# [CH] Switzerland | road infrastructure • autobahnen, autoroutes & autostrade



## Verso

I've just noticed this sign on http://www.autobahnen.ch/index.php?lg=001&page=001, and I'm wondering, since when has the Swiss general-speed-limits sign been featuring the expressway sign (the one with car)? I knew there were roads in Switzerland designated with this sign, but this general sign didn't include it before; also, every time you entered an expressway (road reserved for motor vehicles) there was always a speed limit sign installed (it wasn't always 100 km/h). Interesting.


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## x-type

^^ what is this written in 50 sign?


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## CborG

^^Something like; in general or 'most of the time'?


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## Jeroen669

That's a good thing (to sign motorroads). In Holland we've got exact the same limits (so also 100km/h as a standard for motorroads) but as far as I know they don't get signed at the border. That causes a lot of confusion and irritation...


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## earthJoker

Verso said:


> I've just noticed this sign on http://www.autobahnen.ch/index.php?lg=001&page=001, and I'm wondering, since when has the Swiss general-speed-limits sign been featuring the expressway sign (the one with car)? I knew there were roads in Switzerland designated with this sign, but this general sign didn't include it before; also, every time you entered an expressway (road reserved for motor vehicles) there was always a speed limit sign installed (it wasn't always 100 km/h). Interesting.


Actually the last line is not true. Not every expressway has a speed limit sign. It has to have one if the limit is different to 100 km/h. Because of accidents alot of expressways have been lowered from 100km/h to 80km/h. That's why nowadays most of them have a 80km/h sign or even a 60km/h sign.

The word in the 50km/h sign means "general" this means it's 50km/h for the whole village and not only for the particular road you are currently on.


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## Verso

I (almost) always see the 100 km/h speed limit signs on expressways, even in the middle of an expressway, away from exits (I expect them only on on-ramps, but they are more frequent). I go to Switzerland (almost) every year and have by now driven on almost all expressways, so unless sth's changed in the last months...


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## earthJoker

True, there are alot of 100km/h signs on expressways, but there are some without.


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## lpioe

Here is a shot I made of my favourite highway in Switzerland, the A13. The altitude here is about 1600m.











Btw Chris, the link in the 'Thread/Country finder' is wrong for this thread.


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## Mateusz

Beautiful landscape, but A13 is in half profile, and is is an expressway ?


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## ChrisZwolle

lpioe said:


> Btw Chris, the link in the 'Thread/Country finder' is wrong for this thread.


Check! Thanks 

The A13 in CH isn't all motorway, as we can see in your pics. But it might be the highest major road in Switzerland.


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## lpioe

It's full profile between St. Margrethen and Reichenau (about 80km).
Between Reichenau and Bellinzona (about 90km) it's not full profile. Most of it is 1+1, but also quite a few 2+1 and 2+2 sections (with and without median). But it's all the way limited access without at grade junctions.

And Chris, I was asking myself too if it's the highest major road and I'm pretty sure it is.


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## thun

How do you define "major road"? I would say the Gotthard Pass is Swiss' highest major road (in parts four lanes, very wide road). But it's not open the whole year.
Simplon pass (2 005m) it apparently opened most of the winter, Lukmanier pass (1 914m) is probably (I'm not sure) the highest Swiss pass opened the whole year.


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## lpioe

^^
I was thinking of Autobahnen and Autostrassen


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## thun

According to the German wikipedia, the southern ramp of the Gotthard pass road is a Autostrasse (with a max. speed of 100km/h, 40 in turns). If it leads up to the pass (2 005m), it should be the highest mayor road in Switzerland.


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## lpioe

The bushes on the medians on swiss motorways will be removed in the next few years  
The medians will be asphalted. Maintenance was too dangerous because of increasing traffic.


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## Ni3lS

I like the Switzerland highways  Just the mountains and tunnels everywhere, I also remember that we had to pay 30 euro's for a sticker ( sort of tax ) and to stick that sticker on our window  It was in 2006 I think  Nice journey! we slept in a 2 star IBIS Hotel in Winterthur or something?


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## thun

Btw.: I recently found out that the Simplon pass road is classiefied as A-road (A9 or something), so it's part of the highest level of Swiss roads. Nevertheless, you can drive on it by bike.
So, if we use this scheme to define "mayor road" it's the 2000something high Simplon pass.


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## pmaciej7

Some pictures i promised 3 months ago 

1. Road from Rapperswil to St. Gallen.





































2. From St. Gallen to Zurich.


































































































































































































































In next 3 months i'll post pictures from Basel.


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## ChrisZwolle

Is that in Zürich? I notice all those tunnels, though i have never been to Zürich. (i did the Luzern - Sargans route, just east of Zürich).


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## Energy2003

with the actual currency the toll sticker is just 25Euros.

It´s a fair over for 1 years of using highways 


... myself like the extis around St. Gallen ... they look like from a big city 
und coming from Rorschach you see if you have power or not ... there a long part goiing up for a few degrees


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## Jeroen669

15.000 vehicles a day is still not that low for a 2-lane tunnel. Especially not considering traffic safety, which is much worse than in a tunnel with a second tube.


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## Verso

^ Indeed; I don't like driving through this tunnel.


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## Coccodrillo

Chriszwolle said:


> Only 15.000 vehicles use the Gotthardtunnel on an average daily base. How many of that are trucks? 5.000 - 10.000 would already be very much. That's nothing for such an important transportation axe.


3.200 trucks/day or 950.000 trucks/year.



Chriszwolle said:


> The Swiss have to accept the fact that transport is growing throughout Europe, also in Switzerland, which has the position as a very important transitcountry.


That's why Switzerland is building a new railroad (and a half).

Plans are to limit trucks throught the four Swiss passes/tunnels to 650.000 a year, of which about 450.000 throught the Gotthard.

The old Gotthard rail tunnel could then be used by shuttle trains carrying private cars on peak periods.

The second tube of the road tunnel has been rejected a few years ago by a referendum, and by referendum, too, construction of the new railway tunnel has been approved.



Verso said:


> Don't the Swiss use it in summer too?


I take the train


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## ChrisZwolle

3.200 trucks is nothing. Major transportation axes in Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany carry up to and over 20.000 trucks per day. I really don't think Switzerland wants not only to reduce the amount of trucks, but also gets the growth of trucks onto trains. 

Besides the truck issue, the major traffic jams on summer weekends are due to cars, and there are too many to handle with trains. Outside these peak periodes, traffic safety should be concern #1 to construct a 2nd tube.


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## Coccodrillo

Construction of new transalpine roads is forbidden by the constitution. To build a second tube another referendum would be necessary, and it is not sure it would be approved.



lpioe said:


> Well 25€ for one year is really cheap. The problem is that you can't buy a sticker for a week or 10 days like for example in Austria. Even if you only cross Switzerland on your way to Italy you have to pay for a whole year.


25 euros is about the price of a single passage throught the two French/Italian tunnels, where you have to pay for the motorway separately.



GENIUS LOCI said:


> Anyway if you don't want to drive on Simplon pass (often closed in winther) there is a shuttle train wich carries vehicles between Brig (CH) and Iselle de Trasquera (I -despite the name) by a train tunnel built about 100 years ago (the longest train tunnel till they open the Gothard base tunnel)
> Lovely experience I suggest you
> 
> Many years since last time I've been there, but I don't remember Domodossola-Simplon expressway that bad... surely it is an old expressway, while Domodossola-Sesto Calende highway (on Western coast of Lago Maggiore) is quite new and good for sure


The Simplon Tunnel has been the longest from the opening in 1906 until 1982. Now there are 8 longer tunnels in use and 5 under construction.

A new expressway is under construction between the Italian A26 and the border.

Shuttle trains are used to pass the Lötschberg, that has no road at all.


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## ChrisZwolle

> Construction of new transalpine roads is forbidden by the constitution. To build a second tube another referendum would be necessary, and it is not sure it would be approved.


Well, first, this it not a "new" road. It's the improvement of an existing road. Second of all, I don't think making a referendum on everything is really a solution, however, that's another topic.


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## Coccodrillo

The constitution forbids not only new roads but also increasing capacity on existing ones.

Some referendum, mainly locals, in Switzerland are useless, I agree. But this one would be necessary, anyway.


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## ChrisZwolle

The problem with those rail projects is that their revenues/passengers/tonnages are usually grossly overestimated.

here's an interesting study about inaccuracy in planning forecasts. 

If you read the whole PDF, you'll see nearly all railprojects are overestimated, and road projects are underestimated in usage. The problem with such huge rail projects is that they cost huge amounts of money, and they have to make high usage projections in order to justify the construction costs.


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## Coccodrillo

The Gotthard railway has today 50% more goods traffic than the other transalpine railways.

As for passengers, there will be at least a train every 30 minutes at peaks, and more during holydays.

Some old statistics, rail passengers in 1979, in millions:
Fréjus: 1,5
Simplon-Lötschberg: 3
Gotthard: 7
Brenner: 2,5


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## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> A new expressway is under construction between the Italian A26 and the border.


A completely new expressway, or the existing one just being repaved? This seems enough to me.


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## Coccodrillo

The existing one (one lane per direction) is being extended until the border. Until last year you had to go throught the villages, now the expressway avoid them on bridges.


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## keber

If roads would be build according to summer weekends traffic, then all motorways in south Europe need to be widened to 3+3 or more lanes. But you just can't do that.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Ofcourse not, but there is a whole theater of options between a one lane tunnel with blockabfertigung and a 6 lane freeway. 

The problem is that in my opinion, 2 - 4 hour delays at a tunnel is unacceptable. You don't even loose that much time on the Autoroute du Soleil over 200 kilometers on a black saturday. I think a 2x2 Gotthardtunnel can do the job, the other motorways in Switzerland can handle the holiday traffic with 2x2 lanes too without having massive delays. 

Traffic jams on weekends in holidays will always exist, and I don't advocate to eliminate them all, but c'mon 3 - 4 hours waiting is just ridiculous. Same thing happened in Austria, it takes you half the day to travel from Salzburg to Villach. Katschbergtunnel also had blockabfertigung and multiple hours delays, besides the 4 hrs delay at the Tauerntunnel.


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## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> The existing one (one lane per direction) is being extended until the border. Until last year you had to go throught the villages, now the expressway avoid them on bridges.


I don't quite understand. You're saying that the existing road (one lane per direction) is being extended (widened/twinned/doubled, I suppose), but that there's also a new expressway? Or that a one-lane-per-direction expressway was built last year, and is now being doubled? What's the pavement of the old "expressway" between Domodossola and A26 like? Has it been repaved, or it's still catastrophic?


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## Coccodrillo

Sorry!

There was a gap of a few km near the border, without expressway, and traffic used the old route throught the villages.

Now the expressway has been prolonged until the border (still one lane per direction), and traffic doesn't run anymore throught the villages.

I don't remember how was the pavement.


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## Verso

^ Thanks, now it's clear. Good news.


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## thun

To the Gotthard problem:

The general problem is that every increase in capacity of a road creates more traffic. What would be acceptable elsewhere is much more problematic in a narrow valley (noise, polution, etc.). Therefore, trying to get as much traffic as possible from road to rail is a good alternative in my opinion. Sure, lots of cars are still there, but with high speed links from Milan to Zurich and Bern, it should be a attractive alternative e. g. for businessmen, etc.


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## Verso

You'd actually do a favor to the nature with construction of a second tube.


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## Timon91

^^When will it be finished?


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## thun

I think it's a much greater favour to put at least most of the trucks on trains in Luzern and take them of in Bellinzona. By far.


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## earthJoker

Verso said:


> You'd actually do a favor to the nature with construction of a second tube.


No because then we would have the same amount of traffic as the Brenner route.


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## Energy2003

no, There´s as least one point against it: 

swiss has an own vignette too and boarders as a non eu country.

i think it will never be like Brenner, even with 2nd tube (but of course traffix amount would raise)


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## earthJoker

Austria have a Vignette too, plus there is a Mout (toll) there is no toll on the Gotthardtunnel.


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## Energy2003

which surely would change when they would do a "mamut"-project like a second tube


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## earthJoker

Hardly, the Canton Ticino would do anything to prevent having a toll on the Gotthard. It's to political. The Grand St.Bernhard is the only route that has toll in Switzerland. There would have to be laws changed, if not even the constitution before there is a toll on the Gotthard.


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## ChrisZwolle

I think a 27 euro vignette is expensive enough for generally no more than 3 hours driving through Switzerland.


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## earthJoker

You only pay it once a year, nothing compared to the LSVA.


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## Coccodrillo

The toll for the Mont Blanc tunnel is 33 euro, plus 10 euro on the italian A5 to Turin. Then you have to pay the other Italian and French motorways. Every time you use the route, not every year.

(another tolled route in Switzerland is the Munt la Schera tunnel, see page 7 of this thread, and the car shuttle trains)

(instead of another Gotthard tunnel, I would like a road between Bellinzona and Chiavenna - there is only one link between these two regions, about 30 km sout of these two towns)


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## ChrisZwolle

I've been to Chiavenna once, it's surrounded by high mountains except for the southern side. The nearest pass to Switzerland is the Splügenpass. I had a vacation in Vicosoprano (not far from the Malojapass) a couple of years ago. Wonderful nature over there.


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## nils16

Some Pics i taked:
(All Pics are *GPS* Tagged! *Klick on the link *bellow the picture to see where it have been taked!)










The 17km long tunnel San Gotthardo 
HQ+GPS: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1637173









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/2833888









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4344580









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4344698









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4344802









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/7340371









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/7437293









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/11618425









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/8631832










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/8631446









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/12438335









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/12438253









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/12437956









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/12437772


Hope you liked it. if you will i can post more pics here!


Well I have made over 600 Pics from Highway in Switzerland.
You can see them here: http://www.panoramio.com/user/162195/tags/Highway


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## RipleyLV

Great pictures! Thanks! :cheers:


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## Verso

nils16 said:


>


The straightest motorway in Switzerland, also functioning as an eventual airstrip, right?  Nice photos! :cheers:


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## ChrisZwolle

I like the Swiss signage. Usually very clear. Also, the font is better than that what they use in neighboring countries (except Germany).


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## x-type

Chriszwolle said:


> I like the Swiss signage. Usually very clear. Also, the font is better than that what they use in neighboring countries (except Germany).


i like their signage also because font is very similar to our and generally i think i would feel as at home with that signs


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## nils16

Verso said:


> The straightest motorway in Switzerland, also functioning as an eventual airstrip, right?  Nice photos! :cheers:


Yes they can use it as a Runway, when there will be war^^

There are 4 Parts who can be used as runways for arcrafts here in Switzerland.


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## lpioe

Very nice pics.
Where did you take these?


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## Verso

^^ Click the links.



nils16 said:


> Yes they can use it as a Runway, when there will be war^^


Now that's highly probable.


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## ChrisZwolle

> http://www.swiss-pics.ch


So, that are your pics on Google Earth


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## nils16

Chriszwolle said:


> So, that are your pics on Google Earth


YES :lol::lol::lol:

I have about 3000 Pictures on Google Earth...
I drive a lot in whole Switzerland for working. Thusday until today I was:
Zürich-->Sion-->Brig-->Martigny-->Montreux-->Vevey-->Lausanne-->Geneve-->Lausanne-->Biel (Bienne)--> HOME


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## earthJoker

Nice pics, classic one of the Churfirsten.


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## GregfromAustria

i think you mean space ..


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## Verso

Nice pics, nils16! Do you perhaps know what they are building by the eastern Bern bypass (A6) close to Wankdorf? Is it a new stadium, or?


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## nils16

GregfromAustria said:


> i think you mean space ..


Yes, my english is not that good...



Verso said:


> Nice pics, nils16! Do you perhaps know what they are building by the eastern Bern bypass (A6) close to Wankdorf? Is it a new stadium, or?



Hmm, you mean may this: 









Its called Westside


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## Verso

^^ No, that's in the western part of Bern, but I didn't know about it either. It will lie on the top of that tunnel apparently.


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## nils16

Hmm, i dont know. Im from Zürich. Im not so often in Bern.


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## mike7743

wow, Swiss roads are ugly and so tiny.


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## Verso

nils16 said:


> Hmm, i dont know. Im from Zürich. Im not so often in Bern.


Okay...



mike7743 said:


> wow, Swiss roads are ugly and so tiny.


Ugly? :sly: Can you show us an ugly Swiss road?


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## GregfromAustria

oh the most highways i´ve seen in switzerland have only 2 lanes per direction 
they´re very narrow....


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## The other Dude

so you think small highways are ugly? :-/
thats because the average swiss guy doesnt drive hummers and people prefer travelling by train.


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## Coccodrillo

Some statistics: http://www.astra.admin.ch/verkehrsdaten/00299/00301/00364/index.html?lang=en (AADT)


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## ChrisZwolle

So the busiest motorway is the A1 just west of Zürich with 112.900 vehicles a day? That's not so bad. The San Bernardino connection is really quiet, only 6.100 AADT.


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## x-type

wow, that number really surprices me! i didn't have idea that there are such busy motorways in Switzerland!


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## Verso

^ Are you kidding? Population density is almost 200 inh./km2. You can barely overtake between Zürich and Bern, for example.


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## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's not so bad. The San Bernardino connection is really quiet, only 6.100 AADT.


A few people know the three alternatives to the Gotthard motorway. Even if they are not motorways, they are well maintained and wide.

A few numbers about other transalpine roads:
Fréjus and Mont Blanc: AADT 5.000
Great St Bernard and Simplon: AADT 2.500
Lötschberg shuttle train: AADT 4.000 (annually: 1.6 million vehicles)
Furka shuttle train: 200.000/year (pass road closed during winter)
Gotthard: AADT 20.000 and 45.000 in a record day (and no, I don't want a second tube)
San Bernardino: AADT 6.100
Vereina shuttle train: 400.000/year (pass road closed during winter)
Brenner: AADT 40.000 (not sure)

An old article: http://www.uvek.admin.ch/dokumentation/00474/00492/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=8708

(population density is about 182 people/km2, but 2/3 of the land is mountainous thus with a low population)


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## x-type

Verso said:


> ^ Are you kidding? Population density is almost 200 inh./km2. You can barely overtake between Zürich and Bern, for example.


well, i have never been ther nore thinking about it so it surpriced me. i've been thinking about swiss motorways as calm and tranquill


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## nils16

Im little bored, so I post pics.

*Every pic you can see where and when it have been taken*... (I removed the car Nummers)











GPS+HQ: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13839102









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13839030









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13839007









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13838997









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13838881









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13838869









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13838836









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13838470 The sign, shows the air quality.










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13838482










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13838459









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13838439










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13838434










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13838403










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13838378






Aww, Panoramio have some server problems...
Tomorrow i drive Zürich-Lausanne, I take some pics if the weather is fine


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, Panoramio has some issues because they're migrating it onto Google servers or something.


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## Verso

nils16 said:


>


It was a very good thing to open that bridge for Germany. You could barely bypass Basel in rush hours.


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## nils16

Well, some more Pictures. Direction Zürich to Lausanne. Taken 9th September 2008. For privacy i removed all Car numbers 

You can click on the link under the picture. So you see the exactly position, where the pic have been taken (*GPS Tagged*).


















HQ+ GPS: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993308









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993311









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993343









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13994896













http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993381









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13994537









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13994710









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13994840






















http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993389









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993403









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993433









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993440









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993469









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993550









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993561









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993568









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993566









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993742









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993848









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993937









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13993944










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13994212









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13994197









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13994221









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13994304









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13994865









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13994772









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13994908









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13994943









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13995009









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13995119









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13995131









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13995145









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13995251









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13995284









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13995325









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13995420









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13995405










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13995548









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13995628









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13995695









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13995707


So that was it for now, hope you liked it.

I have many more pics... If you will see them check out on Panoramio: http://www.panoramio.com/user/162195


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## Verso

^^ Nice pics, a few of them aren't totally in order, hehe. 

Is there any map (or at least text) showing when Swiss motorways (and expressways) were built? I'm interested in that.


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## nils16

Some new pics...

Most from A53.









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210778

End of a highway:








*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210756









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210749









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210737









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210733









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210725









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210718









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210716









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210709









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210704









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210701









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210692









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210685









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210681
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SPEEDCAM:









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210671









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210663









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210658
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*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210653









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210647









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210644









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210632









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210571









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210565









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210554









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210547









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210544

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Another Speedcam:









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210542

---------------------------------------------------------------------









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210533









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210528










*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210469









*GPS+ HQ:* http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20210461











Well i have many more, but that is enough for now...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Brüttiseller Kreuz, I always liked that name, it sounds brutal 

Nice pics. The A53 is not a really well-known motorway in CH.


----------



## nils16

ChrisZwolle said:


> Brüttiseller Kreuz, I always liked that name, it sounds brutal
> 
> Nice pics. The A53 is not a really well-known motorway in CH.


Hehe, well Brüttisellen is a Village:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wangen-Brüttisellen
And Kreuz mean "Cross". Or "junction".
Well Brüttisellen is a funny name... like Wallisellen 


The A53 has never been completet... There is missing from Uster to Hinwil... They may complete it in 2015...


----------



## Verso

Thanks for the pics, I've driven on A53 only once.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Brüttiseller Kreuz, I always liked that name, it sounds brutal


Nothing beats Wil - Flawil - Uzwil.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Wilderswil


----------



## nils16

Verso said:


> Thanks for the pics, I've driven on A53 only once.
> 
> Nothing beats Wil - Flawil - Uzwil.


Next to that is also: 

-Wattwil
-Jonschwil
-Wilen
-Bachwil
-Niederwil
-Harschwil
and so far...

and the best:

Wilen bei Wil :nuts:


----------



## Verso

I know there are more, but it's funny to hear them in IC train between Geneva and St. Gallen. 'Stationen: Zürich - Zürich Flughafen - Wil - Uzwil - Flawil...'


----------



## Timon91

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ *Wilders*wil


hno:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ I can make a picture of the city limit sign in 2 months


----------



## nils16

Hello

I made some Pics today from the A3. Direction "Sargans to Zürich"
Well the weather was not that good.

Everyone is tagged with GPS, see link under the Pic to see HQ.









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359070









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359085









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359093









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359107









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359111









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359117









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359128









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359147









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359157









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359191









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359208









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359222









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359232









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359238









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359249









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359263









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359271









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359275









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359292









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359305









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359309










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359843










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359848

Well I have many more, but panoramio works so slow at moment...




























http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20359226


----------



## Verso

One of my favorite Swiss motorways.


----------



## earthJoker

nils16 said:


> Some new pics...
> 
> Most from A53.
> 
> End of a highway:
> http://static1.bareka.com/photos/medium/20210756.jpg
> 
> 
> http://static2.bareka.com/photos/medium/20210749.jpg
> 
> 
> http://static2.bareka.com/photos/medium/20210737.jpg


Is there a reason why you put them in reverse order?

The A53 is somehow my "home" motorway as I live in the "Zürcher Oberland".


----------



## nils16

earthJoker said:


> Is there a reason why you put them in reverse order?
> 
> The A53 is somehow my "home" motorway as I live in the "Zürcher Oberland".


Hallo

No, I uploaded them all to Panoramio, And i was checking them all. Then I was at the last Pic, and uploaded reverse...

I try it to make next time better

Gruess

Nils

Edit:

Here is a nice homepage over new constructions of swiss Highways: http://www.umverkehr.ch/100-Mrd.-fuer-neue-Strassen.html

Greets


----------



## Verso

nils16 said:


> Here is a nice homepage over new constructions of swiss Highways: http://www.umverkehr.ch/100-Mrd.-fuer-neue-Strassen.html


100 billion francs?! :nuts:


----------



## earthJoker

nils16 said:


> No, I uploaded them all to Panoramio, And i was checking them all. Then I was at the last Pic, and uploaded reverse...
> 
> I try it to make next time better


No problem, it just feels a bit weird if you know the route almost by heart, like driving backwards.



> Here is a nice homepage over new constructions of swiss Highways: http://www.umverkehr.ch/100-Mrd.-fue...-Strassen.html


I think that the most motorways on that pic will never been built. Actually only lines in red have chances to get build IMO.


----------



## nils16

Well, hope its ok to post that here:

Switzerland will also start with "Section Controll" Speedcams...

Here the message from ASTRA last month:

http://www.astra.admin.ch/00638/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=25301


----------



## steve5

*Zürich West Bypass, 1996 - 2009*

Website: www.westumfahrung.ch

opening celebration, 25.04.2009:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice! It's a very important project for Zürich, especially for traffic heading onto A3 and A4 south.


----------



## Verso

Finally! The tunnel looks great. Did they also open A4 to Luzern? (or why else are those signs there?)


----------



## Buddy Holly

Sweet tunnel.. pretty complex. Must have cost a fortune.


----------



## Qwert

Now I see even tunnels can be beautiful.kay:


----------



## lpioe

Verso said:


> Finally! The tunnel looks great. Did they also open A4 to Luzern? (or why else are those signs there?)


A4 will open in November. I wondered too about the signs...


----------



## H123Laci

nils16 said:


> Here is a nice homepage over new constructions of swiss Highways: http://www.umverkehr.ch/100-Mrd.-fuer-neue-Strassen.html


Der öffentliche Verkehr ist also nicht nur umweltfreundlicher, er ist wesentlich effizienter und auch wirtschaftlicher.

Jaaa. 

und Ich bin der Weihnachtsmann... :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, Swiss railroads are known for their punctuality and efficiency.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The A13 is closed in both directions due to avalanche danger, and the A2 is now facing a significant delay of 2 hours and 30 minutes in the northbound direction before the Gotthard tunnel. I'm now in contact with two friends who are stuck on the A2 for 2 hours now.


----------



## LtBk

Why did it took 13 years to build the Zurich West Bypass?


----------



## nils16

LtBk said:


> Why did it took 13 years to build the Zurich West Bypass?


In Switzerland everything goes slowly with building things... Well Tunnels take also long time to build.

Here some pics I made today:









GPS+ HQ http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22017940









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22017949









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22017975









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22017985









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22017992









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018002









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018008









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018012









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018017









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018020









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018029









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018034









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018037









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018041









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018049

-------------









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018056









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018060









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018077









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018081









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018086









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018101









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018106









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018118









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018131









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22018151

Greets

Nils


----------



## Verso

^ Fresh and clean. :happy:


----------



## Nik the Greek

Nice Pics.
This is Switzerland. 40.-Franken=(27,50 Euro) Toll (14 Months) for very good Motorways.
Have anywhere Pics from Miniautobahn A-4? Shaffhausen-A-1?


----------



## panda80

Nik the Greek said:


> Nice Pics.
> This is Switzerland. 40.-Franken=(27,50 Euro) Toll (14 Months) for very good Motorways.
> Have anywhere Pics from Miniautobahn A-4? Shaffhausen-A-1?


in fact it's 30euro with the new exchange rates.and indeed swiss motorways are really great.


----------



## lpioe

Nik the Greek said:


> Have anywhere Pics from Miniautobahn A-4? Shaffhausen-A-1?


www.autobahnen.ch


----------



## ChrisZwolle

panda80 said:


> in fact it's 30euro with the new exchange rates.and indeed swiss motorways are really great.


Except for the scandal what's called the "Gotthard tunnel". You don't pay 30 euros to queue for 3 hours at the Gotthard.


----------



## ImBoredNow

Those roads are impeccable. Oh, how I would love to drive there with the beautiful surroundings.


----------



## thun

^^
Chris, apparently you're there to the wrong time.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

thun said:


> ^^
> Chris, apparently you're there to the wrong time.


Well, the Gotthard queues are really not incidental, they happen often, and traffic info underestimates the waiting times. Two friends of mine were stuck there last sunday, when the traffic info reported 1.5 hours of waiting time, it was actually 3 hours for less than 5 km (3 miles).


----------



## Nik the Greek

@ Ipioe thanks.

I found this in Internet

http://www.miniautobahn.ch/bb_fotogalerie/bb_fotogalerie.htm


----------



## Verso

Lol, Miniautobahn. Are they twinning the A4?


----------



## lpioe

Verso said:


> Lol, Miniautobahn. Are they twinning the A4?


Only parts of it, between Andelfingen and Flurlingen is under construction at the moment.
Between Winterthur and Andelfingen it is also planned, but could be quite a while until this happens.


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Except for the scandal what's called the "Gotthard tunnel". You don't pay 30 euros to queue for 3 hours at the Gotthard.


Why should we pay to allow transit traffic that brings only pollution and costs?


----------



## H123Laci

^^ the base tunnels costs more. much-much more... :lol:


----------



## Coccodrillo

I agree. Some main roads have been numbered using letters as prefix:
J = Jura moutain range
T = Tal (valley), roads in the plateau
A = Alpen (like the A28)
H = Hauptstrasse used sometimes to not use the A to avoid confusion with motorways (Autobahnen/Autoroutes/Autostrade)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Simplonpass (2005m) on the 2nd of May.


----------



## Energy2003

^^ strange light, at what time have been the photos taken ?


----------



## -Pino-

Coccodrillo said:


> Some main roads have been numbered using letters as prefix:
> J = Jura moutain range
> T = Tal (valley), roads in the plateau
> A = Alpen (like the A28)
> H = Hauptstrasse used sometimes to not sue the A to avoid confusion with motorways (Autobahnen/Autoroutes/Autostrade)


Switzerland makes a distinction between its administrative road numbers (J, T, Alpenstrasse, N) and the road numbers that are actually signposted (Autobahn/Autostrasse in a red shield, H in a blue shield). Each Hauptstrasse has an underlying J, T or A-number that is often completely different. Almost each Autobahn has an underlying N-number (exceptions would be Cantonal motorways like the A50). In the past, one or two J-routes were signposted as such, but if I understand correctly, those signs are now a thing of the past.

In any event, most Swiss roads are numbered somehow, either with a national number of a cantonal number. There is just one problem: the Swiss are poor at signposting those numbers. If you take an exit from the motorway, the number of the intersecting road is never signposted. Even at a motorway intersection, the numbers are often not indicated. H-numbers above 30 are hardly ever signposted. The H-numbers below 30 are supposed to be the most important non-motorways, but they too are poorly signposted. It's just something you can't rely on in Switzerland. The good news is that you can generally rely on the focal points in Switzerland. When driving through the country, better focus on them ...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Energy2003 said:


> ^^ strange light, at what time have been the photos taken ?


Around noon. Maybe the snow was too bright or something.


----------



## earthJoker

My camera has a special snow mode. With that much snow cameras have a lot of problems with the white balance.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Gotthardpass yesterday:


----------



## Verso

^^ A lot of snow. There were 10 m of snow this year on some places here. :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Very convenient fuel prices in Switzerland:

Gasoline € 0,95 (45 cents cheaper than NL).
Diesel € 1,00 (similar to NL)


----------



## panda80

ChrisZwolle said:


> Very convenient fuel prices in Switzerland:
> 
> Gasoline € 0,95 (45 cents cheaper than NL).
> Diesel € 1,00 (similar to NL)


Yes, that's right, but pay in chf, otherwise you will be clearly disadvantaged by the exchange rate petrol stations practice if you pay in euro.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Züricher Tagesanzeiger did a little test in the city.


----------



## Verso

44 min via Westumfahrung? Can't be that long.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Oh yes, the Gubristtunnel is a nightmare. The article said it would've been 25 minutes without the traffic jam at the northern bypass. But Zürich is working on a thirds Gubristtunnel.


----------



## Verso

Oh, it's in the morning rush hour, I didn't notice that. Although, wouldn't then be even longer through the city? I didn't know there were such jams before the Gubristtunnel; each tube has three lanes, and I was never in a jam there (I don't remember driving there in rush hours though).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No, the Gubristtunnel has only 2x2 lanes, and the traffic volumes are above 100.000, kinda Dutch actually


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> No, the Gubristtunnel has only 2x2 lanes


Looks like my memory isn't serving me well, I've driven through it many times.


----------



## GregfromAustria

very interesting, do they say "velo" instead of "Fahrrad" in switzerland?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Older pic from the Grimselpass:


----------



## Verso

^ Ouch, how much is that?


----------



## Sponsor

omg looks like 10 meters !


----------



## Timon91

Yeah, it won't take long until the Alps collapse because of the Swiss tunnelmania :nuts:


----------



## Verso

mgk920 said:


> Q) Why did God create mountains?
> 
> A) So that the Swiss would have places to build their tunnels.
> 
> :lol:
> 
> :nuts:
> 
> Mike


Everyone thinks Switzerland is all Alps, when in fact they cover just half of it (I mean tall mountains). Driving from Berne to Zurich isn't particularly exciting, f.e.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes that's true, only a small portion of Switzerland is really covered with high mountains. most of the northern parts are gently rolling hills, with somewhat higher elevation here and there, and the west of Switzerland is mostly the lower Jura mountains. The Alps are in fact only a small mountain range, compared internationally. You can drive through the main chain in an hour.


----------



## H123Laci

mgk920 said:


> Q) Why did God create mountains?
> 
> A) So that the Swiss would have places to build their tunnels.


they are amateurs..

we need no mountain to build tunnels, smally hillies are enough:
http://vastagbor.blog.hu/2008/08/01/hegyen_volgyon_zakatol_az_m6_os


----------



## earthJoker

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes that's true, only a small portion of Switzerland is really covered with high mountains.


I can't agree here. While the most people really live in the Midlands, by area the alps make the largest part of the country. Geological division of Switzerland:
60% Alps
30% Midlands
10% Jura

25% of the area of Switzerland is unproductive.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Check it out. The entire Zürich ringroad on video. 

The Zürich ringroad consists of several concurrencies, already the A1/A4 from Winterthur to the Limmattaler Kreuz, and then the A3/A4 to Verzweigung Zürich-West. This video runs from the Brüttiseller Kreuz all the way to Verzweigung Zürich-Süd.


----------



## H123Laci

earthJoker said:


> 25% of the area of Switzerland is unproductive.


unproductive??

its a goldmine tourist and ski paradise...


----------



## earthJoker

H123Laci said:


> unproductive??
> 
> its a goldmine tourist and ski paradise...


Sky resorts are not part of that 25%

The 25% are alpine ground that is not used at all.


----------



## LtBk

Are there any plans to connect the Swiss A13 with Austrian A14 in the future?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, if you consider all those tunnels.... but it's still long yes, but lots of current motorway constructions take a long time, look at the A9 in Wallis/Valais and the A16 in the Jura... all under construction for several years, and to be completed in like 2016.


----------



## lpioe

ChrisZwolle said:


> Check it out. The entire Zürich ringroad on video.
> 
> The Zürich ringroad consists of several concurrencies, already the A1/A4 from Winterthur to the Limmattaler Kreuz, and then the A3/A4 to Verzweigung Zürich-West. This video runs from the Brüttiseller Kreuz all the way to Verzweigung Zürich-Süd.


Nice vid. The shoulders on the new parts seem quite wide for swiss motorways. I guess they will convert them to 3 lanes and small shoulder when it's necessary.


----------



## Verso

LtBk said:


> Are there any plans to connect the Swiss A13 with Austrian A14 in the future?


There were plans for Austrian S18 (super two), but it was finally declared environmentally inappropriate. Here's a Wikipedia article (in German) and it also used to have its own website, but I guess it no longer exists.


----------



## LtBk

ChrisZwolle said:


> Well, if you consider all those tunnels.... but it's still long yes, but lots of current motorway constructions take a long time, look at the A9 in Wallis/Valais and the A16 in the Jura... all under construction for several years, and to be completed in like 2016.


I guess the Swiss likes to built shit very slow, but better late than never IMO.


----------



## Energy2003

Verso said:


> There were plans for Austrian S18 (super two), but it was finally declared environmentally inappropriate. Here's a Wikipedia article (in German) and it also used to have its own website, but I guess it no longer exists.



the EU says there are some rare Birds :dunno: 

never saw some; but it would be really necessary fro the traffic in the region

so, Austria has to do it´s own plan to get control on the traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Here's a 10 minute, slower edition of the Zürich ringroad. So you can look at it a little better.


----------



## H123Laci

^^ yeah, I wanted to say you were driving too fast... :lol:


----------



## PLH

Were all these pathes after the first tunnel that bumpy or is it only hard French suspension?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I was surprised to see quite some bad pavements in Switzerland on some motorways. The nordring Zürich had it, and the A1 between Baden and Olten had really bad pavement; old concrete, almost like old-times Poland, but less distance between the slabs.


----------



## Verso

The common section of A1 and A2 is also bad.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I made pics of that section!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A2 Gotthard*

A video of the A2, southbound, from about Amsteg to Quinto, crossing the Gotthard massif.


----------



## Verso

Did it become boring in the tunnel?


----------



## Ni3lS

Gotthard tunnel sucks. I was like dying in there last year.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yet you survived...


----------



## Goyazny

Great video! (Like you were driving 400 kmh.) No, for real , in normal speed this would last 1/2 hour. Who could watch that? Thank's. This route is impressive .


----------



## Timon91

Ni3lS said:


> Gotthard tunnel sucks. I was like dying in there last year.


Next week I'm going through the Channel Tunnel by train. Let's see if I get bored to death 

-edit: they changed that smiley again, this is really ugly.


----------



## Ni3lS

Lol. I'm going thru the same gotthard tunnel again this summer. My mom booked a hotel near to Luzern. Too bad it's the shortest way to Italy  Nah just joking. I love the highway and landscapes. Just inside the tunnel sucks.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A13 Bellinzona - St. Margrethen*

_click on the title to view the full set of 182 pictures_

The A13 is a major north-south highway that is up to motorway specs in many parts. It runs through eastern Switzerland, and can provide an alternative to the Gotthard route. The A13 contains the San Bernardinotunnel, a 6.9 kilometer long tunnel through the main chain of the Alps. This tunnel is located significantly higher than the Gotthard, and especially the southern approach is steep. 

route:









1. The A13 narrows to one lane here for a short distance.









2. After that, it's a narrow 2x2 road.









3. Chur is still 111 kilometers. That's an 1,5 hour drive.









4. Roveredo exit. The A13 is now a one lane autostrasse.









5. But turns into a full motorway after Roveredo.









6. Exit Lostallo.









7. Sortie, Ausfahrt, Uscita, you can find it all in Switzerland.









8. Landscape.









9. The A13 narrows to a one lane express road.









10. Exit Mesocco.









11. overheated?









12. It's quite a climb up the San Bernardino.









13. Pian San Giacomo. Trucks are crawling up at 30 km/h









14. Exit San Bernardino. Snow is laying around here.









15. Had to wait for 10 minutes here because of roadworks at the other end of the tunnel.









16. The northern end of the tunnel.









17. Zürich is also signed now.









18. View into the Rhine valley.









19. Exit Medels.









20. I am gonna overtake this slowpoke from Germany.









21. Exit Splügen.









22. Exit Sufers.









23. A tunnel. There are many of them on this part of A13.









24. Exit Rofla. Juf is the highest village of Switzerland.









25. Exit Andeer.









26. 4 lanes here.









27. Another set of tunnels.









28. Exit Thusis-Süd. A major exit, also leading to St. Moritz.









29. 2x2 again.









30. Thusis-Nord.









31. Nice chance to overtake this line of trucks and caravans.









32. Exit Rothenbrunnen.









33. Chur is only 16km now. Biggest town on A13.









34. another tunnel-bridge-tunnel combination.









35. Exit Reichenau.









36. Finally, the motorway begins again.









37. Chur-Süd. Also leading to famous Arosa









38. Chur-Süd.









39. Distances. The valley becomes much wider after Chur.









40. Chur-Nord.









41. The A13 has a wide median, and no shoulders through here.









42. To make sure you're not on a regular highway with upcoming traffic.









43. Exit Zizers.









44. Exit Landquart. Also leading to Davos.









45. München and Feldkirch are also signed now.









46. Exit Maienfeld.









47. Exit Bad Ragaz. Pavement wasn't too good for the next 25km.









48. That mountain is in Liechtenstein.









49. Interchange Sarganserland. The A3 ends here. Goes to Zürich and Basel.









50. Three countries on one sign.









51. I'm going for München.









52. Vaduz, the capital of Liechtenstein, is also signed here.









53. Exit Trübbach. All those mountains are in Liechtenstein.









54. Exit Sevelen. Also to Vaduz. The Liechtenstein border is only a few hundred meter to the east here.









55. I went for diesel here. They didn't sold korridor-vignettes for Austria here unfortunatly. Good reason to try out the route through Bregenz.









56. Exit Buchs. Schaan is the biggest town of Liechtenstein.









57. Exit Haag. 









58. München is still 238 km, but it's only like 170 after you enter the A96 at Lindau, and Lindau is not really 68 km from here, so there has to be a miscalculation somewhere.









59. Exit Sennwald.









60. Exit Oberriet.









61. St. Gallen is already along the A1.









62. Exit Kriessern.









63. Exit Widnau.









64. 









65. München is signed via this exit, Au, but I wanted to clinch A13.









66. St. Margrethen 









67. End of A13, begin of A1. These situations are rare in Europe. A1 also curves off to the west after here.









68. Notice the E-numbers.


----------



## Dinivan

Out of curiosity, ChrisZwolle, do you just choose a country from time to time and drive along all its roads taking pictures and videos? you must love driving!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, I do roadtrips, which are entirely for the sake of driving and clinching new roads. This one was a vacation for me, I also went out to touristic spots around Interlaken (Grindelwald, Hasliberg, Kandersteg, Adelboden, Lauterbrunnen), but I do take pics on my vacations too, except for roads I already have pictured. 

I must say just driving without taking pics is more relaxing though.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> 4. Roveredo exit. The A13 is now a one lane autostrasse.


Great pics again! I was in Switzerland when they measured the highest temperature in Grono in 2003 - ~41°C, I think. The highest temperature in Switzerland was measured in the coldest canton (Graubünden).


----------



## Energy2003

^^ between Liechtenstein und St. Margrethen the Highway was just built in the 90´s


Before it was a "death-route" with a lot of radar controls 


btw: Diesel is more expensive in CH and FL than in Austria :dunno:


----------



## earthJoker

ChrisZwolle said:


> 48. That mountain is in Liechtenstein.


No, that's the Gonzen which is in Siwtzerland. 

Tnx for the pics anyway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I thought it was the Falknis, which is at the border of FL and CH.


----------



## Buddy Holly

ChrisZwolle said:


> I must say just driving without taking pics is more relaxing though.


If you have a remote-controlled DSLR, taking pics while driving is a snap.


----------



## earthJoker

ChrisZwolle said:


> I thought it was the Falknis, which is at the border of FL and CH.


Can't be the Falknis, the Falknis has the Fläscherberg in front of it and the Pass of St.Lutzisteig. (I was once 3 weeks in the Army in St.Lutzisteig).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Zürich - Bern*

_Click on the title to view the full set_

The A1 is one of the most important intercity motorways in Switzerland, running from Genève to St. Margrethen on a cross-country route. This set covers about 110 kilometers of it, from Zürich to the capital Bern.

route:









1. Kreuz Limattal.









2. Distances.









3. Exit Dietikon. The A1 has 2x3 lanes.









4. Big overhead restaurant.









5. Exit Wettingen-Ost.









6. Exit Neuenhof. The A1 is duplexed with A3 through here.









7. Exit sign + tunnel.









8. Another tunnel.









9. Exit Baden-West.









10. Verzweigung Birrfeld.









11. Lausanne is signed too.









12. Left to Bern, right to Basel.









13. Bad pavement begins.... Really bumpy ride for the next 30 or so km.









14. Mägenwil.









15. Exit Lenzburg.









16. Exit Aarau-Ost.









17. Exit Aarau-West.









18. Rest area Kölliken-Nord. Landscape is not really stunning through here.









19. Exit Oftringen.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3323/3636638162_192178234c.jpg?v=0[/img

20. Verzweigung Wiggertal 
[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3570/3636638746_acb83dc783.jpg?v=0

21. A2 joins here for a few kilometers.









22. Exit Rothrist.









23. Bern is only 60km now.









24. Verzweigung Härkingen.









25. End of the A2 concurrency.









26. Pavement hno:









27. Exit Oensingen.









28. Exit Niederbipp.









29. Exit Wangen an der Aare.









30. A1 was quite busy in the northbound direction.









31. Stupid Dutchmen everywhere 









32. Rest Area Deitingen-Nord.









33. Verzweigung Luterbach. Note that motorway interchanges are not far apart in this part of Switzerland.









34. A5 ends here (or begins)









35. Exit Kriegstetten.









36. Exit Kirchberg.









37. Verzweigung Schönbühl. Begin of A6 concurrency. Not that there are a lot of concurrencies in Switzerland.









38. A6 also leads to Biel/Bienne.









39. Verzweigung Wankdorf.









40. I head for Interlaken. Right follows A1 to Lausanne.









41. Eek, what a messy signs.


----------



## Verso

The Zürich-Bern motorway should be 6-laned all the way.


----------



## lpioe

The Canton of Aargau wants to extend it to 6 lanes from Birrfeld to Wiggertal (32km). But it could take up to 20 years till it's done. Estimated cost is 1.1 Billion CHF.

Edit: There is also a project for 6 lanes between Wiggertal and Härkingen, where A1 and A2 run. Earliest start of construction is 2011.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Verso said:


> The Zürich-Bern motorway should be 6-laned all the way.


Like for the Gotthard tunnel, and unlike the rest of Europe, the Government is more interested in railways, with plans to increase capacity and frequency of trains.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> Like for the Gotthard tunnel, and unlike the rest of Europe, the Government is more interested in railways, with plans to increase capacity and frequency of trains.


Useless policy. Look what they've done in NL for large amounts of money, and the results on roads: 0,0


----------



## Coccodrillo

Not really useless, at least for freight traffic.










And also for passengers the result isn't that bad:










Money invested on transport infrastructures:










Source LITRA: http://www.litra.ch/Les_transports_en_chiffres.html

Km done by train every year:










Source BAV-OFT-UFT: http://www.bav.admin.ch/dokumentation/publikationen/00475/01623/01624/index.html?lang=it

AADT: http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentation/00119/00214/index.html?lang=en (page 14 of the PDF, 24/25 of the document)


----------



## Timon91

Coccodrillo said:


> Not really useless, at least for freight traffic.
> 
> http://www.litra.ch/img/users/2/M08_Tonnen_Km_df_k.gif


What does this small pictogram mean, where the percentage is 0,7%?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Pipelines (gas, oil, etc).

The boats includes mainly, if not only, the barges on the Rhine because lakes are not used to transport goods (or have only a very low local traffic).

I remember that tonnes-km and passengers-km counts not only the goods or passenger or goods moved but also the distance they traveled. 1000 tonnes-km can be both 10 tonnes doing 100 km (10 x 100) or 100 tonnes doing 10 km.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's pretty obvious that trains are far more expensive, they spend the same on trains and roads, while trains have a share of only 16%. Recalculate that to a per-kilometer basis, and you'll see why public transport are so expensive.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Recalculated per kilometer, the investments in PT is about 4.5 - 5 times higher than roads. Not wrong per se, but I don't like it that the investments in PT are used as an excuse to do nothing about the roads. 

I wonder though, if all those tourist trains are also included in the numbers? I've seen loaded trains all day long with tourists.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Every mean of transport has its utility.

For business travel between Bern and Zürich the train is the best otpion, for Dutch going to Italy with 20 tonnes of bagages and two caravan the road may be more interesting.

These graphics consider all trips. But if you consider a mountainous area the 23% share of public transport.

Imagine 10.000 people living a city, making every day 10 km to go to work. 10.000 x 10 = 100.000 passengers-km.

And now 400 people doing daily 250 km (Chiasso-Olten). 400 x 250 = 100.000 pkm.

A tram line in the city may be a good idea, but a new railway for the second example would not and a road would be better (in general, between Chiasso and Olten there is yet the Gotthard railway).



ChrisZwolle said:


> Recalculated per kilometer, the investments in PT is about 4.5 - 5 times higher than roads. Not wrong per se, but I don't like it that the investments in PT are used as an excuse to do nothing about the roads.


The idea is that on some axes the railway is more cost-efficient than road. Filling the remaining double track parts of the Bern-Zürich railway (the greater part has four tracks) may be considered cheaper than a third lane on the motorway, for the same amount of passenegrs and goods transported.

And the target is to promote public transport because *sometimes* it is faster. On Sundays I go from my home to the city centre in 10 minutes by bus, on weekdays in 30 minutes (by bus or by car). And no, roads can't be widened, my city lies on hills or mountains. If more people took the bus on weekdays, we could gain 15 min per trip.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder though, if all those tourist trains are also included in the numbers? I've seen loaded trains all day long with tourists.


Probably yes, because touristic trains are usually considered part of public transport (there are a few tourist-only railways).


----------



## earthJoker

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's pretty obvious that trains are far more expensive, they spend the same on trains and roads, while trains have a share of only 16%. Recalculate that to a per-kilometer basis, and you'll see why public transport are so expensive.


Erm, the cumulative investment of the streets are at least double of the amount of the trains.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ The graphs above says otherwise. But even so, trains are still more expensive on a per-km base.


----------



## earthJoker

The graph is not cumulative! I calculated it by the raw data. Streets invesment are around 70Billion total and rail about 40Billion, but this does not take inflation into account. As there was much more investments in the 70ties and 80ties you would have this would actually mean there is at least the double amount of investments in streets (taking inflation into account).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Sorry, I missed the word "cumulative"


----------



## Energy2003

i drive tomorrow from St. Margrethen <> Bern ... so if someones misses some pic oder want to see something special, let me know


----------



## Coccodrillo

Two videos taken yesterday from the Luzzone dam.

The first shows a road going on the left shore of the lake, then to some farms.

The second shows another local road going to other farms. The second tunnel, with a single lane like the others, is actually in the dam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX0k4KyWop0
http://snipurl.com/kkdb3 (Google Maps)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdTlcE30kck
http://snipurl.com/kkdc2 (Google Maps)

Wikipedia about the dam:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diga_del_Luzzone
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrage_de_Luzzone


----------



## Verso

^^ Very cool videos! Gorgeous nature and fun ride. Do you have a cabrio?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Yes. Anyway, I was not driving, so I made a lot of photos and videos without the danger of driving. I will post them next weekend. The trip was along the Gotthard, Oberalp and Lukmanier/Lucomagno passes. For the first two I haven't made photos because of the really bad weather with fog.

For today...

...tunnels everywhere. The top tunnel is the centre one in the second photo.



The left one goes to the road above the dam (~150 m), the centre one to one of the two parkings of a restaurant and ti a private road for the dam (~100 m), the right one goes only to the restaurant's parking (~40 m). The other tunnels are between 500 and 900 m in length.

The restaurant is also the bottom station of an aerial ropeway used only to transport staff and material for the dam.

In the video "Luzzone 1" i travel along the dam, then throught the left tunnel, then throught the right one. In "Luzzone 2" I pass throught a tunnel before the dam, then throught the dam, then through the bottom tunnel of the first photo.



The dam, with one road above and another inside it. This dam has been enlarged, you can see the different colours of the concrete. The first video begin from a road on the other side of the lake, on the background. As can bee seen from the different colors on the coastline, the level of water can vary suddenly, thus it is dangerous to swim in the lake or to walk along the river. There is a complex network of water tunnel in this area, if someone is interested I can post a map.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A3 Basel - Zürich*

_Click on the title to view the full set_

The A3 is one of the most important motorways in Switzerland, connecting industrial center of Basel with the economic center Zürich. It also runs further to Sargans, but I haven't gone that far this time. This set runs from Basel to Zürich.

route:









1. We beginnen met een afstandsbord.









2. Afslag Pratteln.









3. Raststätte Pratteln.









4. Afslag Liestal.









5. Verzweigung Augst.









6. Vooraankondiging









7. De drie rijstroken splitsen zich hier in 2 rijstroken richting A3 en 2 rijstroken naar A2.









8. Verzweigung Rheinfelden.









9. Afstanden.









10. Enkel "Deutschland" is wat karig vind ik...









11. Hele stukken met 100, benieuwd of ik nog boetes krijg..









12. Rheinfelden-Ost.









13. De rijbaan splitst zich vanwege wegwerkzaamheden.









14. Afslag Eiken.









15. Afslag Frick.









16. Afstanden.









17. Tunnel.









18. 4 tunnels achter elkaar eigenlijk.









19. Afslag Brugg.









20. Viaduct over viaduct.









21. Verzweigung Birrfeld.









22. De A1 naar Bern. Vanaf hier begint ook de dubbelnummering met de A1.









23. Slechts één rijstrook rechtdoor.









24. Nu begint een drukker gedeelte.









25. Afslag Baden-West.









26. Hmmmmmmm.....









27. Een drie-buizige tunnel met wisselstrook.









28. Afslag Neuenhof.









29. Afslag Wettingen-Ost.









30. Afstanden.









31. Afslag Spreitenbach.









32. Afslag Dietikon.









33. Het Limattaler Kreuz.









34. 









35.


----------



## Verso

^^ Nice pics! I've noticed people drive faster between Basel and Zürich than elsewhere in Switzerland. Why's that?


----------



## Energy2003

^^ i drive there often; i saw no radars.

there are often around cities, but rare between two cities (my opinion)


----------



## nils16

Energy2003 said:


> ^^ i drive there often; i saw no radars.
> 
> there are often around cities, but rare between two cities (my opinion)


To see all Radars in Europe and more locations here:

http://www.scdb.info/en/software-karte/

I have all on my TomTom, if anyone in interessed on database, PM me.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Note that GPS maps containing the postition of radars etc are illegal in Switzerland.

http://www.news-service.admin.ch/NSBSubscriber/message/attachments/7033.pdf

http://www.admin.ch/ch/i/rs/741_01/a57b.html

(sorry, I didn't found informations in English)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah I know. You can't even have them stored in your GPS, even if they're off.

But what are the chances of getting caught?


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

^^ Especially if your TomTom is set to, lets say, Polish. And instead of "speedcameras" the list of cameras positions is named, lets say, "SzwajcarskaPolicjaMożeNamSkoczyć"


----------



## Timon91

That'll work :rofl: 

But do they really check that?


----------



## PLH

Fuzzy Llama said:


> "SzwajcarskaPolicjaMożeNamSkoczyć"


It means _Up yours, Swiss police! _ :lol:

Weird, here speed cameras are thought(well, should be) to be a prevention and the list of them is on the offcial road autohority webpage.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Timon91 said:


> But do they really check that?


I don't think so. But if you are caught, I assure you that fines are elevated...and guaranteed.


----------



## Verso

PLH said:


> Weird, here speed cameras are thought(well, should be) to be a prevention and the list of them is on the offcial road autohority webpage.


Same here.


----------



## nils16

Well, I have them on my TomTom. I never heard from someone that they have been controlled for Speedcam POIS...

There is somewhere a SDK Mod, you can push one Button and all Speedcam Pois removed within seconds^^


Just want to share Pics from the "A1/A6/E25/E27", i made yesterday near Bern. It was Jam direction Bern.









HQ+GPS: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/23983704









HQ+GPS: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/23983708









HQ+GPS: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/23983700









HQ+GPS: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/23983623


----------



## Verso

Grauholz rocks. Are the birds still there?


----------



## nils16

Verso said:


> Grauholz rocks. Are the birds still there?


You mean those?









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/24032363









If Yes, then Yes


----------



## Verso

^ Hehe, yeah, these. I see they're doing fine.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Building all road projects would cost 100 billions CHF: http://www.actif-trafic.ch/content/view/285/262


----------



## Verso

^^ They gotta be kiddin'!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A4 Schaffhausen*

preview:









Click on the link to view the video, embedding an HD video doesn't work yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDOx0_BDxQ0


----------



## lpioe

Today I went for the first time over the Gotthard pass instead of the tunnel. It was really amazing, stunning views and great landscape. In my opinion one of the nicest passes in Switzerland to drive over. And the road is in very good condition, the first few km's on the south ramp are even a motorroad (although with many tight curves).
If you don't stop it takes about 30 minutes longer. I can really recommend this to everyone heading to holidays if the wheater is nice and if you're not in a hurry.
I will post some pics tomorrow.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's probably not so much fun in the holiday weekends. I drove up the Brünig pass in nearly stationary traffic, very exhausting drive.


----------



## lpioe

^^ That's possible. Today was light traffic (I went from south to north) and one time a bus had to wait to take a curve until no other car was on the other lane. So I guess a small traffic jam can build up very fast on theses mountain roads.

Anyway, since I'm bored the first pic:









High quality version:
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3171/img4367f.jpg

Check the high quality version for the details.
You can see the A2 motorway just before the tunnel. There is a small queue in front of it, to the left of the lake. 
You can also see how the motorroad to the pass branches off the motorway (where the queue starts) and an access point of the motorroad on the lower left corner.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's probably not so much fun in the holiday weekends. I drove up the Brünig pass in nearly stationary traffic, very exhausting drive.


It's different with the Gotthard Pass, because the road is much better.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You don't get it, it doesn't matter how many curves there are, but just because you have to stop, get onto the brakes, releasing them, drive a few meters, and repeat the whole sequence. Doesn't matter because of the curves, but because of the ascend...


----------



## lpioe

Two more shots:


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> You don't get it, it doesn't matter how many curves there are, but just because you have to stop, get onto the brakes, releasing them, drive a few meters, and repeat the whole sequence. Doesn't matter because of the curves, but because of the ascend...


I've driven over the Gotthard Pass several times when there were long queues before the tunnel, and the traffic was always free-flowing.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> A2 Luzern Richtung Gotthard
> Zwischen Verzweigung Altdorf und Göschenen 20 km Stau, Verkehrsüberlastung, Zeitverlust bis zu 5 Stunden


Time to set up a football court on the shoulder!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wow I have never seen this:



> A2 Luzern Richtung Gotthard
> Zwischen Beckenried und Göschenen 24 km Stau, Verkehrsüberlastung, Zeitverlust bis zu 6 Stunden


6 hours waiting at the Gotthard? I thought 4 hours was usually the longest during summer?

Also:



> Forcola di Livigno Schnee
> Nufenen Schnee
> Oberalp Schnee
> Susten Schnee
> Bernina Schnee
> Albula Schnee


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> 6 hours waiting at the Gotthard? I thought 4 hours was usually the longest during summer?


NOW, how much time, FUEL and related emissions could be saved if they would drill a parallel tube for this tunnel???

:|

:wallbash:

:gaah:

:runaway:

Mike


----------



## wyqtor

mgk920 said:


> NOW, how much time, FUEL and related emissions could be saved if they would drill a parallel tube for this tunnel???


The ironic thing is that AFAIK it's precisely greenies that block its construction and allow this total waste of resources.


----------



## flierfy

mgk920 said:


> NOW, how much time, FUEL and related emissions could be saved if they would drill a parallel tube for this tunnel???


You could save even more when all these people spent their vacation somewhere close to their home.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Or drive on another day... They all know this, because it happens every year, yet everybody is going to wait for the tunnel collectively. Just don't travel through the Alps on fridays and saturdays.

spending vacation closer to home is not always an option, weatherwise. So far, the Dutch summer was very rainy, so I can understand people rather spend it in Italy or France where the weather is more predictable and chances for good weather are far better.


----------



## thun

^^
Actually, being in the jam is way more fuel eficient than driving at 120km/h (as you can put off your engine, and if you leave it on (for whatever reason), your not standing on the gas throttle...).

Everybody knows the jam risk on the main transit routes, but you can't avoid it if you want to have a whole week of holidays... only option is to pass the bottlenecks early in the morning.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's not fuel efficient with the "shock wave" through the traffic jam... Stop, drive for 100 meters uphill, and stop again. Then turn of the engine, and restart it after a few minutes to drive another 100 meters uphill. That's far from fuel efficient.

Two friends of mine monitored their fuel consumption during a 2 hour queue at the south portal (also uphill). 8 liters of gasoline for 3 kilometers. I don't call that fuel efficient. Me, I try to avoid these situations, I'd never drive on a friday or saturday from half july to half august through Europe. The result: no traffic jams on my routes, except if an accident happens, but that can happen anytime anywhere.


----------



## Verso

thun said:


> Actually, being in the jam is way more fuel eficient than driving at 120km/h


:nuts:


----------



## Qwert

^^We should appreciate thun's sense of humour.


----------



## geogregor

PLH said:


> It means _Up yours, Swiss police! _ :lol:
> 
> Weird, here speed cameras are thought(well, should be) to be a prevention and the list of them is on the offcial road autohority webpage.


It is the same in UK, every speed camera (even temporary speed check by white police van) has to be clearly marked. You can buy road atlases with speed cameras marked.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Yep


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A6 Spiez - Bern - Biel/Bienne*

Time for another string of pictures. This one follows A6 northwest, from Wimmis on Lake Thun via the capital of Bern to the bilingual city of Biel/Bienne. I was driving to A16, I was quite dissapointed about the time it took to get from A6 to A16 through Biel/Bienne, even with low traffic levels. Not really a fast route.

route:









1. Old concrete pavement.









2. distances.









3. Thun-Süd.









4. Some cut&cover art.









5. Thun-Nord.









6. 









7. Kiesen.









8. 









9. km17









10. Time for some diesel.









11. Rubigen.









12. 









13. Tourist sign.









14. Muri bei Bern.









15. 









16. skyline of Bern.









17. falling-asleep speed limit 









18. 









19. 









20. If this isn't an urban autobahn then what is?









21. Interchange Wankdorf.









22. Although A6 runs to Biel/Bienne, it's certainly not considered one main route in this area.









23. 









24. Texas style interchange 









25. 









26. Interchange Schönbühl.









27. A1 and A6 ran concurrent for a short distance here.









28. Schönbühl.









29. I wonder if they are gonna sign something like Porrentruy or Delémont here in the future.









30. 









31. 









32. Jura mountains in the distance.









33. Lyss-Süd.









34. End of 2x2.









35. 









36. Nice exit.









37. Entering the city.









38. No sign of signs for through traffic to A16









39. Welcome to Nidau.









40. 









41. Dutch import.


----------



## Verso

^^ I can't see the pics.


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Time for another string of pictures. This one follows A6 northwest, from Wimmis on Lake Thun via the capital of Bern to the bilingual city of Biel/Bienne. I was driving to A16, I was quite dissapointed about the time it took to get from A6 to A16 through Biel/Bienne, even with low traffic levels. Not really a fast route.


A highway is under construction or planned to connect A5, A6 and A16: http://www.a5-biel-bienne.ch/

The red part is under construction, the green one planned.


----------



## Verso

Ok, I can see the pics now. Nice, A6 is my favorite Swiss motorway.



ChrisZwolle said:


> 11. Rubigen.


I was up there.  The best view of the Bernese Alps!



ChrisZwolle said:


> 18.


My most-trafficed interchange.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A14 Cham - Luzern*

The A14 is not very long, it's a connecting Autobahn between A4 and A2, to ensure fast travel from the Zürich region to Luzern and further south. The A4 still has a gap between Zürich and Cham, but this is under construction. I doubt if the Schwyz - Altdorf part of A4 will ever be build, so southbound traffic will have to use A14 for a while.

route:









1. 









2. 









3.









4. 









5.









6.









7.









8.









9.









10. 









11.


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A14 Cham - Luzern*
> 
> The A14 is not very long, it's a connecting Autobahn between A4 and A2, to ensure fast travel from the Zürich region to Luzern and further south. The A4 still has a gap between Zürich and Cham, but this is under construction. I doubt if the Schwyz - Altdorf part of A4 will ever be build, so southbound traffic will have to use A14 for a while.


The Schwyz - Altdorf part is planned as semi-motorway with one lane per direction, with opening planned in 2020 or later. It will have two major tunnels, 4,5 and 2,5 km long (in addition to the existing 2,7 km Flüelen tunnel, plus others). There is a cliff about 10 km long so both road and railway are mainly in tunnel.


----------



## Coccodrillo

I found this, but only in Italian: http://www.tunnelbuilder.it/archive.php

The Sisikon Tunnel (4,4 km) will be bulit between 2011 and 2017, the Morschach Tunnel (2,8 km) between 2018 and 2025. They will cost 743 millions CHF + 215 millions for upgrades on existing road (about 630 millions EUR).



> Svizzera - Approvato il progetto generale per la nuova Axenstrasse nei Cantoni Uri e Svitto
> Dal 2025 la Svizzera centrale dovrebbe disporre di un collegamento tra Zurigo e la Svizzera meridionale più sicuro ed efficiente lungo la sponda urana del Lago dei Quattro Cantoni. Il 28 Gennaio 2009 il Consiglio federale ha infatti approvato il progetto generale della nuova Axenstrasse, le cui opere principali saranno la galleria di Sisikon (4,4 km) tra Ort e Gumpisch nel canton URI che sarà costruita tra il 2011 e il 2017 e quella di Morschach (2,8 km) tra Ingenbohl e Ort nel canton Svitto che sarà realizzata tra il 2018 e il 2025. La costruzione delle due gallerie comporterà una spesa di 743 milioni di Franchi Svizzeri, a cui si aggiungeranno 215 milioni destinati ai lavori di sistemazione sulla strada esistente.
> La prossima fase consisterà nell'elaborazione e nella pubblicazione del progetto definitivo. Una volta conclusa la procedura di approvazione dei piani, incluso il trattamento definitivo delle eventuali opposizioni, il DATEC potrà autorizzare il progetto esecutivo. I dettagli tecnici saranno infine regolati nel progetto di dettaglio prima dell'aggiudicazione dei lavori di costruzione. 07/09


----------



## Verso

^^ Better than never. It's interesting how the Swiss set such far-away dates, but then they actually follow them.


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## ChrisZwolle

They probably reserve these funds in advance.


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## Coccodrillo

Map: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...9,8.631735&spn=0.044389,0.087376&z=14&iwloc=A

The Flüelen Tunnel (2,8 km) is the straight road in yellow. It will be followed by the Sisikon Tunnel (built first to free Sisikon village from traffic) then by Morschach Tunnel. They will have "only" one lane per direction and there will still be a lot of curves, but a "real" motorways would have required 2x12 km tunnels, and the traffic don't justify it (transit traffic from France and Germany uses mainly the A2 from Basel, and there is still the option of the A14).


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## ChrisZwolle

> *Tunnel upgrade plan*
> 
> Finnish firm Pöyry is now starting work on the design services contract for the upgrade of the Seelisberg tunnel in Switzerland. The deal was awarded by the Swiss Federal Roads Office. The 9.2km long Seelisberg tunnel is located near Lucerne and this is the longest twin tube motorway tunnel in Switzerland. The objective of the rehabilitation is to guarantee continuous operation of the tunnel for another 15-20 years.
> 
> Pöyry's contract is worth nearly €5 million and includes an option for site supervision during the execution phase. Pöyry is the leader of a consortium with two other partners. The design phase will last from 2009 until 2014, and the upgrade work is planned to take place between 2014 and 2018. New regulations regarding tunnel safety were introduced in Europe following a number of disastrous fatal fires in Austria and Switzerland. As a result, all Europe’s road tunnels are now having to be upgraded with improvements such as new fire suppression and warning technology as well as the installation of escape routes for users.


worldhighways.com

In my opinion, the Seelisberg tunnel is a very pleasant tunnel to drive through. Wide, 2x2 lanes and not as dirty and claustrophobic like the Gotthard tunnel.


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## keber

However maybe it is not so pleasant, when something dangerous happens. Just good lightning and clean surface does not necessarily make a safe tunnel.


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## Timon91

It at least make you feel safer. The difference between the Austrian and the Slovene side of the Karawankentunnel is quite big. The Austrian half is quite light and feels much safer.


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## keber

True, I know that about Karawankentunnel (and I'm also not satisfied with situation). 

But there is some difference between "feeling safe" and "actually safe". That's why much more additional equipment is needed in tunnels beside good lightning: various detectors (smoke, fog), CCTVs, hydrants, fire extinguish systems, LED signalization, wall and floor markings for escape, semaphores, communication systems, speakers, powerful ventilation, barriers, escape ways and nichés etc. Seems that Seelisberg tunnel does not have all this in most modern state so upgrade is probably needed, especially because it is one of the longest motorway tunnels in Europe.Still in 2007 tunnel test it was recognised as very safe by European autoclubs.


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## Coccodrillo

I have seen an excess in other direction: one tunnel of the French A51 has barriers before the portals (to prevent vehicles entering the tunnel), some panels indicating safety rules before it, and other things...all of these for a 450 m tunnel.


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## Verso

^^ I first noticed barriers by some new Slovenian tunnels, which are even shorter. :lol: But people don't stop by red traffic lights on motorways/expressways, so it's the only way.


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## nils16

Well, since 3 days "Google Streetview" is aviable in Switzerland.
Also many highways are on now.

Check it out ;-)

http://maps.google.ch/maps?source=e...46.481846,6.787244&spn=0.006161,0.016512&z=17


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## ChrisZwolle

I'd rather wish they improve some of the imagery, some of it is 12 years old!


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## ChrisZwolle

I know 

But they turned off to Grindelwald instead of Lauterbrunnen  I love that region, have been there 3 times.


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## nils16

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'd rather wish they improve some of the imagery, some of it is 12 years old!


Well, But the Streetview Images are from March-July 2009


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## ChrisZwolle

I know 

But they turned off to Grindelwald instead of Lauterbrunnen  I love that region, have been there 3 times.


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## wyqtor

^^ I wish the trains to Murren and Jungfraujoch were also equipped with some "rail" view cams.


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## nils16

Hello.

Im wondering what is that since some years now. It isnt a speedcam or?
Do they count the traffic? And theyre often before the tunnels on the A1.
Streetview: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...rEzEeP51mrhn2iXxUaQIog&cbp=12,181.23,,1,-1.11


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## nils16

Some Highway Speedcams from Google Streetview:

Do You see the white line at the street? When you are to fast then it flash you at this line.
http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&hl=...d=Ona7_aMnlS-L55jIdIbUUA&cbp=12,62.91,,1,1.94








--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again 3 lanes speedcam. You see 3 white lines at the road. Almost "invisible cam"
http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&hl=...=g3qBOzVmd1tpD4Tg885cRg&cbp=12,257.67,,1,5.98








--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again white lines. Good visable at day...
http://maps.google.com/maps?source=...983488&t=h&z=17&panoid=ltWQaPM2wNgfgBmY9r2Sag








--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The new generation, most used here in Switzerland. No white lines.
http://maps.google.com/maps?source=...983488&t=h&z=17&panoid=WBpu-V9JnZ_2lUVQWJKAsw








--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks like fake, but it works. I saw flashing...
http://maps.google.com/maps?source=...983488&t=h&z=17&panoid=H6xfM1Y5Gw1lDZMiYMVHDg








--------------------------------------------------------------------------
A old one, but it works.
http://maps.google.com/maps?source=...983488&t=h&z=17&panoid=qjE9JfK40eoBwhJxT2Ki2A








--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allready seen this type above.
http://maps.google.com/maps?source=...983488&t=h&z=17&panoid=uK8vsjRtt5hS28VzHZu8bA








http://img5.imagebanana.com/img/25dj1ev8/cam8.jpg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before a Tunnel. 100kmh max.
http://maps.google.com/maps?source=...983488&t=h&z=17&panoid=KZovp4iA9Amv-iLU4rgS6Q








--------------------------------------------------------------------------
100kmh max.
http://maps.google.com/maps?source=...983488&t=h&z=17&panoid=7OQLYptibCbtPlsxYHvUvA








--------------------------------------------------------------------------
100kmh max.
http://maps.google.com/maps?source=...983488&t=h&z=17&panoid=yk3Kb484N2UZFz75zpRaQA









If you will see more cams, just tell me!


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## snowman159

Could it be that the lines in the second picture, on the side of the road, are for measuring following distances? 

How much over the limit can you get away with, before you get your picture taken?


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## nils16

I found a good PDF from 2008:
http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumenta...O2Yuq2Z6gpJCDeIB8gmym162epYbg2c_JjKbNoKSn6A--









Green= Allready in use
Red= Under construction Year of open.

End of 2007 there was 1763,6 Kilometer Highways in use.


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## ChrisZwolle

Not all of that are motorways though, such as A28, parts of A4, A8 and A9. Those are more like express roads with one lane per direction.


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## earthJoker

I wonder what the two numbers separated by a slash mean.

And when will they finally remove the "y" (Zürich) from the network?


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## H123Laci

Coccodrillo said:


> Help elder people in hospital is a cost without return, as old people can't work. Should we kill all people more than 75 years old?


very good metaphor!
the rail is a sick elder people who cant work... 

but while its immoral to kill sick elder people, its not immoral to kill the rail... :lol:


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## LtBk

Rail is just as important as roads. If you don't like it, don't ride it. Not everybody likes driving like you do.


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## Coccodrillo

The A13 near Roveredo (GR) seen from a train. The autostrasse cut the village in two, but it will replaced by a 2,4 km tunnel (still one lane per direction) under construction under a mountain on the southern side. The existing road will be demolished.

Google Maps: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...36593,9.127761&spn=0.004994,0.009624&t=h&z=17




Some street running of the same railway.


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## H123Laci

LtBk said:


> Rail is just as important as roads. If you don't like it, don't ride it. Not everybody likes driving like you do.


you totally missed the point...
its not about liking... its about tax, economy, efficiency and comfort...


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## Coccodrillo

Taxes: it's the way the world works, but (at least here) money is not wasted
Economy: considering train tickets, 45 € for a month of public transport within all my region, considering car, 10 € for fuel, plus the cost of a car, it's use (maintenance, ...)
Efficiency: I walked for one km (good weather, then it was a pleasure), took the train, then changed directly to the bus
Comfort: I talked with a friend and read, then I took some photos and relaxed without worring abour the road

But if you aren't swiss, ecologist or if you are accustomed to your car, then you will never understand me :wave:


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## pijanec

Coccodrillo said:


> But if you aren't swiss, ecologist or if you are accustomed to your car, then you will never understand me


I really don't understand. All that care for environment and yet Switzerland kills every bear that enter this "environmentally friendly" country ... for who are you protecting the environment if not for the wildlife?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> But if you aren't swiss, ecologist or if you are accustomed to your car, then you will never understand me :wave:


Do you have a list that doesn't take millions of tourists into account?

By the way, only 15% at the same price for 85% of the rest of transportation? I would say that's an epic cost-usage ratio failure...


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## Coccodrillo

^^ this is not that bad as you can imagine. Passengers-km:










But...



> The comparative strengths of public transport lie in the inner cities, in passenger traffic from city to city and in commuter traffic for people travelling to work and school. *On the Zurich–Bern route, the railways achieve a modal split of 88 percent,* and on the Zurich–St. Gallen line they reach 73 percent. Public transport reports a *much less successful performance in leisure and shopping traffic.*


Traffic between sparse villages and unhabitated valley will never take public transport, but none wants to do so. The target is to increase public transports (*) where they are useful, not everywhere.

Road transport will _always_ be higher in passenger-km...imagine 4.500 people scattered in dozen of valleys each doing 45 km, then 40.000 people doing 5 km. Both are about 200.000 pax-km (4500x45=40000x5). I choose these number thinking at real situations: the 4.500 people doing 45 km are inhabitants scattered on a big number of different destination (*==> PT not attractive*), the 40.000 people doing 5 km are a good estimation of students going to the university of Lausanne with M1 tramway line (*==> PT fundamental*, if each of them wanted to use his/her car, the university must dedicate half of its space for parkings and roads).

(*) obviously some PT lines not justified by usage have to be maintained for people without cars (children, elder people, people that for whatever reason don't/can't drive, etc)

(from http://www.voev.ch/Modal_split.html)

Then about freight traffic:










Near 45% of the tonnes-km is transported by train, boats or pipelines. And:



> Switzerland has so far been the most successful country in Europe with regard to shifting freight from the roads to the railways: rail transport is responsible for 66 percent of all transit freight traffic across the Alps (that is, excluding domestic traffic). The figures for Austria and France are 24 and 22 percent, respectively.


Other citations from there: http://www.voev.ch/Capacity_utilisation_of_the_network.html



> According to today’s estimates, transport performance is expected to increase from 14 to 20 billion passenger km, or 45 percent, by the year 2030.


Italian railways does 45 billion passenger km, The Netherland have about the same traffic as Switzerland.



> On the main axes, freight traffic is operating to almost full capacity. At the Gotthard, the number of trains is expected to rise from 180 to 260. To the south of the Jura, on the stretches between Olten, Yverdon and Lausanne, 140 trains are expected to circulate in future, instead of today’s 120. Between Basel and the Limmattal railroad shunting yard, it is envisaged to double the number of currently 32 freight trains per day.


In Europe a railway is considered as much used when it has between 250 and 300 trains per day of different types (intercity, regional, freight) if it has two tracks, and 80 trains per day on single track with passing loops. At the moment, most used swiss railways of each of the two categories have 400 (with provision for 500) and 170 trains per day.



ChrisZwolle said:


> By the way, only 15% at the same price for 85% of the rest of transportation? I would say that's an epic cost-usage ratio failure...


Then no, rail (public transport) investments are not a failure. The failure is investing only on road, only on rail, or trying to use the wrong mean of transport on the wrong place.

=============================================================



pijanec said:


> For who are you protecting the environment if not for the wildlife?


For people! About the nature, it has to be protected, but no if animals become too dangerous.


----------



## LtBk

> much less successful performance in leisure and shopping traffic


Shopping traffic?


----------



## pijanec

^^Yes. You don't want to carry all those bags from shop into a bus.


----------



## pijanec

Coccodrillo said:


> For people! About the nature, it has to be protected, but no if animals become too dangerous.


People can comfortable live in completely urban areas. They don't need vast areas of protected nature for that. Switzerland is killing animals when they enter the country - it doesn't matter if they pose danger. In Slovenia, half the size of Switzerland, there is more than 600 bears and 0 threats for people.


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## Verso

Switzerland is much more densely populated than Slovenia though, particularly in the countryside, which is always densely inhabited in CH (except mountains).


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## H123Laci

Coccodrillo said:


> Taxes: it's the way the world works, but (at least here) money is not wasted


nope. 
its the way europe works. (high tax on cars, high subsidies on PT)
e.g. usa works another way...



> Economy: considering train tickets, 45 € for a month of public transport within all my region, considering car, 10 € for fuel, plus the cost of a car, it's use (maintenance, ...)


put the taxes and subsidies into the calculation...



> Efficiency: I walked for one km (good weather, then it was a pleasure), took the train, then changed directly to the bus


and what if there is bad weather?
or if you are in hurry?
or carrying something/someone?

try look at things not only from your point of view...


----------



## Coccodrillo

H123Laci said:


> put the taxes and subsidies into the calculation...


From http://www.voev.ch/Costs.html:

_Cost structure
Rail traffic requires more investment into infrastructures but is less expensive with regard to safety and the environment

In 2003, road transport cost CHF 65.1 billion and rail transport CHF 10.3 billion, equalling a total of CHF 75.4 billion, about 20 percent of GDP. 

In both modes of transport, the costs for rolling stock take the lion’s share of the total costs. On the roads, 66 percent of the total is spent on vehicles, whereas the railways spend 53 percent of the total on their trains. In road transport, safety is the next expensive item (16 percent). For the railways, investments into infrastructures (42 percent) are second on the list. The costs for the environment (noise, health, damage done to buildings, climate, air pollution and impact on nature and the countryside) and safety are much lower for rail transport.

Neither of the two modes of transport covers all the costs it causes. Taking into account the compensations paid for services to the public, road and rail transport achieve a cost coverage of 92 and 93 percent, respectively. 

The specific costs per unit of transport in passenger traffic amount to 50 centimes per passenger kilometre for individual motor cars and 40 cents per passenger kilometre for rail traffic. Road haulage (57 centimes per tonne kilometre) costs two times more than rail freight (27 centimes per tonne kilometre)._





















H123Laci said:


> and what if there is bad weather?
> or if you are in hurry?
> or carrying something/someone?


1) if there was bad weather I would not have done this trip at all
2) then I would have used the car, but as it was sunday and I was on vacation, I had plenty of free time
3) if I had to carry my grand mother then I would have used the car, but as my friend came by train, I used the same train of him
4) if I wanted to go there I would have used the car (I posted some photos of this dam some time ago)


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## ChrisZwolle

Thanks for the stats Coccodrillo


----------



## msz2

keber said:


> SO you think, that othertwo shinkansen companies work with a loss? I don't think so.
> TGV Paris-Lyon paid itself in just about 10 years.


Paris - Lyon ok, but what about others routes?


----------



## thun

I think its about the fifth time that this discussion came up in this thread.

Being not Swiss, I have to say that cocodrillo is right: The share of railways is extremely high.
And investing in the rail infrastructure in country like Switzerland (most of the people living in the densely populated "Mittelland" region combined with a large share of passengers and goods travelling on defined transit corridors) makes much more sense than almost everywhere else! And it absolutely justifies putting more effort in rail compared to the extension of motorways (the important motorways exist already, and on the transit routes within the sensitive Alps region, a railway line has normally much less impact on both the ecology and the local population).


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## ChrisZwolle

The problem is rail transport is used as an excuse for not building the second Gotthard tunnel tube. If they added the second tube, the mainline motorway network would be completed, and most Gotthard problems would disappear or diminish significantly.


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## Coccodrillo

Another problem is that in Switzerland when the construction of a new public infrastructure start (not only roads and railways) this continues without problems and solve really problems.

But it is really difficult to start building, there are years of discussions and no work can begin if the funding is not secured. Politicians discuss for years, and often end saying that "_yes, this project is interesting, but we there are more urgent things to do and we don't have enough money for all, we will reconsider this project in a few years_".

This means that on transport infrastructures there are a lot of bottlenecks, or real holes. For motorways, there are holes near Biel/Bienne on the A5, in the upper Valais, the Gotthard tunnel, on the shared stretch of A1 and A2.

But also on railways. There are three main lines, all double track, with about 200 trains/day each, all with a short stretch of single track. One in particular is the second main east-west railway with a lot of traffic, but with 3 km of single track near Biel/Bienne. This is a terrible bottleneck, to solve it it would be needed only a 2,5 km tunnel, but still, there is some that says that "there is not money". Again near Biel/Bienne there were discussion for 40 years for a motorway bypass. By 2009, only half of it is under construction, for the other, there are only discussions, discussions, discussions...

...they say that 3 km of single track are not a big problem, that yes, you have to traverse Biel/Bienne using urban roads but this is not a problem, that on the Gotthard Tunnel queues are only on some days of the year, that...that...money is better invested elsewhere so we can postpone these projects.

About the Gotthard Tunnel, the target is transfer on rails as much traffic as possible (that is, mainly trucks in transit) leaving the motorway for light vehicles. I think that a second tube will not be built before 1) transit freight is moved as much as possible on trains 2) all other big projects are completed (A5 Biel/Bienne bypass, A8 Bruenig, A9 Valais, A16) freeing the money "created" by oil taxes 3) someone search 100.000 signatures to start a referendum asking for a second tube.


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## LtBk

The Swiss and most of Europe in general are lucky to have good transportation infrastructure.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Winter has begun in Ticino:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Gotta love streetview. I've been here in june.


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## gramercy

i waste SOO MUCH TIME in street view


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## Coccodrillo

The Gotthard motorway has been closed because of snow today from 9 to 20.


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## Coccodrillo

http://info.rsi.ch/it/home/networks...95a9-255eba8803ec&date=&stream=low#tabEdition

http://info.rsi.ch/it/home/networks...b033-1a000fdccded&date=&stream=low#tabEdition


----------



## Verso

^^ It was about time to start snowing.  Sorry for OT, but is this your photo, Coccodrillo?


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ No, this photo isn't mine. Did you spoke about it in the "International border crossings" thread, did you?


----------



## Verso

^ Yeah, I used it there.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Leventina valley and Gotthard roads:

http://forumfiles.milanotrasporti.org/Coccodrillo/Leventina_6dic2009/

Map: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sour....528959,8.596201&spn=0.0199,0.038409&t=k&z=15 (Dazio Grande is A, Motto Bartola (the military base) is B)


----------



## Coccodrillo

Coccodrillo said:


> I found this, but only in Italian: http://www.tunnelbuilder.it/archive.php
> 
> The Sisikon Tunnel (4,4 km) will be bulit between 2011 and 2017, the Morschach Tunnel (2,8 km) between 2018 and 2025. They will cost 743 millions CHF + 215 millions for upgrades on existing road (about 630 millions EUR).





> Svizzera - Approvato il progetto generale per la nuova Axenstrasse nei Cantoni Uri e Svitto
> Dal 2025 la Svizzera centrale dovrebbe disporre di un collegamento tra Zurigo e la Svizzera meridionale più sicuro ed efficiente lungo la sponda urana del Lago dei Quattro Cantoni. Il 28 Gennaio 2009 il Consiglio federale ha infatti approvato il progetto generale della nuova Axenstrasse, le cui opere principali saranno la galleria di Sisikon (4,4 km) tra Ort e Gumpisch nel canton URI che sarà costruita tra il 2011 e il 2017 e quella di Morschach (2,8 km) tra Ingenbohl e Ort nel canton Svitto che sarà realizzata tra il 2018 e il 2025. La costruzione delle due gallerie comporterà una spesa di 743 milioni di Franchi Svizzeri, a cui si aggiungeranno 215 milioni destinati ai lavori di sistemazione sulla strada esistente.
> La prossima fase consisterà nell'elaborazione e nella pubblicazione del progetto definitivo. Una volta conclusa la procedura di approvazione dei piani, incluso il trattamento definitivo delle eventuali opposizioni, il DATEC potrà autorizzare il progetto esecutivo. I dettagli tecnici saranno infine regolati nel progetto di dettaglio prima dell'aggiudicazione dei lavori di costruzione. 07/09





Coccodrillo said:


> Map: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...9,8.631735&spn=0.044389,0.087376&z=14&iwloc=A
> 
> The Flüelen Tunnel (2,8 km) is the straight road in yellow. It will be followed by the Sisikon Tunnel (built first to free Sisikon village from traffic) then by Morschach Tunnel. They will have "only" one lane per direction and there will still be a lot of curves, but a "real" motorways would have required 2x12 km tunnels, and the traffic don't justify it (transit traffic from France and Germany uses mainly the A2 from Basel, and there is still the option of the A14).


Details of the project in German: http://www.ur.ch/dateimanager/axen_medienkonferenz20070820.pdf


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ Or via the Vereina train shuttle.


Is it true they don't keep the Julierpass open in winter since the completion of that shuttle?


----------



## Coccodrillo

No it isn't, the Julier pass is always kept open, except when there is too much danger of avalanches. The shuttle replaced the Flüela Pass, there has been a local referendum (as usual) to choose between the tunnel and heavy works of reconstruction of the pass road.

By the way there is also the Albula shuttle (Thusis-St Moritz), where passengers travel inside a regional train and capacity is lower.



Coccodrillo said:


> What I don't like is the alternance A14-S16-A12 on the Semmering motorway (even if the S16 has some parts with only one lane and Schnellstrassen have a different legal status than Autostrassen).





ChrisZwolle said:


> Maybe it was intended for A12 to go towards Switzerland (Engadin) once. I can hardly believe that they would construct such a road now.
> 
> The Engadin happens to be one of the most isolated areas of the Alps, only accessible via alpine passes. I think the easiest access is actually from Austria by road.





Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ Or via the Vereina train shuttle.


(I added these quotes to help understand the context)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://tagesschau.sf.tv/Nachrichten.../Romands-rasen-haeufiger-als-Deutschschweizer

Some interesting regional variations in the Swiss traffic behavior, according to a study which surveyed from 1997 to 2007. 

Romandie = French speaking Switzerland (also: Westschweiz)
Deutschschweiz = German speaking Switzerland
Tessin = Ticino, Italian speaking Switzerland

The number of severely injured and killed dropped 21% in Deutschschweiz, 10% in Tessin and only 7% in Romandie

In Romandie, 35% of the fatal accidents was related to speed. In Deutschschweiz this was 21%, and 8% in Tessin.

DUI (Driving Under Influence), caused 20% of fatal accidents in Romandie, 19% in Tessin and only 11% in Deutschschweiz. 

Seatbelt-usage is also low in Tessin, where 32% of the fatal accidents included a driver without seatbelt. This was 22% in Romandie and only 16% in Deutschschweiz. 

Motorcycle traffic deaths were the highest in Tessin at 51%, against 33% in Romandie and 26% in Deutschschweiz. 

Traffic safety was worst in Tessin, best in Deutschschweiz.


----------



## nils16

Hi, I made a Video from "Lucerne" to "Otelfingen" near Zürich, on the "new" A3.
Here is the route: http://tinyurl.com/Lucerne-to-otelfingen on Bing Maps.
(On Google Maps the new Highway is not included yet.)

6X Speed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHej_b0zZYw

*Please rate it *

Thank You


----------



## Uppsala

Verso said:


> ^ Fresh and clean. :happy:


Everything in Switzerland is fresh and clean. :happy:


----------



## Uppsala

*A2 or A13*

Sometimes I’m going by car through Switzerland and using their motorways. Most of the times I’m using A2. But sometimes I’m using A13 instead. It’s a longer way and it takes longer time. But I think A13 is more exciting than A2. A13 is more different and more interesting. So if I have time I prefer to take A13. :happy:


----------



## Coccodrillo

If you have time you can also use the Lötschberg Shuttle and the Simplon Pass.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Kandersteg - Goppenstein shuttle is not very expensive: € 13 - € 16. 

Kandersteg - Iselle, however, is € 57.


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## Coccodrillo

The Kandersteg-Iselle is not very frequent nor regular (about 1 to 10 trains a day only during holidays), so a high price is a way to reduce demand.


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## -Pino-

*A2 Gotthard - Chiasso*

Some pictures of the A2 on a winter's morning (in both directions). Full pictures on Panoramio


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## nils16

A New Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gtqZ2ofUCA

*From Göschenen to Zürich 91km*
Please rate it


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## Ni3lS

Great video's Nils16!! I've been watching some of your latest video's. I love Switzerland


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## nils16

Thank You, here is one new:

*From Liestal to Otelfingen / Highway A3 Switzerland / 5.5X / 04/2010 / HD*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKkl0LtgHu8
61.2km
Route: http://tinyurl.com/Liestal-to-otelfingen


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## Ni3lS

Cool I'm going to check it out.


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## Coccodrillo

Cleaning the Gotthard pass: http://la1.rsi.ch/it/home/networks/...a132-f767baebd05c&date=&stream=low#tabEdition


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## nils16

Some new HD Videos:

From Bern to Lausanne: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggTqKsRsEso

From Bern to Vevey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnBjTaXzbwY

From Lausanne to Bern: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6180T2lAHc

The Route is in the Description.

Please vote, and Comments are welcome


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## Coccodrillo

You forgot to put the links to Google Map


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## phiberoptik

I think that I saw here on this forum some very interesting pic where railway tracks cross motorway (in same level) and i think it is A2 in Switzerland. Am I correct and can someone put link to that pic if it exists?

Thanks in advance


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## Coccodrillo

Here: http://forumfiles.milanotrasporti.org/Coccodrillo/Leventina_6dic2009/DSC04844.html

But it is used only when the hydraulic powerplant needs heavy machines, that is, maybe once every 10 years. Track and powerplant are there since the 1920s.


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## ChrisZwolle

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...16018,8.675444&spn=0.005323,0.009645&t=h&z=17

That's the location.


----------



## phiberoptik

Coccodrillo said:


> Here: http://forumfiles.milanotrasporti.org/Coccodrillo/Leventina_6dic2009/DSC04844.html
> 
> But it is used only when the hydraulic powerplant needs heavy machines, that is, maybe once every 10 years. Track and powerplant are there since the 1920s.


Well, I thought it's used rarely.




ChrisZwolle said:


> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...16018,8.675444&spn=0.005323,0.009645&t=h&z=17
> 
> That's the location.


I thought it is here . Thanks


----------



## keber

Coccodrillo said:


> Cleaning the Gotthard pass: http://la1.rsi.ch/it/home/networks/...a132-f767baebd05c&date=&stream=low#tabEdition


How did the traffic flow before motorway tunnel? Was Gotthardpass opened through winter?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

As far as I know, they kept the Gotthard Pass open during winter. With the tunnel nowadays, they don't go through the hassle of keeping this pass open, as it sees significant snow accumulation (several meters usually). 

This can be inconvenient with the holidays in May, when a lot of people want to go for a quick vacation in Ticino, causing long queues at the tunnel, but the pass isn't open as an alternate route yet.


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## Coccodrillo

There were shuttle trains like the Loetschberg (even in summer).

As far I know the pass has never been always kept open during the winter. Maybe a little longer than today, like in 2001 when it was opened until december because of the fire in the tunnel. But this is considered too costly.

The problem is not only the work to remove snow but also the danger of avalanches.

When there wasn't the rail tunnel (opened in 1882) the only way to cross the pass were slides or by foot.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Gotthard Pass has been reopened yesterday: http://la1.rsi.ch/home/networks/la1...a98c-2b365d9d998a&date=&stream=low#tabEdition


----------



## Coccodrillo

Some photos...again, taken this morning.

A2 above Faido (if only there wasn't this pylon...).



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Vehciles were stopped before this short (325 m) tunnel to avoid queues in it. This queue was short, no more than 600 metres but...



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

...1500 m of trucks after it. On the other side there was no queue and this afternoon there were nearly nobody on both sides.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Fargo Wolf

Love the vids Nils. I subscribed to your channel (1fargowolf)


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## Coccodrillo

Some from the northern side.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Coccodrillo

The Gotthard tunnel will be closed for three years, or for shorter periods of about 6 months for six years. The news has been reported by local newspapers today.


----------



## KapZlock

They should better finish the 2nd tube.


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## Coccodrillo

It would never be finished on time considering the endless discussions about utility and financing before any construction project here. I'm still waiting 4 km of a two-lane road in nearly flat terrain near my city.

=======================================

The TBM started boring the second of four tunnels of the Biel eastern bypass (red part): http://www.a5-biel-bienne.ch/fr/accueil/


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## Coccodrillo

Construction of the A9 motorway is underway. Here some infos in German about the Visp bypass and its underground junction: http://www.a9-vs.ch/fr/neua9infonr.10.php


----------



## keber

Coccodrillo said:


> The Gotthard tunnel will be closed for three years, or for shorter periods of about 6 months for six years. The news has been reported by local newspapers today.


Why so long? Will they at least wait for finishing railway base tunnel?


----------



## Coccodrillo

They will replace internal lining and raise the ceiling. They will wait the new rail tunnel so as to provide shuttle trains both on the new and old rail tunnels.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Do they intend to keep the mountain pass open during winter if the tunnel is gonna be closed continuously?


----------



## Coccodrillo

It isn't known yet, more details will be revealed this autumn. I think it will be kept opened as much as possible, but not during dangerous days (bad weather, avalanche risk). When the tunnel was closed between mid-2001 and December of that year the pass remained opened until December.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Lötschberg Shuttle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk_VkDuem0c

Leopard tanks in the tunnel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKD0KpxJ71k

Again the pass (may 2009?): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVyi7Qz0ECw

By bicycle trought the San Bernardino rescue tunnel, located under the road. This had been possible once, afer the end of works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ikHh_SxP0g


----------



## Coccodrillo

Coccodrillo said:


> I have found for 2 euros a book about the construction of the Gotthard motorway.
> It has been published even before the beginning of the construction of the summit tunnel.
> 
> Here I found a map of the motorways planend in these years. The A16 wasn't planned,
> instead the A6 was projected from Bern to Sion, I don't know if as full motorways like the A2
> or as a fast road like the A13. It would have been a 10 km tunnel under the *Rawil* pass.
> A 3 km exploratory tunnel has been excavated to gain information about the geology.
> Of this project only the Bern-Thun and the Wimmis spur have been built.
> Search "Rawil Tunnel" with Google.


More informations about this project in the next post...


----------



## Coccodrillo

The original plan approved on 21 June 1960 (and still not completed 50 year and one week later) included the A6 motorway, then called N6.

It was planned to run via Gwatt (near Thun), Zweisimmen, the Rawyl tunnel and Sion or Sierre.

On 2 September 1966 the A6 project was approved, and as studies progressed it was decided to lower the altitude of the summit tunnel, reaching a length of 9.800 m and an altitude of 1.200 m.

In 1973 it was decided to built an exploratory tunnel, works started in 1976 on the southern side. After the discovery of damages to a nearby dam, boring stopped in 1979 after 3236 m of tunnels, about 1,5 km from the dam.

In 1986 the southern part of the A6, planned to be more similar to the A13 than to the A2, was officially cancelled from the plan.

Of the whole southern A6, only the Wimmis branch and the exploratory tunnel have been built. The project was abandoned also because Bern-Sion would have not been much faster than via the A12 and A9 (today 157 km in 1h35).

Map: http://img244.imageshack.us/f/a6swcy3.gif/

Wimmis branch: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...46.684894,7.644253&spn=0.075603,0.144882&z=13


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## Coccodrillo

Strange spriral and bends on the A8: http://maps.google.ch/?ie=UTF8&ll=46.749242,8.108983&spn=0.009498,0.01811&z=16


----------



## CNGL

Coccodrillo said:


> The original plan approved on 21 June 1960 (and still not completed 50 year and one week later) included the A6 motorway, then called N6.
> 
> It was planned to run via Gwatt (near Thun), Zweisimmen, the Rawyl tunnel and Sion or Sierre.
> 
> On 2 September 1966 the A6 project was approved, and as studies progressed it was decided to lower the altitude of the summit tunnel, reaching a length of 9.800 m and an altitude of 1.200 m.
> 
> In 1973 it was decided to built an exploratory tunnel, works started in 1976 on the southern side. After the discovery of damages to a nearby dam, boring stopped in 1979 after 3236 m of tunnels, about 1,5 km from the dam.
> 
> In 1986 the southern part of the A6, planned to be more similar to the A13 than to the A2, was officially cancelled from the plan.
> 
> Of the whole southern A6, only the Wimmis branch and the exploratory tunnel have been built. The project was abandoned also because Bern-Sion would have not been much faster than via the A12 and A9 (today 157 km in 1h35).
> 
> Map: http://img244.imageshack.us/f/a6swcy3.gif/
> 
> Wimmis branch: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...46.684894,7.644253&spn=0.075603,0.144882&z=13


hno:... With that Rawil tunnel, the Simplon tunnel I proposed in the Italian thread would made sense...


----------



## Coccodrillo

I don't think so, a route throught the Rawil would be shorter than A12-A9, but not as much as via the Lötschberg. So luckily it has not been built.

Bern-Brig via the Lötschberg: 110 km (in 2 hours via the shuttle and half distance not on motorways)

Bern-Brig via A12 and A9: 210 km in 2h30

Bern-Brig via the Rawil (kilometres are approximated):
Bern-Lenk 85 km
Rawil tunnel 10 km
Tunnel-Brig 70 km
Total 165 km


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> Strange spriral and bends on the A8: http://maps.google.ch/?ie=UTF8&ll=46.749242,8.108983&spn=0.009498,0.01811&z=16


Been there  Brünig Pass.

With the famous hanging rock.


----------



## Coccodrillo

A8 projects: http://www.autobahnen.ch/forum/viewtopic.php?p=715


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## Coccodrillo

A new tunnel, 900 metres long, is under construction under Buchrain to link more directly the A14 (the shortest motorway in Switzerland) and the N4: http://www.a14-buchrain-rontal.lu.ch/


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## Coccodrillo

A new bypass costing 380 millions CHF (270 millions EUR) will replace the existing carriageway of the A13 that cuts in two parts the village of Rovereto (GR). The bypass wil be on the southern side of the village and will open in 2016.

The pilot tunnel of the new 2,4 km San Fedele tunnel has been completed. The TBM will be trasported back to the southern portal where it will be used to bore the service and rescue tunnel from this autumn. At the same time the pilot bore willbe enlarged by drill&blast, the main tunnel will then have one lane per direction. Construction of section in the open air, bridges and one interchange is underway.

The motorway will apparently be converted to a local road or sued to divert the N13.

More info:

http://www.toscano.ch/Portals/0/docs/de/referenzen/12_Umfahrung_Roveredo.pdf

http://www.toscano.ch/Referenzen/Tunnelbau/tabid/88/language/it-IT/Default.aspx


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## Coccodrillo

Construction of the Silvaplana bypass started. This includes a tunnel only 750 m long, but with a gradient of 8,5%. The old road throught the village will be closed and used only in emergency and for local traffic. The tunnel will open in 2016.

http://www.gr.ch/DE/institutionen/v...os PDF/tba-info-87_silvaplana_spatenstich.pdf


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## ChrisZwolle

Is that for traffic to and from the Julierpass? I remember driving up the Julier from Tiefencastel, we had a big-ass caravan behind our rather small Peugeot 406 1.8 petrol car. The Julier is not extremely steep, but it is very long from Tiefencastel, with continuous grades of 5 - 10%. At the top, the engine temperature was at 110 degrees, and we had to let it cool for a while. It didn't boil though, although it was close. Then there was a relatively short downgrade, but one has to keep in mind the valley around Silvaplana is still at 1.800 meters altitude. Then we descended down the Malojapass, and stayed at a campsite in Vicosoprano. Lovely area, not as touristic as St. Moritz.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Yes, it is the N3 road coming from the Jiulierpass, the only access of the Engadine from the north until the opening of the Vereina tunnel.

http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...46.461659,9.795899&spn=0.019097,0.036221&z=15


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## Coccodrillo

A note about the two tunnels between Brunnen and Flüelen:

http://www.ur.ch/dateimanager/axen_medienkonferenz20070820.pdf

Looking at the picture on page 16, the southern portal of the Sisikoner tunnel should be there, above the railway bridge:

http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sour...938279,8.61665&spn=0.004703,0.009055&t=h&z=17

I hope it will be designed to allow for another tunnel between this point and the Flüeler tunnel.


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## Coccodrillo

A summary of all projects in Switzerland. It may be incomplete or with errors.

All motorways
- upgrade of tunnels to the latest safety standards
- construction of noise barriers

A1
- new interchange: http://www.neufeldzubringer.ch/
- heavy maintenance: http://a1-cossonay.ofrou.ch/
- shulder running near Morges (between Genève and Lausanne): http://www.a1-morges-ecublens.ch/
- Zürich northern bypass: http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/01150/01483/01486/01500/index.html?lang=fr
- Rescue tunnel for the Milchbrucktunnel in Zürich: http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/01150/01483/02183/02185/index.html?lang=fr

A2 Gotthard Motorway
- maintenance of the tunnels in the Luzern area, see http://www.cityring.ch/ and http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/01337/01341/01343/index.html?lang=de
- Lopperviadukt: http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/01337/01347/02562/index.html?lang=de (see the slideshow)
- closure of the Gotthard tunnel for two to three years, or some months fo more years, in around 2020 (but not before 2017)
- new service tunnel for a 1,7 km tunnel, see http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/01365/01367/01369/index.html?lang=de and http://www.ti.ch/dt/dc/Temi/doc/Melide_Grancia.pdf
- ugly noise barriers in Bissone: http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/01365/01367/01793/index.html?lang=de
- new interchange, a 4 km branch lying in plain is stopped because of endless discussions: http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/01365/01367/02157/index.html?lang=de
- service and control area for trucks before the southern ramp, there are or will be similar areas also on the northern side, on the A9 and on the A13: http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/01365/01475/01877/index.html?lang=de
- new interchange in Bellinzona, only to/from the south: http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/01365/01475/02159/index.html?lang=de

A3

A4
- partial doubling between Winterthur and Shaffhausen (from 2 to 4 lanes, but without shoulders): http://www.miniautobahn.ch/ and http://www.miniautobahn-fest.ch/
- new Axenstrasse with two 4,4 km (2017) and 2,8 km (2025) tunnels

A5
- Biel-Bienny bypass is partly under construction (opening around 2015): http://www.a5-biel-bienne.ch/
- construction of the 800 metres long Serrières tunnel is underway, a waste of public money, for some
http://www.ne.ch/neat/documents/transport/Routes_1830/ConstructionA5_files/A5_TUS_Flyer.pdf
http://www.ne.ch/neat/site/jsp/rubrique/rubrique.jsp?StyleType=bleu&DocId=6952
http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sour...80648,6.900144&spn=0.006924,0.022659&t=k&z=16

A6
- the Bern-Biel Bienne road become part of the national network, probably renumbered A6

A7

A8
- new A2/A8 interchange, see http://www.a2infonw.ch/
- some tunnels bypassing villages are under construction with opening before 2015, but for the 3,7 km summit tunnel no dates are set, see http://www.a8-ow.ch/
- new rescue tunnels parallels to the existing tunnels between Interlaken and the Brünig Pass, these tunnels may be built to allow at least traffic one lane during the clousure of the main tunnel if this happen (no dates set)
- see http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/00956/00997/index.html?lang=fr

A9
- completion of the motorway until Brig by 2015
- heavy maintenance to the Simplon road
- increasing the number of the train shuttles of the Simplon from one train every 90 minutes to one every 60 (planend)
- see http://www.a9-vs.ch/deutsch/abschnitte.html

A10

A11 (doesn't exist)

A12
- heavy maintenance: http://a12-semsales-riaz.ofrou.ch/

A13
- Roveredo bypass (2016), including a 2,4 km tunnel: http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/01365/01367/01376/index.html?lang=de

A14
- new interchange including a nw 800 metres tunnel: http://www.a14-buchrain-rontal.lu.ch/

A15 (doesn't exist)

A16
- new motorway partly 2x1 lanes: http://www.a16.ch/
- planned opening dates: http://www.a16.ch/A/a16_clic.pdf

A19

A20
- the Neuchâtel-La Chaux de Fonds road become part of the national network, probably renumbere A20 (ex J20/H20)

A21
- the Martigny–Grand St Bernard road become part of the national network, probably renumbered A21

A28 Prättigauerstrasse
- some bypass tunnels to link with the Vereina tunnel, see http://www.gr.ch/DE/institutionen/v...bau/umfahrung-saas/Seiten/umfahrung-saas.aspx

A50

A51

A52

A53
- become part of the national network

Lötschberg road
- together with other roads become part of the national network
- numbered H223 Spiez – Kandersteg and H509 Goppenstein – Gampel, the two parts being separated and linked by the railway tunnel

Julier road
- become part of the national network (H417 and H3)


----------



## nils16

Well I have now a new camera, and i made a Video from

*Zürich to St. Margrethen. 1080p* about 110km.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBCH8rGF9aw

The light was not very good. I will make better videos soon 
And the Route; http://tinyurl.com/Zurich-margrethen


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## Coccodrillo

A tour on the Grimsel, Susten and Furka passes, obviously by train and bus. Bus drivers during winter months drive the snowplows used also to reopen the passes.

The same bus driver run 5 or 6 times a day on these passes.

http://www.snotpg.ch/photoreportage/ballade_suisse/reportage_3/ballade_3.html

(today I have made a video of the A13 motorway going downhill from the San Bernardino tunnel - does anyone know a free software to cut, speed up and link MP4 files?)


----------



## nils16

From Biberbrugg SZ to Zürich City / Highway A3 / Switzerland / 07.2010 / 1080p HD
Route on Google Maps: http://tinyurl.com/biberbrugg-zurich

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jud8PsteXww


----------



## mgk920

nils16 said:


> From Biberbrugg SZ to Zürich City / Highway A3 / Switzerland / 07.2010 / 1080p HD
> Route on Google Maps: http://tinyurl.com/biberbrugg-zurich
> 
> Video:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jud8PsteXww


What was the ultimate 'buildout' plan for that motorway stub end near the end of that clip?

Mike


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## Coccodrillo

Maybe a link between A3W and A1L over the river?

http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...47.376035,8.535004&spn=0.039117,0.076818&z=14


----------



## nils16

Coccodrillo said:


> Maybe a link between A3W and A1L over the river?
> 
> http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...47.376035,8.535004&spn=0.039117,0.076818&z=14


Yes thats correct. Here a post about this Project with images:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=711794
*English Version*: http://translate.google.ch/translat...wthread.php?t=711794&sl=de&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8


----------



## nils16

Rastplatz Knonauer Amt nach Zürich / Autobahn A4 / 07.2010/ 1080p HD
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDsG9UaUb4Q
Route on Google Maps: Route on Google Maps: http://tinyurl.com/Knonau-zurich


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## Coccodrillo

Thank you. At around 1:45 the artificial part of the Uetliberg Tunnel can easily be seen. There is also apparently a service ramp for vehicles.


----------



## Coccodrillo

A new bypass is being studied for the A2 in Lucerne. The bypass would be 4,5 km long with a twin tube tunnel under the Reuss river, with two lanes per direction. The existing A2 would be expanded to 6 lanes north of the new tunnel (between Emmen Nord and Buchrain) and to 3+2 to the south (3 lanes northbound, 2 southbound). Cost is estimated at 1,7 billions CHF, opening not very soon.

Websites:
http://www.bypass.lu.ch/
http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentation/00109/00113/00491/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=33897

Maps:
http://www.news.admin.ch/NSBSubscriber/message/attachments/19665.pdf
http://www.bypass.lu.ch/technischer_plan_20100623.jpg
http://www.bypass.lu.ch/uebersicht_20100623.jpg


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## Verso

^^ That's not a bad idea. The existing A2 is quite winding there (although it used to be even more).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Luzern is despite it's relatively small size one of the largest choke-point in the Swiss Autobahn network. It's quite an urban section there. 

I made a video last year:


----------



## Coccodrillo

Some detailed plans can be seen at the end of the file "Synthesebericht gross" (13MB): http://www.bypass.lu.ch/index/zweckmaessigkeitsbeurteilung/bestvariante_gesamtsystem.htm

Rathausen and Schlund tunnel will be "doubled" adding a third tube.

There is also a plan to wide the A2 around Hergiswil, directly in place or with a variant in tunnel, but the is no a definitive project yet.

http://www.a8-ow.ch/lopper/main.html

http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...89826,8.311758&spn=0.019701,0.038409&t=h&z=15


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## ChrisZwolle

Currently 3 hours 45 minutes waiting time at the Gotthard tunnel.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Why nearly nobody looks for alternatives? For trips like Frankfurt-Genova they are not much longer:

G S Bernard 873 km 8h34
Gotthard 808km 7h52
S Bernardino 866 km 8h31

There are also 4 km of jam also at the border (where policemen reduce the lanes from 2 to 1 per direction and wave you without checking nothing).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Alternatives? This is the TomTom age. People don't pay attention to their routes anymore, because the almighty TomTom will guide them.

The best alternative is to simply not drive today.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Sad but true.

And even if the A13 has jams, there is a fifth alternative: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sour...l=46.605111,8.86734&spn=0.31748,0.614548&z=11 (and unlike most non-motorway/main road passes, this one is kept opened year round; ADT 150 in winter and 1500 in summer)


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Currently 3 hours 45 minutes waiting time at the Gotthard tunnel.


Now reduced to 1 hour southbound and 2 hours northbound.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's probably better if everybody goes on Saturday. That leaves the other five, six days of the week with relative quietness on the roads.


----------



## Coccodrillo

It would be even better if someone tell Dutch and Germans to use the alternatives. In Switzerland there is a sort of club that send to his members news, suggestions, etc. There is something similar in the Netherlands? I hope that when the Gotthard tunnel close someone will tell these 30.000 drivers going on holiday not to come there the same day.

Now 3 km jam southbound, 1h45 waiting time northbound.


----------



## lpioe

Underground roundabout u/c in Bern:









In the future the surface will be used for trams.
Here is a (low quality) vid:
http://www.wankdorfplatz.ch/index.php?page=762
You can see the roundabout at around 3:30.


----------



## lpioe

double post


----------



## Coccodrillo

Sunday 11 am: 3 km jam southbound, nothing northbound.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Sunday 3 pm: 3 km/30 minutes jam in both directions


----------



## Coccodrillo

Sunday 7 pm: 2 km jam northbound only


----------



## aswnl

Coccodrillo said:


> Why nearly nobody looks for alternatives?


Why the hell the Swiss haven't build a second tube for the important Gotthard tunnel ? It would have saved a lot of unnecessary emissions and got more Francs for roadtolls. Above that the tunnel would be much safer.

No, you built a new train tunnel.
How stupid a country can be ?? :bash:


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ I have already replied thousand of times



aswnl said:


> and got more Francs for roadtolls


No because private cars would still pay 25-30 €/year for the vignette.


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Currently 3 hours 45 minutes waiting time at the Gotthard tunnel.


The same hour (9 - 10 am) two days later (monday), no queue.

Edit 1: no queue at 9, some at 10.

Edit 2: 2 km queque southbound at 11:20

Edit 3: 4 km and 1h waiting time at 13:00 southbound, 2 km northbound

Edit 4: 4 km and 1h waiting time at 16:00 southbound


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## Coccodrillo

No more queues, but saturday there were 14 km at the border towards Italy.


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## ChrisZwolle

What is up with those border traffic jams? I thought Switzerland entered Schengen?


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## Coccodrillo

There are only 2 lanes opened in both directions out of 12, sometimes 3. Polciemen usually only wave drivers to pass, and stop randomly.


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## ChrisZwolle

Why don't they open all the lanes? This is just stupidity, check efficiently, or don't check at all. Other countries use mobile surveillance teams to stop suspicious vehicles (I was stopped two times in Schengen  )


----------



## Coccodrillo

Stupidity? Laziness? Less policemen to pay? I dont'know.

To be honest, two lanes are reserved for empty trucks (loaded trucks have their separate border custom). But there are at least four more, unused, empty lanes (in both directions).

======================================

The northbound tube of the Stalvedro tunnel (the one just before the Gotthard tunnel on the southern side) will be enlarged to insert a shoulder lane. The works costing 14 millions CHF will start in 2012. This will allow the passage of emergency vehicles even with queue.


----------



## lpioe

Don't know if this has been posted before:
AADT for swiss national roads since 2002.
http://www.astra.admin.ch/verkehrsdaten/00299/00301/00364/index.html?lang=de

Highest in 2009 was 138'900 at the Brüttiseller Kreuz north of Zurich.


----------



## -Pino-

ChrisZwolle said:


> What is up with those border traffic jams? I thought Switzerland entered Schengen?


The Swiss have entered Schengen, but not the European Union. So freedom of movement of persons: yes. But freedom of movement of goods: no. Hence the permanent control on border posts like Chiasso and Basel. Which obviously also is a good means of checking whether foreign cars / motorists have their vignette. It is a somewhat cynical method of showing your power. If I was a smugglar, I'd use one of the many crossings that appear to be more or less unattended. At Chiasso, it always seems to be quicker to take the exit, then the one-lane border crossing in Chiasso itself and then quickly back onto the motorway.

Back to a happier topic, here are some pictures of the A2 between Chiasso and the Gotthard tunnel. Available in a larger format at my Panoramio page.


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## nils16

Video:
From La Chaux-de-Fonds to Luterbach / Autobahn A16/ A5 /A1 Switzerland / 08.2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMwNIlTR82k

Route on Google Map: http://tinyurl.com/chauxfonds-luterbach


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## ChrisZwolle

A few things I notice in Switzerland:

* Lots of police present on the roads, some serious patrolling, an art lost in the Netherlands.
* Car dealers are everywhere. Every larger town has at least a dozen car dealers, but also in villages.
* The Swiss seem to prefer Japanese cars. Most prominently Subaru, a car type not very common in other European countries. (at least not as much). Probably because most, if not all Subaru's are 4WD. 
* Parking fees are also everywhere, although they're not always very high. You can only enter Saas-Fee through a parking garage, the only road to the village simply ends in a parking garage before the entrance of the village.


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## Coccodrillo

Diesel-powered vehicles have been banned from Saas-Fee and Zermatt so even residents have to park their vehicle outside the village. The difference is that in Zermatt the parking is 6 km far from the village that is reachable by train (residents have a parking nearer to the village, but still outside it). Only small battery powered vehicles are allowed, except for emergencies and a a few services like garbage collection.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Why only diesel-powered vehicles? Is it because of the PM10 pollution? And what if a diesel car has the Diesel Particulate Filter?


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## Coccodrillo

Actually all private traffic is forbidden, so certainly also tradional battery-powered cars. Only small battery vehicles expressly built for Zermatt, Saas Fee and similar villages can be used like these: 










Source http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df2/df11032008.shtml










Source http://www.beautynewsnyc.com/travel...ltimate-hiking-trippart-ii-zermatt-to-geneva/

Another one:

http://www.tuttotrasporti.it/mondo_camion/articolo.cfm?codice=197079

http://www.tuttotrasporti.it/mondo_...colo=197079&tornaa=/mondo_camion/articolo.cfm


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## Verso

^ You missed the source of the Rhone.


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## Coccodrillo

But it is dying, this photo was taken in 1985, today is shorter 

http://www.swisseduc.ch/glaciers/alps/rhonegletscher/luftbilder-en.html?id=0


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## ChrisZwolle

Yep, it's a south-facing glacier. Those are melting the fastest. Around 1850, it reached the village of Gletsch, at 1800 m altitude, now it's closer to 2350 m altitude, you can barely see it from the pass (just a tiny glimpse). I once went to the Oberer Grindelwald Glacier, the tongue of that glacier was at just 1500 m altitude. It's a north-facing glacier, hence it receives less sunshine.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Suburbanist said:


> It IS a problem: is obliges you to pay a rail fare to a mode of transportation you otherwise wouldn't use. It restricts the right of free movement of European citizens. Such schemes should be banned as an human rights issue.


You are exaggerating a lot. If you don't want to get a train.

a)Don't go there.

b)Walk.


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

He can also bike there, skate, jog, jump or even ski, provided it's winter. The city is banning only one mode of transportation, there are hundreds more available.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A12 Bern - Fribourg - Vevey*

A photo set from the Swiss A12, from Bern to Vevey on Lake Geneva. The descent in the last few kilometers is quite spectacular. 

route:









1.

ch 237 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2.

ch 239 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.

ch 241 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

ch 246 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.

ch 247 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

ch 253 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

ch 255 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

ch 257 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

ch 258 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

ch 260 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

ch 262 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

ch 263 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

ch 265 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

ch 267 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

ch 268 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.

ch 269 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.

ch 271 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.

ch 272 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.

ch 274 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.

ch 277 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21.

ch 279 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22.

ch 281 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

23.

ch 282 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

24.

ch 283 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

25.

ch 284 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

26.

ch 285 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

27.

ch 287 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

28.

ch 289 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

29.

ch 290 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

30.

ch 291 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

31.

ch 292 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

32.

ch 293 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

33.

ch 296 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

34.

ch 297 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> 15.
> 
> ch 268 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


Rossens always reminded me of Roseanne.


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> In my opinion, a car-free town or city center should be in walking distance of an accessible parking spot. Zermatt is still 6 km from the end of the road in Täsch (been there a few days ago), which requires a train ride to the town.


Here in the USA, there are two places that I know of (there may be more) where cars are either totally prohibited or severely restricted, both are touristy islands (Mackinac Island in Michigan and Santa Catalina Island in California). On Mackinac Island, it is horses and bicycles only (some emergency services and road maintenance motor vehicles are allowed) and on Santa Catalina, it is mainly electric golf carts, bicycles and the very strictly limited number of actual private motor vehicles.

In both instances, ample parking is available at the landside ferry terminals.

Mike


----------



## Coccodrillo

Other two vehicles in Saas Fee (photos taken in 2008):


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A12 Bern - Fribourg - Vevey*
> 7.
> 
> ch 255 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
> 
> 16.
> 
> ch 269 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


Is it just me or is the old font more easily readable than new one? Yes, the new font looks better and more modern, but I can find and read a particular word faster with old font.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The first video of my Swiss video footage stockpile from September 2010. :cheers:

*A5 Neuchâtel*

A rather peculiar section of motorway, which has a short 2x2, grade separated, 60 km/h non-motorway section. It travels through the city of Neuchâtel and surroundings, and features a large number of tunnels. 

Double-click video to watch on Youtube in Full HD format!


----------



## Coccodrillo

Thank you. A tunnel is under construction to replace the non-motorway section (search for "Tunnel de Serrières" in the recent past posts).


----------



## Grisent

keber said:


> Is it just me or is the old font more easily readable than new one? Yes, the new font looks better and more modern, but I can find and read a particular word faster with old font.


Good point; I agree. The crucial difference seems to be in letterspacing. If only they had kept letterspacing in the new font as wide as it was previously, signs would be just as legible or even better.

And judging by Chris's video, the condensed version should perhaps be used more sparingly.

One thing about the video; sorry if that's been covered already. There are an awful lot of electronic displays on the gantries -- some larger, some smaller. What are they used for? And is it somehow connected to the fact that there are _"traffic lights ahead"_ warning signs all around?


----------



## Verso

I think the A5 under Neuchâtel is one of the coolest Swiss motorways. Plenty of tunnels/galleries and a lot of exits for the city makes it sort of 'cosmopolitan', even though the city isn't big.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Grisent said:


> One thing about the video; sorry if that's been covered already. There are an awful lot of electronic displays on the gantries -- some larger, some smaller. What are they used for? And is it somehow connected to the fact that there are _"traffic lights ahead"_ warning signs all around?


All tunnels have gates and can be closed in case of saturation, breakdowns or accidents. If that happens, traffic is restricted and regulated via traffic lights and overhead electronic displays warn you for that in advance. I think it's a standard system implemented at every tunnel in Switzerland. I don't think you'll ever find a traffic jam on A5.


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## x-type

Verso said:


> I think the A5 under Neuchâtel is one of the coolest Swiss motorways. Plenty of tunnels/galleries and a lot of exits for the city makes it sort of 'cosmopolitan', even though the city isn't big.


true  i call such a motorways "need for speed motorways" because they remind me on NFS routes


----------



## lpioe

ChrisZwolle said:


> 48. That mountain is in Liechtenstein.


Here the opposite view, from the top of this mountain to the A13 highway (A3 at bottom right):









Sarganserland Interchange at the bottom.

High-Res: http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4065/92853652.jpg


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## lpioe

About the video:
The small non-motorway section is quite strange. I wonder why they didn't at least sign it as a motorroad (Autostrasse). Or can slow vehicles and bikes ride on it?


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## Coccodrillo

It's the only acces to this small industrial-commercial area.


----------



## lpioe

Coccodrillo said:


> It's the only acces to this small industrial-commercial area.


Wouldn't it be much more useful to just build a underpass from Rue du Clos de Serrieres to the industrial area?
This 800m tunnels looks like a way too expensive project for the little use it will bring.


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## Coccodrillo

The Novena/Nufenen pass connect Valais and Ticino/Tessin cantons. Valais and Wallis are the same canton, one is the french word, the other the german's. This road was opened around 1963 and is opened only during the summer, but not always (just a few years ago it was closed in July because of...heavy snowfall).

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nufenen_Pass


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## ChrisZwolle

By the way, I saw Nufenen signed as Nufenen most of the time in Ticino. Novena was only used on a few signs.


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## ChrisZwolle

Touristic route to Fafleralp. If you like snow-capped mountains, check this video for sure!


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## nils16

Hello, Ive made some 3D Models for Google Earth Highways in Switzerland:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv-lR_c_cPw
Hope the Models appears next week in Google Earth.

Please rate the video and leave a comment


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## al_84

nils16 said:


> Hello, Ive made some 3D Models for Google Earth Highways in Switzerland:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv-lR_c_cPw
> Hope the Models appears next week in Google Earth.
> 
> Please rate the video and leave a comment


very nice


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## Coccodrillo

Some statistics about queues and traffic (PDF file only in German): http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentation/00109/00113/00491/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=35087


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## Coccodrillo

Works started for the construction of the service and safety tunnel of the Great San Bernard tunnel: http://www.tunnelbuilder.it/RELAZIONE-GSS-SETT-2010_ITA_011010.pdf (only in Italian)


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## ChrisZwolle

The A4 widening to a 2x2 "miniautobahn" (expressway) will be completed on October 22nd, 2010.

This is the road from Winterthur to Schaffhausen in Northern Switzerland.

http://www.news.admin.ch/dokumentation/00002/00015/?lang=de&msg-id=35603


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## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A4 widening to a 2x2 "miniautobahn" (expressway)


What exactly do you mean by "miniautobahn"? I've never heard such a term (nor did I know the A4 was being widened).


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## ChrisZwolle

It's a term invented by the Swiss. It's actually just a scaled-down version of the Autobahn, hence expressway. I doubt if there is much visual difference, some Autoroutes in Suisse have no shoulders (A16 for instance).


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## Coccodrillo

It doesn't have shoulders and only the northern part of the "motorway" between Andelfingen and Schaffhausen has been widened. Between Andelfingen and Winterthur it is still 1x2 but it will be widened in the future (works will not start before 2015).

http://www.miniautobahn.ch/

http://www.miniautobahn-fest.ch/



> Am 22. Oktober 2010 wird die Miniautobahn im Rahmen eines kleinen Festes für die Bevölkerung der Region durch Bundesrat Moritz Leuenberger, Vorsteher des eidgenössischen Departements für Umwelt, Verkehr, Energie und Kommunikation (UVEK), dem Verkehr übergeben. Der Anlass in Kleinandelfingen ist öffentlich und kostenlos zugänglich. *Es wird empfohlen, zur Anreise die öffentlichen Verkehrsmittel zu benutzen (Shuttlebus ab Bahnhof Marthalen).*


...it is suggested to use public transport


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## Verso

Which sign will be used on this "Miniautobahn"?


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## Coccodrillo

In Switzerland main roads are divided in three types and administrated by the central or the cantonal government. You can see a summary (in French) here: http://autoroutes.suisse.free.fr/ ==> Types de routes

First Class (motorways, like A1 and A2):
- 2 carriageways
- no level crossings
- usually with shoulders
- at least 2 lanes per direction
- reserved to motorized vehicles

Second Class (expressways, like A13):
- sometimes 2 carriageways
- no level crossings
- sometimes with shoulders
- reserved to motorized vehicles

Third Class (main national roads, like A28):
- few access from other roads
- if possible they don't cross villages
- usually same level crossings
- usually without shoulders

The same motorway can belong to different categories on different parts (like the A13).

As for the A4, I don't know. Today is certainly a second class road. Now it can be considered either a downgraded first class road (no choulders) or an upgraded second class (2x2 lanes).


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## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> ...it is suggested to use public transport


Isn't it policy to suggest this by default? I know in the Netherlands where they give free public transport passes to commuters during roadworks, even though the amount of people who use them is not more than a few hundred (out of 150.000 daily users).

It's the same with those P+R locations, an ANWB survey in the Netherlands found out only a few were actually heavily used, most of them were often over 50% empty and carpool areas are also consistently underused. It usually turns out that you have 5 carpool areas with 5 - 20 parked cars each, say 80 vehicles less on 80.000 vehicles per day.


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## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Isn't it policy to suggest this by default?


Usually when there are public festivities it is always suggested to use public transport.

In my city (Lugano, 100.000) inhabitants there are two small park&ride linked only by bus (300-400 places each) always full, also with people working nearby but not only. That's not much and Lugano is really car-dependant, but on other cities like Bern and Zürich car usage is much lowe and only 30 to 40% of trips inside the city are made by car. Between them rail share is around 80%. Going back to Lugano there are no wide roads and the city centre is small, so even if it is a small city it would be better if more people use public transport. Geography isn't easy as the few plain terrains have already been built up, so most new homes have been built on hills or mountains.

Swiss uses much trains and buses, that have around 25% of the passenger traffic and 45% of freight traffic (considering only internal freight traffic, rail has around 30%). The modal split for freight is comparable to the Netherlands, replacing the word "railways" with "waterways".


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I am wondering if all those tourist trains and buses are taken into the account of the Swiss modal split. Do you have any knowledge about that? The tourist trains and buses are often jam-packed.


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## Coccodrillo

They certainly are, but tourist trains are a little part of total traffic, and most of them are part of the public transport network (that is, accessible with any normal ticket or pass). There are few pure touristic railways, if one even if carrying mainly tourists also links villages it is not considered touristic and can have acces to subsidies (from the central government, only if it has a minimum level of traffic).

Most traffic comes from intercity and rural-to-city trips, and there railways perform quite well (Gotthard railway: 50% of passengers and 66% of freights, Simplon-Lötschberg even more as there is no motorway there).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> (Gotthard railway: 50% of passengers and 66% of freights)


In rough numbers; the equivalent of 5.000 individuals (10.000 travellers) or the equivalent of 4.000 trucks per day. Not all that much, it sounds more in percentages than it actually is. 

Approximately 3.600 trucks use the Gotthard tunnel daily. That sounds much, but it isn't, it's comparable with a low-trafficked motorway of 20.000 vpd and a moderate truck share (LT/HT) of 15%. 3.600 trucks is the same as 1 truck per minute each direction on average. Hardly the advertised "truck avalanche".



> The modal split for freight is comparable to the Netherlands, replacing the word "railways" with "waterways".


I agree. Bulk freight and containers are generally transported by ship or rail in the Netherlands. I am actually rather sceptic about the shift that is predicted from road to rail freight. Some products are more convenient / efficient to ship by rail than the other, but many people see this in black and white: OR rail OR road. It's much more diverse than that.


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## Coccodrillo

3.600 daily trucks are not much compared to other roads like the Dutch A15 (20.000 trucks I think), but 40 km of continuos slopes up to 5% in parts is not really like a flat and wide plain. And these trucks mostly are not for local traffic so trains can be an alternative.


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## Coccodrillo

Exactly 578.000 out of 973.000 trucks that used the road tunnel in 2008 were only transiting (origin and destination both outside Switzerland). The others 395.000 were for internal or import-export traffic.


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## Coccodrillo

I don't want it  Railways are always a better solution 

(irritating Suburbanist-style reply, I may reply seriously later)


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes, let tourist wait 5 hours for a tunnel is a very good way to advertise for tourism 

Anyway, I don't believe the railway tunnel will relieve the Gotthard Road Tunnel in any way. Truck traffic is already fairly low and people on holiday really do not shift to rail - otherwise the Lötschberg and Simplon tunnels would've been much more popular for people en-route to Italy.


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## Suburbanist

^^ I think after the Gotthard Base Tunnel is completed and operational, and most trucks are diverted to rail, the Swiss will become more receptive for new road tunnels and vote for them in a new referendum.


----------



## Coccodrillo

There are a lot of transport capacity bottlenecks in Switzerland and the Gotthard road tunnel is not the worse since queues are huge but do not happens every day and does not limit traffic, "only" slow down it. There are a lot of other railway and road bottlenecks where capacity problems are more problematic.

Transiting trucks are not as much as in the Netherlands but there they don't bring any benefit apart a tax (that is lower than the toll on Fréjus and Mont Blanc for trucks). And most of these trucks run for 500-800-1000 km so grouping them in trains is possible.

Anyway trains are still quite well used. Despite the deterioration of service since the Cisalpino era I took a Milan-Zürich train at 15.10: it was full, with a few people standing, so trains are still used despite the poor service (not very frequent and with constant delays). And since the opening of the new Lötschberg rail tunnel in december 2007 traffic increased by 30% in two years.



Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I think after the Gotthard Base Tunnel is completed and operational, and most trucks are diverted to rail, the Swiss will become more receptive for new road tunnels and vote for them in a new referendum.


I think the same, but such referendum would made sense only if it also proposes a way to finance it. If not nothing would change. As I said there are a lot of critical bottlenecks (both for rail and roads) with few if any chanches to be solved quickly today.


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## ChrisZwolle

My list of Swiss projects (not currently U/C):

* 2nd tube Gotthard Tunnel
* widening A1 Genève - Lausanne to 2x3
* widening A1 Bern - Oftringen to 2x3
* construction of A4a between Baar and A3
* widening A8 Spiez - Interlaken to 2x2
* construction A13 - A14 (Austria) link


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## Coccodrillo

Point per point:

1) will not happen anytime soon, voters refused it in 1989, 1999 and 2003, forbidden by the 1994 vote (Initiative of the Alps) (see here)

2) Swiss voted against this project in 2003 (Avanti initiative), discussion of increasing rail capacity still pending (not funded)

3) Swiss voted against this project in 2003 (Avanti initiative), discussion of increasing rail capacity still pending (partly funded, but infrastructure construction is not plannet for very soon)

4) there were planned two tunnels, one for rail and one for road (single track the first, 1x2 the second), both abandoned

5) not even planned (the railway is obviously single track and near capacity limit)

6) I agree, but this will not happen anytime soon

The "Avanti" project is interesting, because it grouped in a single vote the projects covering most of the population (increase of capacity on the first three motorways you mentioned, plus some money for public transport), but it has been refused.

(it was not the first "Avanti" project to have been refused, but a modified version proposed by the government - citizens may propose nearly any sort of new alw or project, then the governement can suggest modifications to the initial proposition - so citizens in the end vote on the first proposition, on the modified one, or on both)


----------



## Suissetralia

ChrisZwolle said:


> My list of Swiss projects (not currently U/C):
> 
> * 2nd tube Gotthard Tunnel
> * widening A1 Genève - Lausanne to 2x3
> * widening A1 Bern - Oftringen to 2x3
> * construction of A4a between Baar and A3
> * widening A8 Spiez - Interlaken to 2x2
> * construction A13 - A14 (Austria) link


The problem is that there are also many necessary rail infrastructures, and there's not even enough money to finance them, let alone roads, which should be last on priority unless there's a very particular problematic point. For instance, before widening A1 between Lausanne and Genève, something which is really relevant, I would first add the third rail track between both cities; that should have top importance, yet there's not even funds for that, partially because the Gotthard BT is consuming a lot federal resources.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Rail and road improvements do not cater for the same user base. There is some overlapping, but usually the "common user base" of both rail and road arteries is not that large to the point you can think of investing in one to solve the needs of others.

Alpine passes are an geography oddity. Alps impose an otherwise artificial cut on capillarity and limit connectivity points to the passes (or tunnels for that matter) . This is not the case - for instance - in the Genève - Lausanne area, where you have a myriad of origin-destination vectors, some optimally served by rail, some optimally served by private car and some (usually not many) who can be reasonably served by both options or a combination of both depending on reasonable possible choices of increased capacity.

However, for most situations the best possible railway service cannot efficiently replace the need for extra highway lanes (and vice-versa) , if you are to keep the same housing, development, shopping and living patterns (doing otherwise is malicious communist social engineering).


----------



## Coccodrillo

With big volumes of traffic rail is more efficient, so in the case of Genève-Lausanne and Bern-Zürich it should have priority. Also because there are already motorways, but the railway still has only the two tracks built in the XIX century.


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## ChrisZwolle

http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/wisse...iautobahn_a4_zuercher_weinland_1.8103246.html

The 11 km "miniautobahn" has been opened between Kleinandelfingen and Fluringen, providing faster and safer travel between Winterthur and Schaffhausen, northern Switzerland.


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## Verso

We want pics.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This is how it looked in June 2009 


IMG_4545 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


IMG_4552 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


IMG_4555 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Probably the most awesome scenery I have ever captured on video....


----------



## Verso

^^ Awesome; too bad I never drove there. How did you find out about it?


----------



## hofburg

from valley of Rhone, 600m altitude to 2200m. :nuts:
great view, but too bad the lake is artificial.


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## Coccodrillo

Some informations about motorways around Uri canton: http://www.afbn.ch/ ==> Das Gebiet


----------



## lpioe

ChrisZwolle said:


> Probably the most awesome scenery I have ever captured on video....


Beautiful.
How do you find out about these places? I'm from Switzerland and have never heard about Lac de Moiry or Fafleralp.
I bought a motorcycle last week and definately want to check out all these "hidden gems" next spring / summer


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, these points are not really well-known. Sure, locals know it, but the most you will see from Lac de Moiry is a small sign in Grimentz that points to the barrage or lac (not sure) de Moiry. If you don't know how it looks, you probably won't visit it.

I scout these areas beforehand with Google Earth.


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## vatse

*A9 between Villeneuve and Vevey*

Start of the climb from Villeneuve up to the mountain side

IMG_6658 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6660 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6661 by vatse, on Flickr

The road is built on the side of Alps rising directly from Lake Geneva

IMG_6662 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6663 by vatse, on Flickr

Montreux at the background, Castle of Chillon is situated just below the road on lake

IMG_6665 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6666 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6667 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6669 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6670 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6673 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6674 by vatse, on Flickr

At the background you can see Jura Mountains situated some 35-40 km from here

IMG_6675 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6677 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6678 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6679 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6680 by vatse, on Flickr

Junction of A9 and A12 with exit to Vevey

IMG_6681 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6682 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6683 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6684 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6685 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

*A12 from Vevey to Bern*

There is steep climb up from A9

IMG_6686 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6687 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6688 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6689 by vatse, on Flickr

Watershed between Rhine and Rhone and between Nord Sea and Mediterranean Sea

IMG_6690 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6691 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6692 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6694 by vatse, on Flickr

Reservoir of Gruyere

IMG_6695 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6697 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6699 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6700 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6701 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6702 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6703 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6704 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6705 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6706 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

IMG_6707 by vatse, on Flickr

Bridge over Sarine/Saane river, border of French and German Switzerland

IMG_6708 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6709 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6710 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6711 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6712 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6714 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6715 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6717 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6718 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6719 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6720 by vatse, on Flickr

Junction of A12 and A1, end of A12

IMG_6721 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## lpioe

Nice pics!
Looks like a very scenic route between Villeneuve and Vevey.

I'm surprised Geneva isn't signed at all at the junction in Vevey, it's less than 100km away and the most important city in the Romandy.


----------



## vatse

A1 near Bern

IMG_6722 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6723 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6724 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6725 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6726 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

lpioe said:


> Nice pics!
> Looks like a very scenic route between Villeneuve and Vevey.
> 
> I'm surprised Geneva isn't signed at all at the junction in Vevey, it's less than 100km away and the most important city in the Romandy.


Thanks!
The motorway between Vevey and Lausanne through vineyards of Lavaux is also very scenic but sadly I have very few pictures from this stretch. Same about ordinary road between two towns down on the shore of lake.


----------



## vatse

*A8 between Interlaken and Meiringen*
This road is mainly expressway along the Lake of Brienz

Stretch of motorway near Interlaken

IMG_6727 by vatse, on Flickr

Beginning of expressway

IMG_6728 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6729 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6730 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6731 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6732 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6733 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6734 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6735 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6736 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6737 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6738 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6739 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6740 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6741 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6742 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6743 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6747 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6748 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6749 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6750 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6751 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6753 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6754 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

Small stretch (about 3 km) of divided highway on *road 8 between Schwyz and Pfäffikon*.


sveits8 by vatse, on Flickr

Start of divided highway in Biberbrugg

IMG_6937 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6938 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6939 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6940 by vatse, on Flickr

Business-park of Sunnegg

IMG_6941 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6942 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6943 by vatse, on Flickr

Business-park of Stutxhöchi

IMG_6944 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6945 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6946 by vatse, on Flickr

Village of Schindellegi

IMG_6947 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6948 by vatse, on Flickr

End of divided highway

IMG_6949 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

*By-pass of road 10* between A1 and A5
It's the shortest road between Bern and Neuchatel and so it's quite busy. There were plans to build it wholly as a expressway but currently it's missing a link between two opened stretches by-passing Müntschemier. No idea if there are still plans to build this stretch. Most of the traffic is running from Ins to Murten to take the motorway A1 so there are currently no problems with traffic in Müntschemier.

sveits10 by vatse, on Flickr

Exit from A1 to by-pass of Kerzers

IMG_6984 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6985 by vatse, on Flickr

The by-pass of Kerzers is built as 2x2 expressway. As most of the transit to A5 is using road from Murten to Ins to connect to the expressway this stretch of expressway is quite empty.

IMG_6986 by vatse, on Flickr

Exit to Kerzers

IMG_6987 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6988 by vatse, on Flickr

End of 2x2 road. The missing link to Ins should be going directly from here but the road is turning sharply to the right to arrive to road 10.

IMG_6989 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6990 by vatse, on Flickr

End of expressway west of Kerzers.

IMG_6991 by vatse, on Flickr

Start of expressway near Ins

IMG_6992 by vatse, on Flickr

This stretch was built later than by-pass of Kerzers and is 1+1 road.

IMG_6993 by vatse, on Flickr

It's running partly next to the railway. You can see Jura mountains in front of you.

IMG_6994 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6995 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6996 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6997 by vatse, on Flickr

Exit of Gampelen

IMG_6998 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6999 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7000 by vatse, on Flickr

Exit of Gals. There is a ringroad on an expressway for this exit.

IMG_7001 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7002 by vatse, on Flickr

End of expressway before the bridge of Zihlkanal. As all the local traffic is also using this bridge it's not signed as a expressway.

IMG_7003 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7004 by vatse, on Flickr

Exit to Thielle-Wavre. Direct to motorway A5.

IMG_7005 by vatse, on Flickr

Junction with A5

IMG_7006 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

Lovely pics! Transit has been avoiding Müntschemier for quite some time, so I've already forgotten that the Kerzers bypass is 4-laned; I thought it was a 2-lane expressway/motorroad.


----------



## lpioe

Good pics again.

Roundabout on expressway is just weak 
Didn't know they existed on swiss motorroads. Are there any others?
I know of a left turn exit somewhere in Schaffhausen, still better than a roundabout.


----------



## vatse

There are even some roundabouts on motorways in Switzerland 

One is at the connection of A5 and A16 near Biel/Bienne. I can post a picture of it some day. It's probably staying like this until motorway around Biel/Bienne is completed. And it's really signed as a motorway at this roundabout.

Another is on A7 near Kreuzlingen. Not 100 % sure if this part of the road is signed as motorway or expressway.

There may be some more places like this.


----------



## vatse

Some pictures from *A5* near and under Neuchatel


IMG_7007 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7008 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7009 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7010 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7011 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

IMG_7012 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7013 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7015 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7017 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7018 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7019 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

*Road 20* between Neuchatel and La Chaux-de-Fonds. It's cantonal motorway/expressway which is connecting two biggest towns of canton of Neuchatel.

Road starts from A5 in Neuchatel and starts to climb through the city up to Jura mountains.

IMG_7020 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7021 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7022 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7024 by vatse, on Flickr

Soon it arrives to Jura and has to go through Seyon Gorges. The lines to north are going through the gorge but lines to south are running mostly through tunnels parallel to gorge.

IMG_7025 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7026 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7027 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7028 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7029 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

IMG_7030 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7031 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7032 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7033 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7034 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7035 by vatse, on Flickr

We have reached through first range of Jura and reached to Val de Ruz. There is castle of Valangin just beside the motorway.

IMG_7036 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

Val de Ruz

IMG_7037 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7038 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7039 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7040 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7041 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7042 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7043 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7044 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

The next range of Jura is just in front of us

IMG_7045 by vatse, on Flickr

And now on the left

IMG_7046 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7047 by vatse, on Flickr

The end of motorway and start of expressway

IMG_7048 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7049 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7050 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7051 by vatse, on Flickr

The crossing of next range is through tunnels. Longest one is Tunnel of Vue des Alpes, 5120 m.

IMG_7052 by vatse, on Flickr

Small exit between two tunnels

IMG_7053 by vatse, on Flickr

We have crossed this range of Jura and almost arrived to La Chaux-de-Fonds.

IMG_7054 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7055 by vatse, on Flickr

End of expressway

IMG_7056 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

Awesome road. Gotta love Switzerland. :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Mental note: drive this road to La Chaux-de-Fonds next time I am in Switzerland.


----------



## Coccodrillo

This road (together with others) has been recently transferred from the canton of Neuchâtel to the central government, so it will probably renumbered with an A soon or later (maybe A20?).


----------



## vatse

Coccodrillo said:


> This road (together with others) has been recently transferred from the canton of Neuchâtel to the central government, so it will probably renumbered with an A soon or later (maybe A20?).


You have any link for these news? Are they planning to make it a toll road with vignette also?


----------



## vatse

ChrisZwolle said:


> Mental note: drive this road to La Chaux-de-Fonds next time I am in Switzerland.


It was my first time to Swiss Jura (except A2 and A3 through mountains) and it was highly positive experience. Lots of beautiful roads, very varied landscapes, great places for hiking and very very few tourists.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think the Jura Mountains are highly underrated. Most people of course want to see the giant snow-capped mountains and glaciers, but the Jura itself would be pretty scenic in any other country.


----------



## Coccodrillo

vatse said:


> You have any link for these news? Are they planning to make it a toll road with vignette also?


The roads transfered from the cantonals to the central government are:

- H21, Martigny - Grand-St-Bernard (maybe it will be partly classified "A21")
- H15, Schaffhouse - Thayngen
- H6, Berne/Schönbühl - Bienne (maybe it will be classified "A6")
- H20, Neuchâtel - Le Locle - Col des Roches (maybe it will be classified "A20")
- H223, Spiez - Kandersteg (Lötschberg tunnel northern ramp)
- H509, Goppenstein - Gampel (Lötschberg tunnel southern ramp)
- H338, (Hirzel) Baar - Wädenswil
- H394, Mendrisio - Stabio / Gaggiolo
- H406, H13, Bellinzone - Locarno (maybe it will be classified "A13")
- H13, Kreuzlingen - Meggenhus
- semi-autoroute cantonale A53, Brüttisellen - Wetzikon - Rüti
- semi-autoroute cantonale A53, Rüti ZH - Reichenburg
- H8, St-Gall - Winkeln - Appenzell
- H18, Delémont Est - Hagnau (maybe it will be classified "A" near Basel)
- H17, Niederurnen - Glaris
- H2, Pratteln - Liestal
- H5, Aarau - Aarau-Est
- H417, H3, Thusis - Silvaplana
- H10, Thielle - Morat (maybe it will be partly classified "A")

"A" roads will certainly be tolled. But I have no recent news about these changes.

More infos on this french forum and documents linked there: http://forum.sara-infras.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=5447


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Switzerland should re-organize their road numbering system. Few roads have numbers nowadays, especially if they're not motorways. Non-motorway numbers are almost never signposted. Basically any valley road could get a 3-digit road number. More important routes could get 1 and 2-digit road numbers.


----------



## Coccodrillo

I totally agree. If possible with a logical system, if not at least they should simply signpost today's administrative numbers (they don't have any logic, non-national roads have simply received a number starting from around 100 when the authorities decided to number them, so numbers in a specified area are roughly around the same group, ie Canton Ticino has numbers more or less between 380 and 410). These numbers are sometimes shown on OpenStreetMap, otherwise they are completely unknown to the public.


----------



## vatse

Small stretch of motorway on *road 20* between Le Locle and La-Chaux-de-Fonds.

It's not a motorway yet.

IMG_7251 by vatse, on Flickr

Exit to Le Cret-de-Locle

IMG_7252 by vatse, on Flickr

Beginning of motorway. The motorway is only about 1,2 km long.

IMG_7253 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7254 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7255 by vatse, on Flickr

End of the motorway

IMG_7257 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

^^ How old is that "motorway" (would be better called expressway)?



ChrisZwolle said:


> I think the Jura Mountains are highly underrated. Most people of course want to see the giant snow-capped mountains and glaciers, but the Jura itself would be pretty scenic in any other country.


Jura is beautiful, but underdeveloped (for Swiss standards at least). That's why most people don't like it so much.


----------



## vatse

Verso said:


> ^^ How old is that "motorway" (would be better called expressway)?
> 
> Jura is beautiful, but underdeveloped (for Swiss standards at least). That's why most people don't like it so much.


It was opened at the end of year 2007. At most of the maps it's showed like a expressway so it was a surprise to find a motorway sign on this road.


----------



## vatse

*A16* from Biel/Bienne to Sonceboz.
It's part of motorway partly under construction to Delemont and onto Belfort in France.

Beginning of road near Biel/Bienne

IMG_6950 by vatse, on Flickr

It starts to climb to Jura mountains.

IMG_6951 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6952 by vatse, on Flickr

Road is using Taubenloch Gorges to cross the first range of mountains. First part of motorway is ending just where the slip road is joining the main road.

IMG_6953 by vatse, on Flickr

The part of road through Taubenloch Gorges is not a motorway or even a expressway but ordinary divided road as it's used by all the local traffic and bicycles also.

IMG_6954 by vatse, on Flickr

North bound traffic is using road following gorges. It's built more or less on the same place where have been roads from Roman times until today. South bound traffic is using new parallel road which is shorter thanks to many tunnels.

IMG_6955 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6957 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6958 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

IMG_6959 by vatse, on Flickr

There is huge cement factory of Vigier in Reuchenette.

IMG_6960 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6961 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6962 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6963 by vatse, on Flickr

Beginning of expressway

IMG_6964 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6965 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6966 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6967 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

End of expressway and beginning of motorway.

IMG_6968 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6969 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6970 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6971 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_6972 by vatse, on Flickr

Exit of Sonceboz.

IMG_6973 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

^^ That's undoubtedly one of the most interesting roads in CH. Thanks for the pix.  Are there plans to ever declare that 4-lane road a motorway/expressway?


----------



## vatse

Verso said:


> ^^ That's undoubtedly one of the most interesting roads in CH. Thanks for the pix.  Are there plans to ever declare that 4-lane road a motorway/expressway?


I doubt it. This would mean that they have to build a new road for local traffic and bicycles and it wouldn't be the cheapest thing.


----------



## vatse

And now A16 back from Sonceboz to Biel/Bienne

IMG_7264 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7265 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7266 by vatse, on Flickr

End of motorway. Start of ordinary divided road.

IMG_7267 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7268 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7269 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7270 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7271 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

IMG_7272 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7273 by vatse, on Flickr

Beginning of motorway. All the local traffic and bicycles have to turn right.

IMG_7274 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7275 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7276 by vatse, on Flickr

We have crossed Jura mountains.

IMG_7277 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7278 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7279 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7280 by vatse, on Flickr

Junction of A16 and A5. The exit to the right would go to future A16 bypassing Biel/Bienne through tunnels.

IMG_7281 by vatse, on Flickr

It's one of the ring road motorway junctions in Switzerland. The construction site in front of us is beginning of future tunnel bypassing Biel/Bienne as A16. When it's completed you can continue from here directly to Bern.

IMG_7282 by vatse, on Flickr

From the junction you can currently drive only to A5 and then take a exit to Biel/Bienne and continue to Neuchatel or Bern.

IMG_7283 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7284 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

Road to mountain of Chasseral in Jura. With 1607 meters it has the 3-4th place among mountains of Swiss Jura. It's one lane road with frequent places to pass the ongoing traffic. It's opened for every kind of vehicles. The only limit is weight limit of 26 t. It was a private toll road but it was purchased by canton of Bern some years ago and now it's free to use for everyone.

Up from the north

Chasseral03 by vatse, on Flickr


Chasseral04 by vatse, on Flickr


Chasseral05 by vatse, on Flickr

Down to the south

Chasseral52 by vatse, on Flickr


Chasseral53 by vatse, on Flickr


Chasseral54 by vatse, on Flickr


Chasseral55 by vatse, on Flickr


Chasseral56 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Gotthard Pass has been closed today. Furka, Susten and Klausen passes have already been closed in october.


----------



## Verso

There's also a road to Mont Tendre (the highest mountain in Swiss Jura at 1,679 m). There were two hikers at the top when I was there. They were quite shocked to see a Slovenian plate up there.


----------



## vatse

Some roads from Swiss Jura.

One of the small roads coming down steeply to Lake Biel

IMG_7191 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7192 by vatse, on Flickr

Road 10 with view to Creux du Van

IMG_7229 by vatse, on Flickr

Morning fog or just one of the low clouds on road 10 at Val de Travers

IMG_7230 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7232 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7234 by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## vatse

Some more from road 10


IMG_7235 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7236 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7238 by vatse, on Flickr

Road 30 at the valley of St-Imier

IMG_7259 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7260 by vatse, on Flickr


IMG_7261 by vatse, on Flickr

Road near Le Locle

Le Locle by vatse, on Flickr


----------



## Coccodrillo

Verso said:


> That's just crazy! They should build a second tube, and end of story.


For a short new, flat 1x2 road without major work discussions are going on since ages, just imagine how long a 17 km tunnel would take to build.



Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Maybe they will change opinion about this European-most-stupid transportation law in first place (the one forbidding "capacity increasing").


I doubt this will happen before having reached the 650.000 trucks objective.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> That's just crazy! They should build a second tube, and end of story.


The Swiss likes to pwn the rest of Europe by acting like übernimby's.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ only against roads ^^

(often, also for internal traffic, but not always)


----------



## Des

Suissetralia said:


> Following the french version, there is really no margin to doubt about it:
> 
> i.e. building new roads which would attract existing traffic from the four defined transalpine routes is considered an increase in capacity, and so is considered the addition of more lanes to existing roads. A new tunnel would fall under the latter definition so it's clearly forbidden to build it. But renovation works are clearly allowed:


I really don't get the politicians and people who put such a rule in place. The population of Switzerland has grown with 20% in the last 30-35 years. This means your infrastructure has to expand or adapt as well to cope with the increased demand for capacity on the road and in the public transport and the increased mobility. 

However this policy seems completely aimed at discouraging transit traffic to use the Swiss roads. But in the next few years / decades the growing Swiss population alone is enough to congest the roads and the Alpine passes/tunnels.


----------



## Suissetralia

Des said:


> I really don't get the politicians and people who put such a rule in place. The population of Switzerland has grown with 20% in the last 30-35 years. This means your infrastructure has to expand or adapt as well to cope with the increased demand for capacity on the road and in the public transport and the increased mobility.
> 
> However this policy seems completely aimed at discouraging transit traffic to use the Swiss roads. But in the next few years / decades the growing Swiss population alone is enough to congest the roads and the Alpine passes/tunnels.


It's not politicians. This measure was introduced after it was approved by referendum. 

Anyway, yes, you are right, infrastructure has to expand or adapt. But who says the increased need for mobility has to come from the same mode of transport? After all, nobody's banned the construction of other infrastructures but roads, in other words, it is aknowledged that more infrastructure is needed but it is being provided by rail instead of by expanding roads, and it should work both for domestic traffic and for international traffic.

I don't think having an ever-expanding road is the best solution. It might seem less comfortable for trucks to get on a train than drive by themselves all the way through the country, but I'm sure truck drivers will end up getting use to it and the result is much better for traffic safety and for the environment. It's almost a take it or leave it approach, but after all it's the Swiss who are paying for the GBT without anybody's help so I don't think it's very hard to understand that the country should have the right to establish its own rules, and if the people has voted for it then domestic traffic should be the last problem on the list.

Although I'm realizing this discussion is being repeated over and over again in this section of the forum


----------



## Coccodrillo

Number of broken vehicles and accidents in the tunnel:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Here's another modality to get down the Grimsel Pass:


----------



## Coccodrillo

Furka shuttle, 18 April 2010.


































Eyholz tunnel portal, A9 Brig-Simplon side, on the same day (the small left bore is for the ventilation equipment).


----------



## Coccodrillo

Coccodrillo said:


> Some pictures of the Lucomagno-Lukmanier road: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukmanier_Pass


Lukmaneir Pass closed until further notice because of snow.


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## Coccodrillo

Bart_LCY said:


> ^^ And a video of this particular route:


From the railway forum.


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## Coccodrillo

The Gotthard Rail Tunnel and the national road 2 above it. The train and the green light of the signal are the only colours different from white, grey and light blue.










Again the railway and the N2.










First and second bridge of the N2, as seen from the railway bridge.










The Urnerloch, one of the first Swiss road tunnels. It was built as a replacement of the path running above the gorges of the Reuss river from October 1707 to August 1708. It is long 64 metres and it was originally 2.4 m wide and 2.7 m high.










All photos taken the 27th December 2010.


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## Fargo Wolf

Coccodrillo said:


> From the railway forum.


I'm curious to know how the cyclists were accommodated on the shuttle train. Did they go with the motorcyclists on the same wagon, or was a sweprate wagon provided?


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## Coccodrillo

They travel in the passenger coach together with motorcyclists. Bicycles are also allowed also on regular passenger trains (I don't know the exact rules, but often these trains run with a low floor coach with hooks for bikes).

Both services run hourly, except the car shuttle which is half-ourly from Friday utnil Monday.

Small trucks and buses can also be carried (maximum 3 m high and 2.5 m wide).


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## Traveldieks

*Switserland Pictures*

few photo's of my trip to CH


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## Coccodrillo

Simplon road (between Gondo and Iselle) closed because of a landfall, train shuttle service may have been increased.


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## Coccodrillo

The road still closed, only the train shuttle is available.

It is not known how long the road will remain closed. The landslide is between the Gondo (CH, VS) and Iselle (IT, VB), but I don't know of it is in Italy or Switzerland. Train shuttles have been increased from 12 to 23 (one every 30 minutes), offering a capacity of 1.000 small vehicles per day (trucks are not allowed because too high for the railway wagons used).

The shuttle is 30 minutes faster than the road, obviously excluding waiting time. There is a shuttle every 90 minutes, in the future service may be increased to a train every 60 minutes. Its traffic is 140.000 cars per year on average.

A small photo: http://www.cdt.ch/confederazione/cronaca/37022/strada-del-sempione-interrotta.html


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## ChrisZwolle

Crossing the Simplon from Brig to Iselle by road can be done in 25 - 30 minutes. The problem is the interval on the shuttle train is too big, which means the road is nearly always faster, unless you arrive in Brig 10 minutes before the train departs. Besides that, the Simplon is easy to drive, even HGV's can cross it.


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## Coccodrillo

The rail tunnel will be partly closed for renovation in 2012-2013, the service could be increased only later. But it is still planned.


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## Coccodrillo

The Simplon road has been reopened today at midday. The landslide was in Italy.


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## marco1980

I would like to drive through the Switzerland this summer while I will drive to Spain. I want to visit Davos, Andermatt, Sion, Martigny. What can you say about difficulty of the road 27, 28, 19, 9? What is the technical condition of these roads?
And second question: has someone know any cheap place for rest in the night near Martigny?


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## Coccodrillo

Like this: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=510148&page=55

(photos taken in June 2009 travelling in the opposite direction)


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## Verso

Great snowy pics! Lucomagno/Lukmanier Pass is one of few in Switzerland I never drove over.


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## Coccodrillo

It is worth during winter as it is one of the few not being closed.

If one has 50 euro + 9 for each passenger the Oberalp shuttle is also an option. Or the train alone (9 euro each way).


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## cinxxx

Coccodrillo said:


> Like this: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=510148&page=55
> 
> (photos taken in June 2009 travelling in the opposite direction)


Wonderful. Thanks.
Switzerland is very beautiful :cheers:


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## Coccodrillo

Traffic flowing in opposite directions without barriers on the A2 in Luzern (29 January 2011).



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Fargo Wolf

The lane control lights need to be moved, so that they are over the center of each lane. The way they are positioned now, is kinda confusing.


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## Coccodrillo

As I have already written, some roads have been transferred from the cantons to the central government.

Some informations of these changes can be found here, as usual in the three main national languages.

http://www.admin.ch/ch/i/gg/pc/documents/1573/Bericht_Vorlage.pdf (Italian)
http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/gg/pc/documents/1573/Bericht_Vorlage.pdf (French)
http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/gg/pc/documents/1573/Bericht_Vorlage.pdf (German)

A map can be found at the end of each document. Not all these green roads are motorways (class 1) or autostrasse (class 2), so not all will receive the "red diamond" on signs. Only class 1 and 2 roads may receive them, possible new numbers are A10, A17, A18, A20, A21, A22, A32, A34, A38 (or at least a part of them).

These will not be new motorways, for road users the only effect will be a change in numbering and signs, if that happens. Swiss numbering scheme is quite illogic and confusing, and most numbers are used only for adminsitrative purposes (and on OpenStreetMap!).


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## rower2000

Coccodrillo said:


> A map can be found at the end of each document. Not all these green roads are motorways (class 1) or autostrasse (class 2), so not all will receive the "red diamond" on signs. Only class 1 and 2 roads may receive them, possible new numbers are A10, A17, A18, A20, A21, A22, A32, A34, A38 (or at least a part of them).


Any idea why the motorway sections of N34 (today's A53, Zürcher Oberlandautobahn) are only classified as 2nd class rather than 1st class? It's a complete s2+2s cross section with 120 km/h speed limit after all.


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## Coccodrillo

I don't know. Also other motorways are (partly) classified as second class apparently without reason.


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## Coccodrillo

New road with an apparently non fundamental tunnel:

http://www.ag.ch/staffeleggstrasse/de/pub/

http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...10795,8.065821&spn=0.004966,0.009645&t=k&z=17


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## Zagor666

Here stand´s nothing


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## Zagor666

Swiss A 13 : Bellinzona-Raststätte Viamala/Thusis - Summer 09 :banana:


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## Coccodrillo

Great St Bernard Pass reopening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO3tiQKgLYk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7TiNhi0Fhc

(I haven't watched all of them to say if it's the Italian or the Swiss side)


----------



## -Pino-

The machine says "ANAS Aosta", which suggests that it is the Italian side. Towards the end of the second part, you see a yellow machine coming from the other side. Must be the Swiss machine approaching from the North.

Great movie !


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## Uppsala

I like A13. It's nice. Sometimes I take the A13 instead of A2 when Im going through Switzerland.


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## Coccodrillo

16 parkings for trucks, with just toilets and no other services, will be built in the next years. 12 of them already exist or are in planning (like the check points where trucks are inspected), and will be enlarged.

Press release: http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentation/00109/00113/00491/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=38059

Map: http://www.news.admin.ch/NSBSubscriber/message/attachments/22367.pdf


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Huge accident on A4 south of Zürich. Apparently in the work zone.




















When are these works finished? They were working there already in 2009 when I drove from Zürich to Luzern.


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## Coccodrillo

A drunk man lost one wheel of his Mercedes and ran on three wheels for about 5 km before the car finally broke down completely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCpCbrhYgdI


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## Zagor666

Visp-Zermatt or to be 100% correct Visp-Täsch,so to say the road to reach Matterhorn :banana:


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## ChrisZwolle

I drove there last September. I was a bit disappointed, because I didn't planned to use the train to Zermatt, and you can't see the Matterhorn from the Visp - Täsch road.


----------



## Zagor666

Too bad,you realy missed something.Zermatt itself is a real beauty and the Matterhorn is a legend anyway :cheers:


----------



## Coccodrillo

Local residents (and taxis) are allowed up to the outskirts of Zermatt, a few km uphill than Täsch, but even them cannot enter Zermatt itself. The only allowed combustion engine vehicles are garbage trucks, emergency vehicles, and some other special vehicles (but even construction materials for new buildings are transported by the small battery vehicles).

12 € return for the train shuttle is quite much, but as there are many people willing to pay for it they have no reason to lower ticket prices.


----------



## thun

I guess the residents pay a lot less for a ticket?


----------



## Coccodrillo

I doubt, as residents don't have to take the train and can reach the entrance of Zermatt by car (but cannot reach their house).

However, standard fare system for swiss public transport vehicles also apply to the Zermatt shuttle trains (half-fare card, general abonment, ...).

Finally I think some hotels may give discount cards for the train shuttle to their guests.


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## Zagor666

Well,the easiest and the most beautiful way is to walk from Täsch to Zermatt


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## Coccodrillo

Gotthard shuttle in Airolo in 2001.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Coccodrillo

Red = roads transferred to the central government: http://www.news.admin.ch/NSBSubscriber/message/attachments/22575.jpg

From http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentation/00109/00113/00491/index.html?lang=fr&msg-id=38384 (it's nothing really new, so I don't translate)


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## thun

Does that mean the end of all the Kantonale Autobahnen?


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## ChrisZwolle

At least it means the number of vignette-obligatory roads increases. However, I don't see this as a major problem as you can hardly avoid the vignette-obligatory roads anyway.


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## Zagor666

From Thusis direction south-east,what is this gonna be?A Autobahn?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Only the owner will change, the type of road will remain the same. This means than the existing first class cantonal roads (autobahnen/autoroutes/autostrade) and second class roads (autostrassen) will be tolled with the vignette, while the third class roads (standard 1x2 roads, but usually quite wide) will be untolled.

Thusis-St Moritz is and will still be third class road.

The text confirms also that the vignette price will increase from 40 to 100 CHF, and that a two month vignette will be introduced for 40 CHF, but this was already known.


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## Des

Coccodrillo said:


> The text confirms also that the vignette price will increase from 40 to 100 CHF, and that a two month vignette will be introduced for 40 CHF, but this was already known.


When?


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## Coccodrillo

I don't know exactly, but I think not before 2014 or so.


----------



## Uppsala

It's still a missing part between Switzerland and Austria. They should have a motorway between A13 in Switzerland and the Austrian motorway A14. Is there any plans to build that missing part?


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## ChrisZwolle

Rheintalautobahn.

The least they could do is build a direct connector between the Swiss A13 and Austrian A14. Right now all east-west route connecting both motorways are going through city limits, while both motorways are only 2 km apart in some areas.


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## Verso

Does the German A861 really extend into Switzerland with the same number, or that short motorway is numbered A3?

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_...l.C3.A4ndische_Autobahnen_auf_Schweizer_Boden


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## ChrisZwolle

It doesn't have a number:


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## Verso

Looks like the only interchange on this short motorway (Rheinfelden-West) is numbered #14a, which would include it in the A3 (junction Rheinfelden is #14).


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## CNGL

In Google Earth, the A861 bridge over Rhein river vanishes as it enters Germany! :nuts:









(Germany to the North, Switzerland to the South)


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## phiberoptik

The Swiss side was taken at that date written on image. Imagery from German side dates back to 2001 so that is the reason of disappearing bridge


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## Zagor666

The german A861,the Schwarzwald or Bodensee or how ever motorway is a joke anywhere - it will never be so finished that the motorway realy looks like a motorway,they build a piece here and a piece there and then stop at all :bash:


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## Verso

^^ The A861 is completed, you're talking about the A98.


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## Zagor666

Verso said:


> ^^ The A861 is completed, you're talking about the A98.


You are off course right,i mean that piece of motorway that in the year 3000 will not be complete


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## Coccodrillo

A few variants for Morges' bypass have been selected.

The variants are:
* red, with or without the demolition of the existing motorway throught the town
* both red and blue with a new junction, and demolition of the existing motorway
* like the red part until the Y junction, then only the blue branch, and demolition of the existing motorway
* maintaining the status quo with the existing shoulder running

The best variant will be chosen in the beginning of 2012, but realisation will take years (2020? or later...).









Source: 24heures.ch


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## Verso

What's wrong with the existing motorway?


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## Coccodrillo

It's 2x2 even if with shoulder running (the new would be at least 2x3) and it pass through the town.


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## ChrisZwolle

It needs to be 2x3 indeed. However, motorways going through towns is nothing exceptional.


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## Coccodrillo

There is not much space on the sides of the motorway, so it has been decided to built a new road instead of widening the existing one which may (as I said, the existing motorway could be retaiend for local traffic) also free space in the city centre. But this will take years in any case. 2020 may even be optimsitic.


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## Suburbanist

I sort-of like the realistic approach to road work schedule policy of the Swiss in relate to road projects (not the policy itself): they have all those 2012-2025 expected road openings and it seems they usually deliver their projects on time, instead of the usual approach of an unrealistic close ECD followed by countless delays due to weather, contract signing, "geology surprises" and alike.

Now if they only tripled the number of projects in the pipeline and added 2 new road base tunnels...


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## Coccodrillo

There have already been relatively many new (semi)motorways under construction in recent years, it's much.

Most of these are expensive as with many tunnels. A rapid calculation gives this:

A3/A4 Zürich: 12 km (southern branches)
A4 Axen: 10 km
A5 Biel Bienne: 4 km (east bypass, +6 km for the western one)
A8: 8 km or so
A9: 22 km
A16: 40 km (that is, half of the length of the A16)
A28: 8 km

This gives around 100 km of tunnels (most with two tubes each) built in the last 10 years (or to be built in the next 10), which will finally complete the motorway network even in the mountainous regions. Except for some widenings (Zürich?), now it's time for railways.


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> This gives around 100 km of tunnels (most with two tubes each) built in the last 10 years (or to be built in the next 10), which will finally complete the motorway network even in the mountainous regions. Except for some widenings (Zürich?), now it's time for railways.


A network is never "complete" as long as traffic is not stationary AND leveled off. You always have improvements to be made.

However, I personally will never consider the Swiss highway network "complete" until they:

- build a 2nd Gotthard road tunnel, for obvious reasons
- build a road tunnel Valais-Bern, opening a third alpine crossing Italy-Germany via Sempione + new road tunnel - Bern
- fix the southern approach of A13 on San Bernardino tunnel, eliminating the hairpins for a modern tunnel+viaduct descent, as that sector is rather substandard

Then I have my pipedreams, like Switzerland joining Italy to increase the use of San Bernardo tunnel, and building couple new international mountain passes between two countries for leisure traffic/ski resort development.


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## Coccodrillo

0) Road traffic is highly inefficient on city to city traffic, and some main Swiss railways are still partially single track (Luzern-Zürich), thus congested, the others being congested on two. Improving them is more urgent.

1) It's forbidden as you know. But many (I'm with them) would be happy if at least the truck limit would be reached, with or without more capacity. Anyway traffic is limited today to around 1000 vehicles per hour per direction, it should be studied if it's possible to increase this limit to 1500-2000 on days when trucks are banned (basically on Sudays) to reduce waiting times, it's the only realistic option in the next 15 years or so.

2) The Rawil road project (a 1x2 Autostrasse) has been abandoned many years ago and since then nobody in Wallis-Valais asked for a road, most Bern-Valais traffic goes by rail (15~20.000 passengers/day versus 6.000 road vehicles on the rail shuttle). On the other hand this canton is now lobbying for doubling the track of the new rail tunnel to increase the number of trains. No plans at all for a Simplon road tunnel (but train shuttle service may be increased).

3) Traffic is low (AADT 6.000) and some of it diverted from the A2, so there is no need.

The only new road (or rail+shuttles) project I would like to see are a Novena-Nufenen tunnel and one between Bellinzona and the Valchiavenna/Valtellina.


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## ChrisZwolle

Nice aerial of Échangeur Ecublens in Lausanne.


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## Coccodrillo

A nice plan of the proposed (and less nice) Geneva eastern bypass, comprising up to 10 km of tunnels: http://static.tdg.ch/LAC.pdf

Dots = tunnels, discontinuous line = trench partially covered, continuous line = open air. The tunnel under the lake would be made of immersed segments as the soil is too soft to be bored (unless going dozens of metres below the surface), an alternative could be a bridge.

Some articles in French (nothing really new):

http://www.tdg.ch/node/330494

http://www.tdg.ch/geneve/actu/geneve-reve-nouveau-traversee-lac-2011-04-11

http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/geneve/...---nouveau-projet-mais-vieille-idee--16716052


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## Suissetralia

^^ there is a thread about the bridge in the Swiss forum Genève: Pont Léman

I personally favour the option of the tunnel, but if ever this project goes forward the bridge looks more likely to be built... although my opinion's been changing a little bit over time, the bridge doesn't look that bad either...


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## Zagor666

Nice Tunnel (Olivone-Lago Luzzone) :cheers:


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## Coccodrillo

Two videos and other photos here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=510148&page=29 (post #573)


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## Zagor666

Hey great,you also found the other one that goes thru the dam - i wanted also to drive that road but totaly forgot and i am not sure if i would find it so fast,i read about it in the denzel aplenstrassenführer.There is another fascinating tunnel in Switzerland i want to drive,the Les Agites one :cheers:


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## Coccodrillo

If you like tunnels you should then try the Munt la Schera tunnel (search also on Wikipedia): http://maps.google.ch/?ie=UTF8&ll=46.637415,10.184155&spn=0.040251,0.077162&z=14

Or also the train shuttles (it's better if you can board first, as you don't have cars or a roof above you - the first wagons being without roof).

There are easily other road tunnels like the one you see around dams, but they may not be opened to public. There also many unknow and closed to public water, rail, road or service tunnels for dams.

On http://map.geo.admin.ch/ (at high zoom levels) you can see them: they are the blue dotted lines starting from the dams.


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## Zagor666

The Munt la Schera i drived last year twice,prety cold :lol:
I read that the road between the 2 tunnels,the first one thru the dam and the other one,has a climb of 30%,wow,thats something :cheers:
The road with the biggest climb i drived till now was the Raffensteiner Strasse near Bolzano with 33%


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## Verso

^^ Come to my friend's garage. It's so steep that I bump my car in the floor.  Are you sure about 30/33%? It's said that the Ljubelj Pass in Slovenia is the steepest in the Alps with over 28%.

15,000th post. :cheers:


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## Zagor666

Here a few pictures - i drive´d it 2010 - till then my biggest climb was at the St.Magdalena Saline near Hall/Tirol with 32%(2002)


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## Verso

Zagor666 said:


>


That's scary! :runaway:


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## Zagor666

The real problem is that it is a very tight road but NOT one way,every second somebody could drive the down way and kick you away :lol:
i would like to know who could drive up on a bicycle - 2.5km with such climb rates :cheers:


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## Coccodrillo

Its for 26 tonne trucks, but it is not a road. Source: http://www.alpinforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=12050

Location: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...28451,8.522043&spn=0.040406,0.077162&t=h&z=14

(the other cabin is for passengers, the ropeway is opened to the public in summer, otherwise only to workers)


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## Coccodrillo

Gotthard, Splügen and Frocola di Livigno passes have been reopened yesterday. For the Gotthard pass a reopening in April is a record, it never happened in the last 50 years.


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## Zagor666

Does that opening of the St.Gotthard pass includes the old Tremola road? :cheers:


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## Coccodrillo

I don't know. What is sure is that the old road until Motto Bartola (here) is opened year round because there is a military base. The new parallel new road is closed in winter, however, even the part to Motto Bartola.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Good to know. 2009 and 2010 were particularly harsh, many passes in Italian Alps just south of the border were also opened late.


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## Coccodrillo

Some statistics from different sources.

*Passenger traffic*

Road traffic (in number of passengers) after the road boom in the 1950s is growing slower since the 1990s.










This graphic showing passengers*km is similar, the road boom then a slower growth.










Walking was estimated at 7.8 billions pkm in 1950 and 5.4 in 2008, while bicycles accounted for 1.5 and 2.0 pkm respectively. The number of bicycles has grown from 1.8 to 4.2 millions. Traffic on all means of transport grew from 15 billions pkm in 1950 to 29 in 1960, 98 in 1990 and 117 in 2008 and is still growing. Predictions are for a faster growth in percentage on public than on private transport.

Between 2000 and 2008, rail passenger traffic grew from 12.6 to 18.6 billions pkm (+47%), road public transport from 4.6 to 5.4 (+17%), non motorized traffic from 6.5 to 7.5 (+15%), and road traffic from 83.2 to 90.0 (+8%). The rail growth is due to the Rail 2000 project which focused on upgrading existing infrastructure rather than building new railways (new built lines in these 8 years don't exceed 100 km, spread over the whole nation, the longest new single line being only 45 km long, the Lötschberg base tunnel is not counted in these 100 km).

*Freight traffic*

Freight traffic in tonnes shows a strange peak for road in 1990, beside that the number of tonnes did not grew between 1980 and 2004.










This graphic (tonnes*km) shows a general growth and a higher proportion for railways than the preceding graphic, meaning that the distance goods travelled is increasing unlike their weight (an increase in volume rather than in weight is also likely). Rail traffic in 2008 accounted for 27% of non transit traffic (internal, import, export) or 44% of all traffic.










*Transalpine freight traffic*

Railway in 2008 carried 64% of all transalpine goods or 73% of north-south transit. 75% of transalpine freight in Switzerland was in transit. In millions of tonnes, traffic on the four main passes in 2008 was:
_Great St Bernard_: 0.7 on road (57.000 trucks)
_Simplon_: 0.9 on road, 10 on rail (82.000 trucks)
_Gotthard_: 11 on road, 15.5 on rail (973.000 trucks)
_San Bernardino_: 1.8 on road (163.000 trucks)
After the introduction of the road tax (LSVA/RPLP/TTPCP) and the weight limit increase from 28 to 40 tonnes the number of trucks fell from 1.404.000 in 2000 to 1.275.000 in 2008, while the number of tonnes transported increased from 8.9 to 14.4 millions. This was possible partly because of the higher load per truck and partly because empty trucks pay the same as loaded vehicles. Transporters are thus encouraged to avoid as much as possible empty truck trips.
Freight traffic on other passes crossing the main watershed is negligible even if it does exist (Maloja, Lucomagno, and even on the Bernina railway).

Millions of tonnes, orange = rail, blue = road.


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## Coccodrillo

Some other statistics, from http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/fr/index/news/publikationen.html?publicationID=3550

Firstly, the main flows of traffic of private cars in 2007 (übrige Relationen = other traffics).










Average daily traffic on railways.










Variation of rail passengers by day (workday, saturday, sunday, sat and sun, average of all days).










Type of flows for railways.










Comparison of types of traffic and reasons for travelling.

Strasse = road, Schiene = rail

Verkehrsart = type of traffic
Ziel-/Quellverkehr = traffic from/to switzerland, mainly from/to Italy (I'm not sure which German term refers to traffic exiting Switzerland and which to traffic entering)
Transitverkehr = transit traffic
Binnenverkehr = internal traffic

Fahrtzweck = reasons (commuters, business, shopping and leisure)

Only private cars and long distance trains of the four main passes are considered, no buses and transalpine regional trains.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I assume Ticino is a major tourist destination for the Swiss themselves. A nice weekend away in subtropical Ticino. I can think of worse destinations


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## Coccodrillo

Yes:










AADT 2008, red=pass, blue=tunnel, yellow=total, all kind of vehicles.

A graphic for trains would be similar, on peak days on holidays there are three or four trains per hour in the peak direction, with 7 to 14 coaches each, usually on Sundays 14 pm to 18 pm. Peak is more spread over time on Fridays evening and Saturdays morning.

But with snow it's better:


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## Coccodrillo

The best vehicle on a Swiss road (Chur, GR):





































Four lanes without median on the A13 (this is from a video, I have other photos but as ChrisZwolle had already published many picture of this motorway I don't think it is worth to publish them):


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## Zagor666

This is the best vehicle on a swiss road :cheers:
The Furka Dampflok 


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Coccodrillo

The new train for the Simplon shuttle is being tested with military trucks: http://www.seegerweb.ch/index.php?o...gory&catid=391&startpage=1&Itemid=26#category

======================

Boring of the third of four tunnels for the Biel-Bienne bypass is nearly finished. The last tunnel will be bored before summer 2012, and the bypass opened by 2016.


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## Coccodrillo

(from post 696, page 35)

I'm trying to write an index of this thread...I haven't listed posts from page17 to 35 yet.

Motorway projects http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=59628041&postcount=841
Types of national roads http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=65380795&postcount=953
Transport related referendums http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=65548303&postcount=967
Roads transfered to the Confederation http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=66394543&postcount=1023
Driving through mountains http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=510148&page=57
Rail & road traffic predictions http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=71038471&postcount=1182
Traffic statistics http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=77289839#post77289839 (plus the following pages)
Luzzone dam tunnel system http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=38563442#post38563442 and http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=75997041#post75997041
A railway (Arosabahn) on city streets in Chur http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=77402427&postcount=1295

Rapperswil - St. Gallen http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=18329714&postcount=38 (pmaciej7)
Around Basel http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=18365193&postcount=48 (pmaceiej7)
Zürich bypass http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=18527821&postcount=56
Zürich bypass http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=35762740&postcount=337
Simplon Pass http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=19532935&postcount=57 (ChrisZwolle)
Simplon Shuttle http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=19537611&postcount=61
Bernina Pass http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=19619610&postcount=65
28% slope http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=22996834&postcount=137
Video around Grindelwald http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=30937804&postcount=295
Zürich projects http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=68690849&postcount=1078 (and following pages)
Lucomagno-Lukmanier Pass http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=510148&page=55
From Göschenen to the Furka shuttle http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=69498247#post69498247
Lucomagno-Oberalp passes photos http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=71232751#post71232751 (plus the following pages)
Visp-Täsch-Zermatt http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=74951433#post74951433

A1 Zürich-Lausanne http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=25276734&postcount=219 (nils16)
A1 shoulder running http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=63107627&postcount=892
A2 drawing and photos http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=26850158&postcount=227
A2 Faido-Airolo http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=42230000&postcount=698
A2 Lugano-Chiasso http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=43622310#post43622310
A2 Gotthard-Chiasso http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=52979659&postcount=780 and http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=510148&page=41
A2 Luzern bypass http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=60133711#post60133711
A2 photos http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=68097511&postcount=1052
A3 in Winter http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=30009658&postcount=281 (nils16)
A3 Sargans-Zürich http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=34062360&postcount=330
A4 Axenstrasse http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=49190959&postcount=770
A4 Shaffhausen Miniautobahn http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=65799959#post65799959
A5 photos http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=64185071#post64185071
A5-A20 Neuchâtel http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=66173839#post66173839
A6 Rawil motorway (never built) http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=510148&page=42
A9 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=33392386&postcount=302
A9 Villeneuve-Vevey http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=65903925#post65903925 (plus the following pages)
A12 photos http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=63196763&postcount=906
A13 Roveredo&street running http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=42686236&postcount=703
A13 photos http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=73925671#post73925671
A53 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=33921010&postcount=321 (nils16)

Zürich south bypass http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=45994267#post45994267

Gotthard tunnel http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=510148&page=36
Munt la Schera tunnel http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=22574164&postcount=124

Italian SS33 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=29521474&postcount=278 (southern access to the Simplon)

Some pictures
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=23093902&postcount=150 (nils16)
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=24647520&postcount=197 (nils16)
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=25088822&postcount=216 (nils16)
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=33569216&postcount=318 (nils16)

Some videos
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=23133674&postcount=165 (nils16)
A2 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=26639340&postcount=224 (nils16)

Projects around Zürich http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=28610622&postcount=250

Geotag http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=30018356&postcount=287


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## Suissetralia

^^ wow, great job Coccodrillo! :cheers:


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## Coccodrillo

Freight traffic statistics: http://www.are.admin.ch/themen/verkehr/00258/00514/index.html?lang=en


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## Koesj

Those graphs on traffic growths are pretty misleading, with nonuniform increcements on the horizontal axis. They should either have stretched them out or provide another set for the last 10 years.


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## Road_UK

^^
It can make driving in Austria a real ugly experience. The most beautiful mountain sceneries being obstructed by the most hideous concrete noise barrier! At least in Switzerland they decorate walls and tunnels with drawings... (apart from that thing in that picture above)


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## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder if it really helps that much to put a noise barrier in the median. So far I've only seen it in Austria


Also on Slovenian H3.


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## Coccodrillo

Tunnels and extremely high noise walls are a common feature today.

Especially in mountainous areas where tunnels are now used even when they would not be mandatory (like the Italian A5, Aosta-Monte Bianco part, 25 out of 35 km in tunnel).



ChrisZwolle said:


> Most of the cost overruns _[of some Dutch railways]_ were indeed tunnels which were originally not planned, or alignments that were more "fitted" in the landscape than conceived. Both the high-speed rail and the Betuwe route have many significant tunnels. The same is currently happening with road projects. While tunnels are by no means legally necessary in the Netherlands, many view it as a way to "buy off" criticism from local / regional politicians and action groups.


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## Coccodrillo

A28 just after Landquart.










Klosters viaduct and Gotschna tunnel just after.



















Küblis bypass, with a ~2.5 km tunnel (another tunnel of a similar length is under construction nearby to bypass Saas, a third one - the 4.5 km Gotschna - bypass Klosters).


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## Coccodrillo

Albula road and railway (the road is opened only during summer, during winter it is used for sleds, with their users carried by train). This road is a rather unknown alternative to the N3 towards St. Moritz.










N27 looking east.










Vereina shuttle, Sagliains terminal (on the south near N27, the other terminal is near Klosters and A28).


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## Suburbanist

In case some forumer know, I want to bother you with a request for information: next Sunday I'm entering Switzerland via Passo del Bernina, which is a secondary route. How easy is it to buy a vignette autostradale around there?

Though I know the route there doesn't require one, they are required on A13 which I'll be taking the same day. I lived in Milano and always had a vignette or at least always bought one in Chiasso border station... so I don't know much about its availability elsewhere.


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## ChrisZwolle

I suppose you can buy it at a gas station in Sankt Moritz.


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## Coccodrillo

Ropeway for the Linthal hydropower project.










A3W just before the end in Zürich.


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## Coccodrillo

A9 near Lausanne in a strange 3+1+2 arrangement (it's here).










A9 and Vevey seen from Les Pléiades.










The N1, built new in the 1950s for the Expo 64 in Lausanne. It links Lausanne with Bern avoiding villages and with some grade separated junctions. It has often 2+1 lanes, sometimes even 4, but on a single carriageway.


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## Coccodrillo

4 possible variants for the A6 in Bern: http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/01361/03278/04414/index.html?lang=it


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## Coccodrillo

There is a fund (mainly) for road infrastructures, with 20.8 billions available (some other transport infrastructures, rail, road, etc, have different funds). This fund has for now a planned life of 20 years since 1st January 2008. These 20.8 billions are divided as follows:
* 8.5 for completion of the national road network (motorways-autostrasse-main roads), that is the plan approved in the 1960s (+ the A16, - the A6 Rawil), 1790 km out of 1893 km or 95% have already been built
* 5.5 for road capacity improvements (groups 1 and 2, see below)
* 6.0 for urban public transport
* 0.8 for main roads in mountain and peripherical regions

List of capacity improvement projects can be found here: http://www.news.admin.ch/NSBSubscriber/message/attachments/17369.pdf (groups 1 and 2 = financed, 3 = planned but without funds, 4 = postponed until all previous projects are completed, planification and project studies abandoned)

More details: http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentation/00109/00113/00491/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=30041 (see also on the attachments on the right, they contain a description of the fund and of the projects - available in the three main languages, but not in English)

Maps of the critical point and the status of plans below. Please note that the "level" indicates the congestion (3 is the higher), while the "module" the financing status (1 is the most advanced). The two things are not linked: a section might be highly congested but have low priority. The alternative of public transport is always considered when planning roads and sometimes preferred.


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## Fargo Wolf

Coccodrillo said:


> The horrible noise walls along the A2 cutting Bissone in two are taking shape. If at least a roof had been built, the village would have gained some welcome flat space. But no :bash:


 A bit overkill for sound barrier I think... Coccodrillo is right though. It would have been better to just make it an artificial tunnel. Gotta admit though, the barrier is stereotypically Swiss clean. :lol:


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## Coccodrillo

^^ Because it's new. Sometimes noise barriers and walls aren't cleaned, as I suppose that with their special material cleaning is quite expensive (if ever possible).


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## keber

Middle noise barriers do help a lot, because barriers are usually most effective being closest to noise source. They are however obscuring views and could be even safety problem.
Today noise barriers are mostly from absorbing materials (as above case) and can also be cleaned, because material inside is not much sensitive to weather influences.


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## Suburbanist

I prefer transparent noise barriers, but they can cost as much as 150% more

As for making it an artificial tunnel: it increases costs sharply, because a sector with barriers is still a overground sector, no forced ventilation, only emergency exits are needed. Put a tunnel and the costs go through the roof (pun intended).


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## Corvinus

Brünig pass (OW/BE), southbound (heading towards Interlaken)

1.










2. Haslital -where ski resorts are- is accessible from here










3.











This road also comprises a very sharp-bended tunnel limited to 40 km/h


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## ChrisZwolle

A lot of passes are already snow-covered or even closed. This also includes roads in the higher valleys like the Engadin (St. Moritz).

Lukmanierpass:









Oberalp: (1.600 m)


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## Road_UK

It looks pretty light. A few days of sunshine and it will be all gone again. We had snowfall like that a few weeks ago, gone within one day. Although the forecast in Mayrhofen doesn't look the coming week.


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## Corvinus

Winter 2010, driving from Zug (ZG) to Sattel (SZ) ski resort, distance ca. 30 km.
This is not a classical tourist route, and also the little ski resort at Sattel is rather frequented by locals.

1.









2.









3. Village of Unterägeri









4. The Aegeri Lake to the right - a small lake entirely within the Canton of Zug









5. Almost there ...


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## Coccodrillo

Unlike what it was said until now (also on newspapers), the idea of a second Gotthard tunnel isn't completely ruled out. A decision about what to do with the refurbishment of the existing tunnel will be taken next year, and the second tunnel option will be evaluated with the others. However, in the final situation (after the refurbishment of the first), the second tunnel would have only one standard lane, so to have still one lane per direction.


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Unlike what it was said until now (also on newspapers), the idea of a second Gotthard tunnel isn't completely ruled out. A decision about what to do with the refurbishment of the existing tunnel will be taken next year, and the second tunnel option will be evaluated with the others. However, in the final situation (after the refurbishment of the first), the second tunnel would have only one standard lane, so to have still one lane per direction.


A similar project is being considered for the Fréjus tunnel. Obviously, even if stupidly restrained to 1-lane per directions it is much safer to have 2 bores than one, as it avoids frontal collisions, allow easier escape and emergency rescue in case of fires and allow maintenance to be carried without sending traffic over the Passo San Gottardo. It allows far more operational flexibility. Fortunately, the San Gottardo massif is relatively easy to be dug considering the auxiliary tunnels and accesses already built there from the current bore. I think they could finish all the job, groundbreaking to opening for traffic, in less than 4 years.


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## Coccodrillo

The second Gotthard tunnel would be built with two standard lanes without hard shoulder, so as to replace the existing one during refurbishment, but later one lane would be closed.

A 17 km tunnel cannot be built in 4 years: it could never be opened before 2022, considering 5 years of discussions and 7 of construction.


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## ChrisZwolle

I don't think the Swiss tunnel construction speed is the fastest possible, if they would create additional funding motorway construction speed in Switzerland can be sped up significantly. The Chinese 18 kilometers, twin-tube Zhongnanshan Tunnel was constructed in 5 years.


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## Norge78

The Gotthard tunnel is pure perfection.


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## Fargo Wolf

Coccodrillo said:


> The second Gotthard tunnel would be built with two standard lanes without hard shoulder, so as to replace the existing one during refurbishment, but later one lane would be closed.


^^ This. There are already two tubes there. One contains the highway/motorway, while the second serves as the service tunnel. It wouldn't take much to convert the service tunnel to highway/motorway standards. There are several advantages to doing so. Closing one tube, in order to carry out works in the other, is but one example. The same applies to a major incident. On holiday weekends, as well as other heavy traffic periods, one tube could be one way, while the other has a contra flow in place. I think it would actually COMPLIMENT the proposed shuttle service for commercial vehicles.


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## Coccodrillo

Enlarging the existing tunnel has been considered impossible, because it is full of cables and pipes that would need to be moved to the existing tube during works (and moved back during the refurbishment). In addition they want to keep an emergency access to the existing tube still possible and always free. A new TBM wouldn't cost much more than enlarging the pilot-service tunnel as initially planned.


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## Coccodrillo

Public inauguration for the A16: http://www.tsr.ch/video/info/journa...-bure-etaient-ouvert-au-public-ce-samedi.html


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## Coccodrillo

Some ideas are being discussed for the Lugano-Bissone-Mendrisio A2 section (the one with the ugly noise barriers I have posted some time ago). It now has 65.000 vehicles per day on two lanes per direction.

The fourth link is a PDF with a drawing. Options are a widening of the existing infrastructure (the usual tunnel-bridge-tunnel complex, this would require the construction of new tunnels and bridges and the demolition of Bissone village), a new separate carriageway combining bridges and tunnels, a single tunnel under the lake (something around 6 or 7 km) or the status quo. In the drawing, green means status quo, orange widening, dots bridges and the dashed lines tunnels. Financing will be discussed in 2014, and maybe approved later.

http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/03002/03972/index.html?lang=it

http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/01361/03278/04484/index.html?lang=it

http://www.cdt.ch/files/docs/cb9f5351e0ab7302bbfb436e0b7b9899.pdf

http://www.cdt.ch/files/docs/ede7b697ed1f00989a5908b4a297296c.pdf


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## ChrisZwolle

I prefer alternative 1, widening of the existing infrastructure. This requires the demolition of 5 or 6 buildings in Bissone (not the entire village) and has less impact than building a new bridge across Lago di Lugano. A whole new tunnel underneath Lago di Lugano appears to be very expensive to me. I don't know the depth of the lake, but I suppose it's significant.










Once this project is completed, a 15 kilometer 2x2 bottleneck remains between Mendrisio and Como-Sud. That would require a lot of additional tunnels and viaducts, I think a whole new alignment that bypasses Chiasso and Como would be better. Something like this:


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## Coccodrillo

> I don't know the depth of the lake, but I suppose it's significant.


270 m for the deepest point, around 100-200 m on average. But near the existing bridge-dam the lake is shallow, around 10-30 m.

By the way, Bissone is already angry because of the noise barriers, proposing a widening on the surface would certainly not attract their support!

And any widening would clog up all roads around the motorway, I don't think that spending billions here would be worthwile (if the terrain was flat, maybe...).


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## ChrisZwolle

This is an offset of 10 meters in Bissone, 7 meters for roadway space and 3 meters for a noise barrier, or even an entire cover across the motorway and railway. The main problem is not the demolishing of houses, but the street next to the motorway that leads to the exit Bissone. It could be possible to raise this street by 2 meters to let it run on top of the motorway, so it can stay in place.


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## Samply

ChrisZwolle said:


> I prefer alternative 1, widening of the existing infrastructure. This requires the demolition of 5 or 6 buildings in Bissone (not the entire village) and has less impact than building a new bridge across Lago di Lugano. A whole new tunnel underneath Lago di Lugano appears to be very expensive to me. I don't know the depth of the lake, but I suppose it's significant.
> 
> Once this project is completed, a 15 kilometer 2x2 bottleneck remains between Mendrisio and Como-Sud. That would require a lot of additional tunnels and viaducts, I think a whole new alignment that bypasses Chiasso and Como would be better. Something like this:


Whilst I believe your former suggestions regarding Bissone might be slightly unpopular with the locals, the latter would be really good, I don't expect it to happen but it does make a lot of sense


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## ChrisZwolle

I've got another idea of the Gotthard Tunnel.

The main objects seems to be truck traffic through the Alps, which is now restricted by the tunnel ramp meters. 

However, won't it be possible to build a second tube and still restrict truck traffic? This could work, because a passing ban in the tunnel won't increase truck throughput capacity. They can also keep the current ramp meters at the security check / buffer areas way before the tunnel. That way they can still control and limit the amount of trucks going through it, but you'll get rid of the incredible traffic congestion during almost every weekend. Not to mention the increased traffic safety. 

Although I don't agree with the principle of forcing truck traffic off the roads onto trains, it's better to have a second tube while keeping the current status-quo for truck traffic.


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## Coccodrillo

The official target is the famous 650.000 trucks per year starting from 2019. Traffic rights would be sold with a system similar to airline tickets (the higher the demand, the higher the prices, and viceversa).

If this target is reached a second tunnel may be proposed, but a referendum would be mandatory (as the ban is partially written in the costitution, that cannot be modified without referendum).

As some traffic is diverted to the Brenner and Mont Blanc, a second tunnel without truck limit would shift some 500.000 trucks to the Gotthard, which nobody want.


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## Suburbanist

^^ The problem is that the proposed system is not fair at all. For instance, companies in Ticino will be given "preferential" access to a number of permits if the price rises too much.

The ultimate solution is to stop bitching about noise and a bit of pollution (everyone must cope with that in a modern society), suck it up and build more Alpine tunnels, including one from Bern to Visp. 

However, once the Swiss decided to hold Europe hostage with the "go send pollutants elsewhere" attitude, ramp meters for trucks would do the job.

You don't even need permits, you can just put electronic toll prices and adjust them such that the price, itself, regulates truck traffic.


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## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've got another idea of the Gotthard Tunnel.
> 
> The main objects seems to be truck traffic through the Alps, which is now restricted by the tunnel ramp meters.
> 
> However, won't it be possible to build a second tube and still restrict truck traffic? This could work, because a passing ban in the tunnel won't increase truck throughput capacity. They can also keep the current ramp meters at the security check / buffer areas way before the tunnel. That way they can still control and limit the amount of trucks going through it, but you'll get rid of the incredible traffic congestion during almost every weekend. Not to mention the increased traffic safety.
> 
> Although I don't agree with the principle of forcing truck traffic off the roads onto trains, it's better to have a second tube while keeping the current status-quo for truck traffic.


I think this train traffic works really well. It does in Austria anyway. Don't forget that the busiest northern Europe- Italy link is via Brenner. Freight traffic on the A12 Inntal Autobahn is beyond all porportions. But it's reduced a lot by these HGV-trains running from Woergl to Trento. Trains run generally every 5 minutes, and reduces transit traffic through the Alps significantly. Benefits: better for the enviroment, less congestion and commuters to Innsbruck won't have a hard time getting to work.


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## Suburbanist

^^ The new Gotthard tunnel will not carry RO-RO trains.


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## bozata90

^^ why?


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## Jeroen669

Coccodrillo said:


> As some traffic is diverted to the Brenner and Mont Blanc, a second tunnel without truck limit would shift some 500.000 trucks to the Gotthard, which nobody want.


Explain me the problem of this, since even a few thousand extra trucks a day (at most) still won't make the Gotthard route a huge truck corridor. You're partly just moving away your problems to other countries, Austria and France will be thankfull to you I suppose...

Btw, the current truck control centres are also causing (next to a lot of time loss) a lot of extra pollution:
Erstfeld (dir. south) -> some extra kms of driving, lots of stop-and-go, lots of stationary trucks (you're not going to turn off your engine for 2-3 minutes when you're fully loaded), not to mention all the extra pollution from building this HUGE concrete area
Biasca (dir. south) -> lots of stop-and-go, huge waiting area, etc.
Biasca (dir. north) -> lots of stop-and go, but this one is especially a pain in the ass since most trucks can't get to cruise speed anymore before beginning the climb here.

Maybe some nice things to reconsider...


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## Coccodrillo

The fact the Dutch A15 carries 20.000 trucks or so a day is not a reason to worsen situation elsewhere. And a lot of transalpine freight traffic is long distance, like The Netherlands-Italy, so some thousands of vehicles multiplied for a few thousands kilometres is not so negligible.

That's why there will be no RO-RO trains (or not too much of them) on the Gotthard line, as carrying containers or semitrailers alone from Amsterdam to Bologna is better than shuttling trucks from Erstfeld to Biasca or from Basel to Chiasso (less freight by roa, less weight (tractors) on trains). Throught Switzerland there are a few RO-RO trains, but this offer will not be extended: 10 trains per direction on Freiburg-Lötschberg-Simplon-Novara, one train on Basel-Gotthard-Lugano, carrying respectively around 100.000 and 10.000 trucks a year.

Finally I don't see why Switzerland should spend money for European Union's road vehicles while Germany and Italy don't do the same for Swiss trains. I would expect reciprocity, at least.

@Suburbanist: trucks to/from Ticino don't have to wait and can traverse the Gotthard tunnel when they want (they use the same waiting line as passenger vehicles), but it's a small part of the total. Trucks travlling from Switzerland (except Ticino and part of Graubünden) to Italy have to wait at the Gotthard and San Bernardino tunnels like everyone other.

@Jeroen669: in my opinion the best solution may be a 2+2 tunnel, without an absolute truck limit but with tolls varying according to the day (very high on summer weekends, lower during winter weeks) and to the type of goods carried (low tolls for a truck carrying flowers from Amsterdam to Milano, but very high for washing machines manufactured in Italy and sold in Sweden). But in absence of such toll policy I still prefer the status quo (the queues don't bother me, as I nearly always travel by train to go north of the Gotthard).


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## ChrisZwolle

Container freight by truck is only a minimal percentage of all truck freight. Most container freight is already done by train or ship except within a few hundred kilometers near major ports where it is quicker and more efficient to do the last leg by truck for some goods. Most truck traffic through the Gotthard is bound to have an origin or destination within the Milano metropolitan area or near Genova. If you want to go further into Italy, the Brenner is a better option. 

An issue is that the amount of truck traffic is suggested to be much higher than it actually is, by using terms as "truck avalanches", "mega trucks" or "1 million trucks". Fact is that trans-Alpine truck traffic is pretty minimal. There are almost no international routes with such low truck volumes as the Gotthard. And the Brenner and Tauern Routes do not have that much truck traffic either, albeit more than the Gotthard route. 1 million trucks per year may sound a lot but it is only 2.700 trucks per day which is really low. Even taking the busiest truck routes in Europe out of the equation, 2.700 is still on the low end. Just about any motorway in central Europe carries more trucks than that. Even in the unlikely event that all trans-Alpine rail freight would shift to trucks, the absolute number is still rather low.


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## Coccodrillo

Still some goods could be moved by train.

And there are the same protests also on the Fréjus, Mont Blanc and Brenner routes, albeit without any result.

Finally, reaching the 650.000 limit would also help to make more acceptable the second Gotthard tunnel (but this point will be discussed next year).


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## Jeroen669

Coccodrillo said:


> The fact the Dutch A15 carries 20.000 trucks or so a day is not a reason to worsen situation elsewhere. And a lot of transalpine freight traffic is long distance, like The Netherlands-Italy, so some thousands of vehicles multiplied for a few thousands kilometres is not so negligible.


We're just talking about Swiss, right? Germany and Italy don't have that insane tolls and driving restrictions as Switserland has.



> That's why there will be no RO-RO trains (or not too much of them) on the Gotthard line, as carrying containers or semitrailers alone from Amsterdam to Bologna is better than shuttling trucks from Erstfeld to Biasca or from Basel to Chiasso (less freight by roa, less weight (tractors) on trains). Throught Switzerland there are a few RO-RO trains, but this offer will not be extended: 10 trains per direction on Freiburg-Lötschberg-Simplon-Novara, one train on Basel-Gotthard-Lugano, carrying respectively around 100.000 and 10.000 trucks a year.


I've heard the company I'm driving for used to use that train service between Freiburg and Novara. They don't do it anymore cause it takes too much time and drivers could barely sleep in the train cabins.



> @Jeroen669: in my opinion the best solution may be a 2+2 tunnel, without an absolute truck limit but with tolls varying according to the day (very high on summer weekends, lower during winter weeks) and to the type of goods carried (low tolls for a truck carrying flowers from Amsterdam to Milano, but very high for washing machines manufactured in Italy and sold in Sweden). But in absence of such toll policy I still prefer the status quo (the queues don't bother me, as I nearly always travel by train to go north of the Gotthard).


Keeping trucking in Switserland exclusively for high-value goods is your good right. Imo it's just insane, such policy doesn't belong in a rich country with a free market. The queues don't bother you: well I don't bother train delays, but what does that say? I think it's time for Switserland to see railways and roads as equal...


----------



## Coccodrillo

Jeroen669 said:


> We're just talking about Swiss, right? Germany and Italy don't have that insane tolls and driving restrictions as Switserland has.


Yes, but the attitude of the local population is basically the same. And the toll for Basel-Chiasso (300 km) is more or less the toll for the same distance on the two main French-Italy tunnels.


----------



## Suburbanist

The idea of charging tolls according to the time-sensitivity of the cargo is totally insane. A truck is a truck and occupies 0,0x% of the daily capacity on a tunnel. There is a thing called market to sort out which cargo goes by each mode of transportation.

What the Swiss want to do is to force DB and, especially, Trenitalia, to operate more "express freight" trains. In order to operate container trains with a fast turnaround, essential in today's paradigm of lean manufacturing and just-in-time supply chains, you need massive transshipment facilities with longitudinal cranes that can take a container and put it in a truck trailer in a matter of 110s or less. It's pretty cool stuff, but insanely expensive if you don't have scale on your operation.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Jeroen669 said:


> Btw, the current truck control centres are also causing (next to a lot of time loss) a lot of extra pollution:
> Erstfeld (dir. south) -> some extra kms of driving, lots of stop-and-go, lots of stationary trucks (you're not going to turn off your engine for 2-3 minutes when you're fully loaded), not to mention all the extra pollution from building this HUGE concrete area
> Biasca (dir. south) -> lots of stop-and-go, huge waiting area, etc.sor
> Biasca (dir. north) -> lots of stop-and go, but this one is especially a pain in the ass since most trucks can't get to cruise speed anymore before beginning the climb here.


Before the southern portal there are two traffic lights: one before the Gotthard tunnel, one before the previous tunnel ("Stalvedro"). Vehicles are kept at halt at the Stalvedro lights until there is some free space between that lights and the Gotthard traffic lights. The second queue seems more stationary than the first, maybe reducing the vehicles with the motor turned on but idling.


----------



## Jeroen669

^^ I wasn't even talking about the Gotthard itself, but about the obligatory truck parkings many kilometers before and after the Gotthard. 

I get the idea of the extra traffic lights avoiding stationary traffic in the smaller tunnels before entering the Gotthard. Maybe if they'd install counters (minutes to green light) more people would turn their engine off. However: by truck I refuse to turn off my engine when traffic is stationary for less than 5 minutes. It takes ages to get enough air pressure otherwise...


----------



## Corvinus

Summer 2011 trip to the south:

1. With 14 km of traffic jam announced in front of Gotthard motorway tunnel, the decision is easy to travel the pass instead.










2. Climbing ...










3. Interesting shape of arrows on the sign










4. Trailing the pack 










5. At the summit of Gotthard Pass - next to the road










6. Descending, Ticino side: nice parking in a hairpin curve
+ notice the change in the weather










7. Heading down ... the traffic jam announced for the tunnel at this time was already 18 km for the southbound and 5 km for the northbound direction.










8. Verzasca Dam (TI) - road on top of it, visitors allowed only on foot










9. The dam


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Did you see James Bond?


----------



## Corvinus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Did you see James Bond?


How could I have, when *that * jump was in the Soviet Union :lol: yet the 007 emblem is of course proudly displayed at the jumping point on the dam ...

Leaving Lugano westwards for Lago Maggiore, towards Luino (I)
This road apparently has no number and becomes _Via Cantonale _










Right behind the CH/I border


----------



## earthJoker

Corvinus said:


> How could I have, when *that * jump was in the Soviet Union :lol:


Yes, of course


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Saas bypass has been opened:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umfahrung_Saas

http://www.gr.ch/DE/institutionen/v...bau/umfahrung-saas/Seiten/umfahrung-saas.aspx

http://www.suedostschweiz.ch/wirtschaft/saas-wird-zwei-tage-lang-gefeiert


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## ChrisZwolle

That is good news for the inhabitants of Saas, winter sport fanatics to Davos or general traffic to the Unter Engadin


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## keber

9 years for construction?
And I thought our companies are slow.


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## ChrisZwolle

There is very little money for road construction in Switzerland nowadays, that's why most works are dragged out longer to spend less per year.


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## Coccodrillo

It's the same for railways (but the timing is nearly always respected) if not for everything.

On the A28 (which will not be a real Autostrasse) there is another bypass under construction, for Küblis. It will open in 2016.


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## SeanT

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is very little money for road construction in Switzerland nowadays, that's why most works are dragged out longer to spend less per year.


...So, even CH doesn´t have the money to build roads,...Hm! It´s bad, very bad!!!:lol:


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## ChrisZwolle

They do have money, they just don't spend it on roads.


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## keber

Total cost is thus much higher than if it would be built in normal time (around 3 years).


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## Suburbanist

keber said:


> Total cost is thus much higher than if it would be built in normal time (around 3 years).


No. At lest the Swiss are clever in the sense of starting and finishing construction of shorter sectors soon, with money already guaranteed when a project started. It is rare to read of a road project that had begun construction and then stopped because of lack of funds. Or permits. So once they begin digging and doing earthworks, it is almost certain that sector will be completed on time.


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## Vaud

Suburbanist said:


> With proper investments, and some further widening on the Italian side, a huge Y Basel/Brengez (Chur) - Italy could be devised, taking not 650.000, but easily 2.000.000/trucks year.


hno: that's horrible! could you imagine so many trucks and pollution concentrated on the alpine valleys? The country is already spending a lot of resources in building the GBT, so no option for trucks, goods need to be carried by clean trains, or else it's as easy as taking another route. The EU agreed to this, so that's it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

2 million trucks per year is nothing. You can find that on regular main roads even. 

The whole discussion about trucking is hugely exaggerated by quoting annual numbers all the time. 

2.000.000 trucks per year = 5.500 trucks per day. That's not a busy truck route at all, similar figures can be found on low-trafficked motorways all over Europe. Many German, British and Benelux autobahns have over 15.000 trucks per day.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Plain motorways with quite relevant local traffic are different from mountain motorways with mainly long distance traffic. You can't (easily) transport by train freight between Rotterdam and Utrecht, but it would be possible to transport 30 or so semitrailers together from the Netherlands to Italy by train instead of towing them one by one.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Circular argument: it would be possible to transport them at least from Basel to Chiasso, IF the Swiss had fit their operations to accommodate a large number of "rolling highway"/RO-RO trains in their plans for their network. But they same horrified by transporting whole trucks because "it means only 40% of the weight is actual cargo".


----------



## Nordic20T

Verso said:


> Btw, when was the interchange Bern-Neufeld upgraded? I've just noticed it. It looks quite complicated, and I see a tunnel to Tiefenaustrasse.


As already said, the Neufeld-tunnel opened 16.08.2009. 

Here are two pics I made (with my phone) when it was U/C. 

1. Looking south to the Tiefenaustrasse









2. Looking north









3. Video Map
In the beginning, we have just left A1 and are driving through the tunnel to the city centre of Bern. (Sorry for the bad quality, I won't upload more videos to flickr.)


----------



## Verso

^^ Thanks for that video! That's a short expressway.


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## Coccodrillo

Airolo with the Gotthard road and the Alps.


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## Verso

^^ The second pic is amazing.


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## Coccodrillo

Gotthard railway, N2 and A2 this morning, This evening there were 6 km of queue before the Gotthard tunnel northbound, and southbound vehicles were traveling very slowly. Trucks have been banned from the A13 San Bernardino.

A few images from the TV here: http://la1.rsi.ch/home/networks/la1...df80d0e&date=16.12.2011&stream=low#tabEdition


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## Coccodrillo

The Lötschen valley (Kanton Wallis) is isolated, as the Steg-Gampel-Goppenstein-Blatten road is closed because of danger of avalanches, so the Kandersteg-Lötschberg-Goppenstein car shuttle is suspended and a temporary Kandersteg-Brig service has been activated, but with trains only every 2 hours instead of every 20-30 minutes. But I don't know if this service will last long, as also some passenger trains are canceled or run with delay leaving local inhabitants also without rail service (Goppenstein station). Apparently yesterday some trains skipped Goppenstein railway station as it was non reachable by the inhabitants of the valley neither by bus, car or foot. The Brig-Furka shuttle-Andermatt road and many other Alpine roads are also closed.



> _Aktuelle Verkehrslage 17.12.2011, 16:49 Uhr_
> *Wichtige Informationen:*
> Die Strassen Goppenstein-Blatten und Goppenstein-Gampel-Steg sind infolge Lawinengefahr geschlossen. Notverlad Kandersteg - Brig in Betrieb. Heute Samstag, 17. Dezember 2011: Abfahrt in Kandersteg um: 17.15, 19.15, 21.15, 23.15 Uhr. Abfahrt ab Brig: 16.20, 18.20, 20.20, 22.20, 0.15 Uhr. Am Sonntag, 18.12.2011 verkehren die Züge: Kandersteg ab 07.15, 9.15 und weiter alle 2 Stunden bis 23.15 Uhr. Brig ab: 08.20 , 10.20 und weiter alle 2 Stunden bis 0.15 Uhr. Fahrzeit ca 40 Minunten, Preis CHF 54.- Grossraumfahrzeuge können nicht befördert werden. Info Tel 058 327 4121. Es ist mit Wartezeiten zu rechnen. Umfahrungsempfehlung: Autobahn A 12 Bern - Vevey. Die Strasse Goppenstein - Lötschental ist ebenfalls gesperrt. Weitere Infos bei Änderung der Verkehrssituation.
> *Strassenzustand:*
> Frutigen – Kandersteg	schneebedeckt
> Gampel – Goppenstein	gesperrt
> Goppenstein – Lötschental	gesperrt
> *Wartezeiten:*
> Kandersteg	Keine Wartezeiten
> Goppenstein	Keine Wartezeiten


Source: http://www.bls.ch/d/autoverlad/autoverlad.php


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## Jeroen669

Coccodrillo said:


> Gotthard railway, N2 and A2 this morning, This evening there were 6 km of queue before the Gotthard tunnel northbound, and southbound vehicles were traveling very slowly. Trucks have been banned from the A13 San Bernardino.


Eventually they've banned trucks on the A2 as well. They filled all parkings with trucks as well as hard shoulders. I've spent 16 hours on the hard shoulder (northbound) near Biasca.


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## Verso

How many Sudokus did you solve?


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## Jeroen669

I had 3 colleagues and enough beer with me, so let's say it wasn't too bad after all.


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## Coccodrillo

Rail & road report from the San Gottardo region.


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## Suburbanist

Jeroen669 said:


> I had 3 colleagues and enough *beer with me*, so let's say it wasn't too bad after all.


Drinking and driving? :shifty:


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## Jeroen669

^^ Of course only after it was clear that they wouldn't allow trucks anymore to drive through that day...


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## Coccodrillo

A study about effects on local economies and roads around the Gotthard (Ticino-Uri-Graubünden-Wallis cantons) of the tunnel closure has been presented.

The options are:
* total closure around 2020-2025 (365 days/year for 2,5 years) for 1,2 billion CHF
* partial closure around 2019-2025 (280 days/year for 3,5 years) for 1,3 billion CHF
* second single lane tunnel around 2035, with 140 days of closure around 2020-2025 for urgent renovation works for 2,7 billion CHF

The variant should be chosen next year.

Source: http://www.astra.admin.ch/themen/nationalstrassen/04656/04660/index.html?lang=de (DR-FR-IT)


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## Suburbanist

Hopefully, they will change their mind and opt for a new 2-lane tunnel, even with truck traffic restricted, which shouldn't cost more than CHF 3,1B


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## Coccodrillo

^^ They should put an high toll on foreign cars and trucks instead. Then they should sell passing rights in advance, with extremely high tolls on summer weekends (say 80-90 € per car) and lower on winter weekdays (but not lower than 40 € per trip).


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## g.spinoza

^^ Wow, it would be the most unique situation of building a link that no-one uses. You should have spared money by not building it at all, since the result is the same.


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## Suburbanist

Well, tunnel safety is very important. Tunnel fires are the worst possible road disaster, so a broken car is really a safety issue as it precludes prompt rescue and firefighting should a fire start at the same time.


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## Coccodrillo

Snow on the A13 near San Bernardino tunnel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ywFF8psMK0

Trucks are banned on both A2 and A13.


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## g.spinoza

A bicycle rider was caught by the police, last 29th December, riding inside San Gottardo tunnel. He managed to cover 6 of the 17 km of the tunnel before a truck driver spotted (and photographed) him and reported to the police.
http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/201...nnel_del_san_gottardo-27777303/1/?ref=HRESS-6


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## ElviS77

g.spinoza said:


> A bicycle rider was caught by the police, last 29th December, riding inside San Gottardo tunnel. He managed to cover 6 of the 17 km of the tunnel before a truck driver spotted (and photographed) him and reported to the police.
> http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/201...nnel_del_san_gottardo-27777303/1/?ref=HRESS-6


Who would want to cycle through a busy, seventeen km tunnel..? Pure insanity.


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## Vaud

^^ some people love to take it to the limit, I would be scared to death with all those cars and trucks, not to mention the fact that my lungs would have turned black by the time I reached the end. Fortunately he was arrested and there was not an accident.


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## Coccodrillo

Some mistakes, as quite usual with journalists hno: 



> Lo spericolato personaggio ha percorso ben 6 km di quello che - con i suoi 17 km di lunghezza - è attualmente il secondo tunnel stradale più lungo del mondo.


It's the third longest road tunnel, not the second, after the Laerdal and Zhongnanshan.



> Probabilmente l'uomo ha scelto di imboccare la calda e coperta galleria per evitare di dover pedalare sotto la neve che, in quel momento, stava cadendo abbondante sul celebre passo del San Gottardo.


He has not taken the tunnel because it was snowing on the pass road, but because this road is completely submersed by snow in winter. He and his bicycle could have taken a train between Göschenen and Airolo (or viceversa?) instead.

By the way, also the Furka and Oberalp pass railways are now completely blocked - even if the first traverse the pass with a 15.4 km tunnel; blocking also the two car shuttles; Göschenen-Andermatt road is also closed and Andermatt and Hospental villages are accessible only by train (because the railway is nearly 100% covered by snow shelters).


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## Suburbanist

^^ I have very nice memories of Andermatt - but on a sunny, stunning August morning after I had driven through the Fürkapass


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## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> Some mistakes, as quite usual with journalists hno:


It's surprising how often you read mistakes like this. They often base those stats of the biggest/widest/highest/longest/largest on Europe + North America and usually at least 5 years outdated.


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## italystf

Coccodrillo said:


> Göschenen-Andermatt road is also closed and Andermatt and Hospental villages are accessible only by train (because the railway is nearly 100% covered by snow shelters).


This means that there are villages that don't have road access at all in wintertime?


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's surprising how often you read mistakes like this. They often base those stats of the biggest/widest/highest/longest/largest on Europe + North America and usually at least 5 years outdated.


I think those mistakes are quite harmless.


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## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> I think those mistakes are quite harmless.


Still, when presenting facts, you better get them right, especially in this day and age of megaprojects.


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## Coccodrillo

italystf said:


> This means that there are villages that don't have road access at all in wintertime?


Only these days.


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## earthJoker

italystf said:


> This means that there are villages that don't have road access at all in wintertime?


It's a special situation, I think the last time we had that much snow in the Alps was in 1999.


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## italystf

Well, I found out that Zermatt is home of 6000 people but there are no roads going there! But they seems like it because it make the town quiet and clean! I wonder if there are other towns in the developed world with no road access (except islands, off course). In Italy the only one is Chamois, in Aosta Valley, home of only 100 people and accessible by foot or cable-car only.


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## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> Well, I found out that Zermatt is home of 6000 people but there are no roads going there! But they seems like it because it make the town quiet and clean! I wonder if there are other towns in the developed world with no road access (except islands, off course). In Italy the only one is Chamois, in Aosta Valley, home of only 100 people and accessible by foot or cable-car only.


Zermatt is a mountain resort, and the costs of hauling merchandise and supplies there are extremely high anyway. There is, indeed, a road reaching Zermatt but it is unfairly closed to road traffic to boost the income of the cable car company.

Murren, Gimmelwald and other villages on the Lauterbrunnen valley are also "car-free" in the sense of not being directly accessible by roads, but they have nearby parking lots from where you take a cable car. They should convert the villages into resorts IMO.


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## ChrisZwolle

Most of those villages would be completely dead if there was no tourist infrastructure or highly protectionist policy of locally produced agricultural products.


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## earthJoker

That's not only true for those villages, but for about any village in the alps.


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## Road_UK

earthJoker said:


> That's not only true for those villages, but for about any village in the alps.


True. Mayrhofen is a village, pop. around 3500, but with facilities to accomodate 10.000 tourists. Nearly all houses are hotels, guesthouses, restaurants, shops and other facilities for winter and summer vacations.


----------



## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> True. Mayrhofen is a village, pop. around 3500, but with facilities to accomodate 10.000 tourists. Nearly all houses are hotels, guesthouses, restaurants, shops and other facilities for winter and summer vacations.


/off-topic: 

Doesn't it feel desolated to live in a place that is empty during the transitions (April-May, October-December)? I had a friend who lived in a place near Cortina d'Ampezzo and hated the feeling of a "ghost town" during the low seasons, particularly the one preceding the winter when it rains a lot and days progressively shorter.


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## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> /off-topic:
> 
> Doesn't it feel desolated to live in a place that is empty during the transitions (April-May, October-December)? I had a friend who lived in a place near Cortina d'Ampezzo and hated the feeling of a "ghost town" during the low seasons, particularly the one preceding the winter when it rains a lot and days progressively shorter.


Not at all. There are always Dutch and Germans about, but it's nice to have the village to yourself again once in a while. Most restaurants and hotels are closed, but a few remain open. The cable car's aren't running, but the spring is always really mild and at times hot here. Last April we've hit 37C, while the skiing season wasn't even finished yet. So I take the dogs into the mountains, which isn't conglegated by Germans then. Also in autumn we usually have warm sunny weather. It get's chillier at 5pm, when the sun hides behind the mountains. The Mayrhofen area is right on the Italian border, but Italy is only accesible on foot. We still get their weather, and I enjoy Mayrhofen any time of the year. Also now, now that we got so much of the white stuff, that they've started dumbing loads in the river.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Lötschberg shuttle (around 5.000 vpd or 1.8 millions per year) tickets cover the running costs, however the others are subsidized (I don't know if via rail or road funds, but shuttles are considered like roads for road planning purposes). Traffic on other shuttles is much lower: Vereina 400.000, Furka 200.000, Simplon 100.000, Oberalp much less (a dozen vehicles per train, 4 trips per day per direction = 100~120 vpd). The recently discontinued Albula shuttle had similar traffic levels of the Oberalp service, and the Gotthard loading stations are kept usable as backups. Note that most shuttle traffic is formed of private vehicles and a few buses, as the maximum height is around 3.8 m.


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> The Lötschberg shuttle (around 5.000 vpd or 1.8 millions per year) tickets cover the running costs


With such a steep fare and large traffic, they could build a car-and-van only road tunnel to replace the shuttle and finance it with tolls only.



> The recently discontinued Albula shuttle had similar traffic levels of the Oberalp service, and the Gotthard loading stations are kept usable as backups. Note that most shuttle traffic is formed of private vehicles and a few buses, as the maximum height is around 3.8 m.


Is the Julierpaß now kept open year-round? Otherwise road access to St. Moritz would be tricky, requiring the use of the Vereina shuttle than backtracking.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> With such a steep fare and large traffic, they could build a car-and-van only road tunnel to replace the shuttle and finance it with tolls only.


The projected nearby Rawil road tunnel and motorway have been abandoned and a new railway built instead - and everyone is happy of that!



Suburbanist said:


> Is the Julierpaß now kept open year-round? Otherwise road access to St. Moritz would be tricky, requiring the use of the Vereina shuttle than backtracking.


Julierpass has always been opened in winter (as much as possible).


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> The projected nearby Rawil road tunnel and motorway have been abandoned and a new railway built instead - and everyone is happy of that!


The Lötschberg Base Tunnel doesn't carry cars, so it is rather irrelevant for road transport.


----------



## Coccodrillo

It's people that need to be moved, not steel boxes on rubber wheels.


----------



## Jeroen669

Last summer I used the autoverlad Kandersteg - Goppenstein. It was quite expensive (I thought 26 CHF), the tunnel is very noisy and there's no lightning at all. Not a very pleasant break during a long journey...


----------



## Coccodrillo

There was a plan to introduce a new service with Eurotunnel-like vehicles (both for cars and trucks) through the new railway tunnel, but to save money it was built partially single track so there is no capacity for shuttles.

With the transfer of the access roads to the federal government this new service seems unlikely. I only hope they do something to bypass Gampel-Steg village linking the new A6/N6 with the A9.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Someone in the past asked for the rules about snow equipment. According to this article it is not mandatory to have winter tyres on cars because of that, but drivers that become stuck in the snow may have to pay a fine if they are not equipped. The article doesn't say anything about chains, only that this weekend more snow is predicted even in plains.

**********

80% of the Eyholz tunnel (the eastern one) of the A9 near Visp has been bored. On the other hand only 17% of the westbound tube of the Visp tunnel have been bored. The eastbound tube has been opened some years ago, but only on the Vispertal branch (to Saas Fee and Zermatt). The A9 branch is still under construction. Opening of the remaining part of the A9 is expected around 2016, but I don't know if it will open in one day or if it will be opened in stages.

Maps can be found here: http://www.a9-vs.ch/aktuell/aktuell.php (4 PDF in the second line, the one beginning with "Vortriebsstände")


----------



## Coccodrillo

Oberalp route (again). In the last photo the road is somewhere under the snow to the right of the railway. My car train was empty, with only 3 cars and 6 passengers. There are four car trains per day per direction, plus a regional train every hour.


























































PS about *Wegenwiki*: the Kerenzerberg tunnel is a single tube towards Sargans-Chur. In the other direction the motorway runs in many short tunnels, partly reusing a single track railway alignment (the railway itself got a new 4 km tunnel).


----------



## Coccodrillo

ASTRA's report of 2011 is available: http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentation/00119/04504/index.html?lang=de (German-French-Italian)

It contains some photos of the Gotthard tunnel (service tunnel, cross passages, etc).


----------



## Coccodrillo

A video about the upgrade of Melide-Grancia-San Salvatore tunnel (1,7 km) on the A2: http://la1.rsi.ch/home/networks/la1...ef67593&date=31.01.2012&stream=low#tabEdition

The roof will be demolished, the cables located there have been put in a new service tunnel bored below the traffic tubes. It is planned to build a third tube to be used in the peak direction, but certainly not before 2030. Traffic today is around 70.000 vehicles per day.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The last of four bores of the A5 wastern bypass of Biel-Bienne has been completed yesterday. This part has two tunnels, each composed of two tubes (around 1.5 + 2.8 km, x 2).

The western bypass will have a ~2.5 km bidirectional natural tunnel towards Neuchâtel (part of the A5, with a single lane per direction, no.1 in blue in the map), some other artificial tunnels or uncovered trenches, and finally a 3 km branch in tunnel (no.3, green). Opening is unlikely before 2025.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The federal government will invest 3.06 billions CHF from now until 2015 to complete the national roads, an average of 750 millions per year.

Around 95% of the planned network has been completed, and 100 km still need to be built, mainly the A4 (Schwyz and Uri), A5 Biel-Bienne, A9 and A16.

The long term construction plans are approved by the federal government every 4 years.

http://www.24heures.ch/suisse/berne-investit-3-milliards-achever-reseau/story/31584506


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## Vaud

^^ the whole list:

Opening between 2012 and 2014: 

A8 contournement de Lungern (Obwald) Ouverture en 2012 
A16 Loveresse - Tavannes (Berne) Ouverture en 2012
A5 contournement de Serrières (Neuchâtel) Ouverture en 2013
A16 Moutier Sud - Court (Berne) Ouverture en 2013
A16 Bure - Porrentruy Ouest (Jura) Ouverture en 2014

The rest of projects needed to finish the national network:

A5 BE contournement de Bienne Westast
A4 nouvelle Axenstrasse
A2 BS gare CFF - triangle de Gellert
A4 ZH Knonau, contournement de Ottenbach/Obfelden
A5 NE Serrières
A9 VS contournement de Viège, Pfynwald, Riedberg
A16 BE/JU
A28 GR contournement de Küblis


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## Suburbanist

After that they need to create a new road plan with new highways


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## Coccodrillo

Why? Most important axis have will have a motorway by 2016, and Swiss don't like roads so much, so I don't see any new big project progressing (just a few widenings).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> Swiss don't like roads so much


Don't let a few very vocal anti-road groups blur your view of the average inhabitant. (politicians already do that enough). If they dislike roads so much, then why is the Swiss car ownership rate one of the highest in Europe? If you factor out some countries with few inhabitants, the Swiss car ownership rate is the 6th highest of Europe.


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> If they dislike roads so much, then why is the Swiss car ownership rate one of the highest in Europe?


There is the exception of Basel (330 vehicles/1000 inhabitants), and ownership rate isn't all. For example nearly all motorways have less than 80.000 vpd (compared than the 200.000 in the Netherlands) and every Swiss travel by train 2400 km a year, compared 1300 for French and Danish people and less than 1000 for the rest of western European. The last road initiative (Avanti*) has been rejected by voters, while usually rail projects are approved.

*See:
http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/va/20040208/explic/gesamt.pdf (DE)
http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/pore/va/20040208/explic/gesamt.pdf (FR)
http://www.admin.ch/ch/i/pore/va/20040208/explic/gesamt.pdf (IT)


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## g.spinoza

It's easy to convince people that roads are bad. For instance, that document you posted reads:
"Più strade significa aumento del traffico e, di conseguenza,
aumento delle code."
"More roads mean more traffic and, therefore, more queues".

How can you take seriously such a document?


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, that's about the classic argument of anti-road people. Apply the same argument to hospitals please, if you build more hospitals only more people would get sick, so the solution is to not expand hospital services, so less people will be sick. Or schools. Or sewage systems, or public transport, or just about anything. You can't have a 21st century economy and society with a 20th century infrastructure network.

Comparing traffic volumes between Switzerland and the Netherlands is nonsense because the Netherlands has over 2 times the number of population on the same amount of km².


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## Corvinus

That "driver inserted DVD" was nothing more than mere speculation only! Passengers could not have observed it since drivers were not visible from their position. Also, the driver's colleague sat next to him, so it appears unlikely that the actual driver himself had to play around with gadgets while driving. 

http://www.lematin.ch/faits-divers/La-piste-du-DVD-se-degonfle/story/19384988



> La cabine des chauffeurs se trouve au niveau de la route tandis que les passagers sont tous surélevés. « Il est dès lors impossible qu'un enfant ait vu le chauffeur manipuler un DVD ou un autre objet », a indiqué la direction de Toptours.
> 
> Tom Cooremans ne comprendrait pas non plus pourquoi, alors que les chauffeurs sont deux dans la cabine, le conducteur du bus aurait mis lui-même un DVD dans le lecteur. Ce lecteur se situe à hauteur de la tête du chauffeur, directement sur la droite, dans le modèle d'autocar en question.[...]
> La police valaisanne a aussi qualifié l'hypothèse du DVD de «spéculation».


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## g.spinoza

Corvinus said:


> That "driver inserted DVD" was nothing more than mere speculation only! Passengers could not have observed it since drivers were not visible from their position.


That proves nothing. Children couldn't see the driver using the DVD player, but could see the DVD player being activated, just looking at the screen.

As for the colleague, I don't know.


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## Coccodrillo

An article on Tunneltalk: http://tunneltalk.com/Fire-safety-Mar12-Bus-crash-in-Swiss-Sierre-tunnel-leaves-28-dead.php


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## ChrisZwolle

The DVD change story seems a bit unplausible to me. It's far more likely the co-driver was changing a DVD, if it was changed at all. I mean, they're 12-year old kids who just went through severe emotional and physical trauma that could easily cloud anyone's judgment.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I think that's very plausible, instead. The driver doing stupid things and the bus company trying to cover it up to save its *ss. Not unplausible at all. And the kids were kids, but not retards. Why should they invent (all of them) that the driver was meddling with DVD controls while he was not?

I'm with the kids.


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## Satyricon84

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I think that's very plausible, instead. The driver doing stupid things and the bus company trying to cover it up to save its *ss. Not unplausible at all. And the kids were kids, but not retards. Why should they invent (all of them) that the driver was meddling with DVD controls while he was not?
> 
> I'm with the kids.


The drive cabin is at the level of the street, while passengers are upper level. Being that children that survived were set in the bottom of the bus and the crash happened in the night with dark, it's pretty difficult that they could see what the driver was doing


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## ChrisZwolle

Anyone close enough to see the bus driver working on a DVD player did not survive the accident. It's well possible that the co-driver, or even the team leaders were doing something with the DVD.


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## g.spinoza

I don't say it's true. I was not there after all. I just say it's plausible and I wouldn't be surprised if they find out that's the case.


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## devo

If anyone wants input on what children are capable of remembering during interrogation, watch the documentary "Capturing the Freedmans" 

Anyway, it was most likely the tunnel design that caused the accident to become as fatal as it turned out to be. I cannot believe that no-one objected to those walls when the tunnel was designed.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ Even before the Mont Blanc disaster nobody thought to tunnel safety, but since then a (sort of) safety tunnel has been constructed in the Mont Blanc tunnel, is under construction at the Fréjus, Arlberg, Great Saint Bernhard and many more, and the Katschberg and Tauern tunnels have been doubled (the Gotthard road tunnel has a safety tunnel since the opening).


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## Suburbanist

^^ This accident has nothing to do with the major concerns of road tunnels - fire.

I'm sure they will look into service bays more closely now.


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## Coccodrillo

I know. I was replying to this point:



devo said:


> I cannot believe that no-one objected to those walls when the tunnel was designed.


It's evident that the 90° walls of bays in tunnels are/were not considered a problem as most if not all tunnels in Europe have them like that, just like it wasn't considered a problem having long road tunnels without parallel saferty tunnels. And just like after the Mont Blanc fire safety tunnels became basically mandatory, after this accident the bays in the future tunnels all over Europe may be designed differently.


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## earthJoker

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ This accident has nothing to do with the major concerns of road tunnels - fire.


Actually it has, the design of the SOS bays have to consider the risk of fires:


> (...)Wir werden das nun zuverlässig und rasch erarbeiten, wobei wir gerne auch auf die Überlegungen der deutschen Kollegen zurückgreifen. Aber man muss auch behutsam vorgehen. Wenn wir Fahrzeuge mit grossen Energien abweisen, besteht die grosse Gefahr, dass sie im Tunnel umhergeschleudert werden, sich überschlagen und durch die Reibung und Funkenbildung ein Brand entsteht. Auch diese Erfahrungen haben wir leider schon gemacht.


http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panoram...tory/14076122?dossier_id=1370?dossier_id=1370
Translation:


> (...)We will now develop the reliable and fast, but we also like to draw on the ideas of the German colleagues. But we also must proceed with caution. If we repulse vehicles with great energy, there is great danger that they will be thrown around in the tunnel, turn over and is caused by the friction and sparking a fire. These experiences we have unfortunately been made​​.


To summarize, this expert says that if the wall would have been 45° the bus could have bounced of and turn over, and result in a fire. One could only imagine what would have happened then.


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## Coccodrillo

Google RailView: http://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Pontre...nszePJw1aDdPGGNF7LZ0rA&cbp=12,301.99,,0,-4.61 (here on a road, to remain on-topic)


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## Verso

^^ Great stuff. But that's in Italy, not Switzerland.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Yep. I think they filmed all the way from Chur, but for some legal reason GSV doesn't have imagery of Swiss territory.


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## Coccodrillo

This particular point is in Italy, but most of the line (156 km out of 160) is in Switzerland, and I wanted to show one of the street running sections.

The rest on the line is still being uploaded, although some short sections near Pontresina and Poschiavo are already available.

There are other street running sections in Switzerland, like this shared bridge: http://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Pontre...4,10.139844&cbp=12,0,,0,0&photoid=po-24514960

Or there: http://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Pontre...2,10.078111&cbp=12,0,,0,0&photoid=po-11489876

And on the nearby Chur-Arosa line: http://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Pontre...47,9.528969&cbp=12,0,,0,0&photoid=po-35669239


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## Verso

Arosa by car is an exhausting drive.


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## cinxxx

What can you tell me about these roads?
I plan to stay 3 days in Wil (6-9 April), but also to visit Zurich and Sankt Gallen, and maybe other interesting places if there are (recommendations?). 
I don't know if it's worth to buy the vignette just for this, maybe the normal roads are more scenic?

Road to Wil and Zurich --> http://g.co/maps/hqzxn
Road to Sankt Gallen --> http://g.co/maps/de3xj
Road back home through Liechtenstein http://g.co/maps/xz82t


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## earthJoker

You miight consider one of these routes from Wil to Zürich:
http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=B...dirflg=t&mra=dvme&mrsp=2&sz=11&via=2&t=m&z=11

http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=B...X7Z0gIdbDmCAA&dirflg=t&mra=mrv&via=2&t=m&z=10

http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=B...dirflg=t&mra=dvme&mrsp=2&sz=11&via=2&t=m&z=11


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## Verso

^^ Yesterday it snowed in Slovenia as well. :nuts: I was in Switzerland when it reached 42°C in Grono in 2003.


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## lpioe

Nice pics cinxxx!
I would have made a small detour on the last day and go from Wattwil via Rickenpass to Sargans. You would have passed along the Walensee over the Kerenzerberg, it's a very scenic route.


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## cinxxx

lpioe said:


> Nice pics cinxxx!
> I would have made a small detour on the last day and go from Wattwil via Rickenpass to Sargans. You would have passed along the Walensee over the Kerenzerberg, it's a very scenic route.


Thanks!
Next time I will consider it .


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## Jeroen669

Coccodrillo said:


> The trucks were forbidden to cross the Alps for some time.


The mess was also completed by the driving ban in Italy this wednesday. I went via Mont Blanc on thursday, but drove back northbound through Switzerland (on friday) and there was practicly no delay at all. However, southbound was totally messed up though: very long delays at Chiasso, Biasca, ADS Gotthard Sud, the last few kilometres for the Gotthard and Erstfeld. hno:


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## Coccodrillo

I remember a long truck queque also on Tuesday evening (24th, the day before Italian national day) before A9-A2 border crossing at Chiasso towards the north, starting from Como Monte Olimpino exit. Usually there aren't trucks waiting on the motorway to cross the border northbound.


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## Jeroen669

That's remarkable indeed. It's often the exact opposite there: waiting cars which are blocking the truck exit.


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## Coccodrillo

Canton Lucerne will not support a second Gotthard road tunnel, because it thinks that the money available would be better spent on its territory, to increase capacity through the city of Lucerne (where the A2 has between 60.000 and 90.000 vehicles per day, compared to 17.000 on the Gotthard tunnel).


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## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> Canton Lucerne will not support a second Gotthard road tunnel


Oh, what a surprise.


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## Jeroen669

A big accident happened on the A2 between Lugano and Mendrisio this afternoon. I think a truck must have been collapsed on a car, since the car was about 2 meter shorter.

The motorway was closed for a few hours. While being stuck in a tunnel there, I saw some guy with a scottish kilt walking between the traffic and playing a bagpipe... :nuts: :lol:


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## Coccodrillo

Apaprently the car skidded hitting the truck, this truck then hit the car. Of the two passengers of the car, one suffered minor injuries, the other has got more serious injuries but his life is not in danger. One northbound lane has been reopened quickly but the problems lasted until 20.30.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk9R3kndTN0


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## Corvinus

Is there any web site where the current (approx.) waiting times at the Gotthard tunnel entries are published?


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## Coccodrillo

The TCS website is usually up to date: http://www.tcs.ch/de/auto-mobilitaet/verkehrsinfo/aktuelle-lage.php

Dates of night closures can be found here: http://www.gotthard-strassentunnel.ch/

(both websites only in DE-FR-IT)


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## Jeroen669

This is something I don't understand in the generally extremely safety-minded Switzerland: 2-way traffic on a single carriageway because of roadworks, but without physical barriers. I saw this on the roadworks near Luzern some time ago too.


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## Coccodrillo

There at least there are those cones with orange-white stripes. In Luzern there was absolutely nothing to separe the flows, except signals.


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## ChrisZwolle

This would be unthinkable in the Netherlands, where at least temporary class T3 is required on motorways. This isn't even a guardrail class.


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## Jeroen669

Coccodrillo said:


> There at least there are those cones with orange-white stripes. In Luzern there was absolutely nothing to separe the flows, except signals.


Honestly, that doesn´t make much difference. One could still easily drive on the middle lane in the wrong direction. Especially considering the heavy descent on this section, you'd rather expect a safer solution...


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## Coccodrillo

It may depend to the cantons or to the ASTRA department. I have seen traffic running in opposites directions without barrier in Lucerne (Zofingen department), but in Ticino and Graubünden (Bellinzona department) I have always seen at least very frequent and high red-white cones.


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## adaba

*Radolfzell am Bodensee - Milan A2 (Saint-Gotthardt) or A13 (San Bernardino)*

Hello,

I will be travelling on a summer Sunday morning from Radolfzell (Germany) to Milan (Italy). The distance on A2 (Zurich, Schwyz, Bellinzona) is practically the same as on A13 (Kreuzlingen, Sankt Margarethen, Chur). I've read that I may risk traffic jams at the entrance of the Saint-Gotthardt tunnel [A2], but the A13 is partially only an expressway with no separated dual lanes and speed limits to 100 km/h or 80 km/h. Which of the routes do you think will be faster ?
Thank you in advance for your tips.


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## Jeroen669

I'd take the San Bernardino route. Between Chur and Bellinzona it's not a motorway but the single-lane sections won't delay you that much, since there's no truck traffic on sunday. The jams for the Gotthard tunnel can be quite long, up to several hours. I'd avoid it around typical tourist weekends.

Btw, the route via Zürich and Luzern has a lot of limited (80/100km/h) sections as well.


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## Coccodrillo

> Switzerland, Gotthard - ch/50
> Highway
> 
> Closing Date: 02.07.2012
> 
> Open invitation to tender, deadline 02.07.2012, for refurbishment of the 32.4 km-long Pass Gotthard Road section, including several tunnels. Contract duration 31.08.2012-31.12.2020. For more visit http://www.simap.ch/shabforms/servlet/Search?NOTICE_NR=735591. Written questions before 11.06.2012. Offers to OFROU, attn Angebot 080082 EP Gotthard, Passstrasse, PV TP4 BSA, Zofingen, tel +41 6274575-11, fax -90, e-mail [email protected]. Visit http://ted.europa.eu/udl?request=Seek-Deliver&language=en&docid=162216-2012. 22/12.


http://tunnelbuilder.com/Archive/Projects/Switzerland/ch50-Highway.aspx


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## ChrisZwolle

That's not the point. An 18-year old referendum forbids new capacity on transalpine corridors, even if the EU was to fund it entirely. Besides, truckers in Switzerland pay enough tolls to build such a tunnel every few years.


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## Coccodrillo

It would be nice if the EU financed the second track of one of the two Italian branches of the Gotthard railway, in alternative or in addition to the second road tunnel...


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## Suburbanist

Switzerland is a landlocked country. It surely has been benefited the Italians (or the small quasi-states that preceded them), the French and the Austrians have allowed relatively free movement of their stuff.

And of course Italy, Germany also benefit from cross-Switzerland traffic.

So it is rather pointless to think CH is a tropical remote island being invaded by hordes of polluting Europeanites.


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## Verso

MattiG said:


> The case is not that black and white. The jam-free twin tunnel may remove the issue of the local pollution due to congestion. But it still increases the traffic bandwidth, and attracts more traffic to the Swiss transit routes. Thus, the total amount on emissions increases while the local peaks may be relieved.


It only increases capacity when it's too low, i.e. when there're traffic jams (causing a lot of polution, by the way). When traffic is already free-flowing in the existing single tube, there would be no greater capacity, if you opened another tube. People won't flock into the Gotthard tunnel just because they can cross it 3 minutes faster.


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## italystf

Verso said:


> It only increases capacity when it's too low, i.e. when there're traffic jams (causing a lot of polution, by the way). When traffic is already free-flowing in the existing single tube, there would be no greater capacity, if you opened another tube. People won't flock into the Gotthard tunnel just because they can cross it 3 minutes faster.


Right, with the same argument we should have kept the modern vehicle park circulating on the 1950 road system. So there would be huge jams and people driving less and polluting less.  Or downgrading random busy motorway sections to 1+1. 
People will drive on the new Gothard tunnel only if they'll need to be on the other side like today.


----------



## MattiG

Verso said:


> It only increases capacity when it's too low, i.e. when there're traffic jams (causing a lot of polution, by the way). When traffic is already free-flowing in the existing single tube, there would be no greater capacity, if you opened another tube. People won't flock into the Gotthard tunnel just because they can cross it 3 minutes faster.


Interesting logic.

The question was about being ecofriendly or not. The non-ecofriendliness results from congestion at the tunnel entrance. Thus, the question about what happens at the times there are no congestion has no relevance within this context.

The basic traffic flow management rule is that the total capacity of a corridor equals to the capacity of the narrowest bottleneck.

If the second tunnel were built, the capacity of the A2 corridor would double. That potentially would attract more traffic to that route, most probably from Mt Blanc and Brenner.


----------



## Verso

MattiG said:


> Interesting logic.
> 
> The question was about being ecofriendly or not. The non-ecofriendliness results from congestion at the tunnel entrance. Thus, the question about what happens at the times there are no congestion has no relevance within this context.
> 
> The basic traffic flow management rule is that the total capacity of a corridor equals to the capacity of the narrowest bottleneck.
> 
> If the second tunnel were built, the capacity of the A2 corridor would double. That potentially would attract more traffic to that route, most probably from Mt Blanc and Brenner.


You're right, I actually meant traffic, not capacity. If there was so much traffic on the A2, there should be constant traffic jams before the Gotthard tunnel, but AFAIK, they're regular only in summer. As long as there's no traffic jam before the tunnel, that means that traffic wouldn't increase much, if you opened another tube. Unless you think it would significantly increase in the future, but the A2 runs through a sparsely-populated area there. And most importantly, it's locals (the Swiss) who wouldn't decide to drive through the tunnel due to traffic jams, not foreigners. Germans won't cancel their vacations just because of some traffic jam. So it's ecological Swiss who want to prevent driving to those Swiss who'd like to drive through the tunnel (locals mostly).


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## ChrisZwolle

MattiG said:


> If the second tunnel were built, the capacity of the A2 corridor would double. That potentially would attract more traffic to that route, most probably from Mt Blanc and Brenner.


It depends. Truck tolls in Switzerland are so high that for most of Italy (even the Milano area), detouring via the Brenner Autobahn is cheaper. Plus the bureaucratic hassle to get through Switzerland, both at the borders and the truck controls before the Gotthard Tunnel. 

For most tourist traffic, the Brenner is already a better option because except for the Lago di Como area, most tourist areas in Italy are better served by the Brenner Autobahn. 

Truck traffic across the Brenner Autobahn did increase after Switzerland introduced the LSVA (Truck Tolls). However, it is unlikely to switch back to the Gotthard Tunnel if capacity increases, mainly because traffic congestion at the Gotthard Tunnel is not an issue to truck drivers as they are banned on the busiest days. The whole problem with the Gotthard is not truck traffic (there isn't much) but holiday traffic. This is a year-round problem, not just a few summer weekends, but many weekends, also in the winter and spring and around public holidays. 

While the number of vehicles stuck in traffic congestion at the Gotthard is generally less than say around Zürich or Basel, the delays are much more significant.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> It depends. Truck tolls in Switzerland are so high that for most of Italy (even the Milano area), detouring via the Brenner Autobahn is cheaper. Plus the bureaucratic hassle to get through Switzerland, both at the borders and the truck controls before the Gotthard Tunnel.
> 
> True. When we are not loading/unloading in Switzerland, we avoid it like the plague, because even for vans it's simply too much hassle dealing with the transit paperwork on both the French and Italian borders with Switzerland. So we go either Brenner, Mont Blanc or Frejus way. Empty we nearly always go through Swiss, except when we got business in Bozen, or when I go home to Mayrhofen.
> 
> For most tourist traffic, the Brenner is already a better option because except for the Lago di Como area, most tourist areas in Italy are better served by the Brenner Autobahn.
> 
> Not true. All traffic coming from North and Eastern France, Benelux, the UK and western Germany are better off through Swiss. It saves 100 to 160 km going to most of Italy, including towards Rome, the Mediterranean and the Adriatic. (A1, A14). Brenner would only serve Garda Lake. There are hardly any Dutch, French and English crossing the Brenner, but they are all there queuing at the Gotthard. Also it`s cheaper. 30 euros for a year vignette is no match against the extra tolls (Brenner 8 euros each way), Austrian vignette (10 days 8 euros) and the extra tolls in Italy.
> 
> 
> Truck traffic across the Brenner Autobahn did increase after Switzerland introduced the LSVA (Truck Tolls). However, it is unlikely to switch back to the Gotthard Tunnel if capacity increases, mainly because traffic congestion at the Gotthard Tunnel is not an issue to truck drivers as they are banned on the busiest days. The whole problem with the Gotthard is not truck traffic (there isn't much) but holiday traffic. This is a year-round problem, not just a few summer weekends, but many weekends, also in the winter and spring and around public holidays.
> 
> While the number of vehicles stuck in traffic congestion at the Gotthard is generally less than say around Zürich or Basel, the delays are much more significant.


...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> Not true. All traffic coming from North and Eastern France, Benelux, the UK and western Germany are better off through Swiss. It saves 100 to 160 km going to most of Italy, including towards Rome, the Mediterranean and the Adriatic. (A1, A14). Brenner would only serve Garda Lake. There are hardly any Dutch, French and English crossing the Brenner, but they are all there queuing at the Gotthard. Also it`s cheaper. 30 euros for a year vignette is no match against the extra tolls (Brenner 8 euros each way), Austrian vignette (10 days 8 euros) and the extra tolls in Italy.


If you go from the Netherlands to Rome it's only a detour of 30 kilometers if you drive via the Fernpass and Brennerpass. If you want to keep the motorway via Nürnberg and München it's an additional 100 km. 

By the way, the Swiss vignette is not cheaper than the Austrian tolls anymore. If you pay 4 x € 8, it's € 32 to get through Austria two times, while 40 CHF is currently € 33,30. This is due to the high exchange rate of the Swiss Franc. Just about a year ago or so the Swiss vignette was still about € 5 cheaper. Gassing up in Austria is also probably cheaper nowadays, especially Diesel.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Verso said:


> You're right, I actually meant traffic, not capacity. If there was so much traffic on the A2, there should be constant traffic jams before the Gotthard tunnel, but AFAIK, they're regular only in summer.


That's an argument being used by the Romands (french-speaking Swiss who rarely use the Gotthard motorway, even to go to Canton Ticino) _against_ the second tunnel (they would prefer that money used on their territory).



ChrisZwolle said:


> It depends. Truck tolls in Switzerland are so high that for most of Italy (even the Milano area), detouring via the Brenner Autobahn is cheaper.


I wonder if this will change with the Eurovignette (not the absolute values of the tolls, but if considering the extra fuel the Brenner will still be cheaper).



ChrisZwolle said:


> The whole problem with the Gotthard is not truck traffic (there isn't much) but holiday traffic.


My worry is not a 2+2 road tunnel (with the rest of the Alpen-Initiative still in place), but the single track/low capacity railway lines in Northern Italy...I fear that rail capacity will not be sufficient...



ChrisZwolle said:


> By the way, the Swiss vignette is not cheaper than the Austrian tolls anymore. If you pay 4 x € 8, it's € 32 to get through Austria two times, while 40 CHF is currently € 33,30. This is due to the high exchange rate of the Swiss Franc. Just about a year ago or so the Swiss vignette was still about € 5 cheaper. Gassing up in Austria is also probably cheaper nowadays, especially Diesel.


Latest news are for a yearly vignette of 70 CHF/58 EUR. I haven't heard of the two months vignette anymore, although this doesn't mean it will not exist.

[email protected]_UK: how do you manage to pay tolls as you use a RHD vehicle on the continent where toll booths are on the left?


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## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Not true. All traffic coming from North and Eastern France, Benelux, the UK and western Germany are better off through Swiss. It saves 100 to 160 km going to most of Italy, including towards Rome, the Mediterranean and the Adriatic. (A1, A14). Brenner would only serve Garda Lake. *There are hardly any Dutch, French and English crossing the Brenner*, but they are all there queuing at the Gotthard. Also it`s cheaper. 30 euros for a year vignette is no match against the extra tolls (Brenner 8 euros each way), Austrian vignette (10 days 8 euros) and the extra tolls in Italy.


In my experience, the Dutch are the second most frequent nationality at the Brenner, after of course the Germans and even before the Austrians. Maybe not around the year, but surely in summer.


----------



## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> That's an argument being used by the Romands (french-speaking Swiss who rarely use the Gotthard motorway, even to go to Canton Ticino) _against_ the second tunnel (they would prefer that money used on their territory).


Of course, they live in Switzerland, they want as much money as possible from Bern, but Gotthard traffic jams are annoying enough to warrant a second tube.


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> That's an argument being used by the Romands (french-speaking Swiss who rarely use the Gotthard motorway, even to go to Canton Ticino) _against_ the second tunnel (they would prefer that money used on their territory).


They can probably be appeased with an 1+1 Interlaken - Visp (rough direction) tunnel and a tunnel of Neufenpaß to connect Ticino with Valais.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Verso said:


> Of course, they live in Switzerland, they want as much money as possible from Bern, but Gotthard traffic jams are annoying enough to warrant a second tube.


It's probably going to be built by 2027, with 2+2 from 2033. Just a little patience.



Suburbanist said:


> They can probably be appeased with an 1+1 Interlaken - Visp (rough direction) tunnel and a tunnel of Neufenpaß to connect Ticino with Valais.


Nobody is asking for a road there. The last request from Wallis was for a rail tunnel, which has been built and well used. It had to offer an Eurotunnel Shuttle-like service, but this has been abandoned (and still nobody is asking for it).


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ The point is that fussy Swiss have taken over valley politics and they vote with 1430 mentality.

Not a Swiss thing only though. There are some valleys in Italy taken by these people, but there the gov't can just ignore the drama and whining and built infrastructure.

My day dream: some tunnel linking Tasch with Cervinia (Italy).


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## Coccodrillo

What's the problem if the main users of a projected road don't ask for its construction?


----------



## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> It's probably going to be built by 2027, with 2+2 from 2033. Just a little patience.


Just two decades left. :lol: No problem for me though, I haven't been to Switzerland since 2008. 



Coccodrillo said:


> What's the problem if the main users of a projected road don't ask for its construction?


They're probably nationalist fools and by far not the only users. How do you know they don't want it anyway?


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> What's the problem if the main users of a projected road don't ask for its construction?


Just because somebody live near an infrastructure installation doesn't mean they are necessarily their main users


----------



## mcarling

MattiG said:


> The case is not that black and white. The jam-free twin tunnel may remove the issue of the local pollution due to congestion. But it still increases the traffic bandwidth, and attracts more traffic to the Swiss transit routes. Thus, the total amount on emissions increases while the local peaks may be relieved.


Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. It is possible, but unlikely, that opening another tunnel would add enough additional traffic to increase pollution more than pollution would be reduced by the reduction of congestion.



MattiG said:


> I can very well understand the attitude in Switzerland. The small country is surrounded by EU countries. If the EU wants to improve the north-south connections, why Switzerland should build those on behalf of the EU.


Would it help to have a more direct motorway from Bergamo to Bolzano, perhaps running near the SS42? With some tunnels, it might be possible to cut about 50km versus the A4/A22 route.

How about extending Germany's A7 and A95 to intersection with Austria's A12 near Innsbruck?

On the west side of Switzerland, France could perhaps extend the A404 northward to intersect with the A36 near Montbéliard.

In short, the EU could build a ring road around Switzerland if Switzerland is impeding traffic on a large enough scale. Obviously, the terrain and distances would make this the world's most expensive ring road.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Verso said:


> Just two decades left. :lol: No problem for me though, I haven't been to Switzerland since 2008.


15 years before decision and opening is actually an extremely short period of time, here.



Verso said:


> They're probably nationalist fools and by far not the only users. How do you know they don't want it anyway?


I have never heard any request of a Bern-Valais/Wallis road, and I'm not aware of any protest after the cancellation of the Rawil autostrasse. Sure, there might have been, but I have never heard of (obviously, I searched in the past more infos about that).

I'm well aware of the eternal discussion for the AlpTransit rail tunnels thought, as every region wanted one. To build the Gotthard one one through the Lötschberg had to be built (a good idea, by the way), while the requests of eastern Switzerland have not been heard (as a Splügen rail tunnel would not serve internal traffic).



Suburbanist said:


> Just because somebody live near an infrastructure installation doesn't mean they are necessarily their main users


With no Simplon road tunnel and a 2+2 Gotthard tunnel the interest of a Bern-Valais road would be mainly local (except for Bern-Italy trips).


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> If you go from the Netherlands to Rome it's only a detour of 30 kilometers if you drive via the Fernpass and Brennerpass. If you want to keep the motorway via Nürnberg and München it's an additional 100 km.
> 
> By the way, the Swiss vignette is not cheaper than the Austrian tolls anymore. If you pay 4 x € 8, it's € 32 to get through Austria two times, while 40 CHF is currently € 33,30. This is due to the high exchange rate of the Swiss Franc. Just about a year ago or so the Swiss vignette was still about € 5 cheaper. Gassing up in Austria is also probably cheaper nowadays, especially Diesel.


In most of the tourist seasons Austrian and German radio stations advise people against using the Fernpass. Ungoing roadworks and Blockabfertigung at the Füssentunnel doesn't get you anywhere fast. I usually use Fernpass at night or early mornings only. 



g.spinoza said:


> In my experience, the Dutch are the second most frequent nationality at the Brenner, after of course the Germans and even before the Austrians. Maybe not around the year, but surely in summer.


Well they would be in summer. Tyrol (both north and south) are very popular with the Dutch, Mayrhofen is full of Dutch holidaymakers right now. But to the rest of Italy they intend to use Gotthard, and I always see a hell of a lot more Dutch there then transiting on the A22. A lot of them with caravans broken down, because of the heat inside the tunnel. The whole of Tyrol heads down to the Garda Lake every summer. And there is a lot of Germany between Kufstein and Berlin that are better off using Brenner. Everything in the west will use Gotthard. I use Brenner, Gotthard and Mont Blanc on a very regular basis, but back to Calais empty I will ALWAYS use Gotthard if I am not stopping in Mayrhofen. 



mcarling said:


> How about extending Germany's A7 and A95 to intersection with Austria's A12 near Innsbruck?


Do you really want to build a motorway through Seefeld and Fernpass?
Are you nuts? Decades ago they were talking about a motorway through the Zillertal, linking the A12 with Italy. Nuts, nuts, nuts!!!


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ They should link Fussen and Innsbruck with a highway, and do the same with Garmisch-Partenkirschen.


----------



## Road_UK

Local authorities, as well as the local population will never allow a highway through tourist centres and beautiful sceneries like the Fernpass, Garmisch, Seefeld and Scharnitz. Forget it, it's not going to happen.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Local authorities, as well as the local population will never allow a highway through tourist centres and beautiful sceneries like the Fernpass, Garmisch, Seefeld and Scharnitz. Forget it, it's not going to happen.


But I'm sure Garmischers (or better: Partenkircheners) are sick and tired of all traffic through their nice city. Oberau and Farchant, just few km north, were so sick and tired that they demanded - and obtained - an autobahnlich bypass.


----------



## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> 15 years before decision and opening is actually an extremely short period of time, here.


Is that because of wasting time, or procedures in Switzerland last so long?



Coccodrillo said:


> I have never heard any request of a Bern-Valais/Wallis road


I meant a second tube of Gotthard, not a Bern-Valais road. I know locals are particularly worried about pollution of their environment, but don't they get tired of waiting in traffic jams or driving over the Gotthard mountain pass?


----------



## Road_UK

After Scharnitz the valley is not wide enough to have AND a motorway, AND villages, AND farmhouses, AND tourist facilities, AND peace and quiet next to each other. It will scare of the tourists, which is the main source of income for the Tyrolians. Someone on here opted a link between Holzkirchen and AS Wiesing on the A12 through Achensee. I think this idea came from a flatlander in the north, Holland or something...


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> After Scharnitz the valley is not wide enough to have AND a motorway, AND [...]


Tunnels can make miracles.
Main problem is not width, but steepness.


----------



## Road_UK

I just don't think it will happen...


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## g.spinoza

Me neither.


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## ChrisZwolle

ASFiNAG is currently trying to reduce its debt, so I wouldn't expect any new large projects in Austria until 2020, except for the planned major projects around Wien. 

There isn't much to complain about Austria's road network. Tunnels have been doubled or will be doubled in the near future, leaving only the Arlbergtunnel to be single tube out of the major road tunnels. But there isn't that much traffic on that corridor except for maybe 2 or 3 weekends in the winter. Fernpass is more problematic, though it's not really that hard to solve with a couple of tunnels <6 km.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Verso said:


> Is that because of wasting time, or procedures in Switzerland last so long?


Nothing can be built in Switzerland is funding is entirely secured (either having it cash, or a way to find it (like a new tax). Then there are endless discussion to decide if a particular project is really useful or not, and then to choose the best variant.

Usually (recently) money is not directly allocated to projects, but firstly to a fund. I can cite a rail example as I know it better (but it's similar for roads). In the 1990s it was approved by a referendum an investment of 31,5 billions for railways with a defined source of income. Obviously there was already a quite precise idea of what to build with that money, but some particular projects were cancelled and replaced with others, with works between 1995 and 2025. In 2010 the government started planning another group of projects to be built from 2020 to...2040.

More recently (2006?) another fund has been created for roads and urban transports with funds for 20,8 billions (of which 6 billions for urban projects, both road and public transport - the rest is entirely for roads). It's via this fund that are being financed most new motorways (A8, A9, A16) and widenings. Money for the second Gotthard road tunnel must come from another source as these 20,8 billions have already been allocated at least politically - so finding money will be the main obstacle for its construction.

And as big expenses usually end up in referendums, these big groups of projects with relative funding usually have to be prepared as to make every region happy. If it isn't the case they are likely to be rejected by voters. For example the AlpTransit project (part of these 31,5 billions) has been accepted because it offered a rail tunnel for the western cantons, one for the central ones and upgrades of lines in the east. But others like the Avanti projects (proposed by road lobbies) has been rejected, if I remember correctly there was basically a widening to 2x3 of most of the A1, the second Gotthard tunnel (2+2), some other road projects and some public transport ones (to try to catch more votes).



Verso said:


> I meant a second tube of Gotthard, not a Bern-Valais road. I know locals are particularly worried about pollution of their environment, but don't they get tired of waiting in traffic jams or driving over the Gotthard mountain pass?


Apparently not - voters even in Ticino have always voted against the second tunnel and in favour of rail projects until now.

(for Uri it's the same, and they don't even have to cross the Alps to go to the other cantons)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> Nothing can be built in Switzerland is funding is entirely secured


Interesting. Due to the incredibly slow work pace of A9 and A16 I expected them to fund only sections at the time. The Netherlands also need 100% funding before construction can begin but when it starts it's usually completed very rapidly (1 - 3 years mostly). Germany often cuts larger projects up in very small fragments, some of which are not fully funded. That's why some projects are going at a snail's pace.


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## Coccodrillo

We can say that the funding of A9 and A16 is secured, but not that the money is available. I can explain with the example of the 31,5 billions fund for railways I know better. It was approved mid-1990s, and since then it is filled with around 1,5 billions a year. There aren't 31,5 billions yet, but they are reserved, in the sense that the unspent but still non-earned money of these 31,5 cannot be used for other things than what is planned in the fund (although single projects can be modified, for example a tunnel near Zürich has been replaced by upgrade of lines around Lausanne).

To allow a quicker construction of enormous single projects in a reasonable time like the Gotthard base tunnel (10 billions) the government has anticipated some money to this fund, but the fund will have to repay it in the future. But also there, boring of the Ceneri base tunnel (the third of three main AlpTransit rail tunnels) started only when building of the Lötschberg was nearly finished.

For roads it's similar, so even if there would be enough money to build more quickly the A9 or the A16 alone, it is seen as politically better to build something in every region (not only for these two motorways - also parts of the A8 and others roads are funded by the same fund) rather than building quickly the A9, then the A16 or viceversa. However there is "virtual" money for everything, so there is no risk of works being abandoned because of lack of funds.

The government is working right now on a new fund for other rail projects, and I think another for roads is in the planning stage.


----------



## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> (for Uri it's the same, and they don't even have to cross the Alps to go to the other cantons)


Ticino and Italy?


----------



## thun

g.spinoza said:


> But I'm sure Garmischers (or better: Partenkircheners) are sick and tired of all traffic through their nice city. Oberau and Farchant, just few km north, were so sick and tired that they demanded - and obtained - an autobahnlich bypass.


They actually argue for decades about a GAP bypass. There are as many Garmisch-Partenkircheners in favour as there are against this project as the Upper Bavarians in this region tend to be very big NIMBYs. :lol: Anyway, if the GAP bypass should be constructed (not only for B2, but also another one for Garmisch connecting B2 with the cablecars and Fernpass) this would be the end of any updates for a long time in that region.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Verso said:


> Ticino and Italy?


Most common destinations for Uri's citizens are around Lucerne-Zug-Zürich so they don't need the road tunnel, while to the south they also have the train. For Ticino it's different, although most trips are around the city of residence, Ticino-Northern Switzerland trips are quite relevant.


----------



## Verso

I can hardly believe that an average Uri resident goes to south less often than an average (southwestern) German.


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## Coccodrillo

Maybe not via the motorway, as last year they voted against a second tunnel. So either they don't go south frequently, or go there by the pass or by train, or simply they don't want another tunnel.


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## Coccodrillo

Tolls may be a way to finance new road projects, like the second road tunnel and the lake crossing of Geneva.

However the toll for Basel-Chiasso trips for a truck cannot exceed 325 CHF because of agreements with the EU. 325 CHF corresponded to around 220 EUR when the agreement were signed, equals to around 270 EUR today and may become...325 EUR or more if the Swiss national bank will not be able to maintain the current exchange rate in the future. The toll for a trip through the Fréjus or Mont Blanc tunnels for trucks is around 300 € with discounts for frequent users (plus the tolls for nearby motorways). The Brenner motorway is cheaper, I remember 130 euro for a similar 300 km trip but I can't find the source.

http://www.lematin.ch/suisse/berne-envisage-peage-gothard/story/22976106


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## ChrisZwolle

The cost of fuel and tolls actually decrease if you travel with more people, while it only goes up if you travel by train or airline. People only fly to destinations that are out of reasonable driving range. Many people pick their vacation spot that's within reasonable driving range, usually 1.5 days or less. 

Switzerland actually benefits from through travel too, because for instance for many Dutch people it is a perfect intermediate stop on their way to Italy. Hotels in central Switzerland can do good business, although they are generally quite expensive.


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## Fabri88

ChrisZwolle said:


> The cost of fuel and tolls actually decrease if you travel with more people, while it only goes up if you travel by train or airline. People only fly to destinations that are out of reasonable driving range. Many people pick their vacation spot that's within reasonable driving range, usually 1.5 days or less.
> 
> Switzerland actually benefits from through travel too, because for instance for many Dutch people it is a perfect intermediate stop on their way to Italy. Hotels in central Switzerland can do good business, although they are generally quite expensive.


^^

I agree! This summer many Dutch firends of mine came to my house with their own car and obviously they drove through Switzerland!

Two of them stopped at Engelberg (Obwalden) for some days in the mountains. Swiss hotels quite expensive? I think "quite" is a too soft adjective: they are freaking expensive!

Hotels in Germany cost far far less than Swiss ones!


----------



## Sunfuns

OK, I downgrade it to merely non-common. 

Vast majority of cars on the road are people commuting to and from work, performing work related tasks, visiting friends nearby, for shopping etc. Just look at the license numbers of cars. For example, here in Basel anything other than Swiss, German (from the closest two bundeslands) and French are rather rare. I would estimate at no more than 1/50 (significantly more in heavily touristy areas).


----------



## Fabri88

Sunfuns said:


> OK, I downgrade it to merely non-common.
> 
> Vast majority of cars on the road are people commuting to and from work, performing work related tasks, visiting friends nearby, for shopping etc. Just look at the license numbers of cars. For example, here in Basel anything other than Swiss, German (from the closest two bundeslands) and France are rather rare. I would estimate at no more than 1/50 (significantly more in heavily touristy areas).


Plates on Italian roads are mostly Swiss, German, Dutch, French and British. But we never get surprised when seeing plates coming from (North)Eastern Europe or trucks from Turkey or Spain/Portugal.

I only got surprised when I saw a truck with Iranian plate and a motorbike with Norwegian plate.

Then, for people living in northern Italy is more rare to see southern Italian plates rather than see a Swiss or a German one!


----------



## Sunfuns

Fabri88 said:


> Plates on Italian roads are mostly Swiss, German, Dutch, French and British. But we never get surprised when seeing plates coming from (North)Eastern Europe or trucks from Turkey or Spain/Portugal.
> 
> I only got surprised when I saw a truck with Iranian plate and a motorbike with Norwegian plate.


I don't get surprised either. After all even 1/50 is not THAT rare. I'm yet to see anything more distant that Russia, though. 

By the way from the less common number plates Dutch are probably the most likely to be seen.


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## mcarling

Sunfuns said:


> OK, I downgrade it to merely non-common.


Fair enough. I'm glad we're able to agree on that. 



Sunfuns said:


> Vast majority of cars on the road are people commuting to and from work, performing work related tasks, visiting friends nearby, for shopping etc. Just look at the license numbers of cars. For example, here in Basel anything other than Swiss, German (from the closest two bundeslands) and French are rather rare. I would estimate at no more than 1/50 (significantly more in heavily touristy areas).


The context was the Gottard Tunnel, no? I don't think you believe that the "Vast majority of cars on the road" through the Gottard Tunnel "are people commuting to and from work, performing work related tasks, visiting friends nearby, for shopping etc." Perhaps I'm confused?


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## Sunfuns

mcarling said:


> The context was the Gottard Tunnel, no? I don't think you believe that the "Vast majority of cars on the road" through the Gottard Tunnel "are people commuting to and from work, performing work related tasks, visiting friends nearby, for shopping etc." Perhaps I'm confused?


Sorry, of course now I meant regular roads and motorways near any sizable town.


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## Suburbanist

IF the Swiss have problem with truck traffic, than re-do the law to limit with dynamic lanes truck traffic without interfering with car traffic. 

Cars now pollute, per km-driven, 40-60% less than when that hideous law was passed in 1997.


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## Fabri88

Suburbanist said:


> IF the Swiss have problem with truck traffic, than re-do the law to limit with dynamic lanes truck traffic without interfering with car traffic.
> 
> Cars now pollute, per km-driven, 40-60% less than when that hideous law was passed in 1997.


Which law is there in CH?


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## Coccodrillo

Costituzione federale della Confederazione Svizzera > Art. 84 Transito alpino
http://www.admin.ch/ch/i/rs/101/a84.html

Legge federale del 17 giugno 1994 concernente il transito stradale nella regione alpina (LTS)
http://www.admin.ch/ch/i/rs/c725_14.html

Legge federale del 19 dicembre 2008 concernente il trasferimento dalla strada alla ferrovia del traffico merci pesante attraverso le Alpi (Legge sul trasferimento del traffico merci, LTrasf)
http://www.admin.ch/ch/i/rs/c740_1.html

(every text in German/French/Italian)


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## Road_UK

Are you a Swiss Italian speaker?


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## Coccodrillo

^^ yes, but I speak also French quite well (reading and writing nearly as easily as in Italian) - but not so much German (I cannot write and speak it easily, reading is more easy, but I am improving myself in my free time). At school I studied French, German and English on the same school year, but later I swapped German with Spanish. And I didn't went to a linguistic school, just a normal one - living in a multilingual country is a challenge but also a great opportunity.


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## Road_UK

Well done. My home languages are English and Dutch, as my dad is English and my mum is Dutch. On top of that I speak German and a little French.


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## ChrisZwolle

Knowing your languages is a great asset in my opinion.


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## Fabri88

Road_UK said:


> Are you a Swiss Italian speaker?


As far as I know, Coccodrillo is from Ticino, so (s)he's an Italian mother tongue!


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## Zagor666

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ yes, but I speak also French quite well (reading and writing nearly as easily as in Italian) - but not so much German (I cannot write and speak it easily, reading is more easy, but I am improving myself in my free time). At school I studied French, German and English on the same school year, but later I swapped German with Spanish. And I didn't went to a linguistic school, just a normal one - living in a multilingual country is a challenge but also a great opportunity.


Are you Claudio Castagnoli? :colgate:


----------



## lpioe

The parliament of the canton of Bern has approved the height increase of the dam wall at the Grimselpass by 23 m. The road would have to be realigned near the Hospiz.
Environmental organisations have already announced to appeal against it...


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## ChrisZwolle

Environmentalists are against everything. Coal power plant? too dirty. Nuclear energy? too dangerous. Wind turbines? Disturbing and a threat to birds. Hydropower? Too destructive.


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## Coccodrillo

That's already good that 55% of our electricity production/need is by hydropower, although if it can be increased it's only better. 40% is nuclear and 5% others (wind, solar, waste burning).

(similar percentages in Austria with thermal instead of nuclear)


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## Zagor666

lpioe said:


> The parliament of the canton of Bern has approved the height increase of the dam wall at the Grimselpass by 23 m. The road would have to be realigned near the Hospiz.
> Environmental organisations have already announced to appeal against it...


Wow,thats looks pretty weird,but also very interesting :cheers:


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## Vaud

ChrisZwolle said:


> Environmentalists are against everything. Coal power plant? too dirty. Nuclear energy? too dangerous. Wind turbines? Disturbing and a threat to birds. Hydropower? Too destructive.


One of the few times I agree with what you say... if it were for them there would be no civilization, they're always complaining but offer no real alternatives.


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## Suburbanist

Vaud said:


> One of the few times I agree with what you say... if it were for them there would be no civilization, they're always complaining but offer no real alternatives.


Which is the reason I always dismiss arguments against a given road/railway/dam/power plant on "local nuisance and damagE"


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## Coccodrillo

Sometimes there are other alternatives than new roads.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah more congestion.


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## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Environmentalists are against everything. Coal power plant? too dirty. Nuclear energy? too dangerous. Wind turbines? Disturbing and a threat to birds. Hydropower? Too destructive.





Vaud said:


> One of the few times I agree with what you say... if it were for them there would be no civilization, they're always complaining but offer no real alternatives.


There are environmentalists and there are environmentalists. I for one think nuclear energy's necessary, at least in the short term, despite the risks. Which are still probably less than the risks (geopolitical ones as well as environmental) of continued dependence on imported fossil fuels.




Suburbanist said:


> Which is the reason I always dismiss arguments against a given road/railway/dam/power plant on "local nuisance and damagE"


Whole other subject. Wanting the whole world to look like Los Angeles and ****-you-if-you-don't-agree-with-me-when-I-want-to-pave-over-your-neighborhood* is not principled anti-environmentalism; it's just... well, I don't know what to call it, but I don't like it.

*What ever happened to Nima Farid?


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I'm referring to the main tactic of any environmentalist in regard of infrastructure works: "it's going to irreversible damage xyz". 

Of course, any time you do earthwork or build a permanent structure it will permanently alter the landscape!


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Well, the general discussion over the last few days about Autobahnen in places like the Tyrol....

Which I haven't participated in because I think both sides have a legitimate point of view, and the answer is to come up with a decision-making process that gives both (or all) sides a say.

(As opposed to digging up old maps of projects canceled 40 years ago, starting a thread titled "Canceled Freeways Must Be Built" and then denying, if pressed, that you actually think that. That was a trip!)

:cheers:


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yeah more congestion.


Or a traffic ban, or an improvement on other means (including walking), or forcing traffic to use alternative roads, or better urban/landscape planning (like building supermarkets/hospitals/etc far from motorways and public transport), ...

Sometimes these can be an alternative, if not forever, temporary and acceptable.

Sure, sometimes also a road is the best alternative (like the third lane on the common part of A1 and A2 in Switzerland, the A4 Gotthard-Zürich or Zürich's bypass). But only if there are really no other options.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yep, banning and forcing. That's how unrealistic idealists approach transportation issues. Repression of other people's behavior is their way of thinking. hno:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Off topic to Switzerland (I'll put it in Roadside Rest as well) but on topic to, um, balancing methods of transportation:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/05/b...rld&adxnnlx=1346868003-i5aB+3qdt4+S1jM4Q7Sj/Q

One of China's leading car-manufacturing cities is limiting its citizens' ability to acquire new cars.


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## Suburbanist

^^ That can only work in authoritarian countries. Not in Western Europe (legally they might try that but the political repercussions would make it impossible).


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yep, banning and forcing. That's how unrealistic idealists approach transportation issues. Repression of other people's behavior is their way of thinking. hno:


It's that some people think that space, fuel or a good environment is endless or not necessary, and think that going wherever they want with their car it's their right. Doing that, they damage other citizens - but they don't care about that...

If a resource is limited and cannot be expanded (or cannot be easily) then the demand should be limited - like in hotels or airplanes, where if they are full, extra users have to search for alternatives.

Enlarging the A123456 in the endless plain of the Netherlands may be good, destroying a city to widen an urban street or building a new road through mountains is usually not. So downgrading country roads as they do in the Netherlands it's stupid, creating obstacles to car use in cities or mountains is good.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> If a resource is limited and cannot be expanded (or cannot be easily) then the demand should be limited - like in hotels or airplanes, where if they are full, extra users have to search for alternatives.


There are no such problems with the Gotthard or other necessary road projects in Switzerland. A second Gotthard tube is perfectly possible, both technically and financially. The truckers pay enough tolls in Switzerland to finance a new tube every three years. A widening of several parts of the A1 is also perfectly possible.

Nobody's talking about building motorways through every valley of the Alps, but the few links that do exist are simply too weak and unreliable now. If a train was as unreliable as the Gotthard route, there would be immense political outcry over it. There is only one motorway-standard route through the Alps (Brenner Autobahn) to connect a country of 82 million and a country of 60 million with Switzerland and Austria in between, and if they like it or not, people and goods will be moved to and through them. It's much better to strengthen existing links than building new links. That includes the A2.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Environmentalists are against everything. Coal power plant? too dirty. Nuclear energy? too dangerous. Wind turbines? Disturbing and a threat to birds. Hydropower? Too destructive.


I agree with those against coal and nuclear, other no.


----------



## Coccodrillo

If you ask me, I agree that another full motorway between Italy and North Europe is acceptable, also if that is the Gotthard (I don't think it's urgent, though, as there are other road bottlenecks in Switzerland and the Gotthard Pass it's not a so bad alternative for cars). However, I also think that if there is an acceptable rail alternative use of this should be forced whenever possible. So tourist cars which come together in summer and some other days (but are practically absent from October to May) don't have alternatives and that's ok if they use the A2. But I don't think that the more or lest constant (without peaks and lows) flux of trucks really cannot be moved by rail. So I would fully agree their ban, if a rail alternative will be available (not or not only a Basel-Chiasso shuttle carrying complete trucks as it is economically unviable, but services like Milano-Rhein Ruhr or Milano-Amsterdam carrying semitrailers only (or, better, containers and swap bodies)).

To give this rail alternative intermodal yards are needed, but as there is basically no place in Ticino (the very rare plains are already nearly all used or far from the border) they should be built in Italy (also east of Milano, as Hupac asks). But with a 2x2 Gotthard tunnel, the chances Italy will do something for rail will be even lower than they are today...

So next year (or maybe in 2014?) I will certainly vote "no" to the second Gotthard road tunnel, but I would probably vote differently if rail was improved...

As for the truck tax it will not be possible to use it otherwise at least until the FinÖV/FTP rail fund is paid pack (if you remember, I said some weeks ago that in Switzerland public works cannot start if there is not all the needed money from the beginning or a fixed way to finance them) (in the case of this rail fund, to accelerate works the government lent some money to that fund, so the fund will later have to bay back that).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Gotthard Tunnel happens to have a birthday today, it turns 32 years old! It opened September 5, 1980.


----------



## mcarling

Coccodrillo said:


> It's that some people think that space, fuel or a good environment is endless or not necessary, and think that going wherever they want with their car it's their right. Doing that, they damage other citizens - but they don't care about that...


That's the standard problem of negative externalities. The solution is a Pigouvian tax that internalizes all the costs upon the persons doing the damage.



italystf said:


> I agree with those against coal and nuclear, other no.


Coal kills more people every year than all the nuclear power plant accidents so far combined. We could have a Chernobyl scale incident every year and coal would still be more deadly. Of course, I'm not advocating more Chernobyl scale incidents. I support replacing all the soviet reactors with Generation III reactors.

The Generation III nuclear power plants being built now are about 100 times safer than the Generation II nuclear power plants which represent nearly all the currently operating plants. Wisely, all the Generation I plants have been shut down.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Gotthard Tunnel happens to have a birthday today, it turns 32 years old! It opened September 5, 1980.


When I first drove through it in the summer of 2000, I didn't even know it was the longest road tunnel in the world.


----------



## Fabri88

ChrisZwolle said:


> Environmentalists are against everything. Coal power plant? too dirty. Nuclear energy? too dangerous. Wind turbines? Disturbing and a threat to birds. Hydropower? Too destructive.


Sadly true!!!


----------



## Fabri88

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yeah more congestion.


^^

100% Agree!!!


----------



## Fabri88

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are no such problems with the Gotthard or other necessary road projects in Switzerland. A second Gotthard tube is perfectly possible, both technically and financially. The truckers pay enough tolls in Switzerland to finance a new tube every three years. A widening of several parts of the A1 is also perfectly possible.
> 
> Nobody's talking about building motorways through every valley of the Alps, but the few links that do exist are simply too weak and unreliable now. If a train was as unreliable as the Gotthard route, there would be immense political outcry over it. There is only one motorway-standard route through the Alps (Brenner Autobahn) to connect a country of 82 million and a country of 60 million with Switzerland and Austria in between, and if they like it or not, people and goods will be moved to and through them.* It's much better to strengthen existing links than building new links. That includes the A2*.


The fact is that, reading Swiss laws, no other roads will be built and those existing will not be developed!

So, apart from the new Gotthard tube, road situation in Switzerland will be always the same in the incoming years.

Thank God for Gotthardtunnel! Without it crossing Switzerland it would be a real challenge!


----------



## Fabri88

Coccodrillo said:


> rail


Rail: so, as I wrote before, in Busto Arsizio, not far from Swiss Border, there's the largest intermodal terminal in Europe, the HUPAC.

The pity is that is built on a secondary rail-line, that's good for trains heading to Geneva but absolutely not for trains heading to Zürich and then to Germany, Netherlands and Denmark.

The ideal thing to do is to build up a good rail line connecting Busto Arsizio - Gallarate - Varese and then to Mendrisio.

In Italy we're prolonging the A8 to Gaggiolo (the first Italian town after Stabio, located in Ticino). It would be a good thing to let the Stabio/Gaggiolo border become a very important border in order to split traffic between Stabio/Gaggiolo and Chiasso/Como border.

Linking the province of Varese to the so called "Mendrisiotto" with rail and new motorway it's a real good thing to do!

This is only for trucks.

Talking about people I think no one will spend 138 CHF for a return ticket Mendrisio - Zürich. That's a crazy price!


----------



## Fabri88

Verso said:


> When I first drove through it in the summer of 2000, I didn't even know it was the longest road tunnel in the world.


And the hottest (38°C) too!!!:lol:


----------



## Coccodrillo

Fabri88 said:


> The ideal thing to do is to build up a good rail line connecting Busto Arsizio - Gallarate - Varese and then to Mendrisio.


It is under construction, but nimbys and environmentalists will prevent its use by freight trains, even if that line would be very useful to access Busto intermodal terminal (in alternative to the single track Luino line).

By the way Mendrisio-Zürich return is 130 CHF full fare, 65 CHF half fare (and every Swiss who make more than two trip a year use uses this latter tariff).


----------



## rower2000

Coccodrillo said:


> By the way Mendrisio-Zürich return is 130 CHF full fare, 65 CHF half fare (and every Swiss who make more than two trip a year use uses this latter tariff).


The problems with rail prices is also scaling. If you're a family of four, the trip Mendrisio-Zürich will cost you 4x65 CHF = 260 CHF.

The same trip (444 km) will cost you about 65 CHF in fuel for your car. I'm refusing now to include stuff like insurance, taxes and depreciation into the cost as only people who already have a car will consider the alternative. The added cost to the family budget will consequently come down to the fuel cost plus some added wear of the car. And it will cost you that amount of money irrespective of the number of people you take, thus for car-owners, as soon as two or more people are going, the car gets you there cheaper.

Furthermore, the train is only an alternative on stretches with good connections, e.g., from Zurich to Lugano or from St. Gallen to Bern. If you now want to go from, let's say, Dübendorf to Heerbrugg, the S-Bahn trains and connections will cost you a lot of time. And delays on any segment will screw up the whole journey.

So on well-connected lines, I would always take the train, but the rail system is not the answer to every mobility demand - it simply cannot be as it only connects points and never can give system access to a whole stretch in the way a road can. Which is an inherent property of railways.


----------



## Coccodrillo

rower2000 said:


> The problems with rail prices is also scaling. If you're a family of four, the trip Mendrisio-Zürich will cost you 4x65 CHF = 260 CHF.


No, because children up to 16 years don't pay when they travel with their parents or grand-parents (beside a pass which costs 20 CHF a year), so this family would pay 130 CHF.

However the price is not a problem (now), as since 2004 rail traffic rose by ~35% in passengers*km, so now the problem usually is not to attract passengers, but transport them as on many lines they are just too many.


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## ChrisZwolle

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/Neue-Autobahn-soll-A1-entlasten-27388739

They want to build a new motorway parallel to a part of A1 in northern Zürich, mostly underground. 










I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do though, sounds like a lot of money for just 6 kilometer of new motorway basically only 1 - 2 km from the existing motorway. I think the two-lane connectors and that weird split near Wallisellen are the main cause of congestion. There are some 2x4 sections between interchanges but it doesn't really add that much capacity, it just smoothes weaving. 

I'm wondering if a Baden - Winterthur motorway (further north) isn't a better idea. That way you can bypass the Zürich area completely.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm wondering if a Baden - Winterthur motorway (further north) isn't a better idea. That way you can bypass the Zürich area completely.


I think that's a good idea. It would also ease access to the airport for people coming from the east or west. I guess the NIMBYies would block a new 30-35 kilometer motorway, no matter how needed or sensible it may be.


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## Road_UK

This is what I don't like about this forum: people living far away, who may not even have been in a particular area, but for sure not commuting there on a daily basis, commenting about proposals, and already having a go at so called nimby's, and commenting on the bad or good aspects. I'm sure that local planners and the local population will have a better view on this then people living hundreds of miles away in an entire different country. Even the ones that would oppose such a project, for its not up to any of us outsiders who have no business in that area, to judge what would be best for a particular district. If any of us would drive there, we would be guests only, and not in a position to judge. Let the Swiss on here comment on this, and let us outsiders ask questions out of interest.


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> This is what I don't like about this forum: people living far away, who may not even have been in a particular area, but for sure not commuting there on a daily basis, commenting about proposals, and already having a go at so called nimby's, and commenting on the bad or good aspects. I'm sure that local planners and the local population will have a better view on this then people living hundreds of miles away in an entire different country. Even the ones that would oppose such a project, for its not up to any of us outsiders who have no business in that area, to judge what would be best for a particular district. If any of us would drive there, we would be guests only, and not in a position to judge. Let the Swiss on here comment on this, and let us outsiders ask questions out of interest.


This is a forum. You might wanna look up the definition of this word. Besides, locals may express their opinions as well.


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## Road_UK

My home language is English, I know what a forum is.


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## ChrisZwolle

If you have any problems with people discussing plans, you're better off without an internet forum.


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## Road_UK

This is not the only forum I'm using, I'm just having a problem with people who can look and judge from a thousand miles away, and already comment on nimbys who haven't shown their face yet. Got a lot of people around me agreeing with me right now. Bunch of Austrians, Brits and German, one of them is an architect. One with diplomas.


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> Got a lot of people around me agreeing with me right now. Bunch of Austrians, Brits and German, one of them is an architect. One with diplomas.


I say hi.


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## Road_UK

One says hi back in Slovenian.


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## Verso

Must be a Kärntner.


----------



## Coccodrillo

mcarling said:


> I think that's a good idea. It would also ease access to the airport for people coming from the east or west. I guess the NIMBYies would block a new 30-35 kilometer motorway, no matter how needed or sensible it may be.


You will rarely see nimbys protesting in Switzerland (except against nuclear power plants), however appeals in tribunal against public work are common (but don't last too much if a project is approved by voters).


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## Road_UK

Verso said:


> Must be a Kärntner.


English, involved in some seminar to be organised in Slovenia in October.


----------



## Vaud

The project does make a lot of sense to me, notice the new route would connect the A1 going to Baden with the A1 going to Winterthur, leaving the existing part for people who go to and from Zurich via the Hardbrücke and Milchbucktunnel and also giving vehicles from Winterthur and Baden the alternative of going to the airport without mixing with the traffic going to Zurich, and it's the shortest and therefore least expensive way of doing all that. 

In fact the Zurich government has agreed to the proposal.


----------



## Fabri88

ChrisZwolle said:


> If you have any problems with people discussing plans, you're better off without an internet forum.


Exactly!

SSC serves to widen our horizons.


----------



## F81

Any plans for A4 completion from Scwyz to Altdorf?


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## Coccodrillo

Yes, but partly and as an Autostrasse (one lane per direction and without shoulders) as it will run mainly underground. A first tunnel avoiding Sisikon will open in 2017, a second tunnel linking it with the A4 near Brunnen/Schwyz will open in 2025 (replacing the existing Mositunnel, which will be downgraded to local road). A 3 km gap will remain in place, there are plans to build a fourth tunnel there to fill that gap but there is no financing yet (the other tunnel of the new Axenstrasse is the existing Flüelen tunnel). If all built they would form a chain of 4 separate tunnels totalling 12 km, with only short open sections between them.

Below you can find more details:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=59516713#post59516713

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=49190959#post49190959


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## Coccodrillo

A likely undersized project for Bern (maybe before 2030):


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## Verso

^^ What's the point of that? To move the motorway away from the city, or to straighten it up perhaps? I think the whole eastern bypass should be widened to 6 lanes, it's jammed every rush hour.


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## Coccodrillo

I thought it was intended to in crease capacity, but if the motorway remains 2x2...

**************************

I have found this website about historic transport infrastructures. It is partly trilingual and partly monolingual (according to the canton).

http://www.ivs.admin.ch/


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## ChrisZwolle

Opening of A1 Bern - Kriegstetten on 10-05-1962.


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## Verso

^^ When did they add central reservation and fence?


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## ChrisZwolle

Another photo of A1 near Oensingen in 1970.










Here's a list of militairy aircraft take-offs and landings on Swiss Autobahnen:

http://www.lw.admin.ch/internet/luftwaffe/de/home/themen/history/kriegkalt/autobahn.html


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## ChrisZwolle

It took me 2.5 hours of research, but I managed to find nearly all exact opening dates of the A1. It would be nearly impossible to have found all these dates if it wasn't for the internet.


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## ChrisZwolle

A6/A8 interchange in 1968:


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## Verso

^^ Same as today.


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## ChrisZwolle

A2 Luzern - Horw, the first "Autobahn" of Switzerland. It opened 11 June 1955.

Later motorways were designed with more modern standards.


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## hofburg

any plans to widen this bottleneck?

https://maps.google.fr/maps?saddr=A...FVbt0QIdHCd3AA&mra=me&mrsp=1,0&sz=10&t=m&z=10


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## Verso

^^ It's not really a bottleneck yet, although I agree with its widening.


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## Coccodrillo

Works are going on to widen it to 2x3.


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## ChrisZwolle

There are 91.000 vehicles per day on that stretch.


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## Verso

^^ I know, but I was never in a traffic jam there and I drove there dozens of times.


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## earthJoker

Nordic20T said:


> ^^
> The exit is also rebuilt an in service already. If you go to Ostermundigen, you don't need to cross Wankdorfplatz anymore. For going to BEA or the city-center, all remains the same as it was before.


Actually you drive to the BEA (car parking) through the Bolligerstasse not the Papiermühlestrasse. You don't have to drive over the Wankdorfsplatz anymore to get to the BEA. Well to bad it wasn't finished when we went to the fair there, and I won't be there before 2014.


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## Nordic20T

Here are some pics of the Wankdorf roundabout. I was coming from Worblaufen and was driving to Bolligen. Map (shows not the correct route, Google isn't updated yet)

Turning into Papiermühlestrasse









Approaching the roundabout


















Left lane goes to Bolligen, Ostermundigen. The right lane allows you to turn right to Nordring heading to the railway station and the city center. 









The roundabout









Exiting the roundabout









Continuing to Bolligen/Ostermundigen


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## Verso

Cool roundabout.


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## Nordic20T

It looks "cool", but since many people have no idea how to drive in a two-lane roundabout, its pretty dangerous.


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## ChrisZwolle

Was this the former transit route through Zürich before the motorway around the city opened to traffic in 2009?


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## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> Was this the former transit route through Zürich before the motorway around the city opened to traffic in 2009?


Yes. I had to go through the city many times (route Geneva to Schaffhausen)


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## ChrisZwolle

Are you sure? Genève - Schaffhausen could be done by motorway since 1985.


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## Road_UK

Which route?


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## ChrisZwolle

A1/A4 along the northern side of Zürich was completed by 1985. A3/A4 along the western and southern side was completed in 2009. 

The transit route through the city until 2009 was for traffic from Basel to Chur or Schaffhausen to Luzern.


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## Coccodrillo

If you don't have anything to do these days...

Beschränkung der Fahrspuren am Gotthard soll gesetzlich verankert werden
http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentation/00109/00113/00491/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=47286

La limitation du nombre de voies de circulation au Gothard sera ancrée dans la loi
http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentation/00109/00113/00491/index.html?lang=fr&msg-id=47286

Gottardo: le corsie di marcia siano limitate per legge
http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentation/00109/00113/00491/index.html?lang=it&msg-id=47286

...here there are more details about the procedures going on for the proposed second tunnel.

Briefly:
1) the law would be modified to forbid more than one lane per direction
2) the Blockabfertigung would remain in place (at least for trucks)
3) there will be no toll to use and finance the second tube (beside the existing vignette), and the truck toll for Basel-Chiasso cannot be higher than 325 CHF/270 EUR because of the EU*
4) if the parliament approves this law opponents will be able to collect signatures and start a referendum (which is nearly inevitable), which may be held between the end of 2014 and the beginning of 2015

*which is lower than the toll for the Mont Blanc tunnel alone, without the A40 and A5, but apparently the EU is happy about that and doesn't complain...


----------



## Corvinus

Coccodrillo said:


> Beschränkung der Fahrspuren am Gotthard soll gesetzlich verankert werden
> http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentation/00109/00113/00491/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=47286


The article says 50% of gasoline tax is used for funding of national roads. Where do the remaining 50% go?


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## Coccodrillo

To the general budget of the state. Remember that it's a tax, not a toll, so it's normal that it goes elsewhere, and not only to those who paid it.


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## ChrisZwolle

Note that the fuel tax in Switzerland is actually lower than the fuel tax supplement. It's a better situation than the Netherlands though, where only a minor fraction of the fuel tax is spent on the road network.


----------



## Suburbanist

*AADT for car shuttles in CH*

Does anyone know what is the traffic on each of the Swiss car shuttles:

- Lötschberg
- Furka
- Abula
- Vereina


----------



## Coccodrillo

By heart, in brackets the shuttle headway:

Lötschberg: 1.600.000 vehicles per year, or around 4.000/6.000 a day (every 30 minutes, every 15 at peaks)

Lötschberg-Simplon: unknown, 5 to 10 departures per direction, but only on peak holiday days (maybe ~20 spread all over the year)

Simplon: 100.000 vehicles per year, every two hours

Furka: 200.000 vehicles a year, every hour (every 30 minutes Friday to Monday)

Oberalp: unknown, 4 trains per day per direction in winter, with rarely more than 7 cars each

Albula: the service was suspended some years ago, surely not more than a train per hour (probably less)

Vereina: 400.000 vehicles per year, a train every 30 minutes (I think with some unscheduled extras at peak times, not shown on timetables)

Gotthard: suspended with the opening of the road tunnel in 1980, last run at the end of 2001 after the fire, if I remember correctly the last full year of operation it had 500.000 per year

These services carry mostly cars, motorbikes and some bicycles, and very few trucks, with a heigh limitation of around 3.80 m. I know of companies that bought or modified trucks expressly to fit this limited loading gauge. However, all these services except the Lötschberg are on local roads with limited traffic.

The Lötschberg-Simplon, Oberalp, Albula and probably the Simplon services are or were only for cars/bikes.

For trucks, there are then 10 RoRo trains transiting on the Lötschberg-Simplon railway but without commercial stops in Switzerland, and a single train pair Lugano-Basel. When the Gotthard road tunnel was closed because of the fire in 2001 some extra RoRo trains were operated between Lugano and Altdorf.


----------



## Suburbanist

So was the Albula shuttle closed? My 2013 Michelin map still shows it, and also shows that the road pass is closed November through April.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Albula pass road is always closed in winter (and used as a bob/sled track), now without replacement (beside the Julier).


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> The Albula pass road is always closed in winter (and used as a bob/sled track), now without replacement (beside the Julier).


The Albulapass is lower than the Julierpass I think... St. Moritz is a very isolated city. Some road tunnel would serve well there (I assume tunnels there are not forbidden). 

They should link Juf with the Albula pass road. I never drove to Juf, want to do someday.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> The Albulapass is lower than the Julierpass I think... St. Moritz is a very isolated city. Some road tunnel would serve well there (I assume tunnels there are not forbidden).
> 
> They should link Juf with the Albula pass road. I never drove to Juf, want to do someday.


Juf is the highest settlement in Europe.


----------



## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> Juf is the highest settlement in Europe.


Didn't know that.

I know there is a hydro power dam whose road access is unfortunately closed.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Juf area is not that spectacular compared to some other valleys. If you want a similar height valley, go to Lac de Moiry. Not crowded with tourists, but spectacular views on the glaciers and snow-capped mountains.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Some road tunnel would serve well there (I assume tunnels there are not forbidden).


Tunnels there are not forbidden, but forget them. Only the short 700 m Silvaplana bypass tunnel finally went into construction (opening in 2016).



Suburbanist said:


> I know there is a hydro power dam whose road access is unfortunately closed.


In this region I know only the one to the Val di Lei:

http://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Ferrer...ear=Ferrera,+Ausserferrera,+Grigioni&t=m&z=15

Note that the Swiss rectangle containing the dam is outside the Swiss "custom area". I remember having seen before the tunnel advices telling the limits of goods allowed through the border, even if the dam is in Switzerland and even if the few "roads" located in Italy there are not connected to the rest of the Italian network.


----------



## Suburbanist

I'm also wondering what if any modification has there been to controls near Campione d'Italia after Switzerland joined Schengen (I last visited there in 2007 I think).


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> I'm also wondering what if any modification has there been to controls near Campione d'Italia after Switzerland joined Schengen (I last visited there in 2007 I think).


No border checks ever existed between Campione and CH, nor before Schengen neither today. It has always been part of the Swiss custom area. It uses Swiss currency, post and phone services, VAT and license plates. But it has Carabinieri and Guardia di Finanza (who drive Swiss-plated cars ) and Italian laws are valid there.


----------



## italystf

Coccodrillo said:


> In this region I know only the one to the Val di Lei:
> 
> http://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Ferrera,+Ausserferrera&hl=it&ll=46.483826,9.458284&spn=0.012647,0.027595&sll=46.813187,8.22421&sspn=1.609089,3.532104&oq=Ferrera&hnear=Ferrera,+Ausserferrera,+Grigioni&t=m&z=15
> 
> Note that the Swiss rectangle containing the dam is outside the Swiss "custom area". I remember having seen before the tunnel advices telling the limits of goods allowed through the border, even if the dam is in Switzerland and even if the few "roads" located in Italy there are not connected to the rest of the Italian network.


Val di Lei is the only piece of Italian soil belonging to North Sea tributary basin. Water from rain and melting snow flow into streams that flow in the Rhine and goes all the way to Rotterdam!

There is another place in Italy accessible only via CH: Bagni di Craveggia (actually the Swiss road ends at the border and you must walk to the Italian village).


----------



## Suburbanist

I traveled to Campione just twice, one I don't remember much, the second I'm sure there were some guards waving cars through. Maybe a non-custom checkpoint?


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> I traveled to Campione just twice, one I don't remember much, the second I'm sure there were some guards waving cars through. Maybe a non-custom checkpoint?


It could be. Even before Schengen you could sail a boat from the Italian shore of Lugano lake to Campione and then walk or take a taxi into CH without passing any border checks.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ I don't know if it's legal. When I rented a boat they told me that I could not enter Italy even remaining on water because of custom reason (in Switzerland it's possible to rent small boats without a driving licence for boats, so it's maybe because of that that I could not enter Italy).


----------



## Fabri88

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ I don't know if it's legal. When I rented a boat they told me that I could not enter Italy even remaining on water because of custom reason (in Switzerland it's possible to rent small boats without a driving licence for boats, so it's maybe because of that that I could not enter Italy).


If in Switzerland you can do so then it's for that motivation you cannot enter Italy. I don't know what are the Italian limits but almost every boat need a licence to be piloted.

Talking about customs: now Switzerland is a Schengen country so you can cross the border between Switzerland and Italy with a boat too.

Obviously (as CH is Schengen only for people but not for goods) you cannot take into Italy/Switzerland goods over the legal limits.


----------



## italystf

Fabri88 said:


> If in Switzerland you can do so then it's for that motivation you cannot enter Italy. I don't know what are the Italian limits but almost every boat need a licence to be piloted.
> 
> Talking about customs: now Switzerland is a Schengen country so you can cross the border between Switzerland and Italy with a boat too.
> 
> Obviously (as CH is Schengen only for people but not for goods) you cannot take into Italy/Switzerland goods over the legal limits.


Was legal, before Schengen, to sail berween Campione and mainland Italy? There were no border checks between Campione and CH.


----------



## Coccodrillo

I doubt, because Campione was and is inside Switzerland's custom area (similar to the Kleinwalsertal in Austria, when it was inside Germany's customs union).


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Livigno is an even stranger case.


----------



## eeee.

Not at all. Livigno is accessible on Italian roads.

(Edit: ah sorry, you mean the customs status.)


----------



## marius_NE

Are there any plans to continue the A5 from Biel to La Neuveville after the completion of the (partially) underground bypass?


----------



## Coccodrillo

No, there aren't serious plans, that's why Biel-Bienne bypass in the south will have a single tunnel with one lane per direction, unlike the northern part.

A motorway ther would be expensive, and the existing road is fast enough.


----------



## marius_NE

Coccodrillo said:


> No, there aren't serious plans, that's why Biel-Bienne bypass in the south will have a single tunnel with one lane per direction, unlike the northern part.
> 
> A motorway ther would be expensive, and the existing road is fast enough.


I guess you're right, the road is fast, the problem is passing through Biel-Bienne. Thanks for the info!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've driven that road in 2010, it was not busy there. The Biel/Bienne transit route was much more time-consuming. Furthermore, due to the strip development along the La Neuveville - Biel/Bienne road, much of a new road would have to be in tunnels. 

The low traffic volumes near language borders in Switzerland are quite remarkable. One minute you're driving in loaded Bern, and then 15 minutes later it's an empty motorway near Murten.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ It would be interesting to see how traffic varies in Europe where the language border is also a state border (Liège-Maastricht-Aachen), where it is not (between the three language areas of Belgium), and where there is a state border but not a language border (Ticino-Milano, Nordtirol-Südtirol, Antwerpen-Breda).


----------



## mcarling

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ It would be interesting to see how traffic varies in Europe where the language border is also a state border (Liège-Maastricht-Aachen), where it is not (between the three language areas of Belgium), and where there is a state border but not a language border (Ticino-Milano, Nordtirol-Südtirol, Antwerpen-Breda).


Yes, this would be very interesting, but keep in mind that it will change as English becomes universally known throughout Europe.


----------



## Sunfuns

It is already close to universally known among the younger generation. In Switzerland young (30 and under) people from German speaking areas are much more likely to be fluent in English than French. I've heard that knowledge of German in French speaking areas is more poor than the other way around. Nevertheless the working language is the local one (except in large multinationals) so moving between language areas is not that easy and it mostly occurs for upper class occupations.


----------



## earthJoker

ChrisZwolle said:


> The low traffic volumes near language borders in Switzerland are quite remarkable. One minute you're driving in loaded Bern, and then 15 minutes later it's an empty motorway near Murten.


Well traffic is also split there to the A1 and A12.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ But how is English knowledge among young people not on a college-track career? Do they learn good English? Then, it can be envisioned a future where English is the language of communication between Swiss from different areas.


----------



## Coccodrillo

From my experience on trains between Bern (100% German-speaking) and Fribourg (80% FR/20% DE) there are quite a lot of French-speaking commuters, but being the capital there are many French- and Italian-speakers living and working there.



Suburbanist said:


> Then, it can be envisioned a future where English is the language of communication between Swiss from different areas.


That's a sad risk, and that's why I try to write or speak in German as much as possible instead of using English, even if it takes me more time and if it's harder. And I continue to read in German in my free time, hoping to improve my knowledge, as once finished school I didn't have occasions and need (for work) to study it.

(I speak Italian as first language and French fluently)


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Good for you!

Being able to understand the other languages of one's own country (just to be able to understand the media, for starters) seems obvious to me. Although I know it's easy for me to say that....

:cheers:


----------



## Sunfuns

Penn's Woods said:


> Being able to understand the other languages of one's own country (just to be able to understand the media, for starters) seems obvious to me. Although I know it's easy for me to say that....


Do you speak Spanish? :cheers:


----------



## cinxxx

Coccodrillo said:


> That's a sad risk, and that's why I try to write or speak in German as much as possible instead of using English, even if it takes me more time and if it's harder. And I continue to read in German in my free time, hoping to improve my knowledge, as once finished school I didn't have occasions and need (for work) to study it.
> 
> (I speak Italian as first language and French fluently)


I like your post 
Do you speak both Hochdeutsch and Schweizerdeutsch?

When I was in CH, I used High-German, but some people answered in Swiss-German, and it was really hard to understand. Sometimes I thought I would have better asked in English from the beginning, but there were also nice locals who spoke High-German back.


----------



## earthJoker

Suburbanist said:


> Then, it can be envisioned a future where English is the language of communication between Swiss from different areas.


Among people of my age (around 30) this is already often the case, especially in business.


----------



## Penn's Woods

EDIT: This is in response to Sunfuns, about four posts up-thread.

I can read it, with some effort. But one can be reasonably fully informed about public life in this country if one only understands English. 

Whereas a Swiss person who can't understand the NZZ or a Belgian who can't read de Standaard.... Or someone in a field like history who can't understand half his own country's public records and historiography... (Or the records and other sources on whatever country he's studying.)


----------



## Sunfuns

Penn's Woods said:


> I can read it, with some effort. But one can be reasonably fully informed about public life in this country if one only understands English.
> 
> Whereas a Swiss person who can't understand the NZZ or a Belgian who can't read de Standaard.... Or someone in a field like history who can't understand half his own country's public records and historiography... (Or the records and other sources on whatever country he's studying.)


It wasn't meant seriously, it's just that Americans are rarely good at this kind of thing. 

Swiss are better at languages than most, but still it's a bit too much to expect everyone being fluent in German, French and English (Italian is a minor thing unless you are from Ticino). 

I have several Belgian co-workers and none of them are fluent in Flemish.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ Italian is not studied much outside Ticino and Graubünden (all of it, even the German-speaking part) where it is mandatory but it has the same official status as the other languages, so it can be used for speeches in the parliament (there is a simultaneous translation between the three main languages) and all laws are equals in the three languages (which lead, as far I remember a long time ago and if I remember correctly, to have the Italian version of one particular law saying something a little different than the other two versions, when they had to be completely identical...).



cinxxx said:


> I like your post
> Do you speak both Hochdeutsch and Schweizerdeutsch?
> 
> When I was in CH, I used High-German, but some people answered in Swiss-German, and it was really hard to understand. Sometimes I thought I would have better asked in English from the beginning, but there were also nice locals who spoke High-German back.


I only understand (I can't say I really speak it) Hochdeutsch, as Schweizerdeutsch is completely different and not understood outside Switzerland, studying also that would be too much work...by the age of 15 I studied French, German and English at the same time, later adding Spanish to that replacing German. And I went to a scientific high school, not to a linguistic-oriented one.

(I suppose a German speaker feels strange Schweizerdeutsch as much as Dutch language...)


----------



## Penn's Woods

Sunfuns said:


> It wasn't meant seriously, it's just that Americans are rarely good at this kind of thing.


I took it seriously (you can't always tell in writing), but that's fine. And that's true. But I'm a language geek.




Sunfuns said:


> Swiss are better at languages than most, but still it's a bit too much to expect everyone being fluent in German, French and English (Italian is a minor thing unless you are from Ticino).
> 
> I have several Belgian co-workers and none of them are fluent in Flemish.


Let me tone down and clarify my point, a little. It's true that not everyone is good at languages, and that not everyone has the same priorities. But as a language geek who's rather jealous of the opportunities similarly-inclined Europeans have to get exposure to other languages (since I can remember pre-Internet days, when the only way I had to hear anything other than English spoken was to catch every European film that made it to New York or Philadelphia, listen to staticky short-wave broadcasts, or, when I could afford to, travel), I'm mystified by the oh-let's-all-just-speak-English-to-each-other attitude that seems to be taking hold there. I've seen plenty of francophone Belgians on Belgian forums saying "learning Dutch/Flemish is a waste of time" - and I assume you can find Flemings saying the same about French - which I find stunning. Yes, perhaps Dutch isn't that important in the world, but if you're living in a country the size of Maryland where the majority of the population speaks it.... If you're not good at languages and/or have other things to do, that's one thing, but to be that dismissive is, well, not nice. If I were Belgian, being able to understand the media of both major languages would seem like an obvious sort-of life skill. That doesn't mean you can't learn English as well. And to use as an excuse "I never have the chance to use [Language X]" when it's spoken 50 miles away and you could just spend a day there, maybe browse in bookstores, and its channels are available on your own TV is nonsense.

You got me going....


----------



## Tchek

Penn's Woods said:


> If I were Belgian, being able to understand the media of both major languages would seem like an obvious sort-of life skill. That doesn't mean you can't learn English as well. And to use as an excuse "I never have the chance to use [Language X]" when it's spoken 50 miles away and you could just spend a day there, maybe browse in bookstores, and its channels are available on your own TV is nonsense.
> 
> You got me going....


That's an American point of view. The US is more homogeneous and Americans are far more mobile than Europeans, and most of all Belgians.

I feel the same with Americans and the Spanish language. Very few Californians/Texans/Arizonans are fluent in Spanish yet live in states where Spanish is spoken all over the place. I used to think "that must be cool to live in a place where Spanish is spoken everywhere, why are Americans so adverse to Spanish? Why aren't they bilingual?", but to live there as a local is another story, you have to deal with cultural/social antagonism/pride and other factors.


----------



## Verso

earthJoker said:


> Well traffic is also split there to the A1 and A12.


True, but the A12 wasn't much busier when it was the only motorway between Bern and Lausanne.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Tchek said:


> That's an American point of view. The US is more homogeneous and Americans are far more mobile than Europeans, and most of all Belgians.
> 
> ....to live there as a local is another story, you have to deal with cultural/social antagonism/pride and other factors.


Interesting, given that Americans are more often criticized by Europeans for our failure to travel enough and, more generally, lack of cosmopolitanism. ;-)

-----

EDITED TO ADD: Maybe it's actually a language geek's point of view....


----------



## Alqaszar

Americans and a lack of cosmopolitanism?

A nation "e pluribus unum", consisting of all people from all the continents [insert meme here] is cosmopolitan and multicultural by definition. 'Melting pot' and so on.

All criticism against Americans -- "'Muritards*" -- can be reflected on each wealthy western society, where it is just posible to be a complete idiot and irgnorant and still make a life somehow. But that is a social and cultural discussion, and has nothing to do with a special country.

_______________________________________________________________________
*)









_That could happen anywhere._


----------



## Sunfuns

Alqaszar said:


> Americans and a lack of cosmopolitanism?
> 
> A nation "e pluribus unum", consisting of all people from all the continents [insert meme here] is cosmopolitan and multicultural by definition. 'Melting pot' and so on.


Have you lived in US? I have and I can tell you that, while some places certainly are very cosmopolitan (NYC, for example), large swaths are anything but. If you don't believe me take a couple weeks off and drive around rural Midd Western or Mountain states  

P.S. That's not meant as a criticism, just the way how things are.


----------



## OulaL

A question about the vignette, rising from the Austria-thread...

When visiting Basel (and not anywhere else in Switzerland) and arriving on a motorway from Germany or France, when must one exit the motorway to avoid paying for the vignette?


----------



## Coccodrillo

As far I know, the last exit before Switzerland.

But I'm not sure, as I always buy the vignette...(there is no point not to have a vignette if you live in Switzerland, escept if your vehicle is used only on local roads lost in the mountains, which excludes 99.9% of cars).


----------



## OulaL

Is there a warning about this when approaching the last exit in France/Germany?

After all, the price for the vignette for only one day's visit and within only 5 km of the country border feels almost like a penalty. (Sure, to those travelling further into Switzerland or for a longer time, the price is very reasonable when compared to French or Italian toll routes.)


----------



## cougar1989

If you come from Germany A5, you can see this


----------



## vatse

There is sign like this on the French A35. No special warning or anything like this but you can understand that next thing on this road would be douane (customs).
On German A5 it's probably similar showing Zoll (customs). Anyway it would be exit 69, Weil am Rhein.


----------



## OulaL

Good to know. Thanks to cougar1989 and vatse.

The sign in Germany is clear indeed. But I feel sorry to those arriving from France and not reading this thread...

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=47.575...DiPGn5sitbwZZ42lw&cbp=12,134.37,,0,-9.32&z=18

How much is it from the border line (marked with the Swiss flag sign) to the beginning of the exit ramp? 50 metres? And you still get fined if caught there without the vignette...


----------



## Road_UK

No, because you can still buy it on the border.


----------



## Verso

No, it isn't, check Google Street View.


----------



## Road_UK

OulaL said:


> This is my final try to clarify my point.
> 
> At the time you get informed about the vignette requirement and price, you cannot use a different route, since that would involve a U-turn on a motorway. I'm pretty sure that's forbidden by the French as well as the Swiss law.
> 
> EDIT: Or is it? Judging from the last messages, it actually seems possible in this very case...


I think you are able to turn around at border crossings. I use Chiasso, Basel-St Louis, Basel - Weil am Rhein and Geneva regularly. Speaking of Geneva, on the French motorway approaching the Geneva area, there is a bloody big sign saying: En Suisse vignette obligatoire. 

Either way, why would anyone drive into a country he has never been before without learning some local customs and regulations first?


----------



## OulaL

As U-turn really seems to be allowed at the border, then I guess I'll take back some of my complaining.



Road_UK said:


> Speaking of Geneva, on the French motorway approaching the Geneva area, there is a bloody big sign saying: En Suisse vignette obligatoire.


Well, that's good. And so it seems to work with Austria - I've seen warnings about their vignettes when approaching from Germany, Italy and Slovenia. (Haven't tried to enter from Slovakia or Hungary, though.)



Road_UK said:


> Either way, why would anyone drive into a country he has never been before without learning some local customs and regulations first?


Probably assuming that the most important things are explained upon arrival anyway. In such a way as speed limits actually are. And Switzerland isn't really that exotic place.

To millions of Europeans the concept of a vignette is something they've simply never heard about. To be able to learn some customs and regulations, you must first be aware that there actually is something to learn.


----------



## Verso

OulaL said:


> As U-turn really seems to be allowed at the border, then I guess I'll take back some of my complaining.


It isn't. But maybe they let you go in such a case.


----------



## OulaL

Verso said:


> It isn't. But maybe they let you go in such a case.


Can you do it like this, or is this reserved to authorised personnel?

https://maps.google.fi/maps?saddr=T...zAA&oq=huningue&t=k&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=16&z=17


----------



## vatse

OulaL said:


> Can you do it like this, or is this reserved to authorised personnel?
> 
> https://maps.google.fi/maps?saddr=T...zAA&oq=huningue&t=k&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=16&z=17


Yes, you can take this road out from customs post but you can't turn to left before truck parking. It's the entrance way to parking. Maybe you can drive through or around this parking and then back to motorway or through streets to Basel. It's the open parking before truck customs and you can drive through this when coming on streets so probably they will tell you to take this road when you explain that you don't want to go to Basel.


----------



## Verso

Eh, I'm sure they wouldn't let you do this.


----------



## Falusi

Can somebody help me, that where can I buy a Swiss vignette? (I will enter from the German A5)

Btw it would be great if we would have some kind of road toll summary.


----------



## vatse

You can buy it from the Swiss customs at the border.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You can usually also purchase it at gas stations in Germany along motorways towards Switzerland.


----------



## Nordic20T

There's even an extra lane at the border for cars which need a vignette.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> You can usually also purchase it at gas stations in Germany along motorways towards Switzerland.


Hell, you can even buy them in Belgium at services these days...


----------



## cougar1989

The last rest area at the A5.de before the border is Bad Bellingen West it is after Dreieck Neuenburg
http://www.badbellingen.de/bellingen/shop.html


----------



## Falusi

Thank you guys! kay:


----------



## Nordic20T

^^
Btw where will you go in Switzerland?


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## Falusi

83rd International Motor Show in Geneva.


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## Corvinus

Falusi said:


> 83rd International Motor Show in Geneva.


Sounds legit :lol:
Will go there using my (employer-issued) train GA this year ...


----------



## Falusi

I will take pics to proove it if you don't believe me, I will be there on 15 March. 
I suppose that waiting times on the border at Basel (A5/A2) and at Geneva (A1/A41) arent long, right?
(We have a reserved room in La Roche-sur-Foron, France. There is some kind of partnership between this town and Taksony, where I live)


----------



## OulaL

Falusi said:


> I suppose that waiting times on the border at Basel (A5/A2) and at Geneva (A1/A41) arent long, right?


As Switzerland is a member of the Schengen Agreement, there shouldn't be any waiting at all. On the first entry you'll need to stop to buy the vignette, if you don't have one already, though.


----------



## bogdymol

Falusi said:


> 83rd International Motor Show in Geneva.


:rant:

Before I went on my trip to Austrian Alps for skiing I took a look at the Geneva Motor Show and I noticed that I missed it by one week. If my skiing vacantion would have been in the same time as the Motor Show I would have definately go there.


----------



## Nordic20T

Swiss "Autobahnvignette" will cost CHF 100.-- after 2015. A 2 month vignette for tourists will be available for CHF 40.-- 
Source


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## ChrisZwolle

40 CHF for an annual vignette was a joke anyway. Good thing they kept a short-term vignette though. 

I still think a vignette is pretty much symbolic policy. The annual revenue is not that great (raising the fuel tax by a few rappen would create the same revenue). I think it's chiefly to appease critics that foreign motorists don't pay for using the roads. 

The annual revenue from the vignettes is only about € 230 million, which is quite small compared to other sources of income from motorists (chiefly fuel taxes).


----------



## mariusvonbucovina

OulaL said:


> As Switzerland is a member of the Schengen Agreement, there shouldn't be any waiting at all.



Yes, Switzerland is a Schengen-agreement member state, but they are not in EU. This means free movement of persons, but not free movement of goods.

So, they use the reason to check the trunks to also check the documents. And if you have a suspect (in their eyes) licence plate, they will for sure stop and check everything.
On major routes, you might spend some time at check points. If you have local knowledge, on local routes there's no checking, they even dismantled the booths.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> 40 CHF for an annual vignette was a joke anyway. Good thing they kept a short-term vignette though.
> 
> I still think a vignette is pretty much symbolic policy. The annual revenue is not that great (raising the fuel tax by a few rappen would create the same revenue). I think it's chiefly to appease critics that foreign motorists don't pay for using the roads.
> 
> The annual revenue from the vignettes is only about € 230 million, which is quite small compared to other sources of income from motorists (chiefly fuel taxes).


In Austria, all monies taken is used by ASFINAG for the maintenance of their motorways...


----------



## Nordic20T

mariusvonbucovina said:


> And if you have a suspect (in their eyes) licence plate, they will for sure stop and check everything.


They will not check anyone just for fun or as a chicanery. That's not the way our authorities work.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Road_UK said:


> In Austria, all monies taken is used by ASFINAG for the maintenance of their motorways...


Yes, but the bulk of the Austrian motorways were completed before the vignette era (which started in 1997). There is no way they could have financed the current network with vignettes as it exists today. 

The same goes for Switzerland. Considering they have some expensive projects (A9 & A16) they need more income if other sources are not politically feasible, so the Swiss raising the vignette price is understandable. 

Additionally, Switzerland could spend some more money on motorway maintenance. There are quite a few stretches with poor concrete pavement quality which generates an uncomfortable ride, plus a lot of road noise (usually a hot issue in local politics).


----------



## rower2000

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes, but the bulk of the Austrian motorways were completed before the vignette era (which started in 1997). There is no way they could have financed the current network with vignettes as it exists today.


In the end it's supposed to be. The whole Asfinag story started in 1982, when the government tried to get rid of some public debt (as it's often done with governments only on paper of course). So they founded Asfinag, gave a federal warranty for credits taken up by Asfinag, and paid for the building of the motorway system with Asfinag money - this of course never showed up on the federal debt sheets (Asfinag received some money from the mineral oil tax until about 1990). In 1997, Asfinag was morphed into a quasi-private enterprise and is now supposed to pay back its debts from vignette and truck toll income until 2040 - of course including the debt incurred between 1984 and 1997, when they didn't have any income. If those repayments weren't there, they would operate at about 300M EUR profit and could build much faster and much more!


----------



## Road_UK

So, technically ASFINAG is a company in depth?


----------



## cinxxx

^^debt?


----------



## city_thing

mariusvonbucovina said:


> Yes, Switzerland is a Schengen-agreement member state, but they are not in EU. This means free movement of persons, but not free movement of goods.
> 
> So, they use the reason to check the trunks to also check the documents. And if you have a suspect (in their eyes) licence plate, they will for sure stop and check everything.
> On major routes, you might spend some time at check points. If you have local knowledge, on local routes there's no checking, they even dismantled the booths.


I caught the train from Zurich to Munich when I was there in 2006 (beautiful part of the world by the way, you Swiss are very lucky) and I remember customs officials boarding the train and checking our passports. One guy who was dressed like a hippy was searched by the police too. Is that common?


----------



## mariusvonbucovina

city_thing said:


> I caught the train from Zurich to Munich when I was there in 2006 (beautiful part of the world by the way, you Swiss are very lucky) and I remember customs officials boarding the train and checking our passports. One guy who was dressed like a hippy was searched by the police too. Is that common?


Switzerland joined Schengen area in December 2008 only.


----------



## Coccodrillo

A video made by local NIMBYs (including some municipalities) complaining to the proposed Morges bypass on the A1. The dotted parts would be in tunnel, around 7 km out of 14. These tunnels would be under fields away from buildings.

61085411

http://www.24heures.ch/vaud-regions...nement-fche-Lonay-et-Bremblens/story/21525546

***************

Only two sections of new motorway will open this year, in Autumn: one on the A16, and the Serrières tunnel on the A5 near Neuchâtel, each no more than 4 km long.

*edit:*

a press release: http://www.astra.admin.ch/autobahnschweiz/01361/03278/04917/index.html?lang=fr (only in French)

a drawing: http://www.astra.admin.ch/php/modul...n4Z2qZpnO2Yuq2Z6gpJCDfYJ2hGym162bpYbqjKaypeg- (the chosen variant is the third, dotted parts are in tunnel)


----------



## rower2000

Coccodrillo said:


> A video made by local NIMBYs (including some municipalities) complaining to the proposed Morges bypass on the A1. The dotted parts would be in tunnel, around 7 km out of 14. These tunnels would be under fields away from buildings.


Did I get this right, they do not want the bypass and additionally they want to remove two lanes of A1 through Morges??????? Not even NIMBYs can be THAT ridiculous, can they?


----------



## Coccodrillo

From http://www.autoroutedemorges.ch/une-solution-du-passe/nos-propositions

* complete an interchange, I suppose n.16
* reduce max speed to reduce conegstion and pollution
* improve public transport, car sharing and slow transports (walking and cycling)
* more flexible work tiems, and working from home via computer


----------



## Energy2003

Nordic20T said:


> They will not check anyone just for fun or as a chicanery. That's not the way our authorities work.



but at the moment the controls are getting more to keep the shopping traffic and importing of goods unter control.

Thanks to the strong Franken


----------



## rheintram

According to a newspaper report I read the EU is asking Switzerland to implement short term vignette options (e.g. one week/month).


----------



## Coccodrillo

A 2 month vignette for 40 CHF is apparently confirmed together with the increase from 40 to 100 CHF for the yearly one.


----------



## Coccodrillo

A traffic light with a diagonal arrow, the only one I know showing such direction (usually they shown left, left and straight, straight, straight and right, right, and very rarely left, straight and right).










It is the red dot below, and intended to tell that on the lane below the traffic light one can only turn left, but not on the first road because it's one-way.










On Google Maps: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Lugan....011669,0.01929&t=k&hnear=Lugano,+Ticino&z=19

Edit: I have found the opening date for A2 Chiasso-Mendrisio: 22 December 1966.


----------



## earthJoker

I think there are more arrows like that.

Here a diagonal in Winterthur that also has a bottom-left arrow:
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=47.4...=Rl5zHn3nGn206iETfA5S-w&cbp=12,90.68,,1,-0.85


----------



## eeee.

I could find 100 of those in Zurich. They are everywhere.

http://maps.google.ch/maps?hl=de&ll=47.366516,8.545357&spn=0.000015,0.012617&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=47.366619,8.545588&panoid=gnJePg9l3Qnb4_c2IZgA8w&cbp=12,71.06,,1,1.71


----------



## Coccodrillo

I have rarely seen them elsewhere - but maybe it's just because I mostly travel by public transport thus without looking at traffic signals.


----------



## g.spinoza

I'm planning a roadtrip Milan-Zurich for the next 1st May. I've some questions:

- which route is faster from Altdorf on? A2 (longer but all on motorways) or A4 (shorter but partly on normal roads)?
- should I expect queues at St. Gotthard tunnel, considering that 1st May is a holiday both in Italy and Switzerland?

Thanks!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

TCS expects normal traffic on May 1.


----------



## eeee.

A4 is faster.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*995 million CHF for motorway widenings*

The Bundesrat has approved financing of 995 million CHF to widen three key stretches of motorway in Switzerland.

The largest project is the widening of A1 between Luterbach (A5) and Härkingen (A2), which is currently one of the busiest 4-lane motorways in Switzerland with 85 000 vehicles per day.

Another large project is the twinning of A4 between Andelfingen and A1 near Winterthur to 4 lanes. 

The third and smallest project is the widening of A1 near the airport of Genève. Details of this project are unclear to me, because 50 million CHF doesn't buy a whole lot of new lanes.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> The largest project is the widening of A1 between Luterbach (A5) and Härkingen (A2)


What about Härkingen-Wiggertal (A1/A2)?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That is already under construction. It should be completed next year.


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> The third and smallest project is the widening of A1 near the airport of Genève. Details of this project are unclear to me, because 50 million CHF doesn't buy a whole lot of new lanes.


Maybe they mean just widenings between some interchanges. Part of A1 near airport is already 3+2 and space is really limited there.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Verso said:


> What about Härkingen-Wiggertal (A1/A2)?


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I like the far extents the Swiss and Germans go to not reduce lane count during roadworks, something that is much more rare in Spain and, to an extent, Italy.


----------



## Verso

It's interesting that the motorway section Härkingen-Oensingen is busier than Härkingen-Rothrist (not as busy as Rothrist-Wiggertal though). Apparently more people coming from Basel turn towards Bern than Luzern, which shows again that local traffic is usually heavier than transit traffic.

EDIT: apparently data show the section Oensingen-Niederbipp, not Härkingen-Oensingen


----------



## Nordic20T

Verso said:


> Apparently more people coming from Basel turn towards Bern than Luzern, which shows again that local traffic is usually heavier than transit traffic.


Many French drive through Switzerland from Alsace to the Geneva area, so in this direction there's also a lot of transit traffic.


----------



## Verso

Nordic20T said:


> Many French drive through Switzerland from Alsace to the Geneva area, so in this direction there's also a lot of transit traffic.


I've never thought of that actually, because Geneva is in Switzerland, so I don't really think of transit. Actually, if we talk about transit as excluding Switzerland, then the A1 itself (unlike A2) isn't particularly transit (France to Austria), but it's without doubt the main Swiss artery.


----------



## Nordic20T

^^
Sorry, I wrote it wrong/bad. They actually _leave_ Switzerland again and go to France (to the area near Geneva).


----------



## Verso

Oh ok, that makes sense as well.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Transit traffic is usually overestimated. Like those people complaining about speeders in their street, they usually turn out to be nearby residents.


----------



## earthJoker

People in my town (Pfäffikon) are always arguing that the closing of the gap of the A53 would reduce traffic here. But the specialists say it won't, or only by a few percent. Locals totally overestimate the transit here.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Do you know what they planned here at Effretikon? There is a half stack interchange with A1 that soon narrows to a regular two-lane road.


----------



## Verso

Or here.


----------



## keber

Second one looks like a possible beginning of A53. First one looks like a planned motorway to merge with A53 south of Wetzikon or at east end of Obersee.


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## Suburbanist

HAve they decided what to do in regard of renovation works of the San Gottardo tunnel? I remember reading of some ideas like keeping the Passo S. Gottardo opened year-round (except on days of very bad snow) for 3 consecutive winters while they close the tunnel for renovations.

I was carefully looking into the topography of that mountain pass, it doesn't look it would be that difficult, though there are 2 or 3 points where the avalanche risk would require the building of some artificial protection (those semi-tunnels that protect the roadway)


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## Verso

eeee. said:


> (And in which of all those countries where was no referendum men still wouldn't allow their women to vote? oke: )


In the West? Probably none.


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## Coccodrillo

MichiH said:


> Never heard about that. Is there any detailed information, e.g. a comparison with old and new numbering?


Around 400 km of roads (mostly but not necessarily motorways or autostrassen) will be handed over by the cantons to the confederation, and will thus get a new Nxx/Axx number (on official documents all are designated with an N, on everyday life 1st and 2nd class roads are called A).

Here a list: http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/gg/pc/documents/2262/Netzbeschluss_2012-12-10_de.pdf

For each setion is shown its class:

1st: motorway
2nd: autostrasse (like the A13 San Bernardino)
3rd: normal road (with flat junctions, but the fewest of them as reasonnable)

Note that each national road can be of different classes on different parts, but that only the 1st and 2nd levels will have a number in a red diamond.

Note also that the N2/A2 between Altdorf and Göschenen is 2nd class (as it is the Gotthard tunnel, obviously), and that the Gotthard pass road is also part of the N2 (as 3rd class), so between Göschenen and Airolo there are two roads called N2, the pass and the tunnel.

The list of all numbered roads (only for administrative purposes, no sign carries numbers above 30) can be found here:
http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/gg/pc/documents/2262/Durchgangsstrassenverordnung_Entwurf_de.pdf (available also in French and Italian, search for it in the links below)

More details:
Verordnungsänderungen im Rahmen der Anpassung des Bundesbeschlusses über das Nationalstrassennetz und zu deren Finanzierung
http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/gg/pc/pendent.html#UVEK
Modifications d’ordonnance dans le cadre de l’adaptation de l’arrêté fédéral sur le réseau des routes nationales et son financement
http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/gg/pc/pendent.html#DETEC
Modifiche di ordinanza relative all’adeguamento del decreto federale concernente la rete delle strade nazionali e al suo finanziamento
http://www.admin.ch/ch/i/gg/pc/pendent.html#DATEC



Suburbanist said:


> Have they decided what to do in regard of renovation works of the San Gottardo tunnel?


Most of the federal council want second tunnel (the left parties oppose it), and I'm not aware of any alternative plan if the second tunnel is rejected by voters (he referendum will likely next year). I really don't know if voters will approve or reject it, but it's sure that it is the last chance to double it before 2050. I think the opponents will prevail by a few points at the referendum, but who knows? What is sure is that Socialist, Green and Green Liberal parties voters (around one third of the electorate) will massively vote against the second tunnel, but also many citizens usually following the other political parties might not follow the ideas of their parties for one time. Partly because for example Swiss-French don't need this tunnel so they might choose to keep its money for other projects (maybe in the Romandie), partly because everyone knows that the EU will soon ask for a 2+2 tunnel, so that the referendum will also be a decision in favour or against the Alpen-Initiative, and thus the rail transport. And as Swiss citizens rarely oppose rail projects, they might oppose the road tunnel for that reason. But really...who knows? Some surveys says that the second tunnel would be approved, but people can still change their mind when they have to write "yes" or "no" on the paper, the day of the referendum.

If the second tunnel is rejected, the tunnel would be closed during the winter, with the pass road kept open as much as possible and two separate RoLa/RoRo train services, on the old rail tunnel for cars and motorbikes and in the new rail tunnel for the trucks. I don't know where buses would go.


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## Coccodrillo

Yesterday the holiday traffic has been quite high.

By road, 15 km and 2 to 3 hours to cross the Gotthard (also because the pass is still closed), 1.5 hours to cross the San Bernardino.

By rail, 2 or 3 trains left Ticino every hour full of tourists and weekly commuters (some with standing passengers), each with between 9 and 14 coaches. However, only one out of five of these trains came from Italy, from where most tourists go by car or airplane as international train service sucks.

On Thursday the Gotthard queue was 10 km southbound.


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## Road_UK

Southbound? I thought they were all going home...


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## Corvinus

A2 stretch from junction A4/A2 at Emmen near Lucerne to exit Sursee (at Lake Sempach), 19km
May 2013

1. _Arriving on A4 from Zurich, branching onto A2_









2. _100km/h limit for some km's in force_









3.









4. _Regained 120km/h ...._









5.









6.









7.









8.









9. Lake Sempach visible on the left, right above the median guard rail









10.









11. _Exiting here for Sursee_


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## Coccodrillo

Today between 10h and 14h the A13 has been closed because of snow (more than 20 cm). San Bernardino pass road remains closed.




























Source: http://www.cdt.ch/ticino-e-regioni/cronaca/84023/guarda-la-neve-a-san-bernardino.html


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## Suburbanist

Do you have some website/link for a historical table of opening and closing dates of Swiss road passes - or at least the major ones -? I find that information incredible difficult to find. 

I managed to find some data for the old railway pass opening/close on the Furkapaß rail link pre-base tunnel, but not on the road passes there or elsewhere.


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## Coccodrillo

No I don't. I only remember a few remarkable events, like the closure of the Novena/Nufenen pass a few years ago in July because of a snowfall, or when in 2001 it has been possible to keep the Gotthard pass opened until December (when the tunnel reopened after the fire).

Generally speaking, the closure of a pass is not dictated by its height or by the snowfalls, but by the danger of avalanches and the cost-benefit ratio of keeping it open (for instance it is not worth keeping open a pass if there is a road tunnel or a train shuttle below it).


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## Suburbanist

When I last traveled the Grimsel route, I noticed they have some disused avalanche sheds on what was likely the old route before they widened it in the 1960s. I walked to one of those and noticed no signs of it having been used in many years (like pavement with overgrown weeds).

I thin they probably used to keep that pass opened well into the winter before the Gotthard road tunnel opened in 1980. It would still provide a decent Bern-Ticino connection since almost all of the route is up to modern standards (wide enough at least). It would be nice if they kept the Grimsel and Neufen routes opened year-round.


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## Corvinus

Some off-motorway driving: national road 25 from Lenzburg (AG) to Muri (AG)
May 2013

1.









2.









3.









4. "_You are not blocked in the traffic. _You_ are the traffic. _" 









5.









6.









7.









8.


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## OulaL

Coccodrillo said:


> Today between 10h and 14h the A13 has been closed because of snow (more than 20 cm). San Bernardino pass road remains closed.


Is this typical in this time of the year? I understand the pass road being closed in May, but A13 too?

I've been planning to drive to south next week and have been concidering San Bernardino as one possible route, but perhaps I should think once more. If San Bernardino is closed, how does it affect the traffic at Gotthard? Maybe I'd even go via Geneva...


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## Road_UK

You'll be ok next week. There is a cold spell going on in the Alps at the moment. In Mayrhofen they're expecting snow on Friday from 600 metres upwards, but we'll be back on spring mode after the weekend.


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## Coccodrillo

OulaL said:


> Is this typical in this time of the year? I understand the pass road being closed in May, but A13 too?


I would say that a snowfall in May is not so strange, however local newspapers said that the A13 has been closed because most vehicles (especially trucks) were no more equipped for winter, and anyway the closure lasted for only 4 hours.


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## Coccodrillo

The missing link of the A4 between the current terminus and the A2 will be built...at least partially and as an Autostrasse (1+1). Today AADT is 13.000.

The project evolved, from a single tunnel around 8 km long to two of 2.9 and 4.4 km, from a system with a separate safety tunnel to single bores with an escape route under the carriageway, from a construction in two phases (with the Sisikoner tunnel opening in 2017 and the Morschacher tunnel in 2022) to an opening of the complete route around 2024 (with a few months of difference between the two tunnels). The fourth of the Axen tunnels has been postponed indefinitely (between the Sisikoner and Flüeler tunnels). Construction will be carried from an intermediate access adit for the Sisikoner tunnel and likely from the northern portal for the Morschacher tunnel. Note that the Flüeler tunnel has a separate safety tunnel, but this has been built a few years later than the main tunnel.

The cost is 740 million CHF (600 million EUR).

The old Axenstrasse will be retained and given to the two cantons involved, together with the Mositunnel bypassing Brunnen (as far I know, the first road tunnel in Switzerland longer than 1 km, opened in the 50s or 60s). This means that there will be three roads to bypass Brunnen to go along the Axen mountain range: traversing the town, using the Mosi tunnel or using the Autostrasse.

This area is full of tunnels, beside the old and new roads there are also those of the Gotthard railway (the longest: 1.3+2.7+3.3 km) and the planned extension of the Gotthard base tunnel to 75 km.










Project website: http://www.axen.ch/

SRG SSR in German: http://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/die-axenstrasse-wird-zur-grossbaustelle

SRG SSR in Italian: http://la1.rsi.ch/home/networks/la1...80cfe92&date=25.05.2013&stream=low#tabEdition


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## Coccodrillo

Apparently according to Swiss laws or regulations (I don't know if they are mandatory), road tunnels longer than 5 km must have two tubes. That's why the tunnel planned in one of the variants for the A13 missing link has two tubes with one lane each, and probably one of the reasons that led to two tunnels separated by 200 m in the open air for the new Axenstrasse.

********************

The artificial tunnel part of the Poya bridge in Fribourg-Freiburg:


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## rower2000

Coccodrillo said:


> Apparently according to Swiss laws or regulations (I don't know if they are mandatory), road tunnels longer than 5 km must have two tubes.


They also (partly) adopted the EU regulation about road tunnels requiring emergency exits in tunnels (the EU regulation says more than 1 km). This can be accomplished by double traffic tubes or a parallel emergency tunnel. Two one-lane tubes are of course safer than a two way tunnel with emergency tunnel as there will be no frontal collisions.


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## Coccodrillo

> Two one-lane tubes are of course safer than a two way tunnel with emergency tunnel as there will be no frontal collisions.


But it is also more expensive, I heard at least by 30%. Enough to make some projects unviable.

The are few examples of two single lane double tube tunnels: the planned second Tenda tunnel, the Airside Road Tunnel at Heathrow airport, and the combined tramway-bus tunnel in Seattle (the latter two closed to general traffic). Finally there will be the Fréjus tunnel, although it may end being a 2+1, two tubes tunnel. Are there others?


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## Coccodrillo

The Pass has been reopened today  









































































Source: http://www.cdt.ch/ticino-e-regioni/cronaca/84613/san-gottardo-ecco-il-passo-riaperto.html


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## lukaszek89

cool :yes:


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## Suburbanist

Is the Passo Novena opened as well?


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## Coccodrillo

No it isn't.


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## ChrisZwolle

There is a huge amount of precipitation in the central Alps this weekend, especially the Nordseite with 100 - 150 mm of rain (snow at elevations over 2000 m) which means some passes will remain closed for a while.


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## Road_UK

Weather's been horrible anywhere in the Alps. Sunshine starts at Lake Garda.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Better be, tomorrow I'm going there for a hiking-gastronomy happening in Tremosine


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## Road_UK

Hope you have a great time, and don't trott on any Tyrolians escaping the bad weather here. I'm sure there are a few of those around, most of Innsbruck are usually down there in the summer.


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## Tom 958

Coccodrillo said:


> The artificial tunnel part of the Poya bridge in Fribourg-Freiburg:


I'm glad I found this on Google Maps-- it's pretty epic (is that to be an underground intersection?). Check it out: http://goo.gl/maps/IvQxm . Be sure to pan eastward the the project's other end, too.

:cheers:


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## Verso

That looks pretty cool indeed. I assume they don't want transit traffic by the cathedral any more?


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## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is a huge amount of precipitation in the central Alps this weekend, especially the Nordseite with 100 - 150 mm of rain (snow at elevations over 2000 m) which means some passes will remain closed for a while.


The Gotthard pass has been closed again yesterday because of snow. By the way, 5 km/1 hour queue northbound yesterday at 22.30.



Verso said:


> That looks pretty cool indeed. I assume they don't want transit traffic by the cathedral any more?


I think the road near the Cathedral will be completely closed to private traffic (and reserved to pedestrians, buses and emergency vehicles). The new bridge and partially the tunnel will have four lanes, 2+1 for the road and one for bikes and pedestrians.

And yes, there will be an underground roundabout, but just under the surface: nothing like the undersea junctions the Norwegians like so much!

edit: a video: http://www.fr.ch/poya/fr/pub/film.htm (clic on _Le film du projet Poya_, 150 MB)

*************

Did I linked the variants for the A13 missing link before?

http://www4.ti.ch/fileadmin/DT/temi/a2a13/documenti/presentazione_080610.pdf

They plan a two tubes 1+1 tunnel for 40.000 vehicles per day. Usually I don't like new roads or widenings but single lane tubes in this case are madness, even for me. But I know that the only alternative will be do nothing.

And the alternative road on the other side of the plain isn't easily reachable: beside the N13, there is only a single lane road (a single lane in total, not 1+1): https://maps.google.ch/maps?saddr=A...FQePwAIdY42IAA&t=m&mra=me&mrsp=1,0&sz=17&z=14


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## Coccodrillo

A new bypass around 4 km long will be built to skip two villages west of Lugano, evaluated at 133 million CHF. Two short cut&cover tunnels will be built, 500 and 250 m, and a third one might follow to allow lengthening of the airport runway. Opening will be in stages from 2018 to 2022.

Yesterday in a cantonal referendum voters refused by 53% a "proposal" to build this bypass in a long tunnel (under the mountains west of the green road below) rather than mainly on surface. However, this tunnel was not financed at all, had no chance o receive federal funds, was evaluated at 1 billion CHF (it would have been longer, roughly from the Sudacciai roundabout to the north until the Italian border near Ponte Tresa) and was useless for most of the traffic (which goes from the "Piano di Agno" tunnel to Lugano via the "Agnuzzo" roundabout, or to other local destinations). Still the approved project has too many roundabouts in my opinion.

More far in the future two shorter tunnels (1.3 and 2.2 km) may link the approved road to Ponte Tresa and Italy.

The tunnel proposal was promoted by a local political party for electoral reasons, and had no chance of being built before 2050 (planning of the finally approved red route below started in around 1985). Even the cantonal minister of infrastructure and transportation, belonging to the same party, opposed that tunnel because he know perfectly that such proposal was utopian.

Location:

https://maps.google.ch/?ll=45.995665,8.903496&spn=0.01124,0.01929&t=m&z=16

Map:










Another road was approved yesterday to bypass Brugg in Aargau canton, but I don't know more about that.


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## Corvinus

Overlapping stretch of A1 and A2 between Rothrist and Härkingen, heading to Bern
Pics taken June 2013

1.









2.









3.









4.









5.


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## Coccodrillo

The Novena-Nufenen Pass reopened today. The highest snow walls are 9 m tall. Note the curious vehicle in the second photo.

Source: http://www.cdt.ch/ticino-e-regioni/cronaca/85700/sulla-novena-tra-muraglie-di-neve.html


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## Verso

I wanna drive there (possibly with the vehicle in the second photo ).


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## Sunfuns

Is that the last drivable pass to open this year?


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## ChrisZwolle

The Susten Pass is still closed. That is usually the last pass to open, possibly because it is on the northern side with steep slopes that pose an avalanche danger.


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## Energy2003

Question to the Swiss: 

Yesterday was a bad accident between Wallisellen and Winterthur. (both ZH)

i think there where 2 cars involved. One you couldn´t see cause of a tent arround.
Or maybe it was one car and someone got out and they made a tent ... i don´t know.

Of course this should be a screen to protect the victim ?! There is no other thing it could be, but when it goes for every minute, do they have time to build a tent around?

and is that common in Switzerland ?


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## Coccodrillo

Some more photos and a short video of the Novena-Nufenen: http://info.rsi.ch/home/channels/in...ne/2013/06/15--Riaperto-il-passo-della-Novera


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## javimix19

Hi, I have a question of Swiss Roads:

- Why San Gotardo Tunnel was constructed only with a one tube in 1980 and not with a two parallel tubes? (like all motorways)

- And there is another one tube tunnel in Switzerland inside of a motorway road?
(I hope you understand me, my english is not the best)


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## Coccodrillo

Hi

1) the expected traffic wasn't enough for a 2+2 tunnel, and initially a tunnel wasn't planned at all (that's why there are two roads leading to the pass from the south, the very old one and the one of the 1950s/1960s)
it is normal in Switzerland to build infrastructures or public buildings exactly sized for the planned level of traffic, to reduce cost and ease their approval by referendum (the two metro/light rail lines in Lausanne are partially single track and undersized because of that, even if transport engineers that designed them were perfectly aware that the design capacity would have not been sufficient)
by the way, the pass (and massif) name is San Gottardo in Italian and Sankt Gotthard in German (and Saint Gothard in French, with a "T" less)

2) there are sections of Autostrasse, that basically are like motorways but with one lane per direction, lower speed limit and sometimes permitted overtakings; for example sections of the A4, A8, A13 and A16 
for example *this section* of the A4 will have three two lane tunnels one after the other
*the A16* is being built with most tunnels with two lanes only to save money, but sections outside tunnels (and some shorter tunnels) will be 2+2 to allow overtaking; each two lane tunnel is designed with space reserved for a second tube if it is needed in the future


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## Coccodrillo

A new fund for roads is being planned: http://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=49444

Beside the increased vignette price (from 40 to 100 CHF) the fuel would raise by about 15 cents per litre.

A small bit of that fund would be used for urban traffic, including the non motorized and public ones, but for only about 5% or so of the annual spending. Between 3 and 4 billion CHF would come out from this fund annually. It will likely have to be approved by voters (the referendum against the vignette price increase found enough signatures, and the vote on that will be held in spring 2014 at the latest).

****************

Another small bit of the A16 will open on November 5th (the Graitery tunnel), citizens will be able to visit this tunnel this Saturday walking or by bicycle. The only other bit of motorway opening this year will be the 800 m Serrières tunnel on the A5 (replacing a substandard section on surface).


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## Suburbanist

Video Gotthard Road (N2) near Wassen


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## Fargo Wolf

Coccodrillo said:


> Note the curious vehicle in the second photo.


That's a Can-Am Spyder. A friend of mine has one.

http://www.spyder.brp.com/ca/spyder-rt/overview


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## kubam4a1

Where will the rest of funding go then?


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## Coccodrillo

^^ what?


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## kubam4a1

In an earlier post you mentioned an increase in road fund for Switzerland sourced from vingette price increase and fuel tax increase. I also understood that a small fraction of the increase will go for urban transport (only public/walking, or also for roads in urban areas?)?

I asked where the rest of increased funding will go.


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## Coccodrillo

Apparently I didn't understand correctly. Today's fuel taxes are:

fuel tax: ~43 cent per litre for unleaded, ~46 for diesel
extra fuel tax: 30 cent per litre (both)

They generated respectively 2x1482 and 1979 million CHF in 2012, which together with 319 millions from the vignette gave 3780 million for the existing road fund (half of the fuel tax, or 1482 million in 2012, go to the general budget). Again, a fraction of this went to urban transport.

The government's plan is to create a new fund, which starting from 2020 should give 3500/4000 million CHF a year, of which 3200/3600 for national roads (mostly motorways), the rest for urban transport (if public or private, it's likely up to the cantons). This new fund would receive money from the extra fuel tax (increased from 30 to 42 cents), the vignette (from 40 to 100 CHF, plus the 2-months vignette), and road vehicle taxes.

Apparently the old fund will be retained, but supplied only with 50% of the fuel tax (or, by then, 25% of the total of the two fuel taxes). That money would be given to cantonal roads, to the cantons for their wishes, for railways, and for the environment (also for protection against natural dangers).

The two funds (the new one and the modified old one) would compensate each other in case of necessity.


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## cougar1989

I will show you some pictures from my Roadtrip trough the EU+EFTA from 15/07/13 until 19/07/13. A3 - A2 - A1 - A5 - A1


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## lpioe

Thanks for the pics.
Destinations signed at interchanges are pretty strange sometimes. Especially Chiasso near Basel... 
I also think they should sign a city in Valais at the A1/A9 interchange near Lausanne instead of the 2 passes only.


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## keber

cougar1989 said:


>


That is way too much information for a driver to comprehend at once especially if he/she is not familiar with the area. I would assume that this is better solved in Switzerland.


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## OulaL

keber said:


> That is way too much information for a driver to comprehend at once especially if he/she is not familiar with the area. I would assume that this is better solved in Switzerland.


Then again, what can you do? Basel is a large city and the first thing one encounters when entering Switzerland - and the motorway runs straight through it.

It helps if one is familiar with the colours at least. Looking for a way far out of Basel? Stay on the motorway, look for the green signs, ignore all others. Looking for a certain part of Basel or a town nearby? Look for the blue signs. And so on.

Of course the colours for motorway and non-motorway destinations are right the opposite of those in France (green & blue vs. blue & green) and also differ from those in Germany (blue & yellow) ...


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## ChrisZwolle

The main problem is that a lot of destinations are displayed twice. This requires more time to read (you need to read it before you can conclude it's the same and not relevant).


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## earthJoker

OulaL said:


> It helps if one is familiar with the colours at least. Looking for a way far out of Basel? Stay on the motorway, look for the green signs, ignore all others. Looking for a certain part of Basel or a town nearby? Look for the blue signs. And so on.


To me the colors help a lot. I don't like this in Germany, you never know if a sign is for another motorway or just an exit. This is especially bad if you pass through a city. Like here:
https://maps.google.com/?ll=50.1016...=292nramscda7kM6X8yzqRA&cbp=12,345.03,,0,1.81
You have to look at the color of the number to see if this is a motorway split or an exit.


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## Jeroen669

I made a movie of the Gotthardroute between Biasca and Erstfeld yesterday.


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## Coccodrillo

All trucks must stop near Biasca to wait their turn, the exceptions are those to/from Ticino canton, not all those registered in Switzerland. These are labelled with an yellow "S" on a red background.


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## cinxxx

Is there the possibility to buy the Swiss vignette in Germany when driving on the A96 towards Lindau?


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## ChrisZwolle

There are no gas stations between Memmingen and Lindau. But there is an Autohof Aichstetten that may sell it.

It is possible to buy a vignette at the Illertal rest area on A7 between Ulm and Memmingen: http://stau.info/rastplatz/illertal-west


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## cinxxx

^^Illertal rest area should be ok, since I'm planning to drive over Ulm, to have the whole part of A7 between Ulm and Kempten clinched (I only have Kempten-Memmingen now)


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## OulaL

This time of the year, it probably won't be a hassle to buy the vignette directly at the border. (It might be in the change of January-February as they all expire at the same time, though.)

I bought mine in June in Basel at the French motorway border crossing. The officer even attached it directly to my windshield, all I had to do was open the window and give him the money.


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## ChrisZwolle

Whoops, wrong number installed at Verzweigung Augst. A2 doesn't go to Zürich.


CIMG0450 by krusefahrer, on Flickr

As it should be (and was in 2009):

IMG_5078 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

The new sign layout is an improvement though.


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## ChrisZwolle

A16 status:


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## Sunfuns

Swiss aren't more attached to their cars than elsewhere (possibly less), but they are particularly attached to their native areas and often prefer driving 40 min over moving closer to work. Trains are also every year more and more full...


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## John Maynard

Affirmative, train are completely full during rush hours and between major cities; also, you often have to remain standing for all the journey because their is not a single place to sit on (this is valid for all trains, including: IC, EC and IR). And If you have to take further a bus or a tram, it's almost very slow and no room (sometime you must wait for another bus/tram). 
Motorways are congested, but most what is a nightmare, is entering the cities which take more time than traveling inter-city or bypassing them.
Transiting for work between cities is just awful in CH, and nothing is done to improve it, or to release traffic (is the contrary in fact, for ideological reason).


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## Sunfuns

It would be better if people could move closer to work, but with high prices in cities and vacancy rates for apartments below 5% that's easier said than done. All this is a side effect of rapidly growing population (+20% since 1990). 

I commute with a train out of a city every morning and even in that direction train is 80% full for the first two stops. Of course it still beats driving...


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## John Maynard

For travels like Lausanne-Geneva (60 km) or Bern-Zurich (100 km) it's full for all the journey during rush hours.

Did you know that in Geneva and Vaud, many Swiss people lives now in France, because they can't afford rents, or there is no housing availability for a reasonable price? 
Public transports in France to CH are almost inexistent; so there is no choice but to use cars.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Problem is that many Swiss towns restrict construction of taller buildings or any new buildings. Especially those in more narrow valleys or in the mountains. I read they often use Spanish Pyrenees as a negative example of what can happen if there is taller development in foothill communities.


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## John Maynard

On the other side, the main reason of high prices and lack of available housing is CH jobs, salaries and life attractiveness for foreigners. It's also the reason of massive congestions on roads and cities, as well as fully booked public transports.

Recently, a federal level referendum against the urban sprawl was accepted by 62,9% of voters; so I wouldn't look in this direction hno:. 

Also, with less than 1,46 born/woman, massive rising of population is strictly done by immigration. Maybe the solution must be find in this field, if Swiss doesn't wants to enlarge or built roads, improve public transportation and refuse to build more housing (which is partially understandable with so many beautiful landscapes). 
Otherwise, it seems that asphyxia and deterioration of quality of life are the future, if no solution is found :bash:.


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## Sunfuns

The increased immigration is because of constantly strong and growing economy ale low unemployment even during a crisis elsewhere in Europe so it's not all doom and gloom. Uncommonly large percentage of those immigrants are highly educated people (mostly from EU) contributing a lot to the prosperity of the country.


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## Sunfuns

Also let's not lose the perspective here. The are problems (which country doesn't?), but the quality of the road network is already very high and the public transport is the best in Europe for sure.


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## John Maynard

The problem you mentioned comes from the Swiss education system that imposes "numerus clausus" or are excessively selective for those highly skilled and highly needed jobs. Do they prefer so foreign countries pays education for them, per ex. doctors or engineers, while Swiss must settle for an apprenticeship (btw. finding no jobs elsewhere than CH or Swiss companies)?


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## Sunfuns

There are Swiss doctors and engineers, just not quite enough considering the constantly rising demand and low birth rates among the native population. Swiss education system is quite similar to one in Germany and has served the local economy exceedingly well. Which other European country has been able to keep the unemployment below 5% during the last decade? 

Anyway this is completely off-topic. Back to the road network!


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## ChrisZwolle

Most of the Swiss congestion problems are - besides the obvious Gotthard Tunnel - in the less mountainous areas and can relatively easy be resolved by adding a lane. The Gubrist Tunnel near Zürich is a bit of an outlier in that aspect when compared to other parts of A1. The Swiss population grew by more than 1.5 million people since most of the main motorways were completed, and much of that population growth was in the northern Mittelland, which is not as mountainous as the popular image of the country.


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## John Maynard

Road quality is very good in general, train network is extensive and they're more often punctual, that's true (however, public transportations prices are very high as well). 
But the network - roads and railways - wasn't designed for such an increasings of users, it's now reaching almost it's full capacity, and will be more and more congested in the future. You see, it was designed to serve a population of 20-30 years ago, not now. What about if demography will keep growing, and in 20 years they will be again an increase of more than 20% of population?
As I said it will be a nightmare if no sensible solution is found.


----------



## Sunfuns

John Maynard said:


> Road quality is very good in general, train network is extensive and they're more often punctual, that's true (*however, public transportations prices are very high as well*).


Yes, but remember that hardly anyone pays a full price (half fare card is cheap and widespread) and commuter passes are subsidised. I pay 740 chf a year for Basel area - very cheap in my opinion. 



John Maynard said:


> But the network - roads and railways - wasn't designed for such an increasings of users, it's now reaching almost it's full capacity, and will be more and more congested in the future. You see, it was designed to serve a population of 20-30 years ago, not now. What about if demography will keep growing, and in 20 years they will be again an increase of more than 20% of population?
> As I said it will be a nightmare if no sensible solution is found.


Certainly construction of more infrastructure will be needed and some of it is already on-going or in plans. Another 20% more would make the country more congested for sure regardless of infrastructure, but I don't expect a nightmare even then. If it happens most of the increase will be in Zurich area. At that point a proper subway might be justified.


----------



## John Maynard

@Sunfuns:
By the way, not a single country in Europe has so low rate of university/tech students than CH, which is about 20%. Even Germany has more, and most of other countries have more than DE. So, solutions could be envisaged here to reduce impact on infrastructures / roads / housings / landscape as Swiss decided not to improve them or destroy the last.


----------



## Sunfuns

John Maynard said:


> @Sunfuns:
> By the way, not a single country in Europe has so low rate of university/tech students than CH, which is about 20%. Even Germany has more, and most of other countries have more than DE. So, solutions could be envisaged here to reduce impact on infrastructures / roads / housings / landscape as Swiss decided not to improve them or destroy the last.


I know that, but remember that part of a reason is that Swiss don't require university level qualification for jobs where it's not actually needed. It's kind of a vestige from a past and for better or worse it is changing slowly… Switzerland is culturally conservative in case you didn't know.


----------



## Verso

John Maynard said:


> Affirmative, train are completely full during rush hours and between major cities; also, you often have to remain standing for all the journey because their is not a single place to sit on (this is valid for all trains, including: IC, EC and IR).


Talk about good public transport. Here you have all train for yourself.


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## John Maynard

Almost everywhere in CH there is a massive increasing of population. Zurich is only a part of it. You must come to the Geneva Lake area and see, everywhere they're building housings and infrastructures to them (which will stop in the future since this votation), rental prices are rising at extremely high rate, infrastructures are congested, and quality of life is already diminishing with this and things like crime, increasing of prices in general, and unemployment rate is going up (Geneva has one of the highest in CH). 
Where are all the visionary Swiss? We need to find solutions not narrow-mindness.


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## ChrisZwolle

"quality of life" is highly subjective. Often a high quality of life comes at a high price too, making it unaffordable for a large proportion of the population.


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## Sunfuns

Basel is also growing, but at a more manageable rate than Zurich or Geneva. Not that much to complain about here just yet. 

Lots of villages in the mountains are losing population.


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## Corvinus

Thank God it's Friday!
The A4a today morning - first snow in this area between Zurich and Lucerne fell in the night.

1.









2.









3.


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## John Maynard

Sunfuns said:


> Yes, but remember that hardly anyone pays a full price (half fare card is cheap and widespread) and commuter passes are subsidised. I pay 740 chf a year for Basel area - very cheap in my opinion.


When I used to live in Warsaw, a major European city, I paid something like 110 CHF a year for all urban transportation, that includes metro, fast mass transit railways, urban railways, trams (lot of them), buses, express buses, touristic lines, etc. 

Many of them doesn't even exists in CH (like excellent express buses) and certainly not in Basel. 
The area of Warsaw is 517 km² comparing to Basel 23,91 km² and public transportation is very dense in the first.
So, it's actually very expensive IMHO - you should travel more outside CH and compare prices before making firm statements.

Note that Warsaw has one of the highest wages for this part of Europe.




Sunfuns said:


> At that point a proper subway might be justified.


I hope so! Metro is a very good solution for cities, but except Lausanne, there is none.


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## Sunfuns

John Maynard said:


> When I used to live in Warsaw, a major European city, I paid something like 110 CHF a year for all urban transportation, that includes metro, fast mass transit railways, urban railways, tram (lot of them), buses, express buses, touristic lines, etc.
> 
> Many of them doesn't even exists in CH (like excellent express buses) and certainly not in Basel.
> The area of Warsaw is 517 km² comparing to Basel 23,91 km² and public transportation is very dense in the first.
> So, it's actually very expensive IMHO - you should travel more outside CH and compare prices before making firm statements.


No way the average citizen in Warsaw makes anywhere close to Basel salaries. As for the area our pass is valid in about *30-35 km radius around the city* (in Switzerland only) in all modes of transport. I still think we get a very good deal. Comparable passes in neighbouring Germany or in UK are a lot more expensive...


----------



## John Maynard

Sunfuns said:


> No way the average citizen in Warsaw makes anywhere close to Basel salaries. As for the area our pass is valid in about *30-35 km radius around the city* (in Switzerland only) in all modes of transport. I still think we get a very good deal. Comparable passes in neighbouring Germany or in UK are a lot more expensive...


What make you write this way, have you got a superiority complex? Problem with all we wrote is that you think, that YOU (we, in fact) are the best in every field, ignoring advancements and possible changes in others European cultures, as thinking that everyone needs us. That's not true, we use too much propaganda against ourselves in this matter. You haven't even mentioned that for an average Swiss it has become almost unaffordable to live in his own country.
Furthermore, it's not true what you have stated; I lived in many places in Europe, also in Berlin, and it was cheaper than Basel, even if taking the fact that it's a much, much more bigger city (not comparable with any city in CH) ^^.


----------



## Sunfuns

John Maynard said:


> What make you write this way, have you got a superiority complex? Problem with all we wrote is that you think, that YOU (we, in fact) are the best in every field, ignoring advancements and possible changes in others European cultures, as thinking that everyone needs us. That's not true, we use too much propaganda against ourselves in this matter. You haven't even mentioned that for an average Swiss it has become almost unaffordable to live in his own country.
> Furthermore, it's not true what you have stated; I lived in many places in Europe, also in Berlin, and it was cheaper than Basel, even if taking the fact that it's a much, much more biggest city (not comparable with any city in CH) ^^.


Just for your information I was not actually born in Switzerland so let's cut all this superiority nonsense, ok? :lol:

Besides I don't think I wrote anything about cultural superiority. What I did write is about the economic success of the country and that would be very difficult to deny. Or do you think all those Germans moving here do so because they like mountains so much? There is always a percentage of people who don't know how to deal with money plus living on minimum salary is not fun anywhere, but objectively there is plenty of $$$ around here. Trust me it's a lot harder to live on an mean salary in Latvia (my native country) or US (lived there for 7 years).

As for public transport prices I was comparing not with Berlin, but with areas nearby just across the Rhine. Admittedly pretty much anything else is cheaper there.


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## John Maynard

Sunfuns said:


> Just for your information I was not actually born in Switzerland so let's cut all this superiority nonsense, ok? :lol:
> 
> Besides I don't think I wrote anything about cultural superiority. What I did write is about the economic success of the country and that would be very difficult to deny. Or do you think all those Germans moving here do so because they like mountains so much? There is always a percentage of people who don't know how to deal with money plus living on minimum salary is not fun anywhere, but objectively there is plenty of $$$ around here. Trust me it's a lot harder to live on an mean salary in Latvia (my native country) or US (lived there for 7 years).
> 
> As for public transport prices I was comparing not with Berlin, but with areas nearby just across the Rhine. Admittedly pretty much anything else is cheaper there.


No, you just act like having a superiority complex to point that you're the best .
So, according to you most average Swiss doesn't know how to deal with money? Isn't it a consequence of high rising of rentals prices (as you wrote previously), increasing of prices in general, transport costs going up, health insurance fees exploding, at almost 10% a year increase (while benefit decreases), food prices on the rise, holiday prices in CH upwards each year, while salary stagnates; curiously he doesn't seems to feel this "plenty of $$$ around here". 
Very funny point of view, are you sure you're not one of these Zürcher "selfish" wondering only for his close sweeties :lol:.

Germans (doctors) move here because they can earn money without being taxed (or very low), as banks are even closer, all equipped with banking secrecy, and lax taxing authorities in severe under-effective (just to say we don't care). This is the point. Good for Swiss, but disastrous for other countries. Instead, we could export some of our political equipment, but it's not very successful neither. Perhaps, we could drill a second Gotthard bore elsewhere, per ex. Arlberg, as it seems to be impossible here :nuts:.


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## Sunfuns

So what's your point anyway? Switzerland is a bad, bad place and we'd be better off living Berlin or Warsaw? Feel free, there are always some who go against the general trend. 

By they way nothing particular against those two cities except maybe the cold winter. I do like where I live right now, though.


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## ChrisZwolle

Switzerland is not that extremely congested. The most congested Swiss city, as expressed in the Travel Time Index, is Bern, which #56 of the surveyed 59 most congested urban areas of Europe. To compare, Berlin ranks #15 and Vienna #16.

(Note that the Travel Time Index measures the average delay per trip, which removes the distortion of city size to congestion rankings).

http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/


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## John Maynard

Sunfuns said:


> So what's your point anyway? Switzerland is a bad, bad place and we'd be better off living Berlin or Warsaw? Feel free, there are always some who go against the general trend.
> 
> By they way nothing particular against those two cities except maybe the cold winter. I do like where I live right now, though.


No, no and no! I never said that, but many people here are likely to think that they can have one's cake and eat it too (btw., very popular expression here )!
How could we house all these foreigners without improving any of our infrastructures, nor roads, nor housings, nor schools, nor anything, and even not exporting some of our "Swissness". It's very important, as all the world is becoming more and more skeptical to us, and all we can do is to submit like cowards (per ex. lex america) hno:. 
To pinpoint, I see no further economic development in here without accepting the consequences of it.


----------



## John Maynard

ChrisZwolle said:


> Switzerland is not that extremely congested. The most congested Swiss city, as expressed in the Travel Time Index, is Bern, which #56 of the surveyed 59 most congested urban areas of Europe. To compare, Berlin ranks #15 and Vienna #16.
> 
> (Note that the Travel Time Index measures the average delay per trip, which removes the distortion of city size to congestion rankings).
> 
> http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/


And Warsaw is the third most congested city in Europe .

Anyway, is this ranking not taking into consideration the area of a city for an average journey?


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## Sunfuns

ChrisZwolle said:


> Switzerland is not that extremely congested. The most congested Swiss city, as expressed in the Travel Time Index, is Bern, which #56 of the surveyed 59 most congested urban areas of Europe. To compare, Berlin ranks #15 and Vienna #16.
> 
> (Note that the Travel Time Index measures the average delay per trip, which removes the distortion of city size to congestion rankings).
> 
> http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/


Isn't that for driving only? I think the most honest measurement would be the average commute time regardless of a mode of transport.


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## ChrisZwolle

Only 15% of people's weekly trips are to and from work. So congestion is not only during commuting. Only about 30% of the AADT on the average major motorway is caused by commuting to work motives.


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## Sunfuns

John Maynard said:


> How could we house all these foreigners without improving any of our infrastructures, nor roads, nor housings, nor schools, nor anything, and even not exporting some of our "Swissness". It's very important, as all the world is becoming more and more skeptical to us, and all we can do is to submit like cowards (per ex. lex america) hno:.
> To pinpoint, I see no further economic development in here without accepting the consequences of it.


I, on the other hand, never said that improvements are not needed! Question of course is what is improvement and in what direction to go... 

One of the advantages of doing business (or living) in Switzerland despite high prices for most things is low taxes. Understandably society is reluctant to endanger that. Swiss prices + French taxes would be a deadly combination indeed. 

P.S. Which part of "Swissness" you'd like to export?


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## John Maynard

Sunfuns said:


> P.S. Which part of "Swissness" you'd like to export?


Definitively, our political "tools" of direct democracy - we could therefore compare other countries people's (not part of the government) opinions and make Europe more "democratic and free"; some low taxes; I wish we could export more swiss food, as well as Swiss cultural symbols like "unity despite diversity" and senses of "clean and tidy". They're many more in fact, but I don't have them in mind actually .
Our experience of tunneling and high altitude infrastructure could be an important contribution to other countries either.


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## Sunfuns

Food will be difficult to say the least. You don't see all that many German restaurants abroad either and for a good reason… :lol:

Romandie maybe different, I don't travel there often.


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## Suburbanist

^^ It is hard to compare prices of services that are subsidized AND heavily reliant on manpower while ignoring differences in wages and tax policy.

Express buses, for instance, require 1 driver for an average of - say - 20 passengers (plus any non-revenue driving). That is some expensive thing to have in a country like Switzerland. 

It has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority of cultures, it has all to do with costs.


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## John Maynard

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ It is hard to compare prices of services that are subsidized AND heavily reliant on manpower while ignoring differences in wages and tax policy.
> 
> Express buses, for instance, require 1 driver for an average of - say - 20 passengers (plus any non-revenue driving). That is some expensive thing to have in a country like Switzerland.
> 
> It has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority of cultures, it has all to do with costs.


So "poor" Poland or even "poor" Germany can afford it but not "rich" Switzerland.

Taxing in Poland is mostly comparable to CH (they're 2 flat rates), except VAT (but you can deduce it on many items by appropriate means).

As Sunfuns wrote isn't there "plenty of $$$ around here"? So is it just another "Swiss Myth"?

Thank you not to highlight your superiority by being curious of your European "neighbors" .


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## John Maynard

Sunfuns said:


> Food will be difficult to say the least. You don't see all that many German restaurants abroad either and for a good reason… :lol:
> 
> Romandie maybe different, I don't travel there often.


You are disgraceful to our good cuisine (sometime fat, it's true), what else, you should also travel more in CH and eat more regional specialties .


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## Sunfuns

It's not always a question of being able to afford or not, but also "do we need it and at what price?". You could in principle have a lot more public services here (free kindergarden like in France, for example), but the price would be higher taxes. Besides is it actually true that Swiss per capita investment for public transport is lower than in Germany or Poland? 

If you have to pay high salaries for your employees the incentive to automatise is much higher. That's just basic economics!

There's lot of wealth in the hands of private citizens, not necessarily for central government.


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## Sunfuns

John Maynard said:


> You are disgraceful to our good cuisine (sometime fat, it's true), what else, you should also travel more in CH and eat more regional specialties .


I've been in virtually every notable Swiss town at least once :cheers:

I'm just being honest. France and Italy have their own problems but food is better there for sure.


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## John Maynard

Sunfuns said:


> There's lot of wealth in the hands of private citizens, not necessarily for central government.


Correction, in the hands of few private citizens or corporations .


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## John Maynard

Sunfuns said:


> I've been in virtually every notable Swiss town at least once :cheers:
> 
> I'm just being honest. France and Italy have their own problems but food is better there for sure.


I must go to sleep now, so I have to wake up early. Good night :cheers:.


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## radamfi

ChrisZwolle said:


> Only 15% of people's weekly trips are to and from work. So congestion is not only during commuting. Only about 30% of the AADT on the average major motorway is caused by commuting to work motives.


Is that for Switzerland or for all countries?


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## radamfi

Suburbanist said:


> Express buses, for instance, require 1 driver for an average of - say - 20 passengers (plus any non-revenue driving). That is some expensive thing to have in a country like Switzerland.


I presume you are talking about the Swiss Postbuses? Why would they be particularly expensive in Switzerland? Express buses are run totally commercially in the UK and Ireland. National Express in the UK run a near nationwide network of services and Megabus (brand of Stagecoach) compete against National Express on most of its major routes. Even in Ireland there is competition on routes like Dublin to Galway. Germany has now got a lot of express buses since the market was deregulated.

Of course, the cost of the driver will be much more expensive in Switzerland, but I expect that the fares are much higher on average. Some of the tourist routes have eye-watering fares.


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## radamfi

If commuting journeys are only a small proportion of traffic, then there must be a lot of driving done at off-peak times for business and social travel, and at these times the trains are not so crowded. So Swiss people must be driving in preference to using the train, even when the train is available.


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## ChrisZwolle

If you look at hourly volumes of a major motorway (example: A12 in the Netherlands, east of Zoetermeer), you can see the off-peak volumes are only about 25% lower than peak volumes. 









If you look at a motorway with more through traffic, you'll see volumes are quite stable through the day, with not a significant peak hour (example: A1 east of Hilversum).









The latter graph shows a motorway that is very close to being congested throughout the day, a widening to 2x4 lanes is planned there.


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## John Maynard

The express buses I've been pointing, are urban buses with stops only at main artery stations, where there is the more request (no between).

However, you are talking about inter-city express buses, as well, they cruelly lack in CH, we do not have smth. like National Express, Bus Eireann, Polski Bus, Berlin Linien Bus, etc. (all private companies) on regular scheduled trip.
Instead, we have no choice but state-owned CFF-SBB that practices railway monopoly in this field; as if it wasn't already high enough, they're rising prices every year, nearly as they wish (Mr price is quite shy in here), and they don't even bother doing so, even if they are subsidized by taxpayers (also motorists) money.
Swiss Post buses (also a state-owned monopoly) only links area where CFF-SBB doesn't have a reliable connection or some touristic journeys. 
Of course, you a free to use a car/motorbike, but that's not public transport anymore.
Though, riding a motorcycle in the Furka Pass is very great too .


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## radamfi

Many European countries still don't allow private bus companies to compete against trains for inter-city travel, including Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria, France, Italy as well as Switzerland.

You can find international bus services calling at numerous towns in one country, but they don't usually allow domestic travel. For example, the London to Amsterdam Megabus service calls at Gent, Antwerpen and Rotterdam, but does not allow travel from Amsterdam to Rotterdam, or from Gent to Antwerpen.


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## radamfi

ChrisZwolle said:


> If you look at hourly volumes of a major motorway (example: A12 in the Netherlands, east of Zoetermeer), you can see the off-peak volumes are only about 25% lower than peak volumes.


Maybe traffic profiles differ by country?

The motorway near my house (M23 in West Sussex, south of London and M25) does have a significantly higher flow in peak times, and shows obvious tidality with traffic going to the M25 in the morning and back from it in the evening.


Hour Northbound Southbound
7 4677 2807
8 4335 3042
9 3159 2733
10 2401 2423
11 2230 2666
12 2212 2552
13 2212 2531
14 2548 2772
15 2782 3180
16 2946 4311
17 3438 4806
18 2723 4108


A very important strategic and congested motorway (M6 in Cheshire, between Manchester and Birmingham) has a more constant flow through the day, but still more peaked than your A1 example.


Hour Northbound Southbound
7 4903 5025
8 4675 4284
9 3942 4229
10 3981 4561
11 3397 4217
12 3389 3958
13 3095 3955
14 3480 4220
15 3600 4323
16 4407 4492
17 4193 3804
18 3116 4069


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## John Maynard

Exactly, it's not only a swiss issue. 

These prohibitions are just stupid; I would like to know what Swiss would have to say in this matter, as they always seemed to take position in favor of free enterprise and low taxes. 

Is Europe in general becoming more liberal than us?


----------



## radamfi

John Maynard said:


> Exactly, it's not only a swiss issue.
> 
> These prohibitions are just stupid; I would like to know what Swiss would have to say in this matter, as they always seemed to take position in favor of free enterprise and low taxes.
> 
> Is Europe in general becoming more liberal than us?


Public transport in Switzerland is well known for being very integrated. Integrated transport doesn't normally sit well with competition. The argument is that competing services undermine the primary network and resources consumed by the competition could be used to improve services elsewhere.

However, you can introduce an element of competition, but maintain integration, if services are tendered. Integration is also very important in the Netherlands, but all bus services outside the main cities are tendered. Does tendering for public transport exist in Switzerland?

In some countries, train fares are so cheap that there would not be so much of a market for competing inter-city bus services. For example, the maximum fare in Belgium is €20.60 and in the Netherlands it is €24.60, although these can easily be reduced to €7.60 in Belgium (10 tickets for €76) and €14.80 in the Netherlands (with the Dal Voordeel). However, I do appreciate that cheap bus services can be a lifeline to those on a low income. You can easily travel from London to Manchester (300 km) on a bus for £10 or less. But in Switzerland I guess people are so rich this argument doesn't work.


----------



## Sunfuns

Cheap buses would work here as well, but the thinking is that allowing them would damage the public investment in railways, crowd motorways even more and transfer public funds (used to build roads) to private companies. One could challenge this opinion of course, but I haven't heard of much movement in this direction. People actually prefer less traffic not more hence all the opposition to the second Gotthard tunnel.


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## radamfi

I don't think a new network of inter-city buses would make much of an impact on motorway traffic. Even in the UK, which probably has more coaches (long distance buses in Britain are known as coaches) than anywhere else in Europe, you are only looking at a maximum of about 20 vehicles per hour on each of the main approaches to London.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This is an hourly traffic count of A1 near Würenlos (just west of Zürich). Although there are pronounced peaks, the lowest hourly volume between the peaks is just 30% lower than the highest hourly volume.

Although a congested motorway may seem much busier than free-flowing traffic, throughput per hour is actually lower when totally congested than free-flow traffic (theoretically the throughput with completely stationary traffic is 0 vehicles/hour).


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> Switzerland is not that extremely congested. The most congested Swiss city, as expressed in the Travel Time Index, is Bern, which #56 of the surveyed 59 most congested urban areas of Europe. To compare, Berlin ranks #15 and Vienna #16.
> 
> (Note that the Travel Time Index measures the average delay per trip, which removes the distortion of city size to congestion rankings).
> 
> http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/


They must be joking. Bern is the only Swiss city where traffic runs smoothly.


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## radamfi

From my brief observations when on holiday in Switzerland, it certainly seems that volumes of traffic inside major Swiss cities seem very low compared to comparable sized towns in other countries, even if car traffic does seem to be slow moving. Importantly, local buses and trams do not suffer delays due to congestion. It does, however, raise the question as to where the vast amount of motorway traffic goes.


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## radamfi

I just looked at the train fare from Geneva to Zurich, nearly 300 km, and the normal fare with a Half Fare card is only 42 CHF. That's really not very much considering Swiss incomes. A competing bus service wouldn't be able to get away with charging more than 20 CHF, which surely isn't economic.


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## Sunfuns

Not necessarily. A driving cost in gas alone between the same destinations in a moderately fuel efficient car would be 30-35 chf one way. A train would be a bit faster and less stressful for a lone traveler, but if you have a full car then it's different.


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## Coccodrillo

Children up to 16 years old travelling with their parents or grand parents pay only 30 CHF per year, then the General Abo for families is cheaper than the sum of separate GAs.


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## Sunfuns

I know, but for a GA to pay off you either need to commute every day across the regional boundaries (Aarau-Basel, for example) or travel across the country often (Zurich-Geneva once a week or more). Otherwise you are better off with a local pass + half fare card.


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## Corvinus

In today's referendum, the proposal to increase motorway toll to CHF 100.- p.a. (from currently 40.-) is unlikely to win: 

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/100FrankenVignette-Eine-Niederlage-fuer-den-Bundesrat/story/15823189


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## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> semiautostrada


And semi-autoroute in French.


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## Suburbanist

I dislike "semiautostrada". "Strada a scorrimento veloce" is much more interesting.


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## Coccodrillo

"Strada a scorrimento veloce" is just horrible to read! Semiautostrada/semiautoroute/autostrasse just sound good (the last is the best of the three - no prefixes, just a word) :cheers:


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## John Maynard

*N6 Rawil-autobahn*

*Does anybody has a project (or detailed description) of the former N6 autobahn which was intended to pass under the Rawyl?
*
I am thinking, notably of a precise map (not the one which was linked previously in this thread), the sketches of the tunnel, configuration of the road, etc.

Thank you in advance!


----------



## earthJoker

I would be surprised if such detailed plans existed. The project never got very far.


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## Coccodrillo

It is snowing everywhere. The A13/H13 is closed, the A2 too (but apparently the H2 is open), the Engadine can be reached only via the Tirol (north or south) and the Vereina shuttle. The Albula and Bernina railways are also closed. Many valleys are isolated or accessible only from Italy (like Val Bregaglia or Val Poschiavo).

[email protected]: well, everywhere on the Alps...


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## Sunfuns

Raining in Basel (about +5 C) so not quite everywhere...


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## g.spinoza

Some parts of Switzerland are also not reachable even from Italy. A snowstorm blocked Simplon railroad on the Italian side, from Domodossola to Iselle.


----------



## Coccodrillo

MichiH said:


> Will all four missing A16 sections feature 4 lanes after their estimated completion in 2016?





Coccodrillo said:


> No. Basically all long tunnels + most of Loveresse-Moutier Sud will be 1+1.
> 
> Remember that around half of the 80 km of the motorway are in tunnels:
> 
> http://www.lotsberg.net/data/sveits/A16CH.html





MichiH said:


> ^^ I know: > click < . Can you give me more detailed information which sections are 1x2 or 2x2? Does all A16 sections have 1x2 parts?


Here: http://motorways-exitlists.com/europe/ch/a16.htm

However, it has a mistake: Bure tunnel is near the French border, not near Gloveleir (it appears twice in this website).

Still about A16, two nice profiles of the Choindey-Tavannes section (5 to 8 MB):

http://www.a16.ch/docs/A16_Choindez-Roches-Court.pdf

http://www.a16.ch/docs/A16_Court-Tavannes.pdf

Source: http://www.a16.ch/docs/

Note that the A16's website doesn't hide the content of the directories, so it is possible to download some videos/hidden documents, like there: http://www.a16.ch/video/BE/2010/20ans_construction/ (browse also upwards, like http://www.a16.ch/video/BE/2010/ and so on).


----------



## Suburbanist

Is there any movement in Switzerland to increase blank maximum speed limit to 130?


----------



## Coccodrillo

A popular initiative to increase speed limits and modify some other road laws is being prepared, but I don't know at which point it is.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'd rather see some of the tunnel speed limits going from 80 to 100 km/h. Right now you have to slow down from 120 to 80 all the time.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Beside exceptions, unidirectional tunnels have a 100 km/h speed limit, bidirectional tunnels an 80 km/h limit. I can't think of motorways where there is an alternance of 80 and 120 limits, while 120-100-120 is the norm.

I would feel unsafe a bidirectional tunnel with 100 limit, however, unidirectional tunnels might support 120 instead of 100.


----------



## devo

Norway's E 18 through Vestfold would go from 100 to 110, also through tunnels, when the whole stretch is completed in 2014. Weirdly, the road is designed for 115 km/h.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are one or two tunnels in the Netherlands that allow 130 km/h.


----------



## earthJoker

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'd rather see some of the tunnel speed limits going from 80 to 100 km/h. Right now you have to slow down from 120 to 80 all the time.


Which tunnels do you mean? I only know the Walensee section (westwards) which is 80km/h but that's because it's on an old normal street with lot's of turns. Some stretches in cities have 80 km/h but that's because of traffic and not because of the tunnels.


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## ChrisZwolle

Hmm, in my recollection there were many motorway tunnels limited at 80 km/h. But I viewed my A5 and A9 videos from 2010, and indeed the tunnels are limited at 100 km/h. Maybe I am confused with Germany.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> Hmm, in my recollection there were many motorway tunnels limited at 80 km/h. But I viewed my A5 and A9 videos from 2010, and indeed the tunnels are limited at 100 km/h. Maybe I am confused with Germany.


Germany is a disaster zone when it comes to their tunnels. Problem is that when Germans go through tunnels abroad they take their bad habits with them and slam their brakes. They must have some sort of a fobie or other issues of some kind. 

Switzerland isn't so bad with their tunnels as long as there are no Germans about. I've seen Swiss lorry drivers honking in despair at Helmut or Manfred in front...


----------



## keber

Tunnels with hard shoulders in general should not have any additional speed limit. This is my opinion, but it is sadly not shared by most motorway companies.


----------



## g.spinoza

Most motorway tunnels, even without shoulders, are not limited in Italy.


----------



## Corvinus

Some pics I took en route from Buchrain LU to interchange A14-A4 at Holzhäusern ZG.
March 2014

1. Turning left for the tunnel leading to A14 in Buchrain









2. looking left: tunnel entrance visible in the background. Tunnel length about 800m.









3. Made it to A14 and heading north









4. 









5. They sometimes operate a speed trap at this parking. How surprising ...









6. Gisikon/Root LU exit coming









7.









8. Canton of Aargau welcome sign 









9. _Verzweigung _A4 - A14 sign









10. Canton of Zug, the "cherry canton" welcomes us - Aargau territory lasted for only about 1 km!









11. So does your country have signs for neighbouring countries?









12. This is already after the _Verzweigung _A14 - A4. Physically we just continue straight on, but we are on A4 now heading to Zurich. Motorway is three-laned until _Verzweigung _A4 - A4a near Zug.


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## verreme

Driving into and around Genève on A1a and A1:


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## verreme

The motorway between Lausanne and Genève turns 50 in 2014. It opened in 1964 and was Switzerland's first motorway. I filmed it last month:


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## Suburbanist

^^ Any plans to make it 2x3?


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## verreme

^^ I know there are plans to enlarge Genève bypass, which is very congested, and the part closest to Lausanne is already 2x3 in peak hours. I don't know about the rest of the route though.

I filmed it in a Sunday when Genève's Salon de l'Automobile was being held, so traffic was crazy. I don't know how it's like on normal days.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Any plans to make it 2x3?


No. The Avanti ("go forward" in Italian) initiative in 2004 demanded that (together with more capacity on Bern-Zürich and Erstfeld-Airolo) but was retired by its promoters when the government proposed an alternative road improvement fund (not limited to these sections). This was rejected by 63% of voters. Now only if the proposed new road fund is approved widening of the Lausanne-Geneva motorway might go ahead.


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## Corvinus

Some of Main Road 23 en route between Sursee LU and Lützelflüh BE
Pics taken Apr 2014

1. 









2.









3.









4.









5.









6.


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## Verso

I was once in Lützelflüh. I know it's twinned with Slovenian Velike Lašče, there was a sign at the entrance.


----------



## Heico-M

Guys, I have a question.

I have read this read, and there has been a lot of discussion about the Gotthard tunnel and the traffic jams. Last Saturday, it started again.

I am going to spend my summer holidays in Switzerland and will have to cross the Gotthard on a Saturday afternoon (bad timing, I know, but cottages are for rent from Saturday to Saturday, so here we are!)

I was wondering if it is true that only few people leave the motorway in time and drive the parallel country road and drive over the pass.

That would mean, if I leave the motorway at Altdorf I should get away without considerable congestion?

What do you guys think?


----------



## Suburbanist

Heico-M said:


> Guys, I have a question.
> 
> I have read this read, and there has been a lot of discussion about the Gotthard tunnel and the traffic jams. Last Saturday, it started again.
> 
> I am going to spend my summer holidays in Switzerland and will have to cross the Gotthard on a Saturday afternoon (bad timing, I know, but cottages are for rent from Saturday to Saturday, so here we are!)
> 
> I was wondering if it is true that only few people leave the motorway in time and drive the parallel country road and drive over the pass.
> 
> That would mean, if I leave the motorway at Altdorf I should get away without considerable congestion?
> 
> What do you guys think?


From where to where are you driving exactly?


----------



## Heico-M

Suburbanist said:


> From where to where are you driving exactly?


From Schaffhausen to Aqcuarossa, Blenio Valley.

I know i can take a detour via Chur, Disentis and the Lukmanierpass, but I was asking specifically what is going on on the road parallel to the A2 north of Göschenen, direction south. 

I want to avoid the tunnel anyway as the pass is much more fascinating, I only wanted to know if it is futile to bypass the motorway or if there are 50000 other clever guys on the road who have the same idea?

Thank you.


----------



## Corvinus

Heico-M said:


> That would mean, if I leave the motorway at Altdorf I should get away without considerable congestion?
> 
> What do you guys think?


This actually worked for me in 2011. My pics of the Gotthard Pass road should still be in this thread  
There was no congestion on this detour route. You just have to pay attention to traffic announcements on the radio and take a motorway exit coming before the end of the jam. I was stuck for an instant in it until reaching the next exit.

Edit: said Gotthard Pass pics from 2011 are here.


----------



## Suburbanist

Heico-M said:


> From Schaffhausen to Aqcuarossa, Blenio Valley.
> 
> I know i can take a detour via Chur, Disentis and the Lukmanierpass, but I was asking specifically what is going on on the road parallel to the A2 north of Göschenen, direction south.
> 
> I want to avoid the tunnel anyway as the pass is much more fascinating, I only wanted to know if it is futile to bypass the motorway or if there are 50000 other clever guys on the road who have the same idea?
> 
> Thank you.


Most people don't dare to try the pass, tourists actually don't know the Gotthard pass is quite a wide and modern one, they probably think it is a narrow mountain road and stick to the tunnel queues. The pass itself is rarely congested. However, congestion on the highway reaches points before A2 last exist before the tunnel. Exit the highway in Wassen instead and take the local route. The Göschenen-Andermatt sector is very pretty, there is a nice seasonal waterfall next to the road.


----------



## Heico-M

Suburbanist said:


> Most people don't dare to try the pass, tourists actually don't know the Gotthard pass is quite a wide and modern one, they probably think it is a narrow mountain road and stick to the tunnel queues. The pass itself is rarely congested. However, congestion on the highway reaches points before A2 last exist before the tunnel. Exit the highway in Wassen instead and take the local route. The Göschenen-Andermatt sector is very pretty, there is a nice seasonal waterfall next to the road.


Thank you guys, looking forward to the tour. :banana:


----------



## Coccodrillo

Heico-M said:


> I want to avoid the tunnel anyway as the pass is much more fascinating, I only wanted to know if it is futile to bypass the motorway or if there are 50000 other clever guys on the road who have the same idea?


Not many people know that the pass road, even when leaving the motorway in Erstfeld to avoid the queue, is just 20 minutes slower than the motorway when it is empty (which means that the pass road is 2 or more hours _faster_ on peak days):

http://goo.gl/maps/kM1p2

http://goo.gl/maps/q0RGj

In the other direction it's similar. Note that on peak days Göschenen and Airolo junctions are closed in the direction of the tunnel to avoid people skipping the queue clogging up also the cantonal road.

Apparently most people like -or at least don't dislike- waiting hours in a queue...


----------



## Suburbanist

Speaking of the Gotthard tunnel, have they decided already on how to renovate it? Long single-shot closure? 4 consecutive spring/summer closures + pass improvements? Second bore (later to be operated as single lane)?


----------



## John Maynard

11 Kilometers traffic jam on the entrance of the Gotthard Tunnel for Eastern holidays, with no other alternative than to wait bumper against bumper for up to more than an hour:
http://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/57682...evant-l-entree-nord-du-tunnel-du-gothard.html

The Gotthard Pass road is closed, and will remain so till end of May/early June.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Do you think after the Gotthard Base Tunnel opens the opposition to doubling the Gotthard road route capacity will wane so that a referendum could be passed to revoke AlpTransit restrictions?

I mean: cars are much less pollutant today, and so are Euro5 trucks, than they were in the mid-1990s.


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## Sunfuns

In the summer there are alternatives, in the winter/spring there aren't unless you can get away with taking a train...


----------



## John Maynard

Coccodrillo said:


> In the other direction it's similar. Note that on peak days Göschenen and Airolo junctions are closed in the direction of the tunnel to avoid people skipping the queue clogging up also the cantonal road.


It's to tell you that YOU MUST STAY IN THE QUEUE if you want to go inside that tunnel :lol:. Though, imho If you have a nice sunny summer day, it's a lot nicer to go by the Pass.


----------



## Heico-M

It is rather to avoid people passing by the congestion and then re-enter the motorway on the last junction, congesting it even more.


----------



## Coccodrillo

There is a limit of 1.000 vehicles per hour per direction in the Tunnel (1 truck = 3 equivalent vehicles), so that people waiting to enter the Tunnel from Airolo or from Göschenen would quickly block both the villages* and the pass road. With the entrances closed they pass through without blocking everything (actually, Göschenen has a bypass, but would still be innacessible with both the A2 and the cantonal road blocked).



Sunfuns said:


> In the summer there are alternatives, in the winter/spring there aren't unless you can get away with taking a train...


That's true, but most peak days are when the pass is open (the main exception is Easter).



Suburbanist said:


> Speaking of the Gotthard tunnel, have they decided already on how to renovate it? Long single-shot closure? 4 consecutive spring/summer closures + pass improvements? Second bore (later to be operated as single lane)?


Second bore (theoretically) with a single lane, if voters approve it (it is a perfect case for neinsagers: those who say there is already too much traffic will vote no because they say with a second tunnel there would be more traffic, those who say there is not enough traffic say that money would be better spent elsewhere).



Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Do you think after the Gotthard Base Tunnel opens the opposition to doubling the Gotthard road route capacity will wane so that a referendum could be passed to revoke AlpTransit restrictions?


It's because a lot of money has already been spent on railways that many people will vote no in 2015. Wait and see.

(note that the new transalpine road capacity ban was not related to AlpTransit and was not proposed by the government of the time -that opposed it- but by citizens)


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> Not many people know that the pass road, even when leaving the motorway in Erstfeld to avoid the queue, is just 20 minutes slower than the motorway when it is empty (which means that the pass road is 2 or more hours _faster_ on peak days):


What are typical seasonal opening dates of the Gotthard pass?


----------



## John Maynard

g.spinoza said:


> What are typical seasonal opening dates of the Gotthard pass?


It's usually opened from mid-end of May/beginning of June till early-mid of November (depending on the weather).


----------



## Sunfuns

The earliest I've seen is the 3rd weekend of May, the latest 2nd weekend of June. I once drove on the pass road 3 days after the opening and it was quite impressive with 5-6 m of snow on both sides of the road at the top.


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## Coccodrillo

In 2001 it was kept open until December because the tunnel was closed following the fire.

If the tunnel will be closed for renovation without a second bore the pass will be kept open as much as possible, train shuttles reactivated and the road tunnel reopened during summers.

However to keep the Gotthard pass opened year long something to protect the road from avalanches should be done, and a lot of money would be needed to clear it after every snowfall. That's why when there is alternative and low traffic (road tunnel, train shuttles, or diversion) the passes are closed unlike some passes in the Dolomites which are kept open even if they are at the same altitude (Falzarego, Valparola, Sella, ...).


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## g.spinoza

^^ There are also passes which close in winter and no substitutes are in place (Stelvio).


----------



## MichiH

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ It will never be completed, if nobody works on it...
> The main and more needed objects of this motorway are the ~2.8 km Visper and the ~4.2 km Eyholz tunnels.


The works for the A9 i/c Visp-West have been started this week. It is planned to complete the i/c until 2017/18. The construction of the Eyholz tunnel is on schedule. The construction of the Visp tunnel will be started in September 2014 (source).


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## Coccodrillo

2024.


----------



## John Maynard

New cantonal road RC 177 is on its way to develop the Pole Vufflens-Aclens near Lausanne.

The road which will be 5,5 km long is likely to be opened (on an optimistic scenario) in 2019, at an estimated cost of 75 million Swiss Francs.

The proposed road will attract logistic centers and companies, creating 1'400 jobs; with a unique pickaback's center, a logistics that may become a main strategic issue throughout Western Switzerland.

Also, it will create new access to motorway A1, especially important for trucks, as relieving traffic in West Lausanne.









Proposed RC 177, with new sections in red.

Links:
http://www.vd.ch/themes/mobilite/routes/projets-routiers/rc-177-aclens-vufflens-la-ville-penthaz/
http://www.vd.ch/actualite/articles/nouvelle-route-cantonale-177-1/


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## Coccodrillo

Some updates on the A9, mainly from "IQ" on Wegenforum but with additions from myself: http://www.wegenforum.nl/viewtopic.php?f=264&t=1964&start=60#p767477

A map of the alignment can be seen on the homepage of the official site: http://www.a9-vs.ch/

* Susten-Gampel section (this one) should open end 2016-beginning 2017 (from Susten Ost to Gampel-Steg West junctions)
* construction of Riedberg tunnel may start in 2015 (there are geological problems), it is the short tunnel near point B in the map above
* the Eyholz tunnel has been completed, but I doubt it will open without the Visper tunnel
* one tube of the Visper tunnel is opened since a few year as a partial bypass to Zermatt/Saas Fee, construction of the other tube will start this year
* the existing tube of the Visper tunnel will be closed for 18 months from mid-2015 because of works in the other tube and nearby junctions
* I dare not speculate an opening date for these tunnels...but certainly not this decade
* works the Pfynwald section (this one), which includes a 4 km tunnel (mainly cut&cover), will not start before 2017; however this section is not that urgent (there is a fast, parallel 2-lane road built 10 years ago on a railway alignment freed up with the construction of two rail tunnels) (I suppose the existing road through Pfynwald will have to be closed for reconstruction)


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## ChrisZwolle

*A16 Transjurane*

Breakthrough has been achieved at the 500 meter long Loveresse Tunnel. It's part of the A16 from Court to Loveresse, which will open to traffic in 2016.

http://bo.bernerzeitung.ch/region/s...m-Bau-der-Transjurane-erreicht/story/18824798


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

What sections of a A2 are not completed ?


----------



## OulaL

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> What sections of a A2 are not completed ?


What does "not completed" mean? If it's "not motorway" then it's only Gotthard tunnel, 17 km.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They found radioactive waste on the construction site of A5 at Biel/Bienne. The radioactive waste was already found in 2012, but was kept secret from the public until this week. 

The radioactive waste likely originated from the watch industry, where they used a type of paint to have the dial glow. Apparently the radiation was relatively high, about 300 microSievert per hour. It's not a danger to public health, but not recommendable to have long exposures of that kind.


----------



## steve5

A2 in Osco, Piottino canyon, Ticino



















A2 in Giornico, Biaschina canyon, Ticino (viaduct has a height of 110m, built 1979 - 1983)


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## MichiH

*A16*

The next A16 section will be opened on 21st August (source).

*A16:* Bure – Porrentruy-East 1 8.8km (? to 21st August 2014) – project – map

A flyer provides information about the other sections. The last two sections should be opened in late 2016:

*A16:* Delemont-East – Choindez 1 ?km (? to Late 2016) – project – map
*A16:* Court – Loveresse 1 ?km (? to Late 2016) – project – map


----------



## RipleyLV

Some pictures from my €trip. Pictures taken last week. This was my first ever visit to Switzerland! 

*1.* A13.









*2.* Sarganserland Dreieck - A13/A3.









*3.* Taking the A3 for Zürich.









*4.* On A3.









*5.* Destination sign.









*6.* Near Walensee.









*7.* Reichenburg Kreuz.









*8.* Near Wollerau.









*9.* These pictures were taken after visit to Zürich. On A4.









*10.* At Rotkreuz my friend took a wrong turn for Gotthard, we needed A14 for Luzern.. 









*11.* ..so we ended up driving few km on A4.









*12.* Near Immensee.









*13.* At this exit we turned around, and went back to Rotkreuz for A14. 









*14.* Since we were camping in Brienz, our next destination was Milano in Italy. So I took a look at my famous 2005 Euro Atlas (  ), and found a shortcut road with number 11 to A2. It looked very straight in the map, so everyone agreed to drive on it. When leaving Brienz, it was quite strange to see that Italy and Gotthard was signed only for A8. I couldn't understand, we drove the A8 and it was full of sharp turns, climbs and downs, why nobody drives the straight road number 11? :dunno: Then, after few km it hit me. Appears this road climbs and climbs until it reaches it's highest destination, which is 2262 m :nuts:. Nevertheless, after such awesome views of mountains no one was disappointed and it made our trip even more awesome!  You may well ask why didn't we took a look at GPS? Well, **** the GPS! 









*15.* Curves at Sustenpass.









*16.* 2 km above sea level. Also, at this point photos are getting crappy, since my friend took them, while I was behind the wheel.  









*17.* Driving in the 3rd longest road tunnel in the world. 









*18.* Interesting for me to see was how languages change as you travel closer to Italy. For example, exits near Austria were written in German - _Ausfahrt_, here it's - _Uscita_, in Italian.









*19.* Last picture.


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## Suburbanist

Not much snow aroudn the Sustenpass this year


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm surprised by that as well. Sustenpass is often one of the last passes to open. I was there in 2010 in mid-June and it was still closed for the winter.


----------



## Verso

http://goo.gl/maps/O0Ysb


----------



## Coccodrillo

Some videos from Swiss state television, in French. I have seen only the third one for now, I liked it, but I cannot judge the others.

The Great St Bernard tunnel, in a video from 1962:

http://www.rts.ch/archives/tv/divers/3441341-au-coeur-des-alpes.html

Then the Mont Blanc tunnel, also in 1962:

http://www.rts.ch/archives/tv/divers/documentaires/3645862-tunnel-du-mont-blanc.html

The first proposals for the Gotthard base tunnel, in a video from 1972:

http://www.rts.ch/archives/tv/information/affaires-publiques/5527087-tunnel-de-base.html

Finally, a description of some rail coaches with rubber wheels instead of steel wheels. They had to reduce their weight from 30 to 13 tonnes, but even witht his reduction, they needed two bogies with 5 axles each instead of just two for heavier coaches with steel wheels.

http://www.rts.ch/archives/tv/information/c-etait-hier/5527015-des-wagons-a-pneus.html


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## Suburbanist

I have two questions regarding operations near the Gotthard road tunnel:

1- Suppose that for some reason a driver from Göschenen wants to take the tunnel southbound. If there is congestion on A2 before the tunnel, what is the procedure adopted there? Are drivers coming from there allowed to enter the tunnel on this junction? Is this junction closed and drivers forced to drive all the way up to Wessen before turning south?

2- Do they close the old Gotthard route (Bartola-Tremola) when the road pass is congested or heavily trafficked, or are you allowed to drive through it all the time?


----------



## cougar1989

Last week I made a little roadtrip, here are the pictures


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## cougar1989

2x post, del please


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> I have two questions regarding operations near the Gotthard road tunnel:
> 
> 1- Suppose that for some reason a driver from Göschenen wants to take the tunnel southbound. If there is congestion on A2 before the tunnel, what is the procedure adopted there? Are drivers coming from there allowed to enter the tunnel on this junction? Is this junction closed and drivers forced to drive all the way up to Wessen before turning south?
> 
> 2- Do they close the old Gotthard route (Bartola-Tremola) when the road pass is congested or heavily trafficked, or are you allowed to drive through it all the time?


1) When the queue is longer than a certain amount, the junctions before the tunnel where the queue is are closed. So not only Göschenen, sometimes also Wassen, and the same happens on the other side.

2) I don't know, but I don't think so. The pass road is rarely congested, as most people prefer to wait hours in queue...


----------



## Suburbanist

Grimsel, Gotthard and Simplon are the very best mountain roads in Europe above 2000m, but whereas many are comfortable planning routes through Simplon, they assume the Gotthard route is something like a Giro dItalia track.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think many people who have the Gotthard Pass as an alternate route in mind realize too late they need to exit, so they are stuck in traffic anyways. Also, many caravan drivers are not experienced in mountain driving and are too scared to take the pass. Note that the far majority of drivers are not as informed about the roads as we are.

But there was some construction on the pass between Göschenen and Andermatt, which led to long delays. Maybe not as long as the tunnel queue, but delays of over 30 minutes were reported at the _Baustelle_.


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think many people who have the Gotthard Pass as an alternate route in mind realize too late they need to exit, so they are stuck in traffic anyways.


What happened to real-time GPS navigation apps? A regular Garmin or TomTom unit (or app) should be able to warn the driver, in time, that there is a much faster route via the pass.


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Note that the far majority of drivers are not as informed about the roads as we are.


Yes, but you don't have to be a road fanatic to look at a map...a quick search with Google Maps' route calculator would be enough.



ChrisZwolle said:


> But there was some construction on the pass between Göschenen and Andermatt, which led to long delays. Maybe not as long as the tunnel queue, but delays of over 30 minutes were reported at the _Baustelle_.


Because ASTRA though it was a good idea to continue working on peak days. When they discovered that these works clogged up also the pass road, they decided to avoid working on peak days as much as possible in the future.

The Schöllenen works will last until 2019, together with the refurbishment of the pass road (which has to be done before the closure of the Gotthard tunnel).

More info here: http://www.schöllenen.ch/

***********************

Here are some scanned documents about what was planned to be the future of the Gotthard link, both rail and road, published around 1963. They are in German and Italian.

http://www.alexandria.admin.ch/AT1.htm


----------



## Des

Coccodrillo said:


> before the closure of the Gotthard tunnel


They plan on closing it?! :S


----------



## Road_UK

Unlikely. You don't want to cut off TI from the civil world... 

(by the way, I am missing my ally in the Ukraine thread)


----------



## Samply

http://www.tcs.ch/de/auto-mobilitaet/verkehrsinfo/sankt-gotthard.php 
Yes the Gotthard will be closed for a while. 
BTW as the Gotthard base tunnel will be open by then, could that not be an option?


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Unlikely. You don't want to cut off TI from the civil world...


Yes, south of Chiasso begins the Amazon forest. :lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

I think the plans is to build a 2nd tube before closing the major one



> *Il Consiglio federale, dopo studi approfonditi delle diverse varianti di risanamento, ha deciso di optare per la costruzione di un secondo tubo senza aumento della capacità.* Il relativo progetto di legge, dopo la procedura di consultazione (dicembre 2012 - aprile 2013), è attualmente al vaglio dalle Camere federali. Un eventuale voto popolare è previsto per il 2015.
> 
> Il Consiglio di Stato ritiene che la costruzione di un secondo tubo costituisca la miglior soluzione per ragioni finanziarie, tecniche, economiche, di viabilità, di sicurezza e di coesione nazionale. Esso sostiene quindi con forza il progetto del Consiglio federale, come anche il perseguimento deciso e parallelo della politica di trasferimento delle merci dalla strada su rotaia.


Source

"The Federal Council, after in-depth studies on the diverse alternatives for refurbishing, decided to choose for the construction of a second bore without capacity increase".


----------



## italystf

And after works are completed, one of the two tubes will be closed anyway, since two tubes are incompatible with crazy Swiss laws. If they think that long queues of standing smoking vehicles are very good for the environment...


----------



## Sunfuns

The hope, futile in my opinion, is that people will simply choose not to go. Or take a train instead. Train is going to gain some extra share after GBT is opened, but still it's a preferred option only if you want to go to Lugano/Locarno or Milan. Any destination away from the main train route is still reached faster and more conveniently by driving.


----------



## italystf

It's unrealistic to think that it's better to keep old bad roads to prevent people from driving. It's better to build the second tube: it won't spoil the mountain since it's underground and it will reduce congestion, thus pollution. Increasing capacity doesn't necessarily increases AADT, since people usually don't drive for fun. Train is competitive with cars only for travels between centers of major towns served by the railway. Every travel that involves changing more than 2 trains\buses is usually faster by car (except inside very congested urban areas where parking is scarce and expensive). People travelling from Zurich to Lugano may considering taking a train, those going from a village in Zurich canton to another in Ticino canton, won't.


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## mcarling

My understanding is that both tubes will stay open, but will be restricted to one lane per tube.


----------



## Suburbanist

mcarling said:


> My understanding is that both tubes will stay open, but will be restricted to one lane per tube.


Exactly. 

I quite like the solution, for which it creates the physical infrastructure needed should a later referendum approve the opening of the tunnel on a 2x2 configuration, after all rail projects are completed and all older pre'-Euro 5 vehicles are essentially phased out.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Emissions from trucks has been greatly reduced in the 20 years since the referendum banned transit traffic growth. They could have much more trucks per day with less emissions than in 1994.

They need a more pragmatic approach to the Gotthard Tunnel. At least the new tube should have space for 2 lanes, to allow an easy conversion to 2x2 lanes should the 1994 referendum be changed. Anything else is a giant waste of money.


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> They need a more pragmatic approach to the Gotthard Tunnel. At least the new tube should have space for 2 lanes, to allow an easy conversion to 2x2 lanes should the 1994 referendum be changed. Anything else is a giant waste of money.


I think a particular bad option is the one regarding "improving" the Gotthard pass route with more tunnels and avalanche sheds. It would cost a lot, and it would still not make the route passable year-round. The Gotthard pass is quite a wide and modern route as Alpine passes go. It makes no sense to spend couple billions CHF to increase its operating span just another 8-10 weeks per year. Better to excavate another bore. 

Actually, I think there is already a "pilot bore" on the Gotthard right? Enough to fit service vehicles, which would be enlarged to accommodate 2-lane traffic while the current tube is renovated.


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Emissions from trucks has been greatly reduced in the 20 years since the referendum banned transit traffic growth. They could have much more trucks per day with less emissions than in 1994.


Also CO2?



ChrisZwolle said:


> They need a more pragmatic approach to the Gotthard Tunnel. At least the new tube should have space for 2 lanes, to allow an easy conversion to 2x2 lanes should the 1994 referendum be changed. Anything else is a giant waste of money.


The second tube would have two lanes of the same width, but no shoulder (because one of the two full width lanes would act as a shoulder).



Suburbanist said:


> I think a particular bad option is the one regarding "improving" the Gotthard pass route with more tunnels and avalanche sheds. It would cost a lot, and it would still not make the route passable year-round. The Gotthard pass is quite a wide and modern route as Alpine passes go. It makes no sense to spend couple billions CHF to increase its operating span just another 8-10 weeks per year. Better to excavate another bore.


It is not planned to keep open the pass road year long, works being done today are just heavy maintenance which would be done anyway. I don't know their cost, but certainly not a couple of billions...



Suburbanist said:


> Actually, I think there is already a "pilot bore" on the Gotthard right? Enough to fit service vehicles, which would be enlarged to accommodate 2-lane traffic while the current tube is renovated.


It does exist a pilot tunnel on the axis of the then planned second tube (which runs between the second, unused, portals on both sides), but a second tube if built now would be entirely new, so to continue to use the pilot bore as safety tunnel and because it is full of cables and infrastructure which would have to be moved elsewhere.


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Also CO2?


CO2 is harmless at point of emission, concerning on a global scale. In any case, reducing road capacity is not a smart way to fight CO2 emissions, it is a global problem that can only be addressed with large-scale solutions.

But while we are at it, energy efficiency of road traffic is at its lowest when you have stop-and-go traffic due to congestion. 

Otherwise, it is like trying to address global hunger problems by disallowing bread appetizers served on restaurants.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ On the southern side at elast, there are two traffic ligths: the real Blockabfertigung before the Gotthard tunnel, and another before the tunnel just before ("Stalvedro"), so that the stop and go traffic is mainly (or should be) before the Gotthard tunnel, but less before the Stalvedro tunnel, where vehicles wait longer but start massively to fill the successive waiting area when it is more empty.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> Also CO2?


CO2 emissions are irrelevant at local level, because they don't impact local areas, but are a global problem. Lower speed limits, or slightly less traffic is not going to make any material difference in global or even national CO2 levels. 

A stronger point would be noise levels. But A2 runs through a thinly populated valley at both ends, and many localities are already protected by noise barriers and a large number of artificial tunnels. 
Although it could be argued the Swiss don't _really_ care that much about highway noise, as most motorways do not have noise-reducing pavement, in some cases even outdated concrete.


----------



## g.spinoza

mcarling said:


> My understanding is that both tubes will stay open, but will be restricted to one lane per tube.


Like buying a Ferrari with a Fiat Panda engine...


----------



## earthJoker

italystf said:


> And after works are completed, one of the two tubes will be closed anyway, since two tubes are incompatible with crazy Swiss laws. If they think that long queues of standing smoking vehicles are very good for the environment...


Start-stop automatic will solve this problem within the next year. Any improvement on the Gotthard will shift traffic from other routes to the Gotthard, that is what the constitution change in 1994 just wanted to avoid that (and shift traffic to the trains).


----------



## rower2000

earthJoker said:


> Any improvement on the Gotthard will shift traffic from other routes to the Gotthard, that is what the constitution change in 1994 just wanted to avoid that (and shift traffic to the trains).


The only alpine crossing with a possible shift towards Gotthard is San Bernardino and there are rarely queues - so why should traffic relocate? Neither the Mont-Blanc-Tunnel nor Brenner are close enough to the Gotthard route to cause significant relocations of traffic. Truck traffic can still be limited by a maximum admissible number per hour as is in effect today such that the shift of freight transport towards rail is still achievable.


----------



## Suburbanist

rower2000 said:


> Truck traffic can still be limited by a maximum admissible number per hour as is in effect today such that the shift of freight transport towards rail is still achievable.


I think a compromise that opens two lanes per direction on tunnels while also keeping a hard limit on truck crossings would be the second-best solution. It wouldn't bring more trucks to the valleys - and modern car pollution there is low and lowering as modern cars replace older 1990s ones, which usually slash local pollution by 70% or more. 

If they want to divert some trucks, they could charge the same tolls of the Frejus, Mont-Blanc and Gran San Bernardo on the Gotthard and San Bernardino tunnels as well... but that is a whole new discussion.


----------



## Vaud

Suburbanist said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I quite like the solution, for which it creates the physical infrastructure needed should a later referendum approve the opening of the tunnel on a 2x2 configuration, after all rail projects are completed and all older pre'-Euro 5 vehicles are essentially phased out.


Which is why many people opposite it.

The Constitution as amended by the Swiss people strictly forbids the increase of capacity through the Alps. Period. There's no more possible discussion about it.


----------



## eeee.

Just a side note: a discussion is not only possible but also necessary. People can change their mind. Different generations have different opinions. The constitution is not carved in stone.

But yes, the current public opinion won't allow more than a one lane road through the Gotthard.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Exactly. Unfortunately public discussions like these usually lack rational thinking. 

If you repeat things long enough, people will believe it.


----------



## F81

Couldn't they close the pass? The total capacity with 2x2 tunnel wouldn't increase!


----------



## sponge_bob

earthJoker said:


> Start-stop automatic will solve this problem within the next year. Any improvement on the Gotthard will shift traffic from other routes to the Gotthard, that is what the constitution change in 1994 just wanted to avoid that (and shift traffic to the trains).


The big change in Switzerland was allowing bigger trucks around 2000. That and the toll system have led to a small but noticeable ....and ongoing ....reduction in truck transit traffic across Switzerland starting 2001. The problem with the base tunnels is that either they all work or none of them work. The Gotthard on its own will not make much of a difference to truck transits IMO, the three base tunnels together probably will ...but by 2020 and including the second bore of the Lotschsberg that is unbuilt and cannot be finished in less than 3 years.

Data here to 2013 ( multiple languages inc English)

http://www.bav.admin.ch/verlagerung...O2Yuq2Z6gpJCDe4F2g2ym162epYbg2c_JjKbNoKSn6A--

Switzerland could bring in emissions regulations skewed towards modern trucks and that would make a bigger difference than taking 50% of 2001 era HGV transits off the road in one fell swoop. Modern Diesel cars , as in post 2000, are infinitely better than pre 200 one s and they were infinitely better than pre 1990 diesels themselves. 

In fact it must be 10 years since I abandoned my automatic 'must overtake' response when I came up behind a bus, they are so clean nowadays. 

Had the Swiss known in 1990 how much better Diesel engines would become by 2015 they may not have committed themselves to all these base tunnels, and the enormous cost, at all.


----------



## earthJoker

rower2000 said:


> The only alpine crossing with a possible shift towards Gotthard is San Bernardino and there are rarely queues - so why should traffic relocate? Neither the Mont-Blanc-Tunnel nor Brenner are close enough to the Gotthard route to cause significant relocations of traffic.


The Brenner is not that far for many routes from Germany to Italy and vice versa. Especially for anyone north of Stuttgart going south of Modena 


> Truck traffic can still be limited by a maximum admissible number per hour as is in effect today such that the shift of freight transport towards rail is still achievable.


So you just want an improvement for cars alone?


----------



## OulaL

Vaud said:


> The Constitution as amended by the Swiss people strictly forbids the increase of capacity through the Alps. Period. There's no more possible discussion about it.


Sure there is. We are discussing right here and now. The Swiss constitution doesn't forbid discussion.

More importantly, the Swiss constitution doesn't forbid changing the Swiss constitution, although it sets some requirements to such changes.


----------



## Suburbanist

earthJoker said:


> So you just want an improvement for cars alone?


Yes. Cars are much cleaner today, they don't pollute the valley anymore, but their sheer numbers make the route congested at times.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The most severe congestion is at days and times when truck traffic is banned anyway. So taking more trucks off the Gotthard Route will do practically nothing to reduce traffic congestion.


----------



## rower2000

earthJoker said:


> So you just want an improvement for cars alone?


I think the reduced NOx emissions because of the reduction of congestion will have a higher effect than the induced traffic because of the capacity increase. My car uses about 40 to 50% more fuel in congested traffic than in free-flow at 100 to 120 kph. Traffic induction on days without congestion will be negligible as on those days the travel time is not changed. I strongly doubt that the induced traffic on the highly affected days will exceed 10%.

And for the "the constitution was amended - period - end of discussion" argument: this amendment can just as well be repealed by another referendum. I think there is a good chance that in a new referendum - and such a referendum will come in the next decade, I'm pretty sure about that - a twinning of the Gotthard tunnel will be approved.


----------



## mcarling

Suburbanist said:


> Do they have plans for an A6 link with A16 with some Bienne bypass?


It is shown at openstreetmap.org


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> It is 8.8 km long and includes a 3 km single tube tunnel,


So the tunnel is single tube? On Openstreetmap it is shown as two tubes, and satellite images seem to show two portals at each end.


----------



## mcarling

g.spinoza said:


> So the tunnel is single tube? On Openstreetmap it is shown as two tubes, and satellite images seem to show two portals at each end.


Maybe one is an escape tube?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are two portals, but one traffic tube:


----------



## g.spinoza

Ah, I see.
Thanks.

It seemed odd, but then again, it's Switzerland. Why use two things when you can build two and use one?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

These are the 2013 traffic volumes on A16. It's no A1 obviously, but it's not entirely deserted either. Many countries are building motorways for this kind of traffic volumes, though one could argue the A16 funding (more than € 5 billion) would've been better value for money on the Bern - Zürich corridor.










full map

Switzerland has a pretty robust traffic growth though. Quite a bit of stretches have a 2-3% traffic growth, year-on-year. The busiest motorway in Switzerland is A1 east of Zürich with 142,000 vehicles per day.


----------



## Sunfuns

Switzerland currently has one of the fastest growing populations in Western Europe therefore everything associated with it grows too. Traffic growth, train usage growth, building boom etc.


----------



## Road_UK

I'm surprised that Switzerland is so overpopulated comparing to Austria. Here in Tirol there is not a lot there because of the mountains. But Switzerland has mountains...


----------



## Sunfuns

Road_UK said:


> I'm surprised that Switzerland is so overpopulated comparing to Austria. Here in Tirol there is not a lot there because of the mountains. But Switzerland has mountains...


Almost double 198 vs 101 people per square kilometre (including mountains). Actually a bit surprising to me too, I thought there are more people in Austria.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Austria is twice as big as Switzerland.

I noticed many people perceive the Swiss vignette to be very expensive. They probably have a problem dishing out that kind of money at once and compare it to the Austrian vignette. But they forget you can do a return trip on one Swiss vignette, while in Austria you usually require two for a holiday in Italy, plus the additional tolls on many transalpine routes. 

A typical return trip through Switzerland (Basel - Chiasso) is 600 kilometers. Try driving 600 kilometers on a French toll road and see how much that will cost you...


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## Road_UK

Lyon to Marseille and back = roughly same distance, roundtrip = 49€










And you don't require two Austrian vignettes for a holiday in Italy. 10 day vignette is roughly 10€, 2 month vignette 25€ and a year vignette 80€. Swiss vignette 40€.


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## Sunfuns

I wonder how long it would take to go from Basel to Italy via Switzerland without using motorways. It could be an interesting ride although of course much slower and might be feasible only in summer.


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## Road_UK

Well, let's say spring and autumn. Nothing worse than being stuck behind German tourists or Dutch caravans...


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Sunfuns said:


> I wonder how long it would take to go from Basel to Italy via Switzerland without using motorways. It could be an interesting ride although of course much slower and might be feasible only in summer.


You would probably use Gotthard pass,which is the best pass in my opinion.


----------



## Corvinus

Road no. 28 from Zernez to the border crossing for Livigno (I).
Great scenery and road quality!
Photos taken: August 2014

1.










2.










3.










4. Oncoming cars obediently move to the far right as the bus is manoeuvered through the curves










5. There are straight stretches! (and tourist caravans overtaken by the time-tabled bus)










6.










7. Border is not far ahead (pics in the borders thread).


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## earthJoker

Suburbanist said:


> Good, now there are just 2 sections remaining.
> 
> Do they have plans for an A6 link with A16 with some Bienne bypass?


Plans? It's under construction.


----------



## Suburbanist

earthJoker said:


> Plans? It's under construction.


Sorry, I wrote it wrong. I wanted to ask when will the remaining 2 sections be completed.


----------



## Road_UK

You asked about plans


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> Good, now there are just 2 sections remaining.
> Do they have plans for an A6 link with A16 with some Bienne bypass?





Suburbanist said:


> Sorry, I wrote it wrong. I wanted to ask when will the remaining 2 sections be completed.


^^



MichiH said:


> *A16:* Delemont-East – Choindez 1 ?km (? to Late 2016) – project – map
> *A16:* Court – Loveresse 1 ?km (? to Late 2016) – project – map
> *A5:* Biel-Port – Biel-East 12 4.9km (December 2007 to 2017) – project – map


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## Coccodrillo

The remaining section linking the two parts of A5 is even farther away in the future (2030 at the earliest), and it would mainly be 1x2. As every new project it depens on the (hypothetical) new road fund.

The upgrade/new construction to motorway or just autostrasse for the road along lake Biel-Bienne is not even planned.


----------



## verreme

^^ That would mean boring new tunnels right? The existing ones are 2+2.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How deep is Lac Léman there? Is it comparable to a fjord? The Norwegians have been building such tunnels on an increasingly larger scale - the largest currently in advanced stage of design is 26 kilometers long (double-tube).


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Norwegians have been building such tunnels on an increasingly larger scale - the largest currently in advanced stage of design is 26 kilometers long (double-tube).


What is the name of that tunnel ?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It is the Boknafjord Tunnel.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> How deep is Lac Léman there? Is it comparable to a fjord? The Norwegians have been building such tunnels on an increasingly larger scale - the largest currently in advanced stage of design is 26 kilometers long (double-tube).


Wow, that's impressive. It will be the longest road tunnel in the world (1,5km longer than the Laerdal tunnel), and, by far, the longest double-tube road tunnel in the world.


----------



## Vaud

ChrisZwolle said:


> How deep is Lac Léman there? Is it comparable to a fjord? The Norwegians have been building such tunnels on an increasingly larger scale - the largest currently in advanced stage of design is 26 kilometers long (double-tube).


Not much,


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I see, that makes a tunnel much cheaper than in Norway (you don't need long ramps). Some Norwegian tunnels even have spirals to gain or lose altitude (similar to several tunnels in Switzerland I know of, for example the A8 tunnel near Brienz, or a local tunnel up to Isenfluh)


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> I see, that makes a tunnel much cheaper than in Norway (you don't need long ramps). Some Norwegian tunnels even have spirals to gain or lose altitude (similar to several tunnels in Switzerland I know of, for example the A8 tunnel near Brienz, or a local tunnel up to Isenfluh)


SS659 in Piedmont, Italy, has an helix-shaped tunnel to climb a steep slope.
https://www.google.it/maps/place/Do...2!3m1!1s0x4785f11624978923:0xe1a82f52298219d1
It's the only one in Italy.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ There is another spiral on a road in Italy, near Rome, but it is not entirely underground and I cannot remember where it is exactly. Then there are the San Boldo pass horseshoe tunnels.

Chris, the A8 Soliwald and the Isenfluh tunnels are the only spiral road tunnels in Switzerland I can remember right now. Are there others? In Norway, I know the spiral tunnel in Drammen, are there others?


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> The National Council (Nationalrat) has approved the construction of a second Gotthard Tunnel tube with a comfortable majority; 109 votes for and 74 against.


The quest for signatures started this morning: http://www.noalraddoppio.ch/nein-2te-roehre/mitmachen_aktiv/news_aktiv.html


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ There is another spiral on a road in Italy, near Rome, but it is not entirely underground and I cannot remember where it is exactly. Then there are the San Boldo pass horseshoe tunnels.


There is also the southbound carriageway of A6 near Savona:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/44.3169/8.3786

not entirely in tunnel, but this is the only spiral curve on motorway in Italy, possibly in Europe.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Sierre - Susten*

The construction of A9 through the _Pfynwald_ has been approved by the Bundesrat. It is 8.5 km of motorway from Sierre to Susten. Nearly the entire project is underground, in two tunnels of 2080 m and 4200 m.

http://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/900-millionen-franken-fuer-8-5-kilometer-autobahn


----------



## MichiH

^^ 900 CHF? 743 million € for 8.5km? When will the works begin?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Hard to tell. The whole A9 project has been delayed by years. The tunnel at Gampel has been 'under construction' since 2005 or so, and from the looks of it, won't be completed before 2020. Considering the geological difficulties along other parts of A9, it could be delayed even more.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Source: https://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=54750


----------



## Coccodrillo

Photos of the construction of the San Bernardino tunnel: http://mediathek-graubuenden.mtgr.ch/pool/25


----------



## Vaud

The Poya bridge in Fribourg will finally be opened next sunday :banana:

News report in french: RTS


----------



## Sunfuns

News report in German for those of us preferring that language: http://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/eine-bruecke-fuer-den-heiligen-nikolaus-1.18401629


----------



## Suburbanist

IS that a 3+1 bridge :dunno:?


----------



## Vaud

^^ it's 3 lanes for cars, 1 towards route de Morat (to the west, i.e. the side of the old city) and 2 towards the other direction. The other lane is reserved for pedestrians and bicycles; it might seem like a waste of space but the authorities were probably afraid of a disproportionate increase in traffic had they arranged it as 2x2, which would have clogged the roads leading to the bridge; route the Morat is 2x2 and so the expected increase of traffic there is calculated at 7% only, but on the other side there are only 1x1 roads and traffic increases are estimated at 14% for route de Berne and 19% for route de Tavel.

Some very nice pics in here: http://www.pontpoyaphotos.ch

by the way, it's the longest cable bridge in Switzerland.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Zug City Tunnel*

There is a tunnel planned with four branches and an underground roundabout in the city of Zug (population 28,000). The aim is to reduce traffic in the central area to a minimum. 

The city of Zug has approved 100 million CHF for the project. The total project cost is 890 million CHF (€ 740 million). This will be funded through;

* 100 million from the city of Zug
* 300 million by raising the cantonal road tax by 25% for a period of 27 years.
* 490 million from the canton of Zug

I doubt if this huge investment is justified in a small city like Zug. On the other hand there don't seem to be any competing cantonal road projects in the small canton of Zug. (Yes, an extension of A4a to A3 would be nice but that's a federal project).


----------



## Suburbanist

Zug is extremely wealthy, I think.


----------



## Kumanovari

ChrisZwolle said:


> New tourist signs in Solothurn.


Aargau new too.


----------



## keber

Suburbanist said:


> Zug is extremely wealthy, I think.


That is exceptionally high cost for just 3-4 km of tunnels - probably they will have just one tube each. Wouldn't be cheaper and more effective to have eastern bypass, even if it was whole in tunnel?


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is a tunnel planned with four branches and an underground roundabout in the city of Zug (population 28,000). The aim is to reduce traffic in the central area to a minimum.
> 
> The city of Zug has approved 100 million CHF for the project. The total project cost is 890 million CHF (€ 740 million). This will be funded through;
> 
> * 100 million from the city of Zug
> * 300 million by raising the cantonal road tax by 25% for a period of 27 years.
> * 490 million from the canton of Zug
> 
> I doubt if this huge investment is justified in a small city like Zug. On the other hand there don't seem to be any competing cantonal road projects in the small canton of Zug. (Yes, an extension of A4a to A3 would be nice but that's a federal project).


Something similar exists in Tromso, Norway. I wonder if there are other underground roundabouts in the world.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is an underground roundabout in Fribourg.


----------



## Coccodrillo

And one in Frauenfeld: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Fraue...rauenfeld&hnear=Frauenfeld,+Turgovia&t=m&z=18

And some more around Norway (and some junctions inside tunnels but without roundabouts).

********************

They want to make a fully or partly pedestrian zone in the city centre, or at leas reduce non local traffic as much as possible. That's why the tunnel ha sso many portals near each other. Anyway Zug is the richest canton, at least compared to its size, and as far I know there aren't any other big cantonal road or rail project.


----------



## F81

There's at least one underground roundabout in Monaco, too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## John Maynard

F81 said:


> There's at least one underground roundabout in Monaco, too.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is called "the Canton roundabout" referring to Swiss Cantons :lol::
http://www.presse.gouv.mc/304/wwwnew.nsf/1909$/F5A7501BB8F66BB7C125778500559036GB?OpenDocument&1GB


----------



## rower2000

italystf said:


> Something similar exists in Tromso, Norway. I wonder if there are other underground roundabouts in the world.


A similar project is in the pre-construction phase in Feldkirch, Austria. The environmental impact assessment is in progress.

http://www.vorarlberg.at/vorarlberg...adttunnelfeldkirch/infoplakatestadttunnel.htm


----------



## earthJoker

There is an underground roundabout in Bern as well.


----------



## postHUMANproject

Westferry Circus, London









_Alex Smith (Aspire Imaging)_


----------



## sotonsi

postHUMANproject said:


> Westferry Circus, London


which also has a roundabout on top.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The opening dates of the upper section of the A9 can be seen here: http://www.a9-vs.ch/eroeffnungsdaten/praesentationanschauen.pdf

Turtmann-Steg, 8.1 km, in 2017 without Riedberg tunnel (a short tunnel that caused some technical problems)

Eyholz tunnel, half of Visp's bypass, should open in 2018 (by that time, Vispertal tunnel, the other half of Visp's bypass, should be closed for refurbishment and final works)

The opening of the remaining section is not in sight, but should be around 25 years after the beginning of the works around 2000.

15.8 km out of 31.8 km, or 49.7%, are in tunnels.


----------



## MichiH

Coccodrillo said:


> The opening dates of the upper section of the A9 can be seen here: http://www.a9-vs.ch/eroeffnungsdaten/praesentationanschauen.pdf
> 
> Eyholz tunnel, half of Visp's bypass, should open in 2018 (by that time, Vispertal tunnel, the other half of Visp's bypass, should be closed for refurbishment and final works)


If I got it right: The eastern part of the bypass will be opened in 2018 (both tubes). The first tube of the western bypass will temporarily be closed afterwards (refurbishment).
What's about the 2nd tube of the western bypass, will it be opened in 2018 too? When will the refurbishment be completed, 202x?


----------



## Coccodrillo

> The eastern _[Eyholz tunnel]_ part of the bypass will be opened in 2018 (both tubes).


Yes, so transit traffic will follow this route afetr leaving the eastern tunnel: https://maps.google.ch/maps?saddr=T...FcpxwgIdEuV3AA&t=h&mra=mift&mrsp=1&sz=15&z=14



> The first tube of the western bypass _[Vispertal tunnel]_ will temporarily be closed afterwards (refurbishment).


Yes (although it may be closed before the opening of the eastern tunnel).

It is already used as a two way tunnel: https://maps.google.ch/maps?saddr=S...;FUNywgIdUt53AA&mra=dme&mrsp=0&sz=14&t=h&z=14 (only for Lausanne-Sion to/from Vispertal/Zermatt traffic, it makes no sense to use this tunnel for east-west traffic)

But it will be converted to the eastbound tube of an Y-shaped double tube tunnel. Boring of the westbound tunnel should have started recently.

Except the two sections I cited in the post above, all the others (including the western bypass tunnel) are said to be opened in 202X, which means nobody knows when.

I read that the existing tube of the Vispertal tunnel will be closed for 18 months, but I don't know what does this mean. Maybe that it will reopen earlier than the first opening of the other tube. If that's the case, I suppose that eastbound the bypass will be fully opened before 2020, but eastbound only half of it.

We will see, this motorway has been promised decades ago and is under construction since 15 years, so every small bit is very welcomed.


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## Sunfuns

Obviously not a high priority or it would have been already finished.


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## OulaL

italystf said:


> Something similar exists in Tromso, Norway. I wonder if there are other underground roundabouts in the world.


Speaking of Norway, both ends of the Hardanger Bridge.


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## John Maynard

Are the roadworks resuming between Steg and Visp? Is the area surrounding the motorway construction has been decontaminated?

For reminder, during the works of A9 in Raron, the biggest mercury-polluted site in Switzerland was discovered; with concentrations up to 3500 mg/kg, the Federal limit by law being of 5 mg/kg (700 times over the norm). This pollution is due to savage rejects of mercury in a canal joining the Rhone, between the 1930's and late 1970's, by the chemical plant Lonza in Visp.
Moreover, the highly-contaminated embankments of the canal were used in large scale in fields as fertilizer, and as backfill in residential areas :wallbash:.

http://www.lenouvelliste.ch/fr/valais/valais/pollution-au-mercure-dans-le-haut-valais-plus-de-700-fois-la-norme-legale-498-1294410

http://www.rts.ch/info/regions/valais/6311818-deux-nouvelles-zones-contaminees-au-mercure-dans-le-haut-valais.html


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## niskogradnja

*Geneva to vote on lake tunnel again*



> Three months after a similar initiative was rejected at the ballot box, voters in canton Geneva look set to decide again whether to build a road tunnel under the lake.
> The committee behind an initiative to construct a four-kilometre lake tunnel near Geneva handed in signatures on Monday to force a local vote which could take place in the next 12 months.
> The road tunnel project, launched by the centre-right Radical Party and centrist Christian Democratic Party, aims to combat chronic traffic congestion in the city centre.
> Initiative supporters claimed the new tunnel would be different from the shorter 1.5-km “Rade” tunnel project, which was turned down by 63% of Geneva voters in September 2014. They said it would link up to the cantonal ring road and Swiss-French motorway network and would be located at the wider part of the lake, east of the city.
> Supporters said the new, longer tunnel would therefore ensure transit traffic didn’t end up crossing the city and snarling up main lake crossing points like the Mont Blanc bridge.
> The tunnel will cost CHF2.7-3.3 billion ($2.67-$3.26 billion) and is not likely to be realised before 2030 at the earliest.
> A positive vote will send a clear signal to the federal authorities in Bern, which are hesitant about financing such a large infrastructure project that they do not consider a priority.
> The question of whether to build a bridge or tunnel in Geneva to help people cross from one side of the lake to the other and ease congestion has been debated for years.
> Prior to last year’s vote, in June 1988, 68% of local voters agreed in principle to a new lake crossing. However, in June 1996, two-thirds of voters rejected plans to build either a tunnel or a bridge across the lake.


http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/geneva-to-vote-on-lake-tunnel-again/41200450


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## Sunfuns

I hope this gets rejected again. By the way if it's approved by local voters does it mean that the city has to pay for it? That's a lot of money even for Geneva.


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## Coccodrillo

Here what does the initiative say:



> *Article unique*
> La Constitution de la République et canton de Genève, du 14 octobre 2012, est modifiée comme suit*:
> 
> *Art. 192A Traversée du Lac (nouveau)*
> 1* Pour lutter contre l’engorgement des voies de communication, renforcer la prospérité de la région et améliorer la qualité de vie, le canton réalise une Traversée du Lac permettant l’achèvement du contournement de Genève.
> 2* Afin d’accélérer sa réalisation, un partenariat avec le secteur privé est envisagé parallèlement au mode de financement prévu par la Confédération.
> 3* L’Etat prend des mesures d’accompagnement. En particulier, il s’appuie sur la Traversée du Lac pour aménager les rives avec les communes concernées, réduire les nuisances dans les zones urbanisées, renforcer l’efficacité des transports publics, favoriser la mobilité douce et créer de nouveaux espaces publics.


It says that the Canton will built a new road connection across the lake (it doesn't specify if a tunnel, a bridge or whatever), that a public-private partnership must be evaluated together with federal financing, and that it will work on urban renewal too (public transport, slow mobility, new public spaces, ...).

It doesn't propose any real financing method, nor a deadline, so it is more a symbolic vote than a real decision to build (or not to build) a cross-lake road.

The initiative might be accepted and the road not built soon, or viceversa.

A map of the hypothetical path can be seen here: http://www.tdg.ch/geneve/actu-genevoise/droite-voter-geneve-traversee-lac/story/20470464


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## g.spinoza

^^ Was it really necessary to amend the constitution of the Canton to build a freaking bridge?


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Was it really necessary to amend the constitution of the Canton to build a freaking bridge?


Isn't that how Swiss direct-democracy works? Any referedum goes in the Constituion as to be binding on the parliament.


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## Coccodrillo

Popular initiatives always propose an amendment to the costitutions (cantonal or federal). Proposed articles are written in the relevant constitution as they are, without modifications, then the government create or alter the various law to regulate and explain the details. But these laws are written by politicians, they aren't directly voted with the initiative. Then, a referendum may be asked against these laws (or against any law decided by the parliament) gathering enough signatures.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I always thought Constitutions were to have only fundamental principles, not every petty decision about specific things... but I guess every country has its own ways...


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## Coccodrillo

To alter federal and cantonal constitutions a referendum is mandatory, for other laws it is not. So writing a principle in the constitutions means that politicians are obliged to organize a vote if they want to alter it (although they not necessarily respect what citizens approve, like this famous road example approved 20 years ago but still not respected).

(anyway, citizens cannot ask for a separate specific new law, they can "only" ask for a new constitutional article or ask to refuse a new law recently approved by the parliament)


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## John Maynard

Coccodrillo said:


> although they not necessarily respect what citizens approve, like this famous road example approved 20 years ago but still not respected


What exactely is not respected in art. 84?
For what I see, already a lot is done to "protect the Alpine region from the negative effects of transit traffic", by directing it in usually faster, flow free, avoiding villages and towns, as well as fragile ecological areas, animals and plants, having many tunnels, A2 motorway.
Transalpine goods traffic is already transported by rail, and an Alpine transit tax for trucks that use the roads has been introduced more than a decade ago, along with heavy promotion of the "rolling highway". And what about the new 59 kilometers Gothard Railway Tunnel, that was built mostly because of this initiative. We must wait until its opening to see further transition from road to rail.
The capacity of the transit routes in the Alpine region was not increased since the law entered in force.
What else could be done, completely forbidden transit trucks from roads?


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## Suburbanist

Semi-off topic question: what happens is an unworkable constitutional amended is passed by ballot in CH, for instance, one requiring all planes to emit noise below 90dB on takeoff at 100m distance from any point on a runway?


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## Coccodrillo

Initiatives against basic human rights (never proposed until now...) are automatically rejected.

I don't know what should legally happen if an accepted initiative proposes something impossible, but it likely happens the same as something not liked by the government is accepted: the government doesn't respect it (like the truck ban on the Alps I cited above).

(NB: in Switzerland, *initiative* = some citizens propose something finding enough signatures and everybody vote about that, *referendum* = the government propose something, then some citizens find enough signatures and everybody vote about that)


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## John Maynard

Coccodrillo said:


> I don't know what should legally happen if an accepted initiative proposes something impossible, but it likely happens the same as something not liked by the government is accepted: the government doesn't respect it (like the truck ban on the Alps I cited above).


For a complete truck ban on major international European North-South axis, there should be a coherent an adequate infrastructure for an alternative form of transportation, as the "rolling highway" piggyback.
Actually, the North-South railway line (old Gotthard line) is a major railroad axis for passengers and freight, both used for regional, intercity, and international traffic. 
I cannot see how we could logically put all the transiting trucks on it, as it already supports heavy traffic > There is simply not enough room for this, and this is why there is still not a total ban on truck transit.
In addition, for what I know, there is no suitable loading-unloading railway station for trucks, nor in Italy, nor in Germany near border areas.

By the way, Swiss trucks must also pay the "Alpine axis truck tax" (Performance-related heavy vehicle charge LSVA), which as you see, isn't exclusively for transiting. As a matter of fact, this tax is not only perceived for Alpine highways, but for all roads in Switzerland (by kilometers), even on plain land.


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## John Maynard

The other thing that could be done in Switzerland, is reducing the passenger railway traffic, and put instead more freight and trucks on rail . This would be coherent, and it would allow to ban all transiting trucks from everywhere: North-South, East-West; even indigenous trucks (except for local shipping). But, Swiss people are too much train-loving nation to allow this to ever happen :lol:.


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## Jeroen669

John Maynard said:


> By the way, Swiss trucks must also pay the "Alpine axis truck tax" (Performance-related heavy vehicle charge LSVA), which as you see, isn't exclusively for transiting. As a matter of fact, this tax is not only perceived for Alpine highways, but for all roads in Switzerland (by kilometers), even on plain land.


The big difference is that Swiss trucks pay per ton by an on-board appliance, whereas foreign trucks pay by their maximum allowed weight (mostly 40 tons), even if they're carrying a very light freight or even empty. This makes a huge difference in transporting costs. 

Also: Swiss trucks are getting priority in case of the truck 'blockings', vehicle checks, bad weather, incidents etc.


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## Coccodrillo

Anyone (not only Swiss registered vehicles) can buy a device to pay the the tax. However, it makes sense only if they enter Switzerland frequently. Trucks without such device declare how much km they have done when they enter and how much when they leave the country, and the tax is calculated on the difference (as said by Jeroen, in this case total allowed weight is considered, not the actual weight).

Trucks with the yellow S on red background have priority, but this is given only to internal traffic (Zürich-Ticino for instance, but not Zürich-Milano or Stuttgart-Ticino). I don't have statistics but I suppose this should mean 20% or less of transalpine trucks.


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## MichiH

*Visp tunnel*



Coccodrillo said:


> all the others (including the western bypass tunnel) are said to be opened in 202X, which means nobody knows when.


Main works of the Tunnel Visp started today. It's announced to be completed by late 2019, see press release (DE/FR).


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## John Maynard

MichiH said:


> Main works of the Tunnel Visp started today. It's announced to be completed by late 2019, see press release (DE/FR).


I hope that there will be no more delays or other major polluted sites discovered :nuts:. 
In fact, A9 motorway from Sierre to Brig was announced to be completed by 200X, after "delays" it became 201X, and now I just wish it won't be 203X :lol:. Just to imagine crossing still at a snail's pace this section, and at foot speed all over Visp, for another long time makes me very angry :bash:.

Moreover, I think it's incredible and very mindless all the measures they took to reduce traffic, they closed all the many 2+1 sections, and lowered the speed to 60 km/h on many places, put many traffic lights and pedestrian crossings (every 20 meters or so in Visp), that despite the motorway still not being opened :wallbash:


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## g.spinoza

Is the a9 going to be extended beyond Brig, or it's just about closing the missing links?


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## John Maynard

g.spinoza said:


> Is the a9 going to be extended beyond Brig, or it's just about closing the missing links?


Nope, A9 is the Simplon highway, therefore it's ending on the Swiss-Italian border in Gondo. Actually, the remaining section u/c is due to close the gap between Sierre and Visp-East/Eyholz, where there is already a small stretch of motorway in service, and an autostrasse to Simplon Pass:

https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.2979232,7.941584,14z?hl=fr

https://www.google.ch/maps/dir/46.2...3137726,7.7470526,12z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0?hl=fr

And don't get fooled by Google Maps, it takes sometimes more than an hour to achieve the 30 kilometers, especially when traffic is nearly stopped in Visp :bash:.

Scheme of the remaining section:


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## g.spinoza

^^ So the autostrasse to the border is already in construction, or is it already an autostrasse?


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## John Maynard

The autostrasse finishes in Ried-Brig. The rest of the road is a Kantonsstrasse (albeit, being part of National Roads III class road), but it's smooth, has large curves, 2+1 sections, many tunnels, bridges and galleries; it's also fast, as you can drive 80 km/h almost the entire route. One may say it's like an autostrasse (though not being it), and is often being called here "mountains highway".
In fact, the mountainous Simplon Pass road is much faster, pleasant and easy go, than the Upper Valais plain land - missing link - main road to access it :nuts:.


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## Rusonaldo




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## Rusonaldo




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## Rusonaldo




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## eeee.

kay: Trucker or tourist? If the latter, I recommend to take the San Bernardino pass next time. Nice curves and scenery.


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## verreme

^^ Those pictures are from the San Bernardino pass.


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## Des

ChrisZwolle said:


> Severe thunderstorms flooded A1 tonight.


Not just A1, some villages in the area were flooded completely as well. One of my friends lives there but he is on holiday and his car is drowned in the underground garage :/


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## earthJoker

verreme said:


> ^^ Those pictures are from the San Bernardino pass.


Did you take the pass road or the tunnel? I don't see pics from either.


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## eeee.

verreme said:


> ^^ Those pictures are from the San Bernardino pass.


Na, the pictures are from the A13. The pass is here:
https://goo.gl/maps/KNJAa


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## eeee.

earthJoker said:


> Did you take the pass road or the tunnel? I don't see pics from either.


Tunnel - at least northwards, that's the last exit:
http://i.imgur.com/Kc3x2Ou.jpg
https://goo.gl/maps/qB2cv


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## acela

Rusonaldo said:


>








Is this the same road?


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## Rusonaldo

*@ eeee.*

Tourist


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## Rusonaldo

By car through Switzerland


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## kasiasmr

*question about new roads open to traffic*

Hi All,

I am doing project about new motorways, expressway sections and local roads in some countries and in Switzerland too. I don't know any webpages in Switzerland where i can find current informations about new roads there. 
I am searching for informations about roads which have been open to traffic since 2013 to present and new projects/roads with “under construction” status which will be open in future. 
I don’t know any official web-pages about infrastructure in those countries so I would like to ask about your help to complete information about new roads with source link of project, pictures, approximate opening date to traffic and maps if it is possible to locate it. Any known information will be really helpful


Thanks in advance!


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## eeee.

Have you checked this thread? I think it's a good start:


MichiH said:


> *Switzerland*
> 
> *A5:* Neuchatel Serrieres North – Neuchatel Serrieres South 1.7km (April 2008 to 10th March 2014) – project – map
> *A16:* Bure – Porrentruy-East 8.8km (2007 to 21st August 2014) [1st c/w] – project – map
> *A16:* Delemont-East – Choindez ?km (? to Late 2016) [1st c/w] – project – map
> *A16:* Court – Loveresse ?km (? to Late 2016) [1st c/w] – project – map
> *A5:* Biel-Port – Biel-East 4.9km (December 2007 to 2017) – project – map
> *A9:* Leuk/Susten-East – Steg/Gampel-West ~10km (2004 to 2017) – project – map
> *A9:* Visp-South – Visp-East ~5km (? to 2018) – project – map
> *A9:* Visp-West – Visp-South ~4km (? to Late 2019) [2nd c/w] – project – map
> *A9:* Steg/Gampel-West – Steg/Gampel-East ~1.5km (? to >= 2020) – project – map



Website of the Federal Roads Office where you can find a lot of information:
http://www.astra.admin.ch/index.html?lang=en


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## brick84

*The tunnel of San Gottardo*












http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/...-video-in-galleria-e-non-solo-7670/immagine-6


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## luca scandelli

Province


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## eeee.

Swiss road accident statistics for 2014:
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/news/01/nip_detail.html?gnpID=2015-164









_(Federal Statistics Office (BFS, 23.07.2015))_

Fatal casualties:
Road: 243
Railways: 28 (2 passengers)
Aviation: 2 (1 passenger)
Shipping: 0

Casualties per 1 mln inhabitants:
Sweden: 27
UK: 28
Switzerland: 33
Spain: 36
Norway: 37
Germany: 41
France: 51
Austria: 54
Italy: 57
Poland: 87
USA: 103


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## GYN1997

i'm curious... is there any toll-charging road here in Switzerland?


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## Des

GYN1997 said:


> i'm curious... is there any toll-charging road here in Switzerland?


You need a vignet for all highways. Some passes and tunnels charge an additional toll.


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## eeee.

Passes? Which one? Only tunnels as far as I know (Munt la Schera and Great St Bernard).


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## Suburbanist

Is there a minimum threshold of # of cantons that must pass a initiative, or just the general voting counts? Any threshold of minimum % of registered voters?


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## ChrisZwolle

So far 24 cantons have voted in favor, 1 against (Genève) and 1 hasn't reported the results yet (Vaud). In total 58% voted in favor so far.

edit: 24 out of 26 cantons voted in favor.


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## Christian_AT

Suburbanist said:


> Is there a minimum threshold of # of cantons that must pass a initiative, or just the general voting counts? Any threshold of minimum % of registered voters?


change the constitution needs both: kantons(voter marjority in region) + voter summary nationwide

questions if a new law is good only voter nationwide


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## Coccodrillo

John Maynard said:


> *Definitely, a proper road tunnel and access route should be built between Canton of Valais and Bern* and/or Uri/Ticino.


I think any new federal road project in (to) Ticino in the next 10-15 years is unlikely, following today's vote. There is still no permanent road funding, and politically in Ticino we have received 3 billions. It will be hard to obtain more in Ticino, without a new funding system.

Ticino would have benefitted more from filling the A13 gap between Bellinzona and Locarno, IMHO.

Generally speaking, if a road funding system isn't approved, I don't see new federal road projects in sight.



Suburbanist said:


> If Switzerland wanted to enforce the cap on truck transalpine traffic, would it even have the rail capacity, right now, to shift this traffic to freight rail? Would it have with the new Gotthard tunnel operating from Dec. this year?
> 
> I'm under the impression only a fully new freight railway from Chiasso to Basel with a branch to Schaffenhausen via Zürich would accomplish this.
> 
> I also think the mass adoption of electrical cars over next 20 years will reduce the pollution complaints about car traffic in the valleys and part of the noise complaints as well.


The capacity would be available from 2020, as until then there will be refurbishment works going on in many rail tunnels.

But this is just an academic question. Our politicians does not want to respect the Alpen Initiative law, so from a road point of view the Alpen Initiative does not exist (it resulted in some temporary rail subsidies, though).

Cleaner vehicles are a welcome thing, but still, there is the pollution and damage generated by any human activity. Electric/hybrid vehicles will reduce local pollution, but not overall, and useless transports (Italian bottled water to France and viceversa, to give a banal example) will continue to be overall a damage.



Suburbanist said:


> Is there a minimum threshold of # of cantons that must pass a initiative, or just the general voting counts? Any threshold of minimum % of registered voters?


There is no minimum treshold, and sometimes objects are approved/rejected with less than 40% of citizens voting. This time around 63% has voted, which is considered very high.

There are two types of votes: initiatives and referendums. Both involve a new law, the difference is that an initiative is proposed by a group of citizens, in a referendum the law is already proposed by the government and some citizens want to cancel it. In the first case to pass there must be both a majority of voters and of cantons, in the second just the majority of voters. The question on the second tube was a referendum.


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## Suburbanist

It is true that the production of vehicles, electricity and transportation of things like bottled water do contribute to pollution elsewhere. However, the central argument against more road capacity through the Alps has always been about the unique characteristics of narrow valleys and how they trap air pollution and how noise affects the surrounding areas. 

Electric road vehicles substantially reduce noise and eliminate point-of-use air pollution. In a scenario where most vehicles driving around in city/area are electric-powered, road vehicles stop being a problem related to air pollution altogether. There could still be arguments around regarding congestion, space etc. ,especially within cities, but the air flow in valleys couldn't be pulled as a card by opponents of infrastructure any longer.

IIRC, in the distant pass, countries that had extensive use of coal-powered steam trains had some nascent NIMBY opposition to new railways or stations through urban areas because of the pollution these trains produced. In Switzerland, of course, electrification solved the problems and many lines were built electric from the start due to steep grades.


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## Vaud

I wonder why people in Argovie o Soleure have voted massively in favour of the new tunnel.

At least the rejection in Geneva and Vaud shows that there's a part of the country that feels dissatisfied with the current priorities of the confederation in terms of infrastructure expenditure.


----------



## Corvinus

Vaud said:


> I wonder why people in Argovie o Soleure have voted massively in favour of the new tunnel.
> 
> At least the rejection in Geneva and Vaud shows that there's a part of the country that feels dissatisfied with the current priorities of the confederation in terms of infrastructure expenditure.


Ticino + Italy holidaymakers and Swiss of Italian origin with strong connections to Italy, I would say.

GE + VD population has a naturally less interest in good road connection between TI and the North since they are simply less dependent on it, given their geographical location. 

Interesting to see that JU almost managed an even 50/50 with 50.18% yes and 49.82% no.


----------



## John Maynard

http://files.newsnetz.ch/bildlegende//191962/2645582_pic_970x641.jpg


----------



## Nexis

Some recent San Bernardino Pass videos from astey highways


*CH / A13 Driveway to the San Bernardino Tunnel*







*CH / A13 San Bernardino Tunnel - Chur / Part 1*


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## belerophon

If i am allowed to say something in special and in general: 

I did read about big road and rail projects (such as Gotthard Base Tunel) for a long time. I remember that the amount of freight to be transported by rail is a very high percentage compared to other countries, but also compared to austria, which has a big share in alpine region also. So the formal acceptance but real regret of the alpeninitiative should not cover, that the policy about this is different. Also the freight transport by rail is steadily growing, and projects are funded, whilst in germany the impact of rail is low and there are already bottlenecks. A friend of mine works as dispatcher and administrator for copetitors of germans half-public DB company. He told that not only the connections to harbours, but also the Elbe valley are heavily congested such, that there is a kind of traffic jam. Trains are waiting in Dresden because all the way to Prague is full. 

I did visit Switzerland 2 weeks ago. The Vignette system at first offended me. 40Sfr if you stay only four days is much for me (you can only buy an annual one there is no monthly). But overall its quite nice. Everyone knows prices are high for germans there. But i also profit from low prices if i do my many travels to the east. So compared to a swiss loan this 40Sfr per year are really low on a annual basis. There are so many tunnels which need to be managed properly. For that i really accept to pay. 

There would be much money to earn. Weekly 20Sfr, monthly 60Sfr and yearly 200Sfr would be affordable and worth to mention and could help building a bit more. To hinder transport of italian water to france, well thats something government could do with several instruments. Taxes for freight should differ if something is essential or not. It should make a difference if such things are needed in swiss or transported through, if capable there also or not, etc.

I think swiss motorways are missing important parts (Schaffhausen) and have big bottlenecks. But if you compare to the terrain, they did good work. Also driving was very nice feeling, because of the 120kph limit. As the difference between slowest and fastest cars is smaller you could easily swim in the stream. Everyone knows, i would prefer a general limit in germany also. That must not be 120kph like the green-red govt in Baden-Württember tries to implement in some spots. But it could be 120, 140, 160 dependent to the road. So this trip encouraged my thinking about this.

Generally i don't know much more. Nature is nice, and to get people there to see it should not destroy it. But that southern swiss is cut in pieces by snow half a year because of missing tunnels at grimsel, furka and susten passes for example was a bit strange to me. I did not visit restaurants, carried almost every piece of food from germany to cook at a friends house. So i don't know much about food and people. In tourist spots everyone was very friendly and helpful. That it's quite impossible to be accepted as a stranger i did only hear from my friend. One got Bluecard in Germany, and could have applied for citizenship, but went to the famous EMPA in Zürich. There it's much more unlikely to get such things if at all. An other friend working at an nice restaurant with famous two michelin stars came back to saxony after some 8 years, because he was never accepted by the people there. And politics, well thats something which has its advantages and disadvantages. 

I know its a bit OT, but if i read the discussions, i always like to say: Did you ever go there? Do you know the situation of the country in all facettes? Discussion needs simplification. But often we just hear: build roads, we want them...

I drove the following motorways and main streets ("Hauptstrassen"): Schaffhausen-Zürich, Zürich-Basel, Zürich-Bern-Interlaken-Luzern-Zürich, Zürich-(Wetzikon)-Sargans-St.Margarethen. 

Were there any news about the missing piece of motorway between Uster and A52/A53 Hinwil?


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## Coccodrillo

Proposals for a toll (in addition to the vignette) are coming out again, if possible with a toll on all transalpine roads and not only the Gotthard road tunnel.

However Ticino does not want any toll, as no canton is linked with the others by toll roads and no one wants to be the first. There are not toll roads in Switzerland, except the Great St Bernhard tunnel, the Munt La Schera tunnel, train shuttles, ferries and some rural touristic roads. The only link on a main and trafficked road which is tolled is the Lötschberg shuttle, which carries around 1.5 million vehicles a year (an average of 4100 a day, with more than the double on peak days). Its ticket costs around 25 CHF.

The second tube has been approved, but not yet financed. Works will not start before 2020 at the earliest. Two TBMs will be used, and the existing portals reused. However, the existing safety tunnel will be retained, and will likely gain a new route with new portals at its two extremes.

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/fahrt-durch-die-alpen-soll-extra-kosten/story/10067898

http://www.derbund.ch/schweiz/wer-durch-den-gotthard-faehrt-soll-auch-dafuer-zahlen/story/24445696

http://www.derbund.ch/schweiz/standard/im-tunnelblick-gefangen/story/25323446


----------



## Vaud

John Maynard said:


> http://files.newsnetz.ch/bildlegende//191962/2645582_pic_970x641.jpg


As proven by the referendum, I bet a vast majority of genevan and vaudoise people would be in favour of that if they spared them (us) from financing the project and instead we could spend the money in some useful infrastructure for our regions. A third track all the way from Geneva to Lausanne with some quadruple track sections would be cool, as would the new m3 in Lausanne and finishing the pending tram projects in Geneva or the loop railway track towards the airport.

Certainly much more useful for us. The comic is nonetheless quite insulting considering that both Geneva and Vaud are net contributors to the common funds for other cantons. Maybe we should stop contributing.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Didn't the canton rejected a new railway tunnel in the city?


----------



## John Maynard

Vaud said:


> As proven by the referendum, I bet a vast majority of genevan and vaudoise people would be in favour of that if they spared them (us) from financing the project and instead we could spend the money in some useful infrastructure for our regions. A third track all the way from Geneva to Lausanne with some quadruple track sections would be cool, as would the new m3 in Lausanne and finishing the pending tram projects in Geneva or the loop railway track towards the airport.
> 
> Certainly much more useful for us. The comic is nonetheless quite insulting considering that both Geneva and Vaud are net contributors to the common funds for other cantons. Maybe we should stop contributing.


You forgot the most important: the third motorway lane from Lausanne to Geneva and Yverdon to Lausanne that received over 14'000 "votes" in favor in a petition, already in 2008. There is not only rail in life! We are still waiting :colbert:.


----------



## Nexis

*CH / A13 San Bernerdino Tunnel - Chur / Part 2*


----------



## Suburbanist

Is there a reason for some sections with ultra wide lanes on A16 near Bellinzona? I never understood those. It is not just merging lanes, mind you. You can see some of them in first Astey's S. Bernardino video.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ You mean A13 near Mesocco? They're great for passing slow trucks. I was a bit surprised to see that too, I don't recall seeing those wide lanes elsewhere in Switzerland. It also gives truckers more room to correct for errors or bad driving conditions (snow). Traffic on A13 has to gain over 1000 meters of altitude over only 11 km (as the crow flies, more along the road).


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## Coccodrillo

They are a sort of an unmarked suicide lane, that is, a central space to allow overtakings in both directions. The section with this setup at the beginning of the climb (Soazza-Mesocco) has recently been modified in 2+1 lanes with a narrow barrier between the two directions.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A16*

The final segment of A16 between Court and Loveresse is scheduled to open on 5 December 2016.

http://www.arcinfo.ch/articles/regi...urassien-de-l-a16-inaugure-en-decembre-516414


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## Coccodrillo

Next motorway openings:



> Eröffnungstermine zwischen 2016 und 2019
> 
> A9 Sierre – Gampel: Teileröffnung 2016
> A16 Delémont Est – Grenze JU/BE: Eröffnung 2016
> A28 Umfahrung Küblis: Eröffnung 2016
> A5 Biel Ost – Biel Süd: Eröffnung 2017
> A9 Gampel – Brig Glis: Teileröffnung 2017
> A16 Court – Tavannes: Eröffnung 2017


For A9 in 2016, it should be from there (http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/46.30852/7.65396) to the next exit in Gampel. Traffic will flow through Susten until the 4 km Pfynwald tunnel between there and Sierre is opened in the next decade (maybe).

I don't know what they mean with "A9 Gampel – Brig Glis: Teileröffnung (partial opening) 2017". But it could mean all the A9 will be completed, with the exception of the Pfynwald, Riedberg and Visp tunnels. Eyholz tunnel, the eastern half of the Visp bypass section, might however finally open. The Riedberg tunnel is the short tunnel between the two half-junctions in Gampel-Steg.

Source: https://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=61095


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## Suburbanist

I've used my Dutch card in France and Italy with more digit spaces for PIN, no problem, press enter after typing.


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## Coccodrillo

The Gotthard Pass has been reopened today, photos here: http://www.cdt.ch/ticino/cantone/155702/riapre-il-passo-del-san-gottardo


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## ChrisZwolle

Seems like an average opening for a 2000+ m mountain pass, right? Most open in May or early June, depending on snow and avalanche conditions.


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## Coccodrillo

It's the average time for the Gotthard. Altitude doesn't count, but avalanche risk does. The Lukmanier is not much lower but it is usually always open, because there is no (not much) risk of avalanches (but it is closed to vehicles heavier than 3,5 t in winter). And the Julier and Bernina are higher, but always open.

The last ones are usually Nufenen, Grimsel and Susten, where it might snow also late (even in July, but not much).

Alternatives also matter. Usually if there is a road tunnel or a train shuttle, there is less pressure to open it early.


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## eeee.

While we're at it:
On the Albula pass road two cars were buried by avalanches yesterday.

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/vermischtes/Lawinen-verschuetten-zwei-Autos-am-Albulapass/story/15386958


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## Sunfuns

Umbrail pass, which is the highest of them all in Switzerland, is also now open. I'm hoping to drive over it to Bormio next weekend.


----------



## g.spinoza

Sunfuns said:


> Umbrail pass, which is the highest of them all in Switzerland, is also now open. I'm hoping to drive over it to Bormio next weekend.


Passo Stelvio is still closed though.


----------



## Sunfuns

g.spinoza said:


> Passo Stelvio is still closed though.


I know, but it should be possible to reach Bormio without going to the top of Stelvio pass which is even higher. Otherwise it would be pointless to open Umbrail since there is nowhere else to drive to on that road.


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## g.spinoza

Not sure, AFAIR the winter closure of Stelvio is just above Bagni di Bormio, way before the junction with Umbrail.


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## Sunfuns

If that's the case we'll have to go via Livigno instead. Hopefully there will be some way to find out beforehand...


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## g.spinoza

Sunfuns said:


> If that's the case we'll have to go via Livigno instead. Hopefully there will be some way to find out beforehand...


I will post the news as soon as I got it.


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## Coccodrillo

The short northbound Stalvedro tunnel (~310 m) is being widened so to have a shoulder lane. I don't know if it is wide as a normal one, or if it is narrower like shoulder lanes. It is the last tunnel before the Gotthard coming from the south.

There are many nice spots to photograph the A2 from the train, if you are quick enough to shot at the right moment (and if you are lucky, you might find one of the rare trains with openable windows).

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...p=18641231,,,&X=153263.00&Y=691003.00&zoom=11


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## g.spinoza

Sunfuns said:


> If that's the case we'll have to go via Livigno instead. Hopefully there will be some way to find out beforehand...


According to this webpage, Stelvio is closed only on the Südtirol side.


----------



## Sunfuns

g.spinoza said:


> According to this webpage, Stelvio is closed only on the Südtirol side.


Thanks, that's good news. No intention of driving to South Tirol this time.


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## Suburbanist

Stelvio is quite unique in that it is an Alpine mountain pass with 3, not 2, access. The Grimselpass is somehow like that.


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## ChrisZwolle

Are there estimates how much truck traffic through the Gotthard will be reduced now that the base tunnel enters its operation phase? Could it also attract goods traffic from the Brenner corridor?

Present-day truck volumes through the Gotthard road tunnel are exceptionally low for a major between between such large population centers. On other similar corridors truck volumes quickly reach 10,000 or even 15,000 per day, but the Gotthard route carries only 2,500 - 3,000 trucks per day.


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## Corvinus

Bad news for Swiss road infrastructure funding: the "milking cow" referendum, aiming at using all revenue from petroleum taxation exclusively for road infrastructure, resulted in only 29.2% "yes" votes as per now:

http://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/volksabstimmung-vom-5-juni-die-milchkuh-initiative-auf-einen-blick-ld.18763 

In the current system, only 50% of gasoline taxes go into road infrastructure, the other half is flowing into the general budget. Thus, there is a cross-financing of public transport by private vehicle users.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think something should change, but making the fuel tax a dedicated tax for road infrastructure is unfortunately unrealistic, almost no country in western Europe consideres the fuel tax a 'user fee' for roads. 

Apparently the fuel tax in Switzerland is good for a revenue of 9 billion CHF per year, while current expenditures on the national road system is less than 2 billion CHF. So if it was accepted, the road budget would more than quadruple, they don't even have projects lined up for that kind of money.


----------



## Sunfuns

Don't fix what is not broken... Currently both Swiss roads and public transport is in excellent shape.


----------



## Suburbanist

The problem is that more freeways are needed in Switzerland, not that the existing ones are badly maintained.


----------



## eeee.

It's not closed for the season. Just due to current weather conditions.


----------



## Suburbanist

Where is this located?
source: http://www.srf.ch/var/storage/images/


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## sotonsi

That's the A53 from the massive roundabout at the A52.


----------



## eeee.

Link:
https://s.geo.admin.ch/6f3d06fd93


----------



## Coccodrillo

The 2.3 km A13 tunnel in Roveredo (GR) on the A13 will be opened tomorrow. Yesterday the public was able to visit the new tunnel before opening, in the links below there are some photos. The old alignment will be mostly demolished, there are no plans to reuse it as a local road. The whole project (which also include two bridge and open section, totalling around 4 km) costed around 360 million CHF, and works lasted for 8 years. Planning started around 30 to 40 years ago.

Location:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/46.2355/9.1256

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...mp=18641231,,,&X=121649.52&Y=729637.66&zoom=7

http://www.ticinonews.ch/ticino/326380/roveredo-si-inaugura-la-nuova-circonvallazione

http://www.cdt.ch/svizzera/cronaca/166068/presentata-alla-popolazione-la-nuova-galleria


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## [atomic]

^ is it 1+1?
They could have moved the rail line onto the old road but if you look at streetview and osm it seems like it was dismantled in 2014


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## Coccodrillo

The whole pass section is 1+1, with some parts 2+1, so yes, in the new tunnel 1+1 is enough. The old section through the village was also 1+1. As the tunnel was built to remove the road from the village, using the new alignment for northbound traffic only and the village's alignment for southbound isn't realistic.

The railway lost its passenger traffic already around 1972, but freight traffic continued until 2003 and some tourist trains (making ~4 trips a day but only ~20 days a year) ran until mid-2014. It has since been dismantled, as Roveredo wanted to build on the site of the former autostrasse and railway (which were parallel) and as the railway was run by a railfan club, with no money and capacity to fight with Roveredo against the closure or to build a new railway. IMHO they lost one of the few tourist attractions of the valley, but they seem happy with that. I posted some photos of that line in the railway subforum.


----------



## italystf

Coccodrillo said:


> The whole pass section is 1+1, with some parts 2+1, so yes, in the new tunnel 1+1 is enough. The old section through the village was also 1+1. As the tunnel was built to remove the road from the village, using the new alignment for northbound traffic only and the village's alignment for southbound isn't realistic.


But the rest of A13 between Bellinzona (A2) and Mesocco (start of the climb to San Bernardino) is a full motorway, so that 1+1 tunnel creates a sort of gap.


----------



## verreme

Coccodrillo said:


> The 2.3 km A13 tunnel in Roveredo (GR) on the A13 will be opened tomorrow. Yesterday the public was able to visit the new tunnel before opening, in the links below there are some photos. The old alignment will be mostly demolished, there are no plans to reuse it as a local road. The whole project (which also include two bridge and open section, totalling around 4 km) costed around 360 million CHF, and works lasted for 8 years. Planning started around 30 to 40 years ago.
> 
> Location:
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/46.2355/9.1256
> 
> https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...mp=18641231,,,&X=121649.52&Y=729637.66&zoom=7


40 years of planning to build a two-lane expressway that replaces a two-lane expressway. I don't want to criticize anything since I guess there must be strong reasons for the old road to be replaced, but this sounds bizarre to me.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They almost built a twin-tube tunnel. The north tube is smaller (escape tube). So the additional cost to have turned it into a full-standard two-lane tube would've been limited. As the tunnel indeed links two 4-lane segments, this is nothing short of bizarre.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> They almost built a twin-tube tunnel. The north tube is smaller (escape tube). So the additional cost to have turned it into a full-standard two-lane tube would've been limited. As the tunnel indeed links two 4-lane segments, this is nothing short of bizarre.


Indeed. It won't have been much more expensive to build a 4-lanes double-bore tunnel.
This is not even a cross-Alps tunnel, so the 'increase of capacity' forbidden by Swiss constitutionand by Convention of Alps is not an issue there.


----------



## pccvspw999

We can also argument that the 4-lane stretch from Roveredo and Soazza links 2 2-lane segments. At the end the total capacity of the road is limited by the last 2-lane segment up to the tunnel, and a twin-tube tunnel would have been oversized anyway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, it's true that the two-lane setup wouldn't cause acute congestion problems, the average daily traffic is 13,000 vehicles per day and a two-lane road can handle that kind of traffic. 

But in this case they're spending hundreds millions of francs on what is almost a twin-tube tunnel. Twin-tube tunnels are always safer than single tube tunnels, especially with an elevated - yet not congested - traffic volume as A13 has.


----------



## niskogradnja

verreme said:


> 40 years of planning to build a two-lane expressway that replaces a two-lane expressway. I don't want to criticize anything since I guess there must be strong reasons for the old road to be replaced, but this sounds bizarre to me.


It is bizzare, and many things here are. For example Switzerland, one of the richest countries in the world has a serious shortage of appartements.They want to exit nuclear power, but don't want wind turbines and so on.

The canton of Wallis is the less developed, but the motorway through it is also being built for many decades. I mean where's the problem? build the ****en infrastructure. Geneve is drowning in its traffic congestion but they only opress the motorists more and more.


----------



## pccvspw999

ChrisZwolle said:


> Well, it's true that the two-lane setup wouldn't cause acute congestion problems, the average daily traffic is 13,000 vehicles per day and a two-lane road can handle that kind of traffic.
> 
> But in this case they're spending hundreds millions of francs on what is almost a twin-tube tunnel. Twin-tube tunnels are always safer than single tube tunnels, especially with an elevated - yet not congested - traffic volume as A13 has.



"Almost", but not completely. It's not only digging a second tube which is an expense, but also maintainance costs of a full operational carriageway instead of an excape tunnel.
I don't know what was the approval procedure that led to the construction, but it doesn't seem to me completely wrong what has been decided.
I travel that road a couple of times a year, and of course I would have preferred a twin tunnel, but aren't my taxes which have been spent.


----------



## italystf

Swiss A13 links Milan and Munich. It feels strange to imagine that, driving between two multi-million-inhabitants metro areas in Western Europe, you'll encounter a long 1+1 stretch.
However I realized that a full motorway across the San Bernardino would be extremely challenging, if not impossible, due to terrain (it would require an extremely long base tunnel).


----------



## MichiH

pccvspw999 said:


> It's not only digging a second tube which is an expense, but also maintainance costs of a full operational carriageway instead of an excape tunnel.


Exactly but having only one tube is more expensive because any future tunnel renovation works have to be done while traffic is driving through the tunnel or through the village. The old A13 alignment through the village will be demolished soon. Having just one full tube is bad for traffic and(!) for the inhabitants of the village.


----------



## pccvspw999

MichiH said:


> Exactly but having only one tube is more expensive because any future tunnel renovation works have to be done while traffic is driving through the tunnel or through the village. The old A13 alignment through the village will be demolished soon. Having just one full tube is bad for traffic and(!) for the inhabitants of the village.


Don't You think that these aspects have been properly evaluated during the development? Maybe in 30-40 years they plan to complete the second tube, leaving the first one just for emergency without great renovations. 30-40 years of saved money, and inhabitans wealth.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Political decision making is not necessarily the same as a sound evaluation of pros and cons. Given the inadequacy to develop, expand or fund roads in Switzerland, this is not very surprising.

It's astounding how Switzerland is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, but can't come up with even basic funding of roads. Traffic volumes are increasing fast, the amount of kilometers driven on the motorways has doubled since 1990 but almost nothing has been built since, especially not in high-volume areas.


----------



## MichiH

pccvspw999 said:


> Don't You think that these aspects have been properly evaluated during the development?


I've googled and couldn't find any info why you've decised to build one tube only.



> Maybe in 30-40 years they plan to complete the second tube, leaving the first one just for emergency without great renovations. 30-40 years of saved money, and inhabitans wealth.


I don't talk about a big renovation but about any little maintenance happening many times per year. Having two tubes, it would be easy to close one lane for some hours, days or weeks. The old A13 will be demolished. A pedestrian precinct and a parking garage will be built there by 2020. The next exit to the west is in Bellinzona if there's a detour via H13 because of maintenance works.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's interesting that there are so many different fonts in developed countries. I mean, you'd think these were thoroughly tested and evaluated before (and after) implementation, yet there are so many different fonts, some of them are very different from another. Which make it hard to believe they all came out as the best possible font.


----------



## OulaL

sotonsi said:


> 'Transport', invented for use in the UK, is also used in Ireland, Greece, Cyprus and Portugal. (UK, Ireland and Portugal also use the sister-font 'Motorway' font as well).


Ireland however uses a different font for Irish text, and Greek has its own alphabet altogether. Not even Greece and Cyprus look the same, Cyprus uses all-caps for Greek text.


----------



## OulaL

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's interesting that there are so many different fonts in developed countries. I mean, you'd think these were thoroughly tested and evaluated before (and after) implementation, yet there are so many different fonts, some of them are very different from another. Which make it hard to believe they all came out as the best possible font.


There is even an ongoing dispute, as seen on this forum as well as between different countries, on whether or not to use all-caps.


----------



## sotonsi

OulaL said:


> Ireland however uses a different font for Irish text


Sure. IIRC, they italicised Transport and made a couple of characters (most notably the 'A') a bit more Gaelic looking and added a few accented letters - it's not really a different font, but a variant of. And obviously, every sign outside the Gaeltacht has the English in upper case Transport that is completely and utterly unchanged.


> and Greek has its own alphabet altogether.


But also puts Latin transliteration on every direction sign.


----------



## Suburbanist

There are other standarization priorities regarding road transport in Europe. 

The top one would be a common framework for free-flow road tolling.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's interesting that there are so many different fonts in developed countries. I mean, you'd think these were thoroughly tested and evaluated before (and after) implementation, yet there are so many different fonts, some of them are very different from another. Which make it hard to believe they all came out as the best possible font.


Maybe there is no such thing as "the best possible font".


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*NAF*

Several referendums are held today in Switzerland, one of them includes the creation of a national road fund (_Nationalstrassen- und Agglomerationsverkehrs-Fonds_ / NAF).

It should create a budget of approximately 3 billion CHF per year. The national road system would be expanded by 400 kilometers (transferring cantonal roads to the national road system) and bottlenecks will be dealt with.

The NAF will succeed the Infrastructure Fund. It would be funded by the fuel tax supplmental fee and the vignette revenue. In addition, new sources of funding will flow to the NAF, the car tax and 10% of the fuel tax revenue, which are going to the general fund presently. In addition, electric cars will pay some kind of fees from 2020 and if needed, the fuel tax could be increased from 30 to 34 rappen / liter. 

An SRF poll shows it has a good chance of succeeding, with 62% in favor and only 28% not in favor (10% undecided). 

A map of cantonal roads to become part of the national road network (thick pink lines) and bottleneck relieving (thin pink lines).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The NAF has been approved with a clear yes.


----------



## Suburbanist

Sadly it didn't get rid of limitations of AlpTransit to allow a new tunnel between Visp and Thun


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ What?

***************

A new tunnel will probably be built near Airolo (southern portal of the Gotthard tunnel) to protect the village from noise, give locals some flat terrain, and dump the excavated material. Airolo junction will be modified, according to the drawing slowing traffic going on the pass road by building roundabouts and building more curved ramps (necessary because of the new tunnel). The length of the tunnel is not yet decided, but it will be around 1 km.

Location: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...mp=18641231,,,&X=153594.60&Y=690058.59&zoom=9

A first draft:










Very little more infos on http://www4.ti.ch/sala-stampa/comunicati-stampa/cartella-stampa/?idCartella=152350 (in Italian).


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ What?


The major gap in the Swiss road network is a road tunnel between Valais and Bern cantons. A road tunnel, not an expensive rail shuttle.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Rawil project was abandoned way before the Lötschberg base tunnel was approved. A new car shuttle was proposed in the Lötschberg base tunnel as an alternative to the Rawil Autostrasse, but this latetr wasn't abandoned because of the LBT. The Alpen Initiative laws (which the government does not respect, by the way) forbid more road capacity through the Simplon, not the Lötschberg.

It is just that nobody there seems to want a road between Wallis-Valais and Bern, that's all. I nevern read recent (after 1990) articles, nor popular initiatives, nor parliamentary acts, nothing, demanding such road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Brünig Pass*

An upgrade of the A8 across the Brünig Pass is not feasible with base tunnels, a study concluded.

https://www.astra.admin.ch/astra/de...teilungen/anzeige-meldungen.msg-id-65665.html

A 5.8 kilometer long base tunnel is projected to cost 520 million CHF, a 3.8 kilometer tunnel is projected to cost 400 million CHF. That is considered too much for the traffic volume (7200 vehicles per day).

While understandable, if it was in Norway, a tunnel would've certainly been built. The Norwegians construct tunnels like this for less than 1000 vehicles per day.


----------



## hammersklavier

^^ That's what having oil money'll do to ya.


----------



## Suburbanist

Maybe they need to find uranium in CH...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A5 Biel/Bienne*

The eastern part of the bypass of Biel/Bienne (A5) is planned to open on 27 October 2017: http://www.journaldujura.ch/nouvelles-en-ligne/region/ouverture-en-automne


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Zürich - Winterthur*

The Cantonal Council of Zürich has voted in favor of the Glattalautobahn and the A1 expansion to Winterthur.

The Glattalautobahn is a bypass of the existing A1 from the Zürich-Nord interchange to the Brüttisellen interchange, while A1 will be expanded to eight lanes from there to Winterthur.

The Glattalautobahn was approved with 121-52 votes and the A1 expansion was approved with 107-63 votes, so a clear majority for both projects.

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/zuerich/story/Neue-Autobahn-und-acht-Spuren-fuer-die-A1-26811175


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A2 Gotthard Tunnel*

SRF reports that the traffic congestion at the Gotthard Tunnel going south was the worst ever for a Good Friday. The queue was 14 kilometers long, leading to a 2.5 hour delay. 

Traffic congestion actually persisted throughout the night, it started around 6 a.m. on Thursday. The shortest delay was measured around 3:30 a.m. when it was 45 minutes, and then increased to 2.5 hours on Friday.

http://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/rekordstau-am-karfreitag


----------



## webeagle12

ChrisZwolle said:


> SRF reports that the traffic congestion at the Gotthard Tunnel going south was the worst ever for a Good Friday. The queue was 14 kilometers long, leading to a 2.5 hour delay.
> 
> Traffic congestion actually persisted throughout the night, it started around 6 a.m. on Thursday. The shortest delay was measured around 3:30 a.m. when it was 45 minutes, and then increased to 2.5 hours on Friday.
> 
> http://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/rekordstau-am-karfreitag


You probably better off taking route 2 in that case :lol:


----------



## Corvinus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Traffic congestion actually persisted throughout the night, it started around 6 a.m. on Thursday. The shortest delay was measured around 3:30 a.m. when it was 45 minutes, and then increased to 2.5 hours on Friday.
> 
> http://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/rekordstau-am-karfreitag


Reader comment:



> Die Autoschlange steht nun still //
> weil jeder durch den Gotthard will. //
> Es sagen etwa fünf von sieben //
> "Wär' ich doch Zuhaus' geblieben".


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*AdBlue manipulation*

The Swiss authorities are going to increase truck controls in regards to AdBlue manipulation. AdBlue is an additive that is sprayed in the exhaust system of a heavy vehicle (some passenger cars also use it). It cleans the exhaust of NOx, thereby complying to recent euro emission standards. 

Mostly eastern European trucking companies manipulate the system, fooling the AdBlue system is operational while in reality it is not functional, increasing pollution and in some countries they pay less tolls than they should (i.e. fraud). 

They worked out a quick scan for the common truck types to quickly determine if AdBlue manipulation devices are installed in the truck. They checked 'several hundred' trucks and detected over 100 instances of AdBlue manipulation. 

https://www.astra.admin.ch/astra/de...teilungen/anzeige-meldungen.msg-id-66432.html

Other countries are also aware of this, Norway also increased their inspections for AdBlue manipulation in recent months and detected a large number of violators. If more countries do this, it will become less profitable to manipulate AdBlue systems. The chances of getting caught will need to be increased, but in some countries the volume of trucks on motorways is just too great to effectively enforce it, as the inspections are relatively time-consuming.

https://twitter.com/VegvesenOst/status/845008860855353351/photo/1


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Smoke on the water*

The A9 viaduct at Montreux.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Canton Council of Zürich has approved two motorway projects today.

The missing link of A53 between Uster and Hinwil was approved 93:45, it will be partially built underground. The missing link is approximately 9 kilometers long and has been planned since the 1970s.

The extension of A51 as a 'Mini Autobahn' north of Zürich has been approved 103:59. It will expand the existing two-lane road to four lanes over a distance of 2.5 km to the A50 roundabout. It runs through a forest. The current two-lane road carries 27,000 vehicles per day.

http://www.baublatt.ch/aktuelles/ne...s-licht-fuer-ausbauprojekte-im-kanton-zuerich


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The number of days of congestion at the top bottlenecks in Switzerland. As you can see A1/A4 around Zürich has congestion almost every single day. Also notice the considerable increase in congestion at Lausanne. 











The strongest relative traffic growth in 2016 was at the San Bernardino Tunnel.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A3 Nordtangente Basel*

I found this map detailing the opening years of the A3 'Nordtangente' in Basel. Construction on the 3.2 kilometer route started in 1994, it was completed 14 years later. 87% is underground. They also built a double-deck bridge across the Rhine. It is not used by many tourists (most use A2 to Germany) so this is a relatively unknown section of motorway except for those in the region.


----------



## belerophon

I was in Swiss again, came back today. Again i am amazed that they do construction without to much hindering the traffic. Everything flows very well compared with good ol germany. 

Of course the Northern Ring of Zurich is an exception.... Last Night there was a traffic jam on the direction east. Something happened between ZH-Affoltern and Seebach. The Traffic jam went back into the Gubris tunnel, which then was closed. The police led all cars out at ZH-Affoltern, and i could see, that they managed the cars further east backwards to this exit also. But there is no news about it. Does anyone can provide me some?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A9*

The plan approval for the 8.5 kilometer long section of A9 through the Pfynwald between Sierre and Leuk/Susten will be put to public comment tomorrow. 

The Pfynwald section is the last of the A9 sections in Wallis/Valais to have its final plans approved. The construction cost is a staggering 1.2 billion CHF. It will mostly be built underground.

Source: https://www.vs.ch/de/highlights/-/a...mode=view&p_p_col_id=column-2&p_p_col_count=1


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Hauptstrasse 3*

A large rockslide in Bregaglia (Graubünden) has blocked Hauptstrasse 3 from St. Moritz to Chiavenna (Italy). The village of Bondo has been evacuated. I once spent a vacation here, I remember there were a number of observation posts that keeps track of any movement on the mountain.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The debris came from a lateral river. Here a map: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...p=18641231,,,&X=133734.77&Y=763019.92&zoom=11

The bypass road through the tunnel is still closed, traffic is rerouted through the old one lane road with alternate traffic.

There were no injuries or deaths in the village itself, but 8 hikers which were on the mountain are missing, and possibly dead.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A5 Biel/Bienne*

The eastern leg of the A5 bypass of Biel/Bienne opened to traffic today. It is a 5 kilometer section from the Brüggmoos interchange to the Bözingenfeld interchange. It runs in two tunnels, the 2480 m long Langholz Tunnel and the 1460 meter long Büttenberg Tunnel.




























Photos by SRF: https://www.srf.ch/news/regional/be...el-eroeffnet-den-ostast-der-autobahnumfahrung


----------



## steve5

*Bütschwil bypass, 3.8 km, CHF 200 Mio., 2014 - 2020*

Website: www.umfahrungbuetschwil.ch










Tunnel Engi, 500m










more photos: https://www.umfahrungbuetschwil.ch/bildergalerie-2/tunnel-engi
_____

Brücke Loch, 51.5m










more photos: https://www.umfahrungbuetschwil.ch/bildergalerie-2/bruecke-loch
_____

Brücke Dorfbach, 88m










more photos: https://www.umfahrungbuetschwil.ch/bildergalerie-2/bruecke-dorfbach
_____

Tunnel Bahnhof, 480m










more photos: https://www.umfahrungbuetschwil.ch/bildergalerie-2/tunnel-bahnhof
_____

Brücke Thur, 67m










more photos: https://www.umfahrungbuetschwil.ch/bildergalerie-2/bruecke-thur


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Verzweigung Brüggmoos*

Google Earth has June 2017 imagery of the new Brüggmoos interchange in Biel/Bienne.


----------



## Verso

Nice. Are there plans to widen the A6 into a 4-lane motorway between Biel and Lyss? It makes sense now.


----------



## steve5

*A1 Ausbau Nordumfahrung Zürich / A1 expansion northern bypass Zurich*

Website: www.nordumfahrung.ch

Drone flight, 24.08.2017:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Zürich*

The first explosions for the third tube at the Gubrist Tunnel in Zürich have started today: http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/zuerich/story/15317330









https://www.nzz.ch/zuerich/aktuell/die-erste-sprengung-ist-erfolgt-ld.1330726

The Gubrist Tunnel is part of the northern bypass of Zürich, which is the most congested spot in Switzerland. A1 will be expanded to six lanes. The third tube is planned to be completed by 2022, followed by a renovation of the existing two tubes, which will be completed by 2025.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A4 Schaffhausen*



ChrisZwolle said:


> A4 in the northern city of Schaffhausen will be expanded to a four lane motorway. ASTRA has approved its plans, which will now move into review and consultation phase.
> 
> The plan is to expand the Fäsenstaub Tunnel to two tubes, and turn the present two-lane A4 north of the tunnel into a double-deck motorway (it probably will replace the current double-deck structure, the wording isn't too clear on it).
> 
> The Schaffhausen-Nord exit will be eliminated, as a compensation, the Mutzentäli interchange will be reconstructed for access to Schaffhausen.
> 
> The project has a budget of 473 million CHF (€ 439 million, or € 125 million per kilometer). It is expected to begin construction in 2025, which will take 8-9 years.
> 
> Presently some 30,000 vehicles per day drive through the single-tube Fäsenstaub Tunnel.
> 
> http://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/nationals...eite-tunnelroehre-fuer-schaffhausen-ld.131250
> 
> http://www.cholfirsttunnel.ch/images/medien/20161128_Medienmitteilung_Generelles_Projekt.pdf


The Federal Council has now approved the project of A4 in Schaffhausen. 

Bei der Einfahrt in den Fäsenstaubtunnel in Schaffhausen Süd sind eine Verbreiterung der bestehenden Autobahnbrücke über die Mühlenstrasse auf zwei Spuren je Fahrtrichtung und ein Überleitungstunnel zur neuen Tunnelröhre vorgesehen. Anschliessend wird die neue Tunnelröhre parallel zum bestehenden Fäsenstaubtunnel geführt. Aufgrund der äusserst engen Platzverhältnisse zwischen Wohngebiet und SBB-Gleisen im Abschnitt der Galerie Schönenberg werden die Fahrspuren der neu vierspurigen A4 doppelstöckig geführt: Der Verkehr in Richtung Schaffhausen-Süd fährt auf der unteren Ebene, der Verkehr in Richtung Thayngen/Bargen auf der oberen.​
The start of construction has been pushed back from 2025 to 2030 though, and they expect a construction time of 8-9 years, so with no further delays, it won't be completed until 2038 or 2039.

https://www.astra.admin.ch/astra/de...teilungen/anzeige-meldungen.msg-id-69148.html


----------



## Vaud

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A9 viaduct at Montreux.


It would never be built if proposed nowadays as it is a real eyesore, but it offers spectacular views of the lake when one drives on it.


----------



## g.spinoza

The Gotthard Tunnel is closed since this morning due to a deadly car-truck crash, which damaged the infrastructure itself.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/collis...orarily-closes-gotthard-road-tunnel-/43752088


----------



## Coccodrillo

This is how will look like the area south of the Gotthard tunnel in the future. A new tunnel will be built (~1 km long) by building a box around the motorway and covering it with spoil from the second Gotthard tube. This is done both to reduce noise, create more flat space near the village of Airolo and find a way do store excavated rock.

A new junction will be built, both to reduce visual impact of the existing bridges and permit the construction of the new tunnel while avoiding lane merging underground.

The previous idea was to dump the excavated rock in a deposit site near Biasca already used for the Gotthard base tunnel, partly recycling the infrastructure used by that project.

http://www.tio.ch/ticino/attualita/1230858/verso-la-copertura-dell-a2--chiesti-50-milioni-di-franchi

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...18641231,,,&E=2690225.49&N=1153451.86&zoom=10


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Bundesrat has decided to put the 'Ausbauschritt 2019' in motion. Parliamant will have to approve funding to start this plan. This will finance 4 road projects for the tune of 2.2 billion CHF. In total 13.5 billion CHF of road projects is planned until 2030. They are mapped here:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A slide has blocked A2 north of the Gotthard Tunnel.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*traffic safety*

2017 recorded 230 traffic fatalities, an increase of 14 over 2016, but still the second-lowest ever.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Here you can see the effect how Google Maps doesn't take all delays on your route into account. According to a route plot from Basel to Lugano there is almost no delays with Google Maps, while in reality there is a 1.5 hour waiting time at the Gotthard Tunnel.










Google Maps will send you right into this massive traffic jam. Here you can see how Google shows almost no delays until the very last moment:


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A9:* Visp-South – Visp-East ~5km (? to 2018) – project – map


To be opened on 13th April 2018.

https://www.a9-vs.ch/index.php?id=5
https://www.blick.ch/news/wirtschaf...bahn-im-walliser-eyholz-tunnel-id8129782.html


----------



## MichiH

^^ I've tried to find more info about A9.

https://www.a9-vs.ch/

The section to be opened is the south-east bypass of Visp. The first tube of the south-west bypass is already in service for many years, the 2nd tube was expected to be opened by late 2019 (any updated info?).



MichiH said:


> *A9:* Visp-West – Visp-South ~4km (? to Late 2019) [2nd c/w] – project – map


Construction works for the Tunnel Riedberg (537m/565m) have been resumed in 2015. The latest ASTRA project overview (map on page 5) now indicates a 2022 completion date. Works began in 2004:

*A9:* Steg/Gampel-West – Steg/Gampel-East ~1.5km (2004 to 2022) – project – map


The section just east of the tunnel seems to be u/c according to Google satellite. Dunno when works have been started. ASTRA indicates a 2021 opening date - right before the tunnel opening. I guess that the section ends at the future (partial) interchange west of Raron. The section length would be about 3km:

*A9:* Steg/Gampel-East – Raron 3km (? to 2021) – project – map


The construction of the Tunnel Raron (1460m) officially began on 12th March 2018. The construction period is 6 years. The ASTRA project overview indicates different completion dates for this 8km segment: 2024 and 2025. I guess there might be partial openings?

*A9:* Raron – Visp-West 5km (March 2018 to 2025) – project – map


The last gap between Sierre and Susten (8km) is not yet u/c and planned to be completed by 2028:

*A9:* Sierre – Leuk/Susten-East 8.0km (? to 2028) – project – map


----------



## Corvinus

Time for some roadpics from Switzerland. Following is a recent drive from Lucerne to Berne on main road 10 (along Entlebuch, Escholzmatt, Langnau, Worb).
Long post (40 photos)!


1. Lucerne outskirts, we follow the blue (non-motorway) sign for Berne











2.











3.











4. Countryside begins











5. Shortly afterwards, a section of _Autostrasse _(motor traffic way) starts - speed limit 100km/h, no level crossings, slow vehicles banned











6. 











7. 











8. 











9. 











10. After about 10 kms, it becomes a simple road again, where the default speed limit og 80km/h applies











11. 











12. One of the numerous villages crossed by main road 10.











13. A couple of hairpin turns, but these are the only ones on the way











14. 











15.











16. Another village crossed











17.











18.











19. Leaving Entlebuch, Escholzmatt coming next - most rural part of Lucerne canton











20.











21.











22.











23.











24. Emmental region welcome sign - entering Canton of Bern.











25.











26. Kambly chocolate factory to the left of the road ahead











27.











28.











29.











30.











31.











32.











33.











34.











35. Almost there - Worb is 5-6 kms from Bern only











36. Last piece of drive is on motorway A6











37. Bern city welcome sign











38. Exit ahead











39.











40. Here we are!


----------



## Uppsala

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RdK51Igeqc

This is from the James Bond movie Goldfinger. Its really classic.

But can anyone tell me where they are? There is a railway there and its a narrow gage railway. But where?


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ It’s the Furka Pass road.


----------



## Uppsala

pccvspw999 said:


> ^^ It’s the Furka Pass road.



Is that road similar today?


----------



## eeee.

Uppsala said:


> Is that road similar today?


Partly.

Compare:
Video 00:13 and https://goo.gl/maps/NFQhAw9jVtz (Bonus: glacier)

And the road to Realp is expanded (Video 00:19). The other paved roads in the video look pretty much the same today.


----------



## Uppsala

eeee. said:


> Partly.
> 
> Compare:
> Video 00:13 and https://goo.gl/maps/NFQhAw9jVtz (Bonus: glacier)
> 
> And the road to Realp is expanded (Video 00:19). The other paved roads in the video look pretty much the same today.



Thank you! How is the part with the railway look like now?


----------



## eeee.

I guess you mean this part here:
https://goo.gl/maps/QGhHbWTjmyT2

Looks similar.


----------



## Uppsala

^^
Thank you!


----------



## pccvspw999

^^And concerning the gas filling station, where Bond leaves the girl, it is now Hotel Aurora, here.

The station was dismissed in 2014, and it's now the main entrance of the hotel.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Visp*

The Eyholz Tunnel (4225 m) opened to traffic today. It is part of the Visp Bypass. The Tunnel Visp has been delayed again, they're now planning an opening in 2021/2022. That date used to be 2019.

The new traffic situation around Visp:


----------



## Sunfuns

The end situation is clear, but what's the point of taking this tunnel now? It ends on some small streets south of Visp. Unless you want to actually go directly south of Visp at that point probably just as fast to take Kantonstrasse parallel to the railway...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Traffic to Zermatt / Saas Fee valleys can now bypass Visp from both directions. But yes, east-west traffic on the A9 corridor doesn't have much benefit from the newly opened Eyholz Tunnel, though you can bypass the town center. That relief will come when the entire bypass will be open to traffic, which is delayed from 2019 to 2021/2022.


----------



## Coccodrillo

I don't understand from OSM and aerial photos if one can access the Eyholz tunnel on the western side coming from the north. Apparently not, it is only possible by reversing using the two-exit rondabout slightly south (the only reson that roundabout was built, since it doesn't offer other options than going straight or reversign).

https://www.google.ch/maps/dir/Sion...0x478f6a8e9ebf7ab9:0xc3ee9cc4f4d64ef0!1m0!3e0

So for eastbound transit traffic the new tunnel is quite useless, while westbound (Simplon>Brig>Sion>Lausanne) it might be useful, maybe not much shorter in time than throught the town but at least one can run at a more constant speed (avoiding urban traffic). I wonder how road signs are pointing throught traffic now.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A bridge across the Sihlsee near Einsiedeln (Schwyz).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Nordumfahrung Zürich*

An update video of the A1 expansion along the north side of Zürich:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A13*

Ticino has presented plans to build a 6.5 kilometer long tunnel that would connect Locarno to A2. The projected cost is a staggering 1.45 billion CHF. According to SRF there is broad support for the project, even environmental organizations support it.

https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/kam...planen-milliarden-tunnel-in-der-magadinoebene


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Gotthard Tunnel*

TCS reports extreme traffic congestion at the Gotthard Tunnel southbound, with as of this post (10:15 a.m.) a delay of 4 hours, the queue is 25 kilometers long. 

Traffic congestion started exceptionally early, and may have occurred throughout the night. The first tweet of TCS at 4:30 a.m. already reported a delay of an hour.

Waiting time at the Gotthard Tunnel:
* 4:30 a.m.: 1 hour
* 5:10 a.m.: 2 hours
* 5.30 a.m.: 2.5 hours
* 6.30 a.m.: 3 hours
* 10:10 a.m.: 4 hours

I don't recall having seen delays that long last summer, when delays were mostly in the 2 - 2.5 hour range.

edit: The San Bernardino Tunnel is closed for a week due to a bus fire in the tunnel yesterday. That explains why so much more traffic uses the Gotthard Tunnel. The queue starts at Buochs, that's even before the Seelisberg Tunnel.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The traffic jam at the Gotthard Tunnel reached 28 kilometers, tied with the 1999 record. The waiting time was reported as 4-5 hours, though some people on Twitter said it took them 6 to 8 hours.


----------



## Verso

Why on earth have they constructed a roundabout on the A6 expressway by Biel?

https://goo.gl/maps/Uy3pUt5Hhkn


----------



## MichiH

^^ I think it was a temporary roundabout during construction phase only:

http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=47.1212181&lon=7.2726263&z=18&l=5&m=o

You can see it on Google Satellite only, not on GM or OSM.

btw: A6 remains 2-laned to the east only.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

According to historical imagery in Google Earth, that roundabout has existed since at least 2009 and even 2003 imagery suggests there may have been a roundabout in the past.


----------



## Verso

There was no roundabout there between 2000 and 2008, I drove there many times.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This 2003 imagery shows A6 going over what looks like a former roundabout:


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Ticino has presented plans to build a 6.5 kilometer long tunnel that would connect Locarno to A2. The projected cost is a staggering 1.45 billion CHF.



Note that it is planned with a single lane per direction (except the first 2 km on the eastern side, which are partly in a separate 1 km cut and cover tunnel). However as a a single bore tunnel is considered unsafe, there will be two tubes with two full width lanes (3.75 m IIRC) but in which only one lane will be used. This is to allow two-way traffic during maintenance.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ This cracks me out every time. Spending money to build a double-bore tunnel just to castrate them by employing only one lane. And it's not about Switzerland, it's getting widespread (Frejus and Col di Tenda second bores)...


----------



## Coccodrillo

In this case at least there are two full lanes. The second Fréjus tunnel was initially planned as a 4 m diametre rescue tunnel, then enlarged to an 8 m rescue tunnel, then a single lane running tunnel. The single lane Tenda tunnels are not a capacity limit but 4 lanes would be useful for overtakings.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

If they're going to spend that much money on a twin-tube tunnel, a four lane tunnel would make much more sense, especially considering it is designed to take on traffic from a road that carries 30,000 vehicles per day. So it would be heavily used, making a four lane road more appropriate.

I don't understand why they underdesign the infrastructure so much in Switzerland. The Westumfahrung Zürich (A3/A4) reached maximum capacity within a few years of opening. The expansion of A1 around Zürich will likely also reach maximum capacity soon after completion. It's like they don't want to face reality.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A2 Basel*

A2 northbound doesn't have sufficient capacity at the German border in Basel. Truck queues are common, and a parking lot off A2 is now used for 120 truck parking spaces. This area belongs to SBB Cargo, which wants to build a multimodal terminal at that location. So the truck parking needs to be moved. 

The plan is to use the right lane on the Grenzbrücke as a parking area for trucks entering the customs area. The bridge has three lanes, so the left two lanes could still be used by other traffic. However parking trucks that close to live traffic is dangerous.

https://bazonline.ch/basel/stadt/basel-droht-noch-mehr-lastwagenstau/story/17820022


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A3 Basel*

A 53 meter high chimney for the tunnel of A3 in Basel (Nordtangente) will be demolished. Approved in 1991 and built in 1995, it was never put into service because vehicle exhaust improved materially during that time, so the chimney wasn't necessary to keep pollution in the tunnel at acceptable levels.

https://www.tagblatt.ch/newsticker/...kamin-wird-abgebrochen-nie-benutzt-ld.1029435


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Silvaplana bypass has been opened today, it includes a 750 m tunnel with a 8.5% slope.

The black and yellow vehicle used for the opening ceremony dates from the beginning of the planning stage.

https://www.suedostschweiz.ch/ereig...rung-silvaplana-eroeffnet-das-sind-die-bilder

https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=Silvaplana#map=17/46.46274/9.79625

OSM has not been corrected yet, AFAIK the old road (which for a short stretch had alternate traffic) cannot be accessed anymore from the Julier/Güglia/Giulia pass, maybe with the exception of post buses.

**********

60 millions will be used to modernise the car shuttles.

http://www.ferrovie.it/portale/articoli/7570

The article says that all services except Furka and Oberalp operate without subsidies for operations, but also that fuel tax money is used to finance assets (infrastructure and trains).

The Vereina tunnel was approved instead of a guaranteed winter opening of the Flüela pass, the Lötschberg shuttle replaces the Rawil autostrasse (the rail tunnel itself was opened in 1913 with no dedicated road shuttle).

As far I remember traffic figures are 1.6 million vehicles a year at the Lötschberg, 400.000 Vereina, 200.000 Oberalp, much less the others, although the article gives a generic total of 2 millions.


----------



## Corvinus

The Federal Office of Roads (Astra) is evaluating the construction of a double-deck motorway in the Limmat valley (canton of Zurich). This would limit or even reduce the number of traffic jam hours on A1 motorway between Zurich and Bern. Since parts of the existing stretch go through marshland, it would be difficult to widen it, which is why building a second deck above it is considered. 

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/Bund-prueft-doppelstoeckige-Autobahn-12953905


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A fire in the Tunnel Monte Piottino on A2 between Faido and Quinto. Some sources say it is the Gotthard Tunnel, but this is actually some 15 km south of the Gotthard Tunnel.


----------



## MichiH

Costs of Swiss traffic jams in 2010 and 2015:

It was 1.9 billion CHF in 2015, +7% (1.66 billion €). Costs due to the congestion time loss are 69% (+14%), costs due to damages are about 24%. The other costs are for climatic, environment and energy.

Press releases: DE, FR, IT


----------



## HarlingenHardest

*Wattwil bypass, 3.5 km, CHF 124 Mio., 2018 - 2022*

Last week there was a so called 'Spatenstich' (symbolic start of the roadworks) when it comes to another missing link in the T16/Toggenburgstrasse. We're talking about Wattwil bypass part 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgnXrRBhZE4

Goal is to finish this project in autumn 2022. It's the last bypass in a row, between Wil and Nesslau. In 4 years it should be possible to drive from Wil to Neu St. Johann bypassing all places en route through Toggenbug and a part of the Thur valley. 

More info (in German): 

https://www.tagblatt.ch/ostschweiz/strassenbau-die-geschichte-der-toggenburger-umfahrungen-ist-lang-und-beschwerlich-ld.1049674

https://www.tagblatt.ch/ostschweiz/toggenburg/die-neue-strasse-kostet-124-millionen-ld.1048906










EDIT: Go back to page 160 for more info when it comes to Bütschwil bypass...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Ausbauschritt 2019*

The _Bundesrat_ (Federal Council) has decided on the _Ausbauschritt 2019_. It is a step in the planning of the national road expansion horizon up to 2030. 

They have allocated 2.3 billion CHF (€ 2 billion) for three projects to be shovel-ready over the next 4 years;

* A1 Crissier project at Lausanne (316 million CHF)
* A2 Luzern Bypass, including southern extension to Hergiswil and A14 to Buchrain (1470 million CHF)
* H20 Le Locle bypass. (481 million CHF)

The Le Locle bypass is notable, it's a huge investment to bypass a town of 10,000 people in the Jura Mountains. Almost the entire bypass consists of a 4 kilometer single tube tunnel. It is part of national road 20. 

https://www.astra.admin.ch/astra/de...teilungen/anzeige-meldungen.msg-id-72151.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Genève carpool lane*

A carpool lane was introduced at the Thônex-Vallard border crossing near Genève. They call it a European first, though that is not correct. The Netherlands built a reversible carpool lane on A1 east of Amsterdam in 1993 and Norway also has carpool lanes dating back to at least 2001. I believe there are some in Spain as well.










>> https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/genf-testet-car-pool-lane-zu-zweit-unterwegs-gegen-den-stau


----------



## General Maximus

There are some along the A86 near Paris. The M62 near Huddersfield has one as well...


----------



## General Maximus

*Completion of Ring Road around Basel*

The Swiss Confederation and the cantons of Basel and Basel-Land want to complete the motorway ring around Basel
A Westring tunnel is to connect the existing trunk line with the northern tangent in the future.










https://www.srf.ch/news/regional/ba...MBnRVepxDbFvQHbBn-fmbTnAiRlVRpFwlv2JXLcwYCEBI


----------



## MichiH

^^ To be built... 2030? 2040?

The article already reports that "construction will begin 2025 at the earliest" for the new Rhine tunnel which is much more advanced in planning...


----------



## General Maximus

Yes. It'd probably take them this long to convince residents that they're better off somewhere else, before construction begins.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*e-vignette*

The federal council (Bundesrat) has decided to introduce an e-vignette. According to the ASTRA website, it will be implemented in 2023 at the earliest and remains an annual vignette as it is today. 

It was planned to entirely replace the sticker by an e-vignette, but there were a lot of concerns about automatic surveillance and privacy, so the e-vignette will be voluntary for now.

A proposal to introduce a more expensive annual vignette of 100 CHF and introduce shorter term vignettes was defeated in a referendum in 2013.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Seems to be (exactly) the Austrian way. You can purchase it online! :banana:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Bern*

The _Bundesrat_ (Federal Council) has approved plans for the eight lane expansion of A1 north of Bern. A circa 6 km section of A1 will be expanded from 2x3 to 2x4 lanes between Bern-Wankdorf and Schönbühl. Construction is planned to start in 2027 with a construction time of 6 years. The projected cost is 474 million CHF.

>> https://www.srf.ch/news/regional/be...oenbuehl-und-wankdorf-gibt-es-mehr-fahrspuren

>> https://www.astra.admin.ch/astra/de...teilungen/anzeige-meldungen.msg-id-73158.html


----------



## General Maximus

*Basel*

To avoid congestion on the eastern ring of Basel, as refurbishing is taking place; as well as the construction of the new tunnel under the river Rhein, motorists are now encouraged to divert via Germany, using the German A98 at Rheinfelden. It is expected that, although the route is longer, journey times will be reduced significantly.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Unforunately, the route cannot be used if coming from France. It was planned to extend A98 west of A5 but it was scrapped with the last German demand plan (BVWP). Long distance traffic can leave A35 at Mulhouse and go via French A36 and German A5.


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## General Maximus

You can still go via France. Come off the A35 at St Louis and Huningue, come and see me in Huningue for a coffee, and then cross the bridge into Weil am Rhein and straight onto the A5.


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## MichiH

^^ :lol: Been there last Wednesday morning (A36.fr-A35.fr-A3.ch).

I just wanted to point out that a "full" northern Basel motorway bypass was still planned earlier this century...


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## General Maximus

I was in England last Wednesday. But do come and see me next time.


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## ChrisZwolle

It's kind of weird that the A98 extension was scrapped entirely. It's only 1 kilometer on German soil. If they ever want to revive this project, they can't start procedures until it is adopted in the next road plan, post 2030?


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## MichiH

^^ There's always the UB option "Unvorhersehbarer Bedarf" (unforeseeable demand).

It was further demand in the 2003 demand plan. The demand plan projects are submitted by the state and it is lead by Greens now. That's why it was scrapped.


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## General Maximus

Where were they going to extend it to? A35 at St Louis? There's not that much Germany left west of A5... None at all at Weil am Rhein.


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## MichiH

^^ It was scrapped by French before. In 2011.


> Geplant war auch der vierstreifige Neubau einer Rheinbrücke zwischen der deutsch-französischen Grenze bei Märkt und dem Autobahndreieck Weil am Rhein, um die A 98 mit dem französischen Autobahnnetz zu verknüpfen. Die geplante Trasse auf französischem Gebiet, die jahrelang freigehalten war, wurde 2011 aus den Raumordnungsplänen gestrichen. Eine angedachte Verbindung in Richtung Westen entfiel hiermit.
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesautobahn_98#Geschichte


I'd love to get more info about the French section but I don't know the words I should search for. I guess there might be some info on http://routes.wikia.com?


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's kind of weird that the A98 extension was scrapped entirely. It's only 1 kilometer on German soil.


Sorry? I think it's only approx. 200m in Germany, however, a new Rhine bridge is needed, approx. one km apart from the next one. OK, Rhine is not very wide here, but even so, building a bridge is more complex thatn "one hundred meters of motorway" ;-)
Or did I misunterstand something?


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes, the actual distance to the riverside is less, but they would need to build the main carriageways of A98 through the interchange, bringing the construction distance closer to 1 km.


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## Coccodrillo

The "sectoral plan" (I don't know the English translation) for roads can be seen here: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=en&t...18641231,,,,&E=2687797.26&N=1203872.88&zoom=6

This shows planned federal road projects (not those for cantonal roads which are soon to be transferred to the federal government, like A20 Neuchâtel-Le Locle or A13 Bellinzona-Locarno - on these the vignette will soon be required), many of which not financed yet.

A clic on a project shows some details about it, in the local language (usually...).

******

A recently added project is a third lane Lugano-Mendrisio (junction to Chiasso-Milano and Gaggiolo-Varese). The plan is for a third tube for the 1.7 km tunnel on the west side of the lake, enlargment of the 0.6 km eastern tunnel and shoulder running elsewhere.

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=en&t...18641231,,,,&E=2717185.84&N=1090400.69&zoom=7

These bridges have been rebuilt around ten years ago, without the space for a third lane, so a widening will also mean wasting recently spent money: https://www.google.ch/maps/@45.9072...4!1sUhhjIwuAAZKjzV6JItoTLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The noise barriers at Bissone (near the lake) are also recent and will have to be demolished.

The latter this thing is built the better, there are just two already crowded 2 lane urban roads leading into Lugano city centre, and roads to other areas aren't wide either. There are basically no roads with more than one lane per direction besides the motorway. A lot of traffic comes from cross-border commuters, which want to go mostly to the city centre or along a few valleys, to places not far from railway stations, so better carry commuters by public transport instead.

******

The same thing is available for railways: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...18641231,,,,&E=2687434.43&N=1203781.53&zoom=6


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Interesting. I wasn't aware they planned a full realignment of A1 west of Lausanne. They were talking about the Crissier bottleneck earlier, but the text wasn't too clear about the exact plans...


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## Coccodrillo

Street running of local railways (not tramways) on just one side of the road were common but they have almost disappeared. Road traffic has to avoid trains by using the lane in the opposite direction. This is one of those: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejH7JVQeulc

Some of the remaining ones:

Lausanne VD: https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.5283...15.135801&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656 (will be replaced by a rail tunnel in a couple of years)

Chur GR: https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.8480...219.76463&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656 and Le Prese GR: https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.2917...=73.02074&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656 (they will stay like this forever)

Zürich ZH: https://www.google.ch/maps/@47.3879...4!1sjd2CEtUJcZgmKWGRV-5JJQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (only a few freight trains a day)

Montbovon FR: https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.4870...=154.9437&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656 (it will remain for the time being)

Orbe VD: https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.7214...247.84944&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656 (freight trains only, no longer used as the industry serving using it has recently been closed - a rail curiosity is that the overhead was energized at 750 V DC, not 15 kV 16.7 Hz AC as the main rail network)


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## ChrisZwolle

*Zürich*

Apparently there are still plans to construct the inner city sections of A1/A3 through Zürich (Also known as the Ypsilon project).


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## ChrisZwolle

The federal council (_Bundesrat_) wants a massive expansion of the Swiss motorway network. The busy intercity routes should all be expanded to six lanes, metro area motorway should have six lanes as well and they want some new motorways too. 

>> https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/grossausbau-der-strassen-bundesrat-will-autobahnen-mit-sechs-spuren


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## MichiH

^^ It's reported that there's "no time schedule" though. I read about "short/mid-term projects" which are planned for 2030+. I guess these projects on the map might be mostly built 2050+ if ever


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## ChrisZwolle

A bus burned out in the Schallberg Tunnel near Brig yesterday. It is part of the main road across the Simplon Pass.


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## Coccodrillo

Average daily traffic in 2017 on some transalpine roads. Given the big differences along the year the AADT doesn't tell much.

Novena/NUfenen Pass: 1.558 August
Gotthard Tunnel: 11.305 January - 25.276 August
Gotthard Pass: 1.927 October, 6.084 July (in 2016)
Lucomagno Campra: 173 December - 1.340 August (on the way to Lukmanier Pass - it might count traffic to a local cross-country skiing centre, though)
San Bernardino Tunnel: 3.912 January - 12.208 August

Other notable figures for the Gotthard Pass are in the 250 to 1250 range in November the years it was opened, except in 2001 when there was a fire in the tunnel and it was possible to keep the pass open longer: 4.753 in November and 3.782 in December. In these two months the San Bernardino tunnel went from 3.200-3.600 to 5.500-6.500, and there was also some traffic on the Gotthard train shuttle which was reactivated again after 20 years.

Source: http://www.oasi.ti.ch/web/catasti/traffico-diagrammi.html

Statistics of the *annual* average in 2013.

Grand St Bernard Tunnel: AADT 1.805, peak day 6.020 on Saturday 27.07.2013 (it might consider also the pass)
Simplon Pass in Gondo (near the border): AADT 2.648, peak day 7.684 on Sunday 12.05.2013
Kandergrund (on the way to the Lötschberg shuttle): 6.223, peak day 13.716 on Saturday 16.02.2013
Castasegna (border on the way to the Maloja Pass): 4.019, peak day 7.994
Bernina: 2.008, peal day 5.909
Ofenpass: 1.571, peak day 4.674 on Saturday 27.07.2013
Umbrail: 425, peak day 1.315

Source: http://www.portal-stat.admin.ch/sasvz/index.html

*****************

Between 2018 and 2022 the Lötschberg tunnel will be renovated, so the car shuttles will be severely limited (only one shuttle per hour on some days).

https://www.bls.ch/-/media/bls/pdf/uebrige-pdfs/autoverlad/reistips-autoverlad-loetschberg-en.pdf


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> A bus burned out in the Schallberg Tunnel near Brig yesterday. It is part of the main road across the Simplon Pass.


Is it still open? I may be driving there soon.


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## Coccodrillo

The road is open but forbidden to trucks with trailers because of snow.

To the north the Lötschberg shuttle does not run because of avalanche risk in Goppenstein. The road from Gampel to Goppenstein and beyond is closed, and passenger trains skip Goppenstein station, so the Lötschental is isolated.

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...=18641231,,,&E=2624354.17&N=1136362.86&zoom=6


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## Suburbanist

Cant they use the base tunnel for shuttle service?


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## Coccodrillo

No as there are no loading ramps north of it, and anyway it has a too low capacity as it is mainly single track.

Actually tomorrow they should run a few shuttles between Kandersteg and Brig by using the Simplon loading ramp until the railway remains open, but their capacity will be very low. This is the timetable:

Departure times Kandersteg

06:30 / 08:15 / 10:00 / 12:30

Departure times Brig

07:25 / 09:10 / 10:50


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## Coccodrillo

The Lötschberg shuttle carries on average 1.2 million "vehicles" a year, to be compared to 1.3 million cars on the Mont Blanc and 1.0 million on the Fréjus. That would be 3.300 a day but as there are big variations on routes like this, AADT doesn't tell much.

I don't know if this 1.2 million refers only to cars, to private vehicles (including motorcycles), or to all types of vehicles. However only smaller buses and trucks can use this shuttle, so their number is low. The truck limits are 12 m in length and 28 t in weight (the height limit is likely around 3.5 m but I'm not sure).

Maximum capacity is 7 trains per hour and direction thus around 500 cars. The basic price varies around 27-30 CHF according to the day.


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## Coccodrillo

Plans and renderings of the propsoed A13 extension can be found here:

https://www4.ti.ch/sala-stampa/comunicati-stampa/cartella-stampa/?idCartella=175682

Two long tunnels are planned, 1.2 and 6.4 km. The longer one would have one running lane and one shoulder lane, each 3.9 m wide.

The bridge over Ticino river will only have a 3.2 m shoulder other than the 3.9 running lane. This is a smart way to make construction companies happy when politicians will want to widen that road.

A previous proposal which ran above ground in the plain was refused by cantonal referendum around 15 years ago, partly because NIMBYsm and partly because those who don't travel frequently in a certain place usually vote against something they don't need.

(it is usally called "A2-A13 link", but in fact it will be part of A13, not A2)


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## g.spinoza

^^ It seems quite absurd.
From the map you can draw a straight line between Riazzino and Bellinzona sud without encountering anything significant, no tunnels required, just a slightly longer bridge over Ticino.


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## Coccodrillo

As I have already said, it is planned to cover the A2 in Airolo (roughly there) mainly to store the spoil from the second Gotthard tunnel, with noise protection and more space for the village as a side effect.

Now there is another proposal to build three tunnels (around 300, 800 and 1000 m long) by covering the A2 around here (plus a 250 m tunnel on the cantonal road and tunnels on the ramps of the planned Sigirino interchange). The targets are the same, noise reduction, more space and a site to store building materials (from some tunneling projects in the region and from other construction activities). These tunnels would be partly financed by those who now have to pay to dispose of their materials (for instance, non recyclable material from the demolition of buildings) in existing landfills, which are now near their limits.

https://www.cdt.ch/ticino/lugano/coprire-la2-per-riconquistare-lintero-fondovalle-AUCDT151122

https://www.facebook.com/PAV-Progetto-Alto-Vedeggio-958681657553723/


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## ChrisZwolle

*Col du Grand Saint-Bernard*

Some photos of the Col du Grand Saint-Bernard, the westernmost crossing between Switzerland and Italy.


Col du Grand Saint-Bernard-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col du Grand Saint-Bernard-12 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col du Grand Saint-Bernard-16 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col du Grand Saint-Bernard-15 by European Roads, on Flickr


Col du Grand Saint-Bernard-18 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## General Maximus

I wish I was in the Alps right now, where I've lived for so long. Especially with the weather that they're having right now. I need to skiiiiiiiiiiiiiii....

Instead, I have to do with London this weekend after having returned from Dublin last night. Basel, Zurich and Geneva are awaiting later in the week. I can update on the ongoing mess on the A1 at ZH that never seems to come to a halt


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## Coccodrillo

Under the Menouve mountain and passes a road tunnel started to be built in 1856, but works were stopped just 9 months later because of costs and difficulties and less than 100 m of tunnel were built (it would have been around 3 km long). Meanwhile tunneling technology improved, but in 1906 the Simplon rail tunnel opened so a road tunnel under the Menouve would have attracted little traffic in an era where motorized road vehicles were nearly non-existent. The Great St. Bernard tunnel was built one century later not far from the Menouve tunnel.

Location: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...=18641231,,,&E=2581686.23&N=1081337.93&zoom=7

Other links:

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traforo_del_Menouve

http://www.filipponi.info/montagne/95-menouve/indice.htm

https://www.lastampa.it/2016/07/30/...ome-teatro-KJUqD1lM0AWsmShfllFfRN/pagina.html

A gondola lift lead to the North Menouve Pass, but it was closed in 2010 because of costs, it served a small ski resort made of mainly difficult ski slopes, and thus attracted only experienced skiers which are a minority of skiers.


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## ChrisZwolle

Interesting. It makes you wonder why they didn't choose to built the Grand St Bernard Tunnel at the same location as the Menouve Tunnel. They would be approximately the same length and altitude. Maybe the approach on the Italian side would be too steep.


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## g.spinoza

^^ The Grand St Bernard route was already well established, there were roads on both sides already. The question can be reversed: why did they start building Menouve at all, when such an established route like G S Bernard was already there?


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## Coccodrillo

One website says that it was expressly designed with an anticlerical view, to make comeptition with the G S Bernard pass managed by the church (a new accomodation building for travellers and their animals was also planned).

_Secondo il mio informatore valdostano - Ronni Bessi, che ringrazio - il traforo era pensato per il passaggio di carri, muli e cavalli. Era pure prevista la costruzione di un ospizio per accogliere i viandanti. Da notare anche che fu sottoscritto un trattato internazionale tra la giovane Confederazione elvetica e il Regno di Sardegna. La galleria era pensata anche in chiave anticlericale, in aperta concorrenza dunque con il passo e il relativo ospizio del Gran San Bernardo. Ciò non mancò di suscitare le ire della Chiesa valdostana. _

Remember also that when the road was built there were basically no motorized road vehicles, so a shorter (but not much steeper) route was better, while now speed can compensate longer routes.

************************

A new tunnel will be built along H13 south of Locarno. It will be 1500 m long, with three small tunnels leading directly to the outside instead of a safety tunnel. It will cost around 100 million CHF, AADT of the existing road is likely around 12.000. The existing road is narrow (formally with two lanes) and prone to rockfalls.

https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.1527...4!1sEzvvJjLjOcvK607AZ1Tt-A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

A section of H13 was diverted underground some decades ago for the same reasons. In this case the old road was closed on the southern side and likely been limited to local residents, in this new tunnel the old road will have to be kept open throughout because of a local bus route, but it will certainly have some sort of limitations.

https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.1542...=203&h=100&yaw=61.942577&pitch=0&thumbfov=100

I wonder where they will put the construction base, there is not a lot of space there.

https://www4.ti.ch/dt/dc/aosop/temi/galleria-di-moscia/galleria/galleria/


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Seems cheap compared to that other planned tunnel near Locarno.


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## Coccodrillo

The A13 section Bellinzona-Locarno would cost 1.5 billion, but it includes a twin tube 6.5 km tunnel and a 4 lane 1.5 km cut&cover tunnel, plus a new bridge and open air sections. This one is a single tube tunnel (and a cantonal rather than federal project), it seems a little bit cheaper but not that much.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Col de la Forclaz*

The _Col de la Forclaz_ is a 1527 meter high pass in Valais (Wallis), southwestern Switzerland. It connects Martigny to Chamonix. Interestingly, it is not on the border between Switzerland and France. The Vallée du Trient is west of the pass and belongs to Switzerland. It can only be accessed via the _Col de la Forclaz_ from the rest of Switzerland.

1. The road ascends from the valley at Martigny. There is a great view over the city and the Rhône Valley.

Martigny by European Roads, on Flickr

2. Col de la Forclaz, with altitudes both in meters and feet, which is pretty unusual.

Col de la Forclaz-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

Col de la Forclaz-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. 

Col de la Forclaz-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. Vallée du Trient.

Col de la Forclaz-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. These mountains belong to the Massif du Mont-Blanc.

Col de la Forclaz-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Coccodrillo

The roads in the Trient valley are divided in two parts, both starts from Martigny but via different roads. There is a gap between Le Trétien and Finhaut, which is filled only by the railway (which itself takes another different path, via Vernayaz which the lower road avoids).

Col de la Forclaz links the Trient valley with the valley south of Martigny.

The border cuts one side valley of the Trient valley, its watershed is the Col des Montets which is in France and bypassed by one of the rare combined road-rail tunnel (alternate traffic in the same bore, not two parallel and separate bores, which are more common).

I have already seen elsewhere this kind of signs with altitude both in metres and feet, in Graubünden I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col_de_la_Forclaz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col_des_Montets

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_des_Montets

https://www.chamonix.net/english/travel/col-des-montets-tunnel

https://www.google.com/search?q=tun...KHdAbC2MQ9QEwAnoECAMQBA#imgrc=JdRBarFYmoVOYM:

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...=18641231,,,&E=2566020.64&N=1104440.28&zoom=7


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## ChrisZwolle

The signs that display feet were probably widely implemented by the Automobile Club de Suisse, perhaps during the 1950s. There are a number that remain. I have never seen feet being used in other Alpine countries.

Maybe it was directed at English tourists. English people have long been interested in Switzerland. The first ascent of the Matterhorn was by an Englishman.


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## General Maximus

English people are all over the Alps. In Mayrhofen alone there are hundreds of them, and there's a large expat population in Switzerland as well...


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## g.spinoza

Is UK still measuring elevations with imperial units?


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## ChrisZwolle

I found this paper detailing the English / British interest in Switzerland from the mid-19th century: https://www.zum.de/whkmla/sp/1011/aum/aum1.html

The Golden Age of Alpinism is the period between Alfred Will's ascent of Wetterhorn in 1854 and Edward Whymper's ascent of Matterhorn in 1865. Both climbers were English. The Golden Age of Alpinism was dominated by British Alpine climbers accompanied by Swiss and French guides. The era ended with Whymper's ascent of the Matterhorn.​

Tourism in Switzerland began after the first ascents on major peaks. However the touring had been exclusively for the riches until the 20th century. It became more popular, and commoner's visit to Switzerland began in the early 1900s. Switzerland's mass tourism shares its history with the development of transportation and resorts. 

Switzerland has had numerous visitors in its history. However Switzerland came to take major role in the world of tourism in 19th century. Especially, British bourgeoisie significantly visited Switzerland for its Alpine mountains. This could be interpreted that industrial revolution gave birth to many Nouveau-riches, who had to spend time, which as a result, was Alpine mountaineering. Switzerland stood up among many touring site in Europe in the 19th century, in many ways.​
The long-established interest of the British in Switzerland may have led the Automobile Club de Suisse to install these signs with altitude in feet in the 1950s.


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## General Maximus

g.spinoza said:


> Is UK still measuring elevations with imperial units?


Side by side, but in general chit-chat they use metres.


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## Attus

(DEL)


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## eeee.

ChrisZwolle said:


> The _Col de la Forclaz_ is a 1527 meter high pass in Valais (Wallis), southwestern Switzerland. It connects Martigny to Chamonix. Interestingly, it is not on the border between Switzerland and France. The Vallée du Trient is west of the pass and belongs to Switzerland. It can only be accessed via the _Col de la Forclaz_ from the rest of Switzerland.


Col de la Forclaz is no main water divide, the river _Trient_ also flows to the north. Therefore it's not a surprise that there is no border.


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## ChrisZwolle

On the other hand not all passes with a water divide are a border: Simplon, Maloja and Bernina are examples where the border is below the pass.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Lac d'Émosson*

I've never heard of this pass, the _Col de la Gueulaz_. It's a 1960 meter high road to the Lac d'Émosson, a reservoir near the French border, west of the Col de la Forclaz.


Col de la Gueulaz by European Roads, on Flickr


Col de la Gueulaz-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Lac d'Émosson - Massif du Mont-Blanc by European Roads, on Flickr


Lac d'Émosson 360 panorama by European Roads, on Flickr


Lac d'Émosson-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*Nationalstrassen*

The national road construction program, with completion years:


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## g.spinoza

Is there no possibility, in winter, to go directly from Valais to Ticino without having to pass through Italy?


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> Is there no possibility, in winter, to go directly from Valais to Ticino without having to pass through Italy?


No. The Novena, Fürka, Grimsel and Susten passes all have winter seasonal closures from the first serious snowfall in late Oct (usually) until sometime in late Spring.

There is, however, the Fürka car ferry transport between Oberwald and Realp (https://www.matterhorngotthardbahn.ch/en/winter/journey/car-transport/furka/timetable/) through the base tunnel. Then one can drive to Andermatt, Göschenen and take the Gotthard road tunnel to arrive in Ticino.

I think is probably faster to take the Simplon pass anyway for most destinations. And from Martigny driving through Bern and Luzern will likely even out with the Simplon => Ticino route.


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## Coccodrillo

The Furka base tunnel was built starting from three points, the two portals and an intermediate access tunnel in Bedretto valley, the so-called Bedretto Fenster:

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...18641231,,,&E=2681169.82&N=1150087.05&zoom=11

https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=Bedretto#map=17/46.49700/8.49687

It was planned to use this access tunnel for a new railway to Airolo, and for another car shuttle service from Oberwald to somewhere near this portal. This side tunnel itself is too small for a train, so to open it to traffic would require a certain amount of work and money.

From time to time authorities make studies about opening it, but every time they decide it is not worth it. Cost-benefit analysis on public infrastructures (railways, roads, sport centres, hospitals, ...) in remote areas are always a waste of time and money, because it is usually obvious that these infrastructures will never be economically profotable. So it is purely a political decision to build or not to build them.

In my opinion it is a shame that there has not been at all an east-west link between Luzern and Locarno in winter until the Furka base tunnel was opened, and that there is not a year round link (rail or road) between Wallis-Valais and Ticino, but that's it.


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## Suburbanist

Maybe they can combine this side tunnel with the Grimsel tunnel project...


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## ChrisZwolle

Eastern Wallis and northern Ticino are also sparsely populated, so a year-round link would mostly benefit longer distance traffic (Brig - Bellinzona, etc) which is also possible via Italy.


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## Corvinus

mgk920 said:


> IMHO, restriping each one to two lanes will be inevitable.
> 
> Mike


Don't worry, there will be two marked lanes per tube right away, just with one blocked by light signals, like so:










Anyway, this is Switzerland and you're meant to use public transport (except, of course, when your fervent Green/leftist/whatever car traffic opponent gets stuck in the elevator -- in that case, the technician is supposed to be on the spot right away, driving and parking his service car!) :banana:


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## eeee.

:blahblah: as if someone has to cross the Alps to repair an elevator.

Btw...
Using public transport has nothing to do with one's political attitude. The vast majority of Swiss people travel by car AND train. Only the most ignorant think that's against each other.


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## g.spinoza

eeee. said:


> :blahblah: as if someone has to cross the Alps to repair an elevator.
> 
> Btw...
> Using public transport has nothing to do with one's political attitude. The vast majority of Swiss people travel by car AND train. Only the most ignorant think that's against each other.


Unless the Swiss have the power of bilocation like Christian saints, it's either one or the other.


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## mgk920

Well, some trips are more appropriately made by private automobile, others are better made by a 'common carrier' of some sort (ie, intercity train, airliner, tram, diesel or trolley bus, etc).

Mike


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## g.spinoza

mgk920 said:


> Well, some trips are more appropriately made by private automobile, others are better made by a 'common carrier' of some sort (ie, intercity train, airliner, tram, diesel or trolley bus, etc).
> 
> Mike


In my opinion, if one owns a car, he's going to use it. Train is competitive only for rare long-distance high-speed trips (but they're usually more expensive) or for daily commute (but it's usually slower).


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## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> mgk920 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, some trips are more appropriately made by private automobile, others are better made by a 'common carrier' of some sort (ie, intercity train, airliner, tram, diesel or trolley bus, etc).
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion, if one owns a car, he's going to use it. Train is competitive only for rare long-distance high-speed trips (but they're usually more expensive) or for daily commute (but it's usually slower).
Click to expand...

park-and-ride is a thing


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> park-and-ride is a thing


Only for very specific places where you are not allowed to go by car (London, Milan). If I use my car to commute, I go all the way.


----------



## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> In my opinion, if one owns a car, he's going to use it.


Wrong. In Switzerland, and in many other countries, too. 
And actually it is not a matter of opinion, these are facts. 

However, rail transit has a modal share of approx. 17% in Switzerland, which is the highest in Europe but even so the car:train modal share is about 5:1.


----------



## Attus

Suburbanist said:


> park-and-ride is a thing


Actually it is not. Apart from some locations where car transit is forbidden or restricted, P+R's modal share is everywhere under 1%.


----------



## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> Wrong. In Switzerland, and in many other countries, too.
> And actually it is not a matter of opinion, these are facts.


So people is using both car and train at the same time?hno:

Since when I have a car, I try to use train as little as possible.


----------



## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> So people is using both car and train at the same time?hno:


Of course not the same time. Please do not so as if you were a dumb kid, and not a Dr. 



> Since when I have a car, I try to use train as little as possible.


Many people think so. Other people don't. I myself have a car but I take a train quite oft, and I'm not alone by this behavior. 
In Switzerland travelling by train is not something like a possibility for people who have no car. But of course there are many trips where rail services are not acceptable for example because you drive inside a village that has no train station at all


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> If I use my car to commute, I go all the way.


I normally commute by train because it's the fastest (and my employer pays for it). But if the train services are cut short due to construction, I do not use the shuttle bus, but go by car the entire way. 

Public transport is only faster if the trip is almost station-to-station (as it is in my case), the travel time and convenience quickly becomes unfavorable once you need to transfer, especially to another mode such as the bus or a long bike ride.


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## Attus

^^P+R, i.e. changing mode inside a trip, may only be attractive in some special cases. If you live somewhere in a village where there is no attractive public transport (or there is no public transport at all) but you commute to a city center which is heavily congested and/or you have no possibility for parking. Usually its share is under 1%.


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## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> Of course not the same time. Please do not so as if you were a dumb kid, and not a Dr.
> 
> 
> Many people think so. Other people don't. I myself have a car but I take a train quite oft, and I'm not alone by this behavior.
> In Switzerland travelling by train is not something like a possibility for people who have no car. But of course there are many trips where rail services are not acceptable for example because you drive inside a village that has no train station at all


I've said many times in the past, that I commute by bus+train, even though it's not faster than by car (and my employer does not pay for it, contrary to Chris' one). As I said, commuting is one of the few instance where train makes sense. The second one is big city to big city (high speed train), but it can easily be more expensive than by car, especially if you're not traveling alone.

For instance I would never, ever, ever go on vacation by train. Once you reach your destination (in double the time you would by going by car), you're basically stuck there: then there's luggage to carry to the hotel...

I cannot see myself taking a train car shuttle: I know it's a thing in Switzerland, but I think it's slower, more expensive and to me makes no sense. 

But I understand I've gone too much off topic, sorry. I won't reply to any other posts on this matter.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Only for very specific places where you are not allowed to go by car (London, Milan). If I use my car to commute, I go all the way.


It depends. If in a certain city parking is very expensive and/or scarce, one may think to park the car in one spot and travel by PT around the city. In many central areas, PT is less expensive, faster, and less stressful to use than a private car.
I've driven to Pero or Cinisello Balsamo and took the metro into central Milan (to avoid eco tax, parking fees, etc...).
I (relatively regularly) drive to Marghera and take the bus to Venice (parking in Venice's multi storey garages is outrageously expensive).
I've taken buses from where I parked my car for free in Trieste and the place I had actually to go, especially if it was too rainy or windy to walk comfortably.


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## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> I cannot see myself taking a train car shuttle: I know it's a thing in Switzerland, but I think it's slower, more expensive and to me makes no sense.


Apart the Simplon pass, other car shuttles in Switzerland don't have road alternatives.


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## Suburbanist

italystf said:


> g.spinoza said:
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot see myself taking a train car shuttle: I know it's a thing in Switzerland, but I think it's slower, more expensive and to me makes no sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Apart the Simplon pass, other car shuttles in Switzerland don't have road alternatives.
Click to expand...

they do 5 months per year except the Lötschberg


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## MichiH

italystf said:


> Apart the Simplon pass, other car shuttles in Switzerland don't have road alternatives.


Furka pass is an alternative to Furka Oberalp Railway but only in summer. I've been there this May and the pass was still closed. I had to take the car shuttle train. It was the first time I've taken a car shuttle train. It was a nice experience.


----------



## Sunfuns

I have a fair few co-workers who commute to work by train even though they do own cars. I myself don't - see no point of this extra expense in Basel. Commuting with a car would win me about 10-15 minutes per direction on most days. Friday evenings could be -1 h, though...


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## ChrisZwolle

A friend of mine reported that the 'Verzweigung Brig-Glis' of A9 is not signed with the motorway-motorway interchange symbol anymore.

This never was a true motorway-to-motorway interchange.


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## MichiH

qrcok said:


> In the meantime somebody will discover, that the batteries and neodymium magnets used in (of course eco) wind mills are not that enviroment friendly and we will have another enemy to fight against.


In the meantime somebody *has* discover*ed*, that the batteries are not that enviroment friendly


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## qrcok

MichiH said:


> In the meantime somebody *has* discover*ed*, that the batteries are not that enviroment friendly


I see you not get my sarcasm.
Of course everyone knows this is already known fact, but as long _somebody_ forces current version called Energiewende, we should not destroy this business.
Utopia like this is well known in central Europe countries which were under soviet occupation, as a _wisdom of stage_ (I am not sure if there is a better translation). In easier words forced bulls**t, against the facts, to acheive actual goals.


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## mgk920

'Utopia', an old Greek word that means 'nowhere'.

'nuff said.

:nuts:

Mike


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## qrcok

New option for A53 (Tunnel tief):









In my opinion good one. Does not require rebuilding of Kreisel Betzholz.
(Source:Anzeiger von Uster)


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## belerophon

Don't get your point. The need not to rebuild a (big) roundabout is no real justification for a long tunnel isnt it? There might be other causes though


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## steve5

*Widening of the A1 northern bypass of Zürich*


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## Coccodrillo

From tomorrow 400 km of roads, including many which are not motorways or Autostrasse, will be owned by the federal government (and thus will require a vignette, if they are motorways).

I suppose we will see many new white numbers in red diamonds like the A24 Mendrisio-Stabio (today road n.394). I don't know how will be signposted the federal roads which are not motorways or Autostrasse, AFAIK there aren't now.

I let you discover the new A numbers in the link below, which shows the roads where the vignette will be mandatory (ASTRA non motorway roads are not shown).

Some odd numbers like A1.1 are going to disappear, other aren't, like A3W.

https://fedro.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=5f15c3f1d0ee401097a21be527d12a0c


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A9:* Visp-West – Visp-South ~4km (? to 2021/22) [2nd c/w] project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


It is now planned that both tunnel tubes will be in service by Mid 2024.

https://www.a9-vs.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/A9info/A9-Info_Nov2019.pdf


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## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> From tomorrow 400 km of roads, including many which are not motorways or Autostrasse, will be owned by the federal government (and thus will require a vignette, if they are motorways).
> 
> I suppose we will see many new white numbers in red diamonds like the A24 Mendrisio-Stabio (today road n.394). I don't know how will be signposted the federal roads which are not motorways or Autostrasse, AFAIK there aren't now.
> 
> I let you discover the new A numbers in the link below, which shows the roads where the vignette will be mandatory (ASTRA non motorway roads are not shown).
> 
> Some odd numbers like A1.1 are going to disappear, other aren't, like A3W.
> 
> https://fedro.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=5f15c3f1d0ee401097a21be527d12a0c


So also the Locarno tunnel will require vignette? IIRC few years ago it was vignette-free.


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## Coccodrillo

Yes, a vignette is needed there since yesterday, as it is on the "new" A24 Mendrisio-Stabio autostrasse. However there will still be a few cantonal motorways where a vignette is not needed, as the A52. And for the first time there will be federal roads which are not A-roads, actually even many urban roads will become managed by ASTRA (although maintenance might still be contracted to cantons and towns, I suppose).

The idea to use the same number for unconnected roads is confusing, especcially for the two A23, but also A20 and partly A2.

Unless they decide to number "23" also the conventional road between the two A23 autostrasse sections, although this is again a little confusing as H23 is a totally different road (while, for instance, A2-H2 and A13-H13 roughly follow the same corridor). Usuing sometimes N1 and sometimes A1 is also confusing.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauptstrasse_23

It is also curious to see that some short branches received a number-letter designation leid to the main motorway (A1R is a branch of A1), and some branches of comparable length received a separate number (it is A24, not, say, A2S - thankfully).

A4a becomes part of A14, and A4 remains as it is, even if both have a TOTSO (a single number for Zürich-Luzern might have been more logic).

Generally speaking, I don't like TOTSOs, nor lettered branches like A3W, and I think that motorways quite far from each other but with the same number should have two different numbers (like the two A3, the two A4 and the two A20).


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## MichiH

But why do they rename A51 to A11, A53 to A15, A4a to A14?
Why does the short motorway to German A864 not get a number?
Will all tolled routes indicated on the map be called "A" routes?
Is there a full list of all these "A routes"?

When will the signs be updated?


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## Coccodrillo

1) A5x numbers are likely reserved for cantonal motorways, as for A4a I don't know but at least all branches will be coherent (and not as it is no, when we have A4a (lowercase letter), A3W (uppercase letter), and A1.1 (number-dot-number))
2) you are asking too much! the mess in road numbers is one of the few messy things in this country
3) the roads in the map* will need a vignette, but not not all A roads will need a vignette, and not all federal roads are also A roads (and these do not need a vignette)
3a) note that historically motorways in Switzerland were called N1 and so on, and only more recently A1 and so on, this is confusing as N elsewhere like in France and Spain denotes national roads which are not motorways, these do exist in Switzerland but they are not called with the N prefix
3b) this comes from the fact that Switzerland is a federal state and until the first motorway opened basically all roads were managed by cantons and municipalities, that's why the motorways were called "national roads" and not "motorways": they didn't replace existing national roads, they were the first national roads (beside that, some where Autobahn, some Austostrasse, so they needed a new word to denote both)
4) yes, somebody already started to update Wikipedia in German**
5) who knows?

*map: https://fedro.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=5f15c3f1d0ee401097a21be527d12a0c
**de.wiki: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Hauptstrassen_der_Schweiz and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Autobahnen_und_Autostrassen_in_der_Schweiz


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## Coccodrillo

A 1.5 km tunnel will be built on H13 just after the existin Ascona tunnel, to replace a narrow section of road (less than two lanes wide) where bigger vehicles have problems to cross each other. This is a cantonal project, as the "new" federal "road 13" (which includes A13 and conventional roads) ends just after the 5.5 Mappo-Morettina tunnel.

The existing road will remain in place for local traffic, likely with bidirectional traffic, as there is a local bus line there.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/46.1517/8.7489

More info about the Msocia tunnel: https://www3.ti.ch/CAN/comunicati/05-07-2019-comunicato-stampa-638690464905.pdf and https://www3.ti.ch/DT/cartellastampa/pdf-cartella-stampa-478447370505.pdf (map on page 16)


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## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Lausanne*

A shoulder lane will commence operations on A1 north of Lausanne on 20 January. It's only a 3 kilometer section from the Villars-Ste-Croix interchange (A9) to the next interchange at Cossonay.


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## g.spinoza

A project about the construction of a new alignment of motorway A2, in the proximity of the Italian border, has been presented. Basically it will consist in the dismantling of current stretch between Balerna and the border, and the rerouting through a new 4-km tunnel under Penz Hill and the town of Pedrinate. The tunnel will have the other exit in Italy, near Monte Olimpino.
Estimated cost for the sole tunnel is 400 M€. It is unclear where and how the new customs area will be built.










https://www.espansionetv.it/gate/20...da-chiasso-e-monte-olimpino-sotto-la-collina/
https://www.corrieredicomo.it/la-po...ino-ma-il-solo-tunnel-costerebbe-400-milioni/


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## OulaL

^^ Hopefully there will be joint border and customs controls on either side before entering the tunnel, so that there won't be any queues in the tunnel.


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## Eulanthe

OulaL said:


> ^^ Hopefully there will be joint border and customs controls on either side before entering the tunnel, so that there won't be any queues in the tunnel.


It would be logical, as there's really no reason to have separate controls.


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## ChrisZwolle

Switzerland has recorded the lowest amount of traffic fatalities since 1940, with 187 fatalities in 2019.


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## Coccodrillo

ASTRA says that traffic in Chiasso (I suppose only A2) decreased from 50.000 to 5.000/10.000 vpd, including trucks. However qaiting times increased a lot due to checks.

Through Gotthard and San Bernardino tunnels traffic dropped to 20-40% of normal levels.

On Morges-Ecublens sections of the A1 traffic is around 34.000, compared to 96.000.

However, on other sections of motorways traffic decreased just by 30-40%.

Statistics for the Mont Blanc tunnel are already available: it was used by 4.904 cars on Sunday 16 feb, and by just 80 (yes, eighty) on Sunday 22 march. Buses disappeared, from 40-80 a day to 0. Trucks, however, remain quite stable, around 1.500 to 2.500 according to the day of the week (less on weekends).


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## ChrisZwolle

A53 has been changed to A15:










Photo by Marcel.


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## Luki_SL

^^Any reason?


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## ChrisZwolle

It was part of the renumbering of the national road network that was introduced this year. 

More info here: Die neuen Nationalstrassen


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## belerophon

ChrisZwolle said:


> A53 has been changed to A15:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photo by Marcel.


Only the northern part to Uster? Why?


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## ChrisZwolle

The whole A53 has been renumbered to A15. 

I believe the idea was that the A5x series was reserved for cantonal motorways.


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## Coccodrillo

Swiss road numbering has no logic. Most roads don't have a publicly known number, many but still a minority have a number which can be found on public documents (and that someone added to OpenStreetMap) but not on signs or anywhere along the road, and just some main roads and motorways have a number used on signs and with the public (on traffic annoucements etc). A5x seems to have been reserved for Zürich cantonal motorways, while other cantonal motorways have a (usually not clearly defined) number in another range.


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## Suburbanist

Who pays for the road train shuttles (Lötschberg, Fürka, Albula, Vareina, Oberalp)? The confederation or the canton(s) involved?


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## Coccodrillo

It varies.


Simplon: subsidy from Valais-Wallis
Lötschberg: the service covers its running costs, the railway opened in 1913
Simplon+Lötschberg: it is likely paid by the BLS; like the Lötschberg service alone
Furka: federal government
Oberalp: federal government
Vereina: the service covers its running costs, the railway opened in 1999 was financed in other ways and has not to be repaid
Gotthard (ceased in 1980 and 2001) and Albula (closed in 2001): I don't know, they likely covered their costs

The source about Furka and Oberalp shuttles says that the federal government finances them according to the rules for subsidies for regional trains and buses, without citing the cantons. However, rules for regional trains and buses are that there is also a cantonal contribution for them, which is related to how financially strong the canton is (Graubünden pays less, in %, for its buses than canton Zürich). So there is likely also a cantonal contribution for these two lines, but lower in % than the Simplon (where 100% of subsidies are paid by Valais-Wallis).

Source: Carico degli autoveicoli


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## ChrisZwolle

The temporary Sigirino exit on A2 north of Lugano will become a permanent exit. It was originally built as a temporary exit for the AlpTransit construction traffic, but will now be redesigned as a full interchange. It's on a 12 kilometer stretch of A2 between Monte Ceneri and Lugano that originally had no exit but the valley is relatively densely settled. Construction will start in 2024 and take around three years.






Grünes Licht für neuen Anschluss Sigirino







www.astra.admin.ch


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## Coccodrillo

It will be a completely new interchange, not an adaptation of the existing one. On that stretch 4 tunnels might also be built, each between 200 and 800 metres, by covering the road where it is now. A side effect of them is a new dump for building waste (demolished buildings, etc). When I saw some plans on a public presentation (no way to take photos) it seemed that at least one of the ramps of this junction will be in one of the four tunnels (maybe as a separate bore).

I used the temporary junction once, as well as the one on Lugano north branch (Swiss Geoportal). It was when AlpTransit made possible a visit with a round trip by bus in the southern half of the new rail tunnel, with the return part on the A2.

Another half-junction (only to/from the south) will be built here between Bellinzona north and south: Swiss Geoportal

I saw the new <24> red diamond on signs leading to the Mendrisio-Stabio autostrasse.


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## ChrisZwolle

Some more renumberings are appearing in the field.

A51 to Zürich Airport is now A11 on the kilometer markers (but not yet on the signs).



















Photos by Marcel.


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## ChrisZwolle

11 June 1955: The Luzern - Horw segment of what would later become A2 opened to traffic. 65 years ago today. It is regarded as the first motorway of Switzerland.

































Fotoalbum







www.horw.ch


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## Corvinus

Took these photos as an example of a dual carriageway section which is not an expressway: Road 8 from Biberbrugg to Schindellegi.
The general extraurban speed limit of 80 km/h applies. Slow vehicles are allowed, notably there are bicycle lanes on both sides. 

1.









2.









3.









4.









5.









6.









7. The fun ends after only about 5 km, at the roundabout ahead of this underpass. Road 8 continues as simple 2 x 1 to Pfäffikon and Rapperswil.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Is vignette needed also for those?


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## ChrisZwolle

Oof, from a Dutch perspective such bike lanes are a terrible idea.


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## Corvinus

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Is vignette needed also for those?


No, to my knowledge, as long as it is a cantonal road (white no. in blue rectangular shield), no toll sticker (vignette) is required - as opposed to most national roads (_Nationalstrassen_), which are mostly motorways and expressways (numbered with red hexagonal shields, resembling German motorway numbers).


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## Suburbanist

Cycling in those fast lanes is borderline reckless, and outright so at night or with rain. I wonder how many people other than road cycling leisure or sport groups actually use such lanes: too narrow, and exceedingly dangerous for the slight mistake on part of drivers or cyclists, especially on truck X bike interactions.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Gotthard Tunnel has congestion again.


----------



## Corvinus

Swiss authorities predict a significantly higher-than-average number of Swiss people spending their Summer vacation this year inside the country, given the uncertainties around international travel. This also means more of them will be going to Ticino, the country's "sunny parlor". 
Add the Italians who will be travelling back and forth as much as it is allowed to, and there goes the traffic ...


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## ChrisZwolle

Ticino offers things similar to Northern Italy, especially the lakes and mountain scenery. I can imagine it will be busy. I've only stayed overnight in Ticino during one vacation, on a campsite near Mendrisio. My impression was that Ticino is rather crowded and likely to be booked solid during high season, compared to other parts of Switzerland. 

From a Dutch perspective, Switzerland is considered to be 'very pricey' and most people go to Italy (to stay in a € 150 - 200/night mobile home at one of the lakes...  )


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## Suburbanist

Ticino has some quieter valleys. I traveled to Lugano the day after internal "non-essential" travel had no counter-recommendation: the city was full. I saw Ticino tourist advertisements in several places here in Zürich these past 10 days.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Rhône Valley in Wallis / Valais usually has good weather too. But it doesn't have the lakes or Mediterranean feeling that Ticino has. 

I wonder if summer tourism at Lake Geneva is a thing? I've never seen that advertised or heard about people who traveled there.


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## Ni3lS

Traveled there many years in a row as a kid. The Rhône valley in the area of Annecy usually has great weather in summer and there is lots to see and do.


----------



## g.spinoza

I love Switzerland but, for an Italian wallet, it is just too much. If I had to go to vacation to see Alpine scenery I'd rather choose Italy, or France, or Austria.


----------



## Suburbanist

g.spinoza said:


> I love Switzerland but, for an Italian wallet, it is just too much. If I had to go to vacation to see Alpine scenery I'd rather choose Italy, or France, or Austria.


With the end of travel restrictions, Domodossola, Como and to a lesser extent Tirano will be full again of Swiss people buying food stuff on markets, and what not. I was surprised at the large amount of high-quality restaurants in Domodossola, a town I had never visited before moving to Switzerland. One can have an amazing sit-down meal there for the price of a mediocre service lunch in large Swiss cities. Reservations at the most interesting places is a must, else you might just not have any table available on weekends, at all.

By train, Domodossola is just 3h from Zürich, or 1h50 from Bern.

---------------

Speaking of Swiss and Italian alps, I read the 'collegamento Cervinia-Zermatt" project is going full steam ahead, in a few years it will be possible to travel by gondolas/cable cars from one city to the other, like it is possible to travel from Cormayeur to Chamonix (though no road tunnel or mountain road between Cervinia and Zermatt exist...).


----------



## Coccodrillo

By skiing and walking it has been possible to go from Cervinia to Zermatt for years, the news is that the remaining gap in the ropeway link will be filled.

At 3900 m it will be the highest transalpine crossing, excluding alpinism.



g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Is vignette needed also for those?


A vignette is needed for roads that both are national roads and have motorway/autostrasse status, which are now quite a few. From this year most motorways which were not national roads ended up in ASTRA management, while ASTRA also took possession of some non motorway roads (until last year, there were basically no federal non.motorway roads).

Red roads in this map became federal this year, some of which are motorways or autostrasse, some are conventional roads (including city sections): Strade nazionali efficienti e in buono stato

(anyway, the one in the photos in the previous page is not a motorway/autostrasse)



ChrisZwolle said:


> Oof, from a Dutch perspective such bike lanes are a terrible idea.


The situation on the A16 near Biel/Bienne is far worse, as it has many tunnels and as it is de facto a motorway (although de jure it isn't).









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.ch





They are renovating that section, better dividing bike lanes partly by giving them a sort of raised carriageway divided by a kerb, but it is still far from safe. The problem is that there isn't an alternative there, so both bycicles and agricultural vehicles limited to 30 km/h must use that road.

I don't know the history of this section, but it is obvious that the A16 was built on the cheap side by building a new southbound carriageway and recycling the old road for northbound traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've noticed that the German-speaking part of Switzerland appears to have much more paid parking than the French part, at least in rural / mountain areas. In _Deutschschweiz_ you have to pay almost everywhere, even at some mountain passes, at supermarkets, even at a social housing estate in Thusis there is paid parking. It appears to be over the top. In the French part it is almost all free, I believe I've seen a 'zentrale parkuhr' only once, at the Jaun Pass (a ridiculous location to charge parking fees in the summer).


----------



## Corvinus

^^ Even many Swiss people are annoyed by the clearly overdone charging and artificial restrictions for public area parking.
A smaller town in my region has stopped charging on Sundays(!) for the public swimming pool's parking after receiving a wave of complaint letters from residents. The swimming pool is far outside the center at the end of the town in an industrial area.
For decades, there has been a strong anti-car / "green" stance going on in CH, based on the mentality that "you can just as well use public transport which is available for you, you don't have to drive". That resulted in a number of nonsensical regulations especially around parking. The euphemism in official lingo for charging parking fees is "Bewirtschaftung". And fees are not the only issue. City of Zurich has a regulation prohibiting the number of available parking spots to exceed a limit. Voted in somewhere in the 1990s. "Rationale" given by the anti-car folks is that "easier parking incites people to take car instead of other means of transport".

On the other hand, it's true that the public transport infrastructure makes genuine efforts to provide a viable alternative for many cases of travel. The pandemic-related official recommendation earlier this year to prefer individual means of transport (read: cars) over public transportation was un-Swiss to its core.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I drove through Zürich yesterday at 8.30 a.m. (across A3 from Walensee towards Basel). I was surprised by the lack of traffic congestion at that hour. There was only a bit of a queue before the Limmattaler Kreuz for traffic going into the Gubrist Tunnel. Otherwise it was free flow and not even particularly dense traffic. This while work-at-home orders have been lifted earlier.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Schönbühl - Kirchberg*

The federal council has approved plans to widen A1 north of Bern to six lanes from the Schönbühl interchange to the Kirchberg exit. Construction is scheduled to start in 2030 and will take around 4 years. The construction cost is estimated at 412 million CHF.






Bundesrat genehmigt Generelle Projekte für Umgestaltung Anschluss Wankdorf sowie Erweiterung Schönbühl-Kirchberg


Aktuelle Informationen aus der Verwaltung. Alle Medienmitteilungen der Bundesverwaltung, der Departemente und Ämter.




www.admin.ch














This widening project is one of several projects scheduled on A1. The Bern-Wankdorf - Schönbühl segment will be widened to eight lanes from 2027 and the Luterbach - Härkingen segment is also scheduled to be widened in the near future (earlier sources indicated a construction start in 2022).

A1 follows a densely populated and transited part of Switzerland, linking most of the major cities of the country together, like Geneva, Lausanne, Bern, Zürich, Winterthur and Sankt Gallen. Out of the six Swiss cities with a population over 100,000, only Basel is not on A1.


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## ChrisZwolle

I took some photos of the Tamina Bridge near Bad Ragaz. It's the longest span bridge in Switzerland, with a 260 meter main span (arch bridge) and a 200 meter high bridge deck, which makes it one of the highest bridges in Europe. It's relatively unknown though, it's not on a major road, it connects a couple of remote villages to Bad Ragaz.

The bridge is spectacular, but its dimensions are not as readily visible, due to it being in a curve with dense forestry in the canyon. You can't look down very well due to a wide barrier with a mesh on top of it.


Taminabrücke 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


Taminabrücke 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Taminabrücke 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


Taminabrücke 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Suburbanist

There's another very nice and tall bridge near Klösters just before the tunnel north entrance, and a few surprisingly tall road bridges on the dead end rout to Arosa.


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## ChrisZwolle

Isenfluh is a village near Interlaken.

Location: OpenStreetMap

It is accessible by road since 1963, however a rockslide destroyed the road in 1987. The road access was restored in 1992 when a spiral tunnel opened.

It's interesting that the tunnel has a different name from each side, Chuchischleif at the lower portal and Luegiwald at the higher portal.
Maybe they adapted an existing tunnel into the current spiral tunnel in 1992?


Isenfluh 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


Isenfluh 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Corvinus

^^ At least the height clearance is identical at both ends (and preferably, all along inside).

Single track road tunnels are not unheard of in Switzerland. A notable one is the Munt la Schera tunnel in Graubünden, between La Drossa border station and the Italian border / Livigno lake. That one looks like at least 100 years old, and it probably is.


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## g.spinoza

Corvinus said:


> ^^ At least the height clearance is identical at both ends (and preferably, all along inside).
> 
> Single track road tunnels are not unheard of in Switzerland. A notable one is the Munt la Schera tunnel in Graubünden, between La Drossa border station and the Italian border / Livigno lake. That one looks like at least 100 years old, and it probably is.


It was built in the 60s for the construction of the dam.


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## steve5

Emergency lane conversion


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## g.spinoza

Ok. A video explaining something that everybody already knows.


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## The Wild Boy

steve5 said:


> Emergency lane conversion


They use this system already in the USA.


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## g.spinoza

The Wild Boy said:


> They use this system already in the USA.


In Italy since 2008.


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## ChrisZwolle

Switzerland has had one on A1 west of Lausanne for over 10 years. I took these photos in 2010.


shoulder running CH-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


shoulder running CH-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


shoulder running CH-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


shoulder running CH-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


shoulder running CH-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Autobahn-mann

g.spinoza said:


> In Italy since 2008.


Also if (almost in theory) it was expected since 1992.


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## steve5

A1 bypass of Winterthur is under reconstruction at the moment to install the PUN system. It's a temporary solution until the 2x3 lane extension can be built in about 10-16 years: Projektübersicht - Engpass Winterthur


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## Penn's Woods

steve5 said:


> A1 bypass of Winterthur is under reconstruction at the moment to install the PUN system. It's a temporary solution until the 2x3 lane extension can be built in about 10-16 years: Projektübersicht - Engpass Winterthur


10 to 16 years?!


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## Coccodrillo

Yes, they are just a little bit optimistic.

Here a video I made of A9 near Visp a few days ago when passing nearby by train.






The "works" of A9 near Visp on 5-7-2020. This motorway has been under construction for decades, but so slowly that changes on the worksites are unnoticeable without comparing photos. I have NEVER seen a single worker on this road.

Here is the location: Swiss Geoportal

Two weeks before that I traveled on the opened section nearby by car. At least in the Brig to Lausanne direction one can partly avoid passing through Visp. In the other direction the motorway is also open, but using it makes no sense as there isn't the necessary connecting ramp in that direction (that would become basically useless once, in -hopefully- 4 or 5 years, the nearby section opens). So to use the A9 from west to east you have to make a detour much slower than passing through the town, so basically nobody does it.









Sion to Brig







www.google.ch


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## ChrisZwolle

The posted detour in Visp is via the 'Umfahrungsstrasse' on the north side of town, at least it was like that two weeks ago.


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## Stuu

Penn's Woods said:


> 10 to 16 years?!


Complete guess, but the Swiss like to do things according to a clear schedule, so it may be that the works are planned for the 2030-2035 period, not that they will take that long


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## ChrisZwolle

It may also be scheduled that far back due to budget constraints.


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## steve5

ChrisZwolle said:


> It may also be scheduled that far back due to budget constraints.


✅ Start of construction is 2030 or later.


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## qrcok

Source: maps.zh.ch (I can't link direct to complete image)









10-16 years... wouldn't it be faster to build totally new one path like more or less this one already planned but as a motorway? Between Winterthur and (somewhere) Spreitenbach or even Baden, for typical west-east transit?

As long A98 in Germany is incomplete, A1 (and A3 as well) is only one option for such transit traffic in 150-200km on north and south and it cumulates and mix with local traffic in Zurich area.


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## ChrisZwolle

H6 at the Aareschlucht (Aare River Canyon) near Meiringen.


Aareschlucht 26 by European Roads, on Flickr


Aareschlucht 27 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Ni3lS

I stayed 2 nights at the campsite on the left last June, quite a nice location


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## ChrisZwolle

A couple of photos of the Grimsel Pass.


Grimselpass 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Grimselpass 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


Grimselpass 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


Grimselpass 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## MarkSK

Hi all, does anyone know if there are still km-posts with N-numbers around? I found a few remaining on A2 when I was in Switzerland in 2012, and Google Street View from 2014 shows those as well. Though I failed to find any on A1, A6, A8, A9 and A12 when I was there a few years later.

These are the examples I snapped up:

This is just south of Sissach - the N2 is barely readable but you can still make it out:










Entering Basel from the east:










@ChrisZwolle: it's a nice area, visited Aareschlucht too, going to the east on foot, and returning west by train. And did a one-day five-pass tour, starting with Grimsel, continuing with Furka, Gotthard, Oberalp and finishing with Sustenpass.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Furka Pass *

I took some photos of the Furka Pass.


Furkapass 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


Furkapass 08 by European Roads, on Flickr


Furkapass 10 by European Roads, on Flickr


Furkapass 15 by European Roads, on Flickr


Furkapass 16 by European Roads, on Flickr


Furkapass 19 by European Roads, on Flickr


Furkapass 26 by European Roads, on Flickr


Furkapass 30 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Suburbanist

Old paintings and pics from the Fürkapass when the glacier had extended within the branch valley were amazing. Can't imagine how it would look with today's quality. This is a loss: there are really no road passes in the Alps any longer where you will really drive very close to a glacier tongue.


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## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> Old paintings and pics from the Fürkapass when the glacier had extended within the branch valley were amazing. Can't imagine how it would look with today's quality. This is a loss: there are really no road passes in the Alps any longer where you will really drive very close to a glacier tongue.


Ghiacciaio dei Forni - but the road is closed to normal traffic:








Google Maps


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Forni is one of the lowest-altitude glaciers in the Alps, it used to reach down to 2500 m.


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## ChrisZwolle

There are some glaciers on the French side of the Mont Blanc Massif that go down to below 2000 meters. 

In the 1990s I was in Grindelwald and there was a set of stairs to a glacier at ~1400 meters. 

The 1964 James Bond film 'Goldfinger' shows the Rhône Glacier going at considerable height over the ledge. You can't see it from the Furka Pass anymore (but you can still see it from the Grimsel Pass).


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are some glaciers on the French side of the Mont Blanc Massif that go down to below 2000 meters.
> 
> In the 1990s I was in Grindelwald and there was a set of stairs to a glacier at ~1400 meters.
> 
> The 1964 James Bond film 'Goldfinger' shows the Rhône Glacier going at considerable height over the ledge. You can't see it from the Furka Pass anymore (but you can still see it from the Grimsel Pass).


Well in that period the Forni glacier was down to 2200 or even lower.


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## ChrisZwolle

North-facing glaciers typically melt the slowest because they are somewhat less exposed to sunlight. Some glaciers go down very deep due to the steepness of the mountain.

The Mont Blanc northwest face is very steep. The lowest glacier still goes down to about 1700 meters.

2001:









2016:









There are some glaciers in Southern Norway that go down to 500 meters above sea level. They are not sustained by low temperatures, but excessive precipitation and the steepness of the terrain. They are known to fluctuate significantly, but unlike the Alps it's not a continuous retreat.

This is near Fjærland in Southern Norway. The glacier comes down to about 500 meters altitude.


Riksvei 5 Fjærland-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## g.spinoza

Eh, ok, I was talking about the Alps. 
If we're escalating, then here's a picture of sea-level glacier I took 3 years ago at Svalbard:


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## eeee.

MarkSK said:


> And did a one-day five-pass tour, starting with Grimsel, continuing with Furka, Gotthard, Oberalp and finishing with Sustenpass.


Your route is impossible. 
Or did you turn around on the summit of Gotthard and Oberalp?


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## Corvinus

^^ I trust this will be the ultimate result, though nowhere anytime soon. 

Once the new tube is completed and put into service (which will take a few years as works have not even begun), the old one will be shut down and refurbished (which is due after 40 years of service). 

When at the end both tubes are eventually good to go, there is still the Swiss Constitution which, as it stands, prohibits any increase in trans-Alpine road traffic capacities. That would legally bar allowing traffic on 2 x 2 lanes, i.e. the actual capacity of the two tubes. What many predict (and the greens fear ...) is that there will be a growing pressure to amend the constitution or grant an exception once both tubes are ready. After all, an artificial traffic jam is effectively nonsense.


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## g.spinoza

Corvinus said:


> ^^ I trust this will be the ultimate result, though nowhere anytime soon.
> 
> Once the new tube is completed and put into service (which will take a few years as works have not even begun), the old one will be shut down and refurbished (which is due after 40 years of service).
> 
> When at the end both tubes are eventually good to go, there is still the Swiss Constitution which, as it stands, prohibits any increase in trans-Alpine road traffic capacities. That would legally bar allowing traffic on 2 x 2 lanes, i.e. the actual capacity of the two tubes. What many predict (and the greens fear ...) is that there will be a growing pressure to amend the constitution or grant an exception once both tubes are ready. After all, an artificial traffic jam is effectively nonsense.


I really fail to see how an increase in traffic under the Gotthard can disturb the alpine environment. One thing is whether to build a tunnel or not: but since the tunnel is built anyway, 1 or 2 lanes are irrelevant.


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## ChrisZwolle

The _Alpen-Initiative_ was held in 1994. At that time the average vehicle was built in the 1980s, when there were no emission standards. Nowadays cars and trucks emit far less particles (probably over 90% less) than at the time when this referendum passed, so the Alpine environment is saved mostly by technological progress instead of artificial usage limits which only inconveniences people and trade.


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## Coccodrillo

Yes, modern vehicles emit less particles, but still a similar quantity of CO2 as 30 years ago.


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## ChrisZwolle

So there is an even bigger case for eliminating these artificial traffic jams at the tunnel portals. 

This whole issue is ideologically driven with no rationale anymore. In the future CO2 emissions will also reduce with electric vehicles.


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## Corvinus

That said, _two_ tubes with a _single_ lane of traffic each will already drastically improve safety as well as prevent a complete halt of tunnel traffic in case of an incident like a fire. I imagine in that case, the affected tube would be closed and its traffic diverted to the other, with a (then temporary) two-direction traffic flow just like today.

And the day eco-fundamentalist cards don't play anymore, CH could also raise its motorway general limit to 140 km/h. Given the overall road quality and one of Europe's strictest mandatory motor vehicle inspection process, safety would not be the issue. 
The numerous narrow and winding stretches, tunnels etc. are limited to 100 or 80 km/h, which could just stay in place regardless of the general limit. On straight open sections like A13 in the eastern part, 140-150 km/ is already a typical pace of the traffic ...


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## Suburbanist

Would a metered traffic through the tunnels, even if the Gotthard operates as 2x2, still comply with the law? Is the Alpine Initiative interpreted in terms of physical capacity, or as in Austria (a cap on the number of heavy-duty vehicle crossings)?

Market-based solutions (= tolls) can be used to control the flow of trucks, if need be.

*__*

As for pollution, electric vehicles eliminate point-of-use emissions, but at high speeds, they do not affect noise (not really an issue on highways for passenger cars with good aerodynamics) and not so much particulate pollution from tire wear (breaks particulate wear is lower due to regenerative energy generation).


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## ChrisZwolle

Suburbanist said:


> Market-based solutions (= tolls) can be used to control the flow of trucks, if need be.


There is a concept called the 'Alpine Transit Market', or _Alpentransitbörse _in German, where there is a limited amount of annual permits for truck transit traffic which are then traded to the highest bidder. However the EU doesn't seem to approve of this concept.

Meanwhile Switzerland already has a very high truck toll, with much higher tolls per kilometer than any other European country. For now this seemed to have initiated a shift towards the Brenner Pass. The Gotthard Tunnel hasn't seen much truck growth at all (even a decline) but the Brenner Pass takes the brunt of the growth of truck traffic, which is now about 4 times larger than the Gotthard despite all the restrictions implemented by Tirol.


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## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is a concept called the 'Alpine Transit Market', or _Alpentransitbörse _in German, where there is a limited amount of annual permits for truck transit traffic which are then traded to the highest bidder. However the EU doesn't seem to approve of this concept.
> 
> Meanwhile Switzerland already has a very high truck toll, with much higher tolls per kilometer than any other European country. For now this seemed to have initiated a shift towards the Brenner Pass. The Gotthard Tunnel hasn't seen much truck growth at all (even a decline) but the Brenner Pass takes the brunt of the growth of truck traffic, which is now about 4 times larger than the Gotthard despite all the restrictions implemented by Tirol.


The problem with the Apentransitboerse scheme as commonly proposed is that it could create 'incumbents' with permits they could hold on year-on-year, or get renewed at steep-discounts from spot-market rates. It would entrench existing operators against new ones, and - because truck companies are relatively cheap to establish vs. revenue amounts they earn -, financialize/securitize, indirectly permissions to cross the Alps. So you could have investors essentially holding on the permits and renting them (by whatever complicated legal arrangements and indirect schemes) to actual freight haulers. 

The alternative are rolling auctions of cross-Alpine transit capacity, which would leave freight operators unsure about their future medium-term operating costs vs. rail options.

There is also a difference in the willingness of authorities in Switzerland and Tyrol to care more about peak volumes vs. annual traffic. Because rail links are worse in the Brenner area, Tyrol cares more about peak loads on weekends/holiday/summer vs. the Swiss, which are more concerned with annual usage, even if that means dreadful Saturday afternoons from June to August (maybe because it is easy to avoid the worse effects with trains for the local population?).


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## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> So there is an even bigger case for eliminating these artificial traffic jams at the tunnel portals.
> 
> This whole issue is ideologically driven with no rationale anymore. In the future CO2 emissions will also reduce with electric vehicles.


Reducing road traffic *is* the rationale, driven by ideology, in exactly the same way that freedom to drive is an ideology. At the moment the Swiss prefer reduction in traffic. If they change their minds then so be it, but it is entirely up to them and they can do it for whatever rationale they choose


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## ChrisZwolle

The point is that the goal of the Alpen-Initiative is protecting the Alpine environment. For which technological improvements have done much more than a reduction in traffic, in fact you can argue that maintaining these artificial bottlenecks does more harm than good, environmentally-wise. It has morphed into a classical NIMBY scenario, everyone wants to live a comfortable modern life and go on vacations, but not others who have to go through their back yard to get there. 

There must be a way to expand the Gotthard Tunnel to four lanes while keeping truck traffic under the constitutional limit. In fact the current situation of maintaining a capacity bottleneck of the two-lane tunnel isn't the main limiting factor for truck traffic. Most of the time the truck lineup is pretty minimal.


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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Would a metered traffic through the tunnels, even if the Gotthard operates as 2x2, still comply with the law? Is the Alpine Initiative interpreted in terms of physical capacity, or as in Austria (a cap on the number of heavy-duty vehicle crossings)?


Article 3 of law #725.14 says that:
a) new roads that are an alternative to the sections cited in Art. 2 (basically the mountain sections of A21, A9, A2, A13) cannot be built
b) existing roads cannot be widened

Sure, laws can be changed, as shows Art. 3a which has been accepted in 2016, but what this law now says is clear.





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Fedlex







www.fedlex.admin.ch









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Fedlex







www.fedlex.admin.ch







ChrisZwolle said:


> There must be a way to expand the Gotthard Tunnel to four lanes while keeping truck traffic under the constitutional limit.


The supporters of Alpen Initiative might accept to swap 4 lanes to the respect of the truck limit, who knows? What is sure, is that according to surveys the "keep trucks away" target is supported by a majority of Swiss, even by those who approved the second tube.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Albula Pass*

I took some photos of the Albula Pass (2312 m) in Graubünden.


Albula Pass 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Albula Pass 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


Albula Pass 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


Albula Pass 12 by European Roads, on Flickr


Albula Pass 16 by European Roads, on Flickr


Albula Pass 18 by European Roads, on Flickr


Albula Pass 22 by European Roads, on Flickr


Albula Pass 29 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Coccodrillo

A tunnel has been proposed to avoid an avalanche prone section of N3/H3/H3b (or whatever name it has) near Segl/Sils im Engadin. The road is closed on average for 50 hours a year. The old road would be closed and converted to a cycle path (I don't know if they will keep the existing pavement to have a backup route or not). The estimated cost is 230 million CHF.

Ausbau offene Strecke = reconstruction of existing open air section
Austellbuchten beidseitig = parking bays every 550 metres
Querverbidungen = connections to the SiSto every 260 metres
SiSto = SichereitStollen = rescue tunnel
Anschluss an Kreisel = conenction to the existing junction

It would be nice to have a much longer tunnel to avoid the hairpins of the Maloggia/Maloja pass, but it would clearly be too expensive and they would never ever build it: Swiss Geoportal

Source: Una galleria per risolvere i problemi sulla strada del Maloja


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## ChrisZwolle

Such projects are very common in Norway, but not nearly as much in Switzerland. They usually built avalanche sheds instead of tunnels through the mountain to bypass high risk avalanche chutes.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Pfynwald*

The plans for A9 between Sierre and Susten have been approved: 





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Autoroute A9 – Tronçon Sierre Est – Loèche/La Souste Est - Décision d’approbation des plans


Le Département fédéral de l'environnement, des transports, de l'énergie et de la communication (DETEC) a clos la procédure d'approbation des plans pour la réalisation de l'autoroute A9 à travers le Bois de Finges et a approuvé le projet. Il s'agit d'une étape importante dans la construction du...




www.vs.ch





This is an 8.5 kilometer segment between Sierre-Est and Susten-Ost. 75% will be underground / covered. The cost estimate is 935 million CHF. 

This part of A9 runs through fairly flat terrain, but through the Pfynwald / Bois de Finges, a forested area, where it will be tunneled. This is the final segment of A9 to be constructed, all the others are complete or under construction.


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## Coccodrillo

Excavation of parallel Gotthard road link begins







www.tunneltalk.com


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## Corvinus

Today's snapshots of the in-progress *Tangente Zug-Baar* at its junction/underpass with the main Zug - Baar connection road.
Tangente Zug-Baar has been under construction for a few years, and it still is. Its purpose is to create a direct connection between the Aegeri valley and the A14 (previously, A4a) motorway, and thereby relieve Zug and Baar town centers from Aegeri commuters' through traffic, an additional load on their rush hour jams.

Looking east toward Aegeri. This is basically the new road, not opened yet.




















Looking north toward Baar:











Looking west toward the motorway - this is where the new road continues (emerging from the underpass and not visible from here)











Looking south toward Zug











Bonus: looking west toward Aegeri again, from a smaller road bridge 100m further in direction of the motorway. The new road is visible in the middle.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Oberalp Pass has reopened after its winter closure today. It's the first high Alpine pass to reopen after winter. The Col du Sanetsch was reported open on 20 April by TCS, but I haven't been able to find any report about that. 

Some expected opening dates;

Splügen Pass: 30 April
San Bernardino Pass: 14 May
Albula Pass: 21 May
Gotthard Pass: 21 May
Klausen Pass: 21 May
Umbrail Pass: early June
Forcola di Livigno: 7 June
Susten Pass: 25 June

Oberalp Pass:


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## ChrisZwolle

Heavy snow during the winter means that the passes open relatively late this year.

Currently still closed;


Col du Grand St. Bernard (opening was scheduled for 4 June, then canceled)
Forcola di Livigno: 7 June
Grimsel Pass: 11 June
Furka Pass: after 11 June
Nufenen Pass: 18 June
Susten Pass: 25 June

The Albula Pass was suppose to reopen today. The Klausen Pass opened on 2 June, Umbrail Pass on 28 May.


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