# 4-Way stops or Roundabouts?



## Alex Von Königsberg (Jan 28, 2007)

*Roundabout vs. 4-way STOP*

Let's talk about the advantages and disadvantages of modern roundabouts compared to 4-way STOP intersections. 

Here is an example of a modern roundabout:










How it works:
Traffic already on the circle always has the right of way
Entering traffic should stop only to yield to drivers already on roundabout, otherwise they must not stop
Pedestrian crosswalk can only cross the path of entering/exiting traffic, but not roundabout itself
Parking within roundabout is prohibited

Here is an example of a typical American 4-way STOP intersection:










How it works:
Traffic from every direction must come to a full stop (even if the intersection is empty)
First come - first go basis
If two vehicles get to intersection at the same time, the one on the right should go first

Here is how a 4-way STOP intersection compares to the roundabout in terms of conflict points for vehicles:










Conflict points for bicycles:










A typical capacity for roundabouts (vehicles per hour):
One-lane: 2500-2800
Two-lane: 3500-4000
Three-lane: 5,800+

Maximum capacity for 4-way STOP intersection is 1,300 vehicles per hour (need confirmation). 

Which alternative would you prefer: all-way stop or roundabout? What is your justification?


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## gladisimo (Dec 11, 2006)

Stop signs would provide a society like the US with more arbitrary rules, and it seems like people would follow it better than a constantly moving roundabout.

Accounting for speed variations, less "skilled" drivers might find it hard to enter a roundabout under heavy traffic. 

As a tool of traffic, I think stop signs are more useful in preventing accidents, etc. And provide more order by making everyone stop. 

Personally, I prefer roundabouts. Sorry if my analysis is flawed, i am tired!


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## Alex Von Königsberg (Jan 28, 2007)

However, the statistique shows a noticeable reduction in accidents with introduction of roundabouts. I don't have the numbers with me, but two years ago Sacramento municipal department of road safety provided me with the statistique showing almost 50% reduction of injury-related accidents. 

I drove through one that was built nearly 5 years ago and noticed that all drivers feel quite comfortable navigating it. They did not fail to yield nor made unnecessary stops either.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Roundabouts are generally a much better solution, but only if there's not too many of them, especially on main roads; except if 2 (or more) main roads intersect.


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## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

in shown occasions - roundabout is better. but at large intersections with roads with more lanes roundabouts are not good because they start to be very confusing. so, for not large crossroads - roundabouts, for large crossroads - traffic lights.


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## Rohne (Feb 20, 2007)

I hate those polls!
Always depends on the kind of road. Available space, amount of traffic (if there's too much traffic, 4-way STOP will be better then a roundabout),...


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## mgk920 (Apr 21, 2007)

Here in Wisconsin, WisDOT (the state agency responsible for building/maintaining the state's highways) has a policy to require the study of a roundabout option for ANY intersection on a road under its control if it is due for either reconstruction or new construction and traffic and other indications call for _signals_. It obviously does not mean that the intersection will become a roundabout, but it is studied. In the instances where they have been installed, including several here in the Appleton area, they have worked VERY WELL and many more are expected in the next few years.

I do like that they offer a free flow of traffic, are self-regulating and cost far less than installing and maintaining signals.

There is a complex intersection here in the City of Appleton (east end of the College Av bridge over the Fox River) where WisDOT engineers studied a two-lane roundabout vs. a redesigned conventional signalized intersection when the bridge is replaced starting next year and they found that the roundabout would cost over a half-million dollars less than the conventional intersection and take 5 or 6 fewer houses.

Amazing. 

Are they perfect for every situation? Not in the least, but they most certainly do have a place in the list of options.

Mike


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## radi6404 (May 13, 2007)

x-type said:


> in shown occasions - roundabout is better. but at large intersections with roads with more lanes roundabouts are not good because they start to be very confusing. so, for not large crossroads - roundabouts, for large crossroads - traffic lights.


true, i prefer roundabouts on two lame roads always over normal junctions but for motorways they are IMO not suitable, in Austria there are roundabouts on motorway junctions, i don´t find that very good.


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## keber (Nov 8, 2006)

Is roundabout something new in US? I don't remember seeing a picture of one from US nor Canada.


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## ADCS (Oct 30, 2006)

keber said:


> Is roundabout something new in US? I don't remember seeing a picture of one from US nor Canada.


A "roundabout" per se is relatively new. Those designed with modern features have only been around for 10 years or so here. Antiquated traffic circles are fairly common in the Northeast, though.


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## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

radi6404 said:


> true, i prefer roundabouts on two lame roads always over normal junctions but for motorways they are IMO not suitable, in Austria there are roundabouts on motorway junctions, i don´t find that very good.


in Zagreb we have 2 quite large roundabouts, each has 3 lanes and all roads that come there are 6 laned. those places are known as real fear-factor in Zagreb!
also, roundabout at Pesnica, Slovenia is quite messy in that way, or one in Graz near bypass motorway


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## CrazyAboutCities (Feb 14, 2007)

Roundabouts are much better for numerous of reasons.

-Save energy from traffic lights
-Slow the traffics down
-Reduce pollution
-Safer for cyclers
-More pedestrians friendly
-Traffics can keep going without stopping.
-Almost no accidents

Bend, Oregon has numerous of roundabouts and more new roundabouts are under construction or planned. I believe that Bend is the nations's only city that has more than 14 roundabouts so far. Please correct me if I am wrong. I have pictures of some roundabouts in Bend. I can show here if you guys want to.


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## edolen1 (Oct 12, 2004)

x-type said:


> in Zagreb we have 2 quite large roundabouts, each has 3 lanes and all roads that come there are 6 laned. those places are known as real fear-factor in Zagreb!
> also, roundabout at Pesnica, Slovenia is quite messy in that way, or one in Graz near bypass motorway


Yes, however the interchange in Pesnica is only half-built, the roundabout was never meant for transit traffic. When fully built, a flyover will be added for the new motorway going past Maribor. But I agree with you, yes, the current situation is very messy, not to mention it serves both local traffic and expressway traffic!

I generally prefer roundabouts, however for a junction with a lot of traffic an intersection with traffic lights or a grade-separated junction would be better.


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## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

CrazyAboutCities said:


> -Traffics can keep going without stopping.
> -Almost no accidents


ain't no true. at least in Europe.


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## Billpa (Feb 26, 2006)

CrazyAboutCities said:


> I have pictures of some roundabouts in Bend. I can show here if you guys want to.


Post them, please...
I heard Oregon was on the forefront of this here in the US along with Utah and Maryland.


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## arriaca (Feb 28, 2006)

Cool roundabout in Guadalajara (Spain)


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## CrazyAboutCities (Feb 14, 2007)

x-type said:


> ain't no true. at least in Europe.


That's funny... Before City of Bend installed roundabouts... Bend had numerous of automobile accidents... After they changed it to roundabouts, its reduced the number of accidents dramatically. It only reported two accidents on roundabouts in the last few years... Only two of them are drunk drivers. Bend still have many intersections and still have some accidents but not on roundabouts. Soon all busy intersections in Bend will be replaced with roundabouts within few years from now.


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## CrazyAboutCities (Feb 14, 2007)

*Bend, Oregon Roundabouts with Public Artworks*


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

^ Very nice roundabout!  There's a roundabout in my city with accident almost every day.


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## CrazyAboutCities (Feb 14, 2007)

^^ Thanks. Sounds like they're bad drivers.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

same rank junctions is something different than 4-way stops! 

In a same rank junction, you only have to yield to the right, in a 4-way stop, you have the obligation to stop and let the other one pass who came first, despite of the direction he came from, if i understand correctly.


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

I've only seen one roundabout here, and it's in an isolated area near the airport.

So, I'm going to go with 4-way stops, it's the norm here.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Chriszwolle said:


> same rank junctions is something different than 4-way stops!
> 
> In a same rank junction, you only have to yield to the right, in a 4-way stop, you have the obligation to stop and let the other one pass who came first, despite of the direction he came from, if i understand correctly.


If every single direction have a stop sign,that equals not having any...the difference is only that you have to stop. Right-hand rule applies,with the right of way rule as secondary.


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## Troopchina (Oct 7, 2005)

Roundabouts of course. Much better and more eye-pleasing. 

I've seen 4 way stops only in the US, not in Europe. 

In Zagreb, IMHO, there are too many traffic light intersections and many of those should be replaced by roundabouts.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

With traffic lights, you are able to control the traffic flows better. Not with roundabouts. 

Like you don't want the green-phase somewhere too long, because the next section can't handle that much traffic. So you have to queue the traffic somewhere to avoid other places to be congested. 

This is not possible with roundabouts. Traffic lights also have a higher capacity. So congestion should take place earlier at a roundabout than at a traffic light intersection.

I have a roundabout at one of my commute routes, which can be terribly congested, sometimes you have to wait 10 - 15 minutes over 300 meters to enter a roundabout.


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## Troopchina (Oct 7, 2005)

Chris I agree with you. I was referring to low-traffic intersections, I have some in my neighborhood, you'll never see more than 2 or 3 cars on that intersection at the same time, but local authority decided to put the traffic lights even though there's plenty of space and a roundabout would fit perfectly


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## Realek (Mar 19, 2006)

Both are bad, but if I had to choose, then overall a 4-way stop is even worse than a roundabout.


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

Chriszwolle said:


> With traffic lights, you are able to control the traffic flows better. Not with roundabouts.
> 
> Like you don't want the green-phase somewhere too long, because the next section can't handle that much traffic. So you have to queue the traffic somewhere to avoid other places to be congested.
> 
> This is not possible with roundabouts. Traffic lights also have a higher capacity. So congestion should take place earlier at a roundabout than at a traffic light intersection.


Capacity isn't everything. Roundabouts are much safer than other types of intersections. Plus, in many urban and suburban areas, rush hour congestion is so endemic that improving flow at one intersection just force-feeds other nearby intersections more efficiently. So the choice isn't more congesttion versus less, it's an undetectable difference in congestion levels but a significant improvement in safety. I vote for the latter.

BTW, I live in Gwinnett County, GA, USA, which has 800,000 people and exactly one proper roundabout, which opened a couple of weeks ago.

Back on topic: There are a good many four-way stops around here, and as big a fan of roundabouts as I am, I don't see many of them that are obvious sites for roundabouts. But there are plenty of sites I know of where multiphase traffic signals, turn lanes, underground drainage, etc. were installed and where roundabouts should've at least been considered.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

I definitely think roundabouts are the safer of the two types of intersection. They flow well and give priority to the busiest entrance by merit of action. I don't agree with a few international rules with roundabouts such as the French "give way to those joining the roundabout". This, in my opinion, doesn't work as well as the simple "give way to the right" (or left for right hand driving countries). 

The only downside with roundabouts is that they are not as pedestrian friendly as a traffic light manned intersection unless underpasses are built for pedestrians (as is frequent in the UK).


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## TheCat (Apr 21, 2006)

RawLee said:


> If every single direction have a stop sign,that equals not having any...the difference is only that you have to stop. Right-hand rule applies,with the right of way rule as secondary.


No. Chris was actually right. In an all-way (4-way) stop junction, the right of way goes to the person who stopped first, not to the person who comes from the right. Only if two people stopped at the same time, does the person from the right go first, but that is quite rare.

Also, a lot of these rules are formalities (at least here in Toronto). Almost no one actually stops at an all-way stop sign, unless there already is a car stopped or very close to the intersection. One feature of all-way stops is that if one approaches such an intersection, then one can just slow down and continue driving without stopping completely, even if there is a car approaching from the side (unlike a normal stop sign), because you know that the other driver will have to stop, and that you will come first (of course, you should make sure that the other driver is slowing down to stop).

Also, most drivers in North America (at least here in Toronto, from my personal experience) aren't very familiar with the right priority rule, simply because it rarely applies here. While it exists in the driver education books for an uncontrolled intersection, North America does not use the priority (yellow square) sign. Theoretically, it is a bad system, because ideally when one approaches an intersection without any signs, one has to make sure that the crossing direction has a stop or yield sign (otherwise the right has priority), but in reality, such intersections are virtually non-existent here, and I would say completely non-existent in large cities. So if you see no signs at an intersection, you just go through without slowing down (the other direction will always have a stop sign).

However, the side effect of this is that if 2 cars come to an all-way stop intersection at the same time, very often the right of way rule (priorite a droite) isn't actually used (even though by law it should), but instead the drivers just negotiate by looking at each other, waving, and just slowly starting to move (most people have an automatic transmission, so it's easy to crawl ) While it may sound confusing, it works quite well, and the drivers here are generally very courteous (unlike in some places in Europe). Such a situation isn't that common anyway, except during rush hour when many drivers take the smaller streets to avoid the traffic on the larger ones.

Main streets almost never have all-way stops (at least here in Toronto). They always have traffic lights. Sometimes you do have 4-lane roads intersecting with all-way stops (at some large shopping areas), and it's often quite confusing in this case.


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## Czas na Żywiec (Jan 17, 2005)

I like both for different reasons.

For higher traffic areas, I prefer 4 way stops. (Higher traffic as in not enough traffic to warrant a light) That way, you aren't waiting forever to pass the intersection. Mostly during the day, everyone gets an equal chance to get through the intersection at the same rate. Wheras sometimes I am waiting to turn into a roudabout forever.

When there is less traffic, of course roundabouts are better. I've lived in Boulder, CO for a while and we have more roundabouts here than a normal city in Colorado and they are 100% better than 4 way stops when then aren't any cars around. When there is no traffic, you can just keep driving down the street without stopping one single time. However we do have some streets without them, instead having 4 way stops, and having to stop at every single intersection is so annoying. Especially when it's later in the day and there isn't a single car around. Having to stop 10 times within 10 blocks is the most pointless thing ever. If it wasn't for cops patrolling all the time, I would just blow it off. But like most people, I do a half stop, I get to the intersection, if there is no one around, I slow down then speed back up again to get through the intersection.

Both are nice to have, I definitely lean more towards roundabouts, but sometimes 4 way stops are the way to go.


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## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

people here are right - roundabouts are the safest intersections. nobody is doing more than 30-40 km/h, depends about size, and at this speed the worst thing you can do is crumpled bonnet or door. at normal intersections you will allways have idiots or uncareful drivers who don't stop at STOP or red light and we know how those accidents finnish. 

but roundabouts are not allways aceptable - i'd say they are perfect for medium traffic or maybe little bit higher. for high traffic they are not the best solution, and for low traffic there is no need for them.


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## LT1550 (Oct 15, 2007)

Roundabout is not as dangerous as a 4-Way Stop I think


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## Plumber73 (Mar 3, 2005)

Some neighborhoods here are slowly having more 4-way stop (usually, it's just 2-way stop... the other 2 don't have stop signs) intersections replaced with roundabouts, which are really 4-way intesections with the stop signs removed, and a circle built in the middle. In this case, I prefer the roundabout. The only problem is the odd person will drive through without slowing down or looking, so you have to approach these with some caution. Then again, you have to approach anything with caution.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Problem is that a good normal-designed roundabout takes up 40 meters in diameter. There isn't always room for that. 

And a lot of US streets inside cities are 2 lanes per direction. That means you can't build a roundabout, or you need very much space to construct one.


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## Billpa (Feb 26, 2006)

I travel through four-way stops all the time and they are not at all dangerous. I can't remember ever seeing a collision in one- and if there was one it likely wouldn't be deadly because people are going so slow through them.
"The Cat" was right when he talked about people making eye contact. That happens a lot when two people have approached at the same time. I think most drivers understand the person to the right has the right-of-way when two vehicles have approached at the same time- but it's always good to have a glance at the other driver to make sure he or she is thinking the same way.


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## DanielFigFoz (Mar 10, 2007)

I've never seen a 4-way, I think they only exist in the Americas but I think roudabouts are better.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

TheCat said:


> No. Chris was actually right. In an all-way (4-way) stop junction, the right of way goes to the person who stopped first, not to the person who comes from the right. Only if two people stopped at the same time, does the person from the right go first, but that is quite rare.











This sign means exactly the same as 4 stop signs.
If there are no traffic lights,and every road is on the same rank,or have a stop sign(or primacy sign),the first who gets to it has the right of way. If more people get there at the same time,the one to the right. The 4-way stop is the same-rank junction,but you're obliged to stop there,because of the stop sign,whereas in the same-rank junction,you dont have to.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

It doesn't mean that in the Netherlands, here, it means "dangerous crossing/intersection".


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

It means that because its not controlled. You have to slow down,and look around. I bet its not placed at roundabouts or traffic lights.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

We only have this sign. You are obligated to stop here, even if there is no traffic. (very little people actually do this, they just slow down, and check if the road is clear).

Usually placed near crossings with buildings next to it, so you can't see if traffic is approaching with normal speed.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Same here. Then there is the 








which means the same,but you dont have to stop. If every direction have any of these(both mean that you are obliged to give up your priority),than that means everyone have to give up priority,which equals to junctions that have no signs or anything at all.
So a 4way-stop is only present because of the environment nearby(I assume),but it is not different from a same-rank junction,which doesnt have any signs.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

a 4-way stop is actually worse for the environment than other non-regulated crossings. A car pollutes the most with acceleration.


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## rick1016 (Jan 16, 2005)

I voted both because in certain areas both can be good, but overall 4 way stops would probably be best.


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## LT1550 (Oct 15, 2007)

At 4-Way-Stops you have to commuticate with the other drivers sometimes and it can be confusing if they misunderstood each other...
Roundabouts have clear rules, so this is the better one.


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## radi6404 (May 13, 2007)

I also voted both


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## Republica (Jun 30, 2005)

This is an amazing roundabout in Swindon, UK


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## TheCat (Apr 21, 2006)

RawLee said:


> Same here. Then there is the
> 
> 
> 
> ...


RawLee, again, you are not exactly correct. The concept of a 4-way stop does not exist anywhere in the world except for the US and Canada. I'm not sure what it means to have stop or yield signs at all directions in the rest of the world, but the 4-way stop is actually a special feature/traffic rule in North America, and is a separate feature with unique rules.

In an uncontrolled same-rank intersection the person on the right always has the right of way, not only if both have arrived at the same time. If you arrive at a same-rank intersection in Europe, you have to check carefully and make sure that no one is approaching from your right.

A 4-way stop intersection in North America is different. The person who stops first always has the right of way. Even if two drivers approach the intersection at almost the same time, but one driver stops a little earlier, that driver has the right of way, even if the other driver is to the right. Such an intersection must have stop signs (it cannot function without them), because without stop signs it is impossible to judge who arrived first, and it would be extremely dangerous and impossible to apply the rules of a 4-way stop to this situation.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

^^Well,that circumstance was unknown for me...my impression is that its a bit more dangerous than same-rank junctions,because it can be debatable who was there first,but only 1 person can be on your right. Though it would need 2 ******** who dont want to let the other to become dangerous.
Personally,I like traffic lights,because I've seen stupid drivers who think being first at the entrance of the roundabout allows the driver to neglect the other cars inside it.


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## TheCat (Apr 21, 2006)

lpioe said:


> I've never seen a 4-way stop.





x-type said:


> i have never seen 4 way stop,





Troopchina said:


> I've seen 4 way stops only in the US, not in Europe.





DanielFigFoz said:


> I've never seen a 4-way, I think they only exist in the Americas but I think roudabouts are better.


You are all correct, because 4-way (or all-way, as they are more commonly known in Ontario) stops only exist in the US and Canada (perhaps some other country has them, but I haven't heard of any other country so far). They are not exactly equivalent to any other intersection type.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Maybe thats the reason...I've never seen more than 2 yield signs either in a junction(assuming 4 roads meet).


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## TheCat (Apr 21, 2006)

RawLee said:


> ^^Well,that circumstance was unknown for me...my impression is that its a bit more dangerous than same-rank junctions,because it can be debatable who was there first,but only 1 person can be on your right. Though it would need 2 ******** who dont want to let the other to become dangerous.
> Personally,I like traffic lights,because I've seen stupid drivers who think being first at the entrance of the roundabout allows the driver to neglect the other cars inside it.


You are correct in certain situations. However, even if two drivers can't decide who was there first, the possibility of a collision is small, because both drivers would be first stopped or crawling very slowly. A same-rank intersection is more dangerous (arguably it's the most dangerous type if it is not the only type ), because in such intersections a driver who sees no conflicts from the right continues driving without significantly reducing speed. In a 4-way junction, even if someone starts moving slowly when they technically don't have the right of way (actually that happens very often when such a junction is congested and there are always 4 cars arriving every few seconds from all directions), the other drivers just let the driver through.

By the way, I do agree that roundabouts are safer and better in many situations. However, they are more expensive and difficult to implement, since they often require building a physical circle. On the other hand, 4-way junctions are much simpler - just throw in a stop sign at each direction, put a little "4-way" or "all-way" label under each (quite important!), and you are done.

Personally I think that intersections where there is more than one lane per direction should use neither roundabouts, nor 4-way stops, because both can be confusing and dangerous. In this case, only traffic lights or just normal stop signs or yield signs (if the intersecting road is not major).


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## Maxx☢Power (Nov 16, 2005)

Republica said:


> This is an amazing roundabout in Swindon, UK


Amazingly confusing.. Is this the "Magic Roundabout"?


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## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

yes, it's magic roundabout. it is not that confusing as it seems at first sight. the only confusing thing is driving at left at this pic


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## Wu-Gambino (Dec 13, 2002)

Living in Americana, four way stops are everywhere. However, the trend is now to switch to roundabouts. This has occurred in the suburb I live in, which now has two or three roundabouts and is constructing more. I think both have there pros and cons, but roundabouts are definitely more fun to drive in.


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## Jeroen669 (Nov 29, 2006)

TheCat said:


> In a 4-way junction, even if someone starts moving slowly when they technically don't have the right of way (actually that happens very often when such a junction is congested and there are always 4 cars arriving every few seconds from all directions), the other drivers just let the driver through.


Stopping would be 0km/h, nothing more. So if you have let's say 5 four-way stops on your way, you really need to slow down to zero 5 times, even if there's no other traffic? That seems kinda frustrating. And it's not good for pollution too, as someone already said. The positive thing about the european system that the speed you can cross the crossing is depending on the sight you have on the road on the right. So if there's a very good sight, you mostly don't even have to slow down, or maybe just a little.

In most cases I don't prefer round-abouts. The problem is that not each road connection is getting the same amount of traffic (while the're getting the same amount of capacity), so in most cases traffic lights, of just making one road major would handle traffic better. In Holland, there's an other (safety) problem with round-abouts: bicycles. Round-abouts without free bicycle paths are very dangerous, especially in combination with a big amount of truck traffic. Even if bicycles have a free path on the round-about (which are >95%) risks are not excluded. Since bicycles (and also pedestrians, of course) do much faster get injured, it's important to consider that...


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## TheCat (Apr 21, 2006)

Jeroen669 said:


> Stopping would be 0km/h, nothing more. So if you have let's say 5 four-way stops on your way, you really need to slow down to zero 5 times, even if there's no other traffic? That seems kinda frustrating. And it's not good for pollution too, as someone already said. The positive thing about the european system that the speed you can cross the crossing is depending on the sight you have on the road on the right. So if there's a very good sight, you mostly don't even have to slow down, or maybe just a little.


People rarely stop at 4-way intersections. They only stop if it won't be clear who arrived first, or there already are cars at the intersection. Otherwise, you just slow down, and since there is no car immediately adjacent to the intersection, you can just continue to accelerate without giving way to anyone.


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

There is a street in Tallinn that has a roundabout every 200m. The point of building these was to reduce speed and it's working well. Drivers see that there is no point in driving fast when you have to brake at every roundabout so they just cruise with and even speed.


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## Republica (Jun 30, 2005)

I tell you what pisses me off, the mini roundabouts they are putting in everywhere and theres no surprise that they do this kind of thing in march when they realise they have underspent the local transport budget.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

^^I hate mini-roundabouts...you have to slow down so much that even 30 feels like you are going to fly off the road.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

There are quite a lot of those 4-way stops here in Malmö actually, even on some smaller streets in the inner city. Round-abouts are pretty much everywhere though.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Roundabouts - much easier to navigate heavy traffic safely


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## TooFar (Apr 6, 2004)

The problem I find in Quebec is that it appears that the Department of Roads just wack a stop sign in people’s front lawns with little consideration for visibility. Combine that with a sidewalk the starts at the curb and no white line at the intersection and maybe a tree, means you often don’t see the stop sign until the very last moment. 

From what I remember in Australia, there was always a stop sign in the middle of the road, between the two lanes, and also a white line. Making it very clear that you had to stop.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

i think the US should have more roundabouts instead of 4-way stops. roundabouts are more safe because you can see whats coming. as opposed to 4 -ways where you can't nomarly can't see whos coming!


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## Alex Von Königsberg (Jan 28, 2007)

Republica said:


> I tell you what pisses me off, the mini roundabouts they are putting in everywhere and theres no surprise that they do this kind of thing in march when they realise they have underspent the local transport budget.


Well, at least in the UK those mini roundabouts still have the same regulations as other roundabouts (yield to those already in roundabouts, etc). In the USA, they also put mini "traffic circles" in residential areas for the only purpose to reduce the speed. However, most of the time they don't have _yield_ signs at the entrance, so if I am already in this traffic circle planning to turn left or make a U-turn, I have no idea whether the oncoming traffic will yield to me or not. Should I even mention that a typical American driver has no idea about "yield to the right" rule at uncontrolled intersections?


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## scotdaliney (Dec 1, 2006)

In Australia we have mainly used roundabouts for most small intersections. Up until about 10 years ago when they started building some rather large dual lane roundabouts on main roads. They work great in my opinion, even if they get pretty busy there is still alot less wait that at lights. Have never seen 4 way stop signs, sounds messy and slow to me.


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## Coneslammer (Jun 26, 2006)

scotdaliney said:


> In Australia we have mainly used roundabouts for most small intersections. Up until about 10 years ago when they started building some rather large dual lane roundabouts on main roads. They work great in my opinion, even if they get pretty busy there is still alot less wait that at lights. Have never seen 4 way stop signs, sounds messy and slow to me.


I think there's a couple here in Sydney, around Lane Cove I think.


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## jamesinclair (Mar 21, 2006)

In california Im used to 4 way stops, at very large intersections.

One near my house has 8 lanes each way. 

(south three lanes)||left | ^ | ^ | ^ | right


Meanwhile, Boston is a mix. A bunch of small (2 lane) 4 way stops and roundabouts (called rotarys)

In Brazil, you have neither. Either a stoplight, or a priority. That is, one road has to stop, the other doesnt.


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## Billpa (Feb 26, 2006)

jamesinclair said:


> In california Im used to 4 way stops, at very large intersections.
> 
> One near my house has 8 lanes each way.
> 
> (south three lanes)||left | ^ | ^ | ^ | right


That seems a bit ridiculous. How would anyone be able to keep track of who got to the intersection first?


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## TheCat (Apr 21, 2006)

jamesinclair said:


> In california Im used to 4 way stops, at very large intersections.
> 
> One near my house has 8 lanes each way.
> 
> ...


:shocked: That's insane!
I consider an intersection with 2x2 roads to be very large and quite confusing if it uses 4-way stops. On a road like you described we would likely have traffic lights with a left turn arrow. That's crazy.


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## Jean Luc (Mar 23, 2006)

How about a five-road two-way roundabout?

The "Magic Roundabout" in Swindon, west of London, U.K.:




























There are five mini-roundabouts, one at each of the roads that meets it. You can either go clockwise around the outside lanes, or anti-clockwise around the inside lanes. Apparently it works quite well at handling the traffic. The locals are of course used to it but visitors who aren't might find themselves literally going around in circles! :nuts:


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## Jean Luc (Mar 23, 2006)

A similar thread exists in the OzScrapers (Australia & New Zealand) forum: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=568250 (Traffic Lights or Roundabouts?)


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## scotdaliney (Dec 1, 2006)

jamesinclair said:


> In california Im used to 4 way stops, at very large intersections.
> 
> One near my house has 8 lanes each way.
> 
> ...


Rotarys and roundabouts are two very different forms of intersections. The former being inefficient and dangerous the second safe and efficient.


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## Republica (Jun 30, 2005)

Jean Luc said:


> How about a five-road two-way roundabout?
> 
> The "Magic Roundabout" in Swindon, west of London, U.K.:
> 
> ...


Ahem! http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=17509407&postcount=39


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## sk (Dec 6, 2005)

here in nicosia we have dozens of roundabouts,they are the worst thing that could happen to this city.
traffic jams are a daily phenomenon at roundabouts.


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## konthaimaitalorkan (Nov 19, 2007)

Runabout makes the traffic goes smoothly unless if the traffic are heavy ot the driver don't know how to use it.

Like the Victory Monument in Bangkok.Traffic Lights are installed. Don't worry of pedestrian, they use skywalk above.


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## sk (Dec 6, 2005)

the problem here is the heavy traffic.
they installed traffic lights in a roundabout in another cypriot city and i think its working better


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## urbanfan89 (May 30, 2007)

The regional government here has embarked on a plan to convert congested intersections to roundabouts. A few weeks ago a small scandal occurred when one city council passed a bylaw to restrict adult entertainment facilities. Why? Because the only one in the city was located next to a congested three-way intersection, which the regional government wanted to convert into a roundabout. Thus there were complaints the government was in a conspiracy to force the strip club out of business and enable them to demolish it and pave it over. :lol:


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## alesmarv (Mar 31, 2006)

Round abouts are much safer and efficient, 4 way stop signs are just idiotic because A) their confusing B) You can miss them when their obscured by a tree or something C) You have to come to a complete stop every time you enter one(those who say they dont stop, well they do ticket that in every jurisdiction in north America, though if there is no traffic around then sure lots of people dont come to a complete stop) D) when there is heavy enough traffic then it gets insanely confusing and just stupid because if there is a continual stream of cars from every direction then no one ever really knows who goes next because the pattern is set by the first car too stop even if that car stopped there hours ago. The only benefit of a 4way stop is that it takes up less room and its more direct and safer for pedestrians and bicycles. Though if there is that much traffic to warant a 4 way stop sign then there should be lights, if there isnt then one side should have the right of way and the other a stop sign. To make this safer you designate some roads as primary like in Europe. Residential streets that have no traffic should just fucntion like uncontroled intersections where you yield to the right. Roundabouts dont fit well in to a city because they take up alot of room and arent the best for pedestrians and bicyclists. Though for streets in the suburbs or outside of the city or just a place where they fit in to the sorounding area they are the most efficient for busy intersections. 
All in all north america has some stupid traffic rules but in many places people are starting to come to their senses and make changes. Though not enough.


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## Jeroen669 (Nov 29, 2006)

Who has the right of way in American round-abouts anyway? The one who's entering the round-about, of the one who's already on it?


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## Jean Luc (Mar 23, 2006)

Republica said:


> Ahem! http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=17509407&postcount=39


Sorry. I didn't realise that someone had already mentioned it! :runaway:


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## Alex Von Königsberg (Jan 28, 2007)

Jeroen669 said:


> Who has the right of way in American round-abouts anyway? The one who's entering the round-about, of the one who's already on it?


At modern roundabouts, the entering traffic has to yield to those already in the roundabout. However, there is a lot of traffic circles that don't follow the roundabout rules (i.e. have STOP signs, have pedestrian crosswalk through the middle of the circle, etc).


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## TheCat (Apr 21, 2006)

I found a nice video on Youtube of a combination of two roundabouts in the US (Arizona), filmed from every possible angle


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## Alex Von Königsberg (Jan 28, 2007)

Sweet video  It also breaks the stereotype that American drivers are not able to navigate roundabouts. They should built more of these in the US.


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## Bitxofo (Feb 3, 2005)

Roundabouts, in my opinion.
:yes:


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## TheCat (Apr 21, 2006)

A Canadian (BC) website that introduces roundabouts, and also links to a US-made video about how to properly use a multi-lane roundabout:
http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/popular-topics/roundabouts/roundabouts.htm


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## mgk920 (Apr 21, 2007)

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> At modern roundabouts, the entering traffic has to yield to those already in the roundabout. However, there is a lot of traffic circles that don't follow the roundabout rules (i.e. have STOP signs, have pedestrian crosswalk through the middle of the circle, etc).


Those older ones (almost entirely in the northeastern USA) will likely be phased out over the next couple of decades.

Mike


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## mgk920 (Apr 21, 2007)

TheCat said:


> I found a nice video on Youtube of a combination of two roundabouts in the US (Arizona), filmed from every possible angle


The Wisconsin (a USA state) Department of Transportation (WisDOT) has been going hog-wild with roundabouts over the past few years, including proposing 24(!) of them at the sidestreet interchanges and intersections in the forthcoming US 41 freeway reconstruction in the Green Bay, WI area. WisDOT is also planning four roundabouts at a US 41 interchange in nearby Neenah, WI (two at the ramp intersections and one each at the two adjacent frontage roads). Right now, that interchange (Breezewood Lane/Bell St - interchange 129) has nasty traffic backups on its main street throughout most of the day.

I can think of a whole bunch of other places in eastern Wisconsin where roundabouts would be the ideal traffic solution, too.

Mike


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## kokanee2 (Jan 27, 2008)

TooFar said:


> Which do you prefer?
> 
> I must say that growing up with roundabouts, they appear to make more sense and keep traffic flowing. However the downside is that you can wait an eternity to enter if traffic if heavy in one direction.
> 
> 4-way stops are a pain in the rear, especially in Montreal where they appear at most intersections, stop-start all the time. And then when you arrive at the same time as another car, it turns into a game of chicken.


Well... there seems to be a lot of good opinions on this topic.

In Canada, the western history entailed round-abouts in the late 1950's. I think because the canadian sentiment at that time was about rules, that the round-abouts were too relaxed. 

I know of one round-about in Victoria, BC that got eliminated because there was a daily accident. Naturally, the fact that seven roads met here had nothing to do with it. 

In Edmonton, AB, there's been one round-about that has stood the test of time since at least the 1960's.

In Surrey, BC, round-abouts were introduced in the late 1980's to slow down traffic. That seems to have worked, and since then, they have gone to be installed in Vancouver and elsewhere.

I disagree with the fact that round-abouts are not good in downtown traffic. I was once in London, England for a year, and traversed various round-abouts in serious traffic. 

I think it comes down to driver attitude. Either you're mentally "there" while driving, or you're in remote control.

In 2000, I travelled through Europe, and was astounded at how many round-abouts there were in the countryside in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Austria, Italy. I came to the conclusion that round-abouts were to be favoured over four-way stops and traffic lights, because they kept traffic flowing. No need for electricity, and no problems with power outages.

As an improved canadian solution, fourway yields (like is the rule in Alberta) could be an improvement over fourway stops.


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## TheCat (Apr 21, 2006)

kokanee2 said:


> ...
> As an improved canadian solution, fourway yields (like is the rule in Alberta) could be an improvement over fourway stops.


That's very interesting, because I proposed this previously, but mainly as a joke. Would 4-way yield actually work? In this case it is a little difficult to judge who arrives at an intersection first from a legal standpoint, even though, of course, 4-way stops function similar to 4-way yields in practice, since almost no one stops (at least here in Ontario most people don't, since it's rarely enforced).


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## Alex Von Königsberg (Jan 28, 2007)

I don't think 4-way yields would work. They sure will keep traffic flowing, but in terms of accident rate... I don't know. The advantage of roundabouts over usual intersections is that the earlier reduce the number of points at which the accidents are most likely to occur. Plus, roundabouts' geometry is such that cars are forced to slow down while navigating the roundabout even if the way is clear - the reduced speed will reduce the likelihood of serious injuries should an accident occur anyway. 

The only reason traffic engineers in America are reluctant to build more roundabouts is because it is widely believed that the American public is afraid of the progress. Especially, if it comes from Europe :lol: So-called "Euro-phobia" if you will.


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## SmarterChild (Jun 19, 2007)

^ I would say that 4-way yields are about as common as 4-way stops in Sweden, they function equally good but I think 4-way yields are preferable.


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## Jeroen669 (Nov 29, 2006)

4-way yields, is that just the same as all the unregulated (signless) crossings in Europe?


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Nope


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

4-way stop means you enter a crossing, and the first one at the intersection has the right of way. In Europe, the "yield to the right" is more common.


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## Jeroen669 (Nov 29, 2006)

According to the post of konakee2 a 4-way stop is something different then a 4-way yield.


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## Alex Von Königsberg (Jan 28, 2007)

I think there is a common misunderstanding on this forum as to what "4-way yields" is. It is a fictitious form of intersection that doesn't exist - it would be created by replacing STOP signs with YIELD signs at 4-way STOP intersections. What you have in Europe is either uncontrolled intersections (traffic on the right has the priority), roundabouts, or regulated intersections ("main road" and "secondary road" are clearly marked by appropriate signs).


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## SmarterChild (Jun 19, 2007)

^ Yup. Thou Im aware of the difference between 4-way yields and other types of intersections. 

4 way-yields are signed like this:









As opposed regulated intersections which are signed like this:










Eitherway, I don't understand why some people talk about Europe as if it was one country with identical traffic signs/rules/habits. :?


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## Alex Von Königsberg (Jan 28, 2007)

What does "Flervägs - väjning" mean? Probably, I should not have generalised the entire Europe


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## Æsahættr (Jul 9, 2004)

Roundabouts! 4-way stops; people have a sense of self-entitlement that usually ends in many accidents.


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