# Making Transit Attractive to More Commuters



## Spikespiegel (Jul 13, 2009)

fieldsofdreams said:


> Does CPH have a bus or train prediction system that allows you to estimate a vehicle's estimated time of arrival? Or is it that you will need to rely on both your eyes and on the schedule to see if the vehicle arrives on schedule?


http://byenspuls.dsb.dk/byens_puls/ByensPuls.html
If he has a smartphone, he can download the app that tells you exactly how many minutes there is before the next train departs from his closest station.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

Spikespiegel said:


> http://byenspuls.dsb.dk/byens_puls/ByensPuls.html
> If he has a smartphone, he can download the app that tells you exactly how many minutes there is before the next train departs from his closest station.


you can send him a Private Message directly to him and give him that link so that he will stop guessing the next bus or train. Thank you for your help!


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## Spikespiegel (Jul 13, 2009)

Spikespiegel said:


> http://byenspuls.dsb.dk/byens_puls/ByensPuls.html
> If he has a smartphone, he can download the app that tells you exactly how many minutes there is before the next train departs from his closest station.


-Update-
App 1:
The railway company's own app. Shows down to 1 second how delayed a train is. Also has a feature where it will notify you of any changes to the timetables.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/...1bGwsMSwxLDEsImRhbmllbC5hcHBzLkJ5ZW5zUHVscyJd

App 2:
A privately developed app., made to counter issues with the early versions of the railway company's own app. It also shows delayed trains down to 1 second, however it only counts a train as delayed if it is 5 minutes or more behind schedule, as compared the the railway company's own app that has a treshold of 2.5 minutes. It doesn't show changes to the timetables, but it does have a neat feature where it lists all cancelled trains.
Best features of this app is that it can show you when the trains on the nearest station departs.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/...yLDEsImRrLmpsc29mdC5hbmRyb2lkLmJ5ZW5zcHVscyJd


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Having an integrated system helps. It really helps making the system much easier to use if all lines, no matter what mode (subway, trams, buses, possibly including important ferry lines or other possibly relevant alternative connectors) within a central zone (which should be the city proper at least). Outside this zone a simple zone system should apply. Alternatively one can have a card based system where people can easily get a card where all transactions are made on that single card. 

Moreover, what some cities (like Dublin for example) are horribly in is, to make the network as a whole crystal clear to understand. What I think is great about the Viennese system is that you have in all major stops and even in lots of simple bus stops maps of the entire network of the entire city proper. You also have a timetable at every single stop. Again I've seen cities where you have no information at all at bus stops. That really does not help. 

Of course, in our modern world an efficient routing app, mobile and online for the PC at home are a must. 

These three things should not be ignored next to obvious factors like frequency, coverage, integration of different modes into the network, cleanliness of infrastructure, maintenance and punctuality etc.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

Slartibartfas said:


> Having an integrated system helps. It really helps making the system much easier to use if all lines, no matter what mode (subway, trams, buses, possibly including important ferry lines or other possibly relevant alternative connectors) within a central zone (which should be the city proper at least). Outside this zone a simple zone system should apply. Alternatively one can have a card based system where people can easily get a card where all transactions are made on that single card.
> 
> Moreover, what some cities (like Dublin for example) are horribly in is, to make the network as a whole crystal clear to understand. What I think is great about the Viennese system is that you have in all major stops and even in lots of simple bus stops maps of the entire network of the entire city proper. You also have a timetable at every single stop. Again I've seen cities where you have no information at all at bus stops. That really does not help.
> 
> ...


Those are my same sentiments as well. I hear your thoughts and concerns, and I really believe in a well-integrated, tightly-knit transit network that accepts multiple modes of payment, as well as allowing the Honor System to be implemented on most modes of transport, and a simplified zone system. As for routing apps, those are instrumental indeed to a transit agency's success or failure in bringing quality service to its riders. And providing schedules on each bus stop will help riders predict what time their next bus will come, lessening the guesswork.


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## Dahlis (Aug 29, 2008)

Frequent service is the most important thing. Money is not, driving is a lot more expensive. People complaining that public transport is to expensive need to get their facts straight.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

Dahlis said:


> Frequent service is the most important thing. Money is not, driving is a lot more expensive. People complaining that public transport is to expensive need to get their facts straight.


Ah yes. How frequent would you like your service? Let me tell you: more frequent service = more manpower to drive the buses = more vehicles needed to serve = more expensive.


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## bongo-anders (Oct 26, 2008)

Its a good suggestion with Byens Puls and probably also Rejseplanen.dk (travel planner) but that doesn't change the timetable for my local bus. I will still have to wait for the bus at the station.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

bongo-anders said:


> Its a good suggestion with Byens Puls and probably also Rejseplanen.dk (travel planner) but that doesn't change the timetable for my local bus. I will still have to wait for the bus at the station.


Hmmm... does your transit agency have a "Next Bus" prediction system that allows riders like you predict what time your next bus comes in at your stop?


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

His problem is the lack of connection. Only every 3rd train has a connecting bus. For the rest, one has to wait.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

RawLee said:


> His problem is the lack of connection. Only every 3rd train has a connecting bus. For the rest, one has to wait.


Ah, I see. Interesting. Looks like something needs to be addressed in that situation... Either add more bus trips or ask the village council to initiate a shuttle service that will provide riders frequent service between his community and the train station.


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## bongo-anders (Oct 26, 2008)

I also think that something will be done in the future, the the central and southern part of Køge has the A bus system with a 10 minute interval but us in the northern suburb (Ølsemagle) will have to wait for bus 120 that only goes every 30th minute in the rush hour.

The solution is that Køge will get a station on a new HSR line out of Copenhagen and this station called Køge Nord will be located just west of Ølsemagle so I think that 101A will be connected to this station but at that time (in 2018) I can walk from Køge Nord instead of taking the bus. :-D


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

I think that as long as the service is fast, reliable and the service times are very clear then its fine. Having a website where you can search services and see the times they run and how much a ticket would cost I think is very important, as having to go to the station and read a wall time table sheet is a pain. Also displays on the platforms that show the next train to arrive and its destination.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

poshbakerloo said:


> I think that as long as the service is fast, reliable and the service times are very clear then its fine. Having a website where you can search services and see the times they run and how much a ticket would cost I think is very important, as having to go to the station and read a wall time table sheet is a pain. Also displays on the platforms that show the next train to arrive and its destination.


I think mobile apps are already doing similar functions as those shown on websites. The interesting part is that while many transit apps show departure times or real time vehicle predictions, the same apps do not necessarily show the basic information for a particular transit service, which forces riders to either ask the driver when boarding a vehicle or wait for another passenger to help him/her out.


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## CF221 (Mar 17, 2009)

The best way to make transit attractive to people is to provide public transportation. It should be done in a way that you do not need to drive a car to reach any and all points of the city. That is what cities in the U.S. most desperately need. Summed up, the will of the people to stop being complacent when highways and streets are clogged up with traffic and to demand to their government that public transportation is one of their highest priorities.

EDIT:

to me, other ways to make transit attractive are mainly based on

-reliable arrival,departure, and travel times 
-service available at all times
-making sure that transit is safe and secure

I, being from Miami, where there is a complete lack of a proper transportation system, was able to watch closely the reasons why the NY transit system (mainly the subway) was so convenient and became my main form of transportation during my last visit. 

1st: it was available, a station was located a few blocks away.
2nd: trains were on time, or fairly close to it.
3rd: trains were available 24/7, or most of the time. 
4th: the fares were not abusive, but were enough to maintain the subway system (or so I thought )
5th: it was safe. I would have trouble riding on a form of transportation where I knew I wouldn't be secure.

:cheers:


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

CF221 said:


> The best way to make transit attractive to people is to provide public transportation. It should be done in a way that you do not need to drive a car to reach any and all points of the city. That is what cities in the U.S. most desperately need. Summed up, the will of the people to stop being complacent when highways and streets are clogged up with traffic and to demand to their government that public transportation is one of their highest priorities.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> ...


Ah. Like provide people with a sufficient and decent public transportation network. I truly understand your view on that one. Yeah, the Los Angeles model of freeways full of cars may seem to translate to freedom for people to drive around cities -- even for short hops to the grocery store -- but many people do not realize that it can be environmentally destructive, especially for those who like to drive alone for long commutes, because carbon emissions will eventually add up if thousands of solo drivers commute in the same direction every single day. Public transit helps cut down the carbon emissions rating per person by distributing the amount of pollution released by a bus or train into the atmosphere by the number of people on board a vehicle, plus it also allows you to relax and chill out on your commute by reading, working or sleeping on board instead of haggling and hustling with traffic, tolls, and parking. The main problem with providing a decent public transportation network in many cities has been funding and allocations: many of the same public transit agencies you see on the roadways are usually subsidized by federal, state, county, and city funding, not to mention grants and loans. Sometimes, counties levy a certain amount of tax to be used for transportation development (usually around 0.005 cents) so that they can gain additional revenue to provide more transit services. And when any one of those sources dry up or has gone, transit agencies then scramble on what to do to save their network. And I find that really sad because it seems like for over 30 years, transportation funding has been focused on widening freeways rather than providing transit options for commuters.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

fieldsofdreams said:


> Ah, I see. Interesting. Looks like something needs to be addressed in that situation... Either add more bus trips or ask the village council to initiate a shuttle service that will provide riders frequent service between his community and the train station.


I dont see any problem with that. If someone lives in the village, then bear the consequences. There are places here that see a bus every 3-4 hours. Who will pay for the increased service, if the amount of passangers wont double?


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

RawLee said:


> I dont see any problem with that. If someone lives in the village, then bear the consequences. There are places here that see a bus every 3-4 hours. Who will pay for the increased service, if the amount of passangers wont double?


That's true. It then shows the pros and cons indeed of living in suburbia or a village... You like the quiet atmosphere, but you might also miss out on opportunities in the city.


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## bongo-anders (Oct 26, 2008)

But I will not call Køge with around 35.000 inhabitants a village, as I told before the central and southern part of the city has a bus line with 10th minute service its only the northern suburbs of Ølby Lyng and Ølsemagle Lyng that doesn't have this service.

Even though most of the citizens in Ølby Lyng are in a 20 minute walking distance from Ølby Station us in Ølsemagle Lyng will have to walk between 20-50minutes in order to reach the station.



But the new HSR and S-train station called Køge Nord will be located at the south western part of Ølsemagle along the motorway so this will help alot but this station first opens in 2018 so until then we have to deal with this issue.


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## Penn's Woods (Apr 8, 2010)

fieldsofdreams said:


> ....plus it also allows you to relax and chill out on your commute by reading, working or sleeping on board....


Please. One cell phone or loud conversation within earshot makes those activities impossible, at least for me. I gave up trying to read on trains years ago because it was too frustrating.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

Penn's Woods said:


> Please. One cell phone or loud conversation within earshot makes those activities impossible, at least for me. I gave up trying to read on trains years ago because it was too frustrating.


I understand what you mean. Ever brought headphones or earplugs on board to minimize background noise?


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

fieldsofdreams said:


> Ah yes. How frequent would you like your service? Let me tell you: more frequent service = more manpower to drive the buses = more vehicles needed to serve = more expensive.


We have a frequent service and it is moderately priced (for a heavy user, but very expensive for a light/occasional user). The frequency and quality of the service makes us a very transit-heavy city.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

bongo-anders said:


> But I will not call Køge with around 35.000 inhabitants a village, as I told before the central and southern part of the city has a bus line with 10th minute service its only the northern suburbs of Ølby Lyng and Ølsemagle Lyng that doesn't have this service.
> 
> Even though most of the citizens in Ølby Lyng are in a 20 minute walking distance from Ølby Station us in Ølsemagle Lyng will have to walk between 20-50minutes in order to reach the station.
> 
> ...


Its not the number of inhabitants that matter. Its the density.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

Speaking of density, probably it explains why suburbs have less transit service than in the inner cities and its immediate area: with more potential ridership bases, a transit agency is more likely to succeed if it can cover a lot of areas at once (i.e. dense apartment blocks to train stations, rowhouses to shopping malls, and the like). I think future planners should seriously consider density, especially in bringing even more life to suburbia, so that more investments in transit can be made. What do you think?


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## Penn's Woods (Apr 8, 2010)

^^It needn't be limited to transit agencies: I'm struck in Philadelphia (your mention of apartment blocks triggered this) by how many high-rise complexes, perhaps a little far from the center of town for people to walk routinely, have their own buses running routes through Center City (that's Philadelphian for "downtown").

Just a stray thought....


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^It needn't be limited to transit agencies: I'm struck in Philadelphia (your mention of apartment blocks triggered this) by how many high-rise complexes, perhaps a little far from the center of town for people to walk routinely, have their own buses running routes through Center City (that's Philadelphian for "downtown").
> 
> Just a stray thought....


How many of those SEPTA buses are full by the way? Plus, do those buses run all-day daily, peak-periods only, or weekdays only?


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## CF221 (Mar 17, 2009)

Penn's Woods said:


> Please. One cell phone or loud conversation within earshot makes those activities impossible, at least for me. I gave up trying to read on trains years ago because it was too frustrating.


Trust me on this one, If you had a choice between riding a bus or train with some random people having a aloud conversation, or having to drive to and from work anywhere that requires you to take Miami's eight street, you'd most likely go and even join your neighbors loud conversation! This aforementioned street is so congested that it once took me 3 light stages to be able to cross just one traffic light on eight street. I had about a mile of cars in front of me. It is really sad. Traffic here gets worse by the day. Part of the reason is the inmense amount of sprawl which has settled on the fringes of the everglades, another reason is the complete lack of a decent transportation system.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

CF221 said:


> Trust me on this one, If you had a choice between riding a bus or train with some random people having a aloud conversation, or having to drive to and from work anywhere that requires you to take Miami's eight street, you'd most likely go and even join your neighbors loud conversation! This aforementioned street is so congested that it once took me 3 light stages to be able to cross just one traffic light on eight street. I had about a mile of cars in front of me. It is really sad. Traffic here gets worse by the day. Part of the reason is the inmense amount of sprawl which has settled on the fringes of the everglades, another reason is the complete lack of a decent transportation system.


Speaking of Miami, how developed is the Miami-Dade Transit bus network? It seems like some of your bus lines are actually letters instead of numbers, especially Line L. Plus, do you believe that that the TriMet rail network can be expanded to serve beyond Fort Lauderdale and points south of Miami, like say anywhere close to the start of the Keys bridge?


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## CF221 (Mar 17, 2009)

fieldsofdreams said:


> Speaking of Miami, how developed is the Miami-Dade Transit bus network? It seems like some of your bus lines are actually letters instead of numbers, especially Line L. Plus, do you believe that that the TriMet rail network can be expanded to serve beyond Fort Lauderdale and points south of Miami, like say anywhere close to the start of the Keys bridge?


The Miami bus network (to what I know), is pretty seizable, however, its effect is just minuscule compared to the traffic and the large areas it has to cover. Also, many of the lines only have week-days only service (which affects those who would otherwise count on this type of public transportation, like one of my friends, for example). They are also very inconsistent with arrival and travel times (anywhere from 25 minutes to an hour, as I experienced many times), and they are very inconvenient, as one would have to risk their lives crossing a huge 4 lane avenue with overspeeding cars just to get to a bus top that many times doesn't even have a roof to cover from the blazing sun. That's just it, the county is stretching their dollars with public transit while they very easily give away millions to widen highways. I think they do not foresee the effects that this abandonment of public transportation might have on the Miami Dade economy in the future. I think the possibility of having a TriMet rail network beyond Ft. Lauderdale is very possible. Positive signs that point to this can be found, such as the fact that All Aboard Florida, a private company, is seeking to establish a rail corridor all the way from Orlando, passing through downtown WPB, dwntn. Ft Laud, and into Miami's downtown where it has planned a major station. Things look bright for these rail plans. However, things do not looks so bright for the rest of the TriMet rail networks, which have never gotten off the ground mainly because money has never been allocated. On another note, political mismanagement of funds is another reason. Early on, they promised to build a huge overground rail network connecting the entire city, with a one-cent sales tax that would go directly to it, but they only got to building a few lines, and the money went to maintenance of buses instead (or something unrelated to construction of new infrastructure), leaving Mia without the more vital lines that would've connected downtown with very populated sections to the west, and Florida International University, a hotspot of activity.

I think there is very little chance some kind of rail connection will be made to the south, to the start of the road towards the Keys.


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## Penn's Woods (Apr 8, 2010)

fieldsofdreams said:


> How many of those SEPTA buses are full by the way? Plus, do those buses run all-day daily, peak-periods only, or weekdays only?


I mean buses run by the apartment complexes, not SEPTA. I only know they exist because they'll be branded with the complex's logo and so on. No idea of schedule. I'd guess they cater to both commuters and retirees who don't drive, so perhaps rush hours, during the day, maybe evenings? But that's just a guess.



CF221 said:


> Trust me on this one, If you had a choice between riding a bus or train with some random people having a aloud conversation, or having to drive to and from work anywhere that requires you to take Miami's eight street, you'd most likely go and even join your neighbors loud conversation! This aforementioned street is so congested that it once took me 3 light stages to be able to cross just one traffic light on eight street. I had about a mile of cars in front of me. It is really sad. Traffic here gets worse by the day. Part of the reason is the inmense amount of sprawl which has settled on the fringes of the everglades, another reason is the complete lack of a decent transportation system.


Well, as I've said up-thread, my daily commute is a five-block walk (unless I'm running late; then it's bus if I'm lucky, otherwise cab). I used to take trains all the time up and down the East Coast (for visiting my parents or for leisure) when I didn't have a car, but I actually like driving.

I don't know if I'd choose driving over public transit for a commute from the suburbs; I'm just saying the it's-more-relaxing argument isn't necessarily valid for everyone. Both driving and public transit have their own irritations. And rush-hour traffic is certainly one of them.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

CF221 said:


> The Miami bus network (to what I know), is pretty seizable, however, its effect is just minuscule compared to the traffic and the large areas it has to cover. Also, many of the lines only have week-days only service (which affects those who would otherwise count on this type of public transportation, like one of my friends, for example). They are also very inconsistent with arrival and travel times (anywhere from 25 minutes to an hour, as I experienced many times), and they are very inconvenient, as one would have to risk their lives crossing a huge 4 lane avenue with overspeeding cars just to get to a bus top that many times doesn't even have a roof to cover from the blazing sun. That's just it, the county is stretching their dollars with public transit while they very easily give away millions to widen highways. I think they do not foresee the effects that this abandonment of public transportation might have on the Miami Dade economy in the future. I think the possibility of having a TriMet rail network beyond Ft. Lauderdale is very possible. Positive signs that point to this can be found, such as the fact that All Aboard Florida, a private company, is seeking to establish a rail corridor all the way from Orlando, passing through downtown WPB, dwntn. Ft Laud, and into Miami's downtown where it has planned a major station. Things look bright for these rail plans. However, things do not looks so bright for the rest of the TriMet rail networks, which have never gotten off the ground mainly because money has never been allocated. On another note, political mismanagement of funds is another reason. Early on, they promised to build a huge overground rail network connecting the entire city, with a one-cent sales tax that would go directly to it, but they only got to building a few lines, and the money went to maintenance of buses instead (or something unrelated to construction of new infrastructure), leaving Mia without the more vital lines that would've connected downtown with very populated sections to the west, and Florida International University, a hotspot of activity.
> 
> I think there is very little chance some kind of rail connection will be made to the south, to the start of the road towards the Keys.


Oh. So it looks like political corruption and mismanagement from state, county, and city levels are also prevalent there in your patch, especially that Gov. Rick Scott prioritizes things other than infrastructure: a proposed HSR network turned down, and now money allocated by Tallahassee to widen highways rather than expanding bus and rail networks? Now I understand why Florida is running into a lot of financial and economic problems... Looks like the priorities are indeed mixed up and endorsed by powerful lobbyists and fellow career politicians who are after money, power, and prestige. I am excited though for TriMet's expansion; I'm looking for even more rail projects where possible to allow even more commuters from areas underserved by transit. And any developments with a daily rail service between Downtown Miami and the suburbs with Miami International Airport?


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## CF221 (Mar 17, 2009)

^^ There are in fact plans drawn up and supposedly "about to take place" to make several BRT lines in about two major arteries of the city. One runs from downtown to the south using US.1, connecting the southern neighborhoods closest to this route. The other one plans to come from south of the airport, using the highway, getting off at 107 ave and making a stop to connect with Miami Int'l Mall and Dolphin Mall, and then u-turning South to reach FIU, and turning west on eight street, going almost to the fringes of the everglades where about two park-and ride stations are planned. These plans are supposedly taking shape, but in my view its taking too long. However, it promises to be a major change to this choked-full-of-traffic major artery.


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