# Guess Where Over Half The World's New Malls Are Being Built



## VECTROTALENZIS (Jul 10, 2010)

city_thing said:


> No surprise really. China is home to a 6th of the world's population after all.


China's population is 19.18% of the world population. Almost a fifth in other words.


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## ParadiseLost (Feb 1, 2011)

London has a pretty impressive place on that list, olympics?


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

ParadiseLost said:


> London has a pretty impressive place on that list, olympics?


Plus the British obsession with malls rather than traditional shopping streets these days. Look at developments like Bluewater on the outskirts of London. Then there are all of the other out-of-town malls such as Meadowhall in Sheffield or the Trafford Centre in Manchester though these are older but they do still highlight the penchant for malls in the UK. 

There are also inner city malls too going up like Cabots Circus in Bristol and Westfield London that have been built fairly recently. I do wonder how much of this mall culture is of a detriment to the traditional high street shopping, though.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

bayviews said:


> many of the *younger American* forumers here seem to perceive malls, at least suburban malls, as being out of style, etc.


They don't have in general two things that heavily influences shopping habits:

(a) disposable income

(b) an own household and children to take care of


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Hed_Kandi said:


> Shopping malls are not an indicator of successful urban planning, but rather quite the opposite.
> 
> The world's greatest shopping is not to be found in a gargantuan suburban mall, rather it is found within the heart of a city with vitality and excitement in all its glory.
> 
> Fifth avenue, Bond street, Avenue Montaigne, Ginza, etc...


It depends on what you are shopping, and of what quality...

While many rich people flock to these places you mentioned, many more middle class families flock to Outlet malls in Orlando, New Jersey, Birmingham, Beuvais and other places to buy discounted collection clothing and look for knock-down prices.


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## Hed_Kandi (Jan 23, 2006)

Suburbanist said:


> They don't have in general two things that heavily influences shopping habits:
> 
> (a) disposable income
> 
> (b) an own household and children to take care of



Disposable income? If anyone has disposable income it is young adults. I used to drop $350 dollars on a pair of jeans in my early 20's. Now that I am older, I wouldn't dare spend that as I now have a mortgage, car payments, RRSP's, etc, etc


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ My bet is that the majority of SSC forumers are still on undergraduate courses.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

ParadiseLost said:


> London has a pretty impressive place on that list, olympics?


It is because of the opening of Westfield Stratford City mall in September 2011.


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## mhays (Sep 12, 2002)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ My bet is that the majority of SSC forumers are still on undergraduate courses.


I'm in my 40s, own my home, and work for a contractor that builds retail centers and stores (as well as apartments, offices, labs, schools, hotels, etc.), where my job includes paying attention to trends for all of that. That's my bias.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Svartmetall said:


> Plus the British obsession with malls rather than traditional shopping streets these days. Look at developments like Bluewater on the outskirts of London. Then there are all of the other out-of-town malls such as Meadowhall in Sheffield or the Trafford Centre in Manchester though these are older but they do still highlight the penchant for malls in the UK.
> 
> There are also inner city malls too going up like Cabots Circus in Bristol and Westfield London that have been built fairly recently. I do wonder how much of this mall culture is of a detriment to the traditional high street shopping, though.


I can tell you, with the inflation of super malls that London is facing, it soon will be a deadly competition between shopping streets and malls. You'll see dead bodies soon. Generally, big central shopping streets can possibly compete, small ones less so, unless they specialize on some niche. We have a bit the same problem in Vienna. Vienna is nowadays one of the most mall overserved cities in Europe. Our Oxford street equivalent can compete well but small district shopping streets certainly feel the heat. On the other side, several of the pretty recent and small to mid sized malls do so as well. And still, many more projects are still in the pipeline, luckily they almost all focus on rail hubs nowadays and many come with lots of residential development around them as well.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

I thought some of the ex-communist countries are obsessed with building shopping malls.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Slartibartfas said:


> I can tell you, with the inflation of super malls that London is facing, it soon will be a deadly competition between shopping streets and malls. You'll see dead bodies soon. Generally, big central shopping streets can possibly compete, small ones less so, unless they specialize on some niche. We have a bit the same problem in Vienna. Vienna is nowadays one of the most mall overserved cities in Europe. Our Oxford street equivalent can compete well but small district shopping streets certainly feel the heat. On the other side, several of the pretty recent and small to mid sized malls do so as well. And still, many more projects are still in the pipeline, luckily they almost all focus on rail hubs nowadays and many come with lots of residential development around them as well.


But oversupply is good, it lowers rent and allows for healthy competition between retail locations.

It's good to have different real estate options competing for the same markets. The more competition, the better.

As you told, many malls in Europe are located close to rail stations in the outskirts or new subway lines, so even the traffic argument for lack of transportation is not valid.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Suburbanist said:


> But oversupply is good, it lowers rent and allows for healthy competition between retail locations.
> 
> It's good to have different real estate options competing for the same markets. The more competition, the better.
> 
> As you told, many malls in Europe are located close to rail stations in the outskirts or new subway lines, so even the traffic argument for lack of transportation is not valid.


Oversupply can also lead to cut-throat competition that leads to bad business practices such as sourcing the cheapest possible goods often manufacturing abroad rather than in the home country which causes a loss of jobs blahblahblah etc. It also leads to cut throat hiring and firing policies for store workers and wage deflation for store workers too to help stores control costs. 

Sorry, but there is a point where oversupply is a bad thing most definitely.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Suburbanist said:


> But oversupply is good, it lowers rent and allows for healthy competition between retail locations.


Slight oversupply might do so, large oversupply with more projects in the pipeline merely lead to a big bubble bursting. Welcome Spain. That is noting else than massive waste of resources which boils down to wasting our wealth for nothing, making us poorer, not richer. 

The more the better, no limits, is an almost naive view and completely unfounded. 



> As you told, many malls in Europe are located close to rail stations in the outskirts or new subway lines, so even the traffic argument for lack of transportation is not valid.


Actually the largest new one just outside of Vienna is next to an S-Bahn, but built in a way that makes that S-Bahn totally meaningless. Great design I guess. No wonder they were in a hurry to build it, as it was outlawed right afterwards that shopping malls exploit municipal borders so shamelessly, betting on fat subsidies from small communities just outside of Vienna. Profiting massively from Viennese infrastructure while contributing nothing to it by evading paying tax in Vienna where they'll get quite a big share of customers from.

Anway, pretty much all other projects and they are all within city limits are of the "good" sort. While still malls, they'll be designed to benefit from great connectivity rather than dirt cheap location in the middle of nowhere. I'm not a fan of malls, as they lack the quality of shopping streets which I prefer if I have the choice. But of course, if a mall is much closer or much better accessible by transit, this would be an argument for me to go there.


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## Sarcasticity (May 21, 2005)

Malls are everywhere in the Philippines, I guess I can also safely say the SEA region. It's definitely a good/bad situation. It not only kills small businesses, but our cities have really poor street life due to malls (people prefer to stay in the cool conditions of the mall than walk around in the humidity). Plus our malls literally house EVERYTHING


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ I think ultimately the costumers should decide where they want to shop in this malls vs. street shopping debate. Of course costumers come in many different sizes, shapes, preferences etc. So some balance will be eventually found by the market itself, alone, without interference.

What I disagree is with this argument that streets are bad because people go to malls. Usually, if preferences are heavily skewed that way, is that because streets were bad first place and then malls just dully nail the coffin.

Take into consideration, though, that weather plays a huge role on countries like Philippines. One thing is to go stroll a street in a Viennese weather. Other is to go for a walk in 32 oC with 90% humidity like in Manila or Houston.


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## jbkayaker12 (Nov 8, 2004)

Sarcasticity said:


> Malls are everywhere in the Philippines, I guess I can also safely say the SEA region. It's definitely a good/bad situation. It not only kills small businesses, but our cities have really poor street life due to malls (people prefer to stay in the cool conditions of the mall than walk around in the humidity). Plus our malls literally house EVERYTHING


Are you insane? Philippine streets are full of people. Too much if you ask me and mind you I meant that NOT in a good way.:lol:


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## Skyprince (May 2, 2006)

Many people think that Dubai and Southeast Asia are only full of malls, while street shopping is unpopular.

But in fact, I found Dubai and Southeast Asian cities have quite vibrant outdoor street shopping lifestyle too . 

It's not surprising China tops the mall construction list, because its far from being a saturated market with fast-growing GDP


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

While the Fall of big box stores is happening all across the US , the trend of shopping on Main Street seems to on the rebound. Many towns near me used to be ghost towns due to the nearby Mega Malls now the opposite is true. Main Street is once again alive and booming...


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

Nexis said:


> While the Fall of big box stores is happening all across the US , the trend of shopping on Main Street seems to on the rebound. Many towns near me used to be ghost towns due to the nearby Mega Malls now the opposite is true. Main Street is once again alive and booming...


I think the trend of online shopping is still firmly in control, although I definitely agree about mall vs main street.  Still there are certain malls in certain areas that are still very popular...I know of a few that are almost always busy. There are others that are dying a slow painful death, and there is almost zero new mall construction.


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

Slartibartfas said:


> I somehow oppose the idea that the country that is the origin of a river should have the right to completely deplete it before it crosses into other nations. Obviously you don't.


Are you feared that we dry the Donau? :lol:


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Slartibartfas said:


> Uhm, yes. Mexicans could use some of the resources then. I somehow oppose the idea that the country that is the origin of a river should have the right to completely deplete it before it crosses into other nations. Obviously you don't.


In the specific case, there are old treaties between two countries that govern who can take what. There is also a compact specifying which states get what from the Colorado, obligations of upstream US states etc.



> Which would cause two things. Overuse the Missouri basin together with the other areas this basin has to serve and on the other side making urban areas like Las Vegas even more wasteful inefficient places (because of the exploding costs to support them)


Water diversion are capital intensive but otherwise extremely low maintenance projects. As far as water keeping flowing in the Mississippi at New Orleans (= waste) into the Gulf, there is potential for additional diversion.

I don't see where is this "exploding costs to support" comes from. I'd agree there would be a problem is groundwater were intensively used, but that is not the case and, anyway, the low hanging fruits on the US West is to reduce inefficient agriculture, which uses more than 70% of all fresh water consumption in the region.



> PS: We are getting way off topic.


It is off-topic but highly related, because the principle you support ("don't build infrastructure and restrict growth of cities in inhospitable places even if the place is part of a sparsely populated and rich country") is the same that, on a regional/local scale, is used by those who are against shopping malls, even if they are connected to transit, or if developers offer to build transit connections, alleging that people should not be encouraged to shop outside of traditional commercial areas so not to "kill" their "vitality". Which is a double wrong making it worse.

An interesting example: New Jersey has several outlets and gigantic malls catering for NY Metro population. Some of them are easily accessible by transit. Yet, routinely you'll read some NYC (the city itself) whining that New Jersey is a "leech" that "preys" upon the NYC tax base by offering lower taxes and facilities for these massive retail centers to open shop there whereas the majority of their clientele are people based in NYC city itself.

Meanwhile, being in the same state, this positive development of malls and retail centers hasn't caught up for real in Long Island, where they would be an awesome addition (there are even rail line to put them at).


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Chrissib said:


> Are you feared that we dry the Donau? :lol:


I expect that any day...


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Suburbanist said:


> It is off-topic but highly related, because the principle you support ("don't build infrastructure and restrict growth of cities in inhospitable places even if the place is part of a sparsely populated and rich country") is the same that, on a regional/local scale, is used by those who are against shopping malls, even if they are connected to transit, or if developers offer to build transit connections, alleging that people should not be encouraged to shop outside of traditional commercial areas so not to "kill" their "vitality". Which is a double wrong making it worse.


Thats quite a jump from one thing to another. I don't quite see that relation. If shopping malls should more efficiently cater better quality of life, I might be convinced to support them. Which is closer to my position on inefficient water and energy wasting desert metropolitan regions. 



> An interesting example: New Jersey has several outlets and gigantic malls catering for NY Metro population. Some of them are easily accessible by transit. Yet, routinely you'll read some NYC (the city itself) whining that New Jersey is a "leech" that "preys" upon the NYC tax base by offering lower taxes and facilities for these massive retail centers to open shop there whereas the majority of their clientele are people based in NYC city itself.


And NYC is right. NJ benefits largely from infrastructure and population where it has no expenses but only benefits. While NYC is left with expenses but less benefits. That is also why NYC retiliates by having bridge tolls for anyone entering NYC, which hits especially commuters from NJ. Only fair in my eyes.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Slartibartfas said:


> And NYC is right. NJ benefits largely from infrastructure and population where it has no expenses but only benefits. While NYC is left with expenses but less benefits. That is also why NYC retiliates by having bridge tolls for anyone entering NYC, which hits especially commuters from NJ. Only fair in my eyes.


But that happens in many places in the World. Sub-national administrative boundaries within a major urban area offers opportunities for "skimming" practices. 

I'll give you one example: for a period, Milan(o), Italy, had embarked in some anti-shopping mall crusade because of lobbying of local evil merchants. And they got away for a while, until small municipalities started allowing massive retail centers being built, sometimes a dozen meters behind the municipal limits of Milano. Italy has many other such examples, and so does Belgium - both countries have highly fragmented local government entities. Some people heavily criticized the opening of some of these facilities because, according to them, Milano stays with traffic, reduced IVA collections, whereas the other city don't even deal with extra traffic as sometimes these developments are not even connected with their local road network properly as they are right at the local border.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Suburbanist said:


> But that happens in many places in the World. Sub-national administrative boundaries within a major urban area offers opportunities for "skimming" practices.


Of course it happens in many places. That doesn't make it any better. Its a manifestation of bad management where administration boundaries lead to developments which are inefficient and wasteful when seen in the larger picture and which exist only due to the existence of administration borders. Its not like it is impossible to prevent those developments from happening, well administrated areas actually manage to do so.


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