# UNITED KINGDOM | High Speed Rail



## Andrew

UD2 said:


> After the embarrement that Changchun Train Works suffered in the past two days with the CRH5, I don't think anyone in China still have the guts to put any type of hardware into service without the most extensive testing.


Well if it means a higher quality product that can compete with Japanese, German and French technology on the grounds of cost effectiveness then that can only be a good thing. I imagine the Chinese product will be seen as the 'cheap option' compared with others for some time, but that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as they're reliable.

What exactly happened with the CRH5 by the way?


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## Trainman Dave

UD2 said:


> train is probabley on the paper already, if it goes on schedule it should go into testing sometime in early to mid 2009.
> 
> For it to be delivered on schedule, I don't believe the rollout is going to be anytime after october 2008.
> 
> After the embarrement that Changchun Train Works suffered in the past two days with the CRH5, I don't think anyone in China still have the guts to put any type of hardware into service without the most extensive testing.


Please don't leave us hanging, What happened with the CRH5?


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## Trainman Dave

Andrew said:


> Well if it means a higher quality product that can compete with Japanese, German and French technology on the grounds of cost effectiveness then that can only be a good thing. I imagine the Chinese product will be seen as the 'cheap option' compared with others for some time, but that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as they're reliable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No French technology yet!
> CRH1 is based on Swedish technology (now owned by Bombardier)
> CRH2 is based on Japanese technology (Kawasaki)
> CRH3 is based on German technology (Siemens)
> CRH5 is based on Italian technology (Fiat, although now owned by Alstom)
Click to expand...


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## Trainman Dave

The Grand Central Trains press annoucement is leaving out one important detail: are these trains diesel powered or dual powered electric and diesel? They cannot be pure electric trains as the route from Northallerton to Sunderland is not electrified but all the example shown on this thread are a electric trainsets. 

Finding out details of chinese trains is very frustrating but I cannot find any evidence that the Chinese are running any DMU's faster than 180 km/h. Can anyone site an example which runs faster?


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## pflo777

will the Shangai maglev also be classified as a "CRH" one day?


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## Trainman Dave

pflo777 said:


> will the Shangai maglev also be classified as a "CRH" one day?


Interesting question!
It depends who who owns the Maglev line and who owns the branding. I rather suspect that the province owns the Maglev and the Railways Administration owns the CRH brand. If this is true, the Maglev is unlikely to branded CRH.


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## Irish Blood English Heart

It said it is dual power, 140mph on the electric sections, dont know how fast on the Durham coast section though (but the line is old and crap there anyway).


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## Sen

pflo777 said:


> will the Shangai maglev also be classified as a "CRH" one day?


I think Shanghai maglev is owned by a public-private cooperation, so no it is indepdent of other systems, CRH is owned by China Railways which is under the jursidiction of Ministry of Railways.


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## UD2

the CRH5 wasn't delivered early enough to leave adaquite time for proper testing before it was thrown into service for the China rail network's 6th general speed increase. 

The trains malfucntioned on the first day of service and ended up breaking down while running on routes where a delay of as little as 1 minute is deemed unacceptable. 

Trains D27/28 that runs from Harbin to Beijing had so many problems that they had to cancel the entire route without any definate date for its restart. 

Out of the entire fleet of CRH5s, there wasn't a single train that didn't experience delays caused by malfunctions.

CRH1 and CRH2 were also apart of this speed increase, and they ran without much problems or delays.


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## UD2

Trainman Dave said:


> The Grand Central Trains press annoucement is leaving out one important detail: are these trains diesel powered or dual powered electric and diesel? They cannot be pure electric trains as the route from Northallerton to Sunderland is not electrified but all the example shown on this thread are a electric trainsets.
> 
> Finding out details of chinese trains is very frustrating but I cannot find any evidence that the Chinese are running any DMU's faster than 180 km/h. Can anyone site an example which runs faster?


The anwser is no, China does not have any examples of Diesel Moving Units that travels faster than 180km/h. 

Infact, these are the only two examples of DMUs that do run in China. And within the two, only the Shenzhou that runs the current Beijing - Tianjin rapid service should be considred as a true moving unit. The other one is basically two regular DF11 diesel locomotives reshaped to look like the end if a DMU and then stuck around a set of regular double decker carriages.

This is the Shenzhou, and it does look like the sketch for the Grand Central proposal











Another thing though, China isn't exactly concentrating on its diesel powered passanger service. Half of China's passanger traffic and all of its highspeed passanger service are electric. 

The most advanced diesel locomotive in service currently in China is the DF-11G, and it is used on overnight long distance non-stop express trains (what they call Z trains). And that is only rated at 170km/h. 

If the Grand central train is going to be diesel, then it could present a problem. Mostly because China have never seen a real high speed DMU.

DF-11G


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## Momo1435

^^
It probably is a diesel-electric multiple unit, so it won't be a problem for the Chinese to build something like this. They just have to build an electric powered train but to power it they have to put in a modern "low emission" diesel engine and a generator. They probably will buy such an engine from a dedicated European or American manufacturer, just like all the Western train manufacturers do.


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## Rational Plan

The Chinese manufacturers have a lot riding on this. Not only for the potential to win new orders on mainline serivices but the market for local and rural trains could be huge. 

Back in the 1980's a lot of rural services were replaced with 'Pacer' units which were noisey bus like DMU's typically made of of or two carraiges. A lot of these are approaching the end of their natural life. Several rail franchise owners said they might be interested in cheap chinese units that cost a third of European trains instead of relying on mix and match fleets made up of cascaded stock from busier routes.

If they do prove reliable then a new market could open up. Though we won't see whole sale replacement by one train type, as the train leasing companies will be intrested in maintaining residual values on their newer trains.


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## jrawle

When I was reading about this last week, this article in the FT contained by far the most information. Unfortunately, it's now more than a week old, so is restricted to subscribers:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/53cce700-ea...age=87ef6c98-3018-11da-ba9f-00000e2511c8.html


It actually mentioned two Chinese companies who are involved, but I can't remember them, sorry! For me, the significant point was it said one company was to make the power cars, while the other would make the unpowered carriages in between. That means it'll be a true replacement for the High Speed Train (HST, Intercity 125) with locomotives at either end, and _won't_ be a DMU, which to me means "diesel multiple unit", i.e. has a diesel engine in each carriage.

As a rail user, I hate DMUs. I'm lucky to live in an area served by HSTs to London and the Westcountry, and it makes me realise what a raw deal rail users are getting with the standard DMUs - noise, vibration, discomfort. Of course, all the government decision makers live in London or the south east, where they have nice, quiet, electric trains. I'm concerned that the so-called "Intercity Express Project" (IEP) the government recently tendered for as a replacement for the HST will end up as a DMU, so the announcement of the Chinese trains made me a bit more optimistic.

Other information I've gleaned about Grand Central's proposed trains is that they will be diesel powered (the line's not all electrified) but will have the "option" of upgrading to electric power later. The trains would be introduced from mid-2010, but only if Grand Central succeed in extending their five-year licence to run the service (which currently expires in 2011). Some sources also say the Chinese manufacturers have been keen to take a look at a HST, with the implication being that they plan to copy the design...


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## gaoanyu

^^Yeah, I agree that the electric ones are more comfortable than the DMUs, but DMU's sound more like trains, do they? Come to that, I really miss the steam locomotives..


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## jrawle

gaoanyu said:


> ^^Yeah, I agree that the electric ones are more comfortable than the DMUs, but DMU's sound more like trains, do they? Come to that, I really miss the steam locomotives..


They never had separate steam locomotives under each carriage. In a stream train, you have one loco at the front. From inside the carriages, it's dead quiet and smooth. It's only outside you can hear the sound of the engine. Exactly the same is true of the diesel HSTs - on the platform, it sounds like a jet taking off. In the carriages, you don't hear a thing. By contrast DMUs don't capture the spirit of the stream train at all - the ambiance is more like travelling on a bus!


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## zergcerebrates

UD2 said:


> the CRH5 wasn't delivered early enough to leave adaquite time for proper testing before it was thrown into service for the China rail network's 6th general speed increase.
> 
> The trains malfucntioned on the first day of service and ended up breaking down while running on routes where a delay of as little as 1 minute is deemed unacceptable.
> 
> Trains D27/28 that runs from Harbin to Beijing had so many problems that they had to cancel the entire route without any definate date for its restart.
> 
> Out of the entire fleet of CRH5s, there wasn't a single train that didn't experience delays caused by malfunctions.
> 
> CRH1 and CRH2 were also apart of this speed increase, and they ran without much problems or delays.



Wow thats surprising didnt know Alstom trains could have so much problems.


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## Coccodrillo

jrawle said:


> They never had separate steam locomotives under each carriage. In a stream train, you have one loco at the front. From inside the carriages, it's dead quiet and smooth. It's only outside you can hear the sound of the engine. Exactly the same is true of the diesel HSTs - on the platform, it sounds like a jet taking off. In the carriages, you don't hear a thing. By contrast DMUs don't capture the spirit of the stream train at all - the ambiance is more like travelling on a bus!


Some steam "DMU" have been built, I think at least in Germany and Switzerland.


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## Welshlad

ive been on some DMU's that are really quiet, arriva trains have them running manchester to carmarthen, they used to be called commonwealth cruisers. Also, arent voyagers classed as dmu's? they're quiet too


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## Trainman Dave

zergcerebrates said:


> Wow thats surprising didnt know Alstom trains could have so much problems.


These are not Alstom TGV's. They are modeled on the new ETR-600's which are the latest design from the Fiat railway division from Italy which was purchased by Alstom. They may infact be a victim of the Chinese desire to to meet a dead line for announcing the sixth railway speed up.


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## UD2

Bombardier and the Japanese met their deadlines, which are the same deadlines that Alstom had to meet.

The project wasn't forced up them, the companies bid for it and they all knew the deadlines. And the Chinese didn't ask for the latest design, the CRH1 is a very close cousin of the Bombardier Regina and the CRH2 basicaly a Japanese E2 with a Chinese style train hook and power collecter. 

The only victums here are the poor guys in the Railway Department who are going to be sacked for something that is not really their fault.

Alstom (divisions) have had a history of missing their deadlines in China. One of Shanghai's subway lines (forgot which, there's only one that uses Alstom trains) was delayed opening for two years because the trains weren't ready.

And the Alstom subway trains running in China has always had problems with its doors, a problem that the CRH5 shared.


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## FML

The reason Shinkansen uses new dedicated tracks for all the journey, is indeed because Japan uses narrow gauge for ordinary lines. They had no choice.
TGV, on the other hand, uses both new tracks and old tracks, and its flexibility is indeed an advantage for the network. JR East learned from the idea and started their "Mini-Shinkansen" services, Shinkansen that goes through (gauge widened) ordinary lines.

The fact TGV uses shared tracks, however, can be a damage as well. It can not fully utilize its dedicated tracks. That is, it can handle much less amount of passengers than Shinkansen, a line fully comprised of dedicated tracks. (This is also because TGV uses the trains with smaller capacity, since they go through ordinary lines, and also because it uses push-pull cars with lower acceleration compared with EMUs.) TGV's busiest section, between Paris and Lyon, transports 48,000 passengers a day, while Tokaido Shinkansen transports 356,000 passengers a day,

I'm not saying Shinkansen is whole better than TGV, though. The two are simply very different systems. TGV can't handle the traffic Shinkansen can, but then again, TGV doesn't need to. TGV is faster and cheaper, while Shinkansen is busier and quieter (the latter is important in the mountainous islands with very high population density on habitable area). They excel in different points, being suitable in different environments.

Oh, but anyway, this Class 395 is not based on Shinkansen. Sorry for being off topic.


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## Augusto

33Hz said:


> Eurostars also use the HS1. Gauge has nothing to do with this conversation and is an issue only in Japan.


Gauge not but the wideness of the trains may be interesting here. The Eurostar are narrower than the continental trains because they had to deal with the old tracks in UK. But If I'm not wrong the new HS route respects the continental standards. So could we imagine in the future wider and double-decker Eurostar like the TGV Duplex between Paris and London?


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## 33Hz

Sure, there is no technical reason why a TGV Duplex could not come to London this year - the only thing stopping it after November will be the Channel Tunnel fire regulations, which the Eurostar complies with of course. However, the traffic levels on Eurostar are not high enough (yet) to need "Eurostar Duplex" trains.


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## [email protected]

The first vehicle which came to Europe from Japan is incorrect. 
From old days, it is exported to U.S.A., the U.K., Ireland, others. 
Kawasaki, Hitachi produce it. 
The half of the share of the subway of NYC is a Japanese vehicle.


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## superchan7

That train looks like the Virgin train.


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## hkskyline

*National Railway Museum - York, England*

The *National Railway Museum* is the world's largest of its kind. 














































Was a bit surprised to see a bullet train here as well!































































































































A railway museum will not be complete without models.




























Old signage



















This display gallery has so many items to see. If I wanted to research something I could be in there all day!














































That day, I went from Glasgow to York, and ultimately bound for London in the evening.


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## Irish Blood English Heart

Its free too, I last went in 2001 and was dissapointed to see it had hardly changed since the early 90s when I'd last went though.


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## RawLee

We have a similar museum,its called "Vasúttörténeti Park"(Railroad history museum).





















































And here is a page,which is related to this museum, from a transportation blog:
http://hampage.hu/trams/fusti050918/


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## trainrover

Hmmmm, I really oughtta've made it there during their recent big anniversary year . . .


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## trainrover

TRZ said:


> the TGV hurts itself by piggybacking on existing shared infrastructure since it hampers the competitiveness of the service by handicapping the rolling stock from running at its full capability.


It would appear you fail to recognize the differences in population densities between those two nations overseas, never mind their differences at how they develop. The French 'handicap' I think amounts to a type of super swift travel package you refuse to recognize. Besides, maybe there's some kind of French law prohibiting swift running in town, being the lone type of setting where 'it fouls' infrastructure.

I wish the buyers had some hand in choosing the looks of the new incoming electric fleet announced here (I'd bet they used to do handsomely back in the day). UK could really do a good job, I think, at choosing for themselves something purely distinctive for the whole country (and then some).


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## Justme

Amazing. I really have to go there one day. When you say "largest of it's kind in the world", what kind do you mean?


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## phubben

Does anyone know if this is a tilting train?


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## CharlieP

phubben said:


> Does anyone know if this is a tilting train?


No need for it to be - it's going to run at 225km/h on the dedicated high-speed track, and at the same speed (160km/h?) as local services on the older track in Kent.


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## elfabyanos

CharlieP said:


> No need for it to be - it's going to run at 225km/h on the dedicated high-speed track, and at the same speed (160km/h?) as local services on the older track in Kent.


The speed on local tracks is approx 60 - 80 mph Ashford to Ramsgate, a little higher on sections Ashford to Dover and along the coast. Out of interest Ashford to Tonbridge is max 100mph, but it is the longest dead straight section of railway in the uk. Generally, past Ashford the trains will stop loads so high speed is not the aim in this area, but passenger collection.


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## elfabyanos

TRZ said:


> TGV may very well have a superior rolling stock. That is important, obviously, but the TGV hurts itself by piggybacking on existing shared infrastructure since it hampers the competitiveness of the service by handicapping the rolling stock from running at its full capability.


Your information is incorrect. TGVs operate on dedicated tracks north out of Paris (TGV Nord) as far as belgium and the channel tunnel, south out of Paris as far as the south coast and the cote d'azur (TGV Lyon/Mediterranee) and south east out of Paris for a 100 miles or so (TGV Atlantique). Currently near completion is a line to Strasbourg (TGV Est) due eventually to go all the way to the German border. They share infrastructure with slower vehicles over ever decreasing distances, are not handicapped in any way. If you were to take a TGV from Lille to Marseille you would travel 700 miles on deicated high speed line at 300mph. Apart from stock currently operating Est services (in advance of TGV-Est opening) all TGV stock runs at full capability for some, if not most of the distance of it's journey.


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## trainrover

(Wow, congratulations, Europe, on your two-hour-15-minute link between London and Paris -- WOW {my envy can't cease growing . . . }!)


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## hkskyline

I've read that it's the largest railway museum in the world.


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## Momo1435

zergcerebrates said:


> This is so strange. I believe this is one of the first Asian trains to set foot in Europe?


late reply, no it's not.

Spain has some licensed electric locos and Korean manufacturer Rotem has build some trains/metros for Greece and Turkey.


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## 33Hz

elfabyanos said:


> Your information is incorrect. TGVs operate on dedicated tracks north out of Paris (TGV Nord) as far as belgium and the channel tunnel, south out of Paris as far as the south coast and the cote d'azur (TGV Lyon/Mediterranee) and south east out of Paris for a 100 miles or so (TGV Atlantique).


South West



elfabyanos said:


> Currently near completion is a line to Strasbourg (TGV Est) due eventually to go all the way to the German border. They share infrastructure with slower vehicles over ever decreasing distances, are not handicapped in any way. Apart from stock currently operating Est services (in advance of TGV-Est opening) all TGV stock runs at full capability for some, if not most of the distance of it's journey.


TGV Est opened June 10th



elfabyanos said:


> If you were to take a TGV from Lille to Marseille you would travel 700 miles on deicated high speed line at 300mph.


300km/h - and in parts 320km/h


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## elfabyanos

33Hz said:


> South West


Wasn't concentrating!


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## GNU

Good that theyre getting rid of it.
Itll create a nice square in front of the station

Do you know whether theyll do anything to the King's Cross Thameslink station aswell?


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## iampuking

King's Cross Thameslink won't be used from December as Thameslink trains are going from a new station under St Pancras. The future of the old station is undecided, but it may be converted into another entrance to King's Cross Tube station.


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## GNU

Right, thx.


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## eomer

Regular services between Paris-Nord, Bruxelles-Midi and London-St Pancrass _should_ start on 17th november...but SNCF workers will start a no-limit strike on 14th november.
Strike is a national sport...


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## Euklidisk

"The proposed routes would use eight times less land and half the vehicle fleet than conventional high-speed trains, it is claimed."

Eight times?
Maglev 10 m and wheel-HSR 80 m wide? Or what?


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## iampuking

What is the strike over?


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## eomer

Euklidisk said:


> "The proposed routes would use eight times less land and half the vehicle fleet than conventional high-speed trains it is claimed."
> 
> Eight times?
> Maglev 10 m and wheel-HSR 80 m wide? Or what?


The autor considers that a Maglev system like Transrapid use an elevated track over the ground: so, it use less land. But for poeple who live here, there is no real difference. The big problem about maglev systems is the weather: wind and rain could make to vehicule go slower than expected.

If you reach 500 km/h, the main problem is the air resistance: a magnetic system must use more energy to keep is speed when an HSR can use inertia.
There are two way to reduce air resistance: climbing over 6 000 m (it's what we do everyday with planes) or using a tunnel like Swissmetro project...but the costs are awfull.


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## iampuking

Let us not forget the noise such a vehicle makes at that speed...

This is from a layman's perspective, but does anyone know if there are any health risks associated from living near a maglev track? A bit like with electricity pylons?


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## asif iqbal

I think it would be better to first get our current railway system running efficeintly rather than going for maglev i mean this must be a joke right. I took me nearly 9 hours to get from east coast of scotland to manchester never again will i be making that journey by train.


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## pflo777

> If you reach 500 km/h, the main problem is the air resistance: a magnetic system must use more energy to keep is speed when an HSR can use inertia.



This is all pure speculation.
The Transrapid Maglev can use inertia as well, and they also tested it.
Furthermore they also tested the system with running speeds around 420 kmh in Emsland-Germany during snow, heavy rain and heavy wind. 
And its running fine.

Furthermore, the air resistance is bigger, yes, but the aerodynamics of a maglev vehicle is much better, as you have a train body, that can be designed only considering the aerodynamic drag, while a concentional train needs wheels,bogies and pantographs.


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## TRZ

pflo777 said:


> Furthermore, the air resistance is bigger, yes, but the aerodynamics of a maglev vehicle is much better, as you have a train body, that can be designed only considering the aerodynamic drag, while a concentional train needs wheels,bogies and pantographs.


Just one slight note - maglevs have bogies (as that's what the magnets are attached to it), but they meld with the body in a near-seamless way. The end result is pretty much as you explain though


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## iampuking

asif iqbal said:


> I think it would be better to first get our current railway system running efficeintly rather than going for maglev i mean this must be a joke right. I took me nearly 9 hours to get from east coast of scotland to manchester never again will i be making that journey by train.


Firstly, can you use some punctuation? It's there for a reason.

Secondly, why are you basing one negative example as an indication of the rest of the network?


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## Jaeger

GNU said:


> Good that theyre getting rid of it.
> Itll create a nice square in front of the station
> 
> Do you know whether theyll do anything to the King's Cross Thameslink station aswell?


The Thameslink Station is being replaced by a new station under St Pancras due to open next month.


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## Xusein

Cool. St. Pancras is a beautiful station, it's a nice way to get into Britain in style.


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## asif iqbal

iampuking said:


> Firstly, can you use some punctuation? It's there for a reason.
> 
> Secondly, why are you basing one negative example as an indication of the rest of the network?


What is wrong with my ppppunctuatiooon? 

It was my experience so i thought i would share it with everyone else! clearly u must be one of the train company owners right either that or u are very insensitive about UK trains!


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## elfabyanos

They should build buidings on elevated stilts, then they wouldn't use up so much land.:hilarious


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## Tri-ring

iampuking said:


> Let us not forget the noise such a vehicle makes at that speed...
> 
> This is from a layman's perspective, but does anyone know if there are any health risks associated from living near a maglev track? A bit like with electricity pylons?


Not much from what I have heard for Transrapid system.
About the same as a celluar phone.

The Japanese system generates a much higher electro-magnetic field but again it is still in the testing stage and shielding will probably be made mandatory in construction of tracks.


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## hkskyline

*Meet me at St Pancras *
St Pancras subheading heady hedy heading heading 
Mark Palmer hails a reborn landmark: not just a station, more the place to be 
10 November 2007
The Daily Telegraph

'Look, look,'' says the hard-hatted man from London & Continental Railways, "Here it comes. Now isn't that an undeniably impressive sight?'' Well, yes, it's not bad as dress rehearsals go: the new High Speed 1 Eurostar sliding into St Pancras and coming to a halt a few paces from Paul Day's nine-metre high sculpture of a young couple embracing under the huge replica Dent clock at the end of the concourse. 

On Tuesday, the Queen stood on this same platform to formally open the station. Next Wednesday, it will be all systems go as the new service's trains start to ping-pong back and forth in little more than two hours between Paris and London, just under two hours between London and Brussels and a mere 90 minutes between London and Lille. 

Will the station mark the beginning of a new golden age of travel? St Pancras is already being compared with New York's Grand Central, one of the world's most romantic meeting places (think Cary Grant in North by Northwest). Not so much a train station from where you begin or end a journey, but a destination in itself. "Meet me at St Pancras'' has a certain ring to it, a call to romantics everywhere. 

And, like Grand Central, with its Oyster Bar and gourmet food market, there will be plenty on offer for hungry lovers. I can't wait to see the expression on the faces of a certain kind of French man or woman as they disembark in London feeling peckish. For the first time at a station in this country, they'll be spoilt for choice. 

Some may choke on their prejudices as they see waiters and waitresses scurrying about with trays of food. One or two might need to pinch themselves. And where better to do so than at the world's longest Champagne bar, which runs almost the entire length of the station, behind a glass partition on Platform One. Here, they can perch and observe the "fine dining'' restaurant operated by Searcy, where there will also be a bar, a bistro and a private room. 

Some new arrivals might be tempted to head for the Betjeman Arms, a gastro pub operated by trendy Geronimo Inns on the south-east corner of William Henry Barlow's wondrous, and wondrously restored, engine shed. The menu should make them feel at home. It will be a radical departure from normal train station fare in Britain. That means chopped steak tartare, eggs Benedict, potted shrimp and wild mushrooms on toast for starters, followed by a choice of smoked haddock with poached egg and hollandaise, grilled rib-eye steak with lots of Béarnaise, roast cod sitting on white beans and chorizo, linguine with clams and so on. 

To follow? The visitors from France could do worse than pop downstairs for a browse around the farmers' market modelled on the now iconic Borough Market near London Bridge. It's not clear how often the market will be held, but stand by for oysters from Whitstable, lamb from Herefordshire and tomatoes from the Isle of Wight. On certain days, a string quartet will add some mood music for shoppers and travellers alike. There will be space for art, street performers, banks of computer terminals, flower stalls and shops of every hue. 

It all so nearly wasn't to be. Not long ago, bulldozers were parked on the forecourt outside the Midland Grand Hotel, ready to destroy what is now regarded as the greatest monument of the Gothic Revival in Britain. 

In 1966, the year England were victorious in the World Cup, the nationalised British Railways were admitting defeat over what to do with both Barlow's station and George Gilbert Scott's 300-room hotel, which was more or less abandoned after 1935. Built in 1873, Scott's masterpiece (the first to have lifts, or "ascending rooms'', and a famous Ladies' Smoking Room) benefited from the finest materials, but was short of bathrooms. Then it became short of guests - and woefully short of admirers. 

"It's a miracle that the building is still there at all,'' says Simon Thurley, chief executive of English Heritage. "It became a target for those who hated Victorian architecture and could very easily have been replaced with a squat box, like the one at Euston station. 

"The story of St Pancras is a lesson to us all. It gives a lie to the idea that you have to choose between old and new. These great buildings are remarkably flexible and are crying out to be used. We owe a huge debt to those who stood up and rescued St Pancras in the 1960s.'' 

No one stood taller than Sir John Betjeman, the late poet laureate, even though at one point he seemed resigned to defeat when describing the building as "too beautiful and too romantic to survive''. Then the cavalry arrived in the form of the Victorian Society, then led by Nikolaus Pevsner. Betjeman rallied, urging the nation to admire "that cluster of towers and pinnacles seen from Pentonville Hill and outlined against a foggy sunset, and the great arc of the train shed, gaping to devour the incoming engines''. 

A year later, St Pancras was Grade 1 listed, elevating it to the same status as Canterbury Cathedral and Windsor Castle. A specially commissioned statue of Betjeman by Martin Jennings, complete with trademark trilby, now stands at the top of one of four large slots cut through Barlow's platform deck, allowing natural light to flood into the undercroft for the first time (with 18,000 new panes of glass in the roof, it's the first time for more than 100 years that light of any kind has been seen at the station) and giving access from one floor to the other for passengers and the visiting public. 

Ah, the visiting public - the crucial unknown component in this pounds 800 million equation and a good reason why you won't find a Burger King, a McDonald's or an Upper Crust anywhere in this steel and glass-ceiling architectural cathedral. 

"We will know we've been successful when people start coming to St Pancras and have no intention of catching a train,'' says Mike Luddy, project director for London & Continental Railways, the company responsible for the new Channel Tunnel rail link. "That's why, in addition to the quality of the retail outlets, we will have four times more staff per customer than any other station, and why the cleaning contract will be similar to that you would draw up for an indoor shopping centre. To say we are raising the bar is an understatement.'' 

Let's not forget that some 50 million people a year will use the station in one form or another. It's not really one station, but four converging stations: Eurostar, Midland Mainline, First Capital Connect (formerly Thameslink) and King's Cross St Pancras underground (London's busiest tube station), with the high-speed Kent commuter service set to join the party in 2009. 

All 67 retail outlets have been filled. On the upper floor, directly under Barlow's roof (the largest single span structure in the world when it opened in 1868 and still the tallest and widest train shed in the country), will be the Betjeman Arms, a branch of Carluccio's, the 1868 Champagne Bar and Searcy's restaurant and brasserie. Further north, there's a West Cornwall Pasty shop and the Camden Food deli. 

At one point, it looked as if Caprice Holdings (The Ivy, Scott's, the Caprice) would win the contract for the station's main restaurant. Then the Galvin brothers (Galvin at Windows) came in with a bid, before Searcy persuaded Luddy and others that their experience at the Royal Opera House, the Barbican and the National Portrait Gallery would be useful at St Pancras. 

At the front of the station, the hotel, which appeared in both the Spice Girls' first video, Wannabe, and in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, will be operated by the Marriott group. When it opens in 2009, it will have 245 rooms, a spa, ballroom and some 70 apartments managed jointly with the Manhattan Loft Corporation.

Take the stairs or lift (if approaching from street level, you will walk through magnificent double oak doors with old brass fixtures and fittings) to the undercroft and this is where you check in for the Eurostar. The cedar wood floor is thought to be the quietest possible wood floor that can stand up to constant traffic. 

The undercroft once stored barrels of beer. In fact, Barlow said that the "length of a beer barrel became the unit of measure upon which all the arrangements of this floor were based''. Barlow's 850 columns, which allowed the platforms to be constructed 18 feet above street level (each column able to withstand 55 tons in weight) have been gloriously preserved. They give the shops (which all have screens that show the train times) a gravitas they would not normally get in a shopping arcade. 

The biggest unit, Marks & Spencer apart, will be occupied by Foyles bookshop, a symbol for everything the new St Pancras is about - lingering, browsing and, as Thurley puts it, "just feeling privileged to be standing in a building that's like no other on Earth''. 

Thomas Pink, LK Bennett, Monsoon, La Senza, Oliver Bonas, Neal's Yard Remedies, Hamleys - the list goes on. The closer you walk to the Midland Mainline trains the more you will notice familiar high street names: M&S Simply Food, Pret a Manger, Caffè Nero, Le Pain Quotidien, Starbucks, Yo! Sushi. 

These 21st-century grazing grounds will not stand the test of time like St Pancras. Indeed, some traditionalists might struggle with the idea that workers have unearthed 7,000 bodies from the ground just north of the station during the project, even though all have been carefully identified and reinterred in East Finchley cemetery. Yet the words of the historian Jack Simmonds still seem appropriate today and will be felt more keenly than ever as St Pancras once more becomes a living national landmark: 

"The station distils the very essence of mid-Victorian power: for it is the most magnificent commercial building of the age, reflecting more completely than any other its economic achievement, its triumphant technology, its assurance and pride, suffused by romance.'' 

* The Dent clock was sold to an American for pounds 250 in the 1970s, but workmen dropped it during its removal. An engine driver named Roland Hoggard bagged up the bits, which were crucial in making an exact replica. Hoggard, now 91, was at the station's opening ceremony. 

* The restoration used more than 16 million new bricks, all designed to look exactly like the old ones. 

* 300,000 Welsh slates, from the same Ffestiniog quarry that produced the original ones, have been installed. 

* 8,000 jobs were created during the construction. 

* 18,000 individual panes of self-cleaning glass have been used to form the new roof. 

* 18 layers of paint were removed to reveal the original "Barlow Blue'' colour (some 20,000 litres of paint were used). 

* 13 listed buildings were moved during construction. 

* 190,000 miles of cable have been fitted. 

* More than 1 million trees were planted during construction. 

* It took 50 million man-hours to complete the project. 

* Eurostar trains are the fastest (almost 200 mph) in the UK. The Hitachi "bullet trains'' will be the fastest (140mph) domestic trains in the UK. 

* 1,000 bottles of Champagne were put on ice for the official re-opening by the Queen last Tuesday. 

PLATFORM CHANGES 

* Best place to meet 
The foot of the 20-ton, pounds 1 million statue by Paul Day called, appropriately, The Meeting Place 

* Best place to drink 
The Betjeman Arms, with more than 30 foreign beers and plenty of British real ale 

* Best place to eat 
Searcy's private dining-room at the west of the station. There's space for up to 18 

* Best place to people-watch 
The 1868 Champagne bar beside Platform One 

* Best place to buy books 
Foyles (and be sure to look out for the oak doors and slate floor) 

* Best place to show off your French 
Crepe-affaire 

* Best place to buy chocolates 
Neuhaus Chocolates in the undercroft 

* Best place for a birthday card 
Paperchase 

* Best place for toys 
Hamleys 

* Best place for sexy underwear 
La Senza


----------



## iampuking

Now... Can the rest of our rail network please be like this?


----------



## theworldshallcry

Maglev is significantly more energy-efficient than conventional HSR, and maintenance costs are much lower. Weighing the two options is akin to comparing nuclear power's capital expenditure with gas power's operational costs.


----------



## Jaeger

Great pics sweek kay:


----------



## TRZ

elfabyanos said:


> China is not a good comparison for construction costs. Labour is cheap and planning is easy.


I'd have to agree strongly on this one. $60-90M/km is what I've heard for other estimates in the west and Japan (60 for Germany, 90 for Japan's Linimo).


----------



## MetroGuardian

pflo777 said:


> the Iraq war costed the US some estimated 1600 billion $.
> 
> 800 billion $ officially and senate approved, and furhter 800 billion $ of costs, that came out of the rising oil price and all other unexpected consequences.
> 
> Taking the price for the Shanghai maglev of 25mio$ per kilometer, you would get 32 000 km of 500kmh maglev line for 800 billion $
> With that ammount of maglev lines you would be abe to criss cross all of northern america, even the smallest vilage in Montana could get a maglev access....



Sure, but everything seems cheap compared to the cost of war. And a maglev will not appeal as a first priority to many people. There is health-care, education, environment that can more easily get a huge chunk of the money and maybe more reasonably so. Last but not least the excess expenditures to cover war-costs may never happen again after the end of it. The country and taxpayers need a relief. Not paying and paying for ever.


----------



## pflo777

official website says:


----------



## theworldshallcry

MetroGardian said:


> Sure, but everything seems cheap compared to the cost of war. And a maglev will not appeal as a first priority to many people.


That is part of the problem right there: psychology. It's like when a husband spends all the family savings on a new BMW, and tells his wife _afterwards._ Similarly, the Iraq occupation is an _unnecessary_ "war" where the funds could've gone to so many other places. Another problem is that infrastructure is not sexy. People would rather have taxcuts or handouts rather than construction because, by nature, the majority of people stink at grasping the big picture.

Last of all, maglev is not necessarily more expensive than conventional HSR. Operating costs are significantly lower due to the lack of mechanical wear.


----------



## pflo777

> Another problem is that infrastructure is not sexy. People would rather have taxcuts or handouts rather than construction because, by nature, the majority of people stink at grasping the big picture.


IMO thats the biggest problem for big infrastrucutre investements in the US ( what maglev definately is...)

But if you take a look at europe or Asia, especially at Japan, and also what is being constructed in China right now, Infrastrucutre is one of the most "sexy" things, a nation can build.

Good highways, railways, huge bridges and perfectly clean, modern and convenient subway systems are a sign of realy modern civilisation...


----------



## MetroGuardian

The official website will obviously back up their product. Currently, any maglev is overly expensive. And since they are incompatible with the rest of the network this makes them a very difficult investment. This is a network product and protocol, so compatibilty means a lot. There is huge capital invested in the current railway infrastructure and the surrounding operations. This means big political pressure as well from large and established companies (though Transrapid belongs to SIEMENS and Thyssenkrupp and that certainly helps). So, if maglev doesn't become really cost competitive it will hardly get any portion of the pie. 

The Shanghai maglev, built by Transrapid, cost 1.33bil$ (so let's say ~1bill€ back then). This is over 33mill€/km. The current ridership just covers the operating cost and not capital expenditures.

And I would expect the construction costs to be really higher in Germany rather than in China.


----------



## TRZ

MetroGardian said:


> And I would expect the construction costs to be really higher in Germany rather than in China.


It is about double based on the Munich Airport proposal.


----------



## elfabyanos

The DfT have officially disregarded Maglev anyway, citing that the proponents of such a system underestimate the risks involved.



pflo777 said:


>


The fundemental problem with this comparison is this:


For the recent Cologne - Frankfurt line, where do the trains actually go?










It connects high speed trains from Essen/Dortmund to many other places. It also connects to the French LGV Est. To provide these services minimal work is required to get the trains into the center of the cities - the lines already exist.

If Maglev wants to replace the current railway, whatever absurd facts and figures the Maglev industry come up with, it is simply 150 years too late.


----------



## asif iqbal

iampuking said:


> I have a life, thanks for your concern. Your mistakes were so obvious and numerous that they could be spotted within a millisecond


No problem thanks for your compliment 





elfabyanos said:


> Why would you request an explanation of your mistakes then? You should have admitted your mistakes in the first place, not requested an explanation so that you could use the _fact_ that someone has responded to your request for an explanation as an opportunity to diss them. That's quite sneaky.


And you poking your nose into others business is also god damn sneaky. This suggest you maybe suffer from the same disease as your freind so the question is do YOU have a life well do you punk?


----------



## elfabyanos

^^

"others business" [sic], what, on a public forum? In plain view of everyone? Call me a punk again, I kinda liked it.


----------



## asif iqbal

ive been watching the documentry on bbc yesterday the £800 railway project just shows how much hard work there was in this project nice station!


----------



## Jaeger

> A small revolution has also swept across Europe's sleeper trains. Deutsche Bahn (German Railways) has successfully revamped its overnight services as "city night line", with new sleeping cars offering hotel-style accommodation as well as couchettes and reclining seats. With online sales and competitive pricing, they've made these trains viable on many longer-distance routes where even high-speed trains are unable to compete with air on journey time. Indeed, an expansion is planned for December, with sleeper trains from Germany to Prague, Copenhagen, Warsaw, Milan and Vienna extended to start in Amsterdam, plus several new routes. Spain has developed its own "trainhotel" concept, both on domestic routes such as Barcelona-Seville and international ones such as Barcelona and Madrid to Paris, and Barcelona to Milan and Zurich. The concept has proved successful, and more "trainhotel" trainsets are on order to replace the remaining classic sleeper trains.


kay:


----------



## Jaeger

Latest Eurostar TV Advert - UK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubVCouY2bqc


----------



## iampuking

Cheesy. But I like it :lol:


----------



## Jaeger




----------



## GNU

Jaeger said:


> Hopefully the future will see direct Sleeper Trains from St Pancras to a host of European Destinations. At present you have to change at Paris or Brussels in order to take
> Sleeper Trains to Italy and Southern Europe or Germany and Eastern Europe.


That would indeed be great.
I once took a sleeper train (very comfortbale, you have your own shower in the compartment) to London.
Obviously it only went to Brussels were we had to change at 6 in the morning.
Would be better if you could simply sleep through the journey.
Then again it would be difficult to realize. I could imagine that the traffic in the tunnel wont allow additional trains.


----------



## iampuking

Jaeger said:


>


What's that all about?


----------



## GNU

Its about graves which have been moved I guess.


----------



## Qtya

Pretty obvious...


----------



## Jaeger

33Hz said:


> I know about the Nightstar service being scrapped. However I was asking about the service in the article you requoted. AFAIK that is the only such article and was published in 2003. When you say "there is a real possibility", do you have any other sources, because that article could just be pure fantasy?



I think plans will become more apparent when London and Continental is sold and High Speed 1 is opened up, with rail companies across Europe operating services and not just
Eurostar.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7104538.stm


----------



## Jaeger

Ditch the plane, take the train Heathrow to Paris plan

4 December 2007









Heathrow: London's next international rail hub?

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article2982649.ece

http://www.wimbledonguardian.co.uk/...ane_take_the_train_heathrow_to_paris_plan.php

Channel Tunnel planners have drawn up a blueprint for a fast rail line connecting Heathrow and Paris.

Arup, the engineering firm responsible for planning the Channel Tunnel link to Stratford, is expected to release the Heathrow-Paris proposal at the launch of a history of the existing rail link.

The Right Line, a history of the high-speed rail link is being launched tonight at a parliamentary reception.

According to media reports, the Arup plan would see the Eurostar line, which terminates at St Pancras, extended to a new Heathrow station via Paddington.

From the airport, it would head back towards Marylebone then on to Birmingham and Scotland.

Travel time from Heathrow to Paris would be under two-and-a-half hours, reducing the need for a controversial third runway at the airport.


----------



## Justme

Jaeger said:


> Ditch the plane, take the train Heathrow to Paris plan
> 
> 4 December 2007
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heathrow: London's next international rail hub?
> 
> http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article2982649.ece
> 
> http://www.wimbledonguardian.co.uk/...ane_take_the_train_heathrow_to_paris_plan.php
> 
> Channel Tunnel planners have drawn up a blueprint for a fast rail line connecting Heathrow and Paris.
> 
> Arup, the engineering firm responsible for planning the Channel Tunnel link to Stratford, is expected to release the Heathrow-Paris proposal at the launch of a history of the existing rail link.
> 
> The Right Line, a history of the high-speed rail link is being launched tonight at a parliamentary reception.
> 
> According to media reports, the Arup plan would see the Eurostar line, which terminates at St Pancras, extended to a new Heathrow station via Paddington.
> 
> From the airport, it would head back towards Marylebone then on to Birmingham and Scotland.
> 
> Travel time from Heathrow to Paris would be under two-and-a-half hours, reducing the need for a controversial third runway at the airport.


How on earth would this reduce the need for a third runway? Are they suggesting that people may land in a Paris airport and then travel to London?

Sure, right, I can really see that.

Frankfurt to London: €110 return average (with a main airline like BA, not budget), flying time 1hr 15min. Overall time 4hours max.

Frankfurt to London via Paris: €97 return + Eurostar fare €250 =€347. Total time, 7hours

Why would anyone do this?


----------



## GNU

Justme said:


> Frankfurt to London via Paris: €97 return + Eurostar fare €250 =€347. Total time, 7hours
> 
> Why would anyone do this?



Its still 7 hours with the new ICE conection between Frankfurt and Paris? 
The travel time between Strasburg and Paris has been cut in half by the new TGV line btw, so basically youd be faster in London when you travel from there I guess.


----------



## AR1182

Justme said:


> How on earth would this reduce the need for a third runway? Are they suggesting that people may land in a Paris airport and then travel to London?
> 
> Sure, right, I can really see that.
> 
> Frankfurt to London: €110 return average (with a main airline like BA, not budget), flying time 1hr 15min. Overall time 4hours max.
> 
> Frankfurt to London via Paris: €97 return + Eurostar fare €250 =€347. Total time, 7hours
> 
> Why would anyone do this?


There are still plenty of flights between Heathrow and Paris or Brussels. I guess most of those passengers connect with another flight at Heathrow, so for them the current Eurostar services from St. Pancras are not really an alternative. That would change if Eurostar actually reached Heathrow and if airlines agreed to codeshare with them in replacement of their own flights. The same could happen with flights to Manchester if there were direct trains from Heathrow to that city. In the end the airliners would free up lots of slots that could be used for bigger planes and routes where they are still more efficient than other means of transport.


----------



## AR1182

GNU said:


> Its still 7 hours with the new ICE conection between Frankfurt and Paris?
> The travel time between Strasburg and Paris has been cut in half by the new TGV line btw, so basically youd be faster in London when you travel from there I guess.


If you travelled by train from London to Frankfurt it would rather be via Brussels. The best connection there cuts the London-Frankfurt travel time to just under six hours.


----------



## ChrisH

I think the idea is that the Heathrow-Paris link would arise as part of a high-speed line to the North, with a branch to Heathrow allowing services in all directions. This could effectively remove the need for flights to most northern cities in Britain, as well as to Paris and Brussels.


----------



## 33Hz

AR1182 said:


> If you travelled by train from London to Frankfurt it would rather be via Brussels. The best connection there cuts the London-Frankfurt travel time to just under six hours.


If a direct service started tomorrow, it could be done in 5 hours. If you look at the actual distance involved - and the line between Brussels and Cologne was upgraded to 300+km/h throughout - then it should actually be more like 4 hours.

At that point things get interesting. However, there is no national strategic reason why the Belgians need to upgrade that whole line to 300km/h (they are only doing some of it), as it only really usefully speeds up journeys that pass through Belgium.


----------



## 33Hz

chrishillcoat said:


> I think the idea is that the Heathrow-Paris link would arise as part of a high-speed line to the North, with a branch to Heathrow allowing services in all directions. This could effectively remove the need for flights to most northern cities in Britain, as well as to Paris and Brussels.


Not necessarily a branch - the proposal this week from Arup says the line should be routed through Heathrow, so potentially all trains could stop there.


----------



## elfabyanos

Justme said:


> How on earth would this reduce the need for a third runway? Are they suggesting that people may land in a Paris airport and then travel to London?


It does seem like rather wishful thinking, not to mention unlikely. If anything it would encourage more travellers from the airport.


----------



## AR1182

33Hz said:


> Not necessarily a branch - the proposal this week from Arup says the line should be routed through Heathrow, so potentially all trains could stop there.


Yes, although direct service from continental Europe to Manchester and Birmingham via Heathrow wouldn't make too much sense if you keep in mind that these international trains wouldn't be allowed to carry domestic passengers, for example between Heathrow and Manchester or Birmingham, just as you can't take Eurostar from London to Ashford or Ebbsfleet.


----------



## AR1182

elfabyanos said:


> It does seem like rather wishful thinking, not to mention unlikely. If anything it would encourage more travellers from the airport.


It could replace many plane-to-plane connections at Heathrow with train-to-plane connections. Although I doubt this would be enough to make the third runway unnecessary, it would still free up many slots at Heathrow.


----------



## iampuking

33Hz said:


> Not necessarily a branch - the proposal this week from Arup says the line should be routed through Heathrow, so potentially all trains could stop there.


Seems a silly idea, the HS2 route option is to shadow the Chiltern line. Going to Heathrow would be a massive diversion, and it would require even more tunnelling.

A triangular junction at where the Heathrow branch is intended to diverge (somewhere around Northolt I believe) would be a better idea IMO.


----------



## 33Hz

iampuking said:


> Seems a silly idea, the HS2 route option is to shadow the Chiltern line. Going to Heathrow would be a massive diversion, and it would require even more tunnelling.
> 
> A triangular junction at where the Heathrow branch is intended to diverge (somewhere around Northolt I believe) would be a better idea IMO.


Get your map out and have a look at the route. Even better use Google Earth or similar.

A realistic route off the Chiltern line and back again via Heathrow adds 4 miles. At HSR speeds, for a non-stop train that is 90 seconds.


----------



## iampuking

33Hz said:


> Get your map out and have a look at the route. Even better use Google Earth or similar.
> 
> A realistic route off the Chiltern line and back again via Heathrow adds 4 miles. At HSR speeds, for a non-stop train that is 90 seconds.


Would it require more tunnelling? Is the curve fast enough for HSR speeds? Is 4 miles measured as a straight line or as a curve? Which route would it take? The existing GWML route or a new one?


----------



## 33Hz

iampuking said:


> Would it require more tunnelling? Is the curve fast enough for HSR speeds? Is 4 miles measured as a straight line or as a curve? Which route would it take? The existing GWML route or a new one?


I haven't seen the Arup proposal, but the distance between the closest points on the WCML and GMWL is about half a mile. It could parallel the latter for a few miles. You would require some tunneling under Heathrow, then swing north of Slough to rejoin the other line at High Wycombe. I'd expect about 4 miles of extra tunneling at most, and yes it could be as fast as the HS1 tunnel.


----------



## GNU

AR1182 said:


> If you travelled by train from London to Frankfurt it would rather be via Brussels.


It was Justme who picked that route out.


----------



## AR1182

GNU said:


> It was Justme who picked that route out.


I know, but I'm still wondering why he picked that one as an example, being less direct and probably more expensive.


----------



## iampuking

Are there any pics of the Thameslink station that has opened today?


----------



## Songoten2554

this is what i found on the wikipedia page on the St Pancras International Station and well i don't know if there are more to be found but if anybody would like to show it here then anybody can

this is the St Pancras new Thameslink Station opening for the FCC (First Capital Connect) pretty cool and modern like the Jubilee line Extension stations


----------



## flierfy

elfabyanos said:


> And Birmingham New Street is arguably the single most important station on the entire railway network in the UK. Nothing in London is as strategically important due to the way there are many entirely separate lines and stations into London.


Maybe not in London but stations like Rugby, Crewe or Preston are strategically more important than Birmingham New Street.


----------



## sotonsi

Flierfy - if so, why doesn't network rail own them?

BNS is the hub of the Cross Country network, on the WCML (OK, on a branch) and the hub of the West Midlands more local rail network. Crewe, Rugby and Preston are important stations, but nowhere near as busy or as vital - OK, the junctions there are important (for Crewe and Rugby anyway), but the stations aren't really.


----------



## rossie1977

new street is a strange station built under a shopping centre


----------



## elfabyanos

flierfy said:


> Maybe not in London but stations like Rugby, Crewe or Preston are strategically more important than Birmingham New Street.


Yeah and to add to what Sotonsi has pointed out BNS handles as many trains as Preston, Rugby and Crewe put together. The second most important station strategically would be Reading. Preston would be at best behind Doncaster, Reading, Manchester Piccadilly, yes Crewe and Rugby would be high up there too, but there's no doubting BNS's number one spot.


----------



## elfabyanos

brisbanite said:


> How many platforms will the new station have?


see post 10 in the uk forum for a pic. Not much change in the track layout I think, http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=711704


----------



## Svartmetall

I'm eternally thankful that New Street Station will be rebuilt. It was my least favourite station to pass through in Britain.


----------



## SO Far aways

Very nice station I never seen!

Uk Architect are the Best in The World!

Someday, I must do my country like you.


----------



## city_thing

It's a pretty fucking awesome design I have to admit 

It's good to see Brum stepping up in the world.


----------



## flierfy

sotonsi said:


> Flierfy - if so, why doesn't network rail own them?


No, network rail owns all of these stations.



sotonsi said:


> BNS is the hub of the Cross Country network, on the WCML (OK, on a branch) and the hub of the West Midlands more local rail network. Crewe, Rugby and Preston are important stations, but nowhere near as busy or as vital - OK, the junctions there are important (for Crewe and Rugby anyway), but the stations aren't really.


Birmingham New Street is of great importance for Birmingham and probably the whole West Midland conurbation. Strategically it is, however, not so important as the key station on the WCML I mentioned.

And Cross Country is a rather insignificant franchise. The rail lines to and from London are the ones of the highest importance for the whole UK. That's why they are prioritised.


----------



## sotonsi

flierfy said:


> No, network rail owns all of these stations.


I meant managed - Network Rail can't be bothered to run Crewe, Preston or Rugby but let the TOCs do it.


> And Cross Country is a rather insignificant franchise. The rail lines to and from London are the ones of the highest importance for the whole UK. That's why they are prioritised.


Yes, however that doesn't stop BNS being the most important interchange station on the network. It doesn't stop it being the centre of the UK's railway network, it doesn't stop it being the most important single station outside of London, if not the whole country.

Other contenders for the crown we're giving to BNS are Leeds and Reading - Crewe, Rugby and Preston aren't important enough stations, though I'm happy to admit that the junctions near them are major junctions (though would delays there cause delays all over the NR network, as delays at the junctions either side of BNS would?) and also to admit that in network terms the stations are quite important. Preston is the only one of the three you mention that all the trains passing through stop at - Crewe and Rugby are unimportant enough that only some of the trains going through them stop there. Stafford's also between important junctions on the WCML (more important than Preston for certain) - why is that not on your list. Doncaster is the Crewe on the other side of the country - again, why not on the list.


----------



## Brummyboy92

You go sotonsi


----------



## Kuvvaci

it is very nice...


----------



## flierfy

sotonsi said:


> I meant managed - Network Rail can't be bothered to run Crewe, Preston or Rugby but let the TOCs do it.


Which station is managed by Network Rail and which not says very little about its importance. I couldn't explain why Gatwick Airport station is managed by NR while Clapham Jct isn't.



sotonsi said:


> Yes, however that doesn't stop BNS being the most important interchange station on the network. It doesn't stop it being the centre of the UK's railway network, it doesn't stop it being the most important single station outside of London, if not the whole country.


There are reliable source that disagree with you. Several London station count more interchanges than Birmingham New Street. Most notable a station called Clapham Junction.

And it is neither the heart of the whole network. Birmingham New Street is off any high speed main line. There are even rail lines through central Birmingham that are by-passing this station. I fail to name a part of Britain's rail network that could be described as its heart. Maybe London Underground as it links all London Termini.



sotonsi said:


> Other contenders for the crown we're giving to BNS are Leeds and Reading - Crewe, Rugby and Preston aren't important enough stations, though I'm happy to admit that the junctions near them are major junctions (though would delays there cause delays all over the NR network, as delays at the junctions either side of BNS would?)


These delays would be recognised from Glasgow to London whereas any failure of the infrastructure in and around Birmingham would cause hardly more than local problems.



sotonsi said:


> and also to admit that in network terms the stations are quite important. Preston is the only one of the three you mention that all the trains passing through stop at - Crewe and Rugby are unimportant enough that only some of the trains going through them stop there. Stafford's also between important junctions on the WCML (more important than Preston for certain) - why is that not on your list. Doncaster is the Crewe on the other side of the country - again, why not on the list.


I gave you the examples that first sprang to my mind. Doncaster, Peterborough, York and some others are certainly as strategically important as those on the WCML.


----------



## sotonsi

flierfy said:


> There are reliable source that disagree with you. Several London station count more interchanges than Birmingham New Street. Most notable a station called Clapham Junction.


however number isn't always a sign of importance - Clapham Junction is for interchanges between different parts of SW/S London, and things like Eastbourne-Basingstoke: basically within the SE area. BNS connects trains from most parts of the country with each other - OK, you won't use it for London changes from many places, due to the more direct routes, but it's the focal point for long distance services that don't serve London. If you removed Clapham Junction station, then the interchanges could happen elsewhere easier than if you removed BNS.


> And it is neither the heart of the whole network. Birmingham New Street is off any high speed main line.


but the network isn't just high speed main lines (that 3 different major intercity routes pass through it, plus more regional routes (West Wales, Leicester/Stansted) as well as more local routes in the West Midlands). It's the lead contender for the single rail station that could be considered the heart, the centre of the UK rail network.


> There are even rail lines through central Birmingham that are by-passing this station. I fail to name a part of Britain's rail network that could be described as its heart. Maybe London Underground as it links all London Termini.


I'd agree that there's a multi-hubbed network, but BNS, if you had to name one station as a hub, would be it, though that doesn't work. However I stand by my suggestion that, among some stiff competition (mostly from stations I've mentioned, more than ones you have), BNS is the most important.


> These delays would be recognised from Glasgow to London whereas any failure of the infrastructure in and around Birmingham would cause hardly more than local problems.


wrong - I've been delayed at Southampton many times due to problems further up the Cross Country route - the Cross Country trains, if delayed muck about with the lines they use - SWT get delayed if there's some problem with signals at Reading, or Oxford, or even Edinburgh (that was a major problem there once and my SWT slow-train got delayed by a small amount as it had to let the really late running XC train go first) - as BNS is on all the XC lines, then delays there will pass on to almost every mainline in the country - problems at Crewe, etc, would impact the rail network, and the WCML in particular, but a major problem at BNS would affect the much more of the country's rail network, as it's a focus for services that use lots of different lines, as well as just a few.


> I gave you the examples that first sprang to my mind. Doncaster, Peterborough, York and some others are certainly as strategically important as those on the WCML.


but none of those are as important as BNS strategically. Not forgetting that, as a station, rather than just a junction is what matters when talking about strategically important. Crewe, Preston and Rugby were absurd "these are better than BNS strategically", Doncaster, Peterborough and York are about the same calibre as their WCML counterparts. Clapham Junction: finally a worthy adversary, however isn't quite as good - it just doesn't have the same amount of national significance on top of it's regional and local significance (and also, trains do skip it - they don't skip BNS under normal service).


----------



## elfabyanos

Fierfly, BNS is the single most important train station in the country by any standards. Just because Preston and Rugby are on busy routes doesnt make them as important, by that same reckoning a bridge accross a little stream half a mile from Preston station could have the same significance because as many trains pass over it. But if Preston station closed but the trains still ran through would there be chaos? Only for people who live in Preston. If the same things happened at BNS, the trains could get through but no passengers could get off or change there would chaos. Conversely if they trains couldn't pass Preston that would scupper the WCML. BLocking BNS would scupper the WCML ECML, midland mainline and the route to Bristol - AXC trains get in the way and cuase delays everywhere as it is but chaos at BNS breeds chaos everywhere else. And although there are many other important places, and BNS is not the centre of tehh universe, there a re just no other individual train stations that are as strategicall important. Clapham junction maybe, but that only affects the London - Eastbourne - Bournemouth triangle.


----------



## hkskyline

*London's St. Pancras Station axes artwork depicting passenger falling to death under train *
13 October 2008

LONDON (AP) - The sculpture shows a man about to fall under a subway car driven by a Grim Reaper figure.

Its creator says it was meant as a tribute to train drivers and the risks they face. But the work's planned home, a London railway station, said Monday it had canceled plans to put it on display after complaints by railway unions and the families of suicide victims.

Officials at St. Pancras Station, the hub for Eurostar high-speed shuttle services to France and Belgium, said the carving by sculptor Paul Day was inappropriate.

The image was intended as part of a bronze frieze encircling the base of Day's work "The Meeting Place," a 30-foot (9 meter) statue of an embracing couple that stands on the station concourse.

A clay model of part of the frieze went on display at the station last week. It shows a series of railway-related scenes, including soldiers heading off to war and emergency workers helping victims of the July 7, 2005 London transit bombings.

Day said the contentious image -- shown reflected in a pair of sunglasses -- was meant "as a view of the mind's eye of a train driver."

"Rather than depicting suicide, it is depicting the fears these drivers do face," Day told BBC radio. He said he hoped it would encourage people to "respect and admire that particular job."

A train drivers' union and families of people who have committed suicide on the railways criticized the image as insensitive.

Station owner London and Continental Railways said the frieze would go ahead without the disputed section.

Spokesman Ben Ruse said the company welcomed Day's "challenging" work. But he said CEO Rob Holden had decided that "the particular scene of a rail passenger in front of a Tube train will not form part of the final frieze."

The finished frieze is due to be in place by mid-2009.


----------



## narflc

This is the London Midland train station?


----------



## andysimo123

narflc said:


> This is the London Midland train station?


London Midland is a train company. Network Rail own and run it.


----------



## narflc

Ah... I was once to Cradley Heath from Birmingham using LM and then the small People movers. It was a nice experience...


----------



## Herbicide

UD2 said:


> This is the Shenzhou, and it does look like the sketch for the Grand Central proposal


^^ This is an outsize double decker and would never fit the UKs inferior guage.



UD2 said:


> If the Grand central train is going to be diesel, then it could present a problem. Mostly because China have never seen a real high speed DMU.


Neither has anywhere but the UK. Its high time we started investing properly in electrification and finished with these stupid botched compromises. Diesel should be left to remote, rural and underused lines like it is in almost any other developed country.


----------



## Republica

blast from the past.

anyway, whats going on with the grand central chinese trains?

surely they will just get hitachi super expresses?


----------



## poshbakerloo

Ok, this is an odd idea...


----------



## link_road_17/7

AFAIK, the IEPs (Super Express) will only be for the ECML (as well as GWML, WCML South) franchise holders, not for the open-access TOCs.

Perhaps with the recession, Grand Central will be sticking with its HSTs for now, seeing how IEP plays out, and then 'tagging' an order later on. Not much has been mentioned about the 'Polaris' trains since 2007.

Of course, other events, IEP Programme, renationalisation, etc., could throw further spanners in the plans.


----------



## Republica

IEP should be for anyone who wants one. Any company who wants to upgrade their HST's.


----------



## bachanne1

*Thameslink future rolling stock*

Hello,
I heard that Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens gave their offer to the Dft for the Thameslink tender.
Do you have an idea of their respective innovations?
Do you know if Bombardier is using a classical asynchronous motor, or might they be offering their MITRAC permanent magnet motor, which would be synchronous? Where will this motor be situated? So far, the B5000 bogie doesn’t have the motor integrated, but it is under the car body instead. Will this be continued, or might they place the motor inside the bogie? 
Has Alstom really offered this offset articulated bogie on the extrapolis?
Has Siemens proposed its syntegra system, which would make the train lighter?
What do you think?


----------



## Burkitt

The Thameslink order is for 1200 carriages, in 110 units. They will be in fixed formations of 240m or 160m length, ie twelve cars or eight cars. The very long units allow higher capacity through reduced number of cabs and disabled toilets, and are possible because there will be no need for splitting or joining in service. The 240m units will have an outer suburban configuration, and the 160m units both outer and inner suburban or metro versions. 

See http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...meslink-emu-invitations-to-tender-issued.html for further details.









Siemens is offering a new version of their UK Desiro, called Desiro City and based on the new Scottish class 380. It will use lightweight Asyntegra bogies, but not the Syntegra gearless drive. This and other features will make it 25% lighter than the original UK Desrios. See http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...mens-offers-desiro-city-to-the-uk-market.html for full details









The Alstom bid is a new UK version of its Xtrapolis train. So far the only reavealed detail is that it will feature "bogie offset articulation", which allows a wider body and more floor space than conventional trains. According to Modern Railways, Network Rail favours an articulated design due to the advantages of reduced weight and track wear.
See http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/10/next-generation-emu-details-revealed.html









Bombardier has produced an artist's impression of its second generation Electrostar, based on the South African Gautrain. No specific technical details have been announced, other than that it is a "low risk solution" drawing on experience with previous UK Electrostars, the German Talent 2, Paris Spacium and French AGC. Given the recent build quality and delivery delay problems facing Bombardier, I doubt they are likely to receive the Thameslink contract.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...o-announce-second-generation-electrostar.html


----------



## poshbakerloo

^^^^ooh they sure look good! when will they come in?


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

From the Railway Gazette article Thameslink EMU invitations to tender issued:


> Thameslink procurement timescale
> 
> November 27 2008
> Invitations to tender issued
> 
> April 2009
> Detailed proposals submitted
> 
> End 2009
> DfT selects best offer
> 
> March 2010
> FCC signs contracts
> 
> Autumn 2011
> Testing begins
> 
> 2012
> First trains enter service
> 
> 2015
> Deliveries complete


----------



## New York Morning

*Trains of Scotland*

Pics from railpictures.net


----------



## poshbakerloo

Arnt the trains in Scotland the same as England and Wales


----------



## New York Morning

may be //


----------



## poshbakerloo

*Trains of Great Britain*

The Good, Great, Perfect, Old, New, Bad, Big, Small and Ugly...


----------



## poshbakerloo

*More*


----------



## poshbakerloo

*Even more*


----------



## poshbakerloo

*Some more*


----------



## Jay

British trains are awesome :cheers:


----------



## Langur

No Eurostar??


----------



## MelbourneCity

Love English trains!
God that 321 in Northern livery looks awful!


----------



## Manchester Planner

poshbakerloo said:


> Arnt the trains in Scotland the same as England and Wales


Yes. Pointless thread.


----------



## poshbakerloo

*A few more*


----------



## poshbakerloo

Langur said:


> No Eurostar??


I didn't think it was counted...? Is it?


----------



## Manchester Planner

Yeah, why shouldn't it be?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_373


----------



## poshbakerloo

Manchester Planner said:


> Yeah, why shouldn't it be?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_373


Ooh dunno guess i thought it was part french or summit...ill add it in ;-)

*GNER Euro Star Class 373...*


----------



## bains1971

The trains are OK, but the steam trains are the ones that really captured the imagination.


----------



## dmarney

the thing i like about english trains is that they're so varied, lots of types of trains _and_ lots of different liveries


----------



## New York Morning

*poshbakerloo,* thanks for the pics!
btw, how many rail companies there are in uk?


----------



## poshbakerloo

New York Morning said:


> *poshbakerloo,* thanks for the pics!
> btw, how many rail companies there are in uk?


A lot! lol...

I think 32 if you include 'sub brands' what ever that means...

27 if you don't...


----------



## New York Morning

poshbakerloo said:


> A lot! lol...
> 
> I think 32 if you include 'sub brands' what ever that means...
> 
> 27 if you don't...


:nuts: Could you show a map, if you got it


----------



## DarkLoki

A lot of variation indeed and a lot of nice trains. But, I really dislike the crazy liveries, a lot of screaming colours and patterns, not very elegant. Also I dislike the the way they put the doors on the front of some trains but I guess that practicality goes above looks in that case.

And this:








I one of the most ugly trains I have every seen, looks like it can transform in a Japanese robot or something like that.


----------



## Manchester Planner

New York Morning said:


> :nuts: Could you show a map, if you got it


http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tocs_maps/maps/trainoperators.pdf

That's passenger train operators... in addition of course there's plenty of freight companies. And heritage lines and mainline heritage and spot hire companies. And then there's infrastructure companies. Etc... :nuts:


----------



## New York Morning

Thanx )


----------



## poshbakerloo

Manchester Planner said:


> http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tocs_maps/maps/trainoperators.pdf
> 
> That's passenger train operators... in addition of course there's plenty of freight companies. And heritage lines and mainline heritage and spot hire companies. And then there's infrastructure companies. Etc... :nuts:


WOW thats a great map!


----------



## New York Morning

no doubt


----------



## Sarepava

*Proposed HS2 line in the UK and Airtrack*

Anyone see on the news the other day about the plans to build a high speed line up the West Coast linking London, Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh and Glasgow? My question is, does anyone think it will actually get built? There's always been a good case for more railways in the UK, but with the current economic situation the government will have to get an incredible amount of private investment to fund it. I'm guessing that the project will use technology and construction techniques from the TGV (dead straight sections, track separated from slow lines). The other problem is that there's basically no room on the surface for new lines and stations in city centres, so would having underground stations be the only solution? Again, massive costs. What will the ticket prices be like when it finally opens?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8221540.stm

The other scheme which is going ahead in the next few years is something called Airtrack, which is basically to run trains from Reading. Woking and south London to Heathrow Airport. This will involve building a rail tunnel to Heathrow from the south to meet the existing airport stations, re-opening a railway line across the edge of a nature reserve, and re-building a chord on a viaduct across what is now a car park in Staines. Airtrack is of particular significance to me as I live in a small town (Egham) which is bounded by four level crossings. At the moment we have basically been told that there is no way to build bridges or tunnels to replace them, and so with the increase in trains when Airtrack is completed the barriers will be down for anything up to 50 mins an hour, effectively locking the town's roads. (There are two ways in from the North and East without having to cross a railway, but the town centre is close by two of the crossings). Needless to say, none of the Airtrack services will actually be calling at Egham.

www.airtrack.org/


----------



## poshbakerloo

I think it looks real good. I've seen it before. The only issue I have is why can't you go from Manchester to Birmingham or Glasgow to Manchester...


----------



## poshbakerloo

*Old trains of Great Britain...*

Old trains of Great Britain...

Not the very old just multiple units from the 40s, 50s and 60s...


----------



## poshbakerloo

*More...*

EMUs...


----------



## andysimo123

poshbakerloo said:


> I think it looks real good. I've seen it before. The only issue I have is why can't you go from Manchester to Birmingham or Glasgow to Manchester...


It says in the report about 4 trains per hour between regional cities. That could be Manchester to Brum for example.


----------



## NCT

As I see it the proposed line is of mainline-and-branch configuration. It would be good if Manchester, Birmingham etc could be connected to the main line in the other direction, then you could potentially have fast Glasgow - Manchester - Birmingham - London service.

Another line going through the midlands and north coast would be good as well, e.g. Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Middlesbrough, Newcastle, Edinburg, but we are talking about potential lines _after_ HS2, which itself will be decades away if it does get built...


----------



## thun

Why should there be a problem regarding the city centres. You can link the new line to the existing network and use the existing tracks and stations in the cities. Costs a few minutes but is much cheaper. The TGV doesn't run with 300km/h within Paris either.


----------



## Mateusz

Myabe second line would go East Coast from London to Leeds


----------



## brisbanite

Great selection of pics there poshbakerloo. kay:


----------



## andysimo123

thun said:


> Why should there be a problem regarding the city centres. You can link the new line to the existing network and use the existing tracks and stations in the cities. Costs a few minutes but is much cheaper. The TGV doesn't run with 300km/h within Paris either.


The idea is to build new platforms with existing stations or new stations near existing terminals inside city centres. The problem of using existing platforms and tracks arises from capacity. The other reasons are linking them to the existing system for easy connections. That keeps travel times as fast as possible, opens up capacity and gets people to where they want to be. Its all in the report.


----------



## JoFMO

andysimo123 said:


> The idea is to build new platforms with existing stations or new stations near existing terminals inside city centres. The problem of using existing platforms and tracks arises from capacity. The other reasons are linking them to the existing system for easy connections. That keeps travel times as fast as possible, opens up capacity and gets people to where they want to be. Its all in the report.


I read the full report from Network Rail and am very happy with the recommendations.

Basically they propose a new line all the way to Scotland with branches to B'ham, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh. The runtimes to Scotland with around 2:15 are incredible and will give rail a real boost.

In regards to the city center stations they want to built the line to the full European loading gauge, e.g. 400m long double stagged TGV's. That makes the classic stations unsuitable as their platforms are too short and also too close to the track.

My only slight criticism arises from that point. I don't think that they need to run 4 trains per hour to each B'ham and Manchester. They say that this trains will be only 10 coaches long. But by running 400m long double stagged trains they could run 20-minutes intervals as currently and would still offer enough capacity. Maybe even a 30-minutes interval would be sufficient. For an Intercity route like these I think every 30 minutes is more than ebough and would not drive too many passengers to other modes of transportation as long as I can ofer enough capacity. The current 20 minutes intervals offered by Virgin Trains is from my point more derived by the lack of other options to extend capacity than by the necessity to run such a frequency.

By gaining four pathes from B'ham and Manchester additional trains could run to Chester-Holyhead, Leicester-Nottingham or other provincial towns.


----------



## dmarney

An interesting old train to mention:

these trains were used on the london underground, then some were moved to the isle of wight in the south of england and are still in service today, running the short island line running from north to the south of the island.


----------



## TedStriker

Does anyone have any shots taken within Southampton Docks - eastern or western - during the 1970s?


----------



## hans280

thun said:


> Why should there be a problem regarding the city centres. You can link the new line to the existing network and use the existing tracks and stations in the cities. Costs a few minutes but is much cheaper. The TGV doesn't run with 300km/h within Paris either.


True, but in France this is done only at the end stations (e.g. Paris, Marseille...). It's not such a great idea to pass via the city centre of every major town on the route. The train usually has to roll for 10-15 kms on legacy tracks with speeds limited to less than 140 km/h. Even if a train runs non-stop this will prolong the travel time by up to 10 minutes. This problem has essentially killed the high-speed concept in Germany: the trains from Hamburg to Munich, for example, have to pass via half a dozen of city centres which compared with a fully fledged TGV solution already slows them down by more than half an hour. 

I fear in England the problem would be even worse. So far delays and slow trains are caused by congestion of the commuter tracks around the major cities rather than congestion out on the lines. If you force the new HS2 to use parts of these existing tracks in city centres then, surely, they will become part of the same "pagaille"?


----------



## NCT

If my understanding is correct, the current proposal is for the line to penetrate the major cities as well as having by-passing lines for 'fast' trains.


----------



## hans280

^^That's also my understanding. The plans for HS2 that I've seen follows the masterplan that has worked well in France (Lyon, Reims, Tours...) insofar as the trains come FROM the capital. As you say it's about giving the trains the option, but not the obligation, to service the city centre. 

What some of the discussants here worry about is the apparent lack of HS connections into Manchester and Birmingham for trains running from north to south. Trains from Birmingham to Manchester would leave B slowly and enter M quickly; trains from M to B would leave M quickly and enter B slowly. Personally I don't think it's a big issue. I'm sure that the HS line will be connected to the legacy rails and even if the connection between provincial cities would be a bit slower than it might have been it's still a huge advance on what we have today. 

My posting was intended as an objection to Thun who seems to think that there shouldn't be a bypass at Birmingham and Manchester. THAT I would strongly recommend against, as would most people who ever sat in a German "ICE Sprinter" which "sprinted" through a sequence of medium-sized towns at 120 km/h. hno:


----------



## andysimo123

JoFMO said:


> I read the full report from Network Rail and am very happy with the recommendations.
> 
> Basically they propose a new line all the way to Scotland with branches to B'ham, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh. The runtimes to Scotland with around 2:15 are incredible and will give rail a real boost.
> 
> In regards to the city center stations they want to built the line to the full European loading gauge, e.g. 400m long double stagged TGV's. That makes the classic stations unsuitable as their platforms are too short and also too close to the track.
> 
> My only slight criticism arises from that point. I don't think that they need to run 4 trains per hour to each B'ham and Manchester. They say that this trains will be only 10 coaches long. But by running 400m long double stagged trains they could run 20-minutes intervals as currently and would still offer enough capacity. Maybe even a 30-minutes interval would be sufficient. For an Intercity route like these I think every 30 minutes is more than ebough and would not drive too many passengers to other modes of transportation as long as I can ofer enough capacity. The current 20 minutes intervals offered by Virgin Trains is from my point more derived by the lack of other options to extend capacity than by the necessity to run such a frequency.
> 
> By gaining four pathes from B'ham and Manchester additional trains could run to Chester-Holyhead, Leicester-Nottingham or other provincial towns.


I wouldn't be sure 4 trains from each would be enough if the system is a huge success. Its aiming to wipe out the air travel sector domestically and with journey times coming down to one hour to the North West. Travelling by train to Europe is going to look very attractive. You'd have your current train user market along with 4 or 5 new ones. It would be possible to travel from Manchester to Paris in 3 hours 21 minutes. Once LGV Picardie is built which will be before HS2 has even opened, times from London to Paris will drop to 1 hour 55 minutes. If a by pass is built from HS1 to HS2. Manchester to Paris could come in at around 3 hours. Birmingham to Paris 2 hours 40 minutes. etc


----------



## hans280

andysimo123 said:


> Once LGV Picardie is built which will be before HS2 has even opened, times from London to Paris will drop to 1 hour 55 minutes. If a by pass is built from HS1 to HS2. Manchester to Paris could come in at around 3 hours. Birmingham to Paris 2 hours 40 minutes. etc


That's more than I know. Yeah, LGV Picardie WOULD have this effect on travelling times, but as far as I know this LGV is not high on any French agenda. The formal planning procedures have not even started (which places the line behind six other unstarted projects....) and there's not a chance of construction work beginning until after 2020.


----------



## 1772

Looks great!


----------



## NCT

I think the current proposal includes a long-term plan for a potential spur to Heathrow, so that long-haul flyers could potencially take the train to and from scotland instead of taking another flight. If they can build a link between HS2 and HS1 then, why, a Scotland - Mainline Europe direct service could be possible no? It could call at Stratford International within London.


----------



## JoFMO

andysimo123 said:


> I wouldn't be sure 4 trains from each would be enough if the system is a huge success. Its aiming to wipe out the air travel sector domestically and with journey times coming down to one hour to the North West. Travelling by train to Europe is going to look very attractive. You'd have your current train user market along with 4 or 5 new ones. It would be possible to travel from Manchester to Paris in 3 hours 21 minutes. Once LGV Picardie is built which will be before HS2 has even opened, times from London to Paris will drop to 1 hour 55 minutes. If a by pass is built from HS1 to HS2. Manchester to Paris could come in at around 3 hours. Birmingham to Paris 2 hours 40 minutes. etc


Just to make my concerns clear. A Virgin Class 390 Pendolino currently is 220m long and seats 340 Passengers. They will be extended by 2 cars and might seat 400 seats after all.

A TGV Duplex formed by 2 sets is 400m long and can seat 1100 Passengers.

So going from 3x400=1200 seats per hour to 4x1110=4400 seats for B'ham and Manchester is quite a big step.

I am aware that the report only talks about ten car sets, but they also say that the line will be built to European standard. So it would be easily possible to increase the number of seats by large without sacrificing too many other slots.


----------



## Never give up

...and hopefully soon to be served by the Metro line.


----------



## poshbakerloo

I hope they open the platforms up a bit. Its so dark and dingy down there!


----------



## Accura4Matalan

elfabyanos said:


> But if Preston station closed but the trains still ran through would there be chaos? Only for people who live in Preston..


Preston Station is more valued for its connections than its service to people in Preston. A very large number of people from both Manchester and Liverpool use Preston to get a connection to Glasgow. In addition, Preston is one of the key connection points between any city on the Transpennine route and the WCML. And anybody living in towns on the East Lancs or Fylde branches are entirely dependent on Preston to get a connection to either London or Scotland. 

So if Preston did close, it would be leaving millions of people in great difficulty to get key connections... bringing chaos to the network. The Transpennine and Cross Country routes are already overcrowded as it is.


----------



## poshbakerloo

^^^i was just looking n i cnt find anything


----------



## poshbakerloo

I wonder who will take over from NXEC


----------



## sotavento

http://kenneth-f-baker.fotopic.net/


----------



## brisbanite

sotavento said:


> http://kenneth-f-baker.fotopic.net/


Thanks for the link, some great pics there!


----------



## poshbakerloo

^^ east coast

Answered my own question!


----------



## Manchester Planner




----------



## poshbakerloo

^^ nice photo


----------



## Guest

Manchester Planner said:


>


I love the design of this train. I travelled on it between London Waterloo and Salisbury. It was a bit diesel's smelly though.


----------



## dmarney

Why did GNER use those class 373's, they look so cool in that livery, did NXEX use them?


----------



## Mostly Lurking

dmarney said:


> Why did GNER use those class 373's, they look so cool in that livery, did NXEX use them?


No, the lease on them ended in 2005, long before NXEC.


----------



## dmarney

ah, never mind


----------



## MarkO

*HS2 Route*

Does anyone 'in the know' on here have any idea if the old "Woodhead Tunnel" is being considered as a potential part of the route to Manchester?

There is a single mention of HS2 on the website http://savethewoodheadtunnel.blogspot.com/ but would be nice to know what the latest thinking is??


M


----------



## WatcherZero

Only one of thems even in a fit state for rail and its about to be filled with power cables.


----------



## makita09

hans280 said:


> My posting was intended as an objection to Thun who seems to think that there shouldn't be a bypass at Birmingham and Manchester. THAT I would strongly recommend against, as would most people who ever sat in a German "ICE Sprinter" which "sprinted" through a sequence of medium-sized towns at 120 km/h. hno:


Its a no go anyway. There is not the capacity to run long distance services through the cities on existing tracks. It doesn't happen at the moment due to Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds all being bypassed by the mainlines that serve them on spurs - and all available the capacity in the city centres is used for other services.


----------



## makita09

JoFMO said:


> A Virgin Class 390 Pendolino currently is 220m long and seats 340 Passengers. They will be extended by 2 cars and might seat 400 seats after all.


Actually about 11 of them won't, the DfT has not taken the option on the last few sets. These will be the Scotland sets. [/offtopic]


----------



## makita09

Please everyone note these proposals are by Network Rail, these are completely independent from the proposals being drawn up at the request of the Government by HS2, the company set up by the Government to do this.

NR's proposals are effectively irrelevent.

The official proposal is due for publication in the next few weeks.


----------



## makita09

MarkO said:


> Does anyone 'in the know' on here have any idea if the old "Woodhead Tunnel" is being considered as a potential part of the route to Manchester?
> 
> There is a single mention of HS2 on the website http://savethewoodheadtunnel.blogspot.com/ but would be nice to know what the latest thinking is??
> 
> 
> M


Its also a 90-100mph railway from the 19th century. Not exactly fit for 250mph requirements.


----------



## Cherguevara

makita09 said:


> Its also a 90-100mph railway from the 19th century. Not exactly fit for 250mph requirements.


It's the wider 1950s tunnels they're trying to save. Admitedly not suitable for 250mph, but could be upgraded as a transpenine link.


----------



## MarkO

*ADVANCE PRESS NOTICE OF HS2 ANNOUNCEMENT*

This is from the Campaign for Better Transport today giving campaigners and journalists a heads-up for Thursdays important announcement.



> High Speed Rail: a briefing from the Campaign for Better Transport
> For immediate release
> 9 March 2010
> 
> This week (probably Thursday), the Government will publish a White Paper on High Speed Rail.
> 
> This briefing sets out the background to this and the likely reactions to it.
> 
> Summary of main points
> 
> Key issues to be resolved:
> · Funding
> o Will funding have to be taken away from existing transport budgets, including during the preparatory development?
> · Route:
> o Should the line go via Heathrow?
> o What will be the impact on the Chilterns?
> · National high speed network:
> o What are the plans beyond Birmingham ?
> o Will high speed trains be allowed to run on the rest of the network?
> o Will the new line be linked to European high speed networks?
> · Benefits of high speed rail:
> o Is it environmentally beneficial?
> o Will it help the economy?
> o Will it cost a lot to use it?
> 
> To have support from environmental groups, high speed rail plans must:
> o Protect the local environment
> o Be part of a package that tackles climate change and minimises energy needs
> o Shift existing trips from air and road rather than generate new ones
> o Improve local transport links
> o Integrate with planning and regeneration
> o Not abstract funding from existing public transport
> 
> Background
> 
> All three main parties are now committed to building some kind of high speed line from London to the north of England and possibly on to Scotland . This has not always been the case. As recently as December 2006, a Government report by Rod Eddington on transport and economy rejected the idea, saying there was no evidence that major new rail infrastructure was needed and that big projects like high speed rail were answers looking for a problem. The 2007 Rail White Paper mentioned High Speed Rail, but only as one option for solving future overcrowding, and pushed any consideration of it into the future.
> 
> This position started to change when the Channel Tunnel Rail Link to St Pancras opened in November 2007 as “High Speed 1”. People could now see a high speed link in reality, and this began a debate about the UK lagging behind other countries where high speed trains and lines are widespread. In particular Japan and France have been building new high speed lines since the 1970s, and Italy , Germany and Spain have more recently been constructing new lines.
> 
> But just because other countries have high speed lines and we now have a bit of one doesn’t explain why a new high speed line now has all party support. The three reasons for this can be summed up as capacity, aviation and Adonis.
> 
> Capacity
> 
> Despite all the criticisms levelled at the rail network, its use has been growing rapidly. Even during the recession, passenger and freight use has stayed remarkably buoyant. Many lines and trains are full - most notably (and something London-based politicians find hard to credit), commuter trains round cities in the north of England are massively overcrowded, some on lines once earmarked for closure, The main lines between London, Midlands and the north are already full of trains, both passenger and freight, and there are now intricate negotiations between Network Rail and the different train operators to find ways of fitting in all the trains they want to run on these lines.
> 
> There are investments planned or happening to tackle some of the bottlenecks – new signalling, longer trains, extra tracks – but the railway planners forecast that if growth resumes after the recession, all this will be used up within 10-15 years. This is true even on the West Coast Main Line from London to Glasgow , only recently modernised. So the question of how to provide for growth in rail use is becoming an urgent one, and new lines have emerged as a favourite way forward. And if new lines are to be built, making them high speed is seen as inevitable – but the need for capacity is what makes the case for spending money. Additional capacity is the “official” reason for why a high speed rail is being considered.
> 
> Aviation
> 
> The expansion of aviation, and in particular, proposals for a third runway at Heathrow and a second runway at Stansted are very controversial and have been strongly opposed by environmental groups. The Government is committed to supporting these and other expansion plans, whereas the Conservatives have committed to oppose the expansion of Heathrow and the other major south east airports. As part of this, the Conservatives announced at their 2008 party conference support for a high speed line from London to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and possibly the north east and Scotland. They have had a lot of work done on how to finance this and ways to progress it.
> 
> Lord Adonis
> 
> The Government’s rather cool approach to high speed rail has been abruptly changed with the arrival at the Department for Transport of Lord Adonis, first as Minister for State and then as Transport Secretary. Lord Adonis is probably one of the very few Transport Secretaries who has actively wanted the job (not for nothing was the “Yes Minister” episode on transport entitled “The Bed of Nails”) – he is very keen on railways and has always wanted to pursue high speed rail. Under his leadership, the Department for Transport has become a hotbed of rail development. Adonis famously toured the country’s railways and has imposed new tighter specifications for franchises, the East Coast franchise has been temporarily renationalised, funding has been committed for electrification and for cycle hubs at stations and so on.
> 
> The Government announced its support for a Heathrow 3rd runway in January 2009 – but at the same time Adonis secured agreement to set up a separate grouping, “High speed 2”, with a brief to develop in detail the business case and route for a high speed line from London to Birmingham, with options for links to Heathrow and intermediate stations. HS2 was also asked to look at options for high speed lines north of Birmingham . Their report (which is reportedly over 1000 pages) was handed to the Government at the end of 2009 and will be published alongside the White Paper.
> 
> Adonis has been at pains to try to get widespread support for his proposals. But the Conservatives are not playing. They are keen to differentiate their proposal, and are supporting a proposal from the engineering consultants Arups for the line to go directly via Heathrow. Many city local authorities say they are keen but for many their support is conditional on eventually being part of a high speed network. And environmental groups will want to see high speed rail linked to other policies (see below).
> 
> What will be in the White Paper
> 
> Based on press reports and briefings, it is clear that the White Paper will include:
> 
> · a firm preferred route for a high speed line from London to Birmingham , down to very detailed (5m) maps
> · options for connections to Heathrow
> · options for intermediate stations
> · options for further high speed line development north of Birmingham
> Press reports indicate that the proposed line will run from London Euston, via a new station near Willesden/Acton (and Wormwood Scrubs prison) called Old Oak Common, where it can connect with other lines to Heathrow, via Ruislip then through the Chilterns and the vale of Aylesbury to a parkway station at Birmingham International (with a junction for trains to go further north) and a city centre station in Birmingham. The white paper will launch a consultation on the preferred route and trigger payments for blight of properties affected. It will also set out a proposed longer term high speed rail network, including links to Scotland and cities in the north of England .
> 
> Key issues
> 
> Despite support in principle for high speed lines from the main parties and many local authorities, there are a large number of issues and concerns.
> 
> Funding: It is unclear how a high speed line is to be paid for. It will be extremely expensive to build; even the London-Birmingham section will cost billions of pounds. Campaign for Better Transport and other groups will want to ensure that a high speed line does not suck funding away from the existing rail network and other everyday transport. To some extent the French experience has been of gleaming new high speed lines and trains with a shabby conventional rail network, especially outside the cities. Even if the funding for high speed line construction can be treated as separate and extra to transport budgets, the preparatory costs (land purchase, blight payments, getting a bill through Parliament) could be huge and at a time of public spending cuts could lead to service cuts and fares rises on the rest of public transport or cuts in road maintenance (no money for filling in the potholes from the winter).
> 
> Heathrow: there is debate about how and whether the line should serve Heathrow. Because of their linking support for a high speed line to opposing airport expansion, the Conservatives have been drawn to pushing for the line to go from London via Heathrow and then north to Birmingham , as opposed to a more direct route with connections or a branch to Heathrow. A recent report from the Bow Group, backed by Lord Heseltine, supported this. Against this, the Government appears to be tilting towards not having a direct link to Heathrow but having connections at the Old Oak Common station with Crossrail, which is scheduled to serve Heathrow.
> 
> Chilterns and the routing: there will be deep concern about the proposed routing of the line through the Chilterns, which are an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty and contain many designated wildlife habitats. Conservative voters and MPs there will be concerned, along with groups like the National Trust, which owns parts of the Chilterns. Alternative routings taking the line parallel to the M1 have already been suggested by some engineers. The degree of tunnelling will be a matter for negotiation. There will be opposition on other parts of the route too.
> 
> Further questions
> 
> Why stop at Birmingham ?
> The Conservatives and others (especially Scottish parties and local authorities in northern England cities) will argue that a London-Birmingham line, even as a first stage, makes no sense and that any new line must be built to the north and possibly Scotland immediately if it is to maximise the potential for getting people to use rail rather than air or road. There will also be debates about whether the high speed line will be integrated into the rest of the rail network; will a train from say Exeter to Newcastle be able to use the high speed line for some of the journey, or will the line be reserved only for specific trains to and from London ?
> 
> Will there be through trains to other European countries?
> Will there be a link between the present HS1 from the Channel Tunnel and any new line, with through trains from UK cities to mainland Europe to compete with short distance flights. Or will people have to change in London as now? At present this is unclear.
> 
> Is it really environmentally beneficial?
> This is a matter of deep debate – and depends what else the Government does. Something that makes rail travel more attractive than road and air looks good environmentally, at least superficially – and clearly if it were to result in a big transfer of people from road and air to rail this would be good news. And the traffic is there – there are a lot of short distance flights and lots of longer distance car journeys (rail’s share of the Birmingham-Manchester market is at present just 4%). But high speed rail will involve a lot of carbon emissions and environmental damage in its construction and on some figures high speed trains can be almost twice as polluting as conventional trains because of the extra energy they use; there is also a danger they will just generate lots of new journeys rather than shift existing ones. In this case, a new line could result in more carbon emissions overall, as people simply travel more and further by all modes.
> 
> However, if a new line were to be built explicitly as part of a package of policies to produce modal shift to rail, the impact on carbon emissions could be different. Campaign for Better Transport and other environmental groups will argue that environmental benefit depends what else the Government does – if high speed rail is powered by renewable energy and comes with, say, taxation on short distance flights, affordable rail fares and a moratorium on new runways and big new roads, then it will overall be better environmentally than if it is built alongside new roads and runways and high and increasing fares. Upgraded services on existing lines for local passengers and freight could get further traffic off the roads, and planning policy could favour places like Milton Keynes on the lines to be relieved by the high speed line as the focus for new housing and warehousing. Even with these, though, it’s not clear that this package will be the best value way of cutting carbon emissions.
> 
> Will high speed rail help the economy?
> Many councils support high speed rail, and argue that it will help their cities recover from decline and attract new investment; against this, some will argue that it will suck new development even more to London and the South East and simply enlarge the London commuting area.
> 
> Will be it cost a lot to use it?
> All parties have said they want high speed rail to be affordable but in practice the temptation to have high fares as part of the financing may be too great. Government policy is already to have fares rises at 1% above inflation per year for ordinary rail services but South East Trains travellers are paying RPI+3% to finance the local services on High Speed 1 between London and Kent . Campaign for Better Transport is already running a campaign to reduce train fares which has been getting a lot of support from MPs of all parties.
> 
> What happens next?
> Given the controversy around high speed lines with a General Election approaching, the White Paper will only be the first stage in the debate. But it seems likely, given all party support for the concept, that whatever the election result the next government will promote some kind of high speed line with a bill in Parliament. Financing even this will be challenging, and if the Government has a small or no majority, such a bill will be vulnerable to lots of different lobbies. So Thursday’s announcement is just the start.


----------



## NCT

Just a little update - report released on Thursday can be accessed here.

In a nutshell the report suggests a Y-shaped network - single corridor between London and Birmingham then splitting into two branches to serve the West and East Coasts. Both London and Birmingham are to get city centre stations. Plans for links with HS1 and Heathrow are ambiguous at the moment.

Construction are not to start until 2017 though... If the Tories get in they might fiddle with the route by diverting the whole thing through Heathrow but they want to start construction in 2015.


----------



## 33Hz

Much as I hate to say it, I'm filing this one in the "believe it when I see it category". The announcement came just days after the postponement (some say cancelling) of the Hitachi Super Express order.

If we can't afford to replace some 35 year old express trains with decent new ones, what chance this happening?

If the government really wanted this to happen, not only would they have started years ago when the need was first identified, but they would have stopped producing endless reports that say the same thing and also not put the start of construction out to well past the end of the next parliament. HS1 was started within a year of them getting into power on plans that were just 3 years old. There is no need for this delay if they were serious. It's yet another election ploy, just like HSR was on the agenda last time.


----------



## makita09

^^ The IEP hasn't been postponed because we can't afford it, its because it is ridiculous and the ROSCOs don't want to buy them. Once they are pared down to just the electric variant the banks will be happy that they're buying a half-sensible product that isn't going to be a yoke around their neck for the next 35 years.

And what previous reports? This is the first ever government report into building a high speed line. All other previous government reports, like the 2007 white paper "Delivering a Sustainable Transport Policy" specifically said no plans to build a high speed line.

There have been other reports into building a high speed line, like Greenguage, Atkins and also Network Rail, none of whom are the government and therefore have had no power to implement any of it. The government first identified it as a possibility last year, it seems at the same time they realised electrification made sense.


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## 33Hz

Err, wasn't it going to be financed by the consortium and leased to the TOCs directly?

There's been a lot of waffle put about by people that think they know better than Hitachi on this subject. If you look at what they've previously published about the bi-mode version, I can't see why it won't work. And there is clearly a need for a diesel version - it will be a long time before wires get to the South West.

Even if you don't believe me on the IEP contract, look how long it's taken to get the Pendolino extensions - and even then not the full fleet.


As for the reports - the Atkins report you cite was commissioned by the SRA (then part of DfT and is still hosted on their site), there was also the 2004 CfIT report, also part of uk gov. Both came out with strong conclusions in favour of HSR and yet were swept under the carpet until government got what it wanted from the Eddington report.

Alistair Darling (then transport secretary) came out in favour of HSR* just before the 2005 election - yet look what happened in the following two years, and that was during the boom years! You'll forgive me if I seem a little skeptical given the age of austerity that is promised for after this one.


* http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/feb/04/transport.publicservices


----------



## makita09

Hitachi themselves altered the specification, and the DfT went for it, clearly they do know what they are doing, I'm not disagreeing with that. Nonetheless it is a ridiculous plan, specifically the bi-mode. Not quite as ridiculous as if Hitachi went with small diesel generators as specified.

Hitachi will do an extremely good job of making a bi-mode train that is really not what we need. It is the strategy that is all wrong. What should have been done is opting for the electric variant, and when the HSTs give up the ghost either cascade DEMUs from electrification projects meaning the MML Meridian and Virgin Voyager units or tender for another few units at that point. The network should be being progressively electrified, this should be the plan, indeed this is slowly turning into the plan as we speak.

Following this plan we get a vastly cheaper EMU, that is just as effective, and it doesn't have development costs for loads of other nonsense. We get more network electrified rather than bits of it no longer justifiable. The drawback is we end up with maybe 10 or 20 extra 5-car DEMUs which we may or may not need indefinitely.

As it is we will end up with expensive to buy and costly to repair due to the bespoke nature if the vehicles, not all that cheap to run except the electric variant, and good reasons to excuse from electrifying all the way to Penzance and Aberdeen. 

The consortium is just another ROSCO under this contract once the vehicles are in service, of which a very large element is the bank. Whoever is leasing the trains to the TOCs will want to be damn sure there is 30 years of life in the contract. Can the government guarantee to the consortium that it won't electrify to Penzance? The moment it finds itself asking that question it realises what a peculiar pickle the situation is - and how the bi-mode doesn't seem the silver bullet after all.

The vehicle itself will be fine. It is how it affects the general strategy that is the issue.

Re. the previous papers, not a single previous paper was comissioned by the government specifying "We want to build a high speed line, tell us how exactly to do it". All the others were general white papers in the general area of rail, including the eddington one. All such reports can be taken with a pinch of salt. When a government asks for technical plans on how to do something that is a different level of action. Still no guarantee - but the point is even if the government had chosen to do high speed after those previous reports, they would still have had to commission this one. This is the first real one.


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## ekkanh

*Conceptual High Speed Train, UK*

This is a proposition by the famous British design studio Priestmangoode, called "Mercury". The train would be around 400 meters long and travel at a speed of 225 mph (362 km/h). The nose is inspired from the former high speed plane Concorde. 



























high speed train in uk


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## ImBoredNow

^^Renders look amazing but I'm more impressed by the fact that it will be a HSR AND a Double Decker. That's double the passenger weight than current HSRs.


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## makita09

^^ It wouldn't be the first double decker HSR train



















from www.railwaytechnology.com


----------



## WatcherZero

Arent most of the Shinkansens double decker?

Outside France and Germany seems to be the norm rather than the exception.


----------



## Fatfield

I love double decked trains and would love to see them running in Britain. Unfortunately I don't think it will happen for at least 20 years or so due to costs.


----------



## K_

Fatfield said:


> I love double decked trains and would love to see them running in Britain. Unfortunately I don't think it will happen for at least 20 years or so due to costs.


Not on existing lines. But you can be certain that any new HSL build will be to a gauge allowing double deck trains. I suppose that a TGV Duplex can already reach st. Pancras International.


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## 2co2co

WatcherZero said:


> Arent most of the Shinkansens double decker?
> 
> Outside France and Germany seems to be the norm rather than the exception.


No, only E4 MAX Yamabiko is double decker atm.
There is E1 as well, but not used much


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## WatcherZero

Whenever I see people travelling from Tokyo to Osaka its always on a double.


----------



## Maarten Otto

K_ said:


> I suppose that a TGV Duplex can already reach st. Pancras International.


Yes they can and now that Eurotunnel safety regulations have been softened the road is clear to start using them when needed. (Ash cloud, closure of airspace for whatever reason or just charter market)


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

ImBoredNow said:


> ^^Renders look amazing but I'm more impressed by the fact that it will be a HSR AND a Double Decker. That's double the passenger weight than current HSRs.


I'm just impressed by the fact it is a double decker, because there aren't double deckers in UK due to their height limits


----------



## AlexNL

I like the renders of the interior better than those of the outside. It looks very luxurious and spacy, even in a relatively cramped area such as a train.

These trains will never run on the 'older' classic British tracks as they have a loading gauge which is too narrow for double decker trains to even fit. Only the newly built HS1 and future extensions such as HS2 and perhaps other new tracks will be able to accomodate these trains as they (will) have the European loading gauge which does allow double decker trains.


----------



## Republica

is the wcml not big enough for double deckers now?


----------



## poshbakerloo

Ok, well this will never happen


----------



## makita09

Republica said:


> is the wcml not big enough for double deckers now?


No, its 3.896m (w10), i think UIC B is 4.15m


----------



## Momo1435

WatcherZero said:


> Whenever I see people travelling from Tokyo to Osaka its always on a double.


It's already quite some time ago that the 100 series sets with 2 double deck cars out of the 18 in the set where used on the Tokaido Shinkansen from Tokyo to Osaka. After 2003 the whole line has been completely single deck, the double deck E1 and E4 can't even run on this part of the network.


As for this design study, it's nice but it should be treated as a design study. It's nice for the portfolio of the bureau but to start with it will have some problems with the European Safety regulations if they want to turn it into reality. But who knows, maybe we will see some elements of the design in future trains, I see some interesting design solutions that would be interesting to see if they can be used in a real train.


----------



## bluemeansgo

WatcherZero said:


> Whenever I see people travelling from Tokyo to Osaka its always on a double.


Those aren't traveling to Osaka. The double decker is used for Shinkansen commuters who take the train from Outlying towns to Tokyo. Not trains between Osaka and Tokyo. The double-decker looks like a tall 700-series, though.









Tokyo - Osaka services are Nozomi, Hikari and Kodama. Super Express, Express and Slow, using the 700-series (duck-billed nose single-decker), N700 (Tilting version of the same) and 300-series.


----------



## Republica

makita09 said:


> No, its 3.896m (w10), i think UIC B is 4.15m


i thought the route had been cleared during the upgrade, sounds like it wasnt though. and of course if it had i would have expected double deckers to already be in action.


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## leadbelly

This may be British designed, but it will never be seen on Britains dreadful rail network.


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## bobke90

And which manufacter would built this type of train? In the UK there are no trainmanufacters. So, it will never built.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

makita09 said:


> Don't bother - this has all been discussed at length here. There is no argument you can make that will fit with his world view on the redundency of steel wheel railways.
> 
> I urge everybody not to discuss Maglev here, as this is about HS2 and not Maglev. If you want to find out why the Department for Transport, Network Rail, ATOC, Greenguage 21 and HS2 ltd have ruled out Maglev, bore yourself with that link above. The pointless argument has been trashed out to death atthe above link, as well as on this thread.


You still cannot win the arguments that I have presented.


----------



## makita09

YesToHS2 said:


> I love the way critics use HS1 as an argument against HSR. Yes from all accounts it's not as was as accepted but as was just mentions it was finished around the time of the economic downturn. I don't see selling a 30 year lease for £2.1bn as an abject failure. The government have the opportunity to sell another lease in another 30 years which will probably cover the cost of construction alone.


Yeah exactly. For a line that has been open 3 years, with domestic services on it only 1 year old, in an economic downturn lasting a few years, to sell a 30-year concession for £2.1bn is a fair vote of confidence in the potential of the infrastructure. Especially as there were other similar rival bids meaning that the winners aren't likely to be lunatics with too much money.

Eurostar are to expand their services, DB are to introduce new services. Eurotunnel and GB Railfreight are looking to start running freight at night. Southeastern aren't likely to reduce services, just recieve a bit of govt support until the new residential and commercial areas are built near Ebbfleet station, and Gravesend station is improved.


----------



## 33Hz

Agreed. Please do not turn the thread into yet another maglev vs steel wheel debate. The intention here is to discuss developments with HS2, which for better or worse has been decided will be a normal HSR line. There are sound technical, economic and strategic reasons for this.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

33Hz said:


> Agreed. Please do not turn the thread into yet another maglev vs steel wheel debate. The intention here is to discuss developments with HS2, which for better or worse has been decided will be a normal HSR line. There are sound technical, economic and strategic reasons for this.


The final decision has not been made concerning HS2 and whether it has sound technical and/or economical reasons is highly debatable since I can even make holes into it.

One thing for certain is, a high speed mass ground transit will be beneficial for distance of 200Km ~ 1,000Km whether it be conventional wheel on rail or maglev. The question is which is more beneficial in the long run considering future compatibility, maintenance, scalability and, overall economy.

You certainly do not what to be stuck with a product that is near the end of it's shelf life.


----------



## K_

SamuraiBlue said:


> You certainly do not what to be stuck with a product that is near the end of it's shelf life.


Well, steel on steel rail technologiy certainly isn't at the end of it's shelf life...


----------



## 33Hz

You also do not want to be stuck with a product that no one else is using. We’ve been here before too many times…

Transrapid could not sell their product in Germany – twice – even at a time when “made here” still counted for a lot.

They could not sell a national system to the Chinese when they had a 1 trillion dollar budget and where land costs are minimal.


In order for Transrapid to be cost-competative with HSR in the the UK, it requires an accounting trick of building the line on stilts so that the air rights can be leased from land holders and the entire right of way costs can be moved off the bottom line and into future Op-Ex.

For reasons I’ve said above, HS2 (3, 4, etc) needs to be a phased project so that cash flows can be managed and the country is not lumbered with massive interest payments on a big-bang approach loan. Maglev cannot offer that.

I do not deny that it is amazing technology, but there is no way this is going to happen in the UK unless Transrapid offers to underwrite the construction of an entire national network themselves and offers a cast iron guarantee that they will be around to service the infrastructure for the next 100 years. How realistic is that?


I’m sorry, but the window of opportunity for this closed around about 2006. Any further attempts by UK Ultraspeed or Transrapid to change this decision will at best fall on deaf ears and at worst delay things by a further four years. The Transport Secretary has distanced himself from the UK Ultraspeed route choice and I don’t see him performing a u-turn.


Now can we please get back on-topic?


----------



## SamuraiBlue

K_ said:


> Well, steel on steel rail technologiy certainly isn't at the end of it's shelf life...


Well it will be at a stand still at most since there is no more room for potential speed gain due to economic limitation compared to other technology.



33Hz said:


> You also do not want to be stuck with a product that no one else is using. We’ve been here before too many times…
> 
> Transrapid could not sell their product in Germany – twice – even at a time when “made here” still counted for a lot.
> 
> They could not sell a national system to the Chinese when they had a 1 trillion dollar budget and where land costs are minimal.
> 
> 
> In order for Transrapid to be cost-competative with HSR in the the UK, it requires an accounting trick of building the line on stilts so that the air rights can be leased from land holders and the entire right of way costs can be moved off the bottom line and into future Op-Ex.
> 
> For reasons I’ve said above, HS2 (3, 4, etc) needs to be a phased project so that cash flows can be managed and the country is not lumbered with massive interest payments on a big-bang approach loan. Maglev cannot offer that.
> 
> I do not deny that it is amazing technology, but there is no way this is going to happen in the UK unless Transrapid offers to underwrite the construction of an entire national network themselves and offers a cast iron guarantee that they will be around to service the infrastructure for the next 100 years. How realistic is that?
> 
> 
> I’m sorry, but the window of opportunity for this closed around about 2006. Any further attempts by UK Ultraspeed or Transrapid to change this decision will at best fall on deaf ears and at worst delay things by a further four years. The Transport Secretary has distanced himself from the UK Ultraspeed route choice and I don’t see him performing a u-turn.
> 
> 
> Now can we please get back on-topic?


Again the final decision has not been made.
Conventional wheel on rail cannot guarantee promise that had been made by HS2 limited either.
They promised for a 400Km/h train so they can mow through Rural England based on a future train set that may or may not come to reality. As I said 400Km/h conventional HS trains are technologically feasible but it is a poor choice economically making it difficult for corporation to invest. 
If there are no train sets meeting the specifications as promised at the point of inauguration then the whole project would be a sign as a waste of taxpayers money for protesters which will condemn any further project for expansion in which case Britain will be stuck with a half baked plan which would not solve many of the promises made.


----------



## K_

33Hz said:


> You also do not want to be stuck with a product that no one else is using. We’ve been here before too many times…


Indeed.

One serious problem with products like transrapid (and other niche transportation technologies like monorails, guided light transit, translohr, Val) is that they are proprietary.
That means you're at the mercy of a single supplier.
With conventional rail you don't have that problem.


----------



## 33Hz

The decision was made in 2007. Despite what UK Ultraspeed may say, the consultation period into next year is about finalised route options and economic factors, not the fundamental technology of the system.

The reason this decision was arrived at is that on a like for like basis, maglev was found to be twice as expensive as HSR. You may protest this, but UK Ultraspeed have been always been very careful with their wording and they do not include land costs - prefering (as I said above) to elevate the track and then lease the right of way. Well, HSR could do that to, but the reason it is not being proposed is down to cost, asthetics and emissions from all that concrete.

The game is up. Please try somewhere else.


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## SamuraiBlue

K_ said:


> Indeed.
> 
> One serious problem with products like transrapid (and other niche transportation technologies like monorails, guided light transit, translohr, Val) is that they are proprietary.
> That means you're at the mercy of a single supplier.
> With conventional rail you don't have that problem.


Somewhat true although I have not heard of monorails being proprietary.
JR maglev system is also not completely proprietary since the basic technology is open source. The biggest proprietary asset would be the metallurgic super conductive material but then again most of the motors within HSR are as well. 
Switching terminals and other supportive resources also have patents on them but so do most of the supportive system in conventional HSR as well. 

The problem with Transrapid system is that it is a total system of both guideway and train set while JR system is not and can be broken down to individual components.


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## SamuraiBlue

33Hz said:


> The decision was made in 2007. Despite what UK Ultraspeed may say, the consultation period into next year is about finalised route options and economic factors, not the fundamental technology of the system.
> 
> The reason this decision was arrived at is that on a like for like basis, maglev was found to be twice as expensive as HSR. You may protest this, but UK Ultraspeed have been always been very careful with their wording and they do not include land costs - prefering (as I said above) to elevate the track and then lease the right of way. Well, HSR could do that to, but the reason it is not being proposed is down to cost, asthetics and emissions from all that concrete.
> 
> The game is up. Please try somewhere else.


Sorry but the game is not up since you can count me as an opposite opinion against HS2 based on my knowledge on maglev and conventional HSR. 
I firmly believe the plan should be reconsidered and drawn from scratch.


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## 33Hz

SamuraiBlue said:


> Sorry but the game is not up since you can count me as an opposite opinion against HS2 based on my knowledge on maglev and conventional HSR.
> I firmly believe the plan should be reconsidered and drawn from scratch.


I'm sure that the British government will give your views all the consideration they deserve.


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## YesToHS2

I'm sure maglev is a great but I think advocates of maglev are missing a fundamental point of HS2. It will use classic compatible trains which will be able to run on the WCML, this is a major selling point as HS2 will be able to be better integrated in the current network. If you use a maglev system the people of the north will not have access to HS2 until it reaches Manchester and Leeds then places such as Liverpool will be written out of the HS2 equation. I am not going to argue about the merits of each choice. I will leave you with one thought though, does anybody remember Brunel's far superior 7 ft gauge? 

Please can we return this to a debate on HS2 as is currently planned.


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## bluemeansgo

^^

Note: The Japanese Mag-lev system IS indeed steel wheels on Steel tracks. The wheels retract when it reaches around 150km/h and it floats about 10cm above the rails. 

The fact that there are rails also means that a future hybrid "could" potentially run on existing electrified lines... or the line could be converted to a regular pantograph system if need be.

As for the "tilt" of the Tokaido Shinkansen. It was needed in order to allow the trains to go at a full speed of 270km/h on that portion of the line. The original line was built at a 2500m track radius and for 210km/h max speeds. 

The Sanyo Line (West of Osaka) was built for much higher speeds (4000m track radius) and travels regularly at 300km/h. I'm not sure about it's max design speed.

Tohoku Line's design speed was targetted at 360km/h, but because of noise concerns, it was scaled back. Japan has a lot more tunnels and the strictest noise regulations in the world. The tunnels are also why they have some of the most interesting and dare I say some of the nicest, designs for their trains.

I think the JR mag-lev is supposed to be 10,000m but I can't remember where i saw that. 

Chinese HSR is 8,000m I believe.

California's HSR is supposed to be 6,500m. (Planned speed is 360km/h)

*What is HS2's track radius?*

Remember, the most VALUABLE part of these lines is the ROW (Right of Way). 100 years from now, your grandchildren will thank you for putting in a nice straight ROW that they can run Mag-Lev (or maybe even anti-gravity trains) down.


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## 33Hz

bluemeansgo said:


> Note: The Japanese Mag-lev system IS indeed steel wheels on Steel tracks. The wheels retract when it reaches around 150km/h and it floats about 10cm above the rails.


I thought it had rubber tired wheels, or did they change that?



> I think the JR mag-lev is supposed to be 10,000m but I can't remember where i saw that.


Wow, that's a lot. Fine if you are putting most of the line under mountains I suppose, but quite a lot more than the Transrapid people claim.




> *What is HS2's track radius?*


There is no hard and fast number, they just say this:

_The minimum radius of curvature shall be determined on the basis of line speed, cant and cant deficiency applied._

From page 19, here: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/technicalappendix/pdf/report.pdf



> Remember, the most VALUABLE part of these lines is the ROW (Right of Way). 100 years from now, your grandchildren will thank you for putting in a nice straight ROW that they can run Mag-Lev (or maybe even anti-gravity trains) down.



Absolutely. Imagine if Brunel and his contemporaries had built their lines according to the top speed of the trains at the time.


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## bluemeansgo

33Hz said:


> I thought it had rubber tired wheels, or did they change that?


That's from memory and I remember seeing a video where the wheels retract. I can't find it now.


> Wow, that's a lot. Fine if you are putting most of the line under mountains I suppose, but quite a lot more than the Transrapid people claim.


A lot of the line IS underground, which reduces the need to worry about the "tunnel boom" effect. Japan is an island of Vocanoes, after all. And sorry, I was mistaken. The ORIGINAL Test Track in Miyazaki had a minimum 10,000m turn radius. The New[er] test track in Yamanashi (which will become part of the line) has a track radius of 8000m. source

Remember the Japanese are typically VERY conservative. Which is why trains the Japanese licensed to run at ~250km/h were bought by China and subsequently upped to 300km/h. They typically build a 25% margin of error into their calculations when it comes to max speed.

I don't think the 8000m number is NECESSARY for that speed, but they were burned by making the Tokaido Line only 2500m and probably want to allow for MUCH faster operation in the future. Remember, JR's Maglev technology can run at MUCH higher speeds than transrapid trains much more safely.

Still, 8000m is a pretty decent number to future proof a corridor, whether it's HSR or Maglev. For UK, I think I'd like to see a minimum of 6,500m, but ideally 8000m for a track radius, especially when you get out into the countryside.


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## SamuraiBlue

bluemeansgo said:


> That's from memory and I remember seeing a video where the wheels retract. I can't find it now.
> 
> A lot of the line IS underground, which reduces the need to worry about the "tunnel boom" effect. Japan is an island of Vocanoes, after all. And sorry, I was mistaken. The ORIGINAL Test Track in Miyazaki had a minimum 10,000m turn radius. The New[er] test track in Yamanashi (which will become part of the line) has a track radius of 8000m. source
> 
> Remember the Japanese are typically VERY conservative. Which is why trains the Japanese licensed to run at ~250km/h were bought by China and subsequently upped to 300km/h. They typically build a 25% margin of error into their calculations when it comes to max speed.
> 
> I don't think the 8000m number is NECESSARY for that speed, but they were burned by making the Tokaido Line only 2500m and probably want to allow for MUCH faster operation in the future. Remember, JR's Maglev technology can run at MUCH higher speeds than transrapid trains much more safely.
> 
> Still, 8000m is a pretty decent number to future proof a corridor, whether it's HSR or Maglev. For UK, I think I'd like to see a minimum of 6,500m, but ideally 8000m for a track radius, especially when you get out into the countryside.


The study you posted is pretty old with examples that are two generation in the past.
The test track's minimum radius does not necessarily relate to the design minimum since the test tracks were planned to be part of the Chuo Shinkansen line. (I do not know what the minimum radius is for JR type maglevs which are different from Transrapid's)

The 25% is not an error margin, it is a safety margin safety margin designated by JR.


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## bluemeansgo

SamuraiBlue said:


> The study you posted is pretty old with examples that are two generation in the past.
> The test track's minimum radius does not necessarily relate to the design minimum since the test tracks were planned to be part of the Chuo Shinkansen line. (I do not know what the minimum radius is for JR type maglevs which are different from Transrapid's)
> 
> The 25% is not an error margin, it is a safety margin safety margin designated by JR.


True, the study is old. 

However, the Yamanashi Test track was planned a long time ago and has been in use fo 14 years now. Also, as far as i know, The JR Maglev will be called the "Chuo Shinkansen" when it is done... essentially it IS the Chuo line.

You're correct about the semantics of 25% being a safety margin, which is still a conservative margin.


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## makita09

bluemeansgo said:


> Remember, the most VALUABLE part of these lines is the ROW (Right of Way). 100 years from now, your grandchildren will thank you for putting in a nice straight ROW that they can run Mag-Lev (or maybe even anti-gravity trains) down.


7200 metres.

http://www.hs2.org.uk/assets/x/77048

(Page 17)



> Minimum desirable
> radius of curvature:
> •
> 200 kph: 1800m
> •
> 300 kph: 4050m
> •
> 360 kph: 5900m
> •
> 400 kph: 7200m


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## Dobbo

I have to say the most interesting things that I can think of would be the station layouts. By that I mean there are compelling cases for (at major cities) having a city centre station, a parkway station and an airport station. 

Of course, in Birmingham the airport/parkway station is combined and the city centre stop is on a spur. For somewhere Like Manchester could the mainline pretty much plough through the centre of town in a tunnel or would the Spur need to be used again? I am not sure of the arguments as to the pros and cons of each method (other than cost) and it would be interesting to hear some thoughts.

I feel that the developing of High Speed Lines in the UK gives a great opportunity to integrate these presumably new stations with existing or planned metro/tram systems in cities such as Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Nottingham.

It is good that the government seem to be supporting getting the line to Sheffield and Leeds as soon as possible and I would hope that by that time the political will and economic situation/business case will be in place to allow expansion to Scotland, and possibly a line towards Cardiff (although thinking there seems to be that the great western railway can be upgraded to high speed and has little capacity problems at present).

In time, the Eastern leg could have its own dedicated route to London (I.e. not via Birmingham) and could perhaps bypass Euston and have Stratford as its London stop via Standstead airport and connect to HS1 - in effect also acting as a London equivalent of the Paris "Interconnexion" LGV.

Should the French construct the LGV Picardie, Paris-London Times could be cut to close to 1.30m - which would make the train competitive on routes for Paris from as far a field as Manchester, Brum and Leeds. 

Undertaking to construct a network as extensive as this would for me be one of the most important things the current generation can do. Reducing reliance on fossil fuels and reducing aircraft travel would be two of the major plus points to come from this. It would require more probably nuclear power stations, but these are very much in the pipeline and are environmentally sound provided they do not go into meltdown!

I sympathise massively with people who may be affected by this construction and agree that they must be properly compensated. However, they will not be able to stop a project of national significance - hence the environmental arguments. In the long run I am sure their kids and grand kids would appreciate the sacrifice...


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## YesToHS2

Any more supporters for HS2 in it's current form out there? The fact is, it won't be mag-lev so people in support of progress and who can see the need for upgrades should get behind the plans for HS2 as they are now. It's too important to let atavists "working on a local level" (their own words) stop it in it's tracks (pardon the pun).


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## K_

Dobbo said:


> Should the French construct the LGV Picardie, Paris-London Times could be cut to close to 1.30m - which would make the train competitive on routes for Paris from as far a field as Manchester, Brum and Leeds.


Actualyl the train could already be competitive on these routes. As soon as trip times are below 5 hours train can get a share of the market. That's why DB wants to run a train from Frankfurt to London.
The biggest problem however (and what killed the Regional Eurostars) are not of technical nature.
A Paris - London - Birmingham train would only make sense if it were also available to London - Birmingham passengers. As long as the current rules for Eurostar however prohibit this the best we can hope for is continuing availability of through ticketing.


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## makita09

Dobbo said:


> For somewhere Like Manchester could the mainline pretty much plough through the centre of town in a tunnel or would the Spur need to be used again? I am not sure of the arguments as to the pros and cons of each method (other than cost) and it would be interesting to hear some thoughts.


I think that will have to be on a spur too.

On the UK forum I posted my route for a spur so I'll re post it here.



makita09 said:


> Reposting my GoogleEarth HSR network south Manchester section, Salif has PM'd me for it.
> 
> Surprisingly a lot of it can go next to the existing line without eating up much non-railway land. The big problem is Stockport, where I've opted for a tunnel underneath the station, which immediately rises out onto another viaduct next the existing one. Unfortunately this means the new viaduct cannot match the height of the present one all the way across, and may not look as pretty as it could.
> 
> Manchester Piccaddilly has a redundant section of the station that can be reused as a 4 platform 400m HS and HS International terminal. One or two adjacent platforms could also be turned over to this and extended to 400m, I would say only 1. It is unlikely XC services will ever need to be longer than the existing platforms.
> 
> Basic concept - HS2 bypasses Manchester much like the WCML, HS2 is served by a spur from the Crewe area and serving the airport. 2-3 tph to London would use this, 1 tph to London would go via Stoke. Stoke would then also get 1 or 2 WCML stoppers to London a la London Midland. 2 tph HS XC services would also use the HS2 spur from Crewe, and in my dreams these would also be proper HS units and the XC network is electrified and upgraded. The HS2 spur is 250km/h at the southern end, 200km/h through much of the southern suburbs, slowing to 160km/h as it nears the terminus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> Airport HS station underground. There is also a conventional speed spur from the surface station that joins the HS2 route as the mainline currently has no access to the airport. Ignore the pink triangles, they are for curve radius calculations.
> 
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> Along existing Crewe line. There is space either side for one extra track to make 4 tracks. The conventional line is shifted over to the southern 2 tracks. Demolished buildings are the red blocks.
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> The (no doubt listed) building next to the river needs to go, the larger warehouse behind it doesn't as HS2 can fit over the existing road between it and the present railway, and the road remains as HS2 is above it. I've taken great pains to confirm that HS2 can go underneath Stockport station and still come out above this little road, and this is due to the height of the existing station above the river.
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> HS2 switches sides as the HS platforms at Picc are on the east side. Cut and cover tunnel. From the existing 4-track layout one extra track either side are laid down, and the existing tracks are shifted west one track (upwards in the pic)
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> The existing Manchester airport route joins. In this concept they also then get an extra pair of tracks along side the existing lines. This is not necessary as part of the HS2 spur concept, but is part of my wider Manchester network enhancement.
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> 
> This looks like chaos, as it includes the HS transpenine route, and a new Manchester Crossrail, which goes under Piccaddilly to Salford. The HS2 concept doesn't require any of this, but it explains the slightly curious alignment of the HS2 spur when viewed on its own. If the grand tunnel project is not built then the amount of land taken for the spur is less.
> 
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> 
> As you can probably see, the amount of destruction is fairly limited, with only one or two residences destroyed, and only about 5 having some of their gardens pinched. The rest of buildings that are in the way are warehouses, which are much easier move as businesses tend to be much less precious and don't care as much, especially if someone builds them a sparkling new warehouse elsewhere.


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## YesToHS2

*
Yes To HS2*

*The case for HS2*


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## Dothog

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-11794586


> Staffordshire meeting over high-speed rail plans
> 
> *Proposals for high-speed rail will be discussed by residents at a meeting in a Staffordshire village hall.*
> The county council said it organised the event at Whittington to gather information that would help formulate its response to the government’s plan.
> 
> It has said plans do not “stack up” for Staffordshire after weighing benefits against the negative impact on people.
> 
> North Staffordshire Chamber of Commerce has said it would be a disaster if the line did not stop in the county.
> 
> *‘Points of view’*
> 
> The council said detailed public consultation would get under way in the new year over plans for an initiative between London, the West Midlands and the north of England.
> 
> The discussion at 1900 GMT on Friday at Whittington Village Hall would explore issues for Staffordshire’s economy, the environment and local people, the authority added.
> 
> Cabinet member for infrastructure and regeneration Robert Marshall said: “We want to hear all points of view and perspectives, before we make a formal response to the Government consultation...
> 
> “We want to ensure that Staffordshire’s final submission to government is comprehensive and balanced, informed by local, regional and national priorities and perspectives.”
> 
> The council said the meeting was the first of a number of public events it would be organising in the months ahead.


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## YesToHS2

Here we go again. The "it won't benefit me so lets stop it" protest. Forgetting the fact that the increase tax revenue, and there will be increased tax revenue will benefit the whole county. And why should the people that need a high speed no, just need a seat on a train be held to ransom by land owners.


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## endrity

I think its more of a case of "we want it so badly, that we want it stop at our place". Very different attitude compare to the Chiltern-type people.


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## bluemeansgo

*Nimbyism isn't only in tue UK*

Interestingly, when they were going to run a Shinkansen bullet train from downtown Tokyo to the then new Narita... the farmers were successful in blocking it. Even though construction had already basically started and typically trains run in elevated guideways (to maintain access to the valuable land beneath) 

Of course, land owners have a lot of say in Japan and in this case especially, there was absolutely no benefit to the residents. 

In the end the ROW is now used for an express train (160km) which does the trip in 36 minutes. It's the fastest non-Shinkansen train in Japan.. But Narita is 70km away. 

The point is, even rail-friendly nations like Japan can derail plans if not all the stakeholders are considered. Most people just want to be heard and if they feel like they're being ignored they WILL fight.


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## YesToHS2

Well some one called Adam Brookes has aka Adambro (Yes I can find and publish peoples names as well) decided that YesToHS2 is "insignificant and has no place on wikipedia, yet the links to protest web sites remain. Fair?

"(rmv YesToHS2.co.uk, insignificant, looks like one man's blog, that man being x (aka User:x) who has been adding the link)"


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## K_

endrity said:


> I think its more of a case of "we want it so badly, that we want it stop at our place". Very different attitude compare to the Chiltern-type people.


One could give them a station. The Tokyo - Osaka Shinkansen has stations every 20 km or so.


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## 33Hz

YesToHS2 said:


> Well some one called Adam Brookes has aka Adambro (Yes I can find and publish peoples names as well) decided that YesToHS2 is "insignificant and has no place on wikipedia, yet the links to protest web sites remain. Fair?
> 
> "(rmv YesToHS2.co.uk, insignificant, looks like one man's blog, that man being x (aka User:x) who has been adding the link)"


Can you provide a URL for this comment?


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## YesToHS2

I'm not concerned about my name being out, an article of mine was published with my name and is searchable on google. But when you up my name, user name and campaign together with a rather offensive comment that is what has p*ssed me off.

As my site can not be included I got him to delete the two protest sites using the wiki link policy back to him that he referred me to.

I'm not quite sure what this page is? It came up on a google search. Google e-mails when even anything to do with HS2 is mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...rev&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


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## 33Hz

I think maybe to counter the "one man's blog" accusations, you need to put up some guest articles.

I also think this guy is just a wikipedia busybody and it's not some deliberate editing by the anti campaign.


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## YesToHS2

I didn't appreciate his tone at all. Think it's sorted now. At least I got him to take down the protest sites. 

If anybody want's to contribute they are more than welcome. the blog is getting a lot more positive comments with people making their own points. It's no so easy to track down people who comment anonymously though to ask if they would like to contribute further. 

from now on if anybody has an article or piece of research they would like to submit I will post it along with a credit to them. e-mails to [email protected].


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## 33Hz

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...hreaten-revolt-over-high-speed-rail-link.html


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## Pansori

I am sorry if this has been asked already but isn't there a way to upgrade the existing lines (which, if I am not mistaken, allow the maximum speed of 200km/h) to something like 250km/h or 300km/h in some stretches? Wouldn't that have a more profound economic sense than splashing tens of billions of £ on something that would only marginally improve the situation yet cost the fortune and would hardly deliver the economic benefit to the country? If my memory is not fooling me I have read somewhere that the track itself in some stretches could allow trains to go faster if not some minor issues with configuration of trains? Or am I wrong and the existing main lines to Northern England and Scotland are already working at maximum speed that can be achieved on them?


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## YesToHS2

@33hz, a case of yet more scaremongering, I wonder who the Telegraph support on this argument? I just hope that people realise that these MPs are merely trying to save their seats, look which constituencies they represent, funny that. 

@Pansori

The maximum speed that can be theoretically operated on the WCML is 140mph on small sections which wouldn't give much of a time benefit. The only alternative package put forward would cost around £5bn if you factor in the new rolling stock required. If that didn't work the next stage would be to spend a further £7bn. The WCML is too complicated and has too many different services operating on it, the WCML has longer distance commuter, local commuter and freight services operating on it. No amount of tinkering will even make it even close to being as effective as HS2 will be.


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## NCT

Pansori said:


> I am sorry if this has been asked already but isn't there a way to upgrade the existing lines (which, if I am not mistaken, allow the maximum speed of 200km/h) to something like 250km/h or 300km/h in some stretches? Wouldn't that have a more profound economic sense than splashing tens of billions of £ on something that would only marginally improve the situation yet cost the fortune and would hardly deliver the economic benefit to the country? If my memory is not fooling me I have read somewhere that the track itself in some stretches could allow trains to go faster if not some minor issues with configuration of trains? Or am I wrong and the existing main lines to Northern England and Scotland are already working at maximum speed that can be achieved on them?


The primary reason for building the new line is capacity reaching limit on the existing lines rather than a pure pursuit of speed. Since you are building a new line anyway you might as well build it high speed with little additional cost.

The West Coast Main Line, which the first phases of HS2 is to complement, is running dangerously close to capacity. It has already received an upgrade, with Pendolino trains already running at 125 mph for many stretches. However due to the requirement to run stopping commuter services, a faster intercity service would actually increase speed differentials and reduce line capacity. This is why it makes sense to shove the intercity services onto a whole new line enabling more commuter services to be run on the classic lines.


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## 33Hz

One of the organisations that the "anti" crowd like to quote is Transport Watch. One of their "fact sheets" aims to show that HSR is more polluting than air.

The following is a useful investigation into Transport Watch: http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2006/08/completely_off_the_rails_1.html


Also, they've been reprimanded for the advertisements in the past: http://www.asa.org.uk/Complaints-an...ions/2005/11/Transport_Watch-UK/CS_40464.aspx


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## bluemeansgo

Pansori said:


> I am sorry if this has been asked already but isn't there a way to upgrade the existing lines (which, if I am not mistaken, allow the maximum speed of 200km/h) to something like 250km/h or 300km/h in some stretches? Wouldn't that have a more profound economic sense than splashing tens of billions of £ on something that would only marginally improve the situation yet cost the fortune and would hardly deliver the economic benefit to the country? If my memory is not fooling me I have read somewhere that the track itself in some stretches could allow trains to go faster if not some minor issues with configuration of trains? Or am I wrong and the existing main lines to Northern England and Scotland are already working at maximum speed that can be achieved on them?


There reaches a point where upgrading is more expensive than new infrastructure.

Remember, the slower trains are the less people are willing to pay, the fewer trains you can run, and the more money you have to sink into a line that can never live up to its capacity. You have to pay train staff more money (longer time) for the same fare.

Long-distance SLOW rail costs a lot of money to run. 
Long-distance High Speed rail costs a lot of capital to build.

In the end, High speed rail is far more future proof than upgrading the line.

An analogy could be made with airplanes. Is it better to upgrade the old less efficient 747s that you have, or purchase new efficient smaller 787s in order to avoid the congested hubs? 

Is it better to eke out more bandwidth from ADSL lines and decades old copper wire, or invest in putting fiber runs into your city? 

High Speed rail has to be seen as an investment, not a simple matter of a speed bump for rail.



K_ said:


> One could give them a station. The Tokyo - Osaka Shinkansen has stations every 20 km or so.


Partly true, probably closer to 30-40km though. . Of course, only the Kodama trains make every stop. Nozomi makes maybe three stops the whole way.


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## sotavento

SamuraiBlue said:


> It's not about comfort, it's about safety.
> The difference of cant deficiency is based on two factors one is comfort as you mentioned the other is about safety not noted by many conventional HSR advocates.
> The limitation in cant for HSR compared to maglev is because when conventional HSR makes an emergency stop within a curve it faces a possibility of toppling over since center of gravity is offset by the difference in super elevation of one rail to the other. This is self explanatory by the difference of cant between freight and passenger where freight will have higher center of gravity due to stacking of freight within cabin to maximize capacity.
> Maglev does not have this limitation since Transrapid system remains elevated even if there is a power shortage and JR system can just elevate the coils while maintaining horizontal grounds.
> The Shanghai transrapid system has a cant of 12 degrees and no one has complained yet.


Conventional tilting high speed trains can have a cant of 6+6 = 12 also ... performance gains due to compatible active tilting can be much more cost-efective than uncompatible technologies such as dedicated maglev trackage.

Think of the continuous and all-ever refusal to adhere to the all-mighty maglev as simply as this ... what would have happened to all other major breaktroughts in railway/mass transport if they were completely oblivious to standards , compatibility and evolution ???

Motorways didn't replace the old dirt roads ... they evolved from them ... :cheers:


----------



## sotavento

Maarten Otto said:


> Why? capacity on long distance isn't the issue... capacity on those inter urban connections is. And where do you want to terminate those services in the London area.... Paddington? If you need 8 platforms for the HS2 services.... you can no longer handle that many trains on the Great Western mainline simply becouse the space is requred by a toy train the UK can not afford.
> 
> And I don't expect the Pendolino services to/from Euston to be suspended once HS2 opens....


Just demolish "current" Euston and build further back ... the 400m needed are there ... without even needing to bring down the glass towers. :grin:


----------



## makita09

sotavento said:


> Wimbledon-Watford-Leightonbuzzard-Roade = ~85km long section of 4 tracks ... a lot could be made to improve this section
> + fly-overs (specially north of roade where the 4 tracks Diverge to Nothingham and Rugby)


The line is four tracks from Euston all the way to Rugby and on to Tamworth and Rugely - roughly 200km. The slow pair of tracks diverge and head through Northampton, the fast ones bypass. The fast lines pass through Rugby entirely grade-separated, so I'm not sure what you're thinking - its already done.



> + regional rail stations (its lacking astonishingly in thise)
> + speed upgrades ... a dedicated HSR signaling and trackage upgrades to 250/300 km/h in some sections ?


Would require ETRMS over the entire route. London to Rugby will have a few sections possible for 225km/h, most of it is at best 200km/h which is what it is already at. Much of Rugby to Warrington and Preston - Lancester would be upgradable to 225km/h, very unlikely anything more - any such stretches would bew too short for the train to take advantage of.



> ^^ In this section the "usual" 2 middle FAST tracks at 200/250km/h +2 outer slow tracks at 160/200km/h would void the need for a "pure breed HS2" in this area :dunno:


Its (from west to east) fast-fast-slow-slow south of Rugby.

North of Rugby its fast-slow-fast slow for a bit, then slow fast fast slow, then slow-fast-fast-fast.



> Roade-Rugby (+ Roade-Northampton-Rugby) = ~35km
> + there's a NEED to build aditional tracks here ... 2x double tracks lacking in capacity ... in the direct route theres not even stations/platforms or even aditional tracks for faster trains to overtake slower traffic ...


No fast trains go via Northapton. The only things that go here are the local/regional 100mph trains, and freight. There is no need for overtaking, well, not for what you're thinking anyway.



> Rugby-coventry-Balsal-birminghamIntl = ~35km
> + here I would just simplu turn the double track into a 4 track from Rugby to the edge of Coventry(10km) ... then build a bypass in the south alongside the Coventry airport(10km) linking with the route to Lemington Spa... recover the 6km of abandoned trackage that exists there and then quaduplicating the remaining 10km into BMI
> 
> BMI-birmingham = ~12km of very few chances of quadruplication ... :dunno:


This is the hardest bit, this is what HS2 will relieve, allowing much higher capacity between Birm and Coventry.



> ^^ A completellyh different aproach would be to re.quadruplicate Birmingham-solihull (the space of the 2 removed tracks is still there) and then invest a large sum in a direct connection between Solihull and Balsal (10km?) ... probably a deep tunnel under Solihull or something like that ... and the old railway terminus at Birmingham is still there and the 4x 200m long platforms would be suficient for a dedicated Birmingham-london service :cheers:


Where on earth is Balsal? Is that in England?

The problem with the Solihull route is that it is going in slightly the wrong direction. Tunnels is all very well and good but a large investment to get a 100mph line, when the existing one is 125mph.



> Removing those London-Birmingham trains from the ECML as soon as possible could relieve the regional rail and some of those "up north" intercity ... thus the HS2 could proceed directly north from Coventry(bypass) or BMI.


You mean the WCML, not the ECML.

On the other hand ... if it is liberated from Lo-Birmingan and Liverpool/Manchester/Glasgow traffic then the 2/3/4 tracks ECML can start to be a realmajor regional/intercity corridor... instead of it's current state as a virgin-pendulino rush hour traffic jam (12 to 15 tph in each track) :cheers:[/QUOTE]

Yes this is the point of HS2, but what you propose, to upgrade the existing tracks, would require it to be a 6-track railway to achieve any capacity gains, yet this would only be 200-225km/h. IMO utterly pointless.


----------



## K_

Maarten Otto said:


> Why? capacity on long distance isn't the issue... capacity on those inter urban connections is. And where do you want to terminate those services in the London area.... Paddington? If you need 8 platforms for the HS2 services.... you can no longer handle that many trains on the Great Western mainline simply becouse the space is requred by a toy train the UK can not afford.


One option would be to run as many regional/local trains that currently terminate in Paddington through on Crossrail 1 once that is open. That would free up quite a bit of space in Paddington station.


----------



## Rational Plan

K_ said:


> One option would be to run as many regional/local trains that currently terminate in Paddington through on Crossrail 1 once that is open. That would free up quite a bit of space in Paddington station.


Once Reading is sorted out, the extra platform space is allocated to more services to Wales and the SouthWest.


----------



## K_

Rational Plan said:


> Once Reading is sorted out, the extra platform space is allocated to more services to Wales and the SouthWest.


There are twelve main platforms. That should be enough for 48 departures per hour. Are really that many needed for Wales and the SouthWest?


----------



## makita09

^^ + the Crossrail trains and you're looking at 60 tph. That would equate to 30tph + freight for each running line out of London - basically, not possible.


----------



## K_

makita09 said:


> ^^ + the Crossrail trains and you're looking at 60 tph. That would equate to 30tph + freight for each running line out of London - basically, not possible.


If you were running HS2 in to Paddington I'd asume you'd add two extra tracks for that. (But is there place for that?) The original objection I was answering was that Paddington wouldn't have room for more trains anyway.


----------



## makita09

Paddington can't support HS2 because the platforms are 150m short of the European requirement 400m. There is no space to lengthen them, HS2 is not an option before we start discussing the number of platforms.

If there were HS2 is going to need at least 7 platforms as it will start with 14tph.

After using 3 platforms for Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect, that would leave 2 platforms for the other long distance trains. Turnaround is 30-40 minutes on these services and this will not change as far as I can see, so Wales and South West would have to be restricted to 3-4 trains per hour.


----------



## K_

makita09 said:


> Paddington can't support HS2 because the platforms are 150m short of the European requirement 400m. There is no space to lengthen them, HS2 is not an option before we start discussing the number of platforms.


That's true, I don't know if that is feasible. It would be nice to use such a prestigeous station for suche a service. Look at st. Pancras for example... 

Maybe what London needs is more crossrail like projects, so that all local and regional services from around London continue underneath the city RER style, freeing up space in the main terminals for long distance services.



> If there were HS2 is going to need at least 7 platforms as it will start with 14tph.


For 14tph you need no more than 4 platforms. 



> After using 3 platforms for Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect, that would leave 2 platforms for the other long distance trains.


Heathrow connect is moving to Crossrail. I think that after Crossrail's finished that Heathrow express will either become irrelevant, or will move to Crossrail too. 



> Turnaround is 30-40 minutes on these services and this will not change as far as I can see, so Wales and South West would have to be restricted to 3-4 trains per hour.


Turnaround can be a lot faster. SBB specified in it's latest tender for intercity trains that a 16 car set should be able to turnaround in 4 minutes, including unloading/loading of passengers. That is why 4 tph on terminal tracks is realistic in a proper operation.


----------



## Apoc89

K_ said:


> Heathrow connect is moving to Crossrail. I think that after Crossrail's finished that Heathrow express will either become irrelevant, or will move to Crossrail too.


I don't think it makes sense replace the Heathrow Express with Crossrail. Crossrail is a standard high-capacity commuter/suburban railway, while the Express is a 'premium' service with a high amount of seats, free Wifi, extra luggage space, First Class for those willing to pay up, and of course the most important feature is in the name: It's a direct train between Heathrow and Paddington with no stops in between. The customers who use it are different from the ones who use Connect or will use Crossrail.

Replacing the Connect with Crossrail makes sense because it's pretty much a commuter train that happens to start/end as Heathrow. The Express, not so much.


----------



## 33Hz

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/dec/10/labour-high-speed-rail-link?cat=politics&type=article

Party politics strikes.


----------



## K_

Apoc89 said:


> I don't think it makes sense replace the Heathrow Express with Crossrail. Crossrail is a standard high-capacity commuter/suburban railway, while the Express is a 'premium' service with a high amount of seats, free Wifi, extra luggage space, First Class for those willing to pay up, and of course the most important feature is in the name: It's a direct train between Heathrow and Paddington with no stops in between. The customers who use it are different from the ones who use Connect or will use Crossrail.
> 
> Replacing the Connect with Crossrail makes sense because it's pretty much a commuter train that happens to start/end as Heathrow. The Express, not so much.


I just wonder what will happen with Heathrow Express after Crossrail. The Heathrow Connect/Crossrail trains will offer so much more value at a lower price that I wonder if HEX will still be able to attract passengers. 
Because even if HEX will still be faster between Heathrow and Paddington, Crossrail will be faster between Heathrow and the city...


----------



## 33Hz

HS2 was discussed on The Politics Show at lunch time today. I would have posted an alert but SSC was down.

They interviewed a couple of local campaigners. The only arguments that they could put forward were that this was just "keeping up with the French" and that "Someone should just buy Mr Cameron a train set". A Tory donor and landowner was quoted as saying he would vote Labour (I don't think so).


Philip Hammond was asked whether he thought the critics were NIMBYs. He didn't say that, but he noted that the only people he'd spoken to coming out against the project lived along the route.

We get to hear the government's preferred alignment in 8 days.


The programme may appear on iPlayer here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/politicsshow/


----------



## makita09

K_ said:


> For 14tph you need no more than 4 platforms.
> 
> Turnaround can be a lot faster. SBB specified in it's latest tender for intercity trains that a 16 car set should be able to turnaround in 4 minutes, including unloading/loading of passengers. That is why 4 tph on terminal tracks is realistic in a proper operation.


I think thats more than slightly optimistic. To obtain that kind of performance the UK railway industry will need to change the way it measures delays, it will need to entirely upgrade the signalling system everywhere to avoid any delays occurring, trains will need to be cleaned by magic, and it will need to build a lot more capacity to also avoid causing delays.

Whilst that is potentially achievable it certainly is not within the HS2 timeframe, and therefore not really all helpful as a suggestion.

The best you could see is 15 minutes. Plus throat entering/vacating, you are looking at 3 trains per platform per hour. Are these SBB intercity trains for journeys of 2-5 hours in length? If not then its a silly comparison.

Japan achieves this kind of performance on an entirely segregated railway. Unless this is the suggestion for Paddington?

Paddington


Too short
Not enough platforms whatever you say
Furthest station from the West End and the City
Any improvements better allocated to the railway it currently serves.


----------



## bluemeansgo

sotavento said:


> Cut the crap ...
> 
> the ONLY fault of the HS2 project is that due to being 100% new trackage it will mean that OUTSIDE of the urban areas they will need to EXPROPRIATE some farmlands ...


Expropriate where you can (where there isn't massive opposition) and built it on a viaduct elsewhere. It's safer and more stable anyhow. Japan has a massive dearth of farmland (being 80% mountains) and they just built over the farms.


----------



## jandeczentar

This whole project and the proposed timescale reminds me of an old episode of _Maid Marion and Her Merry Men_ where the Sheriff of Nottingham decides to build a tunnel between Worksop and Scunthorpe. He tries to sell it to the sceptical, mud-eating inhabitants of medieval Worksop (who don't approve) and finds that it will take 800 years to build!

But on a more serious note, I'm with the guy(s) who said this probably shouldn't be built. The priority for the rail network in this country is to increase capacity on the over-burdened commuter lines and that can be done just by adding more carriages for a fraction of the cost of HS2. Plus, does anyone seriously believe that the cost will stay at the £34bn I saw quoted in todays papers?


----------



## 33Hz

^ yes, because they add 60% to the real cost according to Treasury rules. It's how they can all look good by claiming it came in on budget - they true budget is much less.


----------



## jandeczentar

33Hz said:


> ^ yes, because they add 60% to the real cost according to Treasury rules. It's how they can all look good by claiming it came in on budget - they true budget is much less.


I'll believe that if I ever see it. The British government's record on delivering large projects on time and on budget has not been great lately, no matter what they said the original budget was.


----------



## bluemeansgo

jandeczentar said:


> But on a more serious note, I'm with the guy(s) who said this probably shouldn't be built. The priority for the rail network in this country is to increase capacity on the over-burdened commuter lines and that can be done just by adding more carriages for a fraction of the cost of HS2. Plus, does anyone seriously believe that the cost will stay at the £34bn I saw quoted in todays papers?


What's the cost of NOT doing it? Fuel prices are NOT going down anytime soon.

Driving and flying is going to get a whole lot more expensive. If Britain wants to stay competitive and use Satellite cities effectively, HS2 is a good start.


----------



## makita09

jandeczentar said:


> But on a more serious note, I'm with the guy(s) who said this probably shouldn't be built. The priority for the rail network in this country is to increase capacity on the over-burdened commuter lines and that can be done just by adding more carriages for a fraction of the cost of HS2.


Unfortunately no and no. HS2 is for increasing capacity, so it is for the task you say should be followed instead. Adding carriages - not nearly as cheap as you think. The vast majority of the network - especially the southern end of the WCML, has maximum length trains in the peaks. The 4-car units, when run in 12-car formations in the rush hour are 240m long, the lengthened 11-car pendolinos are (will be) 245m long. Extending the trains will either mean extending the platforms (costly) or running trains with SDO (inconvenient for passengers having to walk up the train to reach the platform), and either way the signalling and points at junctions and stations will need to be moved and relaid to stop the rear of lengthened trains blocking points and signal sections.

These are all quite expensive, interfere with day-to-day operations (the passengers have already had quite enough of disruption - the WCML took years) and only achieve an incremental improvement in capacity. HS2 or some other new line is needed for capacity.

Many people are also unaware that capacity on the WCML _is_ being improved in the meantime - but part of the point is that the entire industry knows that no matter what it does to the WCML it will run out of capacity around 2025, they just can't keep up.



> Plus, does anyone seriously believe that the cost will stay at the £34bn I saw quoted in todays papers?


HS1 remained within budget so why shouldn't HS2? The majority of UK construction projects are completed on time and on budget - perhaps the success rate is a little lower for govt infrastructure projects, but it is by no means certain HS2 would be a fiasco.


----------



## Aaronj09

http://www.uknetguide.co.uk/Latest-...proposed-high-speed-rail-route-800304390.html


----------



## Tom 958

How will HS1 and HS2 be connected? Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I can't find the answer, and someone here will likely enjoy explaining it, anyway.


----------



## endrity

Tom 958 said:


> How will HS1 and HS2 be connected? Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I can't find the answer, and someone here will likely enjoy explaining it, anyway.


Given that we don't even know the final route plans for HS2, this questions is a bit premature. Though most likely some kind of tunnel, like the one being currently built in Madrid should be the plan. I hope London doesn't end up like Paris, with many terminal destinations for it's high speed trains.


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## Manchester Planner

Tom 958 said:


> How will HS1 and HS2 be connected? Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I can't find the answer, and someone here will likely enjoy explaining it, anyway.


It has been planned along with the rest of the route:

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/assets.dft.gov.uk/hs2-arp-08-dr-rw-00021.pdf


----------



## Manchester Planner

endrity said:


> Given that we don't even know the final route plans for HS2...


Well, the latest (20th December) plans are probably going to be pretty much final:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/proposedroute/maps/

Can't see much changing now. The final plans will be after the new round of consultation, probably published in a year's time or so, but I doubt much will now change.

Euston will be the London terminal for HS2; St Pancras will be the London terminal for HS1. The two stations are really not far apart - 5 mins walk and already connected by tube. The latest plans have HS1 and HS2 connected by a single connecting track, which isn't expected to be used much. Most trains from the continent will call at St Pancras and end their journey there. Those that don't won't call at either St Pancras or Euston but will use the link and call at other London HS stations such as the existing HS1 Stratford and the proposed HS2 Old Oak Common.


----------



## MarkO

*London to Manchester in 100 Minutes*

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/03/14/y-shaped-british-hs2-program-to-connect-london-and-birmingham-by-2026/
PHWOAR!


----------



## Tom 958

MarkO said:


> http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/03/14/y-shaped-british-hs2-program-to-connect-london-and-birmingham-by-2026/
> PHWOAR!


That article's what started me questioning. 

Thanks, everyone!


----------



## Manchester Planner

Only the first phase of HS2 (London<--->WCML link near Lichfield with spur to Birmingham) has been planned fully. This phase should start construction around 2017 (it will take a couple of years for the official planning process, compensation to be paid, houses and farms vacated, etc) and be in operation 2024/5. The next phases of HS2 are indicative only - one branch to Manchester and another via the East Midlands to Leeds. God knows when they'll actually be built!


----------



## Manchester Planner

Just seen that the latest plans still show a maximum line speed of 400 km/h.... that's 248 mph!


----------



## YesToHS2

"Plus, does anyone seriously believe that the cost will stay at the £34bn I saw quoted in todays papers?"

The £34bn figure is already over 2 years old if not more and this figure was given for a full London to Scotland high speed line as set out by Network Rail not HS2 Ltd. The critics have clung onto this figure to try and make the HS2 first phase sound more expensive that it is.

The figure currently being given by HS2 Ltd is around the £19bn range for the first phase, it was £17bn-£19bn but some additions such as more tunnelling, deeper cuttings and confirmation of connecting HS1 to HS1 have put the price more towards the upper range. 

There is no reason why we can't build this on time and on budget if HS1 is anything to go by. HS1 was one of the biggest engineering challenges the UK has seen in decades and will go down as a UK success story. HS1 will be paid for by lease arrangements alone within 30 years without even taking into account economic benefits and rail fare income. 

The question shouldn't be can we afford HS2 it should be can we afford not to build it. The detrimental effects of a overcrowded rail network could cost this country billions.


----------



## Pansori

A couple of articles on HS2

*Bullet trains to hit UK rails by 2025: report*
http://china.globaltimes.cn/society/2011-02/619172.html



> The cost for 120 high-speed trains from Western producers, such as Siemens, Bombardier and Alstom is ￡4 billion ($6.3 billion), but Chinese trains cost only half that, the report said.



And another, somewhat less positive

*High Speed 2 is ‘£17bn white elephant’*
http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011/02/04-high-speed-2-is-17m.html


> He maintains that the business case is based on unlikely levels of demand, and that the West Coast Main Line (pictured) could cope for many years to come with a combination of longer trains and better yield management, which spreads demand in peak times so that fewer trains are so crowded that passengers have to stand.



So what's the situation with West Coast Mainline? Can it really cope with demand or not? The increase in speed alone would certainly not be a good enough reason to splash out such a vast sum of money but what is the exact situation with capacity and how it is being used at the moment? Or is the "against" case merely based on the traditional "no need to build anything" view which is the reason Britain hasn't got a HSR system and an incomplete motorway network?


----------



## poshbakerloo

Manchester Planner said:


> Just seen that the latest plans still show a maximum line speed of 400 km/h.... that's 248 mph!


I'm sure the top speed will gradually drop as the cost of construction increases.


----------



## NCT

Pansori said:


> A couple of articles on HS2
> 
> So what's the situation with West Coast Mainline? Can it really cope with demand or not? The increase in speed alone would certainly not be a good enough reason to splash out such a vast sum of money but what is the exact situation with capacity and how it is being used at the moment? Or is the "against" case merely based on the traditional "no need to build anything" view which is the reason Britain hasn't got a HSR system and an incomplete motorway network?


The primary focus of HS2 is capacity rather than speed. The WCML is forcasted to be full by 2020 according to this document. If you are going to build a brand spanking new line you might as well build it high-speed at little extra cost.


----------



## Pansori

NCT said:


> The primary focus of HS2 is capacity rather than speed. The WCML is forcasted to be full by 2020 according to this document. If you are going to build a brand spanking new line you might as well build it high-speed at little extra cost.


So why is that Chris Stokes guy saying that it is possible to cope with demand by spreading peak time flows and longer trains? Is it really possible (if so he may have a point) or is he just from a different planet? Actually that sounds weird because WCML seems to have already been dragged for way too long as the main railway line between South and North with upgrades of all kinds having taken place over the decades.


----------



## NCT

Pansori said:


> So why is that Chris Stokes guy saying that it is possible to cope with demand by spreading peak time flows and longer trains? Is it really possible (if so he may have a point) or is he just from a different planet? Actually that sounds weird because WCML seems to have already been dragged for way too long as the main railway line between South and North with upgrades of all kinds having taken place over the decades.


IMO lengthening of trains and spreading peak flows amounts to tinkering round the edges, and the WCML is already prone to delays due to the big speed differential between the intercity and commuter services, and the lack of redundancy on the line. So yeah it sounds like Chris Stokes is coming from a different planet.


----------



## Mostly Lurking

Especially as all long distance trains on the southern WCML are already 9 carriage (in the next few years many will be 11) minimum and some commuter trains 12.


----------



## makita09

Pansori said:


> So why is that Chris Stokes guy saying that it is possible to cope with demand by spreading peak time flows and longer trains? Is it really possible (if so he may have a point) or is he just from a different planet? Actually that sounds weird because WCML seems to have already been dragged for way too long as the main railway line between South and North with upgrades of all kinds having taken place over the decades.


Yeah NCT is right, this guy is on another planet. All the studies done by anyone has shown that capacity is a problem on the WCML. What this guy and the other critics fail to understand is that if they think tinkering will mean capacity is OK to 2020 in contradiction to all the studies, then great, but what the hell do we do when we get to 2025, or 2030?

Its nuts a bloody annoying. The fact is all long distance services could be taken away from the WCML, and by 2030 its entire capacity will be used up by freight and 12-car local/outer suburban services. There is suppressed demand already as there are more passengers than seats in the rush hour now. Passengers have increased in the UK by 40% in 10 years, it grew 5-10% last year alone despite the recession, and looks to increase another 40% by 2020.

I don't understand the mentality of the make-do-and-menders, because make do and mend is something you do when there are no alternatives or an insufficient demand to justify the cost of new infrastructure. I think they should be shot for insults to intelligence.


----------



## Rational Plan

More consultation documents launched

http://highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/sites/highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/files/hsr-consultation.pdf



Distribution of Passengers in London










Proposed network










Journey times










Service pattern once Y network complete.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

Congrats to the Brits;



> *Government sticks with plans to buy Hitachi trains*
> 
> LONDON | Tue Mar 1, 2011 10:58pm GMT
> 
> *(Reuters) - The government said on Tuesday it would push ahead with plans to replace its ageing Intercity Express trains, keeping a consortium including Japanese industrial conglomerate Hitachi as preferred bidder.*
> ........
> ........
> There had been fears the scheme, which would replace the diesel-powered trains dating back to the 1970s and 1980s, could be axed as part of a squeeze on government spending.


----------



## ETR401

SamuraiBlue said:


> Congrats to the Brits


...tell me about it...


----------



## makita09

I'm eagerly awaiting final analysis of the final package. I hope to God they go for just the 5 and 10-car versions, all the other stuff is just silly.

I'm hoping the final package also includes full power electric traction for the bi-modes (ie no diesel top-up required under wires at all) which I believe had been agreed with hitachi (as mentioned in the Foster review?) and is set ready for 140mph.

I'm also interested to see what the plan will be for the ECML, I'm glad emphasis has shifted to the GWML replacements, as originally the plan was to replace the ECML electric units first (ie the newest trains on the network mooted to be replaced by IEP) and the (older by 15 years) HSTs on the GWML and ECML would come after - which made no sense.


----------



## 33Hz

Why would the bi-mode need to have diesel top up?


----------



## AlexNL

Diesel top up sounds like an absurd idea... there's already 25 kV AC, on which any high speed train can reach 350 km/h... why would any train running there even need diesel top up? SNCF's B81500 and B82500 don't need this either. Why would IEP-trains need it?


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

The original Hitachi proposal for bi-mode trainsets had ten cars with an electric power car at one end and a diesel power car at the other. Perhaps one electric power car would not provide enough power to drive the whole ten car train.


----------



## makita09

Yes the original specification by the DfT was stupid. The traction package for the bi-mode 10-car sets had only one of the electric transformer/distributors of which the full electric 10-car train had two. The bi-mode would therefore have had a 2MW electric capability, when the total motor capacity of the train is 4MW. The only way to send more than 2MW of electricity to the motors was by using the diesel generator to top it up.

This is a fundementally stupid concept and was subject to much criticism by the railway press.

Whilst the details have not yet come out, I believe that the bi-mode now features two 2MW traction controls and the generator is now split across the train to underfloor generators, that add up to about half the electric output. The train can therefore no longer need diesel top-up as if under wires the train can draw all it needs.


----------



## IanCleverly

AOL Travel said:


> *Route for northern UK high speed rail link revealed*
> 
> The first detailed map of the planned route of the northern sections of the controversial £34 billion High Speed 2 rail link has been revealed, causing excitement and anger among campaigners.
> 
> The proposed route will see trains speeding through countryside in Staffordshire, Cheshire, Warwickshire, Leicestershire, Derbyshire and Yorkshire.
> 
> Once open, together with the southern section linking London and Birmingham, journey times from the capital to Manchester will be shortened from two hours, eight minutes to one hour, 20 minutes, while a journey between London and Leeds will be cut from two hours, 20 minutes to one hour, 20 minutes.


Sory continues here

Now, that's not strictly true, as all that the DfT have done is provide maps to what will happen just north of Birmingham.


----------



## WatcherZero

I see no maps beyond Lichfield.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Business leaders back high speed rail plan*
> 
> *More than 400 business leaders and entrepreneurs have given their backing to Britain’s proposed High Speed 2 rail route in an emphatic endorsement of the infrastructure project. *
> 
> Philip Hammond, transport secretary, described a petition backing the scheme as a “huge vote of confidence in our plans” as he launched a campaign in favour of the project on Tuesday at Nomura’s headquarters in the City of London
> 
> The plan has attracted controversy because it will cut through scenic Tory-supporting countryside and cost at least £17bn. An anti-HS2 letter, signed by 21 businessmen and Tory politicians, was published by The Daily Telegraph in the spring and attracted widespread attention for its criticism of the “expensive white elephant”.
> 
> Yet supporters believe that the “anti” camp, which includes Lord Wolfson, Next chief executive, is dwarfed by the number of business leaders who back the plans.
> 
> Mr Hammond said the 400 signatures on the petition showed business believed that better transport links were “vital” to the country’s economic health. “A new railway was always going to create opposition from the people who live closest to it, but this shows the level of national support . . . for more and quicker trains between our major cities,” he said. "A vocal minority are determined to block our ambitious proposals to create a railway fit for the 21st century. It is important that all those who are in favour make themselves heard.”
> 
> Those backing the plans include David Frost, head of the British Chambers of Commerce; Dalton Philips, chief executive of Wm Morrison; Lord Marshall, chairman of Nomura; Colin Matthews, chief executive of BAA; Andreas Goss, Siemens chief executive; and Philip Green, United Utilities chief executive.
> 
> With 45 days of consultation on the high-speed rail link to go, the pro campaign is making a national effort to garner support for the project, which will cut journey times from London to Birmingham and – eventually – beyond.
> 
> David Begg, director for the Campaign for High Speed Rail, said it was time for “people to sit up” and realise the opportunities the link would bring to “millions of people”.
> 
> “If we invest today in cities like Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and others in between, we will benefit for many decades to come,” he said.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f6237e70-9692-11e0-afc5-00144feab49a.html#axzz1P5ae1EC7


----------



## CharlieP

This map of the northern extensions "has been discovered using information obtained from HS2 Ltd", according to http://www.hs2-ladbroke.net/










I expected it to pass to the West of Wakefield, but instead I should almost be able to see it from my house (assuming I haven't moved by then!).


----------



## Tyr

Nothing more concrete on routes yet? I thought homeowners were already getting worried in certain areas and stuff about compensation was getting started?

They sure seem to be taking forever to get moving...


And is there a counter petition to that stupid no to hsr one?


----------



## Dobbo

Had a trip on the domestic HS1 service yesterday... it is superb.

Having a national network of these - properly plugged into the European network would be unreal.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Yorkshire business leaders argue case for high-speed rail*
> 
> *North cranks up its 'yes' campaign citing economic benefits of better and quicker connections, while southern opponents tell Commons Transport Select Committee of 'very marginal benefits'.*
> 
> Yorkshire's business and civic leaders have spoken of their support for high-speed rail during a top-level business forum. Keynote speaker Professor David Begg, director of the Campaign for High Speed Rail, told the forum that Yorkshire and the north would benefit in terms of regeneration, better connectivity and increased capacity on existing rail lines. He said that HS2 was an opportunity for long-term investment and the need for a strong pro-HS2 voice.
> 
> Begg said Yorkshire stands to reap over £2bn in economic benefits from the Government's proposed national network of 200mph trains, known as 'HS2', which will cut the journey time from Leeds to London to just 80 minutes. Including Leeds and Sheffield, the high-speed rail link would connect an area of 6.7 million people and three million jobs. Onward connections to the Tees Valley and Tyne and Wear regions would provide access to a further 2.2 million people and 0.9 million jobs.
> 
> ...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/the-no...e-business-leaders-argue-high-speed-rail-case


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Final push over HS2 London-Birmingham high speed rail*
> 
> *Supporters and opponents of a proposed high speed rail route between London and Birmingham are gearing up for the final fortnight of consultation. The public consultation over the HS2 route is due to end on 29 July.*
> 
> Alison Munro, chief executive of HS2 Ltd, said it was important to get as many responses as possible. Opponent Stop HS2 has opened a new headquarters in Warwickshire, saying the work will become more specialised when the consultation ends.
> 
> Co-ordinator Joe Ruskin said the next two weeks would be spent chasing responses, even if it was just getting people to write the word no several times.
> 
> *Further route proposed*
> 
> The new HQ in Kenilworth was opened by the town's mayor Dave Shilton, who said HS2 would not only devastate Kenilworth but also Coventry and Leamington Spa and all the places it would pass through without stopping.
> 
> Supporters of the scheme, which aims to cut the London to Birmingham journey time to 49 minutes, have said it would benefit business.
> 
> Solihull Lib Dem MP Lorely Burt said HS2's economic case for the whole region was overwhelming. "If you look at other countries, they have raced ahead of us, literally, in the provision of high speed rail," she said. "We really do need this."
> 
> Last week, Solihull Council re-iterated its support in principle saying there was a need for an HS2 station to serve Birmingham Airport and the National Exhibition Centre.
> 
> The route would cut through Warwickshire, going into Birmingham and into parts of Staffordshire. A further route has also been proposed extending HS2 into Manchester and Leeds.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14177972


----------



## poshbakerloo

I really wanna find out where the route is going as I live in Cheshire, south of Manchester!

First the airport's second runway, now this! There aint gonna be much countryside left lol


----------



## poshbakerloo

CharlieP said:


> This map of the northern extensions "has been discovered using information obtained from HS2 Ltd", according to http://www.hs2-ladbroke.net/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I expected it to pass to the West of Wakefield, but instead I should almost be able to see it from my house (assuming I haven't moved by then!).


The route north of Wilmslow can't be right as it passes through the airport and Styal woods :S


----------



## TedStriker

What's preferable for the theoretical HS2 stretch to Glasgow, to go North from Manchester, or extend the Leeds section to Newcastle and then on to Glasgow, and perhaps Edinburgh as well?

I personally have warm emotions for the Newcastle option, but I confess I have no kind of factual analysis to support my view.


----------



## mcarling

TedStriker said:


> What's preferable for the theoretical HS2 stretch to Glasgow, to go North from Manchester, or extend the Leeds section to Newcastle and then on to Glasgow, and perhaps Edinburgh as well?
> 
> I personally have warm emotions for the Newcastle option, but I confess I have no kind of factual analysis to support my view.


Given the terrain, I think the choices would be either from Leeds to Newcastle, Edinburgh, and then Glasgow or from Manchester to Glasgow.


----------



## TedStriker

mcarling said:


> Given the terrain, I think the choices would be either from Leeds to Newcastle, Edinburgh, and then Glasgow or from Manchester to Glasgow.



I agree. I also think it makes sense to include a city of the size and significance of Newcastle within the HS2 line, even if it means reaching Glasgow will take a little longer than if the route went North from Manchester. 

Incidentally, does anyone else find themselves alternating between being sympathetic to those that are scrutinizing the HS2 proposals and being a complete fascist and saying “**** anyone who’s against the scheme, it’s for the good of Great Britain and the British people!” (Sieg heil…). 

I generally maintain a balanced view, but I sometimes drift toward either extreme...


----------



## CharlieP

poshbakerloo said:


> The route north of Wilmslow can't be right as it passes through the airport and Styal woods :S


It's just a map that a protest group has put together - their source material is legit, but their draughtsmanship leaves something to be desired...


----------



## WatcherZero

Last HSR proposal I saw Ted had two seperate HS lines one connecting Manchester to Glasgow and one Leeds to Edinburgh. 

Scottish government favours the West coast for connecting Scotland to London but it does also recognise an East Coast role in connecting Scotland to North East england.


----------



## gramercy

i think a reverse s would be best
glasgow-edinburgh-newcastle-york-leeds-manchester-liverpool
+
leeds-sheffield----london
manchester-birmingham----london


----------



## CharlieP

That's more like a reverse-C on top of a Y. :lol:


----------



## mcarling

gramercy said:


> i think a reverse s would be best
> glasgow-edinburgh-newcastle-york-leeds-manchester-liverpool
> +
> leeds-sheffield----london
> manchester-birmingham----london





CharlieP said:


> That's more like a reverse-C on top of a Y. :lol:


I thought it was an inverted ampersand. :lol:


----------



## Dobbo

Will the two branches of the Y both stretch all the way to Scotland?

My bet is that the one from Manchester will - the other will stop outside Newcastle


----------



## mcarling

Dobbo said:


> Will the two branches of the Y both stretch all the way to Scotland?
> 
> My bet is that the one from Manchester will - the other will stop outside Newcastle


It's not even certain that HS2 will be built. No one knows the final form HS2 will take if built.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *High Speed Rail plans backed by civil engineering body*
> 
> *The delivery of a High Speed Rail (HSR) network supports a more structured transport strategy for the nation, the Institution of Civil Engineers has claimed.*
> 
> The civil engineering body believe the proposed plans for High Speed 2 will ‘free up capacity on the existing congested rail network and help regenerate and boost the economies of our city-regions, therefore benefitting the UK as a whole’.
> 
> Chair of ICE’s HSR working group, Steven Hayter, said: “The opportunity should be taken to invest in growth by providing a new railway that is fit for the 21st century – significantly increasing capacity, strengthening connectivity between Britain’s city-regions and linking up with the Trans-European rail network.The time to invest is now, and we endorse the Government’s strategy. In addition to better connectivity between regions, the benefit of improved connectivity to the capital should also not be understated,” he added.
> 
> “Faster, more reliable connections to London could propel a city-region’s economic competitiveness and act as a catalyst for regeneration as city developers, planners and businesses alike take advantage of the opportunities – especially in the Midlands, the North and Scotland. But we believe the benefits are not limited to those cities served by HS2.
> 
> “Many will benefit from released capacity and significantly improved services on the existing lines, such as communities that are currently not well served by the West Coast Main Line. Those not directly served by HS2 will also benefit from reduced journey times providing their nearest HS2 station is easily accessible by road or public transport.
> 
> “The key to growth is in the regions’ hands – they are best placed to devise how to use this infrastructural asset to their advantage and ensure economic development is evenly spread.”
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/22/high-speed-rail-plans-backed-by-civil-engineering-body/


----------



## Railfan

*Moving Platforms*

It may appear like a lift straight from an action sequence of a movie, but the designer puts it as the future of train traveling when the platform will move along with the train. Conceived by the industrial designer Paul Priestman of Priestmangoode, the high-speed trains will not stop at the platforms, as it is time-consuming, rather transfer the passengers to the local service trains or trams, while still moving in high speed. The concept of moving platform is by the same designer who designed Virgin Pendolino and Mercury high speed concept train.

How this will take place is even more interesting. The local trains or trams will dock alongside the long distance train and while still in motion the trains will allow the passengers to move from one train to another. The trains will connect to each other physically via docking system. Once the transfers are done both the trains will take their own separate ways. The local train or tram will act as a platform to take passengers disembarked from the long distance train to the local destination and letting the other train move with the same speed to its destination.

This will definitely be helpful in managing the time and energy consumption more effectively in long distance traveling. The high speed international or long distance trains waste lots of time and energy in the transit between two stations. Stopping at a station slows down the high speed train and regaining the speed results in both extra time and energy consumption. Therefore, the moving platform will be a very helpful concept for the long distance high-speed trains. It works on the same theory as the computers networks. Here, the network will connect two trains.

As the designer calls it “The train travel of 21st century,” the concept seems to be appealing as most of the areas already have two train lines, one for the long distance trains connecting one state/region (or even nation) to another and a parallel line for local trains or trams. So, the idea of connecting both the lines does not seem to be impossible. One thing is for sure, if the concept of moving platform realizes, it is definitely going to change the face of the train travel forever. It’s absolutely an idea to look forward as it will definitely change our live and save our travel time as well.

Source: DesignBuzz.com


----------



## Railfan

^^

Britain’s leading transport designer unveils the future for 21st Century train travel

Britain’s leading transport designer has unveiled his idea for the future of train travel. Moving Platforms is a completely inter-connected rail infrastructure where local trams connect to a network of non-stop high speed trains enabling passengers to travel from their local stop to a local address at their destination (even in another country) without getting off a train.

Paul Priestman of Priestmangoode is the designer of the Virgin Pendolino train and last year’s hugely successful Mercury high speed concept train. Moving Platforms is a totally joined-up network that allows passengers to transfer directly from one moving tram or high speed train to another. This new integrated infrastructure mimics the way the internet works, creating a system similar to the one that allows your home PC to connect to a computer on the other side of the world via a series of connected networks.

Moving Platforms involves a network of high speed trains that run non-stop between two ends of a continent, New York to San Francisco for instance. The high speed trains run on a line that passes outside towns and cities with a network of local feeder trams that carry passengers from local stops out to meet them. As they near each other, the high speed train slows down slightly and the tram speeds up alongside it, at which point the trains physically connect via a docking system allowing passengers to transfer directly across from the tram to the high speed train and vice versa. Once transfers are complete, the trains separate, with the high speed train speeding up again along its route, and the tram slowing down and going back into the town or city centre with the newly disembarked passengers. The tram, in effect, acts as a moving station. The same system could also be used by passengers transferring from one high speed train to another.

This idea is not as crazy as it sounds. There are plenty of examples in every day life where we step onto a moving vehicle: escalators, moving walkways, paternoster lifts, ski lifts and Ferris wheels like the London Eye.

We are trying to build a new 21st Century train service on a station-based infrastructure that was designed in the 19th century for steam trains. We should be re-thinking infrastructure and building an inter-connected local-to-global rail network.

Current plans for high speed rail will require a new network of major stations, taking up huge amounts of space and with a cost and environmental impact that is potentially vast. These stations function for the most part as large car parks that are packed during working hours and empty the rest of the time, and are only in use by passengers for short periods of the day.

The big problem with high speed trains is that they are not very fast. Slowing down and speeding up as they move between stations means they are only able to travel at their full speed for limited periods of time (wasting vast amounts of energy in the process). On long journeys, the non stop high speed train could save a vast proportion of any journey time.

We lose huge amounts of time in transit waiting at stations as we change trains. Moving Platforms would enable passengers to travel from their local stop to an address of their choice in another town or country without getting off a train.

Many rail passengers use cars to get to their main-line embarkation station, so being able to link up to the high speed train directly from a local tram or train service means we could reduce car usage in towns and cities.

Track infrastructure is already in place in many areas. On each train line, there are two tracks, one high speed and one local, next to one another. This means that potentially, Moving Platforms would not take up any more land.

Existing local stations would serve the feeder trams, enabling passengers from rural areas to access the high speed line easily.

Moving Platforms could also be used for local deliveries and freight. This will help get trucks off the road and ease congestion on motorways and in towns and cities.
A journey planner App would tell you what local tram or train to get on in Boston to go to a local address in San Francisco for instance, making travel simpler and easier.

“I can’t believe that across the world we are spending billions on high speed rail making it run on a network that was invented in the 19th Century. I’m under no illusion that Moving Platforms is a big idea, but if we really want high speed rail to be successful and change the way we travel, getting people off the roads and reducing the number of short haul flights, it is imperative that the infrastructure we use works with, not against, this new technology to enable a seamless passenger journey from start to destination. The days of the super-hub train station are over, connectivity is the way forward,” says Paul Priestman.


----------



## mcarling

While I like the idea of transferring between high-speed and local trains at speed in principle, I think the idea has some difficulties in practice:

- Train length. High speed trains are much longer than local trains. That may not seem like a huge problem until one considers that luggage may be involved.

- Diversity of local services. Imagine, for example, a high speed train going between Manchester and Paris via London (or bypassing London). Currently, one would have dozens of options for connecting to different local services in London. How many different local trains could dock with a high-speed train between Manchester and Kent? Keep in mind that docking near Manchester would be pointless. It would seem that only the most popular local services could dock and passengers going elsewhere would have to change trains one more time. If the number of dockings exceeds the current number of stops, there might not be any savings in time or energy.

- Weight. These docking doors would certainly add weight and complexity.


----------



## gramercy

i dont think it would save a lot of electricity, just consider regenerative braking and the energy needed for the "platform trains"

this idea reminds me of the zeppelin aircraft hook-on trapeze which was intended to fly in customs officials (!) prior to landing...

crazy ideas


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## gramercy

honest to god, i dont understand the opposition, youve got £1400 bn / year economy and they are bellyaching over something that would cost ~£1 bn / year assuming a 40 year amortization, thats like 0.07% of gdp


----------



## endrity

gramercy said:


> honest to god, i dont understand the opposition, youve got £1400 bn / year economy and they are bellyaching over something that would cost ~£1 bn / year assuming a 40 year amortization, thats like 0.07% of gdp


It's all about people who want their home properties away from any possible disturbance. I am sure if this goes to a poll it will be overwhelmingly approved. Any other city would love a faster connection to London, and maybe the rest of Europe's high speed network.


----------



## Silly_Walks

endrity said:


> Any other city would love a faster connection to London, and maybe the rest of Europe's high speed network.


The rest of Europe's HS network... and this is what i don't understand about the HS2 proposal: It's not connected to Europe's High Speed network.
It would make the line so much more useful if people from for example Birmingham could go straight to Brussels or Paris. So why terminate the line in London, without any connection to HS1?


----------



## Mostly Lurking

There is to be a connection, but demand is expected to be so low it is a single track chord.


----------



## sotonsi

Demand for about 2 trains per day. Probably an over-reaction to the over-enthusiastic figures for the Chunnel that never came into light, but I reckon that, given the small demand even for London from the continent (and vice versa) that Birmingham, etc would be fine mostly using the travelator.

There's also the problem of diverting trains away from London - the demand for London is so high that there's no spare capacity for other trains. Provided that they stop at Old Oak and Stratford, they should be fine.

Notice the lack of south of Paris/east of Brussels trains from London too - a mere handful.


----------



## sekelsenmat

In the video they make a claim that people will start to telecommunicate more and therefore travel less. The idea might seam interresting at first sight, but the video producers forgot to mention that there is no real world evidence what-so-ever that this is remotely true. Mobility is increasing without any signs of decreasing.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *HS2 ‘would benefit towns’ between London and Birmingham*
> 
> *The construction of a new high speed line could benefit towns between London and Birmingham, as well as transforming rail travel to and between cities further north, according to the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC).*
> 
> In its response to the Government’s consultation on High Speed 2, ATOC says that HS2 is a ‘better way of dealing with growing passenger numbers’ than further upgrades to the West Coast Main Line.
> 
> Upgrading the existing line would offer only ‘marginal improvements’ to intercity services, do ‘little to free up capacity for local services’ between London and the West Midlands or for freight, and risks bringing major disruption to millions of passengers.
> 
> Michael Roberts, Chief Executive of ATOC said: “Rail travel is more popular now than it has been for decades with parts of the network facing a capacity crunch. Investing in a new high speed line and other parts of the rail network is key to ensuring the nation has a modern, green transport system fit for the 21st century.
> 
> “HS2 not only provides the extra capacity needed to serve growing demand for rail, uniquely it offers the prospect of dramatically shorter journey times between the engines of our economy. This promises to unlock the potential of cities in the Midlands and the North, and to attract even more people out of cars and planes and onto trains.”


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/29/hs2-would-benefit-towns-between-london-and-birmingham/


----------



## 33Hz

Mostly Lurking said:


> There is to be a connection, but demand is expected to be so low it is a single track chord.


I think this is somewhat self-fulfilling.

Take a look at the air traffic stats from the CAA. If you look at all the route combinations that an HS2/Heathrow through to HS1 interconnection allows that are under 4 hours travel time, the market size is even bigger than the UK domestic market for HS2. It's 1 million pax per month.

I'm hoping that if DB manage to break the logjam that is caused by Channel Tunnel safety regulations and immigration requirements, a lot more of this market will be there for rail to take.


----------



## Jeff Hawken

Just took a look at the CAA stats, which are very interesting. Taking Birmingham to Parid CDG as an example (which you would expect to be one of the strongest cases for through running from HS1 onto HS2) the number of passengers in 2010 was 314,227. That is a daily average of 860, which is less than a single trainload. So even if you could get all the passengers in a 24 hour period from Birmingham to Paris and put them on a single train, they still wouldn't fill it. 

Yes, these are just coarse averages, but it is difficuklt to see how you could justify frequent services from north of London through to the Continent on such a basis. Trains move large numbers of people on single-axis flows, so agglomerating the full market of a diverse range of destinations is not relevant.


----------



## poshbakerloo

I'm starting to go off the idea of UK HSR...

I'm sure if would be better for all main lines to be upgraded to 140Mph running with electric trains...

And have call rural and commuter lines upgraded with a higher frequency and later running trains...


----------



## sotonsi

and where is the capacity in the existing network for these extra commuter services?


----------



## poshbakerloo

sotonsi said:


> and where is the capacity in the existing network for these extra commuter services?


my local station is on the WCML...

There is only 4-5tph 1 local and 3-4 express (at the very most), I'm sure they could fit more in...


----------



## Mostly Lurking

You don't live on a core part of the WCML then.


----------



## poshbakerloo

Mostly Lurking said:


> You don't live on a core part of the WCML then.


I don't but still, they could fit more with changes made to signals...
Its not as if there is a train passing every 5mins


----------



## Mostly Lurking

poshbakerloo said:


> I don't but still, they could fit more with changes made to signals...
> Its not as if there is a train passing every 5mins


I'm glad you are such an expert on signalling and train pathing. That is sarcasm by the way.

How does running an extra train on a section of the WCML that is not over-crowded help to relieve the sections that are crowded?


----------



## poshbakerloo

Mostly Lurking said:


> I'm glad you are such an expert on signalling and train pathing. That is sarcasm by the way.
> 
> How does running an extra train on a section of the WCML that is not over-crowded help to relieve the sections that are crowded?


I won't. And thats not what I meant...The 'crowded' parts of the WCML are not really crowded...just busy.


----------



## Mostly Lurking

poshbakerloo said:


> I won't. And thats not what I meant...The 'crowded' parts of the WCML are not really crowded...just busy.


Hence the need for more capacity. Glad we have got to the bottom of that :nuts:


----------



## poshbakerloo

Mostly Lurking said:


> Hence the need for more capacity. Glad we have got to the bottom of that :nuts:


All lines are busy. But if a new HS line is built then the old WCML will just turn into the old line that no one likes or uses...


----------



## Sopomon

poshbakerloo said:


> All lines are busy. But if a new HS line is built then the old WCML will just turn into the old line that no one likes or uses...


What makes you think that?


----------



## Suburbanist

poshbakerloo said:


> I'm starting to go off the idea of UK HSR...
> 
> I'm sure if would be better for all main lines to be upgraded to 140Mph running with electric trains...
> 
> And have call rural and commuter lines upgraded with a higher frequency and later running trains...


Later running trains have to do with operating, not capital expenses, so it is not exactly comparable to HSR capital costs.

I think most late trains don't break even, and, at that time, motorways and roads are usually empty. There is really no reason for trains to, on a broad basis, run late, say, after 9.30pm or so, in most places, except on special events.


----------



## poshbakerloo

Suburbanist said:


> Later running trains have to do with operating, not capital expenses, so it is not exactly comparable to HSR capital costs.
> 
> I think most late trains don't break even, and, at that time, motorways and roads are usually empty. There is really no reason for trains to, on a broad basis, run late, say, after 9.30pm or so, in most places, except on special events.


I always travel on the last train Manchester Picc - Prestbury at 23:15 and its always busy, Fridays and Saturdays its standing room only. If they had a train at 3am Friday and Saturday only I'm sure that would be busy. They don't break even if because no buys tickets at that time as no one checks them...


----------



## poshbakerloo

Sopomon said:


> What makes you think that?


In France and Italy, I have travelled on both HS and normal intercity trains...

The HS trains are all new modern and running well, whilst the rest of the network falls apart with old trains running at very low speeds (60-90 mph) much slower than normal intercity trains in the UK which may only run up to 125mph but travel at or close to that speed for most of the route...


----------



## Mostly Lurking

poshbakerloo said:


> I always travel on the last train Manchester Picc - Prestbury at 23:15 and its always busy, Fridays and Saturdays its standing room only. If they had a train at 3am Friday and Saturday only I'm sure that would be busy. They don't break even if because no buys tickets at that time as no one checks them...



You are again showing your naivety I'm afraid. A service at around 3am wouldn't get a subsidy to run.


----------



## sotonsi

poshbakerloo - we've had 125mph running for about 80 years, we upgraded the ECML, GWML, WCML, etc to these speeds and other lines like the SWML, CML, etc to 100mph running while France didn't have decent speeds on it's classic network in the first place before it built new high speed lines.

France built it's high speed network for speed, we're building ours to supplement the classic network by adding new capacity - the different network paradigm will mean that the classic network won't be neglected.


----------



## NCT

^^ Indeed, and places like Northampton, Coverntry, Crewe etc that are bypassed by HS2 will ensure the classic WCML will remain busy.


----------



## Dobbo

Jeff Hawken said:


> Just took a look at the CAA stats, which are very interesting. Taking Birmingham to Parid CDG as an example (which you would expect to be one of the strongest cases for through running from HS1 onto HS2) the number of passengers in 2010 was 314,227. That is a daily average of 860, which is less than a single trainload. So even if you could get all the passengers in a 24 hour period from Birmingham to Paris and put them on a single train, they still wouldn't fill it.
> 
> Yes, these are just coarse averages, but it is difficuklt to see how you could justify frequent services from north of London through to the Continent on such a basis. Trains move large numbers of people on single-axis flows, so agglomerating the full market of a diverse range of destinations is not relevant.


I think that the right figures to look at are those from Manchester, Leeds, East Mids, Sheffield, Birmingham to Paris as this is the catchment area. The trains can always drop-off and pick up at London...

Not having a decent HS1 - HS2 connection seems a bit of a waste to me.


----------



## K_

Dobbo said:


> I think that the right figures to look at are those from Manchester, Leeds, East Mids, Sheffield, Birmingham to Paris as this is the catchment area. The trains can always drop-off and pick up at London...
> 
> Not having a decent HS1 - HS2 connection seems a bit of a waste to me.


But it also shows that trains that do HS1 - HS2 through running to/from the continent must be open to domestic travel too. The fact that cabotage was not possible is one of the things that killed the NOL Eurostars....


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> But it also shows that trains that do HS1 - HS2 through running to/from the continent must be open to domestic travel too. The fact that cabotage was not possible is one of the things that killed the NOL Eurostars....


I don't think so. Eurostar operates on a strict reserved seat policy, a requirement for using the Eurotunnel (to have a list of all people on board a train, and limited occupancy of the train in case a fast evacuation is needed). Moreover, it is good to have a differentiated service, one that implies you will ALWAYS have a previously determined seat. 

Pricing strategies are also completely different for international travel.

Thalys, for instance, is a very successful joint venture and it doesn't operate regular domestic services integrated in the network whatsoever.


----------



## Dobbo

It would be good if these services could be operated... shame if all HS2 stations had to have an international section....


On a side note, would it be possible to have a Eurotunnel style freight service on HS2? By that i mean lorries drive onto a "le Shuttle" train somewhere up North, that train then goes down HS2 (at the normal line operating speed so as to not limit the number of paths). 

That might aid road congestion and pollution somewhat. Is it remotely feasable?


----------



## Suburbanist

Dobbo said:


> On a side note, would it be possible to have a Eurotunnel style freight service on HS2? By that i mean lorries drive onto a "le Shuttle" train somewhere up North, that train then goes down HS2 (at the normal line operating speed so as to not limit the number of paths).


No.

That would mean strengthening the track to accommodate almost double the axle load, which would make costs of construction skyrocket.


----------



## Dobbo

Suburbanist said:


> No.
> 
> That would mean strengthening the track to accommodate almost double the axle load, which would make costs of construction skyrocket.


Fair enough!

Is this something that can only be done during the initial construction process, or can it be done at a later date (without massive disruption/cost)?

I guess Bridges could be problematic, but the rest would not be too bad.


----------



## makita09

K_ said:


> But it also shows that trains that do HS1 - HS2 through running to/from the continent must be open to domestic travel too.


No it doesn't. It shows that the appropriate number of services would be quite small, thats all.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> I don't think so. Eurostar operates on a strict reserved seat policy, a requirement for using the Eurotunnel (to have a list of all people on board a train, and limited occupancy of the train in case a fast evacuation is needed). Moreover, it is good to have a differentiated service, one that implies you will ALWAYS have a previously determined seat.
> 
> Pricing strategies are also completely different for international travel.
> 
> Thalys, for instance, is a very successful joint venture and it doesn't operate regular domestic services integrated in the network whatsoever.


Mandatory reservation and yield management does not preclude cabotage.

Thalys services can be used for domestic travel in Belgium. You can board a Thalys in Liege and get of in Brussel for example, if you pay the surcharge. As an operator you want to fill your seats. If you don't sufficiently fill your seats you operate at a loss.
That is why it is advantageous to the operator of a Birmingham - London - Paris service to also accept passengers who want to travel Birmingham - London. The fact that this was ruled out in advance for the NOL Eurostars basically made them unviable.


----------



## Dobbo

K_ said:


> That is why it is advantageous to the operator of a Birmingham - London - Paris service to also accept passengers who want to travel Birmingham - London. The fact that this was ruled out in advance for the NOL Eurostars basically made them unviable.


Agree - but the safety of the Channel Tunnel is first priority.

Perhaps two trainsets joined up can go from Manchester - Birmingham - London, with the front set going on to Paris (perhaps joining up with a similar set that has done Leeds - Sheffield - East Mids - London - Paris?)


----------



## SamuraiBlue

Dobbo said:


> Agree - but the safety of the Channel Tunnel is first priority.
> 
> Perhaps two trainsets joined up can go from Manchester - Birmingham - London, with the front set going on to Paris (perhaps joining up with a similar set that has done Leeds - Sheffield - East Mids - London - Paris?)


You'll have a much more flexible time schedule and capacity if you simply have passengers change trains at London not to mention the hassle of not needing to open an immigration at all the stations.


----------



## trainrover

_Railroad to nowhere

Plans for a new high-speed rail link rest on mistaken assumptions about Britain’s economic geography_​


----------



## nemu

^^

The article above makes up even more dubious assumptions , none of which are adequately backed up. A simple time-cost analysis is expected at the very least for an article coming from _The Economist_


----------



## trainrover

My search, revealing much coverage of railways by the mag, was surprising.


----------



## Ctbarn1

I thought they weren't connecting HS2 and HS1?


----------



## Mostly Lurking

Ctbarn1 said:


> I thought they weren't connecting HS2 and HS1?


Pretty sure there has always been a single track connection in the plans.


----------



## K_

Ctbarn1 said:


> I thought they weren't connecting HS2 and HS1?


HS2 will be connected to the existing network, therefore it will be connected to HS1...


----------



## makita09

Ctbarn1 said:


> I thought they weren't connecting HS2 and HS1?


http://webarchive.nationalarchives....pi/highspeedrail/proposedroute/hs1connection/


----------



## flierfy

K_ said:


> HS2 will be connected to the existing network, therefore it will be connected to HS1...


The question is rather whether there will be a GC-gauge through route. This could be of massive importance to the Bombardier plant in Derby, provided that it still exists when HS2 arrives in the East Midlands.


----------



## makita09

From Railway Herald Issue 285

http://www.railwayherald.com/mailshot/2011-09-26/



> *Deutsche Bahn to start commercial services from London in 2013*
> 
> Following the announcement in October last year that Deutsche Bahn was looking to commence operations from London, it has been confirmed that European services will start in
> late 2013.
> 
> It is expected that three trains a day will operate from London St Pancras International through the Channel Tunnel to Brussels, from where they will split, with one half heading for Amsterdam, a destination that has been a long held ambition for Eurostar, while the other half will proceed to Frankfurt, via Cologne. It is understood that when services commence in December 2013, they will use the latest Siemens-built ICE3 fleet, known as Class 407 EMUs, providing access to Amsterdam in less than four hours, and Frankfurt in around five hours. Eurostar is following DB with the purchase of 10 high-speed sets from Siemens that will become, what Eurostar call e320 sets, signifying their top speed. The trains will carry 900 passengers, as apposed to the 750 capacity of the current Class 373 Alstom built TGV variant. When Eurostar announced the new order in October 2010, the company stated that the new trains would allow additional destinations to be served, including Amsterdam and Geneva.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *High-speed rail could link Gatwick and Heathrow airports in 15 minutes*
> 
> *A high-speed rail link could take passengers between Gatwick and Heathrow within 15 minutes, according to a new proposal drawn up by civil servants. The £5bn plan – creating a hub known as Heathwick – would mean there is no need to build another airport to serve London or expand the current facilities at Heathrow. *
> 
> According to sources, officials at the Department for Transport have already put the idea to the airports and companies involved – but it remains only one option to be considered under the current aviation review. The plans are at an early stage and could easily run into opposition from Heathrow, which is owned by BAA and keen to expand on its own. Gatwick is owned by Global Infrastructure Partners.
> 
> There could also be protest from people who live near the area, including the Surrey constituents of Philip Hammond, the transport minister. To minimise disruption, the trains, travelling at 180mph, would largely follow the route of the M25 motorway and could be underground for part of the way.
> 
> Under the current proposals, passengers would not need to go through separate immigration procedures or check-in twice, because Gatwick and Heathrow would be considered part of the same aviation “hub”.
> 
> Ministers are under pressure from business groups to find a solution to lack of airport capacity in the South East, after the Coalition ruled out any more runways at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. The main concern is that poor airport infrastructure is making Britain less competitive.
> 
> The British Chamber of Commerce first put forward plans for a "Heathwick" hub two years ago, but the idea has only gained ground during the current review of the UK’s aviation capacity. It would take some time to build the 35-mile line, but less than creating another new airport in the Thames Estuary, which is the favoured solution of London Mayor Boris Johnson.
> 
> The Department for Transport is planning to publish its aviation policy in the spring.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...wick-and-Heathrow-airports-in-15-minutes.html



> *Heathwick airport hub on agenda*
> 
> *A radical plan for a new “Heath-Wick” airport hub featuring a £5bn high-speed rail link between Heathrow and Gatwick is being considered seriously by ministers, the Financial Times has learnt. *
> 
> The idea was put forward as an alternative to the politically unpalatable expansion of Heathrow and is being closely examined by ministers, who are under pressure to increase airport capacity in the south-east of England.
> 
> The British Chambers of Commerce suggested two years ago that high-speed rail could be used to link Heathrow and Gatwick, creating a “collective hub”. Councillor Victoria Borwick, a member of the Greater London Authority’s transport committee and former Conservative party treasurer, will on Saturday call for a more detailed consultation into the idea.
> 
> She believes her proposal will expand capacity around London without jeopardising the coalition’s promise not to build new runways at Heathrow, Gatwick or Stansted. Stansted, in Essex, is relatively unpopular with airways and is only running at 58 per cent capacity.
> 
> Building a 15-minute link between Heathrow and Gatwick could increase the price of landing slots at the latter, and eventually force low-cost airlines such as Ryanair and EasyJet to move to Stansted. This could free up more slots at the new “Heath-Wick” hub for an expansion of regional capacity, an idea which has caught the eye of cabinet ministers.
> 
> The Department for Transport said a draft aviation policy would be published for consultation in the spring. “We are seeking views on the key issues which need to be addressed, including the importance of a UK hub airport and whether it might be possible to create a ‘virtual hub’ by improving connectivity between existing airports,” it said. “This proposal will form a useful contribution to the debate.”
> 
> The 35-mile high-speed rail route would see trains travelling at up to 180mph parallel to the M25, before disappearing into tunnels en route to Gatwick. Passengers would not need to pass through immigration or check-in twice.
> 
> The route would take several years to legislate and another five to build. As such it would be faster to build than alternatives including the £40bn “Boris Airport” proposed by London’s mayor, Boris Johnson, for the Thames estuary.
> 
> “We have all heard of ideas floating around such as Boris Airport, Cliffe Airport or RAF Manston but most are 25 years off,” said Cllr Borwick. “We need to look at what we can do in a reasonable time frame and to a reasonable budget.”
> 
> Mr Johnson this week rowed back from his once-cherished plan, suggesting he was now “not wedded to any particular solution”. “It may be that there are alternative ideas that people provide,” he said. “High-speed links between this or that airport ... creating a dual hub or whatever.”
> 
> Airlines including British Airways are likely to reject the plan and call again for a third runway at Heathrow. But the government believes a U-turn over Heathrow is politically impossible.
> 
> David Begg, chair of the Business Infrastructure Commission and a non-executive director at BAA, said Heathrow’s third runway was still the best “shovel-ready” option: “You could do it quickly but the problem is that politically that option is just toxic and off-limits just now. That is why it makes sense to look at a number of options such as this one.”


http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/f4949292-f10a-11e0-b56f-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss#axzz1aCQAYlcs


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Pansori

^^
I don't know if I missed anything but what is the point of building such a link? Gatwick is already the world's (?) busiest single-runway airport while Heathrow would remain with its over-used two runways. How exactly does that make sense?

The most efficient and rational solution is a new (or even two of them) runway at Heathrow or Gatwick (or even Stansted) and relevant transport improvemens from these airports to London. It's not really rocket science because you're not getting better service without havinging a physical runway where planes can land and take/off. Talking about some new high-speed rail link WITHOUT considering new runways is just nonsense.


----------



## sotonsi

New runways at either Heathrow or Gatwick will make the opposition to HS2 look puny. Stansted is the only London airport with room to grow.

Looking at a map, there's room for a new-build hub airport near North and South Ockendon - it requires the taking over of farmland, and would cost a lot to build, but the potential for transport links isn't bad (especially as there's still gaps for the road to Maplin, which can be modified) and it's not that pretty an area, nor involves demolishing 300 homes.

I think that the Heathwick plan is to have Heathrow and Gatwick act as one hub, in order to compete with other major hub airports - as far as I can see Gatwick will effectively turn into the short haul terminal of Heathrow (though will probably still have all those charter flights).


----------



## JC82

poshbakerloo said:


> I don't think a new runway would be £9 billion. I know there is a lot to be demolished but the 2nd runway at Manchester airport was only a few 100 million. I know less had to be taken down but the houses in Sipson are a lot cheaper than the houses in North East Cheshire etc


I agree, £9bn for one runway would be insane. Also, it would not need to be 3 miles long. at most a new full length runway would be 4000m which is under 2.5 miles. Heathrows current runways are around 3900m and 3650m.


----------



## Sopomon

JC82 said:


> I agree, £9bn for one runway would be insane. Also, it would not need to be 3 miles long. at most a new full length runway would be 4000m which is under 2.5 miles. Heathrows current runways are around 3900m and 3650m.


I've seen the plans for where it's supposed to be built, there would be a LOT of rearranging, demolishing, reallocating of existing homes and infrastructure, so maybe 9bn is a lot, but more 4-5bn is feasable.


----------



## JC82

Sopomon said:


> I've seen the plans for where it's supposed to be built, there would be a LOT of rearranging, demolishing, reallocating of existing homes and infrastructure, so maybe 9bn is a lot, but more 4-5bn is feasable.


This is one of several similar options from BAA's 2005 interim master plan for Heathrow. I believe that when the previous government approved this, the new runway was to be 2500m long. It will be interesting to see if this changes should the current goverment have a much needed re think...


----------



## IanCleverly

The Daily Telegraph said:


> *The journey time from London to Sheffield will be cut from around two hours and 10 minutes to two hours under Government plans to be announced next week that will see the electrification of the Midland Main Line*
> 
> However, the estimated cost of the £9bn project may be pased on to the traveller through above inflation fare rises. Network Rail, the company which runs the country’s track infrastructure, and the Governmnet will also help meet the cost.
> 
> With demand for rail travel increasing at six per cent a year and reaching levels not seen since the late 1920s, the Treasury is ready to dig deep to invest in the industry. Even rural lines which were scheduled for closure are now being swamped by passengers, with overcrowding rather than underuse being the major problem.
> 
> The biggest winners from the new industry blueprint covering 2014-19 will be the North and Midlands who will benefit from more electrification and a series of projects centred on Manchester, known as the Northern Hub.
> 
> Trips from Liverpool and Manchester are likely be up to 10 minutes shorter, with the journey time dropping to about 45 minutes. It will take about 45 minutes to go by train from Leeds to Manchester, a reduction of 10 minutes.
> 
> Other projects contained in the Northern Hub will see faster rail services enjoyed by Chester, Bradford, Halifax, Hull, Newcastle and other towns in the North-East. Travel time from London to Oxford, Bristol and South Wales will also fall under current upgrades.
> 
> Known within the High Level Output Specification – or HLOS – the latest industry five-year plans is intended to help end the north-south divide.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> 
> Other initiatives which it is believed will be in next week’s package include the line from Oxford and Aylesbury to Milton Keynes. This could herald the eventual reopening of the so-called Varsity Line between London and Cambridge, which was closed down in 1967.


Taken from Here


----------



## 33Hz

^ this still isn't really high speed rail though.

Meanwhile the case for HS2 is apparently going to judicial review...

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/ne...igh-speed-rail-given-go-ahead-92746-31489828/


I do wonder if the government is getting cold feet on this now and the increased programme of electrification is to pre-empt or even undermine the case for HS2.


----------



## 33Hz

OK it seems not...

http://www.greengauge21.net/news/greengauge-21-applauds-london-to-scotland-three-hour-target/

http://www.campaignforhsr.com/new-transport-secretary-says-he-will-be-cracking-on-with-hs2

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsma...inster-for-talks-on-high-speed-rail-1-2565120

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ll-fasttrack-hs2-high-speed-rail-8204527.html

http://www.birminghampost.net/news/...-blow-to-anti-hs2-campaigners-65233-32014274/


----------



## 33Hz

It's interesting that the new Transport Secretary has said he wants to see a Heathrow hub.

IMHO the Arup proposal absolutely should be built.

http://www.arup.com/News/2010_04_April/01_Apr_2010_Heathrow_Transport_Super_Hub.aspx


----------



## sotonsi

HS2 will fight any spur to Heathrow with logic and reason - it makes little sense. A route from the Chiltern line along the same route would work much better - more so if you turn it into a West London tangential railway from the WCML to the SWML.

Also 3rd runway is dead (it's always been a complete non-starter, like HS2 to Heathrow), Heathrow West (demolishing Poyle, rather than Simpson) and it's 4 runway plan is the new idea that will emerge.


----------



## mcarling

sotonsi said:


> 3rd runway is dead (it's always been a complete non-starter, like HS2 to Heathrow), Heathrow West (demolishing Poyle, rather than Simpson) and it's 4 runway plan is the new idea that will emerge.


It's Sipson, not Simpson. I'm skeptical about any Heathrow expansion proposal than involves crossing either the M4 or the M25, so I suspect Poyle is quite safe. Demolishing Sipson seems more sensible to me (provided of course that the property owners are well compensated).


----------



## 33Hz

Not a spur but a through station. A terminus for Eurostars and an opportunity to make a parkway station for HS1, HS2 and the GWML. The hub option allows for services to go from HS2 to the South Coast. 

The HS2 ltd study was far too limited in scope.


----------



## sotonsi

mcarling said:


> It's Sipson, not Simpson. I'm skeptical about any Heathrow expansion proposal than involves crossing either the M4 or the M25, so I suspect Poyle is quite safe. Demolishing Sipson seems more sensible to me (provided of course that the property owners are well compensated).


Demolishing Sipson (sorry I spelt it wrong - but I'm sure I would be almost ignored if I walked round the village with my crime against them put on a big sign above my head, whereas you would be tarred and feathered if you went there with yours) will never happen if the Government that gets it to construction wants to win votes in West London ever again. And any London Mayor worth their salt would try their hardest to veto it.

Poyle is more likely, while similarly destructive: the benefits of moving the airport slightly further west would get West London and the London Mayor (whether Boris or his successor) to be more behind the project than the third runway plans, there's no listed buildings to demolish, easier to integrate with the existing transport infrastructure and air traffic control, less motorway 'tunnelling' (as 3rd runway plans have to have the M4 roofed over near Heathrow to improve air quality - as it is on the long axis, not the short one of the airport, like the M25, it's a longer tunnel) and opens space for reuse.


33Hz said:


> Not a spur but a through station. A terminus for Eurostars and an opportunity to make a parkway station for HS1, HS2 and the GWML.


Would Parisians, etc want to travel across London and only serve periphery interchange services? Probably more likely to put up a strop than Mancs and Brummies, as those people wouldn't travel across the city, but Mancs and Brummies would prefer to not have a few more minutes added to the vast majority of their journeys by having to go via Heathrow as well.

If stopping HS2 & GWML fast trains there, you won't get away with stopping them at Old Oak. Or rather the other way round - stopping at the better sited (and better connected) station at Old Oak would mean that you won't get away with stopping at Heathrow Hub.


> The hub option allows for services to go from HS2 to the South Coast.
> The HS2 ltd study was far too limited in scope.


While more people would use such services, you are still diverting trains away from London: you have at most 2tph (which would block any expansion of HS2 services to London), which is rather a waste of £3 billion, even if going to Portsmouth or something (assuming another couple of billion spend on a High Speed line to Woking). The Heathrow link can be done by, and it's likely that the Reading shuttles on the GWML would go via Winchester to the South Coast to relieve Waterloo - so a change at Old Oak would perform exactly the same function, other than adding access from the incredibly busy M25 (do you really want to add more traffic heading to Heathrow - this time to get a train north a few minutes quicker?)

A rail link on that sort alignment would work best as a more local link - from the Chiltern line to Staines would go a long way, though Watford-Heathrow-Woking would work well (especially to remove some freight from Reading and Oxford).


----------



## 33Hz

Have you actually read the Arup proposal I linked up thread? It deals with all these issues and more. The best thought out document I've seen on the subject. 

A high speed line to Woking doesn't come into it :nuts:


----------



## sotonsi

I have read the Arup proposal - several points on it:
1)At times it seems to be on a loop of HS2, other times it's on the mainline.
2)I note it uses a totally different route of HS2 through the Chilterns to the actual one.
3)I also note that GWML services would be able to go to Euston - why is that needed and where are the paths for it?
4)Where on earth is an Old Oak Common Station? Massively needed for Central London distribution to avoid overloading Euston.
5)No discussion of my complaints about such a plan - massive cost, few paths for Heathrow (OK it's a loop, so trains will go to London), little time saving over Old Oak for the few North-Heathrow/Slough/Reading passengers (ie few benefits) and such a time saving added on to those travelling North-London journeys who are much more plentiful (ie all the benefits are outweighed instantly - as I've said it's not worth doing even if it cost no money to build).

The Woking idea was Greengauge's - it's not all about you or the Arup document! That said, I was addressing your point re:Arup - I'll do so here, understanding the proposed scheme better:
What purpose does that serve? other than giving increased trains to Reading, Basingstoke and Southampton (which can be done on the GWML fasts as proposed by Network Rail, using the HEx paths), it is pointless and a waste of paths on the High Speed Rail network. I saw the comment and was expecting HS2 services to Portsmouth/Soton from the North - not London, where they would use next to none of HS2 (and given the lack of paths for such trains, it's not really HS2, so much as extra tracks).

The only way the Arup document could be well thought out was if it was made before the phase 1 route announcement. Even then there's no critical thinking. AFAICS it's either a naive document published before the route announcement, or an advert aimed at politicians who want Heathrow on HS2 and have it in their power to offer consultancy work.


----------



## 33Hz

Your points 1-5 and your thinking that we are talking about London-Southampton using part of HS2 show exactly that you've either not read it or forgotten it!


----------



## sotonsi

Point 3 and Southampton HS2 services: there's a diagram on page 7 showing a connection and more importantly, table 4 on page 45, which has


> Inter Regional high speed trains from M3 corridor - Southampton/ Basingstoke, call Reading 2tph To Euston.


 as well as 1tph International services using a GWML to HS2 link.

It does mention Old Oak Common, but only in the context of it not being as good at relief at Euston as Heathrow Hub and therefore should be removed - they don't give a figure to compare with the 20% Arup reckon on Heathrow Hub (most of which seem to be changing onto Crossrail heading into London), but HS2 Ltd reckon on something like 33-40% using Old Oak Common.

Differing route for HS2 (and once again, total ignorance about the lack of paths, unless it is a loop):


page 30 said:


> We also propose that a connection between HS2 and the Chiltern line, *near to High Wycombe*, should be seriously considered. That would enable high speed domestic trains to run via the short section of HS2 to Heathrow Hub, Euston and the Thames Gateway. These proposed regional services would offer significant transport benefits to people living in the Chiltern area, Milton Keynes and south Midlands, providing improved public transport services and reduced journey times into Heathrow.


You could make a link near Wendover/Aylesbury, or near Denham, but neither of these appear in the document, and all the diagrams suggest a via M40-corridor route. You could argue that they didn't know, but they knew about the Old Oak Common station (itself not something known about until the route was published), so I say that they are simply being silly.

To call this document well thought out is either a troll or idiocy. I know I haven't addressed all my points with quotes - frankly I can't be assed.

You say that because I'm talking about London - Southampton services using HS2, I mustn't have read it and that "The hub option allows for services to go from HS2 to the South Coast." and keep on barking on about the Arup study. As the Arup study only talks about one form of HS2 - South Coast service, the London - Heathrow - Reading - Southampton trains must be what we're talking about.

If we're not talking about HS2-South Coast services laid out by Arup, we must be talking about the Greengauge idea that the Heathrow Spur would head south to the SWML near Woking, allowing Birmingham/Manchester to South Coast trains to run, via Heathrow (like the Lille-Lyon services via CDG in France) - but you said we weren't talking about that either.


----------



## 33Hz

The work was done between 2006-9 and published in 2009, so it predates the HS2 ltd route announcement.

I'm not sure where you get this idea of lack of paths.


----------



## sotonsi

From every single HS2 document - there's either room for Heathrow paths / bizarre trains to Southampton or there's room for growth:
Day 1 of Phase 2, the service pattern will be: 4 Birmingham, 3 Manchester, 3 Leeds, 2 Liverpool, 2 Scotland, 2 Newcastle. Originally they reckoned on 14tph and thus such a service pattern was quart in a pint pot - now they reckon they can squeeze 18 paths and hour - with 16tph already, and 1 international path, there's not room for 2 Euston - Southampton paths, or the HS1 - Heathrow shuttle. Likewise with a spur (HS2 Ltd/Greengauge) it becomes a white elephant that carries a small number of half-empty trains at great expense to built and run.

If it's a loop via Heathrow/mainline via Heathrow, then there's paths to serve Heathrow (though not paths for trains to be able to non-stop like Arup have), but you adding on between 5 and 10 minutes for 95% of passengers to save 5 minutes for the remaining 5%. You've also changed the total travelling to Euston, rather than changing to Crossrail from 66% to 80%. Euston won't cope, even with Crossrail 2.

Basically Arup's plans need to be re-thought out in a major way to be compatible with the now existing plans for the rest of the line - stop using that document like it's sensible - it probably was somewhat sensible in 2009, though despite knowing about Old Oak Common doesn't address that alternative other than a quick statement about interchange options with nothing to back it up other than assertion.


----------



## makita09

Yes there is a path problem - they might squeeze out another two eventually - great. IMO HS2 should be 4 track to Lichfield. I guess we're just gonna have to build HS3/4/5/6/7 and 8.


----------



## 33Hz

Seems they need to amalgamate the Scottish trains with Newcastle or Manchester.

They almost certainly would need 4 tracks between HS1 and Heathrow to do this properly. Is that a bad thing?


----------



## makita09

^^ I don't follow...?


----------



## 33Hz

What I meant was that instead of having separate trains for Manchester, Newcastle and Scotland, one or more of those needs to be combined to save paths (e.g. make Manchester a through station, not terminus).

Interesting report from Greengauge21 on carbon reductions potential: The carbon impacts of HS2

I don't believe they will see as many carbon reductions from flights if transfer passengers are forced to go hither and thither to get to Heathrow...


----------



## makita09

Yeah I suppose, it wouldn't make sense for all services but perhaps some of them - Liverpool and Manchester used to be served by half of their Euston trains going via Birmingham New St (back in the 70s) - no reason why this sort of strategy can't make sense. But, it would still be a bit of a fudge and I'm uncomfortable with it. When it comes to Scotland services, the ultimate strategy must consider ECML and WCML services to Scotland from London (ECML) and the Midlands / XC (WCML), and work together with them. I believe every other HS2 London-Scotland train could be made to call at Manchester and make some sort of strategic sense, but I'd have to assess such a timetable to be convinced.


----------



## CityDreamer

Looks like the Scots have given up waiting for the UK government at Westminster to bring high speed rail to Scotland, and want to press ahead with a line between Glasgow and Edinburgh (reducing the travel time to below 30 minutes)
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...inburgh-travel-to-under-30-minutes.1352718659


----------



## Sopomon

Can Scotland even afford that?


----------



## Kolothos

Sopomon said:


> Can Scotland even afford that?


Absolutely. Whether or not it's a good use of money is up for debate though.

The main purpose of this line would be to have high speed infrastructure already in place, so that any future link to HS2 (which probably won't be til the 2040s, provided it ever does happen) can be made.

Scotland has plenty of money, why do people always have this preconception of Scotland?


----------



## Sunfuns

CityDreamer said:


> Looks like the Scots have given up waiting for the UK government at Westminster to bring high speed rail to Scotland, and want to press ahead with a line between Glasgow and Edinburgh (reducing the travel time to below 30 minutes)
> http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...inburgh-travel-to-under-30-minutes.1352718659


It's only about 75 km between both cities so extra fast train is not needed to get under 30 min and thus costs are unlikely to be extraordinary high.


----------



## Kolothos

If this does go ahead, essentially, HS2 will be built from 'either end', so to speak.

On the English end: London to Birmingham, and on the Scottish end: Glasgow to Edinburgh.

Provided of course, that Westminster would trust Holyrood in completing it's own end by committing to building a line to the borders.


----------



## Kolothos

An old Transport Scotland document from 2007 mentions some proposals for High Speed.

One option included a new deep level terminus for Glasgow. It would be located under George Square, and would most likely have pedestrian links to Central and Queen Street direct from the new terminus.

On the Edinburgh end, the high speed line would run on top of the current E&G route into Haymarket, forming a sort of double-deck alignment, with a street-level station at Haymarket.


----------



## makita09

CityDreamer said:


> Looks like the Scots have given up waiting for the UK government at Westminster to bring high speed rail to Scotland, and want to press ahead with a line between Glasgow and Edinburgh (reducing the travel time to below 30 minutes)
> http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...inburgh-travel-to-under-30-minutes.1352718659


As Scottish transport is devolved in the UK to Holyrood this is not a surprise. In other words it is not Westminster's job to plan railways in Scotland.



Sunfuns said:


> It's only about 75 km between both cities so extra fast train is not needed to get under 30 min and thus costs are unlikely to be extraordinary high.


Extra fast trains from England will be using it though, so it will come at full price.


----------



## Sunfuns

makita09 said:


> Extra fast trains from England will be using it though, so it will come at full price.


The article said max 225 km/h witch is significantly cheaper than 300 km/h


----------



## M-NL

Anything above 250 km/h must comply to the high speed TSI's, under that you must comply with the normal speed TSI's.

DBAG als uses this distinction as a loop hole for the new ICx's (Vmax 249 km/h).

Over a distance of 75 km any extra speed increase would only give minimal travel time reduction. For comparison: In the Netherlands a 250 km/h HST is only 3 minutes faster that a regular 160 km/h train over the same 68 km line from Schiphol to Rotterdam.

So something in the order of 225 km/h to 240 km/h makes a lot of sense.


----------



## makita09

Sunfuns said:


> The article said max 225 km/h witch is significantly cheaper than 300 km/h


a) Doesn't matter what the article said, this is the scottish link to HS2 - a high speed line designed for 400km/h. The Scots won't limit the speed to 225km/h. When it comes to their own trains for the central belt they may only buy 225km/h-capable trains, just like the HS1 Domestic trains.

b) It won't be significantly cheaper.

From Network Rail's New Lines Programme paper.


----------



## Sunfuns

M-NL said:


> Over a distance of 75 km any extra speed increase would only give minimal travel time reduction. For comparison: In the Netherlands a 250 km/h HST is only 3 minutes faster that a regular 160 km/h train over the same 68 km line from Schiphol to Rotterdam.
> 
> So something in the order of 225 km/h to 240 km/h makes a lot of sense.


There must be some additional speed restrictions. If we were to assume that 160 km/h train runs at 160 km/h for 64 km (allowing 4 km for picking up speed and braking) and 250 km/h train runs at 250 km/h for the same 64 km, the difference ought to be 8 min (24 min vs 16 min for 64 km).

Of course it's still true that for distances like this 249 km/h would be just fine. 

By the way do trains from London to Glasgow go via Edinburgh (or vice versa) or is the line from England splitting up earlier?


----------



## Kolothos

It depends. The main route into Glasgow, the WCML (Virgin) splits in two. So you can travel to _either_ Glasgow Central (From London Euston and Birmingham New Street) or Edinburgh (From Birmingham New Street).

However, the ECML (East Coast) runs from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh, with one train per day terminating at Glasgow Central _via_ Edinburgh.

HS2 would serve Glasgow and Edinburgh in a similar fashion to the WCML.


----------



## M-NL

Sunfuns said:


> There must be some additional speed restrictions. The difference ought to be 8 min (24 min vs 16 min for 64 km).


The first and last few km's around the stations are slower of course (in the order of 40 km/h to 80 km/h). But more important, because of network capacity and platform availability a slight buffer has been built into the time table, otherwise any disturbance would cause delays.


----------



## Kolothos

A project has appeared on Transport Scotland's website, titled ''Glasgow's Terminal Stations'' - priced at £1.5-3bn, with a date of '2019'.

And, as for Scotland being able to afford that sort of money, it's been announced that the A9 road is getting a £3bn overhaul.


----------



## Mr. B

^^ That project has been on their website for a while now, it's got little to do with High Speed, it's due to the fact that Central & Queen Street are expected to reach capacity very soon and expansion of either is highly unlikely, therefore a new Terminus is the likely solution. Several options are being considered, one is for a new surface station at St. Enoch's, the other option is for a new tunnel to be bored with a station built as part of this. The underground option also includes the chance of creating a metro system using the Cathcart Circle & several other lines.


----------



## 33Hz

The already seems to be a widespread assumption that HS2 phase 3 to Scotland will run on the route of the WCML, with split services to Glasgow and Edinburgh. Is it me or is the network being designed to be as fragmented as possible? 

No disrespect to the people of Carlisle, but if the choice is a route through Cumbrian mountains or the comparatively flat East Coast where there is a conurbation of a couple of million people - serving Tyne and Wear, Edinburgh and Glasgow with one train - surely the choice is a no-brainer?


----------



## flierfy

33Hz said:


> The already seems to be a widespread assumption that HS2 phase 3 to Scotland will run on the route of the WCML, with split services to Glasgow and Edinburgh. Is it me or is the network being designed to be as fragmented as possible?
> 
> No disrespect to the people of Carlisle, but if the choice is a route through Cumbrian mountains or the comparatively flat East Coast where there is a conurbation of a couple of million people - serving Tyne and Wear, Edinburgh and Glasgow with one train - surely the choice is a no-brainer?


The East Coast route is 80 km longer. A longer route, however, wastes valuable minutes which these high speed services are meant to save. So routing the line to Scotland via the northeast of England doesn't make sense at all.


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## makita09

Its longer, the east coast means that Birmingham - Glasgow will be quicker on a Pendolino than on HS2, 80 miles further is billions of pounds more expensive, London - Glasgow will not obtain the market share it would otherwise. Frankly the east coast is a terrible idea and the only reason why LNER went that way was because the WCML had already been built.

I don't understand why there is any doubt that the west coast option is THE option. Just as I do not understand how anyone thought the s-network was a better idea than the y-network.


----------



## Christopher125

makita09 said:


> I don't understand why there is any doubt that the west coast option is THE option.


...especially when you consider that both Glasgow _and_ Edinburgh are west of Manchester, however counter-intuitive that may seem.

Chris


----------



## 33Hz

HS2 route: Manchester and Liverpool win while Sheffield loses out


----------



## makita09

..


----------



## 1772

http://www.crewechronicle.co.uk/cre...s-as-34-billion-waste-of-time-96135-32705433/


----------



## robhood




----------



## poshbakerloo

You can see how it was going to go through the middle of Tatton, since changed


----------



## GCarty

Won't HS2 just further increase London's domination over the rest of England?

http://fromarsetoelbow.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/new-metropolitan-line.html


----------



## Sopomon

GCarty said:


> Won't HS2 just further increase London's domination over the rest of England?
> 
> http://fromarsetoelbow.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/new-metropolitan-line.html


No.


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## makita09

No. The fact that London is the seat of power ensures that.


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## Kolothos

Scotland seems to be pressing on with it's own high speed line:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21521429

It's being described as a Glasgow-Edinburgh line, but the real reason for this line is most definitely the start of Scotland's 'end' of HS2. 

But it also brings up some interesting thoughts.. A Scottish HS network linking the countries main population centres - Glasgow/Edinburgh to Dundee and Aberdeen - would be fantastic for the country, and hypothetically, a service from Aberdeen to London, and on to continental Europe, would be possible!

There's probably little business case for that, but seeing ICE3 and Eurostar trains pull into Scottish stations would be brilliant.


----------



## Busfotodotnl

Video of a full-length Velaro being transported from Germany to Belgium.


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^

What for?

I thought they were still years away from delivery?


----------



## M-NL

Testing? It must be certified for at least 3 countries, the tunnel and several security systems. If they want to run to additional countries (DE, NL, CH?) that will take extra time again.

Also because of the large amount of software involved that will require rigorous testing as well. Fortunately one major potential problem is avoided: coupling of multiple sets is not supported for this model (it's already 400m long)


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## makita09

I don't like the livery


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## Silly_Walks

makita09 said:


> I don't like the livery


Yeah, I think everybody here agreed the original livery they showed was MUCH better than what they eventually put on the trains.


----------



## Hoskins

Anyway... some actual news about the UK's HS2 plans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23070506



> The proposed budget for the HS2 railway has risen by nearly £10bn to more than £40bn, the transport minister has said.
> 
> Patrick McLoughlin told the Commons the new projected cost of £42.6bn, up from £33bn, included "contingency" money.
> 
> He said the final cost could be lower than the new estimate, but said revising the figure was "right".
> 
> Several MPs criticised the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill in a debate, but a bid to quash it was defeated by 325 to 37 votes.
> 
> The new high-speed railway line is intended to link London to Birmingham by 2026, with branches to Manchester and Leeds, via Sheffield, planned by 2032.
> 
> The first phase budget is now £21.4bn, with £21.2bn for phase two. These figures include a contingency fund of £14.4bn across the scheme.
> 
> (continues)


----------



## 3737

Silly_Walks said:


> Yeah, I think everybody here agreed the original livery they showed was MUCH better than what they eventually put on the trains.


True altough it looks a lot better on the old class 373 somehow.









A what if they bought the new trains from alsthom.


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## 33Hz

The first HS2 bill has passed by an overwhelming majority in the Commons.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24753394


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## Sopomon

^^

Thank god, Ed Balls is such a slimy c***. Flip-flopping here and there and throwing huge projects at risk, just to further his own image.

Hopefully Labour has their act together now so that both major parties can work on HS2 constructively.


----------



## 33Hz

Well, it's clear that a lot of MPs abstained. I imagine that a lot of those were on the Labour benches, so there is still a lot of politicking to be done before the next bill (authorising compulsory purchase powers) in the new year.

But the Tory rebellion that the obviously biased BBC was predicting failed to materialise.

There is also set to be a further announcement about continuing the route to Scotland later. I think the BBC has got the wrong end of the stick in this article, which is fairly nondescript about what is happening: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24766765

If we aren't aiming for 2 hours to Glasgow/Edinburgh, it's a bad job IMHO.


----------



## Mediarail.be

*Hitachi moving headquarters of lucrative rail business to Britain in pre-emptive bid to build trains for HS2 line*

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...chi-moving-rail-business-Britain-HS2-bid.html

This is Money - 20th march 2014 - by RAY MASSEY, TRANSPORT EDITOR

Japanese giant Hitachi is to move the headquarters of its lucrative rail business to Britain in what is seen as a pre-emptive bid to build the 180mph trains for the Government’s controversial £50billion HS2 line. Its corporate headquarters will switch from Tokyo to London – with a British executive rather than a Japanese national as global boss - in what minsters hailed today as 'an incredible vote of confidence' in the UK. Hitachi Rail was previously at the centre of a furious 'British jobs for British workers' row when it clinched a major rail contract for intercity trains ahead of UK-based but Canadian-owned rival Bombardier in Derby.

Hitachi Rail was worth just under £1billion in 2012 before it won the £1.2bn order to build the intercity trains last year. Moving its corporate headquarters to Britain – closer to its factory at Newton Aycliffe in County Durham which is currently being constructed - is seen as a way of defusing such criticism when, as expected, it bids for the £7billion contact to build trains for the controversial £50billion HS2 line from London to Manchester and the North. Earlier this year Hitachi Rail Europe said their factory in Newton Aycliffe will act as their European hub for train manufacturing and exports. 

A Hitachi Rail source said: 'This scotches once and all any criticism Hitachi Rail is not British enough. The trains parts are made in Britain, using parts sourced across the UK, the staff are British and now the headquarters of the entire global company is based in Britain – that’s a lot more British than a Canadian firm with its headquarters based in Germany.' Hitachi Rail Global is growing from a business employing 2,500 people today to 4,000 people in the next two and a half years. Turnover is £1.67bn today with the aim of growing to £2.5bn in the next few years. The relocated firm will be headed by Alistair Dormer, currently executive chairman of Hitachi Rail Europe, who will take over as Global CEO of the rail systems business.

Mr Dormer said: 'Today’s announcement is a significant sign of intent by Hitachi to grow its business in the rail market and I am excited by the level of trust placed in me to lead our growing business in this next phase of expansion.' He said: 'Both the UK and Japan remain important as markets for Hitachi Rail, and with our train factory in the North East of England now under construction, we will work to realise our export potential from the UK, expanding into Europe and emergent markets.'

He added: 'We will continue to deliver excellent service to our customer base whilst seeking new markets and opportunities for expansion.' Hitachi Rail said: 'The management team will boost the growth of the business in the UK and Europe and will oversee the rapid capability expansion through establishing a manufacturing base in the UK and nationwide maintenance facilities to support the Class 800 series trains and anticipated new orders.' Hitachi Rail Europe is currently contracted to provide new rolling stock for the £5.8billion Intercity Express Programme (ICE). The Department for Transport (DfT) is procuring them to replace the Intercity 125 and 225 fleets on the East Coast and Great Western Main Lines with electric and 'bi-mode' trains. 

Transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin said: 'This is an incredible vote of confidence in a growing Britain that is exporting more and making great things once again. 'Nothing says that better than the company that built the first bullet train putting its HQ here to sell abroad, alongside a new factory and new jobs in northern England. 'This is just the sort of growth we want to see more of as we invest in rail and build HS2.'

Business Secretary Vince Cable said: 'This move demonstrates a huge vote of confidence in Britain, its workers and its rail industry from one of Japan’s biggest businesses. It follows the company's announcement last year of 750 new jobs at their factory in Newton Aycliffe. 'It’s further testament to the Government’s industrial strategy which is giving companies of Hitachi's stature the confidence to invest in the UK, creating new jobs and increasing exports that will help sustain long-term economic growth.'

One Hitachi insider said: 'This is an unprecedented move for the Japanese conglomerate, as it will see all decisions about the global development of the rail business being made in the UK. It highlights the faith the company's leaders have in the skills and experience of the UK management team.'


----------



## k.k.jetcar

^^
Interesting about the possible designs on the HS2 line. It is already known that Hitachi Rail is planning on bidding on ScotRail contracts as well as in Merseyside. There is also talk of bidding on a DB contract (S-Bahn stock?), though I reckon the chances of winning that would be slim or none, and slim has left the building...


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## Klausenburg

k.k.jetcar said:


> There is also talk of bidding on a DB contract (S-Bahn stock?), though I reckon the chances of winning that would be slim or none, and slim has left the building...


Not quite. Polish Pesa won a 470 EMU/DMU trainsests order from DB, therfore, I see no reason why Hitachi couldn't win a order from DB...


----------



## AlexNL

DB buys whatever suits their demands best. If Siemens or Bombardier offer the best proposition the order goes to them, but in the past plenty of orders have gone to Alstom and more recently also to CAF and Pesa. 

It's a smart move of Hitachi to move their rail business to London. I am curious to see if this means that they will start to participate in EU wide tenders and if they do, if they can keep up their quality standards.


----------



## eminencia

AlexNL said:


> DB buys whatever suits their demands best. If Siemens or Bombardier offer the best proposition the order goes to them, but in the past plenty of orders have gone to Alstom and more recently also to CAF and Pesa.
> 
> It's a smart move of Hitachi to move their rail business to London. I am curious to see if this means that they will start to participate in EU wide tenders and if they do, if they can keep up their quality standards.


Japanese (Hitachi) built trains have the best on-time and reliability records, haven´t they? The issue here might be the succesful lobbying and tendering. Implementation of european technical standards would the easier part.

It would be nice to see Japanese trains on European rails.


----------



## po8crg

eminencia said:


> It would be nice to see Japanese trains on European rails.


Come to Kent, in England then! The class 395 (Javelin) trains were built in Japan by Hitachi.


----------



## Mediarail.be

po8crg said:


> Come to Kent, in England then! The class 395 (Javelin) trains were built in Japan by Hitachi.


Yes, pictures from 2007 here. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/hitachi-class-395-emu-arrives-in-britain.html

and the last in 2009 ?


----------



## Mediarail.be

*Could the HS2 rail link revive Birmingham’s property market?*

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/cfd4f96a-a940-11e3-b87c-00144feab7de.html#axzz2wihrQSgE

The Financial Time - 22th march 2014 - by Graham Norwood

Birmingham’s housing market recovery may be lagging behind many other parts of the country but the city’s estate agents are pinning their hopes for a renaissance on one specific infrastructure improvement – the HS2 rail project.

The project is still in its early stages and is vulnerable to a change in political sentiment. However, should it go ahead, from 2026, Birmingham would be the first stop – and for some years, the only stop – on northbound HS2 services from London, and the current 85-minute train journey would be slashed to 50 minutes.

The £50bn line could eventually run to Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds, too, but many claim Birmingham is already the biggest winner, 12 years before the first train is due to arrive. The rail service operator, HS2 Ltd, is holding seminars in the city this spring asking residential and commercial builders how the project can “raise awareness and understanding of the development opportunities and maximise local benefits”.
Some estate agents believe that the two-and-a-half hour car journey from central Birmingham to central London deters people from living in the West Midlands city, while the prospect of a mere 50 minutes on a train may reverse that trend.

“HS2 is already having a positive effect. The Hive development [of low-cost flats] is located very close to the anticipated terminal and has been the best-selling new-build scheme in the city over the last two years,” says Mark Evans of Knight Frank. His hope is that HS2 would revive Birmingham and especially its city centre as a place to live. At present only 2,500 people out of the total 1.1m population live within the centre and while average property prices across Birmingham have risen 3 per cent over the past year, slightly below the UK average, they remain 9 per cent down on 2007 levels.

For Birmingham, Britain’s second city with the largest population and GDP outside London, things looked very different seven years ago, before the downturn in the UK housing market. Then the city’s inner core was filled with flamboyant schemes, such as The Mailbox, a revamped old postal centre, and The Cube, an aluminium-clad 25-storey block, where asking prices were more than £500 per sq ft. The penthouse in a 24-storey tower was on sale for £1.65m and there were plans for a 50-storey project, which aimed to do the same for Birmingham that the Sears Tower did for Chicago.

Birmingham house prices
Today the city centre market looks more modest. Property consultant Jones Lang LaSalle says most new-build schemes in Birmingham are priced at £220 to £250 per sq ft with a few in prime sites at £300. There is only a small pipeline of new schemes. “There were far too many apartments of all shapes and sizes built in the city centre and the market was completely flooded. These have now dropped significantly in price,” says Sue Bennett of Hadleigh estate agency. Now high-end buyers look not to the centre but instead at two affluent suburbs with good schools – Edgbaston and Harborne – plus easily accessible areas outside the city. Edgbaston has 20,000 residents living in a range of Georgian, Victorian and interwar family houses. The area was spared the substantial industrial and commercial developments seen in much of the rest of Birmingham thanks to a ban on the construction of factories and warehouses in the 19th century. As a result, the area is leafy, quiet and regarded as one of the prime city addresses, yet less than two miles southwest of the centre. There are a number of houses in Edgbaston with substantial grounds, such as Aldorham, an eight-bedroom Victorian house set 200ft back from the road with 1.2 acres of grounds. The property is on sale through Fine & Country for £2.75m. Close by is a Georgian house with seven bedrooms, priced at £2.3m with Bowkett Briggs.

Harborne, a suburb just east of Edgbaston, consists mostly of 1930s houses with large gardens. Among the larger homes is an eight-bedroom house with 5,100 sq ft of living space, extensive parking and garaging, priced at £2.5m through Ribchester. Purchasers in these locations include those working at the city’s four universities, returning expats and long-term visitors from overseas posted to major employers in the city such as Jaguar Land Rover and Cadbury Trebor Bassett. Buyers looking further afield might wish to consider Solihull, nine miles from the centre and a 15-minute drive to Birmingham airport, or Sutton Coldfield, a town described as “Birmingham’s answer to Ascot” by James Way of Knight Frank because of its glut of high-end gated houses.“The market hasn’t been strong for £1m-plus homes in the past year with very few active buyers but towards the end of last year we started to see signs of improvement,” says Way.
Local agents say some buyers considering Sutton Coldfield are being deterred by a proposal in the latest draft of the Birmingham Development Plan, which is the blueprint for building 80,000 new homes for an additional 150,000 city residents by 2031. The draft calls for up to 6,000 properties to be built on greenbelt land in the Sutton Coldfield area. Local Conservative MP Andrew Mitchell claims the Sutton proposal is unnecessary as there is existing planning consent for 17,000 new homes within Birmingham, plus more than 11,000 empty existing homes. He says: “Everyone can accept that we need to build more but brownfield sites and existing permissions already granted should bear the brunt.”

Birmingham city council recognises it needs to do more to find sites for new homes and its current level of 1,300 new homes a year is well behind its own targets of 2,500 by 2016 and more than 3,000 annually from 2021.
With buyer numbers on the rise it may turn out that it is this longstanding shortage of homes, rather than a new train line to London, that lies behind a renaissance in Birmingham’s property prices in the near future.


----------



## Sandblast

Mediarail.be said:


> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/cfd4f96a-a940-11e3-b87c-00144feab7de.html#axzz2wihrQSgE
> 
> .......and The Cube, an aluminium-clad 25-storey block, where asking prices were more than £500 per sq ft.


Yes, great times just around the corner for Birmingham with the arrival of HS2.

Hadn't realised The Cube building was made from aluminium!!!


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...w/view/hs2-signs-up-japanese-consultants.html
> 
> *HS2 signs up Japanese consultants*
> 03 Apr 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: HS2 Ltd has signed a contract for consultancy services with Japan International Consultants for Transportation, a company owned 53% by East Japan Railway. The contract with an undisclosed value began on January 31 and runs for four months to May 31.
> 
> Areas covered by the deal include ways of reducing pantograph noise, methods of cutting micro-pressure waves in tunnels, reliability analysis of operations and maintenance, comparisons between slab and ballasted track designs, asset management and station management. An interim report on pantograph noise has already been submitted to HS2 Ltd.
> 
> The announcement on April 3 foreshadows JR East’s opening of a London office on April 15. According to JR East Vice-Chairman Masaki Ogata, the London office has been established to foster information exchange, carry out market research, conduct public relations activity and develop partnerships with UK companies, including suppliers. ‘JR East has a vision to develop its business globally, and we plan to share our expertise not just in the UK but worldwide’, he said.
> 
> Asked if JR East planned to bid for franchises in the UK, Ogata said ‘it is not determined yet, but we are very interested in franchises. We must do further analysis and investigate the market further’. JICT sent a fact-finding mission to the UK in March which is drawing up a report on business opportunities in the UK for Japanese operators.
> 
> Prof Andrew McNaughton, Technical Director of HS2 Ltd, said that ‘we have much to learn from our Japanese friends operating high speed railways in a densely-populated urban environment’. Noting that ‘in Japan you can see how cities have regenerated on the back of investment in high speed rail’, he said that HS2 needed to operate ‘utterly safely’ and ‘with Japanese reliability. When it opens, it has to work, and it has to work fabulously for many decades’, he asserted.
> 
> The agreement with JICT and JR East ‘gives us access to deep knowledge’ of high speed rail, he continued, including integration with the conventional network. This was a reference to JR East’s mini-Shinkansen services which operate over regauged routes to reach cities off the high speed network such as Akita and Yamagata in northern Japan. These are comparable to HS2’s proposed services to cities not on the HS2 route using ‘classic-compatible’ trains.


----------



## phoenixboi08

dimlys1994 said:


> From Railway Gazette:


They're really doing well with exporting expertise. Texas is also consulting with JR Central (though, I don't think this particularly management company). Quite interesting.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Camden New Journal:



> http://www.camdennewjournal.com/new...nment-build-hs2-link-tunnel-under-camden-town
> 
> *Exclusive: Boris Johnson asks government to build HS2 link tunnel under Camden Town*
> 16 April, 2014, by TOM FOOT
> 
> MAYOR of London Boris Johnson will call for a giant tunnel to be built under Camden to replace the abandoned HS1/HS2 link line as part of a formal objection to High Speed 2 next month.
> 
> In a letter to Transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin obtained by the New Journal, the London Mayor adopts a new, more combative and oppositionist tone on the £50billion project.
> 
> The letter, dated March 10, outlines a list of concerns about the scheme and demands that a “segregated tunnel” is built to link HS2 trains with the Eurostar railway in a move that would help HS2 “meet the longer term needs of the UK”.
> 
> Work could begin during phase 2 of the project, when the line is extended to Manchester and Leeds, which is not expected to start until 2020.
> 
> Mr Johnson warns Mr McLoughlin that he is “disappointed” with some elements of the HS2 scheme and says he will object when a parliamentary process begins next month.
> 
> His letter suggests that a “full-scale rebuilding” of Euston station could include creating 3,000 homes and 13,000 jobs and that other schemes such as Pan Camden Alliance’s double-deck down proposal should be “fully explored”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr Johnson has supported plans for a wide-scale redevelopment of Euston but the concept of the tunnel, which could impact on the foundations of homes across Camden, has not yet been made public.
> 
> Last week, the London Mayor’s chief of staff Sir Eddie Lister contacted the London Assembly about Mr Johnson’s “concerns”, requesting that they joined forces to “lodge a petition against HS2” before May 16.
> 
> It added that the “Mayor’s concerns about the current HS2 Bill focus on the development and regeneration issues in two particular areas: Euston and Old Oak Common.
> 
> London Assembly Member Murad Qureshi said: “For some reason they see the need to join up with the London Assembly.
> 
> “We have been approached and it shows intent from the Mayor’s office. It may be bureaucratic language, but it is a formal approach and I think that’s intriguing.”
> 
> The Leader of the House of Commons, Andrew Lansley, announced on Thursday that the second reading of the HS2 Bill will begin on April 28.
> 
> Local authorities and businesses have until May 16 to respond to the Bill, while individuals have a further week until May 23.
> 
> Camden Council has been lobbying against the £20 cost of lodging a petition against HS2


----------



## Steve Ellwood

*High speed rail will leave North East residents 'lesser citizens', warns MP*

Firstly I would mention that Simon Burns (Conservative) made a notable remark in yesterdays Commons debate on HS2, that he was looking forward to HS3 when the rail link will advance to Glasgow and across to Edinburgh - so is the North East coast not to be involved in HS3?

From today's Journal Live, copyright NCJMedia Ltd @ http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north-east-news/high-speed-rail-leave-north-7044405

*High speed rail will leave North East residents 'lesser citizens', warns MP*
Apr 29, 2014 08:30 By Jonathan Walker-JOU 










A high speed rail line approved by the House of Commons could mean North East residents are treated as second class citizens, an MP has warned.

Gateshead Labour MP Ian Mearns said the region had to challenge both the Government and Labour to explain how they would ensure the North East got a fair deal.

MPs have backed legislation authorising the construction of the first phase of the £50 billion High Speed Two (HS2) project, running from London to Birmingham, while a second stretch of line is planned to run from Birmingham to Manchester and to Yorkshire. But there are no firm plans to extend the line to the North East, although high speed trains will transfer on to the East Coast Main Line and continue to Newcastle.

Newcastle City Council hopes to use the project to boost the local economy, and city council leader Nick Forbes has written to Treasury Minister Lord Deighton calling for Government support for upgrading Newcastle Central station to ensure it is ready to become a terminus for high-speed trains.

But Mr Mearns said that without action to back the region, the North East would find itself sandwiched between Scotland, which enjoys high levels of devolution and could become an independent country in a referendum this year, and cities served by the new line. He said: “We could be in a situation where Scotland has a greater deal of autonomy through more devolution, if they haven’t gone independent, and they carry on doing economic development. Then you have these honey-pots being created in West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester, so where will the North East of England lie in terms of competition for inward investment and competition for growth finds when £50 billion is being earmarked for HS2 itself?” He added: “I think we have to pose the question, are we being treated as lesser citizens in the UK context? And I think at the moment unfortunately we are, so we’ve got to be asking the leaders of all the political parties, including my own, how are we going to redress that balance?”

*Read more @ http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north-east-news/high-speed-rail-leave-north-7044405*


----------



## dimlys1994

From The Scotsman:



> http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/scotland-would-beat-uk-to-high-speed-rail-salmond-1-3386646
> 
> *Scotland would beat UK to high speed rail - Salmond*
> 24 April 2014, by SCOTT MACNAB
> 
> _Ambitious proposals which could see a Scottish high speed rail (HSR) link built and operating decades before the current UK plans were unveiled by Alex Salmond last night_
> 
> The First Minister said that the Scottish Government would “not wait 30 years for high speed rail” to be delivered by Westminster and pledged to commission a feasibility study on work on HSR beginning from the north heading south, if Scotland becomes independent.
> 
> The announcement follows recent reports that the proposed third phase of the current high speed two (HS2) scheme from either Leeds or Manchester to Glasgow and Edinburgh would be ditched after a Yes vote.
> 
> Mr Salmond was addressing a St George’s Day audience in Carlisle last night as he set out plans for closer economic ties between Scotland and the north of England after independence.
> 
> “Under Westminster control, high speed rail won’t come to Carlisle for decades,” he said.
> 
> “An independent Scotland could do more. Rather than paying our share of the borrowing costs for high speed rail, as we wait decades for it to spread up from the south, we can use that money to build high speed rail from the north instead.
> 
> “It’s time to take positive action. I can confirm today that the Scottish Government will build on the joint work we are undertaking with the UK government.
> 
> “We will establish a feasibility study to explore in detail the options for building high speed rail from Scotland to England. In doing so, we will work closely with partners across the UK,  especially in the north of England. Of course we can’t determine the route until we undertake the feasibility study. But it is a statement of intent.”
> 
> The UK’s only high speed rail service at the moment is the Eurostar from London to Paris via the Channel Tunnel. HS2 would see a first phase from London to Birmingham.
> 
> It would split from there to both Manchester and Leeds in phase 2. Intermediate stations in the East Midlands and South Yorkshire are also planned. If phase 3 to Scotland goes ahead, it would take more than an hour off journeys between London and Edinburgh or Glasgow –which currently take between 4 hours 15 minutes and 5 hours.
> 
> But it would add billions to the £40bn scheme which is  already attracting criticism.
> 
> HS2 would see the introduction of 400m-long (1,300ft) trains with up to 1,100 seats. It would operate at speeds of up to 250mph – Eurostar, TGV and Thalys services in Europe currently hit around 185mph – and would travel up to 14 times per hour in each direction. The London-West Midlands section is expected to open in 2026 and the onwards legs to Manchester and Leeds by 2032-33.
> 
> An unnamed UK cabinet minister claimed earlier this month the extra link north of the Border was almost inconceivable in the event of a Yes vote for independence, amid concerns over the extra public investment.
> 
> Lib Dem leader Willie Rennie said last night: “By removing Scotland from the UK [Salmond] removes Scotland of any influence over acceleration of high speed rail. HSR is not an argument for independence, it’s an argument for working together.”
> 
> Scottish Conservative transport spokesman Alex Johnstone said: “The only viable way to ensure an interconnected high speed rail between the Central Belt and England is by remaining part of the UK. If Scotland was to separate from Britain there would be no reason for the UK to move beyond the current plan of Leeds and Manchester.”


----------



## Steve Ellwood

*High speed rail plans may end up slowing the North East down*

From today's Journal Live, copyright NCJMedia Ltd @ http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north-east-news/high-speed-rail-plans-slow-7073695

*High speed rail plans may end up slowing the North East down*
May 06, 2014 06:30 By Adrian Pearson 










High speed rail will slow down services from the North East to Scotland and reduce London journeys by just 11 minutes, the region is today warned.

A series of route documents have shown how the North will be increasingly isolated if the £42bn railway project is completed.

After a trickle of concerns at the plans for a new railway emerged over the last year, the final picture increasingly shows a high speed network in which Newcastle actually loses services.

Consultation documents put out by HS2 and Network Rail show:

* From 2033, Newcastle’s direct trains to and from Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow are replaced by a stopping service calling at small towns throughout the line, hugely adding to journey times;
* All London to Scotland services will go up the West Coast;
* High speed rail will replace, not add, to all existing East Coast London to Newcastle routes in order to free up capacity south of York;
* Under High speed plans, Durham would lose out on direct links, while Darlington moves from two trains an hour to London to one train;
* Total journey saving times to London when Durham’s Hitachi trains are built are just 11 minutes.
*
Read more @ http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north-east-news/high-speed-rail-plans-slow-7073695*


----------



## dimlys1994

From Ham & High:



> http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/eusto...ance_as_overseas_developers_move_in_1_3595957
> 
> *Euston station plans hang in the balance as overseas developers move in*
> Monday, May 12, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _One of the proposed designs for Euston station that has surfaced_
> 
> The future of Euston station continues to hang in the balance amid concerns from campaigners that the interests of private developers and property speculators are winning over senior political figures.
> 
> Campaigners and architects promoting what they say is a community-backed proposal for the redesign of the proposed London terminus for High Speed 2 rail link say their plans have not been given a fair hearing, and that senior officials seem intent on a design that could “wreck” the surrounding community.
> 
> It comes as Camden Council said it would be calling for Old Oak Common – a proposed HS2 station to the north – to be used as a temporary terminus for HS2 to allow more time to be given to the design and construction of Euston.
> 
> The call follows senior ministers and officials within HS2 Ltd issuing their support for a “really big” development on the site.
> 
> Concerned over the impact it could have on the community, Camden campaigners have called for any redevelopment to be done within the existing footprint of the station, known as the Double Deck Down 2 (DDD2) design.
> 
> They claim that the lure of overseas developers to London and skyscraper-style developments has meant views of Camden residents risk being ignored – and could mean hundreds of homes and businesses being demolished.
> 
> Jeff Travers, a railway architect behind DDD2, said: “I fear there’s a hidden agenda with what is happening at Euston – and that’s a private land grab at the expense of the local community.
> 
> “It’s obviously in the interests of private developers that the land is snapped up on the cheap using compulsory purchase orders and given to them as one big slab to develop.
> 
> “And the fear is that senior political figures may have been won over by the interests of large developers. But there’s an alternative to this.
> 
> “Not only is our DDD2 station design community-backed, but it also works well within the footprint of the existing station.
> 
> “It will also allow for incremental (lower risk) development on sites surrounding the station – which is much more community focused and controlled.”
> 
> The experience of the campaigners comes as another London MP, a supporter of HS2, expressed his concerns that a similar scenario is unfolding in his constituency.
> 
> Andy Slaughter, Labour MP for Hammersmith, warned the government that his community had been “intimidated and threatened” over the regeneration of Old Oak Common station in Hammersmith and Fulham.
> 
> The station is set to be a stop on the HS2 line and the area earmarked for regeneration.
> 
> Mr Slaughter complained that original estimates over job numbers had been almost halved, and that this was an example of “another land grab”.
> 
> He pleaded for the area to be “controlled by the local people” instead.
> 
> Outside influence in Euston has been spurred by the eagerness of senior government members and the head of HS2 Ltd.
> 
> Euston landowner Sydney and London Properties has already mocked up a Euston Visionary Masterplan for Euston station – an enormous above-station redevelopment with skyscrapers and shops – as well as announced a partnership with US real estate giant Related Companies, a developer building an above-station development in New York.
> 
> Camden Council, the Greater London Authority and HS2 Ltd are all involved in talks over the future of the area.
> 
> Cllr Sarah Hayward, leader of the council, said: “I’m concerned that government ministers have a plan to use Euston as a cash cow for HS2.
> 
> “It’s too early to say whether we’re getting a fair say in the talks.
> 
> “I’d say we’re making baby steps in the right direction –but I remain sceptical.
> 
> “The plan that is agreed upon could stay with us for 100 years – so we need to get it right and make sure it benefits Camden residents.
> 
> “We need it to provide jobs and housing for local people.”


----------



## Jeff Hawken

The main issue I can see with the DDD proposal for Euston is: how would you build it? At first glance it is an attractive proposition in that it reduces the local impact, but trying to build a double-deck station whilst keeping the existing station working would be well-nigh impossible. The backers of the scheme seem to be strangely silent on this aspect, probably because they haven't been able to come up with a credible proposition either.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Construction Enquirer:



> http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/05/22/hs2-poaches-thameslink-boss-for-phase-one-build/
> 
> *HS2 poaches Thameslink boss for phase one build*
> Thu 22nd May
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Crawford took over the Thameslink programme in 2009_
> 
> _HS2 has lured another senior Network Rail chief over to the £43bn high speed rail project_
> 
> Jim Crawford joins as programme director for phase one. At Network Rail he worked as major programme director for the £6.5bn congestion-busting Thameslink upgrade.
> 
> Crawford, 48, has worked on the railway since 1994 as a consultant working for Turner & Townsend.
> 
> HS2 Ltd Construction CEO Simon Kirby said: “Building Britain’s much-needed high speed rail network will be a major undertaking and we need the best people to help deliver it on schedule and within the budget we have been set.
> 
> “Jim Crawford‘s experience speaks for itself but I know just how capable he is from our time together at Network Rail working on the multi-billion pound investment in Thameslink.
> 
> “I am very pleased that someone of Jim’s calibre is joining us as we have much to do between now and when we expect to have spades in the ground in 2017.”
> 
> Crawford took over the Thameslink programme in 2009 delivering some notable milestones, including the rebuilding of London Blackfriars and Farringdon stations.
> 
> At HS2 Ltd he will be completing the set up of the team that will be responsible for the delivery of the multi-billion pound construction programme for the first phase of the new high speed rail network between London and West Midlands.
> 
> The exodus of senior Network Rail bosses started after chief executive Sir David Higgins stood down to lead the HS2 project at the start of this year.
> 
> He was followed by Network Rail’s managing director of infrastructure projects Simon Kirby, who will join HS2 as CEO for the project’s construction phase.
> 
> Away from the HS2 project, Network Rail infrastructure’s finance boss David McLoughlin also handed in his notice at the start of the year to run contractor Spencer Rail in July.
> 
> Even more recently Simon Wright OBE, currently project development director at Network Rail, has accepted the job to become Crossrail’s new programme director this summer


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/06/17/shortlist-revealed-for-hs2-college-location/
> 
> *Shortlist revealed for HS2 college location*
> 17 JUN, 2014
> 
> Birmingham, Derby, Doncaster and Manchester have been shortlisted as possible locations for a new high-speed rail engineering college in the UK.
> 
> Cities and towns around the country had bid to become the home of the National College for High Speed Rail, which will train the next generation of rail engineers.
> 
> The shortlisted locations were chosen because of the size and availability of a suitable site, accessibility, and the potential to develop strong links with rail employers and providers.
> 
> Skills and Enterprise Minister Matthew Hancock said: “I was extremely encouraged by the level of interest that has been shown by areas across the country in being part of meeting the high speed rail skills challenge.
> 
> “We received a number of very strong proposals, and not all can be taken forward to the final stage. However, it is clear that there is already some excellent partnership activity taking place between education providers and the rail industry across the country which is resulting in the delivery of some outstanding provision.”
> 
> Crossrail chairman Terry Morgan, who has been brought in as an advisor, said: “Engineering skills are vital to the rail industry, and I am hugely excited to be given the opportunity to help shape the design and development of the new college.
> 
> “We need to ensure that the college can deliver the top class training and qualifications needed, both for high speed rail and other future infrastructure projects across the country.
> 
> “I came from a vocational background, and I think the high speed rail college is a fantastic opportunity to inspire a new generation of motivated young people to follow this pathway.”


----------



## dimlys1994

From Construction Enquirer:



> http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/06/23/chancellor-floats-hs3-plan-for-the-north/
> 
> *Chancellor floats HS3 plan for the North*
> Mon 23rd June 2014, 7:29
> 
> _Chancellor George Osborne will today call for a third high speed rail line linking Manchester and Leeds_
> 
> The project would be based on the existing Manchester-to-Leeds rail line but journey times would be speeded up by building new tunnels and infrastructure.
> 
> Speaking in Manchester today, the Chancellor is expected to say: “The cities of the North are individually strong, but collectively not strong enough.
> 
> “The whole is less than the sum of its parts. So the powerhouse of London dominates more and more. And that’s not healthy for our economy. It’s not good for our country.”
> 
> “Today I want us to start thinking about whether to build a new high-speed rail connection east-west from Manchester to Leeds. A third high speed railway for Britain.”
> 
> Although no timescale or budget for HS3 has been fixed, Osborne’s move is a sign that the Government is worried that the recovery is unbalanced


----------



## poshbakerloo

I really disagree with building any new rail line in Britain to the continental loading gauge. I know our smaller loading gauge isn't ideal, but its a bit late now to suddenly do things different. Having to make 2 sizes of train to run on HS2 shows the problem. 

Why not make it all standard UK size and benefit from the saved costs of smaller tunnels and embankments and only 1 size of train, whilst maximizing compatibility with the existing network.


----------



## voyager221

poshbakerloo said:


> I really disagree with building any new rail line in Britain to the continental loading gauge. I know our smaller loading gauge isn't ideal, but its a bit late now to suddenly do things different. Having to make 2 sizes of train to run on HS2 shows the problem.
> 
> Why not make it all standard UK size and benefit from the saved costs of smaller tunnels and embankments and only 1 size of train, whilst maximizing compatibility with the existing network.


The rolling stock has to be re-designed and manufactured to fit uk loading gauge, why not just get the one off the shelf to save a lot cost, also if uk adopts the specification standard from let's say Germany, there's no need for different box girder, different slab track, different tools etc, that saves a lot as well, besides it's about time to change it, why not start from this one.


----------



## poshbakerloo

voyager221 said:


> besides it's about time to change it, why not start from this one.


But what about the existing network? We missed the opportunity 170 years ago


----------



## bastholm

deleted


----------



## hans280

poshbakerloo said:


> But what about the existing network? We missed the opportunity 170 years ago


Come on, guys! I know Britain's an island, but one can also get too insular! Countries like Spain and Japan also had unusual gauge widths in their legacy railway system. Both of them decided do move to internal standard gauge for their newly constructed Shinkansen/AVE networks. 

OK, that doesn't mean that the UK necessarily has to do likewise. But it's a bit over the top to pretend that it would be unusual, unacceptable or outrageous to do so.


----------



## Mackem

As I presume HS1 is on a continental gauge, why shouldn't HS2. Existing UK stock would still fit as the problem is not track width related, but purchasing or leasing stock would be cheaper with the availability of Traxx and Vectron rather than custom built stock. Some UK lines are being altered anyway to fit larger containers so maybe a decision needs to be taken on a longer term basis.


----------



## sotonsi

^^ indeed. The 400m captive sets are predicted to cost less than the bespoke 200m classic-compatible sets.


----------



## po8crg

poshbakerloo said:


> But what about the existing network? We missed the opportunity 170 years ago


The French raised the loading gauge of their network between the two World Wars - to what we would now call UIC GA. Took them about 20 years, though there wasn't as much OHLE back then, so it was relatively easier (and they didn't have to change platforms).

It wouldn't be impossible to have a programme to gauge-change the network; it's just that there are more important things (like electrification) to be doing.


----------



## flierfy

poshbakerloo said:


> I really disagree with building any new rail line in Britain to the continental loading gauge. I know our smaller loading gauge isn't ideal, but its a bit late now to suddenly do things different. Having to make 2 sizes of train to run on HS2 shows the problem.
> 
> Why not make it all standard UK size and benefit from the saved costs of smaller tunnels and embankments and only 1 size of train, whilst maximizing compatibility with the existing network.


European loading gauge standards are nothing new to Britain. They have already been introduced more than century ago by the Great Central railway, which used to have the bigger continental loading gauge apparently. HS1 is built along French design standards and as I understand it new bridges over existing railway lines in Britain are designed to allow the bigger loading gauge standards. In fact UIC standards are British railway standards for probably a few decades already.

Furthermore do the benefits of wider and taller trains outweigh the additional costs of larger tunnel diameters. There is no way that a new railway line is built to unfavourable and obsolete loading gauges which aren't standard in Britain anymore and probably never really were.

And to which one of the smaller Victorian loading gauges do you actually intent to build HS2? As you do know there are many which have been grouped into 6 classes.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Construction Enquirer:



> http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2015/06/17/construction-to-start-on-hs2-in-2017/
> 
> *Construction to start on HS2 in 2017*
> Wed 17th June 2015, 15:30
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The Government has confirmed construction will start on the High Speed 2 railway connecting London with Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester in 2017_
> 
> Transport Minister Robert Goodwill confirmed the start date as changes were unveiled in Parliament to the HS2 hybrid Bill which will be considered by a Select Committee.
> 
> Parliament will also debate updated plans for building the route
> 
> ...


----------



## doc7austin

A quick ride on the Southeastern service between London St Pancras and Ashford International - the train was very empty!


----------



## nossiano

Why is the train so empty?


----------



## 437.001

^^
Anti-peak flow.


----------



## jrawle

^^
Premium ticket prices.


----------



## Christopher125

flierfy said:


> European loading gauge standards are nothing new to Britain. They have already been introduced more than century ago by the Great Central railway, which used to have the bigger continental loading gauge apparently.


I believe that is an urban myth - though built to a generous loading gauge (rather like the Great Western Railway) there was no 'European' standard to build it to nor any reason to bother either.


----------



## hammersklavier

Christopher125 said:


> I believe that is an urban myth - though built to a generous loading gauge (rather like the Great Western Railway) there was no 'European' standard to build it to nor any reason to bother either.


*cough cough*


> The GCML was the last main line railway built in Britain during the Victorian period. It was built by the railway entrepreneur Edward Watkin who aimed to run a high-speed, north-south main line to London. *The line was not only designed to a specification which would permit trains to run at higher speeds, but also built to a larger loading gauge in anticipation of larger continental European trains; Watkin confidently believed that it would be possible to run direct rail services between Britain and France* and had also presided over an unsuccessful project to dig a tunnel under the English Channel in the 1880s.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Central_Main_Line

*EDIT 1:* Incidentally, I actually do think it would be a wise idea to rebuild the GCML -- the East and West Coast Main Lines' slots are both stuffed to the brim with passenger services, and while the Midland Main Line's passenger traffic is lighter, I think a freight-designated line from London to the North of England would be an excellent investment.

This would, by the way, largely replicate the pre-Beeching mainline traffic patterns, where the GCML was primarily a freight mainline.

*EDIT 2:* And yes, I'm aware that part of the point of HS2 is to deal with the principal mainlines' congestion thereby theoretically freeing more slots up for freight on the older routes, but I'm also of the opinion that induced demand will also quickly resaturate the classic lines' slots with passenger trains, such that the overall passenger markets between London and Birmingham, London and Manchester, and London and Leeds all grow.

*EDIT 3:* It's important to note that the ECML and GCML were the core of the LNER network in the Big Four era; despite the road's slick advertising, most of its money was made hauling coal ... and most of that coal was hauled on the GCML. (Not very different from the setup of e.g. the New York Central, Pennsylvania, or Baltimore & Ohio railroads in the United States.)


----------



## ramakrishna1984

It's a great thing that using drones to follow trains is just one option being considered by the UK Government to revolutionize mobile connectivity on the rail network and reduce WiFi blank spots.Government plans to invest £50m in a roll-out of free WiFi.


----------



## hans280

jrawle said:


> ^^
> Premium ticket prices.


How much does it cost to travel from St. Pancras to Ashford International, assuming one is a humble tourist without abonnement cards, etc.? I am aware that the prices in the Underground are very high compared with my home city Paris. A single fare in "le metro" costs 1.80 Euros; in "the tube" it costs 4 pounds. I wonder whether suburban trains are also 2-3 times more expensive in London?


----------



## link_road_17/7

A London St Pancras - Ashford Intl. Off-Peak Day return, valid after 0930 weekdays or all day weekends/BHols is £33.30.

Compare that to London Euston - Milton Keynes Central, a similar distance/frequency/speed: 

£15.50 (Virgin only), 
£15.90 (London Midland only), 
£22.50 (Any Permitted/Operator)


----------



## Smooth Indian

ramakrishna1984 said:


> It's a great thing that using drones to follow trains is just one option being considered by the UK Government to revolutionize mobile connectivity on the rail network and reduce WiFi blank spots.Government plans to invest £50m in a roll-out of free WiFi.


Why doesn't UK use electro diesel power cars for these InterCity trains? The diesel powered InterCity trains and the shorter voyager trainsets often run on electrified sections and adding the ability to draw power from the grid will only increase their efficiency.


----------



## Jeff Hawken

SamuraiBlue said:


> Hate to rehash but even if you connect HSR to classic tracks, the HSR is not going to magically fly High speed. Track alignment and signal system comprises 50% of the reason why those HS trains can manage those speeds in the first place. Once on classical lines the HS trains are going to be bogged down by the conventional traffic which will at the end hamper HSR time schedule and will see delays through out the system. The more you have interconnected traffic the more you will see delays and the only way to negate the problem is the limit the amount in interconnecting traffic meaning there will be about one every hour at best. Meaningless if you ask me.


May I suggest you take a look at the proposed pattern of service that has been published by HS2, and see how that compares with your statements. I'll give you a clue: only one category is "Meaningless if you ask me", and it's not the HS2 proposals.


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

jamie7991 said:


> In my opinion, there going about this all wrong. Instead of phasing the work over time, the phases should be studied, tendered and constructed at the same time. The upfront cost would be more but you don't run into issues such as new technology coming out and building a line that is 25 years old plus the issue of material/labour costs increasing over time making phase 3 (the eventual Scottish phase) really expensive in comparison to phases 1, 2a and 2b. The UK govt always seems to drag its heals on infrastructure projects meaning by the time it's built, it's already way out of date in comparison to mainland Europe or asia.
> Also, in my opinion, DfT should've looked at other options, such as maglev, rather than just trying to play a rather expensive game of catch up.


The British Government (and to an extent people) have a history of doing this. Look at almost any infrastructure in the country and it's always been a never ending game of catch up. I think it seems to come largely from the inability for groups to reach compromises in a lot of situations, resulting in years of going around in circles with a useless plan (look at heathrow) getting rejected left, right, top, and bottom by someone, somewhere.

IMO what they should have done was completely re-build the current WCML route, maybe with a new London-B'ham route. This would have been somewhat more disruptive to current ops, but the advantage in cost of land acquisition would be huge. Making a 5 track link to B'ham and a 4 to Manchester/Liverpool and a 3 track (2HS+1standard) to Glasgow/Edinburgh would enable transitioning to faster speeds for IC ops, but not create huge extra expense on the connection of a completely new line to the existing network.


----------



## suasion

Does anybody know where I could find a .shp .kml or .gpx file of HS1 to down load?


----------



## Jeff Hawken

GorbazTheDragon said:


> The British Government (and to an extent people) have a history of doing this. Look at almost any infrastructure in the country and it's always been a never ending game of catch up. I think it seems to come largely from the inability for groups to reach compromises in a lot of situations, resulting in years of going around in circles with a useless plan (look at heathrow) getting rejected left, right, top, and bottom by someone, somewhere.
> 
> IMO what they should have done was completely re-build the current WCML route, maybe with a new London-B'ham route. This would have been somewhat more disruptive to current ops, but the advantage in cost of land acquisition would be huge. Making a 5 track link to B'ham and a 4 to Manchester/Liverpool and a 3 track (2HS+1standard) to Glasgow/Edinburgh would enable transitioning to faster speeds for IC ops, but not create huge extra expense on the connection of a completely new line to the existing network.


Maglev was considered, and ruled out at an early stage, because of its fundamental incompatibility with the rest of the network. If all you ever wanted to do was link London with Birmingham, then it might have been the best solution, but since the benefits are most widely spread by offering through services (to Manchester, Liverpool, Scotland) via HS2 from the outset, the penalty for changing trains en route negated the benefits.

Rebuilding the WCML has already been done once, and a right old fiasco it was too. Since then traffic has grown considerably, and it would be impossible to repeat the task. Building new lines alongside the old ones simply wouldn't work - you end up diverging slightly to one side every time you come to a station, then wipe out a town centre instead. Building an entirely new line through open countryside is a lot less challenging.

The jury is still out as to whether there will ever be HS links through to Scotland. On the WCML there is very little in the way of habitation between Lancaster and Motherwell, apart from Carlisle. That's about 170 miles with some big lumpy hills, some important Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, and no major centres of population. It's a piece of railway I know well, and love, but there's no room for sentiment in such decisions. It is probably unaffordable - but politicians have a knack of surprising us sometimes, so I'm keeping an open mind on this one.


----------



## aeolian

suasion said:


> Does anybody know where I could find a .shp .kml or .gpx file of HS1 to down load?


Here  http://bfy.tw/2mzm


----------



## suasion

^^^^^^^^
:nuts:

sadly hs2 =/= hs1

And i have tried google


----------



## hammersklavier

suasion said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> :nuts:
> 
> sadly hs2 =/= hs1
> 
> And i have tried google


Since HS1 is an active line, you can make your own KML file by tracing it on Google My Maps and downloading the resultant file. It shouldn't take more than 10-20 mins to do (I've done it before).


----------



## quimporte

> *Le train du futur est Suisse*
> 
> Un designer bâlois est l'un des trois finalistes de la compétition britannique du design des trains de demain. Il a séduit le jury avec son Swiss Aeroliner 3000.


The Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-are-designed-to-help-ease-overcrowding.html

Le Matin (Google translation): https://translate.google.com/transl.../train-futur-suisse/story/29697204&edit-text=


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...x-years-earlier-than-planned.html?channel=523
> 
> *HS2 to reach Crewe by 2027*
> Monday, November 30, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _BRITAIN's chancellor of the exchequer Mr George Osborne confirmed on November 30 that the opening of the 69km Lichfield - Crewe section of High Speed 2 (HS2) will be brought forward by six years to extend the benefits of the new line to north-west England and Scotland sooner than originally planned_
> 
> The decision means Phase 2a will open in 2027 just a year after the initial 190km phase from 1 from London to Birmingham and a junction with the West Coast Main Line (WCML) near Lichfield in 2026. In order to accelerate construction, Phase 2a works will be authorised by parliament under a separate hybrid bill
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ctors-shortlisted-for-hs2-enabling-works.html
> 
> *Contractors shortlisted for HS2 enabling works*
> 10 Dec 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: On December 10 project delivery company HS2 Ltd announced the contractors shortlisted to carry out enabling works on the London – Birmingham Phase 1 of High Speed 2. An invitation to tender is expected early next year, with contracts worth £900m to be awarded later in 2016.
> 
> ‘Today’s shortlist marks an important milestone as we move towards the start of construction in 2017 and a real boost for the UK construction industry. Over the course of the next few years, the winning bidders will go on to employ thousands of people on site and in the supply chain, preparing the ground for the start of major civil engineering’, said HS2 Ltd Chief Executive Simon Kirby
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/final-high-speed-2-report-published.html?channel=523
> 
> *Final High-Speed 2 report published*
> Wednesday, February 24, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _THE British House of Commons Select Committee on the High-Speed 2 (HS2) Hybrid Bill has published its final report. The bill will now go forward for further consideration in the House of Parliament and then the House of Lords_
> 
> The committee heard 1600 petitions from objectors and those concerned with the construction of the first phase of the railway from London to Birmingham and recommended a longer tunnel in the Chiltern hills north of London, better noise mitigation in some locations and revisions to the planned maintenance depot at Washwood Heath, Birmingham
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2016/...rk-together-on-scottish-high-speed-rail-plan/
> 
> *Governments to work together on Scottish high-speed rail plan*
> 21 MAR, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The simultaneous publication of reports by Transport Scotland and HS2 Limited on high-speed rail options for Scotland was marked during a ceremony at Edinburgh Waverley station today (March 21).
> 
> The event was attended by Keith Brown, the Scottish Government’s Infrastructure Secretary, and Robert Goodwill, UK minister with responsibility for high-speed rail
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-one-engineering-consultants.html?channel=523
> 
> *HS2 appoints phase one engineering consultants*
> Tuesday, March 22, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _HIGH Speed Two Ltd (HS2), which is responsible for implementing Britain's second high-speed line, has appointed a team of consultants to act as its engineering delivery partner for the 190km phase one linking London with Birmingham and Lichfield_
> 
> ...


----------



## TransportNut

dimlys1994 said:


> From Global Rail News:


It's an interesting pair of reports. I'd argue, however, that the Scotland side of things is lacking. The report by HS2 comes up with some fantastic options. Hope to see this progress.


----------



## Gusiluz

*Number of high-speed passenger*



*Passengers in Eurostar* HS trains (millions)
1994:
1995: 2,920
1996: 4,995
1997: 6,004
1998: 6,308
1999: 6,593
2000: 7,130
2001: 6,947
2002: 6,603
2003: 6,315
2004: 7,277
2005: 7,454
2006: 7,858
2007: 8,261
2008: 9,113
2009: 9,220
2010: 9,529
2011: 9,680
2012: 9,912
2013: 10,133
2014: 10,398
2015: 10,399
TOTAL: 163,050

Source: http://www.eurotunnelgroup.com/uk/eurotunnel-group/operations/traffic-figures/

*Passengers in Javelin* (Southeastern) HS trains (millions)
2010: 7,200
2011: 8,200
2012: 9,000
2013: 10,000
2014: 12,410
2015:
TOTAL: 46,810

Source: 2010: http://www.southeasternrailway.co.u...ggMAI&usg=AFQjCNH9axbfjoFlpxTGN-Peh1RP7A_RWA/ 2011: http://njak100.blogspot.com.es/2012/04/hs2-worlds-busiest-high-speed-railway.html 2014: http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...development-european-regional-high-speed.html

*Passengers-kilometers in Eurostar* HS trains (billions)
1994:
1995: 0,362
1996: 0,619
1997: 0,745
1998: 0,782
1999: 0,818
2000: 0,884
2001: 0,861
2002: 0,819
2003: 0,783
2004: 1,193
2005: 1,223
2006: 1,289
2007: 1,355
2008: 1,495
2009: 1,512
2010: 1,563
2011: 1,587
2012: 1,626
2013: 1,662
2014: 1,705
2015: 1,705
TOTAL: 24,588

Source: the UIC has the Passengers-km to the end, including the European part to Paris and Brussels: 4,364 (2011). However, the personal table only takes into account the path of the Eurotunnel and the part of the HS1 in service every year, as the European part is included in their countries.

*Passengers-kilometers in Javelin* (Southeastern) HS trains (billions)
2010 0,540
2011 0,615
2012 0,675
2013 0,750
2014 0,931

The Passengers-km of the Javelin trains are personal deducted from the data of Passengers; it only serves as a approach.

Passengers and Passengers-kilometers world data, and explanation of the fact that the operators and the UIC count -in some cases- the number of passengers on high-speed trains, not on high-speed lines.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/acela-influences-alstoms-hs2-concept-train.html
> 
> *Acela influences Alstom’s HS2 concept train*
> 25 May 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The external design of the concept train is intended to reflect the 'large yet graceful' characteristics of a swan_
> 
> INTERNATIONAL: Alstom unveiled a high speed train concept design at a parliamentary reception in London on May 24. The double-deck trainset features short wheelbase power cars and 20 m long intermediate trailer cars, reflecting the company’s emerging thinking about the future of the Duplex family of high speed trains which it has supplied to French national operator SNCF over the last 20 years.
> 
> The event in London was intended to showcase ‘one possible option’ for rolling stock which would operate services on the future High Speed 2 network linking London with the West Midlands and northern England. Project delivery company HS2 Ltd had previously stated its intention to procure two fleets, one ‘captive’ to an international loading gauge for operation solely on the new-build infrastructure, and a ‘classic-compatible’ train to UK standards which would be able to run over conventional lines and provide through high speed services to Liverpool, Newcastle, Scotland and potentially other destinations
> 
> ...


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^

Looks like a cross between de AGV and the New Pendolino.


----------



## k.k.jetcar

Silly_Walks said:


> ^^
> 
> Looks like a cross between de AGV and the New Pendolino.


Though it doesn't share the distributed traction design of those units.


----------



## gazart

*Project delay forces electric trains to go diesel*
27 May 2016 at 3:24pm

















The entire fleet of new electric Hitachi bullet trains for the region are to have Diesel engines fitted because a massive upgrade of the Great Western train network is up to three years late.

It's thought the move will cost the Government tens of millions of pounds but means almost 110 carriages will not have to sit in the sidings going nowhere. It had already been planned for 36 of the trains - around 300 carriages - to run on both electric and diesel so they can also run in areas not being electrified.

The news came as Network Rial opened a new training centre in Swindon for workers on the project. The scheme in the Thames Valley was largely due for completion at the end of the yeat but today it was confirmed the £2.6 billion upgrade - which is three times over budget - will not be complete until up to three years late.

But it still means some new local trains may be late in service. Great Western railway say it is overall good news as they can introduce major improvements as soon as possible and ease crowding.








Electrification competition in the Thames Valley was due in December 2016

New completion dates:
Reading to Didcot - December 2017
Didcot to Swindon - December 2018
Reading to Newbury - December 2018
Didcot to Oxford - July 2019

_source: http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2016-05-27/project-delay-forces-electric-trains-to-go-diesel/_


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-proposes-south-yorkshire-route-revision.html
> 
> *HS2 Ltd proposes South Yorkshire route revision*
> 07 Jul 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: A significant revision of the planned route of the second phase of Britain’s national high speed network is proposed by HS2 Ltd Chairman Sir David Higgins in a report issued on July 7.
> 
> Reflecting a heated debate among local politicians, business leaders, planners and transport officials, the report has sought to amend how High Speed 2 might serve Sheffield and the surrounding region. The government had indicated in January 2013 that its preference was for a route that extended HS2 from a junction with the Phase I route near Lichfield, through the East Midlands, to serve an out-of-town station at Meadowhall, an existing rail-tram interchange east of Sheffield city centre
> 
> ...


----------



## Sopomon

33Hz said:


> Nice to see such enthusiasm - however technically this is not a high speed train of the definition used on these boards as it is only designed 125 mph / 200 km/h work.


I think on pre-existing lines 200 km/h is actually considered HSR.

From Wikipedia:



> Minimum Speed Limit: Minimum speed of 250 km/h (155 mph) on lines specially built for high speed and of about 200 km/h (124 mph) on existing lines which have been specially upgraded. This must apply to at least one section of the line. Rolling stock must be able to reach a speed of at least 200 km/h (124 mph) to be considered high speed.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...poised-to-join-virgins-hs2-franchise-bid.html

*RENFE poised to join Virgin’s HS2 franchise bid*
11 Apr 2017



















UK: Spanish national operator RENFE is understood to be the front runner to join the Virgin Rail Group joint venture of Stagecoach and Virgin Holdings to bid for the government’s upcoming West Coast Partnership franchise.

Currently Virgin (51%) and Stagecoach (49%) operate inter-city services under the Virgin Trains brand on the West Coast Main Line between London, Birmingham, northwest England and Scotland, having done so since 1997 under a series of franchises and management contracts. Passenger-journeys have grown from approximately 15 million/year in 1997 to 36 million in 2015-16. Its direct award agreement is currently expected to end in April 2019

...


----------



## Gusiluz

*Spanish HS2 trainsets*

Talgo is preparing a specific train to present it to the tender of 60 trains for the HS2.
https://twitter.com/TalgoGroup/statu...57844744433669
http://www.railtex.co.uk/

It will be in the G4 version (the G3 version is the current prototype and the Renfe 106 and S-122 series) with partially distributed traction (there are several possibilities) and _natural pendular by Talgo_; it is the only manufacturer with a tilting train at 330 km/h.

G4:


Renfe S-106 and S-122:


According to the tender each train would cost 53 M €, from Talgo tell me that includes maintenance for 12 years. The second batch (only for HS2, with normal /UIC clearance gauge) will be 100 trains.

CAF will also present its Oaris model (320 km/h today), although the one sold to Flytoget is only for 250 (it is a shuttle train to the airport: 64 km). (See the image of the previous message).


^^ Renfe tried to introduce himself with Virgin and Stagecoach (finally allied with SNCF), and also tried with MTR, but eventually will not appear, although he will apply for the passport to operate in the UK.


----------



## ArtManDoo

Wow, the renderings look really nice. The rail travel in UK will get into new level and after HS2 there might be HS3, HS4 and HS5 :


----------



## Gusiluz

*Hitachi AT400*

I present the one that surely will be the new train for the HS2:

Hitachi unveils AT400 ‘British Bullet Train’ concept


> Designed for 360 km/h operation, the 25 kV 50 Hz AT400 would have 10 to 12 cars with a nominal length of 25 m. It would have sliding pressure-sealed doors at the car ends, and interior options would include standard, business and first class, as well as catering and luggage facilities


----------



## CharlieP

Does the 400 in the name imply it's 400 km/h capable, in the same vein as the e320 and InterCity 225?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ There are no 400-certified trains, the closest being 380 km / h in China. 
The current Hitachi model is the AT300 and can only go to 225.
It's just a nice name.


----------



## AlexNL

I think it has more to do with the series to which they belong. Hitachi have other trains in the ATx00 range:

AT100 = metro (concept)
AT200 = suburban/interregio (ScotRail class 385)
AT300 = long distance / high speed (Class 395, IEP)
AT400 = very high speed

There is a bit of a connection with HS2 though:


> HS2 has been designed with a maximum line speed capability of up to 250mph (400kph). The maximum operating speed at opening would be 225mph (360kph), with services timetabled assuming an actual operating speed of around 205mph (330kph).


----------



## CharlieP

Where's that quote from?


----------



## AlexNL

It's from the Route Corridor and Design Speed Review report.


----------



## CharlieP

Thanks. I hoped it was Wikipedia, so I could change all those kph to km/h


----------



## 3737

*HS2 Ltd reveals rolling stock contract shortlist*

UK: Five bidders have been shortlisted for the contract to supply ‘at least 54’ trainsets for High Speed 2, project promoter HS2 Ltd announced on November 2.

They are Alstom Transport, Bombardier Transportation UK, Hitachi Rail Europe, Patentes Talgo and Siemens.

More info: Link


----------



## Gusiluz

*Candidate trains to the HS2*

The short list of bidders for the first trains for the British High Speed 1 has already been published.
At least 54 trains will be awarded in the spring of 2018 for about 2,750 M £ (50.93 M £ each train: 57.22 M €) with maintenance included for 12 years in the future Washwood Heath depot in Birmingham.
2017: (November): announcement of the five selected manufacturers (Alstom, Bombardier, Hitachi, Siemens and Talgo)
2018: (Spring): invitations to tender process will be issued 
2019: contract awarding 
2026: first trains enter service

They will have a maximum speed of 360 km/h, 8 cars, 200 meters long, and will serve in 2026 on the HS2 and the West Coast Main Line, so they require Stephenson gauge and tilt.

Still do not know what trains will present, but personally I think these will be.

*Alstom*
New Duplex (difficult, to have two levels and can not be tilted)


AGV


Ademe (plan)


*Bombardier*
CRH1 380 first name dismissed for CRH380D based on Bombardier Zefiro 380:



*Hitachi AT400*

















*Siemens Velaro*


*Talgo Avril G4*


Although it appears in the media, I do not think that Bombardier presents the V300Zefiro (ETR 1000 in Italy) because it is manufactured by a consortium with Ansaldo, which was bought by Hitachi.


As for Alstom, they are teaching the Avelia Liberty model, an evolution of New Pendolino suitable for speeds around 250 km/h.









HS2 on the other hand is teaching renders of a fictional model:









Models submitted to the *last international tender*, in Spain for Renfe just one year ago:

Columns in the first row:
Total cost of the contract / Cost of all trains / Cost of each train / Cost of each train including maintenance / Total cost of maintenance / Cost of maintenance of each train each year (average) / Seats

Columns in second row:
Technical score / Guarantee / Availability (% of time) / Cost of each seat including maintenance / Variable coefficient (result of applying an equation with some thirty variables: energy consumption, availability, cost of cleaning and major repairs, warranty, terms of delivery ...) / Cost of each seat taking into account the variables / Final score (the technical offer is 35 points out of 100, while the economic one is the remaining 65 for the cheapest and the rest in proportion)

Avril RD: variable gauge.

Hitachi and Bombardier withdrew without submitting an offer.

It must be borne in mind that these first trains must also *run on conventional lines* with all types of traffic, so it may be necessary to use locomotives for safety reasons for passengers. The second series (another 100 trains) will be only to circulate on the HS2 so there is no problem in having distributed traction.

They also have to be *tilters *to improve their speed on conventional lines. Alstom has the active Tiltronix system that can not be used in the Duplex, Bombardier used its own system in the Acela, Hitachi and Kawasaki have several active and passive systems only up to 1.5 degrees, Siemens used an active system from SGP in the ICE TD, and Talgo has its natural passive pendulum (natural pendular tilting 4.5 degrees), which implies giving up the wide car box (apart from the gauge) and therefore the 2 + 3 seats.

*Most similar trains that are in service*:
Alstom Euroduplex: 2 M 8 C 509/556 seats (two levels) 9.280 kW 320 km/h 200 m
Alstom AGV (ETR 575 Italo): 5 M 6 C 460 seats 8.640 kW 300 (360) km/h 200 m
Bombardier Zefiro 380 (CRH380D): 5 M 3 C 495/528 seats (wide car box) 10.000 kW 300 (380) km/h 215 m
Hitachi AT400 (plan): 10 / 12 cars 360 km/h 250 / 300 m
Siemens Velaro D (S-407): 4 M 4 C 443 seats 8.000 kW 320 km/h 201 m
Talgo Avril G3 (S-106 y S-122): 2 M 12 C 519+2 seats (wide car box, 410+2 seats in normal box) 8.800 kW 330 km/h 200 m (delivery in 2020)
Talgo Avril G4 (plan): 6 M 8 C 550 seats (normal box) 12.000 kW 380 km/h 200 m
Talgo 350 (S-102 y S-112): 2 M 12 C 316/365 seats 8.000 kW (Bombardier) 330 km/h 200 m


----------



## 33Hz

> The short list of bidders for the first trains for the British High Speed 1 has already been published.


It's High Speed 2 (HS1 is celebrating its 10th birthday at the moment).


I very much doubt that a duplex will be proposed - as you say they have to run on the classic network.

Also, with Siemens and Alstom merging their transport divisions, is this not really a shortlist of 4?

I am surprised that a Chinese company wasn't on there to shake things up a bit. Also, CAF announced a UK factory but are not on the list. Did they bid?


----------



## AlexNL

The merger of Siemens and Alstom is still pending regulatory approval, when approval is given both companies will remain competitors. 

Even when approval is given it will take a lot of time to integrate the two companies and their product lines.


----------



## sotonsi

33Hz said:


> I very much doubt that a duplex will be proposed - as you say they have to run on the classic network.


Given the fuss about level boarding - both wrt dwell times and disabled access, I doubt captive trains will ever be double-deck even though they could.


----------



## Gusiluz

Until recently they were going to present the Oaris to the first phase of the HS2. 

El ‘Oaris’ de CAF entra en el punto de mira inglés para la línea de alta velocidad Londres-Birmingham. 


> The Secretary of State for Transport of the United Kingdom, Robert Goodwill, has taken advantage of his visit this week to Spain to "know first-hand" a unit of Oaris', of which Norway has already bought 8 units.


And they have their own active tilting system, the SIBI.
And even factory in the United Kingdom.


----------



## metrogogo

A selection of photos of the enabling and archaeological works taking place around Curzon Street Birmingham.


HS2 Curzon St Birmingham by metrogogo, on Flickr


HS2 Curzon St Birmingham by metrogogo, on Flickr


HS2 Curzon St Birmingham by metrogogo, on Flickr


HS2 Curzon St Birmingham by metrogogo, on Flickr


HS2 Curzon St Birmingham by metrogogo, on Flickr


HS2 Curzon St Birmingham by metrogogo, on Flickr


HS2 Curzon St Birmingham by metrogogo, on Flickr


HS2 Curzon St Birmingham by metrogogo, on Flickr

An overview of the site.


HS2 Curzon St Archaeological Investigation by metrogogo, on Flickr


----------



## PortoNuts

*HS2 reveals 3.4km Colne Valley viaduct design*

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2018/01/19/hs2-reveals-3-4km-colne-valley-viaduct-design/



> *Striking designs have been revealed for HS2’s longest viaduct in the Colne Valley near Denham in Buckinghamshire.*
> 
> *The 3.4km-long extended triple arch viaduct, designed by specialist architect Martin Knight, is set to be one of the high-speed link’s best-known structures.*
> 
> Bouygues, VolkerFitzpatrick and Sir Robert McAlpine, making up the Align JV, now have the task of developing the outline design and delivering the project within the expected cost.
> 
> Contract C1 is worth £965 m and involves a complex 22km stretch of railway including the new viaduct, embankments, through cuttings and the 15.8km long Chiltern Tunnel.


----------



## PortoNuts

*HS2 starts hunt for £1.9bn M&E and track works*

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2018/01/30/hs2-starts-hunt-for-1-9bn-me-contracts/



> *HS2 opens prequalification today for two major M&E works contracts along the route from London to Crewe. The two jobs cover track and overhead catenary system works, and tunnel and lineside M&E and ventilation works.*
> 
> The successful bidder for the £1.55bn OCS package will oversee HS2’s construction and its dynamic testing phase, linking the whole system and trains.
> 
> This includes essential infrastructure, including the overhead catenary ‘power’ system from which high speed trains will draw down power, and 180 miles of track along which they will travel at speeds of up to 225mph.
> 
> The second £330m contract package is for the tunnel and lineside M&E and ventilation works.
> 
> It covers the design, installation, testing and commissioning of HS2’ safety equipment including tunnel ventilation fans; lighting; handrails; fire safety equipment and tunnel alarm systems.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Yes, much smaller than CAF which, in turn, is much smaller than any of the others; and more with the process of concentration before the Chinese threat.

But Renfe has been working with Talgo for 75 years, knows how to maintain the trains and the technology they have.
If someone took a risk, it was Talgo, who adjusted his price a lot.


----------



## Sunfuns

CAF is in about a same size category as Stadler, I think. Unlike Talgo their products are common around Europe.


----------



## kokomo

If I may...

Historically CAf has focused more on urban transport than long distance (which was usually Talgo's turf).

Nevertheless, these past years Talgo has tried to move onto metropolitan rolling stock and CAF to high speed. 

Fierce competition ahead opcorn:


----------



## Gusiluz

*HS4Air*

Proposed line could connect HS1 and HS2 with London airports. IRJ today.


> London-based consultancy Expedition Engineering has released its designs for a €10bn, 140km high-speed line which would connect London’s Heathrow and Gatwick airports with the current HS1 line and the future HS2 line, bypassing London.
> ...
> The line would connect HS1 at Ashford to HS2 northwest of London via Gatwick and Heathrow airports with a spur connection to the Great Western Main Line. Approximately 40% of the route would use the current line between Tonbridge and Ashford. Around 20% of the line would run in three new tunnels to avoid impacting the environmentally-sensitive Surrey Hills Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, and to pass under built-up areas around Heathrow and Gatwick.
> 
> Lenczner says based on a speed of around 320km/h, HS4Air could reduce journey times:
> 
> Ashford to Gatwick: 25minutes (down from 1h 50min)
> Manchester to Heathrow: 1h 10min (from 3h 20min)
> Heathrow to Gatwick: 15 minutes
> Cardiff to Heathrow: 1h 40mins (from 2h 50mins), and
> Birmingham to Paris: 3 hours (from 3h 50min by air).
> The DfT says it will provide a response to the proposals in the autumn.


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^



> Approximately 40% of the route would use the current line between Tonbridge and Ashford.


Will this also be 320 km/h?


----------



## Negjana

Does the current section between Ashford and Tonbridge support 320 km/h?


----------



## geogregor

Negjana said:


> Does the current section between Ashford and Tonbridge support 320 km/h?


No.

It would have to be completely rebuild. It is a dead straight stretch so geometry wouldn't be a problem but all the bridges, viaducts, cuttings, embankments etc would have to be rebuild to allow for bigger gauge.

Anyway, this "project" is a non starter, I don't see anyone who would pay for it.


----------



## sotonsi

^^ and there's no space on HS2 or the GWML for trains to get past Heathrow.

It's a scheme founded on the idea that the issue with SE English Airports having too much demand for runway capacity can be fixed by increasing the demand by seeking to route more transfer passengers via SE England. :bash:

Thankfully, they can't get anymore stupid than that, and they do get some of the railway issues right (non-London/Coast access to Gatwick, Heathrow access from Surrey, Sussex and Kent), but - like the airport 'solution' - they chase coolness over usefulness. Local/regional links would be better than intercity/high speed: cheaper to build, more passengers using it. Beaconsfield not Birmingham, Chatham not Calais.


----------



## Sunfuns

In addition to all the other issues mentioned above I also don't that much demand. If you are already at Heathrow or Gatwick might as well fly to any middle distance destination. Local transport (within 200 km) is way more important.


----------



## TER200

M-NL said:


> The unit price is going through the roof because the trains are going to be built to UK loading gauge. Models using powercars will be at a serious disadvantage with regards to floor space.


However they will need to be significantly reduced in height compared to continental trains like the Velaro. This means reengineering work, and potentially using some floor space for technical elements. Meanwhile, producing unpowered cars for this loading gauge looks less challenging, as the Eurostar TMST sets show. 




Gusiluz said:


> ^^ It can be, I wrote the TGV du Futur is because it is the last to leave, we are also waiting to know if finally Alstom and Siemens present a single model as it seems to indicate the invitation to CAF.
> 
> Alstom presented two models to the tender of the series 106 in Spain, won by Talgo Avril G3, the Euroduplex and the AGV. Others say that Alstom will present a variant on the Avelia Liberty for the Northeast US Corridor: it is tilting and, without tilting, could reach 350 km/h in its American version.
> 
> So far there is nothing official.



The AGV has a lower floor than non-articulated trainsets, which could help reduing the loading gauge.


The Avelia Liberty/Horizon, meanwhile (similar power cars, singe or double deck trailers), is supposed to be 25% cheaper to buy and operate than a current Euroduplex.





It also seems likely now that Alstom and Siemens won't marge at all, so maybe there will be 4 competitors and even 5 train concepts...


----------



## geogregor

Contracts awarded for two London stations on the HS2 line:

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/mace-and-balfour-teams-land-hs2-stations



> *HS2 has today named the construction teams that will build the London terminus at Euston and the west London super-hub at Old Oak Common.*
> 
> The Euston contract is going to a joint venture of Mace and Dragados. The Old Oak Common station will be built by Balfour Beatty, Vinci and Systra.
> 
> HS2 said that the *Euston project was currently estimated at £1.3bn and Old Oak Common at just over £1bn.
> *
> Costain/Skanska and BAM Nuttall/Ferrovial Agroman were also shortlisted for Euston, while Mace/Dragados, Bechtel and BAM Nuttall/Ferrovial Agroman were the losing bidders for Old Oak Common.
> 
> Work is already under way on the high-speed rail project. In London, more than a thousand people are at work on site, clearing the way for the start of construction and delivering pre-construction works, including archaeological work.














> The new HS2 station at Old Oak Common (pictured above) has been designed by a team led by WSP and architect WilkinsonEyre. It will be built on the former Great Western railway depot.
> 
> *The six 450-metre HS2 platforms will be built in a 1km long underground box, with twin tunnels taking high speed trains east to the terminus at Euston and west to the outskirts of London.* Material excavated during work on the tunnels will be removed by rail from the nearby former Willesden Euroterminal depot.
> 
> HS2 is currently working to clear the site and prepare the ground (below) for the start of construction, later this year.
> 
> It is expected to help kick-start the UK’s largest regeneration project, which aims to transform the former railway and industrial area into a new neighbourhood with 25,500 new homes.
> 
> The underground high-speed platforms will be connected to the adjoining conventional station at ground level via a shared overbridge, providing connections between HS2 and Elizabeth line (Crossrail) trains, to Heathrow and central London. The station design also includes the potential for provision of future services to Wales and the west of England from Old Oak Common. A concourse will link both halves of the station with a roof inspired by the site’s industrial heritage.


Demolitions ongoing at Euston, land clearance ongoing at Old Oak Common. 

Londonist website update:
https://londonist.com/london/transport/inside-old-oak-common-london-s-next-big-transport-hub

Map for those unfamiliar where the hell Old Oak Common is:













> We recently took a tour of the site, to get a feel for the place before the changes bite. It's a land in flux: a whirl of excavators, dump trucks, surveyors and noise; half-deleted depots mingle with the ghosts of infrastructure yet to come.
> 
> Less poetically, Old Oak Common is a massive plot of *brownfield land the size of Hyde Park*. HS2 contractors are already on site, clearing old railway gubbins, cleaning the soil and getting ready for construction.
> 
> *The next stage will see the excavation of the station box. A vast canyon must be gouged through the landscape to accommodate the subterranean HS2 lines. We're talking a trench that stretches for a kilometre, and that reaches 60 metres wide and 20 m deep.* It will be one of the largest underground structures in the world, so we're told.


:cheers:


----------



## rogerfarnworth

Really interesting update. Thank you.


----------



## TER200

High Speed 2 rolling stock bids have been submitted today by Alstom, Bombardier / Hitachi, Talgo, CAF and Siemens.
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...ew/view/hs2-rolling-stock-bids-submitted.html

Alstom's bid involves no power car, however the only released image does not show if it has an articulated architecture (AGV type) or separate cars on 2 bogies each (like the Pendolino).


----------



## davide84

I was reading the previous page and I got puzzled: the new HS2 line will be built with UK gauge/gabarit, do I understand correctly? If so, why? Isn't it a completely new project?


----------



## TER200

davide84 said:


> I was reading the previous page and I got puzzled: the new HS2 line will be built with UK gauge/gabarit, do I understand correctly? If so, why? Isn't it a completely new project?


 It's built to a larger gauge, but large trains would be "captive" of the line.
It was once intended to split the rolling stock between "captive" and "classic compatible" trainsets (a bit like in Japan with the "mini-Shinkansen"), but this would result in higher rolling stock costs as the captive sets would only travel between London and Birmingham. Most trains will need to continue on legacy lines to destinations not directly connected to HS2 (Liverpool, Scotland...)

However I understand broader trains remain a possibility if, in the future, the high-speed network is enlarged and captive trains can travel to more destinations. Or if passenger trafic really needs double-deckers :cheers:.


----------



## Bobo90

wasn't it so they could make the captive trains with double decker trains to have more capacity for the 'classic' services


----------



## davide84

I understand the compromise on trains... at least the line will be broad gauge


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ They'll buy two kinds of trains:

The first series is 49 HST (plus 5 for maintenance and spare parts) compatible with the classic lines.
The second series will be 100 HST ("captive" trains) with GC gauge (UIC C1) by 2033 when the second phase of HS2 (Phase 2b) is completed to Manchester, Leeds and York.


----------



## Fatfield

HS2 delayed for up to 5 years due to costs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49563549


----------



## 33Hz

Not exactly just due to costs. I would say all the political hand-wringing doesn't help the schedule either.

There are also geotechnical reasons.



> One of the reasons for postponing the opening date is keeping costs down on embankment building, as the report explains.
> 
> “allowing additional time for ground settlement in preference to costly ground stabilisation prior to installation of high-precision concrete slab track” (pge 15).


https://paulbigland.blog/2019/09/03...nd-the-budgets-revised-but-nothings-been-cut/


----------



## Stuu

Suburbanist said:


> But for whatever reason, even before Brexit was even on radar, UK Border Agency was very reluctant to enter into agreements to field stations in other places.


Because apart from anything else, it's not very efficient use of resources. Say Eurostar or DB introduced trains from Cologne -how many trains would there be? 3-4 a day? So you would need to employ border staff for around 30 minutes for each service, maybe only 1.5-2 hours work per day.


----------



## zeeuwinthecity

Stuu said:


> Because apart from anything else, it's not very efficient use of resources. Say Eurostar or DB introduced trains from Cologne -how many trains would there be? 3-4 a day? So you would need to employ border staff for around 30 minutes for each service, maybe only 1.5-2 hours work per day.


How is this done in airports then? I assume not every airport in the world that has any flights to the UK has a UK border control post, that would be insane. I really don’t know enough about airports or border controls, but if that works for vehicles that fly in the air, why would it be impossible for vehicles that run on rails?


----------



## SSCreader

When you take a plane, international flights have border controls on each end, for the countries where you are.

Before Schengen, controls were done during the trip on international trains within Europe, but in this case you could pass through multiple countries in a journey. In night trains, you usually handled your passport to the train staff.

The current situation for Eurostar and the channel tunnel will probably change once the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland stops following the rules for freedom of movement in the European Union.


----------



## RyukyuRhymer

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51512831

*HS2: UK in talks with China over construction of high-speed line*



> The UK and China have held "preliminary discussions" over giving Beijing's state-owned railway firm a role in building the HS2 high-speed rail line.
> 
> However, government officials said no "concrete commitments" had been made.
> 
> China's state railway company said it could build the line in just five years and at a much lower cost, according to a letter seen by Building magazine.
> 
> But Conservative MP Tom Tugendhat warned letting CRCC build HS2 would be "extremely questionable".
> 
> It comes after Boris Johnson this week approved the controversial HS2 scheme.
> 
> This was despite an official review warning costs could reach over £100bn, against a budget of £62bn.Under current plans, the final stretch of the line is not due to be completed until 2040 - although Mr Johnson has said he wants that brought forward to 2035.
> 
> However, Building magazine reported that the China Railway Construction Corporation (CRCC) had written to HS2 Ltd's chief executive last month, saying it could build the line by the middle of the decade, for a much reduced price tag.
> 
> Any move to give Beijing a further role in the UK's infrastructure would almost certainly prove controversial, after Mr Johnson reportedly incurred the wrath of US President Donald Trump - as well as upsetting many Tory MPs - with his decision to allow tech giant Huawei to supply equipment for the 5G mobile network.
> 
> However, British officials are said to be sceptical that it could operate in the same way in a democracy with property rights, protected landscapes and powerful lobbying groups.


----------



## Stuu

zeeuwinthecity said:


> How is this done in airports then? I assume not every airport in the world that has any flights to the UK has a UK border control post, that would be insane. I really don’t know enough about airports or border controls, but if that works for vehicles that fly in the air, why would it be impossible for vehicles that run on rails?


It's down to the UK government's insistence that passengers are checked _before _they get on the train. From memory it's because you can put people straight back on a return flight if you don't allow them entry, but by train they are already considered to have entered the country if they have travelled through it to their destination, and can't be so easily deported


----------



## urbanflight

RyukyuRhymer said:


> https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51512831
> 
> *HS2: UK in talks with China over construction of high-speed line*


First, the Boris Johnson government allows China's Huawei to infiltrate the UK telecom infrastructure thought the 5G, now they will finance the Chinese regimen through the HS2. This is disgusting :bash:


----------



## Brum X

Hs2 Curzon Street station will transform the Eastside area of the city centre of Birmingham.


----------



## foxmulder

urbanflight said:


> First, the Boris Johnson government allows China's Huawei to infiltrate the UK telecom infrastructure thought the 5G, now they will finance the Chinese regimen through the HS2. This is disgusting :bash:


China to rescue!!!

China will built this under budget and on time. If you want high speed railroads look no further.


----------



## Svartmetall

No thank you. I'd rather have North Korea constructing our railways than China.

If we are to have a foreign country build our railroads, I'll take the French, Spanish or Japanese over China any day.


----------



## foxmulder

Svartmetall said:


> No thank you. I'd rather have North Korea constructing our railways than China.
> 
> If we are to have a foreign country build our railroads, I'll take the French, Spanish or Japanese over China any day.


Sure, go ahead and pay more. much more. and wait longer. much longer :cheers:

No one has Chinese know/how and equipment when it comes to high speed rail thanks to intense construction effort of the last decade. Stats prove this. I think one needs to have ulterior motives not to see it.


----------



## urbanflight

foxmulder said:


> China to rescue!!!
> 
> China will built this under budget and on time. If you want high speed railroads look no further.


uke:



foxmulder said:


> Sure, go ahead and pay more. much more. and wait longer. much longer :cheers:
> 
> No one has Chinese know/how and equipment when it comes to high speed rail thanks to intense construction effort of the last decade. Stats prove this. I think one needs to have ulterior motives not to see it.


False.


----------



## M-NL

RyukyuRhymer said:


> *HS2: UK in talks with China over construction of high-speed line*


For what reason? I have no doubts that China could build a HSL in the UK, but check the budgets where the money actually goes and you'll likely see it is not the actual construction, but legal, management and land acquisition. I highly doubt a Chinese built HSL will be cheaper.
Or is it just because Boris does not want a mainland European company to construct the line, because of Brexit?


----------



## davide84

foxmulder said:


> No one has Chinese know/how and equipment when it comes to high speed rail


No one except maybe France, Italy, Spain or Japan, just to name a few. Russia and Germany could be added to the list, their companies are also internationally active.

Chinese companies are becoming very active in Europe and so far they are usually delivering on-time and on-budget, e.g. the new Croatian bridge bypassing Bosnia, but it's totally nonsense to say that good rail or bridge or road building technology is available only from China.

Also note that construction times are often dominated not by technology but by processes like land acquisition, local opposition, court appeals, change of mind of politicians, commissioning paperwork and involvement of the governments. The know-how of the workers and of the companies have little influence on all these aspects.


----------



## geogregor

davide84 said:


> No one except maybe France, Italy, Spain or Japan, just to name a few. Russia and Germany could be added to the list, their companies are also internationally active.
> 
> Chinese companies are becoming very active in Europe and *so far they are usually delivering on-time and on-budget*, e.g. the new Croatian bridge bypassing Bosnia, but it's totally nonsense to say that good rail or bridge or road building technology is available only from China.
> 
> Also note that construction times are often dominated not by technology but by processes like land acquisition, local opposition, court appeals, change of mind of politicians, commissioning paperwork and involvement of the governments. The know-how of the workers and of the companies have little influence on all these aspects.



Agree with most of your post.

But in regards of experience of Chinese companies in Europe, it is rather mixed so far. They failed in Poland when they tried to get involved with motorway construction couple of years ago, they had to be kicked out eventually.

The problem is what you highlighted. They struggled to get local subcontractors and deal with all sort of issues, legal, planning, quality control etc. 

Let's face it, nobody will allow them to ship-in thousands of their own builders to Britain and pay them according to the Chinese rates. They will still have to follow all the local processes and regulations.


----------



## Svartmetall

foxmulder said:


> Sure, go ahead and pay more. much more. and wait longer. much longer :cheers:
> 
> No one has Chinese know/how and equipment when it comes to high speed rail thanks to intense construction effort of the last decade. Stats prove this. I think one needs to have ulterior motives not to see it.


Better that than become another stooge for the CCP. The less we have to do with the CCP the better.

Plus, China is not the only country with this knowhow at all - there are HSR projects that are just as successful, though true the scale of the Chinese efforts is on another level, but that is Bourne out of necessity (massive population and area to cover) rather than some intrinsic superiority of the Chinese people like you imply.


----------



## Suburbanist

davide84 said:


> No one except maybe France, Italy, Spain or Japan, just to name a few. Russia and Germany could be added to the list, their companies are also internationally active.
> 
> Chinese companies are becoming very active in Europe a*nd so far they are usually delivering on-time and on-budge*t, e.g. the new Croatian bridge bypassing Bosnia, but it's totally nonsense to say that good rail or bridge or road building technology is available only from China.
> 
> Also note that construction times are often dominated not by technology but by processes like land acquisition, local opposition, court appeals, change of mind of politicians, commissioning paperwork and involvement of the governments. The know-how of the workers and of the companies have little influence on all these aspects.


There have been at least 3 road projects contracted out to Chinese firms that suffered significant setbacks in Norway. The first reaction of the companies was to blame Norwegian standards. In another bridge project, they complain their hands are 'tied' in terms of having to follow Norwegian work rules and on a third project substandard steel from a sister firm was delivered... and then have to be replaced.

European construction companies don't lack expertise to build anything, really. They can access capital as well, if need so. Issues revolve more around project management on the planning authority side, land expropriation, lawsuits that drag on and on, and political decisions during the project execution to make last-minute changes or modifications, always very costly in terms of timeline and money, to appease some local disgruntled constituency. 

I have little doubts some communities that are now saying "we don't need this railway" will be first on the list to demand some new now-unplanned station to give them easier access, and then whine that most trians are just passing through without stopping (like folks that use the Mediopadana station in Italy).


----------



## foxmulder

I don't want to offend anyone but I don't know how to describe "anyone but China" attitude anything but simple racism. 

Like it or not China is the leader when it comes to high speed rail construction. The experience Chinese engineers gain in manufacturing, project management and design in a single year is equal to (or probably more than) that of Japanese/French engineers gain in a decade. 

And since all the equipment/material produced in scale, it is simply cheaper. Cannot be beaten in price.

Of course, the land acquisition and where the route will pass depends on UK government. These aspects of the projects have nothing to do with who constructs the railroad.

but hey.. if you cannot bear the Chinese companies working and delivering cheaper and faster for your own good... what can I say..? :cheers::cheers:


----------



## DaeguDuke

I don’t think anyone is saying that Chinese engineers couldn’t design HS2, I think the point is that the UK government are only talking to them because Chinese projects come out cheaper. 

Could we also build HS2 if we slashed workers pay/rights/conditions, built using local steel made at high volume, and refused to compensate land owners along the route? Yes. Can Chinese engineers make that happen here? No.

The wage differences alone are massive - could we pay construction workers here to build HS2 for as little as £240 a month?

What is the cost to transport steel around China compared to shipping it here? Massive difference to doing so in China. Will UK business be able to supply equipment here at Chinese prices? Don’t we specifically have steel tariffs to support this as a key local industry?

It’s unrealistic to think that Chinese engineers could recreate the entire mining through to manufacturing and construction chains in the UK for the same price whilst conforming to UK/EU standards and regulations.

I’m sure there will be operational ways to reduce costs, plenty worth discussing, but I’d imagine that the design and management processes here should already be fairly robust.

TLDR: imported steel from China costs more than it does in China, we can’t pay UK workers £240 a month to keep down costs


----------



## Svartmetall

foxmulder said:


> I don't want to offend anyone but I don't know how to describe "anyone but China" attitude anything but simple racism.
> 
> Like it or not China is the leader when it comes to high speed rail construction. The experience Chinese engineers gain in manufacturing, project management and design in a single year is equal to (or probably more than) that of Japanese/French engineers gain in a decade.
> 
> And since all the equipment/material produced in scale, it is simply cheaper. Cannot be beaten in price.
> 
> Of course, the land acquisition and where the route will pass depends on UK government. These aspects of the projects have nothing to do with who constructs the railroad.
> 
> but hey.. if you cannot bear the Chinese companies working and delivering cheaper and faster for your own good... what can I say..? :cheers::cheers:


Yep I am so racist I married one.  Nice try but playing the racism card every time someone says they don't want the Chinese government run companies involved means you'll be saying that a lot.

You might want to be a bit more humble too. If it were not poaching technology from the Germans and Japanese through "technology transfer" and reverse engineering you would not be as far along you are.

Anyway, I will leave you to your Wenzhou crash. I would rather go with shinkansen technology for safety. You might design and build a lot, but number does not necessarily translate to quality, and given some of the "quality" I've witnessed in China I will go with other, more mature, tried and tested products.

Also you will not be importing your labour laws, workforce or your construction practices here. There is simply no guarantee you can extrapolate costs of the project in China to what you would face here.


----------



## foxmulder

Svartmetall said:


> Yep I am so racist I married one.  Nice try but playing the racism card every time someone says they don't want the Chinese government run companies involved means you'll be saying that a lot.
> 
> You might want to be a bit more humble too. If it were not poaching technology from the Germans and Japanese through "technology transfer" and reverse engineering you would not be as far along you are.
> 
> Anyway, I will leave you to your Wenzhou crash. I would rather go with shinkansen technology for safety. You might design and build a lot, but number does not necessarily translate to quality, and given some of the "quality" I've witnessed in China I will go with other, more mature, tried and tested products.
> 
> Also you will not be importing your labour laws, workforce or your construction practices here. There is simply no guarantee you can extrapolate costs of the project in China to what you would face here.


I will leave you with many many train crashes in Germany, Spain and all the countries you listed and picked over China. 

(I know, *now*, you singled out Japan because they didn't have one with high speed trains "in operation" so smart :lol China railroads are extremely safe. Safer than any "Western" country you want to name even Japan if you include slow trains. 

You also wrote you even prefer North Korea so obviously you have a special issue with Chinese companies. That is called, let's say, discrimination if we have to use a nicer word. Keep discriminating. That will be very good for you. :nuts:

By the way news flash, Chinese are building a nuclear power plant in UK. ! You should protest against that. Frankly, that would be 10x more logical than going against high speed railroad construction. lol. :cheers::cheers::cheers:


----------



## NCT

foxmulder said:


> *I don't want to offend anyone but I don't know how to describe "anyone but China" attitude anything but simple racism. *
> 
> Like it or not China is the leader when it comes to high speed rail construction. The experience Chinese engineers gain in manufacturing, project management and design in a single year is equal to (or probably more than) that of Japanese/French engineers gain in a decade.
> 
> And since all the equipment/material produced in scale, it is simply cheaper. Cannot be beaten in price.
> 
> Of course, the land acquisition and where the route will pass depends on UK government. These aspects of the projects have nothing to do with who constructs the railroad.
> 
> but hey.. if you cannot bear the Chinese companies working and delivering cheaper and faster for your own good... what can I say..? :cheers::cheers:


It really isn't.

It's not hard to deconstruct why infrastructure takes longer and are more expensive in the West than in China. I don't know what assumptions went into the claim they can build all of HS2 in 5 years and for a fraction of the cost.

The Hybrid Bill of HS2 Phase 1 is very prescriptive about what must be built and how it must be built. A lot of HS2 is on embankments, cuttings or green tunnels. These are harder and take longer to build than simply building the whole thing on viaducts like the Chinese do. A lot of Chinese HSL cost savings come from using the same over-engineered viaduct design for building things quickly and achieving the track stability required for HSR operation. This would simply not be acceptable for HS2 as it would contravene the Hybrid Bill. Changing the design would require extensive amendments to the Hybrid Bill which itself would take 5 years to go through Parliament.

The difficulties with a new railway are usually in the civil structures - not necessarily in terms of design but in terms of how it must fit in with the surroundings and cause minimal disruptions to its neighbours during construction. It means every location requires its own approach so the extent of repeatability is much reduced. The Chinese approach is much less sympathetic to the existing natural and socio-economic geography, and this approach simply would not be tolerated in the UK.

You mention nuclear power stations - the Chinese only have one design for one type of geology (I forget which one, call it granite for the sake of argument). China is big enough that you can find enough sites with the necessary engineering conditions especially with central planning muscles. 
In the west socio-economic conditions are the primary considerations and you then fit your engineering solution around that. When Chinese companies win overseas nuclear power plant contracts they need to employ local design firms.

What takes time isn't necessarily the construction, but the planning, design and consent that goes before. Phase 1 and 2a are (nearly) fully consented, but the passage of the Phase 2B Hybrid Bill still has some way to go (as well as further messing about over integration with Northern Powerhouse Rail). While there are good arguments about there needing to be more robust and more streamlined processes so politicians don't just delay things endlessly, the rounds of environmental assessments, consultations, design refinements, objection hearings and compensation negotiations are part of a framework of due processes and part of the West's democratic fabric that cannot be bypassed, and this is something a Chinese construction company would be completely powerless to change. 

The social demography in the West is such that there isn't an oversupply of cheap labour. I have no ideological opposition to bringing in teams of Chinese construction workers to start all sections (of Phase 1) at the same time, provided there is no reduction to the normal prevailing wage rate or diminution to employee rights and safety standards, and that Chinese labour come in not as a special case but enabled through visa laws that apply to all other equivalent sectors without discrimination, and that should there be Chinese involvement, it is through open tender that treats other (potential) suppliers equally. We saw in the Chinese thread that even propaganda photographs depicted workers not wearing overalls, hard hats or goggles, so forgive me for expressing scepticism over safety records of Chinese construction.

With all these taken into account you quickly realise most of the cost and time saving opportunities are no longer there.


----------



## Silly_Walks

foxmulder said:


> I don't want to offend anyone but I don't know how to describe "anyone but China" attitude anything but simple racism.


You make some very bold statements, and when people say "actually...", you cry racism. Classy.

I'm guessing anyone here would have no problem with a Taiwanese company doing the construction. The problem people have is not with Chinese, but with the Chinese Communist Party. And you know this. And yet you still cry racism. Such lack of class. Such loss of face.


----------



## foxmulder

Silly_Walks said:


> You make some very bold statements, and when people say "actually...", you cry racism. Classy.
> 
> I'm guessing anyone here would have no problem with a Taiwanese company doing the construction. The problem people have is not with Chinese, but with the Chinese Communist Party. And you know this. And yet you still cry racism. Such lack of class. Such loss of face.


haha. No mate, you guys bring CCP when your favorite company fails at competing based on technical merit or cost. For bunch of communists very good capitalists, I guess.  Any good thing that comes out of China is bad for people like you. I dont know how to explain this but racism. 

Let's be real if the "human rights" is the real concern ,UK should not do any business with bunch of countries which is currently more than happy to do business with. If China had election just to please people like you, the result will be a very nationalistic/right wing leader at the power exactly like in Taiwan or Brazil or UK or Japan. I am not sure you would be happier with a leader like that either  haha. Be careful what you wished for. 

Since this Huawei episode, an anti china hysteria is boiling up and up and turning in more and more amusing. Even the possibility of a Chinese company building a high speed rail line turning into soul searching. lol. 

Just stop doing any business with China and be happy. :cheers:


----------



## geogregor

foxmulder said:


> By the way news flash, Chinese are building a nuclear power plant in UK. !


Actually... they don't. 

China co-finance Hinkley Point C but technology is French and contractors are mostly British and European.

Here you have the list of contractors as you seem to be missing some facts:
http://www.a2opeople.co.uk/blogitem/contractors-working-on-the-hinkley-point-c-nuclear-project 

Anyway, HS2 tendering process for the phase 1 is quite advanced and there is no sign of Chinese contractors anywhere. 

NTC explained quite comprehensively why the whole talk of "Chinese building quick and cheap" is just bollocks. Not in western countries where certain rules and regulations differ from the Chinese ones and have to be obeyed.


----------



## foxmulder

NCT said:


> It really isn't.
> 
> It's not hard to deconstruct why infrastructure takes longer and are more expensive in the West than in China. I don't know what assumptions went into the claim they can build all of HS2 in 5 years and for a fraction of the cost.
> 
> The Hybrid Bill of HS2 Phase 1 is very prescriptive about what must be built and how it must be built. A lot of HS2 is on embankments, cuttings or green tunnels. These are harder and take longer to build than simply building the whole thing on viaducts like the Chinese do. A lot of Chinese HSL cost savings come from using the same over-engineered viaduct design for building things quickly and achieving the track stability required for HSR operation. This would simply not be acceptable for HS2 as it would contravene the Hybrid Bill. Changing the design would require extensive amendments to the Hybrid Bill which itself would take 5 years to go through Parliament.
> 
> The difficulties with a new railway are usually in the civil structures - not necessarily in terms of design but in terms of how it must fit in with the surroundings and cause minimal disruptions to its neighbours during construction. It means every location requires its own approach so the extent of repeatability is much reduced. The Chinese approach is much less sympathetic to the existing natural and socio-economic geography, and this approach simply would not be tolerated in the UK.
> 
> You mention nuclear power stations - the Chinese only have one design for one type of geology (I forget which one, call it granite for the sake of argument). China is big enough that you can find enough sites with the necessary engineering conditions especially with central planning muscles.
> In the west socio-economic conditions are the primary considerations and you then fit your engineering solution around that. When Chinese companies win overseas nuclear power plant contracts they need to employ local design firms.
> 
> What takes time isn't necessarily the construction, but the planning, design and consent that goes before. Phase 1 and 2a are (nearly) fully consented, but the passage of the Phase 2B Hybrid Bill still has some way to go (as well as further messing about over integration with Northern Powerhouse Rail). While there are good arguments about there needing to be more robust and more streamlined processes so politicians don't just delay things endlessly, the rounds of environmental assessments, consultations, design refinements, objection hearings and compensation negotiations are part of a framework of due processes and part of the West's democratic fabric that cannot be bypassed, and this is something a Chinese construction company would be completely powerless to change.
> 
> The social demography in the West is such that there isn't an oversupply of cheap labour. I have no ideological opposition to bringing in teams of Chinese construction workers to start all sections (of Phase 1) at the same time, provided there is no reduction to the normal prevailing wage rate or diminution to employee rights and safety standards, and that Chinese labour come in not as a special case but enabled through visa laws that apply to all other equivalent sectors without discrimination, and that should there be Chinese involvement, it is through open tender that treats other (potential) suppliers equally. We saw in the Chinese thread that even propaganda photographs depicted workers not wearing overalls, hard hats or goggles, so forgive me for expressing scepticism over safety records of Chinese construction.
> 
> With all these taken into account you quickly realise most of the cost and time saving opportunities are no longer there.



So, all the Chinese high speed rail advances is thanks to labor abuse and not thinking of environment. If you say so... This, my online friend, depicts the extreme negative perception you have on China. 

The whole high speed rail network in China is the best thing that could have been done for people, environment and socioeconomic development. There is literally not a bad thing about it. Building on viaducts is safer for everyone around, uses less land and looks beautiful to me too. I am sorry but you sounded like people who are against wind turbines because they look ugly.. ok. 

I guess you are from UK. I would like see your reaction when someone says "any country but UK can do business in my country", in the future.


----------



## Dale

Still, the question begs, why is it going to take a decade (or more) to build the short link between London and Brum ?


----------



## hkskyline

From a technical perspective, the Chinese are the largest builders of high-speed rail in the world, with thousands of km of new lines to prove their capability, much moreso than any UK railroad company. Safety has not been a concern so far with 1 crash. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/salvat...nese-new-year-massive-migration/#19ef11da423f

If the UK government wants to slash costs, then they have to give up on some things. I would expect British workers to participate far less to save labour costs. But is the railroad builder responsible for expropriation? I thought that would be a government responsibility and should be the major bottleneck on the timeline (and perhaps cost-wise too). The builder would only build the railroad - no surprise there, right?


----------



## davide84

foxmulder said:


> the result will be a very nationalistic/right wing leader at the power exactly like in Taiwan or Brazil or UK or Japan


Or Turkey, or Hungary etc. But that's not the point 



foxmulder said:


> So, all the Chinese high speed rail advances is thanks to labor abuse and not thinking of environment


No. Chinese High Speed is not being questioned here.
What we're saying is that geography, laws and labor market are very different between China and UK, and you can't expect China-like timetables and costs in UK.


----------



## geogregor

Dale said:


> Still, the question begs, why is it going to take a decade (or more) to build the short link between London and Brum ?


French high speed line between Tours and Bordeaux took about 5 year to build. It is longer (302 km as oppose to 225 km in the UK) but there wasn't really any tunneling to be done and the line runs mostly through sparsely populated and gently undulating rural landscapes. Also, there we no major railway stations constructed as a part of that project. 

The line in the UK involves extensive tunneling (about 46 km of tunnels as far as I remember) as well as major rail stations build in dense urban environment (in London and in Birmingham). 

Fitting those long tunnels will be especially complex job as they will require, for example, all the relevant fire safety systems which open line simply doesn't need. Rebuilding Euston Station will also be extremely complex job.

Could it be done faster? Possible a bit, but not by much. Anyway, I rather prefer they have realistic timetable than get too ambitious and try to stick to impossible deadlines. This would only make things worse (as anyone following the Crossrail saga will know).


----------



## dyonisien

hkskyline said:


> [...] Safety has not been a concern so far with 1 crash.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/salvat...nese-new-year-massive-migration/#19ef11da423f[...]


Must we repeat again and again that the dramatic accident has nothing to do with "high speed". The same faults would have had the same consequences on the historical network : during a strong thunderstorm the signaling system came to a halt and with it the trains came to a halt, which is the logical response. Then human beings intervened and the order was given to a train driver to proceed without signals. The result is known the moving (faster than at cautious speed!) train collided with the previous trains on a viaduct.
While the speed by no means was "high speed" it was far too fast for the situation.

The political decisions at that time in China about high speed were more for for the public opinion than for safety itself : the causes of the accident were faulty procedures dangerous on any network, not the high speed one. 
A dispatcher pressing a driver to proceed, just to minimize delays is alas observed on other continents, sometimes with hard consequences.

When we consider the amount of train·km or passenger·km achieved by the Chinese railways it is difficult to pretend that "safety has not been a concern".

By the way I would not consider railway knowledge at Forbes as reliable.
When giving a number of casualties you should always compare with the rest of the world, for instance in the country of Forbes, with far lower passenger·km


----------



## Svartmetall

geogregor said:


> French high speed line between Tours and Bordeaux took about 5 year to build. It is longer (302 km as oppose to 225 km in the UK) but there wasn't really any tunneling to be done and the line runs mostly through sparsely populated and gently undulating rural landscapes. Also, there we no major railway stations constructed as a part of that project.
> 
> The line in the UK involves extensive tunneling (about 46 km of tunnels as far as I remember) as well as major rail stations build in dense urban environment (in London and in Birmingham).
> 
> Fitting those long tunnels will be especially complex job as they will require, for example, all the relevant fire safety systems which open line simply doesn't need. Rebuilding Euston Station will also be extremely complex job.
> 
> Could it be done faster? Possible a bit, but not by much. Anyway, I rather prefer they have realistic timetable than get too ambitious and try to stick to impossible deadlines. This would only make things worse (as anyone following the Crossrail saga will know).


Given the extensive tunelling and the use of existing stations, Japan would be a better option as their network does just that. It is far more in keeping with the way the UK builds than even the French method and most certainly the Chinese (monumental stations built miles out of the city in many cases).


----------



## DaeguDuke

dyonisien said:


> during a strong thunderstorm the signaling system came to a halt and with it the trains came to a halt



We’re in the middle of our second strong storm in two weeks. Clearly substandard signalling wouldn’t last very long here.


----------



## 33Hz

Stuu said:


> Do you mean going to Leeds via Manchester? If so it's because going that way would take as long to get to Leeds as it does right now.


The HS2 time from London to Manchester is 67 minutes. The NPR time from Manchester to Leeds is 25 minutes. So that's 1h32m vs the current London to Leeds journey time of 2h15m.



Regarding all the speculation of China building HS2, the government denies it. Sounds like typical media stirring as this story has done the rounds at least twice before: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51521965


----------



## moon993

So much misplaced nationalism in the past few pages


----------



## Gusiluz

*HS2 trains*

Yes. For changing the subject of the conversation...

We will see if Alstom's purchase of Bombardier Transport interferes with the award of the trains for HS2. 

At first CAF was left out of the short list but -after Alstom and Siemens' merger attempt, and Hitachi's problems to present its AT400- the HS2 company admitted Oaris, so the candidates (today) are:

*Alstom Avelia*


*Hitachi-Bombardier*


Hitachi AT400 that didn't show up, I guess because it wasn't elaborated enough



*CAF Oaris*


Although with a restyling:


*Siemens Velaro Novo*


*Talgo Avril G4*
 

This rendering is older:


----------



## NCT

foxmulder said:


> So, all the Chinese high speed rail advances is thanks to labor abuse and not thinking of environment. If you say so... This, my online friend, depicts the extreme negative perception you have on China.
> 
> The whole high speed rail network in China is the best thing that could have been done for people, environment and socioeconomic development. There is literally not a bad thing about it. Building on viaducts is safer for everyone around, uses less land and looks beautiful to me too. I am sorry but you sounded like people who are against wind turbines because they look ugly.. ok.
> 
> I guess you are from UK. I would like see your reaction when someone says "any country but UK can do business in my country", in the future.


Nobody said abuse and not thinking. The circumstances are simply different.

Labour is a major element of the overall project cost, and the general wage level for construction workers in China is much lower than the West. This is a verifiable fact. (You can read this article to understand some of the industrial relation shenanigans in China HSL building) Standard Chinese construction worker wages are well below UK minimum wage.

The design requirements for HS2 Phase 1 are already written into the Hybrid Bill - the law, and they preclude much of viaduct-based cost savings. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion that there's not a single thing wrong with Chinese HSR, but that is just your personal opinion. What the British authorities and people choose to prioritise in their design and environmental mitigation is their prerogative.

So let me get this straight - until the UK abolishes the minimum wage and everyone agrees to your personal opinion, they must all be racist against the Chinese?


----------



## Stuu

33Hz said:


> The HS2 time from London to Manchester is 67 minutes. The NPR time from Manchester to Leeds is 25 minutes. So that's 1h32m vs the current London to Leeds journey time of 2h15m.


The NPR time is unknown, but 30 minutes is an aspiration. Also you can't just add the two times together, there would need to be at least 3 minutes dwell time in Manchester, so that gives at best 1h40. The best time today is 1h58


----------



## DaeguDuke

NCT said:


> Nobody said abuse and not thinking. The circumstances are simply different.



Failure to pay minimum wage would be an abuse of labour law. There is zero chance of a UK project matching the labour costs of a project in China, it would be illegal. Working conditions too would fall foul of the law. Nobody said abuse, but it would be considered that here.

The chances of importing steel from China without paying higher costs due to shipping, taxes etc are also zero.

So where are the cost savings coming from? If not steel, or labour?


----------



## Stuu

foxmulder said:


> There is literally not a bad thing about it. Building on viaducts is safer for everyone around, uses less land and looks beautiful to me too. I am sorry but you sounded like people who are against wind turbines because they look ugly.. ok.


Building on viaducts like China and Japan do would simply not be acceptable in most European countries - it's a simple matter of aesthetics being considered more important than basic economics. A basic cultural difference in what people are prepared to put up with, and yes, some of it is entirely irrational. 

It will be interesting to see how big a problem the maintenance of all those viaducts is in 40 or 50 years time as well, and I don't mean that they have been built badly, just that reinforced concrete structures don't always last as well as expected


----------



## hkskyline

So if this railway is not built on viaducts but at-grade, wouldn't it pose significant security risk with sabotage and foreign objects that can be easily thrown onto the tracks? Wouldn't it also divide up communities, land plots, and create all sorts of railway crossing barriers? I would imagine the communities en route would erupt over a dividing rail line cutting up their town in 2.


----------



## NCT

hkskyline said:


> So if this railway is not built on viaducts *but at-grade*, wouldn't it pose significant security risk with sabotage and foreign objects that can be easily thrown onto the tracks? Wouldn't it also divide up communities, land plots, and create all sorts of railway crossing barriers? I would imagine the communities en route would erupt over a dividing rail line cutting up their town in 2.


It won't be strictly at grade. What's not in tunnels or viaducts will mostly be either on an embankment or in a cutting.

When the railway meets a road, if it's on an embankment it just crosses the road as an underbridge (with a bit of road lowering), if the railway is in a cutting the road goes over as an overbridge without needing massive ramps either side.

Also the whole point of HS2 is that it hardly goes through built up areas, other than the ends / ends of spurs which go into city centres in tunnels.


----------



## dysharmonica

It's so weird that we're discussing HS2 like it's something weird and new ... It's a HSR of the European variety which is well established from France, Italy and Spain. It will work. It will use viaducts where appropiate, will be at grade where apropriate, and may even (gasp!) go into a tunnel where appropriate; it will have no level crossings (of course it won't). It will be fast and it will significatly relieve capacity issues on the current line. It will work it is worth the cost (Tho UK could get a better hold of its project cost projections). 

The end.


----------



## Stuu

hkskyline said:


> So if this railway is not built on viaducts but at-grade, wouldn't it pose significant security risk with sabotage and foreign objects that can be easily thrown onto the tracks? Wouldn't it also divide up communities, land plots, and create all sorts of railway crossing barriers? I would imagine the communities en route would erupt over a dividing rail line cutting up their town in 2.


That's a theoretical problem, there are places in cities where metal screens have been placed either over the top of bridges or over the tracks next to bridges where this could be a problem. Hs2 and other European high speed lines are generally designed to avoid towns and cities by diverting around them, or using tunnels where it is unavoidable. Dividing farmland is an issue so bridges are built to mitigate that


----------



## 33Hz

Stuu said:


> The NPR time is unknown, but 30 minutes is an aspiration. Also you can't just add the two times together, there would need to be at least 3 minutes dwell time in Manchester, so that gives at best 1h40. The best time today is 1h58


https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/TFTN_-_NPR_At_a_Glance.pdf

Page 6: 25 minutes.


----------



## Stuu

33Hz said:


> https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/TFTN_-_NPR_At_a_Glance.pdf
> 
> Page 6: 25 minutes.


It's got quite a big caveat. Nothing has been decided yet so the time is really unknown, and even at 25 minutes it's still a lot slower than via the planned eastern branch


----------



## Jonesy55

lechevallierpatrick said:


> Will the trains from Birmingham (and Manchester,Leeds etc...) be able to go further past London to Paris (Brussels,Amsterdam etc...)?I also think that the southern terminus of HS2 will be at Euston and not St.Pancras.Will HS2 and HS1 be connected in order to allow through services between the West Midlands and continental Europe?...Thank you...





Stuu said:


> No, apart from the important fact there aren't any tracks, there also isn't enough demand. If the UK were sensible, trains could run from Birmingham to London and then on to Paris, so carrying Birmingham-London, Birmingham-Paris and London-Paris passengers. But that isn't possible, entirely because of politics





Suburbanist said:


> I think French customs would accept to field two more border stations within UK in Birmingham and Manchester, if UK Border Agency agreed to deploy their own staff at two more French locations, or maybe one French and one German location (Frankfurt).
> 
> But for whatever reason, even before Brexit was even on radar, UK Border Agency was very reluctant to enter into agreements to field stations in other places.
> 
> Connecting HS1 with HS2 should be a no-brainer. Manchester - Paris in 4h30 with a stop in Ashford or Ebbsfleet would still be rather attractive vs. planes.
> 
> Having HS1 and HS2 arrive at two different stations in London, however, is an unforgivable planning mistake comparable to the French short-sightdeness of not concentrating all Paris TGVs in a single terminal.


I'd like to see something like this explored, trains from North of London could branch off the HS2 route somewhere in Buckinghamshire, then bypass central London with a route going to Ashford International via stations at Heathrow and Gatwick. 



Connecting with the two largest UK airports would be a big boost for domestic demand and would relieve pressure on Central London in addition to providing direct connectivity to Paris and Brussels from the Midlands and North of England. It would also open up Heathrow and Gatwick as more practical long haul airports for people in Belgium and Northern France.


----------



## pr1berske

foxmulder said:


> So, all the Chinese high speed rail advances is thanks to labor abuse and not thinking of environment. If you say so... This, my online friend, depicts the extreme negative perception you have on China.
> 
> The whole high speed rail network in China is the best thing that could have been done for people, environment and socioeconomic development. There is literally not a bad thing about it. Building on viaducts is safer for everyone around, uses less land and looks beautiful to me too. I am sorry but you sounded like people who are against wind turbines because they look ugly.. ok.
> 
> I guess you are from UK. I would like see your reaction when someone says "any country but UK can do business in my country", in the future.


I mean, you are reaching very hard here and it isn't working. 

China has dubious records on or with:

*Personal liberty
*Personal freedom and expression
*Human rights
*Workers rights
*Government control
*Health and safety

The idea that Chinese companies should come over here to build HS2 in 5 years rather than 20 on solely their terms is fanciful. It is not racist to suggest that China's record on the rule of law is questionable. Nor is it racist to suggest that China's process on building infrastructure isn't somewhat slapdash.


----------



## pr1berske

dysharmonica said:


> It's so weird that we're discussing HS2 like it's something weird and new ... It's a HSR of the European variety which is well established from France, Italy and Spain. It will work. It will use viaducts where appropiate, will be at grade where apropriate, and may even (gasp!) go into a tunnel where appropriate; it will have no level crossings (of course it won't). It will be fast and it will significatly relieve capacity issues on the current line. It will work it is worth the cost (Tho UK could get a better hold of its project cost projections).
> 
> The end.



It won't work, but there are other threads for general discussion about how this £100bn white elephant is going to destroy everything in its path.


----------



## Stuu

pr1berske said:


> It won't work, but there are other threads for general discussion about how this £100bn white elephant is going to destroy everything in its path.


A White Elephant is something that is built but is useless/underused. Do you honestly think that a railway directly serving the three biggest cities in the UK will be empty?


----------



## pr1berske

Stuu said:


> A White Elephant is something that is built but is useless/underused. Do you honestly think that a railway directly serving the three biggest cities in the UK will be empty?


I believe it will be underused. Too expensive for ordinary people. It's only there for Londoners.


----------



## Stuu

pr1berske said:


> I believe it will be underused. Too expensive for ordinary people. It's only there for Londoners.


How can you possibly come to that conclusion? Is the WCML only for Londoners as well?

It will at least double the capacity between London, Birmingham and Manchester, and will have much lower running costs. Why would tickets be expensive?


----------



## pr1berske

Stuu said:


> How can you possibly come to that conclusion? Is the WCML only for Londoners as well?
> 
> It will at least double the capacity between London, Birmingham and Manchester, and will have much lower running costs. Why would tickets be expensive?



To repay £100bn tickets will have to be sky high. One rule for those who can afford it, one rule for those of us restricted to the run down WCML.


----------



## geogregor

pr1berske said:


> To repay £100bn tickets will have to be sky high. One rule for those who can afford it, one rule for those of us restricted to the run down WCML.


You clearly have no clue what you are writing about...hno:

Benefit of any investment is not calculated by simply measuring direct income one can get from given asset. Otherwise no toll-free road would ever get build...


----------



## DaeguDuke

You know that’s not how the rail system works, right? Do WMCL ticket prices go up when there is maintenance on the line? Do they go up when stations are repaired and upgraded?

The ticket prices aren’t to repay construction costs or future maintenance - that comes out of general taxation.

The legislation states the tickets must cost the same as current tickets on the same route, as pointed out above the new line will have lower operating costs for the operator. The aim is for the HS services to be set at current price and force the slower services to become cheaper.


----------



## Stuu

pr1berske said:


> To repay £100bn tickets will have to be sky high. One rule for those who can afford it, one rule for those of us restricted to the run down WCML.


a) Government expenditure doesn't work like that
b) The best way to get a return on the investment is to try to ensure every seat is full, all the time. This will not be possible with sky high prices.
c) As a back of *** packet sum, to repay £100bn borrowed at today's gilt prices, and assuming Hs2's figure of 100m journeys per year is correct, it works out at £22 per journey.


----------



## Justme

pr1berske said:


> It won't work, but there are other threads for general discussion about how this £100bn white elephant is going to destroy everything in its path.





pr1berske said:


> I believe it will be underused. Too expensive for ordinary people. It's only there for Londoners.





pr1berske said:


> To repay £100bn tickets will have to be sky high. One rule for those who can afford it, one rule for those of us restricted to the run down WCML.


Hmmm, I don't know where you got your info, but here is my recommendation. Watch this video, it is from a rail expert who answers each of your points and puts them into context. It explains why it won't be a white elephant and the relevant costs and all the benefits.

I strongly believe that we should get our information from experts. This chap is an expert. He gives his job title and he talks about his experience. He is not just a random person from the Internet or a politician with a political agenda:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf5avCUNP0M


----------



## foxmulder

NCT said:


> Nobody said abuse and not thinking. The circumstances are simply different.
> 
> Labour is a major element of the overall project cost, and the general wage level for construction workers in China is much lower than the West. This is a verifiable fact. (You can read this article to understand some of the industrial relation shenanigans in China HSL building) Standard Chinese construction worker wages are well below UK minimum wage.
> 
> The design requirements for HS2 Phase 1 are already written into the Hybrid Bill - the law, and they preclude much of viaduct-based cost savings. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion that there's not a single thing wrong with Chinese HSR, but that is just your personal opinion. What the British authorities and people choose to prioritise in their design and environmental mitigation is their prerogative.
> 
> So let me get this straight - until the UK abolishes the minimum wage and everyone agrees to your personal opinion, they must all be racist against the Chinese?


Yes that is exactly what I said. :nuts:

1) What is racist is telling "Everyone but companies from China can built this railroad". If you didn't say it don't bother responding it. 

2) Reasons for the lower cost of high speed rail in China is muuuuch beyond than only lower cost of labor and "lack of care for environment or human life". Again, viaducts are better for the both safety and they have less foot print. This is not my personal opinion. These are facts. UK project differs? good! Viaducts are more expensive anyway. 

3) It is also very noteworthy that Chinese high speed railways is also higher standards than the Western and Japanese counterparts with min 7000m turn radius and very heavy utilization of viaducts, tunnels (larger diameter than usual), ballastless tracks and airport like stations. So, they "should" have cost much less with "UK standards" 

4) Moreover, many many more workers work on Chinese high speed rail projects to complete them in shorter times. For example, **130,000** construction workers and engineers were at work at the peak of the construction phase of Beijing-Shanghai line! I wonder how many is working on UK project.?? So individual labor wage is lower but *total labor cost* I am not sure at all. 

Overall, Chinese HSR is a better product with lower cost just like Huawei 5G . 

Main reasons for the lower cost in China is:

a) standardization of the design and manufacturing process for casting and laying bridge beams on viaducts. (no viaducts makes things even cheaper)

b) the scale of the network which encouraged all the suppliers to invest in capacity and innovative techniques to decrease the unit cost. (e.g. ballestless tracks in China cost only 1/3 of those in Germany)

c) high cost construction equipment like beam launching equipment is used in multiple projects. 

Some of these certainly can be applicable to UK project. :cheers:


----------



## foxmulder

pr1berske said:


> I mean, you are reaching very hard here and it isn't working.
> 
> China has dubious records on or with:
> 
> *Personal liberty
> *Personal freedom and expression
> *Human rights
> *Workers rights
> *Government control
> *Health and safety
> 
> The idea that Chinese companies should come over here to build HS2 in 5 years rather than 20 on solely their terms is fanciful. It is not racist to suggest that China's record on the rule of law is questionable. Nor is it racist to suggest that China's process on building infrastructure isn't somewhat slapdash.



Yeah... this is slapdash comi train roads built on skeletons:










:cheers:


----------



## pr1berske

foxmulder said:


> Yeah... this is slapdash comi train roads built on skeletons:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :cheers:


You've proved our points. 

Thankfully, British planning regulations ensure that such a grotesquely OTT viaduct would never be allowed. 

What you've posted isn't British : that's an insult to the countryside, the planning rules, the needs of people to live without eyesores, the right of people to object to construction projects, and so on and so on. 

China is no friend of British rules, laws, and convention. And your photo shows that.


----------



## Castor_Game

^^^^

I wonder if among the British rules it is also not to return what has been stolen, for example the friezes, metopes and pediments of the Parthenon of Athens.

Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with the railroad, but when I read such ... simplistic things about British sensibility, I can't help laughing.

Returning to the railroad, this must be an insult to the seas of Sweden and Denmark ...

Denmark - Dragor - Oresund Bridge by Marcial Bernabeu, en Flickr

And this an insult to the Spaniards, it would be better that instead of taking seconds to cross that space ... it took 15 minutes

Avant Galicia_15 by Renfe Operadora, en Flickr


----------



## pr1berske

Do you believe that Spanish example suits the landscape?


----------



## dysharmonica

This Conversation has gone off the rails rather quick. 

A Chinese company building in the UK (following the UK rules and not just i=underreporting costs to also sell CHR trains, make policy good will etc) will build rail at nowhere near the low cost of what they can do in China. 

The reasons are multitude, but they do not just boil down to viaducts or IK incompetence. 

Anyways .. I am excited to see HS2 - about damn time. All it took was a short period of Tatcherism for the country to fall 50 years behind peers.

PS: RE: THe Oresund bridge. I'd like you to show me a surface-level sea crossing!


----------



## pr1berske

The Oresund bridge suits its surroundings and, of course, is the only solution to the problem it was designed to resolve. 

My issue about HS2 is that we're now, apparently, perfectly happy with the countryside being ruined forever by OTT constructions built below British standards just because it looks nice on a photograph. 

For a start, the one thing we can do better is scrapping HS2, not building a single inch, and forgetting the whole damn thing was ever suggested. 

We can do better. We're British.


----------



## TheMoses

^^Haha, exactly! Just like the Victorians used to say, "We're British so we don't even need to bother building it!"


----------



## TheMoses

...


----------



## Svartmetall

The argument "we're British, we can do better" is just as stupid as the "China is #1 due to our curve radii" (which is only possible due to topography and amount of land of course). Have you looked at the state of British infrastructure compared to most countries presently? We are well-below average. Due to a lack of investment the good infrastructure Base has been left to rot. It will take a long time and a lot of money/political will to rectify that.


----------



## dysharmonica

pr1berske said:


> The Oresund bridge suits its surroundings and, of course, is the only solution to the problem it was designed to resolve.
> 
> My issue about HS2 is that we're now, apparently, perfectly happy with the countryside being ruined forever by OTT constructions built below British standards just because it looks nice on a photograph.
> 
> For a start, the one thing we can do better is scrapping HS2, not building a single inch, and forgetting the whole damn thing was ever suggested.
> 
> We can do better. We're British.


Please tell me what is inferior about the HS2 plan compared to TGV, Renfe, AVE, DB, Danish HSR? There is no need to put everything on viaducts from my perspective. HS2 is planned to be capable of 360km/h which is world beating speed for steel rail - steel wheel rail. So what again is inferior? I am actually interested, because for now I see only that you simply have an aesthetic preference you try pass off as some sort of engineering quality?


----------



## NCT

foxmulder said:


> Yes that is exactly what I said. :nuts:
> 
> 1) What is racist is telling "Everyone but companies from China can built this railroad". If you didn't say it don't bother responding it.
> 
> 2) Reasons for the lower cost of high speed rail in China is muuuuch beyond than only lower cost of labor and "lack of care for environment or human life". Again, viaducts are better for the both safety and they have less foot print. This is not my personal opinion. These are facts. UK project differs? good! Viaducts are more expensive anyway.
> 
> 3) It is also very noteworthy that Chinese high speed railways is also higher standards than the Western and Japanese counterparts with min 7000m turn radius and very heavy utilization of viaducts, tunnels (larger diameter than usual), ballastless tracks and airport like stations. So, they "should" have cost much less with "UK standards"
> 
> 4) Moreover, many many more workers work on Chinese high speed rail projects to complete them in shorter times. For example, **130,000** construction workers and engineers were at work at the peak of the construction phase of Beijing-Shanghai line! I wonder how many is working on UK project.?? So individual labor wage is lower but *total labor cost* I am not sure at all.
> 
> Overall, Chinese HSR is a better product with lower cost just like Huawei 5G .
> 
> Main reasons for the lower cost in China is:
> 
> a) standardization of the design and manufacturing process for casting and laying bridge beams on viaducts. (no viaducts makes things even cheaper)
> 
> b) the scale of the network which encouraged all the suppliers to invest in capacity and innovative techniques to decrease the unit cost. (e.g. ballestless tracks in China cost only 1/3 of those in Germany)
> 
> c) high cost construction equipment like beam launching equipment is used in multiple projects.
> 
> Some of these certainly can be applicable to UK project. :cheers:


So many factual inaccuracies in this post.

The point of the discussion is there was claim that a Chinese construction company could build all of HS2 much quicker and for a fraction of the cost, and then you came in with your jingoistic 'China to the rescue, China is the best'.

The questions are therefore what are the conditions that allow China to build quickly and cheaply, and to what extent are those conditions replicable in a UK context.

The two main cost drivers are unit and cost and design.

The two main drivers of *unit cost* are labour and standardisation. There's no question unit labour cost is much lower in China than in the UK. What's important is total labour hours per unit of output (route km plus non-standard civil structures and stations) and total labour cost per unit of output. I expect the former to be similar between UK and China and the latter to be lower in China.

*Standardisation* is closely linked to design.

Take a look at the following fly-through for HS2 Phase 1:






You will see that most of the route is in cuttings or in embankments. Whatever your personal preferences about viaducts, *this is the design that's written into law*.

You are completely wrong about standards and costs.

HS2 is designed for a ruling linespeed of 400km/h. Turning radius, track spacing and tunnel diameters are higher or no lower than Chinese 350km/h standards. You can check for yourself in this document and this document. Tunnels are twin-bore (one bore for each line) of 8.8m diameters.

When it comes to *viaducts vs earthworks*, take a look at this thread. While there are some disagreements between various authors, several things are clear:
- It's easier to control ground subsidence with viaducts - you drill the viaduct supports into the bed rock layer and the dampening mechanisms between the top of supports and beams mean there is room for minor adjustments
- The Chinese have one standard (albeit evolving) viaduct design that can be churned out at a constant and high volume, thereby achieving very favourable unit costs.

Achieving the required ground subsidence tolerance for high-speed operation on the ground is more difficult. The top geological layers are softer and need stabilising using concrete piles. Especially in the Midlands the ground conditions are such that when you dig a cutting the ground will swell up, so you need to leave the ground to stabilise over a number of years before you construct the tracks on top, or use extensive piling, or a combination of both.

The gently undulating landscape of the Midlands is such that the height of embankments or depth of cuttings is constantly changing. Depends on local conditions there are also different requirements for fencing and mitigation planting. There are very limited opportunities for fast assembly-line style construction as you could achieve with continuous viaducts.

The British/Europeans place a high socio-economic value on the appearance of the rural landscape. The natural landscape is to be respected not to be conquered. Whether you like it or not this spirit is deeply embedded into the British planning and construction psych and it's nothing a contractor can change. There is no socio-economic pressure to reduce loss of farmland - only a third of British agricultural land is arable, most of the rest is given to grassland.

Other aspects of HS2 *specification* are much higher than Chinese HSR. HS2 will run at up to 18tph to and from London, and it means it has to run into Central London where passengers can disperse across a number of routes and modes. Station throats need to handle intensive traffic and must be designed for parallel moves - making switches & crossings arrangements and signalling much more complicated. Chinese systems only allow one train to occupy the entire station throat at any one time. China has so far largely avoided such expense - building a standard-layout airport-style station in a rural parkway location is easy and cheap as chips. Most of these Chinese parkway stations have nowhere near the onward travel capacity to handle 18tph worth of arriving and departing passengers. China is now realising the need for upgrading and expanding their central stations, and guess what projects like Chengdu, Xi'an and Guangzhou are proving very difficult to get off the ground, as they encounter similar kinds of political and logistical challenges as encountered in the West for city centre infrastructure enhancements. 

Just because you have two systems of 1435mm track gauge railway doesn't mean these are automatically compatible. The *standards* for switches and crossings in China and Europe are different. A Chinese contractor can't just copy its own design and apply it in the UK/Europe - though ultimately the designs may not be very different, they'd need to go through a full design validation / refinement exercise to achieve the relevant certification.

The UK is the size of a small Chinese province. And while the UK needs to move to a much more pipeline based approach to infrastructure enhancement rather than the current stop-start project-base approach, the reality is it would never achieve the sort of scale of HSR building as seen in China.

China has a very specific set of circumstances which allows it to build HSR cheaply and quickly. Almost none of those circumstances apply in the UK. To achieve those stated time and cost savings you'd need to completely change UK's legal and democratic system. These are obvious points that China Railway Construction Corporation (CRCC) should know about. CRCC should know that it has no ways of effecting those political changes and it should know that the only way it can engage is through a build-to-specification contract rather than a turnkey contract (the hybrid bill effectively rules that out). For it to have made the statements it did, it's either grossly incompetent or it was playing political mischief.


----------



## Sunfuns

NCT said:


> The British place a high socio-economic value on the appearance of the rural landscape. The natural landscape is to be respected not to be conquered. Whether you like it or not this spirit is deeply embedded into the British planning and construction psych and it's nothing a contractor can change. There is no socio-economic pressure to reduce loss of farmland - only a third of British agricultural land is arable, most of the rest is given to grassland.


Not just British, this is a prevailing philosophy in the rest of Europe as well. Viaducts and bridges are built, but only when it's a must (like those two examples higher up the thread in Denmark and Spain).


----------



## Castor_Game

pr1berske said:


> Do you believe that Spanish example suits the landscape?


No, it does not adapt, but neither does a cow or a sheep. Better a wolf, or maybe a bear, were before. And in the UK possibly before the British were the foxes.


----------



## pr1berske

Castor_Game said:


> No, it does not adapt, but neither does a cow or a sheep. Better a wolf, or maybe a bear, were before. And in the UK possibly before the British were the foxes.


Do you believe that viaducts should always dominate the skyline?


----------



## NCT

PwC did a study comparing HS2 Phase 2 cost estimates with international comparators back in 2015. In summary it identified 5 major areas of differences:

7% - strategic objectives
15% - UK infrastructure Context and Sponsor requirements
12% - Delivery model and the UK industry
5% - Design requirements and assets
10%+ Scope and estimate development process.

In short most of additional costs are a result of scope and requirements of HS2. The only things that represented significant opportunities were the third item: delivery model. Because of the stop-start project-based approach of UK infrastructure delivery often at the mercy of the political pendulum, UK's construction industry is reactionary - high mobilisation costs, lack of investment in plant and machinery, loss of industry memory so lessons from previous projects are not always learnt or applied. Alas since 2015 we have not taken steps to address this and the political environment is even more volatile.

Since 2015 cost estimates rose again, confirmed in the HS2 Chairman's Stocktake dated Summer 2019. The main reason was ground condition: requirements for more ground stabilisation interventions and time were identified that weren't apparent before.

Others have postulated (though information from formal sources is sparce) that there may be significant cost delta between 300km/h and 400km/h design speed. One reason cited was that at around 360km/h, given the geology of the Midlands, the train creates a standing wave that travels at a similar speed through the ground, thus causing resonance frequency. This is in contrast to an earlier view that if you were to build a new railway anyway, making it high-speed carried little additional cost.

I do wonder given the size of Britain whether a 400km/h design speed is necessary, given the increasing marginal cost per km/h above the 300km/h mark. The business case depends on 330km/h running with 360km/h for late running. Existing British railways operate with timetables being based on maximum obtainable line speeds without the design headroom. I'm not sure that this headroom represents value for money anymore.

Other cost reduction opportunities were cited in the Oakervee Review published earlier this month. The contracting approach so far is thought to place too much risk with contractors, leading to contractors putting in a significant price premium. The client shouldering a proportion of the risk may bring down the overall project cost. 

Some of design specifications were made in too risk-averse a manner and relaxing some of them would not compromise the capability or quality of the scheme - for example slopes of embankments or the extent of piling (paragraph 8.2 of the Oakervee Review). However the opportunities for reducing such 'gold-plating' may be reviewed if one were not to deviate from the Phase One Act.


----------



## foxmulder

NCT said:


> So many factual inaccuracies in this post.
> 
> The point of the discussion is there was claim that a Chinese construction company could build all of HS2 much quicker and for a fraction of the cost, and then you came in with your jingoistic 'China to the rescue, China is the best'.
> 
> The questions are therefore what are the conditions that allow China to build quickly and cheaply, and to what extent are those conditions replicable in a UK context.
> 
> The two main cost drivers are unit and cost and design.
> 
> The two main drivers of *unit cost* are labour and standardisation. There's no question unit labour cost is much lower in China than in the UK. What's important is total labour hours per unit of output (route km plus non-standard civil structures and stations) and total labour cost per unit of output. I expect the former to be similar between UK and China and the latter to be lower in China.
> 
> *Standardisation* is closely linked to design.
> 
> Take a look at the following fly-through for HS2 Phase 1:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You will see that most of the route is in cuttings or in embankments. Whatever your personal preferences about viaducts, *this is the design that's written into law*.
> 
> You are completely wrong about standards and costs.
> 
> HS2 is designed for a ruling linespeed of 400km/h. Turning radius, track spacing and tunnel diameters are higher or no lower than Chinese 350km/h standards. You can check for yourself in this document and this document. Tunnels are twin-bore (one bore for each line) of 8.8m diameters.
> 
> When it comes to *viaducts vs earthworks*, take a look at this thread. While there are some disagreements between various authors, several things are clear:
> - It's easier to control ground subsidence with viaducts - you drill the viaduct supports into the bed rock layer and the dampening mechanisms between the top of supports and beams mean there is room for minor adjustments
> - The Chinese have one standard (albeit evolving) viaduct design that can be churned out at a constant and high volume, thereby achieving very favourable unit costs.
> 
> Achieving the required ground subsidence tolerance for high-speed operation on the ground is more difficult. The top geological layers are softer and need stabilising using concrete piles. Especially in the Midlands the ground conditions are such that when you dig a cutting the ground will swell up, so you need to leave the ground to stabilise over a number of years before you construct the tracks on top, or use extensive piling, or a combination of both.
> 
> The gently undulating landscape of the Midlands is such that the height of embankments or depth of cuttings is constantly changing. Depends on local conditions there are also different requirements for fencing and mitigation planting. There are very limited opportunities for fast assembly-line style construction as you could achieve with continuous viaducts.
> 
> The British/Europeans place a high socio-economic value on the appearance of the rural landscape. The natural landscape is to be respected not to be conquered. Whether you like it or not this spirit is deeply embedded into the British planning and construction psych and it's nothing a contractor can change. There is no socio-economic pressure to reduce loss of farmland - only a third of British agricultural land is arable, most of the rest is given to grassland.
> 
> Other aspects of HS2 *specification* are much higher than Chinese HSR. HS2 will run at up to 18tph to and from London, and it means it has to run into Central London where passengers can disperse across a number of routes and modes. Station throats need to handle intensive traffic and must be designed for parallel moves - making switches & crossings arrangements and signalling much more complicated. Chinese systems only allow one train to occupy the entire station throat at any one time. China has so far largely avoided such expense - *building a standard-layout airport-style station in a rural parkway location is easy and cheap as chips.* Most of these Chinese parkway stations have nowhere near the onward travel capacity to handle 18tph worth of arriving and departing passengers. China is now realising the need for upgrading and expanding their central stations, and guess what projects like Chengdu, Xi'an and Guangzhou are proving very difficult to get off the ground, as they encounter similar kinds of political and logistical challenges as encountered in the West for city centre infrastructure enhancements.
> 
> Just because you have two systems of 1435mm track gauge railway doesn't mean these are automatically compatible. The *standards* for switches and crossings in China and Europe are different. A Chinese contractor can't just copy its own design and apply it in the UK/Europe - though ultimately the designs may not be very different, they'd need to go through a full design validation / refinement exercise to achieve the relevant certification.
> 
> The UK is the size of a small Chinese province. And while the UK needs to move to a much more pipeline based approach to infrastructure enhancement rather than the current stop-start project-base approach, the reality is it would never achieve the sort of scale of HSR building as seen in China.
> 
> China has a very specific set of circumstances which allows it to build HSR cheaply and quickly. Almost none of those circumstances apply in the UK. To achieve those stated time and cost savings you'd need to completely change UK's legal and democratic system. These are obvious points that China Railway Construction Corporation (CRCC) should know about. CRCC should know that it has no ways of effecting those political changes and it should know that the only way it can engage is through a build-to-specification contract rather than a turnkey contract (the hybrid bill effectively rules that out). For it to have made the statements it did, it's either grossly incompetent or it was playing political mischief.



Like the decade long delayed airport/terminal constructions in Europe?  

If you think it is OK to pay literally 10X more and to complete it 5X longer then it take in China.. good for you. Thinking the cost of building in China is basically because of cheap labor is very factual accurate, yeah hno: 

You think building in Chinese geography is cheaper or easier to built, haha!:! Shanghai area is basically swamp (this is actually another reason for the viaducts), north is frozen, south is mountainous like hell.  Oh brother..... 

Have a good weekend..


----------



## Svartmetall

foxmulder said:


> Like the decade long delayed airport/terminal constructions in Europe?
> 
> If you think it is OK to pay literally 10X more and to complete it 5X longer then it take in China.. good for you. Thinking the cost of building in China is basically because of cheap labor is very factual accurate, yeah hno:
> 
> You think building in Chinese geography is cheaper or easier to built, haha!:! Shanghai area is basically swamp (this is actually another reason for the viaducts), north is frozen, south is mountainous like hell.  Oh brother.....
> 
> Have a good weekend..


Now you're just treating the whole of Europe as the same country - what happened in Berlin with the airport is not even the same as what happened in Munich (see their airport success). Equally, what happens in Germany is not the same as in France, Spain, Sweden, or the UK. Each is a sovereign entity and each operates in very different ways. 

Now, to go on and disregard the reasons for differences in construction length and cost (primarily logistical and legal) and try to tell us that China can still do everything cheaper and faster shows that you have little knowledge of how other countries work. 

Stop trolling and stop the jingoistic nonsense. This is now a mod warning, unless of course you want to receive an infraction.


----------



## geogregor

foxmulder said:


> Like the decade long delayed airport/terminal constructions in Europe?
> 
> If you think it is OK to pay literally 10X more and to complete it 5X longer then it take in China.. good for you. Thinking the cost of building in China is basically because of cheap labor is very factual accurate, yeah hno:
> 
> You think building in Chinese geography is cheaper or easier to built, haha!:! Shanghai area is basically swamp (this is actually another reason for the viaducts), north is frozen, south is mountainous like hell.  Oh brother.....
> 
> Have a good weekend..


Dude. You are are either trolling or you are as dumb as_ feck_. You are not responding to serious conversation in this thread, you just repeat your silly soundbites.

I suggest you start reading what other people are writing rather than just keep repeating that "the Chinese construction is the beast, yeah" phrase


----------



## foxmulder

Svartmetall said:


> Now you're just treating the whole of Europe as the same country - what happened in Berlin with the airport is not even the same as what happened in Munich (see their airport success). Equally, what happens in Germany is not the same as in France, Spain, Sweden, or the UK. Each is a sovereign entity and each operates in very different ways.
> 
> Now, to go on and disregard the reasons for differences in construction length and cost (primarily logistical and legal) and try to tell us that China can still do everything cheaper and faster shows that you have little knowledge of how other countries work.
> 
> Stop trolling and stop the jingoistic nonsense. This is now a mod warning, unless of course you want to receive an infraction.


hahaha

when *NTC says "The British/Europeans place a high socio-economic value on the appearance of the rural landscape."* it is ok tough, right (which also clearly implying Chinese dont.... ). ???:nuts: China build high speed rail network precisely because she gives a huge importance to her environment and people. 

Your bias blinds you. You are jingoistic, not me!

If you want to moderate, just moderate. Not write a opinion on the subject to give me a "lesson" then moderate. lol.


----------



## foxmulder

geogregor said:


> Dude. You are are either trolling or you are as dumb as_ feck_. You are not responding to serious conversation in this thread, you just repeat your silly soundbites.
> 
> I suggest you start reading what other people are writing rather than just keep repeating that "the Chinese construction is the beast, yeah" phrase


I clearly stated the reasons for lower cost. Other people brought up so called "environmental and human right issues". lol. :lol:


----------



## Stuu

foxmulder said:


> hahaha
> 
> when *NTC says "The British/Europeans place a high socio-economic value on the appearance of the rural landscape."* it is ok tough, right (which also clearly implying Chinese dont.... ). ???:nuts:


I think there is a very big difference in what would be considered acceptable in the West with what is acceptable in East Asia. This is not to suggest that the Chinese don't care about the countryside, it's just different. It is quite surprising when you see the contrast between the history of aesthetics and thousands of years of building beautiful gardens etc. and the way cities and the countryside are treated. 

A viaduct like the one you posted earlier would not be built in quite such a utilitarian way in the West, in general larger structures tend to be designed by architects and then engineers make the design work. This undoubtedly adds to the cost but it is part of the way projects are made acceptable to the communities they pass through


----------



## TM_Germany

^^ In Germany, when large viaducts were necessary for HSLs, often there was an effort made to make them less visually imposing by making the pillars as slender as possible or at least to make it aesthetically more interesting to looks at. Here are some examples:









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gruempentalbruecke-Okt2011-2.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Grümpentalbrücke-Juni2012.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Talbruecke-Froschgrundsee-Okt2011.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gänsebachtalbrücke.JPG









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pfieffetal_Bridge_view_from_below.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wälsebachtalbrücke_2017-01-23.jpg

Surely not the cheapest option, but they'll be there for the next 100+ years, so...


----------



## NCT

foxmulder said:


> hahaha
> 
> when *NTC says "The British/Europeans place a high socio-economic value on the appearance of the rural landscape."* it is ok tough, right (which also clearly implying Chinese dont.... ). ???:nuts: .



I implied no such thing, you inferred it.

Stating the value system of one society isn’t implying another is inferior.

I ask again, in the HS2 Phase 1 project specific context, what are the opportunities for CRCC to dramatically reduce cost and time without needing to amend the Phase One Act and without departing from British legal and political norms?


----------



## Temporarily Exiled

dysharmonica said:


> PS: RE: THe Oresund bridge. I'd like you to show me a surface-level sea crossing!


I can show you a subsurface one.


----------



## Justme

I find it pointless getting involved in this debate, except to say all of those European examples of viaducts look infinitely nicer than the Chinese example shown.

Pointless because aesthetics is a personal thing. That said, I find it hard to understand how someone could look at that example photo in China and not see the difference between the other examples shown.

I don't know if that photo is typical of most viaducts in China, perhaps all the others are better. But that particular one smacks of cheapness and zero effort over aesthetics, one of the byproducts of using the cheapest bidder. If we chose to use China to build our HSL based on that it offers the cheapest bid, it is likely to look cheap.


----------



## NCT

Justme said:


> I find it pointless getting involved in this debate, except to say all of those European examples of viaducts look infinitely nicer than the Chinese example shown.
> 
> Pointless because aesthetics is a personal thing. That said, I find it hard to understand how someone could look at that example photo in China and not see the difference between the other examples shown.
> 
> I don't know if that photo is typical of most viaducts in China, perhaps all the others are better. But that particular one smacks of cheapness and zero effort over aesthetics, one of the byproducts of using the cheapest bidder. If we chose to use China to build our HSL based on that it offers the cheapest bid, it is likely to look cheap.


It's not entirely fair to call those viaduct supports cheap either.

At the heart of the China HSR core strategy is A) speed of delivery, and B) opportunities for mass production. Added to that there are strict national guidelines on how much farmland you can take up.

Earthworks based solutions require too much time for ground settlement, and time to develop site specific designs (embankment/cutting slopes and piling), and they take up greater width, so they are effectively ruled out.

That leaves viaducts as the default. There are big variations in geology, and you have the near tropical climate in the south and -30 degree temperatures in the north. They want repeatability, and they were short of time, so they came up with this one-size-fits-all over-engineering design - it's not a looker but it's safe and be rolled out fast.


----------



## dysharmonica

National preference for viaducts over groundworks definitely visible in the Chinese lines. When one is building thousands of kilemeters of track one can easily build this in a factory setting. 

That still does not mean that the Chienese can deliver HS2 way cheaper than the British. It also does not mean that HS2 is poorly enigneered. And definitely does not mean that HS2 is uglier, will destroy communities and whatnot. 

I know of many projects in Europe, and North America where communitiesactively fought against elevated alignment - preferring progets relying on groundworks. 

Finally. This being England, the groudworks are relatively easy and I will bet my hat and aleft shoe that all the analyses were done that show a groundowrks approach is cheaper, not more expensive and or more acceptable for the communities which in the UK have outsized influence over construction projects.


----------



## foxmulder

NCT said:


> I implied no such thing, you inferred it.
> 
> Stating the value system of one society isn’t implying another is inferior.
> 
> I ask again, in the HS2 Phase 1 project specific context, what are the opportunities for CRCC to dramatically reduce cost and time without needing to amend the Phase One Act and without departing from British legal and political norms?


We are writing about two things so I want to separate a) aesthetics/”values”/design philosophy b) the cost. So let’s start with 

a) aesthetics/”values”/design philosophy

1) If someone doesn’t like the way Chinese viaducts (or almost any viaduct for that matter) look that is obviously preference. Nothing to say about that. I love the look of them since I find them very modern especially when coupled with balastless tracks. Anyway.. 

2) Fewer or shorter viaducts for HS2 is *not* because of aesthetics or respect to nature but for the lower cost. The cost of viaducts will be even higher, period. Therefore, bringing the so called "The British/Europeans place a high socio-economic value on the appearance of the rural landscape" type of argument is insincere.

3) I randomly picked one of the first high speed rail line pictures that came up on google which I liked and find representative for Chinese HSR. I didn't look for a "beautiful" scenery/architecture so below more examples with nicer representation of line-land relation. Please note the small foot print of the railroads and farming/nature thriving right next to the line! So if one is really serious about having less impact on the land, one should pick viaducts so everywhere becomes the so called “green bridges”. Otherwise it is a publicity stunt. On grade high speed rail line foot print is at least 3x more than viaducts (the last picture) and hence it has significantly more impact to the land. Also elevated line is inherently safer. A sheep herd cannot suddenly show up on the lines like happened in Germany. 

































































4) Some pictures above which were shared for “nicer” EU designed bridges are comparing apples to oranges because what I shared was not a special bridge on a Chinese high speed rail line but a regular section of the line. A regular section of a high speed line looks like this in UK/EU:





























Bridges on China high speed rail network look like these: 









































































Arch bridges are loved in China. Also keep in mind these bridges have to bear the loads of 2 350km/h 16-car trains. Typhoons and earthquakes are significant concerns too depending on the location. Therefore they have to be a little bit hefty  




b) The cost: I mentioned above post of mine but let’s go further.

1) Standardization: This is mainly about standard length and construction methods of viaduct and beam design as you mentioned. The viaducts in China produced at on-side factories. Very little is “custom”. Therefore, all equipment, manufacturing methods etc already optimized. Basically fixed cost is already invested. So, a Chinese company can build the viaducts on HS2 significantly cheaper. It does not matter whether 5% or 85% of the line is viaducts. Even if it is only 5% of the line, that 5% will be built cheaper because very little needs to be spent on the equipment.

2) Economy of scale: Because of the immense scale in China, companies developed new methods of performing certain tasks cheaper. I gave the ballastless track example above. In China it costs 1/3rd of that in Germany. What is even more impressive is the tunneling. Tunnels cost 1/5th in China than other parts of the world. This type of cost reduction is true for almost everything. Electrification equipment are significantly cheaper in China too. So, again not much in the way of transferring these equipment, material and know/how to England. 

3) And yes, Chinese engineers’ and workers’ salaries are lower. They will be still lower in UK too. For the ones above UK minimum wage it will stay at whatever they are. For the lower ones it will be increased to UK min wage which will be still lower than UK worker cost.

I am certain a Chinese company can built it much lower than 110Billion (-land acquisition cost) pound. They have built similar 350km/h rails in all around China for 1/10th of this with much more tunneling and viaducts ratio. For the 30,000km high speed rail line built in china, average viaduct + tunnel sections are at >80% of the total network!

Why do you think Chinese know-how/experience of 30,000km construction means nothing in UK, a country with only just above 100km of high speed rail line? Don’t you think you are accepting the staggering price tag for a 500km high speed rail too easily?


----------



## geogregor

I'm struggling to understand if this thread is about construction of the HS2 in the UK or something about Chinese railways...

Maybe we can have some separate thread titled China vs UK or China vs Europe or anything equally silly. 

And here we could concentrate on the actual design, preparatory works and construction of the HS2?


----------



## WingTips

*"Manchester could get HS2 before Leeds as government plans to split northern section"*

*"Officials say dividing the bill will pave the way for the Western leg of HS2 2b - from Crewe to Manchester - to be built sooner.*

The government will split the bill for the northern section of HS2 in a bid to get the line to Manchester 'as quickly as possible'.

Officials say dividing the bill will pave the way for the Western leg of HS2 2b - from Crewe to Manchester - to be built as soon as possible.

The eastern leg - to Leeds via the East Midlands - would come in a separate, potentially later, bill.

In his first speech, Andrew Stephenson, minister for HS2, said they would 'be bringing forward legislation for the high-speed line into Manchester as soon as practical'.

A Department for Transport spokesman confirmed they would be splitting the hybrid bill for the northern section to 'introduce the western leg to Manchester as quickly as possible'."

Full story...https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ews/hs2-manchester-leeds-hybrid-bill-17826514


----------



## Shenkey

geogregor said:


> I'm struggling to understand if this thread is about construction of the HS2 in the UK or something about Chinese railways...
> 
> Maybe we can have some separate thread titled China vs UK or China vs Europe or anything equally silly.
> 
> And here we could concentrate on the actual design, preparatory works and construction of the HS2?


It is because United Front office of CCP has instructed him to start spreading propaganda. More on United Front: https://www.ft.com/content/fb2b3934-b004-11e7-beba-5521c713abf4

China has huge overcapacity issues and want to solve them by "improving infrastructure in 3rd countries" which are basically just a way to offload the cost of Chinese overcapacity.


Bridges in the post look nice, but general lines are an abomination. Raised so they impede the view and propagate noise. As you can see UK likes to build the lines in a ditch. This way you can't see them and even more importantly you don't hear them.
Not to say that it is easy to build roads over it.


----------



## NCT

foxmulder said:


> We are writing about two things so I want to separate a) aesthetics/”values”/design philosophy b) the cost. So let’s start with
> 
> a) aesthetics/”values”/design philosophy
> 
> 1) If someone doesn’t like the way Chinese viaducts (or almost any viaduct for that matter) look that is obviously preference. Nothing to say about that. I love the look of them since I find them very modern especially when coupled with balastless tracks. Anyway..
> 
> 2) Fewer or shorter viaducts for HS2 is *not* because of aesthetics or respect to nature but for the lower cost. The cost of viaducts will be even higher, period. Therefore, bringing the so called "The British/Europeans place a high socio-economic value on the appearance of the rural landscape" type of argument is insincere.


On this you are simply wrong. I've posted various sources in both Chinese and English explaining the key drivers of HSR in a variety of contexts. For 400km/h cuttings and embankments are more complex, more costly, and more time consuming than viaducts. Around half of construction cost in HSR is civil works, and for 400km/h railway the geotechnical complexity of earthwork-based tracks is significantly higher than viaducts. You boast Chinese HSR is cheaper and yet are determined to believe one of the major construction elements must be more expensive than in the UK. This cannot be credible. You have repeatedly demonstrated you know nothing about civil engineering and have no interest in educating itself.

And it doesn't matter what you think or what you think is 'insincere', the fact of the matter is HS2 design (at least Phase One) is *written into law* (the Phase One Act).



> b) The cost: I mentioned above post of mine but let’s go further.
> 
> 1) Standardization: This is mainly about standard length and construction methods of viaduct and beam design as you mentioned. The viaducts in China produced at on-side factories. Very little is “custom”. Therefore, all equipment, manufacturing methods etc already optimized. Basically fixed cost is already invested. So, a Chinese company can build the viaducts on HS2 significantly cheaper. It does not matter whether 5% or 85% of the line is viaducts. Even if it is only 5% of the line, that 5% will be built cheaper because very little needs to be spent on the equipment.
> 
> 2) Economy of scale: Because of the immense scale in China, companies developed new methods of performing certain tasks cheaper. I gave the ballastless track example above. In China it costs 1/3rd of that in Germany. What is even more impressive is the tunneling. Tunnels cost 1/5th in China than other parts of the world. This type of cost reduction is true for almost everything. Electrification equipment are significantly cheaper in China too. So, again not much in the way of transferring these equipment, material and know/how to England.


Well, sorry to state the obvious, but the Phase One Act precludes much of the type of standardisation you speak of - most of the design is custom by law. And HS2, the size of a regional rail in China is the only game in town for the foreseeable future, so there are no to few other UK projects that can share the inevitable fixed costs incurred by HS2. Where viaducts are specified, the conditions set out in the Phase One Act will likely preclude the use of standard Chinese designs.



> 3) And yes, Chinese engineers’ and workers’ salaries are lower. They will be still lower in UK too. For the ones above UK minimum wage it will stay at whatever they are. For the lower ones it will be increased to UK min wage which will be still lower than UK worker cost.


Glad we are getting somewhere in acknowledging labour is a key cost driver. I can categorically tell you employing Chinese workers at UK minimum wage is not going to happen. Visa regulations preclude this from happening for starters. One of the key political commitments of HS2 is to develop a UK skills base and supply chain not just for HS2 but for future projects.

And are you seriously suggesting shipping a team of Chinese construction workers who to work in the UK and live in the UK, but to live as second class residents economically and socially segregated from their domestic industry peers?



> I am certain a Chinese company can built it much lower than 110Billion (-land acquisition cost) pound. They have built similar 350km/h rails in all around China for 1/10th of this with much more tunneling and viaducts ratio. For the 30,000km high speed rail line built in china, average viaduct + tunnel sections are at >80% of the total network!
> 
> Why do you think Chinese know-how/experience of 30,000km construction means nothing in UK, a country with only just above 100km of high speed rail line? Don’t you think you are accepting the staggering price tag for a 500km high speed rail too easily?


Again, this is the type of jingoistic clap-trap that reveals a complete lack of understanding of cost drivers and the planning and legal context.

Here is the Rail Journal article on How China builds HSR for less that states slab track being about 1/3 cheaper in China than in Germany. The primary reasons cited are scale and labour costs. Other things to note:


Infrastructure unit cost of Chinese 350km/h lines are $US17-21m compared with $US25-35m for French projects. It's a small difference that can almost entirely be explained by labour costs and economies of scale.
Large stations are often excluded from China's HSL project costs. Those stations don't come cheap. HS2 has several city centre stations, including Euston which requires substantial demolitions (by UK standards), and which will have to be constructed in confined spaces while keeping the existing station and railway operational at all times.

There's also  this report where page 14 summarises the breakdown of of total costs for the full Y-network. Note this was in 2011 prices - since then prices have been rebased (2015 prices), risk and contingency allowance was increased and point estimates for specific items such as civil works, tunnelling and especially land costs have increased.

This article states standard railway viaducts in China ranges from RMB 57-73m/km (so £6-8m/km). Looking at the HS2 breakdown table and adjusted for recent revelations about ground conditions in the Midlands and the North and including an appropriate share of overall risk allowance, the cost of civil works per km on HS2 (>£10m/km) looks quite a bit higher than viaducts in China.

CRCC claims it can build the full HS2 network in 5 years and for a significantly lower price and you came here to wax lyrical about 'China to the rescue'. Now, the Chinese government is famous for not meddling in other countries internal affairs, so the only relevant exam question to ask is how it would deliver its claimed time and cost savings by
- not requiring changes to the Phase One Act, meaning not using China's viaduct-based approach;
- not depressing the prevailing industry wage rate;
- not requiring changes to UK's planning system (hybrid bill process for Phase 2a and 2b);
- not changing the way land and property owners are compensated
- not reducing the scope of the project

So far all of your answers violate some or all of the above.

Areas with large cost uncertainties or significant cost reduction opportunities in my view are the following:
- A more risk-informed geotechnical approach to embankments. This is not an area China has experience in - it's an issue China deliberately set out to avoid through its decision to adopt widespread use of viaducts. This thread suggests China's record in managing subsidence of embankments/cuttings isn't exactly stellar.
- Euston - again, not an area China has experience in - China has so far avoided city centre stations with confined construction areas especially for approach tracks - places like Beijing South were done with much generous construction conditions.
- Approach to contracting - that's in the gift of the client not the contractor. I do not see any logical reason why CRCC would want to price in risk systematically lower than another contractor. In fact, CRCC may be ill prepared for the European type of client-contractor relationship, where stringent metrics are required to be written into contracts in tenders and the contractor holds long-term liability.


----------



## BoulderGrad

Mods?...


----------



## geogregor

NTC, as much as I admire your knowledgeable posts, by indulging certain user in debate with him you are going to drag this endless and pointless debate forever.

It is time to give up and focus on the progress of the project. It would be good to know what is the status of the TBM orderds for example.


----------



## foxmulder

NCT said:


> On this you are simply wrong. I've posted various sources in both Chinese and English explaining the key drivers of HSR in a variety of contexts. For 400km/h cuttings and embankments are more complex, more costly, and more time consuming than viaducts. Around half of construction cost in HSR is civil works, and for 400km/h railway the geotechnical complexity of earthwork-based tracks is significantly higher than viaducts. You boast Chinese HSR is cheaper and yet are determined to believe one of the major construction elements must be more expensive than in the UK. This cannot be credible. You have repeatedly demonstrated you know nothing about civil engineering and have no interest in educating itself.
> 
> And it doesn't matter what you think or what you think is 'insincere', the fact of the matter is HS2 design (at least Phase One) is *written into law* (the Phase One Act).
> 
> 
> 
> Well, sorry to state the obvious, but the Phase One Act precludes much of the type of standardisation you speak of - most of the design is custom by law. And HS2, the size of a regional rail in China is the only game in town for the foreseeable future, so there are no to few other UK projects that can share the inevitable fixed costs incurred by HS2. Where viaducts are specified, the conditions set out in the Phase One Act will likely preclude the use of standard Chinese designs.
> 
> 
> 
> Glad we are getting somewhere in acknowledging labour is a key cost driver. I can categorically tell you employing Chinese workers at UK minimum wage is not going to happen. Visa regulations preclude this from happening for starters. One of the key political commitments of HS2 is to develop a UK skills base and supply chain not just for HS2 but for future projects.
> 
> And are you seriously suggesting shipping a team of Chinese construction workers who to work in the UK and live in the UK, but to live as second class residents economically and socially segregated from their domestic industry peers?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this is the type of jingoistic clap-trap that reveals a complete lack of understanding of cost drivers and the planning and legal context.
> 
> Here is the Rail Journal article on How China builds HSR for less that states slab track being about 1/3 cheaper in China than in Germany. The primary reasons cited are scale and labour costs. Other things to note:
> 
> 
> Infrastructure unit cost of Chinese 350km/h lines are $US17-21m compared with $US25-35m for French projects. It's a small difference that can almost entirely be explained by labour costs and economies of scale.
> Large stations are often excluded from China's HSL project costs. Those stations don't come cheap. HS2 has several city centre stations, including Euston which requires substantial demolitions (by UK standards), and which will have to be constructed in confined spaces while keeping the existing station and railway operational at all times.
> 
> There's also  this report where page 14 summarises the breakdown of of total costs for the full Y-network. Note this was in 2011 prices - since then prices have been rebased (2015 prices), risk and contingency allowance was increased and point estimates for specific items such as civil works, tunnelling and especially land costs have increased.
> 
> This article states standard railway viaducts in China ranges from RMB 57-73m/km (so £6-8m/km). Looking at the HS2 breakdown table and adjusted for recent revelations about ground conditions in the Midlands and the North and including an appropriate share of overall risk allowance, the cost of civil works per km on HS2 (>£10m/km) looks quite a bit higher than viaducts in China.
> 
> CRCC claims it can build the full HS2 network in 5 years and for a significantly lower price and you came here to wax lyrical about 'China to the rescue'. Now, the Chinese government is famous for not meddling in other countries internal affairs, so the only relevant exam question to ask is how it would deliver its claimed time and cost savings by
> - not requiring changes to the Phase One Act, meaning not using China's viaduct-based approach;
> - not depressing the prevailing industry wage rate;
> - not requiring changes to UK's planning system (hybrid bill process for Phase 2a and 2b);
> - not changing the way land and property owners are compensated
> - not reducing the scope of the project
> 
> So far all of your answers violate some or all of the above.
> 
> Areas with large cost uncertainties or significant cost reduction opportunities in my view are the following:
> - A more risk-informed geotechnical approach to embankments. This is not an area China has experience in - it's an issue China deliberately set out to avoid through its decision to adopt widespread use of viaducts. This thread suggests China's record in managing subsidence of embankments/cuttings isn't exactly stellar.
> - Euston - again, not an area China has experience in - China has so far avoided city centre stations with confined construction areas especially for approach tracks - places like Beijing South were done with much generous construction conditions.
> - Approach to contracting - that's in the gift of the client not the contractor. I do not see any logical reason why CRCC would want to price in risk systematically lower than another contractor. In fact, CRCC may be ill prepared for the European type of client-contractor relationship, where stringent metrics are required to be written into contracts in tenders and the contractor holds long-term liability.


HS2 report *disagrees* with you:










Civil works is an order magnitude cheaper than tunnels+viaducts per unit. 

For people who may be confused by the numbers in this report from 2012, don't be. The report estimated the total cost of the project as 33 billion. The construction cost was written as 14 billion but this number was based on the estimates from potential bidders and "risk" doubles this because everyone knows bidders underestimate. So 12% of 500km route which is tunnels and viaducts estimated to cost around 10 billion (after risk budget is allocated to these) and all the civil works for the whole line cost expected to be around half of that at 5 billion.

The report also shows land cost is not that expensive, at only around 6% of the total cost. 

Since 2012, the estimates tripled...

I am glad you gave the French example. Those numbers are absolutely true. A km of line in China costs around $20million. (UK per km cost is expected to be around 200 million in pounds!) In France, it costs around $30million. However 2 things have to be noted:

1) Chinese rail is 85% tunnels/viaducts and French is other way around.
2) French line min curve radius is 4000m whereas Chinese one is 7000m. The less straighter line requires less tunneling and viaducts and civil works. 

If French were building more viaducts, the cost would have been higher for them. If Chinese were building less viaducts cost would have been even lower. In nowhere on Earth, viaducts cost less than civil works in the same country. 

The key is not labor for Chinese cost. It is a factor but the key is economies of scale and standardization. You believe nothing can be transferred from Chinese experience to UK. I disagree. Even within the scope of the law, a lot can be transferred. 

I am not jingoistic. I am not even Chinese. However, your "Chinese are building cheaper only because of cheapo labor" take might be a little problematic since it prevents you from appreciating the real underlying reasons and achievements.


----------



## geogregor

HS2 Euston works to restart next week



> HS2 has said contractors will restart construction work at the London Euston site in a week’s time.
> 
> Contractors were working towards resuming work today, but the start has been put back a week.
> 
> HS2 paused work on all but the Midlands sites following the lockdown and has been reviewing working practices to allow the restart.
> 
> A spokesman said: “Some of our contractors have taken the decision to recommence works on a limited number of work sites.
> 
> “Our contractors have thoroughly risk assessed these activities and are confident they can be undertaken safely, protecting our staff and the communities in which we are working.
> 
> “Following further planning to ensure works follow the PHE guidance, Network Rail are now planning to restart work at the Euston station site from Monday 20 April.”
> 
> Work will start on the deconstruction of the west ramp and the removal of the canopy from platform 17 and 18 ahead of a crane being brought in a week later to remove materials.


Current view of the Euston site:




















And activities in the rural sections:


----------



## Unknow2

A bit late to the party, but...



Shenkey said:


> Bridges in the post look nice, but general lines are an abomination. *Raised so they impede the view and propagate noise. As you can see UK likes to build the lines in a ditch. This way you can't see them and even more importantly you don't hear them.
> Not to say that it is easy to build roads over it.*


I'm not gonna comment or say anything about China's "propaganda". But most of Japan's Shinkansen network is elevated. I don't know why they didn't put it in a ditch. But for safty reason, I think elevated line is safer. Stuff can fall into a ditch much easier than on to an elevated track.

And it's equally easy to build the road under the elevated track or across the ditch.


----------



## Northumbriana

Where I'm from 'propagate' and 'propaganda' refer to a really sturdy gate and having a good look respectively. 

Elevated lines mean railways stay out of reach of most ground based disruptions such as flooding. We could probably do with elevating some of our existing railway lines for this reason.


----------



## Stuu

Unknow2 said:


> A bit late to the party, but...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not gonna comment or say anything about China's "propaganda". But most of Japan's Shinkansen network is elevated. I don't know why they didn't put it in a ditch. But for safty reason, I think elevated line is safer. Stuff can fall into a ditch much easier than on to an elevated track.
> 
> And it's equally easy to build the road under the elevated track or across the ditch.


It is much, much cheaper to build something elevated than to dig a trench. And as you rightly say, stuff falls in, especially water, so elevated is much more practical


----------



## Stuu

Notice to proceed issued by the government, this means contracts can be signed and work started asap, subject to CV-19 restrictions


----------



## pr1berske

Well, I guess that's my opposition done and dusted, eh.


----------



## WarwickDan

Yes, yes it is. 

Full steam ahead London to Birmingham.


----------



## pr1berske

WarwickDan said:


> Yes, yes it is.
> 
> Full steam ahead London to Birmingham.


I've posted this elsewhere so I might as well try to replicate it.

I have typed thousands and thousands of words into the Internet into objection to HS2. And I'm still opposed to it. And I will never use it. But I am done. I am done typing thousands of words. I am done typing objection after objection. I am done damaging my mental health over this. Of course I'm disappointed and I am angry, angry that HS2 is going ahead in the face of the clear and obvious fact that it's not required. BUT......I'm done. I can't anymore. I want to be a constructive and well respected member of this forum and others, and that means taking myself away from all HS2 threads. Let's call it therapy. Let's call it learning about my mistakes and moving forward. 

So yeah, I've learned a lesson. I'm defeated. I'm deflated. And I'm done.


----------



## Negjana

Good!


----------



## geogregor

pr1berske said:


> I've posted this elsewhere so I might as well try to replicate it.
> 
> I have typed thousands and thousands of words into the Internet into objection to HS2. And I'm still opposed to it. And I will never use it. But I am done. I am done typing thousands of words. I am done typing objection after objection.* I am done damaging my mental health over this.* Of course I'm disappointed and I am angry, angry that HS2 is going ahead in the face of the clear and obvious fact that it's not required. BUT......I'm done. I can't anymore. I want to be a constructive and well respected member of this forum and others, and that means taking myself away from all HS2 threads. Let's call it therapy. Let's call it learning about my mistakes and moving forward.
> 
> So yeah, I've learned a lesson. I'm defeated. I'm deflated. And I'm done.


Great, I'll rise a glass and drink to your mental health


----------



## Justme

pr1berske said:


> I've posted this elsewhere so I might as well try to replicate it.
> 
> I have typed thousands and thousands of words into the Internet into objection to HS2. And I'm still opposed to it. And I will never use it. But I am done. I am done typing thousands of words. I am done typing objection after objection. I am done damaging my mental health over this. Of course I'm disappointed and I am angry, angry that HS2 is going ahead in the face of the clear and obvious fact that it's not required. BUT......I'm done. I can't anymore. I want to be a constructive and well respected member of this forum and others, and that means taking myself away from all HS2 threads. Let's call it therapy. Let's call it learning about my mistakes and moving forward.
> 
> So yeah, I've learned a lesson. I'm defeated. I'm deflated. And I'm done.


Well, the last thing I would want is your mental health damaged so I wish you peace and all the best there. What I will say is that you won't need to use HS2 to benefit hugely. Once it is up and running, it will take express trains off the mainline routes. This will have a huge, positive impact on local services which won't have to wait for slots in-between the more important fast trains. This will improve efficiency, reliability and frequency across a whole massive part of England - especially in the cities outside London, but also regions quite far away.

The whole thing about HS2 was that a faster journey was only one benefit from many others. The media focused on that one benefit and ignored the rest which many argue are far more important. If anything, the faster journey is like a bit of extra icing on the cake. The real advantages are so many other things.


----------



## Stuu

pr1berske said:


> I've posted this elsewhere so I might as well try to replicate it.
> 
> I have typed thousands and thousands of words into the Internet into objection to HS2. And I'm still opposed to it. And I will never use it. But I am done. I am done typing thousands of words. I am done typing objection after objection. I am done damaging my mental health over this. Of course I'm disappointed and I am angry, angry that HS2 is going ahead in the face of the clear and obvious fact that it's not required.


Obviously I hope your mental health recovers, but I'm a little puzzled why you would get into such a state over this in the first place. You aren't going to be affected by it in any way at all, your home isn't at risk for example. It's going to cost 1% of GDP per year at most (ignoring the current crisis), so it's affordable even if the numbers are pretty shocking. Why are you so adamant it isn't required? A lot of the anti-HS2 groups agree that something is needed, just not this design. 

I don't wish to appear antagonistic, but when you have made arguments on here, you don't seem to have taken on board the counter-arguments, and there are very good arguments for doing _something. _I don't think the scheme is perfect, but it's enormously better than nothing


----------



## Temporarily Exiled

I sincerely hope the line doesn't end at Birmingham, phase 2 is needed.


----------



## Gusiluz

Well, the thread is a lot of fun, and all that, but we'll have to get back to the subject sometime:

*High Speed 2 Notice to Proceed issued *Railway Gazette 15 April 2020


> On April 15 the Department for Transport gave project promoter HS2 Ltd approval to issue its four main works civils contractors with Notice to Proceed with full detailed design and construction of the 225 km London – West Midlands Phase 1 of the high speed network.
> NtP marks formal approval for the launch of the construction phase, and the point at which contractors SCS Railways, Align JV, EKFB JV and BBV JV transition from scheme design and preparatory work to full detailed design and construction.



SCS Railways (Skanska Construction UK, Costain, Strabag)
Align JV (Bouygues Travaux Publics SAS, a subsidiary of Bouygues Construction, Sir Robert McAlpine and VolkerFitzpatrick, a subsidiary of VolkerWessels UK)
EKBF JV (Eiffage Genie Civil, Kier Infrastructure and Overseas, BAM Nuttall, Ferrovial Agroman), and
BBV JV (Balfour Beatty Group, Vinci Construction Grands Projets, Vinci Construction UK, Vinci Construction Terrassement).



> DfT has also published the full business case for High Speed 2 Phase 1, setting out the strategic, economic, financial, commercial and management rationale for the project, building on the outline business case published in 2013.
> This puts the cost of Phase 1 at £35bn to £45bn, including contingency. *Passenger services between Old Oak Common and Birmingham Curzon Street are expected to start between 2029 and 2033, with full Phase 1 services from London Euston to start in 2031-36*.





> Phase 1 has a central-case benefit-cost ratio of 1·2:1, including wider economic impacts. The full Y-shaped network comprising phases 1, 2a and 2b, has a BCR of 1·5:1 including wider economic impacts. However, the business case says that until information is available on the potential impact of Covid-19 on long-term demand and economic growth, ‘it is not possible to say whether this will materially impact the value for money of HS2’.





> ‘HS2 has been over 10 years in development and design. While the country’s focus is rightly on defeating Covid-19, the issuing of Notice to Proceed today ensures that our contractors and their supply chains have the confidence that they can commit to building HS2, generating thousands of skilled jobs across the country as we recover from the pandemic.’
> HS2 Ltd estimates that Phase 1 will create 400 000 supply chain contract opportunities, of which around 95% would be won by UK-based businesses, with around two-thirds of these being SMEs.





> Roberts said ‘a small army of 11 000 people is already working to make HS2 a reality – and that number will rise to 15 000 this year and 30 000 in the longer term, including 2 000 apprentices.’
> Darren Caplan, Chief Executive of the Railway Industry Association, said HS2 was a ‘truly transformational project’ for the economy and connectivity, which would ‘create thousands of jobs and spur investment, at a time when the UK will be looking at how it can recover economically from this coronavirus outbreak’.


----------



## Unknow2

Northumbriana said:


> Where I'm from 'propagate' and 'propaganda' refer to a really sturdy gate and having a good look respectively.
> 
> Elevated lines mean railways stay out of reach of most ground based disruptions such as flooding. We could probably do with elevating some of our existing railway lines for this reason.





Stuu said:


> It is much, much cheaper to build something elevated than to dig a trench. And as you rightly say, stuff falls in, especially water, so elevated is much more practical


But viaduct really ruined the landscape and scenic around the track. And it will get uglier as the time goes by when the viaduct gets old.

Personally, I prefer fenced up ground-level line or an elevated line that built on a dike. Dike is visually less intrusive that viaduct. Photo below shows train running on a dike (notice how high the track is, compare to a rice field below)








Cr. The 7 Best Scenic Train Rides in Japan - Japan Rail Pass Blog

Earlier Shinkansen track was built on a dike but they switched to a viaduct on a newer line. They must have a reason for doing that. Maybe dike has some issued that we aren't aware of.


----------



## Short

Unknow2 said:


> But viaduct really ruined the landscape and scenic around the track. And it will get uglier as the time goes by when the viaduct gets old.
> 
> Personally, I prefer fenced up ground-level line or an elevated line that built on a dike. Dike is visually less intrusive that viaduct. Photo below shows train running on a dike (notice how high the track is, compare to a rice field below)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cr. The 7 Best Scenic Train Rides in Japan - Japan Rail Pass Blog
> 
> Earlier Shinkansen track was built on a dike but they switched to a viaduct on a newer line. They must have a reason for doing that. Maybe dike has some issued that we aren't aware of.


Put simply, it is the cost of constructing dikes that make it prohibitive. Also the implications in hydrology and wildlife crossings too. Having a yard mass producing concrete girders and beams allow for a flexible, quicker and cheaper method of construction. It is the single biggest reason that China has been able to build at a third of the cost of other countries and allowed them to expand their high-speed rail network massively.


----------



## Stuu

Unknow2 said:


> Earlier Shinkansen track was built on a dike but they switched to a viaduct on a newer line. They must have a reason for doing that. Maybe dike has some issued that we aren't aware of.


As well as being quicker to build and less of a barrier, viaducts are much easier to engineer to be safe in earthquakes, and also to inspect for damage afterwards - a big issue in Japan and anywhere else prone to earthquakes


----------



## Northumbriana

I'd imagine a trespasser would be capable of getting up a dike whereas getting onto a viaduct would require climbing equipment.


----------



## Unknow2

Northumbriana said:


> I'd imagine a trespasser would be capable of getting up a dike whereas getting onto a viaduct would require climbing equipment.


Speaking of trespasser, how did France, Spain and German deal with this issue? There highspeed tracks in on the ground, even on newer line and they run at 300kph (186mph) or more. And I rarely heard any news about trespasser, both human and animal.


----------



## Gusiluz

In Spain it is necessary that the access to the track is fenced to be able to circulate at 200 km/h.
Even so, wild boars have entered, for example.

German high-speed train derails after hitting sheep. Reuters APRIL 27, 2008


> BERLIN, April 27 (Reuters) - Three people were injured when a high-speed German Intercity Express (ICE) train carrying 170 passengers derailed after hitting a herd of sheep in a tunnel near Fulda, German police said on Sunday.
> 
> The three people suffering broken bones were taken to hospital while another 20 people with slight injuries including bruises and cuts were treated and released.
> 
> The train was travelling faster than 200 km (120 mph) per hour. It was en route from Hamburg to Munich when it hit into the herd of sheep that had wandered into the 11-km (7-mile) long tunnel near the central town of Fulda.





> The ICE train, which can travel at speeds of up to 250 km (155 miles) per hour derailed late on Saturday, with the first four of 12 carriages coming off the track. It came to a halt about 1 km (0.6 miles) after hitting and killing the 20 sheep.
> 
> The driver of the train was not injured.
> 
> "It was a really large herd of sheep that had lost its way in the tunnel," said German federal police spokesman Reza Ahmari. "The train collided with at least 20 sheep and derailed. It was travelling at more than 200 km per hour."


----------



## Northumbriana

I could be completely wrong but I think French railways are a lot more fenced off than German railways.


----------



## MarcVD

In France and Belgium, all high speed lines are fenced. This required to build several passages under or over the tracks to let the wildlife across.


----------



## TER200

MarcVD said:


> In France and Belgium, all high speed lines are fenced.


Although sometimes there are boars or horses on the tracks, but it's very rare.
Classic lines, even for 220 km/h, are in general not fenced.


----------



## Gusiluz

Well, while here we discuss whether the construction has to go with viaducts or with trenches, HS2 is already prepared to start the work.
Sources


> Eiffage and Kier receive Notice to Proceed for HS2, with their new partners, BAM Nuttall and Ferrovial Agroman
> 
> The Eiffage Kier joint venture, recently joined by two new partners BAM Nuttall and Ferrovial Agroman, is pleased that today (15th of April), it has received Notice to Proceed (NTP) from HS2 Limited, enabling it to commence the full detailed design and construction of 80km of Phase 1 of the HS2 railway (the route from London – Birmingham).





> Throughout construction of the project, the partners will deliver Lots C2 and C3 of the HS2 high-speed railway. This 80km section runs between the Chilterns to Warwickshire and includes 15 viaducts, 5km of green tunnels, 22km of road diversions, 67 overbridges and 30 million cubic metres of excavation. The total value of the section, including the design and development work already completed is £2.269bn.
> 
> Construction works are expected to start later in the year.


JV: 35% Eiffage; 35% Kier; 15% BAM Nuttall ; 15% Ferrovial Agroman


> Ferrovial Agroman brings 60 years of rail experience, the last 30 of which include delivering high speed rail schemes around the world, including construction of 25% of the Spanish network and maintenance of 55%. Additionally, Ferrovial Agroman and BAM Nuttall offer in-depth working knowledge of the route as they are currently delivering the central section of the HS2 Enabling Works as two thirds of the Fusion joint venture.


----------



## Gusiluz

Awarded contractors (joint ventures):

*SCS Railways* (Skanska Construction UK, Costain and Strabag AG) Sweden, United Kingdom and Austria.
*Align JV* (Bouygues Travaux Publics SAS, Sir Robert McAlpine and VolkerWessels UK) France, United Kingdom and the Netherlands.
*EKBF JV* (Eiffage Genie Civil, Kier Infrastructure and Overseas, BAM Nuttall, Ferrovial Agroman) France, United Kingdom, U.K. and Spain. (former CEK JV*)
*BBV JV* (Balfour Beatty Group, Vinci Construction Grands Projets, Vinci Construction UK, Vinci Construction Terrassement) United Kingdom and France.

(*) CEK JV (Carillion Construction Ltd, Eiffage Genie Civil SA, Kier Infrastructure and Overseas Ltd)

Main civil engineering works contracts for Stage 1 of HS2 Phase One. gov.uk



> Phase One of the railway - from London to West Midlands - is progressing well. In February 2017, Parliament granted powers to construct the route from London to Birmingham, including new stations at London Euston, Old Oak Common, Birmingham Curzon Street and Birmingham Interchange, near Solihull. As a result, enabling works on the route, contracts for which were awarded last November, have now started.





> In March 2017 the tender shortlist for Phase One of the main civil engineering works contracts, comprising bridges, tunnels, embankments and viaducts, was released. These are the biggest HS2 contracts to date. In a clear signal of how work is progressing, this morning I am pleased to announce the decision to award Stage 1 of these contracts, comprising design and construction preparation works, to the joint ventures set out below. Contracts are expected to be signed after completion of the mandatory standstill period. The joint ventures are as follows:


*Area South*
S1: Euston Tunnels and Approaches – SCS JV £ 740M (indicative budget for 600 / 900)
S2: Northolt Tunnels – SCS JV £ 1,100M (indicative budget for 850 / 1,400)

*Area Central*
C1: Chiltern Tunnels and Colne Valley Viaduct – Align JV £ 965M (indicative budget for 800 / 1,300)
C2: North Portal Chiltern Tunnels to Brackley – EKBF JV £ 724M (indicative budget for 800 / 1,300)
C3: Brackley to South Portal of Long Itchington Wood Green Tunnel – EKBF JV £ 616M (indicative budget for 600 / 900)

*Area North*
N1: Long Itchington Wood Green Tunnel to Delta Junction and Birmingham Spur – BBV JV £ 1,300M (indicative budget for 900 / 1,500)
N2: Delta Junction to WCML Tie-In – BBV JV £ 1,150M (indicative budget for 900 / 1,500)



> The expected total value of these contracts including both Stage 1 and Stage 2 (the full construction phase) is currently estimated to be worth £6.6 billion. Stage 2 will commence in 2019 and, along with Stage 1, is expected to support 16,000 jobs across the country. In addition, they are expected to generate 7,000 contract opportunities in the supply chain, of which around 60% are expected to go to SMEs.


Source of the amount of the civil works packages: New Civil Engineer
Source of indicative budget : HS2


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## Gusiluz

*Sections of HS2 Phase 1*

S1: 8.2 km Euston-Old Oak Common Station

S2: 25.8 km Old Oak Common Station-Harvil Road

C1: 22.0 km Harvil Road-North portal of the Chiltern tunnels near South Heath

C2: 47.6 km North portal of the Chiltern tunnels near South Heath-Northern end of the Turweston cutting near Brackley

C3: 30.1 km Northern end of the Turweston cutting near Brackley-South end of Mill Pond embankment, near Southam

N1: 30.0 km Southam-Birmingham Interchange Station-Water Orton, and 9.5 km for a branch line from Water Orton to the Birmingham Curzon Street Station

N2: 50.0 km Water Orton-Lichfield to tie-in to the West Coast Main Line.

* Total: 223.2 km*



Source: HS2 web


> Lot S1 extends from (and includes) Hampstead Road Bridge in Euston to the eastern headwall at Old Oak Common Station box, approx. 8,2 km.
> The railway in the Euston Approaches is routed from Euston High Speed Station platforms through dive under structures, requiring sequential demolition and reconstruction of highways bridges and temporary utility bridges, all in close proximity to and interfacing with existing Network Rail infrastructure.
> The Euston Tunnels extend 7,3 km from the Euston Portal at Parkway/Delancey Street, through London Borough of Camden and Brent with vent shafts located at Adelaide Road, Alexandra Place and Salusbury Road.
> A 1 km Logistics Tunnel (shield driven) is routed from the eastern end of Old Oak Common Station Box to the Atlas Road compound and includes two temporary shafts along the route. The scope also includes Atlas Road tunnel lining and logistics compound, Willesden Euroterminal Railhead and temporary bridges linking the 2.





> Lot S2 lies between the western headwall of Old Oak Common Station at approx. 9,5 km, and the western side of Harvil Road at approx. 25,8 km.
> The S2 scope includes the Victoria Road crossover box, West Ruislip portal, four ventilation shafts, 13,4 km of twin bored tunnels, 0,32 km of twin SCL tunnels and 2 shafts at Old Oak Common.
> The scope also include major bridge works at Harvil Road, West Ruislip railhead, earthworks at Copthall and Brackenbury, Copthall retained structure, miscellaneous retaining walls and bridges, large areas of sustainable placement, as well as associated utility diversions, demolitions, protective and ground treatment works.





> Lot C1 extends in a North Westerly direction from Harvil Road, North of Ickenham through to the North portal of the Chiltern tunnels near South Heath.
> The railway passes through the London Borough of Hillingdon in Greater London, Three Rivers District in Hertfordshire County, and South Bucks District and Chiltern District in Buckinghamshire County.
> The 22,0 km trace is routed on the 3,4 km long Colne Valley Viaduct, embankments, through cuttings and the 15,8 km long Chiltern Tunnel.





> Lot C2 extends from the North Portal of the Chiltern tunnels near South Heath, to the Northern end of the Turweston cutting, near Brackley.
> Passing through Bucks County, Chiltern District, Wycombe District, Aylesbury Vale, Oxford County, Cherwell District, Northants County and South Northants District Councils, the 47,6 km trace is routed on viaducts and embankments, and through cuttings.
> The route includes for a maintenance depot at Calvert and a green tunnel at Wendover.





> Lot C3 extends from the Northern end of the Turweston cutting near Brackley, to the south end of Mill Pond embankment, near Southam.
> Passing through Northants, South Northants, Warwickshire County Council and Stratford on Avon District Councils, the 30,1 km trace is routed on viaducts and embankments, and through cuttings.
> Where it passes close to the villages of Greatworth and Chipping Warden, the line is in Green tunnels.





> Lot N1 includes the line of route from the south end of Mill Pond embankment, 30 km north to Birmingham Interchange Station and from Water Orton, 9,5 km west, terminating at Curzon Street Station.
> The Mill Pond embankment to the Interchange Station section exits a twin bored tunnel and passes through undulating countryside requiring numerous cuttings, embankments, viaducts and highway diversions.
> The Birmingham Spur from Water Orton through to the New Curzon Street Station passes through a nature reserve, into tunnel in a semi-residential/urban area before threading its way above ground through Birmingham's industrial area into the city centre.
> A rolling stock maintenance depot and HS2 control centre will be located at Washwood Heath at the west end of the 2,8 km Bromford Tunnel.





> Lot N2 consists of approximately 50 km of track in a mainly rural setting, starting at the Delta Junction located to the east of Birmingham heading northwards towards Lichfield to tie-in to the West Coast Main Line.
> The Delta Junction consists of complex viaducts crossing over the M6 and M42. The route to the north of the Delta Junction consists of embankments and cuttings with several viaducts crossing natural watercourses and canals.
> The Streethay cutting, east of Lichfield, is of significant length including crossings under the West Coast Main Line and A38.
> N2 also includes both the Leeds and Manchester Spurs and a 27 line temporary railhead at Kingsbury Road.


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## TedStriker

TER200 said:


> Although sometimes there are boars or horses on the tracks, but it's very rare.
> Classic lines, even for 220 km/h, are in general not fenced.


I read your comment too quickly and thought that you had written ‘whores’. I must have got up too late. Or early. Nurse...


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## 437.001

TedStriker said:


> I read your comment too quickly and thought that you had written ‘whores’. I must have got up too late. Or early. Nurse...


Don't worry, it's the lockdown.


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## Stuu

Svartmetall said:


> Knowing the UK they'll charge a premium, frighten everyone away by having astronomical fares and then wonder why no one uses the massive capacity they built...


No they won't, they will charge whatever they can to fill the trains. No government is going to spend £100bn on a railway and not see every train as full as possible. There will of course be significant yield management in place, but I would expect there to be some genuine bargains on tickets.


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## Stuu

flierfy said:


> No, I'm not sceptical about this and here is why:
> 
> 1) Traffic on the Tokkaido shinkansen is suppressed. JR Central would probably run a lot more services if only they could.
> 2) Trainsets on the Tokkaido shinkansen provide 50% more seats than HS2 trains will
> 3) Britain is a densely populated, highly urbanised country itself with skyrocketing demand in passenger rail capacities.


To which I would also add: Tokyo, Osaka and Nagoya all have lots of other local lines for commuter traffic. The WCML between London and Birmingham carries all the commuter traffic, all the freight traffic, and all the long distance traffic. That is why it is full


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## Svartmetall

Stuu said:


> No they won't, they will charge whatever they can to fill the trains. No government is going to spend £100bn on a railway and not see every train as full as possible. There will of course be significant yield management in place, but I would expect there to be some genuine bargains on tickets.


You are talking about the British government here - the same government that is willing to break international law in the name of petty nationalism. I have no faith in these travel projections, nor the government to handle this properly. We will see who is right when it is up and running.


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## Stuu

Svartmetall said:


> You are talking about the British government here - the same government that is willing to break international law in the name of petty nationalism. I have no faith in these travel projections, nor the government to handle this properly. We will see who is right when it is up and running.


Oh I totally agree re the government today, and obviously the travel predictions are completely up in the air now. But apart from the stupid vanity project that is the Docklands cable car, I can't think of any UK public transport projects which run empty because of high fares


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## AndreiB

There is some inefficiency in the pricing model, however, with the last few peak trains being significantly emptier than the first few off peak trains on some routes. If they make HS2 reservation compulsory a la TGV (personally, I hope not), then there is the scope to employ airline style yield pricing and probably fill most seats, if/when we return to normal post Covid.


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## Svartmetall

AndreiB said:


> There is some inefficiency in the pricing model, however, with the last few peak trains being significantly emptier than the first few off peak trains on some routes. If they make HS2 reservation compulsory a la TGV (personally, I hope not), then there is the scope to employ airline style yield pricing and probably fill most seats, if/when we return to normal post Covid.


Yield management is already used for train fares in Britain though...


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## Stuu

Svartmetall said:


> Yield management is already used for train fares in Britain though...


And it will be for HS2, so there won't be empty trains because everyone has been scared off by astronomical fares, will there?


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## Svartmetall

Stuu said:


> And it will be for HS2, so there won't be empty trains because everyone has been scared off by astronomical fares, will there?


Of course, because there will also be a premium attached. I find British train fares in general far too expensive for the service we get, so I never take the trains here any more at all. I just add to the pollution now as I drive due to how expensive they are.


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## Stuu

Svartmetall said:


> Of course, because there will also be a premium attached. I find British train fares in general far too expensive for the service we get, so I never take the trains here any more at all. I just add to the pollution now as I drive due to how expensive they are.


Walk-up fares are indeed insane on many routes, but the trains are(were) very busy. Hs2 will also be busy, it is politically important that it is a success and seen to be one, so it will be priced to ensure there are no headlines about half-empty trains


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## NCT

There does seem to be a whiff of 'nobody eats at that restaurant any more because there's never a free table' about this argument ...


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## Svartmetall

NCT said:


> There does seem to be a whiff of 'nobody eats at that restaurant any more because there's never a free table' about this argument ...


Not at all on my part. We don't even know if HS2 will be successful yet of course. As for my comments about British trains being too expensive, well, if people are stupid enough to pay far too much to get far too little, that's their business, not mine.


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## AndreiB

Svartmetall said:


> Yield management is already used for train fares in Britain though...


Yes, but it’s complicated by the sharp drop between anytime/off-peak, leading to inefficiencies in loading in the shoulder peak times. If HS2 will be 100% advance tickets (reservation compulsory) it will make it easier to fill trains to the brim using yield pricing.

More broadly, it will be interesting to see what happens to train occupancy in the UK. Unlike the continent, the UK has a much higher share of long distance commuting by train, which tends to lead to very concentrated demand in a short timescale (and astronomic Anytime fares). If some of that evaporates post Covid-19, prices may moderate. If the desire is to keep it revenue neutral, some ultra-low fares may have to rise.


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## kerouac1848

France has quite a lot of long distance commuting.

I think Covid-19 has killed the rationale for HS2, which was primarily about commuter relief on the southern part of the WCML (the congested bit was between Rugby and London). Intercity travel for business purposes will also drop dramatically as travel budgets are slashed. My employer has multiple regional offices around England and one in Scotland with lots of travel between them (and to other businesses) and also I used to travel a fair bit around Europe. In future we'll have to justify why we have to travel to face-to-face meetings rather than video call into one. Only the big annual meetings will still automatically go ahead in-person. For companies I speak with it's the same, lower income means spending in areas like travel and subsistence will be cutback hugely.


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## Smooth Indian

kerouac1848 said:


> France has quite a lot of long distance commuting.
> 
> I think Covid-19 has killed the rationale for HS2, which was primarily about commuter relief on the southern part of the WCML (the congested bit was between Rugby and London). Intercity travel for business purposes will also drop dramatically as travel budgets are slashed. My employer has multiple regional offices around England and one in Scotland with lots of travel between them (and to other businesses) and also I used to travel a fair bit around Europe. In future we'll have to justify why we have to travel to face-to-face meetings rather than video call into one. Only the big annual meetings will still automatically go ahead in-person. For companies I speak with it's the same, lower income means spending in areas like travel and subsistence will be cutback hugely.


I would think the cut down in work related travel will last for a few years. Down the line the need for personal interaction for work/business and the need to travel for this purpose will increase. Secondly, if work routines are made flexible then Leisure travel will find demand. If young people don't always have to work Monday-Friday/9-5 then they will also try and maximize their leisure time and this will involve travel. COVID is temporary, HS2 will serve for several decades after COVID is gone.


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## hkskyline

* HS2 under fire over £2m polling contract with Ipsos Mori *
The Telegraph _Excerpt_
Sep 21, 2020

The public body behind Manchester-to-London rail link HS2 is spending up to £2m on polling amid widespread public opposition to the scheme.

HS2 Ltd has signed a four-year deal with pollster Ipsos Mori worth as much as £1.96m, which began earlier this month, public records show.

One industry insider said the deal was among the biggest they had ever seen for a survey from a taxpayer-backed organisation.

The contract has sparked outrage among critics of the mega-project who are already furious at its spiralling £106bn budget.

More : HS2 under fire over £2m polling contract with Ipsos Mori


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## kerouac1848

Smooth Indian said:


> I would think the cut down in work related travel will last for a few years. Down the line the need for personal interaction for work/business and the need to travel for this purpose will increase. Secondly, if work routines are made flexible then Leisure travel will find demand. If young people don't always have to work Monday-Friday/9-5 then they will also try and maximize their leisure time and this will involve travel. COVID is temporary, HS2 will serve for several decades after COVID is gone.


I don't agree. I have a lot of external meetings and while some require being face-to-face I'd say the majority don't because they're regular run-of-the-mill discussions (you know the people, the topics, etc). I don't see a return to travelling for those in most cases and all indications are there won't be, not least because there will be some years that private and public sector will need to cutback (and what better place to take an axe to then travel and substance that are no longer needed as much). We also used to have a lot travel within our organisation - i.e. someone would come down on the train from our Glasgow office to present to directors for hour before flying home. Until this year it was just considered normal to do. Now of course they have been presenting virtually and it's worked just as well, not least because there is the ability to make real time changes to documents with executives present and contributing. It's not just a question of money saved for companies - although that is significant - but also personal time for employees; in most cases people are not going to want to continue getting early trains down to London and arriving home late just so they can give an hour presentation in person.

As for leisure, I agree there is room for growth here but I cannot imagine it replacing the vast numbers who peak trains during the weekday peaks, not least because leisure time will still largely take place during weekday evenings and weekends (the couple who commuted 4-5 days a week to London and now WFH are not going to into London or other cities 4-5 evenings a week, not even close). You're talking a dramatic uplift in leisure travel that is not realistic. Trains would also have to offer competitive pricing as well compared to travelling by private car or coach/bus (both are realistic options in Britain because most inter-regional journeys are short).


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## metrogogo

Latest groundworks photos from around HS2 Curzon Street Station in Birmingham.

High Speed 2 Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed 2 Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed 2 Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed 2 Curzon Street Work by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed 2 Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed 2 Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed 2 Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed 2 Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed 2 Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr


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## K_

Svartmetall said:


> 400 m would make them as long as the N700 series trains in standard use. I really find that kind of capacity a bit high for this country. We have pretty good rail use, but nowhere near the level seen over there, yet they're talking about running more trains at a length seen over there. Aren't you sceptical that this demand would be required?


400m long trains are also common in continental Europe. The UK is certainly comparable to Germany or Italy when it comes to density and potential rail usage. 
The fact that at present such trains cannot run on most of the UK network is a big issue, and it is good that HS2 will allow such trains.


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## Svartmetall

K_ said:


> 400m long trains are also common in continental Europe. The UK is certainly comparable to Germany or Italy when it comes to density and potential rail usage.
> The fact that at present such trains cannot run on most of the UK network is a big issue, and it is good that HS2 will allow such trains.


They are not commonly run at such high frequencies of a train every few minutes on intercity lines though - more likely 2tph or 1tph, not 18tph.


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## K_

Stratford said:


>


I have an observation to make here. I see that the proposed Interchange station will have a car park and set if local bus stops on the other side of the track from the main stationbuilding. The video shows a passenger bridge across the tracks from that area to the main building so the station is accessible from both sides. It also shows overpasses to access the platform also from the main building. But why not just extend the platform access bridges across to the other side in stead? Walking distances are more than tripled for some passengers in the proposed layout.


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## geogregor

I'm sorry for linking to notorious British tabloid but the "Daily Fail" have photos of the TBMs arriving at southern portal of Chiltern Tunnel

Pictures show HS2 rail link workers have begun digging





































One warning, only check comments sections at your own risk. Because...


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## geogregor




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## geogregor

Preparations for the new HS part of Euston visible to the right of the existing station, the ugliest terminus in London:


Euston Railway Station by w_faich, on Flickr


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## geogregor

More about HS2. First contracts awarded for phase 2a, from Birmingham to Crewe:

Balfour Beatty lands first contract on HS2 phase 2a



> *Balfour Beatty has won a contract for ground investigation for phase 2a of the HS2 high speed rail project.*
> 
> And HS2 Ltd has also gone out to tender with a £50m programme of enabling works for phase 2a.
> 
> Phase 2a is the 58km section of the HS2 high speed railway than runs between Birmingham and Crewe, to link up with points northwest. While construction has now started on phase 1 (London-Birmingham), phase 2 sections to Manchester and more particularly Leeds remains subject to scepticism among commentators about when or if they might finally be delivered. Contracts being awarded on the section to Crewe shows HS2’s commitment to getting on with work.
> 
> Draft legislation to seeking powers to build operate and maintain HS2 phase 2a are currently proceeding through Parliament. Royal Assent is anticipated this winter.
> 
> HS2 has already begun a programme of ground investigation along the Birmingham-Crewe route and a package worth between £25m and 30m has been awarded to Balfour Beatty. Data from this, and previous geological investigations, will inform ongoing design development.







More tenders ongoing, for utilities and highways relocations:

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2020/11/25/hs2-opens-bidding-for-first-phase-2a-works/



> The ‘Early Civils Work – Package 2’, will be worth £50m and will be awarded through the government’s existing Construction Works and Associated Services framework.
> 
> HS2 said this would streamline the procurement process allowing a contract to be awarded in early 2021.
> 
> The works will be the first major preparatory activity to be carried out for Britain’s new high speed rail line beyond its first phase between the West Midlands and London.
> 
> The programme includes major highways works and associated utility diversions as well as a range of environmental and other surveys along the 58km route.


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## Svartmetall

geogregor said:


> Preparations for the new HS part of Euston visible to the right of the existing station, the ugliest terminus in London:
> 
> 
> Euston Railway Station by w_faich, on Flickr


Definitely the ugliest terminus station in London! I used to be disappointed that our trains always came into Euston as a kid.


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## geogregor

Another tunnel portal and TBM are taking shape on the HS2 route:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334422237332594688
https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2020/12/03/hs2-reveals-images-of-giant-midlands-dig/



> *Drone footage has revealed the scale of HS2’s largest construction site in the Midlands. *
> 
> The site in Warwickshire is being prepared for the launch of a tunnel boring machine (TBM) that will dig under Long Itchington Wood, creating a 1 mile twin bore tunnel before the route heads North and swings into Birmingham’s Curzon Street Station.
> 
> Main contractor on the job is the BBV Joint Venture of Balfour Beatty and Vinci who will be one of the biggest recruiters in the Midlands over the next two years, expecting to recruit 7,000 jobs to support the delivery of its HS2 programme of work.
> 
> There are currently 60 workers on site including student engineers and apprentices.
> Current work on the 1km sq site entails a large and deep excavation, with 250,000m3 of material being excavated in layers before being transported and deposited locally to form environmental embankments for the main line.
> 
> The 2,000 tonne tunnel boring machine, which has been manufactured in Germany by Herrenknecht, is due for delivery on site in early 2021.
> 
> It will be launched in Summer 2021 and completion of the boring will be mid 2022. The tunnel will be around 9-10 metres in diameter.
> 
> On this stretch of the route there are two tunnels being built by BBV – the other one is Bromford Tunnel. There are also 100 bridges, 35 viaducts, 36 cuttings and 70 bridge structures.
> 
> Michael ****, Managing Director of Balfour Beatty VINCI said: “In readiness for the arrival of the first tunnel boring machine, works have already commenced in earnest to prepare the Long Itchington Wood Tunnel north portal site, with our expert team and valued supply chain partners excavating 250,000m3 of material before reusing it elsewhere across the route.
> 
> “Critical to the successful delivery of Europe’s largest infrastructure project – HS2, the 2,000 tonne tunnel boring machine will set off on its journey from the portal next Summer, travelling from North to South to create the twin bore Long Itchington Wood Tunnel.”
> The TBM will take around 5 months to complete the first bore of the twin bore tunnel.
> Once the first bore is complete, the TBM will be extracted at the South Portal reception box before being transported by road back to the North Portal to commence the second bore.
> 
> A large portion of the TBM support modules will be drawn back through the bored tunnel before being positioned on the cradle for the second bore.
> Works on a Green Tunnel located south of the South Portal will commence later this year using the D-Wall rigs mobilised for the reception box.
> 
> Excavation of the reception box will be undertaken in this period with the material being stockpiled locally.


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## geogregor

All the elements of first two TBMs are now on site:



> *The first two tunnel boring machines (TBMs) for the HS2 project have now arrived in the UK, ready to start work in the new year.*
> 
> The TBMs have been made by Herrenknecht in southwest Germany. At 2,000 tonnes and 170 metres long, they were transported to the UK in more than 300 separate shipments over the course of two months.
> 
> The parts are now at the Chiltern tunnel southern portal site in west London ready to be reassembled, tested and commissioned.
> 
> The two machines – named _Florence_ and _Cecilia_ – will be digging the two bores of the 10-mile-long Chiltern tunnel. This is the longest tunnel on the HS2 project and the first to start construction. The TBMS are expected to take three years to complete their journeys through the mix of chalk and flint, progressing at an average of 15 metres a day.
> 
> Each tunnel will require 56,000 segments – which will all be made on site. A crew of 17 people will operate each TBM, working in shifts to keep the machines running 24/7. They will be supported by over 100 people on the surface, managing the logistics.
> 
> These first two TBMs will be operated by HS2 central section contractor, Align – a joint venture of Bouygues Travaux Publics, Sir Robert McAlpine, and VolkerFitzpatrick.
> 
> Align project director Daniel Altier said: “Now that the parts have arrived the detailed job of assembling and commissioning the machines has begun. There are also considerable other activities continuing on our site to prepare for the launch of _Florence_ and _Cecilia_ next year. This includes the construction of a factory that will manufacture the concrete segments to be used to line the tunnel and a slurry treatment plant that will process material from the tunnels.”
> 
> HS2 Ltd chief executive Mark Thurston said: “The launch of our first tunnelling machines will be a defining moment in the history of HS2 – and our work to deliver a high speed railway that will offer a low-carbon alternative for journeys across the UK.
> 
> “Construction is now well underway, with more than 13,000 jobs supported by the project, both directly and in our UK-wide supply chain. The arrival of _Florence_ and _Cecilia_ is a major step forward and our expert team will now work to assemble, test and commission them before their launch next year.”


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## geogregor

https://twitter.com/HS2ltd


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## Sunfuns

What's the reason for a diameter significantly bigger than Channel tunnel?


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## NCT

Channel Tunnel is actually not all that fast is it? In order to not have too big a speed differential with freights.


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## TM_Germany

Yeah, I beleive Chunnel is limited to 160km/h


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## Stuu

Sunfuns said:


> What's the reason for a diameter significantly bigger than Channel tunnel?


Aerodynamics, the tunnel is designed for 360 km/h trains, so the air needs somewhere to go. High speed tunnels are often that big - the Sierra de Guadarrama tunnels in Spain are slightly bigger at 9.5m (according to wikipedia)


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## M-NL

Given the size: Is this tunnel meant for one or two tracks? For two it seems a bit on the small side, for one a bit big.


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## TM_Germany

It's for one track. So two bores of this diameter are needed.


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## SSCreader

The diameter of the tubes is clearly surprising, as the Channel tunnel is designed to run extra large car and truck shuttles, that do not fit in the usual loading gauge. Whereas HS2 is supposed to accept trains that fit the GC gauge, which is much smaller.

On the the Tohoku shinkansen line, which is supposed to be upgraded to a 360 km/h maximum speed in the future, the longest tunnel is 9.8 m wide, but with two tracks carrying trains with a larger loading gauge at the same time. However, the Shinkansen trains are air-sealed to handle this situation.


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## dyonisien

TM_Germany said:


> Yeah, I beleive Chunnel is limited to 160km/h


Yes, the actual limitation is 160 km/h. But the tunnel is built for speeds of 250km/h.
Initially it was planned to run passenger trains at 200 km/h and shuttles at 160 km/h. Locomotives and cars of the future shuttle were tested at length, comparing four different bogies, for that speed. They were declared OK for 160.
After the mess in the finances during the building, they (=the builders, who strangely enough had a say about the speeds used by operators) decided to lower the speed of shuttles to 140 km/h. For that reason the speed of Eurostar trains was lowered to 160, to avoid to big a difference. But the tunnel itself (radii and size) would allow 250 km/h runs for trains of the continental loading gauge, the extra size serving 2 purposes.


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## M-NL

dyonisien said:


> After the mess in the finances during the building, they (=the builders, who strangely enough had a say about the speeds used by operators) decided to lower the speed of shuttles to 140 km/h.


It was probably more like 'Hey, if you run your shuttles at 140 km/h instead of 160 km/h, maintenance will be a lot cheaper.' And the operator agreed to that. If they can run at 160 km/h, the operator could have chosen to do that at any moment, but until now hasn't.
Anyway, even if the shuttles ran at 160 km/h, I don't see how you could combine that with 250 km/h or even 200 km/h Eurostars. There is just not enough distance from the terminals to the tunnel to get up to enough speed. It is not for nothing that Eurostars already need 2 train paths (or 3 train paths to run 2 Eurostars), instead of the one path a shuttle needs.


----------



## TER200

SSCreader said:


> On the the Tohoku shinkansen line, which is supposed to be upgraded to a 360 km/h maximum speed in the future, the longest tunnel is 9.8 m wide, but with two tracks carrying trains with a larger loading gauge at the same time. However, the Shinkansen trains are air-sealed to handle this situation.


It is the norm in Europe to make very wide tunnels for high-speed lines, so the trains don't have to bear too much pressure.
In Japan the tunnels are smaller, so the trains need to have better pressure-tightness and bear huge mechanical constraints. This is part of the reason why modern Shinkansens are so short-lived (less than 20 years for the Series 500).


----------



## dyonisien

M-NL said:


> [...] It is not for nothing that Eurostars already need 2 train paths (or 3 train paths to run 2 Eurostars), instead of the one path a shuttle needs.


It could equally be said that a shuttle needs 2-3 paths of a Eurostar (or whatever high speed train), since the TVM430 signalling allows for 3 minutes headways at 250 km/h (meaning 18 to 20 trains/hour at 200 km/h), but Eurotunnel, the owner of the tunnel is at the same time the operator of the shuttles, so it has the say. 
Anyway, some compromise had to be found.


----------



## TER200

And more importantly, the Shuttles are much more frequent than the Eurostars. So it's evident that the timetable is build mostly for them.


----------



## Eulanthe

I still believe that the biggest failure of the Channel Tunnel relates to the fact that it never became a 'turn up and go' type operation. The original plans for the road operation was that you could turn up, pay a reasonable amount and go without any need to pre-book or otherwise. There's evidence of this here, where the gantry signs show "Peage/Toll". Those were the original signs from when it first opened, but at some point after this, they replaced them with "Check In" instead, reflecting the fact that almost all traffic is pre-booked. 

If you look at the terminals in Folkstone and Calais, they were clearly designed for much more traffic than it currently carries. I believe there's space for at least one more track in Calais, as well as a large amount of space for additional car/lorry parking if needed. 

It's a shame, because a genuine cheap car shuttle would have transformed the Calais region. It would have meant not needing to book for a certain time, and instead people could just turn up and be given the next available departure as if it was a normal road tunnel .


----------



## NCT

I'd much rather Channel Tunnel had an all-day 4-tph service.


----------



## Eulanthe

NCT said:


> I'd much rather Channel Tunnel had an all-day 4-tph service.


This was the original plan. Four shuttles per hour during the day, with 'turn up and go' as the key benefit. Still, with Brexit looming, it is possible that there'll be a boom in duty free shopping, and as a result, fares might fall dramatically. One problem that they haven't considered is that the design of the Folkstone terminal is problematic in terms of duty free - if someone turns up and fills their car in Folkstone on the way out, then doesn't take the train, they can effectively stay in the UK (without ever crossing any controls) after having being sold large amounts of duty free items. Calais is different, as the border controls are just after check-in.


----------



## NCT

Eulanthe said:


> This was the original plan. Four shuttles per hour during the day, with 'turn up and go' as the key benefit. Still, with Brexit looming, it is possible that there'll be a boom in duty free shopping, and as a result, fares might fall dramatically. One problem that they haven't considered is that the design of the Folkstone terminal is problematic in terms of duty free - if someone turns up and fills their car in Folkstone on the way out, then doesn't take the train, they can effectively stay in the UK (without ever crossing any controls) after having being sold large amounts of duty free items. Calais is different, as the border controls are just after check-in.


Sorry, I meant passenger services from St Pancras.


----------



## Eulanthe

NCT said:


> Sorry, I meant passenger services from St Pancras.


We can but dream. The failure to even introduce metro-type services is a real shame too.


----------



## Gusiluz

Article written by me (in Spanish) on the *Geotrén *website on high speed in the UK: HS1 HS2 and the Northern Powerhouse Rail.









Alta velocidad en Reino Unido: todo sobre la HS2


Tras ver cómo los Eurostar circulaban por el Reino Unido compartiendo línea con Cercanías y mercancías, a una velocidad máxima teórica de 160 km/h, con el minúsculo gálibo Stephenson y alimentados …



www.geotren.es


----------



## Stratford

*HS2: Next phase of controversial rail network gets green light*









HS2: Next phase of controversial rail network gets green light


Legislation needed to clear the next stage of the controversial project has passed through Parliament.



www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Stratford

Phase 2a route flyover animation:


----------



## geogregor

View from the air of works in west London and at Chiltern Tunnels portal






Portal area from around 8th minute. TBMs are being assembled, drilling will start later in the year

Below another portal being prepared with first parts of the TBM arriving:









Collins completes HS2 tunnel portal preparations


Midlands-based Collins Earthworks has completed excavating the north portal site of HS2’s Long Itchington Wood tunnel.




www.theconstructionindex.co.uk







> A crew of 120 people from Collins Earthworks, have worked on the HS2 site since April 2020, excavating 300,000 cubic metres of soil, with the topsoil and subsoils stored and separated with a layer of straw, so they can be put back in the same way after the tunnel has been built.
> 
> At the busiest period there were 35 machines on site, including one of the new Cat D6 XE dozers with diesel-electric drive.
> 
> Segments of the 2,000-tonne tunnel boring machine have started arriving at the site from the manufacturer Herrenknecht in Germany, and will be reassembled ready to start drilling in the summer. It will take five months to dig the first bore of the tunnel, then it will be extracted at the south portal before being transported by road back to the north portal to start the second bore.






















And interesting article about tunneling under London which will start later.






HS2 prepares to excavate 21km route under London







www.tunneltalk.com







> Six TBMs of different diameters and through varying geological conditions in three sections will be used to excavate the 21km route of the London running tunnels of the HS2 rail project in the UK (Fig 1).
> 
> 8km x 8.8m i.d. Northolt West tunnel between West Ruislip portal and Greenpark Way ventilation shaft.
> 5.5km x 8.1m i.d. Northolt East tunnel between Greenpark Way and Old Oak Common Station.
> 7.2km x 7.5 m i.d. Euston tunnel between Old Oak Common Station and Euston Station.
> A seventh TBM will excavate a 1km x 6.1m i.d. logistics tunnel that will provide access from the main Atlas Road construction compound to Old Oak Common Station, the launch site for the Northolt East and Euston TBMs. It will be used to bring construction materials into the tunnels, including the precast concrete lining segments, and to remove muck.














> The first TBMs procured and to be launched are two Herrenknecht EBPMs to excavate the Northolt West drives, the longest of the three alignments. These will be followed by procurement of the Northolt East TBMs in early 2021 and finally of the two machines for the Euston drives in late 2021. The main TBMs will be procured new and designed specifically for the project; a refurbished TBM is likely to be used to bore the logistics tunnel with procurement underway.





> Delivery of the Northolt West Herrenknecht EPBMs is expected by the end of 2021 for start of excavation by mid-2022.


----------



## Stuu

Start date for main construction of Phase 2a (north of Birmingham to Crewe) given as Spring 2024. Work on the ground for utility diversions etc will start a lot sooner









HS2 sets construction start date to take line north | New Civil Engineer


The target date for the start of earthworks is revealed in board minutes from December but just made public. Construction of the second phase of the




www.newcivilengineer.com


----------



## NCT

A great find by Vulcan's Finest in the UK forum:



Vulcan's Finest said:


> _Construction_ - and design - of the Colne Valley viaduct is described in depth in this Rail Engineer article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Colne Valley Viaduct - HS2’s largest bridge - Rail Engineer
> 
> 
> HS2 is a massive undertaking with many huge contracts already let and underway. The largest bridge will be the Colne Valley Viaduct (CVV) – the most significant visible engineering feature on the Phase 1 route. It will carry trains at 320kph (200mph) on slab track, extending for 3.37km and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.railengineer.co.uk


----------



## bongo-anders

Why are they using different tunnel diametres.

I notice that they are smaller towards Euston, so perhaps its something to do with speed?


----------



## dysharmonica

bongo-anders said:


> Why are they using different tunnel diametres.
> 
> I notice that they are smaller towards Euston, so perhaps its something to do with speed?


that seems like a reasonable hypothesis.


----------



## NCT

Yes, the lower-speed sections have smaller diameters.


----------



## geogregor

Permanent works start at £1bn HS2 ‘super hub’ station


Piling work starts on largest train station ever built in the UK in one go




www.constructionenquirer.com







> *Now work will commence with the construction of a 1.8km long underground diaphragm wall to form the station’s ‘underground box’, where six HS2 platforms will eventually sit.*
> 
> Piling rigs will also install 160 reinforced concrete columns inside the wall to help form the box and support the structure.





> *Once complete, HS2’s Old Oak Common station will offer unrivalled connectivity from 14 new platforms.* These include six HS2 platforms, four Crossrail platforms, and four conventional rail platforms, which will be served by trains to Wales and the South West.
> 
> Following the first phase to create the 750,000m3 box, work on the eight overground platforms will begin. Over 1600 concrete piles will be installed into the ground on which the station superstructure and overground platforms will sit.


It will be the largest station built in the UK since the Victorian times.


----------



## geogregor

How will they stage the construction of Old Oak Common station:





General info:


----------



## geogregor




----------



## geogregor

Sacond TBM has launched today:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1410531142688706560








Momentum builds as HS2 launches second giant tunnelling machine


HS2 this week launched ‘Cecilia’ - the second of two enormous 2,000 tonne tunnelling machines that will excavate the ten mile long tunnels beneath the Chiltern hills just outside London. The first machine – ‘Florence’ – was launched just over a month ago.




mediacentre.hs2.org.uk


----------



## Stratford




----------



## geogregor

Photos from the HS2 tunnel site in northwest London - ianVisits


Just inside the M25 near Rickmansworth is a huge construction site - the southern portal site for the HS2 railway.Read more ›



www.ianvisits.co.uk


----------



## geogregor




----------



## 3737




----------



## geogregor

I was walking a bit in Kent recently so managed to take some shots of trains on HS1.

They are from the stretch from near Rochester, where HS1 parallels the M2 motorway:


DSC02435 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

I was slow to react to Eurostar heading to London, one distant shot:

DSC02441 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Two sets of class 395 heading to London

20210818_162205 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02498 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02499 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02502 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Another double formation, heading to Ashford and further east:

DSC02505 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02506 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02507 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

There is still limited international service. There are only three pair of trains to Paris a day, plus one pair to Brussels and one to Amsterdam. But with a bit of patience I managed to catch one Eurostar bound for the Channel Tunnel:

DSC02512 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02513 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02514 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Slightly different vista:

DSC02520 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02521 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And from another bridge, towards London:

DSC02549 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02556 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And shot towards the coast, two services passing each other:

DSC02554 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02555 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

The location is roughly in the middle of the HS1, around km 52:

DSC02550 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02552 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

In a decade or so it should be possible to take similar photos between London and Birmingham


----------



## Sunfuns

A visit to the build site of tunnels under the Chiltern hills (HS2).


----------



## The Wild Boy

I'm sorry i couldn't find the thread for the channel tunnel, so I'm gonna ask here. Didn't Germany with their ICE trains plan to run trains to London via the Channel Tunnel? I think i read somewhere that they were given the license to do so, but on the German side they didn't have such capable trains ready for a service to London?


----------



## M-NL

DB was indeed certified to run through the Channel tunnel, but wanted to wait for delivery of the ICE class 407 (the Velaro model Siemens later used as the basis for the Eurostar E320), before starting the service. By the time the class 407's were delivered and approved, they shelved the plans in 2018 for economic reasons.


----------



## Sunfuns

The first mile of tunneling under the Chilterns has been completed.


----------



## sponge_bob

Northern mayors ‘deeply concerned’ about plans to scrap long-promised rail upgrades


Leaders respond to devastating reports that new east-west line will be scaled down, while HS2 Yorkshire leg will be shelved




www.independent.co.uk


----------



## geogregor

More tunneling about to start on the HS2:


----------



## Stuu

Which is a good example of why it is costing so much money - there is no civil engineeering need for the tunnel, it is being dug to avoid damaging the woodland on top of the hill.


----------



## Sunfuns

Stuu said:


> Which is a good example of why it is costing so much money - there is no civil engineeering need for the tunnel, it is being dug to avoid damaging the woodland on top of the hill.


It is good to preserve somewhat wild nature. There is very little of it left in England already.


----------



## Stuu

Sunfuns said:


> It is good to preserve somewhat wild nature. There is very little of it left in England already.


Absolutely. I didn't mean it was a bad thing, but the costs have been questioned a lot.


----------



## Sunfuns

The other reason is that this line is built for a very high capacity and at max technologically possible running speed. That is rarely the case in continental Europe. Usually the last 10-15 km is not built at all with trains using existing infrastructure there as in London there will be two large tunnels (one to Old Oak Common and the other between it and Euston). It is the right thing to do if one can afford and existing infrastructure saturated. 

The above are objective reasons, but then you also have not so good ones. Lack of specific skills and competition, inefficient project management, expensive land and so so.


----------



## TER200

Sunfuns said:


> It is the right thing to do if one can afford and existing infrastructure saturated.


It is also necessary when the existing tracks don't offer the required loading gauge. There's still hope to use larger "captive" trains to offer more comfort or capacity on some HS2 services in the longer term. Anyway I doubt existing tracks would offer enough capacity...


----------



## jrawle

TER200 said:


> It is also necessary when the existing tracks don't offer the required loading gauge. There's still hope to use larger "captive" trains to offer more comfort or capacity on some HS2 services in the longer term. Anyway I doubt existing tracks would offer enough capacity...


Is the two types of train realistically still going to happen, though? So many of the trains are going to have to go on standard lines to get to most places, particularly if the Yorkshire branch is gone. They already need to in order to go north of Manchester, to Scotland, etc. If you have two different types of trains with different loading gauge, won't it also require some sort of technology at stations to allow either to use the platforms? There is also the inability to use the larger stock as a substitute in case of breakdowns, etc. This has always been my issue with HS2. Either it should be built as part of the existing network, or as a completely separate network, not a messy hybrid compromise. In either case, the trains need to go all the way to Edinburgh and Glasgow in order to remove the need for domestic flights.

I always like to highlight the High Speed Rail network in Taiwan. When it opened, internal flights pretty much stopped overnight. But then it was a completely new, separate line that links the biggest city in the north to that in the South. Of course, they had an extra reason for it having to be completely separate, given that the conventional rail in the country uses Japanese narrow gauge!


----------



## sponge_bob

Crewe will be the end of the HS line for many and I understand that a long...at least 250m IIRC initially...HS train is intended to split at a new platform into 2 or 3 there with sections going to EG Glasgow or Holyhead. Maybe that was only meant to be Manchester and Liverpool on HS2 track which is reputedly now canned to Liverpool.

Splitting a train would not change an axle load though, it is still the same train but shorter to deal with platform lengths beyond Crewe.

I wonder if they might have longer consists of older and lighter stock from the Birmingham interchange to Crewe and people could change train in Birmingham.. It makes no sense to run a giant consist of MK IV carriages all the way from Euston splitting at Crewe. They are rated at 200kph IIRC.

Perhaps the new Hitachi sets can be coupled to make 2 sets, anyone know? Perhaps the Hitachi bid for the HS2 rolling stock contract includes a class 801 retrofit to allow this???

It is simple if HS2 terminates at Crewe though.  All change.


----------



## Stuu

Mk IV carriages and 801s will be nowhere near hs2. They don't run anything like fast enough. The line will have an entirely new fleet of trains, the contract is to be announced soon, and Siemens are already going to court over it which means they lost.

The initial fleet of trains will all be 200m long and sized to run on the rest of the network. These will run coupled together, with some trains splitting to serve different destinations. There is absolutely no chance that people will be forced to change at Crewe. Once more capacity is needed and the route to Manchester is complete, it is possible/likely that some wider trains will be built that can only be used on hs2, but that is a long way off.

Hs2 had never included a section to Liverpool, that has always been planned to be served via the traditional route from Crewe.


----------



## jrawle

sponge_bob said:


> Crewe will be the end of the HS line for many and I understand that a long...at least 250m IIRC initially...HS train is intended to split at a new platform into 2 or 3 there with sections going to EG Glasgow or Holyhead. Maybe that was only meant to be Manchester and Liverpool on HS2 track which is reputedly now canned to Liverpool.
> 
> Splitting a train would not change an axle load though, it is still the same train but shorter to deal with platform lengths beyond Crewe.
> 
> I wonder if they might have longer consists of older and lighter stock from the Birmingham interchange to Crewe and people could change train in Birmingham.. It makes no sense to run a giant consist of MK IV carriages all the way from Euston splitting at Crewe. They are rated at 200kph IIRC.
> 
> Perhaps the new Hitachi sets can be coupled to make 2 sets, anyone know? Perhaps the Hitachi bid for the HS2 rolling stock contract includes a class 801 retrofit to allow this???
> 
> It is simple if HS2 terminates at Crewe though.  All change.


I'm no expert, but I believe continental loading gauge means more than just longer trains. They are slightly wider, so provide more comfort, and taller, even allowing double deck trains. It's also to do with the length of the individual carriages in order to get around curves on the track. If you have wider trains, you need a bigger gap between platforms, and that presumably means a folding step on either the platform or a classic carriage to bridge the gap, or a separate platform completely. The floor of the carriage is probably also higher. French trains always seem very high up, for example. That's also an issue if you use the same platform for both types of train.


----------



## TER200

Floor height will be the same for HS2 classic-compatible and hypothetical captive trains, there's no need to create a hassle for that (however, IIRC they wil be higher than the current platforms, to provide a completely flat floor). For the width difference, the gap can be filled with a smell retractable step, like all high-speed trains have anyway (in most continental Europe the platforms are much lower than in the UK so steps are needed).
The cars can be longer, but I think platform edge doors will be installed so the door placement must be the same across all HS2 fleet.
For the train's length, HS2 sets will be 200 m long and run in double between the (not many) stations that can fit this. For most of their classic network running, they'll be only as single sets, thus having a lower capacity after being splitted (or before being joined) than the current ~ 250 m long trains run on some services.


----------



## M-NL

Build the infrastructure for the continental loading gauge, but construct platforms for the UK gauge, with the option to convert to continental.
Platform doors can be constructed in multiple ways. If you put them roughly a meter from the platform edge, door placement can still be anywhere.
What is intended to happen with the split trains? Is the split-off section left behind of running somewhere else? If you can run 400 m trains on the HS, but only 250 m on the conventional sections, then have 10 car (~250 m) and 6 car (~150 m) HST's. If you design them right you can take out 2 of the 10 cars later and use them to make 8 car trains out of the 6 car trains.


----------



## sponge_bob

Are hs2 trains not to have a higher axle load than the 801s do or will the first hs2 rolling stock contract use the traditional max axle load in the UK with 'heavier' ones maybe in future?


----------



## Stuu

sponge_bob said:


> Are hs2 trains not to have a higher axle load than the 801s do or will the first hs2 rolling stock contract use the traditional max axle load in the UK with 'heavier' ones maybe in future?


I think you must have the wrong idea here. Axle load doesn't really come into it for high speed trains, Class 800s are only around 15 tonnes even with their diesel engines. Nothing close to a freight train... lighter is better


----------



## Stuu

M-NL said:


> Build the infrastructure for the continental loading gauge, but construct platforms for the UK gauge, with the option to convert to continental.
> Platform doors can be constructed in multiple ways. If you put them roughly a meter from the platform edge, door placement can still be anywhere.
> What is intended to happen with the split trains? Is the split-off section left behind of running somewhere else? If you can run 400 m trains on the HS, but only 250 m on the conventional sections, then have 10 car (~250 m) and 6 car (~150 m) HST's. If you design them right you can take out 2 of the 10 cars later and use them to make 8 car trains out of the 6 car trains.


The platforms are to be built for the larger loading gauge but they will be much higher than in Europe, and the rest of the UK network, being 1100mm high. This means boarding will be completely level. At that height there is only 100mm extra width on each side between UK loading gauge and the chosen UIC gauge (GB+ I think). The big difference between UK and continental sized gauges is the UK gauge is much narrower below floor level.

Trains are going to be 200m long sets... the full specification requirements are here. I don't think any final decision has been made about platform edge doors, but they must be compatible with them


----------



## sotonsi

M-NL said:


> If you can run 400 m trains on the HS, but only 250 m on the conventional sections, then have 10 car (~250 m) and 6 car (~150 m) HST's. If you design them right you can take out 2 of the 10 cars later and use them to make 8 car trains out of the 6 car trains.


The full service pattern has a lot of trains on the classic network splitting/joining. 5 of the 9tph out of Euston going onto the classic network will leave Euston as 400m sets that split.

There's no way that 150m trains would be acceptable at any destination. So 2*200m trains it is.

There is a question of whether there could be a 250m sub-fleet for the services that don't split, but the initial talk of that has been shelved for now, just as the talk of bilevels and such has been.


----------



## TER200

15 tonnes per axle is very OK for a high-speed train, the generally admitted maximum is 17 T.


----------



## sponge_bob

Are the west coast line Pendolinos built to a continental loading guage by any chance??


----------



## 33Hz

No


----------



## sponge_bob

Carlisle - HS2







www.hs2.org.uk







> * some services south of Carlisle will run as 400m long trains*, w*hile services running north, to Edinburgh and Glasgow, will be 200m long trains.* This means we need to make changes at the station to accommodate longer trains, split northbound trains to make them 200m, and join southbound trains back together to make them 400m. To achieve this, we intend to extend platforms 3 and 4


----------



## geogregor

Simple innovation which can make a difference:









HS2 | Old Oak Common contractors look at Euston’s award-winning piling innovation for Europe’s longest D-wall | New Civil Engineer


SCS, formed from Skanska, Costain and Strabag, developed the innovative approach to remove excess concrete from the top of the pile length while still wet




www.newcivilengineer.com







> The ‘zero trim’ pile technique deployed at High Speed 2’s (HS2) Euston approaches site is being considered for the construction of Old Oak Common’s record-breaking diaphragm wall.
> 
> *SCS, formed from Skanska, Costain and Strabag, developed the innovative approach to remove excess concrete from the top of the pile length while still wet rather than using the conventional approach of breaking down the pile once the concrete is cured.
> 
> It involves the use of a vacuum excavator to create accurate pile lengths and has been lauded for its ability to cut costs, reduce risks and improve sustainability for the wider industry.*
> 
> On a recent site visit to Euston, SCS site superintendent Lee Piper told _NCE_ that he was meeting with counterparts from the Balfour Beatty Vinci Systra JV (BBVS) to discuss how the innovation could be used at Old Oak Common.
> 
> In particular, Piper said that BBVS was interested in using the technique on the construction of the 1.8km-long underground diaphragm wall; which is believed to be Europe’s longest such structure when built.
> 
> “What we are doing here is small fry compared to what could be done at Old Oak Common,” Piper said. “It’s great to see other contractors take an interest and it shows the legacy that HS2 is going to leave in terms of innovation and collaboration.”
> 
> 
> At the Euston approaches site around 2,000 piles will be installed over the next three years. Around 300 are already in the ground, with the SCS team planning to use the zero trim technique on all but 15 piles; where site restrictions don’t allow it to be deployed.
> 
> It is estimated that use of the technique will save around 60,000 hours of work at Euston.
> 
> Piper identified the opportunity to test the technique on HS2 and worked with Cementation Skanska project director Deon Louw to develop the solution with Hercules Site Services for use of HS2’s Euston approaches site.
> 
> The ‘zero trim pile technique’ involves sucking out excess concrete while still wet using a new vacuum excavator technique.
> 
> Traditionally in piling, concrete is overpoured and then workers have to break out the excess concrete. This can cause a lot of health problems, including hand-arm vibration syndrome, hearing loss and silicosis.
> 
> 
> By removing the need to break out excess concrete, this new approach is deemed to be safer for workers, and also reduces the manhours involved in complex piling work.
> 
> Piper added: “I have worked in the construction sector for over 20 years, and the same piling techniques have been used throughout that time. Working with colleagues I saw an opportunity to try a new approach and was supported to do so by HS2.
> 
> “This technique could be transformational for the construction sector, reducing the health risk that results from breaking piles. The additional benefits of noise reduction, time and carbon savings mean the technique should be attractive for the whole sector to use going forward.”





> Old Oak Common’s 1.8km long underground diaphragm wall will be built around what will become the station’s ‘underground box’, where six HS2 platforms will be constructed to accommodate trains serving the Midlands and the North.
> 
> *When complete it will be the largest sub-surface station in the UK, with a box structure 850m long, 70m wide and 20m deep. It will also be the largest station ever built in the UK as a single project.*


Old Oak Common station is being built here:

https://twitter.com/HS2ltd


----------



## geogregor

And update from Euston:









Inside HS2's huge Euston construction site - ianVisits


In about a decade, the first HS2 train will arrive at London Euston station, and right now a huge construction site is preparing for that moment, with a chance last week to go and see what is happening.Read more ›



www.ianvisits.co.uk





Tunnel portals will be here, looking towards Old Oak Common and Birmingham:









10 HS platforms will be build somewhere here:









And here they will enlarge the underground station, to cope with all the extra passengers:


----------



## geogregor

Some report from this increasingly impressive construction project:









HS2’s longest tunnels head north - Rail Engineer


In issue 190 we described HS2’s 3.37km Colne Valley Viaduct. Immediately to the north of this will be another of the project’s mammoth structures, the twin 16km long, 9.1 metre diameter Chiltern Tunnels, passing beneath Chalfont St Peter, Chalfont St Giles, Amersham and Little Missenden. These...




www.railengineer.co.uk







> *In issue 190 we described HS2’s 3.37km Colne Valley Viaduct. Immediately to the north of this will be another of the project’s mammoth structures, the twin 16km long, 9.1 metre diameter Chiltern Tunnels, passing beneath Chalfont St Peter, Chalfont St Giles, Amersham and Little Missenden. These will be the longest of the 130km of tunnels to be built during HS2 Phase 1. These are currently being built by Align, a joint venture formed of three international infrastructure companies: Bouygues Travaux Publics, Sir Robert McAlpine, and VolkerFitzpatrick.*
> 
> The tunnel alignment was based on extensive ground investigation during the early preparatory works for HS2 and was designed to pass through the chalk strata, up to 90 metres deep, beneath the Chiltern Hills. Designed specifically for the ‘chalk with flints’ that they will encounter, the two identical Tunnel Boring Machines (TBM) will dig the tunnels for north and southbound trains.
> 
> *On site manufacture of tunnel lining segments*
> 
> Align’s Chalfont Lane site will be the biggest construction site on the HS2 project and includes pre-casting factories for both the Chiltern Tunnels and Colne Valley Viaduct. David Andrews, the Tunnel Precast Manager, explained that many projects set up fabrication facilities in sub-optimal existing buildings that do not usually have the space required for the scope of works. For the huge scale of this project, Align, along with their shed supplier, Caunton Engineering, have designed and built a huge factory, bespoke to the needs of the production, storage and logistics activities of the production operations. The large-scale U-shaped segment factory is located alongside the viaduct precast factory but is operated independently.
> 
> Concrete for the production facility is batched on site in a large-scale, purpose-built batching plant, positioned between the two factories. Tarmac are Align’s concrete supply partner for this project, selected on their track record of supporting complex infrastructure projects of this scale. Segments use high-grade stainless steel-fibre reinforcement which offers greater ductility and cost savings for reinforcement work. Where cross passages and shafts will be cut through the rings, and in fault zones, segments also include steel rebar reinforcement. Each of the ring’s seven segments are slightly different to allow them to tightly lock together and their orientation can be adjusted during installation to allow slight curvature or corrections.
> 
> The factory includes two semi-automated production lines, with each line containing 49 segment moulds (seven complete rings) cast in a predetermined order. Each factory is planned to cast 49 segments in each shift, or about one every 11 minutes. At two metres width per ring of seven segments, this equates to the needs of a day’s tunnelling.
> 
> Robots are used to undertake the repetitive tasks of cleaning the segment moulds prior to the concrete being added and for the final finishing of the concrete surface, minimising human intervention, and improving the quality and consistency of the final product. Segments are then cured in an oven area for six to seven hours. On completion of curing, the segments are stored in adjacent pre-storage carousels in stacks of four and three, to continue the curing process. The next day, the stacks are transferred out to the external storage yard, beneath large travelling gantries, to await their journey into the tunnel. Production started three months ahead of the first TBM launch in May, in order to build up a stock of 1,900 rings, ensuring that the TBMs will never be short of segments to place.
> 
> *Florence and Cecilia*
> 
> TBMs are always designed to cope with the geology and hydrology of the tunnel alignment. The TBMs here were specified by Align, working closely with manufacturer Herrenknecht to design the two identical 170-metre-long machines specifically for the Chiltern Tunnels. Proactive collaboration led to the inclusion of innovative features into the design, facilitated by Align’s Underground Construction Director, Didier Jacques’s, long experience in tunnelling and work with Herrenknecht on previous projects.
> 
> Built, assembled and tested at its factory in south-west Germany, these were transported to site in more than 300 shipments during 2020, before being reassembled, re-tested and commissioned at the tunnel’s south portal launch site. The six different gantries for each TBM were assembled on site and then transported to the south portal TBM Slab, where they run on rails until they enter the tunnel. Once inside the tunnel the TBMs run on rollers on the inner side of the tunnel. Herrenknecht’s engineers will remain on site for some time to ensure that all systems are working correctly and to learn from its performance in service.
> 
> Traditionally, TBMs are given women’s names in honour of Saint Barbara, the patron saint of miners. Here they are named Florence and Cecilia, suggested by students at the local Meadow High School and The Chalfonts Community College and chosen after a public vote. The names celebrate Florence Nightingale and the astronomer and astrophysicist, Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin.
> 
> Shannon O’Keeffe, Align’s TBM Manager, described the layout and functions of the underground factory that make up the TBM. Each is controlled by a crew of 17, led by the shift foreman, the TBM pilot and TBM engineer, supported by miners and the mechanical / electrical teams. An additional crew supports them, with another 30 people involved in bringing segments down the tunnel, grouting and other support roles. These are a mix of Align employees and specialist tunnel labour supplied by TG Tunnelling.
> 
> The TBM is made up of six back-up gantries, and the shield which consists of the cutterhead, ring building area and slurry circuit. The TBMs are a variable density type which constantly maintains pressure to the ground whilst excavating using slurry water. A manlock behind the cutter head in the shield allows for access into the pressurised head for maintenance and repair. The ground is excavated by the rotating cutterhead and the excavated material is transported through a screw conveyor, which then discharges into a slurry mixing box where additional water can be added to assist in pumping the slurry and excavated material back to the portal, at up to 1250m3/hr. The sound of excavated flint rattling in the discharge piping reminds the crew that the flow is working and the TBM is mining.
> 
> As with traditional TBMs, each ring is excavated and then installed sequentially. The segment erector picks each of the seven segments that form a tunnel ring from the segment feeder, rotates them to the required orientation and installs them into position against the previous ring. Currently, this installation operation is manually controlled but testing on an innovative automatic system is underway. An additional part of this new technology is the ability to continuously excavate and install segments as TBMs advance forward. This is achieved by adjusting the thrust of the TBM, pushing more or less on different segments in each ring thereby allowing a segment to be installed as the TBMs continue to move forward without affecting the tunnel alignment. As the TBMs advance, the annulus behind the rings is sealed with cementitious grout batched on the TBM.
> 
> Behind the control room on the TBM gantries are the hydraulic pumps, electrical switches, transformers, and the batching plant as well as welfare facilities for the tunnel teams. There are also two refuge chambers which can be operated in case of any emergency. These can independently provide breathable air for up to 24 hours if the crew cannot evacuate the TBM or tunnel.
> 
> Each of the 8.5 tonne segments are brought into the tunnel by multi-service vehicles. These are double cabbed as they cannot be turned within the tunnel and allows for the operator to always face the direction of driving. The vehicles drive into the rear of the TBM and segments are unloaded by the quick unloader, then lifted by the segment crane onto the segment feeder to the installation area. The stacks of these include timber packings. To avoid the risk of human entry into the moving and lifting of segments, another robotic unit removes these automatically, this being one of the most impressive innovations applied to these TBM. This same robotic arm then also inserts the jointing dowels into the segments before they are placed onto the feeder ready for installation.
> 
> To provide a roadway for the multi-service vehicles, and as the base for future slab track, the curved bottom of the tunnels is filled with concrete to form a flat surface. A moveable steel bridge unit is used above the wet concrete enabling vehicles to drive over to feed the TBM. The TBMs are powered by a 22kV power supply, fed from the National Grid and sourced from renewable energy only. As the TBM proceeds, every 300 metres a new section of power feeder cable is inserted, along with extensions to cooling water, slurry, ventilation, communication and other supporting utilities.
> 
> Florence launched in May with Cecilia following in June. Despite starting second, Cecilia will run slightly faster, aided by geological data and experience fed back from Florence, meaning that both machines are due to break through at the north portal around the same time. Although relatively early into the programme, the teams have already achieved a production peak of 24 metres per day, achieved whilst passing under the M25 where the team were keen to get beyond the highway’s zone of influence as quickly as possible. This faster operation, whilst impressive, can result in greater wear and tear, so the teams are planning an average 15 metres per day for the remainder of the project.
> 
> *Using tunnel slurry to form new chalk grassland*
> 
> Much of the 3 million m3 of chalk excavated from the tunnels will be used for landscaping at the south portal site once construction is complete. The ‘Colne Valley Western Slopes’ project will see the construction site transformed into chalk grassland which is lime-rich, thin soil, low in nutrients. This new grassland will attract a huge variety of plants: up to 40 species per square metre including some of the UK’s rarest orchids and invertebrates. The new habitat of 127ha will provide a huge increase on the existing 700ha within the Chilterns AONB.
> 
> Excavated chalk is being pumped from the tunnels as a slurry. First, this is passed through a trommel screen to collect granular material leaving suspended particles and water. This is then put through filter presses that squeeze out water, leaving chalk cake. The water is returned to the tunnel for further uses, and the solids stored in stockpiles.
> 
> *Vent shafts*
> 
> Every 2-3km along the tunnel, a vent shaft will be constructed. These will provide for air movement in the tunnel, smoke extraction in the event of fire, as well as to provide maintenance and emergency service access.
> 
> The first of these is under construction at Chalfont St Peter. It is of 17 metres diameter and 67 metres deep. The shaft’s concrete walls are formed of 16 diaphragm panels. When complete it will include a headhouse inspired by nearby agricultural architecture to help it fit into the surrounding landscape. The shaft is located centrally between the two tunnels and will contain the fans and emergency access stairs. The TBMs are expected to pass it during early 2022.
> 
> It will be 2024 before these tunnels are complete, but already the massive scale of the project and the innovative aspects of its design and construction are clear, setting standards for future projects.















































HS2’s Euston site constraints are there for all to see | New Civil Engineer


It will eventually become the London terminus, with 10 dedicated HS2 platforms – having recently been scaled back from the originally-planned 11 platform




www.newcivilengineer.com





About new Euston construction. It is first time I read that they will use "top-down" method of construction:



> The HS2 platforms themselves will be 8m below ground level and will sit in a box that’s 90m wide and 500m long.
> 
> Contractors are a good way through the installation of thick concrete walls around the edges of the site that will support the ground as they dig down to where the platforms will be. A standard top-down construction will then take contractors to platform level where the main supporting concrete slab will be poured. The platforms and station will then be built above this slab, while contractors then dig underneath to create a basement need to house station utilities.


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## sponge_bob

This would be what was sometimes called HS3 connecting east-west in the north and with a long pennine base tunnel mentioned. HS2b is gone as well. 









Northern Powerhouse Rail isn’t being cut back – it’s being cancelled


Analysis: The project was supposed to deliver a new line between Manchester and Leeds




www.independent.co.uk






> Now, with an announcement looming on Thursday, it seems that the cuts have gone further, and the new line has been effectively scrapped.
> 
> NPR was first announced by George Osborne in 2017 – when he branded it "HS3", the logical next step after HS2. The plan was for a new high speed line running east-west across the North, connecting Manchester with Leeds.


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## AttikoMetro

sponge_bob said:


> This would be what was sometimes called HS3 connecting east-west in the north and with a long pennine base tunnel mentioned. HS2b is gone as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Northern Powerhouse Rail isn’t being cut back – it’s being cancelled
> 
> 
> Analysis: The project was supposed to deliver a new line between Manchester and Leeds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk


So much for "levelling up" the north  . I just don't understand why all this money is being spent building ginormous terminus stations in London and Birmingham, the funds could have been used to pay for HS2 and HS3. No one builds terminus stations anymore, except Britain for some reason.


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## NCT

AttikoMetro said:


> So much for "levelling up" the north  . I just don't understand why all this money is being spent building ginormous terminus stations in London and Birmingham, the funds could have been used to pay for HS2 and HS3. No one builds terminus stations anymore, except Britain for some reason.


False choice.

There is no existing platform capacity for the additional services. Terminus stations on the surface on edge of city centre sites are cheaper than underground through ones with double throats with no operational value.


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## AttikoMetro

NCT said:


> False choice.
> 
> There is no existing platform capacity for the additional services. Terminus stations on the surface on edge of city centre sites are cheaper than underground through ones with double throats with no operational value.


Then why aren't Japan, China, Thailand, or other european countries , building new terminal stations, but passing stations? it's pretty much a fact that stations with through tracks create more capactiy than terminuses with stub ends. I don't see why something like Curzon Street needs to be built when a through running station with less tracks could do the job. HS2 is ridiculously overbuilt and that's not up for discussion. Here in France, something like the Chiltern tunnels would have been replaced by a combination of earthworks and viaducts.


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## M-NL

They are building passing station, because it makes more sense there and they have the space for it.
But terminal stations are not necessarily bad. Tokyo station is a terminus for all Shinkansen lines, yet both JR Central and JR East manage to get trains turned around in minutes. Even in Germany (I think it was Munich) they now require trains that can switch direction quickly to limit platform occupancy time. It is just a matter of evacuating an arriving train as quickly as possible to increase boarding time and having a new crew already standby when the train arrives.
In the end you operation practice is more important then the type of station.


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## Stuu

AttikoMetro said:


> Then why aren't Japan, China, Thailand, or other european countries , building new terminal stations, but passing stations? it's pretty much a fact that stations with through tracks create more capactiy than terminuses with stub ends. I don't see why something like Curzon Street needs to be built when a through running station with less tracks could do the job. HS2 is ridiculously overbuilt and that's not up for discussion. Here in France, something like the Chiltern tunnels would have been replaced by a combination of earthworks and viaducts.


Hs2 has been designed, rightly or wrongly, to be a relatively closed system. Services start and finish at Curzon Street, they do not run through to avoid the need for a tunnel under Birmingham and to keep the service reliable by not having the possibility of delays on the very congested lines causing delays to HS2. It's a pragmatic decision based on the geography of Birmingham. China generally builds it's new HSR stations outside cities, not right in the city centre. In the Chinese model, Birmingham Interchange would have been the main station for Birmingham and the branch to Curzon Street wouldn't exist.

The Chilterns are a protected landscape, there wasn't very much choice but to go through there so it had to be mitigated. There is no need from an engineering point of view, but other high speed lines have done the same thing - the Netherlands built a section of tunnel between Schiphol and Rotterdam to protect the landscape, Germany and Austria have done the same.


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## sponge_bob

Stuu said:


> . *China generally builds it's new HSR stations outside cities*, not right in the city centre. In the Chinese model, Birmingham Interchange would have been the main station for Birmingham and the branch to Curzon Street wouldn't exist.


This is spot on. The Interchange would be called "Birmingham East" in the Chinese model and they would have a Birmingham Metro station underneath to bring you into the city proper.


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## sotonsi

AttikoMetro said:


> I don't see why something like Curzon Street needs to be built when a through running station with less tracks could do the job. HS2 is ridiculously overbuilt and that's not up for discussion. Here in France...


One the key shapers of the HS2 network was the French TGV network and its operations of having most cities being on branches, with parkway stations allowing through trains to stop in the area.

Birmingham is the same sort of thing as Lyon - a new station built for the high speed trains, a parkway station on the bypass route, trains serving the centre don't run through on the High Speed Line and instead you have 3 separate North-Centre, South-Centre and North-Bypass-South services.


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## sotonsi

Crossrail onto the WCML slow lines* would have made some difference during the rebuild for HS2, and helped relieve Euston tube (which would need it post-HS2), while at the same time it allowed increased frequency and direct service to the places the passengers want to go that Euston is slightly too far north for.

But even all those benefits weren't enough to justify the short link's costs. The amount of traffic removed from Euston was too small to be a meaningful enough difference, and there wasn't anywhere near as much of a boon taking over a decent electric service to a rather well-sited terminus as there was with the Reading route.

*taking over both the Trings and the semi-stops to MK. And the Southern? It was, after all, a Network Rail plan, rather than TfL (though TfL did like that they'd have a cash cow route serving out-of-towners that they could milk without their politicians losing votes).


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## NCT

Crossrail shouldn't grow too many tentacles, especially have branches where it is the minority operator. Not worth buggering up performance.


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## sotonsi

NCT said:


> Crossrail shouldn't grow too many tentacles, especially have branches where it is the minority operator. Not worth buggering up performance.


It wouldn't have been a minority operator on the WCML slows (any more than the GEML and GWML), but that ship has long sailed anyway.

And, while turning around trains at Paddington is a relative waste of capacity, turning them around at OOC isn't.


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## 33Hz

Stuu said:


> Crossrail could only really take the Tring locals


Why?



TER200 said:


> So serious it was quickly and definitely forgotten...


Serious in that it came from SNCF top management rather than the dreams of some forumers, but the rationale was the same.

I've also seen it in more recent official plans as a long term project, but I'm not going to start googling French documents again just to find that.


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## Stuu

33Hz said:


> Why?


Because they are the all-stops services which is the Crossrail operating model. Crossrail's metro-style trains aren't really appropriate for journeys of an hour or more, which going past Tring is


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## 33Hz

Stuu said:


> Because they are the all-stops services which is the Crossrail operating model. Crossrail's metro-style trains aren't really appropriate for journeys of an hour or more, which going past Tring is


An all-stops from Paddington to Reading takes an hour. How is this different?


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## sotonsi

Stuu said:


> Because they are the all-stops services which is the Crossrail operating model.


Which is why only 1-in-3 Liz trains passing through Acton Main Line will stop (and 1-in-2 at Hanwell) and there's a peak-only semi-fast service to Reading that skips a lot of stops?

The service patterns were, pre-COVID, something like:

Euston-Tring (2tph)Euston-Milton Keynes (2tph, 1 extending beyond)East Croydon-Milton Keynes (1tph)Wembley CentralHarrow & WealdstoneHarrow & WealdstoneBusheyWatford JunctionWatford JunctionWatford JunctionKings LangleyApsleyHemel HempsteadHemel HempsteadHemel HempsteadBerkhamstedBerkhamstedBerkhamstedTringTring (1tph)TringCheddington (1tph)Leighton BuzzardLeighton BuzzardBletchleyBletchleyMilton KeynesMilton Keynes

While this would be changed with Crossrail service, the skipping 4 stops south of Hemel is not too dissimilar to what was proposed for the Crossrail Reading service inside London at the time Milton Keynes was proposed. Anything going west of West Drayton would skip all stops between Hayes & Harlington and Paddington, save Ealing Broadway, until recently - when Southall and West Ealing stops were added to them (save the peak semi-fast). Acton and Hanwell are still skipped by them (and the Terminal 5 trains still will skip Acton Main Line, having gained a Hanwell stop in that revision of the future timetable).


> Crossrail's metro-style trains aren't really appropriate for journeys of an hour or more, which going past Tring is


Leighton Buzzard and north has fast trains that move to the slows. Just like Maidenhead and west has (in the peak).

And just like the Thames Valley, the slower trains aren't there for the terminus-London flows but intermediate stops-terminus flows. You won't take it between MK and London.

The issues with the distance are more having trains that are run by TfL but run fast through the Greater London suburbs and primarily serve non-London places (OK, there's the precedence of Met fasts). There's only Wembley Central and Harrow & Wealdstone as stops within Greater London (and the Trings only provide a token Wembley service) on this branch. The only thing for TfL's benefit of this idea (which was Network Rail's) was the fare income, but there would have been a lot of politics for TfL to deal with.

----

But it's all moot - the driving reason for a WCML link to Crossrail was aiding the HS2 rebuild of the station. The full rebuild is cancelled and the works at the station have begun. The case wasn't there even with that added benefit - the case is weaker now.

We ought to get back on topic!


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## geogregor

Another TBM started work on HS2:









BBV launches Long Itchington TBM


Balfour Beatty Vinci joint venture has begun tunnelling under Long Itchington Wood in Warwickshire for the HS2 project.




www.theconstructionindex.co.uk







> The one-mile Long Itchington Wood tunnel will be the first will be the first HS2 tunnel to be completed on the project.
> 
> Tunnel boring machine (TBM) Dorothy, one of 10 TBMS on the HS2 project between London and Birmingham, is expected to break through her first bore at the south portal in spring 2022. She will then be disassembled and taken back to the north portal to dig the second bore, which is due to be completed in early 2023.
> 
> Dorothy weighs 2,000 tonnes and is 125 metres long. She will remove 250,000 cubic metres of mudstone and soil, which will be transported to an on-site slurry treatment plant where material is separated before being reused on embankments and landscaping along the route.


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## geogregor

And video on the subject:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466814927629398039


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## mw123




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## thebeatlesalways123

who will make this rolling stock ? japan or france ?


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## Stratford

thebeatlesalways123 said:


> who will make this rolling stock ? japan or france ?


Will be made in the UK.









Government awards HS2 rolling stock contract


Next generation of Britain’s high-speed bullet trains reaching speeds of over 200mph to be built on home soil.




www.gov.uk










Press Releases | Rail Company News & Information | Hitachi Rail | Hitachi Rail


See all press releases by Hitachi Rail, covering rolling stock information, supplier and contract procurement news, and a media library for press use.




www.hitachirail.com


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## geogregor

thebeatlesalways123 said:


> who will make this rolling stock ? japan or france ?


Joint venture between Hitachi and Alstom, trains will be produced in Britain.


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## geogregor

Some nice aerial shots of HS2 construction the Birmingham area:

https://twitter.com/360photosurvey 
Here will be Birmingham Interchange station, close to the airport:









And here site of future Curzon Street Station, right in the centre:


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## Aim9X

geogregor said:


> Joint venture between Hitachi and Alstom, trains will be produced in Britain.


You can also expect some work in Italy probably, since Hitachi has a pretty large footprint there.


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## geogregor

Aim9X said:


> You can also expect some work in Italy probably, since Hitachi has a pretty large footprint there.


Well, there will be whole global supply chain so absolutely, Italy might be involved.


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## TER200

thebeatlesalways123 said:


> who will make this rolling stock ? japan or france ?


There's nothing french here, it's the former Bombardier part which is involved.
However, if most of the building will be done in British plants, I don't know where the engineering is from.


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## boss-ton

mw123 said:


>


I like how they look like elizabeth line trains that were turned into high speed trains.


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## NCT

Hmmm, looks like there's only one door per carriage, which screams 'dwell time issues'. They found the IETs (the Class 800s) had bigger dwell time problems than the HSTs / 225s they replaced, because there were two doors every 26 metres in the new trains as opposed to every 23 metres in the trains they replaced.

For a system that depends on 2-minute dwells at intermediate stations, especially Old Oak Common, I can't help but think they've designed in a significant performance risk (unless the door positions are purely illustrative).


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## TER200

You're right... some cars of the german ICE3 have only one door, and it slows down stops at busy intermediate stations (especially when everyone is looking for their reserved seat, when most people don't have a reserved seat it may be faster).


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## TokyoImperialPalace

delete


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## K_

M-NL said:


> If you put it like that wouldn't it have made more sense to built a 'MCML' (Middle of the Country Main Line) for 125 mph or 140 mph (with ETCS) operation instead? Such a line could be used by all existing trains and, if fitted with ETCS, actually use the 140 mph capability of the class 80x trains. I have actually always wondered how much such lines would be cheaper. Could you build a new four track main line for the same price as a two track high speed line? I mean, the only difference is that at lower speeds curves with a tighter radius can be used and less sound reduction measures are needed. But that's about it. In both cases you need tracks, tunnels, switches, signaling, protection systems and OHLE.


In a way HS2 is the "Middle of the Country Main Line". Just built to 200kph+ standard. As pointed out, building to high speed standards doesn't make it that much more expensive. The Swiss did the same with the Mattstetten - Rothrist new line, which is build for 300kph as well, in case in the future it becomes part of a longer HSL.


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## geogregor

More TBMs are getting ready:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479392369157890057


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## thewheel

I noticed this hasn't been mentioned here yet.

The Crewe to Manchester bill is now before parliament. This will give powers to create the line extension to Manchester with two new stations. A 4-platform station at Manchester Airport and a 6-platform station beside Manchester Piccadilly, serving both HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail.









Crewe to Manchester - HS2


The high-speed rail network will be extended from Crewe to Manchester, serving new stations at Manchester Airport (subject to third party funding) and Manchester Piccadilly.




www.hs2.org.uk





Manchester Airport


























Manchester Piccadilly






























And if you need to go to sleep, here is a long-winded video about it.


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## Stuu

Someone else's drone footage of construction going on south of Coventry. About halfway there is the start of construction of the cut and cover tunnel which will mitigate the effects of the line on the small village it passes through - the route follows an abandoned railway. There are some other similar videos on the channel


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## Wallarch

thewheel said:


> Noticed this hasn't been mentioned here yet.
> 
> The Crewe to Manchester bill is now before parliament. This will give powers to create the line extension to Manchester with two new stations. A 4-platform station at Manchester Airport and a 6-platform station beside Manchester Piccadilly, serving both HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crewe to Manchester - HS2
> 
> 
> The high-speed rail network will be extended from Crewe to Manchester, serving new stations at Manchester Airport (subject to third party funding) and Manchester Piccadilly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hs2.org.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manchester Airport
> 
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> 
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> Manchester Piccadilly
> 
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> 
> And if you need to go to sleep, here is a long-winded video about it.


I thought Phase 2B also includes the extension to East Midlands Parkway. Does the bill include that segment or has it been axed?


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## Stuu

Wallarch said:


> I thought Phase 2B also includes the extension to East Midlands Parkway. Does the bill include that segment or has it been axed?


No, that's now been pushed back. It may be short enough that it can go through a different (quicker) authorisation process


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## geogregor




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## geogregor




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## geogregor

Some seriously big construction...









Diaphragm walls: Constructing HS2's Old Oak Common station | Ground Engineering (GE)


The scale of High Speed 2’s (HS2’s) Old Oak Common (OOC) station in west London is dizzying. Spread across 15ha of a former Great Western Railways depot




www.geplus.co.uk







> *Diaphragm wall*
> Initial work on the station box has focused on the construction of a diaphragm wall measuring more than 1.8km long around the site. The team is working at the east and the west sections of the site, with much of the diaphragm wall work happening in the western part of the box right now.
> 
> Six grabs are currently installing the 275 diaphragm wall panels that will line the box at 30m below existing ground level. While the grabs remove soil, synthetic polymer-based fluid, a support fluid used during diaphragm wall construction, is pumped into the excavation trench from a polymer mixing plant 500m away.
> 
> The support fluid is then displaced by concrete which is pumped into the excavation to form the panels.
> 
> “The slurry then goes back into the resettlement tank. We then test it to make sure that the consistency is right and then we reuse it again on site.”
> 
> The panels are cast using site batched concrete. At 1m to 1.2m thick these wall panels are “meaty”, says Seymour. Around 200m³ to 300m³ of concrete is used to cast one panel, while 300m³ of polymer slurry goes into excavating each panel.
> 
> The team has encountered some problems with clay ground conditions. Although most of the OOC site is underlain by London Clay, some areas are underlain with bands of boulder clay.
> 
> “That’s where it’s a bit harder to dig through,” explains Seymour. “Your panel verticality can be affected by the boulder clay.”
> 
> BBVS is also working as quickly as possible to get the east and west sections of the box ready for the tunnelling contractors to access the site.





> *Piling*
> Alongside the diaphragm wall, the team has also started installing 161 large diameter rotary bored plunge column piles across the station box. A Bachy Soletanche and Balfour Beatty Ground Engineering joint venture has been subcontracted to deliver the piling work.
> 
> At 25m deep and between 1.8m and 2.4m in diameter, these giant bored piles will provide the internal support to the HS2 station superstructure.
> 
> They will sit under the concrete base slab when the box is fully excavated. Working at the pace of one pile per day, the team had installed 95 piles by 21 January.
> 
> Unsurprisingly, the piles’ steel plunge columns are exceptionally large. At 80mm thick Seymour describes them as “monsters”, but adds that they are necessary for “the top down construction method being used and the significant loads being placed on them”.
> 
> The team has just started work on the capping beams for the diaphragm wall, while the first propping beam will be cast in late March. Piling and diaphragm wall work is expected to be completed by this summer.





> *Excavation*
> While piling is still underway, the team will let subcontractor Expanded into the box.
> 
> The Laing O’Rourke-owned concrete frame and substructure specialist will install 55 concrete propping beams between 44m and 65m long across the top of the box to support the walls. These will measure 3m by 2.5m in section and will be set 13.5m apart.
> 
> With the beams in place, Expanded will begin excavating 20m below ground level to remove 690,000m3 of London Clay – enough to fill nearly 300 Olympic swimming pools – to create the station void. It will then use 32,000t of steel and 190,000m³ of reinforced concrete to form the structure of the box including the ground floor slab.
> 
> This top down construction method allows the ground floor slab to be constructed with a series of openings for large excavators to remove the earth from within.
> 
> As the excavation is taking place piling work will begin on a site directly south of the station box to construct the conventional station which will house eight overground platforms for the adjacent GWML. This will involve installing more than 2,000 piles, according to Seymour. Work in that area is expected to begin in a few months’ time. BBVS has additionally installed an extensive dewatering system with wells all around the site to keep the water table down.












And some more details of new Euston proposals:









Value-engineered HS2 Euston station design revealed


Station concourse will be the longest in the UK at 300m long




www.constructionenquirer.com































HS2 | Euston ‘toenail’ replaced by prefabricated panels in design rethink | New Civil Engineer


A major change to the roof is the most striking adaptation from earlier designs, with 20 bronze/ gold structural bays replacing the former curved arched




www.newcivilengineer.com







> A major change to the roof is the most striking adaptation from earlier designs, with 20 bronze/ gold structural bays replacing the former curved arched design, which unfortunately gained the nickname of the “toenail”.
> 
> As part of the updated design there has been a refocussed effort to ensure modular construction and offsite prefabrication are used to assist construction.
> 
> In particular, the station’s roof will be prefabricated offsite in a panelised structure before being transported and installed on site.
> 
> The central section of the geometric roof will be constructed of glass to allow as much natural light into the ground floor level of the new station. The panelised bays either side will also reflect light down into the station.
> 
> The updated designs reflect the government and HS2’s decision to reduce the number of platforms at the station from 11 to 10 in order to allow construction to take place in one single phase.
> 
> The HS2 station itself will be set across three levels, with 10 450m long subsurface platforms, which will at peak operation will be used by up to 17 high speed trains per hour serving destinations in the Midlands and the North.





> The ground-level concourse of HS2’s Euston station will be 300m long and will allow free movement for both passengers and visitors through the station and will open out onto new public spaces at the north and south. The station hall will become the largest station concourse in the UK.





> Taking account of the recommendations of the independent Oakervee review, the design integrates the HS2 station with the existing Network Rail station and emerging plans for over site development, led by Lendlease.
> 
> Network Rail is creating plans to redevelop and integrate the existing Euston station, serving the West Coast mainline, alongside the HS2 terminus.
> 
> Grimshaw and Arup won the Euston concept design job in 2012 but were replaced by WilkinsonEyre with WSP in February 2017. The original team was brought back for the detailed design work a year later, with the latest designs drawn up by a consortium made up of Arup, WSP and Grimshaw Architects.


----------



## Stuu

geogregor said:


> HS2 | Euston ‘toenail’ replaced by prefabricated panels in design rethink | New Civil Engineer
> 
> 
> A major change to the roof is the most striking adaptation from earlier designs, with 20 bronze/ gold structural bays replacing the former curved arched
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newcivilengineer.com


I don't really understand how this is supposed to work - in the renders, the platform numbers and departure boards seem to go sequentially along the concourse, which would mean it runs across the platforms, but in the construction diagram it shows the concourse running along the platforms. Why would the concourse run along the platforms? Or is it a cross-shape perhaps?


----------



## kokomo

Get back the arch at Euston!


----------



## geogregor

kokomo said:


> Get back the arch at Euston!


The funny thing is that actually it wasn't strictly speaking "an arch". It was actually an example of propylaea in Doric style


----------



## kokomo

Yeah, but everybody knew it as the "arch"😁


----------



## geogregor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503430835965505545


----------



## geogregor

Skanska Costain Strabag completes latest HS2 base slab


Site getting ready for launch of TBMs




www.constructionenquirer.com







> Skanska Costain STRABAG Joint Venture’s Managing Director, James Richardson added: “We’re constructing eight ventilation shafts along our 13 miles of twin bore tunnels in London and this vent shaft is the first to advance to this stage.





> The site at Victoria Road also has a crucial role to play in construction.
> 
> SCS JV will use it to assemble and launch two tunnel boring machines (TBMs) that will dig the 3.4-mile eastern section of the Northolt tunnels. The TBMs are due to arrive in early 2023 and will begin the 12 month programme of tunnelling later that year.




















SCS completes Acton base slab [– with video]


HS2 main works contractor Skanska Costain Strabag joint venture (SCS JV) has reached a landmark on its Victoria Road site in Acton by completing the base slab of the ancillary shaft.




www.theconstructionindex.co.uk


----------



## metrogogo

*BIRMINGHAM*
A selection of photos of the piling works at HS2 Curzon Street station.
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr


----------



## 33Hz

Now the government wants to remove the fast HS2 link to Scotland...









HS2 | £3bn Golborne link will be scrapped, MP claims | New Civil Engineer


MP for Altrincham and Sale West and chair of the 1922 Committee Sir Graham Brady has written to one of his constituents that Shapps has given him




www.newcivilengineer.com







> HS2 | £3bn Golborne link will be scrapped, MP claims
> 08 APR, 2022 BY ROB HAKIMIAN
> 
> A senior Tory MP has revealed that he has received private assurance from transport secretary Grant Shapps that the Golborne link of HS2 will be scrapped.
> 
> MP for Altrincham and Sale West and chair of the 1922 Committee Sir Graham Brady has written to one of his constituents that Shapps has given him “categorical, verbal assurances” that the £3bn spur will never make it through Parliament.
> 
> The controversial link of the high-speed rail line splits from the main line before it reaches Manchester airport, heading north-westerly through Warrington to connect to the West Coast Main Line. Its main intention is to cut journey times from London and Birmingham to Glasgow, but the integrated rail plan also included a promise to look at alternative options.
> 
> MPs and residents of the Warrington, Wigan and Trafford areas have long opposed the spur, saying it will cause unacceptable disruption, scupper development plans and have a devastating effect on the area’s natural environment and heritage. They were perturbed when it was included in the HS2 Phase 2b bill for the Crewe to Manchester section, which entered Parliament in January, with Warrington North MP Charlotte Nichols saying it was “disastrous” and accusing the government of showing “utter contempt” for people in Warrington.
> 
> Now, Brady has revealed that he has assurances that the Golborne spur will be removed from the bill before its second reading. He states that the only reason it was included in the first version of the bill is that removing it would have delayed its publication.
> 
> According to The Guardian, Brady’s letter to his constituent reads: “I have received categorical, verbal assurances from the secretary of state that the government will table an amendment as part of the second reading of the bill. This will remove the Golborne spur from the legislation. This is expected to take place in the summertime. The only reason that the bill was introduced with the spur still in place is that a revised environmental impact assessment would have delayed the introduction of legislation.”


----------



## geogregor




----------



## geogregor

There is a new viaduct being installed to make space for HS2 tracks in Birmingham












Graphic explaining all the phases:


----------



## Arnorian




----------



## sponge_bob

It is a £45bn project for now based on the contracts in force.


----------



## geogregor

sponge_bob said:


> It is a £45bn project for now based on the contracts in force.


Yes.

Stupid media love throwing 100bn figure (in itself speculation) even if that includes sections now cancelled.

Anyway, some decent shots of Colne Valley Viaduct found on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/yindee8191


----------



## sponge_bob

geogregor said:


> Yes.
> 
> Stupid media love throwing 100bn figure (in itself speculation) even if that includes sections now cancelled.


Even with inflation the not cancelled sections of the HS2 plan should not cost £100bn the lot. Thats _with_ an underground station in Manchester.


----------



## geogregor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1558085322243801088


----------



## geogregor

Here we go, politics in action:









Tory leadership battle delays bidding for HS2 phase 2a


Prequalification for £5.2bn-£7.2bn route to Crewe put back to September




www.constructionenquirer.com







> Prequalification for main civil engineering works on the 5.2bn to £7.2bn West Midlands to Crewe stretch of the scheme originally was expected to start this month.
> 
> Prospective bidders have now been told that “as a result of the ongoing leadership changes in government, the approvals we need to issue the PQQ have been delayed.”
> 
> Procurement chiefs are now hoping to get sign off to proceed with the long-awaited bid contest before the end of September but said they will confirm a new date when there is more certainty about the timing.


As much as I hate Boris Johnson, who know if phase 1 of the HS2 would ever start with someone else at the helm of the Tory party


----------



## geogregor

Ups...









Faults found on giant HS2 green tunnel segments







www.constructionenquirer.com


----------



## sponge_bob

By convention, in the UK, no big decisions are made between PMs so this was left to the new cabinet....being £7bn worth.


geogregor said:


> Here we go, politics in action:


----------



## kokomo

Not following this topic from close but could the project be eventually halted after all that's been done and scrapped to the trash bin if not enough political support is found?


----------



## Stuu

kokomo said:


> Not following this topic from close but could the project be eventually halted after all that's been done and scrapped to the trash bin if not enough political support is found?


It is being built in phases. The first phase is London to Birmingham, which is fully under construction with one tunnel already complete. It is very, very unlikely this section would be cancelled.

Further phases north from Birmingham are in some danger of being scrapped by the current government. However, the opposition will want them built and there is a strong possibility they will win the next election in 2024, so it is fairly likely to happen, but with some delays


----------



## kokomo

Ok, so what could be jeopardized eventually is the second phase, not the one currently under construction. Understood. Thanks


----------



## sponge_bob

The phasing has changed from Phase 2 then to Phases 2a/2b and then to 2a/truncated 2b over time, these are all north of Birmingham.

Truncations continued into this year with the loss of a Manchester/Wigan bypass portion.

I now see _2a at some risk and 2b at severe risk_ ..or else that of further truncation before any of 2b is built. All dressed up as phasing changes. 

I think phase 1 could yet be cut or slowed at the London end where a very expensive station is being built at Euston but otherwise no. If 2a is scrubbed then Euston is not needed.

Old Oak Common (NW London) to Birmingham is safe, in my opinion.


----------



## Stuu

sponge_bob said:


> I think phase 1 could yet be cut or slowed at the London end where a very expensive station is being built at Euston but otherwise no. If 2a is scrubbed then Euston is not needed.
> 
> Old Oak Common (NW London) to Birmingham is safe, in my opinion.


That's not right, Phase 2a doesn't change the service pattern, apart from getting to Crewe quicker. 

Euston is needed as OOC isn't designed to terminate trains, it doesn't have the sort of throat you would need to run an intensive service from the platforms. Of course it could be redesigned, but it's already under construction so that would be extra cost. Euston is already well under construction


----------



## sponge_bob

My_ feeling_ is that that the project will reach Crewe and East Midlands parkway and Euston. But my feeling is tempered by the long history of short termism in government once problems like inflation and ye olde sterling crisis rear their ugly heads and long term thinking degenerates into a desperate scramble to save money.


----------



## geogregor

Shots of Old Oak Common site from a passing train. Not much to see above the ground, just a lot of equipment. It will take a while (years?) before we see any structures above the ground:

P1280316 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1280317 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1280318 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1280320 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor




----------



## Stuu

Some more drone action, this includes the Long Itchington tunnel




And Wendover


----------



## sponge_bob

I think the end of this video is where a cut and cover tunnel section is stalled over aquifer. The water is supposed to come down the hill on the left...west.. and move east _across the alignment_ to somewhere off to the east, right. 

The concern is that a tunnel could block that water or even perhaps a shallow tunnel could so it may have to go lower. No idea on a resolution timescale and the current drought is no help save that it ain't HS2s fault. 


Stuu said:


> And Wendover


----------



## geogregor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566777339148750849

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566754882815672321


----------



## Sallonian

How does Truss election change things in regards to High-Speed Rail construction?


----------



## Stuu

Sallonian said:


> How does Truss election change things in regards to High-Speed Rail construction?


No one knows yet. She hasn't said anything definite one way or the other during the leadership campaign; she did promise to build NPR though which relies on HS2 infrastructure


----------



## Eurostallion1

Sallonian said:


> How does Truss election change things in regards to High-Speed Rail construction?


Hard to tell because candidates tend not to announce unpopular stuff they plan to
do before elections.


----------



## geogregor




----------



## geogregor




----------



## Stuu

It's interesting how enormous the construction footprint is, seemingly 100m or so wide, and then all the other secondary works around. The Brescia-Verona line is under construction and has a much smaller footprint. I'm sure there is a good reason, but it looks more like an 8 lane motorway than a two track railway


----------



## NCT

Looking at a Wikipedia picture for the Nuremberg-Munich HSL, its construction footprint wasn't small either - wider than the 3+2 motorway next door in fact. Maybe the geology means you need a wide enough foundation to maintain track stability at high speeds?

Makes me wonder if the Chinese viaduct route is the only sure way to keep construction footprint to a bare minimum. The visual effect would never fly in Europe though.


----------



## pr1berske

Just looked on YouTube for "Chinese viaduct". Some of the results look like video game renders more than real life. Darn right they would never be accepted here, can you imagine something that tall over historic English countryside?


----------



## Stuu

NCT said:


> Looking at a Wikipedia picture for the Nuremberg-Munich HSL, its construction footprint wasn't small either - wider than the 3+2 motorway next door in fact. Maybe the geology means you need a wide enough foundation to maintain track stability at high speeds?
> 
> Makes me wonder if the Chinese viaduct route is the only sure way to keep construction footprint to a bare minimum. The visual effect would never fly in Europe though.


This photo?:









You are right that the whole construction is wider than the motorway, but the actual formation for the track is fairly clear and it's not as wide. That motorway is 35-40m wide, all the drone videos I have seen show a much wider strip being dug out. It must be down to geology and the need to provide a sound foundation - especially with the design speed being 400 km/h and the need to avoid Rayleigh waves in the formation.

It would be interesting to compare the costs of digging out such a wide formation vs viaducts or even tunnelling the whole route


----------



## TM_Germany

I think it's mostly because the alignment is always always in a cutting or an embankment, which increases the width of the alignment with their slopes. There are also parallel construction rpads. Once the works are completed, the footprint of the actual railway is mich smaller than of the highway.


----------



## geogregor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574015799332839429


----------



## geogregor




----------



## metrogogo

High Speed 2 (HS2) Curzon Street Works.
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr
m[url=https://flic.kr/p/2nNRXok]High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr
metrogogo[/url], on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr
P1090318 by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) by metrogogo, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor




----------



## geogregor

Colne Viaduct is getting seriously impressive:

https://twitter.com/CarlShillitoUK


----------



## CharlieP

Stuu said:


> It's interesting how enormous the construction footprint is, seemingly 100m or so wide, and then all the other secondary works around. The Brescia-Verona line is under construction and has a much smaller footprint. I'm sure there is a good reason, but it looks more like an 8 lane motorway than a two track railway


As well as the actual railway, they are doing an incredible amount of landscaping/mitigation and planting millions of trees. If they were only building the railway and leaving everything around untouched, the footprint would be much, much narrower (as they wouldn't be buying the extra land).


----------



## geogregor

Tunneling in London has officially started:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578052472022585345

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577997145625477120

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578377239716061184


----------



## geogregor

News bulletin:


----------



## Stuu

CharlieP said:


> As well as the actual railway, they are doing an incredible amount of landscaping/mitigation and planting millions of trees. If they were only building the railway and leaving everything around untouched, the footprint would be much, much narrower (as they wouldn't be buying the extra land).


I'm not at all convinced that is the reason. Landscaping/mitigation doesn't involved digging out a strip 100m wide for mile after mile. Compare with the under construction Brescia-Verona line in the Italy High Speed thread, there was an update video posted the other day


----------



## CharlieP

Stuu said:


> I'm not at all convinced that is the reason. Landscaping/mitigation doesn't involved digging out a strip 100m wide for mile after mile. Compare with the under construction Brescia-Verona line in the Italy High Speed thread, there was an update video posted the other day


I've completely lost where to find all the construction maps online, but here's a snip of one I found in my Downloads folder. The yellow bits are 'Engineering earthworks', the green bits with dark green circles are 'Landscape mitigation planting (scrub / woodland)'. I'm not sure how typical it is of the entire route, but that's a lot of land that will be planted on.


----------



## geogregor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1579411530806095872








HS2 Chiltern tunnel – ‘Florence’ and ‘Cecilia’ reach 4 mile point at Chalfont St Giles


HS2’s first Tunnel Boring Machines (TBMs) excavating HS2’s longest tunnels have completed the first 4 miles of their drive – from the Chiltern tunnel’s south portal to the second ventilation shaft at Chalfont St Giles Download latest photos of the Chiltern tunnel and Chalfont St Giles vent shaft




mediacentre.hs2.org.uk







> Two enormous 2,000 tonne tunnelling machines digging HS2’s longest tunnels passed the second of five ventilation shafts this week, 4 miles into their 10 mile drive under the Chilterns.
> 
> The milestone comes a week after the launch of another giant TBM in Ruislip which begin excavating the London tunnels for the high speed rail project linking the capital with the Midlands and the North.
> 
> Designed specifically for the geology of the Chilterns, the first TBMs – named Florence and Cecilia – were launched in Summer 2021 from the southern portal of the tunnels.
> 
> Each machine is a 170m long self-contained underground factory, digging the tunnel, lining it with concrete segments to form rings and grouting them into place as it moves forward.
> 
> More than 44,000 segments have been used to form the concrete rings that line the tunnels, with a further 68,000 set to be installed before the TBMs break out at the northern end of the tunnel in two years’ time.
> 
> The 46m deep shaft at Chalfont St Giles is one of four that will provide ventilation and emergency access to the ten-mile-long twin tunnels. A fifth will just provide emergency access. Once complete, the shaft will be covered by a headhouse designed to resemble local farm buildings.


----------



## geogregor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582370920781561857





Colne viaduct (not my photo):

HS2 Colne Valley Viaduct 221012 by Cliff Buckton, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582808994439393281
I think it is the first shot from the "inside" of the future Old Oak Common station:


----------



## geogregor

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/earthmoving-gets-serious-for-hs2-cuttings





> he 2.5 mile (4.1km) Barton Hartshorn to Mixbury cutting, near Brackley in Northamptonshire, will be HS2’s longest cutting with 1.3 million cubic metres of material set to be excavated in stages over the next three years.
> 
> Running across the boundaries between Buckinghamshire and Oxfordshire, the cutting will be up to 11 metres deep and will be crossed by six bridges to keep communities connected.
> 
> Material from the excavation – expected to be a mix of clay, sand, gravel and limestone – will be reused elsewhere on the project to help create embankments, noise barriers and landscaping.
> 
> Excavation has also recently started at the nearby Calvert cutting, which will take the line for 2.1 mile (3.4km) past the Buckinghamshire villages of Calvert Green and Steeple Claydon, roughly following the route of the disused Great Central Railway, which closed in the 1960s.
> 
> The cutting will take the line under four road bridges and the new East West Rail route, which is also currently under construction.
> 
> Around 685,000 cubic metres of material will be excavated to create the Calvert cutting which will be up to 9.7 metres deep and wide enough to allow extra local railway lines to be added alongside the HS2 main line at a later date. Other major cuttings, at Turweston in Northamptonshire, Waddesdon in Bucks, and Ladbroke in South Warwickshire, are also under construction.























> Across its 80km section of the HS2 route through Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire and West Northants, EKFB will need to shift approximately 36 million cubic metres of earth and rock over the next three years. Around 99% of this will be moved within HS2 land using a dedicated network of haul roads to reduce traffic on public roads.
> 
> In total, the first phase of HS2 will include 70 cuttings to keep the railway level as it crosses the countryside between London and Birmingham.


----------



## geogregor




----------



## geogregor

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/hs2-launches-second-london-tbm



Second TBM launched in London.


----------



## geogregor




----------



## geogregor

Ian has good post about launching of the second TBM at Ruislip, including photos from visit to site:









A second HS2 tunnel boring machine starts digging under London - ianVisits


The second of two huge tunnel boring machines has started digging the HS2 tunnels that'll run under west London



www.ianvisits.co.uk







> A quirk of this particular site though is that the tunnels start very close to the surface. Normally, a tunnel portal is much deeper, but here it had to be closer to the surface, and that causes problems.
> Although each tunnel ring weighs 52 tons, the soil removed weighs even more. When you remove heavy soil from the ground, the soil beneath it which had been crushed under the weight starts to expand. That causes anything built in the space, often basements, but here tunnels, to “heave” upwards. To stop the tunnel shifting as it’s dug, they’ve piled a huge amount of soil on top of where the tunnels are being dug to add the necessary weight. That weight of soil is a permanent feature, and will later be landscaped into a hill that will not just stop tunnel movement but will act as a sound barrier for local residents as trains enter and leave the tunnels.
> But at the moment, it’s a huge shapeless mound of soil pushing down as the tunnel boring machines dig underneath.
> 
> Another preparation that was needed before the TBMs could get started was the delivery of more electricity. These machines eat a lot of fuel, and local power grids can’t support that sort of load, so a smaller tunnel was dug to deliver a new power cable to West Ruislip. After the tunnels are completed, apart from providing power to the railway it’ll also improve power supply flexibility in this part of west London for residents.





> Now that the second TBM has launched, it needs to dig the railway tunnel, and in the distance behind the tunnel portal, stacks of concrete segments are being piled up. Seven segments are needed for each tunnel ring, and in total 4,220 segments will be needed to dig each of the 5-mile tunnels. The segments are made on the Isle of Grain and delivered to West Ruislip by rail. Once at West Ruislip, a special vehicle drives each set of seven down the tunnel to the machine to be unloaded and later used to extend the tunnels towards Old Oak Common.


And video from another blogger/vlogger:


----------



## sponge_bob

HS2 inc have given quality _infrabloggers_ like Ianvisits good access so far, fair play. I hate organisations that hide behind 3rd rate inane corporate PR.

You should try getting on the infrablogger list yourself @geogregor


----------



## geogregor

sponge_bob said:


> You should try getting on the infrablogger list yourself @geogregor


Ha, ha I should have try.

But there might be a conflict of interests as I am railway employee 

Besides, I'm useless with video (which is nowadays medium of choice)


----------



## geogregor

Burton Green:





Chipping Warden:


----------



## geogregor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593303427492216833


----------



## geogregor




----------



## geogregor

Coming back to Old Oak Common. They will have to remove 5 mln tons of spoil from the station and the tunnels in the coming years. It is a massive operation:


----------



## geogregor

Rebuilt TBM launches into second HS2 tunnel drive
 

Balfour Beatty Vinci TBM Dorothy starts second Long Itchingwood HS2 drive




www.constructionenquirer.com







> The second one-mile tunnel bore under Long Itchington Wood in Warwickshire marks the next big milestone for the Balfour Beatty Vinci (BBV) tunnelling team on the northern section of phase one.
> 
> After operating around the clock in shifts over seven months, Dorothy became the first on the HS2 project to complete a tunnel drive in July 2022.
> 
> Since then the gantries of the tunnel boring machine, which weigh over 1,000 tonnes, were brought back through the tunnel and reassembled at the north portal.





> “One year after Dorothy launched for her first drive, she’s now set off for the second bore, and we look forward to seeing the next HS2 tunnel breakthrough in summer 2023.”


----------



## geogregor

Earthworks progressing:









HS2 JV shifts four Wembley Stadiums of earth in record time


EKFB team digs and hauls 15 million cu m of muck in 20 months




www.constructionenquirer.com







> The joint venture between Eiffage, Kier, Ferrovial Construction and BAM Nuttall has delivered ahead of schedule with a week to spare.
> 
> As an earthmoving effort, it equates to enough material to fill Wembley stadium four times over and is nearly double the 8 million cu m of earthworks delivered on the A14 upgrade over three years.
> 
> Over the next three years, EKFB will need to shift a colossal 53 million cu m of earth and rock along the 80km section of the HS2 route through Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire, West Northants and South Warwickshire.
> 
> EKFB’s earthworks director, Mark Harrington, said: “This is large-scale earthworks on a level that hasn’t been seen before on a linear project in the UK.”
> 
> All excavated material is being re-used on site to build embankments, screening mounds and landscaping projects.














> Over 1,250 pieces of plant have been put to work from partners, Flannery, Plantforce, Blackwell Earthworks, Walters, Potters, The Buckingham Group, Finning and SMT. More than 2,500 skilled operatives are working on the huge task of preparing for a network of 47 cuttings.
> 
> Work has already started on EKFB’s longest cuttings on the central section of HS2 – combined, the team will shift more than 1.9 million cu m of earth. Major cuttings at Turweston in Northamptonshire, Waddesdon in Bucks, and Ladbroke, in South Warwickshire, are well underway.


Public consultation about Euston HS2 station:









HS2 showing off new plans for London Euston station - ianVisits


HS2 has shown off revised plans for Euston station, with a public consultation opening this week.



www.ianvisits.co.uk







> Initial events were held in May and June this year when the new design for the station was revealed, updated from a previous iteration, in response to feedback from nearly 500 members of the public. The proposals are based on a less complex, more efficient, ten-platform station, which can now be built in a single stage. HS2 is now sharing changes made since then in response to feedback from the public and is also revealing new elements of the design.
> 
> The updates since spring 2022 include proposals for the southern entrance building for the London Underground, a new transport operators’ building, as well as plans for accessibility and open spaces.














> The plans for a new tube entrance on the southside of Euston Road are being revised to be more fitting for its location between two Edwardian era stone buildings. They’ve also flipped the entrance around as early concept images show it facing northwards, but now a much larger entrance faces to the south on the pedestrianised Gordon Street next to the Wellcome Collection.
> 
> This will also connect with the new passageway linking the HS2 station to Euston Square tube station for the Circle/H&C/Met lines.


It is worth reminding here that it won't open initially with the rest of the line. The current plans are to terminate HS2 trains at Old Oak Common while Euston station will still be under construction.


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## geogregor

A bit of PR from HS2:









Transport Secretary makes historic first journey through a completed HS2 tunnel - Rail UK


Transport Secretary makes historic first journey through a completed HS2 tunnel - HS2




railuk.com













Journey through HS2's first completed tunnel


The one-mile section in Warwickshire forms part of phase one of the high-speed rail line.



www.bbc.co.uk


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## geogregor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602985679679528961








Striking “Bellingham” bridge set to light up HS2’s gateway into Birmingham


Iconic curved truss bridge with vibrant light installation will bring HS2 trains into central Birmingham The 150-metre-long superstructure – dubbed “The Bellingham Bridge” by the team after the sparkling performances at the FIFA World Cup by local boy Jude Bellingham – is designed to celebrate...




mediacentre.hs2.org.uk


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## geogregor




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## geogregor

More udates from the air, this time closer to London.

First massive site around Chiltern tunnels south portal. That's where segments for the TBMs as well as prefabricated bits of the Colne Valley Viaduct are produced:






Towards the end you can see where spoil from the tunnels is used for landscaping. The same here:






The tunnels portal itself:






And the Colne valey viaduct under construction:


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## geogregor

Bridge over motorway slided into place:


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## geogregor

Colne Valley Viaduct:

https://twitter.com/HS2ltd


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## geogregor

geogregor said:


> Bridge over motorway slided into place:


And in place:

https://twitter.com/HS2ltd


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## geogregor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1610534011272560641


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## geogregor

Looks like HS2 is rising above the ground in Birmingham:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1610989374837067777


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