# ITALY | High Speed Rail



## hkskyline

*Italy Obtains Financing for Naples - Milan - Turin HSR*

*Italy's ISPA In EUR2.0B Loan To Fund High-Speed Railway *
6 May 2005

ROME (Dow Jones)--Italian state agency Infrastrutture SpA, which finances the country's high-speed train project, said Friday it had mandated a group of banks to arrange a EUR2.0 billion loan. 

The loan will have a two-year maturity with an option to extend it an extra year, Infrastrutture, or ISPA, said in a statement. It's part of a EUR25 billion high-speed railway debt plan which includes loans and bonds. 

The EUR2.0 billion loan will be used to fund the high-speed railway section connecting Naples in the south of Italy to Milan and Turin in the north. 

ISPA was created by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's government in 2002 to finance big infrastructure projects. With the latest loan announced Friday, some EUR10 billion has been raised by Infrastrutture to finance Italy's high speed railway. 

Joint bookrunners for the loan are Societe Generale (13080.FR) and Royal Bank of Scotland Group (RBS.LN), ISPA said.


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## Napo

New stations for high speed trains in Italy (they will be all completed in the next few years):

*Napoli-Afragola station*




































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*Torino-PortaSusa*(with a skyscraper of 100 m) 



































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*Roma-Tiburtina*



































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*Firenze-Belfiore*



































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*The italian High Speed train is the Etr-500 (built in Italy by AnsaldoBreda, maximum speed 300 km/h, design by Pininfarina)*


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## eusebius

Looking great though the Florence station looks over the top. The diamond look is too obvious.


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## lpioe

Napoli-Afragola station is simply awesome 

The others aren't bad either.


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## Cristovão471

very Stylish


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## teddybear

I like the first one... impressively creative!
Well, I like Italians too...


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## SOLOMON

beautiful....


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## spongeg

cool


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## Bitxofo

Nice stations!
kay:


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## GENIUS LOCI

Some pics of Calatrava's HS station in Reggio Emilia


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## mrmoopt

I thought that the ETRs are now an Alstom product?


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## Arichis

cal_t said:


> I thought that the ETRs are now an Alstom product?


Depends which ETR. The ETR 500 (which is the principle high speed train in Italy) is built by the TREVI Consortium (www. consorziotrevi.it) which is composed of AnsaldoBreda S.p.A., Firema Trasporti S.p.A., Alstom Ferroviaria S.p.A. (ex-FIAT Ferroviaria) and Bombardier Transportation S.p.A.

The Pendolino series (ETR 460, 470 & 480) is now built by Alstom Ferroviaria, inheriting it from FIAT Ferroviaria.


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## Il_Milanese

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Some pics of Calatrava's HS station in Reggio Emilia


Genius, don't tell me that the HST will stop in Reggio Emilia as well! Will it have more than the actual Eurostar stops?


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## groentje

Impressive pictures.


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## aquablue

Nice -- however, what happens to the central station in Rome??? You have to travel to the Tiburtina station for HSR now, you can't get it at Termine?


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## Epi

^^Did they change the Eurostar Italia trains in Rome? Last time I was there (3 years ago) it stopped at Roma Termini.



The new stations look amazing espeically the first one!


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## GENIUS LOCI

Il_Milanese said:


> Genius, don't tell me that the HST will stop in Reggio Emilia as well! Will it have more than the actual Eurostar stops?


Reggio Emilia will be a secondarian HS station; not every trains will stop at RE


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## GENIUS LOCI

aquablue said:


> Nice -- however, what happens to the central station in Rome??? You have to travel to the Tiburtina station for HSR now, you can't get it at Termine?


The trains wich have as terminus Roma will stop first at Tiburtina and then at Termini, while the trains which haven't as terminus Rome (e.g. Milano-Napoli trains) just will stop at Tiburtina 

Same for Naples: Afragola and Napoli Centrale with Naples as final destination, just Afragola the ones passing by
Same for Turin: Porta Susa and Porta Nuova terminus, just Porta Susa passing by
Same for Milan: Milano Centrale as terminus, but in this case Milan got three 'gate' HS stations from three different directions (Rho-Fiera for Turin direction, Pioltello for Venice direction and Rogoredo for Bologna direction)
Unfortunately these three stations won't have anything innovative or interesting in their architecture, unlike the other ones shown in this thread; they're building 'em with 'ordinarian' materials and shapes (even a bit crap)
And I'm still wondering why :bash:


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## Napo

cal_t said:


> I thought that the ETRs are now an Alstom product?


The ETR 500, the principle high speed train in Italy, is now an AnsaldoBreda product  

link: http://www.ansaldobreda.it/ita/files/prodotti.asp?id_prodotto=3


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## ricu__

Italian TAV

TAV (treno ad alta velocità) is a special purpose owned by RFI for planning and construction of high-speed rail lines along italy's most important and saturated transport routes. The porpose of TAV construction is to aid travel along Italy's most saturated and used rail lines and to add tracks to these lines, namely the Milano-Napoli (Milan-Naples) and Torino-Milano-Venezia corridors. One of the focuses of the project is to turn the rail network of Italy into a modern and high -teach system of passneger. A secondary purpose is to indroduce high-speed rail to the country and its hight-priority corridors. An important consideration of the lines is to improve travel times, train frequency, and safety. When demand on regular linesis lessened with the opening of dedicated high-speed lines, those regular lines will be used primarily for low-speed regional and city rail service. With these ideas realised, the italian train network can be integratedwith other european rail networks.
In Italy, the dominant method of transport is the use of automobiles and the motorway network. There is a very strong divide of how people and goods are transported, the majority being carried using cars and trucks. In Italy There are metro system in Rome, Milan, Naples, Torino, Genova and Catania and tram systems in city like Milano, Naples, Roma, Torino, Florence, Palerm, Bergamo and Sassari. In other 20 city there are great trolley bus systems. A major reason to develop a highly developed and systematic rail network in the country is to encourage a sense of competitiveness between different modes of transport and to improve an under-utilised and aging rail infrastructure. 

































work in progress (Rome)













































































The messina's bridge (will link Sicily and south Italy)

New railway stations:
Florence

































Napoli

























Roma

































Torino

















Milano

















www.trenitalia.it
http://www.en.tav.it/
http://www.strettodimessina.it/


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## ricu__

the new Reggio Emilia TAV station


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## Federicoft

Strait of Messina bridge thank God was finally discarded.


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## Guest

Spettacolare!!


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## GENIUS LOCI

federicoft said:


> Strait of Messina bridge thank God was finally discarded.


Finally? 
I'm not sure


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## sdf11

Italy need it a lot. . . . .
The rail station of the richest city in Italy it's really poor. . .


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## GENIUS LOCI

Poor?

I don't understand what you mean with poor

If you mean that it looks a bit oldand too dirty, you're right; but now they're completely restructuring it

If you mean they have to tear down (or partly tear down) the station to add a new futuristic structure it would sound to me as a vandalic act...


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## Enzo911

I love this one


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## elfabyanos

sdf11 said:


> Italy need it a lot. . . . .
> The rail station of the richest city in Italy it's really poor. . .


All I remember about that station is acres of gorgeous stone and being really bloody clean. And then you exit onto that lovely square with a fountain. Brilliant.


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## TohrAlkimista

Which TAV-Station is projected by Zaha Hadid? the one in Napoli?


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## TohrAlkimista

elfabyanos said:


> All I remember about that station is acres of gorgeous stone and being really bloody clean. And then you exit onto that lovely square with a fountain. Brilliant.


do you mean Milano Centrale?


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## Fanatic74

mah io avrei aspettato ancora qualche anno prima di inziare:bash: 
ma perchè siamo ridotti cosi male??

TohrAlkimista,a parte Chuck Norris e Mc Giver,condivido perfettamente quello che è riportato nella tua firma,parole sante :lol:


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## -{ Rick }-

TohrAlkimista said:


> Which TAV-Station is projected by Zaha Hadid? the one in Napoli?


Yep :cheers:


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## TohrAlkimista

Rick ma perchè non apriamo un 3d nel foro Italiano con lo stato delle costruzioni delle nuove stazioni, che sono fighissime? 

@Fanatic: eh lo so grazie...specialmente il binomio culturale Eva Henger-Einstein è azzeccato...


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## Napo

*The italian High Speed train: ETR 500*










*The interiors*









*The driver's cab *









*ETR 500 trains*


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## Geokioy

Bravo Italia!!! Forza!!!...and some questions...
1) What is the maximum speed of ETR 500?
2) This bridge in the straight of Messina is going to be build or not? and if yes when?
Grazie...for the info


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## Coccodrillo

1) Commercial service 300 km/h, during a testing run it reached 352 km/h.

2) Who knows?


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## GENIUS LOCI

Testing Etr 600



robyk said:


>


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## Rhoy

ricu__ said:


>


Is that Nspoli Afragola??? really?


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## Paulo2004

Nice future stations.


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## joseph1951

*Italian TAV*

The maximum operating speed for the new Italian HSL is 300km/h. 

In the near future the train operating max speed will be 250km/h on Milano-Bologna-Florence-Rome-Naples and on the Turin Milan lines.

The ETR500 max operating speed is 300Km/h. In commercial operations the maximum speed will be 250km/h for the time being. On a test run it has achieved +350 km/h.

The ETR500 suffered a great deal of theething troubles, it is also heavier and more expensive than TGV, and has far less power/weight ratio than the French train. 

At the moment, on the Milan-Florence line the commercial speed achieved by ETR500 is only about 115 km/h. Hardly a high speed.

On the other high speed routes the average commercial speeds are:
Milan Rome 128.2 km/h.
Rome Naples 156.92 km/h
Torino-Milan -105.51 km/h

In the past, when the Florence-Rome high speed line was only partially completed, the commercial speed was higher.

The current commercial speed between Turin and Milan is almost equal to that achieved in 1950 with light diesel railcairs. 

In 1990 there were tiliting trains which were much faster.

The Italians have spent a huge amount of money to buidl three miserable high speed lines and, so far, the results have been quite disappointing. 

As a matter of fact, in Italy, in the past 15 years, the rail service has greatly deteriorated.


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## TohrAlkimista

If I'm not wrong, a 3d about TAV is already existing somewhere in this section.


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## joseph1951

*Italian TAV*

I do not know of a 3rd about this thread. Incidentally what do you mean about 3rd? 3rd page?


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## Wilhem275

joseph1951 said:


> The Italians have spent a huge amount of money to buidl three miserable high speed lines and, so far, the results have been quite disappointing. As a matter of fact, in Italy, in the past 15 years, the rail service has greatly deteriorated.



Actually, no HSLs have been completed, so the results are still to come!


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## Augusto

In the 90' a new service had been lauched between Lyon (France) and Milano through the Alps mountains. But the Italian Pendolino ETR 460 were so unreliable that they were taking more time than before. A few years later those trains have been withdrawaled. 
What was wrong with them? They were quite good looking and probably the only trains in France with the spanish Talgo were cheap and good espresso was available..


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## joseph1951

The pendolinos (ETR480) used in France were subjected to maintenance problems, also they were boycotted by SNCF which prefers TGVs.


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## worldwide70rm

Here some pix of the new Pendolino (ETR 600) running between Tiburtina Station and Scalo San Lorenzo in Rome


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## worldwide70rm

Another one


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## worldwide70rm

still another one


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## tneruals

joseph1951 said:


> The maximum speed for the new Italian HSL is 300km/h. In the near future the train operating max speed will be 250km/h on Milano-Bologna-Florence-Rome-Naples and on the Turin Milan lines.
> The ETR500 max operating speed is 300Km/h. In commercial operations the maximum speed will be 250km/h for the time being. On a test runa it has achieved +350 km/h.
> 
> The ETR500 suffered a great deal of theething troubles, it is also heavier and more expensive than TGV and has far less power that the Frenche train.
> 
> At the moment, on the Milan Florence line the commercial speed achieved by ETR500 is only about 115 km/h. Hardly a high speed.
> 
> On the other high speed routes the average commercial speeds are:
> Milan Rome 128.2 km/h.
> Rome Naples 156.92 km/h
> Torino-Milan -105.51
> In the past, when the Florence Rome high speed line was only partially completed the commercial speed was higher.
> The current commercial speed between Turin and Milan is almost equal to that achieve in 1950 with light diesel railcairs. In 1990 there were tiliting trains which were much faster.
> The Italians have spent a huge amount of money to buidl three miserable high speed lines and, so far, the results have been quite disappointing. As a matter of fact, in Italy, in the past 15 years, the rail service has greatly deteriorated.


The ETR 500 top speed between Rome and Naples and between Turin and Novara (high-speed line to be completed to Milan) is 300 km/h and not 250 km/h as you mentioned. If average speeds are not very high it is because urban "penetrations" into Naples, Milan and Rome have yet to be completed. Despite the numerous construction delays, the Rome-Naples high speed line was the first in Europe to successfully implement the use of the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) of second level whereas elsewhere implementation has proven to be very difficult.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Milano-Bologna HS line. They finished the bridge on Po river

Here some pics



TohrAlkimista said:


> http://www.ferrovie.it/ferrovie.vis/timdettvp.php?id=2413


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## Federicoft

I'm pretty sure there was another thread on the Italian TAV.

Is it possible to merge them?

edit: probably there isn't any, so let's remember what all this is about. 




The final network will be:
blue: 300+ km/h
yellow: 250 km/h


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## Booze

Roma - Firenze is 300 km/h yet?


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## Coccodrillo

Roma-Firenze is designed for 300 km/h on some stretches, but being electrified with 3 kV DC, speed limit is now about 250 km/h.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Booze said:


> Roma - Firenze is 300 km/h yet?


As Coccodrillo said 250 km/h, but it is the first HS track in Italy built in '70s


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## Coccodrillo

The Direttissima Rome-Flroence line is the first HSL in Europe, built a few a few years before the Paris-Lyon, even if it is a mixed traffic line, goods and passenegrs.

However, this line is in fact used only by HS trains, InterCity, and fast local trains, and does not have a lot of freight trains.


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## Bitxofo

Are there high speed trains leaving from Venice to Rome? How long do they take?
:?
Grazie!


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## elfabyanos

GENIUS LOCI said:


> As Coccodrillo said 250 km/h, but it is the first HS track in Italy built in '70s


I understand that it is being upgraded to 300km/h throughout.


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## elfabyanos

Bitxofo said:


> Are there high speed trains leaving from Venice to Rome? How long do they take?
> :?
> Grazie!


Fastest I found tomorrow
11:54 MESTRE	
16:03 ROMA TE duration 04:09


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## TohrAlkimista

Bitxofo said:


> Are there high speed trains leaving from Venice to Rome? How long do they take?
> :?
> Grazie!


Yes, there are Eurostar services...

but the network is not completed yet,










Blue: in service
Green: u/c
Yellow: to project


so the service between Venice and Rome alternates HS parts with "normal" network speeds.



For example (the shortest travel):









*it lasts 4h and is served with ETR-500:*


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## Coccodrillo

Bitxofo said:


> Are there high speed trains leaving from Venice to Rome? How long do they take?
> :?
> Grazie!


http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/italian-network/italian-network.gif

The HSL between Firenze and Bologna will open in december 2009 (probably). Between Bologna and Venezia/venice speed limit is on some parts 200 km/h.



elfabyanos said:


> I understand that it is being upgraded to 300km/h throughout.


No it isn't.


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## joseph1951

tneruals said:


> Just to add some clarity: the record was reached by a conventional, non-modified ETR500 high-speed train.


On reduced formation and it took about 10 minutes to pass from 199km/h to 355km/h. Fast acceleration?


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## joseph1951

Trainman Dave said:


> Thank you. I dug a little deeper on that web site and found a map which would sugest that there probably less than 25 km which has a speed restriction


1- The maximum project speed of the new Italian HSL's is 300km/h. 
Max commercial speed will be 250 ~300 km/h. 
This was on the TAV and Italferr Web sites. Now disappeared.

Maximum projectual speed does not mean maximum servicing ceiling on commercial operations.

The new Italian HS Lines are built according to the French philosphy, but not according to the most recent French technical specifications. 

On the newly built French HSL the critical oscillatory movements of the catenary start at around -600-620 Km/h. On the "Old French 1500volt d.c. heavy style catenary, the critical ondulatory movements occur at around 449 km/h. 

3 -In the German High speed system the critical ondulatory movements of the catenary occcur at about 591 km/H.

In Italy on the old 3000 volt d.c. systems of the the DD (first HSL Line) the critical ondulatory phenomenon starts at around 280Km/h. 

In the Rome-Florence High Speed line, the 3000v d.c. Italian catenary is light and "elastic", far less performant that the old French 1500 dc. 

In fact, in France, on the old section Paris-Bordeaux two double decker TGVs travel at 220km/h with 4 PANTOGRAPHS raised. 

In The Italian DD Florence -Roma it is not (yet) possibile to travel at speed of 250km/h with 2 pantographs raised. So far this has been done with the testing of the ETR500, but at night, and with huge flashes. 

Running an ETR500 in the Rome-Florence High Speed line energised at 3kw d.c. above 250 km/s, with two pantograph raised there is the real risk of fusing pantograph annd catenary, and pulling down both the overhead cables and the supporting poles.

Indeed, on the DD HSL line the ETR500 can only travel at a top speed of 200km/ with 2 patogrpaphs raised, at least for the time being. 

Above this speed, on he DD the ETR500 must run only with 1 pantograph raised, this with only one loco active, which supply only half of the maximum train power.

The pulling down of the cateranry has happened several times on the historical Milan-Bologna, with Pendolinos, and ETR500, with only one pantograph active and at speed below 200km/h. On the historic Milan-Bologna (with 132 km of line authorised for speed up to 200km/h) the ETR500 can use the two pantographs only up to 100km/h.

The new Italian High Speed lines, are built according to French philosphy, but with Italian technical specifications for HS mixed traffic lines. Therefore the catenary installed on these lines is thinner or less rigid than the new French catenary. On the Italian newly built mixed traffic HSLs the critical oscillatory movements of the cantenary (when the pantograph tends to loose contact with catenary and causes electrical arches), start occurring at about 370Km/h. 

This value, is the critical theoretical value for the begining of critical oscillatory movements of the catenary on the newly Italian HSL. 

The new Italian lines are also built as "High Speed and High Capacy lines", thus "planned" for mixed traffic, and designed with lower gradients (inclines), and with a lower lateral non-compensated accelerations, than those used for pure HSL lines.

Therefore the Italian mixe traffic HS/HC lines are built with constraints and costs that the "pure" HSLs built on other Countries do not have, because the latter were built as HSLs exclusively dedicatd to passenger traffic. 

They new Italian HSL AV/AC are also built for a maximum axial load of 25 tons, compared to the 17-18 maximum axial load of the pure and more cheaper versions of HSLs totally dedicated to the transportation of passengers.

The Italian AV/AC philospophy of having mixed the two concepts has had bad consequences, such as the soaring costs of builiding the infrastructures and of the lowering of the maximum potential speed of these lines.

It would appear quite clear that the labelling of these lines as AV/AC (High Speed /High Capacity) were a mere political expedient. 

Also the usage of this lines for freight trains is quite doubtful, at least for the foreseeable future.

Furthermore, the future underground crossings of Bologna central station , and that of Firenze-Belfiore (60-70 km/h) will have severe speed restrictions , which will greatly reduce the maximum commercial speed on the (Turin) Milan-Rome- Naples HSLs services.

Therefore, after the completion of the entire works I do not think that the journey times of 2h and 30 minutes or even less, from Milan -Central Station to Rome-Termini, can be easily achieved. 

It seems to me a whishful thought, too difficult to turn into reality.

In Italy, given the short distances between medium size cities, the max speed is not the most vital factor. Acceleration is. The Spanish high speed non- tilting Talgo 350 - would offer a far better performace than either the TGV, or the faboulous ICE3.
(The ICE3 Velaro version has reached 403 km/h without any modification to the standard set).

The Talgo "El Pato" (S103?)" is extremely light. It has reached a top speed of 362 km/h. It will be used on the Madrid-Bacelona line for stopping fast trains, whilst the Velaro will be used for long-distance non-stopping trains. 

Practically from 150 km/h to 300 km/h the El Pato acceleration curve, is almost vertical. It takes only 3 km for El Pato to accelerates from 150 to 300 km/h. On revenue services, El Pato has a commercial speed of 330 km/h. 

Obviously, the homologation of a train for a given commercial speed is: max speed +10% 

Even after modifications to the ETR500, by adding extra motors to the two carriages next to the two locos and make it exceeds the 400km/h mrk, it would not be possibile to use such speed in commercial service or, indeed, just for a records. 

The risk of pulling down the catenary and the supporting poles, at speeds around 370 km/h is real. 

Also both ETR500 locomotives of first and second series do not conform with the new EU crash worthiness standards, and the construction line of this type of trains has been closed down. 

It is rumored that the new bogies to be mounted to the ETR500 2nd series will be those built by Alstom.......

On the Turin-Milan High speed section and 8 carraiges ETR500 reches the 300km/h mark after 50 km of slow acceleration. 

The ETR500 accelerates very slowly from 150 to 300km/h. It is the wrong train for high speed, in short distances. 

The same can be said for Milan-Bologna "record". 

*The 355Km/h were achieved after 10 minutes and 44 seconds*. The train started accelerating 20 km, south of Milan (wired under 3kw d.c.), then it enterd the new HSL at 199km/h, then it took 10 minutes and 44 second of painfully slow acceleration to reach 355km/h, which were maintained just for a few seconds.

In my opinion the best usage of the ETR500, in 2 locomotive + 12 carriages formations is for long -non-stop services between Milan -Rome and Milan -Naples, Turin -Rome, Turin-Naples .

*For fast trains, making fequent intermediate calls, better and faster services could be provided with a totally different type of train*.

Let's for a moment look at the newly planned HSL Milan-Brescia-Verona-Vicenza-Padua-Mestre-Venice line.
The first 20 km from Milan towards Brescia are under 3kv d.c, with a top speed of 200km/h and the remaining 55-60km to Brescia will be on 25kV AC. 

The 80-83km from Milan to Brescia will be covered, at best, in 30-35 minutes, at an avergae speed of 160 km/h, or less. 

One can easily see that the ETR500 is not the best train for fast journey on this line.
Incidentally, the new ETR600 Tilting trains have a top sped of 250km/h. It is possible to build active tilting trains which are capable of 320 - 330 Km/h. 

The fact that the newest Italian tilting trains have a max speed of 250km/h and that they will be partially used on the newly built HSLs suggests that for the foreseeable future the maximum commercial speed of the passenger trains running on the new HSLs will be of 250km/h, with some superfast trains capable of short dashes at 300km/h, to make up time, in case of late running.

Given the short distances between many cities served directly by these lines, it seems to me that the forecasted journey times are very decent.

Namely Milan -Bologna 65'. which, perhaps, can be reduced to 60 minutes , for some flag trains.
Bologna-Florence 35 minutes.
Florence-Rome 1h 30', 1h 25'

On some (very few) flag trains the journey tme could be slashed to 1h 25' -1h 20'.
Milan. Central -Rome Termini 3 hours. Perhaps 2h 50' - 2h 50' for a few flag-trains, from Mi.Cle. to Rome -Termini 

A possibile reduction in journey times between Milan Central and Rome-Termini to 2h 30 minutes or, indeed to 2h flat appears to be fairly unfeasable without undertaking major new works on Bologna and Florence areas. 

The Montezemolo AGV ( NTV) will be limited to a top speed of 300km/h.

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Here is the speed diagram of the reduced formation of the ETR500 (2 locos + 8 carriages) used on the Turin-Milan High Speed line.


http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5378/torinonovarasvtv1.png

==========================================================


On The Milan-Bologna HS Line the 355 km/h were achieved with the ETR500 Y or X, which are capable of running under 3kv d.c. / 25Kv a.c., but the 2 ETR500 Y/X are test train of a reduced/modifiable formation of 2 locos + 3 carriages/ 2 locos and 8 carriages. 

It is not clear which formation was used and, I believe, that this detail is quite irrelevant.

Similarly, it is standard practice to test a newly built lines at speeds in excess of the maximum planning speed. 

In other counties record speeds well above 355km/h have been obtained several times, a few decades ago, using either trains in normal revenue services or "doped" trains.

The doping or tweaking of trains, the strengthening of rails and catenaries, is not done merely for national propaganda purposes, but also to push the technology to its technical and conceptual limits and, last but not least, for research and for marketing purposes,.. to sell trains in the global market , etc, etc.


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## gincan

Very interesting read there. I wish there was some way to get hold of the acceleration graphs for all the diffrent high performance trains.


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## plottigat

I'm sure you're a real train lover, and I completely agree with you about ETR500, but...


joseph1951 said:


> Merely for politcal reasons.


Economic reasons, to enter the so-called euro zone Italy had to cut, postpone or slow a lot of projects.
We're proud parents of one of the biggest public debt in the world (don't remeber if it's the 2nd or the 3rd or something like that).

FS had to invest over 6.900 million Euro of public money only for the Milano-Bologna stretch. And the goverment gave all those euros veeeery slowly, they simply didn't have the cash avaibility.

In Italy, if you work for the goverment as a supplier, today you have to wait at least 200 days from the date of your invoice to get your money. You are your country's bank...
Trust me, my company is always waiting. I don't work in engineering, but I'm afraid that they have the same problems.



> Bologna - Florence
> For its size, complexity, financial investments and deployment of technical and human resources, the high speed Bologna-Florence line is unique on a global level: 93% of its *about 78.5 km of total track runs through tunnels within the Apennines*, in a geological context which is among the world’s most difficult, varied and complex (from flyschoid formations to clays, from argillites to loose soils).
> 
> The line numbers a total of 9 tunnels, whose length ranges from a minimum of 600 metres to a maximum of 18.5 km and which are separated by short overground stretches (less than 5 km in total). This almost makes the Bologna-Florence line a single, immense tunnel.
> 
> The line tunnels are accompanied by a 10 km service tunnel, most of which runs parallel to the final stretch of the Vaglia tunnel, and 12 access tunnels, known as “windows”, with a total length of almost 9 km, used to create intermediate tunnel faces in the construction of the longest tunnels and, later, when the line becomes operational, for line maintenance and, in the event of an emergency, as an emergency service and escape route. The link with the existing line is also underground, with 2 tunnels with an overall length of about 9 km between Pianoro and San Ruffillo in Bologna.
> 
> To ensure that the engineering works were carried out efficiently, it was necessary to work on 40 faces contemporaneously: a deployment of men and resources which makes the sites of the Bologna-Florence line one of the most important projects currently in progress worldwide.
> 
> The tunnels in figures:
> 
> 78.5 km total line length
> 73.4 km tunnel length
> 3.4 km manmade tunnels
> 70 km natural tunnels
> - 10.7 km Pianoro Tunnel
> - 3.8 km Saturano Tunnel
> - 9.1 km Monte Bibele Tunnel
> - 10.4 km Raticosa Tunnel
> - 3.5 km Scheggianico Tunnel
> - 15 km Firenzuola Tunnel
> - 0.5 km Borgo Rinzelli Tunnel
> - 0.3 km Morticine Tunnel
> - 6.7 km Vaglia Nord Tunnel (up to Km 71+500)
> - 10 km Vaglia Sud Tunnel
> 
> 8.8 km access windows to line tunnels
> 10.6 km service tunnels to line tunnels
> 9 km link tunnels for connection with the existing line





joseph1951 said:


> One has been completed : the Direttisima Florence-Rome.


From an official source. I apologize if somebody has already posted it (I'm sure that joseph1951 saved all FS site on his hard-disk )


> Florence – Rome
> The direct Rome-Florence line was Europe’s first high speed line.
> 
> Opened in 1978, the line was built with the aim of upgrading the characteristics of the line and the railway service of the time by integration with the existing rail network and the potential to allow for the circulation of traditional freight and passenger trains as well.
> 
> The line – which crosses 3 Regions (Tuscany, Umbria, Lazio), 5 Provinces (Florence, Arezzo, Terni, Viterbo and Rome) and 30 municipalities – is 241 km long: it begins at the Station of Settebagni (16 km outside Rome) and terminates at Bivio Rovezzano (4 km outside Florence’s Campo di Marte station). There are six interconnections with the old Rome-Florence line: Orte, Orvieto, Chiusi, Arezzo, Valdarno and Rovezzano.
> 
> The maximum speed on the line is 250 km/h. On the Valdarno Sud-Figline section experimental simulations have been undertaken with ETR 500 trains which have reached a speed of over 300 km/h.
> 
> From the point of view of the timing and construction of infrastructure, the direct line can be subdivided into three separate phases, adopting homogeneous engineering and performance standards:
> • phase one: Settebagni to Città della Pieve (constructed between 1970 and 1977) covering a total of 122 km, and Figline to Firenze Rovezzano (constructed between 1970 and 1980);
> • phase two: Città della Pieve to Arezzo (constructed between 1976 and 1985);
> • phase three: Arezzo to Figline (constructed between 1985 and 1991).
> 
> Phase two saw an improvement in line standards, made possible in part by the more favourable terrain in this area.
> 
> During phase three, the needs for greater comfort and higher performance led to a further improvement of standards. During this third phase, the problems caused by the insertion into the environment of this new infrastructure were also addressed, adopting mitigation measures for the first time on high speed lines in Italy.
> 
> With the construction of the new high speed lines between Turin, Milan and Naples the need arose to reexamine the characteristics of the direct Rome-Florence line.
> 
> The upgrading of the direct line to conform with the standards of the new high speed lines under construction required works on existing civil engineering structures (tunnels, viaducts etc), electrical traction facilities, signalling and telecommunications.
> 
> This upgrading process was implemented with a targeted plan through both night time interruption of service and the interruption of traffic on some sections and interconnections with the old Rome-Florence line.


Sorry for my English and the little OT, Cheers!


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## Coccodrillo

> - 6.7 km Vaglia Nord Tunnel (up to Km 71+500)
> - 10 km Vaglia Sud Tunnel


This is a single tunnel about 18 km long (and with a maximum rock coverage of about 650 m, but this type of information is still hard to find).

I don't know why it is considered as two tunnels. Even the Sanremo tunnel (13,2 km) on the Genova-Ventimiglia railway is officially composed by three tunnels.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Not exactly HS station, because it will be built underground, but tho overstnding Bologna station will be completely 'rebuilt'

This is the project by Arata Isozaki presented yesterday



















The underground HS tracks










http://www.urbanfile.it/index.asp?ID=3&SID=666


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## GENIUS LOCI

Not exactly HS station, because it will be built underground, but the overstanding Bologna station will be completely 'rebuilt'

This is the project by Arata Isozaki presented yesterday



















The underground HS tracks










http://www.urbanfile.it/index.asp?ID=3&SID=666


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## GENIUS LOCI

Other pics





































http://www.multimedia.ilsole24ore.c.../5d58e2f2-478f-11dd-a870-91396f7e96b7.shtml?1


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## GENIUS LOCI

Other pics





































http://www.multimedia.ilsole24ore.c.../5d58e2f2-478f-11dd-a870-91396f7e96b7.shtml?1


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## X38

Napo, please repalace those not-working links by working links.
Thanks, X38.


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## foxmulder

well, they need these stations badly. good to hear.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Today *NTV* (Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori) spa, which will be a private competitor with national railways (TrenItalia) on HS stretches, presented its own train: Alstom NGA



> Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori
> NTV’s Italian journey has begun: starting in 2011, the passenger service of Italy’s leading high-speed railway operator will get underway.
> 
> With its fleet of 25 new trains, NTV offers trips rich in entertaining experiences and service, as well as the utmost comfort.
> 
> NTV shall be the first operator worldwide to use the new Alstom AGV train, holder of the world railway speed record.
> 
> With the arrival of NTV, a new way of travelling is born, focussed on the quality of the passenger’s time: on the train, in the station and at the destination.





> The fleet NTV
> The company Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori will use only AGV model (Automotrice Grande Vitesse) high-speed Alstom trains equipped with the same traction system as the train that set the world rail speed record of 574.8 km/h on 3 April 2007.
> 
> This extraordinary performance confirms that Alstom’s experience in the field of high-speed operation is unequalled: worldwide, 70% of the trains currently used at speeds of more than 300 km/h were built by Alstom, whose equipment has travelled more than 2.8 billion kilometres and carried 1.6 billion passengers.
> 
> In other words, the AGV train, designed by Alstom and adopted to the world of NTV for the very first time, is nothing less than the state of the art in high-speed railway technology.
> 
> The AGV is based on a brand new concept, being built to travel at 360 km/h, in addition to being the only train to satisfy in full all the latest European specifications of interoperability (STI 2006), as well as European Union and Italian standards on safety and the environment.
> 
> The trains operated by NTV will hold 460 passengers in a total of 11 cars (length of train: 200 metres) and will travel on the Italian high-speed network at 300 km/h. The interiors are styled by Italdesign-Giugiaro.
> 
> There will be 25 trains in the NTV fleet.


http://www.ntvspa.it/en/nuovo-trasporto-viaggiatori/37/3/high-speed-train-agv-italy-description




























video (simulator)

news broadcasted by Italian network


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## Dale

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Poor?
> 
> I don't understand what you mean with poor
> 
> If you mean that it looks a bit oldand too dirty, you're right; but now they're completely restructuring it
> 
> If you mean they have to tear down (or partly tear down) the station to add a new futuristic structure it would sound to me as a vandalic act...


Do you mean they are renovating the station ? What is the timetable ?


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## Dale

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Today *NTV* (Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori) spa, which will be a private competitor with national railways (TrenItalia) on HS stretches, presented its own train: Alstom NGA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ntvspa.it/en/nuovo-trasporto-viaggiatori/37/3/high-speed-train-agv-italy-description
> 
> 
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> video (simulator)
> 
> news broadcasted by Italian network


Ferrari red - I love it!


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## GENIUS LOCI

Dale said:


> Do you mean they are renovating the station ? What is the timetable ?


If I'm not wrong: in 2009, but I'm afraid they're a bit late

Anyway this is official website of Milano Centrale http://www.cantieremilanocentrale.it/client_en/index.php

Recent pics of renovation from this thread on Italian Forum http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=610009


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## city_thing

I'm dying from jealousy at the moment. God damn you Milan, you're beautiful.


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## Dale

GENIUS LOCI -

Splendido! on the renovation.


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## hans280

Dale said:


> GENIUS LOCI -
> 
> Splendido! on the renovation.


Yeah, I agree. The essence of the renovations looks very similar to the ones they just completed at Gare de l'Est here in Paris. With the one difference that Milan's railway architecture looked much grander to start with.


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## Kuvvaci

wonderful stations kay:


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## Perennial Quest

A couple of weeks ago a new livrey for the ETR500 was presented.
Here a couple of pics where you can see the old and the new livrey (the red one):


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## Railfan

Nice train!


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## wronny

*New Inauguration*

Within ten days it will be inaugurated the new High Speed Railway between Milano and Bologna (200 km). 
During the commercial service, the train will reach the maximum speed of 300 km/h.
In the meantime, during a test on the Bologna-Firenze High Speed Railway (78,5 km), that will be inaugurated next year and that runs *for about the 90% in tunnel*, another ETR500 has reached the speed of 340,2 km/h. Not bad for a very antiquated and bankrupt train, as someone supports in these pages.


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## Dinuś

^^ Great news! :banana: Does anyone have an updated map of Italian High-Speed lines?


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## wronny

Here:

http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/cms-file/allegati/_shared/Alta_Velocita.pdf


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## wronny

*Milano Central Station*

And this is the "New" Stazione Centrale di Milano, where will arrive the ETR500


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## Eddard Stark

wronny said:


> Here:
> 
> http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/cms-file/allegati/_shared/Alta_Velocita.pdf


I would like to add that the offer of Trenitalia will change dramatically with the opening of the MIlano-Bologna AV line, basically starting the core of the AV project in Italy.

There will be a train every 30 minutes between Rome and Milan, with some trains reaching Naples and Turin as well. Trains will take only 3:30 minutes in some cases between Rome and Milan. Between Rome and Genoa, Bari, Venezia and Verona there will be faster trains taking 3:59 minutes. This is by no means final, still many pieces are missing from the project (the Novara-Turin line, The Bologna-Firenze line and the last 20km of the Rome-Naples line)

Anyway, Italy (actually a fairly long country) will finally shrink in size!


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## Perennial Quest

ETR500 Frecciarossa @ 300 km/h on the new AV Milano-Bologna route.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Etr 600 Freccia argento



Paxromana said:


> Freccia Argento (sito Trenitalia) e a Lodi (Trainzitalia, nick: Alex)


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## Verso

Wow, I didn't know Italian trains were so fast, I thought they drove just 160 km/h (which still wouldn't be bad).


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## Federicoft

Why 160? Lol. You concentrate too much on highways. 

Anyway it's a big problem. They should absolutely invest much more on advertising, set some useless speed record and things like that.
Everybody knows France for its high speed trains for instance. We are spending dozens of billions € in one of the biggest high speed lines project in the world and hardly anyone knows anything about it, not even our neighbours (and I suspect many Italians don't know anything either).


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## Verso

Federicoft said:


> Why 160?


I thought the average speed was even lower.  Once I was looking at some HSLs, and their average speeds seemed to be just about 140 km/h. :dunno: A funny thing on the Trenitalia website is that by all intl trains between Italy and its neighboring countries they put a pic of a Slovenian pendolino, which doesn't even run in Italy any more. :lol:


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## elfabyanos




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## elfabyanos

Does anyone know what this construction is to the south of Bologna? It looks suspiciously like a new railway line is being constructed.

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=44.4561151&lon=11.3727593&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=1


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## Federicoft

That's the Bologna-Florence HSL, due to open in December 2009. 
From that point on the railway will run underground through the city centre in a new tunnel which is u/c along with a new HS station and will be completed in 2012. Until then trains will run on the old line through Bologna.

http://www.italferr.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e6c080e509eda110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD

Map:
http://www.italferr.it/cms-file/allegati/italferr/NodoBologna.pdf


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## elfabyanos

Thx


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## Eddard Stark

Verso said:


> I thought the average speed was even lower.  Once I was looking at some HSLs, and their average speeds seemed to be just about 140 km/h. :dunno: A funny thing on the Trenitalia website is that by all intl trains between Italy and its neighboring countries they put a pic of a Slovenian pendolino, which doesn't even run in Italy any more. :lol:


Average speed is one thing, top speed is another, commercial speed one more. Top speed reached on our AV lines is about 360Km/H. Commercial speed on new AV lines is pretty much everywhere 300Km/H, which is the speed the train maintains after leaving station and before reaching next. Consider it as the 130Km/h speed limit on highways.

Average speed is not used usually to measure AV lines. Average speed is actually the time it takes to travel between 2 stations divided per the distance. This of course is lower than commercial speed because of acceleration, deceleration and the pieces of urban railways which usually are not AV (for example Milan). Average speed on Milan-Bologna is theoretically about 200 km/h (65 minutes to cover 220km)

That said...average speed on highways is not 130km/h: to go from Milan to Bologna it doesn't take one and half hour for the same reason as for the train: you have to get in and out the city. So the average time is about 2 hours and 20 minutes (with no traffic problems of course). The average "highway" speed between the 2 city center is then about 100km/h

I hope that's clear


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## keber

Not only that, even on high speed lines actual speed of train varies quite a lot because of track configuration (hills etc). Especially evident is that on Paris-Lyon TGV track. And as I noticed even on Firenze-Roma line, where Pendolinos rarely reach maximum speed 250 km/h.


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## GENIUS LOCI

^^
Firenze-Roma was designed for a maximum speed of 250 km/h

It was the first HSR stretch in Italy (and in Europe) built in '70s
Now there is a project to upgrade it to allow 300 km/h speed


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## Amuse2000

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Today *NTV* (Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori) spa, which will be a private competitor with national railways (TrenItalia) on HS stretches, presented its own train: Alstom NGA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ntvspa.it/en/nuovo-trasporto-viaggiatori/37/3/high-speed-train-agv-italy-description
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> video (simulator)
> 
> news broadcasted by Italian network


looks fantastic


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## plottigat

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Now there is a project to upgrade it to allow 300 km/h speed


A project? I thought the upgrading was already u/c!

In 2009 the fastest milan-rome train will take 3 hours, and in 2012 when bologna's hs station will be finished?


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## Perennial Quest

Two trains on the Milano-Bologna during the testing runs.



dreaad said:


> bel video di marcia parallela sulla milano-bologna (230 vs 300 km/h)


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## Federicoft

The Milano-Bologna HSL has entered into commercial service this morning.


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## Verso

Congrats, beautiful trains.


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## keber

Nice trains, but ugly seats.


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## Perennial Quest

keber said:


> Nice trains, but ugly seats.


More than the seats themselves, I don't like that brown colour.
Although they're new, this way they doesn't seem very...clean.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Other pics of Milano Centrale



GArBa said:


> stamattina ho accompagnato la ragazza a fare il first certificate all'atahotel executive, e seguentemente (con l'abusata scusa del 'tanto è qui vicino') ho fatto con lei un salto alla stazione centrale e ho scattato alcune foto.
> 
> si comincia con una inquadratura abusata, ma d'obbligo per illustrare l'impressione della galleria delle carrozze finalmente (quasi) del tutto sgombra:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ed ecco le rampe mobili degli ellissi in funzione! naturalmente un bel giro non me l'ha levato nessuno!
> 
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> l'atrio e le biglietterie...
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> i tabelloni (quando spariranno quelli vecchi ci sarà una fantastica vista dal piano binari alla galleria di testa attraverso gli arconi!)
> 
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> 
> e infine i marciapiedi per servizio AV (niente treni purtroppo, ma si intravede un cisalpino etr470 nella seconda)


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## sdf11

I like the contrast old/new of the new Milano station....but the trains are the bad contrast I think...maybe when arrives the new AGV Italy will can fight with other countries in HST...

Also I have a dubt...Is this the same train that the Renfe HST S114??? its very similar...











Renfe S114:


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## Eddard Stark

Perennial Quest said:


> More than the seats themselves, I don't like that brown colour.
> Although they're new, this way they doesn't seem very...clean.


they are almost 20 years old...they have been under a restyling. Actually inside they are very roomy and nice, much better than TGV and ICE IMHO. Probably you cannot fell that from the pictures.

And outside the Frecciarossa is very nice...but I guess it's a matter of taste

The new trains from Alstom will be instead for NTV the competitor of Trenitalia. Italy will be the first country with a private HSR company challenging the former private monopolist.


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## Coccodrillo

sdf11 said:


> Also I have a dubt...Is this the same train that the Renfe HST S114??? its very similar...


Yes.

But the italian version is a tilting train, the spanish one doesn't tilt.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Eddard Stark said:


> they are almost 20 years old...


Not at all... the old ETR 500 are these ones










While 'new' ETR 500 are in line since the beginning of 2000










...they just choose awful seats


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## Eddard Stark

Genius they just changed the loco...but the wagons are the same ones.

I don't find seats ugly, maybe it looks so from the picture. I have travelled many times on them and they are nice and cozy. The table in the middle, in a nice wood material, is much better than the usual plastic stuff you get on trains or airplanes. And the bathrooms (which were the weak point of the pre-restyling ETR500) look like something from a stylish bar.

finally, what you see in pictures is the second class. First class and business areas are so confortable that there is no comparison with any other train I have travelled with in Europe


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## cristof

amazing, so now, we can go from Milano to Roma in using the High speed train during all the journey?


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## GENIUS LOCI

Eddard Stark said:


> Genius they just changed the loco...but the wagons are the same ones.


I think you miss my point

They restyled this ETR 500 version (_politensione_)

From this...










...to this










While old version of ETR 500 (_monotensione_), wich is the train you say has 20 years of 'life', hasn't been renewed (I don't think they use it in the future for new HS links)


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## Eddard Stark

cristof said:


> amazing, so now, we can go from Milano to Roma in using the High speed train during all the journey?


Not yet: next year they will open the last piece which is the Bologna-Firenze. This HSR is a fantastic engineering work, basically almost uninterrupt succession of 80km of tunnels betweent the 2 cities. Only the tunnel under the channel is comparable. Unfortunately it will not beat the world record since they are basically 5 different tunnels with few hundreds meters (sometimes few meters) open air in between. This line will cut almost 30 minutes more between Rome and Milan

But that's not all: in 2011 also the new HSR connection under Bologna should open, a 15 km tunnel which will bypass the city and connect the 2 HSR line Milano-Bologna and Bologna-Firenze. By then (hopefully) also the new HSR underground station of Bologna should open. This link should cut 15 minutes between Rome and Milan so it's an important piece of the project too.

So if everything goes according to plans, it would be possible in 2011 to connect Rome and Milan in 2 and half hours no stop. And that year the NTV - the private competitor of Trenitalia - will start its operation. So Italy may find itself suddenly on the forefront of HSR in europe


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## cristof

wahou great, thanks for the summary  
maybe the train will reach brussels so i could go to milano in HSR directly, 
is there a connection from Milano to the france to connect the HSR in italy with Paris?


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## Eddard Stark

GENIUS LOCI said:


> I think you miss my point
> 
> They restyled this ETR 500 version (_politensione_)
> 
> From this...
> 
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> ...to this
> 
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> While old version of ETR 500 (_monotensione_), wich is the train you say has 20 years of 'life', hasn't been renewed (I don't think they use it in the future for new HS links)


Maybe I am wrong but I am quite sure: they changed just the loco between monotensione and politensione...the wagons (the 12 wagons after the loco) are the same ones...20 years old more or less. They were extremely good wagons so they are still up to date. 

Trenitalia bought some years ago new locomotives for all ETR500 because of the decision to make new HSR lines at polytension instead of the normal monotension which we have in Italy


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## Eddard Stark

cristof said:


> wahou great, thanks for the summary
> maybe the train will reach brussels so i could go to milano in HSR directly,
> is there a connection from Milano to the france to connect the HSR in italy with Paris?


You don't wanna go there...we have been discussing a HSR link between Turin and Lion for quite a VERY long time...there are issues on the alpine valleys which do not want the line but they seem on the point to be fixed. Anyway we will not see HSR opened before 2025...my forecast.


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## cristof

ok, so wait and see


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## GENIUS LOCI

Eddard Stark said:


> Maybe I am wrong but I am quite sure: they changed just the loco between monotensione and politensione...


I knew they refurbished the wagons

Anyway by my personal experience, on old TGV interiors are quite ugly and dirty as they're the original ones, while on 'new' duplex TGV are very good
If I'm not wrong there was a refurbishment program for TGV old version trains


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## Federicoft

Eddard Stark said:


> Maybe I am wrong but I am quite sure: they changed just the loco between monotensione and politensione...the wagons (the 12 wagons after the loco) are the same ones...20 years old more or less. They were extremely good wagons so they are still up to date.
> 
> Trenitalia bought some years ago new locomotives for all ETR500 because of the decision to make new HSR lines at polytension instead of the normal monotension which we have in Italy


30 trainsets are brand new, including wagons.
30 trainsets have new locos and refurbished wagons.


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## hoosier

I suggested a Bologna-Venice line so that Venice and Rome would have a direct connection to one an other.


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## dreaad

but there aren't enough money


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## sämelihülz

> Train breakdown angers Swiss
> 
> The Cisalpino train jointly run by Switzerland and Italy is so unreliable that the Swiss want to take over responsibility for its maintenance.
> 
> One of the company's tilting trains broke down in the Lötschberg tunnel in southern Switzerland on Monday, and 200 passengers had to be transferred to a substitute. They suffered a delay of about two hours.
> 
> Cisalpino is a joint venture of the Swiss and Italian state railway companies.
> 
> Reacting to the latest breakdown, Swiss Federal Railways said on Tuesday that it does not think the Italian side is sufficiently fulfilling its obligations in maintaining the trains.
> 
> However, bringing the maintenance to Switzerland could pose contractual problems.
> 
> The Swiss have already taken measures to cope with the repeated problems posed by the Cisalpino, frequently running conventional rolling stock on the line instead. But Swiss Federal Railways does not have enough trains to dispense with the tilting trains altogether.
> 
> The Cisalpino train has run into problems ever since coming into service 12 years ago. Its fittings are often unreliable, and it frequently runs late.
> 
> A new, improved, generation of tilting trains was originally due to be delivered in May 2007; they are now scheduled to come into service in June 2009.


Flattering :lol:


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## joseph1951

wronny said:


> Joseph1951, where do you live now?


For the las 28 years resident in the UK with long stays in the US of A


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## joseph1951

hoosier said:


> Nice map. Shouldn't there be a connection from Bologna to Venice on TAV?
> 
> Also, are there plans to connect TAV to TGV in France?



NO


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## Coccodrillo

About Cisalpino trains: yesterday I arrived at home 2 hours late because the Milano-Zürich trains of 13.10 and 15.10 (or at least the second one) broke down. So the passengers of both trains boarded the 16.10 train: there were 600 people in a train with 450 seats, and even if I had a ticked with a reserved seat it was impossible to board the train: passengers were everyehere, even near the doors and the toilets.

Cisalpino personel asked me to wait for the 17.10 train, but i leaved Milano Centrale 25 minutes late. The 17.35 train also had 35 minutes of delay, the 19.10 (Firenze-Bologna-Milano-Zürich) was 3 hours late because an earthquake blocked the line near Bologna, finally only the 20.10 train leaved Milano Centrale on time.



> Reply
> Reggio Emilia HS Station is not connected to the rest of the rail network.
> It is a "gare des bettraves" (a beetroot station), a station in the middle of nowhere


No, it will/should be above a perpendicular regional railway.


----------



## cristof

why Eurostar as the the trains which reach London? the Italian TAV cannot put another name on it? can somebody explain me plz?


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## GENIUS LOCI

The name Eurostar, if I'm not wrong, is used for ETR 500 before Channel tunnel construction was finished


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## serdar samanlı1

GENIUS LOCI said:


> The name Eurostar, if I'm not wrong, is used for ETR 500 before Channel tunnel construction was finished


You mean the name "Eurostar" was first given to Italian HSTs than Channel Tunnel trains?


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## GENIUS LOCI

I'm not sure... anyway it is used since many years in Italy


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## sämelihülz

It would be cool to make a train Line from Milano, accross the Swiss alps, Zürich-Basel, then France, Strasbourg-Paris, and then to London without changing the train. A sort of High Speed Train through 4 countries.

What do you think about this idea?


----------



## joseph1951

cristof said:


> why Eurostar as the the trains which reach London? the Italian TAV cannot put another name on it? can somebody explain me plz?


Actually the "Eurostar" name was branded by Fiat Ferroviaria. The the name was leased as a branded name to the anglofrench TGV Transmanche, which is a quadri-voltage extremely long and narrower version of a TGV. 

So the anglo-french Eurostar has nothing to do with the Eurostar name and the train used in Italy. 
Later on, after the name "Eurostar" was leased to the anglo-british consortium, the Italians adopted the branded name "Eurostar Italia".

Although the anglo-fench Eurostar (TGV transmanche) is a TGV derivative is less poweful than a conventional TGV. 
However, it is far more perfomant thant the ETR500 Eurostar Italia now "ETR500 Frecciarossa AV fast".


----------



## joseph1951

GENIUS LOCI said:


> You're makin' misinformation now, as the Bridge is scheduled to be built


The bridge is in the final planning stage . The initial works should begin in 2010 and the bridge should be opened in 2016. 

This assuming that the government first approve the plan and then foot the bill. 

Also, given the *"biblical times"* (_this is a common Italian expression_) to carry out public work, I have serious doubt that the Bridge will be either built and then operational within the (very theorethical) time-scale quoted by the financial daily "Il Sole 24 ore" .


----------



## dreaad

eurostar is more performant in terms of acceleration (little more), but not in maximum speed reached during testing (355 vs 334).

eurostar is more powerful in terms of pure power than a standard TGV (12,2 MW vs 8,8 MW) but since it has 18 carriages vs 8 carriages the power/weight ratio is more favourable for standard TGV (16KW/ton vs 23 kW/ton)


----------



## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> eurostar is more performant in terms of acceleration (little more), but not in maximum speed reached during testing (355 vs 334).
> 
> eurostar is more powerful in terms of pure power than a standard TGV (12,2 MW vs 8,8 MW) but since it's have 18 carriages vs 8 carriages the power/weight ratio is more favourable for standard TGV (16KW/ton vs 23 kW/ton)


Which eurostar are we talking here? Look on wikipedia in English, French, Italian etc.
The TGV TMST "Eurostar three capitals" has 12,200 kw output and weigh about 790 tons. (2 locos + 18 carriages)
The regional Eurostar TGV TMST weigh about 590 tons and has 12,200 Kw output (2 locos + 14 carriages) 

The TGVs of second, third, fourth generations have an output of 8,800 kw and weight about 430-477 ton (depending on the type of TGV). 
This includes the TGV Duplex.
The TGV Pos is slighly more powerful than the other TGVs.
The Korean TGV is the least poweful of the TGV family . It carries about 1,350 passenger. It accelerates from 0 to 300 km/h in 6 minutes. Which for the French TGV is a slow accleration.
Susbesenquty the Korean have developed heir own train capable of 350 km/h,which is clearly a derivative of the Fench TGV they bought.
The 350 km/h korean TGV derivative has been sold to Turkey. The ETR500 has been sold only to Italy.
Why don't you ask yourself why the ETR500 has been sold only to the Italian railways?

The Italian Eurostar reached the 355 km/h passing from 199km/h to 355 km/h in 10 minutes and 44 second. 
On the TGV run Calais -Marseille (1067 kms in 3 hours 29 mins, 29 seconds) speeds of -360-366 Km/h were reached . Speeds above 320 and 360 were maintained for long time.

The Italian ETR500 has an output of 8,800 kw and weight 660 tons. With 2 loco + 12 carriage formation it can only exceeds 300-305 km/h on flat land and for very short periods.

On 3000 volt DC and above 200 km/h, with only one loco active, it develops only 4,400 kw.

The video on the record speed obtained with one of the two testing ETR500 , namely the ETR500Y, which is a train composed of eight carriages and 2 locos, has ben posted in this section of skyscraper railways.
You ought o look at it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV


----------



## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> eurostar is more performant in terms of acceleration (little more), but not in maximum speed reached during testing (355 vs 334).
> 
> eurostar is more powerful in terms of pure power than a standard TGV (12,2 MW vs 8,8 MW) but since it's have 18 carriages vs 8 carriages the power/weight ratio is more favourable for standard TGV (16KW/ton vs 23 kW/ton)


Who cares about the story of Turin and that the world "comes to Turin"?
The videdo you posted is also dubbed in American.. What next? Are we gong to see videos of the Roman Empire at its Height to justify the present mediocre trains?...

This is the ETR500 acceleration diagram which I posted on page 4 of this topic...

=========================================================
Here is the link containing the acceleration diagram of the reduced formation for the ETR500 (2 locos + 8 carriages) used on the Turin-Milan High Speed line.


http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5...ovarasvtv1.png



On The Milan-Bologna Line the 355 Km/h were achieved with the ETR500Y, which is capable of running under 3kv d.c. / 25Kv a.c., but it is a test train of a reduced formation of 2 locos + 3 carriages. This is the standard formation of the ETR500Y test train.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## joseph1951

joseph1951 said:


> this link should work . It is the speed diagram of the ETR500 on reduced formation with 8 carraiges from Turin AV, towards (Novara) Milan.
> 
> It is clear that the 300km/h mark is barely touched, after 50 km of slow acceleration on the HSL. Now the Tuirn Novara HSL is on the flat land of the Po valley. The same is true of the Milan-Bologna HSL line
> 
> On the Milan- Bologna line the Etr500 use to have 12 carriages , so it is feasible to assume that these heavier trains will have even a slower acceleration, on the very flat Milan- Bologna HSL .
> 
> But probably somebody will tell me that this is because of the type of sandy soil on the Milan HSL section is different to that of Turin HSL section.....
> 
> http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5378/torinonovarasvtv1.png
> 
> 
> *Bologna junction - Underground station *
> before joining the HSL, the non stopping train will slow down in tunnel at 160km/ then it will transit at a furher reduced speed on the undeground platform 2 or 3, then it will negotiate a tight curve with a radius of 475m, then it will climb up with an incline of 1.8 %, then it will resurface, then it will be connceted to the HSL to Florence by a crossover negotiable at a speed of 100 km.
> 
> Well ,... on the surface track 1 and 3 the transit is possible at 60-80 km/h and, immediately outside the railways station, towards Florence, the old line allows a top speed of 125 -km/145 km/h
> 
> http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/The Bologna Junction.pdf
> 
> 
> Florence Belfiore Station - undergound crossing
> 
> http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/Florence urban junction.pdf
> 
> after slowing down to 80km/h at Belfiore Station , where there are two curves, one of which is
> 305m radius, the train will continue to Campo di Marte at 110/km , then it will cross Campo di Marte Station, and continue at low speed for another 4 km to Rovezzano, where the historic DD begins.
> 
> http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/Florence urban junction.pdf


----------



## dreaad

joseph1951 said:


> Who cares about the story of Turin and that the world "comes to Turin"?
> The videdo you posted is also dubbed in American.. What next? Are we gong to see videos of the Roman Empire at its Height to justify the present mediocre trains?...
> 
> This is the ETR500 acceleration diagram which I posted on page 4 of this topic...
> 
> =========================================================
> Here is the link containing the acceleration diagram of the reduced formation for the ETR500 (2 locos + 8 carriages) used on the Turin-Milan High Speed line.
> 
> 
> http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5...ovarasvtv1.png
> 
> 
> 
> On The Milan-Bologna Line the 355 Km/h were achieved with the ETR500Y, which is capable of running under 3kv d.c. / 25Kv a.c., but it is a test train of a reduced formation of* 2 locos + 3 carriages. *This is the standard formation of the ETR500Y test train.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------


NOOOOO!!!
ETR500 *Y1* which did the record @ 355 km/h has *8 carriages*!!! 
http://www.railwaygazette.com/ur_single/article/2008/12/9128/getting_ertms_into_service_quicker.html

http://www.trenomania.org/fotogallery/thumbnails.php?album=976






only the Y2 test train has 3 carriages.
you mix it up with the special composition (3 carriages) of the TGV used for record of april 2007 (574.8 km/h).

there are other 3 ETR500 which have 8 carriages and are used on the turin-milan HSL. all the others 57 have 12 carriages.

you don't know how things are exactly.


p.s.: who cares about turin?!?!? who cares about your ignorance and stupidity??


----------



## dreaad

joseph1951 said:


> Which eurostar are we talking here? Look on wikipedia in English, French, Italian etc.
> The TGV TMST "Eurostar three capitals" has 12,200 kw output and weigh about 790 tons. (2 locos + 18 carriages)
> The regional Eurostar TGV TMST weigh about 590 tons and has 12,200 Kw output (2 locos + 14 carriages)
> 
> The TGV of second, third, fourth generations have an output of 8,800 kw and weight about 430-477 ton (depending on th type of TGV).
> This includes the TGV Duplex.
> The TGV Pos is slighly more powerful than the other TGV.
> The Korean TGV is the less poweful of the TGV family . It carries about 1,350 passenger. It accelerates from 0 to 300 km/h in 6 minutes. Which for the French TGV is almost unheard of.
> Susbesenquely the Korean have develope their own train capable of 350 km/h which is clearly a derivative of the Fenche TGV they bought.
> The 350 km/h Korena TGV derivative has been sold to Turkey. The ETR500 has been sold only to Italy.
> Why don't you aske yourself why the ETR500 is sold only to the Italian railways?
> 
> The Italian Eurostar Reached the 355 km passing from 199km/h to 355 in 10 minutes and 44 second.
> The TGV run Calais -Marselle (1067) kms in 3 hours 29 min 29 seconds Speed of 366 Km were reached . Speed above 320 and 360 were maintained for long time.
> 
> The Italian ETR500 has an output of 8,800 kw and weight 660 tons. On 2 loco + 12 carriages can only touch 300-303 km on flat land and for very short periods.
> 
> On 3000 volt Dc with only one loco activer can develop only 4,400 kw.
> 
> The video on the record sped obtained with one of the two testing ETR500 , coposed of three carriages and 2 locos is on this section of skyscraper railways.
> You ought o look at it.
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV



I referred to the eurostar used for international service. I know all the the technical data about TGVs and ETR500.
however the weight of an ETR500 with 12 carriages is 616 tons (68 tons for each loco plus 40 tons for each carriage).
that is to be precise.

I said before that ETR500 is slower than other trains, but with better comfort by comparison with ICE3 and newer TGV (duplex, reseau etc...). and not only italian people say that.

if you are convinced that italian HSLs are very bad... you don't understand anything.


in my behalf, this conversation with a so arrogant person ends now.


----------



## joseph1951

joseph1951 said:


> joseph1951 said:
> 
> 
> 
> this link is for th eofficial web site of Trenitalia AV
> 
> http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/cms-file/allegati/_shared/Alta_Velocita.pdf
> 
> According to the above document in pdf the new 55 Trenitalia trainsets homologated for 350km/h will be bought by 2011.
> 
> Perhaps is worth remembering that, according to the UIC rules, to homologate a given train speed it is necessary to exceed the homologation speed by a minimum of 10%.
> Therefore, a train which has an homologated speed of 350 km/h must reach at the very least, and repeatedly, 385 km/h.
> 
> That's why the Spanish Velaro has an homologatd speed (i.e.: maximum speed) of 350km/h and, prior the homologation of that speed has reached 403 km/h).
> 
> The old French TGV Sud Est , which originally had a top speed of 270 km/h reached 380km/h.
> 
> The 355 km/h reached by the Italian ETR500 on the newly opened HLS Milan Bologna (after 10 min and 44 seconds to accelerate from 199km/h to 355 km/h could hardly qualify the ETR500 for a top commercial speed of 320 km/h.
> 
> Also
> 1- the top speed must be reached in shortish time. The Velaro accelerates from 0 km/h to 350 km/h in 380 seconds, or 6 minutes and 20 seconds.
> The top speed must be sustained.
> 
> The documents from Trenitalia AV gives also th HSL timetable for 2009.
> It would appear that timetable contains contradictions.
> Namely,
> Milan_Rome non-stop (from Milano -Centrale to Roma Termini) = 3hrs for about 570-579 km =
> From Milan -Rogoredo to Rome Tiburtina: 2h 45 minutes
> From Milan - Naples 5hrs 35 minutes and limited to a few HSL ETR 500
> Rome Naples HSL in 1 hour 10 minutes and also 1 hour and 21 minutes= averaging about 180/km/h or 151km/h...
> Frecciaorossa AV
> From Milan to Florence 1 hr 45 minutes
> 
> Plase note that on the historical lines
> a) Milan -Bologna = 219 km
> b) Bologna - Florence 97 km
> Total distance Milan -Florence on the historical lines 316 km
> 316 km : 105 minutes = Avergae speed of 180.57 km/hour
> 
> The new Bologna Florece HSL should be shorter that the historical line.
> 
> http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/cms-file/allegati/_shared/Alta_Velocita.pdf
Click to expand...


----------



## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> NOOOOO!!!
> ETR500 *Y1* which did the record @ 355 km/h has *8 carriages*!!!
> http://www.railwaygazette.com/ur_single/article/2008/12/9128/getting_ertms_into_service_quicker.html
> 
> http://www.trenomania.org/fotogallery/thumbnails.php?album=976
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> only the Y2 test train has 3 carriages.
> you mix it up with the special composition (3 carriages) of the TGV used for record of april 2007 (574.8 km/h).
> 
> there are other 3 ETR500 which have 8 carriages and are used on the turin-milan HSL. all the others 57 have 12 carriages.
> 
> you don't know how things are exactly.
> 
> 
> p.s.: who cares about turin?!?!? who cares about your ignorance and stupidity??


_The video talks about the history of Italy in a pompous manner an it is dubbed in American.

It is propaganda at its worst, and I find it offensive to all intelligent italians and foreigners. The Americans know about the Italian Renaissance. 

Some American are extemely well educated (this also applies to many, many other foreigners). _

_In this forum we talk about trains not Renaissance, with particuarly emphasis on Turin as "caput mundi" , on everything.

Not even Mussolini has such bad a taste._
With regards to my ignorance , my late wife was American and she taught English and American Literature and Cambridge (UK, not Mass, USA) . 
When I was young I got a Master at Yale...but I am Italian, from Ferrara.
And now I am extremely ill and crippled..(and I should be in bed...)

That's why, perhaps, I bother passing the time with people like yourself.
There was a time when Italy was creative. But, in my opinion, Italy, in the last 40 years. has increasingly become a second rate czarist-borbonic-retrograde nation. 

Static and rigid.

Expanded egos is all its left......


No, I do not mix up the ETR series Y, which are used for testing lines, with the TGV which holds the world speed record of about 574,8 km/h, and which was an experiment made not only to test the new AGV motors, but also to test the techincal limits of the conventional rail lines, (and also to sell trains).

Up to 30 years ago the rail engineers did not even know what was he limit of contact between rail and wheel.. 

(*Please refer to the late professor Giovanni Klaus Koenig's: Oltre il Pendolino, Valerio Levi Editore, Roma 1986*)


The TGV holder of the world speed record was an experimental train to push to the limits the technical envelope rail + train.

_I was told, and I also read that the ETR500 series Y had 3 carriages . Even if the ETR500 Y had 8 carriages it is clear that it accelerates very slowly._

At Melegnano (20km south of Milan Grand Central Station) it travels at 199km/h.
From 199km/h to 330 km/h it takes about 5 minutes and 45 seconds.
This hardly qualifies it for a 300km/h continuous commercial speed. (max commercial sustained speed +10%).

Italy has many medium size towns every 50-80 kms. Therefore acceleration is an important factor.

The ETR500 was originally planned for a max commercial speed of 250-275km/h. 

It is a traditional heavy train (like the ICE1). Given the original plan they fixed it quite well. But, from the perfomance point of view, it cannot compete for accelaration and top speed with other HS trains of diferent concept.

Also, it is more than rumored that, during the record of the fampus 355km/h there were problems with the catenary and the pantograph.

To be fair, the experimental TGV holder of the world record of 574,8 km has caused some damages to the rails. But it was travelling at a speed of over 224 km/h higher that the ETR500 Y2..
Severe damages to the tracks and and catenary occurred even when, in the mid 1950, the French pushed a train at sped of over 330 km/h.. That experiment was also carried out to test the limits of the techonology available at the time......


The experimental TGV holder of the world speed record has demonstrated that:

a) The new highly efficient motors (planned for the AGV) were working, and also that:

b) with improvement in planning, design, construction and twiking it is possible to build trains which can run in excess of 360km/h consuming 15-20% less than a conventional TGV running at 300km/h.

The new Talgo AVRIL will have a commecial speed of 380km/h and will weigh less than 300 tons. 

Perhaps if to the *ETR500 Y2 + 8 carriages *they had put skirts to cover the frontal bogies of the two locos, they would have reduced the air drag by 10%, or - if you prefer - the train would have had at its disposal 10% more energy at a very high speed.

It is well known that, with a train like the TGV to pass from 300km/h to 360 it requires a doubling of the amount of energy fro an increase of 20% in speed.

Thus the need of pushing the technology to find acceptable solutions.


To cover the frontal bogies of the two locos of the ETR500 requires 4 pieces of metal. At Trenitalia this is known. Since they have carried such type of experiment.

Nevertheless, they should have asked Ferrari..

It is well known that at speed above 300Km/h the air drag becomes the main problem.

Given 300-500km free line, the ETR500 Y2 wold have even exceeded the 355km record.

The 355 km/hour were reached at about 100-106 km from Milan Central station. Then, it was time to apply the breaks.....


Somebody , on this forum, has mentioned FOL, a good Italian railways forum. On FOL (hte old and the new Fol forums) there is all the story of the 355km/h record.

Furthermore, it seems that the *ETR500 Frecciarossa AV train fleet *will have its bogies replaced by the TGV bogies produced by Alstom..

It is reported in FOL as well. 

The Spanish have TGC, Simens Velaros. Talgo, Italian tilting and non tilting trains. The Talgos. They have HST capable of 350 km/h andl also regional feeder HST capable of 330 km/h (Talgo 350) and of 250km/h.

Quitetly quitely they have built almost 2000 km of HSL and in a few years they plan to have 7000 km of HSL of standard gauge. And Spain is very mountainous. The averga heigh is 700 metres above sea level.. 

The Chinese have bought all the western and japanese technology (including the maglevs) . They even maneged to build night trains capable of 250km/h..

The Koreans bought the TGV and then built their own super TGV capable of 350 km/h and they exported it (even to Turkey)

Nototmention the Japanese. Teh Htachi trains are even sold to UK.. And they will build a maglev line of a 580 km/h top speed.
Learning means aso to compare ones project with the projects of other nations. 
What is the point of endlessy eluogize ones miracle train named ETR500 Freciarossa AV, and desecrate what other nations and engineers have achieved. It is only with an honest compararison of alocal product (the ETr500) with what other technicians and nations have come up with that progress can be achieved. The obstinate refusal to honestly analyse and, when appropriate recognised that others have come up with better solutions is detrimental and counterproductive.

You have mentioned the http://www.railwaygazette.com, but have you had a look in the said website at the world record commercial speeds?

Merry Christmas


----------



## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> NOOOOO!!!
> ETR500 *Y1* which did the record @ 355 km/h has *8 carriages*!!!
> http://www.railwaygazette.com/ur_single/article/2008/12/9128/getting_ertms_into_service_quicker.html
> 
> http://www.trenomania.org/fotogallery/thumbnails.php?album=976
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> only the Y2 test train has 3 carriages.
> you mix it up with the special composition (3 carriages) of the TGV used for record of april 2007 (574.8 km/h).
> 
> there are other 3 ETR500 which have 8 carriages and are used on the turin-milan HSL. all the others 57 have 12 carriages.
> 
> you don't know how things are exactly.
> 
> 
> p.s.: who cares about turin?!?!? who cares about your ignorance and stupidity??


Talking of www.railwaygazzette.com have you seen this:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_...lines_boost_rails_high_speed_performance.html

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2007/09/7742/new_lines_boost_rails_high_speed_performance.html
Rail World speed survey-
for instance

World Speed Survey: New lines boost rail's high speed performance 

04 Sep 2007 | Dr Colin Taylor

……………

France's Ligne à Grande Vitesse Est Européenne between Paris and Strasbourg is the first railway in the world where trains can run at a maximum speed of 320 km/h (199 mile/h). This has helped to lift the record for the fastest scheduled rail journey to 279.4 km/h, compared with a best of 263.3 km/h two years ago. Making full use of the higher speeds, a French TGV trainset covers the 167.6 km between the new stations at Lorraine TGV and Champagne-Ardennes TGV in just 36 min. 
The fastest trains in each country - from Railway Gazette's World Speed Survey 2007
Full survey (PDF)
Country From To Distance, 
km Time, 
min Speed 
km/h 
1 *France Lorraine TGV Champagne TGV 167.6 36 * 279.3 
2 Japan Okayama Hiroshima 144.9 34 255.7 
3 Taiwan Taichung Zuoying 179.5 44 244.7 
4 International Brussels Midi Valence TGV 831.7 204 244.6 
5 Germany Frankfurt Airport Siegburg/Bonn 144 37 233.5 
6 Spain Madrid Atocha Zaragoza Delicias 307.2 81 227.6 
7 China Shenyang Bei Qinhuangdao 404 123 197.1 
8 S Korea Seoul Yongsan Seodaejeon 161 50 193.2 
9 UK London King's Cross York 303.2 105 173.3 
10 Sweden Alvesta Hässleholm 98 34 172.9 
11 Italy Rome Termini Florence SMN 261 92 170.3 
12 USA Baltimore Wilmington 110.1 41 161.1 
13 Finland Tikkurila Tampere 177 67 158.5 
14 Austria St Pölten Linz Hbf 122.7 48 153.4 
15 Norway Lillestrøm Gardermoen 30.2 12 151.2 
Related News: 
US seeks high speed PPP proposals - 19-12-08 10:59 
Shinkansen prototype launched - 20-11-08 11:36 
'Peregrine falcon' to be fastest trains in Russia - 23-09-08 12:31 
Kawasaki unveils 350 km/h Environmentally Friendly Super Exp... - 18-09-08 11:15 
NTV targets 20% market share by 2015 - 01-09-08 09:09 
Polish high speed plan - 27-08-08 09:00 
Beijing - Tianjin high speed line opens for business - 31-07-08 14:57 
Velaro sets Chinese speed record - 27-06-08 17:12 
UK high speed rail development fund announced - 13-06-08 08:00 
World Speed Survey 2007 update - 02-11-07 07:38
Files: 
RailwayGazetteWorldSpeedSurvey2007_01.pdf
<- Back to: News 


_Referring to me you said_: "Who cares about your ignorance and stupidity"

*Are you sure I am the ignorant and supid one?*

With regards to: www.trenomania.org/fotogallery/thumbnails.php?album=976[/url]

This is a web-site for (bitchy) children....


----------



## dreaad

but do you have some difficulties understanding what I've written??
maybe you are not so intelligent as you say (if you have really got a master at yale, it's even worse).

I said perhaps that ETR500 is the best train all over the world??
NO!
you're annoying me with your monotone posts talking about how fast are TGVs. 
I already know it and I already admit their superiority concerning perfomance in comparison to high speed italian trains.


you mentioned that TGV concept is used in many countries.
but do you know that the tilting train concept (a purely italian invention) is used in much more countries?
so italian railway engineering is not so bad.


----------



## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> eurostar is more performant in terms of acceleration (little more), but not in maximum speed reached during testing (355 vs 334).
> 
> eurostar is more powerful in terms of pure power than a standard TGV (12,2 MW vs 8,8 MW) but since it's have 18 carriages vs 8 carriages the power/weight ratio is more favourable for standard TGV (16KW/ton vs 23 kW/ton)


In fact you are right. The TGV Eurostar TMST with a power ratio of about 16kW/ton cannot compete with the TGV Atlantique, Reseau or Duplex which have about 22-23 kW/ton.
This is especially true in the very crowded Ligne Paris-Lyon which, at time have one train every 4-5 minutes in each direction. 
Given the fact that the LGV Paris-Lyon has a section with an incline of 3.1% (or 31 per thousands (as it is calculated in Italy) in case of slightly late running of TGV Eurostar Three Capitals, the train cannot make up time.

However, the TGV Three capitals manages to cover the 112 km from London St Pancras to the Portalof the Channel tunnel in about 30-35 minutes, in spite of the fact that this line has three constraints:

1- Exit in tunnel for St Pancras. In the tunnel the top speed is 230 km/h
2- Slow down at Ashford (flyover) at 240 km/h and 
3- slow down to 160 km/h before entering in the Channel tunnel.


For the same reason the ETR500 cannot go to Paris. The Macon-Dijon part of the line (about 1/3 of the Paris Lyon) is too hilly. The ETR500 won't keep up with the TGVs.


The same is also true for the German new line, which has an incline of 4% (40 per thousand) and, among the ICE fleet, this line is only used by the ICE3 when it does not break down.


----------



## dreaad

last clarifications



> The old French TGV Sud Est , which originally had a top speed of 270 km/h reached 380km/h.


that TGV was NOT standard: it had bigger wheels and tension was increased to 29kV.
ALL ITALIAN RECORDS WITH ETR500 ARE DONE IN STANDARD CONDITIONS (both for the trainset and the tension)

the only TGV record in which the trainset was standard was the long test run between calais and marseille in june 2001.




> The Italian ETR500 has an output of 8,800 kw and weight 660 tons. On 2 loco + 12 carriages can only touch 300-303 km on flat land and for very short periods.


yes, but on flat land a 12 carriages-ETR500 can run @ 300km/h for long periods, not short.

the same with older TGVs on the HSL paris-lyon over the hills, where they can run no more than 270 km/h.


----------



## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> but do you have some difficulties understanding what I've written??
> maybe you are not so intelligent as you say (if you have really got a master at yale, it's even worse).
> 
> I said perhaps that ETR500 is the best train all over the world??
> NO!
> you're annoying me with your monotone posts talking about how fast are TGVs.
> I already know it and I already admit their superiority concerning perfomance in comparison to high speed italian trains.
> 
> 
> you mentioned that TGV concept is used in many countries.
> but do you know that the tilting train concept (a purely italian invention) is used in much more countries?
> so italian railway engineering is not so bad.



The tilting train (ETR401) was one of the best train built n Italy in the last 40 years.
First around the early '70, they bui ltonly one prototype, and this prototype was in service three times a week on Ancona-Roma. 

The politicians snobbed it . Fs did the same.
Then in 1985 - circa - with the DD half built, they discovered that they had no train capable of 250km/h running. 

Therefore, they ordered Fiat ferroviaria to built a longer version of the ETR401.
15 or so years had elapsed after the original ERT401 had been built, and Fiat Ferroviaria was given very little time to build the ETR450. 

So it was not posibile to upgrade the new tilting train (the pendolone ETR450) with new engines and electrical equipment, choopers , etc (elettronica di potenza).
Nevertheless, the ETR450 was a superb train. 

In Italy it was never used at its full capacity . For the italian orography and its rail network it was a far better choice than the ETR500. 

Once the DD was completed, in case of late running, several ETR450 managed to do Rome-Florence at a steady 260km/h with a journey time Rome-Florence from point to point of 1h 10 minutes, 1h 15 min

Milan-Bologna 1h 23 - 1h 26 min minutes . The ETR500 on the same line: 1h 43 minutes..

The Etr 460 had teething problems. Also the pleasant, but square Giugiaro nose caused too much air drag....which prevented it to reach 275 km/h as emergency max speed.

The Fiat tiltings were sold to half of world: from Finland to China. 

Since Fiat had no support neither from the Italian governement nor from FS it had no chice but to sell the tilting to Alstom.

Once you sell a patent, the patent is not yours anymore. Once sold the Pendolino became French: an Alstom train. End of story. 
Now they've got the full range. Italy has nothing.


Alstom was not doing well before the construction of the first French High Speed Line, but it had the support both of the French government and of the SNCF. 

Since when SNCF has bought foreign trains?

Now Alstom is a world player, and the Italian Railways industry is almost inexistent.
Political myopia and sutpidity....... Please don't blame me for this.

For the record, Fiat had also planned a new and faster version of the Tilting. It was very light. Also it had had emergency air-brakes, lke the new Japanese Shinkansen 360, and the top commercial speed was to be of 320 km/h.

*The Pedolino Avril *(nothing to do with the future 380km/h Talgo Avril) remained just an idea 


Initially, the distance of the non-stop Bologna-Padua (123 km) was covered in 1h 3 minutes. Now with the ETR 500 (lately EScity) it takes 1h 15 minutes. 
At least this was true during last Summer.

================================

You might enjoy two Italian railways books , if you can still find them. 
They might be out of print. 

1- The already mentioned Giovanni Klaus Koenig : Oltre il Pendolino. Valerio Levi Editore , Roma, 1986

2- Werner Hardmeier - Ascanio Schneider: Direttissima Bolgna-Firenze-Roma, Edizioni Locodivision, pubblicato da Orell Fuessli Verlag Zuerich und Wiesbaden ,1989
and for the Italian Edition , Edizioni Locodivision , Via Cassino 41, Torino, 1990
==========================================================
Koening does not only talk about the Pendolino but his book is a real Italian Railway Encyclopaedia.
They are both superb books. 

==========================================================
I am not against the ETR500. It is a 250km conventional heavy train which has been greatly improved with the second series. But it has its conceptual limitations.
In y oinion there is a need of long distance light trains with extremely fast accelerations ad top speeds of 320km/h or more. There is also a need of tilting and not tilting HSL trains (Regional trains of 5-6 carriages) to feed the long diostances HST . For instance 3- to 6 cariages HSL regional feeding trains with a power under 3000 volt of 1500kW 
With permanent magnetic induction motors , such as those of the AGV. This should not be a great problem. A six carriages regional train weighing 240 tons and capable of developing 6000kW on the Venice-Mestre, which is electrified as the DD on 3000 volt dc, Or a similar train on the DD..or between Milan and Venice , and capble of developing more power on the 25kW ac..

There is also the need of dual voltage locomotives capable of developing 6000 kW on 3000 volt dc and more under 25kW ac. There is also urgent need for regional double decker trains, capable of 200km/h FOR COMMUTERS AND ALSO for day and Night Intercities. 200km/h commuters trains, and 200-230km/h day IC and 200-230 Night IC trains are quite common in many European Countries, from France, to Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc.

Why spending pharaonic sums of money for building an hypothetical Bridge on the Straight of Messina, while you don't even have the rolling stock to use on the new and old lines? 

You are still using the E444 which were build almost 40years ago.
Never heard of Taurus Locos, Eurosprints, etc.?

Never mind the High density double decker trains (TAF) with a top speed of 140 km/h........

Last but not least: the adriatica line is almost entirely doubled . It could be capable of 200km/h running but, in the doubled or reconstructed sections, the top speed is limited to 150 km/h because the Bacc signalling system has not been installed.......... And yet Bologna-Bari is 650 km long ,and Bologna-Foggia 799 km long (if I remember correctly..) an over +30% increase in speed could make a big difference..


----------



## dreaad

but in your opinion don't I know all the things that you've mentioned??

I know *ALL* about it. I know the current limits of italian railway. I know that it needs much improvements in management and new trainsets. I know well that italian railway industry is small now.

what is your contribution in this topic?? saying only that italian railway is very bad and we're retrogade. ok, this is true in part, but it's not very useful.
why don't you mention for example that italian engineers of Ansaldo Breda were the first to put in operation the ERTMS level 2 (European Rail Traffic Management System) and all oher engineers from france, germany and so on came here to learn how to succeed?
in spain, engineers tried to use it on the HSL madrid-lleida, but since they didn't succeed they used the old ASFA system with limited speed of 200 km/h.
and now they have upgraded to ETRMS level *1* on the HSL madrid-barcelona and speed is limited to 300 km/h (level 2 is scheduled in short terms however), instead of 350 km/h as previously forecast, and it will remain so as stated the minister of public works, Magdalena Álvarez.


Concerning HSL, the long run service has just started and next year it will be almost completed (except urban nodes), even if with several years of delay. 
but it's important that finally the service has started and in these first days things are going well (concerning delays).

concerning the adriatica, when the delivery of the 12 tilting ETR600 to trenitalia (during 2009) will be completed, there will be a fast service between turin/milan and apulia, using the HSL until bologna. and more fast links ,using both historical and high speed lines, can be put in service.


----------



## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> last clarifications
> 
> 
> 
> that TGV was NOT standard: it had bigger wheels and tension was increased to 29kV.
> ALL ITALIAN RECORDS WITH ETR500 ARE DONE IN STANDARD CONDITIONS (both for the trainset and the tension)
> 
> the only TGV record in which the trainset was standard was the long test run between calais and marseille in june 2001.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes, but on flat land a 12 carriages-ETR500 can run @ 300km/h for long periods, not short.
> 
> the same with older TGVs on the HSL paris-lyon over the hills, where they can run no more than 270 km/h.


---------------------------------------------------------------
1- The first TGV trainset which set the world train speed on the Paris-Lyon was not the one which set the world rail speed of 574,8 km/h . 

The latter was of reduced formation (2 locos + 3 carriages) overpowered and, on the carriages, they had mounted the new motors to be used on the AGV. 
The tension of the catenary had to be incresed by 50%. The electrical supply was raised to 31 kW ac (according to the French), from the standard 25kW ac. 
The pantograph on the loco at the back was modified to take into account the more rigid catenary. The patograph at the front of the train was removed. The rail section in which the speed 150V was to be reached, or exceeded was also modified. 

They had to test both the effectiveness of the concept of the train at its maximum technical envelope. 
The aerodynamic of the set was also modified. 

After the run at 574,8 damages to the track were detected.

The protype TGV which hold the world record speed on rail of 574,8 was a mere prototype. 

It cannot be compared with a standard TGV. Incidentally the TGV POS Duplex run daily at 320 km/h and runs at 360km/h occurs freqently on the TGV Est with the TGV Duplex.

When running late the TGV runs also at 330 km/h between Lyon and Marseille, on daily basis.
Many runs to 500 km/h carried out on the last two years have shown that at those speeds the TGV is safe. 

2- For the Calais-Marseille non stop run the conventional TGV used had its electronic configuration modified to allow to draw 8,800 kw X 2 = 17,600 kw for about 50 minutes. This gives it a faster acceleration and it can reach and sustain 360km/h for long period of time.

To tweak trains, catenary, engines , rails for experimental purposes is nothing new.

It was also done in 1939 in Italy with the ETR200 on the record run Florence -Milan .
On the ETR200 the nominal electric power of the catenary was raised from 3,000 volts to 4,000 volts. The copper of the catenary was replaced with a better quality copper. 

Several tracks on curves were welded (famous is the welding of the curve of Modena).

An experimental run made with an experimental train is just an experiment ,and at best, it serves to test the conceptual limits.

Suffce to say that the French reached about 331km/h with a test train in the mid '40 but they then run trains at max speed of 160. 

They have reached an official world record of 574,8 km/h but they run trains of maximum commercial speed of 320km/h . SNCF never wanted the AGV (formerly called TGV NG) which is capable of sustained speed of 360km/h. 

The AGV has been imposed to SNCF by political and industrial forces. The SNCF policy focus of mass tranportation of passengers at 300-320 km/h. 

That is why SNCF likes the TGV Duplex which often runs in double formation.

When you can run tweaked experimental tains at 574,8 km/h.........

When you can run over 176 km of track, in about 36 minutes at an average speed in excess of 271 km/h......... (consider tha the new HSL Milan- Bologna has 182 of HS tracks).................. 

When you can run 1067 kms on 3 hours 29 minutes and 29 seconds,........

When you can run 12 -15 trains per hour per track, like in the Paris-Lyon, then you will start to be almost at par with Franace...........

On the Raways gazzete I posted the lines of the fastes railways scheduled runs in the world. 

Italy manages a mere 170 km/h with the fastes train on the DD.
France over 271/km/h.

Why don't you look at the link posted? .Since you know everything...


----------



## Coccodrillo

> The electrical supply was raised to 29,5 kW ac, from the standard 25kW ac.


kV, not kW


----------



## joseph1951

Coccodrillo said:


> kV, not kW



Thank you cocodrillo for spotting my typo. It would have been understood anyway


----------



## dreaad

> [...] Italy manages a mere 170 km/h with the fastes train on the DD.
> France over 271/km/h.
> 
> Why don't you look at the link posted? .Since you know everything...


it's useless... you always pretend to not understand me.


OK...guys: *ITALIAN HIGH SPEED RAILWAY IS RIDICOLOUS AND PATHETIC*

and now you should be happy


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## sdf11

This would be the best train for the italian geography! and the short distance between cities!!











Light weight and with a nice acceleration and suficient top speed (330kmh)


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## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> it's useless... you always pretend to not understand me.
> 
> 
> OK...guys: *ITALIAN HIGH SPEED RAILWAY IS RIDICOLOUS AND PATHETIC*
> 
> and now you should be happy


I am neither happy non unhappy. The world commercial record speeds are on the railway gazette. I posted the link.


At a certain age one ought to learn to distinghuish facts from fiction or from 
wishful thinking.

Your "sour grape attitude" will certainly not improve neither Trentalia nor the tone of this debate


----------



## joseph1951

sdf11 said:


> This would be the best train for the italian geography! and the short distance between cities!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ETR500 Y1 and ETR500 Y2
> 
> *The Y1 is composed of 2 locos (67 tons each) and 3 carriages of 40 tons each = total weight 254 tons. *Power output 8,800 Kw = 34,64 kw/ton.
> 
> Compared to reduced composition of "tweaked TGVs" ,as my felows Italians call them it perfomarce is sluggish.
> 
> On the Milan-Bologna HSL, from 0 km/h the Y1 it has reached a speed of 300km/h after 5min and 42 seconds of constant acceleration, and a top speed of 334 km/h after over ten minutes from the departure.
> 
> *Perhapsit is worth noting that with this massive power/ton ratio the acceleration is still sluggish when compared to other types of HST.*
> 
> The Y2 is composed of 2 loco and 8 carriages = 454 tons and under 25kV a.c. it develops a maximum power (but for how long?) of 8,800 kw.
> It is not clear which of the two (Y1 or the Y2) is the holder of the record speed of 355km/h.
> 
> The ETR500 Y1 and Y2 have the same nominal power of the ETR500 used to carry passenger. The Y1 and Y2 are merely train used to test the lines.
> 
> Perhaps it should be noted that, in China, 350km/h are reached daily on commercial speed with a wider version of the German Velaro.
> 
> Also the TGV Sud Est which is commercially scheduled for 320km/h running, often exceeds this speed to make time in case of late running. It is also used to test the line at commercial speeds of 360km/h.
> 
> 
> Detto for the TGV on the Lyon-Marseille: 330 km/h runs are quite common.
> 
> Indeed France boasts an impressive number of runs between 360 and 500km/h.
> 
> Here below I have pasted the youtube site where Y1 and Y2 are compared.
> 
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LtBPYpyBGtc


----------



## dreaad

^^ wrong! it's the opposite

ETR 500 Y1 (which did the record @ 355 km/h) has 8 carriages; since you are italian read here http://www.ferrovie.it/phpBB2/viewt...start=45&sid=60e76ee817843a9915113e2f910423d8



> Attenzione gli ETR dignostici di RFi sono 2:
> 
> *Y1* - *8 carrozze* che si trova in giro per l'Italia a fare prove di segnalamento e misure relative al contatto pantografo-linea aerea.
> 
> *Y2* - 3 carrozze attualemente (di cui 1 presa da un treno di serie) che si trova in Turchia per effettuare prove sulla nuova Linea AV (il treno dovrebbe essere strumentato con dispositivi atti a valutare le caratteristriche della dinamica di marcia)
> [...]



on the french sud-est/mediterranean HSL ,the top commercial speed is 320 km/h and not over only between valence and avignon. on the rest of the line speed is "limited" @ 300 km/h.

since there is more and more traffic on this HSL, last timetable is slightly increased for no-stop TGVs paris-marseille (4 minutes more, 3h03'). but this is normal considering the amount of traffic on this track.

I hope that also in italy there may be a similar situation within some years.


----------



## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> ^^ wrong! it's the opposite
> 
> ETR 500 Y1 (which did the record @ 355 km/h) has 8 carriages; since you are italian read here http://www.ferrovie.it/phpBB2/viewt...start=45&sid=60e76ee817843a9915113e2f910423d8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on the french sud-est/mediterranean HSL ,the top commercial speed is 320 km/h and not over only between valence and avignon. on the rest of the line speed is "limited" @ 300 km/h.
> 
> since there is more and more traffic on this HSL, last timetable is slightly increased for no-stop TGVs paris-marseille (4 minutes more, 3h03'). but this is normal considering the amount of traffic on this track.




The link you have posted refers to the old FOL website. The post on The ETR500 Y1 and Y2 dates back to 7 September 2007.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Since then FOL (ferrovie on Line) has change to a new FOL website!!!!!!!!!!

Since the ETR500's Y1 and Y2 are conventional (test) train with top and tail locos, the composition of ETR500 Y1 an Y2 is variable.

I have posted various youtube videos of ETR500 Y1 and Y2 on Milan-Bologna, some of them running in parallel with ETR50O destined to passengers , etc
The Milan-Bologna 334km/ record was obtained with the ETR Y1 (according to the video)

I also posted ERT50 Y series for the testing of the Milan-Florence HSL, where the train have reached a fantistic speed of 316km/h.
Why don't you watch first the videos?

To test a newly built line at speeds well above the maximum planned speed of the new line is a standard practice. After the completion of the first part of the Paris -Lyon, the line was tested with a TGV at 380 km/h .Then that section wento into service with an initial top speed of 260Km/h.

Before the commercial opening of the first section of the LGV sud Est, the train+line envelope was tested to the limit of 574,8 km/h.

574,8 km/h of record speed , and initial maximum speed in revenue service of 320 km/h . 

Therefore the inital max revenue speed is 254.8 km/h lower than that of the of the record speed achieved. 
Or , if you prefer, the maximum revenue speed = is 79% lower than the record speed attained on the same line.

If I were to apply the French parameters to the Italian record speed of 355 km/h to the claimed max revenue speed of 300/km and 350km/h (as claimd by several of you) then the revenue speed to be implemented in revenue regime, on the MI-BO HSL should less than 200km/h, for the ETR500 in heavy composition of 12 carriages.

So, the French are more prudent than the Italians. 


Please note that, in France, in the last 5-10 years, many trains over several lines, have made many runs at speed around 400km/h and also above 500km/h. 


For SNCF is pretty standard procedure to make a record speed, and then to reduce that speed in commercial revenue by 150-250 km/h



The commercial opening of the first section of the LGV Sud Est took SNCF by surpirse they were limited to sell only 1 million tickets because overwhelmed by the demand. They had insufficient TGVs to satisfy the clients' demand. As a matter of fact SNCF is desperately short of TGVs.

Once upon a time the SNCF practices which this company still uses today, were
also used by the Italian FS enginneers.
===== 

In 1998 a reduce rake formation of the ICE1 was tested at above 400 km/h


----------



## dreaad

because the last record @ 355 km/h was done with Y1 that has *8* carriages.
and these diagnostic trains were not ever modified.
if RFI needs a reduced trainset, it uses the Y2.

also for the approval of the ETR500 for commercial speed of 300 km/h (10% more, so 330 km/h) there were used ETR500 with 8 carriages. 

in your video, there is only written Y1 vs Y2 but it doesn't specify which is the Y1 and Y2.

other proofs: 



> L’ETR 500 Y1, convoglio diagnostico di Trenitalia, ha battuto lo scorso 1º marzo, alle ore 17,23, il precedente record italiano di velocità, raggiungendo la velocità di 355 km/h tra...http://www.duegieditrice.it/tuttotreno/default.asp?num=218


by FOL on the 24 of September 2008 (is it enough recent??)
http://www.ferrovie.it/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=627583&sid=965831a92fc94709611b46e40babed80



> con 14 vetture i 300km/h li vedono con il binocolo....già con *8 dell'Y1 *nei tratti in salita....


----------



## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> because the last record @ 355 km/h was done with Y1 that has *8* carriages.
> and these diagnostic trains were not ever modified.
> if RFI needs a reduced trainset, it uses the Y2.
> 
> Reply:
> not necessarily One of then is equipped to test the overhead line. The other more equipped for the track
> 
> 
> *also for the approval of the ETR500 for commercial speed of 300 km/h (10% more, so 330 km/h) there were used ETR500 with 8 carriages. *
> 
> Reply:
> 
> *And here "ci casca l'asino" *or is "*where the donkey drops dead*"
> *For the very well knon UIC homologation rule (vmax +10%) the ETR500 was homologated (or certified) for 300 km/h running only in composition of 2 locos +8 carriages"*
> 
> 
> *The "ETR500 Frecciarossa AV fast" (but couldn't they choose a shorter and less pompous name?) running on Milan -Bologna HSL is made of 2 locos + 12 carriages.
> 
> Thus effectively limiting the top speed at 250 km/h. In fact during the normal runnings it potters along at 220-254 km/h . Only exceptionally, and if late, - it dashes for about 30 km or 5 minutes - at 300-303 km/h.*
> This does not mean a sustained maximum commercial speed at 300 km/h.
> 
> Furthermore, during the 18 hours a day, during which the HSL is operational there are about 15-16 trains in each direction. 1 Train per hour!!!!!!!!!!!
> --------------------
> 
> _in your video, there is only written Y1 vs Y2 but it doesn't specify which is the Y1 and Y2._
> *Reply:
> You can check the youtube page which I have indicated. On the right handside of the page you will see a long list of Y1 and Y2 videos.
> I am sure you can do that. *
> ------------------------------
> 
> *Rome -Naples HSL.*
> Opened in 2005.
> Initially the journey time was *1h and 27 minutes for 204 km*.
> Now the journey time has been reduced to 1h 21 minutes Km 204:81 x60) = 151 km/h, of average speed.
> The number of HSL trains available on this line is limited to 10-14 pairs a day.
> 
> *In the early '70 the EMUs Ale 601, running on the historical Rome-Naples line, were making the journey Rome Naples in 1h 30 minutes*.
> Incidentally the EMU Ale 601 held for a long time the Italian speed record of 270 km/h(*achieved by these EMUs in the early-mid 60, if I remember correctly*) .
> Thus in 2008 (almost 2009) , after having built a totally new and dedicated rail high speed line between Rome and Naples the Italian ralways has obtained a time journey reduction of 3 minutes (in the ast 40-47 years).
> Congratulations!
> 
> Incidentally: what you write on the Italian websites has a quite different tone (apart from saying the the ETR500 run silky-smooth on the Rome-Naples (at an average of 150km/h).
> 
> *TGV capabilities*
> 
> On December 2005 I was accompaning an 83 years old quadripelgic man with assisted repiration (batteries) from London to northern Italy. We boarded the Lille-Nice TGV. The batteries got discharged almost completely just before Lyon TGV. We made an emergency stop at Lyon TGV.
> Mr H. blood pressure was 290-180 and he was unconscious.
> The engineers/nurses managed to recharge the batteries for an extra 28 minutes (we stopped in the Lyon station for 36 minutes).
> 
> It was not the case to put the gentleman onto the ambulance. To cross Lyon to go to the hopsital would have been too time consuming.
> 
> It was then decided to reconfigure the TGV computer (to have 17,600 kw avalable for 50 minutes), and it was decided to make a fast run from Lyon to Valence (which is a small town).
> The journey Lyon-Valence start to stop was made in 15 minutes.
> Mr H. now lives in Cesena. I know what a TGV is capable of. I also know very well that , in second class, the seating configurations of the TGV of the first three generations are too cramped.
> 
> But originally the TGV was meant for a 2 hour journeys
> 
> Happy Honica or Happy Hanukkah


----------



## gincan

^^
Lyon-Valence in 15 minutes, are you sure? That would mean an average in the 350km/h range.


----------



## joseph1951

gincan said:


> ^^
> Lyon-Valence in 15 minutes, are you sure? That would mean an average in the 350km/h range.


Yes but it was an emergency A vital one.


----------



## dreaad

> Furthermore, during the 18 hours a day, during which the HSL is operational there are about 15-16 trains in each direction. 1 Train per hour!!!!!!!!!!!


currently there are *25* couples of ETR500 between milan and rome/naples running on the HSL, more than the magnificent HSL madrid-barcelona (21 couples). 
but italian HSL is NOT complete now. when it will be completed (turin-milan-rome-naples/salerno), there will be many more couples.

in the 2011, together with trenitalia there will be also the AGVs of NTV : it's forecast that there will be 65 couples on the milan-bologna HSL (towards rome/naples and the adriatica) and 35 couples on the turin-milan HSL (towards rome/naples,veneto and the adriatica).




> Thus effectively limiting the top speed at 250 km/h. In fact during the normal runnings it potters along at 220-254 km/h . Only exceptionally, and if late, - it dashes for about *30 km or 5 minutes *- at 300-303 km/h.



yes yes yes :sleepy: 










p.s.: 309 km/h is probably an error of uncertainty of the GPS










in the last image, the unexpected stop was due to the loss of GSM-R signal for the ERTMS level 2 (since it's a radio link,it seldom may happen).

in these days, as i said before, the majority of the ETR500 did the journey between 60 and 65 minutes on the milan-bologna HSL and they run @ 300 km/h if they haven't speed limitations due to lack of good maintenance (it's a thing to improve without any doubt).

however (and this is the second time I say) the high speed service has just started; do you think that when, in 1981, the paris-lyon HSL was opened, the service was so efficient like now??

corcerning your experience over the "super TGV", do you think it's usual ?
it was an extraordinary event, like the long run record between calais and marseille.
for my own experience, i did twice a journey between marseille and paris over duplex TGVs and the maximum speed reached was 320 km/h on a short part of the mediterrean HSL.



> In the early '70 the EMUs Ale 601, running on the historical Rome-Naples line, were making the journey Rome Naples in 1h 30 minutes.
> Incidentally the EMU Ale 601 held for a long time the Italian speed record of 270 km/h(achieved by these EMUs in the early-mid 60, if I remember correctly) .


yes, it's true. in fact I admit that trenitalia imposes long journey time for fear of delays (and in some cases high speed trains arrive early).
i've already admitted but you pretend to not listen to me, and you keep on writing always that ETR500 is very slow (true in part but with WRONG EXAMPLES), TGV is very fast and so on...but evidently, you think of knowing the situation very well.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT YOU REPUTE ITALIAN RAILWAY A VERY BAD EXAMPLE (even if it's just started).


----------



## Federicoft

joseph1951 said:


> Thus effectively* limiting *the top speed at 250 km/h. In fact during the normal runnings it potters along at 220-254 km/h . Only exceptionally, and if late, - it dashes for about 30 km or 5 minutes - at 300-303 km/h.[/B]
> This does not mean a sustained maximum commercial speed at 300 km/h.
> 
> Furthermore, during the 18 hours a day, during which the HSL is operational there are about 15-16 trains in each direction. 1 Train per hour!!!!!!!!!!!


The number of factual incorrect statements in each and every of your posts is so high that any attempt to address your points becomes pretty much impossibile. 

I would just like to concentrate on this paragraph.

a) In the first sentence you say the ETR.500 is "limited" at 250 km/h, and few words after you contradict yourself by saying it can exceptionally reach 300 km/h. 
b) None of the above statements is true BTW. ETR.500 regularly reach 300 km/h on the Milano-Bologna HSL.
c) There are not 15 trains per day in each direction. There are 25. More than on the Madrid-Barcelona HSL you said we should take as an example a few post above.
d) The TAV project is not yet completed. Most of the work is done, but there are still some projects going on (such as the urban bypasses, which will boost commercial speed). All works are due to be completed by 2011, and by that date it will be possibile to travel from Rome to Milan in 2h 30min, and possibily even less in the future on new trains, since the Italian HSLs can endure by project speeds up to 350 km/h. This is better than or comparable to any other international HSL. Moaning now about TAV performances makes absolutely no sense, and proves you are totally biased and have some sort of agenda. 

I don't wish to get involved in a pointless debate so feel free to ignore this post, as I have nothing more to say.

Happy Hanukka to you too.


----------



## dreaad

edit: I quoted the wrong message.

@ joseph:
however, thank you for let me understand that this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBiL2VLPmFo is just a pure "fascist" propaganda...we have the voice of truth...


----------



## dreaad

> Incidentally: what you write on the Italian websites has a quite different tone (apart from saying the the ETR500 run silky-smooth on the Rome-Naples (at an average of 150km/h).



also other forumers say the same thing...not only me.and this is true.
I have a different tone on the italian websites because there are people that are able to read correctly what i write, without annoying me in long debates talking about the history of the TGV records, the pendolino etc.

all this is to say that to always say that the italian high speed railway is ridicolous (even if i admit more times it's improvable without any doubt because it's not completed yet).


----------



## dreaad

edit


----------



## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> currently there are *25* couples of ETR500 between milan and rome/naples running on the HSL, more than the magnificent HSL madrid-barcelona (21 couples).
> but italian HSL is NOT complete now. when it will be completed (turin-milan-rome-naples/salerno), there will be many more couples.
> 
> in the 2011, together with trenitalia there will be also the AGVs of NTV : it's forecast that there will be 65 couples on the milan-bologna HSL (towards rome/naples and the adriatica) and 35 couples on the turin-milan HSL (towards rome/naples,veneto and the adriatica).
> *Reply
> We will have to see.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes yes yes :sleepy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> p.s.: 309 km/h is probably an error of uncertainty of the GPS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..............................
> 
> WE UNDERSTAND THAT YOU REPUTE ITALIAN RAILWAY A VERY BAD EXAMPLE (even if it's just started).



The firs diagram shoe about 300 km between km 12-13 and 20..
detto for the second.
On FOL new webiste, a webiste that you quoted several times the average speed of teh ETR500 Frecciarossa AV fast etc on 24-25 pages of topic..

The speed and accelreation of ETR500 on the HSL MIlan Bologna are also in several youtube videos/
Look at them.
Trenital has progresively lenghten the journey times , for its own reasons. ALL the HSL built in Italy have a max top technical speed of 300 km/h with some limitations to 220 Meste-Padua and Milan-Treviglio, and to 240 around Modena of the Milan -Bologna

From the New FOL Milan -Bologna-Topic AV (3) page 21

-----------------------------------------------------


Milano Bologna AV (3)
Moderatore: Redazione



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Autore Messaggio 
pamwagner47 Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: ven 19 dic 2008 9:36 


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Iscritto il:
sab 05 mag 2007 16:13
Località: Castrum Sebini, dove t'illumini d'immenso da occaso ad oriente, aura favente. Ipocrisia.... o prevenzione?

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pendolare-arrabbiato Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: ven 19 dic 2008 9:41 


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Iscritto il:
gio 03 nov 2005 18:49 Fesseria... Gia' Bologna e' al limite, e lasciargli sul gobbo deliberatamente degli ES che ogni 15 minuti gli tengono occupato un binario magari per 10 minuti vuol dire provocare ulteriore casino su un nodo gia' incasinato di suo

_________________
-------------- 
Ciao Giuseppe 




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daucus Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: ven 19 dic 2008 12:00 


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Iscritto il:
mar 13 apr 2004 14:03
Località: Lontano, molto lontano, dall'adige e dal Piave non tanto per gli ES RM-MI che finché sono ogni 15' che non creano problemi (alla peggio è il treno in anticipo che fa segnale) quanto per gli altri treni che si dovrebbero infilare tra un ES e l'altro -si pensi agli IC con orario random-

_________________
Il presente messaggio e` stato scritto in lingua toscana.
coloro che ignorano le "finezze" di tale lingua sono pregati dall'astenersi dal fare considerazioni sul significato delle parole, che potrebbe essere diverso da quello delle altre lingue. 




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pamwagner47 Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: ven 19 dic 2008 12:26 


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Iscritto il:
sab 05 mag 2007 16:13
Località: Castrum Sebini, dove t'illumini d'immenso da occaso ad oriente, aura favente. Il 9432 da Napoli é a Bologna con -12...alla faccia della prevenzione "infortuni"...

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pendolare-arrabbiato Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: ven 19 dic 2008 13:27 


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Iscritto il:
gio 03 nov 2005 18:49 daucus ha scritto:
non tanto per gli ES RM-MI che finché sono ogni 15' che non creano problemi (alla peggio è il treno in anticipo che fa segnale) quanto per gli altri treni che si dovrebbero infilare tra un ES e l'altro -si pensi agli IC con orario random-


*infatti, gia' con i Fecciarossa in orario a Bologna devono fare i giocolieri per far passare i regionali e i treni dall'adriatica, se poi gli piazzi un Fecciarossa fuori tempo ...*
_________________
-------------- 
Ciao Giuseppe 




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pendolasco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: ven 19 dic 2008 23:12 


^_^ 
NUmber of trains HSL ciruclatin on MIlan -Bologna the + sign indicates dealys

Iscritto il:
*ven 20 gen 2006 22:18 * 

9500 -3
9501 +2
9502 +139503 -1
9504 +31
9505 0
9506 +4
9507 -2
9508 +4
9509 +6
9510 -5
9511 -8
9512 +4
9513 -7
9515 +26
9517 +21
9518 +2
9519 +58 in progress


No many for a line which has a theretical capacity of 20 trains hour in each direction = 40 trains hour x 18 hours a day = 720 train. 15-17 train a day either in each direction of or in both direction are nothing if one think that the old line is working weel beyond its limits. By trenitali does not have dueal tension locos and thus it cannot send IC on the old and nwe MIlan-Bologna. In Te =he '90 the IC were covering the MI-Bologna in 1h 42 minutes on the old line Noww the very few IC left cover the same distance in 2h:30 minutes.

Wonderful use of such an expensive fixed structure.

*Rome-Naples HSL , in operation since 2005 has a dozes or so ETR500 AV a a few ETR500 non AV. The journey on the ETR Freciaorossa AV takes 1h 21minutes, on the ETR500 non AV much longer. 
The Chinese are running the Chinese version of the Velaro at 350 km/h. Please refers to the topic on china reported in this web-site, on the Chinese topic
The same is true for the topic on France , Spain, etc. They are all on the Skyscrapercity railways section.
If I am a liar so are the French , the Japanese, the Spanish, the Chinese, the Russians etc writing on the other railway sections of this website.*



aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: sab 20 dic 2008 8:47 


* 



Iscritto il:
lun 22 dic 2003 21:09
Località: Milano & Marotta piccolo TR del mio primo viaggio in AV con il 9519
Ttreno arrivato a centrrale alle 1838 *previsti 10 minuti di ritardo*1857 ancora in stazione
1858 porte chiuse
1859 si parte
transitiamo da lambrate alle 1903 a velocita' sostenuta
transitiamo a Rogoredo 1906 ci lanciamo x raggiungere i 220 dopo qualche minuto
Pm melegnano 1911 aspetto l'arrivo dei 300 kmh ma nulla! non supereremo mai i 254 raggiunti alle 1921 sul ponte po
alle 1941 *transitiamo a Reggio Emilia noto il ponte Calatrava dopo qualche minuto riduciamo la velocita' a 220 kmh intravedo modena alle 1947 subito dopo aumentiamo la velocita' a 230 *per poi iniziare ad anzola l'avvicinamento a Bologna ci fermato un minuto alla proezione vicino al deposito Arrivo ed apertura delle porte bologna alle 2004

treno pieno ma con pochissime persoe in piedi niente a che vedere agli eurostar verso l'adriatic, la sovracapicita' inizia a farsi sentire?
*la riduzine ai 250 ha impedito di recuperare ritardo ma il tempo di percorrenza rimane comunque 1h05 *la velocizzazione in uscita da Milano si percepisce rispetto un mese fa
il comfort di viaggio e' il migliore in assoluto in Europa su linee AV l'ETR 500 vince la sfida con TGV ed AVE ICE1 ICE2 non ho provato i Velaro in AV 
Infine ho discusso con persone napoletanne cafone che si lamentavano che il treno non era il Frecciarossa ma un Pendolino ahahahahahaha immaginate cosa ho risposto! 
domani altro TR





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pamwagner47 Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: sab 20 dic 2008 9:34 


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Iscritto il:
sab 05 mag 2007 16:13
Località: Castrum Sebini, dove t'illumini d'immenso da occaso ad oriente, aura favente. Ci mancherebbe ancora! Come ultimi non potevamo proprio aver anche questo.

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spiff Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: sab 20 dic 2008 9:48 


* 



Iscritto il:
mar 29 lug 2008 14:59
Località: Metanopoli (MILANO) Ieri sera ero sull'Autosole in direzione Piacenza all'altezza di Lodi verso le 20.45 quando ci ha superato *un ETR500 diretto verso Bologna... non sembrava andare molto veloce, noi andavamo a 130 km/h e a occhio e croce il treno non andava molto sopra i 200[/B]... però è una stima un po' a spanne fatta da me e da un amico. Il treno sembrava abbastanza vuoto... a questo proposito com'è in generale la frequentazione su questi treni? Sia i no stop che gli altri AV? Il fratello di un mio amico che prima faceva il pendolare settimanale su Bologna ora passerà a fare il pendolare giornaliero grazie alla nuova linea, immagino che non sarà l'unico... sarà interessante vedere come cambieranno gli spostamenti con l'AV! 

_________________
Quando esci per intraprendere il viaggio verso Itaca,
prega che sia lunga la via,
colma d'avventure, colma di conoscenze... 




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Grand Voyageur Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: sab 20 dic 2008 9:53 


** 



Iscritto il:
ven 23 mar 2007 12:09
Località: Ovunque arrivi un treno.. O come cambieranno ancora con NTV... 

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gbelogi Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: sab 20 dic 2008 10:14 


** 


Iscritto il:
lun 21 ago 2006 18:08
Località: tra Biassono e Cernusco sul Naviglio, sto traslocando aleall ha scritto:
piccolo TR del mio primo viaggio in AV con il 9519
----------------------
Infine ho discusso con persone napoletanne cafone che si lamentavano che il treno non era il Frecciarossa ma un Pendolino ahahahahahaha immaginate cosa ho risposto! 
domani altro TR


Sto ascoltando in questo momento un servizio di Radio24 sull'alta velocità: "siamo delusi perchè il treno non è il nuovo Frecciarossa, per ora destinato solo ai servizi non-stop"

Ma sono tutti quanti orbi?

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pendolasco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: sab 20 dic 2008 10:31 


^_^ 


Iscritto il:
ven 20 gen 2006 22:18


gbelogi said:





aleall said:



Ma sono tutti quanti orbi?

Click to expand...

.. no rincoglioniti





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etr480 Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: sab 20 dic 2008 11:06 


* 



Iscritto il:
mar 23 dic 2003 17:16
Località: entre Cannes et Caen per farci 2 risate... in un forum (di 2 ruote motorizzate) a cui sono iscritto, una persona parlando del suo primo viaggio con la redarrow (strano tra l'altro che i genialoni di TI non abbiano messo il nome in inglisc) ha scritto:

Cita:
Bene, insomma salgo sul treno e una volta sulla tratta Bologna-Milano il treno inizia praticamente a volare.....
Nel viaggio di andata succede addirittura che si incontra un treno in senso contrario per cui siamo costretti a fermarci perche', ci spiegano, lo spostamento d'aria di due treni ad alta velocita che si incrociassero porebbe addirittura far deragliare il convoglio 


sono ancora qui che mi rotolo sul pavimento ... 

_________________
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pamwagner47 Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: sab 20 dic 2008 11:34 


** 



Iscritto il:
sab 05 mag 2007 16:13
Località: Castrum Sebini, dove t'illumini d'immenso da occaso ad oriente, aura favente. 

_________________
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pilot_64 Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)Inviato: sab 20 dic 2008 14:19 


^_^ 


Iscritto il:
sab 20 dic 2008 13:53
Località: San Giovanni in Persiceto (Bo) aleall ha scritto:
piccolo TR del mio primo viaggio in AV con il 9519
Ttreno arrivato a centrrale alle 1838 previsti 10 minuti di ritardo (10 minutes late in Milan Central)
1857 ancora in stazione (still in Milan)
1858 porte chiuse (closed the doors)
1859 si parte (departure
transitiamo da lambrate alle 1903 a velocita' sostenuta
transitiamo a Rogoredo 1906 ci lanciamo x raggiungere i 220 dopo qualche minuto (Transit at Rogoredo at 220km/h).

Pm melegnano 1911 aspetto l'arrivo dei 300 kmh ma nulla (After melegnano I wait for the 300km/h but nothing happens ) ! non supereremo mai i 254 raggiunti alle 1921 sul ponte po [WE will never exceed 254 km/h]alle 1941 transitiamo a [B at 19 : 41 transit on reggio Emilialia

Click to expand...

*


gbelogi said:


> noto il ponte Calatrava dopo qualche minuto riduciamo la velocita' a *220 kmh *
> (I note the Calatrava Biridge and a few minutes later the speed is reduced to 220km//H intravedo *modena alle 1947 *subito dopo aumentiamo la velocita' a *230 *per poi iniziare ad anzola l'avvicinamento a Bologna ci fermato un minuto alla proezione vicino al deposito Arrivo ed apertura delle porte bologna alle 2004
> 
> treno pieno ma con pochissime persoe in piedi niente a che vedere agli eurostar verso l'adriatic, la sovracapicita' inizia a farsi sentire?
> la riduzine ai *250 ha impedito di recuperare ritardo ma il tempo di percorrenza rimane comunque 1h05 *la velocizzazione in uscita da Milano si percepisce rispetto un mese fa
> il comfort di viaggio e' il migliore in assoluto in Europa su linee AV l'ETR 500 vince la sfida con TGV ed AVE ICE1 ICE2 non ho provato i Velaro in AV
> Infine ho discusso con persone napoletanne cafone che si lamentavano che il treno non era il Frecciarossa ma un Pendolino ahahahahahaha immaginate cosa ho risposto!
> domani altro TR
> 
> 
> 
> Complimenti! ero anche io a bordo del 9519 da MI a Bo e posso confermare le velocità rilevate col mio Tom Tom.
> *Confort eccellente ma mi aspettavo i 300 anch'io...* *Excellent confort but I too was expecting the 300km/h...*
> Ciao
> 
> _________________
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> 
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----------



## Federicoft

dreaad said:


> where where???i said exactly the opposite: the normality is 300 km/h, the exception is 250 or less (if some problems occurs).
> you are not able to read...even if you got a master at yale.


i was replying to joseph.


----------



## Federicoft

joseph1951 said:


> The firs diagram shoe about 300 km between km 12-13 and 20..
> detto for the second.


What the heck are you talking about?



It kept a 300 km/h speed from km 70 to km 180.
And a >250 km/h speed from about km 30 to km 185.
This on a 215 km long line.

Please...


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## Federicoft

I think nobody has posted this yet. Sardinia will have its small TAV by 2010 too. 

It's a Talgo high speed train, which will link the two main cities on the island, Cagliari and Sassari, in about 2 hours at speeds up to 180 km/h.


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## gincan

^^
With only a few strategic placed tunnels and a few new realignments they should be able to slash of 15-20 minutes of traveltime, though I guess that is not high on the agenda today.


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## Federicoft

Yep. Initial travel times will be 2h 15min, but the realignments of two stretches are planned, and this will cut travel times by 25 minutes.


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## joseph1951

joseph1951 said:


> dreaad said:
> 
> 
> 
> because the last record @ 355 km/h was done with Y1 that has *8* carriages.
> and these diagnostic trains were not ever modified.
> if RFI needs a reduced trainset, it uses the Y2.
> 
> Reply:
> not necessarily One of then is equipped to test the overhead line. The other more equipped for the track
> 
> 
> *also for the approval of the ETR500 for commercial speed of 300 km/h (10% more, so 330 km/h) there were used ETR500 with 8 carriages. *
> 
> Reply:
> 
> *And here "ci casca l'asino" *or is "*where the donkey drops dead*"
> *For the very well knon UIC homologation rule (vmax +10%) the ETR500 was homologated (or certified) for 300 km/h running only in composition of 2 locos +8 carriages"*
> 
> 
> *The "ETR500 Frecciarossa AV fast" (but couldn't they choose a shorter and less pompous name?) running on Milan -Bologna HSL is made of 2 locos + 12 carriages.
> 
> Thus effectively limiting the top speed at 250 km/h. In fact during the normal runnings it potters along at 220-254 km/h . Only exceptionally, and if late, - it dashes for about 30 km or 5 minutes - at 300-303 km/h.*.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
> 
> 
> 
> Happy Honica or Happy Hanukkah
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear dreaad,
> 
> After my earlyer reply I went on Ferrovie on Line (in their new website) on the topic "MIlano- Bologna AV (3), pages 29-30-31 of the topic, where, *much to my horror, you described me as a "repented Italian living abroad and shovelling "manure" (to use an euphemism) on the famous ETR500.*
> 
> *You also asked the other fomumers on FOL to help you to combact me and my work of "disinformation" on the wondeful ETR500 Frecciarossa AV (sic!!.*
> 
> You gave them explicitly the link of those pages where I posted my arguments.
> 
> To compare different technical solution does not mean "*to shovel shit on the ETR500*" , as you politely put it.
> 
> Also in FOL (new websites) Milano AV (3) pages 29-30-31 it is clear - beacuse it has been written by Italian FOL aficionados - resident in Italy that:
> 
> 1- You have only 59 2nd generation ETR500 trinsets of which 30 operational.
> 
> 2- That it seeems that the 2nd generationn of ETR 500 made of 2 locos + 8 carriages totals 3 trainsets.
> 3 trainsets seems to be insuffficient do to a complete Turin-Milan service.
> 
> 4- That you do not have ANY dual voltage 200km/h loco with the ETRM 2 installed. For these dual voltage locos + ETRMS 2 you will have to wait at least 2-4 years.
> *It is on FOL.*
> If necessary I will paste the FOL pages mentioned and then Iwill translate them into English.
> This action should depict you and your acolites in your true light.
> 
> If you have any decency left in you you should apologise not only to the people partecpating to this forum but also to me.
> *This is a serious forum, not your back garden!*
> 
> Happy New Year!
> 
> 
> http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22820&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=420
> 
> 
> http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22820&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=420
> 
> http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22820&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=435
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22820&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=450
> 
> PS:
> 
> There are many other people reading this forum who are not Italian, but know Italian.
> 
> Your attempt to discredit me just to shup me up, might be detrimental to you.
> 
> People might agree in a civilised manner to disagree on certain issues.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Also from the posts in those three pages in FOL it emerges:
> 
> i) That you have also asked your chums if it was an ETR500 in composition of 2 locos + 8 carraiages which was certified for 300km/h
> 
> ii) That you did not know that to certify a train to a given speed, the max commercial speed +10% must be achieved.
> 
> *For your benefit:*
> 
> The Velaro is certified for 350 km/h of sustaing runnnings, and during the certification runs it has achieved 403 km/h (if I remebermber correctly)
> The Chinese version of the Velaro (which is more than 300 cm wider that the original ICE3) it is certified at 350 km/h max commercail speed ,but (unmodified) it has reached 393 km/h.
> 
> Please see the relevant Spanish and Chinese topics on this site.
Click to expand...


----------



## dreaad

I wrote always the truth, admitting the current limits of italian railway and it needs improvements so i haven't to apologize with anybody.
you used this forum as your back garden writing many lies to discredit italian infrastructure... YOU have to apologize to the other forumers, not the opposite.




> After my earlyer reply I went on Ferrovie on Line (in their new website) on the topic "MIlano- Bologna AV (3), pages 29-30-31 of the topic, where, much to my horror, you described me as a "repented Italian living abroad and shovelling "manure" (to use an euphemism) on the famous ETR500.


yes because, to sum up, this is what you've written (with false examples, upon which i replied with the correct info).
on the contrary, i wrote that these trains have worse performance compared to some others, not that they are perfect.




> i) That you have also asked your chums if it was an ETR500 in composition of* 2 locos + 8 carraiages which was certified for 300km/h*
> ii) That you did not know that to certify a train to a given speed, the max commercial speed +10% must be achieved.


again, YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO READ. and you discredit me like past times.
I know for certain that only ETR500 with 8 carriages were tested @ 330 km/h (in fact i wrote this in this forum).
I asked in FOL forum if *also *ETR500 *with 12 carriages* were tested @ 330km/h (i think not, but i was unsecure).


> gli ETR500 con 12 carrozze sono stati testati a 330 km/h per l'omologazione a 300??


DON'T CHANGE WHAT I'VE WRITTEN.



> People might agree in a *civilised *manner to disagree on certain issues.


ahahahah, you are not the correct person to do preachings...do you remember what you wrote about turin (who cares about turin...??).
so you've started writing in bad manner and talking tauntingly about an argument that nothing has to do with the present topic.


----------



## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> I wrote always the truth, admitting the current limits of italian railway and it needs improvements so i haven't to apologize with anybody.
> you used this forum as your back garden writing many lies to discredit italian infrastructure... YOU have to apologize to the other forumers, not the opposite.
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> yes because, to sum up, this is what you've written (with false examples, upon which i replied with the correct info).
> on the contrary, i wrote that these trains have worse performance compared to some others, not that they are perfect.
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> again, YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO READ. and you discredit me like past times.
> I know for certain that only ETR500 with 8 carriages were tested @ 330 km/h (in fact i wrote this in this forum).
> I asked in FOL forum if *also *ETR500 *with 12 carriages* were tested @ 330km/h (i think not, but i was unsecure).
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> DON'T CHANGE WHAT I'VE WRITTEN.
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> Reply:
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> This was you have written, remember the law on liable.
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> From FOL
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> FOL AV Milan –Bologna (3) 27-12-08 page 29 -1
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> http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22820&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=420
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> Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Moderatore: Redazione
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> Pagina 29 di 31 [ 455 messaggi ] Vai alla pagina Precedente 1 ... 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 Prossimo
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> marco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 14:33
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> lun 29 dic 2003 15:51 Grande Puffo ha scritto:
> Per i treni IC di oggi che vanno in LL e restano incastrati fra i regionali mi sembra un furto
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> Allora tutti i treni a tariffa IC/ESC sono un furto dato che viaggiano su linee dove passano reg e merci, e allora?????
> 10 euro al mese sono 0,50 cent al giorno, 0,25 cent a viaggio, per treni il cui biglietto a tariffa piena è quasi il doppio di un regionale.
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> E poi, per favore, basta con sta storia degli IR del 2005. Ci sono ancora, tanti quanti come prima, MI-PR e PC-AN e questo ai pendolari di PC non reca una presunta scomodità.
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> Il vero problema si è manifestato a Giugno 2008 con la soppressione di numerosi IC Mi-Fi.
> Questo è stato il vero problema.
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> Per quanto concerne il servizio "pendolari AV", entrare e uscire dalla LL genera perditempo che fanno perdere il guadagno in termini di percorrenza.
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> Basterebbe ripristinare un servizio cadenzato orario IC/ESC dorsale/adriatica tra MI e BO....senza progettare chissà quali servizi!
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> gbelogi Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 15:02
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> lun 21 ago 2006 18:08
> Località: tra Biassono e Cernusco sul Naviglio, sto traslocando Secondo me il vero problema è che nessuno vuole dire chi deve pagare i treni dei pendolari, sia che siano lenti e sporchi che veloci e puliti.
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> Prima di chiedere questo o quell'altro servizio, possiamo mettere in chiaro chi deve pagare? Fino a che non ci sarà chiarezza se il servizio viene pagato direttamente dai pendolari o dallo stato, o dalle regioni (quindi con tasse locali), o da Trenitalia, tutti questi discorsi sul costo di treni EC, AV, IC, IR e regionali mi sembrano senza senso.
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> Alla fine, mi sembra che il tanto vituperato Moretti potrebbe avere più ragione di tutte le altre parti in causa, che si lamentano, si lamentano *ma che poi non vogliono mai aprire il portafogli, costringendo Trenitalia a introdurre aumenti "travestiti" (vedi gli ESCI e gli ICPLUS) e a prendersi tutte le colpe. Troppo comodo, soprattutto per i politici locali.*
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> Grande Puffo Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 15:05
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> mer 28 gen 2004 13:06
> Località: Torino / Traves in estate marco ha scritto:
> Grande Puffo ha scritto:
> Per i treni IC di oggi che vanno in LL e restano incastrati fra i regionali mi sembra un furto
> Per quanto concerne il servizio "pendolari AV", entrare e uscire dalla LL genera perditempo che fanno perdere il guadagno in termini di percorrenza.
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> Basterebbe ripristinare un servizio cadenzato orario IC/ESC dorsale/adriatica tra MI e BO....senza progettare chissà quali servizi!
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> *I produttori di automobili ringraziano.*
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> Secondo te uno di Piacenza che lavori a Milano deve tornare a Piacenza con l'ultimo Milano-Bari o con il successivo Milano-Pescara?
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> Entrare ed uscire genera perditempo per cui non si deve fare, si va in AV da MI a PC ed in LL da PC a BO, così si evitano circolazioni pesantemente eterotachiche in LL da MI a PC. Al limite se è necessario si torna in AV da MO a BO, sono pochi km ma evitano interferenze con il servizio urbano di BO. Fai due righe di conti, è più eterotachico *un EScity impostato ai 200 *in AV in mezzo agli ES impostati ai 300 od un EScity impostato ai 180 il LL in mezzo ai regionali con fermata in tutte le stazioni?
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> Si diceva che 5.000 pendolari vanno in macchina tutti i giorni da PC a MI. Non credo che sia perchè il 10 Euro di "carta IC" sono troppi. Probabilmente se gli offri al triplo del prezzo di oggi un parcheggio alla stazione, un posto fisso prenotato su un ETR che faccia Piacenza-Rogoredo-Centrale ed un ritorno "open" riempi il parcheggio di Audi, Mercedes e BMW. Ovviamente non li devi imbottigliare fra i "treni S" anche perchè è auspicabile che passino a cadenza 15 minuti. Per il turno del materiale non è un problema. Fai un invio a vuoto da Milano a Modena nella tarda serata, torni a Milano entro le 9 e sei pronto al turno MI-RM. Porti 800 pendolari comodamente seduti fino a Milano, poi tornano liberamente con i cadenzati MI-BO. Lo stesso da Chivasso a Milano. Sai quanta gente va in macchina a Milano da Chivasso, Santhià e Vercelli?
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> DAL 30/05/07 COMPARE DEL CHEESEBURGER Â®
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> marco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 15:16
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> lun 29 dic 2003 15:51 Mah, ho molti dubbi sul fatto che un sistema simile possa funzionare, non a livello tecnico ma a livello economico.
> L'ES MI-GE no stop viaggiava semi vuoto (ma aveva orari un pò fallaci).
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> Io mi accontenterei di molto meno e cioè di un rinnovo del materiale rotabile regionale, di un miglior cadenzamento e di un cadenzamento IC/ESC ogni ora tra Mi e Bo.
> Accontenterei il 90% dei clienti con pochi investimenti che andrebbero a beneficio di tutti, anche perchè il guadagno di tempo tra Pc e Mi via AV è di circa 10 minuti, un' inezia.
> Sul fatto che siano 5000 i pendolari che gravitano sulla stazione di PC ma vanno in auto a MI, a parte qualche grosso dubbio sulla cifra, è anche magari perchè sussistono altre variabili come l'uso dell'auto a Mi, la distanza dalla stazione di Pc...che il servizio AV non sarebbe in grado di modificare.
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> Coccodrillo Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 15:58
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> Iscritto il:
> lun 10 mag 2004 19:30
> Località: Ferrovia del Gottardo Cita:
> Ovviamente non li devi imbottigliare fra i "treni S" anche perchè è auspicabile che passino a cadenza 15 minuti.
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> La tratta Rogoredo-Tavazzano è a 4 binari in CC, anche la linea veloce, utilizzabile (anzi utilizzata) quindi anche dai RV.
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> http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/4bin.htm in fondo
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> Addio EuroCity...
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> Tz Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 16:20
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> dom 21 mar 2004 18:20
> Località: sul grande fiume Grande Puffo ha scritto:
> Tz ha scritto:
> Perchè l'obiettivo dell'AV non è quello di servire le stazioni intermedie, che è possibile servirle più che bene sulla linea storica, comunque un treno AV per servire Piacenza perderebbe almeno 15 minuti di percorrenza rimanendo molto meno attrattivo per la gran parte della clientela (che di Piacenza non gli frega niente...) per poi servire una piccola minoranza che da Piacenza avrebbe tante altre soluzioni per raggiungere Milano...
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> Però la "piccola minoranza" sono migliaia e migliaia di persone da PC, alle quali se ne aggiungono altre dalle altre città per cui ci vuole un treno ogni ora che vada da BO a PC in LL e da PC a MI in AV. Si chiama "orario candenzato", niente di strano. L'ideale per il materiale EScity.* Due cambi tensione (come per gli ES che fanno tutto in AV) e normali carrozze da 200 km/h con un qualsiasi locomotore degno dell'anno 2010.*
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> Ma BigPuff, perchè vuoi riprendermi facendo però un caso diverso ? Io mi rifrivo a un treno AV Bo-Mi che esca per servire PC per poi rientrare e sostengo che non ha senso perchè è più la clientela che perderesti col maggior perditempo che quella che guadagneresti a Pc. Tu mi fai il caso di un treno che si fa Bo-Pc sulla LL per poi prendere l'AV dopo Pc e questo mi andrebbe anche bene, bisogna vedere a questo punto quello che guadagni da Pc a Tavazzano in AV se ne vale la pena andarci visto che ci vuole un materiale AV...
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> Alessandro Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 18:00
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> mar 30 ago 2005 12:21
> Località: Genova Cita:
> Secondo me il vero problema è che nessuno vuole dire chi deve pagare i treni dei pendolari, (...)
> Prima di chiedere questo o quell'altro servizio, possiamo mettere in chiaro chi deve pagare? Fino a che non ci sarà chiarezza se il servizio viene pagato direttamente dai pendolari o dallo stato, o dalle regioni (quindi con tasse locali), o da Trenitalia, *tutti questi discorsi sul costo di treni EC, AV, IC, IR e regionali mi sembrano senza senso.*
> Guarda che a a tutti noi è chiarissimo: quei treni li pagano le Regioni per il 65% e i pendoari per il restante 35%. Non si tratta eperaltro solo di tasse locali giacché queste vanno ad integrare un fondo (sulla cui consistenza il dibattito è attuale) trasferito dallo Stato.
> Cos'è che non hai capito?
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> Grande Puffo Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 20:04
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> Iscritto il:
> mer 28 gen 2004 13:06
> Località: Torino / Traves in estate Tz ha scritto:
> bisogna vedere a questo punto quello che guadagni da Pc a Tavazzano in AV se ne vale la pena andarci visto che ci vuole un materiale AV...
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> Materiale AV...
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> *Le E444 sono quasi da museo, il materiale nuovo in commercio è tutto idoneo come minimo ai 200 sotto 25kV, il materiale dovrà arrivare...*
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> DAL 30/05/07 COMPARE DEL CHEESEBURGER Â®
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> chicc0zz0 Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 22:34
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> mar 21 nov 2006 19:27
> Località: Dieppe, Senna Marittima, Alta Normandia, Francia daucus ha scritto:
> chicc0zz0 ha scritto:
> Far arrivare treni AV in stazione prima delle 9???? Ma che scherzi??
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> che sia AVfast o ICslow non cambia: avrebbe sicuramente successo.
> Il problema di farlo entrare in orario invece potrebbe esserci`.
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> Non so se era chiaro che il mio era un intervento leeeeeeggermente ironico
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> Su "www": la mia galleria di treni, viaggi e altro
> Der Weg ist das Ziel - La meta è il viaggio
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> L'utente, come protesta agli aumenti tariffari e alle classificazioni dei treni, ha deciso di utilizzare esclusivamente treni a tariffa Regionale.
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> 80Express Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 23:44
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> Iscritto il:
> dom 27 mar 2005 18:43
> Località: Montegallo (AP) - Albano Laziale (RM) ma quanto vi piacciono i treni no stop in mezzo ai regionali?
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> alcune coppie veloci via Av oltre ad accaparrare nuova clientela liberano spazio o più semplicemente non interagiscono con i treni regionali, basterebbe solo questo...
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> Al ROGO gli IC e gli ES dalla Roma-Formia-Napoli!
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> qalimero Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 0:41
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> Iscritto il:
> sab 27 dic 2003 1:15
> Località: Toscana Opinione personale contestabilissima.
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> Se si tratta di mandare un ESCI da PC a Mi in AV, è meglio che faccia da MO a PC in LL e poi vada in AV evitando di in golfare il traffico regionale dei due nodi.
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> Analogamente, se si volesse immettere dei treni dal basso Piemonte , sarebbe meglio farli andare in LL almeno sino a PR e da lì in AV, saltando MO e RE.
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> Io aspetto comunque che TI tenga fede a quanto dichiara nelle sue "fanzine" aziendali: i merci in AV.
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> OT post natalizio: Augustus, va bene la nuova barra spaziatrice?
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> Ciao Giuseppe
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> dreaad Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 1:57
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> DREEAD(ful) Here is the beast
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> Iscritto il:
> mer 22 dic 2004 22:30
> Località: torino *ragazzi un piccolissimo OT: gli ETR500 con 12 carrozze sono stati testati a 330 km/h per l'omologazione a 300??
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> oppure solo quelli a 8 carrozze sono stati formalmente omologati (come ho letto tempo fa)??
> inoltre, il treno che ha fatto il record su questa linea a 355 km/h è stato l'Y1 con 8 carrozze giusto, non l'Y2 con tre?**
> infine, se per favore vorreste dare un contributo anche voi qui... http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthrea ... 09&page=10
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> mi dà molto fastidio che sto joseph (italiano di origine "pentito" a quanto pare ) spali solo merda sulle nostre AV , che per quanto siano lontane dalla perfezione (visto che il servizio su scala medio/grande è iniziato solo 2 settimane fa) non meritano un trattamento simile.*continua a menarmela che gli ETR500 sono lentissimi (ok, sono più lenti di altri) che andranno sempre e solo a 250 secondo lui (perchè sono lenti), che i TGV sono veloci qui e lì (addirittura i TGV se possono fanno i 330 e oltre sulla LGV med se sono in ritardo), che abbiamo solo 15 coppie sulla mi-bo (SBAGLIATO, ne abbiamo 25 già adesso, mentre gli spagnoli tanto perfetti ne hanno 21 sulla madrid-barcelona COMPLETA e SENZA ERTMS 2) ecc ecc
> *ora, più che dargli ragione nei pochi punti dove ha ragione,riconoscendo che la situazione attuale è migliorabile (e migliorerà visto che il sistema è incompleto), e visto che dice che è un assiduo lettore di questo forum, vi prego di contribuire anche voi nel discorso.**fa tanto il saccente e pensa di essere la voce della verità assoluta (s'attacca pure a questo splendido video su torino realizzato per le olimpiadi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBiL2VLPmFo dicendo che è solo propaganda che neanche mussolini ne sarebbe capace )*
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> I will translate this madrigal dedicated to me as soon as possibile - joseph
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> pendolasco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 7:31
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> THis insted is totally defferent
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> ven 20 gen 2006 22:18 ammazza joseph! sicuramente vivi in Italia, forse lavori alle FS... (*gosh, Joseph , it is sure that you live in Italy and perhaps works for FS)*
> comunque è un po' difficile darti torto (_*However is a bit difficcult saying that you are wrong!)*_
> Pubblicità Trenitalia, in partoclare quella di FSNews: chi osa dire che non è da MinCulPop?
> ...aggiungiamo l'informazione giornalistica ta TG/giornali: non ho mai letto/sentito tante minchiate come nei giorni dell'inaugurazione della MI-BO.
> L'unica trasmissione decente è stata quella di quella stra... della D'Amico e lì Moretti ha fatto un figurone grazie al contraddittorio di 4 pagliacci che sembrava avessero appena finito di farsi la briscola al Bar da Mario.
> Poi mi chiedo... perchè quegli schermi neri sugli ES non trasmettono la velocità del treno? Non sarebbe la migliore pubblicità?
> Come si fa a considerare serio un operatore ferroviario che considera il ritardo solo sopra i 25 minuti?
> Ovvio che l'apertura della TO-NO sia stata solo uno spot, peraltro scadente.
> *Come si fa a non aver ancora completato quei circa 20 Km prima di Napoli da + di 3 anni* *"{How is it possibile that in 3 years, they haven't finished the 20km just before Naples*]?
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> Poi mi sembra inutile stare a disquisire se l'ETR500 ce l'ha + lungo o + grosso del TGV. A me basta sapere che circa 1 volta su 4 che l'ho preso sono rimasto a piedi perchè aveva finito il Viagra
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> 80Express Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 8:26
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> Località: Montegallo (AP) - Albano Laziale (RM) qalimero ha scritto:
> Opinione personale contestabilissima.
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> Se si tratta di mandare un ESCI da PC a Mi in AV, è meglio che faccia da MO a PC in LL e poi vada in AV evitando di in golfare il traffico regionale dei due nodi.
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> esattamente questo intendo.
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> anche se è da precisare che l'evoluzione dei treni e delle abitudini da qui a qualche anno possono cambiare sensibilmente, per cui rimanere legati alle classificazioni e al materiale di oggi non ha alcun senso.
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> *Va a mio avviso ristrutturato da zero l'intero sistema AV e tutto quello che gli gira intorno.* [*In my opinion all the AV system and every spinning around it must be restructured starting from scratches *[I[/I]_________________
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> Al ROGO gli IC e gli ES dalla Roma-Formia-Napoli! [All the ICs and the ES on the Roma-Formia-Napoli must be sent to the STAKE]
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 9:19
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> lun 22 dic 2003 21:09
> Località: Milano & Marotta Mancano e mancheranno almeno per i prossimi 2/3 anni locomotive bitensione con ERMTS installato atte a viaggiare su linee AV al traino degli ESCI o quel che sarà e la carestia di materiale AV o pseudo si farà sempre più sentire!
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> Vogliamo l'eurostar AV Milano-Bologna-Adriatica
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> Indice » Treni reali » I treni e le ferrovie reali
> Tutti gli orari sono UTC +1 ora
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> FOL Milano Bologna AV (3) page 29
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> http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22820&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=420
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> ragazzi un piccolissimo OT: gli ETR500 con 12 carrozze sono stati testati a 330 km/h per l'omologazione a 300??
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> oppure solo quelli a 8 carrozze sono stati formalmente omologati (come ho letto tempo fa)??
> inoltre, il treno che ha fatto il record su questa linea a 355 km/h è stato l'Y1 con 8 carrozze giusto, non l'Y2 con tre?
> 
> infine, se per favore vorreste dare un contributo anche voi qui... http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthrea ... 09&page=10
> 
> mi dà molto fastidio che sto joseph (italiano di origine "pentito" a quanto pare ) spali solo merda sulle nostre AV , che per quanto siano lontane dalla perfezione (visto che il servizio su scala medio/grande è iniziato solo 2 settimane fa) non meritano un trattamento simile.
> 
> continua a menarmela che gli ETR500 sono lentissimi (ok, sono più lenti di altri) che andranno sempre e solo a 250 secondo lui (perchè sono lenti), che i TGV sono veloci qui e lì (addirittura i TGV se possono fanno i 330 e oltre sulla LGV med se sono in ritardo), che abbiamo solo 15 coppie sulla mi-bo (SBAGLIATO, ne abbiamo 25 già adesso, mentre gli spagnoli tanto perfetti ne hanno 21 sulla madrid-barcelona COMPLETA e SENZA ERTMS 2) ecc ecc
> 
> ora, più che dargli ragione nei pochi punti dove ha ragione,riconoscendo che la situazione attuale è migliorabile (e migliorerà visto che il sistema è incompleto), e visto che dice che è un assiduo lettore di questo forum, vi prego di contribuire anche voi nel discorso.
> fa tanto il saccente e pensa di essere la voce della verità assoluta (s'attacca pure a questo splendido video su torino realizzato per le olimpiadi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBiL2VLPmFo dicendo che è solo propaganda che neanche mussolini ne sarebbe capace )
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> pendolasco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 7:31
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> Iscritto il:
> ven 20 gen 2006 22:18 ammazza joseph! sicuramente vivi in Italia, forse lavori alle FS...
> comunque è un po' difficile darti torto
> Pubblicità Trenitalia, in partoclare quella di FSNews: chi osa dire che non è da MinCulPop?
> ...aggiungiamo l'informazione giornalistica ta TG/giornali: non ho mai letto/sentito tante minchiate come nei giorni dell'inaugurazione della MI-BO.
> L'unica trasmissione decente è stata quella di quella stra... della D'Amico e lì Moretti ha fatto un figurone grazie al contraddittorio di 4 pagliacci che sembrava avessero appena finito di farsi la briscola al Bar da Mario.
> Poi mi chiedo... perchè quegli schermi neri sugli ES non trasmettono la velocità del treno? Non sarebbe la migliore pubblicità?
> Come si fa a considerare serio un operatore ferroviario che considera il ritardo solo sopra i 25 minuti?
> Ovvio che l'apertura della TO-NO sia stata solo uno spot, peraltro scadente.
> Come si fa a non aver ancora completato quei circa 20 Km prima di Napoli da + di 3 anni?
> 
> Poi mi sembra inutile stare a disquisire se l'ETR500 ce l'ha + lungo o + grosso del TGV. A me basta sapere che circa 1 volta su 4 che l'ho preso sono rimasto a piedi perchè aveva finito il Viagra
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> 80Express Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 8:26
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> Località: Montegallo (AP) - Albano Laziale (RM) qalimero ha scritto:
> Opinione personale contestabilissima.
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> Se si tratta di mandare un ESCI da PC a Mi in AV, è meglio che faccia da MO a PC in LL e poi vada in AV evitando di in golfare il traffico regionale dei due nodi.
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> esattamente questo intendo.
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> anche se è da precisare che l'evoluzione dei treni e delle abitudini da qui a qualche anno possono cambiare sensibilmente, per cui rimanere legati alle classificazioni e al materiale di oggi non ha alcun senso.
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> Va a mio avviso ristrutturato da zero l'intero sistema AV e tutto quello che gli gira intorno.
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> Al ROGO gli IC e gli ES dalla Roma-Formia-Napoli!
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 9:19
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> lun 22 dic 2003 21:09
> Località: Milano & Marotta Mancano e mancheranno almeno per i prossimi 2/3 anni locomotive bitensione con ERMTS installato atte a viaggiare su linee AV al traino degli ESCI o quel che sarà e la carestia di materiale AV o pseudo si farà sempre più sentire!
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> Vogliamo l'eurostar AV Milano-Bologna-Adriatica
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117727075640
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> FOL MIlano Bologna AV (3) page 30
> http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22820&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=435
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> 80Express Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 9:33
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> Località: Montegallo (AP) - Albano Laziale (RM) e dei nuovi treni ancora siamo alle filosofie, tra un anno la torino-sa av sarà finita e noi staremo ancora a litigarci quei 4 treni politensione che abbiamo...
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> quante sono in totale e 402b?
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> flyairone Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 10:43
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> mar 06 gen 2004 11:47 Ma se dovessero istiuire gli es adriatici da milano cambieranno le ore di partenza degli es fast per per roma visto che partono al minuto 45 ?
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> gbelogi Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 10:46
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> lun 21 ago 2006 18:08
> Località: tra Biassono e Cernusco sul Naviglio, sto traslocando Ma un bel cambio a Bologna fa schifo a tutti? Infilare l'adriatica sull'AV mi sembra pura utopia, con i ritardi su due linee diverse che vengno elevati al quadrato. Matematicamente impossibile.
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 11:14
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> Località: Milano & Marotta gbelogi ha scritto:
> Ma un bel cambio a Bologna fa schifo a tutti? Infilare l'adriatica sull'AV mi sembra pura utopia, con i ritardi su due linee diverse che vengno elevati al quadrato. Matematicamente impossibile.
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> 
> Ma hai mai avuto modo di guardare gli orari attuali delle coincidenze a Bologna? E poi finiamola di parlare sempre di Ritardi, l'attuale collo di bottiglia è il nodo di Bologna e la BO-FI, gli adriatica a Bologna si trovano già in direzione dell'AV quindi non intralciano assolutamente la circolazione come fanno i MI-RM, e l'adriatica è una linea che non soffre di grossi ritardi, a parte quando ci sono problemi extra ferroviari, neve, maltempo, scioperi, investimenti.
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> Vogliamo l'eurostar AV Milano-Bologna-Adriatica
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117727075640
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> marco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 11:19
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> lun 29 dic 2003 15:51 Non mi sembra corretto escludere a priori la possibilità di inserire sull'AV i treni dell'Adriatica solo perchè ipoteticamente arrivano a Bologna in ritardo, considerato anche che non è che sulla linea AV vi saranno dei MI-RM ogni 15 min e che i treni per l'adriatica sono tutto sommato pochi al giorno.
> Quindi io di matematicamente impossibile non ci vedo proprio niente.
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 11:20
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> lun 22 dic 2003 21:09
> Località: Milano & Marotta Poi dimostrami i ritardi dell'adriatica!
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> Vogliamo l'eurostar AV Milano-Bologna-Adriatica
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117727075640
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> pendolasco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 11:46
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> ven 20 gen 2006 22:18 scusate, credo la risposta sia no, ma non ne sono sicuro
> esiste un'interconnessione fra il passante ferroviario AV sotterraneo a BO e la linea Adriatica?
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 12:14
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> lun 22 dic 2003 21:09
> Località: Milano & Marotta No non c'è
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> raildoctor Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 12:22
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> mar 04 set 2007 18:55
> Località: Pavia e dintorni Mi inserisco nella discussione con due considerazioni: se si vuole escludere che i servizi dell'Adriatica utilizzino parzialmente l'AV allora perchè non escludere anche i Venezia ? Usiamo l'AV come "metropolitana veloce" e Bologna diventa il Nodo per il resto d'Italia ! Seconda considerazione sul discorso precedente riguardo Piacenza: con l'attivazione della linea S su Lodi e la velocizzazione dei reg. su Piacenza (non dovendo fermare più tra Rogoredo e Lodi) il problema si risolve comodamente; certo che un cadenzamento completo, il materiale performante e pulito non guasterebbero ma forse, oggi, sarebbe chiedere troppo ..........
> Saluti.
> Raildoctor
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 13:23
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> Località: Milano & Marotta un treno ogni 15 minuti nell'arco dell'intera giornata tra Milano e Roma sarebbe un disatro totale per i Load Factor
> sarebbe opportuno avere nelle singole tratte (MI-BO BO-FI RM-NA) un treno ogni 15/20/30 minuti con o/d differenti all'interno del cadenzamento che diventa integrato tra le varie linee forse l'unica linea che avrà un cadenzamento tra le 2 città di un treno ogni 15 minuti sarà la Bologna Firenze Roma
> per le altre linee non riesco a vederlo, nelle ore di punta ok ma dalle 6 alle 21 dubito fortemente
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> Vogliamo l'eurostar AV Milano-Bologna-Adriatica
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117727075640
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> 80Express Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 15:12
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> Località: Montegallo (AP) - Albano Laziale (RM) gbelogi ha scritto:
> Ma un bel cambio a Bologna fa schifo a tutti? Infilare l'adriatica sull'AV mi sembra pura utopia, con i ritardi su due linee diverse che vengno elevati al quadrato. Matematicamente impossibile.
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> Ma quale cambio...
> Con una linea che tiene senza problema 5-6 treni/ora pure i cambi?
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> Al ROGO gli IC e gli ES dalla Roma-Formia-Napoli!
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> qalimero Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 16:02
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> sab 27 dic 2003 1:15
> Località: Toscana Mah, mi pare che i timori sulla compatibiità dei treni da una linea non Av conl'Av vengano esaltati oltre il limite.
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> A parte il fatto che occorre andare versouna affidabilità e puntualità maggiori, il problema di un ritardo è pesante nel casodi eterotachicità,altrimenti lo è molto meno.
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> Piuttosto è da verificare se è il caso di pensare, in caso di maggiore frequenza a treni meno pesanti, p.e. ridurre la composizione dei 500 destinati ad alcuni servizi per dar loro più brio.
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> dreaad Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 16:09
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> mer 22 dic 2004 22:30
> Località: torino pendolasco ha scritto:
> *ammazza joseph! sicuramente vivi in Italia, forse lavori alle FS...
> comunque è un po' difficile darti torto *Pubblicità Trenitalia, in partoclare quella di FSNews: chi osa dire che non è da MinCulPop?
> ...aggiungiamo l'informazione giornalistica ta TG/giornali: non ho mai letto/sentito tante minchiate come nei giorni dell'inaugurazione della MI-BO.
> L'unica trasmissione decente è stata quella di quella stra... della D'Amico e lì Moretti ha fatto un figurone grazie al contraddittorio di 4 pagliacci che sembrava avessero appena finito di farsi la briscola al Bar da Mario.
> Poi mi chiedo... perchè quegli schermi neri sugli ES non trasmettono la velocità del treno? Non sarebbe la migliore pubblicità?
> 
> *But alking about Trenitalia he said some he denies hin this forum:*
> *
> Come si fa a considerare serio un operatore ferroviario che considera il ritardo solo sopra i 25 minuti?
> Ovvio che l'apertura della TO-NO sia stata solo uno spot, peraltro scadente.
> Come si fa a non aver ancora completato quei circa 20 Km prima di Napoli da + di 3 anni?*Poi mi sembra inutile stare a disquisire se l'ETR500 ce l'ha + lungo o + grosso del TGV. A me basta sapere che circa 1 volta su 4 che l'ho preso sono rimasto a piedi perchè aveva finito il Viagra
> *no il tipo vive in UK da 28 anni.prima negli USA.
> cmq non ho negato gli evidenti limiti dell'attuale gestione.
> per quanto non sia ottimale la gestione attuale dell'AV (come se i francesi non abbiano avuto problemi nei primi anni '80 e gli spagnoli non hanno ancora l'ERTMS level 2), non è tutto uno schifo da buttare affatto.
> solo che questo continua a parlare come se io dicessi sempre che la situazione è ottima e sono le altre nazioni a dover correre dietro di noi e non il contrario.
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> e mi accusa di DISINFORMAZIONE verso i forumer stranieri.*
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> qalimero Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 22:50
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> sab 27 dic 2003 1:15
> Località: Toscana verremo sul forum delle città grattacielo (che risponde alle iscrizioni come un disseminatore di due dipicche) e discuteremo...
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> E800 Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 23:01
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> gio 22 dic 2005 22:54 pendolasco ha scritto:
> Come si fa a considerare serio un operatore ferroviario che considera il ritardo solo sopra i 25 minuti?
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> all'estero la soglia è 1h. Prova a chiedere ad Eurostar (quello vero) e poi mi dici... Nonostante questo considero Eurostar un operatore molto serio.
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> chiuso OT
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> Indice » Treni reali » I treni e le ferrovie reali
> Tutti gli orari sono UTC +1 ora
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> Chi c’è in linea
> Visitano il forum: etr220, GabryJ84, greenant, lelis e 8 ospiti
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> FOL: Milano-Bologna AV (3) page 31
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> parere personale: il ritardo accettabile può variare da 1 a 5' per un servizio locale e da 1 a 15 per la LP > 2h30.
> la variazione tra minimo e massimo dipende se eventuali servizi in coincidenza (compreso il servizio urbano) ti attendono o no.
> se non attendono un minuto è il massimo, se ti attendono (o comunque hai un altro servizio che ti porti a destinazione in modo che alla fine il ritardo complessivo rientri nella soglia) il massimo è 5 o 15.
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> Il presente messaggio e` stato scritto in lingua toscana.
> coloro che ignorano le "finezze" di tale lingua sono pregati dall'astenersi dal fare considerazioni sul significato delle parole, che potrebbe essere diverso da quello delle altre lingue.
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> gbelogi Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: dom 28 dic 2008 12:08
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> lun 21 ago 2006 18:08
> Località: tra Biassono e Cernusco sul Naviglio, sto traslocando Vorrei sapere se siamo d'accordo su alcuni punti:
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> 1-Il materiale rotabile AV è molto limitato.
> 2-Il nodo di Bologna, prima dell'apertura delle nuova stazione nel 201? è estremamente limitato, sia per la gestione dei treni che per il cambio treno, visto che ha sottopassaggi degni di un paesino, e non di un nodo nevralgico.
> 3-La Milano-Bologna ha una enorme capacità potenziale, che attualmente non è possibile sfruttare (vedi punto 1 e 2) ma che sarà possibile sfruttare nel lungo periodo, deo gratia, con enormi vantaggi per tutto il paese.
> 4-La conseguenza ovvia del punto 1 è che attualmente utilizzare materiale gli ETR 500 fuori dalla tratta Milano-Bologna-Firenze-Roma-Napoli è impensabile.
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> Riusciamo a raggiungere un consenso su questi quattro punti per proseguire la discussione con chiarezza?
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> chicc0zz0 Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: dom 28 dic 2008 12:52
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> mar 21 nov 2006 19:27
> Località: Dieppe, Senna Marittima, Alta Normandia, Francia 1. ok, ma non solo, penso: si dovrebbero rendere più efficienti i turni del materiale, abbinando mettiamo tre convogli di scorta (1 MI, 1 FI e 1 RM) a tracce strette, perché avendo questi treni che ti arrivano 10 minuti in anticipo e occupano il binario scassi tutto.. meglio che abbiano tracce strette e sostano relativamente poco sul marciapiede delle stazioni di testa, e poi ripartono. Se succedere il casino e fa più di 40 minuti di ritardo, mandi il materiale di scorta.
> 2. mi astengo
> 3. beh, se è 201x direi medio periodo piuttosto che lungo. I benefici si avranno se si metterà mano al trasporto regionale pensandolo tra l'altro come il modo per portare la gente sull'AV. Si potrebbe pensare per esempio di rendere gratuito il viaggio di collegamento in regionale origine-stazione av1 e stazioneav2-destino (entro certi limiti chiloemtrici, 50km per esempio..)
> 
> Finché si penserà che la gente arriva all'AV in macchina, con il taxi ecc. non ci saranno reali benefici e sarà di fatto il sostituto dell'aereo mentre chi viaggia sui convogli del trasporto regionale continuerà a bestemmiare (o a passare all'auto) per ritardi, velocità medie da cicloamatore, treni pessimi (non capisco ancora come sia possibile far viaggiare PR Farini, 2p non revamp e compagnia.. quelle stanno bene sulla jonica per il piacere di exp826)
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> L'utente, come protesta agli aumenti tariffari e alle classificazioni dei treni, ha deciso di utilizzare esclusivamente treni a tariffa Regionale.
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: dom 28 dic 2008 13:28
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> Località: Milano & Marotta 1-Ottimizzazione dei turni e materiale consono alla linea
> 2-Si istiuiscono treni con minor tracciato ad X a parte gli AV ad esempio i RV Milano-Parma e Piacenza Ancona diventano Milano-Bologna e Bologna-Ancona, si eviterebbe 2 volte l'ora l'attraversamento ad X del fascio binari migliorando la puntualità
> 3-volere è potere già adesso ci sono delle grandi pecche, vedi il primo AV in arrivo a Milano da Bologna alle 9.29
> 4-come già detto e stradetto su questo forum attualmente gli ETR500 sono sottoutilizzati su 59 sono in servizio una trentina, qualcuno ha i turni alla mano?
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> Vogliamo l'eurostar AV Milano-Bologna-Adriatica
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## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> I wrote always the truth, admitting the current limits of italian railway and it needs improvements so i haven't to apologize with anybody.
> you used this forum as your back garden writing many lies to discredit italian infrastructure... YOU have to apologize to the other forumers, not the opposite.
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> yes because, to sum up, this is what you've written (with false examples, upon which i replied with the correct info).
> on the contrary, i wrote that these trains have worse performance compared to some others, not that they are perfect.
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> 
> again, YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO READ. and you discredit me like past times.
> I know for certain that only ETR500 with 8 carriages were tested @ 330 km/h (in fact i wrote this in this forum).
> I asked in FOL forum if *also *ETR500 *with 12 carriages* were tested @ 330km/h (i think not, but i was unsecure).
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> DON'T CHANGE WHAT I'VE WRITTEN.
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> Reply:
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> This was you have written, remember the law on liable.
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> From FOL
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> FOL AV Milan –Bologna (3) 27-12-08 page 29 -1
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> http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22820&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=420
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> Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Moderatore: Redazione
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> marco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 14:33
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> lun 29 dic 2003 15:51 Grande Puffo ha scritto:
> Per i treni IC di oggi che vanno in LL e restano incastrati fra i regionali mi sembra un furto
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> Allora tutti i treni a tariffa IC/ESC sono un furto dato che viaggiano su linee dove passano reg e merci, e allora?????
> 10 euro al mese sono 0,50 cent al giorno, 0,25 cent a viaggio, per treni il cui biglietto a tariffa piena è quasi il doppio di un regionale.
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> E poi, per favore, basta con sta storia degli IR del 2005. Ci sono ancora, tanti quanti come prima, MI-PR e PC-AN e questo ai pendolari di PC non reca una presunta scomodità.
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> Il vero problema si è manifestato a Giugno 2008 con la soppressione di numerosi IC Mi-Fi.
> Questo è stato il vero problema.
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> Per quanto concerne il servizio "pendolari AV", entrare e uscire dalla LL genera perditempo che fanno perdere il guadagno in termini di percorrenza.
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> Basterebbe ripristinare un servizio cadenzato orario IC/ESC dorsale/adriatica tra MI e BO....senza progettare chissà quali servizi!
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> gbelogi Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 15:02
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> lun 21 ago 2006 18:08
> Località: tra Biassono e Cernusco sul Naviglio, sto traslocando Secondo me il vero problema è che nessuno vuole dire chi deve pagare i treni dei pendolari, sia che siano lenti e sporchi che veloci e puliti.
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> Prima di chiedere questo o quell'altro servizio, possiamo mettere in chiaro chi deve pagare? Fino a che non ci sarà chiarezza se il servizio viene pagato direttamente dai pendolari o dallo stato, o dalle regioni (quindi con tasse locali), o da Trenitalia, tutti questi discorsi sul costo di treni EC, AV, IC, IR e regionali mi sembrano senza senso.
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> Alla fine, mi sembra che il tanto vituperato Moretti potrebbe avere più ragione di tutte le altre parti in causa, che si lamentano, si lamentano *ma che poi non vogliono mai aprire il portafogli, costringendo Trenitalia a introdurre aumenti "travestiti" (vedi gli ESCI e gli ICPLUS) e a prendersi tutte le colpe. Troppo comodo, soprattutto per i politici locali.*
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> Grande Puffo Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 15:05
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> Iscritto il:
> mer 28 gen 2004 13:06
> Località: Torino / Traves in estate marco ha scritto:
> Grande Puffo ha scritto:
> Per i treni IC di oggi che vanno in LL e restano incastrati fra i regionali mi sembra un furto
> Per quanto concerne il servizio "pendolari AV", entrare e uscire dalla LL genera perditempo che fanno perdere il guadagno in termini di percorrenza.
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> Basterebbe ripristinare un servizio cadenzato orario IC/ESC dorsale/adriatica tra MI e BO....senza progettare chissà quali servizi!
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> *I produttori di automobili ringraziano.*
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> Secondo te uno di Piacenza che lavori a Milano deve tornare a Piacenza con l'ultimo Milano-Bari o con il successivo Milano-Pescara?
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> Entrare ed uscire genera perditempo per cui non si deve fare, si va in AV da MI a PC ed in LL da PC a BO, così si evitano circolazioni pesantemente eterotachiche in LL da MI a PC. Al limite se è necessario si torna in AV da MO a BO, sono pochi km ma evitano interferenze con il servizio urbano di BO. Fai due righe di conti, è più eterotachico *un EScity impostato ai 200 *in AV in mezzo agli ES impostati ai 300 od un EScity impostato ai 180 il LL in mezzo ai regionali con fermata in tutte le stazioni?
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> Si diceva che 5.000 pendolari vanno in macchina tutti i giorni da PC a MI. Non credo che sia perchè il 10 Euro di "carta IC" sono troppi. Probabilmente se gli offri al triplo del prezzo di oggi un parcheggio alla stazione, un posto fisso prenotato su un ETR che faccia Piacenza-Rogoredo-Centrale ed un ritorno "open" riempi il parcheggio di Audi, Mercedes e BMW. Ovviamente non li devi imbottigliare fra i "treni S" anche perchè è auspicabile che passino a cadenza 15 minuti. Per il turno del materiale non è un problema. Fai un invio a vuoto da Milano a Modena nella tarda serata, torni a Milano entro le 9 e sei pronto al turno MI-RM. Porti 800 pendolari comodamente seduti fino a Milano, poi tornano liberamente con i cadenzati MI-BO. Lo stesso da Chivasso a Milano. Sai quanta gente va in macchina a Milano da Chivasso, Santhià e Vercelli?
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> DAL 30/05/07 COMPARE DEL CHEESEBURGER Â®
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> marco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 15:16
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> lun 29 dic 2003 15:51 Mah, ho molti dubbi sul fatto che un sistema simile possa funzionare, non a livello tecnico ma a livello economico.
> L'ES MI-GE no stop viaggiava semi vuoto (ma aveva orari un pò fallaci).
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> Io mi accontenterei di molto meno e cioè di un rinnovo del materiale rotabile regionale, di un miglior cadenzamento e di un cadenzamento IC/ESC ogni ora tra Mi e Bo.
> Accontenterei il 90% dei clienti con pochi investimenti che andrebbero a beneficio di tutti, anche perchè il guadagno di tempo tra Pc e Mi via AV è di circa 10 minuti, un' inezia.
> Sul fatto che siano 5000 i pendolari che gravitano sulla stazione di PC ma vanno in auto a MI, a parte qualche grosso dubbio sulla cifra, è anche magari perchè sussistono altre variabili come l'uso dell'auto a Mi, la distanza dalla stazione di Pc...che il servizio AV non sarebbe in grado di modificare.
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> Coccodrillo Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 15:58
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> Iscritto il:
> lun 10 mag 2004 19:30
> Località: Ferrovia del Gottardo Cita:
> Ovviamente non li devi imbottigliare fra i "treni S" anche perchè è auspicabile che passino a cadenza 15 minuti.
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> La tratta Rogoredo-Tavazzano è a 4 binari in CC, anche la linea veloce, utilizzabile (anzi utilizzata) quindi anche dai RV.
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> http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/4bin.htm in fondo
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> Addio EuroCity...
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> Tz Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 16:20
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> dom 21 mar 2004 18:20
> Località: sul grande fiume Grande Puffo ha scritto:
> Tz ha scritto:
> Perchè l'obiettivo dell'AV non è quello di servire le stazioni intermedie, che è possibile servirle più che bene sulla linea storica, comunque un treno AV per servire Piacenza perderebbe almeno 15 minuti di percorrenza rimanendo molto meno attrattivo per la gran parte della clientela (che di Piacenza non gli frega niente...) per poi servire una piccola minoranza che da Piacenza avrebbe tante altre soluzioni per raggiungere Milano...
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> Però la "piccola minoranza" sono migliaia e migliaia di persone da PC, alle quali se ne aggiungono altre dalle altre città per cui ci vuole un treno ogni ora che vada da BO a PC in LL e da PC a MI in AV. Si chiama "orario candenzato", niente di strano. L'ideale per il materiale EScity.* Due cambi tensione (come per gli ES che fanno tutto in AV) e normali carrozze da 200 km/h con un qualsiasi locomotore degno dell'anno 2010.*
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> Ma BigPuff, perchè vuoi riprendermi facendo però un caso diverso ? Io mi rifrivo a un treno AV Bo-Mi che esca per servire PC per poi rientrare e sostengo che non ha senso perchè è più la clientela che perderesti col maggior perditempo che quella che guadagneresti a Pc. Tu mi fai il caso di un treno che si fa Bo-Pc sulla LL per poi prendere l'AV dopo Pc e questo mi andrebbe anche bene, bisogna vedere a questo punto quello che guadagni da Pc a Tavazzano in AV se ne vale la pena andarci visto che ci vuole un materiale AV...
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> Alessandro Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 18:00
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> Iscritto il:
> mar 30 ago 2005 12:21
> Località: Genova Cita:
> Secondo me il vero problema è che nessuno vuole dire chi deve pagare i treni dei pendolari, (...)
> Prima di chiedere questo o quell'altro servizio, possiamo mettere in chiaro chi deve pagare? Fino a che non ci sarà chiarezza se il servizio viene pagato direttamente dai pendolari o dallo stato, o dalle regioni (quindi con tasse locali), o da Trenitalia, *tutti questi discorsi sul costo di treni EC, AV, IC, IR e regionali mi sembrano senza senso.*
> Guarda che a a tutti noi è chiarissimo: quei treni li pagano le Regioni per il 65% e i pendoari per il restante 35%. Non si tratta eperaltro solo di tasse locali giacché queste vanno ad integrare un fondo (sulla cui consistenza il dibattito è attuale) trasferito dallo Stato.
> Cos'è che non hai capito?
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> Grande Puffo Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 20:04
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> Iscritto il:
> mer 28 gen 2004 13:06
> Località: Torino / Traves in estate Tz ha scritto:
> bisogna vedere a questo punto quello che guadagni da Pc a Tavazzano in AV se ne vale la pena andarci visto che ci vuole un materiale AV...
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> Materiale AV...
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> *Le E444 sono quasi da museo, il materiale nuovo in commercio è tutto idoneo come minimo ai 200 sotto 25kV, il materiale dovrà arrivare...*
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> DAL 30/05/07 COMPARE DEL CHEESEBURGER Â®
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> chicc0zz0 Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 22:34
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> mar 21 nov 2006 19:27
> Località: Dieppe, Senna Marittima, Alta Normandia, Francia daucus ha scritto:
> chicc0zz0 ha scritto:
> Far arrivare treni AV in stazione prima delle 9???? Ma che scherzi??
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> che sia AVfast o ICslow non cambia: avrebbe sicuramente successo.
> Il problema di farlo entrare in orario invece potrebbe esserci`.
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> Non so se era chiaro che il mio era un intervento leeeeeeggermente ironico
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> Su "www": la mia galleria di treni, viaggi e altro
> Der Weg ist das Ziel - La meta è il viaggio
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> L'utente, come protesta agli aumenti tariffari e alle classificazioni dei treni, ha deciso di utilizzare esclusivamente treni a tariffa Regionale.
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> 80Express Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: ven 26 dic 2008 23:44
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> Iscritto il:
> dom 27 mar 2005 18:43
> Località: Montegallo (AP) - Albano Laziale (RM) ma quanto vi piacciono i treni no stop in mezzo ai regionali?
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> alcune coppie veloci via Av oltre ad accaparrare nuova clientela liberano spazio o più semplicemente non interagiscono con i treni regionali, basterebbe solo questo...
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> Al ROGO gli IC e gli ES dalla Roma-Formia-Napoli!
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> qalimero Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 0:41
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> Iscritto il:
> sab 27 dic 2003 1:15
> Località: Toscana Opinione personale contestabilissima.
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> Se si tratta di mandare un ESCI da PC a Mi in AV, è meglio che faccia da MO a PC in LL e poi vada in AV evitando di in golfare il traffico regionale dei due nodi.
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> Analogamente, se si volesse immettere dei treni dal basso Piemonte , sarebbe meglio farli andare in LL almeno sino a PR e da lì in AV, saltando MO e RE.
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> Io aspetto comunque che TI tenga fede a quanto dichiara nelle sue "fanzine" aziendali: i merci in AV.
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> OT post natalizio: Augustus, va bene la nuova barra spaziatrice?
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> Ciao Giuseppe
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> dreaad Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 1:57
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> DREEAD(ful) Here is the beast
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> mer 22 dic 2004 22:30
> Località: torino *ragazzi un piccolissimo OT: gli ETR500 con 12 carrozze sono stati testati a 330 km/h per l'omologazione a 300??
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> oppure solo quelli a 8 carrozze sono stati formalmente omologati (come ho letto tempo fa)??
> inoltre, il treno che ha fatto il record su questa linea a 355 km/h è stato l'Y1 con 8 carrozze giusto, non l'Y2 con tre?**
> infine, se per favore vorreste dare un contributo anche voi qui... http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthrea ... 09&page=10
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> mi dà molto fastidio che sto joseph (italiano di origine "pentito" a quanto pare ) spali solo merda sulle nostre AV , che per quanto siano lontane dalla perfezione (visto che il servizio su scala medio/grande è iniziato solo 2 settimane fa) non meritano un trattamento simile.*continua a menarmela che gli ETR500 sono lentissimi (ok, sono più lenti di altri) che andranno sempre e solo a 250 secondo lui (perchè sono lenti), che i TGV sono veloci qui e lì (addirittura i TGV se possono fanno i 330 e oltre sulla LGV med se sono in ritardo), che abbiamo solo 15 coppie sulla mi-bo (SBAGLIATO, ne abbiamo 25 già adesso, mentre gli spagnoli tanto perfetti ne hanno 21 sulla madrid-barcelona COMPLETA e SENZA ERTMS 2) ecc ecc
> *ora, più che dargli ragione nei pochi punti dove ha ragione,riconoscendo che la situazione attuale è migliorabile (e migliorerà visto che il sistema è incompleto), e visto che dice che è un assiduo lettore di questo forum, vi prego di contribuire anche voi nel discorso.**fa tanto il saccente e pensa di essere la voce della verità assoluta (s'attacca pure a questo splendido video su torino realizzato per le olimpiadi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBiL2VLPmFo dicendo che è solo propaganda che neanche mussolini ne sarebbe capace )*
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> I will translate this madrigal dedicated to me as soon as possibile - joseph
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> pendolasco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 7:31
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> THis insted is totally defferent
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> ven 20 gen 2006 22:18 ammazza joseph! sicuramente vivi in Italia, forse lavori alle FS... (*gosh, Joseph , it is sure that you live in Italy and perhaps works for FS)*
> comunque è un po' difficile darti torto (_*However is a bit difficcult saying that you are wrong!)*_
> Pubblicità Trenitalia, in partoclare quella di FSNews: chi osa dire che non è da MinCulPop?
> ...aggiungiamo l'informazione giornalistica ta TG/giornali: non ho mai letto/sentito tante minchiate come nei giorni dell'inaugurazione della MI-BO.
> L'unica trasmissione decente è stata quella di quella stra... della D'Amico e lì Moretti ha fatto un figurone grazie al contraddittorio di 4 pagliacci che sembrava avessero appena finito di farsi la briscola al Bar da Mario.
> Poi mi chiedo... perchè quegli schermi neri sugli ES non trasmettono la velocità del treno? Non sarebbe la migliore pubblicità?
> Come si fa a considerare serio un operatore ferroviario che considera il ritardo solo sopra i 25 minuti?
> Ovvio che l'apertura della TO-NO sia stata solo uno spot, peraltro scadente.
> *Come si fa a non aver ancora completato quei circa 20 Km prima di Napoli da + di 3 anni* *"{How is it possibile that in 3 years, they haven't finished the 20km just before Naples*]?
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> Poi mi sembra inutile stare a disquisire se l'ETR500 ce l'ha + lungo o + grosso del TGV. A me basta sapere che circa 1 volta su 4 che l'ho preso sono rimasto a piedi perchè aveva finito il Viagra
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> 80Express Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 8:26
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> Iscritto il:
> dom 27 mar 2005 18:43
> Località: Montegallo (AP) - Albano Laziale (RM) qalimero ha scritto:
> Opinione personale contestabilissima.
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> Se si tratta di mandare un ESCI da PC a Mi in AV, è meglio che faccia da MO a PC in LL e poi vada in AV evitando di in golfare il traffico regionale dei due nodi.
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> esattamente questo intendo.
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> anche se è da precisare che l'evoluzione dei treni e delle abitudini da qui a qualche anno possono cambiare sensibilmente, per cui rimanere legati alle classificazioni e al materiale di oggi non ha alcun senso.
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> *Va a mio avviso ristrutturato da zero l'intero sistema AV e tutto quello che gli gira intorno.* [*In my opinion all the AV system and every spinning around it must be restructured starting from scratches *[I[/I]_________________
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> Al ROGO gli IC e gli ES dalla Roma-Formia-Napoli! [All the ICs and the ES on the Roma-Formia-Napoli must be sent to the STAKE]
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 9:19
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> lun 22 dic 2003 21:09
> Località: Milano & Marotta Mancano e mancheranno almeno per i prossimi 2/3 anni locomotive bitensione con ERMTS installato atte a viaggiare su linee AV al traino degli ESCI o quel che sarà e la carestia di materiale AV o pseudo si farà sempre più sentire!
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> Vogliamo l'eurostar AV Milano-Bologna-Adriatica
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117727075640
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> Indice » Treni reali » I treni e le ferrovie reali
> Tutti gli orari sono UTC +1 ora
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> FOL Milano Bologna AV (3) page 29
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> http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22820&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=420
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> ragazzi un piccolissimo OT: gli ETR500 con 12 carrozze sono stati testati a 330 km/h per l'omologazione a 300??
> 
> oppure solo quelli a 8 carrozze sono stati formalmente omologati (come ho letto tempo fa)??
> inoltre, il treno che ha fatto il record su questa linea a 355 km/h è stato l'Y1 con 8 carrozze giusto, non l'Y2 con tre?
> 
> infine, se per favore vorreste dare un contributo anche voi qui... http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthrea ... 09&page=10
> 
> *mi dà molto fastidio che sto joseph (italiano di origine "pentito" a quanto pare ) spali solo merda sulle nostre AV , che per quanto siano lontane dalla perfezione (visto che il servizio su scala medio/grande è iniziato solo 2 settimane fa) non meritano un trattamento simile*.
> 
> *continua a menarmela che gli ETR500 sono lentissimi (ok, sono più lenti di altri) che andranno sempre e solo a 250 secondo lui (perchè sono lenti), che i TGV sono veloci qui e lì (addirittura i TGV se possono fanno i 330 e oltre sulla LGV med se sono in ritardo), che abbiamo solo 15 coppie sulla mi-bo (SBAGLIATO, ne abbiamo 25 già adesso, mentre gli spagnoli tanto perfetti ne hanno 21 sulla madrid-barcelona COMPLETA e SENZA ERTMS 2) ecc ecc*
> ora, più che dargli ragione nei pochi punti dove ha ragione,riconoscendo che la situazione attuale è migliorabile (e migliorerà visto che il sistema è incompleto), e visto che dice che è un assiduo lettore di questo forum, vi prego di contribuire anche voi nel discorso.
> _fa tanto il saccente e pensa di essere la voce della verità assoluta _(s'attacca pure a questo splendido video su torino realizzato per le olimpiadi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBiL2VLPmFo dicendo che è solo propaganda che neanche mussolini ne sarebbe capace )
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> pendolasco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 7:31
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> ^_^
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> Iscritto il:
> ven 20 gen 2006 22:18 ammazza joseph! sicuramente vivi in Italia, forse lavori alle FS...
> comunque è un po' difficile darti torto
> Pubblicità Trenitalia, in partoclare quella di FSNews: chi osa dire che non è da MinCulPop?
> ...aggiungiamo l'informazione giornalistica ta TG/giornali: non ho mai letto/sentito tante minchiate come nei giorni dell'inaugurazione della MI-BO.
> L'unica trasmissione decente è stata quella di quella stra... della D'Amico e lì Moretti ha fatto un figurone grazie al contraddittorio di 4 pagliacci che sembrava avessero appena finito di farsi la briscola al Bar da Mario.
> Poi mi chiedo... perchè quegli schermi neri sugli ES non trasmettono la velocità del treno? Non sarebbe la migliore pubblicità?
> Come si fa a considerare serio un operatore ferroviario che considera il ritardo solo sopra i 25 minuti?
> Ovvio che l'apertura della TO-NO sia stata solo uno spot, peraltro scadente.
> Come si fa a non aver ancora completato quei circa 20 Km prima di Napoli da + di 3 anni?
> 
> Poi mi sembra inutile stare a disquisire se l'ETR500 ce l'ha + lungo o + grosso del TGV. A me basta sapere che circa 1 volta su 4 che l'ho preso sono rimasto a piedi perchè aveva finito il Viagra
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> 80Express Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 8:26
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> Iscritto il:
> dom 27 mar 2005 18:43
> Località: Montegallo (AP) - Albano Laziale (RM) qalimero ha scritto:
> Opinione personale contestabilissima.
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> Se si tratta di mandare un ESCI da PC a Mi in AV, è meglio che faccia da MO a PC in LL e poi vada in AV evitando di in golfare il traffico regionale dei due nodi.
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> esattamente questo intendo.
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> anche se è da precisare che l'evoluzione dei treni e delle abitudini da qui a qualche anno possono cambiare sensibilmente, per cui rimanere legati alle classificazioni e al materiale di oggi non ha alcun senso.
> 
> Va a mio avviso ristrutturato da zero l'intero sistema AV e tutto quello che gli gira intorno.
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> _________________
> Al ROGO gli IC e gli ES dalla Roma-Formia-Napoli!
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 9:19
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> lun 22 dic 2003 21:09
> Località: Milano & Marotta Mancano e mancheranno almeno per i prossimi 2/3 anni locomotive bitensione con ERMTS installato atte a viaggiare su linee AV al traino degli ESCI o quel che sarà e la carestia di materiale AV o pseudo si farà sempre più sentire!
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> _________________
> Vogliamo l'eurostar AV Milano-Bologna-Adriatica
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117727075640
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> FOL MIlano Bologna AV (3) page 30
> http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22820&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=435
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> Precedente | Successivo
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> Autore	Messaggio
> 80Express Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 9:33
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> Località: Montegallo (AP) - Albano Laziale (RM) e dei nuovi treni ancora siamo alle filosofie, tra un anno la torino-sa av sarà finita e noi staremo ancora a litigarci quei 4 treni politensione che abbiamo...
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> quante sono in totale e 402b?
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> Al ROGO gli IC e gli ES dalla Roma-Formia-Napoli!
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> flyairone Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 10:43
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> mar 06 gen 2004 11:47 Ma se dovessero istiuire gli es adriatici da milano cambieranno le ore di partenza degli es fast per per roma visto che partono al minuto 45 ?
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> gbelogi Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 10:46
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> Iscritto il:
> lun 21 ago 2006 18:08
> Località: tra Biassono e Cernusco sul Naviglio, sto traslocando Ma un bel cambio a Bologna fa schifo a tutti? Infilare l'adriatica sull'AV mi sembra pura utopia, con i ritardi su due linee diverse che vengno elevati al quadrato. Matematicamente impossibile.
> 
> _________________
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 11:14
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> Località: Milano & Marotta gbelogi ha scritto:
> Ma un bel cambio a Bologna fa schifo a tutti? Infilare l'adriatica sull'AV mi sembra pura utopia, con i ritardi su due linee diverse che vengno elevati al quadrato. Matematicamente impossibile.
> 
> 
> Ma hai mai avuto modo di guardare gli orari attuali delle coincidenze a Bologna? E poi finiamola di parlare sempre di Ritardi, l'attuale collo di bottiglia è il nodo di Bologna e la BO-FI, gli adriatica a Bologna si trovano già in direzione dell'AV quindi non intralciano assolutamente la circolazione come fanno i MI-RM, e l'adriatica è una linea che non soffre di grossi ritardi, a parte quando ci sono problemi extra ferroviari, neve, maltempo, scioperi, investimenti.
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> _________________
> Vogliamo l'eurostar AV Milano-Bologna-Adriatica
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117727075640
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> marco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 11:19
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> lun 29 dic 2003 15:51 Non mi sembra corretto escludere a priori la possibilità di inserire sull'AV i treni dell'Adriatica solo perchè ipoteticamente arrivano a Bologna in ritardo, considerato anche che non è che sulla linea AV vi saranno dei MI-RM ogni 15 min e che i treni per l'adriatica sono tutto sommato pochi al giorno.
> Quindi io di matematicamente impossibile non ci vedo proprio niente.
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 11:20
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> lun 22 dic 2003 21:09
> Località: Milano & Marotta Poi dimostrami i ritardi dell'adriatica!
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> Vogliamo l'eurostar AV Milano-Bologna-Adriatica
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117727075640
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> pendolasco Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 11:46
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> ^_^
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> Iscritto il:
> ven 20 gen 2006 22:18 scusate, credo la risposta sia no, ma non ne sono sicuro
> esiste un'interconnessione fra il passante ferroviario AV sotterraneo a BO e la linea Adriatica?
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 12:14
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> lun 22 dic 2003 21:09
> Località: Milano & Marotta No non c'è
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> Vogliamo l'eurostar AV Milano-Bologna-Adriatica
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117727075640
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> raildoctor Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 12:22
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> Iscritto il:
> mar 04 set 2007 18:55
> Località: Pavia e dintorni Mi inserisco nella discussione con due considerazioni: se si vuole escludere che i servizi dell'Adriatica utilizzino parzialmente l'AV allora perchè non escludere anche i Venezia ? Usiamo l'AV come "metropolitana veloce" e Bologna diventa il Nodo per il resto d'Italia ! Seconda considerazione sul discorso precedente riguardo Piacenza: con l'attivazione della linea S su Lodi e la velocizzazione dei reg. su Piacenza (non dovendo fermare più tra Rogoredo e Lodi) il problema si risolve comodamente; certo che un cadenzamento completo, il materiale performante e pulito non guasterebbero ma forse, oggi, sarebbe chiedere troppo ..........
> Saluti.
> Raildoctor
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 13:23
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> lun 22 dic 2003 21:09
> Località: Milano & Marotta un treno ogni 15 minuti nell'arco dell'intera giornata tra Milano e Roma sarebbe un disatro totale per i Load Factor
> sarebbe opportuno avere nelle singole tratte (MI-BO BO-FI RM-NA) un treno ogni 15/20/30 minuti con o/d differenti all'interno del cadenzamento che diventa integrato tra le varie linee forse l'unica linea che avrà un cadenzamento tra le 2 città di un treno ogni 15 minuti sarà la Bologna Firenze Roma
> per le altre linee non riesco a vederlo, nelle ore di punta ok ma dalle 6 alle 21 dubito fortemente
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> _________________
> Vogliamo l'eurostar AV Milano-Bologna-Adriatica
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117727075640
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> 80Express Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 15:12
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> Località: Montegallo (AP) - Albano Laziale (RM) gbelogi ha scritto:
> Ma un bel cambio a Bologna fa schifo a tutti? Infilare l'adriatica sull'AV mi sembra pura utopia, con i ritardi su due linee diverse che vengno elevati al quadrato. Matematicamente impossibile.
> 
> 
> Ma quale cambio...
> Con una linea che tiene senza problema 5-6 treni/ora pure i cambi?
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> Al ROGO gli IC e gli ES dalla Roma-Formia-Napoli!
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> qalimero Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 16:02
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> sab 27 dic 2003 1:15
> Località: Toscana Mah, mi pare che i timori sulla compatibiità dei treni da una linea non Av conl'Av vengano esaltati oltre il limite.
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> A parte il fatto che occorre andare versouna affidabilità e puntualità maggiori, il problema di un ritardo è pesante nel casodi eterotachicità,altrimenti lo è molto meno.
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> Piuttosto è da verificare se è il caso di pensare, in caso di maggiore frequenza a treni meno pesanti, p.e. ridurre la composizione dei 500 destinati ad alcuni servizi per dar loro più brio.
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> dreaad Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 16:09
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> mer 22 dic 2004 22:30
> Località: torino pendolasco ha scritto:
> *ammazza joseph! sicuramente vivi in Italia, forse lavori alle FS...
> comunque è un po' difficile darti torto *Pubblicità Trenitalia, in partoclare quella di FSNews: chi osa dire che non è da MinCulPop?
> ...aggiungiamo l'informazione giornalistica ta TG/giornali: non ho mai letto/sentito tante minchiate come nei giorni dell'inaugurazione della MI-BO.
> L'unica trasmissione decente è stata quella di quella stra... della D'Amico e lì Moretti ha fatto un figurone grazie al contraddittorio di 4 pagliacci che sembrava avessero appena finito di farsi la briscola al Bar da Mario.
> Poi mi chiedo... perchè quegli schermi neri sugli ES non trasmettono la velocità del treno? Non sarebbe la migliore pubblicità?
> 
> *But alking about Trenitalia he said some THINGS he denies in this forum:*
> *
> Come si fa a considerare serio un operatore ferroviario che considera il ritardo solo sopra i 25 minuti?
> Ovvio che l'apertura della TO-NO sia stata solo uno spot, peraltro scadente.
> Come si fa a non aver ancora completato quei circa 20 Km prima di Napoli da + di 3 anni?*Poi mi sembra inutile stare a disquisire se l'ETR500 ce l'ha + lungo o + grosso del TGV. A me basta sapere che circa 1 volta su 4 che l'ho preso sono rimasto a piedi perchè aveva finito il Viagra
> *no il tipo vive in UK da 28 anni.prima negli USA.
> cmq non ho negato gli evidenti limiti dell'attuale gestione.
> per quanto non sia ottimale la gestione attuale dell'AV (come se i francesi non abbiano avuto problemi nei primi anni '80 e gli spagnoli non hanno ancora l'ERTMS level 2), non è tutto uno schifo da buttare affatto.
> solo che questo continua a parlare come se io dicessi sempre che la situazione è ottima e sono le altre nazioni a dover correre dietro di noi e non il contrario.
> 
> e mi accusa di DISINFORMAZIONE verso i forumer stranieri.*
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> qalimero Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 22:50
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> sab 27 dic 2003 1:15
> Località: Toscana verremo sul forum delle città grattacielo (che risponde alle iscrizioni come un disseminatore di due dipicche) e discuteremo...
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> Ciao Giuseppe
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> E800 Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: sab 27 dic 2008 23:01
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> gio 22 dic 2005 22:54 pendolasco ha scritto:
> Come si fa a considerare serio un operatore ferroviario che considera il ritardo solo sopra i 25 minuti?
> 
> 
> all'estero la soglia è 1h. Prova a chiedere ad Eurostar (quello vero) e poi mi dici... Nonostante questo considero Eurostar un operatore molto serio.
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> chiuso OT
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> Chi c’è in linea
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> FOL: Milano-Bologna AV (3) page 31
> 
> parere personale: il ritardo accettabile può variare da 1 a 5' per un servizio locale e da 1 a 15 per la LP > 2h30.
> la variazione tra minimo e massimo dipende se eventuali servizi in coincidenza (compreso il servizio urbano) ti attendono o no.
> se non attendono un minuto è il massimo, se ti attendono (o comunque hai un altro servizio che ti porti a destinazione in modo che alla fine il ritardo complessivo rientri nella soglia) il massimo è 5 o 15.
> 
> _________________
> Il presente messaggio e` stato scritto in lingua toscana.
> coloro che ignorano le "finezze" di tale lingua sono pregati dall'astenersi dal fare considerazioni sul significato delle parole, che potrebbe essere diverso da quello delle altre lingue.
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> gbelogi Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: dom 28 dic 2008 12:08
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> Iscritto il:
> lun 21 ago 2006 18:08
> Località: tra Biassono e Cernusco sul Naviglio, sto traslocando Vorrei sapere se siamo d'accordo su alcuni punti:
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> 1*-Il materiale rotabile AV è molto limitato.
> 2-Il nodo di Bologna, prima dell'apertura delle nuova stazione nel 201? è estremamente limitato, sia per la gestione dei treni che per il cambio treno, visto che ha sottopassaggi degni di un paesino, e non di un nodo nevralgico.
> 3-La Milano-Bologna ha una enorme capacità potenziale, che attualmente non è possibile sfruttare (vedi punto 1 e 2) ma che sarà possibile sfruttare nel lungo periodo, deo gratia, con enormi vantaggi per tutto il paese.
> 4-La conseguenza ovvia del punto 1 è che attualmente utilizzare materiale gli ETR 500 fuori dalla tratta Milano-Bologna-Firenze-Roma-Napoli è impensabile.*Riusciamo a raggiungere un consenso su questi quattro punti per proseguire la discussione con chiarezza?
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> chicc0zz0 Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: dom 28 dic 2008 12:52
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> mar 21 nov 2006 19:27
> Località: Dieppe, Senna Marittima, Alta Normandia, Francia 1. ok, ma non solo, penso: si dovrebbero rendere più efficienti i turni del materiale, abbinando mettiamo tre convogli di scorta (1 MI, 1 FI e 1 RM) a tracce strette, perché avendo questi treni che ti arrivano 10 minuti in anticipo e occupano il binario scassi tutto.. meglio che abbiano tracce strette e sostano relativamente poco sul marciapiede delle stazioni di testa, e poi ripartono. Se succedere il casino e fa più di 40 minuti di ritardo, mandi il materiale di scorta.
> 2. mi astengo
> 3. beh, se è 201x direi medio periodo piuttosto che lungo. I benefici si avranno se si metterà mano al trasporto regionale pensandolo tra l'altro come il modo per portare la gente sull'AV. Si potrebbe pensare per esempio di rendere gratuito il viaggio di collegamento in regionale origine-stazione av1 e stazioneav2-destino (entro certi limiti chiloemtrici, 50km per esempio..)
> 
> Finché si penserà che la gente arriva all'AV in macchina, con il *taxi ecc. non *ci saranno reali benefici e sarà di fatto il sostituto dell'aereo mentre chi viaggia sui convogli del trasporto regionale continuerà a bestemmiare (o a passare all'auto) per ritardi, velocità medie da cicloamatore, treni pessimi (non capisco ancora come sia possibile far viaggiare PR Farini, 2p non revamp e compagnia.. quelle stanno bene sulla jonica per il piacere di exp826)
> 
> _________________
> Su "www": la mia galleria di treni, viaggi e altro
> Der Weg ist das Ziel - La meta è il viaggio
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> L'utente, come protesta agli aumenti tariffari e alle classificazioni dei treni, ha deciso di utilizzare esclusivamente treni a tariffa Regionale.
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> aleall Oggetto del messaggio: Re: Milano Bologna AV (3)
> Inviato: dom 28 dic 2008 13:28
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> Iscritto il:
> lun 22 dic 2003 21:09
> Località: Milano & Marotta 1-Ottimizzazione dei turni e materiale consono alla linea
> 2-Si istiuiscono treni con minor tracciato ad X a parte gli AV ad esempio i RV Milano-Parma e Piacenza Ancona diventano Milano-Bologna e Bologna-Ancona, si eviterebbe 2 volte l'ora l'attraversamento ad X del fascio binari migliorando la puntualità
> 3-volere è potere già adesso ci sono delle grandi pecche, vedi il primo AV in arrivo a Milano da Bologna alle 9.29
> 4-come già detto e stradetto su questo forum attualmente gli ETR500 sono sottoutilizzati su 59 sono in servizio una trentina, qualcuno ha i turni alla mano?
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> _________________
> Vogliamo l'eurostar AV Milano-Bologna-Adriatica
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117727075640
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> http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22820&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=450


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## dreaad

translate translate... i wrote on the FOL forum EXACTLY what you wrote here.



> *But alking about Trenitalia he said some THINGS he denies in this forum:*
> *
> Come si fa a considerare serio un operatore ferroviario che considera il ritardo solo sopra i 25 minuti?
> Ovvio che l'apertura della TO-NO sia stata solo uno spot, peraltro scadente.
> Come si fa a non aver ancora completato quei circa 20 Km prima di Napoli da + di 3 anni* [...]


I DIDN'T DENY ANYTHING and I DIDN'T WRITE THIS HIGHLIGHTED PART.

however, to avoid that a personal matter could disturb this topic, it's better resolving it via private message (however i hope to not receive any private message from you, i consider this boring speech closed once and for all ).


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## Federicoft

Near Florence


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## Napo

TV spot on the new HSR lines inaugurated in Italy (with English subtitles)


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## Federicoft

A Frecciarossa on the Bologna-Florence line, this morning:


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## dreaad

^^ very beautiful!


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## joseph1951

Napo said:


> ^^
> 
> http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=7b3309296b85a110VgnVCM10000080a3e90aRCRD


Yes but these data are on the new commercial Trenitalia web-site. 

The commercial web sites first describes: 

The ETR500 Freccirossa AV as having top speeds of 300-350 km/h.

Frecciargento with top speeds of 250-285 km/h 
and
Frecciabianca with top speeds of 220-230 Km/h

Then, the Trenitalia web site gives the specification for the ETR500 Fraccirossa AV, stating a Max speed of 300 km/h, which is the certified max speed for this type of train.

The Frecciargento, i.e: the ETR600, has a maximum certified and homologated speed of 250km/h. And as such is descrbed and homologated by the manufacturer.


The Freccciabianca (ESCity) is made of the 1st series of the 3 kV ETR500 locos , now reclassified E414, used in composition with 10 "revamped" carriages, UIC X , Z, and some GC, which have a top speed of 200km/h.

One thing is to state the true top speed homologated, according to the International UIC rules, which are mandatory. 

A totally different matter is publicising non-homolagated speed for commercial purposes. 

At best, this is an unethical marketing exercise to confuse the public. But it is an exercise which might well be in breach of UIC regulations, which rules on such matters. 

Such misdescrption of "goods" can be sbmitted to the judiciary. The EU legislation and also the UIC rules are pretty stringent on such matters. 

One might question the legality of Trenitalia's pubblicity stunt.

There is no unmodified bogie mounted on revamped GC or X o Z carriages which is homologated to circulate above 200km/h. 
These bogies can circulate above 200km/ but with due modifications which, to my knowledge, have not been made on the carraiages in composition with the E414 (Ex locos E404, of the ETR500 , first series + 10 200km/ standard , revamped carriages).


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## dreaad

^^ destintions?? i don't know this word. maybe designers.

in this case,ETR600 was designed by giugiaro (designer of turin), who also created the new red-grey-black livery for high speed trains (IMHO very beatiful except the red "face" of the ETR500  ), the stylized "AV" symbol (alta velocità, high speed) on the flanks and the penultimate generation of italian tilting trains (ETR 460/470/485) able to run @ 250 km/h (except ETR470 limited @ 200 and used for international service in Swiss).

ETR500 was designed by pininfarina instead (he's also a designer of turin), like its interior.

@napo: joseph is right
ETR600 was tested @ 275 km/h (250+10%) as prescribed by the UIC rules . so the max commercial speed of this train is 250 km/h.
trenitalia writes these speeds only for commercial purposes.


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## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> ^^ destintions?? i don't know this word. maybe designers.
> 
> in this case,ETR600 was designed by giugiaro (designer of turin), who also created the new red-grey-black livery for high speed trains (IMHO very beatiful except the red "face" of the ETR500  ), the stylized "AV" symbol (alta velocità, high speed) on the flanks and the penultimate generation of italian tilting trains (ETR 460/470/485) able to run @ 250 km/h (except ETR470 limited @ 200 and used for international service in Swiss).
> 
> ETR500 was designed by pininfarina instead (he's also a designer of turin), like its interior.
> 
> @napo: joseph is right
> ETR600 was tested @ 275 km/h (250+10%) as prescribed by the UIC rules . so the max commercial speed of this train is 250 km/h.
> trenitalia writes these speeds only for commercial purposes.



Which you have disseminated on an international forum for what purposes?

And this is not the first time you do this. You tried about a year ago..or so..... When first I intervene.


----------



## hans280

Guys, sorry if I'm flogging a dead horse, but I do have a question that has generally been bogging me. I apologise in advance if it seems a bit hostile to FS/TAV - especially as I, and in particular our friend Joseph, have in the past taken potshots at the emerging Italian HS concept. The thing I would truly like to understand is this: 

The distance between Milan and Rome is - if I can read the TAV maps made available on Italian websites - some 560 km following the new HSLs plus the Direttissima. The travel time for high-speed trains without stop in Bologna and Firenze is expected to be 3 hours. In my book that makes for an effective speed of just under 190 km/h hours between the two metropoles. Now... on a first generation HS track like in Germany or - these days - in Belgium and South England this is a reasonable achievement. But, if FS really, REALLY means 300 km/h thoughout its network then it's unbelieveably crummy. So... can someone PLEASE tell me what's going on here? Why are the trains between Milan and Rome scheduled to travel significantly slower than the trains between Paris and Tours who - they too - have 300 km/h as their travel speed?


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## Federicoft

First of all, because between Rome and Florence (255 km out of 560 km), trains will run at 250 km/h on the old Direttissima.
Then, because trains will have to slow down in Bologna and Florence, and you know, the ETR.500 has a rather poor acceleration. 
Ultimately, Trenitalia timetables are very conservative, since they are afraid to pay large delay refunds to passengers. Actual travel times are shorter, it is not uncommon for trains to cover the Milan-Rome line in 3h15min today.

I'm confident that with new trains, NTV competition, tighter timetables and once the high-speed tunnel in Bologna will be completed (2012), travel times can be as short as 2h 30min.


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## Eddard Stark

Federicoft said:


> First of all, because between Rome and Florence (255 km out of 560 km), trains will run at 250 km/h on the old Direttissima.
> Then, because trains will have to slow down in Bologna and Florence, and you know, the ETR.500 has a rather poor acceleration.
> Ultimately, Trenitalia timetables are very conservative, since they are afraid to pay large delay refunds to passengers. Actual travel times are shorter, it is not uncommon for trains to cover the Milan-Rome line in 3h15min today.
> 
> I'm confident that with new trains, NTV competition, tighter timetables and once the high-speed tunnel in Bologna will be completed (2012), travel times can be as short as 2h 30min.


I agree with Federico (and that doesn't happen very often  )

On top there is a limitation at 240 km/H also around Modena in the Milano-Bologna line. Anyway Italy being a country of cities more similar to Germany than France this suits fairly well for the country which doesn't just need a fast connection between its two capitals, Milan and Rome, but also good connections of its other important cities on or connected to these new AV lines (Torino, Napoli, Bologna, Firenze, Verona, Venezia-Padova) with each other.


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## hans280

Federicoft said:


> First of all, because between Rome and Florence (255 km out of 560 km), trains will run at 250 km/h on the old Direttissima.
> Then, because trains will have to slow down in Bologna and Florence, and you know, the ETR.500 has a rather poor acceleration.
> Ultimately, Trenitalia timetables are very conservative, since they are afraid to pay large delay refunds to passengers. Actual travel times are shorter, it is not uncommon for trains to cover the Milan-Rome line in 3h15min today.


Many thanks, Federico. Yeah, it looks like a number of small problems conspire. I initially discarded the slightly lower speed on the Direttisima because I thought that, well, with Vmax 250 km/h they can still roll comfortably above 200 km/h, but I guess the top speeds on the oldest part (the southern third as far as I know) of this line are also not yet quite up to 250 km/h? We were discussing some weeks ago the pending upgrades of the Direttisima to shave off another few minutes of travel time. Then there's the passthrough of Florence and Bologna plus, as Eddard mentioned, the kink in the line next to Modena. The one point that WILL in my view be successfully amended by the advent of AGVs is the acceleration in and out of these go-slow zones: from what I hear that train is a real sprinter! :cheers: Finally, the point about delay refunds was news to me: I'm aware that the AVEs between Madrid and Barcelona are significantly slower than they need to be for this reason, but I'm surprised - and, frankly, a bit disappointed - that we shall expect the same in Italy. Ah well... hno:


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## JoFMO

Another problem with the old Direttissima between Florence and Rome is the 3kv DC overhead wiring. DC is not really the right voltage for high performance train running. There are plans to equip the old line AC power as the nwe line from Milano to Bologna. That would be quite beneficial for the high speed trains and could allow them to reach their full performance. 

I really think that we could see 2:30 running time between Milano and Rome in the not so distant future.


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## gincan

hans280 said:


> Many thanks, Federico. Yeah, it looks like a number of small problems conspire. I initially discarded the slightly lower speed on the Direttisima because I thought that, well, with Vmax 250 km/h they can still roll comfortably above 200 km/h, but I guess the top speeds on the oldest part (the southern third as far as I know) of this line are also not yet quite up to 250 km/h? We were discussing some weeks ago the pending upgrades of the Direttisima to shave off another few minutes of travel time. Then there's the passthrough of Florence and Bologna plus, as Eddard mentioned, the kink in the line next to Modena. The one point that WILL in my view be successfully amended by the advent of AGVs is the acceleration in and out of these go-slow zones: from what I hear that train is a real sprinter! :cheers: Finally, the point about delay refunds was news to me: I'm aware that the AVEs between Madrid and Barcelona are significantly slower than they need to be for this reason, but I'm surprised - and, frankly, a bit disappointed - that we shall expect the same in Italy. Ah well... hno:


I fully expect that once the deregulation of the railwaysector is finished, we'll see a similar evolution of the travelmarket that the airtravelmarket went through 10 years ago. Lowfare operators will compete with the old ex governmental operators. 

I fully expect up to 3-4 different companys competing on the Milan-Rome line aswell on the Spanish and Frensh ditto. The lowfare operators won't give a bugger about refunds and keeping the trains on time, they'll just run as fast as the tracks permit and try to kill the copetition with cheat tickets. 

Refunds, 99%+ trains on time and gourmet meals in firstclass will very uncommon in the future. I predict way cheaper tickets but also a service that will be less reliable as the competition will force every operator to cut corners, just like it is today in the airtravelmarket.


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## joseph1951

gincan said:


> I fully expect that once the deregulation of the railwaysector is finished, we'll see a similar evolution of the travelmarket that the airtravelmarket went through 10 years ago. Lowfare operators will compete with the old ex governmental operators.
> 
> I fully expect up to 3-4 different companys competing on the Milan-Rome line aswell on the Spanish and Frensh ditto. The lowfare operators won't give a bugger about refunds and keeping the trains on time, they'll just run as fast as the tracks permit and try to kill the copetition with cheat tickets.
> 
> Refunds, 99%+ trains on time and gourmet meals in firstclass will very uncommon in the future. I predict way cheaper tickets but also a service that will be less reliable as the competition will force every operator to cut corners, just like it is today in the airtravelmarket.



------------------------------


REFI and Italferr web sites

sped restriction: 
http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/The Bologna Junction.pdf

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/Florence urban junction.pdf

---------------

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/The new high speed BOLOGNA - FLORENCE line.pdf



http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/The new high speed TURIN - MILAN line.pdf

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/The new high speed ROME - NAPLES line.pdf

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Italian mixed traffic HSL Florence-Rome was built with a maximum planning speed of 250km/h, and was energised under the 3kV dc, like the historical Florence-Rome Line. 

The two HSL tracks were meant, and are used,- as a single mixed traffic line for goods trains, as well as, for slow, semi-fast, and fast passenger trains. 

The slow line is extremely slow. It is 316 kms long and windy, and over 50% of its length is in curves, which can be negotiated at speeds of 95-105 km/h (i'e: the Rome-Orte section)

The four tracks of the Florence-Rome HSL section are already at a saturation points on their extremities, namely on the Rome-Orte section (about 83 km) and on the Alto Mugello-Florence section (for about 30-40 km).

The mixed traffic HSL Rome-Florence line is pivotal to the entire Milan - Naples HSL corridor. 

These problems are well known. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The HSL Florence-Rome was built for:
Goods trains: max speed 100-120 -160km/h
Inter-regional trains max speed 140-160/km/h
Long distance express trains: max speed 140-160/km/h
IC trains: max speed: 180-200km/h 
Pure HS trains max speeds: 220-250

231 km of the HSL Florence -Rome are high speed, the end sections have speed restrictions from Rovezzano to Florence -Campo di Marte, and from Settebagni to Rome-Termini (16km). 

On the Florence-Bologna Section when the new HSL line will be finally buit and fully operational there will be 5 speed restrctions (with top theoretical speeds of 80-80-100-100 100-100km/h).

(Please refer to the RFI/ITalferr projects posted below, illustrating the technical characteristics of the Florence and Bologna Junctions)

In the past, only a few Pendolinos ETR450 were able to reach the top speed of 250km for half or 2 third of he high speed section. Quite a few times the ETR450 running late, were able to run over the 231 km long high speed section at 260-270 km/h, just to make up time. At the time, Rome-Florence journey times of 1h 10 minutes were achieved by some pendolinos, these timings were achieved between 1988 and 1993. 

Now, with the more stringent train control systems, and with an increased number of trains running on the FI-Rome HSL at different speeds, it is difficult to reach those top speeds. 

Because the Florence -Rome HS line (also known as the DD) is energized under 3000 volt dc wiring, the ETR500 trains are allowed to use the 2 pantographs up to 200km/h. 

Above this speed only one pantograph must be used, and the second locomotive will travel as a dead weight. 

On the ETR500, one 68t loco develops only 4,400 kW, and has to pull a train weighing 660t (inclusive of passenger weight, calculated at 70 % seat capacity) at speed above 200km/h.

It is obvious that with a power/weight ratio of 6.6 kW/ton, distributed on only 2 bogies the acceleration from 200km/h to 250km/h will be slow.

Also, under these conditions the active locomotive is obviously under severe effort, and near the limit of adherence. 

This will considerably shorten the life of these locomotives. Obviously, this is self-explanatory.

Therefore at speeds above 200km'/h under the HS Florence -Rome the ETR500 performance is quite mediocre. 

A lighter tilting train, with more power/weight ratio has done better, and could still do better.

It is also of common knowledge the the max theoretical speed of a very busy mixed traffic HS line cannot be sustained for the entire length of the HS line.

It is also obvious that the max commercial speed is a compromise speed between the maximum theorethical speed and the commercial max speeds achievabe in a HSL, on which several types of trains run at several different speeds. 

Of the entire Italian HSL North-South rail network, the Florence-Rome 4 track section, is the busiest one. To interrupt two racks on this section, just to change and rewire the overhead cables means to interrupt the North -South traffic the Italian Peninsula. 
Only a small percentage of the trains which use this very important and critical part of the North-South HS network, can be rerouted via the Tyrrhenian Line which -incidentally - has not been upgraded. 


Refi – ITALFERR

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=19a68c3e13e0a110VgnVCM10000080a3e90aRCRD


----------



## Eddard Stark

Joseph, I think in the last years works have been done on the Firenze-Roma (the oldest AV of Europe...even thought it's a strange beast) concerning mainly the switch from 3K to 25K. Basically on some stretches the power line has been already adapted (and other stretches will follow) in order to be able to switch quickly (when and if needed) from 3K to 25K. This specifically for the Settebagni-Orte section. Anyone correct me if I am wrong

Moreover most non-AV trains (particularly the local ones) have been moved to the slow line this year, to make room for AV trains. The parts which are more congested are in fact near Rome and Florence due to the local trains, which will run from now on the old line rather than the "fast" one.

This should (partially) resolve the problems of this line of capacity and speed. Of course is a AV line that wasn't planned like the French AV, so it will never have those performances. But TI confirmed it will reduce travel time between Roma and Firenze to 1H and 20 minutes which I think is acceptable and 2 dedicated tracks to AV is more than enough right now for italian traffic, both TI and NTV

So I do not see so many complications in using this line for the AV system.


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## hans280

gincan said:


> Refunds, 99%+ trains on time and gourmet meals in firstclass will very uncommon in the future. I predict way cheaper tickets but also a service that will be less reliable as the competition will force every operator to cut corners, just like it is today in the airtravelmarket.


I both agree and disagree. Some time soon HS travel will no longer be considered as a luxury and - as happened with air travel - then frills like gourmet meals will no doubt dissapear. Perhaps refunds will disappear as well in the case of cut-throat competition, but I certainly doubt that timeliness will suffer. That might be the case on absolute point-point routes (like Marseille-Paris) but in integrated networks where a lot of passengers depend on connecting trains - and leave themselves much, much less time for changing trains than they would when traveling transit through airports - timeliness becomes a chief competitive parameter. I would expect frills to be cut, but timeliness to move to the forefront. 



Eddard Stark said:


> Of course is a AV line that wasn't planned like the French AV, so it will never have those performances. But TI confirmed it will reduce travel time between Roma and Firenze to 1H and 20 minutes which I think is acceptable and 2 dedicated tracks to AV is more than enough right now for italian traffic, both TI and NTV.


Eddard, do we know when FS expects to cut the travel time to 1h20? I ask out of pure ignorance: in the old days they maintained a TAV website - which has now been pulled down - presenting progress reports and projected finalisation dates, but even back then they never gave a date for the modernisation of the Direttissima. It was just "work to be done" in the context of the project. It looked to me as if - with everyone's eyes on the HSL construction projects - improvements to the old line were seen as a bit "unfashionable" and deferred to later. Or, maybe I'm mistaken. Can you illuminate?


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Paxromana said:


> Da Trainzitalia:


...


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## joseph1951

TohrAlkimista said:


> Which TAV-Station is projected by Zaha Hadid? the one in Napoli?


Yes


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## joseph1951

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Poor?
> 
> I don't understand what you mean with poor
> 
> If you mean that it looks a bit oldand too dirty, you're right; but now they're completely restructuring it
> 
> If you mean they have to tear down (or partly tear down) the station to add a new futuristic structure it would sound to me as a vandalic act...


I agree. But they could at least raise the height of the platforms, and /or re-pave them. 
In the picture, they look a bit low, old, and ...tatty.


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## joseph1951

Bitxofo said:


> Are there high speed trains leaving from Venice to Rome? How long do they take?
> :?
> Grazie!


From Venice to Rome there are some trains classified as high speed trains. The journey time is about 4 hours for 518km long journey. Average commercial speed: about 130km/h.


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## joseph1951

elfabyanos said:


> Fastest I found tomorrow
> 11:54 MESTRE
> 16:03 ROMA TE duration 04:09


I am afraid Venezia Mestre IS NOT the Venice station. 
The Venice station is in Venice, and it is called "Venezia Santa Lucia". Venice Santa Lucia is the Terminal Station in Venice.

A train leaving from Venezia Santa Lucia (Venice SL) has to travel for about 9 km over the lagoon rail bridge, in order to reach (Venice) Mestre Station. 

To board a train in Venice SL and then to change at Mestre, then to catch a Mestre-Rome HS train, is time consuming. It takes 8-10 minutes from Venice to Mestre then there is the change of platform and, finally, the waiting time for the connection, in order to board the HS train Mestre - Rome. 

Unfortunately, given the fact tha Venice is built on small islands, on the Venetian lagoon, there is little one can do about it. 
But, in the early an foggy mornings of late Autumn, the fog blends with the sea, and the train seems to be floating on the air.

It is an unsual experience, quite unique, and at times, when a pale orange sun strive to pierce the fog, the experience can a bit surrealistic.


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## joseph1951

Coccodrillo said:


> A map with the number of train pairs of the 2008 timetable:
> 
> http://www.milanotrasporti.org/forumfiles/uploads/msrcooper_Asse_BO-FI-RM.jpg
> 
> All long distance trains between Bologna, Firenze and Roma are shown, but not on the other branches, which have more trains.
> 
> EuroStar trains between Milano and Firenze run on the classic lines, taking about 2h45. InterCity trains take 3h15 but have more stops.
> 
> For Milano-Roma, actual travel times are: 4h05 EuroStar stopping only at Bologna, 4h30 other EuroStar, 5h50 InterCity.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure? I have never heard about that.


Correction: there were rumours about the posibility of selling three ETR500 trainsets to Turkey. 

Those rumours were circulating during the use in Turkey of an ETR500 Y test train.

Subsequently, the rumours failed to turn into reality. 

As far as know, the ETR500 assembly line appears to have been dismantled.
Furthermore, it would appear that the locomotives of both ETR500 series do not comply with the most recent crash-worthiness standards.


----------



## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> Joseph, I think in the last years works have been done on the Firenze-Roma (the oldest AV of Europe...even thought it's a strange beast) concerning mainly the switch from 3K to 25K. Basically on some stretches the power line has been already adapted (and other stretches will follow) in order to be able to switch quickly (when and if needed) from 3K to 25K. This specifically for the Settebagni-Orte section. Anyone correct me if I am wrong
> 
> 1 -
> *Moreover most non-AV trains (particularly the local ones) have been moved to the slow line this year, to make room for AV trains. The parts which are more congested are in fact near Rome and Florence due to the local trains, which will run from now on the old line rather than the "fast" one.*
> 
> This should (partially) resolve the problems of this line of capacity and speed. Of course is a AV line that wasn't planned like the French AV, so it will never have those performances. But TI confirmed it will reduce travel time between Roma and Firenze to 1H and 20 minutes which I think is acceptable and 2 dedicated tracks to AV is more than enough right now for italian traffic, both TI and NTV
> 
> So I do not see so many complications in using this line for the AV system.



Is this why the few IC/IC plus left on the Milan-Rome are scheduled for journey time of 6-7 hours? For less than 570 km long journey? 

And what about the regional semi-fast and fast trains between Rome -Orte-Arezzo- Florence?
5 hours , and 4 and 1/2 hours, for 316 kms?

Does this involves the suppression of long distance day and night expresses, such as Reggio Calabria -Milan? (about 1200km long).


So the passengers travelling from Turin-Milan -Reggio Calabria or Milan-Reggio Calabria will have to use HS train during the day cover the journey in 11-12 hours at a cost far superior to that of the aeroplane, and at an average speed of 100-110km/h? 

And you call this high speed rail network?

We are back to the early '60 when Italy was still struggling to rebuilt the rail network, to reconstruct the infrastructure, and to move from a destroyed pre-industrial mainly agricultural Country, to an industrial Country. 

The passage between a pre-industrial Country to an industrial Country occurred between the early 60s and the mid-late 70s. 

It was the so called economic boom. I witness that period, you might have not.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the Cannes premiere of the DaVinci Code, and with the short British HS line not fully built, the TGV TMST was making the journey between London and Cannes in just above 7 hours. (About 1500 kms).

Right now, it is possible to do a London-Milan fast TGV TMS train in about 9 and 1/2 hours, WITHOUT having to wait for the construction of the new High Speed line between Lyon and Turin, and without having to use of the new dodgy-but- soon-to-be-completed Milan-Turin HSL. 


If this is the the best and the most advanced High speed rail system in Western Europe, with trains travelling at 350km/h and with the ETRMS 1 and ETRMS 2 firstly implemented in the world, then the automotive and aeroplane industries will be extremely grateful to TI.


----------



## hans280

^^ Joseph, for pity's sake calm down. I understand your frustrations, but you'll just turn people against you by throwing your arguments at them in the form of accusations. 

As I said in an earlier posting I think the main problems in the Italian TAV programme these days are the tardy planning process (and the Conferenzi di Servizi are supposed to have improved this over what it was...:nuts and the persistent delays in execution. Once they've knitted together their famous "T" (Turin-Venice/Milan-Naples) the concept will be quite healthy - although I'd personally have recommended a bypass at Bologna and Florence as well as some better connections into and out of Milan. The problem is... in the interim the whole thing works so haphazardly that one inevitably scoffs at the notion "high speed".


----------



## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> Finally, nothing forbids in the future to build a (likely) underground bypass under Bologna or Florence. Given the (in my opinion excellent) characteristichs of the above project this is something which is less relevant than building a transportation hub for the whole country under the existing main transportation hub of the country
> 
> I think it's much more in the national interest than the above bypass, which are just "locally" important for the traffic between the 2 main cities of Italy, Rome and Milan.
> 
> So as far as for the "national" interest the whole project is very much in line with what our country needs


Dear Eddard, 
There is no need to concentrate all the traffic north -south via Bologna.
It was Bologna (political people) which wanted this. 

For instance the Adriatic Line (Lecce-Foggia Bari -Rimini -Bologna) has a well known missing link. 

The missing link is the Venice-Mestre -Padua- Ravenna -Rimini- which continues southward.
In the past, there was a project called the *Romea ferroviaria *which among other improvements proposed also suggested the Rail "Romea" link from Mestre (with spurs at Mestre and Padua to Rimini) and a continuation to Orte, where the line would have been linked to the DD section: Orte-Rome.

If I am not mistaken there is already a dual carriageway/ motorway between Padua -Cesena -Orte, and also a "superstrada" - a sort of second rate motorway - Ferrara-Codigoro.

The line would have passed between Mestre- Adria-Codigoro and, after Codigoro with a spur to Bologna, and the other side of the bifurcation the line would have continued passing near Ravenna (with a link to Ravenna historical rail line) and continued southward to Rimini , then from Rimini either to Arezzo or Orte (interconnections with the DD -Florence Rome).

When it comes to build motorways there is no problem. Even the eco-friendly people like motorways. But, when it comes to build new railways...well, it is a different matter.

The Adriatic Line Bologna- Bari -Lecce is 799 Km long (plus its branching to Taranto).

This line is almost completely doubled, and on the several upgraded sections allows speed up to 200km/h, which cannot be implemented because of lack of appropriate signalling system. 

In order to go from Bari-Rimini to either Milan, o Turin or to Venice, all trains have to call at Bologna Central, which is absurd.

The Adriatic Rail Line is a main rail artery linking the far south to the corridor 5, Lisbon -Kiev.

The missing link could be roughly Y shaped.
From Rimini the line will have a bifurcation towards Lavino (20km north of Bologna Central), and with the other branch heading towards Padua and Mestre. 

Obviously, the new HC line (with a top speed of about 250km/h) will have connections with the historical lines Rimini-Bologna, Ravenna- Padua. 
Therefore it would be possible to have direct services with Padua-Mestre -Venice Trieste bypassing BO. Central.

The new line will be about 60 km/shorter than the detour via Bologna Central) also allowing faster services 
*to Milan *,

(Rimini HC line to Lavino, and then Lavino Milan HS/HC Line bypassing Bologna) and 
*to: Turin* 
(HC line to Lavino then HS/HC Lavino-Piacenza, then the train will be routed on the historical line Piacenza- Alessandria-Turin, with active tilting mechanism .

Similarly it would be possible a *Lecce - (Bari) - Rimini - Genova *via, Lavino HC line to Piacenza and then Voghera –Genova, the latter section in tilting mode.

On the Adriatic Line there are many towns which are important ports as well as holiday resorts (Bari- Brindisi, Taranto, Lecce, Pescara - Ancona - Rimini-Ravenna ----> to Mestre -Venice Trieste on one side, and Tyrrhenian Side *to Genova and Savona.*
Despite the upgrading of the Lecce (Taranto) Bari- Bologna which could allow sustained speed at 200km/h , the present travelling time and frequency of the rail service is actually worse now than the previous decade. 

In the last few years there has been a considerable worsening of the services on the *Adriatic Line to Venice, Milan , Turin or Genoa or Genova corridors*. 

The Italian Railways have suppressed all HSTs, and all ICs fast services conncting the t "Adriatica" line to the northern regions . The few services which are still operational have biblical journey times. 

For instance for the Milan -Ancona -roughly 423 km long, it takes over 4h , unless one takes the *Frecciarossas* from Milan to Bologna, change at Bologna for Ancona, at a considerable increase in cost, and then the journey is still too slow (3h 21' - for the fastest frecciarossa/ red-arrow ), and far too expensive, at least for my taste. 


http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/Pr...uest_receipt_pdf=on&noreservation=0&economy=0


There is no need to build a Bologna bypassing line in tunnel. The bypassing HS lines can be built next to the motorway ring roads, encircling Bologna.


Nowadays there is a trend in Italy which consists mainly in building HSLs all in underground, with underground HS Station, just above the Historical stations.

The saga continues on the section Padua-Vicenza-Verona (about 60km long, with Vicenza in the middle). 

Padua wants the underground crossing of the historical section. The Hs line should continue towards Vicenza (30 km from Padua) mostly underground to protect the sugar beetroot fields from acoustic Pollution, the underground HS station at Vicenza, the continuation in underground to Verona and crossing of Verona by building an underground station under the historical Verona Station.
The new Padua -Verona via Vicenza, all in underground will be extremely costly and would not offer any improvement in journey time compared to the historical line, which has a maximum speed of 180Km/h, upgradeable to 200km/h.

The logical solution is the FS* solution prepared 20 years ago: From Mestre stopping or crossing in Padua on the surface, from Mestre a southward bypassing line, avoiding Padua , which continues South of Padua in an almost straight line towards Verona and bypassing Verona Southward. This HSL will be about 40 km long and will have interconnections at Padua, and at Verona.


The 60+ km long * Padua-Vicenza Verona * totally in tunnel, in my opinion will have some degree of justification for a maglev line running on partially vacuumed tunnels.
(Please refer to the Swisssmetro and Vacutrains projects).

FS* = Ferrovie dello Stato = Italian State Railways

As far as a "Hub for the Whole Country............." 
waht a lot of baloney.


Kind regards,


----------



## Eddard Stark

Joseph, when you will show me where any forumer wrote - with malicious caprice, as you said - that the travel time between Rome and Milan will be 2 hours I will answer you. Since than I assume you are still giving on this forum false impressions on italian TAV

As for your HSR link around Bologna...easy to build, very easy. Have you ever passed there on a car? I don't think you know what you write about.


----------



## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> As I read the evidence a future bypass under Florence is far the most likely. That's where they've made an OK-for-now solution. BO looks more serious. As for the "excellent" characteristics, well... I guess we are all children of our environment, the papers we read, the news broadcastings we watch. A few weeks ago there was a big article in Le Figaro complaining about the scandalous situation we're in, where the only 580 km between Paris and Bordeaux take a full 3 hours by train. This travel time, so the newspaper, should be cut dramatically.
> 
> And I think that the national interest almost always involves giving an absolute priority to the nation's capital over the provinces. My childhood in tiny Denmark taught me this; my adulthood in centralist France confirmed this. Perhaps that's why I really don't feel well in federalist countries?


580 km is similar to Rome-Milan, which will be 3 hours too, at worst...likely less. And with all our speed limitations. What lies between Paris and Bordeaux? in between Rome and Milan there are some of wealthiest and most populous regions of Italy (Emilia Romagna and Toscana) with Bologna being the main rail hub of Italy.

About capitals...you cannot compare the 2 countries you mentioned with Italy.

France is Paris, and the other way around: 25% of French live there, the others have to get there as fast as they can. Denmark: how many danes live in Copenaghen? 40%?

Italy: Rome is the political capital, but only the third metropolitan area of the country in population and second in economy. Milan is far more important in business, Turin is not far away from Rome and for some things above and Naples is poor but huge. On top there are hundreds small and medium sized cities which matter a lot, like in the Veneto region. 

All these centers of power and business connect to each other: in France Lion connects to Paris, Bardeaux to Paris, Lille to Paris. In Italy Turin to Milan, Turin to Rome, Naples to Milan, Naples to Rome. Rome to Veneto, Bologna and Florence with everybody. There is not a firm subjugation of the "provinces" as you call them in a very french way. For many ways, the italian north feels much above Rome (right or wrong...probably wrong)


----------



## hans280

Eddard Stark said:


> 580 km is similar to Rome-Milan, which will be 3 hours too, at worst...likely less. And with all our speed limitations. What lies between Paris and Bordeaux?


Tours and Poitiers, only - though please note that this is due to a conscious decision about not serving traditionally more important towns in Western France such as Orleans. More importantly, there is NO HS line to Bordeaux. The "scandalous" three hours are obtained on a track that is 2/3 traditional and only HS between Tours and Paris. 




Eddard Stark said:


> France is Paris, and the other way around: 25% of French live there, the others have to get there as fast as they can. Denmark: how many danes live in Copenaghen? 40%?


Actually it's just under 20% in France and about 25% in Denmark. Hence, France is not very concentrated, compared for instance with Britain and Australia (close to a third of the population in the main city) or some Asian countries. The springing point, however, is that the French economy is very concentrated, with more than a third in Paris - and more than half of what we could call the "internationally competitive economy" there. (I.e. much of the economic activity in provinces are for local consumption.) Therefore, about two thirds of all longer travels within the country are either from Paris or to Paris. 



Eddard Stark said:


> In Italy Turin to Milan, Turin to Rome, Naples to Milan, Naples to Rome. Rome to Veneto, Bologna and Florence with everybody. There is not a firm subjugation of the "provinces" as you call them in a very french way. For many ways, the italian north feels much above Rome (right or wrong...probably wrong)


Yeah well... viva Padania - though I should not say this to a man from Abruzzi. :lol: But you say it yourself in your Metternich quotation: Italy is a geographic expression.


----------



## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> Joseph, when you will show me where any forumer wrote - with malicious caprice, as you said - that the travel time between Rome and Milan will be 2 hours I will answer you. Since than I assume you are still giving on this forum false impressions on italian TAV
> 
> As for your HSR link around Bologna...easy to build, very easy. Have you ever passed there on a car? I don't think you know what you write about.



here some examples:


My post page 2

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=2

Mi-Central with a poster Milano Bologna “ Solo 1 ora” Milan Bologna JUST 1 HOUR

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=3

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=4

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=6


Genius Loci + Federicoft 
Federicoft 
Milan-Rome 2h 30 minute
Genius Loci
Frecciarossa 300-350km/h
Freccia Bianca 250-285
Fracciaargento200-230 km/h
Etc


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=9


page 10 #
Genius Loci accusation that I make disinformation because I was skeeptical of the fesiblity of th Messina Bridge being completed by 2016, as claimed by some Italian local groups.
dread contesting the official toachograph of the ETR500 + carriages on the Turin Milan HSL section.


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=10



page 4


Here is the speed diagram of the reduced formation of the ETR500 (2 locos + 8 carriages) used on the Turin-Milan High Speed line.


http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5...ovarasvtv1.png


Page 11

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=11


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=29861832#post29861832

Federcoft 

The Italian HSL canendure by project 350km/h.
NO the max project speeds is 300km/h fo some sections only 

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=12

Federicoft quoting travelling time o 2h 15 min (by upgrading the Rome Florence?/) on the Milan Rome route?

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=13


dreaad asking Ferrovie on Line if the ETR testing for 330 km/h for homologation at 300Km/h were consist of 8 or 12 carriages 

And dread asking to the FOL forums to help him by intervening of the international skyscraper forum to discredit me..

Reply of pendolasco to dreaad 

“Gosh, Joseph. For sure you live in Italy and perhaps you work for FS… difficult to maintain that you are wrong (“difficile darti torto”) 
http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22820&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=420

Federicoft
Saying that “it is not uncommon seeing today journey time of 3 h 15’ between Milan and Rome.

Fdercoft scoffing the French “because it took them 30 years to reach Marseilles”
Napo
Boasting the top speeds of the small Italian HSTs fleet

JFMO writing about runnings of 2h 30 minutes on the Milan-Rome in the near future


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=14




Your post of 27-01-09 on your cosy Italian section 

In which you misquote me ,by saying that I more or less hate the fact that, once the works are completed with the underground passing etc it will take 2h 30 minute from Milan-Rome The journey from Milan to Rome will take only 2h 30 minutes…
Firstly from Milan-Rome I MEAN Milan Central Station to Rome Termini.
Not Milan Rogoredo Station To Rome Tiburtina


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## Eddard Stark

1) Trains run in 1 hour and 5 minutes between Milan and Bologna now, with constructions of the Bologna bypass not completed

2) Trains run in 3 hours and 30 minutes between Milan and Rome (official time) and they are often early up to 15 minutes NOW (as Federicoft rightly said)

http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/Ti...timsm=06&lang=it&nreq=5&channel=tcom&x=24&y=6

This allows surely 30 minutes less for the BO-FI av which will open next year. So it's 3 hours no doubt. The doubt is if they will be able to go to 2:30 minutes (Centrale-Termini). Considering the 2 bypass under construction underground Bologna and Firenze and the upgrade on the old FI-RO it may be possible. You don't know for sure if it is impossible, we don't know for sure if it is possible. You just have to admit it. Anyway SURELY it will be less than 3 hours for simple math reasons (210minutes now - 30 minutes FI-BO - bypass savings <180 minutes)

3) I do not see anywhere any malicious affirmation saying that trains will run in 2 hours between Rome and Milan as you said. some posts above. I think you are just wrong and you shall ask pardon to the italian forumers.

Maybe it's not the italian forumers giving out false info, it's you who accuses people of behaving in a malicious way when they are just thinking on facts, information coming from TI and other speculations. 

I think you are just mad that this system is working, capturing clients and cutting progressively the travelling time between the main italian cities.

I have a solution: just wait till December when the Torino-Milano, Firenze-Bologna and Roma-Napoli will be completed and let's see. I am optymist


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## Federicoft

^^
Don't worry, sooner or later you'll get tired too of saying the same things over and over again, as pretty much everybody else who tried to debate with him did.
Just ignore him, or laugh at him, depends on your personality.


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## joseph1951

Federicoft said:


> ^^
> Don't worry, sooner or later you'll get tired too of saying the same things over and over again, as pretty much everybody else who tried to debate with him did.
> Just ignore him, or laugh at him, depends on your personality.


Frankly I cannot see the point to be so unnecessarily rude. It can only be detrimental both to the discussion and to you. 

Both the project and the official FS papers, including TI (or FS) documentation stating quite clearly that, at the full opening of the lines, at the full completion of the works, and that includes the underpasses, of Bologna, and Florence etc, the travelling time of the HST non stop, between Milan Central and Rome Termini, will be 3 hours.

It is also officially reported that from Milan Central - to Naples Central, the journey time will be 4h 10'.

They might well decide to have a few fast trains, starting at Milan-Rogoredo and terminating at Rome Tiburtina, with slightly reduced travelling times. . 

Both stations are on the outskirt of the two cities......

I am merely sticking to the official data.

As far as the future is concerned, they might well decide to increase the maximum speed, or they might not. 

This remains a matter of mere speculation and wishful thinking.

As far as I am concern, I have no precognitive abilities, and I do not know of anybody who can predict, with any accuracy, neither an hypothetical event which might occur in the medium term or long term future.
Yours and Eddard's are merely conjectures substantiated, neither by any official data nor by the previous FS records. The only records that FS (or TI if you prefer ) is of unreliability both planning , in management and in advertising..

Suffice to say that the Milan Bologna AV was first planned ,and then advertised, for a journey time of 1 hour flat, and the poster on the Milan Central station stated quite clearly this travelling time for several years up to the day of commencement of the AV services between Milan and Bologna.

This can be seen in this thread by an earlier picture posted before the fatidic date of commencement of the revolutionary AV fast between Milan and Bologna...

Page 3 of this thread, picture posted by Federicoft 31 Dec , 2007 (?)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=3

In the not too distant future, let's say by 2040, they might even have built a new HS line Milan-Rome-Naples avoiding both Bologna and Florence, and capable of speed in excess of 400km/h over the 95 per cent of the line. 


For this type of speculation, I would like to suggest a new thread " The role of clairvoyancy in fictional Italian TAV" 

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/annu...ng-hai-yin-red-fire-pig-general-analysis.html

It's late .. I wish you the sweetes of dreams.

Kind regards


----------



## Federicoft

:blahblah:


----------



## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> 1) Trains run in 1 hour and 5 minutes between Milan and Bologna now, with constructions of the Bologna bypass not completed
> 
> 2) Trains run in 3 hours and 30 minutes between Milan and Rome (official time) and they are often early up to 15 minutes NOW (as Federicoft rightly said)
> 
> http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/Ti...timsm=06&lang=it&nreq=5&channel=tcom&x=24&y=6
> 
> This allows surely 30 minutes less for the BO-FI av which will open next year. So it's 3 hours no doubt. The doubt is if they will be able to go to 2:30 minutes (Centrale-Termini). Considering the 2 bypass under construction underground Bologna and Firenze and the upgrade on the old FI-RO it may be possible. You don't know for sure if it is impossible, we don't know for sure if it is possible. You just have to admit it. Anyway SURELY it will be less than 3 hours for simple math reasons (210minutes now - 30 minutes FI-BO - bypass savings <180 minutes)
> 
> 3) I do not see anywhere any malicious affirmation saying that trains will run in 2 hours between Rome and Milan as you said. some posts above. I think you are just wrong and you shall ask pardon to the italian forumers.
> 
> Maybe it's not the italian forumers giving out false info, it's you who accuses people of behaving in a malicious way when they are just thinking on facts, information coming from TI and other speculations.
> 
> I think you are just mad that this system is working, capturing clients and cutting progressively the travelling time between the main italian cities.
> 
> I have a solution: just wait till December when the Torino-Milano, Firenze-Bologna and Roma-Napoli will be completed and let's see. I am optymist



*Turin Porta Nuova -Naples-Central non stop via Milan Rho-Milan Lambrate and Milan Rogoredo bypass, then -Bologna-Florence-Rome 5h , 5h 10 *minutes , 5h 20 minutes, at the very best, for 924,5 km
Now Milan -Naples with only one stop to Rome Termini 4h 50 minutes + 1h 10 minutes Rome Naples...
there your are.


In 2009, only the latest sections of Turin-Milan and Bologne Florence HSL will be opened 
Then Turin-Milan Central Stn. will be 50 minutes. 
For those trains bypassing Milan via the Rho-Certosa, Lambrate-Rogoredo ceinture you will have to add another 15 minutes to reach Melegnano, where the HSL Mi-Bo begins.
The 1h 10 minutes from Turin to Melegnano - 1h 15 minutes = 75 minutes
1 hour Melegano Bologna Bypass 1h = 60 "
Bologa to Florence -Rovezzano 30 minutes = 30
Rovezzano to Rome junction to join
The Rome Naples AV 1 20 " = 80
Rome Naples Junction AV to Naples Central 1 10 = 70

total 

5h 15 315 minutes
Pushing it a bit, and not making allowances for late running you reduce the journey time of about 15-20 minutes , but at the risk of frequent late runnings
Now the lenght is:

Turin -Milan 153 km
Milan-Bologna 219 kms
Bolgna Flore new hsl 78,5 kms
Florence -Rome(termini) 252 Kms*
Rome HSL to Naples 222 Kms**

Total 924,5 kms
*924,5 kms : 5h = 184,5 km/h average speed*, *which given the features of the lines and of the trains used (ETR500) it is excellent.*


To reduce journey times you will have to increse the power output of the ET500 in consists of 12 carriages by at least 50%. And this extra power could not be of advantage on the DD high speed strech of 231 kms. However, this will be extremely useful during acceleration on the DD, and especially, on the newly built HS lines.


The other solution is to REDUCE the number of carriages to *5 1st class passenger carriages and 1 restaurant car.* 
So the superfast (or superfass") train wil consists of 2 locomotives + 6 carriages.

2 loco x 68 tons + 6 carriags weighing 42 tons each (empty) = 388 t / 8,800 kW power = Power/weight ratio of 22,6 kw/t. on the HSL and on the DD 22,6 kW/T up to 200kph and the on the same DD 11,8kW/with only one locomotive active above the 200kph mark.

This solution will allow a substantial reduction in journey time on the DD (Florence-Rome) , far better acceleration, and a possible speed increase to 320 km/h, as peak speed on some sections of the new HSL. 

The new HSL lines have a type of catenary not designed for sustained, frequent commercial 350km/h runnings. And this aspect ough to to be taken into due account.

For this specific purpose, a more powerful , lighter trains, with far better acceleration with can allor to rapidly reach the line present max spedd of 300kph, are needed. 

For a frequent commercial max speed of 350km/h, a change of catenary is also needed.

*Furthermore, such a superfast train might require about 2 paths, compared to the slower train max speed which have some peaks at 300kph, and TI might have to pay a double toll. 

It depends on the toll system agreed locally.*

*Therefore the cost/effectiveness of such modest increase in overall performance will have to be carefully estimated. *

I might prove to be too expensive to carry just 220-230 passengers at almost double the total running cost (dobule toll cost?), and of a considerable increase of energy consumption, excessive wear and tear of both rail system and train.

*At the moment, I believe REFI fot HST traiin running on HS lines charges TI about 13 Euro per km/train/path

Considering about 900k of HSLs (on Turin-Naples) @ 13 Euros/km it makes it 11,700 Euros, which at 2 paths will be 23,400 Euros*

Euros 23,400 : 230 passengers = 117 Euros per passenger/ path toll. And this will assume 100% full train seating/occupancy, as the Superfast ETR500 with have only 5 carriages transporting passengers, as above-mentioned. 

On the other hand, an ETR500 consist of 12 carriages with a top peak speeds of 300kph, will carry, let's say, 600 passengers. 

*So on the Turin-Naples *
Cost of 1 path: 11,700 Euros
*Euros 11,700 divided by 600 passengers (100% seat occupation) = 19.5 Euros/passenger of toll charges.*

Considering that, on a 12 carriages consists there will be 3-4 first class carriages or a mix of premium /first class carriages, with passengers paying between 130-200 euros each , the revenue of passengers travellning on first/premiun classes will be between 16, 900 and 26,000 Euros.

For the remaining 2nd class there will be 470 passengers.

Let's say 80 per cent of second class passengers will pay the full fare of second class ticket, at 90 Euros each.


= 376 passengers at Euros 90/per passenger = 33, 844 Euros

82 passenger "on special offer fare " at 33 Euros + Euros 2,706 Euros


Thus, cost of train path (toll) = Euro 11,700

Revenue formFirst/premium class Euros 26,000
" from 376 passengers 
@ 90 Euros each  Euros 33, 844 
from 82 passenger @ Euros 33 each Euros 2,706

Total revenue Euros 62,550

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not that feasible, unless the low cost flights between Turin and Naples disappear overnight.

And, unless there is either a drastic reducion in train fares, or a wide range of special offers it would be fairly difficult to fill in such a train from starting to end points.

No businessman wil pay 130 - 200 Euro from Turin to Naples, one way, for a journey of 5 hours.

Unless he has no other choice. It would also appear to be fairly dificult to fill in the 80% seats of the second class, charging one way tickets at 90 Euros. 

The ETR500 has a weight/seat capacity ratio of about 1/passenger /1 ton


The TGV Duplex is about 1 passenger/0.7 ton. And it can travel in double formation, thus carrying over a 1,000 passengers at 30% less of the passenger/weight ratio and at a 40% less cost for for path/passenger ratio.


The new TGV Duplex mini-jumbo will consist of 2 locomotives and 9 trailers, thus carrying 54 passengers more per set, or 108 for a double TGV set composition, compared to the older TGVs Double deckers. 

Sorry for the typos

Have a nice day! 
.......................................

PS For the time being Turin-Naples via Milan B-Florence Rome takes over 8 hours with Frccairossa AV fast "sic!"

http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/Ti...l=ABB&sort=0&economy=1&noreservation=0&npag=1
.............

* (Rome Termin will be bypassed , the train will pass through Rome Tiburtina and continue towards napples on the junctionto the HS RM-Naples aftr having bypapassed Rm- Termini


----------



## ETR401

Turin-Milan HSL 153 km. ??!!??:?


----------



## joseph1951

ETR401 said:


> Turin-Milan HSL 153 km. ??!!??:?


Yes about 153 kms. The HSL section is about 125 km long, and the end points of the HS line are on the historical line. 

I posted several links illustrating the drawings of the planned and constructed Italian HS Lines. 

I posted the links both in this forum and in the Italian section, on the Italian TAV thread.

Here is the "promised link" . The planned HSL is on page 2 of the pdf documents.

Obviously, the red line is the HSL. 

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/The new high speed TURIN - MILAN line.pdf


From the map, one can see that, near Rho, the HS line passes quite close to the orbital section of the motorway bypassing Milan, and heading towards Bergamo - Brescia -Verona ...and Venice...

It would have cost very little to build a couple of fast rail lines on the northen and southern sides of Milan to avoid the (in)famous bottleneck called Milan-Junction.......
Well...I'll guess we will survive.....

Have a nice evening!


----------



## Shezan

more pics, please


----------



## joseph1951

Shezan said:


> more pics, please


About Italian HSLs or about me???
Cheers!!!!!!!


----------



## Eddard Stark

For everyone information the "Frecciarossa" achieved the WORLD RECORD of speed in tunnels: 362 km/h on the new Bologna-Firenze line that will be opened in December

The line is almost completely underground as it has to pass the appenninnes.

This is also the italian speed record

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_...ia_8806fdfa-f2ce-11dd-8878-00144f02aabc.shtml


----------



## Coccodrillo

> achieved the WORLD RECORD of speed in tunnels


Except for Japan's maglev.


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## Eddard Stark

Coccodrillo said:


> Except for Japan's maglev.


Does it run in tunnels? anyway it's not operative...FI-BO will be soon


----------



## gramercy

Coccodrillo said:


> Except for Japan's maglev.


its meaningless to compare maglev records in any way with traditional rail records


oh, and congrats ferrossawhatever :cheers:


----------



## Coccodrillo

Eddard Stark said:


> Does it run in tunnels? anyway it's not operative...FI-BO will be soon


----------



## Eddard Stark

Coccodrillo said:


>


thank you I didn't know

Anyway a train is a train, the maglev is something else. We still have I think the world record for passenger train


----------



## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> For everyone information the "Frecciarossa" achieved the WORLD RECORD of speed in tunnels: 362 km/h on the new Bologna-Firenze line that will be opened in December
> 
> The line is almost completely underground as it has to pass the appenninnes.
> 
> This is also the italian speed record
> 
> http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_...ia_8806fdfa-f2ce-11dd-8878-00144f02aabc.shtml


Not quite so. There was a mistake. The ETR500 frecciasomething High Speed Fast (sic!) did not achieve the Worrld Record Speed in Tunnels of 362km/h, and this because, 


Firstly:

IT seems that the ETR500 record speed of 362km/h was achieved between 2 tunnels at km *26.149 BETWEEN the Crocioni Nord and Crocioni Sud tunnels, and 

Secondly:
The higher speed of 402 km/h between two(?) tunnels was achieved quite a while ago by an ICE2.

The FOL editor has apologised to his readers for the piece of news which was not checked for accuracy...Just for a change........

Another Trenitalia stunt?

Here is the link from the magazine quoted. A magazine you seems to know quite well. 
Also FOL is written in Italian...... 


http://www.ferrovie.it/ferrovie.vis/timdettvp.php?id=2543


You've got an extra few hundred kms/h to go before claiming some world records....

Keep practising.. and please let'us know when the freccia-something with a new a pink-nose livery matched by yellow skirts (designed by Armani or Gucci) to cover its bogies, reaches the 625.8 km/h between tunnels....
Have a nice day!*


----------



## Eddard Stark

Joseph less venom and more calm: I just saw the article. I also quoted FOL, assuming they had verified the information. I don't think I wrote "in your face Joseph you idiot look at this speed record", I just quoted the article...and I expect you behave in the same way 

Anyway it seems a very good result to achieve 362 km/h in the tunnels between Bologna and Firenze: this line is a engineering marvel of 80 km of almost uniterrupted tunnels between the 2 cities, many doubted the line could achieve more than 250 km/h, I think they received a very clear answer. Also if the ETR500 has such a horrible acceleration how come it reached this speed in just 80 km?

And this speed was achieved with a train which is almost the same that will run there for commercial purposes. By the way, an ETR500 you seem to hate so much


----------



## hans280

Eddard Stark said:


> Also if the ETR500 has such a horrible acceleration how come it reached this speed in just 80 km?


Eddard, you've lost me. If a train cannot accelerate to a given speed in 80 km then I very much doubt that it can accelerate to this speed at all. I seem to remember that someone told me the ETR500 needs just under 20 km to reach 300 km/h - can anyone confirm or reject this? It's still slow compared with the Velaro which, as I posted elswere, I personally saw accelerate from 200 to 320 km/h in less than a minute.


----------



## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> Eddard, you've lost me. If a train cannot accelerate to a given speed in 80 km then I very much doubt that it can accelerate to this speed at all. I seem to remember that someone told me the ETR500 needs just under 20 km to reach 300 km/h - can anyone confirm or reject this? It's still slow compared with the Velaro which, as I posted elswere, I personally saw accelerate from 200 to 320 km/h in less than a minute.


80 km is the whole lenght of the line...and the line is quite extraordinary as it runs almost completely in tunnels (73km on 78km). So the train accelerated at 362 and than decelerated in this short line. Some even doubted that was possible...as they doubted this line was made for more than 250km/h

I cannot help you on the ETR point...I will ask on the italian forum. What is clear is that a (almost) normal ETR500 can reach 362 km/h which is not so bad. This is not a modified version, I think it only lacks a few wagons from the normal 12...


----------



## dreaad

^^ ETR Y1 train who did the italian record has 8 carriages, so the same as a standard TGV composition.

about ETR 500 acceleration with 12 carriages...on the bologna-milan HSL (note the limit at the beginning near modena @ 240 km/h)










but this is clearer (note the full acceleration on the HSL in the opposite direction with respect to the first)










so for the 12 carriages composition it is resonable that a full acceleration to 300 km/h requires 20-25 km, so joseph was wrong when he said 


joseph1951 said:


> [...]
> 
> The ETR500 has a very sluggish acceleration from 160km/h to 300km/h and, from 160 km/h to 300km/h it has to* run about 50 km!*
> 
> [...]


----------



## hans280

Eddard Stark said:


> 80 km is the whole lenght of the line...and the line is quite extraordinary as it runs almost completely in tunnels (73km on 78km). So the train accelerated at 362 and than decelerated in this short line. Some even doubted that was possible...as they doubted this line was made for more than 250km/h.


Point taken, Eddard, though as far as I know you need some 5-7 km to "decelerate" to an absolute halt from 300+ km/h. So, if you're not careful you'll find yourself celebrating the fact that the ETRs can accelerate to their top speed in only 75 km....  

What interests me a great deal more is the new top speed of those lines. We used to tell each other - I agree there - that it will be "250 to 300 km/h". Now, it appears, 300 km/h has been fixed as the new standard. - Or, I should be even bolder, seeing as new lines are normally tested at Vmax + 10%, they could even do 320 km/h between Florence and Bologna.


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## dreaad

320 km/h between florence and bologna is useless, even if almost the entire italian high speed network permits this speed... it's not sure yet if the definitive commercial speed will be 250 or 300 (concerning only this line)


----------



## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> 1-
> *Joseph less venom and more calm: I just saw the article.* I also quoted FOL, assuming they had verified the information. I don't think I wrote "*in your face Joseph you idiot look at this speed record", I just quoted the article...and I expect you behave in the same way *
> 
> 2-
> Anyway it seems a very good result to achieve 362 km/h in the tunnels between Bologna and Firenze: *this line is a engineering marvel of 80 km of almost uniterrupted tunnels between the 2 cities, many doubted the line could achieve more than 250 km/h, I think they received a very clear answer. Also if the ETR500 has such a horrible acceleration how come it reached this speed in just 80 km?*
> 
> 3-
> 
> "And this speed was achieved with a train which is almost the same that will run there for commercial purposes. "
> 
> 4 -
> By the way, an ETR500 you seem to hate so much


===========================================

Replies unedited to the points you raised. 


First of all let me than for the "you idiot ..etc" ........ which you used in replying to me.
An expression perhaps a bit ambiguous ,..... to say the least, but perhaps somewhat revealing of your character.

======================================= 
A) 
*This is what you have written in your previous post*
" Quote:
_Originally Posted by Eddard Stark 
*For everyone information the "Frecciarossa" achieved the WORLD RECORD of speed in tunnels: 362 km/h on the new Bologna-Firenze line that will be opened in December*
*The line is almost completely underground as it has to pass the appenninnes.

This is also the italian speed record*

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_f...4f02aabc.shtml "_

End of your first quote.

---------------
My replies:

Then 
1- 
No venom, just facts. The article was known to be flawed. The errata corridge is on the same page on the main article. You coul have not possiby missed it.

2- 

To achieve a 362 km/h on a train on a reduced formation on a new line, just built, and with no traffic is nothing new. 

The ICE 1 with 2 locos and a few carriages achieved about 47km/h more than the ETR500, in reduced formation, and this well over a decade ago....

Testing a new line max speed with a given train is quite different than the speed achievable in full commercial service.

3- 
_Again quoting from your post:_

" _And this speed was achieved with a train which *is almost **the same *that will run there for commercial purposes._ "
#

My reply, first draft -unedited

*"Reduced formation".*

_Well I always maintained that:_


- The ETR500 in consist of 2 locomotives + 10-12 carriages is to heavy and has a power to ratio of about 13.7/kw/t (on 25kV AC) and of about 6,75kW /t, on 3000 volt DC.

It is an heavy conventional medium-to-high speed train.. It is very similar, albeit inferior, to the ICE1.

*As such, in order to make it go faster, or to have greater top speed, and far better acceleration, you wll have either:*
i) To add extra motors on the bogies under the passenger carriages

or:

ii) To remove 4-6 carriages from the train in consist of 2 locos and 12 carriages.

*Examples:*

A)
*2 locos + 6 carriages *, under 25kV AC will develop 8,800kw, and the train, on such reduced formation, *will weight 388 tons* (locos 68 tons x2) + (carriages 42 tons each x6) 

*Then the power to weight ratio will be: (8,800: 388) = 22.6kW/t*

B) 
* On compos of 2 locos + 2 carriages:*

Locos 68 x 2 = 136 t
2 carriages 42x2 = 84 t

Total weight = 220 t
*Power to weight ratio (8,800 : 220) 40kw/t.*


Then, 
*if* the bogies are stable, and are equipped with reinforced dampers (the bogies tend to behave like a snake at very high speed), 
*and if *the catenary is strengthened, 
*and if *the electrical tension is increased.......you might be able to reach speeds of over 500km/h.

Which, anyway, will be of no immediate practical use in commercial service.

The newly built - or "soon" to be completed Italian mixed-traffic HSLs have a top design speed, ("*the ceiling speed") * of 300km/h. 

They do not have a top commercial speed of 300km/h on revenue runnings. 

One must make allowance for late running, slack times, etc.

*Also even the NTV AGV has a top sped of 300km/h.*

Both Trenitalia and NTV will run trains at the same maximum speed.

*Here is the timetable of NTV's train due to enter in service in 2011.*

NTV timetable for 2011 (with AVG) 


http://www.ntvspa.it/ntvupload/utils/Città-Tempi-Frequenze-Alta-Velocità-NTV.pdf

http://www.ntvspa.it/it/nuovo-trasp...rroviarie-alta-velocità-città-stazioni-tratte

-------------
In my very modest opinion, the ETR500 is a downrated version of the ICE1. Its carriages are about 20 cm narrower than those of the ICE 1, the second class seats are quite antiergonomic, and the combination of a single saloon with narrow carriages, increases the feeling of both tunnel effect and crampiness (or crampyness..).
I believe that its best usage would be for long distance non-stop trains running at medium-hign speed of 250 km/h, with dashes at 280kmph to make up time , in case of late runnings.

For this purposes the second class interiors have to be changed, in carraiges all saloons, others in semi-saloons, other in compartments.

In such a case THE etr500 would be best used in long distance journeys such as:

i) - *Milan Central-Rome Termni*, in 3hrs at an average speed of about 180-190km/h

ii-) *Milan Central - Naples Central * in 4h 10m, or 4 hrs flat, at an average speed of just under, or just above 200km/h. 

Or 
iii -) *Turin Central- Naples Central*, via Milan Junction, in *5hrs 20 **minutes*, at an averagae speed of about 170km/h.

In second class, the ETR500 is not as comfortable as the ICE 1, it is also less powerful and carries less passengers than the latter.

It also less poweful than the TGV 2 Niveaux, and it cost more than the TGV, it carries less passenger per ton of train (-40%), also has far lower performance than the latter, etc, etc.

Talgos with vmax of 250km/h, Talgos 350, and in* the future Talgos 380, Chinese, French, Japanese (yes *Japanese) , Korean HS trains etc, are all far superior, in every respect, to the ETR500 - a project which -according to the late Professor Giovanni Klaus Koening: author of the book "Beyond the Pendolino - had too many fathers. 

The combinations of train types, type of lines, transits over junctions which have no HS flyovers, the underground crossings of medium size stations, at excruciating low speeds, are all factors *preventing to achieve better average speeds than those officially published.*

It would appear that your quarrel is not with me but with those politicians, technicians, engineers, etc, who have planned and built both the train and the infrastructure.

To debate about very conjectural increases of average HST commercial speeds in a nation which does not have a moderrn, capillary and efficient rail network, but has an excess of motorways, compared to its land surface appears to be fairly futile.

In house building, before building the roof you have to lay down the foundation.
It would appear than in the Italian HSL lines are just a few stretches of rails, in a Country which has a third world rail network. 
The construction of the HSLs lines wa carried out at the expeses of the historical languishing and feable rail network. 

In Italy the concept of intermodal transportation is still in an early embrionic phase......

I wish you a nice evening.


----------



## joseph1951

dreaad said:


> ^^ ETR Y1 train who did the italian record has 8 carriages, so the same as a standard TGV composition.
> 
> about ETR 500 acceleration with 12 carriages...on the bologna-milan HSL (note the limit at the beginning near modena @ 240 km/h)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but this is clearer (note the full acceleration on the HSL in the opposite direction with respect to the first)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so for the 12 carriages composition it is resonable that a full acceleration to 300 km/h requires 20-25 km, so joseph was wrong when he said


.....................

====================================================
First draft /unedited

REPLY FROM JOSEPH

Joseph has posted, in several topics, both in this thread and in the Italian section, on the Italian AV thread, the official acceleration curve of the ETR500 on the Turin-Milan route. 

On the Turin-Milan the ETR500 is used only with 8 carriages.

The same acceleration curve, which was obtained from the tachometer of the train, is also posted on FOL.

The acceleration curve posted by me reflects the technical specifications of the ETR500. 

It is not an acceleraton curve which I have somehow designed, or extrapolated from a device.

I have also posted the official technical specifications and performance of the HS lines/train, and undercrossings.

From those legal and official documents repeatedly posted, it is quite clearly, visibile, specified and understandable that the through crossing at Bologna, Florence, at Termini, and Afragola will not reduce the journey times from end point to end point.

Also I have posted the train timetable from both TI and NTV, for the latter, I posted the timetable for the year 2011


It does not take a great genius to see that, at the completion of the HS line, the journey time between Turin and Milan will be of 1h (for 153 Km) and that, in France on the LGV ESt a stretch of about 179km long is covered in about 36 minutes, from start to stop. 
At an average speed of over 270km/h

*Controversely, the Rome -Naples HSL is 205 km long. 

The official journey time given is 1h 10 minutes, at an average speed of 175.71 km/h. 

As per official documentation posted.*

*This does not give me any problem whatsoever. But it seems to trouble you*.
Top speed per se is fairly irrelevant. There are other factors to be taken into consideration.

Your quarrel is not with me. But with the official data. 

You might well succeed in convincing the world thatItaly has the best HS trains of the planet Earth, and also that these trains were designed by Pinninfarina,...... and repainted 5 times...etc.

But the arithmetic will remaing the same.

However you are entitled to dream.....if it makes you feel better.

=====================================================

NTV timetable for 2011 (with AVG) 


http://www.ntvspa.it/ntvupload/utils/Città-Tempi-Frequenze-Alta-Velocità-NTV.pdf

http://www.ntvspa.it/it/nuovo-trasp...rroviarie-alta-velocità-città-stazioni-tratte

-----------------------------
One can clearly see that in 2011, the journey time between Venice and Rome will be 4h and 5minutes for 490.5 km (the New Bologna Florence line is shorter than the historical line) 

Average speed 120.12 km/h.

Rome -Naples 205 km in 70 mins. 
Average speed 175.71 km/h

Naples - Salerno (length 50kms?). The journey time will be reduce from 35 mins to 30 minutes. Average speed: at best 100km/h.
High Speed?

In China they do over 120 kms in 30 minutes.

Bologna -Florence HSL 78.5 km in about 35 minutes.
Average speed 134.57km/h

Calais-Lille : about 101 km from station to station in less than 30 minutes.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Paxromana said:


> Da Trainzitalia. Nick: E.655.540


...


----------



## gramercy

is that a bridge over nothing?


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## GENIUS LOCI

gramercy said:


> is that a bridge over nothing?


It is over Po river... from this point of view you can't see it 

(in following pic the bridge u/c)


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## joseph1951

gramercy said:


> is that a bridge over nothing?


Is the usual bridge built on the River Po depicting the ETR500 red arrow high speed (alta velocita') *fast*.

It's a beautiful bridge by Calatrava, but it is the same picutre posted over and over again.......
cheers!!!


----------



## gramercy

thx


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## GENIUS LOCI

joseph1951 said:


> It's a beautiful bridge by Calatrava


It's not by Calatrava


> but it is the same picutre posted over and over again.......
> cheers!!!


I'm sorry: I thought sometimes nice pics can be way more interesting than dozens polemical posts telling the same thing, over and over again

Doubble :cheers: :cheers:


----------



## Eddard Stark

GENIUS LOCI said:


> It's not by Calatrava
> I'm sorry: I thought sometimes nice pics can be way more interesting than dozens polemical posts telling the same thing, over and over again
> 
> Doubble :cheers: :cheers:


quote:cheers:


----------



## gincan

Eddard Stark said:


> For everyone information the "Frecciarossa" achieved the WORLD RECORD of speed in tunnels: 362 km/h on the new Bologna-Firenze line that will be opened in December
> 
> The line is almost completely underground as it has to pass the appenninnes.
> 
> This is also the italian speed record
> 
> http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_...ia_8806fdfa-f2ce-11dd-8878-00144f02aabc.shtml


Well it is an Italian record for sure but that speed has been exceeded on numerous ocasions during the test runs on the Madrid-Barcelona HSR line. There are several tunnels on the sections that are designed for 350km/h and during the testings with Vmax + 10% they ran through the tunnels at 385km/h.


----------



## Eddard Stark

gincan said:


> Well it is an Italian record for sure but that speed has been exceeded on numerous ocasions during the test runs on the Madrid-Barcelona HSR line. There are several tunnels on the sections that are designed for 350km/h and during the testings with Vmax + 10% they ran through the tunnels at 385km/h.


I'm sure FS referred to a railway line completely in tunnel. Anyway a few post before there was an update: actually the world record is of ICE that reached above 400 km/h in a tunnel section

Let me add thought that the Bologna-Firenze IS basically a tunnel (with a few windows) 80 km long...so it's quite different froma line with "some" tunnels


----------



## Verso

^^ It's an HSR in Gardaland.


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## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> I'm sure FS referred to a railway line completely in tunnel.
> 
> 1-*Anyway a few post before there was an update: actually the world record is of ICE that reached above 400 km/h in a tunnel section*
> Let me add thought that the Bologna-Firenze IS basically a tunnel (with a few windows) 80 km long...so it's quite different froma line with "some" tunnels


*
As I posted in the appropriate forum? It was the IC2 . *

Il Corriere della Sera e FOL dovrebbero essere un tantino piu' precisi nel diffondere le notizie. A livello internazionale la stampa italiana non e' il massimo.....E gli stunt pubblicitari di MM ormai lasciano il tempo che trovano.
Per anni sul Totem della C.le si leggeva: Mi-BO = *in 1 ora. ..*
Poi il 14-12 -2008 - MI-O AV = 65 minuti??
Ma che bravi!!!!!
Consiglirei a MM di andarsi a guardare i caroselli TV degli anni 70.


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## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> I told you...between Milan and Bologna in a few days average speed will be more than 200 km/h
> 
> If you refer to the other 2 new AV lines open (Torino-Milano and Roma-Napoli) in reality they are not completed: the Torino Milano is only 2/3 completed.
> 
> 1-
> 
> *it takes only 25 minutes to go from Turin to Novara where the new line stops (so 216km/h average speed)*.
> 
> 2-
> 
> The Roma-Napoli is almost completed, but 20 km are not. The "official" time to make the 220km is 1h and 27minutes but in reality more often than not it takes just 1h and 10-15 minutes. When the last 20 km will be finished it will be 1 hour, so more than 200 km/h average speed.
> 
> To summarize: the 2 existing line are not complited, the first new AV line in Italy will be opened in a matter of days (if we exclude the slower Firenze-Roma finished in 1992)


1- And when the last 30-35 km of the Turin Milan will be completed (fromNovara to Rho) and the full line will be operational it will take 50 minutes or the entire journey from end point to end point. 

2- Rome Naples HSL 
Total length 205km. Journey time 1h 10 minutes, for the superfast trains when the entire line is fully operational. 

At the moment there are 185 kms out of 205 kms of line which are allegedly cleared for 300 km/h *And this produce a total journey time of 1h and 27 minutes ???*

At 300km/h it takes 37 minutes to cover 185 kms.
So why it takes *50 minutes *(fifty minutes) cover the last 20km to Naples ?
*20 kms in 50 minutes = 24 km/h*


*Please note that, in 1829, the "Rocket" was doing much better*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephenson's_Rocket



For a line of 205 km long cleared for 300-km/h (and 350 km/h - according to some of you ) the journey time should be respectively of 45- 40 minutes.

Note that the on the 303 km of the LGV est the journey time between Paris Gare de l'Est to Metz is about 1h 10 min - 1h 15 minutes. 
On this line the top commercial speed is only 320km/h ...and it can be raised of 10-15% in case of late runnings......

========================================================
In the late 70 and 80 the journey times on the historical line Roma -Naples via Formia were 1h 30 minutes . In the 70s the top speed on this line was limited to 160km/h on some stretches. 

In the 80s and 90s on some sections of the Rome -Naples vai Formia the speed was raised to 180km/h.

Why not to use the Old Rome -Naples via Formia (built in the early 30s) *as a "New HSL", and the New HS/HC line as a SLOW freight line? *

FS has some serious explaining to do. Based on simple arithmetic.


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## rgh89778

Now is important Milano TAV station in Repubblica Square. Project are alredy. The station will be a transit station


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## GENIUS LOCI

rgh89778 said:


> Now is important Milano TAV station in Repubblica Square. Project are alredy. The station will be a transit station


I just can believe this man re-registered to troll around even in international forum in English hno:


----------



## hans280

joseph1951 said:


> For a line of 205 km long cleared for 300-km/h (and 350 km/h - according to some of you ) the journey time should be respectively of 45- 40 minutes.
> 
> Note that the on the 303 km of the LGV est the journey time between Paris Gare de l'Est to Metz is about 1h 10 min - 1h 15 minutes.
> On this line the top commercial speed is only 320km/h ...and it can be raised of 10-15% in case of late runnings......


Mmmmwell, Joseph, methinks you're mixing apples and oranges. As we both know, you never realise an effective speed anywhere near the top speed of a HS train: there's acceleration, deceleration and the need to build a few time buffers into the time plan. Moreover, if you drive FROM a city-centre station TO a city-centre station then you are going to get an even greater discrepancy due to the time "wasted" on rolling 100 km/h, or thereabout, through the suburbs. (This is one of my main arguments for generally not letting HS trains run through the incumbent stations in the city centres, BTW....) I don't think you'll get an effective speed on, say, Rome-Naples that is significantly above 200 km/h - regardless of the quality of the tracks.

As for the LGV-Est, well, you actually play right into my court. The time you quote is - as far as I can see - not between Paris Gare de l'Est and Metz centre, but between GdE and the new dedicated HS station between Metz and Nancy? The best travel time between Paris and Metz centre that I'm aware of is 1h 24m. As far as I know the line is about 325 km long, so it's still a much better effective speed than Rome-Naples and Milan-Turin, but a fair bit beneath 300 km/h nevertheless. 

As for the trains beign allowed to exceed 320 km/h on LGV-Est in case of delay - that's more than I know. Are you sure? From what I read the line is technically prepared for 350 km/h but not yet approved for these speeds. (This would, with current rolling stocks, mean that the Germans could roll faster in France than SNCF. Oh, horror horribilis...:lol If true then trains are currently not allowed to drive faster than 320 km/h - not even in emergencies.


----------



## mozatellac

joseph1951 said:


> Note that the on the 303 km of the LGV est the journey time between Paris Gare de l'Est to Metz is about 1h 10 min - 1h 15 minutes.
> On this line the top commercial speed is only 320km/h ...and it can be raised of 10-15% in case of late runnings......


Nope : the top commercial speed is 320 km/h, even if the line could be easily ("software only") upgraded to 350 km/h. The COVIT (contrôle de vitesse = speed control) triggers the emergency break as soon as the speed exceeds 335 km/h. Moreover, any driver who would willingly exceed the speed limit (320 km/h) regularly would be quite quickly reprimanded by his boss.

A better comparison would be Paris - Le Mans : 202 km in 54' ; 20 km of non high-speed line (160 km/h max) between Connerré and Le Mans.

As a French rail fan, I do not really understand why HSR performs so bad in Italy ; are there still points on your rail network that need strong upgrades, or is this due to more "cultural" concerns (even in France, trains don't run as properly near Marseilles as near Strasbourg, due to a more "latin" culture) ?


----------



## joseph1951

mozatellac said:


> Nope : the top commercial speed is 320 km/h, even if the line could be easily ("software only") upgraded to 350 km/h. The COVIT (contrôle de vitesse = speed control) triggers the emergency break as soon as the speed exceeds 315 km/h. Moreover, any driver who would willingly exceed the speed limit (320 km/h) regularly would be quite quickly reprimanded by his boss.
> 
> A better comparison would be Paris - Le Mans : 202 km in 54' ; 20 km of non high-speed line (160 km/h max) between Connerré and Le Mans.
> 
> As a French rail fan, I do not really understand why HSR performs so bad in Italy ; are there still points on your rail network that need strong upgrades, or is this due to more "cultural" concerns (even in France, trains don't run as properly near Marseilles as near Strasbourg, due to a more "latin" culture) ?


AS far as I know extensive runnings at 360km/h have been carried out at 360km/h, using the Duplex TGV POS (I believe it was mentioned in Today's Railways Europe).
Regards,


----------



## mozatellac

joseph1951 said:


> AS far as I know extensive runnings at 360km/h have been carried out at 360km/h, using the Duplex TGV POS (I believe it was mentioned in Today's Railways Europe).
> Regards,


Yes but it was only test runnings (mainly to test the new TGV POS and DASYE). Current commercial runnings do not exceed 320 km/h, even when running late (sorry guys for the off-topic).


----------



## hans280

mozatellac said:


> The COVIT (contrôle de vitesse = speed control) triggers the emergency break as soon as the speed exceeds 315 km/h.


Surely not? If so, does it apply to French trains only? I ask because I've been taking the ICE3 trains to Frankfurt a couple of times. They have a speed indicator in their cabin and I can attest to the fact that they were driving 320.00 km/h for significant parts of the trip between Paris and Baudrecourt. 



mozatellac said:


> As a French rail fan, I do not really understand why HSR performs so bad in Italy ; are there still points on your rail network that need strong upgrades, or is this due to more "cultural" concerns (even in France, trains don't run as properly near Marseilles as near Strasbourg, due to a more "latin" culture) ?


Based on the earlier discussions on this thread I'd say the consensus seems to be building that there are two main causes. First, you don't have long stretches of uninterrupted HSL like in France and increasingly Spain. It will improve in the years to come, but trains still have to slow down in the city centres of Milan, Bologna, Florence and Rome. Secondly, the ETR500 trains are underpowered; they do reasonably well up to 200 km/h but accelerate extremely slowly thereafter. Taken in conjunction with the previous point, the effect of this is considerable. (You may compare with the German ICE3 auto-motored train, which jumps like a rabbit out of each station.) Finally, the old Direttissima HS like between Rome and Florence it not (or not yet...) equipped for speeds at 300 km/h. 

As for "latin" culture, I don't think it has anything to do with the effective speed of the trains - once on the tracks. It may have something to do with the facts that FS usually complete its construction projects 2-5 years behind scedule. :lol:


----------



## mozatellac

hans280 said:


> Surely not? If so, does it apply to French trains only? I ask because I've been taking the ICE3 trains to Frankfurt a couple of times. They have a speed indicator in their cabin and I can attest to the fact that they were driving 320.00 km/h for significant parts of the trip between Paris and Baudrecourt.


Sorry, I was thinking of the other French HSL, where the speed limit is 300km/h (apart from a short stretch on LGV Med). On the LGV Est, the COVIT brakes from 335km/h.


----------



## joseph1951

hans280 said:


> Surely not? If so, does it apply to French trains only? I ask because I've been taking the ICE3 trains to Frankfurt a couple of times. They have a speed indicator in their cabin and I can attest to the fact that they were driving 320.00 km/h for significant parts of the trip between Paris and Baudrecourt.
> 
> 
> 
> Based on the earlier discussions on this thread I'd say the consensus seems to be building that there are two main causes. First, you don't have long stretches of uninterrupted HSL like in France and increasingly Spain. It will improve in the years to come, but trains still have to slow down in the city centres of Milan, Bologna, Florence and Rome. Secondly, the ETR500 trains are underpowered; they do reasonably well up to 200 km/h but accelerate extremely slowly thereafter. Taken in conjunction with the previous point, the effect of this is considerable. (You may compare with the German ICE3 auto-motored train, which jumps like a rabbit out of each station.) Finally, the old Direttissima HS like between Rome and Florence it not (or not yet...) equipped for speeds at 300 km/h.
> 
> As for "latin" culture, I don't think it has anything to do with the effective speed of the trains - once on the tracks. *It may have something to do with the facts that FS usually complete its construction projects 2-5 years behind scedule. :lol:*



Sometimes it takes more than 3-5 years... for example in the case of the Direttissima Florence -Rome.

FS engineers have carried out extensive studies and projects on HSL's from the 50s until the mid 70s.

For instance, the final project (I believe by Edoardo Mori) of the upgrading of the Verona-Innsbruck-Munich was unanimously approved by the three administrations in 1974... (FS-UIC-74).

Now, on the Verona, side they don't have built much...yet, although there are many ongoing debates with the local authorities....

We will have to see.

The Italian decision making bureaucratic processes are fairly slow, perhaps historically influenced also by the presence of the Vatican. 

After all what difference 20 or 30 years can make, compared to Eternity? 

Take it from a Catholic.

Have a nice week-end.


----------



## Eddard Stark

mozatellac said:


> As a French rail fan, I do not really understand why HSR performs so bad in Italy ; are there still points on your rail network that need strong upgrades, or is this due to more "cultural" concerns (even in France, trains don't run as properly near Marseilles as near Strasbourg, due to a more "latin" culture) ?


maybe because it's not finished yet?

True, there is also the decision to run trains through the city centers of the main cities. as Hans knows very well, there were very good geographical and demographic reasons for doing so.

Anyway travelling time between Rome and Naples will be 1 hour and it is a 225 km long railway, it does not seem to me a bad time at all. (225 km/h commercial speed) considering it includes about 20 km of urban railway links (205 AV line+urban connection in Rome+urban connection in Naples)

Thoeretically the journery time will be even shorter between Rome Tiburtina and Naples Afragola stations, the non-terminal AV stations of the 2 cities


----------



## hans280

Eddard Stark said:


> True, there is also the decision to run trains through the city centers of the main cities. as Hans knows very well, there were very good geographical and demographic reasons for doing so.


I'll concede half of the point: there are geographic (and topographic) reasons for doing so. On the other hand, I would argue that the demographic case for running trains via the centres of Bologna and Florence is not stronger than, for example, running Madrid-Barcelona through downtown Zaragoza.


----------



## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> I'll concede half of the point: there are geographic (and topographic) reasons for doing so. On the other hand, I would argue that the demographic case for running trains via the centres of Bologna and Florence is not stronger than, for example, running Madrid-Barcelona through downtown Zaragoza.


Bologna underground station will connect all the italian AV and non AV main lines...in a way is like Lille, where AV lines from Amsterdaam, London and Paris meet.

In our case is Turin-Milan, Germany-Verona, Trieste-Venezia, Adriatic line and Firenze-Roma-Napoli line

Here is the map of the lines involved...not all of them of course are HSR lines


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## Eddard Stark

And here the (more or less...sorry not everything is correct) project for the Bologna connection

HSR line will have a dedicated path never touching the other standard lines (in green). There will be basically 2-4 tracks completely dedicated to HSR trains.

The HSR main line (Milano-Roma) will connect with interconnections (without interferences) with 2 other lines going to and from Verona and Venice.

Only HSR trains will stop at the 4 tracks of the underground BOlogna station, U/C under the existing surface station. The surface station will serve all normal trains running on the "green lines" and the locals. 

So HSR trains will never criss cross other kind of trains in Bologna, they will have dedicated (new) rails and a dedicated (new) station. 

A tunnel will pass under Bologna and run to the line to Florence which is almost completely underground because of the orography (as you can see mountains loom over BOlogna)


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## hans280

^^So, I take it the main problem (with speed) derives from the curve radius where the line swings west toward the Apennines? After all, the non-stop trains from Paris to Marseille gush through Lyon-St Exupery at full speed. The same would in theory be possible between Emilia-Romagna and Lazio, so the difference must be that they have hade to make concessions concerning the line. - Your wretched "geography" again...


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## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> ^^So, I take it the main problem (with speed) derives from the curve radius where the line swings west toward the Apennines? After all, the non-stop trains from Paris to Marseille gush through Lyon-St Exupery at full speed. The same would in theory be possible between Emilia-Romagna and Lazio, so the difference must be that they have hade to make concessions concerning the line. - Your wretched "geography" again...


well the point is that we don't know yet since right now HSR trains coming from Milan have to slow down at the beginning of this above map, get on the "green" line, stop at the "green station" and go to Florence through the existing (surface) line instead the tunnel.

In fact the tunnel-line to Florence will open in December and the dedicated HSR line within Bologna proper (including the tunnel you can see above) and the new HSR underground station only in 2011

So even at the end of the year there will be the missing link of Bologna connection, resulting probably still in longer travelling time...because HSR trains will have to get into the messy and congested surface station where 8 tracks serve trains from all Italy (now it's 8 tracks because under 4 former tracks they are building the HSR station...they used to be more)

The line to Rome will be finished in reality in 2011, by then we shall see the real potential of the italian AV line


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## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> ^^So, I take it the main problem (with speed) derives from the curve radius where the line swings west toward the Apennines? After all, the non-stop trains from Paris to Marseille gush through Lyon-St Exupery at full speed. The same would in theory be possible between Emilia-Romagna and Lazio, so the difference must be that they have hade to make concessions concerning the line. - Your wretched "geography" again...


I forgot...it's not a matter of concession. Milan is northwest of Bologna and Florence is south...the line has to turn that way there are no options but skipping Bologna completely...and making the tunnels even longer since between Florence and Bologna is where appennines are shallower and shorter


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## Eddard Stark

Finally as you can see from the map above there was another reason to build the line this way.

The HSR Bologna-Firenze will not serve only the Milano-Rome line (the main line of Italy) but also the Germany-Verona-Roma line and the Trieste-Venezia-Bologna-Roma line

So a train coming from Rome will do HSR line to Florence and Bologna, stop at HSR underground station then with an underground connection get to Venice on the "standard" line (or to Verona and the brenner pass)

So the Bologna Firenze as it has been planned serves in reality 3 lines in north Italy all converging on the HSR underground station.

Also people coming from all the small cities of the plain of the Po will be able to get with IC or regional trains to the "surface" Bologna station and then catch an HSR to Rome/Milan/Venice/Verona in the underground station

That's the meaning and the reason for creating this gigantic "rail hub". The main rail hub of south Europe


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## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> Bologna underground station will connect all the italian AV and non AV main lines...in a way is like Lille, where AV lines from Amsterdaam, London and Paris meet.
> 
> In our case is Turin-Milan, Germany-Verona, Trieste-Venezia, Adriatic line and Firenze-Roma-Napoli line
> 
> Here is the map of the lines involved...not all of them of course are HSR lines


The red dotted line indicating the Italian HSLs re somwewhat misleading. 

1- The *Turin -Milan the HSL section *is only 125 km long. It starts after Turin and ends some 20km north of Milan Central at Rho -Fiera.

The ofificial maps and technicall specifications have been posted earlier in this thread.


Thus the red dotted line indicating the HSL crossing section avoiding Milan Central is somewhat inaccurate. 

From Rho -Fiera (where the Turin- Milan HSL section ends) to Melegano, where the Milan-Bologna HSL begins, there are about 34 km to be crosssed slowly at speeds as low as 60-80km. 

*The Milan Bologna (2nd HSL section)*

2-It is 182 km long section, 130 of which authorised for ceiling speed of 300km/h. From Reggio Emilia the trains will have to slow down to negotiate the subsequent "large" Modena curve which imposes a speed restriction of about 240 km/h . On the *large Modena curve the train will have to slow down further to reach Lavino *at speed not excceding 160-200 km/h. On the surface, the Lavino -Bologna surface historical section is only 10km long.

3-
The red dotted line from Bologna to Florence is somewhat indicative of the HSL Bologna- Florence.


*All the other red dotted lines, such as the: 

Bologna-Verona-Trento (To Brenner pass) , 

The Bologna-Padua-Venice- Trieste, and 

The Bologna -Rimini -Ancona ( Bari/Lecce) are NOT REFERRING to HSL lines*.

The first map is at best misleading. Certainly creative. 

Have e nice day


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## Eddard Stark

Of course, I wrote "not all the lines are HSR". These are the main lines converging into Bologna. I will make a better map with existing, U/C AV lines and the old traditional ones...give me time.

The purpose of the map is showing people which are not familiar with Italian geography of the reason why Bologna is such an important railways hub: 5 very important lines (some of them international) converge on it. Acually a few more smaller lines do too, as you probably know very well.

The 5 red lines are those important lines...they are not all HSR but they are all very important and sometime in the future they may all become HSR


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## Eddard Stark

Anyway if you missed it here he is with the railway hat on :lol::lol::lol:

I know, he may look foolish but I think it's a great PR man...he knows how to make fun of himself. 

The train was - as I wrote - *the first one to go from Milan to Rome in only 3 hours*

(someone thought it impossible)

From December this will be the time between the 2 cities, probably skipping Florence (yet to be seen)

Ah, I was forgetting: the man standing is Moretti, the head of italian FS. He was appointed by the leftist previous government but Berlusconi (so far) has kept him in place. His tenure is...well, controversial. He surely is confronting existing habits (especially from politicians) to have services with little traffic and a lot of costs, for this reason he is also very despised. He is supervising however the launch of the "frecciarossa" service, so far quite successful.


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## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> Anyway if you missed it here he is with the railway hat on :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> I know, he may look foolish but I think it's a great PR man...he knows how to make fun of himself.
> 
> The train was - as I wrote - *the first one to go from Milan to Rome in only 3 hours*
> 
> (someone thought it impossible)
> 
> From December this will be the time between the 2 cities, probably skipping Florence (yet to be seen)
> 
> Ah, I was forgetting: the man standing is Moretti, the head of italian FS. He was appointed by the leftist previous government but Berlusconi (so far) has kept him in place. His tenure is...well, controversial. He surely is confronting existing habits (especially from politicians) to have services with little traffic and a lot of costs, for this reason he is also very despised. He is supervising however the launch of the "frecciarossa" service, so far quite successful.



1- Transit of the Berlusconian ETR500 HP (High Personalities) Mi-Rome 3h at Firenze Castello Byapssing HS Station 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACFuG4SMAJ8

2- Transit (2nd Florentine urban area) on the new dedicated HS tracks of the Berlusconian train (2nd urban transit avoiding Florence Termini - I:E: Firenze SMN). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDOCGt9CMwg&feature=related

One can see that it takes about 1 minute for the train to cross the peripheral Florentine station on dedicated tracks, and at ultra fast snail speed, in reverse. At the end of the video on can see that, after teeh crossing in the station , the subsequent top speed towards Rovezzano Rovezzano is 90-95-100km/h .
Just after Rovezzano the "Old" High speed Florence -Rome - capable of only 250km/h, begins. 
It was on the section Rovezzano-Rome that the best average speed of this faboulous train was achieved. 

Non on the empty and new section Milan -Florence AV/AC.

AV: Alta Velocita' o Alta Voracita' (AV: High Velocity or High Voracity)?

This is the (first) question..


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## Eddard Stark

joseph1951 said:


> 1- Transit of the Berlusconian ETR500 HP (High Personalities) Mi-Rome 3h at Firenze Castello Byapssing HS Station
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACFuG4SMAJ8
> 
> 2- Transit (2nd Florentine urban area) on the new dedicated HS tracks of the Berlusconian train (2nd urban transit avoiding Florence Termini - I:E: Firenze SMN).
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDOCGt9CMwg&feature=related
> 
> One can see that it takes about 1 minute for the train to cross the peripheral Florentine station on dedicated tracks, and at ultra fast snail speed, in reverse. At the end of the video on can see that, after teeh crossing in the station , the subsequent top speed towards Rovezzano Rovezzano is 90-95-100km/h .
> Just after Rovezzano the "Old" High speed Florence -Rome - capable of only 250km/h, begins.
> It was on the section Rovezzano-Rome that the best average speed of this faboulous train was achieved.
> 
> Non on the empty and new section Milan -Florence AV/AC.
> 
> AV: Alta Velocita' o Alta Voracita' (AV: High Velocity or High Voracity)?
> 
> This is the (first) question..


YOu can see clearly on the video I posted that the train went at 300 km/h on the Milano-Bologna line. 

you cannot give up, don't you?


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## joseph1951

mozatellac said:


> Sorry, I was thinking of the other French HSL, where the speed limit is 300km/h (apart from a short stretch on LGV Med). *On the LGV Est, the COVIT brakes from 335km/h*.


Yes.


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## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> YOu can see clearly on the video I posted that the train went at 300 km/h on the Milano-Bologna line.
> 
> you cannot give up, don't you?


301 km/h exactly. 

a) 
It is well know that the new Italian mixed traffic HS/HC lines have some stretches omologated for 300km/h
b) That the ETR500 is certified for 300km/h . (The first prototype reached the 316km/h on the "Old" DD Florence -Rome, in the early '90.

c) That the maximum ceiling speed is rarely maintained throughout the entire length an HSL line: slack times are included to make up time, in case of late running.

d) Maximum projectual speed of a line is different from maximum top speed of a given train in commercial services.

e) For certification purposes the maximum speed of both line and train must exceed by at least + 10% the homologation max speed of the train and of the line.

f) maximum speed attained on new newly build, and unopened lines are subsequently not used in commercial services.

Example: LGV Est : maximum speed attained 574km/h. 
Maximum current speed in commercial service : 320km/h 

These are well known facts. 

-------------------------------


You can also see on the other videos that I posted that:
The HS?HC stretches Milan-Bologna- Firenze-Castello were covered in 1h and 40 mintes

The crossing of Firenze-Castello passing station occurred at 13:40 pm, at a crawling pace: 

The second station crossing, prior to Rovezzano’s interconnectio, n was done even at a lower speed.

It took about 1 minute to pass through the second station – and the train is less than 400 meters long. 

So, the ETR500 AV /AP Alta’ Voracita’ Alte Personalita’ (HV /HP – High Voracity /High Personality, as the red arrow has been nicknamed) crossed that station on “dedicated “AV/AC” tracks at about 30km/h

After the crossing of the second station, the ETR500 is clearly accelerating towards Rovezzano and from the video is clearly visible that the HSL speed allowed from there to Rovezzano are 90-95-100.

Between the end of the Bo-Florence HSL and the beginning of the Florence-Rome DD, the underground Firenze-Belfione passing through station will be built. The train not stopping at Belfiore will further slow down at 80km/h. 

So, in the section sarting at the end of BO-FI HS and continuing via Firenze-Belfiore AV + Firenze- Castello- Campo di Marte –> Rovezzano the max speeds will vary from 80- 100-30(?) -100- 

Please note:
1-
The video, the official speed diagram and acceleration curve of the ETR500 (with 8 carriages) have been repeatedly posted both on this thread and on the Italian thread.
2-
I have posted several times the technical specifications of the Italian New HSLs, of the newly or soon(???) to be built underground stations. 
3-
On the Milan-Florence newly built HLs the average speed was lower than that achiedved on the old DD Florence –Rome 

(Source FOL = Ferrovie on Line)
4- 
On the Bologna Florence HSL section the ETR500 HV/HPs , accelerated at 0.4m/s/2 and that the 300 km/h were attained and maintained for about 4 MINUTES.

(Source FOL = Ferrovie on Line)

5-
The newest trains bought by TI are the tilting ETR600 which will run on the new HS/HC at top speed of 250km/h. These are the newest Italian trains and they were deliverd and entered in revenue a few months ago. 
So what is the reason that jusify the purchase of new trains certified for a top speed of 250km/h, if they have to be used in commercial revenue at speeds of 300km/h? 

Even the Italian version of the AGV bought by NTV will have a top speed of 300km/h. Not of 360km/h. And they will enter in commercial service in 2011......


The ETR500 1st series was built in the mid 90 , and the delivery of the ETR500 2nd series with dual tension locos, started around year 2000. Some of the new carriages of the New ETR500 "red arrow" are about 15-16 years old. 

The new thing about the ETR500s is the striped red, black, grey livery. 

Last but not least a few links to attempt to refresh your pragmatic short , short-term memory.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=17



http://www.ntvspa.it/ntvupload/utils...locità-NTV.pdf

http://www.ntvspa.it/it/nuovo-traspo...tazioni-tratte

http://www.youreporter.it/video_La_Prima_Frecciarossa_sulla_linea_Av_Firenze_-_Bologna_1


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## Eddard Stark

Joseph you fail to remember every time that both in Florence and Bologna there are no dedicated tracks YET as they are U/C. 

Still, it managed to reach Rome in 3 hours, that means with the new dedicated tracks it could be faster, isn't it?

Here the update from the official FS (RFI) website which has been finally updated about Bologna and FIrenze bypass.

Bologna: 61% completed, opening December 2011



Firenze: 20% completed, opening (well...we hope) 2014. Constructions started in 2008

Link:

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=a045317122d6d110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD

*Joseph please keep your post short or the section is unreadable to normal users. Thanks*


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## Eddard Stark

Besides, ETR500 reached above 350 km/h on the new Bologna-Firenze line during tests. Surely it can run at 300 km/h without any technical difficulty


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## hans280

Eddard Stark said:


> Here the update from the official FS (RFI) website which has been finally updated about Bologna and FIrenze bypass.
> 
> Bologna: 61% completed, opening December 2011
> 
> Firenze: 20% completed, opening (well...we hope) 2014. Constructions started in 2008


Sorry Eddard, but... well... I don't want to be a nasty guy or something. But.. surely you cannot consider these construction/opening times are NORMAL? I mean... the French started their construction of the LGV-Est several years after the Milan-Bologna-Florence line, and all railway stations along the line were finished two years ago. (Apart from the terminus in Strasbourg which was readied only this year.) Surely... I mean, SURELY it is not accepteable for the new highspeed stations in Florence, Bologna and Naples to be ready only after the Beijing Olympics???? NO, sorry guys, but...

....we're supposed to be adults here. Get your act together.


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## joseph1951

hans280 said:


> Sorry Eddard, but... well... I don't want to be a nasty guy or something. But.. surely you cannot consider these construction/opening times are NORMAL? I mean... the French started their construction of the LGV-Est several years after the Milan-Bologna-Florence line, and all railway stations along the line were finished two years ago. (Apart from the terminus in Strasbourg which was readied only this year.) Surely... I mean, SURELY it is not accepteable for the new highspeed stations in Florence, Bologna and Naples to be ready only after the Beijing Olympics???? NO, sorry guys, but...
> 
> ....we're supposed to be adults here. Get your act together.


I agree


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## JoFMO

hans280 said:


> Sorry Eddard, but... well... I don't want to be a nasty guy or something. But.. surely you cannot consider these construction/opening times are NORMAL? I mean... the French started their construction of the LGV-Est several years after the Milan-Bologna-Florence line, and all railway stations along the line were finished two years ago. (Apart from the terminus in Strasbourg which was readied only this year.) Surely... I mean, SURELY it is not accepteable for the new highspeed stations in Florence, Bologna and Naples to be ready only after the Beijing Olympics???? NO, sorry guys, but...
> 
> ....we're supposed to be adults here. Get your act together.


I don't think that is a fair comparison.

The French put 2 platforms along the track in the vast open land of the Champagne. 
They also renovateted other stations in the cities.

You can't compare that with the kind of station building they are doing in Italy. Building an underground station in a densely populated urban area close to an operating railway is a major operation. The closest to compare would be Lille Europe station, but even Lille was built on a relatively easy excessible open stretch of land.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Also, more of the 70% of Bologna-Firenze is in tunnel and even the Torino-Milano and Milano-Bologna are mostly on viaducts

Building infrastructures in Italy is a bit more difficult than France or Spain


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## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> Sorry Eddard, but... well... I don't want to be a nasty guy or something. But.. surely you cannot consider these construction/opening times are NORMAL? I mean... the French started their construction of the LGV-Est several years after the Milan-Bologna-Florence line, and all railway stations along the line were finished two years ago. (Apart from the terminus in Strasbourg which was readied only this year.) Surely... I mean, SURELY it is not accepteable for the new highspeed stations in Florence, Bologna and Naples to be ready only after the Beijing Olympics???? NO, sorry guys, but...
> 
> ....we're supposed to be adults here. Get your act together.


Well the problem, on top of what has been said already, is that construction of the underground bypasses of Florence and Bologna did not start at the same time as the interurban lines, for several reasons mainly connected to the very difficult approval process.

Construction of the Bologna bypass started in 2002 but the operations did not start on the whole lenght before 2004, while the Milano-Bologna (completed technically in 2007 but opened in 2008) started its construction in 2000

Bologna bypass let me say again is a complecated affair with an underground station and 12km of tunnels and 8 km of complete reenginering of the Bologna station entrance, all without stopping trains from running on the very same tracks. That involved moving tracks several times in order to build, piece by piece, every segment of the new tracks. 

I have watched the construction for 8 years now every time I go from Milan to Pescara, if you want more details about what has been done in Bologna I can provide you 

Le me say one more thing: the Turin-Novara HSR line was built in 3 years, and the same is true for the Novara-Milan, even if it involved a lot of works on the adjacent highway. Not all the HSR construction in Italy take a lot of time, only the very complex ones (which are most)


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## Eddard Stark

Bologna Bypass, main works:

*Building of the underground, 2 tracks HSR tunnel *from Bologna AV station to the Bologna-Firenze line (10 km)

*Construction of the new HSR underground station, 4 tracks 600 meters long on 3 levels*

*Doubling of the tracks of the Bologna interconnection*: from 4 to 8 tracks from Bologna to the split of the railways, *2 dedicated tracks for each line coming from the west *(Bologna-Milano standard, Bologna-Milano AV, Porretana, Bologna-Verona) all the way to the HSR station/standard station

*Interconnection of Lavino *(west of Bologna) to allow HSR trains coming from Milan to stop also at the standard station (in order to proceed to the Adriatic line). 

*New interconnection with the Bologna-Venezia line*, partly in tunnel partly on new tracks

*Doubling inside Bologna of the Bologna-Verona *(2 tracks instead of 1)

*New centralised system to run the most complex interconnection of the italian railways* from a central informatic system

All this without ever stopping traffic on the most important railway hub of italy


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## hans280

Eddard Stark said:


> Well the problem, on top of what has been said already, is that construction of the underground bypasses of Florence and Bologna did not start at the same time as the interurban lines, for several reasons mainly connected to the very difficult approval process.


Hum. Yes, well... you are a bit in the same situation as I was two years ago when I had to explain to Muslim colleagues that the Mohamad cartoons of my native Denmark could not be prevented on account of the Danish constitutional protections of free speach. Little did I understand at the time that these colleagues objected to the Danish constitution - full stop. I guess that...

...what I really have a problem with is the "difficult approval process" you talk about. To me, it is unserious and unacceptable for public authorities to construct a HSL from, say, Rome to Naples on the understanding that "the last 20 km will be finished later, as soon as the planning processes of Campania allow" and anyway "the new railway station in Afragola will be finished some five years after the finalisation of the line". 

My heroes are the Norwegians who HELD BACK the opening of their new mega-international airport in Gardermoen because... the 200 km/h railway link to Oslo was not finished on time. The Prime Minister explained to the nation that, sorry, but as far as my government is concerned until the airport is properly linked to the national infrastructure network the airport is not fit to enter into operation. 



Eddard Stark said:


> Bologna bypass let me say again is a complecated affair with an underground station and 12km of tunnels and 8 km of complete reenginering of the Bologna station entrance, all without stopping trains from running on the very same tracks. That involved moving tracks several times in order to build, piece by piece, every segment of the new tracks.


Eddard, I think we all understand that railway construction in Italy is very difficult. It is, obviously, due to the (1) mountains; (2) heavy density of population; and (3) risk of eathquakes. However, the making of an underground railway STATION in Florence is not, I think, more difficult than in, say, Zurich or London.


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## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> Hum. Yes, well... you are a bit in the same situation as I was two years ago when I had to explain to Muslim colleagues that the Mohamad cartoons of my native Denmark could not be prevented on account of the Danish constitutional protections of free speach. Little did I understand at the time that these colleagues objected to the Danish constitution - full stop. I guess that...
> 
> ...what I really have a problem with is the "difficult approval process" you talk about. To me, it is unserious and unacceptable for public authorities to construct a HSL from, say, Rome to Naples on the understanding that "the last 20 km will be finished later, as soon as the planning processes of Campania allow" and anyway "the new railway station in Afragola will be finished some five years after the finalisation of the line".
> 
> My heroes are the Norwegians who HELD BACK the opening of their new mega-international airport in Gardermoen because... the 200 km/h railway link to Oslo was not finished on time. The Prime Minister explained to the nation that, sorry, but as far as my government is concerned until the airport is properly linked to the national infrastructure network the airport is not fit to enter into operation.
> 
> 
> 
> Eddard, I think we all understand that railway construction in Italy is very difficult. It is, obviously, due to the (1) mountains; (2) heavy density of population; and (3) risk of eathquakes. However, the making of an underground railway STATION in Florence is not, I think, more difficult than in, say, Zurich or London.


Well...the thing is that construction started only last year and the construction of the station itself did not start yet

Meanwhile there is the current station, Santa Maria Novella, which works just fine...it's not that without the bypass there are no stations in Florence! all thought since it's not a by-pass stations the really fast trains will not stop in Florence at all (as they do now)

The absence of this key missing link in Florence is that the running time unfortunately have to keep some "buffer time" in order to allow trains to recover whatever may happen in the Florence (and Bologna) interconnections where HSR trains NOW (but not in the future) have to share tracks with non-HSR and even regional trains.

What can I say? the system works anyway but I have no doubt it will work better when the bypasses are completed and the HSR trains have dedicated tracks with no interconnections witht he other tracks...


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## Eddard Stark

Ok Hans (and everyone else) I finally tried the Frecciarossa all the way to Rome from Milan (before only from Milan to Bologna)

Both trains (to go and come back) were early (5-10 minutes) even thought we passed (as Joseph raightly says) at snail pace in Bologna and Firenze urban sections (where as Hans lamentably pointed out the bypasses are not finished)

All that said the train (ETR500) in its refurbished version is the most comfortable train I have rode on: silent, smooth, spacious.

*I have a proposal for train fanatics from Europe (Hans first of all, also Joseph) why don't you come to Milan next December/January when the Bologna-FIrenze will open and we can organise a trip on the HSR line to Rome (or Florence) and back? so you will get a taste of our system and you will see the strong and weak points of it first hand*

I am very serious!

More details about the trip will come


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## GENIUS LOCI

^^
Didn't you have a camera? :|


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## Eddard Stark

GENIUS LOCI said:


> ^^
> Didn't you have a camera? :|


forbidden...it's a long story!


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## hans280

Eddard Stark said:


> *I have a proposal for train fanatics from Europe (Hans first of all, also Joseph) why don't you come to Milan next December/January when the Bologna-FIrenze will open and we can organise a trip on the HSR line to Rome (or Florence) and back? so you will get a taste of our system and you will see the strong and weak points of it first hand*
> 
> I am very serious!
> 
> More details about the trip will come


I might yet hold you to that proposal! OK, I have family obligations over X-mas, but I also have a wife who's crazy about all things Italian. It wouldn't be hard to persuade her to make a dash to Lombardia or Emilia Romagna. I guess the most impressive aspect of such a trip would be the extensive tunelling through the Apennines? I have tried the ETR 500 (on ordinary track between Venice and Verona) and didn't find it so special - just like the TGV-Reseau, apart from its top speed, is a relatively unimpressive train. I guess the other thing you want me to see is how densly populated the Po Vally is? The train races past village after village, mostly on a viaduct at first-floor level. Quite different from the TGVs that thunder majesticly through the empty spaces of the Northen French plains. But, again, I wouldn't mid seeing it for myself.


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## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> I might yet hold you to that proposal! OK, I have family obligations over X-mas, but I also have a wife who's crazy about all things Italian. It wouldn't be hard to persuade her to make a dash to Lombardia or Emilia Romagna. I guess the most impressive aspect of such a trip would be the extensive tunelling through the Apennines? I have tried the ETR 500 (on ordinary track between Venice and Verona) and didn't find it so special - just like the TGV-Reseau, apart from its top speed, is a relatively unimpressive train. I guess the other thing you want me to see is how densly populated the Po Vally is? The train races past village after village, mostly on a viaduct at first-floor level. Quite different from the TGVs that thunder majesticly through the empty spaces of the Northen French plains. But, again, I wouldn't mid seeing it for myself.


ETR500 has been changed inside...it's much nicer looking and much more comfy...I think it will surprise you.

Yes, here the things to see

1) *The po valley*, a without solution line of cities, factories, villages, farms, houses, highways. Similar to Rhein Germany but with more sun and happier looking

2) the incredibly complicated *Bologna junction*...and all the ongoing construction

3) the *80 km (almost uninterrupted) tunnel *between Bologna and Firenze

4) One of the most beautiful railways on earth *between Florence and Rome, accross the Tuscan countryside* which seems falling from the most beautiful paintings of the renaissance

5) *ROME! *not the railway, the city itself...the most grandiose city of the world...with Paris of course!

In 3 hours we can be in Rome from Milan...it's not gonna be cheap but it's gonna be nice (it should be 150€ roundtrip per person...maximum, if we cannot find offers). and then you can have with your wife a weekend in Rome. Of course I would bring mine as well (i am in the 20% of the SSC forumers which happen not to be gay  )

The invitation is open to anyone which wants to try the new Italian TAV from December onwards...it could be done in January or next spring. But January without the crowds means you can see Italy in a different, more natural way

Eddie Stark


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## plottigat

hans280 said:


> However, the making of an underground railway STATION in Florence is not, I think, more difficult than in, say, Zurich or London.


London and Zurich are wonderful cities but Florence is a living masterpiece that must be protected.
In Italy there are strict conservation laws. We can discuss forever if these laws are transforming our cities into theme parks or not, but today the law says that the Ministry of Cultural Heritage (and its local branch) must approve every single project in downtown Florence (or Rome, Venice, Naples etc. etc.).


----------



## city_thing

Eddard Stark said:


> ETR500 has been changed inside...it's much nicer looking and much more comfy...I think it will surprise you.
> 
> Yes, here the things to see
> 
> 1) *The po valley*, a without solution line of cities, factories, villages, farms, houses, highways. Similar to Rhein Germany but with more sun and happier looking
> 
> 2) the incredibly complicated *Bologna junction*...and all the ongoing construction
> 
> 3) the *80 km (almost uninterrupted) tunnel *between Bologna and Firenze
> 
> 4) One of the most beautiful railways on earth *between Florence and Rome, accross the Tuscan countryside* which seems falling from the most beautiful paintings of the renaissance
> 
> 5) *ROME! *not the railway, the city itself...the most grandiose city of the world...with Paris of course!
> 
> In 3 hours we can be in Rome from Milan...it's not gonna be cheap but it's gonna be nice (it should be 150€ roundtrip per person...maximum, if we cannot find offers). and then you can have with your wife a weekend in Rome. Of course I would bring mine as well *(i am in the 20% of the SSC forumers which happen not to be gay  )*
> 
> The invitation is open to anyone which wants to try the new Italian TAV from December onwards...it could be done in January or next spring. But January without the crowds means you can see Italy in a different, more natural way
> 
> Eddie Stark


LOL. I didn't know there was straight people on here...

What's so complicated about the Bologna junction?


----------



## Eddard Stark

city_thing said:


> LOL. I didn't know there was straight people on here...
> 
> What's so complicated about the Bologna junction?


there are a hanful 

Don't ask...it's a mess.

Basically 4 lines converge from the west, with underground connection between some of them. Then the new line (U/C) goes underground to the new underground station U/C underneath the existing one...well I will make a map one day, look at my post with a map and you will see how complicated it is


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

This one without HS bypass 










This one wit HS bypass


----------



## Eddard Stark

Eddard Stark said:


> Joseph you fail to remember every time that both in Florence and Bologna there are no dedicated tracks YET as they are U/C.
> 
> Still, it managed to reach Rome in 3 hours, that means with the new dedicated tracks it could be faster, isn't it?
> 
> Here the update from the official FS (RFI) website which has been finally updated about Bologna and FIrenze bypass.
> 
> Bologna: 61% completed, opening December 2011
> 
> 
> 
> Firenze: 20% completed, opening (well...we hope) 2014. Constructions started in 2008
> 
> Link:
> 
> http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=a045317122d6d110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD


Thank you Genius, this is more accurate but less clear


----------



## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> Thank you Genius, this is more accurate but less clear


With reference to post #416.
Quote "Joseph please keep....short"

The post quoting "Joseph" has nothing to with me. Nor indeed the map(s). 

It seems to be an artful copy, and paste and editing of various things. 

Besides what are the word in light grey, and in small print, under in the second map?

I would like to state quite clearly that, in earlier discussions, I merely posted the official links of the various official projects.

Not a re-editing of the said projects..

The reading of the latest posts by eddard, appear to have some quite disturbing connotations, of various nature, ranging from personal invitations to be escorted in a tour, to obnoxious tourist propaganda, to "statistics" related to the alleged "sexual orientations of the vast majority of readers", which might be deemed as insulting by some forumers. 

None of the arguments recently posted by the said Eddard Stark, seem to be pertinent to an international debate on High Speed trains and High Speed Lines. 

For the above reasons, I stopped intervening in the discussion, and I would greatly appreciate if eddard stark , could refrain himself from unduly quoting my screename, or adding in his maps messages or warning, adresssed to me. 

What is the point in putting at the bottom of a map a message in which he tells me to keep my posts short, if I do not post at all? 

This action might be construed as harrassment.

Nor I intend to, unless repeatedly forced to.

Mr Stark should be able to make a point on Italian HSLs, without having to resort to trickery, or attempting to climb mirrors.

For the record, I was born in the Po Valley, and I was in Italy as recently as 23-27th, April 2009. 

Landing to, and departing from Bologna. 

I certainly do not need his escort for a tour of Italian HSLs. 

I would like to draw the attention of the person (s) monitoring this website.


----------



## Eddard Stark

joseph1951 said:


> The post quoting Joseph has nothing to with me. It seems to be an artful copy and paste and editing of various things.
> 
> Besides what are the word in light grey and small print under in the second second map?
> 
> I would like to state quite clearly that I merely posted the officla link of the projects.
> I do no tknow what is going on but, I would like to draw the attention of the person(s) monitoring this website.


You can clearly read "originally posted by Eddard Stark" up above. it's my post answering one of yours...I quoted myself in order to show that official RFI map (on the RFI website)

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=0d17f875fa7bd110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD

Don't feel persecuted, relax and take it easy


----------



## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> Thank you Genius, this is more accurate but less clear



Incidentally, this is the RFI official plan of Bologna underground crossing, as posted in the official Italian Bologna -HS website. One can see the difference with the one "re-drawn" earliear, and posted by a forumer.

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=5abe5962d84bd110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD#2


----------



## joseph1951

GENIUS LOCI said:


> This one without HS bypass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one wit HS bypass


The second map has been re-drawn by the orginal posting forumer.

The official plan/map posted on the official RFI website, relating to Bologna underground crossing is the one posted at the bottom of this post.

I wonder what is the purpose of fiddling with posts and maps.... 

Is it possible that RFI's engineers can't even draw an official map/plan? 

Why does RFI needs the help of a forumer, in drawing a map? 

Perhaps to make it more "palatable" to an international "audience"? 


===========
Official RFI map on Bologna HS underground crossing.
The difference is obvious

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=5abe5962d84bd110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD#2


----------



## Eddard Stark

joseph1951 said:


> Incidentally, this is the RFI official plan of Bologna underground crossing, as posted in the official Italian Bologna -HS website. One can see the difference with the one "re-drawn" earliear, and posted by a forumer.
> 
> http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=5abe5962d84bd110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD#2


Not me...The phare above means "thank you Genius for posting those 2 maps, however the map I am quoting is more accurate than your 2 but less clear"

Now what's wrong with what I said?

My map is from the official website as well, is the one I posted and quoted

Can you stop your persecution delirium and come back to earth?

Incidentally here the link to the map I posted, please open it and stop accusing me

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=0d17f875fa7bd110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD


----------



## Eddard Stark

GENIUS LOCI said:


> This one wit HS bypass


This is not 100% accurate but it shows (in red) all the lines which are U/C in the Bologna rail interconnection. In this it is correct

Not all red lines are HSR, only the one coming from Milan and going to Florence. However HSR trains will be able (and already do) to ride on the lines going to Venice and Verona interconnected with modern non-overlapping interconnections with the bypassing tunnel and the new underground HSR station


----------



## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> Not me...The phare above means "thank you Genius for posting those 2 maps, however the map I am quoting is more accurate than your 2 but less clear"
> 
> Now what's wrong with what I said?
> 
> My map is from the official website as well, is the one I posted and quoted
> 
> Can you stop your persecution delirium and come back to earth?
> 
> Incidentally here the link to the map I posted, please open it and stop accusing me
> 
> http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=0d17f875fa7bd110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD



And the diagram is under the heading "il progetto" ---> "the plan" "lo schema del nodo--- the junction scheme/plan"


where the map and the technical features are described *in Italian*
*Velocita' di esercizio 80km - 250km = Speeds in commercial revenue 80km - 250km.*
http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=5abe5962d84bd110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD

I do not think is advisable to fiddle with official documents which are deposited and patented. 

Partially *re-colouring black lines* (standard lines) *in red* to make them appear HSL lines might be deemd in breach of deposited copyright and misleading.

The English official version of Bologna Junction

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/The Bologna Junction.pdf


----------



## Eddard Stark

joseph1951 said:


> And the diagram is under the heading "il progetto" ---> "the plan" "lo schema del nodo--- the junction scheme/plan"
> 
> 
> where the map and the technical features are described *in Italian*
> *Velocita' di esercizio 80km - 250km = Speeds in commercial revenue 80km - 250km.*
> http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=5abe5962d84bd110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD
> 
> I do not think is advisable to fiddle with official documents which are deposited and patented.
> 
> Partially *re-colouring black lines* (standard lines) *in red* to make them appear HSL lines might be deemd in breach of deposited copyright and misleading.
> 
> The English official version of Bologna Junction
> 
> http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/The Bologna Junction.pdf


Please let me say again *I did not colour the map*

However whoever did it did so in order to show all the lines which have been updated/remade in the Bologna junction. By the way they are all part of the HSR system. I never heard the asociation red=HSR

The Bologna bypas is about several things not only the underground bypass but several new interconnections which are shown in red...they could have been shown in yellow for what I care.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

joseph1951 said:


> The second map has been re-drawn by the orginal posting forumer.
> 
> The official plan/map posted on the official RFI website, relating to Bologna underground crossing is the one posted at the bottom of this post.
> 
> I wonder what is the purpose of fiddling with posts and maps....
> 
> Is it possible that RFI's engineers can't even draw an official map/plan?
> 
> Why does RFI needs the help of a forumer, in drawing a map?
> 
> Perhaps to make it more "palatable" to an international "audience"?
> 
> 
> ===========
> Official RFI map on Bologna HS underground crossing.
> The difference is obvious
> 
> http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=5abe5962d84bd110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD#2


I simply find out these maps by googling: they seemed to me quite correct and I posted 'em (as someone asked to know something more about Bologna junction)
Anyway those are the sources:
First map http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalo_merci_di_Bologna_San_Donato
Second map http://www.italferr.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=fcaeec38bea0a110VgnVCM10000080a3e90aRCRD - PDF http://www.italferr.it/cms-file/allegati/italferr/NodoBologna.pdf


That's all

:cheers:


----------



## jayOOfoshO

Is the Milan - Venice TAV going to be ready by the end of this century?


----------



## joseph1951

jayOOfoshO said:


> Is the Milan - Venice TAV going to be ready by the end of this century?


*Probably... even less* ! On average from thinking about it, to talking about it, to start the works, it takes about 50-60 years. To construct it and finish it another 20-30 years.

Probably they will gradually open some short sections every 5-10 years (i.e: Treviglio-Brescia and Padua- Vicenza???) which will be useful to keep time, bu not to significally reduce the overall journey time. 

It took 30 years to build the so called HC section from Milan to Treviglio (about 20-24 km).

At the moment, in this section the HC does not have flyovers, so the speed is limited to 100km/h, and the fast trains Milan-Bergamo have to cross the 2 slow tracks at very reduced speed.


----------



## Eddard Stark

joseph1951 said:


> *Probably... even less* ! On average from thinking about it, to talking about it, to start the works, it takes about 50-60 years. To construct it and finish it another 20-30 years.
> 
> Probably they will gradually open some short sections every 5-10 years (i.e: Treviglio-Brescia and Padua- Vicenza???) which will be useful to keep time, bu not to significally reduce the overall journey time.
> 
> *It took 30 years to build the so called HC section from Milan to Treviglio (about 20-24 km).
> 
> At the moment, in this section the HC does not have flyovers, so the speed is limited to 100km/h, and the fast trains Milan-Bergamo have to cross the 2 slow tracks at very reduced speed*.


3 years

the speed is not 100 km/h but much more


----------



## jayOOfoshO

Damn 30 years? I don't know which one of you guys is right but 30 years to do that part would just be shameful


----------



## joseph1951

jayOOfoshO said:


> Damn 30 years? I don't know which one of you guys is right but 30 years to do that part would just be shameful


*Milan - Treviglio* after the upgading by adding 2 extra "fast tracks- (First section of th Line AV/AC Milan-Venice)

The inhabitants of Treviglio have waited about 30 years to have 4 tracks on the Milan-Treviglio section of the Milan -Venice line. Please refer to stagni.web. Although this website is momentarily closed in sign of protest, it wil be reopened soon.

After the completion of the 2 HS tracks from Milan to Treviglio, the speed on the now 4 tracks section, has been reduced from 160-km/h to 100km/h. The problem is that, in order to serve Bergamo, the Milan-Bergamo trains have to cross the 2 slow and the 2 fast tracks at 30km/h. They forgot to build the flyovers avoiding the flat crossings of the 4 tracks. 

*This causes a slow down of all trains, either stopping or non-stopping at Treviglio.*
Therefore, after the addition of two extra "Fast tracks" (_sic!)_ on the section Milan - Lambrate to Treviglio, the overall speed on that section has been reduced considerably. On the 4km long section between Milan-Central to Milan-Lambrate the max speed is 60km/h. Then tere is a speed restriction to 100km, for about 20km, with a further redion of speed to 30km/h, on the 24 km long section from Lambrate to Treviglio . This latter speed restriction is imposed to all train covering the jouney from Milan to Bergamo via Treviglio.

The journeys between Milanand Treviglio were faster "BEFORE" teh opening of the new HS section (sic) Milan-Lambrate-Treviglio AC (High Capacity) !!!!!!!!!!


*Flat crossings vs flyovers*.
The Italian railways , unlike other European Railways, have been quite reluctant to impletement flat crossings at 60km/h or crossing carried out at speeds of 100km/h. Even the crossing from the Fast and Slow Rome-Florence lines can be made only at 95-100 km/h , although some of then can be taken at 160km/h. 

The slow crosings speed is done for administrative failure, on the part of FS/TI, to implement new regulations.

The Italian Railways has failed to acknowledge fly-overs (saut de moutons). Although saut de moutons are nothing new, for TI they seem to be someting coming out of science fiction. 


*Florence-Rome High Speed Line interconncted with the slow line (Called by the Italian FS technicians "System of interconnected qadrupling")* 

*The preliminary studies*, carrid out to asses the hypothesis of feasibility of the upgrading of the old Florence-Rome, versus the need build a new HS line between the two towns, with a construction of the DD Rome -Florence, *started in 1958.*

*On the construction of the Driettissima (DD/HSL) Rome-Florence, the first "stone" was laid down on 25th June 1970. *

At the ceremiony, among other authorities, were present the then Transport Minister, Mr. Viglianesi, and the Italian State Railways Ing. Rubens Fienga. 

For the occasion, a special commemorative medal was coined.

In 1998 the HS line Rome Florence was not yest completed. 

Florence juntion. 

There was a strong disagreement between the Italian State & the FS on one side, and Florence administration and the Tuscany region on the other side. 

The Tuscany region and Florence bureaucrats rejected the FS plan, proposed for the Florence junction.

The problem continues today, 39 years later.

The FS plans, laid down for the Florence junction were far more simple and far more effective than those approved recently (Firenze -Castello then Firenze Belfiore , etc).

The latter plans do not allow for the high speed crossing of Florence. The speeds will range from 80 to 100km/h, for about 10kms. 

If everything goes accodirding to plna the new Florence -Belfiore AV will be opnend in 2014...


*In the original FS plan*, drafted by FS for the Florence junction, two main works were planned: 

*1- The High Speed ground crossing between Rovezzano and Campo di Marte*, turning Campo di Marte Station as a semi- underground station The Firenze-CM depot was going to be demolished, to build the fast tracks for the HSTs non-stopping there as well as the slow tracks for HST calling at Florence-CM.

The non-stop HSTs would have continued towards Prato at 180km/h, and after that, on the _"Old Florence - BO"_ historical line. 

*2- The second crossing was to be undergound,* just under the historical Florence-SMN Station. After the Florence-SMN crossing or stopping, the HSTs wodul have continued on the 4 HS tracks from Florence to Prato. 

3- Also there were plans to build a spur connecting *Florence HS Station* to the *Florence-Pisa* line.


*Rome External rail ring.*

The plan was agreed and made executive in 1938. It was reviewed in 1973 . The project is still unfinished. 

_Source: Edoardo Mori, in Treno da Roma a Firenze. Publisher ; Calosci - Cortona, 1981 _


*The Brenner Axis (Verona-Innsbrck -Muenchen)*

During the decade 1950-1960 several studies and options were considered by the three railways administrations involved, including the proposal of a new line between Muenchen and Garmisch P. Also several tunnel options between Munich and Bolzano were considerd. (Studies by Antonio Sardagna, Dresler, Neuner, Marin, etc).

At the end, for the section Innsbruck - Bolzano (Bozen) the Mori's solution was adopted unanimoulsy by the three administations involved. The project is called FS UIC-74., and although approved in 1974, on the Italian side, the works are still in the "exploratory phase". Also, the oppostion from the local inhabitants is still untaimed.


_Source: Edoardo Mori, La ferrovia da Verona a Monaco di Baviera. Publisher: Calosci - Cortona, 1983[/_

===========================================================================

There are many more examples of upgrading of lines, such as the Bologna - Verona and the Adriatica main lines mostly finished but with new faster speeds not implemented. 

It took almost 30 years to lay down the 2nd track of the 114 km long Bologna-Verona line. And this happened in the middle of the PO valley, which is the flattest part of Italy.

Furthermore since it was first built as a single track line, the Bologna-Verona line was planned to accomodate the second track! 

On the Adriatic main line, in the long sections already upgraded and doubled for 200 kph runnings., the maximum speed is still restricted to 150kph, for failure to implement the new train control system.

Futhermore, the Adriatic line is not directly connected at Bologna -Central with the new HSL Bologna-Milan. Nor it will be for the foreseeable future. If a passenger travelling from the Adriatic Line intends to speed up his journey to the North, he will have to change train at Bologna-Central for Milan or Turin.
As a matter of fact, with the new Winter 2008/Summer 2009 timetable the Adriatic line is now practically disconnected not only to Northern Italy, but also to Vienna or Munich..

Considering that the Germans have made the fortune of resort towns such as Rimini....


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The videos shoving the slow crossing of Firenze-Castello and Firenze Campo di Marte have repeatedly been posted on this post.
Here below here I will post again some "tasty" samples.

High Speed non stop train High Voracity, High Personalites Frecciarossa * Fast *Milan -Rome 
in 3hrs. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACFuG4SMAJ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDOCGt9CMwg&feature=related

Link - REFI Brochures - with all the projects of HS/HC lines an junctions.
http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=19a68c3e13e0a110VgnVCM10000080a3e90aRCRD

PATHETIC BERLUSCONI
On HSL- HST Milan - Florence-Rome non-stop - Frecciarossa - Fast - High Personalities- High Voracity -High Eminences - 

Note the dropping of pasta during the gloved silver services. Remarakble is Mr Berlusoni comment about "cute girls to hand over to the train's pilots (sic!), and the comment of the waiter who points out that, in the train restaurant car, they treat all travellers as "normal persons", including the commuters....and this was just before a colleague of his dropped the pasta on the floor!

As a PR video it could hardly have been worse. Almost as bad as Berlusconi's appearance on the G20 summit.


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=20


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444909&page=16
Google it : Milano Treviglio AC - page 1 of 10

http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&q...G=Cerca+con+Google&meta=cr=countryIT&aq=f&oq=


----------



## joseph1951

jayOOfoshO said:


> Damn 30 years? I don't know which one of you guys is right but 30 years to do that part would just be shameful


A few days ago the money previously allocated to the Bari Naples- HC-Line and subsequtnly allocated to the Verona-Padua HSL , has been subtracted from the planned Verona-Padua HSL and reallocated to the Naples-Bari HSL..
The usal saga of stealing from Peter to pay Paul, and vice-versa.


----------



## jayOOfoshO

ahaha I saw that on the Italian thread.

You know I don't know if it'd be right to reallocate money previously allocated to the South, but for sure the Milan - Venice track is more important than the Naples - Bari one.

Anyways your post was very explanatory thanks a lot

Actually the Turin - Trieste track should have been the first built since there's a lot more traffic on this route. It's not a secret that the most highly trafficked highway is the A4 and not the A1

Anyways,


----------



## sergiogiorgini

Wow... I'm so impressed. Here in Northern Europe we're so caught up in our tiny HSL additions and unimpressive station renovations that take centuries to finish, while in Italy this is going on/has existed all this time?


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^:?


----------



## Aerond

how long will it take Milano to Rome with Full HS?


----------



## Federicoft

3h starting from Dec 2009. Around 2h30m after 2011, when there will be new trains and the Bologna bypass will be completed.


----------



## dreaad

^^ it should be specified that this time (2h30) regards the trip from milan rogoredo to roma tiburtina (not the main central stations).


----------



## sergiogiorgini

Those designs for the Naples and Florence stations are absolutely stunning, almost in a fashion sense rather than architectural. (I mean, an argyle roof?) The only things I've ever seen that even come close are a handful of TGV stations, such as Avignon and Liege-Guillemins.

And I never knew Milan had a station that cathedral-like. What other station has that much marble in it?

Although I'm very confused as to who operates the trains and what they're called. Is it Eurostar Italia? And why are they so unknown?


----------



## Mauz®

sergiogiorgini said:


> And I never knew Milan had a station that cathedral-like. What other station has that much marble in it?
> 
> Although I'm very confused as to who operates the trains and what they're called. Is it Eurostar Italia? And why are they so unknown?


I'm very glad you like the main station of my city! 

Eurostar is the name of the high-speed train! It is operated by Trenitalia!
In particular the so called "Frecciarossa" (Red Arrow) and "Frecciargento" (Silver Arrow) will be operated by Trenitalia with Eurostar trains!


----------



## Klausenburg

This thread cannot die! Maybe someone know something about the stage of the works at Bologna, Afragola, Firenze and so on...


----------



## Coccodrillo

Endless tunnels on the Bologna-Firenze HSL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df87lMB5d18


----------



## gramercy

wow great video

i thought the Bologna-Firenze was two tunnels, not just one with two tracks
wouldnt this lower the speed? considering the air turbulence of two trains meeting in the tunnel?


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Coccodrillo said:


> Endless tunnels on the Bologna-Firenze HSL:


OMG
It's kinda hypnotic 

@gramercy
I don't think turbulence can slow down the trains


----------



## gramercy

GENIUS LOCI said:


> @gramercy
> I don't think turbulence can slow down the trains


not slow them down per se, but limit the allowed speed due to the turbulence shaking the trainsets, for example


----------



## hans280

Thanks for the video. As someone else said, it's truly intoxicating. Some people have joked about the double tunnel, but... well, it's not ideal but it is 30 per cent cheaper, and these things need to be seen in perspective. 

I do have a problem, though, and it's not a new thought. I mentioned it in a posting about a year ago. The acceleration time of that ETR500 train looks obSCENE to me!? I mean, I travel Paris-Frankfurt ever so often, and the German ICE3 trains normally go from 200 km/h to 320 km/h in less than two minutes. - And that, mind you, in the windy plains of Lorraine, not in a shielded tunnel. 

Are we to assume that a so-called high speed train needs 10 minutes to go from 200 to 300 km/h? Or, if not, is this video some sick joke?


----------



## gramercy

it takes 4.5 minutes from 200 to 300 in the video, but thats still slow


----------



## disturbman

Those ETR500 encountered some problems when tested on the French HSLs. They were too slow compared to the local TGV sets and the SNCF was seing their possible arrival on "her" network has a threat for the efficacity of the French HS system.

I think a similar issue was raised with the DBs ICE3, the were a bit slower to accelerate as a TGV set. But it was not as strong and visible as with the ETR500s.


----------



## Mauz®

I think we don't have enough information to establish if the ETR acceleration is too low...

we don't know if the tunnel was in plane... Maybe the train was going slightly uphill!
But the most important thing is that we don't know if the driver was accelerating as fast as possible.


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

disturbman said:


> Those ETR500 encountered some problems when tested on the French HSLs. They were too slow compared to the local TGV sets and the SNCF was seing their possible arrival on "her" network has a threat for the efficacity of the French HS system.
> 
> I think a similar issue was raised with the DBs ICE3, the were a bit slower to accelerate as a TGV set. But it was not as strong and visible as with the ETR500s.


The TGV has from 6.450 to 9.300 Kw and weights from 415 t to 484 t (fully loaded, except the Eurostars). The ETR500 has 8.800 kw and weights 616 t empty.


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

gramercy said:


> wow great video
> 
> i thought the Bologna-Firenze was two tunnels, not just one with two tracks
> wouldnt this lower the speed? considering the air turbulence of two trains meeting in the tunnel?


From the "fascicolo di linea" the Bologna/Firenze is setted to a maximum of 300 kph for 70 km out of 78.


----------



## disturbman

Mauz® said:


> I think we don't have enough information to establish if the ETR acceleration is too low...


No, that's a fact. See LUCAFUSAR numbers. They are a bit underpowered compared to other HST.


----------



## Federicoft

Yes, that's true. This will be hopefully solved with the AGV and the next generation Trenitalia HS trainset.


----------



## disturbman

I should say too (I just checked again the numbers) that the ETR500 tested in France was an old set only capable of 6.4MW... It's only the newest motor cars that are able to develop 8.8MW. The train was way underpowered for operations on the LGV1.


----------



## Mauz®

disturbman said:


> No, that's a fact. See LUCAFUSAR numbers. They are a bit underpowered compared to other HST.


Ok, the train is underpowered... this is a fact! But we don't know if the difference is AS MUCH AS seen in the video...


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

disturbman said:


> No, that's a fact. See LUCAFUSAR numbers. They are a bit underpowered compared to other HST.


Consider that two TGVs coupled together (2x200m sets) have a maximum output from 2x6.450>12.900 kw to 2x9.280>18.560 kw...the ETR500 can't be coupled because it's too long (354 m the 2+12 carriages version). In fact, to increase acceleration, there are also three ETR500 sets with 2 locos and 8 carriages (with the same output) which are used on the Torino/Novara line.


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

Mauz® said:


> I think we don't have enough information to establish if the ETR acceleration is too low...
> 
> we don't know if the tunnel was in plane... Maybe the train was going slightly uphill!
> But the most important thing is that we don't know if the driver was accelerating as fast as possible.


You're not totally wrong, but the TGV's powertoweight ratio is greater than the ETR500's one. So, the TGV is capable of a greater acceleration than the ETR500.


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

Federicoft said:


> Yes, that's true. This will be hopefully solved with the AGV and the next generation Trenitalia HS trainset.


The new NTV's AGV/11 will have 10.500 kw and a weight around 400 t (200 m trainset, 11 carriages).


----------



## Mauz®

LUCAFUSAR said:


> You're not totally wrong, but the TGV's powertoweight ratio is greater than the ETR500's one. So, the TGV is capable of a greater acceleration than the ETR500.


I know it... this is a fact, but is the ETR really so much underpowered as we see in the video or are there some more reasons contributing to give us that impression? Maybe the driver wasn't fully accelerating or the track was not perfectly plane...


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^Maybe...


----------



## disturbman

Maybe, we might note too that this video is a a video from a recent world record. The fastest train in a tunnel.


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^Nope. The world's fastest train in a tunnel is the experimental ICE V trainset, which setted this record in 1988, reaching the speed of 404 kph in a tunnel.


----------



## bluemeansgo

LUCAFUSAR said:


> ^^Nope. The world's fastest train in a tunnel is the experimental ICE V trainset, which setted this record in 1988, reaching the speed of 404 kph in a tunnel.


NOPE, the world's fastest train in a tunnel is the Japanese MLX01, which ran 581km/h in 2003.


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^The world's fastest train on rails...except maglevs.


----------



## makita09

LUCAFUSAR said:


> The TGV has from 6.450 to 9.300 Kw and weights from 415 t to 484 t (fully loaded, except the Eurostars). The ETR500 has 8.800 kw and weights 616 t empty.


To add, power to weight ratios are;

First TGVs (Sud-Est) - 16.7kW/ton
ETR 500 - 14.72kW/ton
Eurostar (London-Paris) - 15.00kW

all similar, and by comparison;

TGV Duplex - 24.23kW/ton
Series 500 Japan - 28.9kW/ton
ICE 3 - 19.5kW/ton


----------



## gramercy

great numbers, but what will the AGV have?


----------



## disturbman

gramercy said:


> great numbers, but what will the AGV have?


Its tought to be around 22 kW/t but it might vary a bit following the configuration choosed by the operator.


----------



## gramercy

well, it will still beat the ice3, although i'm not sure of the velaro (or is it the same as the ice3?)


the thing that surprises me the most, is that the Velaro is already a decade (!) old, and it doesnt seem like siemens is gonna take the lead again soon  
the Velaro has always been my favourite but now its gonna be the AGV


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^


LUCAFUSAR said:


> The new NTV's AGV/11 will have 10.500 kw and a weight around 400 t (200 m trainset, 11 carriages).


And a powertoweight ratio of 22.6 Kw/ton, as you can see here:

http://www.ntvspa.it/ntvupload/utils/SchedatecnicaAGV.pdf


----------



## disturbman

The Velaro is a slightly newer version of the IC3. The last avatar of the familly is the Velaro D that will equiped the DB around 2010. Siemens doesn't really produce a new train but updates a concept. That was what was done with the TGVs.

The Velaro is bit more powerfull than a ICE3. The Velaro E has a 8800kW output and develop 20.7kW/t


----------



## gramercy

I get that, but there are plenty of areas where they could improve: wind resistance, maybe a duplex?


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^The Velaro D will be equipped in 2010 for CRH. It'll be 400.4 m long and carry 1,060 passengers in 16 carriages. It'll have an output of 18.4 Mw to run at 380 kph.


----------



## gramercy

^^ where did you get that?


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^On this spanish SSC thread:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=34762824

According to the recent tests, the top operating speed of the Velaro D (or "new" CRH3), will be 380 kph and not 350.


----------



## gramercy

well i went through the last 4 pages and i couldnt find 380 on it anywhere

besides, last i heard the chinese ordered Zefiros for that speed
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...-orders-380-kmh-zefiro-high-speed-trains.html


----------



## Railfan

The AGV trains to TAV are under construction now?

Some pick´s?


----------



## Railfan

22/06/2009

AGV trains to TAV under constructión!!!


----------



## Railfan

*AGV trains to TAV under constructión!!!

30/07/2009


































​*


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

gramercy said:


> well i went through the last 4 pages and i couldnt find 380 on it anywhere
> 
> besides, last i heard the chinese ordered Zefiros for that speed
> https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...-orders-380-kmh-zefiro-high-speed-trains.html


Go on this chinese thread...you can find informations on this test, runned by the Velaro CRH3, in order to increase the maximum operating speed of the chinese high speed trains (Velaro D or Zefiro380):



big-dog said:


> *10.3 CRH3 trial run on Wuhan-Guangzhou express rail*
> 
> max speed: 383kmph
> 3 hours 5 minutes to run through 1068.6km express rail.


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=44602446&postcount=1636

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=218503&page=82


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

Railfan said:


> *AGV trains to TAV under constructión!!!
> 
> 30/07/2009
> 
> ...
> 
> ​*


*

Yep, the construction of the NTV's AGV started partly in the italian Alstom's facility near Savigliano on july 8, 2009, partly in Alstom's La Rochelle/plant. It seems they proceed pretty well.​*


----------



## gramercy

LUCAFUSAR said:


> Go on this chinese thread...you can find informations on this test, runned by the Velaro CRH3, in order to increase the maximum operating speed of the chinese high speed trains (Velaro D or Zefiro380):
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=44602446&postcount=1636
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=218503&page=82



okay, now we are getting somewhere

but doing a trial run is a far cry from a trainset that can do that every day for a decade

i realize that the current Velaro is built to an operating speed of 300-330-350-360 kph (depending on the version/configuration etc) and that in order to the 360 it IS capable of going at almost 400 kph safely
but that doesnt mean that the operating speed of the trainset is 380, it is at the most 360

i also understand that the chinese ordered not the Velaro but the Zefiro from Bombardier for that speed, however let me quote myself here cause i already explained why i have serious doubts of running at 380 within a couple of years



gramercy said:


> - there is NO train controll system currently that can safely operate trains ABOVE 320 kph, ETCS is the only one that even has a hope and it doesnt even work on the "350" Beijing-Tianjin. i have serious doubts that they actually do this and if they do then they do it without a controll system which means less frequency
> - 380 kph would require +103 % energy (cost) compared to running at 300 kph, +67 % compared to 320 kph and +31 % (almost a third) compared to running at 350 kph. as a result the ticked would be twice, two thirds or one third more expensive
> - not the chinese, nor bombardier have demonstrated their OWN design anywhere near these speeds
> - a train running at 380 kph has to be able to operate SAFELY for LONG distances at +10% more speed, so in fact the design speed would be 418 kph!!!
> - there is noone else even attempting this because there are more pressing issues for the japanese/europeans, such as: noise emissions, aerodynamics vs cost, train controll systems etc.
> 
> 
> to do this sort of a leapfrog within 2-4 years is something I just dont believe possible
> 
> the chinese regime has claimed a lot of things and this just smells like one of their exagerrations
> 
> still i dont want to belittle their efforts, i mean thousands of kilometres of 320-350 kph is awesome and i'm sure its only a matter of time to go to 380
> but its more like a decade imho




maybe it will be a reality in a decade and it is certainly china who we are all expecting to do it first


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^O.K. Got it.


----------



## Shezan

Coccodrillo said:


> Endless tunnels on the Bologna-Firenze HSL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df87lMB5d18


thanks for this awesome trip, Coccodrillo...the music was perfect kay:


----------



## Coccodrillo

It wasn't taken by me, it has been made by an engineer/tecnician known only by the nickname 44Nikko87. Search the other videos made by him/her - they are really inbteresting.


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

*New Trenitalia High Speed Timetable for December 13th.*

The new Trenitalia timetable has been announced for December 13th. On that date, the new high speed line between Florence and Bologna will be working, reducing that trip from one hour to 37 minutes. All timetables on the main north-south itinerary, Milan-Rome-Naples will be reworked according to these guidelines:

- 72 ETR500 Frecciarossa trains/day will join Milan Centrale and Rome Termini: 38 with stops in Firenze Santa Maria Novella and Bologna Centrale (duration 3h 30'), 28 no/stop (2h 59'), plus 6 no/stops trains will join Milan Rogoredo with Rome Tiburtina in 2h 45'.
- 36 ETR500 Frecciarossa trains/day will join Milan Centrale and Naples: 24 with stops in Firenze Santa Maria Novella and Bologna Centrale (4h 55'), 6 with a stop at Roma Termini (4h 25') and 6 no/stop (4h 10'). 
- 12 ETR500 Frecciarossa trains/day will join Turin Porta Nuova and Rome Termini: 8 with stops in Milan Porta Garibaldi, Bologna Centrale and Firenze Campo Marte (4h 10'), 2 with a stop at Milano Centrale (4h 19') and 2 with stops at Milano Centrale, Bologna Centrale and Firenze Santa Maria Novella (4h 45').
- 70 trains/day (ETR500 Frecciarossa and tilting ETR Frecciargento) will join Bologna Centrale and Firenze Santa Maria Novella through the new hs line, reducing the travel time between these two stations from 1h to 37'.
-The travel time between Rome Termini and Naples Centrale will be reduced from 1h 21' to 1h 10'.
- 26 tilting ETR Frecciargento trains/day will join Venice Mestre and Rome Termini: 22 with stops and 4 no/stop (3h 15').
- 4 tilting ETR Frecciargento trains/day will join Verona Porta Nuova and Rome Termini in 3h (with stops).
- 2 tilting ETR Frecciargento trains/day will join Brescia and Rome Termini in 3h 22' (with stops).
- 10 tilting ETR Frecciargento trains/day will join Rome Termini and Bari Centrale: 6 with stops and 4 no/stop (3h 59').
- 8 tilting ETR Frecciargento trains/day will join Rome Termini and Reggio Calabria Centrale.
- Next year Trenitalia will add two more tilting ETR Frecciargento trains/day between Rome Termini and Lamezia Terme Centrale (total of 4, all without stops).

All these news are in this Trenitalia press release, but it's in italian, so i translated it:

http://www.fsnews.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=1903949bde894210VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD


----------



## Eddard Stark

Thank you Lucafusar!

Here is a map of the new services, so that non-italians can understand



Actually there is one link missing: 2 trains will reach Brescia from Verona

The real HSR line is the red one, from Turin to Salerno. But also "frecciargento" services will run partly on the HSR lines


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

Eddard Stark said:


> ...
> 
> Actually there is one link missing: 2 trains will reach Brescia from Verona
> 
> ...





LUCAFUSAR said:


> ...
> - 2 tilting ETR Frecciargento trains/day will join Brescia (*through Verona*) and Rome Termini in 3h 22' (with stops).
> 
> ...


----------



## Eddard Stark

LUCAFUSAR said:


>


I meant from the map  you got it right of course!


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^O.K., got it.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Eddard Stark said:


> The real HSR line is the red one, from Turin to Salerno. But also "frecciargento" services will run partly on the HSR lines


Grey lines aren't HSL but often allow 160-180-200 km/h running.


----------



## hans280

A question: when FS still maintained their TAV progress page on the internet they always referred to the line BO-FI as destined to eventually lower the travel time between the two cities to 30 minutes. According to the latest posting, this has now been changed to 37 minutes. At the same time, the travel time between (the termini of) Rome and Milan are, as initially foreseen, 3 hours. What are we to make of that? That BO-FI has turned out a bit "slower" than foreseen whereas BO-MI is a bit "faster"? Or are the 37 minutes a temporary occurrance to be improved when the new stations in the two cities stand ready?


----------



## ETR401

^^
As you guessed, works are still in progress in Bologna (and in Firenze they are still struggling over different solutions for the new station, only preliminary works were made so far....).
A similar situation can be found in Turin. A four-track underground line towards Milan is in construction (two tracks opened few days ago), meanwhile long distance and commuter traffic share the two track currently operating. Hence the need for somewhat "relaxed" paths.....
Besides this, if my memory don't fails me, Bo-Fi HSL is temporarily operating at "just" 250 kph top speed, although being built and tested for 300.


----------



## Shezan

few more days to the Turin-Salerno HSR Line opening :banana:


----------



## Eddard Stark

Many thanks to TkMatt of FOL



dreaad said:


> una bella foto dalla bo-fi AV
> 
> grazie a TkMatt di FOL


These days as elsewhere in Europe the bad weather is putting a strain on the newly opened HSR line. Unfortunately this happened right at the opening of the line.

The train is the ETR600 which is used for "FRECCIARGENTO" services connecting Rome with the north-east of the country (Venice, Padua, Verona)


----------



## Eddard Stark

By the way, I actually used the line before the snow. The train took exactly 3 hours both ways but I realized there is still room for improvement. Unfortunately since the hurban dedicated lines of the HSR in Florence and Bologna are still U/C in these two cities the trains really go at snail pace.

Ayway the average (commercial) speed is now around 200km/h between Rome and Milan which is more than acceptable


----------



## hans280

^^As far as I understand, further progress is already in the pipeline? I read somewhere that, based on the finalisation of the project as already planned, a travel time on the non-stop trains from Milan to Rome of 2h45 is envisaged. Also, future upgrades (rolling stock, etc.) are expected to cut the best-time to 2h30. 

As for the commercial speed between Milan and Rome, is it uniformly 200 km/h? The effective speed is obviously a bit lower (it would be 520 km in 3 hours if I'm not mistaken?), but based on earlier maps I'd have said at most 200 km/h on the oldest part of the Diretissima (plus a couple of towns...) and somewhat more than 200 km/h on most of Milan-Bologna.


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^
Milano Centrale>Bologna Centrale Km 215 in 65 minutes at avg 198,4 km/h.
Bologna Centrale>Firenze Santa Maria Novella km 79 in 35 minutes (but there are some problems on this branch in order to respect schedule due to wheather conditions and poor performances of the trains) at avg 135,4 Km/h, more often 40 minutes at avg 118,5 km/h.
Firenze Santa Maria Novella>Roma Termini km 261 at avg 186,4 km/h.

Total Km 555. Average 186 km/h.

In Italy we still are in the Third World. Sorry, hans280.


----------



## Eddard Stark

LUCAFUSAR said:


> ^^
> Milano Centrale>Bologna Centrale Km 215 in 65 minutes at avg 198,4 km/h.
> Bologna Centrale>Firenze Santa Maria Novella km 79 in 35 minutes (but there are some problems on this branch in order to respect schedule due to wheather conditions and poor performances of the trains) at avg 135,4 Km/h, more often 40 minutes at avg 118,5 km/h.
> Firenze Santa Maria Novella>Roma Termini km 261 at avg 186,4 km/h.
> 
> Total Km 555. Average 186 km/h.
> 
> In Italy we still are in the Third World. Sorry, hans280.


I think you are excluding the hurban stretches of Rome, Milan, Florence and Bologna. 

For example 79km is not the distance between Florence and Bologna but merely the AV line. You have to add several km both in Bologna and Florence. The hurban stretch of Milan is particularly long (20km almost to Melegnano). The hurban stretch of Bologna is more than 10 km, and so it is Florence

The total lenght between Rome and Milan is very close to 600 km, and since the fastest train runs between the cities in 2:59 minutes the commercial speed on average is 200 km/h or something close to it


----------



## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> ^^As far as I understand, further progress is already in the pipeline? I read somewhere that, based on the finalisation of the project as already planned, a travel time on the non-stop trains from Milan to Rome of 2h45 is envisaged. Also, future upgrades (rolling stock, etc.) are expected to cut the best-time to 2h30.
> 
> As for the commercial speed between Milan and Rome, is it uniformly 200 km/h? The effective speed is obviously a bit lower (it would be 520 km in 3 hours if I'm not mistaken?), but based on earlier maps I'd have said at most 200 km/h on the oldest part of the Diretissima (plus a couple of towns...) and somewhat more than 200 km/h on most of Milan-Bologna.


As I said the lenght is around 600 km (it shall be 580-590 km)

It's surely achievable 2:45 with what is already U/C. It's probably possible 2:30 with some improvement on the old direttissima (new power line) and new rolling stock. The tender has been opened few weeks ago


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

Eddard Stark said:


> I think you are excluding the hurban stretches of Rome, Milan, Florence and Bologna.
> 
> For example 79km is not the distance between Florence and Bologna but merely the AV line. You have to add several km both in Bologna and Florence. The hurban stretch of Milan is particularly long (20km almost to Melegnano). The hurban stretch of Bologna is more than 10 km, and so it is Florence
> 
> The total lenght between Rome and Milan is very close to 600 km, and since the fastest train runs between the cities in 2:59 minutes the commercial speed on average is 200 km/h or something close to it


O.K., i post the wrong lenght of the Bologna-Firenze AV/AC, which seems to be 98 km long with the urban stretches). So the total lenght between Milan and Rome is 575 km with an avg of 193 km/h, however not so high.

P.S.: The Milan>Bologna HSL is 182 km long, 215 with the urban stretches.
The Direttissima is 253 km long, 261 with the branches Tiburtina-Termini and Rifredi-Santa Maria Novella.:dunno:


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

Eddard Stark said:


> As I said the lenght is around 600 km (it shall be 580-590 km)
> 
> It's surely achievable 2:45 with what is already U/C. It's probably possible 2:30 with some improvement on the old direttissima (new power line) and new rolling stock. The tender has been opened few weeks ago


Oremus.


----------



## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> 1-
> As I said the lenght is around 600 km (it shall be 580-590 km)
> 
> 2-
> It's surely achievable 2:45 with what is already U/C. It's probably possible 2:30 with some improvement on the old direttissima (new power line) and new rolling stock. The tender has been opened few weeks ago


1-
Nope. Let's see:
Mllan Bo - Historical Line 219 km.
Bo. Cle - Florence SMN 97 km , from station to station
Florence SMN. Rome-Termini via DD 261.
Total 577 kms, from Milan-Central to Rome-Termini.

The Bolgna Florence HSL is shorter than the historical route. Bologna Central to Rovezano about 100 via historical Route and shorter via Bo-Florence HSL.
The underground crossing of Bologa and Florence will occur at sped which are similar the present surface crossings speeds. 
In the Milan urban area the speeds are:
MIlan _ Central to Milan Lambrate = 4 km at max speed of 60 - 65 km/h
Lambrate to Rogoredo 8 km , starting from 60 km/h to 120-130 at Rogoredo.
From Rogoredo to the beginning of the HSL (8 km) from 120-130 km/h to 230 km/h 
Fom Melegano to roughly Reggio Emilia: 300km/h
Modena 240 km/h
Lavino from 160- to 105 to 60 km/h at Bologna Central.
Lavino Bologna is a 10km section 

Bologna - Central - San Rufillo about 2 km long section. AT San Ruffillo the HSL Blogna -Florence starts and terminates at Firenze Castello where the 10 long km slow section imposes speed restriction at 95-100km/h toward Rovezzano (DD, or where the High Speed Florence-Rome begins).
After the completion of Florence Belfiore AV Station (2014?) on this 10 km long section there will be furter speed restriction to 80 km/h, on the underground Florence AV section.

I don't think that, in the foreseable future, with the INCREASE in the number of HST's on the MIlan-Rome route there will be a chance to improve the commercial speed between Milan and Rome, UNLESS they change type of train and greatly improve the entire, HSL with the costuction of chords and High speed bypasses to avoid the urban areas of Bologna, Florence and Rome.

By now you should now better, .

Merry Christmas to all men of truth......and piece of earth, Eddard dearest.


----------



## hans280

joseph1951 said:


> 1-
> Nope. Ltes see
> Mllan Bo - Historical Line 219 km.
> Bo. Cle - Florence SMN 97 km , from station to station
> Florence SMN. Rome-Termini via DD 261.
> Total 577 km From Milan-Central to RomeTermini.


OK, but in all fairness it's quite good (and quite a progress) for express trains to be going 577 km/h in 3, and eventually 2 1/2, hours. In the spirit of X-mas I think we should congratulate our Italian brethren with this important milestone. :cheers:

I must confess that La Vie en Rail here in France has been a bit smug about the 4 1/4 hours drive from Milan to Naples, which is quite a notch below what is achieved on similar distances in La Hexagone. But, we've been over this before: the uncompromising tracing around all provincial towns may just be physically and politically feasible in France but it's politically very difficult in federal states and physically very difficult in mountain countries. (I know of only Japan to have invested largely in gallery tunnels to bypass towns, and they have 130 million people to foot the bill....) 

Moreover, it occurs to me that two of my past sources of scepticism is finally being pushed out of the way. First, the piecemeal Italian approach to new projects (the line from Rome to Naples completed... without the last 19 km... and the railway station to follow later...) has sometimes driven me up the wall, but now that we can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel (pun intended!) we may all sit down and decide that it was worth the wait. Secondly, the slightly "tired and underpowered" rolling stock may still be here, but as soon as NTV starts biting the butt of FS in 2011 I think there'll be a lot of change. And fast! 

So, again, congratulations Italy - and buon natale a tutti! :cheers:


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^Merry Christmas, hans.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Merry Christmast to you as well Hans. We will keep improving don't worry. Year after Year.

Come try it yourself our dear HSR whenever you want.

Eddie


----------



## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> I must confess that La Vie en Rail here in France has been a bit smug about the 4 1/4 hours drive from Milan to Naples, which is quite a notch below what is achieved on similar distances in La Hexagone. But, we've been over this before: the uncompromising tracing around all provincial towns may just be physically and politically feasible in France but it's politically very difficult in federal states and physically very difficult in mountain countries.


I will never get used to the use of "provincial towns" word...is Rome a provincial town to be bypassed en route to Naples?


----------



## hans280

^^A good question... with two answers. First, I confess to being twice bitten, first in tiny Denmark, secondly in centralist France. My basic, innermost thinking is (and I know this is anthema to people from federal states such as Italy and Germany) that the nation's capital shall enjoy first priority and people in provincial towns shall shut up and learn toi know their place... :nuts: 

If you need more illustration, think of the way the French always refer to farming produce (butter, honey, whatever...) as being "... de nos provinces". The keyword here is, of course, the possive pronoun "nos", indicating that provincial areas, somehow, belong as pieces of property to the central powers that be. 

Secondly, I would remind you that Paris is already bypassed. A (small) number of TGVs run daily between Lille and the Rhone valley without stopping at all in the Paris region. My adoptive country may be centralist, but it's not THAT centralist.


----------



## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> ^^A good question... with two answers. First, I confess to being twice bitten, first in tiny Denmark, secondly in centralist France. My basic, innermost thinking is (and I know this is anthema to people from federal states such as Italy and Germany) that the nation's capital shall enjoy first priority and people in provincial towns shall shut up and learn toi know their place... :nuts:
> 
> If you need more illustration, think of the way the French always refer to farming produce (butter, honey, whatever...) as being "... de nos provinces". The keyword here is, of course, the possive pronoun "nos", indicating that provincial areas, somehow, belong as pieces of property to the central powers that be.
> 
> Secondly, I would remind you that Paris is already bypassed. A (small) number of TGVs run daily between Lille and the Rhone valley without stopping at all in the Paris region. My adoptive country may be centralist, but it's not THAT centralist.


What is Milan for you than? it's neither the italian capital nor a provincial town...being far greater in economic importance than Rome. How does it fit in your scheme of things?

I knew about the trains skipping Paris

BTW: I did in the italian forum a comparison between the schedule between Rome and Milan vs Paris and Lyon and I found out there were far more connections between the first than the latter. Guess why. If you guess I will explain why I believe our system will allow a good balance between service and performance compared to the French one.


----------



## hans280

^^I cannot argue with you on your basic premise: to "achieve" a similar degree of centralism as in France (Denmark is different: the country is too small to sustain more than one important city) Italy would need punk its industrial structure by issuing Colbert-like threats to companies and banks that they need to "move to the capital or face the undying hostility of the authorities...". This is hardly a good idea, and the notion that no major economic activity should be allowed outside the capital, outside the eye of the monarch, had basically ruined the French economy at the end of Louis XIV's reign. However, the centralism remains with us to this day. :nuts:

That said, Eddard, we both know that it is Milan, not Rome, that will be the hub of the famous Italian "highspeed T". I think it would be an excellent idea - other things equal - to run a few point-to-point connections like, say, Milan-Napoli or Napoli-Bologna every day without stopping in Rome. The question is, how much time could they save by not stopping in the capital? To my knowledge (?) there is not a full-speed bypass around Rome.

Finally, in response to your "guess why" I'd respond that on my local commuter line between the western suburbs and Paris there are 9 stops between my house and the centre. If they send a large number of fast RERs (stopping only, say, three times each) down the line, then the travelling speed between each suburban station and Paris is greatly enhanced - BUT each individual stations has relatively few departures. Conversely, if every train stops everywhere then (1) a given trajectory is much slower; but (2) each station is serviced by more trains per day. For precisely this reason, most of the trains that service Paris-Marseille don't stop in Lyon (and those that do serve a highspeed station in the suburbs). 

I would assume that this is the nub of the difference? Any train from Milan to the south MUST - to Italian minds - stop in Rome? Well, most trains from Paris to the south should - to French minds - most definitely NOT stop in Lyon.


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## Coccodrillo

Over long distances the need of frequent services decreases, especially with the complicated ticket system used in Italy or France. The interest of a train every 15 minutes is low if you can't change your reservation quickly.

And there is probably not enought traffic between Milan and Rome to justify a train every 15 minutes as today. It would be better to offer, say, a basic 30-minutes headway Milan-Bolgona-Florence-Rome-Naples, a 60-minutes Milan-Bologna-Pescara service and a 60-minute Venice-Bologna-Florence-Rome service, plus some extra trains (Turin-Rome no-stop, Bozen Bolzano-Verona-Bologna-Florence-Rome, etc).


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## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> ^^I cannot argue with you on your basic premise: to "achieve" a similar degree of centralism as in France (Denmark is different: the country is too small to sustain more than one important city) Italy would need punk its industrial structure by issuing Colbert-like threats to companies and banks that they need to "move to the capital or face the undying hostility of the authorities...". This is hardly a good idea, and the notion that no major economic activity should be allowed outside the capital, outside the eye of the monarch, had basically ruined the French economy at the end of Louis XIV's reign. However, the centralism remains with us to this day. :nuts:
> 
> That said, Eddard, we both know that it is Milan, not Rome, that will be the hub of the famous Italian "highspeed T". I think it would be an excellent idea - other things equal - to run a few point-to-point connections like, say, Milan-Napoli or Napoli-Bologna every day without stopping in Rome. The question is, how much time could they save by not stopping in the capital? To my knowledge (?) there is not a full-speed bypass around Rome.
> 
> Finally, in response to your "guess why" I'd respond that on my local commuter line between the western suburbs and Paris there are 9 stops between my house and the centre. If they send a large number of fast RERs (stopping only, say, three times each) down the line, then the travelling speed between each suburban station and Paris is greatly enhanced - BUT each individual stations has relatively few departures. Conversely, if every train stops everywhere then (1) a given trajectory is much slower; but (2) each station is serviced by more trains per day. For precisely this reason, most of the trains that service Paris-Marseille don't stop in Lyon (and those that do serve a highspeed station in the suburbs).
> 
> I would assume that this is the nub of the difference? Any train from Milan to the south MUST - to Italian minds - stop in Rome? Well, most trains from Paris to the south should - to French minds - most definitely NOT stop in Lyon.


Correct. in fact there are (roughly) 1 train every hour to lyon from Paris and more than 1 every 30 minutes between Rome and Milan.

And why shall we skip Rome? as you rightly said it's our Capital after all 

And aswering Coccodrillo: frequency is essential. I just travelled from Milan to Rome and back by HSR for business. We finished earlier and we jumped on the 1H and 30 minutes earlier train by just changing the ticket at the machines (it's very easy: 2 minutes)

Besides it helps people know that there is a train every 30 minutes between the cities, it helps immensely the success is having among italians.

And the frequency is even higher between Rome and Bologna/Firenze


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## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> That said, Eddard, we both know that it is Milan, not Rome, that will be the hub of the famous Italian "highspeed T". I think it would be an excellent idea - other things equal - to run a few point-to-point connections like, say, Milan-Napoli or Napoli-Bologna every day without stopping in Rome. The question is, how much time could they save by not stopping in the capital? To my knowledge (?) there is not a full-speed bypass around Rome.


The reaility is that neither Milan nor Rome will be at the center of the HSR system: Rome is the hub connecting the "frecciargento" and "frecciarossa" services: Rome-Venice, Rome-Verona, Rome-Bari, Rome-Reggio Calabria. On these 4 connections which run partially on the main HSR line there is the HSR main line which is Turin-Salerno 

Milan is now the main hub of "traditional" rail in Italy (Milan-Switzerland, Milan-Venice, Milan-Genoa-Ventimiglia/Livorno) together with one of the mandatory stops of the main HSR line (Turin-Salerno).


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## Eddard Stark

Coccodrillo said:


> And there is probably not enought traffic between Milan and Rome to justify a train every 15 minutes as today. It would be better to offer, say, a basic 30-minutes headway Milan-Bolgona-Florence-Rome-Naples, a 60-minutes Milan-Bologna-Pescara service and a 60-minute Venice-Bologna-Florence-Rome service, plus some extra trains (Turin-Rome no-stop, Bozen Bolzano-Verona-Bologna-Florence-Rome, etc).


Of course it's already like this, roughly, or becoming so. 

On the main HSR line (Turin-salerno) there are many different services

1) direct Turin-Milan-Rome
2) direct Milan-Rome
3) Milan-Bologna-Florence-Rome
4) Milan-Bologna-Florence-Rome-Naples-Salerno
5) Milan-Rome-Naples

Between Bologna and Rome we have to also add the "frecciargento"

1) Venice-Bologna-Rome
2) Verona-Bologna-Rome

Between Rome and Naples we have also to add the "frecciargento"

1) Rome-Naples-Reggio-Calabria
and (but they do not stop yet in Naples)
2) Rome-Bari

All these trains add up between Milan and Rome, but they are part of larger offers. the most common ones are the Milan-Bologna-Florence-Rome thought, followed by the Milan-Rome.


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## hans280

Eddard Stark said:


> The reaility is that neither Milan nor Rome will be at the center of the HSR system: Rome is the hub connecting the "frecciargento" and "frecciarossa" services...Milan is now the main hub of "traditional" rail in Italy.


Sapristi! So, FS is about to repeat the successes of Alitalia? Two hubs in a country with less than 60 million inhabitants. Whew... good luck! :nuts:

Perhaps the main hub needs not be the capital (in air transport, think Brazil, think Australia...), but I definitely think you need a main hub. And, Eddard, I definitely think its a good idea to have a (limited) number of non-stop point-to-point connections from the major cities into this hub. - Whereever it's located.


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## Coccodrillo

Trains are not airplanes, there are a lot of "hub" stations: Milan, Bologna, Florence, Rome, Naples, but also Turin, Verona, Padova, Venice Mestre, ...


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## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> Sapristi! So, FS is about to repeat the successes of Alitalia? Two hubs in a country with less than 60 million inhabitants. Whew... good luck! :nuts:
> 
> Perhaps the main hub needs not be the capital (in air transport, think Brazil, think Australia...), but I definitely think you need a main hub. And, Eddard, I definitely think its a good idea to have a (limited) number of non-stop point-to-point connections from the major cities into this hub. - Whereever it's located.


Again it's unfortunately the geography and the economical composition of Italy. There cannot be one hub. There can be several lines which meets

By the way, probably the main rail hub of Italy is....Bologna


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## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> What is Milan for you than? it's neither the italian capital nor a provincial town
> 
> 1-
> *If you guess I will explain why I believe our system will allow a good balance between service and performance compared to the French one*.



I dont' think so, Eddard. 

Nowadays between Milan and Bologna there are only less than 5/6 IC/EScity , which also serves the others - not so small - towns along the line. The IC/EScity cover the whole dstance between Milan and Roma in about 6h 40 minutes, and this is a journey time which is not good for 577kms. The fare for these snail -pace IC or ESCity is between 66 to 44 Euros , in 2nd class. 
By the way, on this main route there is an early morning Red Arrow , a sort of "rubbish broom train" picking up the passenger along the historical Milan-Bologna Line which has a travelling time between Milan - Rome of 4h 30 ' which does not justify the full AV price of Euros 109 in first, and 89 in second class.
What about the other town along the Milan -Rome -Axis? Such as Lodi, Piacenza,Parma, Reggio -Emilia, Modena, Arezzo and Orte? 

Or those on the Adriatic Line which no longer have direct services wth the nord?
Ex: Bari -Pescara-Ancona-Rimini-Bologna/Milan/Turin/Genoa

Incidentalliy to go from Bari, or Naples, or Reggio or Arezzo, or Florence - Bologna to Turin and Genova (or Paris) you DON'T have to go via Milan, unless you want to lengthen your journey of at least 3 hours.

That is what's happening with concept of the Italian Tav 
For Example the new fast connection between Turin - Trieste is as follows:

Turin -Milan via AV
Milan Bologna via AV
Bologna - Mestre with the silver arrow
Mestre - Trieste with the stopping train 

That's means a journey time between 6 to 7hrs. at about 129 Euros, for about 642kms.

Via the old route it ws 530km in about 5h 30. (in the '70s)

--------------
Please try here:

http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/np...&solotreno=0&noreservation=0&traintype=&car=0

Lille Paris 
http://www.voyages-sncf.com/billet-train/resultats?hid=BKI

Note that the Florence Rome is 261 km long,it takes between 1h 35 and 1h 45 and costs 44 Euros in 2nd class.. 

On this route no other viable option is available on early morning .

On the other hand, on the Lille- Paris
TGV solution
I can depart at 7h and it will cost me 17 Euros , journey time: 1h , journey leght 231 km.
Also apart from the TGV there are other solutions available.

PS: could you find on TreniTaglia a journey equivalent to Lille - Europe - Marseille (about 1008 kms) in about 4h 40 min. at less than Euro 25 each way? 


How much would be a single ticket Turin-Naples? Perhaps on average Euros 110, in second class and the journey will be made with combination of ES AV + Regional Trains or intecities or EN , with journey times varying from 6h 35' (the fastest) to 10 -12 hours.
It is true. Italy is a long peninsula and, after the advent of the Italian TAV, outside the Milan-Rome AV corridoir one cannot travel anymore.
http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/np...&solotreno=0&noreservation=0&traintype=&car=0



To travel to the other destinations one has to resort to buses or cars or aeroplanes.


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## Suburbanist

Well, I don't think rail travel in Italy is expensive comparing to other countries. As our TAV system is at par with the French one, there is no reason to charge the old cheap fares that plagues Trenitalia for decade when long distance rail travel in Italy was seen more as an entitlment than a service.

You picked specific routes where travel is now longer than before. You have an afternoon connection Torino - Triest changing in Milano Ce. only with an ES*City ("Frecciabranca") which takes only 5h42.

As for the routes from the Adriatic line, you could travel Lecce-Torino in 9h50, which is like crossing the whole peninsula.

As for the fares, you compare a promotional SNCF fare with a full Trenitalia fare. The fact promotional fares are not displayed in the first window doesn't preclude their existence. It is now far easier to get 30% discount if you buy your tickets with 2 weeks advance.

As for the night trains ("Expresso"), they are almost gone for good. They were slow, money-losing connections which plenty of stops in main routes, requiring, among other things, expensive night staffing of some stations which now are just gate-closed for 5/6 hours, reducing the need for security personel. A lot of people complain beucase those trains were cheap (it was possible to travel Milano-Reggio Calabria for a mere € 53, but it took 14 hours!). Their rolling stock was crap, and they interfere too much with night cargo operations. We don't need night train service in Italy anymore, I'd say - maybe a couple of non-stop services from Bologna to Reggio Calabria so people can still travel all across the country by train without having to sleep overnight in a hotel.

Trenitalia took a wise measure by start axing trains that lose money unless regions step in to subsidize them. And regions are preffering to subsidize regional stop services than long-distance trains, for obvious reasons. There is no reason to provide a cheap services for students returning home for holidays in night trains while Trenitalia is struggling to finance other pure HS or improved conventional track projects like Milano-Venezia, Salerno-Scilla and the expensive but much needed base tunnels of Brennero and Frejus.


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## GENIUS LOCI

hans280 said:


> Sapristi! So, FS is about to repeat the successes of Alitalia? Two hubs in a country with less than 60 million inhabitants.


More than 60 mio...


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## joseph1951

Suburbanist said:


> 1-
> Well, I don't think rail travel in Italy is expensive comparing to other countries.
> You picked specific routes where travel is now longer than before. You have an afternoon connection Torino - Triest changing in Milano Ce. only with an ES*City ("Frecciabranca") which takes only 5h42.
> 
> 2-
> 
> As for the routes from the Adriatic line, you could travel Lecce-Torino in 9h50, which is like crossing the whole peninsula.
> 
> As for the fares, you compare a promotional SNCF fare with a full Trenitalia fare. The fact promotional fares are not displayed in the first window doesn't preclude their existence. It is now far easier to get 30% discount if you buy your tickets with 2 weeks advance.
> 
> 3-
> 
> As for the night trains ("Expresso"), they are almost gone for good. They were slow, money-losing connections which plenty of stops in main routes, requiring, among other things, expensive night staffing of some stations which now are just gate-closed for 5/6 hours, reducing the need for security personel. A lot of people complain beucase those trains were cheap (it was possible to travel Milano-Reggio Calabria for a mere € 53, but it took 14 hours!). Their rolling stock was crap, and they interfere too much with night cargo operations. We don't need night train service in Italy anymore, I'd say - maybe a couple of non-stop services from Bologna to Reggio Calabria so people can still travel all across the country by train without having to sleep overnight in a hotel.
> ..........
> Trenitalia took a wise measure by start axing trains that lose money unless


What a nonsense. I'll soon give substantial proof of the contrary.

In the meantime.... I wish you *very sweet dreams.*


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## bazza_c

Sorry for the long post – but there are a few discussions that need addressing in the above thread.
ETR500 performance is acceptable. It may not be quite as fast as TGV – acceleration wise – but then it wasn’t -in 12 car configuration – designed for a route with the steep gradients of TGV.

The Milan to Bologna route is very similar in length to TGV Nord Europe. From Milan and Paris , the High-speed lines don’t arrive for around 13km’s. An ETR500 set will reach the start of AV line at Melegnano around the same time a TGV reaches the start of its high-speed line at Gonesse. 
Despite its much maligned lack of power compared to TGV, an ETR500 is less than a minute slower to say the 75km mark from start of journey than its TGV cousin. This is based on the two fastest runs recorded to date on both routes.

Remember that Milan Bologna has much shallower gradients (hills) than TGV Nord, so high power to weight ratio is not required by ETR500. You would need aircraft levels of acceleration to make a real difference to journey times – increase energy consumption CO2 gases etc.

And ETR500 would probably be okay on an LGV if the length was reduced to 8 coaches.
In fact if you compare the real life performance of TGV – which I have done – you will see that there can be quite a large variance in time it takes a TGV to arrive at Gonesse from Paris Gare Du Nord – sometimes depending on driving style, en route delays, engineering work and performance of the train due to weather, onboard technical issues etc. These factors can make a bigger difference than the trains acceleration. 

A colleague of mine says, “ better to have a bad train with a good driver, than a good train with a bad driver”. People underestimate the importance of a good driver. Sadly the extra safety systems introduced in recent years (KVB, SCMT, etc) mean drivers are less likely to drive close to the limits in case the safety systems intervene. 

Here in UK, it was common many years ago for a 200km/h train to be driven on or above 200km/h – as much as 205km/h. Today 195-198 km/h is normal for the same train. Why? Drivers don’t want the safety systems to stop the train for overspeeding. Also the trains have onboard monitoring equipment. A driver can be sacked for driving the train too hard, even if he doesn’t break the speed limits. They download data from the train at the depot and make routine checks on the driver. It is unbelievable to think that some train companies tell drivers not to use maximum acceleration and braking – to conserve energy and running costs – even when the train is running late.

Since we had a few accidents years ago – Ladbroke Grove etc – lower speed limits have been introduced on the approach to big stations. This makes journey times longer.

Acceleration is only an important issue when you have to make many station stops or reductions in speed. The Milan Bologna line does have a serious 240/260km/h reduction close to Modena. In fact after Modena, the ETR500 won’t make 300km/h again before Bologna. If there were two or three stations on the route, then I would be more concerned about the slothful acceleration. 

A bigger concern is the fact that ETR500 loses time on the Direttissima compared to ETR 460,470 etc. But then the timetable planners factor this in because they want to create as many train paths available as possible. It is likely that the available paths are based on the slower/ rather than the faster trains. 

In practice, I would expect ETR600/485 etc to be a couple of minutes faster over the Direttissima than ETR500, but the timetable planners probably assign a longer journey time. This means the drivers have to indulge in a NUR (No Use Rushing) strategy. This means long stretches of line spent coasting at lower than maximum speed to avoid catching up trains in front and caution signals.

Greater reductions in journey times could come by raising lower speed limits in stations etc. I mean why the long tortuous 30km/h limit in and out of the terminal stations? Increasing to 50 or 60km/h would save more than a few minutes on some of these journeys. The underground stations in Bologna and Florence will improve journey times. The biggest problem is Milan circular lines. 20 minutes to travel from Milan Certosa to Milan Rogoredo?? A high-speed Milan pypass should be a priority.

Extra time added into the timetable for delays is a problem in all countries, but people forget that the frequency of trains has increased. Would you rather be able to jump on a train every half an hour or have a service that is a few minutes quicker but only one train every one or two hrs? 

I think most people would rather arrive early or on time than travel on a service that is scheduled to be 5 or 10 minutes faster but is always late!

Once again sorry for the long post. Hope this helps.


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## makita09

I've said before the ETR500 has the same power/weight ratio as Three Capitals Eurostar (sort of ironic as they are both known as Eurostar!), as long as the ETR500 isn't forced to make many stops then I wouldn't say its massivley underpowered. A little perhaps, but its not much of an issue.


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## LUCAFUSAR

AGV is already in Italy. These photos are taken in the Trenitalia's Florence-Osmannoro maintenance facility. In the next week many tests will take place on the TAV network with this trainset.














































Photos taken from:
http://lnx.645-040.net/sito/


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## LUCAFUSAR

Again from the Alstom's family: driver's cab of the ETR600.










P.S.: clean that f*****g glass!:bash:


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## bazza_c

Can someone confirm that ETR500 sets cannot use 2 pantographs above 200km/h on direttissima? You mean to say that the driver has to lower one of the pantographs on the train if he wants to go faster than 200km/h leaving it powered by only 1 4400Kw power car?

I also understand that the same (only 1 pantograph to be used) applies above 160km/h on Turin- Milano Venezia, and Milano - Bologna - Firenze (non TAV lines) - and 130km/h on all other FS lines. Is this due to the movement of the overhead wire, or simply because the 3KV DC overhead cannot provide enough power for the 8800Kw of two power cars?
Does anyone know if the same restriction applies to TGV-R sets between Modane and Milano under 3KV DC?


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## sotavento

bazza_c said:


> Can someone confirm that ETR500 sets cannot use 2 pantographs above 200km/h on direttissima? You mean to say that the driver has to lower one of the pantographs on the train if he wants to go faster than 200km/h leaving it powered by only 1 4400Kw power car?
> 
> I also understand that the same (only 1 pantograph to be used) applies above 160km/h on Turin- Milano Venezia, and Milano - Bologna - Firenze (non TAV lines) - and 130km/h on all other FS lines. Is this due to the movement of the overhead wire, or simply because the 3KV DC overhead cannot provide enough power for the 8800Kw of two power cars?
> Does anyone know if the same restriction applies to TGV-R sets between Modane and Milano under 3KV DC?


Reason 2 ... not enough juice to feed both powercars at the same time in the old direttissima. :dunno:


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## joseph1951

bazza_c said:


> Can someone confirm that ETR500 sets cannot use 2 pantographs above 200km/h on direttissima? You mean to say that the driver has to lower one of the pantographs on the train if he wants to go faster than 200km/h leaving it powered by only 1 4400Kw power car?
> 
> I also understand that the same (only 1 pantograph to be used) applies above 160km/h on Turin- Milano Venezia, and Milano - Bologna - Firenze (non TAV lines) - and 130km/h on all other FS lines. Is this due to the movement of the overhead wire, or simply because the 3KV DC overhead cannot provide enough power for the 8800Kw of two power cars?
> Does anyone know if the same restriction applies to TGV-R sets between Modane and Milano under 3KV DC?


 Under 3000 volt dc the ETR500 speed limitation have been known since the early nineties. RFI has strict rules on this matter. Over the speed you have mentioned the two pantographs trigger dangerous ondulatory movements of the catenary. 

Therefore only one patographs is used, and this means that only one locomotive is active, and the train runs only on half power (4,400kW).

I discussed this problem earlier in this forum.

To easily and quickly reach the speed of 250km/h (as in the case of the Roma-Florence HSL) one needs at least 12,5 kW/t . On heavy formation, and with one locomotive active , the ETR500 develps only about 7.5kW/t - 8kW/ton. Therefore it can reach the top speed allowed on the Florence-Rome HSL only after a long and fairly slow acceleration.

For the Florence -Rome HSL the ETR500 is the wrong type of train. This has been known since the early stage (1990s) when the ETR500 was still a prototype. However, originally this train was planned only to operate on 3kV dc with a revenue top speed of 250-270km/h, and with a testing speed of 300km/h. 

The second series of the ETR500 is dual tension and offer ssatisfactory performance under 25kW ac . Its draw-backs are that the train is too heavy. A reduced car formation, from 12 to 8, would partially solve this problem. 

A lighter train, capabale of drawing up to 6,000 W only with pantograph active, is more suited that the ETR500 under 3kV dc HS catenary, such as the one used in the Florence -Rome HSL.


To know more:

http://www.amicitreni.it/articoli/etr500y.htm

http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&q=ETR+-+X+500+prototipo++1990&btnG=Cerca&meta=&aq=f&oq=


===========

The TGV has a different configuration but, in Italy , its speed limitation are due to RFI's regulations.

In Italy, under the 3000 volt dc the TGV has a speed limit of 160km/h. This is due to the fact tha this train does not have the train control system present in Italy.


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## Suburbanist

... which explains how TGVs are not speed-competitive in the Milano-Paris route even after the oppening of Torino-Milano HSL. They take safety very serious in Italy.


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## dreaad

TGVs cannot use the HSL turin-milan because SNCF doesn't want to install the ERTMS signalling equipment. they'll continue to run on the historical line (which has a speed limit of 160 km/h for all trains).
maybe, starting from June 2010, trenitalia will launch a new direct service (1 couple a day) from milan-turin-paris using the ETR500. they'll use the new HSL (milan-paris 6h30')


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## LUCAFUSAR

Suburbanist said:


> ... which explains how TGVs are not speed-competitive in the Milano-Paris route even after the oppening of Torino-Milano HSL. They take safety very serious in Italy.


Absolutely it's not a security matter. It's because Trenitalia and SNCF can't stand each other and they are in big clash.


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## eminencia

LUCAFUSAR said:


> Absolutely it's not a security matter. It's because Trenitalia and SNCF can't stand each other and they are in big clash.


Definitely true, the similar example can be seen in the case of Slovenian Pendolino served EC Casanova which has been discontinued due to Italian law obstructions and now Slovenian ministry of transport is succesfuly blocking the negotiations of Trieste-Ljubljana HSR trying to negotiate better position for its growing Port of Koper.


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## Coccodrillo

eminencia said:


> ...and now Slovenian ministry of transport is succesfuly blocking the negotiations of Trieste-Ljubljana HSR trying to negotiate better position for its growing Port of Koper.


Very good idea!


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## LUCAFUSAR

G5man said:


> AnsladoBreda already sends shivers down my spine since they have failed on many occasions to deliver on-time. Trenitalia really screwed themselves up and will be kicking themselves in the butt if these trains do not arrive on-time.


The trains will be made by Bombardier in the AnsaldoBreda facilities. They are not AnsaldoBreda trains.


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## GENIUS LOCI

K_ said:


> Sure planes never need to land...


Airports are similar to ports in concept: if you own a ship or a plane you can go anywhere and only mind of starting and arrival points, where ports or airports are. 

If you own a train stations are your starting and arrival points, but you can't go anywhere because you have to run on an infrastructure (which someone owns and spend money for its maintanence)


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## joseph1951

GENIUS LOCI said:


> *New HS train for Trenitalia*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.apcom.net/newseconomia/20100802_184948_4e8fd52_94231.html
> 
> 50 new trainsets built by a consortium between Canadian Bombardier and Italian AnsaldoBreda
> 
> The trains should run at a speed of 360 km/h with a potential max. speed of 400 km/h
> All the 50 trains Trenitalia is gonna buy will be built in Italy


Probably the ETR1000 ('i.e: the Bombardier/AnsaldoBreda Zefiro V300+ concept repackaged into Etr 1000) will probably have an output of 8,800 kW /t, and according to the very recent press release, "it will be able to accelerate from 0 to 360 km/h in just a little more than 9 minutes[/B]". (sic!)
It will have an acceleration of 0,6 m/s2 ,probably up to 50 kmph.

Also, it appears that this train will embody "the relvolutionary feature" of *"secondary active lateral suspension" *, or similar device - "which will allow the train to negotiate curves at higher speeds than conventional trains but with no increase of disconfort for passenger". (sic!)

Apparently they do not know that similar devices have been in use for sometime. Secondary active lateral suspensions are also mounted on the ETR500 carriages, and some of them have been built about 20 years ago.

Conclusion: apart for the ugly redering it would appear that there is nothing revolutionary about this expensive train.

Probably the final specs will be different than those just published.

http://www.lifeinitaly.com/news/ansaldo-bombardier-win-train-contract


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## Alvar Lavague

Concerning the renderings, according to this website , it's just a Trenitalia internal concept probably different from what the consortium proposes.


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## Eddard Stark

let's see how this train will be.

It's interesting to know thought that in Italy we will have a lot of new rolling stock coming in the following years, the 25 AGV and these 50 Bombardier.

that's very good news


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## LUCAFUSAR

joseph1951 said:


> Probably the ETR1000 ('i.e: the Bombardier/AnsaldoBreda Zefiro V300 concept repackaged into Etr 1000) will probably have an output of 8,800 kW /t, and according to the very recent press release, "it will be able to accelerate from 0 to 360 km/h in just a little more than 9 minutes[/B]". (sic!)
> It will have an acceleration of 0,6 m/s2 ,probably up to 50 kmph.
> 
> Also, it appears that this train will embody "the relvolutionary feature" of *"secondary active lateral suspension" *, or similar device - "which will allow the train to negotiate curves at higher speeds than conventional trains but with no increase of disconfort for passenger". (sic!)
> 
> Apparently they do no tknow that similar devices have been in use for sometime. Secondary active lateral suspensions are also mounted on the ETR500 carriages, and some of them have been built about 20 years ago.
> 
> Conclusion: apart for the ugly redering it would appear that there is nothing revolutionary about this expensive little ugly monster .
> 
> http://www.lifeinitaly.com/news/ansaldo-bombardier-win-train-contract


This is not the train chosen by Tranitalia.


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## LUCAFUSAR

Alvar Lavague said:


> Concerning the renderings, according to this website , it's just a Trenitalia internal concept probably different from what the consortium proposes.


Exactly.


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## joseph1951

LUCAFUSAR said:


> This is not the train chosen by Tranitalia.


No the picture in the article is that of ETR500 in frecciarossa livery, but the article describes the technical specification of the new train ETR1000.

Also the article quotes Mr Roberto Tazzoli, the CEO of AnsaldoBreda.

So the report would apper to be essentially genuine.


----------



## joseph1951

LUCAFUSAR said:


> Exactly.


So what is the train that Trenitalia wants? . This train or... *What*?

And why the consortium suggests a given train, and TI divulge a train with different specification, and different shape?

Who is going to benefit from publishing this image, and also specifications which are different (and inferior) from those commissioned for the alleged real train, which will be purchsed by TI?

Who is going to benefit from this type of dis-information?

Certainly not the public image of Trenitalia.


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## Marie-Joseph-Paul

*segnalare il troll*

hno:si però non è possibile che ogni pagina ci siano messaggi chilometrici e senza senso del solito troll con i suoi cloni, che tra l'altro cerca attraverso teorie assurde prese da pagine tipo wikipedia di fare flame infiniti....
questi pesonaggi vanno segnalati, perchè impediscono agli altri di partecipare alla discussione.:cheers:


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## Suburbanist

Marie-Joseph-Paul said:


> hno:si però non è possibile che ogni pagina ci siano messaggi chilometrici e senza senso del solito troll con i suoi cloni, che tra l'altro cerca attraverso teorie assurde prese da pagine tipo wikipedia di fare flame infiniti....
> questi pesonaggi vanno segnalati, perchè impediscono agli altri di partecipare alla discussione.:cheers:


Cos'è successo? Chi è il troll?


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

joseph1951 said:


> So what is the train that Trenitalia wants? . This train or... *What*?
> 
> And why the consortium suggests a given train, and TI divulge a train with different specification, and different shape?
> 
> Who is going to benefit from publishing this image, and also specifications which are different (and inferior) from those commissioned for the alleged real train, which will be purchsed by TI?
> 
> Who is going to benefit from this type of dis-information?
> 
> Certainly not the public image of Trenitalia.


Your previous post doesn't contain the exact technical specification of the new train. Period.


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## LUCAFUSAR

K_ said:


> We're getting there. There already exist rolling stock leasing companies. Starting a company and leasing a few engines than can get from Rotterdam ll the way to the Swiss - Italian border is not a problem (there you'll soon have to put your train on a ferry if Trenitalia gets its way ).
> There exist standards for train constuction (TSI) and signalling (ERMTS). This only needs some time.
> The problem of the differing OHLE systems however has been reliably solved, and is really a non issue at the moment. All manufacturers now more or less offer multi system locomotives as standard.


There are many trains that come from the Netherlands and reach Italy (Autoslaap) and none of those trains are managed by Trenidiotalia.


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## Railfan

Alvar Lavague said:


> Concerning the renderings, according to this website , it's just a Trenitalia internal concept probably different from what the consortium proposes.


*¿?*


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## joseph1951

Marie-Joseph-Paul said:


> hno:si però non è possibile che ogni pagina ci siano messaggi chilometrici e senza senso del solito troll con i suoi cloni, che tra l'altro cerca attraverso teorie assurde prese da pagine tipo wikipedia di fare flame infiniti....
> questi pesonaggi vanno segnalati, perchè impediscono agli altri di partecipare alla discussione.:cheers:


1-

[B*]Quick translation of Mr Marie-Joseph -Paul' s post:*
"Report the troll


*In not possible that in every page there are meaningless and a miles long meassages posted by the usual troll and his clones, a troll who - among other things - tries with absurd theories taken from wikipedia like-pages to produce endless flames".

These people must be reported because they prevents "the others" from partecipating to the discussion" *[/B]


*Could Mr Marie-Joseph Paul (Lafayette ) specify the following:*

1- 
Who are "the troll and clones"?
2-
Who IS "a troll who - among other things"..
3-
"tries with absurd theories" .. Wich Ones?

4-
"taken from wikipedia like-pages " (WHat ?, Where? ,When?)

5-

"to produce endless flames". Which One, Lafayette?
6-

"These people" must be reported because they prevents "the others" from partecipating to the discussion"
Which people, which Others" which discussion are you referring Marie-Jospeh Paul (Lafayette)?



*Apart from having posted a large number o similar albeit more abusive messages on a couple ot thread on the Italian SSC section Mr Marie Paul Lafayette has not produced any intelligent or significant or polite contribution to the italian thread. *
*However , after his first apperance occured a couple o weeks ago on the Italian SSC section he has enlighted the Italian mortals introducing himself by quoting the entry on the Encyclopaedia Britannica on Marie Joseph Paul Lafayette*http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked...s-Roch-Gilbert-du-Motier-marquis-de-Lafayette
"born Sept. 6, 1757, Chavaniac, Fr.
died May 20, 1834, Paris

%%%%%%%%%%%%%

*French aristocrat who fought with the American colonists against the British in the American Revolution. Later, by allying himself with the revolutionary bourgeoisie, he became one of the most powerful men in France during the first few years of the French Revolution.*_*Born into an ancient noble family, Lafayette had already inherited an immense fortune by the time he married the daughter of the influential duc d’Ayen in 1774. He joined the circle of young courtiers at the court ... (100 of 779 words) *_


%%%%%%%%%%%%
Welcome back the world Monsieur Lafayette!


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## joseph1951

Railfan said:


> *¿?*


Yes effectively the ugly rendering seems to be inspired by the Korean high speed train HEMU-400X (I think..?)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=756946&page=5


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## manrush

I thought it looked more akin to the Zefiro.









http://www.finmeccanica.com/EN/Common/images/Corporate/Comunicati_Stampa_2010/V300_Zefiro_cs.jpg









http://www.railwaygazette.com/typo3temp/pics/437a6139cb.jpg


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## Eddard Stark

Construction of Bologna underground station (next to the current non-HSR one) and the tunnel under the city that connects Milano-Bologna HSR, Verona-Bologna, Venezia-Bologna and Bologna-Firenze HSR

Today trains have still to manage the surface lines that are shared among all other kind of trains



huge said:


> Dal link fornito da hakumomo:
> 
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> 
> Estratto dall'articolo:
> _Ed eccoci nel futuro: il cantiere di quello che viene chiamato il «camerone» della stazione Av lascia senza fiato per l’imponenza. Qui, proprio sopra i palazzi di via Carracci i cui abitanti da anni protestano per polveri e rumori, siamo dentro un «bacino» profondo 16 metri: ne mancano ancora 5 e l’obiettivo è centrato. Ma dall’alto, all’inizio dello scavo, *in alcuni punti si riesce a intravedere il piano-binari a -23 metri*, dove è già stato realizzato il fondo._
> 
> Immagini tratte da _Corriere di Bologna.it_


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## LUCAFUSAR

manrush said:


> I thought it looked more akin to the Zefiro.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.finmeccanica.com/EN/Common/images/Corporate/Comunicati_Stampa_2010/V300_Zefiro_cs.jpg
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> http://www.railwaygazette.com/typo3temp/pics/437a6139cb.jpg


Yes, this is the correct render.:yes:


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## joseph1951

LUCAFUSAR said:


> Yes, this is the correct render.:yes:


Yes Luca.


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## Eddard Stark

still prefer the AGV


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## Railfan

*Pronto il secondo treno Italo!
*


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## Cori

Thi is the 360° photo of Trenitalia's ETR1000 Zefiro...

http://www.360cities.net/image/inno...iro-high-speed-train-mockup#310.50,16.80,77.0


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## Railfan




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## Artemix

Railfan said:


>


:bow::bow::bow:
:bow::bow::bow:
:bow::bow::bow:


Ωρτimuş;65247739 said:


> *Speedelia, the new Alstom’s AGV*
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> lepays.fr
> 
> 
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> 
> msnbcmedia.msn.com


:bow::bow::bow:
:bow::bow::bow:
:bow::bow::bow:


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## GENIUS LOCI

TORINO Porta Susa station work in progress



normy89 said:


> Ciao a tutti!!!
> 
> oggi sono riuscito ad andare in cantiere e ho fatto qualche foto. :banana:
> 
> L'impressione dell'avanzamento lavori è stata molto buona. Ragazzi, avremo una stazione STRAORDINARIA ! ! ! ! ! Stare sotto quella volta di vetro è stata un'emozione unica!!! Credo che chi si trovò sotto la volta di vetro di Porta Nuova nel 1868 abbia provato la mia stessa emozione.
> 
> Ecco qui alcune foto:


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## GENIUS LOCI

ROMA Tiburtina station work in progress



Tisov84 said:


>


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## Palatinus

Vorrei conoscere il mio connazionale che ha il coraggio di scrivere riguardo all'italiana questio su questo forum. Io mi vergognerei.


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## dumbfword

When is the planned opening for ROMA Tiburtina station?


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## Eddard Stark

dumbfword said:


> When is the planned opening for ROMA Tiburtina station?


I don't think earlier than 2012

However a small piece of Porta Susa station in Turin will open next year

Also other 2 big stations are U/C, Afragola in Naples and Belfiore in Florence. 2013 and 2014 at least for those I think


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## Coccodrillo

2014 for Belfiore is utopic...


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## Eddard Stark

Coccodrillo said:


> 2014 for Belfiore is utopic...


it's U/C, 4 years shall be enough. Anyways, this is the official date...but I agree it may very well go to 2015

Provided there are no problems of course with the construction company etc

today they started building the perimetral walls of the station, while also the preliminary works for the underground tunnel which will bypass Florence surface railtracks are underway


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## Eddard Stark

Of course I forgot Bologna AV station, realistically to be opened in 2012


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## timo9

Any update for these projects ?


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## GENIUS LOCI

I posted some updates on _Italian TAV_ thread

*Torino - Porta Susa station*



normy89 said:


> Ciao a tutti!!!
> 
> oggi sono riuscito ad andare in cantiere e ho fatto qualche foto. :banana:
> 
> L'impressione dell'avanzamento lavori è stata molto buona. Ragazzi, avremo una stazione STRAORDINARIA ! ! ! ! ! Stare sotto quella volta di vetro è stata un'emozione unica!!! Credo che chi si trovò sotto la volta di vetro di Porta Nuova nel 1868 abbia provato la mia stessa emozione.
> 
> Ecco qui alcune foto:





normy89 said:


> Visto il successo che hanno avuto, carico qualke altra foto! Spero siano altrettanto interessantikay: ....
> 
> ... laggiù credo ke verranno delle sedi di binari, *che dite?!?!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... un particolare delle lastre di copertura


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## GENIUS LOCI

*Roma - Tiburtina station*



Tisov84 said:


> proseguono i lavori dell'atrio nomentano
> 
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> 
> particolare ascensore e copertura
> 
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> l'ampiezza dell'atrio e dell'altra metà della piazza ipogea
> 
> 
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> 
> i primi solai in assemblaggio?





Tisov84 said:


>


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## Eddard Stark

Pictures of Firenze-Bologna HSR (active from Dec 2009). The line is almost entirely underground, as it crosses the appennines

Speed is 300 km/h 




Paxromana said:


> Da Trainzitalia - San Pellegrino (FI). Nick: TkMatt





ricciecapricci said:


>


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## dreaad

awesome pictures!!


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## (fabrizio)

From Dec. 12th Trenitalia will offer wi-fi services on its flagship high speed routes (Turin-Milan-Rome-Naples). As it often happens with TI, a good news hides a bad one: the service will be offered for free for the first month but, after this free trial period has elapsed, travellers willing to use Internet on a train will be charged a yet unknown amount of money. Let me remind you that a full-fare second class ticket from Milan to Rome, one way, costs the best part of 89 euro which is a lot IMHO.


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## thun

Well, it's not too bad if you look at the Spanish AVE or the ICE. But compared to the regular fares of Trenitalia, the Frecciarossa is rather expensive indeed.


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## K_

Eddard Stark said:


> Besides our main link with europe are not east-west but north-south. Even Paris could be reached one day through the Gotthard rather than Freius. Our main trading partner is Germany, there is much less traffic towards mediterranean France and Spain


The logical route for Paris - Milano is via the Simplon. (The Simplon tunnel was part financed by French interests).

A through train Paris - Dijon - Lausanne - Milano would do the trip in about the same time as the route via the Freius tunnel. This is actually the route the night trains take currently, but a daytrain would be usefull too.


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## Eddard Stark

K_ said:


> The logical route for Paris - Milano is via the Simplon. (The Simplon tunnel was part financed by French interests).
> 
> A through train Paris - Dijon - Lausanne - Milano would do the trip in about the same time as the route via the Freius tunnel. This is actually the route the night trains take currently, but a daytrain would be usefull too.


in this case - clearly I cannot express myself - I meant freight. I do not believe rail will ever be competitive for connections between north europe (Paris included) and Italy

The main reason to make the two tunnels (Gotthard and Brenner) is to improve freight and allow north Europe to use mediterranean ports instead of Atlantic for traffic. Gotthard also has a (limited) passenger use to connect Switzerland and south Germany with north Italy, but that's about it

Distances are too large and the terrain too difficult to allow real HSR passenger traffic accross the alps the same way as it is now accross the channel between France, Benelux and UK


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## Eddard Stark

that having being said, I think rail freight in the future would find easier to use - from northern France and UK - Gotthard rather than Freius. Therefore there is no absolute need - both from passenger and freight point of view - to duplicate Gotthard towards the west


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## sekelsenmat

Suburbanist said:


> Our "autostrade" are happily open to disgruntled rail commuters


Suburbanist, the anti-rail troll in action.

Your plan is hijacking 100% of train threads in skyscrapercity for your pro-pollution and anti-regional rail propaganda?


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## K_

Eddard Stark said:


> in this case - clearly I cannot express myself - I meant freight.


The logical route for freight depends on where it's coming from. Freight enterining Switzerland in Basel mostly comes from the Low Countries and Germany, and can choose between the Lötschberg and Gotthard routes. However from the Paris area, the logical route is via Dijon and then on to the Simplon, same for freight entering via Geneva. 



> I do not believe rail will ever be competitive for connections between north europe (Paris included) and Italy


Wait till oil becomes to expensive to pour in to airplanes...


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## Eddard Stark

K_ said:


> The logical route for freight depends on where it's coming from. Freight enterining Switzerland in Basel mostly comes from the Low Countries and Germany, and can choose between the Lötschberg and Gotthard routes. However from the Paris area, the logical route is via Dijon and then on to the Simplon, same for freight entering via Geneva.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait till oil becomes to expensive to pour in to airplanes...


Logical yes, but the new Gotthard changes everything: it will be a "base" tunnel very good for freight, while the Simplon is not so. My theory is that - after opening of Gotthard - most of the freight also from France/UK will be channeled through the new, easier and faster, Gottardo. That will make the old and traditional routes through freius and simplon uncompetitive.

Theoretically a cheaper "freight solution" compared to Freius (but still not so useful in my opinon) would be to make a new simplon base tunnel between Italy and Switzerland, but I think the swiss are already overstretched with the Gottardo project, maybe in the 20'' we could start working on this

We are talking about few km difference, a 57 km base tunnel can change the current status

ps: Trains on such long distances and HSR in particular will never be competitive in price with airplanes, even with oil at 400 dollars a barrel adjusted for inflation


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## K_

Eddard Stark said:


> Theoretically a cheaper "freight solution" compared to Freius (but still not so useful in my opinon) would be to make a new simplon base tunnel between Italy and Switzerland, but I think the swiss are already overstretched with the Gottardo project, maybe in the 20'' we could start working on this


But where would such a "base" tunnel begin. At the Swiss side the current Simplon tunnel already starts at the valley floor level. 



> ps: Trains on such long distances and HSR in particular will never be competitive in price with airplanes, even with oil at 400 dollars a barrel adjusted for inflation


Trains are already price competitive with planes one such distances. I can travel Milano - Köln a lot cheaper by train then by plane. The railways should however stop guarding their prices as if it were national secrets...

A third of the current cost of air travel is energy. Do you think that prices will remain low when oil quadruples in price? I would expect a rough doubling of prices in such a case.


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## Eddard Stark

K_ said:


> But where would such a "base" tunnel begin. At the Swiss side the current Simplon tunnel already starts at the valley floor level.
> 
> 
> 
> Trains are already price competitive with planes one such distances. I can travel Milano - Köln a lot cheaper by train then by plane. The railways should however stop guarding their prices as if it were national secrets...
> 
> A third of the current cost of air travel is energy. Do you think that prices will remain low when oil quadruples in price? I would expect a rough doubling of prices in such a case.


1) the current Simplon tunnel has a very steep ramp on the italian side which prevents its usage as a "main" freight tunnel. I do not remember if also the dimension of the tunnel is a problem, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is. Probably Coccodrillo can answer this. So the Loetchberg tunnel as of today is quite useless for north-south trade 

2) Train fares on long distance HSR are expensive already. Any Paris-Milan connection (for example) that is completely HSR would cost 200€ one way, or something similar (bar promotional prices). Air fares - true - will increase but planes are getting more energy efficient and the component of the fuel - eveni if doubled or quadrupled in price - will not entirely compensate the difference in price between HSR and Air on long distances.

3) On top of that, it's impossible to reach Italy (Milan, Turin, Venice, Bologna, Rome...the main destinations in Italy) within the 4 hours maximum that allow train to be competitive with air travel in terms of comfort and travel lenght

I am - no mistake - a big fan of rail and rail transport. But rail has a great - actually wonderful - future for short (commuters) and medium (within 4 hours) trips among big cities, not for fairly long range destinations.

The Alps and geofraphical complexity between Italy and north Europe will always prevent to reach the results that French achieved - for Example - with the Paris-Marseille route


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## Coccodrillo

K_ said:


> But where would such a "base" tunnel begin. At the Swiss side the current Simplon tunnel already starts at the valley floor level.


There were various official proposals, but none reached any advanced stage.

One was for a tunnel between Visp and Domodossola (about 35 km long, climbing from 275 m to 700 m this means an average slope of 12‰), another one was for a single track line Domodossola-Iselle to be used only by climbing trains.


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## K_

Eddard Stark said:


> 2) Train fares on long distance HSR are expensive already.


Like 39 euro for Aachen - Bern for example...
Don't forget that the cheap airfares usually handed out as comparison are promotional fares too.



> Air fares - true - will increase but planes are getting more energy efficient and the component of the fuel - eveni if doubled or quadrupled in price - will not entirely compensate the difference in price between HSR and Air on long distances.


Airplanes are getting more efficient, that is true. But there is not that much that still can be gained there. When the oil prices went up in 2007-2008 the low cost airlines all had to announce profit warnings. Ryanair even foresaw a loss, and was saved at the last moment by oil prices dropping again. About 25 airlines went bankrupt in early 2008...
The margins in the airline industry are very thin, and an increase in fuel prices will hit it hard when it comes, especially in the short and medium haul where high fuel efficiency can't be achieved.
And you are forgetting another thing: Airline travel is gradually becoming very unpleasant. It's the reason why I don't fly anymore. I and my wife actually find an 8 hour train trip more pleasant than a 1 1/2 hour plane trip (which totals to about six hours all included anyway). And we are not alone there. 



> 3) On top of that, it's impossible to reach Italy (Milan, Turin, Venice, Bologna, Rome...the main destinations in Italy) within the 4 hours maximum that allow train to be competitive with air travel in terms of comfort and travel length


It doesn't have too. I think many people will prefer to travel 7 hours for 150 euro in stead of 2 hours for 200 euro plus having to pose for a nude picture.


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## Eddard Stark

K_ said:


> Like 39 euro for Aachen - Bern for example...
> Don't forget that the cheap airfares usually handed out as comparison are promotional fares too.
> 
> 
> 
> Airplanes are getting more efficient, that is true. But there is not that much that still can be gained there. When the oil prices went up in 2007-2008 the low cost airlines all had to announce profit warnings. Ryanair even foresaw a loss, and was saved at the last moment by oil prices dropping again. About 25 airlines went bankrupt in early 2008...
> The margins in the airline industry are very thin, and an increase in fuel prices will hit it hard when it comes, especially in the short and medium haul where high fuel efficiency can't be achieved.
> And you are forgetting another thing: Airline travel is gradually becoming very unpleasant. It's the reason why I don't fly anymore. I and my wife actually find an 8 hour train trip more pleasant than a 1 1/2 hour plane trip (which totals to about six hours all included anyway). And we are not alone there.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't have too. I think many people will prefer to travel 7 hours for 150 euro in stead of 2 hours for 200 euro plus having to pose for a nude picture.


Nobody likes to travel 7 hours, or very few (too few to make a business). Your personal likes/dislikes do not change this fact


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## K_

Eddard Stark said:


> Nobody likes to travel 7 hours, or very few (too few to make a business).


That's now what I see. Every year hundreds of thousends of people travel from the Low Countries and Germany to the South of France and Italy. In their cars. Often spending 20+ hours on the road.

The major reason why railways don't have a meaningful market share in this segment is that they're not even trying.


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## Stainless

K_ said:


> That's now what I see. Every year hundreds of thousends of people travel from the Low Countries and Germany to the South of France and Italy. In their cars. Often spending 20+ hours on the road.
> 
> The major reason why railways don't have a meaningful market share in this segment is that they're not even trying.


This is true. Also many people will go for the absolutely lowest fare they can find, regardless of how long it takes or how. This is why long distance bus routes still operate on routes like Bucharest-London.


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## Eddard Stark

K_ said:


> That's now what I see. Every year hundreds of thousends of people travel from the Low Countries and Germany to the South of France and Italy. In their cars. Often spending 20+ hours on the road.
> 
> The major reason why railways don't have a meaningful market share in this segment is that they're not even trying.


a HSR is a very expensive infrastructure that can be justified only by a mix of business and leisure travel. 

Otherwise there will never be the demand for the enormous cost involved into building one.

SO there will never be HSR between Italy (north) and north europe.

There can be some service as you said, actually there are already. But they are a small niche compared to air and car travel and will always be


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## K_

Eddard Stark said:


> There can be some service as you said, actually there are already. But they are a small niche compared to air and car travel and will always be


I don't think rail travel will remain a niche. Never say never, things change. If there is one thing that is certain is that those that claim that something "will always be" are most likely to be wrong.
What do you think the chances for rail would be in a world where oil is 400$ a barrel and a full cavity search mandatory before boarding a plane?
What about a world where most people drive electric cars with a practical range of a few 100 km?


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## sekelsenmat

K_ said:


> What about a world where most people drive electric cars with a practical range of a few 100 km?


Not to mention that the ridiculously high amount of power required for powering cars for everyone would make the electricity prices skyrocket and dramatically increase product prices when this hits the industries. Actually cars would require so much electricity (65% of the current power demand would be necessary to power cars) that switching even in a 10-years timeframe would simply result in widespread blackouts.


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## K_

sekelsenmat said:


> Not to mention that the ridiculously high amount of power required for powering cars for everyone would make the electricity prices skyrocket and dramatically increase product prices when this hits the industries. Actually cars would require so much electricity (65% of the current power demand would be necessary to power cars) that switching even in a 10-years timeframe would simply result in widespread blackouts.


We'll just buy small prefab nuclear power plants from the Chinese...


----------



## Eddard Stark

K_ said:


> I don't think rail travel will remain a niche. Never say never, things change. If there is one thing that is certain is that those that claim that something "will always be" are most likely to be wrong.
> What do you think the chances for rail would be in a world where oil is 400$ a barrel and a full cavity search mandatory before boarding a plane?
> What about a world where most people drive electric cars with a practical range of a few 100 km?


you keep misunderstanding me: rail has a wonderful future on short and medium range distances (within 4 hours). I just don't believe in long distance.


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## Attus

Guys, please translate this theoretical discuss to clear facts (no offense to any side, I'm simply interested). How many people use Frecciarossa between Milano and Roma (I mean from M to R, so excluding e.g. Bologna - Firenze passangers)?
How many people use the car for such a trip? And how many take a flight? 
Do you have any data?


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## Coccodrillo

As far I remember before the opening of the HSL the Linate-Roma airline had around 3 million passengers per year.


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## Eddard Stark

Attus said:


> Guys, please translate this theoretical discuss to clear facts (no offense to any side, I'm simply interested). How many people use Frecciarossa between Milano and Roma (I mean from M to R, so excluding e.g. Bologna - Firenze passangers)?
> How many people use the car for such a trip? And how many take a flight?
> Do you have any data?


the discussion had nothing to do with Roma-Milano but with international connection between north europe and north Italy

Regarding Roma-Milano the data are like this:

Before HSR:

Airplane: 52%
Train: 32%
Car: 16%

Now

Airplane: 38%
Train: 50%
Car: 12% 

In 2008 air traffic between Milan and Rome was 2.4 million passengers, making it the second most used internal line of Europe

Consider however that the Rome-Milan line is in reality used for many other connections, the main line involving also links among Turin, Florence, Bologna, Naples, Salerno with Rome and Milan and among themselves (unlike other HSR of the continent which mainly involve connecting the provincial towns to the capital). 

The process of "switch" between car/air and train is still ongoing as the final stretch of HSR has only been opened this year and construction is still ongoing on the hurban stretches of Florence and Bologna


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## Railfan




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## Railfan




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## Axelferis

i'm surprised that italy makes its" railways revolution"!
Similar to the french one in early 90's!

The AGV is french technical inspired, the stations are french inspired (Duthileul french Sncf architect) with 3 or 2 levels: mezzanine-space circulation and point of view+ quais embarcation and all of this with a longitudinal way of walking circulating!

France inspires Railways Europe! :cheers:


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## Eddard Stark

Axelferis said:


> i'm surprised that italy makes its" railways revolution"!
> Similar to the french one in early 90's!
> 
> The AGV is french technical inspired, the stations are french inspired (Duthileul french Sncf architect) with 3 or 2 levels: mezzanine-space circulation and point of view+ quais embarcation and all of this with a longitudinal way of walking circulating!
> 
> France inspires Railways Europe! :cheers:


our HSR is more a mix of French and German concepts. Fast lines but passing through cities rather than skipping them and connecting cities among themselves rather than just ASAP to the Capital. This is because we do not have a real capital dominating all other cities, much like Germany rather than France

The current rolling stock (ETR500) is a very italian affair. New trains will be made by Bombardier (Trenitalia) and Alstom (NTV) not only Alstom.

We have had a HSL between Florence and Rome since the 70' by the way

Ah, we will be the only contry with real HS competition among two competitors (NTV and Trenitalia) while France keeps its monopoly. Something where we are in my opinion innovating


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## dumbfword

wow. NTV AGV looks great!


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## Axelferis

AGV uses Boggies French TGV technology. The best when come to security criteria!


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## Eddard Stark

dumbfword said:


> wow. NTV AGV looks great!


actually it does


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## Attus

Eddard Stark said:


> Regarding Roma-Milano the data are like this:


Thank you!


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## Eddard Stark

Construction of the Bologna hurban HSR stretch is still ongoing, the work is colossal: almost 12 km of underground tunnels under the city and the below humongous underground HSR station right side by side with the old (superficial) one



ricciecapricci said:


> Un paio di foto di quello che è visibile a tutti, per il camerone.
> Sembra che con lo scavo siano arrivati al fondo, eccetto la parte centrale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sullo sfondo si vedono i silos in vicinanza del quale si era aperta la voragine nei giorni scaorsi


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## endrity

Truly impressive!


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## Suburbanist

^^ Indeed. Too bad they have no plans for such a thing in Milano, which will hamper travel times to/from Torino and Malpensa Airport to anywhere south or west of Milano for at least another 20 years. They should build an all-underground "T" connecting high speed lines from Torino, Venezia (u/c) and Bologna, coupled with a new underground stations for HS trains.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Indeed. Too bad they have no plans for such a thing in Milano, which will hamper travel times to/from Torino and Malpensa Airport to anywhere south or west of Milano for at least another 20 years. They should build an all-underground "T" connecting high speed lines from Torino, Venezia (u/c) and Bologna, coupled with a new underground stations for HS trains.


They could use the passante, and have trains call at Garibaldi.


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## Coccodrillo

No because underground platforms in Garibaldi are too short and there is no connection between the HSL and the S-Bahn tunnel near Rogoredo. And its low capacity (16 tph) is still needed for suburban trains.


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## Satrapo

Axelferis said:


> i'm surprised that italy makes its" railways revolution"!
> Similar to the french one in early 90's!
> 
> The AGV is french technical inspired, the stations are french inspired (Duthileul french Sncf architect) with 3 or 2 levels: mezzanine-space circulation and point of view+ quais embarcation and all of this with a longitudinal way of walking circulating!
> 
> France inspires Railways Europe! :cheers:


I don't want hurt your French pride but Italian railways were the first to introduce the concept of high-speed train in Europe.


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## petrovic79

Coccodrillo said:


> No because underground platforms in Garibaldi are too short and there is no connection between the HSL and the S-Bahn tunnel near Rogoredo. And its low capacity (16 tph) is still needed for suburban trains.


Yes, the only trains in the "Passante" are only the FrecciaRossa from Torino to Roma. These trains don't stop in Milano Centrale. The others trains from Milano Porta Garibaldi will use the external ring.


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## Coccodrillo

Torino-Roma trains use the so-called "Passantino" tunnel (around 1600 m) stopping in Porta Garibaldi (surface) then running on the "Cintura" (the railway around the city). No trains other than suburban use the "Passante" tunnel (around 7700 m).


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## Suburbanist

Apparently, the new Rogoredo-Malpensa Airport high speed trains (Frecciarossa) use the Passante southern branch. There are regular Le Nord trains operating from Rogoredo to MAlpensa too.


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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Apparently, the new Rogoredo-Malpensa Airport high speed trains (Frecciarossa) use the Passante southern branch.


No they don't. In this case it was for a test (politic) run Rogoredo-Malpensa, in another known one was because the Cintura line was closed (with a Roma-Torino with passengers on board). No train other than suburban uses regularly the Passante.


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## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> the discussion had nothing to do with Roma-Milano but with international connection between north europe and north Italy
> 
> Regarding Roma-Milano the data are like this:
> 1-
> *Before HSR:*
> *Airplane: 52%*Train: 32%
> Car: 16%
> 
> *Now*
> *Airplane: 38%*Train: 50%
> Car: 12%
> 
> In 2008 air traffic between Milan and Rome was *2.4 million passengers,* making it the second most used internal line of Europe
> 
> Consider however that the Rome-Milan line is in reality used for many other connections, the main line involving also links among Turin, Florence, Bologna, Naples, Salerno with Rome and Milan and among themselves (unlike other HSR of the continent which mainly involve connecting the provincial towns to the capital).
> 
> 2-
> The process of "switch" between car/air and train is still ongoing as the final stretch of HSR has only been opened this year and construction is still ongoing on the hurban stretches of Florence and Bologna


1-
So, after the completion of the HSL MIlan-Rome the HST has taken *only * about 800.00 passenger/year from the aeroplane. *That is to say less than 3,000 passenger a day* with 72 daily runs and considerable discounted fares.

Also the present offer of 36 non-stop HSTs trains, and of 36 HSTs calling at Bologna and Florence seems to be excessive, since each ETR500 carry about 600 passengers. 

The Milan-Roma line is long only 560 kms. One does not build such an expensive and *slow HSL to subtract from the aeroplane less than 3,000 pax/day*.

The opening of the Bologna underpass will shave a few minutes off the present 3hrs journey times, for non stop HSTs. 

In order to capture from the aeroplane 95% of the passengers the journey time between Milan and Rome should be around 2h and 15'. The Milan -Naples shloud be around 3hrs ~ 3hrs 15'. 
At present, from Milan to Bologna, Florence, Rome and Naples there are only a handful of IC trains, which have been turned into long-distance snail-slow stopping trains, and for this reason the HSTs have an average seat occupancy of about 50% .

Any traditional IC, capable of 200~220 km/h can do a non-stop Milan-Rome in about 3h , 3h and 15, and a Milan Naples non-stop in 4h 20'. 

It takes a a great genius to build an over-specified and astronomically expensive ( and allegedly 300+ km/h HSL main corridor), to obtain average speeds, which in some cases are lower than those achieved on the British ECML and WCML.

For instance: the Rome-Florence is 252 km long (of which 232 kms allow 250km/h running) and yet it has journey times of 1h and 30', 1h 35 minutes. 


This does non compare favourably with the London- York journey times.

2-
On completion of the ongoing works in Bologna and Florence the HS trains will be speeded up by some 10-15 minutes.


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## makita09

joseph1951 said:


> 1-
> So, after the completion of the HSL MIlan-Rome the HST has taken *only * about 800.00 passenger/year from the aeroplane. *That is to say less than 3,000 passenger a day* with 72 daily runs and considerable discounted fares.


You can't deduce that mathematically. Only if the total number of journeys remains static would your figures be correct. Unless we know that we can't work anything out.


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## K_

joseph1951 said:


> 1-
> So, after the completion of the HSL MIlan-Rome the HST has taken *only * about 800.00 passenger/year from the aeroplane. *That is to say less than 3,000 passenger a day* with 72 daily runs and considerable discounted fares.


The line hasn't been open long yet. Just give it a bit of time. And it will be interesting what will happen once Italo starts running on this route.



> Also the present offer of 36 non-stop HSTs trains, and of 36 HSTs calling at Bologna and Florence seems to be excessive, since each ETR500 carry about 600 passengers.


If this is excessive the line should never have been build. If you really want to make an expensive piece of infrastructure make sense you should run a lot more trains. SNCF runs trains every 3 minutes on some of its lines.


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## Coccodrillo

K_ said:


> If you really want to make an expensive piece of infrastructure make sense you should run a lot more trains.


The Milano-Torino HSL costed 7.8 billions euro and has 8 train pairs daily...


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> The Milano-Torino HSL costed 7.8 billions euro and has 8 train pairs daily...


Give it some time! To-Mi LAV saved 28 min in travel time! And was built, already, with the hi-speed line Torino-Lyon (France) in mind! Now they need to complete the "T" and finish the Milano-Venezia line, and maybe consider upgrading the modernization project of Napoli-Reggio Calabria line (just improved tracks with some new alignments up to 240km/h to full new high-speed standards and right-of-way, in anticipation of Messina STraight Bridge.

Both would likely cost € 15-22 billion.


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## Coccodrillo

Milan-Turin HSL should have been build with more intelligence. There are now two interdemiate interconnections between the new and the old line, but the one near Novara is useless because it doesn't lead to Novara station. If it was built correctly (and maybe with the lien energised at 3 kV DC) the new line could have been used also by intercity trains freeing slots for suburbans. Because of the usefullness of the Novara interconnection also the one near Vercelli is unused.


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## Satrapo

*fuckin attention ******



Coccodrillo said:


> Milan-Turin HSL should have been build with more intelligence.


 Are you an engineer?


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Milan-Turin HSL should have been build with more intelligence. There are now two interdemiate interconnections between the new and the old line, but the one near Novara is useless because it doesn't lead to Novara station. If it was built correctly (and maybe with the lien energised at 3 kV DC) the new line could have been used also by intercity trains freeing slots for suburbans. Because of the usefullness of the Novara interconnection also the one near Vercelli is unused.


But then you might get a situation that Trenitalia tries to avoid at all cost: "less than maximum speed" trains clogging HSL. It's a strategic decision from Trenitalia not to let its high-speed network to be "contaminated" by lower speed trains. In case of Diretissima, constructed 20-30 years ago, when the new track of HSL became operational they had to take out of it a lot of trains so HST (Freacciarossa) would not be slowed down by the presence of inferior rolling stock using the line. This resulted on significant degradation of service of non-HS services in the route, but pushed passengers into more expensive and lucrative HS services.

If Intercity trains are cut, people will not shift to suburban services, but to high-speed ones, that costs 60% more. Then, Trenitalia can build a new Novara AV station... like Valence TGV in France, for instance.


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## Coccodrillo

Satrapo said:


> Are you an engineer?


Actually not but I studied transport engineering a few years before changing ideas, so I know what I'm speaking about.



Suburbanist said:


> ..."less than maximum speed" trains clogging HSL.


It has to be seen. If there aren't a lot of high speed trains then a slower (but still 200 km/h) train could be have its place. But certainly an IC train leaving Milano just after an HST would arrive in Novara before the next HST (hardly less than 15 minutes before the first one, consider that today the smallest difference between two HST is around 40 minutes, the biggest around 5 hours).



Suburbanist said:


> In case of Diretissima, constructed 20-30 years ago, when the new track of HSL became operational they had to take out of it a lot of trains so HST (Freacciarossa) would not be slowed down by the presence of inferior rolling stock using the line.


This happened also because RFI decided to remove some passing tracks on the Direttissima, so that faster trains can no more overtake slower ones.



Suburbanist said:


> This resulted on significant degradation of service of non-HS services in the route...


Today Trenitalia seems to love only HSL trains, even if that cause indirectly losses to both HS and short distance trains (if there were direct trains Varese-Milano Centrale, these would feed the Milano-Bologna-Florence-Rome trains, for instance, now for Bologna a car is faster and for Rome the airplane).



Suburbanist said:


> ...but pushed passengers into more expensive and lucrative HS services.


Only part of them. Some switched to the car, as Trenitalia fail to understand that there is life outside Turin, Milan, Bologna, Florence and Rome.



Suburbanist said:


> If Intercity trains are cut, people will not shift to suburban services, but to high-speed ones, that costs 60% more.


No this will not happen (on a big scale) because there are pople living between the two extremes and the average salary in Italy is not really high.



Suburbanist said:


> Then, Trenitalia can build a new Novara AV station... like Valence TGV in France, for instance.


It will not be interesting for local traffic like Milan-Novara as a new Novara AV station would be relatively far from the city center and Trenitalia would certainly make short trips extremely expensive (has it does between Florence and Bologna for instance).


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## Satrapo

Coccodrillo said:


> Actually not but I studied transport engineering a few years before changing ideas, so I know what I'm speaking about.


you really believe that high-speed lines are useless?
You know that road transport will have to be replaced with sustainable transport systems?
you know something about the future of European transport?
Are you able to understand why other countries are spending billions to overcome many obstacles of all kinds just to build their future rail lines?


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## Coccodrillo

> You really believe that high-speed lines are useless?


No I don't. I haven't said that. I have said that a particular line (Milano-Torino HSL) built in a particular way had untill now a disastrous value for money. Other built or planned lines were needed though, like the Milano-Bologna-Firenze or the Brenner Base Tunnel.



> You know that road transport will have to be replaced with sustainable transport systems?


I travel nearly always by train, bus or walking, using the car really few times. Also I don't usually use airplanes, going by train instead.



> You know something about the future of European transport?


No I don't. Nobody knows. But there are ways to make predictions, or to make cost-benefit analisys. Sometimes they may be wrong, and not count indirect effects, ok, but it's difficult to say that nearly 8 billions for 125 km of new line in flat terrain used by 16 trains per day are a good investment. Things will change in the future? I hope so. But who knows? But certainly, today, this hasn't been a good example.



> Are you able to understand why other countries are spending billions to overcome many obstacles of all kinds just to build their future rail lines?


France invested 4 billions for the 200 km long LGV Est, which has 120 trains a day.

Italy invested 8 billions for the 125 km long MI-TO, which has 16 trains a day.

There are some differences in that...

On the other hand the Milano-Bologna HSL freed space on the old line, and the new Bologna-Firenze HSL doubled what was the only high capacity link between northern and southern Italy, so they are ok (even if with the latter there were some sensible ambiental problems, but that's another matter) (for instance, all but two railways (plus the HSL) between the Northern-Adriatic and the Southern-Tyrrenian side of Italy are single track).


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## Satrapo

Coccodrillo said:


> No I don't. I haven't said that. I have said that a particular line (Milano-Torino HSL) built in a particular way had untill now a disastrous value for money.





Coccodrillo said:


> France invested 4 billions for the 200 km long LGV Est, which has 120 trains a day.
> 
> Italy invested 8 billions for the 125 km long MI-TO, which has 16 trains a day.
> 
> There are some differences in that...


I think you have to wait another few years before giving such harsh judgments on the TAV Milano-Torino, i think that it is unfair to judge project built a few years ago, it's wrong to make a comparison with lines of other countries that have a network built 25-30 years before most of the Italian HST lines 
I'm sure that the experiences accumulated over the years by other countries makes it impossible for a fair comparison, I also think that it is wrong to equate a rail service (eg. trenitalia S.P.A) that is facing tough competition without any help of the state against a railroad company (NTV)whose largest shareholder is a French state railways company (SNCF a completly state owned company that has not European budget constraints)with other Service...


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## joseph1951

Coccodrillo said:


> 1
> Milan-Turin HSL should have been build with more intelligence.
> 2-
> There are now two interdemiate interconnections between the new and the old line, but the one near Novara is useless because it doesn't lead to Novara station.
> 3-
> If it was built correctly (and maybe with the lien energised at 3 kV DC) the new line could have been used also by intercity trains freeing slots for suburbans.
> 4-
> Because of the usefullness of the Novara interconnection also the one near Vercelli is unused.


1-2-3-4
Yes! Even Mr. Moretti said on TV that he would have built it differently.


----------



## joseph1951

Coccodrillo said:


> No I don't. I haven't said that. I have said that a particular line (Milano-Torino HSL) *built in a particular way had untill now a disastrous value for money. Other built or planned lines were needed though, like the Milano-Bologna-Firenze or the Brenner Base Tunnel.*
> I travel nearly always by train, bus or walking, using the car really few times. Also I don't usually use airplanes, going by train instead.
> 
> 
> 
> No I don't. Nobody knows. But there are ways to make predictions, or to make cost-benefit analisys. Sometimes they may be wrong, and not count indirect effects,* ok, but it's difficult to say that nearly 8 billions for 125 km of new line in flat terrain used by 16 trains per day are a good investment*. Things will change in the future? I hope so. But who knows? But certainly, today, this hasn't been a good example.
> 
> 
> 1 -
> France invested *4 billions for the 200 km long LGV Est, which has 120 trains a day.*Italy invested 8 billions for the 125 km long MI-TO, which has 16 trains a day.
> 
> There are some differences in that...
> 
> On the other hand the Milano-Bologna HSL freed space on the old line, and the new Bologna-Firenze HSL doubled what was the only high capacity link between northern and southern Italy, so they are ok (even if with the latter there were some sensible ambiental problems, but that's another matter) (for instance, all but two railways (plus the HSL) between the Northern-Adriatic and the Southern-Tyrrenian side of Italy are single track).


1-
Perhaps you were in a rush because you made a little error , probably a typo. ..

The first section of the LGV Est cost 4 billion euro but it is *300 km long. * (and from Gare de, l'Est to Ardenne-Champagne the TGV runs at an average speed of about 279 km/h, while the fastest HST running on the Milan -Turin HSL average 150 km/h)...


----------



## joseph1951

K_ said:


> The line hasn't been open long yet. Just give it a bit of time. And it will be interesting what will happen once Italo starts running on this route.
> 
> 
> 
> If this is excessive the line should never have been build. If you really want to make an expensive piece of infrastructure make sense you should run a lot more trains. SNCF runs trains every 3 minutes on some of its lines.


The 250km/h DD Rome Florence was completed in the early 90s. The Milan- Bologna 2 years ago and the Bologna-Florence has been in revenue for a year , and the HSL Rome Naples has been in service for several years now. So one can say that the HST Milan-Rome ( and Naples) has has been in service for sometime. 

The other fairly useless and astronomically expensive HST line is the Rome-Naples. 
On the new HSL Rome-Naples the fastest journey time is 70 minutes (for 204 km ) using 300km/h HSTs while in the 70- -80' on the old fast line Rome -Naples via Formia the journey time used to be about 90 minutes, with conventional train running at top speed of 160-180 km/h. The Old fast line Rome-Naples via Formia could have been easily and cheaply upgraded to 220 km/h, with doubling some section allowing 250 km/h.

The fastest jouney time on the new 250 km/h Naples -Salerno will be 29 minutes . The line is 50 km long.

On the soon to be built new High Speed Station of Napoli-Afragola, there will be a speed restriction of 70 km/h, for non stopping high speed trains.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Satrapo said:


> I think you have to wait another few years before giving such harsh judgments on the TAV Milano-Torino, i think that it is unfair to judge project built a few years ago...


Things may change in the future, I hope so, but I don't see this happening early because as I said the new HSL cannot be used by trains other than no-stop HS. Beside that an interconnection that does not allow to enter Novara FS station is still a waste of money. All other lines have quite useless interconnection. Ok, they may be used in the future, but until now and for the foreseable future they are just useless.



Satrapo said:


> ...it's wrong to make a comparison with lines of other countries that have a network built 25-30 years before most of the Italian HST lines


The LGV Est had 120 trains per day from the beginning, not 30 years after.



Satrapo said:


> ...against a railroad company (NTV)whose largest shareholder is a French state railways company (SNCF a completly state owned company that has not European budget constraints)with other Service...


SNCF only owns 20% of NTV.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Give it some time! To-Mi LAV saved 28 min in travel time! And was built, already, with the hi-speed line Torino-Lyon (France) in mind!


The current high speed trains Lyon - Milano don't even use the LAV...


----------



## Coccodrillo

Because SNCF and Trenitalia decided that it is too expensive to equip the TGV with the ETCS...

(by the way the line is Paris-Milano: there haven't been Lyon-Turin-Milan trains for years)


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## Satrapo

http://tentea.ec.europa.eu/en/ten-t_projects/30_priority_projects/
The Priority Projects were chosen both according to their European added-value and their contribution to the sustainable development of transport. Their completion - planned for 2020 - will improve the economic efficiency of the European transport system and provide direct benefits for European citizens.



Of these 30 key projects, 18 are railway projects, 3 are mixed rail-road projects, 2 are inland waterway transport projects and one refers to Motorways of the Sea. This choice reflects a high priority to more environmentally friendly transport modes, contributing to the fight against climate change.



Some of the Priority Projects are very large-scale and have already been completed.


Important sections of the remaining 27 Projects have also been completed in the past years, with many more to follow (nearly one third of all the necessary investments have already been made). The completion of these projects provides a concrete illustration of the potential benefits of the TEN-T.



There has been a firm commitment on behalf of the Member States and European Community Institutions to deliver these key Priority Projects and they have been at the centre of Community efforts - both financially and in terms of coordination. The European Commission has in particular designated a group of ten eminent European Coordinators to evaluate the progress of certain TEN-T Priority Projects, to make recommendations for the effective implementation of these projects and to play a major role in advancing the works.

Railway axis Berlin-Verona/Milano-Bologna-Napoli-Messina-Palermo








The railway axis Berlin-Verona/Milan-Bologna-Naples-Messina-Palermo is an important high capacity northsouthrail axis crossing the Alps along the BrennerCorridor. Traversing Germany, Austria and Italy, theaxis will link up their important urban areas and deliver an important increase intransport capacity. This will allow a modal shift from road to rail in the sensitive mountainous regions it crosses. 



The core of the Berlin-Palermo rail axis is constituted by the Brenner Corridor section. Located between Munich-Innsbruck-Bolzano-Trento-Verona, this section comprises the 55 km long cross-border Brenner Base Tunnel (BBT), which starts at Fortezza and joins up with the existing Innsbruck bypass - thus creating a 62.5 km long underground tunnel link, and the northern and southern access routes. Studies have been undertaken to prepare the construction of this central section. The 41 km Lower Inn Valley route between Kundl and Baumkirchen, which is part of the northern access to the Brenner Base Tunnel, is expected to become operational by 2012. Currently, 95% of the civil engineering works have been completed.



Mr Pat Cox, nominated in June 2010, carries on the progress made by his predecessor, the late Mr Karek van Miert.
http://tentea.ec.europa.eu/en/ten-t...cts/priority_project_1/priority_project_1.htm


----------



## Satrapo

Coccodrillo said:


> Things may change in the future, I hope so, but I don't see this happening early because as I said the new HSL cannot be used by trains other than no-stop HS. Beside that an interconnection that does not allow to enter Novara FS station is still a waste of money. All other lines have quite useless interconnection. Ok, they may be used in the future, but until now and for the foreseable future they are just useless.


 :nuts:









Coccodrillo said:


> SNCF only owns 20% of NTV.


 20% o 100% non cambia niente...


----------



## Satrapo

joseph1951 said:


> The 250km/h DD Rome Florence was completed in the early 90s. The Milan- Bologna 2 years ago and the Bologna-Florence has been in revenue for a year , and the HSL Rome Naples has been in service for several years now. So one can say that the HST Milan-Rome ( and Naples) has has been in service for sometime.
> 
> The other fairly useless and astronomically expensive HST line is the Rome-Naples.
> On the new HSL Rome-Naples the fastest journey time is 70 minutes (for 204 km ) using 300km/h HSTs while in the 70- -80' on the old fast line Rome -Naples via Formia the journey time used to be about 90 minutes, with conventional train running at top speed of 160-180 km/h. The Old fast line Rome-Naples via Formia could have been easily and cheaply upgraded to 220 km/h, with doubling some section allowing 250 km/h.
> 
> The fastest jouney time on the new 250 km/h Naples -Salerno will be 29 minutes . The line is 50 km long.
> 
> On the soon to be built new High Speed Station of Napoli-Afragola, there will be a speed restriction of 70 km/h, for non stopping high speed trains.


Why don't you stop trolling and do something useful with your time?


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## Suburbanist

Satrapo said:


> :nuts:
> 
> 20% o 100% non cambia niente...


20 or 100% changes A LOT under any management, strategic or financial perspective lol


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## Coccodrillo

Satrapo (referring to Joseph) said:


> Why don't you stop trolling and do something useful with your time?


Mr Marie-Joseph-Paul, I presume?


----------



## coccorico

Coccodrillo said:


> Mr Marie-Joseph-Paul, I presume?


Mr or Miss Joseph1951 aka Marie-Joseph-Paul aka coccodrillo aka Suburbanist, I presume?


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## gramercy

i think the AGVs will help a lot with regards to the timetable (acceleration)


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## coccorico

http://www.zefiro.bombardier.com/desktop/en/home/







Zefiro, What else?:lol:


----------



## coccorico

*Zefiro 380*
Entered service 2012[3] 
Formation 8 or 16 car[7] 
Capacity 664 seats (max) 8 car[7]
1,336 seats (max) 16 car[7] 
Specifications 
Car body construction Aluminium carbody, wide profile[7] 
Train length 215 m (8 car) 415 m (16 car)[7] 
Width 3.4 m[citation needed] 
Maximum speed 380 km/h[7] 
Weight 934 t[7] 
Acceleration > 0.48 m/s²[7] 
Power output 20 MW (16 car @380 km/h)[7]
10 MW (8 car @380 km/h)[17] 
Bogies "FLEXX speed" with 2.7 m wheelbase[7] 
Multiple working Possible for two 8-car trainsets, not possible for 16-car trainset[7] 

In September 2009, Bombardier announced an order for 80 Zefiro 380 very high speed trains by the Chinese Ministry of Railways (MOR) to be produced at Bombardier's joint venture Sifang (Qingdao) Transportation Ltd. The order of twenty 16 car sets and sixty 8 car sets was estimated to be worth 27.4 billion RMB (approx 2.7€ billion or $4 billion). The value of Bombardier's share is estimated at 1.3€ billion. [18][19]

Under China railways use these trains have been given designations CRH1C (8 car set) and CRH1D (16 car set).[12] and laterly been given designations CRH380C (8 car set) & CRH380C-L (16 car set).

A 16 car set has ~20 MW power, with 50% bogies (FLEXX type with 2.7 m wheelbase) motorized, a starting acceleration of >0.48 m·s−2, with a weight of 948 t, and an axle load of ~17 t.[7] Two 8 car sets can work in multiple.[7]


*Zefiro V300*
*A variant the V300 Zefiro was offered by Bombardier in association with AnsaldoBreda to Trenitalia as part of a bid for 50 new high speed trainsets in 2010.[14] Trenitalia selected this bid as the winner on 5 August 2010.[15] These will enter service in 2013 and will be designated ETR1000.[16]*

Zefiro 300 
Formation up to 16car[7] 
Capacity 600 seats (8 car)[7]
1,200 seats (16 car)[7] 
Specifications 
Car body construction Aluminium carbody, UIC profile[7] 
Train length 202 m (8 car train), 402 m (16 car train)[7] 
Width 2.9 m[citation needed] 
Maximum speed 300 to 360 km/h[7] 
Acceleration > 0.6 m/s²[7] 
Power output 8.8 MW (8 car train @300 km/h)[7] 
Bogies "FLEXX speed", 2.85 m wheelbase[7] 
Multiple working Possible for two 8-car trainsets, not possible for 16-car trainset[7] 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Zefiro


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## makita09

coccorico said:


> Mr or Miss Joseph1951 aka Marie-Joseph-Paul aka coccodrillo aka Suburbanist, I presume?


Recently banned Satrapo I presume? And no, the forumers above are not the same person.


----------



## Gitanes

coccorico said:


> http://www.zefiro.bombardier.com/desktop/en/home/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zefiro, What else?:lol:


:eek2:
:dance:


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## Coccodrillo

makita09 said:


> Recently banned Satrapo I presume? And no, the forumers above are not the same person.


Marie Joseph Paul, Satrapo and coccorico were certainly the same person.

PS please, don't compare me to a car-dependent person like Suburbanist


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## Eddard Stark

Soon there will be NTV trains on the Turin-Milan, moreover construction (very heavy construction) is still ongoing and do not allow very fast connections yet.

The line will be used in the future quite heavily I am sure, the fact that it is not used perfectly now for several reasons does not mean that it was useless. It's an infrastructure for the next century, not the first 2 years of service.

Beside that one ALL OTHER HSL are used quite heavily, with dozens trains per day on each direction. I really do not understand Coccodrillo comment. How many TGV run on the LYON-Marseille route? surely is not more than Milan-Bologna, Bologna-Firenze, Firenze-Roma and Roma-Napoli (all other HSL in Italy)


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## Coccodrillo

Eddard Stark said:


> How many TGV run on the LYON-Marseille route?


Paris-Lyon: 240 (between Paris and the branch to Dijon, but it's 30 years old)
Lyon-Marseille: 140 (between Lyon and Valence)
Bologna-Florence: 70 (but not so bad for being a new line, comparable to the Paris-Lyon just after the opening)
Milan-Bologna: less than 70


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## Eddard Stark

Coccodrillo said:


> Paris-Lyon: 240 (between Paris and the branch to Dijon, but it's 30 years old)
> Lyon-Marseille: 140 (between Lyon and Valence)
> Bologna-Florence: 70 (but not so bad for being a new line, comparable to the Paris-Lyon just after the opening)
> Milan-Bologna: less than 70


In Bologna-Florence line there are more than 70, I guess you did not include the trains to Verona and Venezia and the no-stop trains between Milan and Rome. I counted 70 trains that stop, plus there shall be other 50 at least that do not. Total at least *120*

Milan-Bologna: exactly 70 trains a day

I tried to countr these 140 trains between Lyon and Marseille. Where is your source? there are more or less 1 train/h between paris and marseille and much less between lyon and marseille

All our figures of course are going to increase after NTV arrives, there shall be an increase of 50% on all major routes.


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## Coccodrillo

I'm sorry, I have forgotten to count the no-stop trains (I checked the timetable Bologna-Florence, that includes trains from Verona and Venice). With these we have around 100 trains, which is good.

My source for France is http://membres.multimania.fr/cartesferro/index_fr.html


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## Eddard Stark

Coccodrillo said:


> I'm sorry, I have forgotten to count the no-stop trains (I checked the timetable Bologna-Florence, that includes trains from Verona and Venice). With these we have around 100 trains, which is good.
> 
> My source for France is http://membres.multimania.fr/cartesferro/index_fr.html


if I am not wrong there are also some trains between florence and rome which go to Venice/Verona and do not stop in Florence

The total shall be close to 120 as I said

I counted trains on the SNCF website, it is always hard considering all possible option but honestly I cannot see how they can be more than 70-100 on the Marseille-Lyon line


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## Coccodrillo

What trains have you searched for on SNCF website? Also the ones not terminating in Paris?


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## mozatellac

Eddard Stark said:


> if I am not wrong there are also some trains between florence and rome which go to Venice/Verona and do not stop in Florence
> 
> The total shall be close to 120 as I said
> 
> I counted trains on the SNCF website, it is always hard considering all possible option but honestly I cannot see how they can be more than 70-100 on the Marseille-Lyon line


From sbb.ch for Dec. 2 2010, I count (approximately, I may have miscounted duplicates):

From Marseilles: 17 trains to Paris, 20 to Lyon (and then towards Lille, Rennes, Nantes...), 1 to Lille/Bruxelles not calling at Lyon.

From Toulon: 5 trains for Paris not calling at Marseilles

From Montpellier: 13 trains to Paris, 12 to Lyon

So Northbound only, that's 68 trains daily. In both directions, that's between 130 and 140 trains running every weekday on the line (not counting the 2 Marseilles <-> Montpellier trains and the few Paris <-> Valence-ville which run on small portions of the LGV).

Anyway, regarding Milano - Torino, what are the ongoing works and the expected improvements in terms of travel time?


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## Coccodrillo

mozatellac said:


> Anyway, regarding Milano - Torino, what are the ongoing works and the expected improvements in terms of travel time?


The completion of Turin's urban tunnel may save a few minutes. Other than that there are no planned works.


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## Eddard Stark

Coccodrillo said:


> The completion of Turin's urban tunnel may save a few minutes. Other than that there are no planned works.


it shall in reality save 10 minutes, due to the cut of the current fairly large travelling time within Turin area.

It shall become at the end 40 minutes between the new station of Porta Susa and Milano Centrale.

Currently there are only two tracks from Porta Susa to the HSL which are shared with local and intercity trains


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## Eddard Stark

This is what Turin looks like now: 10 years ago there were 2 tracks only in the surface. Now a tunnel for 2 tracks has been built already and another is U/C now after the first has been completed. Construction is still humongously big as this is a work to basically join the two halfs of Turin historically separated by the railway



Llanowar said:


> fatte oggi....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


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## Eddard Stark

This is what Porta Susa looks like now...the station in reality is already open but accesses and services are not optymal, this will be the real station

I think now you can have an idea why there are not so many HS trains between Milan and Turin yet



normy89 said:


> Ciao a tutti!!!
> 
> oggi sono riuscito ad andare in cantiere e ho fatto qualche foto. :banana:
> 
> L'impressione dell'avanzamento lavori è stata molto buona. Ragazzi, avremo una stazione STRAORDINARIA ! ! ! ! ! Stare sotto quella volta di vetro è stata un'emozione unica!!! Credo che chi si trovò sotto la volta di vetro di Porta Nuova nel 1868 abbia provato la mia stessa emozione.
> 
> Ecco qui alcune foto:


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## Eddard Stark

I think I understand what you mean: basically the italian HSR system is established inside the urban cores of the cities, all stations (or almost all) are the historical one interconnected with local, regional trains.

meanwhile here is the debut of "frecciarossa" on a american blockbuster...even thought frecciarossa doesn't go to Venice (frecciargento does) but well...who cares



Paxromana said:


> Debutto ufficiale di un Frecciarossa in un film di cassetta americano.
> Il trailer di "The tourist"


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## lupin22

http://oi55.tinypic.com/1y2ssj.jpg
http://www.emta.com/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=6


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## lupin22

Eddard Stark said:


> I think I understand what you mean: basically the italian HSR system is established inside the urban cores of the cities, all stations (or almost all) are the historical one interconnected with local, regional trains.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence–Rome_high-speed_railway


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## K_

lupin22 said:


> What exactly you don't understand?


Well, the problem is that what you write I can only interpret in two ways. Either you're wrong, or you have serious problems with the English language.

For instance you write this:



> Non, in the central rural areas the TGV only reaches certain points, and the urban penetration is achieved using regional trains and buses (eg. TER and regional services).


This I can try to parse as: "In rural areas the TGV only stops at certain stations outside of urban areas, which are reached by regional trains and buses.
I have the impression that you are referring to stations like Avignon TGV or TGV Haute Picardie. 
If so, than your statement is factually incorrect, as these stations are not in the least bit integrated in the regional train network. Even in cases where regional trains and TGVs do stop in the same station, like Valence TGV, there is little coordination of schedules. 

and this:


> The TGV using conventional lines only when the HSL is connected to specific urban nodes (built in a large metropolitan area)."


So you are saying here that conventional lines are only used to reach terminals in urban areas. What about the recently reopened Haute Bugey line?
What about the TGV Atlantique services which spend more time off than on an LGV?


----------



## Atlante

Eddard Stark said:


> I think I understand what you mean: basically the italian HSR system is established inside the urban cores of the cities, all stations (or almost all) are the historical one interconnected with local, regional trains.
> 
> meanwhile here is the debut of "frecciarossa" on a american blockbuster...even thought frecciarossa doesn't go to Venice (frecciargento does) but well...who cares


Good debut... Congrats to the most beautiful trains in the world!:cheers:


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## lupin22

K_ said:


> Well, the problem is that what you write I can only interpret in two ways. Either you're wrong, or you have serious problems with the English language.


-I am sorry about my poor English I want to improve my english in writing letters or something else... 



> I have the impression that you are referring to stations like Avignon TGV or TGV Haute Picardie.
> If so, than your statement is factually incorrect, as these stations are not in the least bit integrated in the regional train network. Even in cases where regional trains and TGVs do stop in the same station, like Valence TGV, there is little coordination of schedules.


-








http://oi52.tinypic.com/308is1s.jpg
*Le Mans is very important, TGV Le Mans - Rennes direction to Brest(project) and Le Mans - Nantes 


- In France, the extension of High Speed Rail network has come with the creation of *new stations *(TGV stations) and a *diversification of territorial configurations* in which the stations fit. If the reduction in travel time allowed by high speed train increases mobility and contributes to the economic development of *metropolitan areas*, the implications of these stations on local mobility and territorial development depend on the station’s location, in the midsized cities like Avignon (turistic area, strategic point), Le Mans (sport and turism, strategic point), Reims (turistic area, strategic point) the spatial organization is changed. The impact of HST on local mobility and territorial development differed depending on whether the metropolitan area (Lyon, Lille, Marseille, Paris etc.) is served by a central station, a peripheral one or if it is connected to the high speed rail network by both stations.
- Paris is the main "hub" in the HSR network

Italy








http://oi55.tinypic.com/1y2ssj.jpg

http://www.emta.com/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=6

France: coming soon


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## solchante

thanks for the map :cheers:


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## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> if I am not wrong there are also some trains between florence and rome which go to Venice/Verona and do not stop in Florence
> 
> The total shall be close to 120 as I said
> *
> I counted trains on the SNCF website, it is always hard considering all possible option but honestly I cannot see how they can be more than 70-100 on the Marseille-Lyon line*


Have you taken in due consideration the very fact that in France, on the Paris- Marseille HSL, SNCF runs several Duplex trains a day in double compositions? These double Duplex trains are capable of carrying about 1100 passengers,while a 10 carriage ETr500 can carry about 500-550 passengers....

Hence the *70-100 *trains you conunted on the Paris -Marseille might well have the capacity of *150-220* ETR500....... 

Only MM is "capable" of running 72 HSTs trains a day from Milan to Rome in order to "steal" to the aeroplane. just 3,000 passenger a day.......that is 41.6 passenger per train/ per day "stolen" from the Milan-Rome shuttle.

Marvellous achievement.....


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## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> .........
> 1-
> *meanwhile here is the debut of "frecciarossa" on a american blockbuster...even thought frecciarossa doesn't go to Venice (frecciargento does) but well...who cares*


1-
How much did TI pay in order to have sequences of ETR500 runs shown on this serial?
Have you also noticed that in the film there are scenes in which the usual posh Venetian hotel appears?


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## lupin22

^^:lol:


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## Eddard Stark

joseph1951 said:


> 1-
> How much did TI pay in order to have sequences of ETR500 runs shown on this serial?
> Have you also noticed that in the film there are scenes in which the usual posh Venetian hotel appears?


much more likely the studio had to pay TI to use the train for filming


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Anyway 'hidden' advertisings are generally used in these movies.

Did Trenitalia pay the production? maybe... or maybe the contrary
It's not that important and I don't see anything wrong with it


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## Eddard Stark

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Anyway 'hidden' advertisings are generally used in these movies.
> 
> Did Trenitalia pay the production? maybe... or maybe the contrary
> It's not that important and I don't see anything wrong with it


it's called product placement...but the cost of it I think on a international blockbuster is beyond the budget of a local company

Anyway either way there's nothing bad.


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## Palatinus

Where's the future HSR Milan - Genoa on the map?


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## Eddard Stark

Palatinus said:


> Where's the future HSR Milan - Genoa on the map?


tha map has several mistakes in it. Anyway the line is not Milan-Genoa but the so called terzo valico (or third gateway) a tunnel ( or better, a series of tunnels) between Genoa and the plain of Po that will be used for passengers but mainly for freight. This will be about 50 km long and construction shall (if god wills) start early next year even thought only about 10% of the total cost has been covered with financing from the state.


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## lupin22

Palatinus said:


> Where's the future HSR Milan - Genoa on the map?


The map shows the "priority projects" with EU countries


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## lupin22

Eddard Stark said:


> tha map has several mistakes in it.


So, why don't you make a map too? :cheers:


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## Coccodrillo

Eddard Stark said:


> tha map has several mistakes in it. Anyway the line is not Milan-Genoa but the so called terzo valico (or third gateway) a tunnel ( or better, a series of tunnels) between Genoa and the plain of Po that will be used for passengers but mainly for freight. This will be about 50 km long and construction shall (if god wills) start early next year even thought only about 10% of the total cost has been covered with financing from the state.


Just to say that "valico" in this case is better translatedas "pass" or "tunnel", that is, a road or railway that cros a mountain range  (in this case, it will the third railway crossing the mountain in the same point)

(the longest tunnel there would be around 27-30 km)


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## Palatinus

Genoa - (Novara) Milan is part of Genoa - Rotterdam...


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## lupin22

Palatinus said:


> Genoa - (Novara) Milan is part of Genoa - Rotterdam...


C02









C04 









http://www.railneteurope.com


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## Eddard Stark

Coccodrillo said:


> Bologna-Firenze should be considered regional or long distance traffic?


It's not a geographical definition, depends on the service. HSR Firenze-Bologna surely isn't, nor a IC which stops in Bologna and Firenze. A train starting in Florence and ending in Bologna and stopping in all or most stations in between is.

Anyway keeping or not such a connection with contract-based services rather thank market-based would be decided by the regions involved (E-R and Tuscany) and if they have money and reasons to pay for this service why not?

In my opinion long distance trains shall be left to market developments and regional, local and inter-regional trains to contract-based agreeements between the involved PA and the company (or companies) providing the service


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## Coccodrillo

^^ I don't agree, rail transport is a system, not a bunch of train. What works for airplanes doesn't works with trains, or doesn't work well.


----------



## joseph1951

Eddard Stark said:


> Depends...for local services probably it makes sense, for long distance less I believe.
> 
> The point is that it would be perfectly doable to the following
> 
> 1) Separate as in the UK the ownership of the network (RFI) from the services (Trenitalia and possibly two companies: Trenitalia local and Trenitalia AV)
> 
> 2) Liberalize access to the network to private operators, through market systems for HSR and long distance services, through contracts (regional-based) for local transport
> 
> 3) AFTER the liberalization privatize the Trenitalia AV and possibly even Trenitalia local companies, which will compete with other private and international competitors for the market of long distance travel and for the contracts of local transport
> 
> I think in the medium-long term we will reach this situation thanks to european liberalizations, provided the French do not derail all


The UK earlier privatization was not a great succes. To quote the late Earl of Stockton, Sir Harold McMillan " it was the sale of the family silver"*.

To privatize TI , at what price.? TI's enormous debts were paid by the taxpayers. TI's assetts too were paid by taxpayers. 

For over 20 years of the ongoing Italian HSLs + HST Trains + Grandi Stazioni Spa saga, etc., the taxpayers have already footed a 100 billion euro bill.

At what price is the Italian State going to sell TI? AT what price is the Italian State going to sell the Grandi Stazioni SpA?...

As you might rememeber, BR was sold for peanuts and the big boys made billions of profit by selling BR assetts bit by bit (assett stripping).

I do not understand this new Italian pseudo-ideology, i.e: with the taxpayer's monies the State should build the infrastructure, which later will be handed over to private corporations, as in the case of the Italian motorways.

Why is the Italian state is uncapable of hiring staff to collect the motorway tolls? 

Furthermore in UK, after the thatcheromics storm, private companies are building their own infrastructures, at their own cost, as in the case of the Dartford Bridge (or Elizabeth II Bridge) which is on the River Thames. 

This should be taken as an examples for the Bridge on the Straight of Messina which will be built with state monies (?) handed over to private companies ..

I am quite skeptical of this thatcheromics** revisited, served to the public in sauce italienne. 

**Thatheromics = Thatcher economics /Thatcherite economics.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth_II_Bridge


Sir Harold Macmillan:

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&&sa=...+harold+Macmillan&spell=1&fp=42df9320e81e9757


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/2795226/Its-Labours-turn-to-sell-the-family-silver.html

===================================================

an exttract from the article:

It's Labour's turn to sell the family silver
12:01AM BST 24 Aug 2008 26 Comments 
*Gerry Grimstone masterminded Margaret Thatcher's privatisations. Now he's been invited by the Treasury to identify new assets to swell its depleted coffers. Ben Harrington reports *
_One cold night in November 1985, Harold Macmillan, the former prime minister, rose to his feet in a smoky gentlemen's club in St James to address the members of the Tory Reform Group. Despite being 91 years old and just a year from his death, that night the elderly statesman delivered one of his most famous speeches._His subject was Margaret Thatcher's radical policy of privatisation. In previous months, parts of Britain's steel industry and railway network, and infrastructure from British Gas to the National Bus Company, had been sold off in one of the biggest national sales in memory. *Macmillan disapproved, sniffing that selling assets smacked of the sort of desperation seen in individuals or states with serious financial problems.*

"*First of all the Georgian silver goes. And then all that nice furniture that used to be in the salon. Then the Canalettos go." Referring to the sale of British Telecom and British Gas, Macmillan said: "They were like two Rembrandts still left*."

The speech caused such a stir that Macmillan tried to dampen his comments with a clarification in the House of Lords. But to no avail; his "*selling the family silver*" speech stuck.
....


----------



## joseph1951

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ I don't agree, rail transport is a system, not a bunch of train. What works for airplanes doesn't works with trains, or doesn't work well.


^^


----------



## hans280

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ I don't agree, rail transport is a system, not a bunch of train. What works for airplanes doesn't works with trains, or doesn't work well.


IMO the irony is that "what works for airplanes" probably WOULD work in a network like the one we have in France. - Yeah, the French are famous for their opposition to competition in public services, but the French point-to-point concept where all other concerns are sacrificed on the altar of getting as fast to and from Paris as possible lends itself beautifully to third-party providers. Why shouldn't, say, DB, RENFE or some small private company run a few trains per day between Lyon and Paris? 

The problems arise in more elaborate networks where many or most passengers have to change trains. Yours faithfully recently found himself stuck with an expensive first-class ticket (seat reserved 2 months in advance) from London to Edinburg - with all trains out of Kings Cross cancelled for five hours. The railway operators - from the kindness of their hearts - were willing to offer me a replacement ticket from Euston to Carlisle. But, "we cannot guarantee you a seat, Sir, and it will be second class". I remonstrated vigorously, but was nosed off: "Sir, please. This is another company". hno:


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ I partly agree with you.

The English system is a bit different, routes are assigned by the government and there are common fares, but companies have a certain freedom.


----------



## Eddard Stark

hans280 said:


> IMO the irony is that "what works for airplanes" probably WOULD work in a network like the one we have in France. - Yeah, the French are famous for their opposition to competition in public services, but the French point-to-point concept where all other concerns are sacrificed on the altar of getting as fast to and from Paris as possible lends itself beautifully to third-party providers. Why shouldn't, say, DB, RENFE or some small private company run a few trains per day between Lyon and Paris?
> 
> The problems arise in more elaborate networks where many or most passengers have to change trains. Yours faithfully recently found himself stuck with an expensive first-class ticket (seat reserved 2 months in advance) from London to Edinburg - with all trains out of Kings Cross cancelled for five hours. The railway operators - from the kindness of their hearts - were willing to offer me a replacement ticket from Euston to Carlisle. But, "we cannot guarantee you a seat, Sir, and it will be second class". I remonstrated vigorously, but was nosed off: "Sir, please. This is another company". hno:


Well, Italy will have competition on HSR services starting this year.


----------



## K_

joseph1951 said:


> The UK earlier privatization was not a great succes. To quote the late Earl of Stockton, Sir Harold McMillan " it was the sale of the family silver"*.


It wasn't however the failure some make of it. The UK is the first country in Europe where rail started gaining market share again, after decades of decline.


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## Coccodrillo

The ETR X 500, the very first prototype of this class, composed by only one locomotive and one coach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qr4ZYcWhso

It was followed by two other complete prototypes (ETR Y 500, trains Y1 and Y2) and by 30+30 trains.


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## kerouac1848

> It wasn't however the failure some make of it. The UK is the first country in Europe where rail started gaining market share again, after decades of decline.


True, but that has only really been the case since the start of last decade and around that time (2002) Network Rail became the major player in the industry owning and managing the track, signals, most stations and general infrastructure. NR is basically a state-owned corporation, accountable to the government (via a state regulatory body) and receives the vast bulk of its funds from them. In essence, the UK has a public-private system in its railways, which differs from the first 8 years or so of full privatisation. 

Anyway, factors beyond the political structure of the railways better explains passenger growth. There has been huge population growth in London and the SE over the past 15 years. London alone accounts for around a third of all journeys on the rail network (that ex. the tube), so the SE in total (London and bordering counties) probably make-up close to half. There has been no major road building in this region bar the M25 widening around Heathrow during that period, which contrasts with the entire post-war period up until early 90s. The last Tory gov. before this one still had a transport policy geared towards the car. At the same time companies moving out of cities to the suburbs has slowed/stopped, partly due to planning policies (e.g. the green belt). People have basically been pushed onto the rail as there are no alternatives.


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## kerouac1848

Just seen that post I replied to was from the beginning of Jan. Sorry.


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## panzani

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ Because there are still some serious transport engineers left in Italy, who don't like to destroy their Nation and waste public money giving power to some mad marketing ideologist.


I agree with you completely!


----------



## Railfan

*Haridas Mederos Ocando rende onore a Italo*










*Haridas non poteva certo rimanere indifferente al fascino di Italo… e per questo ha realizzato un accuratissimo modello virtuale del nostro bellissimo treno, per la gioia degli appassionati di software di simulazione di treni! Leggete la sua intervista e guardate questo video se avete dei dubbi! *










*A.V. La tua passione per il mondo ferroviario ci affascina. Raccontaci del modello che hai realizzato per Italo?*

H. M. O . "Sono rimasta molto colpita dalla presentazione “emozionale” del treno Italo realizzata da Alstom, il suo produttore, così ho deciso di farne una replica virtuale, realizzando un modello il più aderente possibile alla realtà; ho iniziato a raccogliere tutto il materiale informativo disponibile (foto, video ecc), e partendo da questo ho ricreato con strumenti CAD i vari elementi del treno, lavorandoli infine con software di foto per portare gli elementi grafici in alta risoluzione nel modello 3D. Il mio amico Manuel Mejias & Abraham Eduardo ha aggiunto poi elementi di animazione". 

*A. V. Quali elementi di Italo hanno catturato la tua attenzione? *

H. M. O. "Oltre al bellissimo design del treno e alle sue straordinarie caratteristiche tecnologiche, trovo molto stimolanti i servizi offerti: riproduzioni di film, musica e connessione internet".

*A. V. Cosa sai di NTV?*

H. M. O. "NTV è il primo operatore italiano privato che offre un servizio di alta velocità con i treni più veloci del mondo, gli Alstom AGV: una flotta di 25 treni chiamati Italo, che faranno tappa nelle principali città italiane". 

*A.V. Sei pronta a salire su di italo?*

H. M. O. "Certamente! Prima di tutto perché avrei l’occasione di vedere dal vero il treno di cui ho realizzato il modello virtuale, in modo da renderlo ancora più accurato. Ma oltre a questo, naturalmente mi piacerebbe fare un bel viaggio in prima classe, magari da Roma a Venezia, osservando dai finestrini la bellezza dei paesaggi italiani …"

Prima di lasciarvi e augurarvi buon fine settimana vorrei ricordarvi che presto sarà possibile scaricare il modello 3D del treno italo dal sito di Haridas

*Buon viaggio "virtuale" a tutti!

Altra Velocit*à


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## Coccodrillo

> osservando dai finestrini la bellezza dei paesaggi italiani


Se lo scordi, se avrà is edili messi come in molti TGV...



> looking the beautiful Italian landscape from the window


Forget it, if it will have the seats placed like many TGV...


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## panzani

Railfan said:


>


nice pic!


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## Railfan

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## GENIUS LOCI

Rome, Tiburtina Railways station



tool2106 said:


>





terminal said:


> foto delle ore 9:00





tool2106 said:


> Oggi dopo un mese esatto ci sono passato tornando dall'ufficio. L'effetto è spiazzante.
> 
> A tratti semplicemente magnifico, la trasparenza delle vetrate da lontano lascia intravedere oltre la galleria.
> 
> Per quanto riguarda l'intelaiatura che hanno montato davanti alla rampa del piazzale, è idendica a quella usata per la centrale energetica, infatti accanto sono in attesa di essere montati gli stessi identici pannelli. Credo quindi che sia qualcosa di temporanea.
> 
> Tutt'altra storia dal lato della piazza ipogea dove in 50 metri si alternato quattro cladding diversi: quello della centrale energetica, quello dell'ex edificio di servizio, quello del cubone e la vetrata della galleria.
> 
> Comunque ecco un pò di foto fatte con il cell. A presto !


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## Suburbanist

Very, very nice station. One the Italian high-speed network can be proud of! Modern, not just restored.

This project suffered immense resistance when first presented. It was considered out-of-priority, though the previous existing station was a very bad one, open to the street, with low-ceiling underpasses and plenty of beggars.

Now if only they built a brand new station in Firenze...


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## urban life_MI

Suburbanist said:


> Very, very nice station. One the Italian high-speed network can be proud of! Modern, not just restored.
> 
> This project suffered immense resistance when first presented. It was considered out-of-priority, though the previous existing station was a very bad one, open to the street, with low-ceiling underpasses and plenty of beggars.
> 
> Now if only they built a brand new station in Firenze...


merci...:lol:


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## Railfan




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## tool2106

This side of the building was officially opened to service on December 2010. As a matter of fact is was opened on the first very first days of 2011.



tool2106 said:


> E con questo è tutto, ora ci sposta sul thread della NCI (Tangenziale Est) con qualche scatto un pò avventuroso !


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## Eddard Stark

I like it a lot


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## joseph1951

tool2106 said:


> Some use to call those strange yellow volumes "Gondolas"


The "gondolas" sitting area sticking out of the main building are reminescent of 1960 modern home design..


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## tool2106

Some fresh pics straight from Rome Tiburtina High Speed Station



Ingegné said:


> This will be the sight while we will be approaching the station from Florence
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> While this will be the sight while we will be approaching the station from Naples
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## tool2106

Brand new platforms numbered 1east and 2east:



Ingegné said:


> ​


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## tool2106

Works in progress in Bologna



siv0968 said:


> Miracolo miracolo! Ho fatto un paio di foto! :banana:
> Stato dei lavori aggiornato al 4 ottobre 2011:


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## tool2106

On Octorber 20th massive floodings struck Rome as consequence of a severe thunderstorm hiting the town early in the morning.

Major damages reported in the subway lines and in most railway stations. Among those new high speed Tiburtina station, due to fully open to service on November 28th.

Most damages concern automatic escalators and elevators which electronics, as today, are considered unreapairable.

Here are some pics I shot yesterday morning.

The brand new eastern hall where worst damages were reported. Still you can see large puddles.


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## tool2106

In the western entrance where works are still in progress, hundreds of pounds of brand new materials, due to be used soon, have been trashed as they've become useless.


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## tool2106

But there are good news as well: Some _Despe_'s vehicles (Italy's leading business in demolitions ) have been parked right next to the last old station builduing left.


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## tool2106

Here's a panoramic view from the besiding bridge:


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## tool2106

Last Monday platforms 1 and 2 East were opened to service:


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## tool2106

The eastern hall from outside:


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## tool2106




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## tool2106




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## Woonsocket54

so are the other platforms at Rome Tiburtina HSR station still opening on 28 Nov 2011?


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## K_

tool2106 said:


> Last Monday platforms 1 and 2 East were opened


So Tiburtina is going to continue the Trenitalia tradition of confusing passengers by having several instances of the same platform number?


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## tool2106

^^ Exactly, and same complain we moved once the news was released.


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## tool2106

Woonsocket54 said:


> so are the other platforms at Rome Tiburtina HSR station still opening on 28 Nov 2011?


Honestly I wouldn't bet a single penny on that.


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## Coccodrillo

K_ said:


> So Tiburtina is going to continue the Trenitalia tradition of confusing passengers by having several instances of the same platform number?


Have you ever been in Bologna? It has three tracks numbered 1, 1 ovest (west) and 1 est (east). Well, more than 3 actually, at least until 3/3 ovest/3 est.

Or in Modena, where between track 6 and 7 there is another one without number (with platform, but it is not used by passenger trains).


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Or in Modena, where between track 6 and 7 there is another one without number (with platform, but it is not used by passenger trains).


If it is not used for passenger operations, why should it be numbered necessarily?

And what do you propose for stub platforms which twins interrupted by a building or long platforms used for 2 short train operations simultaneously?


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## I D1EGO I

in bologna:

7 east
4 west
11 central + 8 in construction (4 metropolitan service, 4 high speed)


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> If it is not used for passenger operations, why should it be numbered necessarily?


It is quite common to number all tracks, as the track numbers are not just for the convenience of the passengers. 



> And what do you propose for stub platforms which twins interrupted by a building or long platforms used for 2 short train operations simultaneously?


You just give each track its own unique number, regardless of whether it's a stub track or a through track. And long tracks you just divide up in sections, that you mark using letters.


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## Coccodrillo

In Germany or Switzerland tracks 1 east and 1 west would be numbered, say, 21 and 41; and so on.


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> It is quite common to number all tracks, as the track numbers are not just for the convenience of the passengers.


The tracks, the platforms or the tracks with adjacent platforms? I don't think it is common to name through tracks without any adjacent platform.


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## Mauz®

And why not Milano Rogoredo?

13 trucks numbered this way: "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 1 tronco, 2 tronco, 3 tronco, 4 tronco, 5 tronco".


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> I don't think it is common to name through tracks without any adjacent platform.


It is more common than you think. As far as I know it's common in Switzerland, in Germany and the Netherlands. The reason is to avoid ambiguity, so that for example "track 3" means the same thing to a signal giver, a train driver, a shunter etc...


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## K_

Mauz® said:


> And why not Milano Rogoredo?
> 
> 13 trucks numbered this way: "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 1 tronco, 2 tronco, 3 tronco, 4 tronco, 5 tronco".


What does "tronco" mean?


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## GENIUS LOCI

Literally it means 'cut off', but here means 'dead track'


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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> The tracks, the platforms or the tracks with adjacent platforms? I don't think it is common to name through tracks without any adjacent platform.


In Switzerland basically every section of track located between two switches has a number so to indicate clearly the position of a train, a problems, workers occupying a track, etc. Usually three digit numbers are used (except for tracks with platforms), following some rules. That's why in Bellinzona there is a track 809 used also for passenger trains (when it was numbered, it wasn't used by passengers).


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## K_

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Literally it means 'cut off', but here means 'dead track'


I notice there are not tracks 1 and 2, but that they probably were once there are intended to be installed in the future. What's the source of this diagram? I'm quite interested in railway schematics...

As to numbering: It probably would have been better to number the stub tracks 21-25 in stead... But after missing a train once in Italy this way I am now warned, and look out for such details...


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## Coccodrillo

The source is one of the documents that RFI makes available (but hidden) on its website, and shows the track plan during reconstruction works. Since then tracks 1 and 2 have been laid, among other things.


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## GENIUS LOCI

I didn't find an 'updated' scheme: this one was provided by fra74 in _milanotrasporti_ forum


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## tool2106

A few pics I shot yesterday. Still works in progress at Roma Tiburtina new high speed station.


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## Suburbanist

*Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori*

NTV is the most ambitious private open-access railway operation in Europe up to now. They are, finally, expected to start operating the first services in January or February. 

Slots have been reserved, like this, for the Venezia-Roma operations:










They will basically operate (Napoli)-Roma-Firenze-Bologna-Milano-(Torino) and Roma-Firenze-Bologna-Venezia services. But they still don't have enough trains, as Alstom is behind schedule delivering the revised AGV train sets (after their pre-commissioning with RFI).









This is how they look like (actual trains, without the internal and external finishing, which are supposed to be a "surprise")








.








.
Nola Depot








.

I treni Italo a Nola by Treno .Italo - NTV S.p.A., on Flickr
.

IL PRIMO TRENO: Lato treno by Treno .Italo - NTV S.p.A., on Flickr

On the Ferrovie On Line (an Italina forum about railways) I found what is apparently a schedule of trains at Napoli (times of departure, call or arrival at Napoli)


> 9914 Napoli-Milano P.G. partenza alle 6.00
> 9918/9920 Salerno-Napoli-Milano P.G. alle 7.00
> 9984 Napoli-Venezia alle 8.25
> 9926 Napoli-Torino P.S. alle 9.00
> 9901 Roma Ost.-Napoli alle 9.05
> 9903 Bologna-Napoli alle 10.05
> 9907/9909 Milano P.G.-Napoli-Salerno alle 11.05 effettua 9942/9944
> 9915/9917 Torino P.S.-Napoli-Salerno alle 13.05 effettua 9950/9952
> 9942/9944 Salerno-Napoli-Milano P.G. alle 14.00
> 9948 Napoli-Torino P.S. alle 15.00
> 9950/9952 Salerno-Napoli-Milano G.P. alle 16.00
> 9927 Milano P.G.-Napoli alle 16.05
> 9931 Torino P.S.-Napoli alle 17.05
> 9964 Napoli-Bologna alle 19.00
> 9939 Milano P.G.-Napoli alle 19.05
> 9943/9945 Torino P.S.-Napoli-Salerno alle 20.05
> 9987 Venezia-Napoli alle 20.35
> 9955 Torino P.S.-Napoli alle 23.05


*Above all, what is interesting is that this will be true competition: no coordinated schedules, no provision for common tickets with Trenitalia, no provision to use each others' train if one is cancelled/delayed etc.* Let the price wars now begin


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> *Above all, what is interesting is that this will be true competition: no coordinated schedules, no provision for common tickets with Trenitalia, no provision to use each others' train if one is cancelled/delayed etc.* Let the price wars now begin


And let the public be damned...


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> And let the public be damned...


The public will have more choice. Like they have had with airlines since international flight travel was de-regulated in the 1980s/1990s. Nobody can use a Lufthansa ticket to fly American Airlines on a Frankfurt-Chicago route, but prices are much lower.

I'm sure this move by NTV will result in lower prices from Trenitalia whose trains are inferior in terms of comfort and travel time


----------



## Sopomon

Suburbanist said:


> NTV is the most ambitious private open-access railway operation in Europe up to now. They are, finally, expected to start operating the first services in January or February.
> 
> Slots have been reserved, like this, for the Venezia-Roma operations:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will basically operate (Napoli)-Roma-Firenze-Bologna-Milano-(Torino) and Roma-Firenze-Bologna-Venezia services. But they still don't have enough trains, as Alstom is behind schedule delivering the revised AGV train sets (after their pre-commissioning with RFI).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is how they look like (actual trains, without the internal and external finishing, which are supposed to be a "surprise")
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> Nola Depot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I treni Italo a Nola by Treno .Italo - NTV S.p.A., on Flickr
> .
> 
> IL PRIMO TRENO: Lato treno by Treno .Italo - NTV S.p.A., on Flickr
> 
> On the Ferrovie On Line (an Italina forum about railways) I found what is apparently a schedule of trains at Napoli (times of departure, call or arrival at Napoli)
> 
> 
> *Above all, what is interesting is that this will be true competition: no coordinated schedules, no provision for common tickets with Trenitalia, no provision to use each others' train if one is cancelled/delayed etc.* Let the price wars now begin


Hopefully the Italian public will wake up to the sham that is trenitalia after riding a (hopefully) much better service, and trenitalia will start losing massive market share... one can only dream...


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> *Above all, what is interesting is that this will be true competition: no coordinated schedules, no provision for common tickets with Trenitalia, no provision to use each others' train if one is cancelled/delayed etc.* Let the price wars now begin


That's why I will not be able to use them...


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> The public will have more choice. Like they have had with airlines since international flight travel was de-regulated in the 1980s/1990s.


This is not just about choice. A lot of tax payer money went in to the high speed railway infrastructure in Italy. It 's the duty of the government to make sure that the maximum amount of value to the taxpayer is generated from that investment. That means that government has a duty to interfere if competition ends up lowering the total value of the service offered.

If railways could operate without any form of public support that would be different of course, but that is currently not the case.



> Nobody can use a Lufthansa ticket to fly American Airlines on a Frankfurt-Chicago route, but prices are much lower.


But you can use an United Airlines ticket. Ever heard of code sharing?



> I'm sure this move by NTV will result in lower prices from Trenitalia whose trains are inferior in terms of comfort and travel time


Of course Trenitalia will need to compensate for the loss of revenue, which might mean that elsewhere, where there is no competition, prices might go up, or services canceled. Which means less value to the tax payer funding al that beautiful but underutilized railway infrastructure...


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Slots have been reserved, like this, for the Venezia-Roma operations:


Interestingly two services don't stop in Firenze, although the timetable appears to allow for it. However RFI does seem to insist on proper interval timings...


----------



## VirusC

It seems like travel times are not so different from those of Trenitalia...
http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/np..._r=1&sort_r=0&traintype=&lang=it&channel=tcom
Maybe also longer.
I guess those trains will succeed only with much lower prices... that is just far from reality I think...


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> This is not just about choice. A lot of tax payer money went in to the high speed railway infrastructure in Italy. It 's the duty of the government to make sure that the maximum amount of value to the taxpayer is generated from that investment. That means that government has a duty to interfere if competition ends up lowering the total value of the service offered.


This would be the same of saying government should interfere with airline schedules to maximize the use of expensively built runways and terminals, or interfere with freight and parcel services by DHL to maximize the use of highways. Which is: nonsense. The government build infrastructure for the country, and let any capable (operationally and financially) user drive/ride/fly on/over/into it. 



> But you can use an United Airlines ticket. Ever heard of code sharing?


Of course. But that is because United Airlines and Lufthansa don't compete for the same markets. UA doesn't fly Frankfurt-London or München-Madrid, LH doesn't fly Chicago-Los Angeles or DEnver-Miami.

And suppose you have AA and LH flights between New YOrk and Frankfurt, they will only send passengers to the other at hefty fees on extreme cases, even if otherwise that means keeping a passenger who missed a flight another 24hours in the airport. Why can't trains operate the same way? Missed a NTV train? Wait the next one 5 hours later. Or buy only last-minute expensive tickets when you are at station. Or fork money out and buy another ticket. IT's called life under yield management.



> Of course Trenitalia will need to compensate for the loss of revenue, which might mean that elsewhere, where there is no competition, prices might go up, or services canceled. Which means less value to the tax payer funding al that beautiful but underutilized railway infrastructure...


That is just part of transportation markets. We shall get over it.


----------



## Suburbanist

VirusC said:


> It seems like travel times are not so different from those of Trenitalia...
> http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/np..._r=1&sort_r=0&traintype=&lang=it&channel=tcom
> Maybe also longer.
> I guess those trains will succeed only with much lower prices... that is just far from reality I think...


NTV is throwing its chips on providing a much more comfortable and clean train. The Ferrari on rails.


----------



## VirusC

Suburbanist said:


> NTV is throwing its chips on providing a much more comfortable and clean train. The Ferrari on rails.


I would not say that Trenitalia Hi sped trains are unconfortable or dirty...

Well, it would have been much more revolutionary to offer a low cost high speed service than an executive service in this particular historical period (crisis...)
Another private operator (Arenaways) tried to focus on an intercity service between Turin and Milan with higher standards, but it was more expensive than the one of Trenitalia... And now the society is failing... So good luck NTV.


----------



## Suburbanist

VirusC said:


> I would not say that Trenitalia Hi sped trains are unconfortable or dirty...
> 
> Well, it would have been much more revolutionary to offer a low cost high speed service than an executive service in this particular historical period (crisis...)
> Another private operator (Arenaways) tried to focus on an intercity service between Turin and Milan with higher standards, but it was more expensive than the one of Trenitalia... And now the society is failing... So good luck NTV.


I agree that the Freccie are not particularly bad trains, but from everything I heard and read their interiors are posher, and have more amenities like power sockets for every seat, wider 1st class seats and free wi-fi.

Arenaways failed because they didn't have scale (just couple regional trains) and, more important, its plans were thwarted because the Ministry of Transportation didn't let it sell tickets for all relations they wanted to, at request of Lombardia region. A complicated albeit different issue.

I agree with you: a low-cost operator would be much more powerful to shake the market at this time. High-speed trains make a huge money for Trenitalia, even after expensive track fees paid to RFI. But the market for new HS rolling stock is quite heated, I think ICEs are very expensive (more than the AGVs) and the other option would have been the AnsaldoBreda V250.

NTV is reported to have gotten a huge discount on those trains from Alstom.

In any case: a true low-cost operation (tickets sold only by Internet/smartphone/SMS, reserved place on trains but not specific seats, trains with 2nd class only carriages with a 2+3 seat alignment) has potential to come to Italy. Especially if it is one focusing on major cities only, to compete with domestic air routes (like a bunch of Milano Rogoredo - Roma Tiburtina non-stop runs in less than 3h) of low-cost airlines.

Trenitalia had those "Treno OK" in 2006 I guess, but retired them shortly afterwards.


----------



## ArtManDoo

Suburbanist said:


> Above all, what is interesting is that this will be true competition: no coordinated schedules, no provision for common tickets with Trenitalia, no provision to use each others' train if one is cancelled/delayed etc.[/b] Let the price wars now begin


If I commute on route that has three carriers but my ticket or period card is only valid for one. I see this system is not for people. When I miss a train then my ticket is not valid for next two trains, no I prefer other system that 
is built for people.

I can buy different producer foodstuffs at any given time but I can use carrier service only when it rides. It is a big difference, and if rail competitors strength goes for riding few lines, freedom and some feeders suffer highly.

The feeder services can be still run as funded from state or local money (you know that roads are subsided) but freedom will suffer when people can't use all trains on their needed route without extra high spending(system not for people).

If I need to change train and the train I needed leaved 10min before my train arrival then I find this system is not built for people, when it is possible then train schedules must be coordinated.



Suburbanist said:


> means keeping a passenger who missed a flight another 24hours in the airport.


And riding 5h by train is for you unacceptable and aged!!



Suburbanist said:


> That is just part of transportation markets. We shall get over it.


When other rail services suffer then they must be covered from other sources, otherwise society suffer having more congestion and less safe/environmental friendly means of transport. 

High frequency, high punctuality, safety, environmental friendly, coordinated schedules, energy efficiency, accessibility(no need for driving license) are strengths of railways what must be used to get max benefits for people.

When true competition can be introduced so that other rail services don't suffer and it brings some low cost planes down from sky then it is acceptable for society. Environment win's with no price of freedom ... all win. Of course
it means that Trenitalia and NTV will co-work for bring some planes down from sky, making most out of the system affording people to use both companies services on reasonable conditions.

As it seems to me you see money, I prefer system built for people.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> This would be the same of saying government should interfere with airline schedules to maximize the use of expensively built runways and terminals, or interfere with freight and parcel services by DHL to maximize the use of highways. Which is: nonsense.


Every single airport operator interferes with the schedules of airlines. Every single one of them. And they do this indeed with the goal of maximizing the return on the infrastructure. 
And governments interfere with airline schedules too. For all kinds of reasons, but often to make airports they invested in for political reasons somehow have a purpose...
I don't think Ryanair has a lot of flights where some government is not involved in footing part of the bill...

As I said again: If railways were to pay for their own infrastructure I would not have a problem with rialways doing with the ifrastructure what they want. But it's not their infrastructure. So the owner, operator of the infrastructure has a right to interfere. And if it's public infrastructure than the governement has a duty to make sure that it serves the public.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> We shall get over it.


Let Italy go to hell. Get over it. Is that what you are saying?


----------



## Suburbanist

ArtManDoo said:


> If I commute on route that has three carriers but my ticket or period card is only valid for one. I see this system is not for people. When I miss a train then my ticket is not valid for next two trains, no I prefer other system that is built for people.


The system is built to fit an unmet equilibrium of supply and demand. It is not for people. It is for transport of people. Different things.



> I can buy different producer foodstuffs at any given time but I can use carrier service only when it rides. It is a big difference, and if rail competitors strength goes for riding few lines, freedom and some feeders suffer highly.


This would be the same of saying that it is bad that if you lose your Alitalia flight Fiumicino - JFK departing 8:40, you can't take the 10:15 Continental flight on the same route. Just be on time for your trains, instead of missing it. Plan your life more, or pay for the convenience of making last-minute changes - that is the way to go.



> The feeder services can be still run as funded from state or local money (you know that roads are subsided) but freedom will suffer when people can't use all trains on their needed route without extra high spending(system not for people).


No problem at all. I don't oppose public financing of the infrastructure per se (tracks, signaling, stations), I just staunchly oppose any involvement with operations. Like road or air transport (government invests in highways and airports, but do not operate or own the cars, the planes, the trucks).



> If I need to change train and the train I needed leaved 10min before my train arrival then I find this system is not built for people, when it is possible then train schedules must be coordinated.


No. To have competition is a POWERFUL tool to induce innovation, price wars that lower costs indirectly (like putting pressuring to dismantle bloated railway unions paying train drivers as much as doctors or university teachers, for instance) etc. If there is enough supply of passengers in a route, companies will have a way to, each one, offer conveniently timed schedules.

The government should build tracks. Let private parties use those tracks, charge-free if that is the case (like un-tolled roads).



> When other rail services suffer then they must be covered from other sources, otherwise society suffer having more congestion and less safe/environmental friendly means of transport.


It is not the role of any government to promote modal shifting. It should build, at whatever acceptable cost, the infrastructure people want to use. If everyone is driving (highways congested), build more roads, screw the environment. If everyone is riding PRIVATE trains with a market logic (lines and stations crowded), build more lines, screw the local activists and birdwatchers.



> When true competition can be introduced so that other rail services don't suffer and it brings some low cost planes down from sky then it is acceptable for society. Environment win's with no price of freedom ... all win.


It's not a government's call to say that having more people using rails instead of planes and/or cars is better or worse. Governments should be "mode neutral".


----------



## Suburbanist

*High-speed trains now with 4 service classes*

Some high-speed ETR 500 trains now have 4 service classes, which is the vision from Trenitalia to its high-speed train consists, as they will all look.

From the Italian forum, I'll post some pictures of them (as released by Trenitalia)

*Standard class* - 272 seats per train - the present-day 2nd class. Fares will be lowered 5% and this class will see most of the promotions and discount fares.









*Premium class* - 134 seats per train - same width, longer pitch, more comfortable seats, complimentary drinks/snacks









*Business Class* 159 seats per train - meal, drinks, silent area, 115o reclination, double armrests, glass panels to increase privacy and reduce noise









*Executive Class* 8 seats per train - stand-alone seats only, hot meal with wine and drinks, designer-enhanced leather seats with leg rest, exclusive attendant, separate, private meeting room (on the background).









This is a video promoting the new executive class





===============

There has been some criticism because the number of the least expensive seats on each train has been reduced by 28%, though the Premium class will cost only 5% more than the standard fare of the former 2nd class. However, it will offer less discounts and "Mini" fares for advanced purchase.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Suburbanist said:


> *Standard class* - 272 seats *per train *


per car


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## tool2106

Some pics I shot this morning and a couple of hours ago at Rome Tiburtina New High Speed Station, due to open to service next Monday.

The building which took fire in july has been completely demolished in the last days











Brand new platforms 1 and 2 east have been eventually covered


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## tool2106

This evening:


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## tool2106

You can check more on the Italian Forum thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1423874&page=150


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## webeagle12

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaglesky/6316380593/in/set-72157628062354030/lightbox/
by eaglesky









http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaglesky/6316894216/in/set-72157628062354030/lightbox/
by eaglesky


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> No problem at all. I don't oppose public financing of the infrastructure per se (tracks, signaling, stations), I just staunchly oppose any involvement with operations. Like road or air transport (government invests in highways and airports, but do not operate or own the cars, the planes, the trucks).


So basically the tax payer should pay up and shut up. That's your point?


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## Suburbanist

The Tiburtina terminal is coming nicer than I had expected from the renders.

The previous station was hideous: and old, run-down terminal with dodgy claustrophobic tunnels, vandalized thoroughly, complete the opposite of the piece or work being completed there.


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## Baron Hirsch

Suburbanist said:


> Some high-speed ETR 500 trains now have 4 service classes, which is the vision from Trenitalia to its high-speed train consists, as they will all look.(...) There has been some criticism because the number of the least expensive seats on each train has been reduced by 28%, though the Premium class will cost only 5% more than the standard fare of the former 2nd class. However, it will offer less discounts and "Mini" fares for advanced purchase.


Frankly speaking this executive class business usually does no go well. DB had to abandon its slick Metropol trains between Hamburg and Cologne because demand was just not there. On Railjet the premium class just produces empty seats. The idea of a premium 2nd class is more interesting than ÖBB's idea of lumping an extra 25 Euros on top of a first class fare. Let us see if it will find exceptance in Italy or whether they will have to be sold at the old rates soon.


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## Suburbanist

Baron Hirsch said:


> Frankly speaking this executive class business usually does no go well. DB had to abandon its slick Metropol trains between Hamburg and Cologne because demand was just not there. On Railjet the premium class just produces empty seats. The idea of a premium 2nd class is more interesting than ÖBB's idea of lumping an extra 25 Euros on top of a first class fare. Let us see if it will find exceptance in Italy or whether they will have to be sold at the old rates soon.


I made some simulation on Trenitalia website for services using those trains. The difference between 2nd class - standard and 2nd class - premium is low, something like 10%-15% of the total fare. What I think they missed is to offer quiet seats (a car or part of a car where noise is to be kept to a minimum, no cell phone use at all) on 2nd Premium.

As for the Executive class, I think it is more appealing on long trips, or at least it is an attempt from Trenitalia to make longer trips by train (such as Napoli-Milano) more appealing to the business traveler.

Problem is: to fork € 219 instead of ~€ 80-100 seems a bit too much for most companies budgeting travel.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> It's not a government's call to say that having more people using rails instead of planes and/or cars is better or worse. Governments should be "mode neutral".


What if the voters order the government not to be "mode neutral"?

For example: The voters of the city of Basel ordered their government to reduce car traffic in the city by 10%. Should the government ignore that?


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> What if the voters order the government not to be "mode neutral"?
> 
> For example: The voters of the city of Basel ordered their government to reduce car traffic in the city by 10%. Should the government ignore that?


Voters of Italy don't have ballots. 

Italians like to have choice.

Italy is not Switzerland.

Italians railways are to be treated more and more as business, not public services.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Italy is not Switzerland.


Noticed how far more Italians move to Switzerland than vice versa...


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> Noticed how far more Italians move to Switzerland than vice versa...


That has nothing to do with the quality of rail in Italy or Switzerland.


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## Sopomon

Suburbanist said:


> That has nothing to do with the quality of rail in Italy or Switzerland.


Well, it _does_, but the link isn't very strong at best


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## K_

Sopomon said:


> Well, it _does_, but the link isn't very strong at best


That's true. But it was more a remark other things. Suburbanist seems to be of the opinion that his agenda trumps everything, that the wishes of the public, the tax payer or the voter don't mean anything. I just pointed out that if Italy is in his opinion a better country than Switzerland that quite a sizeable portion of the Italian population seems to think otherwise...


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## JB Colbert

K_ said:


> ... I just pointed out that if Italy is in his opinion a better country than ...


Is what a sizeable portion of the world think about us.


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## Federicoft

K_ said:


> Noticed how far more Italians move to Switzerland than vice versa...


Very surprising, especially given the fact that there are about eight times more Italians than Swiss.


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## Fab87

Prime minister Mario Monti arriving in Rome by HS train Eurostar Frecciarossa today.


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## tool2106

Some pictures forn the Italian thread of this morning official opening of Rome Tiburtina New Highspeed Station



XIX said:


> Sight from Pietralata Side
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> http://www.flickr.com/photos/dede90/6419917935/
> 
> External side
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> www.flickr.com/photos/dede90/6419915289/
> 
> Internal view from the same side
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> www.flickr.com/photos/dede90/6419911913/
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> www.flickr.com/photos/dede90/6419908863/


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## tool2106

From the main Italian newspaper website



GENIUS LOCI said:


> http://roma.corriere.it/gallery/rom..._f38e4424-19be-11e1-8452-a4403a89a63b.shtml#2


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## thun

Very good. Tiburtina indeed makes a lot of sense for the Italian HSR network.


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## foxmulder

Good, this was really needed.


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## TSpor

Italy has purchased some new AGV trains from France.Do you have pictures ??


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## RamiroII

Nice pictures of Tiburtina!

So now, do all the high speed trains stop only at Tiburtina? Or do some of them still go to Termini?


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## Suburbanist

TSpor said:


> Italy has purchased some new AGV trains from France.Do you have pictures ??


Yes, Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori (a new private rail operator company) ordered 25 AGVs. You can check their website for pictures. However, they are keen on making the final livery (and interior) a "surprise", so far they are only painted in dark red.


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## GENIUS LOCI

TSpor said:


> Italy has purchased some new AGV trains from France.Do you have pictures ??


^^


Cori said:


> Foto di fabbrica a La Rochelle e dintorni:
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> Dal forum FTF...





alguer80 said:


>


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## Federicoft

RamiroII said:


> Nice pictures of Tiburtina!
> 
> So now, do all the high speed trains stop only at Tiburtina? Or do some of them still go to Termini?


They all still depart and arrive at Termini. Just a few Milan-Naples trains only call at Tiburtina atm.
This will change in the future, though.


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## tool2106

Rome Tiburtina. Earlier this evening. Pictures by me.


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## tool2106




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## tool2106




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## tool2106




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## tool2106




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## tool2106




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## tool2106




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## tool2106




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## tool2106




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## tool2106




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## tool2106

The eastern parking square:


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## tool2106




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## tool2106

Through the outside glass





















And that's all folks !


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## GENIUS LOCI

:applause:


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## B1ritney

I mapped the pattern of lines on which trains travel types.

Can anyone suggest how to know which model trains will fall to, say, on the route Roma-Reggio Calabria and Roma-Genova. I want to make my trip travel to Italy next year so as to ride on the ETR 500, ETR 485, ETR 600, ETR 450 (a dream!!! Oldschool), on a train with a locomotive E.414 and, most importantly on the AGV (I understand that he has not yet been put into operation)


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## solchante

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:


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## K_

Nice station. Even has a balcony for train spotters


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## makita09

B1ritney said:


> (I understand that *s*he has not yet been put into operation)


/pedant


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## Wilhem275

B1ritney said:


> Can anyone suggest how to know which model trains will fall to, say, on the route Roma-Reggio Calabria and Roma-Genova. I want to make my trip travel to Italy next year so as to ride on the ETR 500, ETR 485, ETR 600, ETR 450 (a dream!!! Oldschool), on a train with a locomotive E.414 and, most importantly on the AGV (I understand that he has not yet been put into operation)


Hi, nice plans 

You will find for sure a "Frecciabianca" EuroStarCityItalia (ESCI), with an E.414, on the Milan - Venice route. Exception are the first in the morning VE>MI and the last in the evening MI>VE, which include some coaches from/to Wien and use a "regular" E.402 B machine.
E.414 are some of the lousiest locos we have around here, I have to say... unreliable and with an extremely poor acceleration. Frecciabiancas are just regular cars hauled by a couple of those machines. On Rome - Genoa links you will find those cars, usually hauled by an E.402 B

ETR 600 are in regular service on the HS Frecciargento link Rome - Venice, sometimes you may have an ETR 485.

ETR 485 are regularly used on Rome - Verona - Brescia links.

ETR 500 cover the Milan - Rome Frecciarossa link.

ETR 450, altough not tilting anymore, is still a great train, with a superb ride quality. You will immediately recognize its interiors to be designed after airliners ones.
You can find it in service on the EuroStar link between Rome and Reggio Calabria.


NTV's AGV will probably be put into service on the main link, Milan - Rome, but we are still waiting to know when. If everything sorts out well, services may begin in early 2012.


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## robcdy

this looks awesome! I wish we have those kind of infrastructure in the Philippines!


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## Cori

Sopomon said:


> Hopefully the Italian public will wake up to the sham that is trenitalia after riding a (hopefully) much better service, and trenitalia will start losing massive market share... one can only dream...


Hopefully.... ETR500 is a very old train (24 y.o) refurbished 3 times (last upgrading has been cost 500 million euro) With these money Trenitalia could buy more than 500 coach absolutely new... from Siemens,Alstom or Astra Wagonae....puah!

Good point to NTV,last pics from *vuesurlavoie*


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## K_

Cori said:


> Hopefully.... ETR500 is a very old train (24 y.o) refurbished 3 times (last upgrading has been cost 500 million euro) With these money Trenitalia could buy more than 500 coach absolutely new... from Siemens,Alstom or Astra Wagonae....puah!


500 million euro doesn't buy you 500+ state of the art passenger coaches. Such coaches will set you back something like euro 2 million a piece...


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## intersezioni

*ITALO - NTV train Italy*

A video of ITALO the new private high speed train in italy. Started from march 2012:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa15DllFzSc


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## George5

intersezioni said:


> A video of ITALO the new private high speed train in italy. Started from march 2012:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa15DllFzSc


It seems in Italy everything is possible even to gave name to French product "Italo". :lol:

It is same like if Brazil gave new name to VW Golf, Brazilo.


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## joseph1951

K_ said:


> *500 million euro doesn't buy you 500+ state of the art passenger coaches*. Such coaches will set you back something like euro 2 million a piece...


K,

Probably is true. But 500 million Euros will certainly buy over 250 state of the art passenger coaches.


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## GENIUS LOCI

George5 said:


> It seems in Italy everything is possible even to gave name to French product "Italo". :lol:
> 
> It is same like if Brazil gave new name to VW Golf, Brazilo.


I don't get your point...

It's a commercial train of a private company operating in Italy, which gives a commercial name to their own trains for a service in Italy.
It's marketing communication

Who cares where the trains were built?
If tomorrow they change 'em with Japanese or Italian trains the name will remain the same probably


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## Suburbanist

^^ I even think NTV took too long to deploy their commercial service name (italo). Maybe because they didn't want to burn the brand while the service launch was delayed.


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## intersezioni

Sorry but the train is not 'built in Savigliano former Fiat factory in Italy' has been bought by the French?


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## intersezioni

George5 said:


> It seems in Italy everything is possible even to gave name to French product "Italo". :lol:
> 
> It is same like if Brazil gave new name to VW Golf, Brazilo.




And as if the brand company's Brazilian aircraft must have French or american names, because are built by Boeing or Airbus !!!!!!!!


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## K_

George5 said:


> It seems in Italy everything is possible even to gave name to French product "Italo". :lol:
> 
> It is same like if Brazil gave new name to VW Golf, Brazilo.


Well, Volkswagen did once sell a model named "Brasilia" in Brazil.


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## K_

Italo is giving us some glimpses about what the interior of their trains look like, and what the service level is going to be on a new site:
http://www.italotreno.it/
(Only in Italian, but the pictures speak for themselves)


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## GENIUS LOCI

intersezioni said:


> Sorry but the train is not 'built in Savigliano former Fiat factory in Italy' has been bought by the French?


No. It was built in France


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## K_

GENIUS LOCI said:


> No. It was built in France


The first four sets were built in France. The rest are being built in Savigliano. That's in Italy...


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## AndreiB

K_ said:


> Italo is giving us some glimpses about what the interior of their trains look like, and what the service level is going to be on a new site:
> http://www.italotreno.it/
> (Only in Italian, but the pictures speak for themselves)


Fancy. I like the interior design and train staff uniforms.

Does anyone know what happened to the Arenaways train service?


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## Suburbanist

AndreiB said:


> Does anyone know what happened to the Arenaways train service?


They are in the middle of a bankruptcy process.

In a nutshell, the regions (Lombardia and Piemonte) sabotaged Arenaways plans alleging they would interfere with subsidized services too much, placing a burden in regional services. The cowards at the Ministry of Infrastructure agreed.


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## Coccodrillo

GENIUS LOCI said:


> No. It was built in France


As far I know, 8 are built in Savigliano and 17 in France.


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## George5

K_ said:


> The first four sets were built in France. The rest are being built in Savigliano. That's in Italy...


OK, shell we call Audi cars from Hungary, Hungaro or Toyota cars from UK, Britano? 

Savigliano is Alstom factory, anywhere. Lets finish with this nonsense.


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## K_

George5 said:


> OK, shell we call Audi cars from Hungary, Hungaro or Toyota cars from UK, Britano?


"Air Berlin" uses planes that are not built in Berlin. should that stop too?
What seems to escape you completely is that "Italo" is a brand. It's a brand that NTV uses to market it's service concept under. That the trains itself are "French" is irelevant. The management at NTV probably had a lot of brainstorms about the neam and came up with "Italo". So what. As long as the trains run on time and are cleaned regularly.



> Savigliano is Alstom factory, anywhere. Lets finish with this nonsense.


Well, you started it...


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> As far I know, 8 are built in Savigliano and 17 in France.


I think its a lot more complex than that. As far as I know four sets have been completely build in France (ie, left La Rochelle finished). Then there are sets that have been partially build in France, and were assembled or finished to a certain extent in Savigliano. How much of the work needs to be done in Savigliano in order to be able to call the train "Italian built" I don't know. 
Italians of course will stress the Italian contribution, whereas French might want to stress the French contribution...


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## intersezioni

Countdown for ITALO, the new private fast train in Italy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHFd9NlqtEM&feature=related


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## intersezioni

Maintenance center near Naples , ITALY:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=7a6spGaJJKs


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## JB Colbert

George5 said:


> OK, shell we call Audi cars from Hungary, Hungaro or Toyota cars from UK, Britano?
> 
> Savigliano is Alstom factory, anywhere. Lets finish with this nonsense.


Mamma mia quanto sei petulante!
E falla finita!!!


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## Vaud

That Italo name dispute is one of the most stupid ones I've seen around here. The owner of the trainsets can call the train and the service however it likes, and I think that given that it is based in Italy and is going to service Italy, the name Italo fits quite well.


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## K_

MarcVD said:


> Just had a look, interesting. You may have noted that even private railway
> companies put in place passenger train schedules with hourly patterns...


It's probably RFI that imposes the hourly pattern, just as RFF does with SNCF...


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## Hubert Pollak

K_ said:


> I wonder if SNCF will coordinate it's Paris - Torino - Milano schedule with Italo.


I see that it is already coordinated (but it could be improved when TGV will start use high speed line Turin - Milano).

Now I understand why the choose MILAN P GARIBALDI for Paris - Milano trains.

TGV:
PARIS GARE DE LYON 7:49
MILAN P GARIBALDI 14:45

ITALO:
MILAN P GARIBALD 15:19

TGV:
PARIS GARE DE LYON 10:41
MILAN P GARIBALDI 17:46

ITALO:
MILAN P GARIBALD 18:03 or 18:19


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> It's interesting how they manage to be faster then Trenitalia on Milano - Napoli despite having two stops in Milano (with their services being better integrated in the Milano transport network). This is possible because they don't go in to Roma Termina, but in stead use Rome Tiburtina. When is Trenitalia expected to to the same thing?
> 
> I wonder if SNCF will coordinate it's Paris - Torino - Milano schedule with Italo. SNCF owns 25% of NTV, and coopetating with them for France - Italy traffic seems logical. NTV could sell SNCF tickets at their offices too.


I guess they save time by not avoiding Milano Centrale and Roma Termini approaches, which are woefully slow.

The is a major interlock/trouble ahead of Roma Tiburtina they avoid as well.

Many services with a terminus in Roma will depart/arrive from Roma Ostiense though.


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## Suburbanist

One can easily see NTV padded the schedules to claim on-time performance.

Scheduled layovers:

Milano Rogoredo - 2 or 3 minutes
Bologna - 3 minutes
Firenze S.M.N. - 8 minutes
Roma Tiburtina - 7 to 13 minutes
Napoli Centrale - 12 minutes

38 minutes lost standing in intermediate stations between Milano P. Garibaldi and Salerno! One can also see how termini stations are horrible for schedules of trains merely calling there.

The problem in Firenze will be eradicated in the medium term, though, with a new underground high-speed station + urban bypass that will slash Bologna-Roma travel times by 16 minutes (it includes a massive underground sector underneath the city + underground station to a total cost around € 2,7 billion). It will be übercool, underground stations are the best.


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## Coccodrillo

Unfortunately Bologna HS station (directly under the existing one) and the Firenze one (aound 500 m from Santa Maria Novella) will only have four tracks.


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Unfortunately Bologna HS station (directly under the existing one) and the Firenze one (aound 500 m from Santa Maria Novella) will only have four tracks.


But they will be HSR-only through stations. I guess that suffice (I think they should have at least 1 extra track for train reversal in each direction as well).


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> But they will be HSR-only through stations. I guess that suffice (I think they should have at least 1 extra track for train reversal in each direction as well).


Bologna and Firenze is not where you want to reverse trains. Trains should be scheduled through as much as possible.

I can imagine however that once one train per hour stops there RFI will declare the station at capacity and will force private operators to use the old station...


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## GENIUS LOCI

Turin, Porta Susa station



derit said:


> Foto di Michele D'Ottavio... qui la galleria competa http://archivemood.photoshelter.com....XmQNWeEzCU/I0000otXzXNOOnpI/P0000QO7yjJsSeAk


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## Railfan




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## KingNick

> APA0076 5 WA 0159 Mo, 19.Mär 2012
> 
> Verkehr/Bahn/Industrie/Auto/Italien
> Ferrari-Chef will mit Zügen von Italien nach Deutschland fahren
> 
> Utl.: Privatbahn-Projekt startet dieses Jahr zunächst in Italien =
> 
> München (APA/AFP) - Der Chef des italienischen Luxusautoherstellers Ferrari will mit einem privaten Bahnunternehmen langfristig in den Zugverkehr zwischen Italien und Deutschland einsteigen. Zunächst plane er allerdings den baldigen Start der ersten drei Verbindungen innerhalb Italiens, sagte Luca di Montezemolo der "Süddeutschen Zeitung" vom Montag. Die Züge von Neapel nach Mailand und Venedig sowie von Turin nach Mailand sollten nach Ostern auf die Schienen gebracht werden.
> 
> "Wir wollen die Liberalisierung der Hochgeschwindigkeitsnetze nutzen und haben das teuerste und ambitionierteste Privatprojekt in Italien der vergangenen zehn Jahre angestoßen", sagte Montezemolo.
> Auch Verbindungen über die Grenzen seien geplant. "Von Mailand und Venedig nach München oder nach Wien - das wäre fantastisch. Wir haben das beste italienische Essen an Bord, ein tolles Kino, einen Waggon fürs Relaxen. Solche Züge haben Sie noch nicht gesehen", warb der Ferrari-Chef für sein Projekt.
> (Schluss) ivn/ags


Basically Montezemolo told "Süddeutsche" he wants to take advantage of HSR deregulation in Europe and plans to connect Munich and Vienna with Milan and Venice.

Austria's part over the Brenner is already equipped with ETCS L2 and about to enter service by December this year. ETCS L2 won't be seen on Austria's Southern Railway before 2021 (or even later) though. TBH without the big projects (Koralm Railway and Semmering Base Tunnel) being finished, Vienna - Venice is highly unattractive by train.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Indeed. There are even no more fast(ish) trains running between Wien and Venezia.


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## Pironi

OBB would love to run more trains (apart from EN) between Vienna and Venice, but FS is blocking heavily. SBB, DB and SNCF just have the same problems with FS.


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## Suburbanist

Pironi said:


> OBB would love to run more trains (apart from EN) between Vienna and Venice, but FS is blocking heavily. SBB, DB and SNCF just have the same problems with FS.


RFI blocking OBB? Aren't issues related to safety and the deployment of the SCMT protocol?


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## Pironi

Suburbanist said:


> RFI blocking OBB? Aren't issues related to safety and the deployment of the SCMT protocol?


They did that on many occasions already, where it was not just about safety.

OBB's 1216 is certified for Italy, so safety can not be a real argument here. SCMT is further more compatible with ETCS L1 locos.


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## K_

KingNick said:


> Basically Montezemolo told "Süddeutsche" he wants to take advantage of HSR deregulation in Europe and plans to connect Munich and Vienna with Milan and Venice.
> 
> Austria's part over the Brenner is already equipped with ETCS L2 and about to enter service by December this year. ETCS L2 won't be seen on Austria's Southern Railway before 2021 (or even later) though. TBH without the big projects (Koralm Railway and Semmering Base Tunnel) being finished, Vienna - Venice is highly unattractive by train.


One thing they could do is just cooperate with the current DB/OeBB Brenner operation. OeBB could also run trains again from Villach to Venezia (finally putting that new line the Italians build to good use) and coordinate timetables on both the Brenner and Pontebbana routes with Italo. And then sell through tickets. Italo is opening offices in all major railway stations. They could offer DB, OeBB, SNCF etc. to sell their tickets too.


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> One thing they could do is just cooperate with the current DB/OeBB Brenner operation. OeBB could also run trains again from Villach to Venezia (finally putting that new line the Italians build to good use) and coordinate timetables on both the Brenner and Pontebbana routes with Italo. And then sell through tickets. Italo is opening offices in all major railway stations. They could offer DB, OeBB, SNCF etc. to sell their tickets too.


Why should Italo devalue its high effort to brand itself, at least in the Italian market, as a state-of-the-art service with THE most modern trains in Europe, a World apart from Trenitalia, then sell code-share tickets with crappy rolling stock from the late 1980s that OBB/DB uses on the Brennero route? Pointless.

It should run the AGVs all the way to Wien and München!


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## Pironi

Suburbanist said:


> [..]
> 
> It should run the AGVs all the way to Wien and München!


For that Italo would need more trains, or they have to thin out their service in Italy. A code-share agreement with OBB/DB (they formed a JV for the Brenner, right?) seems to be a great idea to check whether there's demand for that service or not.


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## Galactic

Pironi said:


> For that Italo would need more trains, or they have to thin out their service in Italy. A code-share agreement with OBB/DB (they formed a JV for the Brenner, right?) seems to be a great idea to check whether there's demand for that service or not.


Mere thinning of their domestic schedule would not be enough, as the trainsets currently owned by NTV aren't equipped to operate in Austria or Germany. They have 3 kV and 25 kV power systems, while the voltage of the Austrian and German electrification is 15 kV.


----------



## Pironi

You sure the AGV could not run at 15 kv as well? I mean it's the most common Voltage in Europe these days and pretty much all new locos can run at 15 kv. I am not aware of any that can not.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Pironi said:


> it's the most common Voltage in Europe these days


It is? I would have thought 3kV or 1.5 kV or 25kV.


----------



## LtBk

Can't be worse that US passenger rail network. Very slow speeds, delays, poor frequency, crappy infrastructure etc. Even the Acela HSR line is slow.


----------



## Federicoft

I'd say the main problems of the Italian railways are old and degraded rolling stock, terrible customer service, rigid fare structure, poor integration with other public transport systems, poor timetable planning, decaying medium and small stations, declining investments on minor lines. 
Punctuality is not really a problem in my experience, although of course people tend to be very sensitive about it. Speed and frequencies are generally pretty good, even on many non-HS lines.


----------



## krnboy1009

Any chance Italian high speed rail service can pull off what German ICE might be able to do and negin direct link to London?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Frequencies .are often acceptable (but not to German or Swiss standards), but trains lack coordination (trains A-B and B-C miss each other for 5 minutes).

Then there are many holes, sometimes quite absurd. Between Pescara and Foggia there are no trains between 6.35 and 12.38, then there is one every hour until 20.51. That because the 6.35 train is a regional one stopping everywhere, the others are long distance trains coming from the north (Torino/Milano/Bologna) that reach Pescara in the afternoon. In the other direction the last fast train leaves at 16.45.


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## LtBk

Our rolling stock is composed of locomotives(mostly diesel ones) with bulky designs.


----------



## K_

Federicoft said:


> Why do you say this? The public transport network in most cities might not be the densest or the most efficient, but public transport in Italy has always been heavily subsidized by the state and local governments. Regional trains, buses, trams or metros are very cheap compared to most of Europe.


They are heavily subsidized, true, but the resulting service levels are often way below what similar levels of subsidies achieve elsewhere. That because there is no competitive tendering. That is changing however.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

*Roma Tiburtina* from the plane




Altaich said:


> 3 settimane fa circa, in avvicinamento a Ciampino


----------



## Suburbanist

Italo has finally started selling tickets! First train runs Apr. 28th


----------



## Busfotodotnl

Oh nice, just viewed the Alstom Megafactories NGC-broadcast about the construction of the NTV-AGV's and was wondered about the state of the service.


----------



## Maadeuurija

Suburbanist said:


> Italo has finally started selling tickets! First train runs Apr. 28th


Good to hear that :cheers:



Busfotodotnl said:


> Oh nice, just viewed the Alstom Megafactories NGC-broadcast about the construction of the NTV-AGV's and was wondered about the state of the service.


That broadcast was quite interesting, wasn't it.


----------



## Railfan

*Aviable to download!*

NTV Italo! MSTS / OpenRail










http://www.trenesvenezolanos.com/Paywares.htm

*Test before real running!*


----------



## nazrey

*Italy launches Europe's first private high-speed train*
Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 13:19 by AFP
http://www.mmail.com.my/story/italy-launches-europes-first-private-high-speed-train










A photographer takes a picture of a train of the railway company NTV on 
April 20 at Rome's Tiburtina station. NTV, the first private operator on the 
Italian high speed rail network, makes his first trip between Rome and Naples on April 20. AFPpic

NAPLES, Italy: Italy launched Europe's first private high-speed train service last week, as the country looks towards the more liberal economy that Prime Minister Mario Monti wants to put on the rails.

*The dark-red bullet-shaped "Italo" *trains are run by NTV, a company headed by Ferrari boss Luca di Montezemolo who wants to take a quarter of the market from state rail network Trenitalia, the biggest employer in the country.

"Italo has arrived, the competition has kicked off," NTV told its first passengers on an inaugural trip from Rome to Naples as they admired interiors that included a cinema carriage, leather seats and panoramic windows.

The project is one example of the new ambitions of the eurozone's third largest economy under Monti, a former EU competition commissioner who plans to shake up a sluggish economy heavily influenced by protectionist traditions.

Economics professor Monti came to power in November replacing Silvio Berlusconi and has said he wants to take on "vested interests" as well as calling for large-scale privatisations.

*"We're talking a lot about growth. This is real growth for the country by someone who invests and takes a risk," Montezemolo told reporters, pointing out that the company had invested one billion euros (RM4 billion).*










Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, president of the railway company NTV walks 
into a wagon prior to departure on April 20 from Rome's Tiburtina station. AFPpic

"We should be proud of being the first in Europe with a private high-speed train company," said the entrepreneur, who has struggled for years to get the project up and running, condemning Trenitalia for its obstructionism.

"This is a day that shows we have confidence in our country," he said.

France's national rail company SNCF owns a 20-per cent stake in NTV but the majority is held by a consortium of Italian businessmen including Montezemolo and Diego Della Valle, the billionaire head of luxury shoemaker Tod's.

The carriages are produced by French company Alstom.

"Our aim is to take a 20-25 per cent stake of the market by 2014," transporting nine million passengers within three years, Montezemolo said, adding that the company would operate 25 trains by January 2013.

"Consumers have already benefited from the beginning of competition. Trenitalia has lowered its ticket prices and improved the service," Marco Ponti, a professor of transport economics in Milan, told AFP.

"Italo" hopes to gain a competitive advantage with a system offering passengers cut-price tickets by booking early or travelling at off-peak times.

But Ponti warned that the nascent competition may be too "uneven."

"This is a dwarf against a giant. Trenitalia owns the railway, the stations, the waiting rooms, everything," he said.

"The economy is not very favourable with the crisis," he said, adding: "Montezemolo can go bankrupt, Trenitalia can't. It's a state company."

Italy's economy entered recession in the second half of last year and the government this week warned that the situation will worsen, with a forecast contraction in gross domestic product (GDP) of 1.2 per cent this year.

Ponti warned that the economic outlook could bring Trenitalia and NTV together with a deal "that would destroy healthy competition."

"What we need is a third player," he said.

The head of Trenitalia, Mauro Moretti, played down talk of a bitter rivalry saying this was "a new, unique challenge ... in the interests of our clients."


----------



## Coccodrillo

> "Italo has arrived, the competition has kicked off," NTV told its first passengers on an inaugural trip from Rome to Naples as they admired interiors that included a cinema carriage, leather seats and *panoramic windows*.


Although it's true it has many windows, half of the seats are placed near the walls between windows, without any view...


----------



## krnboy1009

So how does private train company in Italy work? do they share tracks with the state owned rail company?


----------



## Suburbanist

krnboy1009 said:


> So how does private train company in Italy work? do they share tracks with the state owned rail company?


In Italy, infrastructure and vehicle operation are separated.

RFI owns tracks and some stations (not the biggest ones). Companies (such as Trenitalia, Trenord, NTV-Italo) tun trains over RFI's tracks.


----------



## krnboy1009

Yea so they do share the track with state run Trenitalia?


----------



## Sunfuns

Yes of course. As in most countries almost all tracks are government owned.


----------



## Verso

Very nice train. When will it start running between other cities?


----------



## Coccodrillo

To Salerno this summer, to Venice in October, to Turin in December.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ MAny people forget the high-speed line goes actually to Salerno, and not Napoli.


----------



## 33Hz

Is it a Zefiro 380?


----------



## intersezioni

I think it a new version of Zefiro 380. is a co-production with Bombardier and AnsaldoBreda.

http://www.fsnews.it/cms-file/audio/fsnews/Jingle_meno7_ingl.mp3


----------



## Suburbanist

Too bad Trenitalia is not buying V250s


----------



## .franco

Federicoft said:


>


nice pic!


----------



## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> Too bad Trenitalia is not buying V250s


Succesful troll is... unsuccesful! Troll-plot foiled!


----------



## joseph1951

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Vmax there is 265 km/h


Nope. The Vmax is 250 km/h on a 39km long stretch. Unfortunately, at the moment, the line has a speed restriction and the Vmax is only 180 km/h.


----------



## joseph1951

intersezioni said:


> Preview the new Trenitalia high speed train that will run soon on the high speed railway network in Italy.
> The train will be officially presented at Rimini on 19/08/2012, and his name and FRECCIAROSSA 1000. will be 'made ​​in Italy and' will 'train the most modern and environmentally friendly in the world.
> 
> bye
> 
> links
> 
> http://www.ansaldobreda.it/
> 
> http://www.fsitaliane.it/


Nope. It is an entirely Bombardier project. The ETR 1000 is a slight more poweful version of the Zefiro300 and Ansaldobreda will only assemble the interiors (i.e: it will screw to floor the passenger seats). 

The technical specifications are:

acceleration up to 0,7 m/s2 (but up to what speed?) ) - 360 km/h in 540 seconds (_Spanish Velaro 0-350 km/h in 380 seconds, TGV Duplex 0-320 km/h in 380 seconds_). 

Vmax in revenue 360 km/h (at the moment not exploitable on the newly built Italian HSLs which have been built for a revenue top speed of 300 km/h but only on very short stretches.
Weight 500 tons (with passenger on board).
Carrying capacity: about 500 passenger = 1 passenger for about 950 kg of train weight. 
(_TGV Duplex: 1 passenger/ 0,7 tons of train_).
Also it features the twindex type of tilting, limited to 1.5 degree cant deficiency.

The ETR100 ( alias Zefiro 300+ Moretti version) is a train planned entirely by Bombardier and it represents Bombardier answer to Velaros, ICE X, TGVs, Talgo 380, Talgo 350, AGV first and second generation, etc. 
It does not have the lightness and acceleration of the Talgos 350 & 380, and it has an unfavourable passenger/weight ratio, but on the rendering it looks nice, it is expensive, and for the moment, it exists only on paper.

Renfe has an excess of about 70 High speed trains (Velaro, TGV Talgos 350 and talgo 250) which have never been on revenue service and are maintained in pristine conditions. 

Mr Moretti could have bought these 70 High speed trains with a substantial discounts. 

Futhermore the HSTs that Renfe bought in excessive quantities are well tested an their technical envelopes have been perfected over the years, whilst the Zefiro 300+ (or ETR1000) is still an open and untested project, which looks very nice on paper,..... but it is a known fact that new prototypes suffer from teething problems.

Personally, I would have bought these new and redundant Spanish Velaro, Spanish TGV Duplex, Spanish Talgo 250 & 350 with a 40-50% discounts.

The Zefiro 300+ FrecciaMoretti (alias ETR1000) is meant to be used by Mr Moretti to conquer the Very High speed paneuropean business travelling outside the Italian borders at speeds up to 360 km/h, whilst in Italy this train will be travelling at a top speed of 300 km/h.

Unfortunately for Mr Moretti, the (in)famous CEO of Trenitalia , France , Spain, Germany, Switzerland, UK etc, rail administrations have no intention of running HSTs at 360 km/h in the near future.

As a matter of fact Spanish , French, German, Austrian, UK railways administrations think that running at 360 km/h is uneconomical with the present technology.


----------



## joseph1951

intersezioni said:


> I think it a new version of Zefiro 380. is a co-production with Bombardier and AnsaldoBreda.
> 
> http://www.fsnews.it/cms-file/audio/fsnews/Jingle_meno7_ingl.mp3


Nope. 

It is a version of the Zefiro Platform V250~ 300 ~ 360. AnsaldoBreda will only assemble the interior seats.


----------



## K_

joseph1951 said:


> Renfe has an excess of about 70 High speed trains (Velaro, TGV Talgos 350 and talgo 250) which have never been on revenue service and are maintained in pristine conditions.
> 
> Mr Moretti could have bought these 70 High speed trains with a substantial discounts.


Would RENFE have sold these if asked?


----------



## Think

^^They are suposed to be used in the new HSLs that should have been opened in 2012 and will be opened in 2013, 2016,...


----------



## Coccodrillo

Spanish HSTs (except the S-100) cannot run on 3 kV DC; so in Italy they would be completely useless...


----------



## K_

Think said:


> ^^They are suposed to be used in the new HSLs that should have been opened in 2012 and will be opened in 2013, 2016,...


But in the mean time they could be used on the existing lines.

Take Barcelona - Madrid. That RENFE isn't running more on that line is something I don't get. 
(But I'm in the wrong thread for that...)


----------



## Nexis

Looks like an upgraded version of the Acela....


----------



## intersezioni

Competition between two high-speed trains in Italy, the Turin-Milan line,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9uUykgWZkM&feature=channel&list=UL





50 minutes at 300 km / h with Italo, fast railway line Bologna - Milan in Italy,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5Q427IQD1Y




ciao


----------



## joseph1951

intersezioni said:


> Competition between two high-speed trains in Italy, the Turin-Milan line,
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9uUykgWZkM&feature=channel&list=UL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 50 minutes at 300 km / h with Italo, fast railway line Bologna - Milan in Italy,
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5Q427IQD1Y
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ciao


Not quite so. Just to be more precise:
_ The Line is Bologna- Central Station to MIlan- Central Station and it is 219 km long.

Italo ((the AGV belonging to NTV) travels from Bologna - Central Station to Milan -Rogoredo Station, and Milan Rogored is about 12 km south o Milan Central Station. For an HST it takes about 9-10 minute to cover the the 12 kms betwen Milan Rogoredo a Milan Central. Therefore Bologna Central - Milan Rogoredo is about 207 km long.

Italo in an AGV limited to 300km/h on Italian HSTs , nevertheless it is clear that it is more perfomant than the_ old_ ETR500. It has an acceleration which is almost double of that of of the ETR500.

In this journey Italo was slowed down to a crawling pace roughly from minute 42: 40 to 46:27 of the video, and the it pottered along at a very modest speed until it stopped at Milan - Rogoredo Station at the minute 53:34. In spite of this the train was still ahead of schedule, because Italo journey time from Bologna Central to Milan- Rogoredo is scheduled in 56 minutes.


Had Italo not be slowed down about 10-15km before Milan - Rogoredo Station it would have made the journey fro Bologna Central to Milan Rogoredo in *44-45 minutes, without exceeding the 300-305 km/h mark.*

*Italo is an AGV consist of 11 carriages *with an empty weight of *375**t* and *7,500 kW of power*. This type of AGV has been homologated in Italy for a top speed of 300 km/h.

In spite of this, I am quite convinced that this AGV is capable of making the journey from Bologna- Central to Milan -Central in about *55'~56'*. (For the ETR500 the scheduled journey time from Bologna- Central to Milan- Central is 65 minutes..) 

NTV has an option to buy another 25 AGV sets. It is quite possibile that NTV will exercise its option to buy further 25 AGV sets, which will be more powerful, with higher acceleration and /or higher top speed (i.e: 320-360 km/h).

I also believe that SNCF will eventually buy some AGV, but they will be very different from those bought by NTV, and assigned to the Italian domestic market. 

Or, alternatively, SNCF will buy some TGV Superduplex incorporating AGV technology, and namely the AGV type of electric motors which seems to be among the most efficient on today's market, and capable of producing up to 1.4 kW per each kg of motor.

Also SNCF has been talking for some time about the new generation of TGV locomotive weighing 5 tons less than the previous locos, and with an output in excess of 5.000 kW. 

We'll see...


----------



## intersezioni

Coming Soon 19/08/2012:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQrwd5eT-Wg


----------



## intersezioni

Frecciarossa 1000: The train more modern and quiet in the world, he can travel on all high-speed lines in Europe, can travel at speeds up to 400 km / h, while the speed 'medium' of 350 km / h. . It is an eco-friendly train








,








,








,








,








,

Video promo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnMHWkBLbP4,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKHJikmKAuc


----------



## Galactic

intersezioni said:


> Frecciarossa 1000: The train more modern and quiet in the world, he can travel on all high-speed lines in Europe, can travel at speeds up to 400 km / h, while the speed 'medium' of 350 km / h. . It is an eco-friendly train


All high-speed lines in Europe? I must say I don't believe this statement. Unfortunately I couldn't find the exact specs for the ETR 1000, but not only would it have to be quad-voltage, it would have to be equipped for the myriad of signalling systems in use on HSLs all over Europe (TVM, KVB, TBL and LZB in addition to ETCS and SCMT). If you also count the 200 km/h lines, you get more signalling systems and the Iberian gauge, and if you count Russia, you get KLUB-U and the Russian gauge.

I think that a train that runs on "all high-speed lines" won't be made before 2020, even if you only count 300 km/h lines in Western Europe.


----------



## intersezioni

Galactic said:


> All high-speed lines in Europe? I must say I don't believe this statement. Unfortunately I couldn't find the exact specs for the ETR 1000, but not only would it have to be quad-voltage, it would have to be equipped for the myriad of signalling systems in use on HSLs all over Europe (TVM, KVB, TBL and LZB in addition to ETCS and SCMT). If you also count the 200 km/h lines, you get more signalling systems and the Iberian gauge, and if you count Russia, you get KLUB-U and the Russian gauge.
> 
> I think that a train that runs on "all high-speed lines" won't be made before 2020, even if you only count 300 km/h lines in Western Europe.


and train a multi-voltage (STI)
* Frecciarossa 1000 will be the first European train AV fully interoperable. Thanks to innovative technical features and sophisticated - will be a multi-train in accordance with the European Technical Specifications for Interoperability (TSI) - do not know, in fact, borders and be able to travel on all networks AV Europe (France, Germany, Spain, Austria, Switzerland , Holland and Belgium), overcoming the limitations in infrastructure, in particular the different power supplies and various types of signaling.



To this end, the cockpit and the island of electronic Frecciarossa 1000, are designed and developed with modular concepts that allow to dialogue with the different technological systems installed in different countries and, especially, to pass, in a fast and effective, from one solution to another. The signaling equipment on-board management systems integrate with the national unified at European level, thus ensuring, together with full interoperability, the maximum operational safety. The project, in fact, given the different "packages Country 'by defining modules common to all - Diagnostic Monitor, commands related to the function of the train, and ERTMS Automatic Train Protection (ATP) Italy - and the specific parts of the countries concerned (ATP as national and Modules times) on the train in an easily removable drive or on the bench in dedicated cabinets island-mail. Not only speed, but also comfort, quality and safety.


Ansalbreda video:

http://www.ansaldobreda.it/


----------



## Galactic

intersezioni said:


> and train a multi-voltage (STI)
> * Frecciarossa 1000 will be the first European train AV fully interoperable. Thanks to innovative technical features and sophisticated - will be a multi-train in accordance with the European Technical Specifications for Interoperability (TSI) - do not know, in fact, borders and be able to travel on all networks AV Europe (France, Germany, Spain, Austria, Switzerland , Holland and Belgium), overcoming the limitations in infrastructure, in particular the different power supplies and various types of signaling.
> 
> 
> 
> To this end, the cockpit and the island of electronic Frecciarossa 1000, are designed and developed with modular concepts that allow to dialogue with the different technological systems installed in different countries and, especially, to pass, in a fast and effective, from one solution to another. The signaling equipment on-board management systems integrate with the national unified at European level, thus ensuring, together with full interoperability, the maximum operational safety. The project, in fact, given the different "packages Country 'by defining modules common to all - Diagnostic Monitor, commands related to the function of the train, and ERTMS Automatic Train Protection (ATP) Italy - and the specific parts of the countries concerned (ATP as national and Modules times) on the train in an easily removable drive or on the bench in dedicated cabinets island-mail. Not only speed, but also comfort, quality and safety.
> 
> 
> Ansalbreda video:
> 
> http://www.ansaldobreda.it/


Ah, ok, so the systems are modular and expandable. What was originally said wasn't quite wrong then, but it would have been more accurate to say that the train "can easily be retrofitted to travel on all high-speed lines in Europe".


----------



## Coccodrillo

FS press release (in Italian): http://www.fsnews.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2d1caa5d65f39310VgnVCM1000008916f90aRCRD

Bombardier press release (in English): http://www.bombardier.com/en/transp...press-releases/details?docID=0901260d802403c8


----------



## joseph1951

K_ said:


> Would RENFE have sold these if asked?


I dont' know.


----------



## Ki2

joseph1951 said:


> Nope. It is an entirely Bombardier project. The ETR 1000 is a slight more poweful version of the Zefiro300 and Ansaldobreda will only assemble the interiors (i.e: it will screw to floor the passenger seats).
> 
> The technical specifications are:
> 
> acceleration up to 0,7 m/s2 (but up to what speed?) ) - 360 km/h in 540 seconds (_Spanish Velaro 0-350 km/h in 380 seconds, TGV Duplex 0-320 km/h in 380 seconds_).
> 
> Vmax in revenue 360 km/h (at the moment not exploitable on the newly built Italian HSLs which have been built for a revenue top speed of 300 km/h but only on very short stretches.
> Weight 500 tons (with passenger on board).
> Carrying capacity: about 500 passenger = 1 passenger for about 950 kg of train weight.
> (_TGV Duplex: 1 passenger/ 0,7 tons of train_).
> Also it features the twindex type of tilting, limited to 1.5 degree cant deficiency.
> 
> The ETR100 ( alias Zefiro 300+ Moretti version) is a train planned entirely by Bombardier and it represents Bombardier answer to Velaros, ICE X, TGVs, Talgo 380, Talgo 350, AGV first and second generation, etc.
> It does not have the lightness and acceleration of the Talgos 350 & 380, and it has an unfavourable passenger/weight ratio, but on the rendering it looks nice, it is expensive, and for the moment, it exists only on paper.
> 
> Renfe has an excess of about 70 High speed trains (Velaro, TGV Talgos 350 and talgo 250) which have never been on revenue service and are maintained in pristine conditions.
> 
> Mr Moretti could have bought these 70 High speed trains with a substantial discounts.
> 
> Futhermore the HSTs that Renfe bought in excessive quantities are well tested an their technical envelopes have been perfected over the years, whilst the Zefiro 300+ (or ETR1000) is still an open and untested project, which looks very nice on paper,..... but it is a known fact that new prototypes suffer from teething problems.
> 
> Personally, I would have bought these new and redundant Spanish Velaro, Spanish TGV Duplex, Spanish Talgo 250 & 350 with a 40-50% discounts.
> 
> The Zefiro 300+ FrecciaMoretti (alias ETR1000) is meant to be used by Mr Moretti to conquer the Very High speed paneuropean business travelling outside the Italian borders at speeds up to 360 km/h, whilst in Italy this train will be travelling at a top speed of 300 km/h.
> 
> Unfortunately for Mr Moretti, the (in)famous CEO of Trenitalia , France , Spain, Germany, Switzerland, UK etc, rail administrations have no intention of running HSTs at 360 km/h in the near future.
> 
> As a matter of fact Spanish , French, German, Austrian, UK railways administrations think that running at 360 km/h is uneconomical with the present technology.



In reality it's absolutely not a project entirely developed by Bombardier. If you do some reseach on the Bombardier website they state a 42 % involvement in the project.

If you compare this with other Euorpean constructed trains Bombardier had an 18% involvement in the TGV project, 27-49 % involvement in the German ICE project (depending on the model) and a 40% involvement in the Spanish AVE project.

Bombardier is the biggest and most important constructor of high speed trains in the world and they have been a very important participant in this project. But saying that the ETR 1000 is entirely Bombardier's is absolutely misleading. 

The structure is also completely constructed in Italy where as the exterior design and interior design is done by Bertone. I think and hope that this will prove a turning point for the Italian railway industry that once ruled the world.

Can you also please specify the source of your technical facts?


----------



## K_

Galactic said:


> All high-speed lines in Europe? I must say I don't believe this statement. Unfortunately I couldn't find the exact specs for the ETR 1000, but not only would it have to be quad-voltage, it would have to be equipped for the myriad of signalling systems in use on HSLs all over Europe (TVM, KVB, TBL and LZB in addition to ETCS and SCMT). If you also count the 200 km/h lines, you get more signalling systems and the Iberian gauge, and if you count Russia, you get KLUB-U and the Russian gauge.
> 
> I think that a train that runs on "all high-speed lines" won't be made before 2020, even if you only count 300 km/h lines in Western Europe.


Building a train that can run under multiple overhead voltages is trivial nowadays. And by the time these trains are delivered all of Europe will be on ETCS


----------



## Suburbanist

what about trains that can run under CC and AC? I think that requires a big converse.


----------



## joseph1951

Ki2 said:


> In reality it's absolutely not a project entirely developed by Bombardier. If you do some reseach on the Bombardier website they state a 42 % involvement in the project.
> 
> If you compare this with other Euorpean constructed trains Bombardier had an 18% involvement in the TGV project, 27-49 % involvement in the German ICE project (depending on the model) and a 40% involvement in the Spanish AVE project.
> 
> Bombardier is the biggest and most important constructor of high speed trains in the world and they have been a very important participant in this project. But saying that the ETR 1000 is entirely Bombardier's is absolutely misleading.
> 
> The structure is also completely constructed in Italy where as the exterior design and interior design is done by Bertone. I think and hope that this will prove a turning point for the Italian railway industry that once ruled the world.
> 
> Can you also please specify the source of your technical facts?


Not true. Unelsss they recycle the carriages of the unsold Albatros V250 trains, (Aka Fyra 250), the design is entirely based on Bombardier Zefiro Platforrm (Train Versions 250-300-360-380 km/h, the Zefiros 250 and 380 have already sold in China). 

The engines are asyncronous motors made by bombardier. The Flexx bogies are made by Bombardier (they have also been used on the Regina types of trains...) te Mitrac traction system is made by Bombardier, the somewhat semi -tilting mechanism (WAKO SYSTEM) mounted on the ETR1000 is made by Bombardier and, the same mechanism it is also mounted on the Swiss Twindexx... also made by Bombardier .... 

*The ETR1000 seats are made in Italy and wil be mounted on the train in situ by AnsaldoBreda*.


Bombardier needs to have both a HST and a VHST platformS for the European market and it is using Italy as to experiment with its basic Zefiro V300, V300+ platform.

In recent times Bombardier has made toO many acquisitions of european company, which manufacture trains, and at the moment these companies are working at 40 per cent of their full capacity.

When it comes to AnsaldoBreda, this company has had two recent disastrous experiences: the IC4 and the Albatros V250..

On the other hand Hitachi has built the Javelin for the UK market and has recently been awarded the £4,8 blllion contract* for the IEPs (* If I remember correctly).

In Europe, in the near future in the the HSTs market there will be fierce competitions with new trainS and new entrants (Hitachi, BombardIer). 

Anyway going back to the "new" ETR1000 Zefiro Moretti (or Zefiretti) this train, like all the other new trains built beforse this one, will certainly have teething problems . 

With regard to the technical specifications so far made known the train does not appear sto be expeceptional: its accelerations is not at all exceptional (0 km/h to 360 km/h in 9 minutes = 540 seconds), the train appears to be too heavy (500 tons) and carry 1 passenger for about 1.08 tons of train, whilst the TGV Duplex carrry 1 pax / 0.700 of train. (total 462 pax + 1 invalid).
Also, both Bombardier and Mr Moretti, the present Trenitalia Baff.on General *have been very secretive about the capacity of this train to circulate on HLS with 2.5% or 3.5% , or indeed 4%* ...... 


The first series of AGV sold to NTV weighs 375 tons and carry 450-460 pasenger. Compared to the standard 11 carriages AGV which has 6 motorised carriages the NTV series has only 5 motorised carriages and it will have a better acceleration curve than that of the Zefiretti ETR1000. The 2nd and 3rd series of the AGV will certainly be somewhat more surprising, and the Talgo Avril 380 in "jumbo version" appears to be very promising (600-700 pax in economy seating) it weight is 315 tons, it has an output of 12,000 kW , and a top speed 380 km/h....




*The Italian Railways never ruled the world. *

*Finally I woluld like to remember to you that on the SSC Italian section I WAS THE FIRST FORUIMER TO WRITE THAT THE NEW ITALIAN TRAIN WAS GOING TO BE A ZEFIRO V300, V300+ well OVER 2 YEARS BEFORE THE OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT.* 

*At the time i did explain the reasons. Also, since 2009 I have repeatedly posted in the Italian section of SSC the technical specifications of the Zefiro Range, starting with the very first brochure with the carriages designed by Zagato.*

The PDFs have been on line fo several years by now. So *move *your lower back.

i


----------



## .franco

*Plus on est de fous, plus on rit*


----------



## makita09

Suburbanist said:


> what about trains that can run under CC and AC? I think that requires a big converse.


Do you mean DC and AC? If so, its not difficult, or expensive.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> what about trains that can run under CC and AC? I think that requires a big converse.


A DC only train will be cheaper (and probably lighter) than an AC train, as you don't need a transformer. However an AC DC multi system train is only marginally more expensive than a pure AC train. 
And with concepts like ABB's PETT the overhead supply becomes completely irrelevant.


----------



## MarcVD

joseph1951 said:


> The engines are asyncronous permanent motors made by bombardier.


I suppose you meant "Asynchronous motors with permanent magnets" ?
That does not exist. Synchronous motors can use permanent magnets
instead of a magnetic coil in the rotor. This is useful because it avoids
gliding contacts (to feed the coil). But the rotor of an asynchronous
motor does not require anything like that, it only uses the rotating field 
generated by the stator coils.

Synchronous motors with permanent magnets were first used by Alstom
for the AGV and were prototyped in the TGV set that broke the last speed
record.


----------



## JB Colbert

joseph1951 said:


> ...
> *The Italian Railways never ruled the world. *
> ...


Do you know Pendolino?!?


----------



## rheintram

JB Colbert said:


> Do you know Pendolino?!?


You mean the trainsets that are always broken?


----------



## Suburbanist

rheintram said:


> You mean the trainsets that are always broken?


Pendolinos always broken?


----------



## JB Colbert

Don't care about them...


----------



## .franco

*Un avenir durable pour les transports européens...*









:lol:


----------



## Gadiri

joseph1951 said:


> ...
> 
> *Renfe has an excess of about 70 High speed trains (Velaro, TGV Talgos 350 and talgo 250) which have never been on revenue service and are maintained in pristine conditions.*
> 
> ...
> 
> Personally, I would have bought these new and redundant Spanish Velaro, *Spanish TGV Duplex,* Spanish Talgo 250 & 350 with a 40-50% discounts.
> 
> ...


What do you call Spanish TGV Duplex ? ^^

Renfe has an excess of 70 HST ? Give me a link please.


----------



## .franco

joseph1951 said:


> *The Italian Railways never ruled the world. *


Are you sure?


----------



## joseph1951

MarcVD said:


> 1 -
> I suppose you meant "Asynchronous motors with permanent magnets" ?
> That does not exist. Synchronous motors can use permanent magnets
> instead of a magnetic coil in the rotor. This is useful because it avoids
> gliding contacts (to feed the coil). But the rotor of an asynchronous
> motor does not require anything like that, it only uses the rotating field
> generated by the stator coils.
> 
> 2 -
> Synchronous motors with permanent magnets were first used by Alstom
> for the AGV and were prototyped in the TGV set that broke the last speed
> record.


1-
http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=ps...gc.r_pw.&fp=fca0b7d26ac46426&biw=1016&bih=537


2-

Yes.


----------



## joseph1951

Gadiri said:


> 1
> What do you call Spanish TGV *Duplex* ? ^^
> 2
> Renfe has an excess of 70 HST ? Give me a link please.


Gadiri,

1-
This was a typo : meant Spanish TGV.
2-
I have read them both in the Spanish press, and on the Spanish SSC Railways sections, just a few weeks ago.
You might try the Spanish SSC Railways Forums. 

Unfortunately, at the moment , I am too ill to do some detailed research on the subjetc, and I will send you some detailed links as soon as I feel better.


----------



## joseph1951

Gadiri said:


> 1
> What do you call Spanish TGV *Duplex* ? ^^
> 2
> Renfe has an excess of 70 HST ? Give me a link please.


Gadiri,

1-
This was a typo : meant Spanish TGV.
2-
I have read them both in the Spanish press, and on the Spanish SSC Railways sections, just a few weeks ago.
You might try the Spanish SSC Railways Forums. 

Unfortunately, at the moment , I am too ill to do some detailed research on the subjetc, and I will send you some detailed links as soon as I feel better.


----------



## .franco

*What is so wrong about that?*

Back to all Press Releases
Press Releases
Bombardier And Finmeccanica Sign Cooperation Agreement For The Development Of A New Very High-Speed Train

April 01, 2008 — Berlin
Transportation

Bombardier Transportation and AnsaldoBreda, Finmeccanica's subsidiary for the railway sector, announced today their signature of an agreement to jointly develop, bid and manufacture a new high speed train capable of travelling at more than 300 km/h and which eliminates the shortcomings of existing concepts. Important aspects such as improved operating efficiency and safety, enhanced seating capacity and compliance with European interoperability standards will be addressed. This will be possible by appliyng the leading technologies recently developed by Bombardier Transportation and Finmeccanica for the the global high speed rail sector.

Background facts and figures

About Bombardier in high-speed rail
As the leading supplier of passenger rail equipment and services worldwide, Bombardier has accumulated 20 years of experience in the high speed sector and has participated in the delivery of almost 850 trains and vehicles for high-speed and very high-speed applications worldwide. Bombardier has been a key player in the delivery of almost all very high-speed trains operating today in Europe, including the ICE family of trains in Germany, the ETR 500 in Italy, the AVE S-102 in Spain and four different series of TGV in France. This experience has recently culminated in its evolutionary in-house development, known as BOMBARDIER ZEFIRO high-speed technology. Utilising service-proven systems and components from some of the most successful high-speed trains in Europe and China, including the optimum in carbody, bogies, propulsion and pantograph equipment, the ZEFIRO technology allows to create tailor-made solutions for individual customer requirements’ to ensure their commercial success.

ZEFIRO technology was recently incorporated within a contract in China for the delivery of 20 EMU sleeper trainsets, awarded in October 2007.

About AnsaldoBreda in high-speed rail
A global player in the railway transportation and mass transit sectors, AnsaldoBreda has particular experience in high speed rail demonstrated by the delivery of the multi system ETR500 train to the Italian railways.

AnsaldoBreda is currently delivering its new V250 high speed train to the Netherlands and Belgium railways for operation on the Amsterdam Brussels route.

Built with highly proven systems, such as the propulsion and the signaling systems, the V250 high speed train is known for its superior performance and compliance with European interoperability standards (TSI).

About AnsaldoBreda
AnsaldoBreda is the Finmeccanica’s specialist in the manufacture of technologically advanced rolling stock for railway and urban transit systems that represents the state of the art under both the mechanical and the electrical aspects.

AnsaldoBreda builds complete trains, high-speed trains, diesel and electrical locomotives, double-decker electric trains, Electric Multiple Unit (EMU), Diesel Multiple Unit (DMU), single and double-decker passenger cars, subway cars and Sirio trams.

About Bombardier
A world-leading manufacturer of innovative transportation solutions, from regional aircraft and business jets to rail transportation equipment, systems and services, Bombardier Inc. is a global corporation headquartered in Canada. Its revenues for the fiscal year ended Jan. 31, 2007, were $14.8 billion US, and its shares are traded on the Toronto Stock Exchange (BBD). Bombardier is listed as an index component to the Dow Jones Sustainability World and North America indexes. News and information are available at www.bombardier.com.

About Finmeccanica
Finmeccanica is Italy’s leading high-tech company, operative in the design and manufacture of helicopters, civil and military aircrafts, aero structures, satellites, space infrastructure, missiles and defense electronics. Finmeccanica also boasts significant manufacturing assets and skills in the transport and energy. The group is listed in the Milan stock exchange and operates in Italy and abroad through its companies and joint ventures. It employs around 60.000 staff in total, about 10.000 of which are located in the UK, 3.500 in France and 2.000 in the United States. 

BOMBARDIER and ZEFIRO are trademarks of Bombardier Inc. or its subsidiaries
http://www.bombardier.com/en/corporate/media-centre/press-releases/details?docID=0901260d8001aa87


----------



## Silly_Walks

.franco said:


> the V250 high speed train is known for its superior performance


Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


----------



## .franco

yeah, sure...
we have the same problems but on a larger scale with alstom and his "fantastique" AGV.... 
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Dis moi, combien de AGV ont été vendus ces dernières années dans le monde...CHINE, RUSSIE, ETC.....
BTW. Why didn't you answer my question?...
se vuoi possiamo parlare direttamente italiano... tanto so benissimo che comprendi (tu o qualcuno della tua cricca...) la lingua italiana, l'olandese, il francese... he he he


----------



## Silly_Walks

.franco said:


> yeah, sure, the problems in holland and danmark...
> we have the same problems but on a larger scale with alstom and his "fantastique" AGV....


I was reacting to a very specific, and factually erroneous (and through that actually hilarious), piece of marketing text in your post. I don't know why you have to drag Alstom or the AGV into this.


----------



## .franco

Silly_Walks said:


> I was reacting to a very specific, and factually erroneous (and through that actually hilarious), piece of marketing text in your post. I don't know why you have to drag Alstom or the AGV into this.


I'm sorry, but it's the truth...:banana:


----------



## Suburbanist

Silly_Walks said:


> I was reacting to a very specific, and factually erroneous (and through that actually hilarious), piece of marketing text in your post. I don't know why you have to drag Alstom or the AGV into this.


V250 is already on commercial (revenue) service in Netherlands.


----------



## .franco

Suburbanist said:


> V250 is already on commercial (revenue) service in Netherlands.


 Stay on topic please. hno:
 ITALY | High Speed Rail <---------- u are here :lol: 
THE NETHERLANDS | High Speed Rail <------------ not here


----------



## .franco

*The real history of HST in Europe*

Guess the train !


:cheers:








:cheers:









:cheers:








:cheers::cheers:









:banana:


----------



## Silly_Walks

.franco said:


> I'm sorry, but it's the truth...:banana:


What is the truth? That you tried to drag Alstom into your post by the hairs?


----------



## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> V250 is already on commercial (revenue) service in Netherlands.


1 (ONE!) train set making occasional trips with passengers does not justify the statement that *"the V250 high speed train is known for its superior performance"*.


----------



## .franco

Silly_Walks said:


> What is the truth? That you tried to drag Alstom into your post by the hairs?


 :nuts:
YOUR QUESTION IS COMPLETELY WRONG, CAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE ITALIAN HSR hno: (not AB V250) and trust me, I'm never posted anything about AB V250 on this site.
i'm not a fan boy... 
BTW....*Why didn't you answer my question?..**.*


----------



## Silly_Walks

.franco said:


> :nuts:
> YOUR QUESTION IS COMPLETELY WRONG, CAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE ITALIAN HSR hno: (not AB V250) and trust me, I'm never posted anything on this site.
> i'm not a fan boy...
> BTW....*Why didn't you answer my question?..**.*


I quoted something from *YOUR post* about the AnsaldoBreda V250.


----------



## .franco

*U Seriously Need To Get A Life!*

I'm talking about the *DEAL* BETWEEN AB and Bombardier!

Bombardier Transportation and AnsaldoBreda, Finmeccanica's subsidiary for the railway sector,* announced today their signature of an agreement to jointly develop, bid and manufacture a new high speed train capable of travelling at more than 300 km/h and which eliminates the shortcomings of existing concepts. Important aspects such as improved operating efficiency and safety, enhanced seating capacity and compliance with European interoperability standards will be addressed. This will be possible by appliyng the leading technologies recently developed by Bombardier Transportation and Finmeccanica for the the global high speed rail sector.*
http://www.bombardier.com/
Allora, perchè continui a rompere i coglioni? 
BTW....Why didn't you answer my question?...


----------



## Gadiri

joseph1951 said:


> Gadiri,
> 
> 1-
> This was a typo : meant Spanish TGV.
> 2-
> I have read them both in the Spanish press, and on the Spanish SSC Railways sections, just a few weeks ago.
> You might try the Spanish SSC Railways Forums.
> 
> Unfortunately, at the moment , I am too ill to do some detailed research on the subjetc, and I will send you some detailed links as soon as I feel better.


Ok. Take care of yourself.


----------



## Gadiri

This discuss reminds me some documents that I have in my computer :


----------



## Gadiri

*ETR 500
World indoor record (tunnel) : 362 km/h
Firenze - Bologna
2009*

Nobody talk about it, but in moroccan forum yes


----------



## joseph1951

Gadiri said:


> *ETR 500
> World indoor record (tunnel) : 362 km/h
> Firenze - Bologna
> 2009*
> 
> Nobody talk about it, but in moroccan forum yes


Actually it's not the world speed record in tunnel. Quite unusually, the Italian press has promptly admitted the blatant error.


----------



## .franco

@ Gadiri
salve, sono sicuro che conosci la mia lingua, quindi te lo dico in italiano, se ti è possibile, potresti levare le brochures pubblicitarie dal nostro thread per favore.
personalmente credo che la brochure sia veramente inopportuna 
grazie in anticipo :banana:


----------



## .franco

Florence–Rome high-speed railway
*The line was the first high-speed line opened in Europe*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence–Rome_high-speed_railway


----------



## .franco

Gadiri said:


> *ETR 500
> World indoor record (tunnel) : 362 km/h
> Firenze - Bologna
> 2009*
> 
> Nobody talk about it, but in moroccan forum yes


:banana:


----------



## italiano_pellicano

italo train is amazing


----------



## joseph1951

*V300 zefiro = ETR1000*


*Technical specifications:*


http://www.ansaldobreda.it/Portals/.../Highspeed/V300Zefiro/Pdf/148_ITA_V300new.pdf


----------



## .franco

Frecciarossa 1000 in 3D




:cheers:


----------



## .franco




----------



## KingNick

I am looking forward to the day Americans eventually pronounce foreign names right.


----------



## doinel

I'm always wondering what Richard Quest sounds like when he's drunk (for real).


----------



## KingNick

Richard Quest is the perfect example for the sheer incompetence at CNN. A channel to be set on mute.


----------



## hans280

KingNick said:


> I am looking forward to the day Americans eventually pronounce foreign names right.


He, he, he... wrote Robert Fisk (British columnist): "President Bush apologised to the Iraqi nation for the crimes at Abu Ghraib, and he promised to deal swiftly with al-Zarqawi. It would have made a greater impression if he had bothered to learn to pronounce any of these names". :lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

*NTV mulls new services to Marche*

Apparently, NTV is considering a new partially high-speed service to connect Marche with Milano. The province would be in talks with NTV to set up such service.

There would be 4 or 5 daily departures from Ancona to Milano and back, with intermediate stops in Fano, Pesaro, Rimini and Bologna.

NTV has also declared its interests on exploring "higher speed" services along non-HS mainlines. 

The Adriatic line actually offers a nice opportunity for additional services. Trenitalia uses mostly older rolling stock, and it has slowed down a number of trains by adding too many stops. 

Let's see what happens with this proposal.


----------



## Suburbanist

*Improvements on rail line to Reggio Calabria*

Italian government has committed € 615 million for 2013 works on the speeding and modernization of the Salerno-Reggio Calabria railway.

This is part of a plan to allow full 200km/h traffic all the way to Reggio C. 

In my opinion, this is a complicate rail case. It is too far from everything else to be competitive without a full-blown HSR. It will still takes 3h10 to travel between Reggio Calabria and Napoli after all improvement works have been completed on faster trains running there. It is unlikely there would be a Roma-Reggio Calabria train under 4 hours (currently the faster trains there take whooping 6h18 for the whole trip, which makes them not a competitor for domestic flights). 

A new HSR there, though, would cost at least € 30 billion because of unforgiving terrain. Then, you need other € 4 billion for "il Ponte". 

So I really don't know what is the best course of action there.


----------



## Sunfuns

The best is probably to do exactly what they are proposing to do. 3 h 10 m (if true) from Reggio to Napoli would still beat driving by a considerable margin and adding another 1 1/2 h to Rome would still be marginally competitive with flying. In any case it would be convenient for those wanting to go from Rome or Naples to sea side resorts further south. 

Reggio is too small to warrant a full blown HSR line through a very difficult terrain, besides I don't think Italy can afford that right now.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ The idea would be having the bridge completed, Messina and Catania are far bigger cities than Reggio.


----------



## Samply

Suburbanist said:


> Apparently, NTV is considering a new partially high-speed service to connect Marche with Milano. The province would be in talks with NTV to set up such service.
> 
> There would be 4 or 5 daily departures from Ancona to Milano and back, with intermediate stops in Fano, Pesaro, Rimini and Bologna.
> 
> NTV has also declared its interests on exploring "higher speed" services along non-HS mainlines.



http://www.ntvspa.it/it/ntv/pagine/1390/Italo-a-tutta-forza-verso-l’Adriatica.html

According to this hopefully the link between Milan and the Adriatic riviera would be functional by June 2013 connecting Milan with Bologna, Forlì, Rimini, Pesaro and Ancona with 3 trainsets a day. :cheers:


----------



## Suburbanist

It is estimated that the average price of tickets on routes with NTV vs. Trenitalia competition dropped 16% on the 2nd semester of 2012 (between June and December timetable changes).

Trenitalia is apparently following a policy of closing on Italo prices to avoid losing market share.

Meanwhile, the number of domestic non-connecting air passengers between Milano and Roma dropped 63% between 2006 and 2012.


----------



## Sunfuns

Flying might still be more convenient for certain passengers coming from the surrounding countryside, but it's hard to imagine why would inhabitants of Milan and Rome itself would choose it over the train.


----------



## Neverworld

Suburbanist said:


> Meanwhile, the number of domestic non-connecting air passengers between Milano and Roma dropped 63% between 2006 and 2012.


Wow, that's a big drop. Of course, Milano used to be a hub for Alitalia back in the days, so maybe there is an increase in connecting passengers? Any numbers on that? After all, the Linate situation is tricky, as airlines are only allowed to operate a specific number of flights from that airport if I recall correctly. Anyway, bit off-topic.



Sunfuns said:


> The best is probably to do exactly what they are proposing to do. 3 h 10 m (if true) from Reggio to Napoli would still beat driving by a considerable margin and adding another 1 1/2 h to Rome would still be marginally competitive with flying. In any case it would be convenient for those wanting to go from Rome or Naples to sea side resorts further south.
> 
> Reggio is too small to warrant a full blown HSR line through a very difficult terrain, besides I don't think Italy can afford that right now.


Well, Italy doesn't really have a budget problem at the moment, it's more a growth issue. If a competitive railway in the South can potentially solve part of that problem, I'd say start building yesterday.


----------



## dreaad

Suburbanist said:


> Italian government has committed € 615 million for 2013 works on the speeding and modernization of the Salerno-Reggio Calabria railway.
> 
> This is part of a plan to allow full 200km/h traffic all the way to Reggio C.
> 
> In my opinion, this is a complicate rail case. It is too far from everything else to be competitive without a full-blown HSR. It will still takes 3h10 to travel between Reggio Calabria and Napoli after all improvement works have been completed on faster trains running there. It is unlikely there would be a Roma-Reggio Calabria train under 4 hours (currently the faster trains there take whooping 6h18 for the whole trip, which makes them not a competitor for domestic flights).
> 
> A new HSR there, though, would cost at least € 30 billion because of unforgiving terrain. Then, you need other € 4 billion for "il Ponte".
> 
> So I really don't know what is the best course of action there.


today the fastest train between rome and reggio calabria takes 5h12, using the HSL till naples.
with the line upgraded, 4h or little more is feasible.


----------



## Mauz®

^^
SPAM!


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Turin Porta Susa Station



Paxromana said:


> Già postato?


----------



## timo9

KingNick said:


> I am looking forward to the day Americans eventually pronounce foreign names right.


:lol:


----------



## timo9

:applause:


----------



## Silly_Walks

Ohhh it's the CRH380D, wonderful.


Quite astonishing that they based a new 380 km/h model on the same 'platform' as the old CRH1 which was actually based on the Regina, which only did 180-200 km/h.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Zefiro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regina_(train)

Nice evolution, from 200 to 380 km/h.


----------



## terminal

I like this brand new Frecciarossa


----------



## Sopomon

Silly_Walks said:


> Ohhh it's the CRH380D, wonderful.
> 
> 
> Quite astonishing that they based a new 380 km/h model on the same 'platform' as the old CRH1 which was actually based on the Regina, which only did 180-200 km/h.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Zefiro
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH1
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regina_(train)
> 
> Nice evolution, from 200 to 380 km/h.


No, not quite. The 380D is designed for higher speeds and I /think/ is a Bombardier solo project. The new Frecciarossa is a tandem project between AB (shudder) and Bombardier, I believe it's only meant to run at 300 km/h (perhaps 350?)


----------



## Busfotodotnl

Someone here who was in Pistoia yesterday and had the oppurtunity to take some pictures of the V250's over there?


----------



## intersezioni




----------



## Suburbanist

Now that AnsaldoBreda has recovered its credibility as a train manufacturer, hopefully better days are ahead for V250.

=============

The comlaints have started already. Some people like to pick on details or design choices that don't affect objective comfort measures:

"the windows are not aligned with seats"
"they didn't have many compartments"
"the small hatch-like window on the driver's cabin is too ugly and disruptive"


----------



## friedrichstrasse

Suburbanist said:


> Now that AnsaldoBreda has recovered its credibility as a train manufacturer ...



Did it?


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> The comlaints have started already. Some people like to pick on details or design choices that don't affect objective comfort measures:
> 
> "the windows are not aligned with seats"


So according to you being able to look outside has no impact whatsoever on comfort? Why not get rid of windows altogether then?


----------



## K_

friedrichstrasse said:


> Did it?


No it didn't. That AB can reliably assemble a train designed by someone else, under tight supervision, was already known. Ask Stadler.


----------



## terminal

Actually Breda was the train manufacturer of these two amazing world's champion high speed trains of the past...


----------



## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> Now that AnsaldoBreda has recovered its credibility as a train manufacturer, hopefully better days are ahead for V250.


Stop trolling.


They have assembled one train for another company, and there is NO proof this train won't fall apart either.


----------



## Sopomon

Suburbanist said:


> Now that AnsaldoBreda has recovered its credibility as a train manufacturer, hopefully better days are ahead for V250.
> 
> =============
> 
> The comlaints have started already. Some people like to pick on details or design choices that don't affect objective comfort measures:
> 
> "the windows are not aligned with seats"
> "they didn't have many compartments"
> "the small hatch-like window on the driver's cabin is too ugly and disruptive"


How anyone can take you seriously, I just don't know

Also, comfort is never objective, c'mon now


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> So according to you being able to look outside has no impact whatsoever on comfort? Why not get rid of windows altogether then?


Different argument. The ETR1000 isn't he train with biggest windows, but is has enough light entrances from every side.

When you travel on high-speed trains, it is usually actually very tiring to look out as the imagery of the surroundings goes too fast for the human eye to process (hence the "blurred" feeling of looking on the close area near a flying train).

So ETR 1000 do have plenty of windows. Just not one perfectly aligned with every seat (but, again, other great high-speed trains like the Thalys' TGVs and the ICEs don't either). 

Trenitalia had preferred to order reciprocal facing seat cars, but now the trend is moving in the other direction, as people more and more travel with computers/tablets, and want some tray to rest them over.


----------



## friedrichstrasse

terminal said:


> Actually Breda was the train manufacturer of these two amazing world's champion high speed trains of the past...


No, it isn't. Unfortunately the old Breda doesn't exist anymore. It was merged with its competitor Ansaldo and put under control of the State.

The awful quality of AnsaldoBreda trains is probably a result of a corrupted politics, that has been playing for years with the state-controlled companies hno:


----------



## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> When you travel on high-speed trains, it is usually actually very tiring to look out as the imagery of the surroundings goes too fast for the human eye to process (hence the "blurred" feeling of looking on the close area near a flying train).


Ah yes, that's why you can only see a blur when you look out the window of an 850 km/h jet.


Oh wait... looking at the distance, and the view is not blurred at al :bash:


STOP trolling.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ In any case, having a big window perfectly aligned with every seat is not something essential like heating, noise insulation, travel information monitors etc.


----------



## Sunfuns

How about waiting few years until this new train has proved itself in commercial operations before claiming that AnsaldoBreda can make something of quality again?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Now that AnsaldoBreda has recovered its credibility as a train manufacturer, hopefully better days are ahead for V250.


It's a Bombardier project. More or like the Stadler Flirt built by AnsaldoBreda for Italy.



Suburbanist said:


> The comlaints have started already. Some people like to pick on details or design choices that don't affect objective comfort measures:
> 
> "the windows are not aligned with seats"
> "they didn't have many compartments"
> "the small hatch-like window on the driver's cabin is too ugly and disruptive"


It's always nice to see that what you like is _obejctive and important_, what you don't like or don't care is an _unimportant detail_...


----------



## Cori

Busfotodotnl said:


> Someone here who was in Pistoia yesterday and had the oppurtunity to take some pictures of the V250's over there?


Yes here at 0:18 min. kay:


----------



## Fly80

nice 400 km/h train, RIP Pietro Mennea


----------



## tool2106

intersezioni said:


> The first Frecciarossa 1000 by Ansaldo Breda.
> Now start the test and the 2014 Milan - Rome in 2 hours and 15 minutes compared to 3 today. Can 'get to a maximum speed of 400 km / h but the speed' commercial 'of 360 km / h:


Hold on man, you're completely mistaken. The train will allow in a far to come future to run from Milan to Rome in 2h15m. But as today this is just a dream. The Rome - Florence highspeed tracks have a speed limit of 250 km/h. The Florence highspeed crossover works, including the highspeed station designed by Norman Foster, are stuck due to legal troubles concerning materials disposal.

So until 2020 at best trains will continue stopping in Santa Maria Novella where they must invert course.

Once opened the Florence highspeed tracks will allow to gain 15 minute from the present travel time.

There's still a lot to come before trains will run from Rome Tiburtina to Milan Rogoredo in two hours and fifteen minutes.


----------



## Suburbanist

*Platform height controversy delays arrival of Italo on the Adriatic line*

ItaloTreno had signed a protocol with the regions concerned to start operating a partially high-speed service Milano-Ancona, travelling till Bologna on the HSL and then going on the Adriatic line (non-HS but heavily upgraded).

The proposal is to operate 6 daily runs connecting Ancona (endpoint), Rimini and a couple other cities with Bologna and Milano with a single-seat ride and - more importantly - with much more comfort than the combination of crappy-ish regional trains + high-speed with transfer in Bologna.

However, there was a quagmire: Rimini platforms are too low to allow the operation of the AGVs. ItaloTreno offered to pay for the costs of raising them 30cm, less than € 800.000 worth of works. However, there was no provision on RFI rules to allow an interested party to pay directly for an improvement on station or tracks that would allow them to use them. Even if they wanted to donate (not just anticipate trackage and path fees in natura) the whole work (raising the platforms in Rimini is already part of the long-term investment plan there anyway).

Long story short:

- Italo trains will start operating only from December (instead of June) 2013
- Trenitalia launched a new "freccia" train (not sure if frecciabianca or frecciargento) covering the same area, preempting the competition


----------



## JumpUp

Hey,

is there currently any major project of new High Speed Rail in Italy? I know there is something going on in Firenze, but apart the Torino-Napoli-Salerno railway? Will there be any further HSR? Any new upgraded line for Fast trains?

Thank you!


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Treviglio-Brescia HSL (25 kV AC, ETCS) is under construction since little time and should open before 2020 (Milano-Treviglio is already in operation under 3 kV DC).

The Fréjus base tunnel (Lyon-Turin) might be constructed - but who knows?

Also some service tunnels for the Brenner base tunnel (BBT) are under construction.

I would not bet on the opening of these two tunnels before 2030, although the second one is more likely to be built.


----------



## joseph1951

tool2106 said:


> Hold on man, you're completely mistaken. The train will allow in a far to come future to run from Milan to Rome in 2h15m. But as today this is just a dream. The Rome - Florence highspeed tracks have a speed limit of 250 km/h. The Florence highspeed crossover works, including the highspeed station designed by Norman Foster, are stuck due to legal troubles concerning materials disposal.
> 
> So until 2020 at best trains will continue stopping in Santa Maria Novella where they must invert course.
> 
> 1-
> Once opened the Florence highspeed tracks will allow to gain 15 minute from the present travel time.
> 
> There's still a lot to come before trains will run from Rome -Tiburtina to Milan- Rogoredo in two hours and fifteen minutes.


According to the original plan, the underpass in the Florence area will have speed restrictions of *70 km/h under the new Florence railway station, and of 60 km/h near Campo di Marte *whilst, at present, the crossing of the florentine area allows a top speed of *115 km/h* from Firenze Castelli to Firenze Campo di Marte.


At present the Milan- Central Rome- Termini non-stop service does not stop at Florence SMN station, therefore it does not revert it course in the Florence area.


The future underground crossing will be only a few hundred yards shorter than the present crossing but the top speed will be halved. Therefore it is very difficult to foresee a time reduction of 15 minutes.......


----------



## intersezioni

Calatrava Bridge and new HS Trains station in Italy in Reggio Emilia. 
Highway A1 Milan - Naples



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-u-ykfE7rE


----------



## Cori

Busfotodotnl said:


> Someone here who was in Pistoia yesterday and had the oppurtunity to take some pictures of the V250's over there?











Detail of a case of electric trains V250 FYRA Dutch railways in working in the workshops Ansaldo Breda.









Cockpit still incomplete electric trains High speed railway V250 FYRA Antilles. Pistoia 06/04/2013

http://www.railspotters.eu kay:

Link o Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marc-sch/sets/72157619242711875/with/3598669016/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marc-sch/sets/72157619209389157/with/3598669016/


----------



## M-NL

That brake lever continues to look weird to me. Also the cockpit arrangment isn't even close to the EUDD-PLUS recommendations, even though that was originally intended. For instance the traction/e-brake controller should be on the left and ep-brake controller on the right.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Cori said:


> Cockpit still incomplete electric trains High speed railway V250 FYRA Antilles. Pistoia 06/04/2013



Is that Comic Sans????


----------



## Suburbanist

Silly_Walks said:


> Is that Comic Sans????


Looks like it is.

It reads "Please don't touch it".


----------



## Silly_Walks

Figures they don't want anyone touching it... it might break 


Anyway, you can't possibly keep defending AnsaldoBreda now that we know they use Comic Sans!


----------



## Suburbanist

Silly_Walks said:


> Anyway, you can't possibly keep defending AnsaldoBreda now that we know they use Comic Sans!


I agree that is not the best display of professionalism.


----------



## Cori

Busfotodotnl said:


> Someone here who was in Pistoia yesterday and had the oppurtunity to take some pictures of the V250's over there?





Suburbanist said:


> I agree that is not the best display of professionalism.


Due to A public visit to the factory workers have put that sign to avoid damage. In fact the dashboard is covered by scotch


----------



## Ocean Railroader

I rode on the new section on my trip to Italy between Venice and Rome and the bulk of it is like going in a giant subway tunnel for miles and miles underground which was kind of boring. But the trains where packed with people which was a good sign.


----------



## Suburbanist

Ocean Railroader said:


> I rode on the new section on my trip to Italy between Venice and Rome and the bulk of it is like going in a giant subway tunnel for miles and miles underground which was kind of boring. But the trains where packed with people which was a good sign.


do you mean between Bologna and Firenze?

Amazing stuff, isn't it? Too bad only the Swiss get credit for the Gotthard project. I think the new tunnels under the Apennines are equally impressive due to their challenging geology, seismic activity and extreme water pressure.


----------



## narkelion

Ocean Railroader said:


> I rode on the new section on my trip to Italy between Venice and Rome and the bulk of it is like going in a giant subway tunnel for miles and miles underground which was kind of boring. But the trains where packed with people which was a good sign.


Yes, between Roma and Bologna there are almost half the kilometers underground. Exspecially between Firenze and Bologna, where of the total 78 km, 73,3 are underground.:nuts::lol:


----------



## Coccodrillo

Some statistics:

*Tunnels between Bologna and Florence:*

Bologna underground section ~5000 (from main station)
Pianoro 10843
Sadurano 3859
Monte Bibele 9243
Raticosa 10436
Scheggianico 3556
Firenzuola 15280
Borgo Rinzelli 717
Morticine 693
Vaglia 18716

A total of 73343 m excluding Bologna city tunnel (73 km out of 78).

The summit of the line is inside Raticosa tunnel.

*Main tunnels between Firenze and Rome:*

San Donato 10954
tunnel chain before Arezzo ~7500
Castiglione 7391
Orte 9371 (Y-shaped, including an underground junction)
Sant'Oreste 5710 (part of a tunnel chain of more than 15 km underground)

*Tunnels between Carnia and state border near Tarvisio:*

Campiolo-Monte Palis 5575
Zuc dal Bor 9222
Le Piche/San Rocco 4057
San Leopoldo 5716
Malborghetto 8067
Camporosso 6934
Tarvisio 1052
Leila 3269

43892 m in 54,6 km

The tunnels between Andora and Bordighera (*Genova-Ventimiglia-France line*) account for around 30 km in 48 km (of which one of 13,1 km, including San Remo underground station, and many of ~3 km). Another planned section should have ~25 km underground in ~32 km (longest tunnel over 10 km). This means 55 km in tunnel out of 80, but I don't have exact figures.

The Genova-La Spezia, Bologna-Firenze (non-HS) and Napoli-Reggio Calabria also have many long or consecutive tunnels, but none over 10 km (except one of 18,5 km on the Bologna-Firenze, second longest for many decades after the Simplon Tunnel, also half in Italy).

(by the way, I never imagined I would have liked one post from Suburbanist written in the rail forum, one day!)

For some statistics look here: http://www.lotsberg.net/ (lengths on that site are usually quite correct, but planned opening dates often are not)


----------



## Sunfuns

^^Excellent post

By the way I have a feeling that Italian high speed rail system has attracted comparably little attention outside Italy. People write a lot about Spain and France, but there has been a lot of progress in Italy as well.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

A couple of pics of Reggio Emilia HS station (aka Stazione Medio Padana)



tool2106 said:


> Me le hanno mandate via FB, prendete e godetene tutti:
> 
> Credits @ Roberto Olivari:





tarcinto said:


>


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Some pics of BOLOGNA HS underground station



brick84 said:


> Vero, non male.
> Però i marciapiedi mi sembrano un po' strettini...
> 
> 
> 
> Riporto alcune foto in modo che rimangano:


----------



## Harshada

*Re : ITALY | High Speed Rail*

Fantastic look and structure of the railway station.


----------



## intersezioni

Mamma mia let's start with the jealousies, the station is bad, Calatrava is boring, the materials are cheap, train lines are useless,disabled people remain trapped on the tracks, ecc...... always say the same words against my land, just read the old posts! we lack the mafia pizza and mandolin and stereotypes and malice against Italy are always served! You have only inferiority complex!
I bet if it had been built in Sweden would be magnificent! You are the usual jealous!


----------



## SAS 16

^^I actually like it a lot in the interior, it looks fantastic. My only dislike is the exterior as i think the façade is too homogenous (i would have like more diferences in the overall façade) anyway congratulations for developing your hsr network from spain :cheers:


----------



## intersezioni

SAS 16 said:


> ^^I actually like it a lot in the interior, it looks fantastic. My only dislike is the exterior as i think the façade is too homogenous (i would have like more diferences in the overall façade) anyway congratulations for developing your hsr network from spain :cheers:


Thanks!


----------



## narkelion

intersezioni, actually joseph1951 is way too italian...:lol::lol:

BTW, I really like it.


----------



## intersezioni

narkelion said:


> intersezioni, actually joseph1951 is way too italian...:lol::lol:
> 
> BTW, I really like it.



Peggio, mi fa incazzare ancora di piu', se non ci vanno bene le cose muoviamo il culo dal seggiolone e le andiamo a dire in faccia ai nostri amministratori e politici locali invece di sputtanare il nostro paese gratis sul forum internazionali al buio delle nostre camerette! I Francesi o Tedeschi non sputtanano il loro paese e i problemi li hanno anche loro (ps guardate il nuovo aeroporto di Berlino !!!)
Smettiamola e un po di orgoglio!
for english version used google translate or you studied the Italian!


----------



## narkelion

intersezioni said:


> Peggio, mi fa incazzare ancora di piu'!
> 
> for english version use google translate!


*censored*

:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Glodenox

I'm not a fan of Calatrava stations and that one is no exception. I didn't like the one that was built in Liège either as they seem to care more about aesthetics and less about the people actually using the stations.
I like the Bologna underground station though. There's only so much you can do to them to improve their looks as they're in a very confined space and the end result there seems nice to me


----------



## tunnel owl

GENIUS LOCI said:


> I'm afraid the underground (or even pre-metro) project is not scheduled anymore.
> 
> They're now just talking of a trolleybus line hno:


Bologna would have deserved it, anyway nice station

Kind regards


----------



## willele

intersezioni said:


> Peggio, mi fa incazzare ancora di piu', se non ci vanno bene le cose muoviamo il culo dal seggiolone e le andiamo a dire in faccia ai nostri amministratori e politici locali invece di sputtanare il nostro paese gratis sul forum internazionali al buio delle nostre camerette! I Francesi o Tedeschi non sputtanano il loro paese e i problemi li hanno anche loro (ps guardate il nuovo aeroporto di Berlino !!!)
> Smettiamola e un po di orgoglio!
> for english version used google translate or you studied the Italian!


Sono d'accordissimo,....per non parlare dei db velaro 407 che dovevano entrare in servizio nel 2009 e forse..... dico forse entrano alla fine del 2013!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## KingNick

intersezioni said:


> Mamma mia let's start with the jealousies, the station is bad, Calatrava is boring, the materials are cheap, train lines are useless,disabled people remain trapped on the tracks, ecc...... always say the same words against my land, just read the old posts! we lack the mafia pizza and mandolin and stereotypes and malice against Italy are always served! You have only inferiority complex!
> I bet if it had been built in Sweden would be magnificent! You are the usual jealous!


Look up my posts in the Ground Zero Traffic Hub thread and you will find exactly the same statements. Calatrava is easily among the least creative architects out there. Inferiority complex? Why would that be?

Parlando di inferiority complex: Ma guardate ai tedeschi con il nuovo aeroporto di Berlino... DB 407...


----------



## jumping_jack

del


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I like the idea of Italy getting some signature stations from famous starchitects. what makes ppl like Calatavra or Zara Hadid great is that they have a personal style that works out irrespective of the place they are stick in.

For me, this is the sign of highest greatness of an architect: be able to design your own thing, with extreme freedom and very few aesthetic constraints on making it fit some regional style or local style (or buildings nearby, which doesn't apply here as the station is a greenfield site).

Now the issue of not having disable facilities is outrageous if true.


----------



## joseph1951

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I like the idea of Italy getting some signature stations from famous starchitects. what makes ppl like Calatavra or Zara Hadid great is that they have a personal style that works out irrespective of the place they are stick in.
> 
> For me, this is the sign of highest greatness of an architect: be able to design your own thing, with extreme freedom and very few aesthetic constraints on making it fit some regional style or local style (or buildings nearby, which doesn't apply here as the station is a greenfield site).
> 
> Now the issue of not having disable facilities is outrageous if true.


An infrastructure must also be useful. If it is also beautiful is an extra bonus, but this exta requirement is not vital to its purpose, it is a mere bonus. 

Also, an infrastructure of this type must be not too difficult to build. Some of the Calatrava railway stations and bridges were found to be difficult to build and/ or impractical to use.

This station is a mere covering of a section of a railway viaduct, which differs from the usual box -type enclosure, for its "wawing roof". 

The need and practicality for this "beeetrootfield station in the middle of nowhere" can be questioned. 

As far as one can see form the pictures pubblished, the materials used for its construction seem to be of poor quality. 

The region has very hot summers and quite cold winters, and the transparent roof could make this station very unconfortable, during the summer and winter months...


----------



## joseph1951

willele said:


> Sono d'accordissimo,....per non parlare dei *db velaro 407 *che dovevano entrare in servizio nel 2009 e forse..... dico forse *entrano alla fine del 2013*!!!!!!!!!!!


If you are referring to the 10 ICE e320 which Siemens is building for the Eurotunnel they will be in revenue service around 2017.

But this has nothing to do with the topic which is: Reggio Emilia Calatrava HS Beetroot Station, in the Middle of nowhere".

Anyways if the problem of the rain pouring on the station pavement cannot be solved, I am sure that Trenitalia will be only too happy to provide the V.I.P Frecciarossa (Red Arrow) High Speed Passengers with inflatable gondolas. 

In this manner, the VIP Frecciarossa passengers will be able to smoothly sail through the entire station.


----------



## intersezioni

These are real problems of construction and maintenance:

Paris, France:









Germany ( inferiority complex for my friend KingNick )

The more serious about high-speed rail crash in Europe:









Newly inaugurated problems with glasses and disengage broke and water infiltration










eccccc....

Italian first to speak bad of your country and do not reflect the accuracy of this world, not even in other countries!


----------



## Buno

joseph1951 said:


> As far as one can see form the pictures pubblished, the materials used for its construction seem to be of poor quality.


From pictures? Are you serious?


----------



## joseph1951

Buno said:


> From pictures? Are you serious?


Crack floor tiles are clearly visibile on the undergound station floor.


----------



## Suburbanist

intersezioni said:


> Italian first to speak bad of your country and do not reflect the accuracy of this world, not even in other countries!


Please, stop the drama.

Local forumers are usually the first to point problems on their own systems on this infrastructure forumers, be them roads or railways. Usually they are even the most vocal critics because they deal with the systems on a frequent basis.


----------



## Suburbanist

El_Greco said:


> So how far in advance you need to book your tickets in Germany to get the best deal? Here its 7 weeks.


Tickets in Germany open for sale 92 days before departure.


----------



## Coccodrillo

SAS 16 said:


> Is italy building high speed line from milan to venecia? if yes when it is expected to open?


The section between Treviglio and Brescia is under construction, and might open before the end of the decade. 25 kV AC + ETCS, this time.


----------



## javimix19

Hi, I read on this forum that Italy is building the section from Venice to Milan, how many sections of high speed rail are constructing Italy? Is there any web page with that sections? (I don't mind if is in italian, I speak spanish and I think that is understable)

Is the section between Milan and Lyon under construction?


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ The line between Torino and Milano has been opened for more than 3 years already. The works on Torino-Lyon are, at the moment, mostly concentrated on exploratory works on the base tunnel.


----------



## javimix19

^^
Yes, sorry, I wanted to say the section between Turin and Lyon, thank you for the info.


----------



## Suburbanist

javimix19 said:


> ^^
> Yes, sorry, I wanted to say the section between Turin and Lyon, thank you for the info.


You can find more info about high speed projects here (not a very good site but still...): http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e4ae8c3e13e0a110VgnVCM10000080a3e90aRCRD

If the link doesn't work, go here ( http://www.rfi.it/ ) then click "Rete e Territorio" and then you will find the sub-menu with infrastructure information .


----------



## javimix19

^^
Thank you for the page, I checked and I'm surprising with Napoli-Bari high speed section and sicily sections. I didn't know that in Sicily were a sections of high speed rail.
The section to Bari is some rare, because there are sections already constructed and the other sections are only in planning stage. Why?


----------



## Suburbanist

javimix19 said:


> ^^
> Thank you for the page, I checked and I'm surprising with Napoli-Bari high speed section and sicily sections. I didn't know that in Sicily were a sections of high speed rail.
> The section to Bari is some rare, because there are sections already constructed and the other sections are only in planning stage. Why?


Both cases are upgrades sections with some new tunnels and re-alignments, not greenfield high-speed lines.


----------



## narkelion

javimix19 said:


> ^^
> Thank you for the page, I checked and I'm surprising with Napoli-Bari high speed section and sicily sections. I didn't know that in Sicily were a sections of high speed rail.
> The section to Bari is some rare, because there are sections already constructed and the other sections are only in planning stage. Why?


The line between Napoli and Bari has already exists, but it isn't HS. They are upgrading it, but it is quite difficult, because this line must go over (or under :lol Appennini Mountains.
Old line (mostly with single rail) has a very winding path (there's why they use tilting trains ETR600), so they have to do a really hard work of re-construction. 
That's why works are pretty slow.

The parts that are already built were the easiest to adapt, and now they're planning/building the hardest ones.


----------



## joseph1951

javimix19 said:


> ^^
> Thank you for the page, I checked and I'm surprising with Napoli-Bari high speed section and sicily sections. I didn't know that in Sicily were a sections of high speed rail.
> The section to Bari is some rare, because there are sections already constructed and the other sections are only in planning stage. Why?


There are some discussions on the italian SSC section:


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=484438&page=20

ando also on Ferrovie on Line, 
this is the thread on FOL relating to the section Caserta -Foggia of the Bari- Naples line.

http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17534


----------



## Axelferis

*Netherlands rejects high speed train italians:
*

french article
http://www.challenges.fr/entreprise...=widget&utm_campaign=obclick&obref=obinsource

you can translate via google


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ there are already 3 threads about that in this forum


----------



## javimix19

I read an article in internet that Italy in the last 10-12 years is boosted their infraestructures, not only HSR, but also motorways and conventional railways.
Since Italy is in recession (like Spain ) How the government is planned to pay all of these new investments? With more debt?
In Spain the government is adding more debt to finish some projects an stopping others.


----------



## Rayancito

It will be helpfull if anyone can post here the map of "nodo di Bolonia", on the other hand i will love to have an update of the construction of the Reggia Emila AV station. Thanks folks!


----------



## Suburbanist

If you go a handulf of pages back on this thread you will see some good coverage of the opening of the station with pictures.


----------



## jonasry

Italy and Switzerland are on track to restore the severed rail connections within the next few years. The first positive sign is that first class passengers will be able to use the stations lounges in both countries.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

..


legolego said:


>


----------



## KingNick

:drool:

What a wonderful train!


----------



## K_

Has a complete Frecciarossa 1000 been delivered already?


----------



## narkelion

K_ said:


> Has a complete Frecciarossa 1000 been delivered already?


From what I know, no.


----------



## joseph1951

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The strait bridge in "incognito". They've done some preparatory works, there is some lack of money to push ahead. All planning-and-drawing has been complete.
> 
> They need some € 4 billion on public budget moneys + around 3 from private partners to build the bridge and everything related to it. Some works like road junctions in Messina have been completed already.
> 
> I expect the bridge to see heavy construction only after 2018, sadly. But the bridge is essential to the progress and development of Sicilia and Southernmost Italy shouldn't get the shaft with ferries (!!!) over a connection that is less than 4km wide.


No Rail/Road Bridge over the strait of Messina wil be built at least fot the next 30 years. In about 60 year of planning they did not managed to produce for the government serious documentation relating to the technical and financial feasibility of the said project.

Baffoons!!!!!!!

The project was initially awarded for 3.9 billion euros to a Consortium led by Impregilo a Company very close to Mr Berlusconi. After 12 months the cost of construction of the bridge had already soared to 8, 5 billion euros.


----------



## joseph1951

narkelion said:


> HS trains need to be... High Speed. :lol: Modena is just 15 minutes from Bologna with the regio trains, there is no need for a HS train to stop there.


Bologna- Modena is about 37 km long.

In the old line line time travel is:
Regionale/Regionale veloce 26-31 minutes

Frecciabianca (which TI considers it to be * a high speed train* and it is expensive) 18 ~21 minutes)

Intercities (the few left) and which are subsidised by the state: journey times 18-19 minutes.


Now 21 minuts of tha Frecciabianca for a journey of 37 kms, for me is not a high speed journey.
considering also the fact that when the _old line _line very busy the trains were faster and the ETR450 was covering the Journey from Bologna to Reegigo Emilia in just above 20 minutes. The section Modena - Reggio Emilia was covered at an average sped of 188 km/h.

In 1938, in this now "old line" *the journey from Bologna to Milan was made in **68 minutes *. *Now it takes 65 minutes for the same journey *but on the new super- high- speed line!


----------



## makita09

^^ The curse of the modern railways (worldwide) is defensive driving and defensively padded timetables. (Actually, they're a good thing, but don't help point to point fast timings). That train in the 30s was probably still doing 150km/h as it entered the platforms at Milan. (I exaggerate).


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ The railways were much emptier as well, and the speed limits over switches were higher, never mind accidents or risks.


----------



## javimix19

Hi, one question about Bologna-Florencia high speed railway:

- I read in Wikipedia that line is mostly underground, 78.5 km long and includes 73.8 km of tunnels, 3.6 km on embankment or in cutting and 1.1 km on viaduct. Wow, this is one of the most spectacular man made engineering. Congratulations first of all.

Why is most of the line underground?

- I read also that the total cost of the line was 5.2 billion euros (67m euros per km) Is this very high cost? How much it cost a normal HSR per km?

I'm very impressed of this line when I read that more than 95% of it's recorride is underground.


----------



## Suburbanist

javimix19 said:


> Why is most of the line underground?


Because it crosses the mountain range that splits the Italian peninsula in two, the Apennines.

Take a look here:

http://goo.gl/maps/9Ukim


This is the 3rd Bologna-Firenze trunk line. The first one was built on the 1860s century as a typically mountain railway. The second one was opened in the 1930s and already had a couple of long tunnels, including the Apennino tunnel with around 17km length. Then there is the high-speed railway.


----------



## Coccodrillo

javimix19 said:


> Why is most of the line underground?
> 
> - I read also that the total cost of the line was 5.2 billion euros (67m euros per km) Is this very high cost? How much it cost a normal HSR per km?
> 
> I'm very impressed of this line when I read that more than 95% of it's recorride is underground.


The Bologna-Firenze HSL is mostly underground because they wanted it to be straight and with no high slopes (maximum slope is 15 per mil or 1.5%). Had they built with higher slopes it would have had less km in tunnel (but not much less).

The second Bologna-Firenze has two long tunnels, 18.5 and 7.2 km.

5.2 billion euro is not that much for this kind of line.


----------



## Suburbanist

Since Bologna is much more important as the biggest transportation hub in Italy than on an O/D itself, I keep wondering whether they should have used the whole AV/AC project to build a completely new station on a better high-speed alingment alignment with higher train and passenger output.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Because Bologna station is already in a good position...

However they might have built a faster line for no-stop trains, and an underground station with more tracks and accessible also to/from the Adriatic line.

Also the new Firenze Belfiore station will have only 4 tracks, but it will be located far away from any of the existing stations.


----------



## gramercy

the Genoa - Sanremo section has been, is being replaced by tunnels
what is the max speed they designed this new section for?
and what's going on with the Genoa-Pisa section?


----------



## Coccodrillo

gramercy said:


> the Genoa - Sanremo section has been, is being replaced by tunnels


Finale Ligure-Bordighera excluded these stations to be precise (Bordighera is the third last station before the border).

Genoa-Savona-Finale Ligure has been doubled in tunnels up until somewhere around 1977.



gramercy said:


> what is the max speed they designed this new section for?


As far I know, around 180 km/h (Finale Ligure-Ospedaletti). However the time reduction given by the higher speed may be lost due to the fact that there are less stations (11 rather than 20 between Finale Ligure and Bordighera included) and that the new stations are usually more distant from the city centers.



gramercy said:


> and what's going on with the Genoa-Pisa section?


The section Sestri Levante-La Spezia has been doubled in tunnels up until around 1940, like the Genoa-Savona-Finale Ligure section speed are lower than in the more recent section (maybe around 100-130 km/h?), but most stations there were rebuilt exactly where they were or not too distant from the old stations.

Tunnel statistics:
Sestri Levante-La Spezia, 39 km of line and 30 km of tunnels.
Genoa-Savona-Finale Ligure, ~60 km of line and ~28 km of tunnels.
I don't have exact figures for the remaining section but Genova-Ventimiglia when completed should have around 85 km of tunnels in 147 km, or 58% of the line (longest tunnels around 13, 10, 7 and 6 km long).

There are no plans for a new line Genoa-Pisa.


----------



## Roy_Batty

I've been reading some stuff about Italy's High Speed Rail System, and I have some questions:

- How exactly was ItaloTreno from NTV allowed to enter the competition? I mean, I suppose this private company runs through the tracks of Trenitalia, the goverment's rail subsidary, right? Do they pay an special rent? Does the Italian Government published a tender for lets say 30 years of concession? Can other private train companies put their own HST on the same tracks?

- About the Padova-Milano line, is there an estimate date where the line will be opened?

- About the Padova-Bologna and Verona-Bologna lines, since these only run at 250 km/h, I guess these are not new lines but only upgraded, right?

Thank you very much!


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Trenitalia doesn't own the tracks. RFI, another state company, does.

RFI charges train operating companies (the biggest of which is Trenitalia) fees for use of infrastructure. Other companies can operate non-subsidized services and high-speed services. OBB and DB operate trains in Italy as well. So does SNCF.


----------



## joseph1951

Roy_Batty said:


> I've been reading some stuff about Italy's High Speed Rail System, and I have some questions:
> 
> - How exactly was ItaloTreno from NTV allowed to enter the competition? I mean, I suppose this private company runs through the tracks of Trenitalia, the goverment's rail subsidary, right? Do they pay an special rent? Does the Italian Government published a tender for lets say 30 years of concession? Can other private train companies put their own HST on the same tracks?
> 
> - About the Padova-Milano line, is there an estimate date where the line will be opened?
> 
> - About the Padova-Bologna and Verona-Bologna lines, since these only run at* 250 km/h*, I guess these are not new lines but only upgraded, right?
> 
> Thank you very much!


The Padova -Bologna line has some short stretches which allow 180 km/h runnings.

Journey time with the fastest trains: 57 minutes . (Line length 123 km) 

The Bologna -Verona line has ben recently doubled and upgraded with a desgin top speed of 200km/h.
However, due to the new train control system failure, on some sections there are speed restrictions to 150 km/h or less.

Journey time with the fastest trains: 50 minutes . (Line length 114 km)


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## Roy_Batty

^^ Ok, soy thery are not really high-speed.



Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Trenitalia doesn't own the tracks. RFI, another state company, does.
> 
> RFI charges train operating companies (the biggest of which is Trenitalia) fees for use of infrastructure. Other companies can operate non-subsidized services and high-speed services. OBB and DB operate trains in Italy as well. So does SNCF.


Mmm, that's interesting. I thought Italy's model was something similar to the one implemented in Germany with the Deutsche Netze that belongs to the Deutsche Bahn.

So I guess Trenitalia is totally independent from Rete Ferreoviaria Italiana and even they have to pay a fee for the use of tracks? About the subsidy, what do you exaclty mean? Is Trenitaly a subsidized service for the users? Doesn't that make the competition between private and public companies unfair?

Thanks!


----------



## joseph1951

Roy_Batty said:


> ^^ Ok, soy thery are not really high-speed.
> 
> 
> Mmm, that's interesting. I thought Italy's model was something similar to the one implemented in Germany with the Deutsche Netze that belongs to the Deutsche Bahn.
> 1-
> So I guess Trenitalia is *totally independent* from Rete Ferreoviaria Italiana and even they have to pay a fee for the use of tracks?
> 
> 2-
> About the subsidy, what do you exaclty mean?
> 3-
> Is Trenitaly a subsidized service for the users?
> 4-
> Doesn't that make the competition between private and public companies unfair?
> 
> Thanks!


1-
No, it is not. Trenitala is a private company totally owned by a single investor : the Italian Ministry for transport and infrastructure.
The Trenitalia Chairman, Mr Mauro Moretti, is also the Chairman of the entire FS Group. (Trenitalia HS Division Trenitalia Cargo, Trenitalia Regional Division, RFI, Gradndi Stazioni SpA, etc) 

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrovie_dello_Stato_Italiane
2-
Most of  Trenitalia services are subsidised by the State and by the Regions. In order to obtain state susbsidies for the regional services the Regions were compelled to sign the service agreements with Trenitalia and secondary regional partners chosen by Trenitalia. These agreements were signed by the Regions , trenitalia and trenitalia secondary partners They will be in force for 6 years and they will renewable for another six years. They give Trenitalia pre-emptive rights.

3-
Partly , allegedly for the regional and national non-HS trains. Assets (buildings, lands, rolling stocks, etc) have been conferred to TI at zero and/or nominal value. In turn , in the last few years, Trenitalia has sold about 28,000 units of rolling stock which, previously, had been assingned to Trenitalia as totally depreciated assets.Therefore they had no value, at least for the point of view of the accounts. 

TI Chairman, Mr Moretti calls this type of operations as "self financing" some experts call it "assett stripping".

4-
Yes.


----------



## K_

Roy_Batty said:


> Mmm, that's interesting. I thought Italy's model was something similar to the one implemented in Germany with the Deutsche Netze that belongs to the Deutsche Bahn.


The German model is different as well. "Deutsche Bahn" is the holding, which is divided in DB Netz, DB Bahn and DB schenker. DB Bahn, and DB Schenker run trains, and pay access fees to DB Netz.

What the EU required was simply that all railway companies got access on equal terms. So the countries had to set up a system where the incumbent was charged for usage of the infrastructure in a more or less transparent way, and other companies could request access on the same terms. This does not require an entire separation of infrastructure and exploitation, but does require transparency in the way the different divisions within a state owned railway charge each other for services. 

Some countries went for complete separation (The UK, the Netherlands), others went for separate divisions within state holdings.


----------



## Buno

K_ said:


> The German model is different as well. "Deutsche Bahn" is the holding, which is divided in DB Netz, DB Bahn and DB schenker. DB Bahn, and DB Schenker run trains, and pay access fees to DB Netz.


It's the same in Italy.

' The structure of the Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane Group originates from the reorganisation process begun in 2000. The current organisation is that of an industrial Group with a Parent company, Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane SpA, which heads the Operating Companies in the various sectors of the chain and other companies servicing and supporting Group operations. The companies have their own specific corporate character and benefit from managerial independence in achieving business objectives.,

http://www.fsitaliane.it/fsi-en/GROUP/Group-Companies/Group-Companies

Trenitalia, that runs the passengers trains, pays to RFi.


----------



## gramercy

thx for the answers

is the Pontebbana Udine-Tarvisio capable of 160 kph or more?


----------



## Roy_Batty

Thank your for your replies, you have helped me a lot understanding these topics. Still, two things I didn't quite get:



joseph1951 said:


> Partly , allegedly for the regional and national non-HS trains. Assets (buildings, lands, rolling stocks, etc) have been conferred to TI at zero and/or nominal value. In turn , in the last few years, Trenitalia has sold about 28,000 units of rolling stock which, previously, had been assingned to Trenitalia as totally depreciated assets.Therefore they had no value, at least for the point of view of the accounts.


Maybe I don't have much inside in these type of matters, as I didn't really understand this. I mean, one thing is "asset stripping" where a certain group buys a certain underachieving company for a low price... and then sell all the assets, resulting in a certain amount of "evil" profit. Understood that, but what does that have to do with the subsidy offered to the passangers?



K_ said:


> What the EU required was simply that all railway companies got access on equal terms. So the countries had to set up a system where the incumbent was charged for usage of the infrastructure in a more or less transparent way, and other companies could request access on the same terms. This does not require an entire separation of infrastructure and exploitation, but does require transparency in the way the different divisions within a state owned railway charge each other for services.


Ahh, so basically all these state owned companies paying to others state owned companies is a regulation established by the European Union in order to promote transparency and the possibility for competition in the market? Can you give me some background of this regulation? Name? Date?

Thanks!!!


----------



## KingNick

gramercy said:


> thx for the answers
> 
> is the Pontebbana Udine-Tarvisio capable of 160 kph or more?


Design speed is 180 km/h. It is a disgrace though how Italy treats the railway after investing a shitload of money.


----------



## joseph1951

KingNick said:


> Design speed is 180 km/h. It is a disgrace though how Italy treats the railway after investing a shitload of money.


Yes.


----------



## superdupont

Buno said:


> It's the same in Italy. .


yep, only the SNCF (French National Railroad Company) is a fully state-owned railways company in Europe..


----------



## hans280

superdupont said:


> yep, only the SNCF (French National Railroad Company) is a fully state-owned railways company in Europe..


Sorry, I don't get this. SNCF is certainly state-owned, but so are many other railway companies in Europe. Unlike DB and FS the French State has split the track ownership from SNCF and rolled it (together with an unmanageable debt) into another state-owned company called RFF. 

It should be said, though, that SNCF and RFF are not totally independent. For example, RFF is obliged to by its track maintenance services from SNCF without tendering. As far as I understand this was a demand by SNCF's trade unions. :nuts:


----------



## MarcVD

hans280 said:


> Sorry, I don't get this. SNCF is certainly state-owned, but so are many other railway companies in Europe. Unlike DB and FS the French State has split the track ownership from SNCF and rolled it (together with an unmanageable debt) into another state-owned company called RFF.


And SNCF and RFF are most probably going to re-merge into one single company very soon.


----------



## superdupont

MarcVD said:


> And SNCF and RFF are most probably going to re-merge into one single company very soon.


 yep, they don't like the EU DiRECTIVES....


----------



## superdupont

hans280 said:


> has split the track ownership from SNCF and rolled into another state-owned company called RFF.


 that is not true.. and RFF it doesn't exist anymore... dear HANS... no, technically.. TRENITALIA S.P.A and DB A.G. are 'mixed' (private and state) company were (actually) the major shareholder is a state...and they split THE COMPANIES in two branch. ACCORDING TO EU DIRECTIVES.. ->SORRY MY ENGLISH


----------



## hans280

superdupont said:


> that is not true.. and RFF it doesn't exist anymore... dear HANS... no, technically.. TRENITALIA S.P.A and DB A.G. are 'mixed' (private and state) company were (actually) the major shareholder is a state...and they split THE COMPANIES in two branch. ACCORDING TO EU DIRECTIVES.. ->SORRY MY ENGLISH


I have no objections to your English. But I have big problems with some of the "information" you offer. On what do you base your assertion that RFF doesn't exist anymore? I don't follow corporate France on a daily basis, but only last month when the so-called Duron Report (on future rail investment) was presented, the specialised press moaned about the further burdening of RFF with debt. Also, their website is still alive (rff.fr). 

Also, as far as I know both Trenitalia (or, at least, FS) remains wholly state owned? What is more, I am certain that DB is state owned, because a planned partial privatisation was put on hold in 2011 amid much discussion in the German press. Both companies are incorporated as joint stock companies, that is true, but the state (in both cases?) owns all the shares.


----------



## superdupont

hans280 said:


> I have no objections to your English. But I have big problems with some of the "information" you offer. On what do you base your assertion that RFF doesn't exist anymore? I don't follow corporate France on a daily basis, but only last month when the so-called Duron Report (on future rail investment) was presented, the specialised press moaned about the further burdening of RFF with debt. Also, their website is still alive (rff.fr).
> 
> Also, as far as I know both Trenitalia (or, at least, FS) remains wholly state owned? What is more, I am certain that DB is state owned, because a planned partial privatisation was put on hold in 2011 amid much discussion in the German press. Both companies are incorporated as joint stock companies, that is true, but the state (in both cases?) owns all the shares.


 io sto parlando dal punto di vista GIURIDICO, la comunità europea ha dato delle direttive, ovvero ha spinto per un processo di 'parziale' privatizzazione delle società ferroviarie nazionali, bene, in questo caso sia trenitalia che DB hanno ATTUATO tali direttive! tu mi chiederai.. come? SEMPLICE! hanno cambiato l'assetto statuario delle società, diventando, nel caso di Trenitalia una *S.P.A.* (*Società Per Azioni*) e nel caso tedesco di DB una* A.G*. (*Aktiengesellschaft)* poi sono state separate le società in due parti distinte.. parte servizi e parte infrastrutture!
(TRENITALIA *S.P.A* - RFI. *S.P.A*) e
(DB *AG* -DBNETZ *AG*)
IN FRANCIA INVECE LE SNCF SONO DELLE E.P.I.C (*Établissement public à caractère industriel et commercial) *e il loro *ASSETTO SOCIETARIO È RIMASTO INVARIATO*, oltre questo, il 14 novembre 2012 c'è stata la La riunificazione di SNCF-Infra e RFF (rispettivamente, le società di trasporto e dell’infrastruttura) e la riforma delle ferrovie francesi annunciata dal Ministro dei Trasporti  Frederic Cuvillier. In pratica questa separazione FITTIZIA è stata definitivamente *accantonata* dallo Stato Francese il quale non è azionista delle SNCF ma* espressione UNICA* nel quadro giuridico francese delle SNCF.
in parole povere.. lo *stato francese* e *le SNCF* *sono LA STESSA COSA*

-- mi dispiace ma non ho una conoscenza così elevata della lingua inglese da tradurre questo messaggio, quindi ho scritto il mio messaggio in italiano 

http://www.ferpress.it/?p=81209 (in italian only)


----------



## M-NL

superdupont said:


> yep, they don't like the EU DiRECTIVES....


No, the EU directives merely state that the responsibility for the distribution of the network capacity over its users, cannot be one of those users. So there no need to split track ownership.
Despite this many countries have actually done a split, but have since found out that that causes a lot of extra bureaucracy.


----------



## superdupont

M-NL said:


> No, the EU directives merely state that the responsibility for the distribution of the network capacity over its users, cannot be one of those users. So there no need to split track ownership.


i don't think so..

– 
----->>>>>> Direttiva 91/440/Cee

, dispone la netta separazione 
del sistema ferroviario dallo St
ato e, all’interno del siste-
ma ferroviario, delle attività di trasporto da quelle di ge-
stione dell’infrastruttura; si prevede, inoltre, un primo nu-
cleo di liberalizzazione che concede libero accesso all’in-
frastruttura ferroviaria ai raggruppamenti internazionali di 
imprese che affettuano il trasporto combinato
9
; 
– 
Direttiva 95/18/Ce
, introduce il concetto di licenza 
valida in tutta la comunità per i servizi liberalizzati e ne 
stabilisce i requisiti per il rilascio; 
– 
Direttiva 95/19/Ce
, esamina la necessità di istituire in 
ogni stato membro un organo preposto all’assegnazione 
delle capacità su base non discriminatoria. 
ETC...
http://www.giappichelli.it/stralcio/3481589.pdf
www.ferpress.it/?p=81209
comunque.. ti sarei grato se potessi confutare le tue affermazioni con qualche fonte attendibile.. grazie... (source please...)


M-NL said:


> Despite this *many countries* have actually done a split,* but have since found out that that causes a lot of extra bureaucracy*.


hno:


----------



## hans280

superdupont said:


> In pratica questa separazione FITTIZIA è stata definitivamente *accantonata* dallo Stato Francese il quale non è azionista delle SNCF ma* espressione UNICA* nel quadro giuridico francese delle SNCF.


Yes, in terms of operational efficiency this is indeed a very silly construct. It was (in my view) done for purely political reasons - and following a script that is sadly familiar here in France: the government did precisely what I wanted, but told the population that "we only do it because those bastards in Brussels force us!" In this case, the French state used the functional separation of SNCF and RFF to lift a massive debt out of the railway company, in a way which made it difficult for third parties to allege subsidization.


----------



## superdupont

hans280 said:


> Yes, in terms of operational efficiency this is indeed a very silly construct. It was (in my view) done for purely political reasons - and following a script that is sadly familiar here in France: the government did precisely what I wanted, but told the population that "we only do it because those bastards in Brussels force us!" In this case, the French state used the functional separation of SNCF and RFF to lift a massive debt out of the railway company, in a way which made it difficult for third parties to allege subsidization.


 allora, per quanto mi riguarda io sono contro la liberalizzazione di un monopolio naturale come le ferrovie, ma, visto che siamo tutti nella UE e visto che la UE ha deciso di perseguire questa (secondo me..folle) idea di liberalismo estremo.. allora credo che sia molto importante che le regole siano uguali per tutti.. altrimenti si rischia di cadere in particolarismi.. che generano asimmetrie pericolose tra gli europei.. e questo secondo me non è giusto.. asimmetrie che alla lunga potrebbero anche causare delle incomprensioni pericolose tra gli stati le grandi corporazioni e i cittadini europei stessi..
cittadini che si sentono sempre più isolati in questo merdoso neo-feudalesimo industriale europeo del terzo millennio...
...poi scusa è.. ma.. quando una società è praticamente il braccio armato di uno stato nel cuore dell'Europa.. cosa gliene può fregare dei debiti...? e soprattutto..cosa gliene frega della concorrenza..?
una società del genere avrà sempre la 'premura' di scegliere gli stessi fornitori 'nazionali' di materiale rotabile e avrà sempre il modo di nascondere i propri debiti ecc..


----------



## hans280

superdupont said:


> allora, per quanto mi riguarda io sono contro la liberalizzazione di un monopolio naturale come le ferrovie, ma, visto che siamo tutti nella UE e visto che la UE ha deciso di perseguire questa (secondo me..folle) idea di liberalismo estremo..


Well, let's see how well NTV does before passing judgement. I would, however, concede that structural separation of railways is a poorer solution than what has, for example, been done in Japan. The Japanese have split their old national railway monopoly into regional near-monopolies. Each of these regional companies are allowed to extend certain of their services into the neighboring regions, in competition with the neighbors. Like that, you get the best of both words: (1) the economies of scale from an integrated operation; and (2) a little "competition warning bell" to sound the alarm if one of the companies becomes un-competitive. This model was suggested to the EU model, but in the European mash of big and small nations it was really a non-starter.


----------



## superdupont

hans280 said:


> I would, however, concede that structural separation of railways is a poorer solution than what has, for example, been done in Japan. The Japanese have split their old national railway monopoly into regional near-monopolies. Each of these regional companies are allowed to extend certain of their services into the neighboring regions, in competition with the neighbors. Like that, you get the best of both words: (1) the economies of scale from an integrated operation; and (2) a little "competition warning bell" to sound the alarm if one of the companies becomes un-competitive. This model was suggested to the EU model, but in the European mash of big and small nations it was really a non-starter.


 ma, ho già scritto il mio punto di vista, se la commissione con i suoi rappresentanti hanno emanato delle direttive.. credo che tali direttive debbano essere recepite da tutti i paesi UE nello stesso momento e con gli stessi criteri, altrimenti in futuro potrebbero esserci seri problemi tra i paesi EU..

P.S. non è mai una cosa buona avere nazioni in grossissime difficoltà economiche come vicini.. anche perché l'Europa non ha le dimensioni dell'America.. e non ci vuole poi molto a superare un confine e arrivare a Strasburgo o a Parigi oppure a Bruxelles ...


----------



## Suburbanist

hans280 said:


> Well, let's see how well NTV does before passing judgement. I would, however, concede that structural separation of railways is a poorer solution than what has, for example, been done in Japan. *The Japanese have split their old national railway monopoly into regional near-monopolies. Each of these regional companies are allowed to extend certain of their services into the neighboring regions, in competition with the neighbors. Like that, you get the best of both words: (1) the economies of scale from an integrated operation; and (2) a little "competition warning bell" to sound the alarm if one of the companies becomes un-competitive*. This model was suggested to the EU model, but in the European mash of big and small nations it was really a non-starter.


Any book of industrial organization will show that the market power of such arrangement is not really exposing incumbents to serious threat from competition. It is an environment outright designed for tacit collusion where the most you can get is pressure from the public on the regulators to force one of the regional monopolies to adopt 

Rail infrastructure need to be really broken between a totally independent infrastructure owner, which can be some state entity, and the train operators. This mean "national rail companies" must be broken up in smaller entities, not on geographic basis, but - say - on basis of their rolling stock or something else, and then privatized or put out for long-term concession-based operation (not the short-term UK franchises, which don't promote competition either). 

This would make the use of infrastructure, at the beginning, less efficient, but over time it would revolutionize rail transport more or less like the deregulation of air transport revolutionized air travel (even if you need plenty of unused runway capacity, even if there is no match between runway construction and guaranteed use, even if for some specific relations service no longer exists).


----------



## superdupont

Suburbanist said:


> Any book of industrial organization will show that the market power of such arrangement is not really exposing incumbents to serious threat from competition. It is an environment outright designed for tacit collusion where the most you can get is pressure from the public on the regulators to force one of the regional monopolies to adopt
> 
> Rail infrastructure need to be really broken between a totally independent infrastructure owner, which can be some state entity, and the train operators. This mean "national rail companies" must be broken up in smaller entities, not on geographic basis, but - say - on basis of their rolling stock or something else, and then privatized or put out for long-term concession-based operation (not the short-term UK franchises, which don't promote competition either).
> 
> This would make the use of infrastructure, at the beginning, less efficient, but over time it would revolutionize rail transport more or less like the deregulation of air transport revolutionized air travel (even if you need plenty of unused runway capacity, even if there is no match between runway construction and guaranteed use, even if for some specific relations service no longer exists).


senti, qui in Italia nessuno crede a queste CAZZATE iper-liberiste, però purtroppo l'unione europea ha deciso di intraprendere questo tipo di politica iper-liberista, e siccome adesso facciamo parte della UE (parlo di noi europei ovviamente) credo che sia giusto che noi e tutti gli altri paesi europei che hanno aderito alla UE debbano seguire tutti le STESSE REGOLE... FRANCIA COMPRESA...tutto qui.


----------



## joseph1951

superdupont said:


> 1-
> .. *credo che tali direttive debbano essere recepite da tutti i paesi UE nello stesso momento e con gli stessi criteri,* altrimenti in futuro potrebbero esserci seri problemi tra i paesi EU..
> 
> 2-
> P.S. non è mai una cosa buona avere nazioni in grossissime difficoltà economiche come vicini..
> 
> ...


1-
This also should include Italy as well......

2-
Such as Italy, perhaps.?


Note: 
*Superdpont *appears to be yet another reincarnation of Jean-Marie de la Fayette a troll who, in the last two/three years, has been reincarnated about 12-15 times.

His main obsession is the "prepotence of France" a Country which, according to J.M. de la Fayette, (and his subsequent 14-15 aliases), intends to take over Italy.

His last reincarnation appeared on the international section about six months ag. He was promptly detected, and quickly banned.

As usual he has started a topic in the international section, as well as the Italian one, with the same subjects/obsessions.

He starts in English and continues in Italian...
Als he seems to be the _twin brother _of another foumer _*"buoyage system"*_ who writes on the same topic on a new italian thread......

here is the thread:


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1572808&highlight=


----------



## hans280

Suburbanist said:


> Any book of industrial organization will show that the market power of such arrangement is not really exposing incumbents to serious threat from competition. It is an environment outright designed for tacit collusion where the most you can get is pressure from the public on the regulators to force one of the regional monopolies to adopt
> 
> Rail infrastructure need to be really broken between a totally independent infrastructure owner, which can be some state entity, and the train operators. This mean "national rail companies" must be broken up in smaller entities, not on geographic basis, but - say - on basis of their rolling stock or something else, and then privatized or put out for long-term concession-based operation (not the short-term UK franchises, which don't promote competition either).
> 
> This would make the use of infrastructure, at the beginning, less efficient, but over time it would revolutionize rail transport more or less like the deregulation of air transport revolutionized air travel (even if you need plenty of unused runway capacity, even if there is no match between runway construction and guaranteed use, even if for some specific relations service no longer exists).


Now, be careful Suburbanist because I really don't need lessons in industrial economics. (Full disclosure: I'm a Senior Economist in an economics think-tank.) Of course what you say is mostly correct, but yours is a partial argument, which seems to confuse effectiveness and efficiency. Full structural separation is an effective way of obtaining productivity gains from increased competition. Whether it's efficient depends on whether the economies of scope and scale from an integrated operation are smaller or larger than these productivity gains. 

Over a decade ago, based on such calculations, the International Transport Forum in Paris warned the EU Commission against assuming that a full structural separation was a first-best solution to enhance efficiency. It had just as much effect as if they hadn't said anything.


----------



## M-NL

superdupont said:


> i don't think so..
> 
> –
> ----->>>>>> Direttiva 91/440/Cee
> 
> , dispone la netta separazione
> del sistema ferroviario dallo St
> ato e, all’interno del siste-
> ma ferroviario, delle attività di trasporto da quelle di ge-
> stione dell’infrastruttura; si prevede, inoltre, un primo nu-
> cleo di liberalizzazione che concede libero accesso all’in-
> frastruttura ferroviaria ai raggruppamenti internazionali di
> imprese che affettuano il trasporto combinato
> 9
> ;
> –
> Direttiva 95/18/Ce
> , introduce il concetto di licenza
> valida in tutta la comunità per i servizi liberalizzati e ne
> stabilisce i requisiti per il rilascio;
> –
> Direttiva 95/19/Ce
> , esamina la necessità di istituire in
> ogni stato membro un organo preposto all’assegnazione
> delle capacità su base non discriminatoria.
> ETC...
> http://www.giappichelli.it/stralcio/3481589.pdf
> www.ferpress.it/?p=81209
> comunque.. ti sarei grato se potessi confutare le tue affermazioni con qualche fonte attendibile.. grazie... (source please...)
> hno:


Sorry, but I can't read Italian and I will not use something like Google translate because of the high risk something is not translated properly.


----------



## KingNick

narkelion said:


> 2) They - technically speaking - are. Those trains run on 25kV AC, so almost every HSL in europe. But they aren't meant to go abroad: FrecciaRossa is a link between south and north-west of italy (i.e. from Salerno to Torino via Roma, Firenze, Bologna, Milano) only. There isn't - at the moment - any project to send them on cross-country lines.


Except you can't get out of Italy with 25 kV. No HS connection to France and the rest Switzerland and Austria use 15 kV.


----------



## narkelion

KingNick said:


> Except you can't get out of Italy with 25 kV. No HS connection to France and the rest Switzerland and Austria use 15 kV.


Yeah, that was my "technically speaking". There are no way to bring them abroad, because there are no lines to get there. That train can run on 3kV DC, but I don't think there are any HSL connected with our standard DC lines.


----------



## JumpUp

thanks!

So it means Italy only for the next years because it's not possible at all to run under the voltage of the border to France/Suisse/Austria.


----------



## narkelion

JumpUp said:


> thanks!
> 
> So it means Italy only for the next years because it's not possible at all to run under the voltage of the border to France/Suisse/Austria.


Correct. Any train crossing the border must change the engine, just like it does now.

Actually, there are 2 kind of services that run all the way from Milan/Turin to Paris and from Milan to Suisse: the firts one uses a TGV and the second one the ETR610 "Cisalpino". 

Both run under 3kV DC standard lines, and are capable of using the 1,5kV DC french standard and the 15kV AC suisse standard.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Slovenia uses 3 kV DC as Italy, then there is the non electrified line to the Vatican City. Milan-Paris TGV Réseau sets also run on 25 kV AC.


----------



## JumpUp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frecciarossa_1000

It says that ETR 1000 are able to run with 1,5kV DC french standard. On the collumn on the right side

so what now? Is it good for France?


----------



## Suburbanist

There are some speculation Italo will file another anti-competitive complaint against RFI. The first one was filled after they put a fence between Italo offices (a mix of costumer services and waiting area) and its platforms in Roma Ostiense, and allegedly stalled the completion of works in Roma Tiburtina using a fire as an excuse. They had also formally complaining about their refusal to allow more Italo ticket machines to be placed in Bologna and Napoli.

NTV lost € 86 million in 2012 and has pushed expectation of breaking even financially from 2015 to 2018. Part of it is for a good reason: Trenitalia dropped fares (or more precisely: increased the availability of its cheaper fares) and dragged Italo into a sort of price war, but NTV says it is staying for the long run. 

From the Ferrovie forum, the previous situation (the fence was built around the time they opened the Casa Italo)








.








From David Campione as seen on Ferrovie. it

After some flack, they opened a gate


----------



## Sopomon

RFI playing dirty again...

To what extent is the Italian government (judiciary system?) complicit in allowing RFI to get away with such measures in the first place? 
Well at least a price war means cheaper tickets for all


----------



## narkelion

JumpUp said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frecciarossa_1000
> 
> It says that ETR 1000 are able to run with 1,5kV DC french standard. On the collumn on the right side
> 
> so what now? Is it good for France?


Actually, it can run also under 15kV AC, Austrian and Swiss standards. 

Hence yes, it would be able to get everywhere. But I doubt it will... TrenItalia doesn't seem to be interested in crosscountry trains.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Zefiro is designed to be able to run udner 15 kV, however it is not clear if Trenitalia's version will, or if it will be possible to convert some of Trentialia's trains in the future.


----------



## K_

narkelion said:


> Actually, it can run also under 15kV AC, Austrian and Swiss standards.
> 
> Hence yes, it would be able to get everywhere. But I doubt it will... TrenItalia doesn't seem to be interested in crosscountry trains.


I could see Trenitalia operating on some routes. Trenitalia is planning to use its Thello brand for day time trains to France as well. But this will probably depend on if (and when) enough ETCS gets installed in France.
With Switzerland bringing the whole network under ETCS by 2017 they could easily run services to Switzerland...


----------



## worldwide70rm




----------



## Suburbanist

*Italo collision*

An AGV collided against a buffer at Napoli Centrale.

Source: La Repubblica

.








.








.


----------



## Svartmetall

Whoops. Reason given?


----------



## Suburbanist

Svartmetall said:


> Whoops. Reason given?


Nothing much said, except that it is likely to be due to 'human error'.

Press rumored brake failure, ItaloTreno dismissed it altogether.


----------



## Suburbanist

*ItaloTreno trains calling at each station per day per direction*

These are the numbers of trains calling at each ItaloTreno station (weekdays, per day, per direction)

_
Ancona - 3
Bologna Centrale - 22
Firenze Santa Maria Novella - 19
Milano Porta Garibaldi - 20
Milano Rogoredo - 20
Mediopadana - 6
Napoli Centrale - 11
Padova - 5
Pesaro - 3
Rimini - 3
Roma Ostiense - 11
Roma Tiburtina - 22
Salerno - 8 
Torino Porta Susa - 8
Venezia Mestre - 5
Venezia Santa Lucia - 5
_


----------



## KingNick

Does Italo have reserves for cases like this, in order to keep up their timetable?


----------



## Suburbanist

KingNick said:


> Does Italo have reserves for cases like this, in order to keep up their timetable?


Yes, they have a fleet management program with spares (also needed for scheduled maintenance).

According to the newspaper, there was another AGV parked nearby and the replacement train departed almost on time.


----------



## Castor_Game

Suburbanist said:


> An AGV collided against a buffer at Napoli Centrale.
> 
> Source: La Repubblica
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


the buffer did not even flinch


----------



## Suburbanist

*Napoli Afragola station*

After many delays and false-starts, there will be soon a new tender for the construction of station Napoli Afragola (location) on the high-speed line, whose works had been stopped.

Project is designed by Zara Hadid.









(c) Campania sul Web









(C) Architecture Ticker









(C) Architecture Ticker










This station will be used by trains that do not begin/end their itineraries in Napoli. It will save a lot of time required on the final approach to Napoli Centrale and for reversing trains going further south. 

There will be also a short extension of Circumvesuviana to the station.


----------



## Suburbanist

Castor_Game said:


> the buffer did not even flinch


For the little damage I think it was a very low-speed collision.


----------



## Sopomon

That's some beautiful architecture


----------



## Slagathor

edit


----------



## Suburbanist

Some maps by forumer Super Tim



Super Tim said:


> Se mi posso permettere:


pink = high-speed lines
black = regular heavy rail
red = light rail/suburban rail
yellow = subway


----------



## Baron Hirsch

Beautiful station, yes, but is it necessary? Napoli is a huge city while Salerno is tiny. To loose customers to Napoli for those going to Salerno does not make sense. 
So questions to those in the know:
- Is this construction in relation to an ongoing or upcoming extension of HSR to Reggio de Calabria or Palermo? 
- Is the station somehow convenient for outer districts of Napoli?
- Could trains heading from Rome to Bari stop there or is the junction (Casserta) north of here?


----------



## Martin 1

I agree with Baron Hirsch, it's quite strange, especially about loosing customers ...


----------



## Baron Hirsch

Thanks, Martin. Just checked a map to answer my own last question. The future station is south of the junction to Caserta (-Bari), a connection could only work by reversing and detouring, so would not be convenient. Only if a more southerly HSR to Bari is built would the new station be of advantage for the east coast.


----------



## Jasper90

Baron Hirsch said:


> Beautiful station, yes, but is it necessary? Napoli is a huge city while Salerno is tiny. To loose customers to Napoli for those going to Salerno does not make sense.
> So questions to those in the know:
> - Is this construction in relation to an ongoing or upcoming extension of HSR to Reggio de Calabria or Palermo?


Yes, that's the idea, but it's not going to happen very soon.


> - Is the station somehow convenient for outer districts of Napoli?


Totally. The area around Afragola is extremely dense and a lot of inhabitants would benefit from the connection with the suburban rail and better access by car.


> - Could trains heading from Rome to Bari stop there or is the junction (Casserta) north of here?


They should build another rail line towards Bari soon, and I guess it will be designed in order to use Afragola train station. However I haven't seen any map or plan of the future line.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Afragola will have two main roles:

Service the immense north naples metro area, home to about 2 million people for whom is difficult to get to Napoli centrale 

Speed up connection to Salerno and Calabria: today trains have to go to Centrale, invert and go back out to the north Vesuvio line. With this station all trains going South will save 30 minutes


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Will trains ending or starting at Napoli Cle. also stop in Afragola for connections?

I looked on the project page but it doesn't say much, just a lot of promises on the benefits of taking Circumvesuviana there and streamlining regional traffic out of Napoli.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Nothing is preventing it but it will depend on the commercial choices Made by the two operators in Italy

These car-train stations tend to be popular thought, I would not be surprised if they did


----------



## Suburbanist

Eddard Stark said:


> Nothing is preventing it but it will depend on the commercial choices Made by the two operators in Italy
> 
> These car-train stations tend to be popular thought, I would not be surprised if they did


They will also build* Vesuvio Est High Speed Park-and-Ride station* 









These cylindrical structures are "low-footprint" parking garages










.









.

Its main hall remembers Avignon TGV









Source: RFI

.










Vesuvio Est is on earlier stages, though. There is still no specific money set aside to build the station though the design has been approved.


----------



## Sunfuns

Are there any other HSR projects currently under construction or likely to be soon under construction in Italy?


----------



## Eddard Stark

Sunfuns said:


> Are there any other HSR projects currently under construction or likely to be soon under construction in Italy?


U/c is the Treviglio-Brescia line and you can day the tunnel from Genova to the plani of north Italy. Also partiially i/C the tunnel of brennero and frejus


----------



## IThomas

*Italian railways showcase 'stunning' new Frecciarossa*

Ferrovie dello Stato, Italy's state-owned railway company, this month presented its new technological gem, the high-speed Frecciarossa 1000 train, to President Giorgio Napolitano at a ceremony in Rome. The Frecciarossa 1000 was built as part of a wider 5 billion-euro investment plan aimed at modernizing the railroad comapny's fleet, also though the investment of 1.5 billion euros in the production of regional trains. It can reach speeds of as high as 360 kilometres per hour. The machine is billed as "the most stunning high-speed train in the world" by its owner, Ferrovie dello Stato's passenger transport unit Trenitalia. The model boasts a metallic snake-like body that showcases flexibility and style. Its red and grey colours travel up the aerodynamic body with elegance and style, and its interiors showcase comfort and design.

"Frecciarossa 1000 is unique in the international scenario owing to its technological innovations, technical performance, interoperability, design, quality and safety", Ferrovie dello Stato said in an emailed statement. It is "set to raise the current technical, environmental, external and internal aesthetic standards, while guaranteeing maximum performance and travel comfort". It was released from the AnsaldoBreda production plant on March 26, and has since started its whirlwind promotional tour. Ferrovie dello Stato has commissioned a total of 50 Frecciarossa 1000 models to embellish the tracks that criss-cross Italy. The company currently has 60 ETR500 Frecciarossa trains running the tracks across Italy, reaching speeds as high as 300 kilometres and bringing passengers swiftly and safely to destination. It operates the ETR610 Frecciargento model - the so-called "Silver Arrow" train - mainly used to connect up the capital city of Rome with the prime time tourist destination of Venice, through speeds of as high as 250kmh.

It is forecast to start carrying passengers at the end of 2014 or in early 2015. Trenitalia also has some 70 regional trains under production as part of a separate project won by French power-equipment and train maker Alstom. AnsaldoBreda is owned by Finmeccanica, Italy's state-owned defence company. Bombardier is the world's third-largest planemaker, and also owns train producer Bombardier Transportation.

ansa


----------



## ramakrishna1984

Roma Tiburtina is served by 290 regional and 140 high speed trains. It is expected to reach a ridership of 45,000 a day by 2015


http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/roma-tiburtina-railway-station/


----------



## EMArg

Video shot from the High Speed Train of Trenitalia of the trip Milan-Venice:


----------



## EMArg

And another video, from Venice to Padua:


----------



## Eddard Stark

EMArg said:


> Video shot from the High Speed Train of Trenitalia of the trip Milan-Venice: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snuy6Uzyn38">YouTube Link</a>


Hum... It is not a HSR line. Only the padova-Venezia reach 200 km/h. Theoretically also Milan-treviglio


----------



## EMArg

Wouldn't still be in this category? I mean, is it based on the speed or in the kind of train?


----------



## Tower Dude

So does anyone know the status of the Firenze TAV Station, the Napoli Afragola, Station, and the Diretissima upgrade?


----------



## narkelion

Direttissima? Never heard of an upgrade of it....


----------



## Coccodrillo

I have heard of some plans to convert it to 25 kV AC, but I think they have been dropped, it is not worth it. The Direttissima* on some sections is designed for 300 km/h, but not many.

*Florence-Rome in this case, but the same name is used for the fast lines Bologna-Florence and Rome-Naples built in the 1930s (which on some sections have a very high design speed for the time, around 180 km/h)


----------



## hans280

narkelion said:


> Direttissima? Never heard of an upgrade of it....


I don't know how official this was, but in the old days when the lines were under construction the Italian railway company FS had posted on its website plans and progress on every line. An upgrade of the Diretissima was among the projects listed - but without a timeline. It looks like it has been discretely dropped/postponed.


----------



## narkelion

There's no project ongoing now, because there's no much need of it. 

That railway is still very much used by 3kV trains (between Roma and Orte, Arezzo and Firenze). Moreover, only some stretches of it may be easily upgraded, and the cost isn't worth it. There would be a very small improvement in the timetables and an umbearable rising in costs and maintainance works (both for trains and railway)...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...hs-links-to-italian-airports.html?channel=542
> 
> *Agreement signed on HS links to Italian airports*
> Friday, August 29, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _OPTIONS for improving high-speed rail links to Italy's most important airports will be examined in more detail following the signing of an agreement between Italian State Railways (FS) and the Italian Ministry of Transport on August 26_
> 
> Under the deal, which was signed in Rimini by transport minister Mr Maurizio Lupi and FS CEO Mr Michele Elia, options will be presented to the government by the end the year for new high-speed connections to Rome Fiumicino, Milano Malpensa, and Venice Tessera based on projected passenger demand at these airports
> 
> ...


----------



## Suburbanist

dimlys1994 said:


> From Rail Journal:


Malpensa should be a relatively simple case


----------



## IThomas

The cabinet on Friday approved sweeping measures to revamp Italy's judicial, political and economic systems, including the government's so-called 'Unblock Italy': projects across the country regarding motorways, train network, airports, metro lines, and so on.

High speed rail network









Among big projects (360km/h) AV/AC
(1)* Turin - Lyon (France)
(2)* Naples - Bari 
(3)* Milan - Genoa
(4)* Brescia - Padua
* Palermo - Messina - Catania (250 km/h) 

map show some significative projects


----------



## Sunfuns

Is there really any construction at all between Naples and Bari? I see this constantly in new and old maps, but seems to me just a fantasy at the moment.


----------



## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> Is there really any construction at all between Naples and Bari? I see this constantly in new and old maps, but seems to me just a fantasy at the moment.


Plans there are for a mix of improvements on the existing line and some new sectors, not a fully new high-speed line.

Some projects have been completed already over there, albeit slowly.


----------



## city_thing

Suburbanist said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From David Campione as seen on Ferrovie. it


Looks like the Qantas logo...


----------



## IThomas

^^
Yours is a kangaroo, our a sweet bunny :lol:


----------



## IThomas

Matteo Renzi launch new government website about reforms passodopopasso.italia.it 
Here the map of current projects "Unblock Italy".


----------



## Slagathor

Which ones of these are actually railway related? Alta capacità is a pretty general term...


----------



## narkelion

1, 2, 6, 17 and 19 are railway related. 

But I think that 6 won't be "high speed", but just a normal railway.


----------



## Jasper90

Slagathor said:


> Which ones of these are actually railway related? Alta capacità is a pretty general term...


Alta capacità = high capacity railway. It generally means 200 km/h maximum speed.
Alta velocità = high speed railway.
However, many of those in the map are actually highways (autostrada and superstrada) and airport upgrades (aeroporto).


----------



## Jasper90

narkelion said:


> 1, 2, 6, 17 and 19 are railway related. But I think that 6 won't be "high speed", but just a normal railway.


Thanks 
Same for 19: they'll probably settle for a 220 km/h railway, because it crosses dense areas and therefore needs to stop every 30-50 km. So the stretches aren't long enough to reach higher speed.


----------



## narkelion

Will they?

I knew that Brescia - Padova stretch was part of the HSL Torino - Venezia, already completed between Torino and Treviglio. 

Hence designed for 300 km/h.

But I may be wrong: I haven't really read much about it lately.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
Milano-Venezia will be completely high-speed

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f8fcb4050e64c110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=3b8cb4050e64c110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD


----------



## Jasper90

GENIUS LOCI said:


> ^^
> Milano-Venezia will be completely high-speed


We don't know: there is still no definite project between Verona and Padova and it will very likely stop in Vicenza too. The piece from Padova to Venice is already completed and its speed is 220 km/h.

Of course we'll have to wait to see the completed project to draw conclusions, but I think it's very unlikely they'll make a high-speed railway for these reasons.

*EDIT:*



GENIUS LOCI said:


> http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f8fcb4050e64c110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD
> 
> http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=3b8cb4050e64c110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD


Verona - Padova is an old project. According to the latest news articles, the line will cross Vicenza next to the old one and it will have a new train station in West Vicenza, next to the Fiera. I don't like the new station outside the centre, but that's what they'll probably do, unfortunately 

http://www.vicenzareport.it/2014/07/tav-regione-approva-protocollo-dintesa-per-tratta-vicentina/


----------



## Sunfuns

K_ said:


> I was in the area as well a year ago. What I remember is that the railways still lack a lot in integration. In Vilagarcia de Arouse I couldn't buy a ticket for Barcelona for example, because there was no direct train...
> 
> The infrastructure that is being built there is amazing, but it is not really utilised well.


I took a train from Santiago to Pontevedra (see my report in the Spain railway thread). Even the old route is quite nice albeit infrequently used. The new line to be opened next year (Santiago-Vigo) will be a great improvement, but I agree that very efficient utilisation is still not there.

Vilagarcia de Arousa to Barcelona is a very long distance, I don't think you can cover that in one day... I'm going to Barcelona and Zaragoza in few weeks and among other things it will be an opportunity to observe how well a public transport works there and in the immediate area as currently we are not planning to rent a car.


----------



## K_

Sunfuns said:


> Vilagarcia de Arousa to Barcelona is a very long distance, I don't think you can cover that in one day... I


I actually did Vilagarcia de Arouse - Bern in about 30 hours. But this did indeed involve the night train from A Coruna to Barcelona. 
These night trains are amongst the nicest trains in Europe, and they would get a lot more customers if they were advertised as a means to get to anywhere, not just the places they happen to stop at...

But we're getting of topic. Again. Maybe I should talk about how we got from Palermo to Bern in exactly 24 hours, with every train leaving and arriving on time, except for the Swiss one


----------



## VITORIA MAN

Sunfuns said:


> I took a train from Santiago to Pontevedra (see my report in the Spain railway thread). Even the old route is quite nice albeit infrequently used. The new line to be opened next year (Santiago-Vigo) will be a great improvement, but I agree that very efficient utilisation is still not there.
> 
> Vilagarcia de Arousa to Barcelona is a very long distance, I don't think you can cover that in one day... I'm going to Barcelona and Zaragoza in few weeks and among other things it will be an opportunity to observe how well a public transport works there and in the immediate area as currently we are not planning to rent a car.


in which page is your report ?


----------



## Sunfuns

VITORIA MAN said:


> in which page is your report ?


131 & 132


----------



## Stravinsky

Eddard Stark said:


> Most of the cost will be paid by project financing.
> 
> Most of the cost of BRE-BE-MI


You're probably aware of the failure of it to attract drivers, so far.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

danke sunfuns


----------



## Stravinsky

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Italy is a free country, people are free to buy cars with money they earn, after taxes.


Yes, they are. But the role of the country in this respect is to provide alternatives to them.

We're in 2014, we have a century of experience in transport planning with cars. Projects should fit within a clear objective. That's the purpose of plans.

The Orte–Mestre motorway would supposedly pass through a few sparsely populated areas of Italy. I also think it's pretty much representative of the whole situation when you Google it and get only complaints about it.

The comparison with France is flawed. Italy is less than half in size. We can use the UK as a more fitting comparison.


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> That is not what's being claimed.
> 
> What is being claimed is that spending money on PT would benefit more people than spending money on roads.
> 
> Resources are limited. When the government spends the peoples' money it should do so in a way that maximises the benefit to the people.


But you can't only analyze immediate number of people benefited.

If you go down that route, the only things that would get investment are local transportation. No country will ever have more passenger counts, on a daily basis, using long-distance transportation (road, rail, air, doesn't matter) than commuters going from home to work. The number of commuters will always dwarf long-distance travelers on any day.

This doesn't mean each city or metro area should become and island, and doesn't mean fast links not meant for regular traditional commute are useless because far fewer people use them. We don't live in fiefdom times any longer. Only some odd radical anarco-communists think itt would be a good thing not to have fast links because it would force people to live, work, eat and form ties only on a local basis if you can't easily travel elsewhere...

All investments on high-speed rail in Italy have been criticized by people wanting the money to be "better spent on local mobility". I've even found references to that in the 1970s when the new Roma-Firenze railway was being built. And I've personally follow the diatribes about the "uselessness and waste of money" of bringing very high speed lines to Napoli (arguing there were already two rail lines leading there) or the high-speed link Bologna-Firenze with its massive 78km of tunnels. The excuse is usually that they should have used the money to expand commuter systems around major cities or spend on subways. 

And now, post-2008 crisis, there is this populist line of high-speed rail being "something for the rich", which is absolutely false and high-speed travel in Italy is the cheapest in Europe, discounted fares are abundant and easily available up to 3-4 days before travel, often up to the day before, and even the regular full prices are cheaper on a km-basis than comparable city pairs in Germany or France.


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## Eddard Stark

Stravinsky said:


> You're probably aware of the failure of it to attract drivers, so far.


Wait to early to say. But it matters not, as it was built largely with private funds


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## Eddard Stark

Stravinsky said:


> Yes, they are. But the role of the country in this respect is to provide alternatives to them. We're in 2014, we have a century of experience in transport planning with cars. Projects should fit within a clear objective. That's the purpose of plans. The Orte–Mestre motorway would supposedly pass through a few sparsely populated areas of Italy. I also think it's pretty much representative of the whole situation when you Google it and get only complaints about it. The comparison with France is flawed. Italy is less than half in size. We can use the UK as a more fitting comparison.


Orte-Mestre goes through 3 regions with 9 million people.

It connects Italy's capital with the third metropolitan area of the country, and with north and East Europe. 

Nimbys are always there for any project, no doubt.

Anyway as I said the 10 billion are largely PF. I fail to see the problem.


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## Stravinsky

High speed lines are are relatively new thing. There are a few of them under construction and some in planning process.

Autostrade, on the other hand, have been built since the 1920s. Besides maintenance and routine upgrades and renovations (Variante di Valico, A3, some bypasses and new lanes), building new motorways from scratch has few opportunities since all of the densely populated areas are currently served.

I said public transport could have been a better investment. All the same for trains, as the system is quite in need of upgrades.

Italy has the highest level of car ownership in Europe. If we want to reduce that number, we have to invest in public transport and high-speed rail.

The state of urban public transport systems is generally abysmal. While inter-city high-speed lines _need_ to be funded if we want to avoid the construction of new motorways.


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## Stravinsky

Eddard Stark said:


> Wait to early to say. But it matters not, as it was built largely with private funds


I don't recall needed transport links that went unused when opened. I remember many useless ones, though.

Land value matters. If a road is not used, it's a waste of space.


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## Eddard Stark

Stravinsky said:


> I don't recall needed transport links that went unused when opened. I remember many useless ones, though. Land value matters. If a road is not used, it's a waste of space.


It was opened in August, connection on both ends are still u-c and the main advantages still not wxploited.

Let's talk in 2 years.


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## Eddard Stark

Stravinsky said:


> High speed lines are are relatively new thing. There are a few of them under construction and some in planning process. Autostrade, on the other hand, have been built since the 1920s. Besides maintenance and routine upgrades and renovations (Variante di Valico, A3, some bypasses and new lanes), building new motorways from scratch has few opportunities since all of the densely populated areas are currently served. I said public transport could have been a better investment. All the same for trains, as the system is quite in need of upgrades. Italy has the highest level of car ownership in Europe. If we want to reduce that number, we have to invest in public transport and high-speed rail. The state of urban public transport systems is generally abysmal. While inter-city high-speed lines need to be funded if we want to avoid the construction of new motorways.


The country has invested in creating a 1000 km long high speed line and many upgrades on other lines and is currently involved in excavating 3 of the world longest railway tunnels plus a short stretch of av line from Milan to Brescia.

In the renzi plan there are plenty of railways.

I disagree about railways in Italy being such a laggard. They are on many fronts an excellent service, especially in the center-north of the country were distances and geography permit. 

What should Italy do more than build 2 alpine tunnels, terzo valico and put in plan Milan-Venezia, Rome-Bari and the Sicilian railways?


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## Stravinsky

Invest in the South? Invest in regional, local, and suburban rail services? _Heavily_ invest in urban mass transit systems? Most of those who own a car live in cities, and those who own a car are much more prone to travel by car, than those without one.

This is where we stand now. This is why our roads are congested. The modal share of rail in Italy is significantly lower than in France, for example. And our country is much smaller. We're almost at the same level of (or below) the UK, and they have a 30% smaller network.

I guess dated long-term plannign has something to do with it. Italy is stuck in its 1960s dolce vita mentality, ffs.


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## Sunfuns

Improving urban and suburban rail based transport would be a good idea. Metro of Rome is way too small for the size of the city. Extra money to quickly finish Naples metro (the whole circle) would be well spent. Suburban trains in Naples area are also in bad condition. I'm sure there is more stuff like that elsewhere. 

I'm not against HS rail or new roads, but the are other useful infrastructure projects which also deserve consideration.


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## Suburbanist

Stravinsky said:


> Invest in the South?


The combined rail-road Strait Messina Bridge should have been part of the plan indeed!!!


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## franciscoc

there is any possibility of tunneling in the Strait of messina? 
I know it's an earthquake zone but have made Istanbul Bosporus tunnel


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## Suburbanist

franciscoc said:


> there is any possibility of tunneling in the Strait of messina?
> I know it's an earthquake zone but have made Istanbul Bosporus tunnel


Difficult, because the strait has a depth of up to 250m over just 4km width and has an extremely difficult geology. A bridge is cheaper and safer.


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## Eddard Stark

Stravinsky said:


> Invest in the South? Invest in regional, local, and suburban rail services? _Heavily_ invest in urban mass transit systems? Most of those who own a car live in cities, and those who own a car are much more prone to travel by car, than those without one.
> 
> This is where we stand now. This is why our roads are congested. The modal share of rail in Italy is significantly lower than in France, for example. And our country is much smaller. We're almost at the same level of (or below) the UK, and they have a 30% smaller network.
> 
> I guess dated long-term plannign has something to do with it. Italy is stuck in its 1960s dolce vita mentality, ffs.


Can you point a country in Europe with more KM of metro lines in costruction than Italy? maybe only Spain, maybe. 

Rail has more or less the market it can capture in Italy, a country which unlike France happens to be long and with plenty of natural barriers. For example in most of the south investing in rail transport is almost useless, due to distances, orography and demography.

Nevertheles, north Italy actually fares quite well in comparison. Lombardy and Milan have a very extensive network of local, regional and suburban rail. On par with any major metropolis in Europe. On a lesser extent, also Rome, Naples, Turin, Genoa, the Veneto region and Emilia Romagna.

Car ownership in the major italian cities is declining, from admittedly high levels.

The national government has invested in the past 20-30 years heavily in public transport: metros, new hurban rails, trams. Less than it could? maybe. Less than highways? I doubt it. We have opened a few km of highways in the last 20 years, France has opened much, much, much more. 

I guess France is stuck in "dolce vita" mentality?


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## Sunfuns

Dedicated HS lines used exclusively for long distance travel will never be as busy as those also carrying commuter traffic. Maybe in Japan or China, but not in Western Europe. Four trains per hour per direction would already be excellent. That I think we need to take into account. It doesn't automatically make improvements to long distance travel unnecessary.


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## Christopher125

Sunfuns said:


> Dedicated HS lines used exclusively for long distance travel will never be as busy as those also carrying commuter traffic. Maybe in Japan or China, but not in Western Europe. Four trains per hour per direction would already be excellent. That I think we need to take into account. It doesn't automatically make improvements to long distance travel unnecessary.


Have you seen the plans for HS2 in the UK? Between London and the outskirts of Birmingham it will carry up to 18 trains per hour, with the routes from Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds carrying 11tph and 10tph respectively, so on the right route with dedicated infrastructure high frequencies can be justified for intercity services - see the diagram on page 5

Chris


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## IThomas

*Trenitalia Frecciarossa 1000: 50 new trains
Milan-Rome in just 2h20'*

It was presented new Frecciarossa 1000, manufactured in Pistoia and Vado Ligure (Savona) by Ansaldo Breda. Eight railway carriages, 447 seats for four different categories of customers. The cost for each train is 30 million euro. From June 2015, will come into operation in Italy, almost simultaneously with the beginning of Expo Milan (May 2015). The most important feature of this train is the speed: it's up to 400 km/h. 

On balance, the Milan-Rome will be covered in just two hours and twenty minutes! A new challenge for airlines. Frecciarossa 1000 is the cutting edge of high-speed trains. Trenitalia will start with six trains, while two new trains will be added every month until to complete the contract (50 trains), scheduled for early 2017. 

Frecciarossa 1000 is the first high-speed train in the world to have been certified environmental impact (EPD), because it contains just 28 grams of C02 emissions per passenger / km. A possible outcome thanks to a very low aerodynamic resistance, excellent mass / power and energy savings.


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## Eddard Stark

Coccodrillo said:


> Well, today we know it costed around 8 billion euro (but with the upgrade of nearby A4, I think...), and it is used by just 1 or 2 trains per hour per direction. Basically, it is empty. No, they aren't essential (at least the Milan-Turin line), as in many cases tickets are too expensive for Italian citizens, which consequently don't use them.


Do you have proof they don't? 

Last time I checked frecciarossa between Turin and Milan were quite full


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/ntv-to-withdraw-adriatic-services.html?channel=542
> 
> *NTV to withdraw Adriatic services*
> Friday, September 26, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _THE steering committee of Italian open-access high-speed operator NTV voted on September 24 to restructure its debts, with shareholders expected to contribute capital, while the company has also decided to withdraw Italo services to the Adriatic Coast from the start of the 2015 timetable on December 15_
> 
> NTV launched services from Milan to Rimini, Pesaro and Ancona a year ago, but it has decided to withdraw from the route due to high infrastructure access costs.
> 
> NTV says the cessation of this service will enable it to strengthen its presence on the profitable Milan - Rome - Naples route.
> 
> In the first half of 2014 NTV made a loss of €77m and by the middle of the year net debts stood at €666m.


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## Coccodrillo

IThomas said:


> *Trenitalia Frecciarossa 1000: 50 new trains
> Milan-Rome in just 2h20'*
> 
> [ youtube ]jVJlWxB2KbU[ /youtube ]


In the video it is said that it is made in Italy...while it is a Bombardier project. "Made in Europe" would likely be more correct 



Eddard Stark said:


> Do you have proof they don't?
> 
> Last time I checked frecciarossa between Turin and Milan were quite full


Having all trains 100% full means nothing, without saying also how many trains there are.

I admit I have exagerated saying that nobody in Italy cannot afford HSTs, however, a full fare Frecciarossa ticket for Milan Centrale-Turin Porta Nuova costs 30 €, comparable to the 34 € ViaMichelin.it gives for the same trip by car. To compare, an InterRegio train (1h52) on the same trip costs 12.20 €, and a Frecciabianca (much less stops than the IR, but taking just 8 minutes less: 1h44) costs 25.50 €.

Full fare Frecciarossa tickets are still quite expensive, IMHO, and advance purchase discounts on such a short trip aren't so attractive (as the train competitor on Milan-Turin is the car, not the airplane).

The Frecciabianca trains are the most strange: they are just 8 minutes faster than the InterRegio, but cost the double of them. They also take much more time than the Frecciarossa, but cost just 4.50 € less. What's their point?


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## Jasper90

Coccodrillo said:


> In the video it is said that it is made in Italy...while it is a Bombardier project. "Made in Europe" would likely be more correct
> 
> 
> 
> Having all trains 100% full means nothing, without saying also how many trains there are.
> 
> I admit I have exagerated saying that nobody in Italy cannot afford HSTs, however, a full fare Frecciarossa ticket for Milan Centrale-Turin Porta Nuova costs 30 €, comparable to the 34 € ViaMichelin.it gives for the same trip by car. To compare, an InterRegio train (1h52) on the same trip costs 12.20 €, and a Frecciabianca (much less stops than the IR, but taking just 8 minutes less: 1h44) costs 25.50 €.
> 
> Full fare Frecciarossa tickets are still quite expensive, IMHO, and advance purchase discounts on such a short trip aren't so attractive (as the train competitor on Milan-Turin is the car, not the airplane).
> 
> *The Frecciabianca trains are the most strange: they are just 8 minutes faster than the InterRegio, but cost the double of them. They also take much more time than the Frecciarossa, but cost just 4.50 € less. What's their point?*


Going from Venice to Turin (or intermediate stations) without changing train in Milan, even if it takes half an hour more, including the wasted time for changing train.


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## Suburbanist

dimlys1994 said:


> From Rail Journal:


I'm ambivalent about this. I was hoping this service would turn out great. However, as NTV has gone red and is not on its best financial shape, it probably has no money to further expand the fleet, and the diversion of 2 trains to operate these Adriatic services was reducing its competitiveness on the core axis Torino-Napoli.


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## Coccodrillo

Jasper90 said:


> Going from Venice to Turin (or intermediate stations) without changing train in Milan, even if it takes half an hour more, including the wasted time for changing train.


That's true. But are there really enough people wanting to bypass Milan to make these trains profitable between Milan and Turin?

Anyway, with the arrival of the new ETR 400 trains and with the Milan-Brescia HSL (which will use 25 kV AC), the old ETR 500 sets will likely be deployed on Turin-Venice (and Milan-Adriatic coast).


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## tneruals

*Interesting video on NTV's Italo AGV train*

Here's the link (42-min. long video, with some commercial breaks)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x22x7h1_rise-of-the-machine-bullet-train-italo-agv_tech


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## JumpUp

Hey,

does anybody of you have information about the service of the new ETR 1000 from this December?

Will they start service in Italy for sure?

I.m curious!

Thanks


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## narkelion

No, AFAIK the ETR400 (FrecciaRossa 1000) won't start service from the winter timetable.

But I'm not 100% sure.

Inviato da un Lollipopfonino usando Tapacazzo


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-services-reach-rome-airport.html?channel=523
> 
> *High-speed services reach Rome airport*
> Tuesday, December 16, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _TRENITALIA launched the first high-speed services to Rome Leonardo da Vinci airport on December 14, when selected Frecciaargento services were extended to serve the airport station at Fiumicino_
> 
> Two services a day now link Venice, Padova, Bologna Central, and Florence Santa Maria Novella (SMN) with the airport, running via Rome's Tiburtina and Termini stations. The service offers journey times of 4h 12min from Venice Mestre, 2h 59min from Bologna Central, and 2h 14min from Florence SMN.
> 
> The new service is intended to complement the Fiumicino - Termini Leonardo Express and FL1 Fiumicino - Ostiense - Tiburtina services.
> 
> For the time being the airport can only be served by seven-car Frecciaargento trains due to the short platforms at Fiumicino and the services run via the conventional line from Rome, although there are plans to construct a dedicated high-speed line to the airport
> 
> ...


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## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/blog/...hird-construction-phase-of-tortona-genoa-hsr/
> 
> *Funding finalised for third construction phase of Tortona-Genoa HSR*
> 16 JAN, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italy’s rail infrastructure owner, RFI, and the COCIV consortium have finalised funding for the third construction lot, valued at €607 million, of the Terzo Valico (Third Pass) high-speed railway between Tortona/Novi Ligure and Genoa.
> 
> Italy is pressing ahead with the 53-kilometre railway in the north of the country which will form part of Europe’s Rhine-Alpine Corridor – one of several key transport routes identified by the European Commission
> 
> ...


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...aldi-to-complete-napoli-afragola-station.html
> 
> *Astaldi to complete Napoli Afragola station*
> 18 Feb 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Much of the preparatory work at the Afragola site has already been completed. The station is expected to serve as an interchange between high speed and local services, says infrastructure manager RFI_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ITALY: On February 16, construction group Astaldi announced that it had been awarded a €61m civil works contract by Italferr for ‘completion’ of Napoli Afragola station on the Napoli – Roma high speed line.
> 
> Although site clearance and other preparatory works were undertaken at Afragola, 3 km north of Napoli, construction of the landmark high speed station has been delayed by several years following the downturn in the Italian economy. However, Astaldi says that the station should be completed ‘in around two years’, fulfilling the bold 38 000 m2 design by architect Zaha Hadid
> 
> ...


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## brick84

*ETR600.08 *

_Working on a Fiumicino Airporto to Venice service, running in Parco Leonardo_











by Denis Lauro on Flickr


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...aly-sign-lyon-–-turin-accord.html?channel=537
> 
> *France and Italy sign Lyon – Turin accord*
> Thursday, February 26, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _FRENCH president Mr François Hollande, French secretary of state for transport Mr Alain Vidalies and Italian infrastructure and transport minister Mr Maurizio Lupi signed an agreement to go ahead with a new €26bn railway linking Lyon and Turin during an international summit in Paris on February 24_
> 
> "We can now say the Lyon – Turin railway is not just in the pipeline, but has been launched," Hollande says. "It will take time to come to fruition but there are, as of today, no brakes on the project and no obstacles lying in the way of its completion."
> 
> This agreement follows the approval of the project by the Italian Interministerial Committee for Economic Planning (CIPE) on February 20, paving the way for an application for TEN-T funding from the European Union (EU). The French and Italian governments hope to secure up to 40% of the funding required for the project from EU sources
> 
> ...


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## Suburbanist

Good. This will create new opportunities for French<=>Italy rail services, which are not stifled by bad connections on both sides of the border.


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## Eddard Stark

Mah, I doubt we will ever see any significant shift from car/planes to trains on this route.

At best it's a project for goods transportation, with the only small detail that most of the economical relationship is between Italy and Germany and not Italy and France, so the tunnel being built by the swiss (Gothard) and the project of the new Brenner tunnel seems to me to be a lot more interesting.


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## Suburbanist

Eddard Stark said:


> Mah, I doubt we will ever see any significant shift from car/planes to trains on this route.
> 
> At best it's a project for goods transportation, with the only small detail that most of the economical relationship is between Italy and Germany and not Italy and France, so the tunnel being built by the swiss (Gothard) and the project of the new Brenner tunnel seems to me to be a lot more interesting.


I think we could see Lyon and Torino-Milano becoming more integrated, a bit, due to improved high-speed rail links. It will also put both Italian cities within reach of Paris by high-speed rail.


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## Eddard Stark

Suburbanist said:


> I think we could see Lyon and Torino-Milano becoming more integrated, a bit, due to improved high-speed rail links. It will also put both Italian cities within reach of Paris by high-speed rail.


Wow, lyon and Milan... I doubt we will ever see much traffic there. Milan and Zurich yes, but Milan and Lyon?

Paris will be anyway too far I think


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## Coccodrillo

> The line is expected to open in 2028, reducing Lyon – Turin journey times from 3h 30min to 1h 47min.


Actually, there are just 3 passengers trains a day (per direction) on the existing line, none of which goes to Lyon itself (just to Saint Euxpéry airport on its way to Paris).


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## Eddard Stark

Now, it's very possible that once the line will be open (in 2028!!!) we will have trains running Lyon-Turin-Milan. Maybe we could even have Marseille-Lyon-Turin-Milan services decently interesting, on top of the Paris-Turin-Milan

But a bit of math tells me anyway Milan-Paris (by far the most interesting connection) will be something close to 4 hours, 4 hours and 30 minutes. In my opinion, too much to be competitive with planes


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## KingNick

Nah, 4:30 is still within the range to compete with planes. You won't be much faster going by plane as you'll have to go to the airport at least one hour early (cautious people tend to be there even earlier), be on your way to the destination, have your stuff collected and make it to the city again.


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## Attus

Eddard Stark said:


> But a bit of math tells me anyway Milan-Paris (by far the most interesting connection) will be something close to 4 hours, 4 hours and 30 minutes. In my opinion, too much to be competitive with planes


Knowing that all railway stations are in the city centers and that you are free to arrive to the station 5 minutes before your train departs, in my opinion up to 5 hours it may still be competitive.


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## K_

Attus said:


> Knowing that all railway stations are in the city centers and that you are free to arrive to the station 5 minutes before your train departs, in my opinion up to 5 hours it may still be competitive.


A lot depends on how well the high speed system is integrated in the rest of the network too. Not everyone starts in a major city. If the transfer local train -> HST -> local train is smooth then train becomes even competitive where travel time goes to 8 hours. Even more so if the train service is frequent and easier to fit your schedule around. 
Trains connect areas, not points. Don't forget that...


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## K_

Eddard Stark said:


> But a bit of math tells me anyway Milan-Paris (by far the most interesting connection) will be something close to 4 hours, 4 hours and 30 minutes. In my opinion, too much to be competitive with planes


And a bit of geography tells me that the line is not just going to link Milano to Paris. It is also going to like Torino to Lyon, Milano to Lyon, Chambery to Paris, Paris to Torino, and further: Lyon to Bolonga, etc...

This has potential. If done right.


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## TacPack

...............


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## flierfy

K_ said:


> Trains connect areas, not points. Don't forget that...


Actually no. Trains run from station to station just as aeroplanes fly from airport to airport. This is precisely what you dispute, a point-to-point service. Areas are only served by all sorts of road traffic.


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## K_

flierfy said:


> Actually no. Trains run from station to station just as aeroplanes fly from airport to airport. This is precisely what you dispute, a point-to-point service. Areas are only served by all sorts of road traffic.


A "point to point" service where the service starts within walking distance of my door. And ends within walking distance of most of the places I want to go to. I don't see air offering anything near that. And I don't see many air services with intermediate stops either. That is the advantage of trains: One service can serve a many destinations. And with network integration the number of potential destinations increases.
An interchange station where the Geneve - Grenoble - Valence line crosses the future HSL for example would multiply the number of destinations this HSL serves. Imagine being able to get from Geneve to Torino in two hours...


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...e-capital-and-buy-new-trains.html?channel=522
> 
> *NTV to increase capital and buy new trains?*
> Wednesday, March 11, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _FOLLOWING recent discussions between the board of Italian open-access high-speed operator NTV and trade unions, the operator has hinted at several reforms to achieve its goal of breaking even by 2020, including a capital increase of €70-100m and the purchase of six to 10 new high-speed trains_
> 
> The company's new CEO Mr Flavio Cattaneo, who took on the role on February 26, has made it a priority to tackle the company's €675m debt through a new 2015-2020 development plan
> 
> ...


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## Eiropro

KingNick said:


> Nah, 4:30 is still within the range to compete with planes. You won't be much faster going by plane as you'll have to go to the airport at least one hour early (cautious people tend to be there even earlier), be on your way to the destination, have your stuff collected and make it to the city again.


Well, in many airprots they close registration to airplane 1 hour before departure. So you have to be at least 1,5 hours before departure. Take in mind all luggage problem, queques and all that BS. I'd prefer train with cool views from the window. Take in mind delays, bad weather etc. etc. in airports.


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## brick84

*Highspeed Railwaly Station 'Mediopadana' in Reggio Emilia*


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## keber

Interesting design but I think it does not fit into surrounding at all. Much too artificial.


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## Suburbanist

keber said:


> Interesting design but I think it does not fit into surrounding at all. Much too artificial.


What surroundings? It is an exurban stations, close to a freeway and some industrial parks.


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## keber

And quite a lot of greenery. That's why this wavy structure doesn't fit here at all. A standard boxy design would fit better IMO.


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## Suburbanist

keber said:


> And quite a lot of greenery. That's why this wavy structure doesn't fit here at all. A standard boxy design would fit better IMO.


Then, if they built a design like this in the middle of the city, other people would complain 'it doesn't fit the historical styles of the area' :dunno: 

Where should post-modern, delocalized-style stations be built then?


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## ArtManDoo

IMO the new Reggio Emilia looks great from the outside at least. If the surrounding area was all green then the combination was great I think, fits into nature. But yes if to take a look from google maps then a lot of industrial surroundings can be seen. The station itself could make the surrounding area attractive for developers, also I can see a suburban line crossing the place. Maybe we will see some development in near future.


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## brick84

other pics...


h
MEDIOPADANA - REGGIO EMILIA by giuliano_bianchini, on Flickr


MEDIOPADANA - REGGIO EMILIA by giuliano_bianchini, on Flickr


Notturno (mediopadana) by Mauro T., on Flickr


Stazione Mediopadana RE by Ringo_rin, on Flickr


Stazione Mediopadana RE by Ringo_rin, on Flickr


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## Eddard Stark

Apparently (i do not have data) it is also a success in terms of passengers: it's a station in the middle of the countryside, mostly accessible just by car and within an area devoid of big cities. But with plenty of small cities. 

The number of trains making their call there has increased: it's a very confortable way for them to go to Rome, Florence, Naples and very competitive with airplanes.

Other similar "suburban" stations are planned on the italian network: Vesuvio Est in southern Campania and Napoli Afragola, which though sits in the middle of a very densely packed metro area but will have similar philosophy.


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## Eddard Stark

the good effects of competition. NTV and TI are trying to outdo each other

I am sure it will have good effect long term on both supply and the quality of it


----------



## Klausenburg

I'm curious what effect had on planes flying between Rome and Milan...


----------



## Eddard Stark

In 2007 about 2.4 million people flew Rome-Milan, mainly with Alitalia and high yields (sometimes very high yields)

In 2014 only 1.4 million people flew Rome-Milan, still dominated by Alitalia but with very low yields

In 2007 it was by far the most important national flight route in Italy, in 2014 it is the third, after the Rome-Catania and Rome-Palermo routes


----------



## Eddard Stark

As a comparison in the same period the Rome-Catania passed from 1,4 million passengers to almost 2 million

Without HSR, probably today the Milan-Rome route would be close or above the 3 million passengers


----------



## Eddard Stark

And this still does not factor in the reduction of time necessary between the two capitals of Italy.

Next year, if all goes well, the fastest trains will take only 2:20 minutes instead of 3 hours.

The route will be devastated I think, I cannot imagine many people still flying after that, except for hub-servicing reasons. But there are very few norther italians that use FCO as a hub


----------



## Sunfuns

Milan itself is the best hub in Italy for long distance flights, right?


----------



## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> Milan itself is the best hub in Italy for long distance flights, right?


It depends. Fiumicino has more intercontinental flights than Malpensa, but Milano airports have better flight connections to other European hubs.

Fiumicino also have double the movement of Malpensa. To prop Malpensa, they should close Linate altogether.

Alitalia did try to compete with the new high speed services in 2009 with "expedited check-in", promising "curbside to jetway" transit times of less then 25 minutes for boarding, it didn't work out though.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Sunfuns said:


> Milan itself is the best hub in Italy for long distance flights, right?


Milan Malpensa is not a Hub, so the question is pretty clear. There is only one, which is FCO

THEORETICALLY the best place in Italy to have a hub would be some place around Milan, with easy access from the rest of nord italy by train/car and without the competition of a nearby city airport

But - alas - that is not the case


----------



## Eddard Stark

Suburbanist said:


> Alitalia did try to compete with the new high speed services in 2009 with "expedited check-in", promising "curbside to jetway" transit times of less then 25 minutes for boarding, it didn't work out though.


That was their entire strategy

in a few years they had to be saved again, and the company sold to Abu Dhabi.

We are a bit OT, but it is interesting to see the impact of HSR on Alitalia

Some other data?

In 2007 the Milan-Naples connection (through Linate) ratched 840K passengers. In 2014 it was only 630K.

The overall number of passengers rose, so this is significant. Also considering Milan-Naples by train is still a longish journey


----------



## Eddard Stark

Another smallish route:

Verona-Rome

330K in 2007, less than 200K in 2014


----------



## Eddard Stark

Less impact in the Venice-Rome route

From 600K to 530K


----------



## Erwindg

Does anyone know what types of turnouts are used on the Italian High Speed Lines? I’m interested in the different possible speeds for the diverging tracks. I tried to measure some turnouts in the surrounding of Napoli (in Google Earth) and found a turnout length of about 125 m (between begin of the switch panel to the end of the crossing panel). I think this turnouts will allow a speed of 160 km/h. Perhaps higher speeds are not needed in Italy.

Is also known how the alignment of these turnouts is build? I prefer what I called the German alignment with a first transition curve from the turnout entry to the turnout curve and a second transition curve form the turnout curve to the turnout end. The other alignment is mostly used in France and has only the second transition curve. Resulting in a relative high jerk at the turnout entry.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## zsbuum

Hi!

I read that between Milan and Rome the High speed line will be upgraded from 300 km/h to 350 km/h because frecciarossa 1000 trainsets are capable of this speed. 
As I know it will be done this year, but does anybody know the exact date when this will happen?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## narkelion

It will be upgraded to 350km/h, yes, but not the entire line. Just the stretch Milano - Modena, AFAIK, and Rome-Naples.

Florence-Bologna and Chiusi - Rome will remain as they are now, 300 and 250 km/h. Chiusi - Florence will be upgraded to 300 km/h.

No idea about the date, though. Maybe with the December timetable change?


----------



## zsbuum

narkelion said:


> It will be upgraded to 350km/h, yes, but not the entire line. Just the stretch Milano - Modena, AFAIK, and Rome-Naples.
> 
> Florence-Bologna and Chiusi - Rome will remain as they are now, 300 and 250 km/h. Chiusi - Florence will be upgraded to 300 km/h.
> 
> No idea about the date, though. Maybe with the December timetable change?


Thanks for the detailed explanation narkelion!


----------



## Rebasepoiss

narkelion said:


> No idea about the date, though. Maybe with the December timetable change?


Nah, too bad, I'm probably taking the Naples-Rome train at the end of July. I was hoping it would be running at 350 km/h then. But 300 km/h is good enough :lol:


----------



## narkelion

zsbuum said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation narkelion!


I forgot about the Milan-Turin stretch, that will be upgraded to 350 km/h except a bend on Ticino River.


----------



## Rayancito

narkelion said:


> It will be upgraded to 350km/h, yes, but not the entire line. Just the stretch Milano - Modena, AFAIK, and Rome-Naples


Are those slab track?


----------



## Coccodrillo

No, AFAIK there aren't slab track sections in Italy, except some tunnels (like the two longest between Bolzano/Bozen and the Brenner Pass, on the Pondebbana railway and maybe in the Bologna city tunnel) and a test section between Rome and Florence (HSL).

And certainly there are no slab tracks on HSLs, excepts on the two sections cited above.


----------



## Stravinsky

zsbuum said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation narkelion!


Is this the reason why the travel time between Milan and Rome is to be cut by 40 minutes?

What are the before and after travel times between Milan and Naples?


----------



## narkelion

Stravinsky said:


> Is this the reason why the travel time between Milan and Rome is to be cut by 40 minutes?
> 
> What are the before and after travel times between Milan and Naples?


Not only. Florence HS underpass is U/C and will help a lot in decreasing travel times. 

I seriously doubt though that 40 minutes will be cut: it would mean an average speed of 245km/h, too high IMHO.


----------



## Stravinsky

narkelion said:


> Not only. Florence HS underpass is U/C and will help a lot in decreasing travel times.
> 
> I seriously doubt though that 40 minutes will be cut: it would mean an average speed of 245km/h, too high IMHO.


A couple of posts above yours Eddard Stark said the trip was going to be 2 hours 20 minutes.

The press seems to confirm this...


----------



## narkelion

Very unlikely to happen anytime soon. 

I guess we'll have to wait at least 3-5 years more.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Maybe considering the stations of Milan Rogoredo and Rome Tiburtina, located quite in the outskirts of these cities and near the ends of the HSL.

From these stations to the central ones around 10-15 minutes must be added on each side.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Coccodrillo said:


> Maybe considering the stations of Milan Rogoredo and Rome Tiburtina, located quite in the outskirts of these cities and near the ends of the HSL. From these stations to the central ones around 10-15 minutes must be added on each side.


Tiburtina is not in the outskirts. Anyway I agree, 2:40 seems more realistic but I had people saying 3h was impossible...


----------



## Rayancito

Coccodrillo said:


> No, AFAIK there aren't slab track sections in Italy, except some tunnels (like the two longest between Bolzano/Bozen and the Brenner Pass, on the Pondebbana railway and maybe in the Bologna city tunnel) and a test section between Rome and Florence (HSL).
> 
> And certainly there are no slab tracks on HSLs, excepts on the two sections cited above.


And how are the trains suposed to run at 350 Km/H?


----------



## davide84

...with rails posed on traditional ballast. They already reached 385,5 km/h running on ballast.


----------



## Rayancito

^^

I understand now, they are making big announcements....we will see what the reality actually bring us. The only commercial services at 350 Km/H where performed and then retrieved by the chinese.


----------



## zsbuum

Last year I asked in the Spain HSR forum:



> Hi!
> 
> I have a question that I can't find on the web (maybe I didn't search for it properly). There are lots of 350km/h tracks in Spain but one is still 310km/h: the Madrid Barcelona High Speed Line.
> Why it is still so "slow" (even raised once from 300 km/h)? I read that it had planned for 350km/h too and also the Siemens trainsets are capable of this speed. The line is probably one of the most important in the country and connects the 2 major cities...
> Thanks in advance!


and here is the answer:


437.001 said:


> ^^
> There is a technical issue in running trains at speeds over 320 km/h.
> Electric consumption goes skyrocketing over those speeds, and ballast may fly out of the trackbed.
> On the other hand, 300/320 km/h is a reasonably high speed, isn't it?


Is that ballast fly-out depends on train types or not? If not, I don't know how they will solve this problem. However the electric consumption is not a problem of new Frecciarossa 1000s and .NTV Italo AGV trainsets I guess.
(As I know the ETCS will be upgraded so the line will capable of this speed, the alignment of the line is already capable at these places, problems may occur only because the ballasted track)


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Yes there is a difference between trains, the Velaro and ICE 3M had more problems than TGV on the LGV Est to 320 km/h, the Talgo S-102 have more problems than Velaro S-103 in Spain at 310 km/h, ICE 1 and 2 are slowed on ballast in Germany. Part of the Tohoku Shinkansen traveling at 320 km/h on slab track. China was circulated to 350 km/h (now 309) on slab track.

I understand that going to circulate to 350 km/h will be on slab track, not on ballast.


----------



## Samply

Used the frecciarossa last week between Milan and Bologna and return, both times it stopped in the middle of nowhere accumulating around 20 minutes delays, maybe I was just unlucky but I am puzzled at talks of increasing the speed when it would be nice to see it functioning properly at the current speed


----------



## davide84

Gusiluz said:


> I understand that going to circulate to 350 km/h will be on slab track, not on ballast.


Trenitalia has been running tests at speeds > 350 km/h since months on a line with ballast. There are no reports of ETR.400 trainsets damaged by flying stones 

I think that the problem is solvable and they solved it.
Anyway, there is no chanche that RFI will ever replace 1000 km of ballast with slab tracks...

Regarding the actual use of 360 km/h in commercial service, many think that is a matter of opportunity. It is expensive, indeed: power consumption, additional maintenance to trainsets, additional maintenance on tracks, complicates the construction of the timetable... they may use it only for trains Milano-Roma with no intermediate calls, or just for a couple of years to get marketing advantage over the competitor NTV...

As far as I remember, the Chinese reduced the maximum speed of their trains after this crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision and the following criticism on HS operations. I hope that will not be the case in Italy


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Speed reduction in China was earlier, although everyone thinks otherwise. And it was for economic reasons.


Gusiluz said:


> From Wikipedia (in spanish, sorry, but sources are in english):
> “In April 2011, the new Minister of Railways Sheng Guangzu said that due to corruption, safety may have been compromised on some construction projects and completion dates may have to be pushed back.[44] Sheng announced that all trains in the high speed rail network would operate at a maximum speed of 300 km/h (186 mph) beginning on July 1, 2011
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4cd5723e-6685-11e0-ac4d-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss#axzz1Jn3JecpQ
> http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9MJ64RO0.htm
> http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90882/7351162.html
> This was in response to concerns over safety, low ridership due to high ticket prices,
> http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-high-speed-rail-dilemma-2011-1
> and high energy usage.
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703983104576262330447308782.html[/URL]
> On June 13, 2011, the MOR clarified in a press conference that the speed reduction was not due to safety concerns but to offer more affordable tickets for trains at 250 km/h (155 mph) and increase ridership. Higher speed train travel uses greater energy and imposes more wear on expensive machinery. Railway officials lowered the top speed of trains on most lines that were running at 350 km/h (217 mph) to 300 km/h (186 mph)”.
> ..........
> The Wenzhou train collision was July 23, 2011 on a reduced to 200 km/h line.
> ..........
> In China it is commercially circulated to 350 km/h between 01/08/2008 (Beijing-Tianjin) and at least 28/08/2011 (Wuhan-Guangzhou), to my knowledge. From 01/07/2011 was reduced line-to-line speed. CRH2C-2, CRH3C and CRH380A circulated at that speed were.


*Reducing the maximum speed in China and (null) regarding the accident of Wenzhou
*


Gusiluz said:


> Since it seems that no one answered, I will with my bad English. Sorry
> 
> The current maximum speed is 309 km/h, and was never circulated to 380 in commercial service.
> 
> Following the resignation (February 2011) for corruption of former Minister of Railways announced in April his successor a change in policy on HS: the speed of the HSR will be reduced from 350 to 300 km/h in July, and the rest of PDL from 250 to 200. The reasons given were: reducing energy consumption, lowering prices to fill the trains and for safety !!. Shortly after an "adjunct" nuance the words of his boss: the speed reduction would be only on lines with low occupancy and "of course" had nothing to do with security.
> 
> Meanwhile, on June 30, the Beijing-Shanghai line was inaugurated. It is the only projected to 380 km/h, but after many problems during testing was commissioned in 300, announcing the 350 "before year end" and 380 "some time later". In July presented problems of signaling and new trains CRH380A.
> July 1 became effective speed reduction on lines with low occupancy.
> 23 of the same month the accident Wenzhou. In this accident he had nothing to do speed, so they have told: there was a storm, the first train (CRH1B # 46) stopped by a failure in a substation, signals broke down, it was getting dark ... and the second train ( the CRH2E No. 139, both entitled to 250 km/h) hit the first train.
> In that vein, the SE Coastal PDL, full speed before July 1 was 250, and at that time was reduced, so the accident occurred in a limited line and 200 km/h. I do not know how fast the scope occurred, although it would not be too high: they derailed the last 2 and the first 4 cars; the problem is that it was on a viaduct and 3 of them fell into the void.
> After the accident nor the maximum speed of 350 km/h was reduced immediately, but in stages: during August fell at least between Beijing and Tianjin (16), Shanghai-Hangzhou and Wuhan-Guangzhou (the 28). Also in August, but nothing seems to indicate a relationship, all trains were 380A factory to make changes, since continued to fail.


Obviously replacing ballast for slab tracks is not an option.

In Spain, a Velaro circulated to 403 km/h in tests.


The Spanish section to 310 km/h requires a special maintenance and the ballast is located a few centimeters below the sleepers.


----------



## Sunfuns

Gusiluz said:


> ]
> The Spanish section to 310 km/h requires a special maintenance and the ballast is located a few centimeters below the sleepers.


Just 10 km/h extra makes so much difference?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Yes, they have lowered 4 cm ballast to increase 10 km/h, although you can say that it is a test, not something useful: are only allowed 310 km/h for a few trains and are all Velaro.

Another attempted solution has been the Aerotraviesa (Aero-sleeper), which prevents stones from getting above the sleeper after the passage of a train.

A video from ADIF with stones flying.


----------



## davide84

Very nice video. What I see is not flying stones; they show moving test cubes, and they move only because they were manually placed on top the sleepers, in the middle of the air turbulence. They didn't fly, they fell in the space between the sleepers.

Anyway, it clearly demonstrates that there is come interaction between air flow and stones, and it should be studied before increasing speed (as ADIF is doing).


----------



## Suburbanist

I'm a bif fan of ballastless tracks, and I wish Italy had used more of it when building the high speed lines (a moot point by now, I concede).

They are much smoother and require far less maintenance.


----------



## Sunfuns

Isn't there also a stretch in France (Mulhouse-Dijon line) where speeds up to 320 km/h are allowed in commercial traffic? I don't think there is a ballastless track there either.


----------



## davide84

Suburbanist said:


> They are much smoother and require far less maintenance.


FS/RFI experimented ballastless track on the northern stretch of the new "Pontebbana" line from Udine to Tarvisio/Austria, opened in 2000; since then, at least part of it has been reconverted to ballast configuration. Apparently, slab tracks have other problems, at least that type of.

I haven't much more details, I can report this:


> questo nuovo sistema (a suo tempo presentato con lo slogan "quasi come volare") ha mostrato sempre più incrinature e segni di cedimento,e, come è stato ricordato,sul binario dispari la velocità è stata ridotta,rallentamento in orario,da 180 a 80
> _this new system (at the time presented as "just like flying) showed increasing cracks and signs of fatigue, and, as remembered by others, on one of the two tracks the speed was reduced from 180 to 80 km/h_
> http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?p=739371#p739371


the guy writing this is an author of books and articles on the railways of the area.


----------



## 1772

Are there any plans to have a high speed line between Genova and Firenze? Perhaps going along the coast via La Spezia to Pisa and then Firenze? 

It would connect middle/southern Italy to western Europe.


----------



## Suburbanist

1772 said:


> Are there any plans to have a high speed line between Genova and Firenze? Perhaps going along the coast via La Spezia to Pisa and then Firenze?
> 
> It would connect middle/southern Italy to western Europe.


Very difficult terrain, there is a project to link Milano with Genova with a high-speed link. In any case, the line to France through the coast is too slow, the real France-Itally connection will be the Torino-Lyon high speed line, which connects to high-speed lines in Italy and France. It will probably faster to travel Firenze-Marseille via Milano, Torino, Lyon than through the coast.


----------



## Gusiluz

*Number of high-speed passenger*

*Passengers in Frecce* (Trenitalia) HS trains (millions)
1989: 0,500
1990: 0,695
1991: 0,800
1992: 0,901
1993:
1994:
1995:
1996: 3,348
1997:
1998:
1999:
2000: 15,510
2001:
2002:
2003:
2004: 20,712
2005:
2006:
2007: 23,430
2008: 23,882
2009: 33,374
2010: 35,155
2011: 37,941
2012: 39,838
2013: 42,000
2014:
2015:

Source: (2009/2011) Eurostat Transport: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do Bilancio trenitalia 2011: http://www.fsitaliane.it/cms-file/allegati/fsitaliane/Bilancio_trenitalia_2011.pdf Ambiente, più passeggeri sulle Frecce meno Co2: nel 2012 emissioni abbattute di ulteriori 60mila tonnellate: http://www.fsnews.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=cdaefbab4644d310VgnVCM1000008916f90aRCRD Le Frecce Trenitalia per l'ambiente: in 2013 oltre un milione di tonnellate di CO2 in meno nell'aria: http://www.fsnews.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=5705fadfe3c14410VgnVCM1000008916f90aRCRD

*Passengers in Italo* (NTV) HS trains (millions)
2012: 2,052
2013: 6,199
2014: 6,600
2015: 9,100
TOTAL: 23,951

Source: Italo supera il muro dei 2 milioni di passeggeri nel 2012: http://www.ntvspa.it/it/ntv/pagine/...uro-dei-2-milioni-di-passeggeri-nel-2012.html NTV Bilancio 2013: http://www.ntvspa.it/ntvupload/utils/12012015_044153NTV Bilancio 2013 ENG.pdf y Ferrovie.it: http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=29797&start=6675 El operador privado italiano NTV transportó 9,1 millones de viajeros en 2015: http://www.vialibre-ffe.com/noticias.asp?not=19789&cs=inte

*Passengers-kilometers in Frecce* (Trenitalia) HS trains (billions)
1989: 0,200
1990: 0,300
1991: 0,400
1992: 0,400
1993: 0,500
1994: 0,800
1995: 1,100
1996: 1,300
1997: 2,400
1998: 3,640
1999: 4,460
2000: 5,090
2001: 6,760
2002: 7,080
2003: 7,430
2004: 7,925
2005: 8,550
2006: 8,910
2007: 8,820
2008: 8,877
2009: 10,746
2010: 11,610
2011: 12,283
2012: 12,310
2013: 13,277
2014:
2015:
TOTAL: 145,168

Source: UIC

*Passengers-kilometers in Italo* (NTV) HS trains (billions)
2012: 0,484
2013:
2014:
2015:
TOTAL:

Source: calculated from the UIC data unless the Frecce passengers from Trenitalia.

Trenitalia (FdS) only publishes Frecce train travelers data. The Premium long distance division includes Frecciabianca trains, traveling at up to 200 km/h on high-speed lines, although most of its route is done by conventional lines; Frecciargento trains (250 km/h) alternating both types of lines, and Frecciarossa (300 km/h) which usually run on high-speed lines.



Passengers and Passengers-kilometers world data, and explanation of the fact that the operators and the UIC count -in some cases- the number of passengers on high-speed trains, not on high-speed lines.


----------



## Da18be

Frecciarossa 1000 and Italo NTV at Milano Centrale FS


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-naples-bari-high-speed-line.html?channel=523
> 
> *Tendering begins for Naples - Bari high-speed line*
> Friday, July 15, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ITALFERR, the engineering subsidiary of Italian State Railways (FS), published a tender notice in the Official Journal of the European Union on July 9 for a contract to design and build the first section of the €6.2bn Naples - Bari high-speed line_
> 
> The contract has an estimated value of around €400m and covers the 15.5km Naples Afragola - Cancello section of the line
> 
> ...


----------



## Nexis

*Milan–Bologna high-speed railway. Frecciarossa, Frecciarossa 1000, .Italo*


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ins-on-treviglio-brescia-hsl.html?channel=523
> 
> *Testing begins on Treviglio - Brescia HSL*
> Thursday, August 18, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _HIGH-SPEED testing is underway on the Treviglio - Brescia high-speed line in preparation for the start of commercial operations in December_
> 
> To gain certification for 300km/h operation from the National Authority for Railway Safety (ANSF), an ETR 1000 Frecciarossa set is being tested at speeds of up to 330km/h. A Trenitalia ETR 500 high-speed train has been used for ETCS Level 2 testing
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-more-pendolinos-from-alstom.html?channel=529
> 
> *NTV orders more Pendolinos from Alstom*
> Wednesday, September 07, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _THE president of Italian open-access operator NTV Mr Andrea Faragalli and Mr Michele Viale, managing director of Alstom Italy signed a contract in Rome on September 7 for the supply and maintenance of four additional Pendolino tilting trains_
> 
> The agreement also extends the maintenance term for the eight Pendolino sets ordered by NTV last October from 20 to 30 years
> 
> ...


----------



## 33Hz

Tilting or non-tilting?

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...view/view/ntv-exercises-pendolino-option.html


I know the idea of a non-tilting Pendolino seems strange.


----------



## Silly_Walks

33Hz said:


> I know the idea of a non-tilting Pendolino seems strange.


I think most Pendolino's on this planet are non-tilting. China and Poland come to mind.


----------



## M-NL

China and Poland together have about 170 non-tilting sets. All Italian variants and the British class 390 together already gives you about the same number, so when you add the Spanish, Finnish, Czech, Slovenian and Swiss sets currently the tilting models are still in the majority. 

I haven't counted the ICE T, because despite using pendolino technology they weren't built by FIAT or Alstom.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Spanish trains S-114 are also New Pendolino not tilting.

I found no place to say that Evo trains are tilting. So they will be used only in HSR, although not understand.

And I say: tilting, and not: natural pendulous, as this is a proprietary technology Talgo: "Pendular by Talgo" (not tilting, cars are not inclined supported by the boogies but hanging: like a pendulum)


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Silly_Walks said:


> I think most Pendolino's on this planet are non-tilting. China and Poland come to mind.


Anyway '_Pendolino_' originally was Italian nickname of the the train which tilts making a sort of pendulum movement


----------



## Suburbanist

I want to see 300km/h tilting trains


----------



## Suburbanist

Speaking of _pendolinos_, there is an interesting video of the pre-HSL era in Italy when tilting trains were the only way to speed up travel





bonus: weirdly dressed mid-1980 adult passengers :shifty:


----------



## 1772

Are there any plans of a high speed line along the east coast?
Something like; Milano-Parma-Bologna-Rimini-Pescara-Bari?


----------



## narkelion

No, no way.

That line will be enhanced and updated to 200 km/h, nothing more than that. 

A HSL on the Adriatic coast would mean destroying the environment cutting again the land, like A14, actual line and SS16 already do. The only way would be to build in inland, meaning 80% of tunnels or so.

Unbearable.


----------



## Nexis

*[4K] Train Spotting Italian high speed ETR 500, ETR600, ETR575*


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...k-grows-as-brescia-treviglio-route-opens.html
> 
> *High speed network grows as Brescia – Treviglio route opens*
> 12 Dec 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ITALY: A further section of the high speed railway across the north of the country opened for traffic with the European timetable change on December 11. The previous day, inauguration ceremonies included a celebratory run using an ETR1000 trainset carrying Transport Minister Graziano Delrio and other local and national dignitaries
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/.../ntvs-first-pendolino-italo-car-unveiled.html
> 
> *NTV’s first Pendolino Italo car unveiled*
> 15 Dec 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ITALY: Alstom unveiled the first vehicle from a fleet of 12 Pendolino trainsets it is supplying to private high speed operator NTV at its Savigliano works on December 15.
> 
> The driving car is the first vehicle to be completed under a €460m contract initially finalised in October 2015. This covered the supply of eight non-tilting 250 km/h trainsets, which will have seven cars and seats for 480 passengers. A further four trains were ordered in December through an option held by NTV. The Pendolino fleet is due to be delivered by December 2017, with entry into service planned for March 2018
> 
> ...


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ Is NTV planning to expand its services to other lines or are they going to use these trains only on lines that allow a maximum of 250 km/h, e.g. Rome-Florence?


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## Eddard Stark

Milan-Venice for sure, they confirmed it. It will also work well on other mixed routes like Bolzano-Verona-Rome and Venice-Rome


----------



## narkelion

And maybe some services from North West to the east coast, like Torino-Milano-Ancona.


----------



## narkelion

BTW, why did they call it "Pendolino" if it's a non-tilting train?


----------



## Suburbanist

AGV is a superior product to this faux Pendolino!


----------



## zsbuum

Hi! 
The european timetable changed on December 11 and there were promises that on some part of the Italian high speed network the Vmax will be raised from 300 to 350 km/h. 
They tested the new Frecciarossa trainsets and reached a new speed record but no further news regarding to this speed raising. 
I would like to ask if it means they will only make these changes on the next timetable change date or is there any other possibility? 
Thanks in advance!


----------



## narkelion

They're still testing and doing improvement works. Some parts may be raised from 300 to 320 with no engineering work, but I reckon they won't do it unless all HS network is updated.


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## Suburbanist

They should aim for 110-115 min non-strop travel time between Roma Tiburtina and Milano Rogoredo in the long term, between high-speed tilting trains, faster traffic on tunnels etc.


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## narkelion

110 min means 300 km/h of average and commercial speed.

Impossible.


----------



## Suburbanist

narkelion said:


> 110 min means 300 km/h of average and commercial speed.
> 
> Impossible.


274 actually.

Notice I'm not referring to Roma Termini - Milano Centrale. 

I'm counting on works to speed up the Diretissima Roma-Firenze to 350km/h, the completion of the new tunnel and station at Firenze C. Marte, and tilting high-speed trains (which are technologically viable already, but deemed too expensive for the time being).


----------



## narkelion

350 km/h on the DD Roma Firenze it's virtually impossible because the first part of it, from Roma to Chiusi, has too small tunnels. To reach 300kph the two tracks need to be at a certain distance, and in that stretch they're too close. Speed will be improved probably to 275 kph but no more than that.

On the second stretch, Chiusi to Rovezzano, speed limit will be increased to 300 kph once all major works finish. They need to install ERMTS L2 and switch all the DD line from 3kV DC to 25kV AC. This means that all regional trains running on the stretches Arezzo - Rovezzano and Roma - Orte must be updated to ERMTS L2 and must work with both 3kV DC and 25kV AC. No regional train in Italy can do so, as of today.

The new station in Firenze won't be completed. The project is on hold for now.

The Bologna underpass is at a max speed of 90kph and there are no plan to improve it (since it is basically new)

From Bologna to Modena the speed limit is 240kph and will be probably improved to 275 ONLY if Trenitalia accepts the fact that if those works are done, no freight train can run on the HSL between Bologna and Modena (none run as of today, but at least there is the possibility).

Reaching 274kph of commercial speed is impossible in a line where the first 15 km have speeds between 30 and 110 kph, following 250km won't be more than 300 and half of it never more than 275, then the underpasses of Firenze and Bologna, both at 90kph, then the S curve at Modena and the last 15km into Milano with speeds from 110 to 30 km/h.

Tilting won't change a thing. ETR 600 and 485 are tilting trains but as of today tilting on those stock is deactivated on HSL because it's useless.


----------



## brick84

*Nola (Naples)*















by _*Gianfranco Berto*_


----------



## Nexis

Train Spotting @ Ponzano Romano - Frecciarossa, Frecciarossa1000, Frecciargento, italo, Intercity


----------



## Negjana

@narkelion and others: Do you know anything about the sections Brescia-Verona and Verona-Vicenza-Padova? What speeds are they going to be built for and when will they be constructed?

Also what is the current max speed allowed on the Padova-Mestre section? Will it be raised once the Verona-Vicenza-Padova section is constructed?

Thank you!


----------



## narkelion

Negjana said:


> @narkelion and others: Do you know anything about the sections Brescia-Verona and Verona-Vicenza-Padova? What speeds are they going to be built for and when will they be constructed?
> 
> Also what is the current max speed allowed on the Padova-Mestre section? Will it be raised once the Verona-Vicenza-Padova section is constructed?
> 
> Thank you!


Padova - Mestre max speed should be 230 kmh. But it is a very short stretch and it's going to remain that way even after the HSL will be completely built.

Brescia - Verona will be at 300 km/h. Verona - Padova is still unknown. AFAIK they haven't decided yet if they want a true HSL with 300 km/h max speed or a slower 250 fast link between cities (Verona, Vicenza, Padova).

The main problem is Vicenza, in fact. They don't know whether to skip it or include it. In the second case, though, a 300 km/h line would be useless because distances are too small to actually feel the difference in time between 300 and 250 kph.


----------



## Negjana

And do you know the schedule of Brescia-Verona?

Other question: Any news on the southern extension of the Naples-Salerno line? Any news on the Mestre-Trieste project?

Is Terzo Valico dei Giovi under full construction?

Thank you for your patience


----------



## narkelion

No, I'm afraid Ihave no idea about start date for works on the Brescia Verona. 

Southern Tirrenica line won't be built as an HSL. There will be major renovating on site, though, to upgrade all line (well, majority of it) to 125mph/200kph.

Terzo Valico is still happily under full construction, yep.


----------



## JumpUp

Good Morning!

I have a question concerning the Italian rolling stock and changes that are made by introducing the new ETR 400. It's now more than one year that those new "Frecciarossa 1000" have entered service. 
There will be 50 new trains in total by 2017.

My question: What will be the effect on the other Italian rolling stock?
Some old ETR 500 are now running between Torino - Milano - Venezia.

Will there be old rolling stock withdrawn? 
Major changes in Frecciabianca or Frecciargento services? 
What's the future for conventional IC trains?

With having 50 new High speed trains, surely some older will be retired.

Thanks!


----------



## MarcVD

As far as I remember, some of this stock was ordered to launch new services abroad so it will not entirely replace existing stock. 

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## Negjana

Which services abroad?


----------



## MarcVD

I do not now of anything officially announced. But there were rumors about competing with SNCF & SNCB on Paris - Brussels and other things like that. May be that was just daydreaming. I remember FS was quite upset at SNCF for their stake in Thello at the time and their intention to retaliate. May be that faded away since. But the new trains were conceived with that objective in mind. 

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## narkelion

Negjana said:


> I'm not talking about building new lines.
> 
> Frecciabianca services run between Rome and Genova about every 120 minutes, and most of them take 4 hours 46 minutes between Genova Brignole and Roma Termini. These services run on the coastal line between Rome and Pisa via Grosseto and Livorno.
> 
> There is one service though between Roma Termini and Genova Brignole that makes the trip in 4 hours 8 minutes, and only 4 hours on the way back. That service runs on the high speed line from Rome to Florence, then on the conventional line from Florence to Genova via Empoli - Pisa - La Spezia.
> 
> So I am surprised that there aren't more of those "fast" services which reduce the journey time by about 45 minutes.


Roma - Firenze DD line is packed with trains in the Roma - Orte and Valdarno - Firenze stretches. It's really expensive to add more HS trains there.

Moreover, those DD services to Genova were usually empty, in fact Trenitalia removed them from schedule with the Winter timetable, but then reinstated them with part of the cost payed by Regione Liguria.


----------



## Sunfuns

narkelion said:


> Moreover, those DD services to Genova were usually empty, in fact Trenitalia removed them from schedule with the Winter timetable, but then reinstated them with part of the cost payed by Regione Liguria.


Are you saying the train was empty between Florence and Genoa? Because the first stretch is just a regular Rome-Florence train and surely not empty. Actually is there a regular Florence-Genoa train not originating in Rome?


----------



## Suburbanist

When the new HS line Milano-Genova is completed it will be faster to travel all the way through Bologna and Milano than via the coastal route. Especially if they put through services not calling at Milano Centrale and reversing there


----------



## narkelion

No, it won't. Going throuh Florence - Pisa will still be faster and way cheaper than going through HSL via Milano or Piacenza.


----------



## narkelion

Sunfuns said:


> Are you saying the train was empty between Florence and Genoa? Because the first stretch is just a regular Rome-Florence train and surely not empty. Actually is there a regular Florence-Genoa train not originating in Rome?


No Florence - Genova HST, no. Only regional or InterCity I guess. Not sure.

Those two trains per day are very ealry in the morning and late at night, so very few actually used them for the whole journey (Roma - Genova). They are more used for the two legs Roma - Firenze and Firenze - Genova rather than the whole trip.


----------



## Gusiluz

According to the Spanish specialized magazine Vía Libre, the changes in Italy are:



> A new FrecciaRossa Milan-Roma-Taranto is created with the most modern material of Trenitalia, ETR 1000
> A new FrecciaRossa (also with ETR 1000) is added Brescia-Milan-Rome; A second FrecciaArgento Roma-Bergamo and two new FrecciaRossa Rome-Milan were created, bringing the number of Trenitalia services in ordinary days between the two cities to 94.
> With the opening of the Milan-Brescia high-speed section, ten minutes are earned on the Milan-Venice route, allowing the introduction of new FrecciaRossa services (now majority) in the Turin-Milan-Venice corridor.
> Finally, it introduces 1 FrecciaArgento instead of an IC between Rome and Reggio di Calabria, avoiding the entrance in Naples Centrale and reducing in twenty-five minutes the route.
> At the international level, one of the services EC Verona-Munich is permanently extended to Bologna, rather than only in season.
> Private operator NTV increases its Italo outbound services between Rome and Naples from thirty to 34.


----------



## roaddor

Hi,

What is the current speed limit of the railways Torino-Genova and Genova-Milano? They are planned to be upgraded up to 300km/h, aren't they?


----------



## narkelion

roaddor said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is the current speed limit of the railways Torino-Genova and Genova-Milano? They are planned to be upgraded up to 300km/h, aren't they?


No. No 300 km/h at all.

Milano - Genova is split basically in two stretches, first one having 180/200 km/h limit and second one topping at way less. 

But they're building the "Terzo Valico" which will increase speed to 230/250 km/h all the way from Genova to Tortona. 

From Torino, nothing will change. But trains from there to Genova will reach Novi Ligure on the old line and then they'll go via the new Terzo Valico. 

Torino - Alessandria line speed varies, but mostly is 150-160-180 km/h (maximum permitted with 4-code BACC system).
Alessandria - Novi - Arquata Scrivia line speed varies more, from 80km/h to 180km/h.


----------



## Suburbanist

Italian railway old alignments are not necessarily bad, but from a historical perspective the SCMT (sistema controllo marcia treno) held speeds and operational efficiency back.


----------



## narkelion

And still is way more efficient and safe compared to some very old systems, like AWS in UK.


----------



## Suburbanist

narkelion said:


> And still is way more efficient and safe compared to some very old systems, like AWS in UK.


Sure.

The major limitation of SCMT is that is doesn't have double feedback to confirm input into train safety system.


----------



## Negjana

Well that surprises me that demand for Rome - Genova trains is that low! But it makes sense knowing that the line between Rome and Florence is pretty full.

What is the minimum time between trains on that line? 5 minutes?


----------



## narkelion

Negjana said:


> Well that surprises me that demand for Rome - Genova trains is that low! But it makes sense knowing that the line between Rome and Florence is pretty full.
> 
> What is the minimum time between trains on that line? 5 minutes?


No way, it's more.

10,8km minimum distance, but at least 5x5400m (red-yellow-green-medium green-super green) to have full speed allowance.

I'd say that is at least 10 minutes theoretically.


----------



## roaddor

narkelion said:


> No. No 300 km/h at all.
> 
> Milano - Genova is split basically in two stretches, first one having 180/200 km/h limit and second one topping at way less.
> 
> But they're building the "Terzo Valico" which will increase speed to 230/250 km/h all the way from Genova to Tortona.
> 
> From Torino, nothing will change. But trains from there to Genova will reach Novi Ligure on the old line and then they'll go via the new Terzo Valico.
> 
> Torino - Alessandria line speed varies, but mostly is 150-160-180 km/h (maximum permitted with 4-code BACC system).
> Alessandria - Novi - Arquata Scrivia line speed varies more, from 80km/h to 180km/h.


OK thanks. I thought these lines would become tails of the so called main NS high-speed backbone Milano-Salerno. Genova is an important freight destination and an upgrade to 230-250km/h from Milano/Zurich will also do. Torino on the other hand is not so far away from the joint at Novi Ligure.


----------



## davide84

Suburbanist said:


> The major limitation of SCMT is that is doesn't have double feedback to confirm input into train safety system.


It was also implemented without discarding nor updating old rules that slow down operations. As an example: if a train enters a station with the green light, but the following signal to exit the station is red, the train has to proceed at 30 km/h until it stops for service. It is forbidden to enter the station at, say, 60 km/h, and then brake only when close to the stopping point. Therefore, if the entering signal is placed quite far from the platform, the train can run for a couple of minutes at 30 km/h or even less, because the driver doesn't want to risk a full stop commanded by SCMT.
And if you multiply these 2 extra minutes for each stop along a line...
And if you consider that some station/line managers couldn't care less about preparing the second signal to green to avoid this, even when they could...


----------



## Slagathor

narkelion said:


> No. No 300 km/h at all.
> 
> Milano - Genova is split basically in two stretches, first one having 180/200 km/h limit and second one topping at way less.
> 
> But they're building the "Terzo Valico" which will increase speed to 230/250 km/h all the way from Genova to Tortona.
> 
> From Torino, nothing will change. But trains from there to Genova will reach Novi Ligure on the old line and then they'll go via the new Terzo Valico.
> 
> Torino - Alessandria line speed varies, but mostly is 150-160-180 km/h (maximum permitted with 4-code BACC system).
> Alessandria - Novi - Arquata Scrivia line speed varies more, from 80km/h to 180km/h.


I was impressed with the speed between Torino and Genova, faster than any regular IC in Holland (until the mountains slow you down).


----------



## eu01

A good map of "Terzo Valico" can be found here.


----------



## M-NL

davide84 said:


> It was also implemented without discarding nor updating old rules that slow down operations. As an example: if a train enters a station with the green light, but the following signal to exit the station is red, the train has to proceed at 30 km/h until it stops for service. It is forbidden to enter the station at, say, 60 km/h, and then brake only when close to the stopping point. Therefore, if the entering signal is placed quite far from the platform, the train can run for a couple of minutes at 30 km/h or even less, because the driver doesn't want to risk a full stop commanded by SCMT.
> And if you multiply these 2 extra minutes for each stop along a line...
> And if you consider that some station/line managers couldn't care less about preparing the second signal to green to avoid this, even when they could...


You are describing the unavoidable behaviour any older ATC system without full curve monitoring will have (and I mean a system that like ETCS calculates where you have to start braking to stop in time and allow track speed up to that point). You could ease that by using shorter blocks or moving the distant signal closer to the stopping point.
Now eventually this will be solved when ERTMS is introduced. But that will probably be a while.


----------



## x-type

is there a map of Freccia services to see where operates Frecciabianca, where Frecciargento, and where Frecciarossa?


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## brick84

^^


----------



## narkelion

There will be a lot of parking spaces, of course. 

But they're building and designing a branch of the metro L10 that will bring people there.

And if I remember correctly they are planning to bring there a regional railway and a line of the Circumvesuviana too.


----------



## Sunfuns

narkelion said:


> But they're building and designing a branch of the metro L10 that will bring people there.


English language Wikipedia says that this project has been abandoned due to luck of funding. Is that wrong? If so how advanced is the project?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_10_(Naples_Metro)


----------



## narkelion

The page hasn't been updated, I guess. They started talking about L10 again in November due to the future opening of Afragola. 

I'm afraid I'm not finding anything in english, though. 

http://www.napolitoday.it/cronaca/linea-10-collegamento-tav-afragola-lavori.html


----------



## Suburbanist

Napoli Afragola is part of a larger project encompassing a direct link between the higher speed line Salerno-Napoli ("linea a monte del Vesuvio" officially) and the Roma-Napoli line, a direct link between the old coastal line and that higher speed line to Salerno, and extra grade separation on the approach to Napoli Centrale. The station is one of the last components of the whole project.

It will speed up services like Roma-Reggio Calabria by up to 25 min without dropping the stop at Napoli metro area.


----------



## brick84

They talk about 'May 2017' for opening.


----------



## narkelion

Makes sense. On the 11th of June the summer timetable starts. I reckon they'll need at least 1 month for the official and unofficial tests and approvals.


----------



## Napo

Sunfuns said:


> English language Wikipedia says that this project has been abandoned due to luck of funding. Is that wrong? If so how advanced is the project?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_10_(Naples_Metro)


The project was resumed. It was already approved a loan of €300 million for the first part of the new subway line that will link the Napoli-Afragola station and subway Line 1.


----------



## Slagathor

Suburbanist said:


> Napoli Afragola is part of a larger project encompassing a direct link between the higher speed line Salerno-Napoli ("linea a monte del Vesuvio" officially) and the Roma-Napoli line, a direct link between the old coastal line and that higher speed line to Salerno, and extra grade separation on the approach to Napoli Centrale. The station is one of the last components of the whole project.
> 
> It will speed up services like Roma-Reggio Calabria by up to 25 min without dropping the stop at Napoli metro area.


I get that you'd have to get around Napoli Centrale in order to go from Rome to Reggio at high speed. But will there still be high speed services doing Milano Centrale to Napoli Centrale (for example)? Or is Centrale going to be a stop for lower speed services?


----------



## Suburbanist

Slagathor said:


> I get that you'd have to get around Napoli Centrale in order to go from Rome to Reggio at high speed. But will there still be high speed services doing Milano Centrale to Napoli Centrale (for example)? Or is Centrale going to be a stop for lower speed services?


Most (I guess > 75% or so) high-speed services from the North and Italo services will still end/start at Napoli Centrale. There is not enough demand to send all services to Salerno.

Most fast services between Roma Termini and points south of Napoli will bypass Napoli Cle, I guess.

There will be some (not many) fast services Salerno - Napoli Afragola - Roma Tiburtina - Firenze Campo di Marte - Bologna Cle. - Milano Porta Garibaldi - Torino Porta Susa, I guess, when all building works in Firenze also end.

Matter of fact is that the position of major stations in Milano (Centrale), Firenze (SM Novella), Roma (Termini), Napoli (Centrale) are all bad for through services, requiring trains to reverse and slog around congested approaches. Terminus stations are easy to navigate and they make for impressive halls and what else, but they penalize through service a lot.


----------



## Slagathor

Is there a city considering an elegant (but expensive) solution like Antwerp did?


----------



## Suburbanist

Slagathor said:


> Is there a city considering an elegant (but expensive) solution like Antwerp did?


Well, they are building a new 7km high-speed line tunnel, with a station, in Firenze. The project is moving very slowly and problems with Mafia infiltration and subsequent prosecution have rescinded some of the contracts.

Making Milano Centrale into a through station would be a € 12+ bn. project, requiring extensive works as it interferes with subway and the Passante tunnels, among other things. There is also no way rail traffic could cope with being disrupted while the approach would be lowered (Milano C.le platforms are some 8m above street level, and a perpendicular subway line crosses in front of the station). The right thing to do (now a lost opportunity) would have been to massively expand Milano Porta Garibaldi and to have built the Passante with 4 extra through tracks, in addition to the ones already there serving the S system. 

Napoli Centrale is fundamentally affected by geography. No space for a through link from the existing newer high(er) speed lines (unless one wanted to tunnel under the Mt Vesuvio :shifty:, or make a tight U-shaped loop with a new through station rotated 90-degree - like in Koln, Germany, but much harder and underground)

Excavating west of Roma Termini would be the largest archaeological project ever.


----------



## Negjana

Milano has Lambrate, Firenze will have Belfiore, Roma has Tiburtina, what is the problem?


----------



## narkelion

The uselessness of those stations compared to the real mobility attraction nodes.


----------



## Negjana

All mentioned cities still have a lot of services to the main stations.


----------



## narkelion

Exactly.

And the main station remain as of today and will remain tomorrow the most attractive station in the city. 

Milan is probably a good exception, since the combo Rogoredo+Garibaldi iss good enough that Centrale may be skipped for many trains. 

They tried in Rome to divert all FrecciaRossa and FrecciaArgento from Termini to Tiburtina to make them way faster on the way to/from Napoli, jumping all the stretch Tiburtina - Termini and Termini - Tiburtina, but it failed miserably. 
Today only 2 trains/day jump Termini.


----------



## Slagathor

So I assume that the construction of these new stations like Afragola will come with easy cross-platform transfers into the city and stuff? That would be perfectly fine given the distances and the time saved. 

If you did that in a small country like Holland, high speed rail would lose its purpose because the distances are too short. But if you can take a high speed train from Milano Garibaldi to Napoli Afragola + an easy transfer to Napoli Centrale... That would be fine. It would still be much faster than a regular IC.



Suburbanist said:


> Well, they are building a new 7km high-speed line tunnel, with a station, in Firenze. The project is moving very slowly and problems with Mafia infiltration and subsequent prosecution have rescinded some of the contracts.
> 
> Making Milano Centrale into a through station would be a € 12+ bn. project, requiring extensive works as it interferes with subway and the Passante tunnels, among other things. There is also no way rail traffic could cope with being disrupted while the approach would be lowered (Milano C.le platforms are some 8m above street level, and a perpendicular subway line crosses in front of the station). The right thing to do (now a lost opportunity) would have been to massively expand Milano Porta Garibaldi and to have built the Passante with 4 extra through tracks, in addition to the ones already there serving the S system.
> 
> Napoli Centrale is fundamentally affected by geography. No space for a through link from the existing newer high(er) speed lines (unless one wanted to tunnel under the Mt Vesuvio :shifty:, or make a tight U-shaped loop with a new through station rotated 90-degree - like in Koln, Germany, but much harder and underground)
> 
> Excavating west of Roma Termini would be the largest archaeological project ever.


Thanks! Very interesting!

Digging under Vesuvius lol  I remember when I first moved there I was astounded to see they had any subway tunnels at all; I figured there were (old) lava chambers and stuff all over the place.


----------



## Eddard Stark

The purpose of Afragola is to give a HSR service to the area north of Naples AND at the same time cut the time of travel from Rome to Calabria.

Let's understand. 

There will be at least 2 kind of services:

Milan-Bologna-Florence-Rome-Naples: these will end up in Napoli Centrale, no doubt. BUt some will probably also stop at Afragola. For people leaving in the northern part of the very large Naples metropolitan area it is disadvantageous to go to Napoli Centrale to go to Milan. Boarding in Afragola would cut the real time of the trip by at least 40 minutes, in a door-to-door scenario. And this for million people, a city bigger than Florence or BOlogna

Then there will be the services (Milan)-Rome-Reggio Calabria. 

In this case the stop at Afragola will allow to cut 20-30 minutes travel time for the trains going south. Since most traffic from Calabria is to Rome (and not to Naples) this is in general very advantageous. For the few that will want to go to Naples proper, there will be other services to get to centrale.


----------



## Tower Dude

narkelion said:


> Exactly.
> 
> And the main station remain as of today and will remain tomorrow the most attractive station in the city.
> 
> Milan is probably a good exception, since the combo Rogoredo+Garibaldi iss good enough that Centrale may be skipped for many trains.
> 
> They tried in Rome to divert all FrecciaRossa and FrecciaArgento from Termini to Tiburtina to make them way faster on the way to/from Napoli, jumping all the stretch Tiburtina - Termini and Termini - Tiburtina, but it failed miserably.
> Today only 2 trains/day jump Termini.




Any idea why Tiburtina failed? What's the because it was outside the city center?


----------



## narkelion

Tower Dude said:


> Any idea why Tiburtina failed? What's the because it was outside the city center?


Yes.

Outside of the city center and on the other side of the city's business district of EUR, and not vvery well connected to them both (line B, Rebibbia Branch has a frequency of 5-10min).


----------



## Tower Dude

narkelion said:


> Yes.
> 
> Outside of the city center and on the other side of the city's business district of EUR, and not vvery well connected to them both (line B, Rebibbia Branch has a frequency of 5-10min).




Ah so if they were to build a secondary business district connect an other metro line and/or Give more frequent headways it might become feasible.
But I doubt Rome has the money for this.


----------



## narkelion

Yeah, exactly.

There are plans to build a new Business District close to Tiburtina station, called "SDO". But those plans have been going around since at least 50 years and nothing or very little has been done.


----------



## Tower Dude

narkelion said:


> Yeah, exactly.
> 
> There are plans to build a new Business District close to Tiburtina station, called "SDO". But those plans have been going around since at least 50 years and nothing or very little has been done.



Ah Ah Ah! Sono porci questi Romani! Of course there would be talks of doing something but not actually doing it.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Only in a city so badly managed like Rome an area next to the second train station of the city would be devoid of office blocks

Anyway i would not consider Tiburtina a failure just yet: the metro frequency can be improved by working on technology and improving public transport. The horrendous highway can be demolished, the offices will soon or later be built. Offices that from there will be 2.5 hours away from the real economical capital of italy, Milan.


----------



## narkelion

The highway is bound to be demolished in 2017. At least, these are the latest news.


----------



## Eddard Stark

Exactly. Money can be poured in making the area around look a bit better, then money will start flowing in the area. Which really is a premium area, at least potentially.

For example a new development with offices, some high quality housing, supermarkets. Maybe a new terminal bus that looks decent. 

Tiburtina has a great potential, soon or later will be realized.

And it makes complete sense for all HSR Milan-Naples to stop there and just there, since there are many Rome-Milan direct.


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## Suburbanist

Eddard Stark said:


> Exactly. Money can be poured in making the area around look a bit better, then money will start flowing in the area. Which really is a premium area, at least potentially.
> 
> For example a new development with offices, some high quality housing, supermarkets. Maybe a new terminal bus that looks decent.
> 
> Tiburtina has a great potential, soon or later will be realized.
> 
> And it makes complete sense for all HSR Milan-Naples to stop there and just there, since there are many Rome-Milan direct.


Well, Italo tried something like that... and they also tried the Ostiense station which is much closer to the EUR area.


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## Eddard Stark

Long term, long term

Italo had tiburtina INSTEAD of Termini. 

I think the right approach is to have trains passing only through tiburtina and others going Tiburtina-Termini


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## btrs

JumpUp said:


> Good Morning!
> 
> I have a question concerning the Italian rolling stock and changes that are made by introducing the new ETR 400. It's now more than one year that those new "Frecciarossa 1000" have entered service.
> There will be 50 new trains in total by 2017.
> 
> My question: What will be the effect on the other Italian rolling stock?
> Some old ETR 500 are now running between Torino - Milano - Venezia.
> 
> Will there be old rolling stock withdrawn?
> Major changes in Frecciabianca or Frecciargento services?
> What's the future for conventional IC trains?
> 
> With having 50 new High speed trains, surely some older will be retired.
> 
> Thanks!





narkelion said:


> Freccia1000 (ETR400) should replace the ETR500 stock on the Torino - Milano - Roma - Napoli (- Salerno) line.
> 
> ETR500 will be moved to the transpadana (Torino - Milano - Verona - Venezia [- Trieste]) line and to some Adriatica services (Milano - Bologna - Ancona - Pescara - Bari).
> 
> There will be improvements in the frequency, of course.
> 
> FrecciArgento and FrecciaBianca will remain as they are. Those train saved from the Transpadana will be used to add more services on Tirrenica (Roma - Livorno - Pisa - Genova) and Adriatica line.
> 
> AFAIK, there should be no withdrawal.


I have some observations and questions around the same theme:

* All ETR460/463, save for 1 trainset (ETR460.24) now have the Frecciabianca livery, but haven't been refurbished since they were built. Most Pendolino-family trains already were refurbished (ETR470, VR Sm3, SBB ICN, DB ICE-T) or are in the process of being refurbished (CP Alfa Pendular, CD 680 in 2018), but ETR460 still has its original interiors.

Any plans for a interior refurbishment soon ? Or will these just become the low-cost, no-frills service from Trenitalia ?

* The remaining Trenitalia ETR470 now stickered (with vinyls) to form a hybrid silver/white Frecciabianca livery:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/caimano082/25733092895

* Any ideas what will happen to the E414+Frecciabianca coaches sets now that E401 locos in the same setup with driving trailers will be introduced ? I assume some loss-making Frecciabianca services operated with E414 sets now will be rebaptised under the new InterCity moniker, so they can benefit from the grants from the Transport ministry ?


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## JumpUp

Hey,

a couple of years ago there was a discussion to raise the max. speed between Milano and Roma from 250/300 km/h up to 360 km/h.

Is this still an untertaking yet to be done or is this idea already scrapped? What is currently the highest speed in Italy? 300 km/h?

Thanks


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## narkelion

Yes, actually max speed is 300 km/h.

They're still working to raise the speed to 350km/h where possibile.


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## Negjana

Will Torino-Milano and Roma-Napoli stay at 300 km/h?


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## narkelion

No, Torino - Milano and Roma - Napoli are part of the lines that can be raised.

Not all of them though: there's a bend on a bridge on the Ticino River, between Torino and Milano, that has too small radius to allow 350km/h safely.

And of course all the line Roma - Firenze isn't capable of more than 250-300km/h (depending on the stretch).


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## Suburbanist

I will never forgive RFI engineers for having botched that bridge aligment on what could have been the fastest commercially operated high-speed link in Europe!


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## hans280

Suburbanist said:


> I will never forgive RFI engineers for having botched that bridge aligment on what could have been the fastest commercially operated high-speed link in Europe!


Yes, but: is there a bypass at Milan? I didn't think so. The distance Turin-Milan is so relatively short that raising the speed from 300 to 350 km/h would only save a few minutes between those two cities. As far as I can see it would make sense only if this is part of a longer, uninterrupted 350-line between Turin and central Italy.


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## Negjana

I can't imagine there being enough demand for Torino - central Italy trains that skip Milano to justify a second line that skips Milano.


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## Axelferis

Napo said:


> Some pics and renders of the U/C high speed station Napoli-Afragola projected by Zaha Hadid:
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> The station will open the next June.


Design is great but why to open such a station in the countryside??
You need then to take the car to go in the city! It is ecological??!
To be connected to metro or tram is the norm but here nothing of that


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## Eddard Stark

I explained this station a few pages back


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## Eddard Stark

Btw, it looks in the middle of nowhere but in reality is in a highly populated area, no doubt will be developed in the future


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## Axelferis

And how is the high speed italian network in term of numbers passengers. Is it affordable to take a high speed train from Napoli to Milan?

I have the feeling italians prefer to use the plane to travel in the country?


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## Eddard Stark

I don't know the last numbers but the main route Milan-Rome has been decimated by the train and I also Naples-Milan suffered. In fact Naples 'domestic ' traffic is in decline


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## Ugo Fantozzi

> It could be any random country in the world. I don't like this type of architecture because there is nothing Italian there. Is it by Calatrava?


Zaha Hadid


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## keber

Which Italian things do you miss in those pictures?
And why should modern high speed rail railway stations have something of national character?


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## Jasper90

Napo said:


> Some pics taken by me last monday of the Napoli-Afragola high speed station:
> 
> The hall





dgero83 said:


> It could be any random country in the world. There is nothing Italian there. Is it by Calatrava?


It's Zaha Hadid. To me, the first thing that popped to my mind when I saw this station is the train station in Florence, Santa Maria Novella 

https://www.firenzesantamarianovella.it/it/


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## dgero83

keber said:


> Which Italian things do you miss in those pictures?
> And why should modern high speed rail railway stations have something of national character?


I don't know, I am not an architect. I mean, I see these architectures all around the world, they are so anonymous. It could be in Shenzhen or in T'bilisi, or in Stuttgart...


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## touya

The Verona to West-of-Vicenza stretch of the Milan - Venice HSL resolution by CIPE, voted on 22nd December 2017, has now been published in the Gazzatta ufficiale (Italy's official journal): http://www.gazzettaufficiale.it/att...diceRedazionale=18A04773&elenco30giorni=false. This basically means that it's going to be built.

Also: the official timetable calls for the stretch to be put into service in December 2024.


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## Nexis

*Treni Alta Velocità in transito a 300 km/h • GIORNO e NOTTE • AV Roma-Napoli • Ceccano (Frosinone)*


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## 1772

keber said:


> Which Italian things do you miss in those pictures?
> And why should modern high speed rail railway stations have something of national character?


Why should they not? Are they not located in a certain country or do they exist in some other sphere/realm outside of the country?


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## 3737

Some images of the "new" ETR 700 in its new livery.









Link

Link


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## Suburbanist

That is a great photo


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## M-NL

The new livery doesn't look that bad, but the big question remains whether it will stay in one piece while driving and not spontaneously catch fire while parked...








Source: www.ferrovie.info


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## Slagathor

Oh! Oh! I know the answer to this!

No.


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## brick84

ETR 675 EVO Italo - Treno N.1 - Sarmego by Gualtiero Palermo, su Flickr


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## intersezioni

ETR 700 FRECCIAROSSA (ex fyra)





New regional train "ROCK" 





New regional train "POP"





with the latest purchases the new regional trains are almost 800


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## jeiikob

*Italian experience on the liberalization of high-speed rail*

I have recently completed a study on the Italian experience in the competition in the high-speed rail market and on Italo-NTV specifically in view of the prospective launch of open-access operators in the Spanish high-speed rail network, which I present in here.

In order to accomplish so, Italo S.p.A. has been analysed from a commercial, operational, financial and strategic management points of view with the goal of identifying the key points to take into account for the launch of a similar, hypothetical private open-access train company in Spain. The expected theoretical outcome of the entrance of such an operator would be the configuration of a rail competition regime where rail transport would be able to improve its competitiveness, specially by means of the reduction in ticket prices, the increase in the services supply and in its quality.

Some interesting data collected in the thesis are presented below. In the full paper (link below) you can find the applicable explanations to each figure.

European open-access passenger operators in competition with national operators:



Configurations of Italian Airport Rail Links Compared with Those of Other European Airports with Long-Distance Train Service (due to the interest to study the possibilities to develop air-train intermodality in Italy).



Performance of some Italo S.p.A. ticket revenues key metrics: ridership, load factor, revenue passenger kilometre (RPK) and available seat kilometre (ASK):



Performance of some Italo S.p.A. key financial metrics: traffic revenue, yield, production costs and cost per available seat-kilometre (CASK):



Italo ETR 575 (AGV) operating costs breakdown:



Available moves for each strategic option for Italo's business growth:



Total HSR ridership and revenue passenger kilometre in Italy from 2009 to 2016 (includes traffic in corridors with no current competition):



Air traffic evolution in the Rome-Milan route from 2009 to 2017:



Air traffic evolution in Italian domestic links with HSR in competition (from the beginning of rail competition until 2017):



*Conclusions
*
*a) Conclusions on the Features of the Italian High-Speed Rail Network*

*1) The favourable economic and demographic conditions for HSR. *The economic and demographic characteristics of Italy are very favourable for HSR since it allows serving a large population efficiently from a network coverage and competitiveness point of view.

*2) The non-optimal preliminary layout of rail infrastructures towards a fully integrated HSR network throughout the country. *A number of hub train stations in the network are terminus, which results in some inconveniences for the operation of through train services since travelling through slow approaches to stations and turnarounds are required and hence travel times are slightly penalized (in a sector in which travel time matters). Nonetheless, solutions such as the reconfiguration of some route patters or new urban rail links have been adopted or are currently being adopted with the aim to sort out these issues.

*3) The infeasibility to take advantage of long-distance traffic flows to airports. *The review of the possibilities to bring HSR to airports reveals that the current infrastructure limits its viability and that the geographical layout of the infrastructures concerned around major airports often makes so even more complicated. Nevertheless, long-term investments in new rail links could make it possible.

*b) Conclusions on Italo’s Experience*

*4) The favourable circumstances for rail competition and the entrepreneurial spirit of the newcomer. *The fundamental conditions of Italo’s success include preliminarily the role played by the Italian Government to promote rail competition and the pre-existence of a newly-built high performances HSR network covering a large part of the country. Subsequently, of great importance is the risk the company assumed by allocating near €1 billion Euros in the up-front investment, the development of an innovative business model and other circumstances out of the company’s scope such as the reduction in track access charges.

*5) The innovation in the rail transport industry. *The Italian experience and especially Italo’s business model has evidenced that there is room for innovation in the rail transport market despite the inherent constraints of the rail industry such as technical rigidities and market regulations, which make more difficult to differentiate a product from the competitor’s. Some of the innovation instances identified include the levels of service, ancillary services, stations served, remuneration models for staff, ticket distribution systems, outsourcing activities, station lounges, intermodality through local bus feeding...).

*6) The ability to respond to adverse economic circumstances.* The first years of operation were extremely challenging for Italo since the deep economic crisis of 2008 was definitely unpredictable when the company was established in 2006, which hurt their financial forecasts. Nevertheless, the company proved to be able to react to these adverse circumstances by launching a turnaround plan in 2015 covering a wide range of operating activities, meant to overcome its very critical financial situation. The positive commercial and financial results later achieved proved the validity of the course of action implemented. Last but not least, it is important to highlight the capacity of Trenitalia to cope with the competitive pressure and to improve its services.

*7) The importance of operations efficiency.* In relation to the previous point, it is noteworthy that a key point of Italo’s turnaround plan of 2015 was to use the fleet more intensively, and its outcomes evidenced that there was actually significant room for improvement in this aspect (the production of train.kms increased by 24% with the same fleet size) and hence some doubts arise on the company’s early management decisions. This is of special relevance so as to achieve a CASK lower than the incumbent’s (one of the main goals of the newcomer in order to become successful), since operating costs strongly depend on how companies use their most expensive assets –trains.

*8) The implications of the company’s size.* The size of the entrant seems to play a very important role in determining its competitiveness since small-sized operators are prevented from benefiting from economies of scale, scope and density, and hence this has obvious implications in the overall cost structure. Therefore, the most convenient strategy appears to be the launch of operations with a considerable supply of services (i.e. the fleet size).

*9) The positive effects of network reliability. *The quality and the technical performances of the infrastructure appears to be key to encouraging competition since it allows operators to achieve a certain degree of robustness of their networks. In other words, a new entrant may be prone to assume low risks as much as possible in terms of reliability by confining to those high-performance lines (often HSLs) in order to achieve a certain competitive advantage over the incumbent. In fact, reliability has direct implications on required turnaround times at the end of a trip and hence on the maximum possible production of train.kms, and as a consequence on CASK.

*c) Conclusions on the Impact of Rail Transport Competition in Italy*

*10) The potential of rail competition to reform the overall long-distance transport system. *The experience of HSR competition in Italy and the resulting widespread fall of yields proved its capability to bring about a significant redistribution of traffic flows by diverting traffic flows from air, road and other rail services to HSR and to induce new demand.

*11) HSR has overcome domestic inland air traffic.* HSR has already conquered a considerable part of the Italian long-distance passenger transport market. The evolution of domestic inland air traffic since the completion of the backbone Turin-Milan-Rome-Naples-Salerno in 2009 shows that the completion of the this infrastructure brought a significant reduction in air traffic and that the new rail competition regime, started in 2012, has accentuated this tendency even more, which proves the effects of the overall reduction in ticket prices in HSR even in long links with less competitive HSR point-to-point travel time, which in some cases is above 5 hours.

*12) The redistribution of transport infrastructure capacity.* Rail competition results in a higher use of the infrastructure capacity provided by the HSR network, which is very positive taking into account the massive investments that this sort of infrastructures require. Furthermore, the shift of traffic flows from air to rail transport may have positive effects on congested airports by freeing up capacity that can be intended for growth in markets other than domestic ones served by HSR.

*13) Benefits for users in the HSR market. *Rail competition in Italy has been able to bring significant benefits in the long-distance transport market such as the possibility to choose carrier, the overall decrease in ticket prices, the increase in the overall supply of HSR services, the improvement in frequencies and in the quality of services and more differentiated levels of service.

*14) Benefits for the overall long-distance transport system. *Some authors have suggested that despite rail competition brings a reduction in ticket price for users, it is not clear that the overall cost of the transport system is actually reduced since the liberalisation may lead to a greater financial pressure on the system (Montero, 2016). For instance, in the Italian case, the reduction of track access charges effective from 2015 aimed at “the general interest” (La Repubblica, 2014) forced the infrastructure manager (i.e. the state) to assume a higher part of the cost of the system. Nevertheless, the increase in HSR traffic has allowed RFI to increase the overall track access charges revenue and hence to offset the cut in charges. Furthermore, the competition appears to be commercially and financially positive for both the incumbent, which has been pressed to improve its services and to adjust operational costs, and Italo, which is already in a sound financial footing. Therefore, in any case, a greater regulatory intervention with the aim to control the negative effects of competition should be taken into consideration by governments.

*d) Conclusions on the Feasibility of Rail Transport Competition*

*15) The role of the Single European Railway Area.* The technical inherent characteristics of rail transport still represent great obstacles towards a competitive rail market, which provides strong support to the Single European Railway Area (currently in process of implementation) that aims at overcoming these barriers. This is especially relevant in the context of the liberalisation of rail transport, since the lack of ROSCOs and the limited interoperability of networks represent a significant barrier to the entry of new operators to the market and therefore it is more difficult for governments to promote rail competition.

*16) The market size may limit the possibilities of efficient rail competition (I).* The Spanish Report of the technical-scientific Commission for the study of improvements in the railway sector of June 2014 suggests that the liberalisation should be carried out gradually and regulated carefully in order to avoid economic difficulties and the lack of profitability of operators due to the limited market size. In fact, in the Italian case, it is not likely that a third company will join the HSR market due to the lack of room in terms of infrastructure capacity and especially its doubtful profitability since the market is currently governed by low yields. With regards to Spain, since traffic figures are lower, it can be assumed that the market is tighter in order to take on a new HSR operator and that only a few HSR lines have enough passenger traffic so that the introduction of competition is feasible from an overall economic point of view, understanding that competition in low traffic lines could lead to sorts of inefficiency and the deterioration of the service.

*17) The market size may limit the possibilities of efficient rail competition (II). *Similarly to what has been already stated, it could be difficult to introduce competition in the lines of the Spanish HSR network in which the new entrant would be unable to offer a supply of at least one train per hour in each direction likewise the incumbent (assuming it would be optimum from their business point of view) due to the market size. The newcomer could consider entering the market with a smaller supply of trains, but it has to be taken into account that other drawbacks may arise such as the lower benefit of economies of scale and density. Furthermore, these benefits are precisely what have made Italo’s success
possible, which is the only available experience of real competition in HSR. In conclusion, HSR competition in Spain is only likely to take place in the busiest routes, at least in a first stage.

*18) Move on towards fair competition.* The experience also backs up the importance of non-discriminatory access to the rail network (namely lines, slots, stations, maintenance facilities and others) in order to ensure fair competition, which could be ensured with a more independent network manager.

*19) The applicability of the lessons learned. *The application in other countries of the lessons learned should be made with caution taking in mind the specific factors of the Italian case, such as the different contexts, railway networks, economic and demographic characteristics, regulatory and antitrust institutions, etc. In this sense, the instruction manual stated in Section 8 must be employed with wise foresight. The guidelines included within it are also applicable for any train company operating in the field of HSR in monopoly.

Link to the full document:
http://hdl.handle.net/2117/120982

Note: since the completion of this study until its publication some relevant events have taken place regarding Italo S.p.A. that are not mentioned (or just partially) in the document, such as the launch of Italo services to Trento and Bolzano since 1 August 2018 and the order for 5 additional EVO trains (up to 22 EVO trains in Italo's fleet).

I hope this may be of your interest.


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## Eddard Stark

Wow! great job.


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## ArtManDoo

Thank you jeiikob, for sharing. Seems that travel times on HSR from Naples to the north must be improved  As well the Rom-Flo direttissima is working at capacity, maybe they are planning a new very high speed line between Rome and Florence with HS connections to existing HS lines + new urban bypasses.


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## Axelferis

This station passengers spaces seem to be closed.Do they put the air conditionning process?
How is the temperature inside?


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## touya

The Council of State (Italy's highest administrative court) just stroke down the appeal against the construction of the line brought forward by (among others), citizens, environmentalist associations and Five Star Movement MPs: 

https://www.quibrescia.it/cms/2018/10/06/tav-bs-vr-consiglio-di-stato-respinge-tutti-i-ricorsi/


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## intersezioni

new high-speed service for goods.
MERCITALIA FAST


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## intersezioni

from January, the start of the tests for trains frecciarossa 1000 of trenitalia on the SNCF network is expected to take place before the introduction of new international services the following year, with the liberalization of national high-speed routes.


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## intersezioni

-Within a couple of years London and Rome could have a direct rail link. The star of the new project is Eurostar, the high-speed train company that crosses the Channel tunnel and which already connects the English capital with other cities on the continent.
Currently there are already regular scheduled services that from London St Pancras arrive to Amsterdam, Paris, Brussels, Lyon, Marseille, Avignon and Rotterdam. The goal is to expand the network of connections by adding new hubs in other European cities.
In order to do all of this, the Green Speed ​​Project was born, which sees Eurostar merging with the railway company AV trains Thalys.The UK Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has confirmed Parliament's full support to the project: “Among the destinations to be added in the future are Bordeaux, Spain, Portugal, Geneva and Switzerland, Italy, Austria and Frankfurt. Ultimately, we want to see seamless connections with high-speed continental networks to many European destinations. "
Currently, the furthest Eurostar takes passengers to the south of France, about 1,300 km from London. The plan is to extend its reach to cities like Rome (almost 1,900 km) and Lisbon (almost 2,190 km), in this case with obviously variable gauge trains. The connections to Eastern Europe are instead scheduled in later times.
Travel times between London and other cities should be as follows: Rome 11 hours and 30 minutes, Lisbon 9 hours and 30 minutes, Barcelona 6 hours and 30 minutes, Milan and Marseille 5 hours and 30 minutes, Bordeaux 4 hours and 30 minutes, Geneva 4 hours and 20 minutes, Frankfurt 3 hours 20 minutes and Cologne 2 hours and 30 minutes.
London-based Eurostar launched its first service in 1994 and is currently 55% owned by the French national railway company SNCF with a Canadian investment company which holds 30%. Shapps' announcement came when Eurostar launched its first direct train from Amsterdam to London in recent days.
The company has operated direct trains to the Dutch capital since 2018, but passengers who wanted to return had to take a train to Brussels, go through customs and change

https://ferrovie.info/index.php/it/...getta-treni-diretti-da-londra-a-roma-e-milano

-There are currently 10 new ETR 700 ex-FYRA high-speed trains on Italian lines.


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## Stuu

intersezioni said:


> Travel times between London and other cities should be as follows: Rome 11 hours and 30 minutes, Lisbon 9 hours and 30 minutes, Barcelona 6 hours and 30 minutes, Milan and Marseille 5 hours and 30 minutes, Bordeaux 4 hours and 30 minutes, Geneva 4 hours and 20 minutes, Frankfurt 3 hours 20 minutes and Cologne 2 hours and 30 minutes.


Those times are impossible - e.g. London to Brussels takes more than 2 hours now, and Brussels to Cologne is 1hr 45. And it's mostly HSR the whole way. And no new infrastucture is planned. The rest of the times are equally unlikely e.g. Barcelona is 8.5 hours from London now, with HSR most of the way, how on earth can Lisbon be reached in 1 hour from Barcelona?


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## dyonisien

intersezioni said:


> Currently, the furthest Eurostar takes passengers to the south of France, about 1,300 km from London. [...]
> Travel times between London and other cities should be as follows: Rome 11 hours and 30 minutes, Lisbon 9 hours and 30 minutes, Barcelona 6 hours and 30 minutes, Milan and Marseille 5 hours and 30 minutes, Bordeaux 4 hours and 30 minutes, Geneva 4 hours and 20 minutes, Frankfurt 3 hours 20 minutes and Cologne 2 hours and 30 minutes.
> [...]
> The company has operated direct trains to the Dutch capital since 2018, but passengers who wanted to return had to take a train to Brussels, go through customs and change
> https://ferrovie.info/index.php/it/...getta-treni-diretti-da-londra-a-roma-e-milano


How on earth could Milan and Marseilles be reached in the same time from London ? 
Furthermore you don't fill such long distance trains without serving intermediate important towns. And that is precisely forbidden, allegedly to protect Britain from some (dreamed) invasion. This sort of border harassment has already killed Paris-Manchester/Glasgow/Edinburgh.
Due to the same restrictions, trains to the Alps or to Avignon are more a rare weekly curiosity than a reliable relation.
Do we need to ask why there are no London-Lyon trains ?
Serving Lille both ways would make them quite viable. But it is just forbidden.
Every new served station would need to fence and neutralize a platform for a few trains a day. 
And the situation worsens the further you go.
All this without brexit ! Not sure it could be worse now.
An other emerging problem would be the congestion added to already busy lines without serving them: e.g. one path for a London-Lille-Lyon would serve all the needs of those 3 cities, allowing a high frequency and thus an attractive service, while segregating London trains would require an additional path for 'ghost trains.
The problem is not just British. It is the same with Thalys and SNCF not cooperating between Brussels and Lyon/Marseille.


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## dyonisien

intersezioni said:


> Currently, the furthest Eurostar takes passengers to the south of France, about 1,300 km from London. [...]
> Travel times between London and other cities should be as follows: Rome 11 hours and 30 minutes, Lisbon 9 hours and 30 minutes, Barcelona 6 hours and 30 minutes, Milan and Marseille 5 hours and 30 minutes, Bordeaux 4 hours and 30 minutes, Geneva 4 hours and 20 minutes, Frankfurt 3 hours 20 minutes and Cologne 2 hours and 30 minutes.
> [...]
> The company has operated direct trains to the Dutch capital since 2018, but passengers who wanted to return had to take a train to Brussels, go through customs and change
> https://ferrovie.info/index.php/it/...getta-treni-diretti-da-londra-a-roma-e-milano


How on earth could Milan and Marseilles be reached in the same time from London ? 
Furthermore you don't fill such long distance trains without serving intermediate important towns. And that is precisely forbidden, allegedly to protect Britain from some (dreamed) invasion. This sort of border harassment has already killed Paris-Manchester/Glasgow/Edinburgh.
Due to the same restrictions, trains to the Alps or to Avignon are more a rare weekly curiosity than a reliable relation.
Do we need to ask why there are no London-Lyon trains ?
Serving Lille both ways would make them quite viable. But it is just forbidden.
Every new served station would need to fence and neutralize a platform for a few trains a day. 
And the situation worsens the further you go.
All this without brexit ! Not sure it could be worse now.
An other emerging problem would be the congestion added to already busy lines without serving them: e.g. one path for a London-Lille-Lyon would serve all the needs of those 3 cities, allowing a high frequency and thus an attractive service, while segregating London trains would require an additional path for 'ghost trains.
The problem is not just British. It is the same with Thalys and SNCF not cooperating between Brussels and Lyon/Marseille.


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## 33Hz

Stuu said:


> Those times are impossible - e.g. London to Brussels takes more than 2 hours now


While I agree with your general point - in fact London to Brussels was taking 1h 48m when Eurostar introduced the Amsterdam direct services. For some reason (probably some months after grabbing headlines) they slowed it down when the train left London at e.g. 17:16 instead of 17:31.


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## Suburbanist

It is possible to save time with direct services bypassing lengthy stops and approaches to major stations. 

I wonder how fast could a Roma Termini - London S. Pancras take with no intermediate stops whatsoever... Köln Hbf. is like a black hole that sucks the overall speed over trains stopping there. From 2020 it would also be possible to have a faster route traversing Switzerland non-stop, although securing paths there could be impossible or extremely expensive.

Maybe London - Basel is more realistic, with separate Basel - (Italy) trains.


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## da_scotty

You would need China-style large station on the edge of cities with PT-conenctions to the centre then. While possible (and in fact even a good plan), this is not realistic in the next 30 years.


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## Stuu

Suburbanist said:


> It is possible to save time with direct services bypassing lengthy stops and approaches to major stations.
> 
> I wonder how fast could a Roma Termini - London S. Pancras take with no intermediate stops whatsoever... Köln Hbf. is like a black hole that sucks the overall speed over trains stopping there. From 2020 it would also be possible to have a faster route traversing Switzerland non-stop, although securing paths there could be impossible or extremely expensive.
> 
> Maybe London - Basel is more realistic, with separate Basel - (Italy) trains.


Theoretically going via Paris CDG and Strasbourg would be quicker today, a non-stop train should be around 3.5 hours to Strasbourg from London, so maybe just under 5 hours to Basel. In the event the Lyon-Torino tunnel is ever finished that would surely be the quickest route


----------



## Suburbanist

Stuu said:


> Theoretically going via Paris CDG and Strasbourg would be quicker today, a non-stop train should be around 3.5 hours to Strasbourg from London, so maybe just under 5 hours to Basel. In the event the Lyon-Torino tunnel is ever finished that would surely be the quickest route


So 5 hours London to Basel, 3h25 to Milano Lambrate (after the Ceneri base tunnel enters operation) and 2h50 to Roma Termini.


----------



## krisu99

An update (May 3rd, 2020) about the Brescia - Verona HSL, which saw initial worksites opening approx. a year ago or so.
As for now the Brescia bypass (or "shunt" as they call it in Italy) will not be built, for which provisions were already taken on the Milano-Brescia Route.


Red= stretches u/c
Green= Milano-Brescia HSL in service
Click on the images to view larger version.

Entire Route Milano-Brescia-Verona. The 25kV~ light green section (300km/h) has mostly been opened in 2016, except the upgraded dark green (200km/h) an initial light green sections from Milano to Treviglio (3kV=) which opened 2007 and before.



Zoom western part u/c


Zoom eastern section u/c. Verona is on the right.



As a side note: The 2016 western approach into Brescia with its flyover (lower left in image) for a future Brescia bypass. Which however has been cancelled in favor of a 4-track upgraded branch line into Brescia station (dark green, to the right).

:ciao:


----------



## Suburbanist

A new greenfield station will be built along the existing high-speed rail line in Frosinone.

source









.








.


----------



## Axelferis

This eurostar future development scheme seems ridiculously inefficient.
I can't imagine viability for a distance between Roma and London.
I bet the path will be:
London-Paris CDG-Disneyland Marne la vallée-Lyon-Torino-Milan-Rome


----------



## davide84

It would be funny to see UK Border Posts in Turin, Milan and Rome...

It will take around 10 years before the new tunnel between France and Italy is completed, before that the characteristics of the current line will be a performance-killer.


----------



## JumpUp

Hello,

in the last months (before Corona) the ETR 700 ex-FYRA high-speed trains are taking up train-services in Italy.
So I am very curious: What will be the near future of the 1990s "new-generation Pendolino", the ETR 460 (oldest), the ETR 470 (ex-Cisalpino Switzerland-Italy trains) and the ETR 485? Will they stay in service for some years in Italy or are they going to be taken down soon when all ETR 700 ex-FYRA are running smoothly?

Last year, one ETR 480 was for testing in Greece - is it still todays plan to sell those trains (ETR 470 or ETR 480) to Greece?

Thanks!


----------



## brick84

*Reggio Calabria*


----------



## intersezioni

JumpUp said:


> Hello,
> 
> in the last months (before Corona) the ETR 700 ex-FYRA high-speed trains are taking up train-services in Italy.
> So I am very curious: What will be the near future of the 1990s "new-generation Pendolino", the ETR 460 (oldest), the ETR 470 (ex-Cisalpino Switzerland-Italy trains) and the ETR 485? Will they stay in service for some years in Italy or are they going to be taken down soon when all ETR 700 ex-FYRA are running smoothly?
> 
> Last year, one ETR 480 was for testing in Greece - is it still todays plan to sell those trains (ETR 470 or ETR 480) to Greece?
> 
> Thanks!


Trenitalia manages the Greek railways and the ETR 480s are already in Greece to take service


----------



## davide84

Are they?

Latest news I could find says FS/TrainOSE is going to use the ETR 470, formerly used on the Gotthard line between Milan and Zurich:








Cisalpino Pendolinos to work Athens – Thessaloniki line


GREECE: Following its acquisition of national passenger operator Trainose, Italy's FS Group has decided to deploy its 200 km/h ETR470 tilting trains to accelerate inter-city services on the Athens - Thessaloniki main line. This follows trials with one of Trenitalia's multi-system ETR485...




www.railwaygazette.com




other sources say they were expected to be transferred "in the second half of 2020". 5 trainsets exist.

It's a bit funny, because the 470s were not enabled to 25 kV. The transformation should be happening in these months in the shop in Vicenza, Italy.


----------



## legolego

New (and the last) stretch has been approved, as part of the *Naples-Bari HSL*. (121 km lenght)

The entire HSL will be concluded in 2026, withs some openings during 2023









FS: Napoli-Bari, gara per ultimo lotto Hirpinia-Orsara - Strade & Autostrade Online


Photo credit: Travelquotidiano.com (come riportato su Le Strade dell’Informazione) De Micheli: “Nel 2026 è prevista la conclusione lavori, ma dal 2023 inizieranno le aperture progressive delle tratte” “25 nuovi viadotti, 9 gallerie e 14 nuove stazioni che sorgeranno in 121 chilometri per unire...




www.stradeeautostrade.it













here some works in progress and a project overview


----------



## legolego

*MILAN-VENICE HSL*, Brescia-Verona stretch: works in progress as on *September 2020





*


----------



## davide84

Brescia - Verona HS will be electrified with 3 kV CC.


----------



## davide84

9 ETR.470 were built for the joint-venture CIsalpino. After its closure, 5 have been demolished by SBB and 4 are being adapted by FS/Trenitalia for service in Greece by FS/TrainOSE: Ferrovie.it - ETR.470 per la Grecia, in lavorazione il secondo treno

I think the 485 are still in service with the brand Frecciargento, however services are greately reduced due to Covid. Don't know about the 460.


----------



## TER200

davide84 said:


> Don't know about the 460.


Last year I took one on a Frecciabianca. I guess they are still used as such.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The 9 ETR 470 were split 4 to SBB and 3 to Trenitalia, and not viceversa (thankfully, so that one more did survive). SBB units 2, 3 and 5 were quickly demolished, while #9 was split into three parts: three coaches were used to replace those of an ETR 485 destroyed in an accident, one has been kept by SBB as a museum vehicle (obviously not working), and the remaining five have been demolished.



davide84 said:


> You understand correctly. There will be urban services connecting the two stations.


But connections will be worse, I fear. For example, to go from Milan to Arezzo you will have to use a tramway to change station in Florence, right? (from HS to Santa Maria Novella stations)


----------



## davide84

Correct... don't get me started on that 🙂


----------



## Stuu

The Florence situation doesn't make much sense. I can see why they couldn't build a subsurface solution like in Bologna under SMN, but why not build the new station at Rifredi or Campo di Marte so that local and regional trains do connect directly?


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

M-NL said:


> To be honest: Hitachi Rail Italy did a lot more work on these trains than just changes to the interior and the exterior, before they went into service in Italy. The trains originally were really really bad, which combined with the higher demands/expectations NS and NMBS/SNCB seem to have on trains, led to them being taken out of service, hence my question how they were doing.


You didn't understand what I meant: considering the amount of sh!t thrown at these trains, the low adquisition price by Trenitalia and the work done by Hitachi Rail Italy, every sane person would say that these trains are now doing quite good with some minor issues.


----------



## M-NL

I understood exactly what you meant.
What I was referring to with higher demands and expectations was the amount of regular maintenance required on the original trains and their usage limitations, such as not being supposed to drive fast in light snowy conditions. AnsaldoBreda offered to partly solve this by a rebuild, but NS and NMBS didn't have the faith, nor the time to see if, this would solve everything. We will probably never know how extensive the rebuild proposed by AnsaldoBreda was going to be compared to the rebuild Hitachi Rail Italy (yes, essentially same company, different name) eventually did.
I'm glad that with the eventual rebuild the trains have been made perfectly usable. Scrapping them would have been a waste. 
I still don't like the way they look and some Italians seem to agree, because they gave the trains the nickname 'Multipla'. The new livery hides some of the 'interesting' design features a lot better though and is a big improvement over the original one.


----------



## Negjana

Are there flights from Venice to Milan?


----------



## davide84

In the past I think there were some.
The same reasoning applies to Milan - Rome and Venice - Rome stretches. Of course you have to buy tickets in advance to catch the offers, but same applies to plane tickets...


----------



## legolego

legolego said:


> *MILAN-VENICE HSL*, *Brescia-Verona stretch*: works in progress as on *September 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Monthly update from General Conctractor website *January 2021*:


----------



## legolego

legolego said:


> Monthly update from General Conctractor website *January 2021*:


*MILAN-VENICE HSL, Brescia-Verona stretch February 2021*:


----------



## 437.001

Hi.
Question.

Once the tunnel between Bussoleno and St Jean de Maurienne will be open, do you think that a Milan-Turin-Grenoble-Montpellier-Barcelona Freccia/TGV/AVE would make sense?
Or that's too soon?


----------



## legolego

*MILAN-VENICE HSL, Brescia-Verona stretch March2021*:


----------



## brick84

*Napoli-Afragola*

_Highspeed railway station_


----------



## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> Hi.
> Question.
> 
> Once the tunnel between Bussoleno and St Jean de Maurienne will be open, do you think that a Milan-Turin-Grenoble-Montpellier-Barcelona Freccia/TGV/AVE would make sense?
> Or that's too soon?


For long distances, it would if it everything was made to make it attractive. I mean cheaper than flying, with a good timetable, and with trains which have seats aligned with windows. If I can choose between an airplane and 8 hours looking ad the grey wall fo a train, and at similar prices, I would certainly choose the airplane.

Anyway, I fear that nobody tought about which services to run when they decided to build the tunnel. It was decided to build it mainly because of political reasons, but not because of a political project to increase rail transport, unlike the Swiss or Asutrian base tunnels. Sure, the Fréjus base tunnel will have some usefulness (and it is good to finish it after having already spent a lot of money), but it is not being built because of that.


----------



## legolego

legolego said:


> New (and the last) stretch has been approved, as part of the *Naples-Bari HSL*. (121 km lenght)
> 
> The entire HSL will be concluded in 2026, withs some openings during 2023
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FS: Napoli-Bari, gara per ultimo lotto Hirpinia-Orsara - Strade & Autostrade Online
> 
> 
> Photo credit: Travelquotidiano.com (come riportato su Le Strade dell’Informazione) De Micheli: “Nel 2026 è prevista la conclusione lavori, ma dal 2023 inizieranno le aperture progressive delle tratte” “25 nuovi viadotti, 9 gallerie e 14 nuove stazioni che sorgeranno in 121 chilometri per unire...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stradeeautostrade.it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 741939
> 
> 
> here some works in progress and a project overview



Work in progress (few days ago)













__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=451839729264847


----------



## legolego

New* Salerno - Reggio Calabria HSL*

This huge project is under technical and economical evaluetions. The new railway line will be *405 km* long, for total costs *20 Billions €







*
The project will be divided in some* priority lots* (red line below) that include *Salerno-Battipaglia-Praia *stretch for a total amount of about *10 B€*


----------



## keber

legolego said:


> Work in progress (few days ago)
> 
> View attachment 1321426
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=451839729264847


This is not really high speed railway, right? On this WeBuild site it says that maximum speed is 130 km/h.


----------



## legolego

keber said:


> This is not really high speed railway, right? On this WeBuild site it says that maximum speed is 130 km/h.


That's an error. The Vmax is *250 Km/h 

New x2 railway line *: 121 km
*New galleries*: 9 (lunghezza complessiva 63 km)
*New viaducts*: 25 (lunghezza complessiva 11,7 km)
*New stations*: 14 Velocità massima consentita: 250 km/h 

according to the Istitutional website of "Ferrovie dello Stato"




__





Gruppo FS, RFI: gara da 1,5 miliardi di euro per Linea AV/AC Napoli-Bari


Roma, 13 novembre 2020 Decisivo passo in avanti per la realizzazione della linea AC/AV Napoli – Bari di Rete Ferroviaria Italiana (Gruppo FS Italiane). Pubblicato oggi sulla Gazzetta Ufficiale dell...




www.napolibari.it





On the other side, seems to be clear that the commercial services will operate at *200-220 km/h







*


----------



## bruno amsterdamski

legolego said:


> View attachment 1321473


What are RM and RC?


----------



## dgero83

pccvspw999 said:


> Ok, but it doesn't mean that the two answers are wrong. If You think that "knowing something" means "being in favor of this project", than You are the "italian" here, not me
> (and I am certainly a quite unkommon italian, be sure of that)


No. The opinions written above are well known critics that were and are made for any high speed project in Italy. I was hoping to see some real facts here, not politics. I asked why, because first of all I was unaware that the project had started, and because I was sincerely interested in a tecnical opinion, which I normally get on this forum. What I wasn't expecting were no-tavs to be on this platform too. This upsets me, because I thought that the language barrier was enough to shield this forum from that sterile old and unuseful discussion that usually takes place on Facebook and Twitter in which I am totally not interested.


----------



## Slagathor

dgero83 said:


> In 2007 I flew for the last time from Milan to Bologna. Until 10 years ago you flew from Milan to Rome, 5 years ago you still flew from Milan to Naples. 2007 seems 100 years ago.
> In the future you won't fly from Milan to Palermo.
> Because it's unsustainable, and it will be more comfortable to do it by train.
> Things are changing.


For a Dutchman who used to live in Naples, I see some similarities between Naples-Sicily and London-Amsterdam in terms of the geography.

High speed rail in both places requires a detour because of geography. Flights are much more direct. 

However, there _are _high speed trains running from London to Amsterdam. This is mostly a feature of the fact that the area in between is densely populated and rich. Nobody built these railways with the intention to connect London to Amsterdam. They were built first to connect Paris with Lille. Then Paris with Brussels. Then Paris with London etc. etc. etc. 

I don't think this connection would ever have existed, if the area between London and Amsterdam had been as sparsely populated as Calabria. It wouldn't have been affordable. 

The high speed train between London and Amsterdam takes 5 hours. A plane does it in 50 minutes. Under those conditions, the high speed train has not managed to outcompete the airlines like it has between Paris and Amsterdam (almost nobody takes the plane between those two cities anymore, just like Milan and Rome). 

So while it's not impossible to build a high speed railway line between Naples and Sicily, it would be very, very difficult (ie. expensive). Its success would also be limited as it would probably not manage to outcompete the airlines completely.


----------



## dgero83

pccvspw999 said:


> There was no reason to fly from Milano to Bologna in 2007 and even earlier.
> From Milan to Rome the flights were full and expensive, nevertheless also trains did their business, far earlier than "high speed era". Ten thousends of people are using that route every single day. With "high-speed" the railroads took the business for their own, which costed further 10 billions to tax payers because politic wasn't able to liquidate Alitalia. If I only knew...
> From Palermo to Milan it will still take 11 hours (2h to Messina, 1h to pass the strait, 5h to Rome and 3h to Milan) no one, if not obligated, will take a train. And oblige people living on an island to travel by earth because flights are unsustainable, means a "death-note" for any economics in that island.
> Even with the strait bridge, and a modern railway line from Palermo to Messina, it will still take 9h.
> No, to build SA-RC You MUST be able to fill the trains with people traveling from Palermo to Rome (in 6h in the best scenario), or even to Naples, but there aren't as many. That is a matter of fact.
> Build the bridge and in 30-50 years there may be enough passegers to make a high-speed line affordable, as it took 150 years to make it reasonable to biuld it from Milan to Rome.
> 
> Yes things change, but give time to time, dont't hurry it.


Maybe not from Milan to Palermo, that's clearly an exaggeration. But Palermo-Bari, Catania-Rome, Reggio Calabria-Florence. That will surely be feasible, sustainable and cheaper as flights will be when they will stop being subsidized.


----------



## dgero83

Slagathor said:


> For a Dutchman who used to live in Naples, I see some similarities between Naples-Sicily and London-Amsterdam in terms of the geography.
> 
> High speed rail in both places requires a detour because of geography. Flights are much more direct.
> 
> However, there _are _high speed trains running from London to Amsterdam. This is mostly a feature of the fact that the area in between is densely populated and rich. Nobody built these railways with the intention to connect London to Amsterdam. They were built first to connect Paris with Lille. Then Paris with Brussels. Then Paris with London etc. etc. etc.
> 
> I don't think this connection would ever have existed, if the area between London and Amsterdam had been as sparsely populated as Calabria. It wouldn't have been affordable.
> 
> The high speed train between London and Amsterdam takes 5 hours. A plane does it in 50 minutes. Under those conditions, the high speed train has not managed to outcompete the airlines like it has between Paris and Amsterdam (almost nobody takes the plane between those two cities anymore, just like Milan and Rome).
> 
> So while it's not impossible to build a high speed railway line between Naples and Sicily, it would be very, very difficult (ie. expensive). Its success would also be limited as it would probably not manage to outcompete the airlines completely.
> 
> View attachment 2627342
> 
> 
> View attachment 2627343


The flight might be 50 minutes, but you must be 1.5 hours before at the airport, you have checks that need to be performed, and you have to wait for luggages afterwords, and don't forget that we still live in a world where flights are heavily subsidized. It was much easier and cheaper for me to go to Brussels by train then by airplane, when was it, 2012. When flights will stop being subsidized, and it's a when, not an if, i.e. when there is an alternative to it like HSR in the best case scenario, or when the CO2 emissions won't be acceptable anymore, flights will stop being cost effective for the masses.


----------



## kokomo

If I may: you have to not only consider the cost of building a HSL but also the upkeep. Maintaining a HSL requires a dedicated team monitoring the line every night, which if you have a 200kmh line is not that compulsory. 

So, it will be billions of Euros to build a line but also to maintain it will mean an extra burden IF the passenger figures are not that juicy.

My 2 cents


----------



## pccvspw999

dgero83 said:


> No. The opinions written above are well known critics that were and are made for any high speed project in Italy. I was hoping to see some real facts here, not politics. I asked why, because first of all I was unaware that the project had started, and because I was sincerely interested in a tecnical opinion, which I normally get on this forum. What I wasn't expecting were no-tavs to be on this platform too. This upsets me, because I thought that the language barrier was enough to shield this forum from that sterile old and unuseful discussion that usually takes place on Facebook and Twitter in which I am totally not interested.


The only facta that are missing are those to justify why to build this “amenity”. This is not an academic forum were “only facts and nothing but facts” shall be discussed, opinions are wellcome, just be aware that these are opinions, yours as well as mine.
But facts have been told, You just simply want to ignore them.


----------



## pccvspw999

dgero83 said:


> Maybe not from Milan to Palermo, that's clearly an exaggeration. But Palermo-Bari, Catania-Rome, Reggio Calabria-Florence. That will surely be feasible, sustainable and cheaper as flights will be when they will stop being subsidized.


No, it isn’t an exaggeration, it’s a simplification. Can You tell me how many flights are now operated to Bari? To Naples? Reggio Calabria-Florence? The only route sustainable is apparently Catania-Rome with 900000 pax/yr. It collects all origins in Sicily, and it will always do until Sicily stays an island. But even 2500 pax per day (just 2,5 complete trains) do not justify 20 bn of Euros expense to build the high speed railroad. And neither with the bridge.

I’m a PRO-TAV since the first Shinkansen was build, and I wasn’t even born. But high-speed railroads are somthing expensive to build and to maintain. These are justified only where other lines are saturated and need another 2 tracks, and these can’t be found anywhere in southern italy, because there is no enough traffic.
Some lines need to be modernised, but in most cases up to 200-220 km/h is quite sufficient, where the primary goal is instead to enlarge the loading gauge and the axial loads.

When, and only when, south Italy is rich enough to pay for such a luxury. And it is a luxury, not a need to have high-speed railroads to run a couple of trains per day.
Show me that 50 well packed trains (>50% occupancy) will be the need to be satisfied, and I will support any such enterprise. But You can’t.


----------



## pccvspw999

kokomo said:


> […]IF the passenger figures are not that juicy.


Believe me the figures aren’t “juicy”, but “dry as Martini”. The only possibility to get something to ”squeeze” is Sicily connected to mainland, and after it’s economy has risen for at least 10 years at a 5% higher rate than northern Italy. If this occurs, also Calabria will grow by “tractor-beem” from it’s neighbours: it is the only hope for that region to develop.


----------



## kokomo

pccvspw999 said:


> dry as Martini


😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂


----------



## Eddard Stark

Slagathor said:


> For a Dutchman who used to live in Naples, I see some similarities between Naples-Sicily and London-Amsterdam in terms of the geography.
> 
> High speed rail in both places requires a detour because of geography. Flights are much more direct.
> 
> However, there _are _high speed trains running from London to Amsterdam. This is mostly a feature of the fact that the area in between is densely populated and rich. Nobody built these railways with the intention to connect London to Amsterdam. They were built first to connect Paris with Lille. Then Paris with Brussels. Then Paris with London etc. etc. etc.
> 
> I don't think this connection would ever have existed, if the area between London and Amsterdam had been as sparsely populated as Calabria. It wouldn't have been affordable.
> 
> The high speed train between London and Amsterdam takes 5 hours. A plane does it in 50 minutes. Under those conditions, the high speed train has not managed to outcompete the airlines like it has between Paris and Amsterdam (almost nobody takes the plane between those two cities anymore, just like Milan and Rome).
> 
> So while it's not impossible to build a high speed railway line between Naples and Sicily, it would be very, very difficult (ie. expensive). Its success would also be limited as it would probably not manage to outcompete the airlines completely.
> 
> View attachment 2627342
> 
> 
> View attachment 2627343


It's the distances that are very different.

London to Amsterdam is 540 km (more or less)
Rome to Palermo is almost 1000 

TWICE as much, and already Amsterdam-London is considered the maximum limit for HSR (in fact until recently there weren't many direct trains between the two cities)

The OTHER difference is population.

The line Amsterdam-London (calling also at Bruxelles and usually Lille) crosses some of the densest population areas in Europe: southern england with 20 million, the Lille and Bruxelles areas with millions, Amsterdam and its greater area with many more millions. The overall potential demand is probably around 40 million people, if not more. And, sorry to say, also high spender as it is one of the busiest and richest part of Europe, touching 3 national capitals. 

Nothing of the sort between Rome and Sicily: Naples is already connected by HSR, so we have to evaluate the crazy hundreds of km on the merit of what is further on. BTW, also Salerno is already (basically) reached by HSR. 

Further...there are 2 million people in Calabria (hard to reach as they live sparsely through the mountain region of Calabria) and the admittedly populous Sicily, with its two great city of around 1 miln people. 

The train - even with the bridge, even with the HSR on the entire line - will still take TWICE AS LONG as Amsterdam-London, which is 4:13 minutes. At least 8 hours.

Who needs that when in 1 hour you can take the plan, direct route, to Rome (and BTW also to Naples).

NOBODY and NOBODY will ever do it.


----------



## Eddard Stark

And BTW, it's not even true that the south has no HSR lines.

Rome-Naples goes to the south (to the main city in the south) and another basically HSR line connects the line almost to Salerno. 

A fast upgrade of the Rome-Bari is U/C. It won't be a real HSR (But neither is really needed). 

These lines affect the speed of all the main services in the south: Reggio-Naples-Rome and Taranto/Lecce-Bari-Rome. 

As I wrote above, a case can be easily made about a HSR between Catania and Palermo: two cities that are fairly close, and with some easy to cross land in between ideal for HSR. With 1 million living in each city, there is a good deal of traffic between them. It's a bit of a luxury, but if Sicily really wants us to waste some money on them, that's a realistic project. 

And hey, it's something you will actually use! Unlike the 8 hours train to Rome.


----------



## Eddard Stark

dgero83 said:


> No. The opinions written above are well known critics that were and are made for any high speed project in Italy. I was hoping to see some real facts here, not politics. I asked why, because first of all I was unaware that the project had started, and because I was sincerely interested in a tecnical opinion, which I normally get on this forum. What I wasn't expecting were no-tavs to be on this platform too. This upsets me, because I thought that the language barrier was enough to shield this forum from that sterile old and unuseful discussion that usually takes place on Facebook and Twitter in which I am totally not interested.


It's not true

I never critisiced the other HSR lines in Italy

In general, if you can stay within 3 hours (max 4) and the cities are large enough it makes sense to build an HSR

The main italian line Turin-Milan-Bologna-Firenze-Rome-Naples was begging to get and HSR. These are all 1+mln cities and metropolitan areas (5-7 mln in the case of Rome and Milan), all maximum 1.5 hours apart by HSR. That is VERY different from Naples-Reggio, a no man's land connecting nothing with nothing, and MUCH further apart

That is physics. Sorry, nature is not fair. If we bring Sicily a bit closer to Rome maybe it makes sense, until then...


----------



## dgero83

Yes. Why connecting peripheral areas? Let's just invest in the blue banana, where the majority of people live, and where the investment has the highest leverage. What could go wrong?
Look at the UK.
Countries are not businesses, and Italians should have learnt it the hard way when they had Berlusconi in office, but it wasn't enough apparently. You don't build public services to have operating revenue.









CONNECTOGRAPHY: Mapping the Future of Global Civilization


We’re accelerating into a future shaped less by countries than by connectivity. Mankind has a new maxim – Connectivity is destiny – and the most connected powers, and people, will win. In this book Parag Khanna guides us through the emerging global network civilization in which mega-cities...




www.paragkhanna.com


----------



## Eddard Stark

dgero83 said:


> Yes. Why connecting peripheral areas? Let's just invest in the blue banana, where the majority of people live, and where the investment has the highest leverage. What could go wrong?
> Look at the UK.
> Countries are not businesses, and Italians should have learnt it the hard way when they had Berlusconi in office, but it wasn't enough apparently. You don't build public services to have operating revenue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CONNECTOGRAPHY: Mapping the Future of Global Civilization
> 
> 
> We’re accelerating into a future shaped less by countries than by connectivity. Mankind has a new maxim – Connectivity is destiny – and the most connected powers, and people, will win. In this book Parag Khanna guides us through the emerging global network civilization in which mega-cities...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.paragkhanna.com


It's not a problem of development, it's a problem of physics. 

And BTW, there are many other peripherals areas. I come from Abruzzo, a peripheral mountainous region. The train Pescara-Rome takes almost 4 hours (by car is 2) but I am not asking for an HSR Rome-Pescara, even if it is a lot closer

Simply: not enough people, too much cost. 

You cannot escape that. In life there are always priorities. 30 billion euros (much more in my humble hopinion) can be spent much more efficiently. If you want, even in the same regions. Palermo and Catania need more metro and public transportation, the straits need a bridge, the sicilian railways need a big upgrade, lots of secondary road need improvement, the airports could benefit from an upgrade. On top of that, all infrastructure in Sicily need a better maintenance (which I know, it's not as sexy, but it is more important). 

The HSR even if built wouldn't change a thing. Nothing. Because with those km distances, it won't make a difference large enough to attract traffic. Hence, it would be totally meaningless.


----------



## dgero83

Eddard Stark said:


> It's not a problem of development, it's a problem of physics.
> 
> And BTW, there are many other peripherals areas. I come from Abruzzo, a peripheral mountainous region. The train Pescara-Rome takes almost 4 hours (by car is 2) but I am not asking for an HSR Rome-Pescara, even if it is a lot closer
> 
> Simply: not enough people, too much cost.
> 
> You cannot escape that. In life there are always priorities. 30 billion euros (much more in my humble hopinion) can be spent much more efficiently. If you want, even in the same regions. Palermo and Catania need more metro and public transportation, the straits need a bridge, the sicilian railways need a big upgrade, lots of secondary road need improvement, the airports could benefit from an upgrade. On top of that, all infrastructure in Sicily need a better maintenance (which I know, it's not as sexy, but it is more important).
> 
> The HSR even if built wouldn't change a thing. Nothing. Because with those km distances, it won't make a difference large enough to attract traffic. Hence, it would be totally meaningless.


I give up, you are obviously right.


----------



## Sunfuns

I think the Italians commenting here are right. Just not the best use of a giant pot of money. 

If we're talking about HSR only a full Milan-Genoa line would make sense. Also speeding up construction to Venice. Perhaps extending it to Trieste (200 km/h sufficient) and making a connection to Slovenia and Croatia. Palermo-Catania indeed maybe. 

Then not a full high speed, but fully upgrading and speeding up the connection to future Brenner base tunnel. Milano Centrale probably could use more capacity and (selfishly) better connection to Switzerland. There are a lot of railway projects in still Italy which do make sense.


----------



## pccvspw999

There is also another problem: building high-speed lines, and with many tunnel, requires high skilled workers. There aren't so many and it is even not reasonable to have more because once the works are done they need to be employed further. Now we have people working on the Frejus base tunnel, Brenner base tunnel, high-speed Brescia-Verona and Verona-Padova, new line Naples-Bari. Up-coming: the new stretch of double track of the adriatic line and the new line Verona-Brenner. So there is plenty to do, even around Europe for those "cathedral builders", for the next 20 years.
Are there really as many workers to be spared to build something more?
It takes another 10 years before the first skilled-workers go to retirement and have to be replaced. So we need to form new skilled workers, but You cannot skill them "on site", they have to do something else working with the already skilled workers.
Building these kind of infrastructures does not create new jobs, maybe some temporary, low paied ones, but needs capable workers who will not be available for the most useful projects on the paper.
I can only hope that the ministry of work knows perfectly the numbers of people available to do these jobs.


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## Eddard Stark

dgero83 said:


> I give up, you are obviously right.


Indeed, thank you for admitting it 

(yes I know you were joking, but I am not: I am indeed right, and you are wrong sir)


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## Eddard Stark

This is not a


Sunfuns said:


> I think the Italians commenting here are right. Just not the best use of a giant pot of money.
> 
> If we're talking about HSR only a full Milan-Genoa line would make sense. Also speeding up construction to Venice. Perhaps extending it to Trieste (200 km/h sufficient) and making a connection to Slovenia and Croatia. Palermo-Catania indeed maybe.
> 
> Then not a full high speed, but fully upgrading and speeding up the connection to future Brenner base tunnel. Milano Centrale probably could use more capacity and (selfishly) better connection to Switzerland. There are a lot of railway projects in still Italy which do make sense.


Long term, there are a handful of other projects that could be done (Bologna-Verona, Bologna-Padova, Bologna-Rimini, Firenze-La Spezia, Bari-Lecce, even some stretch of the Salerno-Reggio). But right now the priority should go to finish the tunnels (Lyon-Turin, Brenner and Genoa-Po plain) and the stretch from Brescia to Padova.


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## kokomo

One question: the direttisima Roma-Firenze built in the 70's hampers the speed limit to 250 kmh due to its 3Kv CC feeding, right? If it were upgraded to 25Kv CA, just like the true high speed lines, would it suffice to increase speed to 300 kmh or track geometry modifications are required also?


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## pccvspw999

K_ said:


> Building multi system trains is trivial nowadays however. Belgium (another 3kV country) is re-electrifying some lines as 25kV AC, and has regional trains that are multi system. France has been doing this for ages as well.


Yes, but apparently not in Italy. Regional trains still in order are with only 3V DC systems and w/o ERTMS. Only South-Tyrol will electrify its Venosta RR with 25kV AC with the result that regional trafic will need 3-System trains (also 15kV 16,7 Hz for Austria in order to have through services). We will see.


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## PippO.SkaiO

pccvspw999 said:


> Yes, but apparently not in Italy. Regional trains still in order are with only 3V DC systems and w/o ERTMS. Only South-Tyrol will electrify its Venosta RR with 25kV AC with the result that regional trafic will need 3-System trains (also 15kV 16,7 Hz for Austria in order to have through services). We will see.


This is valid only for regional trains
Fast trains (e.g. Frecciabianca) already use multicurrent locomotives like E.402B, E.403 or E.414 (from ETR500)
Also freight companies have a lot of multicurrent locomotives in operation, see GS1 - Rail Transport Offer Mapping (PDF - Italian)
Unfortunately only three companies specified their locomotive models:

Captrain Italia (main route IT-FR) owns 25 electric locomotives all multicurrent (25 AC and 1.5+3 DC)
ERS Railways (main route IT-NL) owns 12 electric locomotives all multicurrent (15 + 25 AC and 1.5 + 3 DC)
Rail Traction Company (main route IT-AT-DE) owns 34 electric locomotives of which 30 are multicurrent (15 + 25 AC and 1.5 + 3 DC)
Someone knows how many of 448 Trenitalia Cargo electric locomotive are able to run on 25kV?


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## pccvspw999

PippO.SkaiO said:


> This is valid only for regional trains
> Fast trains (e.g. Frecciabianca) already use multicurrent locomotives like E.402B, E.403 or E.414 (from ETR500)
> Also freight companies have a lot of multicurrent locomotives in operation, see GS1 - Rail Transport Offer Mapping (PDF - Italian)
> Unfortunately only three companies specified their locomotive models:
> 
> Captrain Italia (main route IT-FR) owns 25 electric locomotives all multicurrent (25 AC and 1.5+3 DC)
> ERS Railways (main route IT-NL) owns 12 electric locomotives all multicurrent (15 + 25 AC and 1.5 + 3 DC)
> Rail Traction Company (main route IT-AT-DE) owns 34 electric locomotives of which 30 are multicurrent (15 + 25 AC and 1.5 + 3 DC)
> Someone knows how many of 448 Trenitalia Cargo electric locomotive are able to run on 25kV?


Absurd it sounds, only high-speed train sets (Frecciarossa and Frecciargento) in Italy have dual or multicurrent power traction. E402B/403 have only a presdisposition for 25kV AC and ERMTS, as well there are plans to make them dual, and E414 are purely 3kV DC.
You'll never find a Frecciabianca on a high-speed line with 25kV AC supply. 
Also cargo machines of the MIR-fleet (Mercitalia Rail - the cargo company of TI) are DC only, as far as I know.


----------



## K_

pccvspw999 said:


> Yes, but apparently not in Italy. Regional trains still in order are with only 3V DC systems and w/o ERTMS. Only South-Tyrol will electrify its Venosta RR with 25kV AC with the result that regional trafic will need 3-System trains (also 15kV 16,7 Hz for Austria in order to have through services). We will see.


No ETCS? Is that even permitted? I though Italy was going to move the whole country to ETCS in the long run anyway?

Regarding the electrification of the Venosta RR: Once you have a train set that works on both 15kV AC and 3kV DC adding 25kV AC is trivial (in fact, it is standard nowadays). So the decision to save some money by electrifying the Venosta RR with AC is a good one.


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## pccvspw999

K_ said:


> No ETCS? Is that even permitted? I though Italy was going to move the whole country to ETCS in the long run anyway?


You say it:"in the long run". The old security system will stay in place anyway, so regional governments, who pay for the regional train services, won't make this expense until the very end when it becomes compulsory. May be Lombardy with the last order buys trains already equipped with ETCS, but it's an exception. First lines will be equipped with ETCS, than trains, and this will take, imho, at least two decades.



> Regarding the electrification of the Venosta RR: Once you have a train set that works on both 15kV AC and 3kV DC adding 25kV AC is trivial (in fact, it is standard nowadays). So the decision to save some money by electrifying the Venosta RR with AC is a good one.


The unkommon thing is that Merano-Bozen is 3kV DC and Merano-Malles could have been 3kV as well in order to allow "pure" 3kV-trains to run on it if necessary (not all services need to got to Austria). In this way Merano-Malles will stay an "island" as it is now (but diesel trains can run everywhere w/o any problems).


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## Coccodrillo

All Südtirol trains would also have 25 kV equipment anyway so as to use the Brenner Base Tunnel, so 25 kV was also chosen for the Meran-Mals line (as it's cheaper than 3 kV).

The BBT itself will be for the most part electrified in 25 kV, but near the northern end 15 kV will be used.

And maybe in the future 25 kV will replace 3 kV DC wires on the whole Brenner railway and its branches...who knows.


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## Ghostpoet

Coccodrillo said:


> All Südtirol trains would also have 25 kV equipment anyway so as to use the Brenner Base Tunnel, so 25 kV was also chosen for the Meran-Mals line (as it's cheaper than 3 kV).
> 
> The BBT itself will be for the most part electrified in 25 kV, but near the northern end 15 kV will be used.


What is the current status of the Meran-Mals electrification project?
Also, BBT would be for sure 25kV 50Hz? Last time when I was reading something about the tunnel, it was said that the electrification is not defined yet... (for sure 25kV is the best choice, but...).

Thnx!

Ghostpoet


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## PippO.SkaiO

Ghostpoet said:


> What is the current status of the Meran-Mals electrification project?
> Also, BBT would be for sure 25kV 50Hz? Last time when I was reading something about the tunnel, it was said that the electrification is not defined yet... (for sure 25kV is the best choice, but...).
> 
> Thnx!
> 
> Ghostpoet


The BBT and new Verona-Innsbruck line will be electrified with 25 kV 50 H; Innsbruck-München will remain at 15 kV 16,7 Hz:

List of BBT documents, Section IV Ausrüstung/Attrezzaggio, 6.3 Traktionsstrom/Trazione elettrica 25kV, 50Hz 
Traffic analysis for Trento bypass, page 5.
Here a 2016 project recap from Austrian Bundesministerium für Verkehr, Innovation und Technologie (Raumumwelt.at)

ScanMed corridor - Alpine Region (PDF - English)
ScanMed corridor - Alpenraum (PDF - Deutsch)
Corridoio ScanMed - Spazio Alpino (PDF - Italiano)
As of January 2022 these are the problematic sections:

A - Germany scrapped ETCS L2 installation on 80% of their line
C/E/F - No timeframe, declared low priority by Germany gov., there's a preliminary project for Rosenheim bypass (E)
K - BBT construction halted for legal controversies on H51 lot, new tender will close in March
M/O/Q - No timeframe or preliminary project, Italian gov commited but with unknown priority
P - Design of Aquaviva-Marco (Rovereto bypass) still unknown


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## brick84

High-speed railway line *Napoli-Bari*














source: WeBuild


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## M-NL




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## Coccodrillo

Ghostpoet said:


> Also, BBT would be for sure 25kV 50Hz? Last time when I was reading something about the tunnel, it was said that the electrification is not defined yet... (for sure 25kV is the best choice, but...).


I'm sure of what I said, that is, it will mostly be 25 kV but with the northern end 15 kV. And all stations on the south will remain 3 kV for the time being. This means that only 3-current trains will be able to use it. Many freight locomotives used today, even the modern ones, will thus not be able to use it.

The Fréjus base tunnel will also need 3-current trains, but 1.5 + 3 + 25 kV this time, with the switch between AC and DC likely outside the tunnel.


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## TER200

Coccodrillo said:


> The Fréjus base tunnel will also need 3-current trains, but 1.5 + 3 + 25 kV this time, with the switch between AC and DC likely outside the tunnel.


However all trains currently running on this line are already compatible with those (with both 1500V and 25kV being standard in France).


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## JoFMO

Coccodrillo said:


> I'm sure of what I said, that is, it will mostly be 25 kV but with the northern end 15 kV. And all stations on the south will remain 3 kV for the time being. This means that only 3-current trains will be able to use it. Many freight locomotives used today, even the modern ones, will thus not be able to use it.


Every modern 15 kV Loco can more or less with a little Software upgrade run under 25 kV.


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## kokomo

brick84 said:


> High-speed railway line *Napoli-Bari*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 2764327
> 
> 
> source: WeBuild


Doesn't it look a big steep of a radius for a high speed line?


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## Eddard Stark

kokomo said:


> Doesn't it look a big steep of a radius for a high speed line?


it's not a "real" HSR.


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## M-NL

JoFMO said:


> Every modern 15 kV Loco can more or less with a little Software upgrade run under 25 kV.


It's not the voltage, but the different frequency that is the challenge. If not designed for multi frequency operation from the start 'more or less' can come with severe performance penalties. For instance, TGV POS sets are limited to 6880 kW under 15 kV AC, instead of 9280 kW under 25 kV AC. The performance penalty for a Thalys PBKA is even worse. Good news is that we now have ways around that. Bad news is that older designs can't be easily retrofitted.


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## Coccodrillo

Older locos must have their transformer replaced (among other things) to run also on the other type of current, and there must be enough place to install the new one.

It is relatively easy to design a new train type to be able to use both 15 and 25 kV, but not to adapt existing trains. Modern locos like Traxx or Vectrons are basically all multi-system locos (1.5+3+15+25) where the non necessary components are not installed/activated if they are not needed.



TER200 said:


> However all trains currently running on this line are already compatible with those (with both 1500V and 25kV being standard in France).


I don't think so, not all French locos can run under 3 kV and not all Italian locos can run under 25 kV (but most 3 kV can also run under 1.5 kV or can be easily adapted).



kokomo said:


> Doesn't it look a big steep of a radius for a high speed line?


This likely a straight or nearly straight section, it is just an optical effect if it seems a tight curve.


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## lowrence

However it is not a high speed line. It is just a new alignment and track doubling from Caserta to Foggia, plus the connection to Naples via the new High Speed station Napoli-Afragola. From Foggia to Bari the trains will use the old adriatic line. Only a small section, about 20km, will be built for 250 km/h.


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## TER200

kokomo said:


> Doesn't it look a big steep of a radius for a high speed line?


No idea, the wide angle photo doesn't show curves or even straight lines realistically.



M-NL said:


> It's not the voltage, but the different frequency that is the challenge. If not designed for multi frequency operation from the start 'more or less' can come with severe performance penalties. For instance, TGV POS sets are limited to 6880 kW under 15 kV AC, instead of 9280 kW under 25 kV AC. The performance penalty for a Thalys PBKA is even worse. Good news is that we now have ways around that. Bad news is that older designs can't be easily retrofitted.


The transformer requires a larger iron core when the frequency is lower. Thus, a transformer for 16 Hz 2/3 is a lot heavier than for 50 Hz. So a train designed originally for 50 Hz only may have power restrictions or need more changes to accept 16 Hz 2/3.
Meanwhile, accepting 50 Hz on a system designed for 16Hz is a smaller change and likely doesn't affect he performance (in all examples I know which have been adapted this way, like the ICE3 BR403/406 and the Traxx BR145/185, the power is the same).



Coccodrillo said:


> I don't think so, not all French locos can run under 3 kV and not all Italian locos can run under 25 kV (but most 3 kV can also run under 1.5 kV or can be easily adapted).


Those aren't used on the trans-alpine route. I meant all trains that currently cross the French-Italian border* can also run under 25 kV (however the Diesel ones probably won't be allowed in the base tunnel).

* Well, I'm not sure that other locos that the BB36300 can do the whole route, along with the TGV R Italia and the Frecciarossa 1000.


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## kokomo

I was watching a video today and it mentioned that the Direttisima is expected to be upgraded to 280 km/h in the near future. Is that correct? 280 in 3kV DC can hold?


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## davide84

For both there is no official plan, but for the 460 there are rumors.

Trenitalia is currently in the process of removing the brands Frecciargento and Frecciabianca, converting all long-distance "high speed" trainsets to Frecciarossa. The 485 (Frecciargento) and the 460 (Frecciabianca) are the only exceptions and should keep their current branding at least until December.









Ferrovie.it - Il Frecciarossa si rinnova: arrivano nuova livrea e nuovi treni


MILANO - Ci sono sempre più Frecciarossa nel futuro di Trenitalia. La conferenza stampa di...




www.ferrovie.it





IMHO the 485 are a good candidate to be moved to Greece, if the new services there are successful. But it's my personal speculation.


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## intersezioni

new FRECCIAROSSA LIVERY.
The FRECCIARGENTO AND FRECCIABIANCA service will be eliminated. All high-speed services will be under the FRECCIAROSSA brand


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## intersezioni

ETR 700 and 500


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## bruno amsterdamski

^^ Is ETR 700 only deployed or route Roma-Bari?
Is it always sinlge traction or double is also in use?


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## M-NL

What a waste of money. Change the Frecciargento and Frecciabianca decalls to Frecciarossa and leave the rest as-is until the next major overhaul of the train.
All money for changing the livery could be used for extra maintenance or something like that.


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## keber

How is the construction of HSL going towards Genova? Any news?


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## davide84

M-NL said:


> All money for changing the livery could be used for extra maintenance or something like that.


According to Italian sources, the new livery is an internal design done at no extra cost. FSI also claims that a new type of painting is used and it will make it much easier to remove graffiti.


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## M-NL

Whichever way you turn it, repainting a train costs extra time and money, because there is already paint on the trains. All current Freccia liveries have more or less the same style and use more or less the same colours. Leave that on until you have a good reason to change it. It's not like when the V250 livery was changed from the Fyra to the ETR 700 livery. Yes, that was necessary, because they are completely different. But for the ETR700 alone I've seen at least 4 different ones on that one model alone.

I've now seen several travel reports on Italian trains, where seats are torn, panels or plug sockets are loose or there are other weird noises coming from the trains. What use is that shiny new paintjob on the outside when on the inside you have to spend hours in a broken seat, where you run the risk of an electric shock and are surrounded by rattling panels?


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## davide84

Don't exaggerate 🙂 Pre-covid Trenitalia had a net income of more than 600 million Euro per year, if they decide for a new livery they surely don't have to cut on maintenance in order to do it.


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## pccvspw999

Furthermore, Trenitalia hasn’t trains to spare. They certainly won’t put any vehicle on hold just to repaint it in a new livery.
It has been done for these 4 trains for marketing purposes, the rest of the fleet will get it during scheduled maintainence stops.


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## intersezioni

keber said:


> How is the construction of HSL going towards Genova? Any news?


The works are proceeding expeditiously, opening scheduled by 2024. The works for the doubling of the Genoa - Ventimiglia on the Andora-Finale Ligure railway line should finally start, almost all works in the tunnel for 30 km.
Finally, it will be possible to exploit an international route that connects the Cote d'Azur and the South of France with Northern Italy.

@M-NL
OMG but how do you do such an argument
the design and application of trenitalia liveries are all done internally by the company.
Trenitalia is an international company, it operates in England, France, Spain, Germany, Greece etc ... they will certainly not go into crisis to make a livery.

+++"I've now seen several travel reports on Italian trains, where seats are torn, panels or plug sockets are loose or there are other weird noises coming from the trains. What use is that shiny new paintjob on the outside when on the inside you have to spend hours in a broken seat, where you run the risk of an electric shock and are surrounded by rattling panels? "+++

the same pictures and videos I saw them on Dutch trains.
How exaggerated you are, your envy of Italy borders on racism.
The Frecciarossa service is one of the best in the world according to all railway organizations and millions of Italian and foreign customers, so I understand your envy as a frustrated Dutchman, get out of your bedroom where you are locked up and come to Italy to experience the service for yourself instead of making judgments by watching some videos on youtube.


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## keber

intersezioni said:


> The works are proceeding expeditiously, opening scheduled by 2024. The works for the doubling of the Genoa - Ventimiglia on the Andora-Finale Ligure railway line should finally start, almost all works in the tunnel for 30 km.
> Finally, it will be possible to exploit an international route that connects the Cote d'Azur and the South of France with Northern Italy.


What would be expected travel times between Milano-Genova or Milano-Ventimiglia when all this is finished?


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## intersezioni

keber said:


> What would be expected travel times between Milano-Genova or Milano-Ventimiglia when all this is finished?


Milano - Genova 50 minutes, compared to an hour and 40 minutes now


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## M-NL

intersezioni said:


> the design and application of trenitalia liveries are all done internally by the company.


And internal employees and paint used are free?


intersezioni said:


> the same pictures and videos I saw them on Dutch trains.
> How exaggerated you are, your envy of Italy borders on racism.


I've been on plenty of Dutch trains with torn seats and rattling panels, but none had exposed electrical wiring. Trains with exposed wiring are taken out of service immediately, other defects are usually repaired at the next service check.

Did I claim anywhere that Italian railways are bad? Because I didn't. Did I claim anywhere that Dutch railways are better? Because they aren't. In fact, there is plenty wrong with the Dutch railways, but most of that is discussed on the Dutch speaking part of SSC or different fora. I only stated that I would have made a different decision on liveries. Dutch railways also came up with a new livery, but, for the time being, it is only applied on the double decker Intercity trains currently receiving their midlife update, not on the other trains, not even the ones currently being newly built. And just so you know, I still intend to visit Italy to ride some trains there someday.


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## PippO.SkaiO

M-NL said:


> And internal employees and paint used are free?
> 
> I've been on plenty of Dutch trains with torn seats and rattling panels, but none had exposed electrical wiring. Trains with exposed wiring are taken out of service immediately, other defects are usually repaired at the next service check.
> 
> Did I claim anywhere that Italian railways are bad? Because I didn't. Did I claim anywhere that Dutch railways are better? Because they aren't. In fact, there is plenty wrong with the Dutch railways, but most of that is discussed on the Dutch speaking part of SSC or different fora. I only stated that I would have made a different decision on liveries. Dutch railways also came up with a new livery, but, for the time being, it is only applied on the double decker Intercity trains currently receiving their midlife update, not on the other trains, not even the ones currently being newly built. And just so you know, I still intend to visit Italy to ride some trains there someday.


This repaint flame is completly nonsense: you don't even know how it is rolled out and how often TI trains are repainted.
For example on ETR500 trainsets only locos are repainted with the new livery for now 


> *ETR 400/Frecciarossa 1000 liveries in the last months:*


----------



## brick84

*Rome Fiumicino airport to develop direct high-speed rail links with Italian cities*








FS-ADR, da Napoli e Firenze a Fiumicino aeroporto con Trenitalia


Roma, 12 luglio 2022 Tre nuove corse Frecciarossa da e per Fiumicino Aeroporto, con una novità assoluta: il collegamento diretto fra lo scalo aeroportuale romano e le stazioni Napoli Centrale e Nap...




www.fsitaliane.it


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## brick84

_







#BrennerBaseTunnel: excavation works begin on new lot of the project, world’s longest #railway #tunnel under construction!

Ground-breaking ceremony marks beginning of work on Lot H41 Gola del #SillPfons in #Austria, one of the biggest sections of the Brenner Base Tunnel. Connecting #Italy and Austria under the #Alps once completed, it will become part of the Scandinavian-Mediterranean Corridor.

#Webuild reinforces commitment to #TENTnetwork with some of the main #highspeed #rail projects in #Europe. _


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## brick84




----------



## glksc

*Italy: New High Speed Rail Services Improve Integration Between Rail and Air Travel*​








Italy: New High Speed Rail Services Improve Integration Between Rail and Air Travel


Three new Trenitalia Frecciarossa services have begun this week providing direct connections between Rome’s Fiumicino Airport and Naples.




railway-news.com




*







*​


> These make travel between the airport and Padua, Bologna, Florence and Rome much easier by connecting the destinations to the direct Leonardo Express routes between Fiumicino and Roma Termini and to the FL1 Fiumicino Airport – Rome – Orte line regional connections.
> 
> Two services offer travel to and from Naples, while one departs from Florence, adding to the Frecce (Frecciargento) to and from Venice.
> 
> The new services, which were commissioned on 11 July, are the outcome of a sustainable mobility agreement signed in March by FS Italiane and Aeroporti di Roma.


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## intersezioni




----------

