# MISC | High Speed Rail Discussion



## Evil Bert (Feb 20, 2003)

stone henge is so much better if you know the history behind it...makes it very mysterious and can make up your own mind what it was created for. i believe it was a place for fertility and where there wer massive parties....not much changed then haha, also its the one of the first ever buildings/bunch of stones ever constructed still everdent today, UK has the most of these structures still evedent in england today but people only know about stonehendge


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## worldwide70rm (Jul 27, 2007)

Even Stonehenge is not London...is pretty closed to the capital London


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

worldwide70rm said:


> Even Stonehenge is not London...is pretty closed to the capital London


140 Km, not too far away but not exactly walkable


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## vox20 (Jun 27, 2006)

Jaeger said:


> Does your city have any high speed rail links with other major cities??????


ER200 Msk- Spb, 175 khm commercial speed, running on common tracks with other trains.
As for dedicated high-speed trains - no. Even the most promising Moscow-St.Peterburg direction does not have passenger traffic to make high speed rail profitable. Even if all existing plane traffic will be diverted to highspeed rail. And those who use conventional trains now are not likely to swich to high-speed if it appears due to higher cost.


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## iampuking (Mar 10, 2007)

Here is a video about the line, posted on the UK forums:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2007/08/07/stpancras_winstanley_video_feature.shtml

And the impressive train shed that has been refurbished


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## EtherealMist (Jul 26, 2005)

That is so cool how you could travel between to of the most important cities in the world in a couple of hours.




northsider1983 said:


> I wish Amtrak in the States wasn't so expensive...it's cheaper to fly anywhere.


I hear ya, Amtrak is such a rip off.

When I travel between Boston and NYC I can take Amtrak for $80-$100 ...or take greyhound for $15. O yeah and they take basically the same amount of time.


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

^^ Don't forget the Chinatown Buses. :lol:


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## spongeg (May 1, 2006)

HEY ISN'T THAT IN HARRY POTTER


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## DetoX (May 12, 2004)

There should be ultra speed rail beetween: Boston - New York - Trenton - Philly - Baltimore - DC


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## Jaeger (May 11, 2006)

spongeg said:


> HEY ISN'T THAT IN HARRY POTTER


The steam train used in the Harry Potter films was the Olton Hall belonging to the North Yorkshire Moors Railway, some of the scenes were filmed in the Scottish Highlands, and the train does now operate on the Highland Railway and other locations as part of HP Fan Trips (Harry Potter). 

HP Fan Trips Website

http://www.hpfantrips.com/

Sadlly the one in the pic is to far away to tell which type of steam train she is, never mind if she is the Olton Hall.

The Olton Hall










Steam Trains are still run by several UK Companies including the Orient Express Pullman and Northern Belle.

http://www.orient-express.com/web/nb/nb_a2a_home.jsp

http://www.orient-express.com/web/bp/bp_a2a_home.jsp

North Yorkshire Moors Railway -

http://www.nymr.co.uk/

Some UK steam train operators -

http://www.steamdreams.com/

http://steamyaffairs.net/

http://www.kingfisherrailtours.co.uk/

http://www.steamtrain.info/

http://www.vintagetrains.co.uk/


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## Trainman Dave (Mar 30, 2007)

Jonesy55 said:


> Ah, ok, so what's the distance as the track goes?


The track distance between St Pancras station and Gard du Nord in Paris (via Lille) is about 490 km. Thus a non-stop journey in 2:15 will travel at about 218 km/h. This includes the actual tunnel were the speed is restricted to 160 km/h.


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## Joka (Feb 7, 2006)

Jaeger said:


> Does your city have any high speed rail links with other major cities??????


Helsinki and St. Petersburg should have a 3h service running between them by 2011. Not really "high-speed" in the sense of TGV high-speed, plus you have to get a visa, but compared to the current 5 hours it's significantly faster. There have been talks of a completely new route which would cut off some 100km of the journey, the feasibility of such a route is currently being evaluated.

If only Helsinki was called London of the North then it would be a comical coincidence, sort of.


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

Even the small city where I am currently living, Bielefeld (327 k inhabitants) has high-speed train connectionsto Berlin and Ruhrgebiet and Cologne,...


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## geoking66 (Jun 27, 2006)

DetoX said:


> There should be ultra speed rail beetween: Boston - New York - Trenton - Philly - Baltimore - DC


I'd be happier if they lowered the price to something around $50 rather than the current $139 for Acela Express trips.


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## [email protected] (May 7, 2007)

There is the design to do digging of a tunnel in Korean Pusan from Japan. Into the tunnel, It seem to be going to run a bullet train. 
However, the possibility to be realized will be low because it takes a vast cost.
In Japan, a construction design of MAGLEV advances from Tokyo to Osaka.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> There is the design to do digging of a tunnel in Korean Pusan from Japan. Into the tunnel, It seem to be going to run a bullet train.
> However, the possibility to be realized will be low because it takes a vast cost.
> In Japan, a construction design of MAGLEV advances from Tokyo to Osaka.


Where would it go to, Fukuoka?


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## [email protected] (May 7, 2007)

Jonesy55 said:


> Where would it go to, Fukuoka?


Yes, it is so. 
But Fukuoka side seems to be negative in dread of a financial burden.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Yes, it is so.
> But Fukuoka side seems to be negative in dread of a financial burden.


Yes, I think it would be a huge expense. Also, is the area an earthquake zone?


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## xXFallenXx (Jun 15, 2007)

DetoX said:


> There should be ultra speed rail beetween: Boston - New York - Trenton - Philly - Baltimore - DC


There probably will be.
http://www.bwmaglev.com/


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## urbanfan89 (May 30, 2007)

On the many high speed rail lines around (e.g. at least 200 km/h, preferably 250 or 300 km/h), what is the average spacing between stations? Are there shorter spacings within metropolitan areas to allow suburbs to be served? How far outside the main city station does the high speed track typically begin?

I'm just curious, since I'm doodling on a map for a possible HSR in this area.

Thanks in advance.


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## elfabyanos (Jun 18, 2006)

gincan said:


> On HSR lines you have direct trains (no stops), trains with intermediate stops and regional express service, just like you have on non HSR.


Not really, especially on French ones that are nearing saturation point. Every train can only stop maximum once or twice and mostly not at all while on the HSR, so any train is effectively the same type of train whilst on the line. Once they leave the HSR the services can do whatever, but then that's not what the threads about.


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## Richard Mlynarik (Apr 14, 2006)

elfabyanos said:


> Not really, especially on French ones that are nearing saturation point. Every train can only stop maximum once or twice and mostly not at all while on the HSR, so any train is effectively the same type of train whilst on the line. Once they leave the HSR the services can do whatever, but then that's not what the threads about.


I suppose this must be impossible then: Tokaido-Sanyo Shinkansen double-track operation


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## elfabyanos (Jun 18, 2006)

The link you have provided (that I haven't even looked at because I know very well how the shinkansen works) shows intermdiate stopping services passed by express ones. However there are no non-express services on the line.

Japan is also unique in this kind of service. Nowhere else on earth has built HSR in a similar way, apart from Taiwan which could have similarities.


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## Avientu (Jul 12, 2007)

sotavento said:


> wether you like it or not Guadalajara is in the catchment area of Madrid. hno:


Ok, but not a suburb of Madrid as you said. :|


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

elfabyanos said:


> Not really, especially on French ones that are nearing saturation point. Every train can only stop maximum once or twice and mostly not at all while on the HSR, so any train is effectively the same type of train whilst on the line. Once they leave the HSR the services can do whatever, but then that's not what the threads about.


A assume that by French ones you are talking about LGV1 ???? I'm I correct ???

LGV1 is the perfect example of french stuborness ... it should have been quadrupled long ago between Paris and Lyon ... :bash:

It's the "odd case" and not the rule ... it simply can't acomodate for any more traffic ... but they insist in creating more traffic to put in the small 2 tracks. 

Nowhere else in the world theres suck stuborness ... maiby half the TGV traffic in europe is compressed into a 2 track section of 500 miles ... how many destinations are served hourly thru that line in particular??? hno:



elfabyanos said:


> The link you have provided (that I haven't even looked at because I know very well how the shinkansen works) shows intermdiate stopping services passed by express ones. However there are no non-express services on the line.
> 
> Japan is also unique in this kind of service. Nowhere else on earth has built HSR in a similar way, apart from Taiwan which could have similarities.


there are lots of services operating in that manner ... start by looking precisely at JR.xpto HST's 

To a much smaller scale it happens in Renfe's own AVE network 



Richard Mlynarik said:


> I suppose this must be impossible then: Tokaido-Sanyo Shinkansen double-track operation


As it is shouwn in that topic ... it is perfectly possible ... since it happens everyday. 



Avientu said:


> Ok, but not a suburb of Madrid as you said. :|


We are not speaking of guadalajara as a "suburb" but as a station in the HSL in the outer ring of the Madrid Stations Catchment area.

In a way even chamartin and Atocha are both "suburban" stations served as neither of them is in the city center. :cheers:


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## gincan (Feb 1, 2006)

^^
From Atocha you can walk to Puerta del Sol in less than 15 minutes, or a 2 min subway ride, hardly suburban. Chamartin on the other hand is more of suburban caracter, but you are only a 5 minute subway ride away from the CBD.


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## UrbanBen (Apr 7, 2006)

elfabyanos said:


> The link you have provided (that I haven't even looked at because I know very well how the shinkansen works) shows intermdiate stopping services passed by express ones. However there are no non-express services on the line.
> 
> Japan is also unique in this kind of service. Nowhere else on earth has built HSR in a similar way, apart from Taiwan which could have similarities.


Excuse me.

There are three services on Tokaido-Sanyo: Kodama (all stops), Hikari (some stops), and Nozomi (very limited). While the line itself is called 'super express', that's just by virtue of the high speed. Here's a video I took of a Kodama stopped at Himeji, passed by a Nozomi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j_lZnvsKeU

Are you saying that you can't mix low speed and high speed trains? That is indeed true, within limits, because of the signaling systems and block length. 

Regarding the thread... TGV Est has minimum 3 minute headways (TVM 430 signaling on 1500m blocks). Service will eventually reach that, after the line extension is completed. I have no idea what it is now (although that's me being lazy, because I have the damn schedule sitting next to me).


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## elfabyanos (Jun 18, 2006)

A stop at 300km/h costs 6-7 minutes. Add the 3 minute headway that's 10 minutes against a train that doesn't stop at the station.

A stop at 130km/h costs 2 minutes.

Hence stops on HSRs don't feature that much as the severity of the capacity reduction increases exponentially with the service speed of the line.

Non-express services would generally mean slow services on 160km/h trundling high capacity trains - that definitely isn't what's going on on Shinkansen.


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## gincan (Feb 1, 2006)

elfabyanos said:


> A stop at 300km/h costs 6-7 minutes. Add the 3 minute headway that's 10 minutes against a train that doesn't stop at the station.
> 
> A stop at 130km/h costs 2 minutes.
> 
> ...


It depends on many factors like slots, train acceleration and retardation, if the station permit throughtraffic at full speed while another train load/unload at the same time, the signaling system is also very important. Still very few lines have installed the full ERTMS system which permit a lot denser traffic.

On the Barcelona-Madrid line they have both direct sevice and trains with 4 (5 once the Prat station opens) intermediate stops. There will also be regional service, Madrid-Calatayud and Barcelona-Leida in future. But of cause the line is new and still very underused.


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## UD2 (Jan 21, 2006)

Spacing on railways mainly deals with the gap between parallel tracks, as wider spacing is needed as trains travel faster to avoid trains travelling in opposite directions toppeling eachother over.

Distance between stations, on the other hand, has never been an recorded statistic. Norms are for faster trains to have stops further apart, but that's just for effeciency. It isn't like motorways where exits and interchanges must be at least a certain distance.


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## elfabyanos (Jun 18, 2006)

I've just reread myself over the last few days and imo I have been rude. My apologies everyone!!!


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## Alargule (Feb 21, 2005)

^^ Damn mouse...


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## apaoli (Feb 5, 2008)

*ICE VELARO D*

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:yGeB8Sdf3SAJ:www.siemens.com/press/pool/de/materials/industry/imo/velaro_d_en.pdf+ice+velaro+d&hl=it&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgbj7strLl_gncUyC0kbf1mLC9TiAEaPfKYBVVHWzFyG0bnRUX-AfxB4xTTsu6s8okO7EM_rnsLmfhdje40izWpdJC9Aq_gHM8K9dnZC_J-sPGMRV-05D7kwlKEbH4OmimZbTnx&sig=AHIEtbSDrVg9B_rQVT4lxtlKp-nANZMYZQ
















:banana: 2011


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

A lot of blind seats - human stupidity is endless...


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

the best thing about the prev versions was the seating behind the driver

now they took that away


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## kyah117 (Jan 24, 2010)

Well, I prefer the look of the ICE 3. 
The lights are too high... In fact, when I see those pictures, I think about a failed Shinkansen (only for the external design) uke:


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## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

> The lights are too high...


Had to be relocated due to a different clamshell design for the coupler cover/fairing:

http://paulbigland.fotopic.net/p64539498.html

*Above taken from this (more pictures at the factory):
http://paulbigland.fotopic.net/c1842814.html


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## G5man (Jul 28, 2008)

It doesn't have the appeal of an ICE 3 or the rest of the Velaro fleet. I liked the round porthole on the door. The square just doesn't do me any good. Plus, I liked it when the windows would look like a continuous glass instead of noticing the interior interruptions between windows panes.


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## Peloso (May 17, 2006)

Looks good. Not worse than the previous version. Appears to be cleaner.


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## bobke90 (Mar 7, 2010)

ICE 3 or ICE4, they look almost the same and they look well. They are one of the most beautiful trains, there are.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

G5man said:


> It doesn't have the appeal of an ICE 3 or the rest of the Velaro fleet. I liked the round porthole on the door. The square just doesn't do me any good. Plus, I liked it when the windows would look like a continuous glass instead of noticing the interior interruptions between windows panes.


The ICE3 looks better than the Velaro, true, but design elements like continuous gals bands are expensive.


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## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

Though some are decrying the elimination of the forward view for passengers, Siemens has a good reason for deleting this feature- it allows better crash standards and additional fireproofing- to allow running through the Channel Tunnel. Also, it permits additional seating (+40 in this case), so cost performance is better.


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## Railfan (Nov 15, 2006)

! The new train has a stunning design!


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## Hubert Pollak (Dec 4, 2007)

How much units DB ordered? Do you think thath all of them would be used on London - Bruxelles - Cologne - Frankfurt route?


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

15


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## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

The newspapers wrote that DB plans to run these in half of Europe (I can't remember all countries, but even Spain was mentioned) which seemed to me rather optimistic with only 15 units.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

thun said:


> The newspapers wrote that DB plans to run these in half of Europe (I can't remember all countries, but even Spain was mentioned) which seemed to me rather optimistic with only 15 units.


They already have quite a few multi system ICE's. And they already run them to the Netherlands, Belgium and France. I asume these units will be used to reinforce the pool used for these services. I wouldn't mind seeing more ICE services on Brussel - Köln.
A service to the South of France and even Barcelona might make sense too. But don't forget that for a daily train in both directions on that route you'd only need two trainsets.


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## Hubert Pollak (Dec 4, 2007)

K_ said:


> They already have quite a few multi system ICE's. And they already run them to the Netherlands, Belgium and France. I asume these units will be used to reinforce the pool used for these services. I wouldn't mind seeing more ICE services on Brussel - Köln.
> A service to the South of France and even Barcelona might make sense too. But don't forget that for a daily train in both directions on that route you'd only need two trainsets.


Today I wrote information in polish rail internet http://inforail.pl/text.php?from=main&id=32562 thath DB plans connection from Frankfurt (maybe also from Cologne?) with this trains to Marsellie (so also to Lyon) using new high-speed line in France (Rhin - Rohne). It's good idea specially for summer connection also to Nicea and Barcelona. 

So I think with only 15 trains DB would serve only north (London) and south (Mediterranean coast).


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## Railfan (Nov 15, 2006)




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## manrush (May 8, 2008)

>


What a sleek and beautiful train. The new Velaro's front bit looks quite similar to the KTX II. I also happen to like the neatness of the livery. It accentuates the train very well.


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## bobke90 (Mar 7, 2010)

Only eight cars, too short I think.


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

bobke90 said:


> Only eight cars, too short I think.


maybe you should look up other high speed trains, because most of them in europe are designed to be ~200 m long or ~ 400 when coupled :hm:


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

The new Technical Specifications for Interoperability define european standards and specifications for railways. Between them the maximum standard length, 400 m. This can be obtained by a single 400 m trainset, two 200 m ones, three of 133 m each, or any else combination. But the most used standard is 200 m: RailJet, Velaro, TGV, ETR 600, ...


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## bobke90 (Mar 7, 2010)

Yes, I know dat 200m is the standard. But maybe it is interestesting to invest in longer trainsets. For example trains of 10 or 12 cars. 
I think that transport by train, become very important now and in future.


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

bobke90 said:


> Yes, I know dat 200m is the standard. But maybe it is interestesting to invest in longer trainsets. For example trains of 10 or 12 cars.
> I think that transport by train, become very important now and in future.


you have to balance the required capacity and the timetable

it is much easier with standardized trains that can be coupled in a few seconds


a fleet made up of EMUs of different lenghts would be extremely inefficient in that regard


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## joseph1951 (Aug 19, 2007)

manrush said:


> What a sleek and beautiful train. The new Velaro's front bit looks quite similar to the KTX II. I also happen to like the neatness of the livery. It accentuates the train very well.


I think the Velaro looks better thant the KTXII. The latter looks like a bad and cheap imitation of the TGV.


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## foxmulder (Dec 1, 2007)

I think it looks great. muscular..


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## NiGhtPiSH (May 14, 2009)

Hey do you know what's the access to the factory in Krefeld? There's a chance I'll be traveling to Germany in June and I'd like to photograph the manufacturing of the Velaros.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

bobke90 said:


> Only eight cars, too short I think.


8 cars is just right. You can couple two of them and form 16 car sets if you need more capacity. With 10 or 12 car sets you don't have this flexibility. But it's not so much the number of cars ( a tgv has 10 "cars" but is more or less the same length) but the train length that counts. 200m is ideal. Two coupled fit within the European maximum.

I can see the DB running more Brussel - Köln trains, and coupling them with a train from Amsterdam for the run to Frankfurt, as they already do on some services.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

bobke90 said:


> Yes, I know dat 200m is the standard. But maybe it is interestesting to invest in longer trainsets. For example trains of 10 or 12 cars.
> I think that transport by train, become very important now and in future.


You could buy 200m and 100m trainsets, as the SBB is doing now. This way you can form trains of 200m, 300m and 400m, depending on need. However you can't really fit a restaurant in a four car set. So an eight car set is a very useful size. And if you need more you just couple two sets.


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

loco designer said:


> The colour scheme can be changed to the new E320 being purschased by eurotunnel.


Correction, those have been ordered by Eurostar. Eurotunnel is just the company responsible for the tunnel operations and car/truck transport system. Eurotunnel sell their capacity in €2,500 slots to Eurostar, plus €9,60 transit fee per passenger.

And just to bully the Frogs...


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

hans280 said:


> Does it have to be Chinese? Alstom has missed out on export markets in a lot of countries by insisting on working articulated. Personally, I agree with their main argument: it IS much safer. The twin problems, as far as I understand, are (1) un-articulated trains can load more passengers, and (2) some very winded old tracks cannot accomodate the "stiff" articulated trains. To the French this is no problem: you solve (1) by buying more trains, and you solve (2) by laying new tracks. Two countries seem to agree, namely Japan and Spain. The rest....? [QUOTE/]
> 
> Articulated trains have their wheel pivots in the extremes of the cars and only one set of each linking two cars ... so can acomodate about 20/30% more seats in the same train lenght and more easily adapt the carbody width to 2+3 (or even 3+3) seating.
> 
> ...


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

sotavento said:


> That is incorrect:


OK, so Siemens are incorrect, thanks for informing us Sotavento. I'll send a memo to Siemens recommending they sack their publicist for putting out such erroneous information.

Page 9 http://www.transportation.siemens.c...rnet/ts_tr/velaro_a19100-v800-b796-x-7600.pdf


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## loco designer (Oct 14, 2010)

NiGhtPiSH said:


> Hey do you know what's the access to the factory in Krefeld? There's a chance I'll be traveling to Germany in June and I'd like to photograph the manufacturing of the Velaros.


If you found a way, could you let me know who to contact?


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