# TIANJIN | Yujiapu Business District | U/C



## kubachrick

Is there other Great projects like Yujiapu and xianglou in planning ?
i know something about eco-singapore that should be huge,but as i understood most of it are lowrises,am right ?


----------



## z0rg

^^ Indeed. But Singapore Eco-City is expected to host a landmark tower with an undetermined height. We don't expect a supertall though.

There's the TEDA MSD area too, where the Chow Tai Fook is being planned as the only relevant highrise there.

If you are also interested in non-tall stuff, Tianjin's coastline is growing the world's largest land reclamation projects. Several manmade peninsulas, more than 50km2 of land reclamation area.

There's also the monster Caofeidian project eastwards, but that's not Tianjin anymore but Hebei province. You also have the Huanghua port southwards, also beyond Tianjin borders. In any other country Huanghua's long term plan would be a first tier project, but in China it isn't very important.


----------



## binhai

6.12 bohaibbs.net


----------



## deepblue01

I sense that once these two CBDs are complete, the area surrounding it will be built up with appartment houses, just like shanghai


----------



## KillerZavatar

deepblue01 said:


> I sense that once these two CBDs are complete, the area surrounding it will be built up with appartment houses, just like shanghai


the question is if the CBD ever is complete. i can imagine once these project are risen others may start together with apartment houses.


----------



## gazspaz

I really hope they finish this because i really love the building with the bubbles on it and the train station looks out of this world


----------



## KillerZavatar

gazspaz said:


> I really hope they finish this because i really love the building with the bubbles on it and the train station looks out of this world


after seeing the rates of the last years in tianjin and the fact that this is not the only new district booming, there is no doubt for me this is just the start of the boom


----------



## HardBall

gazspaz said:


> I really hope they finish this because i really love the building with the bubbles on it and the train station looks out of this world


Sino-steel is one of the best designed buildings in the world right now, IMO. I'm looking forward to that completing and visiting it soon.


----------



## binhai

6.24 bohaibbs.net


----------



## binhai

7.4 bohaibbs.net


----------



## Jonipoon

Even when this is finished, they will have aloooooot of improvement to do with the surrounding areas.


----------



## binhai

The surroundings are actually one of Tianjin's best areas, of course the site itself isn't the cleanest, because it's a construction site (I visited today). Some other districts need major improvement, but they're working on it, there's many many more skyscrapers to come


----------



## dumbassmus

more cranes than i can count


----------



## binhai

7.30 bohaibbs.net


----------



## binhai

7.30 bohaibbs.net


----------



## binhai

8.2 bohaibbs.net


----------



## stefr

BarbaricManchurian said:


> 7.30 bohaibbs.net


They build a whole city in one shot! :crazy:


----------



## binhai

8.5 bohaibbs.net


----------



## Munwon

Do you ever sleep Barbaric?


----------



## z0rg

They didn't mention the source for this render. You can see Tishman Speyer twins on the right, 2x300m, likely concept.


----------



## Pansori

Northern Lotus said:


> Are the buildings pre-leased or sold? Or is this going to be another ghost town or see through city?


I think you miss the idea of how such urban developments are done in China. Mind you, not everything is done in the same way as in your neighborhood.


----------



## Munwon

Northern Lotus said:


> Are the buildings pre-leased or sold? Or is this going to be another ghost town or see through city?


They are just building it for fun. Its going to be a HUGE paintball complex:bash:


----------



## krkseg1ops

sic! said:


> what a big construction site. thats modernisation chinese style: tearing everything down and building a new city. great


Actually, they haven't torn anything down, Tianjin has huge space for development.


----------



## Hallavaara

Northern Lotus said:


> Are the buildings pre-leased or sold? Or is this going to be another ghost town or see through city?


Most buildings have some sort of owner or achor tenant, mostly banks and other financial service businesses.

This Yujiapu area is intended for finance, there are some special incentives from the local goverment for the businesses who operate in Yujiapu. So it should make the area attractive for businesses to move in.


----------



## jutinyoung

Kenwen said:


> The guy who does the update sure deserve something for taking photos in the middle of a construction site on purpose far away from city center. And Tianjin is like omfg!!!Im sure there are over hundreds of tower being built at the same time,and after they get done hundreds of companies out of nowhere will fill in all these office,thats really a f#cking wow!!! Tianjin reminds me of Shenzhen and Dubai. And also the landscape of this area with the river curve around a penisular makes it look like dockland in London,imo.Well done Tianjin!!!I think is only matter of time that Tianjin will exceed the economic size of Beijing and Shanghai by these kind of development,WWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW


 wow! that's really kind of you to say this ,especially as a guangdongnese, we all know tianjin and shenzhen are competing to eatch other for the NO4,
and tianjin is keep trying to catch up with shenzhen and guangzhou, but seems you are very happy to see the development of this chaster and opponent，you let us know the mature and rational of guangdongese,good for you!
we are all chinese right? so of course we should have competition in economic developing, but the reason why we compete is to promot all of us, competition is good for promotion ,but don't let it hurt, or cause some dispute between us , because that's not the purpose of developing,and that should not be the reason why we compare our hometown to other place ether.

let us learn from guangdong friend!:banana:


----------



## charles54

cant wait for china to build a tower taller than Burj Khalifa


----------



## trimetileno

Munwon said:


> They are just building it for fun. Its going to be a HUGE paintball complex:bash:


:lol:


----------



## binhai

2.19 gaoloumi.com


----------



## skyridgeline

charles54 said:


> cant wait for china to build a tower taller than Burj Khalifa


I think the "Chinese" developers/investors are a bit more down to earth (think profit). :lol:


----------



## Atmosphere

^^ But a new highest building can mean lots of profit. For example out of tourism. May not be profit for the tower itself but it can be for a city.


----------



## lianli

^^
Normally this "extra profit" isn't that high.
Normal people aren't so interested in skyscrapers, like we "nerds" are. :lol:


----------



## Ewan117

And a skyscraper built in this area/district is pretty meaningless as well.

Think Shanghai and JinMao

Kuala Lumpur and Petronas

Bank of China and Hong Kong

All meaningful locations and iconic because it defines the skyline


----------



## SimFox

Ewan117 said:


> And a skyscraper built in this area/district is pretty meaningless as well.
> 
> Think Shanghai and JinMao
> 
> Kuala Lumpur and Petronas
> 
> Bank of China and Hong Kong
> 
> All meaningful locations and iconic because it defines the skyline


What a lot of Bullocks!

Especially ridiculous is mention of Jin Mao here... Yes it defines skyline... But wait what skyline









??


----------



## Igor Antunov

> specially ridiculous is mention of Jin Mao here... Yes it defines skyline... But wait what skyline


....? The shanghai Skyline.

Although the bottle opener is the one that defines shanghai at the moment. Jin Mao has been overshadowed. And bottle opener will be overshadowed by shanghai tower.


----------



## Igor Antunov

Northern Lotus said:


> Are the buildings pre-leased or sold? Or is this going to be another ghost town or see through city?


Look at the location and reconsider your question.



>


Epic!​


----------



## ZZ-II

that very tall tower on the right could easily reach 700m. is that a real project?


----------



## patrykus

Yep, it is very real alright - just not 700m a t the moment. It's Rose Rock International Finance Center. The thread is here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=745900

It probably will be 588m and here's most likely design they have chosen. But it's still in early stage so the design still may change I think.


----------



## tim1807

That's a nice design, much better than the 1 WTC look-a-like.


----------



## ZZ-II

patrykus said:


> Yep, it is very real alright - just not 700m a t the moment. It's Rose Rock International Finance Center. The thread is here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=745900
> 
> It probably will be 588m and here's most likely design they have chosen. But it's still in early stage so the design still may change I think.


Ah, this one is it . Many thx


----------



## SimFox

Igor Antunov said:


> ....? The shanghai Skyline.
> 
> Although the bottle opener is the one that defines shanghai at the moment. Jin Mao has been overshadowed. And bottle opener will be overshadowed by shanghai tower.


Sorry, picture didn't show the first time around...
What I mean is people look at the state of the area today (particularly how it typically filmed) think of it as an empty field. But give it a time - Pudong also used to be an "empty field" just 20 years ago.

Besides Tangu isn't all that empty even now. And in 10_ or so years it may have all the fame of Pudong!


----------



## HardBall

tim1807 said:


> That's a nice design, much better than the 1 WTC look-a-like.


Absolutely, very innovative and could be a signature piece for this up and coming city, instead of emulating some1 else. I'm sure it will have some breath taking feature such as a suspended observation deck or sky restaurant to crown the piece.


----------



## HardBall

CoCoMilk said:


>


Are all of the designs really that boxy?

I thought what we are looking at now are monotonous simply because many architectural flourishes have not been placed on the tower skeletons yet. But by the look of the render, most of the buildings have nearly identical modern 70'sish design, none of which really stands out. Are these final renderings, or just place holders?


----------



## Igor Antunov

HardBall said:


> Are all of the designs really that boxy?
> 
> I thought what we are looking at now are monotonous simply because many architectural flourishes have not been placed on the tower skeletons yet. But by the look of the render, most of the buildings have nearly identical modern 70'sish design, none of which really stands out. Are these final renderings, or just place holders?


Well if they're mostly glass, they won't look 70's, they will be very modern.


----------



## KillerZavatar

i can't really agree. I am pretty sure it will look amazing in a few years and not too boxy at all.


----------



## patrykus

And I say it will look awesome because it mostly *WILL BE* boxy. I hate skylines like for example moscow have where every tower is trying to be iconic landmark. The idea of landmarks is that they suppose to stand out from the crowd, and how they can do it if every tower is trying to be the icon? Most of the towers in the skyline has to look normal if we expect great results. Take the NYC: most of the towers are old boring boxes there and yet I believe it's one of the best (if not the best) skylines in the world. If all towers are "unique" and "outstanding" that only makes chaos and ruin the skyline.


----------



## hmmwv

Agreed, I like the American style dense boxy skylines, not really into a bunch of buildings with weird shapes (except ST).


----------



## binhai

4.4 bohaibbs.net


----------



## binhai

4.25 gaoloumi.com


----------



## binhai

4.25 bohaibbs.net


----------



## binhai

Yujiapu on May 7, 2011:










Yujiapu on May 5, 2012:


----------



## skyridgeline

From the executive summary report on this project ...

_The Financial District(YFD) is also expected to set up a new standard for the sustainable developement and construction of cities in Asia by adhering to the developement concept of green building and low-carbon city._

- http://eneken.ieej.or.jp/data/4277.pdf (Sept 30, 2011)


----------



## Igor Antunov

So is this the only example of a major scraper-dense district being built from scratch all at once?


----------



## oliver999

i find north china 's tall buildings are more "boxy" than south china.


----------



## Pansori

Igor Antunov said:


> So is this the only example of a major scraper-dense district being built from scratch all at once?


Zhujiang New Town in Guangzhou.


----------



## UjaiDidida

Donno y but i feel proud of this project :banana:


----------



## binhai

Igor Antunov said:


> So is this the only example of a major scraper-dense district being built from scratch all at once?


Qianhai in Shenzhen, it's actually much much bigger than Yujiapu but still at the beginning stages of construction


----------



## Genzyme

Pansori said:


> Zhujiang New Town in Guangzhou.


no, skyscrapers in Guangzhou New CBD are not built at the same time all at once. While some are already completed for years some are still years from T/O. In Tianjian it is like a real world sim-city


----------



## binhai

May 5


----------



## Ed007Toronto

Looks good.


----------



## everywhere

BarbaricManchurian said:


> May 5


What building is this on the left side? It seems that this is a convention center or something?


----------



## orange boy

Time for the Giants rising up!:cheers:


----------



## maldini

All these new buildings look very well-built and sturdy. Is it because it is situated near an earthquake zone?


----------



## FM 2258

Nice ground shots! From what I can see it looks like a very pedestrian friendly area. Are they also building a subway system for the area?


----------



## Delta1088

FM 2258 said:


> Nice ground shots! From what I can see it looks like a very pedestrian friendly area. Are they also building a subway system for the area?


yes they are, they have just refilled parts of the ground with soil after finishing the construction


----------



## ZZ-II

lowenmeister said:


> I find that last picture is quite artistic. The lone man that walks through a forest of skyscrapers.


Must be a weird feeling to walk through these unfinished towers. Especially with that weather.


----------



## spectre000

60 Minutes has a video on the RE bubble in China, near the end of the video, about 9:45 into it, they discuss a project in Tianjin. From the video they appear to be this project. Can someone confirm?

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50142079n

And take it for what it's worth, I'm not trying to troll. But I do think this is a valid bit of news to discuss on this forum.

Now I'll dive for cover. :lol:


----------



## cfredo

^^
Well, of course this is an unbelievable huge project, but judging a project's success a decade before its completion is a little bit laughable. Nevertheless this is going to be the financial center of complete northern China (more inhabitants than all the U.S.). Besides that, there is not only investment by the Chinese...companies like Rockefeller or BankofAmerica have their stakes in Yujiapu/Xiangluowan.

We had some decades ago a similar discussion about Shanghai's Lujiazui/Pudong..."Why does a dirt-poor country like China need all those skyscrapers?! They're never going to be able to fill them!". Yeah, it took several years to fill them, but now we're talking about vacancy rates way below 10%. And China is just starting to open up its financial sector...up to now it's mostly a private party of Chinese financial firms (with some exceptions like HSBC or Citi).


----------



## spectre000

Valid points cfredo. I just wonder what the economy will be in 5-10 years. Will these towers be finished by then? It looks bleak at the moment. While the Shanghai's and Tianjin may do well initially, if the other cities/ghost towns bring down the market, it could ripple to the stronger ones. 

It will be an interesting to watch it play out.


----------



## cfredo

Yeah, in such long-term projects there is of course a lot of uncertainty involved. With rapidly rising wages in China (especially at the coast) it would be way too expensive to start building it in 10 years or so. It's now or never (same applies to the infrastructure investments like the HSR).


----------



## KillerZavatar

spectre000 said:


> 60 Minutes has a video on the RE bubble in China, near the end of the video, about 9:45 into it, they discuss a project in Tianjin. From the video they appear to be this project. Can someone confirm?
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50142079n
> 
> And take it for what it's worth, I'm not trying to troll. But I do think this is a valid bit of news to discuss on this forum.
> 
> Now I'll dive for cover. :lol:


hno: bad journalism at its finest. i like how they say that china has so many "unfinished" projects :lol:


----------



## spectre000

KillerZavatar said:


> hno: bad journalism at its finest. i like how they say that china has so many "unfinished" projects :lol:


I'd hardly call it bad journalism. Certainly there is a difference between a project built, under construction, proposed, etc. But I think they're correct when they say many are unfinished. 

The question is will they be finished, and will they be financially successful for the developers and investors.


----------



## maldini

spectre000 said:


> I'd hardly call it bad journalism. Certainly there is a difference between a project built, under construction, proposed, etc. But I think they're correct when they say many are unfinished.
> 
> The question is will they be finished, and will they be financially successful for the developers and investors.


That is just bad journalism. Those projects are in progress, in the process of being finished. Of course, any project in progress are not finished yet.

"Unfinished" give people the false impression that it is halted.


----------



## titawan

very nice.!!


----------



## China Hand

cfredo said:


> Yeah, in such long-term projects there is of course a lot of uncertainty involved. With rapidly rising wages in China (especially at the coast) it would be way too expensive to start building it in 10 years or so. It's now or never (same applies to the infrastructure investments like the HSR).


And land prices. Wages rise, people bid up land, and the cost of aquiring right-of-way goes vertical.


----------



## FM 2258

Build it now while it's cheap!!! :cheers:


----------



## General Huo

It is a bad journalism for this cbs 60min. It is full of bias, exaggeration, misguiding, and of course "china is doomed and collapsing", which is absolute politically correct in western media.

OK this is the same Zhengzhou east new district that this report labeled as "ghost town"













































The real ghost towns that I've seen are some neighborhood in Detroit, in Trenton, NJ or LA. Did US media cover that like this?


----------



## cfredo

^^
Exactly!
It's also interesting how reports about the ultimate Chinese "ghost town" Ordos are becoming very rare. What's the reason? Well, it isn't a ghost town anymore...sometimes it just needs some time to fill a new district. 

A few days ago someone posted an current report about New South China Mall in Dongguan (world's largest mall, but abandoned) in the economy thread. Those reports about this mall are popping up every few months. Isn't it interesting how they always need to use that same mall for many years to demonstrate how worse the Chinese real estate bubble is? Looks like that they can't find new demonstration material. :lol:


----------



## Pansori

cfredo said:


> ^^
> Exactly!
> It's also interesting how reports about the ultimate Chinese "ghost town" Ordos are becoming very rare. What's the reason? Well, it isn't a ghost town anymore...sometimes it just needs some time to fill a new district.
> 
> A few days ago someone posted an current report about New South China Mall in Dongguan (world's largest mall, but abandoned) in the economy thread. Those reports about this mall are popping up every few months. Isn't it interesting how they always need to use that same mall for many years to demonstrate how worse the Chinese real estate bubble is? Looks like that they can't find new demonstration material. :lol:


It's an 'easy' target for Western media simply because no such large-scale developments have been taking place anywhere in the West (or even Russia) for at least 30-40 years now. China is doing rapid mass urbanization and is not building a block or two in one go but more like an entire city or a large city district. That makes perfect sense given the scale of China and its cities. 

When you're building several million sq m of residential and commercial space in one go it will stay empty for a while because it is physically impossible to fill it in an instant. Those who criticize China's 'ghost towns' simply do not understand what urban development system China is undertaking and how it works. That merely shows that they either don't know what they're talking about or do so on purpose hoping that their viewers and listeners will not understand.

I bet there were reports back in the 80's about a 'ghost town' of Shenzhen being constructed near Hong Kong? :|


----------



## Bannor

Yes, it is exaggeration at its worst. But even the chinese government argees on the fact that property prizes has gone a bit too far. So cooling down the market a bit seems fair enough when it comes to private housing. However adding public housing is a good idea to continue growing urbanization as well as keeping constructionworkers employed.

But I deffinately agree that building now while salaries are still low is the only way to do it. Binhai new area, Qianhai and Heng Sha are also new areas that will accommodate alot of office space and RnD. A sector that does not suffer from oversupply at all.


----------



## hmmwv

This shitty 60 minutes piece made the well respected show looks like something coming out of Entertainment Tonight.


----------



## Langur

Don't take it from me. Take it from economists and analysts cited here, here, here, here or here. This may not be what you want to hear, but I for one think the evidence is overwhelming and incontrovertible.


----------



## Pansori

Langur said:


> Don't take it from me, take it from economists and analysts cited here, here, here, here or here. This may not be what you want to hear, but I for one think the evidence is overwhelming and incontrovertible.


I rather take it from economists who have actual market knowledge, operational expertise and long-term experience _in_ the country, fluent language skill, hi-profile contacts within the business community and even the officialdom, geographical knowledge and are actually living there. Like this.



Shaun Rein said:


> But in this case he clearly doesn’t understand the economic system he’s talking about.


Not just him it seems. 

It's funny though that you were a staunch defender of Roubini too. Why don't you post the link to his infamous opinion on China's investment in bullet trains and transport infrastructure? He was right too wasn't he? :lol:


----------



## particlez

LOLZ Langur. It's suddenly 2003 with empty skyscrapers in Pudong. Do you really have this much free time? Don't stop though, I got rid of cable news, so this serves as current events commentary/comedy.

So what if exports have still grown, but have declined as a net percentage of GDP? You do realize the investment that you criticize is sometimes used for useful, productive investments? 



> The major lines will be fine, but what of the more obscure ones? Will they pay their way? And of course the major lines were built first as they have the strongest economic rationale. The more marginal ones will be built next, which inevitably means declining returns for every additional dollar of investment. High speed rail can operate profitably, but it has never paid for its construction. In other words it leaves a legacy of debt. Lots of HSR = lots of debt. An unsustainable addiction to fixed asset investment is the core of China's problem.


Pure Comedy. You might as well criticize every other investment/social welfare program in history. Criticize old age pensions, criticize public health and education. Imagine Hong Kong without the MTR. *BTW, contemporary hardcore economic incompetents saw it as an unnecessary, expensive, white elephant. Their words, not mine. If Milton (real estate shill) Friedman had his way, his favorite Hong Kong would have never developed subways, highways, public housing, an upgraded airport, etc. 

You'll have to wait a bit longer for diminishing returns on transport investment. Despite the rapid pace of investment, both inter and intra city public transit has demand wildly outstripping supply. Much of Shenzhen STILL isn't covered, and it has the population density and the purchasing power to use PT. Neighboring Dongguan is starting to build PT, same thing with Huizhou--and the intra city connections between these 3 neighboring municipalities are still lacking. I only mentioned 3 cities in which the demand exists, but hasn't yet been met. 

How did you arrive at those debt figures? Kinda contradicts everything published so far. Unless of course, you think the CIA itself is soft on Communists.


You really should lay off bits and pieces of newspaper and tv commentary. You'll always find at least one pundit to accommodate your preconceived notions--especially the worst conceptions of some far-away place. Wonder why the Economist has been predicting an imminent collapse of China (or Iran, or Venezuela or Brazil), yet couldn't predict an actual economic collapse in its own backyard? That, plus many of these higher profile economists are bankrolled by a small number of vested interests. It could be good for their own ROI, but may not equate as being good for society.

Go read some real economists. There's more to economics than Hedge Fund guys, political hacks, and warmed over status quo apologists who run the very small spectrum between neo-Keynesian and Chicago school. Start with the Physiocrats, move on to the Classical, the Progressives, the Marxists, etc. You do realize investment is a fourth factor of production. But then you could backhandedly acknowledge all this, and then say that it doesn't affect the crux of your argument.

As an aside, I do wonder about your domestic UK criticisms. Are you a fan of Thatcher and her various privatizations? I mean, speculators love her--I'm not so sure about everyone else.


----------



## z0rg

Langur said:


> Don't take it from me. Take it from economists and analysts cited here, here, here, here or here. This may not be what you want to hear, but I for one think the evidence is overwhelming and incontrovertible.


June 26th 1995: The Death of Hong Kong
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1995/06/26/203948/


----------



## Pansori

^^
LOL


----------



## Langur

z0rg said:


> June 26th 1995: The Death of Hong Kong
> http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1995/06/26/203948/


But Hong Kong involved a political transfer, which isn't relevent here. As a side note, some of the predictions in that article, such as Beijing's retraction of Legco's democratic credentials, or China's creeping interference with the judiciary and freedom of the press, have come to pass to some extent. Hong Kong's still much freer than China, but less free than before 1997. Hong Kong politics has been defined ever since 1997 by tensions between Beijing's appointed stooges, and the populace of HK, who want HK leaders to stand up for HK interests. That much is accurate.

However I think far more apt analogies are all those who were certain that Japan's "genius" Finance Ministry, who had engineered Japan's economic "miracle", would somehow prevent Japan's own credit bubble from bursting in the late 1980s.

Ditto the Asian Financial Crisis of 1998, or the dotcom bulls of the early 2000s who accused those who were not investing in startups of being "wimps", or, most recently, the bulls who were sure that collatoralised mortgage bonds were gold-plated AAA investments, and represented no significant threat to the banks or wider economy.

I don't recall if you were one of them, z0rg, but there were plenty of economically illiterate skyscraper-nerds on this forum who pooh-poohed any suggeston that Dubai's model of _build-it-and-they'll-come_ was unsustainable.

On the eve of every crash in history, there have always been bulls who say that rumours of a crash are greatly exaggerated, and that the party will continue. Will you never learn? :|


----------



## Langur

@Pansori and Particlez
I think Roubini is right. You bang on ad-naseum about his trivial errors on HSR details, but so what? He's one of the few economists who saw the crash in 2007, and his argument that China is malinvesting is manifestly true.

Shaun Rein tells you what you want to hear because his whole business revolves around attracting American and other foreign investors to continue pouring money into China. If he scares them off with an honest appraisal, then there's no more money for Shaun. He's not an independent source, and is widely criticised as a mouthpiece for Beijing.

Pansori, you accuse my sources of not having "actual market knowledge, operational expertise and long-term experience in the country, fluent language skill, hi-profile contacts within the business community and even the officialdom, geographical knowledge and are actually living there."

Are you serious? The articles I linked to cited economists like Charlene Chu who lives in Beijing, works for Fitch, and is considered the leading expert on Chinese debt by Goldman Sachs and the US Federal Reserve. "Unconnected"? Really?? :|

What are the chances that cited economists such as Wei Yao, Zhiwei Zhang, or Liu Xiahui aren't fluent in Chinese? :|

And Particlez disparages "hedge fund guys". You mean uber-wealthy funds that have $billions riding on their trades, who invest on behalf of the world's most sophisticated investors, and who pay huge salaries to attract and employ the world's brainiest economists and analysts? Yeah why would anyone listen to them? :|

But don't stop there. We've already heard Delta1088 dismiss the opinion of China's largest housebuilder. After all what would Wang Shi know about China's housing bubble? :|

Presumably you also dimiss the view of Wen Jiabao, China's former Premier (cited in one of my articles), who warned that China's investment-fueled economic path was unsustainable. What connections or insight would he have? :|

Presumably you guys also dismiss the views of 43 of China's senior government and academic economists, whose chief economic worries for China are "mounting government debt, burgeoning overcapacity and a swelling property bubble". :|


----------



## particlez

Langur, now you've resorted to name-dropping? Spare the list of "economists" who are working for the likes of Fitch, Goldman and the US Fed. Their job is to find numerous excuses for austerity--because they want to preserve their bond yields (you really need to look into this). Read "real" economists, preferably dead ones whose rhetoric isn't reflective of any existing vested interest. 

Nouriel Roubini's prognostications about the Shanghai-Hangzhou line were flat out wrong. He just can't admit it. If you want a more thorough understanding, read the works of Hyman Minsky--he influenced Roubini. Minsky's writings are more lucid, and they explain the propaganda purpose and consequent misuse of government debt.

Whenever people mention the need to slash government debt, red flags are raised. Even Adam Smith himself noted that no government in history has defaulted on its sovereign debt. You can always print fiat money. Nor does government debt result in hyperinflation--note how the US, Japan, UK, etc. have continually printed money and have had their government debts grow increasingly larger. You may respond with the example of Weimar Germany. Hyperinflation occurred there. But Weimar Germany was saddled with payments in French Francs and Sterling. 

Note that New Deal America printed and spent huge money on infrastructure and poverty alleviation. The bankers despised Roosevelt, yet he was the most popular president in US history. And those policies did result in a demonstrably higher living standard and higher productivity. No hyperinflation. Note that Postwar Europe underwent the same thing, and rebuilt from its ashes. No hyperinflation.


----------



## Langur

particlez said:


> Langur, now you've resorted to name-dropping? Spare the list of "economists" who are working for the likes of Fitch, Goldman and the US Fed.


They consult her to hear analysis, not propaganda. And you've conveniently failed to mention the 43x senior Chinese government and academic economists, the former Chinese premier, China's largest housebuilder. Are they all involved in a big conspiracy to trick the world, saying that China has an investment-led credit bubble when in fact it hasn't? :|


particlez said:


> Whenever people mention the need to slash government debt, red flags are raised. Even Adam Smith himself noted that no government in history has defaulted on its sovereign debt.


Well there's certainly been no shortage of sovereign defaults since...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#List_of_sovereign_debt_defaults_or_debt_restructuring


particlez said:


> Note that New Deal America printed and spent huge money on infrastructure and poverty alleviation. The bankers despised Roosevelt, yet he was the most popular president in US history. And those policies did result in a demonstrably higher living standard and higher productivity. No hyperinflation. Note that Postwar Europe underwent the same thing, and rebuilt from its ashes. No hyperinflation.


Neither I, nor the economists and analysts I've cited, have mentioned hyperinflation as the issue at stake here.


----------



## particlez

^That's a list of defaults for other currencies/gold. Unless you kill the printing press, you're still able to print and expand the money supply.

*Fiat currencies are not the same.* Thus a bunch of countries can run up debts denominated in their own fiat currencies, and still just print more money. Unfair? Maybe to you, but it's how things have worked for a long time. Hyman Minsky > compensated "consultant" economists.

And really, DON'T listen to the likes of Goldman/Fitch/US Fed shills. You've just listed a triumvirate of austerity boosters. They personally stand to benefit from the most regressive practices.


----------



## FM 2258

z0rg said:


> June 26th 1995: The Death of Hong Kong
> http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1995/06/26/203948/





> In fact, the naked truth about Hong Kong's future can be summed up in two words: It's over.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :cheers:


----------



## binhai

XLW<<-->>YJP


----------



## binhai

230m T/O

Tianjin's 22nd completed or T/O 200m+ building, that number has been rising quite fast recently


----------



## phoenixboi08

My favorite part of this is the parks!
(I can't help it, I like public spaces) 
I'm really interested to see this over the next few years.


----------



## Cho oyo

Pansori said:


> I rather take it from economists who have actual market knowledge, operational expertise and long-term experience _in_ the country, fluent language skill, hi-profile contacts within the business community and even the officialdom, geographical knowledge and are actually living there. Like this.
> 
> 
> Not just him it seems.
> 
> It's funny though that you were a staunch defender of Roubini too. Why don't you post the link to his infamous opinion on China's investment in bullet trains and transport infrastructure? He was right too wasn't he? :lol:


In fact China is not a country,it is *two* county:Capitalism South China and Communism North China(except Beijing),South China 's economy like south Korea and North China very like North Korea:There are all national owned company and even no large private company.N-China's people are very poor even though it's GDP not bad.Tianjin's salary only No.30 in China,much lower than ever SE China city,it's people can't rent high level office!

You can't use your own experience in S-China city to see N-China city like Tianjin.In fact all Xiangluowan/Yujiapu 's project are stoped or almost stop,no one want buy it.Do you find all photos about these 2 areas are similar to 1 year before? It will still the same after 10 years!


----------



## Delta1088

Cho oyo said:


> In fact China is not a country,it is *two* county:Capitalism South China and Communism North China(except Beijing),South China 's economy like south Korea and North China very like North Korea:There are all national owned company and even no large private company.N-China's people are very poor even though it's GDP not bad.Tianjin's salary only No.30 in China,much lower than ever SE China city,it's people can't rent high level office!
> 
> You can't use your own experience in S-China city to see N-China city like Tianjin.In fact all Xiangluowan/Yujiapu 's project are stoped or almost stop,no one want buy it.Do you find all photos about these 2 areas are similar to 1 year before? It will still the same after 10 years!


omg southerners are attacking the whole of north of China and trying to bring up intra-country fights. I do not want to attack that city of yours (cause I know where you come from) but I do feel that you should take back your words on the comments about North China. Cities like Dalian Shenyang and INCLUDING Tianjin certainly cant match shenzhen but they are at least a tier better than many of the Southern cities, all way round.


----------



## phoenixboi08

The very simplistic way to think of China's economy, is as a sponge.

What people don't take into account (about any economy, really) is that growth is more about expectations than reality. These developments are going up because of the expectation that there will be plenty of future demand to go around. In other words, Tianjin will always be in Beijing's shadow, but as time goes on (especially as we're seeing with the HSR network), it's going to become attractive for companies to locate specific non-vital offices and operations in cities like Tianjin rather than Beijing....

When we talk about "bubbles" in China, it's rather confusing. Bubble in what? You can't make the case that there's a bubble in real estate; though you certainly can say that there is a bubble in residential developments and possibly one in certain commercial ones. However, at this point in time, the absolute BEST return on your investment is in office developments.

Anyways, that is all to say, what China looks like now, is not going to be the case 50 years from now. These large cities like Beijing and Shanghai are going to condense (e.g. when incomes finally move at par with economic growth, we will see people do one of two things 1) relocate further into the inner areas of cities or 2) relocate to smaller cities. In the future, for example, Shanghai will be a very important player in the Yangzte River Delta, but cities like Suzhou, Wuxi, Hangzhou, Nanjing, et. al will also be far more important than they are now.

We won't be seeing the development styles in which the cities of Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, etc are "everything." In other words, development will spread more laterally than vertically. Developments like this in Tianjin are a very good demonstration of that reality. 

This is probably one of the best kinds of investments one could make in China at the moment...


----------



## maldini

Cho oyo said:


> In fact China is not a country,it is *two* county:Capitalism South China and Communism North China(except Beijing),South China 's economy like south Korea and North China very like North Korea:There are all national owned company and even no large private company.N-China's people are very poor even though it's GDP not bad.Tianjin's salary only No.30 in China,much lower than ever SE China city,it's people can't rent high level office!
> 
> You can't use your own experience in S-China city to see N-China city like Tianjin.In fact all Xiangluowan/Yujiapu 's project are stoped or almost stop,no one want buy it.Do you find all photos about these 2 areas are similar to 1 year before? It will still the same after 10 years!


That's nonsense, it is stupid to compare north China with North Korea. All the state own enterprise in north China have way more cash than those in North Korea as north China is way more developed. These state owned enterprises certainly have enough cash to buy or rent these new buildings in Tianjin.


----------



## city of the future

All these buildings look stalled. No cladding at all and no workers, whats the situation here?


----------



## phoenixboi08

This is a vicious cycle, I tell ya'...


----------



## binhai




----------



## spectre000

BarbaricManchurian said:


> What the hell is this gibberish? The pictures speak for themselves.


True.

Posted *12/22/13*.









Posted *4/9/14*.


----------



## Redzio

This project isn't on hold. It's just very slow....hno:


----------



## ThatOneGuy

Does anybody know what is that triangle looking structure in the distance of the last photo?


----------



## Amastroi2017

ThatOneGuy said:


> Does anybody know what is that triangle looking structure in the distance of the last photo?


I'm not sure the name of it but I know it is right across the street from Chow Tai Fook Tianjin.

The building appears to me to be some sort of convention center, though I searched for Tianjin Binhai Convention Center and a different, larger building came up.


----------



## chinesehorse

spectre000 said:


> True.
> Posted *4/9/14*.


Hey, it's the train station to the right! I love the SOM designed HSR station!


----------



## binhai




----------



## binhai




----------



## ThatOneGuy

I like the clad of the building two photos up^^


----------



## binhai




----------



## binhai




----------



## Spocket

This is why I love living in China.


----------



## Frockling

Spocket said:


> This is why I love living in China.


The pollution? Oh oh let me guess, your internet freedom? That's it, I hit the nail on the head this time


----------



## ThatOneGuy

Please, every country has its negatives.


----------



## :jax:

Internet censorship and air quality aren't on topic and irrelevant here. The ever-recurrent theme of ghost cities is (as long as applied to Binhai), probably to the frustration of several. 

Being in the place on the planet with the fastest and greatest change in history is cool, even given the disadvantages (though I would would be more inclined towards cool tempered with caution).


----------



## Herzarsen

:jax: said:


> Internet censorship and air quality aren't on topic and irrelevant here. The ever-recurrent theme of ghost cities is (as long as applied to Binhai), probably to the frustration of several.
> 
> Being in the place on the planet with the fastest and greatest change in history is cool, even given the disadvantages (though I would would be more inclined towards cool tempered with caution).


Recently in Shanghai I spoke with a Czech Architect who has lived in China for the past 20 years. He showed me a map of how much China needs to build over the the next decades because it has so many people moving into cities. Its staggering. I wish I could have an image to show you.

Bottom line is Ghost Cities are nothing to worry about:

And I throw in two cents:

a) A lot of these huge projects are planned by government, including this one, after international competition that brings in experts from urban planning to architecture. Demand will be there and all it takes incentives to bring companies into these areas.

b) China builds everything in once on speculative terms, which is rare in the west, where everything is calculated for demand ahead of time and built build by building. That is why this piece of Tianjin is one complete construction site. And why other parts of China once finished look like a ghost town before people move in.

Although there may be few a few cases where a lower tier city builds an area that might not be filled up. Most including this one will be. It just takes a few years after project is completed. 

China is definitely a great place to live and watch this growth! :cheers:


----------



## :jax:

Oh, I didn't want to revive the ghost city ghosts. I think all the good arguments on all sides have been recycled 4-5 times already, and the poor arguments several times that again. Unless/until somebody comes up with new information or numbers, I suggest we all just lean back and enjoy the show. Whatever the outcome, it is a good one.


----------



## Pansori

:jax: said:


> Internet censorship and air quality aren't on topic and irrelevant here. The ever-recurrent theme of ghost cities is (as long as applied to Binhai), probably to the frustration of several.
> 
> Being in the place on the planet with the fastest and greatest change in history is cool, even given the disadvantages (though I would would be more inclined towards cool tempered with caution).


Precisely. This is one reason I want to come here during my holidays. See the urban transformation unprecedented in history be it new buildings, city districts, new cities altogether or new transport projects. Even if there will be 'ghost' projects (Binhai is probably not one of them) we must keep in mind the amount of development going on. There will be errors and glitches when you build on such a scale. However we must see the context. The relative amount of unsuccessful projects is insignificant in the context of China.


----------



## jaysonn341

At least there is work being done on the HSR station. If that isn't built, I doubt anyone would come to this area from Beijing.


----------



## Augustão d2

I could not help but notice how the building grew back there. It's what made ​​the most progress.


----------



## FM 2258

Curious, has anyone moved in yet? How's the HSR station?


----------



## binhai

Powerlong Center mall has opened. The HSR station is almost done and will be completed this year. Cladding is wrapping up on most towers. I hope most towers open this year but progress has been slow.


----------



## Wigz

I was reading some articles about this project, and it looks like people aren't very optimistic about the future of this development. What will most likely happen in ten years when the Chinese market bubble pops? Will most of this be complete by then or will it be similar to Dubai and a lot of buildings won't rise? Sorry, I'm sure this has been discussed a lot already in this thread.


----------



## binhai

China will be the world's biggest economy by a large margin within the next few decades. An economy that size will need many world-class CBDs. This is by far the most important CBD being developed in north China, one that is very large, well-designed, and purpose-built. China's growth and success would have to falter badly in order for this project to fail long-term. 

Right now infrastructure for the zone (roads, parks, underground malls, HSR station, etc) is still largely under construction, so most of the buildings are left unfinished until that is completed.


----------



## casb68

Wow...this BD will be amazing when finished.


----------



## Pansori

My only concern about this development is commuter rail/metro services which connect the area with Tianjin and other nearby areas. That kind of location needs a truly comprehensive transport system. I mean something like what is planned for Shenzhen Qianhai Bay CBD with numerous metro lines and stations.


----------



## ArtZ

Frockling said:


> The pollution? Oh oh let me guess, your internet freedom? That's it, I hit the nail on the head this time


No political comments, pls. BTW, have you ever visited China? I know some people who live there and they are quite happy with that. And not everywhere in China the air is as polluted as in LA...


----------



## Julito-dubai

from gaoloumi

http://www.gaoloumi.com/viewthread.php?tid=13028&extra=&page=23

The Yujiapu Railway Station is getting ready...


----------



## Julito-dubai

This guy has posted a lot new images, but I am not on weibo...

http://www.weibo.com/jiaoyongpu#_rnd1430128326486


----------



## Hudson11

has there been any news about the supertall recently? if not then I don't see why this thread should be in this section. Or has phase II construction commenced?


----------



## AreGee

careful, the mod who created this thread will ban you if you disagree with him.

from WUHAN | Greenland Center | 636m | 2086ft | 125 fl | U/C



BarbaricManchurian said:


> Any future comments claiming that the project is on hold *will be construed as trolling.*


----------



## binhai

LOL BANNED


----------



## binhai

Hudson11 said:


> has there been any news about the supertall recently? if not then I don't see why this thread should be in this section. Or has phase II construction commenced?


There is a 299.45m and a 289.9m actively U/C. Of course the idea was to provide a compilation thread for one of the biggest high-rise CBDs U/C anywhere. But there is obvious reluctance to commit to building more towers including supertalls for now.


----------



## kunming tiger

BarbaricManchurian said:


> Powerlong Center mall has opened. The HSR station is almost done and will be completed this year. Cladding is wrapping up on most towers. I hope most towers open this year but progress has been slow.


 HSR will make a huge difference

Below is a link for the Binhai New Area, worth checking out.

http://doc.mbalib.com/view/87f0d3441aec64f89490a2cf19e2bc69.html


----------



## KillerZavatar

BarbaricManchurian said:


> There is a 299.45m and a 289.9m actively U/C. Of course the idea was to provide a compilation thread for one of the biggest high-rise CBDs U/C anywhere. But there is obvious reluctance to commit to building more towers including supertalls for now.


with R&F, the centerpiece of xiangluowan having really slow construction phases. sino-steel being purposefully on hold to continue after more towers in the area are complete and some projects like glorious oriental twins being topped out but uncladded for over a year already, i certainly hope they do not start more tall towers, but instead kick some asses on slow ones for them to finish first :lol: On the otherside of the river in Yujiapo it's the same, powerlong might be on hold or progressing extremely slow and that so close before topping out. Yinglan IFC only grew like 1 or two floors in the last 3 months as well. I grow rather worried, not that it will all turn on hold, but that this will just take ages to get done. starting everything at once might have been as slow as if it started in smaller phases. :bash: After all, CTF is not far away, but outside this two-CBD cluster and is doing really well.

i certainly hope once some more of the smaller towers are done, these projects will speed up again. It also seems like that most projects here are on hold for some time and U/C a bit and then on hold again. None of these projects is on hold for good it seems. well except sino steel, which i still believe is intended to rise in a later phase because surrounding towers were slower than expected.


----------



## Amastroi2017

We need to remember that both Xianglouwan and Yujiapu were just getting started as recently as 2010/2011. We should continue to be patient. I have no doubt that both districts will be completed by 2020, maybe closer to 2025. Then we can finally no longer have to see outside media cast Yujiapu as a poster CBD for ghost cities in China.


----------



## Pansori

Transport links are the key. What's the situation with the railway station? Local commuter lines?


----------



## Severiano

AreGee said:


> careful, the mod who created this thread will ban you if you disagree with him.
> 
> from WUHAN | Greenland Center | 636m | 2086ft | 125 fl | U/C





BarbaricManchurian said:


> LOL BANNED


Please don't ban me, but seriously? If someone has a difference of opinion they just get banned due to the whims of the moderator. I could see this in a Chinese forum, but this is an international forum. Sure there are trolls, but people should be able to say negative things about a project to a degree. 

I might be a little negative about this project and the Zun in Beijing, but that is my personal opinion. I think a lot of other projects in China are good and I take pics and contribute. To just ban someone because you don't like what they say is well.....Barbaric.


----------



## binhai

I don't have banning powers. That was a re-registered troll. If you can actually read before spouting off, you can see that I never threatened to ban anyone at any point. I like a lot of your posts and the unique viewpoint you bring to this forum. You need to simmer down.


----------



## jaysonn341

Found this:

http://map.qq.com/#pano=10131039140919114909300&heading=2&pitch=2&zoom=1

Street view of this whole place!


----------



## jaysonn341

This place doesn't look to far from CTF, which means it being in the "middle of nowhere" is highly exaggerated. 
Quite certain the existing city will expand south to incorporate this new CBD. 
Most likely they are waiting for financial reform to kick start this place.


----------



## ryongsong

spectre000 said:


> I'll agree it takes time. Shanghai's Lujiazui district comes to mind.
> 
> But this area is years behind schedule. It's just very disappointing. It doesn't seem well thought out.


It's not well thought out in terms of how to stimulate the demand needed to fill the office space, but it seems very well thought out in terms of the planning. There's absolutely massive investment in the transport infrastructure, and quite a bit in public space and the arts. The question is how they are going to get tenants to fill the buildings in this location. It's basically planned as the CBD of a huge urban area, but without the huge urban area around it to support it.


----------



## spectre000

jaysonn341 said:


> This place doesn't look to far from CTF, which means it being in the "middle of nowhere" is highly exaggerated.
> Quite certain the existing city will expand south to incorporate this new CBD.
> Most likely they are waiting for financial reform to kick start this place.



Is it exaggerated? Seems like it. If it was desirable it would be full, right? It's not though. It's incomplete. It's over promised and undelivered. 

They decided to build 20 + office buildings in an unattractive area on pure speculation. It hasn't worked out. It might in 5-10 years. But it isn't 2020 or 2025. It's 2015. They're empty. They're behind schedule. The demand isn't there. It might be in another 5+ years. But right now, this project is a failure. 

I'm not trying to be a troll or cynic. But I just want the boosters and fanboys to admit this is a huge failure at the moment. It might work out like Lujiaziu. But it may not.


----------



## jaysonn341

^^ Well with that attitude, we all might as well just give up and go home. We all agree and admit it is far from being a bustling urban centre we all want to see. However if this forum has taught me anything about projects in China, it is that we know nothing about how things work there. We all gave up on that Zhengzhou new district 3 years ago, CBS news knows all about that one. Now look at it. 
I too was skeptical about this entire area, but if a company like CTF is building a 500m tower there, they must know something we don't. Until I start seeing nature taking over this CBD, I wouldn't write it off just yet.


----------



## :jax:

The area is not unattractive, geographically it is in an excellent location. Eventually it will be filled and active. It is a question of when rather than if, but when could still be some time away.


----------



## KøbenhavnK

^^

I guess almost anything looks attractive to someone from Södertälje :lol:


(Sorry. I love Stockholm but I couldn't help myself).


Anyway I think it looks good as well. I wonder why it looks as if the green area on the roof isn't recreational.


----------



## Pansori

spectre000 said:


> Is it exaggerated? Seems like it. If it was desirable it would be full, right? It's not though. It's incomplete. It's over promised and undelivered.
> 
> They decided to build 20 + office buildings in an unattractive area on pure speculation. It hasn't worked out. It might in 5-10 years. But it isn't 2020 or 2025. It's 2015. They're empty. They're behind schedule. The demand isn't there. It might be in another 5+ years. But right now, this project is a failure.
> 
> I'm not trying to be a troll or cynic. But I just want the boosters and fanboys to admit this is a huge failure at the moment. It might work out like Lujiaziu. But it may not.


How on earth something like this should work before even the transport network is complete? You seem to talk about it as if it was an ordinary housing project in the suburbs of some third rate American city. This is a mega-project. Millions of square meters of space *in one go*. Millions. An entire city. How on earth do you imagine this amount of space be occupied in an instant? Do you realize how absurd your statements are?

Did you follow the development of Futian CBD? Zhujiang New Town CBD? Shenzhen Bay area development? New area developments in Nanning? Any other large-scale urban development in China? According to your logic pretty much all of China (starting with Shenzhen in the 80's which was the pioneer of this kind of urbanization) is nothing but a 'ghost town' because it's building lots of buildings in one go which are not occupied the second they are complete.


----------



## spectre000

Then why didn't they build the transportation network first? Why build 20+ skyscrapers all at once if you can't fill them? I just think a slower, more organic growth is wiser. That's all.


----------



## Pansori

spectre000 said:


> Then why didn't they build the transportation network first? Why build 20+ skyscrapers all at once if you can't fill them? I just think a slower, more organic growth is wiser. That's all.


Street/expressway network is built first. Then buildings. Then rail public transport. This is how it's typically done in mega-projects. I'm not sure why but this was the case in London Canary Wharf, Shenzhen Futian, Guangzhou Zhujiang New Town and now Tianjin Binhai CBDs. It will take another few years before we'll see real activity.

Just as it was with Zhujiang New Town. How did it look in 2010? How does it look today in terms of activity? I visited the place in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015. The difference is baffling. Was it a 'ghost town' in 2010? As much as Yujiapu is today perhaps. 

How is Yujiapui different? Big projects are not inhabited/occupied in an instant. It takes years. For obvious reasons.

The reason why we're even having this 'ghost town' talk is simply because the 'critics' are not familiar with the urbanization ideology that is employed in China (anyone remember Le Corbusier? That's him) and base their perception on a completely different ideology that they're used to seeing in their home countries. The problem is that such urban development practices have never been used in US, Europe or in fact anywhere else in the world bar Singapore, The USSR and a few other places. It looks completely alien and incomprehensible for your typical Western observer who isn't familiar with this kind of urbanization. Which is why those who are lacking understanding and knowledge simply opt for easy explanations such as 'ghost town'. It's not a ghost town. It's a big project that takes years to build and get occupied. Just like any other big project that we have seen in China or elsewhere. At the moment it's not much more than a massive construction site.


----------



## Shanghainese

I like the way of china Urbanisation but i don´t like every project. 

China doesn´t have a free economy. Also the west doesn´t have a free economy. In China and all around the world, it is a Fiat-Money-System. Read about the Austrian School of Economics what it means: Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich August von Hayek, Carl Menger, Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk, Fritz Machlup, Murray Newton Rothbard an so on. The Centralbanking System with debt manipulation is a socialism planning economy who destroys the market price system. it doesn´t work. It can not work. NEVER, NEVER ! But this is the System of China, USA, Europe etc.

But I like the chinese way of skyscrapercitys. Yes, i do. And i love Shanghai. But China should more open the market system, more then the West.

www.mises.org


----------



## ThatOneGuy

spectre000 said:


> I'm not trying to be a troll or cynic. But I just want the boosters and fanboys to admit this is a huge failure at the moment. It might work out like Lujiaziu. But it may not.


The Empire State Building and the WTC took years to fill up. Were they failures too?


----------



## jaysonn341

^^ He's trying to say its a failure "at this very moment". Well no sh*t, its not finished. It hasn't even opened for business.


----------



## spectre000

The HSR line opened up in September did it not? I've read a couple buildings are finished, including a mall, which does see a small amount of traffic. 

And yes the WTC and Empire State were failures initially. That they turned out to be successes later doesn't change that fact.

A project can be both success and failure. Right now this is in the "failure" phase.


----------



## saiho

spectre000 said:


> A project can be both success and failure. Right now this is in the "failure" phase.


That's a pretty pedantic argument. You can not argue that at this instantaneous point in time it's a failure. Failed projects are a culmination of underutilization over a long period of time. At this point, no one can say for sure that it is a failure or a success so just sit back and enjoy the show.


----------



## spectre000

Ok so we're all agreed then, we hold back any judgement for at least another 25 years... Lol. 

My snarkiness aside, I can see the area being quite active and vibrant in another 5-10 years. But construction will need to pick up considerably.


----------



## Munwon

Kutsuit said:


> It's still way too early to call it a "ghost city". People used to say the same thing about New Ordos (Kangbashi New Area), which had a population of only 30,000 people a few years ago. Nowadays, Kangbashi New Area has a population of 100,000 people.
> 
> The point is, it's only a matter of time before these so-called "ghost cities" get filled up with people.


That's some interesting info! I was attempting to count all the 200m+ skyscrapers in China city by city I only got to Changsha, Nanchang, Xiamen and Fuzhou and got 60 skyscrapers UC or complete. China is truly a world apart!


----------



## binhai

This project is at most 2 years behind schedule. It's in a wealthy, densely populated coastal region of China with no other comparable developments within 100km. The chance of long-term failure is essentially zero.


----------



## Tupac96

Just wanna ask the people who know more than me about this district, are these buildings completed:

- Yujiapu Business District 1-10
- Yujiapu Bohai Bank Tower

and I'm not sure if this building is part of the district..

- Tianjin Rural Commercial Building

Please it would be good to get a response images are a bonus !


----------



## :jax:

Pansori said:


> The reason why we're even having this 'ghost town' talk is simply because the 'critics' are not familiar with the urbanization ideology that is employed in China (anyone remember Le Corbusier? That's him) and base their perception on a completely different ideology that they're used to seeing in their home countries. The problem is that such urban development practices have never been used in US, Europe or in fact anywhere else in the world


If "never" means "not lately" this is true, otherwise not. China is not the first country to do large-scale urbanisation, neither will it be the last. The scale is different and unprecedented, just like it was with the US, Britain and other precedents. 

Almost every country and most cities that has gone through the phase of expansion, over-expansion, and crash. Some have done it more than once. It you go to a city you might realise that there are virtually no buildings to be found from a certain period. The city might have gone through a bad patch and people were leaving it, but often it is the time after a particularly expansive period, and a local depression that can last for decades.

The most spectacular skyscrapers have a tendency to come on the market just before or just after a crash. They are planned and constructed during the time of greatest optimism, and by the time they are finished that optimism has evaporated. 

"This time is different" isn't. The law of gravity applies to China too. That doesn't mean that the criticism is always well-founded. In a crowd there will be professional pessimists just like professional optimists. When the crisis does come, he or he can say "I told you so" and everyone can bow to his wisdom and foresight.

There are hundreds of millions Chinese who haven't moved to the cities yet, the infrastructure is often deficient. Undoubtably there is a need. But "if we build it they will come" is a high-risk strategy, and can at the least be sub-optimal. However, unless placed in a in-hindsight-ridiculous location, or of poor quality, or too expensive to maintain, the building or infrastructure will eventually be used.


----------



## totaleclipse1985

Does "Jing-Jin-Ji" ring any bell here? This area of Tianjin will be one of the main CBDs of the entire Bohai Economic Rim. Additionally Tianjin is growing at the highest rate of any major city in the entirety of northern China (population and GPD wise). There is virtually zero chance for a long-term failure of this project. And even if it would fill up more slowly than expected there are always some huge state-controlled enterprises that could be relocated there by central planning, thereby making the whole area more attractive. Some people seem to forget that this is not some ambitious governor pipe dream project in inner Mongolia^^


----------



## Northern Lotus

Impressive landscaping and green spaces along the river.


----------



## CrystalPhoenix

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> ^^
> 
> Not entirely finished yet, you can't expect it to be full from day one.


How about across the river? Right side?


----------



## Severiano

^^ People go to bed early in Tianjin.


----------



## Renegade_Bison

CrystalPhoenix said:


> How about across the river? Right side?
> 
> The right side of the river in this photo is tanggu which is extremely busy. I worked there until last October. It used to take 45 minutes to get from central tanggu (not that far from the river) back to second avenue in TEDA during rush hour because the traffic barely moves.
> 
> Tanggu is a historic area, famed for its sea food and local dialect. I don't know the population, but many hundreds of thousands of people live there as a bare minimum and apart from the expanding suburbs under construction, it is absolutely full to the brim with people.
> 
> It's very easy to see a photo of somewhere on the other side of the world and get an impression from it, but the reality is often very far removed from the perception.
> 
> As for yujiapu, I was there yesterday to go to the global go mall. Progress is slow/on hold for some of the buildings whilst others are flying up. It's certainly not a ghost town, it's simply incomplete. The shopping mall was absolutely rammed full of people yesterday and no parking spaces available.
> 
> For those worried about this, Yujiapu is not a ghost town and is getting more not less busy.
> 
> It will be a handful of years until it starts to resemble being as busy as older areas like tanggu though


----------



## Renegade_Bison

Was there last week and will be back tomorrow.

A small but steady stream of workers busy around lots of the various sites

Build build build!


----------



## Zaz965

I am afraid if this cbd could be ghost...I hope not


----------



## Renegade_Bison

This point keeps being brought up

As someone who lives 5 minutes away by car I can confirm it is not a ghost town. Most of the buildings are not finished yet. Many buildings which are finished and open appear to have people working there and the area itself gets busier each month

It will be years until the whole area is entirely finished and occupied but the trend is moving in that direction slowly but surely

I was there yesterday and was able to confirm that some small external work was going on with the twin towers. I'm not architect (town planner by education) so I couldn't tell specifically what they were doing, but they appeared to be installing some white piping on the outside frame of the building. There were at least 2 teams of people working on this on one of the towers, whilst I didn't manage to see people working on the other - but the other tower already appeared to have these pipes installed

Needless to say thankful for seeing some progress


----------



## Arseny

November 2016


----------



## kunming tiger

Renegade_Bison said:


> This point keeps being brought up
> 
> As someone who lives 5 minutes away by car I can confirm it is not a ghost town. Most of the buildings are not finished yet. Many buildings which are finished and open appear to have people working there and the area itself gets busier each month
> 
> It will be years until the whole area is entirely finished and occupied but the trend is moving in that direction slowly but surely
> 
> I was there yesterday and was able to confirm that some small external work was going on with the twin towers. I'm not architect (town planner by education) so I couldn't tell specifically what they were doing, but they appeared to be installing some white piping on the outside frame of the building. There were at least 2 teams of people working on this on one of the towers, whilst I didn't manage to see people working on the other - but the other tower already appeared to have these pipes installed
> 
> Needless to say thankful for seeing some progress


The point keeps getting bought up because most people on this thread have never to Tianjin maybe not China so cannot speak from first hand experience
Their views and beliefs about the outside world are shaped by the media. The media can paint any picture they want to, this is only an issue when you use reality to challenge perception.


----------



## Renegade_Bison

Yeah I get that, but the point has already been addressed in the thread. I even put a comment about it and the next comment replying said they're worried it will be a ghost town

We can all look at a couple of photos of a place on the other side of the world and reach these judgements but when people who literally live there are explaining its not actually quite true it's worth them paying attention!


----------



## kunming tiger

Most people resent having their own ignorance pointed out to them.


----------



## Severiano

kunming tiger said:


> The point keeps getting bought up because most people on this thread have never to Tianjin maybe not China so cannot speak from first hand experience
> Their views and beliefs about the outside world are shaped by the media. The media can paint any picture they want to, this is only an issue when you use reality to challenge perception.


Been there, I can attest it is ghostlike. They need to do what Zhengzhou did to their ghost town and force companies to move into it. Now Zhengzhou CBD is only a ghost town on the weekends.


----------



## binhai

Definitely not a success so far compared to expectations. It's not completely abandoned but that's a very low bar to pass.


----------



## Renegade_Bison

It would've been naive of anyone to think that tianjin was going to open a massive commercial district like this over the space of a few years and immediately fill it and have it bustling. They will surely have hoped for better (who doesn't?) but no one serious about property could have seriously expected this to be flourishing in such a short time. 

The area has gotten progressively busier but most of the buildings still aren't entirely finished. 

It will happen.


----------



## binhai

Yes, I'm sure it will be fine. Plans might have been too ambitious for 2010 but East Asia is getting there at some point inevitably.


----------



## the spliff fairy

Just remember, you're dealing with a post-truth audience and society here. It doesn't matter what the facts are, only what people complicitly want them to be.


----------



## oscillation

by flyhigher


----------



## oscillation

by 万里台风 *Typhoon Miles*


----------



## oscillation

by DAGANG


----------



## oscillation

by DAGANG


----------



## MICHAELG3000

January 2019 satellite imagery of the entire Yujiapu Business District - if anyone wants a closeup view of a particular part of it send me a message


----------



## Severiano

Hey, at least there's no traffic!


----------



## Sorensen

A ghost build on borrowed money.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/10/business/china-economy-debt-tianjin.html


----------



## :jax:

There is politics as well as economics. With Xi the Bohai Economic Rim was replaced with JingJinJi. Now, Beijing (Jing) and Tianjin (Jin) are core in both, but JingJinJi has a more inland emphasis. Dalian is another loser of shifting political winds. Should those shift once more, Xiong'an probably would not have any bright future. 

That said, while there is reasonable doubt for how much sense Binhai will make commercially, and whether there will be a good return on investment, it makes sense geographically. It will fill up eventually.


----------



## Augustão d2

A photo in the report shows the completed twin buildings


----------



## Sorensen

:jax: said:


> There is politics as well as economics. With Xi the Bohai Economic Rim was replaced with JingJinJi. Now, Beijing (Jing) and Tianjin (Jin) are core in both, but JingJinJi has a more inland emphasis. Dalian is another loser of shifting political winds. Should those shift once more, Xiong'an probably would not have any bright future.
> 
> That said, while there is reasonable doubt for how much sense Binhai will make commercially, and whether there will be a good return on investment, it makes sense geographically. It will fill up eventually.


That is interesting. What is the last "Ji" in JingJinJi?


----------



## binhai

Hebei.


----------



## teddybear

If it's just Yujiapu Business District I think it's not bad. But there are still lots of empty land between Yujiapu and the Tianjin City itself which is further inland, and there are lots of empty plots of land around as well.


----------



## A Chicagoan

*May 29, 2021:*








滨海新区 by 李博士 on 500px.com


----------



## germanicboy

Nice combination of colors!


----------



## Lincolnlover2005

Where’s the supertall?


----------



## Munwon

^ tallest is 299m. This is slowly getting there. I see residential towers going up and a subway line UC.


----------



## trustevil

Nice combination of boxes is what I see haha


----------



## little universe

by 程境 on 500px



​


----------



## A Chicagoan

*October 9 by 城市基因 on Gaoloumi:*


----------



## Zaz965

aerial view, it is a bit outdated
















TIANJIN | Yujiapu Business District | U/C


This is a huge project comprising many parts. Lets review what is and isn't on hold, for ACCURACY's sake. The phase 1 includes the "9+3" initial group of buildings which include 9 towers to the south, a park in the middle, and 3 buildings to the north (2 towers and a convention center/hotel)...




www.skyscrapercity.com


----------



## A Chicagoan

Seems like this district isn't empty after all ... look at all those people on the streets!

*April 30:*








于家堡城市街道上的人们 by 侯鑫鹏 on 500px.com


----------



## Zaz965

@A Chicagoan, thanks for posting this photo, you relieved my nightmare that this district would be another empty city  

@little universe, @KillerZavatar, @Khale_Xi , @gao7, @saiho, take a look. this district has already attracted some tenants


----------



## Earl P.

Zaz965 said:


> @A Chicagoan, thanks for posting this photo, you relieved my nightmare that this district would be another empty city
> 
> @little universe, @KillerZavatar, @Khale_Xi , @gao7, @saiho, take a look. this district has already attracted some tenants



That's like 20 people in a place with more office and retail than Manhattan. You'd think they are in a Shanghai style lockdown for hoax.


----------



## A Chicagoan

于家堡金融中心 by 摄影师暗木 on 500px.com


----------

