# Transrapid proposes Dutch maglev train project



## Cymen (Jan 27, 2003)

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2005/11/04/afx2319234.html

*Transrapid proposes Dutch maglev train project*
_11.04.2005, 10:47 AM_

BERLIN (AFX) - Transrapid International GmbH & Co. KG said it has presented the Dutch government with proposals for a rail project linking the cities of Amsterdam, The Hague, Utrecht and Rotterdam.

Transrapid Nederland, a joint venture between Siemens AG, ABN Amro and a range of other Dutch firms presented the RandstadRapid project to the Dutch transport ministry.

The link proposed would run between Amsterdam, Schiphol airport, The Hague, Rotterdam, Utrecht, Amersfoot and Almere on tracks using magnetic levitation technology.

Transrapid is a joint venture between Siemens AG and ThyssenKrupp AG. 

Randstad: (Amsterdam -Almere -Amersfoort-Utrecht -Zoetermeer -Rotterdam -Den Haag -Leiden -Schiphol airport)









old proposed tracé:


















newly proposed: (which includes Almere, 5th dutch city)
IJmeer connection(red line) between Amsterdam and Almere


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Looks good, I bet this happens before the proposed UK maglev project gets anywhere near being built. We are always so slow hno:

http://www.500kmh.com/


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## Cymen (Jan 27, 2003)

^^
Haha, the Dutch think they are also slow, maybe that's a problem of all western countries 

But I think this proposed Maglev traject in the Ranstad can count on alot of support. I connects al major Dutch cities. Their is also a traject planned to the North but I believe thise one stands a better chance. 
We don't have big cities so we can't build alot of metro lines, like London or Paris. We need a solution, filling up the landscape with new highways is counting on less and less suppurt.(in many ways)

other proposed Dutch maglev project:


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

How long would the proposed network be and how much would the construction cost?


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## chiccoplease (Jun 26, 2003)

If YOU are slow, what about Germany? It still doesn't have a commercial Transrapid service, even though it was invented here and the (pro-Transrapid) politicians always bitch about what a shame this is. The Munich-Munich Airport connection is still being planned and it's unknown where the money should come from.


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## Basshead (Dec 2, 2002)

@Cymen, instead of Zoetermeer it's Delft and no Amersfoort at all.


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## Alargule (Feb 21, 2005)

Zeg, Starfucker, Eindhoven is nog steeds 's lands 5e stad, en niet Almere. Begrepen?!


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

chiccoplease said:


> If YOU are slow, what about Germany? It still doesn't have a commercial Transrapid service, even though it was invented here and the (pro-Transrapid) politicians always bitch about what a shame this is. The Munich-Munich Airport connection is still being planned and it's unknown where the money should come from.


Getting rid of most bureaucaucy would be the first step.


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## chiccoplease (Jun 26, 2003)

It's not the bureaucracy in this case. The problem is that small parties like the Greens are able to overrule a majority.


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## DiggerD21 (Apr 22, 2004)

chiccoplease said:


> It's not the bureaucracy in this case. The problem is that small parties like the Greens are able to overrule a majority.


NIMBYS are the biggest problem in general in this case, the most prominent is the Bismarck family (yes, the descendants of Otto von Bismarck) who doesn't allow to let the Transrapid track being built through their saxon forest.


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## Cymen (Jan 27, 2003)

Basshead said:


> @Cymen, instead of Zoetermeer it's Delft and no Amersfoort at all.


No, they changed that in their latest plans. Maybe I did forget to mention Delft though.










But you are correct on Zoetermeer!

Flash:
http://www.randstadrapid.nl/userdata/Flash/popup_map.swf


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## crazyevildude (Aug 15, 2005)

Jonesy55 said:


> Looks good, I bet this happens before the proposed UK maglev project gets anywhere near being built. We are always so slow hno:
> 
> http://www.500kmh.com/


The Uk,And probably western country as a whole, seem to be utterly terrified of new things it seems. But if the Dutch can get this done then it might increase the probability of us getting it. Although the TGV in Frances didn't help us get high-speed rail. I don't really understand the greens, they arn't willing to comprimise at all you'd think scraficing a few trees to have clean and efficient public transport would be worthwhile - but no, you can't cut down a tree now can you?
Don't get me wrong I am reasonably protective over the enviroment but I'm at least realistic enough to realise you can't be totally green all the time unless you want to go back to living in Caves  - and as much as I enjoy caving I wouldn't want to live in one .

Anyhow, I really hope this can happen, it could chance the way people in europe think about new transport concepts and hopefully lead to many other developments like it. People are afraid of change, and it takes one place to have the guts to make that change before others will dare to follow.


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## addisonwesley (Jun 19, 2005)

This is great news - MAGLEV trains EVERYWHERE. Wahahaha.


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## czm3 (Dec 4, 2004)

Hooray for the Dutch. Hopefully it will grow to cross the entire country.

Something like this in our Boston, NY, Washington corridor would be awesome, but it doesnt look like that will ever happen.


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## gronier (Mar 2, 2005)

I think this is totally possible. The Netherlands have a high population (16 million), and a very small territory, so the density of the country would make this project economically possible.


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## shenqie (Feb 1, 2005)

Is it one track or two ?


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## shenqie (Feb 1, 2005)

The illustrations only ever show a single track whereas you'd need two for an actual route.


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## Cymen (Jan 27, 2003)

^^
You mean into both directions? Offcourse it will go into both directions. Current planning/calculation says every 6 minutes a train wil depart into both directions.

Here is a model of a station:








So there is an arrival and departure platform.


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## Subangite (Sep 20, 2005)

This is GREAT!


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## scorpion (Sep 14, 2002)

go Netherlands!! 


i'd love to see this happen-- 
would be great for the country, commerce, enviro-, branding...


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Is it likely to go ahead? I don't know about other countries but in the UK it is the planning process that is the main obstacle to big infrastructure improvements like this, people can appeal and appeal and appeal against almost all aspects of the proposals and legal costs and time delays this causes mean that the costs go way higher than they should do.

Here's a resume of the UK proposal anyway:

The single route is proposed to go from London to Glasgow via Birmingham, Manchester/Liverpool, Leeds/Sheffield, Newcastle and Edinburgh stopping at major airports along the route too. Other variations have been mentioned and you can see more details at http://www.expall.com/ultraspeed.html










If it is ever built, journey times would be approximately:

London-Birmingham 30mins
Newcastle-Leeds 25mins
London-Newcastle 100mins


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## Effer (Jun 9, 2005)

I can't see this train being built anytime in the near future.


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## Cymen (Jan 27, 2003)

^^
Maybe you should go on a holiday were they will them then?


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## scorpion (Sep 14, 2002)

Cymen, do you have any specifics on dates proposed as construction, etc.??


would love to see NL nail this system down!


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

^^

There are no dates yet, these are only proposals by Transrapid. There is not even an official reaction by the government to this plan. First the government has to decide if they want this project, and second there's gona be a political battlefield for the actual route and form of the project. I expect that Transrapid will want to build it as cheap as possible, while the politics will be very aware of the impact for the environment and people living close to the line. These differences in interests will be the biggest hurdle to overcome. 

I would like to see this project to go ahead, but I am also realistic that in the current political situation it will be hard to get it through the decision making stages without large increases in costs, if the government even dares to go ahead with it.


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## Cymen (Jan 27, 2003)

^^
You are partly correct.

They are officially investigating a Maglev for the Zuiderzeeline: Amsterdam - Lelystad - Heerenveen - Drachten - Groningen (- Oldenburg - Bremen - Hamburg and Berlin). But a Maglev is just one of few options. I think this will be traditional railway or no improovement at all.

That's why I see the chances for the Randstad Maglev increasing. They won't spent money on the Zuiderzeeline thus their will be more support and momey for the Randstadline. Also the Randstadline has much profits from real estate development. Also for this line their is an "official" reaction from the government, since the minister personally recieved the plans under media attention.


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## scorpion (Sep 14, 2002)

i support your line of thinking Cymen-- curious, what exactly is the Zuiderzeeline?  is that the HSL down into Brussels/Paris, etc.? or its something else, yes?  

so much high-speed, so little time...


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## Cymen (Jan 27, 2003)

Well some good news: (no english source, not that gifted to translate  )
The main parties have agreed today that they want money availeble "fast" for 2 highspeed train traject. One will be the "Rondje Randstad/Randstadline" and the 2nd will be, which surpriced me, the "Rondje Brabant/Brabantline". Im not sure if "Rondje Brabant" will be a Maglev, will find more info later. Politics want train to ride from 2010-2020


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## julesstoop (Sep 11, 2002)

Scorpion, the Zuiderzeeline is the proposed upgrade of connection from Amsterdam to the north-east. Ultimately it could connect to a high-speed line from the north of the Netherlands to Bremen and Hamburg in Northern Germany.


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## Elmo (Feb 5, 2003)

Cymen said:


> Well some good news: (no english source, not that gifted to translate  )
> The main parties have agreed today that they want money availeble "fast" for 2 highspeed train traject. One will be the "Rondje Randstad/Randstadline" and the 2nd will be, which surpriced me, the "Rondje Brabant/Brabantline". Im not sure if "Rondje Brabant" will be a Maglev, will find more info later. Politics want train to ride from 2010-2020


No it will certainly not be a Maglev. Most likely is that excisting rail will be upgraded and trains will ride every 5 minutes, so they don't have to work with timetables anymore.


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## scorpion (Sep 14, 2002)

so maglev's still a pipe-dream, elmo?


still hoping--


still hoping for that magnetic ride above the tulip fields some sunny spring day...


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## Elmo (Feb 5, 2003)

Yes it's still a pipe-dream. Upgrading the existing railtracks seem sufficient enough for me though.


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## matthewcs (Dec 1, 2005)

Alas, this will be something that will never come to pass in Canada. At least the German's and Brits have a possibility. Canada just does not have the density to make even passenger trains worthwhile (except by Toronto). Did you know you physically cannot take a train all the way from the west to East (or viceversa)?. o well, vacation destinations then eh?


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## empersouf (Mar 19, 2004)

I hope it will come soon.


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## Bikkel (Jun 8, 2005)

Maglev may be a solution for Australia, not for inner NL trajects. It's just this consortium trying to get billions from the Transport dept. 

NL soil in the west is so muddy that this will be ghastly expensive, and what's the use with such small distances? There is a 10km HSR tunnel already near completion, a mahlev will be superfluous. NL has some 30 +100k, so public transport can't be designed to serve just a few cities, the country needs an entire network for all those towns and cities.


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## Mekky II (Oct 29, 2003)

Bikkel said:


> Maglev may be a solution for Australia, not for inner NL trajects.


If the GDP per head in Australia was 150 000 euros why not, but i hardly see Perth connected to Sydney with anything except planes... The cost of the Maglev is so high that a small population and a large territory like aussie's or canuck's one would not be economically efficient... Japan and Netherlands are much better for such projects ...


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## Bikkel (Jun 8, 2005)

2 reasons:

1 - the climate, a maglev uses up loads of energy in a colder climate > better use in say Australia, or Texas

2 - because of the extremely high speed, the maglev suits a country with isolated large cities. NL is very suburban. The 4 'big' cities altogether have only 13% of the population.

check www.ns.nl the NL railways website. Handy! Just fill in a destination and see how little time can be won with a maglev. There simply are too many busy stations along each line. To prove profitable, the NL railways have to halt at so many places.

It would be much wiser to connect NL with Belgium, France and Germany through perhaps a maglev network.


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## Mike (Sep 12, 2002)

Bikkel said:


> 1 - the climate, a maglev uses up loads of energy in a colder climate


Why is that?


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## Cymen (Jan 27, 2003)

Bikkel said:


> check www.ns.nl the NL railways website. Handy! Just fill in a destination and see how little time can be won with a maglev. There simply are too many busy stations along each line. To prove profitable, the NL railways have to halt at so many places.


That's not really true. The Dutch railways are becoming metro-like, in this point of view they will be a positive addition.
This proposel/plan includes the centralisation of public trasport towards these maglev stations and massive real estate projects. You are simply denying the positive upward spiral.


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## Bikkel (Jun 8, 2005)

Mike said:


> Why is that?


More energy needed to reach that levitating effect!


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## Bikkel (Jun 8, 2005)

Cymen said:


> That's not really true. The Dutch railways are becoming metro-like, in this point of view they will be a positive addition.
> This proposel/plan includes the centralisation of public trasport towards these maglev stations and massive real estate projects. You are simply denying the positive upward spiral.


:?
Transport needs to go where people live, work and go out. A maglev from say The Hague to Rotterdam would be plain silly, billions spent to gain what? 60 seconds? 120 seconds? In a country like NL, the maglev is a complete waste of money. Suppose we have a severe winter, no maglev will ride then ..


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## Mike (Sep 12, 2002)

Bikkel said:


> More energy needed to reach that levitating effect!


Why?


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## Bikkel (Jun 8, 2005)

Superconducting requires that!


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## Mike (Sep 12, 2002)

Superconduction happens at low temperatures. The colder the less resistence and the less energy you need.


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## Bikkel (Jun 8, 2005)

That's what I thought too but the reason for not building a Transrapid now seems to be the fact the system can come to a halt with cold. Perhaps it's the stability of critical temperature. Where are the experts?


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## urbanaturalist (Sep 25, 2005)

Another reason to love the Netherlands.....jyeah!


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## Cymen (Jan 27, 2003)

Bikkel said:


> :?
> Transport needs to go where people live, work and go out. A maglev from say The Hague to Rotterdam would be plain silly, billions spent to gain what? 60 seconds? 120 seconds? In a country like NL, the maglev is a complete waste of money. Suppose we have a severe winter, no maglev will ride then ..


Dude do some research before you start yelling:
Maglev: Amsterdam - Rotterdam 30 minutes
Conventional train: Amsterdam - Rotterdam 58 minutes

Suppose we have a severe winter?? Suppose we is a solution that makes it much more reliable then convential trains and cars during those days?

But *the* reason to build this traject is not primairly the fast trains but the centralisation of public transport and offices. That's what reduces travelling time!


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## MetroGuardian (Dec 20, 2004)

Mike said:


> Superconduction happens at low temperatures. The colder the less resistence and the less energy you need.


Why do you think they are using superconductors?


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## Bikkel (Jun 8, 2005)

Cymen said:


> Dude do some research before you start yelling:
> Maglev: Amsterdam - Rotterdam 30 minutes
> Conventional train: Amsterdam - Rotterdam 58 minutes
> 
> ...


1. Sir to you, kid.
2. You can't force people to live and work next to a maglev station. People will be very suspicious of those magnetic fields.
3. Just connecting A and R will never be profitable. Like I said, NL is a very suburban country with 87% of the population not living in AMS, RDM, The H and UTR. And the HSR tunnel is just about to be opened, there will never be a support for following on that with a maglev just a few years later.

Maglev could very well compete with airtraffic on long distance trajects but in NL there are no long distances.


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## Mike (Sep 12, 2002)

MetroGardian said:


> Why do you think they are using superconductors?


I never said that Transrapid uses superconduction.


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## Mike (Sep 12, 2002)

Bikkel said:


> That's what I thought too but the reason for not building a Transrapid now seems to be the fact the system can come to a halt with cold. Perhaps it's the stability of critical temperature. Where are the experts?


Do you have a source? I doubt that the temperatures you find in the Netherlands do affect the Transrapid. I mean, they even want to build one in Munich where it is much colder during the winter and I never heard that temperatures would be an issue. The only issue I have once heard of is if more then 10cm snow is acumulating on the track. However you can deploy special vehicles which move the snow from the track and if you have frequent traffic you actually don't need any of those since the snow will be blown away faster than it can accumulate.


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## Mike (Sep 12, 2002)

Bikkel said:


> 2. You can't force people to live and work next to a maglev station. People will be very suspicious of those magnetic fields.


The magnetic field strength is very weak (2x the earth magnetic field) since no superconducting magnets are used but ordinary ones. If at all there were some questions in the beginning how it might affect people with heart pacers inside the train. But even that has shown to be a non-issue. Outside of the train the field strength decreases disproportionally with the distance and within a few meters is weaker than the natural field of the earth.


Here's a chart showing the field strength in µTesla










Erdmagnetfeld = Earth magnetic field
Farb TV = Color TV
Haartrockner = Hair-dryer
Elektroherd = Electric stove




> Maglev could very well compete with airtraffic on long distance trajects but in NL here are no long distances.


Maglev has no chance to compete with the plane on long distances since the tracks are too expensive and the top speed is too low. It strength rather lies in its fast acceleration and uncomplicated boarding which gives it an advantage over the plane and conventional trains on short to medium distances.


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## LuckyLuke (Mar 29, 2005)

There are plans to built a Transrapid line between Amsterdam - Düsseldorf

http://www.n24.de/wirtschaft/wirtschaftspolitik/?n2005111712133000002


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## Bikkel (Jun 8, 2005)

As far as I understood, Transrapid is the 'old' maglev, there's a newer with an easier critical temperature plus one that's still in its developing stage.

This proposal for Holland and Utrecht seems like getting most out of the joint-venture of Transrapid, simply because big NL investers are involved and they want some of their money back.


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## mopc (Jan 31, 2005)

I still think the original German proposal to link Berlin, Hamburg, Munich and Frankfurt (possibly Amsterdam too) is better, then there is a better distance-population ratio for a Maglev.


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## Cymen (Jan 27, 2003)

Bikkel said:


> 1. Sir to you, kid.
> 2. You can't force people to live and work next to a maglev station. People will be very suspicious of those magnetic fields.
> 3. Just connecting A and R will never be profitable. Like I said, NL is a very suburban country with 87% of the population not living in AMS, RDM, The H and UTR. And the HSR tunnel is just about to be opened, there will never be a support for following on that with a maglev just a few years later.
> 
> Maglev could very well compete with airtraffic on long distance trajects but in NL there are no long distances.


First of all Im not a kid, 2nd you look and react like a moron. This is an international forum so excuse my poor english.

It's obvious you don't have any vision at all. The area's connected to these hubs are much larger. You only think people use the maglev if it stops in their backyard? What a joke! Big companies/offices are centralizing in the Netherlands, take the Southaxis for example. Their will work over 50.000 people in the future. These hubs van quicken the tendency of office centralisation. So it's not forcing the workers, it's by demand of the large companies!


so:
1/ regional impuls of public transport 
2/ centralisation of offices and workers homes, reducing travelling distance.
3/ 2nd worker in a family often works at the other site of the Randstad and uses a car. With centralization of office space the chance is much higher the office can be reached with an effordable travelling time in public transport.
4/ We can finally give back business parks back to nature 
5/ Newly build office spaces will have much better standerds, thus increase the workers productivity.
5/ Travelling time in public transport is not a waisted time. But that needs some investments aswell.


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## Bikkel (Jun 8, 2005)

:?
Whatever.
This Transrapid is like flogging a dead horse. Just who would want to build a Transrapid from Amsterdam to Rotterdam when the tunnel for the HSR on the very same track is about to open next year?


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## Cymen (Jan 27, 2003)

They won't serve the same frequence or purpose. You mis the whole point of a circle line. It's not about connecting Amsterdam and Rotterdam or Rotterdam and The Hague. It's about connecting all major city's and transport hubs in the circle shaped Randstand and thus connecting the rest of the Netherlands with this circle line. It's a core with a solid base that can be expanded.


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## Bob (Sep 11, 2002)

I don't think this plan makes sense because as Mr. B. points out they have just built a new high speed line duplicating one of the key bits of this route. 

I think the most suitable would be Hamburg - Berlin and then east of Berlin into Poland / Russia. This is unlikely as the German government is looking to save cash not spend more. Germanys' transport is very good already.

I'm from the UK and naturally hope the UK line will go ahead. Realistically I very much doubt it will.


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## shayan (Oct 9, 2005)

Nederland rocks Deal with it  (amersfoort de gekstuh)


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