# MISC | Rail Maps



## [email protected]

Coccodrillo said:


> Cordoue/Cordoba-Malaga nearly completed
> Madrid-Valence/Valencia under construction
> Turin-Milan-Naples nearly or yet completed (maybe open in 2009)
> Paris-Metz-Strasbourg opens to Metz next June
> Milan-Zürich, not really HS, partly under construction
> London-Eurotunnel nearly completed (opens this year)
> Bruxelles-Amsterdam under construction
> Lyon-Turin-Milan...nobody knows!


So, do you have an up to date map without "wishes" and with real HSL (more than 250km/h) ?


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## Coccodrillo

No, but on Trainspotting Bükkes ( http://bueker.net/trainspotting/maps.php ) you can find maps of all European nations.

High-speed lines are all electrified with 25 kV AC, and, as in Spain, Italy, Netherlands and Belgium use that current only on HSL, you can easily find them (with the exception of two lines in Belgium, near Luxembourg, that also use 25 kV without being an HS line, and in Italy, Roma-Firenze is HS but electrified in 3 kV).


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## eusebius

Brussels-Amsterdam is completed though not operational yet. The opening has just been put back a further couple of months.


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## Bitxofo

In the map of Spain, you must add:

-Madrid-Toledo: done.
-Zaragoza-Huesca: done.
-Lleida-Tarragona: done.
-Barcelona-French border: under construction now.
:wink2:


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## eomer

Coccodrillo said:


> Cordoue/Cordoba-Malaga nearly completed
> Madrid-Valence/Valencia under construction
> Turin-Milan-Naples nearly or yet completed (maybe open in 2009)
> Paris-Metz-Strasbourg opens to Metz next June
> Milan-Zürich, not really HS, partly under construction
> London-Eurotunnel nearly completed (opens this year)
> Bruxelles-Amsterdam under construction
> Lyon-Turin-Milan...nobody knows!


Dijon-Mulhouse: under construction (open in 2011)


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## Karakuri

Coccodrillo said:


> Lyon-Turin-Milan...nobody knows!


Er...yes I do. The French Ministery of Equipment annouced earlier this week that the construction will start next year. First they will build the Lyon-Chambéry section, due to open in 2011 (the journey will then shrink from 1h20 to 22 minutes !!!). The rest will be connected to the Italian network later, appearently by at the latest by 2020.


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## Verso

Does the average speed of 160 km/h count as high speed? Or if not, what's that minimum speed?


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## Revas

I think high speed starts at 250 km/h...


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## Verso

^ On the other hand, it's subjective, what's fast and what's slow; in a small, not very transit country, 160 km/h should be more than enough.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Karakuri said:


> Er...yes I do. The French Ministery of Equipment annouced earlier this week that the construction will start next year. First they will build the Lyon-Chambéry section, due to open in 2011 (the journey will then shrink from 1h20 to 22 minutes !!!). The rest will be connected to the Italian network later, appearently by at the latest by 2020.


The problem is on Italian side, where Nimbys protests (supported by parties in the Governement) could stop any decisions on HSL realization


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## earthJoker

Coccodrillo said:


> Milan-Zürich, not really HS, partly under construction


The planned maximum speed for the Gotthard base tunnel is 250km/h so that's real HS.


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## GENIUS LOCI

^^
Yes, but in the Gotthard base tunnel will run even ordinary trains, will they?
So if even a little stretch has a 'mixed' used, we can't consider the line really HS...


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## Coccodrillo

The new Gotthard railway is built mainly for freight trains.

I think that passenger trains will run at no more than 200 km/h, greater speeds would reduce capacity.

And yet, the main tunnel will be passed (at 200 km/h) in 17 minutes, compared to 1h10 today via the existing line.


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## earthJoker

GENIUS LOCI said:


> ^^
> So if even a little stretch has a 'mixed' used, we can't consider the line really HS...


You only consider exclusive HS tracks as HS? The new Cisalpina will hopefully run with 250km/h throught the tunnel. Chances get lower for that if the Porta Alpina gets build (hopefully it won't).


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## Federicoft

Italian high speed rail network (TAV):









The legend reads:
Operational
U/C
Planned


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## Bitxofo

Revas said:


> I think high speed starts at 250 km/h...


According to European Union rules, high speed is 200kph or more.
:yes:
Anyway, sometimes average commercial speeds, including stops, are around 170-180kph.


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## eomer

Bitxofo said:


> According to European Union rules, high speed is 200kph or more.


Wrong: this is 250km/h.
200 km/h means "fast track" but nor "high speed track".


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## Bitxofo

^^You are wrong, with the new rules it is 200kph or more.
:yes:


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## Jape

Bitxofo said:


> ^^You are wrong, with the new rules it is 200kph or more.
> :yes:


If it's so, those maps above have several mistakes excluding Finnish HSR tracks. Since September 2006 trains between Kerava and Lahti have been able to run at 220 km/h. 









[source: RHK]









[source: RHK]

Furthermore there are several long tracks that allow trains to run slightly slower than 200 km/h.


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## gincan

The definition of HSL is basically dedicated tracks not shared with other types of traffic, ie freight, commuter, regional or slower long distance trains. This is why HSL is so expensive, it can only be used exclusively by High speed trains and require much higher safety standards. This is also the reason why most european countries yet haven't built any HSL or "high speed line".

HSL is also a financial risk, for example the Shinkansen which is the most successfull HSL network to this date have yet to turn profit. And the TGV is financially bleeding.


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## Jape

^^ So, are you saying that German ICE trains are not high-speed trains since they share tracks with other types of trains? How about Pendolinos that are used is several European countries?


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## gincan

Um no, I said that few countries in europe have real highspeed lines because they are to expensive, only France have a network as of today. The german ICE have only short sections of dedicated tracks in Germany yet, the train is highspeed but most of the tracks are not. The Pendolino in for example Finland is highspeed train on conventional tracks, it is not a highspeed line.

You have to make a diffrence between highspeed trains and highspeed tracks, without dedicated tracks the speedlimit is basically 200-250 wheras on highspeed tracks trains run at 300 and beyond.


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## Jean Luc

gincan said:


> The definition of HSL is basically dedicated tracks not shared with other types of traffic, ie freight, commuter, regional or slower long distance trains. This is why HSL is so expensive, it can only be used exclusively by High speed trains and require much higher safety standards. This is also the reason why most european countries yet haven't built any HSL or "high speed line".
> 
> HSL is also a financial risk, for example the Shinkansen which is the most successfull HSL network to this date have yet to turn profit. And the TGV is financially bleeding.


I thought that the Shinkansen and TGV were profitable. The first French HSL, the LGV Sud Est, paid for itself in ten years, AFAIK.


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## sweek

Jean Luc said:


> I thought that the Shinkansen and TGV were profitable. The first French HSL, the LGV Sud Est, paid for itself in ten years, AFAIK.


Neither one of them is profitable. I don't think there is one profitable high speed system anywhere in the world. The ICE and Italian system surely aren't either.


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## elfabyanos

France are thinking of running freight on the LGV mediterranee on the perpignan side into Spain, to increase profitability due to the forecast lower traffic levels. Would a world first - mixed use HSL.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ Roma-Firenze HS line in Italy, even if today is used only by passenger trains, was designed to be used also by freight. Design speed 250 km/h, opened february 1977, even before the Paris-Lyon TGV line (even if this was planned only for passenger from the beginning).

Also the new lines under construction (Torino-Milano-Bologna-Firenze and Roma-Napoli) were planned to be used also by freight trains.


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## Bitxofo

eomer said:


> Wrong: this is 250km/h.
> 200 km/h means "fast track" but nor "high speed track".


Not exactly, read please:


*As UiC says:

In view of infrastructure:

As regards infrastructure, the definition of high speed rail covers a number of notions. A line is currently described as a "high speed line" when it is a new one designed to enable trains to operate at speeds above 250 km/h throughout the whole journey, or at least over a significant part of the journey.

So any line, whether a new one or an upgraded conventional one, suitable for carrying traffic at up to 200 km/h, may be considered a high-speed line if it satisfies special criteria such as substantial reductions in journey time, the crossing of mountains or straits, the use of narrow gauge track, the "network effect" bonus, etc.

From the standpoint of the infrastructure high speed traffic will thus comprise all traffic running on high speed lines, regardless of the type of rolling stock used.*
:wink2:


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## earthJoker

> So any line, whether a new one or an upgraded conventional one, suitable for carrying traffic at up to 200 km/h, may be considered a high-speed line if it satisfies special criteria such as *substantial reductions in journey time, the crossing of mountains* or straits, the use of narrow gauge track, the "network effect" bonus, etc.


The Gotthard Base tunnel surely fulfills this criteria.


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## lokqw

*MISC | Railway Maps*

I love high speed railways very much,I want to collect some high speed railways route map,thank you very much(Sorry,My English is not so good:nuts: )

This is my collection:

Spanish AVE











Japanese Shinkansen











Taiwan's THSR











Korean KTX


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## poponoso

*A more detailed map of the Shinkansen network:
*


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## Alargule

Great! What are those grey lines, btw?


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## Chavito

^^ 

Lines under construction


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## sotavento

[email protected] said:


> So, do you have an up to date map without "wishes" and with real HSL (more than 250km/h) ?


"Tecnically" HSL is anything above 160/200kmh ... the high Limit now is 300/320/360kmh .. .and the "express passenger only" is just a cliché ... 

[Basicaly if you have <300km and more than 4 stops a 300kmh line is not better than a 200/250kmh ... too much cost for little gain.

>250kmh (should be called "very high speed") running only begins to compensate for 500km with few (or none in case SNCF LGV East) where it can compete with air travel times.] 

Almost NO region of europe falls in the second option ... only "la meseta" (in spain) and france.

250kmh running is pushing the envelope of mixed traffic lines to the limit ... but if you have dedicated tracks it's the "sweetspot" between Highspeed and low cost maintenance ... 

For instance imagine that you have a 4 track line and you use all 4 as mixed traffic ... if instead you put 2 for low speed regional/freight and 2 for 160/350kmh TGV ... you got an HSL ... London-Southampton should be considered a HSL as the HST(class460?) run at 160kmh (third rail is the only limitation) and almost every line on UK runs on segregated double track.

France and Germany _HAD_ a 160/200kmh prior to invest in HSL(280/320kmh) branches out of paris/Frankfurt/Hamburg ... Spain is slowly and _painstikingly_ upgrading their network to 200kmh but already built their 350kmh core lines. 

In the near future almost every main line in Europe will be a mixed double track with speeds of 200kmh or more ... only selected few wil be dedicated for high speed.


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## sotavento

gincan said:


> Um no, I said that few countries in europe have real highspeed lines because they are to expensive, only France have a network as of today. The german ICE have only short sections of dedicated tracks in Germany yet, the train is highspeed but most of the tracks are not. The Pendolino in for example Finland is highspeed train on conventional tracks, it is not a highspeed line.
> 
> You have to make a diffrence between highspeed trains and highspeed tracks, without dedicated tracks the speedlimit is basically 200-250 wheras on highspeed tracks trains run at 300 and beyond.


Paris-Lion is 100% new 300+ track ... Sevilla-Cordoba and C.Real-Madrid is 100% new 300+ track (the middle section between cordoba and C.Realis only 200kmh puting your theory to the flour) ... the freight doesn't run there for "prestige" reasons only. 
Paris-Bordeus is 25% new track and the rest is run using old 200kmh track ... since the 50's /60's the route was high speed (almost all 200kmh).

High Speed means 200kmh or more ... "new track" should alow traffic at more than 250kmh "by design" ... but the rules apply the same way to running at 160kmh and more.

- segregated track
- signaling
- no level croosings
- etc ...


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## Yardmaster

Well done Espana!


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## Bitxofo

Yardmaster said:


> Well done Espana!


Not all done yet, but in 2010!


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## ChrisH

*MISC | European High Speed Rail Map*

I've seen a few attempts in newspapers or online at mapping the expanding network of HSR in Europe, but they are always shot down as being inaccurate. What I want to know is, can we do any better? I'm sure that we can come up with a comprehensive list of lines, then someone would have to map them accurately.

Ideally I'd like to see lines in three divisions:
- 300km/h+
- 200km/h+
- less than 200km/h

(if only to make the UK look a bit better )

So how about it?


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## Trainman Dave

chrishillcoat said:


> I've seen a few attempts in newspapers or online at mapping the expanding network of HSR in Europe, but they are always shot down as being inaccurate. What I want to know is, can we do any better? I'm sure that we can come up with a comprehensive list of lines, then someone would have to map them accurately.
> 
> Ideally I'd like to see lines in three divisions:
> - 300km/h+
> - 200km/h+
> - less than 200km/h
> 
> (if only to make the UK look a bit better )
> 
> So how about it?


This is a great idea.
The problem is identifying the the specific line segments and then mapping them. I will be on vacation for the next five days. When I return in about a week, I will post my records for the the lines which support high speed operations and then other members can correct them.

After we have agreed on the lsit of lines, hopefully some will draw a map. All the maps which I have seen are very inconsistent on the status of the lines that they identify


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## elfabyanos

We need to add in 'under contruction' and 'proposed' as well.


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## Trainman Dave

elfabyanos said:


> We need to add in 'under contruction' and 'proposed' as well.


Under construction is a usfull idea but given the hundreds of start/stop and start again proposals which I have been tracking, I doubt that the cartographers could make a readable map if we included the "proposed" routes.


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## sotonsi

what would be the lower boundary of the "less than 200km/h"? 160, 180? or just anything. 160 gives you most of the London-Southampton route, plus things like Didcot-Birmingham, Bristol-Derby, the MML, etc

For the UK, 125mph (just over 200km/h) is found on the WCML, ECML and GWML. I don't know which bits aren't 125mph, though I guess none of the WCML, other than possibly the Birmingham loop (so London to Edi/Glas/Manchester), or the ECML south of Newcastle (ignoring Newcastle's 10mph approach), nor the GWML to Bristol Parkway. 300km/h is found on High Speed One between Cheriton (the Channel Tunnel portal) and St Pancras. There's also the stub end near Gravesend, which hooked it back onto the Chatham Main Line, though that's out of use, and one guesses it won't be used (though maybe for freight sometime).


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## CharlieP

That's freaky - I just came to this forum to try and find a thread I started asking the same thing a while ago: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=437226

I've started mapping high-speed lines as paths on Google Earth, which is quite fun, though only the lines from Paris to London, Cologne and Lyons are complete and accurate so far.


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## gincan

The map should also show dedicated HSR lines. I think the division between dedicated HSR line and shared line is the most important.


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## elfabyanos

Trainman Dave said:


> Under construction is a usfull idea but given the hundreds of start/stop and start again proposals which I have been tracking, I doubt that the cartographers could make a readable map if we included the "proposed" routes.


Yeah, maybe just u/c you're right.


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## CharlieP

So, does anybody else have any home-made efforts they want to share? Mine's pitifully incomplete at the moment but I'll upload it when it looks half decent.


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## ChrisH

I haven't made anything yet, but am willing to give the map-making a go, provided we get good data.

The first problem, it seems, is of definition. How do we choose 'high-speed' lines? By speed (200/250/300km/h) or segregation, or both? It seems that either will have exceptions, eg. the Gotthard Base Tunnel which will be 250km/h but have freight trains on.

Which countries will be on the map? I can think of these. I think we should only include completed projects or those actually under construction, not pipe-dreams or vague proposals. Perhaps someone could outline the status of each country's network?

France
Spain
(Portugal?)
Italy
(Switzerland?)
Germany
(Denmark?)
(Sweden?)
(Finland?)
(Norway?)
Netherlands
Belgium
UK


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## RawLee

The fastest in Hungary currently is the Wien-Budapest line,which allows 160 on some segments. Other mainlines are currently upgraded to 160.
Here's a map:
The coloured lines mean what the track is designed to endure,and the numbers are what is allowed(not meant between 2 points,but on that exact location).


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## Stifler

I have always thought it would be great to have a map of the HSR in Europe, as it is really hard to find reliable information.

I will show you a map of the Spanish HSR network in 2020, done by the forumer zoltan if I'm not wrong.









Red lines will be only used for passengers, so the speed allowed will be between 260kph and 350kph.

Most of the blue lines are designed to let a similar speed, but they will be limited to 220-250kph because of the circulation of freight trains through them.

Yellow lines are not sure to be built, but they won't be over 160kph.

Nowadays we have some of the red lines already on service:
*Madrid-Córdoba-Sevilla 
*Madrid-Zaragoza-Lleida-Tarragona 
*Madrid-Toledo (most of the railway is shared with the HSR to Sevilla)

And others going to be opened soon:
*Madrid-Valladolid (Dec2007)
*Córdoba-Málaga (Dec2007)
*Tarragona-Barcelona (likely Mar2008)


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## eusebius

chrishillcoat said:


> Netherlands


Testing

Testing

Testing

:laugh: The Schiphol-Rotterdam-Breda-Antwerp line is finished, yet we're still testing. Apart from this 'completed' line, the ICE Amsterdam-Utrecht-Arnhem-Oberhausen-Frankfurt/München will be upgraded. Amsterdam-Utrecht has already the 2 extra tracks that made the ride a lot quicker, and money for Utrecht-Arnhem/Zevenaar has been commisioned by the minister just last week. Yet, the only true HSR track is the one connecting Cologne and Frankfurt in Germany.

I don't think there'll be any real HSR tracks in NL very soon.


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## Rohne

Germany (ICE Network, only completed sections):









red: 300kph (dedicated tracks)
yellow: 250kph (dedicated tracks)
blue: 200-230kph (mostly shared tracks)
grey: rest of the network (<= 160kph)

and if you want to make a future map:

planned/ u/c projects:
Karlsruhe - Basel, 250kph (near Freiburg 200kph), partly u/c, finished 2012
Stuttgart - Ulm - Augsburg, 200-250kph, partly u/c, finished ?, incl "Stuttgart 21"
Kaiserslautern - Saarbrücken, 200kph (shared tracks), u/c, finished after 2010
Frankfurt - Mannheim, 300kph, planned, finished 2017 (a completely new connection in addition to the existing ones on AFAIK Germany's most congested railway corridor)

other projects:
Hannover - HSL Hamburg/Bremen, 300kph
Frankfurt - HSL Fulda/Würzburg, 300kph
Nürnberg - Erfurt - Leipzig, 300kph, partly u/c
Erfurt - HSL Fulda/Kassel, 160-200kph


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## [email protected]

A map with all tracks max speed, in France:
http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/pages_fr_docref_cartes_carte1.pdf


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## eomer

Rohne said:


> Germany (ICE Network, only completed sections):
> 
> and if you want to make a future map:
> planned/ u/c projects:
> Karlsruhe - Basel, 250kph (near Freiburg 200kph), partly u/c, finished 2012
> Stuttgart - Ulm - Augsburg, 200-250kph, partly u/c, finished ?, incl "Stuttgart 21"
> Kaiserslautern - Saarbrücken, 200kph (shared tracks), u/c, finished after 2010
> Frankfurt - Mannheim, 300kph, planned, finished 2017 (a completely new connection in addition to the existing ones on AFAIK Germany's most congested railway corridor)
> 
> other projects:
> Hannover - HSL Hamburg/Bremen, 300kph
> Frankfurt - HSL Fulda/Würzburg, 300kph
> Nürnberg - Erfurt - Leipzig, 300kph, partly u/c
> Erfurt - HSL Fulda/Kassel, 160-200kph


Why not a (Paris/London - Brussels - Liège) - *Köln - Dortmund - Hannover* - (Berlin) track ?


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## Rohne

Within the Ruhr area, HSR isn't possible coz of the high population (and rail station) density. And east of Dormund the trains are allready running at 200kph or more(except the section around Bielefeld - but all trains between Hannover and Dortmund stop at Bielefeld).
Also, this corridor isn't as important that a completely new HSL would be needed.


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## CharlieP

[email protected] said:


> A map with all tracks max speed, in France:
> http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/pages_fr_docref_cartes_carte1.pdf


How up-to-date is that? It shows LGV Est under construction, but not LGV Perpignan-Figueres...


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## [email protected]

CharlieP said:


> How up-to-date is that? It shows LGV Est under construction, but not LGV Perpignan-Figueres...


On the upper left corner, it is written "1st january 2007". So I guess the next release will be available in one month... 

Moreover, it's not the "max speed map" but the "tracks maps", sorry. 

The rigth one...
http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/fr_docref_anx_6_3.pdf


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## eomer

CharlieP said:


> How up-to-date is that? It shows LGV Est under construction, but not LGV Perpignan-Figueres...


Here is one









And this map that shows 
- HSR Paris-Orly-Orleans-Bourges-Clermont Ferrand / Lyon 
- TRANSLINE: Lyon/Clermont - Limoges - Bordeaux/Nantes - Rennes


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## CharlieP

eomer said:


> Here is one


That map (from the LGV2030 site) is one of the best, but it's a shame there isn't one of that quality for the whole of Europe.

This one gives a slightly wider view, but no Italian or Spanish lines:


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## Stifler

This map of the Spanish network is pretty reliable. This will be the situation in December 2007, except the track between Tarragona and Barcelona which has been delayed









Green: On service (most of them between 300kph-350kph)
Yellow: Under construction
Red: Projects for 2020.


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## Coccodrillo

CharlieP said:


> How up-to-date is that? It shows LGV Est under construction, but not LGV Perpignan-Figueres...


Perpignan-Figueras is not property of SNCF, but of TP Ferro, a private company.


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## elfabyanos

I've found some more, mainly from the French side of Wikipedia. They cover the same areas, but are quite accurate. Hopefully between all the different maps someone can put together a 100% accurate one.

Northeast France and border countries, showing accurately complete and u/c, though not rhine/rhone. 









The red line is the LGV Est, the dotted red line being uncompleted sections; black lines are classic lines that the TGVs operate on. The caption doesn't say but I assume the dotted black lines are where LGV est TGVs will go on classic lines after opening?

Closer look at yet-to-be-complete end of LGV Est









And the whole of France - not showing u/c lines in France, yet showing Zuid HSL.









SNCF site showing map of Rhine/Rhone and going over the top with showing the possible links









This is quite a decent close up of Rhin-Rhone from http://www.lgvrhinrhone.com though it doesn't mpa the south section


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## elfabyanos

This is simila to the excellent one Eomer posted on the previous page, usefully showing the projected dates actually on the mpa instead of in a key.


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## elfabyanos

This is pretty good, from www.railteam.eu









I would add obviously the last little bit to London is now complete, also the Turin - Milan section on the italian network, but some parts of LGV est, still u/c are shown as complete.


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## Bitxofo

^^In Spain, the HSL section to Málaga is going to open this December the 23rd, not in 2010.
:wink2:


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## 33Hz

^^ Likewise the link to London is open 2007, but there is an HSL shown running south from Strasbourg which doesn't exist. Also the opening date for the France-Spain LGV is now 2012.

Can anyone actually confirm the status of the line shown going from Paris to Calais (LGV Picardy)? I thought this was just talk.


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## Maxx☢Power

The Basque Y website also has maps for 2006, 2010 and 2020:

http://www.euskalyvasca.com/en/co_experiencias.html


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## Grygry

33Hz said:


> Can anyone actually confirm the status of the line shown going from Paris to Calais (LGV Picardy)? I thought this was just talk.


It is not on the last list, and got there at a first place only because De Robien was transports minister.
Munich-Ulm is U/C and Ulm Stuttgart will kick off works in 2010. I never heard of of the Stuttgart-Basel project...


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## Trainman Dave

Grygry said:


> I never heard of of the Stuttgart-Basel project...


There is a project in progress to quadruple the entire line from Karlsrhue to Basel. The nominal speed for the new lines is 250 km/h but sections will be limited to 200 km/h. 8km was completed about 10 years ago and most of the line from Karlsrhue to Offenberg is now coimplete but it is only operating at 160 km/h as the signalling for higher speeds cannot been activated untill all the engines using the line are equiped. The Offenberg to Basel section might be complete by 2012 or at least 20 years after the work began.


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## Trainman Dave

33Hz said:


> Can anyone actually confirm the status of the line shown going from Paris to Calais (LGV Picardy)? I thought this was just talk.


This line has always been political as the Picardy region was very upset about Amien being bypasses by the LGV-nord. 

If you study the existing network, the section between Vemars junction and the triangle south of Lille is rapidly becoming one of the most conjested sections of the HSL network and there will have to be an increase in capacity during the next 20-30 years. the options are tripling or quadrupling the existing line or building the LGV-picardy.

LGV-picardy would be an attractive political solution in France but it is a very poor operational solution as it only diverts the Eurostars on the Paris - London route and the TGV's to the Channel cities in France. Expanding the exisitng line would be a much more effective operational solution.


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## gincan

I think traveltimes would be a good indicator, for example Madrid-Sevilla is designated as a 300km/h but it only runs at that speed for about 10km, traveltime is 2h30m wich gives a median speed of close to 200km/h, far from the 250-260 km/h median that you have for example on the Paris-Lyon or the new Madrid-Barcelona. It would be confusing to map all HSR lines as similar when there in fact are a huge differances in between them.


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## AR1182

Trainman Dave said:


> LGV-picardy would be an attractive political solution in France but it is a very poor operational solution as it only diverts the Eurostars on the Paris - London route and the TGV's to the Channel cities in France. Expanding the exisitng line would be a much more effective operational solution.


There's a similar problem with the Paris-Lyon High-speed line, which seems to be running out of spare capacity very quickly. Recently they came up with a proposal of a second line to Lyon via central France, not as direct as the old LGV to Lyon but allowing the TGV to also reach Clermont-Ferrand and other medium size cities north of the Massif Central. Sounds more attractive than just adding another two tracks to the existing line. Unfortunately this kind of solution wouldn't work for the LGV-Picardie.


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## 33Hz

I don't recall seeing too many TGV Duplex on the LGV Nord, is that not an option for the capacity problems at first? And are SNCF still persuing the Grand Duplex?


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## Trainman Dave

33Hz said:


> I don't recall seeing too many TGV Duplex on the LGV Nord, is that not an option for the capacity problems at first? And are SNCF still persuing the Grand Duplex?


Not really as there are a large number of diverse destinations in northern france which do not generate enough traffic to support the Duplex options. SNCF is already combining and splitting trains at Arras to serve the smaller cites arrounf Lille.


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## 33Hz

In that case, why is LGV Picardy with some spurs not an option?


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## Trainman Dave

33Hz said:


> In that case, why is LGV Picardy with some spurs not an option?


The route bypasses all the large communities in the Lille region and serves only Dunkerque, Calais, Boulogne which are relatively small traffic generators when compared to the suburbs of Lille.

The Eurostar trains already carry about the same number of passengers as a pair of Duplex trains.


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## AR1182

Trainman Dave said:


> The Eurostar trains already carry about the same number of passengers as a pair of Duplex trains.


The ex-Eurostar trains used by SNCF on the LGV Nord carry up to 592 ("Regional" trainsets) or 794 ("Three capitals" trainsets) passengers. This is much less than a double Duplex, which has 1024 seats.

But, as you said, seating capacity doesn't seem to be the problem. If it was, SNCF could use some of the Duplex trainsets they recently ordered or still reconfigure the interiors of the trainsets that today run between Paris and the north, since the shorter distances don't require the same seat pitch as on trains to the east, south and west of France. 

I guess they will increasingly run double trainsets on the LGV-Nord and separate them once they have left the line. Same with Thalys and Provence-Provence TGVs.


----------



## 33Hz

There is also TGV Duplex grande capacité:

http://www.entreprise-sncf.com/sncf_demain/tgvgp.html

Maybe a solution for core routes (Lille, as you say)


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## elfabyanos

I've put it together as far as I can. At the moment I've only included HSL trackbeds actually constructed or u/c, without the upgraded classic lines connecting them all. I've also been cheeky and included the Lötschberg Base Tunnel as it will allow 250kph tilting trains which makes it HSL. Next step is to add in 200kph+ new and upgraded lines.


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## jkjkjk

elfabyanos said:


> I've put it together as far as I can. At the moment I've only included HSL trackbeds actually constructed or u/c, without the upgraded classic lines connecting them all. I've also been cheeky and included the Lötschberg Base Tunnel as it will allow 250kph tilting trains which makes it HSL. Next step is to add in 200kph+ new and upgraded lines.


Good work! Anyway, some notes:
France - from LGV Rhin-Rhone is U/C only section Mulhouse to Dijon
- LGV Perpignan-Figueres (France/Spain border) is U/C


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## AR1182

elfabyanos said:


> I've put it together as far as I can. At the moment I've only included HSL trackbeds actually constructed or u/c, without the upgraded classic lines connecting them all. I've also been cheeky and included the Lötschberg Base Tunnel as it will allow 250kph tilting trains which makes it HSL. Next step is to add in 200kph+ new and upgraded lines.


Nice work. Four observations:

- Cologne-Düren has been upgraded for 250 Km/h a few years ago. 
- Some parts of the Basel-Karlsruhe mainline are being upgraded for 250 Km/h, but I'm not sure which ones.
- You can add the new Gotthard tunnel in Switzerland since it will allow trains to run at up to250 Km/h.
- In northern Italy construction is still going on between Milan and Novara, so the high-speed line to Turin is actually in service only between Turin and Novara.


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## gincan

Good map, but I think Spain lack some lines currently UC, the Galician branch up to Santiago is UC and so is the Barcelona-French border and I also think the basque Y has started. Maybe you should ask in the Spanish infrastructure subforum as they know more in detail.


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## keber

Maybe for the legend:
It looks strange 200-249 or 250-299 km/h. Normal would be 200-240 or 250-290. Speed limits with speeds from 160 and above are rounded to 10 km/h. There is no 245 km/h speed limit. There is 240 or 250.


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## CharlieP

I'd just put 200+, 250+ and 300+...


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## elfabyanos

Portugal's is 235km/h, the Trent Valley line in the UK may soon be cleared for 217km/h operation. Some other parts of the UK may be cleared for 225km/h. A lot of Sweden's is technically 205km/h, though it's not timetabled to be operated regularly.

It does look odd, but it's accurate, the 'plus' idea might work.

Edit - Portugal is 220km/h, sorry.


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## sweek

You forgot to add the Utrecht - Amsterdam 200km/h new track that I mentioned. Great work otherwise, I'm really enjoying this. 
I'm wondering if there is anything happening in the Eastern European countries? Maybe you don't want to complicate things like that just yet.


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## elfabyanos

Yeah, sorry, people are gonna have to keep reminding me - there's too much!!! That reminds me, I still haven't done Paris -Cherbourg. I want to add as much as I can - if anyone has any info on eastern Europe? I'm especially interested in Poland.


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## elfabyanos

^^ Could you provide me with a link to confirm that line Sweek?


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## sweek

Heh, how's your Dutch?
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_het...rdubbeling_Amsterdam_.E2.80.93_Utrecht_gereed
http://www.ns.nl/servlet/Satellite?...ame=www.ns.nl/Artikel/NieuwsArtikel&c=Artikel

I found this in English, from when construction began. Construction has finished and the line is in use now.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQQ/is_12_40/ai_68704714


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## elfabyanos

About as good as my Swedish!!! Thanks for the links. To me that makes it a brand new build. Until they get the HSL sparkies in it's not a true 300km/h line IMO.


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## jkjkjk

Centralna Magistrala Kolejowa (CMK) 221 km long track from Grodzisk Mazowiecki to Zawierc. Track was build in 1971-1977 as a new dedicated transit train track (for both pax and freigh traffic), with max. speed 200 km/h (and max trainweight 5000 t). 

Anyway Poland railways had rolling stock only with max 120 km/h in that time. Track was used mainly for freight (in 1980 73 freight/4 pax trains daily), later more pax train appeared, now more pax trains than freight (charge for the use of railway infrastructure for CMK are two times higher than on old 20 km longer track) From 1984 140 km/h rolling stock is used, from 160 km/h. 

Now, still 200 km/h is possible, but still no rolling stock for that. Easy upgrade for 250 km/h is planned.


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## Trainman Dave

More comments:
Hanover to Wurzburg is operated at speeds greater than 250 km/h. I have watched the speed displays at 270-280 km/h on this route.

Karlshrue to Basel is complicated as the new fast route crosses the old main line several times. I would describe the two route as braided.

Austria: Wien to Sankt Polten is under construction
Sankt Polten to Linz is not yet complete but about 60% is in operation with LBZ signaling for 200km/h
Linz to Wels was upgraded about 10 years ago but the LBZ signaling is fairly new.
Wels to Salzburg is in the national plan but construction to upgrade the line (other than regular maintenance) has not been announce yet.

Keep up the good work Elf!

One problem to beware of is the staging of upgrading traditional mainlines. It is very common for civil engineering to preceded the instalation of the signaling and the spower supply upgrades by many years. Only when all three have been completed can the line be considered for the fully upgraded. 
Unforutnately each country has different reporting systems and it can be very frustrating trying to be consistent.


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## elfabyanos

Thanks jkjkjk - are PKP procuring 200km/h trains for this route? If so I'll add it. I'm adding the Warsaw - Gdynia route u/c upgrade to 200km/h.

Trainman Dave - Hannover - Wurzburg is already listed as 250 - 299km/h.

Thanks for the clarification on Wels - Wien. I've fudged it, in the lack of details at which bits aren't complete I've just made it complete with a few random breaks.

As this map goes forward hopefully with other's help a cosistent method may develop for classifications of prop,app,u/c and complete just as we have for skyscrapers. Although there will always be grey areas.


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## elfabyanos

Changes include:

Slightly different colour scheme - the upgrade lines now go from dark to light as the linespeed increases to match the blue scheme for new builds.
France - added the upgraded route 200km/h Paris - Cherbourg.
UK - Changed status of Doncaster - York to new build due to the new diversion away from Selby.
Poland - Added Warsar - Gdynia.
Austria - Made changes to Wels - Wien line to more accurately reflect current status.
Netherlands - Added Amsterdam - Utrecht new build 200km/h quadrupling of existing trackbed.
Spain - possibly some changes, I can't remember!

I have all the info I need for Finland's 200 - 220 km/h upgraded lines. I am looking to find some accurate information on Norway and Denmark (still haven't got to sorting Sweden out). Any info on eastern european countries greatly appreciated.


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## Toneo

^ Madrid-Albacete-Alicante and Albacete-Valencia are being built.


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## ChrisH

It's looking great! At the moment the colours of the lines seem the wrong way round, but if you're going to add black lines for slower tracks then it should make sense. Keep it up!  I would also say that the speed key would make more sense as 200+, 250+, 300+.


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## Skylandman

Nice work, thanks for sharing it!


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## Euklidisk

The map is getting really nice, elfabyanos!

This speed map is from the Danish rail authority Bane Danmark (pdf):
http://www.bane.dk/db/filarkiv/332/Hastighed.pdf

The Öresund Bridge is 200 km/h on the Swedish side, and to Malmö.


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## 33Hz

The Euromed service on the Spanish east coast is a 220km/h upgraded route, not the in-service 300km/h route that you are showing.


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## elfabyanos

ToNeo said:


> ^ Madrid-Albacete-Alicante and Albacete-Valencia are being built.


Thanks, what is the speed?

@ Euklidisk and 33hz, thanks for the info.


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## zoltan

Spain

*New build lines*:
Madrid - Ciudad Real: 300
Ciudad Real - Córdoba: 270
Cordoba - Sevilla 250
La Sagra - Toledo: 270
Madrid - Camp de Tarragona: 350
Córdoba - Antequera : 350

*New build lines U/C*:
Ourense - Santiago: 350
La Robla - Pola de Lena (Variante de Pajares): 350
Madrid - Valladolid: 350
Córdoba - Málaga: 350
Camp de Tarragona - Barcelona - France border: 350
Euskal Y: 270
Olmedo - Zamora: 350
Mérida - Badajoz: 300
Antequera - Granada: 300
Xátiva - Valencia: 300
Vandellos - Camp de Tarragona: 300
La Encina - Alicante: 300
Madrid - Montilla - Albacete: 350
Montilla - Valencia: 350

*Upgraded lines*:
- Alcazar de San Juan - Albacete - La Encina: 200 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
- La Encina - Xativa: 220 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
- Badajoz - Aljuacen: 200 
- Zaragoza - Tardienta: 200 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
- Valencia - Vandellos: 220 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)


*Upgraded lines U/C*:
- La Coruña - Vigo: 250
- Sevilla - Cadiz: 250
- Marchena - Antequera: 250
- Alcazar de San Juan - Santa Cruz de Mudela: 250
- Valdollano - Linares: 250
- Zaragoza - Teruel: 250
- Murcia - Lorca: 250


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## elfabyanos

^^ Marvelous thank you!


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## Mattboy

Great work elfabyanos, but does it really matter if a line is new or upgraded? Why not make it simpler? Just a thought.


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## Euklidisk

Mattboy said:


> Great work elfabyanos, but does it really matter if a line is new or upgraded? Why not make it simpler? Just a thought.


Mabye separate mixed and non-mixed with freight instead. Passenger only often has higher grades. I dont know, but it may be unusual with non mixed =<250 and mixed >250 making that devide meaningless?


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## elfabyanos

Mattboy said:


> Great work elfabyanos, but does it really matter if a line is new or upgraded? Why not make it simpler? Just a thought.


I believe it really does. Upgraded lines tend to have many handicaps that included flat junctions, occasional speed restrictions due to corners, stations (that usually have flat junctions and speed restrictions!), mixed traffic including stopping trains and freight, clasic signalling systems, the classic power supply (often a lower voltage or DC which hampers performance such as acceleration for multi-voltage trains like TGVs and ICE3s), often restricted clearance (so no TGV duplex) etc etc.

On the other hand new build lines tend to have grade separated junctions, high speed only traffic (though there are exceptions - especially on sections where a new line is needed but the passenger traffic is not enough to get a quick enough return on investment aswell as freight desperately needing access too, like Perpignan - Figueras), consistent line speeds with few tight corners requiring speed restrictions, modern power supply and signalling systems.

It is a lot of hard work, and at the moment the map looks complicated. I am however working on a colour scheme that wil be visually a lot more intuitive - one colour each for new and upgraded lines, with a matching key of 'darkness' for a particular speed - as in 200km/h will be almost an almost grey example of the colour (whether it's new build or upgrade), whereas 300km/h will be a vibrant colour.


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## Trainman Dave

Grreat work Elf

I hope you can keep your sanity with all this input:nuts:

Poland: the CMK was constructed with civil engineering for 250km/h but to save money there were many poorly protected level crossings. Three years ago there were still some unprotected level crossings which would prevent operations at 200km/h along the whole route. I have not found any reports which indicate that they have been replaced and the route finnaly upgraded for 250km/h.

France: You are showing the Paris to Lyon Line as 300km/h. When was this upgraded fro 300 km/h operations. When it was built the TVM siganling was limited to 270km/h and it was not upgraded during the major renovations in the early 2000's. Further there are sections of the route from from Lyon to Avignon which are limited by their curves to 270km/h

Portugal: the Lisboa to Porto route has only a very few stretches which are upgraded for 220 km/h. During the project to upgrade the lines it was discovered that the ground was to unstable in the Tagus valley to support higher speeds with the engineering design and the speed were not increased over much of the route

I my experience the only way to keep track of the actual operating speeds on each route segment is to locate the infrastructure descriptions for open access operation (mainly freight today). These documents are hard to come by and fall out of date quickly. I think that you will drive your self crazy trying to accurately distinguish the variations of the operating speeds at greater that 250km/h but if you do I will try locate these details over time


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## Trainman Dave

On consideration I have found that only three speed groups seem to be usefull when categorizing the routes:

160 km/h and slower
Increasing speed beyond 160 km/h reguires enhanced signaling systems for most railway administrations

161 km/h to 249 km/h
This intermediate group covers all the routes which are upgraded for used by High Speed Trains in this speed range. It also includes new tracks which have not been constructed primarily for long distance, limited stop, high speed trains.

250 km/h and faster
All routes with operating speeds of 250km/h or more have constructed specifically for High Speed running. This might change in the future but I don't know of any proposals for upgrading exisiting tracks for speeds of greater than 230 km/h (Hamburg to Berlin)

As with any classification system this is not perfect but I have foundover the last twenty years that it is fairly simple to determine which of these three categories all the railway engineering projects fall. This is important as Railway administrations tend gloss over problems and pesky little details in their press releases. One of the details commonly omitted are the actual speed limits the new route which have just been opened.


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## 33Hz

Trainman Dave said:


> France: You are showing the Paris to Lyon Line as 300km/h. When was this upgraded fro 300 km/h operations. When it was built the TVM siganling was limited to 270km/h and it was not upgraded during the major renovations in the early 2000's. Further there are sections of the route from from Lyon to Avignon which are limited by their curves to 270km/h


The LGV PSE was definitely upgraded to TVM 430 signalling during the 2001 rebuild and is operated at 300 km/h max, although the French wikipedia says that there is still a 270 km/h limit over 100km of the route, without being more specific.

http://perso.orange.fr/florent.brisou/LGV-PSE.htm gives some info on the legs and their speeds (see Vitesses maximales at the bottom of the page).

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/florent.brisou/Lignes.htm has links to the other lines.


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## Castle_Bravo

elfabyanos -> about the CMK line in Poland (it's in Polish, but the numbers are the same ;P) http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMK
In a new plan the whole line will be upgrated to 250km/h to 2014 (the south part a few years earlier). Next year PKP Intercity will buy new trains (they will arrive in 2010), with the Pendolino system, with max. speed= 250 . 
PS: During a test in 1994 the Italian Pendolino reached 250,1km/h which is the highest speed in central europe 
PS2: Actualy they are upgrading bridges in the south part of the line 
PS3: http://www.ic.rail.pl/album_cat.php?cat_id=3&sort_method=pic_time&sort_order=DESC&start=0 here are some pictures of the line.


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## eomer

Trainman Dave said:


> France: You are showing the Paris to Lyon Line as 300km/h. When was this upgraded fro 300 km/h operations. When it was built the TVM siganling was limited to 270km/h and it was not upgraded during the major renovations in the early 2000's. Further there are sections of the route from from Lyon to Avignon which are limited by their curves to 270km/h


- Paris-Lyon was mostly upgraded to 300 km/h in 2001 for the oppening of LGV Med (Valence-Marseille). Between Passilly (junction to Dijon) and Macon (junction to Genève), the speed limit is still 270 km/h. 
- Between Lyon and Avignon, this is 300 km/h and there is a 40 km section that allows 320 km/h.


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## elfabyanos

Trainman Dave said:


> Grreat work Elf
> 
> I hope you can keep your sanity with all this input:nuts:
> 
> France: You are showing the Paris to Lyon Line as 300km/h. When was this upgraded fro 300 km/h operations. When it was built the TVM siganling was limited to 270km/h and it was not upgraded during the major renovations in the early 2000's. Further there are sections of the route from from Lyon to Avignon which are limited by their curves to 270km/h


There's lots, thats for sure!!! This thread is becoming a reference source for all sorts of data from all accross europe! 

Anyway, re. Paris - Lyon; In my opinion it's a new build - as in the line is designed to modern standards. What I mean by an 'upgraded' line is specifically upgraded from a classic line, upgrades of new high speed lines are not included in this definition, as there is basically no effective difference between this line and an HSL that started out at 300km/h.


With regards the categorisation, I have chosen 200km/h as a starting point because this is a generally well known threshold for what is a fast rail service, indeed this is the USA's official definition. If I were to include everything that's 160km/h and above I would have to include all sorts of random lines like Tonbridge to Ashford (linespeed 160km/h, average speed of a service on it approx 100-120km/h, not exactly awesome) which aren't exactly going to be representative of the cutting edge of high speed travel in the 21st century. I've divided it up into 50km/h ranges which to me is quite intuitive. It's going to be hard getting accurate info, and I'm going to have to specify a certain degree of inaccuracy w/respect to upgrade lines, but I'm really thankful for everyone's help - it wouldn't be possible without it. Hopefully it will all make sense in the end.

Thanks for the updates 33Hz, Castle_Bravo and eomer.


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## zfreeman

This is fantastic Elf!

It just goes to show how much we still need to do in the UK.

I'm suprised that Edinburgh - Glasgow isn't connected by a higher speed line.


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## elfabyanos

Considerable changes to Spain - Zoltan (or anyone else) I would be greatlful if I could have some feedback on the accuracy if the changes (I'll get the geography correct later).

I've added a line u/c to Poland, and coloured in the sea which is THE most iimportant change so far.

Updates still in the pipeline - Sweden, Finland, bit of Italy, some more Poland, Denmark.

@Zfreeman, I thought there was a proposal to electrify an old line? In fact I thought funding had been approved by Holyrood?


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## Mattboy

Southeastern Europe is under the sea now XDD


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## Castle_Bravo

elfabyanos 
Actually the CMK is a new line (opened in 1977, ok it's one year earlier than in your limits, but it's build in an other way than "classic" lines)
BTW: Thanks for adding it 
PS: Anyone know when the line from Brussel to Antwerp will be build?


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## keber

In Italy there is Pontebbana between Udine and Tarvisio (border with Austria), which is new line (finished in year 2000) for 200 km/h operation. Old one was dismantled.


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## elfabyanos

Maybe sinking Eastern Europe was taking artistic licence a wee bit too far.

Castle_Bravo - the 1978 date isn't a deadline, but just the date of the Direttissima, which I thought was the oldest high speed route in Europe. I shall review the CMK to see if it should be regarded as a modern standard high speed line (even the direttissima stretches the definitioin in some respects).

Thanks for the update Keber, I shall add it. In fact I think there are a number of Alpine tunnel routes built or u/c that need adding to the map.


----------



## Castle_Bravo

The CMK was created special for heavy freight trains and fast Intercitys. It connects the industrial part of Poland (Silesia) with the Capital-> Warsaw. It's build far away from other cities and it has only one station opened in 2006 (but actually no one use it ). The curves are very wide (above 4 km), and now the freight trains take other routes so it sounds like a HSR line, but the technology used in the '70 was not good enough to say that it's a real HSR line, becouse they spare money, and now there are around 20 crossings with roads (they will change them into tunels), and no special security systems that are used on "real" HSR lines. 
So i will call it an unfinished HSRline in use for 30 years ;P, but in a few years it would be finished


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## Blue Viking

elfabyanos said:


>


Great map, Elfabyanos!

Now spot the missing link - hint: it's between Germany and Sweden.. :nuts: Well, we'll just have to plug it with a Maglev


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## zfreeman

Blue Viking said:


> Great map, Elfabyanos!
> 
> Now spot the missing link - hint: it's between Germany and Sweden.. :nuts: Well, we'll just have to plug it with a Maglev



They could just extend the HS line through to Denmark to link in with the Oresunde Bridge and tunnel (i think that already has space for a train line - but hadn't been built yet ???) - Can anyone confirm?


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## elfabyanos

Changes:

Yet another change to the colour scheme.
Eastern Europe has resurfaced.
UK, Italy, France, Benelux, Germany - added in classic lines served by trains that use the high speed lines for part of their journey.
Italy - added the pontybarny thing at Udine.

After deliberation I've decided to keep the CMK in Poland as a classic line.

Still to come - Norway, Denmark, Russia, Sweden fixes, Switzerland fixes, classic lines in all other countries.


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## jkjkjk

more about central Europe - no more than 160 km/h
Czech Republic 
- 3 main tracks upgraded to 160 km/h, more 160 km/h upgrades U/C
- CD (Czech Railways) has triple-voltage 200 km/h Pendolinos, operating now in Czech Rep., Slovakia and Austria, but nowhere at 200 km/h
-outer circuit of Velim testing circuit (13,3 km long) is cetrified on 200 km/h (half on 230 km/h) 
Slovakia
- one 50 km track upgraded to 160 km/h, others upgrades U/C
Hungary
- some 160 km/h upgrades, more upgrades U/C
Slovenia
- some 160 km/h upgraded tracks operated by Pendolino
Croatia
- some 160 km/h upgrades, more upgrades U/C


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## wstretnykomuch

I can assure you there's no HSR line in Poland nor there will be any till 2015.

CMK is for 160 kmh and Warsaw-Gdansk is for 120 kmh only, it is being upgraded now but in a "standard" polish schedule which means first train going faster than 120 kmh will go there no earlier than in 10 years. Even when completed it is designed for 140/160 kmh only and 200kmh in some parts for tilt-body trains.


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## Trainman Dave

Zibou said:


> * Poitiers-Niort-La Rochelle : 110-140
> 
> * In eastern France, lines are often limited to 120 (except a few stretches allowing 140-160)
> 
> All of those informations come from the map published by RFF.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I have been looking at this map and I would suggets that in eastern france you need to add:
> 
> * Strasbourg - Mulhouse : 161- 220
> 
> There is an inconsistency between the RFF press announcements and this map. I believe that it is caused by the age of the map which appears to completed in 2001. (note the effectivity of the map is through 1 december 2008).
> 
> Since 2001 the route between Potiers and Niort has been upgraded for 160-220 operations acording to the RFF press releases.


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## Zibou

Thanks for the info, I was unaware of these upgrades. 
By the way, work on the new HSR between Paris (Tours) and Bordeaux is due to start in 2009 on the Tours-Angoulême section, and 2012 for the Angoulême-Bordeaux one. The line will be fully completed in 2016 and will allow a travel speed of 300-320 kph. The connection to Spain will probably not see the light of day before 2020 at best.
See : http://www.lgvsudeuropeatlantique.org/


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## Revas

> in 2009 on the Tours-Angoulême section, and 2012 for the Angoulême-Bordeaux one


Actually, its 2009 for Angoulême-Bordeaux and 2012 for Tours-Angoulême. Don't ask me why...


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## OettingerCroat

great map! :banana:


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## elfabyanos

Trainman Dave said:


> I have been looking at this map and I would suggets that in eastern france you need to add:
> 
> * Strasbourg - Mulhouse : 161- 220


It's on there, I really need to sort out the colours, you keep pointing out things that are already on there.


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## growingup

For elfabyanos: there's a great map about spanish classic lines, HSL on service, on works, and planned, and upgrading projects made by two spanish forumers. Here you have it:








There are also a 4 MB and 10 MB map view to see it in full detail. I think this would be very useful for you. I hope you like it.
4 MB picture.
10 MB picture.


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## zoltan

Update: Today

Spain

*New build lines*:
Madrid - Ciudad Real: 300
Ciudad Real - Córdoba: 270
Cordoba - Sevilla 250
La Sagra - Toledo: 270
Madrid - Camp de Tarragona: 350
Córdoba - Málaga : 350
Madrid - Valladolid: 350


*New build lines U/C*:
Ourense - Santiago: 350
La Robla - Pola de Lena (Variante de Pajares): 350
Camp de Tarragona - Barcelona - France border: 350
Euskal Y: 270
Olmedo - Zamora: 350
Mérida - Badajoz: 300
Antequera - Granada: 300
Xátiva - Valencia: 300
Vandellos - Camp de Tarragona: 300
La Encina - Alicante: 300
Madrid - Montilla - Albacete: 350
Montilla - Valencia: 350

*Upgraded lines*:
- Alcazar de San Juan - Albacete - La Encina: 200 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
- La Encina - Xativa: 220 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
- Badajoz - Aljuacen: 200 
- Zaragoza - Tardienta: 200 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
- Valencia - Vandellos: 220 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)


*Upgraded lines U/C*:
- La Coruña - Vigo: 250
- Sevilla - Cadiz: 250
- Marchena - Antequera: 250
- Alcazar de San Juan - Santa Cruz de Mudela: 250
- Valdollano - Jaén: 250
- Zaragoza - Teruel: 250
- Murcia - Lorca: 250


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## elfabyanos

That's excellent - thanks guys.


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## Zibou

zoltan said:


> Update: Today
> 
> Spain
> 
> *New build lines*:
> Madrid - Ciudad Real: 300
> Ciudad Real - Córdoba: 270
> Cordoba - Sevilla 250
> La Sagra - Toledo: 270
> Madrid - Camp de Tarragona: 350
> Córdoba - Málaga : 350
> Madrid - Valladolid: 350
> 
> 
> *New build lines U/C*:
> Ourense - Santiago: 350
> La Robla - Pola de Lena (Variante de Pajares): 350
> Camp de Tarragona - Barcelona - France border: 350
> Euskal Y: 270
> Olmedo - Zamora: 350
> Mérida - Badajoz: 300
> Antequera - Granada: 300
> Xátiva - Valencia: 300
> Vandellos - Camp de Tarragona: 300
> La Encina - Alicante: 300
> Madrid - Montilla - Albacete: 350
> Montilla - Valencia: 350
> 
> *Upgraded lines*:
> - Alcazar de San Juan - Albacete - La Encina: 200 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
> - La Encina - Xativa: 220 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
> - Badajoz - Aljuacen: 200
> - Zaragoza - Tardienta: 200 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
> - Valencia - Vandellos: 220 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
> 
> 
> *Upgraded lines U/C*:
> - La Coruña - Vigo: 250
> - Sevilla - Cadiz: 250
> - Marchena - Antequera: 250
> - Alcazar de San Juan - Santa Cruz de Mudela: 250
> - Valdollano - Jaén: 250
> - Zaragoza - Teruel: 250
> - Murcia - Lorca: 250


It's amazing how fast railway construction (especially HSR) is going in Spain. France will get a decent one - meaning it will not only the Lille-Paris-Marseilles corridor - around 2020-2025 if fundings are secured (it took 40 years for the country to get a proper expressway network...)

A few maps for France (from RFF website, PDF files, some of them may take a while to load with a slow connection)
* http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/fr_docref_anx_6_4.pdf Maximum speeds on the railway lines
* http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/fr_docref_anx_6_5.pdf Electrified lines
* http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/fr_docref_anx_6_14.pdf Current HSR network
* http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/pages_fr_docref_cartes_carte1.pdf Current railway network 

And another interesting map, still from RFF, indicating in dotted lines the planned itinerary of the 
* LGV Est Second Phase, LGV to Rennes, 
* LGV Rhin Rhone, 
* LGV to Chambéry (this one is still on the drawing board, and is part of the Lyon-Turin rail link), 
* Montpellier-Nimes bypass (expected to be opened in 2013, huge funding issues since several years, this section was originally planned to be built directly with the LGV Méditerranée in 1995-2001) and 
* Bourg en Bresse - West of Nantua (upgrade of an existing railway, it will stay single-track for most of its length but will provide faster connection to Geneva by shortening the travel time of TGV from Paris)
http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/rf_inv_r_carte.pdf


----------



## OettingerCroat

zoltan said:


> Update: Today
> 
> Spain
> 
> *New build lines*:
> Madrid - Ciudad Real: 300
> Ciudad Real - Córdoba: 270
> Cordoba - Sevilla 250
> La Sagra - Toledo: 270
> Madrid - Camp de Tarragona: 350
> Córdoba - Málaga : 350
> Madrid - Valladolid: 350
> 
> 
> *New build lines U/C*:
> Ourense - Santiago: 350
> La Robla - Pola de Lena (Variante de Pajares): 350
> Camp de Tarragona - Barcelona - France border: 350
> Euskal Y: 270
> Olmedo - Zamora: 350
> Mérida - Badajoz: 300
> Antequera - Granada: 300
> Xátiva - Valencia: 300
> Vandellos - Camp de Tarragona: 300
> La Encina - Alicante: 300
> Madrid - Montilla - Albacete: 350
> Montilla - Valencia: 350
> 
> *Upgraded lines*:
> - Alcazar de San Juan - Albacete - La Encina: 200 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
> - La Encina - Xativa: 220 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
> - Badajoz - Aljuacen: 200
> - Zaragoza - Tardienta: 200 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
> - Valencia - Vandellos: 220 (in the future 250 with ERTMS)
> 
> 
> *Upgraded lines U/C*:
> - La Coruña - Vigo: 250
> - Sevilla - Cadiz: 250
> - Marchena - Antequera: 250
> - Alcazar de San Juan - Santa Cruz de Mudela: 250
> - Valdollano - Jaén: 250
> - Zaragoza - Teruel: 250
> - Murcia - Lorca: 250


this is amazing... spain is making extreme infrastructural progress.... congrats!


----------



## Blue Viking

Yes, Spain is really amazing in this discipline!

@ Elfabyanos
It might be a small issue, but to make the map consistent, shouldn't the high speed parts on the Swedish network be connected by black lines? And in this case, there should also be a black line to Copenhagen since the X2000 crosses over the bridge between Sweden and Denmark.

There will probably be a lot of black lines in the map soon. I'd love to see two versions of the map - one with and one without the black lines. But it can wait till the map is finished.


----------



## elfabyanos

^^ Sweden is going to get a complete overhaul (eventually). Do you have any further info about Denmark (of which I currently have none!!!)?


----------



## Blue Viking

Ok, fine! And once again thank you for doing af great job elfabyanos and everyone else in here who has contributed to the map.

According to the map below (sorry in Danish only), the maximum speed in Denmark is 180 km/h. So no reason wasting your time doing too much research on Denmark 










There are some plans of building a new high speed connection to Rødby where the coming bridge to Germany will originate. But there's no final decision yet. And I don't know whether that connection might be 200 km/h or perhaps even more.

Happy new year everyone!! :cheers:


----------



## lpioe

Great job elfabyanos kay:

One small correction:The Lötschberg Tunnel in Switzerland is in full service since the start of December.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

About the map; 

In the Netherlands you can see a blue dotted line, that's true. The other 2 lines to the south and southeast do carry high speed rail services, but are limited to 140km/h.


----------



## Blue Viking

I can't remember if its already been mentioned but there's also the airport train in Oslo which runs at a speed of up to 210 km/h: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flytoget

Elfabyanos, are you still hungover from New Year? :lol: Get back to work!  We need you back.


----------



## earthJoker

BTW the Lötschbergtunnel is open since 9th of December.


----------



## elfabyanos

^^^ I believe I've added that but haven't put it up.



Blue Viking said:


> I can't remember if its already been mentioned but there's also the airport train in Oslo which runs at a speed of up to 210 km/h: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flytoget
> 
> Elfabyanos, are you still hungover from New Year? :lol: Get back to work!  We need you back.



Hehe, I'm glad there's still an interest! I've been well busy, before Christmas I was ill a lot which gave me time to do it. I've done a small update I'll try and upload later. To be honest I'm just scared of tackling Sweden! I've got too much stuff to go through!


----------



## Kantabro_83

I hope u like it



Red lines are new high speed lines able for speeds +250 km/h in year 2010
Green lineas will be the same but in year 2020

Light blue lines are new built or uprgraded lines able for speeds between 180 and 250 km/h in 2010
Dark blue lines will be yhe same in 2020

Blue (light and dark) lines will be generally upgraded lines but there are exceptions. Iberian lines will be changed to UIC gauge


----------



## elfabyanos

Here's the next update. It's a GIF now, hopefully that'll give better distinction of lines that are similar brightness to the background. Added: Geneva - rest of Switzerland. All of Switzerland has been re-jigged - the upgrade line now goes from where it goes rather than somewhere else where it was before (does that make sense?) Spain - grey lines added, status changed on a few sections. I've changed the Direttisima to 250-upgrading-to-300, on the Railway Technology site it says it's being upgraded with change in power to AC and curve alterations.












> -The GWML branch to Torquay and Paignton is served by occasional FGW HSTs direct from London.
> 
> -There are direct NXEC ECML services between London and Inverness, routed via Edinburgh, Falkirk, Stirling, Perth and Aviemore.
> 
> -NXEC serve Bradford, there should be a short branch of grey from Leeds.
> 
> -Cross Country trains operate a direct Birmingham to Glasgow service via Leeds. This goes via Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Westfield, Leeds, then north east to join the ECML at York to continue via Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow.
> 
> -East Midlands trains operate direct London to Leeds HSTs via Sheffield and Doncaster and direct London to York Meridians also via Sheffield and Doncaster, thereby allowing the whole Midland Mainline route to be included.
> 
> -The loop of the WCML through Northampton sees Virgin Pendolino services.


Cool, I didn't realise, will add.



> -The last few miles into Manchester are surely not 200km/h? (I could be wrong)


I'm not sure either - can anyone clarify?



> -Perhaps dashed grey lines in Kent where the Javelin will go next year?


Good idea.

I won't include diversionary route at the moment, presuming they don't serve new stations on the alternative routes it might just make loads of work if I had to do this all accross Europe, and undo it again later!!!

Re. XC to Brighton, that's great news - I might even go and take a photo of one!


----------



## elfabyanos

^^ Just looked at the timetable for East Midland Trains, I can see the 3 Leeds - London services (in direct competition with NXEC - how exciting!!) but I can't see the York service? The Brighton XC is with us until May at least. I have a sorry feeling they will then discontinue it


----------



## 33Hz

elfabyanos said:


> ^^ Just looked at the timetable for East Midland Trains, I can see the 3 Leeds - London services (in direct competition with NXEC - how exciting!!) but I can't see the York service? The Brighton XC is with us until May at least. I have a sorry feeling they will then discontinue it


Saturdays

London d 6:20 - York a 10:16
York d 17:40 - London a 21:52

Sundays

York d 16:40 - London a 21:37 (d 17:25 from 30th March)


----------



## elfabyanos

^^ I would only check monday to fridays wouldn't I!!!!


----------



## Coccodrillo

It is not sure that the Direttissima will be converted to 25 kV.

Part of this line allow 300 km/h, but not the whole line.


----------



## elfabyanos

^^ This is from http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/italy/



> The Italian high-speed era began with the 252km (157-mile) Rome-Florence 'Direttissima', the first dedicated high-speed line in Europe when opened in 1978. However, with a decision to change the system from the Italian electrification standard of 3,000V dc and go for higher speeds, this pioneering line has required heavy upgrading for 300km/h (186mph) operation.


However, even the Italian wikipedia has little information to back this up. I've sent an email to the website to see if they have any further information. They seem quite reputable as they're more industry based rather than enthusiast based.


----------



## growingup

elfabyanos, you forgot in your new version that Málaga line is on service since the 24th of December. I think someone have already told you.
Great update, by the way


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## elfabyanos

^^ Damn I knew I forgot something. I did all the updates then the computer crashed. I forgot it the second time around sorry!


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## Hubert Pollak

Turkey and Russia also constructs high speed lines


----------



## elfabyanos

Hi. A few more corrections. I've reverted the direttissima until I find out any more information. It would be exciting for it to be converted. Otherwise, will the AGV be running over this stretch dual voltage?


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## 33Hz

Good update. You can make Barcelona HSL a solid line now 

Don't forget Reading-Guildford-Gatwick and Edinburgh-Inverness too.


----------



## Booze

Madrid - Barcelona is in full service since today. No problems occured and the speed of 300Km/h was sustained for almost 600Km :yes: 

The way towards 350Km/h ERMTS II starts now.


----------



## Gamma-Hamster

http://www.gudok.ru/index.php/news/9988


> *Siemens в декабре поставит РЖД первый скоростной поезд для линии Петербург-Москва*
> 
> По словам В.Андреева, к декабрю текущего года РЖД завершит создание инфраструктуры на линии Санкт-Петербург - Москва в рамках организации скоростного движения.


First "Velaro Rus" train set by Siemens will be delivered to Russian Railroads in december 2008.
Completion of upgrade of Moscow-St.Petersburg line that will allow trains to move at speed up to 250-300km/h is also scheduled to december 2008.


----------



## Trainman Dave

33Hz said:


> -The last few miles into Manchester are surely not 200km/h? (I could be wrong)


the WCRM project to upgrade the Manchester branch ended at Cheadle Hume just south of Stockport


----------



## Zibou

Gamma-Hamster said:


> http://www.gudok.ru/index.php/news/9988
> 
> First "Velaro Rus" train set by Siemens will be delivered to Russian Railroads in december 2008.
> Completion of upgrade of Moscow-St.Petersburg line that will allow trains to move at speed up to 250-300km/h is also scheduled to december 2008.


Will that be a continuous cruising speed between the two cities, or just a "top speed" on certain upgraded segments of the line ?


----------



## Gamma-Hamster

Zibou said:


> Will that be a continuous cruising speed between the two cities, or just a "top speed" on certain upgraded segments of the line ?


I don't really know. I guess it is "top speed" but i may be wrong.


----------



## Trainman Dave

Zibou said:


> Will that be a continuous cruising speed between the two cities, or just a "top speed" on certain upgraded segments of the line ?



I have been trying to determine how much of the route from Moscow to St Petersberg has been upgraded for nearly ten years. Grand annoucements of investment in this line are made in the foreign press but usually the actual allocation of funds falls far short of the these annoucments.

About 20% of the route appears to have re-routed and built to standards that might allow operations at about 250+ km/h.

About 60% of the route has probably been upgraded and re-signalled to support operations at 200 km/h. However only one train is scheduled to operate with timings which would suggest that it is actually running at speeds approaching 200 km/h. 

I hope some one can cite a source which would provide specific information about the current status of this route


----------



## Gamma-Hamster

Trainman Dave said:


> Grand annoucements of investment in this line are made in the foreign press but usually the actual allocation of funds falls far short of the these annoucments.


"Russian Railroads" plans to build a new high speed line between Moscow and St. Petersburg so "grand annoucements of investment" may not be related to current line.



> About 60% of the route has probably been upgraded and re-signalled to support operations at 200 km/h.


It supported operations at 200km/h before the upgrade, there was a high-speed train called "Nevsky Express" travelling at speeds up to 190-200km/h


----------



## jkjkjk

Today that 200 km/h max train is making 639 km route Moscow - St Petersburg at 4:30 - average speed app. 144 km/h


----------



## Chafford1

Zibou said:


> Will that be a continuous cruising speed between the two cities, or just a "top speed" on certain upgraded segments of the line ?


The Russians are purchasing 8 Siemens 'Velaro RUS' Trains which will run between Moscow and St Petersburg at a maximum speed of *250kmh (155mph).*

Full description of trains below:

http://w1.siemens.com/pool/en/whats_new/features/moscow_to_st_petersburg/velaro_rus.pdf


----------



## Slartibartfas

Chafford1 said:


> The Russians are purchasing 8 Siemens 'Velaro RUS' Trains which will run between Moscow and St Petersburg at a maximum speed of *250kmh (155mph).*
> 
> Full description of trains below:
> 
> http://w1.siemens.com/pool/en/whats_new/features/moscow_to_st_petersburg/velaro_rus.pdf


_Will_ the train run 250 km/h or _could _it run that fast if it had an appropriate track?

Reading the posts before it seems those speeds will only be reached on a minority length of the track.


----------



## Gamma-Hamster

jkjkjk said:


> Today that 200 km/h max train is making 639 km route Moscow - St Petersburg at 4:30 - average speed app. 144 km/h


And where in Europe do we have a line where trains travel at 250kmh average speed?


----------



## Gamma-Hamster

Let's look at The Cologne-Frankfurt high-speed rail line:



> The Cologne-Frankfurt high-speed rail line (in German: Neubaustrecke Köln-Rhein/Main) is a *177 km *long railway line in Germany, connecting the cities of Cologne and Frankfurt.





> maximum speed : 300 km/h





> The route as finally designed was intended to allow trains to cover the distance between Cologne and Frankfurt in *58 minutes,[4] although the current fastest time is 70 minutes*, due to uncompleted work at rail junctions in Cologne and Frankfurt.[5]


(c)wiki
Let's see 177km / 1-1,15h = 152-177kmh average speed

I see two variants: either Cologne-Frankfurt line is complete shit and is not worthy of being called a high speed line, or average speed being significantly lower than maximum speed is completely normal and some people here are talking out of their asses.


----------



## amirtaheri

Don't you love it when people from Russia starts trashing everybody else and lashing out as soon as questions about their own country are raised and then feel as though a vendetta must be pursued against those who have violated Russian "dignity"....

Give me a break and grow up.


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## amirtaheri

Also, Lorraine-TGV to Champagne-Ardenne-TGV is has an average start to finish speed of 279.3 km/h, just in case you wanted to know.

I just want to point out that no-one here was trashing the Moscow-St Petersberg line, but merely asking whether or not the speed of 250km/h was sustained throughout the entire line rather than a specified maximum speed for certain segments of it.


----------



## Aurelio

Gamma-Hamster said:


> And where in Europe do we have a line where trains travel at 250kmh average speed?


For example, Barcelona-Madrid and Madrid-Sevilla/Málaga...


In about 500Km from Barcelona to Madrid, the Spanish TGV -AVE- reaches 300Km/h continously, for the direct trains. Next year, it might be higher, if they apply the ERTMS level II, even close to 350Km/h...


----------



## Chafford1

amirtaheri said:


> Also, Lorraine-TGV to Champagne-Ardenne-TGV is has an average start to finish speed of 279.3 km/h, just in case you wanted to know.
> 
> I just want to point out that no-one here was trashing the Moscow-St Petersberg line, but merely asking whether or not the speed of 250km/h was sustained throughout the entire line rather than a specified maximum speed for certain segments of it.


250km/h is the maximum speed not the average.


----------



## elfabyanos

For the purposes of my map can someone give me the geographical locations of where these various speeds are attained, then I can put it on the map.


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## Chafford1

The 250km/h maximum won't start between Moscow and St Petersburg until 2010 when the new trains are introduced


----------



## elfabyanos

Thanks but that wasn't the question. Which sections of line are suitable for 250km/h operation if any yet, which other sections will be complete by the time the new trains are introduced, and what are the other future plans?


----------



## Chafford1

jkjkjk said:


> Today that 200 km/h max train is making 639 km route Moscow - St Petersburg at 4:30 - average speed app. 144 km/h


The new Velaro trains will do the same trip in 3:45 - average speed approx 160km/h (100mph) according to the Russian Railways website. 

http://www.eng.rzd.ru/wps/portal/rzdeng/fp

The timings would suggest that the train will run at 200km/h (125mph) on most of the line with a shorter section at 250km/h (155mph).

The website mentions a new high speed line for 2013 or 2014


----------



## Chafford1

elfabyanos said:


> Thanks but that wasn't the question. Which sections of line are suitable for 250km/h operation if any yet, which other sections will be complete by the time the new trains are introduced, and what are the other future plans?


Apologies. You could try Russian Railways:


http://www.eng.rzd.ru/wps/portal/rzdeng?STRUCTURE_ID=13


----------



## Trainman Dave

elfabyanos said:


> Thanks but that wasn't the question. Which sections of line are suitable for 250km/h operation if any yet, which other sections will be complete by the time the new trains are introduced, and what are the other future plans?


Unfortunately the Russian railway infrastructure folks don't post this information in public forums.

I have notes which suggest that 6-7 or seven projects which are each shorter than 20 km each have been completed. This work is anticipating a long term goal to create a 250km/h railway by building many short stretches when funds are available which will eventually be linked into a high speed line.

It will take years to complete a high speed line so the Russian Velaro's will mostly be operating at 200 km/h or less less for many years to come. The other problem which has not been addressed in Russia is the modern signaling required to run high speed trains at the instensity of 4-6 per hour. Currently there is only one train per day in the time tables which operates at 144 km/h.


----------



## Trainman Dave

deleted post


----------



## Trainman Dave

Gamma-Hamster said:


> And where in Europe do we have a line where trains travel at 250kmh average speed?


This Should answer your question. click on "World Speed Survey, 2007" for the full report (second paragraph):

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2007/09/7742/new_lines_boost_rails_high_speed_performance.html

See page #557 for the Moscow - St. Petersburg line in the context of this bi-annual survey.


----------



## Chafford1

Trainman Dave said:


> Unfortunately the Russian railway infrastructure folks don't post this information in public forums.



Perhaps a personal request might bear fruit, unless the Russians think that divulging line speeds has security implications: 


_Press Centre

Requests for information and interviews: 


Dear Colleagues,


If you require any information, comments or interviews with the Company's senior management or want to make pictures and TV shootings at Russian railway stations, please write to Sergei Vladimirovich Mikhailov, Head of Corporate Communications at Russian Railways, using your publication's headed stationery.


The letter should contain a brief description on the subject of the article or interview, a full list of questions if possible, the desired deadline for responses, the correspondent s contact details and, ideally, some brief information about the publication.


Letters can be sent by:


Fax: +7 (495) 262-38-72

Tel: +7 (495) 262 37 05


or post to:


107174, 
Moscow,
Novaya Basmannaya Ulitsa, 
Dom 2,
Press Service,
Russian Railways_


----------



## Trainman Dave

Chafford1 said:


> Apologies. You could try Russian Railways:
> 
> 
> http://www.eng.rzd.ru/wps/portal/rzdeng?STRUCTURE_ID=13


I visit this site about once a week and my information usually comes from their press releases which are rarely very specific. Typical announcement is:


> 10 million roubles invested north of Tver


----------



## Gamma-Hamster

Trainman Dave said:


> It will take years to complete a high speed line so the Russian Velaro's will mostly be operating at 200 km/h or less less for many years to come. .


It will be completed in december 2008. It will take 3,5 hours from Moscow to St. Petersburg, which qualifies as a highspeed line.


----------



## Chafford1

Gamma-Hamster said:


> It will be completed in december 2008. It will take 3,5 hours from Moscow to St. Petersburg, which qualifies as a highspeed line.


3 hours 45 minutes according to the Russian Railways website at an *average *speed of 100mph (160km/h) which definitely qualifies as high speed.


----------



## Gamma-Hamster

Chafford1 said:


> 3 hours 45 minutes according to the Russian Railways website at an *average *speed of 100mph (160km/h) which definitely qualifies as high speed.


Well, i have heard 3h 30m, but even with 3:45 it should be 170kmh, not 160


----------



## Trainman Dave

Gamma-Hamster said:


> It will be completed in december 2008. It will take 3,5 hours from Moscow to St. Petersburg, which qualifies as a highspeed line.


Please cite a source for this information? Unfortunately I do not speak Russian so I have to rely on translations.

When I refer to a high speed railway, I expect multiple trains in the period of an hour to operate for long stretches at speeds of at least 250 km/h.

I don't believe that Moscow to St. Petersburg route will qualify by 2008 so I would like a referecne which will convince me that more than one train per day will be operating at these speeds.


----------



## Gamma-Hamster

Trainman Dave said:


> Please cite a source for this information?


I already did, it was my first post here?



> When I refer to a high speed railway, I expect multiple trains in the period of an hour


Number of trains per hour has nothing to do with speed of the line. We don't need so much trains between Moscow and St.Petersburg.



> to operate for long stretches at speeds of at least 250 km/h.


It will travel at 250km/h at some parts of the line, otherwise it won't achieve 170 km/h average speed.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^I would've expected that the traffic flow is more than enough between 2 multi-million cities to enable over one train per hour.


----------



## Trainman Dave

Gamma-Hamster said:


> I already did, it was my first post here?


Here is an English translation:


> The German concern Siemens at the beginning of December 2008 to supply Russian Railways first fast train Velaro Rus, described by the press service of the October Railway (railroad, a subsidiary of CFR), with reference to the words of the Acting Deputy Chief Engineer OZHD Vladimir Andreev.
> 
> "In early December 2008 the first train to arrive Velaro Rus, after which work will begin to bring it to an acceptable level after the transport and mileage warranty to 5 thousand km. Released This allows the train to certification testing" - said the report.
> 
> According to Andreeva, by December this year CFR complete the construction of infrastructure on the line St. Petersburg - Moscow in the organization of high-speed traffic. CFR organization implements the project of high-speed communication between Moscow and St. Petersburg. The company entered into a contract with the German Siemens for the supply of high-speed trains 8 Velaro Rus.
> CFR is also considering the possibility of organizing a high-speed traffic between Moscow and Nizhni Novgorod.


This is exactly what I have been trying to say about the available sources in Russia.

I am looking for detailed plans such as I can read in from RFF in France, BVW in Germany or Network Rails business plan.



> Number of trains per hour has nothing to do with speed of the line. We don't need so much trains between Moscow and St.Petersburg.


This is where we fundmentally dis-agree!

Running one premium train per day is just like running the "Royal Scotsman" in the 1930's and the "20th Century Limited" in the 1950's. Real high speed lines are built for modern operations running multiple trains per hour to justify the large investment in high speed railways. I can find no evidence that the Russian Authorities have made any thing which is remotely close to that level of investment yet and I have been tracking the investment in the Moscow/St.Petersburg route for 20 years since the late 1980's.

I am sorry that I cannot support the assertion that Russia has joined the real high speed rail countries. Determine for your self who they are by reading the World Speed Survey, 2007 which I referenced in post #219.

Here it is again: [click on "World Speed Survey, 2007" for the full report (second paragraph)]:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2007/09/7742/new_lines_boost_rails_high_speed_performance.html

See page #557 for the Moscow - St. Petersburg line in the context of this bi-annual survey.


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## Aurelio

Deleted post


----------



## sotavento

elfabyanos said:


> Here's the next update. It's a GIF now, hopefully that'll give better distinction of lines that are similar brightness to the background. ...












Added the current status of portuguese network.

hno:

Current status:

HSL Vigo(Spain)-(Border)-Braga-Porto 

(Border)-Braga is still in the _"only god knows"_ domain ... it will be 60km of mixed traffic 250km/h NEW LINE

Braga-Porto is almost 99% up to standards ... it allows for 140/220km/h running today ... it will be almost ALL 200km/h when the HS Trains start running the entire stretch ... it will be used for the AV in the beginning 
- Near trofa a new variant is being built ... this was a major setback some years ago as the NEW MUNICIPALITY (having only recently been promoted to municipio) strongly oposed the electrification ... so after more than 1 year of discussions REFER (portuguese infraestructure company) just went ahead and electrified the SINGLE TRACK section ... now they are building a double track variant "outside" the city. 
- The section of 4/5 tracks just north of Porto is being extended further north ... 
- plans for a Porto-(Airport)-Braga NEW LINE are still under discussion

Lisboa-Porto "northern" Main Line

Porto-Gaia has seen a new bridge and tunel built in the nineties (São João bridge)
Gaia-Espinho is 20km and still under studies as it is a densely "suburban" area.
- at Espinho a section of tunel is being built under the city (1500m) only at 150m of the seashore. 
Espinho-Aveiro-Mealhada are 75km of 220 km/h upgraded line
- Major new station built at Aveiro
Mealhada-Coimbra-Alfarelos is a 35km of "suburban" line at 120/140 km/h
Alfarelos-Pombal-Entroncamento are more than 80km of "upgraded" 220km/h (pendular only) main line. <<< its a very curvey stretch ... BRITISH FOLKS ... If we could do It WCML could also be at 220km/h in the near future. :cheers:
Entroncamento-Santarem-Azambja is a stretch of 60km "unrenovated" track ... it should be at 220km/h nowadays but the MOVE to a new AV line has put the renovation plans on hold ... it is planed to "only" upgrade it to 160km/h (althow pendular trains could be alowed higher ???)
Azambuja-V.F.Xira-Lisboa(OrientStation) is a section of 4 track "upgraded" to 200/220 km/h (actualy 2 of them are new lines and 2 were upgraded) 
- it includes some major new stations (including Calatrava's "Oriente" Statio) and other "interesting" works 
^^ If it weren't for the comprimises with spain about a NEW High Speed network the rest of the line would also be upgraded to 220km/h from tip to toe ... so now the remaining stretches were wither "downgraded" or will instead be a part of the new Lisboa-Porto HSL

In the middle of NOWHERE theres a 25km stretch of recently renovated track prepared to High Speed 250 km/h running and with bi-bitola sleepers ... its Between Evora and Casa Branca and will be a part of the freight Sines-Badajoz-Madrid main line to be built in the near future (it is actualy a part of the Lisboa-Madrid HSL corridor)

Lisboa-Algarve "Southern" Main Line is partly renovated also (actualy it mostly NEW lines along the path of the old ones)

Lisboa-Coina is an "suburban" new line built in late nineties 
- includes a NEW 20km long cross tagus crossing in old 25/4 bridge ... it carries some 100.000 passengers daily nowadays
- due to the curvy trackage it is mostly viaducts limited to 160km/h tops and has some 45km/h curves ... while the "Tagus" bridge itself is limited to 60km/h
Coina-PinhalNovo is a NEW 15km line built to 200/220 km/h speeds with a very CURIOUS ... WRONG WAY alignement ... a soutwest-northeast 200km/h line in a corridor nortwest-southeast ??? :bash:
PinhalNovo-Setubal are 12km more of "upgraded" trackage at 200km/h ... most "InterCity" trains to algarve do this rundabound (Setubal is 120.000 hab.)
Setubal-AguasDeMoura is a 15km single line 100/140 km/h line (used by intercity trains in their way south)
PinhalNovo-Poceirão-AguasDeMoura is an "upgraded" 220 km/h two track line - only pendular and freight trains run this way towards algarve nowadays ...
- "intercity" trains to alentejo run the PinhalNovo-Poceirão stretch ... but these are still run by diesel loco haulage
AguasDeMoura-Pinheiro-Alcaçer-Grandola-Ermidas is an 85km single line "upgraded" stretch partly at 220 km/h
- the first 15km are a single line at 140/200km/h in corridor prepared to upgrade to two track 
- the next 20km are old and slow "electrified only" track ... a 20km variant is currently being built .. .it will allow for 250km/h double track trains in the near future
- the remain 50km are all SINGLE TRACK 220 km/h NEW line built along the old corridor. 
Ermidas-TorreVã-Funcheira is partly (20km) double track at 220km/h and partly single track windy at 80 km/h 

^^ From this point south theres only "plans" to future upgrades ... and the current line is at 110/140 km/h (and this is with pendulation) ... as they were getting tight scheduled to Euro2004 they didn't made provisions to upgrade the line to a higher profile back then ... just get rid of the extreme slow speed points (some as low as 10km/h back then) and electrify ... someday it will completely redone all over again. 

Possible further HSL upgrades include:
- a direct line into the "west" main line 
- an upgrade of the 180km "beira alta" line ... Pampilhosa/Coimbra-Guarda-Salamanca-Madrid/Irun ... to allow pendulation (its a 160km/h line but it was renovated prior to the introduction of pendular trains so pendulation was not taken into acount back then) <<< its a shame since it is the Lisboa-Paris direct line 
- an upgrade of the 120km "alentejo" line ... to alow for 200 plus trains to reach the NEW airport buit there ... it doesn't even require pendulation since it is perfectly flat land and was built in 1860 with DUPLICATION space ... currently is at 140 km/h.
- an upgrade of the 150km ""leste" main line ... connection between north and the Lisboa-Madrid HSL ??

In 10 years time the network will consist of:

Lisboa-Badajoz-Madrid = 220(?)km +300 km/h NEW HSL
Lisboa-Algarve = 310km of 220 km/h "mixed" HSL (130km are projected to 250km/h but run at only 220km/h due to excessive usage of heavy freight trains) ... cunversion to FULL HSL of the entire lisboa-sevilla corridor is still being evaluated
Lisboa-Alentejo = HSL spurs to Beja and Evora (using the old lines)
Lisboa-coimbra-Aveiro-Porto = 330km of 220 km/h "upgraded" line + 290km of NEW HSL (the middle sections are not along the same region)
Coimbra/Aveiro-Guarda-Salamanca = 180km of either "upgraded" or "NEW HSL" 
Porto-Braga-Vigo = 110km of "upgraded" and "NEW HSL" at 200/250 km/h

220 + 130 (or 310) + 330 + 290 + 180 + 110 = 1260(1440)km 


There will be more than 1200 km HSL in portugal in the near future. :cheers:


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## Trainman Dave

sotavento said:


> Added the current status of portuguese network.
> 
> hno:


Now I am really curious! What is the source of your information as I cannot find any references which identify speeds of 200+ km/h south of Lisboa.

You are showing a lot of planned lines at 300+ km/h but have any of these proposals actually been funded and has construction actually started.

I ask because for the last 10 years a new plan for HSL's in Portugal has been published every 2-3 years. The last HSL plan for Portugal which I read specified new lines running at 250+ km/h not 300+ km/h


Added at 6:38 pm
Yes I have read all the reports which you have just listed in very usefull detail.
None of this has been been funded yet.

With out funding commitments these reports represent aspirations, they do not actually represent commitments. This is the same problem That I have with Gamma-Hampster's asertions about Russia.

I don't believe that any thing will happen untill construction actuall begins!!!!!


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## elfabyanos

Thanks very much for all the detail sotavento, and thanks for the info gamma-hampster.

As trainman dave says we really do need sources for this info otherwise we are not achieving much by this map I'm doing. To quote Swede who posted my map on Skyscraperpage "...usual caveat about SSC reliabity". There's no point in doing the map if people are going to argue over whether or not it's right. Everything on my map so far has evidence to back it up (I hope!!!) and I've got to be anal about it. HSL Zuid isn't completed on my map until revenue earning services begin.


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## sotavento

Trainman Dave said:


> Now I am really curious! What is the source of your information as I cannot find any references which identify speeds of 200+ km/h south of Lisboa.
> 
> You are showing a lot of planned lines at 300+ km/h but have any of these proposals actually been funded and has construction actually started.
> 
> I ask because for the last 10 years a new plan for HSL's in Portugal has been published every 2-3 years. The last HSL plan for Portugal which I read specified new lines running at 250+ km/h not 300+ km/h
> 
> 
> Added at 6:38 pm
> Yes I have read all the reports which you have just listed in very usefull detail.
> None of this has been been funded yet.
> 
> With out funding commitments these reports represent aspirations, they do not actually represent commitments. This is the same problem That I have with Gamma-Hampster's asertions about Russia.
> 
> I don't believe that any thing will happen untill construction actuall begins!!!!!


^^ You should try learning to "google" a little bit better ... it even has "translation" functionalities nowadays.



Some help for you:

http://www.refer.pt portuguese infraestructure company
http://www.rave.pt portuguese high speed network company (actualy it's part of REFER)
http://www.iambiente.pt local ambient ministery page ... it's where the Environmental Impact Auditions papers are located in PDF
for more information just google for some keywords like "tgv" "alta velocidade" "alfa pendular" etc etc etc

elfabyanos ... it realy is a dificult puzzle to put together over here. 

Some timetabled times:

Porto-Gaia-coimbra-Lisboa-PinhalNovo-Tunes-Faro <<< 2 direct trains each direction per day
Gaia-Lisboa = 330km in 2h30
Coimbra-Lisboa = 210km in 1h30 
Porto-Gaia-Coimbra is the most conjested part of portuguese network and while more than half of it is at 220km/h theres no space available to put a full speed train 
Lisboa-PinhalNovo is an urban runabound of 45km at slow speeds (with half of it at 200km/h) and trains usualy have long extra time given (usualy Alfa Pendular waits more than 5 minutes at each end) and have 4 intermediate stops ... 45km in 50 minutes hno:
PinhalNovo-Tunes = 220km in 1h50 ... of wich only 120 are currently at 220km/h and the rest dont pass 100/110 km/h in much streches ... there are works currently in a variant at alcacer that will remove an aditional 10min. from the scheduled time.
Tunes-Faro is another "urban" strech = 40km in 30 minutes

Pendulation is used FULL course thru most of the +600km of the route even where south line only alows speeds of 110km/h (stretches where conventional trains only run at 80/90 km/h) ... but theres some excessive 50 min to 1h on top of the timetable due to contingencies (south of porto and lisboa area are that congested). :cheers:

After Trofa(porto-braga) VFXira(lisboa-porto) and Alcaçer (Lisboa-Algarve) are removed from the Black List there will probably be another 30 minutes removed from current timetibles ... and work should start in re-upgrading southen parts again untill the grey areas (in the map) are fully 200/220km/h


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## Gamma-Hamster

elfabyanos said:


> As trainman dave says we really do need sources for this info otherwise we are not achieving much by this map I'm doing..


Russia Railroads already payed Siemens 600mln euro for 8 trains, and Siemens started building trains back in July 2007


http://transportation.siemens.com/ts/en/pub/newsline/newsline/press_2007/2007/20_07_2007.htm


> *Start of production for Russian high speed train *
> 
> Bodyshell production starts at the Siemens plant in Krefeld-Uerdingen
> 
> *Krefeld, Jul 20, 2007 *
> Starting at the end of 2009, these trains should be running at speeds of up to 250 km/h on a line connecting Moscow and St. Petersburg.


And i already posted an article which says that Siemens will deliver first train on time.

http://www.gudok.ru/index.php/news/9988


> По словам В.Андреева, к декабрю текущего года РЖД завершит создание инфраструктуры на линии Санкт-Петербург - Москва в рамках организации скоростного движения.


Here Russian Railroads representative says that upgrade of the existing line will be finished in december 2008, which implies that upgrade is already going for some time now.
Nevsky Express was operating at speed up to 200km/h for years already on this line.


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## Swede

elfabyanos said:


> As trainman dave says we really do need sources for this info otherwise we are not achieving much by this map I'm doing. To quote Swede who posted my map on Skyscraperpage "...usual caveat about SSC reliabity". There's no point in doing the map if people are going to argue over whether or not it's right. Everything on my map so far has evidence to back it up (I hope!!!) and I've got to be anal about it. HSL Zuid isn't completed on my map until revenue earning services begin.


That was my point, yes  And that's why I like your map - it isn't about some forumer saying "we have fast trains!!!!!" it's about good references, it's about stuff that can be proven.


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## Gamma-Hamster

http://www.eng.rzd.ru/wps/portal/rzdeng?STRUCTURE_ID=4054




> Trains will run at speeds of 160 kmph on the existing main line between Moscow and St. Petersburg and cover the distance between the two cities in 3 hours 45 minutes. At the moment, two ER-200 trains made by the Riga Electrical Manufacturing Plant cover the same distance in 4 hours 30 minutes.





> In November 2006, Vladimir Yakunin the president of Russian Railways, and Henri Kuitunen, Chairman of the VR Group, signed an equity contract regarding the Joint-Stock Company Oy Karelian Trains Ltd.The signing ceremony took place in Helsinki in the presence of Russian President Vladimir Putin and Finnish President Tarja Halonen.
> 
> In June 2007, the results were announced of an international tender to purchase motorised train units for high-speed rail services between St. Petersburg and Helsinki. The tender was won by the French corporation ALSTOM.
> 
> *On 30 November 2007, senior executives from Russian Railways and ALSTOM attended the ceremony in Savigliano, Italy to mark the beginning of production of the first Pendolino high-speed electric passenger train intended for service between St. Petersburg and Helsinki. *
> 
> To implement high-speed passenger services, Russian Railways will purchase and launch dual-system electric trains capable of a maximum speed of 220 kmph and with powered coach tilting. These trains will be in line with modern European requirements of comfort and security.


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## elfabyanos

Gamma-Hamster said:


> Russia Railroads already payed Siemens 600mln euro for 8 trains, and Siemens started building trains back in July 2007
> http://transportation.siemens.com/ts/en/pub/newsline/newsline/press_2007/2007/20_07_2007.htm


It is very well known that Siemens are really making the trains, but maps don't show trains, they show routes. I'm am certain that Russia is building high speed lines, I want to know where and when and what type and how. (please!!)



Swede said:


> That was my point, yes  And that's why I like your map - it isn't about some forumer saying "we have fast trains!!!!!" it's about good references, it's about stuff that can be proven.


Many thanks. This thread has become quite a good source in of itself. Besides, to quote post #1 of this very thread;



ChrisH said:


> I've seen a few attempts in newspapers or online at mapping the expanding network of HSR in Europe, but they are always shot down as being inaccurate. What I want to know is, can we do any better? I'm sure that we can come up with a comprehensive list of lines, then someone would have to map them accurately.
> 
> Ideally I'd like to see lines in three divisions:
> - 300km/h+
> - 200km/h+
> - less than 200km/h
> 
> (if only to make the UK look a bit better )
> 
> So how about it?


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## Stormwatch153

Gamma-Hamster said:


> And where in Europe do we have a line where trains travel at 250kmh average speed?


Have you ever Been to France? No?!? Or maybe Germany!?!? You know, there is a really worrying fact that Russia ISN'T the only country in the Europe. Here is one for you, look to the other side, let's say Indian railways. In comparsion with Russia, Indian state railways are the U.S.S. Enterprise challenged by a donkey driven rikshah.


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## Gamma-Hamster

Stormwatch153 said:


> Have you ever Been to France? No?!? Or maybe Germany!?!? .


http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2007/09/7742/new_lines_boost_rails_high_speed_performance.html



> The fastest trains in each country - from Railway Gazette's World Speed Survey 2007


Germany - 233.5km/h

But, yes, France have trains with more than 250kmh average speed, now take the cookie ang go home.


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## Gamma-Hamster

elfabyanos said:


> It is very well known that Siemens are really making the trains, but maps don't show trains, they show routes. I'm am certain that Russia is building high speed lines, I want to know where and when and what type and how. (please!!)



Where: Betwen Moscow and St. Petersburg, an upgrade of October Railway
When: right now, supposed to be finished in december 2008.
What type: upgraded classic line with average speed of 170km/h and 250km/h maximum speed. As already said, if you want a detailed map of the line, unfortunately, RZD most likely won't share it with us, but i will check russian railroad forums. I
only know that stretch from point 162 to point 181 is tha stretch where in august Nevsky Express crashed (terrorist attack, no fatalities) while running at 191km/h


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## elfabyanos

It's hard but the information has got to be somewhere. I can't just draw a 350 mile long dotted line. I appreciate your help though, if you do find anything that'll be great. Likewise if you can find anything about neighbouring countries too.


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## sotavento

Stormwatch153 said:


> Have you ever Been to France? No?!? Or maybe Germany!?!? You know, there is a really worrying fact that Russia ISN'T the only country in the Europe. Here is one for you, look to the other side, let's say Indian railways. In comparsion with Russia, Indian state railways are the U.S.S. Enterprise challenged by a donkey driven rikshah.


Have you ever been to the UK Portugal Italy Spain or even some Eastern European (Russia Included) rail networks ??? 

India is one of the "paradises" of rail fans everywhere ... but don't compare its main lines to Moscow-S.Petersbourg ... :bash: 

(doublepost)


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## sotavento

^^ doublepost (reboot and autostart suck)

Over here we "downgrade" our own network speed because we have to acomodate fast passenger trains at 220 km/h in the same SINGLE LINE as 2000 ton coal trains ... but the NEW lines are buit to a standard of 250 km/h ... and this is to follow EU/UIC directives wich make it MANDATORY. :cheers:

For the past 13 years EVERY main line renewed has been renewed with the use of pendulating trains in mind and every stretch of new line has been made with HSL standards in mind. 

Needless to say that CP4000 pendular trains are "capable" of reaching 250 km/h if its decided to do so in the future. 

But it has already been proved/decided that mixing freight with high speed passengers is a bad move in high intensity corridors. 

Northern Line = some 40 High speed/Intercity trains each way per day (Intercity has 200km/h rolling stock) plus lots of regional , suburban and freight traffic ... its on the verge of colapsing so instead of full quadruplication its going to be a dedicated HSL and only somoe stretches of the old line will be quadrupled < thus making the "corridor" lisbon-porto an average of 4 to 8 lines all (theres another line near the coast and up out of lisbon and a narrow gauge south out of espinho)

South line still has room for expansion (until the direct line to spain opens that is) and the single line can cope with the relatively low traffic (2 HST + 4 InterCity + 2 regional + dozens of freight trains each way per day)


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## Gamma-Hamster

http://zdrus.narod.ru/news/0017.html



elfabyanos said:


> It's hard but the information has got to be somewhere. I can't just draw a 350 mile long dotted line. I appreciate your help though, if you do find anything that'll be great. Likewise if you can find anything about neighbouring countries too.


I've found the exact location of a segment where 250kmh speed will be achieved. The small green segment on the map is where train will be tested upon arrival. 
The artical i found says that if RZD will be satisfied with the results than more segments will be upgraded(large green segment on the map will already be partially prepared for 250km/h) to 250km/h. Otherwise, line will be upraded to only 230km/h

Blue segments will be upgraded to 200km/h till 2009.

Now, the problem is - the map only shows upgraded segments, not existing ones.
And another article i found (dated year 2000)states , that in order to achieve 4:30 time (and we know it was eventually achieved) a total of 500km of rail should allow movement with 200km/h speed.

I can only assume that 250km/h green segment on the map is 200km/h as of now.


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## Trainman Dave

Thank you Gamma-Hamster. :banana:

That was realy usefull information


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## sotavento

You just get me interested in this discussion. :cheers:

Been doing some quick calculations here.

Northern Line ... a 335(?)km line between Santa Apolonia station in Lisboa and Campanhã station in Porto

Top to top (335km) best average speed (timetabled) is 116km/h with 4 intermediate stops run by Direct Alfa Pendular Services(7 per day each day).

Remove the two top stations and que get Oriente Station in lisboa (5km north) and Gaia station (Gaia is just 3km south of Campanha in the other side of the Douro river) ... best average speed is 130km/h with 2 intermediate stops run by direct Alfa Pendular services(9 per day each way*).

*) 2 per way are direct to algarve and dont go to Santa Apolonia.

Interestingly enough the BEST timetable time I could find in northern line was an INTERCITY stile service run by pendular stock ... Entroncamento-Pombal wich averages 145,5 km/h between comercial stops ... that train makes 8 /eight) intermediate stops and still manages to achieve some good timings. :cheers:

folowed by Coimbra-Aveiro timed at 137,5 km/h ... the complete 265km trip from Lisboa(Oriente)-Aveiro averages at 132,5km/h calling only at Coimbra station.

^^ Direct Alfa Pendular call only at Oriente , Coimbra , Aveiro and gaia between Santa Apolonia(or the 2 comming from algarve) and Campanhã (where some others continue north to Braga) ... average between stations can surely be timed higher than that ... but since there's no comercial stop we can never guess.

^^ Not quite "NOT high speed" trains aren't they ??? 

Alfa Pendular trains are known for "sitting" there at stations (sometimes over 5 minutes) just waiting for their departing times to come (they definitely could take some journey time from current timetables).
Another problem is than not a single station to station zone includes purely renovated stretches ... its all "dotted" over here (as elfabyanos said) ... some black holes will disapear soon and we can see + fast timings in the near future. :cheers:


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## Trainman Dave

deleted


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## Trainman Dave

A personal opinion based on 20 years of studying high speed trains

Measuring *start to stop times *in railway time tables the following categories of railways exist:

250+ km/h:.............. the real HST leaders
200-250 km/h:......... qualifiers as HST operators
160-199 km/h:......... also rans as HST operators
less than 160 km/h:.. the wannabes


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## Gamma-Hamster

elfabyanos said:


> Likewise if you can find anything about neighbouring countries too.


http://www.ugmk.info/?art=1204102283
Ukrainian project for highspeed network with maximum speed of 160km/h using Siemens DS3 locomotives for Euro-2012 is in danger of being canceled, at least according to the article.


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## sotavento

^^ Notice that here we have NO non stop trains and NO direct international trains.

I just wonder if and when direct HSL Lisboa-Madrid trains start to run at their designated speed of 300 km/h it they will even aknowledge that the high sped trains DO INDEED come to portugal and not simply terminate somewhere along the border line. :bash:

^^ This is just to say that railwaygazette has fallen a little bit more in my esteem. :cheers:


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## Trainman Dave

sotavento said:


> ^^ Notice that here we have NO non stop trains and NO direct international trains.
> 
> I just wonder if and when direct HSL Lisboa-Madrid trains start to run at their designated speed of 300 km/h it they will even aknowledge that the high sped trains DO INDEED come to portugal and not simply terminate somewhere along the border line. :bash:
> 
> ^^ This is just to say that railwaygazette has fallen a little bit more in my esteem. :cheers:


When Portugal actually builds a dedicated high speed line as is currently proposed, but not yet funded, for the Lisboa - Porto route then they should reach 200+ km/h statrt to stop. However the distance is probably to short for Portugal to achieve 250+ km/h which requires some very special situations


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## Gamma-Hamster

http://zdrus.narod.ru/news/0017.html
Some more details:


> Константин Аверкиев, начальник скоростного отдела службы технической политики ОЖД:
> – Уже проведённая реконструкция линии Санкт-Петербург – Москва позволяет электропоездам пройти это расстояние за 3 часа 55 минут


Here October Railway representative says that it is posible to reach St. Petersburg from Moscow in 3:55 now and further upgrades will further reduce it to 3:45. The difference of only 10 minute shows that current upgrade to 250km/h serves a purpose of testing trains and railroads for future developments(possible new 300km/h line in 2015 and further upgrades of current line) than actually speeding up the current line. Well, i expected more, but the fact that trains will reach 250km/h on Moscow - St.Petersburg line still stands.



> общая стоимость которых оценивается примерно в 16 млрд. руб.,


Cost of the upgrade - 16 bln rubles = $665mln.
So, counting the trains, the cost of the whole affair is $1,6bln


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## sotavento

Trainman Dave said:


> A personal opinion based on 20 years of studying high speed trains
> 
> Measuring *start to stop times *in railway time tables the following categories of railways exist:
> 
> 250+ km/h:.............. the real HST leaders
> 200-250 km/h:......... qualifiers as HST operators
> 160-199 km/h:......... also rans as HST operators
> less than 160 km/h:.. the wannabes


^^ I assume that REMARK was directed at me and the russian guy wasn't it ??? 

You indeed are a funny guy.

How come you ASSUME that a company that in the last 10 years has operated 40 or more trains per day at 220km/h is a "wanabee" in the High Speed business ??? 

If so desired trains could be run at full speed from point A to point B so as to make average times of 220 km/h ... but instead they choose to run them from cities to cities in comercial services ... and here comes the factor of line "conditions" and "traffic".

I give you an example of the wanabeeness of portuguese railways.

Intercity trains run Funcheira-Tunes (only 80km) in 1 (one) hour.
Removing 1 hour from Alfa Pendular times puts PinhalNovo-funcheira (135km) average times at more than 150 km/h ... considering that 35km (10+25km)of those 135km are LIMITED to 100km/h or LESS ... you get MORE than 100km at MORE than 190km/h ... damned be the slow areas and damned be the STOPS sitting in the middle of 220 km/h zones. :cheers:

those same 25 km are being the main attention of REFER as they are making a new direct route that will remove 10 minutes out of current scheduled time.

But don't get me wrong here ... we don't want to achieve the greatest speeds in the world ... we prefere to have MORE services and FASTER services than what we had previously.

Lisboa to Algarve services have gained almost 2 hours and Lisboa to proto have also gained almost 2 hours ... and that means that we are getting HALF the journey times ... while at the same time the modernization has lead to doubling of the capacity of those lines. 

Nobody is in a "wanabee race" in this matter ... but great problems have great solutions. 

the 45km SLOW runabound trip between Oriente and Pinhal Novo (in Lisboa metropolitan area) over the 25/4 bridge will be replaced by a 4 track direct route of only 25km "designed" (or more precisely "expected") to be 200/250 km/h ... it will take 30 minutes or more) away ... and will make more room available in 25/4 bridge to urban trains (8 car double deck coaches 12 per way each hour always full ... as the bridge is heavily limited in capacity/tonnage trains cant cross each other over it)

just north of lisbon there are 10km that are an incridible bottleneck (limit of 80/100 km/h 2 tracks acomodate heavy urban , intercity and freight trains) ... a new inland railway line (built to be +300 km/h HSL most in tunnel) will only aliviate the congestion there ... but will allow the urban trains to make full use of current railway 

the programmed upgrade of the line north of lisbon continues (remember that only half (about 2/3 actualy) of the line is upgraded with the urban areas heavily congested ... and some minor upgrades in areas currently under work can take by themselves 10m each out of the timetables ... 

"someday" in the near future (actualy by 2010/2013) a great revolution will came to portuguese international railway ... the direct line to Madrid will open and then we can speak of an "iberian" High Speed Network ... 3 or 4 more will follow in its tail.

On the "speed average" area I could argue with you but I will only say this ...


It takes 10km to get "at speed" ... we average between 20km and 50km between stops in our InterCity network ... thus we didn't even UPGRADE most of our intercity stock to 200 km/h ... neither our secondary lines got upgraded to 200 km/h as they have THAT many stations.

Direct trains ??? we have NO SPACE to run them ... so instead of TODAY removing 2 or 3 slow trains on the currently almost colapsed "northern" line ... we are projecting/building a new "northern" HSL ... and continuing the upgrades on the old one.

and just notice that PRIOR to the begining of the modernization plan portugal was the european country with MORE level crossings at 2 per quilometer ... nowadays and only half way thru the program we are at 0,2 level crossings per quilometer .. .and that is much more important (at least to us) than dick measuring km/h in A to B. :cheers: 

Off the record: you get currently some 400km of STARING at 200<->220 km/h in nowadays CP trains ... too bad those km's pass real FAST!!!! :lol:

Just go to Spain if you want to travel to long periods of time at seemingly high speeds ... we have less space to stretch our wings ... if you get to go up to 200 km/h you better not want to get out in the next stop ...


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## sotavento

Trainman Dave said:


> When Portugal actually builds a dedicated high speed line as is currently proposed, but not yet funded, for the Lisboa - Porto route then they should reach 200+ km/h statrt to stop. However the distance is probably to short for Portugal to achieve 250+ km/h which requires some very special situations


^^ That depends in the actual layout of the line being built ... it will be a 300 km/h line of roughly 280 km and they expect some confortably 1h10 travel time ... it shoud be some nice and round 250 km/h for direct trains .. .and the intermediate stops could see some higher averages.

The 200km Lisboa-Madrid is a bit of a drawback ... but it can be put at higher speeds in the future so anything gives. 

And you are WAY WRONG !!!!

It is not "proposed" ... it is unded final planing stages ... and you are completely oblivious to either portuguese network and its constant revamping and to UIC international rulings on what is or not high speed". :bash:

The project of Portuguese High Speed Network ws presented officialy way back in 2005 ... there has been no "discussion" on it ever since. :lol:

There are currently 10/12 High speed Line "zones" under final planing stages in portugal ... 2 are past public consultancy and environmental studies ... the rest are at either stage (PC or EIA) ... the more advanced are REALY the Roling Stock purchase and operation on the international HSL:



In december 2007 The european comission PROPOSED the financing of part of the works by Trans-European funds .. .some 383 million Euros. :cheers:
Source: http://www.rave.pt/noticia20081.asp

In the Porto-Vigo International line: (international "help me write a good contract" bidding) :lol:
Source: http://www.rave.pt/concursos/avep_porto_vigo/PDF/AVEP - Porto Vigo Parte 1_con_1_ES.pdf 
- there are not currently any "zones" under DIA consultancy yet ... still studies studies studies.

In the Lisboa-Madrid we get 5 zones:

1) Lisboa-South railway bridge ... under "re-discussion" since it was decided to place the NEW Lisboa airport in the south margin of the tagus it is being reevaluated the river crossing and the road/rail network in the south bank.
2) Moita-Montemor (74km) ... DIA currently under public consultancy. 
3) Montemor-Evora (34km) ... favorable DIA ... Good to go (Includes 1 station at Evora).
4) Evora-Elvas (58km) ... DIA public consultancy has ended ... awaiting go orders.
5) Elvas-(Broder) ... DIA currently under public consultancy (includes conventional lines and acess to international station).
6) Internationa Station ... to be located near Badajoz just the other side of the border ... 

^^ 1 to 5 see RAVE page .... for 6 see spanish info. :cheers:


In the Lisboa-Porto line we get:

1) Alenquer-Pombal (120km) ... Favorable DIA ... Good to go (includes 1 station at Leiria) 
2) the rest are still under heavy studies ... since they are majorly URBAN corridors they will take more time to get things rolling and include.
- a new station in lisboa
- lisboa-alenquer NEW HSL
- Pombal-Mealhada NEW HSL (70km ... includes station at coimbra)
- Mealhada-Gaia NEW HSL (60km ... includes station at Aveiro) 
- a new cross douro line Gaia-Porto-(Sá Carneiro Airport) 


About your conception on what are "high speed lines":

UIC/EU consider to be "high speed lines" the folowing:

NEW Lines built to 250km/h or more with "certain" standards

UPGRADED Lines renewed to 200km/h or more with "certain" standards

URBAN Lines with LIMITED SPEED and certain standards ... alowed due to dificulties in inserting HSL in urban areas ...

^^ We currently have some 100km of the 1st , more than 200km of the 2nd and almost everything else in the "northern" line falls in the 3rd category. :lol:

From Braga-Porto-Lisboa-Algarve the only ares that are not currently under works and is not "HSL" are Santarem-Entroncamento (will be under eng. works soon) and from funcheira down south.

And in the next 2 to 10 years you will see some 600km of NEW dedicated HSL here. :cheers:


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## Trainman Dave

Just build it and this discussion becomes moot!!!!!!!!!!


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## sotavento

Don't you worry about it ... they are buiding them right as we speak.

And that reminds me ... I've got to create (or revive) a thread about portuguese High Speed Network over here. 

Care to move this discussion over there ??? :cheers:


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## Joop20

I've found some new information regarding the High Speed Rail in Turkey. Here's a map from the Turkish railway website:










Apperantly, they're building a high speed line from Istanbul to Ankara, and from Ankara to Konya. Both lines connect at Polatli. Traveling time between Istanbul and Ankara will be 3 hours and 10 minutes when the line is completed, the travel time between Ankara and Konya will be 70 minutes. For further info, see: 

http://www.tcdd.gov.tr/tcdding/ankist_ing.htm

I suggest to include these lines on the map. 

I've got another remark regarding the map: in the Netherlands, there is a dotted yellow line north-east of Amsterdam. This is probably the new railway line between Lelystad and Zwolle. Although this line will be constructed for speeds up to 200km/h, on parts of this line that speed can't be achieved. Moreover, the Dutch 1.500V overhead wires are not suitable for speeds up to 200km/h as of yet. I therefore suggest to delete this line from the map.


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## Trainman Dave

I have lost track of the latest status of your map, Elf.
Could you repost it as post "260"


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## Dinivan

Joop20 said:


> I've found some new information regarding the High Speed Rail in Turkey. Here's a map from the Turkish railway website:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apperantly, they're building a high speed line from Istanbul to Ankara, and from Ankara to Konya. Both lines connect at Polatli. Traveling time between Istanbul and Ankara will be 3 hours and 10 minutes when the line is completed, the travel time between Ankara and Konya will be 70 minutes. For further info, see:
> 
> http://www.tcdd.gov.tr/tcdding/ankist_ing.htm
> 
> I suggest to include these lines on the map.
> 
> I've got another remark regarding the map: in the Netherlands, there is a dotted yellow line north-east of Amsterdam. This is probably the new railway line between Lelystad and Zwolle. Although this line will be constructed for speeds up to 200km/h, on parts of this line that speed can't be achieved. Moreover, the Dutch 1.500V overhead wires are not suitable for speeds up to 200km/h as of yet. I therefore suggest to delete this line from the map.


I would hardly qualify this area of Turkey as "European"...


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## amirtaheri

I would class the Republic of Turkey as a part of Europe thus qualifies for this!


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## Joop20

Dinivan said:


> I would hardly qualify this area of Turkey as "European"...


I thought this discussion might come up. In any case, the line will also be connected to the European part of Istanbul through the new Marmary tunnel under the Bosporus. There's also a section planned from Istanbul towards the Greek/Bulgarian border. I don't really care whether the Turkish high speed rail lines are included on the map or not, but I think they should be.

There's a thread on the Turkish SSC about this line:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=326142&page=17


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## elfabyanos

Trainman Dave said:


> I have lost track of the latest status of your map, Elf.
> Could you repost it as post "260"


Thought I'd render the very latest updates before reposting. So here is version 15. I've gone with Joop20 and removed the Zwolle-Leystad line - it was pointed out before and on reflection it doesn't adhere to the requirements of the map.  I've added in the Redhill-Reading grey line, but this is served by all of 1 train a day and needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, although Brighton and Gatwick will be gone altogether by this december. Also, I put in the lst bit of the Madrid - Barcelona that I kept forgetting. And probably other stuff too but I keep forgetting.

Portugal - (aaaggh - help)
Sweden - (AAAGGGHHH - HEEELPP!)

Turkey should go on there if it ever becomes part of the EU, and I will put Russia on there. BUT, basically, I've decided to concentrate on this area and move outwards - next I'll get scandinavia in line and then move further eastwards.


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## flierfy

I don't know if you leave out the Leipzig-Nürnberg line by purpose. However, it is under construction and is proposed to be open by 2015/2017.


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## elfabyanos

^^ Thank you for this!!! You may be able to tell but Germany is broadly based on the ICE network map from wikipedia. I take it on your edit of the map above you have conformed to the colour key? More 300+km/h lines great. I need to verify of course, if you have any links that will be helpful but I'm sure I can find some evidence if as you say it's u/c. When did construction start?


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## Trainman Dave

*elfabyanos *
Once again thank you, Elfabyanos, for your patient efforts to create a Euro HSL map. While I have a few concerns about the categories which you have chosen to use those are not important now. I have been combing through your maps for some time and I would like to offer the following comments (sorted by country):

Portugal: I agree with your last posted map version#15 (#262)
I am vehemently opposed to “sotavento’s” map of Portugal. 
~ Maybe it will happen, but the most likely next event will be another re-plan and new priorities.

Spain: I applaud your attempts to sort out the rapidly moving developments in Spain and I will comment later

France: references:
http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/fr_docref_anx_6_4.pdf

http://www.rff.fr/pages/projets/projets.asp?lg=en&fromprj=1

http://lgv2030.free.fr/accueil.htm(a little out of date)
I would recommend the following additions:
~ for about 80 to 100 km north of Macon the LGV-se is limited to 270 km/h during the crossing of the "Morvan"
http://lgv2030.free.fr/ligne1.htm#SudEst


> Par la suite, avec la rénovation des rames de première génération et l'arrivée des Duplex, la vitesse fut porté à 300 km/h à l'exception de la traversée du Morvan.


~ quite a lot of of the LGV-se from Satolas to Valence is limited to 270 km/h. I wish I had better references but RFF does not differeniate 270/300km/h
~ I believe that the existing Poitiers to Niort line has been upgraded to 220+ km/h but I can't find a reference
~ the existing Etampes – Orleans – Vierzon main line is rated 220 km/h and will host TGV’s some time in 2008 
~ show the line Vierzon – Limoge – Montauban as grey for connectivity
~ the existing Orleans – Tours main line is rated 220 km/h and should be blue
~ much of the existing Orange - Avignon - Arles main line is rated 220 km/h and should be blue
~ the reinstated Bourge-en-Bresse to Bellegarde line will only be rated 120-160 km/h but it is a critical connector for the Geneva TGV services so make this section dashed grey
~ the existing Melun to Clermont Ferrand main line is rated 160 km/h but it is more important to the French network than many of the lines shown in the UK. I would add this in a grey route for connectivity

Italy: I agree with your map with one minor nit:-
~ I would classify Bologna to Verona as the upgrade of an existing line (blue)
Also note:
~ Padua to Venice has been upgraded to 220 km/h (blue)
~ Milan to Brescia has been quadrupled but no speed increase is documented and I can find any proposal for it to become 300 km/h

Switzerland: I agree with your map

Austria: I agree with your map with one minor nit:- 
~ the junction at Wels is to far east.
~ the “Koralbahn” between Graz and Klagenfurt may soon deserve inclusion. In anticipation, I would suggest adding the routes to Italy and Slovenia in grey.

Germany: I will comment later

Belgium: I agree with your map with one minor nit:- 
~ the dash line in red should supersede the grey line all the way into Antwerpen.
http://www.b-rail.be/corp/E/projects/project_tgv/lines/north/index.php

Netherlands: The HSL-zuid is not routed through Den Hague
http://www.railcargo.nl/documenten/posterrailcargo.pdf
~ Actually the line is two parts: Antewerpen to Rotterdam and Rotterdam to Schipol with a grey connector through Rotterdam

United Kingdom:
According to Network Rail’s 2007 business plan (I use the data in the "route segment" appendix for each route becuase the speed maps have proved to be unreliable): http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/3085.aspx The line speed on the following sections is:
~ the ECML north of Newcastle is defined as 177 km/h
~ Doncaster to Leeds is 177 km/h
~ Coventry to Birmingham New Street is 177 km/h
~ Wotton Basset to Bath is 160 km/h
~ Bristol to Cogload Junction is 160 km/h
~ New Street to WCML is 145 km/h
~ Piling at the Severn tunnel to Cardiff & Swansea is 145 km/h
~ Didcott to Oxford is 145 km/h
I suggest you change all the above to grey

Denmark: the maximum speed is 180 km/h
~ this speed applies only to the Kobenhavn – Odense – Arhus line
~ I would suggest adding the lines to Rodby and Padborg for connectivity

Sweden: to be added


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## mozatellac

Trainman Dave said:


> *
> ~ quite a lot of of the LGV-se from Satolas to Valence is limited to 270 km/h. I wish I had better references but RFF does not differeniate 270/300km/h
> *


*

Actually, the LGV SE from Saint-Exupery (new name for Satolas) to Valence is limited to 300km/h according to Florent Brisou.

For the other lines, not sure that Orleans-Tours and Orleans-Limoges are 220km/h... isn't it only 200km/h ?*


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## Falcon83

Trainman Dave said:


> Italy: I agree with your map with one minor nit:-
> ~ I would classify Bologna to Verona as the upgrade of an existing line (blue)
> Also note:
> ~ Padua to Venice has been upgraded to 220 km/h (blue)
> ~ Milan to Brescia has been quadrupled but no speed increase is documented and I can find any proposal for it to become 300 km/h


Totally wrong. 
The Bologna-Verona is a brand new high capacity +200 km/h line.
Padua Venice too is brand new, it's the first part of the Turin-Trieste corridor.
Milan-Brescia is still far from being completed.


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## Joop20

Trainman Dave said:


> Belgium: I agree with your map with one minor nit:-
> ~ the dash line in red should supersede the grey line all the way into Antwerpen.
> http://www.b-rail.be/corp/E/projects/project_tgv/lines/north/index.php
> 
> Netherlands: The HSL-zuid is not routed through Den Hague
> http://www.railcargo.nl/documenten/posterrailcargo.pdf
> ~ Actually the line is two parts: Antewerpen to Rotterdam and Rotterdam to Schipol with a grey connector through Rotterdam


I'm sure the place on the HSL map is meant to be Rotterdam, not the Hague. Rotterdam is located abit more to the southeast as is currently displayed on the map however. The exact route is shown here:


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## Coccodrillo

> ~ I would classify Bologna to Verona as the upgrade of an existing line (blue)


A consistent part of this line is a completely new infrastructure.



> ~ Milan to Brescia has been quadrupled but no speed increase is documented and I can find any proposal for it to become 300 km/h


Only Milano-Treviglio, about 30 km. A new line Milan-Venice is proposed, but no details are known. Milan-Treviglio and Padua-Venice (30 km each) are part of this line.

All of these lines are electrified in 3 kV DC and for mixed traffic.


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## Trainman Dave

mozatellac said:


> Actually, the LGV SE from Saint-Exupery (new name for Satolas) to Valence is limited to 300km/h according to Florent Brisou.
> 
> For the other lines, not sure that Orleans-Tours and Orleans-Limoges are 220km/h... isn't it only 200km/h ?


Florent Brisou states that the maximum speed is 300 km/h and I agree. However some sections of this line sections of this line were built with curvature which creates speed restriction below the this maximum.

With regard to to the lines south of Orleans, the publically available RFF data is inconclusive as 200 km/h and 220 km/p is not differentiated. During the period when a tilting TGV line to Limoge was abandonned, there was some investment in these lines which prepared then for 220 km/h running by TGV's only but they have only been sporadicaaly used by TGVs'


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## Trainman Dave

Joop20 said:


> I'm sure the place on the HSL map is meant to be Rotterdam, not the Hague. Rotterdam is located abit more to the southeast as is currently displayed on the map however.


I agree that it could be Rotterdam which but it needs to move southeast.


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## Trainman Dave

With regard to Italy, we may be disagreeing about defintions. The following lines are in question:

Pioltello - Melzo - Treviglio was quadrupled in 2001 but no speed increases were announced
Bologna - Verona is still in progress as all the sections have not yet been completed
Padova - Venezia Mestre was quadrupled in 2007 and a speed increase to 220 km/h was annouced but only a short section used a new alignment.
Undine - Tarvisio was significantly upgraded in 2000 with most of the new route operatin at 200 km/h but with sections in tunnels and high curvature operating at less.

The issue is what constitutes a new line in contrast to upgrading an existing line. I am conservative if the new route uses the mostly the track bed (more than 50%) of the old route which not longer exisits as an entity, I call it an upgrade. Under this rule only the the Undine - Tarvisio is probably qualifies but even it is questionable.


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## flierfy

elfabyanos said:


> ^^ Thank you for this!!! You may be able to tell but Germany is broadly based on the ICE network map from wikipedia. I take it on your edit of the map above you have conformed to the colour key? More 300+km/h lines great. I need to verify of course, if you have any links that will be helpful but I'm sure I can find some evidence if as you say it's u/c. When did construction start?


Construction started in mid 1990s. It was halted a few years later just to restart again in recent years. The project has rather low priority, so funds are stretched over two decades. But with so many tunnels and bridges under construction now the government will push to finish this line finally.
You find some information on wikipedia [1] [2].


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## Joop20

Found more lines that should be added to the map:

- Gardermobanen in Norway. According to the article on wikipedia, trains run up to 210km/h on this 60km track from Oslo's airport to Oslo. Apperantly, this line will be extended to Drammen in 2008, but this new section will not be high-speed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Norway

- Croatia is working on a rail line that connects Zagreb and Rijeka. _'To begin with, the existing line from Botovo via Zagreb to Karlovac will be brought up to date, and a completely new railway line will be constructed from Karlovac to Rijeka. In the future passenger trains will be able to travel at speeds of up to 200 km/h on the new line.' _ http://www.wieninternational.at/en/node/3426


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## sotavento

Trainman Dave said:


> *elfabyanos *
> Once again thank you, Elfabyanos, for your patient efforts to create a Euro HSL map. While I have a few concerns about the categories which you have chosen to use those are not important now. I have been combing through your maps for some time and I would like to offer the following comments (sorted by country):
> 
> Portugal: I agree with your last posted map version#15 (#262)
> I am vehemently opposed to “sotavento’s” map of Portugal.
> ~ Maybe it will happen, but the most likely next event will be another re-plan and new priorities.
> 
> Spain: I applaud your attempts to sort out the rapidly moving developments in Spain and I will comment later
> 
> Denmark: the maximum speed is 180 km/h
> ~ this speed applies only to the Kobenhavn – Odense – Arhus line
> ~ I would suggest adding the lines to Rodby and Padborg for connectivity
> 
> Sweden: to be added


So as per your own mightiness sole autority we get:

International lines are MISSLABELED and missplaced and STOP at the border Spain/Portugal.

The entire network in portugal is MISPLACED and HALF the current +200km/h lines are subtracted from it ... (even the blue stretches are wrongly placed)

The 100% NEW Porto-Vigo line is NEGATED in portugal and in Spain is turned into an "upgraded" (rose) line. 

Alfa Pendular (internationaly considered an HS service) routes are not on the map. 

hno:











GREY = Alfa Pendular HighSpeed Services 
(notice that only services run with 250km/h Pendulinos are shown ... supressed the 200km/h loco hauled IC services) 

Orange = Porto-vigo will be NEW 250km/h mixed traffic line ... suposedly in vigo it will even carry METRO traffic ... 
Porto-Braga will use the current line (it's at 200/220 km/h standards) 
Trofa variant has been anounced (as in works published in DR "oficial state anouncement journal) so they will start soon.

BLUE = 
"North line" = Lisboa-Porto 2/3 at 200/220 km/h standards ... 
- works currently north of lisbon and Espinho ... 
- the remaining south grey area will be upgraded to HS standards.
- the upgrades of the central and north sections were postponed and will instead be a part of the new HSL 

"South Line" = Lisboa-Algarve ... 1/2 at 200/220km/h
- work currently near Alcacer do Sal ... 250km/h 2 track viaduct under construction (I will be posting pics soon)
- the 1/2 south part of the line will either be upgraded to 200 km/h or they will upgrade/built a 50% new line from evora to Beja and Faro

"Evora Line" (little grey spur in middle of lisboa-madrid line) = it's suposed to be a part of direct sines-badajoz line ... was renewed in 2006 with double-gauge sleepers in a completely rebuilt alignement ... suposed to be 2 track 250km/h but currently only 1 track and not electrified (electrification on the area expected/planed to be anounced late this year). 

RED
Lisboa-Porto = only the middle section is past studies phase ... but don't confuse "in progress" with indecisions ... it WILL be constructed and operational in the next 4/5 years. 

Lisboa-Madrid = work will start before this year ends (actualy they are speaking of starting before the summer) ... and by 2010 they WILL be finished. :cheers:

^^ Everytime we and the spanish decide on something we deliver it on time. :lol:

And by the way .. I am strongly oposed to your biased views of what is High Speed or not ... specialy to your blantant duality of criteria when you confront small-everithing-near countries to vast everithing-miles-aways countries. hno:

but please direvt your anger at these folks instead of miself:

RAVE wich insists on confronting you and project new HSL in portugal
http://www.rave.pt/homepage.asp

REFER wich insists on confronting you and built new HSL in portugal
http://www.refer.pt/

CP wich insists on confronting you and run HS trains in portugal
http://www.cp.pt/

MOPTC wich insists on having a state policy of modernizing our rail infraestructure to high speed standards
http://www.moptc.gov.pt/

Lukilly we are not talking about deep harbours (we have 7 or 8 major), airports (we have a dozen and are finishing some more) or even highways (some 3000km built and more 500km in construction) ... or we would be even more strongly "oposed" by your mightiness. hno:

Continue to negate REALITY all you want ... we can live well with it.


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## Dinivan

^^ According to CP, it takes 2h44m from Lisbon to Porto with the fastest train for a distance of around 300km, how fast is that? 110km/h on average?
In rave webpage you can find this map of high-speed network in Portugal








but according to the same webpage I understand that everything is just being studied, not being built.

It would be great if you could give a specific link to an institutional webpage showing these things you mention are already under construction.


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## elfabyanos

Sotavento - You are missing the point of this map. It's not about putting stuff on there for whoever shouts loud enough.

I actually want to know what's happening in the Portuguese network. I know upgrades have occurred and that new build lines are imminent. But I haven't got a clue was happening and shouting out what you know and making your own maps does not satisfy me, sorry. Placing links to various website homepages that are in Portuguese and require me search for relevent info, if there is any, in a foreign language does nothing to help either.

Please post some maps that weren't drawn by yourself, or some government/contractor supporting documents and then explain the meaning of them. Please do not feel that I am deliberately berating Portugal - I am only doing one thing - drawing an EVIDENCE based map.


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## Euklidisk

What does "New build lines" mean? A classic line can be near completely redrawn and thus reach the same standard as a new one. E.g. when a single track line is upgraded to double track, and when there is no need for both an old line and a parallel new high standard double track.

This is what I mean:

1, single track - low standard
2, upgrade with continuous high standard double track
3, left over single tracks teared up

orange: old single track line, black: new double track upgrade:


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## Joop20

> RED
> Lisboa-Porto = only the middle section is past studies phase ... but don't confuse "in progress" with indecisions ... it WILL be constructed and operational in the next 4/5 years.
> 
> Lisboa-Madrid = work will start before this year ends (actualy they are speaking of starting before the summer) ... and by 2010 they WILL be finished. :cheers:


Since these lines aren't under construction yet, they shouldn't be included on the map. 



> And by the way .. I am strongly oposed to your biased views of what is High Speed or not ... specialy to your blantant duality of criteria when you confront small-everithing-near countries to vast everithing-miles-aways countries. hno:


What are you talking about??? We're trying to make a map here that is correct and complete, and not based on rumours. Incoherent replies like yours won't help to create such a map. If you would actually give some sources for your suggestions, it would help I guess. And I don't understand half the things you're typing in your posts...

If you don't want to give input for this map, fine, but stop accusing people please.


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## elfabyanos

Euklidisk said:


> What does "New build lines" mean?


This is a difficult distinction and at the moment I'm kind of working on a case by case basis.

If the track has been replaced with better track, and the signalling replaced with better signalling, and maybe track lowered under bridges and tunnels, to fit either bigger trains and/or electrification, I would class this as an upgrade. Even if there are major alterations to structures, and some occasional realignment, perhaps new bridges as well to replace level crossings or bridges that cause alignment constraint, I would still class this as an upgrade.

If new tracks are going down that aren't replacing what's already there (i.e. doubling) then I think it depends on the pre-existing trackbed, as in re-doubling track that used be double track before leaner times on the railways, then that's still an upgrade to me.

If new tracks are going down that require major alterations to existing structures, such as on the Trent valley four tracking scheme, then this is where it gets border line for me. Most of this I would just class as an upgrade, but in the end I think there will be parts of the trent valley line that should class as a new build as there were never 4 tracks on some sections before the upgrade. Unfortunately it seems that the new tracks will actually be used for slow trains and the existing ones upgraded for 200km/h, so mostly the trent valley is an upgrade.

If new tracks are being built alongside and existing trackbed, such as in some parts of Spain and Germany, then I class this as a new build.

Re Bologna and Verona, I see this as a new line, because FS have basically ripped everything up and started again, no incremental improvement but a total step change. I think this is where the definition gets difficult.

To cut a long story short we're going to have to reach some kind of consensus on it.


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## Trainman Dave

elfabyanos said:


> This is a difficult distinction and at the moment I'm kind of working on a case by case basis.
> 
> If the track has been replaced with better track, and the signalling replaced with better signalling, and maybe track lowered under bridges and tunnels, to fit either bigger trains and/or electrification, I would class this as an upgrade. Even if there are major alterations to structures, and some occasional realignment, perhaps new bridges as well to replace level crossings or bridges that cause alignment constraint, I would still class this as an upgrade.
> 
> If new tracks are going down that aren't replacing what's already there (i.e. doubling) then I think it depends on the pre-existing trackbed, as in re-doubling track that used be double track before leaner times on the railways, then that's still an upgrade to me.
> 
> If new tracks are going down that require major alterations to existing structures, such as on the Trent valley four tracking scheme, then this is where it gets border line for me. Most of this I would just class as an upgrade, but in the end I think there will be parts of the trent valley line that should class as a new build as there were never 4 tracks on some sections before the upgrade. Unfortunately it seems that the new tracks will actually be used for slow trains and the existing ones upgraded for 200km/h, so mostly the trent valley is an upgrade.
> 
> If new tracks are being built alongside and existing trackbed, such as in some parts of Spain and Germany, then I class this as a new build.
> 
> Re Bologna and Verona, I see this as a new line, because FS have basically ripped everything up and started again, no incremental improvement but a total step change. I think this is where the definition gets difficult.
> 
> To cut a long story short we're going to have to reach some kind of consensus on it.



I would also include in the criteria for an upgrade rather than a new line the operational status of the line during the period of construction.

If all service is abandonned during the construction this would be evidience of a new line. 
However if service continues during construction along the same basic alignment that would constitute an upgrade.


----------



## Trainman Dave

Here is my summary of the history of the double tracking of the Bologna to Verona line:
Began in 1986 but curtailed in 1993-97 investment plan with a little progress by 1999. By 2007 completed 74 of 114 km (65%)
- completed Bologna <13> Tavernelle Emillia by 2000 
- completed Tavernelle Emillia <8> San Giovanni by 2002
- completed San Giovanni <8> Crevalcore in 2006
- completed Crevalcore <14> San Felice sul Panaro in 2007
- expect to complete San Felice <17> Poggio Rusco by June 2008?
- expect to complete Poggio Rusco <7?> Ostiglia by Dec 2008?
~~~~ the Po bridge was recontracted in 2005 for completion in 2008
- expect to complete Ostiglia<16>Nogara by Dec 2008?
- completed Nogara <10> Isola della Scala in 2002
- completed Isola della Scala <21> Verona in September 2001

This upgrade is not yet complete but the line has remained in service during the entire 20+ years period of the upgrades. The procedure for rebuilding this line is: first build a second track beside the original and then replace the original. This process is an upgrade in my lexicon.

This information is compilation many reports reviewed in many sources. After a brief review I believe that the primary sources were news reports in two magasines:
Today's Railways Europe
The International Railway Gazette


----------



## sotonsi

amirtaheri said:


> I would class the Republic of Turkey as a part of Europe thus qualifies for this!


why? most of it is in Asia, including it's capital!

It would be like saying that Indonesia is an Australasian/Oceanian country due to everything east of Bali and Kalimantan (taking the Wallace line - there are other ones) being geographically not in Asia - most of the population is west of it (ie, in Asia) as is most of the land (though Indonesia has a lower proportion of Asian land than Turkey).

This HSL isn't European at all. Maybe if areas it goes through end up on the map's rectangle, then it should go on. However if not then the map shouldn't be expanded to show it.


----------



## Falcon83

Trainman Dave said:


> Here is my summary of the history of the double tracking of the Bologna to Verona line:
> Began in 1986 but curtailed in 1993-97 investment plan with a little progress by 1999. By 2007 completed 74 of 114 km (65%)
> - completed Bologna <13> Tavernelle Emillia by 2000
> - completed Tavernelle Emillia <8> San Giovanni by 2002
> - completed San Giovanni <8> Crevalcore in 2006
> - completed Crevalcore <14> San Felice sul Panaro in 2007
> - expect to complete San Felice <17> Poggio Rusco by June 2008?
> - expect to complete Poggio Rusco <7?> Ostiglia by Dec 2008?
> ~~~~ the Po bridge was recontracted in 2005 for completion in 2008
> - expect to complete Ostiglia<16>Nogara by Dec 2008?
> - completed Nogara <10> Isola della Scala in 2002
> - completed Isola della Scala <21> Verona in September 2001
> 
> This upgrade is not yet complete but the line has remained in service during the entire 20+ years period of the upgrades. The procedure for rebuilding this line is: first build a second track beside the original and then replace the original. This process is an upgrade in my lexicon.
> 
> This information is compilation many reports reviewed in many sources. After a brief review I believe that the primary sources were news reports in two magasines:
> Today's Railways Europe
> The International Railway Gazette


Well if you consider that the old railway was built by Emperor Franz Joseph, the 20 years old railway and not completed yet (main problems were on the new Po bridge, and it was built 2 years ago) can be considered as new basically. It will have the ertms and other stuff too. It is not an upgrade, it's a new railway, the old Austrian binary will be removed.


----------



## Trainman Dave

an update for Italy: 
~ A new HSL from Naples to Nocera Superiore just before the tunnel to Salerno has been opened in 2008 and I have verified that the speed for this new line is 250 km/h (e-Mail from the Italian contributor to Today’s Railway Europe). It connectes Naples to the S.Lucia tunnel.
~ Construction of the diversion Nocera Inferiore-Salerno took place 1965 -1977 and avoided the steepest 9 km Cava dei Tirreni-Nocera Inferiore section (up to 25 ‰). The new S.Lucia tunnel, 10.3 km long, has max incline of 8 ‰, and allows speed of 150 km/h and it reduces the distance between Salerno and Nocera Inferiore of 2.4 km. 
~ the same source has no idea when, if ever, the new Salerno-Battipaglia line will be built

In my opinion the S.Lucia tunnel is unlikely to be replaced any time soon by a faster line so I would include it as a grey line


----------



## elfabyanos

Trainman Dave said:


> I would also include in the criteria for an upgrade rather than a new line the operational status of the line during the period of construction.
> 
> If all service is abandonned during the construction this would be evidience of a new line.
> However if service continues during construction along the same basic alignment that would constitute an upgrade.


That's a good criteria, possibly it's the most relevent. Regardless of what's being engineered, doing things in small parts to allow the line to be in use is going to reduce the maximum amount of work that can be achieved at any one moment, effectively limiting the possibilities of the upgrade. It's possibly the reason why we've made the distinction.

I agree re Bologna-Verona, I wasn't aware of it's construction history.


----------



## Trainman Dave

sotavento said:


> So as per your own mightiness sole autority we get:
> 
> International lines are MISSLABELED and missplaced and STOP at the border Spain/Portugal.
> 
> The entire network in portugal is MISPLACED and HALF the current +200km/h lines are subtracted from it ... (even the blue stretches are wrongly placed)
> 
> The 100% NEW Porto-Vigo line is NEGATED in portugal and in Spain is turned into an "upgraded" (rose) line.
> 
> Alfa Pendular (internationaly considered an HS service) routes are not on the map.


*sotavento*

I am aware that you are realy angry at me and I am guilty, as many SCC posters are of not reading carefully. At the same time, your anger covers up your really important points.

You are absolutely correct; *elfabyanos* does need to recognise on his maps that the "alfa pendular" service in Portugal now extends to Braga in the north and to Faro in the south.

I make no claim to be the "mightiness or sole autority". I do, however, claim to have ridden the first Japenes Shinkansen in 1970's and ever since I have been tracking the development of high speed railways not just in europe but arround the world for over 30 years by now. At first this was very difficult because we did not have the information sources which now exsist on the Internet. However I do, and have have for many years, read five monthly magasines which publish the press releases from all the major railroads and I have e-Mail notification of updated news reports.

I have learned to review press announcement with a jaundiced eye. As a result I tend to only believe that a new projects might actually happen when construction actually begins and not before.

You have implied that I downplay the accomplishments of smaller countries at the expense of a few larger countires. That is absolutely true! Many smaller countries make wonderfull pronouncements in the press but never follow through. Amoung the culprits: Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Slovakia, The Czech Republic (my wifes birth place), Poland, the Netherlands and Portugal.

For Portugal specifically:
1992 construction started on a 220 km/h line Lisbon - Porto
1999 National Laboratory of Civil Engineering studied track stability at high speed and concluded that speeds of 220 km/h may never be achieved. 
1999 the goernment abandonedd the 220 km/h after leass than 60 km have been completed
2004 electrification was completed to support the European Cup football tournament
2006 Linha do Norte modernization funded for upgrade to 160 km/h for completion in 2008
2009 planned opening of the Ota International Airport but replaned in in 2008 for Barreira which requires a major investment in a new bridge ove the Tagus river.

I followed the Euro 2004 investment with great interest as it was the impetus for substantial investment in the Portugese network and like most similar events did just enough to survive. None of the reports which I read in the "english language press" ever discussed speed increases before Euro 2004. Since then there has been a change of government and a new set of priorities.

With regard to your map, I have the following comments:
1) I agree that the "Alfa Pendular service" extends to Brage and Faro
2) I believe that you over state the percentage of the Porto to Lisbon line which is permitted operate at 220 km/h.
3) I cannot find any evidence in the "English language" press which confirms that the trains are operating at more than 160 km/h south of Lisboa
4) I agree that there are proposals for construction of new lines north of Lisboa and on the Lisboa to Badajoz routes but I have no evidence that contracts have been finalized let alone work started. In fact I have more notes about freight from Sines to Badajoz than the HSL to Spain
5) I agree that there is a proposal for a connector to Vigo but I am cannot confirm any of the details like speed or schedule.

Once again I am sorry to make you angry but you need to study the Portugese documents about these proposals and give us English translations of the specific documents, or at least "hyperlinks" to the specific pages so that we can find the data which you are proclaiming to exist.

Please help us with specifics


----------



## RawLee

A question: the thread is about tracks that are capable of handling high speeds,or where trains travel with high speed?


----------



## Trainman Dave

RawLee said:


> A question: the thread is about tracks that are capable of handling high speeds,or where trains travel with high speed?


Both


----------



## Trainman Dave

France: additional inputs:
~ TGV trains run all the way to LeHarve
~ TGV Trains run from Arras to Valenciennes

Switzerland a concern:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B6tschberg_Base_Tunnel


> Travel speeds
> Regular freight trains: 100 km/h (~60 mph)
> Qualified freight trains: 160 km/h (~100 mph)
> Passenger trains: 200 km/h (~120 mph)
> Tilting passenger trains: 250 km/h (~160 mph)


This is speed increase of 50 km/h or 20% for tilting trains. Is this accetpable ELf?


----------



## E2rdEm

Trainman Dave said:


> RawLee said:
> 
> 
> 
> A question: the thread is about tracks that are capable of handling high speeds,or where trains travel with high speed?
> 
> 
> 
> Both
Click to expand...

You have to be more specific. :lol: Because there is a problem with Poland.
Here's a map to illustrate (I've taken a map from Wikipedia article about CMK line (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMK) and added blue elements):


I wrote it before in this thread, but now I'll explain using the above map.

The red line is the CMK. This is a line built in 1971-77. So it would not qualify as a newly built after 1978... But passenger revenue service started on this line in 1980.
The routing of this line was made to 250 km/h standards. Currently the whole line (start-to-end) is operated at 160 km/h, however the official list of max. speeds on polish tracks (can be found here, and this is line no.4) states that a part is allowed for 200 km/h operation for conventional (non-tiliting) trains. That is a part I've marked with solid blue on the map.

I don't know if you want to qualify this line as newly-built or an upgrade. But, since there's no revenue service on the line with speeds greater than 160 km/h (and I don't think there will be any 200 km/h operation in a couple of years), then I suppose you won't bother to draw it - neither in yellow, nor in blue. 

--------------------
The three blue dots i've placed on the map is a first part of upgrade of the line Warszawa-Gdańsk to 200 km/h (but only for titlting trains, the speed limit for loco-hauled will be 160). The construction started last year on the short stretch between Warszawa and Legionowo (only 20 km). You can see some pics from this upgrade in the thread on polish subforum: some official pics on this page and some unofficial ones on page 15 to 20.

The tender for some construction works on other parts of this line is expected this year, but the construction works have not started yet. The whole 320-km line Warszawa-Gdańsk will be upgraded until 2015. Some 70% of the distance will be 200 km/h.

-------------------
To sum up: There are no HSTrains in Poland yet. We have something that would eventually qualify as HSL (or HSL possibility ). There are plans for true HSL, but at the moment it's only politicians-talk, so that's definitely out of the scope of this thread.
I just felt the need to explain the situation in Poland.


----------



## Trainman Dave

E2rdEm said:


> You have to be more specific. :lol: Because there is a problem with Poland.
> 
> I wrote it before in this thread, but now I'll explain using the above map.
> 
> The red line is the CMK. This is a line built in 1971-77. So it would not qualify as a newly built after 1978... But passenger revenue service started on this line in 1980.
> The routing of this line was made to 250 km/h standards. Currently the whole line (start-to-end) is operated at 160 km/h, however the official list of max. speeds on polish tracks (can be found here, and this is line no.4) states that a part is allowed for 200 km/h operation for conventional (non-tiliting) trains. That is a part I've marked with solid blue on the map.
> 
> I don't know if you want to qualify this line as newly-built or an upgrade. But, since there's no revenue service on the line with speeds greater than 160 km/h (and I don't think there will be any 200 km/h operation in a couple of years), then I suppose you won't bother to draw it - neither in yellow, nor in blue.
> 
> --------------------
> The three blue dots i've placed on the map is a first part of upgrade of the line Warszawa-Gdańsk to 200 km/h (but only for titlting trains, the speed limit for loco-hauled will be 160). The construction started last year on the short stretch between Warszawa and Legionowo (only 20 km). You can see some pics from this upgrade in the thread on polish subforum: some official pics on this page and some unofficial ones on page 15 to 20.
> 
> The tender for some construction works on other parts of this line is expected this year, but the construction works have not started yet. The whole 320-km line Warszawa-Gdańsk will be upgraded until 2015. Some 70% of the distance will be 200 km/h.
> 
> -------------------
> To sum up: There are no HSTrains in Poland yet. We have something that would eventually qualify as HSL (or HSL possibility ). There are plans for true HSL, but at the moment it's only politicians-talk, so that's definitely out of the scope of this thread.
> I just felt the need to explain the situation in Poland.


Thank you for your input. I agree with you that the CMK in Poland is a real anomaly. I have been tracking it for many years waiting for regular service at 200 km/h. I traveled the triangle Wein - Warsaw - Prague in 1993 and timed both trains using the the kilometer posts on the CMK. I am fairly confident that I clock several sections at more than 180 km/h but my timing was very crude. 

This demonstrates the problem that exisits with trying to draw the HSL map for Europe. There a significant number of lines all over Europe where the civil engineering is capabale of sustaining 200 km/h operations but neither the trains or the signaling are available to take advantage of the civil engineering.


----------



## sotavento

Trainman Dave said:


> *sotavento*
> 
> I am aware that you are realy angry at me and I am guilty, as many SCC posters are of not reading carefully. At the same time, your anger covers up your really important points.
> 
> You are absolutely correct; *elfabyanos* does need to recognise on his maps that the "alfa pendular" service in Portugal now extends to Braga in the north and to Faro in the south.
> 
> I make no claim to be the "mightiness or sole autority". I do, however, claim to have ridden the first Japenes Shinkansen in 1970's and ever since I have been tracking the development of high speed railways not just in europe but arround the world for over 30 years by now. At first this was very difficult because we did not have the information sources which now exsist on the Internet. However I do, and have have for many years, read five monthly magasines which publish the press releases from all the major railroads and I have e-Mail notification of updated news reports.
> 
> I have learned to review press announcement with a jaundiced eye. As a result I tend to only believe that a new projects might actually happen when construction actually begins and not before.
> 
> You have implied that I downplay the accomplishments of smaller countries at the expense of a few larger countires. That is absolutely true! Many smaller countries make wonderfull pronouncements in the press but never follow through. Amoung the culprits: Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Slovakia, The Czech Republic (my wifes birth place), Poland, the Netherlands and Portugal.


Why shuld I be angry at you ??? We are simply having some _"disagreements"_ as to what should we call _"high speed"_ , _"under construction"_ or even as to what is _"upgraded track"_ or _"new lines"_. :cheers:

Press reviews ??? my previous posts were based on Public Law decrees ... government issued only (And dificult/meaningless to put in here since its all political giberish and no technical details whatsoever).



Trainman Dave said:


> For Portugal specifically:
> 1992 construction started on a 220 km/h line Lisbon - Porto
> 1999 National Laboratory of Civil Engineering studied track stability at high speed and concluded that speeds of 220 km/h may never be achieved.
> 1999 the goernment abandonedd the 220 km/h after leass than 60 km have been completed
> 2004 electrification was completed to support the European Cup football tournament
> 2006 Linha do Norte modernization funded for upgrade to 160 km/h for completion in 2008
> 2009 planned opening of the Ota International Airport but replaned in in 2008 for Barreira which requires a major investment in a new bridge ove the Tagus river.


1992 construction of what ??? in 1992 they merely started earth moving works for the reconstructed Azambuja comuter station (terminal of urban trains from Lisboa to the north) ... and indeed it was built with a layout to alow 4 tracks and 220 km/h trains runing through the station ... but the station was finished in 1995. 

1999 studies resulted in 2/3 of the Northern line being DEMOLISHED and RECONSTRUCTED to allow high speed ... much of the "extra" €€€ws in fact spent in +1000m viaducts ... 4000m radii curves and a complete replacement of bridges/underpassages and supression of some 600(?) level crossings <<< northern line alone 
Alfa Pendular trains in fact run in the modernized line at 227/228 km/h in a daily base (its as far as CONVEL tolerance permits) ... and using the full tilt of 8% alond most of it.

Where do you get that "the government abandoned the 220 km/h ??? hno:


2004 ... electrificaation of what ??? they continue to electrify the network untill today ... and it will continue.
Let me recall what was electified around the euro timeline: (from memory only)

Contumil-Cête-Caide (Douro Line) = track doubled , speed ugraded to 120 km/h and electrification ... Electrification to Regua was just "anounced" (as in the decree to begin works has been published in Diario da republica) <<< its not an HSL in any way
Contumil-Ermesinde-Lousado-Nine-Braga = track doubled , speed ugraded to 140/200 km/h and electrification ... there are actualy some parts where the OLD single line remains at 140 and at its side is a new 200 km/h line <<< it's a 140/200 km/h MAIN LINE soon to be fully upgraded to 220 km/h ... it is still being worked upon (new trofa variant)
Lousado-guimarães = was NARROW GAUGE and was converted to a windy and curvy 90km/h broad iberic gauge electrified <<< there are Intercity trains Guimarães-Lisboa wich are able to run at 200 km/h in northern line but in NO way I'm going to add this line to the HSL table. :bash:
Contumil-Campanha was completely remodeled ... now it sports 5 tracks plus one in tunel all electrified
Campanha-Gaia saw the construction of a new bridge over Douro river in 1992 (huge for that time ... small by todays standards)

This covers north of douro.

Pampilhosa-Guarda-VilarFormosos (direct line to Irun) was upgraded in 1995(?) ... it's a shame that they didn't expet to buy pendular trains ... its a 140/160 km/h line (full of curves and tunels) and if they had built it with enough space as to alow pendulation it would be possible to run at 200/220km/h overt there. 
Entroncamento-C.Branco-Covilhã is still being upgraded and electrified ... not in any way HSL ... 
Lisboa-entroncamento-Pombal-Pampilhosa-Aveiro-Porto (northern line) is a mixture of brand new trackbed and alignement at 220 km/h from entroncamento to Alfarelos and from Pampilhosa to Espinho (the 4 stations being outside the renewed areas) ... line in espinho is being upgraded ... actualy theres a tunel with station included under construction. 
Lisboa area has seen some major upgrading of it's urban/comuter network wih includes 40km of 4 track from inner Lisboa all the way to Azambuja at 200/220 km/h ... being Alhandra-VFXira a 4km bottleneck (currently being upgraded but not to HS standards ... and the work from azambuja to entroncamento is being "downgraded" (they were upgrading to 220 but the decision to move to a new HSL has made them cut some corners here and there) << there is work in the ground here also

Then theres the 35km "cross Tejo" new line ... the project was extended to Setubal ... more than half is presently at speeds of 200 km/h.
The 300km "itenerario dos graneis" (freight itinerary) was electrified (it includes a part or totality of sines , south , alentejo , vendas nova , norte , beira baixa lines) and is operated by double traction of 5600 electric locomotives pulling +2000 ton coal trains wich run both ways several times a day. 
And then theres the project to get the electrification all the way to Faro wich was an extension of the freight line and saw the line from Pinhal Novo all the way until funcheira (Torre Vã actualy) being upgraded to 250 km/h in a completely new alignement (the "new" line was built alongside the old one in the straight zone and where the old line was curvy a new direct variant was built) ... currently theres still work going on to complete this line.
^Of the 160km from lisboa to Funcheira theres 20km currently being upgraded near Alcacer ... the rest is up to standards with HSL at 250km/h.

^^ Most of this happened from 1997 untill present day 


^^ You seem to lack a "credible"/"knowgeable" source of information of what has been going on over here.

I for myself need to search and try to find where I put the train orders for alfa pendular and intercity trains ... thats where the real "speed" is anounced properly. :cheers: 



> I followed the Euro 2004 investment with great interest as it was the impetus for substantial investment in the Portugese network and like most similar events did just enough to survive. None of the reports which I read in the "english language press" ever discussed speed increases before Euro 2004. Since then there has been a change of government and a new set of priorities.
> 
> With regard to your map, I have the following comments:
> 1) I agree that the "Alfa Pendular service" extends to Brage and Faro
> 2) I believe that you over state the percentage of the Porto to Lisbon line which is permitted operate at 220 km/h.
> 3) I cannot find any evidence in the "English language" press which confirms that the trains are operating at more than 160 km/h south of Lisboa
> 4) I agree that there are proposals for construction of new lines north of Lisboa and on the Lisboa to Badajoz routes but I have no evidence that contracts have been finalized let alone work started. In fact I have more notes about freight from Sines to Badajoz than the HSL to Spain
> 5) I agree that there is a proposal for a connector to Vigo but I am cannot confirm any of the details like speed or schedule.
> 
> Once again I am sorry to make you angry but you need to study the Portugese documents about these proposals and give us English translations of the specific documents, or at least "hyperlinks" to the specific pages so that we can find the data which you are proclaiming to exist.
> 
> Please help us with specifics


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUnENFnq9-k&feature=related

^^ Alfa Pendular 186 (Afernoon southbound Porto-Faro) somewhere near Grandola (20:28 ... it leaves Pinhal Novo at 17:30 so it's down there) 

For myself the maximum speed I recorded was 225km/h south of Alvalade:
(lowsy 1,3mp camera and lack of light)









Notice the speedometer needle if you can't read properly:









Wen't as far as 228 km/h in that run ... but bateries were empty and I just passed to video mode. 


As a sidenotice: 
The national speed record is currently in the hands of a diesel Spanish talgo (the ADIF one?) with somewhere near 260km/h ... Alfa Pendular has reached above 250 km/h on trials without limiters and a double traction of 5600 eurosprinter loco hauled 13 coach train reached near 240km/h .... even a "regional" CP 2240 is said to have reached abover 180km/h in south line. 
^Need to find "oficial" confirmed sourced for these records. hno:

The contracts for the HSL are being reviewed by the bidders ... half a dozen ACE have already came forward with proposals ... work should start soon ... things progress very fast in the HS business here ... too fast. hno:


----------



## sotavento

sotonsi said:


> why? most of it is in Asia, including it's capital!
> 
> It would be like saying that Indonesia is an Australasian/Oceanian country due to everything east of Bali and Kalimantan (taking the Wallace line - there are other ones) being geographically not in Asia - most of the population is west of it (ie, in Asia) as is most of the land (though Indonesia has a lower proportion of Asian land than Turkey).
> 
> This HSL isn't European at all. Maybe if areas it goes through end up on the map's rectangle, then it should go on. However if not then the map shouldn't be expanded to show it.


That is bullocks ... Eurasia is a large land mass with lots of "spurs" and some smaller tectonic plates atached.

the anciant europe/asia definition refered to greece-turkey alone and china/india were not "asia"

the new defenition referes some "asia" major continent with various sub regions and a small isloated and independent spur called europe.

Just pick up any map ... Turkey is a small territory in balcans(?) and a large land mass in the middle east ... well .. .considering that the MAJOR infreaestructure of the ne Turkish HSL is precisely the tunel that joins both parts it should definetily be included here. :cheers:


----------



## sotavento

Dinivan said:


> ^^ According to CP, it takes 2h44m from Lisbon to Porto with the fastest train for a distance of around 300km, how fast is that? 110km/h on average?
> In rave webpage you can find this map of high-speed network in Portugal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but according to the same webpage I understand that everything is just being studied, not being built.
> 
> It would be great if you could give a specific link to an institutional webpage showing these things you mention are already under construction.


there are 330km between Oriente and Gaia and they are run in 2h31 minutes with 2 intermediate stops at Aveiro and Coimbra ... loooong stops at it ... trains have much extra time in their shedules actualy. 



elfabyanos said:


> Sotavento - You are missing the point of this map. It's not about putting stuff on there for whoever shouts loud enough.
> 
> I actually want to know what's happening in the Portuguese network. I know upgrades have occurred and that new build lines are imminent. But I haven't got a clue was happening and shouting out what you know and making your own maps does not satisfy me, sorry. Placing links to various website homepages that are in Portuguese and require me search for relevent info, if there is any, in a foreign language does nothing to help either.
> 
> Please post some maps that weren't drawn by yourself, or some government/contractor supporting documents and then explain the meaning of them. Please do not feel that I am deliberately berating Portugal - I am only doing one thing - drawing an EVIDENCE based map.


I'm not "missing" the point ... I'm just havingas much dificulty to find the "data" as you are ... be it in portuguese or any other language ... that is the "real" problem. hno: 

But if to you guys the OFICIAL PAGE with the "environmental impact studies" and everithing else is of no good ... just might as well remove portugal , spain and everyone else thad doesn0t speak english as their mother tongue. :bash:

And by the way ... 1st fall of the axe on "northern line" upgrade program:

Santarem Variant just went into AIA ... it will be 26km long ... 160km/h to conventional trains ... 190km/h to pendular trains ... half of it will be in viaducts and tunels (Santarem station included) <<< originaly it was intended as a 200km/h (250kmh for pendular trains) but since the HSL wil not pass over there it ws downgraded.
source: http://www.refer.pt/pt/noticia.php?id=403

Vila Franca "bottleneck" will be permanent:
- Instead of correcting the route they will make a "riverside walk" ... at a cost of 6M €. hno:
source: http://www.refer.pt/pt/noticia.php?id=357

In the south line the "only" information available (and rather sketchy to say the least):

Alcaçer variant:
30km (of wich more than half put out of work recently renovated tracks) 
source: 
http://www.refer.pt/pt/noticia.php?id=336
http://www.refer.pt/pt/noticia.php?id=386
^^ it doesn't say but it's 250 km/h (w begin to wonder why Refer even has a webpage ... such a lousy excuse for a webpage indeed) hno:

But nothing beats thir lowsy work at planing:

Trofa Variant: (NOT HSL in any way)
3,5km long ... 1400m long tunel and 300m long viaduct ... 120km/h for conventional and 140km/h for pendular trains (wtf?)
source: http://www.refer.pt/pt/noticia.php?id=396


But this seems readable:
http://translate.google.com/transla...82&idold=1071&langpair=pt|en&hl=pt-PT&ie=UTF8

Too bad that only the Impress tables have the real speed limits on them ... refer page realy is in a complete mess. 

The finished projects part of their site is half broken ... the english pages are full of "under construction". hno:


----------



## sotavento

Joop20 said:


> Since these lines aren't under construction yet, they shouldn't be included on the map.
> 
> What are you talking about??? We're trying to make a map here that is correct and complete, and not based on rumours. Incoherent replies like yours won't help to create such a map. If you would actually give some sources for your suggestions, it would help I guess. And I don't understand half the things you're typing in your posts...
> 
> If you don't want to give input for this map, fine, but stop accusing people please.


that refered to TrainmanDave implications only ... please don't take his defense as your duty. :cheers:

It takes some 3 years for a line to begin actualy being worked upon on the field ... theres lots of proceedings and studies to be made ... in the 660km Lisboa-Madrid there are some 50km past that phase ... some 200 near it ... and the rest will follow the same path in the next few months.

Badajoz-Merida has contracts signed ... does that mean that in the event it will never actualy be constructed it is a doted line in that map ???

Looking at the big map ... what makes the entire mileage of the IC125 network automaticaly in the map ??? only in portugal and spain there are lots and lots of trains that run partialy at 200kmh and then follow some windy route that has speeds as low as 90km/h for its entire lenght.

I guess we should start to add those little remote routes where TGV pass ... even when they were hauled by diesel. hno:hno: 


There should be MORE categories in the map.

- Actual "super" high speed routes >= 300km/h (read "more" than 300km/h)
- High speed routes >= 200 upgraded or >= 250 new
- fast routes >= 160km/h (not quite HSL but high speed services run over it) << grey ? or even included in the HSL sections if part of them ??? 

- a grey color would simply denote a long stretch that does not follow HSL standards but in wich HS trains run

- under construction ... go look in the spanish forum and learn with them ... these fall in the under construction part (except the 1st of course):
a) proposed (these can be neglected and left out)
b) studied but dependant (route path not aproved yet ... final path under EIA or public cunsultancy)
c) aproved (route final path decided ... contract put for tenders)
d) adjudicated (contract awarded)
e) under construction 

About what is "upgraded" and what is NEW ... 
1 - A line can be renovated and get to higher standards ... this is "upgraded" 
2 - a nem alignement can be made and the old route abandoned ... this can be called "upgraded" if it follows near the old alignement or eve nhas some sections in comon ... or "new" if it diverges from it by a great distance
3 - if a new line is built alongside an existing section it can be called an "upgrade" (simply adding more lines to an existing route)


----------



## elfabyanos

sotavento said:


> I'm not "missing" the point ... I'm just havingas much dificulty to find the "data" as you are ... be it in portuguese or any other language ... that is the "real" problem. hno:
> 
> But if to you guys the OFICIAL PAGE with the "environmental impact studies" and everithing else is of no good ... just might as well remove portugal , spain and everyone else thad doesn0t speak english as their mother tongue. :bash:


I'm not going to read your posts until you relax. I don't see what the problem is with the approach that has been taken. I am not treating Portugal any different to any other country. Sweden has been removed until anyone can provide clarification which will take time because there is a lot of info to go through earlier in the thread. The polish CMK was removed for the same reason.

The more you scream and shout and jump up and down the less anyone believes you know what you are talking about.


----------



## amirtaheri

sotonsi said:


> why? most of it is in Asia, including it's capital!
> 
> It would be like saying that Indonesia is an Australasian/Oceanian country due to everything east of Bali and Kalimantan (taking the Wallace line - there are other ones) being geographically not in Asia - most of the population is west of it (ie, in Asia) as is most of the land (though Indonesia has a lower proportion of Asian land than Turkey).
> 
> This HSL isn't European at all. Maybe if areas it goes through end up on the map's rectangle, then it should go on. However if not then the map shouldn't be expanded to show it.


Geographically speaking obviously, but politically speaking, it is far more aligned with Europe than anywhere else. My opinion is that it is better to have Turkey within Europe being a part of Europe than it is to isolate it. Politically speaking, it has been a part of Europe for well over a hundred years as a result of the Ottoman Empire and since it's secularisation, been a greater part of it since, as it tried to realign itself. Europe is not and should not just be some exclusive club.


----------



## sotonsi

amirtaheri said:


> Geographically speaking obviously, but politically speaking, it is far more aligned with Europe than anywhere else.


The main question is 'is this a political map, based on what people say, or is it a geographic map'. If it's a political map, then what are called High Speed Lines, regardless of speed, go on. We could end up with some 150km/h line in Eastern Europe counting that way. In England, we'd just have HS1, as the WCML, GWML, XCML and ECML are considered not fast enough, and HS1 is the first high speed line.

My view is that this is a geographic map, others may differ. This line in full will cause a massive space issue, and it's not really in Europe.


> Europe is not and should not just be some exclusive club.


Geographically it's a closed shop - there's some dispute of the border between the Black Sea and the Ural Mountains (and where the line is along there). Political Europe doesn't even cover geographic Europe (Switzerland, much of Eastern Europe, Iceland and Norway) - the EU is not Europe. Asian Cyprus and African Malta are on board - there's no geographic reason why Turkey can't join, though there are others (many of which it's working on, though many of which it's not - eg the Cyprus issue and allowing free speech about the events that may have or may have not occured in 1915).


sotavento said:


> That is bullocks ... Eurasia is a large land mass with lots of "spurs" and some smaller tectonic plates atached.


and this is a European map, not a Eurasian map. Therefore this map is only for HSR in Europe, which 99% of this line isn't - half a tunnel is, and that's it. Because of history, Europe is counted as a separate continent, though you could also count it as a large sub-region of a Eurasia/Eurasia-Africa super continent and my point that this HSR isn't a European one, and therefore outside of the scope of this map, would still stand.


> the anciant europe/asia definition refered to greece-turkey alone and china/india were not "asia"


pointless to say surely? Especially as you are firmly saying that the area of Turkey in question is in Asia, which is my point exactly. It's also quite irrelevant, as we're talking about modern definitions of Europe, which might (if we're feeling generous) include some former soviet countries that are really in Asia (and Cyprus and Malta), but don't tend to include Asiatic Turkey.


> the new defenition referes some "asia" major continent with various sub regions and a small isloated and independent spur called europe.


indeed, and only part of Turkey is in that area called Europe.


> Just pick up any map ... Turkey is a small territory in balcans(?) and a large land mass in the middle east ... well .. .considering that the MAJOR infreaestructure of the ne Turkish HSL is precisely the tunel that joins both parts it should definetily be included here. :cheers:


what's the line speed of the tunnel? While the tunnel would perhaps be included, I can't see any reason to expand the map further south and east (making it bigger, or the scale worse) to include HSR in the Middle East. An arrow saying the end of the line would suffice, if the line in question gets added.


----------



## rheintram

What should be included, at least as "under construction" is:

AUSTRIA:
Brenner Base Tunnel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel
New Lower Inn Valley Railway: Completely new 40 km track for speeds of 250km/h http://www.beg.co.at/implementation/ and http://www.beg.co.at/informationszentrum/trassenverlauf/ (german)


----------



## sotavento

elfabyanos said:


> I'm not going to read your posts until you relax. I don't see what the problem is with the approach that has been taken. I am not treating Portugal any different to any other country. Sweden has been removed until anyone can provide clarification which will take time because there is a lot of info to go through earlier in the thread. The polish CMK was removed for the same reason.
> 
> The more you scream and shout and jump up and down the less anyone believes you know what you are talking about.


Just for the record i wnat to point out that I'm not in any way stressed , screaming or annoyed or whatever.

I'm actualy quite amused to see the complete "lack" of trust in official data about half the peripheric regions when clearly more than half the lines on the central area of the map are passed as "certified" when they clearly are not.

And if you think that I will take any more of my time to give you the full "data" when you are clearly oposing any such contributions ... you are in for some nasty times triing to gather any coherent data on half of the european netowrk.

Since most of the people in this topic are officialy "against" any data published refering to portugal it will never be a "Decent European HSR map" period ... so your future rantings in this thread are of no credibility whatsoever ... at least to me or anybody else who has access to REAL data and not those who consider whatever the _"xpto railway journal correspondent in nowhere.land"_ handles them.

Oficial STATE/RAILWAY published information vs. info from "rail enthusiasts" and "rail enthusiast journalist/correspondent" ... you clearly have settled your standards based on the latter as your main source on reliability.

Too bad ... it looked like this could actualy become a good map but you are missing the understanding of what are the real and reliable sources of information.



sotonsi said:


> The main question is 'is this a political map, based on what people say, or is it a geographic map'. If it's a political map, then what are called High Speed Lines, regardless of speed, go on. We could end up with some 150km/h line in Eastern Europe counting that way. In England, we'd just have HS1, as the WCML, GWML, XCML and ECML are considered not fast enough, and HS1 is the first high speed line.
> 
> ... to include HSR in the Middle East. An arrow saying the end of the line would suffice, if the line in question gets added.


If it is inside the "scope" of the map (it is actualy in the middle of the rectangle) it could be included. 

but what do I know ... its "their" map ... on "their" rules ... let's hope they at leat know what "europe" means and what are it's borders ... 


^^At least that little we can (hopefully) expect to get figured out straight in this map of "theirs" ... "hopefully". hno:


----------



## elfabyanos

sotavento said:


> Just for the record i wnat to point out that I'm not in any way stressed , screaming or annoyed or whatever.
> 
> I'm actualy quite amused to see the complete "lack" of trust in official data about half the peripheric regions when clearly more than half the lines on the central area of the map are passed as "certified" when they clearly are not.


Where? You'll find that I can point to real evidence for any of the lines that are on the map in central europe. If I can't, and it's on there in error, then I remove it. Isn't that reasonable? That's exactly what I've done so far and most people seem to accept this as reasonable.



> And if you think that I will take any more of my time to give you the full "data" when you are clearly oposing any such contributions ... you are in for some nasty times triing to gather any coherent data on half of the european netowrk.


YOU HAVEN'T GIVEN ME ANY EVIDENCE THAT I CAN UNDERSTAND! I DO NOT SPEAK PORTUGUESE!!!



> Since most of the people in this topic are officialy "against" any data published refering to portugal it will never be a "Decent European HSR map" period ... so your future rantings in this thread are of no credibility whatsoever ... at least to me or anybody else who has access to REAL data and not those who consider whatever the _"xpto railway journal correspondent in nowhere.land"_ handles them.
> 
> Oficial STATE/RAILWAY published information vs. info from "rail enthusiasts" and "rail enthusiast journalist/correspondent" ... you clearly have settled your standards based on the latter as your main source on reliability.
> 
> Too bad ... it looked like this could actualy become a good map but you are missing the understanding of what are the real and reliable sources of information.


Stop whinging and provide the real data!!! It's quite simple. What is there for Portugal I did on the basis that I have no information about Portugal but know there is an upgraded line there. You have said it's not geographically correct but you haven't even given me a map of where that line should actually go (as in a real one, from an official source). I can't believe you are complaining about the inaccuracy of my data when you can't even provide a map of a route that's been there for a hundred years.


----------



## sotavento

Whos whinning here ??? Not me certainly!!! :bash:

Reread posts number:

275: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=19043041&postcount=275








^^ Your scale is damn too small even for portugal

293: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=19062714&postcount=293



> 1999 studies resulted in 2/3 of the Northern line being DEMOLISHED and RECONSTRUCTED to allow high speed ...





> The contracts for the HSL are being reviewed by the bidders ... half a dozen ACE have already came forward with proposals ... work should start soon



And about "the map" ... I forgot to add another thing ... it lacks resolution to be of any use ... its too small.


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## sotavento

> Public Tenders International under the RAVE
> 
> Public-Private Partnership for the granting of design, construction, financing, maintenance and provision of rail infrastructure of the section Poceirão - Caia
> 
> Network Rail for High Speed / Os Lisbon - Madrid
> 
> The implementation of a High-Speed Railway Network in Portugal is a commitment to economic development, territorial and social cohesion and modernization of the country, ensuring the establishment of links to the Trans-European Network, a central element of European policy for the revival of transport rail, associated with values of competitiveness, efficiency and sustainability.
> 
> In June 2007, the RAVE proposed and presented publicly the Model Business for implementation of the High Speed Railway Network in Portugal, based on the launch of a number of Public-Private Partnerships, with the aim of ensuring the implementation of the Network on the calendar established while ensuring its comportabilidade to the Portuguese Government, the minimization of risks and quality of service to be provided. This schedule will ensure the full utilization of around 1,500 million euro of Community financial aid already allocated to the project.
> 
> It is in this context it is anticipated that the first tender to be launched on the Public-Private Partnership for the granting of design, construction, financing, maintenance and provision of rail infrastructure of the section Poceirão - Caia, with some of 170 kilometers and a estimated total investment of 1,700 million euros, which is part of the rail link between Lisbon and Madrid.
> 
> In order to enable the anticipation of the detailed knowledge of the technical characteristics of the section to include this contest, interested parties may purchase from the RAVE a collection on digital media editable of relevant studies, including cartographic information, in manipulável through the assignment of a compromise in terms of access to information available and the payment of the price of € 15.000 (fifteen thousand euros) plus VAT to the statutory rate.
> 
> Moreover, the RAVE announced that all studies by the company are available for consultation presence on its premises, sitas in Lisbon, on Avenue D. João II, Lot 1.07.2.1, 1. Th Floor. The consultation will be made by appointment to take to the telephone No 00351 211064000.
> 
> This announcement is aimed at the mere dissemination of information, does not constitute any invitation to employ, or having the nature of periodic indicative notice, or any explicitly provided for in national legislation and EU on procurement.
> 
> Access to information pursuant now disclosed, without prejudice to the respect that this will be regulated under the partnerships relating to the implementation of the High Speed Railway Network in Portugal, in accordance with the law and in parts of the procedures training of contracts that were to be edited.
> 
> 
> Lisbon, March 14, 2008


Translated by google from RAVE anouncement:
http://www.rave.pt/concursos/ppp_poceirao_caia/anuncio.htm

The entire Lisboa(south)-Madrid project line has just rcently been put "for sale" in a single package ... well ahead of shedule actualy. 
- see phase c) option on my list in post 296

Porto-Vigo "service" and the "international station" at Elvas/Badajoz financing were was already tendered (?)some time ago:
http://www.rave.pt/noticia20087.asp

Check the timeline if you have any doubt about anything.
http://www.rave.pt/datas.asp



And for god's sake ... learn how to use online translaction pages like http://translate.google.com/ . hno:


----------



## sotonsi

sotavento said:


> If it is inside the "scope" of the map (it is actualy in the middle of the rectangle) it could be included.


I believe this is the most recent map by elfabyanos.


elfabyanos said:


>


So Asiatic Turkey is in the middle of France? OK, this is a Western Europe tile, but I haven't seen an Eastern Europe one. I would say that this Western Europe tile shouldn't get much bigger - it's a bit taller than standard screen size, and takes up most of the width (992x1024) already - I like maps that don't cause horizontal scrolling and you can see in one go without the scale being awful.

I think there's a simple solution, sotavento - if you don't like elfabyanos' work, make you own map, using your own definitions of Europe, HSL and so on. Adding what you want, on whatever route you want, etc, etc.


----------



## elfabyanos

sotavento said:


> 275: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=19043041&postcount=275
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^ Your scale is damn too small even for portugal
> 
> 293: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=19062714&postcount=293


Again a map you have drawn yourself. Please help me and link to a map with the current route on it.

Re post 275

http://www.rave.pt/homepage.asp - a hompage completely in Portuguese. Great, thanks.

http://www.refer.pt/ - If I click on "welcome" I get a page with


> News
> Newsletter
> 
> Eurobond Issues
> Nov 2006
> On November 9 REFER completed the first part of it's bond issue for 2006, with the pricing of a 20
> 
> >> read
> 
> REFER publications and collectibles
> Jan 2005
> Since its foundation, REFER has been preparing a number of books for publication on various themes i
> 
> >> read
> © 2001-2007, Rede Ferroviária Nacional REFER EP


Exactly what am I looking for here?

http://www.cp.pt/ - again another hompage in Portuguese - what is your point!!!???



> And about "the map" ... I forgot to add another thing ... it lacks resolution to be of any use ... its too small.


Oh shut up. The original is about 4000 pixels accross, I scale it down to fit sensibly on the screen.

And the article about the confirmation of planning - this map is not about planning - thats the reason why the Rhin-Rhone LGV is only showing a dotted line for the 't' of the route, because thats all that is u/c, the stem of the line to Lyon was on there, until it was pointed out to me (and evidence submitted) that tha part was only in the planning stage and should not be on the map


----------



## Trainman Dave

rheintram said:


> What should be included, at least as "under construction" is:
> 
> AUSTRIA:
> Brenner Base Tunnel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel
> New Lower Inn Valley Railway: Completely new 40 km track for speeds of 250km/h http://www.beg.co.at/implementation/ and http://www.beg.co.at/informationszentrum/trassenverlauf/ (german)


This is a very good example of the problem which "ELF" has to face. A very carefull reading of the German post (by a qualified translator) clearly indicates that the "tracks" are being constructed for possible future operation at 250 km/h. This would be expected as this is a continuation of the Westbahn and all the new construction on the Westbahn between Sankt Polten and Linz is constructed with tracks which will be capable of future operation at 250 km/h. Some of these tracks were completed in the 1990's and, finally, last year operations at 200 km/h began between Sankt Polten and Linz even though some segments have not yet been completed.

Clearly the new Brennero Bahn deserves to shown as a new link but it should be Grey untill high speed operations actually begin. Austria takes a very long view railway construction and they prepare for the future.

Unfortunately, I suspect that new, quadrupled route on the lower Inn valley may never reach 250 km/h because this is a extremley busy route for freight and threading fast passenger trains through all the German-Italian freight may not be economic.


----------



## sotavento

elfabyanos said:


> Again a map you have drawn yourself. Please help me and link to a map with the current route on it.
> 
> Re post 275
> 
> http://www.rave.pt/homepage.asp - a hompage completely in Portuguese. Great, thanks.
> 
> http://www.refer.pt/ - If I click on "welcome" I get a page with
> 
> Exactly what am I looking for here?
> 
> http://www.cp.pt/ - again another hompage in Portuguese - what is your point!!!???
> 
> Oh shut up. The original is about 4000 pixels accross, I scale it down to fit sensibly on the screen.
> 
> And the article about the confirmation of planning - this map is not about planning - thats the reason why the Rhin-Rhone LGV is only showing a dotted line for the 't' of the route, because thats all that is u/c, the stem of the line to Lyon was on there, until it was pointed out to me (and evidence submitted) that tha part was only in the planning stage and should not be on the map


^^There is clearly a lack of understanding of the problem from both parties here.

Let me try to explain things as I see them:

a) YOU asked for information 

b) information has been given to YOU free of charge

c) Its not "my little map" ... its just a section of YOUR published map with some info for your understanding of the right placement of the HSL ... 

d) actualy the dotted lines only were added as future referencing to both Lisboa-Badajoz-Madrid and Lisboa-Porto-Vigo-corunha ... 

e) both the atlantic corridor and the lisboa-madrid will be practicaly 100% new trackage ...

f) how can one get the 4000 pixels if you only provide the small one ...

g) currently there is no map of portuguese network wich discriminates line speeds ... 

h) if such map should be made available in the near future it will come most probably from _yours trully_ ... 

i) bear with it for the time being. :cheers:


So as far as things go "presently" it is like this: (and remember that it is a CUT from YOUR map)









Currently in operation:
Blue = mains upgraded areas (currently operated at 200/220) << not enough space to make it detailed enough ... not even the areas "under construction" can be defined in detail
Grey = slow areas ... or areas made to 250km/h but operated at lower than 200km/h speeds (such as the isolated grey in lisboa-madrid corridor) or Porto-Braga

The dotted lines are the "new" international relations ... (to my knowledge) the only stretches of the future HSL existant south of Vigo: 
a) It seem the small tunel in the south exit of Vigo station is already under construction 
b) Porto-Vigo uses the current Braga-Porto (in wich AP trains run presently but not at high speed( (its a dead end with 2 stops in few mileage but it is ready for pendulars at 200km/h in most of it)
c) the Douro crossing Porto-Gaia wich will use the current Northern Line alignement and São João bridge is part of the Lisboa-Porto HSL (And Gaia station just entered reconstruction works this week)
d) the above mentioned CasaBranca-Evora 220/250 km/h line wich is part of the Lisboa-Vigo "mixed traffic" HSL ... will be put at 220(?) km/h as soon as CTC signaling and electrification reach Evora (work is sheduled to star this summer acording to REFER timetabled workings)

^^ So technicaly theres "some" parts of the 3 lines actualy built ... the 2 red/orange/pink dots near Porto and Vigo are there actualy. << just kidding here

sidenote: as as repeatedly said earlier ... you can't currently find any "reliable" information on the HSL in any language other than portuguese ... and believe me ... I tried to find It ... I guess this topic is the only "updated" webpage about the portuguese network going around. :lol:


----------



## elfabyanos

Here is update 16.

Changes include:

France - adding in of a few classic line blue and grey. Trainman Dave - before I put on many of the other grey lines as you've suggested can you show that trains that run on a coloured line on the map at the speed allowed by those coloured lines, also travels on the grey lines you wish added as part of the same journey? This is my distinction between a map showing high speed rail and just a general map showing trunk lines.

Germany - whole new HSL u/c added yay!!!

Italy - Some status changes. The Lochberg base tunnel is already listed for 250km/h! But Brenner Base tunnel added (I had no idea!! - for those interested I googled and found these brief pdfs with a few nuggets of info http://ec.europa.eu/ten/transport/priority_projects_minisite/PP01EN.pdf and http://www.fig.net/pub/fig_2002/Ts6-7/TS6_7_morocutti_schennach.pdf )
I have reinstated Bologna - Verona as a new build it is totally beside the old trackbed. This is the same issue as sevilla - antequera. It's on the cusp of the definition but I wouldn't expect the line to have as many performance constraints as a line rebuilt entirely on the old track bed. I expect perfect foundations, decent gauge restrictions, slightly less harsh curves, at least uniform for the intended linespeed without occasional restrictions you get on classic lines etc etc. Padua-Venezia I don't know, couldn't see any evidence of new trackbed on google maps.

Portugal - I have made it more geographical but removed all sign of the upgrades until I know for sure what is going on. I have included below an excerpt from the excellent maps from the excellent website http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/maps.php. Sotavento, if you would be so kind would you be able to use this map and draw on it the sections which have been upgraded, or are presently being upgraded.










Anyway, here's the update. Thank you to everyone who has been helping, it's all rather a lot and apologies if I've missed stuff - please just keep reminding me.


----------



## sotavento

Something like this: (Based on the TVM from REFER)








^TVM = Maximum speed tables

One should point out that the dark blue and dark grey lines have ALL new trackbed ... they are basicaly NEW lines built in the same place of the old ones (with some major rectification of curves) .. .or even all new track alignements near the old ones (wich were abandoned).


----------



## foxmulder

very informative, thanks


----------



## elfabyanos

Thank you Sotavento. Can you post the TVM for reference as well, as this will lie the debate to bed. I will then be happy to put the exact details you have drawn on to the map. The only thing I couldn't include at the moment are the planned sections, however as was mentioned in the first few pages of the thread, my intention is to have a separate map with planned routes on it eventually, but not for now.


----------



## Joop20

Joop20 said:


> Found more lines that should be added to the map:
> 
> - Gardermobanen in Norway. According to the article on wikipedia, trains run up to 210km/h on this 60km track from Oslo's airport to Oslo. Apperantly, this line will be extended to Drammen in 2008, but this new section will not be high-speed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Norway
> 
> - Croatia is working on a rail line that connects Zagreb and Rijeka. _'To begin with, the existing line from Botovo via Zagreb to Karlovac will be brought up to date, and a completely new railway line will be constructed from Karlovac to Rijeka. In the future passenger trains will be able to travel at speeds of up to 200 km/h on the new line.' _ http://www.wieninternational.at/en/node/3426


A reminder for your next update. I think there's no doubt the Norwegian line should be included on the map. Does anyone have more information on that Croatian line?


----------



## Euklidisk

Here comes some help on Sweden again!
All colors is as elfabyanos system. Grey lines is the daily X2000 network < 200 km/h.

Railways with significant parts of >= 200 km/h:

A, The West coast line (Västkustbanan)
B, The South main line (Södra stambanan)
C, The West main line (Västra stambanan)
D, The East coast line (Ostkustbanan)
E, The Lake Mälaren line (Mälarbanan)
F, The Svealand line (Svealandsbanan)

Railways Under construction (sorry, havnt found in English for all projects, but you can look att the images and maps):

1, New double track (2012), The Norway/Lake Vänern line (Norge/Vänern-banan)
English link: http://www.vv.se/bv_templates/Page____22094.aspx

2, New double track (2008), The West coast line (Västkustbanan)
Images: http://www.banverket.se/sv/Amnen/Ak...68/Falkenberg-Torebo-Heberg/Om-projektet.aspx

3, New double track (2012), The West coast line (Västkustbanan)
English link: http://www.banverket.se/pages/4439/The Hallandsas project_2005.pdf

4, New single track (2010), The Bothnia line (Botniabanan)
English link: http://www.botniabanan.se/default.aspx?id=2136

5, New single track (2011), The Ådal line (Ådalsbanan)
Map: http://www.banverket.se//pages/5761/Karta_Ådalsbanan.pdf

6, New single track (2012), The Haparnada line (Haparandabanan)
Map: http://www.banverket.se/pages/6883/Haparanda.jpg


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## elfabyanos

Thats great guys, thanks - it really is about time to do scandanavia. Does anone have any good details of other country's high speed trains that go into Denmark?


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## Euklidisk

elfabyanos said:


> Thats great guys, thanks - it really is about time to do scandanavia. Does anone have any good details of other country's high speed trains that go into Denmark?


Swedish X2000 goes Stockholm-Copenhagen.


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## elfabyanos

On what route? Edit actually thats pretty obvious.


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## virgule82

Might as well do Norway then, it'll be short and pitiful, although there are big plans for the future









This is a map of all railroad lines in Southern Norway, so you don't want to include all of them on your map since very little of it is high speed. Oslo to Eidsvoll is 210 km/h new build (Gardermobanen, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardermobanen). There should be a gray line extending west to Drammen since the express train goes there now.

Vestfoldbanen southwest of Oslo is being rebuilt with essentially a new line for 200 km/h : (Red is completed construction, white is being built in 2008-15)










That's a map from the Norwegan rail authority. There are plenty of lines that will be rebuilt very shortly but generally they have been focusing on capacity instead of speed. Hopefully, there will be a lot more color on the norwegian map a few years from now


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## Yardmaster

^^ Very impressive; in fact unsurpassed. 

Since I tend to defend the upgrades made here in little old SE Australia (while many here deride our progress) I have a certain interest in this. We certainly don't have any 300 km/hr + lines, and although trains running here at 160 km/hr aren't a novelty, having more of them running "so fast" is a bonus.

There certainly aren't any "new lines" cut through this part of the world, but then, with 21 milion people in an area the size of Europe, we're lucky we've got rail at all (apart from where we rail all that coal & ore out, most efficient rail services on earth).

A few questions I'd like to ask .... getting back to the last Western Europe map .... firstly, are the dotted lines projected or under construction?

Secondly, the purple/magenta high-speed (dotted) "classic" lines are mainly in Spain (the trains in Spain stay mainly on the gain?) ... this refers back to the previous question. I'm kinda surprised at this development in NW Spain: which I never thought was overly-populated.

This isn't a European Forum: it's a world one: so perhaps someone can speak for Spain ...


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## rheintram

In Austria Unterinntaltrasse (posted the links to the maps before) is still missing, while you added Brenner-Basis-Tunnel. If you have problem locating it. It continues from the brenner basistunnel (which is at the Austrian-Italian border) about 45 km to the east.


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## gincan

Yardmaster said:


> ^^ Very impressive; in fact unsurpassed.
> 
> Since I tend to defend the upgrades made here in little old SE Australia (while many here deride our progress) I have a certain interest in this. We certainly don't have any 300 km/hr + lines, and although trains running here at 160 km/hr aren't a novelty, having more of them running "so fast" is a bonus.
> 
> There certainly aren't any "new lines" cut through this part of the world, but then, with 21 milion people in an area the size of Europe, we're lucky we've got rail at all (apart from where we rail all that coal & ore out, most efficient rail services on earth).
> 
> A few questions I'd like to ask .... getting back to the last Western Europe map .... firstly, are the dotted lines projected or under construction?
> 
> Secondly, the purple/magenta high-speed (dotted) "classic" lines are mainly in Spain (the trains in Spain stay mainly on the gain?) ... this refers back to the previous question. I'm kinda surprised at this development in NW Spain: which I never thought was overly-populated.
> 
> This isn't a European Forum: it's a world one: so perhaps someone can speak for Spain ...



NW Spain is actually quite populated, not throughout but the towns are pretty large and very dense, A Coruña has 250 thousand i the city and 400 thousand in the metropolitan area, Vigo has some 300 thousand in the city and 400 thousand in the metro, Ferrol has some 200 thousand in the metro, Ourense and Santiago both about 100 thousand in the city.

The thing about all the purple lines in Spain is that apart from all the new 300km/h lines they also have an upgrade program for the lesser lines, actually more than half of the 10.000km of HSR projected are upgraded classic lines, funding for these upgrades are heavily contributed by the regional government.


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## elfabyanos

Yardmaster said:


> Very impressive; in fact unsurpassed.
> 
> A few questions I'd like to ask .... getting back to the last Western Europe map .... firstly, are the dotted lines projected or under construction?


Thank you very much, it's definitely been very much a joint effort from all the forumers at SSC! 

The dotted lines are under construction. Everything on there will definitely be in service in the future.


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## elfabyanos

Help required.

I have been trying to do some research and finding it hard, mainly because I only speak English and a bit of French!!!

If anyone has any advice regarding the following I will be most grateful:

Spain - Detail on the routes running over classic lines that have part of their journey on an HSL and at least 200km/h. There as as yet very few grey lines on the map for Spain.

Italy - likewise. I know there are services to Geneva and Rimini and the foot but I haven't found it aesy to ascertain what type of ttrains run these services (apart from the ETR 480 Cisalpino routes).

Switzerland - I will be adding the Cisalpino services, however there are other native 200km/h tilting trains in Switzerland and I believe there are sections of upgraded line to at least 200km/h, yet apart from the base tunnels and the new line from Rohtrist (of which I have just discovered there is a spur towards Solothurn) all the lines are grey.

France - I've asked Trainman Dave for help clarifying the types of trains using classic lines, but I'm also looking for any detail about the vast Central Massif region that is completely bare at the moment.

Austria - Any info about this country would be helpful - I haven't really researched Austria but I have a suspicion most data on the internet will be in German!

Czech Republic - They have nice new 220km/h Pendolino trains, but is any of the line up to scratch yet? Is it being upgraded? Do any ICE services from Germany go there?

Scandanavia is looking good at the moment - I've done Euklidisk's Sweden, and a bit of Norway. I would appreciate some advice on where the Flytojets go in regular service. Are there any cross-border services between Norway, Sweden and Finland? I've added ICE and Swedish X2000 services to Copenhagen, and I have loads of info on Finnish railways (possibly the most technical minded of all European countries' railway operator's websites!) 

The next version of the map will be expanded to include more of Europe again and I will post this within the next few days.


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## virgule82

elfabyanos said:


> Help required.
> 
> 
> Scandanavia is looking good at the moment - I've done Euklidisk's Sweden, and a bit of Norway. I would appreciate some advice on where the Flytojets go in regular service. Are there any cross-border services between Norway, Sweden and Finland? I've added ICE and Swedish X2000 services to Copenhagen, and I have loads of info on Finnish railways (possibly the most technical minded of all European countries' railway operator's websites!)
> 
> .


Speaking for Norway, Flytoget goes from Gardermoen airport to Asker, which is a bit west of Oslo. I just doublechecked and service to Drammen is delayed until next year, so you may not want to include it. There is an Oslo-Stockholm service, although it's not high speed, at least in Norway. There are also trains Oslo-Gothenburg-Copenhagen, and they probably do go pretty fast in parts of Sweden at least. Update: I checked and Oslo-Gothenburg should definitely be a grey line.


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## Gamma-Hamster




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## elfabyanos

Thank you very much for the updates. Gamma-Hampster - I'm looking forward to expanding my map east!!!


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## elfabyanos

Update, corrections to Spain as per Gincan's suggestions.

However I noticed another screw up. I had an upgrade line from near La Encina to the south west, yet there is actually no line to upgrade. I assume I've confused upgrades Alicant and Lorca - Any ideas? Also, I don't think I should have the Vallalodid - Leon section u/c yet?


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## gincan

elfabyanos said:


> Update, corrections to Spain as per Gincan's suggestions.


Precisely as I tried to describe it.



elfabyanos said:


> However I noticed another screw up. I had an upgrade line from near La Encina to the south west, yet there is actually no line to upgrade. I assume I've confused upgrades Alicant and Lorca - Any ideas? Also, I don't think I should have the Vallalodid - Leon section u/c yet?



Yes the line is the Alicante-Lorca although only Murcia-Lorca is UC with a short section south of Murcia already finnished.

The Valladolid-Leon is not yet UC, some works around Leon has commenced as has works on a short section midway between Leon and Palencia. What is UC is a 50km section crossing the Cantabrian Mountains with the Pajares Tunnel (25km long 70% excavated).


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## Leon S

I got a little question for u, mr

since you are a brightonian, I'm sure you'll be able to answer...

what HSL train goes to Brighton ? The only services that I've ever seen coming from Brighton to London (and further to the North via the Thameslink) are the Southern services (mostly to Victoria) and the First Great Western trains to Bedford. Am I forgetting something ?

May I also suggest a little change for Northern Spain: the classic line going from Madrid to Bilbao goes via a little town called Miranda-de-Ebro, which is further to the West of Vitoria. The new line (that you represent by orange dots) will be joining Vitoria and Bilbao, and therefore it should lie on the right-hand-side of the classic line, and not on the left of it

Furthermore, the new LGV Sud Europe Atlantique from Angoulême to Bordeaux is just about to be started. A new larger bridge over the Garonne river is actually almost finished, which will allow four tracks (instead of the current two) to be used to cross the river. Since this bridge is actually part of the whole LGV Sud project, it could technically be said that the line is already being built... although I leave this for your consideration.

You should think about eventually posting your map on wikipedia. I've never found anything of the kind on it. It'd be a huge contribution !!


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## sotavento

elfabyanos said:


> Update, corrections to Spain as per Gincan's suggestions.
> 
> However I noticed another screw up. I had an upgrade line from near La Encina to the south west, yet there is actually no line to upgrade. I assume I've confused upgrades Alicant and Lorca - Any ideas? Also, I don't think I should have the Vallalodid - Leon section u/c yet?


I've been meddling/playing a little bit with your classification:










I still find it hard to guess the speeds of half the lines and I wouldn't put most of the ones that I know in the categories you put them. hno:

The directissima for example is in the highest range of the yellow lines (same operating seiling as blue lines)... 

The "upgraded" pallete could even be expanded a step further since most old lines have steps of around 20km/h diference:

< 100 km/h = black ???? 
- old routes with rought terrain or just urban crossings or obstacles
- these should be put in a thin BLACK line or if it is a small obstacle 
(a tunnel/bridge or something like that you should point it out in the map as a speed limited obstacle in that particular route)

Then we get the line speeds:
< 140/160 km/h (old routes) = light grey ???
- usualy these are the classic lines everywhere ... just put where a HST has sheduled runs to a particular place ...
- preferably leave out the routes where people say that _"oh its got 1 train that runs over a crossing 500 miles down south"_. 

160/200 km/h = dark grey ???
- fast classic IC trains
- most countries "today" run their IC/HST networks in this speed range (due to limiting factors like route capacity , signaling , electrick pickup/current limitations , etc) 
- this would put danish (180km/h ?) , chzeck , polish , british 3rd rail and some other networks (160km/h? with HST's) in the map (and get a lot of light grey routes eleminated elsewhere).
^^ I willingly would give away half the portuguese blue lines If I had to just to get propper smaller speeds scales. :cheers:

200/220/240/250(?) km/h upgraded routes = various blue tones ??? 
- same as for smaller speed ... too many different speed limits to count
- 160<->200 km/h could as easily be a dark/light blue tone here
- maiby 200<>225 km/h and 230<>250 km/h in two tones ? 
- get rid of the violet for >250 km/h upgraded routes ... it's nowhere to be seen an "upgraded" route in such speed limits ... consider it as a "new" route buit on top of the old one and simplifu things ... and get a closed color for 230<>250 routes ... dark blue ?

200/220<->250 km/h "new" routes = not TRUE HSL by current standards ... someting different ??? could as easily go in the "upgraded" routes cathegory ... or leave them in the isolated yellow that they have today. 

250<->360(?) km/h = orange<>red gradients ???
- "true" HSL ... 
- make a breaking point every 30/40 km ... usual speeds are 260, 280 , 300 , 320/330 , 350/360 ... etc 



And then we get the projected/under construction routes categories: 

Something else could be done here: (probably the best would be to have a 2nd layer on the map just for these routes)

Tentactive example ... small 1 pixel wide lines:

Purposed = small dotted line ?

In the studies phase = 1 dot line ??? <<< lines with construction aproved but not u/c works yet ? these could get in this stage for decades 

U/C = large dotted line ???
- I would go for a 1 dot line delineating the future route ... 
- or even a 1 pixel large dotted line (the same side profile as the built routes) to allow us to put them on top of current lines without much fuss about if they are new/upgraded


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## elfabyanos

Leon S said:


> since you are a brightonian, I'm sure you'll be able to answer...
> 
> what HSL train goes to Brighton ?


Two trains per day to Birmingham/Manchester on Voyagers. Not much, and it's ending december this year 

Point re the Basque y duely noted, I will review notes on the next version.

Exciting about the TGV expansion - I'll have a look into that.

@ Sotavento - I'm not going to change the criteria now, it's been hard enough work as it is. The dirrettissima is 250km/h, and all the other linespeeds are correct according to the information, excepting mistakes. Classic lines under 200km/h are not going on there because they are not high speed lines - however to show the extent of the benefit of high speed lines the grey lines are included. This is not a map of the european rail network - that has been done, this map is specific and narrow in it's remit. It's all about k.i.s.s.


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## Coccodrillo

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=19385191&postcount=357


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## CharlieP

elfabyanos, just a quick nit-pick - did you really mean to type "Classic lines served by HSL lines" in the key? "HSL lines" is a redundancy (like PIN number ), but I think you meant "served by high-speed trains" anyway...?


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## ddes

Heys...

Am i missing something or is Madrid and Barcelona missing direct links to Paris? London, Brussels, Paris are linked but Spain is left out?


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## Coccodrillo

(Paris-)-Tours-Bordeaux is at planning stage but its construction is likely.

Bordeaix-Spanish border is only planned, from there to amdrid is under construction, in operation or in planning.


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## JoKo65

elfabyanos said:


> If no trains actually use these tracks at the potential speed I'll have to downgrade them, leaving them maybe dashed between the two speeds, to show that that capability is u/c in terms of the trains to provide it.
> 
> 
> JoKo65 - I haven't got Finland yet!!! I've got quite a lot of info already, if you have any more I'll most grateful!!!



Look at this table, it's german but I think you can understand it without speaking German:


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnellfahrstrecke#Finnland


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## elfabyanos

CharlieP said:


> elfabyanos, just a quick nit-pick - did you really mean to type "Classic lines served by HSL lines" in the key? "HSL lines" is a redundancy (like PIN number ), but I think you meant "served by high-speed trains" anyway...?


Oops I missed that. I mean to say routes serve3 by high speed trains that operate over a high speed line at high speed for a part of their journey. However that's simplest I'm not sure.


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## Ali_B

@elfabyanos: another interesting thing to ad on your magnificant map are High Speed Trains Stations, for example by a black dot, or by something diffenrent, if there are to much trainstations, you can limit them by only adding those with more than then stops of High Speed Trains a day ...


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## cees

nice to see this network growing, like a macrometronetwork , 
unfortunetly the dutch network is not going to be a 300-350 km/h section as far as i know. it's going to be 250 maximum. by the end of this year they will have the train's according schedule for testing. the grey section towards germany is going to be a 200 km/h section.


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## elfabyanos

^^ I think that depends on the signalling they get sorted. The Thalys trains will be able to do 300km/h, if the AnsaldoBreda trains can't - and I thought the alignment was built to 300km/h spec?

edit - from http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/zuid/



> INFRASTRUCTURE
> Although European rules state that new high-speed rail lines are to be designed for speeds of at least 250km/h (155mph), the Dutch line, however, is being constructed for 300km/h (186mph) running. Unlike the rest of NS electrified routes at 1,500V d.c., HSL Zuid and its Belgian counterpart features a 25kV ac supply.


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## cees

ok i understand. could be right that the tracks are designed for 300 km/h. but the trains won't. so this map is just the ability of the tracks, not about the trains that will run on it. i'm actually quit sure the trains will just go 250 because we will have the ansoldobreda trains. it's all about savety and noise issues. 
are the Ansaldobreda trains less noisy in comparison to the thalys trains? i actually never seen stat's about that. i think dutch government ad a lot of value on noise issues bacause of our density, and overregulated noise law's in here. do you know anything about that?


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## elfabyanos

Yeah, it was incorporated into the design of the tracks - there's lots of panels at wheel height or something to reduce wheel noise. The map should only show capability of track and train - a fast track and slow train still equals a slow service. We'll have to see how it all pans out once the line opens. I suspect the thalys will go at full speed.


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## Anspen

The line has been built for 300 km/h and will be used at that speed (when they finally sort out the singaling mess). The confusion probably comes from the AnsaldoBreda trains. However those will be deployed for domestic use, not international travel


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## Blue Viking

A small suggestion for the Denmark map: You can erase the gray east-west line in Denmark and add a gray line from Copenhagen to the ferry in Rødby. The train rides on the ferry to Puttgarten and continues on to Hamburg.

I wonder how many high speed trains ride ferries? 

This time table documents it: http://www.dsb.dk/cs/BlobServer?blo...1148305459889&ssbinary=true&filename=file.pdf


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## Koen Acacia

Blue Viking said:


> A small suggestion for the Denmark map: You can erase the gray east-west line in Denmark and add a gray line from Copenhagen to the ferry in Rødby. The train rides on the ferry to Puttgarten and continues on to Hamburg.
> 
> I wonder how many high speed trains ride ferries?
> 
> This time table documents it: http://www.dsb.dk/cs/BlobServer?blo...1148305459889&ssbinary=true&filename=file.pdf


We probably need a new color system for the different speeds of the ferries that the high speed trains ride on.


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## sotavento

Koen Acacia said:


> We probably need a new color system for the different speeds of the ferries that the high speed trains ride on.


:lol:


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## Joop20

What happened, elf?


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## Blue Viking

Still working on the ferry colour code


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## elfabyanos

Sorry, got distracted - where was I? I was thinking, shall I put some words on it? Like names of cities and stuff?


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## Blue Viking

I can do without. But I think it would be great if the high speed lines were a bit wider in the map than the non-HSR lines. Just a suggestion 

The map looks really good by the way!! :cheers:


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## elfabyanos

^^ thats easy enough and I like that idea.


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## elfabyanos

Slightly thicker lines, is this better?


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## staff

But the line should run from Copenhagen to Rödbyhavn, no?


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## Blue Viking

^^ It's a minor detail since it's not HSR, but still it would be nice to get sorted. No matter what, Denmark looks really pathetic on that map. A monument of shame for the politicians around here.. 

But the map really does looks great now, Elfabyanos!! Thank you once again for doing this work. Too bad the thread has gone a bit dead, but I am sure a lot of people out there appreciate your work.


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## ChrisH

I agree, the map looks fantastic. Great work elf  Presumably all of the lines in that area are now on the map? In which case the logical next step is to draw together the sources for each line and get it published


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## ced_flanders

It seems so strange that there is no high speed track between Brussels and Antwerp. It's the only piece missing in the puzzle for Belgian HSR and ironically it's the busiest connection (between the two biggest cities) maybe the distances are just too small?

I think distances will be a problem for the whole Amsterdam-Brussels line, sure the trains can go 300km/h and the tracks allow for it, but it never will because it has to stop all the time... Amsterdam, Schiphol, Rotterdam, Antwerp, Brussels... that's 5 stations in 200 km. And that's in a best case scenario, some trains stop even more.
In comparison, Brussels and Paris are 300 km away, yet the Thalys doesn't stop anywhere.


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## elfabyanos

^^ The Dutch local high speed trains are only capable of 250km/h, as you say 300km/h is not necessary for such small distances. However the Thalys trains will be able to take advantage of teh full line speed. Also, Brussels to Antwerp is not far and the classic line the trains already use is relatively straight - I'm sure they can do at least 160km/h. It would be nice to have the hole filled which I'm sure they will do.


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## Anspen

It is a lot of stops indeed, and that's not ideal. On the other hand: both Belgium and the Netherlands don't have one big city so it's more or less a necessity.

And the track between Schiphol and Rotterdam and Rotterdam-Antwerp is long enough to get to 300 km/h for a useful amount of time.

About the Antwerp/Brussel track: well yes it is fairly short, however I don't think it's rated even for 160 km/h plus it's a very busy part of the Belgian network. A dedicated track (which wouldn't even have to be 300 km/h, probably not necessary) would be quite useful, especially since it would mean the whole Amsterdam-Paris line would be one voltage.


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## Irish Blood English Heart

Great work, there should also be a grey line between Edinburgh and Inverness via Perth and Stirling as there is 1 HST service a day on this classic line.


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## priamos

ced_flanders said:


> It seems so strange that there is no high speed track between Brussels and Antwerp. It's the only piece missing in the puzzle for Belgian HSR and ironically it's the busiest connection (between the two biggest cities) maybe the distances are just too small?


The Belgian government has promised to upgrade the line to 160 km/h as far as I know. That said, it's not always clear what "upgrade to xx km/h" means. Some of the lines on this map (the excellent map - please don't get me wrong) that are marked down as 200 km/h or 250 km/h can only be served at these velocities on very short selected segments. (This is, for example, the case in the UK and parts of Germany.) Last week I took the train from Rotterdam to Paris and let me tell you this: the part between Brussels and Antwerp is really a problem. Maybe the line is suitable for 160 km/h already (?), but there are such bottlenecks on the commuter sections around Mechelen and northern Brussels (Vilvoorde and thereabout) that this "international high-speed train" almost came to a halt. (After Brussels they then left it for the French to recouperate the 15 minutes that les Belgues had squandered.) 

When I look at a map of the newly built lines in Belgium I do get the impression of a master plan, though. Fast track from Louvain to Lille and, some day, on to Germany. Fast track from Antwerp to Rotterdam. And... you have excellent freeways from Brussels to Louvain and to Antwerp (in a country that mostly puts new railway lines next to the freeways), both of them passing Brussels International Airport to the northeast of the city. Allow me to guess that the long-term plan of the Belgian authorities is to make a tunnel or whatever to the airport and from there branch out with two new highspeed lines toward the east and the north.


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## elfabyanos

priamos said:


> Some of the lines on this map (the excellent map - please don't get me wrong) that are marked down as 200 km/h or 250 km/h can only be served at these velocities on very short selected segments.


Thats part of the reason they're a different colour, however on the UK map there are only a few sections coloured where 125mph isn't possible, the majority of the routes are as coloured, apart from maybe the WCML but it's being upgraded and will look like that by the end of this year.


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## priamos

elfabyanos said:


> Thats part of the reason they're a different colour, however on the UK map there are only a few sections coloured where 125mph isn't possible, the majority of the routes are as coloured, apart from maybe the WCML but it's being upgraded and will look like that by the end of this year.


Aha, thanks. What are they doing about level crossings, d'ya know? I'm asking because this is one of the things that often lead to slowdowns on lines that are technically capable of highish speeds. Recently I was in Frankfurt a.M., travelling on the blue route between Frankfurt and Mannheim, and the ICE3 train I was in did reach high speeds occasionally (they have an excellent acceleration as you probably know) but repeatedly had to slow down for crossings and small towns. In the end the effective speed on this line was little more than 100 km/h.


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## elfabyanos

Unfortunately not much although replacement is a long term aspiration on all the lines - quite understandibly the railway operators are uncomfortable with the practice of blocking the line on purpose with large metal objects on wheels! 

The maximum speed of level crossings in the UK is 225km/h on the east coast mainline (though no trains go faster than 200km/h at the moment) and I've posted a vid of some on the Britain rail pics and news thread. Level crossings do not cause slow downs normally, I would have thought it would be restrictive curves causing that slow down you noticed in Germany, or that the level crossing wasn't automated necessitating a more cautious approach?

For example, on the Great Western in the UK the only speed restriction between London and Swindon is Reading station, where there is currently a 130km/h limit (likely to be removed as the station will be rebuilt soon) but most trains stop there anyway. there really are only occasional checks, usually at stations.


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## priamos

elfabyanos said:


> The maximum speed of level crossings in the UK is 225km/h on the east coast mainline (though no trains go faster than 200km/h at the moment) and I've posted a vid of some on the Britain rail pics and news thread.


Hum... yes, but the distance between London and Edinburgh is 530 km (as the crow flies - it's of course a bit more following the tracks) and the fastest train connecting these two cities along the east coast mainline needs 4h20. Wouldn't that indicate that the train does not, by far, travel at 200 km/h on all the route? I realise that part of the problem is the train wastes some 25-30 minutes on 5 (five, goddammit!) intermediate stops, but still.... 



elfabyanos said:


> Level crossings do not cause slow downs normally, I would have thought it would be restrictive curves causing that slow down you noticed in Germany, or that the level crossing wasn't automated necessitating a more cautious approach?


I correct myself: I now realise that the track my train followed was the one on the western bank of the river and that is most definitely not the one that is supposed to be upgraded for 200 km/h. Answering your question, I think it has more to do with non-automated crossings - and perhaps saturated tracks - than with curves. The line in this part of Germany is straight like an arrow. 

It's one of the points where I suppose Germany looks more like the UK than my native (tiny) Denmark and my adoptive (largeish) France. In both of the latter countries the density of population is around 115 persons per sq.km. and heavily concentrated in a handful of cities. As soon as you're outside the main agglomerations you can roll - even on old, crummy tracks - a pretty constant 160 km/h. In the much more densely populated areas of central Germany and (??) southern England I guess there's an constant problem with congestion and crossing urban zones.


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## Ali_B

priamos said:


> The Belgian government has promised to upgrade the line to 160 km/h as far as I know. That said, it's not always clear what "upgrade to xx km/h" means. Some of the lines on this map (the excellent map - please don't get me wrong) that are marked down as 200 km/h or 250 km/h can only be served at these velocities on very short selected segments. (This is, for example, the case in the UK and parts of Germany.) Last week I took the train from Rotterdam to Paris and let me tell you this: the part between Brussels and Antwerp is really a problem. Maybe the line is suitable for 160 km/h already (?), but there are such bottlenecks on the commuter sections around Mechelen and northern Brussels (Vilvoorde and thereabout) that this "international high-speed train" almost came to a halt. (After Brussels they then left it for the French to recouperate the 15 minutes that les Belgues had squandered.)
> 
> When I look at a map of the newly built lines in Belgium I do get the impression of a master plan, though. Fast track from Louvain to Lille and, some day, on to Germany. Fast track from Antwerp to Rotterdam. And... you have excellent freeways from Brussels to Louvain and to Antwerp (in a country that mostly puts new railway lines next to the freeways), both of them passing Brussels International Airport to the northeast of the city. Allow me to guess that the long-term plan of the Belgian authorities is to make a tunnel or whatever to the airport and from there branch out with two new highspeed lines toward the east and the north.


works already started. They're constructing an entirely new railway section between Diegem (north of Brussels) and Zemst (south of Mechelen) in the middle of the A1-E19 Brussels - Antwerp highway. In the middle is a wide green section reserved for possible extention, but will be now used for the construction of this railway, allowing high speed trains using this track leaving the other for dense commuter traffic up to Brussels. Part of this project is the extention of the railway from the airport to this new track so trains to the Netherlands and Germany departing from Brussels can pass by the Brussels Airport in Zaventem. the openingh of this section is planned for 2012. This track will be more or less 14km long.The maximum speed for this section is unclear ...


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## elfabyanos

priamos said:


> Hum... yes, but the distance between London and Edinburgh is 530 km (as the crow flies - it's of course a bit more following the tracks) and the fastest train connecting these two cities along the east coast mainline needs 4h20. Wouldn't that indicate that the train does not, by far, travel at 200 km/h on all the route? I realise that part of the problem is the train wastes some 25-30 minutes on 5 (five, goddammit!) intermediate stops, but still....


Yes, it's the part of the route to the north of Darlington that causes the delay - I may have taken a bit of artistic license with the amount of blue north of Newcastle. South of Darlington it's pretty much all 125mph/200km/h apart from a couple of 100mph checks at stations such as Peterborough. The average speed London-York is about 100-105mph, with all the stops. The record London-Edinburgh on this route is 3 hours 29 minutes, though a lot of that was at 140mph/225km/h and it used a short formation train.


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## priamos

Ali_B said:


> works already started. They're constructing an entirely new railway section between Diegem (north of Brussels) and Zemst (south of Mechelen) in the middle of the A1-E19 Brussels - Antwerp highway. In the middle is a wide green section reserved for possible extention, but will be now used for the construction of this railway, allowing high speed trains using this track leaving the other for dense commuter traffic up to Brussels.


Very interesting, thanks! (I pat myself on the shoulder: it appears I HAD read the Belgian planners' intentions correctly...;-)) It also explains another thing that had been bothering me: the Belgian authorities have hummed and ha'ed over whether or not to make a new tunnel between the northern and southern railway stations in Brussels. Considering that the existing tunnel is saturated (and old and creaky...) I didn't see that there could be much debate over this point. However, if they open a new railway corridor out of town in a northeastern direction then they'll be asking themselves if the "grandes lignes" via Gare du Midi shouldn't eventually shun Gare du Nord completely.


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## JoKo65

> Finland
> 
> In Finland VR operates tilting Pendolino trains made by Alstom, reaching 220 km/h in regular operation between Helsinki and Lahti on a route spanning some 50 kilometers. This railway was opened in 2006. The trains stay at 200 km/h on a longer route between Helsinki and Tampere. Other parts of the Finnish railway network are limited to lower speed. The Pendolino network touches on several major cities. A service is currently under construction from Helsinki to St. Petersburg, Russia utilizing Pendolinos, due to open in 2008.
> 
> Finland uses its 1524 mm gauge, not standard gauge since they want to use the same trains for both high-speed railways and old enhanced railways. The only trans-border railway to Sweden at Tornio is not planned for border crossing passenger trains.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Europe#Finland


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## gincan

Some news on the HSR line under construction towards northwest spain, the PDF is only available in spanish but
it contains some construction pics.

It also has some info on the Galician rail upgrade project.

http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/7B720184-6C38-4288-A988-AD826168D2B8/35814/My04_13.pdf


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## Ali_B

priamos said:


> Very interesting, thanks! (I pat myself on the shoulder: it appears I HAD read the Belgian planners' intentions correctly...;-)) It also explains another thing that had been bothering me: the Belgian authorities have hummed and ha'ed over whether or not to make a new tunnel between the northern and southern railway stations in Brussels. Considering that the existing tunnel is saturated (and old and creaky...) I didn't see that there could be much debate over this point. However, if they open a new railway corridor out of town in a northeastern direction then they'll be asking themselves if the "grandes lignes" via Gare du Midi shouldn't eventually shun Gare du Nord completely.


That's the Josaphat tunnel between Schuman and Meiser, so that the European quarter can be connected with the airport. This tunnel will connect the line outgoing to Antwerp, Liège and airport with line going to Namur as the great orbital which shall be used heavily be the introduction of a partly french rer commuternetwork within a year of fiver


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## sotavento

Today (Monday 2 of June) was oficially launched the international bid for the construction of the Poceirão-Caia section of the Lisboa-Madrid HSL. :cheers:

English version (in .pdf) avaialble here: 
http://www.rave.pt/Portals/0/Documentos/Concursos/AnuncioDiscoRigidoPPP1_draft5__Ing.pdf

Spanish version available herE:
http://www.rave.pt/Portals/0/Documentos/Concursos/AnuncioDiscoRigidoPPP1_draft5__Espanhol.pdf

^^ Nonetheless ... nevermind the little detail that the 2 HSL tracks are merely a part of a corridor that is almost completely built today ... and has been in construction for the past 7 or 8 years without fail ... let's call it (the HSL) an "isolated act" instead of a part of a bigger route.

^^ Of the 200km of the 3(or 4) track connection Lisboa-Badajoz more than 140km of the "slow" tracks are already built/upgraded with 40km electrified (15km more undergoing electrification) , 20km are at 200km/h (with other 30km upgraded to the same standards but still awaiting electr. and signaling) 
^^ To connect the two tips with High Speed trains the only stretch needed is the Evora-Caia section.

Changing the subject:

Recently some new developments of the Northern Line were anounced:

Santarem-Entroncamento is to be upgraded to 200/220km/h in acordance with the rest of the previous works on the route ... the Environmental impact avaliation has just comenced this past 15 of May and will last until the end of this month(june) ... all things proceeding acording to sheddule ... or so it seems.

^^ this will bring almost all the entire Lisboa-Soure(almost 200km) & Mealhada-Espinho route up to HSL standards (more than half the total route at speeds well above 180km/h except for a couple of restraining points at VFXira and Caxarias) 

^ Soure-coimbra-Mealhada (15/20km each way inside Metropolitan area of Coimbra ... so "urban" tracks) and Espinho-Porto (15km inside the Metropolitan area of Porto ... also "urban" tracks) will be only upgraded at the same time of the construction of the new HSL Lisboa-Porto as was previously anounced. hno:

^^ We can say that practicaly the entire corridor will be a "pure" upgraded HSL before the end of the decade. 

Down south the Alcaçer variant (in the south line) construction is proceeding well ... and work has begun in the upgrade and electrification of the Barreiro-Pinhal Novo route ... wich are a part of the _conventional_ (albeit at speeds of somewhere between 140/250km/h) from the cross tagus crossing to the spanish border (the other part is the new HSL corridor of course ... making it a 4 track route from Lisboa to Badajoz)


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## sotavento

elfabyanos said:


> Sorry, got distracted - where was I? I was thinking, shall I put some words on it? Like names of cities and stuff?





elfabyanos said:


> Slightly thicker lines, is this better?


^^ Still the lines served by lines ??? :lol::cheers:

About the large cities ... I would propose a very different (and radical) aproach ... 

Black dots reserved to large cities served by HSL (wich may or may not indicate that theres not HSL tracks over there ?) 
Black circles (inside left blank? or just a black stripe over the route color) for areas where a particular route has a small SLOW area (an old tunnel or a city crossing where a variant was not built ??? <<< instead of putting a dashed 

And I strongly sugest the use of a differentiated color for "in project" routes (instead of the dotted/dashed) ... 

Changing subjects again:

FYIO:










A) Trofa tunnel (from pk20 to pk24 ... it's a part of the Porto-Braga-Vigo project) ... under construction (at least it should be underconstruction ... not confirmed yet) ... (but still it's only 140km/h tracks due to being inside Porto urban area ... 
^^ (and it is expected that most of the Porto-Braga route will eventualy be slower than expected ... forgive the redundancy)

B) Contumil (pk2,5 to pk8,5) the line will be quadrupled (currently it's 2 tracks only) (also part of the upgrade Porto-vigo works) ... work hasn't started yet

C) Espinho tunel (actualy it's an underground station) .. work already complete.
It marks the end of the high speed zone ... from here to the north its all 120/140km/h(north are only 15km actualy ... they arepainstakingly removing the remaining level crossings in the area). 

D) this area (Ovar-Espinho) is actualy 140/160km/h of unrenovated tracks ... it's the old SPEED RECORD area ... more level crossings are being removed here (3 or 4) 

E) Santarem-entroncamento ... new track layout/alignement (for 220/250 km/h) under EIA ... current tracks are being repaired , signaling upgraded and level crossings removed ... can be an "upgraded" or a completely new route depending on the results of the EIA.

F) Santarem variant ... new alignement on the oposite side of town ... major station so it will be 160/220 km/h only ... still under EIA (?)

G) more level crossing supressions ... to remove extreme speed limitations (as low as 60km/h thru VFXira station) ... another area (4/5km long) wich will be limited to 140/160 km/h 

H) Lisboa-Madrid HSL ... Poceirão (limit of Lisboa Metro Area) to Caia (portugal/spain border) section put to tenders (see .pdf above)
Poceirão-Evora will be 2 tracks of HSL and the upgraded conventional line ... Evora-Caia will be 3 tracks (2x HSL + 1 cionventional with dual gauge sleepers for future gauge conversion from Iberica to UIC)
^^ Special notice ... in the portuguese section the route will be made to 350km/h running (As stated in the anouncement in portuguese language). :cheers:

I) Section of the conventional route already upgraded to 250 km/h with dual gauge sleepers ... section sheduled to be electrified late this year. 

J) new alcaçer variant (25km long) under construction ... acording to plans the old route will remain exclusively to serve regional and intercity trains ... 

K) current track upgrades and electrifications in the lisbon area (futurte connection to the new tagus bridge) 


Notice: after the Lisboa-Caia route it is sheduled to built the Lisboa-Porto OR the Porto(actualy Braga)-Vigo route ... they both are dependent on the political (read €€€€) flow of things at that time. :cheers:

the Aveiro-Salamanca will eventualy NEED to be built in the next 10/20 years since it is a mere upgrade/variant to the heavily used Beira Alta Line (wich was upgraded to 160 km/h in 1995) 

And last the Evora-Beja-Algarve is merely an intention ... it can be as easily a mere upgrade/elctrification of the current route or a completely new 250/350 km/h HSL (at Beja theres a new airport under construction with _shedulled_ conections to CHINA) 


More detailing in the map:

- Porto (upper black dot) should be a little more up ... 
- Porto-Braga is served by Alfa Pendular (all trains go to/from lisboa so they travell at 220km/h) so the grey line is effective there
- there are only 2 sections of some 15km each side of coimbra left to upgrade over the center of portugal (the 3rd black dot I placed there) 
- current SLOW speeds dont translate to line speeds but to ENFORCED limitations ... you don't see those kind of "security"/"safety" related limitations in almost nowhere in europe ... :cheers:


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## sotavento

elfabyanos said:


> Yes, it's the part of the route to the north of Darlington that causes the delay - I may have taken a bit of artistic license with the amount of blue north of Newcastle. South of Darlington it's pretty much all 125mph/200km/h apart from a couple of 100mph checks at stations such as Peterborough. The average speed London-York is about 100-105mph, with all the stops. The record London-Edinburgh on this route is 3 hours 29 minutes, though a lot of that was at 140mph/225km/h and it used a short formation train.


Last time I was inside a Virgin red pepper (aka 390 Pendulino) we got ourselves an enlarged sheduled (7h from Glasgow to Euston ?) , a thunderbird acompanied by a 15 minute "mind the gap and smoke like crazy men" at Preston ... a touristic ride SPEEDING THRU Manchester (yess ... god bless railtrack engineering works) and a subsequent DIRECT travel from (where did we left the dam'n thundie? somewhere south of Crewe ... in wich we didn't stop) all the way to Euston ... lets say that we managed to bypass crewe some 1h15/1h30 behind shedule (missing all connectinons in the way to london) and then get a direct passage almost to the end of the route ... where we arrived ON SHEDULE ... actualy 30 minutes earlier than sheduled (a littel bit of ovspeeding always helps I might say). :cheers: 

By the time we should be in Stafford we're on our way to Manchester ... by the time we're on coventry w should be on Rugby ... in the end we bypassed Watford(?) on shedule. 

^^ this acording to the enlarged sheddule ... 

On the other hand ... its allways nice to be stopped 30 minutes inside the Flying scotsman (a HST) at a level crossing in the middle of a 125mph zone ... of the 5 ou 6 cars stopped there only one bloke had the clairvoiance to leave the road and go pass the railway in the BRIDGE just 100m to the side. :bash:


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## elfabyanos

sotavento said:


> About the large cities ... I would propose a very different (and radical) aproach ...
> 
> Black dots reserved to large cities served by HSL (wich may or may not indicate that theres not HSL tracks over there ?)
> Black circles (inside left blank? or just a black stripe over the route color) for areas where a particular route has a small SLOW area (an old tunnel or a city crossing where a variant was not built ??? <<< instead of putting a dashed
> 
> And I strongly sugest the use of a differentiated color for "in project" routes (instead of the dotted/dashed) ...


Hi, I don't understand - why use yet more colours for u/c lines - surely the current design is sufficient? And I don't understand what you're saying about small slow areas - these areas are not dashed on my map!?!?!


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## Swede

It's been almost 4 weeks... any updates?


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## sotavento

elfabyanos said:


> Hi, I don't understand - why use yet more colours for u/c lines - surely the current design is sufficient? And I don't understand what you're saying about small slow areas - these areas are not dashed on my map!?!?!


^^ To aliviate things a bit.

You can use the same colours ... simply use a 1 pixel wide line of the new colour to place a line under construction ... instead of a dotted wide line. 

If an old route exists and is being upgraded you can make that 1 pix line around the old route


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## Steve87

Great map!

I just noticed that there are occasional ICE services from Berlin to the Baltic Sea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCityExpress#Route_planning_and_network_layout


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## gincan

An update on the spanish network, 80km is now UC on the Madrid-Portuguese border line. Se map provided with the link for gegraphical location.

http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/6F7BD86B-8DAA-4944-A5E2-49EAA31B0541/36296/08062003.pdf


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## gincan

After looking at google I think the Vigo-La Coruña line should be considered an entirely new line. The alignment
is for (85-90%) entirely new and is much straighter than would be an upgrade. The trains will (once the whole line is finnished) run under an hour between the cities (155km). Traveltime between the two cities on the old line was 2h 40min.

The same situation is with the Zaragoza-Teruel line (170km). Before the "uppgrade" began, the traveltime was 2h 40 min and when the "uppgrade" is finnished travetime will be 1h 10 min. Although on this line the "new" railroad follow closely or dead on the old line.


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## sotavento

priamos said:


> Hum... yes, but the distance between London and Edinburgh is 530 km (as the crow flies - it's of course a bit more following the tracks) and the fastest train connecting these two cities along the east coast mainline needs 4h20. Wouldn't that indicate that the train does not, by far, travel at 200 km/h on all the route? I realise that part of the problem is the train wastes some 25-30 minutes on 5 (five, goddammit!) intermediate stops, but still....


Best travel times between Kings Cross and York are at 1h51 wich is nice for the ~310km of the trip. 

and you are very wrong on your measures ... 

Berwick - upon- tweed is some 540km north os KC 

Edenborough Waverley is in fact precisely 100km lfurther apart then what it would be if a direct line was built ... 630km 

So 3h plus 1h for 200km/h services is indeed a good time ... and the fastest "direct" train only needs 4h13 to reach Edimburgh (KC 15h departure) :cheers:


but the fact is that the guy who claimed (back in the 80's ?) that the ECML didn't need active pendulation clearly was high on something ... :lol:


London-York could(or more precisely should) be 4 track 250 km/h ... York-Edemborough should be 2 track (4 when possible) 200km/h ... with pendulating trains able to reach 250km/h in most places 




priamos said:


> I correct myself: I now realise that the track my train followed was the one on the western bank of the river and that is most definitely not the one that is supposed to be upgraded for 200 km/h. Answering your question, I think it has more to do with non-automated crossings - and perhaps saturated tracks - than with curves. The line in this part of Germany is straight like an arrow.
> 
> It's one of the points where I suppose Germany looks more like the UK than my native (tiny) Denmark and my adoptive (largeish) France. In both of the latter countries the density of population is around 115 persons per sq.km. and heavily concentrated in a handful of cities. As soon as you're outside the main agglomerations you can roll - even on old, crummy tracks - a pretty constant 160 km/h. In the much more densely populated areas of central Germany and (??) southern England I guess there's an constant problem with congestion and crossing urban zones.


In the York<->Liverpool "central" area of the UK there simply is no "concept" of a straight line at all ... hno:

It seems south of england railways folowed the path of medieval walls and fences ... and in fact most of the land is covered with agricultural terrain. :lol:

Building a french/Spanish stile TGV network would be impossible given british secular legislative procedures.


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## sotavento

gincan said:


> After looking at google I think the Vigo-La Coruña line should be considered an entirely new line. The alignment
> is for (85-90%) entirely new and is much straighter than would be an upgrade. The trains will (once the whole line is finnished) run under an hour between the cities (155km). Traveltime between the two cities on the old line was 2h 40min.
> 
> The same situation is with the Zaragoza-Teruel line (170km). Before the "uppgrade" began, the traveltime was 2h 40 min and when the "uppgrade" is finnished travetime will be 1h 10 min. Although on this line the "new" railroad follow closely or dead on the old line.


^^ It could be considered "upgraded" track in the same maner as most other blue lines on the map.


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## elfabyanos

sotavento said:


> Best travel times between Kings Cross and York are at 1h51 wich is nice for the ~310km of the trip.
> 
> and you are very wrong on your measures ...
> 
> Berwick - upon- tweed is some 540km north os KC
> 
> Edenborough Waverley is in fact precisely 100km lfurther apart then what it would be if a direct line was built ... 630km
> 
> So 3h plus 1h for 200km/h services is indeed a good time ... and the fastest "direct" train only needs 4h13 to reach Edimburgh (KC 15h departure) :cheers:


Indeed. I also need to remove the blue bit north of Newcastle, as the 200/225km/h max speed goes as far north as Darlington, max speed northwards from there is no more than 185km/h.



> but the fact is that the guy who claimed (back in the 80's ?) that the ECML didn't need active pendulation clearly was high on something ... :lol:


Its unbelievably frustrating, as was a lot of decisions from the 80s.



> London-York could(or more precisely should) be 4 track 250 km/h ... York-Edemborough should be 2 track (4 when possible) 200km/h ... with pendulating trains able to reach 250km/h in most places


FYI - some further detail - The Huntingdon - Peterborough section used to be 4 tracks, and there is talk of reinstating that from the current double. The Peterborough - Doncaster section is four tracks for a short distance north of Peterborough, then mainly two track to Doncaster with some long 3 track sections as freight loops. It is intended that all freight be diverted via Lincoln, and using that line as a sort of quadrupling of the mainline. At present this diversionary route is as bit below standard.

Doncaster - York - new section of track built in the 80s, some freight is being diverted from it, no need to 4 track as short distance anyway.

York - Northallerton - 4 track.

Northallerton - Newcastle - mainly 2 track - again plans to create diversionary routes for freight - there are billions of old alignments in this area that could be reused, or branch lines upgraded for this.


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## gincan

sotavento said:


> ^^ It could be considered "upgraded" track in the same maner as most other blue lines on the map.


I don't see how Vigo-La Coruña could be considered upgraded when almost the entire line is completely new?
It has a new alignment several km away from the old one.

For me an upgraded line is one where they have uppgraded the infrastructure of the old line, like the ones in Sweden for example. This line consists of entirely new infrastructure. Bridges, Tunels and trackbed built from scratch.


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## sotavento

gincan said:


> I don't see how Vigo-La Coruña could be considered upgraded when almost the entire line is completely new?
> It has a new alignment several km away from the old one.
> 
> For me an upgraded line is one where they have uppgraded the infrastructure of the old line, like the ones in Sweden for example. This line consists of entirely new infrastructure. Bridges, Tunels and trackbed built from scratch.


^^ haven't you read 1/2 post in this topic ??? 

Vigo-Corunha is upgraded track with major variants. 

Routes are being considered as merely "corridors" (or something like that) ... Lisboa-Porto , Madrid-Valencia (old route) and Vigo-Corunha are basicaly mere"upgrades" to current routes ... but feel free to feed updated and detailed info to elfabyanos ... he would surely be glad for that extra info. :lol:


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## sotavento

elfabyanos said:


> Indeed. I also need to remove the blue bit north of Newcastle, as the 200/225km/h max speed goes as far north as Darlington, max speed northwards from there is no more than 185km/h.
> 
> 
> 
> Its unbelievably frustrating, as was a lot of decisions from the 80s.
> 
> 
> 
> FYI - some further detail - The Huntingdon - Peterborough section used to be 4 tracks, and there is talk of reinstating that from the current double. The Peterborough - Doncaster section is four tracks for a short distance north of Peterborough, then mainly two track to Doncaster with some long 3 track sections as freight loops. It is intended that all freight be diverted via Lincoln, and using that line as a sort of quadrupling of the mainline. At present this diversionary route is as bit below standard.
> 
> Doncaster - York - new section of track built in the 80s, some freight is being diverted from it, no need to 4 track as short distance anyway.
> 
> York - Northallerton - 4 track.
> 
> Northallerton - Newcastle - mainly 2 track - again plans to create diversionary routes for freight - there are billions of old alignments in this area that could be reused, or branch lines upgraded for this.


^^ Everything would be so much simpler if you had placed an aditional color in the map for those damn 180-200 km/h routes ... 

_"I told you so"_ et: 



And I know how the ECML is currently perfectly well ... last year (or was 2 years ago?) I managed to get scolded by the lady in the bar of a HST because I was "hanging my head over the edge of the window and could be hurt by incoming trains" (while we were stoped at a malfunctioning High Speed level crossing) ... and other time we were STALLED on the end of a 4 track section somewhere up north and there were like 4 or 5 coals trains around us ... ALL moving ... and all pointing SOUTH in the other 3 tracks. :lol:


(sidenote: nothing beats 1track all the way to Inverness ... and that damn electronic tokens in the highlands)


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## gincan

sotavento said:


> ^^ haven't you read 1/2 post in this topic ???
> 
> Vigo-Corunha is upgraded track with major variants.


By studying the new "variants" that are visible in Google, you will see that these "variants" are actually an entirely new route for the entire length of the line. The old line will be dugg up and scraped ones the whole line is finished. There have even been complains in the press because of this, since the new route skip som 20+ stations between the two cities. 

You can't compare this line with Lisabon-Porto or Madrid-Valencia since those lines are indeed upgrades of the original infrastructure, in the Vigo-La Coruña case the entire line (save through cities) have been re built from scratch. The "variants" are merely sections that have been conected to the old line so that the new railway can be used during the construction of the remaining sections.


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## sotavento

^^ Again ... it's been discussed already ... 100% new route buid on the same "general" alignement of the old route = it's considered "upgraded" track ... the extreme case of upgraded track but nonetheless upgraded track. :lol: 


by the way ... this is another point worth mentioning ... some of the 300/350 km/h routes in spain were built over the old abandoned routes (like Segovia-Olmedo) ...


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## gincan

sotavento said:


> ^^ Again ... it's been discussed already ... 100% new route buid on the same "general" alignement of the old route = it's considered "upgraded" track ... the extreme case of upgraded track but nonetheless upgraded track. :lol:


Upgraded=Old line adapted to higher speeds, this applies to for example Seville-Cadiz or Lisbon-Porto. But in the case of Vigo-La Coruña the old line is so curvy it is impossible to adapt it for higher speeds so they have to build an entirely new railway line, wich they are doing right now. You can't upgrade something you're building from scratch. 

And the new alignment is totaly diffrent from the old line, if they had chosen to build to the "general" alignment as you describe it, traveltime between the two cities would be 2 hours instead of under one when the line is finished.


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## elfabyanos

A little update. Anybody got any news?


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## staff

I guess the grey line between Malmö and - at least Örestad st. in Copenhagen should be marked as "newly built lines 200km/h+", right? A tiny stretch, but nonetheless.


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## Yappofloyd

elfabyanos, you have done an absolutely, fantastic job in progressing this map and whilst being receptive to all of the various contributions, debates and disagreements. I am sure that it has taken you many more hours than you anticipated.

I really apreciate it as I have been looking for a consolidated HSR map for a while and this serves that purpose.

So a huge thanks.


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## elfabyanos

staff said:


> I guess the grey line between Malmö and - at least Örestad st. in Copenhagen should be marked as "newly built lines 200km/h+", right? A tiny stretch, but nonetheless.


Of course. I have to be a pain and ask for a link in case I can't find one myself. Also, are trains actually going at this speed yet or is this another one for the long list of 'to be added'?


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## elfabyanos

Yappofloyd said:


> elfabyanos, you have done an absolutely, fantastic job in progressing this map and receptive to all of the various contributions, debates and disagreements. I am sure that it has taken you many more hours than you anticipated.
> 
> I really apreciate it as I have been looking for a consolidated HSR map for a while and this serves that purpose.
> 
> So a huge thanks.


Thanks, it has been complex. I believe we have a map we can trust quite well, as well as a whole thread of supporting links which at some point I would like to document separately. I'm glad it is of benefit to you, and I hope we can keep it going.


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## Isek

elfabyanos said:


> A little update. Anybody got any news?


Why is the proposed line Stuttgart-Ulm missing? 

The refering page of DB says it will be designed for 250km/h:
http://www.stuttgart21.de/site/stuttgart21/de/verbindungen21/stuttgart__ulm/stuttgart__ulm.html


----------



## staff

elfabyanos said:


> Of course. I have to be a pain and ask for a link in case I can't find one myself. Also, are trains actually going at this speed yet or is this another one for the long list of 'to be added'?


I have no idea where to find such a document (I searched on the Öresund Bridge's website-- www.oeresundsbron.se), but the whole stretch I am referring to was finished in the year 2000. Basically it's the bridge itself and the connecting railways on either side of the bridge (you have included those on the Swedish side but not on the Danish side in your current map btw). The commuter trains have a maximum speed of 180km/h, but the Swedish X2000 trains reach 200km/h while on the bridge and in the tunnel section. However, the distance between the stations on the Danish side is very small (CPH Airport -> Tårnby -> Örestad) that no train could reach any high speeds. Although the tracks should be fitted to allow for speeds over 200km/h.


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## elfabyanos

Cool thanks.


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## staff

Swede might be of help in this instance - he should be the most well informed Swedish forumer regarding the railway situation in the country.


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## Hubert Pollak

Isek said:


> Why is the proposed line Stuttgart-Ulm missing?
> 
> The refering page of DB says it will be designed for 250km/h:
> http://www.stuttgart21.de/site/stuttgart21/de/verbindungen21/stuttgart__ulm/stuttgart__ulm.html


I think It is still in planning phase not under construction.
Anyway I hope thath a lot of construcions in Germany will start soon (Stuttgart - Ulm, Manheim - Frankfurt, new lines around Fulda).


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## JoKo65

Map on wiki:










Explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Europe


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## cees

from antwerp to amsterdam it would take still quite a while before they will join the 300 kilometer club, (if this will ever happen), i think it will stay 250, but even that isnt running yet..


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## elfabyanos

I think some of that Wikipedia map is copied from mine and its only appeared since we started this thread, and I've since corrected some bits that are on it


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## sotavento

^^ Does that map sound familiar ??? hno:


----------



## jkjkjk

elfabyanos said:


> I think some of that Wikipedia map is copied from mine and its only appeared since we started this thread, and I've since corrected some bits that are on it


See http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bernese_media. Created independently, but fixed using your map. Also http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Schnellfahrstrecke#Schnellfahrstrecken_in_Europa_-_Karte is long discussion about in (in German).


----------



## LtBk

What are plans for HSR in Czech Republic and other central European countries?


----------



## elfabyanos

jkjkjk said:


> See http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bernese_media. Created independently, but fixed using your map. Also http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Schnellfahrstrecke#Schnellfahrstrecken_in_Europa_-_Karte is long discussion about in (in German).


Well I'm glad. It's shows that we've done something useful here!!!


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## RawLee

LtBk said:


> What are plans for HSR in Czech Republic and other central European countries?


Here:










Green are the most important corridors now,red are the planned HSRs.


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## Swede

^Nice  how close to reality are the plans? i.e. when will they be built realistically? In which order? I'm guessing the line to Wien/Bratislava would be first, right?



staff said:


> Swede might be of help in this instance - he should be the most well informed Swedish forumer regarding the railway situation in the country.


I honestly don't know about speed limits on the ÖresundLink. 200km/h for a new-built line like that sounds pretty certain tho. I'm guessing it goes all the way to the link with the Danish main line, but I doubt trains are going 200 km/h all the way - and even if they it'd only be the Sweidsh X2000 trains since the commutertrains wouldn't wanna waste resources accelerating and braking the whole time.


----------



## RawLee

Swede said:


> ^Nice  how close to reality are the plans? i.e. when will they be built realistically? In which order? I'm guessing the line to Wien/Bratislava would be first, right?


This is a layer in the "masterplan"(blueprint?) of the country,its as official as it can be,as of 2008 april...but no line will be built before 2020 AFAIK. There are 2 on that map which surfaced in the news,the one to Vienna(or Bratislava) in the TGV-est(?) plan,and the one to Bucharest,mainly in the romanian media.These have the highest chance to be built first.


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## Norbb

Very interesting!

Are there any plans to link up the western and eastern HSR-trunks in Budapest? Would be logical IMHO to connect the line to Romania to the "Magistrale for Europe".


----------



## RawLee

Norbb said:


> Very interesting!
> 
> Are there any plans to link up the western and eastern HSR-trunks in Budapest? Would be logical IMHO to connect the line to Romania to the "Magistrale for Europe".


The conventional lines are connected in the city:









The problem is,its a heavily used route,as its one of the 3 routes that cross the Danube in the entire country,and only 1 of those is on the correct route. 
Making a "better" place for a station would include 2 bridges and a station in an area without even tramlines,hence a new metro.(On the island in the middle,somewhere south of the green "HÉV" line,though even that would mean cutting through densely-populated areas...)

The circled station on the other hand is perfect for such purposes,will get metro in a few years,but it will mean about 20min(or more,I dont know) to get out of the city on conventional lines which are heavily used by even freight trains.


----------



## staff

Swede said:


> I honestly don't know about speed limits on the ÖresundLink. 200km/h for a new-built line like that sounds pretty certain tho. I'm guessing it goes all the way to the link with the Danish main line, but I doubt trains are going 200 km/h all the way - and even if they it'd only be the Sweidsh X2000 trains since the commutertrains wouldn't wanna waste resources accelerating and braking the whole time.


Well, on the link (bridge-island-tunnel) all trains reach their maximum speed (180km/h for commuter trains, 200 km/h for X2000), but I guess the tracks are dimensioned for much higher speeds than that. As soon as it reaches the Danish side though, there are too many closely located stations for any higher speeds to be reached.

We can at least conclude that the link part should be marked as at least "newly built lines 200km/h+".


----------



## Norbb

RawLee said:


> The problem is,its a heavily used route,as its one of the 3 routes that cross the Danube in the entire country,and only 1 of those is on the correct route.
> Making a "better" place for a station would include 2 bridges and a station in an area without even tramlines,hence a new metro.(On the island in the middle,somewhere south of the green "HÉV" line,though even that would mean cutting through densely-populated areas...)
> 
> The circled station on the other hand is perfect for such purposes,will get metro in a few years,but it will mean about 20min(or more,I dont know) to get out of the city on conventional lines which are heavily used by even freight trains.


Interesting.
I tried to grasp the network as well as the topography of Budapest to fantasize about solutions, and I say I need to visit this city badly. 
Adding a second railway bridge right next to the existing southern one with a station at Kobanya-Kispest or as you proposed at Kelenfoldi palyaudvar
Or a tunnel under the city with a station at Mexicol ut or Pillanego utca.

Quite off topic, is there a thread on railway projects/speculation in Budapest?


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## RawLee

Norbb said:


> Interesting.
> I tried to grasp the network as well as the topography of Budapest to fantasize about solutions, and I say I need to visit this city badly.
> Adding a second railway bridge right next to the existing southern one with a station at Kobanya-Kispest or as you proposed at Kelenfoldi palyaudvar
> Or a tunnel under the city with a station at Mexicol ut or Pillanego utca.
> 
> Quite off topic, is there a thread on railway projects/speculation in Budapest?


The best would be neither. You cant add a second bridge(city grew it around),and cant tunnel through,wouldnt justify the costs.

Budapest public transport:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444856
Railway infrastructure
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=501222

But just visit our section,we have our own. There are more qualified people there than I am.


----------



## jkjkjk

LtBk said:


> What are plans for HSR in Czech Republic and other central European countries?


Plans are impressive, as usual(you can see one for Czech Republic on last page here: http://vrt.fd.cvut.cz/data/dokumenty/koncepce_vrt_cr.pdf), but in reality reconstruction on main tracks for 160 km/h is ongoing. That applies for Czech Republic, Slovak Republic, Poland and Hungary. So the possible construction of HSR will start after, so may be in next 5 years. I do not expect any completed HSR in CE in next 5 years.


----------



## E2rdEm

Polish plans for HSR are discussed in this thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=603246
I've posted there an update about government plans issued this month...


----------



## sotavento

staff said:


> Well, on the link (bridge-island-tunnel) all trains reach their maximum speed (180km/h for commuter trains, 200 km/h for X2000), but I guess the tracks are dimensioned for much higher speeds than that. As soon as it reaches the Danish side though, there are too many closely located stations for any higher speeds to be reached.
> 
> We can at least conclude that the link part should be marked as at least "newly built lines 200km/h+".


"Only" 200km/h on the oressund seems reasonable and should definitely be classed as "High Speed" since it's a major oceanic crossing.

And one should always remember that those are the "trains" limits and not the railway/bridge. 

Changing subject:

Over here the Lisboa-south/Madrid bridge is suposed to have lower than expectable speeds (limit not defined yet or should I say "not anounced" to the general public) but that is simply because the MAIN station is just 3km north of it (contrary to oresund wich sits in the middle of the route). 

Speculating (about the Lisboa-Madrid route) speed limits will be something like:
(Departing from lisboa)
- 3km at 160 km/h (? or even less?)
- 7km at 120/160/200 km/h (probably different speed limits in the two extremities of the bridge since the "main" waterway is on the lisboa side)
- 5km of tunnel at 250/300 km/h (?) 
- 180km at 350 km/h 
^^ As soon as the line exits from the bridge it imediately will dug onto a tunnel and from there it will be always "flat-running" until the border with no major obstacle to cross ... rougly some 550km will be run at full speed (possibly well above the anounced 350km/h in the future) between Lisboa and Madrid. hno:

[_to be continued_]


----------



## Timoth12

LtBk said:


> What are plans for HSR in Czech Republic and other central European countries?


The core HSR route will be probably Bratislava-Zvolen-Košice, although the voices for the northern corridor Žilina-Martin-Poprad-Košice are loud, but this route is getting modernised 160 km/h track. The good thing is, that many mayors already in the planning documentation reserved the area for the future construction.

The track number 614 is planned HSR route.










Bratislava and Brno /Břeclav/ route will be probably constructed right along D2 motorway. Bratislava-Žilina-Polish border is planned HSR connection to Poland.

But IMHO the first HSR will be connection from Bratislava to Vienna.


----------



## Norbb

It would be great if the HSR-line "Magistrale for Europe" would go through Bratislava as well, instead of branching out - Vienna-Bratislava-Györ-Budapest.

Im curious what could be the reason for the branch in the days of Schengen.

http://www.magistrale.org/images/topkarte-mit-magistrale-zuege.jpg


----------



## Timoth12

Norbb said:


> It would be great if the HSR-line "Magistrale for Europe" would go through Bratislava as well, instead of branching out - Vienna-Bratislava-Györ-Budapest.
> 
> Im curious what could be the reason for the branch in the days of Schengen.
> 
> http://www.magistrale.org/images/topkarte-mit-magistrale-zuege.jpg


I think I probably know the reason, whatever....
Bratislava is a part of TEN17 corridor, so this is the most important issue.

Also, another contemplated project is prolongation of wide gauge railway from Košice to Vienna, so Bratislava really could not complain of minor attention.


----------



## Norbb

I dont have the fear of Bratislava beeing ignored. 
I just question the approach on this issue.


"Magistrale for Europe" and TEN-17 is basically the same, but apparently while the European Comission sees it to Bratislava with an independent line Vienna-Budapest, the Initiative "Magistrale for Europe" (carried by most cities on the line, and their chambers of commerce and industry) wants it to Budapest.

For me both positions are absurd, because having Bratislava with ~600.000 inhabitants so close to an imaginary direct and straight line between Vienna and Budapest, it is perfectly justified to bend that line to the north.

In addition there already is the "Marchegger Ast" - a single track planned to be upgraded and electrified - which with almost 40km is the longest perfectly straight rail track in Austria. This IMHO nullifies cost for a needed tunnel through Devinske Karpaty, as there already is the right of way for such a long section with no need to build an entirely new rail route.

I guess we just have to wait and see.


----------



## Timoth12

Norbb said:


> I dont have the fear of Bratislava beeing ignored.
> I just question the approach on this issue.
> 
> 
> "Magistrale for Europe" and TEN-17 is basically the same, but apparently while the European Comission sees it to Bratislava with an independent line Vienna-Budapest, the Initiative "Magistrale for Europe" (carried by most cities on the line, and their chambers of commerce and industry) wants it to Budapest.
> 
> For me both positions are absurd, because having Bratislava with ~600.000 inhabitants so close to an imaginary direct and straight line between Vienna and Budapest, it is perfectly justified to bend that line to the north.


We will see, what it will be like. Actually I read the latest "magistrale newsletter" and in the news is Slovakia very well presented. Also the words of railway representative by construction start of the new section "Connection from Paris through Strasbourg and Stuttgart to Bratislava, or Budapest is one of the most important projects... "Die Verbindung von Paris über Strasbourg und Stuttgart nach Bratislava bzw. Budapest ist eines der wichtigsten Projekte".

In any case, Vienna is the nearest centerpoint of HSR connection, Bratislava will be connected to it soon and without any doubt.




Norbb said:


> In addition there already is the "Marchegger Ast" - a single track planned to be upgraded and electrified - which with almost 40km is the longest perfectly straight rail track in Austria. This IMHO nullifies cost for a needed tunnel through Devinske Karpaty, as there already is the right of way for such a long section with no need to build an entirely new rail route.
> 
> I guess we just have to wait and see.


Yes, on Austrian side the Marchegger Ast it is perfectly straight, from Slovakia the railway part not that much. From the Marchegg there are suburbian stations Devínska Nová ves and Lamač, moreover, before the Bratislava main station there are two tunnels, as the terrain there is hilly. So the need for a tunnel is real, but the lenghth could not be somehow big, up to 1 km, maybe more IMHO. Another point is, that from Lamač the existed railway run through highly urbanised area and the new HSR would as well. As I mentioned before, the similar thoughts are in connection to possible Bratislava-Břeclav line, in this case along the D2 motorway. 

But constructing HSR line along the Marchegger Ast is maybe not that bad. The construction costs could be significantly lower.Or mabe you think Marchegger Ast could be reconstructed for HSR. But then which route would regular trains traffic run. Southern route through Petržalka would not be that sufficient.


----------



## Norbb

Timoth12, I had in mind to upgrade Marchegger Ast to HSR with a tunnel through Male Karpaty and then coming from the north into new Filalka station. Then leaving Bratislava through the planned tunnel under the Danube to continue to Budapest. Or staying in Slovakia to avoid crossing the Danube and entering Budapest directly on the right bank (downside is leaving out Györ). 




I browsed through the "[Slovakia] Railway Infrastructure" thread and I found some great info.

Info on the Tunnel:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=20050735&postcount=309

Great post by "Qwert" answering many quesitions:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=23523568&postcount=363

So basically the original route of TEN-17 ends in Bratislava, but only recently Budapest came into play. And it is still not clear what route will be chosen - I hope neither Budapest (as originally planned) nor Bratislava will be left out.


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## GAR3TH

sorry wrong post, EDIT


----------



## Timoth12

2 Norbb: How is the HSR planning in Austria and especially Vienna proceeding?


----------



## ArthurK

Is the UK requirement of yellow noses in line with EU regulations? It really frustrates interopability within the EU if every country has it's own requirements for the way the front of each train should look like. Especially if countries have contradicting requirements, for example if the noses have to be white in some other country.

Furthermore, there are (almost?) no level crossings on such dedicated high speed lines as the High Speed 1. There might be less need for yellow fronts, which might make the UK requirement unreasonable for foreign rail carriers who want to enter the cross-border market to London.

Here in Holland, yellow OR white fronts are required. But still, the Thalys high speed trains can come and go while they have red noses. This might be because the requirement became effective after the Thalys was put into service, but I wonder what would happen if Thalys ordered new trains with red fronts.


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## 33Hz

A little over ten years ago, passengers were not allowed in the front car of a train going at more than 100mph. Then the Pendolinos came along and that was revoked, but you still see almost half their front car used for other things.

Now we have people in the front of the 140mph Javelins on HS1, so perhaps the rules for that line have changed and the yellow panel will no longer be needed.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Falubaz said:


> U mean Brenner? Or maybe San Gottardo - since this would be shorter way for FR-Milano?


There are voices for a Muenchen-Zuerich-Milano train from 2013, date of electrification of the Lindau-Geltendorf section of this line. And with the Gotthard Base Tunnel this will probably be faster than the Brenner, at least until the opening of the Brenner Base Tunnel.


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## Rohne

Of course I meant Gotthard and not Brenner (for Frankfurt - Milano). Should have read my post before sending...


----------



## sotavento

ArthurK said:


> Is the UK requirement of yellow noses in line with EU regulations? It really frustrates interopability within the EU if every country has it's own requirements for the way the front of each train should look like. Especially if countries have contradicting requirements, for example if the noses have to be white in some other country.
> 
> Furthermore, there are (almost?) no level crossings on such dedicated high speed lines as the High Speed 1. There might be less need for yellow fronts, which might make the UK requirement unreasonable for foreign rail carriers who want to enter the cross-border market to London.
> 
> Here in Holland, yellow OR white fronts are required. But still, the Thalys high speed trains can come and go while they have red noses. This might be because the requirement became effective after the Thalys was put into service, but I wonder what would happen if Thalys ordered new trains with red fronts.


The front of the train needs to be EASY TO SEE ... every country uses what suits them ... every operator should use what suits their local environment ... 


oh ... and most private companies just go with their corporate colors and dammned be the visibility. :lol:


----------



## Dinivan

^^ you know, the single market was created because protectionism was no longer related to tariffs, which had been abolished thanks to the EEC. For example, the fireproof paint composition was different in each country, just by a single element that did not really make any difference, but factories would have had to adapt the whole production line for a new type of paint and therefore each country had its own firm dedicated to that. Another example, the french forcing all cars to have yellow instead of white lights because they thought it was more safe, that increased costs for automakers wishing to export to france as they also had to adapt a part of the assembly line to exclusively put in a different light colour. As ArthurK suggests, I don't think this case of the trains that need to be painted in yellow is different.


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## convalescence

this article is a bit older, but interesting for this discussion though

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article2782419.ece


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## JoKo65

convalescence said:


> this article is a bit older, but interesting for this discussion though
> 
> http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article2782419.ece


Yes, but it says nothing about the check-in procedures. Because of them a service between Germany and London won't be possible.


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## Rohne

Pessimistic German railroad fans....

Impossible is nothing. If you only want a solution, you will find one - that's for sure!


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## JoKo65

Rohne said:


> Pessimistic German railroad fans....
> 
> Impossible is nothing. If you only want a solution, you will find one - that's for sure!


Nice slogan, but reality is a bit more complicated.


----------



## Chilenofuturista

DiggerD21 said:


> I would like to have a HSR-link Paris-Brussels-Rotterdam-Utrecht-Groningen-Bremen-Hamburg-Copenhagen-Stockholm.


Paris-Brussels-Rotterdam-Utrecht-Groningen-Bremen-Hamburg, yes.

But from the danish border and northwards, nope- at least not in a long, long time. Scandinavia is passivity land. Hot air land. Many, many and way too many studies and a lot of bla bla from the authorities but not much is getting done in investing in HSR. Perhaps Norway might start getting busy, but Denmark or Sweden? Nah. Not in a long time. 
Sorry to disappoint you. 
Cheers.


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## LtBk

Pretty pathetic on them. These countries are suppose to be among the most progressive yet they oppose HSL through their countries.


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## gincan

LtBk said:


> Pretty pathetic on them. These countries are suppose to be among the most progressive yet they oppose HSL through their countries.


Scandinavian countries are indeed amongs the most progressive in the world but they are useless when i comes to infrastructure. Usually big infrastructure projects take between 40 and 50 years to realise. Now the HSR project through Sweden only really begun in the mid 1990s so a HSR before 2030-2040 is almost out of the cuestion.


----------



## sotavento

Dinivan said:


> ^^ you know, the single market was created because protectionism was no longer related to tariffs, which had been abolished thanks to the EEC. For example, the fireproof paint composition was different in each country, just by a single element that did not really make any difference, but factories would have had to adapt the whole production line for a new type of paint and therefore each country had its own firm dedicated to that. Another example, the french forcing all cars to have yellow instead of white lights because they thought it was more safe, that increased costs for automakers wishing to export to france as they also had to adapt a part of the assembly line to exclusively put in a different light colour. As ArthurK suggests, I don't think this case of the trains that need to be painted in yellow is different.


^^ Please face reality ... the "common market" is a conglomerate of various individual groups of interests ... 


point one - each and every train trying to cross the channel tunnel will need to comply to the rules aplied there (so no ICE3 would ever cross without large remodeling/modification) ...

point two - the "visibility" rules aply everywhere ... in the green UK it was deemed that a yellow front was the right choise ... the front of the train NEEDS to be visible ... usually they go with yellow fronts in GREENER countries and with RED fronts in places where it snows ... go figure. :cheers:
Yellow = UK , NL , Poland , Spain(until recently it was the official color) , Portugal(EMU's+shunters) , others
Red = Germany , Swithzerland , Austria , Portugal (locomotives+emu/dmu)


So for a ICE3 train to go to the UK it will need to have a yellow front and comply to the CT security rules ... it's "doable" ... just see the Eurostar trainsets ... pure TGV trainset with yellow cab/front and security measures implemented. :nuts:

And the remaining of your rant" is complete bias ... railways aply everywhere ...

Offtopic: in every environment (except in snow) the "white" color is a high visibility choise. :cheers:


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## Slagathor

sotavento said:


> point two - the "visibility" rules aply everywhere ... in the green UK it was deemed that a yellow front was the right choise ... the front of the train NEEDS to be visible ... usually they go with yellow fronts in GREENER countries and with RED fronts in places where it snows ... go figure. :cheers:
> Yellow = UK , *NL *,


----------



## 33Hz

Map in Thursday's Guardian: http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/08/06/RAIL_0508.pdf


----------



## sotavento

Slagathor said:


>


They were yellow ... now they are white ... the rule still aplies ... it doesn't snow that much in the netherlands dows it ??? :cheers:


----------



## DarkLoki

sotavento said:


> They were yellow ... now they are white ... the rule still aplies ... it doesn't snow that much in the netherlands dows it ??? :cheers:


What the hell are you talking about, you are just making up rules that do not exist. Does the ICE have a red front?

In the Netherlands there was never a rule about this as far a I know. Look at this old train:









or this one:









These train are still allowed to run here.

To make trains visible you can use the wonderful invention of the headlight. Which in the Netherlands are traditionally yellow, but on new trains also white.


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## Slagathor

sotavento said:


> They were yellow ... now they are white ... the rule still aplies ... it doesn't snow that much in the netherlands dows it ??? :cheers:


You're stark raving mad. Yellow noses were never a rule in the Netherlands, but for a while, entire trains were painted yellow because NS adopted that as their company's dominant color.

Don't drag us into your mess.


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## ghost101

33Hz said:


> Map in Thursday's Guardian: http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/08/06/RAIL_0508.pdf


How many of those future lines will actually get built?

Some of those seem optimistic. A lot of the countries have better uses for public money, i.e. having a more widespread rail network at more rudimentary speeds. Jumping straight to high speed rail doesn't seem plausible. Although perhaps their definition of hsr being 250km/h may make them a less of a step than you may think at first.

Also, just looking through the nations. Germany has already 1285km of HSR, with over a 1000km more at the "development phase" and yet I can't see anything like that on their map. 3 new sections with the longest being from Nuremberg.


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## ArthurK

@Slagathor: There are certainly some rules regarding the visibility of trainfronts in The Netherlands. They are in a ministerial regulation under the Dutch Railroad Act. These rules are very complex (if you can read Dutch: see them here at page 20), but the bottomline is that new constructed trains should have a certain size of a white _or_ yellow painted area on their front. However, the rule does not apply on historical trains and trains which already existed when these rules came into effect (2005).

The new Sprinter Light Train (SLT) posted by Slagathor has enough white on it's front. The other Dutch trains posted above were put into service before the new rules came into effect and are used for historical railway trips, so these rules do not apply to them. It is disputable whether the latest series of the VIRM double stock trainsets are in line with the regulation, because they have too less yellow and were ordered after 2005:








Source


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## Slagathor

That rule is as good as redundant, nobody pays any attention to it.


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## DarkLoki

Oh, I never knew about that rule. That would be the end of the "Buffel"









But like the VIRM the thalys also does not adhere tot the rule and it got a new exterior in 2008 but it is completely red. So you could call the rule pretty redundant indeed.


----------



## Never give up

Forget all that nonsense about yellow and striped fronts on trains. 
There is only one effective way to see approaching trains and that is three strong headlights.
In fact headlights are so visually effective, that it is why it is compulsary in Scandinavia for motorists to have their headlights (dipped) on all the time.
Photo from Nordhavn in Copenhagen with an Øresund train heading for Sweden.


----------



## sotavento

DarkLoki said:


> What the hell are you talking about, you are just making up rules that do not exist. Does the ICE have a red front?
> 
> In the Netherlands there was never a rule about this as far a I know. Look at this old train:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These train are still allowed to run here.
> 
> To make trains visible you can use the wonderful invention of the headlight. Which in the Netherlands are traditionally yellow, but on new trains also white.


High Speed trains are usually WHITE nowadays for a reason. :lol:



Slagathor said:


> You're stark raving mad. Yellow noses were never a rule in the Netherlands, but for a while, entire trains were painted yellow because NS adopted that as their company's dominant color.
> 
> Don't drag us into your mess.


Who ever told you "yellow noses" were a rule there ??? 

Old trains were either dark green or red ... usually WITH a white area around the headlights ... in the sixties (when UIC dictated the high-visibility front colors tru all europe) they changed the ENTIRE train to yellow in the NL.



Slagathor said:


> That rule is as good as redundant, nobody pays any attention to it.


Learn to live with the truth ... :cheers:



Never give up said:


> Forget all that nonsense about yellow and striped fronts on trains.
> There is only one effective way to see approaching trains and that is three strong headlights.
> In fact headlights are so visually effective, that it is why it is compulsary in Scandinavia for motorists to have their headlights (dipped) on all the time.
> Photo from Nordhavn in Copenhagen with an Øresund train heading for Sweden.


There are countries where it isn't even mandatory to have headlights ... at least until some time ago. :cheers:


----------



## hans280

sotavento said:


> There are countries where it isn't even mandatory to have headlights ... at least until some time ago. :cheers:


Yeah, and when I lived in Switzerland (admittedly that's many years ago...) there were a couple of cantons where it was still "forbidden" to drive a Scandinavian car: the local police ordonances forbade the use of headlights "when not necessitated by conditions of visibility". Hence, if one drove around on a sunny day with the headlights on one could get busted by the Kantonspolizei. Admittedly, those rules had been crafted in the days of DC batteries which could be emptied if one used the lights too much... In reality I don't think anybody every had to pay a fine. :lol:


----------



## DarkLoki

sotavento said:


> High Speed trains are usually WHITE nowadays for a reason. :lol:


They forgot to tell the thalys that:











> Old trains were either dark green or red ... usually WITH a white area around the headlights ... in the sixties (when UIC dictated the high-visibility front colors tru all europe) they changed the ENTIRE train to yellow in the NL.


Old trains that are not dark green or red:









Not a single train was painted ENTIRELY in yellow but I guess you mean that yellow was used as the base colour. Trains after the sixties that are not yellow:


----------



## Never give up

This 3-system class EG locomotive, designed to run in Sweden, Denmark and Germany pictured at Ørestad south of Copenhagen. The yellow colour here was applied for design effect and not for saftey reasons.
These 3 countries accept headlights as satisfactory warning measure.


----------



## MarkO

*MISC | Rail Maps of the World*

Hi, am searching for nice-looking railway maps from round the world for a project I'm working on so thought it would be a good idea to ask you forummers and also a good excuse to post some pretty piccies of rail maps from the world. 

I'll get the ball rolling but please add your own !

* Detailed map of the NYCRR from around 1876 proudly announcing its 4 track route:











* France by 1914:











* Beautiful 3D-esque relief map of Scotland produced by the LNER/LMS around 1934:











* Uganda Railways poster of early 1920s:











* How the Canadian west was opened up by the railroad:











* The Australian system in 1907 before the sides of the country were connected:











* What was existent and planned in Ireland by 1906 in the Viceregal Commission report:











*The South West of Russia down to Odessa/Black Sea in 1899:











* What Spain has/planned by 1864:











* Britains 'Southern Railway' links to the Continent:











So now it's your turn! Show us what you've got!?


----------



## yaohua2000

*China's rail plan in 1919*

Black = Existing railway
Red = Planned railway


----------



## Coccodrillo

These are not historical maps, but surely interesting:

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/

http://membres.multimania.fr/cartesferro/index_en.html


----------



## ZHUL

*Interrail*










Here's a nice rail map of europe.

Check the offers for an interrail tour! www.interrail.net


----------



## takini

Here's the map of former Yugoslavia 










And a BIG one: http://www3.tron-inter.net/doktor/railway/zel_karta_yu.jpg


----------



## New York Morning

Nice maps. Here is Ukrainian raillway map:


----------



## MarkO

This is great! Keep them coming!!!
:cheers:
Mark


----------



## Nexis

Heres sum Rail maps form around the Northeastern US

MARC - Maryland-DC-West Virgina










MBTA - Massachusetts-Rhode Island










Metro North New York-Connecticut 










Long Island Railroad New York










SEPTA - Southeastern PA - South Jersey - Northern Delaware 










SEPTA Regional Rail future Map










New Jersey Transit - New Jersey & small sections of NYC










CT DOT planned & Existing Rail










Virgina Rail










Thats all the maps , i know and could fit on this site.

~Corey


----------



## New York Morning

If you are also interested in subway maps, here is Moscow subway map:


----------



## MarkO

Nice one Nexis!!

Good to see some excellent maps there from the eastern states.

Older maps welcome too.

Corey: subway maps are great but there's another thread for that I belive over on the "subways" forums  Thanks anyway


----------



## Nexis

MarkO said:


> Nice one Nexis!!
> 
> Good to see some excellent maps there from the eastern states.
> 
> Older maps welcome too.
> 
> Corey: subway maps are great but there's another thread for that I belive over on the "subways" forums  Thanks anyway


Those aren't subway maps , those are Commuter Rail maps. Only subway map is the SEPTA one , but since i couldn't find a separate one for the Regional system i posted that one.


----------



## Atlante

Hiello from Buenos Aires! 
Here you have some maps of the Argentine Railway System. Until the 50's we have one of the more developed railways systems of the world. Up today most of the passenger lines are closed.hno:
1. Current operative lines (Freight)

2. Current operative lines (Passenger)

3. All the historical lines

4. Maximum extension of the Argentine system in comparison with European (using Bern as Buenos Aires)

Hope you like them!


----------



## ZHUL

This is a map from the swiss railway (SBB)

Switzerland has one of the densest railway system worldwide.


----------



## MarkO

Nexis said:


> Those aren't subway maps , those are Commuter Rail maps. Only subway map is the SEPTA one , but since i couldn't find a separate one for the Regional system i posted that one.



Hey Nexis, all maps welcome of any denomination! Commuter rail defintitely belongs on this page here.

But do take a look at this thread when you have time: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=367975 It's subway-map heaven  It lives just across the road in the SSC section on Subways 

Latest posts by ZHUL and Atlante are excellent, :cheers: keep 'em coming - let's at least see if we can get one from every country with railroads and the more historic old ones the better ! Get those scanners rumbling!:banana:


----------



## Timon91

Has anyone got a German map? There is quite a decent map in all German IC-trains, but I can't find it anywhere on the internet.


----------



## FML

MarkO said:


> let's at least see if we can get one from every country with railroads and the more historic old ones the better !


The thread should be titled "_Old_ rail maps", then.

Japanese railway map, 1890. Dashed lines were under construction.









My favorite map, from 1988. Click for gigantic images.


----------



## Unsing

Japanese maps from other eras. Click to enlarge.

Truly oldest rail map of Japan
planning map of the Tokyo-Yokohama line, which opened in 1872 as the nation's first rail service.


1932 the Empire of Japan


Set of 1964 JNR maps


----------



## MarkO

Unsing said:


> Japanese maps from other eras.


Absolutely beautiful Unsing. Bravo for posting those. It's so refreshing for us westerners to see just how different and beautifully made rail maps can be from other parts of the world. Thanks so much for posting those.

And FML too, another very striking example:cheers: Well happy to change the title if you like but current maps welcome too!

Turning into a very pretty thread so thanks to all and keep them rolling in!

Yep, seen very little from Germany. This is the most recent thing I could find and I don't think its an official map - can anyone help find better - ancient or modern???


----------



## Coccodrillo

Coccodrillo said:


> These are not historical maps, but surely interesting:
> 
> http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/
> 
> http://membres.multimania.fr/cartesferro/index_en.html


(post #3 )


----------



## Christophorus

Here you can find as many maps as you like from Germany 1944, site also includes the whole timetable of Deutsche Reichsbahn 1944. Keep in mind that this timetable was the last official before the end of WW2. 

http://www.pkjs.de/bahn/Kursbuch1944/Kursbuchtitel.html

For the maps scroll down to: "Alle Karten im Überblick"

Fernverkehr Inland = long distance services in Germany
Fernverkehr Ausland = long distance services to foreign countries

The rest are regional maps including also all occupied territories at that time.

Enjoy!


----------



## MarkO

Christophorus said:


> Here you can find as many maps as you like from Germany 1944, site also includes the whole timetable of Deutsche Reichsbahn 1944. Keep in mind that this timetable was the last official before the end of WW2.
> 
> http://www.pkjs.de/bahn/Kursbuch1944/Kursbuchtitel.html
> 
> For the maps scroll down to: "Alle Karten im Überblick"
> 
> Fernverkehr Inland = long distance services in Germany
> Fernverkehr Ausland = long distance services to foreign countries
> 
> The rest are regional maps including also all occupied territories at that time.
> 
> Enjoy!


Fascinating stuff Christophorus :cheers:


----------



## woutero

Here you can download the current network map of The Netherlands (PDF).

Here is the full map zoomed out:


----------



## Nexis

Heres a rather large of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail network , future network, PATH Network, Air Train line at EWR and NY waterway as well as NJT lines.










~Corey


----------



## MarkO

Nice one *Corey* :cheers: - the Light rail system there is excellent - I was very impressed by how they converted the old Newark City Subway stations and kept a lot of the beautiful original features like the ceramic signs. 

And isn't there a much needed new tunnel being built under the Hudson? What's gonna use that? AMTRAK?? Was staying with friends near Journal Square last year and the poor old PATH system struggles to cope with the load sometimes! (Also weekend and late night arrangements when it goes to Hoboken is just mad!).

And *Woutero* - bless you for finding that - had been looking for it just yesterday but speaking no Dutch kept finding the wrong thing! However I do LOVE this map which of course was the earlier version of what you've kindly posted here with the classic yellowy background - do you happen to know if there is a better, higher resolution version of that which can be downloaded anywhere??


----------



## K_

takini said:


> Here's the map of former Yugoslavia


That's a very nice map, but a bit outdated. The "Bosnian narrow gauge" lines are still there. The new lines to Ploce and Bar have not yet been built. What year was this from?


----------



## K_

The Zürich Suburban Network:










A bigger version can be downloaded here.

Every colored line on the map represents an S-Bahn service, usually running every half hour. (There few exceptions). In the big PDF version the thin blue lines are bus services feeding the trains.


----------



## marobara

Two Polish maps:

From 1931:
http://www.mapywig.org/m/General_and_tourist_maps/Mapa_Sieci_Kolejowej_Rzeczypospolitej_Polskiej.jpg
and current:
http://www.kolej.one.pl/mapy/1/1088025256.png
note how density of the network reflects the XIX century German - Russian border:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Duchy_of_Warsaw_1809-1815.PNG The pale colour region in the middle is Duchy Of Warsaw - which was dependant to Russia at that time and remained so until 1914.

errr.. how do you resize images?


----------



## TedStriker

^^


That comparison of German and Polish rail networks is fantastic, and shows just how the development of the European railway system depended so much on the political geography of the Continent.


----------



## Christophorus

marobara said:


> Two Polish maps:
> 
> From 1931:
> http://www.mapywig.org/m/General_and_tourist_maps/Mapa_Sieci_Kolejowej_Rzeczypospolitej_Polskiej.jpg


The file will not open for me  is there probably an alternative link? The map would be of very great interest


----------



## poshbakerloo

*MISC | Railway Maps*

Your countries heavy rail maps...

This is for the UK

Here is a map for the Northern Rail network where I live. This just shows the local commuter lines as Northern Rail doesn't run any intercity services...


----------



## woutero

@ MarkO:

The map I posted is actually not the official NS map. It is produced by the people of www.treinreiziger.nl, a Dutch train blog.

The map you posted is the official map of about 10 years ago. There is a slightly larger version here: http://railweb.techsite.cz/mapy/mnls.jpg

The current NS network map that is available at stations is no longer yellow. The 2010 map is not yet available on the NS site. On the NS site it is still the 2009 version, which you can download here.


----------



## MarkO

*CUTS TO RAILWAY SERVICES*



woutero said:


> @ MarkO:
> 
> The map I posted is actually not the official NS map. It is produced by the people of www.treinreiziger.nl, a Dutch train blog.


Thanks Woutero, that's cleared up now! (Just between you and me I really like the official diagram with the yellowy background form the 1990's early Noughties but I'm old-fashioned, I know!).

OK here's some that have been PM'ed to me. They show the UK network before and after the Beeching Cuts of the late 1960's. 

Despite the fact that quite a few lines had already closed by the time th first map was done (1961-ish) there's still a pretty deep penetration into the rural areas. Compare that to what was left after Beeching's axe swung by the end of that decade! 

Obviously it wasn't all sustainable - especially with all the person-power needed to fire-up and run labour-intensive steam engines - but it's a shame more of the infrastructure wasn't preserved for the future because now scores of communities are lamenting their branch closures and wishing the tracks had not been torn up and out of town shopping centers built all over the old rail routes!

What's fascinating (if a tad sad) to see here is that in the UK at least, a vast system was drastically cut back in as little a decade - well less really, it was very very swift when it happened.


So check this out. British rail UK system map from circa 1961:









Here from 1969:









And here 1987:









The good news is that in the last decade or so some of the closed lines have re-opened:










In case that's not clear enough, take a gander at this very well drawn comparison from www.bilderberg.org and another great site here showing the Beeching report itself: http://www.joyce.whitchurch.btinternet.co.uk/maps.htm (Both highly informative sites on the Beeching closures).

Here's the comparison map:









So what of your country? Is there a 'before and after' map to compare how your railways suffered in the last half of the 20th Century??


----------



## takini

K_ said:


> That's a very nice map, but a bit outdated. The "Bosnian narrow gauge" lines are still there. The new lines to Ploce and Bar have not yet been built. What year was this from?


MarkO asked for a nicely desined maps so I posted that one. The new maps just look plain and uninteresting. The map says FNR Yugoslavia which is the name used until 1963.


----------



## MarkO

takini said:


> MarkO asked for a nicely desined maps so I posted that one. The new maps just look plain and uninteresting. The map says FNR Yugoslavia which is the name used until 1963.


Yep U R right Takini, I was interested in seeing some well designed maps for sure, but I'm really happy to see any rail maps so do feel free to post ones that are not so well designed or aesthetically pleasing!


----------



## takini

Map of Bosnia & Hercegovina










Map of Serbia


----------



## zazo1

Madrid metro system 









Total railway system of Madrid (not including the comercial and statal lines), in light colors: the expansion of lines


----------



## MarkO

Hey zazo, what about some nice maps of the RENFE system, the whole of Spain?? Got any of those?

In terms of country-wide rail networks so far we've had:

Argentina
Australia
Boznia Herzagovina
Canada
China
France
Germany
Ireland
Japan
Netherlands
Russia
Serbia
Scotland
Switzerland
UK
Uganda
Ukraine
Yugoslavia

Anymore, old an new all welcome!


----------



## poshbakerloo

Another for the UK...

The local/commuter services around Manchester and Liverpool run by Northern Rail...


This is a current map btw...


----------



## zazo1

High speed map of Spain (in construction and operative), the biggest high speed rail system of the world in this year:


----------



## vselolo

here is east afrika ways


----------



## BND

Here is a big detailed one for Hungary:

http://www.mkk.zpok.hu/images/vasutterkep_n.jpg


----------



## MarkO

*MORE OLD UK*

OK here's some more that I've recently found - they were in a set of postcards I bought on ebay!

Love this one of the English Lake District and notes from some of Britains poets:









Lovely rail poster with map in background extolling the virues of Scotiish Golfing:









Another Scottish one, this time a pure rail map:









And finally here's sunny Llandudo - not so much as a rail map but a nice poster map of the town:









Not from the same postcard collection but nonetheless fascinating, this shows the location of Prudential Insurance offices superimposed on a map of UK railways - dates from about 1901:









So any attempts at beautiful pictorial maps promoting your country/region? I know there were loads made in France, Spain and Italy...what have you got stored up to show the world??


----------



## hammersklavier

The Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) in 1893. The PRR was one of the richest railroads in the world at the time, and effectively controled Pennsylvania (due to its copious bribery of the politicians).









The Pennsy's archrival, the Reading, in 1923. Note the importance of the Pocono anthracite grounds for the railroad's prosperity. When the Northeast Extension was built to Scranton, offering an alternate access to the Poconos, the Reading Railroad lost its main source of income and slowly died over the next couple of decades.


----------



## MarcVD

http://www.railtime.be/website/trainpositions.aspx?l=EN&smc=1

This is the map of the belgian passenger rail system, with the position of
all passenger trains in quasi-real time.

Cool, eh ?


----------



## MarkO

MarcVD said:


> http://www.railtime.be/website/trainpositions.aspx?l=EN&smc=1
> 
> This is the map of the belgian passenger rail system, with the position of
> all passenger trains in quasi-real time.
> 
> Cool, eh ?


Yeah that is really smart! Graphics are a bit shite but then many online maps lack the beauty of printed ones. I wonder if this is the way forward in transit mapping though - lets hope they can better mix the aesthetics of printed maps to on screen ones while adding real-time info!

Any other examples as smart as the Belgian version ^^???


----------



## convalescence

MarkO said:


> Yeah that is really smart! Graphics are a bit shite but then many online maps lack the beauty of printed ones. I wonder if this is the way forward in transit mapping though - lets hope they can better mix the aesthetics of printed maps to on screen ones while adding real-time info!
> 
> Any other examples as smart as the Belgian version ^^???


http://swisstrains.ch/


----------



## HunanChina

Nice thread!


----------



## city_thing

The Australian network as it stands today. A few of these train journeys go for days and days, crossing the continent, passing through deserts and bush.









http://www.railmaps.com.au

Victoria's V/line rail network (similar to a national railway with frequent trains connecting cities, but operating only in Victoria as our states are kinda like separate countries).









http://www.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/themes/metlink/images/v_line_services.jpg


----------



## MarkO

Nice one CityThing (b.t.w.: who is the CampOne??!! I think we should be told)

Yeah I love the maps on http://www.railmaps.com.au they are so well made. Not the official ones of course, but that guy/gal does make some very fine offering, bless 'em


----------



## K_

convalescence said:


> http://swisstrains.ch/


Swisstrains.ch unfortunately is very inprecise and out od fate, as it does not use real time info, but in stead bases train movements on a completely out of date timetable, and many trains are even shown on the wrong lines.


----------



## linkent

Old railway map of Taiwan

from : http://www.citycat.hdud.idv.tw/map1925.htm


----------



## MarkO

Post deleted because images have appeared


----------



## solchante

JoKo65 said:


> Map on wiki:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Europe


:applause:


----------



## rheintram

In Austria trains come in all colours and shapes and in fact Europe's fastest locomotive (the world record one) has a black front: Taurus 1216 050, google it.

So please don't make up any rules that don't exit.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

solchante said:


> :applause:


That map is completely outdated, infact the one you quoted is a 2008 post

Here the most updated (Dec 2009) from wiki


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ Actually some lines marked in black aren't under construction now.


----------



## gramercy

yes, its a bit optimistic...

by far the most interesting is the turkish development, their economy is screaming


----------



## hans280

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ Actually some lines marked in black aren't under construction now.


Agreed. Some of the "black lines" are in reality lines in a more-or-less advanced stage of planning. 

Moreover, there are some other little inaccuracies. In the case of France, the prolongation of LGV-Est from Baudrecourt to Strasbourg, for example, IS under construction now.


----------



## Gadiri

From *Moroccan Forum *: High-Speed Railway Networks around The World  (p6)



Ωρτimuş;62773793 said:


> http://lgv-pocl.fr/cartes-et-documents-2/





Ωρτimuş;62274527 said:


>





Ωρτimuş;62274667 said:


> HSR Lines accross Europe





Ωρτimuş;62274741 said:


>


*The figures of the last map come from : IUC * 
http://www.uic.org/IMG/pdf/20100521_a1_high_speed_lines_in_the_world.pdf



Gadiri said:


> Les données de ce graphique viennent de http://www.uic.org/IMG/pdf/20100521_a1_high_speed_lines_in_the_world.pdf
> 
> 
> *Europe *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Asie*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Reste du monde*
> 
> 
> 
> Les 680km au Maroc correspondent à Tanger-Marrakech. L'IUC inclut les voies à plus de 200km/h comme voie pour train à grande vitesse.
> 
> *Messieurs, le service TGV de 750km et selon l'UIC un service de 750km de HSL.* :cheers:


----------



## phfresno

*California High Speed Rail*


















*San Francisco Bay Area Public Transportation*









*Los Angeles Public Transportation (w/future extensions)*


----------



## EEH

The best railway map of Bulgaria I have seen. Blue - electrified, green - non-electrified, thick - double line, thin - single line


http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/maps/bulgaria/bulgaria.gif

And here is the home page with rail maps of many other countries.
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/maps.php


----------



## sotavento

sotavento said:


> ^^ Please face reality ... the "common market" is a conglomerate of various individual groups of interests ...
> 
> 
> point one - each and every train trying to cross the channel tunnel will need to comply to the rules aplied there (so no ICE3 would ever cross without large remodeling/modification) ...
> 
> point two - the "visibility" rules aply everywhere ... in the green UK it was deemed that a yellow front was the right choise ... the front of the train NEEDS to be visible ... usually they go with yellow fronts in GREENER countries and with RED fronts in places where it snows ... go figure. :cheers:
> Yellow = UK , NL , Poland , Spain(until recently it was the official color) , Portugal(EMU's+shunters) , others
> Red = Germany , Swithzerland , Austria , Portugal (locomotives+emu/dmu)
> 
> 
> So for a ICE3 train to go to the UK it will need to have a yellow front and comply to the CT security rules ... it's "doable" ... just see the Eurostar trainsets ... pure TGV trainset with yellow cab/front and security measures implemented. :nuts:
> 
> And the remaining of your rant" is complete bias ... railways aply everywhere ...
> 
> Offtopic: in every environment (except in snow) the "white" color is a high visibility choise. :cheers:


Point , set , match!!! :lol:











We got our beloved Velaro-UK ... kay::|:runaway::eek2:


----------



## poshbakerloo

sotavento said:


> Offtopic: in every environment (except in snow) the "white" color is a high visibility choise. :cheers:


White is very bad for visibility because when its cloudy it shows up darker and when its sunny its very bright and wouldn't stand out. Yellow doesn't do this. Also I don't think yellow looks bad for a train front anyway. I think it looks better than an all round single colour used and it shows where the front is better...


----------



## Maxx☢Power

Yellow fronts may be more visible, but they sure ain't more pretty.


----------



## sotavento

It will always be one (of the stupidest) point of debate this "high visibility" thing.


Some use lights and other forbid them ... some use simple balck fronts without any visibility and others demand bright and shiny collors. 

Just treat the subject with the importance it has in reality ... wich is basically ... NONE WHATSOEVER. 

:cheers:





Gadiri said:


> From *Moroccan Forum *: High-Speed Railway Networks around The World  (p6)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The figures of the last map come from : IUC *
> http://www.uic.org/IMG/pdf/20100521_a1_high_speed_lines_in_the_world.pdf


One thing that I will never understand about UIC is their total LACK of proper standards ... 


There are some 400km of upgraded routes above 200km/h wich they never list as HSR (some have no actual top limit nowadays, just the AP 220km/h value added)
They always inclued Zaragoza-Huesca wich tops at 200km/h in the spanish mileage.

:dunno:


----------



## K_

sotavento said:


> One thing that I will never understand about UIC is their total LACK of proper standards ...
> 
> 
> There are some 400km of upgraded routes above 200km/h wich they never list as HSR (some have no actual top limit nowadays, just the AP 220km/h value added)
> They always inclued Zaragoza-Huesca wich tops at 200km/h in the spanish mileage.


I think that the UIC basically only summarizes what the different railway network authorities report to them...


----------



## Maarten Otto

Maxx☢Power;67151371 said:


> Yellow fronts may be more visible, but they sure ain't more pretty.


As per Dft FOIA request, yellow fronts are NOT required on HS1, including Ashford Int. and St. Pancras Int.

The reason behind this:
Yellow fronts are required for "track worker" safety reasons.
HS1 operations has to be stopped before any maintenance can be conducted on the line. Therefore the Yellow front end rule does NOT apply to trains using HS1.


----------



## Azer_Akhundov

The Baku-Tbilisi-Kars railway is a regional rail link project to directly connect Turkey, Georgia and Azerbaijan. The project is scheduled for completion by 2012.


----------



## the_sage

Pretty decent network....


----------



## Nexis




----------



## MarkO

*NEW BOOK ON RAILWAY CARTOGRAPHY!*

It's finally ready!:banana:

The first ever collection of official railway operators maps from every country in the world running passenger services is about to be released by Viking Penguin in the US!

*RAILWAY MAPS OF THE WORLD* is a full colour 144 page delight for all fans of rail cartography, showing the evolution of mapping from the Stockton-Darlington of 1825 to China's hi-speed network of the 2020's.

It also shows surveyors plans, proposals for lines which were never constructed, posters, timetable diagrams and signal box maps.

A number of SSC posters to this and other threads have been helpful in contributing to this compendium - you know who you are and I thank you for your contributions :cheers:

They and anyone who's ever loved pouring over rail maps or even doodling their own will hopefully absolutely love this book!

Here's the front cover:








Here's a link to the publishers site:
http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9780670022656,00.html?Railway_Maps_of_the_World_Mark_Ovenden

And here to the pre-order page on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Railway-Maps-World-Mark-Ovenden/dp/0670022659

It's available in hardback in America from end of April (British edition later this year)

I'll post some sneak preview page spreads soon just for SSC-ers!

_
Please accept my apologies for the shameless self-promotion, but we authors of specialist books need to be pro-active in this way!_


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## Falubaz

Wow, yu've got the next one!
great! That would be awesome to see few samples from the book!


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## sidney_jec

The Pan India Rail Network - Official Map.


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## invincibletiger

^^ This is atleast 3 year old map.


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## Alseimik

^^ could you give a clue why?


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## sidney_jec

oh yes. the Kashmir rail link is not there on the map


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## sidney_jec

Heres the latest


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## TedStriker

sidney_jec said:


> The Pan India Rail Network - Official Map.


Note the spelling mistake on the first entry in the key!


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## sidney_jec

thats why its the official map


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## ScouseinManc

MarkO said:


> It's finally ready!:banana:
> 
> The first ever collection of official railway operators maps from every country in the world running passenger services is about to be released by Viking Penguin in the US!
> 
> *RAILWAY MAPS OF THE WORLD* is a full colour 144 page delight for all fans of rail cartography, showing the evolution of mapping from the Stockton-Darlington of 1825 to China's hi-speed network of the 2020's.
> 
> It also shows surveyors plans, proposals for lines which were never constructed, posters, timetable diagrams and signal box maps.
> 
> A number of SSC posters to this and other threads have been helpful in contributing to this compendium - you know who you are and I thank you for your contributions :cheers:
> 
> They and anyone who's ever loved pouring over rail maps or even doodling their own will hopefully absolutely love this book!
> 
> Here's the front cover:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a link to the publishers site:
> http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9780670022656,00.html?Railway_Maps_of_the_World_Mark_Ovenden
> 
> And here to the pre-order page on Amazon:
> http://www.amazon.com/Railway-Maps-World-Mark-Ovenden/dp/0670022659
> 
> It's available in hardback in America from end of April (British edition later this year)
> 
> I'll post some sneak preview page spreads soon just for SSC-ers!
> 
> _
> Please accept my apologies for the shameless self-promotion, but we authors of specialist books need to be pro-active in this way!_


Woooooooooooooooop!


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## trainrover

MarkO said:


> It's finally ready!:banana:
> 
> The first ever collection of official railway operators maps from every country in the world running passenger services is about to be released by Viking Penguin in the US!
> 
> *RAILWAY MAPS OF THE WORLD* is a full colour 144 page delight for all fans of rail cartography, showing the evolution of mapping from the Stockton-Darlington of 1825 to China's hi-speed network of the 2020's.
> 
> It also shows surveyors plans, proposals for lines which were never constructed, posters, timetable diagrams and signal box maps.
> 
> A number of SSC posters to this and other threads have been helpful in contributing to this compendium - you know who you are and I thank you for your contributions :cheers:
> 
> They and anyone who's ever loved pouring over rail maps or even doodling their own will hopefully absolutely love this book!
> 
> Here's the front cover:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a link to the publishers site:
> http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9780670022656,00.html?Railway_Maps_of_the_World_Mark_Ovenden
> 
> And here to the pre-order page on Amazon:
> http://www.amazon.com/Railway-Maps-World-Mark-Ovenden/dp/0670022659
> 
> It's available in hardback in America from end of April (British edition later this year)
> 
> I'll post some sneak preview page spreads soon just for SSC-ers!
> 
> _
> Please accept my apologies for the shameless self-promotion, but we authors of specialist books need to be pro-active in this way!_


Bravo! I thoroughly enjoyed the 1st pub


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## MarkO

*NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC*

Great start to publicity on the new book on international rail maps

http://intelligenttravel.nationalgeographic.com/2011/05/04/all-aboard-railway-maps-of-the-world/


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## MarkO

*HOW THE RAILWAYS SHAPED OUR WORLD*

Thought you map lovers might like to see this nice juxtaposition about how the railways clearly helped open up the great landmasses thanks to the transcontinental railroads!







[/url]
RMOTW launch flyer-1 by Mark Ovenden Books, on Flickr[/IMG]


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## MarkO

*WALL STREET JOURNAL on rail maps*

Nice to see the esteemed Wall Street Journal covering rail maps!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704569404576299162484453004.html#articleTabs%3Dslideshow


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## Yardmaster

^^ Looks Good!


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## arnau_Vic

^^wow


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## solchante

Spain HSR PacoPaco´s map new version may 2011:

http://mapaferrocarril.pacopaco.es/



:cheers:


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## trainrover

MarkO said:


> RMOTW launch flyer-1 by Mark Ovenden Books


The St. Lawrence Valley's far too bright lighted for its relatively few inhabitants...


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## DanielFigFoz

I wonder why they put a half of Portugal on that map of Spain but left the other half (places further from Spain) blank :lol:


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## MarkO

*RADIO PIECE ON RAIL MAPS*

National Public Radio just broadcast this fun piece on the lack of rail maps in Penn Station:
http://www.wnyc.org/articles/wnyc-news/2011/aug/15/wheres-amtrak-display-map-penn-station/


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## solchante

wikipedia map new version


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## XAN_

Still the same errors...

Moskva - Novgorod is 160 km|h.


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