.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> There are some stories about certain routes in Sicilia requiring army intervention because they eviscerated the domains of certain _mafiosi_ that loved their isolation and vantage points to control their disgusting criminal fielfdoms.


In the movie "I 100 passi" they say that the A29 was build with useless curves to avoid crossing lands that belonged to "somebody".


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

This exit is peculiar too


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Millesimo exit on A6

It is just linked to the Southbound, then to in and out the Northbound you have to do this way


----------



## italystf

Tarvisio has 2 exits on the A23: in Tarvisio Sud you can exit only if you come from Italy and enter only towards Italy. In Tarvisio Nord you can only exit if you come from Austria and enter towards Austria.

Interesting is also the exit of Fadalto on the A27: th two carriaggeways are roughly half a km apart each other with the SS51 running in between. You can exit only if you come from Vence and enter only towards Venice.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
The Dervio Exit on SS36 is interesting as well


----------



## CNGL

italystf said:


> Tarvisio has 2 exits on the A23: in Tarvisio Sud you can exit only if you come from Italy and enter only towards Italy. In Tarvisio Nord you can only exit if you come from Austria and enter towards Austria.


I find funny that both Tarvisio exits, despite being labelled Nord (North) and Sud (South), are roughly at the same latitude. I would change Tarvisio Nord to Tarvisio Est and Tarvisio Sud to Tarvisio Ovest.

Same goes to both Cerignola exits, they are at the same longitude (In my map it seems that Cerignola Est, East, is sightly WEST of Cerignola Ovest, West). I would change the E55 exit to Cerignola Nord and the E842 one to Cerignola Sud.


----------



## italystf

CNGL said:


> I find funny that both Tarvisio exits, despite being labelled Nord (North) and Sud (South), are roughly at the same latitude. I would change Tarvisio Nord to Tarvisio Est and Tarvisio Sud to Tarvisio Ovest.
> 
> Same goes to both Cerignola exits, they are at the same longitude (In my map it seems that Cerignola Est, East, is sightly WEST of Cerignola Ovest, West). I would change the E45 exit to Cerignola Nord and the E842 one to Cerignola Sud.


I think that they choosed Tarvisio North and Tarvisio South instead of East and West because the A23/E55 is a N-S route. I don't understand about Cerignola East and West, North and South would be correct there.
BTW, the A14 is E55, not E45 (however nobody uses E45 and E842, just A14 and A16).

In Cerignola there is one of the very few places where two motorways\motorway-like roads cross each other with no junction between them (A14 and SS16).
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Ceri...&hnear=Cerignola,+Foggia,+Puglia,+Italia&z=17
Until few years ago there was another case between the A13 and the SS434 in Veneto near Rovigo, but later they built a junction.


----------



## italystf

I think that the region Puglia is very interesting to see on Google Maps\Street View because it has many expressway and grade-separated junctions between local roads.
This is probably one of the largest roundabout in the world.

This expressway near Taranto was never completed in 40 years.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bari...d=ORbtyGxh6AgZimZUm5nSEQ&cbp=12,26.68,,0,5.21
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bari...d=OaTSW4EsxaXXg5bcpiMvLA&cbp=12,14.98,,0,5.66
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bari...=x5dt3jUB9e6RFCvl-c6ejw&cbp=12,225.87,,0,2.38
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bari...c_bL1KZamsCTygMUXi4iiA&cbp=12,174.24,,0,-0.82
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bari...mclutp2280XEHT3V3oa82A&cbp=12,156.06,,0,-0.73
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bari...=GMsGWQjLPRftGX5c3yTuSA&cbp=12,194.33,,0,6.76
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bari...=gqjph9hLfqbVB6JkgWvStw&cbp=12,22.48,,0,-3.11

This is the Manduria bypass, also abandoned
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=manduria&hl=it&ll=40.430714,17.529674&spn=0.017215,0.042272&sll=40.522934,17.379341&sspn=0.137534,0.338173&t=h&hnear=Manduria,+Taranto,+Puglia,+Italia&z=15&layer=c&cbll=40.430681,17.529885&panoid=1haYSFDLKyY7lCzFmAVCuQ&cbp=12,277.22,,0,10.42
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mand...d=RQnWSlMwEj5n4sfBLk53pQ&cbp=12,98.13,,0,1.55
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mand...=CLSXL_mRhTUPNM2n1an5fQ&cbp=12,308.65,,0,0.91
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mand...d=q9SLn3k4ag4KTG7zaY5HLA&cbp=12,75.47,,0,0.18
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mand...6Sgl0DPwIzxlfK2Ec2gpcA&cbp=12,275.03,,0,-6.94
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mand...=EF6Apm8jNWppaWPxuMSwsg&cbp=12,86.35,,0,-2.56
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mand...VqLy7m3p-9yhDNEad0PXNw&cbp=12,125.27,,0,-0.73
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mand...q6xFa5KBGEPuCr6CK52l4w&cbp=12,291.11,,0,-4.48
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mand...d=oU5ETEDC9fMSFGItl7IKmg&cbp=12,120.97,,0,4.2
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mand...=uG1Y4LH2P2zsngHMzCWj8g&cbp=12,114.03,,0,0.73
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mand...=9YT4THMSG5GAbOsnmJrlGg&cbp=12,124.08,,0,2.83
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mand...=b_nAMuXoQGBdfrrgr_4SKQ&cbp=12,120.15,,0,-6.3


----------



## italystf

Unusually small cloverleaf in Matera
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mate...086&t=h&hnear=Matera,+Basilicata,+Italia&z=18


----------



## italystf

Abandoned highway between Campania and Basilicata
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cali...=9E_bp0bpk9No1DadsB-5XQ&cbp=12,225.23,,0,4.57
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cali...8dG3B3nmj-atmcmXJAJziA&cbp=12,103.07,,0,-3.84
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cali...=9G1jJmCrFsfp8XvDqkPQng&cbp=12,103.61,,0,9.78
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cali...KSJ2csqDNWtt9vwbqSBQNA&cbp=12,162.64,,0,-3.84
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cali...=lMRALWtiTzhQ0HzHtaRTfQ&cbp=12,76.28,,0,-3.87
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cali...pv38gvsM7YQExmsEUxOZHw&cbp=12,111.65,,0,-7.86

Some parts are open:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cali...=LUifZOuTlHA2N8Ygy4lFIA&cbp=12,195.44,,0,4.11
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cali...=QSRX84KQ82OREXpm3UvNag&cbp=12,292.29,,0,9.87
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cali...=ZhU_Luo1Y4gjS3GC_1bH5A&cbp=12,91.15,,0,11.97


----------



## Luki_SL

^^On the open parts of this higway, there are unfinished construction works: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cali...fjWd48-B8RpILOUeu7w&cbp=12,9.43,,0,14.12&z=15 
It`s very interesting the (dead) end of this expressway : https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cali...HzS3O3ch_dT8JSEYKQ&cbp=12,126.39,,0,8.01&z=18


----------



## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> In Cerignola there is one of the very few places where two motorways\motorway-like roads cross each other with no junction between them (A14 and SS16).
> https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Ceri...&hnear=Cerignola,+Foggia,+Puglia,+Italia&z=17


I think this is on purpose: it makes deviation from A14 (tolled) to SS16 for drivers going to point along the coast less attractive.


----------



## italystf

Luki_SL said:


> It`s very interesting the (dead) end of this expressway : https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cali...HzS3O3ch_dT8JSEYKQ&cbp=12,126.39,,0,8.01&z=18


It's not a dead end, i's connected with another main road through a short unpaved road.


----------



## brick84

brick84 said:


> *Messina (Sicily)*
> 
> _*Junctions of 'Giostra and Annunziata'* _
> 
> _Next opening (15 May) a part of Giostra junction (in direction to Palermo and Catania)_


Today


















*by TRINACRIA FELIX*
























































source: www.tempostretto.it


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Where is this exactly?


Here: http://goo.gl/maps/pfoKK


----------



## g.spinoza

Chris, that spot was a rather unfortunate one: first works were tendered in 2001 but the contract was annulled on 2nd January 2002; works were re-tendered but again the contract was annulled on 18th January 2008; this is the third time works are tendered (October 2011). Let's hope third time's the charm (completion is due next November).



ChrisZwolle said:


> What the hell happened here on A3 in Catanzaro province? They are rebuilding the east carriageway since at least 2001, according to historic Google Earth imagery. It appears that they have built an improvised second carriageway here.
> 
> 2001:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2004:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2007:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2010:


----------



## g.spinoza

A video I made yesterday from the train, about BreBeMi/TEEM works between Treviglio and Melzo:


----------



## brick84

*Video from Giostra junction in Messina (Sicily)*






_*by Gualtiero*_


----------



## hofburg

few photos from future A34


2013-05-22-1016.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


2013-05-22-1017.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

2013-05-22-1019.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


2013-05-22-1030.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

2013-05-22-1033.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## italystf

A33 Asti - Cuneo
No new-design fivers on the automatic cash lane.
http://www.lastampa.it/2013/05/22/e...inque-euro-LG34aMVWYSgKmr8MPRq09H/pagina.html


----------



## Verso

12.5, 13.5, and 14.5 km to destinations? Really?


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> 12.5, 13.5, and 14.5 km to destinations? Really?


The "autoporto" is closer, since it's just off the motorway, then Gorizia and Nova Gorica. However .5km is nothing when talking about a 30k town, depending the place you're going it may be 12 or 17 km.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> A33 Asti - Cuneo
> No new-design fivers on the automatic cash lane.
> http://www.lastampa.it/2013/05/22/e...inque-euro-LG34aMVWYSgKmr8MPRq09H/pagina.html


Just a matter of time. 9 out of 10 automatic tellers in Italy still don't accept new notes:

http://www.leggo.it/NEWS/ITALIA/banconote_nuove_5_euro_distributori/notizie/282613.shtml


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## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*

_Sfalassà viaduct _


7 May 2013








source: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Viadotto_Sfalassa,_autostrada_A3.jpg


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A4 Venezia - Trieste*

How far along is the widening of A4 to 2x3 lanes between Mestre and Palmanova?


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ You can watch here the state of works. It's in Italian but should be understandable. Apparently works are ongoing only on the first lot Quarto d'Altino-San Donà.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Thanks. There is a lot of work to be done, the majority hasn't even started construction. 

Also, do you know how far along the modernization of A4 between Novara and Milano is? They are supposedly adding shoulders to that motorway.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Not many news: works should be completed between Greggio and Novara Ovest, and ongoing between Novara Ovest and Marcallo-Mesero. Works, including the "variante" of Bernate Ticino, which involves moving the Autostrada on a new alignment, should be completed in 2016.


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> How far along is the widening of A4 to 2x3 lanes between Mestre and Palmanova?


Last weekend I went over Quarto d'Altino-San Donà section (no pictures as I was on the bus). 15% completion on website is not correct - more like 70% for roadworks and 90% for objects. New overpasses are done, close to being finished is also new westbound bridge over Piave river. I don't know, if they plan to demolish old Piave bridge and construct new one or they will merge 4 lanes on current bridge for eastbound traffic. Also quite some asphalt has been laid already.

However I have some strange feeling that widening further to Palmanova will proceed quite slowly.


----------



## darko06

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ You can watch here the state of works. It's in Italian but should be understandable. Apparently works are ongoing only on the first lot Quarto d'Altino-San Donà.


Nice and comprehensive map, especially for Villese - Gorizia section.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Last weekend I went over Quarto d'Altino-San Donà section (no pictures as I was on the bus). 15% completion on website is not correct - more like 70% for roadworks and 90% for objects. New overpasses are done, close to being finished is also new westbound bridge over Piave river. I don't know, if they plan to demolish old Piave bridge and construct new one or they will merge 4 lanes on current bridge for eastbound traffic. Also quite some asphalt has been laid already.
> 
> However I have some strange feeling that widening further to Palmanova will proceed quite slowly.


Well, overpasses are the first thing they build when enlarging a motorway.
According to this website the section should be ready by Q2 2015.

AFAIK the bridge over Piave will be demolished and rebuilt.


----------



## Mauz®

Massive! :nuts:hno:


----------



## g.spinoza

Bad weather is delaying the opening of the second stretch of A31 "Valdastico" south, from Montegaldella-Longare to Albettone-Barbarano. This section should have been opened in May, but according to Attilio Schneck, president of "Autostrada Brescia-Padova SpA", it can't be opened before end of June-15 July, tops.










http://www.ilgiornaledivicenza.it/s...75_la_pioggia_rallenta_lapertura_della31_sud/


----------



## Tom 958

g.spinoza said:


> This *should* be the project:


Thanks for prompting me to take a closer look at Ancona. What an interesting road system! Tunnels, super 2's and weird little interchanges are all over the place. Roads around here are so boring by comparison.


----------



## g.spinoza

Tom 958 said:


> Thanks for prompting me to take a closer look at Ancona. What an interesting road system! Tunnels, super 2's and weird little interchanges are all over the place. Roads around here are so boring by comparison.


Albeit small (100k inh) Ancona is a nightmare to drive in. I've never done it myself, apart from going to Ancona Nord interchange to the railway station, without going into the inner city. Ancona is located between the sea and a complex system of hills and mountains (Monte Conero above all), some of which prone to landslide - like the one in '82 which erased an entire borough. Tunnels, narrow roads and steep ascents are the norm.


----------



## x-type

yep, Ancona is really weird to drive. for instance, following indications to the port from an exit Ancona sud, you will end up here. the feeling is precious: after toll booths you see really nice indications to the port, you enter to the city, but then suddenly you find yourself in some weird center-like part of the city after which you come to that place indicating end of Ancona icard:
i really don't know why there are no indications to port using Asse nord-sud :dunno:


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Albeit small (100k inh) Ancona is a nightmare to drive in. I've never done it myself, apart from going to Ancona Nord interchange to the railway station, without going into the inner city. Ancona is located between the sea and a complex system of hills and mountains (Monte Conero above all), some of which prone to landslide - l*ike the one in '82 which erased an entire borough*. Tunnels, narrow roads and steep ascents are the norm.


What a disaster hno:


----------



## brick84

*Highway 'A18 Siracusa-Gela'*

_next to Avola (Siracusa)_












_junction of Avola_


----------



## Renzokuken

brick84 said:


> *'Giostra-Annunziata' junctions - Messina (Sicily)*
> 
> _view_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by _Gualtiero Palermo_


In my opinion this junction is a massive idiocy, I would like to know what Messina locals think of that concrete hell.

And let's not forget that all that ugly junction was done for nothing -- it would have served as junction for the Ponte sullo Stretto, but the project was dropped.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ The bridge will be ultimately built.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The bridge will be ultimately built.


This is just wishful thinking.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think it will be constructed at some point as well. Personally I really like the Norwegian concept of a floating cable-stayed or suspension bridge. That is cheaper than one mega span and appears more flexible during earthquakes. The offshore industry uses this technique for decades.


----------



## hofburg

but this juction was also planned as an exit? at least it looks like that on the satellite view.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think it will be constructed at some point as well. Personally I really like the Norwegian concept of a floating cable-stayed or suspension bridge. That is cheaper than one mega span and appears more flexible during earthquakes. The offshore industry uses this technique for decades.


I bet nothing will be built in the next half century.



hofburg said:


> but this juction was also planned as an exit? at least it looks like that on the satellite view.


Yes, but some structural problems on a viaduct are delaying the exit ramps opening.


----------



## italystf

When A3 will be completed, the SS106 expressway too, when Sicily will have properly maintained highways, when there will be a fast train between Salerno and Reggio Calabria, when Naples waste will be recycled and disposed properly, when schools, hospitals and universities in southern Italy will work as good as in the rest of western Europe, when the government and institutions will really start to fight corruption and organized crime, yes, the south will need the bridge. You don't buy a gold Rolex if you don't have money to eat...


----------



## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> When A3 will be completed, the SS106 expressway too, when Sicily will have properly maintained highways, when there will be a fast train between Salerno and Reggio Calabria, when Naples waste will be recycled and disposed properly, when schools, hospitals and universities in southern Italy will work as good as in the rest of western Europe, when the government and institutions will really start to fight corruption and organized crime, yes, the south will need the bridge. You don't buy a gold Rolex if you don't have money to eat...


Had your logic be followed to the heart, we wouldn't even have A3 to begin with.

Infrastructure can act as a catalyst for development and growth


----------



## brick84

Suburbanist said:


> Had your logic be followed to the heart, we wouldn't even have A3 to begin with.
> 
> Infrastructure can act as a catalyst for development and growth


:applause:


----------



## brick84

*A18 Catania-Messina*

_View from Taormina (Me)_










 THUebert on Flickr


----------



## Suburbanist

awesome view 

The Taromina exit is really an interesting one.

By the way, I'm not following the last hiccups by CAS (it just annoys me all this political stone-throwing that goes with CAS and its highways/projects). Has CAS sorted out their organizational mess?

I so badly want some foreign toll road operator to takeover all CAS assets


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think it will be constructed at some point as well. Personally I really like the Norwegian concept of a floating cable-stayed or suspension bridge. That is cheaper than one mega span and appears more flexible during earthquakes. The offshore industry uses this technique for decades.


can you post some location wheree it could be found?


----------



## ChrisZwolle




----------



## g.spinoza

Strait of Messina is quite different from Sognefjord, currents are very strong there. I think a floating bridge design has been shelved due to this problem.


----------



## brick84

Suburbanist said:


> awesome view
> 
> The Taromina exit is really an interesting one.
> 
> By the way, I'm not following the last hiccups by CAS (it just annoys me all this political stone-throwing that goes with CAS and its highways/projects). Has CAS sorted out their organizational mess?
> 
> I so badly want some foreign toll road operator to takeover all CAS assets


Unlikely to change something.

The only solution is to delete the CAS and replace it with a body more serious (even Anas). But it is only a dream. 



P.S.
In this month contract for lots Rosolini-Modica motorway Siracusa-Gela


----------



## g.spinoza

Works on A12, Civitavecchia-Tarquinia lot:







And the works for Albinia junction:






Thanks to marco1963 on the Italian forum


----------



## Mauz®

Some pics of the "new" (rebuilt) service area in Lainate (A8/A9)...


----------



## Renzokuken

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The bridge will be ultimately built.


It won't.
Sicilians don't even have drinking water served in all homes and you think this rotten state is going to finance the construction of the most useless (and expensive) bridge in the world?


----------



## Renzokuken

g.spinoza said:


> And the works for Albinia junction:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks to marco1963 on the Italian forum


Been right there few days ago (spending the weekend at the Argentario peninsula). They are already mounting the bridge.

Btw there's no other visible work on the SS1 Aurelia between Grosseto Sud (end of "Variante Aurelia") and Albinia.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ But is it lack of money that preclude proper water delivery systems? I'm not entirely sure... If there are just a couple isolated cases, that could be easily solved.

I'm mentioning that because as far as I can remember this exact excuse has been used over, and over, to say that nothing big should be build in the island. From high-speed rail links to airports to highways to the bridge. It is always the "Sicilians who don't have running water". How many of them actually don't have running water, and of those, how many are living in legally authorized buildings? 

I think this argument was thrown around since the first major infrastructure projects built there in the 1970s.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> It is always the "Sicilians who don't have running water". How many of them actually don't have running water,


It depends on the provinces. AFAIK, Agrigento, Caltanissetta, Palermo and Trapani have running water only few hours in a day, few days in a week (especially in summer). The other provinces should be more or less ok.



> and of those, how many are living in legally authorized buildings?


Some years ago a research found 150 thousand illegal buildings in Sicily. But that's an understatement: many others are "legal" now but weren't so when they were built, because many amnesties "legalized" illegal buildings.


----------



## Renzokuken

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ But is it lack of money that preclude proper water delivery systems? I'm not entirely sure... If there are just a couple isolated cases, that could be easily solved.
> 
> I'm mentioning that because as far as I can remember this exact excuse has been used over, and over, to say that nothing big should be build in the island. From high-speed rail links to airports to highways to the bridge. It is always the "Sicilians who don't have running water". How many of them actually don't have running water, and of those, how many are living in legally authorized buildings?
> 
> I think this argument was thrown around since the first major infrastructure projects built there in the 1970s.


That's not the point wether the "lack of water" argument is entirely true or not.
The point is, Siciliy lacks of important modern infrastructures, things that are much more prioritary that the Ponte sullo Stretto.
Have you ever tried to get a passenger train from Messina to Palermo?
Well, it takes something like 3h30min at best. On a single, non-electrified line.
And let's not talk about other itineraries.

So, in my opinion, that Messina junction is not only ugly (a valley completely ruined by concrete), but a bestiality because it is a terrible waste of money, money that could be used for some more useful primary infrastructures.


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> It depends on the provinces. AFAIK, Agrigento, Caltanissetta, Palermo and Trapani have running water only few hours in a day, few days in a week (especially in summer). The other provinces should be more or less ok.


But the problem there is more related to sourcing water than having distribution systems, isn't it? There are endless court battles surrounding purposes to build reservoirs, they always overplay the earthquake risk card, and more recently proposals for desalination plants have been torpedoed by Legambiente extemists. 

Then, you had as a result people building enormous private water holders of up to 5m³ or more. Which will further strain the system.




Renzokuken said:


> That's not the point wether the "lack of water" argument is entirely true or not.
> The point is, Siciliy lacks of important modern infrastructures, things that are much more prioritary that the Ponte sullo Stretto.
> Have you ever tried to get a passenger train from Messina to Palermo?
> Well, it takes something like 3h30min at best. On a single, non-electrified line.
> And let's not talk about other itineraries.
> 
> So, in my opinion, that Messina junction is not only ugly (a valley completely ruined by concrete), but a bestiality because it is a terrible waste of money, money that could be used for some more useful primary infrastructures.


The only train I ever took in the island was between Siracusa and Catania. I also traveled on the Etna railway once. Other than that, I've covered the island by road pretty well.

In any case, this is usually a problematic argument because the source of money to build the bridge (60% private money) might not be available for other projects.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> But the problem there is more related to sourcing water than having distribution systems, isn't it? There are endless court battles surrounding purposes to build reservoirs, they always overplay the earthquake risk card, and more recently proposals for desalination plants have been torpedoed by Legambiente extemists.
> 
> Then, you had as a result people building enormous private water holders of up to 5m³ or more. Which will further strain the system.


I think the significant part of problem is due to leaks in the pipe system. But yes, lack of sources is important.


----------



## brick84

Renzokuken said:


> It won't.
> Sicilians don't even have drinking water served in all homes and you think this rotten state is going to finance t*he construction of the most useless (and expensive) bridge in the world?*


??

False.





Renzokuken said:


> That's not the point wether the "lack of water" argument is entirely true or not.
> The point is, Siciliy lacks of important modern infrastructures, things that are much more prioritary that the Ponte sullo Stretto.
> Have you ever tried to get a passenger train from Messina to Palermo?
> Well, it takes something like 3h30min at best. *On a single, non-electrified line.*
> And let's not talk about other itineraries.


mmmh....

situation, right now:










_near Falcone (province of Messina)_









_Terme Vigliatore (Messina)_












Renzokuken said:


> So, in my opinion, that Messina junction is not only ugly (a valley completely ruined by concrete), but a bestiality because it is a terrible waste of money, money that could be used for some more useful primary infrastructures.


Ok, this is an opinion shared.

But i'm not agree.


----------



## javimix19

Hello, I'm from the Basque Country (Spain) and I like a lot Italy, specially I want to met the south (Campania, Adriatic, Sicily...) Perhaps one day...

- I have only one question (now, perhaps in the future more): I read in english wikipedia that motorway A-3 is refurbishing between Napoli and Calabria. Also I read that the rhytme of that refurbishement is slow and expensive. Well I know why, but my question is: it is already finished? if not, how long before? 
Yes, I know my english is not the best. Grazzie


----------



## g.spinoza

javimix19 said:


> Hello, I'm from the Basque Country (Spain) and I like a lot Italy, specially I want to met the south (Campania, Adriatic, Sicily...) Perhaps one day...
> 
> - I have only one question (now, perhaps in the future more): I read in english wikipedia that motorway A-3 is refurbishing between Napoli and Calabria. Also I read that the rhytme of that refurbishement is slow and expensive. Well I know why, but my question is: it is already finished? if not, how long before?
> Yes, I know my english is not the best. Grazzie


Circa 350 km out of 440 are refurbished and complete.


----------



## Renzokuken

brick84 said:


> situation, right now:


Apparently the situation is better now.
But I'm quite sure the electrification is recent (e.g. < 5 years), and the times have stetched.
Few years back it was a pain in the a**.
And by the way, notice that 2/3 of sicily are not served by direct lines but only by local lines (trapani, agrigento, siracusa).


----------



## g.spinoza

Renzokuken said:


> Apparently the situation is better now.
> But I'm quite sure the electrification is recent (e.g. < 5 years), and the times have stetched.


According to Wikipedia, the electrification of Messina-Palermo was completed on 15 October 1955 :dunno:


----------



## Renzokuken

g.spinoza said:


> According to Wikipedia, the electrification of Messina-Palermo was completed on 15 October 1955 :dunno:


completed or started?


----------



## g.spinoza

Renzokuken said:


> completed or started?





http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrovia_Palermo-Messina said:


> Tra il 1951 e il 1955 si ebbe l'elettrificazione della linea a cui fece seguito il raddoppio tra Palermo e Fiumetorto tratto in comune con la linea per Agrigento e Catania.
> 
> Dal 15 ottobre 1955 la trazione sull'intera linea è elettrica a 3000 Volt corrente continua.


Between 1951 and 1955 the line was electrified, then the line was doubled bewteen Palermo and Fiumetorto (stretch shared with line to Agrigento and Catania).

Since 15 October 1955 the line is completely electrified (3000 Volts, direct current)


----------



## hofburg

nice distance sign


2013-06-11-1101.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr

double shoulder 


2013-06-11-1100.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

Those distances... :cripes:


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> They are absolutly everywhere. In Holland alone there are thousands of Italian camper vans on the road...


This surprises me, a lot...


----------



## javimix19

Road_UK said:


> And on top of that Italians are almost au pair now with Germans and Dutch travellers. They are absolutly everywhere. In Holland alone there are thousands of Italian camper vans on the road...


Also in Spain, and that is good to tourism. Last week I spoke with a pretty girls from Milano in my city (San Sebastian) They asked me about a place in the city center. They were in a van in the outskirts of the city (I think with their boyfriends of course :lol


----------



## g.spinoza

Spain is popular among Italians. The Netherlands (outside Amsterdam)... well, is not 

(The Netherlands IS or the Netherlands ARE?!?)


----------



## g.spinoza

Spain is popular among Italians. The Netherlands (outside Amsterdam)... well, is not 

(The Netherlands IS or the Netherlands ARE?!?)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Netherlands in Dutch is _Nederland_, singular.


----------



## hofburg

*new road Gradisca - Mariano del Friuli*

this is the entire route I took https://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=R...wIdi3HJAA&t=h&mra=dpe&mrsp=1&sz=13&via=1&z=11

between Gradisca and Mariano the new link is missing on Google maps


DSC01981 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC01982 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC01986 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC01987 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC01988 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC01985 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC01989 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC01992 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC01994 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC01998 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC01999 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02000 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

this is old road already


DSC02002 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02005 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

road from Gorizia joining us


DSC02007 by hofburgh4, on Flickr

famous Manzano chair


DSC02012 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

expressway junction Udine sud


DSC02016 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02018 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02020 by hofburgh4, on Flickr

(it's not the motorway, yet)


DSC02026 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02027 by hofburgh4, on Flickr

Udine sud toll


DSC02028 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


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## hofburg

DSC02030 by hofburgh4, on Flickr

A23


DSC02033 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02034 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02035 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02036 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02039 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02041 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02042 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02044 by hofburgh4, on Flickr

tangenziale SS13


DSC02048 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## Sunfuns

Road_UK said:


> And on top of that Italians are almost au pair now with Germans and Dutch travellers. They are absolutly everywhere. In Holland alone there are thousands of Italian camper vans on the road...


I hadn't noticed that. Of course Switzerland doesn't count (you could get by in Basel with just Italian!), but elsewhere I have traveled recently there haven't been many Italians, French or Spanish. It's Germans and Russians which seem to be everywhere, but then again I speak those languages so perhaps I simply notice them more.


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## italystf

hofburg said:


> DSC01989 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


Is SR305 bis or SS305 dir? I can't see from the pic and online news said only that the 7,5km Gradisca - Cormons road opened on 12-06-13 without mentioning the number.
The FVG Strade S.p.A. official website was last updated on 9 May. :lol:


----------



## hofburg

I don't know


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> (The Netherlands IS or the Netherlands ARE?!?)


It's both, but usually "is".


Nice pics, didn't know there was a river Versa in FVG.


----------



## hofburg

I don't know if it's large enough for a river, but I followed it on gmaps, I think its source is in Brda  but it's not clear. however that bridge looks huge, at least for a such a small river?


----------



## Verso

Looks like it's called "Birša" in Slovenian, and yes, its source is in Slovenia. But the village Versa is called "Vrša" in Slovenian.


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## brick84

*Driving next to Agrigento, from SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta (Sicily)*











by me

from here: http://maps.google.it/maps?q=ss+640...&sa=X&ei=WznBUYqLN4jWPdPDgKgO&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg


----------



## zerro

hofburg said:


> however that bridge looks huge, at least for a such a small river?


Hehe it's really "king size" bridge  We can say that FVG (Autovie Venete) has planty of money for road bridges. At least if we look that massive roundabout at Gorizia, or viaduct at Villesse on RA17 (A34).  
And best of the best, roundabout is still U/C for more than 3 years...


----------



## g.spinoza

Today the tender for projecting, building and managing the A22 extension from A1 to Sassuolo (15 km) has been awarded to Autostrada del Brennero SpA and its subcontractors Impresa Pizzarotti S.p.A., Coopsette Soc. Coop. and others.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It looks like it would run parallel to a 4-lane superstrada. 

What kind of industry are they into in the Sassoulo area? There's are quite a number of industrial estates along the foothills there which appear to be in the same kind of industry.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> It looks like it would run parallel to a 4-lane superstrada.


You're right, I didn't know that



> What kind of industry are they into in the Sassoulo area? There's are quite a number of industrial estates along the foothills there which appear to be in the same kind of industry.


Sassuolo is leader in Italy in producing ceramics.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Makes you wonder why we need to build this highway actually...tangenziale di Modena already gets to Sassuolo. I really don't know


----------



## zerro

Why not build it? Exit Modena nord on A1 is to congested, especillay with freight traffic going to Sassuolo. And tangenziale di Modena... pavement on this superstrada is in catastrophic condition, especially in section towards Sassuolo.
Sometimes I'm thinking why Modena doesn't have exit, let's say "Modena centro", where tangenziale goes over the A1!?


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## ChrisZwolle

Typical crazy route to get from one road to another:


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## friedrichstrasse

The junction between A1 and Tangenziale is the only crazy part of this route.
Anyway I've seen many worst junctions built in the last decade...


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## g.spinoza

It's a junction between a tolled and a non-tolled road. It can't be direct and it has to be a little curvy.


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## friedrichstrasse

It's too curvy anyway, like every new junction.


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## Alqaszar

This "Italian style" junctionplaning has some disadvantages, but also some nice plus sides.

It's of course sometimes complicated to get to the main route, but once aour are on it, local traffic won't bother you as much as it would e. g. here in germany, where junctions are close together and lotz of traffic uses the Autobahn for just going one or two junctions and thus hindering the non-local traffic.

I like the coillector-road concepts like Verona or Udine has them, with parallel, untolled lines for the local traffic. Milan doesen't have them, and driving the A 4 from Novara to Bergamo is consequently often a mess.

Of course, if traffic becomes to dense, the best concept of road construction will fail.


----------



## g.spinoza

- A31 "Valdastico south": Montegaldella-Longare / Albettone-Barbarano stretch (7.9 km) will open next 26th June, at 3 pm.

- A4, third lane in Veneto: according to Autovie Venete, works are going slow because of many thefts in construction sites. In Noventa di Piave construction site alone, thieves stole 400k € worth of equipment (batteries, diesel oil, two excavators, many generators).


----------



## MichiH

Eddard Stark said:


> Makes you wonder why we need to build this highway actually...tangenziale di Modena already gets to Sassuolo. I really don't know


I am also wondering. The new A22 will only improve the connection to the north and to the west, but not to the east and not to _Modena_! Is the traffic from _Sassuolo_ to _Verona_/_Parma_ so high? Or are there plans for a further extension to the sea, to _Massa _or to _Lucca_?


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## friedrichstrasse

narkelion said:


> Probably in the nort Tunnel is more used.


I live in Lombardy, and for me "traforo" is a long tunnel by an Alpine pass (Gottardo, Frejus, Monte Bianco, and so on).


----------



## narkelion

friedrichstrasse said:


> I live in Lombardy, and for me "traforo" is a long tunnel by an Alpine pass (Gottardo, Frejus, Monte Bianco, and so on).


For me "traforo" is just a tunnel/galleria with something special: maybe going under a special mountain, or maybe being very long (like Gran Sasso, Frejus, Monte Bianco).

For example, I would not consider the Variante di Valico as a Traforo.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> The word "highway" is almost exclusively translated into "snelweg" (motorway) for Dutch subtitles


Same here, always. Last time they talked about a 2-lane winding mountainous highway and called it an "avtocesta". icard:


----------



## Suburbanist

The idea that comes quickly on my mind is:

traforo = a tunnel linking two "unconnected" sides of a big mountain range

galleria (auto)stradale = a bore on the ground that is a "shortcut" in relate to other possibilities like driving on the surface or taking a small land detour


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> Motorway is British English I think.


And Irish.


----------



## Coccodrillo

friedrichstrasse said:


> Don't you refer to San Gottardo or San Bernardino as "traforo"? I do


Usually I use "tunnel" (even more than "galleria").

(usually together with coda, Stau, Iniziativa delle Alpi or Alpen-Initiative)


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Many translations for subtitles for television series are movies are also lacking in terms of road-related things. The word "highway" is almost exclusively translated into "snelweg" (motorway) for Dutch subtitles





Verso said:


> Same here, always. Last time they talked about a 2-lane winding mountainous highway and called it an "avtocesta". icard:


That's not common on German TV. A "highway" is always a "highway". But I can remember that in old TV series/movies it was sometimes called "Autobahn" (in the 1970th?) :nuts:.


----------



## Road_UK

I don't like the German dubbing anyway. For one thing can you write off half of the Hollywood actors talents, and half of the movie gets lost.


----------



## narkelion

Well, speaking of road names...

To italians: how do you translate in english Superstrada? Freeway?

I lived for 6 months in Australia: there the freeway is our Autostrada (with a couple of lanes more :lol::lol and the highway is any road in which you can reach 100 km/h. Even something that we call "Strada Statale".


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## italystf

narkelion said:


> Well, speaking of road names...
> 
> To italians: how do you translate in english Superstrada? Freeway?
> 
> I lived for 6 months in Australia: there the freeway is our Autostrada (with a couple of lanes more :lol::lol and the highway is any road in which you can reach 100 km/h. Even something that we call "Strada Statale".


I would translate superstrada with expressway. Freeway is just the AmE for motorway.


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## ElviS77

italystf said:


> I would translate superstrada with expressway. Freeway is just the AmE for motorway.


I agree with the first, "expressway" is an acceptable translation. "Freeway" does indeed mean motorway, but it's not used all over the US all the time. Even "highway" (doh!) is used in certain places, and the Canadians I spoke with only used "highway"...

Language is never easy.


----------



## Road_UK

I don't agree. Expressway is more a term used for fast track roads in urban areas. In Britain we'd simply go for dual carriageway.


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## narkelion

So Expressway can be referred to Tangenziale or Circonvallazione, then. 

And any two-lane (plus emergency lane) road is just called "dual carriageway"?

Like this one: http://goo.gl/maps/OR4kB

For our road code, that road is called "Strada Statale". But is known as "Superstrada", which is not a legal name. It's real term is "Strada extraurbana principale". Speed limit is 110 km/h.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Dual carriageways are not necessarily grade-separated, while most Italian superstrade do have grade-separation throughout. I too think expressway is the best term for these roads. 

Freeway means the same as motorway but is generally not used in a European context. The term highway is far too generic, any autostrada, superstrada, strada statale or strada provinciale could be translated as a highway. If a mainland European talks about a highway, he/she usually means a motorway, unaware that the term is much broader than that.


----------



## narkelion

ChrisZwolle said:


> Dual carriageways are not necessarily grade-separated, while most Italian superstrade do have grade-separation throughout. I too think expressway is the best term for these roads.
> 
> Freeway means the same as motorway but is generally not used in a European context. The term highway is far too generic, any autostrada, superstrada, strada statale or strada provinciale could be translated as a highway. If a mainland European talks about a highway, he/she usually means a motorway, unaware that the term is much broader than that.


Thanks! kay:


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> I don't agree. Expressway is more a term used for fast track roads in urban areas. In Britain we'd simply go for dual carriageway.


It's not the same thing. An expressway must be completely grade-separated while a dual carrageway can be any divided road even if it has roundabouts, traffic lights, private driveways and pedestrian crossings. Expressway doesn't refer only to urban roads.

For example this is an expressway.
This isn't, but however it's a dual carriageway.


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## Road_UK

I guess I'm getting my English lessons. A dual carriageway in Britain is ALWAYS grade separated. 2x2 only divided by a white line does not fall under the definition of a dual carriageway. At places it's interrupted by roundabouts, but then so are plenty of motorways in Britain and the Netherlands.


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## ChrisZwolle

Ireland has a nice name for dual carriageways that have full access control (thus no roundabouts or traffic lights): High-quality dual carriageway (HQDC).


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## friedrichstrasse

:nuts:


----------



## x-type

But there is one more issue: superstrada is not necessarily a dual carriageway :nuts:


----------



## Road_UK

Britain does have its shares of expressways, although not many. A fine example is the A38(M) Aston Expressway in northern Birmingham. It runs from the M6 at Spaghetti Junction towards the city centre. Even though it has motorway status, it is not grade separated. It goes for a few miles, and then turns into a Queensway, an urban Expressway right through the city centre of Birmingham, going through tunnels.


----------



## ElviS77

Road_UK said:


> I guess I'm getting my English lessons. A dual carriageway in Britain is ALWAYS grade separated. 2x2 only divided by a white line does not fall under the definition of a dual carriageway. At places it's interrupted by roundabouts, but then so are plenty of motorways in Britain and the Netherlands.


There are several dual carriageways (with physically separated carriageways) with at-grade intersections, though. Wouldn't you refer to those as "dual carriageways"?


----------



## Road_UK

ElviS77 said:


> There are several dual carriageways (with physically separated carriageways) with at-grade intersections, though. Wouldn't you refer to those as "dual carriageways"?


Yes I would. In fact they are.


----------



## ElviS77

Road_UK said:


> Yes I would. In fact they are.


We agree, then 

Defining concepts like "motorway", "freeway", "expressway", "highway" etc in a way that satisfies both native speakers and gives non-natives a common ground for discussion, isn't particularly easy. Different nations - even within Europe - sign these things differently, and definitions may differ. Italian "Superstrada" covers, the way I understand it, both divided and undivided roads, just like German "Kraftfahrstrasse" - or Norwegian "motortrafikkvei". In the UK, there is no such road category, as far as I know.


----------



## Road_UK

No not really. There are motorways, dual carriageways, expressways or Queensways and anything else are A or B roads.

Edit: country lanes. Wow!


----------



## g.spinoza

ElviS77 said:


> Italian "Superstrada" covers, the way I understand it, both divided and undivided roads,


Not really. Superstrada is a divided road which is not a motorway. Undivided road, although seldom referred to as "superstrada", are more commonly called "strada a scorrimento veloce".

Bear in mind that "superstrada" is not an official term, so its meaning may vary according to who's using it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> Bear in mind that "superstrada" is not an official term, so its meaning may vary according to who's using it.


The term "_Gelbe Autobahn_" is also not an official one. The official term is an "_Autobahnähnliche Straße_" (motorway-like road). Although this term is generally not applied for two-lane roads in Germany. The term _autoweg_ in Dutch is an official status, but is used for both 2-lane roads and 4-lane divided roads. 

The meaning of the blue car sign varies by country. In most cases these are used for 4-lane expressways only, but in other countries, such as the Netherlands, Switzerland and Germany, it is used for two-lane roads as well, which may or may not have grade-separated interchanges. 

This makes the term expressway somewhat vague, because its construction form varies by country and also within countries. A 4-lane divided and controlled-access highway that does not have motorway status is generally understood to be an expressway. Google Maps gives them the same colors as a full motorway.


----------



## brick84

*Autoroute A8/ Autostrada A10 Genova-Ventimiglia
*





















by  Raymond on Flickr


----------



## Road_UK

In the Netherlands the blue car sign has the official name of "autoweg". In Austria and Germany a "bundestrasse" could mean anything, but they are always B-roads.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> An expressway must be completely grade-separated


Are you sure? :troll: In the United States, an _expressway_ is defined by the federal government’s Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices as a divided highway with partial control of access. But yes, in Europe we have our own definition of the word _expressway_ (I guess that's in the Globish language).


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Google Maps gives them the same colors as a full motorway.


Google maps is a mess in this sense, at least in Italy. Full motorways like A21 racc are rendered as expressways, and expressways like SS76 around Fabriano like normal roads. I wouldn't rely on Gmaps for a classification.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

True, it used to be much better. Google Maps is destroying itself by poor quality control.


----------



## Suburbanist

_Circonvallazione_ = ring road. 
_Raccordo_ = spur
_Tangenziale_ = connector or bypass (depending on context)

The technical name for divided controlled-access highways that are not _autostrade_ is _strada extraurbana principale_. For 1+1 undivided controlled-access highways, the name is _strada extraurbana secondaria_.

The problem is that the blue highway symbol refers to _strada extraurbana principale_, whereas the blue car symbol only indicates that it is a road reserved for motor vehicles.


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> Circonvallazione = ring road.
> Raccordo = spur
> Tangenziale = connector or bypass (depending on context)


Tangenziale not ringroad or orbital?


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Tangenziale not ringroad or orbital?


Tangenziale is not necessarily a ring road: as its name may suggest, it's a road which is tangent to the city ring.


----------



## Verso

Suburbanist said:


> _Tangenziale_ = connector or bypass (depending on context)


Connector? Isn't that _raccordo_?


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Connector? Isn't that _raccordo_?


Mostly, yes. But terminology may vary. GRA is a ringroad but it is commonly known as Raccordo, because part of it was originally built to connect A1 and A2.


----------



## narkelion

Road_UK said:


> Tangenziale not ringroad or orbital?


As Spinoza says, Tangenziale means only that goes tangent to the city. In Milan there are 3 tangenziali, but they are not orbital (unless you drive on all of them, but you have to pass 3 junctions).

In Rome there are 2 ring roads: GRA (Grande Raccordo Anulare is the name that has been made up from the surname of its creator, Engineer Gra, in facts it is not properly a Raccordo) which is a normal motorway (130 km/h, 3 lanes + emergency, completely grade-separated, green sings) and Tangenziale EST, deeper inside the city, but it is not completely grade-separated, limit is 40/50/70 km/h (depends on where you are) and the signs are white. It is almost completely round, but it is called Tangenziale.

Actually, tangenziale, raccordo, superstrada... all this terms are not legally recognized: so everyone uses as he prefers... 

There is also another one... "Bretella".:lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

Take a look at Lecce: the ring road there is formed by two tangenziali and one 'variante'


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> There is also another one... "Bretella".:lol:


Bretella in english means suspender(s)... in the field of motorways it is mostly associated with A1 section Fiano Romano-San Cesareo, inaugurated in 1988 to connect directly A1 and (then) A2 without entering GRA.


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> I always thought that Google Maps shows (at least in Europe) tolled grade separated roads with one or two thick dark orange lines (depending of the number of carriageways), untolled ones with light orange (beside the mistakes like the SS76).


I didn't think of that. I guess you're right.


----------



## g.spinoza

Some mixed news:

- *A35 "Brebemi"* will open in its entirety in May 2014, but some parts will be opened at the end of 2013 (Castrezzato-Fara Olivana);
- Preliminary project for the extension of *Autostrada A26/A4* eastwards has been approved by "Conferenza dei servizi", which is made up of involved municipalities and provinces, and also ministries and utilities boards. Next step is VIA, "Environmental Impact Assessment". This stretch is going to be part of the planned Broni (A21)-Pavia-Mortara motorway, ultimately linking Broni and Ivrea.
- *SS38* stretch Fuentes-Cosio in Valtellina (province Sondrio) is going to be opened at the end of July. This 9-km section is going to be a superstrada.
- *A3 reconstruction*: macrolot 3 section 3 of this autostrada will open next 22 July. This 11-km stretch, from Campotenese to Morano Calabro, is going to open 1.5 years ahead of schedule. Construction company "Tecnis" has been praised for its quick and accurate job, and also for reporting some mafia infiltrations (although on another project, SS106 enlargment also in Calabria).

EDIT:

- on the other hand, VIA rejected the project for *Autostrada Cispadana*, stating that there are lots of integrations to do on the basis of last year's earthquakes in the area.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

g.spinoza said:


> Not any more, since 2011. Now it is solely known as autostrada Ct-Sr.


 why didn't use A18? are they crazy?:nuts:


----------



## g.spinoza

Autobahn-mann said:


> why didn't use A18? are they crazy?:nuts:


I guess ANAS, who manages A Ct-Sr, wants to distinguish itself from Consorzio Autostrade Siciliane who mananges A18. Consorzio Autostrade Siciliane (CAS) has been center of numerous trials for its misconduct.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I hate the Peschiera del Garda junction on the A4:
> https://www.google.it/maps?ll=45.43...=HdgMu2dvOs_QDRKfOqW3vw&cbp=12,33.98,,0,-0.18
> 
> This double curve, blind because of the overpass, calls for accidents. This problem is worsened by the fact that this junction is very busy: it is used by everyone coming from Milan and going towards Brennerpass and A22, using SS 450 and saving a lot of km and toll, avoiding going to Verona.
> 
> SS 450, in my opinion is one of the worst bottlenecks in this area (probably second only to Gardesana occidentale between Salò and Gargnano in summer months). I hope it will be converted to autostrada one day, linking A4 and A22 directly.


They AutoBS-PD motorway's society says that will be construicted a new exit a Castelnuovo del Garda, to link directing to SS450...
I didn't rememeber where I've read this, maybe in a depliant of society and newspaper, but was in infrastructure list (how to do) of Veneto Region...
here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_A4_(Italy)#Junctions
I didn't know why this is wrote only in english wikipedia...
maybe I will post other information..
but I didn't know when this will be really realised


----------



## Autobahn-mann

g.spinoza said:


> I guess ANAS, who manages A Ct-Sr, wants to distinguish itself from Consorzio Autostrade Siciliane who mananges A18. Consorzio Autostrade Siciliane (CAS) has been center of numerous trials for its misconduct.


 I've understand but, I this is the "rule", the ID-number will be the same also if the society will be more than one...
Italian stuff...hno:


----------



## g.spinoza

Autobahn-mann said:


> They AutoBS-PD motorway's society says that will be construicted a new exit a Castelnuovo del Garda, to link directing to SS450...
> I didn't rememeber where I've read this, maybe in a depliant of society and newspaper, but was in infrastructure list (how to do) of Veneto Region...
> here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_A4_(Italy)#Junctions
> I didn't know why this is wrote only in english wikipedia...
> maybe I will post other information..
> but I didn't know when this will be really realised


Exit Castelnuovo was scrapped in 2010... mayors and local authorities want it back, but it's not sure it's going to happen.


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> An additional note about the T-roads: Mont Blanc and Fréjus tunnels were for a long time unconnected from the Italian motorway network, that's why the weren't numbered as part of A5 and A32, but as separate motorways called T1 and T4.


Technically, A5 is still not connected to the tunnel. The last 2 curves in Courmayeur were supposed to be made into 2x2 horshoe-shaped tunnel+tall viaduct with larger radii, but that has been abandoned (it would cost € 370 million and they ruled that out until some elusive uncertain date when/if they decide to build a 2nd bore on the tunnel).


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I think it's not worth it. Last 2 curves of that road are practically deserted and serve their purpose more than well.


----------



## Suburbanist

I think it would make sense to build a last curved tunnel+viaduct if and when a second Monte Bianco bore is put into service (else it would become an obvious and dangerous bottleneck). Until then, it makes not much difference, though I've been stuck behind a very slow moving truck once at speeds on the 20 km/h range


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ It's 1.5 km... I don't think it's so serious...


----------



## Road_UK

Neither do I. It used to be a lot worse when you still had to go through Courmayeur, and on the French side it's still a lot worse.


----------



## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ It's 1.5 km... I don't think it's so serious...


Actually is less than that, it's only 750 m... the other half of the road is 2+1 (2 lanes upwards, 1 lane downwards).

https://www.google.it/maps?saddr=E2...FSghuwIdG0BqAA&t=h&mra=mift&mrsp=1&sz=18&z=18


----------



## Suburbanist

A5 is a quite interesting route. When driving on direction Aosta, you can hear all the trucks using their retard-brakes and what else.

A32 has better views and less tunnels. Its completion is also much more recent. However, it bothers me they use a plaza toll system there.


----------



## friedrichstrasse

Autobahn-mann said:


> I've understand but, I this is the "rule", the ID-number will be the same also if the society will be more than one...
> Italian stuff...hno:


Yes, the numer system seem to be made by crazy people... :nuts:


----------



## g.spinoza

Autobahn-mann said:


> I've understand but, I this is the "rule", the ID-number will be the same also if the society will be more than one...
> Italian stuff...hno:


It usually is: A4, A3, A12, each is managed by different companies. Sometimes it's not, though. Look at the disaster between Ivrea and Stroppiana, basically a single motorway managed by two companies, and each branch bears an absurd name: one is A26/A4, the other is A4/A5 uke:


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Technically, A5 is still not connected to the tunnel.


The A5 does not end where the *Mont Blanc Tunnel* begins, but where the *T1 "motorway"* begins.

The best example showing that the T does not identify a tunnel, but a road, is the T2: https://maps.google.ch/maps?saddr=S...;FajXuwIdgXNtAA&mra=dme&mrsp=0&sz=16&t=m&z=13 (two thirds of the Gran San Bernardo tunnel are part of the Swiss H21, not of the Italian T2)


----------



## Alqaszar

So "T2"-nomenclatura is superfluous, since the SS 26 simply goes into the tunnel.

Yes, Italy really needs a a revamping of the road numbering system.


----------



## keber

Suburbanist said:


> I think it would make sense to build a last curved tunnel+viaduct if and when a second Monte Bianco bore is put into service (else it would become an obvious and dangerous bottleneck).


With current toll pricing policy I believe there is no danger of "bottlenecking" Monte Bianco/Mont Blanc tunnel - and Frejus too.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

Suburbanist said:


> A32 has better views and less tunnels. Its completion is also much more recent. However, it bothers me they use a plaza toll system there.


 I've used for 2 times the A32 motorway, is very nice, but... Yes, the "open" toll system is very annoying / irritant...
sorry for my bad english


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ mythical third line? Next millennium? That's why one should never read wikipedia...

EDIT: I removed those stupid sections


----------



## narkelion

keber said:


> Small offtopic:
> _The line is currently under construction. Its opening has been delayed until sometime *in the next millenium*, at the earliest._
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_C_(Rome_Metro)
> 
> It appears that Rome is really an eternal city, where big constructions take millennia to complete:lol:


Well... yes. :lol::lol::lol:

It should open in branches, first of which in June 2014.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ According to Google maps, Raccordo Autostradale Ospitaletto-Montichiari, aka Corda Molle, aka A21 racc, is called "Rec Rope Springs" (??!??!??)
> 
> https://maps.google.it/?ll=45.472892,10.210075&spn=0.08306,0.162392&t=m&z=12
> 
> What do they smoke over there?
> 
> EDIT: Now I understand! "Corda molle", literally means "slack rope", but "molle" also means springs, like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They just literally translated - wrongly - the road's nickname... OMFG...


LOL

Anyway I don't see anything wrong if GOOGLE maps use GOOGLE translator


----------



## italystf

:lol: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Line_C_(Rome_Metro)&diff=564356191&oldid=564099044


----------



## italystf

Someone else notice the Google translation
https://plus.google.com/111635253119682622873/posts/PobHEbo4KHB
"I didn't know in Flero we had a piece of America... Rec Rope Spring... it sounds like something of GTA... or El Paso, Texas."


----------



## g.spinoza

Works for the dynamic fourth lane on A4, between Sesto San Giovanni and Milano Certosa are ongoing. This 10-km stretch bears 180 thousand vehicles per day, with peaks of 6000 vehicles per hour in each direction. Works should be completed by 2016.

http://www.regione.lombardia.it/cs/.../Detail&cid=1213613769892&pagename=RGNWrapper


----------



## g.spinoza

Drove today on A14. They opened third lane on southbound carriageway around Rimini nord. Now you can drive continuously with three lanes to Pesaro.


----------



## Suburbanist

*Three nice road videos*

Some neat time-lapse road videos

A10 Imperia-Ventimiglia





.
A14 Forli-Imola





.
A14 Bologna (ring road)


----------



## brick84

Today the Infrastructure and trasports Minister inaugurated *17 new km of Salerno-Reggio Calabria* (between Campotenese and Morano Calabro-Castrovillari)


----------



## keber

Both halves of the motorway were opened? That would be very fast, on Google maps aerial view from last year it looks that one half haven't even start a construction.


----------



## brick84

brick84 said:


> Today the Infrastructure and trasports Minister inaugurated *17 new km of Salerno-Reggio Calabria* (between Campotenese and Morano Calabro-Castrovillari)


here's the video --> http://www.stradeanas.tv/magazine/142


----------



## keber

At 3:14 it looks strange, as there would be only one carriageway modernized.

Otherwise it is amazing how large number of politicians and other "important" persons came to the opening.


----------



## brick84

*The the bypass graft of 'Tangenziale di Catania' and highway Catania-Siracusa
*


----------



## Galro

^^ The poor building in the middle there; Was it part of the project?


----------



## MattiG

*Service Area at A1 x A24*

There seems to be a service area inside the junction of A1 and A24:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=room...35.263672&hnear=Rooma,+Lazio,+Italia&t=h&z=17

I wonder why this area is located inside the junction accessible to those traveling on A24 only. If it were placed a few kilometers east or west, it would serve those travellers moving from A1 to A24, too. Some sort of a licensing issue?


----------



## italystf

MattiG said:


> There seems to be a service area inside the junction of A1 and A24:
> 
> https://maps.google.com/maps?q=room...35.263672&hnear=Rooma,+Lazio,+Italia&t=h&z=17
> 
> I wonder why this area is located inside the junction accessible to those traveling on A24 only. If it were placed a few kilometers east or west, it would serve those travellers moving from A1 to A24, too. Some sort of a licensing issue?


That part of A24 was opened in 1969 while the A1 between Fiano Romano and San Cesareo only in 1988. When the rest area was built on the A24 this interchange wasn't planned.

Similar situation: the "Bazzera" rest area on the A57 near Venice. When it was built (1970 circa) it was part of the main motorway A4 Torino - Trieste. Since the opening of the Passante di Mestre in 2009 (Dolo - Quarto d'Altino), the rest area is now accessible only from the A57 (Mestre bypass, formerly part of the A4) and not from the A4 itself.


----------



## italystf

Another Google Maps blooper:
Largo della Barriera Vecchia (a square in Trieste) signed 150km north near Tarvisio.
https://maps.google.it/maps?q=largo...Predil,+Udine,+Friuli-Venezia+Giulia&t=m&z=14


----------



## Verso

According to Google the highest point of the Slovenian road network lies in Italy (apparently because the place is shown twice in the satellite view).


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> According to Google the highest point of the Slovenian road network lies in Italy (apparently because the place is shown twice in the satellite view).


Borders accuracy are one of the weakest aspects of Google Maps.


----------



## brick84

Galro said:


> ^^ The poor building in the middle there; Was it part of the project?


It's the ANAS control center.


----------



## intersezioni

Work has begun on the new toll of Ventimiglia on the A 10 Genoa-Ventimiglia (border with France) in Italy.
24-lane, 155-meter-long, cost € 30 million
New parking for trucks, new toll for Ventimiglia, new service center and shelter vehicles. End of construction 2015.


----------



## cougar1989

I will show you some pictures from my Roadtrip trough the EU+EFTA from 15/07/13 until 19/07/13.
A32 - A4 - A4/26 - A26 - A4 - RA13 - SS15


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria, Anas opens another 18 km*
26/07/2013

_*Complete the viaduct "Favazzina", in Bagnara. Pietro Ciucci: V macrolotto V also completed the new highway*_

Anas opened to traffic today another 18 km of new motorway Salerno-Reggio Calabria, of which about 10 km completion of 'V Macrolotto', about 5 km in the 'VI Macrolotto', in the province of Reggio Calabria, and 3 km in the lot between Lamezia Terme and the stream Randace, in the province of Catanzaro.

http://www.stradeanas.it/index.php?/news/dettaglio/id/3732


----------



## Road_UK

At least 37 people have been killed in southern
Italy when a coach plunged 30m (98ft) down a
steep slope, rescue services have said.
The coach hit several vehicles before coming off
a flyover near the town of Avellino, in the
Campania region.
At least 11 people have been injured, some of
them seriously, the Italian news agency Ansa
reported.
The coach was taking about 50 people, including
children, back to Naples following a pilgrimage,
reports say.
The cause of the accident is not clear.
TV footage showed smashed vehicles on the
flyover and shrouded bodies lined up by the side
of a road.
The driver of the coach is said to be among the
dead.
"The situation is critical," leading fireman
Pellegrino Iandolo told Italian television.
"Our men are working to save as many lives as
possible."
A police spokesman told the French news agency
AFP that the number of victims could not yet be
confirmed.
"We are still pulling people from the vehicle," he
said.
He added that the Naples-Bari motorway had
been closed to traffic because of the accident.
Reports say the bus smashed through a guardrail
on the flyover. It came to rest in heavy
undergrowth, which is hampering the rescue
operation.
The injured have been taken to hospitals in
Avellino, Salerno and Nola, Ansa said.

BBC


----------



## keber

According to news reports that should happen somewhere here:
https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.9108...6GKQXB1rRziY8C9x99wwuQ&cbp=12,223.45,,0,11.81


----------



## tool2106

This is where it happened:

https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Viadotto+Acqualonga,+Monteforte+Irpino,+Avellino,+Campania&hl=it&ll=40.909517,14.670863&spn=0.007014,0.016512&sll=41.908557,12.535998&sspn=0.442022,1.056747&oq=viadotto+acqualonga&t=h&geocode=Fag7cAIdld_fAA&hnear=Viadotto+Acqualonga,+Monteforte+Irpino,+Avellino,+Campania&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.909517,14.670863&panoid=Ofnn4QwnRO8ITeXVzPT1XA&cbp=12,246.96,,0,0"]https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Viadotto+Acqualonga,+Monteforte+Irpino,+Avellino,+Campania&hl=it&ll=40.909517,14.670863&spn=0.007014,0.016512&sll=41.908557,12.535998&sspn=0.442022,1.056747&oq=viadotto+acqualonga&t=h&geocode=Fag7cAIdld_fAA&hnear=Viadotto+Acqualonga,+Monteforte+Irpino,+Avellino,+Campania&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.909517,14.670863&panoid=Ofnn4QwnRO8ITeXVzPT1XA&cbp=12,246.96,,0,0[/URL]


----------



## tool2106

Here are some pics of this tragedy:

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2013/07/28/foto/irpinia_pullman_di_pellegrini_precita_dal_viadotto_almeno_2_morti-63894409/1/?ref=HREA-1#1


----------



## keber

This should not happen - those barriers must hold easily any normal road vehicle from breaking through.


----------



## tool2106

Well, you know, it was a 20 tons heavy bus travelling at around 90 km/h and hitting the jersey barrier with a quite tight corner.

Maybe those barriers were not exactly the most suiting type for a flyover. In most of Italian highways have been installed double-rails guard rails. Mainly for preventing motorbikes riders and ejected drivers from being beheaded.


----------



## italystf

What a tragedy hno:

I though that concrete crashbarriers ("New Jersey barriers") were safer than steel guard rail in case of high-speed collisions with heavy vehicles.

This is what happened 5 years ago on the A4 near Cessalto with double steel guard rails.








I cannot forget it, if I only think that I passed there just 3 hours before...hno:


----------



## hofburg

hno: but the bus didnt hit barrier at 90kmh, did it? As I read it touched the cars in front first.


----------



## keber

tool2106 said:


> Well, you know, it was a 20 tons heavy bus travelling at around 90 km/h and hitting the jersey barrier with a quite tight corner.


Those jersey barriers must be designed to hold such vehicle with ease, even a 40 ton truck at full speed. It also appears that crash happened in the right corner on the right side.
As I see on the picture, barrier itself did not break but latches that fix barrier into position did.


----------



## zerro

italystf said:


> What a tragedy hno:
> 
> I though that concrete crashbarriers ("New Jersey barriers") were safer than steel guard rail in case of high-speed collisions with heavy vehicles.
> 
> This is what happened 5 years ago on the A4 near Cessalto with double steel guard rails.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot forget it, if I only think that I passed there just 3 hours before...hno:


Thats not true. When this crash happened, there was only normal steel gurad rail, nothing special. You can see this even on street view.
https://maps.google.com/?ll=45.7060...gtr2l_WCG2_a_VbvQRU8Ww&cbp=12,230.84,,0,10.48

And than after this crash, Autovie Venete have instaled "new jersey" barriers from Portogruaro to Cesalto. 
https://maps.google.com/?ll=45.7185...=DRRzss371xa81ep137gx_Q&cbp=12,263.61,,0,6.64

The rest of A4 trieste-venezia have massive double guard rail.


----------



## italystf

zerro said:


> Thats not true. When this crash happened, there was only normal steel gurad rail, nothing special. You can see this even on street view.
> https://maps.google.com/?ll=45.7060...gtr2l_WCG2_a_VbvQRU8Ww&cbp=12,230.84,,0,10.48


Right, there was a single guard rail, that is very dangerous.
On Street View pics, taken 2 months later, you can still clearily see the remanis of the accident (reconstructed asphalt and guard rails).


----------



## javimix19

- What it is the medium day intensity in the A-1?

- I have another question: Is the SS309- E-55 an expressway or it is a normal road? I ask this because it is the shortest way between Venezia and Ravenna


----------



## Suburbanist

javimix19 said:


> - I have another question: Is the SS309- E-55 an expressway or it is a normal road? I ask this because it is the shortest way between Venezia and Ravenna


Normal annoying road, with many dangerous roadside access, on which they build a couple overpasses over certain crossing with other roads.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> Normal annoying road, with many dangerous roadside access, on which they build a couple overpasses over certain crossing with other roads.


And one of the worst roads in Italy for accident rate.


----------



## Suburbanist

*A3 Scilla - Gioia Tauro*

A video of the modernized/new A3 between SCilla and Gioia Tauro






.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

Suburbanist said:


> A video of the modernized/new A3 between SCilla and Gioia Tauro


 speed bumps on acceleations lane??? :uh:


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
Mine is just a hypothesis. 
Because of the works in progress on the carriageway which provisionally keep the two lanes one per direction, maybe they tought it would have been safer to force cars to slow down by a bumper. The design of the accelleration lane allows to enter the highway at relatively high speed, but the traffic in the carriegeway is slower and with just one lane which avoid to go left to avoid a crash in case a crazy driver enters the motorway too fast
Maybe they thought signage wasn't enough and decided to add a bump


----------



## italystf

Sunfuns said:


> What are the red, green and white dots? Are those lot boundaries or maybe exits? If so why are some red, some white and some red on already completed sections?


White: open exit
Red: planned exit
Light green: U/C exit


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not to mention many lodging can only be booked from Saturday to Saturday in July and August.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Not to mention many lodging can only be booked from Saturday to Saturday in July and August.


Maybe this is more a thing of the past, I never had difficulties booking differently in August. For instance, I booked a hotel in Val di Fassa from Thursday 15 to Sunday 18 August.


----------



## g.spinoza

Yesterday, driving from Montichiari to Brescia, I stumbled upon one of the most confusing signs I ever saw:









https://www.google.it/maps?ll=45.45...=53nY_Rojg-XSpsuEdGjolg&cbp=12,330.35,,0,3.39

Obviously I took the wrong exit...


----------



## Autobahn-mann

It's very strange... What is "Fascia d'oro"?
When I look at the link on google maps I've seen that there open the sxit of Brescia sud on A21...


----------



## g.spinoza

Autobahn-mann said:


> It's very strange... What is "Fascia d'oro"?


It's an industrial/commercial zone within the territory of Montichiari.



> When I look at the link on google maps I've seen that there open the sxit of Brescia sud on A21...


Not really. It's A21 racc that ends there, not A21.

However, studying the road I undestood that:
- going on the first lane you end up in a roundabout were you can go in several direction (A21 racc, local road to Castenedolo, or to Brescia);
- going on the second or third lane is the same: they merge few meters beyond and go towards Brescia
- going on the fourth lane you go to Fascia d'Oro.

So basically, first, second or third lane, you can still go to Brescia :nuts:


----------



## Autobahn-mann

g.spinoza said:


> Not really. It's A21 racc that ends there, not A21.


 But I say A21 because I've seen the new exit of Brascia Sud on A21
this https://maps.google.it/maps?q=45.470334,10.220461&hl=it&num=1&t=m&z=15
that I didn't know that was opened


----------



## g.spinoza

It's open since September 2008.


----------



## g.spinoza

According to presidents of regions Marche and Umbria, works for the construction of second carriageway on the SS 76 in the framework of Project Quadrilatero, which stopped last 16th March due to financial difficulties of contractor Impresa SpA, are going to resume next October. The project itself is fully funded, so Impresa SpA is just going to receive funds in advance to resolve its internal problems.

SS 76 is a class B road (dual carriageway, 110 km/h) running from SS 16 in Falconara Marittima (10 km from Ancona) to the Umbrian border. It is divided into two stretches (Falconara - Serra San Quirico, built in the 70s) and Albacina-Cancelli di Fabriano (built in the 90s). Single carriageway stretches involved in the works are the 12-km Serra San Quirico - Albacina (through the narrow Della Rossa gorge, featuring a single tube 3+ km tunnel) and the 8.5-km Cancelli-Fossato di Vico (through the main Apennines chain, featuring a single tube 2+ km tunnel).


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> Tomorrow an 11-km-long stretch of superstrada SS 38 (Valtellina, province of Sondrio, Lombardy) is going to open. The stretch goes from the so-called "trivio Fuentes" (where current SS 38, SS 36 and SP 72 meet) to Cosio Valtellino.
> 
> http://www.lestradedellinformazione.it/site/home/primo-piano/articolo13155.html


----------



## g.spinoza

Seriously? Passing lane all the way?


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> Seriously? Passing lane all the way?


Can you put the original post back up? About "who shot these"... Got a little anekdote about that what happened to me on the A1 between Rome and Naples...


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Can you put the original post back up? About "who shot these"...


It was a little ruder than the current one, so I'd prefer not to.
But you can still tell us your story


----------



## Road_UK

Ok, well, I was on my way from England to Salerno and I decided to stay in a motel for the night - as you do in southern Italy instead of sleeping in a van. And I found one at the Autogrill services . Parked the van up and went inside and I got my room. Went back to the van to get my bag and laptop and this guy in a suit approached me. Showed me a Polizia Stradale badge, and said that an English reg van had been spotted on the motorway waving his gun around. Wasn't me of course, I only do that on Skyscrapercity. Then he asked me if I've got some counterfeit US dollars, and he wanted to check my wallet. First I asked him to see that badge again. He showed me, had a quick look in my wallet, shaked my hand and then buggered off. Later when eating at the restaurant I found I had 200 euros missing...


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Those people are really tricksters. A friend of my dad's, more than 20 years ago, was tricked in a similar way in a rest area. A foreigner, barely speaking Italian, approached asking to see some Italian lire because he thought he was given some fake ones as change and wanted to see the difference. Net result: some 200.000 lire (100 euro) missing from the wallet...


----------



## g.spinoza

In the framework of the enlargement of A4 between Quarto d'Altino and San Donà di Piave, east of Venice, yesterday the old bridge on river Piave has been demolished with 320 explosive charges.

Here's the photogallery of the event:
http://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/foto...nte-sul-piave-va-giu-in-sei-secondi-1.7542786

And here's a video:


----------



## bogdymol

^^ How is the traffic affected by this works? I'm asking this because I will drive there next week.

Also, are there any restrictions on Raccordo Villesse - Gorizia? I see on Google Maps traffic that it might be closed on a section.


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> ^^ How is the traffic affected by this works? I'm asking this because I will drive there next week.


It's not. The new bridge was opened between June and July, and all traffic goes there, still 2x2 for the time being but on a single carriageway. The second bridge still has to be built, starting next fall.



> Also, are there any restrictions on Raccordo Villesse - Gorizia? I see on Google Maps traffic that it might be closed on a section.


I think italystf knows better.


----------



## italystf

A34:
Open 1+1 in both directions all the way.
You cannot exit at Gradisca it you come from Gorizia.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Raccordo Villesse - Gorizia is A34? I tought it's RA17 or









And is it 1+1 the entire way? I'm asking because I see on Google Street View that it's also 2+2 on some sections.

I don't want to take any exit from it... just drive from Gorizia to the A4.


----------



## Suburbanist

I think they should have built an expressway through the city in the 1960s, when that would have been allowed, and then another causeway to the Lido.


----------



## Road_UK

Where? Through Venice???


----------



## bogdymol

Expressway over Venice channels?


----------



## Coccodrillo

A Dutch-style polder would have been better, IMHO.


----------



## italystf

Drying the Canal Grande? Please no...
They should rather dig subsea tunnels between Punta Sabbioni, Lido, Pellestrina and Chioggia.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Road_UK said:


> Where? Through Venice???





bogdymol said:


> Expressway over Venice channels?


Such idea would be so mad that Sub probably really likes it :nuts:


----------



## Road_UK

Perhaps he meant an express waterway...


----------



## italystf

It wouldn't have been allowed even in the 1960s. In those years the UNESCO saved Abu Simbel temples from Nasser's destructive plans.
Maybe it was possibile in Mussolini times but thanks God we didn't.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is no need for an expressway through Venezia. Population has dropped similar to American rust belt cities. Families don't want to live in a de-facto open air museum.


----------



## Road_UK

I'd love to live in Venice, and commute in my boat to my car... I generally love water. And even though we have plenty of lakes around here, I really miss my canals and lakes in Friesland...


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is no need for an expressway through Venezia. Population has dropped similar to American rust belt cities. Families don't want to live in a de-facto open air museum.


Yes, they were 200k 100 years ago and now 60k.I like Venice but I wouldn't live there, it's unpractical.


----------



## narkelion

^^^^ Quote that.

I live in Rome, and I know how difficult can be to live there. It's an awesome place to see and to visit, but I wouldn't live there.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> I think they should have built an expressway through the city in the 1960s, when that would have been allowed, and then another causeway to the Lido.


Yes, so fundamental having an expressway through a city without cars.


----------



## Sunfuns

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is no need for an expressway through Venezia. Population has dropped similar to American rust belt cities. Families don't want to live in a de-facto open air museum.


For very different reasons, though.


----------



## OulaL

When visiting Venice by car, it's anyway cheaper to park on the mainland and take a train.


----------



## narkelion

OulaL said:


> When visiting Venice by car, it's anyway cheaper to park on the mainland and take a train.


Just like any other really turistic city. It's always cheaper to park outside the town to enter it via public transport. 

I'd never park in the city center of Rome/Milan/Turin, for example.


----------



## OulaL

narkelion said:


> Just like any other really turistic city. It's always cheaper to park outside the town to enter it via public transport.
> 
> I'd never park in the city center of Rome/Milan/Turin, for example.


It also depends on where you are coming from and going to. If you are travelling through the city anyway, you may need to travel in "wrong direction" when either arriving or leaving, if you car is on the "wrong" side of the city. (Doing so might still save some money and even time, though.)

Of course this cannot be the case in Venice, since its centre is a dead end.


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> Yes, so fundamental having an expressway through a city without cars.


All Italian cities were "city without cars" until the turn of 20th century, when modernity arrived :cheers:

My idea wouldn't have been to build it through the build-up city, but instead as a network of causeways veering east on the end of the existing causeway and then swinging through the tip of Murano, the Arsenale (where some car facilities could be build like a mega garage), and then a sunk tunnel to the Lido (since there is a major shipping lane there). 

A secondary branch (causeway over water) would also link Murano to Burano. Between them, some land reclamation could occur, building an arch-shape polder for new construction there, something like Dubai (but easier, since the lagoon is much easier to deal with than the open waters from which Dubai reclaims land).


----------



## narkelion

From what I know, Venice lagoon is a really endagered environment.

Doing such a project may tear it down.


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> All Italian cities were "city without cars" until the turn of 20th century, when modernity arrived :cheers:
> 
> My idea wouldn't have been to build it through the build-up city, but instead as a network of causeways veering east on the end of the existing causeway and then swinging through the tip of Murano, the Arsenale (where some car facilities could be build like a mega garage), and then a sunk tunnel to the Lido (since there is a major shipping lane there).
> 
> A secondary branch (causeway over water) would also link Murano to Burano. Between them, some land reclamation could occur, building an arch-shape polder for new construction there, something like Dubai (but easier, since the lagoon is much easier to deal with than the open waters from which Dubai reclaims land).


Is it really necessary?


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I don't agree, wrong is wrong to me. This said, I'm not going to talk any more about it.


----------



## italystf

Sunfuns said:


> Some of it was wrong (for example Mussolini's "works" in Rome), but much of it was inevitable. We shouldn't forget that the primary task of the city is for living and doing business not just for tourists to admire how people lived in the past.


But, regardeless the regime who built it, the Via della Conciliazione is far more pleasant than the Tangenziale est di Roma, the Sopraelevata di Genova, the A56 in Naples and the SS202 in Trieste.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> https://maps.google.it/maps?q=corso...nni+Agnelli,+200,+10135+Torino,+Piemonte&z=15


This is FIAT Mirafiori factory

I think Maserati new factory is now in former Bertone's one (not far from Mirafiori, anyway)

https://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&ll=45.050415,7.593302&spn=0.004733,0.008256&t=h&z=18


----------



## g.spinoza

GENIUS LOCI said:


> This is FIAT Mirafiori factory
> 
> I think Maserati new factory is now in former Bertone's one (not far from Mirafiori, anyway)
> 
> https://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&ll=45.050415,7.593302&spn=0.004733,0.008256&t=h&z=18


Maserati Factory is at 200 corso Agnelli, and that's where Gmaps points :dunno:

EDIT: Mmm, I think you're right...


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

On january they opened a new factory in Grugliasco


----------



## g.spinoza

Some pictures about BreBeMi (A35) and TEEM works:

A35 toll barrier in Liscate:

















Teem overpass of Milan-Venice railway in Melzo:









Teem-A35 junction:









New Cassanese road in Melzo:









Teem-new Cassanese junction in Melzo:


----------



## g.spinoza

According to Guardia di Finanza (Italian law enforcement agency responsible for dealing with financial crime and smuggling), 1 gas pump out of 6 in Italy is tampered with. Starting from 1st August, 1216 pumps all over Italy have been checked and 174 were found irregular: gasoline or diesel diluted with water, altered nozzles, and so on.

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/13_...ce_40a7bbb2-03e9-11e3-b7de-a2b03b792de4.shtml


----------



## italystf

Stupid example of road downgrading: after the opening of the Lacotisce - Rabuiese expressway, a part of the SP14 along the unhabitated coast near Muggia (not to be confused with the SS14\SR14, that doesn't touch Muggia) was being downgraded to an one-way road, so drivers in the opposite direction have to take a crazy detour passing through a built-up area. :lol:
https://maps.google.it/maps?saddr=S...FdTWtwIdXpPSAA&t=h&mra=mift&mrsp=1&sz=16&z=15

As you can see, there is enought room for two standard-width lanes:
https://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&l...d=AW3HF0YwOuxRDgu5reVR_g&cbp=12,85.89,,0,6.85

Another part of the SP14 is two-ways but... one lane is marked in yellow for a while, it seems a PT-only lane or a roadworks area. However there are no prohibition signs and cars drive normally in both directions.
https://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&l...=VMeKeUry9MRJ1lJyZQlzCA&cbp=12,287.7,,0,16.63

Here, according to the signs you can go both straight or left but if you go straight you have to pass a solid white line and enter the yellow lane.
https://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&l...=hPo1gM_u-oWzPyfe7_64QQ&cbp=12,90.15,,0,12.88


----------



## italystf

Demolition of the old A4 bridge over the river Piave, last week:


alberto.pd said:


>





alberto.pd said:


>





alberto.pd said:


>





alberto.pd said:


>





alberto.pd said:


>


Yes, this event was quite spectacularized... :cheers:


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I already posted that some time ago:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=105953855&postcount=5676


----------



## italystf

^^ Just wathed the video. Imagine what scare if they didn't disrupt traffic in the nearby bridge.


----------



## hofburg

nice, I already drove on the new bridge.


----------



## vatse

*A32 from Circonvallazione di Oulx to Avigliana Est*


Picture 059 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 060 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 061 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 062 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 063 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 064 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 065 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 066 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 067 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 068 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

Picture 069 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 070 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 071 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 072 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 073 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 074 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 075 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 076 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 078 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 079 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

Picture 080 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 081 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 082 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 083 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 084 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 085 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 086 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 087 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 087a by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 087b by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

Picture 088 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 089 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 090 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 091 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 137 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 138 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 139 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 140 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 141 by vatse, on Flickr

Nice view to Sacra di San Michele

Picture 143 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

Picture 144 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 145 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 146 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 147 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 148 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 149 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 150 by vatse, on Flickr


Picture 151 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## x-type

nice 

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5505/9532808752_6164eaf380_o.jpg

this is one of the longest tunnels with double tube in Europe (it used to be in top10, i think that it isn't anymore due to Austrian doublings in last few years)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

By 2023 there will be 7 road tunnels with two tubes over 10 kilometers in length in Europe. There will even be a 2x3 lane tunnel with a length of 16.5 kilometers, almost the same as the Gotthard Tunnel.


----------



## x-type

yep, there are many plans for long tunnels. those 5-10 km long will become more or less normal thing


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> By 2023 there will be 7 road tunnels with two tubes over 10 kilometers in length in Europe. There will even be a 2x3 lane tunnel with a length of 16.5 kilometers, almost the same as the Gotthard Tunnel.


What are these?


----------



## narkelion

I only know 2:

Gran Sasso and the future Brenner tunnel.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> What are these?


Most of them are in northern Europe. The 16.500 meter 2x3 tunnel is part of the Stockholm bypass, where construction will begin later this year. (the bypass is 21 km long, of which 18 km underground and 16.5 km forms the southern tunnel with an underground interchange).

Then there is the Femern Belt Tunnel between Denmark and Germany, a twin-tube 2x2 tunnel with shoulders which is 18.2 kilometers long. There is also the 14.3 km Ryfylke Tunnel in Norway, a twin-tube tunnel which is currently under construction (the first explosives were used just this week) and will open in 2018.

But the big bang is the Bokna Fjord Tunnel in Norway which will begin construction in 2015. It will be a twin-tube tunnel with an underground interchange that is a staggering 26.5 kilometers long. It is both the longest and deepest tunnel in the world.


----------



## Suburbanist

Meanwhile, Italy can't put its act together to build a mere 4km long suspension bridge


----------



## x-type

there is also some Turkish very long double tubed tunnel, i forgot the name, but i think they have recently began the construction.
however, i still think that at least half of those projects won't be realized in next 10 years. especially i doubt about D-DK tunnel.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

x-type said:


> there is also some Turkish very long double tubed tunnel, i forgot the name, but i think they have recently began the construction.
> however, i still think that at least half of those projects won't be realized in next 10 years. especially i doubt about D-DK tunnel.


I think you can be quite sure they will be constructed before 2023. All of these projects already have government approval. The Femern Belt Tunnel is going through the last stage of environmental approval and construction will begin in 2015. The Bokna Fjord Tunnel is also going through environmental approval and the Stockholm Bypass Tunnel will begin construction late 2013, both have completion dates of 2023.

The Turkish tunnel is the Mount Ovit Tunnel, which is 14.7 kilometers long and under construction since May 2012. But it is not in Europe.


----------



## Coccodrillo

narkelion said:


> I only know 2:
> 
> Gran Sasso and the future Brenner tunnel.


Although there is a 2x2 road tunnel at the summit of the Brenner Autobahn, the future Brenner base tunnel is for railway.


----------



## italystf

The A31 Vicenza - Trento will include a 15km twin-tubes tunnel but unfortunately it won't open before 2023.
A "service tube" of the Frejus tunnel is U/C and there are rumors that it can become a traffic tube in the future.
There was a project of a Transalpine motorway from Brescia to Kempten via Austria with serveral 20km+ tunnels but of course is pure science fiction.
They also planned a 15km E-W tunnel below Milan with 6 underground interchanges and a 9km tunnel below the A57 in Mestre.
I've also seen an old (1980s) plan of an underground 10km motorway below Trieste from Prosecco junction to the port with several underground junctions in the city (again, very science-fiction like).


----------



## narkelion

Coccodrillo said:


> Although there is a 2x2 road tunnel at the summit of the Brenner Autobahn, the future Brenner base tunnel is for railway.


Oh, you're right! Actually I thought that the Brenner basis tunnel was for road traffic, and Ghottard basis for railway. But in facts they are both for railway.:lol:


----------



## italystf

narkelion said:


> Oh, you're right! Actually I thought that the Brenner basis tunnel was for road traffic, and Ghottard basis for railway. But in facts they are both for railway.:lol:


You are probably mistaking with the Variante di Valico Bologna - Florence that will include a 8km tunnel to cross the Appennins at roughly 400m instead of the 700m of the A1 today. Opening 2015.


----------



## narkelion

italystf said:


> You are probably mistaking with the Variante di Valico Bologna - Florence that will include a 8km tunnel to cross the Appennins at roughly 400m instead of the 700m of the A1 today. Opening 2015.


Actually, no. I was sure about brenner tunnel, but I don't know why.:lol:


----------



## Sunfuns

It's much easier to ventilate tunnels used only by electric railways. I wonder what is the practical limit for highway tunnels now. Won't be a problem any longer when/if we move to electric propulsion.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Laerdal and Rogfast tunnels are or will be around 25 km long, but with low traffic (around 2000 vehicles per day on the Laerdal tunnel), so ventilation is dimensioned to that traffic.

As far I know, the ventilation system of the Gotthard road tunnel was dimensioned for two lanes, but it is now said to be sufficient for two tubes and four lanes (with a few adaptations).

I think the limit of road tunnels' length is not technical, but economical (cost of ventilation system) and psychological (fear of staying underground for a lot of time).


----------



## italystf

Coccodrillo said:


> I think the limit of road tunnels' length is not technical, but economical (cost of ventilation system) and psychological (fear of staying underground for a lot of time).


This is probably why the Channel Tunnel and the Seikan Tunnel (both over 50km) are just railway tunnels with rail shuttles for cars.


----------



## Suburbanist

What make very long road tunnels particularly expensive are the fire prevention and mitigation measures. 

A railway carrying only passengers on electric trains has a limited potential for fire damage compared to thermo-activated trucks, tires, butter, fuel tanks etc.

I'm not totally sure, but I think there are restrictions about train hazmat and passenger trains travel at the same time on the Sempione and Frejus tunnels, aren't there?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Just two off topic precisions:

* the Seikan tunnel doesn't have car shuttles, and even if it had them, its loading gauge wouldn't allow high trucks to be transported

* as far I know there are no limitations on the Sempione-Simplon and Fréjus rail tunnels, however the first is a double tube tunnel, the second has a low passenger traffic volume (just 6 trains a day); there are no restrictions in the Gotthard rail tunnel but again the danger is limited as within 4 years most traffic will divert to the new and safer tunnel


----------



## g.spinoza

A video of Complanare di Senigallia, a new road opened in Senigallia beside the A14, built within the enlargement works of the autostrada. First half of the road opened last 22 June, second half is still in construction:


----------



## narkelion

Oh, so that's what that road was... I was travelling from S.Benedetto del Tronto to Ravenna some days ago, and I saw that road beside the highway...

Interesting!

I'm still waiting for the complanari on A24 from Togliatti to the toll in Roma Est, they should be ready for May 2014.


----------



## Nikolaj

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think you can be quite sure they will be constructed before 2023. All of these projects already have government approval. The Femern Belt Tunnel is going through the last stage of environmental approval and construction will begin in 2015. The Bokna Fjord Tunnel is also going through environmental approval and the Stockholm Bypass Tunnel will begin construction late 2013, both have completion dates of 2023.
> 
> The Turkish tunnel is the Mount Ovit Tunnel, which is 14.7 kilometers long and under construction since May 2012. But it is not in Europe.


Just adding to Chris' comments, the tendering process on the Femernbelt tunnel is well under way. The prequalification process has been completed, and 9 large contractor consortias have been selected to submit bids. Bids for the tunnel construction will be submitted early 2014 according to the plan.

http://www.femern.com/service-menu/...ern-as-prequalifies-international-contractors

Further to add all EIA documentation has been prepared, and on the Danish side the final public hearing is running from 28 June 2013 - 20 September 2013
http://vvmdocumentation.femern.com/


----------



## italystf

Western beginning of the future Pedemontana Veneta (tolled expressway, de facto motorway apart for the 110 speed limit hno: between Montecchio Maggiore and Conegliano connecting A4, A31, A27 and A28).








Opening planned for 2016 but it won't be useful for international traffic until they build the Pedemontana Friulana (A28 Cimpello - A23 Gemona), that it's still in planning stage.


----------



## bogdymol

Next pictures are from *A4 - A28 - A27 (Villesse - Belluno)*.









^^ _Tutor _system is watching us


----------



## Verso

hofburg said:


> I see they opened the section between the new toll station and interchange with A4 itself. The MILANO on the asphalt is new, I wonder if it will apear also on signs?


They have Milan here and we don't even have Venice anywhere. :lol:


----------



## bogdymol

The _autostrada_ is beautiful here:


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## bogdymol

Now pictures from *SS51 Belluno - Cortina d'Ampezzo.*










There are a lot of tunnels on this road:



















There was a nice-looking bridge I passed over, but I couldn't find a nice spot to stop and take better pictures of the bridge.










Look at this landscape :eek2:


----------



## bogdymol




----------



## keber

Interesting, gasoline is cheaper than in Germany.

And that "nice looking" bridge is sixth highest in Italy (with 184 meters)
http://www.highestbridges.com/wiki/index.php?title=Piave_River_Viaduct


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## Suburbanist

Dolomit are really beautiful. Have you driven west through the high mountain passes?


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## hofburg

very scenic, I must go there one day.


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## bogdymol

Suburbanist said:


> Dolomit are really beautiful. Have you driven west through the high mountain passes?


Unfortunately nu. I just had a quick walk through Cortina d'Ampezzo and after that I headed to Bologna.



hofburg said:


> very scenic, I must go there one day.


You should go there one day. It's not very far from your home.


----------



## Suburbanist

bogdymol said:


> Unfortunately nu. I just had a quick walk through Cortina d'Ampezzo and after that I headed to Bologna.


Oh, what a pity, you should have driven west and then taken the Brennero highway to Modena


----------



## Autobahn-mann

keber said:


> Interesting, gasoline is cheaper than in Germany.


 is a case, or the benevolence of the local operator
as in my little village (1,70 €/lit in a private operator), the next village (1 km: 1,797!!!)


----------



## cinxxx

@Suburbanist: What route do you exactly mean?
I am planning to visit Venice in the first week of October and have not decided what route to take there and back. But being that late in autumn, I'm not sure if passes are still open and if winter tires (maybe chains) are needed too.


----------



## Suburbanist

cinxxx said:


> @Suburbanist: What route do you exactly mean?
> I am planning to visit Venice in the first week of October and have not decided what route to take there and back. But being that late in autumn, I'm not sure if passes are still open and if winter tires (maybe chains) are needed too.


This one: http://goo.gl/maps/jFwWP

It is extremely unlikely for the road passes to be closed on the first week of October!


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Afaik, Sellaronda passes should be open year-round, as well as Karerpass/Costalunga.


----------



## cinxxx

Looks interesting, but also quite a lot to drive from Ingolstadt, and then to Venice . 
Are summer tires still ok? Because I'm not planning to put winter tires on before end of October.


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## bogdymol

^^ On the road signs I saw that from November 15 (or October 15?... I don't remember exactly), you have to have summer tyres OR chains.


----------



## Penn's Woods

How bad can the first week of October be? I love traveling at that time of year. (I've had glorious, summer-like weather in Montreal the last weekend in September.) Thinking of a Maine-and-Quebec run that week this year, actually.


----------



## cinxxx

I know I drove the Großglockner High Alpine Road in Austria last year in the second week of September. The weather was great, sunny and warm. But they announced on the radio that the following days the snow peak will sink from over 2000m to under 1400, so the same trip a week later was not possible anymore.

Anyway, I will have to see how I will plan the trip. It's already the 3rd time I plan a trip to Venice. First two times I had to cancel because of weather.


----------



## bogdymol

Now pictures from *Cortina d'Ampezzo - Bologna (SS51 - A27 - A4 - A13)*:

The view is spectacular:










A lot of bikers on this mountain road:



















A dam seen from the road:


----------



## bogdymol

Continuing to Venice...










Check out the fuel price hno:










Straight ahead is Venice, but we're going on Mestre bypass in the direction of Milano:










Venice bypass:




























The famous trees between Venice and Padova:


----------



## bogdymol

Exiting A4 near Padova to A13 to Bologna:



















Fuel prices along the motorway:



















Lots of destinations on this signs near Bologna:










Another nice looking bridge:










On tangenziale Bologna:










My hotel was on Via Stalingrado, so I took this exit:


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Nice pics 









I cringe with the naming of any public building or street with a Stalin reference though hno:

Even the Russians changed the name of the city but the Bologna municipality doesn't care to remove terrorists and foreign dictators from its street names  Dictators who took a chunk of Italian territory away like Tito (the Yugoslavian butcher/thug/psychopath, not the Roman emperor) are also honored with street names in Italy, something inconceivable in most countries.


----------



## hofburg

^that's nothing compared to Paris :nuts:



bogdymol said:


> Check out the fuel price hno:
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/w6h8dUC.jpg


on motorway rest areas the prices are usually higher.


----------



## Suburbanist

cinxxx said:


> I know I drove the Großglockner High Alpine Road in Austria last year in the second week of September. The weather was great, sunny and warm. But they announced on the radio that the following days the snow peak will sink from over 2000m to under 1400, so the same trip a week later was not possible anymore.
> 
> Anyway, I will have to see how I will plan the trip. It's already the 3rd time I plan a trip to Venice. First two times I had to cancel because of weather.


That is about Austria, but I think they just plow the Glossglockner route if it is not late into Fall...

Most Italian passes could be kept opened year-round (though not all), but the costs probably don't justify it now that there are tunnels and other routes to get around. Even the Passo Stelvio was once kept opened year-round. I think they had wooden sheds to prevent avalanche overflows in some places.


----------



## hofburg

Suburbanist said:


> Dictators who took a chunk of Italian territory away like Tito (the Yugoslavian butcher/thug/psychopath, not the Roman emperor) are also honored with street names in Italy, something inconceivable in most countries.


I don't see any reason whatsoever why there would be Tito streets in Italy or even Slovenia. However, in case of Slovenia, what you call 'taking italian territory away' I think it was just regaining territory taken after WWI. (more or less)


----------



## friedrichstrasse

Via Stalingrado is named after the Battle of Stalingrad, not after the dictator. No one knows this battle as "Battle of Volgograd"...

Anyway Bologna has the viale Lenin, named after him.



hofburg said:


> I think it was just regaining territory taken after WWI. (more or less)


:nono:


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> That is about Austria, but I think they just plow the Glossglockner route if it is not late into Fall...
> 
> Most Italian passes could be kept opened year-round (though not all), but the costs probably don't justify it now that there are tunnels and other routes to get around. Even the Passo Stelvio was once kept opened year-round. I think they had wooden sheds to prevent avalanche overflows in some places.


Stelvio pass had never been cleaned in winter. In the past they used to cross it with horse-drawn sledges. You can remove the snow from alpine roads but you cannot protect them from avalanches falling from above.


----------



## italystf

hofburg said:


> I don't see any reason whatsoever why there would be Tito streets in Italy or even Slovenia. However, in case of Slovenia, what you call 'taking italian territory away' I think it was just regaining territory taken after WWI. (more or less)


So it Austria invades you it's fine because once you were in Austria. :troll:


----------



## narkelion

bogdymol said:


> A dam seen from the road:


This dam is sadly famous... It's called "diga del Vajont", and in 1963 a big piece of the mountain above fell in the artificial lake, pushing all the water over the dam down in the valley, destroying many towns and killing 2000 people.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disastro_del_Vajont (sorry but I couldn't find the English wiki page).


----------



## friedrichstrasse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajont_Dam


----------



## Suburbanist

hofburg said:


> I don't see any reason whatsoever why there would be Tito streets in Italy or even Slovenia. However, in case of Slovenia, what you call 'taking italian territory away' I think it was just regaining territory taken after WWI. (more or less)


Well, I won't extend much on the off-topic, but while Italy had annexed some lands there after WW1, there had been Italianized (Venetian) settlements in Dalmatia since 17th Century.

I'm not arguing whether the outcome of WW2 was reasonable or not in respect to people living there. Things were complicated and it was decided under pressure from the commies that ethnic Italians were to be expelled. However, that doesn't mean communist statesmen responsible for pushing for this solution should be honored in Italy, that is the bizarre part.


----------



## hofburg

^yes I agree with that, also on today's Slovenian coast there were Italian or better Venetian setlements, but so were Slovenian setlements in today's Italy. today's border is a compromise, and it is impossible to make an ideal border. that's why we have minorities on both sides.



italystf said:


> So it Austria invades you it's fine because once you were in Austria. :troll:


you know it's not the same  (ethnic criteria...)


----------



## friedrichstrasse

We won the IWW and we acquired some land. We lost the IIWW and we gave some land away.

That's the result of the history, and has nothing to do with supposed "ethnical rights". Take a look at South Tyrol...


----------



## Mom44

bogdymol said:


> Exiting A4 near Padova to A13 to Bologna:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuel prices along the motorway:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of destinations on this signs near Bologna:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another nice looking bridge:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On tangenziale Bologna:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My hotel was on Via Stalingrado, so I took this exit:


*Well done my friend ( bogdymol )
i like the bridge . it's my favourite*


----------



## Suburbanist

friedrichstrasse said:


> We won the IWW and we acquired some land. We lost the IIWW and we gave some land away.
> 
> That's the result of the history, and has nothing to do with supposed "ethnical rights". Take a look at South Tyrol...


Sure. My point is only that foreigners who were directly responsible for reducing the territorial extent of Italy shouldn't be commemorated in Italy with street names, statues etc. . Just that


----------



## Verso

friedrichstrasse said:


> We won the IWW and we acquired some land. We lost the IIWW and we gave some land away.
> 
> That's the result of the history, and has nothing to do with supposed "ethnical rights". Take a look at South Tyrol...


Italy won WWI started by stupid Austrian politicians, not Slovenes who happened to live in Austria-Hungary and didn't wanna live there anyway. Also, A-H never declared war to Italy, so the Battles of the Isonzo are considered strictly defensive. To make things even worse, we won these battles, but were taken territory away anyway. Talk about dying for nothing.


----------



## darko06

friedrichstrasse said:


> Via Stalingrado is named after the Battle of Stalingrad, not after the dictator. No one knows this battle as "Battle of Volgograd"...
> 
> Anyway Bologna has the viale Lenin, named after him.
> 
> 
> 
> :nono:


There is also Viale Zagabria in Bologna, am I right?

OK, there is Corso Bologna (Aleja Bologne) and Viale Venezia (Mletacka ulica) in Zagabria/Zagreb.


----------



## friedrichstrasse

Verso said:


> Italy won WWI started by stupid Austrian politicians, not Slovenes who happened to live in Austria-Hungary and didn't wanna live there anyway. Also, A-H never declared war to Italy, so the Battles of the Isonzo are considered strictly defensive. To make things even worse, we won these battles, but were taken territory away anyway. Talk about dying for nothing.


Who cares? Austria-Hungary lost the war and simply collapsed.

Italy occupied some Austrian land (not Slovenian!) and annected it. So simple, it worked so everywere, after every war...


----------



## Suburbanist

Am I the only one who finds these city names written across the carriageway on exits rather useless?


----------



## Verso

del


----------



## bogdymol

A sign showing information about the works on A1. Maybe an Italian forumer will give more details about this works. I saw some new viaducts and tunnels almost completed close to A1.



















Lots of destinations written here:



















Exiting A1 near Firenze and going to Fi-Pi-Li 'blue _autostrada_':










Toll booths before Fi-Pi-Li:


----------



## bogdymol

Entering the Fi-Pi-Li 'blue _autostrada_':


----------



## bogdymol

Here I think it's a design fault with this up&down road. Even on google.maps you can see it.










Arriving in Pisa:


----------



## g.spinoza

FIPILI is no blue autostrada, not even a primary road, just a secondary one. It is loaded with traffic, though.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Fi-Pi-Li is a blue autostrada, as this sign says (sorry, but my photographer missed half of the sign). But you are right, it's very congested, but this is because is a free conection between Firenze and Pisa.


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> A sign showing information about the works on A1. Maybe an Italian forumer will give more details about this works. I saw some new viaducts and tunnels almost completed close to A1.


It's variante di valico, a new alignment of A1 between Firenze and Bologna - actually between Sasso Marconi and Barberino di Mugello. It's due to be completed in 2015, hopefully.



bogdymol said:


> ^^ Fi-Pi-Li is a blue autostrada, as this sign says (sorry, but my photographer missed half of the sign). But you are right, it's very congested, but this is because is a free conection between Firenze and Pisa.


That sign is actually wrong. That sign is reserved for "strada extraurbana principale" - primary extra-urban road", while FIPILI is "strada extraurbana secondaria".


----------



## bogdymol

g.spinoza said:


> It's variante di valico, a new alignment of A1 between Firenze and Bologna - actually between Sasso Marconi and Barberino di Mugello. It's due to be completed in 2015, hopefully.


Will this new alignment be for one carriageway, while the other carriageway will remain on the old alignment, or it will be for both directions?


----------



## bogdymol

Some pictures with the same Fi-Pi-Li, but this time in the other direction, from *Pisa to Firenze*:




























The speed limit is 100 km/h and there are many speed cameras:




























Firenze is ahead:










Exit to A1 autostrada:










Special picture for _*g.spinoza*_ - Fi-Pi-Li ending in Firenze:


----------



## italystf

bogdymol said:


> Will this new alignment be for one carriageway, while the other carriageway will remain on the old alignment, or it will be for both directions?


Both alignments will be open in both directions.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Both alignments will be open in both directions.


but only for cars. old route remains active for the trucks, if i understood correct


----------



## Autobahn-mann

hofburg said:


> I do
> QUOTE]
> Also I do


----------



## bogdymol

italystf said:


> Both alignments will be open in both directions.


Will the new aligment feature 3+3 lanes? What will happen with the old alignment?


----------



## Autobahn-mann

GENIUS LOCI said:


> No... this attitude is due to the fact that in Italy there are more trucks on the highways than the rest of Europe on an avarage.
> 
> During the week it is quite normal to see on the main motorways the right lane completely packed of trucks in a neverending queue running at 80 km/h
> Every vehicle which run at higher speed pratically don't use it.
> 
> And that's why IMO Italians are not used to drive on the right lane even when it is free.
> 
> Authorities are aware of this attitude too and many signs warn to keep the right lane


 It's ok, but during the weekend or when there isn't the "elephant running" (for german way to say the jam on right lane of the heavy vehicles) should be used but it's not!
my idea is that the controls, persuasion, information and an increase in the rate of sanctions should be done


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> Special picture for _*g.spinoza*_ - Fi-Pi-Li ending in Firenze:


Don't know what to add. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.



bogdymol said:


> Will this new alignment be for one carriageway, while the other carriageway will remain on the old alignment, or it will be for both directions?





italystf said:


> Both alignments will be open in both directions.


It's a bit more complicated than that:
- La Quercia-Aglio stretch (37 km): an entirely new alignment where drivers can choose between new road (2+2) and old alignment (2+2). 
- Aglio-Barberino stretch (6 km): only the south carriageway (3 lanes) will be built anew; the existing stretch (both current carriageways) will be adapted and transformed into new north carriageway (4 lanes).



x-type said:


> but only for cars. old route remains active for the trucks, if i understood correct


I heard that too, but I'm not sure how are they gonna enforce this.


----------



## bogdymol

g.spinoza said:


> - La Quercia-Aglio stretch (37 km): an entirely new alignment where drivers can choose between new road (2+2) and old alignment (2+2).


So there will be 2 paralel motorways. Will both be tolled? If yes, will the price be the same?



g.spinoza said:


> - Aglio-Barberino stretch (6 km): only the south carriageway (3 lanes) will be built anew; the existing stretch (both current carriageways) will be adapted and transformed into new north carriageway (4 lanes).


So it will have a 3+4 configuration on this 6 km.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

bogdymol said:


> Special picture for _*g.spinoza*_ - Fi-Pi-Li ending in Firenze:


 What?
the signal at the end of the main highroad with an additional panel that says "secondary country road"?
WTF?:nuts:


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> - *La Quercia-Aglio* stretch (37 km)


funny names


----------



## Coccodrillo

As far I know, it is predicted that trucks will use mainly the new road (except hazmat), cars mainly the old one. I don't know about toll level except that both will be tolled and traffic restriction (except probably for hazmat because of the 2x2, 8 km base tunnel).

In a second phase another part of new southbound carriageway will be built, including an 8 km tunnel, leaving the old one for northbound traffic.


----------



## CNGL

I really liked the name FI-PI-LI (Which stands for Florence-Pisa-Livorno). I only have been in the last few meters of the Livorno (Leghorn?) branch. The international section of CBRD jokingly suggested merging it with the RA03 for a nice SI (Siena)-FI-PI-LI :lol:.

The Variante di Valico was already U/C when I visited Italy back in 2010. But knowing how Italy is, I don't expect it is much more advanced now.


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> So there will be 2 paralel motorways. Will both be tolled? If yes, will the price be the same?


Yes, both will be tolled, I think prices will be the same but I'm not sure...



> So it will have a 3+4 configuration on this 6 km.


Correct.



x-type said:


> funny names


La Quercia -> oaktree
Aglio -> garlic 




Coccodrillo said:


> As far I know, it is predicted that trucks will use mainly the new road (except hazmat), cars mainly the old one. I don't know about toll level except that both will be tolled and traffic restriction (except probably for hazmat because of the 2x2, 8 km base tunnel).


Yes, but with my car I'm not going to take the old curvy stretch while there's a state-of-the-art new motorway at hand. Not unless they point a gun at me. That's what I mean when I said "not sure how they're gonna enforce it".



> In a second phase another part of new southbound carriageway will be built, including an 8 km tunnel, leaving the old one for northbound traffic.


[/quote]
Not part of Variante di Valico though.



CNGL said:


> The Variante di Valico was already U/C when I visited Italy back in 2010. But knowing how Italy is, I don't expect it is much more advanced now.


Ah-ha, very funny.
As a matter of fact many stretches are practically ready to be opened. Unfortunately, it's all or nothing, so a delay on a little piece of work is going to affect the opening day of the whole autostrada.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

italystf said:


> The SS148 Roma-Latina is 2x2 fully grade-separated but few years ago was downgraded from s.e. principale (110) to s.e. secondaria (90) because of substandard design and high accident rate.





narkelion said:


> Yes, I know, but instead of fixing the road, they lower the speed limit. It isn't a really fair behavior...





Eddard Stark said:


> No money no party


I think it's a kind of trend, but not just for lack of money.

For istance Milan full standard 130 km/h tangenziali are limited at 90 km/h since many years after a series of fatal car crashes


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I don't think Milan East Tangenziale is standard 130 km/h.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
This is Tangenziale Est in one of its 'narrowest' stretches close to the city https://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&l...anoid=QiiTz0jKMBnL0u5IushRtg&cbp=12,4,,0,5.72

This is the 'farther' part of Est in Vimercate (in the narrowest part, in a covered trench) https://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&l...=XGVTeLbSrS0V6FgVnkfDdw&cbp=12,192.69,,0,2.98

This is A1 close to Milan https://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&l...mOnbS-cl1FDs_jB7KAQOtA&cbp=12,325.64,,0,11.58


----------



## zerro

In Italia there are a lot of annoying speed limits. Several months ago I noticed new speed limits at Trieste bypass. In the middle of autostrada A4 there is a speed limit of 90 km/h (between Sgonico and Basovizza exit). If you go further is like 80 km/h in tunnels, that's ok... But than is the most stupid part, just before exit of Dorligo (grandi motori), there is a speed limit of 50 km/h in the whole strech to Triste. This is grade separated highway, and there could be easily speed limit of 80 km/h.


----------



## g.spinoza

A couple of pictures, from Italian thread, about the TBM - just arrived at Porto Empedocle harbour - that's going to be used to dig some tunnels on SS640 in Sicily:



Gualtiero said:


> Contattando alcuni amici del luogo sono riuscito ad ottenere queste due belle foto di Peppe Presti....
> 
> 
> url immagine
> 
> 
> url immagine
> 
> 
> :cheers::cheers::cheers::dead::dead::dead:


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

As far as i know it will be used to bore a railways tunnel

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/13_...te_cec5e634-155b-11e3-8320-f9ee5bd09b2b.shtml


----------



## g.spinoza

GENIUS LOCI said:


> As far as i know it will be used to bore a railways tunnel
> 
> http://www.corriere.it/cronache/13_...te_cec5e634-155b-11e3-8320-f9ee5bd09b2b.shtml


Italian journalism is at an all-time low. The TBM will be used for the excavation of ROAD SS 640, no railways. The connection with TAV the journalist made is preposterous and absolutely out of place.

PS: If you read well, the article later talks about roads.


----------



## italystf

I was looking at the SS47 (or, depending of the section, SR47 or SP47) that connect Padova and Trento. I travelled it on the past (from Bassano to Trento) as a passenger and many people from eastern Veneto and Friuli use it to go to Trento\Brenner without taking the detour via Verona.
It's quite a strange road because it's partly a normal 1+1 road and partly an expressway.

Padova - Limena: 2x2 expressway, it serves as eastern beltway of the city connecting A13 with A4.

Limena - Bassano del Grappa: normal 1+1 road with at-grade junctions and driveways. The Cittadella beltway it's grade-separated.

Bassano del Grappa beltway: mostly 2x2 expressway, except the most southern part, 1+1 but grade-separated. Classificated as SR14var.

Bassano del Grappa - Torre: 1+1 road

Torre - Solagna: 2x2 expressway for just 1km, don't know why

Solagna - Carpanè: 1+1

Carpanè - Rivalta: 2x2 expressway

Rivalta - San Marino (not the Republic): 2x2 without median, grade-separated

San Marino - Tollo: long section of 2x2 expressway. It includes the junction with the SS50 to Feltre - Belluno - Fiera di Primero - Passo Rolle, that is built with a quite unusual underground trumpeth interchange.

Tollo - Strigno: 1+1

Strigno - Campiello: 2x2 expressway

Campiello - San Cristoforo: 1+1, but with many grade-separated junctions

San Cristoforo - Trento: 2x2 expressway, it bypass the city with a long tunnel that connect directly with the A22.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ NEarby there is the scary Passo Manghe


----------



## italystf

^^There's better (near Besenello, Trento)

















Total lenght: 7,5km
Average gradient: 17,6%
Max gradient: 45%

However it's not open to traffic:








Otherwise it would be the steepest road in the world. The steepest public road in the world is in New Zealand and it's "only" 35%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Street


----------



## darko06

zerro said:


> In Italia there are a lot of annoying speed limits. Several months ago I noticed new speed limits at Trieste bypass. In the middle of autostrada A4 there is a speed limit of 90 km/h (between Sgonico and Basovizza exit). If you go further is like 80 km/h in tunnels, that's ok... But than is the most stupid part, just before exit of Dorligo (grandi motori), there is a speed limit of 50 km/h in the whole strech to Triste. This is grade separated highway, and there could be easily speed limit of 80 km/h.


This speed limit is really ridiculous, it is about two years old, before that was 70 kmh if I remembered well...
:bash:
Hovever, only 20% of drivers obey it, other are driving about 70 kmh (I drive once a month there, so this observation of mine should be accurate)...


----------



## g.spinoza

Inspections have started on lands that will be affected by lot II.6 of A33 Asti-Cuneo. Works on this lot, featuring two 3+ km tunnels under Verduno hill, have not started yet and are really late.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> Italian journalism is at an all-time low. The TBM will be used for the excavation of ROAD SS 640, no railways. The connection with TAV the journalist made is preposterous and absolutely out of place.
> 
> PS: If you read well, the article later talks about roads.


hno:


----------



## Autobahn-mann

I've a question, and I hope is not a OT...
I think that many of you knows the Motorways exitslist site http://motorways-exitlists.com/
It's in a continuing updating... But the page about Italy isn't update since 2004!! the last update most recent is the add of "Passante di Mestre" on A4 and the add of Tangenziale di Mestre as A57
I've try more times to contact the author and other references at the e-mail address wrote in its homepage (Contact:michal(dot)halabica(at)motorways-exitlists(dot)com) but without any answer..
Did you know why? Baceuse from 2009 there's a lot of change


----------



## x-type

Autobahn-mann said:


> I've a question, and I hope is not a OT...
> I think that many of you knows the Motorways exitslist site http://motorways-exitlists.com/
> It's in a continuing updating... But the page about Italy isn't update since 2004!! the last update most recent is the add of "Passante di Mestre" on A4 and the add of Tangenziale di Mestre as A57
> I've try more times to contact the author and other references at the e-mail address wrote in its homepage (Contact:michal(dot)halabica(at)motorways-exitlists(dot)com) but without any answer..
> Did you know why? Baceuse from 2009 there's a lot of change


Michal is often on long vacation. he always responded me on my mails. curently i am waiting a response from him, too.


----------



## Verso

Is this guy (Michal Halabica) registered on SSC?


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> Is this guy (Michal Halabica) registered on SSC?


i don't think so, but i think it would be really great if he was here. the guy is really pleasant to communicate with.
there is certain Michal Halabica who is some high positioned person in Slovak Ministry of transportation responsible for road traffic, that might be him.


----------



## hofburg

*A34 update*

(sorry for bad quality)


3 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


4 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


5 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


6 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

btw, Gorizia distance signs are always with 0,5 


7 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


8 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


9 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


10 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## Luki_SL

^^On the Google Maps, there is still no A34 signed on this road...


----------



## hofburg

DSC02510 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02519 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02525 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

Great view of Trieste


DSC02530a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02540a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02545a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

... Muggia


DSC02533a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

... Koper


DSC02549a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02542a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

... sopraelevata


DSC02546a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

and Crni Kal


DSC02556a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02559a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

back down


DSC02563 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02570 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

towards the center


DSC02572a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02573a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02575a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02585 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02589a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02587a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02592 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02598a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02599a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02601a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02603a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02604a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02605a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02615 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02618a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02622a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

DSC02624a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02625a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02627a by hofburgh4, on Flickr

:cheers:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Nice!
Did one of those signs say "check-in ferry Turchia"? As in Turkey?


----------



## Verso

hofburg said:


> DSC02456a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


Why do they change these signs all the time? And where is Ljubljana? :colbert:


----------



## g.spinoza

By the way I just checked Wikipedia, it says "end 2014"... and I didn't edit in the meantime!

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_Valdastico#Tabella_percorso_2

Last box, near "Strada statale 434 Transpolesana"


----------



## g.spinoza

A truck transporting paper caught fire inside a tunnel in the Apennines' northbound stretch of A1. The Castagna tunnel was damaged by the fire, so it was shut down and a one-carriageway-only detour has been established. Queues reached 26 km at 11:20 am.

http://firenze.repubblica.it/cronac..._a_24_km_di_coda_in_a1-67305205/?ref=HREC1-10


----------



## narkelion

g.spinoza said:


> A truck transporting paper caught fire inside a tunnel in the Apennines' northbound stretch of A1. The Castagna tunnel was damaged by the fire, so it was shut down and a one-carriageway-only detour has been established. Queues reached 26 km at 11:20 am.
> 
> http://firenze.repubblica.it/cronac..._a_24_km_di_coda_in_a1-67305205/?ref=HREC1-10


Not a new fact... It happened before: http://www.repubblica.it/2008/08/se...incendio/camion-incendio/camion-incendio.html

The worst part of the whole italian highway system: the A1 between Barberino del Mugello and Roncobilaccio.

Hopefully Variante di Valico will "fix" this problem.


----------



## javimix19

^^

- Regarding this matter how are the old motorways in Italy? 

I am young, but I hear here in Spain that in 50's and 60's Italy built a lot of motorways. In Spain people envy how Italy was developed in that years, creating a model to the other South Mediterranean contries. (not only in transportation, but in other facts).

- Do you think that old motorways are good now? I think that with the time they are being reconstructed.


----------



## keber

They are not good especially not tunnels. They are ok in nice weather and low traffic but accidents are common especially at such curvy narrow mountainous motorways. I never had good feeling driving between Bologna and Firenze even if it is otherwise picturesque and interesting motorway. But when you see appalling condition of some of the tunnels then you see that time has come time to completely reconstruct motorway.


----------



## g.spinoza

javimix19 said:


> ^^
> 
> - Regarding this matter how are the old motorways in Italy?
> 
> I am young, but I hear here in Spain that in 50's and 60's Italy built a lot of motorways. In Spain people envy how Italy was developed in that years, creating a model to the other South Mediterranean contries. (not only in transportation, but in other facts).
> 
> - Do you think that old motorways are good now? I think that with the time they are being reconstructed.


The Italian motorway backbones were opened between 1958 and 1974, roughly. After 1975 and until 2001 no new motorways were built - a law forbade it - but construction still went on, on stretches approved before 1975.

Apart from A3 which is an outlier, being fixed as we speak, Italian motorways even the old ones are generally good and up-to-date, mainly because many of them have been enlarged during the years and updated to current standards.


----------



## narkelion

javimix19 said:


> ^^
> 
> - Regarding this matter how are the old motorways in Italy?
> 
> I am young, but I hear here in Spain that in 50's and 60's Italy built a lot of motorways. In Spain people envy how Italy was developed in that years, creating a model to the other South Mediterranean contries. (not only in transportation, but in other facts).
> 
> - Do you think that old motorways are good now? I think that with the time they are being reconstructed.


I quote g.spinoza above my post. Generally speaking, motorway, old and new ones, are pretty good. 
That stretch of A1 between Firenze and Bologna was a masterpiece of engineering: tunnels, viaducts, bridges in places where building something is really hard! You have to cross the entire Appennini mountains, in a really tiny and narrow valley.

Look at A24/A25: this motorway, built between 1963 and 2009, is awesome: 2 lanes, 130km/h limit for all the route (except some really small parts at 110), and is the highest motorway in Europe (it reaches 1100mt above sea level). Moreover, there is the one of the longest double-tunnel (10173 mt - Gran Sasso) in all EU. First tunnel opened in 1984, and it was really amazing for that time.


That part of the A1 is now being replaced with the "Variante di Valico", a new motorway that avoid all those bends and those bridges, going more in tunnels.


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> Look at A24/A25: and is the highest motorway in Europe (it reaches 1100mt above sea level).


Both Italian A22 and A5, and their transalpine counterparts, reach and overcome the 1300 m mark, though.


----------



## narkelion

g.spinoza said:


> Both Italian A22 and A5, and their transalpine counterparts, reach and overcome the 1300 m mark, though.


Really? I knew that 1100 was the highest... Where do they reach that mark?


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> Really? I knew that 1100 was the highest... Where do they reach that mark?


Just check the altitude of Brennerpass...

BTW, A-1 in Spain reaches 1580 m asl.


----------



## narkelion

g.spinoza said:


> Just check the altitude of Brennerpass...
> 
> BTW, A-1 in Spain reaches 1580 m asl.


Ok, so I was wrong. I was sure though about that... I think I read it in a flyer made by A24 society. :lol::lol:


Is it possible that it was the highest at the time of the opening?


----------



## Suburbanist

Italian freeways were in somehow bad maintenance state compared to German or British ones in the 1980s and 1990s. Outdated rest areas, fainting lane markings, overgrown grass, patchy pavement, old guard-rails. Then, government put most of the network under private concession, and the maintenance standards increased immensely, and accident and death/injury rates plummeted (deaths per billion km were reduced 84% between 1995 and 2011).

They also rebuilt many rest areas, some of which used to be filthy and dodgy at nights.

During the private concession period, some critical works were done, like the 4th lane on A1 Modena-Bologna.

Pavement on Italian private-managed freeways is spotless and shiny. Signs are always working, with many electronic panels. There is also frequent landscape maintenance.

As for the tunnels, Italy has a very high number of freeway tunnels. Actually, it has the highest individual count of highway tunnels in the World, and more than 4% of "austostrade" network total length is underground. So they hundreds of highway underground structures, not all in the best shape, I agree. 

There are, however, problems with highways that are not managed by private concessionaires. A3 modernization works have been going on for a decade. Parts of the network in Sicilia island look a bit abandoned, some sectors face lengthy lane restrictions as they slowly fix old viaducts. There was a scandal when parts of A18 near Avola, which had been built not long ago, had to be completely revamped as they did shoddy earthworks and the road became a roller coaster.

So I'd say CAS and ANAS don't do a good job managing their highways compared to government entities in other countries like Austria, Germany, Netherlands, Spain...


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> Ok, so I was wrong. I was sure though about that... I think I read it in a flyer made by A24 society. :lol::lol:
> 
> 
> Is it possible that it was the highest at the time of the opening?


A24 reaches 1100 at the northern portal of tunnel S. Rocco, between A25 and L'Aquila; that stretch was opened in 1969. A22 reached Brennerpass in 1971, so I guess it's possible.

EDIT: The Spanish motorway I mentioned earlier should *only* reach 1440 m, I was wrong.


----------



## italystf

narkelion said:


> Not a new fact... It happened before: http://www.repubblica.it/2008/08/se...incendio/camion-incendio/camion-incendio.html
> 
> The worst part of the whole italian highway system: the A1 between Barberino del Mugello and Roncobilaccio.
> 
> Hopefully Variante di Valico will "fix" this problem.


In 2007 I waited more than a hour on this stretch because of a truck fire.hno:
Roncobilaccio and Barberino del Mugello are among the most frequently mentioned places on the Italian traffic news radio ("Ondaverde", literally "green wave").



Suburbanist said:


> Italian freeways were in somehow bad maintenance state compared to German or British ones in the 1980s and 1990s. Outdated rest areas, fainting lane markings, overgrown grass, patchy pavement, old guard-rails. Then, government put most of the network under private concession, and the maintenance standards increased immensely, and accident and death/injury rates plummeted (deaths per billion km were reduced 84% between 1995 and 2011).
> 
> They also rebuilt many rest areas, some of which used to be filthy and dodgy at nights.
> 
> During the private concession period, some critical works were done, like the 4th lane on A1 Modena-Bologna.
> 
> Pavement on Italian private-managed freeways is spotless and shiny. Signs are always working, with many electronic panels. There is also frequent landscape maintenance.
> 
> As for the tunnels, Italy has a very high number of freeway tunnels. Actually, it has the highest individual count of highway tunnels in the World, and more than 4% of "austostrade" network total length is underground. So they hundreds of highway underground structures, not all in the best shape, I agree.
> 
> There are, however, problems with highways that are not managed by private concessionaires. A3 modernization works have been going on for a decade. Parts of the network in Sicilia island look a bit abandoned, some sectors face lengthy lane restrictions as they slowly fix old viaducts. There was a scandal when parts of A18 near Avola, which had been built not long ago, had to be completely revamped as they did shoddy earthworks and the road became a roller coaster.
> 
> So I'd say CAS and ANAS don't do a good job managing their highways compared to government entities in other countries like Austria, Germany, Netherlands, Spain...


It's true, you hardly any find bad tolled highways, apart A18 and A20 (CAS managed).
However, in the past years, also ANAS did something good: for example the Catania-Syracuse motorway (very technologically advanced and completed in just 4 years) and the 3rd lane along the entire GRA.
A3 recostruction works are lasting a shamefully long time, but parts already opened are of a very good quality, especially considering that it's a toll-free motorway. No other Italian motorway has hard shoulders on all tunnels, not even those opened in the 1990s-2000s (A27, A5, A32).


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I think A3 should be tolled after works are completed in full. It is not justifiable to let that highway toll-free whereas anywhere else all major highways are tolled.


----------



## javimix19

^^

I read that A3 and other motorways in the South of Italy are toll free to help development of this region. 

- I don't know if the South now in 2013 is poor or not, but comparing to the North... perhaps yes. I think that this motorways should be toll free. But it is my opinion, I don't know social and transport reality in the South, so... I ask.


----------



## g.spinoza

Yes, South is still undeveloped compared to the North, but these "gifts" are not the way to go... some, may I say many, people in the North are sick of this, especially since it wasn't effective in reducing the gap with the North. Without erasing organized crime there's no hope for the South, tolls or no tolls.


----------



## Suburbanist

javimix19 said:


> ^^
> 
> I read that A3 and other motorways in the South of Italy are toll free to help development of this region.


I think rebuilding the highway (which was actually a expressway before) at very high costs to the highest standards in Italy is enough of a help to economic development. Charging tolls to keep the road in good condition is fair.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Where is the "border line" between North and South? I also hear a lot about this, also in Romania. I remember one time, a Romanian told the Italian investor that Romanian work quality is shamefully not so good, but then the Italian said, maybe not compared to the North, but compared to the South it's great and they like working in/with Romania.


----------



## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> ^^Where is the "border line" between North and South? I also hear a lot about this, also in Romania. I remember one time, a Romanian told the Italian investor that Romanian work quality is shamefully not so good, but then the Italian said, maybe not compared to the North, but compared to the South it's great and they like working in/with Romania.


It depends on the context. Nowadays the border line is generally considered the south border of Latium and Marche. Sardinia may or may not be included. Historically it was a bit different, because the border was considered the one with Two Sicilies Kingdom, so also part of Latium (parts of provinces Rieti, Frosinone and Latina) were considered south. In this context, Sardinia is not included.

This is also a big linguistic divide, where northern-central dialects (gallo-italic) and southern dialects meet.

For instance, dialects of Marche region (my native one) are more similar to those in the immediate north (Romagna, for instance) than to those in the immediate south (Abruzzo). I really had troubles understanding my fiancée's father when he spoke dialect (and he did not speak Italian).


----------



## narkelion

g.spinoza said:


> It's true, but not really relevant.


Quote that. Difference isn't more than 1/2 cent per litre. And it changes a lot from station to station. At least here in Rome prices go from 1,920 €/lt. to 1,741€/lt, it depends on where the petrol station is.


----------



## g.spinoza

Walter Bellomo, one of the VIA (environmental impact assessment) commissioners for the Autostrada Regionale Cispadana - a motorway that will connect Reggiolo (A22) and Ferrara (A13) - has been arrested on corruption charges. Apparently he used his position to get jobs for himself and his relatives.

For Autostrada Cispadana this is a - possibly fatal - blow.


EDIT: On another note, yesterday CIPE (Inter-ministry committee for economic planning) approved the definitive project for A12 Tirrenica and unlocked 2 billion euros of private financing. Now real works can begin.


----------



## narkelion

Are you referring to the stretch Livorno - Civitevecchia?


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> Are you referring to the stretch Livorno - Civitevecchia?


Actually San Pietro in Palazzi-Tarquinia. Livorno-San Pietro in Palazzi is complete, while Tarquinia-Civitavecchia is already in construction (it was approved by CIPE in 2011).


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Every time I read CIPE approved something, I remember how motivated for symbolic politics there were when they brought progress on the Messina strait bridge to a halt


----------



## javimix19

I have a questions today: 

- Seeing in Google Maps that there is a motorway betweeen A3 and Potenza (E847), is previsted to extend this motorway until Bari or Taranto?

- How many motorway stretches are under construction in Sicily? 

Thank you in advance.


----------



## g.spinoza

javimix19 said:


> I have a questions today:
> 
> - Seeing in Google Maps that there is a motorway betweeen A3 and Potenza (E847), is previsted to extend this motorway until Bari or Taranto?


That's not a motoway, just a so-called "raccordo autostradale", by all means just an expressway, you can see that on Street View:
https://www.google.it/maps?q=potenz...d=n24wC66D2uQ2adWH0fZXDA&cbp=12,51.8,,0,15.32

After Potenza, it continues as expressway (SS 407) all the way to Metaponto, near Taranto, ending in SS106, also expressway.



> - How many motorway stretches are under construction in Sicily?
> 
> Thank you in advance.


None, afaik, but A18 works (Rosolini-Modica) are about to start.


----------



## g.spinoza

News from Variante di Valico (A1). All tunnels have been completed, except both Val di Sambro (5600 m) tunnels: still to dig 900 m in northbound carriageway, 1100 in southbound carrigeway. Still 12 months of work there.


----------



## narkelion

g.spinoza said:


> News from Variante di Valico (A1). All tunnels have been completed, except both Val di Sambro (5600 m) tunnels: still to dig 900 m in northbound carriageway, 1100 in southbound carrigeway. Still 12 months of work there.


Will they open a part of it, or do we have to wait until the whole work will be completed?


----------



## g.spinoza

There were hints that they may open at least one stretch earlier, but I don't see how they could now. What's really possible is that they open the southbound carriageway between Aglio and Barberino in two-direction mode, closing the current A1 for renovation and adaptation to be future northbound carriageway.


----------



## g.spinoza

Today 1.7 km of renovated A3 opened in Calabria between Santa Trada and Villa San Giovanni. The whole macro-lot 6 (Scilla-Campo Calabro) is going to be completed before end 2013.


----------



## Suburbanist

This was a truly difficult sector (seismic activity, landslide-prone area, troubles with mafia infiltration and even some low-key terrorist attacks on construction sites some years ago). Glad works are now wrapping up.


----------



## Kemo

g.spinoza said:


> Actually San Pietro in Palazzi-Tarquinia. Livorno-San Pietro in Palazzi is complete, while Tarquinia-Civitavecchia is already in construction (it was approved by CIPE in 2011).


Are they going to overhaul the old bumpy SS1 or will it be a new route?


----------



## g.spinoza

Kemo said:


> Are they going to overhaul the old bumpy SS1 or will it be a new route?


Mostly the first. There are some new alignments, for instance near Orbetello, but not many.


----------



## Kemo

So that's many viaducts to demolish and build again.

Or are they going to put "corsia emergenza mancanza" signs as on the stretch near Cecina?


----------



## g.spinoza

Kemo said:


> So that's many viaducts to demolish and build again.
> 
> Or are they going to put "corsia emergenza mancanza" signs as on the stretch near Cecina?


Don't really know, but I guess emergency lane will be on (most of) the motorway.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Accordig to the definitive project here:
http://www.tirrenica.it/testing/files/completamento_opere/corografia.pdf

the autostrada will be 24 m wide for all its course (2 3.75m lanes for direction, 3 m emergency lanes, 3 m internal shoulder.)


----------



## F81

I won't argue the open tolling system (which I personally dislike, but still...) but I feel there will be way too many tolling stations, every 40 km on average, which means that keeping an average speed of 120 km/h you have to stop or slow down to 30 km/h (in case you have Telepass transceiver on board) every 20 min of driving.


----------



## g.spinoza

I agree. Problem here is that by converting a non-tolled road into a tolled one, local population will be left with no choice. In this way, many local commutes will remain free and only long trips will be tolled.


----------



## F81

The same would apply with 4 toll stations instead of 7.
E.g. Tarquinia - Fonteblanda - Follonica - Rosignano
The toll would be higher at each station, but there would be less stations altogether and locals could have reductions using Telepass.


----------



## Moravian

g.spinoza said:


> It's not an expressway, just a normal 1+1 road (except around Trento).
> I drove it in its entirety only once, but I doubt it is used to avoid A22. It takes twice the time.


Some pictures of the section Trento - Ora:




























The SS12 might be the option however not for any longer route like Verona-Brennero etc.


----------



## cinxxx

Interesting sight on the Autostrada A4 between Padova and Mestre 







pictures by me


----------



## weava

cinxxx said:


> Interesting sight on the Autostrada A4 between Padova and Mestre
> 
> 
> 
> pictures by me


American Muscle(ford mustang) in Italy? Seems out of place to me.


----------



## Moravian

cinxxx said:


> Interesting sight on the Autostrada A4 between Padova and Mestre
> 
> ....almost one legend on Italian motorways. And greetings from Padova....


----------



## keber

Actually they are not so exceptionally rare in Europe.


----------



## cinxxx

Actually I was referring to the tree in the middle of the motorway 

Some other shots from the A4


----------



## cinxxx

*Raccordo autostradale 17 Villesse-Gorizia (RA17)*


----------



## italystf

https://www.facebook.com/pages/PINO-MARITTIMO-DI-PADOVA-EST/96978977661
https://www.facebook.com/pages/I-2-Pini-Marini-dellAutostrada-Padova-Est/98133240626
:cheers:


----------



## Verso

cinxxx said:


>


They forgot to add: Ljubljana 117,5 km.


----------



## RipleyLV

keber said:


> Actually they are not so exceptionally rare in Europe.


Half of them are in Riga. :yes:


----------



## g.spinoza

Western bypass of Gubbio (SS 219) just opened today. Eastern bypass (Gubbio-Branca) opened in 2005.
It's a 1+1 fully grade-separated road:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/43.3596/12.5127


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ It was about time!

For some months I'd drive somehow routinely (once every two weeks) between a village near Fabriano and Città d Castello. SS 219 was always bothersome near Gubbio.


----------



## g.spinoza

Autostrada A34, the upgraded RA17, is basically complete. Only minor works are to be finished (lighting and similar). It's still limited to 1 lane per direction, though, by means of traffic cones, but drivers began to get tired (it's been a couple of months now) and use the closed lane anyway.
According to Autovie Venete, A34 will be opened in November.


----------



## cinxxx

^^I drove there last Friday. Kind of frustrating on one lane with 60 km/h limitation. Of course drivers don't respect that, the same on the A4 in lavoro zones :lol:

I ended up driving 90 and was still overtaken on a small tight not to be driven strip on the left side of the road (the right lane was closed, I was driving on the left one).

Overall my Italian experience was ok though. If not for the lane hogging on 3 lanes it would be great :lol: Some did the same also on the left lane of only 2 lane road, I found out raising the arm makes them make way though (funny, in Switzerland too) :lol:

One funny situation, on A4, on 3 lanes, driving in the middle lane, motorway almost empty, a hogger in front of me, was already thinking to overtake on 3rd, when he moved right, I passed from the 2nd and was thinking, look, he got it how to drive, then he moved again in the middle, although we were the only 2 cars around...


----------



## g.spinoza

In one half of Project Quadrilatero (building two parallel expressways in Marche, from the coast towards Umbria) works are progressing fast. Part of SS 77 (between Bavareto and Colfiorito) will be opened next summer. Some pics of the works:

Viaduct Muccia in foreground, artificial tunnel Brodella and natural tunnel Rocchetta in the background:









Viaduct Chienti II and tunnel Muccia:









Tunnel Varano (3.4 km):










Other random pics:









































http://www.cronachemaceratesi.it/20...nti-ad-aprire-nel-2014/382390/comment-page-1/


----------



## keber

Nice report and pictures, just one thing:


g.spinoza said:


> Viaduct Muccia in foreground, *cut-and-cover* Brodella and tunnel Rocchetta in the background:


artificial and natural tunnel (galeria artificiale e galeria naturale) exist only in Italian language


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Nice report and pictures, just one thing:
> 
> artificial and natural tunnel (galeria artificiale e galeria naturale) exist only in Italian language


----------



## verreme

I understood it, though in Spanish we say _falso túnel_ (faux tunnel)


----------



## zerro

Excellent news... A34 Villesse - Gorizia will be opened for traffic on 15th of october 
Link 1: http://www.infotraffico.autovie.it/it/15388/13913
Link 2: http://www.infotraffico.autovie.it/ProxyVFS.axd/Ord-97_13.pdf?rnode=14971&stream=&ext=.pdf


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ It is curious that, as is often the case in Italy, official documents are written on a computer, printed, sent by mail to another public/semi-public office or company, scanned, and put on the internet, instead of being transmitted directly in an electronical form :nuts:


----------



## narkelion

hofburg said:


> They had a thing with 0,5 distances on whole A34. any other motorway in Italy like that?


Yes. On RA11 there's a 0,8 sign for the Monsampolo del Tronto exit...:lol:


----------



## astey

Suburbanist said:


> I like your videos, they are always neat and the image is stabilized.
> 
> Are you planning making videos of Torino-Savona now?


Thank you very much.
The next video in 15 days will be the A10 (GE Voltri -> GE ovest -> Sopraelevata)

I don't have at this time captured videos about the A6 and A7... I plan to make this videos next spring or next summer (I make videos only in sunny conditions  ). But for next months, I've got some videos to produce and upload: A10 GE-Voltri - Savona (both side), A10/A8 Ventimiglia French Border (Both side), A1 Firenze-Bologna, Tangenziale Bologna, A4 Milano Est-Bergamo (4 corsie), A1 Modena-Bologna (4corsie), etc...


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Autumn and winter are horrible for filming anything on the _Pianura Padana_ :| Relentless fog or at least that grey sky.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Autumn and winter are horrible for filming anything on the _Pianura Padana_ :| Relentless fog or at least that grey sky.


Mmm, it depends. To my opinion, summer here is worse. Best days here are in autumn-winter, especially after a couple days of rain.
Some days ago I went to climb a very modest mountain on the eastern slopes of Lake Iseo. I could see as far as the Ligurian Apennines, almost 150 km away:










And last winter, from the top of Monte Gölem, I could reach as far as Monte Rosa, some 200 km away. You absolutely can't do this in summer.


----------



## friedrichstrasse

But this is not the Pianura Padana! Suburbanist is right. :cheers:


----------



## g.spinoza

friedrichstrasse said:


> But this is not the Pianura Padana! Suburbanist is right. :cheers:


The one in the first pic is.
My point is that sunny days in winter may be rarer, but they are much clearer than those in the summer.


----------



## g.spinoza

Spot the difference.

New toll barrier in Villesse (A34):









New toll barrier in Cassibile (A18):








(by brick84)

(This is a bit unfair, since Cassibile barrier is temporary...)


----------



## Alqaszar

I got it: Vilesse is a much greater waste of money than Cassibile...


----------



## g.spinoza

Alqaszar said:


> I got it: Vilesse is a much greater waste of money than Cassibile...


Correct. More: at Villesse there weren't two accidents in two weeks, one caused by a truck being larger than the gate:


----------



## narkelion

Strange toll in Cassibile! Is it telepass-only?


----------



## Suburbanist

I know I might sound repetitive, but reluctance in Italy to adopt free-flow/transponder/plate-based toll causes a couple hundred million Euros in additional costs per year... not to speak of the construction costs (land, special exits) of the plazas themselves.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, I'm appalled of the progress to implement all-electronic tolling in Europe. Technically it's been possible for decades, and technically it's also possible to bill foreign drivers or drivers without transponders. 

All-electronic tolling has so many benefits compared to old school manual toll collection, including lower credit card fees, lower cost of toll collection, lower cost of toll plaza construction, more options for exits, fewer emissions due to stop-and-go at toll plazas, less toll plaza traffic congestion, fewer accidents at toll plazas, etcetera.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ A35 BreBeMi gave up the idea of electronic tolling, but A36 Pedemontana Lombarda apparently is still for it... we'll see in 2014.


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> http://s21.postimg.org/ocx63uf07/siracusa_gela.jpg


wow! double red and green lights! this is so luxurious!


----------



## g.spinoza

Apparently works on A35 are behind schedule so Castrezzato-Fara Olivana stretch won't open this year. They still hope to open that stretch in March but it won't make much difference: the whole autostrada is scheduled for next summer.


----------



## g.spinoza

Works on Poggiolino section of Variante di Valico (A1) are stopped since three years ago. Apparently there is a problem, or better, a controversy, about the unearthed soils and their use. The absurd thing is that rules about the use of these soils changed just before the beginning of the works: region Emilia-Romagna approved to project _before_ they changed, so works there are basically done; region Tuscany slightly _after_.
In an interview the deputy mayor of Barberino del Mugello stated that in the sixties, during works for the original A1, a similar problem arose and it was solved in _under a week_. New procedures extended jurisdiction to no less than 24 authorities who can't agree on anything.

http://multimedia.quotidiano.net/vi...ntieri-fermi-al-mugello-l-intervista-qn-52219 (video in Italian)


----------



## g.spinoza

Yesterday a flooding by river Oglio destroyed 75 m of SS 42 in Valcamonica (province Brescia). Today the road was reopened with one lane only.


----------



## italystf

It's almost a miracle that they reopened it in just a day.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ It was absolutely essential since it's the only link between upper and lower valley. Traffic was provisionally redirected on a mountain little road unsuitable for trucks.


----------



## keber

italystf said:


> It's almost a miracle that they reopened it in just a day.


When there is an important connection in question and in such circumstances there can be very fast actions to reconstruct roads.

When there was earthquake in Japan 2,5 years ago, some important motorway was damaged and reconstruction was done in just 6 days. I remember many articles on internet and newspapers all over the world that this could happen "only in Japan" - no, in serious conditions very fast repair can done everywhere.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

g.spinoza said:


> Yesterday a flooding by river Oglio destroyed 75 m of SS 42 in Valcamonica (province Brescia). Today the road was reopened with one lane only.



Just yards away from the new 5 km long Sellero tunnel. Any chance they continue upgrade the road up north? From this point it's really congested, particularly in the ski season.


----------



## brick84

*TBM moving to Caltanissetta (Sicily) for 'Caltanissetta tunnel'*




huge said:


> Le parti della TBM hanno iniziato il loro viaggio verso contrada Bigini.
> 
> Ecco le foto pubblicate dalla Empedocle.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes, I'm appalled of the progress to implement all-electronic tolling in Europe. Technically it's been possible for decades, and technically it's also possible to bill foreign drivers or drivers without transponders.
> 
> All-electronic tolling has so many benefits compared to old school manual toll collection, including lower credit card fees, lower cost of toll collection, lower cost of toll plaza construction, more options for exits, fewer emissions due to stop-and-go at toll plazas, less toll plaza traffic congestion, fewer accidents at toll plazas, etcetera.


I think we should soon convert all manned toll gates into automatic ones (that accept banknotes, coins and cards). A full electronic toll collection based on plate-recognization may be implemented in a further future.
The positive aspect of toll gates if that our motorways don't have many exits near large cities. Side roads ("complanari") for local traffic are built next motorways for example in Bologna, Verona, Padova, Vicenza, Udine, Trento, Bari and Pescara.
When a motorway is used for both urban and long-distance traffic, traffic jams and accidents are common (A4 in Mestre before 2009, A4 in Milan currently).
However, this also prevent small rural towns located near motorways to have their own exit. It would help those rural communities to be better connected with the outside world and to compensate the negative effects of having a motorway passing close.


----------



## g.spinoza

WalkTheWorld said:


> Just yards away from the new 5 km long Sellero tunnel. Any chance they continue upgrade the road up north? From this point it's really congested, particularly in the ski season.


Yards? No, not really. The road was interrupted near Sonico, 10 km north.

The idea is to build a C1 road (1+1, no at-grade intersections, 90 km/h limit) all the way to Edolo, but there's no project yet.


----------



## x-type

is Italy the only european country which uses all yellow lines in working zones? i like it. even when they finish the road, if there are some works at surrounding, they will leave yellow lines, and they are in proper dimensions, as normal white. all other countries use different smaller dimensions of temporary yellow lines, and they are often just overwritten on white.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

g.spinoza said:


> Yards? No, not really. The road was interrupted near Sonico, 10 km north. The idea is to build a C1 road (1+1, no at-grade intersections, 90 km/h limit) all the way to Edolo, but there's no project yet.


really? I don't go up Nort that often, but I remember the 5 km tunnel, a brief stretch of road that soon splits in two, short, single lane tunnels anf than bang, the sonico roundabout. Do you imply I need to cut on weed?


----------



## WalkTheWorld

*[I] Italy | road infrastructure • strade e autostrade*



x-type said:


> is Italy the only european country which uses all yellow lines in working zones? i like it. even when they finish the road, if there are some works at surrounding, they will leave yellow lines, and they are in proper dimensions, as normal white. all other countries use different smaller dimensions of temporary yellow lines, and they are often just overwritten on white.


Er... Uhm...I am pretty sure I've seen the same yellow lines last week near Rijeka. And surely in the massive renovation site around the cathedral in Zagreb...











Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free


----------



## g.spinoza

WalkTheWorld said:


> really? I don't go up Nort that often, but I remember the 5 km tunnel, a brief stretch of road that soon splits in two, short, single lane tunnels anf than bang, the sonico roundabout. Do you imply I need to cut on weed?


I drove SS 42 only once, well, twice (to and fro), and before the 5 km tunnel was opened. I just measured distances on google maps.


----------



## x-type

WalkTheWorld said:


> Er... Uhm...I am pretty sure I've seen the same yellow lines last week near Rijeka. And surely in the massive renovation site around the cathedral in Zagreb...


in front of cathedral there is a bus terminal so that must be a reason for yellow lines.
at HR motorways you can see them mostly overwritten over white lines, and they are always thinner and shorter.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

x-type said:


> in front of cathedral there is a bus terminal so that must be a reason for yellow lines.
> at HR motorways you can see them mostly overwritten over white lines, and they are always thinner and shorter.


I see!


----------



## verreme

x-type said:


> is Italy the only european country which uses all yellow lines in working zones? i like it. even when they finish the road, if there are some works at surrounding, they will leave yellow lines, and they are in proper dimensions, as normal white. all other countries use different smaller dimensions of temporary yellow lines, and they are often just overwritten on white.


No, construction sites in Spain do also have all-yellow lines. Even the speed limit signs have a yellow background instead of the regular (white) one.


----------



## x-type

verreme said:


> No, construction sites in Spain do also have all-yellow lines. Even the speed limit signs have a yellow background instead of the regular (white) one.


ok, yellow background on signs is not weird, it is spread around the Europe.

here is a good example of what i am talking about. so, the road is completed, there probably won't be any further interventions on it, but there are probably some works remaining around it, so the yellow lines are present.
in the rest of Europe yellow lines indicate only narrow temporary lanes.


----------



## italystf

Also in Austria they use them, but they are more orange-ish than ours.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Also in Austria they use them, but they are more orange-ish than ours.


frankly i have never seen them there. i think they use "german" style, so only on narrow lanes, not where the lanes are standard sized.


----------



## italystf

x-type said:


> frankly i have never seen them there. i think they use "german" style, so only on narrow lanes, not where the lanes are standard sized.


Yes, I mean when a motorway has reduced lane width for roadworks.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Yes, I mean when a motorway has reduced lane width for roadworks.


that's normal thing in all european countries. what i want to say, only Italy uses yellow colour on regular width in work zones (when lanes are not narrowed). and verreme mentioned Spain.


----------



## brick84

*Other pics by moving of TBM (and SS 640 Caltanissetta-Agrigento) to build the Caltanissetta gallery*


_*near Racalmuto (Ag)*_









_*near Serra Cazzola viaduct*_










*Temples of Agrigento*









*Port of Porto Empedocle (Ag)*









by CMC Group


----------



## x-type

brick84 said:


>


again that yellow thing


----------



## italystf

@ brick84
Again, it's tunnel not gallery.


----------



## 1772

*Any plans of a E74 tunnel between Cuneo (Turin) and Nice?*

When you look at a map, you can't help but wonder if there has ever been a plan of building a tunnel under the Alpes-Maritimes connecting the Riviera and to north Italian plains. 
A tunnel under the Monte Argentera between Nice and Cuneo would make a fast connection between Nice/Riviera/Marsielle and Turin and the rest of northern Italy. 
The E74 goes along that route but up in the mountains and isn't that fast. 
All heavy traffic today needs to follow the ligurian coast before turing north.

A tunnel between these two could also include a railway. 

Is there or has there anytime been plans on something like this?


*Edit*
Looking at it a little closer I'm thinking the road could begin at the Nice Airport, follow the A8 "La Provencale" for a bit, follow the river Var valley and then become a tunnel until it reaches Borgo San Dalmazzo and Cuneo and connect to the A33. 
The tunnel should be about 50 kilometers. 
Perhaps a little to long. Maybe the road can go up the mountains a bit before being a tunnel? Or head more east and get out at Limone Piemonte? THat would put the tunnel at 28 kilometers. 
I'm just speculating here.


----------



## TrentSteele

If I can dream a little - the best solution would seem to be to connect A8 with A33 and let A33 continue until it meets the (finished) A51, with a tunnel between Isola and the A33. Then both the A33 and AX to Nice would be of much more use.

Though I guess Frejus already serves much of the potential E-W traffic on this route. Mostly, I just don't like how empty this area looks on the map.. Damn those alps.


----------



## TrentSteele

g.spinoza said:


> Ok, but what about A10 near Genova? All through traffic from South France has to pass there, in order to reach Northern Italy. And A10 west of it is terrible.


What about the A26, which is quite decent? The A10 could use some upgrades, I agree.


----------



## sponge_bob

g.spinoza said:


> Ok, but what about A10 near Genova? All through traffic from South France has to pass there, in order to reach Northern Italy. And A10 west of it is terrible.


It was always terrible, it has no hard shoulders a lot of the time and is really twisty. Then there is a long bridge over a railway line somewhere in the middle of Genoa and widening that would cost a fortune.

The motorway east of Genoa towards Pisa is just as bad from what I remember.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> I was referring to Mercantour tunnel, not Albenga-Ceva. And yes, president of Province Cuneo said it was necessary to build it, but I don't remember anyone replying.


Like the president of Veneto Luca Zaia who recently supported the "Alemagna motorway" project between Belluno and Munich, while nobody else think seriously about it.


----------



## Nexis

*Italien-Österreich A22> A13 > A12*


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Don't know you guys. But crossing borders without even slowing down feels so great.


----------



## brick84

*Some photos taken by me on A3 Salerno-Reggio C.*


_'Frascineto Ovest' service station_











_between Napoli and Salerno:_


----------



## Suburbanist

*Passo Stelvio and nearby roads*

Awesome video of Passo Stelvio and nearby places

Go to 5:01 for breathtaking views of the "tornanti"


----------



## narkelion

Driven in that road last summer. On a motorbike is way better.


----------



## keber

I plan to do it with a bicycle (not this year anymore) - which access is more scenic, northern or southern?


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> I plan to do it with a bicycle (not this year anymore) - which access is more scenic, northern or southern?


Best side is Northern, no doubt.


----------



## narkelion

g.spinoza said:


> Best side is Northern, no doubt.


True. I went there via the southern, because the northern one is not free for motorized vehicles.:lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> True. I went there via the southern, because the northern one is not free for motorized vehicles.:lol:


Toll on the northern side has not been implemented yet.

http://altoadige.gelocal.it/cronaca/2013/05/14/news/stelvio-rinviato-il-pedaggio-1.7063536


----------



## narkelion

^^ awesome! Next time I'll drive it via the northern side.


----------



## g.spinoza

According to Fita-Cna (Italian Transportation Union), Ministries of Environment and Transportation are going to introduce lower speed limits for trucks in the Po Plain, in order to fight pollution.
Fita-Cna is obviously against this, stating that truckers in Italy have already lower limits than in other countries and must follow stricter timetables.

http://www.repubblica.it/motori/sez..._rivoluzione_slow_in_pianura_padana-70220390/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Po Plain is a classic example of a large industrialized valley located in a bowl, that results in poor air quality. It's surrounded by mountains on three sides and the prevalent wind flows are probably from the west, which does not bring a lot of relief from the sea. 

I doubt if a lower truck speed limit would result in a substantial improvement of air quality though. Variable speed limits have limited impact on air quality. Lower speed limits don't help during very poor air quality days, because those are caused by meteorological circumstances (inversion).


----------



## brick84

brick84 said:


> *TBM moving to Caltanissetta (Sicily) for 'Caltanissetta tunnel'*











http://cmcgruppo.com/blogit/


----------



## astey

Autostrada A10 - A7 (Genova Voltri - Genova Ovest) to Sopraelevata di Genova.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Good job on the video  quite spectacular. A10 is substandard for a motorway though. There are many expressways in other countries that are significantly better designed than A10.

By the way, there is new Google Earth imagery dated August 2013 that shows the A31 under construction. The segment south of Noventa Vicentina appears to be nearly completed, but works are less advanced around Noventa Vicentina. It could be the result of separate contracts.










Cable-stayed bridge across the Adige River.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A12*

Before:









After:


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> Good job on the video  quite spectacular. A10 is substandard for a motorway though. There are many expressways in other countries that are significantly better designed than A10.


 but I doubt there are some better expressways on such terrain


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> Good job on the video  quite spectacular. A10 is substandard for a motorway though. There are many expressways in other countries that are significantly better designed than A10.


In my opinion, judging from available road movies, in general design most Tokyo expressways are not much different to Genova A10. Improving A10 to modern motorway standards would demand really massive investments and many full closures of existing motorway during reconstruction. I think that full size reconstruction will never happen as there is no economically feasible reason to do that.

However some things could be done already now like new concrete lining of tunnel tubes because now they look like some old railway tunnels, additional SOS bays, some better signalling (horizontal and vertical).


----------



## sponge_bob

Nothing as bad as the coast road France to around Pisa is designated as a Motorway anywhere else in Europe. It is OK as a 100kph expressway but is not an expressway is it?


----------



## verreme

^^ It's a dual-carriageway road with grade-separated junctions and restricted to motor vehicles, so it is indeed a motorway or expressway.


----------



## Suburbanist

*A3 renovation work progress*

New map (October 2013) of status of renovation works on A3



brick84 said:


>


green = works completed
yellow = works ongoing
orange = preliminary/preparatory works
blue = contract tender in process
red = final design/financing pending


----------



## Suburbanist

More from Italian forum: alignment of future A18 to Gela



brick84 said:


> *Il tracciato della Siracusa-Gela a partire dai prossimi lotti fino a Gela:*


----------



## g.spinoza

CIPE (Interministry committee for economic planning) just approved the project for toll road (free flow system) Orte-Mestre (E45), 396 km for 7.2 billion euro. It will consist of 281 km of autostrada and 115 km of superstrada; works will start in 2015 and last at least until 2021.

http://www.lestradedellinformazione.it/site/home/primo-piano/articolo13891.html

I'm not buying that, not in the slightest bit.


----------



## Mateusz

Will it go through Perugia and Ravenna ?


----------



## g.spinoza

I think so, it will follow very closely current E45 (SS3bis).


----------



## keber

This means that enitrely new motorway will be built parralel to current E45? Wouldn't be much cheaper to just upgrade E45 which does not have much capacity problems except near Adriatic coast?


----------



## Eddard Stark

keber said:


> This means that enitrely new motorway will be built parralel to current E45? Wouldn't be much cheaper to just upgrade E45 which does not have much capacity problems except near Adriatic coast?


It will be an upgrade orte to Cessna, new from there to Venice


----------



## italystf

The real priority it's a new motorway Venice-Ravenna. The upgrading of the Ravenna - Orte section could wait, since there is already an expressway.
It would be already nice if 2021 will be the beginning of the works...


----------



## Luki_SL

italystf said:


> The real priority it's a new motorway Venice-Ravenna. The upgrading of the Ravenna - Orte section could wait, since there is already an expressway.
> It would be already nice if 2021 will be the beginning of the works...


The Ravenna - Orte section expressway (SS3) is in bad condition in some places. It`s the best time to rebuild it


----------



## x-type

is Mestre - Ravenna going to be connected directly to passante di Mestre, or only to A57?


----------



## Suburbanist

*SS106 - new sector opening in Calabria*

SS106 is undergoing a long and large-scale renovation, widening and realignment program in Calabria. On Nov 21st they will open a new sector between Marina de Gioiosa Ionica and Gerace.


Source: ANAS

*Key:*
Green - works completed or sectors already modernized on previous investment programs
Yellow - works ongoing
Brown - preliminary works / preparation for start of construction
Light Blue - tender process ongoing
Purple - contracts rescinded due to judicial procedures
Red - definitive design and/or funding pending

The sector opening is part of the yellow one on the Southernmost part of the map.

Parts of the new alignment can be seen on Google Maps

The SS106 is the less known sister project of A3. It will ultimately provide almost-entirely expressway-grade travel between Reggio Calabria and Taranto. It has several expressway connections with A3 forming a "grid" in Calabria and Basilicata. However, SS106 is very different: it goes mostly through gentle coastal plains or hills, at low or sea level elevations. The coast there is very different, most towns and cities are sprawled along the coast, there are many beach resorts.

There is a tunnel on this new sector:








Source: La Livrea Online


----------



## italystf

Unfortunately I think there will be several decades before seeing the SS106 completed.

Back in the 60s they should have built a motorway Salerno - Sibari - Crotone - Catanzaro - Reggio di Calabria, instead of the present-day A3 through the harsh Appennines and Thyrrenian coast. It would have been longer but easier to built and upgrade because of the more flat terrain. They should also have connected it with A14 in Taranto.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ That would have added some 110 km to total length!

What is debatable is the alignment between Lamezia/Catanzaro and Reggio Calabria.


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> is Mestre - Ravenna going to be connected directly to passante di Mestre, or only to A57?


Nobody actually knows. This is one of the most debated issues for this motorway.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ That would have added some 110 km to total length!
> 
> What is debatable is the alignment between Lamezia/Catanzaro and Reggio Calabria.


They could also have built it entirely along the west coast (skipping Cosenza and the harsh Appennines). They wouldn't need tho climb till 1000m (with consequent snow problems in winter) and it also would have been shorter. 

Past Lamezia, they could have turned east to Catanzaro and continued south along the east coast. Just a little longer than the current A3 Lamezia - Reggio.


----------



## hofburg

google thinks A34 is also A17


----------



## cinxxx

I was curious about Italy. 

I know taxi is expensive in Western Europe, not so much in Eastern Europe, but salaries are also not great.


----------



## Eddard Stark

cinxxx said:


> I was curious about Italy. I know taxi is expensive in Western Europe, not so much in Eastern Europe, but salaries are also not great.


Very expensive in Italy and salaries not great


----------



## Verso

Nice road:









http://www.rtvslo.si/kultura/drugo/nagrada-piranesi-za-umestitev-obvoznice-v-pokrajino/323329


----------



## John Maynard

Eddard Stark said:


> Very expensive in Italy and salaries not great


Almost everything is very expensive in Italy. It's even truer when regarding their salaries.


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Nice road:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.rtvslo.si/kultura/drugo/nagrada-piranesi-za-umestitev-obvoznice-v-pokrajino/323329


It's the new Bressanone/Brixen bypass on SS 12, opened in 2011 if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> It's the new Bressanone/Brixen bypass on SS 12, opened in 2011 if I'm not mistaken.


Yes, it is
http://altoadige.gelocal.it/cronaca/2011/04/14/news/bressanone-apre-la-tangenziale-ovest-1.4227011
https://maps.google.it/maps?q=bress...d=q3GOZclMiG9iTV2ZY4kNWQ&cbp=12,56.19,,0,5.21


----------



## Verso

Yes, it got the 1st prize in Slovenia for aesthetics in architecture (click the link below it).


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Milan TEEM work in progress


----------



## italystf

^^
What area is it?
It looks like a terminal toll plaza (i.e. situated along the motorway and not on a exit).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think it's around here: http://goo.gl/maps/fA4E9


----------



## g.spinoza

I don't know if it's just me but I can't open Chris's link.

Depicted is junction TEEM (from left to right) - Variante di Liscate (going towards the center, where toll barrier is). Here is the location on openstreetmap:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/45.4654/9.4364


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> I don't know if it's just me but I can't open Chris's link.
> 
> Depicted is junction TEEM (from left to right) - Variante di Liscate (going towards the center, where toll barrier is). Here is the location on openstreetmap:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/45.4654/9.4364


I can open Chris's link but it points to open countryside (no existing roads, no street view, no evidence of roadworks).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's the same location as Spinoza's link though. Google Earth has a historical imagery layer that often features newer imagery than the default imagery in Google Maps (but of slightly poorer quality).


----------



## Suburbanist

A18


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Are they still planning to widen A8 Arese - Lainate to 2x5 lanes?


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Are they still planning to widen A8 Arese - Lainate to 2x5 lanes?


Region Lombardy published last May expropriation procedures, so I guess they're still for it.


----------



## astey

Autostrada del Sole A1: Modena Nord - Bologna


----------



## italystf

Amazing view of the "Ritiro" viaduct in Messina (the article is about renovation)


----------



## brick84

Suburbanist said:


> SS106 is undergoing a long and large-scale renovation, widening and realignment program in Calabria. On Nov 21st they will open a new sector between Marina de Gioiosa Ionica and Gerace.
> 
> 
> Source: ANAS
> 
> *Key:*
> Green - works completed or sectors already modernized on previous investment programs
> Yellow - works ongoing
> Brown - preliminary works / preparation for start of construction
> Light Blue - tender process ongoing
> Purple - contracts rescinded due to judicial procedures
> Red - definitive design and/or funding pending
> 
> The sector opening is part of the yellow one on the Southernmost part of the map.
> 
> Parts of the new alignment can be seen on Google Maps
> 
> The SS106 is the less known sister project of A3. It will ultimately provide almost-entirely expressway-grade travel between Reggio Calabria and Taranto. It has several expressway connections with A3 forming a "grid" in Calabria and Basilicata. However, SS106 is very different: it goes mostly through gentle coastal plains or hills, at low or sea level elevations. The coast there is very different, most towns and cities are sprawled along the coast, there are many beach resorts.



^^
*Calabria, opens to traffic a stretch of 10.5 km of new SS 106 "Jonica"*

_Opens to traffic an important stretch of 10.5 km of new "106 Ionian" (Lots 6, 7 and 8), between Palizzi and Caulonia, including the release of Marina di Gioiosa Jonica, in the province of Reggio Calabria._


----------



## italystf

Beautiful night pic of the Milan - Meda expressway (SS35)








(from user DigitAlex70 on the Italian forum).


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> The sea floor there is very different than the flat shallow sediment-soil profile of the sea near Denmark.


And the traffic is much lower than between Central Europe and Scandinavia.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Sure.

Italian priority should be re-starting the Messina Strait bridge. That is a project worth the cost, and one that is much in need! kay:


----------



## g.spinoza

1772 said:


> Speaking of Sardegna; has there ever been a proposal of a bridge/tunnel between Corsica and Sardegna?


Not that I know of.


----------



## legolego

1772 said:


> When you look at a map, you can't help but wonder if there has ever been a plan of building a tunnel under the Alpes-Maritimes connecting the Riviera and to north Italian plains.
> A tunnel under the Monte Argentera between Nice and Cuneo would make a fast connection between Nice/Riviera/Marsielle and Turin and the rest of northern Italy.
> The E74 goes along that route but up in the mountains and isn't that fast.
> All heavy traffic today needs to follow the ligurian coast before turing north.
> 
> A tunnel between these two could also include a railway.
> 
> Is there or has there anytime been plans on something like this?
> 
> 
> *Edit*
> Looking at it a little closer I'm thinking the road could begin at the Nice Airport, follow the A8 "La Provencale" for a bit, follow the river Var valley and then become a tunnel until it reaches Borgo San Dalmazzo and Cuneo and connect to the A33.
> The tunnel should be about 50 kilometers.
> Perhaps a little to long. Maybe the road can go up the mountains a bit before being a tunnel? Or head more east and get out at Limone Piemonte? THat would put the tunnel at 28 kilometers.
> I'm just speculating here.





verreme said:


> ^^ Well, there's Colle di Tenda tunnel.





g.spinoza said:


> There was. It was the so-called "Mercantour tunnel" or "Ciriegia-Mercantour tunnel" and at its longest it was planned as 17 km long, but also a 7.3 km project was presented. It was proposed in the 90s and recently revived by president of province Cuneo.





1772 said:


> g.spinoza said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was. It was the so-called "Mercantour tunnel" or "Ciriegia-Mercantour tunnel" and at its longest it was planned as 17 km long, but also a 7.3 km project was presented. It was proposed in the 90s and recently revived by president of province Cuneo.
> 
> Thanks, they mentioned it in the France Highway forum.
> But I find suprisingly little information about it when googling.
> 
> It as recently reviewed; alas not dead? Great!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which project has revived, Cuneo-Nice or Ceva-Albenga? Would it be a 2x2 road ("motorway") or only a 2-laned (maybe particularly 3- or 4-laned) road?
> 
> Do you have any information about the current AADT on E74 or about the predicted AADT on the future road?
> 
> Are both sides (Italy and France) interested in upgrading that connection?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coccodrillo said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Mercantour? Not seriously.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g.spinoza said:
> 
> 
> 
> Las I heard of Ceva-Albenga was a seriously downsized project, but I can't remember the exact terms.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, no.
> 
> 
> 
> There was a moment in the not-so-distant past (maybe 2008 or so) when France - or at least Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur - expressed some interest. But for the time being there are no serious talks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, but why have you written: "recently *revived *by president of province Cuneo."
> 
> I guess the president spoke out a wish but there are no serious intentions, aren't they.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sponge_bob said:
> 
> 
> 
> The French government produced Mobilite 21 ( the Duron report) in the summer. The only transalpine project is the Lyons - Turinn TGV at a cost of €8bn and that is not a 1st rank priority. This report lists all French infrastructure priorities out to 2030 and ranks them.
> 
> The only (low priority) road project in that region is the completion of the A51 Gap - Grenoble motorway but for now they will perhaps scratch at the N 85 to improve it. Railways will swallow most of the cash for many years to come in France it seems. Even a change of government may change the priority rankings but not add too many new projects to this list.
> 
> It is here, Google Chrome will translate it for you.
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/150366153/Rapport-Mobilite-21
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g.spinoza said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was referring to Mercantour tunnel, not Albenga-Ceva. And yes, president of Province Cuneo said it was necessary to build it, but I don't remember anyone replying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1498129&highlight=maddalena
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1466269&highlight=asti+cuneo
Click to expand...


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Where does the last pic come from?


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ He posted a link to a post saying it is from La Stampa.


----------



## italystf

This route doesn't shorten too much the current Turin - Aix-en-Provence route. It's very conenient only for Italy - Sisteron traffic.
Another solution could be the long-dreamed Albenga - Pedrosa motorway, connecting the Italian A6 and A10 without the V-shaped detour through Savona.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ He posted a link to a post saying it is from La Stampa.


I jumped all the neverending quotes...


----------



## g.spinoza

However, it's a plan from 2006 (before the crisis, mind you), and it will never ever be built.


----------



## brick84

*SS 106 'Jonica' in Calabria*

_Video from the opening of the last week of new the new section Locri Merici to Marina di Gioiosa Jonica (Reggio Calabria)_


----------



## brick84

*A3 Napoli-Reggio Calabria*

next opening...


----------



## g.spinoza

Progress in A35 between May and December



GIO'1 said:


> *AVANZAMENTO BREBEMI*
> Per l'autostrada ormai siamo quasi alla segnaletica (parlo della tratta milanese):
> 
> Tratta *Cassano d'Adda – Pozzuolo Martesana:direzione Milano *
> 
> situazione a *maggio 2013:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> situazione a *dicembre 2013*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *direzione Treviglio – Brescia*
> 
> sempre *maggio 2013 *(ripresa da sud (Albignano)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> e *dicembre 2013* ripresa da nord (Cassano)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Will the first segment near Chiari still open this month as reported earlier?


----------



## g.spinoza

Last October the opening of that stretch was postponed to at least March-April. If this deadline will also be missed, the whole motorway will open together in the summer (whatever that means, beginning or end of summer)

EDIT: Here they say July 1st for the whole motorway


----------



## g.spinoza

Environmental impact assessment of Autostrada Rho-Monza (basically the completion of Milan's A52) has been approved by Minister for Environment Andrea Orlando. Works should start next April.


----------



## g.spinoza

In the framework of A14 enlargement, section Ancona Nord-Ancona Sud, excavation of Sappanico tunnel (900 m) has been completed yesterday, two months ahead of schedule. Works have been carried out using a new technique called "centina sicura" (secure - or safe - centring). According to Senigallianotizie.it, this technique uses a new kind of metallic centring to contain the walls of excavation which does not need the presence of workers.
Tunnel Sappanico enlargement is asymmetric: current north carriageway is being enlarged, while a new south tunnel (the one completed yesterday) is being dug. Current south tunnel will be reused as service tunnel.


----------



## Suburbanist

Autostrade per l'Italia learned how to get good PR: make realistic estimated completion dates, put on some padding and then be always on time, or ahead of schedule, on road works. I do not condone them, they have financial incenteives to finish stuff as early as possible (usually), and it avoid unnecessary bad press by pushing overly optimistic schedules as it was done in the past.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Keep in mind that A14 stretch Senigallia-Ancona Nord is horribly behind schedule, due to financial problems of its subcontractor.


----------



## Suburbanist

A master contractor has been picked for A18 between Modica and Rosolini


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> A master contractor has been picked for A18 between Modica and Rosolini


Yes, but no newspaper is reporting which one.


----------



## italystf

I remember that before they opened the Passante di Mestre there was a VMS (don't remember exactly where, I think near Dolo) that showed the number of days left to the opening.
There were some problems and the Passante was opened few months later the initial deadline. After the deadline, instead of switching off the VMS, they decided to continue operating it, signing with negative numbers ever day of delay (it was a sort of apologizing).


----------



## Eddard Stark

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Keep in mind that A14 stretch Senigallia-Ancona Nord is horribly behind schedule, due to financial problems of its subcontractor.


It' not horribly late. I would not call 1 year horribly late


----------



## g.spinoza

Eddard Stark said:


> It' not horribly late. I would not call 1 year horribly late


Considering that all other stretches were completed almost 1 year ahead of their schedules, it's like it's 2 years late :sad2:


----------



## Eddard Stark

g.spinoza said:


> Considering that all other stretches were completed almost 1 year ahead of their schedules, it's like it's 2 years late :sad2:


No. Some are 1 yearl early, 1 is 1 year late


----------



## g.spinoza

Exactly. Shifting frame of reference, it's 2 years late


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> A master contractor has been picked for A18 between Modica and Rosolini


Apparently we'll have to wait few months to know which contractor has been chosen. It seems there are some irregularities to be addressed.


----------



## g.spinoza

Expropriation procedures have been completed for the realization of Autostrada della Valtrompia, north of Brescia. Works, awarded to Ics Grandi Lavori SpA of Rome, are going to begin next July.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Do you have more details about this new autostrada? I've never heard about this before.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Do you have more details about this new autostrada? I've never heard about this before.


That's odd, since this is one of the longest-awaited and discussed roads in Northern Italy. 

The autostrada is part of the new Brescia traffic improvemens, like A35 and A21 racc, but its original project is much older.

The motorway is supposed to relief SS345 delle Tre Valli in its most congested stretch (Brescia North-Gardone Val Trompia). I used to drive on this road every day when I worked as postman, and it's really packed and dangerous: imagine a 6-laned urban motorway with roundabouts and lots of at-grade accesses. It basically splits the towns it goes through (Sarezzo, Concesio, Villa Carcina) in two, and for a pedestrian crossing the street is almost impossible. The road carries 45 thousand vehicles per day, steady since at least 1993 (when it carried 42 thousand). Between 2006 and 2011 the 11 km between Concesio and Sarezzo saw 295 accidents with 424 injured and 11 deaths.

However, this road is going to be a full motorway, going from SP19 in Concesio to Sarezzo (the whole project extends to Lumezzane). Its major piece of engineering is a double bore 3.6 km tunnel.

A couple of years ago they were completing bureaucracy stuff for expropriation but let the terms expire, so they had to start anew and now they finally complete this path. So let's wait for works to actually start.

EDIT: A map not really clear though. The motorway shoud go from the red dot under Concesio to Lumezzane, on the big red circle:










Val Trompia valley is highly urbanized and industrialized, home of the world-famous Beretta firearms company.


----------



## Renzokuken

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Sure.
> 
> Italian priority should be re-starting the Messina Strait bridge. That is a project worth the cost, and one that is much in need! kay:


Not this again hno:hno:
Why every now and then somebody restart talking about the Messina strait bridge? it WON'T HAPPEN (and I say, luckily). Italy is almost on the verge of bankaruptcy, we are not there but we are not far. Spending money on something like that is stupid, period.
And no, it's not worth the cost. Not with italian contractor's costs.


----------



## m_rocco

^^ And with so much problems we have with unemployement it will be worst with building that bridge and then close ferry service between Sicily and Calabria, IMO


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ yes, and trains took out of business horse carriages chauffeurs. So?


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## ChrisZwolle

If the bridge is constructed under concession or as a PPP with tolls there will be no immediate impact on the government budget.


----------



## Suburbanist

m_rocco said:


> ^^ And with so much problems we have with unemployement it will be worst with building that bridge and then close ferry service between Sicily and Calabria, IMO


Discussion about the bridge is warranted, claiming the 200 jobs or so that exist around the ferries is reason not to build it is unacceptable. 

It would be the same as claiming Italy should outlaw ATMs so that banks have to hire thousands of clerks and the 60 million residents in Italy would then have to go to a manned counter during opening hours to withdraw cash. Or maybe someone could argue online commerce should be banned in Italy to save physical retail jobs (something that two minor political parties actually proposed in 2007). 

A semi-related criticism is that bypasses and new highways would kill jobs because car drivers no longer would travel on congested village streets which make them stop for shopping.


----------



## Suburbanist

Renzokuken said:


> Not this again hno:hno:
> Why every now and then somebody restart talking about the Messina strait bridge? it WON'T HAPPEN (and I say, luckily). Italy is almost on the verge of bankaruptcy, we are not there but we are not far. Spending money on something like that is stupid, period.
> And no, it's not worth the cost. Not with italian contractor's costs.


The bridge will be built, sooner or later. It would be best to have it sooner. 

When full modernization of rail link Salerno - V.S. Giovanni is 100% completed, there will be a renewed push for the bridge on the rail side as well.


----------



## Renzokuken

ChrisZwolle said:


> If the bridge is constructed under concession or as a PPP with tolls there will be no immediate impact on the government budget.


Alas, believe me, as an Italian guy, it's not easy to write this.
But what you say would work in a normal country, not here.
Project financing and private concessions don't work in italy, it's been proven.
There would always been the chain of fiefs and concessions from a contractor to a subcontractor, and from a subcontractor on, which would exponentially increase the costs (that's the typical reason why A3 is costing something like 35 Million Euros/km ). The so called "indotto", meaning the industry gravitating and depending around a certain task (e.g. the Messina strait bridge construction) has always a dramatic effect.
hno:


----------



## brick84

ChrisZwolle said:


> If the bridge is constructed under concession or as a PPP with tolls there will be no immediate impact on the government budget.


But for italian unemployed people it will have.


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## brick84

Renzokuken said:


> Alas, believe me, as an Italian guy, it's not easy to write this.
> But what you say would work in a normal country, not here.
> Project financing and private concessions don't work in italy, it's been proven.
> There would always been the chain of fiefs and concessions from a contractor to a subcontractor, and from a subcontractor on, which would exponentially increase the costs (that's the typical reason why A3 is costing something like 35 Million Euros/km ). The so called "indotto", meaning the industry gravitating and depending around a certain task (e.g. the Messina strait bridge construction) has always a dramatic effect.
> hno:



You're italian so i'll show you in italian language.

This is my post about the completing of "_Variante di Cannitello_ (Reggio Calabria)" - propedeutic works to building the bridge - finished in 2012.
This post shows the people and which part of Italian region their come and worked on this 'Variante'.



> *Ed ecco un grafico che mostra la provenienza degli operai che hanno lavorato alla variante ferroviaria di Cannitello:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Invece qui viene mostrato la provenienza per Regione dei 300 impiegati che hanno lavorato alla variante:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^
> Ciò mostra come l'opera non abbia benefici prettamente '"locali" e per i territori interessati.... Del Ponte ne beneficerà l'intero Paese!!
> 
> (si parla di 40.000 operai tra diretto e indotto nella costruzione del Ponte! (e menomale che non è una priorità!))


from here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=90521211#post90521211



PS
sorry for my english


----------



## brick84

*Highway A3 Napoli-Reggio Calabria : open to traffic a new stretch (5 km) has opened in the province of Potenza*
23/12/2013

_Pietro Ciucci: a further step towards the completion of works_



www.stradeanas.it


----------



## x-type

linguistic question: why can we see at Italian motorways sign "corsia emergenza mancate", and not "corsie emergenze mancate" or "corsia emergenza manca(ta)"?


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> linguistic question: why can we see at Italian motorways sign "corsia emergenza mancate", and not "corsie emergenze mancate" or "corsia emergenza manca(ta)"?


Mancata means missed (singular). Mancante (not mancate) means missing. You got confused with mancate which would mean missed (plural).


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## g.spinoza

Today the bypass of Laives/Leifers (province Bolzano/Bozen) on the SS12 was opened for traffic. It will relief the city centre by 22000 vehicles per day. Its main piece of engineering is a 2880m tunnel.
http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/notizia/100013122399005

Moreover, the contract for building the Ancona harbor-A14 link has been signed. 10 km and 500 M€ the cost. Executive project can now be started.
http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/notizia/100013122399004


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## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> Today the bypass of Laives/Leifers (province Bolzano/Bozen) on the SS12 was opened for traffic. It will relief the city centre by 22000 vehicles per day.


Wow, is toll evasion along A22 that bad?


----------



## MichiH

^^ I don't think so. I guess it is local traffic.


----------



## g.spinoza

Ss12 is one of the finest roads in Italy but it is really not an alternative for a22. I used it seldom when a22 was blocked for some reasons.


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## ChrisZwolle

Roma

brutto xi by Le Mouche, on Flickr


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## Suburbanist

Toll evasion in Italy is not that common in Italy as it is in France or Spain. There are some exception, though: SS3-bis (for those who don't mind construction sites and lane restrictions) and SS16/SS100 between Foggia-Bari-Taranto (which is the closest thing Italy has to Spain's A/AP redundant roads).

Driving on SS9 between Milano-Bologna or SS12 Modena-Brennero, for instance, is a non-starter.


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## g.spinoza

I tried once to go back from Susa to Turin by Ss25 instead of a32 which is freakingly expensive. The road is not excessively packed, but it's really slow due to town crossings. So it's not an alternative to autostrada, either


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## narkelion

^^ Same goes for A24/SS4 for me... Ok Salaria is way cheaper (156 km of A24 costs 15.80€, while 276km of A1 costs 16.10€) but it takes 1 hour more than highway time.

A25/SS5 is totally unbearable: highway takes 2 hour and 15 from Rome to Pescara, national road more than 5.


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## narkelion

A24 urban stretch works are going to end in January instead of June: 

http://www.muoversiaroma.it/muoversiaroma/articolo.aspx?id=5579 (page in Italian)

These works will upgrade the existing highway, bringing it to 4x4 lanes instead of the old 2x2. This wil separate urban traffic from national traffic, just like A14 and "tangenziali" in Bologna.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> Toll evasion in Italy is not that common in Italy as it is in France or Spain. There are some exception, though: SS3-bis (for those who don't mind construction sites and lane restrictions) and SS16/SS100 between Foggia-Bari-Taranto (which is the closest thing Italy has to Spain's A/AP redundant roads).
> 
> Driving on SS9 between Milano-Bologna or SS12 Modena-Brennero, for instance, is a non-starter.


Also the FI-PI-LI instead of the A11 Firenze - Mare.


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## brick84

Suburbanist said:


> A master contractor has been picked for A18 between Modica and Rosolini





g.spinoza said:


> Yes, but no newspaper is reporting which one.



*"Cosedil"* & *"Società italiana per condotte d´acqua"*

http://www.cosedilspa.com/societa.html
http://www.condotte.com/

http://www.corrierediragusa.it/arti...n-appalto-ufficiale-i-nomi-delle-2-ditte.html


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## ChrisZwolle

What is the current status of the A4 Novara - Milano widening? Google Earth imagery from August 2013 shows it is completed from just east of the Ticino River to Milano, but what about the new bridge and points west?


----------



## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> What is the current status of the A4 Novara - Milano widening? Google Earth imagery from August 2013 shows it is completed from just east of the Ticino River to Milano, but what about the new bridge and points west?


Actually it is not finished, i believe they are just star ring from Ticino to Milan.


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## g.spinoza

Eddard Stark said:


> Actually it is not finished, i believe they are just star ring from Ticino to Milan.


2015.


----------



## JB Colbert

Renzokuken said:


> Not this again hno:hno:
> Why every now and then somebody restart talking about the Messina strait bridge? it WON'T HAPPEN (and I say, luckily). Italy is almost on the verge of bankaruptcy, we are not there but we are not far. Spending money on something like that is stupid, period.
> And no, it's not worth the cost. Not with italian contractor's costs.


Italy isn't on the verge of bankruptcy, this is only in your mind.

The 10 years State Bonds is around at 4%, far away the dangerous limit of 8%.

Italy's problems are only related to an asphyctic growing of our GDP, due to various problems, first of all to lack of investment in infrastructures.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Many people are against "il ponte" because they think regions like Calabria, Basilicata and the islands couldn't or shouldn't have flashy state-of-the-art infrastructure while every single major project in other areas are still to be completed. 

So any project (public, private or both) there was/has been heavily opposed on that basis: the Gioia Tauro port, A3, expansion of Lamezia Terme airport, modernization of SS106, 200km/h railway Palermo-Messina-Catania, expensive advanced monitoring on the Etna, ski resort expansion on the Silla area, desalination plants etc.

I'm not saying this is the case of SSC forumers, but a general attitude that regards these areas as some sort of Mafia-controlled depopulating areas that should be always behind on infrastructure.


----------



## Neverworld

JB Colbert said:


> Italy isn't on the verge of bankruptcy, this is only in your mind.
> 
> The 10 years State Bonds is around at 4%, far away the dangerous limit of 8%.
> 
> Italy's problems are only related to an asphyctic growing of our GDP, due to various problems, first of all to lack of investment in infrastructures.


I think Italy's main problem is lack of population growth and in future even a decline. That means in the medium term aging will be (and is already) killing GDP growth.


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## g.spinoza

Lack of population growth is the best thing that can happen. Resources are not endless, and the infinite growth paradigm is just a fairy tale.


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## brick84

*Catanzaro, Calabria*

_Bisantis bridge_










http://www.brodyaga.com


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Many people are against "il ponte" because they think regions like Calabria, Basilicata and the islands couldn't or shouldn't have flashy state-of-the-art infrastructure while every single major project in other areas are still to be completed.
> 
> So any project (public, private or both) there was/has been heavily opposed on that basis: the Gioia Tauro port, A3, expansion of Lamezia Terme airport, modernization of SS106, 200km/h railway Palermo-Messina-Catania, expensive advanced monitoring on the Etna, ski resort expansion on the Silla area, desalination plants etc.
> 
> I'm not saying this is the case of SSC forumers, but a general attitude that regards these areas as some sort of Mafia-controlled depopulating areas that should be always behind on infrastructure.


It's not that people from Northern Italy don't want people from the South enjoying good services and infrastructures and want to keep them undeveloped.
The problem is that often projects in the South (but sometimes also in the North) are infiltrated by the mafia (colluded with local politicians, administrators, big construction firms). This lead to inefficency, since those works are done with much higher costs and times and much lower quality and safety.

Few days ago, toxic industrial waste have been discovered below the 3rd lane on the A4 near Brescia, that was completed 20 years ago.
It means that the company who built it was involved in an illegal activity of elimination of special waste (obviously individual environmental criminals don't dig below the highway to bury the stuff). And many cases like this have been discovered countrywide.


----------



## italystf

brick84 said:


> *Catanzaro, Calabria*
> 
> _Bisantis bridge_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.brodyaga.com


Pic not visible.


----------



## sotonsi

g.spinoza said:


> Resources are not endless


A workforce-aged population, and even more so the taxes they generate, is around the peak in countries like Italy.

Like food, while there's not an infinite supply, there is not an exhaustible supply (as there is with oil, land, etc) - you can make more.

And tons of research has found that the increase in consumption in the developed world is much higher than the increase in consumption in developing countries where the population is rapidly growing - there's other, better, ways of reducing consumption than not having children.

The rapid decline in population is too fast - we need to breed a little bit below the replacement rate of just over 2 per woman, rather than making the next generation about 30% smaller than the one before with a birth rate of 1.4 that Italy has. Obviously there are massive political issues with trying to get people to have more children (though probably less than if you were pushing for a reduction), so we're kind of stuck with a rapidly-shrinking population. Worse is when we see that as an excuse not to reduce our ever-expanding consumption.

Japan has become a world leader in robotics to provide the elderly there with care - in about 10 years, if they don't trim down the number of people working to care for the rapidly growing number of elderly people, they won't be able to raise the money to pay for caring for the elderly. They are, demographically, maybe as much as 20 years ahead of Italy - not a pretty future.


----------



## italystf

sotonsi said:


> A workforce-aged population, and even more so the taxes they generate, is around the peak in countries like Italy.
> 
> Like food, while there's not an infinite supply, there is not an exhaustible supply (as there is with oil, land, etc) - you can make more.
> 
> And tons of research has found that the increase in consumption in the developed world is much higher than the increase in consumption in developing countries where the population is rapidly growing - there's other, better, ways of reducing consumption than not having children.
> 
> The rapid decline in population is too fast - we need to breed a little bit below the replacement rate of just over 2 per woman, rather than making the next generation about 30% smaller than the one before with a birth rate of 1.4 that Italy has. Obviously there are massive political issues with trying to get people to have more children (though probably less than if you were pushing for a reduction), so we're kind of stuck with a rapidly-shrinking population. Worse is when we see that as an excuse not to reduce our ever-expanding consumption.
> 
> Japan has become a world leader in robotics to provide the elderly there with care - in about 10 years, if they don't trim down the number of people working to care for the rapidly growing number of elderly people, they won't be able to raise the money to pay for caring for the elderly. They are, demographically, maybe as much as 20 years ahead of Italy - not a pretty future.


It's difficult to push couples from developed countries to make more children. Until 50-60 years ago, and still today in poor countries, few people continued their studies and mostly started to work as pre-teens. Family roles were more strict, usually women staid at home to take care of their home and their children and "older" children helped their younger brothers. Having many childrens meaned more people working in the family farm, thus more production. Plus, the children mortality was dramatically high, so families felt the need to have more children.
In this socio-economical background, even with relatively low material resources, having many children was reasonable.

When the economic boom arrived, the society rapidly changed within a generation. Agricolture and industry became less labour-intensive and technical competencies became more important than the number of workers. Also human rights improved in developed countries, child labour became inacceptable, education above the elementary level became mandatory and women got more autonomy and started to work outside their home. Consumerism also began, so children started asking more than what their basical needs. Improvements of the health care and new medical discoveried drastically reduced the infant mortality rate.

In the modern society, having a lot of children, it's simply not practically feasible for most of couples because:
- Virtually everybody study till (s)he's 19 and many also start university. In this period, they usually don't work (except maybe for brief periods in the summer) so they need to be maintained and for a family with two standards wages, maintaining a lot of kids is a problem.
- New generations became adult later and are subjected to parental education and protection for a longer time than in the past. Leaving young kids alone is no longer acceptable like in the past.
- Many peoples, including women, started working outside home, thus having less time to take care of their children. Not everybody has grandparents or aunts who are in good health, have a lot of free time and live near home. Baby sitters are costly and some parents don't trust them.
- Longer parts of the social life (beside work) are spent outside someone's house\village\suburb. The world became "smaller", since comunication and transport infrastructure improved. Parents are more frequently outside home, so they also have less time to take care of many children. Children also want to go out more for sport, meeting friends,... and until they reach the appropriate age for autonomous movement they need to be accompanied.
- People are no longer satisfied with only basic food, clothes and other stuff. Young people demand a lot of things (sport, holidays, branded clothes, games, electronics) to live according to modern standards. And all this has a cost.
- It's no longer acceptable to fit a lot of people in a small house or flat and big houses have high costs.

Even if the welfare state may help family in several ways (contributes for education, health care,...), having a lot of children is no longer compatible with the modern way of life, except maybe for some very rich people. The increase of the elderly population, that slow down the developement since elderly need care and don't produce wealth, is an unintended consequence of the developement. And of course there's no solution to this problem.


----------



## Perennial Quest

Preliminary works started a couple of months ago only in Turin direction from the toll barrier of Rho up to here: http://goo.gl/maps/V3dta



ChrisZwolle said:


> What is the current status of the A4 Novara - Milano widening? Google Earth imagery from August 2013 shows it is completed from just east of the Ticino River to Milano, but what about the new bridge and points west?


----------



## Sunfuns

italystf said:


> It's difficult to push couples from developed countries to make more children. Until 50-60 years ago, and still today in poor countries, few people continued their studies and mostly started to work as pre-teens. Family roles were more strict, usually women staid at home to take care of their home and their children and "older" children helped their younger brothers. Having many childrens meaned more people working in the family farm, thus more production. Plus, the children mortality was dramatically high, so families felt the need to have more children.
> In this socio-economical background, even with relatively low material resources, having many children was reasonable.
> 
> When the economic boom arrived, the society rapidly changed within a generation. Agricolture and industry became less labour-intensive and technical competencies became more important than the number of workers. Also human rights improved in developed countries, child labour became inacceptable, education above the elementary level became mandatory and women got more autonomy and started to work outside their home. Consumerism also began, so children started asking more than what their basical needs. Improvements of the health care and new medical discoveried drastically reduced the infant mortality rate.
> 
> In the modern society, having a lot of children, it's simply not practically feasible for most of couples because:
> - Virtually everybody study till (s)he's 19 and many also start university. In this period, they usually don't work (except maybe for brief periods in the summer) so they need to be maintained and for a family with two standards wages, maintaining a lot of kids is a problem.
> - New generations became adult later and are subjected to parental education and protection for a longer time than in the past. Leaving young kids alone is no longer acceptable like in the past.
> - Many peoples, including women, started working outside home, thus having less time to take care of their children. Not everybody has grandparents or aunts who are in good health, have a lot of free time and live near home. Baby sitters are costly and some parents don't trust them.
> - Longer parts of the social life (beside work) are spent outside someone's house\village\suburb. The world became "smaller", since comunication and transport infrastructure improved. Parents are more frequently outside home, so they also have less time to take care of many children. Children also want to go out more for sport, meeting friends,... and until they reach the appropriate age for autonomous movement they need to be accompanied.
> - People are no longer satisfied with only basic food, clothes and other stuff. Young people demand a lot of things (sport, holidays, branded clothes, games, electronics) to live according to modern standards. And all this has a cost.
> - It's no longer acceptable to fit a lot of people in a small house or flat and big houses have high costs.
> 
> Even if the welfare state may help family in several ways (contributes for education, health care,...), having a lot of children is no longer compatible with the modern way of life, except maybe for some very rich people. The increase of the elderly population, that slow down the developement since elderly need care and don't produce wealth, is an unintended consequence of the developement. And of course there's no solution to this problem.


All that is true, however it's possible to do significantly better than you are doing. Both French and English have significantly more children than Italians. Swedes and Finns are way better as well.


----------



## hofburg

Vilesse toll station


2013-12-28-103 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


2013-06-25-1226 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


20131228_184626 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


2013-12-19-056 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## brick84

italystf said:


> Pic not visible.


another one:









www.letreprovince.it


----------



## italystf

hofburg said:


> Vilesse toll station


Those pics are taken from the parking lot of the recently-opened Tiare shopping centre, the first Italian mall that includes an IKEA store.


----------



## g.spinoza

Sunfuns said:


> All that is true, however it's possible to do significantly better than you are doing. Both French and English have significantly more children than Italians. Swedes and Finns are way better as well.


French and English are richer.


----------



## Verso

I've accidentally stumbled upon this photo. Apparently the A34 is now completed all the way to the Slovenian border (which can be seen in the bottom left corner).


----------



## Sunfuns

g.spinoza said:


> French and English are richer.


So are Japanese and look at their situation. It's a lot about money, but it's certainly not only about that.


----------



## Suburbanist

I don't want to get much into the off-topic, but Italy has a critical factor that reduces fertility: in no other Western European country pre-2008 crisis has it been so difficult for young people to get a foothold on professional careers, on average. The crisis hit Spain and Portugal very hard, so maybe that changed now, but for almost 20 years before that Italy had been a very tough place to start your own independent life as young adult. If you got a good degree or some public employment, that could help. But for every other group, it has been brutal: temporary contract works, heavy bureaucracy for free-lancers, and a suffocating corporate culture that sees anyone younger than 35 as somehow not capable of handling big things (in politics multiply that number by 2, the Italian parliament has by far and large the highest average age in Europe). These are not exclusively Italian problems, but in Italy they have been present on society for a longer time there. If you can't get stable jobs, if you can't move out of your parents' house into something else than a shared living apartment with flatmates, and if at the same time you are educated enough to make some calculations, why would you want to further yourself into a more precarious situation by bringing a baby along?


----------



## g.spinoza

Sunfuns said:


> So are Japanese and look at their situation. It's a lot about money, but it's certainly not only about that.


The japanese are the least comparable of all the people in the world. I know them a little and they are the closest thing to aliens I can think of.

To me it's all about money and job. I have no money and only temporary jobs that require that I relocate every year or so. How can I start a family?


----------



## Sunfuns

g.spinoza said:


> The japanese are the least comparable of all the people in the world. I know them a little and they are the closest thing to aliens I can think of.
> 
> To me it's all about money and job. I have no money and only temporary jobs that require that I relocate every year or so. How can I start a family?


Ok, take the example of Swiss then. Hope you don't see us as aliens :lol:

On average probably the richest nation in Europe, very low unemployment and still only marginally more children than in Italy. Way less than in France or Sweden. 

I don't want to go too much into off-topic here, but there are complex reasons for that beyond money (immigration, support for working mothers, cost and availability of child care, gender equality, societal pressure etc).


----------



## Verso

Sunfuns said:


> Ok, take the example of Swiss then. Hope you don't see us as aliens :lol:


Definitely not. :lol:


----------



## hofburg

Verso said:


> I've accidentally stumbled upon this photo. Apparently the A34 is now completed all the way to the Slovenian border (which can be seen in the bottom left corner).


yes I always forget to take photo of that part


----------



## hofburg

italystf said:


> Those pics are taken from the parking lot of the recently-opened Tiare shopping centre, the first Italian mall that includes an IKEA store.


look here, i am helping italian economy  It is very nice shopping center, a small village of Vilesse got really 'big' with new motorway and open borders.


20131228_184702 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> I don't want to get much into the off-topic, but Italy has a critical factor that reduces fertility: in no other Western European country pre-2008 crisis has it been so difficult for young people to get a foothold on professional careers, on average. The crisis hit Spain and Portugal very hard, so maybe that changed now, but for almost 20 years before that Italy had been a very tough place to start your own independent life as young adult. If you got a good degree or some public employment, that could help. But for every other group, it has been brutal: temporary contract works, heavy bureaucracy for free-lancers, and a suffocating corporate culture that sees anyone younger than 35 as somehow not capable of handling big things (in politics multiply that number by 2, the Italian parliament has by far and large the highest average age in Europe). These are not exclusively Italian problems, but in Italy they have been present on society for a longer time there. If you can't get stable jobs, if you can't move out of your parents' house into something else than a shared living apartment with flatmates, and if at the same time you are educated enough to make some calculations, why would you want to further yourself into a more precarious situation by bringing a baby along?


Yes, getting a permanent job and a house isn't easy but this problem alone doesn't explain why couples with already a job and housing security make few children. The higher average marriage age could be an explaination but a couple can easily have 3 children even if they get married in their thirties, if no other difficulties are involved.

Don't forget the backward mentality in many Italian families, that try to keep the familiar bonds too strong preventing young boys and girls to move away from home and start their own careers.


----------



## Renzokuken

JB Colbert said:


> Italy isn't on the verge of bankruptcy, this is only in your mind.
> 
> The 10 years State Bonds is around at 4%, far away the dangerous limit of 8%.
> 
> Italy's problems are only related to an asphyctic growing of our GDP, due to various problems, first of all to lack of investment in infrastructures.


No mate. It's not only in my mind. If you think that the spread from the BTP (State bonds) and the Deutscheland Bund is the only metric in stating if a country's economy is healty or not , well dude, you need wide lesson of basic econometry from the grounds up.
For starters, try to picture what a Deficit (not debt) over GDP ratio of 103% result in 20 years, which is precisely where ITaly is now after 20 years of sone criminal government.
Fist of all, the spread being low doesn't mean anyhow that the state il stable, as anyone having a very little knowledge of stock options, derivatives and any other stock items used to mask, redistribuite debt and lower responsabilities could figure out.
Then we can move the discussion to the complete absence of industry anyhow, the stagnation of trade and manufacturing, the deflagration of the social state towards an inefficient assistentialistic state, the briberies and the deficiencies of the administration infrastructure (sanitation, transport, telecommunications, and so on), ... etc etc etc
But yes, as you say, it's only in my mind, of course. hno:hno:hno:


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## ChrisZwolle

Is there any idea how many superstrade opened in 2013? 

The superstrade count at 1/1/13 was approximately 2770 km.


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## g.spinoza

Not many. A count is difficult, I remember some stretches on SS640 in Sicily, SS106 in Calabria, maybe something in Sardinia and Tuscany.


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## italystf

From this thread:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1464920

2013 openings

Expressways
SS106 Squillace - Borgia 5km
SS106 Paulizzi - Caulonia 10,5km
SS640 Vecchia Dama - Aquilata 4,6km

Motorways
A31 Longare - Albettone 8km
A34 Villesse - Gorizia 17km

Not that much, hopefully 2014 will be a better year from this point of view.


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## narkelion

In 2014 Variante di Valico should open, shouldn't it?


----------



## MrAkumana

italystf said:


> From this thread:
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1464920
> 
> Not that much, hopefully 2014 will be a better year from this point of view.


Indeed, specially since A34 Villesse - Gorizia 17km it's not actually new but just an upgrade of an existing motorway...hno:


----------



## italystf

MrAkumana said:


> Indeed, specially since A34 Villesse - Gorizia 17km it's not actually new but just an upgrade of an existing motorway...hno:


No, it was a _strada extraurbana secondaria_ upgraded to a motorway. It means that the motorway network increased of 17km.


----------



## italystf

narkelion said:


> In 2014 Variante di Valico should open, shouldn't it?


Unfortunately in 2015.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> From this thread:
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1464920
> 
> 2013 openings
> 
> Expressways
> SS106 Squillace - Borgia 5km
> SS106 Paulizzi - Caulonia 10,5km
> SS640 Vecchia Dama - Aquilata 4,6km


I don't think this is complete. For instance, 3.6 km of SS106dir between Variante di Palagiano and SS106 (Taranto) is missing. I'm working on a more complete list.


----------



## Coccodrillo

italystf said:


> No, it was a _strada extraurbana secondaria_ upgraded to a motorway. It means that the motorway network increased of 17km.


So it was nearly a motorway - it isn't a new road like A31.


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> So it was nearly a motorway - it isn't a new road like A31.


Yes, something similar to what will happen on most of the new Livorno-Civitavecchia highway.


----------



## g.spinoza

Here a more complete list of 4+ lane expressway opened in Italy during 2013:

Sicily
SS640 (4.6km) (Aquilata-Vecchia Dama) 3 december

Sardinia
SS291 "della Nurra" (5km) (Cantoniera Rudas-Olmedo) 25 october
SS291 "della Nurra" (6.2km) (Olmedo-old SS291) 31 july

Calabria
SS106 "Jonica" (5km) (Squillace-Borgia) 11 april
SS106 "Jonica" (10.5km) (Palizzi-Caulonia) 30 november

Puglia
SS106dir "Jonica" (3.6km) (Palagiano-SS106 Jonica) 31 july

Lombardy
SS38 "dello Stelvio" (9.3 km) (Fuentes-Cosio Valtellino) 31 july
SS36 "del lago di Como e dello Spluga" (1.8km) (tunnel di Monza) 3 april

Total: 46 km

And here a list of 1+1 expressways:

Sicily
SS284 "Occidentale Etnea" (3.8km) near Bronte 31 july
SS124 "Siracusana" (4.57km) (Siracusa-Floridia) 25 july

Sardinia
SS125 "Orientale Sarda" (6.6km) (Capo Boi-Terra Mala) 20 march


Campania
SS212 "della Val Fortore" (2.15 km) (Reino-SP Beneventana) 6 december

Abruzzo
SS80 "del Gran Sasso d'Italia" (2.8 km) (SS80-Teramo Centro) 29 october

Umbria
SS79bis "Ternana" (4.7 km) (Valnerina-SS79) 10 december
SS219 "di Gubbio e Pian d'Assino" (5.9km) (Gubbio-Mocaiana) 7 october
SS3 "Flaminia" (3.4km) (SP241-SS318) 19 july

Emilia Romagna
SS727 "Asse di Arroccamento di Forlì" (4.5 km) (via Emilia-via Ravegnana) 18 july

Friuli
SS52 "Carnica" (3.5 km) (variante di Socchieve) 10 may

Lombardy
SS42 "del Tonale e della Mendola" (8.4 km) (Ceto-Berzo Demo) 6 february

Total: 50.3 km


----------



## Eddard Stark

I find that the presence of a great number of 1+1 highways is something peculiar to Italy

In general we have a good network of these roads, which fit well with our orography and the traffic of many areas they pass through


----------



## g.spinoza

Eddard Stark said:


> I find that the presence of a great number of 1+1 highways is something peculiar to Italy
> 
> In general we have a good network of these roads, which fit well with our orography and the traffic of many areas they pass through


I don't like them. Most drivers overtake dangerously even when it's not allowed.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> Yes, something similar to what will happen on most of the new Livorno-Civitavecchia highway.


Or part of the Pedemontana Lombarda that will be built upgrading the SP35 Milano-Meda.


----------



## bogdymol

*A23 motorway in northern Italy.* I want to go back there :drool:


----------



## narkelion

^^ Have you ever driven in A24?


----------



## bogdymol

narkelion said:


> ^^ Have you ever driven in A24?


No, but I was a bus passenger on that motorway back in 2007. Unfortunately I don't have any own pictures from that trip


----------



## m_rocco

bogdymol said:


> A23 motorway in northern Italy. I want to go back there :drool:


Looking to all theese tall bridges from SS13 shows you what a wonderful work they've been done! If you have a chance, drive through that road


----------



## g.spinoza

Price increases for Italian motorways, starting 1st January:

ATIVA (Autostrada Torino Ivrea Val D'Aosta) 0,82%
Autostrade per l'Italia 4,43%
Brennero 1,63%
Centropadane 8,01%
Cisa (A15) 6,26%
Autostrada dei Fiori (A10) 2,78%
Consorzio autostrade siciliane Messina-Catania e Messina-Palermo 0,00%
Autovie Venete 7,17%
Milano Serravalle e Milano Tangenziali 4,47%
Tangenziale di Napoli 1,89%
Rav (Raccordo autostradale Valle d'Aosta) 5,00%
Salt (Società Autostrada Ligure Toscana) 3,07%
Sat (Società Autostrada Tirrenica) 5,00%
Autostrade Meridionali (Sam) 0,00%
Satap A4 Tronco Novara est-Milano/Torino-Novara est 5,27%
Satap Tronco A21 Torino-Alessandria-Piacenza 1,66%
Sav (Autostrade Valdostane) autostrada e raccordo 5,00%
Sitaf - Barriera di Bruere 4,23%
Sitaf - Barriera di Avigliana 4,31%
Sitaf - Barriera di Salberttrand 3,81%
Torino-Savona 1,60%
Cav-A4 Venezia-Padova 6,26%
Strada dei Parchi (A24-A25) 8,28%
Asti-Cuneo 0,00%


----------



## narkelion

8,28% A24/A25? Again? 143km from Roma Est to Teramo already costs 17€, the same amount for 275km on A1. What more do they want?


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ A24 "complanari" near Rome costed a lot.


----------



## bogdymol

I see that price / km in Italy depends from motorway to motorway. Is there any map with the motorway prices?


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> And here a list of 1+1 expressways:


What exactly do you mean with a 1+1 expressway? Road reserved for motor vehicles?


----------



## italystf

m_rocco said:


> Looking to all theese tall bridges from SS13 shows you what a wonderful work they've been done! If you have a chance, drive through that road


A23 seen from the SS13 is just horrible, with all those huge viaducts across the narrow valley and above houses.



g.spinoza said:


> Price increases for Italian motorways, starting 1st January:
> 
> ATIVA (Autostrada Torino Ivrea Val D'Aosta) 0,82%
> Autostrade per l'Italia 4,43%
> Brennero 1,63%
> Centropadane 8,01%
> Cisa (A15) 6,26%
> Autostrada dei Fiori (A10) 2,78%
> Consorzio autostrade siciliane Messina-Catania e Messina-Palermo 0,00%
> *Autovie Venete 7,17%*
> Milano Serravalle e Milano Tangenziali 4,47%
> Tangenziale di Napoli 1,89%
> Rav (Raccordo autostradale Valle d'Aosta) 5,00%
> Salt (Società Autostrada Ligure Toscana) 3,07%
> Sat (Società Autostrada Tirrenica) 5,00%
> Autostrade Meridionali (Sam) 0,00%
> Satap A4 Tronco Novara est-Milano/Torino-Novara est 5,27%
> Satap Tronco A21 Torino-Alessandria-Piacenza 1,66%
> Sav (Autostrade Valdostane) autostrada e raccordo 5,00%
> Sitaf - Barriera di Bruere 4,23%
> Sitaf - Barriera di Avigliana 4,31%
> Sitaf - Barriera di Salberttrand 3,81%
> Torino-Savona 1,60%
> Cav-A4 Venezia-Padova 6,26%
> Strada dei Parchi (A24-A25) 8,28%
> Asti-Cuneo 0,00%


Bad as usual hno: (and those extra 0,60€ at Villesse weren't enough for them).


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> What exactly do you mean with a 1+1 expressway? Road reserved for motor vehicles?


Reserved for motor vehicles and no at-grade junctions. Basically expressways but with one lane per direction.


----------



## narkelion

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ A24 "complanari" near Rome costed a lot.


I know... And eventually they will open them 5 months in advance. But the toll was has already been raised in the past 5 years (from 11.80€ to 16.80€...). I really don't understand this new raise.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Here a more complete list of 4+ lane expressway opened in Italy during 2013:
> 
> Sicily
> SS640 (4.6km) (Aquilata-Vecchia Dama) 3 december
> 
> Sardinia
> SS291 "della Nurra" (5km) (Cantoniera Rudas-Olmedo) 25 october
> SS291 "della Nurra" (6.2km) (Olmedo-old SS291) 31 july
> 
> Calabria
> SS106 "Jonica" (5km) (Squillace-Borgia) 11 april
> SS106 "Jonica" (10.5km) (Palizzi-Caulonia) 30 november
> 
> Puglia
> SS106dir "Jonica" (3.6km) (Palagiano-SS106 Jonica) 31 july
> 
> Lombardy
> SS38 "dello Stelvio" (9.3 km) (Fuentes-Cosio Valtellino) 31 july
> SS36 "del lago di Como e dello Spluga" (1.8km) (tunnel di Monza) 3 april
> 
> Total: 46 km
> 
> And here a list of 1+1 expressways:
> 
> Sicily
> SS284 "Occidentale Etnea" (3.8km) near Bronte 31 july
> SS124 "Siracusana" (4.57km) (Siracusa-Floridia) 25 july
> 
> Sardinia
> SS125 "Orientale Sarda" (6.6km) (Capo Boi-Terra Mala) 20 march
> 
> 
> Campania
> SS212 "della Val Fortore" (2.15 km) (Reino-SP Beneventana) 6 december
> 
> Abruzzo
> SS80 "del Gran Sasso d'Italia" (2.8 km) (SS80-Teramo Centro) 29 october
> 
> Umbria
> SS79bis "Ternana" (4.7 km) (Valnerina-SS79) 10 december
> SS219 "di Gubbio e Pian d'Assino" (5.9km) (Gubbio-Mocaiana) 7 october
> SS3 "Flaminia" (3.4km) (SP241-SS318) 19 july
> 
> *Emilia Romagna
> SS727 "Asse di Arroccamento di Forlì" (4.5 km) (via Emilia-via Ravegnana) 18 july*
> 
> Friuli
> SS52 "Carnica" (3.5 km) (variante di Socchieve) 10 may
> 
> Lombardy
> SS42 "del Tonale e della Mendola" (8.4 km) (Ceto-Berzo Demo) 6 february
> 
> Total: 50.3 km


I browsed the ANAS news for the whole 2013 and I found also:

Umbria
SS220 "Pievaiola" (8,75km) (Fontignano - Tavernelle) 1+1 27 February

Toscana
SS67 Tosco - Romagnola (0,8km) (Variante di Ellera) 1+1 23 March

Liguria
SS1 Aurelia (1,4km) (Variante di La Spezia lot 2) 1+1 2 December

*Emilia Romagna
SS727 Tangenziale di Forlì (2nd part) (2,7km) 2+2 13 December
Also the other section opened that year (4,5km) is 2+2.*

There were many other openings this year but they aren't reported in the ANAS website because they aren't under its jurisdiction. A lot of important roads were ceased to regions and provinces in the past years.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> What exactly do you mean with a 1+1 expressway? Road reserved for motor vehicles?


This sign is almost never used, thus most 1+1 "expressways" are open also to non-motorized traffic (even if almost nobody would walk or cycle on them).


----------



## Eddard Stark

g.spinoza said:


> Reserved for motor vehicles and no at-grade junctions. Basically expressways but with one lane per direction.


Again, they are such a peculiarity of Italy

I know you do not like them, but our orography makes full expressway very expensive in the mostly hilly or mountain country where these hwy are built

Moreover the traffic is very low, these are common in rhe south, the Apennines and the islands outside the main routes where probably the alternative would be much slower roads, certainly not expressways


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> I browsed the ANAS news for the whole 2013 and I found also:
> 
> Umbria
> SS220 "Pievaiola" (8,75km) (Fontignano - Tavernelle) 1+1 27 February


Not ANAS. SS220 is a regional road.



> Liguria
> SS1 Aurelia (1,4km) (Variante di La Spezia lot 2) 1+1 2 December


This is just a municipal road leading to the SS1.


----------



## g.spinoza

Eddard Stark said:


> Again, they are such a peculiarity of Italy
> 
> I know you do not like them, but our orography makes full expressway very expensive in the mostly hilly or mountain country where these hwy are built
> 
> Moreover the traffic is very low, these are common in rhe south, the Apennines and the islands outside the main routes where probably the alternative would be much slower roads, certainly not expressways


They are more common than you think, for instance there are many of them in the lowlands around Brescia. Straight for kilometers and flat, they just call for speed (and accidents).


----------



## italystf

Parts of the upgraded A3 completed in 2013 (by ANAS)

5 March
part of the 5th megalot "Gioia Tauro - Scilla" 9km

20 May
Attilia - Falerna 3km

4 July
Bagnara Calabra - Scilla 5,3km
new junction of Rosarno

22 July
Campotenese - Morano Calabro 10km
Firmo - Altomonte 2,6km
Lagonegro Sud - Lauria Nord 4,3km


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Not ANAS. SS220 is a regional road.
> 
> 
> This is just a municipal road leading to the SS1.


But they were probably built by ANAS, otherwise they wouldn't have been reported in the ANAS site.
Also the SS52 in Friuli is maintained by FVG Strade but the "Variante di Socchieve" was built by ANAS, I don't know why.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> This sign is almost never used, thus most 1+1 "expressways" are open also to non-motorized traffic (even if almost nobody would walk or cycle on them).


If a road doesn't have that sign, how do you know it's an expressway? Is it a _strada extraurbana secondaria_?


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## narkelion

Yes, it is. 90km/h speed limit.

The only difference from a normal "strada ext. secondaria" is the fact that there are no at-grade junctions and the road doesn't pass in the towns, hence the speed limit doesn't lower to 50 km/h.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> If a road doesn't have that sign, how do you know it's an expressway? Is it a _strada extraurbana secondaria_?


All main 1+1 roads outside towns are _strade extraurbane secondarie_. The blank speed limit is 90 regardeless if the road is fully grade-separated (1+1 "expressways") or not (normal roads).


----------



## Verso

Then how did g.spinoza compile that list of new "1+1 expressways", if all main 1+1 roads outside built-up areas are called _strade extraurbane secondarie_ and they aren't _superstrade_? Is there a list of them, and what does it say in Italian?


----------



## narkelion

Verso said:


> Then how did g.spinoza compile that list of new "1+1 expressways", if all main 1+1 roads outside built-up areas are called _strade extraurbane secondarie_ and they aren't _superstrade_? Is there a list of them, and what does it say in Italian?



This is a normal strada extraurbana secondaria: http://goo.gl/maps/QSHBE

This is a 1+1 freeway: http://goo.gl/maps/GHWSO

As you can see, these are the same road, SS4 Salaria. Same speed limit, 90 km/h, and same "classification", as "Strada extraurbana secondaria". But in the first street view you can clearly see at-grade junctions, houses and everything that usually is on a normal road. In the second view instead you can see that there are no junctions, no houses, and there are guardrails all over the road. 

Actually, for italian highway code there are *absolutely no differences* in these two stretches of the same national route. But, in fact, there are some.


----------



## Verso

^^ So someone (I assume not g.spinoza) just calculated the higher-standard sections and published their lengths? How did he call it in Italian? What about the categories C1 (_traffico sostenuto_) and C2 (_traffico limitato_)? Does that have anything to do with it?


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Then how did g.spinoza compile that list of new "1+1 expressways", if all main 1+1 roads outside built-up areas are called _strade extraurbane secondarie_ and they aren't _superstrade_? Is there a list of them, and what does it say in Italian?


Tha ANAS website records all openings in the ANAS road network since 2008.
Virtually all new roads built by ANAS are urban bypasses or replacement routes for old road, so they are generally grade-separated, in contrapposition with old state routes that feature traffic lights, private accesses,...


----------



## javimix19

- What are the main projects of roads in Italy to the year 2014?

I think that Italy has a near complete motorway system, perhaps the main foccus is the preservation of these roads, I don't know.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Opening of A35 and first stretches of A58 and A36, completion of A1 Variante di Valico, completion of A31, (almost) completion of A3.


----------



## narkelion

Completion of A24 urban stretch (should end in a month actually).


There are still some link that I think are missing: something maybe between Salerno, Potenza/Matera and Puglia, and a good link between Firenze and Fano.

Actually, many of the east - west links, below Bologna, are missing, because of a really mountanious terrain.


----------



## Suburbanist

Major missing link is Livorno-Civitavecchia.

On a 2nd-order list of important long missing links are:

- Trento-Ponte Nelle Alpi
- Grosseto-Fano
- Sassari-Cagliari

Most critical pending special works is the Ponte sullo Stretto (Messina Strait bridge).


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ there is a more than decent road between Cagliari and Sassari.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> Major missing link is Livorno-Civitavecchia.
> 
> On a 2nd-order list of important long missing links are:
> 
> - Trento-*Ponte Nelle Alpi*
> - Grosseto-Fano
> - Sassari-Cagliari
> 
> Most critical pending special works is the Ponte sullo Stretto (Messina Strait bridge).


Do you mean Piovene Rocchette?

I would add Mestre - Ravenna among the most important missing links.


----------



## g.spinoza

The huge missing link Ancona-Rome is being (slowly) filled by a network of superstrade.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> The huge missing link Ancona-Rome is being (slowly) filled by a network of superstrade.


You can already travel between those two cities via A24-A14, only 20km longer than the usual route via Terni, Spoleto, Foligno, Fabriano and Jesi.
https://maps.google.it/maps?saddr=A...7jpL5lmEvEzE4bmWTBncPuQ&oq=rom&mra=ls&t=m&z=8


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> You can already travel between those two cities via A24-A14, only 20km longer than the usual route via Terni, Spoleto, Foligno, Fabriano and Jesi.
> https://maps.google.it/maps?saddr=A...7jpL5lmEvEzE4bmWTBncPuQ&oq=rom&mra=ls&t=m&z=8


Ancona-Rome is not just Ancona and Rome. There's Perugia and Terni in between, which are larger than Ancona itself, and there are lots of important towns, like those you already mentioned.


----------



## -Pino-

Suburbanist said:


> Major missing link is Livorno-Civitavecchia.


Make that Grosseto - Civitavecchia. The Variante Aurelia, in place between Livorno and Grosseto is a decent superstrada. Though it needs an upgrade, it should not be lower on the priority list.

Last thing I read about Grosseto - Civitavecchia is that the project for a substantial part of that missing link (the Southern section of the A12 would be extensies to Ansedonia) had been approved and that works were going to start in 2014. Is that still on?


----------



## Galro

Suburbanist said:


> Most critical pending special works is the Ponte sullo Stretto (Messina Strait bridge).


Is that still active? I thought it was cancelled?


----------



## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> Make that Grosseto - Civitavecchia. The Variante Aurelia, in place between Livorno and Grosseto is a decent superstrada. Though it needs an upgrade, it should not be lower on the priority list.
> 
> Last thing I read about Grosseto - Civitavecchia is that the project for a substantial part of that missing link (the Southern section of the A12 would be extensies to Ansedonia) had been approved and that works were going to start in 2014. Is that still on?


Works are already started on that section, namely the Civitavecchia-Tarquinia one:


----------



## brick84

Suburbanist said:


> Major missing link is Livorno-Civitavecchia.
> 
> On a 2nd-order list of important long missing links are:
> 
> - Trento-Ponte Nelle Alpi
> - Grosseto-Fano
> - Sassari-Cagliari
> 
> Most critical pending special works is the Ponte sullo Stretto (Messina Strait bridge).


I would add new Ragusa-Catania.


----------



## italystf

Galro said:


> Is that still active? I thought it was cancelled?


At the moment it's cancelled because of very high costs and technical challenges (very seismical area). However it's still possible that in the future decades, hopefully with better economy and construction techniques, someone will re-propose this project.
However I'm not optimist about this project. Apart the economic situation, that usually changes throghout the years and it's impossible to made long-term forecasts, there are serious technical challenges.
While 3,6km may look like a ridiculous lenght (in the world there are some 30km+ bridges and dozens of bridge longer than 3,6km exist), the Messina strait it's a particular case. Because of seismical activity, strong marine streams and high depth (circa 500m) it's impossible to build pillars in the middle, only a single span it's possible. The longest single span in the world is about 1,9km in Japan and it carries only road traffic because oscillations would be too dangerous to trains. With 500m+ deep water also a undersea tunnel isn't an option (the lowest in the world is somewhere in Norway, about 300m).


----------



## Suburbanist

brick84 said:


> I would add new Ragusa-Catania.


Not so sure about that. Once they extend A18 to Gela, it will be fairly reasonable to travel on A18 to Ragusa and Modica.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A floating cable-stayed or suspension bridge should be considered for the Messina Strait. That way you don't need to construct extremely long spans. This technique has been used in the offshore industry for decades. It's also more flexible with earthquakes.


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> A floating cable-stayed or suspension bridge should be considered for the Messina Strait. That way you don't need to construct extremely long spans. This technique has been used in the offshore industry for decades. It's also more flexible with earthquakes.


Could that work for trains as well?


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> A floating cable-stayed or suspension bridge should be considered for the Messina Strait. That way you don't need to construct extremely long spans. This technique has been used in the offshore industry for decades. It's also more flexible with earthquakes.


Pillars cannot be put into water, see is too deep, hence the reason for long spans.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

With a floating bridge, you don't need pylons to the ground. You only need to anchor it like an oil rig on the continental shelf.

A 3.600 meter span seems quite unrealistic. The 4 longest span bridges are all between 1.500 and 2.000 meters. 3.6 km is another league.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Wouldn't a floating bridge reduce navigability of the Strait?


----------



## WalkTheWorld

:cheers1:


----------



## Galro

bogdymol said:


> The access road to Mantova is quite nice:


I love this view. :cheers:


----------



## Suburbanist

A18 toll plaza









(c) youreporter


----------



## narkelion

Simply awesome :bow:


----------



## keber

brick84 said:


> *Today opened the junction of Irosa on A19*http://www.mobilitapalermo.org/mobpa/2014/01/11/foto-inaugurazione-dello-svincolo-irosa/


4 years ago I wrote this:


keber said:


> 21 - viaduct from nowhere to nowhere, part of never-constructed junction
> http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=37.723597,14.043252&spn=0.013103,0.027874&t=h&z=16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good that abandoned road projects get finished sooner or later.


----------



## italystf

PDF map of Pedemontana Lombarda
http://www.pedemontana.com/docs/mappa_pedemontana.pdf

Interactive map of Tangenziale Est Esterna di Milano
http://www.tangenziale.esterna.it/mappa/

PDF map of BreBeMi
http://www.brebemi.it/doc/bbm_tracciato.pdf

JPEG map of the Quadrilatero Marche - Umbria
http://www.quadrilaterospa.it/cartina_interattiva.htm

JPEG map (click on the small map) of the SS106 Jonica
http://www.stradeanas.it/index.php?/content/index/arg/106_ionica


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Quadrilatero map is one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen.

Landslides in Italy: provincial road Glorenza/Glurns - Swiss (Alto Adige/Südtirol) is closed due to a massive landslide in Laudes. Normal traffic is rerouted through Passo Resia/Reschenpass, but a temporary urgent link has been established using a 4x4 shuttle. In the next few days a temporary road on a new site will be built, and next spring it will be reused to build the new definitive road.

Another landslide in Tuscany closed off two villages (pop. 1000) near Massa. Technicians are trying to convert a dirt track into a temporary road to reach the villages. Here a picture of the landslide:









http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/notizia/100014011599007


----------



## brick84

keber said:


> 4 years ago I wrote this:


now:


brick84 said:


> www.ilcaleidoscopio.info


----------



## Kanadzie

Suburbanist said:


> A18 toll plaza
> 
> 
> (c) youreporter


Amazing picture

If I see that view in my rear view mirror, I am _not _stopping to pay toll, polizia stradale can kiss my ass :lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

Someone from public relations at TEEM (A58) registered on the Italian forum, so we are getting some info before the general public.

Progress (updated december 2013) in different lots:

- Lot A (Agrate Brianza - Bellinzago): 41% (+ 4.5% with respect to november 2013)
- Lot B (Bellinzago - Pozzuolo Martesana): 12% (+2.85%)
- Arco TEEM (connection with A35, Cassanese and Rivoltana): 62% (+5%)
- Lot C (Zelo Buon Persico - Cerro al Lambro): 12%. (+2.85%)

June 2014 is the scheduled deadline for Arco TEEM, June 2015 for the whole motorway.


----------



## bogdymol

Some pictures I shot last summer on A4 between Verona and Sirmione:





































Note that in all the pictures the Fiat Panda and BMW 5GT are always in the middle lane. I drove constantly with 130 km/h and so did they, but I always tried to use the right-most free lane.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice photos. I wonder if the middle-lane hogging is related to the gantry signage in Italy. It is always suggested the right lane becomes an exit lane (while in reality it almost never does). Conventional wisdom after an hour of driving will say you can use the right lane without a problem, but somehow Italy has some of the worst middle-lane hogging you'll see in Europe.


----------



## -Pino-

I think it's more about lazyness than about the gantries. You can put these same Italians on a two-lane motorway and they'll move to the right quick enough. After all, they know that they share the inner lane with some fast-driving sports cars. All this noteithstanding the arrows as used on the gantries (note that there is no arrow above the right-hand lane, so the information is incomplete rather than wrong). But in a situation with three or more lanes, Italians will lose interest once they are out of the inner lane. And since they know that they will need to pass a truck at some stage, they'll take the easy route and not move right in the first place.

During the week, this is not too bad, as the outer lanes of Italy's 3+ lane motorways are filled with trucks. During quieter times, it's true middle lane hogging. During my days in Italy, this had an advantage. In weekends, the outer lane often offered overtaking opportunities when the inner lane was full of relatively slow cars.


----------



## g.spinoza

Gantry signage has nothing to do with lane hogging. Majority of people never even realize the isssue with signage. Lane hogger are simply bad drivers.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ True. And as Chris said, you drive a little bit on an Italian autostrada you realise that the right lane doesn't force you to take the exit. I understood this thing after driving maybe 10 minutes and saw 3 exists meanwhile.

So yeah, it's just bad drivers, not signage problem.


----------



## Verso

Driving 130 km/h (speed limit) in the middle lane isn't exactly lane-hogging (unless the rightmost lane is practically empty). Theoretically yes, but in practice not really.


----------



## g.spinoza

Region Lombardy and province Lecco are financing a feasibility study for the extension of A51 from current terminus in Usmate Velate to Olginate, just south of Lecco.

http://www.merateonline.it/articolo.php?idd=39279

here's a tentative map of the extension (link because it's huge):
http://www.merateonline.it/public/pub_immagini/2013/Settembre/cartina_tangenziale_est1big.jpg

Apparently it's almost totally in tunnel (dashed line). It's section B (superstrada) until Calco, then C1 (one-laned superstrada) to Olginate. Can't find a statement on length, but it should be 20 km, more or less.


----------



## Mauz®

People drive on the middle or the left lane, simply because during the week the right one is packed with trucks and slow vehicles.

BTW, driving at the exact speed limit on the central/left lane it's not stupid, because theorically nobody is supposed to need to overtake you. And the left lane is the one where the driver has the least chances to find a slower vehicle ahead.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Mauz® said:


> People drive on the middle or the left lane, simply because during the week the right one is packed with trucks and slow vehicles.


Uhm, do Italians also go to the office on Saturday and Sunday because during the week they are there as well?

I mean, what's the logic? :nuts:


----------



## g.spinoza

Until not many years ago August 1st, 2003, the right lane was reserved to slow vehicles (no more than 90 km/h), the central one to normal traffic and the left one for overtaking. This is no excuse, though, because many young drivers, trained when the change in designation already happened, drive as bad as their fathers.


----------



## g.spinoza

> Bonus: on the road leading from Sirmione to A4 I encountered this signs. Which should be my driving speed?


In case of different speeds signed, the lower one always wins


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> ^^ I still don't know what Viacard is (I assume it's something similar with credit/debit card), but I used those lanes because they also accept there credit cards (like I have).


That's the trick: viacard is a prepaid card but nobody actually has it (or very few do). I use those lanes with my atm card.


----------



## bogdymol

You would expect to be used a lot just considering how much (free) publicity is getting from autostrade.it (it's advertised at every exit).


----------



## cinxxx

g.spinoza said:


> Viacard lanes are not adequately advertised. Until very recently I thought it was some kind of pre-paid debit card that Autostrade issued. Now that I know better I use them all the times...


I thought the same when I was in Italy in October last year.
Good to know for next time. Thanks!


----------



## Kanadzie

g.spinoza said:


> In case of different speeds signed, the lower one always wins


Does it apply that way legally also? Here for sure highest speed would be the legal limit if signed like that.


----------



## Verso

Of course those lanes are always empty since you just drive through (Telepass) or stop briefly (cards). What's more important is how many people actually use them (you can observe that while waiting in the cash queue) and how much time you actually have to wait in cash queues (not long usually). The first time I used my Maestro card at Trieste-Lisert toll station, it didn't accept it, so I was blocking the only card lane for some time until they just opened it and I paid later. Then I realized I had probably just inserted the card the wrong way.


----------



## Suburbanist

...


----------



## bogdymol

Verso said:


> The first time I used my Maestro card at Trieste-Lisert toll station, it didn't accept it, so I was blocking the only card lane for some time until they just opened it and I paid later. Then I realized I had probably just inserted the card the wrong way.


All of my trips on Italian motorways I actually payed with debit card (Visa Electron), not credit card, and I had no problems at all.


----------



## g.spinoza

Kanadzie said:


> Does it apply that way legally also? Here for sure highest speed would be the legal limit if signed like that.


Yes. In that case 70 was the fixed limit and 30 the temporary one due to roadworks (you can see the yellow lane markings). You must comply with the lower one.


----------



## hofburg

bogdymol said:


> All of my trips on Italian motorways I actually payed with debit card (Visa Electron), not credit card, and I had no problems at all.


yes Visa works, but Maestro don't.


----------



## bogdymol

g.spinoza said:


> Yes. In that case 70 was the fixed limit and 30 the temporary one due to roadworks (you can see the yellow lane markings). You must comply with the lower one.


Common sense says that, if you temporary lower the speed limit on a road section, you must take down or cover the old speed limit sign.



hofburg said:


> yes Visa works, but Maestro don't.


I used Visa Electron (debit-card), not the standard VISA credit-card. With my card I can't do payments over the internet, but I was able to pay the motorway toll.


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> Common sense says that, if you temporary lower the speed limit on a road section, you must take down or cover the old speed limit sign.


It's your common sense not mine. Common sense dictates that you comply with both signs by driving 30.


----------



## bogdymol

Come on... I have tens of thousands km behind the wheel in half of European countries and I've never seen before 2 different speed limits posted at the same time. Every time the speed limit was changed, the old sign was either taken down or covered with something so that it won't induce you in error.

I know that, technically speaking, if you drive with 29 km/h there you comply with both of the signs, but common sense of every driver should say that there should be only 1 speed limit posted at a time.

PS:


Attus said:


> Iit's very clear. The 30 sign is a little bit nearer to you. So you have to drive 30 for approx. 40 centimeters, and then you can accelerate to 70.


This guy, although joking, has a point. You might win in court if you drive with 30 km/h while passing near that sign, and 70 km/h after you passed it. The 30 km/h speed limit sign is in front of the 70 one


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Guys. The higher limit ough to be covered like direction signs whenever you have roadworks. The thing is this is a construction site. See the yellow lanes? Afaik they ought to use a yellow background construction site signal to make things clearer. In the end of the day it works Italian style, i.e....if the road is open you can drive through. If there's working people you must slow down, see the 30 kmh sign! If there's no maintenance crew in sight just do what you feel to do. The 30 km sign on an empty construction site is only meant to reject your claim should you damage your tires in a pothole.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Verso said:


> Of course those lanes are always empty since you just drive through (Telepass) or stop briefly (cards). What's more important is how many people actually use them (you can observe that while waiting in the cash queue) and how much time you actually have to wait in cash queues (not long usually). The first time I used my Maestro card at Trieste-Lisert toll station, it didn't accept it, so I was blocking the only card lane for some time until they just opened it and I paid later. Then I realized I had probably just inserted the card the wrong way.


It's an easy story Viacard is just a prepaid toll token, meant to reduce the time spent at toll boothes ( in the past it could mean bloody ages). And it' very old. You bought it with a face value and it was a paper ticket, originally. It was circulated back in the 70s when credit cards where not so popular and debit cards, or ATM just coming around. It was ok but sometimes annoying. Particularly when there was not enough money left. Then they offered a plastic rechargeable version but credit/debit cards proved to be more handyn imdon't know why they still offered it. Is there any ody travelling with traveller's cheques today?

Anyway I use a Telepass. It' great. Costs a nothimg a month and goes on my credit cards. Youncan use it in some parkings as well and makes life easier. I dream of an pan european system so that it may work also abroad. In the end of the day you have anautomatic vinjeta check system in SLO and HR operates something similar to Telepass, so...


----------



## Verso

hofburg said:


> yes Visa works, but Maestro don't.


Maestro works for sure. Here it says "prepaid cards" and I remember they used to mention Maestro specifically.



g.spinoza said:


> It's your common sense not mine. Common sense dictates that you comply with both signs by driving 30.


If speed limit is 70 km/h, then driving 30 might be too slow. :troll: What's the minimum speed limit?


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> Of course those lanes are always empty since you just drive through (Telepass) or stop briefly (cards). What's more important is how many people actually use them (you can observe that while waiting in the cash queue) and how much time you actually have to wait in cash queues (not long usually). The first time I used my Maestro card at Trieste-Lisert toll station, it didn't accept it, so I was blocking the only card lane for some time until they just opened it and I paid later. Then I realized I had probably just inserted the card the wrong way.


neah. those automatic machines are capricious. i remember them refusing my Diners, and few hours after that accepting it and similar things.

about Viacard - i just had it in my mind to ask about it - i remember it was really popular in 90es (it is kind of smart card if i am right). i didn't know that it still exists. here in HR smart cards exist no more.

trick: while exiting at Lisert and paying with cash, there are 3 hidden booths at the left side which are always empty (because not many people notice them nor obviously know for them). look here


----------



## Verso

^^ I always use them. :dunno:



hofburg said:


> yes Visa works, but Maestro don't.


Here, Maestro.


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> Come on... I have tens of thousands km behind the wheel in half of European countries


So have I, and that image didn't raise any question whatsoever in my mind. Maybe that's because I'm Italian, but I don't know what to add, since there is an explicit rule regarding these situations.


----------



## Kanadzie

Maestro is really odd. In Canada nobody has it, and in US I think also nobody has it. But most stores will hang "Maestro" sign as they accept it, but if you ask someone on street, they have no idea what it is (while everyone knows Visa, Mastercard, etc)


----------



## bogdymol

g.spinoza said:


> there is an explicit rule regarding these situations.


In my country there isn't, simply because there aren't conflicting situation like this one.

Anyway, let's get back to Italian _strade e autostrade_.


----------



## Verso

bogdymol said:


> Anyway, let's get back to Italian _strade e autostrade_.


You said Italian? Okay: H4dir. :troll:


----------



## italystf

bogdymol said:


> In my country there isn't, simply because there aren't conflicting situation like this one.
> 
> Anyway, let's get back to Italian _strade e autostrade_.


In many roadworks in Italy they have the bad habit to put random road signs on the edge of the road just to highlight the presence of roadworks. If there's a 30 speed limit, it doesn't mean that there are speed traps fining you if you drive at 40, it just means "slow down, drive carefully, there are roadworks ahead!" I've seen situation with a "white arrow in blue background" sign (mandatory direction right), placed on the edge of the road and pointing towards the ditch! :lol:


Verso said:


> You said Italian? Okay: H4dir.


If you zoom, it disappears.  This number doesn't exist in reality. It's not the first time I see "Easter eggs" on Google Maps.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Yeah, same thing in Romania. When there are roadworks they just throw there some signs on yellow background, but at least they do something with the old speed limit signs.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> ^^ I always use them. :dunno:


i do, too. but there is never anybody in front of me there, while at other booths there are at least 3 or 4 cars waiting (or even more)



Kanadzie said:


> Maestro is really odd. In Canada nobody has it, and in US I think also nobody has it. But most stores will hang "Maestro" sign as they accept it, but if you ask someone on street, they have no idea what it is (while everyone knows Visa, Mastercard, etc)


it's not odd, it is just not common. when i used Diners, i had problems in Hungary because it was absolutely unknown card there.
what are common debit cards in Canada? Visa electron?


----------



## Suburbanist

Maestro uses the same network of Mastercard, and is used for debit online transactions. It is like Visa Debit/Visa.


----------



## italystf

Easy to read signs. :lol:
https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Fiord...WTxitJ6fug0DbGypD0YZvw&cbp=12,346.24,,1,-2.65

And a guy walking on the ramp towards the motorway. :lol:
https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Fiord...d=oF93McxQjFL5jae8hpA0YA&cbp=12,154.44,,0,8.5


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Easy to read signs. :lol:
> https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Fiord...WTxitJ6fug0DbGypD0YZvw&cbp=12,346.24,,1,-2.65


and intersection itself is fabolous. i wonder if somebody has realized that roundabout would suit just perfectly there.


----------



## italystf

x-type said:


> and intersection itself is fabolous. i wonder if somebody has realized that roundabout would suit just perfectly there.


There are many places where a roundabout would fit perfectly but they didn't build it, like here and here.

About the sign on the Costiera Amalfitana, it says: "transit forbidden for buses with max height of 4.00m and max lenght of 10.36m". It sounds the exact countrary of what was intented to be


----------



## italystf

Campania strikes again :lol:
https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Fiord...KPP6QmKJMR9eXriaQ&cbp=12,246.24,,1,10.14&z=17
https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Fiord...E01VGAM-cHUosBpvlQ&cbp=12,357.75,,0,9.41&z=17


----------



## narkelion

italystf said:


> There are many places where a roundabout would fit perfectly but they didn't build it, like here and here.


I must say that there are many places where a roundabout doesn't fit at all but they built it...

And I think that there are more places in this situation than places in yours...:bash:


----------



## bogdymol

italystf said:


> Campania strikes again :lol:
> https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Fiord...KPP6QmKJMR9eXriaQ&cbp=12,246.24,,1,10.14&z=17


I see a problem there: there is the blue "roundabout sign", which basically says (at least in my country) that, once you get in the "circle" you can drive there and do how many circles you want because you have the right of way (priority). But in that link you posted I also see a STOP sign for those the are aleready inside the "circle". This means it's not a roundabout anymore and that the signs are contradictory.

From this angle you can see both signs better.

PS: now g.spinoza will think that I have something agains Italian road signs


----------



## Verso

bogdymol said:


> I see a problem there: there is the blue "roundabout sign", which basically says (at least in my country) that, once you get in the "circle" you can drive there and do how many circles you want because you have the right of way (priority). But in that link you posted I also see a STOP sign for those the are aleready inside the "circle". This means it's not a roundabout anymore and that the signs are contradictory.
> 
> From this angle you can see both signs better.


Captain Obvious to the rescue. :lol:


----------



## bogdymol

I thought italystf posted that roundabout because of the discussion above (discussion above places where roundabouts should be placed and are not place, and vice-versa). This roundabout from his example, besides not "fitting-in" in that place, also has contradictory signs.


----------



## narkelion

20% off on highways if you drive on them at least 20 times/month. 

Discounts for commuters.

http://www.muoversiaroma.it/muoversiaroma/articolo.aspx?id=6431 (article in Italian)


----------



## g.spinoza

BreBeMi (A35) is going to open on 1st July without any gas stations: tenders for the construction and management of gas stations near Caravaggio received no offers.

Works on the motorway, which at 31st December was 90% complete, are going to be finished by 25th April, when testing begins. It is going to open on 1st July.

http://bergamo.corriere.it/bergamo/...ri-a1a1dfe6-88d8-11e3-9f25-fc2a5b09a302.shtml


----------



## g.spinoza

Progress in A58 works, official data (december 2013):

- Lot A (Agrate Brianza - Bellinzago): 39.2%
- Lot B (Bellinzago - Pozzuolo Martesana): 14.9%
- Arco TEEM (connection with A35, Cassanese and Rivoltana): 71.7%
- Lot C (Zelo Buon Persico - Cerro al Lambro): 23.4%

http://www.tangenziale.esterna.it/a-che-punto-siamo/


----------



## hofburg

narkelion said:


> 20% off on highways if you drive on them at least 20 times/month.
> 
> Discounts for commuters.
> 
> http://www.muoversiaroma.it/muoversiaroma/articolo.aspx?id=6431 (article in Italian)


an idea in right direction, but useful only for hardcore commuters (and not me)  has telepass some advantages (other than passing by) ?


----------



## m_rocco

5km queue in A23 (Udine nord exit) in Austria direction due to heavy snow between Carnia and border crossing. Traffic allowed only for < 7,5 tons vehicles


----------



## hofburg

Fernetti border also closed today for sup. 7,5


----------



## Eddard Stark

I think the main point if it will be to divide a14 to a13 traffic from the current passante


----------



## italystf

Eddard Stark said:


> I think the main point if it will be to divide a14 to a13 traffic from the current passante


They should build the long-awaited "Romea Commerciale" (Mestre - Ravenna coastal motorway) and a14 to a13 (and viceversa) traffic will drop to almost zero.


----------



## narkelion

From what I read, they should start soon building it...


----------



## italystf

It would be already a good result to have the Romea Commerciale and the upgraded E45 till Orte in 20 years.


----------



## brick84

*Etna from A19 Palermo-Catania*










by Atradoll on Flickr


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*

_Sicily in background_










by piervincenzocanale on Flickr


----------



## italystf

Stunning pics. Congratulation if you took them yourself!


----------



## bogdymol

I want to share with you some pictures I shot on Autostrada A4 between Verona and Gorizia. My actual route was Verona Tangenziale Sud - Autostrda A4 - Vicenza - Padova - Autostrada A57 near Mestre - Autostrada A4 again - Autostrada A34 - Gorizia.

On Tangenziale Sud Verona:





































Now on A4 between Verona and Vicenza:










I stopped at this Autogrill...










... just to take some pictures of the motorway from above (through the dirty window hno:


----------



## bogdymol

Driving on A4 to Vicenza:










Vicenza Tangenziale Sud goes parallel to Autostrada A4, so we have 4 parallel tunnels:










Inside one of the tunnels:










Nice view from the tunnel:



















This picture would have looked a lot better if it would have been shot from a truck, high above the road, so you could see the number of lanes that the Autostrada and parallel Tangenziale have:










A4 and on the right Padova Tangenziale Nord:










I exited here to eat something at IKEA, but unfortunately it was closed:


----------



## bogdymol

A4 / A13 interchange near Padova:










Lonely tree between the 2 carriageways:










I've never seen in Italy a sign with arrows like this one:










I got of A4 and drove on A57 near Mestre (Venice):



















Large toll plaza near Venice:










On A57 near Mestre (Venice):









^^ We discussed some time ago about "middle lane hogging" on Italian motorways. On A57 I also drove on the middle lane because the speed limit on the right lane was lower than the middle or left lanes.


----------



## bogdymol

Back on A4 between Venice and Trieste, there were some roadworks for a long distance...



















Here's the A4 / A23 motorway interchange:










Interesting way to do it. Instead of a new exit lane on the right, this one is on the left:










Just after A4 / A34 interchange, motorway to Gorizia:










A34 was still not entirely completed, so it had just 1 lane per direction + ridiculously low speed limit:










A nice looking bridge before the Slovenian border:










That's all


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice photos Bogdymol 

How far along is the A4 widening east of Venezia today?


----------



## Suburbanist

bogdymol said:


> On A57 near Mestre (Venice):


This photo bring up bad memories of long traffic jams I endured there, when this was still A4 and the Mestre bypass was u/c. The worst of all was in 2008, during a summer trip to Austria under a heat wave in August. Not fun


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nice photos Bogdymol
> 
> How far along is the A4 widening east of Venezia today?


They're working only between Quarto d'Altino (junction with A57) and San Donà di Piave. Speed limit here is 80 for cars and 70 for trucks. There are many speed traps.



bogdymol said:


> I've never seen in Italy a sign with arrows like this one:


It's confusing since you have to go straight for Trieste (A4) or Belluno (A27), not turn left.



bogdymol said:


> Here's the A4 / A23 motorway interchange:
> 
> Interesting way to do it. Instead of a new exit lane on the right, this one is on the left:


It's not an exit on the left, it's a "directional T interchange" between A4 and A23.


----------



## brick84

italystf said:


> Stunning pics. Congratulation if you took them yourself!


Unfortunately the pics aren't mine.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

bogdymol said:


> I got of A4 and drove on A57 near Mestre (Venice):


A coincidence, today it is exactly 5 years ago the Mestre bypass opened to traffic. :cheers: 

It opened 8 February 2009.


----------



## CNGL

I remember it when I was there in 2010. But since the Roncade exit wasn't built back then we got on A57 and then towards Venice airport in order to reach the hotel in Jesolo.


----------



## hofburg

some signs on A57 still say A4  widening works are up to Cessalto now.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^This widening is for 3+3 ?


----------



## g.spinoza

Luki_SL said:


> ^^This widening is for 3+3 ?


Yes.


----------



## narkelion

Oh, I thought that they were already started with the widening of the stretch.

Thanks for the information!


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> Oh, I thought that they were already started with the widening of the stretch.


Maybe there has been a misunderstanding.

Ancona Nord-Ancona Sud widening is already under construction. Ancona Ovest exit works (which requires an entirely new 6-km-long, 2+2 road, from Ancona harbour to A14) aren't yet.


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*

work in progress in January 2014


----------



## g.spinoza

Contract tender for another lot of A3 renovation has been published. This section is located between Altilia junction (included) and Stupino viaduct (not included) and is 6 km long. Part of it will be on a new alignment, part will reuse the current one. Southbound carriageway will feature 1.7 km of tunnels and 1.7 km of viaducts, while northbound one will have 3 km of viaducts. Major piece of engineering is viaduct Ruiz, an arch bridge with 251.61 m span.

The contract is worth 340 M€. Deadline for offer is april 9th, then the project will have to be ready in 180 days, works will have to be completed in 1076 days.

(in the above map, this section is marked "Macrolotto n°4, parte 2^, 2° stralcio", between km 280 and 286).


----------



## keber

56 M € per km? Not bad ...


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> 56 M € per km? Not bad ...


I'm not quite sure if 340 M€ refers only to the "2° stralcio" (second sublot) or the whole lot. The whole lot is 15.3 km long.


----------



## g.spinoza

I asked in the Italian forum, the money refers to the 6 km section. This one:
http://goo.gl/maps/2xicW

It's expensive, but that section is one of the most difficult of the entire route.


----------



## cinxxx

What route would you recommend for:
1. Ravenna to Orvieto
2. Perugia to Urbino 
3. Urbino to San Marino

Google Maps recommends:
1. http://goo.gl/maps/Dza7N
2. http://goo.gl/maps/1GL5S or http://goo.gl/maps/NHWNT (SS3bis seems to be motorway-like, SS219 although not)
3. http://goo.gl/maps/VFsFF 

Thanks :cheers2:


----------



## Suburbanist

The route via Umbertide is better. If you have time, make a stop in Gubbio, it is a neat town well worth a short stop and strolling around on foot. 

As for Urbino => San Marino, it all depends on your mood. If you want to travel through the soft hills of Marche, you can cut your way through those local roads. If you want an easier drive, head back to A14.

I like Urbino a lot, it is an interesting old town. Climb to the old fortress, where you can get some good views of the walled perimeter.


----------



## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> What route would you recommend for:
> 1. Ravenna to Orvieto
> 2. Perugia to Urbino
> 3. Urbino to San Marino
> 
> Google Maps recommends:
> 1. http://goo.gl/maps/Dza7N


I'd say this one better:
http://goo.gl/maps/NBkql

Same length, all in dual carriageway, zero toll. Beware of speed traps, though.



> 2. http://goo.gl/maps/1GL5S or http://goo.gl/maps/NHWNT (SS3bis seems to be motorway-like, SS219 although not)


If you take my SS3bis route to Orvieto the day before I'd say you can go SS219, just to spice things up.




> 3. http://goo.gl/maps/VFsFF


I think it's ok. A14 is too long a detour.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Thanks for the help. 

I think I have finally nuts decided my route for Easter.
Do you know a nice (small) place between Firenze and Bolgna for a short stop between Orvieto and Sirmione?
I was thinking maybe Prato, but that's right near Firenze, so not half of the way.

*Day 1* - http://goo.gl/maps/iN621
Ingolstadt - Ferrara

*Day 2* - http://goo.gl/maps/koaqg
Ferrara - San Marino

*Day 3* - http://goo.gl/maps/cy9zA
San Marino - Urbino - Assisi - Perugia

*Day 4* - http://goo.gl/maps/CQYiN
Perugia - Civita di Bagnoregio - Orvieto (- stop somewhere on the way) - Accommodation somewhere near Sirmione

*Day 5* - http://goo.gl/maps/JM3eH
Sirmione - East road of Lake Garda: Malcesine - Riva del Garda - Nago-Torbole (- stop somewhere on the way) - Ingolstadt

Entire roadmap: http://goo.gl/maps/NusxH


----------



## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> ^^Thanks for the help.
> 
> I think I have finally nuts decided my route for Easter.
> Do you know a nice (small) place between Firenze and Bolgna for a short stop between Orvieto and Sirmione?
> I was thinking maybe Prato, but that's right near Firenze, so not half of the way.


And Prato is not small, it's the third city by population of central Italy, after Rome and Florence.

Porretta Terme is nice, but not easely reachable from A1.
Maybe Barberino di Mugello, it has one Unesco World Heritage site. But I've never been there myself.



> *Day 1* - http://goo.gl/maps/iN621
> Ingolstadt - Ferrara
> 
> *Day 2* - http://goo.gl/maps/koaqg
> Ferrara - San Marino
> 
> *Day 3* - http://goo.gl/maps/cy9zA
> San Marino - Urbino - Assisi - Perugia
> 
> *Day 4* - http://goo.gl/maps/CQYiN
> Perugia - Civita di Bagnoregio - Orvieto (- stop somewhere on the way) - Accommodation somewhere near Sirmione
> 
> *Day 5* - http://goo.gl/maps/JM3eH
> Sirmione - East road of Lake Garda: Malcesine - Riva del Garda - Nago-Torbole (- stop somewhere on the way) - Ingolstadt
> 
> Entire roadmap: http://goo.gl/maps/NusxH


Approved!

EDIT: Just a little question: are you sure you want to drive east coast of Garda? West coast is much nicer, imho.


----------



## g.spinoza

Uh uh, another thing. From Urbino to Assisi I noticed your route uses the Furlo tunnel bypass on SP3 here. I really suggest you don't use the tunnel but drive the old road instead. You'll pass through one of the oldest - probably THE oldest - road tunnel in the world still in service, built by Romans in 76 AD :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furlo_Pass


----------



## cinxxx

g.spinoza said:


> And Prato is not small, it's the third city by population of central Italy, after Rome and Florence.
> 
> Porretta Terme is nice, but not easely reachable from A1.
> Maybe Barberino di Mugello, it has one Unesco World Heritage site. But I've never been there myself.


Castello Mediceo di Cafaggiolo and Castello del Trebbio seemto be the attractions there:
http://www.comunebarberino.it/flex/cm/pages/ServeBLOB.php/L/IT/IDPagina/3668



g.spinoza said:


> Approved!


Great!











g.spinoza said:


> EDIT: Just a little question: are you sure you want to drive east coast of Garda? West coast is much nicer, imho.


I took a look in Streetview and it seemed to me that much of the road has trees and you can't really see much towards the lake and the road seemed narrower. Maybe I'm wrong about that . Also one of the recommended stops was Malcesine, which is on the east coast. There is also a cable car that get's you up Monte Baldo.

But if you say west coast is better, I believe you, I've never been there 

What nice place(s) are there on the west coast? Campione del Garda, Limone sul Garda seem nice.
Maybe an option to get to Malcesine is to park somewhere west and go by ferry east, then back, don't know about them though...



g.spinoza said:


> Uh uh, another thing. From Urbino to Assisi I noticed your route uses the Furlo tunnel bypass on SP3 here. I really suggest you don't use the tunnel but drive the old road instead. You'll pass through one of the oldest - probably THE oldest - road tunnel in the world still in service, built by Romans in 76 AD :
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furlo_Pass


Wow, thanks for that too. Narrow road, is there a safe place were to stop and take some photos?


----------



## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> I took a look in Streetview and it seemed to me that much of the road has trees and you can't really see much towards the lake and the road seemed narrower. Maybe I'm wrong about that . Also one of the recommended stops was Malcesine, which is on the east coast. There is also a cable car that get's you up Monte Baldo.


Trees are only in the first section, up until Salò and Toscolano-Maderno. After that, the road goes very close to the shore, sometimes in tunnels but often in open air.



> But if you say west coast is better, I believe you, I've never been there
> What nice place(s) are there on the west coast? Campione del Garda, Limone sul Garda seem nice.


Limone del Garda is a must see. Tremosine is also nice, more for the views of the lake than for the town itself.
Avoid Campione, it's an open air Baustelle. They're transforming the place in a tourist resort, but right now it's just a ghost town.

Malcesine and Monte Baldo cable car are very close to Torbole, so even going the west shore it's not a long detour.


> Maybe an option to get to Malcesine is to park somewhere west and go by ferry east, then back, don't know about them though...


Mmm not sure. I know in Limone there are tourist ferries, but I'm not sure they go to Malcesine.
EDIT: Actually they do: http://www.navigazionelaghi.it/ita/g_tariffe_1.asp



> Wow, thanks for that too. Narrow road, is there a safe place were to stop and take some photos?


Not in the road itself. Best option is park before (there's a small parking right where the old road overpasses the new one) and go on foot. Then you can get back in the car and go through the tunnel. 
The tunnel itself is so narrow that is controlled by traffic lights, only one direction at a time. Maybe you can take picture while waiting for the green light.


----------



## cinxxx

g.spinoza said:


> Limone del Garda is a must see. Tremosine is also nice, more for the views of the lake than for the town itself.
> Avoid Campione, it's an open air Baustelle. They're transforming the place in a tourist resort, but right now it's just a ghost town.
> 
> Malcesine and Monte Baldo cable car are very close to Torbole, so even going the west shore it's not a long detour.
> 
> Maybe an option to get to Malcesine is to park somewhere west and go by ferry east, then back, don't know about them though...
> 
> Mmm not sure. I know in Limone there are tourist ferries, but I'm not sure they go to Malcesine.
> EDIT: Actually they do: http://www.navigazionelaghi.it/ita/g_tariffe_1.asp


Ok, Limone, thanks for that 

I think the ferry could be an option, it should take 20 minutes to Malcesine, by car from Torbele kind of the same thing, but no driving, just enjoying the landscapes, I will see.

I also read about the spectacular views from Tremosine, but I have troubles to find the exact panorama spots. For example, this pictures is very nice, I've also seen some from higher.









source

The road from just before the tunnel seems pretty narrow and steep.



g.spinoza said:


> Not in the road itself. Best option is park before (there's a small parking right where the old road overpasses the new one) and go on foot. Then you can get back in the car and go through the tunnel.
> The tunnel itself is so narrow that is controlled by traffic lights, only one direction at a time. Maybe you can take picture while waiting for the green light.


I guess you mean this place: http://goo.gl/maps/e7QCV
Nice view from the overpass 

Near the tunnel I found these possible stops:
http://goo.gl/maps/2HpCY or http://goo.gl/maps/Pc8a4


----------



## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> Ok, Limone, thanks for that
> 
> I think the ferry could be an option, it should take 20 minutes to Malcesine, by car from Torbele kind of the same thing, but no driving, just enjoying the landscapes, I will see.
> 
> I also read about the spectacular views from Tremosine, but I have troubles to find the exact panorama spots. For example, this pictures is very nice, I've also seen some from higher.


I took these pics in Tremosine while doing a trekking-eating event last summer:
https://plus.google.com/photos/100013852566932707611/albums/5886663090819341809?banner=pwa

I remember some view similar to the pic you posted but can't remember exactly where...




> The road from just before the tunnel seems pretty narrow and steep.


It is indeed, but it's absolutely amazing. The road is one-lane but two-way, passing places are quite frequent though.




> I guess you mean this place: http://goo.gl/maps/e7QCV
> Nice view from the overpass


Mmm no, I meant this place:
http://goo.gl/maps/bZBT3



> Near the tunnel I found these possible stops:
> http://goo.gl/maps/2HpCY or http://goo.gl/maps/Pc8a4


Them too, but those are already past the tunnel if you come from the east.


----------



## cinxxx

g.spinoza said:


> Them too, but those are already past the tunnel if you come from the east.


I know, I was thinking to walk through the tunnel back.
Or is it forbidden or dangerous?


----------



## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> I know, I was thinking to walk through the tunnel back.
> Or is it forbidden or dangerous?


Not only it's not forbidden, but there's a nice walkpath on the side of the road and there are sidewalks inside the tunnel itself.

Another set of pictures I took, showing the road, the sidewalk and the tunnel:
https://plus.google.com/photos/1000...15153720753?banner=pwa&authkey=CP-M342mhNPHWg


----------



## brick84

*SS 106 'Jonica' in Calabria*

Anas opened today new junction of Siderno (Reggio Calabria)

http://www.strettoweb.com/2014/02/anas-aperto-il-nuovo-svincolo-siderno-sulla-ss-106-jonica/119570/


----------



## Fab87

cinxxx said:


> Castello Mediceo di Cafaggiolo and Castello del Trebbio seemto be the attractions there:
> http://www.comunebarberino.it/flex/cm/pages/ServeBLOB.php/L/IT/IDPagina/3668
> 
> 
> 
> Great!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I took a look in Streetview and it seemed to me that much of the road has trees and you can't really see much towards the lake and the road seemed narrower. Maybe I'm wrong about that . Also one of the recommended stops was Malcesine, which is on the east coast. There is also a cable car that get's you up Monte Baldo.
> 
> But if you say west coast is better, I believe you, I've never been there


The advantage of driving on the east coast is that you always can see the lake on your side. You can drive from Peschiera to Torbole while always having the lake at sight, which doesn't apply to the west coast. Also, in the upper part of the west coast there are a lot of tunnels. On the east coast there are smaller villages than the ones on the west one (Salò, Gardone, Toscolano-Maderno are small towns, not villages), depends pretty much on your taste.

In the end, Spinoza is from Brescia and I'm from Verona, so we'll never agree on which side it's best.  But you can take a ferry from Sirmione to Limone, for instance, right in the middle :lol: 

One thing is sure: mount Baldo is a must-see. 


Dairy cows don't understand these weird sky people di B℮n, su Flickr


A perfect way to enjoy marvelous views of Lake Garda di B℮n, su Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

^^Thanks for your comments 

I still have time to decide. Hopefully the weather will play with us.
Fact is, whatever side I choose, I will take the other one next time I'm in the area


----------



## bogdymol

Here are some nice pictures I shot on my short trip between *Monfalcone* and *Miramare Castle* (map).

Near Monfalcone Est motorway interchange:










Entering Autostrada A4 at Monfalcone Est:










Autostrada A4:










Taking the first exit to SS14:


----------



## bogdymol

On SS14 coastal road:










A nice rock tunnel ahead:










And another tunnel...










Tunnel after tunnel...










At Miramare Castle I parked my car between 2 other cars, in a very tight space:










Miramare Castle:










For more pictures with Miramare castle you can check my travel thread.


----------



## Fab87

^^ Tight space? Normal parking space!


----------



## narkelion

^^ Quote that! :lol:

For me, living in the center of Rome, that space is the biggest I can ever find. :lol::lol:


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Unlike _Paris-style-parking_, I like to park my car without touching other cars.


----------



## Fab87

Did you have to touch the other cars with that shitload of available space? :troll:


----------



## bogdymol

^^ That's the ideea. Haven't touched anything :angel:


----------



## keber

bogdymol said:


> ^^ Unlike _Paris-style-parking_, I like to park my car without touching other cars.


Then you should not park in Trieste


----------



## g.spinoza

Fab87 said:


> The advantage of driving on the east coast is that you always can see the lake on your side. You can drive from Peschiera to Torbole while always having the lake at sight, which doesn't apply to the west coast. Also, in the upper part of the west coast there are a lot of tunnels. On the east coast there are smaller villages than the ones on the west one (Salò, Gardone, Toscolano-Maderno are small towns, not villages), depends pretty much on your taste.


All of that is true. West side is harsher, east side is gentler, both are great. It depends on taste indeed.



> In the end, Spinoza is from Brescia and I'm from Verona, so we'll never agree on which side it's best.  But you can take a ferry from Sirmione to Limone, for instance, right in the middle :lol:


Eheh, I only lived a couple of years in Brescia, so I'm not that biased 



> One thing is sure: mount Baldo is a must-see.


Agree on that... but I think you can see it better from west coast, in its entirety.


----------



## Eddard Stark

The best side of lake Garda is lake como, 3 times better


----------



## brick84

*A18 Catania-Messina*










by etnaboris on Flickr










by alesduchac on Flickr


----------



## italystf

keber said:


> Then you should not park in Trieste


There are some places where you can park easily and safely, all subjected to payment, of course: the silos near the railway station, the "Molo 4" near Tripovich theatre, near the court, the Giulia shopping centre and along the Rive.


----------



## g.spinoza

Eddard Stark said:


> The best side of lake Garda is lake como, 3 times better


Nah, you can smell Milan from there


----------



## Kanadzie

bogdymol said:


> ^^ Unlike _Paris-style-parking_, I like to park my car without touching other cars.


Haha, I call it "parking by Braille" :lol:


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Eddard Stark said:


> The best side of lake Garda is lake como, 3 times better



Can't bear all the filmsy villas from the 60's


----------



## cinxxx

I have reserved accommodation in Sirmione, 3 km from the historic center.
I came up with these 2 plans:

1. West: http://goo.gl/maps/CNYx4
2. East: http://goo.gl/maps/rTIww -I could take the ferry from Malcesine to Limone and drive from there acording to the route.

Option 1 seems nicer, my only concern is it would get late when I reach Malcesine and I could miss the cable car and the great views from up there. Also I still have to drive to Ingolstadt, so maybe I should ditch some of the stops...

EDIT: One more thing, which way is better coming from Gubbio to Assisi?
Google Maps gives 2: http://goo.gl/maps/HexeZ or http://goo.gl/maps/tg88b
My GPS gives me the second although it seems longer and slower?


----------



## bogdymol

cinxxx said:


> I have reserved accommodation in Sirmione


Are you sure about that? :naughty: :naughty:


----------



## cinxxx

^^Actually it really is in the city, but around 3-4 km from the entry to the historic center


----------



## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> I have reserved accommodation in Sirmione, 3 km from the historic center.
> I came up with these 2 plans:
> 
> 1. West: http://goo.gl/maps/CNYx4
> 2. East: http://goo.gl/maps/rTIww -I could take the ferry from Malcesine to Limone and drive from there acording to the route.
> 
> Option 1 seems nicer, my only concern is it would get late when I reach Malcesine and I could miss the cable car and the great views from up there. Also I still have to drive to Ingolstadt, so maybe I should ditch some of the stops...


If Malcesine and Monte Baldo cable car are a priority, then go east...



> EDIT: One more thing, which way is better coming from Gubbio to Assisi?
> Google Maps gives 2: http://goo.gl/maps/HexeZ or http://goo.gl/maps/tg88b
> My GPS gives me the second although it seems longer and slower?


Second one is longer but on better roads. I'd go with the first one, since the second one brings you unnecessarily near Perugia (traffic jams and so on)


----------



## bogdymol

cinxxx said:


> ^^Actually it really is in the city, but around 3-4 km from the entry to the historic center


You know what I meant :naughty:


----------



## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> Uh uh, another thing. From Urbino to Assisi I noticed your route uses the Furlo tunnel bypass on SP3 here. I really suggest you don't use the tunnel but drive the old road instead. You'll pass through one of the oldest - probably THE oldest - road tunnel in the world still in service, built by Romans in 76 AD :
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furlo_Pass


Unfortunately I didn't realize that old Furlo road is closed since last December due to a landslide:










I already MP'ed cinxxx so that he doesn't miss the thread.


----------



## Fab87

What a shame. This winter really fucked up a lot of roads in Italy.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Fab87 said:


> ^^ Tight space? Normal parking space!


Wide I should say


----------



## g.spinoza

Quote from the Italian thread



Kikko90 said:


> *East Rome, today the first A24 collector opens*
> *New ramp will allow to exit from A24 and enter GRA towards Tiburtina*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The wait is over at last. Starting today, "ramp A" of A24-GRA connection will open for traffic. This new ramp, overpassing GRA with a viaduct, will let vehicles coming from the city centre/East Tangenziale to hasten the exit from A24 and enter GRA direction Tiburtina/Firenze, without interfering with normal flux of vehicles going to East Rome toll barrier.


----------



## g.spinoza

Status update for A1 "Variante di Valico", November 2013 (compared to previous update, September 2013):



> La Quercia-Badia Nuova 5A 100% 100% ok
> La Quercia-Badia Nuova 5B 75.6% 66.1% -9.5%
> La Quercia-Badia Nuova 6-7 74.6% 78.2% +3.6%
> Badia Nuova-Aglio Galleria di Base 9-10-11 94.6% 94.9% +0.3%
> Badia Nuova-Aglio (12 e svincolo Barberino) 100% 100% ok
> Aglio-Barberino 13 96.6% 96.7% +0.1%


----------



## narkelion

g.spinoza said:


> Status update for A1 "Variante di Valico", December 2013 (compared to previous update, August 2013):


In Part 5B they went 9.5 % behind! :shocked: how can this be possible?


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> In Part 5B they went 9.5 % behind! :shocked: how can this be possible?


I don't know. They're never gonna finish this... :bash:

EDIT: Lot 5b covers part of the infamous Val di Sambro tunnel, the one that triggered Ripoli landslide...


----------



## bogdymol

A bridge collapsed maybe? :jk:


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio C. near Rogliano (Cosenza)*










by Rob Van Kan on Flickr


----------



## sponge_bob

narkelion said:


> In Part 5B they went 9.5 % behind! :shocked: how can this be possible?


Maybe they were ordered to do extra work to prevent a further landslide along that stretch and the completion % metric now includes that extra work as well as the original work. 

The Variante is being constructed along a geotechnically demanding stretch which has everything from earthquakes to gas problems underground to major changes in soil and rock as you cross the mountains. And they must keep the original motorway moving.


----------



## g.spinoza

sponge_bob said:


> The Variante is being constructed along a geotechnically demanding stretch which has everything from earthquakes to gas problems underground to major changes in soil and rock as you cross the mountains. And they must keep the original motorway moving.


This is a new alignment, so keeping the original motorway moving is not a problem.

I just want to point out the fact that the original planned opening for VaV was 2003 :nuts:


----------



## -Pino-

^^ For the last five years or so, it has been due to open "in two years". :cheers:


----------



## bogdymol

What will happen with the old motorway route when the new one will be completed?


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> What will happen with the old motorway route when the new one will be completed?


Nothing significant, it will still be in service - although I want to see whoever is going to choose that route when VaV is available.

The last section Barberino-Aglio of the old motorway will be converted in northbound carriageway of the new motorway (4 lanes + emergency). The southbound carriageway (3 lanes + emergency) is entirely new.


----------



## Luki_SL

g.spinoza said:


> Nothing significant, it will still be in service - although I want to see whoever is going to choose that route when VaV is available.
> 
> The last section Barberino-Aglio of the old motorway will be converted in northbound carriageway of the new motorway (4 lanes + emergency). The southbound carriageway (3 lanes + emergency) is entirely new.


Is there any plans to give a new road number for this former part of motrway A1? I mean, it`ll SS, or SR*** road?


----------



## bogdymol

And will the old section continue to be tolled?


----------



## g.spinoza

Luki_SL said:


> Is there any plans to give a new road number for this former part of motrway A1? I mean, it`ll SS, or SR*** road?


Former part of A1? No parts of current A1 are going to be downgraded. Only a small part of A1 near Sasso Marconi has already been downgraded when first part of Variante di Valico opened for traffic some years ago.

My guess is that current A1 will retain its designation while Variante will be called A1var or something similar.

And yes, both will be tolled.


----------



## g.spinoza

While I was writing those statistics, new ones came out from Autostrade per l'Italia:
http://www.autostrade.it/documents/10279/41501/newsletter-38.pdf

This time they are updated at January 15th:



> La Quercia-Badia Nuova 5A 100% 100% ok
> La Quercia-Badia Nuova 5B 66.1% 69.1% +3%
> La Quercia-Badia Nuova 6-7 78.2% 79.7% +1.5%
> Badia Nuova-Aglio Galleria di Base 9-10-11 94.9% 95.0% +0.1%
> Badia Nuova-Aglio (12 e svincolo Barberino) 100% 100% ok
> Aglio-Barberino 13 96.7% 97.4% +0.7%


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> My guess is that current A1 will retain its designation while Variante will be called A1var or something similar.


I hope they will do the contrary, A1 the new road and someting else the old road.
Like the A4 in Mestre that became A57 after the opening of the Passante di Mestre and the "Fiano Romano - San Cesareo link" that became A1 with the old stretches renamed A1dir Roma nord and A1dir Roma sud.


----------



## g.spinoza

I had the feeling that Autostrade per l'Italia wants A1 and Variante to be more or less equal, in terms of importance, while the in other examples you mentioned new and old road play very different roles. Just a feeling, though.


----------



## italystf

I've heard that the new one will be forbidden to trucks carring dangerous things because it contains an 8km tunnel.
The toll will be the same because when you exit somewhere they couldn't know what route did you take but only when you entered. For normal traffic the new one will be much better, it climbs only to 400m instead of 700. This in an advantage especially in winter.


----------



## Coccodrillo

italystf said:


> I've heard that the new one will be forbidden to trucks carring dangerous things because it contains an 8km tunnel.


What will they do if and when the planned 9 km tunnel will open for the (new) southbound carriageway? (just north of Florence, using the existing motorway as four northbound lanes)


----------



## g.spinoza

If the condition for hazmat transit was the absence of (long) tunnels, they would not be allowed practically anywhere in Italy.
I think they will be allowed inside Valico tunnel.


----------



## Suburbanist

Just to refresh information on how traffic will work there once works are completed









From IlFilo
.

As for the sectors that were de-commissioned, they are located near Sasso Marconi, where a new alignment was built. IT is possible to see the old highway on Google satellite maps https://goo.gl/maps/LRkHf


----------



## Luki_SL

g.spinoza said:


> Former part of A1? No parts of current A1 are going to be downgraded.


I thought about parallel section with Variante


----------



## g.spinoza

Luki_SL said:


> I thought about parallel section with Variante


Both will mantain their motorway status, so no other designation (SS, SR) is required.


----------



## brick84

*Messina*

_Overview of junctions of 'Giostra-Annunziata'_




piritello said:


>


----------



## keber

What about section just north of Firenze? According to 2013 Google Earth imagery no work is being done to widen A1.


----------



## italystf

3rd lane Barberino - Incisa is U\C and will be complete by 2016-2017.
http://toscana.portale-infrastrutture.it/intervento_scheda.asp?id=24


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Only 1 lot of 3.4 km is currently u/c. The rest is still on the drawing table.


----------



## g.spinoza

Works for the new junction Crespellano on the A1 near Bologna have begun. I think funds were ready in 2010 so I'm not sure what the delay was about.
It is part of a larger construction site, with works for superstrada SP569 "Nuova Bazzanese" nearby and a couple new roundabout on SP27 "Valle del Samoggia" to connect it with the A1 and the junction.


----------



## brick84

_A18 Siracusa-Gela_
*Lots 'Rosolini - Modica', a company of Roma wins the contract*

http://www.autostradesiciliane.it/index.php?azione=primo_piano&id=210


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ "A company of Roma" means "a company made up of gypsy", which is not the case.

What he meant was "a Rome-based company"...


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ _A company from Roma _ would suffice as well.


----------



## italystf

Rom*e *is always used in English-language texts.


----------



## Sunfuns

Roman company would sound even better


----------



## Kanadzie

But if road was built by Romans it would last 1000 years, so probably only by "people from Rome"


----------



## brick84

*Sicily*

_Road to eruption
_









by Boris Behncke on Flickr



_'Stairway to.... Etna'_










by adi manassero on Flickr










by  Giuseppe Mondì on Flickr


----------



## italystf

Viadotto Somplago over Cavazzo lake, A23


----------



## italystf

A23 section Udine - Gemona


----------



## italystf

A23 section Carnia - Pontebba





































View from the cicleway "Alpe Adria"






















































former railway


















Railway tunnel under Pontebba junction


----------



## hofburg

how was that tunnel even built below the pillars of viaduct?


----------



## italystf

hofburg said:


> how was that tunnel even built below the pillars of viaduct?


The new Carnia - Tarvisio railway, mostly underground, was opened in 2000, so after the motorway.


----------



## italystf

A23 section Carnia - Austrian border


----------



## italystf

SS202 "Triestina"

RA13-SS202 junction in Cattinara


















During a winter foggy day


















Servola by night









Confluenza means 'merge'



























Elevated highway through the suburb of Cattinara


----------



## italystf

A4 near Duino, seen from the railway









RA13 near Sistiana below the old railway bridge


----------



## italystf

A27 near Vittorio Veneto


----------



## italystf

A27, Restrello viaduct near Restrello lake


----------



## italystf

A27, Fadalto viaduct near Morto lake


----------



## italystf

A4 near Vicenza


----------



## hofburg

looks like italystf is having a "let me show off FVG and Veneto cool motorways" day 



italystf said:


> The new Carnia - Tarvisio railway, mostly underground, was opened in 2000, so after the motorway.


exactly my point.


----------



## hofburg

I will help you 

A23


Salzburg - Berlin 009 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC09915 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

A34


DSC02699 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02685 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

hofburg said:


> looks like italystf is having a "let me show off FVG and Veneto cool motorways" day


Before they secede from Italy. :troll:


----------



## hofburg

SS202


DSC02573a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC02546a by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

Verso said:


> Before they secede from Italy. :troll:


----------



## m_rocco

Our Friuli rocks  italystf, a question: the cycleway is entirely built in old Pontebbana railway? Completely from Carnia to Tarvisio? Sorry everybody for OT


----------



## italystf

m_rocco said:


> Our Friuli rocks  italystf, a question: the cycleway is entirely built in old Pontebbana railway? Completely from Carnia to Tarvisio? Sorry everybody for OT


Yes, it should be completed now, although I never did it. It's part of the Salzburg - Grado cycleway. The section through Valcanale follows the former railway.
http://www.alpe-adria-radweg.com/it/tourguide/


----------



## italystf

I found this article from 1968: Siracusa - Gela motorway will be ready by 1973 
Now it's 2014 and...


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> *A18 *works in Sicily (*19-km-long stretch Rosolini-Modica*) are going to begin next *March 24th*. Deadline for completion is *February 10th 2018*, while a first substretch can be opened on December 31st 2015. Cost of the stretch is 360 M€.





g.spinoza said:


> Rosolini-Modica are lots 6-7-8.


Have the A18 works been started on schedule? Which lot (6, 7 or 8) is planned to be opened in December 2015? Any detailed information like section boundries or section lengths?


----------



## piotr71

Really nice images, italystf. I appreciate your efforts to find and post them, however credits and source should be given, as not all, if any, are captured by yourself.


----------



## CNGL

italystf said:


> I found this article from 1968: Siracusa - Gela motorway will be ready by 1973
> Now it's 2014 and...


That may explain why E45 touches its Southernmost point in Ispica and then goes sightly North until its "Southern" terminus in Gela.


----------



## Suburbanist

CNGL said:


> That may explain why E45 touches its Southernmost point in Ispica and then goes sightly North until its "Southern" terminus in Gela.


It has more to do with serving the major cities out there (Modica, Ragusa, Vittoria, Comiso). Any major road out there would follow this alignment.

Trivia: many of the cities in the area have been reconstructed with fashionable street rectangular grids after a series of violent earthquakes destroyed much of them in 17th Century. In Ragusa they moved the whole city uphill and only much later reconstructed the ravaged town.

Gela is a very claustrophobic and messy place on its streets.


----------



## brick84

MichiH said:


> Have the A18 works been started on schedule? Which lot (6, 7 or 8) is planned to be opened in December 2015? Any detailed information like section boundries or section lengths?


1. The works will be started in end of April.
2. The lots 6 and 7 (until 'Ispica-Pozzallo') have to be completed within December 2015.




CNGL said:


> That may explain why E45 touches its Southernmost point in Ispica and then goes sightly North until its "Southern" terminus in Gela.


Yes.
The junction of 'Ispica-Pozzallo' will also served the Port of Pozzallo and so *Malta*.


----------



## Fab87

italystf said:


> A4 near Vicenza


This is one of the most unpleasent parts of A4: right after the tunnel, direction Venice, you have to pay attention cause the street slightly but suddendly goes left, than right, than left again, then right again, for no clear reason.


----------



## keber

italystf said:


> Yes, it should be completed now, although I never did it. It's part of the Salzburg - Grado cycleway. The section through Valcanale follows the former railway.
> http://www.alpe-adria-radweg.com/it/tourguide/


I have a plan for this year however there is an issue of getting back as it is quite long.


----------



## g.spinoza

New junction "Manoppello" on A25 is going to open next 3rd April at 11.30. It will serve a brand new logistic centre in the town of Manoppello Scalo. The junction is complete for quite some time, but I guess they waited until the logistic centre was completed too:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/42.3073/14.0494


----------



## Eddard Stark

g.spinoza said:


> New junction "Manoppello" on A25 is going to open next 3rd April at 11.30. It will serve a brand new logistic centre in the town of Manoppello Scalo. The junction is complete for quite some time, but I guess they waited until the logistic centre was completed too: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/42.3073/14.0494


It was there al ready for some time... The exit is also useful for the general traffic in Pescara-chiedo metro area


----------



## cinxxx

Hello guys!

As I wrote a month ago, I'm planning to do a trip in Italy for Easter.
I'm planning to leave on 17th April after work and return on Monday, 21st April.

My question: should I switch to summer tires or not? I'm a little biased. I'm thinking temps in Italy should be high enough, and I'm not planning to drive to late at night or to early in the morning, but I still have to go over Brenner in Austria and in Italy.

One possibility I'm thinking of is to mount the summer tires on my Leon, and if the conditions really prove to be not good for them, we could take drive with my gf's Cinquecento (his name is Luigi btw :lol equipped still with winter tires. It won't be that comfortable though.


----------



## narkelion

Luigi. Awesome. :bow: 

BTW, I don't think you'll need winter tyres, I presume it will be hot enough even in A22 or Austria.

Moreover, you must have winter tyres or snowchains only between 15th of November and 15th of April, so you're perfectly on the "summer tyre" part of the year.

I went as high as 1200 meters above sea level with my motorbike last weekend, and I saw no snow.


----------



## g.spinoza

I agree with narkelion. Snow line should be above 1800m, except for northern exposures. Go for summer tires.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Grazie a tutti :cheers2:


----------



## Fab87

I usually switch back to summer tires around mid march


----------



## cinxxx

Me again. Which of these 2 routes is better?
http://goo.gl/maps/Qkd48 or http://goo.gl/maps/dm36T

Or maybe you have a better one?


----------



## CNGL

Go this way :troll:


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Fab87 said:


> I usually switch back to summer tires around mid march


oh, crap. Winter tires! Got to switch for sure, next week.


----------



## Suburbanist

cinxxx said:


> Me again. Which of these 2 routes is better?
> http://goo.gl/maps/Qkd48 or http://goo.gl/maps/dm36T
> 
> Or maybe you have a better one?


Second one is much better.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Thanks! :cheers2:

One more thing, I tried to search on StreetView, but didn't have much success, are there places on the road where you can stop and take some panoramic pictures of the Gradara Castle, like these? What route is the nicest from San Marino to Gradara? The quickest should be the motorway...


Gradara von glauco's & antonella's auf Flickr


Castello di Gradara (PU) Italy von Andrea Gessi auf Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

Some pictures from my recent trip to Italy (and San Marino)...

*A22*

ITA_A22 von cinxxx auf Flickr

*Entering Italy from San Marino at GualdiccioloTorello*

RSM-Gualdicciolo / ITA-Torello von cinxxx auf Flickr

*SR258*

SR_258 von cinxxx auf Flickr


SR_258 von cinxxx auf Flickr


SR_258 von cinxxx auf Flickr


SR_258 von cinxxx auf Flickr


SR_258 von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

*View from SR258 towards Lago artificiale di Montedoglio*

SR_258 - Lago artificiale di Montedoglio von cinxxx auf Flickr

*Secondary road towards SS3bis*

Secondary road near Pieve Santo Stefano von cinxxx auf Flickr


Secondary road near Pieve Santo Stefano von cinxxx auf Flickr

*SS3bis* - bad pavement hno:


ITA_SS3bis von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_SS3bis von cinxxx auf Flickr


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## cinxxx

*SS75*


ITA_SS75 von cinxxx auf Flickr

*Getting off towards Assisi*

ITA_SS75 von cinxxx auf Flickr

*Assisi*

Assisi von cinxxx auf Flickr

*Back on SS75*

ITA_SS75 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_SS75 von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

*SS448*


ITA_SS448 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_SS448 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_SS448 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_SS448 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_SS448 von cinxxx auf Flickr


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## cinxxx

*SP12*


ITA_SP12 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_SP12 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_SP12 von cinxxx auf Flickr

*Beautiful view from SP12 towards Orvieto*


Orvieto von cinxxx auf Flickr


Orvieto von cinxxx auf Flickr

*And Spanish Lion* 


ITA_SP12 von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

*A1*


ITA_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

The last set of pictures. Weather was unfortunately bad on Easter Monday...

*SS240*

ITA_SS240 von cinxxx auf Flickr

*A22*

ITA_A22 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_A22 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_A22 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_A22 von cinxxx auf Flickr


ITA_A22 von cinxxx auf Flickr

*The A22 seen from Chiusa/Klausen*

Chiusa/Klausen von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## italystf

cinxxx said:


> *SP12*
> 
> 
> ITA_SP12 von cinxxx auf Flickr
> 
> 
> ITA_SP12 von cinxxx auf Flickr
> 
> 
> ITA_SP12 von cinxxx auf Flickr
> 
> *Beautiful view from SP12 towards Orvieto*
> 
> 
> Orvieto von cinxxx auf Flickr
> 
> 
> Orvieto von cinxxx auf Flickr
> 
> *And Spanish Lion*
> 
> 
> ITA_SP12 von cinxxx auf Flickr


Just a note: SP*** roads are provincial roads and each of our 110 provinces has its own numbering scheme. So, SP12 alone, without saying in which province it is, has no meaning, it can be anywhere in Italy.
SS*** and SR*** roads, instead, are unique.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Thanks about that, didn't know 
SP12 is in Umbria, Terni province, bewteen Civita di Bognaregio and Orvieto.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Just a note: SP*** roads are provincial roads and each of our 110 provinces has its own numbering scheme. So, SP12 alone, without saying in which province it is, has no meaning, it can be anywhere in Italy.
> SS*** and SR*** roads, instead, are unique.


SR*** are regional roads, so each region should have their own too.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> SR*** are regional roads, so each region should have their own too.


Virtually all SR roads are former SS road that kept their original numbers. Afaik, only Veneto issued SR roads from scratch.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Virtually all SR roads are former SS road that kept their original numbers. Afaik, only Veneto issued SR roads from scratch.


It's something of a mess: some regions have no SR roads, some regions do but mantain SS denomination, some others renumbered them so that technically there could be two or more roads in Italy with the same SR denomination (I don't know if there actually are).


----------



## Suburbanist

Italy needs a serious renumbering plan for its non-_autostrade_ roads.


----------



## g.spinoza

Tender for construction of Autostrada del Molise (A1-A14 link in southern Italy) will be awarded within the year. According to Autostrade del Molise SpA, promoter of the project, the first stretch to be built will be Campobasso - Cantalupo del Sannio (~30 km).


----------



## narkelion

Suburbanist said:


> Italy needs a serious renumbering plan for its non-autostrade roads.


^^ it definately does.


----------



## -Pino-

^^ Not only for its non-autostrade, I might say. There was a hint, somewhere last year, on the Italian forum that a rationalisation of the autostrade might be forthcoming. I'm not sure about its status. But once you are engaging in renumbering autostrade, wouldn't it make sense to also tackle non-autostrade and make it one big numbering system? It would resolve an issue that many European countries have to deal with: the non-motorways with the lowest numbers have generally lost their importance because they now service corridors much better serviced by motorways, while the non-motorways that truly supplement the motorway system tend to have much higher numbers.

I could imagine a system in which the first 100 routes are made up out of the autostrade, the raccordi autostradale, the superstrade and the most important single carriageway statali (the latter categories of course carrying a different prefix). The statali not part of this core network would have three-digit numbers.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Suburbanist said:


> Italy needs a serious renumbering plan for its non-_autostrade_ roads.


They old Strada Statale system was fine. I don't understand why roads have to be renumbered after they are transferred to another administrative division. France also destroyed its fine route national numbering system because of the decentralization. Why can't a regional government maintain a road with a national route number? It shouldn't matter for motorists who owns the route #1 or #999.


----------



## g.spinoza

In a country were there are still signs pointing to A2, which has been non-existent for 25 years, this discussion is sadly moot.


----------



## narkelion

A complete road-numbering revision would be awesome, but I don't think it will work much.

There are some roads that simply cannot change number, such as Aurelia (SS1), Flaminia (SS3), Salaria (SS4), Tiburtina (SR5), Appia (SS7), Emilia (SS9), Adriatica (SS16), Abetone e Brennero (SS12), Jonica (SS17), Padana inferiore and superiore (SS10 and 11) and so on. 

I cannot imagine other numbers for those. As well as some highways, like A1.


What I would really be happy to get rid of are the many "var/dir/bus/ter/quater" that I feel really useless.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> They old Strada Statale system was fine. I don't understand why roads have to be renumbered after they are transferred to another administrative division. France also destroyed its fine route national numbering system because of the decentralization. Why can't a regional government maintain a road with a national route number? It shouldn't matter for motorists who owns the route #1 or #999.


Actually in Italy most roads didn't change their numbers after being downgraded from national to provincial or regional.


----------



## Verso

-Pino- said:


> It would resolve an issue that many European countries have to deal with: the non-motorways with the lowest numbers have generally lost their importance because they now service corridors much better serviced by motorways, while the non-motorways that truly supplement the motorway system tend to have much higher numbers.


What you're proposing exists in Slovenia, but I can't really say I like it.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> italystf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a note: SP*** roads are provincial roads and each of our 110 provinces has its own numbering scheme. So, SP12 alone, without saying in which province it is, has no meaning, it can be anywhere in Italy.
> SS*** and SR*** roads, instead, are unique.
> 
> 
> 
> SR*** are regional roads, so each region should have their own too.
Click to expand...




g.spinoza said:


> there could be two or more roads in Italy with the same SR denomination (I don't know if there actually are).


So, what should be the correct numbering? Is the numbering of these projects clear without ambiguity?



MichiH said:


> *SS106:* Nova Siri Scalo bypass 12 5km (September 2011 to Spring 2014) – project – map
> *SS318:* Valfabbrica – Pianello 12 8.5km (2009 to Spring 2014) – project – map
> *SS640:* Agrigento – Canicatti 2 8km (March 2009 to Summer 2014) – project – map
> *SP14:* Segrate – Vignate 21 6.7km (2010 to 2014) – project – map
> *SP14:* Vignate – Liscate (A58) 12 5.2km (2010 to 2014) – project – map
> *SS106:* Gioiosa-East – Gioiosa Jonica 12 3.5km (September 2011 to December 2014) – project – map
> *SS106:* Roccella Jonica-Canne – Gioiosa-East 12 8km (? to December 2014) – project – map
> *SS77:* Colfiorito – Bavareto 12 9km (November 2009 to December 2014) – project – map
> *SS77:* Foligno (SS3) – Colfiorito 12 19km (November 2009 to Early 2015) – project – map
> *SS77:* Bavareto – Pontelatrave 12 8km (November 2009 to Early 2015) – project – map
> *SP103:* Pioltello - Pozzuolo Martesana (A58) 21 6.8km (2008 to 2015) – project – map
> *SP415:* Spino d'Adda – Dovera 21 6.5km (July 2013 to 2015) – project – map
> *SS223:* Monticiano – Civitella Paganico 2 11km (2013 to 2015) – project – map
> *SS534:* Spezzano Albanese-Terme – Sibari Marina 2 14km (November 2013 to December 2015) – project – map
> *SS640:* Cannemaschi – Caltanissetta (A19) 2 34km (April 2012 to 2016) – project – map
> *SS76:* Albacina – Serra San Quirico 2 11km (Early 2009 to _suspended_) – project – map
> *SS76:* Fossato di Vico – Cancelli di Fabriano 2 7km (Early 2009 to _suspended_) – project – map


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> They old Strada Statale system was fine. I don't understand why roads have to be renumbered after they are transferred to another administrative division. France also destroyed its fine route national numbering system because of the decentralization. Why can't a regional government maintain a road with a national route number? It shouldn't matter for motorists who owns the route #1 or #999.


they have done it in Croatia, too. dunno, D28 enters to area of Bjelovar municipality and it suddenly becomes ŽC3300 :nuts:
also, "A" roads (motorways) here can be only those which are under jurisdiction of one of 4 concessionaires. if national road managment company builds a motorway and keeps it under their jurisdiction, it will probably get name D436 or something like that.


----------



## cinxxx

I have a question, after driving in Italy.
Not considering lane hogging, over-speeding and other driving habits  

Is there a rule when a limitation is canceled, without driving up to a cancellation sign? I found myself in this situation many times (also on motorways), and I didn't know if I could speed up again or not. And since most drivers didn't give a fudge about speed limitations, it was hard to figure it out.

I think exit signs from localities are also missing from time to time. Or maybe I got to hard used to excellent and rigorous signage in Germany and Austria 

As a bonus fact, I felt in Italy like home (Romania)


----------



## Suburbanist

On controlled-accessed rodas, you can assume that an on-ramp that is not followed by a speed signs means it is a highway with blank maximum speed.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> On controlled-accessed rodas, you can assume that an on-ramp that is not followed by a speed signs means it is a highway with blank maximum speed.


The same on non-controlled-accessed roads: the blank speed limit begins at the first intersection, unless otherwise signposted (after the intersection).


----------



## cinxxx

^^I knew this rule from when I got my drivers license in RO. 
Maybe I just used to how in Germany (at least in the parts I drove) you almost always get a cancellation sign or a sign with a different speed limit, be it motorway, expressway, outside or local roads.


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> So, what should be the correct numbering? Is the numbering of these projects clear without ambiguity?
> 
> SS106: Nova Siri Scalo bypass 12 5km (September 2011 to Spring 2014) – project – map
> SS318: Valfabbrica – Pianello 12 8.5km (2009 to Spring 2014) – project – map
> SS640: Agrigento – Canicatti 2 8km (March 2009 to Summer 2014) – project – map
> SP14: Segrate – Vignate 21 6.7km (2010 to 2014) – project – map
> SP14: Vignate – Liscate (A58) 12 5.2km (2010 to 2014) – project – map
> SS106: Gioiosa-East – Gioiosa Jonica 12 3.5km (September 2011 to December 2014) – project – map
> SS106: Roccella Jonica-Canne – Gioiosa-East 12 8km (? to December 2014) – project – map
> SS77: Colfiorito – Bavareto 12 9km (November 2009 to December 2014) – project – map
> SS77: Foligno (SS3) – Colfiorito 12 19km (November 2009 to Early 2015) – project – map
> SS77: Bavareto – Pontelatrave 12 8km (November 2009 to Early 2015) – project – map
> SP103: Pioltello - Pozzuolo Martesana (A58) 21 6.8km (2008 to 2015) – project – map
> SP415: Spino d'Adda – Dovera 21 6.5km (July 2013 to 2015) – project – map
> SS223: Monticiano – Civitella Paganico 2 11km (2013 to 2015) – project – map
> SS534: Spezzano Albanese-Terme – Sibari Marina 2 14km (November 2013 to December 2015) – project – map
> SS640: Cannemaschi – Caltanissetta (A19) 2 34km (April 2012 to 2016) – project – map
> SS76: Albacina – Serra San Quirico 2 11km (Early 2009 to suspended) – project – map
> SS76: Fossato di Vico – Cancelli di Fabriano 2 7km (Early 2009 to suspended) – project – map


All SS's here listed are real Strada Statale.
SP14 "Rivoltana" and SP103 "Cassanese" belong to province Milan.
SP415 "Paullese" (at least the stretched here reported) belongs to province Lodi.

Maybe it's better specified, because there are lots of SP14's, for instance, in other provinces.


----------



## italystf

SP415 is the former SS415. Lombardy doesn't have SRs.


g.spinoza said:


> Maybe it's better specified, because there are lots of SP14's, for instance, in other provinces.


Coincidence, around the city of Trieste, there are SS14, SR14 and SP14 within few kilometers.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ That's what I said. SP415 belongs to province Lodi.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ That's what I said. SP415 belongs to province Lodi.


I know, it was just to explain to foreigners.


----------



## -Pino-

narkelion said:


> There are some roads that simply cannot change number, such as Aurelia (SS1), Flaminia (SS3), Salaria (SS4), Tiburtina (SR5), Appia (SS7), Emilia (SS9), Adriatica (SS16), Abetone e Brennero (SS12), Jonica (SS17), Padana inferiore and superiore (SS10 and 11) and so on. I cannot imagine other numbers for those. As well as some highways, like A1.


Sounds like more of a question of "won't change" than of "cannot change". One might say that, in being so conservative, older generations withhold future generations a logical and coherent numbering system, but surely everybody will find logic, coherence and cost arguments in favour of the current system. Anyway, one should probably be realistic for many of these routes well embedded in Italian consciousness. On the other hand, though, the French have ruthlessly brought their comparable routes into four-digit D-numbers, so never say never.

Anyway, those 'useless but classical' numbers aside, the main problem to tackle is not really that SS9 is completely bypassed by A1 and A14 and therefore arguably not worth a low number. It is the important routes that are stuck somewhere with high numbers. Most of the time, they were only added to the SS-system when a route was needed between a motorway and an important town; or the route was previously in the SS-system but a backwater road until it started to form the connection to a motorway. Prime examples would be SS675 (Civitavecchia - Terni) but also a superstrada like SS434 (Verona - Rovigo). And of course there is the SS106, which sits in the primary network of SS-routes, but at a place where not many people would recognise it as such.

A reconciliation between these principles might be found in combining A-routes and principal statali into one numbering system in which the non-autostrade get a new prefix - maybe N would work. An important Statale like 3bis would be taken into this new class and could become something like N2 (A2 if upgraded). Existing A-numbers could be retained as much as possible, particularly the lower ones, but diramirazioni and routes like A4/A5 would obtain new A-numbers. And the class of SS-routes and SR2 would just be one of pretty unimportant routes, in which Aurelia can remain SS1, Cassia SR2 etc. Just to serve historical and hilarical purposes.


----------



## g.spinoza

I know I said this before, but I think this is something that concerns only us road-nerds. This kind of administrative numbering is useful to administrations themselves, and given the fact that Italian drivers don't give squat about road numbers, this situation is never going to change: too big the effort and the expense, too little to gain.


----------



## -Pino-

^^ Fully appreciate the point, but it is a chicken-and-egg story. Without rationalisation of the route numbers and, most importantly, route numbers being signposted decently, nobody will ever care. And since us road nerds tend to agree that good road numbers will eventually help the motorist, why not break the deadlock? Eventually, the story 'nobody bothers' is not uniquely Italian. The story is as old as signposted route numbers; just refer to the stories behind the introduction of US Routes in the 1920s. And just look at how Americans look at road numbers these days. The story also somehow surfaced in Australia, where state governments decided to invest in newly signposted route numbers because the old system deserved an overhaul - all this despite Australians commonly preferring highway names over highway number. I see it in the Netherlands, too, where national road numbers were first signposted in the 1970s and have slowly creeped into the national consciousness (and wayfinding) maybe only in the last 15 years or so. 

In a way, the question is not about the current generation that is less interested, but about what you can do for future generations of motorists. But I appreciate that this is not the way politicians or pubic servants tend to spend their energy and funding.


----------



## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> And since us road nerds tend to agree that good road numbers will eventually help the motorist,


I am a road-nerd but I don't agree to that. Inconsistent road numbers never prevented me, or anyone in Italy for that matter, to reach my destination. This is going to be even more true in future due to gps availability.

I like consistency in road numbers but just from a conceptual point of view.


----------



## -Pino-

I never said that an irrational route numbering system prevents people from reaching their destination. A rational and well-signposted route numbering system is, in a way, the ideal situation, but people will find their way without one. GPS is only a further ancillary step.


----------



## g.spinoza

-Pino- said:


> I never said that an irrational route numbering system prevents people from reaching their destination. A rational and well-signposted route numbering system is, in a way, the ideal situation, but people will find their way without one.


An ideal situation, agreed, but to whom? If people don't need them to drive to destination, why an administration should spend money to implement a different system?



> GPS is only a further ancillary step.


Maybe now. I think in future GPS - and European Galileo - will be used more. Maybe not to find a destination per se, but think about directions to avoid traffic jams, for instance. People will leave on their gps more and more, even just to commute. The result, less and less people will *think* in terms of roads and route numbers, and more in terms of that pinky line on the screen.


----------



## -Pino-

^^ To be honest, I am not sure. People may no longer think in route numbers as a tool to plan their routes upfront, but people will need reassurance that they are on the right way. This is something that might be given through five focal points on each directional sign or reassurance sign, but arguably a logical and well signposted route number tied to ONE focal point is a more efficient way of achieving the same end result. It would be cheaper too, if you look at the huge stack signs that could be 'reduced'.


----------



## italystf

I think that we need a separate numbering scheme for _Strade Extraurbane Principali _(expressways\motorway-like roads), like they do in other countries (Austria, Slovenia, Poland,...). The prefix Sx could be an option. It may be consistent with the motorway numbers (for example the S26 between Gravellona Toce and Domodossola after the end of the A26, or the S4 Trieste bypass after the end of the A4, with the current RA13 included in A4).


----------



## Blackraven

Question:










Is this the new format for vehicle registration plates in Italy?


----------



## g.spinoza

BreBeMi SpA published some A35 tolls for light vehicles:

- Chiari Est/Treviglio (45 km): 7.1€
- Chiari Ovest/Treviglio (34 km): 5.3€
- Calcio/Chiaravaggio (19 km): 2.9€

a little more than 15 eurocent per km, more than double the tolls of A4 and A1.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> Tangenziale di *Como (A60*, part of Pedemontana Lombarda motorway) opening has been postponed to autumn 2014.


A60 or A59? :?



g.spinoza said:


> Our Italian forumer SvenHassel told us that codes have been assigned for tangenziali of Varese and Como - which are separate parts of Pedemontana Lombarda project:
> 
> Tangenziale di *Como: A59 *
> Tangenziale di Varese: A60


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> A60 or A59? :?


Dammit, whenever I don't check and try remembering by heart.

Tangenziale di Como, A59. :bash::bash::bash:


----------



## MichiH

^^ My offline list is correct but my online list is also wrong .


----------



## Samply

g.spinoza said:


> BreBeMi SpA published some A35 tolls for light vehicles:
> 
> - Chiari Est/Treviglio (45 km): 7.1€
> - Chiari Ovest/Treviglio (34 km): 5.3€
> - Calcio/Chiaravaggio (19 km): 2.9€
> 
> a little more than 15 eurocent per km, more than double the tolls of A4 and A1.



With those tolls, I hope their motorway stays nice, clean and empty, oh and shows off its nice shiny crash barriers for years to come!
You have got to be kidding me!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## g.spinoza

Enlargement works of A14 Ancona Nord-Senigallia are going to resume soon with a new deadline: 30 July 2015 for northbound carriageway, 30 October 2015 for the southbound one.


----------



## g.spinoza

A4 Novara-Milan works, variante of Bernate Ticino: now traffic flows in both directions on the new Ticino bridge, in one carriageway though. It wasn't clear from my point of view, but it seemed that the old stretch has been (or is being) already dismantled.


----------



## g.spinoza

GRA today, after some rain:










photo La Stampa.it


----------



## brick84

*Pics from A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*

source: www.strettoweb.com


viadotto Favazzina


















viadotto Sfalassà


----------



## Luki_SL

g.spinoza said:


> GRA today, after some rain:
> 
> 
> 
> photo La Stampa.it


Is it first time when the rain stopped all cars in this place?


----------



## italystf

Road collapsed in Rome due flooding.


----------



## Nexis




----------



## g.spinoza

Luki_SL said:


> Is it first time when the rain stopped all cars in this place?


I don't know. I remember something similar recently on the A1 and on the A12, not on GRA.


----------



## Alien x

g.spinoza said:


> I don't know. I remember something similar recently on the A1 and on the A12, not on GRA.


Few months ago the mud slide due to excessive rain that blocked GRA, but it was not the same place.


----------



## g.spinoza

Project Quadrilatero update.

Works on SS76 - SS318 are still on hold but a new schedule has been prepared, with works resuming between August and November and a completion date estimated at 2017.

SS77 works are going on, with the already stated deadlines of end 2014 and spring 2015.


----------



## g.spinoza

Aerial picture of future A4-A58 (TEEM) junction:









from l'Eco di Bergamo

A58 will _underpass_ A4: current A4 will have to be demolished and re-built, in the meanwhile traffic will flow on the two external carriageways, especially built for this.


----------



## brick84

*IV lot of 'Tangenziale Est' of Forlì (Emilia-Romagna region) opened*


----------



## Stravinsky

What's going to happen to the old viaduct next to the new one in Calabria?


----------



## Kemo

I have a question about A4 east of Venezia.
Last year there were some major upgrade works. Have they already finished? If no, do they cause traffic jams?

Also, are there any difficulties on the way between the border with Austria and La Spezia?


----------



## Suburbanist

Stravinsky said:


> What's going to happen to the old viaduct next to the new one in Calabria?


Demolition.


----------



## italystf

Beware you guys, the section of A4 with roadworks is scattered with speed traps, so it's better to obey the speed limit even if it's unreasonably low (with low traffic, even with narrow lanes, driving 100-110 could be safe but they put 80).


----------



## Fab87

WalkTheWorld said:


> Thks. It should all be 3x3. After the Slovenian network reached Hungary (and after so much capacity relocating to Hungary) the traffic became enormous (and Verso has a jon )


Not so enormous as it could have been expected, I'd say. 

A little O/T: when are they going to put draining asphalt on slovenian motorways? I drove Verona-Ljubljana during intense rain and the slovenian part was quite scary, especially in the downhill stretches.


----------



## hofburg

italystf said:


> Beware you guys, the section of A4 with roadworks is scattered with speed traps, so it's better to obey the speed limit even if it's unreasonably low (with low traffic, even with narrow lanes, driving 100-110 could be safe but they put 80).


they are easily spotted. and I wonder if they are active? majority of the traffic flows at 90-100kmh there.



Fab87 said:


> Not so enormous as it could have been expected, I'd say.
> 
> A little O/T: when are they going to put draining asphalt on slovenian motorways? I drove Verona-Ljubljana during intense rain and the slovenian part was quite scary, especially in the downhill stretches.


never  it's because of the warm climate Italy can do that. Slovenia could eventually put the draining asphalt on H4, but low traffic and smaller speeds don't make this a needed task.


----------



## brick84

*Modica, Sicily*

*SS 115 Siracusa-Trapani*

_'Guerrieri bridge' over the city_










 HEN-Magonza on Flickr


and few km after...

_'Irminio bridge' or 'Costanzo bridge'_









by HEN-Magonza on Flickr


----------



## brick84

*Highway A20 Messina-Palermo*


(pic of 2005)








by Luciana Vinde Maclean on Flickr


----------



## brick84

Costruction yard of new lots Rosolini-Modica (Highway Siracusa-Gela)


----------



## g.spinoza

Viaduct "Petrulla" on SS 626 dir near Licata, Sicily is closed due to a structural failure in one of its piers:









pic from online.stradeeautostrade.it

The viaduct was built in late 70s and it gave no indication of imminent structural failure: it was open when it collapsed (two cars involved, few people lightly injured).


----------



## g.spinoza

News on A52 completion. The project risks severe delays, or even cancellation, because workers found remains of a Roman settlement right where the road would pass. Further investigations are ongoing.

http://www.ilnotiziario.net/2014/07/04/scoperti-i-reperti-della-bollate-romana/


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ Nevertheless, works are proceeding at high rate. Since last week, as this news appeared, progress is impressive (batch no.3).
We will see if the news is reliable (I don't trust too much on local papers, mainly made by free-lance or volunteer reporters).


----------



## g.spinoza

Contract was finally signed for the construction of lots 6,7 and 8 of A18 in Sicily. Lot 8 deadline is on 2017, but lots 6 and 7 are due to be completed at the unrealistic deadline of 31st December 2015. So unrealistic that the concessionaire estimates 24 months of work of a viaduct and 35 for the other one...


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Contract was finally signed for the construction of lots 6,7 and 8 of A18 in Sicily. Lot 8 deadline is on 2017, but lots 6 and 7 are due to be completed at the unrealistic deadline of 31st December 2015. So unrealistic that the concessionaire estimates 24 months of work of a viaduct and 35 for the other one...


Wasn't 2018 choosed as official deadline few months ago?


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Wasn't 2018 choosed as official deadline few months ago?


Lot 8 deadline is 31st Dec 2017. I guess it's another way to say "2018".


----------



## Fab87

Can someone list the updated opening deadlines for the big three interventions in northern italy, i.e.:










1- BRE-BE-MI 
2- TEEM 
3- Pedemontana Lombarda 

thanks :cheers:


----------



## MichiH

Fab87 said:


> Can someone list the updated opening deadlines for the big three interventions in northern italy, i.e.:
> 1- BRE-BE-MI


23rd July 2014.



Fab87 said:


> 2- TEEM


June 2015 (first part 23rd July 2014).

See here: > click <.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Is A35 really going to be opened tomorrow ?
Or there is a new deadline ?


----------



## italystf

Yes, the whole A35 (Melzo-Brescia, 62km) and part of the A58 (Pozzuolo Martesana-Comazzo, 7km) will open tomorrow. I think it's the longest motorway opening in Italy since 1980.


----------



## Fab87

What about Pedemontana Lombarda?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The A9 / Pedemontana interchange as of April 2014.


----------



## italystf

Fab87 said:


> What about Pedemontana Lombarda?


The 15km-section of A36 from Cassano Magnago (junction with A8) and Lomazzo (junction with A9) will open on 1st Settember 2014. The 7,5km-section from Lomazzo (junction with A9) and Lentate sul Seveso (junction with SS35) will open on 30th April 2015.


----------



## italystf

italystf said:


> Yes, the whole A35 (Melzo-Brescia, 62km) and part of the A58 (Pozzuolo Martesana-Comazzo, 7km) will open tomorrow. I think it's the longest motorway opening in Italy since 1980.


They opened today at 3 p.m.
The toll for the entire stretch is 10,50€, around twice the amount for an average Italian motorway of that lenght. Currently there are not gas station or rest areas along that route, but they're planned.


----------



## Eddard Stark

sponge_bob said:


> I did. *I will repeat what I said again.*
> 
> Around 300-350km of the A3 is completed modern motorway. some 100-150km is not completed modern motorway but some of that 100-150km is under construction.
> 
> Pretty well the whole road from Naples to Reggio di Calabria, _as it was in 1980_, had to be reconstructed even if only to add missing hard shoulders to 2+2 sections.
> 
> Some sections of the Autostrada were even 1+1 with no hard shoulders and with dreadful alignments.


Driving on Salerno-Reggio you do not wonder why they built it substandard in the 60', but how they managed to build it back then. I venture to say nothing alike existed at the time in the european continent. Probably nowhere in the world.

Yes it was made in an old-fashoned way. But it was made. Today we are more used to highways in strange places, but A3 still remains a very impressive feat of engineering


----------



## Suburbanist

*Santa Maria di Pozzano tunnel opened (two weeks ago) on SS145*

Santa Maria di Pozzano road tunnel (3,3km) , carrying the new alignment of SS145 between Castellamare di Stabbia and Vico Equense, was opened July 14th. 

Groundbreaking was in 1979.

This new tunnel combines with another nearby tunnel to form a long shortcut compared to the beautiful, but slow, road along the nearby cliffs and under the town of Vico Equense. This other tunnel had been opened for a while.

Here you can see (Google SV) the point where this new tunnel begins within the old tunnel and here you can see its east portal.

Notice also the neat one-lane tunnel that carries traffic coming from the old road out of the way of westbound traffic.

Sorrento and the towns along the Amalfi road nearby are sought-after touristic destinations, and there is also a lot of commuter traffic on the Sorrentina peninsula. 









(C) makeinSud


----------



## Attus

^^Sorry, is my understanding right, this tunnel was built 35 years?


----------



## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> ^^Sorry, is my understanding right, this tunnel was built 35 years?


My sources state that groundbreaking was in 2005. Only the idea was born in 1979.


----------



## Suburbanist

They started geological probes in 1979 AFAIK.

That is the "groundbreaking" of a tunnel, at least for me.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ It seems odd, since the tender was awarded in 2002.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> They started geological probes in 1979 AFAIK.
> 
> That is the "groundbreaking" of a tunnel, at least for me.


So the Channel Tunnel is 180 years old...


----------



## keber

Suburbanist said:


> They started geological probes in 1979 AFAIK.
> 
> That is the "groundbreaking" of a tunnel, at least for me.


Geological probes are part of the process of designing a project, not construction.


----------



## Suburbanist

Okay, if we are talking about the process of setting the digging the definitive bore(s), then it started 11 years ago.


----------



## italystf

Billboard installed by Autostrade per L'Italia S.p.A. (the company who manages the A4 Milan - Brescia) to discourage drivers using the new A35. http://www.ecodibergamo.it/stories/...-un-cartello-e-guerra-sui-pedaggi_1069383_11/


----------



## g.spinoza

Who in his right mind would use A35 to go to Milano Est toll barrier?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nobody, so it's a bit unfair comparison.

However, they have a valid point with the high tolls on A35. 

If I understand correctly, the tolled segment ends at Castrezzato. € 12.40 for less than 45 km is *far* too high. That translates to over € 0.27 per kilometer, which is approximately 3 times the common toll rate on Italian motorways. You can charge that on short urban toll routes, but not on longer routes because it will create a substantial loss of demand, and less relief on local roads.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ The 12.40€ figure is a mistake, the correct fare should be around 10.50€... A51, from BreBeMi to Milano Est, is free.


----------



## Verso

"Mistake", mhmm...


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Who in his right mind would use A35 to go to Milano Est toll barrier?


The definition Milano Est is ambiguous and misleading here: for Autostrade per L'Italia, Milano Est means the Milano Est toll barrier, while for many people Milano Est is the eastern outskirt of Milan (Segrate, Linate, Melegnano,...). From Brescia Ovest to Milano Est toll barrier, A4 is obviously shorter and faster (in absence of huge jams on A4). But from Brescia to the south-eastern outskirt of Milan, A35 is shorter and faster.


----------



## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

_New viaduct to across the railway line near Rosolini's junction_

location: https://www.google.it/maps/place/96...1!3m1!1s0x131188d0414f494b:0xeba0a53be2f1cba9


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ The 12.40€ figure is a mistake, the correct fare should be around 10.50€... A51, from BreBeMi to Milano Est, is free.


No, there's a toll barrier were You have to pay €1.90. So €12.40 is correct.


----------



## g.spinoza

Passante nord of Bologna (A14-A1) will likely begin construction soon. Every party involved (Autostrade, Ministry, all municipalities but two) reached an agreement and next September the project will have to be submitted and receive Environmental impact assessment.


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> I received an answer by the concessionaire: they're making me pay 9.80€, trusting my own statement about my travel path, not the full 79€ of the longest motorway stretch possible.


What is the longest stretch possible in Italy going from Alte Stazione to Alte Stazione? The longest I have done a number of times in Italy is from Brenner to Naples and vv. In France the longest I can remember is from Reims to Geneva. Would have been Paris-Bordeaux if it wasn't for the fact that there is a toll plaza in the way at Tours...


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I think it could be Brenner-Taranto, not sure.


----------



## Suburbanist

Taranto-Ventimiglia. € 95,00 in tolls.

The funny thing is that there are 4 different ways to complete travel between those two points.

Other uninterrupted sectors
€ 77,20 - Brennero-Taranto
€ 79,70 - Tarvisio-Taranto


----------



## Road_UK

How much does Brenner- Naples cost in tolls? And Brenner Taranto? I think it's all maximum anyway...


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> Taranto-Ventimiglia. € 95,00 in tolls.
> 
> The funny thing is that there are 4 different ways to complete travel between those two points.


Via La Spezia, Livorno it's interrupted by a motorway toll plaza. You could probably do it via Piacenza in one go...


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> How much does Brenner- Naples cost in tolls?


77.20€



> And Brenner Taranto? I think it's all maximum anyway...


65.50€


----------



## CNGL

Road_UK said:


> Via La Spezia, Livorno it's interrupted by a motorway toll plaza. You could probably do it via Piacenza in one go...


Not if you go to Pisa North. In any case there's not need to reach Livorno, the motorway currently ends some kilometers South of there.

Luckily A3 South of Salerno is troll-free, and there's no bridge to Sicily (yet), so it could have been longer and higher...


----------



## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> Via La Spezia, Livorno it's interrupted by a motorway toll plaza. You could probably do it via Piacenza in one go...


Since 2008, AFAIK, it is possible to drive between Lucca and La Spezia without going though any toll barrier. Check this route.


----------



## Kemo

Did the substandard A12 La Spezia - Sestri Levante use to be an ordinary superstrada before? It is missing hard shoulder on its entire lenght and the median is very narrow.
There are also remnants of a toll plaza here: http://goo.gl/maps/qPXYl


----------



## Suburbanist

Courmayeur-Taranto is actually more expensive if you take the barrier-free route. € 104,70.


----------



## Luki_SL

g.spinoza said:


> Passante nord of Bologna (A14-A1) will likely begin construction soon. Every party involved (Autostrade, Ministry, all municipalities but two) reached an agreement and next September the project will have to be submitted and receive Environmental impact assessment.


Is there any plans of this road? It`ll be part of A14 ?


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ There have been many plans and projects throughout the years, long passante, short passante, south passante... not sure which one they chose. I guess it will be part of A14, but nothing is official yet.


----------



## italystf

CNGL said:


> Not if you go to Pisa North. In any case there's not need to reach Livorno, the motorway currently ends some kilometers South of there.
> 
> Luckily A3 South of Salerno is *troll*-free, and there's no bridge to Sicily (yet), so it could have been longer and higher...


:troll:


----------



## pccvspw999

CNGL said:


> Luckily A3 South of Salerno is *troll-free*, and there's no bridge to Sicily (yet), so it could have been longer and higher...


Nope! Due to the fact that it's free, there are many trolls using it and pretending that also the new motorway shall stay "toll-free".
In order to avoid "trolls", I want "toll" on A3:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

CNGL said:


> Not if you go to Pisa North. In any case there's not need to reach Livorno, the motorway currently ends some kilometers South of there.
> 
> Luckily A3 South of Salerno is troll-free, and there's no bridge to Sicily (yet), so it could have been longer and higher...


 Trolls on a motorway- that can be dangerous


----------



## Suburbanist

AsteyHighways posted this new video


----------



## Autobahn-mann

Kemo said:


> Did the substandard A12 La Spezia - Sestri Levante use to be an ordinary superstrada before? It is missing hard shoulder on its entire lenght and the median is very narrow.


Nope. It was opened in January *1975*!


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Other pics of A35 BreBeMi 



3naranze said:


> Qualche foto della A35 il 31 luglio.
> Manca il casello di Romano, perché lo stress per arrivarci da Crema senza un-cartello-uno, non mi ha fatto pensare in tempo alle foto.
> 
> Sottopasso per immettersi in direzione BS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ingresso in autostrada (magari l'A4 fosse stata così, più tardi!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Volendo qualcuno da sorpassare si trova!
> 
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> vShNx9nJI/AAAAAAAABdQ/iv9OYxrKZ80/s912/20140731_170901.jpg
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## CNGL

^^ I like the exit for _Soccer_.


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## sponge_bob

Kemo said:


> Did the substandard A12 La Spezia - Sestri Levante use to be an ordinary superstrada before? It is missing hard shoulder on its entire lenght and the median is very narrow.
> 
> 
> Autobahn-mann said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. It was opened in January *1975*!
Click to expand...

I drove FR Border/Ventimiglia - Rome once and the entire motorway was utterly crap with heavy traffic until I reached Pisa and finally found a modern motorway...plus I had to go through Genoa not around it. 

Mind you I drove Reggio di Calabria to Rome in 1990 as well, that was a horrible drive until I passed Napoli. At least they are working hard on that motorway nowadays but Pisa to FR.Border will be crap for a looooong time.


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## Attus

Has A35 any importance so that it does not reach Milan at present?


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## Suburbanist

sponge_bob said:


> I drove FR Border/Ventimiglia - Rome once and the entire motorway was utterly crap with heavy traffic until I reached Pisa and finally found a modern motorway...plus I had to go through Genoa not around it.


There is the "Passante di Genova" project to address the worst bottlenecks near and around Genova. Total extension: 53km


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## Road_UK

I like the A10, A12 through Genua. Nice and bendy, great views and lots of tunnels. There is a low speed limit on there, but nobody takes the blindest bit of notice...


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## GENIUS LOCI

sponge_bob said:


> I drove FR Border/Ventimiglia - Rome once and the entire motorway was utterly crap with heavy traffic until I reached Pisa and finally found a modern motorway...plus I had to go through Genoa not around it.
> 
> Mind you I drove Reggio di Calabria to Rome in 1990 as well, that was a horrible drive until I passed Napoli. At least they are working hard on that motorway nowadays but Pisa to FR.Border will be crap for a looooong time.


Coming from France and driving on A10 gives you the impression the highway is not so good.

But despite the evidence it has a couple of better things respect French A8.
First of all it has not steep climbs (on A8 there are escape 'lanes' for trucks going toward Nice in case of breaks malfuncion due to the steepness) and then A10 got draining asphalt while A8 hasn't got.

I used to cross Ventimiglia border quite often, and coming from France while raining you literally can't see anything. Once you're on Italian A10 you have just to note that what you thought it was a storm it is just a little drizzle.
No kidding.

I don't mind having tons of eletronic signage (just saying '_Rappel 90_' all the time) and glittering tunnels that look like christmas trees if every time it rains I can't see the road

Then A10 has tons of problems due to its age. First of all tunnels adjustment to modern safety standards. But it's hard because there are a lots of tunnels and to improve 'em you need a lot of money.


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## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> Has A35 any importance so that it does not reach Milan at present?


It was not designed to reach Milan. And it never will. A35 connects to External tangenziale... if you really have to reach the city, you will have to drive "Rivoltana" or "Cassanese" roads, motorway-like connectors.



sponge_bob said:


> I drove FR Border/Ventimiglia - Rome once and the entire motorway was utterly crap with heavy traffic until I reached Pisa and finally found a modern motorway...plus I had to go through Genoa not around it.


It's not the best motorway in the world but I don't think it's "crap".


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## Fab87

Draining asphalt is a big plus for italian highways. I had the same experience when crossing the slovenian border during a rainy day. 

Slovenian A3 +A1 was quite scary due to the combination of rain and steep climbs.

A4 from Trieste to Venice (which is the worst part of A4) looked way safer despite the problems we all know. 

Same applies to italian A10 vs French A8. The latter is by no means a nice highway. A10 would need renovation works but again, take a look around: are you surprised that the Genova bypass hasn't been built yet? It would cost billions of euro.


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## Suburbanist

According to this source (not a professional one, but a neat and detailed compilation of highway special structures in Italy), there are *116 westbound tunnels on A10 between Genova and the French border* on A10 and 122 on eastbound lanes.

On A12 all the way down to Cecina there are another 57 tunnels per direction. 

The total combined length traveled underground by a driver going all the way from French border to Cecina will be 86km.

The mere fact this highway link exists, and has existed for decades, is an impressive feature.


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## Fab87

Many italian highways built in the 60's and 70's are indeed impressive from an engineering point of view. 

A3, A1 Firenze-Bologna, A10, A12, A24...


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## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> According to this source (not a professional one, but a neat and detailed compilation of highway special structures in Italy), there are *116 westbound tunnels on A10 between Genova and the French border* on A10 and 122 on eastbound lanes.
> 
> On A12 all the way down to Cecina there are another 57 tunnels per direction.
> 
> The total combined length traveled underground by a driver going all the way from French border to Cecina will be 86km.
> 
> *The mere fact this highway link exists, and has existed for decades, is an impressive feature.*


Absolutely. I'd also like to add that the railway going in the same direction is equally impressive and with even more tunnels. 

Three years ago I drove from Genoa to the French border (en route to Nice) using exclusively the small roads hugging the coastline. Very beautiful, but also very slow even before the start of the proper tourist season.


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## sponge_bob

Fab87 said:


> Many italian highways built in the 60's and 70's are indeed impressive from an engineering point of view.
> 
> A3, A1 Firenze-Bologna, A10, A12, A24...


Absolutely. Brilliant engineering and many of Europes most impressive viaducts to this very day are Italian built from the 1970s.

What I could never understand was how crap the alignments/safety features and laybys and road/lane widths are on some of these roads, the A10 and A12 in particular. There is absolutely no safety margin in the design.

The A3 had an unfortunate history that had nothing to do with design standards as such.

After all Italy had been building motorways for 50 years by the time the A10 / A12 were built and _of all countries_ Italy surely must have realised how inadequate these roads were.


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## Suburbanist

^^ It is now that simple. Viaducts and especially tunnels have costs heavily linked to their dimensions. Those extra 3m x 120 tunnels would add a lot of cost.

It was either a substandard route, or no motorway.


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## ChrisZwolle

sponge_bob said:


> After all Italy had been building motorways for 50 years by the time the A10 / A12 were built.


Autostrada, yes, but motorways, no. Italy did not built any true motorways (dual carriageways) until the late 1950s. The pre-World War II autostrade did not have divided carriageways. They were among the more modern roads in Europe, especially in the 1920s and first half of the 1930s, but not motorways in today's sense.


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## pccvspw999

The very first "motorways" have had single carriageway. Double carriageway was an innovation of the early 30ies. To follow this trend, Italy should have scrapped all his plans for motorways to build something it didn't have the money for (and also construction tecniques). What Italy build was "state-of-the-art".


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Fab87 said:


> Draining asphalt is a big plus for italian highways. I had the same experience when crossing the slovenian border during a rainy day.
> 
> Slovenian A3 +A1 was quite scary due to the combination of rain and steep climbs.
> 
> A4 from Trieste to Venice (which is the worst part of A4) looked way safer despite the problems we all know.
> 
> Same applies to italian A10 vs French A8. The latter is by no means a nice highway. A10 would need renovation works but again, take a look around: are you surprised that the Genova bypass hasn't been built yet? It would cost billions of euro.


A4 from Trieste to Venice is in my opinion best part of a motorway,because asphalt is great and terrain is very flat,so there are not so many curves.And i don't think that A10 is so bad.


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## Road_UK

A4 is pretty flat and curve-free all the way from Trieste to Turin. But between Verona and Milan it's very busy.


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## GENIUS LOCI

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was browsing through Google Earth due to the opening of A35, and I noticed there is *a lot* of highway construction going on east of Milano. Most are related to A35 and A58, but there's a massive upgrade of road infrastructure, with new bypasses, four-lane highways and grade-separation.


I found some videos showing works in progress

SP 103 _'Cassanese'_










SP 14 _'Rivoltana'_





SS 415 _'Paullese'_ (not linked with A35, but it will interchange with TEEM)


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## ChrisZwolle

Do I read it correctly that the Renzi government made available € 10.4 billion (!) for an autostrada from Orte to Mestre?

http://www.governo.it/governoinforma/documenti/SbloccaItalia/SbloccaItalia-cantieri.pdf


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Do I read it correctly that the Renzi government made available € 10.4 billion (!) for an autostrada from Orte to Mestre?
> 
> http://www.governo.it/governoinforma/documenti/SbloccaItalia/SbloccaItalia-cantieri.pdf


It appears so. Frankly, I think it's a little more than a boutade. I haven't the slightest idea about where he can find the total 30 billion for the 14 projects in the decree.

1- HSR Bari-Naples (2.9 G€)
2- HSR Turin-Lyon (2.9 G€)
3- Railway Messina-Catania-Palermo (5.25 G€)
4- Autostrada Orte-Mestre "Nuova Romea" (10.4 G€)
5- Autostrada A31 "Valdastico" north (1.031 G€)
6- Autostrada A52 "Tangenziale nord di Milano" completion (55 M€)
7- Autostrada A14 "Passante di Bologna" (1.3 G€)
8- Autostrada "Cispadana" Reggiolo-Ferrara (1.2 G€)
9- Superstrada Lioni-Grottaminarda b/w A16 and A3 (200 M€)

the other 5 projects are for upgrading airports of Genoa, Milan, Rome, Venice, Florence.


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## Suburbanist

If so much money is to be invest, priority #1 should be restarting the Messina Strait Bridge project :bash:


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## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Do I read it correctly that the Renzi government made available € 10.4 billion (!) for an autostrada from Orte to Mestre?
> 
> http://www.governo.it/governoinforma/documenti/SbloccaItalia/SbloccaItalia-cantieri.pdf


Yep. Map of that motorway here.










The Italian Government also plans to ditch a load of road and rail projects from their medium term capital program. ( out to 2020+ I'd think) 

Sadly this includes the A10 Genoa bypass....not that I plan on driving the A10 ever again and a third lane on the eastern part of the A4 is also pushed way back. 

The Brenner Base Tunnel southern approach is off the list as well, I'd say the Austrians will be well impressed with that.


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## narkelion

Isn't the new Orte-Mestre going to be the upgrade of the actual SS3 bis, aka E45? 

I've never seen this map you posted.


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## sponge_bob

narkelion said:


> Isn't the new Orte-Mestre going to be the upgrade of the actual SS3 bis, aka E45? I've never seen this map you posted.


Google offered it up, any chance they'll finish the Galleria Della Guinza then?


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## Verso

x-type said:


> has somebody mentioned some country here? it seems not.


Fine, removed.


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## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was in Italy today. All 15 kilometers of it. I wanted to clinch French A8, but my goal was to drive the Col de la Bonette (highest accessible road in Europe), so I turned around at Ventimiglia. The toll for that short stretch from the French border to Ventimiglia is € 2.50! For like 7 km... You get a ticket at the mainline plaza, which is at the Ventimiglia exit. Then you drive 400 meters on the off ramp and give your ticket to the attendant and pay € 2.50.


Col de la Bonette is amazing. 

As for landscape, in my humble opinion, the route through Col d'Iseran is the most impressive on French Alp passes > 2000m. Col du Monte Cenis is also interesting.


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## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was in Italy today. All 15 kilometers of it.


I thought Italy was longer. But I've also traversed the whole lenght of Portugal, 27 kilometers no less


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## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> Col de la Bonette is amazing.
> 
> As for landscape, in my humble opinion, the route through Col d'Iseran is the most impressive on French Alp passes > 2000m. Col du Monte Cenis is also interesting.


Col d'Izoard is much nicer, in my opinion. I just put some pics of it in the alpine pass roads thread.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Are there any plans for extending the A14 ?


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## g.spinoza

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Are there any plans for extending the A14 ?


None. The original plan was to extend it all the way to Calabria and connect to A3 near Sibari. This connection is currently supplied by SS106, (almost) all expressway standard.


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## Suburbanist

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Are there any plans for extending the A14 ?


Unfortunately not


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## brick84

*Highway Siracusa-Gela (Sicily)*

_New lots Rosolini-Modica_


Updates 
After Rosolini junction, works going on.




brick84 said:


> Pare si proceda.
> Operai e ruspe al lavoro stamattina.


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## brick84

*Costruction yard of new lots of Highway Siracusa-Gela (Sicily)*


location:










Updates:



brick84 said:


> Aggiornamento lavori





brick84 said:


> Altro cantiere un po' più a sud, altra Contrada in territorio ispicese.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

I have a question .How much kilometars of A3 are opened as a real motorway,how much are U/C or under renovation and how much of them are still to be renovated?


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## IThomas

*Renzi is thinking to build the bridge to avoid paying penalties. *


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## Suburbanist

A10 Genova-Savona (video by AsterHighways)


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## g.spinoza

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> I have a question .How much kilometars of A3 are opened as a real motorway,how much are U/C or under renovation and how much of them are still to be renovated?


341 km renovated.
34 km in construction.
16 km soon to begin construction.
52 km still pending.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Thank you.So this means that now A3 is almost good as every other motorway in Italy.


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## Suburbanist

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Thank you.So this means that now A3 is almost good as every other motorway in Italy.


A3 is better than some old highways like A10.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Why ?Many people are saying that A10 is a bad highway.Well the only problem with A10 is that it doesn't have hard shoulders on some parts.


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## g.spinoza

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Why ?Many people are saying that A10 is a bad highway.Well the only problem with A10 is that it doesn't have hard shoulders on some parts.


They were similar: no hard shoulder, reduced width lanes, reduced curvature radii, some steep sections. A10 is harder to fix because of the numerous tunnels.


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## Suburbanist

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Why ?Many people are saying that A10 is a bad highway.Well the only problem with A10 is that it doesn't have hard shoulders on some parts.


A10 has several substandard sectors, but contrary to A3, it is much more expensive to fix due to terrain constraints and, contrary to A3, you couldn't shut half of its lanes off alternating sectors for 10 years to reconstruct it.

A10 looks better, however, because it has been a concession since 1997, while A3 is managed by ANAS, which has lower standards and takes much longer to fix things like fading paint, landscaping, repaving of mildly damaged sections. Also, the concessionaire starts works with a clear path to finish them, ANAS has had a lot of trouble managing some contracts, leaving worksites stopped for up to 19 months with no progress at all (and traffic in 1+1 lane only!) etc.

From a geometrical point of view, A10 before concession was comparable to A3 pre-modernization.


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## IThomas

*Southern redemption behind Impregilo's blackmail.*


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *SS640:* Agrigento – Canicatti 2 8km (March 2009 to Summer 2014) – project – map
> *SS640:* Cannemaschi – Caltanissetta (A19) 2 34km (April 2012 to 2016) – project – map


I've checked the project page (June version). If I got it right, the first section should be completed/opened in January 2015 and the 2nd section in July 2016. Can anyone confirm?


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *SS106:* Nova Siri Scalo bypass 12 5km (September 2011 to October 2014) – project – map
> *SS96 Barese:* Mellitto – Toritto 2 5.4km (March 2010 to November 2014) – ? – map
> *SS318:* Valfabbrica – Pianello 12 8.5km (2009 to 2014) – project – map
> *A60:* Azzate Buguggiate (A8) – Cantello 12 11.6km (2010 to 2014) – project – map
> *A59:* Casnate con Bernate – Como 12 9.4km (2010 to Fall 2014) – project – map
> *A31:* Noventa Vicentina – Badia Polesine (SS434) 12 25km (September 2005 to Late 2014) – project – map
> *SS106:* Gioiosa-East – Gioiosa Jonica 12 3.5km (September 2011 to December 2014) – project – map
> *SS106:* Roccella Jonica-Canne – Gioiosa-East 12 8km (? to December 2014) – project – map
> *SS77:* Colfiorito – Bavareto 12 9km (November 2009 to December 2014) – project – map
> *A36:* Cassano Magnago (A8) – Lomazzo (A9) 12 15km (February 2010 to >= 2014) – project – map


Is there any news that a section is delayed? Are all sections still expected to be opened in 2014?

I've checked the SS106 project page (August version) but the completion percentage values (75%, 54%, 21%) seem to be outdated, don't they?


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## g.spinoza

A36 A59 and A60 are probably going to be delayed at least until the end of the year.
Don't know about the others.


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## Suburbanist

MichiH, what are these "12" you put before the length of each project :dunno:?


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## MichiH

^^ Two carriageways (1st and 2nd carriageway u/c / to be opened / opened)


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## brick84

MichiH said:


> I've checked the project page (June version). If I got it right, the first section should be completed/opened in January 2015 and the 2nd section in July 2016. Can anyone confirm?


No, first section of SS 640 will be completed in June 2015. 
The second is correct.


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## brick84

*SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta*

_Works on viaduct Giulfo_










http://cmcgruppo.com


----------



## Autobahn-mann

MichiH said:


> Is there any news that a section is delayed? Are all sections still expected to be opened in 2014?


The stretches on A31 will be opened in the end of this year _de jure_ (apart the stretch between Agugliaro and Noventa that will be open in 2015)


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## hofburg

grey weather on A4


DSC02116 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


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## g.spinoza

The weather's the same on the other side of the A4, near Turin


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## hofburg

then we have two things in common, weather and A4


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Are those plates on Audi A4 from Czech Republic ?


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## Road_UK

Yes.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

He is probably going on vacation.


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## Road_UK

You don't know that. The whole of Europe uses the Italian A4.


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## Suburbanist

A21 is a much better option to travel between Torino and Verona. Most of the time at least.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

It's better because you don't go throught Milantherwise A4 is faster and shorter


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## Suburbanist

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> It's better because *you don't go throught Milano.*Otherwise A4 is faster and shorter


That is exactly the point.


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## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> A21 is a much better option to travel between Torino and Verona. Most of the time at least.



I always use A21 between *Turin* and A22. But before Brenner there is still about 30 minutes of A4 to endure. The only thing I got against A21 is that you're stuck behind a overtaking lorry every 10 minutes.


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## g.spinoza

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> It's better because you don't go throught Milantherwise A4 is faster and shorter


It's not shorter, they are about the same length.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

g.spinoza said:


> It's not shorter, they are about the same length.


Acording to Google if you go throught Milan to Verona length is 324km.
And if you use A21 length is 352km.


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## brick84

*A18 Highway Siracusa-Gela*

_lots 6,7 Rosolini-Modica_

costruction yard











by pierpaolo tumino on Flickr









by pierpaolo tumino on Flickr










by pierpaolo tumino on Flickr









by pierpaolo tumino on Flickr










by pierpaolo tumino on Flickr











by pierpaolo tumino on Flickr









by pierpaolo tumino on Flickr


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

1772 said:


> Is there any plans to upgrade the A10/E80 from the french border towards Genova?


Curently it's going to be very hard to upgrade A10 because it's hilly terain and there is a big number of tunnels which are long and i think that upgrading would cost much money.Also A10 is 2x3 lanes between Genova and Savona.


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## friedrichstrasse

italystf said:


>


The signs uses the nowaday fonts (called Transport?), but I read it has been introduced in 1979...


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## Autobahn-mann

friedrichstrasse said:


> The signs uses the nowaday fonts (called Transport?), but I read it has been introduced in 1979...


As I've said before, in 1969


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## WalkTheWorld

Entering A35


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## 1772

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Curently it's going to be very hard to upgrade A10 because it's hilly terain and there is a big number of tunnels which are long and i think that upgrading would cost much money.Also A10 is 2x3 lanes between Genova and Savona.


Currently? The mountains are mountains and will probably stay there.  

Are there any plans at all?


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## italystf

1772 said:


> Currently? The mountains are mountains and will probably stay there.
> 
> Are there any plans at all?


No, there are no official plans. It would be an insane job to do, due the terrain (but after the recostruction of A3 nothing is impossible, except financially).
There is an old plan to build an outer bypass of Genoa (Gronda di Genova), but it encounters a lot of environmental opposition and it will be extremely expensive.








(in red the planned motorway)
Cost estimate in 2006 was 3 billion euros for only 18km of highway!


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## Luki_SL

WalkTheWorld said:


> Entering A35


Anybody knows the AADT on the A35?


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## hofburg

well according to the above photo it is at least 1/365 

edit: didn't notice 3 cars in front. so 4/365


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## narkelion

And it's not so far from that. :lol:

It's heavily underused.


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## g.spinoza

Luki_SL said:


> Anybody knows the AADT on the A35?


Around 16-18 thousand vehicles per day.


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## Verso

^^ How do you know?


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## 1772

italystf said:


> No, there are no official plans. It would be an insane job to do, due the terrain (but after the recostruction of A3 nothing is impossible, except financially).
> There is an old plan to build an outer bypass of Genoa (Gronda di Genova), but it encounters a lot of environmental opposition and it will be extremely expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (in red the planned motorway)
> Cost estimate in 2006 was 3 billion euros for only 18km of highway!


Yikes. Okay, thanks for the info. (Y)


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## italystf

Verso said:


> ^^ How do you know?


Probably toll collection data.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

And what is the number of trucks on that road ?


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## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> ^^ How do you know?


It was all over the news. Google "a35 veicoli giorno"


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## darko06

Just for the information. What is the maximum allowed speed at Autostrada Pontebbana, from Tarvisio to Udine, tunnels included? I was driving there yesterday, and it seems that in the tunnels one may drive up to 130 kmh? Because before the entrance to the most tunnels there are only signs for supposed speed of 100 kmh (green rectangle with white number, something like German sign for supposed speed of 130 kmh on the Autobahns: blue rectangle with white number).
Thanks.


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## narkelion

If not otherwise signaled, 130 is the maximum allowed speed.

In many tunnels on A24 for example speed limit is 110 just for the last 100 meters of the tunnel, but 130 for the rest.

Green rectangle with white number is just the advised speed, it's not a limit.


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## darko06

Thanks.


----------



## darko06

My compliments go to the concessioner of A23 (Autostrada Pontebbana): the tunnels are wide and clean. At the most of the carriageway in Udine direction there is Asfalto Drenante. How contrary for example to Croatia, where at the Dalmatina Motorway (A1) there is speed limit of only 80 kms in all tunnels! Go Italy!


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## darko06

Excuse me, A24 is? A few years ago I was driving at the Autostrada di Brennero, and there is 110 limit, tunnels included, but it seems that the Autostrada di Brennero is a bit narrower than the Autostrada Pontebbana?

EDIT: Next compliments go to the Polizia Stradale. In Italy, all the way from Tarvisio to Trieste, no truck, was it Romanian or German, tried to overtake another truck or trailer. How contrary from Slovenia, where from Sežana to Ljubljana there is Texas. In Slovenia truck drivers do what they want to do (sorry Verso, but this is the hard truth!).


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## Suburbanist

darko06 said:


> Excuse me, A24 is? A few years ago I was driving at the Autostrada di Brennero, and there is 110 limit, tunnels included, but it seems that the Autostrada di Brennero is a bit narrower than the Autostrada Pontebbana?


A24 is Roma - L'Aquila = Teramo (near A14), via the Gran Sasso tunnels.


----------



## darko06

I see. Thanks.


----------



## hofburg

darko06 said:


> Excuse me, A24 is? A few years ago I was driving at the Autostrada di Brennero, and there is 110 limit, tunnels included, but it seems that the Autostrada di Brennero is a bit narrower than the Autostrada Pontebbana?
> 
> EDIT: Next compliments go to the Polizia Stradale. In Italy, all the way from Tarvisio to Trieste, no truck, was it Romanian or German, tried to overtake another truck or trailer. How contrary from Slovenia, where from Sežana to Ljubljana there is Texas. In Slovenia truck drivers do what they want to do (sorry Verso, but this is the hard truth!).


yeah this is for sure country related  trucks don't undertake trucks on A23 because there is not a lot of them. try driving A4, A13...

about speed limit in tunnels on A23: I actually think there should be a speed limit of 100 or 110 (except in the first two tunnels who have a shoulder lane). 130 in curvy tunnels can be dangerous if a vehicle breaks down in the middle...


----------



## g.spinoza

darko06 said:


> Excuse me, A24 is? A few years ago I was driving at the Autostrada di Brennero, and there is 110 limit, tunnels included, but it seems that the Autostrada di Brennero is a bit narrower than the Autostrada Pontebbana?
> 
> EDIT: Next compliments go to the Polizia Stradale. In Italy, all the way from Tarvisio to Trieste, no truck, was it Romanian or German, tried to overtake another truck or trailer. How contrary from Slovenia, where from Sežana to Ljubljana there is Texas. In Slovenia truck drivers do what they want to do (sorry Verso, but this is the hard truth!).


Polizia has nothing to do with that. Truck overtake ban is not enforced at all in Italy: you basically can do whatever you want.


----------



## bigic

darko06 said:


> (sorry Verso, but this is the hard truth!).


Where Verso denied this?


----------



## keber

hofburg said:


> 130 in curvy tunnels can be dangerous if a vehicle breaks down in the middle...


And 100 can't be dangerous?


----------



## hofburg

well it is less dangerous, because the stopping distance is smaller.


----------



## Verso

bigic said:


> Where Verso denied this?


He's a Croat, a bit allergic to Slovenia, and he mentions me in half of his posts as if I were an ultranationalist or something.


----------



## bigic

And do you agree with him about truck drivers in Slovenia?


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

keber said:


> And 100 can't be dangerous?


I think that on some parts of A1 between Bologna and Firenze speed limit is 90km/h.


----------



## Verso

bigic said:


> And do you agree with him about truck drivers in Slovenia?


Yep, they overtake each other quite a lot.


----------



## astey

A trip on the Autostrada dei Fiori A10, around the city of Savona.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Astey i have watched all of you're videos and i really like them.
Keep up with the good work.


----------



## g.spinoza

A really stunning aerial video of A1 Variante di Valico, almost completed

http://streampro.autostrade.it/mediaentry/webtv/2014/10/2702/file.mp4


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

A trip on A4 :




As you guys can see the A4 is really bussy on this part.


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*

_A part near Pizzo Calabro (VV)_


----------



## Karaya

g.spinoza said:


> A really stunning aerial video of A1 Variante di Valico, almost completed
> 
> http://streampro.autostrade.it/mediaentry/webtv/2014/10/2702/file.mp4


Nice. What will happen to the old motorway (the part that wont be used)? Sry, if this was answered already.


----------



## italystf

Karaya said:


> Nice. What will happen to the old motorway (the part that wont be used)? Sry, if this was answered already.











From Sasso Marconi to La Quercia the existing motorway was widened to 3x2 (with a little realignment) in 2006.
From La Quercia to Aglio there will be a completely new motorway (3x2) parallel to the old one (2x2), that will remain open to local traffic (Rioveggio, Pian del Voglio, Roncobilaccio).
From Aglio to Barberino the old motorway will be used only in northbound direction (with the median removed, it will be 4 lanes, so an extra lane to climb uphill) and a new 3-lanes carriaggeway will be built next to it for southbound traffic.
Everything will (hopefully) be completed within 2015.


----------



## italystf

Karaya said:


> Nice. What will happen to the old motorway (the part that wont be used)? Sry, if this was answered already.











From Sasso Marconi to La Quercia the existing motorway was widened to 3x2 (with a little realignment) in 2006.
From La Quercia to Aglio there will be a completely new motorway (3x2) parallel to the old one (2x2), that will remain open to local traffic (Rioveggio, Pian del Voglio, Roncobilaccio).
From Aglio to Barberino the old motorway will be used only in northbound direction (with the median removed, it will be 4 lanes, so an extra lane to climb uphill) and a new 3-lanes carriaggeway will be built next to it for southbound traffic.
Everything will (hopefully) be completed within 2015.
The section Bologna - Sasso Marconi was already widened to 3x2 long ago. The section Barberino - Incisa is planned to be upgraded to 3x2 too.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Usually statistics collected by the national statistical agencies use the same methodology within the EU, otherwise it would be difficult to compare countries. 

But the registration of those statistics may be poor. In fact, it was even criticized in the Netherlands (mainly the number of injuries).


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

I think that you can see more people wearing helmets in Italy,then in Greece for example.


----------



## IThomas

> Rome, October 30 - The government's so-called Unblock Italy decree has passed to the Senate after winning definitive approval in the Lower House on Thursday. The decree aims to free up billions of euros in funding for infrastructure projects, including new highways, railways, and major airport renovations, and help the economy. It cleared the House with 278 votes in favour, 161 against and 7 abstentions. The measure needs to win final approval before it times out on November 11.
> 
> source


..


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Fab87 said:


> Don't put Italy together with Greece. They don't wear helmets on scooters, for instance.
> 
> Some 10-12 years ago Italy started to enforce some basic safety measures (seat-belts, helmets) and Greece didn't quite do the same. Greece on the other hand is one of the strictest places when it comes to driving under the influence.
> 
> As for the reasons behind that low fatality rate in Italy, I agree with what has been said. Watching out and checking what the others are doing is part of italian common sense. For instance, pedestrians don't cross the streets without looking. We have rules, but they are somehow flexible and we tend to interpret them in the most convenient way for every situation. And quite often people help each other instead of sticking to the rules.
> 
> Plus, speeding is severely punished. And we have speed checks quite everywhere.



I still remember a short trip to Stockholm a few years back. My wife had to attend a conference on the Saturday so I went exploring the city on my own. A few weeks after a minor accident I overwalked and my left knee was hurting. I begun crossing a broad avenue and a guy at the far end stopped at the pedestrian crossing. I waved him to go "it'll take bloody ages before I limp there! Feel free to go"

No way. He waited for me


----------



## g.spinoza

WalkTheWorld said:


> I still remember a short trip to Stockholm a few years back. My wife had to attend a conference on the Saturday so I went exploring the city on my own. A few weeks after a minor accident I overwalked and my left knee was hurting. I begun crossing a broad avenue and a guy at the far end stopped at the pedestrian crossing. I waved him to go "it'll take bloody ages before I limp there! Feel free to go"
> 
> No way. He waited for me


You already said that:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=118660231&postcount=7656


----------



## Fab87

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> I think that you can see more people wearing helmets in Italy,then in Greece for example.


Where I live i haven't seen a single person riding a scooter without wearing a helmet in the last -say- 10 years.


----------



## Fab87

verreme said:


> But reckless overtaking (in two-lane roads with little visibility) is very common in Italy. And stuff such as dawdling between two lanes of a motorway without looking at your mirrors. Or driving 50 km/h on the hard shoulder with the cell phone in hand.
> 
> I'm also shocked by the Italian fatality rates. Maybe you have another criteria to count road victims, such as not including the dead 24 hours after the accident, or not including accidents on the way to work.


No, 30 days.


----------



## g.spinoza

Only 50 m left to dig for the second Frejus tunnel. Next 17 November the tunnel will be fully dug: it is expected to be opened in 2019. It will be the longest double bore tunnel in Europe.

http://www.lastampa.it/2014/10/31/c...solo-metri-q2ksq6kokH33ycSWDapEsL/pagina.html (in Italian)


----------



## narkelion

Is that the A32 final tunnel? 

T4?

I didn't know they were going to bore the second tunnel.

I'm a bit sad though: my beloved Gran Sasso will loose it's primacy.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Yep, it's that one.
Works were started in 2011.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Only 50 m left to dig for the second Frejus tunnel. Next 17 November the tunnel will be fully dug: it is expected to be opened in 2019. It will be the longest double bore tunnel in Europe.
> 
> http://www.lastampa.it/2014/10/31/c...solo-metri-q2ksq6kokH33ycSWDapEsL/pagina.html (in Italian)


The Fehmarnbelt tunnel, connecting Germany with Denmark, planned to open in 2021, will be 17,6km long.
I read in the Norweigian thread that they're going to build a double bore tunnel more than 20km long! I don't remember further details like the location and the planning opening date.
EDIT: It's the Boknafjord tunnel, between Stavanger and Bergen. It will open around 2020 and will be 26,5km long, so more than twice the Frejus tunnel! It will be also longer than the Laerdaltunnel (24,5km) that is currently the longest road tunnel in the world, although with a single tube.


----------



## Nikolaj

italystf said:


> The Fehmarnbelt tunnel, connecting Germany with Denmark, planned to open in 2021, will be 17,6km long.
> I read in the Norweigian thread that they're going to build a double bore tunnel more than 20km long! I don't remember further details like the location and the planning opening date.
> EDIT: It's the Boknafjord tunnel, between Stavanger and Bergen. It will open around 2020 and will be 26,5km long, so more than twice the Frejus tunnel! It will be also longer than the Laerdaltunnel (24,5km) that is currently the longest road tunnel in the world, although with a single tube.


Fehmarnbelt tunnel will be an immersed tunnel - not a bore tunnel.


----------



## brick84

*SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta, Sicily*


_The new stretch near Canicattì (AG) of firs lot._


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*


_New 1.5 km stretch opened traffic in the second 'Macrolotto' near Lagonegro (PZ)_


----------



## keber

narkelion said:


> I didn't know they were going to bore the second tunnel.
> 
> I'm a bit sad though: my beloved Gran Sasso will loose it's primacy.


Still new Frejus bore will not be the same as original one but smaller. This is clearly evident on the picture of La Stampa news article.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ It should be 8 m wide, while the current one is 9 m. Smaller but not that much.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is it a new traffic tube or escape tube?


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is it a new traffic tube or escape tube?


It was conceived as an escape tube, but it has been converted to traffic tube. 8 m is kind of a compromise between the two.


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is it a new traffic tube or escape tube?


New traffic tube, it will carry 1 traffic lane only.

Several NGOs and some local governments opposed it on the bandwagon of "traffic will kill our valley", but people seem to forget the tunnel carries less than 4000 vehicles/day on average.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> New traffic tube, it will carry 1 traffic lane only.
> 
> Several NGOs and some local governments opposed it on the bandwagon of "traffic will kill our valley", but people seem to forget the tunnel carries less than 4000 vehicles/day on average.


At 40€ per transit, I bet this figures won't increase much.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Suburbanist said:


> New traffic tube, it will carry 1 traffic lane only.
> 
> Several NGOs and some local governments opposed it on the bandwagon of "traffic will kill our valley", but people seem to forget the tunnel carries less than 4000 vehicles/day on average.


Why one traffic lane ?


----------



## narkelion

Suburbanist said:


> New traffic tube, it will carry 1 traffic lane only.
> 
> Several NGOs and some local governments opposed it on the bandwagon of "traffic will kill our valley", but people seem to forget the tunnel carries less than 4000 vehicles/day on average.


1 lane only?

Then Gran Sasso mantains its record of longest double-lane double-bore tunnel.

:banana::banana::banana:


----------



## Suburbanist

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Why one traffic lane ?


First, the plan was to dig a safety tube only. Then, the idea emerged to use the safety tube as a traffic lane, to separate the flows.

Building 2 lanes and doubling traffic capacity would be highly problematic, it would need more environmental studies and what not, due to bureaucracy. 

The Frejus tunnel is rarely congested anyway (well, the tunnel itself is never congested since they use the toll plazas to control the flow).


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Fab87 said:


> Don't put Italy together with Greece. They don't wear helmets on scooters, for instance.
> 
> Some 10-12 years ago Italy started to enforce some basic safety measures (seat-belts, helmets) and Greece didn't quite do the same. Greece on the other hand is one of the strictest places when it comes to driving under the influence.
> 
> As for the reasons behind that low fatality rate in Italy, I agree with what has been said. Watching out and checking what the others are doing is part of italian common sense. For instance, pedestrians don't cross the streets without looking. We have rules, but they are somehow flexible and we tend to interpret them in the most convenient way for every situation. And quite often people help each other instead of sticking to the rules.
> 
> Plus, speeding is severely punished. And we have speed checks quite everywhere.


Enforcing control measures and sanctions helped to cut the fatalities of 50% in last 10 years


----------



## Suburbanist

TUTOR was very helpful for highway traffic safety. It just takes out the incentive for speeding altogether (and overall speed limits in Italy are not arbitrarily slow, most of the time), contrary to fixed-point speed traps which can be actually dangerous as people slam the brakes nearby and then accelerate after passed through.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ It should be 8 m wide, while the current one is 9 m. Smaller but not that much.


This is the section










http://www.sitaftunnelfrejus.it/progetto/caratteristiche-opera/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Suburbanist said:


> Building 2 lanes and doubling traffic capacity would be highly problematic, it would need more environmental studies and what not, due to bureaucracy.


What would the actual environmental impact be? The entire project is underground. 

The 'induced demand' argument doesn't fly because 1) the current tunnel is not congested and 2) the high tolls caps demand. 

Though I agree the low traffic volumes don't require four lanes anyway. I'm happy with the current solution. It will make the tunnel much safer.

There is another single-tube tunnel on A43 in France, west of Modane. But it is very wide, basically three lanes wide, where the center lane is striped off and acts like a buffer. It felt much safer than opposing traffic like the Gotthard Tunnel.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ That's the same thing they're going to do with Col di Tenda tunnel, also Italy/France. They're digging another tube to separate fluxes, 1 lane per tube.


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> What would the actual environmental impact be? The entire project is underground.
> 
> The 'induced demand' argument doesn't fly because 1) the current tunnel is not congested and 2) the high tolls caps demand.
> 
> Though I agree the low traffic volumes don't require four lanes anyway. I'm happy with the current solution. It will make the tunnel much safer.


I'm not entirely sure on the qirks of French environmental law, but it has something to do with providing capacity that are then just not enabled vs. not providing increased capacity. 

This being said... the section of a tunnel with r = 5m is 56% larger than a tunnel with r = 4m...

Another benefit they are touting is to make ventilation much simpler and easier to manage in case of fire.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

I think that one traffic lane in a tunnel is not so safe.


----------



## brick84

brick84 said:


> *A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*
> 
> 
> _New 1.5 km stretch opened traffic in the second 'Macrolotto' near Lagonegro (PZ)_


----------



## Coccodrillo

Following the Mont Blanc fire it has been decided to improve safety in many European tunnels, mainly boring safety tubes where they did not exist.

For the Fréjus tunnel a ~4 m diametre tube was initially planned, but it was then decided (I think under pressure from firefighters) to increase the diametre so as to allow two fire trucks to cross each other at very low speed. The decision to open the tube to traffic was taken soon after, so the result is a tube which is big compared to normal safety tunnels but small compared to normal traffic tunnels.

Ecologist groups have nothing to do here. Usually they either oppose road projects and approve rail projects, or oppose both. On the Italian side of the Fréjus instead they oppose a rail project but say nothing about twinning the road tunnel.

I don't know how will be operated in the future the tunnel, but there aren't many options: either 1+1 or 2+1 (with two lanes towards Italy in the existing tube). I'm not aware of plans to renovate the old tube, but I would not be surprised if it will be closed for refurbishment with alternate traffic in the other.

As other said, because of the very high tolls it is unlikely the new tube will attract more traffic, however as tolls of the Mont Blanc tunnel are similar, it is possible that some trucks will switch to the Fréjus instead (same tolls, similar distance on long trips, but likely less strict safety rules).

The second Tenda tunnel has a different history: it was opened in 1882 and at 3182 m was likely the longest road tunnel of its time, a time when motorized road vehicles practically did not exist. It can either handle two-way traffic or cars, or alternate traffic of lower trucks (under 3.8 m or so). After the second single lane (+ shoulder) tube will be opened the first one will be eidened to allow higher vehicles.



ChrisZwolle said:


> What would the actual environmental impact be? The entire project is underground.


Environmental impact of tunnels include subsidence of surface areas (usually in case of urban bored tunnels, like subways), modification of underground water flows with drying up of springs, production of big quantities of bored material that has to be put somewhere. The first two problems appeared during the construction of the high speed rail line and the Variante di Valico between Bologna and Florence.



ChrisZwolle said:


> There is another single-tube tunnel on A43 in France, west of Modane. But it is very wide, basically three lanes wide, where the center lane is striped off and acts like a buffer. It felt much safer than opposing traffic like the Gotthard Tunnel.


The Orelle tunnel was initially operated as 2+1 as many steeper roads, however for safety reasons (or safety paranoia?) it was converted to 1+1 with an empty lane in the middle.

The Somport tunnel was designed as a two way traffic tunnel, and that's why it has a wide painted separation line.

The Gotthard tunnel instead has been planned as a double bore tunnel with just one tube built initially, that's one of the reasons it is narrower, has emergency stop bays more often southbound (every 750 m, instead of 1500 m northbound), and initially had lightings only on one side.



Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> I think that one traffic lane in a tunnel is not so safe.


Why should it be less safe? Theoretically, it should be slightly safer, as side crashes are impossible.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ People from Susa valley (the one crossed by A32 and Frejus tunnel) are afraid of asbestos pollution, since the mountains around Bardonecchia and Susa are full of it.


----------



## italystf

I've read that there is an "Alps Convention", signed by Italy and France, that forbids to increase the capacity of roads that cross the Alpine watershed (because, according to them, if the Frejus tunnel will get 4 lanes, traffic will suddenly increase to unsustainable numbers, since people like paying 40€ for nothing :nuts.
Hopefully, this agreement will be scrapped one day and the Frejus tunnel will be easily upgraded to 4 lanes (8 meters is just enough to accomodate two standard 3.75m lanes).

I think we should take care of our planet for our future, but those pseudo-environmentalists always puzzle me. The only serious concern there is absestos pollution, that will equally happen whether the tunnel will have 1 or 2 lanes. It's quite ironical that many people who fear the increase of traffic in Susa valley are also anti-HSR. Isn't the train an effective method to pull goods' traffic away from roads?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

italystf said:


> Isn't the train an effective method to pull goods' traffic away from roads?


In the mind of politicians; yes, in reality, not so much.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Alpine Convention (which I think is not binding, as it is not an Italian, French or European law): http://www.alpconv.org/en/convention/protocols/Documents/transportprotocolEN.pdf

A 2+2 Fréjus tunnel, if it existed, would likely not attract new traffic, but maybe existing traffic passing now through the Mont Blanc.

The Fréjus tunnel cannot "be easily upgraded to 4 lanes", *because the second tube is too small.* The drawing in post 7686 shows that the carriageway is 5.73 m wide, that means a 3.75 m lane and a 2 m shoulder, enough to allow a very slow moving truck to overtake/cross a stopped truck, but not to allow two lanes, even in the same direction. In the following PDFs the dimensions of the two tubes can be clearly seen:

http://www.razel-bec.com/documents/mpd_19/plaquette_frejus.pdf

http://www.aftes.asso.fr/doc_gd_public/article_fichier/T224-166a168Frejus.pdf



italystf said:


> Isn't the train an effective method to pull goods' traffic away from roads?


Partially yes, if one knows how to use them (for example, not closing freight yards receiving heavy steel loads and increasing electricity costs like in Italy).


----------



## hofburg

ChrisZwolle said:


> In the mind of politicians; yes, in reality, not so much.


why not?


----------



## Suburbanist

hofburg said:


> why not?


Trains and trucks cater only to partially overlapping markets. They are not perfect substitutes like Volvo truck or SAAB truck.


----------



## Coccodrillo

According to surveys on the Gotthard motorway, many trucks are travelling for hundreds of km.

Instead of towing these trailers one by one, frequent long-distance shuttles could replace them.

Below is a Modalohr train, that allow the transport of any kind of semitrailer, even those not designed to be loaded by cranes.

They run on the Perpignan-Luxembourg route, other routes are planned in France, and other possible routes might be Milan-Rhein Ruhr, Verona-Netherlands, and such.

There is a route also between Turin and Chambery, around 175 km, but it is heavily subsidized and short. It also carries some tractors and their drivers.


----------



## italystf

Coccodrillo said:


> The Alpine Convention (which I think is not binding, as it is not an Italian, French or European law): http://www.alpconv.org/en/convention/protocols/Documents/transportprotocolEN.pdf
> 
> A 2+2 Fréjus tunnel, if it existed, would likely not attract new traffic, but maybe existing traffic passing now through the Mont Blanc.
> 
> The Fréjus tunnel cannot "be easily upgraded to 4 lanes", *because the second tube is too small.* The drawing in post 7686 shows that the carriageway is 5.73 m wide, that means a 3.75 m lane and a 2 m shoulder, enough to allow a very slow moving truck to overtake/cross a stopped truck, but not to allow two lanes, even in the same direction. In the following PDFs the dimensions of the two tubes can be clearly seen:
> 
> http://www.razel-bec.com/documents/mpd_19/plaquette_frejus.pdf
> 
> http://www.aftes.asso.fr/doc_gd_public/article_fichier/T224-166a168Frejus.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Partially yes, if one knows how to use them (for example, not closing freight yards receiving heavy steel loads and increasing electricity costs like in Italy).


Sorry, I didn't look at the chart and I though that 8m was the carriaggeway's width.


----------



## brick84

*Highway A19 Palermo-Catania*

_viaduct near Enna_












by Bill Dutfield on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Pedemontana*

New imagery of the western Pedemontana, dated 27 August 2014.

A8-Pedemontana









A9-Pedemontana


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A4 Ticino River Bridge*

2009-2014


----------



## g.spinoza

This new Ticino bridge is something I'll never understand. The motorway was perfectly fine the way it was before: officially they moved the bridge because the wanted the HSR and the motorway to be as close as possible in order to reduce the unusable land in between... but I suspect it was built out of corruption.


----------



## keber

I believe that the bridge was pretty old now and surely it needed renovation or expansion at least. New bridge may be more expensive (that is not always) but when you consider traffic obstruction during renovation it's not that expensive anymore.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> I believe that the bridge was pretty old now and surely it needed renovation or expansion at least. New bridge may be more expensive (that is not always) but when you consider traffic obstruction during renovation it's not that expensive anymore.


It needed expansion, it was 2x2 while the whole Turin-Milan A4 is being widened to 2x3. The bridge wasn't particularly old, not more than any other bridge on that stretch that's been widened on site.


----------



## keber

Wasn't there a talk of a 4+4 expansion of A4 between Milano and Novara? In that case new bridge would be absolutely necessary as on site renovation wouldn't be feasible.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Wasn't there a talk of a 4+4 expansion of A4 between Milano and Novara? In that case new bridge would be absolutely necessary as on site renovation wouldn't be feasible.


No, only between Marcallo-Mesero and Ghisolfa toll booth, 16 km total. And these aren't just talks, works are ongoing.


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> This new Ticino bridge is something I'll never understand. The motorway was perfectly fine the way it was before: officially they moved the bridge because the wanted the HSR and the motorway to be as close as possible in order to reduce the unusable land in between... but I suspect it was built out of corruption.


All bridges have been rebuild. The old one was scrappy and not fit for 2x3 regular lanes, not considering the bridges on the Naviglio Grande.
In my opinion they should have build a 4-5km long tunnel, passing below the river and restoring a bit of the Ticino River Park to his destination. Expensive? Sure!
No, not the same should have been done with the railway. It's perfect as it is.
BTW: another reason for moving it southway from the old position was to lower the impact on the town of Bernate Ticino.


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> A59: Casnate con Bernate – Como 12 9.4km (2010 to Late 2014) – project – map
> A60: Azzate Buguggiate (A8) – Cantello 12 11.6km (2010 to Late 2014) – project – map
> A36: Cassano Magnago (A8) – Lomazzo (A9) 12 15km (February 2010 to >= 2014) – project – map





g.spinoza said:


> These three motorways should open in January 2015.
> http://www.laprovinciadivarese.it/stories/Economia/tangenziale-aperta-a-gennaio-2015_1087186_11/
> http://www.corrierecomo.it/index.ph...tura-a-gennaio&catid=257:reportage&Itemid=131
> (Italian)


Quoted from the new motorway projects thread.


----------



## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> All bridges have been rebuild. The old one was scrappy and not fit for 2x3 regular lanes, not considering the bridges on the Naviglio Grande.


Yes, I know that. When I said "enlarged on site" I meant that the bridges are still in the same place, not like the Ticino bridge which has been reconstructed in a different location.



> BTW: another reason for moving it southway from the old position was to lower the impact on the town of Bernate Ticino.


To me this motivation seems rather weak.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They also built a tunnel there, which seems a bit excessive. A noise barrier would do just fine, the nearest houses are more than 100 meters from the motorway.


----------



## pccvspw999

The alternative was to build the railroad beneath the old motorway like it was done on the rest of the stretch, but the impact was then to high. So the environmetal prescriptions for both, railway and motorway, were to be shifted.
So far the motorway bridge had to be rebuild anyway, it was decided to do so.
"Weak argument"? Probably.
"Motorway tunnel excessive"? Sure.
I'm a fan of "infrastructure improving", that means every time You have do work on an infrastructure, You shall improve it from all point of view, as far as You can. Nowadays there are not many new infrastructures to be build, but there's a lot to be enhanced. We work and live to make everything, slowly but steadily, better and more reliable. Also roads and railways.
So what has been done, fits perfectly to this, of course to less as I aimed a tunnel below river.


----------



## keber

Funny that on Google maps we see new route and old satellite photo and on GE old route with new satellite photo.

Also on connecting SS336dir I can see numerous cut&covers even in the middle of forests. Probably the locals are quite big NIMBY's maybe therefore are such expensive objects.


----------



## Suburbanist

keber said:


> Also on connecting SS336dir I can see numerous cut&covers even in the middle of forests. Probably the locals are quite big NIMBY's maybe therefore are such expensive objects.


The toll access gate plaza and the nearby lanes are one of a kind


----------



## italystf

keber said:


> Also on connecting SS336dir I can see numerous cut&covers even in the middle of forests. Probably the locals are quite big NIMBY's maybe therefore are such expensive objects.


Wildlife crossings. Like on your A2 Ljubjana-HR border.


----------



## keber

Apparently there have to be really large hordes of animals there to justify such large number, length and density of those crossings.


----------



## Verso

Suburbanist said:


> The toll access gate plaza and the nearby lanes are one of a kind


That expressway's name is also one of a kind - _Superstrada Malpensa 2000_. :shifty:


----------



## brick84

*SS 106 in Basilicata region*

_Over 5 km stretch of 'Variante di Nova Siri' opened today_
























































http://www.lestradedellinformazione...ografiche/picsfotografica.2272.98.1.12.1.html


----------



## brick84

*Highway A3 Napoli-Reggio Calabria*

_'Macrolotto 6'_

06/11/2014

taken by _joulis _


----------



## g.spinoza

Last wall of second Frejus tunnel was torn down today at 11:36 am. Photogallery on newspaper La Repubblica


----------



## javimix19

brick84 said:


> *Summary of works on A3 Napoli-Reggio Calabria on November 2014*


I've read somewhere (sorry, I don't remember) that upgrading sections of A3 motorway have some problems of construction. 

- Is this the most controversial project (speaking about roads) in Italy?
It costs a lot of money and there are concerns about involvement of some illegal "organizations".


----------



## g.spinoza

I wouldn't say "controversial". Almost everybody agree that the existing road wasn't sufficient any more. Some thought that it had to be replaced by a coastal motorway, easier to build and to mantain. Of course there's the problem of mafia, but this involves more or less every construction in Italy, not only in the South.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Has SS 212 from Pesco Sannita to Innesto opened to traffic? It was planned to open in October earlier.





g.spinoza said:


> It will open next 13 November, at 11:30.
> 
> http://www.gazzettabenevento.it/Sito2009/dettagliocomunicato.php?Id=74398


You were curious about this, Chris...

9,2 km of SS 212 "della Val Fortore" opened today 17 November. I suppose the inauguration was postponed due to bad weather.

http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/notizia/100014111799004 (Italian)


----------



## g.spinoza

Astaldi SpA supplanted DIRPA S.C.A.R.L. as major contracting company for the completion of SS 76 "della Val d'Esino" and SS 318 "di Valfabbrica" (expressway Perugia-Ancona), within the framework of Project Quadrilatero. Works were stopped for many months because of DIRPA financial problems. 

Works are due to be completed in 2015 for SS 318 and in 2017 for SS 76.

http://www.corriereadriatico.it/index.php?p=articolo&id=1016630&sez=MARCHE


----------



## italystf

The 3rd lane on A4 between Quarto d'Altino (junction A57-Passante) and San Donà di Piave (18,5km) was inaugurated today, although part of it had been already opened a couple of months ago.








http://ilpiccolo.gelocal.it/trieste...tto-tra-quarto-d-altino-e-san-dona-1.10328245


----------



## definitivo

italystf said:


> The 3rd lane on A4 between Quarto d'Altino (junction A57-Passante) and San Donà di Piave (18,5km) was inaugurated today, although part of it had been already opened a couple of months ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://ilpiccolo.gelocal.it/trieste...tto-tra-quarto-d-altino-e-san-dona-1.10328245


...l'equipe with unavoidable El Padre...


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

I thought that the wholle section of A4 that was under widening process was completed.Is there anny section of A4 which is still under widening process?


----------



## g.spinoza

No. Works haven't started anywhere else.


----------



## italystf

Estimated opening dates:
Portogruaro (A28) - Palmanova (A23): *2025*
San Donà di Piave - Portogruaro (A28) and Palmanova (A23) - Villesse (A34): *2031*
Shame on Autovie Venete hno:, few years ago they stated that the whole route would have been upgraded to 3x2 by 2017.


----------



## italystf

A landslide is threatening a viaduct of A26 near Genoa. The motorway is still open and the motorway company says there's no danger because pillars are very deep, but the photo looks like very scary.








http://www.today.it/cronaca/frana-pilone-autostrada-a26-genova.html


----------



## verreme

definitivo said:


> ...l'equipe with unavoidable El Padre...


It looks so much like 1960s Spain -the obiquitous priests blessing all new stuff. Fortunately there's no dictator, nor grey party officials with raincoats and sunglasses.


----------



## Luki_SL

italystf said:


> Portogruaro (A28) - Palmanova (A23): *2025*
> San Donà di Piave - Portogruaro (A28) and Palmanova (A23) - Villesse (A34): *2031*


9 years to upgrade about 50kms of motorway (Portogruaro (A28) - Palmanova (A23) ? Is it joke?


----------



## g.spinoza

Luki_SL said:


> 9 years to upgrade about 50kms of motorway (Portogruaro (A28) - Palmanova (A23) ? Is it joke?


No, because they're not starting right now.


----------



## Samply

Right now meaning neither this year, nor the next, or even the one after that 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Eddard Stark

I think it just means they are going to do one pièce at a time.

Which makes dense: it's not an emergency and like this it's probably auto financed


----------



## Samply

Yeah, perhaps from 2020 onwards. Those dates mean the project has ended up in some dude's drawer, whoever comes after him will have to decide what to do with it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## italystf

Italian motorway network in 1967


----------



## brick84

*Highway Siracusa-Gela, Sicily*

_Works next to new costruction yard near Ispica (RG)_


location:











Updates


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## brick84

*SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta, Sicily*

_Render of Second lot_


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

I think that Italy opened the biggest number of motorways from 1967 to 1975.


----------



## italystf

I decided to start a long-term project to introduce in the Italian Wikipedia the lists of all provincial roads (SP) in Italy. About a year ago I created the lists for the provinces of Udine, Pordenone and Gorizia (other lists you can see have been created by other users). The problem is that many Italian provinces don't publish the list of their provincial roads, so many of these wikilinks will stay red (i.e. empty) for a while.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Strade_provinciali_in_Italia


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## brick84

*Highway A19 Catania-Palermo*

Time laps


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*


New stretch with 'Paci' and 'Pilone' tunnel opened to traffic today in 'Macrolotto' IV between Scilla and Santa Trada in province of Reggio Calabria.


----------



## g.spinoza

*A4 - Variante di Bernate Ticino*

The "variante di Bernate Ticino" (new alignment of A4 with a new bridge over Ticino river) is complete and open in both directions, in a 2x3 + emergency lanes configuration. I didn't find news online but I drove there yesterday, and the configuration seems definitive (white lines).


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ Also the speed limit is 130km/h which shall confirm that the alignment is definitive.


----------



## italystf

A31 Santa Margherita d'Adige - Badia Polesine (18km) opened today:








http://mattinopadova.gelocal.it/pad...co-sud-aperti-due-caselli-padovani-1.10502962

The entire A31 south will be completed by May 2015.


----------



## Suburbanist

A neat corporate video of the Val di Sambro tunnel (A1 - Variante di Valico), with some neat aerials and close-up views of tunnel excavation works (+ "how good it is to work for us" shots).


----------



## sponge_bob

I was going to ask about the Variante and then you came along, is it still scheduled to open in H2 2015?


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

sponge_bob said:


> I was going to ask about the Variante and then you came along, is it still scheduled to open in H2 2015?


It should be opened in 2015.
Just follow this thread and you'll know:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1687231


----------



## brick84

*Highway A58 "Tangenziale Est Esterna Milano (TEEM)"*

_*Update works on October 2014*_


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

A1 Bologna-Firenze


----------



## friedrichstrasse

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> I think that Italy opened the biggest number of motorways from 1967 to 1975.


You can find the maps of the network during the years here 

Example:

- green: motorways built before 1970
- red: motorways built between 1970 and 1975


----------



## brick84

Today the last stretch of VI 'Macrolotto' of A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria, in province of Reggio Calabria, opened to traffic (almost 4 km).

Here's the video:

http://www.stradeanas.tv/#
(22/12/2014)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It seems that 95 kilometers of new motorway opened to traffic in Italy in 2014.

This would make 2014 the best year for new autostrade since 1978.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^Yes, A35 alone was 63 km. It's a record quite difficult to beat: next year Variante di Valico is due, some 50 km or so.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> It seems that 95 kilometers of new motorway opened to traffic in Italy in 2014.


In addition, 22km of expressway(-like) roads opened in 2014.



g.spinoza said:


> SS 106 Gioiosa East-Canne *should* open somewhere *between 15 November and 15 December*. The other SS 106 stretch, Gioiosa East - Marina di Gioiosa features some tunnels which delayed completion to mid-2015.


What's about opening of 8km SS106 expressway? Any updated estimated opening date?


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> What's about opening of 8km SS106 expressway? Any updated estimated opening date?


I cannot find any news, certainly it's still to be opened. One possibility is that they will open the entire section in mid-2015, even if part of it is already completed.
On Openstreetmaps, also SS106 Locri - Ardore Marina is marked as U/C.


----------



## MichiH

italystf said:


> I cannot find any news, certainly it's still to be opened. One possibility is that they will open the entire section in mid-2015, even if part of it is already completed.
> On Openstreetmaps, also SS106 Locri - Ardore Marina is marked as U/C.


Thanks. The latter is not mentioned on the project page, isn't it? But the map shows it completed (green, 16.9km)!? Completed but not in service? :?


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> Thanks. The latter is not mentioned on the project page, isn't it? But the map shows it completed (green, 16.9km)!? Completed but not in service? :?


This map is inaccurate. If only 1km is open, it shows the entire lot open.


----------



## brick84

*Video by joulis about 6th 'Macrolotto' of A3 'Salerno-Reggio Calabria'*


----------



## brick84

*Highway A29 Palermo-Mazara del Vallo, Sicily*

_near Cinisi (PA)_











by Zù Palidda on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Snow?


----------



## g.spinoza

It should be snowing in Turin also...


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

A3 is going to be great motorway once it's renovation gets completed.


----------



## italystf

Updated OSM-based map of A3 (December 2014):
Green: completed
Orange: U/C
Red: planned

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Lavori_in_corso_A3_dicembre_2014.png


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> Contract was finally signed for the construction of lots 6,7 and 8 of A18 in Sicily. Lot 8 deadline is on 2017, but lots 6 and 7 are due to be completed at the unrealistic deadline of 31st December 2015. So unrealistic that the concessionaire estimates 24 months of work of a viaduct and 35 for the other one...


Have the works on A18 lot 8, Scicli-Modica been started yet?


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ That should be lot 9 and no, it is still on hold.


----------



## javimix19

italystf said:


> Updated OSM-based map of A3 (December 2014):


Thanks, it appears like most of the route is finally upgraded or upgrading.


----------



## italystf

javimix19 said:


> Thanks, it appears like most of the route is finally upgraded or upgrading.


Yes, although red parts will take ages to be completed, possibly even as late as 2020. Currently, the most problematic stretches to drive are the orange ones, since they are 1+1 due to roadworks. Red sections are still in their original shape (2+2 with no shoulders).


----------



## Nexis




----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*

New stretch on VI 'Macrolotto' opened 2 weeks ago


----------



## javimix19

^^

Short stretch but with many tunnels. Wonderful.


----------



## brick84

^^

some pics:


_Piale tunnel_




















_North carryway at km 431_





























_Monacena tunnel_











source: http://www.lestradedellinformazione...ografiche/picsfotografica.2284.98.1.12.1.html


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Is there any new section of motorways or expressways that should be U/C soon ?


----------



## MichiH

^^ Next A18 lot.


----------



## Luki_SL

A1 - Variante de Valico - newsletter : http://www.autostrade.it/documents/10279/41501/newsletter-43.pdf


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ It's in Italian, but you don't miss anything by not reading it. It doesn't update about status any more, it just tells uninteresting stories about workers and other works in the territory.
Sadly, it seems that completion percentages went back since the last update - more works to do. I'm not putting my money on a 2015 opening date.


----------



## italystf

This bridge on SS121 Palermo - Agrigento was opened 10 days ago:








http://www.ansa.it/sicilia/notizie/...nno_bcc4825a-5020-47a4-a92c-55153fbc4ab5.html


----------



## g.spinoza

Last 23rd December a 1km stretch of SS 121 "Palermo-Agrigento", in Sicily, was opened. It is a 1+1 new road on a difficult mountain stretch.
By 1st January, viaduct Scorciavacche 2 was already in these conditions:









From newspaper La Stampa:
http://www.lastampa.it/2015/01/04/italia/cronache/palermo-crolla-il-viadotto-dieci-giorni-dopo-linaugurazione-renzi-il-responsabile-pagher-xLJNqHLqRd4S5owcPC5w3H/pagina.html

EDIT: Ooops, italystf was faster


----------



## Stravinsky

g.spinoza said:


> Tecnis from Catania, run by Mimmo Costanzo.


How can you trust a company run by a guy named Mimmo?


----------



## italystf

Stravinsky said:


> How can you trust a company run by a guy named Mimmo?


His real name is Domenico. Mimmo is a sort of diminutive nickname for Domenico, often used in Southern Italy.


----------



## BE0GRAD

pccvspw999 said:


> ^^ "Only a landslide"??? Of an artificial, men-made embankment? These are made to be slide-safe!! That man is kidding! it's a joke, can't be true!
> You may expect a landslide from a natural relief, but not from something you have build to be proofen safe.
> 
> I'm speechless....


Looks like they've made the embankment with inadequate adhesion and/or internal friction.


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## Suburbanist

As long as the pillars are intact, this shouldn't be difficult to correct.

Worst case scenario involves bridging (instead of filling up with earth) the gap.

A real very serious landslide would push the pillars of the viaduct off place.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

I know that it's little bit off topic,but i just found this picture:








I think that the name of this street is "Riva del Mandracchio" i don't speak Italian,so i don't know.Anyway this picture was taken in May 2014 by my father


----------



## Kanadzie

river of mandrakes? 

Just be careful to stay away from the wine lest you hit one of those bloody bollards, yikes... look at the Seicento, if you had a Golf you'd have one tire on the white line and the mirror knocked off by bollard...


----------



## italystf

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> I know that it's little bit off topic,but i just found this picture:
> 
> I think that the name of this street is "Riva del Mandracchio" i don't speak Italian,so i don't know.Anyway this picture was taken in May 2014 by my father


Riva: seaside
Mandracchio: little harbour
"Le Rive" (the seaside) is used to refer to the whole seaside in front of central Trieste.
https://www.google.it/maps/dir/45.6533224,13.7698052/45.6455075,13.7582395/@45.645545,13.7598059,16z


----------



## g.spinoza

More problems on Sicilian highways.

Several new stretches of SS 640, which is being doubled to expressway standards, are already closed due to structural failures or other problems.

The stretch Favara-Racalmuto has been closed three months ago (a year after its completion): the tarmac was failing and now works are basically rebuilding the entire carriageway.
Between Racalmuto and Castrofilippo one viaduct, opened few months ago, is showing signs of subsidence.
Also near Canicattì Sud the new carriageway has been closed down.


----------



## Verso

Sicily will soon need a separate thread. :troll:


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

It looks that road building in Sicily has some problems.


----------



## brick84

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> It looks that _some_ road building in Sicily has _some_ problems.


Fixed.


----------



## italystf

Video about construction of 3rd lane Quarto d'Altino - San Donà di Piave on A4, completed last autumn.
http://video.gelocal.it/ilpiccolo/l...eo-la-costruzione-del-primo-lotto/37527/37615


----------



## brick84

*S.S. 115 Siracusa-Trapani*

Here near _Selinunte (TP)_












by Dan Bock on Flickr


----------



## John Maynard

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> It looks that road building in Sicily has some problems.


Yes, some Don used the materials of his own motorway construction company - paid by his friends in the Italian government - in order to build his palazzio, and sold the rest to get extra cash. Normal way of life in Italy, especially Sicily and South :lol:.


----------



## brick84

"Normal way of life in Italy"

Stereotypies.


----------



## brick84

A normale 'way' of life in Italy...


*A19 Palermo-Catania*










by Simona Corrao on Flickr


----------



## g.spinoza

Stunning landscapes and corruption are not mutually exclusive...


----------



## italystf

brick84 said:


> A normale 'way' of life in Italy...
> 
> 
> *A19 Palermo-Catania*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by Simona Corrao on Flickr


Hard shoulders are narrower than usual.


----------



## John Maynard

brick84 said:


> "Normal way of life in Italy"
> 
> Stereotypies.


Not really, this one is true indeed.

Many international NGOs, European Commission, US Department of State, Transparency International, WEF, RiskAdvisory, Business Anti-Corruption Portal, EUObserver, FT, etc. show exactly the same conclusion > Italy is the most corrupted country in all EU/AELE-EFTA (actually equally corrupted as Greece, Romania and Bulgaria) :yes:.

Furthermore, corruption in Italy particularly affects procurement process, mainly in water, *roads and railway projects*. It is one of the main problems for doing business in Italy. Particularly when you consider that "political parties are ranked as the most corrupt institution in Italy, closely followed by public officials and Parliament" as the integrity of public officials is marred by their relationships with organized crime, Mafias and businesses :applause:.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Italy
http://news.riskadvisory.net/2013/05/italy-the-state-of-corruption/
http://www.business-anti-corruption.com/country-profiles/europe-central-asia/italy/snapshot.aspx
https://euobserver.com/justice/126760
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-it-would-be-the-worlds-76th-largest-economy/
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1b1be40e-d9ea-11e3-9b6a-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3OHKdOpfC


----------



## italystf

John Maynard said:


> Not really, this one is true indeed.
> 
> Many international NGOs, European Commission, US Department of State, Transparency International, WEF, RiskAdvisory, Business Anti-Corruption Portal, EUObserver, FT, etc. show exactly the same conclusion > Italy is the most corrupted country in all EU/AELE-EFTA (actually equally corrupted as Greece, Romania and Bulgaria) .
> 
> Furthermore, corruption in Italy particularly affects procurement process, mainly in water, roads and railway projects. It is one of the main problems for doing business in Italy. Particularly when you consider that "political parties are ranked as the most corrupt institution in Italy, closely followed by public officials and Parliament" as the integrity of public officials is marred by their relationships with organized crime, Mafias and businesses .
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Italy
> http://news.riskadvisory.net/2013/05/italy-the-state-of-corruption/
> http://www.business-anti-corruption.com/country-profiles/europe-central-asia/italy/snapshot.aspx
> https://euobserver.com/justice/126760
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-it-would-be-the-worlds-76th-largest-economy/
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1b1be40e-d9ea-11e3-9b6a-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3OHKdOpfC


We know everything of that, however some people like to pretend that this problem is non-existent and a such general attitude only makes the problem less visible and thus more difficult to fight.
Some illegal practices have been radicated in politics, administrations and business for decades and are seen as "normal business practice", and sometimes don't even generate social stigma. For example if a professional tell you: "Price is X with receipt or 0,9X without receipt.", virtually everybody will chose the second option. Everybody compains about political corruption and the state that wants only to steal money from the poor, then they feel justified by stealing from the state, not realizing that more tax evasion = more tax pressure, because money are needed. When tax pressure increases because of the high evasion, more other people will be encouraged to evade taxes.
I believe that in the other side of the Alps is totally different: the state respect its citizen (with transparency and corruption being a rare and strongly prosecuted event) and citizen respect the state by abiding laws.

John Maynard you should also know that your country got a shitload of money from bank deposits of our mafosi and corrupt politicians.


----------



## keber

brick84 said:


>


Do I see correctly that old Favazzina viaducts are being slowly demolished?


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ Most or all of the dismissed viaducts and seedings are to be demolished/renatured, as far as I know. And it's good so, apart from the consideration that a different use could have been possible/augurable.


----------



## pccvspw999

friedrichstrasse said:


> Yes, for the Salerno-Reggio it was.
> For other roads (ex. Palermo-Trapani) it was a good choice.


Than these roads should not have been classified as "autostrade" and without hard shoulder lower speed limits shall apply.
If there is traffic to justify an "autostrada" it has to be build as one, if the traffic is lower, then build something else.


----------



## italystf

A58 motorway (outer eastern Milan bypass) is now almost complete, except the bridge over Lambro river. It should open in late May.
http://www.ilcittadino.it/p/notizie.../ABkh4YkF-manca_solo_completare_tassello.html


----------



## italystf

Aparently, the first (very short) stretch of the "Pedemontana Veneta" expressway (that will be completed in 2017), will open by the end of this year. It stretches from A31 to Breganze (not clear if Breganze est or Breganze ovest).








http://www.ilgiornaledivicenza.it/s...ontana_tra_un_anno_apre_il_primo_mini-tratto/


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ That's unexpected. Very little information about this road come up on the media, I thought it would lag behind and be delayed.


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> Pedemontana Veneta: Montecchio Maggiore (A4) – Thiene (A31) 23km (October 2014 to 2017) – project – map
> *Pedemontana Veneta: Thiene (A31) – Breganze 5.7km (November 2011 to 2017) – project – map*
> Pedemontana Veneta: Breganze – Marostica 9km (October 2014 to 2017) – project – map
> Pedemontana Veneta: Marostica – Rosa (SS47) 8.5km (February 2013 to 2017) – project – map
> Pedemontana Veneta: Rosa (SS47) – Mussolente/Loria 5km (October 2014 to 2017) – project – map


It's plausible, though, since works in this section started already in 2011. Since it's 5,7km, I think that the section that will open is A31 - Breganze ovest.


----------



## brick84

pccvspw999 said:


> Than these roads should not have been classified as "autostrade" and without hard shoulder lower speed limits shall apply.
> If there is traffic to justify an "autostrada" it has to be build as one, if the traffic is lower, then build something else.


A29 Palermo-Mazara del Vallo/Trapani was build as an 'autostrada' but for other reasons.


----------



## italystf

brick84 said:


> A29 Palermo-Mazara del Vallo/Trapani was build as an 'autostrada' but for other reasons.


It's not clear what this sentence does mean.


----------



## brick84

*Highway A18 Siracusa-Gela*

_New lots 'Rosolini-Ispica/Pozzallo' under costruction_


Works going on but slowly.


----------



## brick84

italystf said:


> It's not clear what this sentence does mean.


The A29 was built to raise the economy of 'Valle del Belice' (province of Trapani) after the earthquake of 1968; it should has been a simbol of rebirth of that part of region.
And it was built following the costruction criteria of that time.


----------



## Suburbanist

A3 would not have been built as a full highway back in the day if that was the condition for its construction, period.

It is already a miracle it was built as it was (before the renovation/upgrade started in 2004). 

It could have ended up as a coastal highway. There were actually people back in the day that wanted it on the coast. Others wanted two highways in Calabria, one on each coast (Tyrrhenian and Ionian). A compromise was made, as to benefit all provinces of Calabria and not favor one coastal area over the other, and they built A3 + several short links to the coasts. Now they are very slowly upgrading SS106 to expressway standards (still better than old A3) and obviously A3 is becoming a World-class highway. So in the end Calabria will get very decent highway infrastructure.


----------



## italystf

A very common misconception in Italy is that A3 has been U/C since the 1970s and it had never been completed.
In reality, construction took only 8 years, between 1964 and 1972. However, A3 was built as a substandard dual-carriaggeway, with steep slopes, short-radius curves and no hard shoulders (look at the SS3bis\E45 today). In those years this infrastructure was though to be adequate, since it crossed one of the poorest, least industrialized and most sparsely populated areas of Italy.
I think it would have been cheaper to build the highway along the Tyrrenian coast, with a spur to Cosenza.
Already in the late 1980s, with the increase of traffic, this highway appeared to be substandard and also the EU pushed for an upgrade. Reconstruction works started in 2004 and hopefully they will be completed by the end of this decade.
Those works were delayed and their costs were inflated due to corruption and mafia involvement, with some companies that got their contracts cancelled after being found guilty. Moreover, the long 1+1 sections due to roadworks create long traffic jams especially in summer (now less than few years ago), causing a lot of public outcry and complaints.



brick84 said:


> The A29 was built to raise the economy of 'Valle del Belice' (province of Trapani) after the earthquake of 1968; it should has been a simbol of rebirth of that part of region.
> And it was built following the costruction criteria of that time.


If it wasn't for the earthquake, they wouldn't have built a motorway to Western Sicily? Aren't Trapani, Marsala and Mazara del Vallo large enough to justify a fast connection to the rest of the world?
Anyway, it's known that some weird curves of A29 were built to avoid exproprating land from mafiosi.


----------



## brick84

italystf said:


> If it wasn't for the earthquake, they wouldn't have built a motorway to Western Sicily? Aren't Trapani, Marsala and Mazara del Vallo large enough to justify a fast connection to the rest of the world?
> Anyway, it's known that some weird curves of A29 were built to avoid exproprating land from mafiosi.


As well as A3 and A19, the criteria were different in 1971 (when the works started).


----------



## John Maynard

italystf said:


> Anyway, it's known that some weird curves of A29 were built to avoid exproprating land from mafiosi.


Also, one of the most spectacular assassination took place on A29:
When mafia committed a successful attack on this motorway against anti-mafia judge Giovanni Falconne on May 23rd, 1992.

They placed 500 kilos of remotely controlled explosives on a pedestrian underpass. Which they detonated when the car of the judge passed over it.
At the time, Judge Falconi was one of the most protected person in the world, he was even more protected than the President and Prime Minister of Italy. He was always escorted by sercret services with armored vehicules, and there were several convoys and flights going in different directions, in order to avoid knowing where he was.

The convoy was going from Punta Raisi airport to Palermo. When the First armored escort car passed over the bombs, it was literaly thrown away over hundred meters from the motorway in a garden of olives trees. The next armored car was the one of the judge: it was projected on a concrete wall and hit by heavy high-speed debris. Neither Falconi, nor his wife were wearing seat belts, they died instantly.

This event is known in Italy as the "Strage di Capaci" (Capaci massacre).

The bomb attack took place near the town of Capaci:









The mafia has literally blow up the motorway:









The first armored car of the escort, barely recognizable:









The armored car of judge Falcone:


















Judge Falcone and his wife (first from the left):









Other cars were hit and destroyed too, as buildings near the motorway that were damaged due to the power of the explosion:




































The A29 autostrada, barely looks like such:









The pedestrian underpass were the bombs were placed:









Scenario (in Italian):









Today, there is a memorial on this site:









Useful links (in Italian): http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strage_di_Capaci

http://www.giornalettismo.com/archi...di-capaci/ventanni-dalla-strage-di-capaci-15/


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## friedrichstrasse

pccvspw999 said:


> Than these roads should not have been classified as "autostrade" and without hard shoulder lower speed limits shall apply.
> If there is traffic to justify an "autostrada" it has to be build as one, if the traffic is lower, then build something else.


But in fact, they _have_ built something else 



brick84 said:


> And it was built following the costruction criteria of that time.


No.


----------



## legolego

John Maynard said:


> Nonetheless, autostradas are bloodily expensive, per example: take the A5 from Aosta to Torino (90 km of tolled motorway) roundtrip, and you already got your Swiss motorway vignette (valid for 14 months)!
> Also, gasoline and diesel is more expensive too, by 15 to 35%.
> 
> Moreover, you can at least expect a good highway for this price with a good roadway quality, but it's often not the case: many tolled motorways do not have proper hard shoulders (if they have them at all!), are narrow, do have very short entry/exit (very dangerous!) even for service stations, almost like a Reichsautobahn of the 1930's :lol:.
> 
> In fact, last time I was in Northern Italy, I found a marked deterioration of pavements quality (on motorways, as well as SS, SR, and main roads). Is it because of maintenance savings due to the crisis?.
> Further, the A6 Torino-Savona has lots of potholes, and the second lane is closed on some portions because of it :bash:.





John Maynard said:


> Well, it's not the case for the route I often take Aosta-Liguria. It costs me nearly 60€ for ~300 km of tolled motorway, which makes that each kilometer of motorway is ~0,2€ :nuts:.
> 
> As a matter of fact, prices of some Italian autostradas took a dive up recently.


The "extra-cost" depends of it :

"...Da Aosta Ovest a Courmayeur viaggiando in auto o moto il pedaggio è pari a € 5,50 e da Courmayeur ad Aosta Ovest viaggiando in camper a 2 assi il pedaggio è pari a € 7,30.
Il calcolo del pedaggio, secondo il criterio precedentemente richiamato, si applica sulla rete autostradale con sistema "chiuso", ovvero quando il Cliente ritira un biglietto in entrata e lo consegna in uscita, pagando il pedaggio corrispondente al percorso effettuato. Nelle autostrade con sistema “aperto”, come è il caso della tratta della R.A.V., non essendo previsto il ritiro del biglietto in entrata, il pedaggio viene calcolato sulla base di una percorrenza predeterminata convenzionale; in questo caso il Cliente, ad ogni transito presso un casello autostradale, paga un importo forfettario. La R.A.V., al fine di favorire l'utilizzo dell'autostrada per coloro che la percorrono solo in parte con entrate/uscite agli svincoli intermedi del sistema aperto, *dal 2000, in accordo con la Regione Valle d'Aosta e previa approvazione dell'ANAS, riconosce in fattura ai Clienti muniti di apparato Telepass una riduzione del pedaggio commisurata al tragitto realmente effettuato, pari a circa il 90% per lo svincolo di Aosta Ovest e di circa il 40% per lo svincolo di Morgex*."

(asking someone for translation)


----------



## narkelion

That is right only for the stretch of A5 past Aosta, though. All the way from Turin to Aosta is still a closed system with no discount for telepass users.


----------



## italystf

Some viaducts of A29 are already in disastrous conditions after 30 years:
Video from 2009


----------



## legolego

narkelion said:


> That is right only for the stretch of A5 past Aosta, though. All the way from Turin to Aosta is still a closed system with no discount for telepass users.


Yes (take a look to the last few words  )
The "over-priced toll" is for the strecth Morgex-Aosta.

If you Pass "barriera di Aosta" directed to Monte Bianco, you'll pay for all the lenght starting from the "barriera" to Parking lot of Monte Bianco, also you want to exit to Aosta Ovest or Morgex.

But if you have "telepass" , they automatically cut this costs:
Svincolo Aosta Ovest	: - 4,90	
Svincolo di Morgex	: - 2,00


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

I have question for you guys.I think that A3 doesn't have better pavement compared to motorways on Sicily.Am i right?


----------



## brick84

This photo belongs 'Strage di via D'Amelio'.


----------



## brick84

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> I have question for you guys.I think that A3 doesn't have better pavement compared to motorways on Sicily.Am i right?


No.
Now the new strechtes opened in A3 are probably the best in whole Italy.


----------



## Fab87

brick84 said:


> Now the new strechtes opened in A3 are *probably the best in whole Italy*.


they are top quality (e.g. they have drain asphalt) just like the stretches of many tolled highways in the rest of the country. A huge improvement on before.


----------



## Suburbanist

Something Italy did well ahead of its neighbors was to adopt better quality guard-rails and porous (draining) asphalt on highways. Driving under moderate or light rain in Italy used to be much more comfortable than in France. And the guard-rails give the feeling of being safer as well (less so for cars, probably much more so for trucks or motorbikes)


----------



## Autobahn-mann

italystf said:


> If it wasn't for the earthquake, they wouldn't have built a motorway to Western Sicily? Aren't Trapani, Marsala and Mazara del Vallo large enough to justify a fast connection to the rest of the world?
> Anyway, it's known that some weird curves of A29 were built to avoid exproprating land from mafiosi.


I think that maybe would be realised only the stretch Palermo-Castellammare-Trapani...


----------



## Autobahn-mann

italystf said:


> Aparently, the first stretch of the "Pedemontana Veneta" expressway, will open by the end of this year. It stretches from A31 to Breganze
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ilgiornaledivicenza.it/s...ontana_tra_un_anno_apre_il_primo_mini-tratto/





g.spinoza said:


> ^^ That's unexpected. Very little information about this road come up on the media, I thought it would lag behind and be delayed.





italystf said:


> It's plausible, though, since works in this section started already in 2011. Since it's 5,7km, I think that the section that will open is A31 - Breganze ovest.


Yes, I confirm.
I've read that article on the newspaper.

However, I think that the first stretch that will be open are that between Thiene (A31) and Bassano, because it follow the path of Provincial Road 111 "New Gasparona" that in a one-carrageway highway with junctions...
In that stretches the work consist in build the 2nd carriageway and the modernization and adaptation of old carriageway (I've checked the works).

It's to consider that the Montecchio bypass (actual Regional Highway 246 racc, 4 km long) that have highway standard (type B of italian Highway code) will be integrated in the "Pedemontana"... This highway isn't actually connected with the A4 motorway, but there are in work the prolungation of that. It will maybe often in 2016...


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ last page of italian thread about it
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=554868&page=19

(check also old pages)


----------



## John Maynard

brick84 said:


> This photo belongs 'Strage di via D'Amelio'.


Correct! Thanks . Actually, this picture was together with the Capaci massacre.

^^ In fact, they were many "Stragi" perpetrated by mafia in Sicily.
They just act like terrorists, but on a local scale.

Also, for the underpass, it wasn't a pedestrian passage as I thought in the beginning, but a small water canal, were mafiosi introduced the bombs on small wheels. Either, they weren't buildings in proximity.

In addition, here is a reconstruction of the event:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOBJ5Nxyjkg&gl=US

Withal, a change of denomination to: 
A29 "autostrada dei Mafiosi" would sound even more horrible :weird:


----------



## brick84

John Maynard said:


> Withal, a change of denomination to:
> A29 "autostrada dei Mafiosi" would sound even more horrible :lol:


hno:


----------



## italystf

John Maynard said:


> ^^ In fact, they were many "Stragi" perpetrated by mafia in Sicily.
> They just act like terrorists, but on a local scale.
> :weird:


Not just on a local scale. In 1993 they detonated bombs in central Florence (5 deaths and 48 injures) and Milan (5 deaths and 12 injures) and Rome (no casualities). In those cases they didn't aim at specific targets, they wanted only to destabilize the state.
After that, this extreme violence ended, but there were rumours that it happened because a secret pact was signed between some mafiosi and politicians (i.e. We don't make bomb attacks but you close an eye on our dirty affairs).


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## Fab87

*Valdastico Sud*

I saw this map posted by ChrisZwolle a couple of weeks ago. 










Guys, did anyone write here about the completion of Valdastico Sud (a31)?

The entire stretch between Vicenza and Badia Polesine (intersection with SS434 Transpolesana) has been opened in december 2014.


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## g.spinoza

Fab87 said:


> Guys, did anyone write here about the completion of Valdastico Sud (a31)?
> 
> The entire stretch between Vicenza and Badia Polesine (intersection with SS434 Transpolesana) has been opened in december 2014.


Not true. The Vicenza-Badia Polesine stretch has been opened in different times over the two last years, and it's not completed yet. Two stretches are still missing: Santa Margherita-Noventa Vicentina (few weeks left) and Noventa Vicentina-Agugliaro (next May).


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## Fab87

Ok, my information was wrong then! Thanks for correcting


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## Autobahn-mann

Not very correct...
From vicenza to longare was opened in 2012, prolonged to albettone in 2013, and in 2014 were opened the stretched albettone-agugliaro and the Southern part between badia polesine (ss434) and santa margherita d'Adige... in this mounth or in february will be opened another stretch and in may will be complete


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## italystf

Fab87 said:


> I saw this map posted by ChrisZwolle a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Guys, did anyone write here about the completion of Valdastico Sud (a31)?
> 
> The entire stretch between Vicenza and Badia Polesine (intersection with SS434 Transpolesana) has been opened in december 2014.


No, the central section is still U/C:
Santa Margherita d'Adige - Noventa Vicentina: it should open in May.
Noventa Vicentina - Agugliaro: it should open in the next weeks.

EDIT: Wow, two answered before me.


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## Suburbanist

*The transverse expressways of Abruzzo and Molise*

Regions Abruzzo and Molise have 3 transverse (sea => mountains) parallel 2x1 expressways that are most often ignored.

SS652 - Fossacesia - Castel di Sangro (this 9km gap is still missing)

SS650 - San Salvo - Isernia

SS647 - Termoli - Bojano

They are connected by A14 near the coast and by SS17 on the hinterland, parallel to the mountains. SS17 has a small gap to be closed near Isernia.

This combination forms an interesting regional network.

However, I wonder whether it would have been better to have just two fast links, one of them being a highway.

They also need to work on SS85 on Campania side, in a way that will facilitate access from A1 to Isernia and from there to other areas in those two regions with a fast road.


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## Verso

Autobahn-mann said:


> I think that maybe would be realised only the stretch Palermo-Castellammare-Trapani...


Was the motorway to Trapani built because of Trapani itself, or more because of Tunisia?


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## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Was the motorway to Trapani built because of Trapani itself, or more because of Tunisia?


Tunisia?!?


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## Verso

^^ Isn't there a ferry between Trapani and Tunis?


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## Coccodrillo

^^ ^^ A60 will be an extension of SS 712, but they will likely keep different numbers as SS 712 has not motorway standards. SS 712 was even unnumbered (at least for the public) until not much time ago. Many Italian road which were previously numbered as NSA (Nuova Strada ANAS = New ANAS Road = temporary number) received a "standard" number recently. Some NSA roads were even signposted as such. A temporary number (even if used for a lot of time) which is signposted is quite unusual...

https://maps.google.ch/maps?ll=45.789821,8.860881&spn=0.01203,0.01929&t=m&z=16

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strada_statale_712_Tangenziale_Est_di_Varese

An extension of A60 on the other side of SS 712 is still planned but will not be built soon:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/45347#map=16/45.8037/8.8641


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## Samply

Coccodrillo said:


> An extension of A60 on the other side of SS 712 is still planned but will not be built soon:
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/45347#map=16/45.8037/8.8641


But still may likely be completed before the Italian side of the FMV!



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## Autoputevi kao hobi

*A14,Bologna bypass*



Fab87 said:


> picture by user Van Loon






 And here is a video.


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## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> Last 23rd December a 1km stretch of SS 121 "Palermo-Agrigento", in Sicily, was opened. It is a 1+1 new road on a difficult mountain stretch.
> By 1st January, viaduct Scorciavacche 2 was already in these conditions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From newspaper La Stampa:
> http://www.lastampa.it/2015/01/04/italia/cronache/palermo-crolla-il-viadotto-dieci-giorni-dopo-linaugurazione-renzi-il-responsabile-pagher-xLJNqHLqRd4S5owcPC5w3H/pagina.html
> 
> EDIT: Ooops, italystf was faster



New insights on this.
http://www.corriere.it/inchieste/re...ci/82987348-a02f-11e4-84eb-449217828c75.shtml
Newspaper _Il Corriere della Sera_ explains some details about the construction and opening of this stretch. Summing up:

- Viaduct was opened ahead of schedule (3 months) because both the construction company and Pietro Ciucci (head of Italian State Road company ANAS) would have earned a bonus.
- Nobody made tests on the viaduct. The first engineer didn't go to the site because when he was called, works were still at a very early stage. The second engineer didn't go because... he was not an engineer (he didn't even have a degree). Third and fourth engineers didn't go, either.
- The director of works wrote a "certificate of conformity", but the law states that such a document must be produced only in cases of absolute urgence (which was not the case).
- A former worker of ANAS stated that the three months were necessary for the terrain to consolidate, so opening ahead of schedule was not correct.
- Ciucci fired the Head of Construction Department of ANAS in Sicily, Bucci. But this was just a ruse: he was transferred, with the same job, in Abruzzo, where his family lives (so it was kind of a promotion, instead of a punishment). Bucci was replaced by Lagrotteria, convicted in 2010 for corruption: when this was brought forth by the press, Ciucci fired him and replaced him with another guy.


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## brick84

*Highway A18 Catania-Messina, Sicily - Italy*

_tollbooth of Giarre (CT)_












by Alessandro Lo Piccolo Hollweger on Flickr


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## italystf

^^ Nice, but I think it was already posted (unless I'm confusing with another thread).


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## Autobahn-mann

I confirm. It was already posted


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## narkelion

I think it was this one:


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

edit


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Pictures of A23:
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/115956859.jpg
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/115956928.jpg
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/115956934.jpg


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Second part:
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/115956956.jpg
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/115956974.jpg
That's all for now,if i have time i'll post more pictures.


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## Samply

Apparently A60 Gazzada Schianno-Vedano Olona (4.5km) section linking the A8 and an already built section of tangenziale di Varese, will open on Saturday.
http://milano.corriere.it/notizie/c...to-1a2c9b2e-a19a-11e4-8f86-063e3fa7313b.shtml
A36 Cassano Magnago (A8) to Lomazzo (A9) should open January 31.
http://www.laprovinciadivarese.it/stories/Cronaca/pedemontana-si-parte-ma-a-meta_1100453_11/


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## g.spinoza

Samply said:


> A36 Cassano Magnago (A8) to Lomazzo (A9) should open January 31.
> http://www.laprovinciadivarese.it/stories/Cronaca/pedemontana-si-parte-ma-a-meta_1100453_11/


This has been announced for January 26th:
http://milano.corriere.it/notizie/c...to-1a2c9b2e-a19a-11e4-8f86-063e3fa7313b.shtml


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## g.spinoza

I don't know if this has already been posted, but here is an aerial video, possibly made by a drone, of the soon-to-be-opened first stretch of A36:

http://video.corriere.it/viaggio-nuova-autostrada/3a6e0ab4-a0bc-11e4-b571-55218c79aee3


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## Samply

*[I] Italy | road infrastructure • strade e autostrade*

Sorry, you're right. First section of A36 should open on Monday 26.


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## brick84

italystf said:


> ^^ Nice, but I think it was already posted (unless I'm confusing with another thread).





Autobahn-mann said:


> I confirm. It was already posted





narkelion said:


> I think it was this one:


Mmm.. Maybe. I think it was another photo of the same eruption (December 2013) 

Etna made usually 10-12 eruptions/year and this explains why you probably have already seen an eruption from Giarre's toolbooth.



_18 January 2011_










_23 February 2013_










and 13 January 2011:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/filicudi/5352281828/


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## Suburbanist

Without a doubt an awesome sight (as long as stones are not falling over your car, just ash).


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

*A15: Autostrada della Cisa (La Spezia - Parma), Italy*





My overall opinion is that A15 is very good motorway with good pavement.I think that i saw couple of potholes,but that's normal for every old motorway.Also i think that A15 has better pavemnt then A1 thru Apennines.


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## g.spinoza

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> My overall opinion is that A15 is very good motorway


It's not.
I drove there several times, and while the mountain section on the Thyrrenian side is not that bad, the one on the other side is terrible: steep, sharp 60 km/h curves at the end of straight downhill sections... is one of the most dangerous roads I've ever driven.


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## Suburbanist

There is no way A15 is a better highway (geometry, design) than A1. It wasn't a better road even before the first parts of the works on A1 were completed.

As g.spinoza said, there are some tight curves there. 

It is fun to drive, though, on a clear skies days without fog and much traffic.

-----------------

This is my very personal rank, best to worst, of all trans-Apennine _autostrada_ in Italy, considering geometry, design, subjective safety perception etc.

1. A25
2. A1 when fully completed
3. A26
4. A15
5. A25
6. A16
7. A6 (technically, it crosses the Alps)
8. A7

A6 southbound is the most fun to drive on a day with clear skies and no congestion. A25 is the most scenic.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nobody notices those E-numbers anyway


The only one who notices them are we,road nerds


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## italystf

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> The only one who notices them are we,road nerds


I probably wouldn't have noticed the E31\E33 thing. Even if I know all A-numbers in Italy, I know only some E-numbers. I think they should be removed from signage, they are a redundant and useless information. Only in Scandinavian countries they're actually used.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Well i think that truckers are the ones who are using them the most.


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## Samply

italystf said:


> Italy is free to build the motorway till the Swiss border, as long it passes the "VIA" (_valutazione d'impatto ambientale_, environmental impact assessment) like any other infrastructure. An international agreement would be necessary only to build the motorway on both sides. Switzerland could decide to build a Stabio - Mendrisio motorway in a second moment if traffic will require it (or, more probably, held a cantonal referendum for it).



Of course Italy is free to build a motorway, if Italy can afford to. 
Thing is section 2 of A60 would only worsen the bottleneck at the border and going in to Stabio, and although it would improve conditions theoretically coming in to Italy, as most of the traffic on that road is generated by people who work daily in Ticino, there is no way they would accept paying a toll to go to work, so the motorway just like the rest of pedemontana is destined to follow Brebemi. As it should!


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## Samply

italystf said:


> Or this . :lol:
> In the case of A60, it would be useful to reach CH even without motorway on the other side, because there is an open border.



What open border? I take it you never drive through Gaggiolo!
Any minute you might save on a hypothetical motorway arriving there you lose once you arrive there. This motorway would only make sense if you agree with the Swiss on completing it all the way to the Swiss A2. 
Good luck on that!


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## javimix19

Seeing Google Map, I see few gaps in motorways/expressways:

-A31 in North Italy, between Badia Polesine and Noventa Vicentina

-SS85 in Venafro. It appears like it is only a beltway.

- SS675 between west Vetralla and connection with SS1 in East Italy.

- SR2 between Monterosi and Vetralla. (Connection with SS1bis)

- Between interchange E78/E35 in Monte San Savino to Citta di Castello by SS221 passing by Arezzo. 

- Between Perugia and Falco Marittima (SS318, SS76)


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## ChrisZwolle

A36 opens to traffic today:

http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/notizia/100015012699005

http://www.laprovinciadicomo.it/sto...piu-vicino-laeroporto-di-malpensa_1101555_11/

I believe this is the first motorway in Italy with electronic toll collection? Google Earth reveals no toll plazas.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> A36 opens to traffic today:
> 
> http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/notizia/100015012699005
> 
> http://www.laprovinciadicomo.it/sto...piu-vicino-laeroporto-di-malpensa_1101555_11/
> 
> I believe this is the first motorway in Italy with electronic toll collection? Google Earth reveals no toll plazas.


Technically it is A60, opened two days before 
They're part of the same project, though.


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## g.spinoza

javimix19 said:


> Seeing Google Map, I see few gaps in motorways/expressways:
> 
> -A31 in North Italy, between Badia Polesine and Noventa Vicentina


Will be completed in next weeks.



> -SS85 in Venafro. It appears like it is only a beltway.


Part of the future motorway between Termoli (A14) and San Vittore (A1).



> - Between Perugia and Falco Marittima (SS318, SS76)


In construction now. Opening in stages between 2015 and 2017.
And it's Falconara Marittima


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A60 is the bypass of Varese, right?

_Oggi alle 15 apre la tratta A della Pedemontana da Cassano Magnago a Lomazzo._

I thought this was A36, from A8 (Cassano Magnago) to A9 (Lomazzo).


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> A60 is the bypass of Varese, right?
> 
> _Oggi alle 15 apre la tratta A della Pedemontana da Cassano Magnago a Lomazzo._
> 
> I thought this was A36, from A8 (Cassano Magnago) to A9 (Lomazzo).


Yes, today A36 opened, but few days ago A60 (tangenziale di Varese) opened, and it has electronic tolling too.

I just meant A60 is the first electronic tolled motorway in Italy, not A36.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Ah, OK


----------



## italystf

A36 Cassano Magnago (A8) – Lomazzo (A9) (14,3km) was opened to traffic today at 6 p.m. I expected they will open it tomorrow, since they did that with A60.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ In the Italian forum they say it is already opened in both directions.


----------



## Coccodrillo

I read that until the end of this year toll will not be collected - so no free flow toll system is currently oeprating in Italy.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ I was wondering about that. The website is quite vague about the tolling system and toll rates.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> I just meant A60 is the first electronic tolled motorway in Italy, not A36.


How does it work, purchasing via internet?


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> How does it work, purchasing via internet?


You want the truth? Nobody knows.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ In the Italian forum they say it is already opened in both directions.


I read the Italian forum. I was saying I'm surprised that it was actually opened 3 hours after the ceremony, instead of a day later like I would have expected.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Ah sorry, I misunderstood.


----------



## Samply

Up until now we've been told that A36 and A60 will be "free" for 2015. 
Now however the Pedemontana website:
http://www.pedemontana.com/in-viaggio/sistemi-di-pedaggio.html
and politicians:
http://www3.varesenews.it/lombardia...ggio-durante-expo-paga-la-regione-305032.html

are saying that the motorways will be free during Expo 2015
which means that tolls will apply to these motorways from Nov 1st 2015.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Suburbanist

I truly hope the system is a success and that they rapidly deploy it all over the country. Italian highway exists are often notoriously complex due to the need to accommodate toll plazas.

This would also help the plans for tolls on A3. I think A3 should be tolled as soon as it is completed.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

A3 is going to be tolled once it gets completed.I only worry that less traffic will use it once it get's tolled.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ There's no such plan, yet.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ There's no such plan, yet.


Well, completion of A3 is 8 or 9 years away,so we still have to discuss about that


----------



## definitivo

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Well, completion of A3 is 8 or 9 years away,so we still have to discuss abot that


...till than, you'll finish high school, university and you wll be proposed for ( Serbian ) Ministry of infrastructure...:nuts:


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

A1 








You can see Variante di Valico in the back


----------



## keber

I found out that some autostrada operators don't deduce toll amounts from a credit card as soon as possible. I'm still waiting from Saturday travel from Frejus tunnel and around Torino to deduce tolls from my credit card.
Autovie Veneto, on the same day, deduced required amount at once.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> I found out that some autostrada operators don't deduce toll amounts from a credit card as soon as possible. I'm still waiting from Saturday travel from Frejus tunnel and around Torino to deduce tolls from my credit card.
> Autovie Veneto, on the same day, deduced required amount at once.


I don't think there's a pattern. I travel often on A21 and sometimes they deduce toll amounts immediately, sometimes after a while...


----------



## Fab87

tough day on italian highways yesterday. Due to heavy snowfalls, trucks above 7.5 tons were banned on A1 between Parma and Firenze, while A15 Parma-La Spezia saw no restrictions and yet snowfalls...hence huge traffic jams

Truck ban on A1 between Parma and Bologna aimed at avoiding total congestion of the Bologna hub, but this affected heavily local transports in roughly 50% of northern italy.


----------



## g.spinoza

A21 between Piacenza and Brescia was closed for the whole morning.


----------



## Corvinus

Some shots of SS16 Ravenna -> Rimini from Summer 2014.
This road is signposted as blue (toll-free) motorway. Due to poor repair of its surface, absence of hard shoulder and, maybe, frequent exits, it is limited to 50 km/h. Typical speed of moving traffic was 80 - 100 km/h.











2.










3.










4.










5.


----------



## g.spinoza

50 km/h for such a road is absurd and unrealistic.


----------



## verreme

^^ There are many, many absurd 50 km/h speed limits in Italian roads outside city limits, but I agree that this may be one of the worst cases.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^Speed should be limited to 70-80km/h.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Why is SS16 so neglected?


----------



## Verso

It says 110 km/h in GSV:

http://goo.gl/maps/bvxHw


----------



## Coccodrillo

Corvinus said:


> Some shots of SS16 Ravenna -> Rimini from Summer 2014. This road is signposted as blue (toll-free) motorway.


"blue motorways" are not motorways without tolls, but roads with two carriageways which have lower standards (colloquially called "superstrada/superstrade").

Toll-free motorways like A3 still have green signs, and in theory there could be tolled superstrade (there aren't now, the first should be the Pedemontana Veneta - which it seems designed like an autostrada, but with shoulders 50 cm or so narrower which prevents it to have green signs).


----------



## Moravian

Coccodrillo said:


> "blue motorways" are not motorways without tolls, but roads with two carriageways which have lower standards (colloquially called "superstrada/superstrade").
> 
> Yes, these 4-lanes-superstradas provide lower standards (rest stations, surface etc.) but they are toll-free and with heavy traffic, some examples: SS16 Ravenna-Rimini, SS3bis Terni-Cesena-Ravenna, Firenze-Pisa-Livorno, Firenze-Siena, Terni-Orte-Viterbo, 2-lines SS309 Via Romea Mestre-Ravenna, SS11 round Brescia, some roads near Roma etc. Some of them are E-routes too.


----------



## italystf

Moravian said:


> Coccodrillo said:
> 
> 
> 
> "blue motorways" are not motorways without tolls, but roads with two carriageways which have lower standards (colloquially called "superstrada/superstrade").
> 
> Yes, these 4-lanes-superstradas provide lower standards (rest stations, surface etc.) but they are toll-free and with heavy traffic, some examples: SS16 Ravenna-Rimini, SS3bis Terni-Cesena-Ravenna, Firenze-Pisa-Livorno, Firenze-Siena, Terni-Orte-Viterbo, 2-lines SS309 Via Romea Mestre-Ravenna, SS11 round Brescia, some roads near Roma etc. Some of them are E-routes too.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately SS309 Mestre-Ravenna is not a superstrada but a regular 2 lanes road, with at-grade junctions and a lot of traffic.
Click to expand...


----------



## Eddard Stark

Meanwhile the accident on A3 is having disastrous consequences on traffic. The bridge is totally closed in both directions and there are no good alternatives to it. They are talking of hours of delays for a very long time


----------



## Suburbanist

Eddard Stark said:


> Meanwhile the accident on A3 is having disastrous consequences on traffic. The bridge is totally closed in both directions and there are no good alternatives to it. They are talking of hours of delays for a very long time


"Hours of delay" is an exaggeration, at least not considering summer weekends.

There should be some 45-60 min delay under average conditions. This is the place where it happened.


SS19 (the local alternative) is a windy road through the hills, but it has space for 2 lanes, if only.

Longer distance traffic has options of longer detours.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

italystf said:


> Horrible tunnel disaster today on SS42 near Breno, Lombardy: a truck lost some heavy steel bars after a accident and they hit passing cars. 2 dead and 10 injured.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bresciatoday.it/cronaca/...015.html#_ga=1.15218742.1234156464.1425330062



Mu family's hometown. The guy who triggered the multiple crash by illegally overtaking another vehicle died. Just about time to install CCTV in those tunnels. And fine people like there's no tomorrow. There, several other tunnels along the same road. Many around 2km and 1 is 5+ km.


----------



## italystf

The opening of the Pedemontana Veneta expressaway was delayed from 2017 to 2018, except that very short section that will open later this year.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is there some more information known about the damage to the Viadotto Italia?


----------



## italystf

^^ The section of A3 between Laino Borgo and Mormanno will remain close for at least 6 months. Even if the other carriaggeway didn't collapse, they need to close it for investigation.
Currently traffic uses the following alternate routes:
Northbound light traffic leaves the motorway at Mormanno and re-enters it at Laino Borgo, using local roads. Southbound light traffic follows the same route in the opposite direction. Average delay: 25 minutes.
Northbound heavy traffic is required to leave the motorway at Spezzano Terme - Tarsia and re-enter it at Lauria Nord, using SS283, SS534, SS106 and SS653. Estimate delay: 60 minutes.
Southbound heavy traffic is required to leave the motorway at Lagonegro Nord and re-enter it at Falerna, via SS585 and SS18. Estimate delay: 45 minutes.
I guess those delays will be much worse this summer, especially during weekends.
http://www.ilquotidianoweb.it/news/cronache/735050/Viadotto-crollato-sulla-A3--l.html


----------



## -Pino-

^^ Ouch. 

You'd expect part of the summer traffic to switch to the A14 and SS106 for the drive South. The crossing between the Ionica and the A3 at Sibari (SS534) is South of the bridge. But apart from this being much less of an issue for people travelling South from places like Rome and Napoli, you can expect some serious bottlenecks along the SS106 and the SS534.


----------



## italystf

-Pino- said:


> ^^ Ouch.
> 
> You'd expect part of the summer traffic to switch to the A14 and SS106 for the drive South. The crossing between the Ionica and the A3 at Sibari (SS534) is South of the bridge. But apart from this being much less of an issue for people travelling South from places like Rome and Napoli, you can expect some serious bottlenecks along the SS106 and the SS534.


There will probably occur traffic jams at the end of A14 at Massafra and on SS534, that is currently under upgrade works. Traffic to\from Sicily should use the Naples-Palermo ferry instead.


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*


The works for three lane highways from Napoli to Castellammare di Stabia were definitively completed!


----------



## italystf

brick84 said:


> *A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*
> 
> 
> The works for three lane highways from Napoli to Castellammare di Stabia were definitively completed!


Works for the third lane from Naples to Castellamare di Stabia had finally been completed. 

The widening of the 25-km-long section of motorway took 11 years and costed over 500 million €. Works were supposed to end in 2008, but they were delayed due to local political issues and appeals in court against it.
The new junction of Angri\Scafati will open at the end of te year. The entire section has draining asphalt now.
http://www.askanews.it/regioni/camp...i-pompei-da-domani-a-tre-corsie_711371682.htm


----------



## brick84

Third lane from Napoli to Castellammare di Stabia by night:






_*by stabia*_ on italian forum


----------



## italystf

The first free-flow portal of Italy had been installed few days ago on the recently-opened Varese bypass (A60). It's not operative yet, though.


----------



## g.spinoza

Another bridge failure on Italian motorways!

Viaduct Cacchione, km 462.4 southbound of the A14, between Vasto Sud and Termoli has been closed due to a landslide beneath that created a 15 cm gap in the pavement:










http://corrieredelmezzogiorno.corri...1e4-96b7-2cbc6edfe378.shtml?cmpid=SF020103COR


Picture from a local road nearby:


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ Sorry, but it isn't a "failure", it's a landslide which destroyed the road. Or do You think bridges shall withstand these kind of unforeseekable events?
And we are not talking about a new bridge, it's there since decades.
Your post is misguiding.


----------



## g.spinoza

Failure means it doesn't work any more. Nothing judgemental in my words.


----------



## Suburbanist

pccvspw999 said:


> ^^ Sorry, but it isn't a "failure", it's a landslide which destroyed the road. Or do You think bridges shall withstand these kind of unforeseekable events?
> And we are not talking about a new bridge, it's there since decades.
> Your post is misguiding.


g.spinoza used "failure" in a proper context in English.


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ No, not at all!


----------



## Verso

I also thought there had been something wrong with the bridge, but apparently there wasn't.


----------



## Suburbanist

pccvspw999 said:


> ^^ No, not at all!


In English, failure can be used as a descriptor of abnormal non self-correcting disruption in some system. It might be earthworks or special works in a highway, software etc.


----------



## g.spinoza

From Merriam Webster dictionary:

a fracturing or giving way under stress*<structural*failure>


----------



## brick84

italystf said:


> Yes, but some parts will still require several years because they aren't U/C yet.


Yes, i know. I meant that with 'the rest'


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Sunfuns said:


> Clearly much cheaper than building it
> 
> I don't know what the costs are, but my guess would be that the more expensive part is not the implosion itself but the removal of the resulting rubble and renaturing of the area.


Anyway I was wondering what the destiny of the old tunnels will be.

I don't thik they're gonna demolish (how?) or fill 'em.
I think dozens of abandoned tunnels will remain to 'witness' the old track


----------



## italystf

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Anyway I was wondering what the destiny of the old tunnels will be.
> 
> I don't thik they're gonna demolish (how?) or fill 'em.
> I think dozens of abandoned tunnels will remain to 'witness' the old track


I doubt they will fill them entirely, it will be a huge and needless waste of money. Maybe they will only fill the entrances or even leave them open and adventurous people in the future will explore them like they do today with Roman catacumbs or WWI trenches. :nuts:


----------



## italystf

Long sections of motorway completely abandoned are a real rarity in the world. Parts of Italian A1 south of Bologna have been bypassed too (with reconstruction works completed in 2006), but they are short and partly reconverted as local roads.
The only example that I know around the world is the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Opened in 1940, it was one of the first modern motorway\freeway in the world and in 1968 a 21-km-long section (that included some tunnels) was abandoned and replaced by a more straight alignment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandoned_Pennsylvania_Turnpike


----------



## Suburbanist

Most likely scenario is that they put gates on the entrances, and leave if there, only to have people breaching in after some years to "explore" the ruins. But without the viaducts to give access, most tunnels are rather inaccessible.


----------



## Sunfuns

Those tunnels might be a paradise for bats.


----------



## keber

It is also important that old tunnels are geologically stable on longterm. Are they?


----------



## Coccodrillo

There are various examples of tunnels collapsed because of lack of maintenance after the closure of the infrastructure they carried.

They can even suddenly generate holes in the surface, if they are shallow like this one: http://www.tunnels-ferroviaires.org/tu57/57658.1.pdf

(the whole site is interesting for tunnel fans)


----------



## italystf

Here you can see a section of Italian A1 abandoned since 2006:
https://www.google.it/maps/place/Sa...2!3m1!1s0x132ad464c7199917:0x1ab2eb768bc563f6

Part of the old A1 is still open as "raccordo autostradale" (spur highway) between SS64 and the new (post-2006) A1:
https://www.google.it/maps/place/Sa...2!3m1!1s0x132ad464c7199917:0x1ab2eb768bc563f6

Another part of it is open as 1+1 road, while the other carriaggeway is abandoned:
https://www.google.it/maps/place/Sa...2!3m1!1s0x132ad464c7199917:0x1ab2eb768bc563f6


----------



## Luki_SL

^^ There  are still old A1 signs at the abandoned section


----------



## Coccodrillo

Apaprently you can't continue straight in one direction here - why?

https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Monzu...a+di+Bologna,+Emilia-Romagna,+Italia&t=k&z=18

Also, are there plans to reuse the old alignment? Why they opted for a new 3+3 motorway rather than a single new 3 lane carriageway, using the existing ones one-way (like they did in Tuscany)?


----------



## keber

Coccodrillo said:


> Why they opted for a new 3+3 motorway rather than a single new 3 lane carriageway, using the existing ones one-way (like they did in Tuscany)?


I would presume that old alignment is too curvy for today standards. Also they tried to avoid various settlements as old alignment goes often directly through them. And old objects and tunnels would still need to be demolished and built new to accomodate 3+1 lanes.


----------



## Stravinsky

Suburbanist said:


> link is broken


Link is fixed.


----------



## Fab87

dismissed highway tunnels?
Check what they came up with in Trento.

http://www.legallerie.tn.it/


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Location of the tunnel here (Google Street View)


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Nice. I didn't know that.

Anyway those are dismissed urban tunnels. Their reuse is easier and economically sustainable.

Dismissed tunnels on Salerno-Reggio Calabria are in natural areas, often in hard to reach places


----------



## italystf

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Nice. I didn't know that.
> 
> Anyway those are dismissed urban tunnels. Their reuse is easier and economically sustainable.
> 
> Dismissed tunnels on Salerno-Reggio Calabria are in natural areas, often in hard to reach places


I didn't know it before either. Aparently, SS12 through Trento has been rerouted and upgraded to expressway standards in 2007, leaving those tunnels unused.
Interesing the use of the word "galleria", that in Italian has a double meaning: gallery (art, photo,... g.) or tunnel (road, rail,... t.).


----------



## legolego

verreme said:


> ^^ The last time I was in Italy (2013) I drove in some Tutor-monitored _autostrade_ and I noticed many drivers were still speeding. Is the system on 24/7?


the "survey system" is working 24/7, but doesn't mean that it process the violation 24/7. 
The system can record all the passages, but it's "Polizia stradale" obligation to proceeds and validate the record; than you'll get a fine.

So, Tutor is basically a deterrent


----------



## Suburbanist

*SS145* between Vico Equense and Catellammare di Stabia






that road has been mostly bypassed by a new tunnel recently opened.

PS: I'm not the driver, forumer Stabia is (driver/uploader)


----------



## Highway89

Thank you for posting the video, but I really hope you are not the driver... overtaking inside a tunnel with a double solid line (2:20) hno:


----------



## keber

Eddard Stark said:


> I never saw trucks on SOS. You may have found a special trucking day in Italy when you were here.


Drive in the morning on A4 there are plenty of trucks on SOS bays. It is better than it used to be, I remember cca 10 years ago that it was pretty difficult to find a free bay at all.


----------



## g.spinoza

Eddard Stark said:


> I never saw trucks on SOS. You may have found a special trucking day in Italy when you were here.
> 
> Also the rest areas are not usually overflowing





ChrisZwolle said:


> I haven't used Italian rest areas a lot, but they seem overcrowded with trucks. I've seen SOS bays being used as truck parking as well. Quite dangerous to accelerate from there on a shoulder that's not wide enough for a truck.


I must agree with Chris, I see trucks in SOS bays all the time. 
Also, in rest areas I see trucks always parked beside the gas pumps, while truck park spots are always more or less empty.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> I disagree. French ones are way better.


I do not agree.

They just have bigger parking areas


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Eddard Stark said:


> I never saw trucks on SOS. You may have found a special trucking day in Italy when you were here.
> 
> Also the rest areas are not usually overflowing


I saw a plenty of examples on A1 between Florence and Bologna.


----------



## brick84

Eddard Stark said:


> 2 major motorways in the south interrupted. I have never seen anything like this.


Something like this already happened in Abruzzo region (your region), the last month.

It was even a landscape, but any viaduct collapsed.




> *Abruzzo. La collina frana: chiusa l’autostrada A14 tra Termoli e Vasto*
> *Bloccati anche i treni, dorsale adriatica interrotta*
> ...


http://www.primadanoi.it/news/cronaca/557888/Abruzzo--La-collina-frana-.html


----------



## Suburbanist

My comment about the Italian service areas concerned the facilities itself, more than the buildings. You can eat better at Italian service areas than French ones. Many Autogrill stations have hot plate buffets or food you might try on a long drive, and the bathrooms are usually kept in better conditions compared to France. 

Both countries are on good standing if compared to Spain or Germany though.


----------



## g.spinoza

I find Italian rest areas toilettes simply disgusting


----------



## hofburg

there are good ones too. I would say it's 50:50 good vs bad.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> I find Italian rest areas toilettes simply disgusting





hofburg said:


> there are good ones too. I would say it's 50:50 good vs bad.


Of course it depends by the moment you use them, in relation to the amount of traffic and cleaning shifts. I use them too occasionally to make statistics, though.
The problem often are the users, more than Autogrill personnel. I mean, people don't even respect public places that should perceive as "theirs", like streets and parks in their cities, let alone motorway rest areas that are "transit places" only, used to fulfil people's practical needs without any affective involvement.
At least in Italy we don't have to pay to use the toilets, like we have to do in Austria (50 cents) and I even don't see anymore those "charity baskets" at the entrance of them that were ubquitous until few years ago.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Of course it depends by the moment you use them, in relation to the amount of traffic and cleaning shifts. I use them too occasionally to make statistics, though.
> The problem often are the users, more than Autogrill personnel. I mean, people don't even respect public places that should perceive as "theirs", like streets and parks in their cities, let alone motorway rest areas that are "transit places" only, used to fulfil people's practical needs without any affective involvement.
> At least in Italy we don't have to pay to use the toilets, like we have to do in Austria (50 cents) and I even don't see anymore those "charity baskets" at the entrance of them that were ubquitous until few years ago.


You can't educate people to be respectful, but you can force personnel to clean.


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*


A 4 km stretch in carriway south opened to traffic today near Lauria Nord (Basilicata region)


----------



## Insulateshipper

g.spinoza said:


> I find Italian rest areas toilettes simply disgusting


 Please go in France or spain... also in swtzerland it's realy clean sometimes...


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Spanish rest areas are not the best ones in the world, but the main problem here is the big difference between autopistas and autovías. While in tolled autopistas you have rest areas similar to the ones in France and Italy, in toll-free Autovías rest areas simply don't exist, with a few exceptions there are only old fashioned road restaurants with direct access to the Autovía, or gas stations with a small shop.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Everybody is gunning for the Telepass lanes. A4 Milano Est


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ This shows that free-flow tolling shouldn't be that hard to implement. And it would be much less costly to manage.


----------



## brick84

*A3 Napoli-Reggio Calabria*

_stretch between Torre Annunziata and Torre del Greco (Naples)_





















source: http://www.lavoripubblici.regione.campania.it


----------



## Luki_SL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Everybody is gunning for the Telepass lanes. A4 Milano Est


There should be more Telepass lanes than manual gates


----------



## cinxxx

Is it possible to buy/rent a telepass for people living outside Italy (ex. Germany)?
If yes, from where? Or can one buy one while being in Italy?

Are the costs worth it?


----------



## Highway89

In Spain, we also have reserved lanes for VIA-T (our version of Telepass), however most (if not all) lanes can also be used by VIA-T users. You obviously have to drive more slowly if you want to use VIA-T in a normal toll lane, but that's better than being stuck in a queue for the Telepass lanes.

That would be easy and cheap to implement in Italy, I guess.


----------



## g.spinoza

Highway89 said:


> In Spain, we also have reserved lanes for VIA-T (our version of Telepass), however most (if not all) lanes can also be used by VIA-T users. You obviously have to drive more slowly if you want to use VIA-T in a normal toll lane, but that's better than being stuck in a queue for the Telepass lanes.
> 
> That would be easy and cheap to implement in Italy, I guess.


Many manual gates are also Telepass gates, at least in smaller stations.


----------



## MichiH

cinxxx said:


> Is it possible to buy/rent a telepass for people living outside Italy (ex. Germany)?
> If yes, from where? Or can one buy one while being in Italy?


You can order online: http://www.tolltickets.com/country/italy/telepass.aspx?lang=en-GB.


----------



## italystf

Temporary road signs on A4 near Milan, pointing to parking lots for EXPO 2015.


----------



## g.spinoza

This is a picture of a viaduct regularly open for traffic, on the SS 652 "Fondovalle Sangro", in the center of Italy. 

Careful: not for the faint of heart.


----------



## italystf

^^ Road managed by ANAS. Coincidence? I don't think so. hno:


----------



## narkelion

That's really insane.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That looks really troublesome. I think such a condition would require an immediate road closure in most countries.


----------



## italystf

Amatorial video of A29 Palermo - Mazara del Vallo (opened in 1978, managed by ANAS), showing concrete pillars that are falling part.
The video is from 2009 and the motorway is still standing and open. However, those damages aren't a good sign. Constructors probably wanted to save money by using cheaper materials.
Damages here are more superficial than on SS652, though.


----------



## brick84

g.spinoza said:


> This is a picture of a viaduct regularly open for traffic, on the SS 652 "Fondovalle Sangro", in the center of Italy.
> 
> Careful: not for the faint of heart.





italystf said:


> ^^ Road managed by ANAS. Coincidence? I don't think so. hno:





Eddard Stark said:


> :uh:
> 
> Once again a road in southern Italy hno:
> Coincidence?
> 
> 
> 
> Edit
> Ops, it is my region! icard:


----------



## brick84

*Sassari-Olbia (Sardinia), in November ready the first kilometers*











http://lanuovasardegna.gelocal.it/s...imi-chilometri-della-sassari-olbia-1.11367682


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> This is a picture of a viaduct regularly open for traffic, on the SS 652 "Fondovalle Sangro", in the center of Italy.


By all known construction rules, this is a collapsed pillar and road closure is a must.


----------



## acela

g.spinoza said:


> This is a picture of a viaduct regularly open for traffic, on the SS 652 "Fondovalle Sangro", in the center of Italy.
> 
> Careful: not for the faint of heart.


Did they offset it on purposehno:


----------



## keber

It rather looks like that the pillar base was offset by the pressure of wooden debris that was brought on the river.

And the next pillar in the background doesn't look very healthy too.


----------



## brick84

It probably originate by the earthquake from April 2009.


----------



## g.spinoza

brick84 said:


> It probably originate by the earthquake from April 2009.


I don't think so. The epicenter is really far away.


----------



## cinxxx

I was looking on the weather forecast for next weekend, and from the places not farther then 3-4 hours from me, the area Bolzano-Merano seems to have the best prognosis.

Can you tell me at what elevation is SS44 between Merano and Vipiteno (Sterzing)? Drivable with summer tires in middle May?
I was thinking to visit Bolzano on Saturday and return on Sunday via Merano and SS44.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Jaufenpass (Passo di Monte Giovo) is the highest place in that road at ~2100 m, so it's not very high, but the weather there is kinda harsh... I was caught there once by a snowstorm at the beginning of June...


----------



## cinxxx

^^Ok, so I guess one should inform himself before driving it
http://www.jaufenpass.eu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20&Itemid=22


----------



## brick84

*SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta (Sicily)*

the diaphagrm of 'Papazzo' tunnel was shot down the last week




















http://cmcgruppo.com




carlo riccardo said:


>


----------



## MichiH

Dunno if it was already discussed here but... Why the hell does the eastern Milano bypass A58 end south of Melegnano instead of north of Melegnana as a continuation of the A50 western bypass? It would form a real beltway. There's a displacement by about 6km: map. :?


----------



## italystf

A58 opening ceremony:










http://milano.corriere.it/notizie/c...a1-c89473ea-fbc1-11e4-bdb9-74ccd0f44566.shtml

32 km in total
2,2 billion €
35 months of works


----------



## Eddard Stark

Insulateshipper said:


> If I resume the autostrada and supestrada in construction in Italy: Pedemontana Veneta Pedemontana Lombarda A12 Genova- Roma completation A1 variante Bologna-Firenze ss 318 Fabriano-Perugia ss 77 Foligno marche ss 675 Viterbo-Tarquinia ss 534 A3- Sibari ss 106 locri a18 rossolini-ragusa ss 640 caltanisseta-agrigento ss 16 Maglie-Otranto ss223 Grosseto-Siena A31 val d'astico sud completation We have a lot of work ongoing here!


Also the Sassari-Olbia in Sardinia


----------



## Insulateshipper

Eddard Stark said:


> Also the Sassari-Olbia in Sardinia


Yes right!!:banana:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Here you can see the new A52 north of Milano. I thought they were going to duplicate SP46, but they built a new alignment. The imagery is dated 3 April 2015.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ That section is already open, up to the railway line on the far right. The rest will be an in situ expansion of SP46.


----------



## pccvspw999

That curve on the old alignment wasn't compatible with a motorway standard. Better the chosen solution, by far.


----------



## Insulateshipper

ChrisZwolle said:


> Here you can see the new A52 north of Milano. I thought they were going to duplicate SP46, but they built a new alignment. The imagery is dated 3 April 2015.


Great!:cheers:
Now with the A58, A52, A50, A4, and the A36 (need to be completed) milano have one of the biggest network in europe.
In google maps it's not updated, for exemple half of the expressway of puglia are not in orange on the map. Even the completed portion of the A52 in Milano. It's boring.


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ That section is already open, up to the railway line on the far right. *The rest will be an in situ expansion of SP46.*


Not exactly. The road axis will be displaced several meters to make curves smoother an to put the new carriageway in a trench.
The old alignment will be kept partly to make a local road, single lane.


----------



## Wolfgang16

Very odd: there is no direct connection from A52/SP46/SS33 to A4 at Fiera Milano (the fair!):

https://www.google.de/maps/dir/45.5...5.5198792,9.0812586,15z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e0!5i1


----------



## pccvspw999

Wolfgang16 said:


> Very odd: there is no direct connection from A52/SP46/SS33 to A4 at Fiera Milano (the fair!):
> 
> https://www.google.de/maps/dir/45.5...5.5198792,9.0812586,15z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e0!5i1


Coming from Turin the connection is indirect, You have to take A50 first. After Expo there will be direct connection. Coming from Venice it has always been there.
At the end You can reach the fair ground from and to any direction of A4.
There isn't the space for making a complete interchange A4/SS33/fair ground: A4<->SS33 works only west-bound.


----------



## Verso

The other direction.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Here you can see the new A52 north of Milano. I thought they were going to duplicate SP46, but they built a new alignment. The imagery is dated 3 April 2015.


The abandoned SP46 will be used as cyclelane.



Verso said:


> The other direction.


The problem is solved if you turn before:
https://www.google.si/maps/dir/45.5...96642,14z/data=!4m5!4m4!1m0!1m1!4e1!3e0?hl=sl


----------



## Wolfgang16

My understanding was that A52 is a bypass for overloaded A4, but with this bad connection this is not the case. Nobody coming from Turin and going to East of Milan would take the route proposed above.

I can't believe that there was not enough space. The whole area has been completely new designed together with the fair. And in the neighborhood of a fair planners must expect drivers not familiar with the road network.

I remember once I got stuck at that roundabout with SS33 on a bridge high above it. Several roads underneath SS33 seem to connect to A4 which can already be seen from there. I found the exit to Milan which even underpasses A4, but not to Turin. I couldn't believe that and went 3 times around the roundabout. With a navigator I would have believed that thing fools me. :nuts:


----------



## pccvspw999

I'don't think it was planned to be a by-pass for traffic Turin-Venice passing through. Of course it will be, more as a "safety valve" than a real by-pass. Anyway the connec tion from and to Turin of A4 and SS33/A52 is where it's shown in the post before Yours: using a short stretch of A50. If I guess which roundabout You meen, there is no need to get on it.
The "Pero" interchange was planned mainly to connect A4 with local roads and therefore with parkings at the east entrance of the fair ground. It's quite complex, if there was enough space it would have been quite more simple: town at southside of A4, railway depot on the north side, and then the fair itself which had to be that wide. Althogh SS33/A52 and A4 are at their nearest point, but almost parallel. Not a good situation to make a complete and safe interchange between to motorways.

Never the less: A52 will drain traffic to and from A8, and also traffic getting on A4 off the roads coming north of Milan. These flows are enough to bring A52 to it's limits, without traffic coming from A4


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Google Earth also shows they are expanding the short A52 / SS35 combined segment at Paderno Dugnano. 

A52 could be a reasonable alternative in case A4 is congested. It's not really far out of the way compared to bypasses of some other cities (try N104 around Paris, it's almost twice the length of the regular route).


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi




----------



## brick84

*A56 Tangenziale di Napoli*


----------



## verreme

^^ Amazing! The expressway system in Napoli is very complex and the interchanges are so compact. It almost looks like Japan. Shame that the merging lanes are such rubbish.


----------



## brick84

*A3 Napoli-Reggio Calabria*

_from Castellammare di Stabia to Portici (province of Napoli)_


----------



## hofburg

brick84 said:


> *A56 Tangenziale di Napoli*


good god, that traffic!  great roads though.


----------



## g.spinoza

According to newspaper "La Repubblica", in Sicily 5,000 km out of the total 20,000 km of roads are closed or otherwise not usable.

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/20...e_e_chiusa_una_strada_ogni_quattro-116877376/


----------



## Suburbanist

All _autostrade_ in or into Liguria are interesting. Can't think of any single dull sector.


----------



## Verso

I also drove on A7 once (driving from Milano to Genova some 20 years ago). We needed like 5 minutes to overtake someone.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

A6 is more curvy in my opinion.


----------



## Verso

I don't know, never driven there.


----------



## g.spinoza

I did. It is curvy, but in my opinion not as scary as A7 (or the north part of A15).


----------



## cinxxx

I drove the A15 at night, at around 1am, to La Spezia 3 weeks ago, but since I was almost the only car around, I could use the whole road for myself. Otherwise it would have been a very sporty ride. On the return trip northbound I didn't feel it to be that hard to drive.


----------



## pccvspw999

verreme said:


> Wow. Closest to my concept of driving nirvana I've seen on video so far.


Someone else was also searching his driving nirvana and got "jailed":






CHILDREN, DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!


----------



## brick84

Verso said:


> ^^ Nice ruins, but come on, this isn't a tourist thread, these roads are quite irrelevant for the Italian highway system.


There were someone else which posted photos about trips through the mountain roads... :dunno:


----------



## JB Colbert

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> A6 is more curvy in my opinion.


The A6 is curvy only the Southbound stretch, from Ceva to Savona; the Northbound stretch from Savona to Ceva is newer and less curvy than Southbound stretch.
The remaining stretch is a normal Highway.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

A10
Third lane is really needed,especially in summer.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Nice video from that guy, I can't stand another video with that song on loop mode though.


----------



## brick84

*A58 TEEM*











http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/...-video-in-galleria-e-non-solo-7670/immagine-5


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

narkelion said:


> Yeah, except for what'd be underneath that. And for the people living in the nearby buildings. :lol:


Actually there is something similar in Milan, called Cavalcavia Monte Ceneri

And people hate it


----------



## astey

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Actually there is something similar in Milan, called Cavalcavia Monte Ceneri
> 
> And people hate it


 Hi,
What is the right name of this road?

Cavalcavia Monte Ceneri
or
Cavalcavia Renato Serra - Monte Ceneri

(This is the subject of my next video)

Thank you!


----------



## Lolaz

A7 is very cool


----------



## Suburbanist

astey said:


> Hi,
> What is the right name of this road?
> 
> Cavalcavia Monte Ceneri
> or
> Cavalcavia Renato Serra - Monte Ceneri
> 
> (This is the subject of my next video)
> 
> Thank you!


Viale Certosa divides Viale Renato Serra from Viale Monte Ceneri.


----------



## bewu1

I am in Italy for first time and some local particularities are still new to me 
Does someone know the exact number of roundabouts in Italy ? and
Which is the biggest roundabout in Italy?


----------



## Suburbanist

bewu1 said:


> I am in Italy for first time and some local particularities are still new to me
> Does someone know the exact number of roundabouts in Italy ? and
> Which is the biggest roundabout in Italy?


If they completed a small sector and built an overpass, this would be it


----------



## italystf

^^It wouldn't be a roundabout either, as the ring is bi-directional.
The biggest roundabout in Italy is probably this one near Bari:
https://www.google.it/maps/place/Ba...2!3m1!1s0x1347e86038baa521:0x46018af2c9966bfb
Diameter is around 600 meters.


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ As you may consider that road as a "roundabout" then you have to deal with the fact that A90 (GRA) is much more bigger, and it's complete.
A90 the ultimative roundabout!


----------



## g.spinoza

Florence and Palermo are not directly comparable, two very different environments 

I found Naples worse than Palermo in terms of behavior, but I only drove in Palermo...


----------



## cinxxx

^^I know, I just wrote the biggest cities I drove in Italy (still have to visit Milan or Turin). And places like Genua, Verona, Mestre, Padova, Trieste I found ok


----------



## keber

^^ Palermo is something completely different. Look at all sides at all times. Don't assume anything. Outside Palermo it is quite better but it is still Sicily.


----------



## brick84

cinxxx said:


> ^^When I drove in Florence and Rome, I found them difficult, but not because of the driving style of cars, but because of those scooters all over the place coming from all directions. I also survived driving in Tirana, so I guess I would survive Palermo too, only that I won't have enough time to really adapt there while staying just one day. But maybe the fact that it will be a Sunday will help and so much crazy traffic .


I guess too. 



cinxxx said:


> But we plan to do a 9-10 days Sicily only trip next year in May


Wise choose.
Try to see such more as possibile. 
And if you need advise, don't worry to ask in sicilian thread.


----------



## Lion007

Can you show me plans for this conctruction. I have found it one month ago, but now I can not find in again.


----------



## g.spinoza

Maybe you can start by telling us where is this located...

EDIT: Found it:
http://www.commissariopedemontana.it/commissariopedemontana/tracciato.jsp#nogo


----------



## Autobahn-mann

Lion007 said:


> Can you show me plans for this conctruction. I have found it one month ago, but now I can not find in again.


It's the initial part of "Venetian foothill" higway, in constuction. It be also the extend of Montecchio Maggiore's bypass


----------



## Lion007

g.spinoza said:


> Maybe you can start by telling us where is this located...
> 
> EDIT: Found it:
> http://www.commissariopedemontana.it/commissariopedemontana/tracciato.jsp#nogo


Tnx:cheers: I found it.


----------



## g.spinoza

Region Lombardy just approved the definitive project for the direct connection A4-A35 near Brescia. Now the Infrastructure Ministry must confirm the approval.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^Connection A4 / A35 through SS1dir is quite strange and complicated.  There is  enough place to built new interchange


----------



## g.spinoza

Ss1dir?


----------



## italystf

It's SS11dir (southern bypass of Brescia).


----------



## g.spinoza

Ah ok... It's not "dir" by the way, it's just ss11, or better, now it's sp bs 11,even though nobody calls it that way...


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Ah ok... It's not "dir" by the way, it's just ss11, or better, now it's sp bs 11,even though nobody calls it that way...


So, Google Maps is wrong.


----------



## Luki_SL

italystf said:


> It's SS11dir (southern bypass of Brescia).


My mistake  SS11dir


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*

_new 'Renazza' tunnel_












by Ondanews, su Flickr


----------



## brick84

*Reggio Emilia (Emilia-Romagna region)*

_A1 with new new 'Mediopadana' highspeed railway station_













by august_brain, su Flickr


----------



## g.spinoza

Very bad weather in Northern Italy caused the small river Nure to overflow and destroy part of the provincial route 654 in province Piacenza:



















location:
https://www.google.it/maps/place/29...0x478097d63eb650b9:0x970218459125665b!6m1!1e1


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's no quick fix!


----------



## bigic

Maybe the 5 Star Movement will build an alternative route?


----------



## Lion007

Can you tell me please, where in Italy is this bridge?


----------



## -Pino-

Isn't that the A1 at Reggio Emilia?


----------



## brick84

*Highway A18 Siracusa-Gela
*
_the works for the new lots from Rosolini (SR) to Modica (RG) going on_



here the works for the new viaduct 'Scardina' near Ispica (RG)


----------



## italystf

-Pino- said:


> Isn't that the A1 at Reggio Emilia?


It's definitively not this one.


----------



## 1772

Is there or has there ever been plans of a highway linking Genoa with Parma and Padua?

If one wants to go between these cities, there is no clear and straight road; but this would make sense and also boost paneuropean trade. 

Any thoughts?


----------



## F81

Genoa to Parma is impossible, too rough a territory to cut through. Parma-A22 Modena to Brenner shortcut has been proposed. A Cremona-Mantua link has been proposed too but hasn't really been considered yet.
The latter would allow a straighter route Genoa-A7/26-Piacenza-Cremona-Mantua-Verona-Padua.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## g.spinoza

Lion007 said:


> Can you tell me please, where in Italy is this bridge?


It's A1, but further south, near Montevarchi:
https://www.google.it/maps/@43.5252718,11.5935946,875m/data=!3m1!1e3

http://firenze.repubblica.it/cronac...l_arno_tra_montevarchi_e_terranuova-98670684/

It's a bridge over Arno river and A1, for a regional road.


----------



## Lion007

^^Tanks for a help. I found this bridge.


----------



## brick84

*A18 Messina-Catania*

_After heavy rainfall landslide iterrupted temporaney the highway_


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is that an actual motorway? I mean, even before the slide?


----------



## narkelion

It is.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Were there road works? I mean, there appears to be only one lane, no road markings at all and no decent separation between the lane and workzone.


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> Were there road works? I mean, there appears to be only one lane, no road markings at all and no decent separation between the lane and workzone.


This sector of A18 has the other carriageway at a slightly below level, that is why you don't see it. They were probably cleaning part of the landslide, that is why you don't see the markings.

This happened near Giardini Naxos.

The area is unstable and the only long-term solutions to a couple of this weak points is to built tunnels instead of relying on stabilization walls. Fortunately, they learned their lesson when designing A20.


----------



## brick84

*A19 Palermo-Catania*

next investments


----------



## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

_new lots from Rosolini to Modica_

update works








































source: www.lasicilia.it


----------



## brick84

*A19 Palermo-Catania*

Update works on the damaged viaduct and alternative road




Fabion54 said:


> Foto di ieri... 06 Ottobre dal sito Anas:


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*

_Stretch from Scilla (RC) to Villa San Giovanni (RC)_






mistikos said:


>


by _*mistikos*_


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How's the widening of A14 around Ancona going?


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> How's the widening of A14 around Ancona going?


I read that in the next few nights there will be total closure of that stretch, I guess they are putting overpasses in place. Last time I passed there (end of August) one of the tunnels looked almost finished but the other one was still behind...


----------



## brick84

*Highway A30 Caserta-Salerno (Campania)*

_from Pagani/Nocera to junction from A16_




stabia said:


>



_from Pagani/Nocera to Salerno_




stabia said:


>


----------



## stabia

Also this has a variable road-sign (speed limit in this case), another photo taken myself:

*Speed control with "Vergilius" system*


----------



## brick84

*Anas opened to traffic new 'Tangenziale sud' in Bergamo, Lombardy*





































































































source: http://www.stradeanas.it/index.php?/content/index/arg/bg_tangenziale_sud_galleria


----------



## brick84

^^


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

I'm a bit disappointed.

I thought that it would have been a 2+2 lanes stretch


----------



## Coccodrillo

Mauz® said:


> The problem it's not the kind of electronic board used. The problem is HOW it's used!


Once Is saw one saying "_do not get distracted (when driving)_".

It's logic to distract drivers telling them not do discract themselves, isn't it? :nuts:


----------



## brick84

*A18 Messina-Catania*

_here near Taormina (ME)_















by caio quintino, su Flickr


----------



## italystf

Coccodrillo said:


> Once Is saw one saying "_do not get distracted (when driving)_".
> 
> It's logic to distract drivers telling them not do discract themselves, isn't it? :nuts:


Other say: "If you're tired, stop in a rest area" or "Make a stop every two hours". Safety advice or advertisement for Autogrill?

I think they should shut down VMSs when there's nothing relevant to warn about (accidents, traffic jams, road works, bad weather), instead of filling them with non-essential info that distracts drivers and makes them ignoring VMSs even when they're useful.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

People know distracted driving is dangerous, but think it'll happen to others and they are in control while using a smartphone. 

I don't think this will really change unless enforcement goes up considerably. But Europe has moved away from highway patrols in favor of speed cameras. The chances of getting caught is very small. You read about people getting caught having driven 20 or 30 years without a driver's license.


----------



## italystf

Chances of getting caught while using mobile phones are very slim compared to other violations such speeding, DUI and parking violations.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

brick84 said:


> *A18 Messina-Catania*
> _here near Taormina (ME)_
> by caio quintino, su Flickr


Wild grass invasion! :lol: :bash:


----------



## mistikos

brick84 said:


> *A18 Messina-Catania*
> 
> _here near Taormina (ME)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by caio quintino, su Flickr


It's similar to a big forest! :nuts:


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> People know distracted driving is dangerous, but think it'll happen to others and they are in control while using a smartphone.
> 
> I don't think this will really change unless enforcement goes up considerably. But Europe has moved away from highway patrols in favor of speed cameras. The chances of getting caught is very small. You read about people getting caught having driven 20 or 30 years without a driver's license.


Considering also the fact that Italy's approving a law for rendering "driving without a driver's license" an administrative offence instead of a felony.
http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/...-senza-patente-verso-la-depenalizzazione-8507


----------



## italystf

mistikos said:


> It's similar to a big forest! :nuts:


That's a common problem in Sicily. When I went there, I travelled the whole A18 and parts of A19 and A20 and I noticed that in many parts the hard shoulder was unusable because obstructed by wild weeds and also plants in the median were overgrown and unmantained.
I even spotted a fire in the median of A18, likely caused by a driver who threw a lit cigarette butt out of his window.


----------



## Insulateshipper

italystf said:


> That's a common problem in Sicily. When I went there, I travelled the whole A18 and parts of A19 and A20 and I noticed that in many parts the hard shoulder was unusable because obstructed by wild weeds and also plants in the median were overgrown and unmantained.
> I even spotted a fire in the median of A18, likely caused by a driver who threw a lit cigarette butt out of his window.


I propose to close all the motorway in sicily. hno: They are not abble to do something correct in this region...


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ maybe there are to close the entire Sicily!


----------



## brick84

Insulateshipper said:


> I propose to close all the motorway in sicily. hno: They are not abble to do something correct in this region...





Autobahn-mann said:


> ^^ maybe there are to close the entire Sicily!


This is what you think.
The fact is different.


----------



## Insulateshipper

Autobahn-mann said:


> ^^ maybe there are to close the entire Sicily!


:lol:^^


----------



## Insulateshipper

brick84 said:


> This is what you think.
> The fact is different.


I'm joking of cors Sicily have very good otroway too and a large expressway network. But in some area of the island they should have a better maintenance. that's my opinion.


----------



## italystf

Yes, in fact the problem of Sicilian roads is mostly quality-related, not quantity-related, although a motorway along the southern coast and a proper bypass of Palermo would help.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They had a couple of bridge collapses / subsidences as well. Maintenance seems to be a problem in Sicily.


----------



## Insulateshipper

italystf said:


> Yes, in fact the problem of Sicilian roads is mostly quality-related, not quantity-related, although a motorway along the southern coast and a proper bypass of Palermo would help.


Before to build new road, they need a real diagnostic of the road network in this region in order to repair and maintain the exiting roads in safetly condition. Same for railways. Same for a lot of things... :nuts:


----------



## brick84

ChrisZwolle said:


> They had a couple of bridge collapses / subsidences as well. Maintenance seems to be a problem in Sicily.


One of them collapsed by a landslide, not by no maintenance. Anyway it's true.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> They had a couple of bridge collapses / subsidences as well. *Maintenance seems to be a problem in Sicily.*


That's exactly the point. Roads there are being built and then left alone for years and even decades. Time does its job. However there have been cases of highways built already with poor standards. The part of A20 that opened in 2004 appeared already in a poor shape just 5-7 years later.
The bridge over Simeto river on SS114 had been closed for a long time because of structural issues. I went there in summer 2009. That bridge was closed, the Catania-Siracusa motorway was still to be opened, so we had to make a long inland detour to go from Catania to Siracusa (around two hours between the two cities). Our driver tried to take a shortcut via a country road and we ended up in a barely passable road that only had some remains left of the old asphalt pavement.
Even where there aren't serious issues, most Sicilian roads look quite rundown, with bad pavement, vanishing road markings, old discoloured signs and edges full of wild weeds and garbage.
Another problem in Sicily is the lack of alternate routes in case of road closures. In many cases, the second available route between two towns is a narrow, winding and poorly-maintained mountain road, unsuitable for heavy traffic.


----------



## brick84

italystf said:


> That's exactly the point. Roads there are being built and then left alone for years and even decades. Time does its job. However there have been cases of highways built already with poor standards. The part of A20 that opened in 2004 appeared already in a poor shape just 5-7 years later.


The very problem is the managing body: Consorzio Autostrade Siciliane.




italystf said:


> The bridge over Simeto river on SS114 had been closed for a long time because of structural issues. I went there in summer 2009. That bridge was closed, the Catania-Siracusa motorway was still to be opened, so we had to make a long inland detour to go from Catania to Siracusa (around two hours between the two cities). Our driver tried to take a shortcut via a country road and we ended up in a barely passable road that only had some remains left of the old asphalt pavement.


:?
It has been closed after over 60 years (Mussolini opened it) to be re-build with modern standards.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Variante di Valico*

The Aglio - Barberino segment (6.1 km) of the Variante di Valico project (A1 Bologna - Firenze) is reported to have opened to traffic today. 

If I understand the schematics, they built a new carriageway with 3 lanes for southbound traffic, and rededicated the existing autostrada with 2+2 lanes for northbound traffic. 

The cost was € 262 million which seems quite high for 6 km of new carriageway, even with all the tunnels and viaducts (€ 43 million/km).


----------



## Suburbanist

I think this was posted before, but still is the best "overview" of _Variante di Valico_ project. Video is 17 months old, so obviously the road, being almost finished now, is not on that state. Recently opened segment visible from 2:10





Here the schematics


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> The cost was € 262 million which seems quite high for 6 km of new carriageway, even with all the tunnels and viaducts (€ 43 million/km).


Viaduct Aglio is quite expensive: 80 m high, 2 spans 77 m each and 3 spans 148 m each.


----------



## ukraroad

No additional investmwnts in Sicily at all??? What the heck don't they invest in the poorest region in Italy???:bash: Not a cent dotation??? Afraid of Etna eruption ??


----------



## sponge_bob

Is the Variante project now complete????


----------



## MichiH

^^ :? It's not yet opened for traffic...


----------



## Fab87

ukraroad said:


> No additional investmwnts in Sicily at all??? What the heck don't they invest in the poorest region in Italy???:bash: Not a cent dotation??? Afraid of Etna eruption ??


Joking?

Sicily has a pretty decent motorway infrastructure (A18, A19, A20, A29 A29dir for a total stretch of 746km) and I don't see saturation in any of these routes.
I reckon for instance that A29 Palermo-Mazara del Vallo is one of the least busy italian highways, plus it is non-tolled.

I know they think they should get more from Rome, but what they need is better local governance and extension of tolls rather than new public investments.


----------



## mistikos

*My last 5 videos about Highway A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria taken by me on Sunday 6th December:*

From Cosenza to Rogliano





From Rogliano to Altilia





From Altilia to Falerna





From the viaduct over the Randace river to Pizzo Calabro





From Pizzo Calabro to Lamezia Terme


----------



## brick84

Fab87 said:


> Joking?
> 
> Sicily has a pretty decent motorway infrastructure (A18, A19, A20, A29 A29dir for a total stretch of 746km) and I don't see saturation in any of these routes.
> I reckon for instance that A29 Palermo-Mazara del Vallo is one of the least busy italian highways, plus it is non-tolled.
> 
> I know they think they should get more from Rome, but what they need is better local governance and extension of tolls rather than new public investments.


I agree.

I think the only saturation is onto Catania's Tangenziale and for this reason there's a plan for the construction of the third lane.




ukraroad said:


> No additional investmwnts in Sicily at all??? What the heck don't they invest in the poorest region in Italy???:bash: Not a cent dotation??? Afraid of Etna eruption ??


Waiting for:

- complete of A18 Siracusa-Gela (from Modica to Gela)
- new 'Superstrada Ragusa-Catania';
- Palermo's Tangenziale
- Third lane in Catania's Tangenziale
- Gela's Tangenziale

and, new promis, upgrade of A19 Palermo-Catania:


----------



## ukraroad

i wonder about Messina bridge. Etna's awoken few days ago, so what are the odds the bridge to Sicily will be built like to 2022? Unluckily they have to know about the seismical activity. Is there any progress on it since Berlusconi was put off office?


----------



## italystf

This project had been cancelled indefinitely after the fall of Berlusconi government. It probably won't be built in this half of the century.


----------



## ukraroad

Boats going on the strait till 2060?? :ancient:


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> ^^ :? It's not yet opened for traffic...


Part of it was opened last 5th December, the rest *should* open before Christmas...


----------



## Suburbanist

The opening of Variante di Valico will be an extra incentive for me to drive south again, last visits to Italy were limited to the surroundings of Conegliano / Treviso.


----------



## brick84

ukraroad said:


> i wonder about Messina bridge. Etna's awoken few days ago, so what are the odds the bridge to Sicily will be built like to 2022? Unluckily they have to know about the seismical activity. Is there any progress on it since Berlusconi was put off office?


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=129194607#post129194607


----------



## Insulateshipper

MESSINA | Tangenziale - Uscita V.le Giostra / Annunziata (Futuro svincolo Ponte di Messina)









Crazy bridges in Messina


----------



## mistikos

^^The "Ritiro" bridge will be redone in the other carriageways...


----------



## italystf

Insulateshipper said:


> MESSINA | Tangenziale - Uscita V.le Giostra / Annunziata (Futuro svincolo Ponte di Messina)
> 
> Crazy bridges in Messina


Very impressive, indeed, although I wouldn't like to live beneath them.
It's unusual to see elevated urban highways being built in present-day Europe.


----------



## brick84

*Highway Catania-Siracusa*

"Driving to the smoking mountain"




(taken by me yesterday)






image share


----------



## Suburbanist

A video commemorating the 50 years of A-1.






nice video, yet make me cringes all these workers on dangerous viaduct sites without helmets or safety hooks.


----------



## brick84

*A3 Napoli-Reggio Calabria*

_New junction of Serre (VV)_






mistikos said:


> source: http://www.totospa.it


----------



## mistikos

^^Excuse me, but the new junction of Serre is in the VV district, in Calabria. This junction has been modernized since 2005.


----------



## mistikos

A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria: New "Serralunga" tunnel (opened since 2004)









Source: http://www.totospa.it/fullscreengallery/progetti_stradali.html#/70


----------



## stabia

A special movie made by me today, in places where i live.... 

*HD*


----------



## italystf

^^That's mostly not roads-related, you'll probably find a more suitable subforum to share it.


----------



## stabia

italystf said:


> ^^That's mostly not roads-related, you'll probably find a more suitable subforum to share it.


For example? 

edit: i've found this


----------



## mistikos

*Highway A1 - Variante di Valico - New Base tunnel*



Bradipo said:


>


----------



## mistikos

*My last video about Highway A3 Napoli-Reggio Calabria, from Cosenza to Rende on the north carriageway:*


----------



## intersezioni

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiMRpgl1idg

The new highway- VARIANTE DI VALICO Bologna-Firenze


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Same video, embedded






It is a great day for Italian infrastructure!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The third lane on A14 Senigalla - Ancona-Nord also opened to traffic today: http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/...rd-inaugurati-i-20-km-della-terza-corsia-8640


----------



## Suburbanist

A time-lapse of the last 2 weeks of works, on the race to finish before Christmas driving season


----------



## sponge_bob

Suburbanist said:


> A time-lapse of the last 2 weeks of works, on the race to finish before Christmas driving season.


Thats cool. When will all the Variante be open?


----------



## Suburbanist

sponge_bob said:


> Thats cool. When will all the Variante be open?


It has been opened today, all of it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think the widening south of Barberino is not yet completed?


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think the widening south of Barberino is not yet completed?


That is not part of the Variente di Valico project (neither is the long-completed widening between Casalecchio and Sasso Marconi)


----------



## x-type

not it is about to wait to see how it will be functional in reality when the first crowds appear (i guess they intend to use the system of redirecting certain parts of traffic to old, or to new route, depending of traffic volulmes, right?)


----------



## stabia

Suburbanist said:


> @stabia, speaking of your Youtube channel, I think your videos are great. There wasn't anyone living in your region and making good videos over there.
> 
> Do you have any local information on works to complete/finish SS87NC? Both the sector with one carriageway in Fratamaggiore and the tunnels to he ring road?


Thanks for the compliments, in fact in my region there is no one else who makes videos of my gender.

However for SS87 I could not tell you anything because I live in the province of Naples and I was never interested in the roads of the province of Benevento. 

I only know that they are working very hard on this road and with a quick glance at the site ANAS.it (manager of the road) I saw these works:

*From km 78.573 to km 105.850*
SS.87 - WORKS OF MAINTENANCE FOR STRENGTHENING AND STRUCTURAL RESTORATION OF WORKS OF ART MORE STRONGLY DETERIORATED SHOWN INSIDE THE PROJECT WITH CONSTRUCTION JOINT ON DECKS.

*From km 81.500 to km 81.500*
S.S. 87 AT KM 81 + 500RNLAVORI OF MAINTENANCE PE CROSSING THE RECONSTRUCTION OF A CONCRETE. STRONGLY deteriorated PRESENTING THROUGH INJURY OF SIGNIFICANT ENTITY

*From km 102.720 to km 102.720*
S.S. AT 87 KM 102 + 720RNLAVORI OF MAINTENANCE FOR STRENGTHENING AND STRUCTURAL RESTORATION OF VIADUCT `` WITHOUT NAME`` STRONGLY DETERIORATED

*From km 105.350 to km 105.350*
S.S. AT 87 KM 105 + 350RNLAVORI OF MAINTENANCE FOR STRENGTHENING AND STRUCTURAL RESTORATION OF VIADUCT `` WITHOUT NAME`` STRONGLY DETERIORATED


----------



## MichiH

*Expected upcoming expressway openings*

*SS534:* Spezzano Albanese-Terme – Sibari Marina 14km (November 2013 to 24th December 2015) [2nd c/w] – project – map

The workers have been on strike since 18th December complaining of non-payment of monthly salaries for October and November

I couldn't find any info about the progress of the works but it seems not to be opened on schedule. Maybe 2016...


*SS199:* west of Olbia-South (SS131DCN) – Olbia-Airport 2.5km (June 2012 to December 2015) – project – map

I couldn't find any updated info. Still expected to be opened... next week? :dunno:


*SS640:* Agrigento – Canicatti 8km (March 2009 to 2015) – project – map
*SS640:* Cannemaschi – Caltanissetta (A19) 34km (April 2012 to July 2016) – project – map



g.spinoza said:


> SS640 Agrigento-Canicattì is mostly open, except for 2 km near Agrigento and for a short stretch near Racalmuto.





g.spinoza said:


> What's your source? Italian forum or news article? Is it possible to find out when the opened sections were opened and when the remaining sections should be opened?
> The Agrigento section should be this one. I think the Racalmut section has also a length of 2km.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://mobilita.org/2015/04/29/agrigento-ss-640-prende-forma-la-galleria-caltanissetta/
> 
> I'm not sure about the dates, maybe I'll dig a little into the Italian thread.
Click to expand...

Could you dig into the Italian thread? Which sections are in service et cetera...


The following new expressway sections are expected to open in early 2016 (it's possible that it's already out-dated :dunno:

*SS318:* Valfabbrica – Pianello 8.5km (2009 to January 2016) – project – map
*SS597:* Codrongianos (SS131) – Ploaghe 2.4km (September 2013 to January 2016) – project – map
*SP1 BT:* Andria-North-East – Trani-North (SS16bis) 7.5km (January 2014 to January 2016) – ? – map
*Pedemontana Veneta:* Thiene (A31) – Breganze 5.7km (November 2011 to Early 2016) – project – map
*SS96 Barese:* north of Altamura – Mellitto 10km (December 2013 to March 2016) – ? – map
*SS597:* Monti/Telti – Enas 7.2km (December 2013 to March 2016) – project – map


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ The only ones I know out-of-the-box, that is, without having to search, are SS318 (April 2016), and Pedemontana Veneta which will not open in 2016.

I read recently that SS640 is having legal troubles, I don't know more.
I promise that I will put more attention to the projects next year


----------



## narkelion

What about some stretches of the Quadrilatero? I read that the Umbrian part of SS76 should open soon!


----------



## Suburbanist

stabia said:


> Thanks for the compliments, in fact in my region there is no one else who makes videos of my gender.
> 
> However for SS87 I could not tell you anything because I live in the province of Naples and I was never interested in the roads of the province of Benevento.


I was referring to SS87*NC* south of the Asse Meriano all the way to Miano, which I think is entirely within Napoli province


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> and Pedemontana Veneta which will *not open in 2016*.


Are you sure? Delayed again? That's what you've reported in September 2015:



g.spinoza said:


> Pedemontana Veneta is postponed to the *beginning of 2016*.





g.spinoza said:


> I read recently that SS640 is having legal troubles, I don't know more.
> I promise that I will put more attention to the projects next year


Thanks .



narkelion said:


> What about some stretches of the Quadrilatero? I read that the Umbrian part of SS76 should open soon!


Which section? That's my latest info (November 2015):



italystf said:


> Updates about Quadrilatero project in Central Italy
> 
> SS77: Foligno (SS3) – Colfiorito 19km (November 2009 to spring\summer 2016)
> SS77: Bavareto – Pontelatrave 8km (November 2009 to spring\summer 2016)
> SS318: Valfabbrica – Pianello 8.5km (2009 to spring 2016)
> SS318: Casacastalda – Valfabbrica 6.8km (< 2007 to summer\fall 2016)
> SS76: Fossato di Vico – Cancelli di Fabriano 7km (Early 2009 to >=2018)
> SS76: Albacina – Serra San Quirico 11km (Early 2009 to 2018)





g.spinoza said:


> Updated opening dates:
> Casacastalda-Valfabbrica - end spring 2016
> Pianello-Casacastalda - January 2016


----------



## mistikos

*Highway A3 SA-RC, photos taken by me one hour ago*


----------



## narkelion

MichiH said:


> Which section? That's my latest info (November 2015):


I read here: http://www.perugiatoday.it/economia/perugia-ancona-consegna-2016-regione-umbria-anas-marini.html (in italian) that the Umbrian part of SS318 will open in first semester 2016, with a first part of it opened by January (but I ignore which one).

I'm talking about the Pianello - Valfabbrica - Casacastalda stretch.


----------



## g.spinoza

About SPV, I have recently read they hope to open this year only a short stretch near Bassano. I'll dig more, but there aren't many info available on this road


----------



## stabia

Suburbanist said:


> I was referring to SS87*NC* south of the Asse Meriano all the way to Miano, which I think is entirely within Napoli province


The section where the SS 87 "_Sannitica_" takes on the name of *SS87NC* (in province of Naples) is not managed by _ANAS_ but from the "_Metropolitan City of Naples_" (which does not perform a good road maintenance like _ANAS_), I might look on their website some information.


----------



## astey

ChrisZwolle said:


> The first videos of new infrastructure are often not the best. They are often handheld or a dashcam at 1x speed, which in my opinion are super-boring, unless it features an accident or something.
> 
> For a good video you need good weather and somebody who's actually willing to take the extra steps necessary to get a good quality video, such as eliminating reflection, a clean windshield, not filming into the sun and have good lighting conditions (which is difficult this time of the year). I'm sure someone like Astey Highways will make a good video at one point.


In fact, yes... I plan to catch the new A1var next spring in both directions (probably end of march-april), in order to have better lighting conditions (I'm sure what you understand what I'm talking about  ). And maybe, the lasts works will be finished.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Filming southbound this time of the year is the worst. Due to long shadows you can only do it around midday, but then you're driving full into the sun. An alternative is filming in cloudy conditions, but videos like that are often less colorful. 

Generally speaking, filming northbound in sunny conditions always gives the best lighting and coloring.


----------



## -Pino-

x-type said:


> not it is about to wait to see how it will be functional in reality when the first crowds appear (i guess they intend to use the system of redirecting certain parts of traffic to old, or to new route, depending of traffic volulmes, right?)


Interested to see how that will work out indeed. The pictures of the grand opening that I saw as well as post #8702 above included pictures of the signage at the junction between old and new as you drive Southbound. That was static signage, with just dynamic arrows above each lane to indicate lane closures (and thus a potential closure of either option). But of course those pictures did not reveal whether there was any dynamic signage placed beforehand.

Anyway, the old route is signposted as A1 Firenze / Rioveggio. The new route is signposted as A1 variante / E35 / Firenze / Badia. The old route leaves as a left exit. I wonder whether the combination of these (staying left and following A1) isn't going to lead to a lot of people considering the old road as the default position, whereas in reality I believe that the new road should be the default position thanks to its much better alignment.


----------



## x-type

^^
I am now actually thinking if I have ever seen dynamic direction signs in Italy at all...


----------



## narkelion

Not that I remember of, actually.


----------



## -Pino-

^^ At least I'm not assuming any big green signs on which the content can be changed. But the A1 is of course full of overhead DRIPs that give travel times. If there was a DRIP placed just before the junction between old and variante and that DRIP says that the variante is five minutes quicker, motorists would be much more likely to follow normal green signs that say 'variante' than without such a DRIP.

By the way, the motorways in Napoli used to have dynamic signs a long, long time ago. See http://cdn.freeforumzone.leonardo.it/discussione.aspx?idd=10123737. But I do not recall any dynamic green signs that are current.


----------



## x-type

they will definitely use existing panels to indicate optimal route. they are not placed along A1, but all over the italian motorway network, and they don't indicate only travelling times, but also other information like closed exits, works etc.


----------



## g.spinoza

When I was traveling along A21 and A1, on my way from Turin to Bologna on December 23rd (the day Variante opened and long queues formed) I found many dynamic panel suggesting alternative routes for vehicles heading south (A15/A12/A11)


----------



## narkelion

-Pino- said:


> ^^ At least I'm not assuming any big green signs on which the content can be changed. But the A1 is of course full of overhead DRIPs that give travel times. If there was a DRIP placed just before the junction between old and variante and that DRIP says that the variante is five minutes quicker, motorists would be much more likely to follow normal green signs that say 'variante' than without such a DRIP.


Don't know for sure, but there should be some of those on the way from Bologna to Firenze and from FI to BO.


----------



## Wolfgang16

GENIUS LOCI said:


> The opened branch is pretty useless IMO


May be the core part (the tunnel) is useless or may be there were environmental reasons for it, but the crossings at the eastern end of the new section were always congested. You can still see the queue warnings at the old section of tangenziale Varese. Varese needs a bypass, but it would have been better to make it toll free like in many other Italian cities.


----------



## g.spinoza

I just read on a local newspaper about a project to shorten A24 and A25 in central Italy by a total of almost 30 km, building three different bypass stretches:

- on the A24 a tunnel near Roviano, cutting 3 km and a series of 3 tunnels between Arsoli and Torano, cutting 3.5 km;

- on the A25, 3 tunnels between Cerchio and Bussi-Popoli, cutting 17.5 km.

You can go on this website, where there's a GMap applet showing the shortened road.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ Very interesting! Plans about the future droppen stretches?


----------



## keber

Why would that be necessary? Proposal is very costly and I don't see any economical sense, especially not with just 3 km shortening of A24.


----------



## WalkTheWorld

20 in total. Would be interesting to see actual plans. When you put "central Italy" and "tunnels" in the same sentence it could mean a small shortening bu travelling at a much lower altitude improving the service year round. You can't really imagine what it means to have an eastward-facing mountain range so close to the sea. The area is damn snowy.


----------



## g.spinoza

Those stretches are very frequently foggy and dangerous. Digging these tunnels can surely improve the safety of this motorway,


----------



## italystf

Will the maximum elevation be reduced much?


----------



## narkelion

Max elevation is at Tornimparte exit, 1100m above sea level. That part won't be modified from what I've seen.


----------



## Suburbanist

Snow patterns in the Apennines are complicated and subject to some very local elements, depending on the shape of local valleys. There is a large variance of avg. precipitation/snowfall at points at same altitude. Moreover, the Adriatic side has harsher climate than the Thyrrhenian with more storms.


----------



## keber

Looking at Google relief map I see that one tunnel could be long at least 10 km. Beside winter weather what are other reasons for such expensive change of alignment? From pictures it does not look very bad, like with A3 that really needed realignment on many places.


----------



## g.spinoza

I don't think they are going to build such a long tunnel, I think they'll dig several shorter ones.
What strikes me is that they planned this very expensive realignment but put aside the most important thing: direct connection A24-A14!


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> I don't think they are going to build such a long tunnel, I think they'll dig several shorter ones.


It is said 3 tunnels, that how much I can count them from elevation profile if I put an approximately straight line between Cerchio and Popoli, longest tunnel would be around 10 km long.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> What strikes me is that they planned this very expensive realignment but put aside the most important thing: direct connection A24-A14!


That would be an easy task, only a new trumpet interchange and a toll barrier would be needed.
https://www.google.it/maps/@42.7018241,13.9149302,15.75z
However, the Teramo - Giulianova section, although only 10 years old, is without hard shoulders, and that prevents it from being officially classificated as autostrada.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Not even a toll barrier is needed. A direct interchange between two motorways shouldn't require barriers.


----------



## narkelion

You need to transform the SS80dir into A24 though. That meaning change of ownership from ANAS to Strada dei Parchi.

And I don't think that motorway respect the road construction act for an A-category road.


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> You need to transform the SS80dir into A24 though. That meaning change of ownership from ANAS to Strada dei Parchi.


No problem with that, they're doing the same with SS1 Aurelia and A12, and there are many other examples (SP19 in Brescia and A21 racc, SS35 and A36...)



> And I don't think that motorway respect the road construction act for an A-category road.


Just enlarge it, it's surely less expensive than all this project.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Not even a toll barrier is needed. A direct interchange between two motorways shouldn't require barriers.


Then, they'll need to install toll booths at every exit on what is now SS80dir.


----------



## narkelion

g.spinoza said:


> No problem with that, they're doing the same with SS1 Aurelia and A12, and there are many other examples (SP19 in Brescia and A21 racc, SS35 and A36...)
> Just enlarge it, it's surely less expensive than all this project.


True, definitely. Enlarge and fix that damn pavimentation, that, if nothing has changed, made the road like a rollercoaster.



italystf said:


> Then, they'll need to install toll booths at every exit on what is now SS80dir.


This is true indeed, actually. I didn't think of this maybe not so small problem.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Then, they'll need to install toll booths at every exit on what is now SS80dir.


When they upgrade an expressway to motorway standard, they usually close down some of the junctions. It happened to the A21 dir (Fiorenzuola-Castelvetro) that used to have an intermediate junction (Cortemaggiore). Once completed, the A36 will have only 2 of the 5 junctions of current SS35. (Meda and Cesano, but not Seveso, Barlassina and Lentate south).


----------



## italystf

^^ That's increases local opposition, though.
A large share of nimbies who oppose the construction of A36 do that because they'll lose the toll-free, four-lanes connection between Milan and Meda.
That's what happened with A32, that operates an open-toll system to allow locals to use certain sections for free, but it's annoying for those who drive the entire lenght.


----------



## Suburbanist

Plate-reading tolls will be the future, it is somehow inevitable. If Pedemontana hadn't botched the first implementation so much, we'd be already seeing more of it.

I'm confident A3 will have a plate-based toll system when completed. Not certain, but confident (the ability of local politicians in Calabria and Basilicata to extract special benefits or provisions for public works/projects out of pity for historical poverty is unparalleled, second only to the anti-Italianism of Sud Tirol autonomous province)


----------



## italystf

A couple of years ago, ANAS proposed to introduce electronic tolling on toll-free motorways, like A3, A19, A29, GRA, A91, RA13, and maybe even on some expressways, but this plan wasn't implemented.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's technically not a problem to introduce license plate tolling throughout European toll roads. The limitations are currently mostly bureaucratic. If they can send you a speeding ticket, they can also send you a toll bill.


----------



## italystf

The problem is also psychological. Many people don't know how to pay, are lazy to learn how to do that, they fear fines for not having paid on time, etc...
A36, A59 and A60 have very low traffic exactly for this reason, many people simply avoid them. Having to pay the toll in an unusual way is a bigger deterrent than the toll itself, for many people.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> The problem is also psychological. Many people don't know how to pay, are lazy to learn how to do that, they fear fines for not having paid on time, etc...
> A36, A59 and A60 have very low traffic exactly for this reason, many people simply avoid them. Having to pay the toll in an unusual way is a bigger deterrent than the toll itself, for many people.


I don't think that's the reason why they're empty... I think it is just because they're insanely expensive...


----------



## General Maximus

So what to do with foreign number plates? As far as I know foreign registered vehicles can pass through the Dartford Crossing freely. Dartford Tolls are based on number plate recognition technology.


----------



## keber

I don't see a problem. As you can get a speeding ticket or congestion charge for your car from all over Europe so you could get toll bill.


----------



## narkelion

Of course you can. 

But people don't pay up for it, and I highly doubt italian highways would start an international lawsuit for 10€ of toll.


----------



## Suburbanist

narkelion said:


> Of course you can.
> 
> But people don't pay up for it, and I highly doubt italian highways would start an international lawsuit for 10€ of toll.


Most Italian autostrade are not through-routes for international traffic in the way Austrian, Swiss, German routes are.

Plate-based tolling would result in huge savings, just think of the administrative costs of the toll plazas, moving cash around, the space toll plazas take etc.


----------



## narkelion

I quote that. I'd use only telepass toll plazas and eliminate any other payment method. 

Or maybe, 9/10 telepass and 1/10 cash (automatic only).

I don't get why telepass lanes are only 2, max 3-4 in biggest toll plazas, while there are tons of manned and unmanned cash/card lanes. Nowadays more and more people are getting the telepass, so its lanes are becoming more and more trafficated, creating that absurd situation in which the payware, fastest and cheapest (for Autostrade SpA) way of paying the toll is worse than old-style manned booth.


----------



## g.spinoza

I never saw any congestion on telepass lanes in my entire life. 
Maybe you can encounter congestion before, when the motorway is still narrow, due to cash toll lanes, so that you can't come close to the booth even though you have telepass.


----------



## -Pino-

narkelion said:


> Nowadays more and more people are getting the telepass, so its lanes are becoming more and more trafficated, creating that absurd situation in which the payware, fastest and cheapest (for Autostrade SpA) way of paying the toll is worse than old-style manned booth.


It used to be the other way around for a pretty long time, though. When I lived in Italy in 2010, I had no Telepass but I would always pay by credit card. The ability to use the card lanes provided us with a much faster passage of the toll stations than the vast majority of users that stuck to the (much greater number of) cash lanes. But with old habits changing, and Telepass becoming easily available to foreigners too, it would only make sense to change the lane allocations. Though of course you have to be careful that the users of the cash lane will not create tailbacks that prevent quick access to the Telepass lanes.


----------



## narkelion

g.spinoza said:


> I never saw any congestion on telepass lanes in my entire life.
> Maybe you can encounter congestion before, when the motorway is still narrow, due to cash toll lanes, so that you can't come close to the booth even though you have telepass.


I have, many times in Roma Est.

Telepass lanes totally crowded for about a km, and other lanes totally free of traffic. 

Out of 17 lanes, only 4 are telepass lanes there. And telepass lane start a couple of km before the toll plaza.


----------



## narkelion

-Pino- said:


> It used to be the other way around for a pretty long time, though. When I lived in Italy in 2010, I had no Telepass but I would always pay by credit card. The ability to use the card lanes provided us with a much faster passage of the toll stations than the vast majority of users that stuck to the (much greater number of) cash lanes. But with old habits changing, and Telepass becoming easily available to foreigners too, it would only make sense to change the lane allocations. Though of course you have to be careful that the users of the cash lane will not create tailbacks that prevent quick access to the Telepass lanes.


You should simply dedicate one of the three lanes before the toll plaza to telepass users, maybe with a real curb, like a bus lane, for I don't know... 1,5/2km?


----------



## Highway89

Most toll plazas I know in Spain allow electronic payment (called Via-T here) in almost all lanes. Of course some lanes are reserved exclusively for Via-T, but you can still use it in cash/card lanes.

I don't think it would be expensive for Autostrade and the other companies to implement it, at least in the most saturated toll plazas.


----------



## -Pino-

^^ It's probably not too expensive to allow install electronic payment devices in the cash/card lanes. But I am not sure about its upside. A device user will in principle never use a mixed-use lane, because the latter are by nature slower. The mixed-use lane will always remain stop-and-go to some degree, as there will always be people in it that want to pay cash or use a card.


----------



## General Maximus

I've got one of these...










It works for me, and I normally get through quick, apart from the A4 in Milan where congestion because of these booths are the norm. Only downside of that card is that they get damaged rather quick, making them unsuitable for the machines to read.


----------



## Highway89

-Pino- said:


> ^^ It's probably not too expensive to allow install electronic payment devices in the cash/card lanes. But I am not sure about its upside. A device user will in principle never use a mixed-use lane, because the latter are by nature slower. The mixed-use lane will always remain stop-and-go to some degree, as there will always be people in it that want to pay cash or use a card.


Yes, but it also would allow "extra" Telepass lanes to be enabled/disabled if needed, just by turning mixed-use lanes into Telepass-only lanes, thus favouring Telepass users. That would however reduce the number of cash/card lanes and probably require installing dynamic message signs above each toll gate. In any case, it's still better than having a fixed number of Telepass lanes.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

General Maximus said:


> Only downside of that card is that they get damaged rather quick, making them unsuitable for the machines to read.


It sounds a bit strange to me.

I had got one of those cards and used it for maybe 20 years without any problem.
Maybe newer ones are more fragile :dunno:


----------



## g.spinoza

I use my atm card without problem. I think many foreign card are also accepted.


----------



## italystf

-Pino- said:


> Is there still anything going on at the SS106? Megalotto 3 would be a big one there, as it would complete the expressway between the A14 and the A3.


Contract for this section is already signed, but it's not clear when works will start. However I was talking about new motorways, this one will be an expressway.


----------



## -Pino-

^^ The upgraded parts of the Ionica are strada extraurbana principale, thus signed with a blue chopstick sign. Will do as motorway to me, also considering that most modern superstrade are being built at higher standards than many a motorway of old. 

In any event, the realisation of pending big high quality dual carriageway projects (Ionica, Quadrilatero, E78) excites me more than a few kilometers of A-road somewhere in the North. So thanks for the update.


----------



## x-type

what is actually happening with A12 at the moment? is it still ending at Rosignano? what is th esituation at the south? is it going to follow existing SS1 path, or it will have it's own route? what about tolls, is it gonna be free flow?


----------



## italystf

x-type said:


> what is actually happening with A12 at the moment? is it still ending at Rosignano? what is th esituation at the south? is it going to follow existing SS1 path, or it will have it's own route? what about tolls, is it gonna be free flow?


Probably it will be a new motorway between Tarquinia and Grosseto and between San Pietro in Palazzi (current end od A12 south of Rosignano) and Grosseto they will upgrade SS1. Toll will be either free-flow or open system (a toll booth with fixed rate every few dozens of kilometer).


----------



## MichiH

italystf said:


> Also, SP46 dual carriaggeway north of Milan (6km) will become A52 when widenings work are completed.


Is there any estimated completion/rededication date?


----------



## g.spinoza

I saw a recent estimate of 1st July 2016


----------



## g.spinoza

Recent phase of Italia viaduct demolition on A3:


----------



## mistikos

*Total Carpineta viaduct demolition on A3:*


----------



## brick84

*SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta*

update works





Fabion54 said:


>


----------



## italystf

*SS106 Jonica
*
http://www.stradeanas.it/index.php?/content/index/arg/106_ionica

Until some months ago ANAS webside showed a long-term plan to build a 2x2 expressway all the way from Taranto to Reggio Calabria.
Then, the section Sibari - Crotone appeared cancelled (it says only renovation of the existing 1+1 road).
With the last update (February 2016), also the Crotone - Reggio Calabria stretch was cancelled, except the Palizzi bypass, that is already U/C.
Beside this short section, only the Roseto - Sibari lot will be built (contract signed months ago but works not started yet).
However, a 2x2 connection between Taranto and Reggio Calabria will be possible via SS106, SS534 and A3.


----------



## brick84

hno:

Thanks to this Government.


----------



## brick84

*Highway A18 Siracusa-Gela*

_new lots Rosolini-Modica_

update works new Modica junction






brick84 said:


> invia immagini


----------



## brick84

^^

Here's the render


----------



## g.spinoza

According to Autostrade del Lazio SpA, a company created to build and manage the future motorway Rome-Latina, the construction tender was awarded to the italo-spanish company SIS, winning over Salini-Impregilo.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^The new motorway will be signed as "A6*( next free number)" ?


----------



## g.spinoza

Next free number, not counting dismissed A2 and A17, would be A37...


----------



## Suburbanist

*Bad news for A3*

We have very bad news for A3.

ANAS has downgraded its plans for the modernization works of the remaining 58km still not under construction. Instead of re-alignment and widening as seen elsewhere, they will spend € 1,1 billion to "rebuilt-in-place" the infrastructure, without widening of viaducts and/or new tunnels. 

Only a short 5-km single-carriageway will be built (with existing lanes becoming 4 northbound lanes). 

The government doesn't have the € 3,9 billion it would need to completely rebuild the remaining 58km in a new alignment. € 7,2 billion have already been spent on reconstruction/widening/realignment of A3.

This means these sectors will not have wide shoulders, and likely will be stuck with a 90 km/h speed limit, and some short-ish acceleration lanes on exits. :bash: 

Since they will spend more than one billion Euro on it, it is unlikely they will spend almost another 4 billion to rebuild as originally planned these sectors anytime within next 20 years.

This is the sweetened pill corporate video of ANAS about the cheap works they'll do





With this new solution, the final count of tunnels on A3 will be 194 (for 124,3km) and the count of bridges 479 (91,2km).

There are also 21km under construction right now, this will remain as planned/financed.

The sectors that will not be reconstructed were not the worst (like the final descent into Villa San Giovanni before the reconstruction, or the cramped and outright dangerous design around Salerno, but the one south of Cosenza is substandard in that the road has too many soft curves and tight tunnels. It was like the section west of Battipaglia before they fixed it in almost a decade ago.

There is a PDF with some slides on the new situation/project and/or a 6MB picture with a map for download

Government is giving Calabria the short hand; first they cancelled the Messina strait bridge, then they severely reduced the scope of SS-106 and now they cancel part of A3 reconstruction altogether, going for half-baked measures. I won't start a political rant on how this government is thinking low on infrastructure, coming up with big plans and then severely paring them down. There needs to be higher transportation infrastructure spending in Italy, with a "go for the best" approach. When they did that, Italy got brand new high-speed train lines, new full-standard _autostrade_ and world-class port facilities, now it is all about half-measures and cheap projects (rail, road, maritime).


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> According to Autostrade del Lazio SpA, a company created to build and manage the future motorway Rome-Latina, the construction tender was awarded to the italo-spanish company SIS, winning over Salini-Impregilo.


If the construction tender was awarded, I guess that construction works should begin "soon", shouldn't they? Maybe 2016?

I've never heard (or can't remember) about this motorway. Is it an upgrade of the existing SS148 or will the future _"A37"_ have a different alignment?

I found a call for tenders from 2014(?) which also mentions a Cisterna – Valmontone connection. I guess it's one contract for construction of both new roads?

http://www.autostradedellazio.it/on-line/Home/Attivita/CorridoioIntermodaleRoma-Latina.html

It's reported that the total length is 53.5km (OSM). There seems to be 4 lots or sections:


 Tratta 1: Tor de’ Cenci - Castel Romano
 Tratta 2: Castel Romano - Aprilia Nord
 Tratta 3: Aprilia Nord - Bivio di Cisterna
 Tratta 4: Bivio di Cisterna - Latina Nord

Tor de’ Cenci is close to A90. I guess the new road will begin at A90 exit 26? The future motorway will feature 2x3 lanes (width of 33.3m) up to Aprila North. The remaing sections will feature 2x2 lanes.

http://www.autostradedellazio.it/on-line/Home/Attivita/CollegamentoCisterna-Valmontone.html

The 2x2 motorway has a length of 34km (OSM). Where will it be connected to _"A37"_, at Aprilia North interchange? Where will it be connected to A1, near an exisiting interchange or a new interchange?

Is there a map showing the entire future motorway network of the region?


----------



## MichiH

*SS199:* west of Olbia-South (SS131DCN) – Olbia-Airport 2.5km (June 2012 to Early 2016) – project – map
*SS597:* Codrongianos (SS131) – Ploaghe 2.4km (September 2013 to Early 2016) – project – map

It's reported that a "limitation" because of the SS199 construction works (lot 9) will be extended till 30th May, source. I guess SS199 section will be opened in Mid 2016 (at the earliest).

If I'm right, the project page link has been changed and the new project page contains less information - no details at all .


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> If the construction tender was awarded, I guess that construction works should begin "soon", shouldn't they? Maybe 2016?


I don't think so, I guess 2017 is a more probable date.



> I've never heard (or can't remember) about this motorway. Is it an upgrade of the existing SS148 or will the future _"A37"_ have a different alignment?


It will largely follow SS148 except for bypassing Pomezia and Aprilia.



> I found a call for tenders from 2014(?) which also mentions a Cisterna – Valmontone connection. I guess it's one contract for construction of both new roads?


Yes, the project contains both roads, the latter being a motorway connection to the A1.



> http://www.autostradedellazio.it/on-line/Home/Attivita/CorridoioIntermodaleRoma-Latina.html
> 
> It's reported that the total length is 53.5km (OSM). There seems to be 4 lots or sections:
> 
> 
> Tratta 1: Tor de’ Cenci - Castel Romano
> Tratta 2: Castel Romano - Aprilia Nord
> Tratta 3: Aprilia Nord - Bivio di Cisterna
> Tratta 4: Bivio di Cisterna - Latina Nord
> 
> Tor de’ Cenci is close to A90. I guess the new road will begin at A90 exit 26? The future motorway will feature 2x3 lanes (width of 33.3m) up to Aprila North. The remaing sections will feature 2x2 lanes.


Possibly, I'm not sure. The old project was connecting it directly to A12 at Ponte Galeria, but there were a lot of environmental oppositions about that, the area being a natural park of some sort.




> http://www.autostradedellazio.it/on-line/Home/Attivita/CollegamentoCisterna-Valmontone.html
> 
> The 2x2 motorway has a length of 34km (OSM). Where will it be connected to _"A37"_, at Aprilia North interchange? Where will it be connected to A1, near an exisiting interchange or a new interchange?
> 
> Is there a map showing the entire future motorway network of the region?












It's small but - kind of - readable.


----------



## g.spinoza

According to a local newspaper works for the direct connection of A35 to A4 near Brescia are going to start in two months, with completion date set to January 2017. It will be a semi-junction, only from A35 to Venice and vice-versa.

http://www.bresciaoggi.it/territori...ll-a4cantieri-aperti-entro-due-mesi-1.4713015

In the meantime, BreBeMi and TEEM (A35 and A58) are launching a 15% discount promotion for all Telepass users

http://www.giornaledibrescia.it/bre...-sui-pedaggi-per-chi-ha-il-telepass-1.3057633


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> We have very bad news for A3.
> 
> ANAS has downgraded its plans for the modernization works of the remaining 58km still not under construction. Instead of re-alignment and widening as seen elsewhere, they will spend € 1,1 billion to "rebuilt-in-place" the infrastructure, without widening of viaducts and/or new tunnels.
> 
> Only a short 5-km single-carriageway will be built (with existing lanes becoming 4 northbound lanes).
> 
> The government doesn't have the € 3,9 billion it would need to completely rebuild the remaining 58km in a new alignment. € 7,2 billion have already been spent on reconstruction/widening/realignment of A3.
> 
> This means these sectors will not have wide shoulders, and likely will be stuck with a 90 km/h speed limit, and some short-ish acceleration lanes on exits. :bash:
> 
> Since they will spend more than one billion Euro on it, it is unlikely they will spend almost another 4 billion to rebuild as originally planned these sectors anytime within next 20 years.
> 
> This is the sweetened pill corporate video of ANAS about the cheap works they'll do
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With this new solution, the final count of tunnels on A3 will be 194 (for 124,3km) and the count of bridges 479 (91,2km).
> 
> There are also 21km under construction right now, this will remain as planned/financed.
> 
> The sectors that will not be reconstructed were not the worst (like the final descent into Villa San Giovanni before the reconstruction, or the cramped and outright dangerous design around Salerno, but the one south of Cosenza is substandard in that the road has too many soft curves and tight tunnels. It was like the section west of Battipaglia before they fixed it in almost a decade ago.
> 
> *There is a PDF with some slides on the new situation/project and/or a 6MB picture with a map for download*
> 
> Government is giving Calabria the short hand; first they cancelled the Messina strait bridge, then they severely reduced the scope of SS-106 and now they cancel part of A3 reconstruction altogether, going for half-baked measures. I won't start a political rant on how this government is thinking low on infrastructure, coming up with big plans and then severely paring them down. There needs to be higher transportation infrastructure spending in Italy, with a "go for the best" approach. When they did that, Italy got brand new high-speed train lines, new full-standard _autostrade_ and world-class port facilities, now it is all about half-measures and cheap projects (rail, road, maritime).


Colours on the map means:
green: complete
red: U/C
blue: maintenance of old motorway without new alingment

ANAS webpage about A3 now shows a countdown to the full completition of ongoing works, but it only refers to the U/C red section, as the upgrade of the remaining 3 sections (58km in total) showed in blue, has been cancelled (for the last 10km before Reggio Calabria, it says it will be 'upgraded safety').

But Matteo Renzi will finally be able to say that A3 will be completed during its office, that's the most important thing.  :bash:


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> According to a local newspaper works for the direct connection of A35 to A4 near Brescia are going to start in two months, with completion date set to January 2017. It will be a semi-junction, only from A35 to Venice and vice-versa.
> 
> http://www.bresciaoggi.it/territori...ll-a4cantieri-aperti-entro-due-mesi-1.4713015
> 
> In the meantime, BreBeMi and TEEM (A35 and A58) are launching a 15% discount promotion for all Telepass users
> 
> http://www.giornaledibrescia.it/bre...-sui-pedaggi-per-chi-ha-il-telepass-1.3057633


*A35*: Brescia-West (A4) - Travagliato-West 5.6km (May 2016 to 31th January 2017) [2nd c/w] - project - map


----------



## MichiH

^^ Has the 1st carriageway been opened together with the whole A35 up to Milano or is it an old stretch?

Where is the exact end of the section opened in July 2014? I think it's less than 62km...

*A35:* Melzo (A58) – Brescia 62km (Summer 2009 to 23rd July 2014) – project – map


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> ^^ Has the 1st carriageway been opened together with the whole A35 up to Milano or is it an old stretch?
> 
> Where is the exact end of the section opened in July 2014? I think it's less than 62km...
> 
> *A35:* Melzo (A58) – Brescia 62km (Summer 2009 to 23rd July 2014) – project – map


The 1st c/w has been opened together with the whole A35, already with the space reserved and overpasses wide enough for a future 2nd c/w (for this reason upgrade of this section will be very fast).
The 3x2 section opened in 2014 is actually 49.8km long, from junction with SP19 west of Brescia to junction with A58 east of Milan.
The 62.1km figure reported in most media is probably comprehensive of the 1+1 section between SP19 and Brescia and the lenght of all ramps of local junctions.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Thanks. I'll modify my overview to:

*A35:* Melzo (A58) – Travagliato-West (SP19) 49.8km (Summer 2009 to 23rd July 2014) – project – map
*A35:* Travagliato-West (SP19) – east of Brescia-West (A4) 6km (Summer 2009 to 23rd July 2014) [1st c/w; w/o A4 i/c] – project – map
*A35:* Travagliato-West (SP19) – east of Brescia-West (A4) 5.6km (May 2016 to January 2017) [2nd c/w] – project – map

There seems to be another "Travagliato-West" interchange east of SP19 though :?.

I'll ignore that there's a short section with 2 c/w at the eastern end opened in 2014 because it's really very short.


----------



## mistikos

italystf said:


> Colours on the map means:
> green: complete
> red: U/C
> blue: maintenance of old motorway without new alingment
> 
> ANAS webpage about A3 now shows a countdown to the full completition of ongoing works, but it only refers to the U/C red section, as the upgrade of the remaining 3 sections (58km in total) showed in blue, has been cancelled (for the last 10km before Reggio Calabria, it says it will be 'upgraded safety').
> 
> But Matteo Renzi will finally be able to say that A3 will be completed during its office, that's the most important thing.  :bash:


I'm shocked... icard:

Matteo Renzi doesn't know that at the moment A3 is the most important road on the southern Italy! :bash:

During the stretch Rogliano-Altilia there's the Stupino viaduct, that in the north carriageway was subject of the structural failure of a joint... :bash:


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> ^^ Thanks. I'll modify my overview to:
> 
> *A35:* Melzo (A58) – Travagliato-West (SP19) 49.8km (Summer 2009 to 23rd July 2014) – project – map
> *A35:* Travagliato-West (SP19) – east of Brescia-West (A4) 6km (Summer 2009 to 23rd July 2014) [1st c/w; w/o A4 i/c] – project – map
> *A35:* Travagliato-West (SP19) – east of Brescia-West (A4) 5.6km (May 2016 to January 2017) [2nd c/w] – project – map
> 
> There seems to be another "Travagliato-West" interchange east of SP19 though :?.


The only "Travagliato West junction is east of SP19. The first interchange west of SP19 is called "Rovato".



> I'll ignore that there's a short section with 2 c/w at the eastern end opened in 2014 because it's really very short.


Is there? I don't remember it.


----------



## MichiH

^^ https://www.google.com/maps/place/R...2!3m1!1s0x47816eec3597589b:0x3c37e70bc0a3abd5

Two carriageways but 1 lane per c/w only .


----------



## g.spinoza

According to this article, the first 6 km of Pedemontana Veneta (Montecchio - Breganze) should open at the end of 2016, not in mid 2016 as previously stated:

http://mattinopadova.gelocal.it/reg...-pedemontana-e-pronta-per-un-terzo-1.13126935

Other 40 km (Breganze - Montebelluna) should open at the end of 2017.


----------



## Insulateshipper

g.spinoza said:


> According to this article, the first 6 km of Pedemontana Veneta (Montecchio - Breganze) should open at the end of 2016, not in mid 2016 as previously stated:
> 
> http://mattinopadova.gelocal.it/reg...-pedemontana-e-pronta-per-un-terzo-1.13126935
> 
> Other 40 km (Breganze - Montebelluna) should open at the end of 2017.


You mean first 60 km of Pedemontana Veneta (Montecchio - Breganze) not 6km, right? it's what I calculate with a navigator...


----------



## g.spinoza

Insulateshipper said:


> You mean first 60 km of Pedemontana Veneta (Montecchio - Breganze) not 6km, right? it's what I calculate with a navigator...


Apologies, I misquoted.
Still first 6 km, but from junction with A31 (not A4) to Breganze...


----------



## Autobahn-mann

Insulateshipper said:


> You mean first 60 km of Pedemontana Veneta (Montecchio - Breganze) not 6km, right? it's what I calculate with a navigator...


It's from A31 (Thiene) to Breganze, 6 km;
The stretches between A4 and A31 will be the last to be connected in Vicenza province (2 stretches in 2018, 1 in 2020 because of long tunnels: one of 6 km long)


----------



## italystf

Insulateshipper said:


> You mean first 60 km of Pedemontana Veneta (Montecchio - Breganze) not 6km, right? it's what I calculate with a navigator...


Montecchio is Montecchio Maggiore, on A4 west of Vicenza. Not to be confused with Montecchio Precalcino, that is near Thiene (future A31-SPV junction).


----------



## sponge_bob

Suburbanist said:


> We have very bad news for A3.
> 
> ANAS has downgraded its plans for the modernization works of the remaining 58km still not under construction. Instead of re-alignment and widening as seen elsewhere, they will spend € 1,1 billion to "rebuilt-in-place" the infrastructure, without widening of viaducts and/or new tunnels.
> .


They were to build some new/proper junctions along the A3 too. Has that plan been abandoned as well?

The old A3 was a not super strada. 90kph limits are about right given how crap the roads is.


----------



## mistikos

^^A3 wasn't a real motorway, because it didn't have got the hard shoulder... :bash:

Thanks to our government!


----------



## Autobahn-mann

italystf said:


> Montecchio is Montecchio Maggiore, on A4 west of Vicenza. Not to be confused with Montecchio Precalcino, that is near Thiene (future A31-SPV junction).


Esactly!
Montecchio Precalcino, until first decade of 20th Century aka Montecchio Minore


----------



## sponge_bob

mistikos said:


> ^^A3 wasn't a real motorway, because it didn't have got the hard shoulder... :bash:
> 
> Thanks to our government!


Well from what I can see 40km of it will never have a hard shoulder because Renzi has abandoned the A3 upgrade now.

Less than a year ago. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-years-after-construction-began-10261986.html



> This week, however, the Prime Minister, Matteo Renzi, who’s on something of a roll in his mission to modernise Italy, after pushing electoral reform through parliament, struck an upbeat note. *“We will finish the Salerno-Reggio Calabria,” he told Rai 1 television. “By the end of 2015 all the sites will begin a final speeding up of work and next year at the latest, it will be finished.”* Around 3,000 workers are said to be grafting night and day, seven days a week to speed its completion.
> 
> But some felt that Mr Renzi had struck an inappropriately triumphal tone, given that 50 years after construction began, the completion day was still uncertain.
> 
> *And even if it’s “finished” next year or the year after, it is likely that 43km of the autostrada will lack the emergency lane it is supposed to have.
> *


Only in Italy can this steaming turd be called a 'motorway' .


----------



## italystf

sponge_bob said:


> Well from what I can see 40km of it will never have a hard shoulder because Renzi has abandoned the A3 upgrade now.
> 
> Less than a year ago.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-years-after-construction-began-10261986.html
> 
> 
> 
> Only in Italy can this steaming turd be called a 'motorway' .


Actually 68 km in 4 different stretches.

BTW, the article is wrong. A3 construction didn't lasted 50 years. It was built in 1964-72 and upgraded in 2003-present.

In the 1960s-70s any 2x2 grade-separated road was a motorway. Now standards are more strict, although old substandard motorways have never been downgraded to expressway status.


----------



## italystf

mistikos said:


> ^^A3 wasn't a real motorway, because it didn't have got the hard shoulder... :bash:
> 
> Thanks to our government!


Apart the lack of hard shoulders, also steep gradients and small curvature radii were a problem.


----------



## sotonsi

italystf said:


> BTW, the article is wrong.


Of course it is - it's _The Independent_.

_The Independent_ lost its way as a newspaper about 15 years ago, with actual journalism abandoned in favour of opinion pieces and sensationalist tabloid-esque material for people who hate tabloids and sensationalist stories (so over-embellished stories with little fact checking, told in bland ways on niche topics so it looks like serious and important stuff despite being much-ado-about-nothing, like the article on the A3).

Quality has declined lots in recent years and readership has fallen massively. They will cease to be a printed newspaper within the next two weeks, but quite when hasn't been announced. Their front page (well, first ever advertising wrap-around) yesterday was telling people where you can continue reading, but I still don't think that they have announced the date. I'd imagine, like it's pared down daughter paper (that's really thin), that the website content will only be a view major stories, some views, and the sports section rather than continue to be bloated with the waffle that the Indy has had for years in order to be as thick as serious newspapers.


----------



## stabia




----------



## ChrisZwolle

italystf said:


> BTW, the article is wrong. A3 construction didn't lasted 50 years. It was built in 1964-72 and upgraded in 2003-present.


Stories about A3 also persistently circulate in the German media. Every once in a while there is an article about the 'scandalous' condition of A3, often based on outdated information that may have been true 15 years ago. 

It's like that photo of the 'steep' Japanese bridge that circulates the internet media every few months. In reality it's not really steep at all, but the zoom makes it appear as if traffic is driving on a 45 degree incline.


----------



## mistikos

*A3, from Altomonte to Sibari:*


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> In the 1960s-70s any 2x2 grade-separated road was a motorway. Now standards are more strict, although old substandard motorways have never been downgraded to expressway status.


SS 202 in Trieste was downgraded to expressway. I can't believe it used to be a motorway. :lol:


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## italystf

Verso said:


> SS 202 in Trieste was downgraded to expressway. I can't believe it used to be a motorway. :lol:


That one was opened in 1988, not in the 1960s! It never had an A-number, though, only the GVT designation (Grande Viabilità Triestina).
However the expressway category wasn't introduced in Italy until 1993.


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## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> In the 1960s-70s any 2x2 grade-separated road was a motorway. Now standards are more strict, although old substandard motorways have never been downgraded to expressway status.


Mmm not really. FiPiLi was opened in 1970 but nobody ever dreamed of calling it motorway, and so many others...


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## mistikos

*A3, from Campotenese to Laino Borgo:*


----------



## Verso

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_Sistiana-Rabuiese

How many new motorway designations will appear around Trieste? It starts confusing me. :nuts:


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## mistikos

*A3, from Tarsia to Spezzano Albanese:*


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## mistikos

*A3 SA-RC, from Montalto Uffugo to Tarsia:*


----------



## mistikos

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria, from Morano to Campotenese in the north carriageway:*


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## italystf

Verso said:


> https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_Sistiana-Rabuiese
> 
> How many new motorway designations will appear around Trieste? It starts confusing me. :nuts:


A4: up to Sistiana exit
RA13: Sistiana (end of A4) - Padriciano
RA14: Opicina (RA13) - Fernetti (SLO border)
Autostrada Sistiana-Rabuiese: two separate sections Padriciano - Cattinara (SS202) and Lacotisce (SS202) - Rabuiese (SLO border)

The section Lacotisce - Rabuiese was classificated as motorway in 2015 and it still has blue expressway signs.

SS202 Trieste port - Cattinara is now an expressway.


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## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Mmm not really. FiPiLi was opened in 1970 but nobody ever dreamed of calling it motorway, and so many others...


But many old motorways hadn't standards much higher than FiPiLi. Probably it was quite discretional whether a road was classificated as motorway or not.
FiPiLi now it's not even an expressway, just a dual-carriaggeway with speed limit between 70 and 90.


----------



## mistikos

*A3, from Sibari to Morano:*


----------



## italystf

A landslide occurred today on SS1 in Arenzano, near Genoa.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Autostrada Sistiana-Rabuiese: two separate sections Padriciano - Cattinara (SS202) and Lacotisce (SS202) - Rabuiese (SLO border)


So why isn't it called "Autostrada Padriciano-Rabuiese"? (I'm not even gonna comment the fact that it's broken between Cattinara and Lacotisce by SS 202, and that Padriciano-Cattinara could just be RA 13)



> The section Lacotisce - Rabuiese was classificated as motorway in 2015 and it still has blue expressway signs.


Would be better if it stayed an expressway since SS 202 and the Slovenian H5 are both expressways.


----------



## mistikos

*A90, from Cassia road to Trionfale road and from Trionfale road to km 22:*


----------



## Luki_SL

italystf said:


> A landslide occurred today on SS1 in Arenzano, near Genoa.


There is no injuries in this accident?


----------



## g.spinoza

A truck caught fire yesterday on A1 between Capua and Caianello, in Southern Italy. The motorway has been closed for nearly the whole day, because the fire happened below an overpass that was deformed by the intense heat and risked a collapse. Experts say the overpass cannot be repaired and must be demolished.


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## Lion007

*Autostrada Pedemontana Veneta - Superstrada 19.3.2016 (10/11)*


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## Lion007

*Autostrada Pedemontana Veneta - Superstrada 19.3.2016 (11/11)*


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## mistikos

Good job!


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## italystf

Great pics of the Pedemontana Veneta, there aren't many on the net.
However you may have posted them all in a single post.
I think those pics are from the Thiene - Bassano section, that runs parallel to SP111 "Nuova Gasparona".


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## italystf

Last lot of SS723 Ferrara bypass (4.1 km) opened to traffic on 21th March. It completes the 8 km beltway west of the city.



INTER88 said:


> Un po' di foto della nuova Tangenziale di Ferrara tratte dal sito dell'Anas:


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## italystf

A circa 5 km section of SS172 between Martina Franca and Locorotondo, near Taranto, in Apulia, has been closed because water infiltrations from a nearby sewage treatment plant have undermined the stability of the road foundations.
http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/impr...CFYqnvC&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

It's one of the main roads between the Jonian and the Adriatic coasts, with a lot of touristic traffic in summer. Traffic now has to take either a long detour via other main roads, or a short detour via narrow and poorly-maintained country roads.


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## Suburbanist

*A3 works*

ANAS is now providing weekly pics of A3 works. These were taken Wednesday









v. Italia
.









v. Filomato, looking north

.








brand new pavement - near Castagne Nord









v. Italia - looking north


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## Suburbanist

There are also an interesting video of work lot 3.2. Construction (re)started in 2014.






It shows current situation, future situation and some snaps of actual construction.


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## mistikos

Excuse me, but the third photo is about the Mancuso viaduct, not about the Castagne viaduct...


----------



## mistikos

*New photos from the ANAS website made today:*

Jannello viaduct

















New Jannello tunnel









New Jannello tunnel and new Italia viaduct

















New and old Italia viaduct









New and old Italia and Filomato viaducts

















New Laria tunnel

















Construction of the new carriageway north between Laria tunnel and Gallarizzo viaduct

















Gallarizzo viaduct on the carriageway south

















Construction of the new Colle Trodo tunnel on the carriageway south

















Construction of the new junction of Mormanno









New Mormanno tunnel









New Mormanno tunnel and new and old La Pineta viaduct









New Battendiero II viaduct









Construction of the new carriageway north between Battendiero II and Piano dell'Avena viaducts









New Mancuso viaduct on the carriageway north

































New carriageway north after Castagne viaduct









New Donna di Marco tunnel on the carriageway south

















New Campotenese tunnel

















Construction of the new carriageway north before Campotenese tunnel









New carriageway north opened


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## italystf

Motorways signed in blue, light blue and pink are equipped with TUTOR (long-distance speed control system)


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## MichiH

^^ Are there temporary or permanent speed checks? Are the sections signed?

I'll drive on some sections soon............


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## x-type

MichiH said:


> ^^ Are there temporary or permanent speed checks? Are the sections signed?
> 
> I'll drive on some sections soon............


you have on almost each portal sign for "controllo elettronico della velocita' con sistema tutor", so it doesn't mean too much. however, they say that not each section is covered each time (it is lottery, you cannot know when they system is active, and when is not)


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## intersezioni

MichiH said:


> ^^ Are there temporary or permanent speed checks? Are the sections signed?
> 
> I'll drive on some sections soon............


The TUTOR system is permanent, always-on


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## narkelion

I always knew that Tutor could be active only for 6h/day.

Virgilius instead works 24/7.

But the source is not that reliable, so maybe it's wrong.


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## g.spinoza

I read somewhere that Tutor couldn't manage the huge amount of data coming from its sensors, so that's why it's not always turned on


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## brick84

*Highway A18 Siracusa-Gela*

_works for new lots from Rosolini to Modica_


Update e tecnical description by Roberto.palermo (in italian)





Roberto.palermo said:


> ^^Ma non è finita qui: Naturalmente, non poteva mancare lo Scardina...
> 
> Siamo ormai arrivati alla realizzazione della quinta campata, su dodici, della carreggiata in direzione SR. La travata in direzione sud è invece stata completata, come testimoniato dalle foto postate qualche settimana fa da Brick:
> 
> 
> La campata in fase di esecuzione è la quinta, con il concio di "stampella" già posizionato nella sua estremità lato nord. I lavori della quarta campata, però, non sono ancora conclusi; infatti le funi di sospensione dei conci testimoniano che ancora non è stata completata la fase di incollaggio e di tesatura dei cavi di post-compressione, che passano tra un concio e l'altro:
> 
> 
> Più da vicino, si vede come i conci siano stati posizionati "a più d'opera" e che, quindi, il carro-ponte li solleva ad uno ad uno e li posizione al punto giusto. A tal proposito, si distinguono le funi di sospensione.
> 
> Questa metodologia sembra abbia accelerato le lavorazioni, e si vede:
> 
> 
> 
> Parecchi conci giacciono a piè d'opera, come detto: da vicino, si nota come ci sia differenza tra un concio e l'altro, non per la forma esterna, ma per il posizionamento delle guaine per le armature di post-compressione:
> 
> 
> Qui si vede il giunto più corto, che va posizionato tra una campata e l'altra, in corrispondenza della pila:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> image hosting





Roberto.palermo said:


> Uno schema aggiornato per far comprendere lo stato d'avanzamento del viadotto Scardina, confrontando la situazione attuale con quella degli ultimi sopralluoghi. Negli ultimi tre mesi, a cantiere pienamente a regime, sono state completate ben 8 campate (colore verde). In questo tempo va anche considerato lo spostamento del carro-ponte, che giunto all'estremità lato SR della carreggiata di monte, è stato riportato sull'estremità lato Gela di quella di valle, da dove ha ricominciato la posa dei conci.
> Di questo passo, dal momento che mancano 6 campate, è prevedibile il completamento del viadotto entro giugno:
> invia immagini
> 
> Ed ora, alcune opere d'arte "minori" che ho visto in zona. Questo è il sottopasso sulla SR 49 per S. Maria del Focallo:
> 
> 
> Qui invece osserviamo il sottopasso sulla SP50 Ispica-Granelli:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vista verso Gela da questo punto. Sulle scarpate del rilevato, in stato avanzato di esecuzione, si nota anche la posa del terreno vegetale:
> 
> 
> Opera d'arte sulla strada comunale che si dirama dalla SP49:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vista da questo punto verso SR:
> 
> 
> Sovrapasso sulla SR 37:
> 
> 
> E vista lato Gela da questo punto:
> 
> 
> Strada interpoderale tra Rosolini e Ispica. Qui siamo ormai quasi all'apertura del sottopasso, con la variante ormai pronta. La strada è attualmente chiusa al traffico:
> 
> 
> 
> hosting immagini


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## mistikos

*New fotos about A3 from the ANAS website:*



mistikos said:


> *Riporto le foto dal sito dell'ANAS:*
> 
> Viadotto Jannello in completamento, demolite la terzultima e la penultima campata della vecchia carreggiata nord
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Nuova galleria Jannello in costruzione quasi finita più viadotto Italia lato nord
> 
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> 
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> 
> Viadotto Italia lato nord, la nuova carreggiata sud è quasi arrivata alla travata centrale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viadotto Italia lato sud e viadotto Filomato, ci siamo quasi
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Galleria Laria, sono indietro specie all'imbocco nord dove manca ancora il rivestimento degli imbocchi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Nuova carreggiata nord in costruzione vista dal cavalcavia al km 160,9 sia verso sud che verso nord
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> Riqualificazione del viadotto Gallarizzo in carreggiata sud ormai finita
> 
> 
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> 
> Imbocco sud della galleria Colle Trodo canna sud ormai quasi finito
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> Lavori allo svincolo di Mormanno
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Imbocco nord della nuova galleria Mormanno, ci siamo quasi per la canna sud
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> Imbocco sud della galleria Mormanno e nuovo viadotto La Pineta e vecchio viadotto omonimo nord in demolizione
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viadotto Battendiero II
> 
> 
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> 
> Proseguono i lavori della carreggiata nord tra il km 167 e il 169, cominciata la prima posa della segnaletica
> 
> 
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> 
> Viadotto Mancuso nord
> 
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> Nuovo viadotto Castagne nord, cominciata la stesura della segnaletica
> 
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> 
> Canna sud della galleria Donna di Marco, sono piuttosto indietro all'imbocco nord
> 
> 
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> 
> Tramite due scambi di carreggiata, aperta al traffico la canna sud della galleria Campotenese a doppio senso di marcia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Nuova carreggiata nord a doppio senso tra il km 173 e il km 171
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> :cheers::cheers:


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## italystf

^^ End 2016? It doesn't look believable.
Photos, unlike politicians, don't lie. :nuts:


----------



## IThomas

*Possible marriage between ANAS and FS could reshape Italy's transport sector*
*Il Sole 24 Ore*

The plan of a “marriage” between Italy's state railways company Ferrovie dello Stato (FS) and ANAS  is on the table of their relative ministries (Economy and Transport), but the road to take has not yet been decided.

Unsurprisingly, Renato Mazzoncini, the head of FS, has only gone as far as saying “this is a suggestive and interesting idea,” and “talks are ongoing, synergies are particularly high.” Gianni Armani, president of ANAS, said “there are many analogies in the operating model of Ferrovie and ANAS. By working together we can do better.”

So it looks like the two state controlled companies may be on the way to a merger. If it leads to the creation of “a network company,” the FS CEO would not say no to the idea, provided that everything remains “within the FS holding.” He added that any option “would be neutral to the (planned stock market) listing of the company: any transaction can be done if it allows the group to keep adequate levels of profitability.”

There is a variety of possibilities, but there are only few clear parameters for now. What is certain, however, is that FS aims to make the company an integrated business, dealing with “everything that moves,” to quote Mazzoncini. “What I'm interested in is the public transportation service in Rome, ATAC, the largest Italian market, and it would be absurd that a group like FS was not interested in it,” the CEO said.


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## g.spinoza

Des said:


> Very interesting concept to just have two paralel toll roads instead of widening the existing one.


Given the orography, widening existing motorway would have been extremely expensive. 

I think they should have built the variante with 3 or 4 lanes per direction and decommission the old one.


----------



## Insulateshipper

g.spinoza said:


> No. S*it happens all over Italy, not only in the South...


No no no... only in south Italy I'm sorry.


----------



## g.spinoza

Insulateshipper said:


> No no no... only in south Italy I'm sorry.


A31 is built over toxic chemical waste. 
SS77 is being built with less concrete in tunnel walls than the law requires. 
SS3 bis is built and rebuilt constantly substandard in order to push for its conversion to motorway (which is more profitable). 

Last time I checked these are not in southern Italy.


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## Insulateshipper

italystf said:


> Of couse s*it happens all over Italy, but in some areas it happens more often than in others.


Of corse no. :bash: if you compare the infrastructure's of north and south , the evidence is striking. North is organized and serious , the south is a mess and pathetic...


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## g.spinoza

Insulateshipper said:


> Of corse no. :bash: if you compare the infrastructure's of north and south , the evidence is striking. North is organized and serious , the south is a mess and pathetic...


If we are talking about motorways, of course there are more km of them in the North than in the South, but that's because of the orography and population density.

Italian Automobile Club wrote a report where some indexes were analyzed. For instance, the km of roads/100 vehicles ratio shows that the value for Northern Italy is half that of Southern Italy.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

Wow! The rivalry between Northern and Southern Italy come also here!


----------



## Suburbanist

Insulateshipper said:


> Of corse no. :bash: if you compare the infrastructure's of north and south , the evidence is striking. North is organized and serious , the south is a mess and pathetic...


The major difference is between fully concession-roads and regular ANAS-roads.

SS3bis is quite an adventure, to speak so. The only reason the highways are in better shape is that they are mostly under private administration. Put A3, A18, A19 under private management and they will improve vastly (I'm talking full concessions here, not the joke of CAS). 

A14 and A15 are quite good highways... 

What Basilicata and Calabria lack is high speed rail. And of course there is the lack of a Messina Strait bridge...


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> The major difference is between fully concession-roads and regular ANAS-roads.
> 
> SS3bis is quite an adventure, to speak so. The only reason the highways are in better shape is that they are mostly under private administration. Put A3, A18, *A19* under private management and they will improve vastly (I'm talking full concessions here, not the joke of CAS).
> 
> A14 and A15 are quite good highways...
> 
> What Basilicata and Calabria lack is high speed rail. And of course there is the lack of a Messina Strait bridge...


ANAS has an 872-million-plan to upgrade A19 to modern standards. We'll wait and see...
Too bad that the current government cancelled the plan to upgrade the remaining substandard stretches of A3!


----------



## Insulateshipper

g.spinoza said:


> A31 is built over toxic chemical waste.
> SS77 is being built with less concrete in tunnel walls than the law requires.
> SS3 bis is built and rebuilt constantly substandard in order to push for its conversion to motorway (which is more profitable).
> 
> Last time I checked these are not in southern Italy.


You mean all the A31? Come on... please. And its not append only there but in other country to. For the ss77 what is the consequences? They just see that in some part of the tunnel, the law wasn't strictly respected. But the road is open and secure.
And if they want to convert the ss3 bis in a real motorway with modern standard why not? 
No I'm sure that only in south you can have that kind of "comic" situation with bridge falling down, grass on the motorway,landslide and discharge on the road etc etc... Look this is a mentality, they don't want to do something properly, it's crazy. Except for the A14 and A15 and big part of the A3 how are now real motorway with high standard.


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## Insulateshipper

Autobahn-mann said:


> Wow! The rivalry between Northern and Southern Italy come also here!


 South it's five critical region: Campania is a big mess, it's just catastrophic. Calabria, Basilicata, Sicily have problem Puglia infrastructures are in some part good and some part it's critical but not as in the other 4 regions.... The other 15 regions of the country is good and well maintained.


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## stabia

Insulateshipper said:


> South it's five critical region: Campania is a big mess, it's just catastrophic. Calabria, Basilicata, Sicily have problem Puglia infrastructures are in some part good and some part it's critical but not as in the other 4 regions.... The other 15 regions of the country is good and well maintained.


You don't know what you're talking about in the least, why Campania region would be a disaster in infrastructure? It seems to me that Campania has more highways and expressways than other regions, what would be catastrophic?

And then, do you really think that the rest of the regions is everything perfect? :rofl:


----------



## mistikos

Insulateshipper said:


> South it's five critical region: Campania is a big mess, it's just catastrophic. Calabria, Basilicata, Sicily have problem Puglia infrastructures are in some part good and some part it's critical but not as in the other 4 regions.... The other 15 regions of the country is good and well maintained.


I went in Puglia last weekend. Puglia infrastructures are very worse maintained: SS7 from Taranto ro Grottaglie is an example, like SS106.


----------



## g.spinoza

Insulateshipper said:


> You mean all the A31? Come on... please.


http://www.veronasera.it/cronaca/le...sud-dirigenti-processati-14-ottobre-2015.html



> And its not append only there but in other country to. For the ss77 what is the consequences? They just see that in some part of the tunnel, the law wasn't strictly respected. But the road is open and secure.


?? The road is not open yet.



> And if they want to convert the ss3 bis in a real motorway with modern standard why not?


Why pay for a road which was meant to be free?


----------



## italystf

Insulateshipper said:


> You mean all the *A31*? Come on... please. And its not append only there but in other country to. For the ss77 what is the consequences? They just see that in some part of the tunnel, the law wasn't strictly respected. But the road is open and secure.
> And if they want to convert the ss3 bis in a real motorway with modern standard why not?
> No I'm sure that only in south you can have that kind of "comic" situation with bridge falling down, grass on the motorway,landslide and discharge on the road etc etc... Look this is a mentality, they don't want to do something properly, it's crazy. Except for the A14 and *A15* and big part of the A3 how are now real motorway with high standard.


A15 is between Parma and La Spezia, in northern Italy. Do you mean A16 (Naples - Canosa)?
A31: the newest part (Vicenza - Badia Polesine, built in 2005-2015) was built over toxic waste, indeed. I'm not sure if the entire 50km lenght, but some parts certainly.


Insulateshipper said:


> South it's five critical region: Campania is a big mess, it's just catastrophic. Calabria, Basilicata, Sicily have problem Puglia infrastructures are in some part good and some part it's critical but not as in the other 4 regions.... The other 15 regions of the country is good and well maintained.


Campania has huge issues with organized crime (camorra) and with environmental pollution. Road infrastructure aren't the worse issue (at least in terms of network, I'm not sure about quality) and are certainly better than in Calabria or Sicily (but Campania is more dense, so more traffic).


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> Why pay for a road which was meant to be free?


What is the traffic on SS3? Because the only answer to Your question shall be: because the trafic requires a road with features of a motorway, and because there is no public money to build it "toll free".
For sure is not the lack of maintainance to justify such an investment, but of course the huge cost of maintainance of a road not fit for the trafic it carries, can explain a lack of it.


----------



## lucaf1

http://www.ansa.it/sito/notizie/cro...gna_fe353d02-f6dc-4950-858e-96a9e5de40a8.html

The last photo shows clearly the new signal for the A1 Var.


----------



## Suburbanist

lucaf1 said:


> http://www.ansa.it/sito/notizie/cro...gna_fe353d02-f6dc-4950-858e-96a9e5de40a8.html
> 
> The last photo shows clearly the new signal for the A1 Var.


Here it goes (from that link)


----------



## ILTarantino

Insulateshipper said:


> South it's five critical region: *Campania is a big mess, it's just catastrophic*. Calabria, Basilicata, Sicily have problem Puglia infrastructures are in some part good and some part it's critical but not as in the other 4 regions.... The other 15 regions of the country is good and well maintained.


Campania has one of the best motorway system south of Florence. What are you talking about? :lol:
A30 motorway; Caserta-Salerno (photos by mistikos)
















A3 motorway; Naples-Salerno near Torre Annunziata (photo by stabia)








A3 motorway near Salerno


----------



## ILTarantino

Autobahn-mann said:


> Wow! The rivalry between Northern and Southern Italy come also here!


He's an ignorant troll, but just ignore him.


----------



## mistikos

A3 motorway from Naples to Castellammare was completed on 16th March 2015, the foto isn't by stabia but by a website.

Puglia has a not bad motorway sistem: there are a lot of roads with two lane and the emergency lane, like SP367, SS7, SS101, SS613 and SS694. I travelled on them and they are bad maintained. With a very good maintaining, they should be very good. Unfortunately, expecially from Taranto to Grottaglie, there are a lot of holes.

Do you confirm, Il Tarantino?


----------



## ILTarantino

^^
Apulia has a good motorway/expressway system. Its territory is the least mountainous in Italy, but in some parts of the region there is simply no maintenance. You also have to consider that Apulia has a "continentalized" mediterranean climate (really hot summers and quite cold, snowy winters): that's the reason why the road surface tends to deteriorate quite quickly.


----------



## mistikos

Snowy winters without mountains? :lol:

Why there isn't maintenance in Salento? SS613 is deteriorate and SS101 is in worst conditions!


----------



## ILTarantino

mistikos said:


> Snowy winters without mountains? :lol:


Snow is very common in Apulia. Here you can see Alberobello last winter: 









Bari:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Apulia does seem to get a high share of severe weather, ranging from snow to severe hail to extreme heat. Just today I've read about a massive amount of hail in the Bari area.


----------



## brick84

Insulateshipper said:


> South it's five critical region: Campania is a big mess, it's just catastrophic. Calabria, Basilicata, Sicily have problem Puglia infrastructures are in some part good and some part it's critical but not as in the other 4 regions.... The other 15 regions of the country is good and well maintained.


The last highway opened in Sicily - toll-free and managed by Anas - highway Catania-Siracusa, is no so bad:


----------



## Suburbanist

Major problem with ANAS is not construction as much as it is maintenance.

Remember that same highway, a little further south, was partially closed few years after opening, south of Siracusa, because the pavement on northbound lands was subsiding fast, due to lax supervision of contracted works :bash:


----------



## ILTarantino

Unfortunately, you know: Sicily's problems are an extreme version of Italy's: corruption, organized crime, limited size of road maintenance...


----------



## Insulateshipper

ILTarantino said:


> Snow is very common in Apulia. Here you can see Alberobello last winter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bari:


very common ? well it's not like north of Europe. and not every winter. don't exaggerate.


----------



## ILTarantino

Insulateshipper said:


> very common ? well it's not like north of Europe. and not every winter. don't exaggerate.


I used to live in Apulia, I know what I'm saying. Apulia, facing the Balkans, is often exposed to cold air intrusions from eastern Europe. That's the same for Greece, former Yugoslavia and Turkey: have you ever heard of the Adriatic Sea/Black Sea-Effect Snow? Sorry, ignorance in spades here!
I know it's not like north of Europe, it would be the last straw!


----------



## Autobahn-mann

brick84 said:


> The last highway opened in Sicily - toll-free and managed by Anas - highway Catania-Siracusa, is no so bad


Easy to say with a just open expressway


----------



## g.spinoza

200 m of riverside street in Florence collapsed this morning at 6:30, very close to Ponte Vecchio. 20 parked cars are involved. The collapse was caused by a water pipe rupturing underneath the road:


----------



## Luki_SL

^^It was a very big pipe (...).


----------



## Verso

Ouch, I'll tell my mum, she was in Florence yesterday. Looks like she escaped in time.


----------



## Zagor666

A sign from Italia :cheers:
It would fit better in the Linguistic issues thread but some bunghole closed that one hno:
Its friulian and german


----------



## italystf

^^Sauris is a linguistic exclave where a sort of German (Bavarian) dialect is spoken. Other Germanic linguistic exclaves in the area are Sappada and Timau.


----------



## brick84

Autobahn-mann said:


> Easy to say with a just open expressway


'cause we were talking about new and old highways.


----------



## g.spinoza

Luki_SL said:


> ^^It was a very big pipe (...).


It was indeed. 70 cm in diameter, one of the main collectors of the city. It was put there in 1966,after the great flood, and never checked since then.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^50 years without any inspections ? I think after that water pipe rupturing there will be more underground inspections.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ yes, for a while. Then all will go back as usual.


----------



## g.spinoza

Superstrada SS 77, part of project Quadrilatero in central Italy, is going to open next summer. This is a video made by local newspaper Umbria24, driving from Colfiorito (current end of SS 77) towards Foligno:


----------



## g.spinoza

A14 has been closed yesterday due to a failed assault to an armored truck between Mosciano and Giulianova. The thieves disrupted traffic in both directions by laying spiked chains on the ground, forcing the truck to stop. Dozens of live ammo have been fired. The thieves fled the scene when their sawing machine broke down. 
http://m.ilmessaggero.it/abruzzo/articolo-1770269.html


----------



## Fab87

time for a nice picture...

A33 and the Monviso :cheers:

Travelling Light by Paolo Lombardi, su Flickr


----------



## mistikos

*A3 SA-RC, from Altilia to Cosenza:*


----------



## Suburbanist

What a shame that sector will not be reconstructed!


----------



## Insulateshipper

Fab87 said:


> time for a nice picture...
> 
> A33 and the Monviso :cheers:
> 
> Travelling Light by Paolo Lombardi, su Flickr


Finely a nice picture of an Italian road... this thread is to much focalized in polemic or news that we don't really care.


----------



## Insulateshipper

g.spinoza said:


> A14 has been closed yesterday due to a failed assault to an armored truck between Mosciano and Giulianova. The thieves disrupted traffic in both directions by laying spiked chains on the ground, forcing the truck to stop. Dozens of live ammo have been fired. The thieves fled the scene when their sawing machine broke down.
> http://m.ilmessaggero.it/abruzzo/articolo-1770269.html


Ancora un cronaca che noi all'estero non interessa proprio. incidenti acadono ovunque... sara tutto in ordine in un paio di giorni...


----------



## mistikos

Suburbanist said:


> What a shame that sector will not be reconstructed!


You're right, what a shame... :bash:

Damned Government, at the end of the video there are all informations about the stretch Cosenza-Altilia. I wrote in Italian, but you understand the same?


----------



## Fab87

Insulateshipper said:


> Finely a nice picture of an Italian road... this thread is to much focalized in polemic or news that we don't really care.


Well it's not a photo thread, so news are welcome here. But I agree there is sometimes too much negativity and defeatism, and many of the updates are of little importance (and show ugly roads)


----------



## g.spinoza

Insulateshipper said:


> Ancora un cronaca che noi all'estero non interessa proprio. incidenti acadono ovunque... sara tutto in ordine in un paio di giorni...


Maybe other people care. I don't remember you being nominated spokesperson of all foreign guys.


----------



## g.spinoza

Third lane on A14 between Ancona nord and Ancona sud is going to open next July. The whole enlargement project between Rimini and Porto Sant'Elpidio is finally coming to an end. 
Next enlargement works on A14 are going to be 4th lane between Bologna and the spur to Ravenna, and the whole lot of works around Bologna (tangenziale + autostrada enlargement) works should start in 2017 with a due date of 2021.


----------



## Suburbanist

They watered down the project around Bologna, from the more interesting full-fledged "northern bypass", leaving the existing highway for more local-ish traffic (same thing they did around Mestre).


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> They watered down the project around Bologna, from the more interesting full-fledged "northern bypass", leaving the existing highway for more local-ish traffic (same thing they did around Mestre).


That project was insane. More than 40 km of motorway instead of current 20 something. Nobody would have taken it.


----------



## Eddard Stark

How is the latest version?


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> Third lane on A14 between Ancona nord and Ancona sud is going to open next July. The whole enlargement project between Rimini and Porto Sant'Elpidio is finally coming to an end.
> Next enlargement works on A14 are going to be 4th lane between Bologna and the spur to Ravenna, and the whole lot of works around Bologna (tangenziale + autostrada enlargement) works should start in 2017 with a due date of 2021.


:banana:
i remember travelling there in 2010 (or was it 2011), the works were going on and finishing it seemed to be so far... and finally it is here now!

what is the situation at Bologna eastern bypass? is it bottleneck as Mestre bypass used to be, ot the traffic is fluent there? are there problems with SOS lane missing? i also remember some ancient times when the motorway was 2+2 with SOS lanes (+ parallel tangenziale, of course), when was it changed to 3+3 allingment?


----------



## g.spinoza

Eddard Stark said:


> How is the latest version?


In situ enlargement of motorway (3+3+emergency) and tangenziale (3+3 and a smaller stretch of 4+4)



x-type said:


> :banana:
> i remember travelling there in 2010 (or was it 2011), the works were going on and finishing it seemed to be so far... and finally it is here now!
> 
> what is the situation at Bologna eastern bypass? is it bottleneck as Mestre bypass used to be, ot the traffic is fluent there? are there problems with SOS lane missing? i also remember some ancient times when the motorway was 2+2 with SOS lanes (+ parallel tangenziale, of course), when was it changed to 3+3 allingment?



I think the tangenziale restyling with dynamic third lane was completed around 2007. All the times I passed there, though, even under heavy traffic, I found the third lane closed. Some speculate that Autostrade Per l'Italia wanted to prove the dynamic lane ineffective, so that its contract is renewed with the new proper enlargement works.


----------



## italystf

^^ Dynamic lane is also dangerous, because if an accident happens (that is more likely when traffic is high, thus the dynamic lane active), there is no room for emergency vehicles to run.


----------



## Verso

Does anyone know, if there are any plans (at least long-term) to better connect the RA14 motorway with the Slovenian A3? It's not a big deal, but it would be good to eliminate that 300° turn in direction SLO -> I. It's been the same since 1997.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Does anyone know, if there are any plans (at least long-term) to better connect the RA14 motorway with the Slovenian A3? It's not a big deal, but it would be good to eliminate that 300° turn in direction SLO -> I. It's been the same since 1997.


No, unfortunately.
It's complicated because there's also the access to the truck park.
I also feel that in many places in Europe they are reluctant to demolish completely former border control facilities, due to the uncertainty of the survival of Schengen, and the possibility of temporay suspensions of it.


----------



## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

update works for new lots Rosolini-Modica


Comparing photos from *April 2015* and 4th *June 2016*





*APRIL 2015*



brick84 said:


>




*4th JUNE 2016*









opposite direction









hostare immagini


----------



## g.spinoza

One of the most important urban road projects in Italy, the "Spina Centrale" project in Turin, reaches a milestone today.

The terminal stretch of Turin-Milan railway, which used to run at ground level, basically split in half the city, so between 1987 and 2009 it was put underground and now it is known as "Passante ferroviario", a system of 13 km of rail tunnels connecting the Turin-Milan, Turin-Susa-Frejus and Turin-Genoa railroads.

The ground formerly occupied by rails was left unused, so it was converted into roads. It was divided into 4 different stretches.

- Spina 1, between Largo Orbassano and Corso Vittorio Emanuele, was converted 10 years ago into an elegant boulevard with 3/2 lanes per direction and lots of statues and fountains:

















Spina 2 and Spina 3 are today opening for traffic: that includes a 2.6 km straight boulevard with the important 220 m underpass of Piazza Statuto, one of the most trafficked in the city:


uccio2 said:


> 2012
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2016


Spina 4 works still have to be started.


----------



## brick84

*SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta, Sicily*

_5 km of a next stretch from Caltanissetta to junction of highway A19 opened to traffic today_













www.stradeanas.it


----------



## Italbeton

Suburbanist said:


> I swear that is some forumer had come, couple years ago, with an idea like "hey, why doesn't ANAS start a new road category when a definitive number is not assigned, and then why doesn't it start creating road signs with those numbers?", most people would laugh at it.


Actually it make sense: when a national road is diverted from its old route, this one needs a new temporary classification, until it passes from ANAS to the province.


----------



## Coccodrillo

There are better solutions:

1) define the owner of the road before it opens

2) design a coherent numbering system not based on the owner, as drivers do not care who maintain the road, things like "SP ex SS 123", "SP BS 123", "NSA" should not exist. There should be A for motorways/autostrade, maybe B or S for superstrade, SS for main roads (also those owned by regions or provinces), and SR/SP/SC for minor ones - or something similar


----------



## ChrisZwolle

* Sacyr is awarded the construction and concession of the Rome – Latina freeway (Italy) with an income portfolio of 12,250 million euros *

Autostrade del Lazio has awarded the construction and concession of the Rome - Latina freeway in Italy, 186 kilometers long, to Sacyr's Italian subsidiary, SIS, with envisaged investment of 2,800 million euros and a concession period of 43 years.

The Rome-Latina freeway is the final part of Lazio Major Bypass, which comprises the Sole, Cisterna-Valmontone, Rome-Latina and Orte-Civitavecchia freeways, bringing its infrastructure in line with European standards.

The project requires the construction of 78 viaducts and overpasses with a total length of 23,700 meters, 2 tunnels with a total length of 2,350 meters, 5 cut-and-fill tunnels with a total length of 1,425 meters, 17 link roads and three central toll barriers, among other infrastructure.

The average daily intensity (ADI) once operating is envisaged at 32,000 vehicles, whilst the income portfolio throughout the lifetime of the concession will reach 12,250 million euros. Revenue from the freeway will be via direct toll, with a mechanism for restoring financial equilibrium for the franchisee through tariff reviews.

The contract includes the construction of a system of freeways running for a length of 186 km (100 km of freeway and 86 km of secondary roads) made up of two sections:

* Stage 1:Rome-Latina section 68.3 km long, subdivided into: A12 Rome – Tor de’Cenci link road, and Rome “Tor de’ Cenci – Latina “Borgo Piave” section.. 
* Stage 2: Cisterna – Valmontone connecting section, 31.5 km long​
Full press release: http://www.sacyr.com/es_en/Channel/...ases/2016/20160713-Autopista-Roma-Latina.aspx


----------



## VITORIA MAN

money for spain


----------



## keber

Tommorow I'll travel to Sicily over A1 and A3. Last time I went there was 7 years ago but it was not on weekend. I will start early in the morning and I'm aware of various autostrada improvements over past years. What can I expect on July Saturdays?


----------



## Stuu

Not autostrada-related but does anyone know what the story here is? The road across the middle seems to be a modern super two type road with GSJs that has been built and then partly abandoned, if you follow it from one end to the other


----------



## Suburbanist

keber said:


> Tommorow I'll travel to Sicily over A1 and A3. Last time I went there was 7 years ago but it was not on weekend. I will start early in the morning and I'm aware of various autostrada improvements over past years. What can I expect on July Saturdays?


There are some extra traffic but the worse is last weekend of July and August. The ferry might have a line as well but congestion in the island itself is not that bad except on the second half of August


----------



## italystf

Stuu said:


> Not autostrada-related but does anyone know what the story here is? The road across the middle seems to be a modern super two type road with GSJs that has been built and then partly abandoned, if you follow it from one end to the other


It seems that a bridge collapsed.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@40.7...4!1s2PsYeyZb1-RZRDhDhBAGVA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
The rest of the road is open, but it's in poor condition without road markings at all.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@40.7...4!1sp_WwQO9Zkv_Ulqn7xJCE5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Old rusty signs
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@40.7...4!1sGBsWbji0OrXb-pFT6PxxNg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## g.spinoza

~3 km of expressway SS223 "di Paganico" near Palazzo Lama have been open to traffic yesterday

http://www.i-siena.it/comunicati-st...i-lavori-corso-ss223-paganico-maxilotto/12783

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/43.1105/11.3060


----------



## x-type

i have a question about tolls on A36: yesterday i drove there, i expected that i can pay toll in 15 days after usind the motorway. but now i see that i had to do the registration. am i in problem now? can i do the registration after using the motorway and make payment?


----------



## italystf

x-type said:


> i have a question about tolls on A36: yesterday i drove there, i expected that i can pay toll in 15 days after usind the motorway. but now i see that i had to do the registration. am i in problem now? can i do the registration after using the motorway and make payment?


Yes, no problem, you can register late.
Or even not register at all, and pay only if you get some notification at home, that probably isn't going to happen as you live outside Italy. :lol:


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Yes, no problem, you can register late.
> Or even not register at all, and pay only if you get some notification at home, that probably isn't going to happen as you live outside Italy. :lol:


are you sure that thy don't send it abroad? i used my company's car, and knowing my accountants, if they get a bill on those 4,10€ ( :lol: ) they will make really big deal of it because i doubt they've heard for free-flow


----------



## Suburbanist

Oh and I forgot to say you can buy ferry tickets online.

That way you avoid the ticket queue and go to the embarkation line straight away


----------



## MichiH

brick84 said:


> *SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta, Sicily*
> 
> _5 km of a next stretch from Caltanissetta to junction of highway A19 opened to traffic today_
> www.stradeanas.it





italystf said:


> *8 July 2016*
> 
> A 5-km section of SS640 opened to traffic in Sicily between the junction with A19 and the interchange of Caltanissetta Nord.
> SS640 will became a full expressway connecting Agrigento with A19 near Caltanissetta.


According to OSM, the section has a length of about 7km and does not end at an interchange: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...92;329477;178527;262776;56648;243718;0;239634.

About 4km near Cannemaschi i/c seem to be in service: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...17046;193977;71592;339889;99545;423145;158175. Does anyone know when the section was opened?

How long is the remaining section u/c b/n Cannemaschi and Caltanissetta (21km?) and what's the estimated completion date?


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> ~3 km of expressway SS223 "di Paganico" near Palazzo Lama have been open to traffic yesterday
> 
> http://www.i-siena.it/comunicati-st...i-lavori-corso-ss223-paganico-maxilotto/12783
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/43.1105/11.3060


In total, 11km are to be widened. The remaining ~8km section is mentioned in the news article but I'm not sure what it means:



> Proseguono al contempo le lavorazioni sul resto del cantiere. [...] L’apertura al traffico è prevista, con successivi stralci, a partire dalla fine del 2016 e nel corso del prossimo anno.
> 
> Google translated:
> Continue while the work on the rest of the yard. [...] The opening to traffic is expected, with the following excerpts, from the end of 2016 and in the course of next year.


To be opened for traffic in late 2016 or 2017?


----------



## MichiH

Any news about A52 "extension"?



MichiH said:


> italystf said:
> 
> 
> 
> A52 in Italy should be completed by early 2018.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you talking about this section?
> 
> *A52:* rededication Novate Milanese – Paderno Dugnano (SS35) ~6km (1st July 2016) – project – map
> 
> 
> 
> italystf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, SP46 dual carriaggeway north of Milan (6km) will become A52 when widenings work are completed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g.spinoza said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw a recent estimate of 1st July 2016
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




sotonsi said:


> There's that bit that is rededication described by MichiH, and there's the new build bit parallel to the existing road that looks like it's more work, which is probably what they are talking about as opening early 2018.





MichiH said:


> ^^ If I got you right, the western section is to be opened in July 2016 (~4.5km), the eastern section (b/n exit 2 and exit 3) is to be opened in early 2018!? :?


Is the widening of the western section completed and dedicated/signed A52 now? Or any updated estimated completion date?

*A52:* rededication Novate Milanese – Paderno Dugnano-Bollate (SS35) ~4.5km (1st July 2016) – project – map


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> According to OSM, the section has a length of about 7km and does not end at an interchange: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...92;329477;178527;262776;56648;243718;0;239634.


Maybe it wasn't updated correctly on OSM.
I think that 5 km are those which weren't 4-lane yet, over a 7-km total stretch.



> About 4km near Cannemaschi i/c seem to be in service: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...17046;193977;71592;339889;99545;423145;158175. Does anyone know when the section was opened?


According to wikipedia that section was opened 16th April 2012, all the way from Vecchia Dama.



> How long is the remaining section u/c b/n Cannemaschi and Caltanissetta (21km?) and what's the estimated completion date?


It should be ~27 km and the due date is December 2016.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> It should be ~27 km and the due date is December 2016.


27km? That means, the section which has recently been opened ends at SS626? :?

u/c: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...03711;1258065;2213574;1219952;2285672;1206340


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> In total, 11km are to be widened. The remaining ~8km section is mentioned in the news article but I'm not sure what it means:
> 
> To be opened for traffic in late 2016 or 2017?


It will be opened piece by piece, in different stages between end-2016 and whole 2017.


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> 27km? That means, the section which has recently been opened ends at SS626? :?


I looked on wikipedia, Cannemaschi is at km 37.2, Xirbi at 65... maybe osm isn't correct... I don't know.



MichiH said:


> Any news about A52 "extension"?
> 
> Is the widening of the western section completed and dedicated/signed A52 now? Or any updated estimated completion date?
> 
> *A52:* rededication Novate Milanese – Paderno Dugnano-Bollate (SS35) ~4.5km (1st July 2016) – project – map


I think the western section was opened in April 2015...


----------



## MichiH

^^ Correct, 2km on 27th April 2015. I'm talking about the western-most section of the eastern section, let's call it "middle section" .


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> ^^ Correct, 2km on 27th April 2015. I'm talking about the western-most section of the eastern section, let's call it "middle section" .


I'm a bit puzzled, because that section has a due date of 2018, and I don't think it was ever intended to be opened in 2016...


----------



## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> I'm a bit puzzled, because that section has a due date of 2018, and I don't think it was ever intended to be opened in 2016...


In the Italian thread they say first quarter 2017...


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> In the Italian thread they say first quarter 2017...


Ok, middle section (~4.5km) in early 2017, eastern section (~1.5km) in early 2018.

btw: I've just realized that I have a copy-paste error for A52 in my list .


----------



## g.spinoza

An interesting document (sadly only in Italian) about the new A14 + tangenziale widening project around Bologna - the _Passante di Mezzo_:

http://www.passantedibologna.it/doc/dossier-4-stampa.pdf


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria: viaduct "Italia" opened to traffic in 26 July*

http://www.stradeanas.it/news/dettaglio/id/6710


----------



## brick84

*A20 Palermo-Messina*

_'Tindari' and 'Capo d'Orlando' tunnels after retraining_





http://www.amnotizie.it/2016/07/21/...lo-e-rocca-dalle-16-di-oggi-alle-7-di-domani/





*VIDEO:*


VIDEO - Galleria Tindari


 VIDEO - Galleria Capo d'Orlando


----------



## ChrisZwolle

'retraining'? Renovation?


----------



## Suburbanist

The new alignment of south approach to Viadotto Italia








Sorce: ANAS

For comparison, the old pillars of the old alignment


----------



## IThomas

Mayor of Bologna, Infrastructure Minister and Autostrade per l'Italia presented "Passante di Bologna", a €650 million project expected to be concluded by 2021.
http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/impr...e-crocevia-d-italia-210434.shtml?uuid=ADl7pow






*project dossier* --> http://www.passantedibologna.it/doc/dossier-4-stampa.pdf


----------



## g.spinoza

8 km of expressway SS 729 opened in Sardinia yesterday.

I haven't found a single article stating from where to where, they say from Monti to Olbia but that's more than 20 km. It should be from Enas to the SS 131dcn.

EDIT: I found out that this stretch was already opened one month ago: now they just finished laying anti-rain asphalt.


----------



## Fab87

IThomas said:


> Mayor of Bologna, Infrastructure Minister and Autostrade per l'Italia presented "Passante di Bologna", a €650 million project expected to be concluded by 2021.
> http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/impr...e-crocevia-d-italia-210434.shtml?uuid=ADl7pow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *project dossier* --> http://www.passantedibologna.it/doc/dossier-4-stampa.pdf


This is by far the best option and i'm glad they have chosen it.
Great video btw


----------



## Suburbanist

Fab87 said:


> This is by far the best option and i'm glad they have chosen it.
> Great video btw


It's not, the northern bypass was much better


----------



## g.spinoza

Come on, that project was preposterous...


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> Come on, that project was preposterous...


They said the same once about Passante di mestre....


----------



## Fab87

Suburbanist said:


> It's not, the northern bypass was much better


I wouldn't have used it as most of people, the differenze in km is insane.
Passante di Mestre is something completely different


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> They said the same once about Passante di mestre....


Passante di Mestre is much more similar in length to the old motorway than Passante nord is to current A14... The two are not comparable.


----------



## g.spinoza

An interesting document (in Italian) about the Superstrada Pedemontana Veneta.
Maybe the most interesting thing is a photogallery (it has always been difficult to find pictures about these works):

http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/...7-26/la-superstrada-pedemontana-veneta-53961/


----------



## keber

I'm currently on Sicily on vacation and I hope my car will come home in one piece. I can handle with roadside vegetation, almost non existent road markings, confusing signs and dark tunnels (even new ones). But I can't forgive such idiotic expansion joints on some viaducts which can almost break suspension even on some newer parts of A3.


----------



## -Pino-

Suburbanist said:


> The difference is not geographic, but instead whether a road is operated under private concession/administration, or not.


Basically having ANAS as your road operator is worse than a private concessionaire. A publically owned concessionaire (think motorways on Sicily) sits somewhere in between. But among ANAS-operated roads you see differences too. That's not only between roads that had a relatively recent upgrade and roads that did not, but it is also easy to identify regional differences. And as much as I had loved it to be different, roads further South and on Sardegna do appear worse.

Not that the South is necessarily to blame, by the way. It probably starts as a funding issue, itself driven by lower population and much less of a transit role crucial for the country's economy. And from there, it's gone from bad to worse with the wrong constructors being hired for reasons well known and with results well known.


----------



## Fab87

Luki_SL said:


> These photos look like a visualisation, not real road


What? It's the real road


----------



## Verso

Autovie Venete reports of a traffic jam of 18 km on A23 Udine-Palmanova and 6 km on A4 before the Trieste-Lisert toll station.


----------



## Fab87

Verso said:


> Autovie Venete reports of a traffic jam of 18 km on A23 Udine-Palmanova and 6 km on A4 before the Trieste-Lisert toll station.


It's the sheer consequence of the closing of Slovenian A2 between villach and Lubiana which occurred today


----------



## Verso

^^ It was probably even more than 6 km before Trieste. I don't know where all those 24 km disappeared, because it wasn't particularly congested in Slovenia around Trieste.


----------



## brick84

italystf said:


> The problem is that also some recent works are affected by problems.
> We need to wait several years to see whether new constructions are good or not. And of course even good works deteriorate rapidly without proper maintenance.
> Another problem is the central government, that scrapped plans for important highways like A3 and SS106.


Yes, of course.

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

Stretch from Cassibile to Siracusa recently upgraded





Ste_14 said:


>


----------



## italystf

^^ Nice, I was there in 2009 and I remember that that stretch was in horrible conditions. Now it appears as good as the more recent Catania-Augusta motorway.


----------



## bogdymol

A cargo airplane from DHL has crash-landed nearby Milan Bergamo airport. It has left the runway and stopped onto a nearby road:


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Nobody was hurt, neither the pilots, nor anyone on the road (it was 4 am so the roads were almost empty).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It appears to have blocked the SS 342 which is a four-lane divided highway. It would have crossed 4 separate roadways before coming to a stop, the airport private road, SP 116 and both carriageways of SS 342.


----------



## g.spinoza

The road interested was SS 591 bis. SS 342 is way closer to the center of Bergamo.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I see, Google Earth also labels SS 591 bis as SS 342. 

Google makes much more mistakes with mapping than most people think. Routes are frequently mislabeled, and the route planning often takes people on 'roads' not suited for driving with a regular car, bus or semi truck.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ It's better OSM


----------



## mistikos

14 km of SS16 from Maglie to Otranto opened today: 
http://www.stradeanas.it/news/dettaglio/id/6740


----------



## keber

Autobahn-mann said:


> ^^ It's better OSM


Not really. Map providers don't take into account that some roads in Italian towns can be too narrow for normal cars to get through. Just a week ago Sygic navigation took me twice through the road in Sorrento, which had just 1,60 m width. Luckily I could still turn around early enough not to stuck somewhere. And as I see on GM and OSM, both roads also don't show to normal user as impassable for normal cars.


----------



## brick84

*S.S. 16 "Adriatica" - Apulia region*

opened to traffic


----------



## roaddor

Is there any ferry connection from Otranto to Greece or Albania?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The ferries depart at Brindisi.


----------



## italystf

roaddor said:


> Is there any ferry connection from Otranto to Greece or Albania?


Yes, there is a ferry between Otranto and Valona. Beside this, Otranto is a major touristic destination.


----------



## g.spinoza

Works for the direct connection A35-A4 near Brescia are going to begin after the summer. Tender was awarded to a joint venture Pizzarrotti-Itinera for 50 M€, and are going to last 10-11 months.

http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/...-itinera-per-linterconnessione-con-la4-54535/


----------



## celevac

MichiH said:


> ^^
> 
> 
> 
> 1400m not (yet) opened? Is the opened section 14.1km or 12.7km?


12.7km are opened entirely, 1.4km are still not ready. 

As promised, here are some of my pictures from last week, driving from Otranto towards Maglie


----------



## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> Reported flooding yesterday in Puglia. This looks like SS379
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italy has a lot of severe weather. There are frequently flash floods, large hail and occassionaly a strong tornado.



Somewhere I read Italy is the EU country with the most MM of rainfall


----------



## Verso

Eddard Stark said:


> Somewhere I read Italy is the EU country with the most MM of rainfall


1. Slovenia - 1,393 mm
2. Italy - 944 mm
3. Germany - 933 mm

http://www.answers.com/Q/Which_European_country_has_the_highest_rainfall

I didn't know. :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Rainfall rates are quite dependent on the regional circumstances. So there are large variations in precipitation within a country. For example Norway has both the wettest and some of the driest areas in Europe. Bergen receives 2,250 mm of precipitation annually, while some valleys in the rain shadow less than 200 km away receive less than 300 mm. 

Italy has a lot of severe weather events, but they often occur on different locations, so it doesn't influence the long-term average as much. Flash flooding events can be very local due to supercells moving over a certain area.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Milan and Rome are in the top ten cities for amount of rain! Milan is Number 2 after Zurich


----------



## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> Rainfall rates are quite dependent on the regional circumstances. So there are large variations in precipitation within a country. For example Norway has both the wettest and some of the driest areas in Europe. Bergen receives 2,250 mm of precipitation annually, while some valleys in the rain shadow less than 200 km away receive less than 300 mm.
> 
> Italy has a lot of severe weather events, but they often occur on different locations, so it doesn't influence the long-term average as much. Flash flooding events can be very local due to supercells moving over a certain area.



Well, regardless we get more rain than any other country bar Slovenia, and concentrated in less 'events' than north European countries


----------



## ILTarantino

Apulia is one the most dry regions in Italy, but is notable for its extreme autumnal rainfalls. Consider that in october of last year, average precipitation in Taranto amounted to little more than 300 millimetres of water, as opposed to the norm of 61 millimetres... 16 October will be remembered as a dramatic day (220 mm of rain - 8.7 inches - in 2 hours).


----------



## WalkTheWorld

Slovenia lies entirely in the sub-alpine area. So the rainfall is similar to what we get over a vast territory along the French, Swiss and Austrian borders. But contrary to Atlantic countries we have long dry spells and long rainy events. If you don't like the wheather in Holland just wait fifteen minutes . F you don't like it here, you are busted. It'll stay.


----------



## Verso

WalkTheWorld said:


> Slovenia lies entirely in the sub-alpine area. So the rainfall is similar to what we get over a vast territory along the French, Swiss and Austrian borders.


And the wettest place in Italy (Musi) lies 8 km from Slovenia.


----------



## Insulateshipper

Eddard Stark said:


> Milan and Rome are in the top ten cities for amount of rain! Milan is Number 2 after Zurich


Yes and Milan is 5th position hottest city in Europe (Average annual temperature)
It's allmost subtropical climate.
And Rome is in third position (behind Lisbon and Athen.)


----------



## ILTarantino

Insulateshipper said:


> Yes and Milan is 5th position hottest city in Europe (Average annual temperature)
> It's allmost subtropical climate.
> And Rome is in third position (behind Lisbon and Athen.)


Forget about the Koppen climate classification. It's a disaster. Milan, as he sees it, has the same climate as San Paolo, Brazil :lol: :lol: :lol:
Milan has a humid continental climate.

*Milan* (Italy) 









*San Paolo* (Brazil)


----------



## italystf

Other road numbering oddities:

In the province of Brescia there are some provincial roads (SP) that are numbered with Roman numbers. However, other roads with the same number, but Arabic, exist. For example, SP1 and SPI are different roads.
In Brescia province, former national (SS) roads that became provincial are numbered SP BS.
So there are, for example: SPXI, SP11 and SP BS 11, three different roads!

The Metropolitan City of Rome (formerly province of Rome), is split in two areas (North and South), each of them has its own SP numbering scheme. So two SP1, two SP2, two SP3 and so on...


----------



## CNGL

^^ It's still Province of Rome for me regardless how it's oficially called now. Same with every other second level subnational division in Italy (Except Aosta Valley, which is a region with no provinces but gets counted as one if necessary).

I've found SP 11 and SP BS 11 (labelled as another SP 11) in Brescia province in Google Maps, but not SP XI so far. And no duplicate numbers around Rome so far.


----------



## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

the works/costructione yards on new lots 'Rosolini-Modica' from above





Alpha100 said:


>


----------



## g.spinoza

CNGL said:


> ^^ It's still Province of Rome for me regardless how it's oficially called now. Same with every other second level subnational division in Italy (Except Aosta Valley, which is a region with no provinces but gets counted as one if necessary).
> 
> I've found SP 11 and SP BS 11 (labelled as another SP 11) in Brescia province in Google Maps, but not SP XI so far. And no duplicate numbers around Rome so far.


Sp xi runs from Iseo to Rovato.it is not signed as such on Google maps, but it is on openstreetmaps.


----------



## CNGL

That means SP XI ends at SP BS 11! :nuts: Italian numbering never ceases to amaze me. I thought Spain was bad.


----------



## g.spinoza

In the Italian thread I came across the project to build a spur of A14 around the city of Bari, connecting to SS16 near Mola di Bari:
http://mobilita.regione.puglia.it/images/prt/Tavola n. 2 - Trasporto Stradale.pdf

In this pdf you can see many more projects, the one I'm referring to is labeled s2013.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Sp xi runs from Iseo to Rovato.it is not signed as such on Google maps, but it is on openstreetmaps.


I think OSM is superior to GM for the following aspects:
- Borders are more accurate (both national and sub-national)
- Presence of municipal borders
- Road numbers and street names are more accurate (not 100% flawless, but better than Google)
- Usually is more updated than Google (i.e. a new road may appear 1 day after on OSM and 1 week later on GM)


----------



## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

_update works for new lots 'Rosolini-Modica'_














host image


----------



## brick84

*A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*

here the 6th lot in south direction





mistikos said:


>


----------



## brick84

*Highway Catania-Siracusa*









by _*mistikos*_


----------



## italystf

Some photos of SS202 south of Trieste (and I/C with Autostrada Sistiana-Rabuiese at Lacotisce), taken by me from Monte Carso (above Bagnoli della Rosandra, elevation around 400m).


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ I can't see the photos


----------



## mistikos

*Motorway A18 Siracusa-Gela from Siracusa to Noto and SP59, realized by me on Saturday 17th September 2016 (the video of the motorway CT-SR has also realized on 17th September on my travel from Cosenza to Noto):*


----------



## Suburbanist

^^@mistikos: do you drive a truck or bus by any chance?


----------



## mistikos

Yes, I travelled by bus, but I didn't drive (I'm only 16!)


----------



## Verso

Autobahn-mann said:


> ^^ I can't see the photos


Me neither. I never see those "googleusercontent" photos.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Me neither... After all these years Google is still incapable of fixing that problem.


----------



## italystf

I've never had problem with pictures uploaded in Google before, tomorrow I'll post them again.
BTW, can you see my picture on the last post on the Roadside Rest Area? It was uploaded in Google too.


----------



## g.spinoza

I can see your pictures.


----------



## italystf

My photos are around 20-25% wider than the average post size. Could this be a problem for some browsers or OSs? I should have resized them to 70-80%.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> BTW, can you see my picture on the last post on the Roadside Rest Area?


Nope.


----------



## Highway89

italystf said:


> I've never had problem with pictures uploaded in Google before, tomorrow I'll post them again.
> BTW, can you see my picture on the last post on the Roadside Rest Area? It was uploaded in Google too.


I can see them on Chrome, but not on Firefox or IE. I think it's because you need to be logged into a Google account if you want to see "googleusercontent" photos.


----------



## CNGL

Same happens to me. Now I'm on Chrome in a tablet and I can see the photos, but I couldn't see them in the computer with Firefox or in a laptop strangely with Chrome.


----------



## cinxxx

I drove today a short stretch of the A36 between SS35 and A9. 
I saw some signs about it having electronic toll. Of course since I have German plates I don't own any transponder. What will happen? Will I get something by post to Germany?
I'm still here tomorrow (lake Como area), leaving Italy on Tuesday...


----------



## italystf

cinxxx said:


> I drove today a short stretch of the A36 between SS35 and A9.
> I saw some signs about it having electronic toll. Of course since I have German plates I don't own any transponder. What will happen? Will I get something by post to Germany?
> I'm still here tomorrow (lake Como area), leaving Italy on Tuesday...


You should* get some notification at home, and you can pay it from your bank account, post, etc...

*I've heard that initially they had some problems with vehicles registered abroad, I don't know if they have solved it.
If you don't get anything at home, don't worry, you don't have the hassle to pay.
It's not mandatory to have a transponder to drive on A36, A59 and A60, as they send bills at home too.


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through Napoli (Italy) Tangenziale di Napoli 28.07.2016 Timelapse x4


----------



## brick84

*Highway A18 Siracusa-Gela*

_Update works of new lots from Rosolini to Modica_


----------



## brick84

host immagini


----------



## MichiH

italystf said:


> Probably nothing, at least in the short term. If they'll build someting in the future, it will be just a 20km extension till Pieve di Cadore.
> In the 60s and 70s they planned to go extend it directly to Austria (for this reason A27 Mestre-Conegliano became the first 3x2 motorway in Italy, when it opened in 1972), but then they decided that Brenner and Tarvisio will become the two major routes to Austria, and this project was thus scrapped.
> Later, they planned to extend A27 eastbound, joining A23 near Tolmezzo. However, it would have required dozen of tunnels and viaducts across a very difficult terrain (I think a 12km double bore tunnel was also included), and it would have been useless too, as Venice-Tarviso will remain shorter via the current A4 and A23, rather than via A27 and A23. So, also this *project is no longer seriously considered*.


Never say never!

http://www.altoadigeinnovazione.it/autostrada-alemagna-la-provincia-bolzano-lallungamento/

https://www.stol.it/Artikel/Politik-im-Ueberblick/Lokal/Alemagna-Autobahn-Vorstoesse-aus-dem-Veneto

The Transportation Commitee of the European Parliament has recently discussed the project. The commitee report is to be discussed on 1st November.


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> Never say never!
> 
> http://www.altoadigeinnovazione.it/autostrada-alemagna-la-provincia-bolzano-lallungamento/
> 
> https://www.stol.it/Artikel/Politik-im-Ueberblick/Lokal/Alemagna-Autobahn-Vorstoesse-aus-dem-Veneto
> 
> The Transportation Commitee of the European Parliament has recently discussed the project. The commitee report is to be discussed on 1st November.


That's just political talk for now, like it has been for decades, and it will remain so for a while.
The exact route is not defined yet, it would take years to be decided, then funded and planned, we'll have dozens of appeals against construction, then (if ever approved...) we'll built it. At best, the whole process will require few decades. It's difficult to make so long-term forecasts because we don't know how our economy will be in the far future.
I think the extension of A31 towards Trento (aparently it will be an expressway and not a motorway), is a more realistic project for now, and we're still talking of medium-long term.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ True, but this time the political will comes from the European Union...


----------



## MichiH

^^ Exactly, that why I've posted it 

Nevertheless, I agree that it would take decades and I don't think it will ever been built...


----------



## g.spinoza

Works on the extension of A15 from Parma to Trecasali have just started. Very few news on the web, only thing I found is some pictures on a Facebook anti-motorway NIMBY group showing red construction fences being deployed.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> Works on the extension of A15 from Parma to Trecasali have just started.


No info at all? What's the section length, 10km? Will there be a bridge over the river just north of the A1 interchange or a narrow curve to the west?


----------



## narkelion

MichiH said:


> No info at all? What's the section length, 10km? Will there be a bridge over the river just north of the A1 interchange or a narrow curve to the west?


They will move the actual intersection A15-A1 further to the west and cross the Taro river north of it:


----------



## g.spinoza

The new stretch should be 9.5 km (the whole works regard 12 km of motorway, they're going to renovate 2.5 km of old A15).

In this page you can find a (very tiny) image of what the route would be, so, yes, a bridge over river Taro is in the projects.

EDIT: Please narkelion, tell me where you found this image. It's frustrating, I cannot find anything


----------



## narkelion

g.spinoza said:


> The new stretch should be 9.5 km (the whole works regard 12 km of motorway, they're going to renovate 2.5 km of old A15).
> 
> In this page you can find a (very tiny) image of what the route would be, so, yes, a bridge over river Taro is in the projects.
> 
> EDIT: Please narkelion, tell me where you found this image. It's frustrating, I cannot find anything


Actually, I struggled a while trying to find something. :lol:

Found that image along with a couple of articles on the web-newspaper ParmaToday. Links (italian only, sorry!):

Tirreno-Brennero, il Ministero approva il progetto esecutivo: "I lavori partiranno a settembre" 
In un documento inviato dalla ditta Pizzarotti al Comune di Trecasali la mappa dei tagli che inizieranno i primi giorni di settembre: sono gli alberi 'interferenti', posizionati sul percorso del primo tratto di autostrada 
TiBre, viaggio inchiesta nei luoghi che saranno cancellati dal cemento


----------



## MichiH

italystf said:


> SS318: Casacastalda – Valfabbrica 6.8km (< 2007 to late summer 2016)


Any news about this section? Is it opened for traffic now? (it's indicated open on OSM and GM)

The neighboring section Valfabbrica – Pianello was already opened on 28th July.


----------



## g.spinoza

It is, but for the moment being only with one carriageway... the other one is planned but funds are still missing.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Yes ~4 out of 6.8km 1 c/w only. When was it opened, on 28th July?


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> ^^ Yes ~4 out of 6.8km 1 c/w only. When was it opened, on 28th July?


Yes, on that date they opened the whole ss 77 and 318.


----------



## italystf

I hope A15 Parma-Mantova (also known as Ti-Bre, Tyrrenian Sea - Brenner) will be built in reasonable time, otherwise the short section between Parma and Trecasali will remain an useless stub, like A21racc near Brescia or A31 north of Vicenza.


----------



## brick84

*Tangenziale Ovest Milano A50*












[/url]Inizio  by Magnetic Iron, su Flickr


- junction A6 Genoa km 10
- junction the A4 Turin - Venice km. 25
- junction A8-A9 Varese - Como km. 30
- junction Gravellona Toce 26 km. 30
- Towards Malpensa MXP


----------



## Luki_SL

^^Is it new sign?


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> Actually, I struggled a while trying to find something. :lol:
> 
> Found that image along with a couple of articles on the web-newspaper ParmaToday. Links (italian only, sorry!):
> 
> Tirreno-Brennero, il Ministero approva il progetto esecutivo: "I lavori partiranno a settembre"
> In un documento inviato dalla ditta Pizzarotti al Comune di Trecasali la mappa dei tagli che inizieranno i primi giorni di settembre: sono gli alberi 'interferenti', posizionati sul percorso del primo tratto di autostrada
> TiBre, viaggio inchiesta nei luoghi che saranno cancellati dal cemento


I found some better looking images here:
http://www.sixia.it/site/b/TIBRE.htm
Pity for the low resolution...


----------



## -Pino-

Luki_SL said:


> ^^Is it new sign?


Something along these lines has been here for ages. The 30 km distance seems to be to the Milano Nord toll station where the A50 meets the A8. So that's not the A9 and the A26 yet. The A9 is a few kilometers down the line, at Lainate. The A26 is actually a much longer way out from there: you follow the A8 to Varese, then the A8/A26 until you finally reach the A26.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

italystf said:


> [...] otherwise the short section [...] will remain an useless stub, like [...] or A31 north of Vicenza.


A31 have low traffic rates only northern of Schio-Thiene and southern of Longare-Montegalda


----------



## Luki_SL

The overpass collapsed on the SS36 Milano-Lecco. One man dead, several injured.


More : http://www.milanotoday.it/cronaca/crollo-ponte-valassina-morto-feriti.html

 Location


----------



## Coccodrillo

A bridge over the SS 36 (Milan-Valtellina superstrada) carrying the SP 49 local road north of Milan collapsed today killing at least one man. A technician checked the bridge around three hours before, seeing its very bad conditions asked to close immediately the bridge. However, those responsible for this decision wanted a formal inspection from Anas before closing the road, but wasting time with this bureaucracy meant that a truck fully loaded with steel passed over the bridge making it collapse.

Source: http://milano.corriere.it/notizie/c...za-84e4747e-9d28-11e6-baae-ba981bf8dcd8.shtml

The bridge: https://www.google.ch/maps/@45.8083...4!1s3f8PrG-J430HNYOiHcLHYA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## Verso

:runaway:


----------



## Luki_SL

Coccodrillo said:


> A technician checked the bridge around three hours before, seeing its very bad conditions asked to close immediately the bridge. However, those responsible for this decision wanted a formal inspection from Anas before closing the road, but wasting time with this bureaucracy meant that a truck fully loaded with steel passed over the bridge making it collapse.


The bridge was in bad conditions some month ago. It doesn`t look good on Google Street View...


----------



## italystf

Live scene of the bridge collapse caught by CCTV cameras:


----------



## italystf

Video taken by a drone after the disaster:


----------



## brick84

Someone in this topic said that this kind of disaster happens just in southern Italy.


----------



## x-type

i drove there nearby this summer and SS36 is generally in poor condition


----------



## italystf

x-type said:


> i drove there nearby this summer and SS36 is generally in poor condition


The viaduct that collapsed isn't related to SS36, as it carried SP49 that is managed by the Province of Lecco, while SS36 is managed by ANAS.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> The viaduct that collapsed isn't related to SS36, as it carried SP49 that is managed by the Province of Lecco, while SS36 is managed by ANAS.


i was actually refering to objects around SS36. i drove on several Italian superstradas and this one was definitely one of those in poor condition, what is little bit weird regarding to quite heavy traffic that it carries


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The bridge doesn't look too hot on Street View, but on the other hand there are many bridges like that in Italy or other countries like Belgium or Germany.


----------



## Gedeon

italystf said:


> The viaduct that collapsed isn't related to SS36, as it carried SP49 that is managed by the Province of Lecco, while SS36 is managed by ANAS.


WTF?

In Croatia all objects crossing highways or state roads are maintained by highways/state roads agency.


----------



## x-type

Gedeon said:


> WTF?
> 
> In Croatia all objects crossing highways or state roads are maintained by highways/state roads agency.


what if Ž road overpasses the motorway? isn't eglible agency in that case the county one (Županijska uprava za ceste), not state one?
the same as here - strada statale e strada provinciale.


----------



## keber

Object itself should be in management of a higher ranking agency - imagine a forest or farm road crossing of motorway - farmers shouldn't maintain a motorway crossing object. Road itself on an object is managed from other agency.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> Never say never!
> 
> http://www.altoadigeinnovazione.it/autostrada-alemagna-la-provincia-bolzano-lallungamento/
> 
> https://www.stol.it/Artikel/Politik-im-Ueberblick/Lokal/Alemagna-Autobahn-Vorstoesse-aus-dem-Veneto
> 
> The Transportation Commitee of the European Parliament has recently discussed the project. The commitee report is to be discussed on 1st November.


Alemagna project was rejected by the EU commitee.

http://www.ansa.it/trentino/notizie...gna_84a5c726-6a7b-44d8-825f-d7d446267a9e.html

https://www.stol.it/Artikel/Politik...magna-EU-Parlament-stimmt-gegen-Verlaengerung


----------



## hofburg

^ why it has to be discussed by EU anyway?


----------



## MichiH

^^ I think it was proposed for Improving the connection and accessibility of the transport infrastructure in Central and Eastern Europe.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=REPORT&reference=A8-2016-0282&language=EN



> 22. Considers it a matter of priority for the socio-economic development of the eastern part of EUSALP to complete the Italian A27 motorway, with an exit in Austria, and to improve the Italian and Austrian road network in this geographical area, by means of appropriate ancillary works


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It turns out the truck that collapsed the SS 36 overpass weighed 108 tons.

http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/ar...cia-04414f5d-8ab6-45e2-a11f-0e498f77738c.html


----------



## Luki_SL

ChrisZwolle said:


> It turns out the truck that collapsed the SS 36 overpass weighed 108 tons.


*108tons??* :nuts: This truck was overloaded twice of more hno:


----------



## Verso

Is that allowed? :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Special transports can be much heavier than regular loads, but they usually need a permit. This bridge does not have a posted weight limit. 

I'm not sure if you can call this a 'once-in-a-bridge-lifetime' transport, as this is a bridge that is part of a major exit that serves quite some industry. It's surely not an everyday load, but once in a lifetime?


----------



## italystf

Which one will be the next? hno:

Bridge over Sangro river on SS652 near Lanciano, Abruzzo










A viaduct on A6 Turin-Savona


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I wonder how many bridges they would have to close to traffic if they followed German bridge safety regulations and the Eurocodes.


----------



## italystf

A viaduct on A26


----------



## Luki_SL

italystf said:


> A viaduct on A26


Where is that precisely ?


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Somewhere here:
https://www.google.it/maps/@44.4540391,8.7438225,1056m/data=!3m1!1e3


----------



## survola

italystf said:


> Live scene of the bridge collapse caught by CCTV cameras:


Maybe the central beam wasn't properly placed on pillars? It looks too short to me, and maybe this is why it fell.


----------



## g.spinoza

I don't think that was the case... the bridge was there for 40 years...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This bridge type is also common in Belgium - including high-volume bridges - and they also don't look very healthy at times.

Example: E25 near Liège.


----------



## Angulo

italystf said:


> A viaduct on A26


I've already seen this photo a few years ago for a few times. In 2011 as i remember.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^There was no repair from this time?


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ It was deemed as safe by the engineers who checked.


----------



## keber

It does seem safe enough - foundations for such pillars are usually pretty deep or they sit on pilots.


----------



## italystf

Another perspective of the collapsed bridge on SS36:










You can see the high number of wheels of the truck, so it looks like a special vehicle authorized for oversize transports (it weighted 108 tons, while regular trucks weight max 40 tons).

As for ownership of the bridge, the bridge itself is under ANAS competence (like SS36), even if the road across it (SP49) is under provincial competence.


----------



## italystf

Another viaduct over SS36 has been precautionarily closed to all vehicles and pedestrians, due to a suspicious crack on the pavement.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^That`s almost next to the collapsed viaduct. The Anas maybe started to check 
more precisely all the viaducts on SS36.


----------



## Exethalion

It's also a different design of bridge, which implies that this is a general problem of poor maintenance and inspection.

Here it looks like the abutment is not strong enough to resist the lateral forces on the bridge, causing the main span to be pushed upwards. Or it could be subsidence causing the roadway to slip below the supported section.


----------



## keber

Luki_SL said:


> ^^That`s almost next to the collapsed viaduct. The Anas maybe started to check
> more precisely all the viaducts on SS36.


I think they should check ALL viaducts. Some of them are really in bad condition.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Normally countries would have some bridge inspection program, usually a brief visual inspection every 2 or 3 years and a more in-depth inspection every 5-6 years. This is especially important today as many bridges are approaching the end of their design life (some prematurely).


----------



## g.spinoza

On a happier note, Lungarno Torrigiani, the road in Florence that collapsed into the river Arno due to a ruptured water pipe, is going to reopen tomorrow (50th anniversary of Florence flooding). Italian President Mattarella is going to attend to the ceremony.

http://corrierefiorentino.corriere....la-78c7d46c-a1d6-11e6-bf06-982613820f7a.shtml


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Wow, just next to the Ponte Vecchio! It's not strange that the president Mattarella wants to attend himself, I would also want to be there!


----------



## italystf

I'm surprised that our PM Matteo Renzi won't be there (or, at least, press didn't mention him), since he is from Florence and he also used to be the mayor of that city.


----------



## brick84

*Highway A18 Siracusa-Gela*

_new junction of Modica - update_


----------



## brick84

*A18 Messina-Catania
*












by Óscar Robres Medel, su Flickr


----------



## g.spinoza

Some impressive pictures of Forca Canapine tunnel, on SS 685, after the central Italy earthquake of some weeks ago. Nobody was hurt, fortunately.

http://www.perugiatoday.it/foto/cronaca/terremoto-norcia-galleria-forca-canapine/


----------



## brick84

All the works on *A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria has been completed *today. And the highway has taken today a new name: _"A2 - Autostrada del Mediterrano" (Mediterranean highway)_

(A2 from Fisciano to Villa San Giovanni - A3 from Napoli to Fisciano)


----------



## Luki_SL

^^A3 south of Fisciano will be resigned to A2 now?


----------



## italystf

Luki_SL said:


> ^^A3 south of Fisciano will be resigned to A2 now?


Yes.
http://www.stradeanas.it/news/dettaglio/id/7052
A2 number was previously (1962-1988) used for Rome-Naples motorway, later included in A1.


----------



## italystf

brick84 said:


> All the works on *A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria has been completed *today. And the highway has taken today a new name: _"A2 - Autostrada del Mediterrano" (Mediterranean highway)_
> 
> (A2 from Fisciano to Villa San Giovanni - A3 from Napoli to Fisciano)


Unfortunately some stretches have not been upgraded, as they were cancelled from the plan by the government last year, so they will remain like they were built in the 1970s (narrow, curvy, no shoulders).


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ What a lame map:

the cartographic basis is several years old, how could ANAS not get an update map base?
the green highlight is something that resembles MS Paint, not a GIS-level professional job worth a 2nd year IS student
two sectors had works, which never started, just cancelled, so the highway is just the same 1970s expressway standard regarding width and cramped exits, just with newer cosmetic and safety features (total of almost 40km)


----------



## italystf

Section Fisciano (A30) - Salerno (A3) was numbered RA2 (raccordo autostradale 2) before being included on A2 today.


----------



## Suburbanist

I know hope they put a toll concession there, operating with plate-number electronic tolling system (the % of foreign vehicles on the new road is rather low, especially beyond Salerno), and that they include modernization of the two 'non-modernized' sectors on the concession road exploitation plan.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting move though. I'm thinking this may be the most high-profile single motorway renumbering in Europe in 30 years or more. Spain completely renumbered it system in 2003 and Greece renumbered some motorways in 2015. Other recent renumberings, such as the Czech Republic and Slovakia changed only the prefix and/or only the numbers of planned motorways.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What a lame map:
> 
> the cartographic basis is several years old, how could ANAS not get an update map base?
> the green highlight is something that resembles MS Paint, not a GIS-level professional job worth a 2nd year IS student
> two sectors had works, which never started, just cancelled, so the highway is just the same 1970s expressway standard regarding width and cramped exits, just with newer cosmetic and safety features (total of almost 40km)


Wow, I haven't noticed before, but that map is not just old but plain wrong :lol:
RA5 (motorway branch from A3 to Potenza) is missing, while SS106 Capo Spulco-Sibari is marked as dual-carriaggeway while it isn't.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Interesting move though. I'm thinking this may be the most high-profile single motorway renumbering in Europe in 30 years or more. Spain completely renumbered it system in 2003 and Greece renumbered some motorways in 2015. Other recent renumberings, such as the Czech Republic and Slovakia changed only the prefix and/or only the numbers of planned motorways.


To make the scheme even clearer, they could include A30 Caserta-Fisciano into A2.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

italystf said:


> To make the scheme even clearer, they could include A30 Caserta-Fisciano into A2.


I agree, I think they should renumber the entire A30 to A2, so there is a long north-south route with only two numbers (A1-A2) from Milano to Reggio Calabria. I guess renumbering the entire route to A1 would be a step too far.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> I agree, I think they should renumber the entire A30 to A2, so there is a long north-south route with only two numbers (A1-A2) from Milano to Reggio Calabria. I guess renumbering the entire route to A1 would be a step too far.


An hypotetical A1 Milan - Reggio Calabria would probably be the longest motorway in Europe.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, although the A-7/AP-7 corridor in Spain is longer.


----------



## lucaf1

The A3 will be exist from Naples to Salerno.

New A2 will be from Salerno to Reggio Calabria (RA4) plus half of RA2 from the connection with the A30.


----------



## italystf

Italian roads (blue) and motorways (green) managed by ANAS









Again, very high-tech graphic work.


----------



## italystf

lucaf1 said:


> The A3 will be exist from Naples to Salerno.
> 
> New A2 will be from Salerno to Reggio Calabria (RA4) plus half of RA2 from the connection with the A30.


A2 ends in Villa San Giovanni. Villa San Giovanni - Reggio Calabria is RA4.


----------



## italystf

*SR352 Aquileia-Grado*

The movable bridge connecting the causeway from Aquileia to the island of Grado (Friuli-Venezia Giulia), opened in 1936, is now damaged beyond repair.
It will be completely removed on January 19 2017 and the replacement bridge will be installed two months laters. Meanwhile, Grado, will be accessible only from Monfalcone.








http://ilpiccolo.gelocal.it/trieste...enza-il-ponte-tra-grado-e-aquileia-1.14602776


----------



## darko06

And in the same vacation I made a trip from Matera through Metaponte, Taranto and Brindisi to Lecce and Gallatina, to see the small family museum in Lecce and the beautiful frescos from 14th or 15th century in Gallatina. The quality of so-called "Blue Motorways" there is good, somewhere even very good (Brindisi-Lecce and the Tangenziale Ovest di Lecce). One can drive normal even in the heavy showers.


----------



## Attus

"Autostrada del Sole" is/was only the original A1, i.e. Milan - Rome or both the original A1 and A2 (current A1) Milan - Rome - Naples?


----------



## Luki_SL

^^A1 Milan-Naples was named 'Autostrada del Sole'.


----------



## italystf

Luki_SL said:


> ^^A1 Milan-Naples was named 'Autostrada del Sole'.


A1 Milan-Rome and A2 Rome-Naples were parts of the Autostrada del Sole. They were linked by the Rome ringroad. A direct link was opened in 1988.


----------



## italystf

Anyway...

A1 Milan-Naples, Italy: Autostrada del Sole, built 1956-1964
A6 Paris-Lyon + A7 Lyon-Marseille, France: Autoroute du Soleil, built 1960-1971
A2 Bucharest-Constanta, Romania: Autostrada Soarelui, built 1980s-2012
Chile Route 78 Santiago-Valparaiso, Chile: Autopista del Sol, built ?-?
Carretera Federal 95D Cuernavalca-Acapulco, Mexico: Autopista del Sol, built 1989-1993

Anyone left?
It's obvious that all other were inspired by the Italian one.


----------



## italystf

delete. wrong thread


----------



## brick84

No "Autostrada del Vulcano"?? 

*Highway Catania-Siracusa*



taken by me to days ago...












invia immagini


----------



## mistikos

*Some videos taken by me on 2th December and in 4th December:*

02/12
Highway A3 from Rende to Altomonte





Highway A3 from Sibari to Morano





Highway A3 from Campotenese to Laino Borgo





Highway A3 from Laino Borgo to "Calore" viaduct





04/12
Highway A1 from Firenze Sud to Valdarno





Highway A30 from A1 to A16





Highway A3 from "Calore" viaduct to Laino Borgo





Highway A3 from Laino Borgo to Campotenese


----------



## MichiH

A question to my Italian friends 

Are all expected 2016 openings delayed to 2017 or have I missed any opening?
Are all expected 2017 openings still on schedule?



MichiH said:


> 2016 opening:
> *SS96 Barese:* north of Altamura – Mellitto 10km (December 2013 to 2016) – ? – map
> *SS96 Barese:* Mellitto – Toritto 5.4km (March 2010 to 2016) – ? – map
> *SP1 BT:* Andria-North-East – Trani-North (SS16bis) 7.5km (January 2014 to 2016) – ? – map
> *SS729:* west of Olbia-South (SS131DCN) – Olbia-Airport 2.5km (June 2012 to Fall 2016) – project – map
> *SPV:* Thiene (A31) – Breganze-West ~4km (November 2011 to Late 2016) – project – map
> *SS640:* east of Cannemaschi – east of Caltanissetta-Xirbi ~27km (April 2012 to December 2016) – project – map
> *SR8:* Talsano-North – Pulsano-East 11km (August 2014 to >= 2016) – ? – map
> 
> 2017 opening:
> *SS729:* Monti-West – Monti/Telti 6.4km (February 2015 to February 2017) – project – map
> *SS729:* Martis (SS132) – west of Oschiri 11.9km (August 2014 to March 2017) – project – map
> *SS534:* Spezzano Albanese-Terme – Sibari Marina 14km (March 2014 to March 2017) [2nd c/w] – project – map
> *A52:* rededication Novate Milanese – Paderno Dugnano-Bollate (SS35) ~4.5km (Early 2017) – project – map
> *SPV:* Marostica – Bassano-East (SS47) 8.5km (February 2013 to Early 2017) – project – map
> 
> *SS675:* Monte Romano-East – Cinelli 6.4km (July 2015 to August 2017) – project – map
> *SS223:* south of Palazzo Lama – Civitella Paganico 8km (2013 to 2017) – project – map
> *SPV:* Breganze-West – Marostica 9km (April 2014 to Late 2017) – project – map
> *SPV:* Bassano-East (SS47) – Mussolente/Loria 5km (April 2014 to Late 2017) – project – map
> *SPV:* Mussolente/Loria – Montebelluna 11.9km (October 2014 to Late 2017) – project – map
> *A18:* Rosolini – Modica 19km (June 2014 to December 2017) – project – map
> *SS96 Barese:* Toritto – Modungo/Bitetto 9km (December 2013 to December 2017) – ? – map


----------



## mistikos

You missed A3


----------



## MichiH

^^ Ahhh, A2


----------



## mistikos

For me it's A3 yet  it will be A2 soon, when ANAS will change signage


----------



## g.spinoza

SPV is in the process of changing its management, so I guess there will be delays.

About SS96, I read March 2017 as deadline.

SP1 BT is missing some funding, so no due date.

SS729 changed the company working on it. No due date, but I drove on it in September and it seemed far from complete.

SS 640 is delayed for some weeks.

Welcome to Italy.


----------



## sponge_bob

There are no more projects on the A3 (shortly to become A2). The last one was a tunnel near Cosenza and then the Prime Minister announced the road was 'finished' this month with a straight face. 

At least 20% of the A3 in Calabria is still the same shite heap with no hard shoulders and crap bridges and tunnels that it always was. It should be a superstrada not a motorway after the motorway runs out somewhere north of Cosenza seeing as the government has no intention of upgrading the rest of it to Reggio any more.


----------



## brick84

*A18 Rosolini-Modica*

first stretch from Rosolini to Ispica/Pozzallo in first quater 2017.


----------



## MichiH

brick84 said:


> *A18 Rosolini-Modica*
> 
> first stretch from Rosolini to Ispica/Pozzallo in first quater 2017.


I guess you wanna say that the first section will be opened for traffic in first quarter 2017?


----------



## brick84

^^
Yes, of course.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

MichiH said:


> A question to my Italian friends
> Are all expected 2016 openings delayed to 2017 or have I missed any opening?
> Are all expected 2017 openings still on schedule?


About SPV, due to various messes with managements and fundind, the 2016 opening sections were delayed/postponed to early 2017, and early opening section delayed to mid-2017, the other, for the moment, continued to maintain the same date...


----------



## brick84

*A2 Salerno-Reggio Calabria*

next to Strait of Messina













http://www.stradeanas.it/


----------



## g.spinoza

Works for the direct connection A4-A35 near Brescia started yesterday.
They consist in the construction a new carriageway on the current A35-rac. All tunnels, viaducts and underpasses were already built considering a possible future doubling, so they won't have to be demolished and rebuilt. They will also have to build a new toll barrier, and connection ramps. Cost is 50 M€.

http://www.giornaledibrescia.it/bre...no-brebemi-via-al-raccordo-con-l-a4-1.3143308


----------



## g.spinoza

Do you recall that overpass that collapsed, few weeks ago, over SS 36 when an overload truck passed on it? 
If you don't, here's the video:





It seems that the mistake generating this disaster was metrologic in nature. In fact, this document authorized the truck for a load of 108 quintals (which is a unit encompassing 100 kg):

















The truck, however, weighed 108 tons... that is, 10 times more.


----------



## keber

So who is guilty if SI units are not used in official documents?


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> So who is guilty if SI units are not used in official documents?


I'm not sure, I think the matter is complex.
For instance, the Italian Agency of Revenue, for agricultural land area, officially uses "ara" which is equal to 100 m^2, but not an SI unit.


----------



## italystf

keber said:


> So who is guilty if SI units are not used in official documents?


There's no law forcing to use SI units. One must know the difference between quintal and ton, they're metric multiples of the kg, even schoolchildren know that.

Anyway, this reminds me of this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider


----------



## keber

italystf said:


> There's no law forcing to use SI units. One must know the difference between quintal and ton, they're metric multiples of the kg, even schoolchildren know that.


Quintal in most languages is very arhaic form of measurement and is not used in everyday use anymore. Also its mass varies acros different countries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintal


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> There's no law forcing to use SI units. One must know the difference between quintal and ton, they're metric multiples of the kg, even schoolchildren know that.
> 
> Anyway, this reminds me of this:
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider


Or this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter#Cause_of_failure



keber said:


> Quintal in most languages is very arhaic form of measurement and is not used in everyday use anymore. Also its mass varies acros different countries:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintal


In Italy "quintale" is unambiguous. I wonder if they have also documents in English for foreign trucks and drivers...


----------



## sotonsi

Tonnes aren't SI either - hence why Canada writes it out as 3.500kg (Mg are never going to happen are they?)

Arguably one of the big flaws of SI is the lack of prefixes for 10^1, 10^2, 10^4, 10^5. Here we had 100kg being a useful measure - perfectly metric and all that - one can call it a hecto-kilogram and be right and wish that the base unit for weight was called something else like 'bob'. Hectobobs are perfectly fine and dandy, when you consider French wine is sold by the centilitre, land across the world is measured in the hectare (an are being 100m^2 and having a silly name), etc.

Stuff like that space mission where one team worked in inches and the other centimetres and both produced realistic results is problematic as they produced realistic results. Oh, and they didn't write the units down, confusing everyone. 108 tons is clearly not realistic for a truck that is only cleared for a tenth of that and the units are given on the document. That the truck has been running for 20 years without anyone making that mistake shows that the issue is not the use of quintals, but idiots overloading a truck.


----------



## Attus

Well, for a 16 metres 4 or 5 aixle semi-truck 10 tons are very, very few. The trailer itself may have a weight near to that, i.e. 10.8 tons are realistic as the weight of the complete vehicle unloaded. Permitted total weight (loaded) of such trucks are usually between 24-42 tons. 
In EU the maximal permitted weight is 11.5 tons per axle (i.e. axle load). (The regulations are a little bit more complicated, but no need for more detailed explanations here.)
I speak basic Italian, I understand every words but I'm not sure what peso complessivo in vehicle certifications exactly mean. But meaning the maximal permitted loaded weight sounds very unrealistic (or it is the certification of another truck...)

On the other side, 108 tons means an extreme overloading any way. It means a loading of 90-100 tons on that trailer. What did that truck transport? Lead? 
Axle load of rear axles must have been multiple times more than permitted. If it is true and the truck was really over one hundred tons, it's a miracle (however a very unlucky one in this case) that the trailer did not collapse. It was loaded at least three times above the weight the construction was designed for.

I'm quite sure every certificated truck drivers know that such a truck may never have a complete weight above 46 tons. Such a misunderstanding is pretty unbelievable. You're a meterologist, if someone tells you the estimated temperature in some unknown town in Africa for tomorrow is 90 degrees, you will surely understand it may not be Celsius. 

And, sorry, but that _exactly_ ten times overloading, i.e. 108 tons instead of 10.8 tons sounds like a hoax. I would rather believe it if it was not so precisely 1q => 1t.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ The truck transported steel coils.

I guess the misunderstanding was possible:
" What do you transport?"
"Steel coils"
"How much is the weight"?
"108" (meaning tons)
"Ok" (writes down 108 in the blank space, intended for quintals)


----------



## pccvspw999

Since when it's necessary to have an authorization for a truck weighing 10,8 tons?
Who worte this document intended to authorize 108 ton and didn't worte the missing "0".
It's not that mistake which caused the accident!


italystf said:


> There's no law forcing to use SI units. One must know the difference between quintal and ton, they're metric multiples of the kg, even schoolchildren know that.


Of course there is, at least in Italy: the presidential decree no.802/1982 which introduced in Italy the SI as compulsory metrologic system.
Any misue or abuse is fined from €258,23 up to €774,69. For every single case! Can become an huge amount.
But who cares?


----------



## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> Since when it's necessary to have an authorization for a truck weighing 10,8 tons?
> Who worte this document intended to authorize 108 ton and didn't worte the missing "0".
> It's not that mistake which caused the accident!
> 
> Of course there is, at least in Italy: the presidential decree no.802/1982 which introduced in Italy the SI as compulsory metrologic system.
> Any misue or abuse is fined from €258,23 up to €774,69. For every single case! Can become an huge amount.
> But who cares?


I'm not sure it's that automatic.
Litre is not an SI unit, but it's widely used. Neither is Celsius degree: kelvin is the only SI unit for temperature.
I guess there are some tolerated units. I think quintal was completely abolished, though.


----------



## pccvspw999

Of course there are tollarated historic units "not SI", from SI itself, not only by the law.
l, t, min, h, d, bar, eV, for example.
"quintali" isn't one of them.

Who issued that form, authorized it's use in official matters, and who used it, shall be fined. But it isn't that the cause of the accident.

Eventually it can be a hint to find the proper cause: maybe someone calculated the resistance with the wrong factors. If there was a calculation involved, but I'd be very surprised if.


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## ChrisZwolle

I think the truck driver is at fault here too. An experienced truck driver can notice the difference of a few tons in weight, this truck was overloaded by almost 3 times the usual weight. 

It's not clear to me if the entire truck weighed 108 tons, or it was loaded with 108 tons (plus the truck's unladen weight). In case of the latter, the load would've been 4 times as much as a regular full load, a typical truckload is some 24-28 tons, combined with 12-16 tons unladen weight, that is a 40 ton gross vehicle weight.


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## pccvspw999

The complete truck weighed 108t.
That's why he needed an authorization: it was an exceeding load. And the driver knew it.
The only mistake the driver may have done was not to use the bridge in it's middle and with no other traffic from the other direction. I'm not sure he had to do so by specific advise within the procedure of authorization, but it's recomended. And I'm not sure if it would have lasted to prevent the collapse


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## ChrisZwolle

This single 108 ton truck was heavier than if there would be two regular 40 ton trucks stopped on the bridge. 

The bridge was evidently not designed for such a load. This is also a problem in China, they transport coal in trucks that are too large for them, resulting is severe overloading (100 tons is not uncommon there either). Small bridges are not designed for that, and collapse from time to time in China as well.


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## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> I guess the misunderstanding was possible


OK, I see what you mean. However I think no driver or transport organizer would officially declare a hundred tons for a normal semi-truck.


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## italystf

Attus said:


> OK, I see what you mean. However I think no driver or transport organizer would officially declare a hundred tons for a normal semi-truck.


It was a six-axle truck.


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## pccvspw999

ChrisZwolle said:


> This single 108 ton truck was heavier than if there would be two regular 40 ton trucks stopped on the bridge.
> 
> The bridge was evidently not designed for such a load. This is also a problem in China, they transport coal in trucks that are too large for them, resulting is severe overloading (100 tons is not uncommon there either). Small bridges are not designed for that, and collapse from time to time in China as well.



The bridge was able to withstand that load, but it was completely worn out due to lack of maintainance over years and years.
Every bridge is designed with a triple safety factor, and under strict rules You may use it to overcome normal usage. This affects the bridge, of course, though it shall be maintained more promptly.
In this case, not only maintainance was below any standard, probably no one was really aware how often those over sized loads stressed that bridge.
Least shouldn't be a problem if the structure is observed with a precise schedule: You can verify with stress tests if the deformations stay within specs, and the bearings must be changed when deformed, and irons protected against rust and not exposed to air.

The bridge did this job again and again and again, because in that area were several steelworks and steel-users, until it decided to quit service!


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## ChrisZwolle

16 people were killed in a bus crash on A4 near Verona-Est. It was a Hungarian bus with high school students back from a trip in France.


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## Luki_SL

^^What was the reason of that tragic accident? Malfunction of the vehicle ?


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## italystf

Luki_SL said:


> ^^What was the reason of that tragic accident? Malfunction of the vehicle ?


The bus crashed against a concrete pillar of a bridge and caught fire. hno:

The article doesn't say anything about the condition of the bridge after the accident. Of course, with 16 deaths and 39 injures, the condition of a concrete structure, doesn't seem the biggest priority from a journalistic point of view, but an unstable bridge over a busy motorway like A4 can potentially kill or injure other people. Hopefully engineers will check everything.


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## Corvinus

Luki_SL said:


> ^^What was the reason of that tragic accident? Malfunction of the vehicle ?


Until now, no definitive cause has been reported in Hungarian news sources. Two possible causes have been brought up several times: driver fatigue, or failure of one of the wheels. According to ANSA, the drivers have changed about one hour before the crash, but this was not confirmed by the head of Verona traffic police. The only fact he could ascertain is that the bus has already hit the guard rails dozens of meters before the impact into the bridge pillar.

Hungarian police investigators and medical personnel are heading to the crash site to assist local authorities and prepare repatriation of the bus passengers. Numerous Hungarians living in the area are offering logistical assistance to relatives of the victims.


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## ChrisZwolle

International bus drivers are often put under huge pressure to drive very long distances. Last year a story surfaced on the Dutch news that a bus driver drove with his own car from the Netherlands to Bordeaux, and then drove a bus from Bordeaux to Portugal, as if it was a fresh start, while in fact he was already some 11 hours behind the wheel when starting his official leg of the journey to Portugal. Later reports found out this was quite a common occurrence in the international bus business.


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## Attus




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## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> International bus drivers are often put under huge pressure to drive very long distances. Last year a story surfaced on the Dutch news that a bus driver drove with his own car from the Netherlands to Bordeaux, and then drove a bus from Bordeaux to Portugal, as if it was a fresh start, while in fact he was already some 11 hours behind the wheel when starting his official leg of the journey to Portugal. Later reports found out this was quite a common occurrence in the international bus business.


Something like that I had in my high school trip to Italy. The bus driver drove to near Aix-en-Provence and then (after some rest) relayed another bus driver who drove the bus I was on up to that point. The other bus driver then returned to Spain. Not to mention all mileage of Italian _autostrade_ I have clinched was done aboard that bus (The same was true for French _autoroutes_ until I went to Bordeaux).


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## Luki_SL

What a new road is built north of Vicenza ? It`s signed as  SP111. 
Is it future motorway or expressway (superstrada) ?


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## g.spinoza

Luki_SL said:


> What a new road is built north of Piacenza ? It`s signed as  SP111.
> Is it future motorway or expressway (superstrada) ?


It's Vicenza, not Piacenza.

It is the Superstrada Pedemontana Veneta, the first tolled expressway in Italy.


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## Luki_SL

^^Will it be signed as SP111 ?


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## Autobahn-mann

^^ Nope. SP 111 is the actual name of the actual road that will be included. The future sign will be SPV [_Venetian Foothill Highway/Expressway_]


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## italystf

Luki_SL said:


> ^^Will it be signed as SP111 ?


No, this is the number of the old road. It's not already known how will be signed the new expressway.








It's 95km long and should be completed by 2020.


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## italystf

Autobahn-mann said:


> ^^ Nope. SP 111 is the actual name of the actual road that will be included. The future sign will be SPV [_Venetian Foothill Highway/Expressway_]


Are you sure that SPV is official?


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## g.spinoza

^^ No official communication yet.


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## Luki_SL

When this road will be finished, it`ll be great alternative to detour A4 Venezia - Vicenza in rush hours / holidays


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## Autobahn-mann

italystf said:


> Are you sure that SPV is official?





g.spinoza said:


> ^^ No official communication yet.


Not, very sure, as said, no official communication.
But, were posted a photo on italian thread were there was a road sign with SPV, on italian motorways style... it's an acronym usually used.

I'll find that photo!


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## Autobahn-mann

^^ I've found it!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=123140176&postcount=375


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## Solčavec

Attus said:


>


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## g.spinoza

Autobahn-mann said:


> ^^ I've found it!
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=123140176&postcount=375


Typical Italian confusion. Green sign for a road that IS NOT A MOTORWAY, a brand new acronym that doesn't fit with the others... I hate all this...


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## Autobahn-mann

^^ The fact is also that sign will be later removed!

And also the term "superstrada" that it the most far from a tecnical term!


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## g.spinoza

^^ Why is that?


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## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> Do you recall that overpass that collapsed, few weeks ago, over SS 36 when an overload truck passed on it?
> If you don't, here's the video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that the mistake generating this disaster was metrologic in nature. In fact, this document authorized the truck for a load of 108 quintals (which is a unit encompassing 100 kg):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The truck, however, weighed 108 tons... that is, 10 times more.


Really?

Holy crap, I can't believe that icard:


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## SeanT

They do not know yet. The drivers were not tired according to survivals and it seemed that the bus was ok.


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## OulaL

Moved from Lithuania-thread.



hammersklavier said:


> Feel free to answer this on the Italian thread, of course, but that whole stretch on the A6 between Savona and Mollere is kinda crazy, where the two carriageways have what appears to be little more than a passing relationship with one another for many miles. How did that come to be?


One carriage road, the one with shorter bridges and shorter tunnels, was built first. It was then a 1+1. Later, and with construction technology having been advanced, the another carriage road was built. That time technology allowed longer bridges and longer tunnels, and it came to be profitable to build it in a different alignment altogether.


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## g.spinoza

OulaL said:


> Moved from Lithuania-thread.
> 
> 
> 
> One carriage road, the one with shorter bridges and shorter tunnels, was built first. It was then a 1+1. Later, and with construction technology having been advanced, the another carriage road was built. That time technology allowed longer bridges and longer tunnels, and it came to be profitable to build it in a different alignment altogether.


Not exactly. The first carriageway was three-laned but two-way. Each direction had its own lane and the central lane was for overtaking. Needless to say, this was extremely dangerous and many grave accidents occurred during the years, so much that judges closed down the most dangerous stretch. It reopened only when the central lane was deleted (only by painting over it, so it wasn't really effective). During the 90s the second carriageway was built: there wasn't space near the old one, so a different route was chosen, more direct. The older carriageway was dedicated northbound southbound, the new one runs southbound northbound.


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## Eddard Stark

Also A7 has a similar story, all though the old southbound stretch was built as a camion-dedicated strada statale in the 30' and then converted in motorway. It is horrendous and in my opinion deserves an urgent upgrade, not even planned


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## Rebasepoiss

g.spinoza said:


> The older carriageway was dedicated northbound, the new one runs southbound.


It doesn't sem to be the case for the whole road, though. In this section the more winding one with the loop is southbound rather than northbound.


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## g.spinoza

Rebasepoiss said:


> It doesn't sem to be the case for the whole road, though. In this section the more winding one with the loop is southbound rather than northbound.


My mistake, the older one is southbound, with the helix-like curve near Savona.


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## OulaL

g.spinoza said:


> My mistake, the older one is southbound, with the helix-like curve near Savona.


That makes sense: in the Millesimo junction, even though it only serves southbound direction (the other one involving "u-turns" relatively far from the actual junction) old ramps for northbound direction can still be clearly seen.

https://www.google.fi/maps/@44.3641739,8.2005872,277m/data=!3m1!1e3


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## italystf

Just a little mess :nuts:
https://www.google.fi/maps/@44.2884597,8.4426258,17.02z


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## italystf

OulaL said:


> That makes sense: in the Millesimo junction, even though it only serves southbound direction (the other one involving "u-turns" relatively far from the actual junction) old ramps for northbound direction can still be clearly seen.
> 
> https://www.google.fi/maps/@44.3641739,8.2005872,277m/data=!3m1!1e3


Those ramps are unused for more than 20 years. I hate when those abandoned pieces of infrastructure are just left there, instead of being demolished and the area given back to nature.


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## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Just a little mess :nuts:
> https://www.google.fi/maps/@44.2884597,8.4426258,17.02z


The A6-A10 junction was the last thing to be completed, well into the 2000s.


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## OulaL

italystf said:


> Just a little mess :nuts:
> https://www.google.fi/maps/@44.2884597,8.4426258,17.02z


Italian junctions often become a mess, especially when they involve both tolled and free motorways...


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## italystf

OulaL said:


> Italian junctions often become a mess, especially when they involve both tolled and free motorways...


In some places like this one orography and urbanization also play their role.


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## Rebasepoiss

g.spinoza said:


> My mistake, the older one is southbound, with the helix-like curve near Savona.


Actually, my point was that it looks like it changes depending on the section of the route. In the southern part (that I showed) it is indeed the southbound direction that's on the old route. However, if you look further north it's the northbound direction that's on the old route. I believe the switchover point is here where the southbound direction goes from the new road to the old one.



italystf said:


> Those ramps are unused for more than 20 years. I hate when those abandoned pieces of infrastructure are just left there, instead of being demolished and the area given back to nature.


Looks like the Naples area has lots of these abandoned or unfinished ramps and interchanges: 1;2;3;4;5


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## g.spinoza

^^ It's possible but I'm not sure. I didn't find any mention of it anywhere; besides, if you look at streetview you can see in that point the two carriageways are on a viaduct, and on slightly different elevations.

https://www.google.fi/maps/@44.3593...4!1s6410STXEZLjCsRL5DzUtPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Then again, take a look at the weird angle on that expansion joint... :dunno:


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## OulaL

https://www.google.fi/maps/@44.3639...4!1s4EDY3xDFTol_6NNJ9YbI1w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

This is a disused junction on the northbound side. Looks pretty old, given the stoned edge beside the exit ramp...


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## Luki_SL

^^ There is old toll both  for this disused junction


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## Proof Sheet

italystf said:


> Just a little mess :nuts:
> https://www.google.fi/maps/@44.2884597,8.4426258,17.02z


I drove this stretch of road SB in late December for the 1st time. Incredible feats of road engineering especially with the tunnel that did 360' and dropped in elevation. At times the other direction of traffic was a few km away.

I ended up driving Turin/Savona when I meant to cut SW to Imperia on non autostrada but we never saw the sign for Imperia on SS28. It was quite windy on that road especially as we approached Savona and then WB towards Monaco/Nice etc.


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## hammersklavier

OulaL said:


> https://www.google.fi/maps/@44.3639...4!1s4EDY3xDFTol_6NNJ9YbI1w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> This is a disused junction on the northbound side. Looks pretty old, given the stoned edge beside the exit ramp...





Luki_SL said:


> ^^ There is old toll both  for this disused junction


That is such a cool find. I wonder why the old interchange was just abandoned?


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## Luki_SL

^^I think it was abandoned after the second carriageway was built


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## OulaL

Luki_SL said:


> ^^I think it was abandoned after the second carriageway was built


Likely so, but that doesn't answer the question "why".

That junction used to serve the village of Montezemolo, which is now signposted from the previous junction (the one from which this discussion began in the first place). Probably the AADTs weren't big enough to justify two junctions so close to each other.


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## JakeOnBreak

Does someone know if restaurant has been built and opened yet on A1 Variante di Valico northbound (new highway between Firenze and Bologna). I believe rest area is called Badia Nuova est https://goo.gl/maps/7VHEELDUNbm
I can't find any info on the internet.


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## g.spinoza

JakeOnBreak said:


> Does someone know if restaurant has been built and opened yet on A1 Variante di Valico northbound (new highway between Firenze and Bologna). I believe rest area is called Badia Nuova est https://goo.gl/maps/7VHEELDUNbm
> I can't find any info on the internet.


Not yet, but in fact there are no news on the net about inauguration date...


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## Suburbanist

I am a bit ambivalent about the closed-system design of most of Italian _autostrade._

Because toll plazas, due to geography, are often difficult to place, not every municipality can get "their" own exit, and traffic flows better to the extent that short-distance ( <10km) traffic is often forced into local roads instead. Indirectly, this provides an incentive for some bypasses, ring road and/or city tunnels to be built. 

However, these toll plazas take an enormous amount of space, and are very expensive to build. 

In principle, I am in favor of free-flow tolling, keeping the closed nature of the system intact though. In practice, I have some fears that might lead to towns asking for more exits (once toll plaza removal makes it much easier to build new exists with just 4 ramps tight near the main ROW...), and, more worrying, an expansion of the trend of local governments asking for special concession and privileges for their own citizens to travel small distances on highway without paying tolls or paying heavily discounted tolls...


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## g.spinoza

I don't get it.

It is a good thing that local traffic is forced on local roads. That's what they're for.
And why should municipalities ask for new exits? I mean, they can, but often they're not gonna get them.

The only thing I can think of that can save space is bi-directional rest areas, like I saw in Austria.


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## ChrisZwolle

It's a fine balance, and depends on many factors like the local road system. Too few exits: too much traffic on a local road network (passing through several villages / towns to reach a destination), too many exits: overburdened motorway with a lot of merging. 

It is sometimes complained that the Netherlands has too many exits so a lot of short-distance traffic uses the motorway. I don't quite agree with that as our motorway system that was once intercity, is now mainly used similar to a large metropolitan area. In addition, there is not much political will to upgrade the secondary road system, so most money flows to motorway upgrades. 

In case of Italy, the secondary road system is not as effective to avoid tolls. It takes a lot of more time to travel longer distances on SS / SP / SR roads, compared to Spain or France. For example between Milan and Bologna, Google Maps suggests that taking non-toll roads requires some 2 hours of additional travel time compared to A1.


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> It is a good thing that local traffic is forced on local roads. That's what they're for.
> And why should municipalities ask for new exits? I mean, they can, but often they're not gonna get them.
> 
> The only thing I can think of that can save space is bi-directional rest areas, like I saw in Austria.


I agree with you that local traffic better stay on local roads!

I am also in favor of free-flow tolls to get rid of toll plazas, not only for space they take, but their cost (which ultimately translate into higher tolls overall).

My point is that I am afraid removing toll plazas would make it easier to build more exits, which is not necessarily a good thing (as you said).


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## keber

g.spinoza said:


> I don't get it.
> The only thing I can think of that can save space is bi-directional rest areas, like I saw in Austria.


I can think of a number of complicated exits and even interchanges being much simplified, even on flatland, like A4-A55 connection in Torino.


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## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> In case of Italy, the secondary road system is not as effective to avoid tolls. It takes a lot of more time to travel longer distances on SS / SP / SR roads, compared to Spain or France. For example between Milan and Bologna, Google Maps suggests that taking non-toll roads requires some 2 hours of additional travel time compared to A1.


Toll avoidance is Italy is more easily achieved in some long-distance routes for which non-tolled alternatives exists, such as SS3bis, SS17 or SS16 in Puglia (which is the closest thing to a competing parallel highway, Spanish-style, Italy has).


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## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> Toll avoidance is Italy is more easily achieved in some long-distance routes for which non-tolled alternatives exists, such as SS3bis, SS17 or SS16 in Puglia (which is the closest thing to a competing parallel highway, Spanish-style, Italy has).


Or FI-PI-LI instead of A11. Or Florence-Rome via Siena, Grosseto and Civitavecchia.


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## ChrisZwolle

Trieste - Torino is 9-10 hours of non-stop driving if you want to avoid tolls :nuts:


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## OulaL

What takes up space is not just the toll plaza itself; it is also the philosophy that every single vehicle must pass under the same roof, regardless their direction. This just adds useless spaghetti, especially when we still want to keep it grade separated. Take Bolzano South for example: there is a tolled motorway, a free motorway and several connections to city streets, and all of them have grade separated ramps between each other, and all traffic relevant to the toll plaza passes under a single roof.

Obviously this makes it easier for the staff to change their position depending on which direction is more congested, but then again, the whole point of the road system is to serve the motorists.

What are maybe the most ridiculous thing are situations, in which the motorist both enters and exits the toll motorway in the same place: Ventimiglia and Sterzing, maybe some others I don't remember. Take a ticket, drive around a loop, give the ticket away and pay; instead of having a single, separated ramp with a single direct payment (no ticket needed, because the amount would be obvious).


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## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> I agree with you that local traffic better stay on local roads!
> 
> I am also in favor of free-flow tolls to get rid of toll plazas, not only for space they take, but their cost (which ultimately translate into higher tolls overall).
> 
> My point is that I am afraid removing toll plazas would make it easier to build more exits, which is not necessarily a good thing (as you said).


I just realized that you were talking about toll plazas, but I was thinking about rest areas... Sorry about the confusion


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## italystf

OulaL said:


> What takes up space is not just the toll plaza itself; it is also the philosophy that every single vehicle must pass under the same roof, regardless their direction. This just adds useless spaghetti, especially when we still want to keep it grade separated. Take Bolzano South for example: there is a tolled motorway, a free motorway and several connections to city streets, and all of them have grade separated ramps between each other, and all traffic relevant to the toll plaza passes under a single roof.
> 
> Obviously this makes it easier for the staff to change their position depending on which direction is more congested, but then again, the whole point of the road system is to serve the motorists.
> 
> What are maybe the most ridiculous thing are situations, in which the motorist both enters and exits the toll motorway in the same place: Ventimiglia and Sterzing, maybe some others I don't remember. Take a ticket, drive around a loop, give the ticket away and pay; instead of having a single, separated ramp with a single direct payment (no ticket needed, because the amount would be obvious).


Some new tolled motorways like A4 Dolo-Quarto d'Altino (Passante di Mestre) or A31 Vicenza-Badia Polesine (Valdastico Sud) have roundabout interchanges (with the motorway passing above the roundabout) and 4 small toll barriers at each ramp. Minimal waste of space.

As for Ventimiglia and Vipiteno/Sterzing: it was done on purpose, to charge drivers travelling from France to Ventimiglia (and vice-versa) and from Austria to Vipiteno/Sterzing (and vice-versa).


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## keber

Italy is a prime candidate for free-flow tolling. Removal of toll plazas and simplifying a large number of strange interchanges would reduce travel times. There is a slight problem - it appears that abandoned structures and roads seem very rarely removed and land under them recultivated.


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## Eddard Stark

We don't want slovenians to use our motorways for free!


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## Eddard Stark

Anyways nowadays it is not tre anymore. All abandoned stretches of A3 have been or will be renaturalised. When you have been building motorways from the early 50' you have some uneven behaviours over the decades


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## italystf

*New junction of Firenzuola*

I forgot to post it earlier, but on January 30th, it opened the new junction of Firenzuola, on A1var Bologna-Florence.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/44.0712/11.2433


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## OulaL

Eddard Stark said:


> We don't want slovenians to use our motorways for free!


... "free flow" does not mean "free of charge".


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## narkelion

It does for foreigners that can easily drive on them without paying. 

Autostrade will never start an international dispute to have such low amounts of money.


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## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> So they were doing repair works... that might be an important clue.


Apparently, they were pushing up the central span using hydraulic jacks, which failed... 
I am surprised they can do these kinds of work without closing down the motorway...


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## pccvspw999

The bridge was in maintenance, closed for trafic. I guess it was a fault during some work operation.
The steel beam seems to be riveted, not welded or assembled with screw bolts. Maybe this can give a hint how old it was. Nowadays welding or screwing are mostly used, riveting is outdated for such constructions.

It's a different case than on SS35 of last october, but with the same effect, tragically.


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## italystf

Live broadcasting from the disaster site. They're working non-stop to remove the ruins of the bridge and reopen the motorway as soon as possible.
https://www.facebook.com/Repubblica/videos/10155224329176151/


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## GENIUS LOCI

g.spinoza said:


> Apparently, they were pushing up the central span using hydraulic jacks, which failed...
> I am surprised they can do these kinds of work without closing down the motorway...


Simply unbelieveble they made this work without closing the motorway, at least in critical operations.
Normally they carry out such dangerous works during the night and closing the street below


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## pccvspw999

^^ So far I've understood, temporary trestles were build to keep the platform in place, probably because they have to rebuild the abutments on both sides. These trestles collapsed, and the platform felt down.


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## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

new junction of Modica - update works:










free image hosting


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## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

Here's the costruction yard of "Salvia" viaduct, 
next to Ispica-Pozzallo (RG)






















hosting immagini


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## mistikos

*SS534 "di Cammarata e degli Stombi"*

Situation of the doubling from km 7 to km 14:



mistikos said:


> *Foto scattate lungo la SS534 e complanare correlata:*
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> Raddoppio della SS534 fino al km 14
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> Deviazione sulla SS534 al termine della complanare e dei lavori
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> Ritorno
> Deviazione al km 14 sulla complanare


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## mistikos

*SS106 Jonica from Sibari to Trebisacce:*



mistikos said:


> *SS106, la situazione:*
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> Andata
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> Lavori tra Cassano e Villapiana visti dalla SP253
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> Svincolo di Villapiana e rientro in SS106
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> Tratto riasfaltato nei pressi di Villapiana Lido
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> Lavori sulla corsia Nord tra Villapiana e Cassano
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> In arrivo anche il video della 534


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## MichiH

mistikos said:


> *SS534 "di Cammarata e degli Stombi"*
> 
> Situation of the doubling from km 7 to km 14:


I thought 14km are u/c and expected to be opened in March 2017. Will 7km - which are not on the pics - be opened now or is the segment on the pics even more advanced than the remaining 7km? Is there any updated estimated opening date for the section?


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## mistikos

All 14 km won't open during this easter... They're so late!


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## mistikos

*SS534, from km 7 to km 14:*


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## Suburbanist

@mistikos: a small tip - use the focus function of your camera to get rid of most of car elements in road pics


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## mistikos

I'll try. 

On Saturday 8th April I'll travel from Cosenza to Bari: I'm going on a school trip to Greece for a week!

PS I used my Gopro Hero 4 Silver for the video


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## brick84

*SS 729 - Sassari-Olbia, Sardinia*






felis said:


> *Strade & Autostrade -*  La nuova Sassari-Olbia: un collegamento strategico e sicuro


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## italystf

This viaduct carrying SP71 road over A23 motorway near Palmanova was damaged by an oversize transport in November 2015 but it was never repaired because of burocratic issues. In March 2016 it was closed to heavy traffic. It should finally be repaired this spring.









http://messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it/udine/cronaca/2017/03/21/news/autostrada-1.15066616?ref=fbfmv

It's a shame that such dangerous situations are treated with such easygoing approaches (like delaying damaged bridges recontructions for years). Hopefully disasters of Lecco and Ancona will teach something.


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## GENIUS LOCI

New *Genova* West bypass (named _Gronda di Ponente_)













































































































http://www.regione.liguria.it/argom...porti-e-infrastrutture/autostrade/gronda.html


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## g.spinoza

Those are cool renderings, but I'm not sure about its effective advancement stage, or whether it will be built at all.

(and the large toll booth is a sight I hope I would never see again so deep in the new millennium...)


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## hofburg

crazy!  are there often traffic jams?


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## Luki_SL

^^In summer there are only traffic jams


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## Suburbanist

hofburg said:


> crazy!  are there often traffic jams?


Yes. Not only traffic is heavy, but they expanded the original 2-lane highway to a cramped 3-lane without shoulder carriageway. It is not possible to further widen the existing highway.

As a result, even when traffic is not that high, a breakdown can wreck havoc on automobility in that axis. There are no alternative highways either.


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## brick84

*S.S. 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta, Sicily*

_the first Lot from Agrigento to Canicattì (31 km) opened to traffic _


:banana:

day before:







































































































































































































source: http://www.agrigentonotizie.it/foto/...-giorno-prima/


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## brick84

^^

Official ANAS video:









by _Mauro Indelicato_:


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## Insulateshipper

Lot of work ongoing or completed last 5 years. With high quality project. GO ITALY!!


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## g.spinoza

The appeal against the tender awarded for the construction of motorway Rome-Latina has been dismissed by the TAR court of Latium, so construction can finally begin.

http://www.latinacorriere.it/2017/0...al-tar-moscardelli-finalmente-dallisolamento/


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## italystf

^^ They say that it will be 3+3 between Rome and Aprilia and 2+2 plus local express lanes between Aprilia and Latina.


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## g.spinoza

According to Diego Peli, council member of Province Brescia, next week ANAS and Salini consortium will sign the contract for building the Valtrompia motorway, north of Brescia. Construction is expected to begin next June.

It is the first lot, 6 km between the towns of Concesio and Sarezzo, which are part of a very populated industrial zone at the bottom of the narrow Valle Trompia. 
No detailed plans are on the internet, only a very old project by Tecnis SpA which is not part of the project now.


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## Ryme Intrinseca

italystf said:


> ^^ They say that it will be 3+3 between Rome and Aprilia and 2+2 plus local express lanes between Aprilia and Latina.


Aprilia to Latina mostly has frontage roads already, though sometimes they disappear, and at other times they are grade separated themselves (like this) making them closer to true C/D lanes. 

The improvement could be anything from simply making the frontage roads on this section continuous, to converting them to a fully grade separated C/D arrangement. The latter may, however, be tricky given the regular property frontages.


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## g.spinoza

10 km of A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria, between Rosarno and Mileto, have been sequestered by the judge because, during reconstruction, a whole lot of hydro-geological issues have been neglected: the stretch is still open for traffic, though.
9 people involved have been arrested, too.


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## mistikos

^^It happened a year ago! :bash:


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## g.spinoza

mistikos said:


> ^^It happened a year ago! :bash:


Yes, news is the arrest of nine people.


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## Suburbanist

@mistikos, when are you going to update your avatar  ?


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## mistikos

I don't want to upgrade my avatar, I'm faithful to A3, for me it will be always A3, not A2


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## italystf

Planned extension of A12 between Tarquinia and Grosseto has been cancelled. Instead, existing SS1 will be upgraded to expressway standards (that implies duplication of 2-laned sections and removal of all at-grade junctions and U-turns).
http://iltirreno.gelocal.it/grosset...la-messa-in-sicurezza-dell-aurelia-1.15170087


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## italystf

Works for 3rd lane on A4 Alvisopoli - Gonars (basically section between A28 and a23) are proceeding regularly. That 26-km section should be completed by 2020.
It will include a brand-new 1.5 km bridge over Tagliamento river; the current one will be demolished.

http://messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it/...ora-al-nuovo-ponte-sul-tagliamento-1.15180503

Preliminary works for the new Tagliamento bridge









































































Works for this bridge will be extremely impressive: a new 'temporary factory' (150 meters long, 20 wide, and 13 tall) is planned to be built _in situ_. Inside it, concrete pillars weighting 90 tons each will be constructed.

Bad news: section Latisana - San Giorgio di Nogaro (15 km) will be limited to 80 kph for 2-3 years.


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## Verso

Can't they widen it from Venice to Villesse at once instead of annoying drivers for a decade?


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## keber

Widening almost 100 km of motorway at once is logistically and financially usually impossible, often also not necessary from capacity point of view. Europe is not China where they often close whole motorway for a time and build new wider motorway on the same place.


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## italystf

Closing A4 (even half profile) would be unfeasible for obvious reasons (save for brief night closures to collocate overpasses). During widening, it will probably remain open with 4 narrow lanes and no hard shoulders, like they did on the Quarto d'Altino - San Donà di Piave section.
In Italy now motorway constructions and widenings, for financial and legislative reasons, are usually split in smaller lots, that increases a lot construction times. It hasn't always been the case, for example around 300 km of A14 opened to traffic at once in the early 1970s.


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## g.spinoza

A bridge of the tangenziale of Fossano, northwest Italy near Turin, just collapsed for unkown causes. A car driven by two Carabinieri has been crushed, but the troopers are unharmed.









http://torino.repubblica.it/cronaca...chiacciata_un_auto_dei_carabinieri-163288432/


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## Eddard Stark

Enough. A review of all Italian bridges is overdue


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## ChrisZwolle

Speaking of Olbia, I was zooming in on that in Google Earth, it turns out to have new imagery from 11 March 2017. It's the first good quality 2017 imagery I've seen in Europe this year.


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## mistikos

*Some videos taken by me during my school trip to Greece from 8th to 14th April:*

8th April
SS534 from km 7 to km Sibari





14th April
SS106 from Pisticci to Rocca Imperiale





SS106 from Villapiana Lido to Cassano allo Ionio





SS534 from km 14 to km 7


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## mistikos

*SS106 Jonica - Some photos between Sibari and Taranto taken by me during my school trip:*



mistikos said:


> *Foto dal sottoscritto scattate sulla SS106:*
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> Andata, 8 Aprile
> Rientro a Villapiana sulla 106
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> Ritorno, 14 Aprile
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## mistikos

*SS534 - From km 7 to km 14, some photos taken by me:*



mistikos said:


> *Foto della SS534 riguardanti i lavori:*
> 
> Andata, 8 Aprile
> Prima del cavalcavia
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> Cavalcavia varato
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> Dal cavalcavia fino a prima della fine della complanare
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> Fine deviazione con vista delle carreggiate già tracciate
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> Ritorno, 14 Aprile
> Deviazione sulla complanare con vista delle carreggiate già tracciate
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> Raddoppio in corso sui 7 km
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> In arrivo prossimamente 4 video...


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## brick84

*SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta
*
The completed lot (the first one) from Agrigento to Canicattì





(sponsored by "Le Vigne" shopping mall)


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## italystf

Video showing the scary conditions of Cannavino viaduct, on SS107 Crotone-Cosenza, Calabria
http://www.silenziefalsita.it/2016/11/05/ponte-a-rischio-crollo-ma-lanas-dice-di-no/


Fortunately, ANAS has recently started 'extraordinary renovation' works.
http://www.quotidianodelsud.it/cala...vori-manutenzione-viadotto-cannavino-traffico


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## italystf

A4 between Latisana and San Giorgio di Nogaro is now open with a narrow-lanes configuration and will remain so until around 2020. Speed is limited to 80 (70 for trucks) and it's enforced electronically.
Be prepared to hell hno:









http://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/vene...-lunghissima-coda-di-tir-1.15282968?ref=fbfnv


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## italystf

A trucker did reverse driving on RA13 motorway near Trieste, after he realized he took the wrong exit. He hit two cars injuring 5 people and ran away. hno::runaway:
http://www.triesteprima.it/cronaca/...ia-e-scappa-cinque-feriti-10-maggio-2017.html


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## Kvarner-1

italystf said:


> A trucker did reverse driving on RA13 motorway near Trieste, after he realized he took the wrong exit. He hit two cars injuring 5 people and ran away. hno::runaway:
> http://www.triesteprima.it/cronaca/...ia-e-scappa-cinque-feriti-10-maggio-2017.html


Traffic signalization on Ra13 is very bad. From Monfalcone to Trieste a small font, various colors (green, blue, white).
We from Istra and Fiume, from birth we are traveling Trieste and its surroundings, we know the roads well, even with eyes closed 
But every time when I drive trough RA13, I say RESPECT for every tourist who is driving on A4/RA13 and successfully find the road to Fiume/Rijeka.
At the exit of RA13 for Fiume, on the road sign there is only Basovizza-Padricciano and only if you accidentally notice behind the bush the inscription Fiume you know that it is the direction leading towards Fiume-Quarnero/Carnaro and further towards Dalmatia.
Road signs on this highway have to be changed.
On the RA13 should be placed normal highway signposts that will clearly highlight the directions for Fiume (HR), Pula (HR), Capodistria (SLO).


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## brick84

*A19 Palermo-Catania
*













by _*Giuseppe Cucchiara*_ https://www.facebook.com/giuseppe.cucchiara.184?hc_ref=SEARCH


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## ChrisZwolle

Last year I drove through Milano on A4. On a Friday early afternoon and Monday early morning (before 7 a.m.). Both times were we caught in a big kerfuffle to get through there. 

Entering Milano from the east, there is a toll station where 17 lanes have to merge into 3 lanes in only 150 meters. We were stuck in a V-shaped traffic jam for 15 minutes at that location, plus congestion on A4 itself.

When traveling east from A8, you've got 5 lanes merging into 3. We were also stuck there, between a very large volume of trucks. 

I don't see how A4 could effectively be expanded. It would require significant demolition of buildings alongside the motorway. A big bypass like A52 and Pedemontana is useful for regional traffic, but most traffic tends to stick to the shortest route as bypasses are too far out of the way or only viable for certain tangential trips. I've also haven't read much about any project to improve A4, there used to be plans for shoulder lanes. 

What about removing the exits on A4 and making it accessible to through traffic only? Thereby removing the toll stations on both sides of Milano. 

This would reduce Milano-bound traffic on A4 (which could be diverted to A52) and also reduce congestion at the toll plazas. 

With local upgrades, A52 could be come the entrance to Milano. For example, the Sesto San Giovanni exit could be closed and traffic moved to A52 and SS36. 










Similarly, the access to and from A4 at the SP35 interchange could be removed, by connecting it to A52 and further upgrading A52. 

Another option is to keep this interchange and build a toll station on it. There is some space and Italians are inventive to build interchanges in tight places. But it would keep more Milano traffic on A4.










On the west side of Milano, the problem is to install sufficient capacity toll plazas at exits to keep through traffic in a closed toll system. This is difficult to overcome with classic tolling with large toll plazas, but these problems would be solved with all-electronic tolling. Though technically feasible since the 1990s, there has been only haphazard implementation on European toll roads.

AET is currently mostly used in the periphery of Europe or on toll roads with almost exclusively domestic traffic. However there is some increasing usage on major routes, for example the Dartford Crossing in London and (almost) all motorways in Norway, Belarus and Portugal. The e-vignette is also enforced by ANPR in Hungary and Slovakia. Some low emission zones are also enforced similarly. So we're not entirely in the dark ages anymore when it comes to electronic tolling, but it has yet to break through to the mainstream in Italy, France, Spain, Croatia, Austria, etc.


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## italystf

^^ Milan section of A4 is likely the most, traffic-wise, problematic, stretch of motorway in Italy, after bottlenecks such Mestre bypass, A1 Bologna-Florence, and A3 have been solved in the past decade. Hopefully things will improve when A36 Pedemontana Lombarda will be completed (not earlier than 2022). Traffic between Venice and Switzerland won't go via Milan anymore, but Venice - Turin traffic will continue doing so (unless they go via A21, that is 30 km longer but faster during rush hour).

As for e-tolling, A36, A59 and A60 in Italy are already using it since 2015.

Since you mentioned Dartford Crossing in London: I sometimes read discussions in an Italian RV forum (I'm not a RV user, but I occasionally read it because they discuss about roads). Of course, when it comes to UK, the first concern is driving on the wrong side of the road. The second concern (according to the number of topics about the question) is probably 'how to pay for Dartford crossing'. :lol:


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## Suburbanist

It is not feasible to make A4 a through-route through Milano. They could have proposed that if they had built A52 as a full-fledged highway with 4 lanes per direction all the way between the fairgrounds and Sesto San Giovani. Since they've not done that, A4 is needed for intra-city traffic, especially to distribute truck traffic.

In any case, removal of intermediate exits would instantly make the small municipalities on the northern side of A4 request that A4 is tunneled or covered.


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## Ices77

Hello guys, in July I will make a holiday in Italy in Grado. Although there is comfortable motorway from my home practically to the resort, in Italy it is A23 from AT border down to the coast, I plan to drive some scenic roads in Alps. The additional time I want to spend on this detour drive is from two to five hours approximately. I am thinking of taking  SS 54 and SP 76, but it is not a condition.

I mean for sure I can take some information from Internet, however, road and motorway geeks here seems here to give good information. Thanks.


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## pascalwithvespa95

Ices77 said:


> Hello guys, in July I will make a holiday in Italy in Grado. Although there is comfortable motorway from my home practically to the resort, in Italy it is A23 from AT border down to the coast, I plan to drive some scenic roads in Alps. The additional time I want to spend on this detour drive is from two to five hours approximately. I am thinking of taking  SS 54 and SP 76, but it is not a condition.
> 
> I mean for sure I can take some information from Internet, however, road and motorway geeks here seems here to give good information. Thanks.


The SS13 is a beautiful road following the A23. From Gemona to Tarvisio are almost no villages you have to cross and only little traffic. Also it is free of toll.

The route through Slovenia (Bovec etc.) is also nice


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## Ices77

pascalwithvespa95 said:


> The SS13 is a beautiful road following the A23. From Gemona to Tarvisio are almost no villages you have to cross and only little traffic. Also it is free of toll.
> 
> The route through Slovenia (Bovec etc.) is also nice


Yeah, right, but I have been driving A23 several times, it´s northern part scenery is nice, if I would drive SS13, the scenery would be nice as well, but the same. 
SP76 seems to be narrow and curvy, combined option Italy - Slovenia seems to be good choice, SS54 in Italy, then Slovenian roads 203 and 102 and then again to Italian SS54 up to Udine.


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## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> About SS96, I read March 2017 as deadline.





brick84 said:


> *A18 Rosolini-Modica*
> 
> first stretch from Rosolini to Ispica/Pozzallo in first quater 2017.





MichiH said:


> *SS96 Barese:* north of Altamura – Mellitto 10km (December 2013 to March 2017) – ? – map
> *SS96 Barese:* Mellitto – Toritto 5.4km (March 2010 to March 2017) – ? – map
> *A18:* Rosolini – Ispica/Pozzallo 8km (June 2014 to Early 2017) – project – map


Any updated estimated opening date?


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## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> Any updated estimated opening date?


This article says that both lots of SS96 Barese should open by beginning of June.

About A18, I read there are problems in funding, so no clear date is given.


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## g.spinoza

Works for the second tube of Tenda/Tende tunnel, between Italy and France, have been stopped by Italian judges for at least 5 months. Wiretapping revealed workers talking about poles being secured to the ground "by spit and flour", works done "scrappily" (but the Italian expression is much stronger), "water spilling out everywhere, an incredibly messy thing".
17 people are under inquiry, including the director and the site manager.

http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/pre...erno-reggio-i-pali-sono-fissati-con-lo-sputo/


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## ssiguy2

I had the privilege of visiting your great nation earlier this year visiting the wonderful cities of Rome, Florence, and Venice. 

My cousin lived about 30 minutes north of Rome and we took the freeway that goes between Rome & Florencce. The road was good and well used but considering how it went by Rome I was surprised how light the traffic was. Even the Roman freeways themselves weren't that busy considering the size of Rome. Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver would kill to have such light traffic and free flowing freeways thru their cities. The traffic on Canadian cities near our big cities can be horrific and I was pleasantly surprised how well things moved and how light the traffic was.


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## italystf

Verso said:


> Can someone please remind me of the timetable for widening of the A4 between Venice and Villesse? When are certain sections planned to be finished? Thanks.


Alvisopoli - Gonars should be completed by 2020.
In other sections, works haven't started yet. Everything should be completed around 2025.


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## brick84

*SS 729 Sassari-Olbia, Sardinia*

the lot 9 opened to traffic


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## cinxxx

I took this photos on Saturday in Cortina d'Ampezzo


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## MichiH

brick84 said:


> *SS 729 Sassari-Olbia, Sardinia*
> the lot 9 opened to traffic


Can't believe that... It was always announced "to be opened soon" but always delayed... :nuts:

It was opened today according to this article: http://www.stradeeautostrade.it/not...ri-olbia-aperto-al-traffico-il-lotto-9-60827/.

It's reported that lot 3 will be completed till the end of 2017 and the last sections (lot 2, 4+5) are "in execution phase" since March 2017. They are to be completed within 2 years but the entrie SS729 is expected t be completed by the end of 2019. Have construction works in lot 2, 4+5 already began? 



> Per quanto riguarda la costruzione degli altri lotti, oltre ai lotti 3 e 6, sono nella fase esecutiva anche i lotti 2, 4 e 5, consegnati alle Imprese il 16 marzo 2017 con ultimazione prevista entro due anni. L’intero lotto 3 sarà terminato alla fine dell’anno in corso, portando a circa 42 i km di nuovo tracciato a quattro corsie della strada statale 729 ‘Sassari Olbia’.
> 
> La conclusione dell’opera complessiva è prevista entro la fine del 2019


----------



## brick84

*E78 | Grosseto-Fano, Tuscany*

_viaduct "Fama" and "Casal dei Pari" tunnel_


----------



## italystf

Expansion to 2x3 of A4 (section Latisana - San Giorgio di Nogaro)









http://www.udinetoday.it/cronaca/traffico-in-aumento-a-partire-da-venerdi-4-agosto.html


----------



## italystf

Scary condition of a bridge on SS145 between Castellamare di Stabia and Vico Equense, near Naples. hno:


----------



## Luki_SL

^^Is this bridge still open for traffic ? :runaway:


----------



## italystf

Luki_SL said:


> ^^Is this bridge still open for traffic ? :runaway:


Yes. That photo was published on FB by a well-known Italian vlogger.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It wouldn't surprise me if the Italian bridge problem is bigger than that of Germany.


----------



## g.spinoza

Part of the new carriageway of SS 76 in central Italy will be opened tonight, and all the 2-way traffic will be channeled through it, while works will begin for the adaptation of the old carriageway.
The stretches are the whole Fossato di Vico-Cancelli section (7.5 km, with 4.3 km in 5 tunnels - the longest being "Valico di Fossato" with 2.8 km), and 2 km on the other stretch Albacina-Serra San Quirico, roughly between Valtreara and Gattuccio, with 1150 m in tunnels.

The whole works should end by mid-2018.

http://www.stradeanas.it/it/quadril...va-carreggiata-tra-fossato-di-vico-e-cancelli


----------



## sotonsi

^^ is that actually SS76, or is that SS76 Var or something, with SS76 still on the old road (or with the old road now NSA439 or something until they hand it over to the province or region)? That seems to be typical Italian practice, making the road numbering rather messy.


----------



## g.spinoza

sotonsi said:


> ^^ is that actually SS76, or is that SS76 Var or something, with SS76 still on the old road (or with the old road now NSA439 or something until they hand it over to the province or region)? That seems to be typical Italian practice, making the road numbering rather messy.


No, province Ancona was quite tidy in the renumbering. New road is SS76, old road is SP76.
Keep in mind that in this case SS76 will be an upgrading of the old road, not a new alignment, so SP76 is probabily not happening.

Something like you mention happened for SS77, the second side of the Quadrilatero project. For some months after its completion, the new road was named SS77var, but starting January 1st, 2017 the SS77 denomination was given to the new expressway. According the ANAS website, though, a short section of SS77 var still exists, between Valdiea and Pontelatrave...


----------



## IThomas

Transport and Infrastructure Minister Graziano Delrio announced Monday that the interministerial economic planning committee (CIPE) has hailed a new contract programme for motorway group ANAS, totalling "more than 21.9 billion in financing". He said a new fee system called the "corrispettivo" would go into effect in 2019, in which "there will no longer be transfers in the capital account but rather fees according to services provided. It's a good news for public investments" he said.

http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/econ...-mld-e-anas-da-21-9-mld_3088136-201702a.shtml
http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/articoli/ContentItem-5e6ffb88-1fa0-4d0c-98b3-2055c5e50327.html


----------



## italystf

Widening to 2x3 of A4 Portogruaro - Alvisopoli will start in early 2018 and should be completed by 2021.
This section is 9 km long and should cost 172 million €.

http://messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it/...lto-via-al-collegamento-col-veneto-1.15687094


----------



## italystf

3,523 km of regional roads in different regions have been reclassificated into national roads and handed over to ANAS.
Those roads, among other, were former national roads downgraded in the early 2000s. In the 2010s, there's the trend to give many of them back to the State again.

http://www.stradeanas.it/it/confere...s-di-oltre-3500-km-rete-nazionale-e-regionale


----------



## lucaf1

New classification:

_SS ex SP ex SS 250_


?!

:lol: :bash:


----------



## italystf

In Friuli - Venezia Giulia all provincial roads were given from the four provinces to the region on 1st July 2016, although they still keep SP (strada provinciale) designation, and not SR (strada regionale).

SS15 near Trieste was handed to Trieste province in 2008 and it became "SP ex SS15". If Friuli - Venezia Giulia's SP roads will be renumbered to SR, it may become "SR ex (SP ex SS15) ex SS15". :lol:


----------



## brick84

*A2 - A3 | Napoli-Reggio Calabria*






logan1975 said:


> Un mio piccolo contributo fotografico


----------



## CNGL

italystf said:


> 3,523 km of regional roads in different regions have been reclassificated into national roads and handed over to ANAS.
> Those roads, among other, were former national roads downgraded in the early 2000s. In the 2010s, there's the trend to give many of them back to the State again.
> 
> http://www.stradeanas.it/it/confere...s-di-oltre-3500-km-rete-nazionale-e-regionale





lucaf1 said:


> New classification:
> 
> _SS ex SP ex SS 250_
> 
> 
> ?!
> 
> :lol: :bash:





italystf said:


> In Friuli - Venezia Giulia all provincial roads were given from the four provinces to the region on 1st July 2016, although they still keep SP (strada provinciale) designation, and not SR (strada regionale).
> 
> SS15 near Trieste was handed to Trieste province in 2008 and it became "SP ex SS15". If Friuli - Venezia Giulia's SP roads will be renumbered to SR, it may become "SR ex (SP ex SS15) ex SS15". :lol:


Knowing Italy I can expect anything. Any sensible country would just revert back to the pre-2000 designations.


----------



## darko06

And yes, there still exists one Italian style designed portal for Jastrebarsko exit above the Zagreb direction lane (or above Karlovac direction lane, I'm not sure now) some 500 meters before the exit, with rounded edges.









To expand the answer to Slovenia and finish the OT, below are two pictures from opening the segment Vrhnika-Postojna. One can clearly find Italian font, equal as at any Italian motorway from the 1970es:

















Avtocesta (sl) or autocesta (hr) is the direct translation from Italian term Autostrada.


----------



## x-type

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Unless of course it's a verb and object, as in "stop and pay [the] toll," a sign I've seen in New Jersey.
> :cheers:


you mean imperative case.
i have also noticed that "pay toll" thing that sounds so chinese (nhf to Chinese people here  )

what is the most confusing here in HR, we have it in 4 languages with 4 different phrases:
HR - toll
ENG - pay toll (imperative case)
D - motorway charge
I - toll payment
:nuts:


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> What is up with the term 'pay toll'? I've seen that in the Balkans as well. It sounds like crooked English.


"mit gebühr" is also kind of funny. The correct German term is "gebührenpflichtig" or "mautpflichtig".


----------



## Penn's Woods

x-type said:


> you mean imperative case.
> i have also noticed that "pay toll" thing that sounds so chinese (nhf to Chinese people here  )
> 
> what is the most confusing here in HR, we have it in 4 languages with 4 different phrases:
> HR - toll
> ENG - pay toll (imperative case)
> D - motorway charge
> I - toll payment
> :nuts:




It's a verb and object in the imperative. 
I did notice that on the Italian sign, the English was inconsistent in meaning with the other languages. "À péage" would mean something like "with a toll," although I don't think it works without the noun. Maybe they just vaguely felt they needed two words. :dunno:


----------



## italystf

darko06 said:


> Avtocesta (sl) or autocesta (hr) is the direct translation from Italian term Autostrada.


Words for 'motorway' in most European languages are the direct translation from the Italian term Autostrada, since Italy is (arguably*) the first country where roads for motor-vehicles only has been planned.

*First autostrada was planned in 1921 and opened in 1924. AVUS and Long Island Motor Parkway are older than it.


----------



## mistikos

A2 Mediterranean, from Cosenza to Pizzo:


----------



## x-type

Penn's Woods said:


> I did notice that on the Italian sign, the English was inconsistent in meaning with the other languages. "À péage" would mean something like "with a toll," although I don't think it works without the noun. Maybe they just vaguely felt they needed two words. :dunno:


that "à péage" thing would be something like "tolled", but in francophone languages there is no verb "to toll" like in english, so there is no direct translation of "tolled" (péagé, pedaggiato, peajado, that simply doesn't exist). afaik there is only in polish direct translation of "tolled" (płatna)


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I've read "pedaggiato" in Italian, but it feels like a horrible neologism...


----------



## MichiH

*SS675 Monte Romano est - Cinelli*



italystf said:


> Italy
> SS675 Monte Romano est - Cinelli 6,4 km 1st July 2015 to August 2017
> 
> http://roma.corriere.it/notizie/cron...280523ad.shtml
> (green on the map is the U/C part)


I found a report from May about the history of the Orte-Civitavecchia superstrada: http://roma.corriere.it/notizie/cro...ri-4b88aeee-2cf6-11e7-92e1-82e88da53692.shtml. It also reports that the section u/c is scheduled to be completed by 2018.


----------



## g.spinoza

Carabinieri of Trentino-Alto Adige were given by Autostrada del Brennero (A22) a hydrogen fuel cell car (a Hyundai ix35) for their patrol, for free use until August 2018.


















The car has 600 km driving range and 136 HP, and will use the hydrogen filling stations recently opened on the A22.

http://www.repubblica.it/motori/sezioni/ambiente/2017/09/21/news/i_carabinieri_viaggiano_con_l_auto_a_idrogeno-176149065/?ref=RHPPBT-VM-I0-C4-P10-S1.4-T1#gallery-slider=176119015


----------



## g.spinoza

There has been a collapse inside Gran San Bernardo tunnel yesterday, and the tunnel itself has been closed; all traffic are being re-routed through the Gran San Bernardo pass, Simplon and Chiasso.

At 8.30 am, in the Italian section of the tunnel part of a ventilation structure collapsed: according to the concessionaire, it is not a structural failure.

http://torino.repubblica.it/cronaca...o_il_traforo_del_gran_san_bernardo-176125281/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A city in the Netherlands has hydrogen buses. They have to be loaded on a flatbed truck and driven 200 kilometers to the nearest hydrogen filling station :lol:


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> A city in the Netherlands has hydrogen buses. They have to be loaded on a flatbed truck and driven 200 kilometers to the nearest hydrogen filling station :lol:


https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing


----------



## narkelion

ChrisZwolle said:


> A city in the Netherlands has hydrogen buses. They have to be loaded on a flatbed truck and driven 200 kilometers to the nearest hydrogen filling station :lol:


London has a line as well, the RV1, which runs on Hydrogen buses. Don't know where they fill up though, I guess they must have a special hydrogen station in one of the depots.


----------



## 8166UY

In the Netherlands they are also planning to build one in the north, but apparenlty it's faster to design, test and implement new busses.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The concept of hydrogen fuel cells is interesting, especially for heavy vehicles where large batteries are cumbersome or impossible. You can't load tonnes worth of batteries onto a 40 ton truck without exceeding weight limits or reducing cargo capacity.


----------



## italystf

There is a proposal to expand A4 between Brescia and Padova to 2x4, for a lenght of 146 km.

http://mattinopadova.gelocal.it/reg...-padova-in-agenda-la-quarta-corsia-1.15884615


----------



## g.spinoza

Detailed planimetry for A31 north extension project:

http://www.va.minambiente.it/it-IT/...e/1395/2951?pagina=1#form-cercaDocumentazione

more than 1800 pdf files. Enjoy...


----------



## brick84

A new stretch of 8.5 km of *SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta (Sicily) *opened to traffic today.

http://www.stradeanas.it/it/anas-st...n-nuovo-viadotto-al-giudice-antonino-saetta-e


:cheers:


----------



## Autobahn-mann

italystf said:


> There is a proposal to expand A4 between Brescia and Padova to 2x4, for a lenght of 146 km.
> 
> http://mattinopadova.gelocal.it/reg...-padova-in-agenda-la-quarta-corsia-1.15884615


It wuold be more useful between Padua East exit and IC with A57 near Dolo...


----------



## MichiH

cinxxx said:


> you can't predict 100% when or if someone will suffer some manic attack or something. Not even for healthy individuals. The same if someone will suffer a stroke or a heart attack.


I agree.

An example from today. A German court has decided that a drunk driver who almost killed a pedestrian will be jailed for 5 1/2 years because of *attempted murder*. He drove 70km/h on an urban street and escaped afterwards. The 77 years old man is totally paralyzed now, can only move his eyes. Source (German only).

Should every person lose the driving license who ever drove a car being drunk?
Should every person lose the driving license who has ever been drunk?



cinxxx said:


> To be 100% on the safe side we should ban driving completely :|.


Exactly!


----------



## MichiH

Sorry for one more OT post...

I think that depression is more accepted as an illness in Germany and there is more public discussion about depression than in many other countries.

I often listen to the radio and there are sometimes interesting interviews with depressed people talking about their fate (e.g. an author) or with psychologists. The big question is "where depression begins" (as cinxxx wrote, where is the limit/border). Even lovesickness is a minor kind of depression.

Should every person lose the driving license who ever had lovesickness?


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> I agree.
> 
> An example from today. A German court has decided that a drunk driver who almost killed a pedestrian will be jailed for 5 1/2 years because of *attempted murder*. He drove 70km/h on an urban street and escaped afterwards. The 77 years old man is totally paralyzed now, can only move his eyes. Source (German only).
> 
> Should every person lose the driving license who ever drove a car being drunk?
> Should every person lose the driving license who has ever been drunk?


If someone kills or severely harms someone in the process, you bet your ass he should!!


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> If someone kills or severely harms someone in the process, you bet your ass he should!!


Of course, but should it happen in advance? I don't think so...


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> Of course, but should it happen in advance? I don't think so...


I don't know. Maybe confiscate his vehicle would be more effective..


----------



## kreden

g.spinoza said:


> My understanding is that a driving license is not a human right, but a privilege. For me it's better to be on the safe side, that is revoking a license to someone healthy for excess of safety, than issuing one to someone who is at risk.


How do you define who is at risk? Preventing people from driving when they are experiencing a disorder that makes them unfit for driving sounds good in theory but how do you identify a person before they start showing symptoms? And even if they are diagnosed, if having a mental illness at one point in their lives automatically disqualified people from driving, you would have to revoke many more driving licences than you might imagine, to the point where it would have a significant impact on people's livelihoods and the economy, not to mention the stigma. A significant share of the population, perhaps even you, will fit the criteria for a mental illness at a point in their lives.


----------



## g.spinoza

kreden said:


> How do you define who is at risk? Preventing people from driving when they are experiencing a disorder that makes them unfit for driving sounds good in theory but how do you identify a person before they start showing symptoms?


I have no idea, I'm not a doctor.



> And even if they are diagnosed, if having a mental illness at one point in their lives automatically disqualified people from driving, you would have to revoke many more driving licences than you might imagine,
> to the point where it would have a significant impact on people's livelihoods and the economy, not to mention the stigma. A significant share of the population, perhaps even you, will fit the criteria for a mental illness at a point in their lives.


That's perfectly ok with me.


----------



## italystf

cinxxx said:


> It's not the psychiatric problem, you can't predict 100% when or if someone will suffer some manic attack or something. Not even for healthy individuals. The same if someone will suffer a stroke or a heart attack.
> 
> You have to draw a line somewhere, but is that line for every mentally ill person?
> Germans did that beginning of the 20. century by euthanizing disabled and mentally ill people...


Exactly, there's always a first time when someone shows the signs of their mental disease. Maybe that German guy had never do anything dangerous before his 40-km wrong-way drive.
There are many people who commit brutal murders or violence with no reason and everyone get surprised because "he looked a so nice person...", because their mental issues remained unnoticed until then.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Exactly, there's always a first time when someone shows the signs of their mental disease. Maybe that German guy had never do anything dangerous before his 40-km wrong-way drive.


Bear in mind that this guy was already diagnosed with mental disease, so much that the parents had doctor's papers to prove it...



> There are many people who commit brutal murders or violence with no reason and everyone get surprised because "he looked a so nice person...", because their mental issues remained unnoticed until then.


That's only because nobody pays any attention... especially the neighbours :lol:


----------



## cinxxx

g.spinoza said:


> Bear in mind that this guy was already diagnosed with mental disease, so much that the parents had doctor's papers to prove it...


Is it known exactly what kind of illness he had? Because you know, not every such illness makes you go out and drive on the wrong way. Had he been suicidal, we can be sure that he would have rammed his car into ongoing traffic...


----------



## nantro litro

italystf said:


> There are many people who commit brutal murders or violence with no reason and everyone get surprised because "he looked a so nice person...", because their mental issues remained unnoticed until then.


Being mentally insane is not a necessary condition to commit murders or brutal acts of violence


----------



## intersezioni

In Italy if you are not healthy do not sell a firearm!
And in germany? I'm curious 
Besides the driving license they would also sell a weapon, even if they knew they had mental problems?


----------



## MichiH

intersezioni said:


> Besides the driving license they would also sell a weapon, even if they knew they had mental problems?


Cars can be used as weapons...


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> That's perfectly ok with me.


That means, your girlfriend had never had a chance to get a driver license!


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> That means, your girlfriend had never had a chance to get a driver license!


At least she was evaluated by a professional team. 
If she wouldnt' be allowed to drive, I can understand.


----------



## brick84




----------



## ChrisZwolle

What is the difference between a 'valico' and a 'passo'?


----------



## nantro litro

^^
"Valico", "passo", "sella", also "colle": basically they're all synonyms

"Passo" is definitely the most common word.

"Colle" is used especially in western Alps and therefore one might consider it a rather "local" word, but the related verb "scollinare" (to reach the highest point on a mountain route and to be about to begin the downhill part) is universal.
"Colle" means also hill.

"Sella" literally means saddle.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> What is the difference between a 'valico' and a 'passo'?


I think they are not completely synonyms, you can use "valico" also for tunnels, in general it has more the sense of "going to the other side" not necessarily on a mountain saddle.
You can say "galleria di valico", meaning a tunnel that underpasses a watershed, but I've never heard of a "galleria di passo".

But nantro is right, some passes are known with "valico" some others with "passo", and it's not even depending on zones: in central Italy there are "Valico di Fossato" and "Passo della Scheggia", very close one another.


----------



## g.spinoza

The first "Telepass-only" exit in Italy is about to open on the A1, between Casalecchio di Reno and Sasso Marconi (Bologna suburbs). If I understood correctly it will be a semi-junction (only entrance from and exit to Bologna):



















You can see the Telepass-only gates and no other gates.
The exit is expected to open around Christmas.


----------



## Coccodrillo

g.spinoza said:


> I think they are not completely synonyms, you can use "valico" also for tunnels, in general it has more the sense of "going to the other side" not necessarily on a mountain saddle.


Yes, "valico" is also used for border crossings (_valico di Chiasso_).

"Sella" is usually used where there is a watershed, but where it is not evident as the two valleys loose height slowly, like between Toblach (Mediterranean basin) and Innichen (Black Sea basin). Here the watershed is at around 1220 m above sea level, but the valley floor is quite flat: the section above 1000 m on both sides of this saddle is around 45 km long and you don't clearly notice the differences in height.

To compare, a similar distance (by road) links Wassen and Faido (both around 900 m) via the Gotthard pass (2106 m).

https://www.google.ch/maps/place/39...f9fa83d9!8m2!3d46.704998!4d12.2289403!5m1!1e4

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toblacher_Feld

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sella_di_Dobbiaco

Another saddle is near Santa Maria Maggiore:

https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.1384294,8.4517286,14.25z/data=!5m1!1e4

Then there are absolutely unnoticeable watersheds on plains, like between Po and Adige rivers:

https://www.google.ch/maps/@45.0060374,11.6500364,11.46z/data=!5m1!1e4


----------



## nantro litro

Coccodrillo said:


> "Sella" is usually used where there is a watershed, but where it is not evident as the two valleys loose height slowly, like between Toblach (Mediterranean basin) and Innichen (Black Sea basin).


Not necessarily.
"Sella di Corno" is an Apennine pass along the SS17 road that separates the Tiber basin (western Med) from the Aterno-Pescara basin (eastern Med).
Whilst on the southeastern side (Aterno basin) there's a relatively gentle slope, going north-west (Tiber basin) one descends quickly and steeply into the bottom of the Velino valley (the Velino is a sub-tributary of the Tiber).
The highest point along the route (right on the watershed) is very evident.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Yes, usage of these terms is not unambiguous.


----------



## brick84

*SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta
*
Works summary


----------



## italystf

2x3 expansion of A4 between Gonars and Palmanova i/c with A23 has started today.
http://www.udinetoday.it/cronaca/lavori-terza-corsia-cantiere-nodo-palmanova.html


----------



## keber

what about Portogruaro-Noventa di Piave section? Is it started yet?


----------



## italystf

keber said:


> what about Portogruaro-Noventa di Piave section? Is it started yet?


Nope, we don't even know when it will start. hno: :bash:


----------



## keber

Today I was driving to Genova (hi from there  and I was quite surprised by speeding of pretty large amount of cars. I was driving with cruise control a little bit above 130 but many cars (about one fifth) were driving considerably faster, some at least 30 km/h more. Is Tutor system still in function or has large tolerances?


----------



## italystf

keber said:


> Today I was driving to Genova (hi from there  and I was quite surprised by speeding of pretty large amount of cars. I was driving with cruise control a little bit above 130 but many cars (about one fifth) were driving considerably faster, some at least 30 km/h more. Is Tutor system still in function or has large tolerances?


Not every stretch of Italian motorways has Tutor.


----------



## keber

I know, but A4 Padova-Brescia has it. And A7 over Apenines too. But there was no difference to other sections when observing speeders.


----------



## italystf

The tolerance is 5%, so 136.5 km/h.

Probably locals know the exact stretches with section control.


----------



## narkelion

A7 and A12 are all limited to much less than 130 in Liguria though.

Some stretches of the A7 are limited to 90 IIRC.


----------



## nantro litro

narkelion said:


> A7 and A12 are all limited to much less than 130 in Liguria though.


Yeah.
The speed limit on the A7 from Serravalle to Genoa Bolzaneto is 60 km/h.
If you're a good driver and decide to ignore the limit you should be able to cruise at 80 - 90 km/h.
In my opinion it is absolutely impossible to drive any faster.


----------



## pccvspw999

In Italy we have a large abuse of speed limitations because of other reasons than presente danger.
On motorways speed limit below 130 km/h shall be always temporary, using temporary signeage. So, when the reason for the speed limit is no more present, the speed limit is set to normal conditions. In this way drivers can recognize that a speed limit, when placed, it’s for a good reason, an will comply easier.
If the speed limit can’t be temporary, within a reasonable time, depending on the reason, the road MUST be upgraded to fulfill the requirements for the normal speed limit. If not, no more toll shall be withdrawn.


----------



## keber

Speed limit on A7 curvy section in direction of Genova is mostly 80-90 km/h, even 100 km/h and only really close to Genova it can drop to 60 km/h. But even those speed limits are too high. So can drive faster if you dare (and most do that) but visibility in many curves is so low that it is unsafe to drive even 10 km/h below official speed limit (in case of stopped vehicle or some other obstacles).


----------



## nantro litro

^^
You drove on the A7 (southbound carriageway) recently, therefore I suppose you're correct.
I thought the whole Apennine chunk from Serravalle to Bolzaneto was 60 km/h, but evidently my memory doesn't serve me right.

But the point is (and I wholeheartedly agree with you) that it is extremely unsafe to drive any faster than, say, 80 km/h.


----------



## italystf

A scaffolding collapsed on SR14 near Trieste during works to reinforce a landslide-prone rock wall. A worker was severly injured and it's not known when the road will reopen.









http://www.triesteprima.it/cronaca/...cantiere-sotto-sequestro-e-strada-chiusa.html


----------



## italystf

According to Autovie Venete, A4 between Noventa di Piave and Portogruaro will widened to 2x3 only in 2025-2031 period, for funding reasons. hno:

http://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/vene...o-rinvio-da-san-dona-a-portogruaro-1.16056838


----------



## Verso

^^ Jesus Christ, that's another 14 years. :nuts:


I recently drove on the SR14 to Trieste. It's a really beautiful coastal road, it's truly a must-see.


----------



## sponge_bob

nantro litro said:


> Yeah.
> The speed limit on the A7 from Serravalle to Genoa Bolzaneto is 60 km/h.
> If you're a good driver and decide to ignore the limit you should be able to cruise at 80 - 90 km/h.
> In my opinion it is absolutely impossible to drive any faster.


But is that not an incredibly ancient stretch of road from the 1930s or so??


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ It was not created to be a main East-West Route. You simply don't go to west of Milan by A35.


----------



## lucaf1

Road signs in A4 for the new link with A35:



















https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Segnaletica_per_raccordo_per_A35_in_A4_direzione_Milano.jpg


----------



## italystf

^^ Milan in both directions will cause confusion to drivers.


----------



## pccvspw999

But whatelse shall they write? The destinations in the white fields shall help to decide properly, for those who knew Milan.


----------



## italystf

pccvspw999 said:


> But whatelse shall they write? The destinations in the white fields shall help to decide properly, for those who knew Milan.


A4: Turin - Varese - Como - CH - Malpensa
A35: Milan centre - Linate
It would allow a more equal distribution of traffic between A4 and A35.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's a good point. One destination via two routes on one signage point is a bad idea. For example, if you're going to Torino, should you follow A4 or A35? We know that A4 is the through route, but many people aren't too aware of route numbers and may think A35 is something similar to A21.


----------



## JakeOnBreak

Maybe "MILANO nord" for A4 and "MILANO est" for A35?


----------



## narkelion

Well, I'm not 100% sure on who decides signage. If, for A4, is Autostrade per l'Italia SpA, I can clearly understand that they left Milan (A4) to have people going to Milan splitting equally.

They'd lose much more cars (and hence $$) if they didn't put "Milan (A4)". 100% of people who doesn't know the route would follow A35.


----------



## Slodi

Malpensa sign should be above Orio al Serio sign as Milano stays above Bergamo, imo.


----------



## Coccodrillo

For transit traffic (that is, from before the A4-A58 junction to after the A35-A4 junction) the BreBeMi is slightly longer and more expensive, but with much less traffic which compensate everything. I have nearly always used it since it has opened, coming from A9-A8-A4. This link should have been built together with the rest of the motorway...

What is its traffic now, on the most used section?


----------



## g.spinoza

A section of expressway SS 106 "Ionica", in the territory of Borgia (Calabria) opened in 2010-2011, now features lanes reductions after part of the carriageway collapsed. Here's a picture:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A section of the retaining wall has collapsed:


----------



## pccvspw999

Sorry, but guard-rails are different. Pictures show different situations.
Anyway, not longer that one month ago, the road was repaired (as You can see the pavement is pretty new), beacuse of infiltrations (of water, I guess:hmm: someone made a mistake...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Strange, the article with accompanying photos was posted today: http://www.corriere.it/foto-gallery...ni-a820cfd0-ce98-11e7-bf2a-292d3c6f067f.shtml


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Strange, the article with accompanying photos was posted today: http://www.corriere.it/foto-gallery...ni-a820cfd0-ce98-11e7-bf2a-292d3c6f067f.shtml


Yes, that wall collapsed last June:
http://www.catanzaroinforma.it/notizia101124/Statale-106-crolla-muro-di-contenimento.html#

They mixed them up.


----------



## g.spinoza

Italian government overruled the outcome of EIA, by approving the project for expressway SS675 between the junction with SS1 and Monte Romano. It will be 18 km of dual carriageway, for an expenditure of 472,23 M€.








http://www.stradeeautostrade.it/not...-civitavecchia-governo-approva-lultimo-lotto/

I was surprised by the fact that the government can overrule the decision by EIA committee. It's the first time I read something like that.


----------



## Pfosten

https://www.stol.it/Artikel/Wirtschaft/Lokal/A22-Dritte-Fahrspur-in-Richtung-Norden-nicht-moeglich

I don't understand why there should be no possibility to widen A22 between Bolzano and Trento.....!? Due to my opinion it would be very necessary.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> Wichtige - wenn auch schon oft angesprochene - Lösungen für den Verkehr auf der A22 seien auch die Verlegung des Güterverkehrs auf Schienen und die Mauterhöhung für Lastwagen auf der A22.


I don't have traffic volume data for Italy, but Asfinag reports an average workday truck volume of 7,900 at the Brenner Pass. While that's a substantial amount of trucks (significantly more than at the Gotthard), it's nothing extraordinary compared to Central Europe or perhaps even the rest of Italy, where truck volumes are often in the 12,000 - 18,000 range on major corridors.

Also, the worst traffic is usually on days that trucks are banned from driving, so a shift to rail - while maybe useful - won't do much to alleviate congestion on A22. 



> Allerdings, so betont Kompatscher: „In Richtung Norden haben wir schon allein aus rein technischen Gründen keine Möglichkeit, eine 3. Fahrspur anzulegen. Dazu müsste man eine zweite Autobahn bauen - und das schließen wir aus.“


It likely requires a very expensive rebuild of the existing motorway, or a new carriageway, for example turning 2+2 into 3+2+2 (3 + 4).


----------



## g.spinoza

Brennerpass is not the problem, Sterzing toll booth is. During vacation days it becomes a major bottleneck.
Southbound, the major bottleneck is represented by Affi junction. It is heavily used by anyone who is going West towards Milan, using the SR450 expressway to Peschiera and then entering A4, saving tolls and a bunch of km. The Affi junction is dramatically unable to handle this large volume of traffic, so the queue at the junction reaches well into A22. You can expand to as many lanes as you want, but you will not solve the problem unless you transform SR450 into a direct autostrada spur, with no toll barriers.


----------



## keber

Widening is most problematic in areas with long hillside viaducts, that are mostly north of Bolzano. Technically everything is possible, but in this case all solutions are very expensive.


----------



## g.spinoza

Starting on January 2018 as a pilot project, and on February as a service for all the customers, Italian TELEPASS will be interoperative with toll booths and barriers in France, Spain and Portugal.

The service will cost an additional 2,40 € per month - but only for months during which you actually used the service abroad. 
To start using the new service, the user will just have to go to a "Punto Blu" (motorway infopoints) where a new multi-standard device will be given in exchange for the old one.

For trucks, a similar service called TELEPASS EU - working in France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium (Liefkenshoek Tunnel), Poland (A4 Krakow-Katowize) and Austria - is already in operation since 2016.

http://www.motorbox.com/auto/magazi...18-pedaggi-anche-in-francia-spagna-portogallo


----------



## ChrisZwolle

€ 2.50 is what they charge me for the AREA transponder in the months that I use it. 

It appears that Europe is slowly getting more organized with interoperable electronic tolling systems. You can use the EasyGo service in Scandinavia and there are companies that sell transponders that work in France, Spain and Portugal. It only makes sense for the interoperability to include Italy. 

Previous deadlines for EU-wide interoperability were not met. The idea was that any transponder in Europe would work on any toll road in Europe. So you could use Telepass, Autopass, Via Verde or whichever transponder throughout Europe without any hassle.


----------



## Suburbanist

This is something the EU should impose on all member states: a single, brand new, RFID transponder, readable at high speeds. All cars driven in EEA should be fitted with one, maybe they can expand that area to include also peripheral countries outside EEA. All member-states should have an easy collection mechanism for international tolls.

Then give 5 years for toll operators to adjust. All toll stations must have at least one fully operable lane with the new standard.

Postive side-effect: the elimination of physical toll plazas becomes suddenly viable. And parking garages could also adhere in mass to this scheme.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Starting on January 2018 as a pilot project, and on February as a service for all the customers, Italian TELEPASS will be interoperative with toll booths and barriers in France, Spain and Portugal.
> 
> The service will cost an additional 2,40 € per month - but only for months during which you actually used the service abroad.
> To start using the new service, the user will just have to go to a "Punto Blu" (motorway infopoints) where a new multi-standard device will be given in exchange for the old one.
> 
> For trucks, a similar service called TELEPASS EU - working in France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium (Liefkenshoek Tunnel), Poland (A4 Krakow-Katowize) and Austria - is already in operation since 2016.
> 
> http://www.motorbox.com/auto/magazi...18-pedaggi-anche-in-francia-spagna-portogallo


It's the first stem towards the implementation of an EU-wide tolling system, well done!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some U.S. toll road agencies use RFID stickers (passive tags) that do not require a battery. They cost less than a dollar in some states.


----------



## Shenkey

Suburbanist said:


> This is something the EU should impose on all member states: a single, brand new, RFID transponder, readable at high speeds. All cars driven in EEA should be fitted with one, maybe they can expand that area to include also peripheral countries outside EEA. All member-states should have an easy collection mechanism for international tolls.
> 
> Then give 5 years for toll operators to adjust. All toll stations must have at least one fully operable lane with the new standard.
> 
> Postive side-effect: the elimination of physical toll plazas becomes suddenly viable. And parking garages could also adhere in mass to this scheme.


I guess it would make sense to make it part of homologation and force it to be build into cars.

Then you could pay when you are doing the yearly registration.


----------



## Suburbanist

Transponders are dirty cheap and would not cost more than € 10 or € 15 per car. Their batteries easily years without replacement.

The transmitter boxes in Italy, France and Spain were really groundbreaking in the 1990s, when they were introduced. But technology has caught up and cheaper solutions exist.

Now imagine how much money would Italian authorities save by not having to build overcomplicated junctions which are only complicated because of the need to place toll booths (let alone the space taken by toll plazas which might be redeveloped into massive rest stops/truck stops - which are badly needed).


----------



## keber

I would even say "remove all transponders and use register plate recognition" as this technology is now pretty ripe. It works very well in Hungary. I noticed here in Slovenia that even a local supermarket decided to use videorecognition for allowing their customers to park for a limited time and it appears to work pretty well.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> I would even say "remove all transponders and use register plate recognition" as this technology is now pretty ripe. It works very well in Hungary. I noticed here in Slovenia that even a local supermarket decided to use videorecognition for allowing their customers to park for a limited time and it appears to work pretty well.


I would agree, in principle, to use plate recognition for European tolling on one condition: a single European registry of vehicles. As for now there are too many risks of plate collisions (two cars having the "same" plate). For instance, new French plates have the exact same layout as Italian ones.


----------



## narkelion

They have the dashes in between.

AA-000-AA is different from AA 000AA.

Albanian plates are the same as Italian ones, though.


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> They have the dashes in between.
> 
> AA-000-AA is different from AA 000AA.
> 
> Albanian plates are the same as Italian ones, though.


I know, but an automatic system may be capable to accomodate only numbers and letters. And, quite frankly, the dashes in French plates are quite insignificant:


----------



## narkelion

Well yes. But if it was to be built a system for that, I guess they will think it through to avoid these mismatches.

Also there are a bunch of countries with plates like AAA BBB: Sweden Finland the Baltic countries and so on.

I guess there will be many more problems there.


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> Well yes. But if it was to be built a system for that, I guess they will think it through to avoid these mismatches.
> 
> Also there are a bunch of countries with plates like AAA BBB: Sweden Finland the Baltic countries and so on.
> 
> I guess there will be many more problems there.


I agree. But such a system would have to be retro-compatible with all kinds of past license layouts. I think that a universal transponder is far more feasible and cheaper to implement.


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> I would agree, in principle, to use plate recognition for European tolling on one condition: a single European registry of vehicles. As for now there are too many risks of plate collisions (two cars having the "same" plate). For instance, new French plates have the exact same layout as Italian ones.


In Hungary that works very good - I think it is not just a simple letter&number checking but also layout and design.


----------



## narkelion

Well, to be honest, I received a fine from France a couple of months ago, with my italian license plate.

It means that they can easily distinguish between the two.

Maybe they can read the country code on the left blue EU bar? Dunno.


----------



## keber

Maybe some of you quite underestimate possibilities of video recognition. Technology has improved so much in last decade that separating the same number on Lithuanian or Hungarian plates (that are probably the most similar register plates in EU) should be almost trivial task.
Just look at your smartphone and try to install some software that recognizes text from live picture. You would be amazed what your phone can do that was only 10 years ago almost science fiction.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Maybe some of you quite underestimate possibilities of video recognition. Technology has improved so much in last decade that separating the same number on Lithuanian or Hungarian plates (that are probably the most similar register plates in EU) should be almost trivial task.
> Just look at your smartphone and try to install some software that recognizes text from live picture. You would be amazed what your phone can do that was only 10 years ago almost science fiction.


Maybe you're right, but in Spain I was trying to access a parking lot which worked by plate recognition and didn't manage to. Later I was told that the camera misread a D as a B...

But that was in 2011, maybe it has improved since.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> I agree. But such a system would have to be retro-compatible with all kinds of past license layouts. I think that a universal transponder is far more feasible and cheaper to implement.


Most European countries have a wide array of plates for different types of vehiles: police, military, diplomatic, taxi, temporary, etc..., plus all kinds of obsolete plates that are still valid.


----------



## keber

I believe there has to be some database of all valid plates and that database shouldn't be too big. There are hundreds of different plate types in USA (some of them are very colorful) and still all are controlled and successfully recognised on different toll sections all over USA.

Also even with video recognition you still need flying patrols.


----------



## italystf

Moreover, even if a small percentage of vehicles with special plates won't be tolled, the profit generated by removal of toll booths may still be positive.


----------



## Suburbanist

Plate recognition makes it easier to clone than transponders. Better yet, have both. I also agree with a central European registry of vehicles.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> Plate recognition makes it easier to clone than transponders. Better yet, have both. I also agree with a central European registry of vehicles.


It should be useful also to address fines and to check if vehicles are insured and if they have passed the revision.


----------



## g.spinoza

Funds for the upgrade of Lodi's SP415, lot 2.2 between Zelo Buon Persico (A58) and Spino d'Adda, have been secured. The 3.2 km of expressway upgrade will cost 23.5 M€.
http://www.cremaonline.it/politica/...23+milioni+di+euro,+secondo+lotto+finanziato/


----------



## keber

italystf said:


> It should be useful also to address fines and to check if vehicles are insured and if they have passed the revision.


Actually anything that removes Italian tollgates will be better than today.


----------



## cougar1989

That sound interesting that it is possible to use the Telepass at France, Portugal and Spain soon.
It is possible to use the France BIP&Go Liber-t box also at Spain. I hope that they would expand to Italy, so I would like to order it.


----------



## pccvspw999

The "Pedemontana" motorway uses a plate recognition system called "free flow". It can be a good experience to overcome the problems this system may have.
How do they manage plates with identical numbering, but from different different nations? Does the system recognize the letter on the blu strip on the left? The european flag, or the albanian eagle?
In general: which problems do they have with all possible cases of abuse or not? Did the already think about possible, practical solutions?
"Free flow" is also an experiment, the experiences shall be kept for futur applications, even if it will fail in this first one.


----------



## Shenkey

Should not have been a problem with good cameras.

What I am not sure is if you put some dirt on it, if there is a mist, ice on it, ...


----------



## g.spinoza

Today the semi-junction "Sasso Marconi Nord" on the A1, just south of Bologna, has been inaugurated. It works only to and from Bologna. It features is the first Telepass-only toll booth interchange in the network.

It is expected to attract 10 ktransits per day (23% of trucks) relieving SS64 from its daily commute traffic and queues.
It costed 10 M€.

http://www.ilrestodelcarlino.it/bologna/cronaca/casello-sasso-marconi-1.3615861


----------



## g.spinoza

Ex-minister for Infrastructures during Berlusconi government, Altero Matteoli, was killed today in an accident on SS1 Aurelia.

Curiously, Matteoli was one of the biggest sponsors of A12 completion, which should have run parallel to SS1 and in many cases would have replaced it entirely.

http://firenze.repubblica.it/cronac...ale-184494652/?ref=RHPPLF-BL-I0-C8-P1-S1.8-T1


----------



## mistikos

A2 del Mediterraneo - From Laino Borgo to Padula:


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> It features the first Telepass-only toll booth on the network.


First? What are then numerous other Telepass-only toll booths?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Maybe the entire interchange is Telepass only? 

Japan uses these on some interchanges, where you can only pay with transponder, not cash or cards.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> First? What are then numerous other Telepass-only toll booths?





ChrisZwolle said:


> Maybe the entire interchange is Telepass only?
> 
> Japan uses these on some interchanges, where you can only pay with transponder, not cash or cards.


Uh yes, sorry about that. What I meant is that the entire interchange is Telepass-only.
I can't wait to see the many blockings and disruptions caused by non-Telepass cars trying to use the interchange...


----------



## g.spinoza

Italian Ministry for Infrastructures and Transports has published the annual report on road accidents, in cooperation with the Italian Institute for Statistics. It regards year 2016.


In absolute numbers, in 2016 there were 175,791 accidents, 249,175 wounded and 3,283 fatalities.
For the first time in 15 years it is recorded a yearly rise in accidents (0.7%) and wounded (0.9%) but there is a decline in fatalities (-4.2%).
Between 2001 and 2016 accidents and wounded both were reduced by 33.2%, while fatalities were more than halved (-53.7%).
Urban roads recorded three quarters of the total crashes but less than half of the total fatalities. Motorways recorded 5% of the crashes and 8% of the fatalities.

All the documents can be found here (italian only):
http://www.mit.gov.it/documentazion...asporti-stradali-anche-con-riferimento-alla-0


----------



## MichiH

*SS195 expressway*



italystf said:


> SS195 expressway is being constructed south of Cagliari, Sardinia, Italy.
> 
> Sarroch-north of Sarroch 1 km ? to 12 August 2017
> 
> Sarroch-Pula 4 km ? to late 2017
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=sarroch#map=14/39.0423/8.9937
> 
> http://www.stradeanas.it/it/sardegn...o-al-traffico-il-nuovo-svincolo-di-sarroch-da


Is there more info about the project?

The press release reports about a 1km and a 4km section of lot 3 but also mentions a 8km section lot 1. Lot 2 in the south is 2-laned only?

"sarà riaperto al traffico" is translated "reopened". Is it a new expressway or an old (2-laned?) improved to expressway standard?

If I got it right:

Lot 1 has a length of about 8.5km: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...13732;178773;56219;119520;69522;98880;62227;0
Lot 3.2 has a length of about 5km: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...68;23603;265481;39482;207197;50640;156569;0;0 (it seems to be opened now, any info when it was opened?)
Lot 3.1 has a length of about 2km: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...&m=o&gz=0;89875459;390555675;66518;186930;0;0 (the section "Sarroch - Zona Industriale" opened last August?)
Lot 2 has a length of about 3.5km: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...342;10299;182346;0;121347;3433;107013;20599;0 (also 2x2 according to OSM?)

Am I wrong?

In addition, there seems to be another 4km future expressway section: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...4502;266041;78105;126382;96988;65521;156211;0 Is it u/c?


----------



## MichiH

2017 is not yet over but.... is there any info if the announced completion dates are still up-to-date? Is A18 still expected to be opened next week? Are there new estimates?



MichiH said:


> 2017 opening:
> *A18:* Rosolini – Ispica/Pozzallo 8km (June 2014 to 2017) – project – map
> *SS223:* north of Casale di Pari – Casale di Pari 2km (2013 to 2017) – project – map
> *SS729:* Monti-West – Monti/Telti 6.4km (February 2015 to 2017?) – project – map
> *SR8:* Talsano-North – Pulsano-East 11km (August 2014 to 2017?) – ? – map
> *SS729:* Martis (SS132) – east of Martis ~2km (August 2014 to Late 2017) – project – map
> *SS96 Barese:* Toritto – Modungo/Bitetto 9km (December 2013 to December 2017) – ? – map
> 
> 2018 opening:
> *SS106:* west of Palizzi Marina – east of Palizzi Marina 2.3km (August 2006 to March 2018) – project – map
> *SS640:* Caltanissetta-Favarella – east of Caltanissetta-Xirbi ~19km (April 2012 to Early 2018) – project – map


----------



## narkelion

As far as I know, A18 should open in March 2019, with works ending December 2018.


----------



## MichiH

narkelion said:


> As far as I know, A18 should open in March 2019, with works ending December 2018.


The 2nd section up to Modica? But I think that the first section Rosolini – Ispica/Pozzallo was announced to be opened earlier...


----------



## narkelion

MichiH said:


> The 2nd section up to Modica? But I think that the first section Rosolini – Ispica/Pozzallo was announced to be opened earlier...


Hmmm, I didn't know they were going to open that section first.

Articles from August 2017 do not look happy, though: 

http://www.siracusanews.it/autostra...o-operai-licenziati-gennuso-gravita-inaudita/

http://www.siracusanews.it/dal-19-luglio-saranno-sospesi-lavori-sullautostrada-siracusa-gela/

Looks like works have stopped in July. I highly doubt opening times won't change, probably far in the future.

And they will lose EU funds, apparently.


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> Is there more info about the project?
> 
> The press release reports about a 1km and a 4km section of lot 3 but also mentions a 8km section lot 1. Lot 2 in the south is 2-laned only?
> 
> "sarà riaperto al traffico" is translated "reopened". Is it a new expressway or an old (2-laned?) improved to expressway standard?
> 
> If I got it right:
> 
> Lot 1 has a length of about 8.5km: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...13732;178773;56219;119520;69522;98880;62227;0
> Lot 3.2 has a length of about 5km: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...68;23603;265481;39482;207197;50640;156569;0;0 (it seems to be opened now, any info when it was opened?)
> Lot 3.1 has a length of about 2km: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...&m=o&gz=0;89875459;390555675;66518;186930;0;0 (the section "Sarroch - Zona Industriale" opened last August?)
> Lot 2 has a length of about 3.5km: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...342;10299;182346;0;121347;3433;107013;20599;0 (also 2x2 according to OSM?)
> 
> Am I wrong?
> 
> In addition, there seems to be another 4km future expressway section: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...4502;266041;78105;126382;96988;65521;156211;0 Is it u/c?


The section opened in August is a duplication of the existing road.
The other opened section is much older, certainly before 2014, so it's not relevant for your project.
The U/C section in the south will be a new alignment.
I've not (yet) info about the continuation toward North


----------



## Eddard Stark

Unfortunately no, apart from my secret terrorist organisation


----------



## Suburbanist

The _Sopraelevata di Genova_ is an engineering mastperpiece.


----------



## Highway89

[Sorry for the OT]


Puležan said:


> In Yugoslavia there was at least one section that had a suicide lane (or something similar) - controlled-access road from Učka tunnel to Matulji/Matuglie. Even today, this section of Istrian Y (B8) has 3 lanes and you can use the middle one for both directions (it's for uphill traffic, but cars going downhill can use it to overtake) :crazy:
> 
> [URL="
> 
> In Yugoslavia there was at least one section that had a suicide lane (or something similar) - controlled-access road from Učka tunnel to Matulji/Matuglie. Even today, this section of Istrian Y (B8) has 3 lanes and you can use the middle one for both directions (it's for uphill traffic, but cars going downhill can use it to overtake) :crazy:
> 
> https://www.google.hr/maps/@45.3185...4!1slKkVT4hyaLlQcg4NgyZxcA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


That layout is actually pretty common in Spain. Sometimes you can even use the leftmost lane to overtake someone who's driving on the middle lane, meaning that 2 out of the 3 lanes can be used in both directions : https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4317...4!1sPzI2Np67SZurQoqeIhfWxw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## Eddard Stark

Suburbanist said:


> The _Sopraelevata di Genova_ is an engineering mastperpiece.




It should be in a museum then, and free the city of its ‘masterpiecing’


----------



## g.spinoza

Yuri S Andrade said:


> Is there any plan to replace Genoa's elevated highway? I googled and found nothing about it, at least in English.


As a matter of fact there is, it's an immersed tunnel under the bay. Every now and then the idea resurfaces, I think at some point a project was drafted, or at least a feasibility study. Now it's on hold but who knows.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> The _Sopraelevata di Genova_ is an engineering mastperpiece.


Maybe. It's one of the ugliest things I've ever seen, too.


----------



## MichiH

*SS640 Agrigento - Caltanissetta*



g.spinoza said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brick84 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta, Sicily*
> 
> _5 km of a next stretch from Caltanissetta to junction of highway A19 opened to traffic today_
> www.stradeanas.it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> italystf said:
> 
> 
> 
> *8 July 2016*
> 
> A 5-km section of SS640 opened to traffic in Sicily between the junction with A19 and the interchange of Caltanissetta Nord.
> SS640 will became a full expressway connecting Agrigento with A19 near Caltanissetta.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> According to OSM, the section has a length of about 7km and does not end at an interchange: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=3...92;329477;178527;262776;56648;243718;0;239634.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe it wasn't updated correctly on OSM.
> I think that 5 km are those which weren't 4-lane yet, over a 7-km total stretch.
Click to expand...




g.spinoza said:


> *20 January 2018*
> 
> A 2.7 km section of SS640 "degli Scrittori" in Sicily has opened, between Favarella and Scaringi.
> 
> http://cmcgruppo.com/blogit/2018/01/20/lavori-in-sicilia-aperto-un-nuovo-tratto-della-ss-640/


I think the current situation is as follows:

*SS640:* east of Cannemaschi – Caltanissetta-Favarella 8.5km (April 2012 to 25th September 2017) – project – map
*SS640:* Caltanissetta-Favarella – east of Caltanissetta-Favarella 1km (April 2012 to 2018?) – project – map - the so-called Favarella artificial tunnel, see latest press release
*SS640:* east of Caltanissetta-Favarella – Caltanissetta-Sanatorio 2.7km (April 2012 to 20th January 2018) – project – map
*SS640:* Caltanissetta-Sanatorio – east of Caltanissetta-Xirbi 9km (April 2012 to 2018?) – project – map
*SS640:* east of Caltanissetta-Xirbi – west of Caltanissetta (SS626) 5km (April 2012 to 8th July 2016) – project – map - see OSM and Google Satellite
*SS640:* west of Caltanissetta (SS626) – Caltanissetta (A19) 3km (April 2012 to 2018?) – project – map - see OSM and Google Satellite

Is there any news when the remaining sections are expected to be opened?


----------



## Eddard Stark

g.spinoza said:


> As a matter of fact there is, it's an immersed tunnel under the bay. Every now and then the idea resurfaces, I think at some point a project was drafted, or at least a feasibility study. Now it's on hold but who knows.




Unfortunately it’s just a vague idea with no project behind


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Suburbanist said:


> The _Sopraelevata di Genova_ is an engineering mastperpiece.


:|

Maybe we should build another one by the Arno to boost Florence a bit...


----------



## g.spinoza

Yuri S Andrade said:


> :|
> 
> Maybe we should build another one by the Arno to boost Florence a bit...


Please, don't talk about things you obviously know nothing about...


----------



## Suburbanist

Most of The neighborhoods crossed by the sopraelevata di Genova are either industrial and port facilities or some particularly cramped, historically environs of epidemics and squalid living conditions that have streets so narrow sun doesn't reach the ground floor windows most of the year. Just look at Google street view...

Anyhow, they might put it in a tunnel but that would not make places any less decayed . On my the area closer to the fairgournds are really negatively affected by the presence of the elevated highway.

A large scale partial demolition plan that preserved half the buildings and restores them but tore down the rest, block by block, to provide more open areas, sightlines and small pocket green parks would be welcomed. Other industrial cities IN Italy engaged in widescale demolitions in the 1950s and 1960s of these cramped areas. Don't know why Genova lagged (it was not a very poor place like Palermo or Napoli)


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ _Sopraelevata_ replacements are going on - or at least planned - more or less everywhere in Italy. Rome just begun by replacing a section of Tangenziale Est sopraelevata with a tunnel, Torino is to follow soon - Corso Grosseto sopraelevata is being torn down and a new surface boulevard will took its place. Also Moncalieri sopraelevata is being considered for replacement.
Years between 1960s and 70s did an enormous damage to urban developement in Italy: plans where sloppy, often not applied, everyone felt they could built whatever wherever because of the economic boom. In hindsight, 99% of what was built then is pure shit.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Suburbanist said:


> Most of The neighborhoods crossed by the sopraelevata di Genova are either industrial and port facilities or some particularly cramped, historically environs of epidemics and squalid living conditions that have streets so narrow sun doesn't reach the ground floor windows most of the year. Just look at Google street view...
> 
> Anyhow, they might put it in a tunnel but that would not make places any less decayed . On my the area closer to the fairgournds are really negatively affected by the presence of the elevated highway.
> 
> A large scale partial demolition plan that preserved half the buildings and restores them but tore down the rest, block by block, to provide more open areas, sightlines and small pocket green parks would be welcomed. Other industrial cities IN Italy engaged in widescale demolitions in the 1950s and 1960s of these cramped areas. Don't know why Genova lagged (it was not a very poor place like Palermo or Napoli)


You are describing historic quarters of every Italian city: narrow streets are one of the most important features there. Don't be absurd.

The elevated highway helped to prevent Genoa to become a prestigious tourism hotspot.


----------



## verreme

Yuri S Andrade said:


> The elevated highway helped to prevent Genoa to become a prestigious tourism hotspot.


Somehow you made me wish there was a _sopraelevata_ in my city. Yes it'd be a lot uglier and dirtier, but we'd pay lower rent prices


----------



## g.spinoza

Yuri S Andrade said:


> You are describing historic quarters of every Italian city: narrow streets are one of the most important features there. Don't be absurd.
> 
> The elevated highway helped to prevent Genoa to become a prestigious tourism hotspot.


The fact that you think this is a good thing says all.


----------



## narkelion

Suburbanist said:


> Most of The neighborhoods crossed by the sopraelevata di Genova are either industrial and port facilities or some particularly cramped, historically environs of epidemics and squalid living conditions that have streets so narrow sun doesn't reach the ground floor windows most of the year. Just look at Google street view...
> 
> Anyhow, they might put it in a tunnel but that would not make places any less decayed . On my the area closer to the fairgournds are really negatively affected by the presence of the elevated highway.
> 
> A large scale partial demolition plan that preserved half the buildings and restores them but tore down the rest, block by block, to provide more open areas, sightlines and small pocket green parks would be welcomed. Other industrial cities IN Italy engaged in widescale demolitions in the 1950s and 1960s of these cramped areas. Don't know why Genova lagged (it was not a very poor place like Palermo or Napoli)


Looks like you've never actually been in Genova. 

The sopraelevata is one of the ugliest stretches of road of the entire planet. Yes, it's definitely helpful for through traffic of a city with real orographic challenges, but it kills the city COMPLETELY.

The waterfront in Genova is an absolute masterpiece, ruined and killed by the 60's with a few HORRID buildings and the Sopraelevata.

Palazzo di San Giorgio is simply stunning.










View of it is constantly blocked by the Sopraelevata. This is what you see from the ground:










Genova is an amazing city, incredibly underrated. But everytime I see this pic here, I perfectly understand why.


----------



## Suburbanist

I have been in Genova waterfront several times. And driven on the Sopraelevata half a dozen, probably as well.

I am not saying the highway shouldn't be put in a tunnel, I am saying that it was an engineering masterpiece at time of completion, in a region and city that are no short of them.


----------



## narkelion

Suburbanist said:


> I have been in Genova waterfront several times. And driven on the Sopraelevata half a dozen, probably as well.
> 
> I am not saying the highway shouldn't be put in a tunnel, I am saying that it was an engineering masterpiece at time of completion, in a region and city that are no short of them.


It was an engineering masterpiece, a master piece of garbage.


----------



## Suburbanist

narkelion said:


> It was an engineering masterpiece, a master piece of garbage.


Do you really think that with the exception of the aforementioned palace and a couple other buildings, the area of city districts (sestieri) Prè, Molo and Madalena, which had swaths demolished in the 1950s and 1960s, wasn't a serious problem for the city for which the Sopraelevata construction provided the opportunity to demolish in part, opening new land near the waterfront where they later build the Aquarium for instance? 

That area was full of late 18th to mid 19th century squarlor. With some architectural gems that were preserved and cleaned up of their late appendages... but that is way off topic.

Matter of fact is that several Italian cities had new boulevards and roads widened in the 2nd half of 18th century but Genova escaped that process in the 'centro storico'. Even Rome had some new big boulevards carved out of areas with shabby houses and nondescript 1780-1840 buildings.


----------



## narkelion

Suburbanist said:


> Do you really think that with the exception of the aforementioned palace and a couple other buildings, the area of city districts (sestieri) Prè, Molo and Madalena, which had swaths demolished in the 1950s and 1960s, wasn't a serious problem for the city for which the Sopraelevata construction provided the opportunity to demolish in part, opening new land near the waterfront where they later build the Aquarium for instance?
> 
> That area was full of late 18th to mid 19th century squarlor. With some architectural gems that were preserved and cleaned up of their late appendages... but that is way off topic.
> 
> Matter of fact is that several Italian cities had new boulevards and roads widened in the 2nd half of 18th century but Genova escaped that process in the 'centro storico'. Even Rome had some new big boulevards carved out of areas with shabby houses and nondescript 1780-1840 buildings.


I do believe that in 2018 Sopraelevata and many other roads like that in basically every city in the world served its purpose, and has to be demolished asap.

There are now more modern techniques to build bridges/tunnels/roads that also care about what's around them.

The same I believe is the case for some famous roads built in the 20s in Rome, like Via della Conciliazione and Via dei Fori Imperiali (I do not know any boulevard widened Paris-style in Rome, but I might be wrong. All the avenues that are in the city now were built like they are now). They were useful, they served their purpose but now there is no more need for them.

E.g. Via dei Fori Imperiali should be demolished to build the biggest archeological area in the world: there is no need for a 30m-wide road for buses and cycles only. 

In Genova the Sopraelevata should be demolished and the tunnel should be built. That should be priority number 1 to actually move the city forward from a very heavy industry past that doesn't exist any more to a more dynamic, touristic and people-friendly city.

At least in the Porto Vecchio - Caricamento - Darsena - Principe area.


----------



## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> As a matter of fact there is, it's an immersed tunnel under the bay. Every now and then the idea resurfaces, I think at some point a project was drafted, or at least a feasibility study. Now it's on hold but who knows.


I like the idea of an immersed tunnel surfacing....


----------



## g.spinoza

Some pictures of tunnel Santa Lucia (~7500 m), currently in construction on the A1 north of Florence, which will replace current A1 in the southbound direction:


----------



## g.spinoza

After tests and checks, the A21 overpass involved in the bad accident on 2 January has been judged "unsafe" and must be demolished and rebuilt.

Next 14 February the new concessionaire, Autovie Padane, will take over from Centropadane and works can commence.
http://brescia.corriere.it/notizie/...re-339afc8a-0660-11e8-8b64-d2626c604009.shtml



legolego said:


> Dramatic accident on A21 Highway involved one TIR , transporting fuel and another car. Totally 6 deaths hno:


----------



## legolego

Yuri S Andrade said:


> Is there any plan to replace Genoa's elevated highway? I googled and found nothing about it, at least in English.





g.spinoza said:


> As a matter of fact there is, it's an immersed tunnel under the bay. Every now and then the idea resurfaces, I think at some point a project was drafted, or at least a feasibility study. Now it's on hold but who knows.





Eddard Stark said:


> Unfortunately it’s just a vague idea with no project behind


here is the Related section in the Italian Forum, about the idea/projects related to the demolition of the "sopraelevata" (at least the mid part of fit in the centre of the town)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1584200&highlight=genova

here is an old representation of the " Tunnel Sub-portuale" (year:2005 )


----------



## legolego

*Update:* on the 20th December 2017, was launched a public tender regarding the "Updating of prelimary project" about the Tunnel Sub-Portuale

...so in some decades we'll see something...maybe


----------



## brick84

MichiH said:


> Is there any news when the remaining sections are expected to be opened?


They guess to complete the works within 2018.


----------



## brick84

*A19 Palermo-Catania*

_from "zona industriale Dittaino (Enna)" to "Gerbini" (Catania)
_


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> Some pictures of tunnel Santa Lucia (~7500 m), currently in construction on the A1 north of Florence, which will replace current A1 in the southbound direction:


Interesting, I wasn't aware that the final stage of the Bologna - Firenze upgrade required so much tunneling yet. 

According to Open Street Map, the southbound carriageway will actually run east of the northbound carriageways, so on the 'wrong' side of the motorway. But apparently that is mostly in tunnels.


----------



## mistikos

SS18 Tirrena Inferiore, from Falerna to Pizzo:


----------



## g.spinoza

In order to carry on the doubling of SS 96, a 12-m, 800-ton 12th/14th century tower had to be moved 32 m. 
This is the first time in Italy that a protected site had to be moved.
The process was done in 24 hours at 1.3 m per hour. The tower was harnessed, pushed up with hydraulic jacks then pushed on rails.

The entire process costed 1.5 M€.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*SS16 Molfetta*

Two new interchanges for SS16 at Molfetta open to traffic tomorrow. 

Evidently these works were started a very long time ago. High-resolution imagery in Google Earth dating back to 2009 shows overgrown embankments. Low resolution imagery shows some earthworks as far back as 1988, but I'm not sure how reliable this older base imagery is, some years look exactly the same.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

italystf said:


> In 1980 they closed the middle lane, making it an 1+1 road until the 2nd carriaggeway opened.


More recently, during the 2nd carriaggeway construction, a system to switch from 1 to 2 lanes according the traffic load was created


----------



## italystf

GENIUS LOCI said:


> More recently, during the 2nd carriaggeway construction, a system to switch from 1 to 2 lanes according the traffic load was created


http://www.repubblica.it/2005/c/motori/marzo05/evitacode/evitacode.html

This photo is from 2005, when one carriaggeway was temporarily closed for renovation. The 2nd carriaggeway was completed all the way in 2001.


----------



## g.spinoza

Two stretches of the new carriageway of SS 76 (part of project Quadrilatero in central Italy) are going to open tonight in two-way configuration in order to begin the adaptation of the current road to be one-way only.

The two stretches total 7 km in length, are located between Serra San Quirico and Albacina, and feature the longest tunnel in the road (Gola della Rossa, 3766 m).

The definitive opening of the whole infrastructure has been postponed to end 2018.

http://www.radiogold.tv/?p=32003
http://www.perugiatoday.it/foto/cro...-lunga-dell-intero-progetto-quadrilatero.html


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Two new interchanges for SS16 at Molfetta open to traffic tomorrow.
> 
> Evidently these works were started a very long time ago. High-resolution imagery in Google Earth dating back to 2009 shows overgrown embankments. Low resolution imagery shows some earthworks as far back as 1988, but I'm not sure how reliable this older base imagery is, some years look exactly the same.





















http://www.stradeanas.it/it/puglia-...aste-di-collegamento-tra-la-strada-statale-16


----------



## g.spinoza

Southern extension of A22 "del Brennero" is another step closer to become reality. Last Friday an amendment to the concession act was approved, so now the project financed works can really start.
The 6.5-km stretch will connect the industrial town of Sassuolo to the A22 and A1 near Campogalliano, but there are also other roads involved for a total of 25.5 km. Total cost is 514 M€, works must start before May 2018 and last 4 years.
There are no other plans for further extension of A22 southwards, so it's not going to be another trans-Apennines motorway like A1 or A15.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Southern extension of A22 "del Brennero" is another step closer to become reality. Last Friday an amendment to the concession act was approved, so now the project financed works can really start.
> The 6.5-km stretch will connect the industrial town of Sassuolo to the A22 and A1 near Campogalliano, but there are also other roads involved for a total of 25.5 km. Total cost is 514 M€, works must start before May 2018 and last 4 years.
> There are no other plans for further extension of A22 southwards, so it's not going to be another trans-Apennines motorway like A1 or A15.


Around 10-15 years ago there was a discussion for a Modena-Lucca motorway, but nothing happened since.


----------



## brick84

*Highway Catania-Siracusa*

The lighting of tunnel has been finally replaced.

And new "San Demetrio-Autogrill" pump station is completed.





Roberto.palermo said:


> Alcune immagini dell'area di servizio San Demetrio. Ancora chiuso il nuovo Autogrill. Eppure i lavori sembrano più che conclusi!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Più avanti, una piacevole sorpresa: tutte le gallerie sono perfettamente illuminate!
> Ecco la Serena:
> 
> 
> La Cozzo Battaglia:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La Maganuco:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La San Fratello:


----------



## italystf

Viaduct over Lao river on A2, Calabria


----------



## keber

Isn't that viaduct Italia, the highest one?


----------



## g.spinoza

Uppsala said:


> If Parma has number 45, its more easy to know where you are and how long it is before you come to Parma. If you see number 41, you know it's 4 more before you are in Parma with numer 45.
> 
> Maybe the Italian state think it's to expensive to introduce exitnumers on the Italian motorways?
> 
> They can complement the signs on the motorways with a sign that look like the sign here. Thats what they did in Switzerland and Sweden.
> 
> But maybe noone want to pay for it? Maybe thats the reason?


I agree it's an improvement, but a very minor one, so I think Italy do not want to spend money on updating all the signs for that.

Do you want to know how much the Italian state cares about road signs? Until 1990, A1 Milan-Naples was two different motorways: A1 Milan-Rome and A2 Rome-Naples. Well, in the area south of Rome, you can still find directional signs to the A2 Rome-Naples. After 30 years.



pccvspw999 said:


> What di You think was the reason that exit numbering has been introduced in many contries, and also on some motorways here in Italy? It wasn’t certainly because of popular uprisings, don’t You agree? So, what else?


Just the fact that it was introduced in other countries it doesn't automatically make it useful.
Think of all the "Ausfahrt" signs on German motorways: it would be much more useful to show the town, not the generic "Exit" sign.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Think of all the "Ausfahrt" signs on German motorways: it would be much more useful to show the town, not the generic "Exit" sign.


On the exit itself nothing should be signposted, because when you read it it's already too late to choose your direction safely.


----------



## Uppsala

g.spinoza said:


> I agree it's an improvement, but a very minor one, so I think Italy do not want to spend money on updating all the signs for that.
> 
> Do you want to know how much the Italian state cares about road signs? Until 1990, A1 Milan-Naples was two different motorways: A1 Milan-Rome and A2 Rome-Naples. Well, in the area south of Rome, you can still find directional signs to the A2 Rome-Naples. After 30 years.
> 
> 
> 
> Just the fact that it was introduced in other countries it doesn't automatically make it useful.
> Think of all the "Ausfahrt" signs on German motorways: it would be much more useful to show the town, not the generic "Exit" sign.




Yes i can understand the Italian state are not so interested to update the signs.

I think thats the answer why they dont have exitnumbers at the Italian motorways. I think they should have it, but they have not. The Italian state think this is to expensive.


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> I agree it's an improvement, but a very minor one, so I think Italy do not want to spend money on updating all the signs for that.
> 
> Do you want to know how much the Italian state cares about road signs? Until 1990, A1 Milan-Naples was two different motorways: A1 Milan-Rome and A2 Rome-Naples. Well, in the area south of Rome, you can still find directional signs to the A2 Rome-Naples. After years


And You can find also traffic lights working with the old sequence after 26 years it was changed. All that is simply ridiculous.


> Just the fact that it was introduced in other countries it doesn't automatically make it useful.


No, but it makes more reasonable that it is useful.


> Think of all the "Ausfahrt" signs on German motorways: it would be much more useful to show the town, not the generic "Exit" sign.


Typical reasoning of someone who don’t have a clue what road safety is. Not Your fault, but is revealing of a general way of thinking.


----------



## pccvspw999

Uppsala said:


> Yes i can understand the Italian state are not so interested to update the signs.
> 
> I think thats the answer why they dont have exitnumbers at the Italian motorways. I think they should have it, but they have not. The Italian state think this is to expensive.


No, the italian state doesn’t think at all, and is proud of this.
(Concerns roads signeage and safety and mantainance)


----------



## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> Typical reasoning of someone who don’t have a clue what road safety is. Not Your fault, but is revealing of a general way of thinking.


Please, enlighten me. Why should it be safer to not have the name of the exit on the sign?


----------



## Eddard Stark

I think you can get it by yourself Spinoza


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> I agree it's an improvement, but a very minor one, so I think Italy do not want to spend money on updating all the signs for that.


They can use stickers or a tab, they don't have to replace the entire sign to introduce exit numbering.

Italy is a bit of an outlier with a lack of exit numbering, though I must admit I don't really use exit numbering. Like Germany, exit names are very well-known in the Netherlands. 

Italian exit density is not very high on most of the autostrade, which reduces the need for exit numbering, compared to say, Spain, which has a very high exit density.


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> Please, enlighten me. Why should it be safer to not have the name of the exit on the sign?


As Eddard Stark suggests, Your able to get it by yourself. Just one hint:
You’ve driven to Potsdam recently, correct? So, what was necessary, after You crossed the italian-swiss border, in order to get the right exit?


----------



## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> As Eddard Stark suggests, Your able to get it by yourself.


Evidently, since I asked, I wasn't.



> You’ve driven to Potsdam recently, correct? So, what was necessary, after You crossed the italian-swiss border, in order to get the right exit?


No, because I had satnav. If I hadn't, after so many km, who knows, maybe. In any case, numbers, which you all deem so important, weren't necessary either.

Let me draw a picture for you. You are driving in Germany, a foreing country, you don't know the language, all you know is have to exit to Oberpfaffenhofen. You are driving at speed, because you are allowed to, and you read sign but you don't have the time to read it fully. All you get is "...pfaffenhofen". After few hundred meters, there's the exit, so you think "now I slow down and have the chance to read the name and see if that's the right one", but all you read is "Ausfahrt".

So I ask you, again: how is writing "Oberpfaffenhofen" on a damn sign at the exit unsafe.


----------



## sponge_bob

Uppsala said:


> Yes i can understand the Italian state are not so interested to update the signs.


Excellent. So that means it will cost very little in reality to bring back the A3 Motorway that was abolished by that crook Renzi around 2 years back.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Evidently, since I asked, I wasn't.
> 
> 
> 
> No, because I had satnav. If I hadn't, after so many km, who knows, maybe. In any case, numbers, which you all deem so important, weren't necessary either.
> 
> Let me draw a picture for you. You are driving in Germany, a foreing country, you don't know the language, all you know is have to exit to Oberpfaffenhofen. You are driving at speed, because you are allowed to, and you read sign but you don't have the time to read it fully. All you get is "...pfaffenhofen". After few hundred meters, there's the exit, so you think "now I slow down and have the chance to read the name and see if that's the right one", but all you read is "Ausfahrt".
> 
> So I ask you, again: how is writing "Oberpfaffenhofen" on a damn sign at the exit unsafe.


If you signpost the exit, for example, 1000, 500, and 100 meters before, you reduce the chances to miss it without putting the arrow on the exit itself, that may be interpreted as "you're still on time to change lane", while in reality is too late.


----------



## italystf

sponge_bob said:


> Excellent. So that means it will cost very little in reality to bring back the A3 Motorway that was abolished by that crook Renzi around 2 years back.


Why should we? I think A2 is not a problem.


----------



## sponge_bob

italystf said:


> ] I think A2 is not a problem.


Because it is still not upgraded to Motorway standard is it??? Renzi abolished the last 10km and abandoned 3 sections as is. 

And he went from a complete A2 to an incomplete A2, if the old A2 makes a comeback it will be completely motorway standard.


----------



## Eddard Stark

The A2 being complete or not has nothing to do with the name. Besides, it is as complete as it needs to be and there are much worse motorways in italy than even the old sections of A3.


----------



## italystf

sponge_bob said:


> Because it is still not upgraded to Motorway standard is it??? Renzi abolished the last 10km and abandoned 3 sections as is.
> 
> And he went from a complete A2 to an incomplete A2, if the old A2 makes a comeback it will be completely motorway standard.


Those sections will be renovated, although not widened.


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> Evidently, since I asked, I wasn't.


 Don’t be so modest, You almost got it!


> No, because I had satnav. If I hadn't, after so many km, who knows, maybe. In any case, numbers, which you all deem so important, weren't necessary either.


Concerning numbers: I only asked what could have been the reason for many countries to introduce them in their road codex, and the picture You drawed gives the answer. To both issues, indeed.



> Let me draw a picture for you. You are driving in Germany, a foreing country, you don't know the language, all you know is have to exit to Oberpfaffenhofen. You are driving at speed, because you are allowed to, and you read sign but you don't have the time to read it fully. All you get is "...pfaffenhofen". After few hundred meters, there's the exit, so you think "now I slow down and have the chance to read the name and see if that's the right one", but all you read is "Ausfahrt".


Perfect, it’s exactly the way You become an hazard for road safety. Slowing down on a motor way is a dangerous maneuver, anytime. If You need to read on the last sign, You’re already late to decide to take the exit lane. When the exit lane begins You have to have decided what to do. Slowing down (if not in the exit lane, it’s hazardous) and decide at the last moment, often resulting in hasty maneuvers, is the best way to endanger motor way traffic.
Having numbers helps foreigners not to cope with names like “Oberpfaffenhofen” or “Biandrate-Vicolungo”. So they may decide in time to take the next exit.

Sure, having navsat solves everything, until it works!


----------



## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> Perfect, it’s exactly the way You become an hazard for road safety. Slowing down on a motor way is a dangerous maneuver, anytime.


Is it? Then why you have unlimited speed sections and then suddenly 80 km/h in tunnels on constructions zones? People were always braking as hard as they could, from 200 to 80, it was scary as hell. But it's institutionalized.



> If You need to read on the last sign, You’re already late to decide to take the exit lane. When the exit lane begins You have to have decided what to do. Slowing down (if not in the exit lane, it’s hazardous) and decide at the last moment, often resulting in hasty maneuvers, is the best way to endanger motor way traffic.
> Having numbers helps foreigners not to cope with names like “Oberpfaffenhofen” or “Biandrate-Vicolungo”. So they may decide in time to take the next exit.


I simply don't think this is so dangerous.
Having the exit name on the exit itself is just reassuring: it's like having signed "a4 Milan" every now and then when driving on a4 towards Milan: maybe not necessary, because you should already now where you are, but certainly reassuring and harmless.

Sure, having navsat solves everything, until it works![/QUOTE]


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> Is it? Then why you have unlimited speed sections and then suddenly 80 km/h in tunnels on constructions zones? People were always braking as hard as they could, from 200 to 80, it was scary as hell. But it's institutionalized.


It should not be in this way. Speed limits have to be reduced constantly: 120-100-80. Where it’s not done, it’s an attempt to road safety. Anyway, those speed limits are necessary and everybody shall comply. It’s more dangerous (this should be always the reason) not to slow down.
As everyone has to comply, it’s not as dangerous as when only one reduces speed, abruptly for his own, unpredictable (for those who follow) reasons.



> I simply don't think this is so dangerous.


It is not “so” dangerous. It’s just “dangerous”, and furthermore unnecessary. Unnecessary dangers must be avoided anytime.


> Having the exit name on the exit itself is just reassuring: it's like having signed "a4 Milan" every now and then when driving on a4 towards Milan: maybe not necessary, because you should already now where you are, but certainly reassuring and harmless.


No, within the space of the exit lane there is no necessity to reassure anything: decisions have to be taken before, no space for uncertainties.
After distraction, indecision is the most common cause of accidents, yes even more than wrong decisions.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

I've to say that, other than the ringroads and bypasses, A32 have numbered exits, and it's relatively recent.
AFAIK when were buildt, both A1 "del sole" and A4 in the stretch Turin-Milan has exit numbers. I didn't know when they lost their exits numbers


----------



## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> It should not be in this way. Speed limits have to be reduced constantly: 120-100-80. Where it’s not done, it’s an attempt to road safety. Anyway, those speed limits are necessary and everybody shall comply. It’s more dangerous (this should be always the reason) not to slow down.
> As everyone has to comply, it’s not as dangerous as when only one reduces speed, abruptly for his own, unpredictable (for those who follow) reasons.


Have you ever driven on the Autobahn? Try braking from 180 to 120, let's see if it's a speed reduction or a hard brake...



> It is not “so” dangerous. It’s just “dangerous”, and furthermore unnecessary. Unnecessary dangers must be avoided anytime.


So are trucks overtaking themselves: should it be banned?
So is going 80 on the motorway, but by law you can. Should it be banned?
I think those are much more dangerous.



> No, within the space of the exit lane there is no necessity to reassure anything: decisions have to be taken before, no space for uncertainties.
> After distraction, indecision is the most common cause of accidents, yes even more than wrong decisions.


Until you show me some scientific papers stating that having the name on the sign is more dangerous, it's still your thoughts against mine:, for now, I will still think that it isn't.


----------



## g.spinoza

Autobahn-mann said:


> AFAIK when were buildt, both A1 "del sole" and A4 in the stretch Turin-Milan has exit numbers. I didn't know when they lost their exits numbers


I didn't know that. Are you sure?


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> Have you ever driven on the Autobahn? Try braking from 180 to 120, let's see if it's a speed reduction or a hard brake...


 That's why the recomended speed in Germany is 130km/h. If You're driving faster it is Your concern not to endanger other cars, and if You do, You'll pay for it. Don't forget: exeeding 130km/h in Germany puts all the blame on You, if something goes wrong.


> So are trucks overtaking themselves: should it be banned?
> So is going 80 on the motorway, but by law you can. Should it be banned?
> I think those are much more dangerous.


Maybe these are more dangerous, but cannot be avoided.



> Until you show me some scientific papers stating that having the name on the sign is more dangerous, it's still your thoughts against mine:, for now, I will still think that it isn't.


That's why I wrote:"...don’t have a clue what road safety is". I don't have to state scientific papers, it's just a matter of fact if You comply to the driving rules. And those rules have a proper origin. Also in the italian codex it is compulsory to take exit lanes at their very begining, so You have to be prepared. If You are prepared, than the exit name at the point has no matter to exist anyway.


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## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> That's why the recomended speed in Germany is 130km/h. If You're driving faster it is Your concern not to endanger other cars, and if You do, You'll pay for it. Don't forget: exeeding 130km/h in Germany puts all the blame on You, if something goes wrong.


I knew that driving over 130 puts _some blame on you, not all.




Maybe these are more dangerous, but cannot be avoided.

Click to expand...

??????
Of course they can be avoided.




That's why I wrote:"...don’t have a clue what road safety is". I don't have to state scientific papers,

Click to expand...

Pity. This basically means it's all out of your thought. Which I respect, but it really doesn't concern me.




it's just a matter of fact if You comply to the driving rules. And those rules have a proper origin.

Click to expand...

What does putting an indication sign or not have to do with complying to the rules? You seem very confused, sir.




Also in the italian codex it is compulsory to take exit lanes at their very begining, so You have to be prepared. If You are prepared, than the exit name at the point has no matter to exist anyway.

Click to expand...

Having exit names on the signs does NOT mean taking the exit at the last moment, nor hard braking to it.


EDIT: Ok, I'll stop here. I won't reply to other statements on the subject. Nobody is interested in our little quarrel. I won't convince you, you won't convince me._


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## Autobahn-mann

g.spinoza said:


> I didn't know that. Are you sure?


About Turin-Milan stretches of A4 was in the 30-ies, and I've seen on an historic map (so isn't sure if was reported also on road signs).
About "Autosole" I've seen it both on historic publications and I remember some old photos of road signs with exit numbers. I'll post that images when will found them.


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## Autobahn-mann

For now, I've found this. It's from A1 _Autostrada del sole_, Appennine stretch in 1961:


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## g.spinoza

Thanks for your effort in finding the pic. This is very interesting.

I guess the system becomes impractical when a lot of new interchanges are opened, so you will find yourself with 15a, 15b, 15c and so on...

Maybe the spanish system is better, where the interchange takes the number after the km... it only gets issues when a motorway stretch length is extended or reduced.


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## Uppsala

Autobahn-mann said:


> For now, I've found this. It's from A1 _Autostrada del sole_, Appennine stretch in 1961:





Interesting! Italy had some exitnumbers 1961. Thats very early. Maybe even earlier than the UK. But only a few motorways whith that?

Had they taken off exitnumers from some motorways. There are only at some motorways around some cities like Roma and Milano now with that.

Another interesting thing. The sign for the exitnumber has no symbol. Just the text Uscita 15. They looks similar to what they still have at the motorways around Roma and Milano. And also the other signs at the picture looks simuilar to the signs today. So thats the reason why i think the signs at the motorways in Italy looks old. So they never update the signs in Italy?

I think they could complete the siugns in Italy with modern european sings for exitnumbers. They can do like Switzerland and Sweden.

But it loooks like they never going to do this in Italy?


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## Autobahn-mann

Like I've just said before, in Italy exits are usually numbered on ringroad and bypasses, so also in motorways with that function.
I've said that exit number were probably in A4 (stretch Turin-Milan) in the 30ies, and on A1 Autostrada del Sole in the early years (50ies-60ies).

Signs on motorways were changed in the time, but was similar. Were changed in ending 50ies, ending 60ies (1968-1969), an upgrade in 1971, and changed a little again in 1990-1992 with the New Highway Code.


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## Uppsala

Autobahn-mann said:


> Like I've just said before, in Italy exits are usually numbered on ringroad and bypasses, so also in motorways with that function.
> I've said that exit number were probably in A4 (stretch Turin-Milan) in the 30ies, and on A1 Autostrada del Sole in the early years (50ies-60ies).
> 
> Signs on motorways were changed in the time, but was similar. Were changed in ending 50ies, ending 60ies (1968-1969), an upgrade in 1971, and changed a little again in 1990-1992 with the New Highway Code.



Thank you! Thats the reason why the signs in Italy looks old.

And update them with exitnumber in European style is something i can just forget?


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## DrOzda

Yesterday i was driving from Figline Valdarno to Rimini Airport via A1, SS73 . famous SS3bis and A14.
SS3bis looks like after zombie apocalypse , first of all there is bypass via SP77 driving in direction to Cesena - estacade just by Lake Montedoglio is open in half. Surface condition on this road is terrible and more than quarter of its length is narrowed to one left lane. Some tunnels are open in both directions only and saw one near San Piero in Bagno under rebuild ... i was thinking about taking some photos but was scared to take my hand of steering wheel  Anyway i was driving SS3bis from 6 to 7 AM and later trucks went from parkings so was real pain to overtake them .... If anybody in Poland thinks that our road sucks i'll kindly invite him to this road 
Saw only one short part near Cesena under complete rebuilt - all layers to the ground were removed , i wonder if this road will be drivable to it's technical death then closed forever ....


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## italystf

DrOzda said:


> Yesterday i was driving from Figline Valdarno to Rimini Airport via A1, SS73 . famous SS3bis and A14.
> SS3bis looks like after zombie apocalypse , first of all there is bypass via SP77 driving in direction to Cesena - estacade just by Lake Montedoglio is open in half. Surface condition on this road is terrible and more than quarter of its length is narrowed to one left lane. Some tunnels are open in both directions only and saw one near San Piero in Bagno under rebuild ... i was thinking about taking some photos but was scared to take my hand of steering wheel  Anyway i was driving SS3bis from 6 to 7 AM and later trucks went from parkings so was real pain to overtake them .... If anybody in Poland thinks that our road sucks i'll kindly invite him to this road
> Saw only one short part near Cesena under complete rebuilt - all layers to the ground were removed , i'll wonder if this road will be drivable to it's technical death then closed forever ....


I remember that SS3bis had bad pavement even 8 years ago, today it must be even worse. Generally, roads managed by ANAS are in worse conditions than tolled motorways or road maintained by regions or provinces.
SS434 from Verona to Rovigo is in terrible shape too.


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## Autobahn-mann

Uppsala said:


> Thank you! Thats the reason why the signs in Italy looks old.


You're welcome! The indication signs were upgraded with "old" Highway Code between 1979 and 1981, so, with the New Highway Code of 1990-1992 were changed mostly warning and regulatory signs (indication signs have only minimal simple changes).




Uppsala said:


> And update them with exitnumber in European style is something i can just forget?



For me, it depends from willingness of road managing bodies. So nothing at national level. You can see on ringroad and bypasses and recently on A32 (check out).


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## Autobahn-mann

italystf said:


> [...]
> SS434 from Verona to Rovigo is in terrible shape too.


AFAIK, I remember that in the stretch between A31 and A13 ICs was *barely* enogh arranged and re-asphalted.


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## Uppsala

Autobahn-mann said:


> For now, I've found this. It's from A1 _Autostrada del sole_, Appennine stretch in 1961:



Back to this picture again:

This is interesting. The signs on this motorway looks so very similar to the signs they are using on the Italian motorways today. And maybe thats one of the reasons I think the signs on Italian motorways looks old now. Lot of things are still the same today 

But what was the colour of the signs in 1961? Now they are green, like for example, Sweden, Switzerland, Serbia or Croatia. But what was the colour in 1961? I think they looks very dark blue or maybe black. Is that true? In Sweden it was before 1978 a very dark blue colour on the sign. They changed in 1978. But what about Italy? Did they had a dark blue there too? And then changed in 1970s?


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## italystf

Uppsala said:


> Back to this picture again:
> 
> This is interesting. The signs on this motorway looks so very similar to the signs they are using on the Italian motorways today. And maybe thats one of the reasons I think the signs on Italian motorways looks old now. Lot of things are still the same today
> 
> But what was the colour of the signs in 1961? Now they are green, like for example, Sweden, Switzerland, Serbia or Croatia. But what was the colour in 1961? I think they looks very dark blue or maybe black. Is that true? In Sweden it was before 1978 a very dark blue colour on the sign. They changed in 1978. But what about Italy? Did they had a dark blue there too? And then changed in 1970s?


In Italy motorway signs were blue until 1969.


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## g.spinoza

I don't know about motorway, but in normal roads they were dark blue, darker than current blue ones.


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## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> I don't know about motorway, but in normal roads they were dark blue, darker than current blue ones.


Initially it was the same for motorways.


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## Uppsala

^^









This is old signs from Sweden. They are from 1958-1978. Did the old Italian have the same colour?










And here.










And here.

Did they in Italy have this colur like Sweden had. In Sweden this was changed in 1978, but what year did then changed in Italy?


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## MichiH

italystf said:


> SS534 in Italy should open in April.


It seems to be delayed. I found this news article from late March: "Calabria and the Calabrians have a problem called Anas".


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## g.spinoza

Uppsala said:


> ^^
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is old signs from Sweden. They are from 1958-1978. Did the old Italian have the same colour?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here.
> 
> Did they in Italy have this colur like Sweden had. In Sweden this was changed in 1978, but what year did then changed in Italy?


More or less the same color.


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## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> It seems to be delayed. I found this news article from late March: "Calabria and the Calabrians have a problem called Anas".


Calabria has a lot more important problems than ANAS...


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## Uppsala

g.spinoza said:


> More or less the same color.



Thank you!

When did they started with green signs for motorways in Italy? In Sweden they changed from this dark blue to green in 1978.

Did they changed to green in Italy in 1969? I think they maybe were much earlier with that in Italy than Sweden.


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## Autobahn-mann

italystf said:


> In Italy motorway signs were blue until 1969.





Uppsala said:


> Back to this picture again [...]
> 
> But what was the colour of the signs in 1961? [...] I think they looks very dark blue or maybe black. Is that true? [...] But what about Italy? Did they had a dark blue there too? And then changed in 1970s?





g.spinoza said:


> I don't know about motorway, but in normal roads they were dark blue, darker than current blue ones.


I confirm. Until December 20th, 1969, Italy didn't have specific road sign for motorways, so using normal indication signs (dark blue).
Only with a Ministerial Circular (n. 9540, that day) were introduced dedicated green signs, after an experimental phase from April 20th, 1968 (Ministerial circular 2810).

I think it was inspired from american-style...


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## Uppsala

Autobahn-mann said:


> I confirm. Until December 20th, 1969, Italy didn't have specific road sign for motorways, so using normal indication signs (dark blue).
> Only with a Ministerial Circular (n. 9540, that day) were introduced dedicated green signs, after an experimental phase from April 20th, 1968 (Ministerial circular 2810).
> 
> I think it was inspired from american-style...



Interesting! Maybe Italy was the first in Europe with green signs?

Dark blue was standard in Italy in 1960s. Same in Sweden and also in Yugoslavia. Maybe som more countries in Europe had dark blue in that time? I think Greece had it?


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## Autobahn-mann

In Germany were blue since late 30ies...


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## Uppsala

Autobahn-mann said:


> In Germany were blue since late 30ies...



Yes, but not that dark like Italy, Sweden and Yugoslavia.


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## italystf

A4-A50 junction near Milan. Circa 1968-1970.
Directional signs on motorway were blue, but motorways numbers were already green.



Italbeton said:


>


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## Autobahn-mann

^^ At the beginning, also me was thinking that was A4-A50 Junction, but instead, and in reality, it's A8-A50 Junction!
Look at indications: A4 is indicated in direction Venice straight, and A4 Turin on right.


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## italystf

A long (100+ km section) of SS131 in Sardinia will be upgraded to expressway standards by removing all at-grade junctions and replacing them with interchanges.
The section stretches between Paulilatino (km 108.3) and Sassari (km 209.5).
Works should be completed by 2020.

http://www.lanuovasardegna.it/regio...iere-per-quasi-due-anni-1.16808775?refresh_ce

SS131 is the most important road in Sardinia, connecting Cagliari in the south with Porto Torres in the north. Some sections have already expressway standards.


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## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> A long (100+ km section) of SS131 in Sardinia will be upgraded to expressway standards by removing all at-grade junctions and replacing them with interchanges.
> The section stretches between Paulilatino (km 108.3) and Sassari (km 209.5).
> Works should be completed by 2020.
> 
> http://www.lanuovasardegna.it/regio...iere-per-quasi-due-anni-1.16808775?refresh_ce
> 
> SS131 is the most important road in Sardinia, connecting Cagliari in the south with Porto Torres in the north. Some sections have already expressway standards.


This is important. Highways with at-grade junctions (no roundabouts) and high design speed are the most dangerous non-urban type of roads (only multi-lane 'arterials' are more dangerous than that).


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## g.spinoza

Other problems for the Quadrilatero project in Central Italy.

The only works left to do are on two stretches of SS76: Cancelli di Fabriano-Fossato (in advanced stage, may be completed after the summer) and Albacina-Serra San Quirico. In the latter, Astaldi took over the works after a long stop due to the defaults, first of Btp, then of Impresa. Astaldi claims there are no risks of other stops, but up to 40 workers could be laid off and they cannot possibly meet the latest deadline of early 2019. According to Astaldi, still 174 M€ worth of construction are left.

http://www.centropagina.it/attualit...del-cantiere-rischio-licenziamento-40-operai/


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## brick84

*SS 106 "Jonica" - Calabria*

_3° Megalotto_


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## g.spinoza

*17 March 2018*

Aerial picture of works for A15 "TiBre" extension near Parma:










http://parma.repubblica.it/cronaca/...bre_a15-a22_uno_scatto_dall_alto-191526201/1/


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## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> Aerial picture of works for A15 "TiBre" extension near Parma:
> 
> http://parma.repubblica.it/cronaca/...bre_a15-a22_uno_scatto_dall_alto-191526201/1/


Apertura prevista nel 2019.

-->

Opening scheduled for 2019.


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## ChrisZwolle

Is there anything new related to roads in the coalition agreement?


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## g.spinoza

I didn't read the agreement, but there is basically nothing in the news. Only some hints at high speed railways like Turin-Lyon and Milan-Genoa...


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## italystf

One of the two parties of the cohalition (M5S) is strongly anti-infrastructures, wile the other (Lega) is generally in favour.

M5S protests against several projects, like the new bypass of Genoa, Pedemontana Lombarda, Pedemontana Veneta, Autostrada della Valtrompia and some rail and pipeline infrastructure.

https://www.panorama.it/economia/in...andi-opere-su-cui-lega-e-m5s-cercano-lintesa/


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## italystf

The breakthrough of the 1.5-km Sant'Augusta tunnel (SS51, Vittorio Veneto bypass) has been completed on May 17.



mr. jaco said:


> «Anas (società del Gruppo FS Italiane) comunica che è stato abbattuto oggi l’ultimo diaframma di roccia della galleria Santa Augusta. Si tratta di uno scavo di circa 1,5 km e costituisce l’opera principale dei lavori della Variante di Vittorio Veneto (Tangenziale Est), nell’ambito degli interventi del 1° Stralcio La Sega-Rindola per il progetto di collegamento La Sega-Ospedale, del valore complessivo di quasi 65 milioni di euro.
> 
> Oggi gli ultimi colpi di martello meccanico da parte delle maestranze e dei tecnici del Consorzio Stabile Eureca, l’impresa appaltatrice, sul diaframma all’incontro delle gallerie nord e sud, di collegamento fra località La Sega, al lato nord, e Rindola, al lato sud. La realizzazione del traforo, la cui sezione ha una superficie media di scavo di 175 metri quadrati e un diametro di 15 metri, ha richiesto un impegno di circa 1000 giorni di lavoro. Lo scavo del tunnel si addentra nel sottosuolo ad una profondità compresa fra i 6 metri – in corrispondenza dell’imbocco a sud – fino ad un massimo di 200 metri.
> 
> Nel progetto del 1° Stralcio è inoltre prevista la realizzazione di 3 rotatorie di circa 45 metri di diametro, un ponte sul fiume Meschio e un tratto di strada urbana. Di quest’ultima, della lunghezza di 250 metri, è in corso l’iter autorizzativo che renderà funzionale lo stralcio con l’innesto su via Carso. Nel complesso le opere costituiranno con il traforo, il cui scavo è stato ultimato oggi, l’asse di Variante della statale 51 per una lunghezza totale di 2,05 km».
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.stradeanas.it/it/veneto-...ia-di-santa-augusta-nell’ambito-dei-lavori-di


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## italystf

Plan for a 4-lanes road between A14 and Bari port, to remove truck traffic from the city.

http://www.ilnautilus.it/wp-content/Documenti/Camionale PPT.pdf


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## g.spinoza

New average speed cameras (called SICVE PM) are going to be activated next July. This article explains the technological difference between this system and the previous one (Safety Tutor) which has been discontinued due to patent infringement.

While the Safety Tutor system was based on OCR technology (camera reads plate, converts symbols into characters through OCR then calculates average speed of the car between two portals), the new system just matches the features of the plate as photographed by the two portals, without converting it into alpha-numeric characters, and calculates average speed. They claim its efficiency is higher.


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## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> Spectacular. Though it looks more like a footpath than a bike path from a Dutch perspective.


Imagine how much would it cost to construct it with Dutch standards


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## pccvspw999

Dutch can’t even conceive such a path due to lack of necessary, geological premises. So, who cares about “dutch standards?:cheers:


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## ChrisZwolle

Ouch, did you hurt your feelings?


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## pccvspw999

PHP:







ChrisZwolle said:


> Ouch, did you hurt your feelings?


No, not at all. It’s just a metter of fact. A nation flat as a pool-table can give itself more generous standards, than otherones with geomorphical issues.
BTW: shall the path get the success what I imagine it deserves, there will be soon problems with traffic jams.


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## MattiG

pccvspw999 said:


> BTW: shall the path get the success what I imagine it deserves, there will be soon problems with traffic jams.


Because of not meeting Dutch standards?


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## pccvspw999

^^ Because dutches and germans will use it extensively, even if it’s not complying to their standards


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## Shenkey

g.spinoza said:


> First pictures of first stretch (Limone-Riva) of Lake Garda cycleway:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opening next 14th July
> 
> http://milano.repubblica.it/cronaca...i-198978768/1/?ref=RHRD-BS-I0-C6-P2-S2.6-T1#1


amazing


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## brick84

*A19 Palermo-Catania*

from Palermo to Catania, some pics:











works on "Himera" viaduct, collapsed two years ago:








after:


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## italystf

A4 Venice - Trieste, construction of the new bridge over Tagliamento river (2x3 lanes + shoulders, lenght 1.5 km)









https://www.facebook.com/piccolodit...41809745380/10160660277055381/?type=3&theater


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## keber

But much has been done already since that photo has been taken. I drove there last time in beginning of April and a shorter part of viaduct was already standing.


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## italystf

keber said:


> But much has been done already since that photo has been taken. I drove there last time in beginning of April and a shorter part of viaduct was already standing.


Now approx. 2/3 of the viaduct lenght is completed. Maybe there is an already constructed part behind the photographer.


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## keber

Probably not, as above photo was taken in middle of winter 

In January there were just some pillars standing and they were preparing the mammoth crane for delivering prefabricated deck pieces. Around Easter first two (or three, I don't remember well) spans have been in progress and numerous deck pieces were waiting montage. If 2/3 are completed by now that means that construction with prefabricated short concrete box pieces is really efficient and fast although it needs lengthy preparations.


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## italystf

keber said:


> Probably not, as above photo was taken in middle of winter
> 
> In January there were just some pillars standing and they were preparing the mammoth crane for delivering prefabricated deck pieces. Around Easter first two (or three, I don't remember well) spans have been in progress and numerous deck pieces were waiting montage. If 2/3 are completed by now that means that construction with prefabricated short concrete box pieces is really efficient and fast although it needs lengthy preparations.


Last time I drove there it was in late May or early June (that's quite odd, since I live just 5 km from that bridge, but I don't use the motorway for local trips), and there was already a sizeable portion of the bridge still visible, probably more than half.

Concrete blocks are manifactured on-site, in a temporary factory next to the bridge.


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## x-type

When the works with new bridge started and what is the expected time of construction end?


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## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> When the works with new bridge started and what is the expected time of construction end?


I think works on the bridge began in the first months of 2017 with an expected finish date of 2020, even though President of region Friuli Venezia Giulia recently said it is entirely possible that works ends in 2019.


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## mistikos

*A2 del Mediterraneo - From Altilia to Falerna:*


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## keber

g.spinoza said:


> I think works on the bridge began in the first months of 2017 with an expected finish date of 2020, even though President of region Friuli Venezia Giulia recently said it is entirely possible that works ends in 2019.


With that kind of speed that is really possible. I wonder, will they dismantle the crane after finishing it and assemble it again or just move it somehow to the parallel viaduct?


----------



## Coccodrillo

The junction of A4-A8-A9 throught time: http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=43010 (see also the quoted links)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Google Earth imagery from March 2018 shows construction on A4 along the north side of Milan. Are they widening it to eight lanes?


----------



## pccvspw999

Not exactly. They are windending to arrange 4 lanes for traffic when necessary, using the widened emergency lane. They call it “dynamic lanes”.
Has been done also in Bologna on the A14 around the city.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Aha, the "corsia dinamica" plan. That will surely alleviate the worst of the congestion. I believe it was planned to be implemented some time ago but it was deayed.


----------



## italystf

The urban section of A4 across Milan is a real bottleneck. There's no way to upgrade it to 2x4, due to the many buildings very close to it.


----------



## Suburbanist

That's what A52 is for


----------



## keber

Suburbanist said:


> That's what A52 is for


 Not for transit though - 6-8 km more in direction of Torino with numerous exits and complicated connection to A4 on Torino side. Also there is no signage to help with.


----------



## Suburbanist

keber said:


> Suburbanist said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's what A52 is for
> 
> 
> 
> Not for transit though - 6-8 km more in direction of Torino with numerous exits and complicated connection to A4 on Torino side. Also there is no signage to help with.
Click to expand...

Those extra km more than payoff if A4 is congested and pretty much everyone has some navigation app these days.


----------



## keber

All navigation apps and car navigations follow A4. No road signage shows A52 as possible alternative to A4. West connection to A4 includes at least one roundabout.


----------



## pccvspw999

A52, when it will be complete, is not ment to be an alternative for transit traffic. If it will do so, there will be severe problems at both ends with connection quite underdimensioned.
Anyway it will attract some traffic now flowing into A4 because of lack of alternatives: A8/9<->A4 East, SS35<->A8/9, SS35<->A4 west.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think the idea of A52 is to keep local drivers off A4.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think the idea of A52 is to keep local drivers off A4.


Idea which Ita largely ignored


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, all traffic on A52 is at least not driving on A4.


----------



## x-type

Google Maps indicate A4/A23 closed between Protogruaro and Udine. Is that true and why is that?


----------



## keber

Autovie Venete page says roadworks - probably because of works with widening that stretch.


----------



## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think the idea of A52 is to keep local drivers off A4.




Indeed, it drains traffic that doesn’t go to A4. It already does that (for example most cars coming from the Milano-Meda highway or the Lecco-Monza and going to east Milan take the A52). 

When completed will be a very valid alternative to A4 also to connect east Milan with the highways to the lakes without taking A4.

A4 which will be more focused on through traffic


----------



## x-type

How about A58 to be prolongated to A7? It would take trough traffic for Torino off A4 in Milano.

Also, some kind of motorway Milano - Como would take lots of truck traffic off A4 in Milano (I'd say that most of the truck traffic ends north of Milano in provinces MB, LC and CO).


----------



## MichiH

x-type said:


> How about A58 to be prolongated to A7? It would take trough traffic for Torino off A4 in Milano.


Wasn't A21 built for this purpose?


----------



## Uppsala

brick84 said:


> *A19 Palermo-Catania*
> 
> from Palermo to Catania, some pics:


SOX-lights at this motorway! So there are still a few of those nice and typical motorway-lights on some of the Italian motorways


----------



## x-type

MichiH said:


> Wasn't A21 built for this purpose?


It absolutely was, but it is congested too, and there is never enough circular motorways around Milano.


----------



## keber

A21 congested? Not by my style of congestion. Last time I drove it was last year on a rainy November Monday and it was almost empty especially when comparing to A4 - but even that was not really congested.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I drove a section of A21 only once. It wasn't congested, but full of trucks.

Too bad there aren't any traffic volume data available for Italian motorways.


----------



## x-type

I always had the situation as Chris at A21. Right lane was full of trucks, so cars were driving constantly in left lane. The speed was normal though, 120-140 km/h.


----------



## keber

This is normal in Italy on transit routes. Most their motorways have pretty low passenger traffic comparing to German autobahns - comparing to similar sized cities.


----------



## legolego

ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove a section of A21 only once. It wasn't congested, but full of trucks.
> 
> Too bad there aren't any *traffic volume data *available for Italian motorways.


Here some global data:

http://www.stradeanas.it/it/le-strade/osservatorio-del-traffico/archivio-osservatorio-del-traffico

But i think the best data-source is here (uptaded each 6 months) :

http://www.aiscat.it/pubb_semestral...ubblicazioni&nome_sub=informazioni semestrali

AISCAT is the Association of all italian Highways contractors

For many orher specific info, you have to look for " Traffico Giornaliero Medio "


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Such data is more interesting for investors than traffic engineers. For example: A1 Milano - Bologna carries 289,000 vehicles, but that is the overall usage over a 192 kilometer stretch of motorway, not on individual sections. 

Traffic volumese are usually expressed as an average daily traffic volume on each section of road between an entrance and exit point.


----------



## mistikos

SS280 from Lamezia Terme to Germaneto:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A big wreck on A4 near Bergamo.


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> A big wreck on A4 near Bergamo.


Oh, to that's the reason of big closure of A4 near Bergamo that Google Maps were indicating recently.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^Yes, it is : http://www.milanotoday.it/cronaca/incidente-stradale/a4-capriate-traffico.html


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> If I understood correctly, there are 4 lots:
> 
> 1- Altamura-Toritto 1st section (Melitto area): works are stopped.
> 2- Altamura-Toritto 2nd section: will be delivered in few weeks,
> 3- Altamura Variante: completion date mid-2018
> 4- Toritto-Modugno: very advanced stage of construction.


February 2019 now

https://www.altamuralife.it/notizie/circonvallazione-di-altamura-i-nuovi-lavori-a-meta-strada/


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> Wasn't A21 built for this purpose?


No, not really.

A21 was not conceived to avoid Milan on a East-West route, but to connect Northeast and Northwest to Bologna and the south.
There are much more cars exiting at Piacenza to A1 than those that make the whole route. Except me, I drive Brescia-Turin and viceversa on the A21 at least twice a month...


----------



## MichiH

italystf said:


> SS675 (Italy) should open on 31 August 2018.





MichiH said:


> *SS675:* Monte Romano-East – Cinelli 6.4km (July 2015 to 31st August 2018) – project – map


http://www.umbriaon.it/ss-orte-civitavecchia-tempi-lunghi-e-timori/



> Fra settembre ed ottobre verrà inaugurato un nuovo tratto di 6,4 chilometri, da Monte Romano Est a Cinelli


To be opened anytime in September or October (which usually means the latter).

The construction of the remaining 18km up to A12 is funded (472 million €) but there are "appeals to be discussed next December". Constructions works will take about 5 years. It will minimum take 8 years till completion (2026).

(I hope I got it right )


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A14 at Bologna!


----------



## g.spinoza

It seems that a car-transporter truck hit a tank truck which caught fire, and that the fire spread to some car dealerships nearby which are exploding in sequence.
Also a section of the bridge seems to have collapsed.

https://www.ilrestodelcarlino.it/bologna/cronaca/incendio-incidente-1.4076642

Technically it happened on the tangenziale (RA1), not the main A14 span, but of course both are affected.

There are also some videos of the first explosion:

From 1:21





https://video.repubblica.it/edizion.../311975/312614?ref=RHPPLF-BH-I0-C8-P1-S1.8-T1


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An aerial photo. A bridge section appears to have been collapsed indeed.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A section has indeed collapsed. The fire could have weakened the entire bridge, this could be a long-term impact situation.


----------



## g.spinoza

One confirmed dead, 55 injured (14 seriously)


----------



## cinxxx

^^Where is the spot it happened?
I'm actually planning to visit Bologna in over a weeks time (coming from Verona)...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ It occurred on the west side of Bologna: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.51551,11.28076,389m/data=!3m1!1e3


----------



## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> ^^Where is the spot it happened?
> I'm actually planning to visit Bologna in over a weeks time (coming from Verona)...


Coming from Verona you shouldn't have problems, it happened here:

https://www.google.it/maps/@44.5153927,11.2803883,17.25z?hl=it&authuser=1


----------



## x-type

cinxxx said:


> ^^Where is the spot it happened?
> I'm actually planning to visit Bologna in over a weeks time (coming from Verona)...


Here.

https://www.google.hr/maps/@44.5200...4!1sfNVZ3uqLk2iuWtQz50Ctag!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Footage has been released of the crash, it turns out the tanker truck actually plowed into a traffic jam, apparently at full speed with no attempt to avoid a crash. 






The video has also been posted at the Repubblica website: http://bologna.repubblica.it/cronac...e-203517930/?ref=RHPPTP-BL-I0-C12-P1-S1.12-T1


----------



## g.spinoza

Some people are already blaming the dynamic lane system of that stretch.

As a matter of fact, the dynamic third lane there is very rarely opened, even during high congestion periods. I think I have seen it open once or twice in 10 years.
Maybe if it were open in this occasion, no queue would have formed and the tanker would not have crashed into it.


----------



## MichiH

Accidents like this do happen almost daily in Germany. I think the impact of the crash is so extreme because of the special load and the location with build-up area close to the motorway.


----------



## italystf

Today it was a terrible day on Italian roads. Besides the disaster in Bologna (1 dead and 70 injured):

2 deads on A4 between Padova Ovest and Grisignano: a van full of gas cylinders collided with a truck full of cardboard and both caught fire.
https://www.ilgazzettino.it/nordest...grisignano_morti_scoppio_bombola-3898999.html

12 African immigrants, that were illegally hired to work in agriculture by crime syndicates, died when their van had a head-on collision with a truck. There were 15 people in a van that can only carry 9. Only 3 survived. It happened in Lesina, Apulia. Other 4 immigrants died in another van accident last week in Apulia.
http://www.ansa.it/puglia/notizie/2...rti_e39717b9-aed8-4380-88e9-cb5337a734bd.html


----------



## Wilhem275

Here's a map of Bologna's node. It's mostly a local-express setup, with some bizarre loops to fit tolling stations where local lanes end. 
The affected stretch is in red:










That bit of road is not classified with its own number, it's usually defined as "Ramo Casalecchio" of A14 (ramo = branch).
Its function is to connect A13 (northeast) to A1 (south).

The biggest problem of this node is that N-S and E-W flows have to merge onto a single stretch of A14, roughly between the airport and the A13 junction (Arcoveggio).
This bottleneck caused today's queue.

Till 1989 north-eastern Italy was pretty much the end of the world, so traffic on A13 was moderate.
In retrospective it's really stupid to have two flows overlapping for just a few kilometers.
Best thing would have been to have A13 begin as an extension of Ramo Casalecchio (the part which was nuked today).

Same stupid thing was done 10 years ago with the new bypass of Venice. Same results: congestion and crashes.

TLDR: we design great roads and railways, but we go full retard when it comes to nodes.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Problems for long-term deviation of traffic flows in case the entire bridge is compromised;

* there is no interchange A1/A14 for Firenze > Padova/Rimini flows
* there is no access from SS9 to the Tangenziale

So I'm interested with what of traffic concept they will come up with. SS9 is a four to six lane road but it has a roundabout and single lane ramps to get around the incident site.


----------



## g.spinoza

Newspapers wrote that they are going to reopen at least 2 of the 4 carriageways which were less affected by the fire.


----------



## Insulateshipper

Wilhem275 said:


> Here's a map of Bologna's node. It's mostly a local-express setup, with some bizarre loops to fit tolling stations where local lanes end.
> The affected stretch is in red:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That bit of road is not classified with its own number, it's usually defined as "Ramo Casalecchio" of A14 (ramo = branch).
> Its function is to connect A13 (northeast) to A1 (south).
> 
> The biggest problem of this node is that N-S and E-W flows have to merge onto a single stretch of A14, roughly between the airport and the A13 junction (Arcoveggio).
> This bottleneck caused today's queue.
> 
> Till 1989 north-eastern Italy was pretty much the end of the world, so traffic on A13 was moderate.
> In retrospective it's really stupid to have two flows overlapping for just a few kilometers.
> Best thing would have been to have A13 begin as an extension of Ramo Casalecchio (the part which was nuked today).
> 
> Same stupid thing was done 10 years ago with the new bypass of Venice. Same results: congestion and crashes.
> 
> TLDR: we design great roads and railways, but we go full retard when it comes to nodes.


This dramatic accident is a human fail. The road was in good condition. Traffic are intense around Bologna but it's every day like that.
I was in Puglia this summer by car and during the trip I noticed that a lot of motorway are renovate, enlarged, modern and well maintained.

In Bologna One flow is for local traffic with a lot of exit to different neighbor of Bologna and second flow is for transit traffic. I don't think is a bad system, I travel every years on that stretch and I never feel stressed or disoriented. 

Now the new minister of transport say that it's maybe time to stop that kind of double flow and merge one flow with 5 line to each direction. 

An other project could be to build a tunnel between casalecchio and San Lazzaro in order to reach A1 from firenze directly to A14, to alleviate the traffic on current road and to close the "ring" of Bologna.

I dont believe on a new tengenziale on north bologna because the impact on agriculture and landscape are to big and biggest traffic on the current road is the transit from Milan to Rimini-Ancona so it will not help.


----------



## Wilhem275

ChrisZwolle said:


> * there is no interchange A1/A14 for Firenze > Padova/Rimini flows


Turns out there's an abandoned connector, still available only for northbound traffic (look where A14 stems out of A1, the abandoned trumpet was the earliest Bologna exit on A1).
I read that yesterday they immediately reopened it as a provisional measure.

Anyway, some good news. Just before rush hour, this morning they announced a partial reopening. It seems the southbound local and express viaducts were not cooked too badly, so ASPI rearranged them:
- southbound local lanes are fully operational
- express lanes share the remaining viaduct in a 1+1 setup
- northbound local is permanently shut, detour along Viale De Gasperi as in your map

For express lanes it's not an extra bottleneck, since they reduce to 1+1 anyway at the merge onto A14.

Also note that there's an extra access to the "Tangenziale Nord" for local traffic.
Coming from Viale De Gasperi, you can either proceed onto SS9 or turn right onto SP568; both reach the Tangenziale.

Historical note: SS9 is the ancient Via Aemilia, a straight Roman road which covers the entire region and formed its backbone for almost two millennia :cheers:


----------



## italystf

Recostruction of the collapsed deck should last 3-5 months.


----------



## g.spinoza

This is the current layout of the stretch:










- Left carriageway is westbound tangenziale which is unaffected and open to traffic;
- second carriageway is former westbound autostrada which has been rearranged in a two-lane, two-way layout;
- third and fourth carriageways (eastbound autostrada and tangenziale) are closed.

Basically only local (tangenziale) traffic coming from west heading east has to exit and drive through city streets.


----------



## x-type

This rusty thing, is that the gas tank that exploded?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This must be one of the worst accidents on the European motorways in terms of material damage. 

Other very damaging tanker truck accidents come to mind, such as the Los Alfaques disaster, the Herborn disaster and the Martelange disaster.


----------



## pccvspw999

Could have been even worse: remember Viareggio 2009, where a waggon containing liquid gas derailed, got perforated and gas, dispersed in a wide range, exploded dramatically, killing 32 people and injuring 17.


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> This rusty thing, is that the gas tank that exploded?


Yes.
Somewhat it feels odd that so few casualties have been reported.
The newspapers today are highlighting the speed and effectiveness of the SAR parties, Fire Brigades and Police officers who stopped the traffic and presumably saved more lives.
The top story is one police officer who diverted traffic and pedestrians from below the bridge and was invested by the fireball which melted his fire-proof vest onto his back. He's in the critical list but not in a life-threating situation.


----------



## Wilhem275

ChrisZwolle said:


> This must be one of the worst accidents on the European motorways in terms of material damage.
> 
> Other very damaging tanker truck accidents come to mind, such as the Los Alfaques disaster, the Herborn disaster and the Martelange disaster.


The City of Bologna is estimating damages at 10 million €, of which roughly half just for the two car dealers (dozens of cars are total losses).

This of course does not include the damage to the motorway infrastructure.

It's going to be an interesting insurance bill...


A few months ago, on A21, a tanker was hit by another truck resulting in a severe fire. 6 casualties, and also in that case severe damages to the infrastructure: a viaduct over the motorway had to be demolished and rebuilt.










I'd add to that list the Langenwedding disaster, where a tanker truck was hit by a train at a crossing in 1967.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> Somewhat it feels odd that so few casualties have been reported.


Evidently there was only one fatality, the driver of the tanker truck I presume. He may have been killed on impact. 

They managed to clear the traffic behind the incident before the big explosion occurred, I wonder how much time there was between the crash and the explosion. It must've been at least a couple of minutes to get those trucks backed away.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Evidently there was only one fatality, the driver of the tanker truck I presume. He may have been killed on impact.


Yes, by "casualties" I meant also the injured.



> They managed to clear the traffic behind the incident before the big explosion occurred, I wonder how much time there was between the crash and the explosion. It must've been at least a couple of minutes to get those trucks backed away.


In the newspapers it was reported that the explosion occured 7-8 minutes after the crash.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> This must be one of the worst accidents on the European motorways in terms of material damage.
> 
> Other very damaging tanker truck accidents come to mind, such as the Los Alfaques disaster, the Herborn disaster and the Martelange disaster.


Mont Blanc tunnel fire, 1999, 39 deaths.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incendio_del_traforo_del_Monte_Bianco

Isola delle Femmine tunnel explosion (A29, Sicily), 1996, 5 deaths.
http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubb...ferno-nella-galleria-morti-fra-le-fiamme.html
This one was similar to the accident in Bologna, involving a crash between a bus and a tanker.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> In the newspapers it was reported that the explosion occured 7-8 minutes after the crash.


That is enough to leave your car and run away as fast as possible in the opposite direction. If the explosion had occurred immediately, the death toll would have been much higher.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> That is enough to leave your car and run away as fast as possible in the opposite direction. If the explosion had occurred immediately, the death toll would have been much higher.


That's true, but in the video you can see that the truck caught fire immediately after the crash, and the flames were pretty dense even before the explosion. If you recall what happened on the A21 few months ago, 6 people died in a similar accident with fire, even though no explosion happened.


----------



## italystf

Another tanker explosion happened few months ago a on the Slovenian A3 just east of Trieste. The driver died.
http://ilpiccolo.gelocal.it/trieste...ona-tre-tir-incendio-in-autostrada-1.16471832


----------



## Wilhem275

Chris, do you have any data on accidents involving trucks rear ending standing vehicles?
My impression is that they're on the rise.

I think it's time to make an AEB retrofit mandatory in the Union. The tecnology is pretty much ready, we can't wait for the whole European fleet to be renovated, too much time and money.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Only what the media reports.

For example, in Northrhine-Westphalia it is on the rise, on average it occurs every other day in that state alone: https://rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/unfaelle-in-nrw-mehr-lkw-unfaelle-am-stauende_aid-16502925

The problem with AEB is that it is trigger happy, it reportedly activates in many situations when it is not needed, so truck drivers turn it off.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Just some anecdotal evidence: there were 3 incidents on German A2 and A7 within 40 km of Hannover where trucks plowed into traffic jams today. 

On A7 near Burgwedel a truck swerved to avoid stopped traffic and side-swiped a cement truck, spilling its load.
On A7 later a truck plowed into a traffic jam near Schwarmstedt and squished a car between him and the next truck.
On A2 near Wunstorf 3 trucks crashed into a traffic jam.


----------



## brick84

*SS 534 “di Cammarata e degli Stombi”, Calabria*

a new 7.5 km stretch opened to traffic in province of Cosenza






mr. jaco said:


> http://www.stradeanas.it/it/calabri...ella-strada-statale-534-“di-cammarata-e-degli


----------



## g.spinoza

Autostrade per l'Italia announces the reconstruction and reopening of A14 and RA1 in Bologna for next mid-October.

http://bologna.repubblica.it/cronac...a_il_ponte_sara_riaperto_a_ottobre-203771601/


EDIT:

Still about A14, but much further south, it seems that the third lane between Senigallia and Ancona nord will be completed in September. 
The stretch was opened with three lanes, in "construction site mode" in 2015 and left in this temporary state for three years. Autostrade announces the definitive opening of the stretch for August (southbound) and September (northbound)

http://www.centropagina.it/attualit...enigallia-ancona-nordjesi-solo-direzione-sud/


----------



## pccvspw999

Observing the pictures of the damages occurred in Bologna, we have really to be glad that no further casualties had to be listed.


----------



## MichiH

brick84 said:


> *SS 534 “di Cammarata e degli Stombi”, Calabria*
> 
> a new 7.5 km stretch opened to traffic in province of Cosenza
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.stradeanas.it/it/calabri...ella-strada-statale-534-“di-cammarata-e-degli
Click to expand...

Thanks, but only 5.65km opened on August 8. Another 900m at A2 interchange will be completed by November 2018.


----------



## keber

Really luxurious interchange with unimportant SS 283 and really substandard interchange with most important A2. Typically Italian.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Considering the traffic down there anything is luxurious. Anyways I don’t like your attitude.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

SS 534 is even an E-road. E844. It is a link in the Taranto - Reggio Calabria route. It makes you wonder what priority SS 106 will get farther south, now that there is a good link to A2.


----------



## Eddard Stark

ChrisZwolle said:


> SS 534 is even an E-road. E844. It is a link in the Taranto - Reggio Calabria route. It makes you wonder what priority SS 106 will get farther south, now that there is a good link to A2.


534 is an important connection, make no mistake. But even A2 has very little traffic in Calabria, relatively speaking.

About 106...it's very difficult it will get much attention going forward. The sections that made sense to upgrade first have been upgraded. The rest...italy will never have the funds to do I think.


----------



## kreden

italystf said:


> Another tanker explosion happened few months ago a on the Slovenian A3 just east of Trieste. The driver died.
> http://ilpiccolo.gelocal.it/trieste...ona-tre-tir-incendio-in-autostrada-1.16471832


Thankfully there will be less of those accidents now that there is electronic tolling for HGVs. There were quite a few deadly accidents involving queuing trucks at toll stations in the last few months before the switchover.


----------



## keber

Eddard Stark said:


> Considering the traffic down there anything is luxurious. Anyways I don’t like your attitude.


Sorry if you don't like my attitude but you can agree that connections of autostrade with secondary road network are often substandard or very indirect even if a connecting road is important.


----------



## mistikos

SS18 from Falerna to Amantea:


----------



## Verso

keber said:


> Sorry if you don't like my attitude but you can agree that connections of autostrade with secondary road network are often substandard or very indirect even if a connecting road is important.


It's usually because of toll booths, but I see there're no toll booths in that interchange. Is A2 (ex-A3) still toll-free?


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> It's usually because of toll booths, but I see there're no toll booths in that interchange. Is A2 (ex-A3) still toll-free?


Yes it is.


----------



## Eddard Stark

I don’t see what you mean ... there is an old exit which from gmaps is in the process of an upgrade, maybe could be classified as a modest upgrade. But it doesn’t seem an horrible intersection. Can you explain what you mean?


----------



## keber

That exit would deserve something like in above picture. Yet it will remain more or less the same.
Similar cases are all over Italy, even various tangeziale roads, that are defacto expresways, are often connected to autostrade with roundabouts.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Condotte built the bridge. "Its technical specifications are still state-of-the art."


----------



## Wilhem275

Suburbanist said:


> There are unconfirmed reports that a lightning strike hit the pillar just seconds before its collapse, though I don't see, even if confirmed, how both could be possibly related in a casual manner.



It's not related, as already confirmed by experts. What people probably saw are sparks from power lines caught by the collapse. Also two railway lines run under the bridge.




ChrisZwolle said:


> Videos suggest that the bridge deck collapsed before the pylons came down. That suggest there may have been an overweight truck?
> 
> The cable-stays are rather unusual. Solid concrete beams?



Those stays are the major problem of this structure. Morandi basically wanted to show off with his use of prestressed concrete, to the point of applying it where it should never be (concrete has poor resistance to a pulling action). This caused widespread fragmentation, even worse in that saltwater environment.
Plus, using only a single stay per section caused serious variations of the deck level, so it took several years of corrections to finally reach an acceptable profile of the road surface.
The easternmost section had its stays visibly reinforced already in 1990



From the videos I have the same impression, the deck pulled down the pylon (only one is involved in fact). The base is still in place.
It's either a complete failure of one of the stays, or a crack in the deck.


There were some works going on, but they only involved the replacement of side barriers. Maybe some deck drilling was involved.



What is weird here is that this structure was under constanst surveillance, it would have been shut down at the slightest signal of an imminent failure.
I think more complete videos will emerge.


----------



## Suburbanist

35 deaths already confirmed


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What about the barriers? Google Street View shows an additional row of barriers as part of a work zone. I don't know if they were still present today, but these barriers weigh 1.5 tons per 2.5 meters. 

A 200 meter span with such barriers would add 120 tons to the bridge. And there are 4 rows of barriers visible on this image. That would weigh 480 tons per span. In Germany they removed concrete barriers on the Rhine Bridge at Leverkusen to reduce the load on the bridge.


----------



## Kyrat

I have a feeling that the photos of this bridge will be sitting right next to the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in future civil engineering textbooks.


----------



## Wilhem275

ASPI talked about works of deck renovation, they even installed a gantry crane.
Still, no clue on the actual cause.


----------



## Gedeon

Wilhem275 said:


> From the videos I have the same impression, the deck pulled down the pylon (only one is involved in fact). The base is still in place.
> It's either a complete failure of one of the stays, or a crack in the deck.


Quite possible that the eastern stays snapped, that part of the deck then collapsed onto the railway lines (the flashes are seen while pylon is still standing, probably shortening of AC/DC circuits).

But now the whole span (or better said, what remained of it) was unbalanced, and toppled over into the river (as seen in the video and photos).


----------



## MichiH

Wikipedia indicates that Gronda construction works are scheduled to begin in late 2018.


> La data di apertura dei cantieri è prevista per la fine del 2018.


 Is it out-dated or have works already been awarded? How long would construction works last till the bypass might be opened? 5 years if they would work 24/7?

OSM shows the closed A10 and the planned bypass.


----------



## IThomas

Historic image (1965 ca)


----------



## queclasetipo123

An similar bridge in Maracaibo Lake, Venezuela.


----------



## DrOzda

It was not possible to monitor stays in this bridge. Corrosion of steel under concrete is not detectable unless we close it for traffic and x-ray every centimeter of stay (will take ages to proceed).
That was the reason to replace concrete made stays into steel lines in Venezuela.
Interview with constructor of Redzinski bridge in Wrocław:
https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-...jej-ocenie-przyczyna-uszkodzenia-byla/nxg0yc9
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_Rędziński


----------



## Qwert

What a tragedy! hno: I am visiting Genova and Liguria in two weeks, some traffic jams are however the last thing I would worry about right now.


----------



## Gedeon

Another bridge from Morandi that uses the same design: http://www.highestbridges.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wadi_Kuf_Bridge



> The Wadi Kuf was given a rehabilitation in 1999 largely due to ground movements that were affecting the suspended midspan. *The stays were also strengthened with additional outer cables* and new bearings and joints were installed.


----------



## keber

I drove there in October. I believe the main reason for failure is bad design, that apparently doesn't hold more than 50 years. Of course it was efficient design in those years of fast economic recovery and speedy motorway construction. But sadly it ended in worst possible way


----------



## MichiH

I would never ever blame the engineer who has designed the brigde more than 50 years ago!

It's the damn job for dozens of ANAS road authority engineers to check that their bridges are stable. What have they done in the past 50 years? If they don't think that the bridge is safe, they have to repair or close it. Period!


----------



## DrOzda

Gedeon said:


> Another bridge from Morandi that uses the same design:


At least German building company redesigned stays during construction:
"It is Morandi’s only cable stayed bridge that does not have prestressed concrete cable stays but steel locked-coil cables developed by a German builder."


----------



## Gedeon

DrOzda said:


> At least German building company redesigned stays during construction:
> "It is Morandi’s only cable stayed bridge that does not have prestressed concrete cable stays but steel locked-coil cables developed by a German builder."


This sentence refers to the Venezuelan bridge, not the Libyan one.

But yes, it seems Morandi was a bit... arrogant and neglectful when it comes to execution of his designs, dare I say. Italian professor said:


> A structural engineer who lectures at Genoa University, Antonio Brencich, warned in 2016 that there were problems with the bridge, Italian media report.
> 
> The bridge's designer, Riccardo Morandi (1902-1989) had miscalculated the "viscous deformation" - an ageing effect on reinforced concrete, Mr Brencich said.
> 
> "He was an engineer with great insight but lacking in practical calculations," the lecturer said.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The easternmost pylon has been strengthened with steel cables along the concrete stays. The other pylons don't have this. 

The cables were added to the easternmost pylon in or before 2008 according to Street View.


----------



## Gedeon

MichiH said:


> I would never ever blame the engineer who has designed the brigde more than 50 years ago!
> 
> It's the damn job for dozens of ANAS road authority engineers to check that their bridges are stable. What have they done in the past 50 years? If they don't think that the bridge is safe, they have to repair or close it. Period!


How can you know there isn't a construction flaw/degradation that cannot be readily inspected? You cannot, short of X-raying the whole bridge section by section.

The design is bad if it doesn't allow for easy inspection. The design is bad if it collapses without prior warning. The design is bad if it uses new and unproven building techniques. The design is bad if there are no alternate load paths when a member fails. And so on...


----------



## MichiH

^^ If that would be true, we need to expect many similar unexpected events. If the design is not safe per se, the bridge had to be replaced - long ago!


----------



## x-type

Speaking about trough traffic to France: A26 will certainly take it. The last time I travelled there was back in 1998, so I don't remember it too well. What is the comparison of A7 and A26 like? A26 is far more modern motorway comparing to A7 so it should carry trough traffic without any problems. 
The problem that remains is Livorno - Savona traffic. Also, approaching airport of Genova from the city might become the nightmare since there are only few bridges over Polcevera inside the city.


----------



## Peloso

I see that not only on the "pro-european" and pro-mafia globalist press, but here as well, the usual political profiteering and speculation has begun in a forum where politics should be banned. And, we see more examples of finger-pointing at the dead. Engineer Morandi was a pioneer in his work, awarded with numerous international prizes, and author of an enormous deal of large projects in Italy and the world in the 50es-60es. He did probably make mistakes, but the fact that the bridge was in as a despicable state as testified by the photo posted by Vierkant, means Morandi is the last one who should be called to question. I even read a statement by Brencich, an Italian engineer interviewed today by the press, who said the bridge was a failed project since the beginning, and falsely claimed that another bridge by Morandi in Maracaibo "also had problems", whereas everyone knows that bridge fell because it was hit by an oiler. Needless to say, this is to protect the rotten politicians who for almost 20 years haven't moved one finger to force Autostrade per l'Italia (read: their good friend, the "democratic" Benetton) to do proper maintenance on the network, instead of just leeching off the Italians the highest tolls in all of the effing Europe. But no. Instead, you read everywhere that who is to blame (roll of drums?) OF COURSE Morandi is to blame, along with the 5 Star Movement, who's been at the helm of Italy for two months and a half. Why? Because three years ago they opposed a concurrent bridge that would NOT have replaced the collapsed one, just complemented it, and would have been completed in no less than 8 years. Get a life...


----------



## MichiH

Peloso said:


> the usual political profiteering and speculation has begun in a forum where politics should be banned.


No, I guess we talk about "casualties and their famillies", don't we? Or are we just sensation-seeking? hno:


----------



## keber

I wouldn't blame original engineer too. He did what he thought it is right. Prestressed concrete was deemed as almost miracle material in sixties, until one hall made from prestressed concrete collapsed in Germany in seventies (without causalities though). Analysis of that colapse showed that tensioned concrete in such structures looses strength over time what may be also fault in Genova case but will see that in following weeks and months.

I blame later engineers and politicians that didn't see or awknowleged design faults and adapted the structure or even demolished it with safer replacement. Just good maintenance of bad design does not help in the end.

@A26 vs A7: anyone from north to go in direction of France will use A26 as it is much better and faster. I took both last year including A10 and it is amazing that A7 is autostrada at all as it is really curvy and dangerous. As for direction France-south of Genova I believe transit can take A26-A7 combo. It will take another hour or so, but better than taking dense traffic through Genova that will become much denser now.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

ChrisZwolle said:


> Politicians want to revoke the concession of Autostrade per l'Italia: https://www.repubblica.it/politica/..._-204158561/?ref=RHPPTP-BH-I0-C12-P1-S1.12-T1


I don't believe this is an idea they had yesterday.
I think the did want to nationalize highways and use this tragedy to boost their purpose.

A Venezuelan destiny stands right on Italy's future.
Stay tuned


----------



## MichiH

keber said:


> I blame later engineers and politicians that didn't see or awknowleged design faults


 I think that's not the job of politicians! Engineers must recognize the problem and report to the heads of road authorities. Sure, on top, there's a Ministry of Transport which is lead by politicians and they might put pressure on their employees but if you know that something is wrong and ignore it to keep your job........


----------



## MichiH

Media is reporting about bridges in bad condition for years now. In Italy, Germany, US,... But does anyone care? I don't talk about politicians but about "normal" people. About us What's good, reliable and safe (road) infrastructure worth for us?


----------



## Wilhem275

sotonsi said:


> *I don't believe the left-right split is that useful a measure because the idea that the French Revolutionary Government is somehow universal is nonsense, as is the idea that multiple questions are answered in a one-dimensional way.


Today left and right are completely surpassed concepts, the situation is much more liquid.

Also consider that in Italian politics there has always been a big misunderstanding about "right wing".
Modern Italy never had a proper liberal party. Left wing was pretty much aligned to socialist ideas, like everywhere else, but right wing never really embraced "free market" ideas like in the rest of the West. They just follow corporatism.
This mistake began during Fascism, which is universally considered a right wing movement but was in fact a socialist party in its roots.

So you get:
- left wing: progressive social policies, socialist economic policies
- right wing: conservative social, corporatist economic policies
...liberal economic policies: not found icard:

The Italian right wing, in economic terms, is in fact even more to the left than the Left itself.

This also led to the late bizarre situation in which then main left wing party is today accused of being the one too lax towards free market.
After 1989 the Italian left became much more liberal, like in the rest of Europe, while right wing was completely wrapped up in corporatism, and newer parties got even worse.

Corporatism is a great success here because most people are freaking scared of any form of competition and still don't realize that a free lunch given by the State has to be paid by someone.

The success of current anti-system policies is a reaction to the tiny opening to free market we had in the past 30 years. Many people were completely unprepared for open competition, so they dream of going back to a State-owned utopia.

That's how you get a minister to publicly blame the privatized highway system before we have even a clue of what the heck happened to this bridge.


----------



## keber

MichiH said:


> I think that's not the job of politicians! Engineers must recognize the problem and report to the heads of road authorities. Sure, on top, there's a Ministry of Transport which is lead by politicians and they might put pressure on their employees but if you know that something is wrong and ignore it to keep your job........


Politicians give money. A replacement for a kilometer long viaduct on a motorway with very dense traffic in a dense populated city is a very costly thing (in money and time) and politician work is to provide necessary resources before troubles arise. Engineers work is to find appropriate technical solutions ASAP that are also affordable.


----------



## Wilhem275

x-type said:


> Speaking about trough traffic to France: A26 will certainly take it. The last time I travelled there was back in 1998, so I don't remember it too well. What is the comparison of A7 and A26 like? A26 is far more modern motorway comparing to A7 so it should carry trough traffic without any problems.
> The problem that remains is Livorno - Savona traffic. Also, approaching airport of Genova from the city might become the nightmare since there are only few bridges over Polcevera inside the city.


 In terms of capacity, A26 can absorb pretty much anything that comes from A10 (France and western Liguria), since it is wider.
In any case A7 was not used by France-bound traffic.


In the end just the coastal route (A12-A10 trough a bit of A7) is affected.
Local traffic can use the new waterfront road, although with delays.
Through traffic should divert via A7, then the A7-A26 connector, then down A26.
A7 may have a problem with capacity here.


----------



## [BÉTON!BRUT!]

Vierkant said:


> I saw on Twitter a discussion with following pictures and google link. Maybe this information allready known. Excuses for that.
> 
> Google link: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4259909,8.8887536,3a,38.7y,340.07h,104.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9EunboMIlpeef1TSNqwM5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Good luck in ivestigating the technical properties of a construction based on Google Street Photo. Most likely these are left from technical pauses during the construction of the base and are insignificant structuraly.


----------



## JB Colbert

Peloso said:


> ...Why? Because three years ago they opposed a concurrent bridge that would NOT have replaced the collapsed one, just complemented it, and would have been completed in no less than 8 years. Get a life...


If you don't understand why the Gronda would have avoided this disaster if it was already built you have a serious problem.

Translate please "Analfabeta funzionale".


----------



## Wilhem275

No, please don't feed it...


----------



## MichiH

keber said:


> Politicians give money. A replacement for a kilometer long viaduct on a motorway with very dense traffic in a dense populated city is a very costly thing (in money and time)


Agree!



keber said:


> and politician work is to provide necessary resources before troubles arise.


What does "resources" mean? If you mean human resources and money, I agree.



keber said:


> Engineers work is to find appropriate technical solutions ASAP that are also affordable.


True. And they have to report their concerns to the heads of the road authority. They have to ensure that the infrastructure is safe. If it's not safe, they have to close the road.


----------



## JB Colbert

Wilhem275 said:


> No, please don't feed it...


You are rigth, but we cannot stay silent in front of these people.
Who voted M5S does not have the intellectual abilities to understand the risk they exposed Italy to: the Venezuelan future.


----------



## MichiH

^^ No politics here, please!


----------



## Peloso

keber said:


> Politicians give money. A replacement for a kilometer long viaduct on a motorway with very dense traffic in a dense populated city is a very costly thing (in money and time) and politician work is to provide necessary resources before troubles arise. Engineers work is to find appropriate technical solutions ASAP that are also affordable.


Sorry people, either you're very young and don't know much about the matter, or you didn't read what I just wrote. Politicians could not provide any money. And, the ministry of Transportation had no "employees" to put pressure on. "Autostrade per l'Italia" is a PRIVATE company. The politicians (PD and Berlusconi's underbosses, either in Rome and at regional level) could, and SHOULD have, kept the activities of this company under control, for the sake of Italian citizens' safety. But they didn't, because Benetton is a really good friend of theirs, provides votes and economic support for left and right. This is a blatant case of criminal corruption. For many years the locals had been signing petitions and creating committees calling the authorities to action, since it was evident to everyone that the bridge was in a dangerous condition. So Colbert, dear ex-government friend, explain which way the Gronda bridge, ready (in the best case) in 2025, could have avoided this disaster when the bridge was already dangerous 10 years ago or more. Since you're there, also explain why Toti or the "democratic" mayors, who governed for the last 30 years, did not say a word about the state the bridge was in and the danger it presented. You should be just ashamed of yourself, but I see you can't.


----------



## MichiH

Peloso said:


> "Autostrade per l'Italia" is a PRIVATE company. The politicians (PD and Berlusconi's underbosses, either in Rome and at regional level) could, and SHOULD have, keep the activities of this company under control, for the sake of Italian citizens' safety.


Thanks, that's the point! Sorry, I'm not familar with all details of Italian road authorities. When I talk about "heads of road authority" I talk about the heads of this PRIVATE company. They are responsible and must be fined if they don't do their job! And you are right, politicians must control them or cancel the consession contract! (not sure what kind of contract it really is)



Peloso said:


> For many years the locals had been signing petitions and creating committees calling the authorities to action, since it was evident to everyone that the bridge was in a dangerous condition.


That's very interesting! I haven't known that people fought for it.


----------



## sotonsi

JB Colbert said:


> the Gronda would have avoided this disaster


How does Gronda stop concrete corrosion?

This seems to be the hobby-horse pushing functional illiteracy (the term you wanted in English) that you accuse Peloso of, just from the other side.

It would have mitigated the issues, sure - less through traffic on the bridge and so less strain on it (though it still would have been a major link to the port and seen quite a lot of truck traffic, as well as local car traffic) and the diversionary route post-collapse would have been less. But Gronda wouldn't have dealt with the problem of crumbling concrete, nor the neglect of the owners (if anything, having a bypass would have made it less cared for as less important).

The Forth Bridge in Scotland has similar issues of weakened supports holding the bridge up - they ended up having to close it fully for months to do major repairs before the replacement bridge was finished as they deemed it unsafe. And when the replacement was finished, they closed it for even more lengthy repairs despite it's traffic now being only relatively infrequent buses, and pedestrians and cyclists: reducing traffic doesn't remove the risk of bridge collapse - merely reduces it and delays the decay.


----------



## Mercos

keber said:


> @A26 vs A7: anyone from north to go in direction of France will use A26 as it is much better and faster. I took both last year including A10 and it is amazing that A7 is autostrada at all as it is really curvy and dangerous. As for direction France-south of Genova I believe transit can take A26-A7 combo. It will take another hour or so, but better than taking dense traffic through Genova that will become much denser now.


And who is going to pay for the extra 100 kilometers of private autostrade, just because is their fault?


----------



## JB Colbert

Peloso said:


> Sorry people, either you're very young and don't know much about the matter, or you didn't read what I just wrote. Politicians could not provide any money. And, the ministry of Transportation had no "employees" to put pressure on. "Autostrade per l'Italia" is a PRIVATE company. The politicians (PD and Berlusconi's underbosses, either in Rome and at regional level) could, and SHOULD have, kept the activities of this company under control, for the sake of Italian citizens' safety. But they didn't, because Benetton is a really good friend of theirs, provides votes and economic support for left and right. This is a blatant case of criminal corruption. For many years the locals had been signing petitions and creating committees calling the authorities to action, since it was evident to everyone that the bridge was in a dangerous condition. So Colbert, dear ex-government friend, explain which way the Gronda bridge, ready (in the best case) in 2025, could have avoided this disaster when the bridge was already dangerous 10 years ago or more. Since you're there, also explain why Toti or the "democratic" mayors, who governed for the last 30 years, did not say a word about the state the bridge was in and the danger it presented. You should be just ashamed of yourself, but I see you can't.


Analfabeta funzionale, don't forget that the figth against the Gronda started in the late '80-early '90.
Enjoy the future.

This is my last message on this thread.


----------



## Wilhem275

MichiH said:


> That's very interesting! I haven't known that people fought for it.


Wait, wait... "people" around here believe a lot of bullshit and urban legends.

The bridge was in need of constant extra maintenance from the beginning --> True.
The bridge was in immediate KNOWN danger --> We don't know, probably not.
The people had any clue about the actual state of the bridge --> Absolutely not, for lack of facts.

You can find a "citizen's committee" fighting about any possible thing. If now it turns out one was right, it's mostly because of the stopped clock theory...

I did my part in pushing transportation policies as a citizen, and one thing I learnt is: the harder they scream, the less facts they have.
Who does the actual work is usually flying A LOT lower, mostly because they don't have time to waste in public cries.

So I give zero credibility to "The public knew", they know crap and they believe even worse crap. A lot of people fight for stuff they don't have a clue about.


That said, I'd like to point out again that we still have not the slightest fact about this collapse, so it's totally misleading to look for who's responsible while we don't even know what the responsibilities are.


----------



## Wilhem275

Mercos said:


> And who is going to pay for the extra 100 kilometers of private autostrade, just because is their fault?


As long as they stay within the tolling system, nobody will pay any extra. It's calculated on entry and exit points, not on the route taken.
It's in fact a loss for the operator, more vehicles*km at the same price.

The extra costs are fuel and time, but that's the same for any major detour (for example, bridge closures on German highways).
A court may rule there's a civil liability for these losses, I don't know if this was ever done before.


----------



## Mercos

Wilhem275 said:


> As long as they stay within the tolling system, nobody will pay any extra. It's calculated on entry and exit points, not on the route taken.
> It's in fact a loss for the operator, more vehicles*km at the same price.


So, it's a closed system for the entire route A10>A26>A7>A12.




Wilhem275 said:


> The extra costs are fuel and time, but that's the same for any major detour (for example, bridge closures on German highways).
> A court may rule there's a civil liability for these losses, I don't know if this was ever done before.


 Would you expect that drivers should give even more benefits to a private company that negligences killed 38 peoples, as far as we know?


The whole route should be free by now, because of the extra hour time loss, extra costs of fuel and wear, and major inconveniences caused to the users.


----------



## Peloso

JB Colbert said:


> Analfabeta funzionale, don't forget that the figth against the Gronda started in the late '80-early '90.
> Enjoy the future.
> 
> This is my last message on this thread.


Pathetic. Just the existence of a Gronda PROJECT (not even a bridge) exhonerated your beloved former governments from surveying the state of the bridge, and Benetton from doing maintenance, right? And the Genoa citizens who DID NOT WANT the Gronda bridge are to blame instead, right? And the 5 Stars movement, founded in 2009, is to blame for having fought the Gronda bridge in the early 90es, right?
I'll repeat it: the Gronda bridge was projected to be a SUBSIDIARY to the Morandi, not to replace the Morandi. Stop blithering nonsense!
It's actually a miracle that just ONE bridge collapsed this year (well two, but the first one because of an explosion). HUNDREDS of bridges are in similar conditions in Italy, either on Benetton's network and the regional (state-run) roads. Another bridge by Morandi, in Agrigento, was closed one year ago just because of a popular uproar and it was literally crumbling (photos are on the internet). FIVE bridges collapsed in Italy in the last five years, with many victims, every single one because of poor upkeeping.
Good that you decided stopping exposing yourself to public shame, since you don't care for the dead. Your folk Wilhelm better stops too, there are committees in Genoa founded years ago, who got expertise from engineers and PHDs about the situation. In 2016, a question time intervention was made in the Italian Senate (by pm Maurizio Rossi) about the danger of the bridge, where the urgency was stressed of extraordinary measures after the failure of critical joints in the structure. "Urban legends" my a**.


----------



## Wilhem275

Mercos said:


> Would you expect that drivers should give even more benefits to a private company that negligences killed 38 peoples, as far as we know?
> 
> The whole route should be free by now, because of the extra hour time loss, extra costs of fuel and wear, and major inconveniences caused to the users.


As far as we know, we know NOTHING! You can't accuse people of manslaughter until you have solid proof and a chain of events.
We have nothing in our hands to decide this, and even if we had, we're not a court.

And even assuming they're liable, two wrongs don't make a right. Tolls are one thing. Civil damages are another.
It's not like by removing tolls roads will magically mantain themselves; apart from that bridge there's a whole system still working, with rules.

This is free lunch populism, yet again.


----------



## italystf

Mercos said:


> Wilhem275 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as they stay within the tolling system, nobody will pay any extra. It's calculated on entry and exit points, not on the route taken.
> It's in fact a loss for the operator, more vehicles*km at the same price.
> 
> 
> 
> So, it's a closed system for the entire route A10>A26>A7>A12.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wilhem275 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The extra costs are fuel and time, but that's the same for any major detour (for example, bridge closures on German highways).
> A court may rule there's a civil liability for these losses, I don't know if this was ever done before.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Would you expect that drivers should give even more benefits to a private company that negligences killed 38 peoples, as far as we know?
> 
> 
> The whole route should be free by now, because of the extra hour time loss, extra costs of fuel and wear, and major inconveniences caused to the users.
Click to expand...

I guess most drivers will take the coastal road Via Guido Rossa (opened 1.5 years ago), rather than the long detour north.


----------



## Wilhem275

italystf said:


> I guess most drivers will take the coastal road Via Guido Rossa (opened 1.5 years ago), rather than the long detour north.


 Most probably. I see there's some mess going on with the maps right where it connects with the motorway network in the west (front of Cornigliano rail station), maybe they're sorting out something to streamline it.


Another thing that should be noted: if there's a subject that has been pushing steadily to build the bypass (Gronda), it is ASPI itself. For a simple reason: they know Genoa's network is reaching capacity and this means they would not be able to guarantee the level of service required by their concession contract.
But frankly this has little or nothing to do with the collapse.


----------



## sbondorf

GENIUS LOCI said:


> This is in Maracaibo
> 
> It was built by the same ingeneer (Morandi) of Genova's bridge


And this bridge, too, once suffered a collapse. That happened back in 1964 when the, still newish, bridge could not withstand being rammed by a tanker. This disaster did not affect the main spans or pylons and is probably not comparable to the Genoa havoc. Interesting nonetheless.


----------



## Mercos

Wilhem275 said:


> As far as we know, we know NOTHING! You can't accuse people of manslaughter until you have solid proof and a chain of events.
> We have nothing in our hands to decide this, and even if we had, we're not a court.
> 
> And even assuming they're liable, two wrongs don't make a right. Tolls are one thing. Civil damages are another.
> It's not like by removing tolls roads will magically mantain itself; apart from that bridge there's a whole system still working, with rules.
> 
> This is free lunch populism, yet again.


We know for sure that this bridge was owned by Autostrade per l'Italia, which was in charge of supervision and reparations. 



You put the "two wrongs" out of context, the wrong in this case are the users, not the benefits of the autostrade company, you imply. 



It should be free, and it's entirely possible, as we can see in Poland, they opened occasionally the barriers for much less than that: just because there was too much traffic on the toll booths. It's not the rules that will prevent this, just the will that is missing.
You know, there are many motorways toll-free country in Europe, many are more developed than Italy, I may assume you they have "free lunch populism" every time, according to you.


----------



## italystf

sbondorf said:


> GENIUS LOCI said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is in Maracaibo
> 
> It was built by the same ingeneer (Morandi) of Genova's bridge
> 
> 
> 
> And this bridge, too, once suffered a collapse. That happened back in 1964 when the, still newish, bridge could not withstand being rammed by a tanker. This disaster did not affect the main spans or pylons and is probably not comparable to the Genoa havoc. Interesting nonetheless.
Click to expand...

Any bridge would collapse with such an impact.


----------



## sponge_bob

Had the 5Star lot not objected to the Gronda (because they are infested with greens) then the Gronda might have been built already. 

Had the Gronda been built that would have reduced traffic on the collapsed bridge. 

Had the traffic reduced then

a) wear and tear would have reduced on the bridge
b) it would have been easier to find space to do major maintenance to stop a potential collapse. 

But populists never take responsibility for their own shite, it is much easier to continually object to anything sensible than to actually do something sensible. 

Now one of these idiots is a minister of Transport.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Maybe the bridge would have collapsed in 2020. Maybe a few less people would have died. But the collapse had likely happened anyway - with or without Gronda. Only affect to traffic after the indident is a huge difference with or without the bypass.


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## Mercos

Actually, it's not worth to take a A26>A7 detour.

It's simpler and faster to go through Genova.

Inner city roads consists of a 4-6 lanes arterial road, then mostly in expressway/elevated road configuration SS1, leading to the A7 which starts in the south, in front of the sea.

According to google maps, there are no traffic jams actually.










The stupidest thing is that it may cost you more in tolls than to make the 100 kilometers detours. Since you're leaving and entering again the toll system.


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## IThomas

Infrastructure and Transport Minister Danilo Toninell (Five Star Movement) said that the top level of Autostrade per l’Italia "must step down first of all". He told RAI television the government intended to cancel its deal to manage the A10 toll motorway connecting Genoa to the French border. "I have given mandate to my ministry to start all proceedings to apply the agreement, that is to revoke the concession from these companies and seek significant sanctions".

"Those responsible for the tragedy in Genoa have a name and a surname, and they're called Autostrade per l’Italia. For years it's been said that private management would be better than that of the state" said Luigi Di Maio, (Five Star Movement's leader). "And so today, we have one of the biggest dealers in Europe telling us that the bridge was safe and there was no worry of it collapsing. Autostrade had to maintain it but didn't. It takes the highest road tolls in Europe and pays low taxes, moreover in Luxembourg."

"Pay, pay everything, and pay dearly" told Matteo Salvini (League's leader).

A criminal inquiry into the collapse has been announced.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-death-toll-italy-minister-calls-resignations


----------



## Wilhem275

Why not checking first?

The price is exactly the same...


----------



## Mercos

Genova inner city detour

Arterial road Via Enrico Melen:









SS1:


----------



## Peloso

sponge_bob said:


> Had the 5Star lot not objected to the Gronda (because they are infested with greens) then the Gronda might have been built already bla bla


Had you not chimed in parroting the same pitiful b****t your 'democratic' spin doctor friends have been frantically pushing since minute one, and had you bothered to take a look as far as five posts ago where these bollocks have been exposed for what they are, then you could have remotely hoped to be taken seriously.


----------



## sponge_bob

Peloso said:


> Had you not chimed in parroting the same pitiful b****t your 'democratic' spin doctor friends have been frantically pushing since minute one,


Thank you for your 'democratic' input, most welcome.


----------



## x-type

Mercos said:


> Actually, it's not worth to take a A26>A7 detour.
> 
> It's simpler and faster to go through Genova.
> 
> Inner city roads consists of a 4-6 lanes arterial road, then mostly in expressway/elevated road configuration SS1, leading to the A7 which starts in the south, in front of the sea.
> 
> According to google maps, there are no traffic jams actually.
> 
> The stupidest thing is that it may cost you more in tolls than to make the 100 kilometers detours. Since you're leaving and entering again the toll system.


It is Ferragosto afternoon. Take a look tomorrow morning, or even better 03.09.


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## Mercos

^^
I will let Chris reply to your opinion.

Anyway, very little was done to improve the motorways since the 1960's.
From my experience, I used to drive mainly on the A5, and I must say that even though this motorway pass through the Po plain, it has no shoulders, or very narrow ones, nothing is done to bring it back to modern standards, unlike other countries in Europe, and you pay one of the highest tolls in Europe!

Edit: Chris already replied. I think the standards are closer to the German Reichsautobahn of the 1930's, than the 1960's, a period where there was a boom in car ownership. Anyway, the designers and engineers were not very visionary of the future.


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## g.spinoza

I never noticed missing shoulders on Po plain A5, but I drove there very few times. By the way, just to be precise, that stretch is not so expensive. The expensive stretch is Quincinetto/Monte Bianco, where the motorway becomes a mountain one.

Anyways, I don't particularly like Italian motorways: ramps are often short, signage is terrible, shoulders are random and so on.
That said, I still think Morandi bridge was not obsolete back then. Nowadays it obviously was: when - and if - the external bypass will be built (so-called Gronda) the plan is to downgrade that entire stretch, making it lose motorway classification.

But then, the majority of recently built motorways in, say, Spain are substandard as well: terrible grades, so much that loaded trucks crawl at 40 or 50 km/h, very convoluted junctions, curves and curves and endless curves... it doesnt seem, as Chris says, that European countries fare better in motorway design...


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## ChrisZwolle

Nearly all postwar bridges in Germany had shoulders on them. For example the many bridges of A45 and A7 in Central Germany were built around the same time (1966-1968) and they all have shoulders. 

Italy has always been somewhat of an outlier in regards to shoulders. They are among the narrowest in Europe, compensated by the many SOS bays. There has always been a need to cut cost due to the unforgiving terrain. A10 was an engineering marvel, running almost entirely on bridges or in tunnels, but at the expense of shoulders.


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## Mercos

^^
^^








You call this a shoulder?
If you have to stop you will still outstrip on the right lane.



> The expensive stretch is Quincinetto/Monte Bianco, where the motorway becomes a mountain one.


Yes, it's one of the most expensive in Europe, and it's run on the valley with many plains.


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## sponge_bob

g.spinoza said:


> Its design was not obsolete in the 60s simply because there were so few motorways in Europe back then that a standard was in fact non-existent.
> It was the best compromise between functionality and cost, especially in a densely-populated area.


I did drive the A10<>A12 from Nice to Pisa once, it was fcuking awful  and I never drove in Italy since. Incredibly tight and narrow for a motorway and no good bits until I was nearly in Pisa. 

Italian cars in the 1950s and 1960s were probably the smallest in Europe on average and most could barely exceed 100kph, I think this explains the narrowness of many of the Autostradi of that era. Then cars got bigger and faster and the roads were not designed for that. 

A simpler solution is to reclassify the A10 and A12 to superstrade, _which is what they are_. They are not motorways. I understand the A7 north of Genoa has issues as well but I was never on it.


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## g.spinoza

You are right, but there are emergency bays, something I rarely saw in other countries. As well as draining tarmac. And for your information, A5 it's one of the few motorways in the world to be heated to prevent formation of ice.

But you don't find me accusing other countries of being backward because they don't have those.

EDIT my reply was to Mercos.


----------



## Mercos

For comparison, German Reichsautobahn Berlin-Breslau from the 1930's:








Looks similar, or even wider lanes.


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## g.spinoza

Mercos said:


> .
> 
> 
> Yes, it's one of the most expensive in Europe, and it's run on the valley with many plains.


what are you talking about? There are more tunnels in that stretch than in your whole country.


----------



## strandeed

Italian motorways are ridiculously narrow and cramped.

Hopefully this will be a wake up call into the shoddy state of Italian highway infrastructure.

It's a tragedy that people had to die though


----------



## Mercos

g.spinoza said:


> what are you talking about? There are more tunnels in that stretch than in your whole country.


 Since when do you know my country?
You don't know what you're talking about.



> You are right, but there are emergency bays, something I rarely saw in other countries. As well as draining tarmac. And for your information, *A5 it's one of the few motorways in the world to be heated to prevent formation of ice*.


How does it work?


----------



## Mercos

Well, we all agree Italian motorways are generally narrow and cramped in comparison to the rest of Europe. Well, maybe with the exception of g.spinoza who thinks that they are super great.



sponge_bob said:


> Italian cars in the 1950s and 1960s were probably the smallest in Europe on average and most could barely exceed 100kph, I think this explains the narrowness of many of the Autostradi of that era. Then cars got bigger and faster and the roads were not designed for that.
> 
> A simpler solution is to reclassify the A10 and A12 to superstrade, which is what they are. They are not motorways. I understand the A7 north of Genoa has issues as well but I was never on it.


Indeed, if they were conceived with the Fiat Tupolino or 500/600 in mind that could explain it.
Superstradas, that's what most of them are in fact. Many national roads, per ex. in France, have higher standards.


----------



## Stuu

g.spinoza said:


> You are right, but there are emergency bays, something I rarely saw in other countries.


Aren't the emergency bays a result of the narrow shoulders though?

I don't want to join in moaning about the designer or the operator responsible for maintenance. We don't know what caused it, it _could_ have been something completely unforeseen that wouldn't have been picked up in any maintenance regime. Obviously if it was shoddy maintenance then those responsible, and at the top of the chain need to take the blame, but for now my condolences are with the victims and their families.


----------



## AAndreAA

Another very interesting document
http://informesdelaconstruccion.rev...esdelaconstruccion/article/viewFile/3892/4426


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## Verso

First of all, condolences to the victims. But secondly, this is unacceptable. The A10 is not some local road, it's a tolled motorway. At least all motorways, expressways and main roads should be safe.


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## Peloso

krisu99 said:


> And I have a question as well: Is there a good forum where the collapse is being discussed by people who are experts in the domain? I do have collected quite a few technical articles about Morandi's concepts, and would see people exchanging thoughts that go beyond general media style.


Krisu, I would guess, if you wait two or three days, and you can read Italian, there will be lots of similar discussions on the net, at any level. Interesting site about the bridge, thx.


sponge_bob said:


> I did drive the A10<>A12 from Nice to Pisa once, it was fcuking awful  and I never drove in Italy since. Incredibly tight and narrow for a motorway and no good bits until I was nearly in Pisa.


And you haven't even driven on the Salerno-Reggio Calabria...


sponge_bob said:


> Italian cars in the 1950s and 1960s were probably the smallest in Europe on average and most could barely exceed 100kph, I think this explains the narrowness of many of the Autostradi of that era.


It's not just because of the different speeds, and traffic, and loads involved, it's because building wide and straight motorways, in a country with the geography and the geology of Italy, is a very tough deed. We have thousands of tunnels and bridges, many of which, up to this day, are considered marvels of engineering. Building them twice wider would have been plain impossible. I say, kudos to our engineers and architects from the Fifties and Sixties. Before them, Italy was basically stuck in the 18th century. The crux of the matter is, since the Eighties Italy stopped moving forward, and, worse than that, the existing infrastructure was left to rot with little maintenance. This is particularly true starting from the Nineties, when the wave of privatization became strongest. Of course, only the profitable state assets were privatized, and the Great political Exchange of Favors began. So it's true that the current strade and autostrade, railways, electric grid and every possible infrastructure are absof******lutely, pathetically not up to task. Only, of course, this does not mean one should give carte-blanche to "progressive" worthless projects, of which there is an abundance in Italy today, that aim at ransacking the public budget even more, all the while moving the profits into private hands, and destroying the uber-delicate environment and ecology of Italy. The story with the fabled "Messina bridge", where the accessory works for a sci-fi bridge without a project were started, only to find out this was only to feed mafia and pay penalties to some friends of the former govs, is NOT an extreme. It's been the STANDARD in Italy up to this day. So, in spite of what some lovers of this mafiosi system claim even on this forum, no one in Italy trusts the bollocks pushed by privatization mafia anymore. "Privatization" in Italy is: build on public money, then award a 50 years concession to a private company, then let them pay ludicrous taxes from Luxembourg, then enjoy unlimited funding for your political parties. Since the Autostrade went into private hands, and the State Railways became a stock joint company, things have only been going south, prices skyrocketed, and more disasters have happened in the last 15 years than in the previous fifty. Blabbering of "competition" in a country like Italy is only going to make you a laughing stock in any italian bar. So, dear foreign friends, don't fall for this c***, ok? Also, wherever you read that "privatization has nothing to do with this" and "nothing is known as of yet about the causes" just know, this is more pitiful baloney. The state the bridge (and hundreds of other bridges) was in has been public domain for years. Those people now, in this frantic bout of damage control would have it both ways: that "the bridge was dangerous since the beginning", according to friendly "experts" (so why didn't Benetton declare it unsafe twenty years ago?), and, "the bridge was in no need of extra-ordinary maintenance, no warning sign was reported" (statement by Marigliani, CEO of Autostrade). The local committees know better, lots of documented reports were made. So the new Minister of infrastructure is perfectly right in his intent to revoke the public concession, there are more than enough "clues" for that. I'm also hopeful the guilty will pay a hefty price, but that's hardly to be expected after former left and right govs, in perfect accord, destroyed the Italian law system to protect themselves.


----------



## g.spinoza

Mercos said:


> Well, we all agree Italian motorways are generally narrow and cramped in comparison to the rest of Europe. Well, maybe with the exception of g.spinoza who thinks that they are super great.





g.spinoza said:


> Anyways, *I don't particularly like Italian motorways*: ramps are often short, signage is terrible, shoulders are random and so on.
> That said, I still think Morandi bridge was not obsolete back then. Nowadays it obviously was: when - and if - the external bypass will be built (so-called Gronda) the plan is to downgrade that entire stretch, making it lose motorway classification.


You obviously never learnt how to read, so I think it is useless for me to try to explain things to you. I'm not a primary school teacher.




Mercos said:


> Since when do you know my country?
> You don't know what you're talking about.


I don't need to. If it's not Italy (or Norway) you don't know anything about tunnels.


----------



## g.spinoza

Stuu said:


> Aren't the emergency bays a result of the narrow shoulders though?
> 
> I don't want to join in moaning about the designer or the operator responsible for maintenance. We don't know what caused it, it _could_ have been something completely unforeseen that wouldn't have been picked up in any maintenance regime. Obviously if it was shoddy maintenance then those responsible, and at the top of the chain need to take the blame, but for now my condolences are with the victims and their families.


At least, someone pleasant to talk to.

Yes, emergency bays were a way to save money when building a motorway without lowering (too much) safety features. As the great and magnificent Mercos pointed out, Italy still has some motorways without large shoulders. Some of them are slowly being refitted, though: for instance A4 Milan-Turin, which used to be 2-laned without shoulders, and it was now basically rebuilt at 3 lanes and full shoulders.


----------



## Peloso

g.spinoza said:


> I don't need to. If it's not Italy (or Norway) you don't know anything about tunnels.


Sounds a bit harsh... what if he is from Austria, or Switzerland, or China, or Japan, or Mexico, or...


----------



## g.spinoza

Peloso said:


> Sounds a bit harsh... what if he is from Austria, or Switzerland, or China, or Japan, or Mexico, or...


Yes, it was a bit harsh. I overdid. Apologies but he just got here and managed to get on my nerves.
But I bet anything he is French, so after all I was not wrong.


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## pccvspw999

The MI-TO was a 3-lane without shoulders, or a 2-lane with shoulders (as it was build). During widening works, of course, it has been narrowed were necessary.
This only to be correct. 

Concerning the accident, if we take as a benchmark how the roads of ANAS and other public administrations are maintained, private concessionaries of motorways keep their roads in almost perfect shape, widely over the given “public” benchmark.
It is truely false that privatisation is “the problem”. Autostrade per l’Italia (ASPI) and it’s administrators and technitians will respond for their mistakes, if there are mistakes. Because arguing that mistakes have to be there just because the bridge collapsed, is a massive bullshit: root-causes have to be found, first of all. And, sorry, some of the possible root-causes wouldn’t have been possible to be foreseen. So it’s possible that no one will respond for this disaster, no one. People are responsible for what they know, or for what they wanted not to know, but not for things impossible to know. Let’s see.


----------



## krisu99

*Please note this article is obsolete. Find the updated version on my home page: 
http://www.retrofutur.org/retrofutur/app/main?DOCID=1000116030*

I'd like to explain a bit from what I understood so far about the (in)famous Morandi Prestressed concrete cable stays. To me it is weird that no comprehensive explanation is circulating in the news/media landscape so far, so I did my own research I'd like to share for your interest, challenge and discussion:

First, let us consider the cross-sections of those cable stays:




In the drawing above, the right  cross-section (the red arrow points to it) is located somewhere in the upper part of the cable stay, towards the top of the pylon. The cross-section to the left  is located in the lower part: In fact there are two superimposed cable stay packs that merge further up. Adding complexity to the static system, esp. in the long run:





Also notice the cross section drawings show cables of two different diameters: Thicker and thinner cables. Both have very different functions and assembly modes:

The thicker inner cabless were first lined and tightened, supporting weight of the box-type cantilever carriageway at their ends. So there was no concrete around them yet. Therefore, no precise pre-stressing was possible at this point. This will be done in a next step with the thinner cables, which I'll explain hereafter.

The photo below shows this construction phase: Two sets of 12 inner cables have been spanned, still without the concrete boxing around them, but already supporting the cantilever carriageway:





In a further construction step (using a nightmare kind of scaffolding), concrete has been poured, including the then added thinner outer cables.

It may be adequate to note that the thinner outer cables were those that were mechanically prestressed to keep the concrete girder under compression. And therefore resulting in a prestressed beam.

Morandi thought that loading (major tension on the thinner outer cables and less tension on the thicker inner oness) would reduce mechanical wear and tear of the thicker "main" cables. The tension applied to the outer thinner cables should be only as tight as to just support the maximum bridge load (= road vehicles). Remember that only the tension of the thinner cables could be precisely calibrated during its construction phase.

However, a major problem arose: After the concrete box around the cables was constructed, the resulting sag and weight induced lengthening changed the already fixed effective (=straight) length. Therefore the carriageway was not (and would never be) horizontally well-levelled. They tried to level out the carriageway box girder by adjusting the "V" abutments (which I don't understand how this would have been possible).

In addition to this, another problem needed to be taken into account, and this time it is a major problem that could have contributed to the recent bridge failure:
Because of the noticeable sag of the prestressed concrete cable stays (see lateral images of the bridge), the compression ("pre-stressing") that could be applied to it was very limited. Morandi knew this very well: Applying too much tension (through the thinner cables) would have resulted non controllable distortion effects, like creating a bow, snake or whatever other geometric figure. This is because the beam was very thin in relation to its length. 

So, and this is a bit astonishing, Morandi has chosen the thinner cables to be tensioned within a working range between nearly zero compression (when fully loaded carriageway) and a relatively low compression rate (when empty carriageway. 

The fatality here is that low tensioned concrete is prone to cracks and water intrusion.



As we probably know, around 1993 pylon 11 received a bunch of external reinforcements cables:



Several challenges arose: 
One major problem was that the tension applied to those additional cables should not increase the total combined compression of the thin concrete beam. Applying additional pressure would have been likely to damage the thin concrete beam structure. The successfully applied solution could be summarized as extremely complex: It consisted in cutting a section of the old concrete beam to also cut the old cables inside while subsequently applying more tension to the new external cables. At the end of the strengthening works, all old cables were cut and the missing link refilled. 



*About this info:*
I examined 5 technical articles concerning structural analysis and repair of Morandi type bridges, by different authors so far. It could be interesting to state that most authors (all experts) gave rather different explanations why Morandi has chosen this particular design. This may be an evidence that there is no substantial rational argument in favor of this very difficult design decision.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A video from CCTV on A10 has been released, unfortunately the camera was on the west end of the bridge, too far away to see anything in the adverse weather.


----------



## Mercos

g.spinoza said:


> Ok, the moron is in my ignore list. Now the grownups can have educated conversation.


And yet another insult, you're pathethic!
You're not even able to have a civilised discussion about this thread, cope with it.


----------



## Gedeon

So there is a possibility no better video of collapse will ever be available?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Maybe one of the crashed vehicles had a dashcam?


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Maybe one of the crashed vehicles had a dashcam?


Dashcams are extremely rare in Italy, I wouldn't count on it.


----------



## Mercos

ChrisZwolle said:


> Maybe one of the crashed vehicles had a dashcam?


 Probably some CCTV cameras would have captured it, but there not yet made public.
Also, weren't there other CCTV cameras or webcams on the bridge?


----------



## Mercos

This is the best video of the moment of collapse we have so far:


----------



## Carretero

krisu99 said:


> *About this info:*
> I studied 5 technical articles concerning structural analysis and repair of Morandi type bridges, by different authors so far. It could be interesting to state that most authors (all experts) gave rather different explanations why Morandi has chosen this particular design. This may be an evidence that there is no substantial rational argument in favour of this very difficult design decision.


Thanks a lot for your post.

Could you share with us this bibliography?

Maybe some of the articles are those referenced in this post in The Happy Pontist blog:
http://happypontist.blogspot.com/2018/08/collapse-of-polcevera-viaduct.html


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## ChrisZwolle

This photo shows that the west spans of the bridge are slightly wider than the main spans. There is a narrow outside strip.


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## pccvspw999

Someone noticed that the dropped cantilever carriageway has twisted and penetrated the ground sideways. This would be a proof that one of the suspension girders (stays) failed promptly.
Furthermore, this twisting movement of the carriageway added torsional stress on the tower which made it collapse.
But I wonder: it’s improbable that a bunch of cables give up at once, in a matter of seconds. It’s a progressive type of failure. Possible that no warning signs occured?


----------



## Mercos

There is no traffic jam actually on the Genoa inner city route, only slight slowdowns on the interchanges, according to google maps:


----------



## Gedeon

ChrisZwolle said:


> This photo shows that the west spans of the bridge are slightly wider than the main spans. There is a narrow outside strip.


Are the spans wider or just the markings narrower? Or perhaps a thinner outside barrier was installed? Because in this older StreetView photos there is no outside strip: https://goo.gl/maps/zCf5tbDdGL12


----------



## Gedeon

The bridge initially had steel barriers. Later, concrete barriers were installed, which easily added 1,5-2 tons of deadload per meter, or 300-400 tons per span, probably eating into the safety margins.

During 2017, new in-situ barriers were cast, which are even higher and heavier near the tendons (securing tendons against direct truck hit): https://goo.gl/maps/pAGNRhkGtv62


----------



## krisu99

.


*.
************************************************************************************
**
** I'D KINDLY LIKE TO INVITE PEOPLE NOT TO DEGENERATE THIS AUTOSTRADE FORUM WITH POLITICS TALK
**
************************************************************************************
**
** INSTEAD PLEASE WRITE INTERESTING AND WELL ELABORATED INFORMATIVE CONTRIBUTIONS. 
** Yes you can!
**
************************************************************************************
*
THANK YOU

(sorry for screaming)

.


----------



## Wilhem275

Gedeon said:


> So there is a possibility no better video of collapse will ever be available?


News reported the Police already retrieved several videos, mostly from ASPI. At the moment there's no live webcam active around the A10/A7 interchange, but I hardly believe there weren't any.


Plus, the bridge was visibile from a wide area in the valley, so it must have ended up in some surveillance video somewhere.
Visibility was very poor, though.



I think it's a matter of time.




The easternmost span is even more complicated than the rest: on one side it has an on-ramp passing under the stay, on the other the carriageway opens up so the stay itself is not aligned with the main structure.
Its unbalanced loads might be the reason why it was retrofitted with external cables long ago.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Gedeon said:


> The bridge initially had steel barriers. Later, concrete barriers were installed, which easily added 1,5-2 tons of deadload per meter, or 300-400 tons per span, probably eating into the safety margins.
> 
> During 2017, new in-situ barriers were cast, which are even higher and heavier near the tendons (securing tendons against direct truck hit): https://goo.gl/maps/pAGNRhkGtv62


These photos show that the bridge originally had metal barriers indeed. 



















There were times where 4 rows of barriers were present on the bridge, which may have added as much as 500 tons of additional load compared to the situation just after completion. It could have overloaded the bridge or accelerated its aging. 

The I-35W bridge collapse in Minneapolis was a completely different bridge type, but the 260 tons of construction materials stored on the bridge was cited as a factor. 

As mentioned before, in Germany they removed the concrete barriers from the A1 Leverkusen Rhine Bridge to reduce the load, so the weight of barriers is certainly a factor in bridge statics. Though I doubt if adding the barriers onto the Morandi Bridge was just an oversight. They weigh so much that engineers would've surely calculated if the bridge could handle it.


----------



## pccvspw999

What is the weight of the deck? What is the static load it was mentioned to carry? What safety factors have been added?
I don’t thing that 500t more would have contributed other then marginally to the collapse.


----------



## Des

ChrisZwolle said:


> A video from CCTV on A10 has been released, unfortunately the camera was on the west end of the bridge, too far away to see anything in the adverse weather.


Odd that even at the end of there is still traffic coming in both directions. Seems they cut the video a bit short.


----------



## Nyumba

​


Des said:


> Odd that even at the end of there is still traffic coming in both directions. Seems they cut the video a bit short.


From the video's comments you can see that they did


----------



## krisu99

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Are there any suspicions brought up about a possible overloaded truck? Last year there was a bridge collapse on SS36 near Lecco that was caused by an overweight truck (it weighed over 100 tons).


I believe the failure is due to a number of causes and con-causes, all will have had their effect.

Heavily overloading trucks in Italy seem to be quite common. The fact that both Switzerland and Austria have built Truck Control Check Points along their north-south highways across the Apls may be an evidence...


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Are there any suspicions brought up about a possible overloaded truck? Last year there was a bridge collapse on SS36 near Lecco that was caused by an overweight truck (it weighed over 100 tons).


A bridge never should collapse because of a single overloaded vehicle, except those small ones to carry one vehicle at a time.

Think about a suspension or a cable-stayed 2+2 lane motorway bridge having a span of 500 meters. It must be able to carry more than 50 heavy vehicles simultaneously plus the mass of the span itself. One meter of a motorway bridge is often heavier than a truck. Thus, for the statics of the bridge support structure, it does not make much difference whether a single truck weighs 40 or 200 tons. (But it might have a huge difference at the surface.)

The mass of a vehicle usually correlates to the lifetime of a bridge: Every entering heavy vehicle causes vibration causing a small permanent deformation or steel fatigue. The real impact is not straightforward, as the impact of the vibration is often estimated as directly proportional to the fourth power of the axle load. Thus, a 80-ton vehicle with eight axles makes a double load to a 40-ton vehicle with four axles. However a 48-ton vehicle with four axles is about the same as the 80-ton vehicle with wight axles. 

Things turn more complex when single axles are converted to bogies, and wheels are added to axles. 

One very significant factor is the quality of the surface of the road. An uneven surface adds the vibration, and the impact might more than double, thus halving the licecycle.

The dynamics of a bridge is quite a complex world. A collape very seldom is a result from one single event.


----------



## mulattokid

I feel terrible that this could have happened. Lets not forget it can happen anywhere. We are not as smart as we always think we are when it comes to construction. Look at Grenfell tower in London. 

I am here in Fiumincino with my son from the UK. We had planned to walk to Ostia Antica from the town, across a bridge. The bridge has been closed for safety concerns and we cannot go (unless we go all the way into Rome and back out again) Still. I would much rather that then risk the lives of more people. We can come again another time.


----------



## intersezioni

krisu99 said:


> I believe the failure is due to a number of causes and con-causes, all will have had their effect.
> 
> Heavily overloading trucks in Italy seem to be quite common. The fact that both Switzerland and Austria have built Truck Control Check Points along their north-south highways across the Alps may be an evidence...


The classic "German malice" towards Italy.
I know you're Austrian


----------



## Wilhem275

Can we avoid ad personam arguments, please?


----------



## IThomas

*Renzo Piano proposes idea for new Genoa bridge*










https://www.corriere.it/cronache/18...no-8e3ad87c-ab56-11e8-9764-e6a99f8035d4.shtml


----------



## IThomas

^^




































https://www.corriere.it/foto-galler...va-d424907c-ab6e-11e8-9764-e6a99f8035d4.shtml

Starchitect Renzo Piano gave the city of Genoa "an idea of a bridge" in a scale model he brought to the Liguria regional government offices. Piano said he had been in Geneva on August 14 when the Morandi Bridge collapsed killing 43, "and since then I've been thinking of nothing else". Piano said "the bridge is a theme that touches all the chords: from the technological to the poetic." He was speaking after handing Liguria Governor Giovanni Toti, the extraordinary commissioner for the disaster, his idea of a new bridge.


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ Bad, bad idea! A bridge has to be a bridge, nothing more and nothing less. If it is transformed in a "memento", in 50/100 years when it will be demolished to build new one, not only technical issues will matter but also emotions. This may cause:
a) spend a lot of money to keep the "monument" in place for years to come, or
b) spend a lot of money to rebuild it "where it was, as it was", or worse
c) losing a lot of time in discussione "how and when", until another disaster occurs.

No, please. Let a bridge be a bridge without any deeper emotional meaning.

Furthermore: please "less pillars". 3 or 4 are enough. And tear down that ugly "buttonhole" (with the "gronda" project it will in any case be useless), build it inside the mountain.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^The interchange A10/A7 will będzie demolished and reconstructed to?


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ Within the "gronda" project, yes. The complete interchange will be put inside the mountain. The actual interchange will be modified and the road probably degraded to express way.
Without the "gronda" project, I have no clue. According to the posted pictures, no.


----------



## 8166UY

They have very little choice other than this. It was one of the main arteries of the city and has to be replaced as quick as possible due to that. Building a more sophisticated bridge and/or ramps would take way longer, with serious economic consequences for the region.


----------



## Wilhem275

pccvspw999 said:


> Furthermore: please "less pillars".



This concept placed a pillar straight where a railway flyover must be built icard:


The original was built cable stayed for reasons which didn't change. A miniature Millau would be so nice there.





I suspect this is just an old idea recycled for the occasion...


----------



## pccvspw999

8166UY said:


> They have very little choice other than this. It was one of the main arteries of the city and has to be replaced as quick as possible due to that. Building a more sophisticated bridge and/or ramps would take way longer, with serious economic consequences for the region.


Not necessarily.
The fastest solution is to rebuild only the main viaduct represented by the three pillars no.9 (collapsed), 10 and 11, using a different suspension technique, and using steel for the deck.
Rebuilding the complete viaduct, replacing all the pillars, and changing also their pace, will require much more time and land to be aquired.

A "Millau" fac-simile solution could be with one single pillar in place of no.10 (demolishing the buildings around will leave enough space), 250m high, with a 600m (300m+300m) deck, cable-stayed.


----------



## g.spinoza

afaik the pillars left cannot be reused for a new bridge.


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ Why?


----------



## italystf

^^ The entire bridge is in a poor structural condition. It was bad by design and it didn't get the appropriate maintenance in 50 years. Rebuilding only the collapsed span means asking for another disaster in the future.


----------



## italystf

mulattokid said:


> I feel terrible that this could have happened. Lets not forget it can happen anywhere. We are not as smart as we always think we are when it comes to construction. Look at Grenfell tower in London.
> 
> I am here in Fiumincino with my son from the UK. We had planned to walk to Ostia Antica from the town, across a bridge. The bridge has been closed for safety concerns and we cannot go (unless we go all the way into Rome and back out again) Still. I would much rather that then risk the lives of more people. We can come again another time.


I wrote about the Scafa bridge closure few days ago:
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=151553856&postcount=10586

Photos of the decaying concrete are just scary to look at. Reconstruction was already planned, but it's crazy that they left that bridge open until last week.

The problem is that there are no other bridges in the area, and now there is no road link between Ostia (pop. 100,000) and Fiumicino (pop. 80,000).


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## pccvspw999

The bridge got an appropriate maintainance, of course. “Appropriate” for that was argued beeing the state of wearing. It was underestimated, apparently, for what concerns the cable stayed sections. No concerns are known to me, about the “classic” part of the viaduct, made of equidistant piles and girders.
So, the question is: if this part is in good condition, why not reusing it?
It’s just a matter of time. Of course I would prefer the complete viaduct to be re-build, but how much time is needed to do so? Keeping the existing (again: if reliable) approaching viaduct on the west side, is the only way to safe time.


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## Gedeon

Why do you think it would save time? Building can be done in parallel. Main spans will surely take longer to build than that short-spanned section.


----------



## Wilhem275

It's gonna be rebuilt entirely, end of the story.


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## pccvspw999

^^ From where are You desuming this assumption. Did You see any plan?


----------



## pccvspw999

Gedeon said:


> Why do you think it would save time? Building can be done in parallel. Main spans will surely take longer to build than that short-spanned section.


Of course this may be possible, but You need more people, more machines, more extensive plans, more demolitions, a.s.o.. Resources that have to be found and organised... and, not to mention, more money.

It’s my opinion that the bridge shall be rebuilded entirely from skratch, but it’s not the fastest way to do it. So what’s the plan? We will see.


----------



## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> ^^ Why?


Just what I read in newspapers. They say they're structurally compromised.


----------



## pccvspw999

^^That’s what I wanted to know, thanks!


----------



## stickedy

italystf said:


> I wrote about the Scafa bridge closure few days ago:
> https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=151553856&postcount=10586
> 
> Photos of the decaying concrete are just scary to look at. Reconstruction was already planned, but it's crazy that they left that bridge open until last week.
> 
> The problem is that there are no other bridges in the area, and now there is no road link between Ostia (pop. 100,000) and Fiumicino (pop. 80,000).


This would be the perfect time and place where the Italian army could show that they are capable of building a floating bridge.


----------



## italystf

stickedy said:


> This would be the perfect time and place where the Italian army could show that they are capable of building a floating bridge.


Or the local delegation of M5S party, like they did with the road going around the collapsed viaduct on A19. They now rule Rome, after all. :lol:


----------



## Wilhem275

The demolition process of the Morandi viaduct is drafted.

The remaining cable-stayed sections will be demolished with explosives, taking 150 apartments with them. This will happen in a single session, after a few days of preparation.

For the western part, of traditional design, they will proceed with step-by-step dismantling, taking approximately 1 month of work.

What is needed now is the authorization from the prosecution, since all legal proofs must be collected first. Also, to plan in detail, the demolition team will need to visit areas which are now sealed off.
This could take some time...


----------



## AAndreAA

I played a little with photoshop ...

The solution *0* is that of Renzo Piano.

With the solution *1* I eliminated nine pylons so as to uniform lights, design of the span type with respect to the longest span and symbolism of the street lamps)

With the solution *2* I have vertically moved the strut-pylon coupling (NB: in the solution *0* the inclined elements would seem like tie rods for the longitudinal stabilization of the bridge) in order to to guarantee a certain useful height near the bases of the pylons and at the same time to recall / quote / repropose the building system of the original Ponte-Morandi.









Upload https://postimg.cc


----------



## intersezioni

New bridge of Genoa ( by Renzo Piano. Piano is born in genoa)
End of 2019 jobs
end of November 2018 complete demolition with cleaning of the building site.
the bridge will be entirely built in steel, designed by AUTOSTRADE, FINCANTIERI and STUDIO PIANO.
Probably it will be built by FINCANTIERI with the participation of Autostrade group companies
The part of the Ventimiglia side bridge will be disassembled, the part facing west Genoa at the moment should fall with explosives, but the dismantling in the same way of the other part of the bridge remained standing.
The bridge will be white (or of a light color), will have 43 street lamps, a street lamp for each victim. These street lamps at night will form a play of light that will enhance the bridge.


----------



## intersezioni




----------



## ChrisZwolle

The New York Times has an article detailing the collapse: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/09/06/world/europe/genoa-italy-bridge.html

They say that the southern cable stays broke off and the deck twisted, breaking off the connection segments and then collapsing down, with the pylon collapsing last.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Yes, apparently there is undisclosed footage from a security camera that captured the whole thing. New York Times hasn't seen it, but it was described to them by Italian officials.


----------



## g.spinoza

There is also a GoPro frame of what seems to be a huge crack on the pylon, filmed by a passing car just 7 minutes before the collapse:






Investigators say it was there since 2011 so it's probably not relevant.


----------



## intersezioni

It's not a crack in last-minute cement.
It has been a long time since this sign on concrete is present ( from minute 1)
You can see it in this video February 2018


----------



## intersezioni

The CEO of the company AUTOSTRADE drops the bridge model  ahahahah
Obviously, hilarious jokes were started on the internet


----------



## krisu99

ChrisZwolle said:


> The New York Times has an article detailing the collapse: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/09/06/world/europe/genoa-italy-bridge.html


For a noble newspaper, I found the article rather disappointing. It claims to reconstruct the collapse dynamics with informations stemming from that secret surveillance video, but in effect nothing significant is being said which was not already known.
Also, they assume that the Venezuelan Maracaibo bridge had concrete prestressed cable stays too, before being replaced "by cables with a protective sheath, but no concrete". This is wrong, this bridge was a cable only bridge from the beginning. All cables got replaced after one cable broke. The cable layout was then changed too. Initially the cables were routed over iron saddles on the tower heads (therefore spanning along both sides of the tower). The new cables were made replaceable, each single cable ending at the tower heads on dedicated fixations.


----------



## sbondorf

krisu99 said:


> For a noble newspaper, I found the article rather disappointing. It claims to reconstruct the collapse dynamics with informations stemming from that secret surveillance video, but in effect nothing significant is being said which was not already known.
> Also, they assume that the Venezuelan Maracaibo bridge had concrete prestressed cable stays too, before being replaced "by cables with a protective sheath, but no concrete". This is wrong, this bridge was a cable only bridge from the beginning. All cables got replaced after one cable broke. The cable layout was then changed too. Initially the cables were routed over iron saddles on the tower heads (therefore spanning along both sides of the tower). The new cables were made replaceable, each single cable ending at the tower heads on dedicated fixations.


Speaking of collapse dynamics: The article fails to properly explain what exactly made the tower come down. The graphics in the article suggest that both the southern stays snapped - simultaneously, despite not being directly connected to one another - causing the deck to fall and the central supporting pier to partially collapse - but leaving the high tower largely intact. Then, in the next graphic, the, now fully unloaded, tower just falls as by magic forces ...
Elsewhere I have seen a Danish professor come up with a better description of the chain reaction Something like this: One of the southern stays (the weakest one) snaps first. Relieved from one stay out of four, the forces on the tower top are no longer balanced. As a result, the tower is immidiately subjected to a powerful twisting force caused by the remaining southern stay and counteracted by the intact northern stays. The twisting motion manages to decisively weaken the tower (probably ripping tons of internal stress cables and rebar and cracking the concrete everywhere) before the three overloaded stays fail, one after the other in some (yet unknown) order, causing the deck to fall. Then the tower, delayed because it has been relieved from the deck's weight but doomed nonethelsess, finally loses the remaining ability to carry its own weight, and also falls. Even if the actual tower collapse may have been prompted by a piece of deck striking the tower base, the main point of this explanation lies in the weakening happening at the top of the tower. Which illustrates the whole problem of the construction as such: not enough resilience and redundancy - and certainly no ability to survive the loss of just one stay.


----------



## g.spinoza

The contract awarded to Sis Consortium for the construction of Rome-Latina motorway was annulled after an appeal by the second-in-line, Salini-Impregilo.

Basically everything has to be redone from scratch.


----------



## brick84

*Messina, Sicily*

*Junctions of "Giostra" and "Annunziata" *



updating works from above





logan1975 said:


>


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is there any update on the A14 repairs at Bologna after that big explosion?


----------



## intersezioni

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is there any update on the A14 repairs at Bologna after that big explosion?












work in progress, pics: https://www.ilrestodelcarlino.it/bologna/cronaca/incidente-a14-1.4117870
opening to traffic from mid-October


----------



## mistikos

The "Canal Grande" viaduct, near San Nicola Arcella, along SS18, is one of the most dangerous viaducts in Calabria; when there's strong side wind, the viaduct oscillates. Here is a photo:


----------



## keber

brick84 said:


> *Messina, Sicily*
> 
> *Junctions of "Giostra" and "Annunziata" *
> 
> updating works from above


I see they are rebuilding some viaducts. Is it plan to rebuild them all?


----------



## MichiH

Wasn't there an Autostrada viaduct on Sicily being closed and temporarily bypassed? Where was it and is it opened again?


----------



## Ugo Fantozzi

MichiH said:


> Wasn't there an Autostrada viaduct on Sicily being closed and temporarily bypassed? Where was it and is it opened again?


http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/2018/video/agrigento-ponte-morandi-chiuso_3081352.shtml


----------



## g.spinoza

Ugo Fantozzi said:


> http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/2018/video/agrigento-ponte-morandi-chiuso_3081352.shtml


I don't think this is the bridge MichiH mentioned, because it's not a motorway one.

I guess he was talking about Himera, on the A19 between Palermo and Enna. It happened on 10 April 2015, and this newspaper article states that in February 2018 the replacement works were tendered and they will begin on second half of 2019.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> I guess he was talking about Himera, on the A19 between Palermo and Enna. It happened on 10 April 2015, and this newspaper article states that in February 2018 the replacement works were tendered and they will begin on second half of 2019.


Yes, that's it  I remember that the motorway was closed and bypassed but OSM and Google Maps show the motorway open all the way from Palermo to Enna. Do I just remember wrong or is one carriageway still in service? 2-laned traffic on one carriageway?


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> Yes, that's it  I remember that the motorway was closed and bypassed but OSM and Google Maps show the motorway open all the way from Palermo to Enna. Do I just remember wrong or is one carriageway still in service? 2-laned traffic on one carriageway?


I corrected OSM, as far as I know the viaduct was demolished. You can see this in satellite view in google maps.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/9...14f7aa73f53cbfe7!8m2!3d37.8119687!4d14.004854

You can also see the bypass, on the East (right) of the motorway, spanning from "Scillato" junction to a new temporary southbound-only junction just south of the demolished bridge.


----------



## MichiH

^^ That means, the northbound carriageway is in service but the southbound carriageway is closed and bypassed:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.84461/13.91686

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37....7.8463009,13.9132734,16.04z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37..../@37.8467864,13.9101364,16z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0

I had checked only northbound on GM. When I'll drive northbound next spring, I can clinch the route


----------



## brick84

keber said:


> I see they are rebuilding some viaducts. Is it plan to rebuild them all?


As i know, there are going to rebuild them all.


----------



## g.spinoza

Two months after the scary explosion last August, A14 and Tangenziale in Bologna will reopen next Monday.


https://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/not...splosione-6-agosto-091540.shtml?uuid=AE91cRBG


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> http://www.umbriaon.it/ss-orte-civitavecchia-tempi-lunghi-e-timori/
> 
> To be opened anytime in September or October (which usually means the latter).


Nope, I was too optimistic. SS675 Monte Romano-East – Cinelli is now reported to be opened "by the end of the year".

http://www.viterbonews24.it/news/trasversale,-il-nuovo-tratto-prontoentro-la-fine-dellanno_88643.htm
https://www.ilmessaggero.it/viterbo...rsi_che_frenano_il_completamento-3994609.html
https://www.terzobinario.it/trasversale-entro-lanno-taglio-del-nastro-per-monte-romano-est/143298


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *SS96 Barese:* Toritto – Modungo/Bitetto 9km (December 2013 to 2018?) – ? – map
> *SS96 Barese:* Altamura-South (SS99) – north of Altamura 3.4km (October 2015 to February 2019) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
> *SS99 Barese:* Altamura-South (SS96) – south of Altamura-South 1.0km (October 2015 to February 2019) – ? – map


The 9km section is to be completed "by the end of the year" and the other section(s) "by the first months of next year".

http://www.baritoday.it/cronaca/lavori-bari-altamura-matera-statale-96-apertura-cantieri.html (August 31)


----------



## intersezioni

20 days in advance, the Bologna motorway was reopened after the explosion of the gas tank


----------



## intersezioni

20 days in advance, today the Bologna motorway was reopened after the explosion of the gas tank


----------



## g.spinoza

One of the largest construction companies in Italy, Astaldi Group, is about to go bankrupt. It already asked for accession to the equivalent of American Chapter 11.
In Italy, project Quadrilatero SS76 works are now stopped for this reason.

One of the largest accomplishments abroad by Astaldi was the construction of the Third Bosphorus Bridge. 
The largest Italian construction company, Salini-Impregilo, is said to be interested in the acquisition of Astaldi Group.

https://www.repubblica.it/economia/...regilo_sonda_un_eventuale_acquisto-208076815/


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## ChrisZwolle

Astaldi is doing a lot of projects abroad as well.


----------



## Suburbanist

It will be a bumpy ride for Italian construction companies, since the reckless fiscal policies of the government are raising the corporate debt spreads in Italy vs. other core EURO area countries.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Italian construction companies have expanded a lot outside of Italy, especially in Poland and Romania. Is it considered a lucrative market, or do they need to because of a lack of projects inside of Italy?


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Italian construction companies have expanded a lot outside of Italy, especially in Poland and Romania. Is it considered a lucrative market, or do they need to because of a lack of projects inside of Italy?


I don't think a construction company can survive anywhere without international projects, except maybe for few large countries.


----------



## intersezioni

I am "close" to the situation, knowing the mayor of Genoa the bridge will be completed by 2019, confirmed many times by the mayor who is an honest person and speech.
For the question AUTOSTRADE we must calculate the "legal" part to who will give reason but the intentions are those

"La direttiva 2014/25 regola in particolare le “procedure d’appalto degli enti erogatori nei settori dell’acqua, dell’energia, dei trasporti e dei servizi postali”. All’articolo 44 , che disciplina la scelta della procedura da utilizzare per i vari appalti, stabilisce (al quinto comma) che “Nei casi e nelle circostanze specifici espressamente previsti all’articolo 50, gli Stati membri possono prevedere che gli enti aggiudicatori ricorrano a una procedura negoziata senza previa indizione di gara. Gli Stati membri non consentono l’applicazione di tale procedura in casi diversi da quelli di cui all’articolo 50”.

The responsible for European transport has given her green light


----------



## g.spinoza

intersezioni said:


> I am "close" to the situation, knowing the mayor of Genoa the bridge will be completed by 2019, confirmed many times by the mayor who is an honest person and speech.
> For the question AUTOSTRADE we must calculate the "legal" part to who will give reason but the intentions are those


It is not a matter of honesty, but of technical timing. Honesty and speed are usually mutually exclusive.

Anyway, we'll see.


----------



## intersezioni

g.spinoza said:


> It is not a matter of honesty, but of technical timing. Honesty and speed are usually mutually exclusive.
> 
> Anyway, we'll see.


If they choose Fincantieri, they build cruise ships that are as big as a mountain in a year, working 24/7 on 24/7 is possible.
They built 2015 expo in 6 months  a simple bridge is not a titanic enterprise


----------



## g.spinoza

intersezioni said:


> If they choose Fincantieri, they build cruise ships that are as big as a mountain in a year, working 24/7 on 24/7 is possible.
> They built 2015 expo in 6 months  a simple bridge is not a titanic enterprise


"Building" something doesn't start with putting down the first stone.
First there is the tender, then time for appeals, then the project, duly revised, then the definitive project, then the executive project, all of them involving different subjects. I don't know if, being a replacement instead of a new construction, the EIA must be provided too...

A bridge can be "built" in one year, but with all the bureaucracy involved, I'm sure it cannot.


----------



## intersezioni

sperem c'mon! :lol:


----------



## pccvspw999

intersezioni said:


> No confusion, the demolition will take place before Christmas 2018, the company AUTOSTRADE will participate in the demolition but *will not rebuild the bridge* that will have to be finished by Christmas 2019.
> Moreover, *the Italian state will revoke the concession to the Autostrade company on that stretch of road and pay for all that it has to pay*.
> There are many projects but the definitive choice will be made by the extraordinary commissioner for the reconstruction that is the mayor of Genoa.
> However, everything will be completed by Christmas 2019.


I won't subscribe these two statements in bold characters.
One second after the "special commissioner" signed his decree which excludes Autostrade from the rebuild, a certified letter will start from their legal office that they are relieved from any responsability, as the act violates the concession act itself. And this means that Autostrade will not pay, at least until they will be found guilty by a court. And this is far from beeing likely, not at this moment.

What is happening is only a result from the hysteric externations of minister Toninelli in those days.

The one and only pragmatic way to solve this matter would have been keeping Autostrade in their responsability as concessionary, let them rebuild the bridge as it was already forseen within the project "Gronda di Ponente" (the project presented by Autostrade is at state of "definitive design", and it theirs), and let the process of revoking the concession to make it's run. And this would have been the far more fast procedure.

My forecast: no bridge standing before end 2020, and massive law suits running for billions from Autostrade against the Government, if Autostrade will not partecipate to the rebuild. Unless Autostrade gives up spontaneously it's right and duties, sticking willingly to the commisioners decisions.


----------



## italystf

Excessive pressure to build the bridge fast could lead to planning or construction defects that may cause problems in the future. Better wait a year more and have a safe bridge that will last for a while without wasting tons of money in repairs.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How is the detour working out for the traffic flow?

I wish there was more detailed traffic volume data for Italian motorways. This was discussed earlier in this thread but so far only some raw figures for longer distances were found, not the typical AADT data for each segment (between two exits).


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> How is the detour working out for the traffic flow?
> 
> I wish there was more detailed traffic volume data for Italian motorways. This was discussed earlier in this thread but so far only some raw figures for longer distances were found, not the typical AADT data for each segment (between two exits).


I never heard of queues due to the loss of the bridge, on other motorways. Of course, inside the city there are many problems.


----------



## italystf

Recent photo of the Tagliamento bridge on A4









http://www.udinetoday.it/cronaca/a4-terza-corsia-maltempo-sospesi-lavori-ponte-tagliamento.html

Left: old bridge that will be demolished in few months
Middle: future bridge, to be used by eastbound traffic
Left: newly-built bridge, to be open soon for both directions, and intended to be used for westbound traffic once booth bridges are completed.


----------



## g.spinoza

Interesting, I thought the old bridge was to be reused for one direction.


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> Interesting, I thought the old bridge was to be reused for one direction.


No, it is too narrow for three lanes and too old, also openings for water are too small.


----------



## italystf

They said that its conditions are not the best possible. It's not that it's about to fall, but it's still a 50-years-old bridge that will likely require a lot of checks and maintenance in the future. Also the bridge over Piave was rebuilt from scratch and the old one demolished.


----------



## g.spinoza

Days of very bad weather all over Italy.

In Liguria, SP227 is closed due to a slide and Portofino is unreachable by land:


















In Trentino-South Tirol, Stelvio pass is closed due to heavy snowfall (more than 2 m in 72 hours, of which 80 cm in the last 8 hours). 180 people are stranded there:









In Latium, a tornado run through the center of Terracina (city of 50 thousand), breaking down ALL the trees on the main promenade and killing two:

















Two other people were killed in a similar accident in Castrocielo, a little town nearby:


----------



## Autobahn-mann

g.spinoza said:


> Interesting, I thought the old bridge was to be reused for one direction.


Me too


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Old A4 bridge over Piave river was not used or widened but built from scratch, so why would old bridge be used here over Tagliamento river?


Maybe because not all bridges are the same?
Maybe because I didn't know (or didn't remember) that the old bridge over Piave was demolished?

There could be a lot of reasons :cheers:


----------



## intersezioni

With the marriage between the Italian Atlantia (company that controls AUTOSTRADE) and the Spanish Abertis, perfected today, a global leading infrastructural group is born, n°1 at the world , present in 14 countries (Italy, Spain, France, UK, Ireland, Croatia and Poland in Europe; United States, Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Colombia and India), which has a total of 32 thousand employees. The combined assets of the two groups total 14,095 kilometers of toll roads, while the airport system serves over 60 million passengers a year. On the income statement front, Atlantia and Abertis then count, on the basis of the aggregate data for 2017, 11 billion in revenues and an ebitda of 7.1 billion euro.
The latter figure is mainly attributable to the over 2.6 billion euro of Italian motorways, 3.7 billion euro for foreign motorways, 550 million for Italian airports (the Roman airport system with Fiumicino and Ciampino), 95 million for airports. of the French Riviera.
The Abertis operation represents for Atlantia one of the most important stages on the road to internationalization. A path that saw between 2006 and 2012 the entry into fast-growing markets such as Brazil, Chile, India, Poland with 2000 kilometers of toll roads and then in 2016 the acquisition of the airports of the French Riviera with a dowry 13 million passengers and over 100 destinations.
The Italian company Atlantia will be the majority shareholder of the company
"It is a success of Italian entrepreneurship, to which we would all have wished that Gilberto could have participated today.This is one of the most important collaborative projects between Italian and Spanish groups, which will make Abertis an even stronger player in the global panorama" , concludes Castellucci ( CEO of Atlantia)
More info : https://notizie.tiscali.it/export/s...c053c488e81299f82f0f1e1fd54.jpg_997313609.jpg


----------



## g.spinoza

Yesterday a 10 km section of new SS38 in province Sondrio (Lombardy) was inaugurated. It is a single-carriageway, two-lane road that starts from the end of the two-carriageway, four-lane road opened in 2013 in Cosio, bypasses Morbegno with two long tunnels and ends on a roundabout with the old SS38 before Ardenno.


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## g.spinoza

The feasibility study for SS49 Perca bypass, in South Tirol, has been approved.

The new road will feature a 2317 m tunnel under the village of Villa di Sotto and will cost 70 M€.

http://www.provincia.bz.it/news/it/news.asp?news_action=4&news_article_id=619586#


----------



## italystf

A bridge collapsed on SR355 near Comeglians, in Carnia (Friuli Venezia Giulia).






Several roads are temporarily unpassable in northern Friuli, due to floodings, landslides and fallen trees.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*SS 21 Colle della Maddalena*

I took some photos of SS 21 at/near the Colle della Maddalena (1991 / 1996 m). It's on the French border, the pass is named the Col de Larche in French. The road is part of the route from Gap to Cuneo and is one of the few year-round passes between Italy and France. There is a 26 ton weight limit but there is some truck traffic including complete tractor-trailer units.


SS21 Colle della Maddalena-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS21 Colle della Maddalena-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

Traffic is alternating through the village of Argentera, controlled by traffic lights at either end of the village.

SS21 Colle della Maddalena-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

View along SS 21

SS21 Colle della Maddalena-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

The endpoint of SS 21 at the French border.

SS21 Colle della Maddalena-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col de Larche-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col de Larche-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## g.spinoza

During these days of bad weather, river Po overflew and some roads in the countryside near Turin have been closed:


----------



## italystf

The pontoon bridge across Piave mouth connecting Jesolo and Eraclea was broken into pieces and sunk by a flood last Sunday.














https://www.ilmessaggero.it/italia/maltempo_piave_travolge_ponte_barche_jesolo-4086521.html

It was a private bridge, each car had to pay 0.90€ to cross it.


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## Wilhem275

There's another one a bit upstream (just south of the A4 bridge). It's just dumb to have those things, they were meant for dire times and now they're just a way for someone to tax who drives there.


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## g.spinoza

From a desert to a busy road: A35 "BreBeMi" traffic grows from 20 to 40 % per year.

https://bergamo.corriere.it/notizie...on-5796a546-e29a-11e8-86b9-0879a24c1aca.shtml

It will grow even more, now that Amazon decided to install one of their logistic centers along it.


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## MichiH

^^ hno:

Did it grow from 100 vehicles/day to 120 and now to 168 vehicles/day? These numbers make no sense without absolute figures.

btw: I drove A35 from Brescia to Milano last September and I was almost alone there...


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> ^^ hno:
> 
> Did it grow from 100 vehicles/day to 120 and now to 168 vehicles/day? These numbers make no sense without absolute figures.


You know well it isn't so...

AADT is now 25000, which, as they admit, is still far from the break-even point.


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## Verso

How is 25,000 vpd a busy road? Especially when we're talking about a 6-lane motorway.


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## ChrisZwolle

25,000 with a competing motorway in the same corridor isn't a bad figure for a start. 

We've become so accustomed with high volume motorways that a lower volume is seen as an oddity. Most older motorways started somewhere in that range as well. It also takes time for people to "discover" the new motorway, a ramp-up period of 3-5 years is not uncommon.

Many toll road projects are based on unrealistic traffic projections, as if full potential and big revenue can be achieved within a few years. It takes more time, especially for toll roads.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> You know well it isn't so...
> 
> AADT is now 25000, which, as they admit, is still far from the break-even point.


Of course I know that it's more than 100 vehicles but I had no clue about the absolute figures. The news article is not indicating it. 25,000 is fine for a 2x2 motorway but it's still way too less for 2x3. What's your source for 25,000 vehicles/day? Is it the top section or the section with least traffic?


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## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> How is 25,000 vpd a busy road? Especially when we're talking about a 6-lane motorway.


It's not.
But if it keeps growing 40% per year...


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> Of course I know that it's more than 100 vehicles but I had no clue about the absolute figures. The news article is not indicating it. 25,000 is fine for a 2x2 motorway but it's still way too less for 2x3. What's your source for 25,000 vehicles/day? Is it the top section or the section with least traffic?


I read it here
http://www.bresciaoggi.it/home/spazio-lettori/lettere/brebemi-i-conti-che-non-tornano-1.6750128

But I'm not so sure... few years ago they were talking about 22 thousand...
This article is against BreBeMi so they could have taken an old figure...

EDIT: Yes it's an old figure.
Soon after the opening of A4 connection it boosted to more than 30thousand, so I guess now they should be around 40 thousand...


----------



## intersezioni

the demolition of the Morandi bridge will take place on December 15th


----------



## g.spinoza

intersezioni said:


> the demolition of the Morandi bridge will take place on December 15th


What do you mean? I don't think they can tear it down in one day, can't they?


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## Wilhem275

Will _begin_ on the 15th...


----------



## Eddard Stark

g.spinoza said:


> From a desert to a busy road: A35 "BreBeMi" traffic grows from 20 to 40 % per year.
> 
> https://bergamo.corriere.it/notizie...on-5796a546-e29a-11e8-86b9-0879a24c1aca.shtml
> 
> It will grow even more, now that Amazon decided to install one of their logistic centers along it.


10 years from now it will be busy and people will say "can you believe that there were people that thought it was useless?"

I am glad that Bre-be-mi, tangenziale est and some pieces of pedemontana were done before this dark age of infrastructures. I think it will be some years, maybe decades, before we see new motorways in lombardy or italy in general


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## intersezioni

Wilhem275 said:


> Will _begin_ on the 15th...


yes, sorry


----------



## legolego

ChrisZwolle said:


> 25,000 with a competing motorway in the same corridor isn't a bad figure for a start.
> 
> We've become so accustomed with high volume motorways that a lower volume is seen as an oddity. Most older motorways started somewhere in that range as well. It also takes time for people to "discover" the new motorway, a ramp-up period of 3-5 years is not uncommon.
> 
> Many toll road projects are based on unrealistic traffic projections, as if full potential and big revenue can be achieved within a few years. It takes more time, especially for toll roads.





MichiH said:


> Of course I know that it's more than 100 vehicles but I had no clue about the absolute figures. The news article is not indicating it. 25,000 is fine for a 2x2 motorway but it's still way too less for 2x3. What's your source for 25,000 vehicles/day? Is it the top section or the section with least traffic?





g.spinoza said:


> I read it here
> http://www.bresciaoggi.it/home/spazio-lettori/lettere/brebemi-i-conti-che-non-tornano-1.6750128
> 
> But I'm not so sure... few years ago they were talking about 22 thousand...
> This article is against BreBeMi so they could have taken an old figure...
> 
> EDIT: Yes it's an old figure.
> Soon after the opening of A4 connection it boosted to more than 30thousand, so I guess now they should be around 40 thousand...


According to BREBMI S.p.a. business plan, the 2023 is expected to be the "regime" year, and the TGM projection is up to 53.000 vheicles (28% TIR). 
We will see...


----------



## g.spinoza

There is currently in Turin an issue with a roundabout, officially called "Piazza Generale Baldissera", which has become in the last few months a black hole of the city's traffic.

It is built on what is called "Spina" a major north-south boulevard that is been built on space left free by the Milan-Turin railway, moved underground for 10 years. The Spina, still incomplete, is supposed to connect the very heart of the city to the motorway to the airport and the ringroad, and sparked many other construction sites and road rearrangements.

The issue is that in it, 13 carriageways converge and often during peak hours it becomes a total gridlock. Crossing times of up to 50 minutes are reported:



















The original project included an underpass between boulevards Vigevano and Mortara (left-right on the previous pictures) which was never built. Current mayor of Turin comes from 5 stelle party, notoriously against any construction, so she already announced the underpass will not be built. Their solution for now is closing some of the accesses to the roundabout and see what will happen. hno:
The situation is going to change when, in the near future, rails for tram #10 will be built in the roundabout so I think traffic lights will have to be employed.

I live less than a km from there :bash:


----------



## Wilhem275

This is part of the roundabout obsession which hit Italy in the past 10 years (and counting...).

Roundabouts everywhere, especially at large junctions, with no prior evaluation of their actual performance.
Cities will override any basic safety design principle to fix them in any given space. Especially with multi lane roads.
By law a roundabout cannot have more than 1 lane per exit (which makes a lot of sense), but designers constantly disregard this.

Level of planning: "Let traffic sort it out somehow".

What's really dumb is that in many cases they replaced old traffic lights without even trying to evolve them first.
Adaptive traffic lights are extremely efficient, but if the comparison is made with old "fixed program" machines the roundabout will clearly appear more flexible... icard:

Updating traffic lights costs a few k€; building a roundabout means 100-1000 times as much.


This is the latest crap they're trying in Padua:





















First rule of roundabout design: don't let roads plow straight into them...


----------



## MichiH

Wilhem275 said:


> This is the latest crap they're trying in Padua:


I've been there two months ago and didn't understand what they are building. It looks so odd and I cannot remember that I've seen any worker... German construction company?


----------



## Stuu

g.spinoza said:


> There is currently in Turin an issue with a roundabout, officially called "Piazza Generale Baldissera", which has become in the last few months a black hole of the city's traffic


Italy is such a land of total extremes, there is some absolutely amazing infrastructure and then there is some that is unbelievably bad. Likewise some of the most beautiful buildings and some of the most hideous. I guess 'compromise' is a dirty word in Italy!

Seriously though, why not just put some traffic lights in, temporary ones could be set up in a day or two, even for somewhere that complicated


----------



## Verso

Am I blind? I don't see any roundabout in the pics from Padova.


----------



## Wilhem275

MichiH said:


> I've been there two months ago and didn't understand what they are building. It looks so odd and I cannot remember that I've seen any worker... German construction company?


There were no workers because this temporary setup was considered "experimental", so for a few weeks they just let it run like this to test the results.

Today I saw some digging works, so I guess they're satisfied with the results.

The mistake here is how this satisfaction is measured. If it's in terms of traffic flow, then of course this setup is better: it replaced a set of VERY badly programmed traffic lights.
Reprogramming the lights first? Not even discussed.

Italian politics tend to prosper on false dichotomies: a crappy solution is deemed "better" than an even crappier solution, and if I don't allow any other alternatives then "better" means "best".



Stuu said:


> Italy is such a land of total extremes, there is some absolutely amazing infrastructure and then there is some that is unbelievably bad. Likewise some of the most beautiful buildings and some of the most hideous. I guess 'compromise' is a dirty word in Italy!


The reason behind these contrasts is that we have some excellent minds, who can provide remarkable works, but having an extremely hard time emerging from a sea of mediocrity.

A strong cultural trait is the opposition to the idea of competition. Most people fear losing in a direct confrontation, so they prefer looking for some kind of default agreement. "Peace of mind" is preferred over the idea that the winner must prove to be the best.
This has roots in the cultural/religious concept that personal wealth is a sin (even if obtained in honest ways), and extends to the idea that any personal advantage -like being better than others in a field- is something to be ashamed of.
If I know I have shady ways, anyone richer or better than me must for sure be shadier... :nuts:

When this comes to politics it means that the majority is not looking for merit - on the contrary, it is even looked with suspicion.
The average politician is a very mediocre professional, not capable to evaluate choices, so you end up with a large number of very mediocre policies and projects.

Luckily wise people still fight for better ideas, and sometimes they emerge, but it's a very hard fight in some thick mud... you are constantly dragged back down.




Verso said:


> Am I blind? I don't see any roundabout in the pics from Padova.


You're in good company...  
Don't look for a shape of a circle, it's rather a long sausage :lol: where the truck is turning, it's following the "roundabout"; then look at the far end of those red and white Jersey barriers and you'll see the other half of it.


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> There is currently in Turin an issue with a roundabout, officially called "Piazza Generale Baldissera", which has become in the last few months a black hole of the city's traffic.


Semaphorizing and turbo-layouting this roundabout is not an option? It increases traffic capacity considerably. Are there any turbo roundabouts in Italy? I never noticed one.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Semaphorizing and turbo-layouting this roundabout is not an option? It increases traffic capacity considerably. Are there any turbo roundabouts in Italy? I never noticed one.


I am pretty confident the idea itself of a turbo roundabout is unknown, in Italy.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

Wilhem275 said:


> This is part of the roundabout obsession which hit Italy in the past 10 years (and counting...).
> 
> Roundabouts everywhere, especially at large junctions, with no prior evaluation of their actual performance.
> […]
> Level of planning: "Let traffic sort it out somehow".
> 
> What's really dumb is that in many cases they replaced old traffic lights without even trying to evolve them first.
> Adaptive traffic lights are extremely efficient, but if the comparison is made with old "fixed program" machines the roundabout will clearly appear more flexible... icard:
> 
> Updating traffic lights costs a few k€; building a roundabout means 100-1000 times as much.


That's because the Public Administrations thinks that roundabout are a sort of "panacea", a simply solution for all problems!
It's too difficult, and they are too lazy to think o search another solution or made a comparison.
Also they didn't consider the irreversibility (at least) of this "solution".
Adding the lacking maintenance, driving on urban, local and secondary roads in Italy it's becoming an agony!


----------



## Suburbanist

Roundabouts are really great to reduce severe collisions. However, they must be properly designed. That roundabout in _Torino_ looks badly designed: too many lanes converging, creating conflicts unless traffic flows were very skewed on both directions.

They need a turbo roundabout. That is the way to go. Possibly with traffic lights. A turbo roundabout with traffic lights works better than a 4-way intersection with traffic lights and is much safer.


----------



## pccvspw999

Also staying still and firm avoids severe collisions, that's non the purpose of road. It's not only a matter of design, some roads shall not be reduced in capacity and speed by placing a stupid roundabout, only because it's cheaper than a traffic light or making without at-grade crossings.
Of course: if in addition to this, the roundabout is badly designed...uke:


----------



## Suburbanist

pccvspw999 said:


> Also staying still and firm avoids severe collisions, that's non the purpose of road. It's not only a matter of design, some roads shall not be reduced in capacity and speed by* placing a stupid roundabout, only because it's cheaper than a traffic light *or making without at-grade crossings.
> Of course: if in addition to this, the roundabout is badly designed...uke:


Roundabouts are never cheaper than traffic lights! Unless you are talking about those with a barely raised pavement and a small circle drawn in pain. 

Roundabouts are not necessarily low capacity. Check this video


----------



## Wilhem275

To gain capacity, a roundabout must be very wide. This can never happen where a simple intersection was regulated by lights.

The other big issue is safety. Roundabouts are often sold as safer because they reduce the number of conflicting movements.










This is true only if the circle is so wide that all vehicles will have to follow the same path, and they must follow a bend to enter (thus slowing down).
When they squeeze one in a tight space it always ends up with a very small central island, otherwise large vehicle get stuck. The effect is that cars can run through it, cutting paths and not slowing down at all.


The result is a loss of safety, because such designs award who races faster and cuts lanes through the whole thing.


----------



## Verso

I like roundabouts, especially turboroundabouts, but I don't like too many in a row. Also, if there's a lot of traffic, people aren't so careful when entering them, which becomes dangerous (although only for breaking cars, not so much injuring people).


----------



## g.spinoza

Wilhem275 said:


> To gain capacity, a roundabout must be very wide. This can never happen where a simple intersection was regulated by lights.


Well, in Piazza Generale Baldissera one thing that's not lacking, is space.


----------



## Wilhem275

Still it's too tight to accommodate all those roads with a proper bend for each one. Had it been large enough... it wouldn't have capacity issues.
A roundabout eats up LOTS of space.


----------



## g.spinoza

Wilhem275 said:


> Still it's too tight to accommodate all those roads with a proper bend for each one. Had it been large enough... it wouldn't have capacity issues.
> A roundabout eats up LOTS of space.


Believe me, it is one of the largest roundabouts I've ever seen. If this is not large enough, none is.
Capacity issues come from the fact that there are too many roads converging into it. Moreover, there is a bike/foot path which circles it all around its outer rim: whenever someone crosses (and it happens a lot because there are a huge shopping mall and a railway station close to it) all traffic has to stop. 
A turbo roundabout would work just fine.


----------



## mistikos

SS682 Jonio-Tirreno, from Gioiosa Jonica to Rosarno:


----------



## keber

^^ This superstrada is actually really impressive with spectacular objects and surroundings (I drove there in 2007) but why showing it in nighttime? Reminds me of those black "funny" postcards of "[insert_city] at night",


----------



## intersezioni

ho sbagliato! sorry


----------



## keber

intersezioni said:


> News from Genoa:
> 
> by Monday 26 November, about twenty companies involved will have to present their project. The commissioner will evaluate them (following some procedures established by the decree, including the anti-mafia checks) and will assign the work: by December 15 the way to dismantling and from early April the reconstruction. By Christmas 2019 the mayor wants to see the bridge completed: "Maybe it will not be feasible yet because it has to be tested - he said the other night - but I want to see it finished".
> 
> The timing is so stringent that it is very likely that Bucci and his men have very clear ideas about which project to choose: after all the same commissioner has admitted to be even ahead of the times he had imagined.
> 
> Many are the possible companies to be involved in what should be an association between several companies: in addition to Fincantieri, involved by the Government since the early days, Ansaldo also said he was ready to cooperate.


That would be the fastest growing large bridge in the world, by far. Even Chinese are not that fast. Maybe for Christmas 2020 but even this is optimistic.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> I am pretty confident the idea itself of a turbo roundabout is unknown, in Italy.


I don't think we have any turbo roundabout, probably our highway code doesn't allow them. I've only see them in Slovenia.


----------



## belerophon

Discussions come up again and again. 

The comparison of price is something, which depends on what you calculate. The german saying: Never trust statistics you didn't style yourself. For example it is a difference if you build new or you change a existing intersection, if the land is cheap or not... and of course if you calcutalte construction only or if you include maintaining etc. 

There are big roundabouts: Riga (https://www.google.de/maps/@56.9248188,24.1069293,17.25z)
more like an egg, some 200x300 meters wide. 

In comparison this one in Turin is an egg of size 100x120 meters. 

The Great-Star in Berlin has a width of 140 meters and is used daily be 180k vehicles (and functioning)

The Place of Charles de Gaulle with the Arch of Triumph in it, is 240 meters wide which is no example for godd function, but has 12 directly merging roads...

at last: turbo-roundabouts are made for one main street with most traffic and others with less. The concept does not function so easily with 3 main roads merging... or for more than 4 roads merging at all. It is possible but makes it less effective. 

But there are a lot of options. You could add Lanes outside for vehicles who drive in and directly out again. You could style it as an egg, making it bigger, there is space for that in Turin. Of course you could add a tunnel or bridge or even both for through-traffic or any other kind of ramps. It is even possible to combine traffic lights and a roundabout. And this function can be simulated, if you have data about the traffic.

You could use the inside also, not only for art, but for building also (using underpasses for pedestrians. If clever done, much is possible.


----------



## mistikos

keber said:


> ^^ This superstrada is actually really impressive with spectacular objects and surroundings (I drove there in 2007) but why showing it in nighttime? Reminds me of those black "funny" postcards of "[insert_city] at night",


It was 5 pm when I passed... From Pizzo to Monasterace I used A2 and SS280 by Lamezia.
Next time I'll show it during the morning!


----------



## MichiH

Autobahn-mann said:


> - Italy:
> *SPV*: Thiene (A31) – Breganze-West ~4km (various sources states that will be ~7-10 km) (November 2011 to November 2018 *--> December 4th, 2018*) - map: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/45.6786/11.5277
> Sources: https://corrieredelveneto.corriere....re-16c9087e-e713-11e8-82a7-4ea97e720463.shtml
> https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=154040222&postcount=773
> https://youtu.be/zjEb_gixnDQ
> 
> Post Scriptum:
> All 2018 opening will be in 2019; and the final complete opening of entire expressway (all stretches) will be on December 31st 2020


I guess this stretch will be opened for traffic. It's about 6km but the distributor road to A31 is not motorway standard (no median). That means, about 5km of motorway-like road should be opened on 4th December, ballpark.


----------



## italystf

belerophon said:


> Discussions come up again and again.
> 
> The comparison of price is something, which depends on what you calculate. The german saying: Never trust statistics you didn't style yourself. For example it is a difference if you build new or you change a existing intersection, if the land is cheap or not... and of course if you calcutalte construction only or if you include maintaining etc.
> 
> There are big roundabouts: Riga (https://www.google.de/maps/@56.9248188,24.1069293,17.25z)
> more like an egg, some 200x300 meters wide.
> 
> In comparison this one in Turin is an egg of size 100x120 meters.
> 
> The Great-Star in Berlin has a width of 140 meters and is used daily be 180k vehicles (and functioning)
> 
> The Place of Charles de Gaulle with the Arch of Triumph in it, is 240 meters wide which is no example for godd function, but has 12 directly merging roads...
> 
> at last: turbo-roundabouts are made for one main street with most traffic and others with less. The concept does not function so easily with 3 main roads merging... or for more than 4 roads merging at all. It is possible but makes it less effective.
> 
> But there are a lot of options. You could add Lanes outside for vehicles who drive in and directly out again. You could style it as an egg, making it bigger, there is space for that in Turin. Of course you could add a tunnel or bridge or even both for through-traffic or any other kind of ramps. It is even possible to combine traffic lights and a roundabout. And this function can be simulated, if you have data about the traffic.
> 
> You could use the inside also, not only for art, but for building also (using underpasses for pedestrians. If clever done, much is possible.


The largest ever might be the one in Bari, with a diameter of around 680 meters.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0839656,16.8478758,16z


----------



## intersezioni

News from Genoa:

by Monday 26 November, about twenty companies involved will have to present their project. The commissioner will evaluate them (following some procedures established by the decree, including the anti-mafia checks) and will assign the work: by December 15 the way to dismantling and from early April the reconstruction. By Christmas 2019 the mayor wants to see the bridge completed: "Maybe it will not be feasible yet because it has to be tested - he said the other night - but I want to see it finished".

The timing is so stringent that it is very likely that Bucci and his men have very clear ideas about which project to choose: after all the same commissioner has admitted to be even ahead of the times he had imagined.

Many are the possible companies to be involved in what should be an association between several companies: in addition to Fincantieri, involved by the Government since the early days, Ansaldo also said he was ready to cooperate.


----------



## intersezioni

There are 40 offers to build the bridge, but only 2 offers are evaluated.
The first of the company CIMOLAI (Italian) with the project of Calatrava (my favorite project), the second the project of Renzo Piano with FINCANTIERI, SALINI IMPREGILO and the engineering company ITALFERR of the Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane group.
next week the mayor will select the project to be contracted
HERE THE CALATRAVA/CIMOLAI project: https://www.lastampa.it/rf/[email protected]


----------



## Eddard Stark

You will select?


----------



## intersezioni

Eddard Stark said:


> You will select?


sorry for the mistake, the mayor will select the project to be contracted


----------



## Verso

Eddard Stark said:


> You will select?


Maybe he's the mayor.


----------



## intersezioni

The CIMOLAI / CALATRAVA projects


----------



## g.spinoza

Usual Calatrava garbage.


----------



## intersezioni

g.spinoza said:


> Usual Calatrava garbage.


 exaggerated! maybe he will have stewed his style, but I find them more beautiful and symbolic of Renzo Piano's project


----------



## g.spinoza

A bridge needn't be beautiful, but useful. After that piece of sh+it in Venice, I wonder why they are still calling him.


----------



## intersezioni

g.spinoza said:


> A bridge needn't be beautiful, but useful. After that piece of sh+it in Venice, I wonder why they are still calling him.


On Venice you're absolutely right, 20 million euros for a bridge of a few meters are really too much, not to mention the slope and the glass slabs that are paving!
But his style I do not mind


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Usual Calatrava garbage.


In which sense garbage? Aestetically or structurally?


----------



## italystf

intersezioni said:


> On Venice you're absolutely right, 20 million euros for a bridge of a few meters are really too much, not to mention the slope and the glass slabs that are paving!
> But his style I do not mind


I also think that the Calatrava bridge in Venice isn't that ugly (keep in mind that it isn't in the historical centre, so a modern style is accepatble).
The problems are: it's slippery in case of ice or rain, it's fragile (many glass parts had to be replaced), it was EXTREMELY costly (it would be probably possible to build a bridge for 1/10 of the price), and it's not disable-friendly.


----------



## g.spinoza

As I said before, I don't mind ugly or beautiful, that just does not interest me.

Calatrava is an overpaid **** who thinks he's God on Earth while he's just good with the pencil and doesn't know anything about ergonomy or practicality.


----------



## Wilhem275

I do mind. An ugly structure isn't much cheaper than a nice one, there's no reason to build a depressing landmark that will last for decades.

Renzo Piano's proposal is dull and not even well designed, it has a severe conflict with future rail expansions.
It's clearly some student's exercise done years ago and pulled out of the closet after the collapse.


All Cimolai's proposals are much better in terms of design and engineering, and that firm has solid experience with this kind of stuff.


----------



## g.spinoza

Wilhem275 said:


> I do mind. An ugly structure isn't much cheaper than a nice one, there's no reason to build a depressing landmark that will last for decades.


Not true. Those stupid archistars are paid a gazillion.


----------



## General Maximus

A bridge still has to be designed, whether it's going to be an ugly one or a pretty one. I prefer things to be pretty in infrastructure and buildings.


----------



## intersezioni

Wilhem275 said:


> I do mind. An ugly structure isn't much cheaper than a nice one, there's no reason to build a depressing landmark that will last for decades.
> 
> Renzo Piano's proposal is dull and not even well designed, it has a severe conflict with future rail expansions.
> It's clearly some student's exercise done years ago and pulled out of the closet after the collapse.
> 
> 
> All Cimolai's proposals are much better in terms of design and engineering, and that firm has solid experience with this kind of stuff.


Up!


----------



## g.spinoza

Half a million cubic metres of rockslide are looming upon A5 near Quincinetto. The slide is actively monitored since 2012 and recently it seems to have accelerated: in the last month, thanks to the rain, it moved 12 cm.
Plans are underway for the motorway closure.

https://www.lastampa.it/2018/12/05/...-di-roccia-S9sAJZ7RHxowkSw6fmjsXI/pagina.html


----------



## Stuu

g.spinoza said:


> Usual Calatrava garbage.


Yes! Has he ever done anything that doesn't look exactly the same?


----------



## g.spinoza

The dig of 2-km Tunnel Boscaccio, on the A1 near Florence, has been completed.
After the completion of Tunnel Santa Lucia (7.5 km) it will be open for traffic hosting the 3-lane southbound carriageway of A1.
Fun fact: Tunnels Boscaccio and Santa Lucia will represent one of the few instances on Italian motorways where carriageway positions are inverted. Other instances can be found, for example, on A6 near Savona, A7 near Genova and A20 near Messina.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ interesting


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> Half a million cubic metres of rockslide are looming upon A5 near Quincinetto. The slide is actively monitored since 2012 and recently it seems to have accelerated: in the last month, thanks to the rain, it moved 12 cm.
> Plans are underway for the motorway closure.
> 
> https://www.lastampa.it/2018/12/05/...-di-roccia-S9sAJZ7RHxowkSw6fmjsXI/pagina.html


But on the other hand there are plans to build the motorway somewhere else, right? At least since 2012 there have to be projects and public tenders to build it.
Or are "plans ... for the motorway closure" the only ones, typical "italian way"?


----------



## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> But on the other hand there are plans to build the motorway somewhere else, right? At least since 2012 there have to be projects and public tenders to build it.


I don't know anything about such planes.



> Or are "plans ... for the motorway closure" the only ones, typical "italian way"?


I guess the closure is intended to be temporary, for the time necessary to secure the area by blasting the rocks or something similar. It was already done in the past:


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> I don't know anything about such planes.


And that's the problem! I was ironic.



> I guess the closure is intended to be temporary, for the time necessary to secure the area by blasting the rocks or something similar. It was already done in the past:


Surely, it's intended to be temporary, but it should't had come to this.


----------



## Wilhem275

It's probably just not convenient to realign a motorway to avoid a danger, if this can be fixed in a short time.

Consider it as a maintenance operation.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*SS24 Claviere*

A few photos of SS24 at Claviere, near the French border at the Colle del Monginevro (Col de Montgenèvre). It's part of the route from Oulx to Briançon (and on a grander scale, between Torino and Marseille as mentioned by g.spinoza in the French thread).

The speed limit sign is in fact 1.3 km into Italy. The Claviere bypass tunnel is entirely in Italy.


SS24 Claviere-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS24 Claviere-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS24 Claviere-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS24 Claviere-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## intersezioni

GENOA - "It will be a consortium of 10 companies to deal with the demolition of the Morandi bridge" announced the mayor-commissioner Marco Bucci, entering the power of attorney to present to the prosecutor Vittorio Ranieri Minati the project for the demolition of the viaduct, which will be discussed in course of the probative accident.

"There is no single company capable of doing all these things, it must necessarily be a consortium", explains Bucci. "It's a project that will make a good impression on the prosecutor.Times I think we will see the machines running on December 15," he announced confident.

The demolition of the Morandi bridge - he explained - will take place through a mix of mechanical disassembly and use of explosives. "A portion, the western part, will be dismantled through disassembling piece by piece - said Bucci -, a portion of the east side will instead be demolished with the explosive".

"At least 100 apartments will be demolished on 256 displaced homes, then we'll see if there will be others," Bucci said as he left the building after filing the bridge demolition plan.

primocanale.it

Bridge disassembly hypothesis:


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> Usual Calatrava garbage.


Why do I always miss the interesting discussion?

I am absolutely up to this statement. His works can suit to Qatar or UAE overdesigned projects, they can suck such things and they still find them cool. In Europe - no thanks.


----------



## devo

intersezioni said:


> [...]
> 
> Bridge disassembly hypothesis:


What an over-engineered solution – it seems they will build almost another upside-down Morandi bridge... clever but not pretty. And I can imagine that getting a fresh start with "nothing" in the way makes a better project. Now they have to engineer structures that will have quite different loads depending on it being in the demolition process or as finished bridge.

I also love the music. Sounds like the menu theme from a Need for Speed game.


----------



## intersezioni

devo said:


> What an over-engineered solution – it seems they will build almost another upside-down Morandi bridge... clever but not pretty. And I can imagine that getting a fresh start with "nothing" in the way makes a better project. Now they have to engineer structures that will have quite different loads depending on it being in the demolition process or as finished bridge.
> 
> I also love the music. Sounds like the menu theme from a Need for Speed game.


you just have to look at the disassembly.


----------



## g.spinoza

A 6.4 km section of SS 675 "Umbro-Laziale", between Monte Romano east and Cinelli di Vetralla - on the longer route A12 Civitavecchia-A1 Orte, is opened.

The stretch features three viaducts for a total of 1.3 km and three tunnels for 0.4 km.

http://www.tusciaweb.eu/2018/12/trasversale-un-altro-passo-avanti-chilometri/


----------



## Verso

^^ Those are short tunnels.


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> ^^ Those are short tunnels.


Just because it's Italy it doesn't mean there have to be long tunnels :lol::cheers:


----------



## intersezioni

Today the construction sites for the new bridge have been opened (the choice will be made by Tuesday, it will probably be the Fincantieri / Piano project: - (((for the beginning of the demolition you have to wait for the court as the area and under seizure, we talk about a few more days.
The exhibits of the bridge arrived from Switzerland.


----------



## intersezioni

GENOA - The Genoa Public Prosecutor has signed the authorization to dismantle the west stump "permanently seizing". In practice, it is not a real release from seizure: the act will serve to safeguard the disassembled finds that will remain in the same area to allow the technicians to analyze them. The work can start as soon as the document is sent to the commissioner's office. "Ten days, two weeks to see the first parts drop, much will depend on the weather situation, will be the directors of the works to manage everything", so mayor Bucci expressed his satisfaction with the authorization arrived today and thanked investigating judge and prosecutor. "It was not obvious but we expected this to show that when we work together the results come, this was not an easy decision to make, but we are all collaborating to bridge the city and give it to them quickly". And tomorrow at 16 should arrive the official announcement of those who will deal with the reconstruction of the bridge.
The mayor of Genoa and commissioner for the reconstruction, Marco Bucci, confirms that if, for the western part of the Morandi abutments, a mechanical disassembly is carried out, for the east part, above the houses, there will be more systems. "We will have six metal structures to secure the bridge - he explains - then we can work below the structure and you can reclaim the houses and buildings from the possible presence of asbestos and then proceed with the explosive."

The number of houses that will be demolished "ranges between 50 and 120", the mayor continues. The installation of the support structures will also be used to improve the viability of the Valpolcevera.


----------



## MichiH

italystf said:


> *Italy*
> 
> *SP103 (Milan):* Segrate (A51) - Segrate 1.3 km (October 2017 to December 2018)
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/45.4824/9.2713
> 
> http://www.paolomicheli.it/cassanese-bis/


To be opened September 2019 according to a news article from March 2018.




MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> *SS96 Barese:* Toritto – Modungo/Bitetto 9km (December 2013 to 2018?) – ? – map
> *SS96 Barese:* Altamura-South (SS99) – north of Altamura 3.4km (October 2015 to February 2019) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
> *SS99 Barese:* Altamura-South (SS96) – south of Altamura-South 1.0km (October 2015 to February 2019) – ? – map
> 
> 
> 
> The 9km section is to be completed "by the end of the year" and the other section(s) "by the first months of next year".
> 
> http://www.baritoday.it/cronaca/lavori-bari-altamura-matera-statale-96-apertura-cantieri.html (August 31)
Click to expand...

Italian Minister for the South was on-site and did only see slowness and too less workers, delays especially near Modungo (November 23)

Completion times have been re-scheduled (December 4)

I couldn't find any new deadline. Does anyone have more info? Are all sections delayed or only Toritto – Modungo?




italystf said:


> SS640 should be completed by 31 December 2018.


Risk of suspension; Disastrous news; Crisis of Cmc (December 9)

Google Translated: "Both on the Palermo-Agrigento and on the SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta to carry out the work with *serious delays* is the Cmc of Ravenna in Ati, today in obvious economic difficulty it *asks for more time*, time that the local inhabitants of Agrigento are no longer willing to give, and neither do I!" (December 12) 

I guess Cmc is the construction company, isn't it?




MichiH said:


> *SS729:* Berchidda – Monti-West 9.4km (June 2014 to 2018?) – project – map
> *SS729:* Monti-West – Monti/Telti 6.4km (February 2015 to 2018?) – project – map


There was no info about the estimated opening for a while and it has not been opened according to OSM. Does anyone know more? Is 2019 likely?




MichiH said:


> *SR8:* Talsano-North – Pulsano-East 11km (August 2014 to 2018?) – ? – map


Any info about this? I could only find this:

Regional road 8. Borraccino: "from the meeting this afternoon in the Region a decided accelerated for the realization of the work" (November 7)

Is it the same project or the next lot? I read something about "contract in 2019"? A new contract to be signed in 2019?


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Rendering shows an object, not surroundings - I thought that on SSC people already understand architect's logic of presenting his masterpiece ...


Yes, and the architect's logic, as well as the rendering, is ridiculous.


----------



## Coccodrillo

I write here, but the French thread would also be suitable.

Some years ago I read that the target of both states was to have 1/3 of truck traffic on the Mont Blanc and 2/3 on the Fréjus. I wonder if this will change with the second tube. Some reasons why truck traffic might start to be forced to use the Fréjus:

1) the Mont Blanc serves more touristic areas, so there is an incentive to put the trucks away
2) it has no real safety tunnel (just a passage under the roadway, which is less safer in case of fire)
3) it is single tube, while in the Fréjus the two directions will be separated
4) the access roads to it are less good than on the Fréjus (especially the westbound N205)
5) it already has more restrictions on trucks, because of point 1, for instance lower euro classes were forbidden earlier
6) it is narrower than the Fréjus
7) it might be a way to politically support the construction of the Fréjus base tunnel (new Lyon-Turin railway) which is heavily opposed in Italy


----------



## intersezioni

since yesterday, the stabilization procedures of the bridge section in the Ventimiglia direction are under way to be able to later fix the necessary equipment for dismantling the bridge


----------



## Verso

Does anyone remember how you had to drive from the Slovenian border at Fernetti to Venice before RA 14 was built in 1997? Did you have to drive through Villa Opicina, this way?


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## keber

Yes, over old road through the town.


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## Verso

It's strange that they didn't build a temporary interchange with the RA 13 motorway, built already in 1988.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Colle del Gran San Bernardo*

I made a video of SS 27 climbing up the Gran San Bernardo Pass (2469 m). It's a very scenic road.


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## keber

Verso said:


> It's strange that they didn't build a temporary interchange with the RA 13 motorway, built in 1988.


RA 14 was planned to be built sooner but then it was not. Making a temporary exits on motorway on such road/terrain configuration is not a trivial task.


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## italystf

The construction of motorways to Fernetti and Rabuiese border crossings was agreed in the Osimo Treaty between Italy and Yugoslavia in 1975. They had been opened in 1997 and 2008 respectively. A third motorway through Pesek border crossing was also included in the agreemant, but it was never built.
http://www.normattiva.it/uri-res/N2Ls?urn:nir:presidente.repubblica:decreto:1978-03-06;100~art3


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> A third motorway through Pesek border crossing was also included in the agreemant, but it was never built.


Where would it even connect with RA13/SS202? There isn't much space there.


----------



## keber

There is enough space between Padriciano and Trebiciano of course with appropriate design.


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## Verso

Yes, it probably wouldn't connect in the Carso Tunnel.


----------



## italystf

Another option could be building a motorway between Divaca (A1-A3 junction in SLO) and Rupa (SLO-HR border crossing, with connection to A7 in HR), but aparently Slovenia has no interest in it.
In the 1920s they planned the 2-lanes "Autostrada Torino-Fiume". Only sections Turin-Brescia and Padova-Mestre were completed before the 1935-36 Ethiopian war and consequent economical crisis that stopped all highway projects in Italy. It would have been cool if Italians had completed the Trieste-Fiume section before the war, because even a 2-lanes 1920/30s "autostrada" would have been better than the current Slovenian road 7 through villages. Or maybe Yugoslavia, or later Slovenia, would have duplicated it.


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## Verso

You can still build it. :angel:


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Yes, it probably wouldn't connect in the Carso Tunnel.


Underground interchanges are possible, although extremely challenging and costly.

This is Lecco:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=lecco#map=14/45.8490/9.4056

This is Stockholm:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=stoccolma#map=14/59.2976/18.0859
https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=stoccolma#map=14/59.3527/18.0556

This is in Oslo:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=oslo#map=14/59.9137/10.7390

The Carso tunnel is a particular case, though, as it was dug through a very difficult terrain with previously-unexplored caves. During its construction in 2002-2008 some relevant discoveries accidentally occurred, that became the subject of further studies for geologists.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> You can still build it. :angel:


I think EU should partially fund the completition of this corridor, that has little importance for Slovenia, but a lot of importance for Europe as whole. Or maybe it could be co-financed by Italy and Croatia, although I don't think there is any political interest in doing so, as there is quite a lot of competition between ports of Trieste, Koper, and Rijeka in being the international hub in this part of Adriatic, so none of the three countries has the insterest of having its port better connected to the other two.
However, highways financed by other countries or international organizations aren't unheard of.
In the 1940s Americans built the Alaska Highway across Canada to connect Alaska with the rest of USA.
Since "Ostpolitik" in 1972 W.Germany financed the contruction of Transitautobahnnen between BRD and W.Berlin across DDR.
In the 1980s EEC funded the construction of the "Botherhood and Unity Highway" across Yugoslavia to connect Greece with Western Europe.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Underground interchanges are possible, although extremely challenging and costly.


I know, there's one in Ljubljana:
https://goo.gl/maps/UiHruybe3Hv


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> I know, there's one in Ljubljana:
> https://goo.gl/maps/UiHruybe3Hv


Some ramps are partly underground, but there are no underground exits or merging points. I can think of other interchanges partially in tunnels, for example between SS47 and SS50bis in Veneto or some motorway interchanges near Genoa.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Some ramps are partly underground, but there are no underground exits or merging points.


How not?
https://goo.gl/maps/irUGTYS1d1B2


----------



## g.spinoza

Viaduct Puleto on SS3bis, better known as E45, has been seized and closed down by Carabinieri because it has been deemed "at high risk of collapse".

https://firenze.repubblica.it/crona...tro-216695045/?ref=RHPPLF-BL-I0-C8-P2-S1.8-T1

This operation was started after a mushroomer posted on Facebook pictures and videos of one pylon in bad conditions. And independent risk assessment was done after this video went viral and the committee decided to close down the viaduct.

http://www.arezzonotizie.it/video/testimonianza-e45.html

And this is a video recorded by a local television:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's kind of scary that they don't seem to have some kind of bridge inspection programme. Deficiencies should be detected by thorough inspections, not by some random bystander...


----------



## narkelion

That road, owned and maintained by ANAS, is the star-bright demonstration of what'll happen to all motorways should ASPI (Autostrade per l'Italia) be removed and should them be handed over to ANAS.


----------



## pccvspw999

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's kind of scary that they don't seem to have some kind of bridge inspection programme. Deficiencies should be detected by thorough inspections, not by some random bystander...


The problem in Italy is that we have the "most severe laws", but missing are the necessary regulations.
For instance: in Germany there is DIN 1076 that says how, how often and with which accuracy bridge inspections must be made, and the german law says: "DIN 1076 shall be applied". The italian law (laws are only a framework, it's up to reglements to define technical details), instead, says: every road owner shall make his own "DIN 1076". Fewest have done it, and those who did it made them "cost effective" (for instance the province of Bozen).

On the other hand, I have the clear impression, even though without any prove, that exactly because there is a lack of controls, as no standard is pending, the design standards (these do exist) for the steel framework are far more restictive in Italy. In other words: we put far more steel in reinforced concrete as others, with a larger safety factor. If it is so, the exposure of outer ironing is not an issue, even if it is ugly to see, because the minimum of safety is still given. In other contries this may differ significantly.

Only as an example, figures are imaginary:
ITA: minimum safety factor - "2"; design safety factor - "4"=> much more steel => higher initial manufacturing cost, but lower maintainance.
GER: minimum safety factor - "2"; design safety factor - "2,5"=> just the right amount of steel until first general inspection => lower initial manufacturing cost, but higher maintainance.

In Germany, for example, in 2011 was introduced the_ "Richtlinie zur Nachrechnung von Straßenbrücken im Bestand (Nachrechnungsrichtlinie)"_, a directive for recalculation of existing bridges. This led to the awareness that many bridges were not fit for the loads and traffic of nowadays (p.e. "Decatur-Brücke" in Maschen/Seevetal, opened in 1974, now closed), because the former design standards were inaccurate/insufficient.

As far as I know, in Italy we use "military loads" (at least for roads) for these kind of calculations, loads which is far more challenging than common traffic.

It would be interesting to see the outcome of an identical specified bridge, designed applying rules and regulations valid in different nations (Europe). I won't be surprised if we get a plentyful of different results (from the calculation point of view, not from the aesthetics), and none of them that can be used in a different nation as designed.

Maybe a construction engineer with international experience may confirm my arguing.


----------



## italystf

Reconstruction of the collapsed bridge in Genoa should start on 31-03-2019 and the new bridge will open by 15-04-2020. It was designed by Renzo Piano and it will be build by Salini-Impregilo and Fincantieri.
http://www.ilsecoloxix.it/p/genova/2019/01/18/AD3PgyrD-viadotto_contratto_durevole.shtml


----------



## intersezioni

GENOVA - After the signing of the contract yesterday afternoon at Palazzo Tursi, where the mayor and reconstruction commissioner Marco Bucci were present, the Genoese architect Renzo Piano, Emilio Giuseppe Omini, managing director Omini Spa, the president of Liguria Region and commissioner Emergency Giovanni Toti, Giuseppe Bono, Fincantieri managing director, Pietro Salini, Salini Impregilo CEO, we proceed quickly to leave as soon as possible with the demolition of the Morandi Bridge. Also because the date by which the new bridge should be passable for the cars was set for April 15, 2020. The reconstruction was scheduled as of March 2019, "but the demolition work will go ahead," Bucci said yesterday .

Meanwhile, in these days work continues to lighten the bridge from the asphalt and new jersey, before being able to continue with the dismantling of the bridge from Monday, January 21st. On Tuesday 22nd January, Commissioner Bucci will once again meet the representatives of the inhabitants on the borders of the red zone to take stock of the situation. The 23rd arrives in Genoa the President of the Republic Mattarella to attend the memory of 40 years after the killing of Guido Rossa, but that next Wednesday will also be an opportunity for the Head of State to see the site in person.


----------



## Kemo

italystf said:


> However, highways financed by other countries or international organizations aren't unheard of.
> In the 1940s Americans built the Alaska Highway across Canada to connect Alaska with the rest of USA.
> Since "Ostpolitik" in 1972 W.Germany financed the contruction of Transitautobahnnen between BRD and W.Berlin across DDR.
> In the 1980s EEC funded the construction of the "Botherhood and Unity Highway" across Yugoslavia to connect Greece with Western Europe.


More recent example, from the current decade:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/direc...4.8459;50.9013,14.8444#map=13/50.8856/14.8479
This road was completely financed by Germany and Czechia (or maybe the respective regions of these countries, I'm not sure). But it is a short section and not a motorway.


----------



## MichiH

^^ It was funded by 80% from EU. Germany and Czechia paid 20%.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A5 Morgex*

I took some photos of the A5 viaduct at Morgex (Aosta Valley) last September.



A5 Morgex-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


A5 Morgex-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


A5 Morgex-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


A5 Morgex-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Mont Blanc tunnel might close for 2 or 3 years the next decade, and the Second tybe of the Fréjus should open in October 2021 (7 years after the end of boring).


----------



## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> The Mont Blanc tunnel might close for 2 or 3 years the next decade


Why? It wasn't reopened long ago.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Yes, after the fire it has been refurbished, but apparently they have to rebuild the ceiling. I don't know more.


----------



## Suburbanist

Maybe they should consider building a second tube like the Frejus. Single-lane as well. 

Even better if they also used the opportunity to build a rail link Chamonix - Pré-Saint-Didier. That would be a 4th Italy <-> France rail link as well.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> Maybe they should consider building a second tube like the Frejus. Single-lane as well.


If they have to build a new tube, it's better to spend a bit more and build wide enough to accomodate 2 lanes.


----------



## Verso

Why would 5.000 aadt require a second tube? They better lower the astronomical toll.


----------



## Suburbanist

Verso said:


> Why would 5.000 aadt require a second tube? They better lower the astronomical toll.


Safety and redundancy, as there is no mountain there (unless taking a long detour through the Gran San Bernardo)


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> Maybe they should consider building a second tube like the Frejus. Single-lane as well.
> 
> Even better if they also used the opportunity to build a rail link Chamonix - Pré-Saint-Didier. That would be a 4th Italy <-> France rail link as well.



The second tube is one of the options, should they close down the current tube for a long time. The concessionaire itself proposed a second tube to be built and put into service before the original one can be renovated. Of course, people from the valley is generally against.

The rail, on the other hand was never proposed and it is not in any plan.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Imagine how isolated the Aosta Valley was until the 1960s;

* No Mont Blanc Tunnel
* No Grand St. Bernard Tunnel
* Petit & Grand St. Bernard Passes were probably inaccessible in winter
* no connections to lateral valleys

So the only way in and out was a long drive on SS 26.

Most of the Italian valleys in the Western Alps have only one way in and out, I contemplated doing a day trip to Colle del Nivolet from the French side of the Alps. It's only 30 km from Bourg-St. Maurice as the crow flies, but it's a good 4 hours of driving, to get there as you need to drive east into the plains and then a long way back into the mountains. It's too far away for a day trip from France.


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> Imagine how isolated the Aosta Valley was until the 1960s;
> 
> * No Mont Blanc Tunnel
> * No Grand St. Bernard Tunnel
> * Petit & Grand St. Bernard Passes were probably inaccessible in winter
> * no connections to lateral valleys
> 
> So the only way in and out was a long drive on SS 26.
> 
> Most of the Italian valleys in the Western Alps have only one way in and out, I contemplated doing a day trip to Colle del Nivolet from the French side of the Alps. It's only 30 km from Bourg-St. Maurice as the crow flies, but it's a good 4 hours of driving, to get there as you need to drive east into the plains and then a long way back into the mountains. It's too far away for a day trip from France.


It really bothers that they never completed the small gap left (not even the mountain pass) between Aosta and Piemonte after Nivolet. They could easly pave the remaining gravel section and finish the missing link


----------



## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> Viaduct Puleto on SS3bis, better known as E45, has been seized and closed down by Carabinieri because it has been deemed "at high risk of collapse".
> 
> https://firenze.repubblica.it/crona...tro-216695045/?ref=RHPPLF-BL-I0-C8-P2-S1.8-T1
> 
> This operation was started after a mushroomer posted on Facebook pictures and videos of one pylon in bad conditions. And independent risk assessment was done after this video went viral and the committee decided to close down the viaduct.
> 
> http://www.arezzonotizie.it/video/testimonianza-e45.html
> 
> And this is a video recorded by a local television:


This is the only alternative to the expressway, now that the viaduct is closed:












https://www.google.it/maps/@43.7404...318.27594&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## Verso

Looks like a main road in... Africa.


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Looks like a main road in... Africa.


It is closed since 1999, so it cannot be used as a detour.

The actual detour is much longer, on a different route:

https://www.google.it/maps/dir/Verg...1d12.0432384!2d43.667571!3e0?hl=it&authuser=0


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## CNGL

And as I suspected it's not much more than a goat path: https://www.google.it/maps/@43.7111...4!1sHM3xwZ1vT_6R9Xa--kezPA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> It really bothers that they never completed the small gap left (not even the mountain pass) between Aosta and Piemonte after Nivolet. They could easly pave the remaining gravel section and finish the missing link


It will never happen because there's a national park. The Nivolet dead end road is a popular destionation for astronomes and astrophiles, because it's one of the few places in the Alps accessible by car without light pollution at night. The bus crash scene of the film "The Italian Job" from 1969 was filmed there.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Looks like a main road in... Africa.


It's hard to believe that it used to be a national road until the expressway opened in the 1970s.
SS3bis was included in the national road network in 1938 for political reasons, as it was the most direct road between Rome and Berlin.


----------



## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> It will never happen because there's a national park. The Nivolet dead end road is a popular destionation for astronomes and astrophiles, because it's one of the few places in the Alps accessible by car without light pollution at night. The bus crash scene of the film "The Italian Job" from 1969 was filmed there.


There are plenty of paved roads within Italian national parks, including other roads at Gran Paradiso national park. Other examples include A24 through Gran Sasso national park and A2 almost bisecting Pollino national park.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> There are plenty of paved roads within Italian national parks, including other roads at Gran Paradiso national park. Other examples include A24 through Gran Sasso national park and A2 almost bisecting Pollino national park.


Those are different though.

A24 and A3 were built before the parks were created, while Gran Paradiso park, since it was created in the 20's, predates the road.

I guess it is not impossible to build a road through a National Park, but it is much harder than normal (which is already hard, in Italy).



italystf said:


> It's hard to believe that it used to be a national road until the expressway opened in the 1970s.
> SS3bis was included in the national road network in 1938 for political reasons, as it was the most direct road between Rome and Berlin.


I don't think that has ever been national road. Old SS3 didn't go all the way through the high Tiber valley, as it terminus was Fano, much more South.


----------



## Suburbanist

Maby when electric cars are more common they could build a paved road with softened bricks, put a slow speed limit through the park, and open the stretch only for bikes and electric-powered cars. 

Can you even drive to the top of Nicolet pass? I thought they had some shuttle buses to take people to the upper lake during weekends in the summer.


----------



## narkelion

You can't on summer weekends, no: http://www.pngp.it/nivolet/regolamentazione

You have to leave the car here: https://goo.gl/maps/1UeSWq2nNt62 and take the shuttle bus, unless you have a written reservation for the Rifugio Savoia.


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> You can't on summer weekends, no: http://www.pngp.it/nivolet/regolamentazione


You can if you arrive before 9 AM. I know because I did it a couple of times.


----------



## g.spinoza

An update about the status of A21 racc, the southern bypass of Brescia, also known as "Corda Molle" ("Slack line").

It was conceived as a free-of-charge feeder to A35 by the former concessionaire of A21 (Centropadane): the deal was that Centropadane would build the road, and the concession for A21 would have been renewed without new tenders. Centropadane started building it, and the first half was opened in 2012. Meanwhile the concession wasn't renewed (it was awarded to Autovie Padane), so Centropadane didn't fulfill its part of the deal and works stopped, and are stopped ever since.

A35 was left without a proper feeder: meanwhile, a direct connection with A4 was conceived, built and opened in 2017. The main fuction of A21 racc was thus scaled down.

Now, Autovie Padane just released its own project for the completion of A21 racc. Works would start in 2020 at 100 M€ cost, for 13 km.
The new project, however, will transform this free-of-charge feeder into a tolled one: Autovie Padane wants to implement a free-flow system much alike the one of A36 Pedemontana Lombarda.

Questions arise about the sustainability of such a road. Now that A35 is directly linked to A4, and the feeder role of A21 racc is toned down, it is possible that having the road tolled would lower the (already low) number of people using it.

https://brescia.corriere.it/notizie...fc-11e9-a474-995954c4bc54.shtml?refresh_ce-cp


----------



## italystf

A hypotetical road across Nivolet pass won't be open for more than 5-7 months per year anyway, due to its high altitude (>2,600 m).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That wouldn't be so different from say, Col de l'Iseran just across the border. In fact that is the case for most Alpine passes over 1800 - 2000 meters. Only a small number of high mountain passes remain open during the winter.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> I don't think that has ever been national road. Old SS3 didn't go all the way through the high Tiber valley, as it terminus was Fano, much more South.


That is the SS3 "Flaminia", that links Rome and Fano. The SS3bis "Tiberina" it's a completely different road, that links Terni and Ravenna (originally Narni with Bagno di Romagna).
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strada_statale_3_Via_Flaminia
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strada_statale_3_bis_Tiberina


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> That is the SS3 "Flaminia", that links Rome and Fano. The SS3bis "Tiberina" it's a completely different road, that links Terni and Ravenna (originally Narni with Bagno di Romagna).
> https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strada_statale_3_Via_Flaminia
> https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strada_statale_3_bis_Tiberina


Ah, yes. I thought that the first SS3bis was the expressway, I didn't know it replaced an older SS3bis.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> That wouldn't be so different from say, Col de l'Iseran just across the border. In fact that is the case for most Alpine passes over 1800 - 2000 meters. Only a small number of high mountain passes remain open during the winter.


The highest place in the Alps where you can drive year round is probably Bernina pass in Switzerland (2,330 m). In Italy it should be Foscagno pass (2,291 m). Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> An update about the status of A21 racc, the southern bypass of Brescia, also known as "Corda Molle" ("Slack line").
> 
> It was conceived as a free-of-charge feeder to A35 by the former concessionaire of A21 (Centropadane): the deal was that Centropadane would build the road, and the concession for A21 would have been renewed without new tenders. Centropadane started building it, and the first half was opened in 2012. Meanwhile the concession wasn't renewed (it was awarded to Autovie Padane), so Centropadane didn't fulfill its part of the deal and works stopped, and are stopped ever since.
> 
> A35 was left without a proper feeder: meanwhile, a direct connection with A4 was conceived, built and opened in 2017. The main fuction of A21 racc was thus scaled down.
> 
> Now, Autovie Padane just released its own project for the completion of A21 racc. Works would start in 2020 at 100 M€ cost, for 13 km.
> The new project, however, will transform this free-of-charge feeder into a tolled one: Autovie Padane wants to implement a free-flow system much alike the one of A36 Pedemontana Lombarda.
> 
> Questions arise about the sustainability of such a road. Now that A35 is directly linked to A4, and the feeder role of A21 racc is toned down, it is possible that having the road tolled would lower the (already low) number of people using it.
> 
> https://brescia.corriere.it/notizie...fc-11e9-a474-995954c4bc54.shtml?refresh_ce-cp


I think A21 racc it's the most useless motorway section in Italy. Especially now with the direct A4-A35 link. The missing section is already open as half-profile highway and it's probably enough.


----------



## Coccodrillo

italystf said:


> The highest place in the Alps where you can drive year round is probably Bernina pass in Switzerland (2,330 m). In Italy it should be Foscagno pass (2,291 m). Correct me if I'm wrong.


The highest point of the Bernina road (~2330 m) is higher than the lowest point of the pas (~2234 m) where there is no road. The railway peaks at 2253 m.

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...=18641231,,,&E=2798568.24&N=1143279.44&zoom=8

Similarly the lowest point between Livigno and Bormio might not be along the road (but it has a similar height).

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...=18641231,,,&E=2813442.97&N=1156033.97&zoom=7


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's is not uncommon. It's the difference between the geographical pass or col, and the actual road pass. I think most people would associate the pass height with the road summit.


----------



## italystf

Has anyone (G.Spinoza? Chriszwolle? MichiH?) ever attempted to make a comprehensive list of Italian expressways, in order to calculate its lenght?


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I tried once, many years ago, but stopped soon. I don't think I still have the file.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I once made this list, the last edit was in December 2012, so it is a good 6 years old.


----------



## Verso

^ Nice list. You forgot SS16 NW of Rimini and the southern Udine bypass though (and also Udine (western) tangenziale, along A23).


----------



## narkelion

Nice! If you want to update it...

SR2 Roma - Monterosi is missing, SR148 Pontina (Roma - Latina) too, and the short SS4 Rieti bypass. SS675 now goes to Monteromano Est for the Lazio region. 

For the Marche/Umbria regions, RA14 Ascoli - Mare is actually a full motorway, SS77 Valchienti now goes all the way to Foligno (part of the Quadrilatero project). Part of the same project, SS318 di Valfabbrica now goes all the way from Perugia to Fossato di Vico (although a tunnel is single-bore) and SS76 Val d'Esino (still U/C) has been extended to Fossato di Vico, and was already a cat.B from Serra S. Quirico to Ancona Nord/Falconara.


For the SS1, the part from Tarquinia to Rosignano is a bit weird. A big part of it is definitely a cat. B, some stretches have at-grade junctions though.


----------



## Verso

narkelion said:


> RA14 Ascoli - Mare is actually a full motorway


You mean RA11.


----------



## narkelion

Verso said:


> You mean RA11.


Yes, RA11, sorry, I always get somehow confused thinking that A14 -> RA14.


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## Verso

^ I didn't really know it's RA11 (had to look it up), but I know it's not RA14. :lol:


----------



## intersezioni

next week will begin the actual demolition of the Morandi bridge. in this days the asphalt and all that could be removed was eliminated


----------



## g.spinoza

According to ASAPS (Association Friends of Highway Patrol), 225 events of wrong way driving were recorded in Italy in 2018 on dual carriageways, resulting in 63 accidents with 20 dead and 108 injured. This is in line with 2017, with the same number of accidents (65) and injured (114), but with half the fatalities (11).

https://www.avvenire.it/amp/economia/pagine/contromano-in-autostrada-una-strage-evitabile


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## italystf

Preliminary works (terrain surveys) for upgrade of SP35 Milan - Meda to motorway standards (A36 Pedemontana Lombarda) has started.
In that area there is some dioxine contaminated soil due to the 1976 Seveso disaster.

https://www.ilgiorno.it/monza-brianza/cronaca/pedemontana-1.4415622


----------



## legolego

italystf said:


> Has anyone (G.Spinoza? Chriszwolle? MichiH?) ever attempted to make a comprehensive list of Italian expressways, in order to calculate its lenght?


Here you can find the list of Italian Highways Lenghts, splitted for each holding:

http://www.mit.gov.it/documentazione/dichiarazioni-di-settore

( I suppose it referes to *Jan 2018* )


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A22 Brenner*

Traffic at the Brenner Pass in Südtirol has been paralyzed since yesterday, A22 has been closed pretty much all day going north but problems have extended into Austria, with almost no southbound traffic as well. 

A Dutch traveler reports to have traveled 16 kilometers in 7.5 hours.

Reschenpass is advertised as a viable alternative, Google Maps shows almost the entire route as green.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ It's odd since Reschenpass is actually higher.

Here you can see the situation in all of Bozen province:
https://traffico.provincia.bz.it/


----------



## General Maximus

That picture is the A13 Europabrücke between Innsbruck and Italy...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This appears to be the same thing you observe during the summer: Google Maps sends people into massive traffic jams. 

Google Maps is based on historical traffic data, so it expects the traffic jam to clear by the time you get there. While this works reasonably for daily commutes in metropolitan areas, it doesn't work very well for seasonal traffic flows and major incidents. We've seen this every summer at the Gotthard Tunnel, and now at the Brenner Pass.

If you calculate a route from Verona to Innsbruck it will guide you into traffic chaos, even from Bolzano Google Maps guides traffic into the completely closed road system at the Brenner Pass. 

Maybe these people will have to spend the night in their cars. It wouldn't surprise me given the duration of the current event already. Traffic feeding into the closure is still a problem now 10+ hours later after it began. A22 northbound, SS 12 northbound and SS 49 westbound are completely jammed.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A22 has reopened at 11 p.m. yesterday, but is still reduced to a single lane due to a large amount of stranded semi trucks. Google Maps reports some substantial congestion between Bressanone and Vipitento.


----------



## Verso

How long was the queue?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

25 to 30 kilometers was reported, but this was mostly completely stationary traffic, there were reports of people driving only a short distance in 10 hours. 

There was a very long queue on SS49 going onto A22 or SS12. Both were blocked, but evidently people did not want to drive south to Bolzano. Google Maps also routed people from SS 49 north despite the road being totally blocked.


----------



## g.spinoza

There is basically no alternative. The only one through Reschenpass forces you to an extremely long detour, given the fact that SS44 through Jaufenpass was closed too. Maybe the only other alternative is eastward through Dobbiaco, but where do you go then? Is Felbertauerntunnel open in the winter?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Reschenpass is not that far out of the way if you're going across the Fernpass. Especially if you're talking about delays of many hours you can even drive south to Verona and use the Gotthard Tunnel, there were reports of people doing that.


----------



## stickedy

g.spinoza said:


> There is basically no alternative. The only one through Reschenpass forces you to an extremely long detour, given the fact that SS44 through Jaufenpass was closed too. Maybe the only other alternative is eastward through Dobbiaco, but where do you go then? Is Felbertauerntunnel open in the winter?


Yes, Felberntauerntunnel is normally held opened, Pass Thurn also.


----------



## cinxxx

^^That road is much slower than the motorway.
I drove on its entirety, but not in one go, did it in some 3 or 4 trips.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was looking at SS12, the road that runs next to A22 in Trentino / Südtirol. Do many people use it to avoid tolls on A22? It does look like a reasonably fast road, there are fewer towns and villages along the road than I expected. The valley between Bolzano and Brixen is so narrow that it is hardly developed. Brixen and Sterzing appear to be the only towns of significance, but it's not like there is a village every 4 km.


I have used many times to avoid A22 tolls or jams, and it is indeed one of the few cases of valuable alternatives to a motorway in Italy. It is increasly becoming so, because they are building many villages bypasses (most recent are Brixen's, St Jakob's and Laifers'), but you still have to go through Bozen.


----------



## General Maximus

I'm thoroughly amused that you two have gone all Südtiroler all over the sudden :lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

General Maximus said:


> I'm thoroughly amused that you two have gone all Südtiroler all over the sudden :lol:


I did that just to save keystrokes. Bozen and Brixen are shorter than Bolzano and Bressanone.


----------



## verreme

^^ It looks like Bolzano has a one-way _complanare_ under the motorway deck. Is this the only such case in Italy?


----------



## General Maximus

g.spinoza said:


> I did that just to save keystrokes. Bozen and Brixen are shorter than Bolzano and Bressanone.


How have you used the spare time that you have saved?


----------



## g.spinoza

General Maximus said:


> How have you used the spare time that you have saved?


Replying to you hno:



verreme said:


> ^^ It looks like Bolzano has a one-way _complanare_ under the motorway deck. Is this the only such case in Italy?


Under it, maybe. Bologna has a one-way, two-lane complanare eastward, from San Lazzaro di Sàvena to Ozzano dell'Emilia.


----------



## legolego

^^
Also Si.Ta.Ve, the slip road to the A4 Highway along Verona-Vicenza-Padova route


----------



## Wilhem275

That doesn't exist. Those three cities each have a _tangenziale_ mostly parallel to the A4, but they are not connected to each other.
Some parts of Verona's are arranged in a local-express setup on each side of the motorway, but they carry both ways everywhere.

There's a weird TOTSO in Verona, at the junction of the western _tangenziale_ with T4-T9 road and Verona Nord exit on A22:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/45.4318/10.9091


----------



## Coccodrillo

Where does the number T4-T9 comes from? On Google Maps these roads are signed as SS12 and SS69 (not SR69).


----------



## Wilhem275

I always wondered and never found why. It's commonly called "Strada T4-T9" or "Tronco T4-T9".

Urbanity and roads in Verona are somehow fascinating to me. The city is clearly a fusion of small villages, which combined into a large town in a fast growth, and here and there there are random high-end road solutions.
Sometimes you have the feeling of leaving the city and driving on a countryside minor road... and then you end up in another urban neighborhood.

Expressways are common in Italy as ring roads around larger towns, but they are not as radial roads all the way into the city centre, as this T4-T9 does.

I perceive some kind of German influx in Verona's network.


----------



## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> According to a note from ANAS to the Ministry for Infrastructures, "1425 bridges in Italy are not mantained at all because, according to the documents, they belong to nobody".
> 
> They cite the overpass on SS36 which collapsed few years ago when an overload truck passed over it. ANAS thought it belonged to Province, and vice versa.
> At the beginning of 2017 they started a "bridge census": for 2994 of them, ownership was not clear. After a year ANAS discovered that they owned 983, while 586 belonged to some other company, and 1425 are still without an owner.
> 
> https://www.stradeeautostrade.it/no...un-proprietario-e-nessuno-fa-la-manutenzione/


Just a week after the report on the "orphan bridges" made by newspaper "Corriere della Sera", the 1425 bridges with no owner decreased to 954, but this does not decrease the risk that they will remain without maintenance. In fact, many of them belong to Comuni with no money or consortia which went bust. It seems that ANAS is willing to take care of them too, only if the Ministry gives them proper money.

https://www.corriere.it/dataroom-mi...6eb69d2a-2eea-11e9-9800-d9788a74058f-va.shtml


----------



## dade.shinji

Coccodrillo said:


> Where does the number T4-T9 comes from? On Google Maps these roads are signed as SS12 and SS69 (not SR69).





Wilhem275 said:


> I always wondered and never found why. It's commonly called "Strada T4-T9" or "Tronco T4-T9".
> 
> Urbanity and roads in Verona are somehow fascinating to me. The city is clearly a fusion of small villages, which combined into a large town in a fast growth, and here and there there are random high-end road solutions.
> Sometimes you have the feeling of leaving the city and driving on a countryside minor road... and then you end up in another urban neighborhood.
> 
> Expressways are common in Italy as ring roads around larger towns, but they are not as radial roads all the way into the city centre, as this T4-T9 does.
> 
> I perceive some kind of German influx in Verona's network.


Well, for what I heard (or red, but I can't remember where), it's called this way because it was a part of a longer project that would have connected the A22 Verona nord exit to the "Basso acquar" street.
This street should have been also connected to the SS434 Transpolesana, so, ideally, you could drive from Rovigo-Legnago to the A22 Verona nord exit passing through Verona city centre. But SS434 ends with the Tangenziale sud and the other project ends at the Verona Porta Nuova train station. So the name T4-T9 means "tronco4-tronco9", stratch from 4 to 9, because misses the first 3 stratches.


----------



## Wilhem275

ANAS presented a new type of median steel barrier, designed to be biker-friendly and very narrow (76 cm, height 150 cm).


----------



## keber

Even higher than now, higher than most car types. And still not much safer than newer barriers elsewhere in EU. This is already getting absurd.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Even higher than now, higher than most car types. And still not much safer than newer barriers elsewhere in EU. This is already getting absurd.


What's the problem with them being higher?


----------



## keber

Seeing the surrounding - with such barriers (they look almost 2 m high) you get confined to a bob track which is not pleasant to drive. New Jersey-style barriers would be much better in this case.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

keber said:


> Seeing the surrounding - with such barriers (they look almost 2 m high) you get confined to a bob track which is not pleasant to drive.


It's interesting how this varies so wildly by country. I noticed this when I drove both the Little and Great St. Bernard Passes this summer. The French and Swiss sides have virtually no guardrails / crash barriers while the Italian side is entirely boxed in.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Seeing the surrounding - with such barriers (they look almost 2 m high) you get confined to a bob track which is not pleasant to drive. New Jersey-style barriers would be much better in this case.


Yes, but New Jersey barriers are a lot less effective in keeping the vehicles in the carriageway, and are known for making light vehicles capsize.

10 year ago there was this spectacular accident on the A4 near Venezia, where the median between carriageways was made of jerseys: a truck plunged through them like they were made of butter:






From the ANAS video posted by Wilhelm, it seems that these new barriers will prevent that. Does that mean that I will see less of the surroundings? Pity, but I think this is more important.

EDIT: Ah, another thing. Protection for motorbikers? Literally zero, with jerseys.


----------



## keber

Median in this part of A4 was made with low quality steel barriers, not concrete - new jerseys were installed pretty soon after this accident. And they were installed even after widening:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.652...4!1sZVShFafuBUeAVD6499eEPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

"Ah, another thing. Protection for motorbikers? Literally zero, with jerseys."
How? I can't imagine better option for bikers except soft pillows.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Median in this part of A4 was made with low quality steel barriers, not concrete - new jerseys were installed pretty soon after this accident. And they were installed even after widening:
> https://www.google.com/maps/@45.652...4!1sZVShFafuBUeAVD6499eEPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


My mistake.



> "Ah, another thing. Protection for motorbikers? Literally zero, with jerseys."
> How? I can't imagine better option for bikers except soft pillows.


You serious? New jerseys are 1 m high, thicker at the bottom and thinner at the top. A new jersey is basically a ramp where either 1- a bike takes off like an airplane or 2- the bike stops and the one to take off is the biker, who lands on the other carriageway and is mangled by oncoming cars.


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> 1- a bike takes off like an airplane or 2 - the bike stops and the one to take off is the biker, who lands on the other carriageway and is mangled by oncoming cars.


 I never heard of such accidents (although they probably do happen sometimes). Taking off from almost vertical new jersey barrier is possible only with dirt bikes, slow speed and really experienced biker. Most biker in contact with barrier die because they hit one of steel supports.
Concrete barriers seem to be (at least statistically) the least dangerous for motorbikers of three common types of barriers:
https://www.sbes.vt.edu/gabler/publications/Daniello-Gabler-TRR-2011-Effect_of_Barrier_Type_in_Motorcycle_to_Barrier_Collisions.pdf


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A classical jersey barrier is prone to roll-overs, in the Netherlands they have developed the step barrier in the 1990s as an alternative.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> I never heard of such accidents (although they probably do happen sometimes). Taking off from almost vertical new jersey barrier is possible only with dirt bikes, slow speed and really experienced biker. Most biker in contact with barrier die because they hit one of steel supports.
> Concrete barriers seem to be (at least statistically) the least dangerous for motorbikers of three common types of barriers:
> https://www.sbes.vt.edu/gabler/publications/Daniello-Gabler-TRR-2011-Effect_of_Barrier_Type_in_Motorcycle_to_Barrier_Collisions.pdf


Well, my impressions are wrong then.

I would not insist further. If I were a biker, I would be scared by jerseys nonetheless.


----------



## italystf

Bikes itself are dangerous, and motorways are even more dangerous places for them. No kind of crash barriers can solve this problem.


----------



## Wilhem275

Honestly I never heard of a safety issue of NJ barriers about bikers. The very well known problem is with common guardrails, because their exposed, discontinuous supports will harm a biker who fell off and is gliding on the ground.
That's why this new design has a continuous low wall.

Some retrofits are already in use in several regions:










http://www.snoline.com/dr46-protezione-motociclisti

In this new design they integrated the low wall as a structural element, thus making the upper half much lighter and open than the latest walls.

About the famous Cessalto crash, the truck dived into the median at a high angle, 60° at least; I doubt there are many barriers which can stop that.
Maybe a double layer of NJ filled with dirt or concrete.
But I can confirm there was an old metal rail at the time and NJs were installed after the accident.

To me the greatest issue is the widespread misplacement of guard rail terminals. I don't know if Italian specifications are poor or they're not followed properly, but I see really too many dangerous spots where the guard rail will make more damage than benefits.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A major pile-up occurred this morning on A22 south of Verona in dense fog. Around 100 vehicles were involved, with 1 fatality and 20 - 40 injuries (reports vary).


----------



## g.spinoza

I am always surprised about how people drive fast during fog. Sometimes I am almost scared to slow down in fear someone rams into me from behind.


----------



## Verso

^^ I think those driving fast are usually on the overtaking lane. I definitely don't drive fast, if I hardly see anything. hno:


----------



## intersezioni




----------



## intersezioni

keber said:


> Median in this part of A4 was made with low quality steel barriers, not concrete - new jerseys were installed pretty soon after this accident. And they were installed even after widening:
> https://www.google.com/maps/@45.652...4!1sZVShFafuBUeAVD6499eEPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> "Ah, another thing. Protection for motorbikers? Literally zero, with jerseys."
> How? I can't imagine better option for bikers except soft pillows.


you try to criticize everything done in Italy.
We will all learn from Slovenia, the leading lighthouse of technology and industry globally!


----------



## Wilhem275

Easy... don't make it personal. Also, he didn't say anything wrong.


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> ^^ I think those driving fast are usually on the overtaking lane. I definitely don't drive fast, if I hardly see anything. hno:


I was talking about Italians. I have little experience of driving on fog in other countries, but Germans seemed more behaved to me.


----------



## Verso

^^ Luckily I don't have to drive in fog often, so I don't have a lot of experience with it. Once I drove in an extremely thick fog in Switzerland though, but it wasn't a motorway.

Btw, nationalism on SSC is so annoying.


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Btw, nationalism on SSC is so annoying.


Agreed. 
But I wasn't trying to make nationalism.


----------



## italystf

It's a matter of facts that A4 Venice - Trieste had extremely unsafe steel median crashbarriers until 2008. Look at here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.709...4!1sf_3Ml1Zitg0aZN9bj_pBLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It's almost ashtonishing to think that a such imporant (and tolled) motorway had a such unsafe median until so recently. It something you see on vintage motorway photos from the 1960s or the 1970s, or that you can still find on some ANAS expressway in Central or Southern Italy.


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> Agreed.
> But I wasn't trying to make nationalism.


No, I didn't mean you.


----------



## sponge_bob

italystf said:


> It's a matter of facts that A4 Venice - Trieste had extremely unsafe steel median crashbarriers until 2008


They were normal on motorways constructed before 1990, everywhere.

Jersey barriers are relatively recent in Europe and as explained a few posts back it took some time to get the shape right (thanks Holland) and it took some time for low slump concrete extrusion machines to appear widely to pour these barriers properly and then for highway standards to catch up to the capabilities of these extrusion machines. 

All in all it only came together (standards and technology) in the 1990s. Italy had already built most of its network by then. You would naturally retrofit these when a 30 year old road came up for a major pavement rebuild, not when the pavement is fine and non life expired.


----------



## italystf

sponge_bob said:


> They were normal on motorways constructed before 1990, everywhere.
> 
> Jersey barriers are relatively recent in Europe and as explained a few posts back it took some time to get the shape right (thanks Holland) and it took some time for low slump concrete extrusion machines to appear widely to pour these barriers properly and then for highway standards to catch up to the capabilities of these extrusion machines.
> 
> All in all it only came together (standards and technology) in the 1990s. Italy had already built most of its network by then. You would naturally retrofit these when a 30 year old road came up for a major pavement rebuild, not when the pavement is fine and non life expired.


Modern double steel barrier are much higher and strong than the old ones on A4, with green plastic bars above them. According to old Street View, they were rusty too, so less robust. I'm sure more modern stell barriers were already commonplace by the 2000s. I won't be surprised if they were the original barriers from 1966-1970.


----------



## Wilhem275

At the time of the accident, those barriers were already scheduled for replacement with double steel rails.
Side barriers had already been replaced, the median was scheduled after the August rush.

Anyway, given the speed and angle of impact, I wouldn't swear on a different outcome.
To me a double NJ is much better.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I've seen similar things also here in Paris.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Holy cow:
> 
> * https://www.google.com/maps/@40.904...4!1s8VRPy6zKXcRMLgXQXg25Ng!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> * https://www.google.com/maps/@40.904...4!1s_rJmwyIQUbAZrZmW9Pzjuw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> * https://www.google.com/maps/@40.901...4!1svrTpH2vdVe8jrxbDB0CWSw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> _Welcome to the Jungle_...


Scampia is one of the worst suburb of Naples for things like crime and poverty. Moreover, in that specific place, there is an illegal settlement inhabitated by a certain ethnic minotity.


----------



## Verso

Suburbanist said:


> It is an urban highway that was just half-finished, in the sense several exits missing with semi-abandoned junctions, and a sector that had just one carriageway operating in a single direction opened many years before, with semi-abandoned pillings or semi-paved lanes next to it (which had become for a time a full-blown illegal dump for trash, very third-wordy, including things like sofas or tires, until they cleaned it up).
> 
> Take a Google Street View, change it to 2008 imagery at this place: https://goo.gl/maps/xho5mGhgT7S2 and check other spots on that ill-fated highway.
> 
> I don't think Madrid ever had any project so badly mismanaged like that to the point people were comfortable throwing household trash all over it.


Will they ever finish it and open the other carriageway?



ChrisZwolle said:


> Holy cow:
> 
> * https://www.google.com/maps/@40.904...4!1s8VRPy6zKXcRMLgXQXg25Ng!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> * https://www.google.com/maps/@40.904...4!1s_rJmwyIQUbAZrZmW9Pzjuw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> * https://www.google.com/maps/@40.901...4!1svrTpH2vdVe8jrxbDB0CWSw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> _Welcome to the Jungle_...


There's an "isola ecologica" right next to this place.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> It is an urban highway that was just half-finished, in the sense several exits missing with semi-abandoned junctions, and a sector that had just one carriageway operating in a single direction opened many years before, with semi-abandoned pillings or semi-paved lanes next to it (which had become for a time a full-blown illegal dump for trash, very third-wordy, including things like sofas or tires, until they cleaned it up).
> 
> Take a Google Street View, change it to 2008 imagery at this place: https://goo.gl/maps/xho5mGhgT7S2 and check other spots on that ill-fated highway.
> 
> I don't think Madrid ever had any project so badly mismanaged like that to the point people were comfortable throwing household trash all over it.


A part of SS87NC is one-way, indeed, so you have to go either via A1 or via the city if you drive in the wrong direction.
I think they should better open it as 1+1 road, until they complete the 2nd carriaggeway.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/40....79,14.2735584,8461m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> There's an "isola ecologica" right next to this place.


You need to show your documents to legally access an "ecological island" to dump your trash. Ecological islands are only for households, as legitimate businesses are required to dispose of their garbage via an authorized company.
Most dumped trash come from either undeclared economical activities (such as undeclared workers doing construction or renovation works without paying taxes), or from thefts of used appliances (from ecological islands or elsewhere): stolen appliances are stripped from what can be sold for money (usually copper and iron), and the unneeded parts are either dumped in the environment or burned.
There are also more sophisticated methods to dispose of hazardous waste, usually employed by criminal organizations like camorra: toxic waste may be put in old boats and then sunk in the sea, buried in the countryside, mixed with earth or gravel that is later sold for construction works, or buried in the foundations of buildings and roads.


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## italystf

In the past they considered building a tunnel below Via Milano, to connect SS87NC and SP500.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=secondigliano#map=15/40.8967/14.2596

Works actually started, but, on 23 February 1996, a gas leakage provoked an explosion, that killed 11 people. Works were interrupted and never resumed since then.









https://napoli.repubblica.it/cronac...familiari_delle_vittime_giustizia_-156795639/


----------



## Luki_SL

Is there any time limit to sign  A2 number on all directional signs between Salerno and Reggio Calabria? There is no consequence now, because several hundred meters from "A2" number is still  A3 .


----------



## g.spinoza

Luki_SL said:


> Is there any time limit to sign  A2 number on all directional signs between Salerno and Reggio Calabria? There is no consequence now, because several hundred meters from "A2" number is still  A3 .


No time limit.

South of Rome, on secondary roads, you can still find signs pointing to the old A2 - the Rome-Naples motorway. The change in denomination to A1 happened in 1990...


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## italystf

Widening to 2x3 of A4 between Portogruaro and Alvisopoli (8,5 km) will start tomorrow. 5 underpasses, 5 overpasses, 3 bridges, and the junction with A28 will be rebuild. Works will last 2 years and cost 87.4 million €.

http://www.triesteprima.it/cronaca/a4-lavori-autostrada-24-marzo-2019.html


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## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> Days of very bad weather all over Italy.
> 
> In Liguria, SP227 is closed due to a slide and Portofino is unreachable by land:


After 160 days of work, provincial road 227 to Portofino (the only road connection of the famous town) is going to reopen next 7th April.

https://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/viaggi/2019-03-22/riapre-strada-portofino-180808.shtml?uuid=AB2G89gB


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## Verso

^^ Wait, Portofino has been unreachable on road for almost 5 months? :O


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> ^^ Wait, Portofino has been unreachable on road for almost 5 months? :O


Eh, yes.
I write posts, but if nobody reads them...


----------



## Verso

^ I read it, but that was right after closure, not a few months after it.  You should've written every month: "Portofino is still unreachable by car."


----------



## stickedy

There seems to be a narrow path over the hills, not really wide and most likely restricted for cars at all, but for small cars should be possible to use it.


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## g.spinoza

stickedy said:


> There seems to be a narrow path over the hills, not really wide and most likely restricted for cars at all, but for small cars should be possible to use it.


I read few weeks ago that they were thinking of widening it because of SP227 interruption... I don't know if they did that (I don't think so).


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## italystf

Shortly after the road had been destroyed by the flood (literally destroyed, no traces of it was left in some sections), all vehicles that were left in Portofino had been loaded into a ro-ro ship and unloaded in Genoa.
Initially they set up a service of passenger ferries between Santa Margherita Ligure and Portofino. Later, they build a pedestrian path along the collapsed section of the road. People travel by bus from Santa Margherita till the end of the driveable road, then walk along the destroyed section, and take another bus to Portofino.
Now the road is almost rebuilt, but it's still unpaved and closed to traffic except emergency vehicles.


----------



## brick84

*SS96 "Barese", Apulia *

_new stretch from Toritto to Modugno (9 km) opened to traffic_


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## brick84

"Torre San Vincenzo" movement to allow to costruction of SS96 "Barese"


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## Wilhem275

Wow, they relocated the whole building to make way for the road. Not very common in Italy.

EDIT: sorry, just posted above.


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## g.spinoza

I posted it a little over 1 year ago 

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=145248861&postcount=10090



g.spinoza said:


> In order to carry on the doubling of SS 96, a 12-m, 800-ton 12th/14th century tower had to be moved 32 m.
> This is the first time in Italy that a protected site had to be moved.
> The process was done in 24 hours at 1.3 m per hour. The tower was harnessed, pushed up with hydraulic jacks then pushed on rails.
> 
> The entire process costed 1.5 M€.


----------



## General Maximus

italystf said:


> Fixed hno:


Well, when I get onto a SS road, I can notice the difference. All over the sudden I get this calmness over me. And the motorways are perfectly fine. 

Who manages the GRA anyway? Autostrada per l'Italia?


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## henmar

Falusi said:


> What's up with this project? It seems that most of works (tunnels, bridges) were made many years ago. And according to this new GE iamge it seems to be that theay are working on it again. Will it be the SS7?


Always been fascinated by this section after first reading the message above in 2012. Recently I looked again on Open Street map and found out most sections of it are now open for traffic (the last section opened in in September 2018). Also the road has been upgraded to SS 743. Not sure when the remaining section is planned to open..

Another road that apparently has been partly built many years ago, with a lot of bridges and tunnels, is the northern deviation of Porto Empedocle on Sicily. Anybody knows more about it?


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## g.spinoza

General Maximus said:


> Well, when I get onto a SS road, I can notice the difference. All over the sudden I get this calmness over me. And the motorways are perfectly fine.
> 
> Who manages the GRA anyway? Autostrada per l'Italia?


No, it is managed by ANAS.


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## x-type

I have noticed this addition on Telepass signs this week and I havent' seen it before. What it is?


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## g.spinoza

^^ It's Telepass Europe, the device that can be used on Italian motorways as well as French, Spanish and Portuguese ones.


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## narkelion

It's the sign that shows that you can use any telepass system part of the European telepass network (Spain, France, Italy, Portugal): https://www.telepass.com/it/business/servizi/telepass-europeo


----------



## General Maximus

g.spinoza said:


> No, it is managed by ANAS.


Ah yes, I remember now. 

Speaking of telepasses, my windscreen is clotted with those devices, for Italian, French, UK and Norwegian tolls. 
I haven't got one for Ireland, but my Italian one bleeped today as I went through. It didn't pay for my tolls, though... 

I always find the 4x4 bit of the A1 between Modena and Bologna very interesting. The scenario is as follows:

Lane 1: heavy freight traffic. 
Lane 2: me alone at a steady 130 km/h
Lane 3: distracted and slow moving traffic, most of them on their phones. 
Lane 4: racers.


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## g.spinoza

^^ It's my least favourite stretch of motorway, especially near Modena. It is so confusing.


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## x-type

Really interesting. I never tried it. I just recently drove Bergamo - Milano, and it seems to be in perfect order comparing to A1


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## General Maximus

In Italy, the general opinion is that lane 1 is for goods vehicles only. On a 4x4 motorway, lane 2 is reserved for this general only.


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## ChrisZwolle

Once I drove on A26 on a Sunday. Not a truck in sight. And the right lane was almost entirely deserted, it seems so weird. People in many countries complain about left / middle lane hoggers but I've never seen it as bad as Italy (though I haven't driven that much there).


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## General Maximus

Italy is bad, although I now see the odd one moving to the far right once in a while.

Oh wait, that's politics.

Yes, Italy hasn't got good lane discipline. It doesn't bother me as much as it would bother me in Holland, the UK or Germany though. There they should know better. In Italy, you just do want you want. It's part of the charm.


----------



## x-type

I have the worst left lane hogging experience from Spain because of hogging the leftmost lane. In Italy hoggers are in the middle lane(s). In Germany I haven't experienced it because everyone presses pedal to the metal there. But there happens something that I never see in Italy: if the vehicle goes from lane 1 to lane 2, vehicle behind immediately moves from lane 2 to lane 3 without any nerves. In Italy it never happens. There 75% of vehicles are glued to their lanes and don't give a f*** about other vehicles.
In Austria they don't use lane 3 tough


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## Wilhem275

When we only had 3 lanes max I was convinced people loved the middle lane. When 4 lanes came into operation I realized what they love is the 2nd from left.

Middle lane hoggers are a nightmare for me. If I'm driving fast they kill capacity, if I'm keeping 100-110 on the rightmost lane they are a nuisance because they won't let you move left no matter how empty the next lane is.
Most of the time I stick to the right and pass several cars, even our Highway Police stated that it's legal (as long as you don't zig-zag through traffic). 'murica!


Another example of bad lane discipline is constant corner cutting and moving into nearby lanes. It's ridiculous, car drivers can't keep inside lanes which truckers have no problem to manage...


----------



## NOMAD€

General Maximus said:


> Italy is bad, although I now see the odd one moving to the far right once in a while.
> 
> Oh wait, that's politics.
> 
> Yes, Italy hasn't got good lane discipline. It doesn't bother me as much as it would bother me in Holland, the UK or Germany though. There they should know better. In Italy, you just do want you want. It's part of the charm.


I agree with everything you wrote but not with this:


General Maximus said:


> It's part of the charm.


----------



## NOMAD€

Wilhem275 said:


> Most of the time I stick to the right and pass several cars, even our Highway Police stated that it's legal (as long as you don't zig-zag through traffic). 'murica!


Yes, that’s “superamento” and not “sorpasso”. Legal.


----------



## g.spinoza

I am glad when they're building 3rd and 4th lanes, because it means that on weekends, the first lane is all for me!


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> The metropolitan city is just the province with another name.


Not exactly, there are slight governance differences.
A metropolitan city is governed by the "metropolitan mayor", (the mayor of the administrative centre of the metropolitan city, who automatically become also the mayor of the metropolitan city), the "metropolitan council" (made up by some mayors and councilors of municipalities of the metropolian city, elected by mayors and councilors themselves), and the "metropolitan conference" (that includes mayors of all municipalities of the metropolitan city).
A province is governed by the "president of province" (elected by mayors and councilors of municipalities of the province among mayors of the municipalities of the province), the "provincial council" (made up by some mayors and councilors of municipalities of the provinces, elected by mayors and councilors themselves), and the "assembly of mayors" (that includes mayors of all municipalities of the metropolitan city).
All above doesn't apply in the regions with special autonomy (Friuli Venezia Giulia, Trentino Alto Adige, Aosta Valley, and Sicily) that have created their own subregional sudivisions, as they have the constitutional power to derogate national laws in some matters.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I know all of this, it's just blahblah. Practically, they are the same thing.


----------



## Stuu

Question about the road being built around Castelfiorentino in Tuscany: nothing has happened for years - will it ever be finished? What is the problem?


----------



## kokomo

Thanks a lot for all the responses! You have all been really helpful kay:


----------



## g.spinoza

There are some fai da te pumps, though, with no machine: you pump your gas, then you pay to the guy or at the cash desk.


----------



## kokomo

Usually at the Autostrade, I will be at the A1 and A14 mostly, the fai-da-te require to pay to the machine and eventually accept credit cards?


----------



## g.spinoza

kokomo said:


> Usually at the Autostrade, I will be at the A1 and A14 mostly, the fai-da-te require to pay to the machine and eventually accept credit cards?


Credit cards are accepted everywhere. I'm not sure about the fai-da-te, I think many of those I used on the motorways are "pump your gas, pay at desk", rather than fully automated.


----------



## kokomo

Ok, great. Thanks. I read on several places that fai-da-te pumps relied mostly on exact cash before using them and not taking foreign credit cards. Good to know that pay at desk is available. 

Grazzie!


----------



## narkelion

fai-da-te on motorway services are usually 'pump first, then pay at desk', and they are open 24/7.

Some have a special "super discount pumps" where you have to pay first, and in that case is either card or exact cash.


----------



## italystf

Anyway, I suggest to use motorway gas pumps only if you need absolutely to do. Outside motorways, fuel is cheaper.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Are there commonly fuel stations where you have to pre-pay before filling up?


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ Yes, they are. In my Region (Venethia) when closed or in self-service mode, you pay before very often if not every time...


----------



## cougar1989

At summer 2017 I had to fill some liters with fuel into my car that I can come until Slovenia. I was at the rest area Esso Soave on the A4. It was around 5 in the morning. The Pump didn't work, so I went into the shop and spoke with the fuel seller. He said to me it is prepayment, so I gave him 10€ in cash, he looked a bit strange to me, I said at Slovenia it is cheaper, so I think he knows what I wanted. Later I looked to the pump and saw Prepayment only.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

To be clear, I meant fuel stations where you pre-pay in the shop to fill up. Not swiping your card at a pump.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> To be clear, I meant fuel stations where you pre-pay in the shop to fill up. Not swiping your card at a pump.


Never saw one in Italy.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Me too. There are some in France and I think I saw one or two anywhere else in Europe. Spain? It's quite common in US though.


----------



## Verso

cougar1989 said:


> At summer 2017 I had to fill some liters with fuel into my car that I can come until Slovenia. I was at the rest area Esso Soave on the A4. It was around 5 in the morning. The Pump didn't work, so I went into the shop and spoke with the fuel seller. He said to me it is prepayment, so I gave him 10€ in cash, he looked a bit strange to me, I said at Slovenia it is cheaper, so I think he knows what I wanted. Later I looked to the pump and saw Prepayment only.


Can you order 50 liters of fuel directly from Saudi Arabia? Would probably be the cheapest option. :lol:


----------



## General Maximus

g.spinoza said:


> Never saw one in Italy.


Neither have I. Nor in Germany, but it's the norm everywhere in Belgium, and most service stations at night in France. 
In Belgium, all have automated options as well where you can use your card. In France more and more are appearing. 

In Italy at motorway services, they have seperate pumps for service and self-service. I always use self-service. Is there a set charge when using the service ones, or do they rely on tips?


----------



## g.spinoza

General Maximus said:


> Is there a set charge when using the service ones, or do they rely on tips?


Tipping is basically non-existent in Italy.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> Tipping is basically non-existent in Italy.



Also in restaurants?


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> Also in restaurants?


I never did, and I don't know any Italians who do.


----------



## General Maximus

I always tip, also in Italy at restaurants. So is there an extra charge when you get someone to fill up your vehicle for you?


----------



## MichiH

General Maximus said:


> I always tip, also in Italy at restaurants.


Me too  Maybe I should stop this policy now. I would save some money next week...


----------



## g.spinoza

General Maximus said:


> I always tip, also in Italy at restaurants.


I really fail to see the point of tipping. Would you pay a microwave oven 10% more because the clerk brought it to you from storage in the warehouse?
In which way is a waiter different than a clerk of a department store?



> So is there an extra charge when you get someone to fill up your vehicle for you?


Well yes, the fuel price is higher for that reason.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> Well yes, the fuel price is higher for that reason.


I've filled by accident at a "service" last year. It was 1.90 €/l instead of ~1.60 €/l... I realized it when the tank was almost full..... :bash: I think it was on A13 between Bologna and Padova.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Can you order 50 liters of fuel directly from Saudi Arabia? Would probably be the cheapest option. :lol:


The cheapest would be Venezuela :troll:


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> I really fail to see the point of tipping. Would you pay a microwave oven 10% more because the clerk brought it to you from storage in the warehouse?
> In which way is a waiter different than a clerk of a department store?


In Italy we never tip because most restaurants include "coperto" (service tax) in the bill. In other countries like the USA tipping is commonplace and not to tip is seen as rude.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> I've filled by accident at a "service" last year. It was 1.90 €/l instead of ~1.60 €/l... I realized it when the tank was almost full..... :bash: I think it was on A13 between Bologna and Padova.


Is Italy the only country that has this on a larger scale? 

I've often seen employees at fuel stations in Spain performing that service for you, but they don't charge more than the regular fuel price. Most of the time it was just bored staff that didn't had much to do. I've had the same guy filling up also working the cash register several times.


----------



## Wilhem275

Not many manned stations are left. In can think only of eni (former Agip) stations with both self and manned pumps (€€ vs. €€€).
Maybe other "premium" brands.

Avoid "Servito" pumps:

















Most generic brands are: fuel first, pay at desk later, when open; otherwise pay in advance at the machine near the pumps.
Even at some manned stations (eg. with a shop) payment is at the machine 24/7.

Just try at the machine first, worst case it will be disabled if the shop is open.

Also true that in motorways fuel is sensibly more expensive. Probably more convenient to just get out and find fuel nearby.

https://www.prezzibenzina.it/ is usually quite up to date, they have an app too. Easy way to compare prices in the area.


----------



## General Maximus

In Austria at motorway services, there's usually staff around offering to check your oil level or wash your windscreen. I usually let them, and reward them with anything between 2 and 5 euros depending on their service.

As for fuel prices, G, I don't take notice. I've got fuel cards and same rates apply anywhere when using Dkv or Eurotrafic.


----------



## narkelion

Servito at 1.600€/L.

I miss those times.


----------



## mgk920

italystf said:


> In Italy we never tip because most restaurants include "coperto" (service tax) in the bill. In other countries like the USA tipping is commonplace and not to tip is seen as rude.


My sense is that here in the USA, most Americans like to reward people on an individual basis for good jobs done when they are being served - it's a deep part of the USA's culture and a strong incentive for those in the service industry to provide good service.

Mike


----------



## General Maximus

In other countries it's common to tip. Especially in taxis and restaurants. I think in Italy as well, but just like anywhere else, some people rather don't.


----------



## Wilhem275

You can surely tip if the waiter did a good job, but tipping usually happens in fancier places (not your everyday pizzeria, I mean), where the bill would already be higher than average and an extra couple of € won't offset it too much.
Or, if many people were eating together, then we may round up the bill and leave the change to who waited the table.

But if you don't it's not like in the US or Germany where it would explicitly mean "Your service was crap" 


Taxi fares in Italy are a theft on their own, so there's really no need to add anything 
(this is due to closed market and lack of competition)


----------



## General Maximus

A few days ago I was at a Roadhouse restaurant at a shopping centre south of Milan with a friend. Food and service was great, so I gave the waitress an extra 3€. Very much appreciated, but she didn't look overly surprised. Perhaps because I'm foreign, and I was bound to tip anyway?


----------



## g.spinoza

General Maximus said:


> A few days ago I was at a Roadhouse restaurant at a shopping centre south of Milan with a friend. Food and service was great, so I gave the waitress an extra 3€. Very much appreciated, but she didn't look overly surprised. Perhaps because I'm foreign, and I was bound to tip anyway?


I think so. Tipping in Italy is something imported from abroad, so It Is much more common from foreigners.
I tried to tip once in a Greek restaurant in Bologna, the lady didn't let me and gave me back my change.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Of course Wikipedia will help with a map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Restaurant_Tipping_Gratuity_World_Map.svg



















Generous tipping only seems to be a U.S. thing. I never tip in the Netherlands.


----------



## Federicoft

*[I] Italy | road infrastructure • strade e autostrade*

In restaurants rounding up the bill to the nearest euro is common. A more substantial tip (up to 5-10%) is not expected but it would not cause surprise either.


----------



## narkelion

Rounding up not expected in the UK? They add 12.5% 'service charge' to every damn bill at restaurants, if they also expected tipping it'd be crazy.


----------



## Verso

Icelanders are insulted if tipped? :lol:


----------



## kreden

ChrisZwolle said:


> Of course Wikipedia will help with a map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Restaurant_Tipping_Gratuity_World_Map.svg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Generous tipping only seems to be a U.S. thing. I never tip in the Netherlands.


The colour for Slovenia is wrong. Tipping is not expected and the bill is often just rounded up.


----------



## General Maximus

I do tip in the Netherlands. I tip everywhere, actually

In the UK, if you wish to pay by card at some restaurants, the machine gives you an option to insert a gratitude amount...


----------



## kokomo

Another good thing I've learnt: tipping at restaurants not necessary if "coperto" is charged! Thanks


----------



## sponge_bob

IIRC a major tunnel on the cross Apennine motorways east of Rome was to close long term in time for summer because of pollution.
What is the latest on that proposed closure.?


----------



## g.spinoza

sponge_bob said:


> IIRC a major tunnel on the cross Apennine motorways east of Rome was to close long term in time for summer because of pollution.
> What is the latest on that proposed closure.?


The closure has been canceled when the concessionaire agreed to make the necessary works.

https://www.money.it/Revocata-Chiusura-Traforo-del-Gran-Sasso


----------



## italystf

^^ Works will last for one year and during that time only one lane per direction will be open.
Anyway, that's a good news for both mobility and environment: the route will remain open all the time, and proper wastewater treatment facilities will be built, reducing further pollution.


----------



## mistikos

*A2 SA-RC, from Cosenza to Montalto Uffugo/Rose:*


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Today the structure of the new viaduct of Annone, overpassing SS36 near Lecco (50 km N/E of Milan) has been placed 

Few years ago the viaduct collapsed due to an oversize load


----------



## Verso

Nice, but why did it take so long?


----------



## g.spinoza

It's not even that long, in Italian timescales


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Verso said:


> Nice, but why did it take so long?


Probably the judicial inquiry delayed everything.


----------



## brick84

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Today the structure of the new viaduct of Annone, overpassing SS36 near Lecco (50 km N/E of Milan) has been placed
> 
> Few years ago the viaduct collapsed due to an oversize load



^^^^

other video by ANAS


----------



## g.spinoza

First 7 km of Superstrada Pedemontana Veneta (SPV) have been opened this morning at 12:30, after 7 years of works, at a cost of ~120 M€.


----------



## pccvspw999

17 M€/km, isn't it quite a good price for it?


----------



## g.spinoza

Motorways building costs double that price.
But this isn't a motorway, so maybe some savings come from that.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It seems pretty cheap for a motorway that was built almost entirely below-grade.


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> Motorways building costs double that price.
> But this isn't a motorway, so maybe some savings come from that.





ChrisZwolle said:


> It seems pretty cheap for a motorway that was built almost entirely below-grade.


And that's the point: in what a motorway with 2+2 lanes and emergercy lane is so different to cost the double?
Roads shall have always the same quality of the build. Different standards, but same quality in materials and manufacturing. They shall last for same time, or even more if traffic is lower.

I'm not talking about external costs (expropriations aso.) or ground prices, but just for the build itself.


----------



## lucaf1

Superstrada Pedemontana Veneta is a motorway (green signal) but with a 110 km/h speed limit (like a superstrada aka strada extraurbana principale).

The Number is... SPV :bash:

So why green signal and maximum speed limit lower and a different name?

In 1999 the italian government began to understand the problem Of a missing fast link in that area.
So the goverment approved the project of a motorway.

Due to burocratic problems it’s faster to build a superstrada instead of a motorway.

Also it’s faster because you need to build a road with a maximum safe limit of 20 km/h less.

And also it’s faster to project a road direct from the Veneto region instead from Rome. 

So Veneto region decided to build a superstrada with a project finance.

But Pedemontana Veneta is large as a motorway (both lanes and hard shoulder) but it’s safe as a superstrada when you turn 

It’s a mess.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Bella Italia


----------



## sponge_bob

lucaf1 said:


> It’s a mess.


Not really, the English would have spent €50m a km on a road of that quality.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Stelvio Pass has partially opened. It appears to be only open from the Bormio side.


----------



## MichiH

I've been to Italy in the last weeks. I drove a lot, especially Autostradas (I have clinched more than 80% of mileage now). I've not been south of Salerno / Lecce though (scheduled for my next Italian road trip ).

I was surprised by:

1. There are so many (very small) construction sites on Autostradas. What the hell is going on here? Reduced speed limit, often lane closures - and quite often no workers seen anywhere on-site. For instance, I drove the whole A14. How many construction sites are there from north of Ancona to north of Foggia, 30? 40? 50? Hell....

2. I loved driving in Italy, especailly Torino downtown 5 years ago. I loved the chaos with gridlocks in roundabouts, the rude driving style, scooter overtaking like hell... The latter also happened to me but the chaos seems to be gone. Genova, Milano, Foggia, Rome,... It was so damn boring... like driving in... Germany

3. Speeding. If there is any speed limit, it is ignored! For instance, 50 limit out of town on Strada Statale instead of 90: You will be overtaken when creeping with 70...80 despite being in no-passing zones. 40 in construction sites on Autostrada instead of 130: 80 is too slow, you'll get flashed by car behind you. BUT: The general speed limits are meet quite well. I usually drove with cruise control 4km/h over the limit - which means exactly meeting the limit when GPS measured. I was rarly overtaken. Most cars drove a little bit slower (I was usually on the left lane) some damn slow (-10..20km/h) and less cars a little bit faster but I think there were only a handful of drivers goint more than 150km/h. And then, speed limit due to construction sites, everyone was speeding like hell! So weird!

And, I didn't get how TUTOR should work........


----------



## narkelion

TUTOR calculates average speed between two portals.

No chaos in Rome? Were you driving at 2AM on a Wednesday night?


----------



## MichiH

narkelion said:


> TUTOR calculates average speed between two portals.


I usually just saw one portal. I think only once (or twice?) I've clearly seen a beginning and an end portal. I never realized when I can go faster again. Or is the "signed portal" already the second one and when I see it, it's too late anyway? That's why I just drove 4km/h over the limit instead of ~10...




narkelion said:


> No chaos in Rome? Were you driving at 2AM on a Wednesday night?


Well, a lot of traffic, yes. But chaos, no. Roundabouts were empty paradises. Cars only entered them when there was no other car around. And red lights were respected, it was "just a recommendation to be more careful" when I drove in Torino years ago. But in Rome, Milano and other cities or towns cars immediately stopped when the red orange light appeared. That's not MY ITALY! :lol:


----------



## Wilhem275

MichiH said:


> 3. Speeding. If there is any speed limit, it is ignored! For instance, 50 limit out of town on Strada Statale instead of 90: You will be overtaken when creeping with 70...80 despite being in no-passing zones. 40 in construction sites on Autostrada instead of 130: 80 is too slow, you'll get flashed by car behind you. BUT: The general speed limits are meet quite well. I usually drove with cruise control 4km/h over the limit - which means exactly meeting the limit when GPS measured. I was rarly overtaken. Most cars drove a little bit slower (I was usually on the left lane) some damn slow (-10..20km/h) and less cars a little bit faster but I think there were only a handful of drivers goint more than 150km/h. And then, speed limit due to construction sites everyone was speeding like hell! So weird!


Italian public administrators are particularly paranoid (due to a mix of uncertain outcomes from the legal system and a general slooooow bureaucratic attitude), so we get a lot of road situations regulated in a much more restrictive fashion than the general law requires.
Typically, very low speed limits and passing bans for no actual reasons.

But then people ask to get away with anarchy, so we get the schizophrenic situation of extra low limits coupled with fully publicized speed cameras :lol:

The real damage done by unnecessarily strict rules is that the real dangerous spots don't get enough attention... the info gets lost in background noise.
Like, on a road designed for 90 km/h and limited to 50 most people will do 70-90 anyway... not knowing that maybe there's a specific curve which actually needs 50.
A 40 or 60 km/h construction zone on a highway can't be taken seriously and will be plainly ignored... make it 80 and the actual average speed will get lower.



Only way to get out of this situation is getting public managers with a spine.
Not going to happen in this political situation.


Tutor can work both as an average speed monitoring (calculates time between two portals) or as a regular speed camera. A single portal can read speed on the spot.
There's no specific beginning or end, any portal is both the end of the previous section and the beginning of the next one.

A legal trickery obliges operators to use only one method at a time, meaning portals can't be used as speed cams while average speed monitoring is active.
But there's no way to know what's going on at the moment, so better comply with both controls 


Torino is complete scum, in terms of driving :|


----------



## g.spinoza

Speed limits in Italy are usually a bit lower than in other countries, but what's really different is the passing zones: in Austria, or Germany, or France, local or national roads are usually all passing zones with the occasional solid middle line in tight curves. Italy is the other way around: you cannot pass for kilometers, for no obvious reason, then you have 200 m of a passing zone. 
I used to respect no passing zones in Italy, but now that I saw other countries... I mean, why the same kind of road is a passing zone in Austria and a no passing zone in Italy? I don't think physics is different...


----------



## intersezioni

MichiH said:


> I've been to Italy in the last weeks. I drove a lot, especially Autostradas (I have clinched more than 80% of mileage now). I've not been south of Salerno / Lecce though (scheduled for my next Italian road trip ).
> 
> I was surprised by:
> 
> 1. There are so many (very small) construction sites on Autostradas. What the hell is going on here? Reduced speed limit, often lane closures - and quite often no workers seen anywhere on-site. For instance, I drove the whole A14. How many construction sites are there from north of Ancona to north of Foggia, 30? 40? 50? Hell....
> 
> 2. I loved driving in Italy, especailly Torino downtown 5 years ago. I loved the chaos with gridlocks in roundabouts, the rude driving style, scooter overtaking like hell... The latter also happened to me but the chaos seems to be gone. Genova, Milano, Foggia, Rome,... It was so damn boring... like driving in... Germany
> 
> 3. Speeding. If there is any speed limit, it is ignored! For instance, 50 limit out of town on Strada Statale instead of 90: You will be overtaken when creeping with 70...80 despite being in no-passing zones. 40 in construction sites on Autostrada instead of 130: 80 is too slow, you'll get flashed by car behind you. BUT: The general speed limits are meet quite well. I usually drove with cruise control 4km/h over the limit - which means exactly meeting the limit when GPS measured. I was rarly overtaken. Most cars drove a little bit slower (I was usually on the left lane) some damn slow (-10..20km/h) and less cars a little bit faster but I think there were only a handful of drivers goint more than 150km/h. And then, speed limit due to construction sites, everyone was speeding like hell! So weird!
> 
> And, I didn't get how TUTOR should work........


Could it be that Germany has become like Italy? :nuts:


----------



## MichiH

intersezioni said:


> Could it be that Germany has become like Italy? :nuts:


About construction sites, yes! The number of _lavori in corso_ might be higher than in Germany. I'm not sure whether most of them are just short-term or even very long-term....

Speeding is different though. Germans do it the other way round :lol:


----------



## verreme

Everytime I drive on _autostrade_, I stick to 130 km/h because I fear TUTOR. Then I get passed by one, two, three drivers doing 150+ and start following them. TUTOR is a joke. I guess most of the time it's not active.

On other roads, speed limits are ridiculous so people ignore them. Same for passing bans. The problem has been already pointed out: as the rules are the same everywhere, drivers are not able to identify a particularly dangerous section. People will drive 80 on a rural road with 50 signs, and when they enter a village they'll keep doing 80 next to the town square because the signs are the same (50).

Spain has a similar problem with "Stop" signs. They are everywhere. You must stop two or three times to do some turns. Result: everyone runs the signs and just yields to oncoming traffic, if there's any. And on dangerous intersections when a "stop" sign is necessary, drivers will also run it. In other countries, such as France or the UK, "stop" signs are used only if strictly necessary. On most intersections you just have to yield.


----------



## Wilhem275

I agree.

But, don't underestimate the Tutor system, it works at randomized locations but it works.

Don't trust the runners, they don't know anything more than you do


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've been driving around Südtirol this week. I noticed the extreme amount of orange box speed cameras, but it appears that half of them are fake, with a sticker of a camera instead of an actual camera.

I clinched Timmelsjoch, Jaufenpass and Penserjoch but Stelvio is still closed. I drove the Ofenpass in Switzerland in pouring rain, there was no point going up the Umbrail in that weather. There is still a lot of snow at elevations over 2000 meters. I started in Mals but the weather was much worse than the forecast, I want to make videos and take scenic pictures, but that doesn't work when the scenery is shrouded in clouds. I had better luck at Timmelsjoch though.


----------



## valkrav

Wilhem275 said:


> don't underestimate the Tutor system, it works at randomized locations but it works.


Yes, I can confirm, it work
My collegue collect fine 2 weeks ago


----------



## keber

Autovelox boxes however are probably just boxes, right? Almost no one slows down before them even that they are clearly marked.
But I have to confirm MichiH observations: in Italy driving culture has vastly improved in the last 15 years. Maybe Italians don't see that but we, others, do see. Now just "some" infrastructure improvements have to be done (like strange speed limits and overtaking bans as I just experienced yesterday when driving SS125, also road numbering) and Germany will stay behind 😁


----------



## verreme

Wilhem275 said:


> I agree.
> 
> But, don't underestimate the Tutor system, it works at randomized locations but it works.
> 
> Don't trust the runners, they don't know anything more than you do


I imagine that. But given that I drive in Italy very seldom, the likelyhood of driving through active TUTOR gantries _and_ being fined is very low. So I assume the risk.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I've been driving around Südtirol this week. I noticed the extreme amount of orange box speed cameras, but it appears that half of them are fake, with a sticker of a camera instead of an actual camera.


Yeah that's also true. On A27 I drove 130 when there was a signposted speed camera and I had several drivers pass me at 160+.

We also have these dummy boxes in Spain (at least in my region -Catalonia-, don't know if they do it anywhere else) but they are mobile and they just chain them to a sign. I have never seen a radar device inside them, though on TV and press releases they show them.


----------



## Wilhem275

Orange boxes are pretty much all empty. I would say that recent cameras are all pole-mounted with ground sensors, but some boxes are still working.

On highways and main roads it's just common to cycle the camera through different boxes. On Sunday I went to Venice by bike and closely checked the boxes: one was fitted with camera and sensors, the other was empty, they just swap the device from time to time.


----------



## intersezioni




----------



## MichiH

I was surprised when I drove the new aligned A1Var from Firenze to Bologna at the end of my journey that "TUTOR active" was displayed in the tunnels. Never seen this before. However, I had no idea what's the actual speed limit :bash: I slowed down a bit and drove as fast as the other cars, about 105km/h. I think (and hope) that the limit was 110km/h.


----------



## verreme

^^ When I drove there (2017) the speed limit was 130 km/h. In the tunnel there were signs reading "Tutor attivo", but not in the open-air sections.


----------



## keber

It was the same few days ago. Also I saw that people are still confused about choosing A1 diretissima or panoramica and they dangerously change direction until the very last moment.


----------



## Wilhem275

IMO they should have renamed the old A1 to a new number (just as happened with A57).
They went for a marketing choice but it's very disfunctional.

I think limit was 110 when new-A1 opened, recently was raised to 130, but it's all second hand info.


----------



## italystf

3rd lane on 5 km of A4 between Gonars rest area and the junction with A23 will be completed in late July.
http://www.triesteprima.it/cronaca/terza-corsia-fine-luglio.html


----------



## keber

This you mean on one half just, right? It didn't look to me that advanced 10 days ago.


----------



## x-type

keber said:


> This you mean on one half just, right? It didn't look to me that advanced 10 days ago.


I think it might be. Traffic at A4xA23 is going on new ramps already, and it was the most complex thing to do there. Probably it is the reason of opening 3+3 of this short section.

How about Portogruaro - Noventa? I am more wondering about it since they haven't touched it yet.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*SS44 Jaufenpass*

Some photos of the Jaufen Pass, a 2094 meter high pass of SS44 between Merano and Sterzing. It is the northernmost pass road that is located entirely in Italy. It's approximately 25 kilometer southwest of the Brenner Pass.


SS44 Jaufenpass-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS44 Jaufenpass-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS44 Jaufenpass-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## g.spinoza

Autostrade per l'Italia published a tender for the construction of third lane on A11, between Firenze and Pistoia. The tender is worth 248 M€ for 14 km of 3-lane expansion.

https://www.stradeeautostrade.it/no...izzare-la-terza-corsia-tra-firenze-e-pistoia/


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> The only 2-laned segment of SS99 had a length of 1km. I guess they've also renovated a segment of the already 4-laned road to the south? And the SS96 gap was more than 3km according to OSM. Maybe it was partially completed but not yet in service?


No idea.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I found this on Wikipedia. The old route number for the strada statale (national road). According to Wikipedia, it was used until 1992.

Are they still around? I haven't traveled that extensively in Italy but I've never seen one, not even on photos.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> I found this on Wikipedia. The old route number for the strada statale (national road). According to Wikipedia, it was used until 1992.
> 
> Are they still around? I haven't traveled that extensively in Italy but I've never seen one, not even on photos.


Current scheme has the colours reversed. I didn't see one of those in a long time.


----------



## italystf

^^There are still some around

https://www.google.it/maps/@45.9406...4!1scai9iMWp4iuUG3G0AWlLRQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.it/maps/@45.7897...4!1sPDQjDVqwEvxCnoQGd-jpmQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> ^^There are still some around
> 
> https://www.google.it/maps/@45.9406...4!1scai9iMWp4iuUG3G0AWlLRQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> https://www.google.it/maps/@45.7897...4!1sPDQjDVqwEvxCnoQGd-jpmQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


But those are recent, it's done to detach the backgrounds of the big sign from the small ones.
The old white ones, in markers and single signs, are gone.


----------



## narkelion

That's not recent al all, looks very old actually.

Recent ones have blue-on-blue signs:


----------



## g.spinoza

You're right. As soon as I posted I realized that as well.


----------



## g.spinoza

Works for the long-awaited so-called "Valtrompia motorway", north of Brescia, have finally begun. For the time being only propedeutic works are ongoing (explosive ordnance disposal), works proper are going to begin in September.

This project has been downsized several times: now it is not a motorway anymore, it is a "raccordo" 6.7 km long, from Concesio to Sarezzo with a single-bore tunnel 3.5 km long and a final 800 m viaduct ending just before Lumezzane.

One of the issues that forced such downsize was a change in law, which earlier made the construction company owner of the muck and earth from the digging (so that it could re-use it), while now it forces the company to dispose of it.
Basically works are going to cost the same as before, but the tunnel will be single-bore instead of double-bore.


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> The old white ones, in markers and single signs, are gone.


Here is one (at least it was 8 years ago).


----------



## g.spinoza

The overpass over A21, between Montirone and Poncarale, which was badly damaged in 2018 after an accident and subsequent fire, was replaced few nights ago:










It weighs 320 tonnes and it is 60 m long.

After the load tests it will be completed and opened for traffic, 1.5 years after the accident.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

italystf said:


> https://www.google.it/maps/@45.9406...4!1scai9iMWp4iuUG3G0AWlLRQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


These are very strange!
Because use old-style road number, but indicates actual destinations.

Explain: that it's old pre-1992 style, but indicate "Conegliano", and before 1992 the A28 motorway goes only to Pordenone… (The stretch to Conegliano was opened in 2010).


----------



## italystf

Autobahn-mann said:


> These are very strange!
> Because use old-style road number, but indicates actual destinations.
> 
> Explain: that it's old pre-1992 style, but indicate "Conegliano", and before 1992 the A28 motorway goes only to Pordenone… (The stretch to Conegliano was opened in 2010).


The extension of A28 towards Conegliano was planned long time ago (and the part till Sacile was actually opened in the 1990s)... so the signs to Conegliano were already installed (or at least made and stored in some Autovie Venete warehouse).

EDIT: The section Pordenone-Fontanafredda was opened on 1st August 1992 and the new style signs have been issued since 1st January 1993.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ Nice, thanks!
But I've said that also because one of the original plan was to continue the A28 to A23 instead of A27.
I didn't expect that Autovie Venete was so farsighted!


----------



## italystf

Autobahn-mann said:


> ^^ Nice, thanks!
> But I've said that also because one of the original plan was to continue the A28 to A23 instead of A27.
> I didn't expect that Autovie Venete was so farsighted!


The original, early 1970s, plan for A28 is the one that was actually built (completed in 2010 following strictly the 1970s plan, so that the A27-A28 junction is substandard with dangerously short ramps and acceleration and deceleration lanes hno.
The project to link A28 and A23 (Cimpello-Gemona link) is more recent AFAIK. A short (3 km) double carriaggeway (numbered RA16) was opened between A28 and SS13 east of Pordenone. It used to have green motorway signs until around 10 years ago. A single-carriaggeway express road of 27 km (SR177) was opened between Cimpello and Sequals in the 1990s. Works have never started on the Sequals-Gemona section.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^AFAI-Remember, the very original plan of the 70s was only to connect Pordenone with A4, so A28 was kinda like a spur motorway, and only later was decided the prolungation of it.
I suppose that this was the reason why it's the only free-toll motorway in northern Italy (excluding ringroads expressways).
If you have some sources I'll be very happy to see that.


----------



## italystf

Autobahn-mann said:


> ^^AFAI-Remember, the very original plan of the 70s was only to connect Pordenone with A4, so A28 was kinda like a spur motorway, and only later was decided the prolungation of it.
> I suppose that this was the reason why it's the only free-toll motorway in northern Italy (excluding ringroads expressways).
> If you have some sources I'll be very happy to see that.


I'm not sure, but when they completed it in 2010, media were talking about how the project lasted 40 years and how substandard the A27/A28 junction was because it was designed decades before.
A27 from Mestre to Vittorio Veneto Nord was opened in 1972, A28 from Portogruaro to Pordenone in 1974, so it is possible that also the section in between was planned in the 1970s.
Media are not to always to be trusted, however. Many news have said that A2 (ex A3) needed 50 years to be built. It's not true, as it was built in 1966-74 and reconstructed in 1997-2016. Or that SS106 in Calabria is under construction since 1928. 1928 is just the year when the SS106 number was assigned, and only in recent decades they considered to expand some parts into an expressway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*SS 508 Penser Joch*

I took some photos of Penser Joch, a 2211 meter high mountain pass on SS 508 from Bolzano to Sterzing in South Tyrol.


SS508 Penserjoch-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS508 Penserjoch-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS508 Penserjoch-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS508 Penserjoch-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS508 Penserjoch-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Passo Campolongo*

The 1875 meter high Campolongo Pass is the lowest of the 4 mountain passes around the Sella Group.

When you drive south through the Gadertal from Bruneck you suddenly appear out of the forest with the vertical rockwalls of the Dolomites all around you. This transition is interesting, especially because you can't see much of the Dolomites from the nearby larger Pustertal (except on its eastern end).


SS244 Passo Campolongo-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS244 Passo Campolongo-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS244 Passo Campolongo-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS244 Passo Campolongo-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS244 Passo Campolongo-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## brick84

*SS106 “Jonica”: "variante di Palizzi (Reggio Calabria)" opened to traffic*


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ For now, first carriageway only


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It looks like the southernmost superstrada on the Italian mainland.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> It looks like the southernmost superstrada on the Italian mainland.


Being that the southernmost piece of land on the Italian mainland, I can't disagree.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Passo Pordoi*

A couple of photos of Passo Pordoi, a 2239 meter high mountain pass on the south side of the Sella Group in the Dolomites. It's on the border of Veneto and Südtirol. There is an affordable cable-car up into the mountains (which I took).


Passo Pordoi-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


Passo Pordoi-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


Passo Pordoi-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


Passo Pordoi-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


Passo Pordoi-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Apparently the toll collectors on Italian toll roads have announced a strike next Sunday and Monday: https://www.thelocal.it/20190729/italian-motorway-strike-august-4-5

Some fear a traffic chaos. On the other hand you can probably still use the ETC or credit card lanes. The manual toll collector is on its last legs anyway, replaced by credit cards and transponders. 

It sucks to lose your job as a toll collector, but on the other hand it is a boring and unhealthy profession.


----------



## keber

I hope people will start to use credit cards faster. When there is a queue before a toll station, automatic credit card lanes are almost always empty - and 15 other lanes crowded.


----------



## narkelion

In the past, it was quite a joy to hear about toll booth operators going on strike: motorways would have been free for that time.

That was because Telepass was still on its early days and credit/debit cards still weren't a thing, it was either viacards or cash.

Now, with all the cards-only and telepass-only and the unmanned booth, I think they'll just shut down the manned ones and have you go through the automatic ones.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> I hope people will start to use credit cards faster. When there is a queue before a toll station, automatic credit card lanes are almost always empty - and 15 other lanes crowded.


This always puzzled me. Before I got the Telepass transponder, I used my debit card on the viacard lanes while everyone else was stuck in the cash lanes. It's not like debit cards are rare, why are people still going to the cash booths?


----------



## lampsakos21

g.spinoza said:


> This always puzzled me. Before I got the Telepass transponder, I used my debit card on the viacard lanes while everyone else was stuck in the cash lanes. It's not like debit cards are rare, why are people still going to the cash booths?




Maybe they are afraid of fraud or overcharging . By the way i would like to ask you , can a person that lives abroad amd is not resident in italy , to obtain the telepass transponder ? I was always relying on the viacard prepaid option :/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are several providers that issue toll transponders that work in Italy, France, Portugal and Spain. You don't need to be a resident of those countries.


----------



## g.spinoza

lampsakos21 said:


> Maybe they are afraid of fraud or overcharging . By the way i would like to ask you , can a person that lives abroad amd is not resident in italy , to obtain the telepass transponder ? I was always relying on the viacard prepaid option :/


I think so.
The subscription webpage:
https://www.telepass.com/KTI/shop-online-go/1-creazione-account-telepass-go?lang=en

allows for other nationalities than Italian, so I think it is possible.
Just today, I've seen a Polish registered bus entering the motorway from the Telepass lane.

Some people also rented the box from here:
https://www.tolltickets.com/en/


----------



## narkelion

Ah, I think nothing stops you.

As long as you have an italian IBAN to connect the Telepass direct debit to.

I tried with my UK bank account, and got rejected.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I have a French transponder (from AREA) and I used my Dutch IBAN account number. It works fine (and has been since I got it in 2014).


----------



## Wilhem275

I'm quoting Spinoza [the editor is broken]:


> This always puzzled me. Before I got the Telepass transponder, I used my debit card on the viacard lanes while everyone else was stuck in the cash lanes. It's not like debit cards are rare, why are people still going to the cash booths?


Because nobody knows their card can be used for that. I think any debit card issued in Italy, in the last decade at least, has the "fast pay" logo meaning it can be used with no PIN at toll booths.
Ask 10 friends if they know about it...










I don't know why operators don't promote this with a campaign. Maybe they wish to push more people to buy a Telepass.

Recently I had to travel without my Telepass in heavy traffic and I noticed that Cards Only lanes (blue markings) are disappearing, replaced by payment machines. Which means you have to mix with cash payers anyway, even if you just need a 10 seconds operation.
Cards Only lanes are also heavily used by foreigners creating long queues, I guess due to card compatibility issues.

I also noticed that many Telepass lanes are receiving a "EU transponder" logo.


----------



## brick84

*"Tangenziale di Catania", Sicily*

26 July

_Messina-->Siracusa_


----------



## x-type

Wilhem275 said:


> Recently I had to travel without my Telepass in heavy traffic and I noticed that Cards Only lanes (blue markings) are disappearing, replaced by payment machines. Which means you have to mix with cash payers anyway, even if you just need a 10 seconds operation.
> Cars Only lanes are also heavily used by foreigners creating long queues, I guess due to card compatibility issues.
> 
> I also noticed that many Telepass lanes are receiving a "EU transponder" logo.


You're absolutely right, blue lanes have almost fully dissappeared. Also, manned cash lanes aer dissappearing as well. There is a plenty of exits without them.
On the other hand, automatic cash payment is so slow... I hate that thing for money opening, waiting, closing, counting... Also, automatic card payment isn't the fastest thing ever. For instance, it is one of rare things that works better here in HR regarding the tolls. I'd like to see contactless card payment, that's the fastest way to pay it without Telepass.


----------



## tunnel owl

ChrisZwolle said:


> I have a French transponder (from AREA) and I used my Dutch IBAN account number. It works fine (and has been since I got it in 2014).




I used my german IBAN for french and italian transponders via tolltickets and it worked perfectly. I would like to be charged like that in Germany, just because telepass is such a wonderful technical solution with all that beeping, no just joking...


For Croatia, the telepass system there has to be charged before riding like a prepaid card. I did not get this managed from Germany and got stucked at Lucko traffic-jam way back home, .


----------



## g.spinoza

A5 Turin-Aosta has been closed again between Quincinetto and Pont-St-Martin because the sensors monitoring a slide over the motorway triggered an alarm. Three hours later it was reopened, but officials "suggest" to avoid driving on it.
Sensors measured a 26-cm movement since October. It is reported that the final solution would be blasting the front with explosives, but it is hardly doable becouse it would mean closing motorway, national road and railway for weeks, i.e. making Aosta Valley completely unreachable from the rest of Italy.

https://torino.repubblica.it/cronac...rendete_l_autostrada_torino-aosta_-232328386/


----------



## DrOzda

I was using both Revolut and Curve prepaid cards ( to avoid bandits interchange fees issued by polish banks) on Italian and French toll gates dozen of times last two weeks without any issue. And can confirm that in most cases CC lanes were empty while cash possible were occupied by cars.
My friend had problem with it's CC (propably daily transaction limit was overrun ) and had no cash. Had to wait and received manual ticket to pay on website during next 14 days.
BTW driven famous SS3bis from Ravenna to Perugia and it is much, much better than last year - worst segments were either resurfaced or under construction. It is now driveable.


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> This seems to be a service tunnel to the new A3 tunnel: https://www.google.ch/maps/place/89...b7e4355e3ab28946!8m2!3d38.283768!4d15.8033745
> 
> Here they split the old A3 route with no apparent reason: https://www.google.ch/maps/place/89...b7e4355e3ab28946!8m2!3d38.283768!4d15.8033745 (maybe they wanted to route northbound traffic on SS18 ratehr than on the old A3 which ends on a secondary road?)
> 
> Streetview here still shows the old road.


It is a bit strange. I think they wanted to pre-empt a situation where they'd dismantle the old A3 while also making it easier to put toll booths in the future on A2 if they so decide.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Maybe to avoid people going at motorway-like speeds...


----------



## intersezioni

sorry bro, it's in italian :-(


----------



## Wilhem275

What a great choice for the thumbnail icard: icard: icard:


----------



## lampsakos21

intersezioni said:


> sorry bro, it's in italian :-(




Complimemti . Vorrei ringraziare te e tutti gli altri utenti per avermi fornito tutti gli ultimi aggiornamenti al riguardo di telepass . Grazie !


----------



## mistikos

SS18 - From Amantea to Torremezzo:


----------



## intersezioni




----------



## g.spinoza

Corte di Cassazione, the highest court of law in Italy, canceled the determination of the previous judiciary steps regarding the patent violation of Safety Tutor by Autostrade per l'Italia.

Safety Tutors can be immediately reactivated and, according to Autostrade, they will, in time for the end of summer vacation period.

https://www.quattroruote.it/news/vi...0nAZpvYCBR2UlBs3388qP9lqhCgegbWpgIzCEaRx56EFM


----------



## g.spinoza

Gavia pass road, which connects Bormio with Tonale pass, is closed from the north due to a rockfall:


















The pass itself is still accessible from the south.

The road was already closed because some smaller rocks fell during the past few days.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*SS242 Passo Sella*

Some photos of the southern approach of the Sella Pass in the Dolomites. I found this to be one of the greatest roads in the Alps, the scenery is amazing, with those tall rock walls and a thin forest that offers a lot of views even below the tree line. 


SS242 Passo Sella-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS242 Passo Sella-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS242 Passo Sella-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS242 Passo Sella-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS242 Passo Sella-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS242 Passo Sella-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS242 Passo Sella-13 by European Roads, on Flickr


SS242 Passo Sella-16 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## keber

^^ I agree, I've driven around Sella roads 4 times with a bicycle and some those passes even more often.


----------



## g.spinoza

Guys, do you wanna laugh?

It seems that Autostrada Catania-Siracusa, previously known via different denominations like NSA 339, has been officially named Autostrada A01.

Utterly utterly ridiculous.

https://twitter.com/clientiANAS/status/1164174130796802048?s=20


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I Googled a bit and it turns out that the 'A01' has been in use for some time, at least going back to 2014: http://www.stradeanas.it/it/printpdf/78996


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> I Googled a bit and it turns out that the 'A01' has been in use for some time, at least going back to 2014: http://www.stradeanas.it/it/printpdf/78996


Yes I found that as well. Lucky that nobody is using this nonsense.


----------



## g.spinoza

Project for a bypass of Chienes/Kiens in Val Pusteria/Pustertal, South Tyrol.










The bypass will be 2.7 km long, with a 1 km tunnel under the village, and will cost 63.5 M€.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Guys, do you wanna laugh?
> 
> It seems that Autostrada Catania-Siracusa, previously known via different denominations like NSA 339, has been officially named Autostrada A01.
> 
> Utterly utterly ridiculous.
> 
> https://twitter.com/clientiANAS/status/1164174130796802048?s=20


The temporary number NSA 339 had been scrapped years ago, so that motorway was numberless.
I'd had preferred A18, but even an aparently nonsense number like A01 is better than no number at all.


----------



## sponge_bob

I am not happy.  The man who cancelled the remaining A3 modernisation, also shortened the A3 by many kilometers near Reggio Calabria and then completely abolished the A3 to hide all this, calling it the A2 instead in the hope that Google and the world kindly forgets about the A3........is back in government again. I mean Renzi.  

I want the full length A3 back again and then I want it all modernised, not just 80% of it.


----------



## narkelion

Renzi is not back in the government.

And rebuilding that A3 for the THIRD time and keeping it free is spitting in the face of those people in Italy that pay for every inch of any motorway they drive on.

Nothing has been shortened anywhere and the 30km that haven't been rebuilt are the most complex ones, straight into the mountains and the ones with the lowest average traffic. 30km driving at 90-100 km/h over 600 of brand new motorway.

But no, always complain.


----------



## Verso

narkelion said:


> But no, always complain.


People always complain. Do you know how much millionaires complain despite having a shitload of money?


----------



## Kolerus

Hello,
is possible to own Telepass when i am not italian citizen and i dont have italian bank account?
Thank you.


----------



## g.spinoza

Kolerus said:


> Hello,
> is possible to own Telepass when i am not italian citizen and i dont have italian bank account?
> Thank you.


 AFAIK it's not possible. There was a discussion a while back, it seems there are ways to rent it, but I don't really know.


----------



## g.spinoza

Stelvio pass has been closed, almost 50 cm of snow at the top
https://video.corriere.it/milano/va...tri-neve/7034a82c-d228-11e9-a7da-cb5047918faa


----------



## italystf

I don't get why everybody got mad about the conditions of the old A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria, while nobody ever said anything about equally bad old mountain motorways in the North, like parts of A6, A7, or A10 (that, unlikely of A2 - former A3, are tolled too).


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> I don't get why everybody got mad about the conditions of the old A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria, while nobody ever said anything about equally bad old mountain motorways in the North, like parts of A6, A7, or A10 (that, unlikely of A2 - former A3, are tolled too).


Because they're in the North, people do not complain as much.


----------



## mistikos

A2 Mediterranea, from Rende/Cosenza Nord to Cosenza:


----------



## brick84

*Highway A18 Siracusa-Gela, Sicily*

works for new stretch *"Rosolini-Modica"*

update works on viaduct "Salvia", among Ispica and Pozzallo.


----------



## kokomo

*A2 Baronissi Ovest* July'19

Oh man, those Autogrill are sooo darn good


----------



## kokomo

*SP430 *(ss18Var) near Cannetiello (Salerno)

The railroad bridge corresponds to the main line connecting Salerno with Calabria.




Same *SP430* now near Poderia, still going southbound. I found several yellow signs saying Giunto. What did they mean? You can see several of them here.




When I reached Policastro Bussentino I found out that I was taking the wrong road, the SS18, when I needed to get the SS17Var in order to get to the A2.




The *A2* near Cartolano, when the highway starts to border the Tirrenian coast.




Intersection of *SS182 & SS18* at Vibo Valentia. Which way to Capo Vaticano? You get lost with sooo many signs


----------



## narkelion

"Giunto" means "expansion joint".

Those signs are there to notify the snow ploughs to be careful when removing snow from that road, as they might get their front blades stuck in the space between the two spans of the bridge.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That explains those sticks at bridges in Spain too. They don't have a sign, but the function appears to be similar.


----------



## davide84

kokomo said:


> Same *SP430* now near Poderia, still going southbound. I found several yellow signs saying Giunto. What did they mean? You can see several of them here.


Giunto means "joint"; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_joint
Those signs tell drivers to pay attention to possible bumps resulting from the presence of the joints; the yellow background indicates a temporary situation associated with construction works. Note that the concept of "construction works" can also apply to identified damages and anomalies without people actually working there at the moment.


----------



## mistikos

kokomo said:


> The *A2* near Cartolano, when the highway starts to border the Tirrenian coast.


Excuse me, but Cartolano is not a town, it's only a little river (that you pass through after Falerna's junction)! You were near Falerna, and by its junction you can go to tyrrenian cities like Amantea, Nocera or Gizzeria, without going along SS585 "Fondo Valle del Noce" if you come from Northern Italy!


----------



## kokomo

My copilot's notes stated Cartolano, but she copied it from the GPS, so she might be wrong of course


----------



## kokomo

When we left Capo Vaticano, after 30 minutes of contemplating the beautiful scenery, we went northboud via the *SP22* towards Tropea. This brick bridge is used by the railway line going to Reggio Calabria.




Ok, we reached Tropea but I was told to be very careful with the ZTL so we had to look for a parking spot without entering it.






Tropea was a beautiful place, and we really loved it so much. After staying for a couple of days we went eastbound, this time for Matera in Basilicata. Our first stop was at another Autogrill on the *A2 *at Tarsia Est. I even found out that there were traffic cameras hidden on that footbridge 






We continued our way, this time through the SS283 and SS534 towards the Ionian coast, where we reached one of Italy's most complicated and dangerous (at least that's what I read before leaving) the *SS106*. I did not find the road that troublesome although there were lots of trucks which make overpassing very complicated. However, it had very nice scenery too and the ride was enjoyable.




Finally, we took the SP3 and *SS7* towards Matera. It was a long ride but happy to reach the place.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Free access means you can enter


----------



## kokomo

Yes, but it was a Sunday and the following day the cameras would have made a feast out of me! Honestly, it's a pain in the back those darn ZTLs...

Finally, when we left Matera, we took the *SS7* southbound, which was also decorated with huge trees on each side.


----------



## g.spinoza

SS106 is not a problem where you were, it is more on the South, on the Calabrian coast.


----------



## FiveYears

@kokomo

Nice trip, we made it quite similar in July from Bari to San Giovanni in Fiore, where from we made some wonderful central calabrian trips. All roads were in relatively good condition (and we used entirely every kind of road), except those around Sila national park which wideness is ok, but to much `buca` ruined the experience. All the time you must be very concentrated on them. But, after all, conclusion is that Calabria has very good road network, especially considering all negative voices about the region and A2 is free of charge. :cheers:


----------



## kokomo

5years,

I drove 2400 km in two weeks and let me tell you that even on the poorer zones of Italy roads had all of them signs and pavement was fairly acceptable. There were patches but no potholes at all. The only things that I did not find amusing were: speed cameras everywhere, changing speed limits frequent (not unusual to drop from 90 to 50 kmh) and the difficulty of finding parking places. Plus, GPS used to direct me through the most direct routes which involved, especially in Puglia, unpaved roads. 

But I loved driving a lot kay:


----------



## mgk920

kokomo said:


> Yes, but it was a Sunday and the following day the cameras would have made a feast out of me! Honestly, it's a pain in the back those darn ZTLs...


What all is and is not allowed the rest of the week?

Mike


----------



## g.spinoza

Sunday and Saturday usually ZTL's are off, so you can enter the city by car. Some cities have a smaller, permanent ZTL where you can't enter at all.
In weekdays, ZTL's are monitored by cameras. Each city has a different period during the day when you cannot enter, for instance between 7.30 and 19.30. Turin's particular in this sense because that period is limited at 7.30-10.30.


----------



## g.spinoza

A video, made by newspaper Repubblica, on the construction of new Morandi bridge in Genoa:


----------



## kokomo

A final batch of photos

*SS16 *near Monopoli in Puglia




These are on the *A14* towards Naples


----------



## g.spinoza

It's A16 which goes to Naples, not A14...


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ It's true: but the first photo was taken in A14, the second on A14/A16 IC, and the latter on A16.


----------



## kokomo

You're right... typo kay:

BTW, why do some get called A and other E? it's confusing...


----------



## g.spinoza

kokomo said:


> You're right... typo kay:
> 
> BTW, why do some get called A and other E? it's confusing...


All the Italian motorways have an "A" denomination.
Some of them are concurrent with International E-road network, which gives them also an "E" denomination.

There are some A roads which do not have E denomination (A31, for instance) and some E roads which are not motorways and do not possess an A denomination (SS3bis, for instance).


----------



## Wilhem275

One thing I hate of Italian motorways is this way of putting directional signs AFTER the road splits.
At least this one is big and high, sometimes it's just a regular small sign placed between the two branches...

Tell me how the hell can I choose here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.683...226.38298&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## narkelion

What's extremely funny is that if you look at 2011, just a few years ago, for the same junction...


----------



## Wilhem275

:cripes: :nuts:


----------



## g.spinoza

Kolerus said:


> Hello,
> is possible to own Telepass when i am not italian citizen and i dont have italian bank account?
> Thank you.


There is a piece of news on Italian newspaper "La Stampa" regarding this.
https://www.lastampa.it/economia/20...le-discriminazione-dei-consumatori-1.37503648
Italian authority Antitrust, which is responsible for fair trade regarding European companies, opened a file against Telepass because it requires an Italian bank account and this violates European rules ("IBAN discrimination").

Telepass replied stating that it's not true, and many customers activated an account using foreing bank accounts. Sometimes it's not possible because there is a procedure for owner identification that can go wrong: in this case, an alternate method called "Go By Telepass" can be activated, based on credit card.


----------



## narkelion

When I tried using my UK IBAN, I didn't manage to get it. They specifically wanted an italian IBAN. 

This was back in 2017 though.


----------



## g.spinoza

narkelion said:


> When I tried using my UK IBAN, I didn't manage to get it. They specifically wanted an italian IBAN.
> 
> This was back in 2017 though.


Maybe you can by going physically to one of their offices.


----------



## narkelion

Maybe I could have.

I have an italian account too now, so problem solved.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Here's the signup page, I haven't gone through the whole process, but you can select a residence address from a dozen of EU countries or so.

https://www.telepass.com/KTI/shop-online-go/1-creazione-account-telepass-go?lang=en


----------



## brick84

*A nice shot taken about "Tangenziale di Catania", junction for A19 Palermo-Catania*














by _Antonio Oliveri
_


----------



## g.spinoza

Works are ongoing since May 2017 in Milan for the construction of dynamic 4th lane on the A4. When the dynamic lane is off, max speed will be 90 km/h. The dynamic lane, when on, will be limited to 70 km/h.
Deadline is 30 June 2021.


----------



## roaddor

Are there any plans in Italy to build a motorway Brindisi-Taranto-A2 heading Reggio di Calabria?


----------



## g.spinoza

roaddor said:


> Are there any plans in Italy to build a motorway Brindisi-Taranto-A2 heading Reggio di Calabria?


Brindisi-Taranto is already covered by SS7, which is completely 2+2 superstrada (expressway).
Taranto-connection A2 in Sibari is covered by SS106, completely superstrada in that stretch as well.
Connection A2 -> Reggio: some stretches have been already replaced by superstrada, but I don't think it will ever be completely covered.

In short: no plans.


----------



## roaddor

^^
Thanks. This is what I wanted to know - travelling from Brindisi to Palermo all the way on 2x2 roads. Of course getting on A2 will be at the node Firmo Saracena Sibari. I was not sure if everything was built as 2x2 from Taranto to A2/ Firmo junction along the gulf of Taranto.


----------



## g.spinoza

roaddor said:


> ^^
> Thanks. This is what I wanted to know - travelling from Brindisi to Palermo all the way on 2x2 roads. Of course getting on A2 will be at the node Firmo Saracena Sibari. I was not sure if everything was built as 2x2 from Taranto to A2/ Firmo junction along the gulf of Taranto.


I went through the map and it seems that one stretch of SS106 near Marina di Roseto Capo Spulico is still one carriageway. The junction between SS106 and SS534 (which leads to A2) is one carriageway as well.


----------



## mistikos

*A2 Salerno-Reggio Calabria, from Altilia to Falerna:*


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *SP103 Milan:* Segrate (A51) – Segrate 1.3km (October 2017 to September 2019) – project – map





MichiH said:


> To be opened September 2019 according to a news article from March 2018.


To be opened "March-June 2020" according to a news article from March 2019.


----------



## mistikos

*A2 Mediterranea, from Pizzo Calabro to S. Onofrio:*







A18 Messina-Catania soon...


----------



## mistikos

*Last A2 video, from Scilla to Villa San Giovanni:*


----------



## mistikos

*A20 - Tangenziale di Messina - From Messina Boccetta to Messina Sud/Tremestieri:*


----------



## Suburbanist

These videos remember of what could have been with the Messina Strait bridge


----------



## mistikos

*A18 Messina-Catania - From Tremestieri to Roccalumera:*


----------



## mistikos

*A18 Messina-Catania from Roccalumera to Taormina:*


----------



## pascalwithvespa95

mistikos said:


> *A18 Messina-Catania from Roccalumera to Taormina:*


The toll isn´t cheaper in souther Italy, right? Because the roads are way worse than in the northern part.


----------



## g.spinoza

Messina - Catania costs 3.7 € for 100 km, so it's way cheaper than in the North. 100 km of Brescia - Milan on the A4 costs 8 €.


----------



## mistikos

pascalwithvespa95 said:


> The toll isn´t cheaper in souther Italy, right? Because the roads are way worse than in the northern part.


Yes, for 36 km costs about 2€ I remember (I wasn't driving this time)


----------



## brick84

*A56 - Tangenziale di Napoli
*


----------



## mistikos

*A18 From Taormina to Roccalumera:*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Staller Sattel*

The _Staller Sattel_ is a 2052 meter high pass on the border of Italy and Austria, or more precise South Tyrol and East Tyrol. 

The road on the Italian side is narrow, it climbs 400 meters over the last few kilometers from Lake Antholz to the summit. 

Traffic is alternating, regulated by traffic lights with fixed times. The road is open for 15 minutes per hour, followed by 15 minutes to clear the road, after which traffic in the other direction has the same timeframes. So the maximum waiting time is 45 minutes.


Staller Sattel 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


Staller Sattel 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Staller Sattel 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


Staller Sattel 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


Staller Sattel 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## mistikos

*A18 Messina-Catania from Roccalumera to Messina Sud/Tremestieri:*


----------



## mistikos

*A20 Messina-Palermo from Tremestieri to Boccetta:*


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> The _Staller Sattel_ is a 2052 meter high pass on the border of Italy and Austria, or more precise South Tyrol and East Tyrol.
> 
> The road on the Italian side is narrow, it climbs 400 meters over the last few kilometers from Lake Antholz to the summit.
> 
> Traffic is alternating, regulated by traffic lights with fixed times. The road is open for 15 minutes per hour, followed by 15 minutes to clear the road, after which traffic in the other direction has the same timeframes. So the maximum waiting time is 45 minutes.




Been there few years ago, I liked the place a lot. The Austrian side is much more barren than the Italian side up to a certain elevation.

I got a picture of the Austrian side from the top of a mountain:


----------



## mistikos

*A2 Mediterranea, from Villa San Giovanni to Scilla:*


----------



## IThomas

*GENOA: THE POLCEVERA PARK AND THE RED CIRCLE*










​
*The project was designed by Stefano Boeri Architetti, Metrogramma, Inside Outside, Mobility in Chain, Transsolar, Tempo Riuso, H&A Associati, Laura Gatti, Luca Vitone, Secondo Antonio Accotto.*

“A Red Steel Circle. A ring that embraces – passing under the new bridge – an area made of iron, water, cement and asphalt. The “Red Circle” symbolising the powerful local tradition of blast furnaces, cranes, and overhead cranes, runs along the locations where the tragedy of 14 August 2018 occurred. It embraces them without separating them from their context, linking them together, […] joining the separate sections through bike/pedestrian path and distributing the renewable energy generated by the solar collectors – thermal and photovoltaic – located on the roofs of the buildings, by the Wind Tower and by the piezoelectric flooring (which symbolically contribute to the energy balance) converting into energy the traffic flows that run through the new Bridge and the Circle. Energy and movement that flow into the Wind Tower“. This is how Stefano Boeri, group leader of the team that won the competition, opens the presentation that summarises the key points of the project.










​
The urban project, named “The Polcevera Park and The Red Circle” has been thought out as a system of parks with different ecologies and infrastructures for sustainable mobility and smart buildings for R&D and manufacturing with the aim of reversing the current image of the Polcevera valley, from a complex and tragically devastated place to a territory of sustainable innovation for the rejuvenation of Genoa itself.

The Red Steel Circle – a symbolic element and embodiment of the “urban sewing” of the two sides of the valley – develops changing its nature: it becomes a walkway, a raised square, an access and exit ramp, a corridor between the buildings or an underground path and connects all the different territories, highlighting the great urban botanical park: the Polcevera Park. A new regenerated site that will run under the new bridge, designed by Renzo Piano to replace the Morandi Bridge that mostly collapsed in August 2018 causing a tragic accident and several deaths.










​
“Rebuilding from an architectural and urban point of view but above all from a social point of view. For this reason, the rebirth called for a project that first and foremost would be a hymn to life. Joyful, with quality services, designed primarily for people, people who live and work there. We strongly wanted the vision to embody the colours and scents of the Mediterranean, of which Genoa is a symbol in the world. In fact, the goal is to rebuild a cohesive urban system, socially active, innovative so as to revitalize not just the area but also the neighbouring ones by turning it into an attraction. The architectural project proposed consists of the design of World Buildings that is large clusters of buildings with a multi-functional role and a streamlined yet recognisable architectural language. Inspired by industrial architecture and the blue colour of the Mediterranean, the new buildings are built with sustainable materials and the large roofs offer surfaces for the production of renewable energy. The buildings open up to the park and are intersected and connected by the Red Circle,” adds Andrea Boschetti, founding partner of Milan-based Metrogramma.

The Red Steel Circle is first and foremost a relationship-building structure: it is a bike-pedestrian road 1570 meters long, 6 meters wide and 250 meters radius, equipped with a 120-meter-high Wind Tower for the production and distribution of renewable energy that connects the district just in front of the new station. The latter houses a system of wind turbines and belongs, like the Red Circle, to the new energy network of Polcevera created thanks to the contribution of the German firm Transsolar.

The Red Circle is part of a sustainable mobility grid where bike and pedestrian paths, smart mobility lanes, shared surfaces and intelligent parking spaces all come together inside a strategy developed with MIC | Mobility in Chain, with the goal of creating a safe public space on a human scale.



















​
The Polcevera Park, basically consists of a system of parks that gather in the overall vision the variety of plants and trees typical of the Mediterranean basin, designed by Inside Outside | Petra Blaisse and built with the contribution of agronomist and landscape designer Laura Gatti and geologist Secondo Antonio Accotto.

“The landscape project presents itself as a structure of parallel stripes that organises the entire site, giving rise to a botanical park where each strip, whose width varies from 7 to 20 meters and is marked by an aligned path, represents a different type of garden, thus increasing the degree of biodiversity of the entire area. And of the experiences for the citizens through the typologies themselves and the equipment (it will be possible to use recreational, educational and socialisation areas as for playing sports, collecting flowers and fruits, using animal dedicated areas). Running perpendicular to the linear gardens there is a further zig-zag path that becomes the only connection between East and West until one reaches the Red Circle that intersects all the stripes and creates connections that were previously impossible, allowing cyclists and pedestrians to move everywhere with previously unimaginable ease. The Red Circle, together with this system of paths puts available in a very efficient way all the green spaces and areas of the Park, giving to citizens and visitors an experience of the landscape that is both beautiful and intimate […]. All green areas and the squares will be created so as to absorb rainwater, extra water will be collected and used for irrigation and such. The efficiency of this new landscape does not only have a practical function such as the sustainability of the water management, but also embodies the symbolic value of Genoa’s comeback after the Morandi Bridge tragedy“. These are the words used by Petra Blaisse and her Inside Outside Dutch studio to describe the Park.










​
In the heart of the Park stands Genova in the wood: an art installation featuring 43 trees, designed by artist Luca Vitone, dedicated to the memory of the victims of the suddenly collapsed Morandi bridge as well as to the timeless memory of the pain and faults of mankind but, at the same time, a symbol of the indomitable strength of a city.

“Each tree will be dedicated to a Ligurian figure from every period of the cultural scene from Montale to Pivano, Germi, Villaggio, Strozzi, Scanavino, Alberti all the way to Coppedé. Figures that were born in the region or that have found in the region the right environment for their growth, individuals who, with their imagination, were able to contribute and export in the world the image of Genoa and Liguria. Each name of the author will be hidden by its anagram that will give the title to the plant and it will be up to the visitor, as in any puzzle game, to discover the person to whom the tree is dedicated. Paths that can be freely explored inside the “Forest”, where benches with peculiar shapes, such as wheels or crosses make the perfect place to read and rest in the shade of the trees. Visitor’s curiosity will be satisfied by the botanical data sheets – symbolic – biographies that for each tree/author will have an explanation of the affinity, pairing and relations. This information, with the related anagram solution, will be available through an app designed on purpose for the project. Also, a library is planned dedicated to books on botany and on the authors who are protagonists of the Forest,” says the artist Luca Vitone.










​
The Parco del Polcevera will become a new centre: all around it, the district will be reborn, understood as a community of life, relationships and exchanges. The BIC buildings in the Green Factory area, the New Forts and the ex Mercato Ovaivicolo become new hubs of productivity and innovation, essential ingredients for a sustainable rebirth also from the economic-financial point of view as studied in depth by H&A Associati.

The project will be built through an open participatory process (for the month of October 2019), with the active involvement of the administration, inhabitants and other local stakeholders. Called “The Polcevera Table 2.0”, it will be a tool that will accompany all phases of the work, from the design to the construction, also using tools such as temporary structures for the start, implementation and finalization of the process, as defined in the tender by Temporiuso.

“The Red Circle, the Tower, the World Buildings, and the Polcevera Park with its vital chromatic and botanical variety will act as Genoa’s welcome to the passers-by of the future – says Stefano Boeri – A welcome to the world that crosses it and reaches Genoa from a network of infrastructure that stretches from east to west connecting Italy to Europe, parks perched on vertical walls, workers and noblewomen, singers-poets and naval engineers. A Superb City, even though it is afflicted by poignant melancholy; beautiful, even if in the harshness of its everlasting contradictions. A city of steel and sea, sculpted by wind and tragedy, but always able to stand tall“.










​
https://www.italian-architects.com/...mano-il-cerchio-rosso-sotto-il-ponte-di-piano
https://www.stefanoboeriarchitetti.net/project/parco-del-ponte-di-genova/


----------



## italystf

I don't see any problem with videos, as long they're relevant with the thread (and those are).
If you aren't interested in them, just don't watch them.
But other people may be interested.


----------



## MichiH

davide84 said:


> As an example, here in the "Aviation" section there are *two subsections*, one for photos and one for discussions...


Seconded!


----------



## sponge_bob

Make sure youtube autoplay is disabled in your browser (especially bloody chrome  ) and they are not a major hassle any more. 

https://9to5google.com/2018/02/15/how-to-disable-autoplay-videos-chrome/

or use firefox or opera.  Tons of large unresized photos are a bigger problem than vids.


----------



## brick84

video about secondary roads in *province of Ragusa*, southeast Sicily. From "Donnafugata Castle" to "Santa Croce Camerina".




Sicilian Driver said:


> Strade provinciali 71 - 13 - 20 Tra Donnafugata e Santa Croce , documentario sullo stato delle citate provinciali da me prodotto :


----------



## g.spinoza

A22 interrupted between Vipiteno and Bressanone due to electric cables cut by the weather and fallen onto the carriageway.

https://www.ildolomiti.it/cronaca/2...per-dei-cavi-elettrici-tranciati-dal-maltempo


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An enormous amount of rain and snow is forecasted for northeastern Italy over the next 24 hours:









Source: Severe Weather Europe

This area has large riverbeds to cope with excessive precipitation:


----------



## g.spinoza

This is what's happening in Val Martello/Martelltal in South Tyrol:


----------



## g.spinoza

News from the investigation about viaduct Morandi collapse in Genoa.

The bridge stability was monitored by some sensors, whose output was used to write down its status. Well, it seems that those sensors were non-operative since 2015, and never replaced.

https://genova.repubblica.it/cronac...86377/?ref=RHPPLF-BH-I241587306-C8-P4-S1.8-T1


----------



## italystf

A viaduct on the northbound carriaggeway of A6, between Savona and Altare, has just collapsed due to heavy rains.
Fortunately no one was driving there while it happened.









https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/20...-a6-nel-savonese-in-direzione-torino/5578031/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An aerial view:



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198604767905361921


----------



## g.spinoza

Another motorway collapse not so far from there.

A 10-m-wide hole opened on A21 between Asti and Villanova, direction Turin:










https://torino.repubblica.it/cronac...861/?ref=RHPPTP-BH-I241691504-C12-P1-S1.12-T1

The motorway is currently closed in both directions.


----------



## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> Another motorway collapse not so far from there.
> 
> A 10-m-wide hole opened on A21 between Asti and Villanova, direction Turin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://torino.repubblica.it/cronac...861/?ref=RHPPTP-BH-I241691504-C12-P1-S1.12-T1
> 
> The motorway is currently closed in both directions.


I just drove there but found nothing: no hole, no counterflow, no hints of anything.
I'm a bit puzzled.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Apparently they managed to fill the hole, redo the pavement and reopen the motorway by 8 AM. Talking about efficiency...


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## italystf

^^ On the other hand, we'll be lucky if the damage on A6 will be fixed in 2 years. It's not an easy-to-repair kind of damage.


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## ChrisZwolle

Spain had a slide on A-23 in 2018, they built this bridge in 2 months:


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ The bridge collapsed in A14 Bologna for the explosion last year was rebuilt in 55 days.


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## Suburbanist

The key issue there is whether the slope itself is stable .


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## brick84

*SS 115 Siracusa-Trapani*

_here from Ragusa to Modica_





Sicilian Driver said:


> *Scorrimento veloce Ragusa-Modica (SS115)*
> Video girato da me riguardante la SS115 nel suo tracciato in variante risalente agli anni 70' tra Ragusa e Modica , il video mostra l'intera estensione della strada nonchè le opere principali (ponti Costanzo e Guerrieri) spero che il video possa essere di vostro gradimento.


----------



## g.spinoza

6.8 km of third lane on A4 between Palmanova (junction with A23) and San Giorgio di Nogaro will open for traffic tomorrow 1st December.

Also tomorrow the second Tagliamento bridge (1.5 km) will open, for now with 2 lanes. This is twin to the first bridge which was opened on 9 December last year. During next week works will be ongoing to open the third lane also in this stretch, between Alvisopoli and river Stella (12 km).

https://messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it...palmanova-e-san-giorgio-1.38030049?refresh_ce


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## italystf

^^
Section river Stella (between Latisana and San Giorgio di Nogaro) - San Giorgio di Nogaro will open in spring 2020.
Section Portogruaro (i/c with A28) - Alvisopoli will open in 2021.
Sections San Donà di Piave - Portogruaro (i/c with A28) and Palmanova (i/c with A23) - Villesse (i/c with A34) will start in future, although there's no timetable yet and there are some financing problems.

There are also some plans to enlarge the Monfalcone-Lisert toll booth and to build a new exit at Alvisopoli (between Portogruaro and Latisana), to serve Bibione.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

MichiH said:


> Italian authorities failed three times in Genoa region in the past months.


Infact my very personal opinion is that there is something very bad with Liguria region infrastructures maintenance.
I'm not saying that everywhere else in Italy is going perfectly, but there is clearly something not working in Liguria.


----------



## intersezioni

italystf said:


> Trenitalia is good only for modern high-speed trains like Frecciarossa, Frecciabianca, and Frecciargento, although they're expensive as hell.
> For other trains it isn't very good. Most trains are quite old and often late.


from today until 2023 more than 80% of regional trains will be renewed on the whole national territory. (ROCK and POP trains)
from 2023 Italy will have the most modern fleet of fast and regional trains in europa.
you just have to wait.
Yesterday another 5 new POP trains were delivered to the Sicily region.


----------



## stickedy

I visited Genova last summer and I have to say that I never saw such a decayed city and infrastructure in my life before - and I was travelling through nearly entire east Europe after fall of Iron curtain and saw a lot of run-down cities and areas.

To be honest, after seeing Genova, I have to admit that it is not surprising anymore that Morandi bridge collapsed.

Sorry for that, but it's just my impression of that city and in general I really love Italy!


----------



## Vignole

^^
Have you ever been to Naples?


----------



## verreme

^^ Or Rome, or Turin...


----------



## italystf

intersezioni said:


> from today until 2023 more than 80% of regional trains will be renewed on the whole national territory. (ROCK and POP trains)
> from 2023 Italy will have the most modern fleet of fast and regional trains in europa.
> you just have to wait.
> Yesterday another 5 new POP trains were delivered to the Sicily region.


Let's wait and see.
Now the situation isn't the best possible, too many old trains and delays. In 2023 we'll see and judge.


----------



## Uppsala

g.spinoza said:


> I think these are the most recent:



I am very impressed that they in Genoa have been able to get as far as they have done in the picture. This is incredibly well done in such a short time since the old bridge collapsed.

But do they claim that this would be completely ready for traffic in May? Isn't this still a little over-optimistic to believe it? If this is done in November or December this is then they have still done an incredibly good job yet which has gone very quickly. But May? Doesn't it feel like just a fantasy and wish dream?


----------



## g.spinoza

Uppsala said:


> I am very impressed that they in Genoa have been able to get as far as they have done in the picture. This is incredibly well done in such a short time since the old bridge collapsed.
> 
> But do they claim that this would be completely ready for traffic in May? Isn't this still a little over-optimistic to believe it? If this is done in November or December this is then they have still done an incredibly good job yet which has gone very quickly. But May? Doesn't it feel like just a fantasy and wish dream?


They say they have been speeding up construction by optimizing some works: for instance, many pieces have been assembled on the ground then lifted into position, rather than do lift first and then assemble, which apparently is standard procedure but is slower to do at a height. But I'm no engineer so I'm not sure.


----------



## italystf

^^ Yes, we can't judge the level of advencement of a project without considering the amount of work that has been done off-site.


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## ChrisZwolle

Prefabricated elements are normally of the highest quality, because they weren't fabricated outdoors while exposed to weather influences.


----------



## Mateusz864

What about the durability of the steel elements? Are they expensive to maintain? Btw will there be a constant maintenance or they will just wait until the bridge collapses again? :troll:


----------



## belerophon

The older of us wont find out


----------



## devo

Remember that there are oil rigs in the north sea that withstand quite severe environmental impact compared to what this bridge will ever experience. Yes it is located in a somewhat hot and humid (near-ocean, ie. salt) environment but having the segments fabricated indoors as Chris pointed out will help a lot.
Compared to a welded suspension bridge comprising of the same kind of steel elements I would say this should be quite straight-forward to maintain, but then again, there is no such thing as maintenance free.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

stickedy said:


> I visited Genova last summer and I have to say that I never saw such a decayed city and infrastructure in my life before - and I was travelling through nearly entire east Europe after fall of Iron curtain and saw a lot of run-down cities and areas.
> 
> To be honest, after seeing Genova, I have to admit that it is not surprising anymore that Morandi bridge collapsed.
> 
> Sorry for that, but it's just my impression of that city and in general I really love Italy!


I as Italian ever had the same impression


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

ChrisZwolle said:


> Prefabricated elements are normally of the highest quality, because they weren't fabricated outdoors while exposed to weather influences.


True.
And elements have no 'imperfections'

Unfortunately in Italy prefabricated elements are not often used in construction works (even if something is changing nowadays)
Yep they're more expensive but this choice made many structures look cheap and awful IMO


----------



## italystf

GENIUS LOCI said:


> True.
> And elements have no 'imperfections'
> 
> Unfortunately in Italy prefabricated elements are not often used in construction works (even if something is changing nowadays)
> Yep they're more expensive but this choice made many structures look cheap and awful IMO


They were used for example on the new bridge of A4 over Tagliamento river.


----------



## italystf

The Cerrano viaduct on A14 between Pescara Nord and Pineto, in Central Italy, has been closed to vehicles above 3.5 tons in both directions, because of a structural problem: due to a landslide, the land beneath pillars has moved of about 7 cm.
https://www.ilmessaggero.it/italia/...ip_pile_spostate_di_7_centimetri-4980622.html


----------



## italystf

Some rubble has fallen from the roof of a road tunnel on the SPBS294 road in Lombardy. A car was damaged but nobody was killed nor injured.
https://www.ilmessaggero.it/italia/...mo_incidente_oggi_ultime_notizie-4976632.html


----------



## Kolerus

intersezioni said:


> Anas must be reformed and restructured after which it can very well manage the highways even if it is state owned.
> I remind you that Trenitalia was in the same situation as anas, but political will has changed it for the better, now it is a multinational railway company taken as a reference all over the world https://www.spiegel.de/plus/warum-i...er-ist-a-c7eb9813-3b89-4dd4-aad7-b96186b48497
> I remind you that by 2025 almost all trains will be replaced regional, with new electric trains, and on high speed is unrivaled in europe.
> the same can happen with pineapple, since it has only recently been a company managed by TRENITALIA.
> Being a Trenitalia company it must now produce results, but let's give it time, not much time has passed since the change of management!


ANAS is owned by Grupo Ferrovio dello stato italiane whom also own Trenitalia...


----------



## intersezioni

stickedy said:


> I visited Genova last summer and I have to say that I never saw such a decayed city and infrastructure in my life before - and I was travelling through nearly entire east Europe after fall of Iron curtain and saw a lot of run-down cities and areas.
> 
> To be honest, after seeing Genova, I have to admit that it is not surprising anymore that Morandi bridge collapsed.
> 
> Sorry for that, but it's just my impression of that city and in general I really love Italy!


exaggerated! I don't even answer you.


----------



## Wilhem275

Then don't...


----------



## da_scotty

Every port town is grubby, it's part of the industry it seems. Same with old industry towns.

I found it more as messy in the urbanism way, lot's of mixed area's with part empty lots/then some industry/then some offices/then a abandoned build yard. It's makes it look messy, but it's not terrible. It's just a bit grubby,

It isn't a attack on Italy though, it's a observation I could make in a lot of european towns.


----------



## Wilhem275

Ports usually have that sense of abandonment, they're large no man lands mostly.
It's also a former industrial town, hence the run down appearance and empty lots in some areas. It went through a severe depression up until recent years.

Also, it had an immensely rich high society in the past, so you will see a grand style of architecture in the city center and a great deal of detailing and decorations on most pre-war buildings. Plus, one of the widest medieval city center in Europe (and definitely the densest).
This gives the city some serious touristic potential, which has still to be exploited simply because up to 30 years ago the place was completely devoted to industry and nobody cared about its looks.

In Genova it's all very intertwined because space constraints obliged to adopt a very dense and vertical urban texture. For urban explorers and urban history geeks it's a great playground.
This also makes it very difficult for the random tourist to actually appreciate it, nice things are so packed, and hidden by run down old stuff, that you'll really need an expert to catch them.
It can give a lot, but only to the kind of tourist that's willing to see past a layer of decay (although there's way more care about that, now).

In terms of infrastructure, the mess is that the city is immensely complicated to maintain due to its shape and density and age.
Many roads were built while industry money was flowing in, and the paradox is that they're still needed now in terms of capacity (because the city is alive) but money went missing, while maintenance there is very expensive.


----------



## Suburbanist

Rotterdam is the best European example of how you can have a very large port that doesn't look run-down, seedy, derelict etc. Even in older port areas still in use as such, with railways and roads around etc.

At least Genova has an engineering masterpiece a.k.a. Sopraelevata. Imagine the traffic chaos without that structure.


----------



## Verso

^^ Yes, but it also makes the city uglier (not the _sopraelevata_ per se, but areas around it look run-down).


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Just imagine these areas without the sopraelevata:

https://www.google.es/maps/@44.4095...4!1s1Sq0NqvOqTZaFt-bMtE8yw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.es/maps/@44.4153...81.133705&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.es/maps/@44.4127...325.34503&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## Verso

A better example is the elevated bypass of Trieste, which doesn't ruin the cityscape since it doesn't run through the center.


----------



## legolego

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ Just imagine these areas without the sopraelevata:
> 
> https://www.google.es/maps/@44.4095...4!1s1Sq0NqvOqTZaFt-bMtE8yw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> https://www.google.es/maps/@44.4153...81.133705&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> https://www.google.es/maps/@44.4127...325.34503&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


Some ideas about it: 

*Pedestrian *use of "Sopraelevata":


























http://www.spazioestile.it/concorso-idee-sopraelevata-2013/


*Demolition *of "Sopraelevata":


----------



## g.spinoza

The pedestrian use would be quite ridiculous, AFAIK.


----------



## MacOlej

Yeah, looks like someone wanted to unnecessarily copy New York's High Line.


----------



## g.spinoza

MacOlej said:


> Yeah, looks like someone wanted to unnecessarily copy New York's High Line.


Which isn't so nice in the first place, IMHO.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> The pedestrian use would be quite ridiculous, AFAIK.


It's probably underestimated how much the maintenance of a colossal bridge structure that old would cost. Even if there is no traffic on it, the bridge must be able to sustain its own weight, so there would still be significant maintenance costs, much more than could be justified for such a function.


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's probably underestimated how much the maintenance of a colossal bridge structure that old would cost. Even if there is no traffic on it, the bridge must be able to sustain its own weight, so there would still be significant maintenance costs, much more than could be justified for such a function.


In that case, it would be probably better and much cheaper to remove the decks and replace them with light-weight ones that have little impact on pylons.


----------



## italystf

Official website of Friuli Venezia Giulia regional administration (supposed to be updated):
a) A28 Portogruaro - Sacile, planned to be extended to Conegliano
b) RA17 Villesse - Gorizia
a) was completed in 2010, b) was renumbered A34 in 2013 after upgrading
https://www.regione.fvg.it/rafvg/cm...i/infrastrutture-logistica-trasporti/FOGLIA1/
:lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ nobody ever updates those pages, they make an intern do the work, then forget about it.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

italystf said:


> Official website of Friuli Venezia Giulia regional administration (supposed to be updated):
> a) A28 Portogruaro - Sacile, planned to be extended to Conegliano
> b) RA17 Villesse - Gorizia
> a) was completed in 2010, b) was renumbered A34 in 2013 after upgrading
> https://www.regione.fvg.it/rafvg/cm...i/infrastrutture-logistica-trasporti/FOGLIA1/
> :lol:


From that site: "last update: April 9th, 2019" (!)
Maybe 2009...


----------



## g.spinoza

A project has been presented to build a "variante" to the ex-SS 258 Marecchiese, in province of Rimini.

It basically will be new road 36.690 km long: the first 8.176 km, between Ponte Messa and Novafeltria, will be a single-carriageway superstrada; 28.322 km (from Novafeltria to the future Rimini Fiera A14 junction) will be a dual-carriageway superstrada.

I can't find any maps, though. 

https://www.altarimini.it/News13082...-una-galleria-ecco-come-sara-il-tracciato.php


----------



## italystf

^^ It should be more or less parallel to this route.

I wonder what's the point of building an expressway there. It won't connect any important settlement and the terrain is quite mountanious.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> ^^ It should be more or less parallel to this route.
> 
> I wonder what's the point of building an expressway there. It won't connect any important settlement and the terrain is quite mountanious.


Until recently that territory was part of Region Marche, and they battled fiercely to be detached from it and be a part of Region Emilia-Romagna. Now that they succeeded (they are the first and, up to now, almost only communes to have done that - only other to succed was Sappada from Veneto to Friuli-Venezia Giulia) they demand better connection to Rimini, the province seat.

Besides, in perspective such a road could connect also to E78, which, especially after the opening of Guinza tunnel, would be a fast connection between Adriatic and Thyrrenian sea.


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## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Until recently that territory was part of Region Marche, and they battled fiercely to be detached from it and be a part of Region Emilia-Romagna. Now that they succeeded (they are the first and, up to now, almost only communes to have done that - only other to succed was Sappada from Veneto to Friuli-Venezia Giulia) they demand better connection to Rimini, the province seat.
> 
> Besides, in perspective such a road could connect also to E78, which, especially after the opening of Guinza tunnel, would be a fast connection between Adriatic and Thyrrenian sea.


Or maybe they could extend it westward towards E45.


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## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> Viaduct Madonna del Monte on A6, which was destroyed in a landslide on past 24 November, is going to reopen next 21 February:
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How un-German! :colgate:


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## mgk920

A temporary bridge built using one or more retired railroad flatcars?

Mike


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## keber

^^ Of course not. Maybe steel is not really new but such bridge can be constructed very quickly (as you can see here - or with new Morando bridge in Genova) as it is not really complicated structure - just few steel I profiles cross connected and with a upper steel plate which numerous dowels to hold reinforced concrete plate over that (not yet on picture). 

Italians have good and effective steel bridge industry.


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## g.spinoza

Steel only SEEMS old. It is called Corten, and it is made this way to prevent its rusting. Believe me, it's brand new.


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## pccvspw999

mgk920 said:


> A temporary bridge built using one or more retired railroad flatcars?
> 
> Mike


And even if? It is also a girder suspended between two abutments (the bogies), supposed to take a load. If it’s suitable for both purposes, why not using it from old flatcars to build bridges? Would have been a great exaple of “circular economy”:cheers:
Of course it’s not.


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## intersezioni

Penn's Woods said:


> How un-German! :colgate:


this is an urban legend about the speed of the Germans, maybe it was worth a few decades ago!
Even in germany the construction sites last for years, the test and the new berlin airport


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## g.spinoza

intersezioni said:


> this is an urban legend about the speed of the Germans, maybe it was worth a few decades ago!
> Even in germany the construction sites last for years, the test and the new berlin airport


I think that's exactly Penn's point.


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## Penn's Woods

^^Indeed.



intersezioni said:


> this is an urban legend about the speed of the Germans, maybe it was worth a few decades ago!
> 
> Even in germany the construction sites last for years, the test and the new berlin airport



Just before this post I’d read something about an interchange in Germany taking 11 years or something equally ridiculous.


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## Suburbanist

The Italian government has canceled the new A12 project between Grosseto and Tarquinia. A half-baked job of in-situ improvement of the existing superstrada will be all that is left. It will also not be tolled.



> Il completamento dell’A12, ovvero l’autostrada per Grosseto e Livorno del quale era stato realizzato recentemente il tratto tra Civitavecchia e Tarquinia, non si farà più. E’ quanto scritto nel Decreto Milleproroghe, approvato giovedì scorso dal Governo, che ha deciso praticamente di sospendere l’efficacia della concessione alla SAT scegliendo la soluzione della superstrada attraverso l’ampliamento dell’attuale e a volte tortuoso e pericoloso tracciato della statale Aurelia


source: https://trcgiornale.it/addio-allautostrada-per-grosseto-e-livorno/

There are several factors that eventually botched the project. I think local politicians overplayed their hand, by demanding free toll for local traffic (with a very generous understanding of 'local'), more anre more unreasonable noise abatement/relocation, more and more ancillary stuff to be put on the charge of the concessionaire... without having to pay for it later.

So now the Grosseto-Tarquinia sector is back to where it was 10 years ago - only a widening of the existing superstrada will happen. Even where the existing road is already 2x2, it is still very cramped, with many substandard access roads at high angles and very short ramps. There will still be considerable expropriation of lands and properties, towns will not be relieved of heavy traffic.

I still think a bypass of Orbetello will come around, anyway. It is too difficult to build there (example G-Maps).


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## g.spinoza

^^ They changed their minds several times on this. I think they will change their minds again in the future.


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## italystf

A full-standards 110 km/h superstrada (expressway) between Tarquinia and Grosseto would be probably enough.


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## g.spinoza

I think long-distance roads should be autostrada, with superstrada as shorter spurs or in difficult terrain, and managed in the same way: either both under concession and tolled, or both State-managed and free.


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## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> A full-standards 110 km/h superstrada (expressway) between Tarquinia and Grosseto would be probably enough.


Maybe, if it were built on a new alignment. Building on the old Aurelia alignment is a bad idea: tight curves, uncomfortably close buildings etc.


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## italystf

^^ I think that frontage roads for local traffic will be required too. There are many properties that currently have direct access from SS1.


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## intersezioni

Genoa, new bridge from the drone:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/buFyb...hide=0&iv_load_policy=0&iframe=1&wmode=opaque


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## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> Viaduct Madonna del Monte on A6, which was destroyed in a landslide on past 24 November, is going to reopen next 21 February:
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Inauguration has been today, 11 AM, actual re-opening tomorrow at 6 AM.

https://www.ivg.it/2020/02/il-nuovo...gran-giorno-opera-realizzata-in-tempi-rapidi/


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## g.spinoza

Aerial view of SPV "Pedemontana Veneta" in construction:






Thanks to @bortttt for the link


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## brick84

*Highway A18 Siracusa-Gela*

_works for new lots "Rosolini-Ispica-Pozzallo" _


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## Sicilian Driver

Driving Catania western bypass in Sicily (north direction)


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## brick84

*SS 96 "Barese", Apulia *

ANAS opened to traffic 5 km in Bari-Matera direction



https://www.stradeanas.it/sites/default/files/SS 96 def.jpg


https://www.stradeanas.it/sites/default/files/SS 96_DEF.jpg


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## g.spinoza

Uppsala said:


> This is not good at all! It is, after all, the most important motorway in Sicily. How long do you think the bridge must be closed? Arranging this kind of problem seems complicated.


The article doesn't say. 
However, it seems that the viaduct was closed by the judge following a user report from *December 2018*. Apparently the concessionaire (CAS) didn't do anything so the judge acted.



> Unfortunately, I'm just becoming more and more convinced that they have problems with bridges in Italy. Many bridges were built for the motorways during the 1960s and 1970s, but there has been poor maintenance on them and they are collapsing.
> I hope that the Morandibridge showed the seriousness of this problem so much so that in Italy they are currently checking all the bridges that exist.


Politicians are guilty of that. During the years, concessionaires have obtained very favorable contracts by the State: basically they are obliged to do maintenance, but nobody checks (or better, they check on themselves), and there are no penalties if they don't do that. Even after Morandi, which is in my view _culpa gravis _(a grave fault), the concessionaire couldn't be kicked out, and it rebuilt (and got paid for that) the new bridge.


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## ChrisZwolle

Here's an article: "Rischiava di crollare", sequestrato il viadotto "Buzza", sulla A20 Me-Pa - AMnotizie.it
_
Even a slight earthquake or simple changes in temperature, according to the technicians, could cause the immediate collapse of the entire Buzza viaduct, on the A20 motorway, towards Messina-Palermo, in the Caronia area._


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## keber

Picture shows very serious and dangerous state. Also it looks like it was built at much later date, not in seventies.


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## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Picture shows very serious and dangerous state. Also it looks like it was built at much later date, not in seventies.


That stretch is the very last built on A20, opened in 2005.


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## keber

That is really worrying, just 15 years old.
















Viadotto Buzza A20 Messina-Catania sequestrato per rischio crollo, 6 indagati. Nel 2018 la segnalazione di un automobilista


Sequestrato perché giudicato a rischio crollo il viadotto Buzza dell'autostrada A20 Messina-Catania (carreggiata con direzione Messina-Palermo, compresa tra il km 119+620 e il km 120+840),...




www.ilmessaggero.it


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## pccvspw999

What is more depressing and unforgivable is that this state was seen in an inspection in Dec.2018. It took 16 month (!!!) to acknowledge the "clear and present danger" and close the bridge.
It's crazy!


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## ChrisZwolle

You wonder what caused this situation. Maybe the expansion of the bridge under temperature variations? I know that northern Sicily had unusually hot weather due to the Föhn effect recently. I'm not sure how recent these pictures are. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260861179049717761


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> You wonder what caused this situation. Maybe the expansion of the bridge under temperature variations? I know that northern Sicily had unusually hot weather due to the Föhn effect recently. I'm not sure how recent these pictures are.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260861179049717761


I don't think it is related to current temperatures.
Bridge has been like this for at least 2 years.


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## Alien x

g.spinoza said:


> I don't think it is related to current temperatures.
> Bridge has been like this for at least 2 years.


Was this the stretch that had the problem with work on tunnels?


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## g.spinoza

Alien x said:


> Was this the stretch that had the problem with work on tunnels?


Mmm don't know. Can you be more specific?


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## Alien x

g.spinoza said:


> Mmm don't know. Can you be more specific?


There where several tunnels that where closed in Sicily not long after opening with structural problems. Right I can look for information because I am on my mobile phone.


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## g.spinoza

Alien x said:


> There where several tunnels that where closed in Sicily not long after opening with structural problems. Right I can look for information because I am on my mobile phone.


I'm not sure... there was a tunnel, closed and reopened several times, but not on the motorway: it was in Messina, on the motorway ramp. I don't know if there are others.


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## legolego

ChrisZwolle said:


> You wonder what caused this situation. Maybe the expansion of the bridge under temperature variations? I know that northern Sicily had unusually hot weather due to the Föhn effect recently. I'm not sure how recent these pictures are.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260861179049717761





g.spinoza said:


> I don't think it is related to current temperatures.
> Bridge has been like this for at least 2 years.





Alien x said:


> Was this the stretch that had the problem with work on tunnels?


The problem is related to a misalignment at the pillars' basement, observed after an inspection by fire department engineers


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## mistikos

Hi all! This is a little video made by me in Calabria, soon there will be others:


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## brick84

Uppsala said:


> This is not good at all! It is, after all, the most important motorway in Sicily.


According with traffic statistics, A20 is not the most important, A18 Messina-Catania it is. 




Alien x said:


> There where several tunnels that where closed in Sicily not long after opening with structural problems. Right I can look for information because I am on my mobile phone.


Maybe someone along A18 ME-CT that was closed (and re-opened) for maintenance.


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## mistikos

A2 motorway from Cosenza to Altilia:


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## ChrisZwolle

Viadotto Montoro of E45 between Terni and Orte has closed due to a risk of collapse. It looks like this one has also almost shifted off the pylon.


















Viadotto Montoro, per la Lega serve il modello Genova


Viadotto Montoro, per la Lega serve il modello Genova “Far partire immediatamente i lavori sul viadotto Montoro del raccordo Terni-Orte, avvalendosi del modello Genova e <a class="mh-excerpt-more"...




www.umbriajournal.com






















Raccordo Terni-Orte, viadotto Montoro chiuso: grave pericolo per il pilone danneggiato


Chiuso il viadotto Montoro del raccordo Terni-Orte (Leggi), lo stato di grave pericolo del pilone danneggiato scoperto grazie all'immagine di un drone...




corrieredellumbria.corr.it


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## Uppsala

ChrisZwolle said:


> Viadotto Montoro of E45 between Terni and Orte has closed due to a risk of collapse. It looks like this one has also almost shifted off the pylon.
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> Viadotto Montoro, per la Lega serve il modello Genova “Far partire immediatamente i lavori sul viadotto Montoro del raccordo Terni-Orte, avvalendosi del modello Genova e <a class="mh-excerpt-more"...
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> corrieredellumbria.corr.it



This really is not good! It's really really bad!

I'm starting to get really worried about the condition of the motorway bridges in Italy. The Morandi bridge seems to be just the top of an iceberg.

This bridge looks extremely bad. The bridge sections are slipping off the bridge posts. At least one pillar seems to be crooked in addition.

Can this bridge be saved at all? Or is it already in too bad a condition to make it possible?

And how many more bridges are there today in Italy where there is also a disaster waiting? Are there more motorway bridges that are so bad in Italy?

As I said, I'm starting to get worried about how things are in Italy today.


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## ChrisZwolle

Many of these bridges look visually much worse than those that Germany is replacing. There are plenty of bridges with large-scale concrete damages, with corroded rebar visible. Don't they inspect these bridges? I've read that this deficiency was detected by a drone user, a while ago there was a bridge that was found in dangerous condition because someone picked mushrooms in the area.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Don't they inspect these bridges?


No they don't. It's always the same whining "we have no money"...


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## Uppsala

g.spinoza said:


> No they don't. It's always the same whining "we have no money"...



But it costs a lot less money to inspect the bridges and repair them when they are broken. Than they collapse and you have to build brand new as a replacement. In addition, human lives are saved if the bridges are inspected against when they collapse.

This should be obvious, right?


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## g.spinoza

Uppsala said:


> But it costs a lot less money to inspect the bridges and repair them when they are broken. Than they collapse and you have to build brand new as a replacement. In addition, human lives are saved if the bridges are inspected against when they collapse.
> 
> This should be obvious, right?


It should.
As I mentioned some other time in the forum, one of Italy's largest problems is maintenance. After something is built, then who cares.


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## brick84

*"Polcevera" viaduct, Genoa*

update





Melandri.R. said:


> Ci siamo quasi 💦💦💦
> View attachment 179486
> 
> Vasche di laminazione
> View attachment 179618


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## legolego

Uppsala said:


> This really is not good! It's really really bad!
> 
> I'm starting to get really worried about the condition of the motorway bridges in Italy. The Morandi bridge seems to be just the top of an iceberg.
> 
> This bridge looks extremely bad. The bridge sections are slipping off the bridge posts. At least one pillar seems to be crooked in addition.
> 
> Can this bridge be saved at all? Or is it already in too bad a condition to make it possible?
> 
> And how many more bridges are there today in Italy where there is also a disaster waiting? Are there more motorway bridges that are so bad in Italy?
> 
> As I said, I'm starting to get worried about how things are in Italy today.





ChrisZwolle said:


> Many of these bridges look visually much worse than those that Germany is replacing. There are plenty of bridges with large-scale concrete damages, with corroded rebar visible. Don't they inspect these bridges? I've read that this deficiency was detected by a drone user, a while ago there was a bridge that was found in dangerous condition because someone picked mushrooms in the area.





g.spinoza said:


> No they don't. It's always the same whining "we have no money"...


in the last few months, there have been many tenders regarding maintenance or sourveying of ANAS bridges, tunnel...

The last in order of time : ANAS allocate €16 Mllions to inspection of its Viaducts, bridges, tunnels

"Obiouvsly" this kins of activities began after Ponte Morandi collapse (in Italy is common way to do the right things only "after...")


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## mistikos

*A2 Motorway, from Altilia to Falerna:*


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## pccvspw999

Uppsala said:


> But it costs a lot less money to inspect the bridges and repair them when they are broken. Than they collapse and you have to build brand new as a replacement. In addition, human lives are saved if the bridges are inspected against when they collapse.
> 
> This should be obvious, right?


There is another concern: you may maintain everything promptly, but structures made of concrete alter steadily and after a certain time they have to be rebuilt anyway. The majority of italian structures, and also germans, are getting to their expected "end of life". Even the Morandi bridge was expected to be demolished within 10-15 years maximum.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes, that's why the Italian government should prepare for a hugely expensive bridge replacement programme.

Germany also has an enormous mission to replace bridge built before ~1975. I think Italy's bridge replacement need is even larger due to the mountainous terrain and large amount of bridges built in the 1960s and 70s.

Some of these bridges look really worrisome, for those it may not be a matter of replacing it somewhere in the next 20 years, but in the near future. Germany has also found out how close they came to end-of-life before a bridge is replaced and many Italian bridges are visually in a much more dire condition.


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## legolego

It could be a good opportunity to change (in same case) italian's construction philosophy : steel instead of concrete


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## mistikos

SS18 Tirrena Inferiore - From Falerna Marina to Amantea:


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## Autobahn-mann

*SPV updates:*
According to local newspaper and newsreel (italian thread: VENETO | Pedemontana)

Malo – Thiene (A31) ~7km (April 2014 to April 2020 --> mid-June 2020 [from June 16 to 21])

Due to Covid emergency, the works stopped for 15 days, and for other 15 day had proceeded with half personnel; so it’s estimate a delay of one to three months:
Montecchio/Arzignano – Castelgomberto 9.8km (April 2014 to summer 2020 --> delayed maybe to September, not confirmed)
Breganze-West – Marostica 9km (April 2014 to September 2020 --> late 2020)
Marostica – Bassano-East (SS47) 8.5km (February 2013 to September 2020 --> late 2020)
Mussolente/Loria – Riese 3.5km (October 2014 to September 2020 --> late 2020) [completed November 2019; to be opened with neighboring section]
Riese – Montebelluna-East 20.2km (October 2014 to September 2020 --> late 2020)
Montecchio Maggiore (A4) – Montecchio Maggiore (SR11) 1.0 km (April 2014 to 2020/22 --> 2023)

2021 openings confirmed in the same period.


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## mistikos

*SS18 Tirrena Inferiore - From Amantea to A2:*


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## g.spinoza

The dig of one of the longest tunnels on Italian motorways, Tunnel Santa Lucia on A1 southbound just north of Florence, has been completed:



supernikko said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/1630455743855326/posts/2762032674030955


The tunnel is 7.5 km long and it will have the unusual feature of being on the "wrong side" of the motorway, i.e. to the left of the other carriageway instead of to the right.


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## keber

WIth almost 16 m diameter this almost fits 3 traffic lanes and a bit narrow shoulder (depending on concrete inner lining width). What will they do with the existing motorway? Will they at least merge them into full 3+1 motorway or will they do the same mistake as with the northern part over Apennines where there are 2x2 lanes in one direction?


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## g.spinoza

keber said:


> WIth almost 16 m diameter this almost fits 3 traffic lanes and a bit narrow shoulder (depending on concrete inner lining width). What will they do with the existing motorway? Will they at least merge them into full 3+1 motorway or will they do the same mistake as with the northern part over Apennines where there are 2x2 lanes in one direction?


No, it will remain 2+2 as in the northern section. I, too, think this is a mistake.


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## pccvspw999

AFAIK, the new tunnel will be used only by the southbound traffic with 3+1 lanes when the old alignment will fit 3+1 lanes northbound, or even 4+1.


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## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> AFAIK, the new tunnel will be used only by the southbound traffic with 3+1 lanes when the old alignment will fit 3+1 lanes northbound, or even 4+1.


No, the new tunnel will have no emergency lane: it will feature 3 3.75 m lanes and two small spaces, 70 cm each, on both sides.

The northbound lane will not be unified, as it was not done on the VAV, so it will be 2x(2+1).





__





Pavimental - Galleria Santa Lucia






www.pavimental.it


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## keber

So no emergency lane which is a bit of departure from new tunnel practices in Italy, but it's ok, it is a long tunnel. What about old bridges and viaducts, don't they need renovations? Is there any renovation planned?
I'm also surprised by such expensive tunnel, for that price you could probably have two 3 lanes tubes of almost identical length if if would be built with NATM. This tunnel building method is not used in Italy, however.
I'm also surprised that they don't use innovative method of tunnel enlargement as it was used in tunnel Nazzano on A1 before Roma about 13 years ago, at least for shorter tunnels south of Firenze.
















Gestione delle interferenze tra traffico autostradale e cantiere - Strade & Autostrade Online


Negli ultimi anni le necessità di potenziamento delle principali direttrici autostradali in Italia ha offerto agli operatori del tunnelling sfide tecniche ed esecutive spesso superate attraverso approcci innovativi collegati ai più elevati attuali standard di progettazione e di esecuzione delle...




www.stradeeautostrade.it


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## g.spinoza

^^ NATM needs to have consolidated rock AFAIK. In the Apennines this is rarely the case.


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## keber

NATM works very well in most types of rock, also in soft soil and fault zones - from my limited geological knowledge Apennines are not that much different from Alps or Dinarides where NATM is almost a norm. I remember when I worked together with Italian engineers on a common tunnel project - their prices were few times higher than ours because they used full face excavation method that is commonly used in Italy in almost all tunnels. When we asked why they don't use NATM which is used their answer was just "full face excavation is normally used in Italy".


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## g.spinoza

Next 18 June, 6 km of Superstrada Pedemontana Veneta (SPV), between Malo and the junction with A31, are going to be opened to traffic.



bortttt said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/109770050644828/posts/149079866713846
> 
> 
> Ad un anno di distanza circa 18 giugno alle 12.00 apre il nuovo tratto A31-Malo
> View attachment 201349


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## Corvinus

Uppsala said:


> The bus driver is Hungarian. Does anyone know if he gets a prison in Italy or Hungary?


Article says he did not attend any of the Verona court proceedings in person, but his two lawyers have appealed the verdict. However, that has no suspensory effect, thus he is expected to be taken in custody in Hungary.


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## SevenSlavicTribes

italystf said:


> Apparently, 23 April (St. George day) is a historical celebration in Genoa.
> I wonder if the current right-wing and pro-Salvini Genoa municipal administration deliberately wants to stress the attention on 23 April, to conceal the celebrations of 25 April (liberation from Nazi-fascists in 1945, celebrated all over Italy).
> When they planned to open the bridge by 25 April 2020 the mayor of Genoa wanted to make it an official celebration, to hide the historical meaning of 25 April in Italy.


"liberation"

*The first motorway in the world was constructed in ... Fascist Italy.*

Today it is difficult to imagine a world without motorways. And perhaps, it was hard to imagine one with “fast roads” that would make travelling easier. The Milanese Piero Puricelli, born in 1883, is one of the “visionaries” who saw in the construction of these new roads a lever for the growth of Italy. His test field will be the “Milano-Laghi” motorway. In order to realise his idea, in 1921 he founded the Società Anonima Autostrade. The first project was the Autostrada dei Laghi that linked Milan, Varese and Como. This is the first street in the world designed for fast traffic and for automobiles only, free from wagons, pedestrians and other means, with a toll to cover its costs.

In the autumn of 1924 Victor Emmanuel III, at the wheel of a 8-cylinder Lancia Trikappa, cut the inaugural tape. At his side were Piero Puricelli and the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio, who praised him as the “master of new roads”. Puricelli won only partly his bet: the revenues from the tolls are not sufficient to cover the construction costs, and Italy had to pay the rest. From the reputation point of view, this intuition turns out to be an international success, so much so that many technicians reached Lainate to learn the secrets of this fascinating invention. Puricelli's career in the field of new motorways is just at the beginning. In 1928 he started the construction of the Firenze-Mare Motorway, becoming co-owner of the Società Autostrade. He was in charge of the construction of several fast roads, among which the Bergamo-Milan Motorway, the Pompeii Motorway, the Rome-Ostia Motorway and the Padua-Mestre Motorway. The poet was right: Piero Puricelli would really become a “master of new roads”.

Motor Web Musemum | The “Milano-Laghi” by Piero Puricelli, the first motorway in the world


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## italystf

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> *The first motorway in the world was constructed in ... Fascist Italy*


Highly debateable and discussed on SSC many and many times.
All highways opened in Fascist Italy between 1924 and 1935 were just single-carriaggeway fast roads reserved to motor vehicles, not motorways in the modern sense. Long Island Motor Parkway (near New York), opened in 1908, had similar standards.
The first motorway in the world was A5 between Frankfurt am Main and Darmstadt, Germany, opened in 1935.
In Italy the first real motorway was A7 between Tortona and Serravalle, opened on 26 July 1958 (exact date is relevant, as other motorways opened later in 1958).


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## Uppsala

italystf said:


> Highly debateable and discussed on SSC many and many times.
> All highways opened in Fascist Italy between 1924 and 1935 were just single-carriaggeway fast roads reserved to motor vehicles, not motorways in the modern sense. Long Island Motor Parkway (near New York), opened in 1908, had similar standards.
> The first motorway in the world was A5 between Frankfurt am Main and Darmstadt, Germany, opened in 1935.
> In Italy the first real motorway was A7 between Tortona and Serravalle, opened on 26 July 1958 (exact date is relevant, as other motorways opened later in 1958).



The first motorway in the world is usually said to be AVUS in Berlin. It was opened in 1921.

It was actually built as a race track. But it was allowed to be used for regular cars even when it was not race.

The road was built from the beginning as a dual carriageway according to the principle that still applies today to motorways. The difference was only the beginning and the end which were the turning trails, but these were only used in race.

The motorway is still in operation today. It is the A115 / E51 in Berlin.

It was thus built in 1921, well before the Nazis came to power in Germany. So Hitler has nothing to do with this. But long motorways were also planned in Germany a number of years before Hitler's regime.


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## brick84




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## g.spinoza

An oversize truck hit a bridge on SS76 superstrada in my hometown Jesi, central Italy. The bridge had to be closed down because it has to be completely rebuilt.
Traffic coming from the East (Ancona) must exit the expressway just before the bridge and can reenter just after. Traffic from the West, however, is forced to exit at Jesi Ovest and re-enter in Monsano, with no other option than crossing the city of Jesi entirely.



















JESI / Danneggiato cavalcavia della superstrada, traffico deviato


Danni causati da un camion che poi si è dileguato, allo svincolo di Jesi Est: chi proviene da Ancona può uscire e rientrare, nell’opposta direzione si esce a Jesi Ovest JESI, 19 giugno 2020 – Questa sera intorno alle ore 19.30 è stata chiusa la Strada Statale 76 in entrambi i sensi di marcia. Un...




www.qdmnotizie.it












Camion danneggia sottopasso Ss 76,chiusa Jesi Est da Ancona - Marche


Un camion ha danneggiato gravemente il sottopasso della superstrada 76 all'uscita di Jesi Est, rendendo non più transitabile quel tratto di superstrada stessa. (ANSA)




www.ansa.it


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## pccvspw999

A lorry capable to get away caused a damage to the bridge to be rebuilt?
Very encouraging.


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## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> A lorry capable to get away caused a damage to the bridge to be rebuilt?
> Very encouraging.


It damaged 7 of the bridge's beams. The driver fled the scene but was later identified.


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## Mateusz864

ROFL bridges in Italy are very unlucky these days...


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## sponge_bob

italystf said:


> Highly debateable and discussed on SSC many and many times.
> All highways opened in Fascist Italy between 1924 and 1935 were just single-carriaggeway fast roads reserved to motor vehicles, not motorways in the modern sense. Long Island Motor Parkway (near New York), opened in 1908, had similar standards.


Fair to say that:

"Thanks to early efforts by the Italians, during the 1920s, to create and evolve road standards, the recognisable modern motorway finally came about in the 1930s"


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## Uppsala

g.spinoza said:


> An oversize truck hit a bridge on SS76 superstrada in my hometown Jesi, central Italy. The bridge had to be closed down because it has to be completely rebuilt.
> Traffic coming from the East (Ancona) must exit the expressway just before the bridge and can reenter just after. Traffic from the West, however, is forced to exit at Jesi Ovest and re-enter in Monsano, with no other option than crossing the city of Jesi entirely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JESI / Danneggiato cavalcavia della superstrada, traffico deviato
> 
> 
> Danni causati da un camion che poi si è dileguato, allo svincolo di Jesi Est: chi proviene da Ancona può uscire e rientrare, nell’opposta direzione si esce a Jesi Ovest JESI, 19 giugno 2020 – Questa sera intorno alle ore 19.30 è stata chiusa la Strada Statale 76 in entrambi i sensi di marcia. Un...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.qdmnotizie.it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camion danneggia sottopasso Ss 76,chiusa Jesi Est da Ancona - Marche
> 
> 
> Un camion ha danneggiato gravemente il sottopasso della superstrada 76 all'uscita di Jesi Est, rendendo non più transitabile quel tratto di superstrada stessa. (ANSA)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ansa.it




But what I understand from the article about the accident, is not the bridge more damaged than it will still start to be used for regular traffic again in a few days after all?


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## g.spinoza

Uppsala said:


> But what I understand from the article about the accident, is not the bridge more damaged than it will still start to be used for regular traffic again in a few days after all?


The bridge is damaged beyond repair and it will be torn down and replaced.
They say they are going to build a temporary ramp to bypass in direction West-East, so traffic will not be forced to go through the town, and that this ramp will be demolished after the new bridge is complete.

I guess the first article was written before the technical assessment.









Ponte della Statale 76 lesionato, rintracciato il responsabile in fuga: danno milionario


La Polizia stradale di Jesi ha individuato il camionista che ha urtato con il tir 7 travi in cemento: l'intera struttura dovrà essere demolita e ricostruita




www.anconatoday.it


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## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> It damaged 7 of the bridge's beams. The driver fled the scene but was later identified.


No doubt, but how this could have happened? Were the beams made out of clay or reinforced concrete? Sure, an excavator is massive, but the debris on the road are far to less to make a well designd beam be "weakened beyond repair". Not to say for the complete bridge irreparable to be replaced completely.
When was it build? Maybe, beside the damage, it's also old enough to need replacement in some years, so they make one strike.


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## bortttt

pccvspw999 said:


> No doubt, but how this could have happened? Were the beams made out of clay or reinforced concrete? Sure, an excavator is massive, but the debris on the road are far to less to make a well designd beam be "weakened beyond repair". Not to say for the complete bridge irreparable to be replaced completely.
> When was it build? Maybe, beside the damage, it's also old enough to need replacement in some years, so they make one strike.


cement without cathodic protection after 50 years is clay...


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## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> No doubt, but how this could have happened? Were the beams made out of clay or reinforced concrete? Sure, an excavator is massive, but the debris on the road are far to less to make a well designd beam be "weakened beyond repair". Not to say for the complete bridge irreparable to be replaced completely.


Don't ask me, I'm not an engineer 



> When was it build? Maybe, beside the damage, it's also old enough to need replacement in some years, so they make one strike.


I can't give you an exact date, but that stretch is from the late 70s-early 80s. 
I know very well that area, because I was born and raised there, and I must say the conditions of the road have always been more than acceptable.
This is what the bridge looks like:








Google Maps


Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.




www.google.it


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## ChrisZwolle

pccvspw999 said:


> A lorry capable to get away caused a damage to the bridge to be rebuilt?
> Very encouraging.


This is fairly common with overheight trucks striking bridges. Even visually minor damage can mean that a bridge cannot be effectively repaired, in particular smaller bridges with a short single span. Replacement may cost only a few million euros, a small bridge often only need to have its beams and deck replaced.


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## pccvspw999

bortttt said:


> cement without cathodic protection after 50 years is clay...


That's why I asked for it's age 


g.spinoza said:


> [...]
> I can't give you an exact date, but that stretch is from the late 70s-early 80s.
> [...]


Thanks, the exteem is sufficient, and it fit with the appearance and wear.


ChrisZwolle said:


> This is fairly common with overheight trucks striking bridges. Even visually minor damage can mean that a bridge cannot be effectively repaired, in particular smaller bridges with a short single span. Replacement may cost only a few million euros, a small bridge often only need to have its beams and deck replaced.


I agree, but here it's a motorway with massive girders, it seems more a scratch than a strike. But the explanation can be seen in GSW: the girders were already reinfoced with steel shells, maybe it`s not the first hit, and the near factory of CNHi/CAT is a continuos threat to it. And the age doesn't help. So ANAS takes the chance to make it new, hopefully with larger clearance for the road beneath.


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## Uppsala

g.spinoza said:


> Don't ask me, I'm not an engineer
> 
> 
> 
> I can't give you an exact date, but that stretch is from the late 70s-early 80s.
> I know very well that area, because I was born and raised there, and I must say the conditions of the road have always been more than acceptable.
> This is what the bridge looks like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.it



I can see the road is a complete motorway. But a motorway with blue signs.


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## pccvspw999

Uppsala said:


> I can see the road is a complete motorway. But a motorway with blue signs.


Yes, and what is the point You want to expose?


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## g.spinoza

Uppsala said:


> I can see the road is a complete motorway. But a motorway with blue signs.


Not really. Maybe it doesn't show on Streetview but lanes are really narrow. There is absolutely no shoulder - except for a short stretch further East which was reconstructed few years ago - and at least one incline is steep. Some exits have basically no acceleration ramps.
Sometimes it feels 110 km/h is a little too high for that road.


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## geogregor

sponge_bob said:


> Fair to say that:
> 
> "Thanks to early efforts by the Italians, during the 1920s, to create and evolve road standards, the recognisable modern motorway finally came about in the 1930s"


Well, in Polish we use word "autostrada" for motorway.


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## g.spinoza

The toll booth of future junction "Terre Verdiane" on A15 extension North is beginning to take shape:































































Tibre, fra i poderi nel Parmense spunta un nuovo casello autostradale


Sono ripresi dopo il lockdown i lavori di realizzazione del primo lotto A15 - A22. Il tratto autostradale più breve d'Italia ha il suo approdo nel b…




parma.repubblica.it


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## italystf

Uppsala said:


> I can see the road is a complete motorway. But a motorway with blue signs.


In Italy blue the motorway sign means expressway. That's quite misleading for people coming from countries with blue motorway signage.


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## italystf

geogregor said:


> Well, in Polish we use word "autostrada" for motorway.


Also in Romanian and Albanian.


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## italystf

*Motorways, the Italian chaos: endless queues and non-compliant tunnels. And it is also the fault of politics*

Kilometers of queue, traffic lights at the toll booths, up to two hours for 25 km routes. Liguria now seems on the verge of an unprecedented infrastructure crisis. But if many wonder what is going on, it is good to consider that the serious situation is not linked to the failure to open the Morandi Bridge, but to political, business and administrative choices prior to the collapse of the bridge. To understand the situation, it is useful to report that all European highways must comply with a 2004 European directive, which indicates the minimum safety requirements for tunnels.

The problems are escape routes, ventilation systems, radios, lighting, emergency stations, water supply devices and many other measures that have not yet been implemented in many of the Italian tunnels (587 of which works have been planned). The deadline for implementing the directive had been extended to 2019, with a full 5 year extension compared to the original deadline. Despite this, however, it is estimated that most of tunnels in Italy are not compliant. This does not mean that there are necessarily structural problems - as ASPI pointed out a few months ago, but it is still a matter of adapting to the legislation to avoid maxi-fines, which would weigh on the already complex condition of the company.

On the subject of skills, mutual accusations and discharges of responsibility between local authorities, the Government and motorway concessionaires followed. For Italian law, the State and Regions share the regulatory competence (this prescribes the Constitution in article 117 when referring to "large transport networks"). This implicitly means that local authorities and the Ministry have a moral suasion power towards the subjects responsible for implementing security measures but, evidently, have not exercised it or have not done so successfully.

Being an EU directive, the responsibility for implementation is also shared between State and Regions. Normally in these contexts it is the state that outlines the principles, and the regions that define the operations. It often happens, however, that the two bodies do not agree, or do not speak correctly or, even more often, that one of the two does not exercise any type of action. A few years ago, for example, the Friuli-Venezia Giulia Region, in order to compensate for the lack of state indications, issued a regional law to regulate the port of Monfalcone, exerting a force against the law of the State in order to comply with a ports-related EU directive.

To solve the problems of shared competence, some regions have decided to "regionalize" the motorway network, such as Trentino-Alto Adige, Piedmont, Lombardy, and Friuli Venezia Giulia. To further complicate the situation, there is also the fact that the Autostrade group has various sensitivities within it, between shareholders and companies that maintain different relationships (and often in conflict) with national and local authorities. One thing is certain: between blocked exits, queues, single-lane detours, the Liguria Region, and many other areas of Italy are destined to see their infrastructure conditions aggravated. With the responsibility of all the actors involved.

Original source (in Italian): Autostrade, il caos italiano: code infinite e gallerie non a norma. E la colpa è anche della politica


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## geogregor

italystf said:


> Also in Romanian and Albanian.


In case of Albania it is easy to explain by geographic proximity and in case of Romania there are cultural and, to lesser degree, linguistic connections.

Poland is strange case, you would think that we should adopt name closer to German term for motorway...


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## SeanT

When you mention sztráda(autostrade) in hungarian then everyone you ask will know that it is a motorway but never an expressway in HU. Like balatoni sztráda (motorway of Balaton(M7))


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## italystf

geogregor said:


> In case of Albania it is easy to explain by geographic proximity and in case of Romania there are cultural and, to lesser degree, linguistic connections.
> 
> Poland is strange case, you would think that we should adopt name closer to German term for motorway...


Italy was the main investor in Albania and the main destination for Albanian immigrants after the fall of communism, so it's not surprising. Even Albanian signage is very similar to our.
In Poland maybe they purposely wanted to avoid the German name for political reasons. After WWII (even if most Polish motorways are post-2000, some were planned or built during the People's Republic), memories of German invasion were still recent, and the term Autobahn was someway connected with National-socialism and Hitler, something that the Communist regimer never wanted to.


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## italystf

The Italian term autostrada was also used in Sweden and Flanders in the past.


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## italystf

*Plants and special hydraulic pumps to purify runoff waters from the motorway*

There are 240 hydraulic reservoirs built along the Autovie Venete network to purify the waters. An investment of 47 million euros only in the third lane sections of A4. Phyto-purification was also tested on the A34.

Maximum respect for the environment crossed and a considerable commitment, including economic, to protect it from pollution. When Autovie Venete builds new infrastructures, such as the third lane of the A4, it also builds a whole series of plants to purify the water before returning it to the territory. In the section already completed (Quarto D’Altino-San Donà di Piave) and in the sections under construction (Alvisopoli-Gonars; Gonars - node of Palmanova), the investment for the hydraulic reservoirs was approximately 47 million and 600 thousand euros. An important figure, but not compressible, because the environment is a precious heritage. When it rains, the path that the water takes is perfectly organized: from the roadway to an ad hoc basin that acts as a lung, gradually releasing it - after cleaning it - and redistributing it in the hydrographic network. For this reason, specific hydraulic reservoirs - a total of 240 - have been built along the Autovie network, with the bottom waterproofed. Before reaching these basins, the water follows a precise procedure which involves several purification phases. Through the guard ditches or the concrete channels (depending on the project) the water arrives in a sort of reinforced concrete tank where, in a first phase, it sediments on the bottom the solid parts transported - dust, sand and debris - and, subsequently passing through coalescence filters, it undergoes an oil removal treatment in which oils and hydrocarbons are separated. At this point the water fills the hydraulic basins and finally, through a lifting station, consisting of small pumps, is returned to the hydrographic network with the characteristic flow rate of the surface before waterproofing. Along the A34 Villesse - Gorizia, a further method of filtering "dirty" water was tested: phytodepuration. What's it about? After sedimentation and oil removal, the water arrives in a basin covered with a waterproof sheet full of sand which houses a specific vegetation (swamp straws) suitable for absorbing other pollutants such as nitrogen. Downstream of phytodepuration, the waters cross the so-called "wet pond" and then slowly infiltrate the subsoil thanks to a further vegetated area. Wet ponds and water basins can play an additional important role also as "wetlands", becoming very attractive habitats for different species of birds, such as cormorants, swans, moorhens, mallards and others. Unfortunately, it is not always possible to give environmental value to plants that primarily arise with the task of purifying and laminating the waters. These systems, in fact, if on the one hand they must meet needs for easy maintenance and at the same time guarantee adequate safety (fencing), on the other they cannot always present adequate ecological conditions, such as, for example, the presence of constant, indispensable water to allow the development of vegetation.

Original article in Italian: Piante e speciali pompe idrauliche depurano le acque dell’autostrada


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## Uppsala

italystf said:


> The Italian term autostrada was also used in Sweden and Flanders in the past.



The word Autostrada is actually still used in Sweden, although it is less common today. But there are especially some Swedish motorways called Autostrada by the people who live near these who say the word Autostrada about the motorway they have.

The word Autostrada was the most common word in Sweden for motorway during the 1950s and also in the early 1960s. Actually, it would have been more of a Swedish tradition to call it "Autobahn", ie to absorb the German word. Most words in the Swedish language that are related to technology, infrastructure or communication are usually taken from the German language but many times a little changed to a slightly more Swedish version of it.

So a logical word in Swedish would have been to call it "Autobana", which is almost the German word. But the word "Autobana" is not found in the Swedish language. Probably because they started with motorways in Sweden in the late 1940s and even though Sweden was friends with Germany, it was probably a little scared to pick up a word that many thought belonged to Hitler. At that time, in Sweden, it was considered that the word "Autostrada" sounded more "global".

The first Swedish motorways looked like German motorways at the time and they were often compared to the German ones, but they were either called Autostrada or Motorväg. In the early years, the Swedish people and the media used to say "Autostrada", but the Swedish authorities used to call them "Motorväg".

I have often wondered if the English word "Motorway" can come from the Swedish word "Motorväg". The first road in Sweden that would look like a motorway was built in the late 1940s and already had dual carriageway from the beginning. But the exits did not quite meet the standard. The first fully official was opened in 1953. But this means that Sweden was ahead of the UK with motorways. The first in the UK did not open until 1958. So before 1958, there was no English-speaking country that had something called "Motorway". Because in the US it has always been called "Highway" or "Freeway", or possibly "Parkway" and so of course "Interstate". But not exactly the word "Motorway". So it actually looks like the UK took the Swedish word "Motorväg" and translated it into "Motorway"


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## 54°26′S 3°24′E

Or possibly not. According to M-W first usage of "motorway" was in 1897. Definition of MOTORWAY


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## Uppsala

54°26′S 3°24′E said:


> Or possibly not. According to M-W first usage of "motorway" was in 1897. Definition of MOTORWAY



But 1897 did not exist what we mean today motorway. The word may thus have existed, but not with the meaning we imagine.

So here is the question if it was Sweden who first used the word "Motorväg" which then inspired the UK to follow after 1958 by calling it "Motorway"?

For my part, I think it would have been easier in Sweden to continue to call it "Autostrada", which they had started with anyway. After all, it had matched up quite well with "Autobahn" in Germany. Probably Denmark would not have participated in that, and perhaps even though it was called "Autostrada" in Sweden called its own in Denmark for "Motorvej", but it had no significance.


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## ChrisZwolle

Autostrada is still colloquially used in Flanders, quite frequently from what I've seen.


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## ChrisZwolle

What is happening around Genova? Google Maps shows significant traffic congestion for a couple of weeks now on A7, A10, A12 and A26. This doesn't appear to be related to the Morandi Bridge collapse.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> What is happening around Genova? Google Maps shows significant traffic congestion for a couple of weeks now on A7, A10, A12 and A26. This doesn't appear to be related to the Morandi Bridge collapse.


There are currently a lot of counterflows and lane reductions due to safety checks in tunnels and bridges. In total 29 tunnels have been closed in the past weeks; today 12 of them are going to reopen, but new bypasses (each with 1 lane per direction) are going to be put in place.









Autostrade, dal 3 luglio riaprono 12 delle 29 gallerie chiuse: ma gli effetti positivi non saranno immediati - IVG.it


Saranno installati nuovi bypass per rispettare le tempistiche di intervento prescritte dal MIT




www.ivg.it


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## legolego

The "Gronda di Genova" project is so necessary tu be built!
Genoa needs a completly new by-pass as soon as possible


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## PovilD

Uppsala said:


> But 1897 did not exist what we mean today motorway. The word may thus have existed, but not with the meaning we imagine.
> 
> So here is the question if it was Sweden who first used the word "Motorväg" which then inspired the UK to follow after 1958 by calling it "Motorway"?
> 
> For my part, I think it would have been easier in Sweden to continue to call it "Autostrada", which they had started with anyway. After all, it had matched up quite well with "Autobahn" in Germany. Probably Denmark would not have participated in that, and perhaps even though it was called "Autostrada" in Sweden called its own in Denmark for "Motorvej", but it had no significance.


Interesting case would be with Baltic States. In my country official term of motorway is Russian "automagistralė", but colloquially people uses "autostrada". Without Soviet occupation, the term for motorway would likely remain "autostrada", since I saw plan for a motorway from 30s which was called "autostrada Vilnius-Kaunas". It may have followed foreign examples too as it was with Nordic countries, the word something like "motorkelis" could have been invented. I imagine in Latvian it would have been "motorceļš". Estonians uses "kiirtee", we have the word "greitkelis" (speed road) for that which is basically German translation of "Schnellstraße", but Finnish uses "moottoritie". It would be interesting if on other occasion, Estonians would have been invented the similar sounding word too.
Dutch uses "snelweg" (lit. "fast road") for motorway. I'm thinking whanever we could abolish the term "automagistralė" which is not used colloquially anyway, and it's one of the words that may remind dark aspects of being on Soviet side of history, and use just "greitkelis". It's unlikely that we will invent new words for roads that have likelihood for not being used in general population. Just renaming "automagistralė" to "autostrada" could work too. Both words are not of Lithuanian origin. "Automagistralė" is probably used as a term because it's part of "Magistraliniai keliai" (main roads) in our road network.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> What is happening around Genova? Google Maps shows significant traffic congestion for a couple of weeks now on A7, A10, A12 and A26. This doesn't appear to be related to the Morandi Bridge collapse.


This article has a more detailed story:








Autostrade liguri, la corsa contro il tempo per smontare le gallerie (e la circolare del 1967 mai attuata)


Tutte le motivazioni all’origine delle interminabili code sulle autostrade liguri. La richiesta del ministero guidato da Paola De Micheli di procedere entro il 30 giugno allo smontaggio di tutte le canaline che rivestono i tunnel. Da qui i mille cantieri sulla rete




www.corriere.it





Ministry of Transportation has asked Autostrade per l'Italia to remove and replace gutters, drains and waterproof coatings inside all of the 285 tunnels (144 km) of their network. At the beginning it was supposed to be done "within the year" but apparently the Minister has asked to do that faster.
Autostrade per l'Italia is now working on 350,000 square meters of coating, and that implied a lot of lane closures and counterflows.


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## Uppsala

g.spinoza said:


> There are currently a lot of counterflows and lane reductions due to safety checks in tunnels and bridges. In total 29 tunnels have been closed in the past weeks; today 12 of them are going to reopen, but new bypasses (each with 1 lane per direction) are going to be put in place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Autostrade, dal 3 luglio riaprono 12 delle 29 gallerie chiuse: ma gli effetti positivi non saranno immediati - IVG.it
> 
> 
> Saranno installati nuovi bypass per rispettare le tempistiche di intervento prescritte dal MIT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ivg.it



Will all these parts be open when they open the new bridge in Genova?


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## bortttt

Uppsala said:


> Will all these parts be open when they open the new bridge in Genova?


yess


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## g.spinoza

Uppsala said:


> Will all these parts be open when they open the new bridge in Genova?


I don't think so.


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## bortttt

Multa record, automobilista "beccata" dall’autovelox a 703 km/h: «Un ricorso per non pagarla»


OSIMO - Alla conducente di una utilitaria in transito su via di Jesi è stato notificato il verbale di contestazione con una contravvenzione di 847 euro e la decurtazione di 10 punti della patente. Il Comitato per il Rispetto al Codice della Strada è pronto ad occuparsi dal caso mentre il comando del




www.cronachemaceratesi.it




When in addition to the roads in poor condition there are now also autovelox going crazy...


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## italystf

*Escape from the port of Genoa, the Chinese container ships flee. «Ligurian motorways in chaos»*

The shipping giant Cosco writes to customers: "Liguria on chaos, we can deliver goods using other ports, from Ravenna to Trieste". The general manager Donati: «What is happening is very dangerous, because if a company goes elsewhere it is not said that it will return».

Escape from Genoa. If a shipping company of the size of Cosco, a global shipping giant headed by the Chinese state, decides to send a circular to its customers strongly advising them not to use the port of Genoa for their shipments and suggesting alternative Italian ports of call, then it means that the situation is perhaps getting out of hand.
Cosco is headquartered in Beijing, its fleet is made up of more than 800 ships for a total tonnage that exceeds 56 million tons. Cosco is the third largest container operator in the world, ahead of the French of Cma Cgm and behind the Danish leader Maersk Line and the Swiss company MSC (Mediterranean Shipping Company).

The letter
Il Sole 24 Ore reached Marco Donati, general manager of Cosco Shipping lines Italy on the phone: "Cosco - says Donati - has been present in Genoa since 1963. It is the first time that we have been dealing with such an emergency, with trucks that they cannot enter the port, with the Genova Ovest tollbooth blocked at crucial hours, with the containers stopped for days on the aprons because the customer cannot collect them and with the terminal operators who do not offer discounts but, on the contrary, intend to be paid even if the container stands still due to force majeure ». The causes of force majeure are the Ligurian motorways, which Cosco's note defines as collapsing. In particular, the guidelines that connect the port of Genoa with the neighboring regions are - read the note - in a shameful situation.

Cosco writes to customers: with sections closed at night and also during the day along the A10, A26, A7, A12 highways, with dozens of kilometers in a single lane, which generate queues of several kilometers daily, reaching the loading and unloading sites always becomes more difficult and exhausting. "Given the current situation - continues the note - we ask for your collaboration to inform the receivers and loaders on the obvious problems that trucks encounter on a daily basis and which will have repercussions on the regularity of transport services". The ships and services of Cosco Shipping line, the circular continues, regularly climb other Italian ports which currently face a much better motorway situation than the Genoese one (see the ports of La Spezia, Trieste, Venice, Ravenna). "We invite you - reads the letter - to evaluate together with our commercial and logistic offices, alternative choices". For example, the intermodal service (train + truck) is cited by Cosco as a valid alternative to the truck service "which is currently under stress and in evident difficulty".

How much Cosco is worth for Genoa
Chiati Donati: «The Italian ports that we have suggested to our customers as a valid alternative to Genoa are those where Cosco is present and is able to guarantee service at the highest level. I add that currently Cosco handles about 170 thousand teu a year on Genoa (out of a total of 2.3 million teu moved in a year from the port of Genoa, ed), so we can say that Cosco is worth 7-8% of the port of Genoa. From Genoa our container ships leave and arrive from all over Asia, from the United States, from West Africa, from the entire Mediterranean and from the area that goes from the Suez canal to India. A global traffic network, held hostage by a devastating highway situation, managed, according to our point of view, with little transparency. We understand the importance of controls, but an entire port and its operators cannot be kept in check. "

The intermodal share
A further weak point of the port of Genoa is the very low share of intermodal transport. In La Spezia, for example, the intermodal share exceeds 33% while in Genoa (considering all the terminals in Voltri and in the historic port) it does not exceed 10-12% of the total volumes. This means that about 90% of the goods entering or leaving the port travel by truck. Consequently, there is no escape for the port of Genoa: if road access to the port goes haywire, as in these days, the port is blocked, with enormous losses. On the other hand, ports such as Trieste and Ravenna, among the alternative landing places indicated by Cosco, exploit railway connections a great deal: Trieste was born and raised by rail, while in Ravenna massive investments are underway to enhance access by rail with the port. "What is happening in Genoa - continues Donati - is very dangerous, because if a customer is forced to move elsewhere, it is not obvious that in the future he will be able to go back". Without underestimating the competition from Northern European ports: Rotterdam, Hamburg, Aversa. «At this moment - Donati concludes - we aim to move the containers to other Italian ports. The fact is that Genoa thrives on logistics and for the city it is a serious loss. We have already suffered in silence from the collapse of the Morandi Bridge, which we have now rebuilt. We do not deserve to be treated in this way by government and Autostrade society ».

Original article in Italian: Fuga dal porto di Genova, scappano le portacontainer cinesi. «Autostrade liguri nel caos»


----------



## keber

What is the current expected opening date for Polcevera viaduct? It should be pretty close now.


----------



## bortttt

keber said:


> What is the current expected opening date for Polcevera viaduct? It should be pretty close now.


early August, if the asphalt comes in...


----------



## Uppsala

bortttt said:


> early August, if the asphalt comes in...



And what would be the problem with delivering asphalt to the bridge?


----------



## bortttt

Uppsala said:


> And what would be the problem with delivering asphalt to the bridge?











Nuovo ponte, asfaltatura a rischio per i cantieri Aspi. Bucci: "Materia prima da buttare se sta ore in coda" - Genova 24


Il materiale arriva dal Basso Piemonte, il rischio è che possa deteriorarsi in caso di blocchi stradali. La consegna dell'opera è fissata al 29 luglio




www.genova24.it





the asphalt has to pass through the Ligurian motorway network, which is not at all in a decent state, a trip of 1h becomes 3-4-5h


----------



## italystf

*Motorway construction sites: 10 km queues on the A12 and 10 km on the A26*

GENOA - It began with a ten-kilometer queue on the A12, between Recco and Genoa East, in the morning on the Ligurian motorways because of the construction sites open for the safety of the tunnels. On A7, towards Milan, a long queue has formed between Genoa Sampierdarena and the A7 / A12 Genoa-Livorno junction.

On A10, towards Genoa, instead 3 Km between the junction A10 / begin bypass of Savona and Albisola. In A26 there were 10 kilometers of queue between Masone and the A26 / A10 Genova-Ventimiglia junction. City traffic also has repercussions with slowdowns, especially in the west. Difficulty exiting at Genova Ovest exit.

The reopening of the Rapallo toll booth, leaving for those coming from Genoa, was postponed to 8 pm tonight, Monday 6 July. Aspi informs him that he remembers that the reopening of the Genoa Nervi tollbooth always on the A12, entering towards Sestri Levante and leaving for those coming from Genoa, is scheduled for 6 on Wednesday 8 July. On the other hand, the section between Genoa East and Recco towards Livorno from 22 on Tuesday 7 to 6 on Wednesday 8 July 2020 is expected to close on A12. The mandatory outgoing traffic in Genoa Est may eventually return to the highway in Recco after having traveled the municipal road system and then the SS1 Aurelia.

On the A26 Genoa Voltri-Gravellona Toce motorway, on the other hand, the entrance to Masone (Genoa) was re-opened in both directions, towards Genoa and towards Gravellona Toce. The toll booth was closed on 9 June due to a landslide. The station, Aspi also explains, has been reopened thanks to an ad hoc procedure, which provides for continuous monitoring of the external slope affected by the landslide movement. Ad hoc instruments are active for monitoring with a 24-hour operating camera and a meteorological station with anemometer for the continuous recording of atmospheric precipitation.

In addition, two piezometers have been created to identify the groundwater level and two inclinometers to measure any deformation of the slope. The junction is also manned 24 hours a day with two fixed positions: one near the roundabout on the border between the area covered by Aspi and the external road system, the other at the station where the landslide is located. On the basis of the constant monitoring of the information deriving from the instrumentation, possible precautionary closings of the Masone station will be assessed, in case of exceeding the predetermined thresholds with respect to the events of atmospheric precipitation that will be detected.

"The trunk management confirms its constant availability for discussion with the local administrations which will continue to be updated on the progress of the inspection and maintenance activities on the A26".

Original article in Italian: Cantieri autostrade: 10 km code in A12 e 10 km in A26


----------



## geogregor

It sounds like motorway network around Genoa simply cannot cope.

Are there any plans for expansion? Modal shift? Anything?


----------



## Suburbanist

geogregor said:


> It sounds like motorway network around Genoa simply cannot cope.
> 
> Are there any plans for expansion? Modal shift? Anything?


There is a large plan for a bypass of the whole area









Gronda di Genova - Wikipedia







it.wikipedia.org


----------



## g.spinoza

A large number of projects has been "unlocked" by a special decree of the government which gives them a status very similar to the Morandi bridge. Each of these works will be assigned to a government-appointed commissioner and a lot of bureaucracy will be scrapped or otherwise expedited.
The list (roads only):


Rome-Latina motorway (1.5 G€)
A12 Tarquinia-San Pietro in Palazzi completion (1 G€)
new lot of SS106 in Calabria (1.3 G€)
SS4 Salaria in the earthquake region (150 M€)
connection SS514-SS115 in Sicily (670 M€)
SS675 Monte Romano-Civitavecchia completion (472 M€)









Le trenta opere pubbliche sbloccate dal decreto: 15 miliardi di investimenti


Pronto l’elenco delle infrastrutture – strade, ferrovie, dighe e acquedotti – che verranno “sbloccate” utilizzando poteri superspeciali che verranno attribuiti…




www.lastampa.it


----------



## legolego

The "Gronda di Genova" project detailed here:















Il tracciato | Gronda di Genova







www.grondadigenova.it














This is the approved "definitive project"


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## g.spinoza

^^ 
A slighly larger, more readable image (click to enlarge):


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Ligurian gridlock has hit the English news reports by ANSA for two straight days:









Huge tailbacks on Liguria motorways - English


There were huge tailbacks on Ligurian motorways on Monday morning. Columns of motionless vehicles stretched as far as 10 kilometres on both the A12 and A 26 motorways, key links between Genoa and other northern cities. © ANSA




www.ansa.it













Ligurian motorways hit by more traffic chaos - English


Ligurian motorways were hit by fresh road traffic chaos amid works on tunnel maintenance on Tuesday. There was a 14-km tailback on the A26 near Genoa. On the A10, not far away, there was a 3km tailback. © ANSA




www.ansa.it


----------



## italystf

*Bridge or tunnel, now the government restarts on the Strait of Messina*

A study will be funded to evaluate the stable connection options after the release of the fast Salerno-Reggio Calabria and the acceleration of the Catania-Messina-Palermo railways

Now that the Conte government - with the Prime Minister and the Minister of Infrastructure Paola De Micheli - has made the project for the completion of the high-speed AVR network (re-titled #italiaveloce) with the start of the Salerno-Reggio Calabria fast railway line project and the acceleration of the Catania-Messina-Palermo project, it was unavoidable that the last remaining node on the network, that of the stable, rail and highway connection, between Calabria and Sicily on the Messina Strait Bridge would also be dissolved.

New feasibility project
By the hour - if it has not already happened at the end of the Night Council of Ministers which examined the simplification law decree and the Infrastructure annex to the Economic and Finance Document containing the plan of the government's priority works - the prime minister and the minister will announce the decision of proceed with a new technical-economic (and also environmental) feasibility project that compares the different possible options for crossing the Strait: there will inevitably be the old project of the single-span bridge of the company Stretto di Messina, for which it is a dispute is still ongoing with the general contractor Eurolink; there will almost certainly be a new multi-span bridge project; the hypothesis of the tunnel or sub-river tunnels will also reappear.

Fifty million euros are ready to decide which is the most appropriate solution to ensure the realization of the missing link in the design to put the entire country on the High-speed network.

Acceleration on two fronts
The relaunch on the Strait of Messina will also sound to many as evidence of the acceleration that the premier wants to impress on his government's infrastructure programs. And of those for the development of the South, in particular. A confirmation that the premier is serious about the double match of the great works and the South.

Conte for other would meet the favor of a large part of the M5S to this choice which would be acceptable - put in terms of High network speed - also to the Democratic Party, contrary to the work when it was proposed and designed by the Berlusconi governments and by the Stretto di Messina society.

Political caution dictates that nothing will actually be decided until the confrontation that is triggered (even with a public debate procedure) by the feasibility project, but the change of opinion is evident.

Original article in Italian: Ponte o tunnel, ora il governo riparte sullo Stretto di Messina


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## ChrisZwolle

Things must be pretty bad when the whole front page of a news website (Genova 24) is about infrastructure and the traffic jams.


----------



## g.spinoza

The decision by the government to hand over the newly built Genoa bridge to Autostrade per l'Italia has sparked a lot of controversy.
Cinque stelle party is criticized for not having withdrawn the concession from ASPI after the collapse of the previous bridge, so handing it over to them is seen as an insult to the victims.
More pragmatically, questioning the handover now would have resulted in the bridge not being able to open...









Il nuovo ponte di Genova è subito un caso: la gestione ad Autostrade


Il ministero: "Sia affidato al concessionario in carica alla fine dei lavori". Bucci: "Ispezioni e collaudo già assegnati ad altri sogget…




genova.repubblica.it


----------



## verreme

g.spinoza said:


> A large number of projects has been "unlocked" by a special decree of the government which gives them a status very similar to the Morandi bridge. Each of these works will be assigned to a government-appointed commissioner and a lot of bureaucracy will be scrapped or otherwise expedited.
> The list (roads only):
> 
> 
> Rome-Latina motorway (1.5 G€)
> A12 Tarquinia-San Pietro in Palazzi completion (1 G€)
> new lot of SS106 in Calabria (1.3 G€)
> SS4 Salaria in the earthquake region (150 M€)
> connection SS514-SS115 in Sicily (670 M€)
> SS675 Monte Romano-Civitavecchia completion (472 M€)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Le trenta opere pubbliche sbloccate dal decreto: 15 miliardi di investimenti
> 
> 
> Pronto l’elenco delle infrastrutture – strade, ferrovie, dighe e acquedotti – che verranno “sbloccate” utilizzando poteri superspeciali che verranno attribuiti…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lastampa.it


So this means that the idea of a continous A12 between Rome and Livorno is recovered... again?


----------



## g.spinoza

verreme said:


> So this means that the idea of a continous A12 between Rome and Livorno is recovered... again?


Apparently.
But I don't believe everything. That document is full of puzzling things. The list of works "unlocked" features already in construction things, like first lot of A15 extension or the SPV...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Norway is not an EU country, but it has over 1,100 road tunnels.


----------



## keber

intersezioni said:


> As imposed by the Italian government, a massive restructuring plan will begin on the tunnels and bridges of the Ligurian motorways, hundreds of workers will work 24 hours a day and hundreds of millions of euros will be spent.


It would be nothing wrong if this restructuring plan would be expanded to all Italian tunnels. The problem of Italian tunnels is (and motorways in general too) that significant improvement works of existing infrastructure are very rare, almost nonexisting.


----------



## Puležan

g.spinoza said:


> I read it somewhere as well, but I think it is exagerated.
> According to this 2011 document, Italy has 48% of the tunnels in the EU, and Liguria has 28% of the tunnels in Italy.
> So, the 28% of 48% is 13.8%.
> I don't know if they are considered by length or by number.


True. That document is from 2011, before Croatia joined the EU in 2013. Croatia also has many tunnels in relation to its size, so I think it could change the statistics a little bit 😉

according to wikipedia, there are at least 59 tunnels on motorways (maybe more, I don't know if wikipedia has accurate data. Only A3, A5, A9 and A11 don't have tunnels at all. Only 5 out of 59 are single tube at the moment (2 on A2, 3 on A8))
at least 30 tunnels on state roads (državne ceste)
at least 6 tunnels on county/regional roads (županijske ceste)
1 on local road (lokalne ceste).
Wikipedia article


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> It would be nothing wrong if this restructuring plan would be expanded to all Italian tunnels. The problem of Italian tunnels is (and motorways in general too) that significant improvement works of existing infrastructure are very rare, almost nonexisting.


What I don't like about Italian motorways (amongst other things like signage, connections between them, etc) is the enormous number of exception to the rule: emergency lanes constantly interrupted by bridges and tunnels, stretches with less than nominal speed limit...
To me, every motorway which do not meet the standards should be downgraded to expressway. Bozen-Brenner stretch of A22, many (if not all) Ligurian motorways, Turin-Frejus (A32), Quincinetto-Monte Bianco (A5).


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## g.spinoza

^^ Speaking of standards:









Ponte Genova fuori norma, probabile limite velocità a 70 km/h


Sul nuovo ponte sul Polcevera si dovrà andare più piano rispetto al vecchio Ponte Morandi: il limite si abbasserà da 90 km/h a 80 e forse a 70. Perché è stato progettato con le stesse curvature degli anni ‘60 ma dal 2001 i parametri sono più restrittivi




www.corriere.it





*Genoa bridge not up to code, speed limit of 70 km/h probable*

In few words, the bridge has been built with the same standards of the 60s, which have been upgraded in time, though. For this reason, while the old Morandi was limited at 90, current Genoa bridge will be probably limited to 80 or even 70 (especially eastwards).


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Norway is not an EU country, but it has over 1,100 road tunnels.


According to this website, the ANAS network alone has 1235 tunnels, for 755 km.








Gallerie stradali, in Italia c'è il maggior numero di tunnel dell'Europa. L'analisi dell'ing ANAS Antonio Valente


Nell’ambito della sicurezza stradale, il tema delle gallerie assume... continua a leggere




www.histonium.net


----------



## Uppsala

Is the new bridge in Genova basically finished now? With asphalt and everything? I have read that they are testing the bearing capacity of the bridge right now by driving heavy lorries back and forth on the bridge.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This is a current (as of this posting) webcam shot of the bridge. It looks advanced, it appears that they are doing some static load testing.


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

g.spinoza said:


> According to this website, the ANAS network alone has 1235 tunnels, for 755 km.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gallerie stradali, in Italia c'è il maggior numero di tunnel dell'Europa. L'analisi dell'ing ANAS Antonio Valente
> 
> 
> Nell’ambito della sicurezza stradale, il tema delle gallerie assume... continua a leggere
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.histonium.net


As mentioned in the Norwegian thread, Norway has 1 458 km of public road tunnel tubes distributed among 1 486 objects. The official number of public tunnels is 1 225. I think the difference between "tunnel tube" and "tunnel" is that a "tunnel" could consist of two parallel tubes as well as side arms and ramps etc. The wast majority of Norwegian tunnels are however single tube. The west coast of southern Norway has the highest concentration of tunnels in the country.

Japan and in particular China have many more tunnels of significantly longer total length.


----------



## g.spinoza

54°26′S 3°24′E said:


> As mentioned in the Norwegian thread, Norway has 1 458 km of public road tunnel tubes distributed among 1 486 objects. The official number of public tunnels is 1 225. I think the difference between "tunnel tube" and "tunnel" is that a "tunnel" could consist of two parallel tubes as well as side arms and ramps etc. The wast majority of Norwegian tunnels are however single tube. The west coast of southern Norway has the highest concentration of tunnels in the country.
> 
> Japan and in particular China have many more tunnels of significantly longer total length.


Yes, that document I quoted also specifies this.
It says that ANAS network (so only state-managed roads, no provincial or regional roads) consists of 1235 tunnels for 755 km: of those, 911 are single tube and 295 are twin tube.


----------



## brick84

from italian thread:


----------



## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela, Sicily*

new lots from Rosolini to Modica - here near Ispica/Pozzallo


new viaduct "Salvia" above SP Ispica-Pozzallo and new deviation:


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## g.spinoza

Two posts above your, already there.



brick84 said:


> from italian thread:
> 
> 
> View attachment 323301


----------



## g.spinoza

Genoa bridge inauguration -> 3 August 18:30









Il nuovo ponte di Genova sarà inaugurato il 3 agosto


Lo ha annunciato il sindaco Marco Bucci, si chiamerà 'Genova San Giorgio'




genova.repubblica.it


----------



## VITORIA MAN

el nuevo puente de Genova será inaugurado el 3 agosto , lo ha anunciado ... se llamará ...
here italian can not be more similar to spanish


----------



## Rebasepoiss

g.spinoza said:


> Genoa bridge inauguration -> 3 August 18:30
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Il nuovo ponte di Genova sarà inaugurato il 3 agosto
> 
> 
> Lo ha annunciato il sindaco Marco Bucci, si chiamerà 'Genova San Giorgio'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> genova.repubblica.it


Credit where credit's due, the pace for the construction of the new bridge has been very impressive!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

And most of the bridge was built in only one year. The bridge collapsed on 14 August 2018, but the remaining pylons weren't demolished until almost a year later (28 June 2019), so most of the new bridge construction has taken place between summer 2019 and summer 2020.


----------



## Uppsala

The case of the bridge in Genova is very similar to the bridge called Tjörnbron in Sweden in 1980. On January 18, 1980, a large bridge collapsed after a ship had run over the bridge. Here, too, it was people who died in the accident.

As early as November 9, 1981, a new bridge was opened to replace the collapsed bridge. So even here they had managed in an extremely short time managed to design and build a completely new bridge as a replacement.

It is not at all impossible that those responsible for the project in Genova can know about the case of Tjörnbron in Sweden and then learn from it and follow the same path.

The cases with Tjörbron in Sweden and the bridge in Genova are very similar.









I dag är det 40 år sedan Tjörnbron rasade


Natten mot lördag var det 40 år sedan den ödesdigra januarinatten då fartyget Star Clipper kolliderade med Tjörnbron som rasade ner i havet. Åtta personer miste livet, då de i dimman inte såg att vägbanan var borta och körde rakt ner i det kalla vattnet 40 meter nedanför. Rita Cordenius make...




www.expressen.se


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Another example of a quick bridge replacement was the I-35W Saint Anthony Falls Bridge in Minneapolis. It collapsed on 1 August 2007. They started construction on the new bridge in October 2007 and the bridge opened to traffic on 18 September 2008, so within a year. This is a ten lane box-girder bridge.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Flashing lights at the Ponte Genova-San Giorgio:


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ You're fascinated by Genoa bridge lighting, aren't you? It's not the first time you posted similar images


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## legolego

The bridge will be effective carriageable on the *5th *of *August

"Genova, il nuovo ponte percorribile dal 5 agosto. Bucci: "Nessuno ci credeva" - See more at: Genova, il nuovo ponte percorribile dal 5 agosto. Bucci: "Nessuno ci credeva" "*


----------



## legolego

Inspection activities reached 1.419 on bridges.
Other 3.500 will be involved. 
*Ministry of Transportation *Directorate General for Road Safety


----------



## Coccodrillo

On the island of Ventotene (between Rome and Naples) only residents can bring a motor vehicle. That's understandable, considering that the only road to access the quay where ferries arrive is this:









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.ch





And the other roads are not much wider. The island is linked by one or two ferry trips a day from Formia carrying also road vehicles, plus one or two trips with passenger-only hydrofoils.



https://laziomar.it/formia-ventotene


----------



## brick84

*Highway A19 Palermo-Catania*

_recostruction of "Himera" viaduct almost complete. It will open within July._


----------



## x-type

Coccodrillo said:


> On the island of Ventotene (between Rome and Naples) only residents can bring a motor vehicle. That's understandable, considering that the only road to access the quay where ferries arrive is this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.ch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the other roads are not much wider. The island is linked by one or two ferry trips a day from Formia carrying also road vehicles, plus one or two trips with passenger-only hydrofoils.
> 
> 
> 
> https://laziomar.it/formia-ventotene


Wow, that's incredible! It's actually tiny island (I was amazed when I found out that it has less than 2 km2!). In Croatia we have islands with banned traffic that are 5x larger (Silba for instance). And this road is hilarious


----------



## Coccodrillo

Around Cortina d'Ampezzo they are laying optical fibre under many roads, including those over the passes, not just town streets. But they are doing it the cheap way, by excavating a long and narrow trench with machines like this one. The result is an esthetically ugly and uncomfortable to drive strip of new asphalt. On old sections already full with patches is supportable, but on sections with asphalt laid just last year...well, that's just really ugly.


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ These are works probably made by "Open Fiber" to connect all Italy with FTTH optical fiber. It'a programm of central government. They are destroying many roads around Italy with this cheap method, exept in those cases where an exisiting cable shaft exists (seldom, but it happens).
In reality the work to be completed shall consist also in repaving a 2m wide strip around the trench, but it's not always done, and when done often with low quality. Before repaving, the trench is layed to settle for many monthes. Apparently, in Italy we do not know the use tamper machines.😠


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Paving and road marking works are underway at Genova:


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> Paving and road marking works are underway at Genova:


Quite amazing to have such a massive brigde replaced in two years after the collapse. In Germany, that would have taken 12 years, I believe.


----------



## g.spinoza

MattiG said:


> Quite amazing to have such a massive brigde replaced in two years after the collapse. In Germany, that would have taken 12 years, I believe.


Normally, in Italy too.
Remember that there are some bridges, collapsed many years ago, which are still unfixed...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Most of the construction work took place in only one year. The bridge collapsed in August 2018 but the remains weren't demolished until June / summer 2019.


----------



## legolego

The new bridge will be inaugurated on the 3rd August by Sergio Mattarella at 18:30 o'clock.
There will be an air-show by Frecce Tricolore, and it's probable that they will draw the San Giorgio's cross in the sky during the show


----------



## legolego

walking on the bridge...









A passeggio sul nuovo ponte di Genova


A cinque giorni dall'inaugurazione, ecco il nuovo ponte di Genova. Ultimi ritocchi tra cui i nuovi cartelli stradali. Poi sarà aperto al traffico. Videoservizio di Andrea Leoni




video.repubblica.it


----------



## brick84

source: Il nuovo ponte di Genova 'San Giorgio' come non l'avete mai visto - Primopiano


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So the name is still 'Polcevera' on the signs.


----------



## g.spinoza

I don't understand this picture. It seems that the carriageway reduces from 2 to 1 lane, with a merger on the right and immediately after, another merger.
If so, it is the worst design I've ever seen.


----------



## brick84

^^

Maybe it is so because before the following tunnel:


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ No, it's not. Because the tunnel is on the western side of the bridge, and the problem issued by g.spinoza is on eastern side.


----------



## brick84

*A19 Palermo-Catania*

viaduct "Himera", collapsed in 2015, reopened to traffic yesterday.


----------



## brick84




----------



## Uppsala

brick84 said:


>



Very nice! I think this new bridge looks much nicer than the old one did.


----------



## Coccodrillo

g.spinoza said:


> I don't understand this picture. It seems that the carriageway reduces from 2 to 1 lane, with a merger on the right and immediately after, another merger.
> If so, it is the worst design I've ever seen.


The "first merge" actually doesn't exist, as the single lane from the foreground comes from the city end of A7 and there aren't other roads leading there.

The second merge, actually the only merge, is the lane coming from A7-north.

Near that end of the old bridge there was a sort of abandoned depot for maintenance equipment, so it is likely that the right "carriageway" of the photo above is just an empty space, usable also as depot, built for static and/or aesthetic reasons.









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.ch


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Preparations for the inauguration party are ongoing. The bridge deck is lined with St. George's crosses.


----------



## intersezioni

g.spinoza said:


> I don't understand this picture. It seems that the carriageway reduces from 2 to 1 lane, with a merger on the right and immediately after, another merger.
> If so, it is the worst design I've ever seen.







they have kept the original one-lane track coming from GENOVA OVEST towards Ventimiglia, in the video you can see the lane that from the GENOVA OVEST tollgate connects to the left lane towards Ventimiglia.
I also don't understand the second lane towards the mountains


----------



## IThomas

New video by WeBuild (Salini Impregilo): "Genoa's new bridge: let's build the future"





***
*Genoa's new bridge puts spotlight on how Italy can manage recovery*



> *Just two years after part of Genoa’s Morandi bridge collapsed killing 43 people, a new structure opens in its place on Monday, an achievement in stark contrast to stalled infrastructure projects elsewhere in Italy. *(...)
> 
> Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte, who will attend the inauguration of the new Genova-San Giorgio viaduct said it would be a “symbol of a new Italy rising up again.” (...)
> 
> Under heavy pressure to address the neglect which caused the disaster, the government pushed through an emergency decree to sweep aside red tape.


***
This evening, a special docufilm will be broadcast nationwide on tv channel Focus.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=290159058717911


----------



## sponge_bob

I am not surprised that Renzo Piano, an architect, took the bridge in Genoa on. His old partner Peter Rice was the maestro di tutti maestri of structural engineering and some of it must have rubbed off on Renzo,


----------



## IThomas

Italian lighting company iGuzzini for Genoa's new bridge





From the collapse of Morandi bridge to the construction of the San Giorgio bridge





The bridge as seen from above. Source: Finance Polce - Genoa Dept.





Genoa right now, minutes before the inauguration. Pic from Twitter


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Normally, in Italy too.
> Remember that there are some bridges, collapsed many years ago, which are still unfixed...


Himera viaduct on A19 in Sicily collapsed in 2015 and reopened to traffic only few days ago.
And A2 (then A3) had a short 1+1 section near Lagonegro lasting from 1972 to 2016 as a section collapsed (only 5 years after opening) and had never been reconstructed until the whole motorway had been upgraded!


----------



## Zaz965

it got gorgeous


----------



## Uppsala

Are there pictures already now where you can see the new bridge in Genova open with traffic and everything?


----------



## g.spinoza

Uppsala said:


> Are there pictures already now where you can see the new bridge in Genova open with traffic and everything?


It is not yet open for traffic. It will be tomorrow, not sure the time.


----------



## IThomas

The Tricolor Arrows over Genoa: in memory of the 43 victims and for the inauguration of the Ponte San Giorgio









Renzo Piano's beautiful speech


----------



## legolego

Very impressed about Frecce Tricolori: airplane wings are very narrow each other 
Renzo Piano: a real "old" gentleman

President of Republic Mattarella: visibly felt and sober; i feel like he's really "my president"

Religious authority : i hope they will never partecipate more over an infrastrucrutral inauguration...really "unwatchable". I don't know if in other countries they bless a bridge...a road...and so on


----------



## MacOlej

Blessing new roads, bridges, etc. is very common in Poland (unfortunately).


----------



## g.spinoza

Stelvio Pass (~2750 m) woke up this morning under 20 cm of fresh snow:


----------



## g.spinoza

Gavia Pass road, meanwhile, has been closed due to a landslide on its southern slope:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The bridge has been cleared, seems ready to go.


----------



## g.spinoza

Aaaand... It's open:









Genova, il ponte San Giorgio aperto al traffico: il transito delle prime auto


Le immagini durante l’attraversamento del viadotto sul Polcevera




video.corriere.it


----------



## ChrisZwolle




----------



## intersezioni




----------



## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> Val Ferret road, which is a tributary of Aosta Valley (the last one on the right before the Monte Bianco tunnel) is closed and the whole valley has been evacuated due to the danger posed by Planpincieux Glacier. The glacier is closely monitored because 500,000 m^3 of it - between elevations of 2600 and 2800 m - are moving up to 90 cm a day.
> 
> A - rather short - timelapse shows the movement of the glacier during the past month of July


Val Ferret road also has been reopened :









Cessa l'allerta per il ghiacciaio Planpincieux , riapre Val Ferret - Valle d'Aosta


Dopo 'il rientro nei parametri di rischio' riguardante il ghiacciaio di Planpincieux, il sindaco di Courmayeur Stefano Miserocchi ha riaperto la Val Ferret, revocando la precedente ordinanza di chiusura: 'Evacuazione era necessaria. Troppo allarmismo'. Danni irreparabili al turismo, albergi...




www.ansa.it


----------



## g.spinoza

Behold the fabulous new side-switching cycle-pedestrian path in Piazza Statuto, Turin:


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> It was reported to be due to motorists slowing down to take pictures:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Code su Ponte S. Giorgio a Genova, automobilisti fanno foto - Liguria
> 
> 
> Curiosi e traffico intenso hanno creato disagi al traffico. Genitori di una vittima: 'La festa aumenta il nostro dolore'. Vanno avanti le indagini, la procura di Genova ha acquisito le due lettere di contestazione che l'ispettore Placido Migliorino ha inviato ad Aspi (ANSA)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ansa.it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Genova, code su ponte San Giorgio: traffico e rallentamenti per foto
> 
> 
> Leggi su Sky TG24 l'articolo Genova, code sul ponte San Giorgio: al traffico si aggiunge chi rallenta per fare foto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tg24.sky.it


Idiots. This behaviour may results in dangerous pile-up style accidents.


----------



## italystf

Roundabout for cyclists in Bibione:








Google Maps


Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ Just seen also in Bozen/Bolzano


----------



## g.spinoza

The project of Messina Strait fixed link is resurfacing, this time in the form of an underwater tunnel: Prime Minister Conte hinted at it few days ago.

It seems that one year ago, projects for this kind of link were presented at the Chamber of Deputies:





.

It has been proposed as it is much less expensive than the bridge, with less engineering challenges, faster to build. Critics say it is unsafe due to the seismic activity in the area - probably forgetting that such tunnels exist in Japan as well.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Forgive me for not watching a 30 minute video in a language I'm not fluent in. Maybe some of this is answered in the video.

I found these bathymetric maps of the Strait of Messina.

A great challenge is the depth, while tunnels can go under -200 meters, a combined rail/road tunnel becomes problematic due to the difference in the maximum grades allowed. I'm trying to think of a combined road/rail tunnel that goes under a significant and deep body of water but can't think of any off the top of my head.

A road tunnel can have grades up to 5-6% without much problems (Norway has some in the 7-8% range but finds these more dangerous). A railway grade may be in the 1-2% range, which greatly extends the length of a tunnel to overcome a certain altitude difference.

Simplified: to drop 200 meters, a road tunnel at 5% needs a 4 km ramp. A rail tunnel at 2% would need to be 10 kilometers long to reach that depth (and then go up the other side of course). This is more complex if the surrounding area is mountainous, both above and under water. A steep underwater slope requires a longer approach (or curved approach) to reach a certain depth close to the shoreline.

A road tunnel under the Strait of Messina is likely to be more feasible than a rail / combined tunnel. Unless perhaps they use some kind of rack railway technology. But this would be difficult to integrate with other rail infrastructure.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Forgive me for not watching a 30 minute video in a language I'm not fluent in. Maybe some of this is answered in the video.


It was not supposed to be viewed, just for reference. It IS in my language and I just viewed 3 minutes of it.



> I found these bathymetric maps of the Strait of Messina.
> 
> A great challenge is the depth[...]


Here (an Italian language article under a paywall): 




__





Tunnel sotto lo Stretto di Messina, ecco il progetto sul tavolo di Conte | Rep







rep.repubblica.it





they say they can dig ramps from Messina of around 1% and be 200 m under Ganzirri (the tip of Sicily). With a slightly different design, and 1.5% ramps, you could be 260 m under Ganzirri and 290 m below at the center of the Strait. On the other side, with similar slopes, you could reach ground at Pentimele (North of Reggio Calabria). The expected length of the tunnel will be 34 km, of which 3.5 under the sea. This length is calculated with curvature radius of 2500 m which could allow for 200 km/h trains.

The road tunnel would begin at junction Giostra on the Sicilian A20 and connect to Calabrian A2 at Catona (halfway between Reggio and Villa S Giovanni), with 16 km of tunnel.


----------



## bortttt

ChrisZwolle said:


> Forgive me for not watching a 30 minute video in a language I'm not fluent in. Maybe some of this is answered in the video.
> 
> I found these bathymetric maps of the Strait of Messina.
> 
> A great challenge is the depth, while tunnels can go under -200 meters, a combined rail/road tunnel becomes problematic due to the difference in the maximum grades allowed. I'm trying to think of a combined road/rail tunnel that goes under a significant and deep body of water but can't think of any off the top of my head.
> 
> A road tunnel can have grades up to 5-6% without much problems (Norway has some in the 7-8% range but finds these more dangerous). A railway grade may be in the 1-2% range, which greatly extends the length of a tunnel to overcome a certain altitude difference.
> 
> Simplified: to drop 200 meters, a road tunnel at 5% needs a 4 km ramp. A rail tunnel at 2% would need to be 10 kilometers long to reach that depth (and then go up the other side of course). This is more complex if the surrounding area is mountainous, both above and under water. A steep underwater slope requires a longer approach (or curved approach) to reach a certain depth close to the shoreline.
> 
> A road tunnel under the Strait of Messina is likely to be more feasible than a rail / combined tunnel. Unless perhaps they use some kind of rack railway technology. But this would be difficult to integrate with other rail infrastructure.


1) that video talks about an Archimedes tunnel, so not under the ocean but in the middle of the water.
2) the project that is now being talked about should be a tunnel under the earth and under the sea
2) the solution will most likely be helical ramps with a nice radius


----------



## pccvspw999

I would like to see the suspension bridge. It would be a landmark, a testimony of what mankind is able to do if it will. A tunnel is invisible, just 10 minutes drive, and no impressions, nothing to tell or to show.


----------



## g.spinoza

So it was the wrong video after all...


----------



## MichiH

I would like to see a tunnel. It would not destroy the landscape, traffic can safely transit independent of the weather (e.g. storm). Nothing to show off (waste of money) like the illuminated bridge in Genova.


----------



## MattiG

pccvspw999 said:


> I would like to see the suspension bridge. It would be a landmark, a testimony of what mankind is able to do if it will. A tunnel is invisible, just 10 minutes drive, and no impressions, nothing to tell or to show.


Using the current technology, that is a mission impossible.

Such a bridge would need a main span of about three kilometers. That might be possible (the currrent record is 1991 meters: Akashi-Kaikyo bridge in Japan) for making a road bridge.

The requirement for a train connection is the painpoint. In the bridge industry, there is a rule of thumb that suspension bridges are not for trains. Because the bridge deck is supported by cables, the structure must be pretty lightweight. Usually, the structure is flexible as an aircraft wing (and and equpped with spoilers to prevent it behaving like a wing). A locomotice may be 2-3 times heavier than a truck. It would create substantially higher static and dynamic loads, and those should be compensated by a heavier structure. Trains are designed to run on a solid trackbed, and a track rolling and pitching is no-go.

There were a few suspension bridges in the early life of railways. They were removed when the weight of trains increased, and were replaced by more rigid structures.

There are some double-decker suspension bridges in China, for both road and rail. Their deck structure is quite heavyweight, and the spans are shorter, about 1000 meters maximum.


----------



## pccvspw999

MattiG said:


> Using the current technology, that is a mission impossible.
> 
> Such a bridge would need a main span of about three kilometers. That might be possible (the currrent record is 1991 meters: Akashi-Kaikyo bridge in Japan) for making a road bridge.
> 
> The requirement for a train connection is the painpoint. In the bridge industry, there is a rule of thumb that suspension bridges are not for trains. Because the bridge deck is supported by cables, the structure must be pretty lightweight. Usually, the structure is flexible as an aircraft wing (and and equpped with spoilers to prevent it behaving like a wing). A locomotice may be 2-3 times heavier than a truck. It would create substantially higher static and dynamic loads, and those should be compensated by a heavier structure. Trains are designed to run on a solid trackbed, and a track rolling and pitching is no-go.
> 
> There were a few suspension bridges in the early life of railways. They were removed when the weight of trains increased, and were replaced by more rigid structures.
> 
> There are some double-decker suspension bridges in China, for both road and rail. Their deck structure is quite heavyweight, and the spans are shorter, about 1000 meters maximum.


Yes, that’s what I also knew before this bridge has been studied and designed for over 20 years: and it seems to be feasable. It will be massive indeed: the deck is designed to be over 50m wide, with three traffic lanes (traffic will run left-handed to keep lorries and busses in the inner lanes) per direction and 2 rail tracks in the middle.
On the other hand a tunnel 120-150m below sea level will require 10-15km long rail access tunnels and it will take decades to be constructed, and 10-15 years to be designed (afaik there are far less design studies as for the suspension bridge).
The suspension bridge has already a definitve and an executive project dated 2011.
Here You may find interesting informations about the project, but only in italian. Sorry.

BTW: a floating tunnel would have even more issues than the suspension bridge. It would have to withstand intense sea currents which may require even more flexibility.


----------



## Shenkey

And a floating tunnel?


----------



## Suburbanist

Th3


Shenkey said:


> And a floating tunnel?


Highly problematic for the location. It is one of the straits with the strongest currents in the World, and a very busy shipping lane as well.


----------



## italystf

Floating tunnels have never been built anywhere in the world, so we're talking about science fiction.

Such a plan was even imagined in 1969 (!), but you can even find ideas of tunnels across the Atlantic or human colonies on Mars, so not everything that had been conceived is realistic.


http://www.daps.unina.it/doc/doc_new/Brochure_Sijlab.pdf


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The offshore industry uses techniques similar to what a submerged floating tunnel would require, but so far such a tunnel has never been built. The Norwegians are looking into this option seriously for some fjord crossings that are too wide for bridges and too deep for tunnels. 

Another potential scheme could be a combination of a floating pontoon bridge and one or two large bridges near the coast for shipping clearance. A bridge like that is planned in Norway and one medium sized floating / cable-stayed bridge has already been built. 

A more challenging but potentially promising scheme is a floating cable-stayed bridge with multiple spans. These would be anchored to the seabad similar to oil rigs, and the cable-stayed structure could allow for a road + rail bridge, which as explained above, is almost impossible for suspension bridges.


----------



## brick84

MichiH said:


> I would like to see a tunnel. It would not *destroy the landscape*, traffic can safely transit independent of the weather (e.g. storm). Nothing to show off (waste of money) like the illuminated bridge in Genova.


Destroy the landscape??





























According to the project, the bridge could resist winds over 210 km/h and earthquake by 7.2 Richter.

*The project is READY. Let's start!*


----------



## legolego

g.spinoza said:


> Such an infrastructure with 1 lane per tube... absurd.


The primary "end-point" is to improve the security in case of accident on the tunnel. There are many studies declaring that the first problem in case of accident is related to the rescue operation by rescue vehicles . In fact, having a 2nd tunnel is basic to permit a *rapid and secure* rescue operation.

Probably the choice b) is better:

a) " existing Mono-Tube in Two Way + new tube only for security vehicles"

b) "existing Mono-Tube in ìOne Way + new tube in One Way, and both oh them useable in case of emercency closing one or the other of two"


----------



## g.spinoza

legolego said:


> The primary "end-point" is to improve the security in case of accident on the tunnel. There are many studies declaring that the first problem in case of accident is related to the rescue operation by rescue vehicles . In fact, having a 2nd tunnel is basic to permit a *rapid and secure* rescue operation.
> 
> Probably the choice b) is better:
> 
> a) " existing Mono-Tube in Two Way + new tube only for security vehicles"
> 
> b) "existing Mono-Tube in ìOne Way + new tube in One Way, and both oh them useable in case of emercency closing one or the other of two"


Or,
c) first tube with 2 lanes in one direction and second tube with 2 lanes in the other direction.

Gran Sasso tunnel is almost as long as Frejus, with 130 km/h limit and nobody cries about that.


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ Just wait until a major accident occurs in Gran Sasso tunnel, than You’ll hear hundreds crying and blaming for insufficient safety
Are two lanes per direction necessary in Frejus tunnel?


----------



## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> ^^ Just wait until a major accident occurs in Gran Sasso tunnel, than You’ll hear hundreds crying and blaming for insufficient safety


There already have been accidents:








Terrore sotto il traforo del Gran Sasso: sperona le auto, danni e feriti


L'AQUILA - Sotto la galleria del Gran Sasso, ha preso di mira le auto che lo precedevano, provocando alcuni incidenti con feriti e danni, fino a quando egli stesso non è rimasto...




www.ilmessaggero.it












A24: incidente mortale prima dell'ingresso del traforo


Un incidente stradale si è verificato sull'A24 prima dell'ingresso del traforo. Nell'impatto tra un mezzo pesante e un'auto muoiono un uomo e un cane.




www.rete8.it





But then, major accidents occur on motorways outside tunnels all the time, and it doesn't mean we should downgrade these stretchs to one lane per direction.


> Are to lanes per direction necessary in Frejus tunnel?


Not with current prices.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

pccvspw999 said:


> Are two lanes per direction necessary in Frejus tunnel?


The traffic volume in the Fréjus Tunnel is only 4,900 per day. Unlike the Mont Blanc, there is also almost no peak holiday traffic that causes congestion. 

So from a traffic volume point of view, four lanes are not necessary. It should be noted that the easternmost portion of A43 is also a partial single lane autoroute. A43 doesn't have continuous four lanes until near Saint-Michel-de-Maurienne.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> The traffic volume in the Fréjus Tunnel is only 4,900 per day. Unlike the Mont Blanc, there is also almost no peak holiday traffic that causes congestion.


Unlike Mont Blanc Tunnel, Frejus has a free alternative, open year-round: the Monginevro Pass. They don't follow the same route but it can be used for going to Grenoble, for instance. During summers, you can use the Moncenisio Pass, which follows the same route.


----------



## brick84

*Campania *

_SS 162 Dir. "del Centro Direzionale" - Napoli_







__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2800064296928379


----------



## pccvspw999

Se fossi in ANAS non farei filmati “prima-dopo” per le situazioni mostrate: non dovrebbero lasciare tracce della vergogna del “prima”, indegno per un paese civile.


----------



## Brussels1

pccvspw999 said:


> Se fossi in ANAS non farei filmati “prima-dopo” per le situazioni mostrate: non dovrebbero lasciare tracce della vergogna del “prima”, indegno per un paese civile.


In English please. This is an English forum.


----------



## pccvspw999

Sorry, I was misleaded by the italian description.
I wrote that ANAS would be good recommended not to publish those “before-after“ videos in order not to eternalize the “before” what is ashaming for a civil nation.


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> Such an infrastructure with 1 lane per tube... absurd.


Our Pelješac bridge is getting tunnel friend


----------



## Suburbanist

The Gran Sasso Tunnels, although not fit to the highest standards found on Mt.-Blánc or Fréjus, have 2 tubes already. That makes it easier to retrofit it with new safety features without that much excavation. The Mt.-Blanc retrofit was so absurdely expensive in part because excavating a second bore was not considered at the time (its major fire happened in 1998 IIRC, just a few years after the Alpine International convention with its moratorium on new heavy-goods vehicular transalpine capacity).

The Gran Sasso tunnel does have the infamous access to the nuclear physics research facility, which restricts through traffic to 1-lane for several hundred meters on the southeast-bound direction.


----------



## Suburbanist

In any case, regarding tunnel safety in absence of major works like new tubes, especially on older narrower tunnels, I think there is a bunch of stuff that helps:


agressive no-tailgaiting enforcement, with cameras and fines, and side bright RED lights to mark minimum distance
a ban on lane change on more curvy tunnels
aggressive 'surround-lighting', which requires much less power now with LEDs (in the past, too much lighting would imply too much heat let out by reflectors, with some fire dangers brought by the cabling system itself), as it has been shown that drivers eyes are just not fit to get a sudden drop of lumens in a matter of seconds (regardless of transitioning light at the end of long tunnels).
truck overtaking ban, possibly also with mandatory use of right lane only.

Mandatory automatic emergency braking systems on trucks also help prevent tunnel pile-ups (and pile-ups elsewhere). Truck modern brakes are quite efficient, but they need to be slammed fast, much faster than distracted drivers can summon then in an emergency situation.

I also wonder whether modern heat detectors could be fit near long-tunnel entrances. All major 'historical' fires in the Alps originated from fires that spread to flammable cargo (if I am not mistaken, the Mt.-Blanc fire started with a margarine cargo fire that started from overheated braking systems).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Severe weather in the Alps have resulted in massive runoff in the rivers. Several major roads are closed, including A4 and SS 33. The Sesia River has flooded. Some of the major lakes are also flooding.

I couldn't find good photos of those roads, but this is the Torino - Milano railroad:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1312342147635372033
There are also reports of local bridge collapses and washouts:









Il maltempo flagella la provincia: un disperso in Valsesia per il crollo della strada tra Doccio e Crevola







www.lastampa.it


----------



## brick84

*A19 Palermo-Catania*

overview from Enna


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A bridge of SS 142 over the Sesia River has collapsed at Gattinara.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1312380787841470464


----------



## g.spinoza

Many more bridge collapsed.
This one is in Aosta Valley:









Sesia valley:









French Roya valley:









Gesso valley:









Vermenagna valley (near Tenda tunnel):









Tanaro valley (near Garessio):









Cervo valley (Biella):


----------



## italystf

17 people are missing after the collapse of the bridge on the Sesia river between Romagnano and Gattinara, Piedmont.  








Maltempo Piemonte, crolla il ponte tra Romagnano e Gattinara sul fiume Sesia. I dispersi sono 22


Gravi i danni causati dal maltempo in Piemonte. Nel Vercellese il ponte che collegava Gallinara a Romagnano è crollato a seguito di una piena del fiume...




www.fanpage.it




.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> 17 people are missing after the collapse of the bridge on the Sesia river between Romagnano and Gattinara, Piedmont.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maltempo Piemonte, crolla il ponte tra Romagnano e Gattinara sul fiume Sesia. I dispersi sono 22
> 
> 
> Gravi i danni causati dal maltempo in Piemonte. Nel Vercellese il ponte che collegava Gallinara a Romagnano è crollato a seguito di una piena del fiume...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fanpage.it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


No, the missing people are all in the Roya/Vermenagna (Colle di Tenda) valleys area.









Alluvione nel Cuneese e in Valsesia, un morto e un disperso. Salvati i turisti tedeschi. Mattarella a Cirio: "Sono vicino al Piemonte"


La vittima caduta con l'auto nel Sesia dopo il crollo di un ponte, salvo il fratello. Si cerca un malgaro finito in un fiume tra le valli Vermenagna e Roya…




torino.repubblica.it


----------



## MichiH

italystf said:


> 17 people are missing after the collapse of the bridge on the Sesia river between Romagnano and Gattinara, Piedmont.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maltempo Piemonte, crolla il ponte tra Romagnano e Gattinara sul fiume Sesia. I dispersi sono 22
> 
> 
> Gravi i danni causati dal maltempo in Piemonte. Nel Vercellese il ponte che collegava Gallinara a Romagnano è crollato a seguito di una piena del fiume...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fanpage.it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Here? OpenStreetMap

It's reported that the road was closed but reopened just one hour before it collapsed.


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> Here? OpenStreetMap
> 
> It's reported that the road was closed but reopened just one hour before it collapsed.


Yes, that's the place. But it seems nobody was involved there.


----------



## g.spinoza

Another bridge has collapsed, on SS45 in Trebbia Valley:











EDIT: Here's the place








Relation: ‪Ottone‬ (‪43361‬) | OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> A bridge of SS 142 over the Sesia River has collapsed at Gattinara.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1312380787841470464


I drove over that bridge few years ago 😮


----------



## pccvspw999

I’m wondering: we shall adopt as a compulsory inspection framework the DIN 1076. It’s a german norm, bit it’s almost 90 years old and continously updated. In Germany it is not compulsory, it is only a recomandation, but jurysprudence made it almost inevitable.
In Italy we have two problems:

The law says that every owner has to have an inspection framework, but howmany do it right now?
We still don’t know who has the task to do the inspections as many bridged aren’t clearly assigned to an owner.
The province of South Tirol, for example, made his inspection framework, but it is clearly said that adopting something similar to DIN1076 would be too expensive. I cannot accept this argument as money shall not make any difference in matters regarding safety, and I don’t think that german engineers made their DIN1076 in that way if they don’t think it is stricktly necessary to grant safety.

For those of You who understand german I would suggest to watch this transmission. It’s not for engineers, but for common understanding people. Simple but rigorous.


----------



## bortttt

pccvspw999 said:


> I’m wondering: we shall adopt as a compulsory inspection framework the DIN 1076. It’s a german norm, bit it’s almost 90 years old and continously updated. In Germany it is not compulsory, it is only a recomandation, but jurysprudence made it almost inevitable.
> In Italy we have two problems:
> 
> The law says that every owner has to have an inspection framework, but howmany do it right now?
> We still don’t know who has the task to do the inspections as many bridged aren’t clearly assigned to an owner.
> The province of South Tirol, for example, made his inspection framework, but it is clearly said that adopting something similar to DIN1076 would be too expensive. I cannot accept this argument as money shall not make any difference in matters regarding safety, and I don’t think that german engineers made their DIN1076 in that way if they don’t think it is stricktly necessary to grant safety.
> 
> For those of You who understand german I would suggest to watch this transmission. It’s not for engineers, but for common understanding people. Simple but rigorous.


The problem with the German standard is that it requires a lot of work to adapt the viaducts before it can be applied (it requires that the viaducts are 100% inspectionable, and also anti-seismic if they are long, which is very difficult in Italy).

The high adige tries to comply with the german standards but without having to make an initial adjustment investment


----------



## pccvspw999

The problem still exists in Germany with older bridges, but it has to be done however! If You cannot inspect the bridge than You can’t grant it’s safety and You have to close it, with no execptions. On the other side there are nowadays non intrusive inspection methods than may help. But the main factor is: inspection, inspection, inspection!
It’s only an excuse for not doing what needs to be done! You do not need to adapt viaducts and bridges immediately, but You have to inspect them as rigorous and deep as You are allowed to do.
It is hypocrit to say:”a make a easier inspection framework because I cannot inspect all bridges accordingly.” Sorry, but this way of reasoning is unacceptable by any means.

And this is another problem here in Italy: we find an execption to the rules, and make a rule out of it.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Another bridge has collapsed, on SS45 in Trebbia Valley:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: Here's the place
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Relation: ‪Ottone‬ (‪43361‬) | OpenStreetMap
> 
> 
> OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.openstreetmap.org


How old was that bridge? According to the design it looks like very old, probably from 19th century or early 20th century.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> How old was that bridge? According to the design it looks like very old, probably from 19th century or early 20th century.


Second half of 19th Century


----------



## Coccodrillo

For the The Fréjus tunnel it was initially planned to build just a small diametre safety tunnel (big enough for an ambulance running in one direction, but not for fire trucks or for two emergency vehicles crossing each other). It was later decided to build it larger so as to allow the crossing at very low speed of two fire trucks going in opposite directions. It was finally decided to open it to traffic, but keeping that intermediate dimension, which doesn't allow two running lanes.

Most road tunnels have two lanes, there are a few single lane road tunnels, but "one and a half lane" tunnels are quite rare. To guess what such a tunnel looks like one can look at the Kirchenwald-Lopper tunnel in Switzerland: Google Maps

Another such tunnel being built is the new Tenda road tunnel. The original one was built in 1882, and has a quite rail-like appearance, in the sense that is seems more high than wide, like most single track railway tunnels: Google Maps

It is now operated with alternate traffic although originally it was two-way. There a new one and a half lane tube is being built, after which the old tunnel will be enlarged (to increase clearance) and made similar to the new tube, so as to have one lane per direction. As the whole road will continue to be the same (except that 4 hairpin turns on the French side will be replaced by 2 better ones) there is no need to have more lanes in the tunnel. They could just have built a new two lane tube and kept the existing one unchanged as a safety tunnel, but evidently they preferred to split directions to increase safety a bit more.


----------



## Suburbanist

The Munt-La-Sera tunnel is also 1 1/2 lane wide, right?


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> The Munt-La-Sera tunnel is also 1 1/2 lane wide, right?


I guess it's just 1 lane wide:


----------



## Coccodrillo

As g.spinozza said, it has a single lane, with some caverns originally built for crossigns but now used as emergency bays.

It was build as a service tunnel for the construction of the dam, like many others in the Alps. It is still owned by the electricity company, and that's why it is only one of two Swiss tolled main roads (excluding car carrying train shuttles and ferries). The other is the Great St. Bernard tunnel.









Munt la Schera Tunnel - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## legolego

legolego said:


> Work in progress on the new "SS21 Col di Tenda" International Tunnel [F-I]
> 
> (from national forum)


about Tenda Tunnel on SS 21

the old tunnel's access road as been deatroyed by a landslide occured during this heavy-rainy couple of days :










It will take about 1 year to rebuild it.


----------



## g.spinoza

legolego said:


> about Tenda Tunnel on SS 21
> 
> the old tunnel's access road as been deatroyed by a landslide occured during this heavy-rainy couple of days :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It will take about 1 year to rebuild it.


I already posted in French thread since it's on the French side


----------



## italystf

Those recent photos from Piedmont, Liguria, and SE France are truly scary.
It reminds me the August 2003 flood in northern Friuli, when several kilometers of SS13 simply vanished in mud and water.
It's incredible and terrible to think how much the territory and infrastructure are vulnerable to bad weather (we're not talking of earthquakes, tsunami, or tornados).

Series of photos that I still remember after 17 years.


----------



## legolego

take a look inside the old Tenda tunnel, after the recent floods






the concrete walls appear ti be severely damaged


----------



## Uppsala

The new bridge in Genova has now been in operation for a few months. The problems that arose when the old bridge collapsed and which then followed as long as one waited for a new one to open are gone now.

But how is it going now? The bridge is in operation. Does this work well? Are people happy now with the new bridge?


----------



## italystf

Uppsala said:


> The new bridge in Genova has now been in operation for a few months. The problems that arose when the old bridge collapsed and which then followed as long as one waited for a new one to open are gone now.
> 
> But how is it going now? The bridge is in operation. Does this work well? Are people happy now with the new bridge?


Some complained that the curve on the western approach of the bridge has a too small radius for modern standards, but it was like that before (the motorway opened in 1967).
Rebuilding the motorway to eliminate the curve would have been very expensive and time-consuming, considering that the area is both mountanious and urbanized.


----------



## g.spinoza

A new junction ("Scafati-Angri") has been opened today on A3. It will connect directly to the newly built SS 268 "del Vesuvio", a road that serves as eastern bypass of the famous volcano.









Scafati-Angri. Falsa partenza per il nuovo casello autostradale A3. - Scafati


Con nota odierna l’Anas comunica che la prevista apertura al traffico dello svincolo di Angri continua a leggere




www.scafati.info













OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> A new junction ("Scafati-Angri") has been opened today on A3  A3.


edit



> It will connect directly to the newly built SS 268 "del Vesuvio", a road that serves as eastern bypass of the famous volcano.


This is welcome news for local traffic. Another missing link in the metro area where most of the work had been completed and let unfinished for years (or decades) now finished... like the missing/unfinished viaducts on northbound ex-SS87NC


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It appears that the bridge itself is still standing, but that the embankment around the bridgehead has been washed away.









Maltempo a Frosinone, crolla un ponte a Picinisco


A Picinisco, in provincia di Frosinone, una frana ha causato il crollo di un ponte. Un'auto è finita nel fiume ma non ci sono stati feriti o dispersi. Sul post…




video.lastampa.it


----------



## Sicilian Driver

*Sicily, A18 motorway from Catania to Giardini Naxos (ME)*
video showing the A18 motorway "Messina-Catania" from Catania to Giardini Naxos (ME) in the east coast of sicily:






noutable elements in the video:
0:22 Tangenziale di Catania 0:23 svincolo Catania nord A18dir 0:25 inizio autostrada A18 Messina-Catania e svincolo "Paesi Etnei" 0:30 barriera autostradale "Catania nord-S.Gregorio" 1:30 area servizio Aci S. Antonio est 2:20 svincolo di Acireale 4:00 svincolo di Giarre 7:00 svincolo di Fiumefreddo di Sicilia 8:20 ponte "Alcantara" e ingresso nelle città metropolitana di Messina 8:25 area di servizio Calatabiano est 8:40 svincolo di Giardini-Naxos


----------



## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

update works for new lots from Rosolini to Ispica/Pozzallo
















































*


































*

by Ash666


----------



## g.spinoza

Bassano Ovest - Breganze stretch (13.5 km) of SPV "Pedemontana Veneta" scheduled to be opened next 20th November.
From the Italian language thread.



bortttt said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/BassanoMobilita/posts/186477116307454
> 
> 
> 
> Foto prese dalla pagina FB di Gruppo Adige Bitumi
> View attachment 642069
> View attachment 642070
> View attachment 642071
> View attachment 642072
> View attachment 642073


----------



## tomis3

Sicilian Driver said:


> *Sicily, A18 motorway from Catania to Giardini Naxos (ME)*
> video showing the A18 motorway "Messina-Catania" from Catania to Giardini Naxos (ME) in the east coast of sicily:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> noutable elements in the video:
> 0:22 Tangenziale di Catania 0:23 svincolo Catania nord A18dir 0:25 inizio autostrada A18 Messina-Catania e svincolo "Paesi Etnei" 0:30 barriera autostradale "Catania nord-S.Gregorio" 1:30 area servizio Aci S. Antonio est 2:20 svincolo di Acireale 4:00 svincolo di Giarre 7:00 svincolo di Fiumefreddo di Sicilia 8:20 ponte "Alcantara" e ingresso nelle città metropolitana di Messina 8:25 area di servizio Calatabiano est 8:40 svincolo di Giardini-Naxos


Nice video...what song is that?


----------



## Verso

I have a question: how do you get by truck weighing over 7.5 tons from Udine/Tarvisio to Fusine / Kranjska Gora (SLO)?








Google Zemljevidi


V Google Zemljevidih poiščite lokalna podjetja, si oglejte zemljevide in pridobite navodila za vožnjo.




goo.gl


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> I have a question: how do you get by truck weighing over 7.5 tons from Udine/Tarvisio to Fusine / Kranjska Gora (SLO)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Zemljevidi
> 
> 
> V Google Zemljevidih poiščite lokalna podjetja, si oglejte zemljevide in pridobite navodila za vožnjo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goo.gl


I guess by taking the next exit at the roundabout, driving on SS13 bypassing the town, then getting on SS54 a couple of km ahead.


----------



## Verso

^^ It doesn't look suitable for heavy trucks (if you mean this road).


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> ^^ It doesn't look suitable for heavy trucks (if you mean this road).


Then I guess









da Via Alpi Giulie, 18 a Kolodvorska ulica







www.google.it


----------



## keber

Actually this is the fastest route for trucks and it is not forbidden (at least not with traffic signs), mostly wide enough








od Trbiž do Via Giuseppe Verdi, 29







goo.gl





With some easy reconstructions here and there it could be used as a southern bypass of Tarvisio


----------



## Verso

I'm watching your links on phone and they show the same route for cars through the middle of Tarvisio. I guess I have to open them on PC.


----------



## bortttt

Using Via Priesnig? but there is the limit to the height at 4 mt


----------



## keber

Verso said:


> I'm watching your links on phone and they show the same route for cars through the middle of Tarvisio. I guess I have to open them on PC.


Here you have:










bortttt said:


> Using Via Priesnig? but there is the limit to the height at 4 mt


Standard trucks and trailers are 4.0 meters high or lower.








Weights and dimensions of road vehicles in the EU


The White Paper on transport policy (2011) set the goal of reducing greenhouse gas emissions from transport by 60% by...




epthinktank.eu




If necessary, adjusting the road under ski overpass should be relatively easy to do for 20 or 30 cm


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> Then I guess
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> da Via Alpi Giulie, 18 a Kolodvorska ulica
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.it


Through Austria? 



keber said:


> Actually this is the fastest route for trucks and it is not forbidden (at least not with traffic signs), mostly wide enough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> od Trbiž do Via Giuseppe Verdi, 29
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goo.gl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With some easy reconstructions here and there it could be used as a southern bypass of Tarvisio


That particular variant is forbidden for trucks (don't follow that truck in the back 😄), although there's no forbidding sign in the other direction and you can avoid it by continuing on the main road. However, that whole road is terrible for trucks, even if they aren't forbidden, and it's not signed in any way for major directions. The best thing would be to upgrade the Tarvisio-north into a full motorway interchange. It looks a bit complicated, but not impossible.


----------



## Verso

Ok, you can't drive a heavy truck there. You can get to Fusine in Valromana, but not to Slovenia.








Google Zemljevidi


V Google Zemljevidih poiščite lokalna podjetja, si oglejte zemljevide in pridobite navodila za vožnjo.




goo.gl


----------



## italystf

How do you drive between western and eastern part of Genoa without using the motorway?

When you go eastbount, there is a direct connection between Lungomare Canepa expressway and the Sopraelevata expressway.
















da SS 1, 21 a Corso Guglielmo Marconi, 8







www.google.com





But in the opposite direction, apparently there is no direct connection, and traffic has to use city streets to switch between the two expressways.
















da Corso Guglielmo Marconi, 8 a SS 1, 21







www.google.com


----------



## bortttt

italystf said:


> How do you drive between western and eastern part of Genoa without using the motorway?
> 
> When you go eastbount, there is a direct connection between Lungomare Canepa expressway and the Sopraelevata expressway.
> View attachment 687907
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> da SS 1, 21 a Corso Guglielmo Marconi, 8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But in the opposite direction, apparently there is no direct connection, and traffic has to use city streets to switch between the two expressways.
> View attachment 687912
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> da Corso Guglielmo Marconi, 8 a SS 1, 21
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com












At the San Benigno Node a "half" reconstruction work is in progress, the construction sites have started again about a month after the long pause in which the workers were employed in the elicodiale of the morandi viaduct.

About ten years ago there was talk of redoing the whole junction and demolishing the elicodiale, then we do not know why but they put a soccer field inside the elicodiale eliminating a serious redevelopment of the area.


----------



## g.spinoza

Works just started for the second carriageway of SS318 between Casacastalda and Valfabbrica, in central Italy.

The first carriageway was built anew as part of the Quadrilatero project: the original road was a mountain one, with many switchbacks up to the town of Casacastalda. It was built since the beginning with the idea of being doubled when money would be available.

Now 135 M€ have been allocated to Rti Donati Sspa-NV Besix company for this 3-km stretch, comprising 2 tunnels (Casacastalda, 1.5 km and Picchiarella 874 m). Three years and a half of total time.









Perugia-Ancona, via a 135 milioni di lavori per il raddoppio tra Valfabbrica e Casacastalda


Via a 135 milioni di lavori per il raddoppio a quattro corsie tra Valfabbrica e Casacastalda lungo la statale 318.E' stato consegnato all'impresa appaltatrice Rti Donati Sspa-NV Besix sa selezionata da Anas, il cantiere che ha un tempo di esecuzione di tre anni e mezzo per la realizzazione di tr




www.umbria24.it





Location: OpenStreetMap


----------



## legolego

legolego said:


> Non so se è il thread giusto :
> 
> *Autostrade, al Consorzio Medil l’appalto da 300 milioni per la terza corsia Firenze Sud-Incisa*
> Va al Consorzio stabile Medil il maxi-appalto da 300 milioni per la realizzazione della terza corsia sull’A1 tra Firenze Sud e Incisa.
> ...
> A occuparsi della progettazione dei lavori sarà il team indicato dal consorzio in gara e composto da Swiss Engineers, Offtec e Arethusa.
> 
> stradeeautostrade.it


from Italian thread


----------



## keber

Isn't that old news? This section is in the works already for many months. Sadly it appears again to have tunnels arrangement of 3 lanes south + 2x2 lanes north.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Until today, Bassano del Grappa (43k people in city proper and around 110k in urban area) was probably the largest urban area in Italy with no motorways or expressways to the rest of the country.


Biella, Manfredonia, Chioggia, Campobasso, Crotone


----------



## bortttt

x-type said:


> Chioggia


arriving by car from the A13 by car is much shorter than arriving at Bassano from the A31 or A4 or A27


----------



## verreme

bortttt said:


> arriving by car from the A13 by car is much shorter than arriving at Bassano from the A31 or A4 or A27


Still a loooong way on crap roads littered with roundabouts and slow traffic.


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> Biella, Manfredonia, Chioggia, Campobasso, Crotone


Biella and Manfredonia are larger but they do have an expressway connection. Crotone has one in construction.
None of them is as large as the Sicilian cities I mentioned, though.


----------



## CNGL

However how many of those cities have a larger urban area than Bassano del Grappa? I'm pretty sure Krotone isn't larger in that stat, not sure about the others.


----------



## g.spinoza

CNGL said:


> However how many of those cities have a larger urban area than Bassano del Grappa? I'm pretty sure Krotone isn't larger in that stat, not sure about the others.


Urban area is a fuzzy concept, though. There is no definition for it, so I don't know an answer for that


----------



## brick84

italystf said:


> I wonder what would have happened if the same situation of the Messina strait was in another country. Like Japan, China, the United States, Norway,...



Most country around the world copied "our" project/techniques. Indeed they talk about "Messina-style" refers to project of Strait of Messina Bridge.


----------



## g.spinoza

brick84 said:


> Most country around the world copied "our" project/techniques. Indeed they talk about "Messina-style" refers to project of Strait of Messina Bridge.


Well, copying something that isn't there makes me laugh...


----------



## brick84

g.spinoza said:


> Well, copying something that isn't there makes me laugh...


The project exist, and all "know-how" studies about the project developed during the last decades has been "used" in other projects in the world.


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> Biella and Manfredonia are larger but they do have an expressway connection. Crotone has one in construction.
> None of them is as large as the Sicilian cities I mentioned, though.


 I focused on 2+2 expressways. Italy is full of those 1+1 express roads (like Spanish ex via rapida), so I didn't coun't them. And yes, of course, it stays for your Sicilian cities


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> I focused on 2+2 expressways.


So did I. Ss89 in Manfredonia is 2+2, as well as Sp142var in Biella, and the Road in construction in crotone.


----------



## pccvspw999

x-type said:


> […] Italy *is full of those 1+1 express roads* (like Spanish ex via rapida), so I didn't coun't them.[…]


Really? Or are You confusing Italy with Germany? Because I feel a lack of these kind of roads, at least in the northern Italy.


----------



## FiveYears

g.spinoza said:


> Crotone has one in construction.


What is in construction? Ionica towards Sibari, connection to Catanzaro or something else?


----------



## bortttt

pccvspw999 said:


> Really? Or are You confusing Italy with Germany? Because I feel a lack of these kind of roads, at least in the northern Italy.


In Friuli 1+1 express roads are 2: SR177 (Pordenone - Sequals), TG-Udine-Est, Tunnel FARA (Barcis, Montereale), stretches of SS13
In Veneto 1+1 express roads are 3: SS306 (Padova - Castelfranco Veneto), SS10 (Este - Monselice), TG-San Donà Di Piace (if not for a traffic circle with the overpass never built), Schio - Valdagno Tunnel, stretches of SS47, stretches of SS13 and SS14, stretches of SR 348, 
In Lombardia 1+1 express roads are 3: SS45bis (Brescia - Salò), Corda Molle, TG-Pavia-Est, SS591, SS42, SS38
in Emilia 1+1 express road are: SS16 (Ferrara - Argenta), 

and less than another 100 km

but if you mean provincial, well there are quintals of them, too bad that there are more towns than you treat where to go to 70/90


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> So did I. Ss89 in Manfredonia is 2+2, as well as Sp142var in Biella, and the Road in construction in crotone.


But SP142var is not connected to the rest of national expressway/motorway network. Bassano del Grappa also has SS47, even connected to A22. But with interruptions.


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> But SP142var is not connected to the rest of national expressway/motorway network. Bassano del Grappa also has SS47, even connected to A22. But with interruptions.


Fair points.


----------



## bortttt

x-type said:


> But SP142var is not connected to the rest of national expressway/motorway network. Bassano del Grappa also has SS47, even connected to A22. But with interruptions.


But the main connection for Bassano via 2x2 was through the a22, outside the region, a bit like Pordenone that is connected to the a4 and a27 both outside the region.


----------



## pccvspw999

bortttt said:


> In Friuli 1+1 express roads are 2: SR177 (Pordenone - Sequals), TG-Udine-Est, Tunnel FARA (Barcis, Montereale), stretches of SS13
> In Veneto 1+1 express roads are 3: SS306 (Padova - Castelfranco Veneto), SS10 (Este - Monselice), TG-San Donà Di Piace (if not for a traffic circle with the overpass never built), Schio - Valdagno Tunnel, stretches of SS47, stretches of SS13 and SS14, stretches of SR 348,
> In Lombardia 1+1 express roads are 3: SS45bis (Brescia - Salò), Corda Molle, TG-Pavia-Est, SS591, SS42, SS38
> in Emilia 1+1 express road are: SS16 (Ferrara - Argenta),
> 
> and less than another 100 km


Quite unsatisfying, or not? Certainly not to be “full of them”.



> but if you mean provincial, well there are quintals of them, too bad that there are more towns than you treat where to go to 70/90


Of course not. But many of these roads should have been “1+1 express roads”, but instead designed with to many “at grade” intersections, with narrow cross section, steep gradients and too sharp radiuses to grant higher average speeds.


----------



## bortttt

pccvspw999 said:


> Quite unsatisfying, or not? Certainly not to be “full of them”.


Exactly, the nothingness, in fact they are classified among the most dangerous in Italy, because in certain stretches of "half" highway people are able to go at 130km/h and turn left to the gas station (I am reminded of the SR177 in friuli that there were numerous accidents on that stretch, then they put vertical signs to go straight, but no physical separation to avoid this dangerous maneuver, the SR177 has accidents throughout the stretch not only in that),
then the saint's SR307 is too busy to be 1+1, the SS45bis, the Spring Rope need urgent doubling.

also the worst thing is that in italy people do not understand that in a fast road 1+1 with staggered level junctions you can not turn left and you find the one that takes the junction on the wrong side of the road.

In addition, almost all the traits I have mentioned need doubling


----------



## kdpy

bortttt said:


> Exactly, the nothingness, in fact they are classified among the most dangerous in Italy, because in certain stretches of "half" highway people are able to go at 130km/h and turn left to the gas station (I am reminded of the SR177 in friuli that there were numerous accidents on that stretch, then they put vertical signs to go straight, but no physical separation to avoid this dangerous maneuver, the SR177 has accidents throughout the stretch not only in that),
> then the saint's SR307 is too busy to be 1+1, the SS45bis, the Spring Rope need urgent doubling.
> 
> also the worst thing is that in italy people do not understand that in a fast road 1+1 with staggered level junctions you can not turn left and you find the one that takes the junction on the wrong side of the road.
> 
> In addition, almost all the traits I have mentioned need doubling


The cheapest and most efficient solution is building barriers separating traffic direction along whole 1+1 expressway stretches. It removes most of accidents. Building second carriageway is more comfortable but requires money and law procedures.


----------



## Uppsala

One more thing about motorway signs in Italy:

Look at this link:









Google Maps


Hitta lokala företag, titta på kartor och hämta vägbeskrivningar i Google Maps.




www.google.se





There is a green sign for the motorway, but there is no toll road.

Look at this link:









Google Maps


Hitta lokala företag, titta på kartor och hämta vägbeskrivningar i Google Maps.




www.google.se





Same place but in 2008. And then there was no motorway sign at all, neither green nor blue.

So what happened? And why is it a green sign? Shouldn't there be a blue motorway sign here?


----------



## g.spinoza

Green or blue does not have anything to do with toll. It's just an administrative classification, not even that strict.
According to Wikipedia, between 2014 and 2015 that stretch has the signs replaced (but not consistently) with green ones.


----------



## kdpy

Uppsala said:


> One more thing about motorway signs in Italy:
> 
> Look at this link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Hitta lokala företag, titta på kartor och hämta vägbeskrivningar i Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.se
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a green sign for the motorway, but there is no toll road.


RA roads are usually signed as motorways but they are in standard of expressway. I also think it's strange. In Italy there are also few normal motorways near big cities and in southern regions which are free.

In addition to cities without motorways, interesting is example of Palermo. 5th biggest city of Italy hasn't bypass in motorway standard. There is only expressway-like road with pedestrian crossings and one traffic lights.


----------



## pccvspw999

Uppsala said:


> One more thing about motorway signs in Italy:
> 
> Look at this link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Hitta lokala företag, titta på kartor och hämta vägbeskrivningar i Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.se
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a green sign for the motorway, but there is no toll road.
> 
> Look at this link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Hitta lokala företag, titta på kartor och hämta vägbeskrivningar i Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.se
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same place but in 2008. And then there was no motorway sign at all, neither green nor blue.
> 
> So what happened? And why is it a green sign? Shouldn't there be a blue motorway sign here?


That’s the apogee of italian stupidity in road signage! 
First said: “green” motorways may be tolled, but it’s not a necessity. Toll roads are because those were build with concession and motorway concessionaires need to be paid. Only motorways can be build under concession. This was historic, now some legislative changes make it possible to toll roads by any means, just because our bankrupt state has not the money to run the road system in a decent state of maintainance, despite the fact that motorised trafic contributes by many of the tax incomes.
Concerning my first comment, the road you’ve shown was newly classified as “RA - raccordo autostradale” (motorway collector) a meaningless definition as this does not lead to better maintainance, higher standards or whatsoever. It is still a “blue motorway” with all it’s limits and constraints (even less as it’s speed limit is 90km/h). But with green signs it looks fancy, and someone cares.
The “blu” sign in the “2008” imaging was meaningless. It was the right half of the “upcoming (blue) motorway” advise sign, ment to recall all exisiting limits on these kind of roads. But without it’s left pendant it wasn’t compulsory, and illegal by any definition. Also the new “green” sign has no compulsory meaning: only the stand-alone “motorway begins” sing (motorway symbol on green field) has it. So, until You don’t find that last sign you must assume to be on nothing else than a normal land road.
This mistake has an explanation: with the 1992 road codex that composite sign was “downgraded” to an advisory and accessory role, being before the proper “motorway begins” sing with all it’s compulsory rules.
We seem to be unable to recognize the semantic of road signs and to use them in the right way and just as necessary, making them readable and understandable for people driving a vehicle in motion at a certain speed. It’s only a piece of plastified metal sheet placed were it looks better, only because a law says so, not because they are ment to be useful to those who use the roads.


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## Uppsala

It is even more complicated there, because on the same motorway there is another entrance that is close by, which has a blue motorway sign.









Google Maps


Hitta lokala företag, titta på kartor och hämta vägbeskrivningar i Google Maps.




www.google.se


----------



## pccvspw999

Uppsala said:


> It is even more complicated there, because on the same motorway there is another entrance that is close by, which has a blue motorway sign.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Hitta lokala företag, titta på kartor och hämta vägbeskrivningar i Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.se


Yes, I know. I made a Google-trip around that spot before writing my comment. The whole thing is a mess, and that’s why I wrote:”apogee of stupidity” (or ignorance).
But consider that in the direction of Siena the Blue signage is correct.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

Uppsala said:


> Look at this link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Hitta lokala företag, titta på kartor och hämta vägbeskrivningar i Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.se
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same place but in 2008. And then there was no motorway sign at all, neither green nor blue.


They've used that:








instead of this:









Maybe I've just said enough about this question, but: this last useful and official sign it's too much substituted with that or other unuseful agglomerate of forbid-signs!
This because the road signs on italian roads are not planned! But placed rather still randomly... 🤦


----------



## bortttt

Uppsala said:


> It is even more complicated there, because on the same motorway there is another entrance that is close by, which has a blue motorway sign.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Hitta lokala företag, titta på kartor och hämta vägbeskrivningar i Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.se





g.spinoza said:


> Green or blue does not have anything to do with toll. It's just an administrative classification, not even that strict.
> According to Wikipedia, between 2014 and 2015 that stretch has the signs replaced (but not consistently) with green ones.


----------



## Uppsala

Autobahn-mann said:


> They've used that:
> View attachment 787285
> 
> instead of this:
> View attachment 787286
> 
> 
> Maybe I've just said enough about this question, but: this last useful and official sign it's too much substituted with that or other unuseful agglomerate of forbid-signs!
> This because the road signs on italian roads are not planned! But placed rather still randomly... 🤦



Then I think the lower one is better than the upper one. The lower one is international, the upper one feels more local.


----------



## bortttt

Autobahn-mann said:


> They've used that:
> View attachment 787285
> 
> instead of this:
> View attachment 787286
> 
> 
> Maybe I've just said enough about this question, but: this last useful and official sign it's too much substituted with that or other unuseful agglomerate of forbid-signs!
> This because the road signs on italian roads are not planned! But placed rather still randomly... 🤦


in my opinion the two signals should be next to each other

a road reserved for motor vehicles, has the same limits as a highway

often find absurd symbols in the Tangenziali 








Treviso








Padua (corso Esperanto)








Bologna (Asse Attrezzato)















vs








Modena (Tangenziale Nord)















Parma (Tangenziale Nord)








Piacenza















Trieste








Udine








Vicenza (TG-Sud)


----------



## Uppsala

In Perugia, the motorway signs are blue. I have driven in Perugia a few times and also really saw that there are blue motorway signs in Perugia.









Google Maps


Hitta lokala företag, titta på kartor och hämta vägbeskrivningar i Google Maps.




www.google.se





When I see these blue motorway signs, I think that these mean just as much motorway as the green ones. In addition, some countries such as Germany, Austria, Norway, Poland or France only have blue motorway signs. But in Italy, many people seem to think that only a green motorway sign shows a real motorway, not the blue ones.

But the regulations are the same for blue motorway signs. And the road actually looks the same even where it is blue.

In Italy, only green motorways have A-numbers. Many blue motorways only have SS numbers. But a motorway does not have to have an A-number or be a motorway. No special road number is required to be classified as a motorway.

So I think blue motorways are still real motorways.


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## bortttt

Biella


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## Uppsala

bortttt said:


> Piacenza
> View attachment 787404



This is a typical example of Italy in particular. Green motorway ends and blue motorway begins.

But for me, it's still a motorway. It feels uninteresting that a green one ends and a blue one takes over. It's still a motorway anyway.


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## bortttt

Uppsala said:


> In Perugia, the motorway signs are blue. I have driven in Perugia a few times and also really saw that there are blue motorway signs in Perugia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Hitta lokala företag, titta på kartor och hämta vägbeskrivningar i Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.se
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I see these blue motorway signs, I think that these mean just as much motorway as the green ones. In addition, some countries such as Germany, Austria, Norway, Poland or France only have blue motorway signs. But in Italy, many people seem to think that only a green motorway sign shows a real motorway, not the blue ones.
> 
> But the regulations are the same for blue motorway signs. And the road actually looks the same even where it is blue.
> 
> In Italy, only green motorways have A-numbers. Many blue motorways only have SS numbers. But a motorway does not have to have an A-number or be a motorway. No special road number is required to be classified as a motorway.
> 
> So I think blue motorways are still real motorways.


the highway code provides:

CAT A highways "Green motorway" (autostrada - geometric characteristics: 3.75 mt x 2 or more + 3 mt of emergency + 0.75 of central quay + 2.5 mt of traffic divider), maximum speed 130 km/h, numbering starts with A, T or RA or by way of exception symbols like as GVT and GRA and SPV
main extra-urban roads CAT B "Blue motorway" (superstrada): 3.75 mt x 2 or more + 0.75 mt side quay, maximum speed 110 km/h, numbering is defined by the managing by state (ANAS), region or province: (SS, SR, SP)
secondary suburban roads, maximum speed 90 km/h, numbering is defined by the managing by state (ANAS), region or province: (SS, SR, SP)
also provides that certain suburban secondary roads may be reserved for motor vehicles only (tangenziali and raccordi).

then provides for derogations to allow all freeways built before 2001 to be classified as autostrade (Ligurian autostrade first, but all autostrade with central guard rail very small).

besides in the years some stretches with green signals have become blue, others from blue to green (like Perugia, or the RA16, in 2008 were green) but often in these jobs the workers have forgotten some signs








for example this one still reads the wrong displacement limits


----------



## bortttt

RA16: 1982(?) - 2008 half green half blue - 2008 - 2020 blue


----------



## italystf

Another non-compliant restriction sign. Beginning of SS707 in Varese.








It's also impossible to see because it's hidden behind a tree.


----------



## italystf

bortttt said:


> View attachment 787322
> 
> Treviso
> View attachment 787330
> 
> Padua (corso Esperanto)
> 
> View attachment 787401
> 
> Piacenza


These are correct. Only some vehicles are banned, not the whole list that is banned on motorways/expressways (A and B class roads).


bortttt said:


> View attachment 787404
> View attachment 787406
> 
> Trieste


That's correct too. Here there's a switch between two road classes with the same restrictions, hence it's not necessary to post restrictions.


bortttt said:


> View attachment 787407
> 
> Udine


That's wrong. And even worse as it's just a couple of years old. Usually inconsistent signs are pretty old.


----------



## bortttt

italystf said:


> These are correct.


I believe that in Italy there should be such a sign and "standardize" all the previous signs I posted.










italystf said:


> That's wrong. And even worse as it's just a couple of years old. Usually inconsistent signs are pretty old.


will be 1990-1995, the tangenziale nord of udine is old


----------



## italystf

bortttt said:


> will be 1990-1995, the tangenziale nord of udine is old


No, there were no traffic restrictions until recently. I drive there quite regularly.


----------



## bortttt

italystf said:


> No, there were no traffic restrictions until recently. I drive there quite regularly.


this one was mounted between 2018-2019. you are right.








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





By north I mean the stretch that connects SS13 (Pn-Ud) and (Ud-tarvisio) although theoretically it is west.


----------



## italystf

SS202 Sopraelevata di Trieste was completed in 1988 and it was classificated as motorway. In 1997 it was downgraded to expressway. However, until around 2015 all signs were still green. Then, they started replacing green signs with blue signs, but some green signs are still standing.

Blue (new) expressway sign









Blue (new) speed cam sign









Green (old) exit sign









Green (old) tunnel sign









Blue (new) exit sign; the green sign on the left is new and correct, as it points to actual motorways:









Blue (new) rest area sign


----------



## bortttt

italystf said:


> SS202 Sopraelevata di Trieste was completed in 1988 and it was classificated as motorway. In 1997 it was downgraded to expressway. However, until around 2015 all signs were still green. Then, they started replacing green signs with blue signs, but some green signs are still standing.
> 
> Blue (new) expressway sign
> View attachment 788413
> 
> 
> Blue (new) speed cam sign
> View attachment 788416
> 
> 
> Green (old) exit sign
> View attachment 788414
> 
> 
> Green (old) tunnel sign
> View attachment 788418
> 
> 
> Blue (new) exit sign; the green sign on the left is new and correct, as it points to actual motorways:
> View attachment 788420
> 
> 
> Blue (new) rest area sign
> View attachment 788413
> View attachment 788414
> View attachment 788416
> View attachment 788418
> View attachment 788420
> View attachment 788421
> 
> View attachment 788421











1) it must be said that the classification of GVT is inconsistent and absurd (highway, freeway, ...)

2) the last sections were completed in 2005 and 2008 (the carso tunnel and the SS202 at the beginning was 1+1 in the middle.


----------



## Uppsala

italystf said:


> SS202 Sopraelevata di Trieste was completed in 1988 and it was classificated as motorway. In 1997 it was downgraded to expressway. However, until around 2015 all signs were still green. Then, they started replacing green signs with blue signs, but some green signs are still standing.
> 
> Blue (new) expressway sign
> View attachment 788413
> 
> 
> Blue (new) speed cam sign
> View attachment 788416
> 
> 
> Green (old) exit sign
> View attachment 788414
> 
> 
> Green (old) tunnel sign
> View attachment 788418
> 
> 
> Blue (new) exit sign; the green sign on the left is new and correct, as it points to actual motorways:
> View attachment 788420
> 
> 
> Blue (new) rest area sign
> View attachment 788413
> View attachment 788414
> View attachment 788416
> View attachment 788418
> View attachment 788420
> View attachment 788421
> 
> View attachment 788421




The road was thus opened in 1988 as a green motorway. In 1997 it was changed to a blue motorway, but the green signs remained. Since 2015, new signs have been put up that are blue.

But this is where I think I have my point in my reasoning. They have not replaced the motorway signs with expressway signs. They have instead replaced green motorway signs with blue motorway signs. But still signs that are just as much motorway signs.

The pictures also show that the road is shaped like a motorway. The pictures show the motorway in a more urban environment. In an urban environment, motorways tend to have a slightly lower speed than otherwise, this is normal, but it is still a motorway.

The road in the pictures is a bit narrower. There is no hard shoulder etc. But this is also normal for motorways in these environments. In many other countries, too, there are motorways that look like this, but are still signposted as motorways.

So it's not expressway. It is a motorway, with motorway signs. Whether the motorway signs are green or blue is obviously irrelevant. It's just as much motorway anyway


----------



## x-type

Uppsala said:


> I have driven a lot in both Italy and Croatia.
> 
> The Croatian are very nice and a little influenced by Italy. But the Italian are even bigger.
> 
> I hope that Italy NEVER removes its big beautiful motorway signs and replaces with the in my opinion so boring German square-shaped variant.


True, Croatian motorway entrance are not especially large. I cannot now find law about their size, but it is max 2 metres in height.
However, before signalization change in 2000 Croatia also had those Italian-like gigantic 3 metres motorway signs in both variants: motorway entrance with those additional things about motorcycles, pedestrians etc., and single ones (I remember them for exit, not sure if they existed also for entrance in solo version), and they were huge just as Italian.


----------



## PovilD

Italy also decided many things to do their own way, but on the other hand, interesting terminology, signs. Green and blue motorway signs. Terms "superstrada" and "autostrada".

...but I don't think I like blue motorway sign used along with green motorway sign, better just have restriction signs if expressway sign (white car) is looking too confusing. White car expressway symbol is indeed has some counterintuitive properties, like end of expressway sign which might be understood as "no cars allowed sign" at least for those who are not used to European signage.


----------



## bortttt

PovilD said:


> Italy also decided many things to do their own way, but on the other hand, interesting terminology, signs. Green and blue motorway signs. Terms "superstrada" and "autostrada".
> 
> ...but I don't think I like blue motorway sign used along with green motorway sign, better just have restriction signs if expressway sign (white car) is looking too confusing. White car expressway symbol is indeed has some counterintuitive properties, like end of expressway sign which might be understood as "no cars allowed sign" at least for those who are not used to European signage.


without the signs of explicit prohibition in italy a tractor can enter the ring road, take the fine, sue the person who fined him and earn millions for damages.








for the same reason it is obligatory to warn in case of an open freeway passage for work in progress, because maybe you find the truck that makes a U-turn at the passage













The problem is that if the truck crashes with another vehicle, the other vehicle can sue the highway company for not warning about the danger!


----------



## lucaf1

Until 1992, urban expressway with motorway-standard could have green signals even if they weren’t motorway (ss202 Trieste, tangenziale est roma, raccordo Verona T4)

images about Verona: Google Maps and here Google Maps

LAW: Circolare 2730 del 1971 Segnaletica delle autostrade urbane.

about GVT Trieste: NSA344 and NSA 326 are, officially, motorway without a Number... page 31: https://www.stradeanas.it/sites/default/files/pdf/Provvedimento Anas del 31.10.2020 pubblicato in G.U. del 10.11.2020 n.132 - foglio delle inserzioni parte II_Adeguamento canoni licenze, concessioni e pubblicità anno 2021.pdf

more info and map: Autostrada Sistiana-Rabuiese - Wikipedia

finally, about RA: after the oil crisi italian governement did a law to block construction of motorway, at all. before in 1961 government did a new law with the purpose to build spur route linking motorway to main cities without defining, by the main law, if this spur route had to be proper motorway or expressway. When the every single spur route Was build the minister decided with a decree if that new spur route Was A motorway or not.

Recap of this crazy italian story about raccordi autostradali: Raccordo autostradale - Wikipedia


----------



## Uppsala

lucaf1 said:


> Until 1992, urban expressway with motorway-standard could have green signals even if they weren’t motorway (ss202 Trieste, tangenziale est roma, raccordo Verona T4)
> 
> images about Verona: Google Maps and here Google Maps
> 
> LAW: Circolare 2730 del 1971 Segnaletica delle autostrade urbane.
> 
> about GVT Trieste: NSA344 and NSA 326 are, officially, motorway without a Number... page 31: https://www.stradeanas.it/sites/default/files/pdf/Provvedimento Anas del 31.10.2020 pubblicato in G.U. del 10.11.2020 n.132 - foglio delle inserzioni parte II_Adeguamento canoni licenze, concessioni e pubblicità anno 2021.pdf
> 
> more info and map: Autostrada Sistiana-Rabuiese - Wikipedia
> 
> finally, about RA: after the oil crisi italian governement did a law to block construction of motorway, at all. before in 1961 government did a new law with the purpose to build spur route linking motorway to main cities without defining, by the main law, if this spur route had to be proper motorway or expressway. When the every single spur route Was build the minister decided with a decree if that new spur route Was A motorway or not.
> 
> Recap of this crazy italian story about raccordi autostradali: Raccordo autostradale - Wikipedia



And then there are apparently green RA-motorways and blue RA-motorways. I have driven the RA6 to Perugia a number of times, and it is apparently considered a blue RA-motorway here.

It's a lovely mess here:

There seem to be the following types of motorways in Italy:

Motorways with payment and which have A-numbers. Always green motorway signs.
Motorways with RA-numbers with green signs.
Motorways with RA-numbers with blue signs.
Motorways without motorway numbers, often with SS-numbers instead with green signs.
Motorways without motorway numbers, often with SS-numbers instead with blue signs.
That means 5 versions and all of them that I have listed have motorway signs and nothing else. And they are all motorways


----------



## g.spinoza

Uppsala said:


> And then there are apparently green RA-motorways and blue RA-motorways. I have driven the RA6 to Perugia a number of times, and it is apparently considered a blue RA-motorway here.
> 
> It's a lovely mess here:
> 
> There seem to be the following types of motorways in Italy:
> 
> Motorways with payment and which have A-numbers. Always green motorway signs.
> Motorways with RA-numbers with green signs.
> Motorways with RA-numbers with blue signs.
> Motorways without motorway numbers, often with SS-numbers instead with green signs.
> Motorways without motorway numbers, often with SS-numbers instead with blue signs.
> That means 5 versions and all of them that I have listed have motorway signs and nothing else. And they are all motorways


I've never seen a "4", i.e. a green-signed motorway with SS numbers.
Besides, there are other categories: 

motorways without toll which have A-numbers and green signs. E.g. A2, A19
motorways with toll, which do not have A-numbers, with green signs (SPV)


----------



## Vignole

Do you think is possible a unified EU road signaling and road marking system?


----------



## Uppsala

g.spinoza said:


> I've never seen a "4", i.e. a green-signed motorway with SS numbers.
> Besides, there are other categories:
> 
> motorways without toll which have A-numbers and green signs. E.g. A2, A19
> motorways with toll, which do not have A-numbers, with green signs (SPV)



Then we make a new list and hope that this is better 

Motorways with toll and which have A-numbers. Always green motorway signs.
Motorways with toll but no numbers. Always green motorway signs.
Motorways that are free to drive on which have A-numbers. Always green motorway signs.
Motorways with RA numbers with green motorway signs.
Motorways with RA numbers with blue motorway signs
Motorways without motorway numbers, often with SS-numbers instead of with blue motorway signs.
This will instead be 6 versions


----------



## Autobahn-mann

AFAIK, non-motorway expressways changed from green to blue in 1984. This by Law but, in fact, how many of them buildt in 80ies have followed this?


----------



## bortttt

Uppsala said:


> Motorways that are free to drive on which have A-numbers. Always green motorway signs.


Add after this:

Motorways that are free to drive but no numbers. Always green motorway signs:
- Raccordo A57/MP (Tangenziale di Mestre - Venice Tessera Airport "Marco Polo")








- GRA (Roma, ANAS, green, also called A90, but you will almost always find signs with "GRA")








- Tangenziale di Catania (ANAS, green)








- Autostrada Catania-Siracusa (ANAS, green, ANAS has decided to call it A01 according to a tweet with the addition of the SS114 freeway section, waiting to change color

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1164174130796802048)








- Autostrada Sistiana-Rabuiese (ex GVT, ANAS, the Carso tunnel is green, the rest of the stretch beyond the SS202 is blue, the carso tunnel is the last continuous section of the A4 before it becomes "blue", the SS202 once it was green and some green signals remained)











g.spinoza said:


> I've never seen a "4", i.e. a green-signed motorway with SS numbers.


with SS numbers no, but whit other acronyms, even absurd yes


----------



## lucaf1

By the law motorway are always called with A letter plus a number and always with green signals. That’s it.

Tolled or not is not mentioned by the law to identify a motorway.

GVT, SPV, RA, MP are exceptions. And every RA is a history.

autostrade managed by ANAS without number (GVT, ct-sr) are exceptions.

SPV is a long history :

government Decided to build a motorway (1997).

regional government decided to build by itselF. Region decided to build as superstrada after NIMBY protest even if with upgraded standard. Region decided to apply green signals as a motorway (and for a driver IS a motorway with that rules) but with lower speed limit.

strad extraurbani principali aka superstrade aka blue motorway have always blue signal. Acronyms must be letters (SS, SR, SP) plus numbers. FI-PI-LI is the main exception.


----------



## lucaf1

FI PI LI also signed as SGC (strada di grande comunicazione, from a name of law that decided to finance a lot of expressway, motorway and freeway in the 60’s) is owned by the region, managed by the provinces. Technically is a strada extraurbana secondaria with upgraded standard and with the same restrictions of the motorway:









Google Maps


Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.




www.google.it


----------



## lucaf1

I found that a small spur route in Milan, managed by Autostrade per l Italia, is signed as R5:









Google Maps


Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.




www.google.it


----------



## legolego

If you are interested in to the "classification history" of italians roads (italian language):



https://moodle2.units.it/pluginfile.php/150305/mod_resource/content/1/PIV_2017-2018_L02_ClassificazioneStrade.pdf



(from page # 18)


----------



## bortttt

lucaf1 said:


> I found that a small spur route in Milan, managed by Autostrade per l Italia, is signed as R5:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.it








TE - Trasporti Eccezionali - Mappe


TE on line è un sito aperto a tutti gli interessati ai Transiti Eccezionali, in particolare è rivolto agli operatori del settore, trasportatori ed agenzie, che vogliono avere informazioni sulle normative, limitazioni ai transiti o documentazione necessaria per richiedere un'autorizzazione. A...



teonline.autostrade.it




maybe you will find others


----------



## pccvspw999

lucaf1 said:


> I found that a small spur route in Milan, managed by Autostrade per l Italia, is signed as R5:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.it


This is a special situation: R5 was the old final stretch of A1, that ended there before the new alignment was build were it runs now. But why calling it "RA5"? It could easily be kept as "A1" as a part of it like other ramps and whatsoever. Better, reclassified as "SS1" of which it is a re-routing, even if managed by "Autostrade per l'Italia". Because it shall not matter who manages the road in its classification, as it doesn't matter that, i.e., A4 is still A4 even if it is managed by 4 different companies.


----------



## lucaf1

It’s not RA5 but only R5 

I guess it’s an internal number of autostrade per l Italia, not decided by a law or a decree. Even if the company decided to show it “officially”


----------



## pccvspw999

It’s a stupid decision. This route needs a high efficient road, capable of high speeds (130km/h) and made with high construction standard.
It doesn’t matter who builds the road, concessionary or ANAS, but a “A” standard is needed, and than it can be called “A12”.


----------



## bortttt

pccvspw999 said:


> It’s a stupid decision. This route needs a high efficient road, capable of high speeds (130km/h) and made with high construction standard.
> It doesn’t matter who builds the road, concessionary or ANAS, but a “A” standard is needed, and than it can be called “A12”.


In any case, with the next financing period, they will privatize many freeways managed by ANAS with most likely a free-flow.


----------



## italystf

keber said:


> I drove that section in 2019. While general alignment of SS 131 is OK, those few level interchanges (present only in that area as I remember) are surely not as many drive substantially over 90 km/h speed limit. When I drove from side road to main road on one such interchange I got some adrenaline rush as it is really unsafe. I don't remember driving through such interchanges elsewhere in Europe except in some villages west of Moscow and even there it was felt much safer.
> In general all Sardinia superstradas would need some refreshments with better pavement and also higher speed limits. Most 4-lane SS roads in Sardinia are OK to drive 110 km/h, not just 90 km/h which is almost a norm in Sardinia.


SS131 is the historical road connecting north and south Sardinia. It has always been there in the past 2 centuries or so. In the past decades it had been widened to 4 lanes, in some sections with grade separation, in other without. It's not a newly built road next to an older one. It's an enlargement of an old road.


----------



## italystf

bortttt said:


> In any case, with the next financing period, they will privatize many freeways managed by ANAS with most likely a free-flow.


They're saying that for at least 10 years but nothing has happened so far. It's unpopular to introduce tolls on previously free roads.


----------



## italystf

pccvspw999 said:


> It’s a stupid decision. This route needs a high efficient road, capable of high speeds (130km/h) and made with high construction standard.
> It doesn’t matter who builds the road, concessionary or ANAS, but a “A” standard is needed, and than it can be called “A12”.


A modern expressway will probably have higher standards than many old motorways from 1960s or 1970s, especially those in mountanious area like Liguria. SS1 Livorno-Grosseto isn't much worse than A10 Genoa-Ventimiglia.
On the other hand, SS1 between Grosseto and Tarquinia is unacceptable: at-grade intersections, private driveways, and even a 1+1 section of several kilometers.


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ I don’t care of older standards. I’m talking of a modern road with high standards for higher average speeds.
A12 is part of “long haul” route, connecting far away distant cities, even in France and Spain, with Rome. It has to have the higher possible standard. Calling it “A12” will only underwrite this fact, but it’s not compulsory.


----------



## g.spinoza

A bike path in Rome:










It seems that a recent (last October) pronounciation by the Ministry of Transport made these structures basically illegal.

Now they have been removed in that specific location:
























Roma, la "ciclabile a ostacoli" liberata dai parapedonali - Bikeitalia.it


La famosa "ciclabile a ostacoli" di via Giuseppe Berto a Roma è stata liberata dagli archetti parapedonali, diventati fuorilegge




www.bikeitalia.it





I know many other places where these structures still stand.


----------



## Suburbanist

Incredible...


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> Incredible...


They were placed before driveways and private access to slow down bicycles as they approach... Now it seems the priorities have switched, and private accesses will get bumps to slow them down.


----------



## g.spinoza

You can spot some of those barriers (OSM calls them "cycle_barrier") here in Brescia too:









Google Maps


Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.




www.google.it













Google Maps


Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.




www.google.it


----------



## brick84

*A14 | Bologna-Taranto*

_from Bari to Foggia, Apulia_


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Last time I drove there temperatures were around 37 oC. Nice memories though.


----------



## g.spinoza

Works for the completion of A33 Asti-Cuneo have actually started.
For the time being, only 5 km of lot 2.6 between Alba and Verduno will be built. Three years is the envisioned time.









Iniziati i lavori per il completamento dell'autostrada Asti-Cuneo, sopralluogo di Cirio e Gabusi sul cantiere - ATNews.it


Soddisfazione da parte dei massimi vertici regionali per l'avvio dei lavori di completamento dell'autostrada Asti-Cuneo. Il presidente del Piemonte,




www.atnews.it












OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## italystf

Nice to see that they are resuming works. Works in that section were stopped in 2012.
However OSM shows under construction the whole Alba-Cherasco section, not just Alba-Verduno, like the article says.

I wonder if they will upgrade Alba bypass too, as it's very substandard:


----------



## bortttt

italystf said:


> Nice to see that they are resuming works. Works in that section were stopped in 2012.
> However OSM shows under construction the whole Alba-Cherasco section, not just Alba-Verduno, like the article says.
> 
> I wonder if they will upgrade Alba bypass too, as it's very substandard:
> View attachment 1016204


Currently the A33 is managed by several different concessionaires (ANAS, region, province, and freeway concessionaire), in that section it is provincial.

The concessionaire has the same contract as the A12: it will only pass to the concessionaire once it has been upgraded to a freeway, and therefore it is currently managed by a large number of entities that no one has any interest in maintaining.


----------



## g.spinoza

Project of the first "bicycle superstrada" of Italy was recently presented.








It will consist of a 12-km stretch (of which only 7.1 are financed) between Florence and Prato, and will feature a 200-m-long viaduct over A1 motorway.
The intention is to create not just a touristic feature, but a real commuting alternative between the two cities.









La prima Superciclabile d’Italia collegherà Firenze a Prato: ecco il percorso


Dodici chilometri di asfalto riciclato. La prima Superciclabile d’Italia sta per diventare realtà: un'autostrada per bici che collegherà Firenze a Prato in 30 minuti. La ciclovia partirà da via Perfetti Ricasoli a Firenze e arriverà al Centro Pecci di Prato, passando sopra l'autostrada A1: i...




www.lastampa.it


----------



## pccvspw999

Super-duper bycicle roads and awful roads for all the rest. And in 10 years also the mega-ultra-cycle road will fall apart like the rest. Or is it a toll-road? Of course not!


----------



## kdpy

Will be there toll stations for bikes?


----------



## g.spinoza

kdpy said:


> Will be there toll stations for bikes?


Of course not, and may I add, God forbid.
Italy must promote alternative mobility, not cripple it with taxes and tolls.


----------



## pccvspw999

That's not "promoting alternative mobility", is wasting money.


----------



## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> That's not "promoting alternative mobility", is wasting money.


Well, that is your opinion. 
Such an infrastructure would make me switch from car to bike instantly.


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> Well, that is your opinion.
> Such an infrastructure would make me switch from car to bike instantly.


You and some sparse fellows. You'll get from one city to the other and then... grinded at the first bend. And in 10 years, You'll leave Your bike because that mega super-duper cycleway is abandoned and not maintained, as most of the roads.
Toll: if You're so keen to have such cycleways, maybe You shall also pay for it. Isn't it worth?
Let us spend the money in a simple, at grade, cycleways network, beeing part of the road itself and not a separated infrastructure to be maintained from someone else who, at the end, will not take care of it.


----------



## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> You and some sparse fellows. You'll get from one city to the other and then... grinded at the first bend. And in 10 years, You'll leave Your bike because that mega super-duper cycleway is abandoned and not maintained, as most of the roads.


Having such an infrastructure does not mean neglecting normal, in-city cycle paths.



> Toll: if You're so keen to have such cycleways, maybe You shall also pay for it. Isn't it worth?


Aren't regular roads worth paying for? Or superstrade? Or hospitals? Or the air you breathe?



> Let us spend the money in a simple, at grade, cycleways network, beeing part of the road itself and not a separated infrastructure to be maintained from someone else who, at the end, will not take care of it.


That is a possibility, yes. But at grade cycleways, on such long distances, are 1- more dangerous and 2- slower, so nobody will use them. That is my definition of waste of money.

Not building infrastructures because "nobody will maintain them" is a very dangerous thing, because it could be extended to basically anything.


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> Having such an infrastructure does not mean neglecting normal, in-city cycle paths.


I won't be that sure. But first make a modern in-city networks, then let us talk about the rest.


> Aren't regular roads worth paying for? Or superstrade? Or hospitals? Or the air you breathe?


Yes, and they are. But this thing here is to be compared with an Autostrada, with special toll.


> That is a possibility, yes. But at grade cycleways, on such long distances, are 1- more dangerous and 2- slower, so nobody will use them. That is my definition of waste of money.


What I propose is what has been done everywere, with time, planning and scheduling.


> Not building infrastructures because "nobody will maintain them" is a very dangerous thing, because it could be extended to basically anything.


You're right, but it is also common experience here in Italy that infrastructures are made just for that: to be made and then neglected. And this one is one of them. IMHO of course.


----------



## g.spinoza

Agree to disagree. But it's a pleasure discussing with you.


----------



## g.spinoza

SS 163 "Amalfitana" is closed since yesterday in Amalfi due to a part of the rock face collapsing onto the road. Amalfi cannot be reached from the West now.
Fortunately nobody was hurt, even though the road is usually quite busy.








Amalfi, frana il costone sulla strada statale, zona isolata: “Danni gravi”


Frana il costone roccioso ad Amalfi, travolgendo la statale amalfitana e raggiungendo anche il Lungomare




www.fanpage.it





















This is the place in google earth:









Amalfi · 84011 Amalfi SA, Italia


84011 Amalfi SA, Italia




www.google.it


----------



## keber

Looks like the rock is not as compact and durable as and it could get even more loose over time. If you take a ship along the coast you can see that many buildings, roads or even villages are built even over natural arches that could collapse already tomorrow or only after ten thousand years. Most buildings in those rocks are not older than 100 years.


----------



## legolego

bortttt said:


> Currently the A33 is managed by several different concessionaires (ANAS, region, province, and freeway concessionaire), in that section it is provincial.
> 
> The concessionaire has the same contract as the A12: it will only pass to the concessionaire once it has been upgraded to a freeway, and therefore it is currently managed by a large number of entities that no one has any interest in maintaining.


In my opinion that isn't "really" true.
A33 is actually managed (unfotunately) by "Gruppo Gavio" (that manages almost the entire NorthWest Italy's motorway).
The construction of A33, has been decided ('90) in accordance with the italian government, subordinated as such conditions like : duration of the concession (initially unitl 2045), financing costs...
The last review of the project was approved in 2012, but later was defined financially unsustainable.
Later May 2020, has been approved a new financial plan and a less expensive project for the missing lots (in particular has been removed from the project the Verduno tunnel), and has been defined a new duration of the concession (2031) in accordance with other specifications (succeed value...toll fees...).
For example, some very interesting details about CIPE economic "nulla osta" :

_1.4 tasso di remunerazione del 9,23 per cento per quanto non coperto da cross financing , mentre quest’ultimo invece viene remunerato all’interno del PEF di SATAP A4 e dovrà seguire le indicazioni in termini di remunerazione fornite dall’ART; 
1.5 un valore di subentro pari a circa 345 milioni di euro al 2031; 
1.6 tariffe costanti per veicoli leggeri (*0,09637 €/Km*) e per veicoli pesanti (0,21307 €/Km) per le annualità 2018-2022, e successivi *incrementi dal 2023 in poi del 2,2 per cento annuo* (pari al tasso di inflazione stimato dell’1,2 per cento incrementato dell’1 per cento);_

(http://ricerca-delibere.programmazioneeconomica.gov.it/media/docs/2020/E200013.pdf)

The recently approved stretch is the lot # 2.6 (*9,8 km* long), divided in two sub-lot : 2.6a + 2.6b. Works will start form lot 2.6b. the entire stretch will be finishing in *2024*

Actual situation of A33 (green line: the missing stretch)

*







*


----------



## bortttt

legolego said:


> In my opinion that isn't "really" true.
> A33 is actually managed (unfotunately) by "Gruppo Gavio" (that manages almost the entire NorthWest Italy's motorway).
> The construction of A33, has been decided ('90) in accordance with the italian government, subordinated as such conditions like : duration of the concession (initially unitl 2045), financing costs...
> The last review of the project was approved in 2012, but later was defined financially unsustainable.
> Later May 2020, has been approved a new financial plan and a less expensive project for the missing lots (in particular has been removed from the project the Verduno tunnel), and has been defined a new duration of the concession (2031) in accordance with other specifications (succeed value...toll fees...).
> For example, some very interesting details about CIPE economic "nulla osta" :
> 
> _1.4 tasso di remunerazione del 9,23 per cento per quanto non coperto da cross financing , mentre quest’ultimo invece viene remunerato all’interno del PEF di SATAP A4 e dovrà seguire le indicazioni in termini di remunerazione fornite dall’ART;
> 1.5 un valore di subentro pari a circa 345 milioni di euro al 2031;
> 1.6 tariffe costanti per veicoli leggeri (*0,09637 €/Km*) e per veicoli pesanti (0,21307 €/Km) per le annualità 2018-2022, e successivi *incrementi dal 2023 in poi del 2,2 per cento annuo* (pari al tasso di inflazione stimato dell’1,2 per cento incrementato dell’1 per cento);_
> 
> (http://ricerca-delibere.programmazioneeconomica.gov.it/media/docs/2020/E200013.pdf)
> 
> The recently approved stretch is the lot # 2.6 (*9,8 km* long), divided in two sub-lot : 2.6a + 2.6b. Works will start form lot 2.6b. the entire stretch will be finishing in *2024*
> 
> Actual situation of A33 (green line: the missing stretch)
> 
> *
> View attachment 1049924
> *



















I wasn't talking about the financial plan but about the fact that currently the stretches not in highway standards, but with freeway standards are managed by
ANAS, the Piedmont Region and the Province of Cuneo, in particular
from the Alba lay-by bridge over the Tanaro river to the beginning of the A33 slip road is managed by ANAS 
the A33 slip road between Alba and Castagnito is managed by the Piedmont Region. 
the stretch from Roddi to the lay-by bridge is managed by the Province of Cuneo
and finally, the stretch between Asti and the A21 is managed by ANAS.

and the contract is the same as for the A12: as soon as you finish the adjustment work you manage it, thus leaving the concessionaire free to choose when to do the work.

For example, in Croatia the A8/A9 were all given to the concessionaire when they were still 1x1 expressways, and little by little the concessionaire upgraded them to freeways and put tolls on them.


----------



## g.spinoza

A recent pronounciation by the Court of Cassation, the highest court of appeal in Italy, deemed "irrational" the construction of first lot of A31 extension northwards. They confirm the ruling by Council of State which in 2019 stated that A31 extension cannot be divided into lots and must be tendered together.









Valdastico nord, la Cassazione conferma lo stop al tratto veneto


Impossibile realizzare separatamente il lotto vicentino: «Pietra tombale sull’opera»




corrieredelveneto.corriere.it





The legal battle was put forward by the municipality of Besenello, which didn't want the extension in the first place, and this ruling most likely will put a definitive end on such a project.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> A recent pronounciation by the Court of Cassation, the highest court of appeal in Italy, deemed "irrational" the construction of first lot of A31 extension northwards. They confirm the ruling by Council of State which in 2019 stated that A31 extension cannot be divided into lots and must be tendered together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valdastico nord, la Cassazione conferma lo stop al tratto veneto
> 
> 
> Impossibile realizzare separatamente il lotto vicentino: «Pietra tombale sull’opera»
> 
> 
> 
> 
> corrieredelveneto.corriere.it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The legal battle was put forward by the municipality of Besenello, which didn't want the extension in the first place, and this ruling most likely will put a definitive end on such a project.


It makes sense. It's a motorway that should either be fully built or not built at all.
It doesn't make sense to spend 1.3 billion euros for 18 km of mountain motorway that will end in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## g.spinoza

Huge pile-up today on A32 Turin-Bardonecchia, between Exilles and Salbertrand.

More than 25 vehicles involved, 30 injured and 2 dead. The accidents seem to have been caused by ice on the road.


----------



## g.spinoza

__





Maxi tamponamento sull’A32, coinvolti 25 veicoli, due morti: chiusa la Torino-Bardonecchia






www.ilsecoloxix.it


----------



## lambersart2005

Heavy congestion today, seems like snow enthusiasts are coming back from the alps


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've noticed that too, I took a screenshot around 5:45 p.m. yesterday:


----------



## bortttt

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've noticed that too, I took a screenshot around 5:45 p.m. yesterday:


Reopenings canceled 5 hours earlier by distinguished minister reappointed


----------



## g.spinoza

There is currently a 40-km-long queue on A22 northbound at the Brenner Pass.
This is due to Covid tests being performed at the border.

















Pagina Non Trovata - Corriere Del Ticino







www.cdt.ch












Covid: 40 km di tir in coda fra Bressanone e Brennero - Veneto


La situazione al confine con l'Austria per le nuove normative covid si fa pesante. Sull'autostrada del Brennero in direzione nord ci sono code di mezzi pesanti fra Bressanone ed il Brennero ovvero per 40 km. (ANSA)




www.ansa.it


----------



## Des

g.spinoza said:


> There is currently a 40-km-long queue on A22 northbound at the Brenner Pass.
> This is due to Covid tests being performed at the border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pagina Non Trovata - Corriere Del Ticino
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdt.ch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid: 40 km di tir in coda fra Bressanone e Brennero - Veneto
> 
> 
> La situazione al confine con l'Austria per le nuove normative covid si fa pesante. Sull'autostrada del Brennero in direzione nord ci sono code di mezzi pesanti fra Bressanone ed il Brennero ovvero per 40 km. (ANSA)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ansa.it


Crazy especially because Austria only closed the IT border because DE is testing at the AT border and Austria doesn't want the Italian trucks to cue in the Inn-Valley and cause polution there.


----------



## Coccodrillo

bortttt said:


> Reopenings canceled 5 hours earlier by distinguished minister reappointed


To be clearer: Italy initially postponed opening of ski lifts to 7th January, then to 15th February, and yesterday evening Sunday the 14th at around 17 to 19 pm they told to the press (apparently not even directly to ski lift operators) that ski lifts cannot open nor this time. This clearly caused protests from people working in ski resorts (including those not directly operating the lifts but also hotels and so on). A lot of people decided to go back home, and just a few decided to remain. What makes particularly angry tourist operators is that they were assured to open, and so started to prepare the slopes, the ski lifts, recruit seasonal staff, buy food for restaurants, etc for nothing - and they don't even know if they will be refunded for their expenses.

Skiing has been taken as a scapegoat by Italian (and French) covid-committee, ministers and press, continuously citing a few cases of crowds waiting of lifts in Italy* and Switzerland, while in Switzerland I haven't heard since of much overcrowding, except a few spots every now and then. In particular, I went skiing on weekdays in minor resors with no crowding problem at all, and actually seeing a lot less people than going shopping in big shopping centres (which are closed in Switzerland but open in Italy).

*actually a few ski resorts in Italy opened and operated a few days around October-November, during which time effectively many people were seen grouping together prompting the government to close the lifts, in addition to that a few lifts are still open for ski comeptitions and trainings


----------



## bortttt

Coccodrillo said:


> A lot of people decided to go back home, and just a few decided to remain.


To be clearer: I was simply saying that on Sunday so many people went up to their second homes with the hope of skiing. That's why there is all this confusion


----------



## ChrisZwolle

italystf said:


> 17 people are missing after the collapse of the bridge on the Sesia river between Romagnano and Gattinara, Piedmont.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maltempo Piemonte, crolla il ponte tra Romagnano e Gattinara sul fiume Sesia. I dispersi sono 22
> 
> 
> Gravi i danni causati dal maltempo in Piemonte. Nel Vercellese il ponte che collegava Gallinara a Romagnano è crollato a seguito di una piena del fiume...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fanpage.it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


The construction of a temporary replacement bridge has started today. It's scheduled to be completed in 140 days: 



https://www.novaratoday.it/attualita/inizio-lavori-ponte-romagnano.html


----------



## g.spinoza

Next Friday the 26th a 2-km stretch of SS 640 will open, around junction "Caltanissetta Nord".









SS 640: venerdì aprirà un nuovo tratto della Agrigento-Caltanissetta


I lavori nel cantiere della SS 640 “Agrigento-Caltanissetta” non si […]




www.ilfattonisseno.it


----------



## g.spinoza

Section Bassano Ovest - Montebelluna of SPV (Superstrada Pedemontana Veneta) is going to open before 30th April.
The stretch is ~ 20 km long and will feature the junctions Bassano Est, Loria/Mussolente, Riese/S. Zenone degli Ezzelini.









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org













Entro il 30 aprile verrà inaugurato il tratto da Bassano Ovest a Montebelluna della Pedemontana Veneta


Ultimi preparativi per l’apertura del tratto di Pedemontana Veneta da Bassano Ovest a Montebelluna. Il nuovo tratto della superstrada a pedaggio verrà aperto entro il 30 aprile. Con l’inaugurazione del nuovo tratto la Pedemontana Veneta sarà dunque pienamente percorribile da Montebelluna a Malo...




www.qdpnews.it


----------



## brick84

*Campania*

_SS 145 "Statale Sorrentina" Pompei-Sorrento_


----------



## g.spinoza

Cycle paths, Italian style.
This one in Cagliari:


----------



## McBeans

It’s great to see segregated bicycles paths being build to give people more options to decide the best mode of transportation for their specific journey that day. But you repaved the road people! Allowing for a full reconfiguration. This Is not budget running out. This is visible on the drawing board. 🤦‍♂️


----------



## g.spinoza

McBeans said:


> This Is not budget running out.


No. Just incompetence.


----------



## brick84

*Highway A1*

_Autogrill Casilina Est - Frosinone_ (Lazio)



















































Archeo Mall | Progetto CMR


Progetto CMR guida il cambiamento. Il cliente è sempre al centro del nostro fare architettura. L’integrazione dei processi garantisce il costante controllo di costi, tempi e qualità.




www.progettocmr.com


----------



## g.spinoza

Second phase of the so called "Piano rientro strade" of ANAS, the plan according to which previously downgraded road (from ANAS to regions and provinces) are going to be transferred back to ANAS.

In 2018, 3513 km of roads in 11 regions have already been transferred to ANAS. In April 2021, other 3000 km in 4 regions (Emilia-Romagna, Lombardia, Piemonte and Toscana) will be too.






Rientro Strade







www.stradeanas.it


----------



## brick84

*Sardinia*

_SS 729 Olbia-Sassari_


----------



## legolego

*MONTE BIANCO TUNNEL [T1]*


----------



## g.spinoza

Preliminary project of "possible" future motorway Bergamo-Treviglio (A4-A35)










legolego said:


> ^^ dovrebbe essere questa l'ultima versione di "fattibilità"
> 
> View attachment 1414445


----------



## g.spinoza

The "transumanza" (cattle drive) on Passo San Boldo hairpins, in Veneto:


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> The "transumanza" (cattle drive) on Passo San Boldo hairpins, in Veneto:


This road, famous for having a tunnel on every hairpin tursìns, was built by soldiers in WWI.


----------



## g.spinoza

Works for the doubling of SS16 "Adriatica", from Falconara (junction with SS76) to Torrette di Ancona, have started.
It's a 188 156 M€ project (after awarding the tender to Inc Turin), 7.3 km long, with 700 m of tunnels and 900 of viaducts, with expected completion date in 2024.









Raddoppio della SS16 Adriatica da Falconara a Torrette, Baldelli: "Forte accelerazione ai lavori per le quattro corsie" - Oltrefano.it


Raddoppio della SS16 Adriatica da Falconara a Torrette, Baldelli: "Forte accelerazione ai lavori per le quattro corsie", "Cantiere dopo cantiere, prendono forma le Marche interconnesse e intermodali che la Giunta Acquaroli, insieme agli altri partner quali Anas, RFI,




www.oltrefano.it













OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


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## g.spinoza

SPV (Superstrada Pedemontana Veneta) stretch from Bassano Ovest to Montebelluna (35 km) is going to open next 28 May.









IL PROGETTO TREVISO Adesso c'è anche la data: venerdì 28 maggio. Giorno


IL PROGETTOTREVISO Adesso c'è anche la data: venerdì 28 maggio. Giorno da segnare sul calendario e da ricordare, perché sarà quello dell'inaugurazione del primo tratto di Pedemontana nella Marca,...




www.ilgazzettino.it




(behind paywall)









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


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## g.spinoza

A drawbridge collapsed this morning in La Spezia. The bridge was moving to its rest position after being opened for the transit of a boat. No car or boats were damaged, no one was hurt.









La Spezia, cede un ponte mobile al porto, era appena passata una barca: "Un tonfo fortissimo". Era stato controllato il 24 marzo


I dipendenti della ditta Art Sub sotto shock, ma sono andati a lavorare, per fortuna non ci sono feriti




genova.repubblica.it










Location:








Google Maps


Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.




www.google.it


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## g.spinoza

Viaduct Villa Ragone on A12 near Sestri Levante has been closed for heavy trucks.

It seems that urgent works are needed:









A12, viadotto Ragone chiuso ai mezzi pesanti. Aspi: «Ma non è in dubbio la stabilità»


Le Autostrade: «in corso interventi di progettazione per adeguamento a parametri definiti dall’attuale normativa». L’assessore Giampedrone: «Sconcertante. Aspi apra subito i caselli e renda gratuito il tratto». Conti (Città Metropolitana): «Ho scritto il 20 agosto 2020 alla Società indicando le...




genovaquotidiana.com


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## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> SPV (Superstrada Pedemontana Veneta) stretch from Bassano Ovest to Montebelluna (35 km) is going to open next 28 May.


I found a non-paywalled article: https://www.trevisotoday.it/attualita/pedemontana-maggio-inaugurazione-montebelluna-bassano.html

That would be this section:


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## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> Viaduct Villa Ragone on A12 near Sestri Levante has been closed for heavy trucks.


The rebar situation looks pretty bad. And judging by Street View, the rebar was out in the open all the way back to 2008: Google Maps

This could lead to extensive corrosive damage. Especially this close to the sea where the air may be more salty (that was said to be a possible factor in the Morandi Bridge collapse).


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## ChrisZwolle

The A18 extension in Silicy, from Rosolini to Ispica, is planned to be opened on 28 June:









Autostrada Siracusa-Gela: il 28 giugno verrà aperto il tratto Rosolini-Ispica - Mobilita.org


Spread the lovemore“Il 28 giugno verrà aperto il tratto Rosolini-Ispica facente parte dell’autostrada A18 Siracusa-Gela”. Lo afferma Salvatore Minaldi, direttore generale del Consorzio autostrade siciliane, a “La Sicilia”. I Lotti 6 + 7 “Ispica e Viadotti Scardina e Salvia”, della lunghezza di...




mobilita.org


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A18 extension in Silicy, from Rosolini to Ispica, is planned to be opened on 28 June:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Autostrada Siracusa-Gela: il 28 giugno verrà aperto il tratto Rosolini-Ispica - Mobilita.org
> 
> 
> Spread the lovemore“Il 28 giugno verrà aperto il tratto Rosolini-Ispica facente parte dell’autostrada A18 Siracusa-Gela”. Lo afferma Salvatore Minaldi, direttore generale del Consorzio autostrade siciliane, a “La Sicilia”. I Lotti 6 + 7 “Ispica e Viadotti Scardina e Salvia”, della lunghezza di...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mobilita.org


If so, it will be opened 3.5 years later than originally announced in June 2014 when works started. Should we call it a "German job"? 



g.spinoza said:


> Tomorrow, 4th June, works are going to begin on A18 - lots 6,7,8 from Rosolini to Modica. Length 19 km, *completion date: 1 January 2018.*


----------



## bortttt

MichiH said:


> If so, it will be opened 3.5 years later than originally announced in June 2014 when works started. Should we call it a "German job"?


What's more, the central guard rail is out of standard


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## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> If so, it will be opened 3.5 years later than originally announced in June 2014 when works started. Should we call it a "German job"?


In Italy, Germany is seen as a model of efficiency. "These things would not happen there..."


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## MichiH

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣


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## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> In Italy, Germany is seen as a model of efficiency. "These things would not happen there..."


Most of times it’s true. Just the opposite as in Italy.
A german says:”Shit, happens!” and a italian replies:”Always, ultra!”


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## MichiH

pccvspw999 said:


> Most of times it’s true. Just the opposite as in Italy.
> A german says:”Shit, happens!” and a italian replies:”Always, ultra!”


Not about construction! Virtually no German public construction project (road, railway, airport) is done on schedule or within the budget. There is usually no outcry because it is just normal.


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## Mateusz864

pccvspw999 said:


> Most of times it’s true. Just the opposite as in Italy.
> A german says:”Shit, happens!” and a italian replies:”Always, ultra!”


"these things" also happen in Germany - see the _infamous_ story of the Berlin's airport construction, which for many years has been the best reason for mocking Germans on the Polish forum


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## pccvspw999

MichiH said:


> Not about construction! Virtually no German public construction project (road, railway, airport) is done on schedule or within the budget. There is usually no outcry because it is just normal.


It is Italy that is far from being normal, even in delays. In this You are right: it’s a “german Job” as it is in “normal” delay.


----------



## brick84

Other news from sicilian highways.

Information panels & New Jersey are being installed along the *"Tangenziale di Catania"*:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Toll road concession news: We continue to grow in Italy with the operation of 320 km of highways

_We have won, by way of SIS consortium, formed by Fininc and Sacyr, the operation rights of five concessioned highway sections in the vicinity of Turin: A21 Turin-Alessandria-Piacenza and A5 Turin-Ivrea-Quincinetto, the connecting highway A4/A5 Ivrea-Santhià and Turin’s Beltway Highways System (Sistema Autostradale Tangenziale Torinese, Satt, in Italian) and the Turin-Pinerolo stretch.

These infrastructures, already operational, total 320 kilometers, require an 800-million-euro investment and a total turnover of 3,700 million.

This contract, granted by granted by the Italian Ministry for Infrastructures and Transport, estimates a revenue by traffic of more than 2,900 million euros for the 12-year concession term.

These highways have an estimated *average daily traffic of close to 33,000 vehicles*._


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## g.spinoza

Region Veneto started a procedure for requesting formal upgrade of SPV, from its current "superstrada" status (extra-urban main road) to that of "autostrada".



Dettaglio Deliberazione della Giunta Regionale - Bollettino Ufficiale della Regione del Veneto


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## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

New stretch "_Rosolini-Ispica/Pozzallo" _with *new junction "Ispica-Pozzallo" *ready for opening (28 June):


----------



## g.spinoza

Project for 3rd lane on A22 between Modena (A1) and Verona (A4):



https://va.minambiente.it/File/Documento/507181



Have a look at the new connection A22-A1 around page 82. It is a bit puzzling that A22 north -> A1 east, which is one of the most congested ramps, is downgraded from a trumpet to a partial cloverleaf, albeit with 2 lanes.
Most other solutions make little sense. Flyovers are reserved for the less congested routes (A1 west -> A22 north or A1 east -> A22 south), plus there is one useless flyover from A22 south... to A22 north!


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## ChrisZwolle

I wasn't aware that A22 is so busy on that stretch. Google Maps always shows the congestion between Verona and Bolzano. 

It appears that A22 has been designed with space for six lanes in mind.

The plans for the A1/A22 interchange looks interesting as well. Will A22 be extended south of A1?


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> I wasn't aware that A22 is so busy on that stretch. Google Maps always shows the congestion between Verona and Bolzano.
> 
> It appears that A22 has been designed with space for six lanes in mind.
> 
> The plans for the A1/A22 interchange looks interesting as well. Will A22 be extended south of A1?


I wouldn't say A22 is congested per se, but the relation A22 north <-> A1 east is by far the most trafficked. It isn't unusual for those coming from A22 north to experience long delays at the A1 junction.
The problem is that, just after the end of the ramp, on A1 there are a rest area and the Modena north junction... it gets messy.
A22 was indeed designed with third lane expansion in mind, at least on Modena-Verona stretch, just like A21 is between Brescia and Piacenza.

A22 is going to be extended south towards the ceramic district of Sassuolo. I think preliminary works are ongoing, but maybe only war ordnance clearance.


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> plus there is one useless flyover from A22 south... to A22 north!


Probably to make it easier to leave the motorway at the next exit (Campogalliano) and not to disrupt traffic from A1 to A22 north.


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## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Probably to make it easier to leave the motorway at the next exit (Campogalliano) and not to disrupt traffic from A1 to A22 north.


Maybe. But Campogalliano is not that busy a junction to deserve a dedicated flyover.


----------



## Verso

^^ It's just a short connection, the rest of the flyover will serve traffic from A1 west to A22 north. Imagine having to move 4 lanes to the right to get to Campogalliano.


----------



## Ni3lS

Video from this month of the A1 around Florence. From 6:00 you can see an update on the widening to 2x3 of a remaining stretch until 2023.


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## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Apparently you can't overtake anywhere on this road. This is absurd, and nobody will comply.
> Such a road, in any other country (France and Austria come to mind) would have dashed center line everywhere.


Agreed, was also my first thought. The second was: why for all the sake they made no speeding lanes to enter the road but "stop" lines?! Both things make me sick.


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## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> why for all the sake they made no speeding lanes to enter the road but "stop" lines?!


Accelerating lanes in junctions is now illegal in Italy for "high frequentation roads", they must have a STOP sign. I posted some pictures a few months ago on the Nuova Bazzanese road near Bologna, and I think I also posted legal reference, but I can't find them any more.


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## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> Accelerating lanes in junctions is now illegal in Italy for "high frequentation roads", they must have a STOP sign. I posted some pictures a few months ago on the Nuova Bazzanese road near Bologna, and I think I also posted legal reference, but I can't find them any more.


Yes I remmber, but the question "why" is still valid for this absurd rule. If and only if the rule is correctly interpreted.


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## bortttt

pccvspw999 said:


> Yes I remmber, but the question "why" is still valid for this absurd rule. If and only if the rule is correctly interpreted.


because in italy at junctions without a central island, people take them the wrong way round!

the eastern ring road of udine is full of these phenomena.










people see the exit on the left, put on their blinkers, stop and go the wrong way. in this case the fault is that there is first the junction on the other side and therefore there has been a wrong planning, but it also happens where the planning is done correctly, for example because a person forgot to get out.

in this case the fault is that there is first the junction on the other side and therefore there has been a wrong planning, but it also happens where the planning is done correctly, for example because a person forgot to get out


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## g.spinoza

bortttt said:


> in this case the fault is that there is first the junction on the other side and therefore there has been a wrong planning, but it also happens where the planning is done correctly, for example because a person forgot to get out


I strongly disagree. This is not bad planning's fault. The fault is with people who cannot read a solid or double solid line in the center of the road, which means you cannot go wrong way.
I don't see why, to prevent some moronic people from doing moronic stuff, you should lessen the quality of the drive for all others.


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## pccvspw999

bortttt said:


> because in italy at junctions without a central island, people take them the wrong way round!
> [...]


That's not an excuse to make roads worse and even more dangerous: italians have an attitude towards "stop" sign even worse than to solid lines.
There is a solid line, don't cross it!
I cannot stick to Your definition of "wrong planning". Planning is done accordingly to given circumstances, but not considering the disrepect of the simpliest driving rules. Trying to prevent wrong behaviour by planning roads that make it impossible, is only costly a far from effective: there is always a SOB that makes a mess!
Road must be planned safe assuming driving rules respected, the rest is only waste of time and money.


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## bortttt

g.spinoza said:


> I strongly disagree. This is not bad planning's fault. The fault is with people who cannot read a solid or double solid line in the center of the road, which means you cannot go wrong way.
> I don't see why, to prevent some moronic people from doing moronic stuff, you should lessen the quality of the drive for all others.


At least one idiot takes the wrong way round that junction every day. I think the only solution is to prevent it with additional measures and not to leave it as it is. The solution instead of stop signs? Put up a nice new jersey at each junction, and force people to return from overtaking, with perhaps higher risks of accidents.


I've never said that the solution adopted is right or wrong, I've only explained why it is so. And of even worse junctions it seems to me that @itp2096 has posted others.



pccvspw999 said:


> That's not an excuse to make roads worse and even more dangerous: italians have an attitude towards "stop" sign even worse than to solid lines.
> There is a solid line, don't cross it!
> I cannot stick to Your definition of "wrong planning". Planning is done accordingly to given circumstances, but not considering the disrepect of the simpliest driving rules. Trying to prevent wrong behaviour by planning roads that make it impossible, is only costly a far from effective: there is always a SOB that makes a mess!
> Road must be planned safe assuming driving rules respected, the rest is only waste of time and money.


*The problem is not the stop sign, but the people who take the exit slip road the wrong way round.
the stop sign is forced to let people know that they are entering from the wrong side of the junction*


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## g.spinoza

bortttt said:


> At least one idiot takes the wrong way round that junction every day. I think the only solution is to prevent it with additional measures and not to leave it as it is. The solution instead of stop signs? Put up a nice new jersey at each junction, and force people to return from overtaking, with perhaps higher risks of accidents.
> 
> 
> I've never said that the solution adopted is right or wrong, I've only explained why it is so. And of even worse junctions it seems to me that @itp2096 has posted others.


There must be something wrong with people from Udine if once per day this happens... 
Never heard anything like that anywhere else.

Anyway, my solution would be to put these to reinforce the "solid middle line" message:


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## pccvspw999

bortttt said:


> [...]
> *The problem is not the stop sign, but the people who take the exit slip road the wrong way round.
> the stop sign is forced to let people know that they are entering from the wrong side of the junction*


I'm not talking about the "stop" against those entering the wrong way, which may be effective, but the attitude of those entering the road and not stopping at the sign. You avoid, probably the first ones, but the second ones are more common and more dangerous!
Furthermore: the acute angle formed by the ramp with the mainroad, possibly after a slope, is a "lethal weapon" put in front of those coming from the other direction. Just a wrong turn and...


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## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> There must be something wrong with people from Udine if once per day this happens...
> Never heard anything like that anywhere else.
> 
> Anyway, my solution would be to put these to reinforce the "solid middle line" message:


This is the solution for older roads. Newer roads have to have speeding lanes and solid separation, not a "stop" which is absurd.
Or a crossing at grade with light or a roundabout. But not this evil "stop" sing.
A "stop" because it's a dangerous situation, but a dangerous situation created by putting there a "stop".


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## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> This is the solution for older roads. Newer roads have to have speeding lanes and solid separation, not a "stop" which is absurd.
> Or a crossing at grade with light or a roundabout. But not this evil "stop" sing.
> A "stop" because it's a dangerous situation, but a dangerous situation created by putting there a "stop".


What I mean is, by putting solid dividers in the middle of the road, you don't have to downgrade ramps and put the stop signs: you can leave the acceleration ramps.


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## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> What I mean is, by putting solid dividers in the middle of the road, you don't have to downgrade ramps and put the stop signs: you can leave the acceleration ramps.


Yes, I've understood. I just pointed out the other options available but the "stop".


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## bortttt

g.spinoza said:


> There must be something wrong with people from Udine if once per day this happens...


Don't worry, it doesn't only happen in udine, but in almost all cat Cs, only the udine cat C has a design in which the inlet in the opposite direction is faster than the exit. Fors sample, happening in Campodarsego in SR308 or Soncino in SP235. 

It happens in all cases where there is an entry in the opposite direction before the exit, from north to south, not only in udine. In udine I know it happens a lot because two years ago cameras were installed and recorded who was taking the road in the opposite direction and the numbers were really high. In fact they have installed more signs recently. 



g.spinoza said:


> Anyway, my solution would be to put these to reinforce the "solid middle line" message:





pccvspw999 said:


> This is the solution for older roads. Newer roads have to have speeding lanes and solid separation, not a "stop" which is absurd.





g.spinoza said:


> What I mean is, by putting solid dividers in the middle of the road, you don't have to downgrade ramps and put the stop signs: you can leave the acceleration ramps.


So I agree on a separation (a kerb, a rubber kerb, a guardrail, a new jersey, rubber poles, ...) and I also agree that instead of prohibiting the acceleration lanes in a cat C they could impose the use of a separator and the result is better,* even if a kerb needs to force people to return from a possible overtaking, then signs prohibiting overtaking and even longer continuous lines, which already in italy are very long.*


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## Stuu

g.spinoza said:


> I don't see why, to prevent some moronic people from doing moronic stuff, you should lessen the quality of the drive for all others.


That ship has sailed, a long time ago. The world is full of examples of things done to try to protect morons from themselves, with a negative effect on everyone else


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## g.spinoza

Stuu said:


> That ship has sailed, a long time ago. The world is full of examples of things done to try to protect morons from themselves, with a negative effect on everyone else


We Europeans pride ourselves on being smarter than people from America, where Starbucks must write on coffee cups "Caution! It's hot" to avoid lawsuits from moronic people who don't know that coffee is hot... I guess we are not that smarter...


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## ChrisZwolle

I was out for a run yesterday and came across an example illustrating that. The give way sign is not sufficient. It must be on a yellow background to get more attention. And this is also not sufficient, there must be an additional sign warning for cyclists.


pas op fietsers by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Stuu

g.spinoza said:


> We Europeans pride ourselves on being smarter than people from America, where Starbucks must write on coffee cups "Caution! It's hot" to avoid lawsuits from moronic people who don't know that coffee is hot... I guess we are not that smarter...


We do, but they aren't as dumb as we often assume... the coffee warning is because of malpractice by McDonald's, not the inherent stupidity of Americans


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## g.spinoza

Stuu said:


> We do, but they aren't as dumb as we often assume... the coffee warning is because of malpractice by McDonald's, not the inherent stupidity of Americans


Malpractice? To me, holding a cardboard cupful of coffee between your legs while doing something else is sheer stupidity.
However, mine was just an example. What about:


































and I may go on...


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## ChrisZwolle

Or: Google Maps suggests ‘potentially fatal’ routes up Ben Nevis, say mountain charities


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## Stuu

g.spinoza said:


> Malpractice? To me, holding a cardboard cupful of coffee between your legs while doing something else is sheer stupidity.
> However, mine was just an example. What about:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I may go on...


On second thoughts, you're right, they really are dumb. The map is conclusive


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## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> […] one in South Tyrol (for doing a terrifying 35 in a 30 km/h limited Baustelle)[…]


That means You were driving in reality at 40km/h. And it is not trivial anymore. And you payed € 42 (or only € 29,40) and “no points” which is quite fair: you made a mistake, and you had to pay.


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## ChrisZwolle

keber said:


> In Italy I drive mostly by feeling - as most others drivers do. Maybe for us from south Europe it is easier but I believe for people from the orderly north and west it is more difficult.


It becomes a kind of 'free-for-all' that Italy is notorious for in Northern Europe. However Spain doesn't have the same culture, driving tends to be more orderly there. Italy and Spain are very different in spatial development though.


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## pccvspw999

In Italy speed limits are mainly arbitrary for a multitude of reasons:

"speed" is "bad", we shall all be "slow". That means: the "others" shall be slow, but not me.
nobody shall be charged in responsability for having allowed an higher speed.
people is desirespectful, so let us lower the speed limit.
arbitrary speed limits allows to fine drivers when administrations need money.
a.s.o.
In Italy You will rarely find variable or suggested speed limits, but hundreds of provisional speed limits taht became "indefinitely".

I drive since more than 30 years, and I'm not a "slow" driver, but I take care. I've never been fined for speeding (It may occur, it's only a matter of probability). Two times I was "flashed" in Switzerland but never got the fine (probably because I wasn't the only vehicle on the picture).
In my opinion: who collects more than 3 fines for speeding (>+10 km/h) in his lifetime, driving in Italy, he speeds always, sistematically and often being dangerous. Why? Due to the same reasons why speed limits are arbitrary, these are not enforced as it may occur abroad. There are not "road safety" concerns to enforce them, just granting income for the state.
Of course there are speed limits to be respected slavishly, but it is really difficult to argue where and when. I hope I was never really dangerous for others, but I certainly was. Luckily nothing happened, and I hope never will.


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## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> That means You were driving in reality at 40km/h. And it is not trivial anymore. And you payed € 42 (or only € 29,40) and “no points” which is quite fair: you made a mistake, and you had to pay.


I paid. But 35 or 40 makes no fricking difference. Btw, I think the official recorded speed was 32. Just your regular Batman in his Batmobile.


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## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> In my opinion: who collects more than 3 fines for speeding (>+10 km/h) in his lifetime, driving in Italy, he speeds always, sistematically and often being dangerous.


This is only your opinion, and you know what they say about them.

It's plain wrong. 

Do you really drive 60 in an empty construction zone of a motorway, with no personnel? If you do, you're the one who's dangerous.


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## FiveYears

Who is the one who estimated speed limit here? You can not drive properly even if you want.. 









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


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## g.spinoza

FiveYears said:


> Who is the one who estimated speed limit here? You can not drive properly even if you want..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


I think it's due to the substandard intersections. But again, limits in Italy are often irrational and impossible to comply.


----------



## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> […]
> Do you really drive 60 in an empty construction zone of a motorway, with no personnel? If you do, you're the one who's dangerous.


Even if I would do, and I don’t, I’m still not the one who is dangerous, but those who don’t comply. By definition.
(BTW: during works for the widening of A4 from MI-TO, the worksites were so nasty, that driving over 80km/h was always dangerous, and I sticked to those limits even if I was alone on the road).
Yours is the typical justification of italian “bad drivers” (doesn’t mean that i think You’re one of them): it is always someone else to be blamed, even if he stick to rules.


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## pccvspw999

FiveYears said:


> Who is the one who estimated speed limit here? You can not drive properly even if you want..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


Probably it is due to the “bumpy road” sign some 50m ahead: just to avoid any responsability if someone gets hurt, instead of restoring the road to allow normal 90km/h.


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## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> I think it's due to the substandard intersections. But again, limits in Italy are often irrational and impossible to comply.


Why do You think it is “substandard”? It’s a straight road with “right of way”, and the intersections allow plenty of visibility in any direction. 90 km/h is fully feasable.


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## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> Why do You think it is “substandard”? It’s a straight road with “right of way”, and the intersections allow plenty of visibility in any direction. 90 km/h is fully feasable.


You think that a perpendicular intersection with no acceleration lanes, no grade separation, no nothing, is safe or legal at 90 km/h? That explains many of your last posts. 

Look, I lived in Germany and always complied to their rules. But some of them are stupid and dangerous: do you think it is safe to have unlimited speed on a motorway and then slam your brakes to 80 because there's a limited tunnel ahead? Or, why secondary roads abroad (I am thinking at France, Austria and Spain) often have a dashed middle line, while in Italy it's always solid? Phyiscs is no different in those countries, so if it's safe to overtake there, it must be safe in Italy too.

I usually obey to the rules, but not when they're plain stupid. Blind compliance may put you on the legal safe side, but it's not always the best solution in terms of safety.


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## pccvspw999

Yes, that perpendicular intersection is safe for 90 km/h, or even more. BUT... what traffic do the both roads carry? The “standard” for the intersection depends only on this factor.
Without knowing if there is plenty of traffic (do you know?) it is not possible to describe that intersection as “substandard”.
Germany: there is no compulsory speed limit, right, but there is a recommended one. And normaly You find a sequence of speed reductions: 120-100-80, at a given distance. There is no reason for “slamming brakes” (it’s also forbidden, as it is “dangerous driving”): if You’re driving >130 and You’re not able do comply to the speed limits than You’ll get possibly fined (maybe). But at the end, in the tunnel itself I drive at 80km/h.
Solid lines: in Italy the is an abuse of them, but it does not make me ignore them: there maybe really a “clear and present danger” why they have been drawn.
I agree that “blind complianace” maybe unsafe, but is always because of those that don’t. And if I do not comply, I accept the possibility to get fined: it’s part of the job, no excuses permitted.
On the other hand, if someone decides to comply, I’ll not be angry or anxious for his behaviour: he is right, not me, and I keep my distance.

Nevertheless: I still make mistakes. Luckly nothing irreparable happened to others.


----------



## verreme

Solid lanes are another big issue in Italy. There are almost no stretches were overtaking is allowed so no one respects the laws and people overtake regardless of it being legal/safe or not. You see very dangerous overtaking in Italy whereas in most western European countries it is very rare.

I think the "if we ban things, people will still do them, and if we allow them, they will do worse" mentality is wrong. It's the 21st century, there are ways to actually enforce traffic laws and it is extremely annoying to drive not knowing which stupid rules you can break without getting caught and which you can't.


----------



## pccvspw999

Using solid lines to prevent overtaking is also a misuse. There is a specific sing to prohibit overtaking, doesn’t matter if there is a dashed or solid line. And this sing shall always be used when overtaking is dangerous, not the solid line instead.
Solid lines must be used only when it is dangerous to cross the line itself, even if it is only for a couple of cm, no matter what You are supposed to do (overtaking is only one of possible actions, and if the lane is wide enough you can overtake when You don’t need to cross the line). Using a solid line prevents also motorbikes from overtaking (if the lane is narrow), when in most cases this won’t be a safety concern at all.
Solid lines must not be crossed at any time for any reason. Belittle this meaning of the sing by misuse is very, very dangerous.


----------



## intersezioni

keber said:


> I noticed that already many times, but especially in last two years when I drove quite a lot over SS roads to avoid congested autostradas.
> Examples: Ravenna bypass, almost continuous 50 km/h speed limit despite having 4 lanes;
> Ravenna-Ferrara road, almost whole route absurd speed limits, even on newer parts in the middle of fields;
> g.spinoza mentioned A14 - I agree, I drove it a month ago. Not really new 6-lane section has even speed limits 70 km/h on some parts.
> Also some roadworks speed limits are absurd, like 30 km/h outside of towns because of some works off the road
> It is often very difficult to see, where does 50 km/h limit starts for urban area.
> 
> In Italy I drive mostly by feeling - as most others drivers do. Maybe for us from south Europe it is easier but I believe for people from the orderly north and west it is more difficult. However I'm wondering what will happen over years when more and more cars will have speed limit recognition and automatic braking.


repubblica .it , In Italy: Over 116 thousand reports against the highway code in 2018 on foreign license plates, many from "northern Europe"


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's not that much compared to the 2.5 million speeding tickets for foreign drivers in France in 2019: https://www.thelocal.fr/20201105/fr...ers-with-25-million-tickets-issued-last-year/


----------



## intersezioni

Swiss plates run like they are on a formula one circuit when I'm on the motorway in my area


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's not that much compared to the 2.5 million speeding tickets for foreign drivers in France in 2019: https://www.thelocal.fr/20201105/fr...ers-with-25-million-tickets-issued-last-year/


Two of them are mine...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I have not gotten a speeding ticket in France since I've started using Waze. I think the last ones were in 2014, all for driving like 94 in a 90 zone on a motorway. Nowadays I just set the cruise control, going a little over a low speed limit is easily done without noticing it.

At first I thought such a sign was just another 'motto sign', but later I realized that they are almost always followed by a speed camera.


----------



## PovilD

We in Lithuania used them until few years ago, now we switched to UK-style radar sign.

Before:









After:









This one is almost a copy of French one:


----------



## g.spinoza

kokomo said:


> i was referring to a situation where you reach a toll booth on a secondary exit where the only way to get out gets blocked because the driver is deliberating how the heck is going to pay because he does not understand the language. Shall he get off the car and try figuring out?
> 
> In other words: You are driving the car. You get to the booth. Nobody opens the window when you reach. There is no way to pay to a machine either placing card or inserting bills. And, finally, the turnpike is open.
> Are you doing what? Stay there until someone appears?
> 
> That was what I referring to, and the situation from my understanding happened to the previous poster. If I am wrong correct me @MichiH


Approach the booth, press the button that opens a communication with customer care. They usually - not always, alas - speak languages, English at least.


----------



## MichiH

kokomo said:


> That was what I referring to, and the situation from my understanding happened to the previous poster. If I am wrong correct me @MichiH





g.spinoza said:


> Approach the booth, press the button that opens a communication with customer care. They usually - not always, alas - speak languages, English at least.


Yep, I didn't press the button, and there was another booth. I expected getting a fine but.... I just got it 2 years later


----------



## Coccodrillo

I have read somewhere that if you can't pay at the exit* toll booth for whatever reason a camera will take a picture of the plate and send the bill to the owner without extra costs, at least for vehicles with Italian plates. I don't know what happens with foreigners.

If you have a Telepass transponder and the toll booth cannot read it, again the plate is photographed and the toll settled manually.

I hope we will have a single European tolling system soon. Telepass for light vehicles already can be used in France, Spain and Portugal (IIRC), and there is also some compatibility also for truck transponders.

I also hope that Italian companies will make things easier for non-Italian residents and citizens. For years, it was impossible to have a Telepass transponder without an Italian bank account, refill an Italian prepaid SIM card without an italian credit card, I even know who 15 years ago had to give a fake home address (actually a friend's home one, used to receive some mail) to enroll in a public university (because the university thought there was no life outside Italy, San Marino and the Vatican City). Not to speak of the ubiquitous tax code (codice fiscale), they ask it everywhere, sometimes even to simply order something online, so one have to give a false tax code or to find a workaround. I actually read that, as the tax code is calculated from your name, birth date and place of birth, it is common in Italy to give false but realistic tax codes in such cases (as two persons with the same name-birth date-place of birth would have the same code, one of them receives a manually chosen different tax code, that's why only the official code is officially legal).

*or at the single toll booth in the open systems like A8-A9-southern A12-A32


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> I have read somewhere that if you can't pay at the exit* toll booth for whatever reason a camera will take a picture of the plate and send the bill to the owner without extra costs, at least for vehicles with Italian plates. I don't know what happens with foreigners.
> 
> If you have a Telepass transponder and the toll booth cannot read it, again the plate is photographed and the toll settled manually.


That's not entirely true.

If you don't pay at the toll booth you have to actively ask at the booth itself for the so called "missed payment report". It is a receipt where it is stated the price you owe and the way to pay for it. You have to pay within 15 days. 

If you don't do that, you receive a reminder in your mail (that's when cameras get into the picture, no pun intended), I think with a small extra. You have 50 days.

If you still don't do that, then matters ho into the hands of police and you get a fine.


----------



## brick84

*"Superstrada" Milano-Meda*

new Q8 fuel station













source: Chef Express e Q8 presentano il flagship di Paderno Dugnano | Gdoweek


----------



## Ni3lS

Some impressive infrastructure on the A1VAR between Bologna and Florence, quite similar to the A10 in Liguria except for the missing coastline


----------



## brick84

SS 640 Agrigento Caltanissetta (Sicily)

Demolition of old viaduct "Salso" closed the A19 junction


----------



## sven_engelen

The A22 is one of Europe's most scenic highways through the Alps. The A22 runs from Milano to Brenner and I have filmed it from Bolzano to Brenner. The A22 has a tight alignement with a maximum speed of 110 km/h and that speed is quite doable on this tight highway. Enjoy the ride!


----------



## bortttt

sven_engelen said:


> The A22 runs from Milano to Brenner


_Modena_


----------



## italystf

The Ponte dell'industria, a steel road bridge built in 1863 over Tevere River in Rome, has been destroyed by a fire. There are no casualities reported.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponte_dell%27Industria










Roma, incendio al "Ponte di ferro" a Ostiense: blackout nei quartieri vicini. Le ipotesi delle fiamme dalle baracche, come 8 anni fa - Il video


Esclusa la presenza di feriti nell'incendio, mentre si lavora per mettere in sicurezza la struttura, che non rischia di crollare. Il ponte però sarà inevitabilmente chiuso, con enormi disagi per il traffico a Sud-Est della Capitale




www.open.online


----------



## g.spinoza

A6 Turin-Savona is closed since this morning during to the bad weather that already caused inundation and bridge collapses in many parts of Liguria









Maltempo, chiusa l’autostrada A6 Torino-Savona. Sospesa anche la circolazione dei treni


Lo stop al traffico è stato deciso in via precauzionale dalla società per le «condizioni meteo avverse»




torino.corriere.it


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Apparently A26 is also closed:












https://www.telecitynews24.it/cronaca/erro-cartosio-piena/


----------



## g.spinoza

From the Italian forum, thanks to @legolego , some pictures of A15 northern extension, near Parma, updated September 2021:


----------



## verreme

^^ this stretch was already under construction in my 2017 trip to Parma. Why is it taking so long, and when is it supposed to open? What about its continuation northwards?


----------



## g.spinoza

verreme said:


> ^^ this stretch was already under construction in my 2017 trip to Parma. Why is it taking so long, and when is it supposed to open? What about its continuation northwards?


It was scheduled for 2019, then 2021, now 2022. Really few information are available about this project.
No news for its continuation, even though four Provinces (Mantova, Verona, Cremona and Parma) recently urged the government to accelerate the process.


----------



## g.spinoza

First snow at Stelvio pass:


















Neve al passo dello Stelvio, serve l'attrezzatura invernale - Trentino AA/S


Il fronte del freddo porta un anticipo d'inverno sopra i 1.500 metri (ANSA)




www.ansa.it


----------



## Coccodrillo

This stub was built by the concessionaire of the A15 just to have its concession renewed, right? What was exactly the agreement? What did it include?

This stub is nearly useless, even if there is no junction on A1 nearby now, so for nearby towns it is still an improvement (not much mecause of the motorway itself, but because it adds a junction).









Trecasali · 43010 Trecasali, Province of Parma, Italy


43010 Trecasali, Province of Parma, Italy




www.google.ch


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> This stub was built by the concessionaire of the A15 just to have its concession renewed, right? What was exactly the agreement? What did it include?
> 
> This stub is nearly useless, even if there is no junction on A1 nearby now, so for nearby towns it is still an improvement (not much mecause of the motorway itself, but because it adds a junction).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trecasali · 43010 Trecasali, Province of Parma, Italy
> 
> 
> 43010 Trecasali, Province of Parma, Italy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.ch


Here an article from 2013 (in Italian) about the whole deal.
Basically Autocisa (the concessionaire) has the concession renewed until the end of the construction, or 31 december 2031 (I guess whatever comes first).
Besides, Autocisa gets to raise the tolls by 7.5% per year for 10 years (I don't know if that's what actually happened).

The deal is complicated by the fact that the future A15 is intertwined with future Autostrada Cispadana (A22-A13) and Cremona-Mantova (A22-A21) to the point that - in the plans - it will have to feature a stretch in common with the latter.


----------



## g.spinoza

It is news from few months ago that A36 "Pedemontana Lombarda", currently built only between A8 at Cassano Magnago and SS35 at Lentate sul Seveso (lots A and B1), won't be completely built as planned at the beginning. Lots B2 and C (from SS35 to A51 at Vimercate) will be built as scheduled, but lot D (A51 to A4 at Dalmine) has been scrapped.

A51 would have to serve as replacement for lot D but there are at least two problems. First, A51 is a low-speed (90 km/h), 4-laned motorway which already sustains a great deal of transit traffic; second, there is no complete interchange between it and A4. Basically, it is impossible to get directly from East to North and viceversa, so people is forced to go through the town of Agrate.

A possible solution is the completion of the interchange. Another possibility, recently put forward by the president of "Autostrada Pedemontana Lombarda", is to built a "shortened lot D", parallel to A51, connecting A36 to A4 and A58 slightly east of Agrate:


----------



## g.spinoza

"Strada dei Parchi", concessionaire of A24 and A25, is putting forward a plan of antiseismic upgrade of all the viaducts in their network.

This time, it was the turn of eastward Le Pastena, on A24, near Villagrande di Tornimparte, above 1000 m:





.









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org





Out of the 13 viaducts affected by this upgrade, 7 have been already demolished and reconstructed.









Proseguono gli abbattimenti sulla A24, nel tratto Roma-L’Aquila: demolito anche il viadotto Le Pastena


In tutto saranno tredici le strutture demolite e poi ricostruite per andare a comporre una tratta antisismica




video.corriere.it


----------



## brick84

*SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta, Sicily*

demolition of viaduct "Salso" for the new expressway

other images








__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=4208758519236220


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Randazzo, Sicily:


----------



## Lombardia1970

New motorway Cispadana in North Italy coming soon


----------



## Lombardia1970

New motorway section Pedemontana Lombarda works start in october 2022


----------



## Luki_SL

Lombardia1970 said:


> New motorway Cispadana in North Italy coming soon





Lombardia1970 said:


> New motorway section Pedemontana Lombarda works start in october 2022


Will these motorways have any numbers ?


----------



## Lombardia1970

Luki_SL said:


> Will these motorways have any numbers ?


Pedemontana is A36 Cispadana i don't know is new


----------



## Lombardia1970

Lombardia1970 said:


> Pedemontana is A36 Cispadana i don't know is new


----------



## MichiH

What about the "Cispadana motorway"? Any future numbering known? What does "soon" mean? Likely to be completed by..... 2030?



Lombardia1970 said:


> New motorway Cispadana in North Italy coming soon
> View attachment 2293141


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> What about the "Cispadana motorway"? Any future numbering known? What does "soon" mean? Likely to be completed by..... 2030?


Soon means nothing.
The good news is just that the government approved a 200 M€ allocation for the motorway construction.
The bad news is that parliament must approve it, plus it will be spread over 6 years.









Cispadana, esulta la Regione: in arrivo 200 milioni di euro dal governo - Cronaca - ilrestodelcarlino.it


Il Comitato No Autostrada frena: "Finanziamento da approvare e diluito in 6 anni"




www.ilrestodelcarlino.it




(in Italian)

By the way, no news about numbering. In Italy it always comes after the construction.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Anyway numbering is usually easy. It is just a progressive number, without a logic behind it like in ES, FR, UK, DE. With a few exceptions:


urban motorways are numbered from A50 onwards
if the ministry has an artistic mood, it will give the road a name instead of a number (Autostrada Catania Siracusa rather than A18, SPV rather than A-something, FI-PI-LI rather than SS or SR-something)
if the ministry is too tired to think, it will just call the new road NSA-something where _something_ is a random number from 1 to 999 (non-progressive), NSA numbers are often even signposted on the road (so as to have a nice excuse to spend again some public money to replace signs a few years later)
if a section is built with different standards and/or belong to different operators, the number changes: A4-RA13-SS202 are the same road, A18-RA15-Autostrada Catania Siracusa-SS114-A18 are again the same road (A18 is used on two sections), A1-A3-A2 dir-A2 idem, if fully built A60 will have SS712 in between, and there are certainly more cases

=================================

A separate question: what is the road with many hairpin turns in tunnels?


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> Anyway numbering is usually easy. It is just a progressive number, without a logic behind it like in ES, FR, UK, DE. With a few exceptions:
> 
> 
> urban motorways are numbered from A50 onwards
> if the ministry has an artistic mood, it will give the road a name instead of a number (Autostrada Catania Siracusa rather than A18, SPV rather than A-something, FI-PI-LI rather than SS or SR-something)
> if the ministry is too tired to think, it wil just call the new road NSA-something where _something_ is a random number from 1 to 999 (non-progressive), NSA numbers are often even signposted on the road (so as to have a nice excuse to spend again some public money to replace signs a few years later)
> if a section is built with different standards and/or belong to different operators, the number changes: A4-RA13-SS202 are the same road, A18-RA15-Autostrada Catania Siracusa-SS114-A18 are again the same road (A18 is used on two sections), A1-A3-A2 dir-A2 idem, if fully built A60 will have SS712 in between, and there are certainly more cases
> 
> =================================
> 
> A separate question: what is the road with many hairpin turns in tunnels?


Passo San Boldo on SP 635.


----------



## g.spinoza

New bridge over river Po, on SP 413 "Romana" between Bagnolo San Vito and San Benedetto Po, has been put in place in these days.

The old bridge was damaged in 2012 during the earthquake, but I think it has been kept open all the time, with speed and weight restrictions.









Google Maps


Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.




www.google.it













Nuovo ponte da record sul Po: maxi campata di 2.800 tonnellate


Il nuovo ponte sul Po in fase di costruzione sulle due sponde di San Benedetto Po e di Bagnolo San Vito, l’opera progettata da Toto Costruzioni e Fagioli spa. Il vecchio ponte lesionato dal terremoto del 2012. Il cantiere rallentato dall’innalzamento del fiume




milano.corriere.it


----------



## g.spinoza

The tangenziale of Pontevico-Robecco is going to open next 11 november.

Pontevico and Robecco d'Oglio are two towns separated by river Oglio, one in province Cremona and the other one in province Brescia. The main road, SP45bis, connects Cremona and Brescia by going through the very centre of both towns, with a bridge on a curve that creates a lot of congestion.

Part of the tangenziale at Pontevico was already built: the rest will encircle Robecco and connect to the existing part through a new bridge, built far from the towns.

At a cost of 17.4 M€, the tangenziale is 3.7 km long and features 1 lane per direction.









Dieci anni per 3,7 km di tangenziale che unisce Pontevico a Robecco


L’11 novembre l’inaugurazione ufficiale. La realizzazione è costata 17 milioni e mezzo




brescia.corriere.it













OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This means there are only two real built-up areas remaining on SS45bis between Brescia and Cremona (and less reason to use A21?)


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> This means there are only two real built-up areas remaining on SS45bis between Brescia and Cremona (and less reason to use A21?)


Basically one, Bagnolo Mella, which is slowly getting its own bypass.
I drove it seldom on my usual Turin-Brescia bimonthly commute, especially to bypass closures on the A21. Not sure whether it can be really used as an alternate route, but I have to admit it is one of the best free routes parallel to a motorway in Italy - the best being probably the SS12 for A22.


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> Basically one, Bagnolo Mella, which is slowly getting its own bypass.
> I drove it seldom on my usual Turin-Brescia bimonthly commute, especially to bypass closures on the A21. Not sure whether it can be really used as an alternate route, but I have to admit it is one of the best free routes parallel to a motorway in Italy - the best being probably the SS12 for A22.


SS16 is a decent replacement for A14 near Bari.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> SS16 is a decent replacement for A14 near Bari.


Oh, yes.
I was thinking 2-laned roads only.


----------



## Slovenia_

I have one question, maybe if someone knows 

Which is the busiest toll station on italian highways? And what is the AADT?

Tnx


----------



## g.spinoza

Slovenia_ said:


> I have one question, maybe if someone knows
> 
> Which is the busiest toll station on italian highways? And what is the AADT?
> 
> Tnx


No idea.
Before the pandemic, A4 Brescia-Padua was said to be the busiest stretch of all the Italian motorways, at 278 k vehicles per day. 
As for toll stations, it would be probably Milan East or Milan West, but I have no figures.


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> Before the pandemic, A4 Brescia-Padua was said to be the busiest stretch of all the Italian motorways, at 278 k vehicles per day.


That would be excessively high number for just 6 traffic lanes. It would probably be clogged most of the day. But I never witnessed traffic jams on that part except when they traffic accidents happened.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some form of 'via' is quite popular nowadays, I think it's a Latin reference. Several concessions in Germany are called 'via' (Via Südwest, Via Solutions Thüringen, A9 Via Gateway Thüringen, ViA6west, Via Niedersachsen, etc.)


Via is Latin (and Italian) for "way". It is used for streets ("Via Morandi", "Via 4 dicembre") but never for roads.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

And the infamous 'viatologists'. 😅


----------



## legolego

th most famous called"AUTOVIA" is this contract-holder , that operates in north-Est of italy









they manage thisstretches


----------



## Lombardia1970

Come procede il cantiere dell'autostrada della Valtrompia


Restano le criticità ambientali e il rebus costi, ma l’impresa assicura: i cantieri non si fermano. «Opera pronta in 4 anni»




www.giornaledibrescia.it




Work in progress to new higway in Lombardy in the North of Brescia


----------



## Suburbanist

I wonder what became of the Orte- Mestre highway project... another one that is on a deep drawer. It was supposed to be partially financed with the joint recovery funds from the pandemic budget initiative of the EU.


----------



## italystf

legolego said:


> th most famous called"AUTOVIA" is this contract-holder , that operates in north-Est of italy
> 
> View attachment 2360610
> 
> they manage thisstretches
> 
> View attachment 2360614


Autovie Venete dates as back as 1928, when the company was founded to develope 1+1 "autostrade" in the North-East.


----------



## italystf

Lombardia1970 said:


> Come procede il cantiere dell'autostrada della Valtrompia
> 
> 
> Restano le criticità ambientali e il rebus costi, ma l’impresa assicura: i cantieri non si fermano. «Opera pronta in 4 anni»
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.giornaledibrescia.it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Work in progress to new higway in Lombardy in the North of Brescia
> View attachment 2360984


Nice early-2000s vintage map 😀


----------



## italystf

New national road numbers in Lombardy Region (former provincial roads):

SS 753 "di Esino": Perledo - Cortenova, 28,8 km
SS 754 "Parlasco - Bellano", 8 km
SS 755 "Gerolese": Voghera - Sannazzaro de' Burgondi, 13,7 km
SS 756 "Sannazzaro - Torre Berretti", 22,2 km


----------



## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> New national road numbers in Lombardy Region (former provincial roads):
> 
> SS 753 "di Esino": Perledo - Cortenova, 28,8 km
> SS 754 "Parlasco - Bellano", 8 km
> SS 755 "Gerolese": Voghera - Sannazzaro de' Burgondi, 13,7 km
> SS 756 "Sannazzaro - Torre Berretti", 22,2 km


They should maybe have some ex-ex-SS-(number)


----------



## Luki_SL

^^are there any lower free numbers?


----------



## bortttt

Luki_SL said:


> ^^are there any lower free numbers?


Yes, are available, but are reserved for an eventual return of streets to their original numbering, particularly historic streets 1 through 139






Strade statali in Italia (1-99) - Wikipedia







it.wikipedia.org









Strade statali in Italia (100-199) - Wikipedia







it.wikipedia.org


----------



## italystf

Road numbers located in territories annexed by Yugoslavia in 1947 could be reused anyway.


----------



## g.spinoza

Tomorrow the first lot of "pedemontana delle Marche", part of Quadrilatero project in central Italy, will open to traffic. The 1+1 road will eventually connect SS76 at Fabriano with SS77 at Sfercia; the stretch that will open tomorrow is Fabriano-Matelica, 8 km.
The road will likely be called SS256/var.









FABRIANO / Pedemontana, mercoledì apertura del tratto fino a Matelica


Conto alla rovescia: il primo tratto della Pedemontana delle Marche inaugurato tra pochi giorni FABRIANO, 14 novembre 2021 – Conto alla rovescia: mercoledì 17 novembre verrà inaugurato il primo tratto della Pedemontana delle Marche, da Fabriano a Matelica. La società Quadrilatero ha comunicato...




www.qdmnotizie.it


----------



## Coccodrillo

g.spinoza said:


> Via is Latin (and Italian) for "way". It is used for streets ("Via Morandi", "Via 4 dicembre") but never for roads.


Some existing roads are still nicknamed "Via Xyz" from their name like SS1 Via Aurelia, SS9 Via Appia, and others.

A similar word (autoguidovia or guidovia) was used to identify a strange railway which used hybrid steel-rubber wheels near Genova. "Autoguidovie" is a company derived from the manager of that railway that manages local bus routes mostly around Milan (but not in the city itself).









Autoguidovia della Madonna della Guardia - Wikipedia







it.wikipedia.org


----------



## CNGL

SS9 is Via Emilia, Via Appia is SS7.

And I see they are still counting _Strade Statali_. There are many others that were classified, but as they were former state roads they got some sense and restored their old numbers. However, the San Marco pass between Bembrana and Tellina valleys wasn't a state road before 2001 and has recently become one. Knowing Italy one would expect they would have assigned a new number, but surprisingly they chose to extend the newly reinstated SS470 designation (which in its previous life ended at Lenna) across the pass to Morbegno.


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> Some existing roads are still nicknamed "Via Xyz" from their name like SS1 Via Aurelia, SS9 Via Appia, and others.


True, but they come directly straight from Latin after the Roman imperial roads.


----------



## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> Tomorrow the first lot of "pedemontana delle Marche", part of Quadrilatero project in central Italy, will open to traffic. The 1+1 road will eventually connect SS76 at Fabriano with SS77 at Sfercia; the stretch that will open tomorrow is Fabriano-Matelica, 8 km.
> The road will likely be called SS256/var.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FABRIANO / Pedemontana, mercoledì apertura del tratto fino a Matelica
> 
> 
> Conto alla rovescia: il primo tratto della Pedemontana delle Marche inaugurato tra pochi giorni FABRIANO, 14 novembre 2021 – Conto alla rovescia: mercoledì 17 novembre verrà inaugurato il primo tratto della Pedemontana delle Marche, da Fabriano a Matelica. La società Quadrilatero ha comunicato...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.qdmnotizie.it


Apparently the opening of this road has been postponed a few days: officially due to bad weather, actually because the access roundabout from SS76 was not asphalted yet.

"Very probably" the road will open next 22 November.









Maltempo e Covid: slitta l'apertura del primo lotto della Pedemontana Fabriano-Matelica - CentroPagina


Slitta molto probabilmente al 22 novembre, l’apertura al traffico del primo tratto della Pedemontana delle Marche, da Fabriano a Matelica




www.centropagina.it





(the caption on the picture in the article is wrong: that is not Pedemontana, rather a section of SS76 around Valtreara)


----------



## SeñorGol

legolego said:


> th most famous called"AUTOVIA" is this contract-holder , that operates in north-Est of italy
> 
> View attachment 2360610
> 
> they manage thisstretches
> 
> View attachment 2360614


Interesting coincidence: The Italian A4 crosses the Tagliamento river, while the Spanish A-4 crosses the Tajo river... both _Tagliamento_ and _Tajo_ meaning "cut" (if I'm not mistaken about the Italian word) 🤓


----------



## g.spinoza

SeñorGol said:


> Interesting coincidence: The Italian A4 crosses the Tagliamento river, while the Spanish A-4 crosses the Tajo river... both _Tagliamento_ and _Tajo_ meaning "cut" (if I'm not mistaken about the Italian word) 🤓


It's not a current Italian word (the correct one would be "taglio") but its meaning is clearly understandable.


----------



## italystf

SeñorGol said:


> Interesting coincidence: The Italian A4 crosses the Tagliamento river, while the Spanish A-4 crosses the Tajo river... both _Tagliamento_ and _Tajo_ meaning "cut" (if I'm not mistaken about the Italian word) 🤓


Yup, but Tagliamento comes from "tiglio" (tilia tree), not from "taglio" (cut).
In Italy the toponym "Taglio" is often related to artificial canals (that "cut" the land). The town of Taglio di Po (cut of Po river) is called in that way because in that place the Po river was artificially realigned during Venetian era.


----------



## Lombardia1970

Via libera dell'Anas per la Sassari-Alghero, costerà 167 milioni di euro new motorway approved in Sardinia


----------



## Lombardia1970

E78 | Grosseto-Fano (Superstrada dei Due Mari) new road Superstrada dei due mari updates


----------



## Lombardia1970

Dopo tredici anni di lavori apre la tangenziale di Borgo Ticino


È stata pensare per spostare il traffico del precedente tracciato. Il cantiere si era rivelato complesso e ancora oggi mancano alcune opere accessorie. "Le seguiremo passo passo"




www.malpensanews.it





New road open in Piemonte after 13 years of works!


----------



## italystf

Passo della Borcola is a narrow and winding mountain pass connecting Veneto and Trentino regions. The road is open in summertime only, as in winter is dangerous due to snow and avalanches.
Yet, these Belgian tourists attempted to cross the pass anyway, ignoring all prohibition signs. They did not even have snow chains with them.
Obviously they got stucked in the snow and rescue operations took around three hours.
Talking about human stupidity...

















Passo della Borcola infernale per cinque persone. Auto bloccata da neve e ghiaccio - L'Eco Vicentino


Neve e ghiaccio hanno reso difficile la serata di cinque persone, un uomo, due donne e due bambini a bordo di un auto, senza catene e in un tratto dove




www.ecovicentino.it


----------



## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> Apparently there are some problems with the stability stress tests of the bridge of the future A52 over SS35.
> It appears that the transversal deflection (pardon me if the English terms are not correct) was higher than anticipated. Still too early to say why.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OpenStreetMap
> 
> 
> OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.openstreetmap.org


Some updates on this:









Rho-Monza, ancora rinvii: "Altri lavori sul viadotto" - Cronaca - ilgiorno.it


Slitta di almeno tre mesi il completamento del primo lotto del cantiere L’imprevisto emerso durante il collaudo del cavalcavia sulla Milano-Meda




www.ilgiorno.it





Three more months of construction on the bridge, in order to build further steel structures to reinforce it. A problem might be the current difficulties in the steel supplying.


----------



## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

next stretch "Ispica-Modica" update works





























source: SIRACUSA-GELA, IMMAGINI ESCLUSIVE: VIADOTTO SALVIA E GALLERIA MANDRAVECCHIA



Other pics from assessor's Falcone Facebook profile.




























VIDEO


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Funny bridge in Potenza.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478532566554746880


----------



## italystf

The tunnel under Muggia castle (near Trieste) has been closed to traffic indefinitely after part of the roof collapsed. No causalities were reported.
That one-way tunnel used to carry eastbound traffic of SR TS 14, while westbound traffic was routed through the promenade. Trucks could use the tunnel in both direction (to avoid them driving along the promenade), as there was a traffic light that became red when a heavy vehicle approched in the other direction.
















Caduta calcinacci, chiusa la Galleria di Muggia (FOTO)


#AvvisoMuggia la galleria di #Muggia è stata chiusa alla circolazione a causa della caduta di calcinacci. Invitiamo i cittadini a scegliere strade alternative, al momento non si sa quando la viabilità sarà ripristinata.




www.triestecafe.it




I drove there the day before, talking about luck...


----------



## keber

When I zoom the picture, I see tree roots between those bricks. Bricks will have to be removed and new lining built from reinforced concrete. I don't see a major stability problem. 
I drove there about 2 months ago.


----------



## g.spinoza

It is often said that Furlo tunnel is the oldest tunnel in the world. Technically it's wrong: it's the oldest tunnel in the world still in service.
It was built by ancient Romans during the reign of emperor Vespasian, in 76 AD.

To find the oldest tunnel in the world tout court, you just have to move few meters: beside the Roman dig, there is a somewhat older umbro-etruscan one. The tunnel has always been closed to visitors, but there is a project to restore it and make it visitable again.

In this picture you can see the Western entrance of the Roman tunnel, with the arch, and the etruscan dig closer to the cliff


















Furlo, la Galleria “Piccola” di epoca romana tornerà fruibile - Oltrefano.it


Furlo, la Galleria “Piccola” di epoca romana tornerà fruibile, La Galleria “Piccola” di epoca romana presente lungo la via Flaminia, chiusa da tempo e vicina a quella più grande fatta realizzare dall’imperatore




www.oltrefano.it





PS: I'm sure there are other tunnels in the world, even older than this, like the tunnel described by Herodotus in Samos.


----------



## g.spinoza

Autostrada Pedemontana Lombarda, the concessionaire of A36 north of Milan, first - and only so far - motorway in Italy to feature free-flow tolling system, was forced by AGCM (Market and Competition Authority) to modify their signs.
Many motorists, between 2018 and 2021, denounced the confuse and unclear panels where payment modes are described.
APL agreed to modify their signs accordingly, to make them clearer. Below are before and after:


















Evasori inconsapevoli sull’autostrada Pedemontana, la società di gestione si impegna a mettere cartelli più chiari


La vicenda è arrivata all'Antitrust: è nata su segnalazione di diversi automobilisti che, in assenza di caselli, non si erano accorti di aver…




www.repubblica.it


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ As if like that are more clearer...


----------



## Lombardia1970

Cuneo-Asti, la società promette: "Il tratto tra Cantina di Roddi e Verduno sarà ultimato entro dicembre". Ecco il cantiere ripreso dal drone


«La notizia è che le opere vanno avanti, sono sotto gli occhi di tutti. Ma la nostra volontà è quella di accelerare il più po…




go.skimresources.com




Motorway A33 Asti-Cuneo updates January 2022


----------



## g.spinoza

Lombardia1970 said:


> Cuneo-Asti, la società promette: "Il tratto tra Cantina di Roddi e Verduno sarà ultimato entro dicembre". Ecco il cantiere ripreso dal drone
> 
> 
> «La notizia è che le opere vanno avanti, sono sotto gli occhi di tutti. Ma la nostra volontà è quella di accelerare il più po…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> go.skimresources.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Motorway A33 Asti-Cuneo updates January 2022


Just to elaborate a bit on this laconic and rather incomprehensible update.

Lot 2.6B of motorway A33, between Cantina di Roddi and Verduno, is in construction now. The expected completion date is December 2022. I can't find its exact length but it should be around 4 km.









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org





The link posted in the quote has an interesting drone video about the current works.


----------



## brick84

I hope you can translate or alternatively use subtitles on youtube:



*A2 - Autostrada del Mediterreaneo*


----------



## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

_update works lots Ispica-Modica














_







Bersagliere said:


> Aggiornamento lavori ad oggi 23 gennaio 2022.
> 
> Zona Salvia: sullo scatolare hanno completato la copertura impermeabile e rimosso gli ultimi ponteggi di sostegno; altri progressi significativi di lavori non si notano.
> View attachment 2673611
> 
> View attachment 2673610
> 
> View attachment 2673609
> 
> 
> Zona galleria Mandravecchia, lato Modica: stanno procedendo con l'asfaltatura;
> View attachment 2673622
> 
> 
> View attachment 2673620
> 
> View attachment 2673619
> 
> View attachment 2673618
> 
> 
> Zona Mandravecchia lato Siracusa è già asfaltata e con guardrail installato (la vista da tale zona è eccezionale, si vede il porto di Pozzallo e la baia della Marza)
> View attachment 2673660
> 
> View attachment 2673657
> 
> View attachment 2673659
> 
> View attachment 2673658
> 
> View attachment 2673656
> 
> 
> 
> Diaframma strada comunale vicino la chiesa di Santa Rita e ristorante il Maniero: è stato completamente rimosso.
> 
> View attachment 2673635
> 
> View attachment 2673636
> 
> View attachment 2673634
> 
> View attachment 2673633
> 
> 
> Diaframma strada comunale vicino stabilimento dell'acqua minerale Santa Maria: si procede con la rimozione e sono all'incirca a metà dell'opera.
> 
> View attachment 2673642
> 
> View attachment 2673643
> 
> View attachment 2673641
> 
> 
> Qualche considerazione: in precedenti post ho lamentato la lentezza dei lavori, che in effetti c'è, però, per converso, debbo constatare che i lavori sono eseguiti veramente a regola d'arte e sono di una imponenza tale che ti lascia entusiasta.
> 
> Sicuramente quando saranno terminati, non ci sarà bisogno di fare la manutenzione straordinaria per molti anni, come invece accaduto per il tratto Cassibile-Rosolini...


----------



## Lombardia1970

New road in Emilia Romagna region 








Rubiera, tangenziale Sud approvata l’intesa Stato-Regione







gazzettadireggio.gelocal.it


----------



## brick84

*A10 Genova-Ventimiglia *


----------



## Lombardia1970

Gardesana, una luce nel tunnel stappa traffico L’opera riprende velocità


L’andamento è lento e del resto parlando della strada Gardesana simbolo di code e percorribilità lumaca non potrebbe essere altrimenti,... Scopri di più




www.bresciaoggi.it





New road on the Garda Lake


----------



## g.spinoza

Works for the enlargement of SS4 "Salaria" at Passo Corese, near Rome, unearthed a sizable stretch of ancient Roman Via Salaria:










Works stopped now in order to protect the findings; it seems, however, that this discovery won't affect the works, which will go on on the other side of the road.









SCAVANO PER LA TERZA CORSIA E SALTA FUORI L' ANTICA VIA SALARIA - Sabinia TV - Il Quotidiano della Sabina e di Rieti


Sensazionale scoperta archeologica tra Nerola e Scandriglia. La ditta che sta realizzando la terza corsia “tagliacurve” sulla Ss4 tra Passo Corese e Osteria Nuova, nel corso degli scavi ha rinvenuto una porzione quasi intatta dell’antica via Salaria. Le grosse pietre, una accanto all’altra...




www.sabiniatv.it


----------



## g.spinoza

Spresiano-Montebelluna stretch of SPV is open as of this morning (8 July). 









Pedemontana, aperto il nuovo tratto Montebelluna-Spresiano


SPRESIANO - Inagurato questa mattina il nuovo tratto lungo 14 chilometri della Superstrada Pedemontana Veneta costato 145 milioni di euro.




www.oggitreviso.it


----------



## Lombardia1970

Pedemontana, inaugurato un nuovo tratto: il video this is video of new opening..


----------



## DrOzda

g.spinoza said:


> I don't think there's any issue currently there.



Yes, Tiberina is now quite at least till Sansepolcro , worst parts had been resurfaced and is in better condition than 3 years ago.


----------



## Stuu

Quick question re Italy: I'm driving from Milan Malpensa to La Spezia on Saturday 30 July, leaving around 1300. How bad is the traffic likely to be?


----------



## Eddard Stark

Stuu said:


> Quick question re Italy: I'm driving from Milan Malpensa to La Spezia on Saturday 30 July, leaving around 1300. How bad is the traffic likely to be?


Usually it is not bad on sat afternoon


----------



## keber

In my experience (I drove at least 3 times on ferragosto start-weekend), traffic is ok, if there are no accidents on your way.


----------



## g.spinoza

Stuu said:


> Quick question re Italy: I'm driving from Milan Malpensa to La Spezia on Saturday 30 July, leaving around 1300. How bad is the traffic likely to be?


Saturday 30 is a "red flag" day, both in the morning and in the afternoon, as forecasted by the Italian Police, meaning "intense traffic with possible critical issues".


----------



## Eddard Stark

In my experience, Milan-Liguria on sat afternoon is rarely an issue


----------



## Verso

Wildfires have closed the motorway and railway Trieste–Venice where Italy is at its narrowest between Slovenia and the Adriatic Sea, effectively semi-isolating Trieste from the rest of the country. It's burning on both sides of the border.


----------



## Ni3lS

g.spinoza said:


> Saturday 30 is a "red flag" day, both in the morning and in the afternoon, as forecasted by the Italian Police, meaning "intense traffic with possible critical issues".


I'm driving from Liguria to France on the 30th. Not A10 / A8 but via Turin and Mt. Blanc, hope it won't get too crazy


----------



## Stuu

g.spinoza said:


> Saturday 30 is a "red flag" day, both in the morning and in the afternoon, as forecasted by the Italian Police, meaning "intense traffic with possible critical issues".


Thanks, do they do those by region? I have had a look but my Italian is pitiful


----------



## g.spinoza

Stuu said:


> Thanks, do they do those by region? I have had a look but my Italian is pitiful


No, unfortunately it is a nationwide warning.
However, it is not far-fetched to assume that traffic will be greater from large cities to tourist resorts (mountains and sea), so Milan-Ligura falls in this category.


----------



## brick84

*SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta*

demolition of old viaduct "San Giuliano"


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting, a sequential blast. That's different as to how the Germans and Americans seem to do it (all explosives detonate at once).


----------



## g.spinoza

brick84 said:


> *SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta*
> 
> demolition of old viaduct "San Giuliano"


Was it closed since long? I spotted some shrubs on the carriageway...


----------



## brick84

g.spinoza said:


> Was it closed since long? I spotted some shrubs on the carriageway...


Yep. It was the older, now closed since the opening of the new section.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The new segment is still in temporary phase, it opened on 26 March 2021. 

The actual Caltanissetta bypass, including the 4 kilometer long Galleria Caltanissetta is still not completed (apparently works started in 2014).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I finally made it to the Stelvio Pass. This pass (2757 meters) is the highest pass in Italy and the second-highest in the Alps. 

I've read that this pass is often clogged with cyclists and motorcyclists, but there was virtually no traffic on this sunny morning! How often is that possible?


Passo Stelvio - Stilfserjoch 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Passo Stelvio - Stilfserjoch 10 by European Roads, on Flickr


Passo Stelvio - Stilfserjoch 13 by European Roads, on Flickr


Passo Stelvio - Stilfserjoch 15 by European Roads, on Flickr

The mountains had very little snow for mid-June. I was in this area in June 2019 and then the pass was still closed due to snow. It has been a dry winter on the south side of the Alps.

Passo Stelvio - Stilfserjoch 20 by European Roads, on Flickr


Passo Stelvio - Stilfserjoch 24 by European Roads, on Flickr

The Ortler (3,905 meters). It is the highest mountain of South Tyrol, as well as the easternmost 3,900+ mountain in the Alps.

Passo Stelvio - Stilfserjoch 25 by European Roads, on Flickr

I took a little hike to the Dreisprachenspitze (2,843 meters). It is translated as the 'three languages peak' (German, Italian & Romansh). It is on the border with Switzerland.

Passo Stelvio - Stilfserjoch 28 by European Roads, on Flickr

There was a view of Piz Bernina (4,049), which is the only four-thousander of the Eastern Alps.

Passo Stelvio - Stilfserjoch 29a by European Roads, on Flickr

Overview of the eastern approach of the pass. Piz Bernina can be seen on the left, the turnoff to the Umbrail Pass on the right.

Passo Stelvio - Stilfserjoch 30 by European Roads, on Flickr

Border marker.

Passo Stelvio - Stilfserjoch 36 by European Roads, on Flickr

A view over the pass, with the Ortler Mountains behind it.

Passo Stelvio - Stilfserjoch 37 by European Roads, on Flickr

And of course the sign is full of stickers.

Passo Stelvio - Stilfserjoch 42 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Ortler (3,905 meters). It is the highest mountain of South Tyrol, as well as the easternmost 3,900+ mountain in the Alps.


And was highest in Austria-Hungary.


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> And was highest in Austria-Hungary.


It was nothing special in the Roman empire.


----------



## italystf

A4, SS14 and the railway near Monfalcone are again shut down because of wildfires in Carso.
It means that currently Trieste can be reached overland only from Slovenia.
Traffic on the Venice-Ljubljiana route must go via Gorizia.








Incendio in Carso zona Duino, chiude anche la Statale


Il fuoco dell’incendio divampato all’ora di pranzo, oggi, sabato 6 agosto 2022, non è ancora stato spento, anzi il vento sta prendendo forza. Ora è ben visibile fin dietro la Conad di Duino, per questo motivo in questi minuti è stata [...]




www.triestecafe.it





In the past few weeks 37 sq km of forest between Italy and Slovenia have been completely destroyed by fire. That's a disaster of and unprecedented size for that region.


----------



## Stuu

I'm on holiday in Italy and have been doing a fair bit of motorway driving. I was aware of the Tutor system and have driven on roads where the signs say it is in operation. Are there ways round it though? I ask as there were plenty of Italian registered cars going much faster than the speed limit


----------



## g.spinoza

Stuu said:


> I'm on holiday in Italy and have been doing a fair bit of motorway driving. I was aware of the Tutor system and have driven on roads where the signs say it is in operation. Are there ways round it though? I ask as there were plenty of Italian registered cars going much faster than the speed limit


Tutor are almost always turned off.
Besides, it only takes the average speed between portals: you can drive 150 safely as long as you drive 100 for a bit, in order to average at 130.


----------



## g.spinoza

Interesting video render of the "Raccordo Cisterna-Valmontone" (I hate that in Italy they never use numbers until after opening - and sometimes not even then), the road that should connect A1 south of Rome to SS148 Pontina (future motorway Rome-Latina).
It seems that it will be a 1+1 superhighway instead of a motorway proper:


----------



## g.spinoza

Not strictly in topic, as it is a reportage on the construction of the train HS line Brescia-Verona, but there are nice views of A4 - as the HS line will run parallel to it:


----------



## italystf

3rd lane A4 San Donà di Piave - Portogruaro

Tender procedure for the reconstruction of 10 overpasses over the 25-km stretch of motorway has started.
Overpasses need to be rebuilt to accomodate the expansion to 3x2.








A4: primo vero passo per la terza corsia tra Portogruaro e San Donà


Bando da 48 milioni di euro per la costruzione di 10 cavalcavia lungo i 25km coinvolti. Potrebbero essere pronte tra poco meno di tre anni




www.telefriuli.it




The section San Donà di Piave-Portogruaro is the only remaining 2x2 part of A4 between Turin and the junction with A23 at Palmanova. This is one of the most congested and accident-prone motorway stretches in Italy.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> 3rd lane A4 San Donà di Piave - Portogruaro
> 
> Tender procedure for the reconstruction of 10 overpasses over the 25-km stretch of motorway has started.
> Overpasses need to be rebuilt to accomodate the expansion to 3x2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A4: primo vero passo per la terza corsia tra Portogruaro e San Donà
> 
> 
> Bando da 48 milioni di euro per la costruzione di 10 cavalcavia lungo i 25km coinvolti. Potrebbero essere pronte tra poco meno di tre anni
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.telefriuli.it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The section San Donà di Piave-Portogruaro is the only remaining 2x2 part of A4 between Turin and the junction with A23 at Palmanova. This is one of the most congested and accident-prone motorway stretches in Italy.


Is it the only motorway stretch being widened in Italy at the moment?


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> Is it the only motorway stretch being widened in Italy at the moment?


There is at least another stretch, South of Firenze on A1 (Firenze Sud-Incisa Valdarno).

On A4 around Milano they are building a dynamic 4th lane.


----------



## Eddard Stark

A very short list


----------



## Verso

Does anyone else have a feeling that the A4 widening is taking ages?


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Does anyone else have a feeling that the A4 widening is taking ages?


No, because everything in Italy takes ages, so you won't notice the difference...


----------



## x-type

I have a feeling that widenning the Adriatica was going much faster.


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> I have a feeling that widenning the Adriatica was going much faster.


Well, it may seem so. Main works went on fast, but when the completion announcement was made, many stretches were still in construction site mode and remained that way for many many years.


----------



## g.spinoza

Every now and then Autostrade and the other concessionaires promote campaigns for correct driving. Knowing the Italian (lack of) lane discipline, today's campaign was for "occupare la corsia libera più a destra", i.e. stay in the rightmost lane when free of other vehicles. Given that this is tourist season, they translated the sign in English as well. With this result:










I'm sure a lot of motorists would have their way in claiming that their lane is right, and the others are wrong...


----------



## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> Every now and then Autostrade and the other concessionaires promote campaigns for correct driving. Knowing the Italian (lack of) lane discipline, today's campaign was for "occupare la corsia libera più a destra", i.e. stay in the rightmost lane when free of other vehicles. Given that this is tourist season, they translated the sign in English as well. With this result:
> 
> View attachment 3695597
> 
> 
> I'm sure a lot of motorists would have their way in claiming that their lane is right, and the others are wrong...


I, too, am not a native english speaker, but for me "stay in the right lane" means like "it's forbidden to use the left lane", so it's forbidden to overtake slow vehicles.


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> Every now and then Autostrade and the other concessionaires promote campaigns for correct driving. Knowing the Italian (lack of) lane discipline, today's campaign was for "occupare la corsia libera più a destra", i.e. stay in the rightmost lane when free of other vehicles. Given that this is tourist season, they translated the sign in English as well. With this result:
> 
> View attachment 3695597
> 
> 
> I'm sure a lot of motorists would have their way in claiming that their lane is right, and the others are wrong...


I'm still surprised that quite inapropriate "men at work" is still in use on completely all Italian roads as long as I remember. It is a confusing message for someone that is first time in Italy.
"Roadworks (ahead)" should be the correct translations for "lavori in corso". But that will probably never change ...


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> I'm still surprised that quite inapropriate "men at work" is still in use on completely all Italian roads as long as I remember. It is a confusing message for someone that is first time in Italy.
> "Roadworks (ahead)" should be the correct translations for "lavori in corso". But that will probably never change ...


I think they want to focus more on the presence of actual people, therefore risk of hitting someone, than generic roadworks, for which nobody would slow down.
Problem is, that often "men at work" sign is placed on deserted construction sites...


----------



## keber

Funny that they want to focus on actual people just in English language.
I agree on other problem but that is not only Italian speciality....


----------



## bortttt

g.spinoza said:


> Every now and then Autostrade and the other concessionaires promote campaigns for correct driving. Knowing the Italian (lack of) lane discipline, today's campaign was for "occupare la corsia libera più a destra", i.e. stay in the rightmost lane when free of other vehicles. Given that this is tourist season, they translated the sign in English as well. With this result:
> 
> View attachment 3695597
> 
> 
> I'm sure a lot of motorists would have their way in claiming that their lane is right, and the others are wrong...


A31?


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Funny that they want to focus on actual people just in English language.
> I agree on other problem but that is not only Italian speciality....


I don't remember the Italian equivalent on road signs. "Persone in strada"? 



bortttt said:


> A31?


Yep, but I saw the sign repeated several times all along the A4 from Brescia to Vicenza.


----------



## Ni3lS

It's a bit ironic to put the emphasis on the fact that men are at work like anyone in Italy would care. Not meaning to over-generalize anything, but from my experiences on the Autostrada over the past 15 years it's simply unsafe to drive the often posted speed limit of 60 km/h. The majority will drive 100-110 km/h and if you do decide to drive 60 in the right lane, trucks will start flashing their lights at you.


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> I don't remember the Italian equivalent on road signs. "Persone in strada"?


It always says "Lavori in corso" (I've never seen something different) which means "works in progress" or better in English "Roadworks (ahead/in progress)"


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> It always says "Lavori in corso" (I've never seen something different) which means "works in progress" or better in English "Roadworks (ahead/in progress)"


Right. Then my pseudo-explanation about Italian psychology on the road doesn't hold.


----------



## g.spinoza

Ni3lS said:


> It's a bit ironic to put the emphasis on the fact that men are at work like anyone in Italy would care. Not meaning to over-generalize anything, but from my experiences on the Autostrada over the past 15 years it's simply unsafe to drive the often posted speed limit of 60 km/h. The majority will drive 100-110 km/h and if you do decide to drive 60 in the right lane, trucks will start flashing their lights at you.


That's true. I don't remember seeing speeds so low in construction zones in Germany, for instance.


----------



## bortttt

g.spinoza said:


> Yep, but I saw the sign repeated several times all along the A4 from Brescia to Vicenza.


more than anything, the a31 is two lanes and I have hardly ever seen cars in the fast lane



g.spinoza said:


> I don't remember the Italian equivalent on road signs. "Persone in strada"?


I have never seen it in Italian, although I find it very efficient to read it in English, for example on the SPV construction sites in A27 compared to many others also written in Italian


----------



## Coccodrillo

g.spinoza said:


> Every now and then Autostrade and the other concessionaires promote campaigns for correct driving. Knowing the Italian (lack of) lane discipline, today's campaign was for "occupare la corsia libera più a destra", i.e. stay in the rightmost lane when free of other vehicles. Given that this is tourist season, they translated the sign in English as well. With this result:
> 
> View attachment 3695597
> 
> 
> I'm sure a lot of motorists would have their way in claiming that their lane is right, and the others are wrong...


Sometimes on these signs they write "don't get distracted when driving".


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> That's true. I don't remember seeing speeds so low in construction zones in Germany, for instance.


60 was very common for motorway construction sites in Baden-Württemberg (since 2011 when Greens took over). It changed when the motorway administration changed to the federal authority _Die Autobahn_ back in January 2021. I've also seen 40 on German motorways.


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> I don't remember the Italian equivalent on road signs. "Persone in strada"?


There is. They write simply "Operai al lavoro" as far as I remember.


----------



## brick84

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=449388337061439


----------



## Wilhem275

keber said:


> I'm still surprised that quite inapropriate "men at work" is still in use on completely all Italian roads as long as I remember. It is a confusing message for someone that is first time in Italy.


I kid you not: every single time I see it, this starts playing in my head...


----------



## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> Well, it may seem so. Main works went on fast, but when the completion announcement was made, many stretches were still in construction site mode and remained that way for many many years.


Just as a follow up, I drove a few days ago on the A14 and the Senigallia-Ancona stretch still has the 80 km/h signs, just like it was during construction of third lane. A good 10 years ago, I think.


----------



## g.spinoza

West Tangenziale of Brescia, an urban expressway (80 km/h) that bypasses my town the west, is closed since this morning due to a crane truck that hit an overpass. After the inspection, they say 5 beams have been damaged beyond repair:



















I didn't know about that, but this evening I had to go to the North of Brescia (I live in the South) and it was odd that the satnav didn't route me through this road. Lucky that I did follow its suggestions.


----------



## Wilhem275

Apparently that overpass was just restored: Street View from June '21 shows it in much worse shape. Well, not worse than _now_...


----------



## geogregor

Attus said:


> I, too, am not a native english speaker, but for me "stay in the right lane" means like "it's forbidden to use the left lane", so it's forbidden to overtake slow vehicles.


Not really. "Stay in the right lane" is rather clunky phrase. If the idea was to suggest staying in the rightmost lane and use left only for overtaking it should simply say "keep right" or "keep right unless overtaking".

Neither phrase indicate that use of the left line is forbidden. For that you should display something like "you must stay in right lane" or " left lane closed, merge right"


----------



## Verso

^^ That's up for interpretation. "Stay in the right lane" and "keep right" both literally mean "don't move anywhere else but right" (obviously not meaning the emergency lane). Of course writing "left lane closed" or so would be much more appropriate. So, to get back to the initial meaning, writing "keep right unless overtaking" would be much better.


----------



## g.spinoza

Wilhem275 said:


> Apparently that overpass was just restored: Street View from June '21 shows it in much worse shape. Well, not worse than _now_...


I don't remember any major works on that bridge recently. A bike path was added to it in 2017 or 18, but that didn't involve any structural work. I guess it was only painted white since 2021.


----------



## Wilhem275

I hope they also covered those exposed rebars, not just painted over


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The incredible skybridges of A27 on the edge of the Alps.

I took these photos in June when I was in Belluno. This segment of A27 opened in 1994-1995.


A27 Fadalto 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


A27 Fadalto 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


A27 Fadalto 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


A27 Fadalto 12 by European Roads, on Flickr


A27 Fadalto 15 by European Roads, on Flickr


A27 Fadalto 17 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## g.spinoza

Where "incredible"means "landscape-ruining"...


----------



## g.spinoza

g.spinoza said:


> West Tangenziale of Brescia, an urban expressway (80 km/h) that bypasses my town the west, is closed since this morning due to a crane truck that hit an overpass. After the inspection, they say 5 beams have been damaged beyond repair:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know about that, but this evening I had to go to the North of Brescia (I live in the South) and it was odd that the satnav didn't route me through this road. Lucky that I did follow its suggestions.


West tangenziale will reopen in a few days, however the bridge will have to be partially torn down and reconstructed, at an estimated cost of 2 M€, with a reopening date of summer 2023. 
For the time being, the bridge will be just shored up and not demolished because a lot of subservices run through it (electricity, water, heating gas) and they must be rerouted.

The damaged bridge was one of the main accesses to an Iveco truck factory: the trucks must follow a different route which is not ideal and long queues are forming.









Ponte di via Volturno, costerà 2 milioni e sarà pronto per l'estate 2023


Saranno demolite le cinque travi danneggiate. Farlo subito? Lì sotto passano i sottoservizi




www.giornaledibrescia.it













Le voci di residenti e commercianti: «Traffico da incubo, il ponte fuori uso ci cambia la vita»


Il danno al ponte di via Volturno recide la zona Ovest dal resto della città. Una situazione che si riflette in modo plastico nelle... Scopri di più




www.bresciaoggi.it


----------



## mgk920

g.spinoza said:


> I thought "unbelievable" was used to express negative feelings. But I'm not native, so...


'unbelievable!' is often a positive exclamation here in North America, too.

Mike


----------



## devo

italystf said:


> Junction "Giostra" in Messina?


Yeah, that's the one. Quite unbelievable and incredible, seems like something built in the 70s when the 20s and 30s dream of cars everywhere on viaducts was still alive.
I did a quick Google search on this and ... it seems like this should have and probably has been discussed on this thread multiple times so let's just leave it here with a view of the junction.








viadotti-giostra-05.jpg


----------



## italystf

An overpass has partly collapsed in Novara today. A driver survived with only minor injures.


















https://www.agi.it/cronaca/news/2022-10-09/crolla-parte-cavalcavia-e-si-apre-voragine-a-novara-18380159/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So Matteo Salvini is the new minister for transport in Italy.

What would that mean in terms of policy? It seems surprising to me that a party leader and one of the most well known politicians in Italy would 'only' be a transport minister. In most countries this ministry is fairly low key and usually ranked low on lists of ministries. In some countries it's not even called transport anymore. For example in France it is the Ministry of Ecological Transition.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> So Matteo Salvini is the new minister for transport in Italy.
> 
> What would that mean in terms of policy? It seems surprising to me that a party leader and one of the most well known politicians in Italy would 'only' be a transport minister. In most countries this ministry is fairly low key and usually ranked low on lists of ministries. In some countries it's not even called transport anymore. For example in France it is the Ministry of Ecological Transition.


The complete name is now "Minister of infrastructure and sustainable mobility" but I doubt there'll be anything sustainable in their policy.

Salvini was kind of punished by Meloni because his party behaved worse than expected at the election: he wanted the Internal Affairs, just like he held during the first Conte government.

Salvini knows he has little leverage over Meloni so I think he will mostly do what he's told.


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> It seems surprising to me that a party leader and one of the most well known politicians in Italy would 'only' be a transport minister.


Salvini may be well known, but his party, Lega, got only 9% of the votes in the election, significantly less than last time and significantly less than expected.


----------



## FiveYears

..and that party with only 9% got the ministry of economy, also unimportant?


----------



## tunnel owl

That´s a common thing to do in democracy just as they let Christian Lindners wish to become true as a minister of finance. The most important government-job near the chancellor in Germany was given to the third-winning party in order to give respect to them. There is nothing really wrong to do so.


----------



## g.spinoza

FiveYears said:


> ..and that party with only 9% got the ministry of economy, also unimportant?


9% is still better than nothing, so they deserve at least one major ministry. My personal feeling is what I wrote, a sort of punishment for Salvini, but I'm no expert.
I thought Meloni didn't give the Internal Affairs to Salvini in order to keep it for one of her own, instead she appointed an unknown and unaffiliated technician, former prefect (state representative) of Rome. Who knows.

It must be said that Salvini, as minister for internal affairs during Conte government, caused a lot of troubles for his strict anti immigrant policy. Afterwards, he even stood trial for this, although he was later acquitted. I think Meloni wants no bad publicity from him.

Moreover, Salvini is known for his close contacts with Putin and his anti-sanctions policy towards Russia. As minister for internal affairs he wouldn't have any saying in this, but he would have a lot more visibility and could still do damage to the Atlantic policy of Meloni.


----------



## FiveYears

I just wanted to say that maybe Salvini is punished, but Lega surely not


----------



## DrivingAroundSlovenia

Hi there all.
I think that Italian road infrastructure is pretty good. At least in Northern part, where I drive quite often. I was on autostrada from Gorica to Peschiera del Garda few days ago and I am glad that soon most of autostrada on this part will all be 6 lane motorway. 
Local road are usually in good condition to.
Here is one of my video in from Tarcento to Uccea early in spring last year. Beautiful drive.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> So Matteo Salvini is the new minister for transport in Italy.
> 
> What would that mean in terms of policy? It seems surprising to me that a party leader and one of the most well known politicians in Italy would 'only' be a transport minister. In most countries this ministry is fairly low key and usually ranked low on lists of ministries. In some countries it's not even called transport anymore. For example in France it is the Ministry of Ecological Transition.


Only? It's still a too much important role for him. I think I would get banned from this forum if I'll write what I sincerly think of him. 
Seriously, as written before, Giorgia Meloni wanted to give the most important cabinets to his party (Fratelli d'Italia), that got far more votes compared to other two parties of the right-wing cohalition (Berlusconi's Forza Italia and Salvini's Lega).
These three parties have been along for quite a long time (for Italian standard): Lega was founded in the late 1980s (although it was a regionalist Nothern Italy party until the early 2010s), Forza Italia in the early 1990s, and Fratelli d'Italia in 2000s (the latter replaced other similar-oriented parties). However, their share of votes has changed greately throghout the years. Until the early 2010s Forza Italia was the biggest right wing party, until it started to lost votes in favour of Lega, that has turned itself from a regional to a national party. In the last couple of years, Fratelli d'Italia largely surpassed the other two.
Even if the three parties are allied and share many point of views, there are still some rivalries between them.
Giorgia Meloni has always been the classic far-right populist, that opposes EU, immigration, LGBT rights, and never strongly condemned fascism. However, now she tries to appear more 'moderate', 'europeist', and 'atlantist'.
The fact that some right-wing politician of the current cohalition were strongly pro-Russian and eurosceptic until very recently is a source of embarassement for the government. In particular Salvini has committed too many embarassing faux passes to have only little credibility. Now with internet and social media is very easy to discover old embarassing decalrations.


----------



## brick84

*A18 Siracusa-Gela*

from Pozzallo (RG) to Siracusa


----------



## brick84

ChrisZwolle said:


> So Matteo Salvini is the new minister for transport in Italy.
> 
> What would that mean in terms of policy? It seems surprising to me that a party leader and one of the most well known politicians in Italy would 'only' be a transport minister. In most countries this ministry is fairly low key and usually ranked low on lists of ministries. In some countries it's not even called transport anymore. For example in France it is the Ministry of Ecological Transition.


He said that wants to revive Strait of Messina Bridge:










Salvini: "Il ponte sullo Stretto tra i miei obiettivi, punto a far ripartire i cantieri"


Salvini parla poi di “sovranità energetica: penso all’energia nucleare pulita e sicura di ultima generazione. È l’unico modo in prospettiva per rendere le bollette meno care”




www.rainews.it


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There's a long list of projects he could revive that were announced or discussed over the past 15 years but never came to fruition... Roma - Latina, A12 extension, Genova bypass, A31 extension, more Pedemontanae, etc.


----------



## italystf

A couple of years ago when he was the minister of internal affairs he also promised to cancel taxes on fuel, but nothing has happened. 😂


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I was driving down SS12 earlier this month and passed underneath this huge bridge. I turned around to take a couple of photos.

It turns out that this is the largest bridge of A22: 1,028 meters long, 110 meters high and a main span of 163 meters. It opened in 1971.


A22 Colle Isarco 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


A22 Colle Isarco 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


A22 Colle Isarco 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## pccvspw999

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was driving down SS12 earlier this month and passed underneath this huge bridge. I turned around to take a couple of photos.
> 
> It turns out that this is the largest bridge of A22: 1,028 meters long, 110 meters high and a main span of 163 meters. It opened in 1971.
> 
> 
> A22 Colle Isarco 01 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> A22 Colle Isarco 02 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> A22 Colle Isarco 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


It’s very impressive from underneath as it is blunt from above. I drove it many times but I never get aware of it’s dominance, maybe because it is adjacent to the hill, more as a viaduct than a bridge. Same impression I get from the “Biaschina“ viaduct on the A2 in Switzerland, but there is a long 5% approaching that gives a hint about where you are.


----------



## k%

brick84 said:


> He said that wants to revive Strait of Messina Bridge:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Salvini: "Il ponte sullo Stretto tra i miei obiettivi, punto a far ripartire i cantieri"
> 
> 
> Salvini parla poi di “sovranità energetica: penso all’energia nucleare pulita e sicura di ultima generazione. È l’unico modo in prospettiva per rendere le bollette meno care”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rainews.it


Strait of Messina bridge is the most impressive and by far the most awaited infrastructure in Italy and Europe in my opinion

hope they will find the money, maybe this time it should be easier as EU will provide more funds to Italy via National recovery plan


----------



## g.spinoza

k% said:


> Strait of Messina bridge is the most impressive and by far the most awaited infrastructure in Italy and Europe in my opinion
> 
> hope they will find the money, maybe this time it should be easier as EU will provide more funds to Italy via National recovery plan


National recovery plan money must be spent by 2026, so there is no chance in the world


----------



## Zaz965

by the way, are there updated photos about genoa-saint george viaduct?  
















À Gênes, un pont d’espoir pour l’Italie


Moins de deux ans après l’effondrement du pont autoroutier de Gênes, dans le nord de l’Italie, qui a fait 43 morts, la ville inaugure un nouveau viaduc. La réouverture de cet axe vital soulage la ville et fait la démonstration que l’Italie sait mener à bien des gros chantiers. Mais...




www.la-croix.com


----------



## Coccodrillo

In the comments they say it has been like this for years:

UNA STRETTOIA ASSURDA - YouTube

(somewhere near Turin)


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> In the comments they say it has been like this for years:
> 
> UNA STRETTOIA ASSURDA - YouTube
> 
> (somewhere near Turin)


It's here:








Google Maps


Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.




www.google.it





Last time I was there it was February 2021 and I don't remember anything like that.

EDIT: It seems the construction zone was instated in May 2021, so not "years".


https://www.torinotoday.it/politica/torino-19-luglio-viabilita-lungo-stura-lazio.html


----------



## bortttt

g.spinoza said:


> It's here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last time I was there it was February 2021 and I don't remember anything like that.
> 
> EDIT: It seems the construction zone was instated in May 2021, so not "years".
> 
> 
> https://www.torinotoday.it/politica/torino-19-luglio-viabilita-lungo-stura-lazio.html


It's also here 45.083744, 7.729056


----------



## pccvspw999

Anyway, it's a criminal solution, for any purpose it has been done. Roads have to have determined geometries, and if You can't respect them, close the road.


----------



## g.spinoza

The last information about the A15 extension north (Parma-Sissa Trecasali), dated 29 September 2022, was that the opening was slated for 31 October.
The stretch was not opened and no news can be found on the internet. Everything is ready though:





















https://www.parmatoday.it/attualita/tirreno-brennero-casello-sissa-trecasali.html


----------



## italystf

Sign from 1972 showing the number A17. A17 was the number assigned to Naples-Bari motorway only between 1969 and 1973. Then, the section between Naples and Canosa was renumbered A16, while the part between Canosa and Bari became part of A14 (extended to Taranto in 1975).
Before 1973 the number A16 was assigned to Rome-Civitavecchia motorway (opened in 1967), that was later renumbered to A12 as it was planned to be connected to the A12 Genoa-Livorno.


----------



## g.spinoza

The popular tourist town of Maratea, in southern Italy, is unreachable from the South as 400 m^3 of rock and mud slided into SS18, near Castrocucco:














OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## g.spinoza

Connection SPV-A27 will open to traffic next January:









Pedemontana veneta, installata anche la segnaletica: pronta la connessione con l’A27


Promesso da Zaia entro dicembre, forse il taglio del nastro slitterà a gennaio. Mancano solo verifiche e rifiniture all’asfalto




tribunatreviso.gelocal.it




(in Italian and behind paywall)

Here:








OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Webuild consortium signs €1.26 bln contract for sections B2 and C of Pedemontana Lombarda Highway in Italy*
_
The *construction of sections B2 and C of the Pedemontana Lombarda Highway *in northern Italy is a step closer to starting with the signing of the *€1.26-billion contract assigned to Webuild *and its consortium partners in September 2021. It entails the executive design and construction of approximately *30 kilometres of highway *and related routes: Section B2 between *Lentate sul Seveso *and *Cesano Maderno*, and Section C between *Cesano Maderno *and *Milan’s A51 eastern beltway*. Webuild leads the consortium with a 70% stake, with *Pizzarotti* as partner. _






webuild







www.webuildgroup.com


----------



## italystf

A rockslide has just fallen over SS36 dir between Lecco and Ballabio (north of Milan). Two people have been injured.












https://www.today.it/cronaca/frana-statale-lecco-ballabio.html?fbclid=IwAR2VhDhPRWtPdj2288a6nknOl_loGWRUWCl730rdgzEhAgxijYBu8R_ewJ4


----------



## belerophon

Luck to be only injured....


----------



## Lombardia1970

New road near Bergamo open today!








Stop alle colonne nel centro di Verdello: apre il 21 la circonvallazione est


L’inaugurazione. Il taglio del nastro resta fissato al 27 dicembre ma da mercoledì 21 sarà possibile percorrere il tratto che permette di aggirare l’incrocio semaforico fra la ex statale 42 e via Cavour. Leggi l’approfondimento su «L’Eco di Bergamo» di mercoledì 21 dicembre.




www.ecodibergamo.it


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That was built relatively fast. March 2021 imagery in Google Earth doesn't show any construction yet.


----------



## brick84

*"Tangenziale/Pedemontana" of Palermo*

The Sicilian regional government has formally launched the planning for the construction of the "Pedemontana (Tangenziale)" of Palermo which will connect the A19 and A29 motorways.




















Viabilità, la Regione avvia la progettazione della Pedemontana di Palermo per collegare A19 e A29


Una nuova tangenziale di Palermo consentirà di razionalizzare il traffico extraurbano




www.regione.sicilia.it





Total lenght: 19,4 km

viaducts: 6
tunnels: 5
junctions: 6
speed limits: 70 : 120 km/h


----------



## keber

Long, long overdue, but better late than never. I remember how I mentally prepared before my first drive through Palermo on current tangenziale 13 years ago and took all possible precautions. As chaotic Sicilian traffic already it was, in Palermo it's was another level above that.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Long, long overdue, but better late than never. I remember how I mentally prepared before my first drive through Palermo on current tangenziale 13 years ago and took all possible precautions. As chaotic Sicilian traffic already it was, in Palermo it's was another level above that.


 Tangenziale is not gonna change any of that, though,


----------



## keber

I know, but at least it will be avoided when traveling to West Sicily.


----------



## brick84

g.spinoza said:


> Tangenziale is not gonna change any of that, though,





keber said:


> I know, but at least it will be avoided when traveling to West Sicily.


But along "viale Regione Siciliana" (the most busiest urban road in Italy) is gonna change.


----------



## italystf

keber said:


> Long, long overdue, but better late than never. I remember how I mentally prepared before my first drive through Palermo on current tangenziale 13 years ago and took all possible precautions. As chaotic Sicilian traffic already it was, in Palermo it's was another level above that.


The _tangenziale _have been further upgraded since then. All at-grade junctions with traffic lights have been replaced by interchanges and there are only 2 pedestrian crossings with traffic lights left (that are planned to be removed too).
However an outer bypass would probably be still useful to reduce congestion and pollution inside the city, leaving the old bypass only to suburban traffic.


----------



## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> Yes, manufacturers of road sings: are glad for new speed limit signs to be sold.
> Too much effort to apply traffic sensitive speed limits, just make it compulsory for anyone anytime…. and no one cares.
> Btw: it would be interesting to know what is the average speed on those roads at any given time. Maybe in some hour also lower speed limits may be necessary.


Both motorways are full-fledged motorways: A5 is straight as an arrow for its entire stretch in Piedmont. Many people drive well above 130.
Today I drove on A55 tangenziale of Turin: signs were already in place and VMP stated "beware of new speed limits".


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Both motorways are full-fledged motorways: A5 is straight as an arrow for its entire stretch in Piedmont. Many people drive well above 130.
> Today I drove on A55 tangenziale of Turin: signs were already in place and VMP stated "beware of new speed limits".


110 on A5 is plain ridiculous. On A55 it makes more sense as it's an urban motorway with junctions close each other.


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## italystf

brick84 said:


> Actually when you drive in lower part of A2 you will see "Sicilia" or "imbarchi per la Sicilia".
> 
> 
> In this is what you could read in the past when you dock in Villa San Giovanni
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 😅


Pre-1993 Italian border sign. Put here it looks like that Sicily isn't part of Italy. 
Unless Villa San Giovanni port had at some time connections with foreign ports (Tunisia? Malta? Greece?).


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## Attus

A lower speed limit for A5 (apart from theAlpine section) is hardly justifiyable (and I am really one of the slowest drivers in thie forum ;-)).


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## x-type

This summer I drove A10 in its whole length, and I was amazed how many places had limit 130 on such motorway. There were even no some special speed limits in numerous tunnels (for instance, in Austria, Slovenia, Croatia you have those agressive speed limit and attention warnings while approaching the tunnels). Even at the stretches with 100 or 110 on A10 nobody really cared about it too much. And that motorway really is exhausting to drive on, especially in that tempo.
And now they are doing this at A5?


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## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> This summer I drove A10 in its whole length, and I was amazed how many places had limit 130 on such motorway. There were even no some special speed limits in numerous tunnels (for instance, in Austria, Slovenia, Croatia you have those agressive speed limit and attention warnings while approaching the tunnels). Even at the stretches with 100 or 110 on A10 nobody really cared about it too much. And that motorway really is exhausting to drive on, especially in that tempo.
> And now they are doing this at A5?


The strange thing is that, according to the newspapers, it was the concessionaire's choice. I think only the ministry could decide speed limits on the network.


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## pccvspw999

It’s the up to whom manages/owns the road to decide how his road has to be used. Ministry probably has to be notified, and has word to say if necessary, but primarily it’s the road owner’s job and duty.


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## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> It’s the up to whom manages/owns the road to decide how his road has to be used. Ministry probably has to be notified, and has word to say if necessary, but primarily it’s the road owner’s job and duty.


Concessionaires are not the owners.


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## ChrisZwolle

Maybe there is some defect with the pavement which requires a lower speed limit, to be on the safe side?

For example, an issue with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_roughness_index


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## pccvspw999

g.spinoza said:


> Concessionaires are not the owners.


But they manage the road. They act “as owner”, in name of the owner.


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## MichiH

pccvspw999 said:


> But they manage the road. They act “as owner”, in name of the owner.


They manage the road as an operator but the don't own it. They act like a road authority, e.g. ANAS or ASFINAG in Austria or Die Autobahn in Germany.

Interesting find: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrade_of_Italy#Speed


> Legal provisions allow operators to set the limit to 150 km/h (95 mph) on their concessions on a voluntary basis if there are three lanes in each direction and a working SICVE, or Safety Tutor, which is a speed-camera system that measure the average speed over a given distance.


 If that's right, they can raise the limit. Does it also mean, that they can lower it? For technical reasons for sure.


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## x-type

I think it is definitely not too complicated to come with some statistics which can easily make the harsh speed limits aproved by legal bodies.


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## g.spinoza

Construction of 4th lane on A1 Milan-Lodi has started:









A1, via ai lavori per la quarta corsia dell'Autostrada del Sole tra Milano e Lodi | Clicca qui


Anche l'A1 avrà la quarta corsia. Sono infatti iniziati i lavori all’altezza di San Zenone al Lambro per l’ampliamento dell’Autostrada del Sole tra Milano e




www.mitomorrow.it





Works will involve 17 km, between Tangenziale Ovest and Lodi, will cost 207 M€ and last 36 months. 15 overpasses and 8 viaducts (including the bridge over Lambro river) will be enlarged.


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## Eddard Stark

I can imagine fewer useless enlargement projects.


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## Lombardia1970

Passante di Bologna, spunta il primo cartello di inizio lavori. VIDEO


BOLOGNA – Dopo vent’anni di polemiche, rinvii e stalli i lavori per il Passante di Bologna sembrano essere ufficialmente partiti. Di fianco al Parco Nord sono comparse le transenne arancioni e un cartello che annuncia il progetto di potenziamento del sistema autostradale e tangenziale di...




www.bolognaindiretta.it




Passante di Bologna work of construction start today


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## x-type

Lombardia1970 said:


> Passante di Bologna, spunta il primo cartello di inizio lavori. VIDEO
> 
> 
> BOLOGNA – Dopo vent’anni di polemiche, rinvii e stalli i lavori per il Passante di Bologna sembrano essere ufficialmente partiti. Di fianco al Parco Nord sono comparse le transenne arancioni e un cartello che annuncia il progetto di potenziamento del sistema autostradale e tangenziale di...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bolognaindiretta.it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passante di Bologna work of construction start today


Can you give some general info? Length, road number etc...


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## Lombardia1970

x-type said:


> Can you give some general info? Length, road number etc...











This is the project


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## Lombardia1970

x-type said:


> Can you give some general info? Length, road number etc...








Passante di Bologna - Autostrade per l'Italia


Offre informazioni sulla rete autostradale italiana, i Punti Blu, la Viacard ed il Telepass, fornisce anche un servizio di previsione traffico e meteo in tempo reale.




www.autostrade.it


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## keber

So in short: this project looks like just adding an additional outside lane to local colector lanes of existing A14 (which are clogged almost everytime I drive through Bologna on A13 and A14).
Everything else is just a typical greenwashing how ecological this project is with adding some cycle infrastructure and planting new trees (after cutting down existing ones).


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## x-type

Yeah, it seems so. I thought it was about some new outer bypass between A1-A13-A14. I hope they have some good idea about southern terminus of A13 which is too often congested with jams.


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## Eddard Stark

One more lane, just one more lane!


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## geogregor

keber said:


> So in short: this project looks like just adding an additional outside lane to local colector lanes of existing A14 (which are clogged almost everytime I drive through Bologna on A13 and A14).
> Everything else is just a typical greenwashing how ecological this project is with adding some cycle infrastructure and planting new trees (after cutting down existing ones).


Looks like massive project just to add one extra lane to collector lanes. Pretty much every single structure crossing the road will have to be rebuilt. And there are quite a few of them.


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## x-type

Are they at least adding hard shoulders to inner transit part?


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## g.spinoza

keber said:


> So in short: this project looks like just adding an additional outside lane to local colector lanes of existing A14 (which are clogged almost everytime I drive through Bologna on A13 and A14).
> Everything else is just a typical greenwashing how ecological this project is with adding some cycle infrastructure and planting new trees (after cutting down existing ones).


No.
The project is adding 1 lane + emergency to A14 (bringing it to 3+1) and 1 lane to the tangenziale (2 between exits 6 and 8).


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## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> No.
> The project is adding 1 lane + emergency to A14 (bringing it to 3+1) and 1 lane to the tangenziale (2 between exits 6 and 8).


And that of 1.5bn euro? It seems to be extremely cheap for this project.


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## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> And that of 1.5bn euro? It seems to be extremely cheap for this project.


The intervention is only on 13 km, I don't think it is cheap.


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## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> The intervention is only on 13 km, I don't think it is cheap.


Yes, 13km, but in a densely built area, several intersections, bridges must be rebuilt, it's not a simple widening in the fields somewhere.


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## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> Yes, 13km, but in a densely built area, several intersections, bridges must be rebuilt, it's not a simple widening in the fields somewhere.


Here they only say they have to demolish and rebuild 5 overpasses. Maybe the platform doesn't have to be touched that much, dunno.


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## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> Here they only say they have to demolish and rebuild 5 overpasses. Maybe the platform doesn't have to be touched that much, dunno.


I admit my Italian is far from to be perfect. But I read it through and I can't see how it is possible. E.g. both Via Ferrarese and Stalingrado (approx. 300m apart from each other) shall only "riqualifica", although alone the tangenziale shall have 4 lanes + emergency (quattro corsie più emergenza il tratto che collega lo svincolo 6 allo svincolo 8) instead of 3 without emergency currently.
Google Satellite:
https://www.google.it/maps/@44.5237371,11.3623261,364m/data=!3m1!1e3And that's only an example.


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## g.spinoza

Next February, third lane enlargement works on A11 will start.
First lot is Peretola - Prato Est (9 km)








La terza corsia A11 non è un sogno A fine febbraio partono i cantieri - Cronaca - lanazione.it


Il progetto per il primo lotto (Peretola-Prato Est) è ora al vaglio del Consiglio superiore dei lavori pubblici. Salvo particolari prescrizioni tra due mesi via ai lavori, già appaltati da Autostrade alla Pavimental




www.lanazione.it


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