# PORTLAND | Public Transport



## greg_christine (Jan 25, 2004)

It's too bad that with the low-floor light rail trains there is no way to string low-floor sections together to make a longer train. The wheels under the central low-floor segment are not powered. Some of the European low-floor street cars have multiple low-floor segments strung together; however, they are designed for lower speeds. The solution used in Portland will provide more room for passengers by eliminating half the cabs; however, it won't be possible to walk between cars.

Dallas lengthened some high-floor trains by adding middle low-floor segments that bridge between the high-floor segments. This type of arrangement could be used to string segments together to make a much longer train; however, there would be high-floor segments in way of each of the bogies.










For more information on the Dallas system, see the following link:

http://world.nycsubway.org/us/dallas/dallas-dart.html


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## dougall5505 (Sep 1, 2006)

*Portland Oregon Aerial tram*

I'm not sure how many of you are aware of the portland tram so let me tell you about it. It is tram that connects the OHSU (oregon health and science university upper campus to the growing lower campus at the south waterfront. It is a catlyst to the growing south waterfront neighborhood that has grown from unused industrial land to a highrise residential area with towers as high as 325 feet. Despite a rising price tag that has gone up from around 30 million to 57 mil it looks like portland is getting a well-deserved icon in the mold of the space needle of seattle, or the golden-gate bridge in san franscico.
rout:








upper station








central tower








lower station:








future expansion includes a pedestrian bridge over I-5








progress photos (i tried to give everyone credit for their photos if you want credit pm me all the pictures were taken by me unless otherwise noted)
first part of intermediate tower installed








second part
































how it looks now








lower station
crow's








pdxstreetcar's








the streetcar is going right between the OHSU building and the lower station crow's








upper station
pdxstreetcar's








pdxstreetcar's
























two river's
















tram cars
























video(pdxman's): http://s128.photobucket.com/albums/p...t=MOV00654.flv
cool pictures i found on flickr
pic of tower lit up at night (not mine)








jarsehgal's

















ae's

















JandK's
















you know its cool if it has a myspace: www.myspace.com/pdxtram
sowa proximity to downtown:








for more on the tram go to the thread in the northwest forum: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=82240
for more on the south waterfront go to: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=90344
or: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=81718


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## kub86 (Aug 13, 2004)

Is this more of a tourist thing (like seattle monorail?) or is this supposed to be a real transport system? I rode the one in Palm Springs and that was pretty fun!!


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## dougall5505 (Sep 1, 2006)

the whole point of the project was to transport employees from the oregon health and science university's upper campus to there lower campus at south waterfront. some tourists will probably use it since it will have a awesome view of downtown from the tram and the upper station. but its mainly for OHSU employees


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## MarkDaMan (Dec 5, 2006)

OHSU is Portland's largest employer that ran out of room on their campus on the hill for new buildings. The city enticed them to expand on an industrial brownfield at the base of their hill instead of the hundred plus acres they own in the suburbs. OHSU said okay, if the city would help them build a mode of tranportation linking the two campuses, with a maximum travel time, preferably no more than 5 minutes. The city bit, OHSU built their last building on the hill, and than a second building in the South Waterfront district. That in turn has lead OHSU to create 1,000 jobs in their first South Waterfront tower. The hospital and most research space is up on the hill, so when a doc, who has his practice in the SoWa building needed to get up to the hospital, he was looking at a minimum of a 15 minute shuttle ride. The Aerial Tram will have him to the hospital in under 3 minutes. 

The streetcar extension to the district, and right next to the tram's lower station, also ties together Portland State Univesity and OHSU allowing better collaboration between the two universities.


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## thecarlost (Nov 6, 2005)

What's the passenger capacity for each of those capsules?


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## dougall5505 (Sep 1, 2006)

its no more than 20 i can't remeber the exact number though


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## MarkDaMan (Dec 5, 2006)

What are you smoking Dougall  Where'd you come up with 20?

From OHSU's website:

Cars: Two 79-passenger cars, both ADA-compatible

Capacity: 980 people/hour in each direction

Speed & ride time: 22 miles/hour; 3 minutes

Frequency: Departs every 5 minutes during peak hours
http://www.ohsu.edu/ohsuedu/about/transformation/tram/about.cfm


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## JoshYent (Nov 9, 2006)

i havent been down there for a few months looks like its comming along!


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## dougall5505 (Sep 1, 2006)

i was about to say that for some reason 70 popped into my head but that didn't make any sense they just seemed to small so i just guessed and came up with seventy. i must have been smoking


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## MarkDaMan (Dec 5, 2006)

not sure I'd like to be on one of those things at full capacity though, unless you are into the whole touchy grabby thing like a full MAX train...


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## Dick H (Oct 1, 2006)

MarkDaMan said:


> From OHSU's website:
> Cars: Two 79-passenger cars, both ADA-compatible


That's 78 passengers and 1 attendant. (either those are very thin people or they sit on each other's shoulders.) 

Anyway, this may be of interest.

The tram system has 2 backup power sources, but if they should 
all fail, Portland Fire & Rescue has developed a rescue procedure 
to lower the passengers from the stalled cars.










The tramcar attendant drops a pilot rope to the waiting rescue crew below.










Using the pilot rope, the main rescue ropes are raised and attached
to the Davit Arm that is extended from the cabin and locked into place.










Two firefighters are hauled up to the car to assist passengers into
a harness (we call it a diaper) and they are lowered, one by one.










Lowering a "victim". The white car is used as a pivot point to 
change the direction of the ropes back to the hauling team.










The lines are directed back to the hauling team who use a 
pulley system with a 4 to 1 mechanical advantage.


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## sequoias (Dec 21, 2004)

I saw it on the news when they finally opened it for revenue service. It looks cool. It reminds me of Heavenly aerial tram from Lake Tahoe to the ski resort on the top of the mountains. I rode on it few times.


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## MarkDaMan (Dec 5, 2006)

dat's pimp Dick!!! Glad to know in the worst of worst cases, we can count on y'all to come to our rescue!


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## dougall5505 (Sep 1, 2006)

good morning tram




























































































































































































tram hug


























im going to bed


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## JoshYent (Nov 9, 2006)

nice pix!


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## dougall5505 (Sep 1, 2006)

the tram opened to the public this weekend and I was lucky enough to reserve a spot
















































































i like this reflection it looks like god is looking over the city

















the cars are so reflective


































































































so reflective







































































and i'll close with some more reflection


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## Inkdaub (Dec 28, 2006)

Great pics...I love the tram.

St Helens looks massive in that one pic from...I assume...the upper station.


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## thecarlost (Nov 6, 2005)

Well, finally the pictures i wanted to see.

Oregon people, keep posting pictures of the constructive details; like platforms, pulleys, cables, panels. I'm fascinated with this thing.


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## LosAngelesMetroBoy (Aug 13, 2006)

Inkdaub said:


> Great pics...I love the tram.
> 
> St Helens looks massive in that one pic from...I assume...the upper station.


For future refrence, St. Helens is in washington, portland is in oregon.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

Nice show! The waterfall was the best one imo. To see that in person must have been quite something!


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Photos from Juan Benedicto

Portland WES Commuter also known as the train to nowhere.... 


IMG_9284 by Juan Benedicto, on Flickr


Untitled by Juan Benedicto, on Flickr

MAX LRT


IMG_9370 by Juan Benedicto, on Flickr


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

I suppose it is a bit odd that the train doesn't go downtown. It seems that these small DMUs that don't go downtown are becoming more common in the US. The Denton A-Train, the Sprinter, eBart, SMART, some would even say the Riverline although it does go to downtown Trenton and Camden, just not Philly.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

^ The Ridership numbers are embarrassing low..

*First Quarter 2015 Daily Ridership numbers for Portland*

Source : http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2015-q1-ridership-APTA.pdf

*Light Rail*
Portland / MAX - 116,300 (2015)

*Streetcar*
Portland / Streetcar - 20,011 (2014)

*Bus Ridership*
Portland / Trimet Bus - 207,100 (2015)

*Commuter Rail*
Portland Suburbs / WES - 1,800 (2015)


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## emale (Jun 26, 2015)

Nexis said:


> ^ The Ridership numbers are embarrassing low..


 "Embarrassing low" compared to what other system? What other similar sized markets?


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

emale said:


> "Embarrassing low" compared to what other system? What other similar sized markets?


Well look at the other systems in this country...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1846607


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## jonasry (Feb 6, 2011)

Well, WES line should be extended to the state capital Salem as soon as possible.


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## emale (Jun 26, 2015)

Nexis said:


> Well look at the other systems in this country...


You can't just evaluate the raw numbers you have to look at comparable travel markets. For instance Portland's LRT will always be lower than MBTA and MTA because they have a much larger population base and therefore the ability to generate more transit trips. Portland has much higher daily boarding's than say Salt Lake City which would be a comparable market or Dallas which would be a larger market.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

emale said:


> You can't just evaluate the raw numbers you have to look at comparable travel markets. For instance Portland's LRT will always be lower than MBTA and MTA because they have a much larger population base and therefore the ability to generate more transit trips. Portland has much higher daily boarding's than say Salt Lake City which would be a comparable market or Dallas which would be a larger market.


In Terms of commuter rail its very low... Other systems in Auto-Centric regions have made their commuter rail work like Tri-Rail in South Florida , MetroLinx in LA and Front Runner in Salt Lake. 1,000 is a dozen bus loads of people. The route should have never been built , but I'm sure they're were some back door deals.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

It's a 2-car commuter train that runs 8 trips during morning rush hour and 8 in the evening M to F between only five stations -- of course it's a low count.

Most if not all of the line uses a pre-existing rail line.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Also, it serves a part of the metro that never really had much of a Trimet presence. Before WES, there was only one bus line to Tualatin, the farthest southwest Trimet went.

The fact that it has gotten so many people in that area to transition to mass transit in the last six years is a miracle to say the least.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*YOU ASKED: WILL THERE BE PARK & RIDES ALONG THE MAX ORANGE LINE?*
AUGUST 26, 2015 | BRIAN LUM



> *SE Tacoma St/Johnson Creek Station
> 318 cars, 72 bikes*
> 
> 
> ...


Source: http://howweroll.trimet.org/2015/08/26/you-asked-will-there-be-park-rides-along-the-max-orange-line/


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*TriMet's new electronic fare system dubbed 'Hop Fastpass'*
By Elliot Njus | The Oregonian/OregonLive | updated September 03, 2015 at 8:45 PM












> The e-fare system will also be the standard for payment on Clark County's C-Tran buses and the Portland Streetcar when it launches in 2017. Work crews have recently been tearing up MAX stations to install underground infrastructure for the system.
> 
> ...
> 
> The $30 million system will let riders tap a prepaid card to pay for a ride. It will also accept Apple Pay, Google Wallet and contactless bank cards.


Source: http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2015/09/trimets_new_electronic_fare_sy.html


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*Orange Line, Tilikum Crossing open Saturday; TriMet free all day*
By Elliot Njus | The Oregonian/OregonLive | updated September 12, 2015 at 5:02 AM

Free rides starting at 11 AM! :banana:

Source: http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2015/09/orange_line_tilikum_crossing_o.html


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Source: http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2015/09/orange_line_tilikum_crossing_o_1.html


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2015/09/orange_line_tilikum_crossing_o_1.html


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)




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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

Updated maps on urbanrail.net:


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

DSC05862a by Sam Churchill, on Flickr


DSC05867a by Sam Churchill, on Flickr


DSC05916a by Sam Churchill, on Flickr


DSC05921a by Sam Churchill, on Flickr


DSC05932a by Sam Churchill, on Flickr


DSC05964a by Sam Churchill, on Flickr


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Any more photos of the Streetcar?


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## MiaM (Jul 2, 2010)

^^ Does 2017.01.08 mean the eigth of january or the first of july? 

/European used to yyyy-mm-dd date convention


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

MiaM said:


> ^^ Does 2017.01.08 mean the eigth of january or the first of july?
> 
> /European used to yyyy-mm-dd date convention


I use ISO 8601 (YYYY-MM-DD).

So it's January 8, not August 8 (I think you meant August, not July).


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*TriMet and ODOT Partner to Link Sunset Transit Center to Oregon Coast*
SOURCE: TRIMET OCT 25, 2016












> A new service launched of a new bus connection at the Sunset Transit Center, but this service gets riders all the way to the Oregon Coast. TriMet, in partnership with the Oregon Department of Transportation’s (ODOT) Point intercity bus service, has added a new stop at our second largest transit center, linking transit riders to this coastal connector along its Portland-Astoria route.
> 
> The Point bus now stops at the Sunset Transit Center, located at 10470 SW Barnes Rd in Beaverton four times per day, every day. This added stop now provides direct connections for Point riders traveling from the coast to all destinations in the greater Portland area via the MAX Blue and Red lines, five bus lines and the Forest Heights shuttle. This is the first time the Point has served a TriMet transit center, providing improved regional connections.


Source: http://www.masstransitmag.com/press...to-link-sunset-transit-center-to-oregon-coast


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Surprise surprise

*MAX Orange Line riders aren't showing up as predicted*
By Elliot Njus | The Oregonian/OregonLive | on October 13, 2016 at 9:23 AM, updated October 14, 2016 at 9:09 AM












> Forecasts used to help justify federal funding for the project called for 17,000 average weekday trips in 2016. The Orange Line has so far averaged less than 11,000.
> 
> TriMet planners say they're still hopeful the $1.4 billion project will live up to projections. It won't report back to the federal government until the end of next year.
> 
> ...


More: http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2016/10/max_orange_line_riders_arent_s.html


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*Division-only transit line decision postponed*
Created on Thursday, 27 October 2016 | Written by Christopher Keizur



> A final vote on the alignment of the Division Street bus rapid-transit line between Portland and Gresham was pushed back by the steering committee on Monday to address lingering concerns.
> 
> Officials from Metro and TriMet had hoped to finish the process at the Oct. 24 meeting, but the decision was delayed until Nov. 7.
> 
> ...


Source: http://pamplinmedia.com/pt/9-news/329104-208625-division-only-transit-line-decision-postponed


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## emale (Jun 26, 2015)

diz said:


> *Division-only transit line decision postponed*
> Created on Thursday, 27 October 2016 | Written by Christopher Keizur
> 
> 
> ...


 Has anyone seen new travel time estimates for this proposed service?


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

VOTE!

*Tigard voters will decide on Southwest Corridor light-rail project*
By Elliot Njus | The Oregonian/OregonLive | on October 26, 2016 at 5:00 AM, updated October 27, 2016 at 12:28 PM



> A city ballot measure asks whether Tigard should drop its formal opposition to light rail, enshrined in the municipal charter by voters in 2014, and support extending MAX service to its downtown.
> 
> A "no" vote could put an end the Portland-to-Tualatin "Southwest Corridor" proposal that has been in the works for nearly five years. It's expected to cost $2.4 to $2.8 billion in 2025 dollars, reflecting the time when construction would be underway, and would either use Barbur Boulevard or run alongside Interstate 5 to Tigard before ending at Bridgeport Village.
> 
> ...


Source: http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2016/10/tigard_voters_will_decide_on_s.html


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*‘Gorge Express’ has popular first year, ODOT considers HR extension*
By Patrick Mulvihill As of Friday, October 28, 2016









Gorge Express buses by Oregon Department of Transportation, on Flickr



> A shuttle service linking Portland to Multnomah Falls “far surpassed” Oregon Department of Transportation’s expectations during its first test year, with more than 30,000 trips clocked in.
> 
> ODOT is now seeking federal funding to keep “Columbia Gorge Express” rolling beyond its two-year pilot foray, and to extend the bus route to Hood River — likely in 2018.
> 
> ...


Source: http://www.hoodrivernews.com/news/2016/oct/29/gorge-express-has-popular-first-year-odot-consider/


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

emale said:


> Has anyone seen new travel time estimates for this proposed service?


Nope. This proposal is going absolutely nowhere. :lol:


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

#Trimet #MAX Blue Line Headlamp Through Autumn by Joe A. Kunzler, on Flickr









Single #Trimet MAX Yellow Line Call in the Fall by Joe A. Kunzler, on Flickr









MAX Orange Line Departing the Tilikum Bridge... by Joe A. Kunzler, on Flickr









Trimet MAX Orange Line in OMSI/SE Water MAX Station by Joe A. Kunzler, on Flickr


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Underground cell-phone service is now available at Washington Park station






http://news.trimet.org/2016/11/trimet-riders-can-now-make-new-connections-260-feet-underground/


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Why just Verizon? That's more annoying than the riots.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*Tigard voters say 'yes' to light rail -- by just 130 votes*
By Betsy Hammond | The Oregonian/OregonLive | on November 16, 2016 at 4:38 PM, updated November 16, 2016 at 4:55 PM



> By the squeaker margin of 50.3 percent to 49.7 percent, Tigard voters have cleared the way for TriMet to continue with plans to create a light rail corridor from Portland to Tualatin.
> 
> ...
> 
> Don't look to hop a MAX ride from Portland to Bridgeport Village any time soon, however. The project, expected to eventually cost about $2.5 billion, isn't slated to be completed until 2025.


Source: http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/11/tigard_voters_say_yes_to_light.html


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

*Snow in the Portland area*

Stuck buses in Beaverton










http://www.oregonlive.com/weather/i...and_winter_weather_tuesda.html#incart_gallery


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

The "Vine" express bus service opened in Vancouver, Washington 2017.01.08. The new bus route connects Vancouver city center to Vancouver Mall on the east side









https://twitter.com/ctranvancouver/status/818616343775711232








https://twitter.com/ctranvancouver/status/818616343775711232








https://twitter.com/ctranvancouver/status/818616343775711232








https://twitter.com/ctranvancouver/status/818616343775711232








https://twitter.com/_mboles/status/817838002449715200








https://twitter.com/ctranvancouver/status/817837540057104384
Mall transit center has a covered connection to the mall








https://twitter.com/Mitchy19621/status/818512595942395904








https://twitter.com/ctranvancouver/status/816736499915857920








https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/ind...ouver_Mall_Transit_Center.jpg&oldid=229262393


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

"*Gresham City Hall MAX Station to get a new look*"










http://news.trimet.org/2017/01/gresham-city-hall-max-station-to-get-a-new-look/


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)




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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)




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## MiaM (Jul 2, 2010)

Frost/ice on the wire, a classic.

In Sweden the solution to this is boring simple, keep one old tram per line (Stockholm/SL) or use the regular older trams (Gothenburg) which doesen't use any modern electronics for feeding power to the motors, and when there is risk of ice/snow on the line let a tram or preferable a set of joined trams run through the network at night when there is no regular traffic.

However as the comments to the youtube clip suggests there seems to be something strange with this pantograph. Seeing "sparks" fall down slowly is an indication of stuff burning of the panthograph or worse burning of the wires surface.

I don't know if theese units have it, but atleast on modern (and aftermarket equipped older) mainline electric trains the pantograph usually has an autodrop feature. Air pressure is fed to a canal inside the strip on the top of the panthgraph, and if there is damage to the strip air will leak out and that immideatly forces the pantograph to drop before things get worse.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Milwaukie Max by Zack Mensinger, on Flickr


20160820 018 TriMet MAX @ Union Station by David Wilson, on Flickr


20160820 006 MAX @ Deltaport Vanport station by David Wilson, on Flickr


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## MiaM (Jul 2, 2010)

^^
Do theese kind of cars in general get scrapped or sold of to some other place?


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

^^ Not sure how TriMet will do it.

---

*TriMet rolls out new bus lines in east Portland, Gresham and the westside*
Posted March 01, 2018 at 12:40 PM | Updated March 01, 2018 at 12:44 PM | Andrew Theen


*Line 42 Denny/Hall*






*Line 74 162nd Ave*






*Line 82 South Gresham*









Source: http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2018/03/post_6.html


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*Portland Streetcar NS Line*


TriMet Siemens SD-600 #208 and Portland Streetcar Skoda 10T #5 by TriMet Bus Fan, on Flickr


TriMet Siemens SD-600 #208 and Portland Streetcar Skoda 10T #5 by TriMet Bus Fan, on Flickr


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

MiaM said:


> ^^
> Do theese kind of cars in general get scrapped or sold of to some other place?


San Diego's original LRV's went to Mendoza, Argentina.

The original fleet of San Jose VTA went to Salt Lake City for a few years.

Then again the Boeing Vertol LRV's on the SF Muni went to the junkyard immediately.

Nobody knows I think.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*OMSI/SE Water Station* *•*


Tillicum Max Train Station by Jack Bailey, on Flickr


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*Metro* has released the *Initial Route Proposal* for the *SW Corridor Light Rail Project*.










Source: https://www.oregonmetro.gov/public-projects/southwest-corridor-plan/light-rail-study


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

43,000 daily riders is better than I imagined.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

zaphod said:


> 43,000 daily riders is better than I imagined.


They projected 17,000 for the Orange Line but it's still floating around 11,000 two years later. It's growing though.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Some train interiors

*Type 1*


TriMet 1984 Bombardier Train 111 Interior by OR Transit Fan, on Flickr

*Type 2*


TriMet 1997 Siemens SD670 227 Interior by OR Transit Fan, on Flickr


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

I haven't ridden the ones in Portland specifically, but I have ridden similar LRV's in Houston and Minneapolis.

I don't like the seat layout. You have people sitting a couple feet higher than you looking down at you. Not really enjoyable on PT when some of the people on the train are sketchy.

The seats should face towards the ends of the cars, split from the center of the middle segment.


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## pudgym29 (Jun 12, 2012)

*Market forces*



zaphod said:


> San Diego's original LRV's went to Mendoza, Argentina.
> The original fleet of San Jose VTA went to Salt Lake City for a few years.
> Then again the Boeing Vertol LRV's on the SF Muni went to the junkyard immediately.
> Nobody knows I think.


    Tokyo Metro's subway trains have found second lives in Argentina and Indonesia. 
It depends on whether the contract offering the cars *allows* them to be used in passenger service. The Chicago Transit Authority forbids this to whomever buys its retiring train cars.


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## MiaM (Jul 2, 2010)

I can't really figure out why they wouldn't allow the buyer to use them in passenger service? Are they embarrased of the state they may be in?

The transit authority in Stockholm, Sweden, called SL, did the same thing when they replaced their late 1960's commuter trains some years ago. Now when they replaced their 80's trails they actually lifted this and a few of them are in more regional passenger service operated by a private operator. (In Sweden almost all rail infrastructure except metro/subways and tram lines are public access and mostly owned by the state except some industrial connections, and anyone who qualifies for the terms can apply for train path allocation and run their trains).


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## pudgym29 (Jun 12, 2012)

MiaM said:


> I can't really figure out why they wouldn't allow the buyer to use them in passenger service? Are they embarrassed of the state they may be in? {edit}


    ^^ 
No, it was the result of one of the problems of the late 20th Century in the U.S.A. 
*Litigants suing anybody and everybody with funds after a transit accident.*
I can't find the URL, but I have heard: The Chicago Transit Authority sold some flat-door 6000s rapid transit cars to SEPTA in 1985. They were refit and went into service on the SEPTA Norristown line. 
One of these trains was involved in an accident. Lawyers for the injured parties named everybody, _including the CTA_, as a defendent being at fault.
The Authority did not enjoy being sued for something it was only tangentially responsible for (if at all), so subsequent to this, whenever Authority rapid transit trains are being retired, one of the clauses in the '_scrap_' contract is that _they may not be used in passenger service_.


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## MiaM (Jul 2, 2010)

^^

Oh, interesting, and terrible! Thanks for the info!

So in practice they could sell them to another country where it's not possible to sue anywone that lightly?


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

A preferred route for southwest light rail was released earlier this month.










https://www.oregonlive.com/expo/news/erry-2018/08/ec30ba366f2435/portlands-next-light-rail-will.html


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## phoenixboi08 (Dec 6, 2009)

MiaM said:


> ^^
> 
> Oh, interesting, and terrible! Thanks for the info!
> 
> So in practice they could sell them to another country where it's not possible to sue anywone that lightly?


I think this is also a bit multifaceted?

I don't know about the CTA, but I work for a public transport agency in the North East, and I know that often manufacturers themselves insist on these types of clauses in contracts, because they don't want to compete with their own equipment. 

I guess it sounds sinister, but it makes some sense...(and I'd be surprised if this isn't somewhat common, elsewhere).

Think of it like this: They're selling some new, more efficient version of existing equipment, and suddenly every agency who own the earlier equipment flood the market with cheaper alternatives to what is currently being sold. Makes life a bit harder for the manufacturer -- and new products more expensive for customers.

They usually stipulate that the agency must return the vehicles to the manufacturer for scrapping. The manufacturer could refurbish them and re-let them, I suppose...I'd bet they do (and further, I bet this is what may be less common for US manufacturers/equipment than with those elsewhere).


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## MiaM (Jul 2, 2010)

^^

I've suspected that manufacturers does that.

Here in Sweden the commuter trains in the Stockholm area (capital) were replaced some years ago, and all the older trains were scrapped. For sure the old trains were from late 60's up to very early 70's and time had taken it's toll, but there are at least one known case where someone got a straight no when they wanted to buy som of the trains.

A while later the communter trains i Scania (the county with Swedens third largest city is) did about the same kind of replacement. Their old trains were from the 80's so not that worn out, but the new trains were from the same manufacturer as those in Stockholm. They instead put in ads in some major newspapers and thus created opinion which ended up that other puplation-wise smaller counties bought all the old trains. Most of the trains ended up where they would never had bought new trains instead, and in some cases new local communter lines were such a success that they iirc ended up actually buing some new trains as well.

Since then it seems like the practice of demanding the old stock to be scrapped has been more or less abandoned.

(Fun fact: All theese commuter trains made in the 60's-70's-80's and actually first half of the 90's here in Sweden are technically related to each other and also to the Rc electric locomotives (compare to AEM7/ALP44 in the US), so afaik the same knowledge/competence and partially the same parts can be used for reparing both the locos and the EMU's. Each EMU, which is two cars, has the power of about a third Rc loco).


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## Aluna_LoveKenya (Jul 2, 2018)

The train system is always good for natural harmony. Rather than own a vehicle if we use transport, we can contribute to a pollution free country


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

*Countdown to the largest single service expansion in TriMet history*

http://news.trimet.org/2018/08/countdown-to-the-largest-single-service-expansion-in-trimet-history/


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

*TriMet considers closing four low-ridership, closely spaced MAX stations to move trains more efficiently through Downtown Portland*

http://news.trimet.org/2018/09/trim...s-more-efficiently-through-downtown-portland/


Kings Hill/SW Salmon St Station
Mall/SW 4th Ave Station
Mall/SW 5th Ave Station
Skidmore Fountain Station


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## hmmwv (Jul 19, 2006)

Way to go to make even the latest electric buses look dated, TriMet!


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*TriMet launches new zero emission, wind-powered electric buses*
Posted by Jonathan Maus (Publisher/Editor) on April 16th, 2019 at 3:22 pm



> TriMet and their partners launched five new all-electric buses at the Sunset Transit Center this morning. They claim to be the first transit agency in the nation to put fully wind-powered buses into regular service.
> 
> TriMet expects to have 10 electric buses on the road by summer of next year. The new rigs are part of the agency’s push to have a completely non-diesel fleet by 2040. And, with an assist from Portland General Electric, 100% of their power will be created from wind turbines.


Source: https://bikeportland.org/2019/04/16...o-emission-wind-powered-electric-buses-298427


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)




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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*Portland becomes first US city to offer Apple Pay Express Transit integration*
By Mikey Campbell	
Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 02:44 pm PT (05:44 pm ET)












> *For the first time in the U.S., Apple iPhone and Apple Watch owners can use their devices' Express Transit functionality to board the Portland-Vancouver area's TriMet and C-Tran buses, MAX light rail trains and the Portland Streetcar. *
> 
> Hop Fastpass supports Express Transit technology, meaning iPhone and Apple Watch users can conduct touchless transportation terminal transactions without unlocking or waking their device. The NFC hardware feature enables speedy boarding and is designed to replace TriMet's existing app-based solution that is set to expire by the end of 2019.


Source: https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...o-offer-apple-pay-express-transit-integration


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*A closer look at the new bus/bike lane on SW Madison*
Posted by Jonathan Maus (Publisher/Editor) on May 21st, 2019 at 12:25 pm



> PBOT has restriped three blocks of SW Madison from 4th to 1st. On two of those blocks, 4th and 3rd, they’ve separated a bus/bike only lane from other lanes with plastic wands and curbs. The roadway is 36-feet wide from curb-to-curb. It used to have a standard, unprotected bike lane, two other vehicles lanes, and a lane used for on-street auto parking. Now there are two, 11-foot wide vehicle lanes, and one 15-foot wide bus/bike lane. The bus/bike lane is striped with what PBOT says is a “passing lane” for bicycle riders to the left of the curbside lane.







































More here: https://bikeportland.org/2019/05/21/a-closer-look-at-the-new-bus-bike-lane-on-sw-madison-300101


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Video from TriMet


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Ride the Portland Streetcar!
A Loop


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

Could it be any slower? Ugh.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

I attempted my own version of the TriMet system map, only with Portland Streetcar stops. I made this for the MAX Light Rail wikipedia article.

It feels unfinished. I think I'll add the Portland city limits outline and the Columbia River.


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## Khaul (Sep 8, 2009)

diz said:


> Ride the Portland Streetcar!
> A Loop


Those streets look really unfriendly to pedestrians. It's all car parks, loads of traffic and ugly buildings without street level shops.


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## MrAronymous (Aug 7, 2011)

To be honest with you, there's a lot of white space while the labels are very small in comparison. I know it's difficult with the layout that has many branches on all sides, but next time maybe try to enlarge the city center even more. That way I maybe there is room for bigger labels so I don't have to zoom in in order to be able to read it.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

I think there should be clearer differentiation between the MAX and the other services. Having them all the same line weight and style and just different colours seems misleading and unclear. In my observations, a lot cities have a map just for its main system (just subway/metro/LRT) and a separate maps for other services, but if they do have a map that combines them it's very clear which is which. Take this Toronto subway and streetcar map for example. 
https://www.blogto.com/city/2019/02/new-maps-ttc-subway-entire-streetcar-network/


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Thank you for the feedback! I will make improvements with these into consideration.


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## Stuu (Feb 7, 2007)

^^
Maybe put the direction arrows inside the stop circles to reduce the amount of visual information?

Also I would try to make the blue line straight across the map, and the yellow/orange straight top to bottom. That would help reinforce the hierarchy, and removes unnecessary corners - geography doesn't really matter for this sort of map


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## MiaM (Jul 2, 2010)

Why is the orange and the yellow lines two separate lines, when the map suggest that they actually are one single line changing color mid journey?

Also, why are the A and B loop lines separate lines while the north-south street car line is one single line? The amount of stops that's shared in both directions seems to be the same for the north-south line as for the A/B loops :O

Btw, the map seems to be missing direction arrows on the southern loop of the north-south street car line.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Stuu said:


> ^^
> Maybe put the direction arrows inside the stop circles to reduce the amount of visual information?
> 
> Also I would try to make the blue line straight across the map, and the yellow/orange straight top to bottom. That would help reinforce the hierarchy, and removes unnecessary corners - geography doesn't really matter for this sort of map


Thanks for the feedback! I don't think that will work, as the Blue and Yellow Lines meet at the Steel Bridge (along with the Red and Green).



MiaM said:


> Why is the orange and the yellow lines two separate lines, when the map suggest that they actually are one single line changing color mid journey?
> 
> Also, why are the A and B loop lines separate lines while the north-south street car line is one single line? The amount of stops that's shared in both directions seems to be the same for the north-south line as for the A/B loops :O
> 
> Btw, the map seems to be missing direction arrows on the southern loop of the north-south street car line.


Thanks for catching that! It looks like I also screwed up one of the directions.

The Orange-Yellow line thing is a TriMet marketing stunt. Nowadays, trains brand the Yellow Line when they travel northbound all the way from SE Park Avenue, and Orange Line from Expo Center.

As for the A and B Loops :dunno:


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## dysharmonica (Dec 3, 2015)

Khaul said:


> Those streets look really unfriendly to pedestrians. It's all car parks, loads of traffic and ugly buildings without street level shops.


Welcome to Any Town, USA. It's a depressing street scape 95% of the time


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## Khaul (Sep 8, 2009)

^^ I know. I spent a couple of years living in Boston. Not bad, considering, but people kept saying that their public transport was excellent, like in Europe. "Where in Europe?", I always wondered. 

Anyway, I though ubercool Portland would be somehow different, especially in an area served by streetcar line. There should be lots of TOD and all that.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Khaul said:


> ^^ I know. I spent a couple of years living in Boston. Not bad, considering, but people kept saying that their public transport was excellent, like in Europe. "Where in Europe?", I always wondered.
> 
> Anyway, I though ubercool Portland would be somehow different, especially in an area served by streetcar line. There should be lots of TOD and all that.


It was slow to develop. With the recent boom, however, there's a TON of development, especially around these corridors. Today looks a lot different from the video (especially the 9:00 mark)


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*Inclined elevator connecting future MAX line to Marquam Hill remains on TriMet’s short list*
Posted Jun 10, 3:45 PM | By Andrew Theen | The Oregonian/OregonLive












> The decisionmakers on TriMet’s Southwest Corridor Steering Committee – a collection that includes elected officials from Portland, Tigard, the Metro regional government, Washington County and Tualatin – voted Monday to move forward with studying the potential $45 million inclined elevator, or a combined pedestrian bridge and elevator, as options for the Southwest Gibbs Street station on a planned rail line along Barbur Boulevard.
> 
> The committee decided to keep the more conventional elevator tower connecting to a 265-foot-long bridge to Southwest Terwilliger Boulevard as another option. The planned station on Southwest Gibbs Street, which would take passengers to Oregon Health & Science University and other medical institutions, is expected to be one of the busiest of the 13 stations on the light rail connecting downtown to Bridgeport Village.


Source: https://www.oregonlive.com/commutin...rquam-hill-remains-on-trimets-short-list.html


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## lkstrknb (Jan 14, 2009)

While inclined elevators are cool, it seems like this would be better served with 1 long escalator or 2 short ones. The distance doesn't seem that far.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*City Commissioner Chloe Eudaly Wants to Create Miles of Bus-Only Lanes Along Portland’s Busiest Streets*
By Rachel Monahan | Published 5:36 AM Updated 8:53 AM












> In 18 months, Portland streets could see the most dramatic change in public transit since the arrival of the streetcar. All it will take is gallons of red paint.
> 
> Deep in the bowels of city bureaucracy, Portland transportation officials under the direction of Commissioner Chloe Eudaly are preparing to debut what they're calling the "Red Lane Project": removing miles of roadside parking and traffic lanes from Portland streets to make room for uninterrupted routes for buses.
> 
> ...


Source: https://www.wweek.com/news/city/201...s-only-lanes-along-portlands-busiest-streets/


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## Khaul (Sep 8, 2009)

diz said:


> It was slow to develop. With the recent boom, however, there's a TON of development, especially around these corridors. Today looks a lot different from the video (especially the 9:00 mark)


Good to know. Cheers.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)




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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1141102318944833537


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

*The Idea for MAX Tunnel Under Downtown Emerged From Examination of How to Fix the Steel Bridge Bottleneck*
By Sophie Peel | Published June 28 at 2:34 PM Updated June 28 at 2:51 PM












> [Metro and Trimet] are considering the feasibility of burying a stretch of its MAX lines from *Goose Hollow in Southwest Portland to the Lloyd Center area in Northeast Portland* to lessen the backup at the Steel Bridge. They're calling the research endeavor the MAX Tunnel Study and have dedicated a website to its progress, asking for community input through a survey.
> 
> ...
> 
> "The Tunnel Concepts provide the most benefits in terms of travel time savings (15 minutes between Goose Hollow and Lloyd Center Stations), increased system leadership, and improved system on-time performance (97 percent for all lines within the study area), but come at the highest cost," the report says.


Source: https://www.wweek.com/news/2019/06/...on-of-how-to-fix-the-steel-bridge-bottleneck/


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

If they did that, would the existing surface alignment be turned over to the streetcar? Or would existing red/blue trains be split(thus splitting frequency further down the line) with some underground and others above?


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

zaphod said:


> If they did that, would the existing surface alignment be turned over to the streetcar? Or would existing red/blue trains be split(thus splitting frequency further down the line) with some underground and others above?


They literally just announced the start of this project, so it isn't clear yet how things are going to shape up operations-wise. If I had to guess, R/B/G would all be using the Subway (and extended to 4-car trains), while Y/O stay on the surface along with SWLRT, and part of the existing corridor becoming streetcar.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

^^ That's a good guess, but based of off Metro's current Regional Transportation Plan, the Green Line will be part of the SW Corridor project, which will eventually loop to Clackamas Town Center (Green Line eastern terminus) via the I-5/I-205 interchange near Tualatin.


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## BoulderGrad (Jun 29, 2005)

^^A number of US light rail systems could stand to do this as usage expands:

-Seattle made use of the existing bus tunnel to get trains through DT and will be building a second one as part of ST3
-San Fran and LA are already building DT bypass tunnels
-Dallas is already planning a few tunnels
-Denver could stand to lose the street running segments downtown
-SLC has a few lines running in mixed traffic downtown


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## emale (Jun 26, 2015)

If the tunnel is built TriMet would still continue operate the surface lines. Think of an express and local train. It would make sense to build the underground stations with an ultimate capacity for a 4 car consist. As you know a 4 car consist could not operate on the downtown streets given our 200 foot blocks


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

emale said:


> If the tunnel is built TriMet would still continue operate the surface lines. Think of an express and local train. It would make sense to build the underground stations with an ultimate capacity for a 4 car consist. As you know a 4 car consist could not operate on the downtown streets given our 200 foot blocks


4-car consists would require upgrading the rest of the stations, however, as they were built in the same length, even the newer Orange Line ones.


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

diz said:


> ^^ That's a good guess, but based of off Metro's current Regional Transportation Plan, the Green Line will be part of the SW Corridor project, which will eventually loop to Clackamas Town Center (Green Line eastern terminus) via the I-5/I-205 interchange near Tualatin.


I didn't really see that specifically in the plans. Just a line connecting Tualatin and Clackamas that seemed more like an extension of the NS Streetcar to me.

Now as for operations, the plans are clearly evolving quickly, because the 2018 RTP is assuming a 4 stop Subway, and thats already been bumped to 6-stops. I was assuming a 2-track Subway with no other portals in the downtown, for the sake of reliability. You could assume an extra set of tracks between Rose Garden and Pioneer Sq (Which I think would be a good idea, because it would mean enough core capacity for at least 50 years), but even then, the interlining between Barbur and Banfield should broken, to increase capacity throughout the system. With my Operations plan, you could have the R/G/B having 10tph on each line, and potentially the same on Y/O, though a Powell-Foster MAX could muck things up some.




BoulderGrad said:


> ^^A number of US light rail systems could stand to do this as usage expands:
> 
> -Seattle made use of the existing bus tunnel to get trains through DT and will be building a second one as part of ST3
> -San Fran and LA are already building DT bypass tunnels
> ...


A bit of clarification. LRT was always taken into consideration in with Seattle's Bus Tunnel (Though plans changed dramatically form the initial concept), and the second Tunnel was always in the works, and features exactly the kind of realignment that I'm advocating for in Portland, because the segment south of Downtown is getting rerouted into the new tunnel. The situation with LA's DT Connector is similar. Denver was considering a DT Subway back in the 80's, but it decided to go with what San Diego did and cheap out Downtown. San Diego's also talking Underground, but I think they're at a less advanced stage in planning than Portland is.




emale said:


> If the tunnel is built TriMet would still continue operate the surface lines. Think of an express and local train. It would make sense to build the underground stations with an ultimate capacity for a 4 car consist. As you know a 4 car consist could not operate on the downtown streets given our 200 foot blocks


No, they should not. Reverse branching is awful, the same of the game is throughput and simplicity, not slavish devotion to OSRs.



diz said:


> 4-car consists would require upgrading the rest of the stations, however, as they were built in the same length, even the newer Orange Line ones.


You could just widen the platforms out to Gateway and Beaverton, and do what I call "make/breaks", having some cars added/subtracted at these locations. This would right-size capacity on the outer segments while giving maximum capacity to where it's needed the most.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

emale said:


> If the tunnel is built TriMet would still continue operate the surface lines. Think of an express and local train. It would make sense to build the underground stations with an ultimate capacity for a 4 car consist. As you know a 4 car consist could not operate on the downtown streets given our 200 foot blocks


Would there really be high enough train frequency to justify the expense of a tunnel if it didn't even have all the trains using it? And if the trains were divided between the tunnel and the surface, wouldn't there be so much extra capacity available that it would render longer consists unnecessary? A tunnel could easily handle 30 trains per hour per direction. Does anyone know how many tph are passing through each of the two corridors in peak periods now?


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

Nouvellecosse said:


> Would there really be high enough train frequency to justify the expense of a tunnel if it didn't even have all the trains using it? And if the trains were divided between the tunnel and the surface, wouldn't there be so much extra capacity available that it would render longer consists unnecessary? A tunnel could easily handle 30 trains per hour per direction. Does anyone know how many tph are passing through each of the two corridors in peak periods now?


The report states that there's about 20tph p.d. scheduled across the bridge at peak, 2/3rds of which goes to the Banfield corridor and 1/3rd to the Interstate corridor. Trimet estimates that demand will be rising 32tph p.d. in the years ahead, with the Barbur and Vancouver extensions boosting demand. I would say that Trimet is underestimating potential demand here.


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## Stuu (Feb 7, 2007)

FDW said:


> You could just widen the platforms out to Gateway and Beaverton, and do what I call "make/breaks", having some cars added/subtracted at these locations. This would right-size capacity on the outer segments while giving maximum capacity to where it's needed the most.


Does any LRT or metro anywhere do that?


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

Stuu said:


> Does any LRT or metro anywhere do that?


MUNI used to this with the Market St Subway, and San Diego used to do it, though for entirely different reasons.

EDIT: I just remembered that Amtrak does this with the Empire Builder, and used to do this with more routes. There's also Seattles Bus Tunnel, and its use of Convoy ops. Different tech, same principle, same requirement of operational discipline (that King County Metro really didnt have).


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## Stuu (Feb 7, 2007)

FDW said:


> MUNI used to this with the Market St Subway, and San Diego used to do it, though for entirely different reasons.
> 
> EDIT: I just remembered that Amtrak does this with the Empire Builder, and used to do this with more routes. There's also Seattles Bus Tunnel, and its use of Convoy ops. Different tech, same principle, same requirement of operational discipline (that King County Metro really didnt have).


It's very common in commuter and long distance rail, I hadn't heard of it being used on urban systems. For LRT I would have thought it made more sense to increase the frequency on the busiest sections rather than joining and splitting trains, especially on non-segregated systems


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

Stuu said:


> It's very common in commuter and long distance rail, I hadn't heard of it being used on urban systems. For LRT I would have thought it made more sense to increase the frequency on the busiest sections rather than joining and splitting trains, especially on non-segregated systems


With MUNI, the splitting was a bad idea to begin with because of the uneven demand in the branches, but it was done because Embarcadero wasn't built with a crossover behind the station, so they had to make the most of the capacity they had.

Portland's a bit different, it functions more on the lines of a regional rail system, with the East and West lines reaching to the edge of the urbanized area, with similar plans at least for the South. So I think some Regional style solutions might be appropriate here.


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## lkstrknb (Jan 14, 2009)

The metro to Munich International Airport (Munich, Germany) spits a couple stations before the airport. The front half of the train continues to the airport and the back half goes somewhere else. There is a scheduled dwell time of about 4 minutes here where the train is uncoupled.


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## Lw25 (Aug 6, 2014)

lkstrknb said:


> The metro to Munich International Airport (Munich, Germany) spits a couple stations before the airport. The front half of the train continues to the airport and the back half goes somewhere else. There is a scheduled dwell time of about 4 minutes here where the train is uncoupled.



To Freising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freising_station. They split S1 at Neufahrn bei Freising. But it is city rail (S-Bahn), not metro (U-Bahn), which in Munich is something different.


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## citysquared (Jun 10, 2019)

Portland is an example to many cities of what can be done to create a dense ramified system as recommended by Grescoe in straphangar without spending billions on subway construction.


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

citysquared said:


> Portland is an example to many cities of what can be done to create a dense ramified system as recommended by Grescoe in straphangar without spending billions on subway construction.


More like "delay". Portland reached the point of where they should be building the expensive subway already over a decade ago.


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## Khaul (Sep 8, 2009)

citysquared said:


> Portland is an example to many cities of what can be done to create a dense ramified system as recommended by Grescoe in straphangar without spending billions on subway construction.




Ahem, Portland clocks up about 45M pax a year counting MAX and the streetcar. That’s rather underwhelming for a 2.5M metro area.


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## Lw25 (Aug 6, 2014)

Khaul said:


> Ahem, Portland clocks up about 45M pax a year counting MAX and the streetcar. That’s rather underwhelming for a 2.5M metro area.



We are talking here about country which was basically forced to abandon their public transportation. Maybe it is wiser to construct firstly a very extensive tram network and then subway. You need time and coverage to boost usage and subway is not always the best solution for the second one. There was a way of constructing subway in the 60s by replacing the trams with subways. And after some time, a lot of cities is adding trams to the subway because underground communication is not always the best (eg. a few years ago in Budapest it was faster for me to use an old streetcar line than a few years old subway, because of the deepth of the stations). Paris is a good example of that. Even though they had 16 lines of subway and city railway, starting in 90s they add streetcar network basically the size of the both trams networks in Portland. Some cities do it along with scraping most of the subway investment (like Berlin) because of costs. Also, if you have low ridership now, nobody is going to guarantee that subway will change that. You need only time and good quality of service for that.


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## Khaul (Sep 8, 2009)

^^ I like trams a lot. I am just saying Portland is not a model for too many cities outside of the States. Not far from Portland, Vancouver has been doing a lot better for quite a while, probably starting in a similar place.


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## Lw25 (Aug 6, 2014)

^^ As I said, they need time to get use to it.


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## Khaul (Sep 8, 2009)

^^ Nah, they already think they have the best system this side of the Milky Way. 

Now, seriously, increasing ridership in modern American light rail systems (very low by any standards) hinges on changes in planning to allow transforming urban form. In most places light rail comes with a combination of tokenistic but highly trumpeted TODs and ineffective park-and-ride. If people needs to get used to anything regarding public transport it is that is not only a perk given to the poor as charity. Sadly, that kind of mentality is very hard to beat by what you see when to take a tram or a bus in the US.

_To be fair, Portland has been moving in the right direction for quite a while. They have already made changes to their minim parking requirements and they seem to be in the process or allowing multiple dwellings in plots originally zoned for single dwelling._

Note that in other jurisdictions, outside of the US but still in the Anglosphere, planning laws were and are changed swiftly, more effectively and with a lot less fanfare.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

They need to make the Park and Rides tolled using the Hop Fastpass system. Pay $5 to park, but that same $5 goes to your Trimet/CTran ticket.


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## Khaul (Sep 8, 2009)

How many car spaces do you need to fill just a tram? How many do you need to fill trams running every 4 min in peak? A whole lot of them, taking a huge amount of space around stations that would have a better use as apartment towers with shops and offices in the ground floor. You could have such high density development to at least 500m from the stop.


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## MiaM (Jul 2, 2010)

I had a look at the map.

Why is the Expo Center MAX station so far away from the actual Expo Center? Is the idea that the Expo Center parking is used as a park-and-ride facitily rather than the MAX used to go to/from the expo thing?

Also, how does public transit between Portland and Wancouver, WA work? (Generally worldwide there are usually some kind of crappiness when administrative divisions lies somewhere along where public transit ought to run).


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

MiaM said:


> I had a look at the map.
> 
> Why is the Expo Center MAX station so far away from the actual Expo Center? Is the idea that the Expo Center parking is used as a park-and-ride facitily rather than the MAX used to go to/from the expo thing?
> 
> Also, how does public transit between Portland and Wancouver, WA work? (Generally worldwide there are usually some kind of crappiness when administrative divisions lies somewhere along where public transit ought to run).


Yes, it's supposed to be a park and ride. Vancouver's agency, CTRAN, runs several bus lines into MAX transit centers and downtown Portland. But it's actually not that far compared to other stations (e.g. Hall/Nimbus WES station is supposed to serve Washington Square Mall, but it's really far; Albina/Mississippi and Legacy Emmanuel; and currently, the SW Corridor project is trying to build stations that will supposedly serve OHSU and PCC Sylvania, but the planned stations are far).


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## Lw25 (Aug 6, 2014)

Khaul said:


> ^^ Nah, they already think they have the best system this side of the Milky Way.
> 
> Now, seriously, increasing ridership in modern American light rail systems (very low by any standards) hinges on changes in planning to allow transforming urban form. In most places light rail comes with a combination of tokenistic but highly trumpeted TODs and ineffective park-and-ride. If people needs to get used to anything regarding public transport it is that is not only a perk given to the poor as charity. Sadly, that kind of mentality is very hard to beat by what you see when to take a tram or a bus in the US.
> 
> ...


20 m streetcar every 20 minutes still leaves much space to improve.


diz said:


> They need to make the Park and Rides tolled using the Hop Fastpass system. Pay $5 to park, but that same $5 goes to your Trimet/CTran ticket.


Fare agreements and tickets for a P&R are a good first step. But that is not enough. You need coverage, feeding and a patients to mantain good service for as long as it needs to change people behaviour. 


Khaul said:


> How many car spaces do you need to fill just a tram? How many do you need to fill trams running every 4 min in peak? A whole lot of them, taking a huge amount of space around stations that would have a better use as apartment towers with shops and offices in the ground floor. You could have such high density development to at least 500m from the stop.


Basically? More or less 85-130 parking spots per one streetcar and between 110 and 180 per one LRV. I tried to find how much people ride one car average, but I was not able to find such data on DoT website.


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## Khaul (Sep 8, 2009)

A 20min headway is quite useless for most purposes. If I have to wait 20min for a 10min ride in a terribly slow streetcar I would prefer walking. Well, if there is a sidewalk and I won’t be breathing noxious car fumes all the way.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Khaul said:


> A 20min headway is quite useless for most purposes. If I have to wait 20min for a 10min ride in a terribly slow streetcar I would prefer walking. Well, if there is a sidewalk and I won’t be breathing noxious car fumes all the way.


This is true. I've encountered this numerous times after taking the MAX from the westside and I need to get to the Central Eastside. Imagine getting off at the Library MAX station, then missing the Loop streetcar because they are poorly timed. The next train is in 20 minutes, but also take into account how long it takes for the streetcar to run that loop to the opposite side. Literally faster to just walk the few blocks and over the bridge.


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

diz said:


> This is true. I've encountered this numerous times after taking the MAX from the westside and I need to get to the Central Eastside. Imagine getting off at the Library MAX station, then missing the Loop streetcar because they are poorly timed. The next train is in 20 minutes, but also take into account how long it takes for the streetcar to run that loop to the opposite side. Literally faster to just walk the few blocks and over the bridge.


Well, this is at least something that won't be the case for much longer, what with the fleet expansion that Portland is committing to. The new extensions planned will also further boost frequency on the existing network, if they go through.


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## Khaul (Sep 8, 2009)

FDW said:


> Well, this is at least something that won't be the case for much longer, what with the fleet expansion that Portland is committing to. The new extensions planned will also further boost frequency on the existing network, if they go through.


10min headways by 2025 if everything goes well... 

In a different note, How far apart are the streetcar stops? It looks like there are 31 stops in the B Loop, which is 4.4 miles long. Trams are scheduled to run a loop in 58min, right? That is excruciatingly slow. If the stops were 500m apart the furthest anyone along the loop is form a stop is a mere 250m (820ft or a 2-3min walk). Another thing, is there any kind of priority for streetcars at traffic lights?


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## dysharmonica (Dec 3, 2015)

Portland needs serious investment in converting MAX in the center into a fast, convenient transit fit for 21st century. MAX and MUNI have some of the worst operational designs in the world with the double stops for people needing the handicap ramp, suuuuuper slow runs and frequents stops. 

Portland also needs to finally organize arount scheduled transfers between the tram and MAX there is no excuse for this epsecially because it is basically free. 

MAX extensions further and further into the suburbs will be all loss leaders if MAX continues to be a slow, poorly performing 'old style' light rail. There are many options .. some are pricy, others inconvenience drives, but it's time. Overdue, really.


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

Khaul said:


> 10min headways by 2025 if everything goes well...
> 
> In a different note, How far apart are the streetcar stops? It looks like there are 31 stops in the B Loop, which is 4.4 miles long. Trams are scheduled to run a loop in 58min, right? That is excruciatingly slow. If the stops were 500m apart the furthest anyone along the loop is form a stop is a mere 250m (820ft or a 2-3min walk). Another thing, is there any kind of priority for streetcars at traffic lights?


Well, at least 5 minutes on Core Downtown segment, and maybe more elsewhere depending on how the next extensions shake things up.

Stop distance is about every 3 blocks, or 180m. About the average for American Transit agencies.

The Streetcar doesn't have signal priority, or even it's own RoW. Mind you, Portlands plans don't have the Streetcars venturing too far out, with the extant bus lines that they parallel becoming Limited-Stop routes.



dysharmonica said:


> Portland needs serious investment in converting MAX in the center into a fast, convenient transit fit for 21st century. MAX and MUNI have some of the worst operational designs in the world with the double stops for people needing the handicap ramp, suuuuuper slow runs and frequents stops.
> 
> Portland also needs to finally organize arount scheduled transfers between the tram and MAX there is no excuse for this epsecially because it is basically free.
> 
> MAX extensions further and further into the suburbs will be all loss leaders if MAX continues to be a slow, poorly performing 'old style' light rail. There are many options .. some are pricy, others inconvenience drives, but it's time. Overdue, really.


MAX needs to run frequent enough service that they don't need to bother with schedules, 15 minutes is not enough freedom anymore. I agree with you on no more Suburban expansions, with the exception of Powell-Foster.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

Khaul said:


> ^^ Nah, they already think they have the best system this side of the Milky Way.
> 
> Now, seriously, increasing ridership in modern American light rail systems (very low by any standards) hinges on changes in planning to allow transforming urban form. In most places light rail comes with a combination of tokenistic but highly trumpeted TODs and ineffective park-and-ride. If people needs to get used to anything regarding public transport it is that is not only a perk given to the poor as charity. Sadly, that kind of mentality is very hard to beat by what you see when to take a tram or a bus in the US.


This is very true and gets to the crux matter. Outside of NYC there is not a single transit system in the US that comes even close to ridership levels in similarly sized Canadian cities. Yes Canadian systems always provide far superior service and frequency and are safe and clean which makes them more inviting but the biggest hurdle which American transit systems have to contend with is the societal views...………...in the US, transit is viewed as a SOCIAL service while on the rest of the planet it is viewed as an ESSENTIAL one.

Americans are also highly individualistic and love their personal freedom and space and the car epitomizes that mentality while public transit is the antithesis of the American dream and lifestyle. Transit agencies and urban planners have an uphill battle trying to convince Americans to hop on board because they not only have to provide a superior service but also have to change society's values.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

aquaticko said:


> Couldn't they just reallocate trains from the Red to Blue, or buy another trainset or two? Couldn't they just time arrivals at Beaveron TC so that transferring between the two lines is always possible?


Other than buying 4 new light rail cars and a few changes at Fair Complex/Hillsboro Airport station, there's not much to the Red Line western extension.

The Fair Complex/Hillsboro Airport station upgrades are relatively benign: "Crews are working on signals and switches in the existing trackway, and building a new walkway and break facility for MAX operators."









A Better Red


We’re making plans to extend and improve MAX Red Line service to provide better connections and a more reliable ride.



trimet.org


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Pioneer Courthouse & Trimet Max Train by Orbmiser, on Flickr


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

TriMet Lightrail Max by Orbmiser, on Flickr


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Pearl Streetcar S.W. 10th by Orbmiser, on Flickr


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

TriMet Streetcar Garage by Orbmiser, on Flickr


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

TriMet starts driver training on super-sized buses along Division Street


This week, people will see TriMet’s new FX buses traveling on Division Street between Downtown Portland and Gresham as operator training begins.



www.opb.org


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

I-5 project leaders pick light rail as transit option for Columbia crossing – BikePortland







bikeportland.org


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## LAmarODom420 (Aug 14, 2007)

diz said:


> I-5 project leaders pick light rail as transit option for Columbia crossing – BikePortland
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any idea when this might get built?


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

LAmarODom420 said:


> Any idea when this might get built?


No where near there yet. Hasn't even gone though federally-required environmental reviews.

Interstate Bridge committee to vote on bridge design; proposal includes light rail and more lanes


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

TriMet checks off Frequent Express “to do” list with one month until new service starts - TriMet News


A first-of-its-kind for TriMet, FX2-Division begins service on Sunday, Sept. 18 On Sunday, Sept. 18, TriMet will start something new: FX or Frequent Express bus service. FX is better bus service, with longer, bendy buses with more room for riders and improvements that will help keep buses out of...




news.trimet.org


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## Khaul (Sep 8, 2009)

diz said:


> TriMet checks off Frequent Express “to do” list with one month until new service starts - TriMet News
> 
> 
> A first-of-its-kind for TriMet, FX2-Division begins service on Sunday, Sept. 18 On Sunday, Sept. 18, TriMet will start something new: FX or Frequent Express bus service. FX is better bus service, with longer, bendy buses with more room for riders and improvements that will help keep buses out of...
> ...


What a horrible streetscape, and that’s model city Portland.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Khaul said:


> What a horrible streetscape, and that’s model city Portland.


Actually a huge improvement from what that area was before the Division Transit Project. Not many outsiders get to see the outskirts of Portland only the "model" city center, when in reality, this is what a lot of it looks like.


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## Khaul (Sep 8, 2009)

diz said:


> Actually a huge improvement from what that area was before the Division Transit Project. Not many outsiders get to see the outskirts of Portland only the "model" city center, when in reality, this is what a lot of it looks like.


Well, that happens everywhere. Not many people get to ever know the ugly outskirts of Rome, where most people live.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Taking a ride on TriMet's new FX line - BikePortland


TriMet has spent six years and about $175 million to establish a new kind of bus service on Southeast Division between downtown and Gresham. Now it’s finally time to see what this thing can do. The Division corridor has been the poster child for our region’s struggles with climate killing car...




bikeportland.org






TriMet FX - SE Division Transit Project-6.jpg by BikePortland, on Flickr


TriMet FX - SE Division Transit Project-1.jpg by BikePortland, on Flickr


TriMet FX - SE Division Transit Project-4.jpg by BikePortland, on Flickr


TriMet FX - SE Division Transit Project-10.jpg by BikePortland, on Flickr


TriMet FX - SE Division Transit Project-14.jpg by BikePortland, on Flickr


TriMet FX - SE Division Transit Project-11.jpg by BikePortland, on Flickr


TriMet FX - SE Division Transit Project-12.jpg by BikePortland, on Flickr


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Take a peek at the new FX2-Division TriMet bus before it debuts


Take a peek at the new FX2-Division TriMet bus before it debuts




www.oregonlive.com


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## MiaM (Jul 2, 2010)

TriMet FX - SE Division Transit Project-4.jpg by BikePortland, on Flickr
[/QUOTE]
Oh, wow, the bus shelter is on the wrong side of the bike lane. Every time a bus stops there will be a major conflict between buses and bikes.


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Portland’s New Bus Rapid Transit Line Is Many Things. But Is It Faster?







www.wweek.com


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

diz said:


> Actually a huge improvement from what that area was before the Division Transit Project. Not many outsiders get to see the outskirts of Portland only the "model" city center, when in reality, this is what a lot of it looks like.


It looks almost identical to SeaTac. I had to stay in a hotel near the airport because my flight got delayed to another day, and since I didn't have a car I had to walk a few blocks to find a Taco Bell. Giant roads, suburban sprawl, but surprisingly the RapidRide BRT made it that far south. And there was the Link light rail elevated line to Angle Lake station around the corner too.

Anyways, whatever that model of accordian bus is, they had those in Houston too. Except they weren't dedicated to a specific line, they were just in ordinary service on some of the busier routes and had the same livery as the other buses. I think they look nice, aesthetically speaking.


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## GojiMet86 (Jan 3, 2016)

zaphod said:


> It looks almost identical to SeaTac. I had to stay in a hotel near the airport because my flight got delayed to another day, and since I didn't have a car I had to walk a few blocks to find a Taco Bell. Giant roads, suburban sprawl, but surprisingly the RapidRide BRT made it that far south. And there was the Link light rail elevated line to Angle Lake station around the corner too.
> 
> Anyways, whatever that model of accordian bus is, they had those in Houston too. Except they weren't dedicated to a specific line, they were just in ordinary service on some of the busier routes and had the same livery as the other buses. I think they look nice, aesthetically speaking.


That is the Nova Bus LFSA. The shorter one is just the LFS.
The LFSA and the New Flyer, both Canadian, are basically the only articulated buses available (BYD trying to get into the market).


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

Max Station by Steven, on Flickr


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